Wednesday Volume 495 1 July 2009 No. 103

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 1 July 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; Tel: 0044 (0) 208876344; e-mail: [email protected] 283 1 JULY 2009 284

service has taken very substantial steps to improve and House of Commons to enhance accountability without legislation, and that is to be welcomed. Wednesday 1 July 2009 Dr. Tony Wright (Cannock Chase) (Lab): Should we not warmly congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock. publishing his own expenses, and also those of all top senior civil servants, and is that not an example to the PRAYERS wider public sector? Tessa Jowell: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr. (Horsham) (Con): It is a pleasure to congratulate the and the Minister of State on their appointments. We look forward to Oral Answers to Questions having many fruitful discussions both across the Dispatch Box and elsewhere. A report in May by PricewaterhouseCoopers found CABINET OFFICE that finance directors in central Government Departments do not “have a pivotal place” at the public sector “top table” and The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— “their boards have a mixed appetite for transparency in financial decisions”. Civil Service Reform In light of the crying need for greater efficiency in the face of Britain’s worsening public finances, does the 1. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): Minister agree that the status and authority of such What recent representations she has received on reform finance directors need to be raised to the same level as of the civil service. [283134] that which they enjoy in the private sector? The Minister for the Cabinet Office and for the Olympics, Tessa Jowell: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for and Paymaster General (Tessa Jowell): I have not received his kind words, and I entirely agree with his sentiment. any specific representations on civil service reform, but The value-for-money discipline that the finance director this House knows that we remain committed to ensuring ultimately oversees needs to be a cultural discipline in that the civil service is transparent and accountable and Government Departments, promoted in every possible delivers the maximum value for every public pound of way with maximum transparency. I would also draw to investment. his attention and underline, however, the success of the savings made by central Government through the civil David Taylor: For civil service reforms to have an service as a result of the Gershon review: £26 billion impact outside , we need fuller information worth of savings have been made, with plans for a about the activities of senior civil servants. The delayed further £35 billion worth of savings, in order that we publication of the 2007 hospitality lists was just a start. can continue to invest in public services as we believe Should we not, for example, place in the public domain the public wish. permanent secretaries’ diaries? Would that not help to create the sort of transparency that the public expect Mr. Maude: We are familiar with the numbers that nowadays from unelected officials, and help to refresh the Paymaster General has just read out, but we are the machinery of government as part of real constitutional slightly less convinced about their relationship with the renewal? reality of efficiencies actually delivered. Will she confirm Tessa Jowell: I know of my hon. Friend’s interest in that the now much delayed Constitutional Renewal Bill the issue, and he will know about the commitment to will include provisions that were in the draft Civil transparency in publishing all details of senior civil Service Bill, which was promised for more than a decade service hospitality and expenses. He will also know that but still has not seen the light of day in Parliament? Will the Cabinet Secretary yesterday took the first step in the Constitutional Renewal Bill contain provisions on publishing his own expenses, a move that was warmly special advisers? Given the corrosive effect of some welcomed by the chairman of the Committee on Standards special advisers on the quality and integrity of government, in Public Life. should the Bill not place a cap on their number and reassert in law that their role is to advise Ministers and Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): not to direct the civil service—or does the fact that Does the Minister believe that it is proper that when the Damian McBride is apparently still in contact with civil service code is drafted it should be scrutinised by Ministers just go to show that a change of culture Parliament as part of a Bill, rather than as secondary within Whitehall will not happen without a change of legislation? Government? Tessa Jowell: The hon. Gentleman will know that the Tessa Jowell: If the right hon. Gentleman is going to Government are committed to placing the civil service make assertions such as the one he made in relation to code on a statutory basis. That forms part of the Damian McBride, he needs to provide some evidence. Constitutional Renewal Bill that will come before the The important step the Government have taken has House. As with all these things, the challenge is to find been to publish—the Prime Minister has been absolutely legislative time, but the important point is that the civil unequivocal about this—a code for special advisers, 285 Oral Answers1 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 286 which was very recently updated to underline with John Robertson: I thank my right hon. Friend for her absolute clarity special advisers’ responsibilities. I would extensive answer and I welcome her to her post. Does just add that it is very easy to abuse special advisers as a she realise that some people, particularly those with category on the basis of the bad behaviour of a tiny economic problems and the charities that deal with minority, but in my view they greatly enhance the such problems, are encountering more difficulties than effective working of government, and that should be others? As money is being filtered into the Olympics as welcomed. well, such people are finding it very hard to make ends meet these days. What additional help can be given to Business Disruption Plans those people, particularly those who are having problems balancing their house budgets? 2. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): What steps her Department is taking as part of its civil contingencies Angela E. Smith: It was an extensive answer because responsibilities to increase the proportion of small it is an extensive package of support. The two key businesses which have a business disruption plan. things that I should point out to my hon. Friend are the [283135] £42 million-plus package, which will support in various ways those organisations facing difficulties because of The Minister for the Cabinet Office and for the Olympics, the recession, and the hardship fund. That will apply in and Paymaster General (Tessa Jowell): The Civil a number of different ways, and charities and voluntary Contingencies Act 2004 places a duty on local authorities organisations will find it very useful. In addition, to provide business continuity advice, which ensures £515 million of support is available generally from the that advice reflects local conditions at times of emergency Office of the Third Sector. All those things coming and meets local needs. To support that work, the together will provide significant help through these Government have set up a business continuity advice difficult times. line and in 2008 we published a national risk register to encourage organisations to prepare for the impact of Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): Please will the Minister business disruption. In addition, we are supporting the make an assessment of the impact, during the economic quality of that advice by the adoption of a British downturn, on charities and others of the area charging standard for business continuity. regime used by water companies? The rain tax is having a substantial impact across the country. There is not a Lorely Burt: In March, a Cabinet Office survey found charitable organisation in my constituency, be it a charity that the proportion of small businesses that had a shop, a scout group, a church or any other voluntary business continuity plan fell from 25 per cent. to only group, that is not being affected by the tax very adversely. 14 per cent. The possibility of allowing a premium discount with insurers was being considered to see Angela E. Smith: I certainly understand the point whether that would reverse the trend in respect of that the hon. Gentleman makes, because all of us, as companies that had a business disruption plan. Will the individual Members of Parliament, receive correspondence Minister say whether she agrees with that strategy and from a wide range of organisations in our constituencies. how far the Cabinet Office has got with that investigation? I understand that this matter is being examined by the regulators and that Ministers have been talking to them Tessa Jowell: It is clearly the responsibility of local in order to look into it. authorities to pursue that policy with their small businesses and through their local organisations. However, the figures to which the hon. Lady refers rightly give cause Mr. (Coventry, North-West) (Lab): for concern, and I am happy to write to her further Will my right hon. Friend find time to examine the about that matter. proposal made only a few months ago—I understand that it is still subject to detailed evaluation in her Voluntary Sector Department—for lifetime legacies to be brought into the field of charitable giving? That would make a big 3. John Robertson (, North-West) (Lab): difference at a time of very great difficulty for charities. What assessment she has made of the effects of the economic downturn on the financial viability of the Angela E. Smith: My hon. Friend makes a valuable voluntary sector; and if she will make a statement. point. I know that other countries, in particular the [283137] United States, have taken on board lifetime legacies in a significant way. I shall look into the matter, because we The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. want to ensure that charities, the voluntary sector and Smith): We recognise that there is a double challenge for the third sector as a whole can access support when they the sector during the economic downturn: not only is need it. That is one area that we can consider. there an increased demand for services, but there are concerns about financial viability. In response, we have Mr. (Ruislip-Northwood) (Con): May I devised a significant package of support for the third press the new Minister for a better answer to the question sector comprising up to £42.5 million of targeted supported, put by my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (Robert which is delivering real help now, when it is needed, and Key)? Church groups, scout groups and sports clubs the £16.7 million hardship fund announced in the Budget face crippling hikes in their water bills as a result of the in April. In addition, the sector will have a share in the proposed changes. Three months ago, I asked the previous £1.2 billion future jobs fund. That is a comprehensive Minister whether he would consider a moratorium, at package of measures. It includes support for volunteers, least until an impact assessment was carried out. He grants for small organisations and social enterprises, said that he would speak to colleagues across Government, support for jobs and loans to assist partnership working. but we have heard nothing and time is running out. In 287 Oral Answers1 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 288 welcoming the members of the new team, may I ask That is why he took the initiative, in the light of all the them what their view is? Will they consider a moratorium expenses revelations, to bring forward specific proposals. or the idea of a special social tariff, or will they continue He has made it clear that Sir Christopher Kelly’s inquiry the policy of doing nothing? is independent and that we will accept its recommendations when they are published in the autumn. However, it was Angela E. Smith: That is an interesting question from clear that the public wanted action now, and the Prime the party that privatised the water industry, which has Minister and the Government have acted on that. had a direct impact on the bills that are being seen today. After three weeks in office, I do not have a final Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): answer for the hon. Gentleman and I am sure that he Does the Paymaster General agree that it is most will understand that I want to look into the matter. We unfortunate that Sir Christopher Kelly’s inquiry, ranging understand the concerns that have been raised and we as it does across all aspects of the House, has chosen are talking to colleagues in Government and the regulators today to be in Northern Ireland, when it is Prime about the issue. Minister’s questions and the majority of Members from Northern Ireland are likely to be here? I hope that it is Natascha Engel (North-East Derbyshire) (Lab): My not a harbinger of things to come in terms of Members’ right hon. Friend will be aware that among the hardest access to the inquiry. hit by the recession are young people. How will the hardship fund in particular, and the voluntary sector in general, help young people to obtain the necessary Tessa Jowell: As Sir Christopher Kelly is skills that they need to get through the recession and chairman of that independent inquiry, he is free to find much needed jobs at the end of it? make the arrangements that he needs to make to take the views of the public in every area of the United Angela E. Smith: My hon. Friend has hit on a key Kingdom, and I am sure that we all welcome that. I am point. By volunteering or becoming involved in the sure that he will learn a lot from the feedback of the third sector, people gain skills that help them into people of Northern Ireland today. employment. For young people specifically, I would point her to the charity v, which has significant funding Mr. Jim Devine (Livingston) (Lab): Will my right from the Government and is building a database of hon. Friend, as part of this discussion about democratic volunteering opportunities for young people. Many of renewal, include the abolition of the Act of Settlement, those enable young people to gain skills that will lead which is simply legalised sectarianism and has no role in them into work. V also provides support to ensure that the 21st century? volunteering is an activity that builds new skills. Democratic Renewal Tessa Jowell: I do not think that I would be being candid with my hon. Friend were I not to say that that is not part of the provisions of the draft Constitutional 4. Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): What Renewal Bill. discussions she has had with Ministerial colleagues on co-ordination of Government policy on democratic renewal. [283139] Jenny Willott (Cardiff, Central) (LD): While I welcome the Government’s new-found desire for democratic reform, The Minister for the Cabinet Office and for the Olympics, the National Democratic Renewal Council—a closed and Paymaster General (Tessa Jowell): As the right hon. Cabinet Sub-Committee made up solely of Labour Gentleman will be aware, there have been extensive Members and therefore neither national nor democratic—is ministerial discussions about democratic renewal. The possibly the worst way to do that. Will the new ministerial Prime Minister has announced the creation of a new team reconsider that secrecy and, instead, set up a democratic renewal council to drive forward the citizens convention to ensure the widest possible public Government’s commitment to further reform. We have involvement and support? already introduced the Parliamentary Standards Bill and published our draft legislative programme, which Tessa Jowell: The National Democratic Renewal Council includes the Constitutional Renewal Bill. is part of the machinery of government, and the hon. Lady is absolutely right that the relevant Ministers and Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: The Minister mentioned the Secretaries of State sit on it. However, it is associated Prime Minister. Is she aware that he wrote two letters in with a wider, more extensive and deeper commitment to March to Sir Christopher Kelly and the Committee on engagement with the public in debating these issues Standards in Public Life, asking the committee to look than has ever been the case before. I am quite sure that into the whole question of Members’ remuneration, proper consideration will be given to the arguments not allowances and outside interests, covering what the just for a citizens commission—an argument with which Prime Minister called “the full picture”? Why then are I am familiar—but for other forms of sustained public the Government rushing through the House a Bill on engagement that will shape the conclusions of the the constitution that deals with precisely those matters consultation. before Sir Christopher Kelly’s recommendations? Is not this all about bad government and saving the Prime Charities (Economic Downturn) Minister’s political skin?

Tessa Jowell: No, the Prime Minister’s sole concern is 5. Julie Morgan (Cardiff, North) (Lab): What recent to restore public confidence in politics and the way in assessment she has made of the effects of the economic which this House and Members conduct their business. situation on the charitable sector. [283142] 289 Oral Answers1 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 290

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Angela E. Smith: I pay tribute to the RNLI for its Smith): I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave to work. In a previous life, I met its representatives on my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, North-West many occasions. This is a matter for the Treasury, but (John Robertson). The recession affects different we will draw my hon. Friend’s comments to the attention organisations in many different ways, and that is why we of Treasury Ministers—[Interruption.] have provided a significant package of support that has different elements to it—support for volunteers, grants Mr. Speaker: Order. There is quite a hubbub of for small organisations, social enterprises and support private conversations taking place, and I note that some for jobs, as well as loans to assist partnership working. of the people busily chattering away have already had the good fortune to ask a question. I hope that they will Julie Morgan: I thank the Minister for her reply. On extend a similar courtesy to others. Monday, Cancer Care Cymru, which is a local charity based in my constituency and which funds specialist Community Asset Transfers cancer nurses to work closely with people who are suffering from cancer and receiving treatment in the 6. Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) NHS, announced that it was closing because of a slump (Con): What steps her Department is taking to in fundraising. That is a terrible loss for people suffering facilitate community asset transfers. [283143] from cancer in the Cardiff area. What can we do on a The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. general level to help to stop such closures? Smith): The stronger and more sustainable third sector organisations are, the better they can help to build Angela E. Smith: My hon. Friend has raised a very stronger and more resilient communities. To that end, serious issue, which could be happening in different my Department is funding a £30 million community places, but I recommend that she looks at the different assets programme and we are working with the Big funding that is available. First, I recommend the hardship Lottery Fund to refurbish underused buildings in fund that will be in place at the end of this month. I also 38 communities across England. We are also working suggest that she looks at the package of £42 million that across Government to invest in community assets: is available to provide real help now, and she might find for example, the Department for Communities and that there is a way there to help the local community. Local Government has invested in the £70 million Support is also being given through the National Council Communitybuilders programme. for Voluntary Organisations to help organisations with things such as fundraising, because that is key for Mr. Stuart: I thank the Minister for her reply, but will things such as cancer care. She might find that there is she say what assessment she has made of the effectiveness some support there that she can talk to the NCVO of the Big Lottery Fund in administering the scheme? about, so that her charity can get some extra support with fundraising, too. Angela E. Smith: The scheme got off to a slow start because the work had to be put in place, but we now Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): Is the Minister have 38 different organisations receiving significant grants aware that the very hardest hit in the charitable sector from the Big Lottery Fund. Those grants will make a are the small charities that provide services that are real difference on the ground, and I am pleased with much valued locally and that will not be provided by how matters are now progressing. any of the statutory or larger organisations? I am Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent, North) (Lab): In my referring to small charities such as the young mental constituency, the local council wants to transfer the health charity in my constituency. What advice can she assets of community centres to the local community. give Members of Parliament and others to try to help However, is my right hon. Friend aware that the people these small charities to survive the present recession? running centres such as the Norton community centre do not want the responsibility of taking on contractual Angela E. Smith: The hon. Lady makes a significant and employment liabilities? point. It is often the smallest charities that make a real difference to people’s lives on the ground. May I direct Angela E. Smith: My hon. Friend raises an issue that her to the funding that is available through the grassroots concerns many people. When we talk about community grants? About £130 million is available that is issued asset transfers, we are talking about the Government locally. In her area, there will be a department of a third putting in money to support organisations and communities. sector organisation issuing those funds in sums of anything The will to do that has come from the communities from £5,000 to a few hundred pounds. On the ground, themselves. With community asset transfers, the liability that can make a real difference. If she has any problems, is transferred not to the community but to an asset. I ask her please to come to me, and we can direct her to Local councils must realise that the scheme is funded by the funding in her area. the Government for local communities. It must not be forced on local communities, but should be carried out Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): The Royal National with their co-operation and direction. Lifeboat Institution relies totally on donations from the public. I declare an interest as a member of its national Third Sector Funding council. One of the burdens that it faces in this recession, and has faced throughout its existence, is the VAT that 7. Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): How it has to pay on equipment and fittings. Will the Minister much funding her Department has allocated to take that matter up with colleagues in other Departments charities and the voluntary sector from the (a) to try to get some sort of exemption so that the RNLI Capacitybuilders and (b) Communitybuilders fund in can carry out its work on behalf of us all? the last 12 months. [283144] 291 Oral Answers1 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 292

The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. Smith): In the last financial year, Capacitybuilders allocated Smith): The Government have taken unprecedented over £24 million to charities and voluntary sector steps to help third sector organisations affected by all organisations. Communitybuilders was announced in aspects of the international economic crisis. We have the Department for Communities and Local Government listened to the sector, including those organisations White Paper “Communities in Control” in July 2008. affected by the Icelandic banking collapse. The packages As planned, the programme will be open for applications announced in the real help for communities fund and this summer, and its national partner will be the Adventure the more recently announced hardship fund total Capital Fund. £59 million. That clearly demonstrates our commitment to supporting the sector through difficult times. Mr. Jackson: Will the Minister say what has been made with the reform of gift aid? Mr. Hollobone: A large number of charities have had their assets frozen as a result of the Icelandic banking Angela E. Smith: The gift aid programme is making collapse. Why have the Government ignored the Treasury good progress, and it gives charities a significant amount Committee’s recommendation for compensation, and of additional money. A recent specific reform is that the will the Government consider establishing a short-term profits generated when goods given to charity shops are Treasury loan fund to help out sound charities facing sold can be donated as gift aid to the organisations genuine hardship? [Interruption.] involved. There is further work to be done with gift aid, and I understand that the Treasury is looking at it at the Mr. Speaker: Order. Can we have a bit of hush, so moment, in consultation with Ministers. that we can hear the Minister’s reply?

Grassroots Grants Angela E. Smith: The Government are doing an enormous, unprecedented amount to help charities and voluntary sector organisations that are facing difficulties 8. Mr. Anthony Steen (Totnes) (Con): What criteria in the recession. The hon. Gentleman outlined the her Department uses to allocate Grassroots grants to situation facing one group of organisations. I have to local community organisations. [283145] say to him that it would be difficult to single out one particular organisation or reason. The hardship fund The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Angela E. that is in place, which is real help now, is a greater Smith): The grassroots grants scheme is worth £130 million package than has ever been in place to help charities and provides small grants and endowments for local through difficult times. It has never been matched by community groups. The beauty of the programme is any previous Government. that local communities make the funding decisions, based on local priorities. So far, almost 10,000 grants Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): have been awarded, to the benefit of many organisations Will my right hon. Friend congratulate the beloved that had not benefited before. The only criteria set by Christie cancer hospital in Manchester on its successful the Government are that the recipients are bona fide campaign to obtain a refund of charity money lost third sector organisations with an income below £30,000. following the collapse of an Icelandic bank? Will she They must also meet the needs of the local community thank the Government for arranging that refund, and and be driven by committed local volunteers. will she congratulate Lord Bradley on heading that successful campaign? Mr. Steen: The number of children trafficked into Britain is increasing. The cannot cope, and local Angela E. Smith: Everyone is always pleased—indeed, authorities are finding that the children abscond from the Prime Minister has said so himself—when organisations their homes. Why will the Government not support that are in difficulties gain support. The refund was a local, voluntary and community groups more, as they local decision, taken by the NHS North West, responding can provide guardianship, legal advice and support for to a local need. We are all very pleased to see Christie children in distress? I hope that the Minister does not getting the support that it deserves. mention the POPPY project, as that deals only with adults. Why are the Government not supporting voluntary and community effort more, when the public sector is failing? PRIME MINISTER

Angela E. Smith: I am not aware of any applications under the grassroots fund for the sort of organisations The Prime Minister was asked— that the hon. Gentleman has referred to. However, the Engagements money in the grassroots fund has been well received, and we will be happy to look at applications from any organisation. Q1. [283119] Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 1 July.

Charities (Economic Downturn) The Prime Minister (Mr. ): With your permission, Mr. Speaker, the whole House will wish to 9. Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What join me in welcoming today Her Majesty the Queen’s steps the Government have taken to assist charities that approval for a new form of recognition for the families have been affected by the failure of Icelandic banks; of those members of the armed forces killed on operations and if she will make a statement. [283146] and as a result of terrorism. Her Majesty will be making 293 Oral Answers1 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 294 an announcement today, directly to the families of Last week, it was demonstrated for everyone to see armed forces personnel, in which she will make clear that capital spending under Labour will be cut. Now I her personal attachment to the new recognition. I am want to turn to total spending. Does the Prime Minister confident that that will be a very special and fitting accept that his own figures show that once the Treasury’s tribute indeed to the great debt that we owe to all those forecast for inflation is taken into account, total spending who die on operations, and to the enduring loss shouldered will be cut after 2011? by their families. This morning I met ministerial colleagues and others. The Prime Minister: No, total spending will continue I shall have further such meetings later today. to rise, and it will be a zero per cent. rise in 2013-14. In 2011-12 and 2012-13, it will continue to rise—[Interruption.] Bob Spink: Our armed forces are the bravest and the best in the world, and in the armed forces day celebrations Mr. Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister’s answer on Saturday the people showed how much they love and must be heard. respect them. Mr. Cameron: I think that that answer gets zero per May I ask the Prime Minister about swine flu? A cent. The Prime Minister said very clearly no, it will rise, number of people in Castle Point—adults and children— so can he explain a copy of a Treasury presentation that have tested positive, and the local campaigning newspaper, was given to us? On page 7, there are headings for the Echo, is keen to reassure people that progress is current spending and capital spending, and the headline being made. What will he do next to tackle the problem? says very clearly: “Reduction in medium-term spending”. The Prime Minister: I share with the hon. Gentleman May I ask the Prime Minister, if even the Treasury is the respect that he has stated for our armed forces, and giving presentations around the country saying that for the armed forces day on Saturday, when thousands public spending as a total is being cut, why cannot he of people in all parts of the country wanted to give admit to the truth? recognition—deserved recognition—to the work that our armed forces do every day. The Prime Minister: I have told the right hon. Gentleman The hon. Gentleman raises the question of swine flu. previously that current spending is going to rise, and He may know that we have had an emergency meeting that capital spending, as I explained last week, will fall of the Cobra group—the civil contingencies secretariat— after 2011. These are the public spending projections today to look at the incidence of the disease. I have to for the future, but I have to tell him that the debate report to the House that the total number of confirmed about public spending is about how we return to growth cases for the UK now stands at 6,538. That compares and jobs in the economy. The reason we have advanced with just 2,236 last week. That large rise in numbers of spending to 2009-10 is so that we can spend to get out of confirmed cases means that a more flexible and local recession. We put forward proposals for homes and approach will be used in areas where there are higher jobs, and for more money in 2009-10. The Opposition numbers of cases reported. The Health Protection Agency, have rejected this expenditure. We have put forward in conjunction with the NHS, is doing excellent work to proposals for expenditure in 2010-11—increasing limit the spread of the virus. We continue to monitor expenditure, and the Opposition have rejected that. the situation closely, making sure that arrangements are The capital spending that we have advanced to 2009-10 in place so that the UK remains well placed to deal with and 2010-11 is therefore not available after 2011. This is the pandemic. We will adapt those arrangements as the precisely the way in which a Government will act to take situation changes, and my right hon. Friend the Health the country out of recession, and I must therefore ask Secretary will make a statement to this House tomorrow the right hon. Gentleman why—[Interruption.] Oh yes. on the outcome of our deliberations. His shadow Chancellor should explain why he was going into television studios yesterday saying that he Mr. Jim McGovern (Dundee, West) (Lab): I welcome was going to cut schools now, cut now, cut what the Prime Minister said about the armed forces. the September guarantee for school leavers now, and do My grandfather, Hugh MacDonald, served in the Black nothing about unemployment. That is surely the issue: Watch during the second world war. He is buried in the we cannot get out of recession unless we spend now on Black Watch section of the military cemetery in Gibraltar. the services that we need. The House will excuse me for using Scottish vernacular, but I fear that he might be birling in his grave at the Mr. Cameron: Today we see a Prime Minister in full thought that the famous red hackle of the Black Watch retreat. In the first answer, he says that we are going to may be no more. What assurances can the Prime Minister get a zero per cent. increase in public spending—that is give, not only to me but to serving personnel and a new one. In the second answer, he finally admits that veterans, whom I met on Saturday, that the Black he is going to cut, and cut deeply, capital spending. He Watch red hackle will remain the symbol of the Black talks about the debate about public spending: the debate Watch? is about whether the Prime Minister can be straight with the British public. Let me ask him again. He stood The Prime Minister: I, too, met Black Watch servicemen at the Dispatch Box, and talked about total spending on Saturday and people who have contributed greatly to year after year—that is the figure that people are interested our armed forces. I can assure my hon. Friend that the in. As the Treasury itself says, when it comes to total tradition that he talks about will be maintained as long spending, there is a reduction, not a freeze, in medium-term as the Army exists. spending—I am glad that the Prime Minister is talking Mr. (Witney) (Con): I welcome what to the Chancellor for the first time in weeks—and given the Prime Minister said, and I agree with him about the that it is talking about a cut, will the Prime Minister Queen’s new recognition for our armed forces—we should stand there, give a straight answer and say that once we all be incredibly proud of what they do on our behalf. allow for inflation, total spending is being cut? 295 Oral Answers1 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 296

The Prime Minister: I have already said that current he could have given him a bit of tuition. There is only expenditure will rise, and continue to rise. Capital spending one person who we want to add to the unemployment will rise until 2011, then it will fall. I have already made register, and that is this Prime Minister. I asked a simple it clear that for health, education and for all these public and straightforward question. Perhaps he could now services, current spending will continue to rise. The answer it. has said that there will not issue is surely this: in 2009-10, we are raising spending be a spending review before the election. Can the Prime substantially. We are doing so in 2010-11, and we are Minister tell us—will there be one or not? doing it to take us out of recession. There is only one serious party in the world that is trying to tell us that we The Prime Minister: It would be wrong to have a should cut spending now—the Conservative party. The spending review now, at this stage—[HON.MEMBERS: right hon. Gentleman must therefore admit that under “Why?”] Because we are in the midst of a recession and his proposals, schools would lose money now, teachers it is not possible to say what unemployment, growth would be made unemployed, Sure Start services would and all the characteristics that the right hon. Gentleman go, child care services would be at risk, and no teenager has been referring to are likely to be in 2012, 2013 and would get a guarantee for jobs. That is the future if the 2014. We have got to the heart of the Conservative Conservatives were ever to implement it. position today. They are the party of unemployment. They are premising all their spending plans on Mr. Cameron: Complete nonsense. Nobody— unemployment continuing to rise. He said himself that [Interruption.] It is interesting that not even the Prime unemployment will keep on rising. If that is the basis of Minister’s own Cabinet now backs the ludicrous line their spending plans, people can look forward, under a that he is taking about public spending. He keeps talking Conservative Government, not just to 10 per cent. cuts, about this 10 per cent. I do not know whether he but to rising unemployment. Why do they want these realises how much damage it is doing to him. It is not public spending cuts? To pay for inheritance tax cuts for doing any damage to us. Let us explain where the deceit the very rich. We see once again that they are the party about the 10 per cent. comes from. Let me explain to of the few, and we are the party of the many. the House—[Interruption.] Mr. Cameron: I know the walls of the bunker are Mr. Speaker: Order. The Leader of the Opposition thick, but the Prime Minister seems completely unaware must be heard. that unemployment is rising across the country because of the policies of his Government. We have seen hundreds Mr. Cameron: If we take the Government’s own of people lose their jobs at Diageo in Scotland—another spending plans, take off debt interest and take off the tragic case—yet the Prime Minister seems blissfully increase for unemployment, which, sadly, will go up, we unaware of what is going on in the country that he is are left with a 7 per cent. cut in every Department—the meant to be governing. Everyone will conclude that the Government’s own figures. If we exempt the NHS, we Government will not have a spending review because get a 10 per cent. cut—the Government’s own figures. If they do not want to own up to the cuts that they are we take out—[Interruption.] Thank you, Schools Secretary. planning in Department after Department. The truth is If we listen to the Schools Secretary and take out health that this Government are planning to cut capital spending: and schools, we get a 13½ per cent. cut. That is the fact. They are planning to cut total spending: fact. The Prime Minister: Mr. 13½ per cent.—his own figures. Let most important fact of all is that they are incapable of us see if he can answer the simplest of questions. Is he being straight with the British people. going to have a full departmental spending review before the election—yes or no? The Prime Minister: This Opposition would cut public spending this year and deprive people of help with The Prime Minister: The first thing that the right unemployment and housing. This Opposition party hon. Gentleman said was that unemployment is going would cut public spending next year, and cut it savagely to continue to go up. That is the Conservative policy. It in schools, in education and even in the Sure Start is a prediction. That is when they say that unemployment programme. We now know the truth about the is a price worth paying. Is he basing his assumptions on Conservatives’ assumptions about the future: they unemployment rising to 2014? No wonder he wants to assume that unemployment will continue to rise, as the cut public services. He is basing his assumptions on right hon. Gentleman said, until 2014. That is not the unemployment continuing to rise, because he will do policy of this Government; we want to get people back absolutely nothing about it. We have taken action that is into work. preserving 500,000 jobs. A quarter of a million people are leaving the unemployment register every month. We Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): Does the put in extra money on Monday so that there is more for second franchise fiasco on the east coast main line in young people who are unemployed and for summer two years not tell us that the Tory rail privatisation school leavers. We will not forecast our spending plans experiment has finally hit the buffers? Now that we are on unemployment being higher in 2014 and rising every taking the east coast main line back into public ownership, year, but if that is what the right hon. Gentleman wants can we keep it that way? to do, he cannot afford public services. Therefore the truth is that he will be cutting public services by 10 per The Prime Minister: Our first and overriding obligation cent. is to ensure continuity of service to the passengers, and that there is no disruption of services, so the Secretary Mr. Cameron: I have to say that this is one of the of State for Transport is establishing a publicly owned most feeble performances that I have ever seen from the company, the East Coast Main Line company. It will Prime Minister. If Peter Mandelson had not been so take over all franchised rail services at the point that busy wandering round the television studios this morning, National Express East Coast ceases to operate, and 297 Oral Answers1 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 298 existing staff and assets will transfer to the new company. We are in talks with Corus, we have provided extra We are making sure that the service continues to run, money in the past week for help to secure jobs and we that passengers continue to be served and that jobs will continue to talk with it about what more we can do. continue to exist. We are also in negotiations with Corus about its relationship with a conglomerate of steel producers. That contract Mr. Nick Clegg (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): I first join has broken down; it puts jobs in Britain at risk; and we in welcoming the announcement from Her Majesty are trying to do what we can to ensure the agreement of today for such a fitting tribute to recognise the bravery a new arrangement that can protect more jobs in Britain. and sacrifices of our armed forces. This afternoon we have seen the bogus debate about Q2. [283120] Mr. David Gauke (South-West Hertfordshire) public spending hit new lows. I am almost tempted to (Con): The Prime Minister has twice told the House suggest that Lord Mandelson and the Conservative today that capital spending will continue to rise until economic spokesman go on another cruise together to 2011. The Red Book shows that capital spending is at make up. The real failing is that the Conservative party £44 billion this year and will be at £36 billion next year. leader wants to cut spending when the economy is still I am sure that the Prime Minister understands that that on its knees, which is economic madness, and he will means a cut, starting next year. Will he correct the not tell us how; and the Prime Minister is still living in record now? complete denial about the long-term savings that will be needed when the economy starts to recover. Are they The Prime Minister: As I have already explained to not both deliberately choosing to trade insults so that the House, we are bringing forward investment, previously they can both avoid telling the truth? allocated for later years, to 2009-10 and 2010-11. The reason why we are doing so is that we can help get the The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman does economy out of the recession. The capital investment not tell us what his policy is at all. The fact of the matter would not be supported by the Conservative party. As a is that if spending were cut this year, jobs would be lost result, projects such as housing, in which we are investing and services would be put at risk; and if spending were from this Monday, as we have announced, could not go cut next year, jobs would be lost and services would be ahead. I have already explained to the House that while at risk. We are determined to ensure that spending the previous Budget announced that there was a rise in remains in order to increase job opportunities and to capital expenditure over a period of time, more money protect home owners, and to make sure that our public has been reallocated to the first years so that we can services are in place. I hope that he will join our side of help ourselves out of recession. the debate in protecting public services for the future. Mr. Eric Martlew (Carlisle) (Lab): There has been a Mr. Clegg: What the Prime Minister is avoiding once great deal of talk about the modernisation of the House, again is the fact that difficult choices on long-term but I would like to ask the Prime Minister whether we spending need to be made now if we are going to get could go back in time—to when we had Prime Minister’s any grip on the country’s finances. That is why we Question Time twice a week, on Tuesdays and Thursdays. should admit that we neither need nor can afford to There would be much more accountability to Back replace Trident. He is planning to sign the first contracts Benchers, the questions would be more topical and the for the new Trident submarines this summer, during the Chamber would be much better attended on Thursdays. recess when we are all away. Is it not obvious that he should not do that? The Prime Minister: That is an idea on which Mr. Speaker may wish to consult. The Prime Minister: We have already announced a deficit-reduction plan for the next five years. We have Q3. [283121] Simon Hughes (North Southwark and taken difficult decisions about efficiency savings and Bermondsey) (LD): As more than 1 million of our asset sales, and about raising the top rate of tax: about young people leave education this summer, the measures that ensure that people who are in a position Government’s rediscovered commitment to training to pay more do pay more in the tax system—that is, at and apprenticeships is very welcome. However, it the top rate of tax. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman appears that many of the training schemes on offer will support those measures, which are designed both to cannot be completed in the time that the Government reduce the deficit and to ensure that there are sufficient have announced. Will the Prime Minister meet a group resources for public services. I have already made my of us to make sure that we do not consign our young position on Trident clear—in the debate on Monday. people to unemployment or to a failure to gain the qualifications that they need? Ms Angela C. Smith (Sheffield, Hillsborough) (Lab): Last week Corus announced 379 job losses in the The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman should steelworking town of Stocksbridge in my constituency—job know, in 1997 there were 70,000 apprenticeships in losses that will have a devastating impact on the economy Britain; this year, there are 225,000—three times as of a town with a population of only 13,500. Will my many. To say that we have reduced the number of right hon. Friend make a commitment to do whatever apprenticeships, or that we are not taking the issue he can to ensure that Corus can secure a long-term seriously, is wrong. As far as training programmes are future for steelworking in places such as Stocksbridge? concerned, on Monday we announced how we would do more for summer school leavers and for young The Prime Minister: Corus employs more than 20,000 people under 25. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will people in this country, and wherever there are redundancies support the new investment that we have made into it is a matter of sadness and regret. We are dealing with those measures. They cost money; I hope that his party a fall in demand in the steel industry throughout the is prepared to support them, even if the Conservative world, and it is affecting Britain and every other country. party is not. 299 Oral Answers1 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 300

Q4. [283122] Mr. Neil Turner (Wigan) (Lab): This The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady will know that Labour Government have made a lot of progress the Health Secretary will make a statement tomorrow in tackling disadvantaged communities, such as on the issue of swine flu. We will make sure that at all Pemberton, Scholes and Beech Hill in my constituency, points we are vigilant in ensuring that the treatment of through the neighbourhood renewal fund. However, that disease in every part of the country is right and local authorities and primary care trusts are hampered proper. from building on that success because they do not get the money that the Government formula tells them Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): they are entitled to. Will my right hon. Friend meet me, My right hon. Friend may have seen today’s announcement and other colleagues with similar constituencies, to see by Diageo on the restructuring of jobs in Scotland, to whether we can find ways to tackle the problem? which the Leader of the Opposition referred. It was mixed news, with 500 job losses over two years but also The Prime Minister: I understand that Wigan will £100 million of investment, including in my constituency. receive more than £21 million between 2008-09 and Will my right hon. Friend do everything he can to 2010-11 as an additional resource to help tackle problems negate the loss of these jobs, and will he agree to meet faced by local people. Of course I am happy to meet my the company to discuss its continued plans for investment hon. Friend to talk about both the neighbourhood in Scotland? renewal fund and some other aspects of central funding to local authorities, but I do say that in the past few The Prime Minister: Where there is unemployment, years we have increased those resources substantially. we are ready to help. The measures that we announced Where there is unemployment, we will be increasing on Monday will move in to help young people, but also resources to help people get back to work. adults who are losing their jobs. It is possible for firms making capital investment to get new capital allowances Q5. [283123] Mark Simmonds (Boston and Skegness) which were introduced in the Budget to stimulate new (Con): In the light of recent cuts of £3.9 billion in investment. We are seeking an investment-led recovery. Department of Health funding, as announced in the The capital spending that we have reallocated to 2008-09 Budget, will the Prime Minister confirm what further and 2009-10, while it falls in 2010-11, is vital to doing reductions in health expenditure his Government are that. We will continue to back private investment in our planning for between 2011 and 2014? country, and these are the figures that I want to make clear to the House. The Prime Minister: We are raising expenditure on the health service this year and next year. The hon. Gentleman should know perfectly well that we have Q7. [283125] Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): done so against the advice of the Conservative party, As chair of the all-party Baha’i group, I have become which would prefer to see—[Interruption.] If we had deeply concerned about the seven Baha’i leaders in Iran not taken the decision to raise national insurance to put facing trial by the revolutionary court on 11 July on investment in the , we could not serious but unsubstantiated charges, with no evidence have had the 90,000 extra nurses, the 20,000 extra being offered against them. Will the Prime Minister be doctors and the new hospitals. That decision was opposed willing to meet me and representatives of the Baha’i by the Conservative party. faith in Britain to underline his and, I hope, our collective support for the fundamental principles of Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): In a few fairness and tolerance in the treatment of these and all days’ time, the newly elected European Parliament sits Baha’i in Iran? for the first time. Can the Prime Minister assure me that Labour MEPs will not sit with Polish MEPs who are The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman raises very homophobic and of an anti-Semitic orientation, with difficult issues. I am sure that the whole House will Czech MEPs who believe that global warming is a share my deep disappointment at the recent behaviour myth, or with Dutch MEPs who think that abortion of the Iranian regime: disappointment at the manner in should be abolished and that Sunday shopping should which legitimate demonstrations have been suppressed; stop? Which party does support those loonies and disappointment at the restrictions that he has mentioned weirdos? on the freedoms of the Iranian people, with people due to stand before a closed court on 11 July; and The Prime Minister: It took the Leader of the Opposition disappointment that the Iranian Government have expelled almost a year to admit that there was a recession all two of our diplomats and detained several of our over Europe. Now that he has had to admit it, perhaps embassy staff. This action is unjustified and unacceptable. he should also admit that there is a need for co-operation Some people in Iran are seeking to use Britain as an all over Europe to deal with these issues. What I think explanation for the legitimate Iranian voices calling for people will find very sad is a Conservative party now on greater openness and democracy.However, we will continue, the fringes of Europe with some of the extreme parties with our international partners, to raise our concerns on the right wing of the European political family. with Iran, including on the issue that the hon. Gentleman raised. Q6. [283124] Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): News of tomorrow’s statement is welcome, but if the Mrs. Linda Riordan (Halifax) (Lab/Co-op): Following swine flu pandemic worsens sufficiently to trigger job cuts announced by Lloyds, will the Prime Minister changes in the Government’s approach during the assure banking staff in my constituency that he will do 82-day summer recess, would the Prime Minister recall all he can to protect their jobs? Will he join me in Parliament so that there could be proper scrutiny of sending a clear message to Lloyds Banking Group that the Government’s actions? further job losses would be totally unacceptable? 301 Oral Answers1 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 302

The Prime Minister: I have visited the area and talked training and skills? [Interruption.] Will he reaffirm his to staff, and I understand their frustrations at what is September guarantee of a place in education and happening. They have served the bank well, and they training for all 16 and 17-year-olds? are the victims of what has happened to HBOS in its worldwide activities, particularly its failures in other The Prime Minister: I do not know why the Opposition countries. We will do what we can to help the staff of mock this. Giving a guarantee for school leavers to get a HBOS and Lloyds TSB. We are also making it possible school place, a college place, an apprenticeship or work for people to have new facilities to find jobs in the area. experience—some form of activity that prevents them We will do what we can to reduce unemployment in from being unemployed—has never been done before. these difficult circumstances; that is why we have set That costs money, and we are prepared to spend that aside £5 billion to help the unemployed, which is only money. The Opposition party would refuse that money. possible because we have made these additional allocations. In other words, thousands would be unemployed as a result of the Opposition’s policy. Q8. [283126] Mr. Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): Another opportunity for the Prime Minister to be Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswold) (Con): Is the straight with the British people: in which Departments Prime Minister aware that some of the finest residential does he expect to see spending fall between 2011 and training for severely disabled people has been put in 2014? jeopardy by the decision this week of the Learning and Skills Council not to fund the expansion of the National Star college in my constituency? Would he agree to meet The Prime Minister: Being straight with the British a delegation of some of the disabled students, some of people means talking about how we get out of recession the principals of the college and myself, to discuss the and how we build for growth. It is not much good the unique situation of that college and see whether there is Opposition’s talking about 2011 when they are cutting a solution to this problem? spending in 2009-10 and 2010-11. Throughout this debate, they have refused to support the action we are taking on The Prime Minister: We have set aside £2.3 billion for jobs. They have no plan to come out of recession, they investment in further education colleges over this spending have no plan for jobs, and they have no plan for growth review period. We put an additional £300 million into in the economy: they have nothing to offer the British that in the Budget. I will ask—[Interruption.] This electorate but cheap gibes and no policy. comes under expenditure on colleges, and it needs money that would have to be provided by the Government. I Q10. [283128] Mr. Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) am saying to the hon. Gentleman that I shall get the (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend believe that to build further education colleges Minister to meet him about Britain’s future we need to invest now in helping people this, but we have put £300 million extra into the investment through the downturn, and especially in young people’s in capital buildings as a result of the Budget. 303 1 JULY 2009 Points of Order 304

Points of Order Mr. Speaker: Something tells me that the hon. Gentleman is seeking to entice me into a political debate, and I 12.31 pm must resist his blandishments. That is not a point of order. Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We have learned overnight that two of the Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): Further to the earlier UK’s three shipyards may close in the years ahead. point of order, Mr. Speaker. It cannot be right for a Given that that would cause thousands of job losses on major statement on the future of our railways to be the Clyde or at Portsmouth, have you heard from the made by a Secretary of State who is absent from this Ministry of Defence whether it is going to make a House. I was grateful for your advice last week, and I statement to this House or leave the Chamber without have written to the Procedure Committee. However, telling Members of Parliament what the future holds would not it be far preferable for such statements to be for shipyard workers in this country? made to this House? Is it not a nonsensical convention that the statement has to be made in the House of Mr. Speaker: I fear that is not a point of order, but I Lords first? Should it not be made at 12.30 in this am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for placing his views House, rather than waiting for the Lords to assemble firmly on the record. The answer to his question is that I further up the Corridor? have not had any indication from a Minister of an intention to make a statement, but, as I said, he has Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is largely repeating taken his opportunity to place his concerns on the what has already been said. I note his point, but I do not record. think that there is anything on which I can rule at this time. Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The previous Prime Minister, Sir Alan Beith: Further to that point of order, , would regularly meet Back Benchers from Mr. Speaker. We were told in a debate in Westminster both sides of the House. Why does not the current Hall this morning about rail services that the Minister Prime Minister extend the same courtesy to us? was not in a position to answer questions about what has happened to the National Express franchise because Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of order. of the statement to be made in the , which would be repeated in the House of Commons. Is Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, South-West) (Lab/Co-op): there any reason for delaying that statement until 7 o’clock On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it in order for me to tonight? I presume that it will be made in the House of raise the fact that the real threat to the future of the Lords at 3.30 and could be made much earlier in the shipyards on the Clyde is the separation of Scotland Commons. from the United Kingdom? Mr. Speaker: We have programmed business to consider, Mr. Speaker: That is a debating point but not a point so when the right hon. Gentleman asks whether there is of order, as the hon. Gentleman perfectly well knows. any particular reason for not making the statement now, I have given him that reason. Hon. Members may Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): On a like or dislike it, but that is the reason. point of order, Mr. Speaker. I seek your guidance. Do you think it appropriate and acceptable that the major Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): On decision to renationalise the east coast main line should a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Last week, you promised have been announced on the media this morning, and the House that you would rebuke Ministers if they that this House will not have the opportunity to question made announcements outside before making them in the Secretary of State directly? Indeed, we will not even the House. On the “Today” programme this morning, I be the first to hear the statement. Do you think that that heard Lord Adonis announcing the nationalisation of shows calculated disdain for the authority of this House? the east coast railway a good 11 or 12 hours before the House will be told about it. What, Sir, can you do about Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Further that? to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: My understanding is that the Secretary Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Peterborough of State was commenting on commercial announcements (Mr. Jackson) has raised a point of order, and I am sure that had already been made, so I am not sure whether that the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed the burden of the hon. Gentleman’s charge can be (Sir Alan Beith) will want to hear the reply. sustained. My understanding is that there is to be a statement at 7 o’clock this evening. As to the choice of Ministers to Mr. (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): head Departments and the particular House of Parliament On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The Prime Minister in which they sit, as the hon. Gentleman will know, that and the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and is not a matter for me. Families visited a school in my constituency yesterday without informing me. I went anyway and was met by John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): On a an abusive and unprofessional civil servant called Belshan point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it right that a political Izzet, who told me that the constituency Member of party should misuse an unfounded allegation about Parliament had been informed of the visit—that was a shipyards, when the company and the Ministry of Defence lie—and that neither I nor the leader of the council nor refute the allegations that are being made? It always one of the governors were allowed in during the prime seems to happen—every six months, people use those ministerial visit. That is disgraceful behaviour by a civil allegations for their own political purposes. servant. How can we ensure that it is not repeated and 305 Points of Order1 JULY 2009 Points of Order 306

[Mr. Greg Hands] although I do not worry about that, because every time they appear, the Tory vote goes down. that the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families abide by the conventions Mr. Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the right hon. and courtesies of the House, which you set? Gentleman, who is continuing the debate, although I am not sure that he is doing so by a point of order. Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is a regular user of the device of the point of order, which he is perfectly Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con) rose— entitled to use. Of course, the normal courtesies should Mr. Speaker: I hope that we are going to make some be observed, be it by Back Benchers or members of the progress, as we have a great deal of business to consider, Government. Members who go into other Members’ but the proceedings would not be complete without a constituencies should give prior notification. They do point of order from Mr. Peter Bone. not have to ask permission, but they should inform. However, I say in all candour and courtesy to the hon. Mr. Bone: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. A Gentleman that it would be a bad precedent if Members number of clauses of the Parliamentary Standards Bill started naming civil servants on the Floor of the House. were left undebated in Committee yesterday. I have I do not like it and I hope that we will not have a listened to your pronouncements on transparency and repetition of it. the power of Back Benchers to cross-examine the Executive, but what happened yesterday was wholly unacceptable. Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): I therefore wonder what advice you could give a Back Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Ministers Bencher to determine this matter. appear routinely to visit hon. Members’ constituencies without informing them, and your predecessor spoke Mr. Speaker: There will be further opportunity to out as strongly as you have today, asking them to debate some of those matters on Report. I have seen the observe the courtesies. However, they are not observing sheer weight of amendments to the Bill and I am not them, so what action can be taken to ensure that they insensitive to the point that there is a need for substantial do so in future? time to debate them. However, at this stage I can say to the hon. Gentleman only that everything has been done Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman, as is perhaps his in a perfectly orderly way, and in any event, Rome was wont, asks a hypothetical question and engages in some not built in a day. star-gazing. The convention of notification must be observed. In the event of a pattern of its not being Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): On a point of order, observed, I would not let the matter rest there. Mr. Speaker. With respect to the Parliamentary Standards Bill this afternoon, could you give us some guidance as Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford to how you will approach the question of amendments Green) (Con): Further to the point of order of my hon. that may be moved on Report, given that, as you have Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick said, very weighty questions arise—for example, on new Cormack), Mr. Speaker. You said that you thought that clauses 7 and 8, which may not be reached, because new the Minister on the “Today” programme did not refer clauses are taken at the beginning on Report—and specifically to the action to be taken about the company. could you therefore also say whether you would be kind I listened to the programme, and he made it clear and enough to consider those questions before Report? explicit that the Government would take over the responsibilities for that company. It seems to me that he Mr. Speaker: I will consider those questions when I went beyond what was acceptable in an interview and am aware of all the amendments that are before us, but made a statement on air. I do not wish to be pedantic, it would be unwise and precipitate for me to do so at but that may give you cause to think a little more about this stage. If there are no further points of order, we can your response to the Government. move on.

Mr. Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman makes a very BILL PRESENTED fair point. He had the advantage of hearing the interview SUSTAINABLE ENERGY (LOCAL PLANS)BILL and I confess that I did not. What he has put to me is reasonable. I do not know whether the line was crossed, Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) but the fairest thing that I can say on the strength of the Alan Simpson, supported by Mr. , right hon. Gentleman’s comments is that I will look into Mr. Gordon Prentice, Andrew Stunell, Mr. David Amess, the matter and come back about it. Mr. Andrew Dismore, David Howarth, Mark Durkan, Andrew George, Mr. David Drew, Bob Russell and Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): On a point Steve Webb, presented a Bill to promote energy efficiency; of order, Mr. Speaker. Last week I spoke to the Fabian to require specified bodies to publish sustainable energy Society in Chiswick and Sheffield, and I would like to plans; to make provision for the transfer of functions to apologise for not informing the hon. Members whose principal councils; and for connected purposes. constituencies I was in. However, senior Conservatives Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on regularly come to my constituency and do not tell me, Friday 16 October, and to be printed (Bill 125). 307 1 JULY 2009 Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) 308

Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) I have met this mother and I can assure the House that, Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order every week, she has to live with what happened—week-in, No. 23) week-out; year-in, year-out. Her view is that education is the key to changing attitudes towards dog ownership. 12.42 pm Dogs need to be properly trained and owners need to Ms Angela C. Smith (Sheffield, Hillsborough) (Lab): understand that sensible precautions should be followed I beg to move, to protect visitors and children in the home. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Dangerous It is common sense that a child should never be left Dogs Act 1991 and the Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) Act 1997; unsupervised in the company of a dog and it is surely and for connected purposes. not too difficult for dog owners to protect health visitors, It is a pleasure to present this Bill to the House today. meter readers, social workers or even the people who Before laying out what it is designed to achieve, I would deliver parcels to the door by putting the dog in another like to pay tribute to the immense commitment shown room for the duration of a visit or while the door is by Claire Robinson of the Royal Society for the Prevention being opened to a visitor. Surely such simple measures of Cruelty to Animals and by Dave Joyce of the as a post box on the gate or a cage around the letter box Communication Workers Union in putting together the in the door would do a great deal to protect postal campaign to change the law relating to the responsibilities workers. In that context, the ability to prosecute would of dog owners. be a useful tool for the police to employ in the most Why does the law need changing? At the moment, if a extreme cases and it could act as an important deterrent, dog attacks in a public place, the owner can be prosecuted. helping to reinforce the message that education programmes However, this is not the case if the attack takes place on are designed to convey. private property, yet there is clearly a problem as far as such attacks are concerned. Let us look at the statistics. Many other organisations support the measure. The Around 6,000 postal workers are attacked by dogs every Royal Mail, crucially, is giving it full support, as are the year, with 70 per cent. of those attacks taking place on International Institute of Risk and Safety Management, private property. In one instance, at Christmas 2007, Prospect and the Union of Construction, Allied Trades Paul Coleman, a postal worker in Sheffield, was attacked and Technicians. Unison also supports the measure so badly that he needed skin grafts and plastic surgery. because of concerns for its members who regularly visit At Christmas 2008, Keith Davies nearly lost a leg in a patients and clients at home; while the group safety, horrific attack in Cambridge. Of course, we all hear health and environment manager of Scottish and Southern about the horrific attacks on children, who sometimes Energy has also pledged support. The legal department suffer from awful lifelong disfigurements as a consequence, of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and sometimes we hear about the terrible deaths that has received 30 claims for dog bites from members over occur when children are attacked in the home by dogs. the past two years, the bulk of which were from home delivery workers. In one case, a worker was so severely Clause 1 would therefore aim to extend the offence of traumatised by a dog’s attack on her as she delivered having a dog dangerously out of control, so that it goods to a private address that she gave up her job. applied not only to attacks in public places, but to those in private places, such as homes and gardens. For instance, The case for change is clear and the range of public where postmen and women or other workers have to bodies and members of the public supporting the Bill is visit properties and are attacked in the gardens or growing by the day. The Bill proposes to take the within the dwelling, section 3 of the Dangerous Dogs emphasis away from the breed and focus on the deed. Act 1991 would apply. It would also cover instances Currently, all dogs classified under section 1 of the where children are injured and/or killed in the home. 1991 Act as belonging to a breed dedicated to fighting Such a measure is commanding support from diverse are subject to seizure by the police, but on many occasions quarters. The Dogs Trust says: they are seized only to be registered and handed back to “This Bill… places additional emphasis on dog owners to take the owners on the grounds that those dogs are responsibly responsibility for their dog’s behaviour at all times”. owned and managed. This practice ties up valuable That is an important point. At the moment, if there is police resources and time, which could be put to better an attack on a child or adult by a dog, more often than use in tackling the growing problem of so-called status not, that dog is destroyed, but it is the owner who needs dogs. to be the focus of attention and who needs to face the The current law is not working. RSPCA inspectors, consequences. That point is also supported by the Kennel many police officers and local authority wardens are Club, which says that this part of the Bill is warmly seeing many more different types of large powerful dogs welcomed because greater responsibility is being placed on the streets, and section 1 of the 1991 Act has not had on the owners to ensure that their dogs are not out of the desired result of preventing the four named types of control. dogs from becoming established in the UK. It has just Thanks to a campaign by the RSPCA, nearly 4,000 not worked. It is the view of the RSPCA, the Dogs members of the public contacted their MPs to support Trust and the Kennel Club that it really is time to the Bill. One comment is particularly worthy of mention. change the Act in order to allow section 1 dogs to be It comes from a mother whose own child was attacked exempted and added to the register without necessarily by her own dogs some years ago and who has been being seized—if it is the police’s judgment that that is campaigning for a change in the law since then. She said appropriate. to me: “I wholeheartedly support any moves for safety and find the As I mentioned earlier, the Bill will focus attention on current situation regarding postal workers and dog aggression the deed rather than the breed. It is the action of wholly unacceptable. The consequences are devastating and life- owners—what they encourage or allow their dogs to changing.” do—that is important, rather than the breed or type of 309 Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) 1 JULY 2009 310

[Ms Angela C. Smith] Parliamentary Standards Bill [Relevant Documents: Memorandum from the Audit dog involved. This measure in my Bill is designed to Committees on the Parliamentary Standards Bill. Copies give the police discretion to act accordingly. are available in the Vote Office. Seventh Report from the It is time to take action. Support for these measures is Justice Committee, Constitutional Reform and Renewal: widespread. Furthermore, the Scottish Parliament is Parliamentary Standards Bill, HC 791. Nineteenth Report legislating on the issue in the Control of Dogs (Scotland) from the Joint Committee on Human Rights, Legislative Bill, which was introduced on Monday 22 June. It Scrutiny: Parliamentary Standards Bill, HC 844. ] proposes that warning notices be issued to owners of dogs whose behaviour is deemed to be unacceptable. We [2ND ALLOCATED DAY] should consider doing the same in England as part of a Considered in Committee. process beginning with education and ending, in the worst cases, with prosecution backed by the appropriate [SIR MICHAEL LORD in the Chair] penalties. I understand that Northern Ireland is considering Clause 6 legislative change, as is the Welsh Assembly. England cannot afford to be left out. Its residents deserve the MPS’ CODE OF CONDUCT extra protection offered to their Welsh, Scottish and Irish neighbours, and the Bill provides the means to The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means deliver it. (Sir Michael Lord): We begin with amendment No. 63, Question put and agreed to. with which it will be convenient to deal with new clause 4 and clause 6 stand part. Ordered, That Ms Angela C. Smith, Michael Connarty, Norman 12.52 pm Baker, Mr. Bob Laxton, Geraldine Smith, Mr. Ian Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): On Cawsey, Natascha Engel, Joan Ryan, Mr. Mike Hancock, a point of order, Sir Michael. There has been a most Mr. Michael Clapham, Kelvin Hopkins and Miss Anne extraordinary development since we met yesterday. The Begg present the Bill. Justice Committee produced a report to the House this Ms Angela C. Smith accordingly presented the Bill. very morning in which it has recommended that clause 10 Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on be not proceeded with. That was decided unanimously, Friday 16 October and to be printed (Bill 128). and with a majority of Labour Members present. The Justice Secretary has already indicated that he will not proceed with clause 6, and I am sure that it would assist this Committee’s deliberations considerably if he indicated now whether he is minded to accept the unanimous report of a Select Committee of the House. The Second Deputy Chairman: As far as the Chair is concerned, our proceedings must simply follow the order that is set out before us. I am sure that if the Justice Secretary wishes to alter those arrangements or make any other interventions, he will do so in his own time. I understand that amendment No. 63 is not to be moved. Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): I am grateful to the Government for adding their name to my amendment proposing the deletion of clause 6. It seemed to me that the clause added absolutely nothing to the Bill, as the House already has a code of conduct that reflects the Nolan rules. It also posed a substantial risk in opening up to judicial review that which happens in the House. I am glad that the Government have recognised the force of the arguments against it, have heeded the wise counsel of the Clerk of the House, and have had second thoughts. There are many other issues that we hope to address later, so I will not detain the House any longer. I merely express my gratitude for the fact that common sense has prevailed, and the clause is now not to be part of the Bill. Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): I am sure everyone will be relieved that the Government have shown such good sense. I congratulate my right hon. Friend the 311 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 312

Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) 1pm on his amendment. If we are lucky enough, in terms of the timetable and in other respects, we shall deal later The Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor with new clauses 7 and 8, which will help to clarify (Mr. ): I am grateful for recognition of the issues relating to the application of article IX of the Bill fact that I have sought to respond to proposals from all of Rights 1689 and the supremacy of Parliament. However, parts of the House to improve the Bill, and I shall I think that we can leave that debate until later. continue to do that wherever I can. Let me say in response to the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) that the provisions Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): We are, of of clause 5 are completely different from those of clause course, pleased that the Government have decided to 6, which we hope will be excised in its entirety in a few remove clause 6. However, we wish to make clear that seconds. Clause 5 deals with the Independent Parliamentary that is not because we do not approve of the idea of a Standards Authority—and, for sure, various statutory code—indeed, we already have one—but because, as the duties are imposed on that. The fact that what was Clerk of the House made clear, the clause would have previously referred to as financial rules is now defined put us on a collision course with the courts. as a code relating to finance is a rose by any other name While I welcome what I expect the Secretary of State in that it does not make any substantive difference. I for Justice to tell us in a moment, this does rather take think I can see a twinkle in the hon. Gentleman’s eye as us back to the future. I will not rehearse all the arguments he understands that point. that were in my Second Reading speech, but I will say We will remove clause 6 because we have recognised that if clause 6 had remained in the Bill, the legitimate the serious anxieties expressed, not least by the learned concerns of constituents would have been replaced by Clerk, and because, as the hon. Gentleman said, it the vexatious concerns of litigants. could have encouraged litigious constituents. I might We are, however, disappointed that yesterday, having just add, however, that that prospect remains. It happens delighted us by saying that they would withdraw the to be the case that I was the first Member of this House clause, the Government brought it in again through the to be subject to legal action from a constituent who back door, in a slightly watered-down form, by changing believed that they had been badly served by me. That all the language of clause 5 from the word “rules” to the happened at the end of the 2000-01 Session, and a word “code”. That, in our view, has introduced a new resolution of the House was tabled on that. A completely element of confusion. Before the amendments were inadvertent error was made, compounding one made by passed, there was a welcome hint of clarity. The word the local authority, in which the name of an innocent “code” now refers only to financial interests. It is to constituent who lived at No. 9 in a street was transposed some extent sub-divided in the language of clause 5, to the address of a drug dealer against whom the but, as with the use of the word “standards”, the constituent was complaining who lived at No. 11. The Government have introduced that element of confusion, local authority transposed the two addresses. My very which could otherwise have been avoided. good member of staff did the same on the basis of the mistake by the local authority, and I was the subject of I think that the origin is, once again, interference by legal action. The House very kindly decided to indemnify the Prime Minister. Page 8 and other parts of the me against the £33,000 that that mistake cost. That risk document that he produced yesterday, “Building Britain’s remains, but I have no wish to compound it. Future”—itself probably an inaccurate title—state: As we are currently discussing clause 6, I shall come “We are introducing legislation to create an independent regulator on to deal with the point raised by the hon. Member for for Parliamentary standards, and a tough, legally binding Code of Conduct for MPs.” Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) when we discuss clause 10. I see that an important amendment to it has If we juxtapose the amended clause 5 and the soon-to-be been tabled by the right hon. Member for North-West absent clause 6 with what the Prime Minister has said Hampshire (Sir George Young) and my hon. Friend the about a legally binding code of conduct, and if we take Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) to which I what he has said at face value, we see that we may once am very sympathetic, and I will make a further decision again be heading for a justiciable code of conduct, about it in the course of these proceedings. With that, I which is exactly what the removal of clause 6 was ask that clause 6 be excised from the Bill. designed to avoid. Question put and negatived. We are not clear—I am convinced that there is still Clause 6 accordingly disagreed to. confusion—about whether that will create the problems surrounding justiciability that the Clerk of the House has already highlighted, but I am afraid that our pleasure at the removal of the clause has been tainted by our Clause 7 disappointment that many of its disadvantageous elements have crept into the Bill elsewhere. INVESTIGATIONS Amendment made: 84, page 4, line 33, leave out Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) ‘financial interests rules’ and insert (LD): As I said on Second Reading, it is good that ‘code of conduct relating to financial interests’.—(Mr. Straw.) the Secretary of State will remove clause 6, but when he rises to explain his reasoning for that, he might also explain his logic as to how it is consistent to Sir George Young: I beg to move amendment 9, remove clause 6 while retaining other provisions such as page 4, line 35, at end insert— clause 10. ‘(ab) at the request of the member,’. 313 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 314

The Second Deputy Chairman: With this it will be Investigations. The Bill thus removes a facility that is convenient to discuss the following: currently available to Members and which has been Amendment 10, page 4, line 42, at end insert— used on several occasions in the past couple of years. Amendment 9 would restore that facility. ‘(4A) No report shall be made by the Commissioner— (a) in any case where the member concerned has agreed I think it is right that there should be no automatic that he has failed to register or declare an interest, if entitlement for Members to refer their own cases. Currently, it is the Commissioner’s opinion that the interest the commissioner seeks the agreement of my Select involved is minor, or the failure was inadvertent, and Committee on Standards and Privileges before he proceeds the member concerned has taken such action by way with an investigation into a matter that has been self- of rectification as the Commissioner may have referred. In my view, it would be appropriate for the required within any procedure approved by the IPSA for this purpose; and procedures that will be drawn up under this clause to (b) in any case involving the MPs’ allowance scheme, or prescribe a similar process whereby a self-referral leads the use of facilities or services, if the Commissioner to an investigation only if IPSA gives its assent. For has with the agreement of the member concerned example, there may be allegations made about a Member referred the matter to the IPSA for the purpose of which receive widespread publicity but nobody actually securing appropriate financial reimbursement, and makes a complaint. The only way in which that Member the member has made such reimbursement within can have his name cleared is to refer himself, currently such period of time as the Commissioner considers to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, go reasonable.’. round the course and then, hopefully, be cleared. Amendment 11, page 5, line 5, at end insert— Amendment 9 would replicate that facility in the proposed ‘(5A) In determining the procedures, the IPSA must consult— new regime. (a) the Leader of the House of Commons, Amendment 10 deals with a different point, but it is (b) the Committee on Standards and Privileges, and similar in that the purpose is again to restore a feature (c) any other person the IPSA considers appropriate.’. of the current system that will otherwise be lost, and Amendment 48, page 5, line 6, leave out subsection (6). which in the opinion of my Committee has worked well. Amendment 45, page 5, line 11, at end add— I am referring to the rectification procedure. The amendment allows the new commissioner to rectify ‘(7) The IPSA must ensure that any member who is subject of an investigation is provided with independent advice and counsel certain cases without making a formal report to IPSA. on all matters relevant to that investigation.’. It closely replicates the language of Standing Order No. 150. Typically, cases suited to rectification involve New clause 5—Minimum requirements for fairness— the misuse of a few prepaid envelopes, or an inadvertent ‘The procedures referred to in subsection (5) of section 7 must, and relatively minor error in the content of a letter sent in particular, provide a Member who is the subject of an out using the communications allowance. Where the investigation or complaint with— Member accepts that such a relatively minor error has (a) a prompt and clear statement of the precise allegations against the Member; been made and makes the appropriate restitution, the matter can be regarded as dealt with. I fear that if no (b) adequate opportunity to take legal advice and have legal assistance throughout; provision of this kind is made, IPSA will find that it is kept very busy considering reports on relatively minor (c) the opportunity to be heard in person; and inconsequential breaches of the rules. (d) the opportunity to call relevant witnesses at the relevant time; Subsection (4) states: (e) the opportunity to examine other witnesses; “After conducting an investigation, the Commissioner must (f) the opportunity to attend meetings at which evidence is make a report to the IPSA on the Commissioner’s findings.” given, and to receive transcripts of evidence.’. If the reports are to be substantive they will, again, New clause 11—Fairness: Minimum requirements— involve a lot of work about very little. It would be ‘The procedures referred to in subsection (5) of section 7 must, helpful if the Secretary of State could say something in particular, provide a Member who is the subject of an about how that unqualified requirement to report might investigation or complaint with— work in practice. (a) a prompt and clear statement of the precise allegations against the Member; Finally in this group, amendment 11 would require (b) adequate opportunity to take legal advice and have IPSA to consult before it determined a set of procedures legal assistance throughout; applying to the treatment of complaints, the conduct of (c) the opportunity to be heard in person; investigations by the new commissioner and the publication (d) the opportunity to call relevant witnesses at the of the commissioner’s reports. The procedures will be of relevant time; considerable importance to the House, and I am surprised (e) the opportunity to examine other witnesses; that no provision for consultation was included in the Bill, especially as it very commendably includes consultation (f) the opportunity to attend meetings at which evidence is given, and to receive transcripts of evidence; provisions in clauses 3, 5 and 11—a fact that should make it easy for the Government to accept this amendment. (g) the benefit of a standard of proof of beyond reasonable doubt where the allegation amounts to a I would have preferred the new commissioner rather criminal charge, and of the balance of probabilities than IPSA to be in the driving seat when it comes to in all other cases.’. drawing up the investigation procedures, and my failure Clause stand part. to table an amendment to that effect is but one more symptom of the haste with which this Bill is being put Sir George Young: As drafted, clause 7 does not through. I have, however, tabled such an amendment for provide an opportunity for Members to refer their own Report, and it would be helpful if the Secretary of State cases to the new Commissioner for Parliamentary could comment now on whether he will accept it. 315 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 316

A further question arises on this clause: its relationship to an investigation or to a direction by the commissioner with clause 9. Given that all the alleged breaches of the under clause 8. There should be an informal way of rules that the commissioner may investigate under clause 7 ensuring that right hon. and hon. Members have access will also be offences under subsections (1) or (2) of to independent advice without having to resort to expensive clause 9, do the Government expect the commissioner lawyers. to be at all busy, because these will now be criminal That would be simple to arrange, and my two offences—and is it not the case that all serious breaches amendments seek to put those obligations on IPSA and will be handled by the police, leaving only relatively the commissioner to ensure that that advice is afforded minor cases such as the misuse of prepaid envelopes to Members without additional and unnecessary expense. and the inadvertent inclusion of a party logo in a letter That would avoid the situation wherein hon. Members funded by the communications allowance to be investigated are left completely isolated in a system that they are by the commissioner? Therefore, what exactly will the fighting. The accusations may be unjust or arise out of work load be? a misunderstanding, but we still ought to have a means Amendments 48 and 45 stand in the name of the hon. of providing, in a fairly relaxed way, relatively informal Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) and my hon. Friend advice. Obviously it remains open to a Member of the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) respectively, Parliament to obtain formal legal advice if he or she so so I shall not comment on them. However, having chooses, but I hope that my proposal would save right successfully had a number of amendments adopted by hon. and hon. Members a great deal of anxiety, while the Government yesterday, I regard myself as being on also giving comfort to IPSA and the commissioner that something of a roll, and I hope that my good fortune the Member was capable of dealing with the matter in a may carry on to today. informed and practical way, and was not being left on his own or facing huge legal expenses. Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): I will not detain the House for long, and I apologise for not Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon) (Lab): I shall speak to having been present at the beginning of our proceedings— amendment 48 and new clauses 5 and 11, which I have although not so that I could have moved the amendment tabled to give effect to recommendations made in the in my name in the previous group; I had no intention of report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. The wasting the House’s time on that, given the Secretary of Committee’s concern was about the need to ensure that State’s statement that he was withdrawing the clause Members receive a fair hearing throughout this process. concerned. It is often said that human rights are all about unpopular My amendment in this group echoes the concern of causes and, as I said on Second Reading, there cannot my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West be many more unpopular causes around at the moment Hampshire (Sir George Young) that Members subject than us. However, our unpopularity does not detract to the procedures of IPSA and the commissioner should from the fact that even MPs are entitled to due process. be properly informed of what is going on and have The significant human rights issue raised by the Bill proper advice. is whether it provides sufficient safeguards—I do not My particular concern relates to a personal experience, think that it does—to be compatible with Members’ which I discussed in abstract terms with the Parliamentary right to due process under both common law and article Commissioner for Standards, so as to avoid lobbying 6 of the European convention on human rights. The him about a complaint that might arrive in his in-tray. I Government accept, in their explanatory notes, that the had found that I had inadvertently breached the rules, provisions in the Bill relating to the functions of IPSA so I went to him to present him with a letter, which was, “may engage” the right to a fair hearing under article 6, in effect, a self-referral. He said that he was minded not but they say that no incompatibility is involved. Their to accept it, but when I asked him what action he would notes say that the reason for that is, first, that take, he said that he would wait for a complaint. I then “the direction or recommendation functions of the IPSA do not asked him what he would advise me to do, to which he involve the determination of civil rights or obligations.” said that he could not advise me, because he might They say that in this context we are talking about receive a complaint and have to adjudicate on the case. I “a matter of ‘public law’ rather than private law rights.” asked him which servant of the House of Commons The notes say that the second reason is because even if could advise me on the matter, but he told me that IPSA’s functions do determine a Member’s civil right, nobody could. I then asked whether I should seek legal there is no incompatibility because advice—that seems to relate to the import of my right hon. Friend’s amendment—but he said that his body “there are a range of safeguards in place to ensure the fairness of discourages from people taking legal advice because it the procedures of the IPSA.” makes its proceedings so much more protracted. In addition, they say that I have great sympathy with that view, and now that, “an MP will have the opportunity to make representations”. between IPSA and the commissioner, we are having a However, if we examine the Bill we see that such separation between the management of rules, and the safeguards are almost non-existent. The only safeguards investigation of and adjudication on breaches, it should are those in clause 7(6), which are that a Member has a be simple for IPSA and/or the commissioner—here I right link my amendment 45 with my amendment 46, which “to make representations to the Commissioner about the investigation” seeks to amend clause 8—to ensure that a servant of IPSA or a Clerk in the service of the House, which and means someone who does not cost the Member money “to make representations to the IPSA in light of the Commissioner’s and does not cost the House of Commons additional report.” money, is made available to the Member who is subject That is nowhere near enough. 317 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 318

[Mr. Andrew Dismore] the standard of proof should be the “balance of probabilities”. That is the basis on which the commissioner The right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire investigates a complaint and the Standards and Privileges (Sir George Young), the Chair of the Standards and Committee judges it now. The more serious the charge, Privileges Committee, has admitted in evidence that he the higher the standard that we will apply, as is only gave some time ago to the Committee on Standards in appropriate. I hope that the House will accept what I Public Life that even our existing procedures are not am saying about this issue. fully compliant with article 6. Yet the new procedures represent far less than we have at the moment before the Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) Standards and Privileges Committee, and they are (Con): Is there not also merit in thinking about whether inadequate. we should have some procedure for appeal, so that the finding could at least be reviewed as to its merits by 1.15 pm some appellate authority? My amendment 48 would delete clause 7(6) with a view to replacing it with something a little more fitting, Mr. Dismore: The right hon. and learned Gentleman because I believe, as my Committee states, that the anticipates my new clause 6, which will be discussed when we reach clause 10, and I entirely agree with what “Government’s view that Article 6…does not apply to the disciplining of members is…not tenable in view of the very he says. New clause 11 is slightly fuller than new clause 5 serious consequences that might result”. because it also deals with the burden of proof. I understand We are talking about not only financial penalties, but that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is expulsion or suspension from the House and, inevitably, minded to accept, in principle, that I am on the right the destruction of the Member’s political career. We lines here, but I hope that when he replies he will make have seen what can happen to Members as a consequence clear which of this shopping list of very basic procedural of the revelations in and of previous minimum requirements he does not agree with. He recommendations of the Standards and Privileges should do so if he wishes me not to pursue this matter, Committee accepted by the House that have, in effect, but to allow it to be dealt with in the other place. I meant that Members have had to decide to give up their cannot see which of my proposals anyone who is expecting seats at the next election as a result of what we have a fair hearing could object to. If we are to consider found out. turning our procedures to the outside world and having independent investigation, we should apply to ourselves There is little doubt that the proposed procedure the same standards as we would expect any other relates to the determination of Members’ rights. Sometimes professional disciplinary body to apply in the outside the nature of the allegation will be such that the world, be it one relating to doctors, lawyers or anybody determination will be of a criminal charge—we have else. We should not be treated any differently, fair already seen some such cases before the Standards and standards of hearing are essential, and my proposals set Privileges Committee in which there has been a suggestion out what those require. that a Member has acted fraudulently. Otherwise, the allegations will relate to the determination of a Member’s Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): My name civil rights, given the seriousness of the consequences is attached to new clause 11 and I support it strongly for for the Member concerned. These cases will always have the reasons cogently adduced by the Chairman of the serious consequences for Members’ reputations, and Joint Committee on Human Rights, the hon. Member may well affect their ability to pursue their livelihood. for Hendon (Mr. Dismore). I rise at this point to refer to That view is reflected not only in my Committee’s a more detailed aspect of clause 7, and in doing so I report, but in the previous report undertaken by the draw the attention of the Committee to the report on Joint Committee on Parliamentary Privilege and in the the Bill that the Justice Committee produced overnight, recommendations made by the Committee on Standards which deals with many of the clauses and includes the in Public Life. Clerk’s memorandum, the Government’s response to it We are recommending a series of relatively and several academic notes on some of the issues. straightforward matters that reflect contemporary standards The issue that arises in clause 7(3) is who would of fairness. We propose the following, which are minimum decide on the reasonableness of the commissioner’s requirements of fairness: requests, and whether a Member could seek judicial “(a) a prompt and clear statement of the…allegations against review of the commissioner’s actions. If in the meantime the Member; the House had used its disciplinary powers to punish a (b) adequate opportunity to take legal advice and have legal Member for failing to provide information that subsequent assistance throughout; judicial review demonstrated that the commissioner (c) the opportunity to be heard in person; was acting unreasonably in seeking, we would be in (d) the opportunity to call relevant witnesses… difficulties, because that would open the door to judicial (e) the opportunity to examine other witnesses”— review of the decision by the House or the Standards the Standards and Privileges Committee does not allow and Privileges Committee on the matter. That may that last one at the moment—and sound like a technical point, but it is potentially important, (f) the opportunity to attend meetings at which evidence is and the Clerk has drawn attention to it. given”. The issues to which the Justice Committee wants to We also seek to ensure that the standard of proof to draw special attention arise mainly in clause 10, for be applied reflects the nature of the charge. Thus, if the which we recommend a route to achieve at least more charge is so serious as to amount, in effect, to the measured reflection on all these aspects of privilege by determination of a criminal charge, it should be proved setting them aside for the time being and concentrating beyond all reasonable doubt, but for less serious charges on the parts of the Bill that set up the independent body 319 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 320 so that it can carry out its central and essential function. to assess what the commissioner will have to do, and to In case the Government do not accept that wise advice, relieve him of the burden of having to make an investigation we will have to ensure as we go along that we do not and report on unimportant matters. build in the potential danger of undesirable judicial My second point confirms that made by the right review of the proceedings of the House. hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) Mr. Hogg: I can well understand that it may be about the possible role of the courts in this matter. necessary to require discovery of documents, but as Serious offences will of course be subject to the criminal clause 7(3) is drafted, it would enable a Member to be law on fraud, theft and false accounting. In addition, required to produce “any information”, and that raises and unnecessarily, we will also import some more criminal issues of self-incrimination. Perhaps we should look offences into the Bill. I am especially concerned by the carefully at the clause to see whether it can be tightened word “reasonably”in clause 7(3). It could be judiciable—it to apply only to the disclosure of appropriate documents, will, after all, appear in statute law. I can imagine a case and does not require Members to incriminate themselves. in which the commissioner gets into a dispute with a Member under investigation—for what may well be a Sir Alan Beith: That is a sensible point and further serious matter—who resists having to disclose personal illustrates the need for much more measured and careful tax records. The commissioner may demand those records, consideration of some of these clauses than the procedures on the grounds that that is the only way in which the that we are now following allow. If we cannot reach evidence can be found for income received that should sensible conclusions about them under this process, we have been disclosed. Or the financial disclosure requirements should set them aside and consider them later, while could require the production of names and addresses of concentrating on matters that can be dealt with immediately. professional clients or customers, in the case of a business. The Member concerned may consider, reasonably, that Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): I support that would be improper and that he owes a duty of these amendments, especially those tabled by my right confidentiality to his customers or clients. So there may hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire be a genuine dispute between a Member and the (Sir George Young). I hope that he will continue his commissioner—an external person, appointed by the remarkable run of getting his amendments accepted. In Crown and therefore with no particular duty to or particular, I support what he said about the lack of affection for the House, and driven by public opinion. proportion in the gravity of the offences to be investigated. The Member concerned may feel that he is on the We are all aware that there is no de minimis rule in the receiving end of unfair inquiries. Bill, although inadvertent and trivial breaches may As I understand it, such a dispute would be judiciable, occur, through genuine mistakes, that could easily be and therefore the court would have to decide what was put right. reasonable. In that case, the court would be interfering in matters that should remain within the purview of the Sir Patrick Cormack: Does my right hon. Friend House. agree that, because of the timetable, we did not debate, and therefore do not have, a sunset clause? Mr. Hogg: It is not only as my right hon. Friend Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: My hon. Friend is right, and understands the point, but as the Clerk understands it. it is a scandal that we did not even discuss such a vital In his evidence to the Justice Committee, the Clerk protection yesterday. The theme running through the made exactly that point. whole of these proceedings is that there is no case for treating this Bill as an emergency. It is a complete abuse of how we conduct proceedings that we have been asked 1.30 pm to sign up to matters affecting the rights, immunities and privileges of this House—and, more widely, of the Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: I am grateful to my right hon. people whom we represent—without discussing important and learned Friend for pointing that out. I think that clauses at all. that gives it additional weight and authority, and we should all be concerned when a servant of this House I am especially concerned by the lack of proportionality raises such points. The Clerk cannot make a speech; he in these clauses. As I understand it—if I am wrong, I relies on us to reflect his concerns, which is what we are trust that the Justice Secretary will correct me—the doing. same rules will apply to trivial or inadvertent offences. Many such offences will be referred to the commissioner It is a regrettable fact that the courts might be required as part of the party political contests in each constituency. to make a judgment on what is essentially a dispute Many people are itching to refer to the new commissioner between the House and the commissioner, with matters that may be important locally but which, in the unpredictable consequences. If I understood the right great scheme of things, are oversights that could be hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed correctly, if the easily corrected. The commissioner will have to investigate House decided to discipline the Member concerned and all such matters, in order to decide whether they are it was subsequently found that the information was unimportant or trivial, and will then have no option but demanded unreasonably, the court would be interfering to make a report to IPSA on his findings, under clause 7(4). directly in the disciplinary matters of this House. If The very fact of making any inquiry—even if the conclusion there is something on which we all agree, it is the fact is that no action need be taken—must lead to a report. that the House must retain the ultimate sanction to That will be immensely bureaucratic, and it is likely that discipline its own Members. If I am wrong about that— in the intervening weeks the Member’s local paper will [Interruption.] No, I think that the Justice Secretary is highlight the fact that he or she is under investigation by agreeing with me. Will he explain, then, how that sanction the commissioner. It is very important that we now try is not put at risk if a court can declare that disciplinary 321 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 322

[Mr. Heathcoat-Amory] That point brings me to new clause 11, tabled by the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore). I thought action by the House is unreasonable because the that my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon- commissioner had been unreasonable in the requiring Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) succinctly and cogently showed certain information from a Member under investigation? why I would also support the new clause. It is a basic statement of best practice and I do not see what part of Mr. Carmichael: I, too, shall endeavour not to detain it could be objected to. I, too, will listen to the Secretary the Committee overlong. We have before us a range of of State when he responds on that point. amendments. The amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) Let me return to the practicalities of all this. The hon. seem, as others have said, sensible and workable. They Member for Hendon has tabled a new clause that will represent an improvement to the mechanism of the Bill rebalance the rights and obligations under the Bill in a and I hope that the roll that the right hon. Gentleman is way that is very necessary. However, if we go down that on will continue. track, what is there by way of effective investigation? It I was impressed by some of what the hon. Member is in the nature of investigation that we do not always for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) said about the availability know what we are looking for when we start. Although of informal legal advice—I think that that was the way much of what we have here provides necessary protection that he put it. Experience teaches me, however, that for the rights of the person being investigated, as legal advice is never informal. One either gets legal consequences could subsequently flow to him, will we advice or one does not. It seems to me that his suggestion, have an inquisitorial process that achieves the objective superficially attractive though it is, is a parliamentary that we aim it to have at this stage? equivalent of the legal aid duty solicitor scheme. For many years, I trawled around the police cells of the Mr. Dismore: Under the existing arrangements between north and north-east of Scotland as part of that admirable the commissioner and the Standards and Privileges scheme, and although I find the proposal not unattractive, Committee, there is an obligation on a Member to even a legal aid duty solicitor has a direct lawyer-client co-operate with the inquiry. Co-operating with the inquiry relationship from which there can be no departure. The does not preclude a Member’s having the benefits of standard of service and care, as well as the duty of care, due process. that is owed by the legal aid duty solicitor to the client in the cells is exactly the same as that which would be Mr. Carmichael: It is a question of checks and balances. owed by any City solicitor to a blue-chip client. The system at the moment is reasonably well balanced because the consequences that can flow from an Mr. Jenkin: I did not say “informal legal advice”, but investigation are that much more restrictive. It is clear “advice”. In fact, my amendment referred to “advice from the Bill, and from clause 9 in particular, that a lot and counsel”. Let us suppose a Clerk of the House was more could follow by way of consequences in the future. allocated the duty of advising Members who were the That is where the inquisitorial element, I fear, could subject of complaints, or of advising Members on how become deficient at the end of the day. The hon. to conduct themselves if they believe that they have Gentleman’s amendments are good, well founded and broken the rules. It seems quite reasonable that an hon. necessary. However, I fear that as a consequence of the Member should have someone in the House to turn to. effectiveness of the Bill as a whole, we will be left with a They might well say, “Well, in your circumstances you system that will not work as well as it ought to. That is should go and get legal advice,” but we should avoid the consequence of the Government’s having proceeded somebody’s having to take that step initially as it might in the way in which they have. They persist in that, be quite a low-level complaint. There should be some notwithstanding the evidence that has come from the way of dealing with low-level complaints without resorting Joint Committee on Human Rights, chaired by the hon. to lawyers. Member for Hendon, and the Justice Committee, chaired Mr. Carmichael: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon- and I do not want to labour it because I do not know Tweed. whether he will seek to press his amendment to a Division. There is certainly merit in the notion, but my Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The right hon. Member concern is that once we come to the practicalities of for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young)expressed how to make this work, the advice provided will effectively the wish that his roll would continue. I want to back be legal advice. It would be a brave Clerk who would that wish in respect of amendments 9, 10 and 11. advise a Member not to take legal advice in those I am of an age where in my Church we still said the circumstances. old-fashioned confiteor, with “Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa”—“Through my fault, through my Mr. Hogg: Although one might argue about the own fault, through my own most grievous fault.” Clearly, legalities, surely the proper position is to say that the we have to ensure that the system can allow for occasions hon. Member should have an opportunity to take legal where Members spot some discrepancy or indiscretion advice. It would be for the hon. Member to determine in relation to returns, claims, mistakes that were made where he got that advice from and how he paid for it, by their office or the inadvertent misplacement of claims. but he should have an opportunity to take legal advice When they identify them, they need to be able to have and to be represented by that adviser if he so chooses. them corrected properly without being told, as the hon. Surely that is a requirement of natural justice. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) said, that although Mr. Carmichael: That is one of the most basic norms they have corrected the error themselves, they still have of natural justice, and once we go down the route that to await the peril or jeopardy of a complaint or to be the Government are taking us down with this clause, subject to some wider observation. Self-correction must that is the inevitable consequence. be able to be taken and we need to ensure that the 323 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 324 system recognises the difference between venial sins and within what we like to call parliamentary privilege, it sins of omission and the mortal sins and more serious certainly happens in-House. I am the first to accept that sins of commission. I believe that the amendments go much of what will be investigated probably will not some way towards doing that. concern parliamentary privilege in any way at all, and Many of us have been looking at various claims and that is why investigating whether an MP has misclaimed other things, and I found myself listed among those or overclaimed is of very little consequence to the wider who had made repayments in the recent context. I constitutional framework of this country. refused an offer of a new mobile phone from O2, and However, if we move down this road, it is important was then told that I would get £200. I thought that that that we acknowledge that we will have to look very would be credit on my mobile phone bill, but instead I carefully at the fairness of the system that we introduce. got a cheque for that amount as cashback. Normally, I It will come in for more scrutiny, and my right hon. claim most bills for the phone on expenses, so I said that Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) the cashback should go back to that source of payment, was right to say that it will be justiciable—that is, which is the House of Commons. The £200 payment anyone unhappy with any aspect of the proceedings will was not in respect of any specific claim, or any claim be able to seek judicial review. that was wrong or undue, but it constituted a repayment In that context, the amendments put forward by my in the context of everything else that was happening. right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire Clearly, hon. Members must be allowed to make (Sir George Young) are extremely sensible. They would sensible and proper judgments without finding themselves allow people to self-refer, but the most telling proposal with some sort of criminal record. We are doing something is for a system that would allow very minor matters to that is on a par with tidying up The Highway Code, and be handled without a report having to be made. it should not end up with people being investigated as One problem that we will face was touched on by the though they were involved in some sort of federal case. hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). In a sense, I have some sympathy with the situation that the Members of Parliament are sole practitioners, and we hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) found himself handle offices and budgets that are quite substantial. in. He was caught in a conundrum but, for the reasons Also, I suspect that most Members of Parliament work put forward by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland rather longer hours than the average, and that the (Mr. Carmichael), I am wary of creating a system that administration of our offices is not the thing that we do means that everything could automatically be the subject best. Our capacity for making mistakes is very great. of legal advice. People may feel compelled to seek that advice, but the fact that such advice was being sought could also became a matter of record and freedom of 1.45 pm information. When our documents going back to 2004 were published, The way that the hon. Member for Hendon I looked through them and found that it was not (Mr. Dismore) presented new clauses 5 and 11 made difficult to pick out examples of things that might have them sound reasonable and compelling, but again I been done differently. Perfectly reasonably, most of us have some concern that investigations could turn into tend to sign off on things presented to us by members of hearings. We must not let the process grow beyond its staff. Keeping our office expenses under proper scrutiny limits, and I believe that the test will be how we strike is not what we are likely to do best. that balance. We need a system that recognises the importance of self-regulation. People must be able to own up quickly Sir Patrick Cormack rose— to making mistakes without the fear that they will be dumped on and dragged through the mud. Also, we Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con) rose— need a system that can reflect the de minimis rule: that is, we must ensure that people do not have to go through The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means: convoluted procedures for absolutely minimal mistakes. Mr. Dominic Grieve. Those points are dealt with by amendment 10, which I consider to be extremely sensible. Mr. Grieve: This has been an interesting debate, and I The hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) introduced hope that the Secretary of State will be able to respond new clause 11, which is a substantial improvement on positively to the points that have been raised. what we have at present. I do not know whether he is minded to press it to the vote, and I appreciate that it Sir Patrick Cormack: Some of us want to take part may be possible to do something about the proceedings in it. when the Bill comes up for further consideration elsewhere. My judgment, however, is that new clause 11 is a The Second Deputy Chairman: Order. Let me make it substantial improvement, and my concern is that not clear that there is no reason why hon. Members may not putting a similar provision in the Bill will lead, because take part. Those hon. Members who stand are called to of justiciability, to a decision by the commissioner speak in the way that the Chair thinks appropriate. being overruled or overturned. Mr. Dominic Grieve. I also have great concerns about the potential impact of the procedures on disciplinary decisions. Such decisions Mr. Grieve: Thank you, Sir Michael. I hope that the may be found to be in conflict with decisions taken by Secretary of State will be able to respond positively. It is the commissioner that are subsequently reviewed and clear that clause 7 moves us towards a much more found to be wanting. I shall say more about this in structured system of investigation than we have at present. connection with clause 8, but I do not think that the Whether or not the current investigation regime falls House can lightly ignore the problem. 325 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 326

Yesterday, we discussed at considerable length questions referred to the fact that when a Member is under of where Parliament’s rights will be intruded on. The investigation, he or she is under a cloud until it is problem is not so great with clause 7, but the fact is that completed. We all know from our constituencies that if the clauses cannot be looked at in isolation. I make this we read that somebody has been arrested on a particular point because the Secretary of State may wish to respond charge, a question mark automatically flashes up in our now as well as later, but the linkage between investigations, minds about the integrity of that person, even though enforcement and offences must be looked at as a whole. we all subscribe to “innocent until proven guilty”. How I have the most serious concerns about what we are dreadful it would be if 50 or 60—the number could even doing. If we confine the commissioner’s activities to run to three figures—new colleagues in a new Parliament looking at our expenses and salaries, there will be no were subject to some form of orchestrated complaint, great difficulty, and that was exemplified in the evidence or to a series of complaints. That is quite possible. given yesterday by the Clerk of the House to the Justice I was very impressed by the speech of my friend, the Committee. However, conflicts will start to arise once hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), who talked we stray outside of that, and the potential will grow for about his payback. Just think of the deterrent to saying the courts to intrude into the House’s affairs in ways “Mea culpa.” A Member may say, “Oh, good gracious that touch on our constitutional responsibilities. I hope me. I didn’t look sufficiently carefully at that, and now I that the Secretary of State will be open minded now—I have signed it off and all those letters have gone out. suspect that he will be, as it has been hinted that he may Let’s be quiet about it.” Members could be frightened, accept some of the amendments—and that he will also their careers could be blighted, and they could feel bear what I have said in when we consider later deeply self-conscious. All those factors will make it less amendments. easy for them to be effective Members of Parliament. Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex When we finish considering the Bill today—I deplore (Mr. Jenkin) has also tabled some amendments that the fact that we are dealing with it in such haste—we highlight areas of anxiety in exactly the same way. I must bear in mind that we are agreeing a piece of hope that the Secretary of State will be able to provide legislation that will not particularly impinge on many some reassurance that those problems will be addressed. Members in the House at the moment. By the time that It may be that they can be addressed now, but they it is fully in force, it will probably be the turn of the year; could also be dealt with by looking at the matter in its the Justice Secretary made that point. However, by May totality.We need a proper set of rules to govern investigation or June next year, there will be a new Parliament. If the and inquiry, and those rules should also cover hon. Act, as it will then be, hangs above that Parliament like Members’ ability to get proper advice as an investigation the sword of Damocles, just think of the effect that that proceeds. could have. I therefore beg the Secretary of State to accept the amendments—or, at the very least, their Sir Patrick Cormack: I shall be brief, but there are spirit—and to try to inject into the Bill a note of two points that I would like to put to the House. discernment and discrimination between the trivial and Parliaments tend to get known by particular names. the serious. If he does not, we will pass an Act that will The other week in the Chamber, the hon. Member for have a very bad effect on the next Parliament. Cannock Chase (Dr. Wright) talked about how this Parliament would come to be known in the future. I fear Mr. Hogg: I just want to say a brief word about that it may go down as the tarnished or tainted Parliament. amendment 10 and new clause 11. I am a strong supporter Among those of us who have sat in this Chamber in the of amendment 10, which was moved by my right hon. past few weeks, it will certainly go down as the depressed Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Parliament. I look forward to the next Parliament and Young), for the reasons that were advanced by my hon. hope that its Members can perform their duties Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick untrammelled, both here and in their constituencies. Cormack). It is entirely right to say that individual However, we must have regard to one overriding fact Members could face vexatious complaints, and that in that context. The new Parliament, no matter who would be very bad because it would put the hon. decides to go or stay, will contain many new Members. Member in question under a serious cloud and inhibit Some papers calculate that half the new Parliament him or her in the performance of his or her duties. could be composed of Members who have never sat One cannot exclude the possibility of co-ordinated here before. However many new Members there are, it and coherent campaigns against individual Members, will be a lot. Those new Members will come here, as we in which vexatious complaints are made. The amendment all did at one stage, somewhat overwhelmed by the put forward by my right hon. Friend the Member for honour of being here, I trust, and somewhat perplexed North-West Hampshire addresses that, in part, by providing by the rules of our procedures, which we all have to try for the hon. Member in question to make a repayment, to learn. There will be a new dimension, too, provided if the sum involved is modest and if there has been an by the Bill, which the House is rushing through this oversight. The amendment would guard against errors week. It worries me very much that that new Parliament of a de minimis kind. I think that the Justice Secretary could come to be known as the frightened Parliament, is saying that he is minded to accept the amendment. If or the blighted Parliament. he does not, let us hope that he will accept the spirit of Just think of the enormous scope that there will be what my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West for vexatious and frivolous complaints, yet according to Hampshire is doing. the Bill, every one of those complaints will have to be I note that new clause 11, which was tabled by the investigated. My right hon. Friend the Member for hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), has the support North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) made an of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, because the excellent speech when he moved amendment 9. He amendment is drawn from the text of the Committee’s 327 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 328 report. It also has the support of the Committee revised drafting. I will consult the right hon. Gentleman on Standards in Public Life. Those are two all-party about this, but if a member of the public—and we are committees of considerable authority, and the fact that not talking about vexatious complaints; if they are they are both signed up to the new clause seems to be of vexatious, hopefully they can be dismissed at an early considerable importance. As the hon. Gentleman said, stage—makes a genuine complaint it is important that the commissioner’s report could have dire consequences even if there is no formal report by the commissioner, for the future of any right hon. or hon. Member affected they are told what has happened. We must check that by that report. That is even more true of the IPSA that is the case. report. It is therefore important that the House should I am thinking of myself, too, because I was the try to ensure that the process is conducted in accordance subject of a complaint to the commissioner, which with the rules of natural justice. The hon. Gentleman’s would receive consideration by IPSA, and a complaint new clause ensures that that happens. was made in respect of a separate matter to the Electoral I have only one proviso to make. The process has two Commission. It made a difference to me to be able to stages—at least, it does at the moment, but there may be spell out the conclusion, which was that I could continue more later. The first stage is the investigation by the to be a Member of Parliament. The most recent complaint commissioner, leading to a report to IPSA. IPSA is then was about my repetition of an entirely inadvertent error obliged to enable the right hon. or hon. Member to by my constituency party treasurer, who received a make representations, so there is a second stage. I am donation that he misrecorded, without misleading not entirely clear—this is a matter for further anybody—it was from one of two companies owned by consideration—about whether all the protection afforded the same person—and I repeated the error, because I by new clause 11 should apply to both stages or one obtained the information from him. How else could I stage. That is a matter on which there needs to be some have obtained it? The newspapers made quite a lot of reflection. My feeling, at this stage, is that the full the fact that I had been referred to the Electoral Commission panoply of the protections should apply to the hearing by a Member of the House, and it took a bit of work to of the representations by IPSA, and that there should get them to accept that there was a further story, and be a lesser stage of protection relating to the inquiry that I had been cleared by the Electoral Commission. undertaken by the commissioner. The commissioner We must bear that in mind. should be obliged to accord quite a lot of protection to I hope that that deals with those amendments the hon. Member concerned, but not the full panoply satisfactorily. The right hon. Member for North-West that is contemplated in new clause 11. That full panoply Hampshire and my hon. Friend the Member for should be confined to the IPSA hearing. Middlesbrough have continued their clean sweep—every Mr. Dismore: If the right hon. and learned Gentleman one a winner—so I shall now turn to the other amendments. looks at the construction of new clause 11, he will see The hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) tabled that it does exactly what he suggests; it is confined to amendment 45, which states: the IPSA procedure by a cross-reference to clause 7(5). “The IPSA must ensure that any member who is subject of an investigation is provided with independent advice and counsel on Mr. Hogg: I had not fully understood that. I am all matters relevant to that investigation.” grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that plain, It is important that we do not over-egg the pudding and because the full panoply is probably best directed at the seek to provide ourselves—and the implication is that IPSA hearing, rather than at the preliminary hearing. this would be provided free—with something that is not available to others in similar circumstances. The availability 2pm of civil legal aid has been restricted for a long time. Mr. Straw: Like many of these debates, this has been Although the costs of such aid continue to rise, eligibility, an interesting one. I shall deal with the amendments by particularly outside the area of family law, is restricted. grouping them together. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant First, I accept amendment 9, which was tabled by the Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) is confirming that that is the case. right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Civil legal aid is also subject to means-testing, and it Young)and my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough would be improper of the House to establish by means (Sir Stuart Bell), as it is entirely right to add it to the of a single amendment—I know that the hon. Member Bill. I accept amendment 11, too, and there should be for North Essex does not intend this—a Rolls-Royce of no argument about that. I shall also accept amendment a legal aid scheme for ourselves that is not available 10, but I want to add a gloss. Sometimes one has to others. reservations about amendments, although one accepts We all have constituents in that situation—I have one their overall principle. If there are questions about their at the moment—who are subject to a process by their drafting or their full impact, one might ask the Member employer that could lead to dismissal and be reputationally who tabled them to withdraw them and wait for the terminal. They do not receive legal aid, although they matter to return at a later stage. may receive legal assistance from their trade union, so On amendment 10, I accept entirely the argument we must bear that in mind in relation to the question of made by the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire fairness. that the cases captured by proposed paragraphs (a) and (b) will be relatively trivial and so on, so it would be Mr. Jenkin: As the right hon. Gentleman rightly said, ridiculous to have the full panoply of a report to I do not intend that the Exchequer should end up the authority without any discretion in the hands of the providing legal aid to Members of Parliament. I am commissioner. I am therefore going to accept the talking about practical, reasonably expert advice that amendment, but I reserve the right—of course, it will be might result in a Clerk of the House saying, “Go and a matter for the House and the other place—to submit a get a lawyer. You’re in trouble.” Before reaching that 329 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 330

[Mr. Jenkin] There is one point that I need to raise in respect of subsection (g), which is the standard of proof, but I stage, there should be provision for some advice. If I accept that there should be greater clarity about the may say so, the exception for Members of Parliament is rights of those who are subject to a report by the justified in this case, given that we are creating offences commissioner. that apply only to Members of Parliament, who are Let me pick up the points made by the right hon. and particularly vulnerable to attack from members of the learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham public who may have grudges against us for some (Mr. Hogg), the name of whose constituency has changed peculiar reason. with extraordinary rapidity, although I dare say the boundaries have almost always stayed more or less the Mr. Straw: We will come on to the offences later, but same. He argued—I paraphrase—that the commissioner it is fair to point out that the House has been ready to carries out a preliminary investigation, which must of impose similar offences on other bodies. [Interruption.] course be fair. Now that we have accepted amendment The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield 10, the commissioner, if he so judges, makes a report to (Mr. Grieve) is mouthing derogatory comments about the authority. Plainly, less elaborate processes can apply the provision of those offences, but when the Scotland in respect of that initial consideration by the commissioner. Act 1998 was before Parliament I do not recall any I emphasise the point that, paradoxically, the overall adverse comments from the Conservatives. process that we are providing under the Bill is more Mr. Jenkin: It was not timetabled. substantial and provides more inbuilt protections for Members—[Interruption.] Yes, it does, I say to my hon. Mr. Straw: Some of the parallels are with the Local Friend the Member for Hendon—than the existing Government and Housing Act 1989, and my recollection process. Why? Because there will be a complaint, whether is that that measure was timetabled too, or subject to a it is a self-referral or an external complaint, to the guillotine. commissioner and an investigation by the commissioner. The commissioner then produces a report, which goes Mr. Grieve: I remember the generality of discussions to the authority. We are making extensive provision for on the Scotland Act, but I certainly would not be able to an arm’s length relationship between the authority and recall exactly what I said in the course of that debate. the commissioner. The Secretary of State must accept that since I have The authority considers the matter and can make a been in the House I have said pretty consistently that finding. The finding is either, under clause 8(1), which the tendency of the House, and particularly the we shall come on to deal with in more detail, to require Government, to impose new criminal sanctions—I think the Member to make a payment or to correct an omission that more than 3,000 have been created since 1997, or an inaccuracy in the register, and/or to recommend mostly of a regulatory nature—appears to have done to the House of Commons Standards and Privileges nothing to benefit our country whatsoever, and is a Committee the exercise of its disciplinary powers. When habit that we would do well to cease. the matter goes to the Committee, the normal rights of Members before the Standards and Privileges Committee, Mr. Straw: We try not to have criminal offences and from there to the Floor of the House, apply. Although unless they are necessary.The hon. and learned Gentleman under our current proposals the authority may recommend makes a nice rhetorical point, but when one goes into that a Member be suspended or expelled, the decision the detail of those offences, one discovers far less enthusiasm on that or a further recommendation is for the Standards for removing them from the statute book. I have had a and Privileges Committee and then for the Floor of the lot of correspondence from the leader of the Liberal House. Democrats, who has waxed eloquent on those 3,000 offences. I have asked him to name which of them he Mr. Dismore: My right hon. Friend is outlining a would repeal, were he ever in a position to do so. We series of steps, of which there is one more than we have have got it down to two out of 3,000. I also set that now, in practice. At present the commissioner reports to homework to the hon. and learned Gentleman. I accept the Standards and Privileges Committee, and we report that Members will need advice, but provision does not to the House. Under the Bill, the commissioner reports necessarily need to be made in the Bill. They ought to to IPSA, the Standards and Privileges Committee and receive advice—indeed, advice is available—here, but the House. An extra stage does not mean extra fairness; I will certainly take the proposal away and think about it simply means an extra stage in the process. My it. I promise the hon. Member for North Essex that I question to my right hon. Friend is the one that I asked will do so. earlier: which of the elements (a) to (g) does he disagree with in principle as part of the IPSA process? I come now to amendment 48 and new clauses 5 and 11. It is probably sensible to look at the more comprehensive Mr. Straw: The one that I am particularly concerned new clause 11 first. No one can argue with the fact that about is that related to the standard of proof, (g). We the methods adopted by the commissioner and the need to think very carefully about that. This is about a authority’s proceedings have to be fair. Clause 7(6) recommendation by the authority, not about the seeks to capture that injunction, and I am grateful to determination by the Standards and Privileges Committee. my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) I am not an employment lawyer, as I think my hon. and his Committee for their further, rapid consideration Friend was. I want to think about the matter. I also of the matter. However, there are some issues that we want the opportunity to go through the drafting of the need to think about. I invite my hon. Friend to accept new clause in more detail. That is not in the least a that we do not have a vote on the matter, and I in turn complaint to my hon. Friend. It is a recognition that we will accept that what is in subsection (6) will need to be are proceeding with some rapidity. His report came out added to, though perhaps not in the detail he proposes. yesterday and we need to think about the matter. 331 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 332

Mr. Grieve: Two things—first, the Secretary of State hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) clarified that says he needs to think about the report. We need to it would apply only to the authority stage because it think about it as well, but the trouble is that our refers specifically to subsection (5). But let us remember consideration of the Bill will all be finished at 7 o’clock that subsection (5) states: this evening. Secondly, I would have more sympathy “The IPSA must determine— with his concern about having a criminal standard of (a) procedures in relation to investigations under subsection (1); proof—the point raised by the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore)—if it were not for the fact that the (b) procedures in relation to complaints under subsection (2)(c); system of investigation, when linked to clauses 8 and 9, (c) procedures in relation to the circumstances in which a is a seamless line potentially moving towards a criminal report under subsection (4) is to be published.” prosecution. So IPSA clearly applies to two stages in relation to the Because the Government have set up the structure in investigation, and proposed new paragraphs (a) to (g) that way, and—I come back to this point—given powers of subsection (5) would apply separately in relation to to the commissioner of a kind that I do not believe he the procedures, because new clause 11 begins with: needs to do his job properly and make sure that our “The procedures referred to in subsection (5)”. allowances are properly given to us, we will be ratcheted So three sets of procedures are referred to, and they into much higher standards of proof. If this is the could apply three times, but that still does not deal with model that the Government insist on adopting, which I what we were assured the provision was meant to deal wish they would not, the line taken by the hon. Member with: how the authority would approach the matter on for Hendon will have to be followed. receiving the report and the findings. Clearly, something needs to be remedied and clarified if we are to get the Mr. Straw: I want to remind the House of this, and it measure right. is fundamental: it is astonishing how quickly the focus of a debate and of concern in the House can move, but Mr. Straw: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend, there is a public outside that remains highly sceptical, as who made the point better than I did. well as cynical, about the way we have operated our affairs up to now. We must bear that in mind all the time. One of the major problems that has been faced in Mr. Dismore: I accept that new clause 11, in relation this terrible expenses scandal is that no one outside the to where it fits in the jigsaw of the process, might need House accepted the legitimacy of decisions made by the tidying up. That is a fair point, but I am more concerned Fees Office or any other part of the House about about the principle of the requirement for a fair hearing, whether an expenses claim was or was not acceptable. and my right hon. Friend still has not said whether he That is why there must be an external adjudication of objects in principle to proposed new paragraphs (a) to such decisions. (f) as far as IPSA is concerned. They are the minimum requirements of natural justice and of article 6. The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield seems to want it both ways. Of course we must get it right, but My right hon. Friend expressed his reservations about if there is to be an external authority, it must be able to proposed new paragraph (g), but it provides for exactly come to some decisions, in a parallel way to decisions what the Commissioner for Standards and Privileges that would be made by similar bodies with similar tasks does now. If my right hon. Friend says that the Bill external to a particular profession and so on, not with takes nothing away from the rights of Members, he has lesser rights to the individual, nor with more. We need nothing to fear from proposed new paragraph (g), to end up with a situation where, if there were because the commissioner applies a much higher standard misconduct—not inadvertence, error or light negligence, in the most serious cases than he does in the more trivial but misconduct—by a Member, that could lead to a ones, and so he should, because that is the requirement criminal prosecution and/or discipline in the House, of article 6. and equally, where there is an allegation against a Member, but that allegation falls to be dismissed by the Mr. Straw: I have made my point in response to my authority—or subsequently by the Standards and Privileges hon. Friend, and I am glad that he accepts that his new Committee, but let us leave it at the authority—that is clause will require some substantial revision, or what he accepted as having authority behind it. calls tidying up. But we do not dispute the basic purport I understand the point that my hon. Friend makes, of the new clause. which we will consider. We will respond in the other place. This evening will not be the end of proceedings Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy) (PC): I on the Bill. It will go to the other place and come back rise to support fully the hon. Member for Hendon here. One of the serious concerns that I have about a (Mr. Dismore). There is currently a difference between raft of amendments that have been tabled—not, I may the standard of proof in a very serious offence and the say, by the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire other end of the scale, and the new clause’s instruction (Sir George Young)—is that their overall effect is to to IPSA would be a good thing, not a bad thing. It emasculate and undermine the basic purpose of the would not emasculate the Bill; it would put more meat Bill, which was accepted by Members on all sides and on the bone. all three party leaders. Mr. Straw: In the interests of progress, Sir Michael, I Mark Durkan: The right hon. and learned Member think I have made the points I have made. I commend to for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) hit on a the House the amendments that I suggest that we very serious point when he asked whether new clause 11 accept, and I hope that, on those amendments that we would end up applying both to the investigation stage cannot accept, the invitations that I have made to hon. and then to the adjudication stage by the authority. The Members will prove acceptable. 333 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 334

[Mr. Straw] Amendment 65, page 5, line 25, at end insert— ‘(2A) Any recommendation under subsection (2) shall be Amendment 9 agreed to. deemed to be proceedings in Parliament as expressed in the Bill Amendments made: 10, page 4, line 42, at end insert— of Rights 1689 notwithstanding any other provisions of this Act.’. ‘(4A) No report shall be made by the Commissioner— Amendment 33, page 5, line 26, leave out ‘or to make (a) in any case where the member concerned has agreed that he has failed to register or declare an interest, if a recommendation under subsection (2).’. it is the Commissioner’s opinion that the interest Amendment 46, page 5, line 28, at end insert involved is minor, or the failure was inadvertent, and ‘, and must ensure that the member is provided with independent the member concerned has taken such action by way advice and counsel on all matters relevant to the said direction or of rectification as the Commissioner may have directions.’. required within any procedure approved by the IPSA for this purpose; and Amendment 34, page 5, line 29, leave out subsection (4). (b) in any case involving the MPs’ allowance scheme, or Amendment 18, page 5, line 34, leave out subsection (5). the use of facilities or services, if the Commissioner Amendment 19, page 5, line 38, leave out subsection (6). has with the agreement of the member concerned referred the matter to the IPSA for the purpose of Amendment 20, page 5, line 38, leave out securing appropriate financial reimbursement, and ‘Speaker’s Committee on the Independent Parliamentary Standards the member has made such reimbursement within Authority’ such period of time as the Commissioner considers and insert reasonable.’. ‘Committee on Standards and Privileges.’. Amendment 11, page 5, line 5, at end insert— Amendment 21, page 5, leave out line 43. ‘(5A) In determining the procedures, the IPSA must consult— (a) the Leader of the House of Commons, Amendment 66, page 6, line 2, at end insert— (b) the Committee on Standards and Privileges, and ‘(7A) Any statement (“protocol”) prepared in accordance with subsections (6) and (7) shall be deemed to be proceedings in (c) any other person the IPSA considers appropriate.’.— Parliament as expressed in the Bill of Rights 1689 notwithstanding (Sir George Young.) any other provision of this Act.’. Mr. Jenkin rose— Amendment 64, page 6, line 3, leave out subsection (8). Amendment 36, page 6, line 4, leave out from ‘powers’ The Second Deputy Chairman: Does the hon. Gentleman to end of line 5. wish to press his amendment? Amendment 67, page 6, line 5, at end insert— ‘(8A) Where any criminal investigation or proceedings are Mr. Jenkin: In view of the Secretary of State’s assurances, concerned with the same or related matters which are the subject perhaps my amendment could be dealt with administratively of an investigation by the Commissioner or of a recommendation in the House rather than by legislation. I beg to ask by IPSA, the criminal investigation or proceedings shall take leave to withdraw the amendment. precedence, subject to the agreement of the House of Commons Committee on Standards and Privileges.’. The Second Deputy Chairman: It has not actually Amendment 97, page 6, line 6, leave out subsection (9). been moved. Mr. Dismore? Amendment 12, page 6, line 6, leave out ‘is, or’. Amendment 22, page 6, line 10, leave out subsection (10). Mr. Dismore: I certainly will not press my new clause to a vote now, Sir Michael. I expect that my Joint Clause stand part. Committee on Human Rights colleagues in the Lords may well table a similar amendment to ensure that the Mr. Grieve: We now come to what I think are the core matter is not overlooked. clauses, and in my judgment they start to cause considerable difficulties. I hope that the Government will look Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the constructively at ways of avoiding those difficulties, so Bill. that the Bill does what the public want—ensure that we are properly regulated, but not destroy the House’s Clause 8 ability to be independent and to carry out its job properly on behalf of the electorate.

ENFORCEMENT The clause provides a mechanism of enforcement, and subsection (1) is completely uncontroversial. It Mr. Grieve: I beg to move amendment 32, provides that page 5, line 22, leave out from ‘IPSA’ to end of line 25 “IPSA may direct a member of the House of Commons— and insert (a) to repay…within a specified time an amount paid…under the…allowances”, ‘may refer to the House of Commons Committee on Standards and Privileges any findings it may make in relation to any and, member in the exercise of its functions.’. “(b) to take any steps necessary to correct an omission or inaccuracy…in the (register of financial interests).” The Second Deputy Chairman: With this it will be I have concerns about subsection (2), however, which convenient to discuss the following: states that Amendment 17, page 5, line 25, at end insert— “IPSA may recommend to the House of Commons Committee ‘(2A) The Committee on Standards and Privileges may accept, on Standards and Privileges that the House should exercise any of modify or reject as it sees fit a recommendation under its disciplinary powers in relation to a member of the House. subsection (2).’. The IPSA may publish a recommendation that it has given.” 335 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 336

It seems quite clear from the wording that IPSA will be “Findings” refers to findings of fact. IPSA would simply able to make a specific recommendation to the Standards say to the Committee on Standards and Privileges that and Privileges Committee about how an hon. Member it had carried out an investigation, concluded that there is dealt with in respect of a transgression. That, I had been a misclaim of x thousand pounds and thought assume, includes everything from an apology in the that that should be drawn to the Committee’s attention. Chamber, through a suspension from the service of the That would be a completely neutral thing to do, because House, to—the House has exercised this once since the it would not be accompanied by any recommendation. second world war—the expulsion of a Member. The amendment would go a long way towards solving The problem is that the Standards and Privileges the problem. Committee will then have to consider whether it agrees Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): I have a with IPSA’s recommendation. If the Committee decides problem with IPSA. What would happen if the compliance to agree, any public perception that it has been influenced failure was IPSA’s failure? If a Member made a claim in by an outside body in reaching its own decision will be good faith and IPSA got it wrong, the Member would unfortunate. Of course, the Committee might decide for carry the can for IPSA. Over the past few months, a lot whatever reason that it wants to impose a different of Members have carried the can for compliance failures penalty, which need not be less severe than that which that were out of their hands. IPSA recommends. However, as the clause stands, it will embody in statute a specific reference to the Standards Mr. Grieve: It is clear from our debate on clause 7 and Privileges Committee and to its powers, and they that the actions of the commissioner and IPSA will be would then be judicially reviewable through the courts. judicially reviewable. I have made my point to the The consequence of the Committee’s powers being Minister and the Secretary of State. If we confine those judicially reviewable through the courts goes to the external regulation functions to our salaries and allowances, absolute heart of Parliament’s independence and what that might lead to judicial review proceedings but it the Bill of Rights of 1689 was all about, given its would not have a major impact on the independence of insistence that what this Parliament does cannot be Parliament in doing its work. called into question elsewhere. From the current drafting The difficulty is that, as one starts reading clause 8 of subsection (2), I really do not see how we can escape subsection by subsection, one sees that it goes further that conclusion. Indeed, it is noteworthy that witnesses and further into key functions of Parliament and its who submitted either written or oral evidence to the independence that have hitherto been regulated solely Justice Committee stated very clearly that that outcome by the Standards and Privileges Committee. They are was undesirable. Professor Dawn Oliver said: non-justiciable and are protected by the operation of “(2) may be omitted. The House would in any event be able to the Bill of Rights 1689. The House needs to concentrate exercise its disciplinary powers under existing privilege rules.” on that issue if we are to ensure that we can continue to In earlier evidence she expressed her deep concerns carry out our work properly. about the manner in which the House might proceed with a major constitutional change in respect of Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): My hon. parliamentary privilege. and learned Friend is making a powerful case. Under clause 8(6), one of IPSA’s first duties is to try to work Mr. Cash: No doubt my hon. and learned Friend has out the comprehensive muddle that the Bill is making of also read the evidence from the Clerk of the House. He the situation. It would have to prepare a statement said unequivocally that “with the agreement of the Speaker’s Committee on the Independent “clause 8(2) brings in the Standards and Privileges Committee”, Parliamentary Standards Authority” and that about how it, the commissioner, the Standards and Privileges Committee and other authorities could make “what would happen if Standards and Privileges concluded that it could not accept a recommendation from the Commissioner, sense of this complete jumble. Does that not prove that, perhaps the recommendation was too severe on the Member, the even according to the Government’s own words, the degree of punishment or whatever was being recommended, the thing is a comprehensive mess? whole matter would then have to be resolved in the courts.” Mr. Grieve: I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. There then followed further evidence from the Speaker’s It all shows how poorly thought through the Bill is. It is counsel making that position absolutely crystal clear. rushed legislation. Each of the witnesses who gave Mr. Grieve: I thank my hon. Friend for saving me the evidence—except the Clerk of the House, whose ability trouble of having to read out that very passage; I was to make such comments is a bit fettered—expressed about to move on to it, but I could not have made the horror at the speed with which the legislation was being point better than he has. Both Professor Dawn Oliver carried through. All the independent witnesses asked and the Clerk of the House have expressed the same what on earth the Government were doing in rushing concerns. It is worth reading the totality of the evidence, ahead with something of such fundamental importance including the written submissions. It is crystal clear that to the workings of democracy in this country, without clause 8 embarks on issues that go to the very heart of giving the matter some proper thought. We will have Parliament’s independence. only two hours on Report this afternoon, and there will probably be no Third Reading. Frankly, the whole thing is a scandal—but we will have to make do with what we 2.30 pm have. There is a solution. It is amendment 32, which would delete clause 8(2) and replace it with the words Mr. Hogg: Clause 8(2) relates to the recommendation “may refer to the House of Commons Committee on Standards of IPSA. We are all assuming that the recommendation and Privileges any findings it may make in relation to any member would depend on findings of fact about improprieties in the exercise of its functions.” in allowances claims or whatever, but nothing in 337 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 338

[Mr. Hogg] the failure may be punished by the House of Commons. If that is interpreted as a kind of statutory permission then there might subsection (2) confines IPSA’s recommendation to such very well be an issue as to whether the conditions of that permission a finding of fact. IPSA might well decide that although had been fulfilled. If the Commission had acted unreasonably you would not have the conditions for that permission to operate, there was no allowances impropriety, the Member needed whereas contrarily with section 8(2), if I may say so…Dr Palmer to be disciplined for other reasons. Is that what the is right to say it is simply like some other actor who says House really wants to achieve? Subsection (2) is certainly something should be done and then the Committee on Privileges couched in wide enough terms to allow that interpretation. does something. It is not a condition of the Committee of Privileges doing something that someone else has probably said Mr. Grieve: My right hon. and learned Friend makes something to it.” a good point, to which I hope the Minister will respond. It is clear that the Government should justify why any She may argue that the terms on which IPSA and the of the second part of clause 8—below subsection (2), commissioner for investigations are set up would not which I suggest should be amended—is necessary to allow them to stray too far from the main remit of our achieve the House’s functions, IPSA’s functions and the financial affairs. However, my right hon. and learned proper regulation of MPs. That part of the clause is a Friend has made a perfectly valid point, which illustrates seriously dangerous step that involves the scrutiny and some of the difficulties that we face. review in court of how the House of Commons works. Amendment 32 deals with clause 8(2), but as one We have tabled amendments. Others have tabled theirs, reads down the list of enforcement clauses, the whole and will doubtless speak to them. The hon. Member for thing becomes murkier and murkier. I wonder why Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) has tabled a really some of the subsections are there at all. They start important amendment that would take away the Standards dealing with issues relating to the punishment of Members and Privileges Committee from the protocol set out in by the House itself. Subsection (6) mentions an agreement clause 8(6). Our amendment 34 seeks to leave out between IPSA and the Speaker’s Committee on the clause 8(4), which, as far as I can see, is completely Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority on a unnecessary. There is an amendment proposing to leave protocol that requires a number of different people to out subsection (5). Each one of those needs a response work together. That protocol includes the Committee from the Minister justifying the necessity for not making on Standards and Privileges. those changes: it should not be for us to have to justify The House does not need to pause for thought for every line that we are trying to take out. long to appreciate that if the Committee on Standards If the Minister is wise, and the Government are wise, and Privileges remains included in subsection (6) it will this clause in its entirety can be substantially altered. inevitably be embroiled in court proceedings about its She will then find that the Government have met their functions and independence. That would drive a coach objectives of enabling IPSA to carry out its investigation and horses through the Bill of Rights 1689 and what it and report to the Standards and Privileges Committee, was designed to achieve. leave it to the Committee, under our present powers, to The protocol must be judicially reviewable, and it implement whatever sanctions are necessary, and avoid concerns relations with the Director of Public Prosecutions the extraordinary mish-mash in the provisions as drafted, and—wait for it—the Commissioner of Police of the which will drag the House of Commons and its procedures Metropolis. I gently point out that a past incumbent of into the courts. that post was subject to comment about the infringement Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I am looking at of the privileges of the House in respect of the problems subsection (9). Would the hon. and learned Gentleman faced by my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford expect that, if there were criminal proceedings against (), a matter currently under investigation. an MP,in order to avoid double jeopardy the commissioner As one goes through clause 8, one asks oneself what in and IPSA should not be investigating the MP at the it is really necessary for achieving IPSA’s main functions. same time for the same complaint? Mr. Llwyd: I am a member of the Standards and Mr. Grieve: There are clearly potential issues of double Privileges Committee, and we have always transacted jeopardy. Double jeopardy is a rather complicated subject, our business in complete confidentiality. That will not and once we start putting it on a statutory basis we run be the case if we are subject to judicial review; all our much more risk of landing ourselves in the sands than papers and dealings and all the matters that we transact under the current procedures. The hon. Gentleman will become public. Would anybody wish to be on a makes a perfectly reasonable point, but given the limited Committee dealing with such matters if those things time that I have had to scrutinise the detail of the Bill, I were subject to outside scrutiny by the courts? I doubt do not have the answer. it. The change will definitely hamper the Committee’s I hope that the Minister is able to answer those business. questions, and I look forward to hearing from her.

Mr. Grieve: I agree with the hon. Gentleman and I go Mr. Redwood: I rise to support my hon. and learned back to the evidence given yesterday to the Justice Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) in all Committee by the Speaker’s Counsel; I refer to page 33 that he says about the detail of the amendments, which of the transcription. He was asked to highlight his areas would go some way towards abating the problems with of concern about clause 8. He contrasted clause 8(2), on clause 8, and in what he says in general about the need which I have touched and whose necessity has been to keep Parliament in charge of disciplining Members questioned, with clause 8(5): of Parliament. “clause 8(2) is not really saying anything about the basis of the I find the wide-ranging debate that the Government powers for the Committee on Standards and Privileges to act…I have opened up on this clause and this Bill quite think clause 8(5) might be saying something because it says that extraordinary. I have not heard any criticism of the 339 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 340

Committee on Standards and Privileges. I have never and Privileges must continue without being messed heard of a great public controversy because it was doing up—without being subject to judicial review and intrusions its job badly. We have not been told that its justice has that would not make it fairer or better but might make been inadequate. We have not felt that people have been its work more difficult. hard done by under it. We have not felt that those who David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): The right hon. deserved to be punished have gone unpunished. It is not Gentleman raises an important point about clause 8(6). an issue. It is extraordinary that we are being asked to Surely the crucial question is this: could the protocol overturn that and to make the Committee subsidiary to that is drawn up by IPSA end up giving obligations to an outside body when there is no case against it and no everybody else on the list? If so, it is extraordinary that charge sheet that anyone has heard about. I would like IPSA should give obligations not only to the House of to concentrate on the need, as my hon. and learned Commons Committee but to the DPP and the police. Friend said, to recast the clause, if it has to stay at all, in Surely that is a complete violation of the separation of a way that deals with the big issue of how IPSA appears powers. to be superior to the Committee on Standards and Privileges and how it seems to have overturned the Bill Mr. Redwood: It is. of Rights. My reading of the drafting suggests that none of this If we look at subsection (6), we can see that the is subject to parliamentary approval. IPSA needs the Government themselves acknowledge that the clause is agreement of the Speaker’s Committee, but we are not a comprehensive muddle and a huge mess. As currently told what happens if the Speaker’s Committee does not drafted, it does not make clear the relative powers and agree. IPSA could publish and try to assert its view responsibilities of IPSA vis-à-vis the commissioner or regardless, because it appears that it is primus inter the House of Commons Committee on Standards and pares in these matters. No procedure is set down for Privileges. The subsection invites us to agree to a form reconciling disputes between the Speaker’s Committee of words whereby, although we know as legislators that and IPSA. The implication is that once IPSA has published, it will not work in its current form and that the Government preferably with the agreement of the Speaker’s Committee, have not had time to work out how it might function, then that is the statement from which not only this we would ask IPSA to consult the Speaker’s Committee House but the courts, if they become involved, will have on the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority to operate. in preparing a statement saying how all these different That is totally unacceptable. We are being asked to bodies could work together smoothly and harmoniously override not only the Standards and Privileges Committee in a way that ensured that no difficult case fell between but our own law-making powers by delegating a crucial the gaps and that people were not put through double element in how this complex and bureaucratic system is and triple jeopardy for no good reason. Under the list in going to work to a draft from IPSA that it could not that subsection, IPSA has to consult the commissioner, possibly undertake for several months until we know the House of Commons Committee on Standards and who the chief executive is and that person has a staff Privileges, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the who can get to work and take advice. Presumably they Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, the Speaker’s would then come to see right hon. and hon. Members Committee on the Independent Parliamentary Standards from the Standards and Privileges Committee. However, Authority, and any other person that they may have as the drafting makes clear, they do not have to take the forgotten about. We can see what an absurd, burgeoning view of those Members—they can come up with their bureaucracy this is. own independent view and assert that. For all those reasons, I hope that the Minister will Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): My right realise that this proposal is impractical and cumbersome, hon. Friend is making a powerful argument. Am I right that it cannot work, that it will delay justice rather than in thinking, in parliamentary drafting terms, that because give justice, and that it will make the House of Commons IPSA has been put at the top of the list it has priority in look ridiculous rather than showing that we take these its duties over others? matters seriously. The overriding of procedures that have worked well is symbolic of a Government who love to railroad their way through traditional institutions 2.45 pm that are already functioning in the name of modernisation Mr. Redwood: I am not a legal expert, but I would without thinking about the difficult consequences that read it in that sense. It seems that IPSA is being asked to my follow. This will not produce more justice or a better take on the main burden and to be the main initiator. administered Parliament; nor will it deal with cases that I would have thought that given its wisdom and the present system would not otherwise deal with. It is a experience, the Committee on Standards and Privileges recipe for disaster. should be the guiding body. Many right hon. and hon. Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) (Lab): The Members have given or are giving good service to that most painful part of this situation is that we are all now Committee. Several amendments drafted by those who having to confront the reality of the relationship between have been working on it have already been accepted by Government and Parliament. Over the years, all of the Government in the realisation that that experience us—certainly me, in the past 20 years—have subjected is necessary. The Government should take this clause ourselves to an incredible amount of self-delusion in away and ask the Committee how it thinks it could best thinking that the House of Commons actually meant be phrased to preserve these two fundamental points: something, that its powers were important, that it was first, that Parliament must be sovereign, as the Bill of somehow, if not an equal partner, then at least an Rights rightly asserted, so that the people’s rights are elderly uncle whose advice could be taken seriously and preserved in this Chamber; and secondly, that the good had some impact on the parliamentary process and the work and experience of the Committee on Standards legislative process. 341 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 342

[Mr. Graham Allen] then return here, and I hope that at that point, those of us who have been in the Chamber for these debates will What the Government are now doing is honestly, take up the challenge. There have been incredible although perhaps not deliberately, stripping away from contributions from all parts of the House, which I hope Members of the House any last illusions that they had will be studied in detail in years to come as evidence of about the pathetic nature of the parliamentary branch some of the days when Parliament said no to this of government, by not even allowing that misconception process. I hope that we ensure that all colleagues understand to continue. They are placing in statute, in clause 8 and what the consequences will be if we allow provisions other clauses, the fact that the House of Commons is at such as clause 8 to go through unamended. best a supplicant to Government. Mr. Hogg: I have just a brief point. I agree entirely I am reminded strongly of the process that has taken with what the hon. Gentleman is saying. We are establishing place under all Governments, and been suffered by all an important precedent that could be invoked time and parties, of the atrophy of local government. It was time again by future Governments. We need to be chary never established in a written constitution, and it never about doing that, because it will be a declaration about had independence, but in many regards it used to have a the relationship that Parliament deems that it has with degree of separation and functions distinct from national our external authorities. Government. Over a period of 20, 30 or possibly more years we have all seen, and those of us with experience Mr. Allen: Indeed, and the louder the Government in local government have felt at the sharp end, what has talk about democratising the House of Commons, the happened to our local government. Those who care more careful we ought to be to study the legislation that about our democracy have seen it, too. Through perhaps comes forward. There is talk about reforming the House 40 or 50 Acts of Parliament, the ability of local government through a Select Committee, for example, but at the to act independently has been stripped or sliced away. moment there is no resolution to establish such a Now, virtually everything at local level is guided by Committee, and no terms of reference that command statute, by central Government and by the man in agreement throughout the House have yet been on the Whitehall. Order Paper. In essence, that is now our fate. Our role is being There is ever stronger rhetoric about rebuilding our prescribed in a way that was never the case before democracy, but of course the rhetoric can be belied by because we did not want to disturb the people in the the lack of means to create that democracy. Indeed, the House of Commons or have crowd control difficulties. very means to undermine it further may be in front of We wanted them to believe the mythology of parliamentary us, but some of us may be missing them because of the sovereignty. Just as local government’s sovereignty is a loudness of the rhetoric about increasing and improving thing of the past—we are all poorer for that, although our democracy. many of us acquiesced in it—so parliamentary sovereignty is being condemned to the dustbin of history, not even Mr. Redwood: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for with a nod and a wink but by statute. his work over a sustained period to try to get the House We let that go at our peril. I am not necessarily to take more power over the Executive. Does he agree suggesting that today is the day when we can halt the that it makes for better government if Ministers see the process, but we will rely upon the other place, and upon need to come to the House early and have things the Government themselves to retreat to some extent exposed to proper debate, as I hope they will with this when they bring the Bill back to this House. We are Bill? relying on them to improve this dog’s breakfast of a hurried, precipitate piece of legislation, caused by our Mr. Allen: That is a measure of the fear with which fear of what the media have managed to concoct and Governments unnecessarily view this House. If we have reveal about goings-on in this place. I hope that the a strong House of Commons and a strong Parliament, Government will retreat from some of the more extreme Government themselves are the main beneficiary. We things that we see in the Bill. If they do not, that have better value for money, better legislation and more point—it may be only a couple of weeks away—will be public involvement, and it does not require eight efforts a real watershed for our democracy. to get child support legislation right. At least once a year we try to get the criminal justice system right. We should have proper pre-legislative and post-legislative Mr. Gerald Howarth: The hon. Gentleman is making scrutiny, yet there are those in government who run in an extremely important point. These are vital issues for fear of that, wishing instead to have legislation drafted the future of Parliament. I put it to him that this matter by unelected officials in their Departments and rubber- cannot be resolved in another place, because there are stamped by the House. We all lose in that deal, and we issues of privilege. My hon. Friend the Member for could all win in a deal whereby a strong Executive had Stone (Mr. Cash) and my hon. and learned Friend the self-confidence and the judgment to take the view of the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) articulated them House when it had been properly and responsibly expressed. better than I can. This House will have to resolve the The only greater beneficiary than the Government would matter, and if it cedes authority, it will be finished as the be the British people. supreme legislating authority in this land. Mr. Cash: On the drafting of legislation, to which the Mr. Allen: I am not suggesting that we should rely hon. Gentleman has rightly referred, the evidence that upon the other place, but even the fact that the Lords has been heard in the past few days has had alarming will have had a few more days to read the Bill, which I characteristics. The most obvious is that first parliamentary suspect colleagues in this place have not done, will allow counsel appears to have prepared the memorandum them to table some serious amendments. The Bill will upon which the so-called Lord High Chancellor and 343 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 344

Secretary of State for Justice is relying. It is clear that tough enough. In the speech that the Leader of the there is a complete difference of opinion between the House made a few days ago, she referred to the long Clerk of the House and first parliamentary counsel. time that had elapsed since someone was expelled. My Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that ought to hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield worry people a great deal? (Mr. Grieve) did not make it clear that the Standards and Privileges Committee simply makes recommendations Mr. Allen: I do not want to stray too far from the on the tariff to the House. It is open to any Member clause, but one day, when we have a self-respecting and and to the Government to amend the tariffs recommended self-confident Parliament, we will have our own by the Standards and Privileges Committee if they parliamentary draftspeople and our own right to legal think that they are too lenient or too tough. advice on going to war or whatever it may be. We will I believe that we could achieve some of the Government’s have our own capabilities to transform the legislative objectives, not by dismantling the machinery, but by framework. At the moment, we have an Executive who re-examining the tariff. If there is a general view that we are not directly elected by the British people taking the are not being tough enough, we can tackle that without advice of a civil service that has no familiarity whatever the proposed paraphernalia. with the ballot box. Members of this House are being overseen by people who have no understanding of electoral Mr. Walker: When a Member is suspended, even for politics and our democracy, but who decide on the as little as two weeks, that can effectively end their rights of Members. Those rights have been sacred—perhaps political career, as happened only recently. too sacred, but they have been in place for many years. I hope that colleagues will press their case to the Secretary of State, and that he will take away the expressions of Sir George Young: All we have are our reputations, anxiety that he has heard in the past day or so—and will which can be destroyed by a critical report from my hear until the end of the day—and rework the Bill so Committee. That has happened many times. The that it does what we all thought it intended to do: create reputational hit is not fully understood outside the a strong parliamentary standards authority to ensure House. that abuses that have happened in the past cannot Clause 8 tries to make the Standards and Privileges happen in future. As part of that, it should construct a Committee the agent of an outside body. The moment much broader framework, so that our legislature, rather we do that, we run into all sorts of difficulties, which the than becoming a quango, an advisory body or a quaint Clerk of the House identified in his memorandum. but withered part of our constitutional arrangements, One cannot make us the agent of an outside body, as can play not only the role that it fulfilled in years gone subsection (2) would do, without running into all the by, but an important role in rebuilding our democracy constitutional difficulties that we outlined. and people’s trust, which has been so sorely tested in the Amendment 32, which my hon. Friend the Member past month or two. for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) tabled, would remove IPSA’s power to recommend to my Committee 3pm the application of a particular sanction. For that, it Sir George Young: The shadow of the guillotine is substitutes a power to refer its findings to the Committee. beginning to fall over our debate, so I will not follow up That would broadly replicate the current position, whereby the very interesting speech of the hon. Member for the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards reports Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen), with whom I agree his findings to the Standards and Privileges Committee, about many parliamentary matters, but focus on issues which then determines the appropriate sanction. I support that directly concern the Committee on Standards and that amendment because it replicates, as far as possible, Privileges and enforcement. the current position. I remind the House that my Committee I want to pick up the comment of my right hon. has said that it would be prepared to have lay members Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood), serving on it if that helped solve the problem that the who said that the aspect of the Bill that we are considering Government identified of our being somehow out of is not the problem. The problem has not been the touch with the outside world. Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards and the Amendment 12 would remove the provision that Standards and Privileges Committee. We operate allows the new commissioner to conduct an investigation downstream, and the problems have been upstream, into a case that is simultaneously the subject of criminal with processing and making claims. We do not process proceedings—the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob claims; we process complaints, and I believe that that Spink) made a point about that—while leaving in place part of the system has operated well. the provision that allows him to carry out an investigation The system was set up some 14 or 15 years ago—it is into a case that has already been the subject of such tried and tested and has been improved. The House has proceedings. That is crucial. We cannot have a position been well served by Philip Mawer and now by John whereby a Member is subject to competing jurisdictions Lyon. The Committee on which I serve has tried to for the same offence. He cannot have his collar felt by operate the rules of the House dispassionately and the and the Parliamentary fairly. In his evidence to the Committee on Standards in Commissioner for Standards at the same time. Public Life, which is now sitting, Anthony King said Perhaps I can leave the amendments that the hon. that that part of the system works quite well. Clause 8 Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) has tabled would dismantle it at breakneck speed and try to replace to him to consider. I have some sympathy with amendment it. By doing that at speed, one may not get it right. 19, which deletes subsection (6). That would deal with The Government are trying to fetter the discretion of the problem that my hon. and learned Friend the Member the Standards and Privileges Committee because they for Beaconsfield outlined. If subsection (6) is to remain, believe that the tariffs that we have operated are not we must knock out the reference to the Speaker’s 345 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 346

[Sir George Young] sovereignty of Parliament in relation to parliamentary standards and the privileges and rights of Members Committee. The Committee on Standards and Privileges than they have been in relation to the wider interests of should be responsible for drawing up the protocol; it is their constituents and the citizens of the United Kingdom. nothing to do with the Speaker’s Committee, which is So let us get real all round. It is not just the Executive solely concerned with appointing and spending plans, who have questions to answer; all of us have questions not procedure. that we should perhaps ask of ourselves and that we I have genuine anxieties about the implications of the should answer. Bill. The way through is to follow the path laid out by Amendment 32 is sensible. The idea of the authority my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield, making recommendations and just giving them to the which avoids some of the complications that he rightly Standards and Privileges Committee on a hand-me-down identified. basis seems crude and excessive. Amendment 32 would deal with that, thereby obviating the need for Mark Durkan: The hon. Member for Nottingham, amendments 17 and 65, which would seem to be sensible. North (Mr. Allen) made some significant points, many Some of the other amendments, however, I am not so of which arise in the context of clause 8. Of course, sure about. Amendment 34 would mean leaving out many go much further, too. clause 8(4), which would in turn mean leaving out In our debates, we keep coming up against the “there’s subsection (5). I do not know that it would be right to a hole in my bucket, dear Liza” syndrome. We claim leave those two subsections out. There would then be a that we want to create an independent parliamentary hole in the procedures and a hole in the Bill, although standards authority, yet, at every turn, we assert the some fine-tuning may still be needed. sovereignty of Parliament and say that there must be a Mr. Grieve: It is very simple: if the hon. Gentleman dual control brake on anything that IPSA or an investigator reads the report of the Select Committee on Justice, he might do. We need to get real. The public feel little will see that everything after clause 8(4) does nothing to about the sovereignty of Parliament, which we value add to the regulatory powers of the IPSA, but everything and discuss here, but are very angry about the avarice of to undermine the independence of this House. By taking parliamentarians, as they perceive it and as has been out one, the rest fall down like a domino, and that is represented over past months. People want to know why it should go. that we will allow any independent standards authority that we create to be independent. Yes, we should ensure Mark Durkan: That is also why, if people think that that there cannot be excesses and that there are limits. we have to be cautious, because the legislation has been We must also ensure protection for Members’ rights brought forward in haste, I would be cautious about and reputations, individually and collectively. Several demolishing parts of it in haste. We need to consider sensible amendments have been tabled about that, and whether we are getting the tuning of the Bill exactly some are in the group that we are considering. right. Mr. Gerald Howarth: We all understand the public Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) anger, but we cannot simply have a knee-jerk reaction—I (LD): I can understand the hon. Gentleman’s caution. see the Justice Secretary frowning, unusually. If we In particular, he was right to remind the House of the understand the significance of parliamentary sovereignty importance of the independent handling of expenses, and the public do not, and we knowingly impair it, we salaries and finances. However, if we are cautious about will damage hugely the interests of our constituents and what we allow to go through in the Bill, so that it our ability to serve them. It is nothing to do with focuses on that core function, but then decide after protecting us, but with safeguarding the fundamental more consideration that there are other functions or rights of the British people and our powers in this place ways in which we want to go further, that it is surely to represent them. We must not allow the Bill to impair safer than allowing things to creep through in the Bill that fundamental principle. If we do so, we do grave that are dangerous or have risks attached, and then damage to our constituents. repenting at leisure as we try to sort them all out.

Mark Durkan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that Mark Durkan: I fully agree. Indeed, I have supported point. None of us wants to do damage to the sovereignty a number of amendments and, even in this bunch, there of Parliament. However, we will not help the reputation are a number that I would support and some that, if of Parliament if we respond to every measure to try to adopted, would make the need for others disappear. restore credibility and public confidence by simply boasting However, I worry that some of the amendments would about the sovereignty of Parliament. I have heard more go so far as to leave a significant hole in the Bill. That from some hon. Members about the sovereignty of might provide a site for which planning permission Parliament and about standing up to the Executive and could be given to do more things in relation to other not being cowed in relation to this Bill than I heard in issues. However, I would prefer to hear from the Justice relation to measures such as the Counter-Terrorism Secretary or the Deputy Leader of the House before Act 2008, when Parliament really should have asserted drawing those full conclusions. itself and when a lot of people should, in good conscience, On clause 8(6), we definitely need some provisions in have known that something was wrong. The same goes respect of a protocol, but I believe that subsection (6) is for identity cards. I have heard people today celebrating wrong as drafted. I do not go as far as the hon. and what has happened, yet they were willing to be whipped learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), in saying into voting for them and all the rest of it, so let us be a that it is a recipe for disaster or that the sky will fall, in bit more real about some of these issues. It seems that the way that he colourfully suggested it would. However, some people are a bit more assiduous in protecting the perhaps we have all missed something. Perhaps we 347 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 348 should have amended subsection (6), so that it said that of independent regulation out of the Bill. The scheme IPSA and the Speaker’s committee or the Standards that I propose with the amendments standing in my and Privileges Committee would seek to agree protocols name would mean that the process of independent with “the following”. Instead, subsection (6) says that regulation would become privileged itself. We should IPSA will prepare a statement or a protocol on how put an envelope of privilege round the entirety of the “the following” will work together. That means not just Bill’s operation, with the exception of the criminal how “the following” will work with IPSA and somebody offences, which is another matter that I shall not try to else, but how “the following” will work together. It address. However, the principle is that privilege should therefore seems that something needs to be done about envelope the entire Bill. subsection (6). Therefore, my amendment 65 proposes a new Mr. Jenkin: I will endeavour to be as brief as possible, subsection (2A) of clause 8, which reads: Mrs. Heal. I beg to move amendments 65, 66, 64— “Any recommendation under subsection (2)”— I am led to understand that that would also mean any The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia direction under subsection (1)— Heal): Order. Perhaps I should remind the hon. Gentleman “shall be deemed to be proceedings in Parliament as expressed in that we are actually discussing amendment 32. He can the Bill of Rights 1689 notwithstanding any other provisions of speak to those amendments, but they do not need to be this Act.” moved at this point. That would have the effect of making the activities under clause 8 privileged—that is, beyond question by Mr. Jenkin: I am out of practice again, Mrs. Heal. I the courts, so that they could take in evidence what wish to speak to amendments 65, 66, 64 and 67, which Members of Parliament had said in this place, because relate to privilege and should be read in conjunction their proceedings would be privileged. There would with amendment 94, which will be debated under clause then be no question of any of our proceedings leaking 10, should we get that far. into the jurisdiction of the courts outside Parliament. I have also proposed a similar amendment to clause 7, for 3.15 pm debate on Report, which would mean that all investigations The importance of privilege was underlined by the would be regarded as proceedings in Parliament. learned Clerk in the evidence that he gave yesterday. It is My amendment 64 would remove clause 8(8). I have well to remind ourselves of the purpose of privilege. He read subsection (8) many times, but I simply do not said: quite understand what it means. It seems to me to have “If there was not that freedom” been drafted highly ambiguously—although that probably of speech, means that parliamentary counsel are much cleverer “Parliament could not…function effectively.” people than I. However, even the explanatory notes say He said later: that subsection (8) “I think the traditional view in this country, the United States “preserves the right of the House of Commons to exercise any and a lot of other countries, is that if speech is not free in the disciplinary powers which it may have.” House of Commons, it is not free anywhere…we are not unique I do not know why we need to legislate in the Bill to by any means. All systems have immunities and they are recognised.” allow a sovereign House of Commons to continue to Most importantly of all, he made it clear that exercise its own disciplinary powers. Why is that in the “if you start to make exceptions to parliamentary privilege for Bill? one reason or another, under one Act or another, eventually you The explanatory notes continue: will undermine the whole principle.” “It is not to be limited to acting only following an investigation The Chairman then said: by the Commissioner or a recommendation from the IPSA.” “The earlier decisions to do this are now being adduced in support of the current proposals,” If we believe that we are sovereign, how could any implication in the Bill limit what the House of Commons to which the learned Clerk answered yes. That is why we does? The very fact that the Government have sought to should tackle the question of privilege in these debates. put this provision into the Bill at all underlines the Mr. Edward Garnier (Harborough) (Con): Is not the weakness of their case that so much of this is justiciable: short point that the only thing that stands between the they are putting provisions in legislation to try to prevent people and arbitrary government is this Chamber? If the actions of the House from becoming justiciable and we undermine the position of this House in that relationship, limited. we open up the possibility of dictatorship, arbitrary Mr. Straw: I am listening to the hon. Gentleman with government and misconduct in government. If we lose some care, but if I may say so, I think he is making a bit sight of that, we might as well give up. of meal of subsection (8), which is there for clarification. Mr. Jenkin: I wholeheartedly agree with my hon. and That is its purpose, although I would be happy to give it learned Friend. I would submit that, not by virtue of further consideration, if necessary. the erosion of our sovereignty but by virtue of the Mr. Garnier: I thought we were on clause 8. imposition of whipping—the whipping on this Bill on the Government Benches is an example of that—the Mr. Straw: I thought we were on clause 8 as well. House of Commons is not losing its sovereignty, but simply giving away our influence. We should use this Mr. Jenkin: I will move on as swiftly as I can. opportunity to wrest it back. My amendment 67 addresses the question of what I support the principle of independent regulation. should take precedence. Even if there is, as I propose, an Indeed, I do not think that anyone speaking in this envelope of privilege around the entire activities of debate has suggested that we should take the principle IPSA and the commissioner, there would still need to be 349 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 350

[Mr. Jenkin] of redress would be somewhat diminished if our proceedings were to be interpreted elsewhere and a determination of some means of deferring to criminal proceedings if they them made elsewhere. That would certainly destroy the were in progress. It is in any case something that we do essence and basis of the House of Commons as we automatically on an administrative basis within the know it, which would do a great disservice to past House. The amendment proposes: generations and also to future generations of “Where any criminal investigation or proceedings are concerned parliamentarians. with the same or related matters which are the subject of an I am grateful to Dr. Malcolm Jack and the Clerks for investigation by the Commissioner or of a recommendation by IPSA, the criminal investigation or proceedings shall take precedence”, putting together a very important and significant document to deal with the problem. If I may, I will happily andIadd, paraphrase liberally what it says. As I understand clause 8, “subject to the agreement of the House of Commons Committee which deals with enforcement, it raises a number of on Standards and Privileges”, questions of principle relating to privilege. Clause 8(2) which should surely be the final arbiter of such a case. identifies recommendations to the Committee on Standards Finally, I shall briefly refer to amendment 94, which I and Privileges that would be covered by parliamentary appreciate is in a different group. It would amend privilege, but if the Committee declined to act on a clause 10, and it states: recommendation, it could presumably become the basis “Where proceedings of the IPSA and proceedings of the of legal proceedings in which the Commissioner, or Commissioner arise from section 7 (investigations), section 8 someone else, sought to require the Committee to comply. (enforcement) or section 9 (offences), they shall be deemed to be In my humble and respectful submission, Mrs. Heal, it proceedings in Parliament in accordance with Article IX of the is not enough to argue that clause 8(2) speaks only of a Bill of Rights 1689.” recommendation, as the extent to which a reasonable My amendments may be imperfectly drafted and they recommendation should be accepted would itself become may not create a perfect envelope around the activities a matter for determination by the courts and a matter of that need to be enveloped, but I honestly believe that interpretation. they provide a solution to the Secretary of State’s Clause 8(5) appears to make the exercise by the problem. He wants independent regulation, he wants House of its disciplinary powers a matter of statute, the independent regulator to be able to look at all the since it seems to confer on the House a statutory evidence, and he wants the commission to be able to permission to exercise those powers in the circumstances conduct investigations as freely as possible, but he really provided for in the subsection. If the circumstances in does not want the courts interfering with these processes which the House may exercise disciplinary powers became and he does not want to provide an avenue for the a question of law, it would then be open to challenge courts to look at what has been happening in Parliament before the courts. There are a number of examples that and to have a chilling effect on free speech. I could provide here, but I am aware of the guillotine on If my amendments are accepted, along with those in our proceedings and I would not wish to delay the the name of my hon. and learned Friend the Member Committee in its consideration of my amendments and for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) that strike out the final others. It could be argued, however, that it is only the subsection of clause 10, we will have created a perfect “failure” under clause 8(4) and no other, that may be envelope to allow the Bill to go forward—enveloped by punishable by the House. That would be a question privilege exactly as I believe the Secretary of State requiring determination by the courts. intends, but as the Bill fails to deliver at the moment, which is completely unacceptable. Clause 8(6) requires IPSA to prepare a protocol on how IPSA, the Commissioner, the House of Commons Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): I am grateful, Committee on Standards and Privileges, the Director of Mrs. Heal, for the opportunity to participate in the Public Prosecutions, the Commissioner of Police of the debate on what the hon. and learned Member for Metropolis, and any other person whom IPSA considers Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) has said is possibly the heart appropriate, are going to work with each other. Given of the Bill. I shall speak to amendments 18 to 21, which the various examples of the intervention of the police in I tabled. our precincts and their involvement in politics over the The essence of this part of the Bill, as the hon. last few years, I am not entirely sure that the Commissioner Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) has said, is the of Police of the Metropolis will be very enthusiastic Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, which about embracing that concept. I would not imagine, or is not a matter of question in the House, as it has been dare to suppose, what the Director of Public Prosecutions fully accepted and agreed by the parties themselves as would say to that, either. It is not clear to me whether well as by the party leaders. What has been a cause for this is meant to impose any obligation on any of the concern is the determination of privilege in this House, parties to observe the protocol. Again, this will be a and particularly whether it should stay within its precincts question of law to be determined by the courts. If it or whether, in line with Congress in the US, it can be imposes an obligation—and there seems little point in subordinated to the Supreme Court in that case, or to having such a protocol unless it does impose some sort the courts of law in our case. It has always been my view of obligation—it raises the question of whether IPSA that conveying parliamentary privileges to the courts should be entitled to bind a Committee of the House as for them to determine our actions, our speeches, our to how it is to conduct its own work. An analogous proceedings in Committee and the like not only destroys issue arises for the DPP in the exercise of his discretions the essential pillar of our democracy—the pillar that as to whether proceedings should be fettered. protects to the Member of Parliament on the Floor of I believe that there are dangers in this enforcement this House—but prevents a Member from seeking to clause. It could lead to litigation, or constrain the defend the constituents who sent him here. The principle House in the use of other sanctions that might be 351 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 352 regarded as disciplinary. The issue of a formal reprimand moving slowly towards a rule—the supremacy of the and a formal requirement for an apology are within the courts—with certain exceptions based on parliamentary powers of the House, but are not covered. The clause privilege. There is a very strong difference between might also prevent the House from adopting other those two concepts. sanctions required by certain circumstances. The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield mentioned some Mr. Llwyd: That is absolutely true. If we meddle with of the sanctions currently available to the Committee parliamentary privilege we shall start a torrent of litigation, on Standards and Privileges: for example, the ability to and, more to the point, we shall find that we are unable ban a Member from the use of certain facilities of the to do the work that we should be doing on behalf of our House. constituents. I intend my amendments to help the House to preserve As I said yesterday, and as Members know, we sometimes its privileges and to avoid a determination of those hide behind the cloak of privilege. We do it rarely, but privileges by the courts. we do it to good purpose when an overbearing person or company treads on an innocent constituent who is Mr. Llwyd: When I speak about privilege, I do not do unable to fight back. We can often redress the balance so as a member of any kind of club. It is the privilege of in this place, but we shall soon find that we are unable the people whom I represent that I am defending today, to do that if our deliberations become subject to the law rather than anything to do with me personally or with of the land. If that power were abused I would say, any other Member. Similarly, when we talk about “Fine, let’s get rid of it,” but it is not abused. It is an sovereignty we are talking about the sovereignty of the essential tool for us as parliamentarians, and we should people, and we should hold that sacrosanct as well. not allow anyone to start chipping away at it. Amendment 32 deals with the issue sensibly. It preserves 3.30 pm the role of the Committee on Standards and Privileges. Although I speak as a member of that Committee, I In evidence submitted in a memorandum yesterday, think that it has done a good job. I echo what was said Professor Dawn Oliver of University college earlier by its Chairman, the right hon. Member for said: North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young). I hope “I am afraid my general reaction is that the issues about MPs’ that if the amendment is pressed to a Division, Members salaries, allowances and standards are too important to be dealt will see fit to support it, in the best interests of this place with in a bill rushed through Parliament without any prior and, more importantly, in those of their constituents. consultations, Green Papers, etc., especially since the Committee on Standards in Public Life is considering some of the issues Sir Robert Smith: I shall speak briefly, because we covered by the Bill along with others.” must try to reach clause 10 somehow, although I fear Viewing the reality of the situation, however, she went that in view of the way in which this debate is proceeding, on to say: we shall not manage to do so. “Having made those points I assume that much of the Bill will All the speeches so far have been extremely important, be passed, and my remaining points are on details and how some and have focused effectively on the issues at stake. The of the problems about parliamentary privilege might be avoided. I go through the Bill clause by clause.” message to the Government is that we should have been allowed more time to scrutinise the legislation properly, On clause 8, she said: and the message to the other place is that it will have to “(2) may be omitted. The House would in any event be able to work very hard to ensure that we do not let slip anything exercise its disciplinary powers under existing privilege rules. that we should not have let slip. As has been said, when (4) (5) are unnecessary. The House has these powers anyway. we talk about protecting privilege we are talking about (6) amend to omit (c). Under (f) it is obvious the IPSA will the privilege of our constituents. It is extremely important consult HC bodies. to remember that. (8) is unnecessary. If omitted (10) is unnecessary. Both should As the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) reminded be omitted. us, we must acknowledge the context of the wider (11) would be unnecessary if the above measures are omitted debate: the fact that we need to rejuvenate by introducing as suggested.” the external handling of allowances, expenses and finances. Members might consider that a rather iconoclastic and We should not go too far too quickly, however, and do Luddite response to the Bill, but it comes from a professor other damage to the way in which this House works. In of constitutional law who knows a thing or two about the long run, we do need major reforms: constitutional the field that we are discussing. reform, such as a proper written constitution, and other In the interests of brevity I shall concentrate on ways to tackle issues that come before the House. That amendment 32, which I regard as a very elegant way of is not going to happen in Committee today, however. achieving what the learned professor wanted. I think Therefore, I urge the House to support amendment 32 that we are trading on extremely dangerous ground. We and to take on board the wise words of the right hon. are driving a coach and horses through the constitution Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) of this place. I do not say that through any love of this about protecting the role of his Committee. place. The hon. Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) I urge Members to make sure that the Bill remains made some very good points, and I want to align my focused on the key political imperative of addressing position with his. the aspects of this House that the public have concerns about. It should not go wider than that at this stage. We Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): The hon. should look at other issues in more measured times; Gentleman has put his finger on what concerns me. At thereby we can ensure that we do not do any more present we have a rule called parliamentary privilege, to damage that could undermine the workings of the which there are certain exceptions. We are in danger of House. If we were to do such damage, undoing it 353 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 354

[Sir Robert Smith] and one of the bodies on which this Bill will impose obligations is the Standards and Privileges Committee. would be almost impossible. It is therefore very It is wrong that that should be done in a protocol drawn important that the Bill remain narrow in focus—and up by an external body. If the Bill is intended to bind that is even more important given this short debate, and this House in this way, that should be openly admitted the lack of time. by those on the Treasury Bench. Of course, our Committees work to rules in Standing Orders, but this Bill means Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: Hon. Members in all parts of that they will obtain instructions in a protocol drawn up the House are making valiant attempts to improve this by other people. If that is intended, it should be admitted. part of the Bill. I support most of the amendments, but If it is not intended, it should be withdrawn. this is essentially a fruitless exercise because we are trying to improve a Bill that is irretrievably broken. The Mr. Walker: Over the past 17 years, whenever there debate we have had on this clause highlights that; it has been a crisis of confidence in this country, Parliament shows the problems caused when an attempt to fix the has created a quango. We are now reaping what we have allowances system becomes, during the course of the sown because we are creating a super-quango to regulate Bill’s passage, an attempt to reform large chunks of the ourselves, and that is a retrograde and extremely worrying British constitution. If that was the aim, it should have step. I say to the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) been admitted right at the start, and the attempt to that of course the public are concerned when we seem achieve it should have been approached with due humility to get on our high horse about sovereignty— and after a good deal of deliberation. Instead, we are Mr. Straw: The hon. Gentleman says that this body now stumbling around the constitution, touching on will be a super-quango. He may wish to describe it very delicate matters of immunities, rights and privileges. pejoratively as such, but may I remind him that on If such reforms are necessary, they should be the subject 10 June his own party leader actively supported its of an entirely different piece of legislation. establishment? What we are doing in this Bill is setting up new bodies and creating new appointments with new powers and Mr. Walker: The Secretary of State makes my argument responsibilities, but the relationships between them all beautifully. This is a House matter, and I am raising my are very unclear. They overlap, and they conflict in a concerns as a Member of Parliament who is defending number of important respects. That is very well illustrated the sovereignty that goes with being an MP and that by subsection (6), under which this entire matter is to be belongs to my constituents. I do not think that the postponed to a “protocol” to be drawn up by one of the British public really despise us because of our expenses— new bodies—the super-quango itself, IPSA—to try to that situation is a manifestation of their frustrations; find a way of ordering the relationships between the they despise us because we have become supine lickspittles, bodies, both old and new. If the protocol is to be who are more concerned with sucking up to the Executive effective, it will have to be an extraordinarily long than with representing the public’s views in this place. document. We are in grave danger of handing— I do not know who in IPSA will do this work, as I do The First Deputy Chairman: Order. I wonder whether not know what the staffing arrangements will be, but the hon. Gentleman is going to continue with his remarks they are going to have to try to order the relationship in relation to amendment 32. between the police and this House, for instance. We all know that that is a very difficult matter and we glimpsed Mr. Walker: I just wish to support my Front-Bench that in the police raid on an hon. Member’s office. One colleagues in introducing their amendment. This is a aspect of that was that a computer that was seized very imperfect Bill—it is an appalling one—but at least probably contained material that touched on matters of they are trying to make it a little better and a little more the House and proceedings in the House; it certainly tolerable. contained files that held material relating to other hon. Members. Wisely, the police did not proceed with that The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of prosecution, but that matter of privilege was said to be theHouseof Commons(BarbaraKeeley):The17amendments the subject of an extensive document—which I have not in this group make it the largest that we will discuss seen yet. That is just one tiny example of the problems today, so I hope that hon. Members will bear with me as under an unwritten constitution of ordering the I go through them. First, I wish to touch on a matter that relationships between the external enforcement a great number of the people who have contributed to authorities—the police—and this House and its this lively debate have discussed: privilege and concern Committees. So if we are to codify the entire relationship, for their constituents. There is a danger—some of the not only the one between the House and the police, but later contributions started to approach this—that that the one between the Director of Public Prosecutions view could become self-serving, and we must be careful and other persons unknown, and the relationships involving to avoid that. A number of the contributions reflected IPSA and the commissioner, that will require a real the fact that we must keep reminding ourselves that we volume in itself and it is all unnecessary. are in the middle of a recessionary downturn and that what people are worried about is not the issues that some The dangerous part is that the protocol will, by hon. Members have raised. What people are worried definition, restrict this House. If it were not to do so, it about is their jobs and their homes. In the middle of all would be a completely pointless document. There is no that, we have faced a scandal with which we have to deal. point having a protocol that does not do something, That is the key matter. because it, thus, merely becomes a declaration. It becomes a bit of a totemic label: something that is Mr. Garnier: I hope that the hon. Lady is not going to desirable but has no effect. If something is in an Act of allow herself to be misled by the ancient word “privilege”, Parliament, it is designed to bind and to impose obligations, which is a confusing one. I appreciate that those who do 355 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 356 not think about it might find it difficult to understand very real public discontent with our processes. It would its meaning. Perhaps we should use terms such as not meet our objectives of transparency and independence “trusteeship” or “duty”—words that are more widely if all IPSA could do were to make a report to the understood. However, for shorthand purposes—thanks Committee. One of the key messages that we have to to the Government’s guillotine we have to speak in take from the public anger about these matters in recent shorthand—the word “privilege” is the one that we will months is that the old way of dealing with them is no use and understand in this Chamber. That may require longer judged to be adequate. We are not overriding us to explain the term to those outside, but that should procedures that the public perceive as working well and not allow her to misbehave in introducing her remarks we cannot return to a system that is entirely managed by traducing those who have spoken not only passionately, within the House. but very seriously about the questions relating to the The proposals in the Bill would give the House as privileges of this House. large a continuing role as is compatible with meeting the concerns of our constituents that we must be seen to be 3.45 pm subject to proper regulation and supervision. : I am not doing that: I am just seeking Mr. Cash: Does the Minister think that the public to remind hon. Members of the context in which we are might be extremely angered by the idea that they as operating. It is easy, when we get absorbed in a three-day electors should see such decisions taken by the courts debate, to forget the context outside the House. rather than by those whom they have elected? That is a fundamental question of democracy. I suggest that an Mr. Carmichael: May I refer the Minister to the opinion poll would be guaranteed to show that at least words of Lord Bingham when he gave evidence to the 85 per cent. of the electorate would prefer to continue Joint Committee on parliamentary privilege in 1998? with their democracy, not hand it over to judicial supremacy. He said: “The term ‘privilege’ is, I think, plainly unfortunate, although Barbara Keeley: The point that I keep asserting is that hallowed by long usage. It wrongly suggests some perk or special we need to be clear about the public confidence, and the right or dignity, which certain office-holders enjoy, when attention public do not have confidence in some of the processes should be concentrated on the limited exemption from the ordinary that we have been talking about. law which the effective performance of a public duty requires.” I want now turn to amendment 17. That is what we are talking about. Does the Minister agree that we throw that away at our peril? Mr. Redwood rose— Barbara Keeley: Indeed I do, but I do not think that Barbara Keeley: I shall give way, but time is very the sensible measures in this Bill would do that. limited and I have a large group of 17 amendments to work through. Sir Robert Smith: The Deputy Leader of the House dismisses the comments of my hon. Friend the Member Mr. Redwood: Can the Minister not understand that for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) with one the public were unhappy about the generosity of the line, but she earlier prayed in aid the fact that we are in a scheme and the lax administration in some cases, not recession with which the Government do not seem to about the enforcement of cases against Members who have been coping. A recession should not be an excuse had misbehaved? She is tackling the latter, not the for failing to take seriously the constitutional position former. How does that make any difference to the issue of this House. that annoyed the public? Barbara Keeley: I agree, and I hope that I have not Barbara Keeley: I am going to have to start repeating given that impression. myself, Mrs. Heal, if people keep asking me the same Amendments 32, 33 and 36 would remove the power questions. of the new body—IPSA—to make recommendations to Let me turn to amendment 17, which was tabled by the House about possible disciplinary sanctions and the my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart provision that the recommendations might be published. Bell). I understood the concern expressed in this amendment The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) made the that, as the clause is drafted, it might make a decision of point that we cannot have a dual control system. This is how to respond to a recommendation justiciable, or at not a driving lesson: we need to change the system and least that the Standards and Privileges Committee would we cannot have dual control. be obliged to act on a recommendation in some circumstances. The key point is that nothing in the Bill As my right hon. Friend the Justice Secretary mentioned, takes away the inherent powers of the House to discipline we have all agreed that we need to set up an outside its Members as it thinks fit. In fact, there is a provision body to take over the running of our allowances and the that makes it clear that nothing in the Bill prevents the financial rules. We cannot continue to be wholly self- House from exercising its disciplinary functions other regulating in such matters. The approach that we have than following an IPSA process. IPSA has the power adopted is to provide for IPSA to recommend—or, in only to recommend, not to enforce its recommendations, some cases, direct—action, but to leave it to the House so it is quite clear from the Bill that the Committee and to enforce it. That is the key point, and that approach the House have a free hand to do with the recommendation best treads the path between responding to the real what they think fit. public anger on this issue and respecting the position of the House. Mr. Grieve: That simply cannot be right. If the Minister There has been reference to the work of the Standards has bothered to read the report from the Justice Committee and Privileges Committee, and we have to weigh the and the opinions of experts, she will know that the excellent work that it has done in most cases with the decisions will become justiciable because they have been 357 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 358

[Mr. Grieve] Mr. Grieve: I come back to my point about justiciability, about which the Minister must have a view. I believe incorporated in statute. We cannot get away from that—it that incorporating references such as to the protocol or cannot be magicked away—and so far, I have to say, she the role of the Standards and Privileges Committee has said nothing about that. means that the process must be justiciable henceforth— contrary to the previous position under article IX of the Barbara Keeley: To return to amendment 17, I understand Bill of Rights. The Government must have an opinion that the Members who tabled it might be prepared not on that, but the Minister still has not given it to us. to press it to a Division because of the key point that I have just made. The amendment carries the risk of Barbara Keeley: We have said that we are prepared to fettering the Committee’s discretion. have a look at the matter. We are going to have to leave Mr. Leigh: Will the hon. Lady give way? it there. I have just touched on amendment 66. Amendment 46 Barbara Keeley: I need to make a little progress. is about giving advice to Members, and I hope that the Let me turn to amendments 65 and 66, which were hon. Member for North Essex will accept that we have tabled by the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin). dealt with that already. I understand that amendment 65 concerns fears about how the courts will react to a new regulatory scheme. In Mr. Leigh: The Minister must realise that this is a particular, there is a concern that the Standards and matter of acute concern. The Bill of Rights has been Privileges Committee could be subject to judicial review there for 300 years. It has protected the liberties of our for failing to follow a recommendation. The Bill does people and made us the most law-abiding democratic not repeal article IX of the Bill of Rights—nor does it nation in the world. Will she now please reply to the disapply it. In the absence of an explicit provision or point put carefully to her by my hon. and learned necessary implication, a court will continue to read Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve)? She article IX as applying. There is clearly no necessary is replacing the Bill of Rights with a provision that implication in these provisions that article IX should be renders matters pertaining to the House justiciable. We taken to be amended in any way. That would mean that must have an answer before we move to a vote. it is more likely that a court will consider that any proceedings of the Standards and Privileges Committee Barbara Keeley: We do not believe that those matters would remain within the protection of article IX. will be justiciable. Opposition Members have said that they want to reach the later amendments, so we are Mr. Jenkin: The Bill contains other clauses, which going to have make progress. have been put in for clarification, such as that which makes it clear that the House can continue to use its I believe that we dealt with amendment 46 in an disciplinary procedures unfettered by IPSA. Why not earlier debate, and I turn now to amendments 34 and have a clarification in the Bill of exactly what the hon. 18. We have deliberately devised a scheme in the Bill so Lady has just said that she believes that the Bill will do? that the House retains the power to discipline its Members. A great many people, including the learned Clerk of Apart from the criminal offences in clause 9, the ultimate this House, do not agree with her. decision about what action to take against an MP remains with the House. It will be for the House to Barbara Keeley: We have to be in a situation of decide whether to punish a Member for not supplying clarity—[HON.MEMBERS: “Absolutely.”] Okay, well, we information or for failing to comply with a direction, can try to move to that. and it will be for the House to decide what to do with a Let me move on to amendment 66. A number of recommendation from IPSA for other sanctions. amendments tabled by right hon. and hon. Members We believe that concerns that the provisions are breaches concerned the protocol in clause 8, which was actually of privilege are misplaced, because they have been meant to be helpful. The Justice Secretary and I have carefully drafted precisely to preserve those privileges been surprised at the extent to which difficulties have of the House. The alternatives would have been to make been expressed about that, and we are prepared to take every breach of the rules on allowances or the registration it away and to consider it. I wonder whether the hon. of interests into a criminal offence, or to give IPSA Member for North Essex might be prepared to withdraw itself a power to enforce its decisions. amendment 66, as it links in with matters of the protocol Both options would lead to giving a body outside that we will be considering. Parliament far more of an incursion into the proceedings David Howarth: Will the hon. Lady clarify whether of the House, and would certainly be a breach of the the Government’s intention is for the protocol to create principle of exclusive cognisance. Therefore, I urge the obligations on the people on the list in clause 8? If that Committee to reject the amendment. is not the Government’s intention, a lot of the problems will fade away when they come to reconsider the matter. Sir Alan Beith: I think that the Minister is confusing things that involve proceedings in this House and things Barbara Keeley: No, it was not the intention to create that do not. The payment of allowances is not a proceeding binding obligations. The provision was expressly limited in this House. It is possible to deal with it through to a statement about the way in which the bodies would measures that do not impinge on parliamentary privilege. work together. It was meant to be helpful. It will not They may give rise to the problem of justiciability, but create binding obligations, but it is clear that Members they do not raise issues of privilege. If the Government have concerns about it. A number of amendments in recognised that they can deal with pay and allowances this large group relate to the proposal, and the Justice without interfering with privilege, they would not have Secretary has said that we are prepared to reconsider to disapply article IX of the Bill of Rights—as, contrary the matter. to what she said earlier, clause 10 does. 359 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 360

Barbara Keeley: There does need to be that independent make it clear that we are talking about, and recognising, authority. powers of the House that already exist. Clause 8(10) makes it clear that the range of sanctions that IPSA can Mr. Jenkin: Will the Minister give way? recommend include withholding salary, suspension and expulsion. That is a clear indication of the range of Barbara Keeley: No, as I am going to work through sanctions that a Member who has broken the rules the rest of the amendments. might expect to have imposed, including the most serious Amendment 19 would omit subsection (6) of clause 8. sanctions. I have said already that that subsection, on protocol, We feel that it would be unacceptable if IPSA had the was meant to be helpful. Clearly, Members are not power to recommend sanctions when there was no finding it helpful and we have agreed to look at it again public indication of what they might be. The public, to to be helpful as the Bill progresses further through the whom I keep referring, need to know such things. We House. feel that that approach best treads the path between Amendment 20 would substitute the Committee on responding to public anger and respecting the position Standards and Privileges for the Speaker’s Committee of the House. Given my comments on those amendments, on the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority I commend clause 8 to the House. in the first line of clause 8(6). That is a sensible thing to do, and we are prepared to accept both that amendment Mr. Grieve: If the Bill goes on the statute book and and amendment 21. does not get repealed or altered soon, I think that the Amendment 64, which is in the name of the hon. Minister’s speech in response to the debate will stand as Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin), would remove an absolute monument to the way in which the Executive the provision in the Bill that makes it clear that the now treat this place. She was unable to answer any of House’s powers to discipline its Members are not the questions about the maintenance of our independence. constrained by the Bill. The point of that provision is to The high point of the Government’s position was their confirm that the House continues to have the freedom telling us that their own analysis was that it was more to discipline its Members in any way that it chooses, likely than not that our independence would not be and in any circumstances that it considers relevant. For undermined as a result of the proposals in clause 8, yet example, the House will continue to have the power to she was unable to provide any coherent argument on punish breaches of those parts of the code of conduct why amendment 32 would not improve the Bill. that are not transferred to the authority of IPSA. That As the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed power is not conferred by the Bill. The Bill, of course, (Sir Alan Beith) rightly says, let us start moving the does not give the House permission to exercise its process in a direction that provides clarity to the role of powers; the provision is simply a statement of fact, IPSA, while protecting our independence in matters included for the avoidance of doubt. that concern the internal discipline of this House and 4pm that ultimately touch on the way the House operates. That is the point where justiciability and privilege start Mr. Jenkin: The Minister mentioned the term “exclusive to run together. If we could just keep that in mind, the cognisance”. Can she explain to the House what she Minister would find there was widespread consensus means by that, and what she understands by that term? across the House on the changes that the Government have tried to introduce. Instead, every time we look as Barbara Keeley: No. I will not lengthen the debate by though we are about to approach that consensus, we get that method. Given that amendment 64 is about a diverted into a strange, nightmarish regulatory regime simple statement of fact that is included in the Bill, for that will stand us in endless discredit with the public the avoidance of doubt, I urge the hon. Gentleman to and undermine our ability to do our job. In those withdraw it. Amendment 67 is, again, on a matter that is circumstances, I believe that amendment 32 has real linked to protocol. We have decided during this debate benefit, although it is just a small step in the right that there are a number of matters that should be direction, and I wish to put it to a vote. looked at. We can support the principle behind the amendment, and can look to make some drafting changes Mr. Straw: Let me refute what the hon. and learned as the Bill progresses, if that is acceptable to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) said in an unusually Gentleman. temperate set of remarks. My hon. Friend the Deputy On amendment 97, we accept the point made about Leader of the House dealt carefully with each amendment. double jeopardy. We definitely need to get the wording The hon. and learned Gentleman’s implication was that right. If we have not got it right, we need to do so, and I we have simply sat here and resisted all the amendments, hope that the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed but he knows very well that that is the reverse of the (Sir Alan Beith) will accept the assurance that we will truth. I am not supposed to talk about this but, as the ensure that we get it right. We accept the principle record of the notes going backwards and forwards behind amendment 12, and will look at the matter later between Ministers and the official Box will disclose, in the Bill’s passage. what I have sought to do with my hon. Friend is listen That leaves us with amendment 22. The powers of to the debate. On a number of occasions, I have come to the House to discipline its Members are inherent in its the Chamber with one view, but I have changed it in the jurisdiction—a point that I made earlier—so the powers light of debate, which is the purpose of parliamentary set out in the clauses are all powers that the House debate. There is a legitimate argument to be had about already possesses. There is no suggestion that the powers amendment 32, but I have to tell the hon. and learned will be limited in any way in future, or that the list of Gentleman and the Committee that the Bill is not powers is exhaustive. Nor is there any suggestion that remotely about undermining the independence of the the powers are conferred by the Bill. We are trying to House, something for which I have stood— 361 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 362

Sir Alan Beith: It is an unintended consequence. Mr. Grieve: The time for the amendments is now. It is our one opportunity to make these decisions. Every Mr. Straw: Nor is it an unintended consequence. I am Member of the House must look to their electorate and ready to accept the amendment that the right hon. to their own conscience as to whether we wish to see our Member for North-West Hampshire and my hon. Friend independence disappear for no good reason, when the the Member for Middlesbrough have tabled to clause Bill can be improved to make it workable and do what 10. Furthermore, we will continue to examine it, and the public want and what we are required to do. that will not necessarily be the end of the matter. I recognise the sensitivity of the matter of privilege but, Question put, That the amendment be made. to pick up a point made by my hon. Friend, privilege at The House divided: Ayes 234, Noes 274. its best is not about our privilege but about the privileges Division No. 175] [4.10 pm of our electors, and through that, the rights of this House. The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) AYES is no longer in his place. [Interruption.] I am sorry, he is. I am looking at him; usually, he sits somewhere else. Abbott, Ms Diane Evennett, Mr. David He spoke eloquently on the subject, but we must all Afriyie, Adam Fallon, Mr. Michael Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Farron, Tim understand that the term, which means many things, Alexander, Danny Featherstone, Lynne can also become self-serving. I think it was the hon. Amess, Mr. David Field, Mr. Mark Member for North Essex who described it as trust. Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Fisher, Mark Mr. Jenkin: It was not me. Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Fox, Dr. Liam Atkinson, Mr. Peter Fraser, Christopher Mr. Straw: I apologise—perhaps it was the hon. Baker, Norman Garnier, Mr. Edward Member for Gainsborough. Baldry, Tony Gauke, Mr. David Barker, Gregory George, Andrew Mr. Garnier: The right hon. Gentleman should listen Barrett, John Gibb, Mr. Nick to him more often. Beith, rh Sir Alan Gidley, Sandra Benyon, Mr. Richard Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Mr. Straw: I listen to him all the time, and I compliment Beresford, Sir Paul Goldsworthy, Julia him on what he said. However, there was a breach of Binley, Mr. Brian Goodman, Mr. Paul trust by the House in the way it dealt with the expenses Blunt, Mr. Crispin Goodwill, Mr. Robert regime, which is why we are in this mess. Certain Bone, Mr. Peter Gove, Michael consequences, I am afraid, must follow. Second Reading Brady, Mr. Graham Gray, Mr. James was approved on a vote of 291:1. It was open to the Brake, Tom Grayling, Chris House to vote the Bill down, but it decided not to do so. Brazier, Mr. Julian Greening, Justine The measure involves a modification not of privilege as Breed, Mr. Colin Grieve, Mr. Dominic privilege but of powers previously exercised directly by Brokenshire, James Gummer, rh Mr. John the House. What we are doing, by the authority of the Brooke, Annette Hague, rh Mr. William House, if the measure is approved— Browne, Mr. Jeremy Hammond, Mr. Philip Bruce, rh Malcolm Hammond, Stephen Mr. Garnier: On a point of order, Sir Alan. I wonder Burns, Mr. Simon Hancock, Mr. Mike whether you would advise me. We are very short of time Burrowes, Mr. David Hands, Mr. Greg but we are now having a second Government winding-up Burt, Alistair Harper, Mr. Mark speech on the debate. I fully appreciate the fact that the Burt, Lorely Harris, Dr. Evan Butterfill, Sir John Harvey, Nick Secretary of State is loyally defending the junior Minister, Cable, Dr. Vincent Hayes, Mr. John but he is eating into our time. If we do not debate the Cameron, rh Mr. David Heald, Mr. Oliver Bill properly, we will be roundly accused of not doing Campbell, Mr. Gregory Heathcoat-Amory, rh our duty. Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Mr. David Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hemming, John The Chairman of Ways and Means (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Cash, Mr. William Henderson, Mr. Doug I am grateful to the hon. and learned Gentleman. I Chope, Mr. Christopher Hoban, Mr. Mark myself was about to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman Clark, Greg Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas that his speech was turning into a Second Reading Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hollobone, Mr. Philip speech, and was not closely germane to the amendment. Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Holloway, Mr. Adam Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Holmes, Paul Mr. Straw: I will bring my remarks to a close, Sir Alan. Cormack, Sir Patrick Hopkins, Kelvin Certain consequences follow, like night follows the Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Horam, Mr. John day. If we voluntarily decide to set up the authority, it Curry, rh Mr. David Hosie, Stewart means that some of the authority’s enforcement will be Davies, Mr. Dai Howard, rh Mr. Michael dealt with outside the House. Davies, David T.C. Howarth, David (Monmouth) Howarth, Mr. Gerald Mark Durkan: May we return to the most germane Davis, rh David Howell, John point, which relates to amendment 32 and the Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Hughes, Simon accompanying amendments 33 and 36? They seem to Dorries, Nadine Hunt, Mr. Jeremy me to be reasonable, measured and sound. If the House Duddridge, James Hunter, Mark were to reject them, we would be reckless and feckless in Duncan, Alan Jack, rh Mr. Michael doing so. Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Jackson, Mr. Stewart Dunne, Mr. Philip Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Mr. Straw: I cannot accept the amendments at the Durkan, Mark Jones, Mr. David moment. I am certainly ready to give them active Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Kawczynski, Daniel consideration, but they raise important points of principle. Evans, Mr. Nigel Keetch, Mr. Paul 363 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 364

Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Rosindell, Andrew Battle, rh John Foster, Mr. Michael Key, Robert Ruffley, Mr. David Bayley, Hugh (Worcester) Kirkbride, Miss Julie Russell, Bob Beckett, rh Margaret Foster, Michael Jabez Knight, rh Mr. Greg Sanders, Mr. Adrian Begg, Miss Anne (Hastings and Rye) Kramer, Susan Scott, Mr. Lee Bell, Sir Stuart Francis, Dr. Hywel Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Selous, Andrew Benn, rh Hilary Gapes, Mike Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Shapps, Grant Benton, Mr. Joe Gardiner, Barry Lancaster, Mr. Mark Shepherd, Mr. Richard Berry, Roger George, Andrew Lansley, Mr. Andrew Simmonds, Mark Betts, Mr. Clive Gerrard, Mr. Neil Laws, Mr. David Simpson, Alan Blackman, Liz Gilroy, Linda Leech, Mr. John Simpson, David Blears, rh Hazel Godsiff, Mr. Roger Leigh, Mr. Edward Smith, Sir Robert Blizzard, Mr. Bob Goggins, rh Paul Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Soames, Mr. Nicholas Borrow, Mr. David S. Goodman, Helen Lewis, Dr. Julian Spicer, Sir Michael Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Griffith, Nia Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Spring, Mr. Richard Brennan, Kevin Griffiths, Nigel Lidington, Mr. David Stanley, rh Sir John Brown, Lyn Grogan, Mr. John Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Steen, Mr. Anthony Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gwynne, Andrew Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Streeter, Mr. Gary Brown, Mr. Russell Hain, rh Mr. Peter Loughton, Tim Stuart, Ms Gisela Browne, rh Des Hall, Mr. Mike Luff, Peter Stuart, Mr. Graham Bryant, Chris Hall, Patrick Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Stunell, Andrew Buck, Ms Karen Hamilton, Mr. David MacNeil, Mr. Angus Swinson, Jo Burden, Richard Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Malins, Mr. Humfrey Swire, Mr. Hugo Burnham, rh Andy Hanson, rh Mr. David Maples, Mr. John Syms, Mr. Robert Butler, Ms Dawn Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mason, John Tapsell, Sir Peter Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Harris, Mr. Tom Mates, rh Mr. Michael Taylor, Mr. Ian Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Havard, Mr. Dai Maude, rh Mr. Francis Taylor, Dr. Richard Cairns, David Healey, rh John McCrea, Dr. William Teather, Sarah Campbell, Mr. Alan Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Thurso, John Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Heppell, Mr. John McGrady, Mr. Eddie Tredinnick, David Caton, Mr. Martin Hesford, Stephen McIntosh, Miss Anne Turner, Mr. Andrew Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Chapman, Ben Heyes, David Meale, Mr. Alan Vaizey, Mr. Edward Clapham, Mr. Michael Hill, rh Keith Miller, Mrs. Maria Vara, Mr. Shailesh Clark, Paul Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Milton, Anne Viggers, Sir Peter Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hood, Mr. Jim Moss, Mr. Malcolm Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Clelland, Mr. David Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Mulholland, Greg Walker, Mr. Charles Clwyd, rh Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Mundell, David Wallace, Mr. Ben Coaker, Mr. Vernon Howarth, rh Mr. George Murrison, Dr. Andrew Walter, Mr. Robert Coffey, Ann Howells, rh Dr. Kim Newmark, Mr. Brooks Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Cohen, Harry Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Waterson, Mr. Nigel Connarty, Michael Hughes, rh Beverley Oaten, Mr. Mark Watkinson, Angela Cooper, Rosie Humble, Mrs. Joan Öpik, Lembit Webb, Steve Corbyn, Jeremy Hutton, rh Mr. John Osborne, Mr. George Weir, Mr. Mike Cousins, Jim Iddon, Dr. Brian Ottaway, Richard Willetts, Mr. David Crausby, Mr. David Illsley, Mr. Eric Paterson, Mr. Owen Williams, Mark Cruddas, Jon Irranca-Davies, Huw Penning, Mike Williams, Mr. Roger Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jackson, Glenda Penrose, John Williams, Stephen Cummings, John James, Mrs. Siân C. Price, Adam Willott, Jenny Cunningham, Mr. Jim Jenkins, Mr. Brian Prisk, Mr. Mark Wilshire, Mr. David Cunningham, Tony Johnson, rh Alan Pugh, Dr. John Wilson, Mr. Rob David, Mr. Wayne Johnson, Ms Diana R. Randall, Mr. John Winterton, Ann Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Helen Redwood, rh Mr. John Winterton, Sir Nicholas Dean, Mrs. Janet Jones, Mr. Martyn Reid, Mr. Alan Wishart, Pete Denham, rh Mr. John Joyce, Mr. Eric Rennie, Willie Wright, Jeremy Dismore, Mr. Andrew Keeble, Ms Sally Dobbin, Jim Keeley, Barbara Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Yeo, Mr. Tim Robathan, Mr. Andrew Dobson, rh Frank Keen, Alan Young, rh Sir George Robertson, Angus Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Keen, Ann Younger-Ross, Richard Robertson, Hugh Doran, Mr. Frank Kelly, rh Ruth Robertson, Mr. Laurence Tellers for the Ayes: Dowd, Jim Kemp, Mr. Fraser Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Mr. Stephen Crabb and Drew, Mr. David Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Rogerson, Dan Bill Wiggin Eagle, Angela Kidney, Mr. David Eagle, Maria Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter NOES Efford, Clive Knight, rh Jim Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kumar, Dr. Ashok Ainger, Nick Austin, John Engel, Natascha Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Bailey, Mr. Adrian Ennis, Jeff Lammy, rh Mr. David Allen, Mr. Graham Baird, Vera Etherington, Bill Laxton, Mr. Bob Anderson, Mr. David Balls, rh Ed Flello, Mr. Robert Lazarowicz, Mark Armstrong, rh Hilary Banks, Gordon Flint, rh Caroline Lepper, David Atkins, Charlotte Barlow, Ms Celia Flynn, Paul Levitt, Tom Austin, Mr. Ian Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Follett, Barbara Lewis, Mr. Ivan 365 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 366

Linton, Martin Roy, Mr. Frank Amendments made: 20, page 5, line 38, leave out Love, Mr. Andrew Ruane, Chris ‘Speaker’s Committee on the Independent Parliamentary Lucas, Ian Russell, Christine Standards Authority’ and insert ‘Committee on Standards Mactaggart, Fiona Salter, Martin and Privileges.’. Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Malik, Mr. Shahid Seabeck, Alison Amendment 21, page 5, leave out line 43.—(Sir Stuart Mallaber, Judy Sharma, Mr. Virendra Bell.) Mann, John Shaw, Jonathan Clause 8, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Marris, Rob Sheerman, Mr. Barry Marsden, Mr. Gordon Sheridan, Jim Martlew, Mr. Eric Simon, Mr. Siôn Clause 9 McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Singh, Mr. Marsha McCabe, Steve Skinner, Mr. Dennis OFFENCES McCarthy, Kerry Slaughter, Mr. Andy McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Mr. Grieve: I beg to move amendment 38, McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, Ms Angela C. page 6, line 22, leave out subsection (2). McDonnell, John (Sheffield, Hillsborough) McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) McFall, rh John Smith, Geraldine The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Smith, rh Jacqui discuss the following: McIsaac, Shona Snelgrove, Anne Amendment 47, page 6, line 23, after ‘member’, McKechin, Ann Southworth, Helen insert ‘intentionally’. McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Spellar, rh Mr. John Merron, Gillian Spink, Bob Amendment 15, page 6, line 25, at end insert— Michael, rh Alun Starkey, Dr. Phyllis ‘(2A) A member of the House of Commons commits an Miliband, rh Edward Stoate, Dr. Howard offence if the member intentionally fails to comply with a Miller, Andrew Strang, rh Dr. Gavin requirement included in the MPs’ financial interests rules by Moffatt, Laura Straw, rh Mr. Jack virtue of section 5(8) (declaration of interests).’. Mole, Chris Taylor, David Amendment 100, page 6, line 25, at end insert— Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Thomas, Mr. Gareth ‘A Member of the House of Commons commits an offence if Morden, Jessica Thornberry, Emily the Member intentionally fails to comply with a requirement Morgan, Julie Timms, rh Mr. Stephen relating to the declaration of interests included in the MPs’ code Mudie, Mr. George Todd, Mr. Mark of conduct relating to financial interests.’. Munn, Meg Touhig, rh Mr. Don Murphy, Mr. Denis Trickett, Jon Amendment 39, page 6, line 26, leave out subsection (3). Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Turner, Dr. Desmond Amendment 41, page 6, line 34, leave out subsection (5). Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Turner, Mr. Neil Amendment 42, page 6, line 36, leave out subsection (6). Naysmith, Dr. Doug Twigg, Derek Norris, Dan Ussher, Kitty Clause stand part. O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Vis, Dr. Rudi O’Hara, Mr. Edward Walley, Joan Mr. Grieve: We now have to consider the criminal Olner, Mr. Bill Waltho, Lynda offences that the Government think it right to create Osborne, Sandra Ward, Claire and to impose on Members of this House if they Palmer, Dr. Nick Watts, Mr. Dave transgress. Let me first make absolutely clear something Pearson, Ian Whitehead, Dr. Alan that has been said on many occasions: if Members of Plaskitt, Mr. James Wicks, rh Malcolm Parliament commit criminal offences, no privilege or Pope, Mr. Greg Williams, rh Mr. Alan any other protection should exist in respect of them. Prentice, Bridget Williams, Mrs. Betty There is nothing new about that: it has been the position Prentice, Mr. Gordon Wills, rh Mr. Michael for hundreds of years. However, the Committee should Prescott, rh Mr. John Wilson, Phil spend a moment considering whether the offences created Primarolo, rh Dawn Winnick, Mr. David in clause 9 add anything to the existing criminal law and Prosser, Gwyn Wood, Mike Purnell, rh James whether they will create problems that will be damaging Woolas, Mr. Phil to the way the House operates. Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Wright, Mr. Anthony Reed, Mr. Andy Wright, David We have to consider three offences. First: Reed, Mr. Jamie Wright, Mr. Iain “A member of the House of Commons commits an offence if Reid, rh John Wright, Dr. Tony the member…makes a claim under the MPs’ allowances scheme, Riordan, Mrs. Linda and…provides information for the purposes of the claim that the Robertson, John Tellers for the Noes: member knows to be false or misleading in a material respect.” Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey and The penalty for that action will be: Rooney, Mr. Terry Mark Tami “on conviction on indictment…imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or…a fine or…both.” Question accordingly negatived. I have no difficulty with that offence, but I have to say Amendment made: 17, page 5, line 25, at end insert— that it sends a very strange message about how we view ‘(2A) The Committee on Standards and Privileges may accept, the criminal law to create an offence specifically for modify or reject as it sees fit a recommendation under ourselves, and which I assume will therefore be used on subsection (2).’.—(Sir Stuart Bell.) Members who transgress in this way, when there already Amendment made: 85, page 5, line 31, leave out exist in the criminal law at least two, and probably more, ‘financial interests rules’ and insert offences which relate to exactly the same activity and would attract maximum sentences of seven and 10 years. ‘code of conduct relating to financial interests’.—(Mr. Blizzard.) How can I go back to my constituents and say that the 367 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 368

House is taking them seriously when the offence that we Members of Parliament have known for a long time have created for ourselves appears to be a much lesser how easy it is to fail to comply with requirements one than that under the general criminal law? I would included in Members’ financial interests rules, and how have thought that the Secretary of State for Justice, with that can be done innocently. I wonder whether we are his knowledge of the criminal law, would acknowledge using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. This is a that it is much better that this House should be subject straightforward regulatory offence that we seem in the to exactly the same criminal law as would be visited on past to have succeeded in dealing with quite satisfactorily anybody else who behaved in this way by obtaining through the sanctions imposed in this House. It is odd their allowances fraudulently. that, because the new offence can be visited with only a There are already two such offences on the statute fine as its penalty, if a conviction were obtained it book: the offence in section 17 of the Theft Act 1968, would not disqualify a Member from serving in this which is about false accounting and carries a sentence place. I simply ask whether the offence is strictly necessary. of seven years; and the offence in the Fraud Act 2006, which attracts 10 years’ imprisonment. Both fulfil exactly Sir Alan Beith: The hon. and learned Gentleman the same criteria as the offence in clause 9(1). The must read clause 9 in conjunction with clause 10, one of Secretary of State has told me informally—I am sure he the consequences of which is that if a Member said in a will not mind my telling the Committee—that there are debate, as the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) differences. Well, there are some minor differences in did openly yesterday, “I do not approve of this legislation, wording, but as regards what has to be proved against I do not see how it can work and I will probably be the individual concerned—namely, the provision of subject to an offence under it. If I am, I will not pay the information in the knowledge that that information is fine and I will go prison”, those words could be adduced false or misleading, which implies dishonesty on the in court proceedings. Prosecuting counsel could say, part of the person concerned—I cannot see any distinction, “You say that this was an accidental mistake, but in in terms of ease of conviction or otherwise, between the fact your own words, as reported in Hansard, incriminate more general offences and this offence. you.” Mr. Garnier: Does my hon. and learned Friend share Mr. Grieve: Yes, the right hon. Gentleman makes a my surprise at the intervention by the Secretary of State good point, which features in the comments of the on Second Reading, when he chided me for misconstruing Speaker’s Counsel, at page 13 of the evidence that he clause 9, which I said, on any view, imputes a test of gave to the right hon. Gentleman’s Committee, the dishonesty? He said it did not and that was one of the Select Committee on Justice. I agree that that could give distinctions between it and the Fraud Act 2006. I do not rise to serious difficulties. Whether it touches on the think that he had in mind section 17 of the Theft core areas of the House’s privilege is an open question, Act 1968, albeit I am sure that he is a highly experienced but the Secretary of State will have to answer that point. criminal practitioner. Does my hon. and learned Friend Speaking personally, I do not feel comfortable with agree that clause 9(1), if it does nothing else, at least the offence under clause 9(2). Apart from anything else, imputes a test of dishonesty? I think it is unnecessary. I am mindful of the fact that the Secretary of State keeps telling the House that we Mr. Grieve: I agree entirely with my hon. and learned have fallen so low in the public’s estimation that unless Friend. Indeed, although I know we are supposed to be we make a few rods for own back and go out for some in a process of general atonement for our misdeeds, if public flagellation, we will never restore their trust. I the Government had suggested to me that we ought to understand that point, but it is important also that we have a criminal offence that did not involve a test of do not make fools of ourselves. If the problem that the dishonesty, I would have suggested to the Secretary of right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan State that prison capacity would have had to be considerably Beith) identifies were to come to pass, it would have a expanded. It is quite clear, as I think the Secretary of chilling effect on how MPs express themselves here. State has acknowledged, that MPs can make mistakes, like everybody else. The test of dishonesty is clearly Mr. Dismore: Is not the position compounded by the fundamental to the offence. fact that we effectively have no de minimis rule in relation to outside earnings? The advice that we have 4.30 pm had in the Standards and Privileges Committee from As we are having this debate, will the Secretary of the registrar is that if somebody makes a speech and State provide the House with some persuasive arguments gets a bunch of flowers, they should register it. If they as to why we should concoct a specific offence for us, do not, they are potentially in jeopardy. It is really right identical to other offences that affect the general public, that somebody should face a criminal sanction for but visited with a sentence that could be one tenth of failing to declare a bunch of flowers? the maximum duration that someone might get elsewhere? What sort of message does that send? Mr. Grieve: The hon. Gentleman is right. I intended The second offence in clause 9 is committed if to discuss that when considering the third offence, “without reasonable excuse, the member fails to comply with a which relates to paid advocacy.As I am sure he appreciates, requirement included in the MPs’ financial interests rules”. there is some overlap. I do not believe that either that offence or the previous From my reading of the Bill and from evidence given one has any bearing whatever on parliamentary to the Select Committee, I have absolutely no doubt independence, so if the Government wish to have them, that the offence of prohibited paid advocacy takes us they can. In respect of the offence in clause 9(2), however, back into the heartland of the House’s independence. It the Secretary of State needs to provide some explanation is all the more bizarre because, to include the offence in of how the reasonable excuse provisions will work in subsection (3), we must drive a small coach and horses practice. through part of article IX of the Bill of Rights. 369 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 370

[Mr. Grieve] complex issues about how the House goes about its business and whether we can continue to enjoy article A bribery Bill is currently out to scrutiny. In view of IX protection for what we say in the Chamber. the House’s current rules, I do not understand how it is possible to commit the offence in subsection (3) without Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) committing an offence of bribery. The Government (Con): I entirely agree with my hon. and learned Friend offered to consult in great detail—in fairness, they are about clause 9. However, despite the recent furore, doing that—about how a bribery charge can properly particularly in relation to phantom mortgages, the general be brought against a Member of Parliament, while not public will see that not a single charge has been laid removing the protection of the Bill of Rights for speeches against any Member in relation to either the Theft in the House. We have indicated our intention to support Act 1968 or the Fraud Act 2006. They may conclude that because bribery is a serious offence. What, in those that we therefore need new offences. Will my hon. and circumstances, is the point of the offence in subsection learned Friend turn his mind to the rather terrifying (3)? If we have only one opportunity to vote, the offence prospect that the Government are quite deliberately in subsection (3) is perhaps the most important for us to bringing forward clause 9 in order to place Members of consider. However, I fully accept that the offence for Parliament under a different set of values from that which subsection (2) provides is also important because which should apply to the public at large? it could also cause hon. Members difficulties. Mr. Grieve: I do not think that anything in the Bill I agree with the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) will make prosecutions more speedy; indeed, it will who said, as I did yesterday, that we cannot consider the make no difference. Prosecutions may arise out of the Bill without taking into account the infamous regulations, events that have taken place in the past two months. All which the House has produced for itself. We acknowledged that can take place under the existing law. in the regulations that the boundary between a gift and As I have said to the Secretary of State, we seem to a benefit in kind is unclear. If a Member of Parliament have had a remarkable capacity in the past 10 years to attends a dinner given by an organisation—the views of increase criminality in this country by creating new laws which he supports and for which he is promoting legislation that are duplicatory. My reading of the Government’s in the House—speaks at the function and does not pay proposals is that although they vary in their mischief, for his dinner, as almost always happens when hon. they are, to all intents and purposes, unnecessary.However, Members attend such events, he will be in serious difficulty. if there is one that the Secretary of State feels particularly He will find it difficult to know what to put in the passionately about, and if it happens to be clause 9(1), register and whether, thereafter, he is engaging in paid then, although I feel slightly embarrassed about this, advocacy. because I cannot for the life of me see why there should It will be completely unsatisfactory if, with 20 minutes be a special regime for MPs, I do not think that it will to go before we get to Report, and the Bill set to leave cause any wider harm to the independence of this the House at 7 o’clock this evening, potentially never to House. However, the other two subsections raise important return, we do not clear up the problems, given the sword issues that the House must consider. of Damocles that the measure hangs over every hon. Member. My amendments are designed to try to tackle Mr. Garnier: I hesitate to disagree with my hon. and the problems and stimulate debate. Some are probing, learned Friend, but clause 9 is appalling and unnecessary. but the subject needs to be examined in its entirety. I Just as there is no such thing as a half-pregnant person, remain unconvinced. so clause 9 is a bad piece of drafting and it is unnecessary. We should have the courage to say so and make clear David Howarth: I am sure that the Government will our views. I trust that the reasonable approach that my say, in answer to the point made by the hon. Member hon. and learned Friend has taken would not allow him for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), that the prosecution has to reach a false conclusion. discretion and that trivial prosecutions will not be brought. However, there is a fundamental problem with that Mr. Grieve: I hope that I am not reaching a false because the prosecution service is superintended by the conclusion. I hope that I have highlighted, as best I can, Attorney-General—a Minister. The Government promised those aspects of the proposals that, in my view, are to remove that problem by introducing a constitutional either silly or have a sinister consequence for the House, renewal Bill, but they have so far failed to do that. We which it must consider. Broadly speaking, I think clause 9(1) are doing things in the wrong order. is a bit silly—that is my reaction to it—but the other two subsections are much more serious. That is a distinction that can properly be made. Mr. Grieve: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. There are systems in place for ensuring that the Mr. Straw: Given the time, I will be as fast as I can. Attorney-General is not involved in prosecutorial decisions First, the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield about Members of Parliament. After all, Members of (Mr. Grieve) asked why we were having specific offences Parliament have been prosecuted in the past for other when—he says—someone could be charged for any of matters. We can therefore overcome that problem. the three proposed offences under general law. There is However, while trying to be reasonable and respect nothing unusual about having general provisions with the Secretary of State’s point about showing that we specific parallels for specific purposes; I have plenty of take public anger seriously, we have to ask what clause 9 examples, including what is now section 2 of the Fraud adds to the system of punishment that might be meted Act 2006 and section 17 of the Theft Act 1968, which out under existing law for things that we do wrong. apply generally to members of the public. The Local Subsection (3) and, to a lesser extent, subsection (2)— Government and Housing Act 1989 and the Social relating to the two new offences—raise serious and Security Administration Act 1992—not our legislation, 371 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 372 but the Conservatives’ legislation—have specific offences should not be charged as an alternative offence. I have for knowingly making a false declaration. Why did the argued that it is the practice of this House, with different previous Conservative Administration—in my view parties in control, to have narrower offences for specific correctly—make those offences? It is because in practice circumstances. it is sometimes easier to prosecute. One can have a On clause 10, the hon. and learned Gentleman is jurisprudential argument about the difference between right to say that we have been discussing the modification “falsely”, which involves a clear level of knowledge, and of article IX of the Bill of Rights 1689, so that Members “dishonestly”, but there is a difference between those of Parliament can be prosecuted if alleged to be guilty offences for which, in practice, it is on the whole easier of bribery. My proposal on clause 10 is to accept the to prosecute and gain a conviction, and the wider Fraud amendment in the name of the right hon. Member for Act and Theft Act provisions. North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young),which would broadly bring into line the third limb of the clause Mr. Grieve: Will the Justice Secretary give way? relating to proceedings in Parliament with what has already been widely accepted across the House for the Mr. Straw: Just a second, if I may. bribery provisions. As for subsection (2), the second limb of clause 9, this House has to my almost certain knowledge—with, Mr. Cash rose— if not the support, then certainly the acquiescence of the Opposition—supported the insertion of provisions Mr. Grieve rose— concerning the registration of financial interests into the Scotland Act 1998, the Government of Wales Act 1998, Mr. Straw: I give way first to the hon. and learned the Local Government Act 1972, which is a Conservative Member for Beaconsfield and then to the hon. Member Act, and the Local Government and Housing Act 1989, for Stone (Mr. Cash). as well as other provisions. As I said to the Committee earlier, what is sauce for the goose needs to be sauce for Mr. Grieve: If the Secretary of State looks back at the the gander. The same is true in respect of paid advocacy, Scotland Bill, he will find—my memory goes back that with the exception that those offences are rather less far—that I was very concerned about ensuring that the onerous than those that the House has imposed on Scottish Parliament had proper sovereignty. I remember Members of other Administrations. expressing concerns about the criminal offences, as I The hon. and learned Gentleman, who usually makes raised the question of whether they should be left to the good points, made a rather poor point by saying that internal regulation of that institution. That is my first this clause can apply only to Members of Parliament. point. My second is that the Fraud Act 2006 was not in Well, the offences that we have imposed on the Scottish existence then and it commanded widespread support Parliament can apply only to Members of the Scottish in the House for simplifying the fraud law. I have here Parliament and the ones that they imposed on local the particulars of an offence relating to the charge of councils can apply only to local councillors. The hon. fraud, which could be that a person between a day and Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) another day dishonestly and intending to make a gain suggested with a slight smile on his face that there was for himself failed to disclose to IPSA what he was under some deep dark motive behind the provision, but there a legal duty to disclose—he was double-claiming an is not at all. allowance. That is all one has to prove. In those circumstances, I am afraid that I simply cannot accept 4.45 pm the Secretary of State’s contention that the new offence under subsection (1) will be easier to prove. As to the point that the hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield about the current code and what I accept Mr. Straw: The hon. and learned Gentleman makes a are ambiguities in it, these offences would apply only to lawyer’s point about section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 the new provisions, which would come into force under not being around at that stage, but he knows very well clause 5, and they would have to be subject to a clear that section 16 of the Theft Act 1968 was. decision by this House and would certainly have to be more clearly defined than the existing provisions. Mr. Cash: The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon- Mr. Cash: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) raised a question earlier about the connection between clause 9 and clause 10 and asked whether clause 10 would impede the body created Mr. Straw: I promised that I would give way to the from taking appropriate action against a Member. The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield, and I want Clerk said no, it would not, and that was reinforced by to put a final point to him. Without putting words into the Speaker’s Counsel, so on what basis does the Justice anyone’s mouth and to put it delicately, the hon. and Secretary take the view that they were wrong? learned Gentleman seems to accept that there was a general acceptance in the all-party talks that some specific offences needed to be in the Bill. There may not Mr. Straw: I do not take the view that they were have been votes on it, but there was general acceptance wrong, but there is self-evidently a difference of emphasis of that. He accepts that for each instance there should on whether they are right, and we are trying to resolve be an offence but that they should be offences at large. that. Clause 9(3) deals with cash for questions, which is a I am conscious of the time. [Interruption.] It is the rather serious issue. He says that bribery could be responsibility of the Government, but I can still be charged, which is possible in very serious circumstances; conscious of it. It may be helpful, however, if I explain if it is very serious, there is no particular reason why it that we judged clause 10 to be necessary to the independent 373 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 374

[Mr. Straw] that an additional criminal sanction is included in the Scotland Act 1998, which, as far as I am aware, was not operation of IPSA. For the time being, we want the opposed by any members of the Conservative, Labour amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for North- or Liberal Democrat parties during the passage of that West Hampshire in the Bill, but I am ready to sit down Bill. It relates to the issue of declarations of interest. with Members on both sides of the House and see That is the gold standard. The Justice Secretary said whether we can secure a better answer. that what was good for the goose was good for the gander, and I entirely agree with him. If we are seeking Sir Alan Beith rose— to emulate the gold standard, I believe that we also need Mr. Straw: I will take one last question. to include a criminal sanction for people who do not fulfil the requirement for a declaration of interest. Sir Alan Beith: I am grateful to the Secretary of State, because this is a crucial point. Surely he accepts that it is Alan Duncan: There is a crucial difference between not necessary to disapply the Bill of Rights in order to declaration and registration. Declaration means an oral deal with expenses and pay, because they are not part of declaration, so a Member could end up being criminal the proceedings of Parliament, and that because it is simply by not saying anything in the House. Registration possible—and not necessarily difficult—to prove bribery is now possible on the internet. A wide and comprehensive or even paid advocacy without making use of proceedings arrangement covers all the necessary registrations of in Parliament, the Bill of Rights need not be disapplied interest, and implicitly covers declarations as well. in that instance either. Angus Robertson: I am grateful to the shadow Leader Mr. Straw: I am very grateful to the right hon. of the House for explaining his view, but I do not agree Gentleman and his Committee for their report. As he with him: there is a difference between registering and will know, there is a serious difference on that issue declaring an interest. Just because we have access to between independent jurists here—the Clerk of the Google in our offices does not mean that when we are House and his colleagues—and senior parliamentary attending a debate we should not hear whether a Member counsel. has a significant interest to declare. Why would I want to pursue an unpopular clause I wish to draw the attention of Members to the key unless it was felt to be necessary? [HON.MEMBERS: “The word in our amendment, because there has to be Prime Minister told you to.”] No, no. To be blunt, it has reasonableness, as people can occasionally forget to not featured on the Prime Minister’s radar at any stage. mention things. The key word in the Scottish National [HON.MEMBERS: “Oh!”] The Bill has, but—I draw a veil party amendment is “intentionally”. That provides a over the operation of the Prime Minister, but the idea safeguard that should assuage any concerns that any that he has been worrying about clause 10 of this Bill Members of any parties might have. when he has me to worry about is nonsensical. I do not need to speak to this issue at great length. Mr. Grieve: Will the Secretary of State give way? The House has already passed it as a criminal sanction to apply in legislatures elsewhere in the United Kingdom. Mr. Straw: I will not, because I know that the hon. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. We Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) wishes to speak. should include it as a criminal sanction in this Bill. I I assure the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed shall wish to press the amendment to a Division at the (Sir Alan Beith) that we will sit down and go through appropriate stage, and I appeal for the support of what he has said about clause 10. However, let me Members in all parts of the House. return to my point about the Bribery Bill. There is general acceptance that prosecuting a Member of Mr. Garnier: I wish to clarify a point that I made in Parliament for bribery will necessitate a carve-out of an intervention on my hon. and learned Friend the elements of the Bill of Rights, and we are trying to Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve). I said that he replicate that by means of the amendments tabled by had reached a false conclusion; perhaps I ought to have the right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire. I do said that he had reached an illogical conclusion. The not consider that the Committee should be unduly logic of his argument—it is an argument with which I exercised, given its position on the Bribery Bill. I think agree—is that if we disapprove of clause 9, we should that I have made my points. say so and understand the consequences of having said so. It strikes me that the points that my hon. and Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): I am pleased to be learned Friend made in relation to the Fraud Act 2006 able to contribute, although time is running out. I want and, for example, section 17 of the Theft Act 1968 are to speak to amendment 100, which was tabled by me unassailable. No one who has had a look at the relevant and by my colleagues in the Scottish National party. I statutes and then compared them with clause 9(1) can welcome the inclusion of criminal sanctions for Members reach any conclusion other than that we are creating a of Parliament who break the rules, and I thank the law for Members of Parliament who commit fraud Justice Secretary for including not just the three United which is special and lenient and different from that Kingdom parties but all parties in the House in the which applies to ordinary members of the public. I take preparatory meetings. the view—it may be thought to be rather old-fashioned— The Justice Secretary rightly said that the offences that the common law should be universally and uniformly included in the Bill had emerged from earlier legislation applied. If someone is a crook, they are a crook regardless applying to local government, the Scottish Parliament, of whether they are a Member of Parliament or a the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly, butcher, a baker or a candlestick maker. I do not and drew our attention to offences involving the Register understand the motives behind the Government’s inclusion and involving advocacy. However, he failed to mention of clause 9(1). 375 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 376

I fully endorse the criticisms made in relation to the Hunter, Mark Russell, Bob new criminal offences under subsections (2) and (3). Keetch, Mr. Paul Sanders, Mr. Adrian There are other professions—lawyers called to the Bar, Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Shepherd, Mr. Richard solicitors, architects—where perfectly acceptable disciplinary Kramer, Susan Simpson, David rules apply that are dealt with by their disciplinary Laws, Mr. David Stunell, Andrew bodies, and where those who break them are not required Leech, Mr. John Swinson, Jo Leigh, Mr. Edward Taylor, Dr. Richard to go to prison or to be fined. Just because we are in a MacNeil, Mr. Angus Teather, Sarah lather about expenses does not mean that those who are McCrea, Dr. William Thurso, John guilty of contravening the rules of the House or of McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Walter, Mr. Robert IPSA should be treated in such a way. The rules of McGrady, Mr. Eddie Webb, Steve IPSA are yet to be defined and set out; we do not know Mulholland, Greg Weir, Mr. Mike what rules clause 9(2) and (3) refer to, because they have Oaten, Mr. Mark Williams, Mark yet to be written under the provisions of clause 5. We Öpik, Lembit Williams, Mr. Roger are creating yet more criminal laws. We have created Pugh, Dr. John Willott, Jenny about 3,500 new criminal offences since 1997 through Reid, Mr. Alan Wishart, Pete 65 criminal justice laws, and here we have another one, Rennie, Willie Younger-Ross, Richard and yet we do not know its detail. Robertson, Angus Tellers for the Ayes: If we are going to create new laws, we should know Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Stewart Hosie and what they look like; the Bill should say what they are, Rogerson, Dan John Mason but it does not. It is intellectually deficient, lazy and inept not to do so. If we think we are doing ourselves a NOES good turn by appealing to the public by doing this, I Abbott, Ms Diane Clark, Paul suggest we are wrong. As my hon. Friend the Member Ainger, Nick Clarke, rh Mr. Tom for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) said, eventually Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Clelland, Mr. David somebody will be brought before the courts, or at least Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Clwyd, rh Ann the relevant authorities, and be prosecuted for failing to Allen, Mr. Graham Coaker, Mr. Vernon declare—whether by accident or not does not matter at Anderson, Mr. David Coffey, Ann present. We need to anticipate this. We need to think Armstrong, rh Hilary Cohen, Harry about it. This is a thoughtless clause in a thoughtless Atkins, Charlotte Connarty, Michael Bill, and I urge the Government to think again—or to Austin, Mr. Ian Cooper, Rosie Austin, John Cousins, Jim think at all. Bailey, Mr. Adrian Crausby, Mr. David Baird, Vera Creagh, Mary Mr. Grieve: I wish to withdraw amendment 38 and Balls, rh Ed Cruddas, Jon put amendment 39 to the vote, as I think that amendment Banks, Gordon Cryer, Mrs. Ann goes to the heart of the issues we have to consider Barlow, Ms Celia Cummings, John because it concerns paid advocacy and its impact on the Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cunningham, Mr. Jim Bill of Rights and the independence of this House. Battle, rh John Cunningham, Tony Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Bayley, Hugh David, Mr. Wayne Beckett, rh Margaret Davidson, Mr. Ian Amendment made: 86, page 6, line 23, leave out from Begg, Miss Anne Davies, Mr. Quentin ‘included’ to the end of line 25 and insert Bell, Sir Stuart Dean, Mrs. Janet ‘by virtue of section 5(7) (registration of interests) in the MPs’ Benton, Mr. Joe Denham, rh Mr. John code of conduct relating to financial interests.’.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Berry, Roger Dismore, Mr. Andrew Amendment proposed: 100, page 6, line 25, at end Betts, Mr. Clive Dobbin, Jim insert— Blackman, Liz Dobson, rh Frank Blears, rh Hazel Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. ‘A Member of the House of Commons commits an offence if Blizzard, Mr. Bob Doran, Mr. Frank the Member intentionally fails to comply with a requirement Blunkett, rh Mr. David Dowd, Jim relating to the declaration of interests included in the MPs’ code Borrow, Mr. David S. Drew, Mr. David of conduct relating to financial interests.’.—(Angus Robertson.) Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Eagle, Angela Question put, That the amendment be made. Brennan, Kevin Eagle, Maria The House divided: Ayes 63, Noes 286. Brown, Lyn Efford, Clive Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Ellman, Mrs. Louise Division No. 176] [5.0 pm Brown, Mr. Russell Engel, Natascha Bryant, Chris Ennis, Jeff AYES Buck, Ms Karen Etherington, Bill Alexander, Danny Davies, Mr. Dai Burden, Richard Fisher, Mark Baker, Norman Durkan, Mark Burgon, Colin Fitzpatrick, Jim Barrett, John Farron, Tim Burnham, rh Andy Flello, Mr. Robert Bone, Mr. Peter Featherstone, Lynne Butler, Ms Dawn Flint, rh Caroline Brake, Tom George, Andrew Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Flynn, Paul Breed, Mr. Colin Gidley, Sandra Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Follett, Barbara Brooke, Annette Goldsworthy, Julia Cairns, David Foster, Mr. Michael Browne, Mr. Jeremy Hancock, Mr. Mike Campbell, Mr. Alan (Worcester) Bruce, rh Malcolm Harris, Dr. Evan Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Foster, Michael Jabez Burt, Lorely Harvey, Nick Caton, Mr. Martin (Hastings and Rye) Cable, Dr. Vincent Hollobone, Mr. Philip Cawsey, Mr. Ian Francis, Dr. Hywel Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Holmes, Paul Chapman, Ben Gapes, Mike Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Horwood, Martin Clapham, Mr. Michael Gardiner, Barry 377 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 378

George, rh Mr. Bruce Marsden, Mr. Gordon Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Turner, Mr. Neil Gerrard, Mr. Neil Martlew, Mr. Eric Smith, Ms Angela C. Twigg, Derek Gilroy, Linda McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Ussher, Kitty Godsiff, Mr. Roger McCabe, Steve Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Vis, Dr. Rudi Goggins, rh Paul McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Geraldine Walley, Joan Goodman, Helen McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, rh Jacqui Waltho, Lynda Griffith, Nia McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Snelgrove, Anne Ward, Claire Griffiths, Nigel McDonagh, Siobhain Southworth, Helen Watson, Mr. Tom Grogan, Mr. John McDonnell, John Spellar, rh Mr. John Watts, Mr. Dave Gwynne, Andrew McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Spink, Bob Whitehead, Dr. Alan Hain, rh Mr. Peter McGovern, Mr. Jim Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wicks, rh Malcolm Hall, Mr. Mike McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Stoate, Dr. Howard Williams, rh Mr. Alan Hall, Patrick McIsaac, Shona Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Williams, Mrs. Betty Hamilton, Mr. David McKechin, Ann Straw, rh Mr. Jack Wills, rh Mr. Michael Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Stuart, Ms Gisela Wilson, Phil Hanson, rh Mr. David Meale, Mr. Alan Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Winnick, Mr. David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Merron, Gillian Tami, Mark Wood, Mike Harris, Mr. Tom Michael, rh Alun Taylor, David Woolas, Mr. Phil Havard, Mr. Dai Miliband, rh Edward Thomas, Mr. Gareth Wright, Mr. Anthony Healey, rh John Miller, Andrew Thornberry, Emily Wright, David Henderson, Mr. Doug Moffatt, Laura Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Wright, Mr. Iain Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Mole, Chris Todd, Mr. Mark Wright, Dr. Tony Hesford, Stephen Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Touhig, rh Mr. Don Tellers for the Noes: Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Morden, Jessica Trickett, Jon Mrs. Sharon Hodgson and Heyes, David Morgan, Julie Turner, Dr. Desmond Mr. John Heppell Hill, rh Keith Mudie, Mr. George Hood, Mr. Jim Mullin, Mr. Chris Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Munn, Meg Question accordingly negatived. Hopkins, Kelvin Murphy, Mr. Denis Howarth, rh Mr. George Murphy, rh Mr. Jim 5.13 pm Howells, rh Dr. Kim Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, 29 June). Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Naysmith, Dr. Doug Hughes, rh Beverley Norris, Dan The Chairman put forthwith the Questions necessary Humble, Mrs. Joan O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Hutton, rh Mr. John O’Hara, Mr. Edward time (Programme Order, 29 June, and Standing Order Iddon, Dr. Brian Olner, Mr. Bill No. 83D). Illsley, Mr. Eric Osborne, Sandra Amendment proposed: 39, page 6, line 26, leave out Irranca-Davies, Huw Owen, Albert subsection (3).—(Mr. Grieve.) Jackson, Glenda Palmer, Dr. Nick James, Mrs. Siân C. Pearson, Ian Question put, That the amendment be made. Jenkins, Mr. Brian Plaskitt, Mr. James The Committee divided: Ayes 160, Noes 344. Johnson, Ms Diana R. Pope, Mr. Greg Jones, Helen Pound, Stephen Division No. 177] [5.13 pm Jones, Mr. Martyn Prentice, Bridget Joyce, Mr. Eric Prentice, Mr. Gordon AYES Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Prescott, rh Mr. John Afriyie, Adam Cormack, Sir Patrick Keeble, Ms Sally Primarolo, rh Dawn Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Keeley, Barbara Prosser, Gwyn Amess, Mr. David Curry, rh Mr. David Keen, Alan Purnell, rh James Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Davies, David T.C. Kelly, rh Ruth Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James (Monmouth) Kemp, Mr. Fraser Reed, Mr. Andy Atkinson, Mr. Peter Davis, rh David Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Reed, Mr. Jamie Baldry, Tony Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Kidney, Mr. David Reid, rh John Barker, Gregory Dorries, Nadine Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Riordan, Mrs. Linda Beith, rh Sir Alan Duddridge, James Knight, rh Jim Robertson, John Benyon, Mr. Richard Duncan, Alan Kumar, Dr. Ashok Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Rooney, Mr. Terry Binley, Mr. Brian Dunne, Mr. Philip Lammy, rh Mr. David Roy, Mr. Frank Blunt, Mr. Crispin Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Laxton, Mr. Bob Ruane, Chris Bone, Mr. Peter Evans, Mr. Nigel Lazarowicz, Mark Russell, Christine Brady, Mr. Graham Evennett, Mr. David Lepper, David Salter, Martin Brazier, Mr. Julian Fallon, Mr. Michael Levitt, Tom Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Brokenshire, James Field, Mr. Mark Lewis, Mr. Ivan Seabeck, Alison Burns, Mr. Simon Fox, Dr. Liam Linton, Martin Sharma, Mr. Virendra Burrowes, Mr. David Fraser, Christopher Love, Mr. Andrew Shaw, Jonathan Burt, Alistair Garnier, Mr. Edward Lucas, Ian Sheerman, Mr. Barry Butterfill, Sir John Gauke, Mr. David Mactaggart, Fiona Sheridan, Jim Cameron, rh Mr. David Gibb, Mr. Nick Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Simon, Mr. Siôn Carswell, Mr. Douglas Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Malik, Mr. Shahid Simpson, Alan Cash, Mr. William Goodman, Mr. Paul Mallaber, Judy Singh, Mr. Marsha Chope, Mr. Christopher Goodwill, Mr. Robert Mann, John Skinner, Mr. Dennis Clark, Greg Gove, Michael Marris, Rob Slaughter, Mr. Andy Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Gray, Mr. James 379 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 380

Grayling, Chris Öpik, Lembit Blackman, Liz Farron, Tim Greening, Justine Osborne, Mr. George Blears, rh Hazel Featherstone, Lynne Grieve, Mr. Dominic Ottaway, Richard Blizzard, Mr. Bob Fisher, Mark Gummer, rh Mr. John Paterson, Mr. Owen Blunkett, rh Mr. David Fitzpatrick, Jim Hague, rh Mr. William Penning, Mike Borrow, Mr. David S. Flello, Mr. Robert Hammond, Mr. Philip Penrose, John Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Flint, rh Caroline Hammond, Stephen Prisk, Mr. Mark Brake, Tom Flynn, Paul Harper, Mr. Mark Pritchard, Mark Breed, Mr. Colin Follett, Barbara Hayes, Mr. John Randall, Mr. John Brennan, Kevin Foster, Mr. Michael Heald, Mr. Oliver Redwood, rh Mr. John Brooke, Annette (Worcester) Heathcoat-Amory, rh Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brown, Lyn Foster, Michael Jabez Mr. David Robathan, Mr. Andrew Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas (Hastings and Rye) Hoban, Mr. Mark Robertson, Hugh Brown, Mr. Russell Francis, Dr. Hywel Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Robertson, Mr. Laurence Browne, Mr. Jeremy Gapes, Mike Hollobone, Mr. Philip Rosindell, Andrew Bruce, rh Malcolm Gardiner, Barry Holloway, Mr. Adam Ruffley, Mr. David Bryant, Chris George, Andrew Horam, Mr. John Scott, Mr. Lee Buck, Ms Karen George, rh Mr. Bruce Howard, rh Mr. Michael Selous, Andrew Burden, Richard Gerrard, Mr. Neil Howarth, Mr. Gerald Shapps, Grant Burgon, Colin Gidley, Sandra Howell, John Shepherd, Mr. Richard Burnham, rh Andy Gilroy, Linda Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Simmonds, Mark Burt, Lorely Godsiff, Mr. Roger Jack, rh Mr. Michael Simpson, Alan Butler, Ms Dawn Goggins, rh Paul Jackson, Mr. Stewart Soames, Mr. Nicholas Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Goldsworthy, Julia Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Spicer, Sir Michael Cable, Dr. Vincent Goodman, Helen Jones, Mr. David Spring, Mr. Richard Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Griffith, Nia Kawczynski, Daniel Stanley, rh Sir John Cairns, David Griffiths, Nigel Key, Robert Steen, Mr. Anthony Campbell, Mr. Alan Grogan, Mr. John Kirkbride, Miss Julie Streeter, Mr. Gary Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Gwynne, Andrew Knight, rh Mr. Greg Stuart, Mr. Graham Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hain, rh Mr. Peter Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Swire, Mr. Hugo Caton, Mr. Martin Hall, Mr. Mike Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Syms, Mr. Robert Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hall, Patrick Lancaster, Mr. Mark Tapsell, Sir Peter Chapman, Ben Hamilton, Mr. David Lansley, Mr. Andrew Taylor, Mr. Ian Clapham, Mr. Michael Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Leigh, Mr. Edward Timpson, Mr. Edward Clark, Paul Hancock, Mr. Mike Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Tredinnick, David Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hanson, rh Mr. David Lewis, Dr. Julian Turner, Mr. Andrew Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Harman, rh Ms Harriet Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Clelland, Mr. David Harris, Dr. Evan Lidington, Mr. David Vara, Mr. Shailesh Clwyd, rh Ann Harris, Mr. Tom Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Coaker, Mr. Vernon Harvey, Nick Loughton, Tim Walker, Mr. Charles Coffey, Ann Havard, Mr. Dai Luff, Peter Wallace, Mr. Ben Cohen, Harry Healey, rh John Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Walter, Mr. Robert Cooper, Rosie Hemming, John Main, Anne Waterson, Mr. Nigel Corbyn, Jeremy Henderson, Mr. Doug Malins, Mr. Humfrey Watkinson, Angela Cousins, Jim Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Maples, Mr. John Willetts, Mr. David Crausby, Mr. David Hesford, Stephen Maude, rh Mr. Francis Wilshire, Mr. David Creagh, Mary Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia McIntosh, Miss Anne Wilson, Mr. Rob Cruddas, Jon Heyes, David Miller, Mrs. Maria Winterton, Ann Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hill, rh Keith Milton, Anne Winterton, Sir Nicholas Cummings, John Holmes, Paul Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hood, Mr. Jim Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Wright, Jeremy Moss, Mr. Malcolm Cunningham, Tony Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Yeo, Mr. Tim Mundell, David Davey, Mr. Edward Hopkins, Kelvin Young, rh Sir George Murrison, Dr. Andrew David, Mr. Wayne Horwood, Martin Neill, Robert Tellers for the Ayes: Davidson, Mr. Ian Hosie, Stewart Newmark, Mr. Brooks Bill Wiggin and Davies, Mr. Dai Howarth, David O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Mr. Stephen Crabb Davies, Mr. Quentin Howarth, rh Mr. George Dean, Mrs. Janet Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay NOES Denham, rh Mr. John Hughes, rh Beverley Dismore, Mr. Andrew Humble, Mrs. Joan Abbott, Ms Diane Balls, rh Ed Dobbin, Jim Hunter, Mark Ainger, Nick Banks, Gordon Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Hutton, rh Mr. John Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Barlow, Ms Celia Doran, Mr. Frank Iddon, Dr. Brian Alexander, Danny Barrett, John Dowd, Jim Illsley, Mr. Eric Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Drew, Mr. David Irranca-Davies, Huw Allen, Mr. Graham Battle, rh John Durkan, Mark Jackson, Glenda Anderson, Mr. David Bayley, Hugh Eagle, Angela James, Mrs. Siân C. Armstrong, rh Hilary Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Maria Jenkins, Mr. Brian Atkins, Charlotte Begg, Miss Anne Efford, Clive Johnson, Ms Diana R. Austin, Mr. Ian Bell, Sir Stuart Ellman, Mrs. Louise Jones, Helen Austin, John Benton, Mr. Joe Engel, Natascha Jones, Lynne Bailey, Mr. Adrian Berry, Roger Ennis, Jeff Jones, Mr. Martyn Baird, Vera Betts, Mr. Clive Etherington, Bill Joyce, Mr. Eric 381 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 382

Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Olner, Mr. Bill Touhig, rh Mr. Don Williams, Hywel Keeble, Ms Sally Osborne, Sandra Trickett, Jon Williams, Mark Keeley, Barbara Owen, Albert Turner, Dr. Desmond Williams, Mr. Roger Keen, Alan Palmer, Dr. Nick Turner, Mr. Neil Willott, Jenny Keetch, Mr. Paul Pearson, Ian Twigg, Derek Wills, rh Mr. Michael Kemp, Mr. Fraser Plaskitt, Mr. James Ussher, Kitty Wilson, Phil Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Pope, Mr. Greg Vis, Dr. Rudi Winnick, Mr. David Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Pound, Stephen Walley, Joan Wishart, Pete Kidney, Mr. David Prentice, Bridget Waltho, Lynda Wood, Mike Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Prentice, Mr. Gordon Ward, Claire Woolas, Mr. Phil Knight, rh Jim Prescott, rh Mr. John Watson, Mr. Tom Wright, Mr. Anthony Kramer, Susan Price, Adam Watts, Mr. Dave Wright, David Kumar, Dr. Ashok Primarolo, rh Dawn Webb, Steve Wright, Mr. Iain Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Prosser, Gwyn Weir, Mr. Mike Wright, Dr. Tony Lammy, rh Mr. David Purnell, rh James Whitehead, Dr. Alan Younger-Ross, Richard Laxton, Mr. Bob Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Wicks, rh Malcolm Tellers for the Noes: Lazarowicz, Mark Reed, Mr. Andy Williams, rh Mr. Alan Mrs. Sharon Hodgson and Leech, Mr. John Reed, Mr. Jamie Williams, Mrs. Betty Mr. John Heppell Lepper, David Reid, Mr. Alan Levitt, Tom Reid, rh John Lewis, Mr. Ivan Rennie, Willie Question accordingly negatived. Linton, Martin Riordan, Mrs. Linda Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Robertson, Angus Lucas, Ian Robertson, John Clause 9 MacNeil, Mr. Angus Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Robinson, rh Mr. Peter OFFENCES Mactaggart, Fiona Rogerson, Dan Amendment made: 87, in clause 9, page 6, line 27, leave Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Rooney, Mr. Terry out from ‘included’ to the end of line 28 and insert Malik, Mr. Shahid Roy, Mr. Frank Mallaber, Judy Ruane, Chris ‘by virtue of section 5(10) (prohibition on paid advocacy) in the Mann, John Russell, Bob MPs’ code of conduct relating to financial interests.’.— Marris, Rob Russell, Christine (Mr. Blizzard.) Marsden, Mr. Gordon Salter, Martin Clause 9, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Martlew, Mr. Eric Sanders, Mr. Adrian Mason, John Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Seabeck, Alison Clause 10 McCabe, Steve Sharma, Mr. Virendra McCarthy, Kerry Shaw, Jonathan PROCEEDINGS IN PARLIAMENT McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Sheerman, Mr. Barry Amendments made: 23, page 7, line 8, after ‘evidence’, McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Sheridan, Jim insert McCrea, Dr. William Simon, Mr. Siôn ‘of words spoken by, or any other conduct of, a Member of the McDonagh, Siobhain Simpson, David House of Commons in proceedings in Parliament’. McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Singh, Mr. Marsha McDonnell, John Skinner, Mr. Dennis Amendment 24, page 7, line 8, leave out ‘a’ and insert McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Slaughter, Mr. Andy ‘that’.—(Sir Stuart Bell.) McGovern, Mr. Jim Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Question put, That the clause, as amended, stand part McGrady, Mr. Eddie Smith, Ms Angela C. of the Bill. McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne (Sheffield, Hillsborough) McIsaac, Shona Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) The House divided: Ayes 247, Noes 250. McKechin, Ann Smith, Geraldine Division No. 178] [5.27 pm McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Smith, rh Jacqui Meale, Mr. Alan Smith, Sir Robert AYES Merron, Gillian Snelgrove, Anne Michael, rh Alun Southworth, Helen Ainger, Nick Berry, Roger Miliband, rh Edward Spellar, rh Mr. John Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Betts, Mr. Clive Miller, Andrew Spink, Bob Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Blackman, Liz Moffatt, Laura Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Allen, Mr. Graham Blears, rh Hazel Mole, Chris Stoate, Dr. Howard Anderson, Mr. David Blizzard, Mr. Bob Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Armstrong, rh Hilary Blunkett, rh Mr. David Morden, Jessica Straw, rh Mr. Jack Atkins, Charlotte Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Morgan, Julie Stunell, Andrew Austin, Mr. Ian Brennan, Kevin Mudie, Mr. George Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Bailey, Mr. Adrian Brown, Lyn Mulholland, Greg Swinson, Jo Baird, Vera Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Mullin, Mr. Chris Tami, Mark Balls, rh Ed Brown, Mr. Russell Munn, Meg Taylor, David Banks, Gordon Bryant, Chris Murphy, Mr. Denis Taylor, Dr. Richard Barlow, Ms Celia Burden, Richard Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Teather, Sarah Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Burgon, Colin Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Thomas, Mr. Gareth Battle, rh John Burnham, rh Andy Norris, Dan Thornberry, Emily Bayley, Hugh Butler, Ms Dawn O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Thurso, John Begg, Miss Anne Byrne, rh Mr. Liam O’Hara, Mr. Edward Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Bell, Sir Stuart Cairns, David Oaten, Mr. Mark Todd, Mr. Mark Benton, Mr. Joe Campbell, Mr. Alan 383 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 384

Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Heyes, David Owen, Albert Spink, Bob Caton, Mr. Martin Hill, rh Keith Palmer, Dr. Nick Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hood, Mr. Jim Pearson, Ian Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Chapman, Ben Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Plaskitt, Mr. James Straw, rh Mr. Jack Clapham, Mr. Michael Howarth, rh Mr. George Prentice, Bridget Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Clark, Paul Howells, rh Dr. Kim Prescott, rh Mr. John Tami, Mark Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Primarolo, rh Dawn Thomas, Mr. Gareth Clelland, Mr. David Hughes, rh Beverley Prosser, Gwyn Thornberry, Emily Clwyd, rh Ann Humble, Mrs. Joan Purnell, rh James Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Coaker, Mr. Vernon Iddon, Dr. Brian Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Todd, Mr. Mark Coffey, Ann Illsley, Mr. Eric Reed, Mr. Jamie Touhig, rh Mr. Don Cohen, Harry Irranca-Davies, Huw Riordan, Mrs. Linda Trickett, Jon Connarty, Michael Jackson, Glenda Robertson, John Turner, Dr. Desmond Cooper, Rosie James, Mrs. Siân C. Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Turner, Mr. Neil Cousins, Jim Johnson, Ms Diana R. Roy, Mr. Frank Twigg, Derek Crausby, Mr. David Jones, Helen Ruane, Chris Ussher, Kitty Creagh, Mary Jones, Mr. Martyn Russell, Christine Walley, Joan Cruddas, Jon Joyce, Mr. Eric Salter, Martin Waltho, Lynda Cryer, Mrs. Ann Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Ward, Claire Cummings, John Keeble, Ms Sally Seabeck, Alison Watts, Mr. Dave Cunningham, Mr. Jim Keeley, Barbara Shaw, Jonathan Whitehead, Dr. Alan Cunningham, Tony Keen, Alan Sheerman, Mr. Barry Wicks, rh Malcolm David, Mr. Wayne Kemp, Mr. Fraser Sheridan, Jim Williams, rh Mr. Alan Davidson, Mr. Ian Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Simon, Mr. Siôn Williams, Mrs. Betty Davies, Mr. Quentin Kidney, Mr. David Singh, Mr. Marsha Wills, rh Mr. Michael Dean, Mrs. Janet Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Skinner, Mr. Dennis Wilson, Phil Denham, rh Mr. John Knight, rh Jim Slaughter, Mr. Andy Winnick, Mr. David Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Woolas, Mr. Phil Dobbin, Jim Lammy, rh Mr. David Smith, Ms Angela C. Wright, Mr. Anthony Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Laxton, Mr. Bob (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Wright, David Doran, Mr. Frank Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Wright, Mr. Iain Eagle, Angela Lepper, David Smith, Geraldine Wright, Dr. Tony Eagle, Maria Levitt, Tom Smith, rh Jacqui Efford, Clive Lewis, Mr. Ivan Snelgrove, Anne Tellers for the Ayes: Ellman, Mrs. Louise Linton, Martin Southworth, Helen Mr. John Heppell and Engel, Natascha Lucas, Ian Spellar, rh Mr. John Mrs. Sharon Hodgson Ennis, Jeff Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Etherington, Bill Malik, Mr. Shahid NOES Fitzpatrick, Jim Mallaber, Judy Flello, Mr. Robert Mann, John Abbott, Ms Diane Cameron, rh Mr. David Flint, rh Caroline Marsden, Mr. Gordon Afriyie, Adam Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Follett, Barbara McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Carswell, Mr. Douglas Foster, Mr. Michael McCabe, Steve Alexander, Danny Cash, Mr. William (Worcester) McCarthy, Kerry Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Chope, Mr. Christopher Foster, Michael Jabez McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Clark, Greg (Hastings and Rye) McDonagh, Siobhain Atkinson, Mr. Peter Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Francis, Dr. Hywel McDonnell, John Austin, John Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Gapes, Mike McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Baldry, Tony Corbyn, Jeremy Gardiner, Barry McGovern, Mr. Jim Barker, Gregory Cormack, Sir Patrick George, rh Mr. Bruce McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Barrett, John Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Gerrard, Mr. Neil McIsaac, Shona Beckett, rh Margaret Curry, rh Mr. David Gilroy, Linda McKechin, Ann Beith, rh Sir Alan Davey, Mr. Edward Godsiff, Mr. Roger McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Benyon, Mr. Richard Davies, Mr. Dai Goggins, rh Paul Merron, Gillian Beresford, Sir Paul Davies, David T.C. Goodman, Helen Michael, rh Alun Binley, Mr. Brian (Monmouth) Griffith, Nia Miller, Andrew Blunt, Mr. Crispin Davis, rh David Griffiths, Nigel Moffatt, Laura Bone, Mr. Peter Dismore, Mr. Andrew Grogan, Mr. John Mole, Chris Borrow, Mr. David S. Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Gwynne, Andrew Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Brady, Mr. Graham Dorries, Nadine Hain, rh Mr. Peter Morden, Jessica Brake, Tom Dowd, Jim Hall, Mr. Mike Morgan, Julie Brazier, Mr. Julian Drew, Mr. David Hall, Patrick Mudie, Mr. George Breed, Mr. Colin Duddridge, James Hamilton, Mr. David Mullin, Mr. Chris Brokenshire, James Duncan, Alan Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Munn, Meg Brooke, Annette Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Hanson, rh Mr. David Murphy, Mr. Denis Browne, Mr. Jeremy Dunne, Mr. Philip Harman, rh Ms Harriet Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Bruce, rh Malcolm Durkan, Mark Harris, Mr. Tom Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Burns, Mr. Simon Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Havard, Mr. Dai Norris, Dan Burrowes, Mr. David Evans, Mr. Nigel Healey, rh John O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Burt, Alistair Evennett, Mr. David Henderson, Mr. Doug O’Hara, Mr. Edward Burt, Lorely Fallon, Mr. Michael Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Olner, Mr. Bill Butterfill, Sir John Farron, Tim Hesford, Stephen Osborne, Sandra Cable, Dr. Vincent Featherstone, Lynne 385 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 386

Field, Mr. Mark Loughton, Tim Stuart, Ms Gisela Waterson, Mr. Nigel Fisher, Mark Love, Mr. Andrew Stuart, Mr. Graham Watkinson, Angela Flynn, Paul Luff, Peter Stunell, Andrew Webb, Steve Fox, Dr. Liam Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Swinson, Jo Weir, Mr. Mike Fraser, Christopher MacNeil, Mr. Angus Swire, Mr. Hugo Willetts, Mr. David Garnier, Mr. Edward Mactaggart, Fiona Syms, Mr. Robert Williams, Hywel Gauke, Mr. David Main, Anne Tapsell, Sir Peter Williams, Mark George, Andrew Malins, Mr. Humfrey Taylor, David Williams, Mr. Roger Gibb, Mr. Nick Maples, Mr. John Taylor, Mr. Ian Willott, Jenny Gidley, Sandra Mason, John Teather, Sarah Wilshire, Mr. David Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl Maude, rh Mr. Francis Thurso, John Wilson, Mr. Rob Goldsworthy, Julia McCrea, Dr. William Timpson, Mr. Edward Winterton, Ann Goodman, Mr. Paul McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Tredinnick, David Winterton, Sir Nicholas Goodwill, Mr. Robert McGrady, Mr. Eddie Turner, Mr. Andrew Wishart, Pete Gove, Michael McIntosh, Miss Anne Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Wood, Mike Gray, Mr. James McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Vara, Mr. Shailesh Wright, Jeremy Grayling, Chris Meale, Mr. Alan Viggers, Sir Peter Yeo, Mr. Tim Greening, Justine Miller, Mrs. Maria Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Young, rh Sir George Grieve, Mr. Dominic Milton, Anne Vis, Dr. Rudi Younger-Ross, Richard Gummer, rh Mr. John Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Walker, Mr. Charles Hague, rh Mr. William Moss, Mr. Malcolm Wallace, Mr. Ben Tellers for the Noes: Hammond, Mr. Philip Mulholland, Greg Walter, Mr. Robert Mr. Stephen Crabb and Hammond, Stephen Mundell, David Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Bill Wiggin Hancock, Mr. Mike Murrison, Dr. Andrew Harper, Mr. Mark Naysmith, Dr. Doug Question accordingly negatived. Harris, Dr. Evan Neill, Robert Harvey, Nick Newmark, Mr. Brooks Mr. Gerald Howarth: On a point of order, Sir Alan. Hayes, Mr. John O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Notwithstanding the splendid outcome of that Division, Heald, Mr. Oliver Oaten, Mr. Mark which surely represents the passion of the House on this Heathcoat-Amory, rh Öpik, Lembit matter and is a serious affront to the Justice Secretary, I Mr. David Osborne, Mr. George believe that it is a constitutional outrage that a clause Hemming, John Ottaway, Richard Hoban, Mr. Mark Paterson, Mr. Owen described by the learned Clerk as possibly having Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Penning, Mike “a chilling effect on the freedom of speech of Members” Hollobone, Mr. Philip Penrose, John has not had a moment’s debate in this Chamber. If it Holloway, Mr. Adam Pickles, Mr. Eric was not for right hon. and hon. Members having voted Holmes, Paul Pope, Mr. Greg against the clause by three votes, despite the Government Hopkins, Kelvin Prentice, Mr. Gordon Whips’ attempts to stop them, we would not be able to Horam, Mr. John Price, Adam debate it. Horwood, Martin Prisk, Mr. Mark Hosie, Stewart Pritchard, Mark The Chairman: Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman Howard, rh Mr. Michael Randall, Mr. John has got away with quite a bit there—on a point of order Howarth, David Redwood, rh Mr. John that is not strictly so. He knows that I cannot respond Howarth, Mr. Gerald Reid, Mr. Alan to that. Howell, John Reid, rh John Hughes, Simon Rennie, Willie Sir Alan Beith: On a point of order, Sir Alan. I Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm wonder whether I might give you notice that I am very Hunter, Mark Robathan, Mr. Andrew happy that my amendment on Report, amendment 16, Jack, rh Mr. Michael Robertson, Angus now falls, because it was an amendment to leave out Jackson, Mr. Stewart Robertson, Hugh clause 10. I hope that the Justice Secretary, rather than Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Robertson, Mr. Laurence treating the situation as an affront, will take it as a Jones, Mr. David Robinson, rh Mr. Peter recognition that the primary purpose of the Bill did not Jones, Lynne Rogerson, Dan Kawczynski, Daniel Rosindell, Andrew require clause 10, that we can set up the necessary body Keetch, Mr. Paul Ruffley, Mr. David without it, and that he should now get on and do so to Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Russell, Bob the general satisfaction of the House. Key, Robert Sanders, Mr. Adrian The Chairman: I assure the right hon. Gentleman Kirkbride, Miss Julie Scott, Mr. Lee that the necessary changes to the order of selection will Knight, rh Mr. Greg Selous, Andrew Kramer, Susan Shapps, Grant take place on Report. Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Sharma, Mr. Virendra Mr. Grieve: Further to that point of order, Sir Alan. I Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Shepherd, Mr. Richard appreciate that we are about to embark on the Report Lancaster, Mr. Mark Simmonds, Mark stage of the Bill, but considerable consequences, in the Lansley, Mr. Andrew Simpson, Alan form of consequential amendments, might flow from Leech, Mr. John Simpson, David the disappearance of clause 10. We are about to embark Leigh, Mr. Edward Smith, Sir Robert on the process that will result in the Bill’s leaving this Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Soames, Mr. Nicholas House in about an hour and 20 minutes’ time. Have you Lewis, Dr. Julian Spicer, Sir Michael had any notice of a statement from the Secretary of Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Spring, Mr. Richard State about how the Government wish to proceed with Lidington, Mr. David Stanley, rh Sir John this legislation, in view of what has happened? Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Steen, Mr. Anthony Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Streeter, Mr. Gary Mr. Straw rose— 387 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 388

The Chairman: I call Mr. Jack Straw. 5.43 pm Alan Duncan: I beg to move, That the clause be read a Mr. Straw: Further to that point of order, Sir Alan. It Second time. is fair to say that you have not had notice of such a statement, because we have only just learned of the I wish to make reference to the significance of what decision of the House, by 250 votes to 247. Of course, I we are doing in creating the Independent Parliamentary understand the concerns of the House. We will respect Standards Authority in terms of the law that will affect the decision. [Interruption.] The Opposition Chief Whip us and our expenses under the Data Protection Act 1998. is supposed to be silent, as he knows—that is what he is Very simply, one of the most important elements of the paid for. Data Protection Act is who is responsible for holding I say to the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed the data and therefore who is responsible for answering (Sir Alan Beith) that although we will not be able to do freedom of information requests—and ultimately, I suppose, so on Report, we will take full account of the decision for making decisions along the lines of what is published of the House in the consequential amendments in the and whether it has to be redacted and, to our great other place. embarrassment, how. The Bill will set up IPSA, but it remains unclear as to The Chairman: The Secretary of State said that he when responsibility for controlling and holding the data had no notice of the situation; no more did I. I am sure, will pass to it. It is obviously absurd to assume that that however, that our advisers will ensure that we do everything responsibility can pass on the day that the Bill receives in order henceforth. Royal Assent, because the apparatus to handle it will The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. simply not exist. It therefore makes good sense, in order to have an orderly transition, to try to specify a date on Bill, as amended, reported. which the baton of responsibility is passed from this House to the new independent body, perhaps with an Mr. Cash: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. enormous collective parliamentary sigh of relief, leaving In 1993, Speaker Boothroyd gave a warning that, in it to others to decide how data relating to our expenses respect of article IX of the Bill of Rights, the courts can be handled, published and released. should not interfere in the proceedings of the House. The new clause suggests that there should be a period New clause 7 deals with article IX of the Bill of Rights of two months between the Bill receiving Royal Assent and new clause 8 deals with the supremacy of Parliament. and the date on which the responsibility should formally They go to the very heart of how we are governed in this pass. It is a very simple, uncontroversial proposal. If, for country. Some 40 Members of Parliament have signed any reason, the Government believe that it should be, the new clauses, which are, furthermore, in the name of say, three months, we would not argue strongly about the official Opposition. Against that background, may I that. However, the principle of making it absolutely ask for your ruling on how it can be that those two new clear when this House relinquishes responsibility for the clauses have not been selected for debate, as a result of administration of our expenses is essential if we are to which the House has been put in peril? avoid more of the calamitous coverage that we have suffered from over the past few weeks. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Member and he knows that no explanation I merely ask the Minister to tell the House whether is given for the selection of amendments. I did not the Government are prepared to accept the new clause, participate in the decision, and there is nothing that the in whole or in principle. Depending on the reply, we can Chair can say. It is customary for the selection to be either decide to withdraw it, and perhaps let the other made and for the House to accept the consequences. place table another one, or to press ahead with it. Whether there will be further opportunities in the course of proceedings on the Bill is another matter. I cannot go Sir Robert Smith: The hon. Member for Rutland and further than that. Melton (Alan Duncan) makes an important point about the transition of responsibility and clarifying when and Mr. Jenkin: Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy how it happens. The Government’s reply may deal with Speaker. Without wishing to ask you what the rationale the practicalities of whether two months is the appropriate might be, I speculate that aspects of the Bill— period. I agree with him that the Government should explain how they plan to do this and when, and make it Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman is clear, perhaps in another place, exactly what the date also a very experienced Member, and he is not going to should be. get away with that. Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Committee Mr. Redwood: One of the many muddles that the Bill (Programme Order of 29 June) is getting Parliament into is the muddle over how staff will transfer and when the body will be established. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) has tabled this new clause New Clause 1 suggesting some clarity over the data controller aspect. However, it is not possible to put a time on when that DATA CONTROLLER could take place unless we know how long it will take to ‘The IPSA shall become the data controller for the purposes of set up the body and to appoint all the relevant staff. the Data Protection Act 1998 two months after the day this Act is I hope that the Justice Secretary will use this opportunity passed.’—(Alan Duncan.) to say something to our staff, who are in need of Brought up, and read the First time. reassurance or some statement from their employer 389 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 390

[Mr. John Redwood] Mr. Garnier: It is a matter of regrettable record that in the past 18 months or so, this House in its various about how they are going to be treated. Does he know guises has been in dispute with the Information when the Bill might be enacted? Is it possible that we Commissioner about applications in relation to the can do this quickly, perhaps within two months? It will Freedom of Information Act 2000, the keeping of our be easier to do it if the current arrangements for staff expenses records and so forth. That has led to matters transfer, under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection being taken to the High Court on two occasions, at of Employment) Regulations 1981 or some similar considerable public expense. None of us—or at least arrangement, apply and if staff have been told that they only a very few of us, and I was not one of them—was will transfer so that the system can continue much as it asked for our view on that matter, but we are now none has up to this point. If that is not the intention, a good the less staring at the consequences of the High Court’s employer would warn staff and start consulting on decision. [Interruption.] It is interesting how one gets what the arrangements will be, and it might be quite conflicting instructions from time to time. I say to my difficult to hit this particular deadline. hon. Friend the Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan), Although I welcome the spirit of my hon. Friend’s “Relax, mon brave.” new clause—it is right that we need clarity over the data That having been said, I wonder whether the Secretary protection aspects—I am worried about the general of State, or whichever Minister is to respond to this issue of whether this body can be set up quickly and very short debate, will be able to tell me whether they or whether the Justice Secretary thinks that its staffing any other arm of the Government have communicated arrangements will be more competent and better than with the new Information Commissioner to see how he those that we currently have, and if so, why he thinks is approaching the Bill. For example, I wonder whether that. Above all, he owes to our staff, now—it should he has a view about whether the Independent Parliamentary have been done some time ago—proper procedures for Standards Authority should become the data controller informing and consulting them. for the purposes of the Data Protection Act 1998. I entirely agree with the thrust of the points that my Mr. Bone: My right hon. Friend talks about the time hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan question, but should the change not be delayed until Duncan) made, but we need somebody to deal with the after Sir Christopher Kelly reports? Otherwise, we could matter. Unless that is explicit in the Bill, it will cause have a complete fiasco with what he says. unnecessary confusion. If we are not very careful, we could get into the same sort of difficulty as in the past. Mr. Redwood: Yes, and some of us made that point in previous debates, when it was more relevant. The relevance Mr. Straw: I am grateful to the hon. Member for of timing here, as I am sure my hon. Friend had in Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) for raising this mind, is that the new clause is about the timing of part matter. It may help if I explain how the Data Protection of the transfer of duties. As he and I are trying to point Act 1998 and the Freedom of Information Act 2000 out, the duty cannot be transferred until the body has will work in respect of the new authority. been set up and is working. We need to be satisfied that it is working competently and sensibly. Section 1 of the Data Protection Act defines a data controller as There are a lot of people involved, and the way in which they have been treated is shoddy and appalling. I “a person who (either alone or jointly or in common with other am sure that if it had happened in the private sector, the persons) determines the purposes for which and the manner in Government would have been jumping up and down which any personal data are, or are to be, processed”. complaining and asking whether things had been done Whether someone is a data controller is not a matter of properly. I hope that we will have a statement on the election by that individual but subject to an objective matter, and that the new clause will give us an opportunity test. As soon as IPSA arrives at a situation in which it is to probe a little more how all the arrangements for a determining the purposes for which, or the manner in smooth transfer will be put in place if the Government which, any personal data that it holds are to be processed, are determined to carry on with the establishment of it will become a data controller. I am grateful to the this quango. hon. Gentleman for raising the matter, but I hope that he will accept that the new clause is not necessary. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I have to announce to the House The new clause mentions “two months”. On Second the result of a Division deferred from a previous day on Reading, which seems two years ago, but was only two the Question relating to environmental protection. The days, several stirring victories and one defeat ago, I gave Ayes were 269 and the Noes were 196, so the Ayes an undertaking about the likely time scale. I suggested have it. that, with the likelihood of Sir Christopher Kelly’s I shall also announce the result of a Division deferred recommendations being available in October, and taking from a previous day on the Question relating to the account of the time for running a competition to appoint summer Adjournment. The Ayes were 254 and the the senior people to the authority, for the authority then Noes were 212, so the Ayes have it. to appoint a chief executive and for the transfer of staff, which the right hon. Member for Wokingham I shall also announce the result of a Division deferred (Mr. Redwood) raised, we are aiming for Sir Christopher from a previous day on the Question relating to notices Kelly’s proposals, and the new authority, to start operating of questions etc. during September 2009. The Ayes on 1 January next year. It is not remotely likely that the were 465 and the Noes were 3, so the Ayes have it. authority will be up and running in two months. Assuming [The Division lists are published at the end of today’s that we get Royal Assent by the end of July, that would debates.] mean establishing the authority by the end of September. 391 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 392

I therefore hope that the hon. Member for Rutland Amendment 2, in clause 13, page 9, line 24, leave out and Melton (Alan Duncan) accepts that the first part of from ‘section’ to end of line 25 and insert the new clause is unnecessary and the second is not ‘shall not be made unless a draft of the instrument has first been achievable. Apart from that, it is fine. It has provided an laid before, and approved by a resolution of, the House of important platform for a useful debate. Commons.’. Under clause 14, clauses 12, 13 and 14 come into Government amendments 12 to 15. force by statutory instrument, and different days can be Mr. Straw: Colleagues will find Government appointed for different purposes. That is standard form, amendment 7 on page 1059 of the Order Paper. It so the exact time at which the authority comes into makes it clear that although allowances relate to a force depends on when it is ready. I should also point Member, money under allowances can be paid to somebody out that that, like the Bill, will be the formal responsibility else, which may include our staff or those with whom of the Leader of the House, because the measure is we contract. essentially a creature spawned by the House, not by a Department—although I have been delighted to play 6pm my role in ensuring that it is improved, as it has been. Government amendments 8, 9 and 10 are relatively As the hon. Member for Rutland and Melton will minor, and I commend them to the House. As for recall, paragraph 27 of schedule 1 and paragraph 10 of Government amendment 12, the hon. and learned Member schedule 2 provide that IPSA and the commissioner for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) will recall that he asked become public authorities for the purposes of the Freedom whether a serving member of the senior judiciary could of Information Act 2000; the House has agreed that. be appointed. We are now making that clear in the Bill, Those provisions will come into force when the authority and I am happy to oblige. has some information that will make it the subject of Government amendments 13, 14 and 15 will require FOI requests. That will happen as soon as it becomes the Speaker, rather than the IPSA, to lay the relevant operational. I hope that that helps, and that the hon. notices and orders before the House, which is important. Gentleman will therefore be willing to withdraw the That is consistent with, for example, the arrangements new clause. in respect of the Boundary Commission. As the Secretary of State for Justice, I am the conduit for orders from the Alan Duncan: I am grateful to the Secretary of State Boundary Commission for changes to boundaries, but I for his comments. I suppose that I was trying to make a am required to lay the order before the House and plea for the appointments not to take so long that the ensure that it is put to a vote. Our amendments square authority does not assume responsibilities until early the circle, in that there has to be a sponsor for the next year, because in the meantime we will have the rag provisions, namely the Speaker, but they have to come ends of another year’s published receipts. If there is an before the House. However, what it does with those unclear grip on that process because of the transition of orders is entirely a matter for the House. the responsibilities from the House to the new authority, that is likely to compound the problem. Mr. Grieve: I welcome the Government’s amendments. Government amendment 7 clearly reflects the comments Mr. Straw: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that were made on an earlier occasion about the reality allowing me to intervene, because now that we are no of how our allowances work in this place. Amendment 12, longer in Committee I cannot speak twice except with which takes on board the concerns that were expressed the leave of the Chair. I simply want to say that we aim about members of the judiciary, also seems sensible. to make progress as fast as we can now that we have had Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Second Reading and Committee—taking account, of Green) (Con): Does my hon. and learned Friend not course, of possible further change at the other end of agree that amendment 7 is a classic illustration of what the building. happens when we try to rush such legislation through? That such a basic reality had been missed in the original Alan Duncan: I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw drafting makes one’s jaw drop at the bad legislation that the clause. we are now witnessing. Clause, by leave, withdrawn. Mr. Grieve: I agree entirely with my right hon. Friend. At some point in the next hour, we may or may not get Third Reading. However, the reality is that the Bill in its Clause 4 present form is incoherent and filleted. It will have to be put back together again, but it is extraordinary that it is DEALING WITH CLAIMS UNDER THE SCHEME in another place that that will happen. Yet again, a Bill that intimately concerns this House will, at the end of Mr. Straw: I beg to move amendment 7, page 3, the day, leave this House in a form in which it could line 13, at end insert— never go on the statute book. If ever there was a lesson to be learned about the failings of our procedures, ‘(7) The scheme may provide for an allowance to which a member is entitled under the scheme to be paid to another which, as has rightly been said, are just as important as person at the member’s direction; and references in this Act to any other failings in our allowances in diminishing the the payment of an allowance to a member are to be read standing of this place, it is that. Although I welcome the accordingly.’. one or two amendments that we are dealing with to tidy things up, the truth is that we are tidying something up Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient that, at the moment, is a hovel of a piece of legislation. to discuss the following: Government amendments 8 A great deal will have to be done to it before it is to 11. inflicted on the world outside. 393 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 394

Sir Robert Smith: I welcome the fact that we have at drafting suggested that the Lords should be covered, least some time on Report in which to see some but the reference is being struck out quickly from the improvements and acknowledge some of the requirements Bill before it goes to the other end of the corridor. that arose in Committee. However, I share the concerns of others that the Bill has not been properly scrutinised Mr. Straw: Let me explain that this relates to the in this House and will need to be dealt with in the other definition clause and particularly to the tenure period place. for members of IPSA and the commissioner. It was agreed without argument across the Chamber that the Sir George Young: I am grateful for Government commissioner or members of the authority could be amendment 7, which reproduces, at 10 times the length, removed only on the basis of an address from both the four words that I had drafted as amendment 6 to Houses of Parliament, but there was a restriction on clause 4 yesterday. I want briefly to speak to amendment 2, how that address could get on to the Floor of either in the hope that the hon. Member for Middlesbrough House: it had to be moved either by the Leader of the (Sir Stuart Bell) and I might score a final quick single House of Commons or by the Leader of the House of before stumps are finally drawn. Lords. We agreed to take that out. That being the case, and with no substantive reference to the Leader of the The order-making power in clause 13 is wide-ranging House of Lords anywhere else in the Bill, the definition and substantial. It provides for the Government and the could be dropped as completely redundant. That is the Speaker to draw up a scheme for transferring property reason for the change. rights and liabilities of the House to IPSA and for the order containing such a scheme to be subject to annulment Mr. Redwood: It is useful to have elicited that explanation by either House of Parliament, which may or may not and have it put on the record before the Bill goes to the lead to a debate and a vote. other place, but I rest my case. The original intention As drafted, the clause is objectionable on two grounds. was that both Houses should be covered. We are now First, it does not guarantee proper scrutiny of such assured that that is not the immediate intention, and I orders; secondly, it gives the other place power to annul trust that this issue, which might be of considerable a scheme that affects only this House. The amendment interest in the other place, will be teased out further in tabled by the hon. Member for Middlesbrough would any debate there. deal with both objections by requiring all orders containing Amendment 7 agreed to. transitional provision to be laid in draft before the Commons only and by making them subject to the Clause 5 affirmative procedure order, thus obliging the Government to make time available either on the Floor of the House MPS’ FINANCIAL INTERESTS RULES or Upstairs to provide the opportunity for a vote to take Amendment made: 8, in page 3, line 38, leave out place. I hope that the amendment will find favour with subsection (9).—(Mr. Straw.) Government Front Benchers. Clause 7 Sir Alan Beith: Amendment 7 is obviously necessary, but I am afraid that it will never be sufficient to disabuse INVESTIGATIONS sections of the press of the view that MPs claim, Mr. Jenkin: I beg to move amendment 6, page 4, personally collect and leave in their bank accounts a line 33, at end insert— wide range of allowances for constituency office rents and staff wages. Numerous newspaper stories still appear ‘(1A) Any investigations under this section shall be deemed to implying that those allowances, which are actually be proceedings in Parliament as expressed in the Bill of Rights 1689, notwithstanding any other provisions of this Act.’ transferred on to other people, are for the personal profit of the Member. I have often thought that a Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient similar analysis of the salary of the editor of a newspaper to discuss the following: amendment 4, page 4, line 42, that attributed to him the wages of that newspaper’s at end add— staff and the rent of the building would produce similarly ‘( ) Subsection (4) does not apply where the Commissioner bizarre effects. I am glad that the Government have finds that the member who was the subject of the investigation realised that direct payment is a valuable part of the complied fully with the Members of Parliament allowances system. scheme and with the code of conduct relating to financial interests as they relate to that investigation.’. Mr. Redwood: I want to highlight Government Amendment 3, page 5, line 1, leave out ‘IPSA’ and amendment 9, which the Justice Secretary did not explain. insert ‘Commissioner’. It is interesting because it strikes out lines 5 to 7 on Amendment 1, in clause 13, page 8, line 45, leave out page 8, which define subsections (5) and (6). “the Leader of the House of Lords”, Mr. Jenkin: I shall be extremely brief. The amendment as meaning is, very logically, an extension of the principle of removing “the Minister of the Crown who is for the time being designated clause 10 from the Bill. This is to make sure that as Leader of the House of Lords by the Prime Minister”. investigations under clause 7 I presume that the reference to the Leader of the House “shall be deemed to be proceedings in Parliament as expressed in of Lords is being knocked out because it might be the Bill of Rights 1689, notwithstanding any other provisions of thought inconvenient—for reasons of privilege and their this Act.” Lordships’ interest—to have any reference to the Lords All I would add is that the Parliamentary Commissioner when the Bill goes to the other place. That leads one to for Standards operates under that principle at the moment. question the original intent. It looks to me as if the This is independent regulation, but operating on the 395 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 396 same basis—that the investigations should be privileged. Mr. Duncan Smith: I do not want to interrupt my The provision also guards against double jeopardy. I right hon. Friend’s train of thought, but, having been a urge the House to support it. member of the Committee that introduced the Committee on Standards and Privileges, I have yet to hear from Sir Alan Beith: This is precisely the sort of amendment anyone that there is an urgent need for the arrangement that needs measured and leisurely consideration. Although to be changed. I know that we are not specifically I am sympathetic to it, I am not convinced that it is the discussing the case in question, but I have yet to understand right way to achieve the objective of the hon. Member that any other than the Leader of the House’s opinion for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin). I shall be interested to believes that the punishment should have been harsher. hear the Government’s response. Other than that, I am aware of no one in the media who Having entered that proviso, let me also say what an is saying, “If only we had some other system that is unusual delight it is to see an amendment of mine tougher than this one”, and none of my constituents carried before its even being reached. have written to me to say that. This system is generally Sir Stuart Bell: I wish to speak to amendment 1, accepted to be reasonable, fair and, at the right moments, which I tabled. harsh on those it needs to be harsh on. It was never expected that the Bill would be retrospective, but it is important for us to put the question of allowances 6.15 pm behind us, and it is important for the Bill to assist in Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: I am grateful for that intervention that procedure. I can tell the House that the review of because that is exactly my experience. We have all been allowances that has been authorised over the last four on the receiving end of a great deal of criticism about years has been put in train, that the House of Commons the expenses regime, and it is essential that we reform Commission, with the approval of all party leaders and that quickly, but, like my right hon. Friend, I have not Members on both sides of the House, has begun its received any criticism that the House Select Committee work, and that the terms of reference have been agreed. on Standards and Privileges is not doing, and has not Sir Thomas Legg is the distinguished chairman of the done, its job well. The Committee and its Chairman, review body; his independence is absolute and sacrosanct, my right hon. Friend the Member for North-West and must be seen to be so by the public. The review will Hampshire (Sir George Young), have to my knowledge cover four years of receipts, and it will be minute and never been criticised for having pulled their punches at thorough. all when Members have had to be disciplined. Despite My amendment is intended to remove any prospect, that, we are transferring a large part of these duties to should it exist, of a further review. I believe that a sword the new Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations. of Damocles would have been held over each and every We will have two commissioners; we have discovered Member if retrospection had operated, whether rightly that during the course of our debates on the Bill. My or wrongly. It has been suggested to me that there might point is that the new Commissioner for Parliamentary be a gap between the independent standards authority’s Investigations will be outside Parliament. Therefore, taking over and Sir Thomas Legg’s review, and that a according to the Bill of Rights, he will be a “place out mishap in the interstices—perhaps relating to of Parliament.” If I am wrong on that, I will be happy misbehaviour—might not be brought to the attention to be corrected. of the new body, which might cause a vacuum in the proceedings. As we know, however, the Committee on Sir Alan Beith: I understand the position to be that Standards and Privileges is still there, will continue to the commissioner will be unable to adduce proceedings be there, and can exercise its own authority and powers in Parliament in pursuit of a matter relating to Members’ should anything fall within those interstices. interests, and will therefore find himself concentrating on the expenses issue, which is the primary reason for Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: It seems to me that amendment 6 creating this body in the first place. It would be illogical is affected by the decision to remove clause 10, which to leave Members’ interests matters with the standards means that, as we understand it, the Bill of Rights 1689 committee. They can, of course, be looked at without will apply. The amendment would ensure that any reference to proceedings in Parliament; indeed, it is investigations under clause 7 were deemed to be proceedings often possible to do so. under that Bill. It occurs to me that the commissioner may not be able to conduct his investigations, because Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: That is a helpful intervention. he constitutes a body outside Parliament. I have no objection to the new commissioner looking The Bill states that proceedings in Parliament, which into matters of expenses, which is the subject of most of will now include the investigations under clause 7, cannot the controversy, if he really is essential, but, as the right be hon. Gentleman said, he will also be looking into other “impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament.” matters. To do that, he will have to look into our debates and reports of what has happened in our It seems to me that the commissioner, and indeed IPSA, Committees, and that will be prevented by the Bill of will constitute a “place out of Parliament”, because, Rights. unlike the Committee on Standards and Privileges or the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, they Sir Patrick Cormack: I entirely agree with the points will be independent and outside the jurisdiction of my right hon. Friend is making, but is he aware that the Parliament. That is the whole point of making them next business is the sunset clause, and it is crucial that independent, and that may reinforce the case for retaining we get on to that? a central role for the Committee on Standards and Privileges, which, being a parliamentary body, can quite Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: Well, I slightly resent that properly investigate proceedings that take place in the intervention actually, as I think this is an important House. matter. Although I do not intend to speak at length, I 397 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 398

[Mr. Heathcoat-Amory] like anybody else in the outside world, would be entitled to due process. Part of that involves the right of appeal, do think we need answers to some of these questions. which is simply not provided for in these provisions. We have not had many answers during this debate. I am fully aware that there are other matters to be decided, Mr. Grieve: I, too, wish to see the House move on as however, and I am sure they are important, too. quickly as possible to the sunset clause, but the points This Bill is a complete muddle. We are stumbling raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex forward without any idea of the consequences of what (Mr. Jenkin) merit consideration. In the vote that we we are doing. I may be wrong, but I would like some have just had, whereby clause 10 was removed from the light to be shone on this complicated matter before we Bill, the Committee made it transparently clear that proceed. whatever regime is set up to deal with our finances and allowances externally, it cannot and must not infringe Mr. Dismore: I rise to speak on amendments 4 and 3, article IX of the Bill of Rights. I therefore hope that the as realistically this is the only occasion when I can raise Secretary of State, in his reply to even this short debate, the question of the lack of a right to appeal as they deal will assure us that the Government recognise what the with issues relating to procedure and the setting of Committee was saying in that decision and will ensure those procedures. I do not want to repeat at length what that whatever is put together in the House of Lords to I said about this on Second Reading, because that rebuild this Bill will be done in a way that achieves that would be going back over old ground, but I think it is objective. important to recognise that there is no right of appeal I say that because although we have removed the for any Member in this process. If we are going to start clause that said that the Bill of Rights does not apply, looking at having outside regulation—whether through we have not secured anything that expressly says that it the commissioner setting his own process or, as the Bill does apply. I hope that the Secretary of State will, in the stands, through IPSA—to whom can a Member appeal? spirit of the vote that took place—the Committee was If amendment 4 passes, a report will not have to be trying hard to reach a consensus—indicate that he fully made. appreciates what that message was. It is clear that it is The Government argue that the Bill is compatible possible to have a regulatory regime in which our allowances with the right to a fair hearing because IPSA is independent, and salaries are dealt with externally to this House but my Committee report tagged to the debate does not without intruding on the Bill of Rights. That can happen accept that in respect of IPSA’s functions, the rules only if the Secretary of State is prepared to re-examine devised, the procedural safeguards designed and the clauses 7, 8 and 9—some other areas may also need to various investigation and enforcement powers. All that be examined in a bit of detail—in order to ensure that adds up to saying that IPSA is not an independent and what is put together conforms with the protection that impartial tribunal as required by article 6 of the European the Bill of Rights affords to our independence, and convention on human rights. Lord Bingham, in his freedom of speech and action. evidence to the Joint Committee on Parliamentary Without that, we will end up having further arguments Privilege said: when this Bill returns from the House of Lords. Although “I am always rather uneasy if any decision by anybody, however the Bill is not in a fit state to go on to any statute book wise and authoritative, is final and immune from any challenge, anywhere as it goes now to the House of Lords, I am and therefore the reason why I think it would be desirable to have pleased that the way in which it is going there gives the a route of challenge available is simply to eliminate that situation. other place a perfectly clear indication of what it must That was just one point that he made; it was not the full do to put the Bill right. I hope that the Government will quote. He went on to say that the way to deal with this co-operate in this process. Mindful of that, I hope that matter would be to have a right of appeal from the when the Secretary of State responds to the points that House to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. have been made, particularly those raised by my hon. I had tabled an amendment to that effect, but that was, Friend the Member for North Essex, who has performed unfortunately, not reached because of the guillotine—that such a sterling role in the passage of this legislation, he is another example of the problems that we have been will provide the assurance that he recognises that the experiencing. Bill of Rights will not be infringed upon in this legislation. If an outside body is to carry out our regulation and we are, thus, trying to externalise all this, we must have Mr. Straw: I shall go through the various points that the same protections as any other professional body in have been raised. I can first tell my hon. Friend the those circumstances. Until recently, the General Medical Member for Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell) that we Council and the General Dental Council both had will accept amendment 1, which removes subsections rights of appeal to the Privy Council for matters resulting (5) and (6) from clause 13. There was never the least from their determinations. That position has changed intention to make the Bill retrospective, but as anxiety slightly, but the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council about that has been expressed, I am happy to clarify the has developed expertise in determining such matters. It point. has learned to use this power sparingly and appropriately, and it would therefore be appropriate to consider that Sir Stuart Bell: Notwithstanding the short time available body as an option. The Judicial Committee of the Privy for this Bill, my right hon. Friend has been most Council already has a role in determining whether a understanding and given it his best shot. I am sure that Member of the House is subject to a statutory the House will join me in appreciating his acceptance of disqualification under section 7 of the House of Commons various amendments. Disqualification Act 1975, so no great new principle is involved. What I am proposing would simply mean that Mr. Straw: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those if a Member is subject to disciplinary proceedings, they, words. 399 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 400

Amendment 6 was tabled by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield. Of course, I respect the view of the House, North Essex (Mr. Jenkin)—Essex is a fine county.Ironically, but I also want there to be an overall scheme that is for those of us involved in the cross-party conversations, workable and effective—[Interruption.] May I have the it was originally suggested that there were two ways to hon. and learned Gentleman’s attention, since he asked handle the issue of privilege as far as IPSA and the the question? Clause 10 said: commissioner were concerned. I leave aside the issue of “No enactment or rule of law…is to prevent”— evidence of paid advocacy—how to deal with obtaining that is, article IX will not prevent— evidence when a charge under clause 9(3) is being pursued—for the moment. As far as the other two limbs “the IPSA from carrying out any of its functions” of what was clause 10 are concerned—it is, of course, or now dead—the original proposal was that we brought “the Commissioner from carrying out any of the Commissioner’s IPSA and the commissioner into the ring of privilege, functions”. and it was drafted to that effect. At that stage, there was The House is very clear, and one way through it is to do no market for that because, as we were trying to create a the reverse, which is what the hon. Member for North body independent of Parliament, it might look as though Essex proposed and it is something that we, too, considered. we were trying to have our cake and eat it by providing The third limb of the clause concerned that statutory and arm’s length body with privileges and “any evidence…being admissible in proceedings against a member even immunities that did not apply to any other body. of the House of Commons for an offence under section 9.” That was dropped in favour of carving privilege out of the operation of IPSA and the commissioner. Let me simply put a point before the House for consideration—we all have to think about this. The I endorse the words of the right hon. Member for exact issue has arisen in the past in respect of bribery. Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith). We do not rule When the matter was considered by a Joint Committee out the proposal in amendment 6—indeed, it was in on the issue of bribery some time ago, it was agreed that play at one point. I see the hon. and learned Member Members of the House of Commons or House of for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) smiling in agreement. Lords should not be exempt from prosecution for bribery However, it will require some thought. Although we are and that, in certain cases, the only evidence might be anxious to get the Bill through—that is certainly the what they had done in the House of Commons. explicit commitment of the Government and the Liberal Democrats and, by implication, of the Conservatives—I In order to get a bribery Bill on to the statute book, hope that the hon. Member for North Essex will join the issue is being further examined by the Joint Committee me and others to consider it. Contrary to the myth that on the draft Bribery Bill. We have put forward a draft this is some kind of supine Parliament, Parliaments Bill, copies of which are available in the Vote Office. since 1997 have been more assertive of opinion in the Clause 15 proposes that article IX of the Bill of Rights House against the Government of the day than any is not to prevent other. There is good research evidence to that effect “any evidence of…words spoken by a member of either from the professor of politics at Nottingham, whose House…or…any conduct of such a member in such proceedings…being admissible in proceedings against the member name escapes me at the moment. for a bribery offence or in related proceedings.” Mr. Grieve: The Justice Secretary heard what I said I would have accepted the amendment tabled by the earlier, and I hope that he will be able to give some right hon. Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George comfort to the House, especially as we are about to lose Young), which would, essentially, have put the third control of this Bill. If it were to go through the Lords limb of clause 10 into that form. without amendment, it could go on to the statute book Of course, I understand what the House has said, but and it would be incoherent. That could happen. Can he there is also a serious issue. There is an argument confirm that the will of the House to get rid of clause 10 between those on the two Front Benches about whether is fully understood by the Government and will be clause 9(3), which is the paid advocacy clause, is needed. respected? As I understand it, there is no argument but that paid advocacy should be the subject of criminal proceedings. 6.30 pm Mr. Grieve: I want to get on, but I think that I made Mr. Straw: I shall come to that. There was serious the position quite clear. I see paid advocacy as bribery anxiety in the House. I feel frustrated, although I know and the draft Bribery Bill provides the perfect vehicle that it is one of those things. We are trying to get the Bill for dealing with that and for ensuring that Members of through, and there is heavy pressure—this applies to Parliament are not exempt by virtue of the Bill of Governments of all descriptions, but it just happens to Rights. It seems to me that what was clearly stated in apply to this Government at the moment—and there the way in which the Committee voted to get rid of was no time to debate clause 10. I fancy that my powers clause 10 was that, for the purposes of the regulation of of advocacy would have been sufficient—[Interruption.] the House and any criminal offences that might be I know that the Government are to blame for the fact thought to be relevant, the Bill of Rights would continue that there was not time, but I am making the point that to apply. I think that if the Secretary of State tries to do I hope that my powers of advocacy would have been something else in the other place, he will find, in the sufficient to have persuaded three people to vote the light of that vote, that he will face serious difficulty. other way, had I had the opportunity. Of course, we will consider amendment 6, too. However, Mr. Straw: On the regulation of the House, I accept on a point on which I was engaging the right hon. what the hon. and learned Gentleman has said. However, Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed—[Interruption.] This the whole House needs to think about consistency with is in answer to the hon. and learned Member for clause 15 of the draft Bribery Bill. There is a serious 401 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 402

[Mr. Straw] We on this side of the House have sat through many discussions over the past few days and we are very issue to think about. If such a provision is in the draft grateful for the courtesy and reasonableness with which Bribery Bill and the House’s wish is for there to be a the right hon. Gentleman has treated us and entered bespoke offence, that offence will have to be in this Bill into those discussions. It has been an exemplary way of in some form or other. handling what has been a difficult and controversial Bill. We and others believe that it has been hurried Sir Alan Beith: The Lord Chancellor should keep in through but, given all those pressures, we could not mind the advice of Speaker’s Counsel, which was that have asked for more courtesy and reasonableness in the the law on corruption in this country does not require a manner of its handling. person to prove that a corrupt design was carried out, Colloquially, this amendment is a sunset clause—a but to show only that it was entered into. Such a notion often discussed in this House, but insufficiently demonstration does not require the consideration of and rarely applied to legislation. Variations of the proceedings in the House. amendment were used for emergency powers granted by Mr. Straw: Everyone who has looked at the issue of the House to deal with issues such as terrorism. It is a bribery has accepted that there has to be a provision very sensible instrument for any piece of legislation that similar to what is in clause 15 of the draft Bribery Bill. is unduly controversial and which may have unforeseen That has been accepted across the House, and approved consequences. by it. I hope that that is a useful explanation. This is such a Bill. There can be no doubt that it has been hurriedly cobbled together, and perhaps even more Mr. Jenkin: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for hurriedly rushed through this House. It is very rare to not really advancing a single argument against my have Second Reading, Committee and Report on three amendment 6. I am bound to say that he does not look consecutive days. A Bill of this magnitude and consequence that unhappy about the loss of clause 10. I see no need will have effects that none of us will have been able to press the amendment. I am grateful for his assurance properly to understand, even after the vigorous debate that he will look at the matter. I beg to ask leave to that we have enjoyed. It therefore makes good sense to withdraw the amendment. put a natural expiry date on it, so that in a year or so the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. House is required to come back and take a look at how it has worked. Clause 12 There may be court cases, changes in the behaviour that we can display in the House, and effects on right INTERPRETATION hon. and hon. Members, and possibly even our staff, Amendment made: 9, page 8, line 5, leave out lines 5 that we have not envisaged. It is simply sensible and to 7.—(Mr. Straw.) uncontroversial to allow us to look at the Bill in the cold light of day after it has been in place for a year, and so Clause 13 inevitably after there has been a general election. Nothing could be worse than making bad law and letting it lie on POWER TO MAKE TRANSITIONAL ETC PROVISION the statute book. The surest way of making sure that Amendments made: 10, page 8, line 36, leave out bad legislation comes back before this House is to make paragraph (c). its return automatic by passing a sunset clause. That Amendment 1, page 8, line 45, leave out subsections (5) way, if the Government of the day wish to renew the and (6). Bill, believe that it has been of value and is working, or Amendment 11, page 9, line 24, leave out from ‘section’ believe that it should be amended, the Bill can be to the end of line 25 and insert started again, have its sunset clause triggered, or be brought back for amendment. ‘may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of the House of I urge the House to do something that it always says Commons.’. it would like to do, namely agree to a sunset clause. Let Amendment 2, page 9, line 24, leave out from ‘section’ us do it and just see how it works, so that the Bill, which to the end of line 25 and insert is likely to be agreed to, can come back in a year’s time, ‘shall not be made unless a draft of the instrument has first and we can see whether the House looks upon it as we been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, the House of have done this week. Commons.’.—(Mr. Straw.) Mark Durkan: The hon. Member for Rutland and Melton (Alan Duncan) has made the point that sunset Clause 14 clauses are familiar to the House because they have been used in legislation dealing with emergency provisions SHORT TITLE AND COMMENCEMENT in terrorism situations. Of course, one of the reasons why that legislation is deemed to be temporary is that it Alan Duncan: I beg to move amendment 5, in page 9, is hoped that the conditions and requirements demanding line 39, at end add— the legislation are temporary. Sunset clauses have been ’(4) This Act and any Statutory Instrument made under this used in various bits of Northern Ireland legislation Act shall cease to have effect on the first anniversary of the day during the peace process, as institutions were established, on which the Act is passed.’. different arrangements were put in place, and safeguards We might get a little squeezed in the Third Reading were introduced that it was hoped could later be disposed debate, so may I take this opportunity to extend the of. Sunset clauses were inserted in the hope that the usual courtesies to the Secretary of State and his staff? circumstances and environment would change so the 403 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 404 law would not have to remain permanently on the carefully and understand why we need it. The measure statute book, and there would not have to be a full Act worked perfectly well in the Prevention of Terrorism of repeal. Act 2005, as we were able to make sure that we constantly The situation that we are discussing is very different. revisit legislation we may have concerns about. I do not think any of us believe that the fundamental We have rushed the Bill through. We would not need credibility question, and the issue of having independently the sunset clause if we had not done so. We are now verified and monitored standards in relation to seeing clauses knocked out at the last moment, and parliamentary expenses and financial probity, will pass promises made across the Floor of the House that in or be temporary. We are not talking about just a wee the other place—the unelected Chamber—changes will 2009 affair, courtesy of The Daily Telegraph; the situation have to be made. That is not right. The hon. Member goes deeper than that, and we are kidding ourselves if for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen) made a powerful we think we can deal with that in a sunset clause. We are speech, in which he talked about our taking control of in danger of undermining the authority and standing of the affairs of the House. What we have shown in the IPSA if we say we are setting it up on approval for a past two days is that we are not fit to take control of year. We have already inserted parliamentary control anything, because we would rather have an unelected into an awful lot of what IPSA does. House do our work for us—that work is relevant to us, not to them—which is absurd. The reason for the sunset Mr. Garnier: If the Act is good, we will re-pass it. If it clause is clear: we need to revisit the measure in time to is not, we will not. make sure that any mistakes can be rectified. The problem is absolutely clear. It is simply that our Mark Durkan: That is what the hon. and learned expenses system has been abused and is weak, but we Gentleman says, but when is another matter. Let us be could change it in short order. We did not need a series clear: we have already made sure that the involvement of major changes to our rights, responsibilities and of Parliament has been inserted into all sorts of controls, privileges, cobbled together on the back of that requirement. checks and brakes in relation to the conduct, performance What has happened, on the whim of the Prime Minister, and investigations of the authority. Earlier, I referred to is that we now have this extraordinary piece of legislation, the conundrum of the “There’s a hole in my bucket, which is ill-thought-through and liable to major change dear Liza” syndrome; IPSA is independent, but in another place. Surely the purpose tonight is not to be parliamentary sovereignty is asserted over it. party political. The purpose—[Interruption.] People may laugh about that, but this is not party political. If Mr. Bone rose— the hon. Gentleman had an iota of courage—and he does not need to look at me like that, because I voted Mark Durkan: I want to finish and let other people against my Government on many occasions—instead of speak. The situation is something of a hologram. We sneering he would vote for the amendment, knowing are saying that IPSA is independent, but for other that he voted for those who come after him to take purposes we are saying that there is parliamentary control of this place. Surely this is the point: let us make control. We are also saying that IPSA will have a sure that we have a chance to revisit the measure, and shelf-life of one year, and if we do not like what it does, overturn it if necessary. we can dispose of it completely. How we are meant to recruit people of competence and credibility to the Mr. Straw: I was not sneering at the right hon. authority on that basis I do not know. With a sunset Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan clause, there is the danger that we might be saying, Smith). [HON.MEMBERS: “He meant the hon. Member “This is temporary for a year. It could change next for Wirral, West.”] Okay, but I was chuckling at him, year.” Do Members of this House want to fight a because there was a disconnection between his invective general election on the issue of expenses and how they against the Prime Minister and what he said in his next are managed and controlled? That would be a very breath about this not being a party political issue. I dangerous virus to come into a general election campaign. agree that it should not be seen as a party political issue, That is the danger of a sunset clause. and I remind the House that all three party leaders backed the establishment of a parliamentary standards 6.45 pm authority. [Interruption.] Okay, that was the view of the Leader of the Opposition, and it was also the view Mr. Duncan Smith: I intend to be very brief indeed. of the leader of the Liberal Democrats. I completely disagree with the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), as I cannot understand how Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I would anyone in the House would want to deny it the right to have attempted to intervene on the right hon. Member revisit legislation. That runs contrary to the whole point for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith), of being elected, so I hope that he has time to rethink as I wholeheartedly agree with his point that the House his comments. is constantly abrogating our responsibility adequately to scrutinise legislation and sending it to the other place to do the job for us. That is even more pertinent when it Mark Durkan: Will the right hon. Gentleman give comes to a Bill that relates to the regulation of Parliament. way? I hope that my right hon. Friend will address that issue, because the way the Government guillotine such legislation Mr. Duncan Smith: No, the hon. Gentleman has had is a disgrace. his turn. I support my hon. Friend the Member for Rutland Mr. Straw: First, there is good evidence in a and Melton (Alan Duncan), who moved the amendment, Modernisation Committee report from two years ago—that and I hope that the Lord Chancellor will look at it evidence came from the Clerks of the House—that it is 405 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 406

[Mr. Straw] Mr. Straw: I shall give way in a moment. I accept entirely that the hon. Member for Rutland a myth that this House spends less time on legislation and Melton (Alan Duncan) has set up and run than the other place does. It is simply not true. organisations. I know that that is true. He knows very [Interruption.] Well, that was the implication of what well that it would be impossible to recruit anybody at was said. Secondly, on the insufficiency of time, I personally any level if they were told, “The certainty is not only have always been in favour of the House sitting late, that you’re going to lose your job, but that the firm is but— going to be wound up within seven months of your coming in.” Mr. Gerald Howarth: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? Sir Robert Smith: The purpose of a sunset clause is to recognise the urgency of the legislation. Because it has Mr. Straw: No, I will not. been expanded and rushed through, it needs to be It is the House itself that has been in favour of not properly scrutinised and checked. By rushing it through going late, as Members have been anxious to get away. now, we can get started and address the immediate That is the constant pressure on our Whips. It makes no problem of the expenses and transferring it to an external difference to Ministers. I would have been happy, as organisation, but with the sunset clause in place, the would our Whips, to have debated the Bill at some Government could introduce proper legislation in the length. autumn, with plenty of time in both Houses for it to be properly scrutinised and fully implemented. Several hon. Members rose— Mr. Straw: The better way of handling the burden of Mr. Straw: Others wish to speak, so I must deal with what the hon. Gentleman says is for all parties to what is proposed. I endorse entirely the remarks of my commit themselves to monitoring the legislation carefully—I hon. Friend the Member for Foyle, who has been consistent certainly do, on behalf of my party—and ensuring that in saying in the Chamber what he said in the privacy of adequate time is provided for any amending legislation the cross-party talks, which has not always been the that is needed, which could be in a single Bill— case with others who took part in those talks. If the Opposition are serious about endorsing the principle Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North) (Lab): Will my and backing the establishment of a parliamentary standards right hon. Friend give way? authority, I have to say they know nothing about establishing organisations if they put a question mark against the Mr. Straw: —or as part of a second Bill. future of that authority within just a year of its I give way to my hon. Friend, and there are others establishment. who wish to speak to the amendment. Many legitimate issues have been raised about the future of the staff of the Fees Office who are to be Mr. Winnick: If a sunset clause were agreed to, would transferred to the authority. We must provide them with there not be a cynical feeling among the public, which security. What conceivable security would they have if the Opposition refuse to accept, that we were setting up they faced the clear promise that the Act would cease to the authority because of the scandal and the way the have effect on the first anniversary of the day on which House has been brought into disrepute? Surely no one it was passed? denies that. The public would say, “If the new body is too effective, Parliament will do away with it.” We have Alan Duncan: Very nice try, but it does not wash. As learned the lesson with Elizabeth Filkin, who was a very someone who has run organisations and set them up, I effective Parliamentary Commissioner and was dismissed appreciate that the Secretary of State is quite right to because she did her job too well. say that the staff need some sort of continuity, but we are considering not just the staff but the significance of Several hon. Members rose— the legislation that we are passing. It is not the independent Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. I realise fees office that is in any way controversial—the Secretary there are many people wanting to speak. of State is right; we all support that; it is all the surrounding implications for privilege and so on that Mr. Straw: I accept entirely what my hon. Friend says matter, and they may well need revisiting. Doing so in on that point. Although there are real preoccupations no way threatens the stability of the independent fees for this House about how this House operates, we need office that the Bill sets up, and which should be the only to remember that the reason why we are introducing the thing it sets up. provision for IPSA is that we—ourselves, collectively—failed to self-regulate. The idea that we put the issue back on Mr. Straw: That is not what the amendment says. It the agenda by adopting this, I am afraid, really rather does not provide an opportunity to revisit the Act. It silly amendment is ridiculous. states: “This Act and any Statutory Instrument made under this Act Sir Robert Smith: In the brief time that is left, I want shall cease to have effect on the first anniversary of the day on to associate Liberal Democrat Members with the thanks which the Act is passed.” to the Secretary of State and his staff for the way they— Let us say that we get Royal Assent by 31 July, and the body gets going, with staff being transferred, on 1 January. Mr. Redwood: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Seven months later, it ceases to have effect. That is an Speaker. As the Justice Secretary has said that he likes extraordinary idea. to sit later, and as we need a lot more time to do this Bill justice, can we have a motion now to go on until Several hon. Members rose— 10 o’clock? 407 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 408

Madam Deputy Speaker: I am operating under the whether Bills or regulations should have sunset clauses. existing programme motion, and there is no opportunity On the list of criteria deemed to be particularly appropriate for me to change it. for sunset clauses, there is “regulation responding to a particular crisis or to political and Sir Patrick Cormack: Further to that point of order, public pressure”. Madam Deputy Speaker. Do you realise that there is a I cannot think of anything more apposite to describe seething anger in this House because we have no time at the need for a sunset clause. Indeed, the Secretary of all for Third Reading at all? This is a Bill of monumental State used the word “pressure” only a moment ago. importance, and the only reason why we are debating The third reason, which we all know about because the current clause is that it has been rushed through. Is we have been sitting here for three days, is that the Bill is there something you can do? Can I move a motion, and in a thoroughly shoddy state and needs to be fundamentally will you accept it? reviewed. It will not be properly done in a few weeks in the other place; we will have to do it ourselves in a year’s Madam Deputy Speaker: While we are debating these time—hopefully, when my party is in government. points of order, the clock is ticking away. I have already ruled that there is nothing I can do to change the Sir Patrick Cormack: This is a monstrous Bill, which matter. has been pushed through with indecent haste. If we had taken the proper time, we could have had a decent Bill Sir Robert Smith: Despite the controversy and that dealt with expenses but did not interfere with mishandling, I want to place those thanks on the record, Parliament’s rights and privileges. This is a black day because there has been quite a lot of movement and for Parliament, and I urge the House to support the communication, and it has helped the Bill to become a sunset clause so that at least we can try to put things bit better—but not perfect. It is definitely still in an right in a year’s time. unworkable form. Question put: That the amendment be made. The House divided: Ayes 225, Noes 284. Sir Alan Beith: While my hon. Friend is offering Division No. 179] [7 pm thanks, I wonder whether he will allow me to encourage him to thank the two Committees that have contributed AYES to these debates, and the Members and staff who have made that possible. Afriyie, Adam Davey, Mr. Edward Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Davies, Mr. Dai Alexander, Danny Davies, David T.C. Sir Robert Smith: Had my right hon. Friend not Amess, Mr. David (Monmouth) intervened on me, those two items would have been next Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Davis, rh David on my list. Those thanks stand on the record; I shall not Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan bother repeating them. However, those Committees Atkinson, Mr. Peter Dorries, Nadine have made a huge difference to informing the House Baker, Norman Duddridge, James and to the Bill’s progress. Baldry, Tony Duncan, Alan Barker, Gregory Duncan Smith, rh Mr. As I said to the Secretary of State, there is a consensus Barrett, John Iain among the vast majority of those in the House that Beith, rh Sir Alan Dunne, Mr. Philip putting out to an external authority the handling of Benyon, Mr. Richard Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Members’expenses, finances and salaries is a very necessary Beresford, Sir Paul Evans, Mr. Nigel way to restore public confidence in this country’s body Binley, Mr. Brian Evennett, Mr. David politic. It was a crucial part of the Bill and a crucial Blunt, Mr. Crispin Fallon, Mr. Michael reason for its urgency. However, the Bill expanded like Bone, Mr. Peter Farron, Tim Topsy and got into an awful muddle as the Government Brady, Mr. Graham Featherstone, Lynne bolted on extra aspects that have had to be removed. Brazier, Mr. Julian Field, rh Mr. Frank That has made it much more unworkable, and means Breed, Mr. Colin Foster, Mr. Don that it needs to be revisited and properly scrutinised. Brokenshire, James Fox, Dr. Liam Brooke, Annette Fraser, Christopher The Bill will go to the other place, which we hope will Browne, Mr. Jeremy Garnier, Mr. Edward do a good job in trying to improve it, but putting the Bruce, rh Malcolm Gauke, Mr. David onus on the Government by introducing a sunset clause Burns, Mr. Simon George, Andrew so that they knew the Bill had to be revisited would Burrowes, Mr. David Gibb, Mr. Nick concentrate their mind. In the autumn we would be able Burt, Alistair Gidley, Sandra to come forward again with the full scrutiny of effective Burt, Lorely Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl legislation, fully worked out, so that we had a permanent Butterfill, Sir John Goldsworthy, Julia solution that dealt with all the concerns that have been Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Goodman, Mr. Paul raised in this debate. I urge the Government, even at this Carswell, Mr. Douglas Goodwill, Mr. Robert late stage, to accept a sunset clause. Cash, Mr. William Gove, Michael Chope, Mr. Christopher Gray, Mr. James Clark, Greg Grayling, Chris Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): There are three Clifton-Brown, Mr. Green, Damian good reasons why we need a sunset clause. First, as the Geoffrey Greening, Justine Secretary of State said, this is emergency legislation, Cormack, Sir Patrick Grieve, Mr. Dominic and emergency legislation should generally carry a review Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Gummer, rh Mr. John or a sunset clause. Secondly, the Government have Crabb, Mr. Stephen Hague, rh Mr. William themselves published guidelines with which to judge Curry, rh Mr. David Hammond, Stephen 409 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 410

Hancock, Mr. Mike Neill, Robert Wilson, Mr. Rob Yeo, Mr. Tim Hands, Mr. Greg O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Winterton, Ann Young, rh Sir George Harper, Mr. Mark Oaten, Mr. Mark Winterton, Sir Nicholas Tellers for the Ayes: Harris, Dr. Evan Öpik, Lembit Wishart, Pete Richard Younger-Ross and Harvey, Nick Osborne, Mr. George Wright, Jeremy Bill Wiggin Hayes, Mr. John Ottaway, Richard Heathcoat-Amory, rh Paterson, Mr. Owen Mr. David Penning, Mike NOES Hemming, John Penrose, John Abbott, Ms Diane Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hendry, Charles Price, Adam Ainger, Nick Cummings, John Hoban, Mr. Mark Prisk, Mr. Mark Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Pritchard, Mark Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cunningham, Tony Hollobone, Mr. Philip Pugh, Dr. John Allen, Mr. Graham David, Mr. Wayne Holloway, Mr. Adam Randall, Mr. John Anderson, Mr. David Davidson, Mr. Ian Holmes, Paul Redwood, rh Mr. Armstrong, rh Hilary Davies, Mr. Quentin Horam, Mr. John John Atkins, Charlotte Dean, Mrs. Janet Horwood, Martin Reid, Mr. Alan Austin, Mr. Ian Denham, rh Mr. John Hosie, Stewart Rennie, Willie Austin, John Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Howard, rh Mr. Michael Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bailey, Mr. Adrian Dismore, Mr. Andrew Howarth, David Robathan, Mr. Andrew Baird, Vera Dobbin, Jim Howarth, Mr. Gerald Robertson, Angus Balls, rh Ed Donohoe, Mr. Brian Howell, John Robertson, Hugh Banks, Gordon H. Hughes, Simon Robertson, Mr. Laurence Barlow, Ms Celia Doran, Mr. Frank Huhne, Chris Rogerson, Dan Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dowd, Jim Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Rosindell, Andrew Battle, rh John Drew, Mr. David Hunter, Mark Ruffley, Mr. David Bayley, Hugh Durkan, Mark Jack, rh Mr. Michael Russell, Bob Beckett, rh Margaret Eagle, Angela Jackson, Mr. Stewart Sanders, Mr. Adrian Begg, Miss Anne Eagle, Maria Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Scott, Mr. Lee Bell, Sir Stuart Efford, Clive Jones, Mr. David Selous, Andrew Benton, Mr. Joe Ellman, Mrs. Louise Kawczynski, Daniel Shapps, Grant Berry, Roger Engel, Natascha Keetch, Mr. Paul Shepherd, Mr. Richard Betts, Mr. Clive Ennis, Jeff Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Simmonds, Mark Blackman, Liz Etherington, Bill Key, Robert Smith, Sir Robert Blears, rh Hazel Fisher, Mark Kirkbride, Miss Julie Soames, Mr. Nicholas Blizzard, Mr. Bob Fitzpatrick, , rh Mr. Greg Spicer, Sir Michael Blunkett, rh Mr. David Flello, Mr. Robert Kramer, Susan Spring, Mr. Richard Borrow, Mr. David S. Flint, rh Caroline Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Stanley, rh Sir John Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Flynn, Paul Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Steen, Mr. Anthony Brennan, Kevin Follett, Barbara Lancaster, Mr. Mark Streeter, Mr. Gary Brown, Lyn Foster, Mr. Michael Lansley, Mr. Andrew Stuart, Mr. Graham Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas (Worcester) Laws, Mr. David Stunell, Andrew Brown, Mr. Russell Foster, Michael Jabez Leech, Mr. John Swinson, Jo Browne, rh Des (Hastings and Rye) Leigh, Mr. Edward Swire, Mr. Hugo Bryant, Chris Francis, Dr. Hywel Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Syms, Mr. Robert Buck, Ms Karen Gapes, Mike Lewis, Dr. Julian Tapsell, Sir Peter Burden, Richard Gardiner, Barry Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Taylor, Mr. Ian Burgon, Colin George, rh Mr. Bruce Lidington, Mr. David Taylor, Dr. Richard Burnham, rh Andy Gerrard, Mr. Neil Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Teather, Sarah Butler, Ms Dawn Gilroy, Linda Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Thurso, John Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Godsiff, Mr. Roger Loughton, Tim Timpson, Mr. Edward Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Goggins, rh Paul Luff, Peter Turner, Mr. Andrew Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Goodman, Helen Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Cairns, David Griffith, Nia MacNeil, Mr. Angus Vaizey, Mr. Edward Campbell, Mr. Alan Griffiths, Nigel Main, Anne Vara, Mr. Shailesh Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Grogan, Mr. John Malins, Mr. Humfrey Viggers, Sir Peter Caton, Mr. Martin Gwynne, Andrew Maples, Mr. John Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hain, rh Mr. Peter Mason, John Walker, Mr. Charles Chapman, Ben Hall, Mr. Mike Mates, rh Mr. Michael Wallace, Mr. Ben Clapham, Mr. Michael Hall, Patrick Maude, rh Mr. Francis Walter, Mr. Robert Clark, Paul Hamilton, Mr. David McIntosh, Miss Anne Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McLoughlin, rh Mr. Waterson, Mr. Nigel Clelland, Mr. David Hanson, rh Mr. David Patrick Watkinson, Angela Clwyd, rh Ann Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mercer, Patrick Webb, Steve Coaker, Mr. Vernon Harris, Mr. Tom Miller, Mrs. Maria Weir, Mr. Mike Coffey, Ann Havard, Mr. Dai Milton, Anne Willetts, Mr. David Cohen, Harry Healey, rh John Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Williams, Hywel Connarty, Michael Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Moore, Mr. Michael Williams, Mark Cooper, Rosie Hesford, Stephen Moss, Mr. Malcolm Williams, Mr. Roger Corbyn, Jeremy Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Mulholland, Greg Williams, Stephen Crausby, Mr. David Heyes, David Mundell, David Willott, Jenny Creagh, Mary Hill, rh Keith Murrison, Dr. Andrew Wilshire, Mr. David Cruddas, Jon Hood, Mr. Jim 411 Parliamentary Standards Bill1 JULY 2009 Parliamentary Standards Bill 412

Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey Mudie, Mr. George Vis, Dr. Rudi Wilson, Phil Hopkins, Kelvin Munn, Meg Walley, Joan Winnick, Mr. David Howells, rh Dr. Kim Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Waltho, Lynda Wood, Mike Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Ward, Claire Woolas, Mr. Phil Hughes, rh Beverley Naysmith, Dr. Doug Watson, Mr. Tom Wright, Mr. Anthony Humble, Mrs. Joan Norris, Dan Watts, Mr. Dave Wright, David Iddon, Dr. Brian O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Whitehead, Dr. Alan Wright, Mr. Iain Illsley, Mr. Eric O’Hara, Mr. Edward Wicks, rh Malcolm Wright, Dr. Tony Irranca-Davies, Huw Olner, Mr. Bill Williams, rh Mr. Alan Tellers for the Noes: Jackson, Glenda Osborne, Sandra Williams, Mrs. Betty Mrs. Sharon Hodgson and James, Mrs. Siân Owen, Albert Wills, rh Mr. Michael Mr. John Heppell C. Palmer, Dr. Nick Jenkins, Mr. Brian Pearson, Ian Johnson, rh Alan Plaskitt, Mr. James Question accordingly negatived. Jones, Helen Pope, Mr. Greg It being after Seven o’clock, The Deputy Speaker then Jones, Mr. Martyn Pound, Stephen put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of Joyce, Mr. Eric Prentice, Bridget the business to be concluded at that time (Programme Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Prentice, Mr. Gordon Order, 29 June, and Standing Order No. 83E). Keeble, Ms Sally Prescott, rh Mr. John Keeley, Barbara Primarolo, rh Dawn Keen, Alan Prosser, Gwyn Schedule 1 Keen, Ann Raynsford, rh Mr. Kemp, Mr. Fraser Nick Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Reed, Mr. Andy INDEPENDENT PARLIAMENTARY STANDARDS Kidney, Mr. David Reed, Mr. Jamie AUTHORITY Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Reid, rh John Amendments made: 12, page 10, line 12, leave out Knight, rh Jim Riordan, Mrs. Linda ‘holds or has held’ and insert ‘has held (but no longer Kumar, Dr. Ashok Robertson, John holds)’. Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Lammy, rh Mr. David Rooney, Mr. Terry Amendment 13, page 16, line 3, after ‘and’ insert ‘the Laxton, Mr. Bob Roy, Mr. Frank Speaker must’.—(Barbara Keeley.) Lazarowicz, Mark Ruane, Chris Lepper, David Russell, Christine Levitt, Tom Salter, Martin Schedule 2 Lewis, Mr. Ivan Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Linton, Martin Seabeck, Alison COMMISSIONER FOR PARLIAMENTARY INVESTIGATIONS Love, Mr. Andrew Sharma, Mr. Virendra Amendments made: 14, page 19, line 3, after ‘and’ Lucas, Ian Shaw, Jonathan insert ‘the Speaker must’. Mactaggart, Fiona Sheerman, Mr. Barry Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Sheridan, Jim Amendment 15, page 19, line 5, leave out ‘On laying’ Malik, Mr. Shahid Simon, Mr. Siôn and insert ‘When the Speaker lays’.—(Barbara Keeley.) Mallaber, Judy Simpson, Alan Third reading Mann, John Singh, Mr. Marsha Motion made, and Question put, That the Bill be now Marris, Rob Skinner, Mr. Dennis read the Third time. Marsden, Mr. Gordon Slaughter, Mr. Andy Martlew, Mr. Eric Smith, rh Mr. Andrew A Division was called, but no Members being appointed McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, Ms Angela C. Tellers for the Noes, the Deputy Speaker declared that McCabe, Steve (Sheffield, Hillsborough) the Ayes had it. McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Question accordingly agreed to. McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Geraldine McCrea, Dr. William Smith, rh Jacqui Bill read the Third time and passed. McDonagh, Siobhain Snelgrove, Anne McDonnell, John Southworth, Helen McFadden, rh Mr. Spellar, rh Mr. John SAVING GATEWAY ACCOUNTS BILL Pat Spink, Bob (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2) McFall, rh John Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing McGovern, Mr. Jim Stoate, Dr. Howard Order 83A(7)), McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Strang, rh Dr. Gavin That the following provisions shall apply to the Saving Gateway McIsaac, Shona Straw, rh Mr. Jack Accounts Bill for the purpose of supplementing the Order of McKechin, Ann Stuart, Ms Gisela 13 January 2009 (Saving Gateway Accounts Bill (Programme))— McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Tami, Mark Consideration of Lords Amendments Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Taylor, David Meale, Mr. Alan Thomas, Mr. Gareth 1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall Merron, Gillian Thornberry, Emily (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement at this day’s sitting. Michael, rh Alun Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Miliband, rh Edward Todd, Mr. Mark Subsequent stages Miller, Andrew Touhig, rh Mr. Don 2. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered Moffatt, Laura Trickett, Jon forthwith without any further question being put. Mole, Chris Turner, Dr. Desmond 3. The proceedings on any further message from the Lords Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Turner, Mr. Neil shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion Morden, Jessica Twigg, Derek one hour after their commencement.—(Mr. Watts.) Morgan, Julie Ussher, Kitty Question agreed to. 413 1 JULY 2009 Saving Gateway Accounts Bill 414

Saving Gateway Accounts Bill Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As I was saying, the Government intended to table amendments in the other place, and Consideration of Lords amendments my noble Friend Lord Myners did that at the first opportunity. I should like again to place on record our Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): I must draw thanks to all those with caring responsibilities. We will the House’s attention to the fact that privilege is involved continue to do all we can to help and support them, and in Lords amendments 1 and 2. If the House agrees to I am glad that we have been able to find a mechanism to these amendments, I shall ensure that the appropriate do that while staying within our original policy objectives. entry is made in the Journal. As hon. Members know, the saving gateway is targeted at working age people on lower incomes. As the then Clause 3 Economic Secretary explained, carer’s allowance can be claimed by anyone of 16 or older, as long as they meet TRANSFERS the various requirements, and there is no upper age limit. Indeed, 375,000 of the 880,000 claimants of pension 7.16 pm age. Making everyone who is entitled to carer’s allowance eligible for the saving gateway would extend eligibility The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah to a large number of people from outside our target McCarthy-Fry): I beg to move, That this House agrees group. with Lords amendment 1. We have therefore looked for a more targeted option. The amendments would make those receiving carer’s Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient allowance eligible for the saving gateway, rather than to discuss Lords amendment 2. everyone who is entitled to receive it. Even without the amendments, around 225,000 claimants of carer’s allowance Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Lords amendments 1 and 2 would be eligible for the saving gateway through qualifying would make all recipients of carer’s allowance eligible benefits. The amendments will add a further 300,000 for the saving gateway. That issue was discussed in carers to that number, taking the total to more than detail during the Bill’s previous stages in this place, and 500,000. I commend the amendments to the House. I am particularly grateful to my hon. Friends the Members for South Thanet (Dr. Ladyman) and for Leeds, East Mr. Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): As the Minister (Mr. Mudie) and the hon. Member for Taunton said, the issue has been discussed at length in the (Mr. Browne) for raising it. In response, the then Economic Commons. The Government’s late conversion to the Secretary said that the Government were minded to cause may come as a surprise to those who took part in table amendments on the matter in the other place— the debates in Committee, as the then Minister did not [Interruption.] greet the probing amendments that were moved with any great enthusiasm. Indeed, she used some of the Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Perhaps hon. Members statistics that the Minister has now used as a reason not who are not taking part in the debate will leave the to extend the scheme to carers. That said, we should not Chamber quietly and let us get on with our business. be too churlish when the Government listen to the views of hon. Members in all parts of the House, so we Mr. Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford welcome the measure. Green) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The only omission from the Minister’s remarks was I understand that the statement is now due to follow the any indication of the cost of extending eligibility to business that we are considering. I wonder whether the people in receipt of carer’s allowance. It would be Speaker has taken it into consideration that, during helpful for the House to know the additional financial earlier points of order about the Government’s not commitment that has been entered into as a consequence coming to the House to discuss the nationalisation of a of the Government’s accepting the Lords amendment. particular rail franchise and our having to wait for the statement to be made in the other place first, the Leader Mr. Jeremy Browne (Taunton) (LD): I rise briefly to of the House was signalling to him, for all to see, that thank the Minister for accepting the amendment, which the statement would not be made at 7 o’clock, as he was tabled in my name in Committee. We support the proposed, but at 5 o’clock. We had no statement at 5 or overall principle of the Bill, which is to give people of at 7 and we still await it. working age on very low incomes greater opportunities Could you also tell me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether, and incentives to save, and the benefits that will flow now that the Speaker has had time to read the transcripts from that. Our feeling was that carers as a group were from the “Today” programme, which I know he has in worthy of consideration. I am therefore grateful to the his possession, he or anyone in the Chair plans to make Minister for slightly belatedly accepting the merits of a clear criticism of the Government for their failure to that argument, which, as the hon. Member for Fareham come here before announcing a programme of (Mr. Hoban) said, it would be churlish not to recognise nationalisation on the radio? as a positive development. Although I am minded to support the amendments, Mr. Deputy Speaker: Perhaps I could deal with those because their origin is those that I and others put matters in reverse order. On the second point, it is not forward in Committee, I, too, would be curious to know for me to try to explain to the right hon. Gentleman their estimated financial costs. However, unless the what the Speaker has in mind. The statement will made amendments are prohibitive—I assume that they are later this evening, and the Chair has played no part in not, because the Minister does not appear to regard that decision—the Government are producing the them as such—we would be enthusiastic in supporting statement. them. 415 Saving Gateway Accounts Bill1 JULY 2009 Saving Gateway Accounts Bill 416

Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): When we rounded to the nearest £10 million. Those therefore last considered the Bill, I asked the Minister to tell us remain at £130 million in 2012-13, £110 million in something about what kind of interest rate would be 2013-14, £100 million in 2014-15 and £60 million in made available and how much good news there would steady state. be for savers under the scheme. Absolutely no information I hope that we can all agree that we have found a was forthcoming, so I hope that she might be able to mechanism to bring carers of working age into the supply it now that we are extending the scheme, because scheme, and I also hope that all will welcome that. given the people to whom we are extending it, we want Lords amendment 1 agreed to, with Commons privileges to ensure that it would be valuable to them and worth waived. their attention. Lords amendment 2 agreed to, with Commons privileges It is absolutely typical that such a proposal should waived. come forward with no costing, no regulatory impact assessment and no comment from the Minister about why the scheme might take off and why it might help Clause 4 the people whom we would all like to help. I am afraid that, yet again, we are seeing an appallingly bad standard REQUIREMENTS RELATING TO ACCOUNTS of work. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 3. Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): Can my right hon. Friend imagine any company on earth that Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient would make a proposition without properly costing it to consider Lords amendments 4 to 8. and without the shareholders and the board understanding what they were letting themselves in for? Why are the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The amendments achieve three Government totally unable to understand the basic separate things, which I shall set out in turn. First, rules of economics? Lords amendments 3, 4 and 5 relate to the maturity period of the saving gateway accounts—in other words, Mr. Redwood: I quite agree with my right hon. Friend. how long each account will last. As hon. Members will We would like the scheme to work, because we agree know, we intend to set the maturity period at two years with the broad aim and we would like to assist people or 24 months. These amendments would prevent regulations who could qualify under it, but throughout the process from setting a maturity period of less than 12 months. Ministers have been completely wooden. They will not It was suggested in the other place that a maturity tell us who will introduce the scheme, how much the fees period of less than a year would not encourage saving, and costs will be, what the interest rate would be if it as it would not be long enough for saving gateway were launched today or how much the amendment will account holders to develop a strong savings habit. cost, because they clearly do not know whether the Mr. Hoban: Given that the regulations are intended scheme will be popular and take off. Indeed, how can to have a maturity period of two years, why are the they know that if they have done none of the homework Government tabling amendments in the Lords to restrict on whether the scheme makes sense for the people that maturity period to 12 months? Why not have the concerned? primary and secondary legislation instead? Indeed, if the Government are not careful, they will be guilty of mis-selling, because one cannot come to a Sarah McCarthy-Fry: We cannot foresee a period in conclusion about whether the proposed scheme is a which a maturity period of less than 12 months would suitable savings scheme for people on low incomes and be desirable, which is why we are setting the bar at benefits unless one knows the answers to some of the 12 months. That does not prevent the period from being questions that I and others have been putting. Therefore, longer. As I said, we envisage setting the maturity at this late stage, can the Treasury and the Minister period at two years, but the regulations put the minimum redeem themselves by giving the House some information bar at 12 months because we believe a lesser period is so that we can willingly approve the scheme and know not sufficient to encourage the saving habit. that it might do some good? Lords amendment 6 is intended to correct a minor error in drafting. The Bill provides that the Northern Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I am grateful for the comments Ireland social security commissioner will hear certain of the Opposition Front-Bench spokesmen, who said saving gateway appeals on non-tax matters in Northern that they thought that the Bill was a good measure. On Ireland. Clause 25(7)(b) originally provided that a tribunal my reading of Hansard, the idea was that we would find of three or more commissioners would fall within the a mechanism to bring carers of working age into the Bill’s definition of a Northern Ireland social security scheme—and we believe that we have done so. commissioner. That would be unnecessarily restrictive I was asked how much the amendments will cost. We in comparison with the position for appeals on comparable estimate that they will make an additional 305,000 matters such as the child trust fund, where only two people eligible for the saving gateway, which will cost such commissioners are sufficient. The amendment would about £4 million in 2012-13, falling to about £1 million mean that only two were required, which would make in a steady state. That will not affect our overall estimates the provision consistent with the relevant Northern of the numbers eligible for the scheme or its costs. We Ireland social security legislation. have always said that we expect about 8 million people Finally, Lords amendment 8 would increase to be eligible for the saving gateway; previously, our parliamentary scrutiny of the use of the regulation-making exact estimate was £7.7 million, which the amendments powers provided by the Bill. As hon. Members may will increase to £8 million. The change will not impact know, most of the delegated powers will be subject to on the cost estimates of the scheme, which have been the affirmative procedure on their first use, and the 417 Saving Gateway Accounts Bill1 JULY 2009 Saving Gateway Accounts Bill 418

[Sarah McCarthy-Fry] than the negative procedure in three areas because of the impact on costs. We felt that changes relating to negative procedure on subsequent uses. As the Bill entitlement and maturity payments needed proper stands, there are four exceptions in which every use of parliamentary scrutiny rather than being rushed through the power will be subject to the affirmative procedure: without proper debate in the House. I feel that it is the three delegated powers relating to eligibility for the important to protect taxpayers in that regard. saving gateway, and the power for regulations to set the In the House of Lords, my noble Friend Lady Noakes match rate. As those delegated powers relate to central tabled amendments to extend the affirmative resolution features of the gateway, it is right for any changes to be to powers to set the monthly deposit limit, to set the subject to full parliamentary scrutiny. maturity period, and to set the number of accounts that people could hold. They affect the cost of the scheme, 7.30 pm and we are pleased that the Government eventually The hon. Members for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) and for succumbed to pressure in the other place to reflect those Taunton (Mr. Browne), along with some in another changes. The Government are very keen to talk about place, have suggested that parliamentary scrutiny of the democratic renewal and the role of the House of Commons, delegated powers in the Bill should be strengthened yet it appears that the only amendments they are prepared further, and the Bill responds to that. It will make three to accept are those made in the other place. If the more regulation-making powers subject to the affirmative Government are genuine in wanting to embrace the order on each use rather than just on the first use: the views and reflect the opinions of this House, they powers to set the monthly deposit limit, the maturity should accept more amendments tabled in this place period, and the number of accounts that people can when they are tabled, rather than waiting for pressure hold either at the same time or during their lifetimes. As from the other place to get them to change their mind. changes in those areas could significantly affect the cost of the saving gateway, we agree that the affirmative Mr. Jeremy Browne: At the risk of sounding somewhat procedure is appropriate. graceless, I, too, wish the Government had gone a little I hope that Members will welcome the increased bit further and had done this with a little less reluctance, parliamentary scrutiny of the powers in the Bill, and, but having said that, I am pleased that the amendments indeed, all the amendments. are in place and that this degree of progress has been made. Mr. Hoban: I still do not quite understand why the Government have decided to specify in the Bill that the The Bill itself says very little. Anybody who picks up maturity period should be no less than 12 months, given a copy from the Vote Office will not necessarily be very that their intention from the outset has been for it to be well informed about the nature of the scheme. There are two years and the Minister has confirmed that the 29 delegated powers in a Bill that has only 32 clauses. I regulation will provide for it to be two years. It will just will not give an exhaustive list as I did that in Committee, add to the confusion if one period is specified in primary but the Government are, for example, able to do the legislation and a different period is specified in secondary following: change the rules governing the issuance of a legislation. notice of eligibility; change the rules governing the As was pointed out in Committee, one reason why approved institutional criteria used by HMRC; limit the the maturity period is important is that it establishes a size of monthly deposits; decide the level of the maturity time during which someone with a saving gateway account payment; and impose requirements relating to statements. will develop a saving culture. It was argued then that a There is a whole list of criteria that the House is being reasonable period of maturity would give people time asked to nod through and to allow the Government to to develop the practice of putting money aside regularly. make those changes as they see fit at a later date. The During the public evidence sessions that preceded detailed fact is that those changes are substantial to the scheme. scrutiny of the Bill, Teresa Perchard of Citizens Advice We do not have the ability we might wish to influence supported a two-year period, and the Economic Secretary the details, as they are left out of the Bill. agreed when he was leading on the issue. We tabled an Having said that, some progress is clearly better than amendment to that effect in Committee, but, while no progress. Lords amendment 8 asserts the use of the accepting the strength of our argument, the then Minister affirmative procedure to decide the maturity period, the was not very keen for any particular period to be definition of an eligible person, and the requirements specified in the Bill. for opening an account. That is definitely going in the It is perplexing that the Government have decided to right direction, because without proper discussion of specify a period, and that it is not the period that they such details in the House we would be asked to approve want to be specified in secondary legislation. They seem a shell of a proposal with very little meat inside it. willing to move some way in recognising the Opposition’s It is, however, a shame that we are not being asked to view, but not willing enough to go further, have the vote for a Bill which has specific measures such as the courage of their convictions and specify in the Bill what 50p rate, the two-year maturity period and the £25 a they believe to be the right period in the context of month deposit limit. That is not treating the House in secondary legislation. I hope that, when she winds up the way that it should be treated. I am enthusiastic this relatively short debate, the Minister will explain about the amendments as they are preferable to what why she considers it appropriate for two different periods existed before, but the Government could have gone to be specified. further still. As for Lords amendment 8, we are pleased that the Government have accepted the proposals that we made Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I welcome the fact that the in Committee. We wanted further use of the regulation- Front-Bench spokesmen of both main Opposition parties making power to be subject to the affirmative rather appear to welcome the amendments, and I hope they 419 Saving Gateway Accounts Bill1 JULY 2009 Saving Gateway Accounts Bill 420 will support them. I think that the only point I need to on lower incomes in this country and this scheme is come back to is the reason why the maturity period in aimed at improving that culture. It is, in many respects, the Bill is not less than 12 months and the rest is in a relatively generous scheme—it has a 50p matching regulations. As I have said, we believe that less than rate—and we want to ensure that the taxpayers’ money 12 months would not represent saving, and that is why that is being used to support the scheme is being spent we are stating that minimum in the Bill. We want to wisely and effectively, and that taxpayers get a return leave flexibility for regulations to set the minimum from this scheme through the encouragement of a high period. Leaving that in secondary legislation provides level of savings among people on low incomes. the flexibility to alter that feature of the accounts if, for The Bill was deficient when it first came before us example, the experience of operating the national scheme because it did not contain a statutory requirement to suggested a different account length would better achieve conduct a review, and attempts were made both in this the aims of the saving gateway. That is why we want to place and in the other place to amend that. To an put that in regulations. Under Lords amendment 8, the extent, we welcome this amendment, but it contains maturity period would be subject to the affirmative gaps, two of which, in particular, were demonstrated in procedure and to parliamentary scrutiny in this House. the amendment tabled in the other place by my noble Lords amendment 3 agreed to. Friend Baroness Noakes—I shall return to those in a Lords amendments 4, 5 and 6 agreed to. moment. I am concerned that the report will be laid before this House only within seven years of Before Clause 26 “the coming into force of section 6.” During the intervening period a significant amount of REVIEW AND REPORT TO PARLIAMENT taxpayers’ money will be spent supporting this scheme. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I beg to move, That this House I hope that the Government see the seven-year period agrees with Lords amendment 7. not as a time scale within which the report will be brought before this House; I hope that they do not wait At various stages during the passage of the Bill, hon. until the seventh anniversary and then report. The Members and noble Lords made a case for a review of sooner we know how effective the scheme is, the better it the saving gateway to be carried out in due course after will be. We will then be able to consider whether it is a the launch of the accounts. I know that the hon. Member good use of taxpayers’ money or whether changes need for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) and the hon. Member for to be made to the matching payment, the maturity Taunton (Mr. Browne) spoke on this matter on Report. period or the range of eligibility to make it more In response, Ministers in both Houses made clear the effective in encouraging the savings culture. importance that they attach to a future review as a way The first of the two areas omitted from the Government’s of assessing the success of the saving gateway against amendment but addressed in that of my noble Friend the objectives that we have set for it. This amendment relates to take-up. The Government amendment talks would impose a statutory requirement on Her Majesty’s about the effect of saving gateway accounts on attitudes Revenue and Customs to commission an independent to saving, the behavioural impact of the accounts, the review of the effect of the saving gateway. It would also involvement of people who use them with the institutions set the time scale for the review and its publication, and offering the financial services and the barriers to opening specify that certain matters will be considered within it. the accounts, but it does not mention take-up, whether The results and conclusions of the review would be set the take-up rate is adequate and whether that rate out in a report that to be laid before Parliament. should be improved. I understand that an annual report As hon. Members may be aware, independent evaluations will be made on the number of people who open these of two saving gateway pilots were carried out by the accounts, in line with similar statistics produced on the Personal Finance Research Centre at Bristol university, child trust fund, but it would be helpful to have an the Institute for Fiscal Studies and Ipsos MORI, and independent review of the level of take-up and of we envisage following a similar model for this review. It whether that rate is sufficient to justify the existence of will consider the effect of the scheme against the objectives the saving gateway account. The Minister will point out that we have set for it: to kick-start a saving habit that subsection (e) of the new clause includes the among working age people on lower incomes; and to opportunity to add other areas to the review and I hope promote engagement with mainstream financial services. that she will confirm that she will ensure—should she Therefore, the matters addressed in subsections 1(a) to be in a position to do so in seven years’ time—that the (d) of the proposed new clause directly relate to the take-up rate would be included. development of a saving habit among account holders, account holders’ engagement with mainstream financial The second area omitted is financial education. A services and barriers to the opening of saving gateway series of pilots took place as part of the long evaluation accounts. In addition, subsection 1(e) would allow for of this idea, and they suggested that account opening other relevant matters to be considered as part of the should happen in conjunction with financial education. review. I commend this amendment to the House. We are talking about a group of people who do not necessarily have bank accounts, and they may be sceptical Mr. Hoban: As the Minister has said, we have been about, or uncomfortable with, dealing with financial calling for a review of the scheme’s effectiveness both in institutions. Support may be needed for people opening this place and in the other place. Let us be clear why these accounts. such a review is important. We have supported this If we are to encourage a savings culture, we need to measure because we believe it is vital to encourage provide incentives to save and accounts that people are savings and to develop a savings culture among people happy to save in, and we must provide financial education 421 Saving Gateway Accounts Bill1 JULY 2009 Saving Gateway Accounts Bill 422

[Mr. Hoban] as being a reasonable scale. Four years would be an appropriate amount of time to make a reasonable in parallel with that, to persuade people of the long-term assessment, would fit into a natural political cycle and benefits of saving. I am disappointed that the Government would also be sufficient to gauge the success or otherwise have not taken the opportunity to include explicit reference of the scheme. to monitoring the financial education that is provided As I have made the case previously for such a measure, alongside the opening of the accounts. Perhaps the like the hon. Member for Fareham we will not oppose Minister can say whether financial education will be the measure before us although it is not precisely that covered in the independent review and should be taken which we would have introduced had it been left in our up under subsection (e). hands. On that basis, and with those caveats, we are We have called for independent reviews of the system, happy to support Lords amendment 7. so we will not oppose the amendment, but the Government could have thought more broadly about what the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I welcome the support from independent review will cover and have been more both hon. Gentlemen for the amendment. Let me pick timely about when it will be laid before Parliament. up on a couple of the points that were made. Both hon. Gentlemen made a point about the seven years. We Mr. Jeremy Browne: My party, for the reasons that must take into account the fact that any review of the have just been outlined by the hon. Member for Fareham effect of the saving gateways accounts will have to (Mr. Hoban), supports this legislation, partly because it consider account holders’ attitudes and behaviour during encourages self-reliance in people on very low incomes. the two years that the account will last and for a It will encourage them to save in a way that gives them a reasonable period afterwards. It would also be desirable greater stake in society and to interact with financial for the research sample of participants to include both constitutions in a way that, in many cases, they do not those people who opened their saving gateway account feel able to do. Both of those objectives are laudable, when the scheme was launched and those who opened and that is why we support the legislation. theirs later, once the scheme was up and running. Even though there have been pilot studies, we have We also have to bear in mind that within that seven had to made educated guesses about how the system year period, the researchers must have appropriate time will work in practice. We cannot be certain, for example, to prepare their conclusions and findings and HMRC that the 50p matching rate will not be excessive and, and HM Treasury must have time to consider those therefore, place too great a burden on the taxpayer in findings carefully and to prepare a report. We must achieving the scheme’s objective. On the other hand, it remember that that is the latest time at which a report might not be a sufficient inducement for people who can be published, not the earliest. If there are benefits will be encouraged to take it up. We do not know to conducting and publishing the review earlier, the new whether the two-year period will be successful. We do clause provides sufficient flexibility for that to happen. not know whether the maximum contribution is set at The hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) asked an appropriate level—too high or too low. We cannot be about take-up. My noble Friend Lord Myners announced certain about the cost or the penetration of the scheme—the in the other place that HMRC would be publishing data two are linked. We may wish to increase the inducements, on the saving gateway at least annually. That will include because the people whom the scheme is meant to attract data on the number of notices of eligibility issued by are not sufficiently attracted on the existing terms. Or it HMRC and the number of accounts opened, so take-up may be that the costs prove to be prohibitive and the rates will be clear. The independent review can also Government wish to scale back the scheme in the future. consider that in the context of barriers to the opening It is important that the Minister makes a commitment of accounts under subsection (1)(d) of the new clause. that when this review comes to this House, it will be Finally, on financial education, the advice, information debated, not just noted. More importantly, the seven-year and education available to people who are seeking to period is excessive. We will have at least two general open an account or whose account is nearing maturity elections between now and then. I do not mean to be can also be considered by the review when it considers unkind, but the Minister’s predecessor was in office for barriers to the opening of accounts and the effects of nine days, so while it is possible that she will be in post the scheme on participants’ saving behaviour and their in seven years’ time, it is not unreasonable to expect involvement with financial institutions. If a more detailed some ministerial changes in the Treasury in that time. focus on advice and information on the saving gateway More importantly, we will have had more than enough is considered appropriate, the new clause has the flexibility time to review the issues that I have raised and for a to allow that as part of the review. I hope that we will be reasonable opinion to be formed about the workability able to agree to Lords amendment 7. or otherwise of the legislation. Like the hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban), I would encourage the Lords amendment 7 agreed to. Government to think about the lifetime of a Parliament Lords amendment 8 agreed to. 423 1 JULY 2009 424

Speaker’s Statement National Express East Coast Franchise

7.52 pm 7.53 pm Mr. Speaker: Before I call the Minister to make his statement, I regret that this House is the last to hear it. The Minister of State, Department for Transport That said, if the statement had been made earlier it (Mr. ): With permission, Mr. Speaker, I wish would have further constrained the time given to the to repeat a statement made a little earlier by my noble main business of today. I hope that such circumstances Friend the Secretary of State for Transport about the are not repeated in the case of other Departments. In National Express east coast franchise. answer to points of order made earlier today, I acknowledge “I will make a statement about rail services on the that a written ministerial statement was made today at east coast main line. The House will understand that, 7 am, before the Secretary of State’s interview was because of the imperative for the Government to respond broadcast. immediately to the trading statement made by National Express when the markets opened this morning, it was also essential for me to make a written ministerial statement earlier. For some months now, National Express has been seeking to renegotiate the terms of the franchise agreement to operate services on the east coast main line between London, west Yorkshire, the north-east and Scotland that it signed in 2007. My position has been consistently clear—that the Government do not renegotiate rail franchises. That remains the position today. This morning, National Express Group announced that it will not provide the further financial support necessary to ensure that its subsidiary, National Express East Coast, remains solvent. As a consequence, National Express East Coast is no longer able to continue operations to the full term of its franchise, and expects to become insolvent later this year. The decision of National Express to break the contract is regrettable and disappointing. All other rail companies are fulfilling their contracts, despite the economic downturn. It is simply unacceptable to reap the benefits of contracts when times are good only to walk away from them when times become more challenging. My first and overriding obligation in this situation is to ensure continuity of service to passengers, with no disruption or diminution of service standards. When the Government have had to step in to protect rail services in the past, there has been no such impact on passengers. I have therefore established a publicly owned company that will take over this franchise from the point at which National Express East Coast ceases to operate. We will agree an orderly handover with National Express. Until that date, National Express will operate services on the current basis; after that date, the new public company will do so. There will be no interruption of services. Existing operational staff—who continue to provide a good service—will transfer to the new East Coast Main Line Company, and so will the assets necessary for the continuation of the service. I can assure the travelling public that services will continue without disruption and that all tickets will be honoured. I have today appointed Elaine Holt, until recently managing director of First Capital Connect, a major train operating company, as chief executive designate of the new East Coast Main Line Company. The failure of National Express East Coast obviously entails the loss of some future premium payments to which the company was contractually committed. However, while the franchise is under public control, the Government will receive the full revenues of a business that continues to make an operating profit. We will also gain the 425 National Express East Coast 1 JULY 2009 National Express East Coast 426 Franchise Franchise [Mr. Sadiq Khan] national passenger survey, published yesterday. Moreover, the revenue from rail franchises is enabling us to make benefit of any premium payments from the new franchise record investment in upgrading the network and services once it is re-let. This represents a far better deal for the on it. We saw that as recently as last month, in the taxpayer than the only alternative course of action, award of the new south central franchise for services on which was to renegotiate the franchise in an exclusive lines through south London, Surrey and Sussex. That manner with National Express, with no recourse to process was conducted during the recession, yet it yielded what is a highly competitive market for rail franchises. a winning franchise bidder—the existing operator—that The cost of re-letting the franchise will be met from the is committed to paying a premium of £534 million to performance bond of £32 million, to which the company the taxpayer over nearly six years. That will be in place is contractually bound in the event of termination. of the previous contract, under which the operator was National Express also operates rail services on the subsidised by the taxpayer. That bodes well for future East Anglia main line and associated commuter routes. franchise awards, including for services on the east The company has said that it does not intend to default coast main line.” on its obligations in respect of these franchises. Notwithstanding this, the Government believe that we Mrs. Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet) (Con): Twelve may have grounds to terminate these franchises, and we hours after the stock exchange, 11 and a half hours are exploring all options in the light of the group’s after “Today” programme listeners, and some four hours statement this morning. In the meantime, we expect after the House of Lords, we finally get to hear the news National Express to meet its obligations on these franchises officially. What we have heard is evidence of the in full. incompetence and failure that has characterised the Government’s handling of the rail franchising system. The Department’s procurement procedures test a Two franchises have collapsed in the space of two and a company’s track record and its ability to deliver a half years on one of the nation’s most important transport franchise and to demonstrate value for money in doing corridors, on which millions of people and businesses so. It would clearly be reasonable not to invite a company rely, both in England and Scotland. To borrow a well-known to bid for future franchises in circumstances where it phrase, to lose one east coast franchise might be said to had recently failed to deliver on a previous franchise. A be unfortunate; to lose two looks like carelessness. company that had defaulted in the way that National The Secretary of State told their lordships that he Express now intends would not have pre-qualified for hoped that the next franchise would be better than the any previous franchises let by the Department. I note last. Clearly, for Labour, it is third time lucky, or so it that the parent groups of previous franchise failures are hopes. On the “Today” programme, the Secretary of no longer in the UK rail business. State seemed to be saying that National Express East It is the Government’s intention to tender for a new Coast was already in default of its contracts, yet that east coast franchise operator from the end of 2010. The allegation was not repeated in the written statement, or specification of the new franchise will reflect my concern the statement from the Minister today. Does the Minister to secure better passenger services and facilities. In stand by the statement made by his boss this morning? particular, I will be seeking to secure significant further The Secretary of State has claimed that the “Nat Ex” improvements to service quality, including to station holding company is not prepared to “stand by” its security, bike and car parking facilities at stations, bus loss-making subsidiary. Does the Minister regret that interchange facilities and train catering. This will ensure his Government signed up to a deal that caps the a step change improvement for passengers from a new liability of the holding company, and apparently entitles east coast franchise. I intend to consult fully on the new it just to walk away when the going gets tough? Does he franchise specification, including with passenger groups, accept that the incredibly detailed—even invasive, some parliamentarians and the Scottish Executive. would say—due diligence process that the Department I have explained the action that I have taken to ensure for Transport carries out in relation to the credibility of that passengers are not affected by the decision of the franchise bids and bidders has wholly failed in this case? National Express Group, and have explained the How much will re-letting the franchise cost? How much consequences for that group of its decision. Let me also did the original franchise process cost? What assessment put the events in a wider context. No other train operator has the Minister made of alternative solutions to direct has defaulted on its franchise or indicated to us any Government control, such as getting another operator intention to do so. Nor has any other company sought to run the line under a management contract? How to renegotiate its franchise. Today’s events do not represent much will the fiasco cost the taxpayer in total? Will the the failure of the system, but the failure of one company. money come out of the control period 4 funding settlement? The rail franchising system was examined by the National If not, which part of the DFT budget will be raided to Audit Office last year, and was found to deliver good cover it? National Express East Coast was due to pay value for money. The NAO also concluded: £1.4 billion over the lifetime of the franchise to help “The Department’s arrangements for identifying and managing fund CP4. What will be the shortfall on that income? risks, including handling the failure of a train operator, are well How will the Minister plug the resulting black hole in planned and follow good practice.” the funding for CP4? It is that good practice that we are following in today’s Can the Minister tell us whether he expects the announcement, and I would welcome a further examination Government to be able to exercise the cross-default by the National Audit Office once the franchise is re-let. clauses, either immediately or in the future, and will he Rail services at large are steadily improving. Passenger guarantee that in that event, the Government will not numbers are at their highest levels since the 1940s, let services be disrupted? How can the Secretary of punctuality is more than 90 per cent. and overall passenger State possibly say with credibility today that 15 out of satisfaction is rising, as was shown in the latest independent the country’s 16 franchises are completely fine, and that 427 National Express East Coast 1 JULY 2009 National Express East Coast 428 Franchise Franchise it is just a “Nat Ex” problem, when everyone knows I would have hoped, on a day on which a private that there is a red-light list of other franchises? Will company making lots of profits seeks to walk away the Minister come clean and tell us which franchises are from a franchise, and seeks to walk away from passengers on it? who will receive a less good service unless we step in, In conclusion, this debacle shows that Labour learned that the Opposition party would join us, and stand side nothing from the collapse of the Great North Eastern by side with us, and say to that private company, “This Railway franchise. It has continued to press train operators is not good enough. We need a holding company to to make wildly over-optimistic bids. It has wholly failed protect the public and make sure that we have a calm to get a grip on rising costs in the rail industry and in period to reflect on the failures that have occurred, so Network Rail. It has tried to plug the gap by squeezing that when the contract is retendered we have the best passengers for higher and higher fares. It cut a deal that possible arrangements not only for passengers but for capped the liability of holding companies and allows taxpayers.” them to walk away from their subsidiaries with impunity. They cannot wash their hands of the problem by saying Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): that “Nat Ex” got its numbers wrong. The extensive risk It is regrettable and unacceptable that the House is assessment by the Department for Transport of the indeed the last place to be able to question a major business case underlying the franchise bid has wholly decision. I am pleased, however, about the decision that failed, and as a result we have had a yet another has been made, and I am pleased that the Secretary of accidental renationalisation by Labour to add to the State has adhered to the commitment that he gave the lengthening list that began with Network Rail. It is yet Select Committee on Transport that he would not another blow to the public finances, and yet another bill renegotiate a failed franchise. Will my right hon. Friend for Labour failure has landed with the long-suffering assure me that this is indeed a time of change, in which taxpayers, who have already received such punishment standards for passengers will increase, and in which a at the hands of this increasingly incompetent Government. private company cannot benefit from the profits of its successor while, at the same time, the public purse picks Mr. Khan: I had hoped to have the opportunity to up the tab for its failure? Can we have a public sector become friends with the Opposition spokesperson before operator to act as a comparator with the private sector showing the disrespect in which I hold her comments, franchise operators? which lack vigour and do not reflect the facts. I heard Dermot Murnaghan say on “Sky” that he struggled to Mr. Khan: I thank my hon. Friend for her comments. understand her arguments, and I know exactly what he I am pleased that members of the Select Committee are means. She is the spokesperson for a party that privatised able to be present to contribute to this important statement. the railways, that led us to Railtrack—[Interruption.] May I explain to my hon. Friend one of the reasons Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Jackson, we have heard your that the option suggested by Opposition that another comments—we have heard perhaps too many of them—and operating company should take over in the interim is a period of quiet would be helpful. such a bad idea? It would cost us £12 million to start with, it would be a huge advantage to that company Mr. Khan: That led us to the mess that was Railtrack, when it comes to applying for the contract later on, and but the hon. Lady has audacity to tell us that the private the company would have to be incentivised to make the sector is naive, and has been hoodwinked by civil servants arrangement work. The Government’s course of action to bid higher than it should for a contract to run the provides the best value for the taxpayer. east coast main line. The idea that the chief executive who resigned today from National Express and Brian My hon. Friend raises an important point about the Souter from Stagecoach are patsies who have been role of the holding company and who is best placed to hoodwinked by the Department for Transport to overbid run the franchise. I hope that, after a period of reflection, for a contract beggars belief, as does making knee-jerk she will speak to the Secretary of State, to me and to policy on “Sky News”, rather than looking at the facts. others in order to put forward her views. We will speak to parliamentarians, passenger groups, other stakeholder I have talked about vigour. Anybody who has taken groups and the Scottish Executive, and make sure that the time to read the National Audit Office report—not we have time for reflection so that we can get the best simply the research prepared by a researcher—entitled deal possible. “Letting Rail Franchises 2005-2007”, will see that it says of the approach to running rail franchises: Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I mean no disrespect to “The Department’s arrangements for identifying and managing risks, including handling the failure of a train operator, are well the Transport Secretary, the Minister of State or you, planned and follow good practice.” Mr. Speaker, but it is not satisfactory that we are having Let us look further. [Interruption.] The hon. Member the statement seven and a half hours after we would for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) chunters from a have had it, had the Secretary of State been a Member sedentary position, and says, “You’ve had plenty of of this House, rather than of the House of Lords. We practice.” Forty-one franchises have been given out—two need to find a way of having Secretaries of State from have failed, or 4.97 per cent. When I want the hon. the Lords in the Chamber to make statements. If that is Gentleman’s advice, I will ask him for it. The NAO, not possible, the Minister of State should be able to which is the expert, rather than people who go for a make statements ahead of the Secretary of State, at the cheap soundbite on “Sky News”, says of value- for-money normal time. assessment: In respect of the action taken today, first, it was the “The Department’s approach to rail franchising produces generally right decision not to give in to pressure from National well thought through service specifications and generates keen Express for further handouts from the public purse. bidding competition.” Had the Secretary of State done so, there would have 429 National Express East Coast 1 JULY 2009 National Express East Coast 430 Franchise Franchise [Norman Baker] The hon. Gentleman raised an important question about what we call cross-default—that is, the ability of been a queue of train operating companies at his door the Government to take back dirty contracts that the wanting contracts renegotiated and wanting further parent company has in subsidiary holding companies. handouts from the public. He had no option but to take We are exploring all our options, but he will understand the position that he did. However, there will be a if I do not disclose privileged legal advice on the Floor cost—£1.4 billion was the premium that was to be paid. of the House. I appreciate—I have read the quotation—that, There will now be a loss of that premium payment, if one wants a secret kept a secret, one should announce although a profit will be made from the operation in the it on the Floor of the House, but he will appreciate that private sector. However, there will be a gap. Can the representatives of people whom we may sue may be Minister tell us what the gap will be between what watching the proceedings or may read Hansard.WhatI National Express would have paid and what will now be can say is that we will explore our options. We have tried recouped from the public purse? to ensure that we preserve taxpayers’ interests and Secondly, does the Minister agree that if National passengers’ interests. That means exploring all the options Express finally defaults, as now looks extremely likely that are available to us. although it has not defaulted yet, that will call into The hon. Gentleman asked about our ability and the question its competence and commitment as an operator? holding company’s competence, and that is a really Under those circumstances, would it not be right for the important question. We have an excellent designated two other franchises that it holds to be removed from it? chief executive taking over, and we have an excellent After all, why should National Express keep the franchises team that we think will be able to take over the running that it deems to be in its interest and lose the one that it of the contract as and when National Express decides wants to hand back to the public? to walk away. The matter has been under discussion for some time On the question whether we want to keep the service in the Department for Transport. The Department ought in Government hands through a holding company or a to have reached a view on whether it is legal for the two permanent holding company, or to tender for a new other franchises to be taken back by the Department, or franchise, let us be clear: one reason why we are able to whether they are deemed to be separate entities under invest record sums in our railway service is the revenues the National Express heading. Can the Minister tell us that the franchises bring in and the premiums that they what that legal advice is and whether it is possible, pay; one reason why we are able to do the work on High should the Secretary of State wish to do so, for the Speed 2, which will lead to a high-speed link from the companies to be taken back into the public sector, or south to the north, is the system that we have in place; has that not yet been decided? If the Department ends and one reason why we are able to electrify lines as fast up with all three franchises, can the Minister assure the as we possibly can is the investment that we receive from House that it has enough qualified management to that structure. hand in order to run all three competently? There are two ways of securing revenue in the rail Lastly, I turn to the position that the Government sector, and the hon. Gentleman knows about them: one have set out with the intention of re-letting the franchise is via fare payers, and the other is via taxpayers. We are from the end of 2010. I am delighted by the comments trying to ensure that we maximise as much inward of the Chair of the Transport Committee. Instead of investment in the rail sector as we can. retaining the franchise temporarily before re-letting it, what consideration has the Minister given to retaining it Several hon. Members rose— for a much longer period as a public interest comparator driven by passenger-oriented targets, instead of the Mr. Speaker: Order. Twenty three hon. and right hon. pure financial considerations of the Treasury? Would Members are seeking to catch my eye, and I am keen to not such an approach provide a passenger-friendly accommodate as many of them as possible, so I am benchmark that would drive up performance in the looking to each Back Bencher to ask one brief other franchise areas? Will he consider that proposal? supplementary question and to the Minister, of course, to offer the House an economical reply. Mr. Khan: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his questions John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): This and for looking at the facts before asking them. Much is the second time that the franchise has failed in less as I am tempted to do so, I will not indulge in discussion than three years in private hands. When we had the of constitutional matters and where is the right place to same failure with Connex, we brought it into public make a statement and at what time. His comments ownership, it ran for two years as South West Trains, it about us not caving in to the private sector are welcome, was the most successful sector of the railway network and I appreciate his support. and it gave us the public sector comparator. Why cannot The hon. Gentleman asked a number of important we keep the franchise in public ownership? Or, why questions. On cost, we can recover some of the cost cannot we at least allow the public sector to bid when from the performance bond worth £32 million. We will the tender goes out again? be entitled to the premium until National Express walks away, which is its intention, as set out to the stock Mr. Khan: I have no problems with anybody bidding market today. Other premiums will become available for the contract when it comes up for tender. The once the contract is re-let. The revenues that we receive Connex example that my hon. Friend gave is now doing will depend on numbers of passengers who use the rail really well. He will have seen the new Javelin train, service, the class of passenger and the amount of fare which displays remarkable speed and reflects remarkable that they pay, so I cannot give specifics, for reasons that ingenuity on the part of Govia, the company that is the hon. Gentleman will understand. running it. 431 National Express East Coast 1 JULY 2009 National Express East Coast 432 Franchise Franchise Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): How much Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con): The Minister complains money will be put in to the new company as share that a private company has walked away, in the interests capital and how much money as working capital? of its shareholders, from a contract with the Government. Given that the Government wrote the contract and Mr. Khan: If the right hon. Gentleman means the capped the liability on the private company’s holding holding company, I should say that the intention is for company, does the Minister accept that they have any the holding company to take over the day-to-day running responsibility for this mess up? of the line until we are able to tender the contract, which we think will be in late 2010. Mr. Khan: I direct the hon. Gentleman to the report by the National Audit Office, whose views he may Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ respect far more than he does mine. If he takes the time Co-op): The decision to re-let the franchise will inevitably to read it, he will be looking into the capital arrangements, lead to a lot of uncertainty for the passengers and staff when the taxpayer subsidises a rail company and when of National Express. Would it not be much better if we a train operating company pays the taxpayer back. decided either to keep the franchise in public ownership or to have it operated by a not-for-profit mutual, so that John Battle (Leeds, West) (Lab): I thank the Minister the customers’ interest came first, not the interest of for his statement and welcome the Government’s action. shareholders? My city of Leeds is highly dependent on a link with London, not least because it is this country’s second Mr. Khan: As a number of Members from all parts of financial and commercial centre. We have taken a hit the House have said, this is not the first time that a from the banking crisis, and without that link to London franchise has failed. On both previous occasions, we our city would find it difficult to recover. Will the provided stability to passengers and staff. We have Minister assure us that there will be no reduction in confirmed that operational staff will be transferred to services, and that in the short term there could also be a the holding company and that passengers will not suffer. review of high prices, to ensure that people have a No one will suffer in terms of tickets or the timetable. chance to use the line? Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): The Minister must be aware that my constituents are served Mr. Khan: I shall try to respond to those three points by one of the other franchises that National Express in one sentence. There will be no reduction or change in owns, and his announcement causes a good deal of services; we are talking about a prestige line, and that is concern, therefore, because he has not given any indication one of the reasons why we are investing in high-speed of the time that it will take him to make up his mind. links—not only to Manchester, but to Leeds, the west Will he please do so as quickly as possible? My constituents midlands and Scotland. have suffered under a nationalised system before; they get a much better service now; and they want to make Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): Passengers from sure that they keep it. Aberdeen will very much regret this second debacle, and they always regretted the loss of GNER anyway. Mr. Khan: I undertake to make sure that I keep all What can the Minister do in this interim time to ensure Members with an interest informed of developments in that we get competitive fares rather than the extra relation to exploring all our options. I appreciate the charges that National Express imposed? We need to right hon. Gentleman’s concerns about the rail service compete with the airlines, because it is now cheaper to to which he refers, and that is why we will keep all fly than to use the railways. Members updated either via the Floor of the House—this House—or via correspondence. I shall make sure that I Mr. Khan: The right hon. Gentleman raises a really do that. important issue. There are two issues, relating to regulated and unregulated fares. He will be aware that the train Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): I thank the Minister operating companies have agreed to increase their fares for calling me this morning to update me. There is great only by RPI plus 1 per cent. The pundits tell us that the concern in York, not only because the headquarters of RPI should be lower this July, when the figures are the company and hundreds of jobs are based there, but taken, so in January we expect regulated fares to reduce. because the line is so strategically important to Yorkshire However, we cannot escape the fact that unregulated and, indeed, to the whole east of England and Scotland. fares can go up. We advise passengers who go for the Given that this is the second franchise to go belly up in cheap airline tickets also to look for cheap train tickets, three years, will the Minister use the time in which a which can be obtained if they are booked far enough in public company is running the service to pause for advance. thought and consider whether franchising—the poisoned chalice that we inherited from the Conservatives—is an Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): This appropriate way to determine the management of a time around, the public ownership option will not be service that is so strategically and economically important? brushed aside. In the period of calm reflection that we will now have, will the Minister undertake an urgent Mr. Khan: The consultations that my noble Friend review of all the other franchises? He has said that none the Secretary of State and I will carry out in the coming of them is about to default, but can we have a review so period will be interesting. The headquarters to which that we can understand how healthy they are? my hon. Friend referred are in York. I can reassure him that when the holding company takes over the running Mr. Khan: I reassure my hon. Friend that we are in of the contract later on this year, the headquarters will regular contact with all the train operating franchises. stay in York. We know their state of health; part of the franchise 433 National Express East Coast 1 JULY 2009 National Express East Coast 434 Franchise Franchise [Mr. Khan] Mr. Khan: I thank my hon. Friend for what he says about the staff. The railways employ more than 2,000 agreement is that they have to keep us up to date about staff—very good staff who do an invaluable job in their position. I reassure my hon. Friend that no other ensuring that the trains run well. I can assure him that franchise is in a position such as that of National we will include the staff when we speak to stakeholders Express. to ensure that we get the best deal possible, not only for passengers and taxpayers but for staff. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): This is a sad day for those who work on and use the east coast Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): main line. Does the Minister accept that the model that National Express got no brownie points at all when it GNER used for the bid, and National Express repeated, recently introduced a £2.50 each-way seat reservation was based on a false premise—the number of premium charge. That discriminates against elderly people who fares that it was assumed would be paid at a time of cannot run the risk of standing on the train and families credit crunch? Does he also accept that the franchise who wish to travel together. Will he prevail on the new model will work only if the risk is passed to the private interim operating company to reduce this fare rise made sector and does not remain with the taxpayer? by stealth? Mr. Khan: The hon. Gentleman raises a very good Mr. Khan: I do not accept that the former chief point. That is one of the reasons why Labour Members executive of National Express, who resigned today, and believe in regulating. When we re-tender the contract, who was previously head of the Strategic Rail Authority, we will ensure that such things do not happen, instead is naive and does not understand how the market works of allowing the market to dictate what happens on or how to predict the future. He made a bid with open trains. eyes, and was successful; those who were unsuccessful were not far behind the successful bid, either. (North-West Durham) (Lab): I congratulate my right hon. Friend and our noble Friend Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): I thank the the Secretary of State on their statements. Can he Minister for his statement, and welcome what the reassure us that the new trains that are due for the east Government have done today. However, surely this proves coast line are still on track, given the decisions announced that only the public sector can be relied on to maintain today? and run the railway system. Can he therefore give us the good news that the line will not be handed back to the Mr. Khan: We will ensure that we keep to the targets private sector but will remain a publicly owned, publicly we have set and the agreements we have reached. That run and publicly accountable railway, so that we will includes not only the quality of service that passengers not have such debacles in future? receive but investment for the future. Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): Why have Mr. Khan: I hear what my hon. Friend says, but I do the Government effectively served notice on National not agree with him. Fifteen of the 16 franchises are Express with regard to the East Anglia franchise and doing a good job; more passengers are using our railways told the country, “I note that the parent groups of than at any time since the 1940s; punctuality is above previous franchise failures are no longer in the UK rail 92 per cent.; a survey published yesterday shows a high business”, when it is obvious that the Government do satisfaction rate among customers; and we have more not have the power to terminate that franchise, and are investment in our railways than ever before. going to get locked into a legal dispute? Having created Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Does maximum uncertainty for passengers on the East Anglia the Minister not recognise that the bidding process has franchise, will the Government be able to deliver the produced two defaulting operators on this line? If he coup de grâce to National Express or will there be a looks for the level of premiums that he has had from it long period of protracted dispute and uncertainty for in the past he will drive away not only passengers, passengers? because of high fares, but future bidders for the franchise. Mr. Khan: We have said both in this House and in the other House that we are going to explore all our options. Mr. Khan: There would be evidence for what the right It is a statement of fact that the two other parent hon. Gentleman says if the National Audit Office agreed companies—Sea Containers and Connex—no longer with him, but it does not. As the Secretary of State said run trains in the UK. earlier, we welcome the NAO’s looking at the whole process of franchising once we have re-let it. He can be Dr. (Edinburgh, East) (Lab): As an reassured that the process is not at fault: the company is Edinburgh-based regular user of the east coast main at fault, and it is the company that is walking away from line, may I ask my right hon. Friend whether he agrees the contract. that it is a great asset, which is why National Express signed up to put in £1.4 billion to operate it for 10 years? Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): May I suggest We should welcome the Government’s intervention, but to the Minister that the only thing that has happened in may I put it to him that the key thing is to sustain this the past two years is that costs have gone up and service? Will he do all he can to maintain it and go services have gone down? The only people to come out forward and build on it for the future? We have had a of this with any real respect are the staff, who have tried statement today, but we need more statements in future, to hold the service together. Will he ensure that when he because we are all concerned not only about the lines talks to people, he asks the staff and their unions what that we use regularly—many of us use this line regularly, they want to see? They will say that they want public and we have to maintain the quality of service, frequency railways in this country, and they will be right. and everything else—but the railway network generally. 435 National Express East Coast 1 JULY 2009 National Express East Coast 436 Franchise Franchise Mr. Khan: My right hon. Friend, who is clearly an Mr. Speaker: Order. I think one question will do. expert in this area, understands and confirms what we [Interruption.] Order. I gently say to the hon. Gentleman all know—that this is a prestige line. That is why there that I implored Members to ask one question, and I was huge interest in it when it was last up for tender. It think that that will do. The Minister has got the gist. is why, as those who read newspapers will know, takeover attempts were reported in the press in relation to the Mr. Khan: Just in case the hon. Gentleman is in company. I am sure that there will be a lot of interest danger of putting out a press release about this, let me when the contract comes up for re-tender towards the make it clear that we got wind that National Express end of next year. I add that we recently had the experience was going to make a report to the stock market—a of the South Central line, in which there was huge pre-close statement—today. We liaised with your office, interest and for which we got £534 million over a Mr. Speaker, and that of the Lord Speaker, to ensure six-year period. that we gave due courtesy to both Chambers. Before my noble Friend the Secretary of State did any media—there Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and were no press releases—he issued a written ministerial Selkirk) (LD): In the 1,500 square miles of my constituency statement at 7 am, to which you have alluded, Mr. Speaker. there is not a single railway station, which makes the To show the House respect and courtesy, I repeated it in one at Berwick-upon-Tweed, in my right hon. Friend’s my name, also at 7 am. To suggest that we put out press constituency, of great strategic importance to my releases is disingenuous, and I hope that on reflection constituents. Will the Minister give a specific pledge the hon. Gentleman will withdraw that suggestion. that under Government control and the new contract, services to and from Berwick-upon-Tweed will not be Mr. Stewart Jackson: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. altered unless they are improved? You made a point earlier, in answer to a question asked Mr. Khan: The hon. Gentleman has given one example by my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and of the sort of thing that we will be considering when the Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith), about the contract next goes to tender. We will see whether we can transmission of an interview with Lord Adonis, the include such things as a new station. We need to ensure Secretary of State for Transport. It was about whether that we take on board the concerns and issues raised by the transcript of that interview showed that commercial parliamentarians and stakeholders to get the best deal information or a policy statement had been given about possible for passengers. today’s decision by the Government. Have you had a chance to review that transcript, and are you in a Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): In view position to report back to the House the results of of the comments that have been made throughout the your review? day about the Government’s changing attitude to the viability of National Express East Coast, and the position Mr. Jenkin: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker— taken on the two other companies, which my hon. Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) alluded Mr. Speaker: Order. With great respect, before the to, what specific legal advice has the Minister or the hon. Gentleman makes his point, I say gently to the Secretary of State received on the advisability of proceeding hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) that I to remove National Express from the other two franchises? have of course had the opportunity to review the position. What analysis has been made of the financial ramifications I thought that that was perhaps apparent from what I of those actions? said to the House earlier, and I hoped that I had made the position abundantly clear. Mr. Khan: I am slightly confused, because I have answered that question three times. We are going to Mr. Jenkin: Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. explore all the options, legal and otherwise, to ensure The House is grateful for the statement that you made that we get the best deal for the taxpayer, for passengers before the Minister’s statement, but it raises a new and for staff. question. I realise that it is an extremely difficult matter for you to tackle and I greatly appreciate your efforts in John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): Can the Minister that regard. However, if it is now possible for Ministers assure us that he will be working closely with Scottish to issue a written statement to the House at 7 o’clock in Government Ministers both on the refranchising and the morning, which then allows them to go on the on any changes in the interim period? “Today”programme before Members of Parliament—here Mr. Khan: I confirm that we will, and we already are. or in the other place—have had a chance to cross-examine That is very important. them, we are back to square one. I do not know what the solution is, but I hope that you will consider the Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): I welcome matter carefully. the substance of the announcement, considering that National Express has, frankly, run down the service. Mr. Speaker: First, I say to the hon. Gentleman that I However, the way in which it has been made has been am not complaining about any extreme difficulty. It chaos tinged with farce, with press release politics, does not seem to me to be quite as difficult as he developments being heard on the “Today” programme suggests. Secondly, I thought that I had made it clear and later National Express going on the radio to say that there was a response to a commercial situation. that this was actually not happening. There has been Thirdly, it is fair to say to the hon. Gentleman and the confusion in Leeds and other areas. May I ask the House that it is not reasonable to be expected to be Minister, first, to say why the GNER-Virgin bid was not drawn into a continuing debate about those matters accepted at the time, as it seemed a better one? Secondly, when one has already made the position clear. The will he conduct an urgent review of— position may not be liked by all hon. Members, but I 437 1 JULY 2009 Business without Debate 438

[Mr. Speaker] DATA PROTECTION That the draft Data Protection (Processing of Sensitive Personal thought that I had made my intention clear at Data) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 10 June, lunchtime—to go away and consider the situation, which be approved. I duly did. I thought that I made the position even clearer by what I said before the Minister made his statement. I hope that, with that, the matter may be laid REHABILITATION OF OFFENDERS to rest. That the draft Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 (Exceptions) (Amendment) (England and Wales) Order 2009, which was laid Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): Further before this House on 10 June, be approved. to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was here at a quarter to 8 this morning, and would have loved to read EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES the written statement. Where could I have found it at That the draft European Communities (Definition of Treaties) that time? As you know, statements often find their way (Cariforum Economic Partnership Agreement) Order 2009, which to the Press Gallery before they reach the Library. was laid before this House on 1 June, be approved.—(David Normally the House of Commons Library receives Wright.) statements at 9 o’clock at the earliest. If I wanted to Question agreed to. respond to constituents’ queries at a quarter to 8, where could I have found the statement?

Mr. Speaker: I am not at all sure that the hon. Lady BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE would have found it easy to do that. That is a reasonable Ordered, point, into which I will look further. I think that I made That, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the it clear that the circumstances that arose today should intervals between stages of Bills brought in upon Ways and be either relatively rare or, better still, exceptional. I Means Resolutions, more than one stage of the Finance Bill may would not expect such circumstances to repeat themselves be taken at any sitting of the House.—(David Wright.) on a regular basis. I thought that I had already said that. Nevertheless, in so far as the hon. Lady has legitimately challenged me, I am happy to repeat the point. PETITION Business without Debate Hospital Parking Charges (Cheshire)

DELEGATED LEGISLATION 8.37 pm

Mr. Speaker: With the leave of the House, we shall Mr. Mike Hall (Weaver Vale) (Lab): Mid Cheshire take motions 6 to 12 together. Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust has introduced car parking charges at the Victoria infirmary, Northwich. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing After the first 20 minutes, patients and visitors now Order No. 118(6)), have to pay £3 for parking. The Victoria infirmary is the only public facility in Northwich that charges for car CONSTITUTIONAL LAW parking, and I congratulate Gina Bebbington and the That the draft Scottish Parliamentary Pensions Act 2009 Northwich Guardian on their campaign against those (Consequential Modifications) Order 2009, which was laid before charges and on collecting a petition of 7,108 names, this House on 3 June, be approved. calling for car parking charges at the Victoria infirmary, Northwich to be scrapped. BUILDING SOCIETIES The petition states: That the draft Amendments to Law (Resolution of Dunfermline Building Society) (No. 2) Order 2009, which was laid before this To the House of Commons House on 4 June, be approved. The Petition of residents of Northwich, and others, Declares that the car parking charges of the Mid Cheshire BANKS AND BANKING Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust at Victoria Infirmary, Northwich That the draft Dunfermline Building Society Compensation are excessive and represent a charge on people accessing National Scheme, Resolution Fund and Third Party Compensation Order 2009, Health Services. which was laid before this House on 15 June, be approved. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take whatever action possible to require TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF EMPLOYMENT the Mid Cheshire Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust to remove the unfair car parking charges at Victoria Infirmary, Northwich. That the draft National Minimum Wage Regulations 1999 (Amendment) Regulations 2009, which were laid before this And the Petitioners remain, etc. House on 9 June, be approved. [P000387] 439 1 JULY 2009 Bank Lending Policies 440

Bank Lending Policies proceeding to grant a waiver? Why was a decision taken to allow banks that waiver while still allowing the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House contested charges to remain in place? Can the FSA do now adjourn.—(David Wright.) confirm that the waiver will not affect charges being taken from account holders whose income comprises 8.39 pm social security benefits? Finally, what protection is available to consumers who are exempt from arrestment in terms Mr. Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) of section 187 of the Social Security Administration (Lab): May I express my thanks to you, Mr. Speaker, for Act 1992 and section 45 of the Tax Credits Act 2002? allowing me to raise the subject of the debate and take the opportunity to congratulate you on your election to Since then, the banks have been levying excessive your distinguished post? lending charges of up to and including £38 on customers who exceed their limit. That is probably 10 times the Many of my constituents will be pleased that I am actual cost, which may be less than £3, and the practice taking the opportunity to highlight what history will has caused untold financial hardship to many people in surely judge to be a financial injustice perpetrated by my constituency and, I have no doubt, those in other the power of some banks against individual consumers. constituencies. I have countless examples in my office of constituent cases where banks have imposed unfair charges on customers whose accounts may have been only a few Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does my right hon. pounds short for a brief period. Friend agree that the banks’ attitude to people such as Let me briefly sketch the background. The Office of my constituent, Alun Richards, who has been developing Fair Trading launched its investigation into bank charges Tycroes business park very successfully, but now finds in April 2007. It examined the fairness of charging the banks determined to impose unrealistic conditions terms for unarranged overdrafts on personal current on him—in spite of complimenting him on his business accounts under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts plan—is very damaging to the local economy and is not Regulations 1999. In July 2007, the OFT entered into a helping the local area out of the recession in any way? written litigation agreement with seven banks, one building Does he agree that as the Government have given society and the Financial Services Authority, with a money to these banks, we should see it coming through view to bringing a test case to ensure an orderly and to help viable businesses to thrive as we all want them to efficient process for the resolution of the legal issues. in our areas and help us out of the recession? At that time, the FSA issued what is known as a waiver. Essentially, the FSA, as the regulator, was waiving Mr. Clarke: I very much welcome my hon. Friend’s the rules that specify time limits for dealing with any remarks, and I assure her that in my constituency, many complaint about the level, fairness or lawfulness of small businesses in particular take the same view. unauthorised overdraft charges. The managing director Meanwhile, there is no moratorium preventing the of retail markets at the FSA said: banks from continuing to levy the charges I have mentioned, “We have granted the waiver to help facilitate this test case. We which I find completely unfair and also unnecessary. I believe it is not in the interests of all consumers for complaints to have been very critical of the banks on this subject, as is continue to be dealt with in the current inconsistent way”. evident on my website and my annual reports. My Before the test case agreement was reached and the criticisms have also been covered in excellent local waiver was invoked, we were in the scandalous position newspapers such as the Airdrie & Coatbridge Advertiser, in 2007 where banks had paid out a staggering £784 million the Kirkintilloch Herald and the Bellshill Speaker. These to approximately 378,000 customers. Rather than defend newspapers take a very keen interest in my activities on their untenable position in the courts, banks paid out the issue of bank lending charges because they know when challenged. We can take it as read that some of how cruel, punitive and grossly unfair they are to our the banks would not pay out a single penny if they did local people. not need to. I am on record as saying, back in 2007, that this legal It is important to establish my credibility on this battle with banks subject by stating that I am not swimming in a tide of “has all the potential to become stuck in a judicial quagmire populist hostility towards the banks. As a matter of where Banks appear to have deep pockets to fund legal fees in an proof, I have in my possession a letter that I wrote to the attempt to delay justice to hard pressed consumers”. OFT on 15 August 2007 and another one that I wrote to I note that the personal finance campaigner, Martin the FSA on 20 August 2007, along with other Lewis, agrees with me and is quoted as saying: representations. In both letters, I questioned the tactics being deployed and the wisdom of both organisations “The banks have used lawyers as a calculated weapon deliberately in dealing with the vexed issue of bank charges. to delay claims. The High Court and the Court of Appeal have both ruled against the banks and the Court of Appeal did not With your permission, Mr. Speaker, I will now present want the banks to be able to appeal to the Law Lords.” a few of the questions that I asked the OFT then. The law is very clear that bank lending charges are Where is the fairness for consumers who will now have governed by unfair regulations; yet, he said that to wait until the High Court decision before being reimbursed? What financial protection measures are in “the regulator has put on hold consumers’ ability to reclaim place to safeguard consumers, as that court action charges.” means that the banks will be able to hold on to consumers’ Peter Vicary-Smith, the chief executive of Which? said: money even longer? Among the many questions that I “It’s disappointing that nearly two years since this saga began, asked the FSA were these. Was there any consultation little has changed for the millions of consumers being hit with with an appropriate parliamentary Committee before these charges.” 441 Bank Lending Policies1 JULY 2009 Bank Lending Policies 442

[Mr. Tom Clarke] month, she inadvertently became overdrawn by a few pounds when a direct debit—for house insurance—was My concern at the time that this legal process was returned unpaid. initiated by the OFT was that it could drag on endlessly— On 13 May, the woman received a penalty of £35 for certainly beyond what is reasonable—and end up with having the direct debit returned, and a further charge the Law Lords. for an unplanned borrowing facility of £25 was added to her account. The bank requested that she return her Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Will the right hon. account to credit, which she did by paying £72 on Gentleman give way? 21 May. After that financially punitive experience, she was advised by a friend to open an account with another Mr. Clarke: I will but I hope my hon. Friend will be bank, and she arranged to have her pension paid into brief because I am under a time limit. the new account. However, the bank that she was leaving applied a further £60 in charges to her account. On 1 Mark Durkan: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for June, the bank refused to close that account until she giving way. He has clearly reflected the very significant paid the additional £60. That is indefensible; it is quite changes taking place in banking over the past couple of disgraceful. However, such cases of hardship—and there years, but one thing that has not changed is how this are many more—are all too familiar to Members, and House deals with the issue of banking. Given the to organisations that are active in helping people to deal considerable degree of intervention and public ownership with bank charges. in the sector and despite the Trojan work of the Treasury This is how financial hardship is defined by the Select Committee, this House surely needs to come up Financial Services Authority: with some better device for dealing with banks in the current situation. Perhaps having a specific Select “A complaint is considered when his or her income is insufficient to cover reasonable living expenses and meet financial commitments Committee on banking would put manners on some of as they become due”. these proceedings. When my constituents contact their local bank, the Mr. Clarke: My hon. Friend has made an excellent person at the other end is simply not interested. Banks point, and I am very glad that he has put his views on may tell civil servants that that is not true, and advisers the record. may try to persuade Ministers that it is not true, but I am implacably on the side of my constituents who are It seems to me eminently sensible to take appropriate suffering hardship, and I believe their experience to be action and prevent more customers from being overcharged. only too true. However, I accept that it is not enough to No other company would get away with imposing massive flag up the problem, so I want to recommend a solution. penalty charges, and the banking institutions must be pressurised into stopping this malpractice, as it is crippling I should like every bank to set up a special dedicated the personal finances of so many hard-working people. hotline so that customers in hardship can be dealt with immediately. In the present economic climate, although I have no intention of trying to influence the outcome the Government are taking special measures to help of the Law Lords’ test case, but let me spell out the people into employment or with their mortgages, banks consequences for the banks if they lose. It will mean too have a duty to provide a more responsive service for repaying millions of customers billions of pounds because people suffering real hardship, particularly while the the ruling must be retrospective; it will go back at least “waiver” is in place. I intend, with the support of other six years, and perhaps more. The Court of Appeal Members, to pursue the issue with the Financial Services confirmed on 26 February 2009 the OFT’s view that Authority. However, I invite my colleagues in the unarranged overdraft charging terms can be assessed Government to accept that the status quo is unacceptable, for fairness. The court found that those terms were not and to establish a better system for dealing with complaints part of the core or essential bargain between consumers about unfair bank lending charges for people suffering and their banks, and that therefore consumers had hardship. protection under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. That is the judgment against which The banks have dug themselves into a deep hole. So the banks are appealing. far, nearly 1 million people have claimed for the return of their unauthorised overdraft charges, but their cases For the past two years, the banks have enjoyed a are on hold. If the banks lose, the legal arguments bank-charges bonanza in that they need not deal with should proceed to a key stage: a case to determine complaints. The banks have benefited; the losers are whether the charges were fair or not. It could cost the consumers and my constituents. I want to present the banks billions of pounds¸ so we can be in no doubt case for thoroughly decent people who, as a result of about their motivation to continue with the status quo. circumstances beyond their control, find themselves in a very difficult financial position. On 26 February, an appeal by eight banks against a High Court ruling that a regulator could investigate the One woman in Coatbridge has three children, is a fairness of overdraft charges was thrown out. Sir Anthony single parent, and worked hard until recently she Clarke, Master of the Rolls, dismissed the banks’ appeal, unfortunately lost her job. Within weeks she was hit by and told them that they should allow the Office of Fair three £35 bank charges. She depends on state benefits, Trading to decide whether their charges were fair or and however much she tries to obtain a remedy from the not. Four High Court judges had now reached the same bank, it is likely that she will be banging her head conclusion on the issue of the OFT’s jurisdiction. against a brick wall. Another of my constituents was recently widowed. She experienced a difficult time as “We have unanimously concluded that the application should she made the adjustment. She lives alone, surviving on a be refused,” meagre state pension. Last said Sir Anthony. He added: 443 Bank Lending Policies1 JULY 2009 Bank Lending Policies 444

“The issues should now be resolved by an OFT assessment of the banks and the public. This relationship is important, fairness”. and it is important that we get it right. The answer for He refused the banks leave to appeal further, but they today’s problems lies partly in the deregulation of global decided any way to apply directly to the Law Lords for banking in the 1980s, which was followed by huge permission to appeal. Marc Gander of the Consumer financial innovation in the 1990s. This, combined with Action Group said the banks’ decision to appeal further low interest rates around the world—particularly in the was “amazing”, and he added that, “They know no last 10 years—set the scene for one of the biggest shame”. He also said: expansions, and one of the biggest crashes, of global “You’d have thought they would choose to come quietly and credit in history. join the rest of society—it is astonishingly arrogant of these I do not believe the answer is to divide investment people”. banking from “core” deposit taking and lending. This It is time the Government stepped in and said enough creates a “narrow” versus “broad” banks divide. Some is enough. After all, when the banks went bust they have suggested limiting the scale and complexity of were rescued by public money—substantial public money. banks; others have proposed a simple utility bank model. The Government have rightly ploughed countless billions I will say more about this in a moment, but let me first into saving the banks from collapse and helping to come on to the narrower question of bank charges. protect savers. The Government not only have the moral The Government are taking action on bank charges. authority but also the financial leverage to leave the The Office of Fair Trading is pursuing its test case banks in no doubt that when the Law Lords announce against a group of banks about charges for unauthorised their decision this must end. overdrafts and items that are returned unpaid. As my I shall conclude by saying in all candour that hon. right hon. Friend pointed out, in April 2008 the High Members of all parties have much work to do if we are Court ruled that certain terms in the contract governing to regain the trust of the electorate following months of personal current accounts could be assessed for fairness negative publicity. This evening, I hope that we will wish under the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations. to analyse the bank lending charges scandal, and we That was upheld by the Appeal Court on 26 February will find that this punishes the poor in a manner that 2009, and a further appeal was heard recently by the should make us all feel ashamed. It is time that we House of Lords between 22 and 24 June—a ruling is remedied this blatant unfairness. expected in the autumn. Subject to the House of Lords decision, the OFT has written to the banks with a 8.56 pm preliminary view on the fairness of the charges and embarked on a data-gathering exercise to provide the The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah material on which to base a final decision. McCarthy-Fry): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the On 3 April, the OFT announced that it would streamline Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr. Clarke) its investigation by focusing on the terms of three banks on securing the debate and bringing these important in particular. The aim is to progress the case in the matters to our attention. I recognise the difficulties that shortest and most efficient way possible. The OFT can be caused by unexpected bank charges, especially believes that the terms of the three selected banks for the most vulnerable and those on low incomes who provide the best representative selection of all the banks’ are least able to bear them. The examples my right hon. unarranged overdraft charging terms, and therefore the Friend cited are characteristic of similar cases in my outcome of this more focused investigation will be constituency, and we all have sympathy for those affected. relevant to the assessment of other banks’ terms. The Members will appreciate that the question of bank investigation will concentrate initially on the charging charges is linked to wider issues about the banking terms of Lloyds TSB, HSBC and Clydesdale, and the system and the regulatory regime. I do not want to OFT has written to all the banks under investigation to pre-empt any statements that may be made in the Treasury’s outline that decision. forthcoming paper on regulatory reform, but I will say It should not be assumed that the OFT is more or less something in general terms about what the Government likely to find those banks’ terms unfair. The investigation want from the banking and regulatory systems in the into the other banks’ terms is merely on hold and the future, before I come on to bank charges specifically, OFT has stressed that no bank’s terms have been given and the treatment of customers who may suffer hardship. a clean bill of health. The OFT expects to reach final There has been a fundamental breakdown of trust in conclusions on fairness later this year, subject to any the global financial system. All of us—Governments, further legal challenges. Once the application of the regulators and the industry itself—need to work together regulations is clarified, customers will be able to pursue to rebuild that trust. That process will take time. There their complaints against the banks if the outcome of are no instant remedies or overnight solutions; it starts the case is in their favour. with an acceptance that mistakes have been made in the I am concerned, however, that confidence in the retail past, and a willingness to learn the lessons. Although I banks cannot be restored while large numbers of complaints recognise the need to reform the financial system, we are on hold pending a resolution of the test case. One must also be careful to retain what works. We need to way to determine the fairness of the bank charges is for walk a fine line: there must be sufficient regulation to litigation to continue until it reaches a conclusion, safeguard the public interest, but not so much that we which may take some years. An alternative negotiated stem the flow of credit and stifle the very innovation solution could be in the interests of customers, the that can benefit us all. banks and the regulators. As we have heard, until there Banking is, by its nature, about taking risks. The task is a resolution the Financial Services Authority and the is to manage that risk and ensure that the public interest courts have decided that complaints about bank charges is safeguarded. There is an unwritten compact between should be put on hold. The FSA has granted banks a 445 Bank Lending Policies1 JULY 2009 Bank Lending Policies 446

[Sarah McCarthy-Fry] agencies into one—that was a significant step—but more is needed. For example, a new conduct of business waiver from its rules about complaints handling in regime, covering all retail banking services within the respect of charges, subject to a number of conditions. FSA’s remit, will take effect from 1 November 2009. It One is that complaints from customers suffering hardship will introduce a new, principles-based approach to regulation will continue to be heard. The banking code commits and detailed conduct rules for pre and post-sale the banks to identify and resolve situations involving a requirements affecting retail deposit taking. I also look customer experiencing financial difficulty. The waiver is forward to the outcome of the work the OFT has been a matter for the independent regulator and it is subject doing with stakeholders to address the concerns identified to a number of conditions. For example, the FSA may in its market study of the operation of the market for revoke it if the duration of the test case is likely to cause personal current accounts. undue risk to consumers or if no material progress is made in the test case without good reason. Mark Durkan: Will the Exchequer Secretary give Looking ahead, I believe there should be a new way? compact between the people and the banks. Put simply, Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The convention is that it is people need to have confidence that when they open an only the hon. Member who secured the debate who account they will be treated fairly, their savings will be intervenes, but I will give way. safe and they will not be overcharged. Opening an account should not expose customers to the risk that Mark Durkan: I am grateful to the Exchequer Secretary they will suffer detriment. It is a compact built on for giving way to me. Will the FSA also focus on the responsibility, fairness and choice, and it involves shared bespoke banking market in Northern Ireland, which is responsibility between the banks, the regulators, and very different from the banking market elsewhere? Scotland bank customers themselves; fairness, whereby banks also has different conditions. Will the FSA take those and financial institutions operate to benefit consumers, into account? businesses and the wider economy, not just their shareholders or their employees; and choice, in properly Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I cannot answer that question regulated banking markets that are founded on competition, off the top of my head, but I will undertake to write to openness and efficiency. the hon. Gentleman with that information, with special Banks provide an essential service, but they are reference to Northern Ireland. commercial organisations. Governments should intervene I hope that the OFT’s market study, together with the in the market only as a last resort, as intervention may resolution of the bank charges test case, will open the trigger unwelcome and unexpected consequences, but way to the introduction of transparent price structures Governments must none the less act to protect people and simpler mechanisms for switching from one provider when excessive charges or risk taking threatens them. to another. Banks, and in particular their boards, need to recognise I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising these that their duty to shareholders is best fulfilled by acting issues. We must all work together to ensure that we in the interests of their customers and in the interests of learn the lessons. It will take time, but if we clean up not only some but all their employees. Banks’ boards and reform the banks, change their culture, and strengthen need to focus not on short-term profits but on long-term regulation, people can begin to regain their trust in wealth creation, which is best served by meeting the them. That includes ensuring that the regulatory framework service needs of all their customers. protects customers from excessive charges. We also need In order to regain the trust of the public, we need to look at where improvements can be made to banks’ change that extends beyond the boardroom and beyond corporate governance and business conduct, and ensure cleaning up the banks’ balance sheets; we also need to that charges are simple, proportionate and transparent, reform the culture of banks. Regulation, like governance, and we must do this in a way that supports the flow of must be designed in a way that recognises the importance credit to consumers and business. of the financial sector to the economy as a whole. It Question put and agreed to. should reinforce good behaviour and act as a check against bad practices—that should be self-evident. We 9.6 pm have already consolidated seven different regulatory House adjourned. 447 1 JULY 2009 Deferred Divisions 448

Deferred Divisions Hopkins, Kelvin Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Howarth, rh Mr. George Naysmith, Dr. Doug Howells, rh Dr. Kim O’Hara, Mr. Edward ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Olner, Mr. Bill That the draft Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Hughes, rh Beverley Osborne, Sandra (Amendment) Regulations 2009, which were laid before this Humble, Mrs. Joan Owen, Albert House on 13 May, be approved: Hutton, rh Mr. John Pearson, Ian The House divided: Ayes 269, Noes 196. Iddon, Dr. Brian Plaskitt, Mr. James Division No. 172] Illsley, Mr. Eric Pope, Mr. Greg Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Pound, Stephen Irranca-Davies, Huw Prentice, Bridget AYES James, Mrs. Siân C. Prentice, Mr. Gordon Abbott, Ms Diane Corbyn, Jeremy Jenkins, Mr. Brian Price, Adam Ainger, Nick Cousins, Jim Johnson, rh Alan Primarolo, rh Dawn Anderson, Mr. David Crausby, Mr. David Johnson, Ms Diana R. Prosser, Gwyn Armstrong, rh Hilary Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Purchase, Mr. Ken Austin, Mr. Ian Cruddas, Jon Jones, Lynne Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Austin, John Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jones, Mr. Martyn Reid, rh John Bailey, Mr. Adrian Cummings, John Jowell, rh Tessa Riordan, Mrs. Linda Baird, Vera Cunningham, Mr. Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Robertson, John Balls, rh Ed Cunningham, Tony Keeble, Ms Sally Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Banks, Gordon Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Keeley, Barbara Rooney, Mr. Terry Barlow, Ms Celia David, Mr. Wayne Keen, Alan Roy, Mr. Frank Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Davidson, Mr. Ian Keen, Ann Ruane, Chris Battle, rh John Dean, Mrs. Janet Kelly, rh Ruth Ryan, rh Joan Bayley, Hugh Denham, rh Mr. John Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Salter, Martin Beckett, rh Margaret Devine, Mr. Jim Kidney, Mr. David Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Begg, Miss Anne Dismore, Mr. Andrew Knight, rh Jim Sharma, Mr. Virendra Bell, Sir Stuart Dobbin, Jim Kumar, Dr. Ashok Sheridan, Jim Benn, rh Hilary Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Simpson, Alan Benton, Mr. Joe Doran, Mr. Frank Lammy, rh Mr. David Singh, Mr. Marsha Berry, Roger Dowd, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark Skinner, Mr. Dennis Betts, Mr. Clive Drew, Mr. David Lepper, David Slaughter, Mr. Andy Blackman, Liz Durkan, Mark Levitt, Tom Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Eagle, Angela Lewis, Mr. Ivan Smith, Ms Angela C. Blears, rh Hazel Efford, Clive Linton, Martin (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Blizzard, Mr. Bob Ellman, Mrs. Louise Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Blunkett, rh Mr. David Engel, Natascha Love, Mr. Andrew Smith, Geraldine Borrow, Mr. David S. Ennis, Jeff Lucas, Ian Smith, rh Jacqui Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Flello, Mr. Robert MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Snelgrove, Anne Brennan, Kevin Flint, rh Caroline Mactaggart, Fiona Soulsby, Sir Peter Brown, Lyn Flynn, Paul Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Southworth, Helen Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Follett, Barbara Mallaber, Judy Spellar, rh Mr. John Brown, Mr. Russell Foster, Mr. Michael Mann, John Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Browne, rh Des (Worcester) Marris, Rob Stoate, Dr. Howard Bryant, Chris Francis, Dr. Hywel Marsden, Mr. Gordon Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Buck, Ms Karen Gapes, Mike Martlew, Mr. Eric Straw, rh Mr. Jack Burden, Richard Gerrard, Mr. Neil McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Stringer, Graham Burgon, Colin Gilroy, Linda McCabe, Steve Stuart, Ms Gisela Burnham, rh Andy Godsiff, Mr. Roger McCarthy, Kerry Tami, Mark Butler, Ms Dawn Goggins, rh Paul McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Taylor, David Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Goodman, Helen McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Taylor, Dr. Richard Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Griffith, Nia McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Thomas, Mr. Gareth Cairns, David Grogan, Mr. John McDonnell, John Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Campbell, Mr. Alan Gwynne, Andrew McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Todd, Mr. Mark Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Hain, rh Mr. Peter McFall, rh John Touhig, rh Mr. Don Caton, Mr. Martin Hall, Mr. Mike McGovern, Mr. Jim Trickett, Jon Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hamilton, Mr. David McGrady, Mr. Eddie Turner, Dr. Desmond Challen, Colin Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Turner, Mr. Neil Chapman, Ben Hanson, rh Mr. David McIsaac, Shona Twigg, Derek Chaytor, Mr. David Harman, rh Ms Harriet McKechin, Ann Ussher, Kitty Clapham, Mr. Michael Harris, Mr. Tom McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Vis, Dr. Rudi Clark, Paul Havard, Mr. Dai Meale, Mr. Alan Walley, Joan Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Healey, rh John Merron, Gillian Waltho, Lynda Clarke,rhMr.Tom Henderson, Mr. Doug Michael, rh Alun Ward, Claire Clelland, Mr. David Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Miller, Andrew Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Clwyd, rh Ann Heppell, Mr. John Mole, Chris Watts, Mr. Dave Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hesford, Stephen Morden, Jessica Whitehead, Dr. Alan Coffey, Ann Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Morgan, Julie Wicks, rh Malcolm Connarty, Michael Hill, rh Keith Mullin, Mr. Chris Williams, rh Mr. Alan Cook, Frank Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Munn, Meg Williams, Mrs. Betty Cooper, Rosie Hood, Mr. , Mr. Denis Wills, rh Mr. Michael 449 Deferred Divisions1 JULY 2009 Deferred Divisions 450

Wilson, Phil Wright, David Mulholland, Greg Spicer, Sir Michael Winnick, Mr. David Wright, Dr. Tony Murrison, Dr. Andrew Spink, Bob Neill, Robert Spring, Mr. Richard Woolas, Mr. Phil Wyatt, Derek Wright, Mr. Anthony Newmark, Mr. Brooks Streeter, Mr. Gary O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Stunell, Andrew NOES Oaten, Mr. Mark Swayne, Mr. Desmond Öpik, Lembit Swinson, Jo Afriyie, Adam Goldsworthy, Julia Osborne, Mr. George Swire, Mr. Hugo Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Goodwill, Mr. Robert Paterson, Mr. Owen Syms, Mr. Robert Alexander, Danny Gray, Mr. James Penning, Mike Tapsell, Sir Peter Amess, Mr. David Grayling, Chris Penrose, John Teather, Sarah Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Greening, Justine Pritchard, Mark Timpson, Mr. Edward Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Grieve, Mr. Dominic Pugh, Dr. John Tredinnick, David Atkinson, Mr. Peter Gummer, rh Mr. John Randall, Mr. John Turner, Mr. Andrew Baker, Norman Hague, rh Mr. William Redwood, rh Mr. John Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Baldry, Tony Hammond, Mr. Philip Reid, Mr. Alan Vara, Mr. Shailesh Barker, Gregory Hammond, Stephen Rennie, Willie Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Baron, Mr. John Hancock, Mr. Mike Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Walker, Mr. Charles Barrett, John Hands, Mr. Greg Robathan, Mr. Andrew Wallace, Mr. Ben Beith, rh Sir Alan Harper, Mr. Mark Robertson, Angus Walter, Mr. Robert Benyon, Mr. Richard Harris, Dr. Evan Robertson, Hugh Waterson, Mr. Nigel Beresford, Sir Paul Harvey, Nick Robertson, Mr. Laurence Watkinson, Angela Binley, Mr. Brian Heald, Mr. Oliver Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Webb, Steve Blunt, Mr. Crispin Heathcoat-Amory, rh Rogerson, Dan Wiggin, Bill Bone, Mr. Peter Mr. David Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Mark Boswell, Mr. Tim Hemming, John Russell, Bob Williams, Mr. Roger Brady, Mr. Graham Hoban, Mr. Mark Sanders, Mr. Adrian Williams, Stephen Brake, Tom Hollobone, Mr. Philip Scott, Mr. Lee Willott, Jenny Brazier, Mr. Julian Holmes, Paul Selous, Andrew Wilshire, Mr. David Brokenshire, James Horam, Mr. John Shapps, Grant Wilson, Mr. Rob Brooke, Annette Howard, rh Mr. Michael Simmonds, Mark Winterton, Ann Browne, Mr. Jeremy Howarth, David Simpson, David Wright, Jeremy Bruce, rh Malcolm Howarth, Mr. Gerald Smith, Sir Robert Young, rh Sir George Burrowes, Mr. David Howell, John Soames, Mr. Nicholas Younger-Ross, Richard Burt, Alistair Hughes, Simon Burt, Lorely Huhne, Chris Butterfill, Sir John Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Question accordingly agreed to. Cable, Dr. Vincent Hunter, Mark Cameron, rh Mr. David Jack, rh Mr. Michael ADJOURNMENT (SUMMER) Campbell, Mr. Gregory Jackson, Mr. Stewart That this House, at its rising on Tuesday 21 July 2009, do Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Jenkin, Mr. Bernard adjourn till Monday 12 October 2009. Carswell, Mr. Douglas Jones, Mr. David Cash, Mr. William Kawczynski, Daniel The House divided: Ayes 254, Noes 212. Clark, Greg Keetch, Mr. Paul Division No. 173] Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Key, Robert Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Kirkbride, Miss Julie AYES Cormack, Sir Patrick Knight, rh Mr. Greg Abbott, Ms Diane Borrow, Mr. David S. Crabb, Mr. Stephen Kramer, Susan Ainger, Nick Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Curry, rh Mr. David Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Anderson, Mr. David Brennan, Kevin Davey, Mr. Edward Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Armstrong, rh Hilary Brown, Lyn Davies, Mr. Dai Lamb, Norman Austin, Mr. Ian Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Davies, David T.C. Laws, Mr. David Austin, John Brown, Mr. Russell (Monmouth) Leech, Mr. John Bailey, Mr. Adrian Browne, rh Des Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Baird, Vera Bryant, Chris Dorries, Nadine Lewis, Dr. Julian Balls, rh Ed Buck, Ms Karen Duddridge, James Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Banks, Gordon Burden, Richard Duncan, Alan Lidington, Mr. David Barlow, Ms Celia Burgon, Colin Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Burnham, rh Andy Dunne, Mr. Philip Loughton, Tim Battle, rh John Butler, Ms Dawn Evans, Mr. Nigel Luff, Peter Bayley, Hugh Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Evennett, Mr. David Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Beckett, rh Margaret Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Fallon, Mr. Michael Main, Anne Begg, Miss Anne Cairns, David Farron, Tim Malins, Mr. Humfrey Bell, Sir Stuart Campbell, Mr. Alan Featherstone, Lynne Mates, rh Mr. Michael Benn, rh Hilary Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Field, Mr. Mark Maude, rh Mr. Francis Benton, Mr. Joe Caton, Mr. Martin Fox, Dr. Liam McCrea, Dr. William Berry, Roger Cawsey, Mr. Ian Francois, Mr. Mark McIntosh, Miss Anne Betts, Mr. Clive Challen, Colin Fraser, Christopher McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Blackman, Liz Chapman, Ben Gale, Mr. Roger Miller, Mrs. Maria Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Chaytor, Mr. David Garnier, Mr. Edward Milton, Anne Blears, rh Hazel Clapham, Mr. Michael Gibb, Mr. Nick Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Blizzard, Mr. Bob Clark, Paul Gidley, Sandra Moss, Mr. Malcolm Blunkett, rh Mr. David Clarke, rh Mr. Charles 451 Deferred Divisions1 JULY 2009 Deferred Divisions 452

Clarke,rhMr.Tom Iddon, Dr. Brian Primarolo, rh Dawn Stringer, Graham Clelland, Mr. David Illsley, Mr. Eric Prosser, Gwyn Stuart, Ms Gisela Clwyd, rh Ann Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Purchase, Mr. Ken Tami, Mark Coaker, Mr. Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Tapsell, Sir Peter Coffey, Ann James, Mrs. Siân C. Reid, rh John Thomas, Mr. Gareth Connarty, Michael Jenkins, Mr. Brian Riordan, Mrs. Linda Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Cook, Frank Johnson, rh Alan Robertson, John Todd, Mr. Mark Cooper, Rosie Johnson, Ms Diana Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Touhig, rh Mr. Don Corbyn, Jeremy R. Rooney, Mr. Terry Trickett, Jon Crausby, Mr. David Jones, Helen Roy, Mr. Frank Turner, Dr. Desmond Creagh, Mary Jones, Mr. Martyn Ruane, Chris Turner, Mr. Neil Cruddas, Jon Jowell, rh Tessa Ryan, rh Joan Twigg, Derek Cryer, Mrs. Ann Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Salter, Martin Ussher, Kitty Cummings, John Keeble, Ms Sally Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Vis, Dr. Rudi Cunningham, Mr. Jim Keeley, Barbara Sharma, Mr. Virendra Walley, Joan Cunningham, Tony Keen, Alan Sheridan, Jim Waltho, Lynda Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Keen, Ann Singh, Mr. Marsha Ward, Claire David, Mr. Wayne Kelly, rh Ruth Slaughter, Mr. Andy Wareing, Mr. Robert Davidson, Mr. Ian Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Smith, rh Mr. Andrew N. Dean, Mrs. Janet Kidney, Mr. David Smith, Ms Angela C. Watts, Mr. Dave Denham, rh Mr. John Knight, rh Jim (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Whitehead, Dr. Alan Devine, Mr. Jim Kumar, Dr. Ashok Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Wicks, rh Malcolm Dismore, Mr. Andrew Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Smith, Geraldine Williams, rh Mr. Alan Dobbin, Jim Lammy, rh Mr. David Snelgrove, Anne Williams, Mrs. Betty Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Lazarowicz, Mark Soulsby, Sir Peter Wills, rh Mr. Michael Doran, Mr. Frank Lepper, David Southworth, Helen Wilson, Phil Dowd, Jim Levitt, Tom Spellar, rh Mr. John Woolas, Mr. Phil Eagle, Angela Lewis, Mr. Ivan Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wright, Mr. Anthony Efford, Clive Linton, Martin Stoate, Dr. Howard Wright, David Ellman, Mrs. Louise Love, Mr. Andrew Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Wright, Dr. Tony Engel, Natascha Lucas, Ian Straw, rh Mr. Jack Wyatt, Derek Ennis, Jeff MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Flello, Mr. Robert Mactaggart, Fiona NOES Flint, rh Caroline Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Flynn, Paul Mallaber, Judy Afriyie, Adam Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Follett, Barbara Marsden, Mr. Gordon Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Crabb, Mr. Stephen Foster, Mr. Michael Martlew, Mr. Eric Alexander, Danny Curry, rh Mr. David (Worcester) McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Amess, Mr. David Davey, Mr. Edward Francis, Dr. Hywel McCabe, Steve Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Davies, Mr. Dai Gapes, Mike McCarthy, Kerry Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Davies, David T.C. Gerrard, Mr. Neil McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Atkinson, Mr. Peter (Monmouth) Gilroy, Linda McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Baker, Norman Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Godsiff, Mr. Roger McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Baldry, Tony Dorries, Nadine Goggins, rh Paul McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Barker, Gregory Drew, Mr. David Goodman, Helen McFall, rh John Baron, Mr. John Duddridge, James Griffith, Nia McGovern, Mr. Jim Barrett, John Duncan, Alan Grogan, Mr. John McGrady, Mr. Eddie Beith, rh Sir Alan Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Gwynne, Andrew McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Benyon, Mr. Richard Iain Hain, rh Mr. Peter McIsaac, Shona Beresford, Sir Paul Dunne, Mr. Philip Hall, Mr. Mike McKechin, Ann Binley, Mr. Brian Durkan, Mark Hamilton, Mr. David McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Blunt, Mr. Crispin Evans, Mr. Nigel Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Meale, Mr. Alan Bone, Mr. Peter Evennett, Mr. David Hanson, rh Mr. David Merron, Gillian Boswell, Mr. Tim Fallon, Mr. Michael Harman, rh Ms Harriet Michael, rh Alun Brady, Mr. Graham Farron, Tim Harris, Mr. Tom Miller, Andrew Brake, Tom Featherstone, Lynne Havard, Mr. Dai Mole, Chris Brazier, Mr. Julian Field, Mr. Mark Healey, rh John Morden, Jessica Brokenshire, James Fox, Dr. Liam Henderson, Mr. Doug Morgan, Julie Brooke, Annette Francois, Mr. Mark Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Munn, Meg Browne, Mr. Jeremy Fraser, Christopher Heppell, Mr. John Murphy, Mr. Denis Bruce, rh Malcolm Gale, Mr. Roger Hesford, Stephen Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Burrowes, Mr. David Garnier, Mr. Edward Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Naysmith, Dr. Doug Burt, Alistair Gibb, Mr. Nick Hill, rh Keith O’Hara, Mr. Edward Burt, Lorely Gidley, Sandra Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Olner, Mr. Bill Butterfill, Sir John Goldsworthy, Julia Hood, Mr. Jim Öpik, Lembit Cable, Dr. Vincent Goodwill, Mr. Robert Hopkins, Kelvin Osborne, Sandra Cameron, rh Mr. David Gray, Mr. James Howarth, rh Mr. George Owen, Albert Campbell, Mr. Gregory Grayling, Chris Howells, rh Dr. Kim Pearson, Ian Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Greening, Justine Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Plaskitt, Mr. James Carswell, Mr. Douglas Grieve, Mr. Dominic Hughes, rh Beverley Pope, Mr. Greg Cash, Mr. William Gummer, rh Mr. John Humble, Mrs. Joan Pound, Stephen Clark, Greg Hague, rh Mr. William Hutton, rh Mr. John Prentice, Bridget Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hammond, Mr. Philip 453 Deferred Divisions1 JULY 2009 Deferred Divisions 454

Hammond, Stephen Osborne, Mr. George NOTICES OF QUESTIONS ETC. DURING SEPTEMBER 2009 Hancock, Mr. Mike Paterson, Mr. Owen That the days appointed for the tabling and answering of Hands, Mr. Greg Penning, Mike written questions and for written ministerial statements under Harper, Mr. Mark Penrose, John Section Order No. 22B (Notices of questions etc. during September) Harris, Dr. Evan Prentice, Mr. Gordon shall be as follows: Harvey, Nick Price, Adam Tabling days Heald, Mr. Oliver Pritchard, Mark Heathcoat-Amory, rh Pugh, Dr. John Wednesday 2, Monday 7 and Wednesday 9 September 2009. Mr. David Randall, Mr. John Answering days Hemming, John Redwood, rh Mr. John Wednesday 9, Monday 14 and Wednesday 16 September 2009. Hoban, Mr. Mark Reid, Mr. Alan The House divided: Ayes 465, Noes 3. Hollobone, Mr. Philip Rennie, Willie Holmes, Paul Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Division No. 174] Horam, Mr. John Robathan, Mr. Andrew Hosie, Stewart Robertson, Angus AYES Howard, rh Mr. Michael Robertson, Hugh Abbott, Ms Diane Browne, Mr. Jeremy Howarth, David Robertson, Mr. Laurence Afriyie, Adam Bruce, rh Malcolm Howarth, Mr. Gerald Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Ainger, Nick Bryant, Chris Howell, John Rogerson, Dan Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Buck, Ms Karen Hughes, Simon Rosindell, Andrew Alexander, Danny Burden, Richard Huhne, Chris Russell, Bob Amess, Mr. David Burgon, Colin Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Sanders, Mr. Adrian Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Burnham, rh Andy Hunter, Mark Scott, Mr. Lee Anderson, Mr. David Burrowes, Mr. David Jack, rh Mr. Michael Selous, Andrew Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Burt, Alistair Jackson, Mr. Stewart Shapps, Grant Armstrong, rh Hilary Burt, Lorely Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Simmonds, Mark Atkinson, Mr. Peter Butler, Ms Dawn Jones, Mr. David Simpson, Alan Austin, Mr. Ian Butterfill, Sir John Jones, Lynne Simpson, David Austin, John Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Kawczynski, Daniel Skinner, Mr. Dennis Bailey, Mr. Adrian Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Keetch, Mr. Paul Smith, Sir Robert Baird, Vera Cairns, David Key, Robert Soames, Mr. Nicholas Baker, Norman Cameron, rh Mr. David Kirkbride, Miss Julie Spicer, Sir Michael Baldry, Tony Campbell, Mr. Alan Knight, rh Mr. Greg Spink, Bob Balls, rh Ed Campbell, Mr. Gregory Kramer, Susan Spring, Mr. Richard Banks, Gordon Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Streeter, Mr. Gary Barker, Gregory Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Stunell, Andrew Barlow, Ms Celia Carswell, Mr. Douglas Lamb, Norman Swayne, Mr. Desmond Baron, Mr. John Cash, Mr. William Laws, Mr. David Swinson, Jo Barrett, John Caton, Mr. Martin Leech, Mr. John Swire, Mr. Hugo Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cawsey, Mr. Ian Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Syms, Mr. Robert Battle, rh John Challen, Colin Lewis, Dr. Julian Taylor, David Bayley, Hugh Chapman, Ben Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Taylor, Dr. Richard Beckett, rh Margaret Chaytor, Mr. , Mr. David Teather, Sarah Begg, Miss Anne Clapham, Mr. Michael Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Timpson, Mr. Edward Beith, rh Sir Alan Clark, Greg Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Tredinnick, David Bell, Sir Stuart Clark, Paul Loughton, Tim Turner, Mr. Andrew Benn, rh Hilary Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Luff, Peter Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Benton, Mr. Joe Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Vara, Mr. Shailesh Benyon, Mr. Richard Clarke, rh Mr. Tom Main, Anne Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Beresford, Sir Paul Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Malins, Mr. Humfrey Walker, Mr. Charles Berry, Roger Clelland, Mr. David Mann, John Wallace, Mr. Ben Betts, Mr. Clive Clwyd, rh Ann Mason, John Walter, Mr. Robert Binley, Mr. Brian Coaker, Mr. Vernon Mates, rh Mr. Michael Waterson, Mr. Nigel Blackman, Liz Coffey, Ann Maude, rh Mr. Francis Watkinson, Angela Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Connarty, Michael McCrea, Dr. William Webb, Steve Blears, rh Hazel Cook, Frank McDonnell, John Weir, Mr. Mike Blizzard, Mr. Bob Cooper, Rosie McIntosh, Miss Anne Wiggin, Bill Blunkett, rh Mr. David Corbyn, Jeremy McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Williams, Mark Blunt, Mr. Crispin Cormack, Sir Patrick Miller, Mrs. Maria Williams, Mr. Roger Bone, Mr. Peter Cousins, Jim Milton, Anne Williams, Stephen Borrow, Mr. David S. Crabb, Mr. Stephen Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Willott, Jenny Boswell, Mr. Tim Crausby, Mr. David Moss, Mr. Malcolm Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Creagh, Mary Wilshire, Mr. David Mulholland, Greg Brady, Mr. Graham Cruddas, Jon Wilson, Mr. Rob Mullin, Mr. Chris Brake, Tom Cryer, Mrs. Ann Winnick, Mr. David Mundell, David Brazier, Mr. Julian Cummings, John Winterton, Ann Murrison, Dr. Andrew Brennan, Kevin Cunningham, Mr. Jim Wishart, Pete Neill, Robert Brokenshire, James Cunningham, Tony Wright, Jeremy Newmark, Mr. Brooks Brooke, Annette Curry, rh Mr. David O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Young, rh Sir George Brown, Lyn Darling, rh Mr. Alistair Oaten, Mr. Mark Younger-Ross, Richard Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Davey, Mr. Edward Brown, Mr. Russell David, Mr. Wayne Question accordingly agreed to. Browne, rh Des Davidson, Mr. Ian 455 Deferred Divisions1 JULY 2009 Deferred Divisions 456

Davies, Mr. Dai Harris, Dr. Evan Lammy, rh Mr. David Olner, Mr. Bill Davies, David T.C. Harris, Mr. Tom Laws, Mr. David Öpik, Lembit (Monmouth) Harvey, Nick Lazarowicz, Mark Osborne, Mr. George Dean, Mrs. Janet Havard, Mr. Dai Leech, Mr. John Osborne, Sandra Denham, rh Mr. John Heald, Mr. Oliver Lepper, David Owen, Albert Devine, Mr. Jim Healey, rh John Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Paterson, Mr. Owen Dismore, Mr. Andrew Heathcoat-Amory, rh Lewis, Mr. Ivan Pearson, Ian Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Mr. David Lewis, Dr. Julian Penning, Mike Dobbin, Jim Hemming, John Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Penrose, John Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Henderson, Mr. Doug Lidington, Mr. David Plaskitt, Mr. James Doran, Mr. Frank Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Pope, Mr. Greg Dorries, Nadine Heppell, Mr. John Linton, Martin Pound, Stephen Dowd, Jim Hesford, Stephen Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Prentice, Bridget Drew, Mr. David Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Loughton, Tim Prentice, Mr. Gordon Duddridge, James Hill, rh Keith Love, Mr. Andrew Price, Adam Duncan, Alan Hoban, Mr. Mark Lucas, Ian Primarolo, rh Dawn Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Luff, Peter Pritchard, Mark Dunne, Mr. Philip Hollobone, Mr. Philip Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Prosser, Gwyn Durkan, Mark Holmes, Paul MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Pugh, Dr. John Eagle, Angela Hood, Mr. Jim Mactaggart, Fiona Purchase, Mr. Ken Efford, Clive Hopkins, Kelvin Mahmood, Mr. Khalid Randall, Mr. John Ellman, Mrs. Louise Horam, Mr. John Main, Anne Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Engel, Natascha Hosie, Stewart Malins, Mr. Humfrey Redwood, rh Mr. John Ennis, Jeff Howard, rh Mr. Michael Mallaber, Judy Reid, Mr. Alan Evans, Mr. Nigel Howarth, David Mann, John Reid, rh John Evennett, Mr. David Howarth, rh Mr. George Marris, Rob Rennie, Willie Fallon, Mr. Michael Howarth, Mr. Gerald Marsden, Mr. Gordon Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Farron, Tim Howell, John Martlew, Mr. Eric Riordan, Mrs. Linda Featherstone, Lynne Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mason, John Robathan, Mr. Andrew Field, Mr. Mark Hughes, rh Beverley Maude, rh Mr. Francis Robertson, Angus Flello, Mr. Robert Hughes, Simon McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Robertson, Hugh Flint, rh Caroline Huhne, Chris McCabe, Steve Robertson, John Flynn, Paul Humble, Mrs. Joan McCarthy, Kerry Robertson, Mr. Laurence Follett, Barbara Hunt, Mr. Jeremy McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Foster, Mr. Michael Hunter, Mark McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Robinson, rh Mr. Peter (Worcester) Hutton, rh Mr. John McCrea, Dr. William Rogerson, Dan Fox, Dr. Liam Iddon, Dr. Brian McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Rooney, Mr. Terry Francis, Dr. Hywel Illsley, Mr. Eric McDonnell, John Rosindell, Andrew Francois, Mr. Mark Ingram, rh Mr. Adam McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Roy, Mr. Frank Fraser, Christopher Irranca-Davies, Huw McFall, rh John Ruane, Chris Gale, Mr. Roger Jack, rh Mr. Michael McGovern, Mr. Jim Russell, Bob Gapes, Mike Jackson, Mr. Stewart McGrady, Mr. Eddie Ryan, rh Joan Garnier, Mr. Edward James, Mrs. Siân C. McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Salter, Martin Gerrard, Mr. Neil Jenkin, Mr. Bernard McIntosh, Miss Anne Sanders, Mr. Adrian Gibb, Mr. Nick Jenkins, Mr. Brian McIsaac, Shona Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Gidley, Sandra Johnson, rh Alan McKechin, Ann Scott, Mr. Lee Gilroy, Linda Johnson, Ms Diana R. McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Selous, Andrew Godsiff, Mr. Roger Jones, Mr. David McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Shapps, Grant Goggins, rh Paul Jones, Helen Meale, Mr. Alan Sharma, Mr. Virendra Goldsworthy, Julia Jones, Lynne Merron, Gillian Sheridan, Jim Goodman, Helen Jones, Mr. Martyn Michael, rh Alun Simmonds, Mark Goodwill, Mr. Robert Jowell, rh Tessa Miller, Andrew Simpson, Alan Gray, Mr. James Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Miller, Mrs. Maria Simpson, David Grayling, Chris Kawczynski, Daniel Milton, Anne Singh, Mr. Marsha Greening, Justine Keeble, Ms Sally Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Skinner, Mr. Dennis Grieve, Mr. Dominic Keeley, Barbara Mole, Chris Slaughter, Mr. Andy Griffith, Nia Keen, Alan Morden, Jessica Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Grogan, Mr. John Keen, Ann Morgan, Julie Smith, Ms Angela C. Gummer, rh Mr. John Keetch, Mr. Paul Moss, Mr. Malcolm (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Gwynne, Andrew Kelly, rh Ruth Mulholland, Greg Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Hague, rh Mr. William Key, Robert Mullin, Mr. Chris Smith, Geraldine Hain, rh Mr. Peter Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Mundell, David Smith, rh Jacqui Hall, Mr. Mike Kidney, Mr. David Munn, Meg Smith, Sir Robert Hamilton, Mr. David Kirkbride, Miss Julie Murphy, Mr. Denis Snelgrove, Anne Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Knight, rh Mr. Greg Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Soames, Mr. Nicholas Hammond, Mr. Philip Knight, rh Jim Murrison, Dr. Andrew Soulsby, Sir Peter Hammond, Stephen Kramer, Susan Naysmith, Dr. Doug Southworth, Helen Hancock, Mr. Mike Kumar, Dr. Ashok Neill, Robert Spellar, rh Mr. John Hands, Mr. Greg Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Newmark, Mr. Brooks Spink, Bob Hanson, rh Mr. David Laing, Mrs. Eleanor O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Spring, Mr. Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet Lait, Mrs. Jacqui O’Hara, Mr. Edward Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Harper, Mr. Mark Lamb, Norman Oaten, Mr. Mark Stoate, Dr. Howard 457 Deferred Divisions1 JULY 2009 Deferred Divisions 458

Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Trickett, Jon Weir, Mr. Mike Wilson, Mr. Rob Straw, rh Mr. Jack Turner, Mr. Andrew Whitehead, Dr. Alan Winnick, Mr. David Streeter, Mr. Gary Turner, Dr. Desmond Wicks, rh Malcolm Winterton, Ann Stringer, Graham Turner, Mr. Neil Wiggin, Bill Wishart, Pete Stuart, Ms Gisela Twigg, Derek Williams, rh Mr. Alan Woolas, Mr. Phil Stunell, Andrew Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Williams, Mrs. Betty Wright, Mr. Anthony Swayne, Mr. Desmond Ussher, Kitty Williams, Mark Wright, David Swinson, Jo Vara, Mr. Shailesh Williams, Mr. Roger Wright, Jeremy Swire, Mr. Hugo Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Williams, Stephen Syms, Mr. Robert Vis, Dr. Rudi Willott, Jenny Wright, Dr. Tony Tami, Mark Walker, Mr. Charles Wills, rh Mr. Michael Wyatt, Derek Tapsell, Sir Peter Wallace, Mr. Ben Wilshire, Mr. David Young, rh Sir George Taylor, David Walley, Joan Wilson, Phil Younger-Ross, Richard Taylor, Dr. Richard Walter, Mr. Robert Teather, Sarah Waltho, Lynda NOES Thomas, Mr. Gareth Ward, Claire Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Cable, Dr. Vincent Spicer, Sir Michael Timpson, Mr. Edward Waterson, Mr. Nigel Mates, rh Mr. Michael Todd, Mr. Mark Watkinson, Angela Touhig, rh Mr. Don Watts, Mr. Dave Question accordingly agreed to. Tredinnick, David Webb, Steve 71WH 1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 72WH

mentioned was more than three and a half times less Westminster Hall than it was in London. In the case of Manchester, it was three times less than London. Wednesday 1 July 2009 Northern Rail has had no new carriages for the past five years, whereas franchises providing commuter services in London and the south-east have had 580 new carriages [MR.JIM HOOD in the Chair] over the same period. In 2007, approximately a third of the rolling stock serving demand for rail travel in the Railways (North of England) northern passenger transport areas was 20 years old or Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting more. In 2009—this year—that proportion will have be now adjourned.—(Mark Tami .) increased to around 40 per cent. of the fleet. Overcrowding is becoming a real issue in the north of 9.30 am England. Some 60 per cent. of all peak-hour arrivals on Northern Rail services carry standing passengers, and Ms Angela C. Smith (Sheffield, Hillsborough) (Lab): in Manchester more than half of all trains in the peak At the outset, may I say that I appreciate the difficult period have standing passengers. In Merseyside that circumstances of the debate? I will not be referring to figure is more than a third and in Newcastle and Sheffield this morning’s news about the east coast main line being the numbers are substantial and increasing. The reason taken into public ownership, principally because I is the considerable growth in rail journeys between understand that a statement will be made to the House 1995-6 and 2007-08. Rail journeys increased by 70 per later today. It is only right that the House itself is given cent. in west Yorkshire, 57 per cent. in Greater Manchester, the first word from Ministers on the issue, and I shall 43 per cent. in south Yorkshire, 37 per cent. in Merseyside, respect the rights of the Commons and the strong views and 20 per cent. in Tyne and Wear. of the new Speaker in that regard. Between 2006-07 and 2007-08, TransPennine Express saw numbers of passenger journeys increase by 11 per The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport cent., which is second only to levels of growth experienced (Chris Mole): I echo the point made by my hon. Friend. by First Capital Connect. The White Paper, “Delivering A statement will be made in the other place at 3.30 pm a Sustainable Railway”, which was published in summer today and repeated in this House by the Minister of 2007, conceded that in relation to conurbations outside State, Department for Transport, my right hon. Friend London, there has been rail passenger demand growth the Member for Tooting (Mr. Khan). It will set out our of 60 per cent. over the past decade, and that had been response to this morning’s statement from National the norm for those cities. By comparison, the figure is Express on its east coast franchise. I am sure that hon. 32 per cent. in London. Network Rail estimates that by Members will be able to ask questions at that time. 2025, many lines across the network will have no further capacity, even after the currently planned investment Ms Smith: I thank the Minister for that intervention. has been implemented. It is only fair to put on the record some recognition of For hon. Members who represent the north, the the levels of investment in rail during recent years. As weighting of rail investment in favour of London and Lord Adonis said in the transport manifesto that he the south-east is clearly unfair, especially given the presented to the Transport Times conference last week, evidence of upturns in demand in the north and the more than £150 billion has been invested in transport growing problems with capacity in our great northern infrastructure over the past decade. Network Rail has cities. What needs to be done to redress the situation? made it clear that during the next five years, we will Well, obviously, first of all we need a commitment from embark on an investment programme that is bigger the Minister that forthcoming decisions on rail investment than any seen for a generation. In many ways, we are all will be used to balance spending allocations by focusing aware that the time has come for railways. In recent on the needs of the north of England. years, we have seen substantial growth in passenger We need a commitment to the Manchester hub. Some demand and it is anticipated that more is to come. £175 million was spent preparing the Crossrail project. There is increasing recognition of the role that rail can We need a serious commitment soon to developing and play in reducing our dependence on carbon, which is an funding Manchester hub proposals. Why? Because we important context for the debate. Last week, Lord are dealing with capacity constraints in Manchester Adonis again talked about that are absolutely key to extending capacity on the “making low carbon travel a better and steadily more viable and current network across the north and to building new attractive choice within, and between, different modes of transport”. capacity in the interests of the whole of the north. Obviously, that will be extremely important in future Perhaps it should be termed the northern hub. I suggested years. that to Radio Manchester this morning—although I do However, that record of investment in rail and recognition not think they entirely liked the idea. Doing so would of the need to continue investing has to be set in the ensure that all northern regions realise how important it context of a deal for the north of England that is less is to support the Manchester hub, as it is now known, in than satisfactory—in other words, the north has not representations to the Government. had its fair share of the cake. Statistical analyses of We also need investment across the northern network 2009 public expenditure show that spending per head in a whole range of ways, including work on the Leeds on transport was £783 in London. However, in Yorkshire to Selby and York corridor. During peak hours, many and Humber the figure was just £213, and in the north- trains are close to or, in a few cases, beyond nominal east it was even less at £206, although the north-west capacity on that corridor. Significant overcrowding is was relatively lucky in receiving £278 per head. The forecast if additional capacity is not provided. Network figures show that spending in three of the regions I have Rail is planning improvements in capacity on the line, 73WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 74WH

[Ms Angela C. Smith] The economic case for high-speed rail twin routes going up the east and west coasts is based on estimated but in the long term it envisages that the corridor east of agglomeration benefits of £10 billion, with the benefit Leeds will need significant enhancements to deal with of increases in gross domestic product focused primarily potential growth—for example, increasing tracking to on the north. Nevertheless, that £10 billion represents a four tracks on part of the route or carrying out infill benefit to the whole economy, partly because the electrification. establishment of high-speed links between the north As a Sheffield MP, I do not want to obsess too much and the south, and the east and the west, would help to about Leeds, but, in recent years, the Leeds to Manchester integrate the national economy, thereby benefiting London route has also experienced rapid growth in demand for and the south-east as well as the north of England more fast services across the Pennines. Forecasts of future generally. It would help in many ways to close the gap growth suggest significant overcrowding is likely and between productivity in the north and the national that demand management will be necessary unless average, which at present is £30 billion. additional capacity is introduced. Again, some minor Furthermore, there is an argument that establishing capacity improvements are planned by Network Rail, new, fast links between the east and the west of the but Network Rail itself thinks that more line speed country could help to reduce congestion more generally. improvements are required and that significant capacity One of the problems with the rail network is that it runs enhancement is needed if we are to deal with the primarily from north to south. The more we develop demand on that line. links from east to west, the more we can encourage I shall now turn to Sheffield—the greatest city of business traffic and growth in those directions, helping them all, in my view. In the medium to long term, we to reduce congestion more generally. expect significant increase in demand on the route from My final point about high-speed rail is that the Sheffield to Doncaster. In terms of both passenger and agglomeration benefit of establishing high-speed lines inter-modal freight traffic, we need to think seriously—this to the north would be more than twice what the DFT is Network Rail’s view—about four-tracking part of the estimates for the wider economic benefits of Crossrail route and having enhanced access to Rotherham Central and Thameslink put together. and an improved track layout at Doncaster. In addition, it is the view of the South Yorkshire passenger transport Will the north get its fair share? That is a fair question, executive that a small project costing in the region of given the distribution of rail investment so far, the £15 million for a pilot tram-train from Meadowhall to difficulties that many contemplate will emerge from the Rotherham would be an incredibly wise and useful next round of public spending allocations and the spending investment on the part of the Department for Transport. commitments already made on Crossrail of at least £16 billion, if not more; to Thameslink of £5.5 billion Turning to the midland main line, it is essential to for an upgrade; and to the Olympic Delivery Authority, shorten journey times for direct services from Sheffield which has a transport budget of £897 million. The key to London St. Pancras. It is ludicrous that it should take worry for those of us who represent the north is that more than two hours to travel the 165 miles from our investment will be squeezed to protect those budgets. Sheffield to London. Of course, electrification of the line could increase the capacity for carriage of freight. We are worried because early indications of DFT Finally, there are the big projects that the north thinking are not encouraging. If Members cast their needs, such as High Speed 2. We have made the case minds back to January 2008, they will remember that repeatedly in Westminster Hall debates, and Northern the DFT set out proposals to implement high-level Way has clearly made the case for two high-speed lines output specification. Increased rolling stock was to be north to south, and for a new trans-Pennine rail link provided to each train operator. Northern Rail was between the east and west of the country. Members promised 182 new vehicles, including 24 electrics and would expect me to mention the Woodhead route at this 158 diesels. In an update in July 2008, those figures were point, but it is likely that that would be the best means confirmed, yet PTEs have been in detailed discussion of building a trans-Pennine link. with the DFT for some months about the plan for Northern Rail and, although the offer is still under Mr. Clive Betts (Sheffield, Attercliffe) (Lab): I am development, it is clear that the offer from DFT is now, sorry that I cannot be with my hon. Friend for the at best, for little more than half the 182 carriages whole of this debate. I congratulate her on succeeding previously offered. in securing it. As well as the reduction of congestion and the benefits to the economy, does she accept that Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): Does my there would also be major benefits to the environment hon. Friend agree that it is not just the quantity of from two of those projects? First, electrification of the rolling stock, but the quality? Some of the rolling stock midland main line would result in a cleaner railway and, that passes through Bolton Trinity street station should, secondly, high-speed rail lines serving both sides of the frankly, be scrapped. We need replacement carriages as country would, we hope, attract people away from well as additional carriages to meet the extra demand. short-haul air transport. That would benefit the environment considerably. Ms Smith: I totally agree with my hon. Friend. As I Ms Smith: I agree with my hon. Friend about the said earlier, approximately one third of the rolling stock environmental impact of high-speed rail. It was made that serves demand for rail travel in the northern areas absolutely clear at the Transport Committee last week is more than 20 years old. That is something that really in evidence from witnesses that the likely impact of puts people off travelling on trains. If the stock is old, high-speed rail would be to reduce short-haul domestic and if capacity on the network is restricted, people will flights. There is a rock-solid case for such investment. not use the railways—they will stay in their cars. 75WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 76WH

The DFT cites lower demand forecasts as a result of this, because the east coast main line suffers a degree of the recession, yet PTEs have not observed any significant instability as a consequence, and there is an accompanying change in the number of local rail passengers travelling effect on the morale of the dedicated staff, many of in peak periods. They believe that is probably because whom have now worked for both companies and have of suppressed demand caused by the lack of previous had such a frustrating time. It was a tragedy when we investment in capacity. That is the irony of the current lost GNER, which was a standard-setter for customer position, and it absolutely underlines the point made by service in the industry. It was a loss to the industry when my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, South-East GNER was unable to continue. It suffered from one of (Dr. Iddon). On the basis of the reduced offer, PTEs the features of the franchise system, which is winner’s estimate that many trains will be very crowded by 2014; curse: the pressure to put in a high bid to get a franchise for example, it is estimated that by then, 30 trains in regularly leads companies to offer or accept terms they Manchester will be running at more than 100 per cent. cannot subsequently fulfil. Now that has happened to capacity. National Express as well, and the problem has been The reduced offer is not acceptable, and it suggests exacerbated by the effect of the recession on rail travel. key questions. Why the reduction? We need answers During National Express’s tenure there has been quickly to that question. Has the overall number of some reduction in customer service standards on trains. 1,300 additional carriages nationally been reduced as There has been some improvement in punctuality, which well, in line with the reduction for Northern Rail? How is welcome and which the company made a priority, but does the DFT plan to meet the high-level output there have also been problems owing to the investment specification for reducing crowding in major cities with concerns that the hon. Lady mentioned. There are a lot such a reduction? What evidence can the DFT put on of problems with National Express’s inherited rolling the table to demonstrate that the recession has reduced stock, particularly toilets and catering vehicles failing the number of people travelling in peak periods in the and coaching stock having to be taken off trains, leading major cities outside London? to shorter, overcrowded or cancelled trains. This is old rolling stock, which appears to present some serious Mr. Eric Martlew (Carlisle) (Lab): I am sorry to maintenance problems. That has worsened the customer interrupt my hon. Friend’s excellent speech. Given the experience for a lot of people over the past few years. news today about National Express and the possible loss of the franchise, would it not be helpful if the We will learn later today what is to happen. I assume Minister could give us an update on the present situation that we will be into another management contract and when he winds up? then another round of bidding, and somebody else will get winner’s curse and we will have another episode Ms Smith: My hon. Friend may not have heard the such as the ones we have gone through twice before. Minister’s initial comments to the effect that there will However, I sincerely hope not, because we need some be a statement to the whole House this afternoon. We stability on this vital, heavily used rail service that is, as undertook not to say anything on the basis that it would the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) undermine the rights of the House. said earlier in relation to other rail services, extremely important environmentally, because it transfers significant Mr. Martlew: I apologise for being late. numbers of people who would otherwise fly. Passengers in Newcastle and Edinburgh regularly choose whether Ms Smith: We need evidence from the DFT to to take the train or to fly. Nowadays, flying is often demonstrate that the recession has reduced the number cheaper than taking the train. It is in all our interests of people travelling in peak periods in the major cities that the rail service continue to draw custom that would outside London. otherwise go to air services. So we will wait to see what I look forward to the Minister’s answers to those happens later today. questions, and to the biggest question of all: does the It was not quite clear from the Minister’s intervention apparent pulling back from capacity investment by the how the timing will be managed. Do we assume that, DFT indicate that the north will continue to be because the primary statement will be made by the disadvantaged in terms of rail investment, or will Ministers Secretary of State in the House of Lords, the statement commit to redressing the balance? in the House of Commons will not take place until afterwards? The Minister nods, so I will presume—unless 9.49 am he contradicts me—that business in the Commons will Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I be interrupted at some point this afternoon by a statement. congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough Let me mention some other franchises that affect the (Ms Smith) on securing this timely debate, and on north-east of England in particular. The hon. Lady focusing so helpfully on the gap in railway investment referred extensively to Northern Rail, which is a major between the north and the south, and on our needs. As provider of services across the north-east of England. she acknowledged, the Minister said he was somewhat The part of the Northern Rail franchise that most inhibited as to what he could say this morning about affects my constituency is the one that gets the oldest National Express, but I have no such inhibition. I do trains—the Morpeth-Chathill service, which features a not need to be prevented from expressing my frustration train that stops at a place where nobody is allowed to at the situation that has arisen, before I turn to the get on it. I will mention that train later. On Northern investment issues of other companies. Rail’s investment in rolling stock, it is important that we As far as National Express is concerned, we have eventually get rid of the old the Pacer-type trains, which been through all this before. We went through GNER’s are still used on some services. Northern Rail has significant walking away from the franchise. We cannot go on like investment needs. 77WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 78WH

[Sir Alan Beith] Benchers do not involve the north-east, at least until some imagined later stage. I mention a positive or The cross-country franchise is vital to the provision negative impact on the north-east because if high-speed of services from Berwick and Alnmouth and Morpeth, rail becomes a means simply of linking Yorkshire and and it helps to provide a link into the east coast main London, the north-east will suffer significantly owing line services from those stations, where the mainline to an increase in the imbalance of development and trains do not stop. It therefore increases the mainline investment—including general commercial investment— service and provides valuable links right across country away from the north-east and into those areas served by to the midlands, the south and west. Investment in and high-speed rail. High-speed rail could be seriously damaging maintenance of that franchise are important. to us if it does not come to the north-east, which, of TransPennine Express is used a great deal and provides course, can be part of its route to Scotland. High-speed a significantly improved service. I have used that service rail could further increase the links, communication over many years, and it would be wrong not to acknowledge and economic activity between the north-east and Scotland. how much better it is now than in my early days as a Throughout the development of the “Northern Way” Member of Parliament. However, people realise, having initiative, it has been a worry in the north-east that this travelled in continental Europe, how much more could was a Hull-to-Liverpool axis approach, with the north-east be achieved in terms of quality of service, timetable being left out. High-speed rail matters to the north-east, reliability and integration with other public transport and many factors—including the impact on transfer services. We still seem to be struggling to get to the from air to rail, and making the region more attractive standards found in other countries, and it will take to investors who want to be in an area well linked to the more investment to achieve that. south of England—make it central to our economic The mystery train that stops where no one can get on regeneration. I place on the record today that the north-east it is the one that goes twice daily to Belford, in my wants to be part of high-speed rail. constituency, and turns around there. Nobody is allowed to get on it because the platform was taken away some 9.59 am years ago. We in the constituency are trying to get the Graham Stringer (Manchester, Blackley) (Lab): Public platform rebuilt. A project is well under way and I think expenditure will go over a cliff at some time in the next we are getting closer to its fruition. I mention that today 12 months to two years, and I congratulate my hon. because I want a new crop of Ministers to be aware that Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms we really want to see this project through. It does not Smith) on bringing to the attention of the House the involve running extra trains or employing extra staff; it disparities in investment in rail between the north and simply involves putting in place a platform, so that the south of England. When the inevitable happens and people can board a train that sits twice a day at Belford, public expenditure falls, expenditure in the north of thus enabling them to commute into Newcastle by England could go over Beachy Head while that in other train, and enabling visitors to use rail services in a parts of the country could go over a cliff the size of the popular tourist area. kerb, or even go slightly uphill. The reasons are obvious. There are huge commitments for capital expenditure in Mr. John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): That London on Crossrail, Thameslink, and the links to the is a perfect example of an easy win, whereby a relatively Olympic games. We must not forget the public-private small amount of investment in the railways could massively partnership and the underground. Earlier this week, or improve a service to local people. perhaps last week, the National Audit Office pointed out that £400 million had been wasted on that project Sir Alan Beith: Yes, and there are a number of good alone, which is more than is spent on heavy or light rail examples of that happening, but usually they are frustrated in any part of the north. It is an extraordinary amount. by tiresome issues such as the short platform problem We are disadvantaged because of the money that that we have struggled with at Belford. We are told that goes to the south. My hon. Friend gave the figures there is a possibility that a train might arrive at the showing the investment going into London and the station with either the guard not warning passengers or south-east compared with that in the north. I shall too many doors being opened, perhaps allowing somebody make two points on that. First, per capita expenditure to step out where there is no platform. Risk-aversion in London over the past 12 months increased from £667 has been taken to an absurd length on some of these per head to £783 per head, and that difference is half issues, making it more difficult to do simple things such the per capita expenditure in the north-east. That one-year as putting in a small platform to serve an area where the increase is extraordinary. trains are relatively short in any event. Secondly, although I am numerate, it is difficult to I encourage the Minister to remain interested in the keep up with the number of Secretaries of State for Belford project and, of course, in the other projects to Transport and rail Ministers over the past 12 years or develop rail services in Northumberland, such as reopening so. However, I have asked all of them to justify not the lines in the Bedlington and Ashington area, which difference in investment between the north of England could draw significant numbers of passengers into using and the south-east and London—I understand that it is rail, rather than private cars, for journeys to work into crowded down here, things cost more, there may be the Tyneside conurbation. There has been some progress more cost benefit and added value from investment, on that front, and I want it to continue. and that the investment reflects the structure of the High-speed rail will be of crucial importance—either country—but the increasing difference in investment, positive or negative—to the north-east of England. It which is getting worse. Not one has been able to do so. will be positive if the north-east is involved, but projects Will my hon. Friend the Minister rise to that challenge discussed by both Government and Conservative Front and explain why the difference is so great? 79WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 80WH

There are two justifications for public money. One is for all of us to try to get into our party manifestos a that it will help the country’s economy, and the other is commitment to investment in the northern rail system, that it will alleviate social deprivation. The money and to rectify some of the imbalance in investment going into the London system is usually based on added between north and south. value, although there is obviously poverty in the south. High-speed trains have been mentioned. I do not see One might expect the same criteria to apply to money a conflict between increasing capacity in the northern that is spent in the north-west, but the Northwest rail system—the Manchester hub idea—and the high-speed regional development agency, which has some eccentric train. The high-speed train is a long-term project, which policies, does not follow either of those policies. It should benefit the whole country up to Glasgow and neglects rail transport to a large extent, unlike Yorkshire Edinburgh, including Newcastle, Manchester and Leeds, First and some of the other RDAs, but its spending per in whichever of a number of ways it is done. However, head of the population in Manchester, where there we should not lose our focus on the need for immediate would be the greatest added value, is half what Merseyside investment in the northern rail system as well as major receives, which is probably where there would be the national infrastructure improvements in the High Speed 2 next greatest added value, and a third of what goes to project. It would be easy for the Government to say that Cumbria. Expenditure is not based on poverty or added they will not do the former because they are looking at value. High Speed 2, which is a good thing. I welcome the vision of the new team at the Department for Transport Mr. Martlew: Will my hon. Friend give way? and their support for the high-speed link, but it must not be used to divert attention from the immediate Graham Stringer: I have mentioned Cumbria, so I am needs in the system. delighted to give way to my hon. Friend. My final point is about the figures, which are difficult to get, and this is a dramatic way of looking at them. In Mr. Martlew: I understand what my hon. Friend says, London over the next 10 years, around £80 billion of but does he accept that Cumbria comprises 45 per cent. capital will be invested in transport, and the mayoral of the land mass of the north-west? candidates last year claimed that they would invest £40 billion during their period of office, and the figure Graham Stringer: I do accept that. It is a fact. I am is about that. The figures are extraordinary, and I gave talking about expenditure per head of population, which the per capita figures. The figures—they are very loose is a reasonable basis for comparison. and difficult to get to—are 30 to 40 times greater than My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough the investment that is going into the north-west of set out the state of the rail system in the north of England. That simply cannot be justified on any basis England. Yesterday, a passenger survey highlighted the that I can understand. I hope that all political parties poor state of the train service there and showed that take note: if we want this country to be as wealthy as it over the past six or nine months passengers have become should be and the environment to be as good as it can less satisfied as trains have become more crowded, be, we need to use the strength of our regional cities, people have found it more difficult to get on them and which means supporting the transport infrastructure the state of platforms has deteriorated, and because of that goes to them, so that they can play their part in the the lack of staff on platforms. I have said—it is worth economic growth of the country. repeating—that the speed of many trains in the north of England system would have embarrassed Gladstone. 10.10 am They are slower than in the 1880s, which is extraordinary. I want the Government to assure us that when public Mrs. Ann Cryer (Keighley) (Lab): This may not be expenditure cuts come there is positive recognition that relevant, but I declare an interest, in that I hold five £10 the position cannot get much worse; we could get a shares in the Keighley and WorthValley Railway Company, fraction of the investment that we receive now. I also which, I hasten to add, does not pay a dividend. I am want them to respond to the disparities. The needs are also the president of the Keighley and Worth Valley obvious, and we need investment in the system. My Railway Preservation Society, which is the major shareholder hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough in the company. The society is run on highly democratic mentioned the Manchester hub. I do not mind whether lines—we do not have a Sir Topham Hatt, the fat it is called the northern hub or anything else, because controller. I am here simply to support my hon. Friend we are talking about taking out the pinch points on the the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) routes between Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds, between and I congratulate her on securing this timely debate. I Manchester and Sheffield, between Bradford and Preston, shall be brief, as many hon. Members with an abiding and on routes that run parallel with the country’s major interest in the subject are anxious to speak. north-south routes. Removing those pinch points, whether I look forward to hearing this afternoon’s statement Salford or Slade lane junction in Manchester, would about the future of the east coast main line’s major benefit the whole of the northern system. operating company. Many of us have had anxieties MPs, not just in Manchester or the north-west, but about that subject for some time, given the importance from the whole of the north of England, must say that of the company to the future economic well-being not we want that increased capacity in the system, because only of the Worth Valley railway—it transports our we would all benefit economically, socially and visitors and volunteers—but of the north of England environmentally. I am not sure whether this is a party generally, including my constituency. political point, but in the run-up to general elections, I agree with the well-informed criticisms made by my parties tend to say “yes” more easily than Governments hon. Friend and others; there is little point in repeating say “no” after elections. It would be a valuable exercise them. However, on a positive note, I should like to 81WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 82WH

[Mrs. Ann Cryer] where most of my constituents want to go, particularly the students going to Manchester Metropolitan university, mention a few things that have happened since I was Salford university and, of course, the great university of elected. When I was first elected in 1997, both the Aire Manchester—it has an enormous number of students and Wharfe Valley lines, which run through my constituency and is one of the largest campuses in Europe. Instead of to Ilkley, had cascaded-down rolling stock that was going to Piccadilly, many trains have been diverted antique, to say the least. The carriages had slam doors. because of the increased capacity of Virgin trains at Of course, the train could not move off until the doors Piccadilly; they have been rerouted to Victoria station had been closed, and someone as short as me took their in Manchester. That means that people have to cross life in their hands by leaning out of the compartment to town, which adds time to their journey, and many of my get hold of the door to close it. I am very pleased that constituents are arriving late. we have got away from that and we now have the There is a greater difficulty, in that many of my excellent units that ply between Leeds and Skipton, constituents get on at two of the small stations that I through Keighley, and to Ilkley. That makes the lives of have mentioned—Farnworth and Moses Gate—and many my constituents, and particularly those who commute of the commuter trains going through Manchester in to Leeds and Bradford each day, much better. The main the morning and coming back in the evening have only problem with the units is that they do not have elastic two carriages. Ironically, at least one of those carriages sides. Therefore, at peak hours there is major overcrowding. will have first-class capacity, which no one uses. People As I frequently get on at Saltaire and the overcrowding are crammed in like sardines in one and a half carriages is at a peak at that point, I often have to stand to Leeds. and there is a completely empty first-class compartment. The upgrading of Leeds City station took place a That is nonsensical. The trains fill up at Bolton Trinity number of years ago. We now have 16 platforms there. Street. I use the trains myself. I never bother taking a It is a completely different station from the one that we car into Manchester. I always use the train, and every inherited in 1997. I am pleased with the way in which it time I use those trains I am crammed in, squashed has progressed. Leeds is now a real railway hub and against a door. I am hardly able to get out at Manchester most of us in the north-east are proud of it. sometimes when the trains are going through, perhaps I am very grateful for the improvements, but as an to the airport. It is very uncomfortable. old-fashioned socialist, I still believe that privatisation Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): People of the rail network and operating companies was a have a similar experience in my constituency in Leeds, mistake. Network Rail is a welcome improvement, but which has two stations that are the last on the line as today’s news shows, the operating companies and the before Leeds City station. The best way of tackling that method of awarding contracts are unsatisfactory, to say problem is to increase capacity—increasing the number the least. I hope that later today we shall have some of carriages. Surely that is the cheapest way of getting good news that will resolve some of those problems. people out of their cars, making the modal shift and reducing the number of those short commuting journeys 10.14 am by road. Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): I, too, Dr. Iddon: My hon. Friend is right: that is the crux of congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, the debate. I have been the Member of Parliament for Hillsborough (Ms Smith) on gaining this important Bolton, South-East for 12 years and I have been writing debate. I am able to participate only because my Select to successive Ministers and Secretaries of State, pointing Committee sitting this morning was cancelled, so I am out the chaos that existed in 1997 when I was elected. here at short notice. With increased rail use, one can imagine that the situation The Bolton-Manchester rail corridor is one of the has now become extremely demanding for my constituents, busiest in the country. I think that my hon. Friend the and they have been writing to me in increasing numbers Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham Stringer) complaining about not being able to get to work on will agree with that. Trains come through Trinity Street time or even not being able to get to work at all. The station in Bolton from all over the country—trans-Pennine trains fill up at Bolton Trinity Street and by the time trains as well as local commuter trains. There is a real they get to Farnworth and Moses Gate, people are left problem on that line because there are only two tracks standing on the platform. They cannot physically get on in and out of Manchester, so there is congestion, for a the train. It is bad enough for an able-bodied person start, between the express trains, which obviously want such as myself and many of my constituents, but let us to travel extremely fast through the Manchester terminals, imagine a disabled person or an older person trying to and the local commuter trains. As a result, the small board trains that are no better than cattle trucks. stations of Farnworth, Moses Gate and particularly Kearsley have lost rail services to make space for the Graham Stringer: I agree with my hon. Friend’s points. express trains. That is one disadvantage of increased Does he agree that it will be a shocking disgrace if the rail use. train units on the Oldham line which are removed when it is converted for tram use do not stay within the Just before Christmas, the timetabling was altered north-west area, and preferably on the Bolton line? The completely, to the great disadvantage of my constituents. Department for Transport has not made it clear whether The reason for that was a much-improved west coast those trains will be left in the north-west system, as was main line service between Manchester Piccadilly and originally envisaged. London. To make way for increased capacity on Virgin trains, many of my constituents’ timetables were altered Dr. Iddon: Indeed. I was coming to that very point, so that getting to work on time was a great problem. and perhaps I will pick up on it before I conclude. I Many of the trains were diverted from Piccadilly station, entirely agree with my hon. Friend. 83WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 84WH

Many constituents who are left on the platforms then another location in the north-west to alleviate some of have to find an alternative route to work. They either the problems that I hope that I have described on behalf have to take a gamble and stay on the platform for the of my many constituents who are suffering? next train, which will probably also be overcrowded, or My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough they have to take a local bus into Manchester. A number mentioned the reduction in Northern Rail carriages of constituents have written to me saying that they from 182 to 142, although the latest figure that I have regularly arrive at work in Manchester or Salford more heard is 106. As she said, that is a dramatic drop. than an hour late. If that happens frequently, as it does, it puts jobs at risk. Ms Angela C. Smith: My hon. Friend may recall that Hon. Members can imagine what happens in those the latest figures are for less than half the 182 vehicles circumstances: my constituents abandon the rail service promised. and go back to the roads—all this nonsense about trying to persuade people to get out of their cars and on Dr. Iddon: Then I am even more surprised. My hon. the trains certainly does not apply to my constituents. Friend did not mention the reduction in numbers on the Although there is congestion on the roads into Manchester TransPennine Express. My figures—she may have different in the morning, my constituents at least know that they ones—show a reduction from a promised 42 extra vehicles will get to work if they set off in time, whereas it is a to 24. gamble on the train, because they may not get on. I say to my hon. Friend the Minister that if this The solution is obvious—all my constituents can see situation continues, the Government will face increasing it. Instead of having two carriages on the trains, with criticism. Things are already so bad in my constituency part of one carriage being first class, why on earth can that they cannot, frankly, get any worse. we not have another carriage or, indeed, another two carriages? We need to go from two to four carriages on 10.25 am every train going into Manchester in the morning rush hour and returning from Manchester in the evening Mr. David Clelland (Tyne Bridge) (Lab): I congratulate rush hour. my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) on securing this important debate, which is Mrs. Cryer: It has just occurred to me that we have set against the background of massive investment in perhaps not mentioned something. Rail is still the safest our railways, improvements to existing railways and the form of travel, so when my hon. Friend’s constituents floating of proposals for High Speed 2. The Government are pushed from rail to road, they may also finish up in can be congratulated on the investment that has gone an accident and emergency ward. into the railway system. Regrettably, little of that investment impacts directly Dr. Iddon: Rail should be the safest form of travel, on the north and particularly the north-east—an irony, but a disabled person or an older person standing in the it might be argued, given that the railway system was middle of the crush on a train will not think so. Older born in the north-east, which gave the country its first people need to sit down, and disabled people certainly railway line. My colleagues and I are therefore putting need to, but it is not possible to sit down on these trains. the case for the north. Although we appreciate the need Nobody will give up their seat, although it probably for investment in the south’s transport infrastructure, would not be possible to get to the seat in any case. we want to draw attention to the imbalance in the Hon. Members have to see these trains—they are like allocation of resources to the north and the south. That the London tube at the busiest periods in the morning has been admirably highlighted by my hon. Friends the and the evening, and that is constant. Members for Sheffield, Hillsborough and for Manchester, I have travelled on these trains not just at rush hour, Blackley (Graham Stringer), so I will not repeat the but at various hours of the day. I have travelled on figures. airport trains from Bolton to Manchester in the afternoon, Transport infrastructure is crucial to the economic which have the added feature of luggage. Incidentally, and social development of our regions. That is true of the number of airport trains through Bolton has been every region, but it is even truer of the north-east. Our reduced. We are trying to encourage people to use inter-regional and intra-regional transport corridors Manchester airport, and another platform is being built leave much to be desired. Our road and rail infrastructure there to encourage people to use the trains, but getting badly need investment and improvement, as well as an on the train to the airport is a problem. In addition to integrated approach that boosts investment and social the passengers, there is sometimes so much luggage that mobility across the region and beyond. it is on the seats, which prevents people from sitting The east coast main line is a major artery, linking the down. I wish that I could demonstrate that physically so north-east to Scotland to the north, and linking it to that hon. Members could see the absolute chaos on the London and stops in between to the south. It provides a Bolton-Manchester rail corridor. good service and it is popular, but recent events are My hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Blackley worrying. Ministers need to reassure us that the trains mentioned the Oldham loop, and five trains plus the will keep running and that the staff will continue to be rolling stock will be coming off it shortly. Councillor paid, and we look forward to this afternoon’s statement Keith Whitmore, who is chairman of the Greater on the issue. Manchester Integrated Transport Authority, and his The north-east’s economy has traditionally lagged vice-chairman, Councillor Ian Macdonald have written behind the national average, but it has held up well in to the Secretary of State about the loss of the trains recent years, even in the face of national and international from the Oldham loop. Why can we not keep trains that economic difficulties. It is a credit to our businesses, our are already operating in the north-west on the tracks at local authorities and the Government that that is the 85WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 86WH

[Mr. David Clelland] franchise agreement. In the light of the new development the Government also need to take a good look at the case. However, if we are to maintain and improve on the way in which train franchises work. Franchises need to progress that has been made, we cannot afford to rest be longer, with stricter, passenger-focused targets and on our laurels. We need to continue to improve the terms. I hope, again, that some of those matters may be conditions that are essential if business is to thrive and covered in the statement. employment is to grow. That means that High Speed 2 Investing in rail infrastructure, as we have heard from must come to the north-east. It also means that we must many hon. Members, is vital to the economic growth of ensure a high degree of mobility in the region. any region. Good rail links, whether for the transportation Two rail projects in particular could make a major of goods or passengers, are imperative for businesses, contribution to the economic and social future of the trade and social mobility. Without good rail links north-east and could, with a little encouragement from communities become isolated and local economies grind the Department for Transport, become a reality. The to a halt. Speaking as a northerner, I know that “the first, which was mentioned by the right hon. Member north” is a broad term and that there are many specific for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), is the Ashington, issues that other hon. Members have touched on, and to Blyth and Tyne railway, which would be a fully operational which we cannot do full justice today. However, I hope system linking Ashington, Bedlington and Blyth to to mention a few of the more significant issues in the Newcastle. Reintroducing passenger services on the lines next few minutes. All hon. Members here today will be involved would encourage economic development, facilitate well aware of the problems facing train services in the social mobility, relieve congestion on Northumberland’s north of England, almost all of which are linked to busy roads and reduce the traffic that ends up in Newcastle spending. Overcrowding, reduced services, unreliability, city centre. It would also be better for the environment cleanliness issues and poor accessibility are all widespread than the car movements that it would replace. problems across the region, and with the number of rail The second project is the Leamside line—another users increasing dramatically every year, which of course operational railway line that became redundant in the is a good thing, all the issues need to be addressed 1960s, but which, given today’s increased traffic and urgently. overcrowded trains, offers a real source of relief and an In my own constituency of Cheadle, I regularly receive important connection between the Tyne and Tees valleys, letters containing complaints and concerns about local linking Newcastle and Middlesbrough with useful stops services. Cheadle Hulme station is completely inaccessible along the way, including, not least, Washington New for people in wheelchairs or with prams, which is frankly Town. a scandal in this day and age. Many commuters, as we Those two projects would cost a tiny fraction of have heard, are not able to board trains during peak Crossrail, they would involve little disruption and they times because they are so full. Timetable changes to would contribute greatly to the prospects of the north-east accommodate more trains to London have had a disastrous and its people. I therefore look forward to signs of impact on many people’s daily commutes in and out of encouragement from the Minister and to a more optimistic Manchester city centre. The rolling stock is old—in prognosis for the north-east’s transport infrastructure. many cases worn out—uncomfortable to travel in and frankly not up to scratch. It is a scandal that passengers are asked to pay top dollar, in comparison with most 10.29 am other EU countries, to travel in those conditions. The Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): It is a great pleasure to fundamental problem, as so often, is lack of investment. have the opportunity to contribute under your The bulk of what I want to say today is about an issue chairmanship, Mr. Hood. I congratulate the hon. Member that affects passengers across the north of England: for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith) on obtaining capacity. The 2007 White Paper promised an extra this timely debate. As I failed to catch Mr. Speaker’s eye 1,300 carriages to deal with the overcrowding that is rife at Transport questions last week, let me also take this on the network. Northern Rail was allocated 182 and opportunity to welcome the Minister to his post. TransPennine 42, but according to the passenger transport I want to start my remarks with today’s news. I executive group information that has come to some of appreciate that the Minister cannot respond, because of us, the Department for Transport has now indicated the statement to the House that will be made later, but that Northern Rail is likely to get only 106, and possibly the announcement about the east coast main line service fewer, which barely covers what the Department has and the news that National Express is to go into temporary said is needed by the Leeds area alone. Civil servants public ownership is extremely significant. The Government have also confirmed that TransPennine’s allocation will are right to take that step, which will discourage other be cut approximately in half, to 24. If that happens it franchise holders from asking the Government for a will be a disaster not just for northern commuters but discount on their existing contracts. However, I am for our economy. Will the Minister confirm whether concerned that the Government have allowed National those figures are correct, and, if so, why the decision Express to hand back its unprofitable franchise, but to has apparently been made to halve the number of continue to make a profit on the other two. I hope that additional carriages? Certainly it cannot be because of the statement will make it clear whether the Government falling demand. are willing to consider further action to remove those other franchises, so that the burden on the taxpayer will Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): The answer be kept as low as possible. to the hon. Gentleman’s question is clear: it is because The Government should focus on showing the rest of there are not 1,300 new carriages. There are only 973—and the network that it is possible to put passengers first, only some of them are new; some are cascaded from rather than rushing into another poorly planned private other railways. 87WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 88WH

Mark Hunter: I shall come to the hon. Gentleman’s statistical analyses, but they are worth repeating: £783 point about older carriages in a moment. per head of population in London, £206 per head in the The number of rail commuters on local services has north-east, £213 in Yorkshire and the Humber and £278 increased at more than twice the London rate; 60 per in the north-west. One need not be a mathematical cent. of all peak-time trains in Leeds, and more than 50 genius to work out that the allocation for the three per cent. in Manchester, have space for standing only. northern regions together still comes to less than what Do the Government have any evidence to suggest that was spent on public transport in London alone. The the carriages are no longer needed, and will the Minister north of England is asking not for special treatment, say more about what impact he expects the cancellation but for a level playing field on spending. To fail to of carriages to have on future capacity issues? Northern recognise the basic unfairness is to condemn half the Rail has had no new carriages in the past five years, but country to a less than bright economic future. franchises providing commuter services in London and the south-east have had 580 in that period, so I hope the Minister will not say that the carriages that we in the 10.39 am north of England should be getting have now been Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): May I join allocated to Greater London. According to PTEG, a others in congratulating the hon. Member for Sheffield, third of rolling stock in the northern PTE areas was Hillsborough (Ms Smith) on securing the debate? I more than 20 years old in 2007, which raises the question know that she takes a great interest in transport, particularly of how many of the additional carriages that may come those matters that affect her constituency. She eloquently to the north will be second-hand. Will any be refurbished? underlined the failings of the transport system that the I want to move on briefly to the question of the Government have put in place, and she made a good Manchester hub, which seems to have disappeared from case for high-speed rail and for the north. the Government’s radar. The hub would not only help This is the first time that I have met the Minister in a those living in Greater Manchester but would improve Westminster Hall debate, and I am pleased to welcome connections across the north of England, both intra- him to the Department for Transport. I look forward to regionally and with London, and therefore with the rest a number of his responses’ Like everyone else, however, of the UK and Europe. The Government pledged to I recognise that this is a particularly embarrassing day deal with pinch-points in the current rail system, but the for the Government. feasibility study for the Manchester hub was commissioned some 18 months ago. Why have plans for the Manchester The subject of the debate is timely. Public spending is hub progressed at such a dismally slow pace and when the key policy topic at the moment, and it will impact does the Minister believe the real work might begin? directly on resources for the Department—and for the High Speed 2 will, of course, be an incredibly important north. Given the stratospheric levels of borrowing, development for the north and the country as a whole. controlling spending will be a necessity, not an option. It will increase capacity, encourage people off roads and As the hon. Member for Manchester, Blackley (Graham planes and speed up our connection with London. Stringer) pointed out, it will be a necessity for whoever is in power, and of whatever colour, after 2010. We must proactively invest in our rail network to create capacity and improve efficiency, rather than reactively I had the pleasure of visiting Sheffield earlier this working to paper over the cracks. Electrification will be year as a guest of the South Yorkshire passenger transport hugely important for the future, as it will improve real executive. The hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough travel times between cities. I understand that the said that Sheffield was our fourth largest city but that it Government are expected to make an announcement did not enjoy the equivalent quality of rail links. That on electrification soon, and I hope they will commit to was impressed on me strongly by the PTE, as were a electrifying the midland main line and to completing number of other issues. I hope that she recognises that essential fill-in electrifications as a bare minimum. We we in the Conservative party share the aspiration to would of course like many more lines to be electrified, improve transport links to the north of England. including the trans-Pennine routes. In the mean time, The hon. Lady will know that in January my right perhaps the Minister could explain when the announcement hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) will be made. set up a transport commission for the north, to consider We Liberal Democrats also think we need to open old specifically northern matters. Network Rail has made a lines and stations to improve access and capacity. Longer submission to that commission, for which I am grateful. franchises would help with that process, as would our One reason for us doing that is the plan over the next future transport fund, which would more than double five years to implement improvements in line speed on the Government’s planned investment for 2009-14 to the London to Sheffield line, and I understand that East provide an estimated £12 billion to improve rail services. Midlands train services from London to Sheffield are to One such line, of great importance for the north, is the become half-hourly. In addition, Network Rail has said Woodhead tunnel, which was closed in 1981 when the that if funding is secured for further electrification, then Conservatives were in power. It would dramatically services from St. Pancras to Sheffield on Midland Mainline improve trans-Pennine connections between northern would be a priority. cities—primarily Manchester and Sheffield. Will the I realise that this is a difficult day for the Minister, but Minister confirm that the tunnel will not be put to any I wish to ask him about electrification. On Monday, the use that will preclude its being opened to rail traffic in Prime Minister said that there will at some stage be a the future? full programme of rail electrification. Will the Minister However we look at it, it is clear that the north confirm that, since 1997, only 46 route miles, or less currently receives a poor deal on transport spending. than 0.5 per cent. of the national rail network, has been We have heard the figures from the public expenditure electrified? Will he clarify how that electrification is to 89WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 90WH

[Stephen Hammond] they have taken the National Express franchise back into public ownership, many people will want to know happen? I agree that it is an important way of driving whether it was the most effective decision for the taxpayer. operational and carbon efficiencies on the railways, but The Minister may want to talk about the other options it will cost millions of pounds, if not billions. and the possible cost to the taxpayer. We would be Rail budgets have been set until 2014, yet on Monday interested, but I am sure that we shall hear about it this Lord Mandelson announced sweeping cuts to the transport afternoon. budget. How can electrification become a reality? I look As the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough forward to the Minister’s response to that point. Network reminded me, the debate is principally about how much Rail has identified its priorities and has made some case money there will be for the railways, perhaps over for its spending. If the Government want to identify the next 10 or 20 years, but certainly over the next five electrification as a priority, they should be clear about it to 10 years. and say how they intend to spend the money. There is good news for the constituents of the hon. Mrs. Cryer: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough, given the policies Stephen Hammond: No, I am sorry. I promised that I that we have outlined in our rail review. They would would speak for only another two minutes, and I have deal directly with some of the elements raised. For already given way several times. instance, we will allow third parties to bid against Network Rail for small-scale capacity enhancement Despite what the Prime Minister said, capital expenditure projects, which will be the key to some of the overcrowding under the Red Book will decline after 2010, and it will problems mentioned. not rise until the Olympics. Will the Minister confirm that? I look forward to a yes or no answer. On 29 June, Like the Liberal Democrats, we have seen the failure Lord Mandelson said in an interview that Building of the Government’s franchising system and we, too, Britain’s Future, the great new project, reflected a “switch will give longer franchises to train operators. As a in spending” from the Department for Transport to result, there will be more investment, which will give us other Departments. Will the Minister confirm that Building the improvements that we need in stations and trains. Britain’s Future reflects such a switch? We will build a new high-speed link from Leeds to Birmingham and London, which will free capacity in The Budget put in position a squeeze on public other parts of the network. The rationale for that is not spending between 2011 and 2014. Will the Minister totemic: as a number of hon. Members said, the economic confirm that he has read the Red Book, and that his and cost benefits for the north of England will indeed Department understands its implications? Will he say be substantial. whether and by how much the contraction in spending outlined in the Red Book will hit rail services in the north and across the United Kingdom? Will he also Mr. Clelland: The hon. Gentleman mentioned his outline the effect of the announced £6 billion efficiency party’s policy of extending High Speed 2 to Leeds, but savings, which are estimated to represent 6 per cent. of he missed out Newcastle. Will he explain why? current expenditure on top of what is outlined in the Red Book? Stephen Hammond: All transport networks have to start somewhere, and we hope that it will be the first I should be grateful if the Minister were to outline phase in the roll-out of the high-speed network. The exactly which services he expects not to be delivered, Minister will of course want to confirm that the which carriages he expects not to be delivered and Government plan to take high-speed rail only to Rugby. which part of the electrification project he expects not Our policy is to take it further; we see it as part of a to be delivered as a direct result of what is stated in the network strategy. Red Book, of what is stated in Building Britain’s Future, and what is expected from efficiency savings. Under those circumstances, the Government cannot contend Ms Angela C. Smith: It appears that the Conservative that spending will continue to rise; indeed, the Red party is committing itself to substantial spending on Book states that it will decline. Will the Minister tell us transport. Does that indicate that the transport budget today how the announced spending reductions will hit under a Conservative Government would be protected, the nation’s transport infrastructure? and that cuts would therefore be concentrated elsewhere?

Stephen Hammond: The hon. Lady will know from 10.49 am our feasibility study—she has clearly read it—that the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport cost in 2008 prices of a high-speed rail line is about (Chris Mole): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member £20.5 billion. We have committed ourselves to control for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Ms Smith), who is a period 5, which will be the first part of an element of distinguished member of the Select Committee on Government money; it will probably be about £16 billion, Transport, on securing this important debate. She has or £1.3 billion per annum for the build time of that expressed concerns about a range of issues relating to project. The money is ring-fenced and it will be committed rail investment in the north of England, as have other to that project. Members. I shall endeavour to respond to the issues I understand that a statement will be made in the raised, but if I cannot, I promise that they will all be House this afternoon on the collapse of the National considered elsewhere. If I am to cover all the ground, I Express rail franchise. I shall therefore not be asking a fear I shall have to go at the speed of a bullet train. number of substantive questions that I would have I turn first to some recent successes. Railways in the wished to put to the Minister. I am sure that the north of England are a success story. We have seen great Government will answer some of them today. Although improvements in the things that matter most to passengers, 91WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 92WH including punctuality and reliability. I would rather be The Cumbrian coast line has seen the biggest improvements facing the challenges of rising train use than the in 25 years. Thanks to the opening of a third platform consequences of numbers having fallen by the same at Manchester airport, we now have better services to amount as they have risen. In the last full year, reliability the airport and greater reliability as a whole around reached an all-time high for both Northern Rail and Manchester. TransPennine Express, with more than 90 per cent. of I turn to the Yorkshire and Humber region. Back in trains arriving within five minutes of right time. I 2007 the frequency of the service between Leeds and congratulate Northern Rail, TransPennine Express and London was improved to every half hour. Last December Network Rail, which have to work together, on that we provided a new hourly direct service between Leeds, excellent result. Sheffield and Nottingham, opening up new opportunities Passenger satisfaction is also high with more than 80 for business and leisure. In the north-east, the Newcastle per cent. of passengers saying they were happy with to London journey time is one of the fastest in the their journey. The outcome of that is a 34 per cent. country. There are five fast trains per hour between growth in passengers travelling on Northern Rail services Newcastle and York, giving the area excellent connectivity since 2004 and a 67 per cent. increase on TransPennine with the rest of the country. Across the north of England, services. TransPennine Express introduced new trains in 2005 Let us consider what else has been achieved in recent and 2006. Northern Rail has increased its fleet by 30 years, starting in the north-west, which has benefited units, providing 8 million extra seats every year for considerably from the £8.9 billion investment in the passengers. CrossCountry has increased the number of west coast main line. There are now more frequent and carriages on key journeys by reintroducing and refurbishing faster journeys between Manchester and London, with many high-speed diesel train sets for use on the busiest a train every 20 minutes during the day and average services. journey times of about two hours eight minutes. Community rail has been a big success, and there are about 20 routes with active community rail partnerships Mr. Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): and many station partnership groups. These partnerships Does the Minister accept that one part of the north-west bring energy and focus to developing lines. For example, that has not been a success story over the past 11 years the Penistone line now carries more than 1 million is the state of Crewe railway station and the lack of passengers per year. investment there? None of the £35 billion set aside by Network Rail over the next five years is going to that Ms Angela C. Smith: The Huddersfield to Sheffield station. Will he look at the state of Crewe station and line is one of the most overcrowded in the south Yorkshire ensure that investment is made in that important part of region. our rail network? I asked the Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Mr. Khan) the same question Chris Mole: But we are not stopping with what I have just the other day. mentioned so far. Over the next five years, we are determined to address the problems of crowding on Chris Mole: The hon. Gentleman will have heard my many peak commuter services. That will be done mainly colleague’s response during Transport questions last by lengthening trains and platforms. week. I have nothing to add today. The Oldham loop rolling stock has been mentioned. The journey from Liverpool and Preston to London The Department is not planning to provide additional takes just a few minutes more than two hours, and funding for the redeployment of the rolling stock displaced Warrington and Wigan are less than two hours away. through the conversion of the Oldham loop from heavy Chester is one of the big winners having a regular rail to Manchester metro light rail. However, the hourly service for the first time, with a journey time of Department is providing £244.3 million towards the just two hours. expansion of Metrolink to Oldham, Rochdale and Chorlton. That decision does not preclude Greater Mark Hunter: The increasing frequency of inter-city Manchester passenger transport executive from funding services is a double-sided coin. As hon. Members said, the redeployment of the rolling stock, or Northern Rail it has had a negative impact on local commuter services from utilising the stock on a commercial basis. The in and out of cities such as Manchester, because the Department is currently calculating the change in franchise same services criss-cross the same track. Three trains an subsidy payments to Northern Rail, but a figure has not hour between Manchester and London is great, but yet been finalised. The change in subsidy profile to does the Minister recognise that has had a negative Northern Rail reflects the changes in the Department’s impact on our local commuter services in and out of budget resulting from the conversion of the Oldham Manchester? loop.

Chris Mole: That point is clearly acknowledged, and Graham Stringer: I want to address one of the key to an extent is an inevitable side effect of competing for issues. If the integrated transport authority and the line capacity. PTE decide not to invest extra money in the system, Services between the north-west and Scotland have what do the Government intend to do with the trains? also been improved, as have those to the west midlands. Will they go into the south-east system, or will they go Neither have we neglected local services. Northern Rail into cold storage? services on the Calder valley route between Manchester and west Yorkshire have been improved with a fast Chris Mole: The Government’s intention is to increase service between Bradford and Manchester. There are capacity across the network, so we shall see in due more trains between Preston and Manchester via Bolton. course where the trains end up. 93WH Railways (North of England)1 JULY 2009 Railways (North of England) 94WH

[Chris Mole] month. This builds on funding allocated to improve facilities at stations through the “access for all”programme, We are determined to tackle the worst excesses of which assists disabled passengers. crowding and to give passengers a more comfortable The north of England has seen important investment journey. In addition, we want to see even further in freight schemes in recent years. For example, in the improvements in reliability over the next five years. An north-west, access to the Port of Liverpool has been urgent priority is to bring the west coast main line up to improved by the reopening of the Olive Mount chord. the standard of the rest of the network, and I share Across the country, a priority is to enable key freight many Members’ concerns about recent performance on routes to accommodate 9 ft 6 in containers. The west the route. I am pleased that Network Rail has responded coast main line can accommodate the large containers to those concerns and pledged to spend £50 million to on standard wagons, but investment is being made on address them. two routes into Liverpool to provide access to the port. Nor shall we neglect safety. I respect the point made On the east side, improvements have been made to the by my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mrs. Cryer). Hull docks branch line to enable more trains to reach The safety record of the railway is excellent, but we the port, and south of the Humber. Some £10 million must not be complacent, and there is a requirement has been invested in the Brigg line to enable heavy-freight further to reduce risks that have an impact on passenger trains to use the route to reach Immingham. and employee safety. Although over the next five years Over the next five years, we shall work with Network we are focusing on improving safety, performance and Rail and the rail freight industry to develop a network capacity, we are not neglecting journey times either. of routes that can accommodate high containers. One They are excellent on the west coast and east coast main priority is the route from the midlands to south Yorkshire lines, but I admit that those on the midland main line via the east midlands, to complement funding already are less so. That is partly a result of the history and secured for the east coast main line. This will be followed geography of the route, but despite that—I hope this by converting the whole of the east coast main line into answers the question put by my hon. Friend the Member Scotland. for Sheffield, Hillsborough—we are determined to bring down journey times between Sheffield and London to The subject of this debate is spending on railways in as close to two hours as possible. East Midlands Trains the north of England. By and large, the railway network is also planning to increase the frequency of services to is a national one serving a wide range of different Sheffield with pump-priming funding from South Yorkshire markets—long distance, regional passenger, local passenger PTE. The trans-Pennine route has seen great improvements and a wide variety of freight—all of which contribute in rolling stock and frequency in recent years, although individually and together to the benefits that our railways I accept that journey times are relatively slow. bring to our regions. In particular, capital expenditure Although I have focused so far on train services, we in one region often benefits another. For example, the must not neglect other matters important to passengers. huge investment in widening the Trent Valley line in the We are determined to improve the quality of stations west midlands primarily benefits passengers travelling and have allocated £150 million over five years to spend to the north-west of Scotland. on improving many medium-sized stations. Many stations in the north of England will benefit. For example, Mr. Jim Hood (in the Chair): Order. We now come to improvements at Ormskirk will be completed later this the next debate. 95WH 1 JULY 2009 Diversity in Public Appointments 96WH

Diversity in Public Appointments them, public organisations will reflect only one part of society. A society that is becoming ever more diverse as 11 am the world shrinks needs institutions that reflect the reality of today. It is about being not just fair—although (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): I am that is important—but effective. Obtaining a better delighted to have secured the opportunity to discuss reflection of society in the bodies that provide so much this important issue. Public bodies are important. They for society would help them. That means more recruitment carry out a wide range of vital activities that affect the in the areas of gender, age, ethnicity and disability, in lives of people up and down the country. Some supply which there is under-representation. funding, benefiting sectors such as the arts, sports and Some public bodies are working extremely hard to sciences. Others provide health care, safeguard the encourage people from under-represented groups to environment, promote human rights and protect the think about applying. Others make the right noises, but rights and interests of consumers. Many have a role in they are slow to change. Let me give one example from shaping policy and decision making at national level. my own region. The regional development agency, Yorkshire They undertake vital work on behalf of us all. Forward, for which I have a great deal of time and Public bodies are created by the Government but are respect, does a lot of important and good work. On its at arm’s length from the Government. Around 1,200 board of 14 directors, only four are female, while two public bodies are accountable to the British Government, male directors are of ethnic minority origin. and some 18,500 appointments are made to the boards Yorkshire Forward is charged with helping the economy of those regional and national organisations. of the region to grow, including promoting opportunities The important word is “appointments”. People are for everyone regardless of their gender, race or disability. identified, invited and even enticed into undertaking How much more effective could they be if the board such work on our behalf, with the time commitment more accurately reflected the population of our region? varying from a few days each year to between two and Interestingly, at management level, Yorkshire Forward three days a week. The requirement for each board is has achieved a representation that is much more reflective different because of the wide range of activities engaged of the society it serves. It has a management team of in by public bodies. Selection should always be on the six, of which three are women and one is of ethnic basis of merit, with fair, open and transparent recruitment minority origin. processes. Also essential is the requirement that However, there are other issues that we should consider, appointments should broadly reflect the make-up of such as where people live, where they come from and society. That is because we need not just fairness and their economic background. Too many public bodies, equity—although such traits are important—but the particularly those with national responsibilities, have best people with the right mix of skills, experience and boards overwhelmingly comprised of people from London background, who do not come from just one section of or the home counties and who are largely from middle society. We have to accept that the current situation, in class backgrounds. which the majority of appointments are white men, is not meeting that objective. It is good that the Government have agreed a new plan to tackle the matter and that it goes right across all Women represent 51 per cent. of our population, but Departments. As public bodies report to a wide range make up only 33.3 per cent. of public appointees. About of Departments that is essential. The two Departments 14 per cent. of the working-age population have a that are centrally involved are the Cabinet Office and disability, but disabled people make up only 5 per cent. the Government Equalities Office—whose Minister is of public appointees. Fewer than 6 per cent. of public here today. I am delighted to welcome him to his post appointees are from an ethnic minority background, although he has had a few weeks to get his feet under despite the fact that the overall ethnic minority population the table. is nearer 11 per cent. The stated aim of the plan is that by 2011, 50 per The Commissioner for Public Appointments said in cent. of new appointments will be women, 14 per cent. her 2007-08 report that she was disappointed by the fall will be people with disabilities and 11 per cent. will be in the overall number of female appointees and people from ethnic minority populations. Such targets re-appointees in England and Wales, and also by the are clearly meant to transform bodies to reflect society numbers of appointees from an ethnic minority and and, therefore, should be welcomed. However, are they those who have a disability. There was also a significant sufficient? Assuming that the targets are met, it will take fall in the number of female chairs of boards, and those some time before the current situation is significantly with disabilities appointed to health boards compared changed. The current make-up of boards will change with previous years. very slowly because appointments are often for three Over a 10-year period, female appointments have years and some people are, quite rightly, re-appointed generally remained at around 33 per cent., with only because they have the right experience and they continue. slightly higher levels between 2003 and 2007. Ethnic That means it could take some time even to hit the minority appointments increased from 3.7 per cent. in targets before we see the make-up of the boards significantly 1998 to 6.5 per cent. in 2004. However, they then changed. dropped back to 5.7 per cent. in 2007 and 2008. By There is an argument for encouraging bodies that contrast, appointments of people with disabilities have make appointments to exceed the targets and to arrive continued to rise from a very low base of 1.5 per cent. in more quickly at better representation on their boards. 2001 to around 5 per cent. in 2008. However, making improvements will prove challenging As I have already said, public bodies are responsible if we look at the experience to date. The statistics for for both service delivery and policy, so without the gender and ethnicity for the last 10 years show a static widest range of experience, skills and background guiding position, or a slowly developing position, rather making 97WH Diversity in Public Appointments1 JULY 2009 Diversity in Public Appointments 98WH

[Meg Munn] to meet the new targets, what strategies are being put in place? How long does he estimate it will take to achieve progress. We must encourage a much wider group of fair outcomes if the targets set by the Government are people to consider putting themselves forward for such to be met? What arrangements are in place to monitor positions so that we have a larger pool from which to and review progress of the plan, and how will they be select. reported? How will my hon. Friend ensure that good Sometimes, people do not come forward because practice is disseminated and bad practice tackled early? they do not know about the public bodies in the first Diversity on public boards matters. I sincerely hope place. Even when they know about them, the present that the Government’s good intentions as set out in the composition of the leadership may confirm their plan will achieve the desired outcomes. assumptions that the organisation is just not for them. More emphasis on putting on boards role models from under-represented groups is one way to take things 11.13 am forward. The Parliamentary Secretary, Government Equalities Developing good practice is essential, and that means Office (Michael Jabez Foster): I congratulate my hon. better research. Each appointment process should include Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) a strong candidate diversity strategy that is designed to on securing this debate, which I think is important, include innovative ways to attract new people. It should despite the number of Members who have come along use language and images that attract the sort of people to take part. She has been at the forefront of equality needed for that particular appointment. Perception is issues, particularly in public life as the former Minister very important. We should not use acronyms, such as for Women and Equality, as well as in much wider roles. BME and LGTB, that people in the equality world Ensuring that our public bodies are representative of understand but the majority do not. the communities they serve goes to the heart of creating We need to pay greater attention to the type of people a fairer and more equal society. We need more women, who are recruited. Young people, for example, rarely sit more ethnic minorities and more disabled people involved on public boards but bring a perception that those of us in all aspects of public life. Whole sections of the who can no longer call ourselves young do not have, population are not adequately represented in our democratic and health boards benefit from the participation of institutions. That is not just unfair for those who deserve service users. better representation; we are all the losers. The problem Nurturing and developing candidates is vital. They is that decisions on our public bodies and for our public might need help learning the responsibilities of their services can be better made and meet the needs of all role and acquiring new skills to play their part effectively parts of our society only if the people making them in directing organisations that might be large and have a bring diverse experiences to bear and are representative wide range of responsibilities. Other support might be of the wider community. needed, such as child care provision or transport for That becomes even more apparent when one considers people in remote rural areas. People with disabilities the role and purpose of public bodies, which my hon. might need extra help preparing for and participating in Friend clearly identified. From funding the arts, sports meetings. and science to providing essential health care, from I recently visited an organisation in Sheffield called safeguarding the environment to promoting human rights, Speaking Up for Advocacy. The organisation supports and from protecting the rights and interests of consumers people with learning difficulties, disabilities and mental to delivering justice, public bodies take decisions that health problems in speaking up for themselves, including affect the lives of us all. taking part in committees that make decisions about To ensure that our public bodies fulfil their duties as services for people with disabilities. Advocacy and support effectively as possible, we need the brightest and best at help people to take part fully and to be prepared to ask the top making decisions. It cannot be that the brightest when something happens in a meeting that they do not and best do not include the groups to which my hon. understand. That is something that many of us find it Friend referred. She is right to point out that at the difficult to admit to, but those people have learned to moment, we are missing out on a wealth of talent and say, “Please explain what is happening here,” so that experience. Diversity of representation would bring diversity they can take part fully and ensure that they are listened of thought, fresh ideas, new perspectives and a better to properly and respected. I have no doubt that although understanding of the communities that public bodies advocacy has helped people take part, it has also demanded are supposed to represent. Greater diversity would also a change in the behaviour of other board members. I bring lasting cultural change. That is important, because hope that the Minister will confirm that that, too, is it would create more positive role models for those in part of the strategy. less well-represented communities, encouraging others It is important to recognise that we need to ensure to step forward and apply for public appointments. that people are retained once they are recruited. If the Despite some progress, talented people are still being behaviour of other board members and, crucially, the left behind and continue to be grossly under-represented chair, is not welcoming and does not support new on the boards of our public bodies. My hon. Friend members, they might not stay. Equally, failure to ensure gave some numbers that are worth repeating. Women that appropriate support measures are in place will lead currently hold just over a third of public appointments, to people leaving. Developing best practice and ensuring despite making up half the population. Disabled people that it is disseminated will be important. make up just 5 per cent. of appointees, even though In conclusion, although I welcome the new plan, I they make up 14 per cent. of the working-age population. should be grateful if the Minister covered the following Ethnic minorities hold fewer than 6 per cent. of posts issues in his response. Given the major change required despite making up nearly 11 per cent. of the population. 99WH Diversity in Public Appointments1 JULY 2009 Diversity in Public Appointments 100WH

Despite our Government’s good intentions over the There must be stakeholder engagement. Stakeholder past 12 years, progress in addressing that imbalance has is another of those words that we should not use if we been woefully inadequate. Thankfully, in response to can avoid it, as my hon. Friend rightly said. What does the challenge, we launched a far-reaching plan two it mean? It means the people who represent the groups weeks ago designed to step up the pace of change. we want represented on these bodies. We must work Toensure recruitment of the brightest and best candidates with those partners to develop their knowledge and from across the whole of society, all new public networks so that we can deliver the changes that we appointments regulated by the Office of the Commissioner want for under-represented groups. for Public Appointments will be subject to challenging Most important, we will have a new leading-edge targets. Our aim is that by 2011, across Government as mentoring scheme for high-potential applicants and a whole, 50 per cent. of new appointees will be women, near hits—applicants who are good, but do not have the 14 per cent. will be disabled people and 11 per cent. will necessary experience of the process to get the job. That be from ethnic minorities. Although we do not have goes to the heart of what my hon. Friend was saying. sufficient statistical evidence on the under-representation Through mentoring, we will help such candidates to of other groups to which my hon. Friend referred, such ensure that they can access training and other support. as lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual people, faith My hon. Friend said further development is needed to communities and those of diverse social backgrounds, I include what is missing. When people go to Jobcentre should point out that the action plan aims to increase Plus, they are asked about the barriers to work. The the diversity of those holding public appointments across flexibility now exists to allow those with barriers such the board. as child care and transport to find work. We must do However, the Government agree with my hon. Friend the same for public appointments. We should be looking that targets are not enough. What matters is how we go at what are the barriers for otherwise good and well about meeting them. We have put together a purposeful qualified candidates. package of measures to make the difference. The measures My hon. Friend asked how we will know that we are will increase the visibility of the appointments system, doing what we intend. There will be a timetable of ensure transparency and accountability and tackle head-on monitoring with targets monitored every six months, the barriers that people too often face in putting themselves rather than just a three-yearly review. Performance will forward. be published so that we can check how well we are What is the master plan? First, it is important that we doing. produce awareness-raising materials, as people need to As my hon. Friend said, we have extended the role of know what is out there. That might include the use of the Commissioner for Public Appointments by giving the internet and new technologies, being where people her the power to promote diversity in the procedures for are, promoting public appointments to a wider range of making public appointments. Surprisingly, she did not people—perhaps even at the school gates if necessary—and have that power until it was introduced in October. It is specifically targeting under-represented groups. now an important tool in her armoury to help her to Meg Munn: The ideas that my hon. Friend is setting achieve her aims. Her office is also developing a targeting out are interesting, but I am sure he would agree that talent strategy. I like the title “targeting talent”—it has one of the most difficult problems is getting people something about it, but it must also be meaningful. It is from a wider geographical area on the national bodies about looking to see who is out there who can do the that are so important to the issues that we deal with. I job, and encouraging them to apply, rather than being do not know whether he is will come to it, but I would passive and waiting for people to make applications. be grateful if he could discuss in detail how we can get fewer people from the south-east and more people from Meg Munn: I am sure the Minister will accept that a wider area. when targeting talent, people from under-represented groups such as the people with learning difficulties Michael Jabez Foster: My hon. Friend makes an whom I met in Sheffield may not appear to have talent important point. It could be suggested that national at the outset. However, once helped and supported in bodies are London-centric, or at least south-east-centric expressing their views, they can be exceptionally good. I and that other people do not have the same opportunities. hope that targeting talent also means developing that Although there have been improvements in regional talent, not just looking to those who appear immediately boards, national boards still seem to have that problem, to have the skills and abilities. so an important part of our diversity proposals is that regional targeting will be part of future planning. Michael Jabez Foster: My hon. Friend makes an It is important that we share best practice and important point. Of course it is important not to look communicate across Government to help drive improved at things simply at face value. If we dig, we will find the performance, including in the regions. That will be talent, and the scheme must do just that. That is another supported by the regional outreach campaign, which reason why it is important to work with our stakeholder must be effective if it is to achieve the results we want. groups. They know how we can achieve that better than We will monitor the regional outreach programmes. the top-down approach or the use of ministerial templates, We need a stronger evidence base. My hon. Friend’s which may not fit the bill. We want to be sure that we case is correct in terms of absolute numbers. However, are doing that. we want to know more about issues such as multi- The Department’s action plan complements the aims membership of organisations. How many people are of the Equality Bill, which is strengthening and streamlining really involved and how many are serial appointees? legislation to ensure that there are equal opportunities That is an important aspect in determining whether for all. The Bill will introduce wider positive action there is true diversity and we will monitor it. provisions that public authorities will be able to use to 101WH Diversity in Public Appointments1 JULY 2009 Diversity in Public Appointments 102WH

[Michael Jabez Foster] when they sit at a table where everyone else is different. My hon. Friend is right: we must ensure that the chairs address under-representation and disadvantage. That and other members of the bodies are given basic training means not only that we will have those targets, but that in welcoming groups and individuals who come from people will not complain—I am sure—if an equally different backgrounds. qualified candidate from an under-represented group is The Government are keen to consider other initiatives. appointed. That is the only way to achieve our objectives. It might be possible for MPs to keep in their offices lists I am confident that with the right support, those of individuals who would be suitable candidates. I measures can deliver the change that we all want to see. encourage hon. Members to do that. However, change does not happen through Government We have made some progress, even in Parliament. In action alone. We must work with the stakeholder groups 1997, just 9 per cent. of Members were women. The and with those who identify candidates—sometimes figure is now 20 per cent. In the Thatcher and Major called head-hunters. Just last week, we held meetings years, the number of women in the Cabinet peaked at with head-hunters to ask them to think differently. It is two. Seven women now attend Cabinet meetings, although easy to find people who fit the job description. However, not all are full Cabinet members. There is much more to it is not easy to find those who meet the job description, be done. but do not put themselves forward. We need to be My hon. Friend concluded with four questions. I searching for such people. Therefore, head-hunting means hope that I have set out in sufficient detail the action just that from now on; it means looking for people who plan strategy, our commitment to monitor progress can do the job just as well as the rest, but who come through six-monthly reviews, and our intention to from the under-represented groups. We need to work disseminate good cross-governmental practice and to together. discourage bad practice. I hope too that I have made it It is especially important in these difficult economic clear that although we intend to meet our appointment times to create an environment and culture of ambition, targets by 2011, the new appointment objectives start aspiration and equality of opportunity that enables now. If there is anything to be learned from the history everyone to fulfil their potential. We would like our of the equality movement, it is that change does not stakeholders to tell potential candidates about the new happen overnight; it takes commitment, tenacity and measures, and encourage them to come forward. We real action on several levels, from the grass roots to the want potential candidates to put themselves forward, top. We must join together and push twice or perhaps although I appreciate that is not always easy. My hon. three times as hard to effect real and lasting change. I Friend made the important point that they must be am grateful to my hon. Friend for initiating this important encouraged when they do put themselves forward. debate. I know she wishes us well, as I wish her well. There is an attitude problem. None of us feels comfortable in a foreign environment. That must be the 11.28 am case for groups who are currently under-represented Sitting suspended. 103WH 1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 104WH

Air Quality (Aircraft) is well aware of the issue, as are the airlines. After a disastrous flight on a BAe 146, on which two stewards collapsed and after which the crew went to hospital, 2.30 pm Flybe decided not to use those aircraft again. Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): It is According to the clinical neuropsychologist a pleasure to participate in this important debate, which Dr. Mackenzie Ross up to 200,000 passengers are affected is well overdue. I must declare an interest as I am a pilot; by aerotoxic syndrome every year, but when one thinks I therefore understand some of the issues perhaps better about any of one’s experiences on an aircraft, one than others. In the interests of brevity, I hope to explain realises that one feels pretty lousy when one gets off the reasons why I asked for the debate without losing anyway. We may attribute that feeling to the time change, hon. Members in too much technical detail. jet lag or even the food on the aircraft. It is difficult to I begin by posing the key question: is there a fundamental put one’s finger on, or understand, the scale of the design fault in passenger aircraft that exposes passengers problem, because not enough research has been conducted and crew to dangerous and potentially lethal toxic on the issue. fumes? To place that question in context, one must first In the studies that have taken place, however, there appreciate how modern aircraft pressurise the air so have been some interesting results. The German television that passengers and crew can breathe normally at high network ARD and Schweizer Fernsehen—Swiss altitudes. Up to about the late 1950s, pressurised air was Television—secretly took 31 swab samples from the taken from outside and depressurised using cylinders aircraft cabins of popular airlines, of which 28 were and so forth, but a cheaper way was found that involves found to contain high levels of TCP. Other scientific taking pressurised air from the compressor stages of an research, which was not necessarily linked to airlines, aircraft’s jet engines. The air is cooled and flows into a has proved that there is a direct link between TCP chamber where it is mixed with highly filtered air from toxins and the human condition that I have discussed. the passenger cabin. The air then flows through the That demonstrates the long-term link between low-level cabin and exits through valves in the fuselage. It is exposure to organophosphates and the development of called the bleed air system and has worked efficiently neuro-behavioural problems. That position has been for many years. However, while micro-organisms may advanced by the US Research Advisory Committee on be trapped by those filters, it is clear that other toxins Gulf War Veterans’ Illnesses. Some 25 per cent. of Gulf may not, which is the whole reason for this debate. war veterans suffered from the effects of organophosphate The use of air that has passed through the engine poisoning, and the organisation was able to establish means there is a probability that toxins and that link, but unfortunately we have not been able to organophosphates, particularly tricresyl phosphate, or confirm the same link in relation to the airline industry. TCP, which is used as an anti-wear additive, can enter I hope that the Minister is willing to address that issue. the cabin. Those toxins are not removed by the filters. The consequences of TCP entering the cabin can be Airline pilots report symptoms similar to signs of headaches and drowsiness, as well as respiratory and aerotoxic syndrome. neurological problems. That is certainly unpleasant for passengers, but is potentially lethal for pilots. Captain Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): My hon. Tim Lindsey, a British airline pilot who supplied evidence Friend is making a powerful speech, but will he clarify to the Committee on Toxicity of Chemicals in Food, one point? He said that, unfortunately we have not been Consumer Products and the Environment died in January able to make a connection, but I think he meant to say 2009 of brain cancer—a long-term effect of toxicity that unfortunately, no such study has been conducted exposure. over here to establish whether that connection exists. Is that right? The condition caused by TCP has now been called aerotoxic syndrome, and the airline industry is familiar with it. Unfortunately, however, pressures within the Mr. Ellwood: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that industry mean that reporting of the syndrome is not as clarification. That is exactly what I am calling for, and I fair as it should be. Symptoms include eye irritation, hope the Minister will respond to that point. Until we respiratory problems, headaches, skin problems, nausea, have the information that my hon. Friend mentioned, vertigo, loss of balance, dizziness, fatigue and cognitive we will be in a very difficult place for making a judgment impairment—all things that one does not want the about what steps should be taken, rather than simply person in charge of the plane to suffer from. turning our backs on the issue. It is interesting to consider which planes are the most The British Air Line Pilots Association has found vulnerable. All aircraft may be affected, as the bleed air that only 61 of 1,667 contaminated air events were system is similar throughout all aircraft, which means recorded on the UK Civil Aviation Authority database. that whenever any of us flies we could be exposed to That equates to just under 4 per cent., which may be a those toxins from the air that is taken via the engine. small number from that perspective, but I return to my However, one is more likely to be exposed to toxins original point about how many incidents have been through certain aircraft designs than others. The main reported correctly. How many pilots simply said, “I aircraft are the Boeing 757, the Airbuses 319 and 320, don’t really want to rock the boat, or be seen to cause the Boeing 737 and the BAe 146. Interestingly, a different problems; I’ve got my future to look after, so I’m not design has been chosen for the cabin air system in the going to bother filling out that incident report”? The new Boeing 787, which is about to be rolled off the real figure could be a lot higher. factory floor. In that new system, the air does not go However, passengers want to make sure that the anywhere near the engines. I do not attribute any fault figure is down to 0 per cent. They want to be sure that to the old systems, but simply note that the new aircraft all pilots and co-pilots are fit and healthy when they get is already moving away from that old design. The industry on a plane and when they get off it after a flight. 105WH Air Quality (Aircraft)1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 106WH

[Mr. Ellwood] Somers and Heuser, and Mackenzie Ross, whom I have mentioned already. That is the sort of evidence that There have been other voices of concern from outside should raise the Minister’s eyebrows and make him the UK. Of course, this is a global issue. More than 10 wake up to the problems that we are facing and the fact years ago, the Australian Senate concluded that there that Governments have successively turned their back was a risk to health and flight safety from exposure to on the issues. The air crew reports show that they suffer contaminated air. If the Minister would like to look from a range of different symptoms, including respiratory, into that, he should look at the investigation the Senate gastro-intestinal and neuro-behavioural problems. However, carried out in 2000. The German Parliament took only little can be concluded from work on small, self-selected weeks to conclude that inhaling heated engine oil products samples, other than that further research is warranted. was not safe. If the Minister has not already seen it, I urge him to Clear evidence demonstrates that there is a design watch the video documentary called “Welcome Aboard fault in passenger aircraft that puts passengers and crew Toxic Airlines,” which was put together by Captain at risk from fumes, yet the CAA and the Government Tristan Loraine, who is chairman of the Global Cabin continue to allow that situation to go unchecked. It is Air Quality Executive. He has been a pilot for 19 years worth recognising who pays for the CAA; it does a and he has spent seven years researching the subject. If wonderful job in some respects, but let us not forget that the Minister does not know Captain Loraine, I shall be it receives its financial support from the airlines, so the happy to introduce him. I am sure that a copy of the CAA is not necessarily the best organisation to make a video can be supplied. The documentary prompted a judgment on whether there is a problem with TCP. BBC “Panorama” follow-up and I understand that Let us take a look at other parts of the industry that another film is on the way. The issue is not disappearing have commented on the matter. BAE Systems has said: and I hope the Minister will recognise that. The risks in planes are being ignored. We need honest “With the weight of human evidence and suffering, which is quite clear, there must be something there…There is absolutely no research and a serious recognition that aerotoxic syndrome doubt in our mind that there is a general health issue here.” can affect pilots. Incidents of contaminated air events on commercial aircraft are difficult to quantify because That is from the people who make the aircraft. they do not have air quality monitoring systems on The CAA commissioned the Defence Science and board. That means there is no way to judge the problem Technology Laboratory to examine contaminated cabin because the filter measuring systems are not in place. air supply ducts removed from two BAe 146 aircraft. It There is an irony in relation to that because Federal concluded that the chemicals that enter the aircraft Aviation Administration regulation 2002 states: were unlikely to be of sufficient concentration to cause “FAA rulemaking has not kept pace with public expectation ill health. It just plucked two cylinders off two aircraft and concern about air quality and does not afford explicit protection and decided there was nothing to find. We must understand from particulate matter and other chemical and biological hazards”. that these incidents occur when a sudden push of toxins In effect, the FAA is saying that all aircraft should have comes from the engine. It is not simply a matter of some form of measuring facility on board. I am not taking two cylinders at random and saying, “Well, that’s aware of any aircraft that have that, so the Government the judgment we are making for the entire aircraft are already in violation of their own rules. The Minister industry.” also needs to address that matter. The report accepted that there were more than 40 An organisation in another part of the industry that different chemicals contained in oil breakdown products, has commented on the problem is Rolls-Royce, which for which there are no published toxicology data. That has acknowledged: means the CAA is making a judgment and an assessment “Any oil leaking from an engine, entering the aircraft customer about something when it cannot even put a yardstick bleed offtake, is classified as hazardous”. next to it. If it does not know about the 40 different That is a comment from the engine maker itself. One chemicals and what they might do, surely it should ask small movement in the right direction has, in fact, come whether it is possible to do some more research and find from one of the main companies that produces the oils out a bit more about what happens to those toxins. The for the aircraft company. A French oil company has CAA should not simply say, “Well, the things we do conceded that oils are dangerous if they are inhaled, know about don’t affect humans, but we are just going and that they can cause respiratory problems and affect to push the things we don’t know about to one side.” the growth of small babies and so on. That is a minor Of course, air crews argue that the data are meaningless step in the right direction, but there is an awfully long because they were not collected during a contaminated waytogo. air event, which, as I said, is when a sudden surge of I ask the Minister to recognise the scale of the toxins comes into the aircraft and levels of chemicals problem and not to look at it as a case of liability. Those may be higher. Obviously, there is also a question about who have suffered from illnesses are not looking for the validity of exposure standards currently used to some form of compensation. Yes, of course, they are determine what constitutes safe concentrations. Again, angry at the system and they are angry at the Government the CAA, rather than an independent body, is examining for not doing anything about it. However, they just the matter. want planes that are safe and for people not to have to It would be fair to say that no proper studies have go through the same pain that they have gone through. been conducted to date and that those that have been It would not require an awful lot of money to include done typically involved questionnaire surveys conducted filters or air monitoring systems on aircraft. Those are by air crew, or clinical examinations of small self-selected the positive steps that many people—pilots, passengers samples of air crew. I urge the Minister to read some of and so on—are calling for from the Government. They the papers by Michaelis, Winder, Coxon, Harper, Burdon, want the Government to confirm that that is the direction 107WH Air Quality (Aircraft)1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 108WH they want to take. They do not want the Government to on the direction that the airline industry should take. say, “Right, let’s get the industry to admit liability” and They should decide whether a redesign of the aircraft is then go through the whole legal rigmarole of compensation. required, or whether filtering systems need to be put in I wish to make it clear that those affected by TCP do to make engines safer. not want that; they just want the Government to wake I have spoken for a good 20 minutes on this subject, up and recognise the changes that are required. and I apologise to hon. Members who wish to speak. There have been some investigations by the Department However, the debate is overdue and serious, and the for Transport and, indeed, the Department of Health. Minister has some questions to answer. I have raised In 2000, the Department for Transport asked the Committee various issues. If he is unable to provide answers today, on Toxicity to look at these issues. I am sure that the I should be grateful if he could write to me, because I Minister will probably lean heavily on its report in his intend to pursue the matter most vigorously. I do not rebuff. In the last couple of years, the committee has believe that we can end a debate in Westminster Hall, come back with a follow-up report. The committee’s pat ourselves on the back and say, “Yes, we have dealt final assessment was that more research was needed. with the issue. We can now move on to something else.” The Minister may well pluck another quote from the We need change in the industry, and we need to understand report that says this, that or the other, but the bottom exactly what is going wrong. We need to ensure that line is that a couple of years ago, the COT said that when people get on an aircraft, they feel safe. more research was needed. I am pleased to see that the Minister is nodding because that means he recognises that. I hope we will perhaps hear today what research 2.51 pm will be done, because obviously there are questions to Mr. John Maples (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): My hon. be asked. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) The COT also recommended that two types of study has laid out most of the case that, had I been in his be commissioned: the exposure monitoring study, position, I would have laid out. I am grateful to him for which is the on-board monitoring of air quality on a instituting this debate. number of aircraft, and the further investigation of I wish to add a couple of points. I got involved with neuropsychological functioning in pilots via a cross-sectional this subject two or three years ago because a constituent epidemiological study using proxy measures of exposure, of mine, John Hoyte, one of the founders of the Aerotoxic such as type of aircraft flown. That is a very complicated Association, came to see me about it. Since then, I have way of saying that we need to understand the health had a great deal of correspondence with various parts and welfare of pilots a little better when they are flying of the Government and various parts of the industry. aircraft. My constituent lost his licence on medical grounds The Department for Transport commissioned Cranfield while working for Flybe but is now in the process of university to undertake the exposure monitoring study. trying to get it back. He is convinced that, in essence, oil That was not done through a process of competitive fumes poisoned him. Organophosphates were found in tender; the contract was simply awarded to Cranfield. his blood, as they have been in the blood of many other Will the Minister explain why the study was not put out pilots who are convinced that they have been affected by to tender and why it was given to an organisation that the same problem. might be considered sympathetic to the industry? To I do not remember how long ago it was—perhaps date, the Department for Transport has refused to some of my colleagues do—but there was a terrible commission a cross-sectional neuropsychological study. problem with sheep dip affecting people. The problem That was the second aspect of the COT’s request, but it was caused by organophosphates, which we know are a has not happened. I hope that the Government will terrible poison. Organophosphates are awful neurotoxins wake up to that. which cause serious neurological problems if they get What can the Government do? They need to stop into one’s blood. I have seen some medical evidence, burying their head in the sand and wake up to the and Dr. Mackenzie Ross’s study, which is due to be responsibility of office. That is exactly what Governments completed soon—if it is not by now complete—is looking should do. They should also be able to make tough at cases. I would be interested if the Minister brought us decisions that might have major consequences for powerful up to date on that. sectors of industry—in this case, the airline industry. Since becoming involved with this issue, I have had First, the Government should recognise that the problem correspondence, mainly with the Department for Transport exists and that the Department for Transport has taken and the Committee on Toxicity, about the Cranfield no steps to ensure that passengers and crew are informed study. What disturbs me about it is how long it has about the possibilities of being exposed to contaminated taken; no doubt the Minister will update us on that. If it air. has reported in the past few days—it is due to report—and Secondly, the Government should conduct a proper I missed it, I apologise, but I do not think it has. In inquiry, and collate proper evidence and data via air- January, I was told that it was about half complete but monitoring systems on board passenger aircraft so that that the other half had to be commissioned from someone we know exactly which chemicals are entering the aircraft else. I hope that that has been done. during a contaminated air event, and in what quantity. It is not the most complicated thing to investigate the At present, the incidence of contaminated air events is air going into the cabins of airliners. I understand that a hard to determine, as I said. Air crew state that under- German device measures any toxins in the fumes in reporting is common due to fears about job security aeroplanes. I am not sure why this is taking so long. I and so on. have consistently found in correspondence a resistance Thirdly, very much based on the outcome of those even to acknowledging that there is a problem or reports, the Government should make some firm decisions the possibility of one. I could understand that view on 109WH Air Quality (Aircraft)1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 110WH

[Mr. John Maples] Indeed, the issue predates my involvement. I note that my colleague Lord Tyler, who was then the Member the part of the airlines—it would be a huge issue for for North Cornwall, raised the matter in a debate in the them to replace the air pressurisation systems on aircraft House on 28 June 2000. On that occasion, speaking if that proves necessary. The problem seems to occur about the use of organophosphates as a lubricant in more often in one or two models of aircraft than in aircraft engines, he referred specifically to the BAe 146, others. My hon. Friend’s point about the new Boeing an aircraft that presents a particular problem and about not having this system makes one wonder if Boeing did which there have been many complaints. He stated that not realise there was a problem and that it should “the House will recognise that the issue is important. The health perhaps deal with it, so that at least the planes produced of pilots, crew and passengers could be affected…I find alarming in the next 30 years could not be accused of poisoning the apparent complacency of the United Kingdom authorities. pilots and passengers. We have known for some time that those potentially lethal chemicals are used as lubricants in aircraft engines—not only fixed-wing I am interested in where the Cranfield and Mackenzie aircraft but in helicopters…Ministers still show the most extraordinary Ross studies are. I understand that they deal with the and breathtaking complacency.”—[Official Report, 28 June 2000; two aspects of the problem: the medical evidence, and Vol. 352, c. 205-206WH.] the question of whether fumes are entering aircraft That was in 2000, yet here we are in 2009 having not ventilation systems. “Obstructive” would be too strong made much progress on solving a serious matter. a word, but I have found an unwillingness to engage constructively in argument on the part of the DFT, the The issue has been raised by Members across the Civil Aviation Authority, the Committee on Toxicity, House. It was raised by the hon. Member for Canterbury the air accidents investigation branch of the CAA and (Mr. Brazier) in written questions that he has tabled. I even, surprisingly, the British Air Line Pilots Association. have tabled questions, as have Labour Members such as I do not know why BALPA has not taken a more the hon. Members for Stroud (Mr. Drew), for Thurrock aggressive interest in the matter. After all, it is the pilots’ (Andrew Mackinlay) and others. An early-day motion union. One would have thought that this issue would be on the issue was signed by 72 Members last year. The one of its prime responsibilities, but it seems reluctant Government cannot be under any illusion that this is not only to engage in correspondence but, as I said, not regarded as a serious matter on both sides of the even to admit that there may be a problem. House. Therefore, it is particularly disappointing that we are still waiting for real progress to be made. I hope that I am not right in thinking that there has been obstruction. There certainly has been an unwillingness While we wait for progress to be made, we still have to talk about the problem. My hon. Friend has picked the prevalence of incidents. In 2007, 116 contaminated an appropriate moment to have this debate. If the two air events were reported to the Civil Aviation Authority. studies are not in the Minister’s hands, they are about to The number of cases reported annually is rising. In be, and I have no doubt that he will bring us up to date 2006, it was 109—there were 78 in 2005. There are more on them. complaints about some aircraft than others, which supports the point made earlier. It seems that some aircraft are We really need to know definitively whether there is a more disposed to the problem than others. The Boeing problem with aircraft ventilation systems, whether it is 757 was involved in 43 such cases, out of 109, in 2006; causing the medical conditions that pilots are reporting, and the BAe 146, of which fewer exist, was involved in and, if so, what needs to be done. Alternatively, if the 17 incidents—the second highest number of any aircraft. conditions are being caused by something else, we need to get to the bottom of that. There seems to be a great The Government, in a previous incarnation as the deal of substantial evidence backed up by too many Department for the Environment, Transport and the “coincidences” for this to be an accident and there to be Regions, stated on 21 January 2000 that nothing in it. “fumes from the engines can only enter the aircraft cabin if an I look forward to the Minister’s bringing us up to engine seal fails, which is a very rare event—around one failure for every 22,000 flights.” date on the matter, and I hope we will get from the Government timely and constructive progress in dealing That was the Government’s official position in 2000, with the problem and bringing the studies to a conclusion. but the Minister’s predecessor—now the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the hon. Member for Poplar and Canning Town 2.55 pm (Jim Fitzpatrick)—stated on 6 May 2009: Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I congratulate the hon. “There are however occasional bad smells or ‘fume events’ Member for Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) on during flights, which are estimated to occur on approximately introducing this debate on an important matter. I agree 0.05 per cent. of flights overall (one in 2000).”—[Official Report, with virtually everything that he said. I apologise for 6 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 192W.] being 55 seconds late and not arriving for the beginning So we have gone from one in 22,000 to one in 2,000. of his remarks. One wonders how much further that statistic will drop This is a serious issue. It is worth putting on the before there is action to deal with the points in question. record that it has, in fact, been raised many times in this Research by the German or Swiss broadcaster that House with successive Ministers by Members of all the hon. Member for Bournemouth, East mentioned parties. The problem with contaminated air in aircraft suggests that contaminated air was present in 28 out of stays while Ministers move on—upwards, outwards and 30 tested cabins. Furthermore, 106 Boeing 757 pilots sideways—at a bewildering rate. Many of us who have surveyed reported more than 1,660 incidents during campaigned on the issue for some time find ourselves their careers, many of which were thought to be associated trying to explain to new Ministers the same problem with contaminated air. A similar survey of 250 current that we have explained to previous ones. and retired British BAe 146 pilots found that 85 per 111WH Air Quality (Aircraft)1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 112WH cent. believed that they were breathing contaminated I hope he will tell us that there should be an open air while flying. More than half of them—an enormous inquiry into this issue, because the public at large, and number of pilots—reported symptoms of ill health the pilots in particular, want to be confident that it is relating to air contamination, and nearly one in 10 had being seriously addressed. We need an open forum of to be retired on health grounds. An enormous toll is some sort—I would hesitate to use a public inquiry as a being taken on professional people, with seemingly little forum—with opportunity for cross-examination, whereby being done about it. people can test the theories, put forward their views and There have been incidents elsewhere in the world. In scrutinise those taking decisions and making assumptions May 2009, a former flight attendant won civil damages on our behalf. for respiratory damage, having been exposed to My colleague Lord Tyler asked a parliamentary question contaminated air, in the case of Turner v. Eastwest in the other place on 20 February 2007: Airlines Ltd. In October 2007, staff at Flybe refused to board the company’s fleet of BAe 146 aircraft, saying “Whether the Department for Transport will participate in that poor air quality was putting them and their passengers research on cabin air quality by the United States Federal Aviation at risk. That came about after two stewardesses collapsed Administration.” during a flight and all seven crew members had to be Lord Bassam, answering for the Government, indicated taken to hospital. Flybe subsequently announced that it that the Department was would phase out BAe 146s for commercial reasons. That seems to be the nearest thing to what might be “discussing with the Federal Aviation Administration…the possibility of collaborative research.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 20 called an out-of-court settlement. I agree with hon. February 2007; Vol. 689, c. WA215.] Members’ comments on how interesting it is that we are now adopting a new form of producing air for cabins Can the Minister give any further information on the or, perhaps, reverting to what was originally there before collaboration that clearly was under way, or at least bleed air was introduced in the 1960s. under consideration, back in February 2007? There is no question but that this is a serious matter. Let me raise two other matters relating to cabin air The Government have said that they recognise there is quality that are entirely different to the substantive an issue, and I do not wish to suggest that they are being matter we are discussing. First, under an international less helpful than they are, because they have been willing aviation agreement, insecticides are sprayed in the cabin to engage and have answered parliamentary questions. I on flights from particular countries, presumably to kill met the Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for off insects that may be brought into this country or Poplar and Canning Town, along with Lord Tyler and elsewhere. Having done quite a lot of work on pesticides, the Countess of Mar. I believe that Ministers are genuinely I do not regard that as a safe procedure. One of the first concerned about this matter and are taking it forward, issues that I ever took up as a campaigner was pesticides, but I hope they get the message from today’s debate that and that is one reason why I am in politics. It does not they are not taking it forward far enough or fast enough. seem entirely safe for large amounts of insecticide to be People are at risk as we speak, including pilots, passengers sprayed in a plane before it lands, sometimes over food, and crew. I am dismayed that it is taking such a long irrespective of whether children are present, with no time to get the results of studies that the Government proper warning or safeguards in place and in a confined have instigated. atmosphere. I should like the Minister to tell me now or I asked the Minister’s predecessor on 6 May why the in writing what assessment has been made of the potential research project on cabin air quality had been allocated health implications of that practice, not necessarily for to Cranfield. I say “allocated” because no European a fully healthy person but for a vulnerable person with Union public procurement procedures seem to have previous exposure to pesticides. The first time I went on been invoked on that occasion. He replied: a long-distance flight and experienced that, I had no “The research project was tendered under the single tender pre-knowledge of it. Someone who is vulnerable to procedure and approved in April 2007. Due to the complex pesticides—insecticides—through exposure to them on logistics and the need for a project manager to develop protocols, farms, for example, and has lost resistance to them this research could not be specified as a normal tender. Following could be sprayed without their knowledge. That is worrying. the tender, Cranfield university was chosen by the Department, in I would grateful if the Minister took up that issue. consultation with the Department of Health, the Civil Aviation Authority, BALPA (largest pilot trade union) and airlines.”—[Official My second point concerns air quality on board for Report, 6 May 2009; Vol. 492, c. 193W.] individuals who require extra oxygen for health reasons. Although that may be a realistic exercise, eyebrows The Minister may be aware that airlines have vastly would be raised if it were not tendered. An explanation differing practices regarding allowing oxygen on board. has been given, but I hope that the Minister accepts I have had representations on this matter from the that, because of the long delays—not necessarily since British Lung Foundation and others, who are concerned the project was allocated, although there have been at the wide variations in practice across the industry. delays since then—going back to 2000 and beyond, There is even resistance from some airlines to anyone which I have mentioned, there appears to be an element bringing on board extra oxygen at all, even if they pay of playing for time on somebody’s part until aircraft are for it themselves. A person’s requirement for extra phased out and the problem goes away.I do not necessarily oxygen is effectively a disability, and we should not be wish to suggest that that is absolutely the case, because I discriminating against people with such a health need. I cannot prove it. Nevertheless, putting the circumstances should like the Minister to ensure that there is a process together, one gets circumstantial evidence that suggests whereby airlines supply extra oxygen to those who there may be some element of truth in my assumption. identify themselves as needing it; or, at least, to ensure I hope that the Minister will tell us what is happening that no obstacle is put in their way if they wish to bring with the Cranfield study, including when it will report. extra oxygen on board. 113WH Air Quality (Aircraft)1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 114WH

3.8 pm Dr. Mackenzie Ross has argued that the incidence of Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con): It is an honour contaminated-air events on commercial and military to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, aircraft is difficult to quantify because of the lack of Dr. McCrea. monitoring systems. I do not want to repeat everything that my hon. Friend said, but the study that he quoted is I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for significant. In 2003, the British Airline Pilots Association Bournemouth, East (Mr. Ellwood) on making a typically said that only 61 out of 1,667 contaminated-air events well-researched, thorough speech. In securing the debate, were recorded. In other words, only about 4 per cent. of he has done us all a favour and has given us an opportunity incidents were making the records, for all the reasons to focus on something that a number of hon. Members thathegave. have been concerned about for a long time. As a pilot, he has brought particular knowledge to the subject. We The Minister should set up an awareness campaign have had a good short debate, including a contribution among aircrew to look at the dangers of air contamination by my hon. Friend the Member for Stratford-on-Avon and at how to report contamination events. I will be (Mr. Maples). I also enjoyed listening to the hon. Member making a number of other points, but that is one of the for Lewes (Norman Baker). I share the genuine concern most basic. Aircrew—I hope that the union will show of my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East some leadership on this—should be actively encouraged about the contamination of air supply to commercial to report problems. I would also like to know what steps aircraft cabins. the Minister will take to ensure that passengers are I pay tribute to the campaign by the Global Cabin informed when they have been exposed to a contamination Air Quality Executive for raising awareness of the issue, event. and in particular to Captain Tristan Loraine, whom my Unlike in a building, passengers in the pressurised hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth, East cabin of a plane are totally dependent on the air supplied mentioned, and to Captain Susan Michaelis, who have by the plane once the doors have been closed—obviously, done so much to raise the profile of this issue in the they cannot open a window. Today, that always means public spectrum. The campaign is made up of professional bleed air from the main engine. In most aircraft, air is pilots and is assisted by scientific experts who are well bled off at a temperature of at least 400° C. It then goes placed to research and comment on the matter, one of through a heat exchanger and ductwork before being whom—Dr. Sarah Mackenzie Ross—figured in my hon. delivered to a manifold, where it is mixed with re-circulated Friend’s speech. air. I am told that the heat exchanger and ductwork in The campaign argues that a number of pilots have most aircraft are never cleaned and that no regime is in been severely brain-damaged by cabin air pollution, place to ensure that airlines do such work—indeed, and that the lives of passengers and crews are being put there is no regime or regulation in place even to establish at risk, as my hon. Friend set out in some detail. whether airlines do it. Even the air conditioning systems Dr. Mackenzie Ross considered those issues in her in a decent hotel room are subject to a regime of filter studies and specifically looked at flight crews, not only changes and duct cleaning, and people in a hotel room because they are more frequently exposed and therefore can open the window. principally at risk, so we are more likely to see effects Everyone present will agree that air supply needs to among them, but because of the obvious point that the be safe. It is widely recognised that all aircraft are lives of everyone on board a modern aeroplane would subject, to some extent, to occasional engine oil leaks, be put at risk if the pilot was seriously affected or, worse but certain types are subject to many more, and my hon. still, if the pilot and the co-pilot were seriously affected Friend picked out the BAe 146 and the Boeing 757. The at the same time. CAA database for 2004 recorded that 72 flights experienced When simulators are used to investigate the decisions contaminated air, although the low reporting rate, to taken by flight-deck crew, factors such as tiredness are which we have all alluded, suggests that up to 2,000 sometimes assessed, but there are no tests to establish flights in the UK may have experienced contaminated-air what happens when the quality of decision making is events in that year. It is clear that the process by which deliberately downgraded. If that is the case, and that is air is delivered to the cabins of commercial airliners is what I have heard from the industry, it suggests that potentially flawed. It does not guarantee the quality of different sectors have different approaches. Most people air for breathing, and no mechanisms appear to be in believe that being a pilot is more difficult than being a place even to monitor air quality, let alone to ensure driver, but a number of organisations, including the that air is safe. Institute of Advanced Motorists, have done extensive tests on drivers, subjecting them to a variety of things Such issues are increasingly recognised. My hon. that would impair their decision making, such as large Friend referred to Boeing’s decision on the 787—the quantities of alcohol or having to talk on a mobile so-called Dreamliner—and it is interesting to look at phone while driving a difficult route. what Boeing said about it. Boeing was invited by the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee to Dr. Mackenzie Ross has found that cabin air is sometimes make a submission and it did so in writing. It said: contaminated with hydraulic fluids and synthetic jet oils, which contain the chemicals described by my hon. “The Boeing 787 will have a no-bleed architecture for the Friend. Those chemicals are potentially highly neurotoxic outside air supply to the cabin. This architecture eliminates the and are, as he said, found in a variety of other sources, risk of engine oil decomposition products…being introduced in the cabin supply air”. including agricultural chemicals. Most famously, they were also behind Gulf war syndrome. In 2007, about The fact that the world’s biggest aircraft manufacturer 350 UK aircrew advised their union that they may be takes that view provides compelling evidence that there suffering physical and psychological ill health following is an issue to address. My hon. Friend also mentioned exposure to contaminated air. Rolls-Royce, which, as far back as 2003, said: 115WH Air Quality (Aircraft)1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 116WH

“Any oil leaking from an engine, entering the aircraft customer The other issue that the hon. Gentleman mentioned bleed offtake, is classified as hazardous”. is oxygen on flights, and it is a serious concern. I draw Another independent expert on the subject, who the Minister’s attention to the fact that the early-day comes from the opposite side of the world, is the Royal motion has attracted more than 200 signatures. There is Australian air force’s head of aviation medicine research, a legitimate point to consider. A safe air supply for Dr. Singh Bhupinder. He has spoken out at international people who require oxygen must involve the presence of conferences, making it clear that he, too, believes there cylinders to top up their need for greater concentration. is a real issue to address. I hope that the Minister will update us on that. Will the Minister confirm what steps the Government Contamination of aircraft cabins by engine oil fumes are taking in conjunction with the CAA to ensure that is a serious aviation safety concern for both aircrew and the passenger air supply on aeroplanes operates at a passengers. There is significant evidence to warrant safe level of toxicity? Everybody in the Chamber recognises going beyond just a bit more study to get to the bottom that the airline industry is struggling, and it is worrying of the matter. I hope that the Government will today to see the country’s national airline appeal to staff to make it clear that they will urgently and thoroughly work without pay, while a whole string of small, struggling investigate the problem so that the necessary steps to airports, many of which are highly geared, are on the make crew and passengers safe on our aeroplanes are edge financially. I am the last person to want to put taken. extra burdens on a struggling industry at such a time, but the fact is that people’s lives and the long-term 3.22 pm health of crew members are at stake. It is therefore The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport strange that the Department for Transport has done (Paul Clark): It is a pleasure to serve under your little quality research on the subject. chairmanship, Dr. McCrea, in this important debate, When the Department asked the Committee on and I congratulate the hon. Member for Bournemouth, Toxicity—an independent body that advises the East (Mr. Ellwood) on securing it. The issue is serious, Government, including, incidentally, the Department and I say that genuinely. However, we must talk about for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on agricultural facts and real evidence, and there has been an awful lot issues—to review all the available evidence, the committee of speculation in some of the contributions. I want to was unable to arrive at firm conclusions. As my hon. answer hon. Members’ questions as clearly as possible, Friend said, however, it recommended further research and to show that this country has been at the forefront to determine what substances are released via the bleed in taking forward some of the current work. Bearing in air system and whether exposure to those substances mind the depth of knowledge of some hon. Members, I could result in acute or chronic ill health. The committee am sure that they are well aware of that. I will explain recommended two types of study: first, an exposure where we are, and answer as many questions as clearly monitoring study, with on-board monitoring of air and thoroughly as I can. quality on a number of aircraft; and, secondly, further Air quality in commercial passenger aircraft is high, investigation of neuropsychological functioning in pilots and much of the information that we have heard today via a cross-sectional epidemiological study using proxy would be worrying for anyone who is thinking of travelling measures of exposure. on a plane. To put the matter into perspective, the hon. My hon. Friend and the hon. Member for Lewes Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) referred to numbers mentioned the Department giving the first study to and said that the Government had reduced the number Cranfield university. Cranfield has an excellent record, of events from one in 22,000 to one in 2,000. The and I do not want to be critical of it, but it is very nearly Committee on Toxicity estimated in 2007 that fume an in-house organisation. Indeed, its staff include quite events occurred in approximately 0.05 per cent. of flights, a number of Government employees, including quite a or one in 2,000. In 2008, 97 contaminated air events lot of uniformed people—indeed, my father-in-law worked were reported to the CAA under the mandatory occurrence there at one point. There is therefore a legitimate concern reporting scheme from 1.2 million passenger and cargo that simply giving the study to Cranfield, rather than flights by UK carriers. putting it out to competitive tender, raises serious questions Of the 97 reported occurrences of contaminated air over whether the investigation is independent. To date, by aircraft type, 38 were on a Boeing 757, 19 were on an the Department for Transport has refused to commission Airbus 319, and six were on an Airbus 320. Some hon. the second study—the cross-sectional neuropsychological Members referred to British Aerospace’s BAe 146, and study—but the Minister may be able to update us on there were two reported occurrences in 2008 for that that. Will he tell us why the first study could not be put aircraft. They asked why such fume events happen, and out to competitive tender, and where we have got to on why nothing has been done in any shape or form. the second study? Mechanical system malfunctions occur and may result The hon. Member for Lewes asked about co-operation in abnormal operating conditions, but the CAA has with the FAA, and I repeat the question. I have had taken remedial action to help operators of specific complaints from people involved in the campaign that aircraft to reduce the incidence of fume events, such as we have dragged our feet in co-operating with the FAA engine oil servicing procedures and engine sealing when Britain could have made a significant difference. modifications. Those are some of the steps that have been taken to help the industry and those who work on The hon. Member for Brighton— planes and travel by air. It is essential to ensure that health and safety provisions for both categories of Norman Baker: Lewes. Brighton is a suburb of Lewes. people are of the highest level. I recognise the concern that has been raised, but we Mr. Brazier: Indeed; like Newcastle and Gateshead. must have evidence, and we have undertaken work on 117WH Air Quality (Aircraft)1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 118WH

[Paul Clark] Mr. Ellwood: With respect to the Minister, we have ample time in which to debate these issues. I am pleased that. I assure everyone who is listening to our debate that he is taking interventions, but there is still another and those who read Hansard that it is not a proven fact half hour to go—plenty of time for us to debate. He has that cabin air harms health. Hon. Members rightly said spent 10 minutes arguing about statistics, and they can that work on that should be done and should continue, be read in different ways. He began his remarks by and I intend to show that it is being done, and that we saying that this is a serious issue. I would like to move have the highest quality of studies. on to the action points—what he intends to do—and I think that he wants to move on to that, too. Norman Baker: The Minister said that there is no On the point that he is making now, however, does he proof that cabin air causes problems. Does he think agree that, rather than depending entirely on whether a that stewardesses and pilots collapsing with brain damage pilot comes forward to make a report, it is time that we is a coincidence? had a monitoring system to measure the quality of air on aircraft? That would be an independent way of Paul Clark: The hon. Gentleman is well aware that I checking whether the toxins are making it on board, as am saying that we need evidence to conclude that such opposed to leaning heavily on the reports written by fume events cause those illnesses. I am not suggesting pilots, who might or might not fill out a form. that they have not happened, but to ensure that they do Paul Clark: I am delighted to say that that is exactly not happen again, we must know exactly what causes what I want to move on to, which is why I did not them. That is why research is necessary. It is complex particularly want to give way again. I do want to get to research and it is being done as we speak. some of the substance of the debate, to which the hon. Mr. Brazier: To return to the Minister’s figures, he Gentleman referred. However, the reporting procedures said that approximately 100 events were recorded in a have to be one of the first stages of dealing with the year. Several of us mentioned the study that suggested issue, which we all agree is important and needs that only 4 per cent. of events are recorded, but if the investigation. We cannot allow the reporting system to average number of passengers on the aircraft on which be undermined in a way that suggests that it is not such events took place was 150, 15,000 passengers robust. That is why I wanted to deal with that at the would be affected. If 4 per cent. of those are reported, outset. 25 x 15,000 is about one third of a million passengers Most modern commercial aircraft are fitted with affected in a single year. That does not mean that all high efficiency particulate air—HEPA—filters, which were brain damaged, but it provides an idea of the scale are extremely efficient at removing airborne contaminants of what we are talking about, especially as no one such as droplets, bacteria and large viral particles. Typically, denies the link between organophosphates and brain the air in the cabin is exchanged every two to three damage. minutes. This is the only country that I know of in which there is a general duty to safeguard the health of Paul Clark: The hon. Gentleman is right in saying persons aboard aircraft. Our commercial aviation safety that no one denies that link, but 97 reported occurrences record is second to none. That is a hard-won reputation, does not mean that they led to x, y or z occurrences of and it has been won by all players in the industry and all illness or disease. The jump to the calculations that he staff who work in the industry. As I said, we are the only just made about 15,000 passengers being affected and country in the world with a duty to safeguard the health so on is a big leap. I am sure that we all want to make of persons on board aircraft—the health of the travelling certain that the evidence exists, so that we can ensure passengers as well as employees. The Civil Aviation Act that if there is a problem, we can take the necessary 2006 amended the Civil Aviation Act 1982 to charge the steps to eradicate it, but again, that is not straightforward. Secretary of State with “the general duty of organising, carrying out and encouraging Mr. Ellwood: Will the Minister give way? measures for safeguarding the health of persons on board aircraft.” The functions of the CAA were also amended to include Paul Clark: Let me make some headway and I will the health of persons on board aircraft. That change is give way shortly. I want to deal with this issue. There a world first, as far as we know, and was welcomed by seems to be a suggestion that people are not reporting Parliament. It follows that we take the issues of safety incidents because they do not want to rock the boat. and air quality in passenger planes extremely seriously. Well, the mandatory occurrence reporting scheme— We have a good story to tell on the research that we MORS—was established in 1976. It is regarded worldwide have put in hand to try to get to the bottom of cabin air as a safety reporting model and is used in many other fume events. Occasionally there are bad smells or fume areas. It exists to ensure that the CAA is advised of events, as they are referred to, during flights, and those hazardous or potentially hazardous incidents and defects. have been reported on a number of aircraft types that In addition, even if what hon. Members have alluded to are used around the world. That is a valid point: we is the case and employees will not report incidents, there must remember that this is not a UK-only matter. It is a confidential reporting line to the CAA, which is raises issues that we need to take into account. Reports called CHIRP—the confidential human factors incident to the CAA show that sometimes one pilot reports a reporting programme. That is for those who do not bad smell and the other detects nothing. An unpleasant want to let their employer know that they are reporting smell is undesirable but does not necessarily harm health. such an occurrence. It would therefore be wrong to say That is partly the point that I was making to the hon. that the reporting system does not help employees to Member for Canterbury (Mr. Brazier). Conversely, carbon report occurrences. It does. That facility exists through monoxide has no smell, yet it kills people in their homes both MORS and the confidential route. every year. 119WH Air Quality (Aircraft)1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 120WH

Pilots who have experienced fume events report a Mr. Maples: Has the Minister moved on from the variety of short or long-term symptoms of ill health, toxicity study? If so, will he tell us when it is expected to but it is not certain that those symptoms are work-related. report? People are anxious to know. They are grateful Reports of those events are very infrequent. As I said, that the study is taking place, but they want to know the figures for 2008 show that there were 97 reported when they will receive the answers. contaminated air fume events. That is out of 1.2 million flights. Paul Clark: The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. I have indicated that the work is continuing; it is So what has been done, bearing in mind the small being done in conjunction with specific airlines, which number of fume events? First, we commissioned the have offered to help with the study. That work is being independent Committee on Toxicity—a panel made up undertaken now. We expect it to continue for the majority of toxicologists from various universities, not Government of the year, and then to be written up. It will then be stooges. They completed a substantial review of evidence peer-tested, unless there is anything of particular alarm. in September 2007 and concluded that the evidence It has to be peer-tested for the reasons that I gave. We available did not establish a link between cabin air and expect the report to be published in the early part of pilot ill health, nor did it rule one out. We have therefore next year. begun innovative research to investigate concerns about I should explain the work undertaken by Professor potential contaminants in cabin air and to try to fill the van Netten at the university of British Columbia. We gap in knowledge identified by the Committee on Toxicity. wrote to the professor, asking for further information Again, we are leading the world in that work. on whether the samples were taken with the airlines’ No one has previously captured samples of cabin air authority and transported in sterile conditions to guarantee during normal conditions and fume events and analysed that they were free of extraneous contamination. He them to see what substances they contain and in what replied: concentrations. The science is difficult, because fume “I have no further information…Most importantly, however, events are unpredictable and can last only a couple of accurate in-flight air concentration measurements are needed. minutes—if that, in some cases. We have that research Only then can a proper assessment be made if TCP exposure is indeed a problem or can be eliminated.” in hand as a priority. To date, we have commissioned functionality tests to identify equipment capable of That is precisely what we are seeking to achieve with the capturing fume events in real time. The report was current research project. published on 21 February 2008. We are now confident The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East cited studies that we have the equipment that will do the job. We have from Germany and Australia that concluded that the begun a more substantive phase of in-flight functionality air was contaminated. I am not aware that Australian tests to assemble data on the substances in the cabin air or German airlines have banned any of those aircraft. during fume events. That work builds on the equipment Again, the evidence to date is not robust or clear and methodology tested in the first phase. Several airlines enough to convince the regulator. volunteered to take part by allowing an independent scientist to come on board with sampling equipment. Mr. Ellwood: I am saddened by the direction taken by Testing began in 2008 and is continuing in 2009. the Minister. He seems to be trying to knock away every bit of evidence that has been put to him. He is right to The tests to identify suitable scientific equipment say that the tests are difficult to do on planes and that capable of capturing fume events were peer-reviewed by they cannot be done in laboratory conditions. However, scientists in the UK, Europe and the USA. It is important the point has been made that there is enough evidence that peer review happens. The matter does not pertain to raise eyebrows. For the Minister to lean on a report only to the UK or UK aircraft. It is relevant across the that is not to be published for a couple of years suggests aviation world. Future work in that area will be similarly that the Government are not taking the matter as peer-reviewed before publication. seriously as they should. I posed a firm question to the Minister: I asked whether it was time to install monitoring I shall deal with some of the specific issues raised systems in aircraft. He did not give a reply. I pose the before moving on to other matters. We heard that Flybe same question again. is no longer flying the British Aerospace 146. The company has upgraded its fleet, as all airlines do, for a Paul Clark: The Government are leading world research variety of reasons, not least to stay competitive and to into the very issues that are of concern both to the hon. ensure efficiency. However, it does not say that it was to Gentleman and to me as Minister. We must ensure that do with air contamination. I realise what is being said, we have the evidence, and thus know exactly what the but it was a great leap to suggest that Flybe got rid of its issues are, so that if we find evidence that gives cause for BAE 146 fleet because of contamination. Indeed, I have concern, we can then help and protect those who work already pointed out that the last reported statistics in the industry and those who travel by air. I am sure show only two cases in that time. It is a leap of faith to that the hon. Gentleman accepts that it will have to be say that the company did it purely because of problems based on the evidence. This Government and this country of contamination; that is not the case. are leading that research. He is right that it will not be It is far too premature to draw an analogy with Gulf done be in laboratory conditions. That makes it genuinely war syndrome. A substantial amount of work has yet to more difficult to ensure that we get the systems and be done on that. However, military service is not directly processes needed to get precisely the evidence that he comparable to working in private commercial employment. and I seek. Our primary aim has to be to get evidence of what I express my thanks to those airlines that have made occurs during fume events, to see what contaminates their aircraft, their pilots and their management time are released, and to analyse them. available to the research effort, especially as they have 121WH Air Quality (Aircraft)1 JULY 2009 Air Quality (Aircraft) 122WH

[Paul Clark] already indicated that we are leading the world. The issues are not being ignored, as I hope he will recognise done so free of charge. It is no exaggeration to say that in the light of my comments so far. without that help the work could not have progressed, as sadly was the case in the USA, where such joint Mr. Ellwood: I have a letter from the American Society working was not possible. I assure the House that the of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning Engineers, research is entirely independent of industry. It has been which is one of the main engineering associations in the suggested that it was industry-led, but the Government United States of America, and is very influential in and the taxpayer are paying for it—to the tune of writing quality standards that are then adopted by the approximately £500,000. regulatory authorities. The letter asks Ministers to introduce Cranfield university, the project manager, is actively sensors on to flights. The society, and others in America, engaged on the cabin air sampling programme, and have done a lot of work on this matter, so it would be a about 40 of the planned 100 flights have now been bit disingenuous to say that we are leading the way. If tested by scientists on board. Samples are being taken we were, the report would have been ready for us to by named individuals, who have received special briefing discuss today, and we would be talking about actions, by Cranfield to ensure a consistent methodology and a rather than about when it will be published. This letter, secure chain of custody for delivering the samples to the which I am happy to provide to the Minister, if he has laboratories for analysis. It is likely that this phase of not seen it, requests that sensors to measure toxins be the research will last until the end of the year. The put on to aircraft now. logistics are complex, which is why it cannot be done sooner. Equally, we want to ensure that the work is not Paul Clark: The report will do exactly that necessary open to substantial challenge because procedures and detailed research, in conjunction with the private airlines so on were not followed. with which we are working closely on the monitoring We lost some months recently because of internal work. We are involving their staff, as well as independent, procurement procedures, but those delays were important on-board scientists, in the work that we all want done. in enabling us to test that we were getting value for We accepted, and are now acting on, COT’s money in what are obviously tight departmental research recommendation for further work to be done. The hon. budgets. I am pleased to say that those hurdles have Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Mr. Maples) referred been overcome and that the research continues. to COT and raised various other issues. COT arranged for an independent review to be carried out by Professor The project manager is Professor Helen Muir, an Morris, who is professor of neuropsychology at the aviation safety expert at Cranfield. The project also has Institute of Psychiatry at King’s college hospital. His the support of Cranfield Health and two external report said that the association between flying and laboratories. The research design was overseen by a neuropsychological abnormality steering group, which includes a number of independent occupational hygiene experts, a British Airline Pilots “should be interpreted with great caution because of the small Association pilot and the Health Protection Agency. It sample used”. reports to the aviation health working group, the members He concluded that the study of which include trade union representatives, the Air “cannot suggest a link and equally, it does not rule out a link... In Transport Users Council, the Civil Aviation Authority, order to establish a link there is a need for a much larger study the Department of Health and the Health and Safety taking a randomly selected…sample”. Executive. It is a robust reporting system. We needed an organisation that was familiar with aircraft and with Mr. Brazier: I have huge respect for King’s despite my which airlines would work. That is not what happened son being a medical student there. COT recommended in the USA, where airlines did not make aircraft available that a study be done, but that study has been described for air sampling. It is essential, therefore, to have an as being not big enough to give a proper answer. We organisation that can undertake such complex work. need a large study so that we can find out whether that Once completed, the findings will be peer-reviewed, link exists. before being published as a whole, and I hope that that will be as soon as is practicable. The Chamber will Paul Clark: There is a need in terms of the scale of understand that we are filling a gap in knowledge. requirement. We are working through some of the Fume events are unpredictable and can last less than a requested work and have accepted some of the minute. There are no published studies of air sampling recommendations to which I referred earlier. during fume events. The only way to resolve the issue is I shall address the point about the Boeing 787. Indeed, with top-quality science of a standard necessary to Boeing has designed a new aircraft with no-bleed air, encourage aviation regulators to take the action required. but it has not withdrawn the older models, such as the I am confident that Cranfield will give us the best 757, or required extra filters to be fitted. scientific picture possible in what happens during a fume event. Any regulatory action required will have to be taken, as far as the EU is concerned, by the European Mr. Ellwood: No one has told it to! Aviation Safety Agency. Hon. Members will be aware that EASA will not take any regulatory action without Paul Clark: With due respect— sound evidence, which is why it is critical that our pioneering, world-leading research is robust and responsive. Mr. Ellwood: No one has legislated! The hon. Member for Bournemouth, East claimed that the Government are basically doing nothing. I have Dr. William McCrea (in the Chair): Order. 123WH Air Quality (Aircraft) 1 JULY 2009 124WH

Paul Clark: People working in the industry need Archer Inquiry regulation, to a certain extent, but I do not believe that the hon. Gentleman is suggesting that Boeing is so irresponsible that it would allow planes to fly that could 4pm contaminate passengers, according to his earlier arguments. Jenny Willott (Cardiff, Central) (LD): I am grateful It would be uncharitable to follow that line in suggesting to have secured this debate about the Archer inquiry that regulation is needed to tell it to remove planes that into contaminated blood and blood products. I should he thinks are “lethal”—his word. like to put it on record that I am sincerely grateful to The hon. Member for Lewes asked about a public Lord Archer’s team for its informed and reasoned inquiry. COT, an independent panel, looked into the assessment of the situation. Lord Archer himself did matter. In 2007-08, the issue was revisited by the House not apportion blame. His focus, and mine today, was of Lords Science and Technology Select Committee, the treatment of the victims of this appalling tragedy. which urged the Government to complete the air sampling Some 1,200 patients were infected with HIV and research, which we are doing. I am not convinced that a 4,670 with hepatitis C as a result of NHS treatment in third public inquiry would take us much further forward. the 1970s and 1980s. Many of those patients were On non-co-operation with the USA, we have had a unaware of their infection and went on to infect their number of contacts with the Federal Aviation husbands and wives as well. So far, some 1,800 members Administration about a collaborative effort, but the of the haemophiliac community have died. In the past principal effort is UK-led, because, as I have already few years, many of the survivors have been told that alluded to, no American airlines are participating in the they may have contracted variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob research funded by the FAA. A further point was made disease from infected blood products. about insect spraying, which is done on planes, especially Haydn Lewis, a constituent of mine, has been infected in hot climates. Complaints are occasionally received with hepatitis B and C and HIV. He also infected his from passengers claiming respiratory illness after spraying. wife with HIV before he was aware of his own status. Under 2005 international health regulations, the World His brothers, who are also haemophiliacs, are infected Health Organisation aims to prevent and control as well. Last year, Haydn was informed that he had international spread of disease. Insecticides approved been exposed to VCJD. Moreover, as a result of his by the WHO can be used. hepatitis C, he developed liver cancer and has recently had a liver transplant. Haydn’s health has suffered Norman Baker: Does the Minister accept that it is not massively over the years. He had to give up work early, satisfactory for people not to know what is being sprayed and his entire family has suffered as a result of his when they get on a plane? Will he undertake to ensure condition. His family is just one of thousands across that planes identify what chemicals are used and notify the country. individuals in advance? Will he let me know what they are? When I have asked stewards and stewardesses on Despite the fact that a large number of people have planes, they do not know the active ingredients. If he been affected, there has been a desperate lack of public cannot answer now, he can write to me. debate on the subject. The last debate in the Commons was in 1990, and the last Westminster Hall debate was Paul Clark: That is covered by WHO provisions, nearly 10 years ago. The Department of Health did not guidance and rules. even make an oral statement when it responded to Lord Archer’s report. The level of interest in today’s half-hour The hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for debate demonstrates the need for a much longer debate Canterbury missed a very good debate in this Chamber in Parliament. yesterday on medical oxygen supplies on airlines. I am pleased to say that a number of UK airlines, such as British Airways and Virgin Atlantic, are leading in that Mr. (West Dorset) (Con): Does the field by not charging for oxygen supplies. The matter hon. Lady not agree that what is so extraordinary is that has been raised by, among others, the British Lung the Government do not appear to want to engage with Foundation. As I said here yesterday, that will help to Lord Archer even at this stage? raise awareness of the problem. Individuals will take note of provisions made, but further work needs to be Jenny Willott: That is a very valid point, and I was done. about to mention it. Although Lord Winston described The UK is taking steps to help the world aviation the tragedy as industry to deal with this important issue. However, we “the worst treatment disaster in the history of the national health need to ensure that we have clear evidence before us service”, when doing so. the Government have always argued that a public inquiry would be unjustified and unnecessary. The Archer inquiry was the first public attempt to uncover the truth, but because it was not a statutory inquiry, Lord Archer could not compel witnesses to give evidence and he could not oblige bodies to release documents. The Department of Health even refused to send witnesses to give public evidence to the inquiry.

Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does the hon. Lady agree that whatever the form of the inquiry, what we do not want to do now is launch yet more inquiries or 125WH Archer Inquiry1 JULY 2009 Archer Inquiry 126WH

[Nia Griffith] parliamentary questions even though the Department knew about them. Will the Minister clarify whether waste more time? We need direct help from the Government Lord Archer was aware that so much relevant information for those who have suffered the most from this terrible had not been released when he reported? Moreover, will tragedy. she tell us how many documents have still not been released by the Department? Jenny Willott: It is true that we need to move forward I do not want to apportion blame today. It is more and consider providing decent compensation. However, important to talk about the issue of compensation, given that more documents have been released since the particularly as we have such a short time in which to publication of the report, there is probably a need to debate the subject. The compensation is for victims who hold a further investigation. are still alive and for the widows and families of those who have died. Lord Archer said that the financial Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): On the need for assistance that is currently available is insufficient, and further work, does the hon. Lady not agree that good as recommended that assistance should be on a par with the report was, it was fettered by its focus on the the existing Irish scheme. The Irish tribunal, which was haemophiliac community? For example, one of my set up 12 years ago, assesses each case on an individual constituents, who was treated for the blood disorder basis and then sets out an initial lump sum payment and idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, is being periodic payments thereafter. The main cost in Ireland disadvantaged by that focus. has been the lump sum payment. Between 1997 and 2007, the tribunal awarded ¤566 million to 2,666 people, Jenny Willott: It is true that a number of different which is an average of £150,000 per person per case. groups of patients have been affected. There are also Using the Department’s own figures, a similar scheme people who have been infected with blood products as a in the UK would cost about £50 million a year for the result of blood transfusions. As they are a much smaller lump sum payments in each of the first 10 years. In the group, they often feel that they cannot make their voice scale of the Department of Health budget, that is heard. A wide range of people has been affected for a entirely affordable. I personally think it is the least the number of different reasons. victims deserve. The Department’s response to doubling the annual Lynne Featherstone (Hornsey and Wood Green) (LD): payments to those with HIV is extremely welcome, but I must declare an interest because my nephew is a it is the bare minimum that Lord Archer himself haemophiliac, and he has been infected with hepatitis recommended. Just 350 of the 1,200 haemophiliacs and C. He was forced to carry on taking treatment that was their spouses who were infected with HIV are still alive. not safe long after the Government knew about the The increase in payments to them is only £7 million a infected blood. The manufactured blood product, year, which, although welcome, is a very small amount recombinant, was available only to those under the age of money, and will help only a small number of people. of 16. Any haemophiliac over 16 had to take potentially In contrast, the Department has offered nothing at infected injections. There has been an entrenched resistance all to those with hepatitis C. Of the 4,600 people by the Government to admit what happened in the past. infected with hepatitis C, around 2,500 of them are Now, though, as the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia alive today, so quite a few people are still living with Griffith) said, we must move forward to deal with the that dreadful condition. The Skipton Fund, which was issue in an open, frank and honest way, which will give designed to help them, has paid out £97 million to 4,000 sway to the relatives and change their futures. people since 2004, which is the equivalent of just under £5,000 per person per year. That is considerably less Jenny Willott rose— than the average benefit claimant receives in a year. That is just not fair compensation for infecting someone Dr. William McCrea (in the Chair): Order. Interventions with a virus that causes them huge daily suffering and is must be brief because the hon. Lady has only a short ultimately very likely to kill them. The Department of period in which to speak, and the Minister must respond. Health has said that it will reassess the scheme in 2014, but that is a very long way away, and we are talking Jenny Willott: Many of the relatives of those who about people with life-threatening conditions. By that have died feel that there are questions that still need to time, many more of the affected people will have died be answered before they can move on with their lives. after many years of suffering. That is not fair. I welcome the release of thousands of documents by the Department of Health. Those documents were initially Alistair Burt (North-East Bedfordshire) (Con): The thought to be lost or destroyed. However, the Department hon. Lady has been exceptionally generous in taking has not played fair with the inquiry team. In response to interventions bearing in mind the shortness of the my parliamentary questions in December 2008 and debate. Does she agree that this is essentially a matter of January 2009, which was about a month before Lord justice and responsibility? That is why appropriate Archer reported, the Department told me that 35 documents recognition by the Government of their position is so were being withheld under the Freedom of Information very important to those who have suffered. Act 2000. It then released 27 of those documents two months after Lord Archer reported. In May, the same Jenny Willott: Absolutely. day that the Department responded to the report, 468 more documents were released. They had been identified in late 2008. None of the documents was made available 4.10 pm to the inquiry team or mentioned in responses to my Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. 127WH Archer Inquiry1 JULY 2009 Archer Inquiry 128WH

4.25 pm than 1,800 people. Now is the time to draw a line under On resuming— it once and for all. I would be grateful if the Minister let me know whether she will meet me and a small cross-party delegation of Members of Parliament, together with Dr. William McCrea (in the Chair): Order. I call Jenny representatives of the Haemophilia Society and a couple Willott to continue the debate, which will carry on until of patients, to discuss how we can finally move forward 4.45 pm. and ensure that the Archer inquiry is put into practice. Jenny Willott: We were speaking about the treatment of people with hepatitis C and how it differs from that 4.29 pm of those who have contracted HIV. I would be grateful The Minister of State, Department of Health (Gillian if the Minister told us why people with hepatitis C are Merron): I congratulate the hon. Member for Cardiff, treated differently from those with HIV—both conditions Central (Jenny Willott) on securing this important debate. are debilitating and life-threatening and have caused I pay tribute to her and others, including parliamentary severe financial hardship for those affected. colleagues, who work to support those who have acquired This tragedy has already produced hundreds of widows infections through treatment with blood or blood products. and widowers. They do not receive any financial support I am deeply sorry for what happened and have the after the death of their partner. Furthermore, it is utmost sympathy for those whose lives have been affected almost impossible for anyone with HIV or hepatitis C by it either directly or indirectly. Parliament has debated to get affordable life insurance. My constituent, Haydn the matter in both the Commons and the other place, Lewis, recently got a quote for basic life insurance and Lord Archer and his team conducted a thorough cover, which had a premium of more than £6,000. That and valuable review. I thank Lord Archer for his report. is completely unaffordable for someone who is dependent We can all agree that the circumstances are tragic. on benefits and Macfarlane Trust payouts. Lord Archer How could a revolutionary new treatment for haemophilia has said that the issue needs to be tackled, but unfortunately, that offered so much hope at the time—the early 1970s—end the Department’s response was that insurers do not in so much tragedy for so many? Almost 5,000 people in discriminate against infected haemophiliacs, and that the UK and thousands more around the world were premiums are based on risk assessment. To me, that is infected with hepatitis C and HIV, resulting in the loss both patronising and inadequate. No one is claiming of many lives. that insurers discriminate against infected haemophiliacs, and of course premiums are based on risk. However, it Before the treatment became available, the life is because the NHS infected those people with life- expectancy of someone with severe haemophilia was threatening viruses that they pose such a high insurance less than 30 years. Although there were warning voices risk and are therefore charged unaffordable insurance at the time about the risk from infection, the consensus premiums. All the recently announced extra funding for in both the scientific and haemophilia communities was the HIV sufferers will be swallowed up in life insurance that the risk was low and worth taking. Unfortunately, costs, and the Government are proposing nothing to we know now that that consensus was wrong. The best help those with hepatitis C. available treatment at the time, a treatment intended solely to improve length and quality of life, resulted The tragedy has affected a number of different countries instead in heartbreak for many people and their families. around the world, yet the British Government’s behaviour The risks were higher than was thought, and the pain is different from that of other Governments. I have and grief caused can never be undone. already spoken about the Irish tribunal, and in Ireland the Government decided to provide If doctors and medical experts had known then what they know now, the tragedy could have been prevented, “compensation for persons with haemophilia…on compassionate grounds, without legal liability on the part of the state.” but the fact is that they did not. Successive Governments have been accused of trying to hide what was said and Despite Government protestations, there is no difference done during the period when most of the infections between Irish and UK circumstances. Neither state has occurred, but this Government have done more than been found liable for the infection of haemophiliacs, any other to make information available about the but the Irish Government have recognised their duty to events, judgments and decisions between 1970 and 1985, support those whose health was ruined by treatment after which safer blood products were introduced. In under the national health system. line with the Freedom of Information Act 2000, we Almost every MP has a constituent who is affected by have made more than 5,500 documents publicly available. this issue or who has died from their infections. We can In examining all those documents, which span decades, see the level of interest from the number of MPs who neither we nor Lord Archer and his team found any have turned up to the debate. I know that my hon. evidence of a cover-up. Friends the Members for Orkney and Shetland The hon. Member for Cardiff, Central asked about (Mr. Carmichael) and for Torbay (Mr. Sanders), who co-operation with Lord Archer’s inquiry. I will say are elsewhere today, have both been involved with straight off that there is nothing to hide. constituents on this matter. During the last debate on the subject in the House in 1990, the late Robin Cook Susan Kramer (Richmond Park) (LD): I thank the said that this was not a party political issue, but an issue Minister. I apologise for not being here for all of the of conscience and of justice. debate; I mistimed the vote. As she is so committed to Early-day motion 963 calling for full implementation full disclosure, can the issue be debated on the Floor of of the Archer inquiry already has 184 signatures from the House? There are many lessons to be learned, and hon. Members across all parties. This issue has been many people to be convinced that the matter is being going on for decades and has taken the lives of more dealt with openly and fully. 129WH Archer Inquiry1 JULY 2009 Archer Inquiry 130WH

Gillian Merron: Obviously, that is a matter for the On the point raised earlier about the supposed usual channels. I am sure that the hon. Lady will raise withholding of documents, I can assure Members that the issue at business questions. I would be happy to no documents are being withheld on either policy or reply and debate it as required. commercial grounds. The Department has now released We know that there is a misconception that the all of them. Only five documents from the period 1970 Department somehow did not co-operate fully with to 1985 are being withheld under a freedom of information Lord Archer’s inquiry. That is not true. Lord Archer exemption, on the basis that they contain personal asked for someone from the Department of Health to information. meet him, and officials did so on several occasions, but I understand the sense of grievance and anger and he did not invite Ministers to attend or participate in his the need to find out what happened and why. I also inquiry. More than 5,000 documents released in prior understand the feeling that someone somewhere must years were available to him. The most recently released, be to blame for what happened, whether individually or it appears, did not add materially to what was already collectively. I know that for some, whatever action is known, but I am happy to write to the hon. Member for taken will be too little and too late. I can assure Members Cardiff, Central setting out precisely which documents that we have demonstrated our commitment to those were made available to Lord Archer. affected and responded positively to Lord Archer’s report, to which I will come. Jessica Morden (Newport, East) (Lab): One issue We continue to work to provide ever safer blood and troubling some constituents of mine—the parents of blood products, and we are committed to helping everyone Colin, who tragically died aged seven—is what consultation infected through contaminated blood transfusions by took place with those affected between the publication giving them the high-quality treatment, care and of the Archer report and the Government’s response. information they need to help them look after their There is tangible concern that the community affected health. We continue to provide financial relief for those was not spoken to before the Government’s response. infected through treatment so many years ago. Gillian Merron: There has been consultation and Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): Will my discussion. The hon. Member for Cardiff, Central asked hon. Friend give way? me about a meeting. As always, I am happy to meet, but the requirement on the Government was to make a Gillian Merron: I am happy to do so, but this will be response to Lord Archer. We have done so, and it has the last time. been published widely. Dr. Iddon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. When I Several hon. Members rose— compared the Irish situation with the UK situation in the House the other day, she said: Gillian Merron: I give way to the hon. Member for “I cannot accept the comparison with Ireland, because the North-East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt). Irish blood transfusion service was found to be at fault, and that was not the case here.”—[Official Report, 23 June 2009; Vol. 494, Alistair Burt: I am grateful. May I press the Minister c. 656.] a little further on the relationship with the Archer However, will she admit today that the Irish paid out inquiry? Surely, knowing that the inquiry was going on, without liability and before any tribunal had met to the Department could have been proactive in offering discuss the position? In addition, Crown immunity applied help and assistance, rather than relying on the fact that to the health services in Britain at that time. it did not receive a formal invitation to take part. It could have been more constructive, and have involved Gillian Merron: I stand by the points that I made. more documentation in the inquiry, had it done so. Furthermore, a judicial inquiry in Ireland found failures of responsibility by the Irish blood transfusion service Gillian Merron: I can assure Members that, to the and concluded that wrongful acts had been committed. best of my knowledge, all co-operation has been made As a result, the Government of the Republic of Ireland available. As I have stated, Lord Archer has made no decided to make significant payments to those affected. suggestion of a cover-up. We have given him full As I will explain, that was not the case with the blood co-operation. On the matter of being proactive, we met transfusion service here. the inquiry team several times. Lord Archer made a number of recommendations, and we have published our response to them. I will Mr. (South-West Surrey) (Con): I am mention some of the main ones. For example, he grateful to the Minister for giving way, as I appreciate recommended that those infected should be issued with that she wants to make progress. The response said that cards to entitle them to benefits not freely available the Government would review the situation in 2014. under the NHS, including free prescriptions. Last year, That seems a long time away, particularly for my we announced our intention to phase out prescription constituents and indeed everyone else’s. Why was that charges in England for patients with long-term conditions. date chosen? It feels very much as though the issue is Professor Ian Gilmore chairs an independent review being kicked into the long grass, when for many people that is considering how that might be done. We will involved, the financial concerns are immediate. consider whether further action is required to implement Gillian Merron: I am happy to come to that, but the Lord Archer’s recommendation following the Gilmore simple answer is that it is in order to allow the scheme to review. be operational for 10 years, so that the issue can be Lord Archer also recommended that Government assessed in full. There is no intention to kick anything should provide funding urgently to the Haemophilia into the long grass; indeed, it is not possible to do so. Society. We have agreed to provide £100,000 this year 131WH Archer Inquiry1 JULY 2009 Archer Inquiry 132WH and for each of the next four years on top of any project to the trusts to allow them to make higher payments to funding that the society receives from the Department widows and dependants, although the level of payment of Health. Lord Archer also recommended that further will remain at the discretion of the trustees. efforts be made to identify people who may be unaware Turning to payments to those infected with hepatitis that they have been infected through their treatment C, the Skipton fund has to date paid out nearly £100 million. with blood products. We agree with that and will provide In answer to why the review will be in 2014, in my view funding for the haemophilia doctors organisation to the fund is relatively young, as it has been running for identify any such patients. only five years. I assure Members that I view the 2014 I turn to the recommendations on financial relief, our review with importance. responses to which have come under the closest scrutiny. For all pre-existing conditions, insurability and the In the UK, such payments are not compensation but ex level of premium are determined through the assessment gratia payments. That is an important distinction. Lord of individual risk. Lord Archer suggested that patients Archer made recommendations on the payments and be given greater access to insurance, perhaps through made comparisons with Ireland. However, it is important payments. The Government’s view is that it is the individual’s to restate that the position in Ireland is very different. choice how they spend the payments they receive. We The independent inquiry in Ireland found the transfusion have published our final response to Lord Archer’s service to be at fault because it had not followed its own recommendations and are working to implement our official guidelines on protecting the blood supply from commitments as soon as we can. contamination. That is not the case in the UK. Comparable The hon. Member for Cardiff, Central also raised the levels of payment are therefore not appropriate. issue of access to insurance through insurers. The I understand that there can always be a debate over Association of British Insurers has assured us that the adequacy and fairness of payments. So far, more insurers do not treat haemophiliacs or those infected than £45 million has been paid out through the two with HIV or hepatitis C differently from people with long-standing financial relief schemes for those affected other pre-existing conditions. In practice, all pre-existing by HIV. The Macfarlane Trust was established in 1988 conditions must be declared and are usually subject to and the Eileen Trust in 1991. This is the first occasion additional premium loading. In some cases, insurance is on which the structure of their payments has been unavailable. If there are any further matters on insurers, reviewed. We are increasing the payments to those I would be happy to raise them with other Ministers. infected with HIV and will provide them with a flat-rate, In closing, I realise that the Government’s response tax-free payment of £12,800 per year. That amount is will not satisfy everybody. We are dealing with an disregarded for benefits, which are payable on top. That extremely difficult situation, which none of us would change removes the need for people to make repeated have chosen. I hope I have confirmed that there has applications for funds, and addresses Lord Archer’s been openness and transparency in the Government’s recommendation that payment to those who are infected response and that we have sought to do the best we can should not be means-tested. We will also increase funding in this situation. 133WH 1 JULY 2009 Energy Security and Nuclear Non- 134WH Proliferation Energy Security and Nuclear Non- at the adjoining Sellafield MOX plant, which was rightly Proliferation approved by this Government. That is in keeping with the fact that every major pro-nuclear decision in this country’s history from Windscale onwards has been 4.44 pm taken by a Labour Government. Mr. Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): This is an important There have been significant processing problems at debate. I am pleased that somebody with such a keen SMP, which have caused Sellafield management, the intellect as yours, Dr. McCrea, is presiding over it Nuclear Decommissioning Authority and the Government because it requires such a tenor of adjudication. I am to assess the future of SMP for a number of years. That pleased to welcome the Minister to his new role. I know is not a new development. It is well known to the SMP that he will bring his own brand of intellectual rigour, work force and the wider community. Let me make my diligence and enthusiasm to the post, which he displayed position clear: my constituents, this industry and our as an able Back-Bench colleague. country cannot do without the services that SMP provides. The Minister and I have just left a debate on the It hosts a unique array of skilled workers with incredible Parliamentary Standards Bill. As constitutionally important technical, scientific and engineering competencies, which as that Bill is, it is my conviction that the issues before must not be lost to Sellafield or the nuclear industry in us in this debate are more important than those being this country. Closing SMP without having a replacement discussed in the main Chamber. The Minister holds an facility simply is not an option. It has underperformed, important post in what is perhaps the most important but it will have a use until a new MOX plant is built at Department. There is no more important issue facing Sellafield. this country and the world than climate change. It is If such a new facility were established, there would widely recognised by left-wing and right-wing Governments still be a role for SMP in immobilising the small quantities around the world that this country—and by definition of plutonium that cannot be reused as fuel or fuel this Government and this Department—is leading the components. Fundamentally, there is strong market international response to the threat of climate change. interest in bringing forward such a new facility, and Energy policy is the engine of our policy response in there is a genuine desire for that from certain companies— this field and is at the heart of the Government’s new they will be known to the Minister’s Department—which industrial policy. Energy policy is one of the most are prepared to invest their money to make that happen. pressing issues facing this country. Energy security and I discuss these issues with them regularly, so I know nuclear non-proliferation are at the centre of the issues they are genuinely excited about the possibilities before we are discussing. I will outline the importance of them, as corporate entities, the Sellafield work force energy security, the pressing requirement on us and and the country. Whatever SMP’s technical problems other developed nations to formulate a solution to the have been, the use of plutonium and uranium oxides to threat of nuclear proliferation, the policy solutions that create fuel is unquestionably the right policy. There is I believe the Government should pursue without delay, no credible case for pursuing an alternative policy on and the associated benefits of those solutions. We must environmental or economic grounds, on national interest recognise the reality of the situation and the opportunities or security grounds, or on the ground of effectively presented by it. pursuing global non-proliferation policies. The Sellafield nuclear facility in my constituency is It is beyond doubt that a new nuclear fleet in the UK the largest concentration of nuclear engineering skills, would be central to securing our security of energy abilities and facilities in our country. The site is home to supply. Every reactor design being assessed by the nuclear highly advanced facilities such as the Sellafield MOX installations inspectorate is capable of burning MOX plant—SMP—and the thermal oxide reprocessing plant, fuel, and there is a huge and growing international or THORP. It is also home to tens of thousands of marketplace for MOX fuel. Our policy response should tonnes of uranium oxide and more than 100 tonnes of therefore be obvious; indeed, it was recognised as such plutonium oxide. by the Prime Minister in his address to the International I should declare an interest in Sellafield. Although I Nuclear Fuel Cycle conference in London, in March, have no direct financial interest, I am a former employee on the eve of the G20 conference. He is the only party of the plant. Its importance to my constituency is such leader who appears to understand these issues and their that I should declare about 17,000 individual interests. importance both to the country and to my constituents. The Government’s policy in this area is right and I He is also the only party leader to support nuclear believe that we should go much further. Put simply, development in the UK and in my constituency. I thank THORP reprocesses spent nuclear fuel from the UK, him for that, and for understanding and facilitating my Japan and other countries. Reprocessing results in the constituents’ ambitions. separation of the unused uranium and plutonium from In his address, the Prime Minister acknowledged the a spent fuel rod, both of which are stored at Sellafield in need for a better, stronger International Atomic Energy oxide form, which is essentially a fine granulated powder. Agency, and for the need to turn stockpiles of nuclear Certain customers who send their spent fuel for weapons into fuel for use in civilian nuclear power reprocessing at THORP stipulate that the materials programmes. He said: extracted from their spent fuel, which remain within “Britain will be at the forefront of the international campaign their ownership, be returned to them as fuel that can be to prevent nuclear proliferation and to accelerate multilateral used in their reactors. Such fuel is mixed oxide fuel—MOX nuclear disarmament.” fuel—which is the combination of uranium and plutonium He went on to say that oxides into fuel pellets that are installed into fuel rods, a “however we look at it we will not secure the supply of sustainable number of which can comprise a fuel assembly and be energy on which the future of our planet depends without a role used again in a nuclear reactor. That fuel is manufactured for civil nuclear power. We simply cannot avoid the real and 135WH Energy Security and Nuclear Non- 1 JULY 2009 Energy Security and Nuclear Non- 136WH Proliferation Proliferation pressing challenge that presents, from the safety and security of It is essential to emphasise how that money could and fissile material to the handling of waste, a comprehensive multilateral should be used as a matter of principle, but particularly strategy to allow nations safe and secure access to civil nuclear in the current national and global economic environment. power is essential”. After all, we live in straitened times. The billions that Britain can fulfil its required role in those efforts only would be earned could and should be used to accelerate with Sellafield, THORP and SMP or a successor plant. the decommissioning and remediation of the greatest hazards on the Sellafield site. The speed of progress in I repeat that the policy is sound. If that sounds the work at Sellafield is limited by the availability of remarkably like Eisenhower’s “Atoms for Peace” money and sufficient manpower. However, more public programme, it is because it is. The expansion of civil money is being spent at Sellafield now, by this Government, nuclear power is clearly our best and most likely hope of than at any time in history. The last time I checked, it effectively combating the problems associated with the was £1.3 billion a year, whereas the last time I worked proliferation of nuclear materials. In this country, there there outside of Parliament it was in the region of should also be utilisation, although not necessarily £900 million a year. The better and best use of that exclusively, of the closed fuel cycle, with the pursuit of money should, can and will be sought. I know that the new contracts for the thermal oxide reprocessing plant. work force are committed to doing that, and I am Again, we know that the contracts are out there, and exceptionally grateful to them for all the work they do. again, I know that the Government are sympathetically disposed towards them. The policy I am suggesting includes a vision for Sellafield that means two new reactors being established Other major policy implications rest on decisions on the site, powered by MOX fuel produced at a new relating to the use of plutonium in this country, and I facility on the site. That would not only lead to the must pay tribute to the Royal Society and its fellows for socio-economic regeneration of my community, but their consistent interest in this area and for their outstanding would provide 6 per cent. of the UK’s base load electricity work. Many of their reflections and proposals run demand over 60 years. At the same time, it would solve throughout this debate. The use of plutonium as a fuel our proliferation problems and, perhaps most importantly component would necessarily mean that the vast majority of all, would obviate the need to emit more than 500,000 of our stockpiled plutonium would be classified as an tonnes of carbon dioxide over that period. asset—a usable commodity of real value—rather than Sellafield is predominantly funded by the public purse, as a waste. The stockpile is currently classified as neither and I am utterly opposed to spending cuts there. Talk asset nor waste, but that position cannot hold, and I such as the Conservative proposals to cut public spending urge the Government to recognise the value of that by 10 per cent. is entirely ignorant. Sellafield could not asset as soon as possible. Indefinite storage—the current stand such a cut, and nor could the community whom I management route for much of our plutonium that has represent. Ten per cent. of £1.3 billion is £130 million, been produced by reprocessing fuel from British reactors which equates to almost half the local Sellafield wage and from the British weapons programme—is unacceptable bill. Also, such cuts would necessarily result in for both the intermediate and the long term, and is decommissioning taking longer, and the general rule of incredibly expensive. In that state, those materials are a thumb is that the longer decommissioning takes, the constant drain on public funds, yielding nothing, achieving worse the hazards become, as do the cost to the taxpayer nothing and doing nothing, but they could be earning and the environmental hazards. Nobody of integrity, the taxpayer billions of pounds, while helping to combat knowledge or honesty could possibly hope to sell such a climate change. ridiculous proposal to my constituents and the Sellafield It would be an absolute travesty if those materials work force. were classified as waste. Current estimates put the cost If the policy platform that I have suggested were of disposing of them at more than £3 billion, but again, pursued—I repeat that it is my sincere view that the that would yield nothing for the British taxpayer. It Government are sympathetic towards it—the cost to would represent spending without earning, and such a the public of operating Sellafield could be significantly move would be entirely wrong in principle. As well as reduced and alleviated, while total expenditure could be being both wasteful and expensive, those materials would increased and clean-up accelerated. We have to make have to be disposed of in a deep geological repository, money to spend money, and the Government’s industrial which would materially affect discussions about that strategy is the real-world champion of that simple fact. process that are already under way. However, that is the Energy security, the reduction of carbon dioxide emissions, subject of another, lengthier and perhaps more contentious world leadership in nuclear non-proliferation, massive debate, to which I shall return. I cannot envisage any benefits to the taxpayer and my constituents, and the community, least of all my own, volunteering to dispose opportunity to earn billions of pounds for the UK are of those materials, given that real value, community all there for the taking—let us get on with it. benefit, environmental benefit and wealth could be generated from using them as a fuel source. 4.58 pm Let us be under no illusions. A decision to classify those materials as waste could jeopardise the establishment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy of a repository, undoubtedly leading to further public and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): I am pleased expense. Pursuing the policy route I have outlined would to have this important debate under your watchful eye, earn us billions, reduce our carbon dioxide emissions, Dr. McCrea, and I am sure that you will keep us in increase the security of our energy supplies and help to order throughout. solve non-proliferation issues. No other technological I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland solution exists, and no other policy programme exists (Mr. Reed) on choosing this important subject, and on that could drive all those huge policy benefits and more. his obvious commitment to his constituents and his 137WH Energy Security and Nuclear Non- 1 JULY 2009 Energy Security and Nuclear Non- 138WH Proliferation Proliferation [Mr. David Kidney] Meeting future energy needs will be increasingly difficult, especially given our commitment to reducing the damaging constituency, which he has demonstrated in the debate. effects of greenhouse gases associated with the use of He has, once again, ably shown the breadth and depth fossil fuels. In that context, nuclear energy is enjoying of his knowledge of these difficult and important issues, something of a renaissance, but we must take full and his constituents can truly be proud of him. responsibility to ensure that, in taking advantage of all It is a challenging business meeting society’s energy that nuclear energy has to offer, both in the UK and needs in a world of more than 6 billion people and with worldwide, the risks of proliferation of nuclear material a UK population of more than 60 million. For the next for non-peaceful purposes remain low. half century at least, the population is predicted to The first part of my hon. Friend’s speech was about grow, as is the demand for energy. Of course, it is part of security of supply. The statistics on UK energy supply the UK’s strategy to tackle climate change that we show the extent of the challenge. Nearly a quarter of should seek to become more energy efficient. However, our current electricity generating capacity—around 18 demand for energy will clearly remain strong for the GW—could close over the next decade, as coal and oil foreseeable future. generation become subject to increasingly stringent The UK has been a pioneer in the field of civil environmental standards and nuclear power stations nuclear energy production, and our aim is to maintain reach the end of their scheduled lifetimes. Some of our our position at the forefront of the worldwide nuclear existing coal-fired and oil-fired plants can be expected energy renaissance that we are witnessing. In the UK to close by 2016, because of the application of the large and many other countries, interest has grown in recent combustion plants directive. A further proposed EU years because of the twin challenges of energy security directive on industrial emissions may well also have an and climate change. Much of the UK’s early work in impact on plant closures around 2020. this field took place in west Cumbria at the Sellafield At the same time, our indigenous energy—oil and gas nuclear site. The area in which Sellafield is located has a from the UK continental shelf—is in decline. New long and distinguished history of contributing to the investment in gas pipelines from continental neighbours, development of nuclear energy. In May 1956, the first plus the development of liquefied natural gas terminals, reactor was started at Calder Hall. is encouraging, but it means that we will be increasingly dependent on external supplies of those fossil fuels. 5pm Major investment is also under way in gas storage, and Sitting suspended for Divisions in the House. significant new electricity generation capacity is already being delivered. The amount of renewable electricity 5.20 pm generation has risen to 5 per cent. since 2001, and the UK is now the leading country in the world for offshore On resuming— wind. Our supply of renewable energy from wind is still expanding rapidly, and that is a sensible development, Mr. Kidney: My hon. Friend said how Britain led the given that the UK enjoys 40 per cent. of Europe’s wind. world on nuclear power and I agree that, in Calder Hall, However, the supply is intermittent and, in order to we had the first large-scale electricity producing nuclear meet our energy needs and carbon emissions targets, we reactor not only in the UK, but in the world. The site will need to decarbonise our electricity generation system was also the location for the Windscale advanced gas-cooled more or less completely. We will need all the technologies reactor, the forerunner of the designs that currently at our disposal, including carbon capture and storage form the majority of this country’s nuclear power generating technology, and efficient gas storage. capacity. Sellafield was also at the leading edge of nuclear fuel development and reprocessing, with a long We will need nuclear power to be able to play a full and distinguished history of utilising state-of-the-art role, too, and we are taking steps to facilitate private science and technologies. sector investment. Nuclear has been a vital and low-carbon We recognise that the redundant facilities on the site part of the UK’s energy mix for the past five decades now form a substantial legacy of plant and equipment and that can continue in future. We have seen significant that will need to be decommissioned—that is, cleaned investment in the UK since “A White Paper on Nuclear of all radioactive material and safely demolished. That Power” was published last year. work will last many decades and will secure work at the The second part of my hon. Friend’s speech was Sellafield site for many workers in my hon. Friend’s about the impact on non-proliferation. Of course, many constituency. As a Government, we are committed to will argue that there is an increased threat of nuclear the belief that the Sellafield site is home to our nuclear material falling into the wrong hands should we, or skills, our nuclear expertise and many of our key facilities. others around the world, increase our reliance on nuclear As such, the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority has energy. However, it is not axiomatic that more nuclear nominated a site adjacent to Sellafield as one of three power stations mean greater threats. A nuclear reactor potential sites in west Cumbria to be considered for new per se is relatively straightforward to safeguard: nuclear nuclear build. The NDA has started the sale process for material is in discrete items—the fuel elements—and the land on the Sellafield site and has called for expressions the reactor core can be sealed while the reactor is of interest from parties that may wish to invest in new operated and monitored remotely. Enrichment and nuclear in this historic region known as the energy reprocessing are the most proliferation-sensitive parts coast. During construction, each new station built in of the nuclear fuel cycle. However, an increased demand the area could bring as many as 9,000 additional jobs. for enriched fuel can be met largely from expansion of Once operational, up to 1,000 skilled long-term jobs existing facilities—one facility can serve numerous will be created. That could be worth about £2 billion to reactors—and there are precedents emerging for the the surrounding region and wider economy. transfer of enrichment technology under “black box” 139WH Energy Security and Nuclear Non- 1 JULY 2009 Energy Security and Nuclear Non- 140WH Proliferation Proliferation conditions, such that the fundamental know-how remains We are considering the basis for public consultation on with the originator. Some countries, such as the United long-term plutonium management, and we hope to Arab Emirates, that have announced plans to proceed launch it later this year. with a new nuclear programme, have publicly stated Clearly, another view that might be considered as an their intention not to build fuel cycle facilities, but to appropriate long-term solution for dealing with the rely on others. plutonium stockpile is to ensure that it is manufactured Even where enrichment plants are built, they will be into mixed oxide fuel, which would require a new MOX subject to safeguards—the measures to account for and plant, and thereby consumed in nuclear reactors. The verify stocks of nuclear material. The UK actively other main option, other than indefinite storage, is to supports the IAEA in its work to develop safeguarding treat the material as waste. That would mean immobilising techniques and to train inspectors in a dedicated safeguards the plutonium before its eventual disposal. Again, the support programme. The UK is a key player in the issues are challenging as likely immobilisation techniques global debate on multinational approaches to the nuclear have yet to be demonstrated outside the laboratory. I fuel cycle. A number of potential ways to provide heard my hon. Friend’s choice of those options, and his assurance of nuclear fuel supplies in the event of views will be received, welcomed and considered, along interruption due to non-commercial or political reasons with our consideration of other options. have emerged from the international discussions. The Government launched the national nuclear laboratory on 23 July 2008. Its vision is for a successful 5.27 pm centre of excellence serving primarily the needs of legacy nuclear waste clean-up. The laboratory will, of course, Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. also play a key role as a world-class provider of science- based technology solutions and research services. 5.34 pm Managing increased levels of radioactive waste is a On resuming— key area for discussion as we advance with the development of plans for new nuclear reactors. The interest expressed Mr. Kidney: On managing the risk of proliferation, in a potential geological disposal facility by Copeland plans for various fuel banks—for example, those supported and Allerdale borough councils and Cumbria county by the US, Russia, the EU and others—are well advanced, council is encouraging, and demonstrates further that and the details of the UK’s nuclear fuel assurance to region’s commitment to the UK’s energy programme. underpin existing enrichment contracts are also nearly The geological disposal facility is a potential multi-billion final. With all those proposals, the purpose is to provide pound high-technology project that would provide skilled the confidence needed by new nuclear states not to seek employment for decades. to develop their own facilities. That will encourage the This debate emphasises the need to take decisions uptake in nuclear energy, because by avoiding expensive that will be durable for decades. It will be about seven and unnecessary facilities, the cost will be less, and it years from the moment a decision is taken before a new will reduce proliferation risks. nuclear reactor can contribute to the country’s electricity I note that no potential new nuclear states have supply, and it will be longer for countries without the shown a desire to pursue reprocessing. They recognise appropriate physical infrastructure or regulatory or that to do so would mean creating large, expensive, administrative frameworks for nuclear generating plant, identifiable and commercially unnecessary facilities. For but those reactors are likely to be producing power in our own part, the Government have concluded that any 50 years. As I have outlined, we have the structures and new nuclear power stations that might be built in the procedures in place, internationally and nationally, to UK should proceed on the basis that spent fuel will not ensure that proliferation risks remain low. We will continue be reprocessed and that plans for, and financing of, to develop those, working through all the means available, waste management should proceed on that basis. For to ensure that that remains the case. existing reprocessing facilities, the policy is that the The next review conference of the non-proliferation thermal oxide reprocessing plant will continue to operate treaty in May 2010 will be particularly important as a until existing contracts have been completed or the time to take stock of global intentions on peaceful uses plant is no longer economic. No firm proposals for new of nuclear energy, and to help to refresh our global contracts have been received. If we receive any such approach to non-proliferation. Nuclear energy has an proposals, their merits will be considered at that time. important future, but we will remain vigilant to ensure that it remains in safe hands. What we do with existing stocks of plutonium is extremely topical, and certainly emotive. The Nuclear Dr. William McCrea (in the Chair): I thank the hon. Decommissioning Authority has been working on options Gentleman and the Minister for their thoughtful help in for plutonium since 2005. It recently considered managing this debate, and for their stamina in going management options, published a plutonium options backwards and forwards in the Divisions. paper for comment in August last year, and finally Question put and agreed to. published its options paper in January this year. The Government are now ready to take forward the process 5.39 pm and to determine a long-term strategy for UK plutonium. Sitting adjourned.

17WS Written Ministerial Statements1 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

A similar increase applies to fee and course support Written Ministerial for new and continuing part-time students in 2010-11, which reflects our continuing commitment to part-time Statements study. For full-time “old system” students (mainly those who started their courses before 2006) the same principles Wednesday 1 July 2009 apply: their fee contribution loans and fee grants will be up-rated by 2.04 per cent. and their maintenance support will be the same as in 2009-10. We have also decided to align the financial support BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS for new entrants to postgraduate and equivalent initial teacher training courses with what is available for the generality of undergraduates. Bursaries and other payments Education (Student Support) Regulations for students undertaking initial teacher training will remain available. In over 500 constituencies, numbers of young The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual undergraduate entrants to higher education have increased Property (Mr. ): This Government remain since 1997 and the 20 most deprived constituencies all committed to ensuring finance is not a barrier to higher show higher than average growth over that period. education, enabling people to make the most of their Some of the poorest areas have seen the biggest percentage talents and improving their life opportunities. I welcome increases in young higher education entrants. Education the latest figures released today that show that more Maintenance Allowance (EMA) has been a key driver people from lower socio-economic groups are going of rising participation post-16, and independent evaluation into higher education, with the proportion increasing shows that it also has a positive impact on attainment at 3 percentage points since 2002. levels 2 and 3. Overall there are 300,000 more students in higher To help maintain this increase in participation overall, education than there were in 1997. We have achieved we will continue to encourage those in receipt of the this owing to continued Government investment, which EMA to think about progression into higher education. is over 25 per cent. higher in real terms than in 1997. In these difficult economic times it is both fair and We are committed to maintaining this increased reasonable to expect that those students who see an investment, and funding for student support will be improvement in their financial circumstances are assessed increased in 2009-10 by 4 per cent. compared with for student support, according to their need. We have 2008-09. In cash terms, we are planning to spend over therefore revised our plans for a guarantee of student £5 billion on student support this year, and even more support, and will offer students in receipt of EMA a next year. clear quote of the student support they will receive if In 2006, we introduced a radical new package of their circumstances are unchanged at the time they student support aimed at supporting those who need it apply for higher education. most. We predicted that around a third of students The student support regulations will be laid before would get a full non-repayable grant; in fact about Parliament today and, following approval by Parliament, 40 per cent. may receive a full grant, beyond our will need some weeks to implement. I have asked the expectations. Student Loans Company to begin processing new In these difficult economic times, we are continuing applications for student support as early as possible to take difficult decisions in the interests of students, during the autumn term and for returning students in universities and taxpayers alike. the new year. We have therefore decided to maintain the current package of maintenance support for full-time students, reflecting the current low inflationary environment. DEFENCE In 2010-11 students starting a full-time course will be eligible for the same level of up-front maintenance support that was available for new students in 2009-10: Armed Forces Recognition the full maintenance grant will remain at £2,906. the family income threshold for a full maintenance grant will The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. ): remain at £25,000. On 10 June, the then Secretary of State for Defence, my the family income threshold for a partial grant will remain at right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and £50,020. Loudoun (), informed the House of plans maximum maintenance loans and thresholds will remain at to introduce a new national form of recognition for the 2009-10 levels, which for a student living away from home families of those armed forces personnel who die on outside London could be as much as £4,950 a year. operations or as a result of terrorist activity while on Students continuing their studies in 2010-11 will also duty. These plans were based on the recommendations be eligible for the same levels of maintenance support of the military Chiefs of Staff. The Secretary of State that they received in 2009-10. said that the recognition would be in the form of an In addition, new and continuing full-time students emblem for wear and a Memorial Scroll similar in will be able to access a fee loan of up to £3,290 a year, concept to those that were issued to the families of which has been increased by 2.04 per cent. in 2010-11 to those who died in the two world wars and in Korea in reflect the up-rating of the maximum tuition fee level. the early 1950s. 19WS Written Ministerial Statements1 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 20WS

Much detailed work has been undertaken since that that the Commonwealth War Graves Commission announcement. We had hoped to provide more details attributed deaths up to 1 January 1948 to World War II before now but there were sensitive and complex issues service (with the exception of Palestine). involved which required much time to work through. The next of kin will receive both the Elizabeth Cross I am pleased to be able to announce further details of and the Memorial Scroll. For retrospective claims and this recognition to the House today. These details, when the next of kin is deceased, their legal successor recommended by the Chiefs of Staff, have been welcomed may apply. by MOD Ministers, endorsed by the cross-Government Only one Elizabeth Cross is to be granted for each Committee on Honours and Awards and approved by death recognised but an additional scroll will be available Her Majesty the Queen. In particular, I am delighted to to the following (or their legal successors) where they inform the House that Her Majesty has asked that the are not the next of kin: emblem should be known as the Elizabeth Cross. The parents of the deceased. The Elizabeth Cross is made of hallmarked silver and The spouse/partner of the deceased or someone who had a is in the form of a cross with laurel wreath passing substantive relationship with the deceased. between the arms. The arms of the cross bear floral As a Memorial Scroll was issued at the time to those symbols representing England (Rose), Scotland (Thistle), who died in the Korean war, the Elizabeth Cross only Ireland (Shamrock) and Wales (Daffodil). The centre of (and not the new Scroll) will be issued in remembrance the Cross bears the crowned Cypher of Her Majesty the of those who died during that war. Queen. The reverse of the Cross will be engraved with the name of the service person in whose memory it is As with all forms of recognition, there will be those granted. A miniature version of the Elizabeth Cross will who fall outside the qualifying criteria. There is a risk also be granted. Both will be presented in a black involved in much of what the armed forces do routinely. leather style presentation box with the Royal Cypher on Some members of the armed forces sadly die, for example, the lid and the Royal Coat of Arms on the inner silk in training incidents or in road accidents in the United lining. Kingdom. While any death is a tragic loss to the family concerned and to the armed forces, the Chiefs of Staff The Memorial Scroll is on parchment style paper, recommended this new recognition for the special headed with the Royal Coat of Arms and the following circumstances of operational duty. In addition they words “This Scroll Commemorates ... who gave his/her considered that the terrible circumstances where an life for Queen and Country on...” The Scroll will bear individual was targeted by terrorists because of their the signature of Her Majesty the Queen in the upper membership of the armed forces should be similarly left hand corner. recognised. The Elizabeth Cross And Scroll will be granted in The first Elizabeth Crosses and Memorial Scrolls will national recognition of their loss and sacrifice to the be granted from one month today on 1 August 2009. next of kin of UK armed forces personnel who have From today, families of those who died in qualifying died on operations or as a result of an act of terrorism. circumstances are invited to apply for the Elizabeth Eligible personnel to be remembered in this way are Cross and Scroll to the MOD medal office, who will those who were serving with, or former members of, the administer the scheme. It is simply not possible to regular and reserve armed forces or the Royal Fleet contact the families of all those who may be eligible Auxiliary when deployed in direct support of a designated going back over 50 years as address details held for next operation. It is important to make the distinction that of kin are likely to be out of date. this is not a posthumous medal for the fallen but national recognition for the family for their loss. The Full details of how to apply, including an application next of kin of eligible personnel whose deaths fall into form, can be found via the MOD website at: www.mod.uk/ the following categories will be recognised in this way: defenceinternet/defencefor/veterans/medals/, while those without access to the internet may call 0800 085 3600 Those who died from whatever cause while serving on a medal and ask for details to be sent to them. earning operation. Medal earning operations are those in which deployed personnel received a campaign medal, general For new qualifying deaths after 1 August 2009, it is service medal or operational service medal which demonstrated intended that, in most cases, the next of kin will be the risk and rigour involved. Operations where a UN, NATO offered the opportunity for the Elizabeth Cross and or other international body or other nations’ campaign medal Memorial Scroll to be presented privately and in an was accepted for wear, in the absence of a UK medal, also appropriate way at the time of the funeral if they qualify. so wish. Those who died as a result of an act of terrorism where the available evidence suggests that the service person, whether on For retrospective cases, next of kin who are resident or off duty, was targeted because of his or her membership of in the UK will be offered the opportunity to receive the the UK armed forces. Elizabeth Cross and Memorial Scroll at a formal Those who died on a non-medal earning operational task presentation ceremony in the region where they live. where death has been caused by the inherent high risk of the Such presentations may be made by a Lord Lieutenant task. or a senior military representative. It is likely to be some Those who died a subsequent and premature death as a result months before these events are arranged as locations of an injury or illness attributed to the circumstances outlined will very much depend on the number of recipients above. living in a particular region and we cannot establish this In addition to recognising future operational deaths until applications are received. in this way, deaths in the circumstances outlined above If they prefer, families may choose to receive the that occurred after 1 January 1948, or as a result of Elizabeth Cross and Memorial Scroll by recorded delivery. service in Palestine since 27 September 1945, will be Next of kin living overseas will normally receive the recognised retrospectively. These dates reflect the fact cross and Scroll in this way. 21WS Written Ministerial Statements1 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS

We owe a great debt of gratitude to the men and solvent. As a consequence, National Express East Coast is no women who serve in our armed forces and who have longer able to continue its franchise agreement to its full term. done so in the past. That debt extends to the families The Government’s first and overriding obligation in this situation who support them and who bear the burden while loved is to ensure continuity of service to passengers, with no disruption ones are deployed away from home. I am delighted that or diminution of service standards. When the Government have the families of those who sadly die in the circumstances had to step in to protect rail services in the past, there has been no such impact on passengers. that I have described are now to receive some tangible evidence of the nation’s gratitude in the form of the I have therefore established a publicly owned company, which will take over this franchise from the point at which National Elizabeth Cross and Memorial Scroll. Express East Coast ceases to operate. We will agree an orderly Members will be able to view the Elizabeth Cross and handover with National Express. Until that date, National Express Memorial Scroll from this afternoon in the Library of will operate services on the current basis; after that date the new the House. public company will do so. There will be no interruption of services. Existing operational staff—who continue to provide a good service—will transfer to the new East Coast Main Line company; so will the assets necessary for the continuation of the JUSTICE service. I can assure the travelling public that services will continue without disruption and all tickets will be honoured. National Express also operates rail services on the East Anglia The Law on Damages main line and associated commuter routes. The company has said that it does not intend to default on its obligations in respect of these franchises. Notwithstanding this, the Government believe The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice they may have grounds to terminate these franchises, and we are (Bridget Prentice): We are today publishing the Government exploring all options in the light of the group’s statement this morning. In the meantime, we expect National Express to meet its response to the consultation paper “The Law on Damages”, obligations on these franchises in full. together with a summary of the responses to consultation. A company which had defaulted in the way National Express The response paper indicates that changes will be now intends would not have pre-qualifed for any previous franchises made to the Fatal Accidents Act 1976 to extend the let by the Department. I note that the parent groups of previous categories of people eligible to claim damages for franchise failures are no longer in the UK rail business. It is bereavement to include children under 18 for the death simply unacceptable to reap the benefits of contracts when times of a parent; cohabitants of at least two years duration are good, only to walk away from them when times become more for the death of a partner; and unmarried fathers with challenging. parental responsibility for the death of a child under 18. It is the Government’s intention to tender for a new East Coast franchise operator from the end of 2010. The specification of the The ability to claim as a dependant of the deceased new franchise will reflect my concern to secure better passenger person will also be extended to include any person who services and facilities. I intend to consult fully on the new franchise was being wholly or partly maintained by the deceased specification, including with passenger groups, parliamentarians person immediately before the death. and the Scottish Executive. The response paper also confirms our intention to The rail franchising system was examined by the National make certain changes to the law in relation to damages Audit Office last year. It was found to deliver good value for money, and steadily improving services. Passenger numbers are at for gratuitous care and on aggravated and restitutionary their highest levels since the 1940s, punctuality is over 90 per cent. damages. and overall passenger satisfaction is steadily rising. The revenue Copies of the Government’s response will be placed from rail franchises is enabling us to make record investments in in the Libraries of both Houses and can also be obtained upgrading the network and services on it. on the Ministry’s website at: http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/cp0907.htm WALES

TRANSPORT Legislative Competence Order (Culture)

Franchised Rail Services The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. ): I am pleased to inform the House that the proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Culture and other fields) Order 2009 has been laid (Mr. Sadiq Khan): My right hon. and noble Friend the today, as Command Paper (Cm 7668). Copies of this Secretary of State for Transport has made the following can be found in the Vote Office and will be placed in the ministerial statement: Library from 12 noon. I have written to the Welsh This morning, National Express Group has announced that Affairs Committee and to the House of Lords they will not provide the further financial support necessary to Constitutional Committee to request they undertake ensure that their subsidiary, National Express East Coast, remains pre-legislative scrutiny.

243W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 244W Written Answers to New Deal Schemes: South East Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Questions and Pensions what recent changes have been made to the methods of delivery of Flexible New Deal contracts in the south east district; and if she will make Wednesday 1 July 2009 a statement. [282684]

Jim Knight [holding answer 29 June 2009]: None. Following the announcement of the preferred bidders WORK AND PENSIONS on 29 May 2009 we remain committed to bringing in the Flexible New Deal Phase 1 from October 2009. At Carers: National Insurance Contributions this time, Phase 1 contracts have not been let.

Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Pension Protection Fund and Pensions what estimate her Department has made of the number of people in receipt of carer’s Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work allowance who may have recourse to national insurance and Pensions how many people in (a) the UK and contribution credits in accordance with the provisions (b) Tamworth constituency have claimed pension of the National Insurance Contribution Credits payments from the Pension Protection Fund in each (Transfer of Functions) Order 2009; and what estimate year since its inception. [282740] she has made of the monetary value of such credits in 2009-10. [282800] : Information relating to the Tamworth constituency could be provided only at disproportionate Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 29 June 2009]: Since cost. Such information as is available is as follows: 1976, people receiving carer’s allowance (formerly invalid The cumulative number of people in the UK whose pension scheme care allowance) have normally been awarded National transferred into the Pension Protection Fund Insurance credits for weeks for which the allowance is People due to receive paid unless they have a valid married women’s election. Year ending People receiving compensation on The National Insurance Contributions Credits (Transfer 31 March compensation retirement of Functions) Order 2009 is an enabling instrument which allows HMRC to award and administer National 2006 Nil Nil Insurance credits on behalf of the Secretary of State. It 2007 1,457 5,621 does not provide for any new credits. However, it is 2008 3,596 8,577 anticipated that regulations will be introduced shortly 2009 12,778 17,737 which will extend the range of credits available for certain people engaged in caring from April 2010. These Social Security Benefits: Fraud credits will have no monetary value in 2009-10 since they will not be available before 6 April 2010. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what information her Department collects International Labour Organization on benefit claims to assist in detecting fraudulent claims. [273207] Mr. MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions which Minister represented the UK : To detect both fraud and error once at the recent International Labour Organization annual a benefit claim is active within our systems we match meeting. [282410] our data against that from other sources. We do this using a range of data from both other Government Angela Eagle: At least one DWP Minister normally Departments and private sector sources. Data are extracted attends the annual International Labour Conference. from these sources at routine intervals and matched My hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford against our benefit data to identify anomalies, which (Jonathan Shaw) was scheduled to attend the 2009 are then referred for investigation. event but had to withdraw at very short notice due to unforeseen parliamentary business arising on the day of Social Security Benefits: Low Incomes his planned visit. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Members: Correspondence and Pensions what assessment her Department has made of the effect on customers from low-income Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for socio-economic backgrounds of recent changes to the Work and Pensions when she plans to reply to the letter frequency of benefit payments. [275746] to her predecessor of 19 March 2009 from the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton with regard to Jim Knight: The changes made to frequencies and Mr. J Harris. [283358] paydays are a key step in the, long-term, simplification of the benefits system. Before implementing this policy Jim Knight: I refer my right hon. Friend to the replies we consulted extensively with customer representative given on 11 May 2009 and 21 May 2009, Official groups to ensure that customer’s interests were fully Report, columns 571W and 1502W. considered. 245W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 246W

We do, however, recognise that the initial move from Mr. Bob Ainsworth [holding answer 16 June 2009]: weekly payments to fortnightly payments may be difficult No UK nationals suspected of links to the insurgency for some of our customers but have addressed this by have been arrested by British forces in Afghanistan making a repayable loan equal to the customer’s weekly since 2001. benefit. Since 2004, the number of arrests on a variety of charges and not necessarily specifically linked to insurgency Unemployment of UK nationals in Afghanistan by Afghan authorities is provided in the following table. Paul Rowen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people have registered as Number of arrests1 unemployed at Jobcentre Plus in the last six months. 2008-09 4 [278310] 2007-08 4 2006-07 3 Jim Knight [holding answer 8 June 2009]: The available 2005-06 3 information is in the following table: 2004-05 2 Job seekers allowance—on-flows onto JSA for the last six months— 1 From 2004-08 as reported in the Consular Annual Return from the British embassy Kabul and from 2008 as reported from the Consular Date On-flow Off-flow Net difference Assistance Database held by the British Embassy Kabul. Information on arrests prior to 2004 and on arrests made by International Security November 350,920 265,555 85,365 Assistance or American Forces are not held centrally and could be 2008 provided only at disproportionate cost. December 2008 288,192 191,255 96,937 Air Force: Military Aircraft January 2009 290,785 163,585 127,200 February 2009 474,127 298,035 176,092 Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence March 2009 336,234 272,085 64,149 how many cannibalisations of each type of RAF April 2009 311,697 276,360 35,337 aircraft there have been in (a) each year since 2005 and Notes: (b) the last 12 months. [279952] 1. This information is published on the Nomis website at: www.nomisweb.co.uk Mr. Quentin Davies: The information requested covers 2. Off-flow data are rounded to the nearest five. a large number of aircraft and will take some time to Source: collate. I will write to the hon. Member when this work Count of unemployment-related benefits, Jobcentre Plus computer systems (computer held cases only). is complete. Substantive answer from Quentin Davies to Liam Fox: I undertook to write to you in response to your Parliamentary Question of the 17 June 2009, (Official Report, column 334W) DEFENCE about the number of cannibalisations undertaken, broken down by each type of RAF aircraft, in each year since 2005 and in each of the last 12 months, once officials had completed collating Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations the data. As I am sure you will be aware, cannibalisation is where one Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence aircraft benefits from the removal of serviceable parts from how many UK (a) citizens and (b) residents have been another. It is a routine and temporary measure to ensure that the arrested by (i) British, (ii) International Security Assistance maximum number of aircraft is available for front line duty. Forces, (iii) American and (iv) Afghan authorities in The number of cannibalisations in each year since 2005 broken Afghanistan since 2001. [280191] down by aircraft is provided in the following table.

2005 2006 2007 2008

Harrier (all types) 530 505 862 924 Tornado GR4 1,863 2,048 1,838 2,012 Tornado F31 872 667 667 238 Typhoon 243 542 540 621 Nimrod MR2 510 224 344 151 Nimrod R1 48 61 41 69 Sea King 270 204 115 126 Tristar 154 182 126 90 VC10 177 82 167 148 Hercules C130K 203 167 185 207 Hercules C130J 662 691 591 541 Sentinel R12 —— 736 Sentry 51 140 81 95 BAe 125 58 49 23 46 BAe146 8 9 17 15 C1740453939 Dominie 161 95 46 53 Hawk 415 398 241 135 Tucano 4 8 32 34 247W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 248W

2005 2006 2007 2008

Vigilant 10 29 20 24 Viking 4 1 2 0 1 The drop in cannibalisations for the Tornado F3 in 2008 is due to the drawdown of the force and its replacement by Typhoon. 2 Sentinel R1 did not enter service with the RAF until 2007.

The number of cannibalisations in each of the last 12 months broken down by aircraft is provided in the following table.

2008 2009 Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr May

Harrier 8271581028975619145885578 (all types) Tornado GR4 172 188 132 140 158 198 160 178 163 194 104 119 Tornado F3 27 13 10 11 9 10 7557100 Typhoon 44 61 47 59 61 36 53 36 55 80 55 22 NimrodMR216717148835181426 NimrodR10231042109723 SeaKing10211417121512913131612 Tristar 5 5 16 340735691 VC10 14 6 6 10 19 13 10 3 4 14 7 3 Hercules 35 16 13 25 21 15 11 12 15 9 8 11 C130K HerculesC130J664833575537334215243417 Sentinel R11 ————2212107248 Sentry4935713532136 BAe12521342420471012 BAe146011005351040 C17 375435413534 Dominie 17 11 5220202000 Hawk 13 14 5 7 13 14 11 13 22 37 13 26 Tucano130122D01202 Vigilant 122211021100 VikingDD0D0000D000 1. Sentinel R1 figures for June to September 2008 are not available

Army: Clothing Defence: Inflation Index

Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Defence what recent assessment he has made of the for Defence what progress his Department has made in merits of replacing bearskin caps worn by the Guards establishing a defence-specific inflation index. [283300] Regiments with caps made from synthetic material. [282942] Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The programme of work is on course and in April 2010, as notified to the HCDC over scrutiny of the 2006-07 annual report and accounts, the Mr. Quentin Davies: The Ministry of Defence has MOD will publish estimates of defence inflation for repeatedly demonstrated its commitment to the use of financial years 2006-07 through to 2008-09. For financial faux fur products in military ceremonial clothing wherever year 2009-10 a provisional estimate of defence inflation a suitable alternative can be found to real fur. Examples will be produced in September 2010. of this include the Busby cap worn by the members of the Royal Horse Artillery and the Shako hat worn by Departmental Older Workers the Rifles Regiments. Officials met with representatives of several potential Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for suppliers at an Industry Day on 23 October 2008 to Defence how many staff in his Department will reach investigate whether the market could deliver an alternative the age of 65 years in the year 2011. [283367] solution to meet the Guards’ requirements. Our conclusion is that industry is not currently able to produce a Bill Rammell: 1,157 MOD civilian employees will synthetic material with the properties required for the reach age 65 by the beginning of the year 2011. ceremonial cap, whose iconic design is closely associated Nuclear Weapons: Arms Control with this nation’s traditions and is recognised around the world. Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence However, we remain open to testing material that what reports he has received on the implications for UK industry might offer us as a potential synthetic alternative. defence policy of the recent statement by Russian Prime 249W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 250W

Minister, Vladimir Putin, on the disarmament of nuclear material relating to hon. Members’ allowances prior to weapons; and if he will make a statement. [282010] publication; who undertook the redaction process; and if he will place in the Library a copy of the guidelines Mr. Bob Ainsworth: We believe in the vision of a provided for the conduct of the redaction work. world free from nuclear weapons. We are committed to [282239] working towards multilateral nuclear disarmament, and are encouraged that Russia also shares this commitment. Nick Harvey [holding answer 24 June 2009]: The We also welcome the fact that Russia and the US are scanning and redaction of material relating to hon. currently engaged in negotiations over a successor to Members’ allowances was undertaken by staff employed the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty. As the Prime by The Stationery Office, the contractor employed for Minister announced on 17 March, we will soon be this project. Final figures are not yet available but, to publishing further UK proposals in a “Roadmap to the end of March 2009, the cost of redaction has been 2010”. £451,966. The redaction was undertaken in two phases—copies of the redaction guidelines for each phase will be placed NORTHERN IRELAND in the Library. Bill of Rights: Northern Ireland

Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for LEADER OF THE HOUSE Northern Ireland (1) what progress his Department has made on preparation of a Bill of Rights for Northern Ministerial Duties: Working Hours Ireland in the last six months; [282174] (2) when the consultation on a Bill of Rights for Mr. Redwood: To ask the Leader of the House how Northern Ireland will be launched. [282175] many hours she spent on her ministerial duties in the week commencing 21 June 2009. [283543] Mr. Woodward: The Government have been considering the proposals put forward by the Northern Ireland Ms Harman: I was on ministerial duty at all times. Human Rights Commission for a package of new statutory rights and duties on public authorities. It is taking time to consider fully all these detailed proposals. The Mr. Grieve: To ask the Leader of the House how Government aim to publish a consultation paper after many hours between 4 May 2009 and 5 June 2009 each the parliamentary summer recess. Minister in her Office who is also a Member of the House worked. [282778] Departmental Training Ms Harman: Ministers spend as much time as necessary Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for to fulfil their ministerial duties. Northern Ireland pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield of 2 April 2009, Official Report, columns 1457-61W, on departmental training, what service was provided by OASIS training. [279283] ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE

Mr. Woodward: Oasis is the Northern Ireland Office Committee on Climate Change: Buildings in-house IT network infrastructure, providing a platform for e-mail and general administration tools. Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Olympic Games 2012 Energy and Climate Change if he will place in the Library a copy of the (a) Display Energy Certificate Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) advisory report for the offices of the Committee Northern Ireland whether any full-time equivalent on Climate Change at Manning House, Carlisle Place. members of staff in (a) his Department and (b) its [283257] associated public bodies are working on projects relating to the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Mr. Kidney: The CCC leases the fourth floor of Games. [283162] Manning House and does not have control over the management of the building. The building managers Paul Goggins: None. have not as yet applied for a display energy certificate or advisory report to be undertaken, although the CCC has requested that this is done. We are therefore unable to place a copy of these in the House library. The CCC HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION has installed carbon footprint trackers and is monitoring energy usage for its floor of the building. It has also Members: Allowances applied to have an energy performance certificate produced for its offices. The CCC’s corporate carbon management Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the hon. Member for North policy will be published in its annual report and accounts Devon, representing the House of Commons for 2008-09 which will be laid before both Houses’ Commission how much was spent on the redaction of Libraries by 22 July 2009. 251W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 252W

Fuel Poverty Departmental Energy

Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change if he will place in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which official Library a copy of the (a) agenda and (b) minutes of is responsible for the energy efficiency of his the Fuel Poverty Summit convened by Ofgem in April Department’s estate. [280561] 2008. [283244] Dan Norris: The permanent secretary is responsible for DEFRA’s energy efficiency. Mr. Kidney: The Department does not hold a copy of the agenda and minutes of the summit. Departmental Food Information about the summit can be found on Ofgem’s Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for website. This includes introductory remarks from Lord Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what percentage Mogg, Ofgem’s chairman, at: of the (a) meat, (b) fruit and (c) vegetables procured http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/SocAction/ by his Department in the last 12 months was produced Publications/Documentsl/ in the UK. [281944] Action%20Programme%20for%20Energy%20Summit.pdf the Fuel Poverty Action Plan which was agreed at the Dan Norris: A second report on the proportion of summit at: domestically produced food used by Government Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/SocAction/ under contracts negotiated by NHS supply chain and Publications/Documents1/ Fuel%20Poverty%20Summit%20Action%20Programme.pdf HM Prison Service was published in November 2008, covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. and the relevant press release at: This report and the first one covering the previous year http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/media/pressrel/Documentsl/ can be found at: FP%20Summit%20Action%20Planthrid%20final.pdf http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/policy/sustain/procurement/ awareness.htm The report gives details of the proportion of individual meat, fruit and vegetable categories purchased. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Although it is too early to show a trend, the report indicates that the amount of domestically produced Beaches: Barmston food consumed by Government Departments in England is increasing. The proportion of domestically produced Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for food procured by DEFRA has gone up from 79.5 per Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for what reasons cent. in 2006-07 to 85 per cent. in 2007-08. We expect to water samples have not been taken from the sea at publish a third report at the end of 2009. Barmston in East Yorkshire in 2009; what recent Forests representations he has received on sampling sea waters and Barmston’s ability to obtain Bathing Beach Ms Angela C. Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Standard; and if he will make a statement. [282748] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what area and proportion of land in each forest district managed by Huw Irranca-Davies: The Environment Agency, with Forestry Commission England which has potential for the agreement of DEFRA, decided to stop sampling lowland heathland re-creation (a) has been replanted water quality at Barmston at the start of 2008. This with conifers since 2005 and (b) is scheduled for decision was taken due to increased coastal erosion conifer re-planting. [282479] which placed staff under unacceptable health and safety risks when accessing the necessary sampling point. Huw Irranca-Davies: The potential area of lowland heath based on recent Forestry Commission surveys in Barmston is an identified bathing water under the each forest district and the area that has been replanted Bathing Water Directives (76/160/EEC and 2006/7/EC). since 2005 is given in the following table. The area An alternative site for the sampling point is being scheduled for replanting following clear felling is given considered. based on the existing management plans to 2020. These The Secretary of State has not received any plans are subject to revision in the light of new policy representations regarding sampling bathing water quality developments and any operational considerations such at Barmston and will not be making a statement. as wind damage, disease etc.

Potential lowland Potential lowland heathland replanted Potential lowland heathland scheduled heathland since 2005 for conifer replanting up to 2020 Percentage of Percentage of Forest district Area (ha) Area (ha) potential Area (ha) potential

Kielder FD 108 0 0.0 0 0 North West England FD 0 0 0.0 0 0 North York Moors FD 225 6 0.0 20 9 Sherwood and Lincolnshire FD 4,733 108 0.8 527 11 West Midlands FD 1,527 46 0.4 298 20 Northamptonshire FD 32 0 0.0 0 0 East Anglia FD 18,595 662 2.6 3,436 18 253W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 254W

Potential lowland Potential lowland heathland replanted Potential lowland heathland scheduled heathland since 2005 for conifer replanting up to 2020 Percentage of Percentage of Forest district Area (ha) Area (ha) potential Area (ha) potential

Peninsular FD 0 0 0.0 0 0 Forest of Dean FD1 367 4 0.0 58 16 New Forest FD2 (Dorset) 2,711 68 0.2 1,103 41 South East England FD 1,135 23 0.1 279 25 Total 29,433 917 0.4 5,721 19 1 The New Forest forest district includes land managed by the Forestry Commission in Dorset. The table does not include the SSSI/SPA/SAC designated land managed by the Forestry Commission in the New Forest national park. 2 The figures for the Forest of Dean forest district include land in Gloucestershire and the surrounding counties managed by the Forestry Commission. It does not include the area of the Forest of Dean’s statutory inclosures.

Water Charges: Voluntary Organisations OFT has also taken successful action on all-inclusive pricing by airlines under existing consumer protection Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for legislation. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent representations he has received from voluntary and Multi-Purpose Test Centres community groups on charges for surface water drainage. [283013] : To ask the Minister of State, Huw Irranca-Davies: Since 1 April 2009, DEFRA has Department for Transport how many multi-purpose received about 40 letters and one e-petition on the No. test centres were (a) planned to be open and (b) open 10 website from voluntary and community groups on at the time of the introduction of the new motorcycle charges for surface water drainage. practical test. [282909] Paul Clark: The Driving Standards Agency originally intended that a new single-event practical motorcycle TRANSPORT test should be delivered from 66 multi-purpose test Airports: Carbon Emissions centres (MPTCs). It was subsequently decided to split the new test into Charles Hendry: To ask the Minister of State, two modules with module 1 being the specific manoeuvres Department for Transport what recent estimate he has conducted off-road to ensure safety and module 2 the made of the volume of carbon dioxide emissions on-road riding test. This has allowed us to provide arising at each airport in the most recent period for 88 per cent. of candidates access to one of the 66 centres which figures are available. [283255] offering module 1 testing within our target of 45 minutes or 20 miles, and 97 per cent. can reach one of the Paul Clark: The Department for Transport published 105 centres offering the module 2 test at the same access in January 2009 its assessment of the carbon dioxide standard. emissions from each of the 31 UK airports included in When the new test was introduced on 27 April 2009, the Department’s UK air passenger demand and CO2 candidates were able to take their module 1 test at forecasting framework. These airports accounted for 66 facilities—44 MPTCs, six casual-hire sites, 16 part-time 94 per cent. of total UK air traffic movements in 2005. Vehicle Operator and Services Agency sites, and module This assessment is reported for the year 2005 and can 2 tests at 105 facilities—43 MPTCs, one casual-hire site; be found in Annex G, Table G10 of “UK Air Passenger and 61 other suitable Driving Test Centres. Demand and CO2 Forecasts”: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/aviation/atf/co2forecasts09/ Lembit Öpik: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many (a) collisions and (b) collisions Aviation: Fares causing injuries occurred during motorcycle driving tests in the calendar year up to 28 April 2009; and if he Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, will make a statement. [283301] Department for Transport if he will take steps to ensure that air fares advertised by low-cost airlines Paul Clark: The Driving Standards Agency report accurately reflect the cost to the consumer. [283156] information on collisions during motorcycle driving tests in the calendar year up to 28 April 2009 as follows: Paul Clark: Regulation EC 1008/2008, which came into force last November, requires airlines to include in Period: 29 April 2008 to 28 April 2009 the advertised fare all applicable taxes, charges, surcharges Number and fees which are unavoidable and foreseeable at the Collisions not involving injury 39 time of publication. It also requires the existence of any Collisions involving injury 42 optional price supplements to be clearly communicated at the start of the booking process. Department for Transport officials are working with the Civil Aviation Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, Authority and the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) to Department for Transport what percentage of the establish an enforcement regime for the Regulation, population lives within 20 miles or 45 minutes travel of which will include appropriate penalties for non-compliance. a multi-purpose test centre. [282910] 255W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 256W

Paul Clark: The original plans for 66 centres would Revenue expenditure on transport is generally supported have enabled 83 per cent. of the population to reach a through the Department for Communities and Local practical motorcycling testing facility within 45 minutes Government’s Formula Grant. travelling or 20 miles. In 2008-09 and 2009-10 special grant funding is being Our decision to split the test into two modules enabled provided by the Department for Transport to meet the us to increase the number of service delivery points. additional cost of the new, England-wide concessionary When the new test was implemented on 27 April 2009, bus travel. The allocations made to Test Valley and 88 per cent. could access a module 1 testing facility for Southampton for 2008-09 is shown in the table: the off-road element within the travel/distance criteria— Concessionary fares funding 2008-09 97 per cent. for module 2. The 5 per cent. difference £ million between planned and actual coverage for the off-road element is accounted for by the actual, rather than the Southampton 1.059 previously planned location of the new off road testing Test Valley 0.225 facilities. Railways: Carbon Emissions Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many planning applications for multi-purpose test centres were refused by local Charles Hendry: To ask the Minister of State, planning committees. [282911] Department for Transport what recent estimate he has made of the volume of carbon dioxide emissions arising Paul Clark: In total nine planning applications were from the operations of each rail franchise in the most refused and three were made and withdrawn following recent period for which figures are available. [283256] discussions with the local planning authorities. There were numerous other informal discussions with Chris Mole: The Department for Transport does not local planning authorities about possible sites where the hold data in the form requested. The rail industry case did not progress to formal planning application. reports its traction related carbon emissions annually to the Office of Rail Regulation. Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, In 2007-08, the most recent year for which figures are Department for Transport what estimate he has made available, the rail industry reported combined freight of (a) the cost to date of developing and constructing and passenger traction carbon emissions of 3.4 million multi-purpose test centres and (b) the cost of completing tonnes of carbon dioxide. Of this 2.7 million tonnes the remaining centres. [282912] relates to passenger operations. This information is found in Rolling National Rail Trends 2008-09 on the Paul Clark: The Driving Standards Agency (DSA) Office of Rail regulation website at: has spent, up to the end of the 2008-09 financial year, a http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.2026 total of £51 million of capital funds (£49.29 million on new DSA permanent centres; £1.12 million on shared with Vehicle and Operator Services Agency sites and £0.60 million on casual hire sites). TREASURY The forecast final capital spend is £71 million which is in line with the agreed programme business case and Banks: Loans budget. Public Transport: Hampshire Dr. Kumar: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of trends in levels of Sandra Gidley: To ask the Minister of State, Department bank lending in the last six months. [282882] for Transport how much funding his Department has allocated for the purposes of improving public transport Sarah McCarthy-Fry: In November 2008, the Chancellor in (a) Test Valley Borough and (b) Southampton in set up a lending panel to monitor lending to the UK the last 12 months. [283319] economy, and to promote best practice across the industry in dealing with borrowers facing financial difficulties. Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport allocates The Bank of England collects data covering aspects of integrated transport block and highways maintenance lending to the UK corporate and household sectors on funding to local transport authorities for capital investment behalf of the lending panel and publishes a monthly in transport. Funding provided by the Department to trends in lending report. These reports provide an local authorities is not generally ring-fenced and local assessment of the latest developments in lending to the authorities have discretion to spend their allocations in UK economy. The first report was published in April line with their priorities, such as the provision of public and the most recent report is available at: transport. Spending in Test Valley is a matter for Hampshire http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/other/ county council as local transport authority. The table monetary/trendsinlending.htm shows funding support for Hampshire and Southampton in 2008-09: Financial Services: Crime

2008-09 £ million Mark Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Hampshire 30.601 (1) what recent discussions he has had with the Financial Southampton 4.158 Services Authority on infiltration of financial services firms by criminal groups; [283374] 257W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 258W

(2) what steps his Department is taking to prevent Members: Correspondence organised criminal groups from infiltrating financial services firms; and if he will make a statement. [283375] Mr. Heald: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he plans to reply to the letter of 4 December 2008 from the hon. Member for North East Hertfordshire Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Ministers and officials meet (PO reference: 1/64303/2008). [277309] the FSA on a regular basis to discuss a wide range of issues. As was the case with previous Administrations, Sarah McCarthy-Fry: A reply has been sent to the it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of hon. Member. all such meetings. Mr. Garnier: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The Financial Services Authority (FSA) has a when he expects to reply to the letter of 3 April 2009 statutory objective under the Financial Services and from the hon. and learned Member for Harborough to Markets Act 2000 to reduce the extent to which it is the right hon. Member for Dudley South about Dr. R. possible for an authorised firm to be used for a purpose and Mrs. W. Sindall of Oadby, Leicestershire. [280254] connected with financial crime. As part of that remit, Sarah McCarthy-Fry [holding answer 16 June 2009]: the FSA has drawn attention to the financial crime A reply has been sent to the hon. Member. risks posed by inadequate systems and controls for the recruitment of staff. Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services All directors of financial services firms are required Mr. Oaten: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to satisfy the FSA that they are ″fit and proper what the average waiting time for a caller to each of persons″ when they apply for authorisation, and on an HM Revenue and Customs 0845 telephone numbers ongoing basis. The suitability of each individual person was in each of the last 12 months; how much the who performs a controlled function will be assessed by average call to such an 0845 number cost the caller in the FSA under the approved persons regime. In certain each of those months; and how many callers received a circumstances, the FSA may consider that the firm is recorded message telling them to call back later after not suitable because of doubts over the individual or having been put on hold in each of those months. collective suitability of persons connected with the [280653] firm. Mr. Timms [holding answer 18 June 2009]: HMRC HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) also operate a has in excess of 200 different 0845 numbers and cannot fit and proper test for key individuals involved in the therefore provide waiting times for each of these management and ownership of money service numbers. The majority of calls to HMRC are centrally businesses and trust and company service businesses managed through contact centres and the performance that must be registered with them for supervision under data for these calls are aggregated by each tax/head of the Money Laundering Regulations 2007. If any key duty. In the last 12 months, customers calling the main individual within the business is not found to be fit and lines of business waited, on average, the following proper HMRC will not register the business and the minutes and seconds before their call was answered by business must not operate. an adviser.

2008 2009 Average waiting time Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar Apr May

Child Benefit 03:24 03:34 03:44 04:51 04:15 03:33 02:16 01:53 00:09 00:07 00:28 01:21 National Insurance 01:20 02:06 02:04 00:34 00:50 00:31 00:16 01:12 00:36 00:45 00:55 01:13 Online Services 00:09 00:11 00:10 00:28 01:30 00:30 00:09 02:54 01:25 02:09 02:44 01:37 Helpdesk Stamp Taxes 00:20 00:33 00:17 00:06 00:11 00:10 00:11 00:04 00:04 00:05 00:17 00:20 Tax Credits 04:12 04:36 01:18 01:48 00:38 00:18 00:15 01:37 00:25 00:16 00:59 01:33 Taxes (PAYE) 02:42 04:06 02:12 01:47 00:38 00:26 00:36 03:14 01:35 01:49 01:48 03:12 Taxes Helplines 00:35 01:17 00:34 00:25 00:13 00:10 00:13 01:36 00:22 00:22 01:33 02:57 VAT 00:18 00:23 00:37 00:18 00:14 00:25 00:17 00:14 00:19 00:33 00:58 01:13

Call charges to customers are dependent on the tariff Welfare Tax Credit: Repayments arrangements they have with their service provider, the device they use for the call and the location from which they call. Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many people have been required to make repayments Callers to HMRC either enter the queuing system or, as a result of overpayments of their tax credits in if the queue is full, are played a busy message. The vast Milton Keynes in the last 12 months. [283682] majority of callers enter the queue through an initial interactive voice recognition (IVR) service. Some IVR options will advise customers to call back later if Mr. Timms: The latest estimates of the number of HMRC expects to be particularly busy, for example families with tax credit awards, including information during a peak period. It is not possible to identify the on overpayments by constituency, based on final family number of callers who receive this specific type of circumstances and incomes are given in the HMRC recorded message. publication, ″Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics 259W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 260W

Finalised Annual Awards. Supplement on Payments England and Wales for the years 2003 to 2007 (latest Geographical Analyses″, for 2006-07. This publication available) can be viewed in table 1. is available at: These data are on the principal offence basis. The http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc- figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to geog-statshtm persons for whom these offences were the principal Information for 2007-08 is not yet available at offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant parliamentary constituency level. The geographical has been found guilty of two or more offences, the finalised awards publications have been delayed offence selected is the one for which the heaviest penalty following a problem identified with the delivery of is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two geographical information, although this does not affect or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for the UK level statistics which were published on 19 May which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2009. More information can be found on the HMRC Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in website at: the autumn of 2009. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/tc-delay-07-08.htm Under the Penalty Notice for Disorder (PND) Scheme, the police can issue a fixed penalty notice of £80 for the JUSTICE offence of destroying or damaging property (Section 1 (1) of the Criminal Damage Act 1971) where the value Crimes against Property: Fines of damage caused is under £500. The number of PNDs issued in England and Wales for the years 2004-07 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (latest available) can be viewed in table 2: the offence how many people were fined for offences relating to was added to the Scheme in November 2004. damage to or destruction of property in each year since The PND scheme was made available to all 43 forces 2003. [282977] in England and Wales from April 2004. Claire Ward: The number of persons issued with a PND data for 2008 will be available in the autumn fine at all courts for offences of criminal damage in of 2009.

Table 1: Number of persons issued with a fine at all courts for offences relating to ’damaging or destroying property’ in England and Wales, 2003-071, 2 Statute Offence description 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Criminal Damage Act 1971 Sec. 1(2) and (3). Arson endangering life 1———— Criminal Damage Act 1971 Sec.1(1) and 3 Arson not endangering life 36 25 22 22 21 Criminal Damage Act 19/1 Sec. 1(2). Explosive Substances Other criminal damage 617184 8 Act 1883 Sec 2, Sec 3(l)(a). Malicious Damage Act 1861 endangering life excluding arson Secs 35, 36, 47 Criminal Damage Act 1971 Sec 1(1) as added by Crime and Racially aggravated other criminal 21 22 21 18 17 Disorder Act 1998 S.30 (1) and (2) damage Criminal Damage Act 1971 Sec. 1(1) as added by Crime and Religiously aggravated other — 2—— 3 Disorder Act 1998 Sec30(l) and (2). criminal damage Criminal Damage Act 1971 Sec. 1(1) as added by Crime and Racially or religiously aggravated 37423 Disorder Act 1998 Sec30(l) and (2) other criminal damage (any amount) Criminal Damage Act 19/1 Sec. 1(1). Magistrates’ Courts Criminal damage, value £5,000 or 7,370 7,129 6,519 5,655 5,634 Act 1980 S.22 as amended by Criminal Justice and Public less Order Act 1994 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit

Table 2: Number of penalty notices for disorder (PNDs) issued to offenders Departmental Information Officers aged 16 and over for the offence ’Criminal Damage (under £500)’ in England and Wales, 2004 to 20071,2 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Offence 2004 2005 2006 2007 what the cost to his Department of press office staff other than press officers has been in each year since his Department was established. [283074] Criminal 1,190 12,168 20,620 19,946 Damage (under £500) Mr. Wills: Since its inception on 9 May 2007, the Ministry incurred the following expenditure on press 1 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and office staff other than press officers: complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their Financial year £ inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 2 The Penalty Notice for Disorder Scheme commenced in 2004. 2008-09 150,337 Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit - Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Ministry of 2007-08 76,167 Justice 261W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 262W

Press Office staff other than press officers are alarm, harassment or distress under section 5 of the interpreted as being secretarial and administrative staff. Public Order Act 1986 in each year since 2003; [282975] The increase in expenditure has occurred because it (2) how many people were fined for offences of was recognised that, in the transition from the Department intentionally harassing or scaring people in each year of Constitutional Affairs to the Ministry of Justice, the since 2003. [282976] Press Office function needed to be enhanced to satisfactorily meet the demands placed upon it from all forms of Claire Ward: The number of persons issued with a media. As a major Department of state, the Ministry fine at all courts for the offences of using threatening touches the lives of all citizens, and it is important that words or behaviour likely to cause alarm, harassment the public understands how taxpayers money is being or distress and intentionally harassing or scaring people used and the services that it provides. The Ministry’s in England and Wales for the years 2003-07 (latest support and administrative staff working in press office available) is shown in table 1. are an integral part of the team, helping with daily These data are on the principal offence basis. The operations and smooth running of the area. figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to Departmental Pay persons for whom these offences were the principal offence for which they were dealt with. When a defendant Mr. Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice has been found guilty of two or more offences, the which of his Department’s (a) agencies and (b) offence selected is the one for which the heaviest penalty non-departmental public bodies have submitted bids is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two for efficiency savings to be used for pay improvements or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for in 2009 pay offers. [283033] which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in Mr. Wills: Agencies and non-departmental public the autumn of 2009. bodies (NDPBs) within the Ministry of Justice (MoJ) Under the penalty notice for disorder (PND) scheme, have not submitted any bids for efficiency savings to be the police can issue a fixed penalty notice of £80 for the used for pay improvements in 2009 pay offers. Efficiency offence of ‘Using words, conduct likely to cause harassment, savings were removed from budgets before funding was alarm or distress’ (S5 of the POA 1986). The number of allocated to MoJ agencies and NDPBs. Individual budget PNDs issued in England and Wales for the years 2004-07 managers are required to live within their funding allocation. (latest available) can be viewed in table 2. PNDs are not Harassment: Fines available for offences committed under section 4A. The PND was made available to all 43 forces in Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for England and Wales from April 2004. Justice (1) how many people were fined for offences of PND data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of using threatening words or behaviour likely to cause 2009.

Table 1: Number of persons issued with a fine at all courts for offences relating to ‘Causing harassment, alarm and distress’, in England and Wales, 2003-071, 2 Fine Statute Offence description 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Public Order Act 1986 Sec 4A as amended by Crime Racially Aggravated causing intentional 97 94 91 87 134 and Disorder Act 1998 Sec.31(l)(b),(4) harassment, alarm or distress Public Order Act 1986 Sec 4A as amended by Crime Religiously aggravated causing 04021 and Disorder Act 1998 Sec.31(1)(b),(4) intentional harassment, alarm or distress Public Order Act 1986 Sec 4A as amended by Crime Racially or religiously aggravated causing 15 24 21 22 34 and Disorder Act 1998 Sec.31(1)(b),(4) intentional harassment, alarm or distress Public Order Act 1986 Sec 5 Harassment, alarm or distress 9,932 10,296 9,972 10,235 10,832 Public Order Act 1986 Sec 5 as amended by Crime and Racially Aggravated Harassment, alarm 551 642 724 866 970 Disorder Act Sec.31(1)(b),(5) or distress Public Order Act 1986 S.5 as amended by Crime and Religiously aggravated harassment, 6 6 5 14 18 Disorder Act 1998 S.31(1) (c) and 5 alarm or distress 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed fortwoor more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Ministry of Justice.

Table 2: Number of penalty notices for disorder (PNDs) issued to offenders 1 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and aged 16 and over for the offence ‘Causing harassment, alarm and distress’ in complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted England and Wales, 2004-071,2 from large administrative data systems generated by the police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their Number inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 2 The penalty notice for disorder scheme commenced in 2004. Source: 2004 28,790 Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Ministry of 2005 64,007 Justice

2006 82,235

2007 77,827 263W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 264W

National Probation Service for England and Wales: cost. In respect of NOMS HQ, the current requirement Secondment of the Civil Service Commission is for secondments to be limited to a maximum of two years. This is currently Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice being reviewed as the future structures with NOMS are (1) whether any people seconded from the Probation developed. Service to (a) the National Offender Management Offences against Children: Sentencing Service and (b) regional offender management services have been (i) offered permanent posts within the Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Director of Offender Management Structure and (ii) how many people were sentenced to terms of imprisonment allocated to join a surplus employees’ group; [283044] for offences related to (a) child abuse, (b) child neglect (2) what his policy is on the secondment of and (c) sexual abuse of children in the latest period for Probation Service staff to the Prison Service; [283045] which figures are available. [282978] (3) under what circumstances a prison establishment can opt out of arrangements to second Probation Claire Ward: The available data are shown in the Service staff to prisons; [283046] following table. The data show the number of offenders (4) what the average length of a Probation Service sentenced to immediate custody for child neglect and secondment to a prison was in the latest period for sexual abuse of children in the last year for which which figures are available; [283047] figures are available. The term “child abuse” has no (5) from which budget the salaries of Probation specific recognised definition but includes a range of Service staff seconded to work in prisons in England sexual and physical offences against children, such as it describes harm caused to a child arising from physical, and Wales are drawn; [283048] sexual abuse or neglect caused by a parent, guardian, (6) whether he plans to review the deployment of carer, or stranger. A number of other offences such as Probation Service staff to prisons in England and offences against the person including physical assault Wales. [283049] may frequently be used by the police to charge offenders but where the age of the victim is not known. This data : Within the Ministry of Justice, prison are based on the principal offence. Where an offender and probation services in England and Wales have been has been sentenced for more than one offence it is the brought together under the National Offender Management one for which the heaviest sentence was imposed, where Service (NOMS), an executive agency. It is the agency’s the same sentence has been imposed for more than one responsibility to ensure that the two services operate offence the principal offence is the one for which the together to provide the most effective outcomes for statutory maximum is most severe. offender management, to reduce crime and improve Number of persons sentenced to immediate custody for child abuse public protection. Each region now has its own Director including child neglect and sexual abuse of children, 2007 of Offender Management (DOM), responsible for the Number of children operation of both services, and it has been an essential component of the restructuring arrangements that Sexual abuse of children1 1,199 probation service staff continue to operate in prison Child neglect2 99 establishments and to be seconded to NOMS headquarters Child abuse3 1,298 (including to DOMS’ offices). 1 Includes the following offences: In particular, throughout the regional restructuring, Sexual assault of a male child aged under 13 Rape, attempted rape of a male or female aged under 13 or under 16 there has been a clear recognition of the benefits in Sexual assault of a female child aged under 13 bringing together skills, competencies and experience Sexual activity with a male or female child aged under 13 from all parts of the new agency. Probation staff were Sexual activity with a male or female aged under 16 selected for the posts generated by the restructure through Familial sexual offences of a male or female child aged under 13 established secondment arrangements. It is not possible Abuse of children aged under 18 through prostitution and pornography Abuse of trust sexual offences against a child aged under 18 for probation staff to apply for permanent positions in Meeting a male or female aged under 16 following sexual grooming. the civil service other than through open competition 2 Causing or allowing the death of a child or vulnerable person. where the post is advertised externally. Probation staff Cruelty or neglect of children. are employees of probation areas and secondment Abandoning children under 2 years. arrangements ensure that an appropriate level of integration 3 The term child abuse has no specific definition, in this answer it takes place. refers to the offences included in sexual abuse of children and child neglect. Probation staff work in prisons in the public and Notes: private sector under service level agreements (SLA) 1. The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the between the governor or director of each establishment principal offences for which they were dealt with. 2. The Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force on 1 May 2004. and the chief officer of the local probation area. It is 3. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. ultimately for the Director of Offender Management to Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the commission the level of service that he or she considers detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large to be appropriate within the region and to determine scale recording system. budget allocation. The budget for probation services Source: provided within prisons is part of the prisons overall OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice. budget and the amount is designated by the governor of Probation the prison. Information on the average length of deployment for Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice probation staff to prison establishments is not held what the caseload of the Probation Service in London centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate was in each of the last five years. [282568] 265W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 266W

Mr. Straw: The total case load of offenders supervised encompasses a wide spectrum of Prison and Department by the probation service in London as at 31 December of Health work around such issues as mental health, in each of the last four years (the latest figures available) substance misuse and resettlement. Any prisoner identified is shown in the table. as at risk of suicide or self-harm is cared for using the Assessment, Care in Custody and Teamwork (ACCT) Number procedures. ACCT is the prisoner-centred flexible care- planning system introduced across the prisons estate in 2005 41,665 partnership with the Department of Health during 2006 41,338 2005-07 2007 41,998 2008 43,811 Most self-harm is not directly life threatening, but nevertheless can be extremely distressing for all those The 2008 figures are provisional and were published concerned. A prisoner-focused care planning system for on 30 April 2009 in the Ministry of Justice statistics those at risk, (ACCT), has helped prisons manage self-harm. bulletin “Probation statistics quarterly brief October to There are no easy answers to preventing self harming December 2008, England and Wales”. Copies can be behaviour but we remain committed to finding ways to found in the Libraries of the House and may be accessed manage it. via the Ministry of Justice website: Table 1: Recorded self-harm in single-function young offender http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ institutions, 2004-08 probationquarterly.htm Incidents These figures have been drawn from administrative Prison 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Ashfield 239 172 224 142 106 and processing. Aylesbury 83 116 346 265 265 Brinsford 23 73 102 86 87 Probation Officers: Manpower Castington 89 92 106 68 64 Cookham 163 197 144 216 55 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Wood Justice how many trained probation staff there were in Deerbolt 59 104 131 99 138 the Probation Service in each of the last five years. Feltham 161 144 126 221 210 [282809] Glen 217 232 149 249 231 Parva Maria Eagle: The following table shows the number Hindley 46 156 71 41 81 of trained probation staff in each of the last five years: Huntercombe 73 69 67 86 95 Lancaster 15 92 153 21 5 Full-time equivalents Farms 20031 20041 20051 20061 20071, 2 Northallerton 60 16 35 30 37 Portland 119 110 161 174 80 Probation 6,271.45 6,584.94 6,894.36 7,209.45 7,119.53 officers3 Reading 39 60 45 38 24 Trainee 1,818.20 1,774.20 1,386.70 1,134.09 1,138.00 Rochester 58 18 50 47 99 probation Stoke 250 192 217 227 325 officers Heath Probation 5,386.00 5,623.90 6,235.20 6,502.71 6,221.77 Thorn 31343 service Cross 4 officers Warren 21 14 18 13 80 1 Figures taken as at 31 December each year. Hill 2 Figures for 2007 will shortly be published on the Probation Service Werrington 13 30 24 12 52 Intranet and Internet sites. 3 Includes; senior probation officers, senior practitioners, probation Wetherby 60 .67 34 12 34 officers and practice development assessors. 4 Includes; probation services officers and treatment managers. The information requested on the number of injuries Young Offender Institutions: Injuries caused by use of restraints is not held centrally in the format requested and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. A Use of Force Report Form is Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for completed by each member of staff involved in its use, Justice how many incidents of (a) self-harm, (b) to explain the circumstances in which force was used. injury caused by restraint and (c) assault there were in Establishments are required to examine this information each young offender institution in each of the last five on a regular basis to determine if there any particular years. [282913] problems in relation to use of force or any resulting injuries. To obtain information on the number of injuries Maria Eagle: The annual numbers of recorded self-harm sustained during use of restraint would require contacting incidents for each of current, single-function young each young offender establishment and asking them to offender institution for each of the last five years is analyse their forms for every single use of force for the given in table 1. past five years. The National Offender Management Service has a broad, integrated and evidence-based prisoner suicide The number of assault incidents for each current, prevention and self-harm management strategy that single-function young offender institution for each of seeks to reduce the distress of all those in prison. This the last five years is given in table 2. 267W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 268W

The information is subject to important qualifications. Maria Eagle: Any death in prison custody is a tragic The NOMS Incident Reporting System processes high event. The Government, Ministry of Justice and the volumes of data which are constantly being updated. National Offender Management Service, (NOMS) is The numbers provide a good indication of overall numbers committed to learning from such events and reducing but should not be interpreted as absolute. Rises or falls the number of self-inflicted deaths in prison custody. in reported numbers from one year to the next are not a NOMS has a broad, integrated and evidence-based good indicator of an underlying trend for a particular prisoner suicide prevention and self harm management prison. Additionally there have been improvements in strategy that seeks to reduce the distress of all those in reporting over the years, and this is reflected in the prison. This encompasses a wide spectrum of Prison tables. and Department of Health work around such issues as Assault data are complex and the numbers need to be mental health, substance misuse and resettlement. Any interpreted with caution. Information recorded as assault prisoner identified as at risk of suicide or self-harm is incidents may involve one or many prisoners as some cared for using the Assessment, Care in Custody and assault incidents may involve more than one assailant Teamwork (ACCT) procedures. ACCT is the prisoner- or more than one victim. Additionally in a proportion centred flexible care-planning system introduced across of incidents only the victim is known. the prisons estate in partnership with the Department of Health during 2005-07. Reducing violence in prisons is a priority for Ministers, NOMS and the Prison Officers Association and they The National Offender Management Service holds are collectively committed to working towards a zero two groups of offender within its young offender estate. tolerance approach to prison violence. Since 2004, a These are young people (15 to 17-year-olds) and young national strategy has directed every public sector prison adults (18 to 20-year-olds). Under-15s are not held in to have in place a local violence reduction strategy and Young Offender Institutions (YOIs). since mid 2007 this has been applied to the public and The following table details the numbers of self-inflicted contracted out estate. A whole prison approach is deaths in YOIs in each of the last five years, by age as encouraged, engaging all staff, all disciplines and prisoners requested. in challenging unacceptable behaviour, problem-solving and personal safety. Age 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Table 2: Recorded assault incidents in single-function young offender Lancaster 15———1— institutions, 2004-08 Farms Assault incidents Lancaster 16— 1——— Prison 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Farms Hindley 17 — 1 — — — Ashfield 395 680 761 753 748 Aylesbury 18———— 1 Aylesbury 28 96 100 93 120 Portland 18 1———— Brinsford 360 364 197 204 352 Reading 18 — 3 — 1 — Castington 443 412 406 431 462 Stoke 18— 1——— Cookham 13 5 5 7 20 Heath Wood Brinsford 19 — 1 — 1 — Deerbolt 234 199 174 194 222 Glen 19—2—1— Feltham 751 698 596 544 648 Parva Glen 273 300 387 422 510 Reading 19 1———— Parva Rochester 19 1———— Hindley 78 149 407 548 550 Total—39041 Huntercombe 96 110 217 306 426 Lancaster 213 484 428 397 347 It is not possible to give the percentages that these Farms deaths represent, for each age, in each establishment Northallerton 110 118 91 108 106 and for each year. Young people and young adults Portland 166 194 170 234 193 account for some 2.6 per cent. and 10.5 per cent. of all Reading 41 93 72 54 37 prisoners respectively. The 17 deaths detailed above Rochester 120 102 113 80 173 constitute 0.2 per cent. of under-21s. Stoke 280 498 578 606 561 Heath Under-18s are also held in secure training centres and secure children’s homes. There have been two self-inflicted Thorn 8 21 148 85 45 Cross deaths in Secure Training Centres and Secure Children’s Warren 183 291 314 371 383 Homes, both involving 14-year-old boys. One was the Hill death of Adam Rickwood in Hassockfield STC in Werrington 123 160 168 154 228 August 2004 and the other was the death of Wayne Wetherby 492 568 465 393 432 Cann at Hillside Secure Children’s Home in January 1998. Young Offender Institutions: Suicide STCs and SCHs have stringent screening processes in place to assess young people’s risk of suicide and self-harm (SASH) taking into account vulnerability, safeguarding Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for and risk assessments. Young people are assessed upon Justice what percentage of (a) 12, (b) 13, (c) 14, (d) admission and regularly thereafter by the relevant staff 15, (e) 16, (f) 17, (g) 18 and (h) 19 year-olds in each as part of their review process. Providers have robust young offenders institution committed suicide in each systems to record young people’s risk assessments and of the last five years. [282919] follow operational policies for managing those who are 269W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 270W at risk of self-harm. Establishments regularly provide identification and subsequently absconded from the data to the YJB on all incidents of self-harm, and this social services accommodation in which they were information is regularly reviewed as part of the YJB’s placed in each of the last three years. [261596] quality assurance monitoring arrangements. Local Safeguarding Children’s Boards also play a key role in Mr. Woolas: I have written to the hon. Member. working together with establishments in helping address the safeguarding needs of all young people in secure Borders: Personal Records settings. Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Young Offenders: Sentencing Home Department what his latest estimate is of the cost of the eborders scheme; and if he will make a Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [282986] Justice what percentage of (a) 12, (b) 13, (c) 14, (d) 15, (e) 16, (f) 17, (g) 18 and (h) 19 year-olds who Mr. Woolas: The gross cost of the e-Borders Programme were convicted of non-violent crimes were given a to the Government is £1.2 billion, of which the cost of community sentence in the last 12 months. [282917] the 10 year contract is £750 million. Claire Ward: The available information is found in Cannabis the following table. Data for 2008 will not be available until ‘Sentencing Statistics 2008’ is published later in the year. Dr. Evan Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many raids upon cannabis Percentage of persons sentenced to community sentences for non- factories have been conducted by each police force in violent indictable offences1, by age, 2007 the last three years. [278933] Percentage given community Age sentences Mr. Alan Campbell: Data are collected centrally and 10 91.5 at police force level on offences related to cannabis 11 92.4 production, although no data are collected centrally 12 88.7 which relate to the number of raids on cannabis factories. 13 87.7 It is, therefore, not possible to provide a response to this 14 82.9 question. 15 79.1 However, in 2007-08, in recognition of inconsistencies 16 72.2 in definitions of the term ‘cannabis factory’ across 17 64.3 police forces, a single definition was agreed and a baseline 18 34.7 set for the number of operations against such enterprises. 19 29.9 The agreed definition was any premises, whether commercial 1 This includes all indictable offences not included in the violence or residential, where the premises, or part therein, has against the person offence type. Summary offences have not been been adapted to such an extent that normal usage included as they are not categorised into violent or non-violent would be inhibited and usually present within the premises, offences. or part therein, are items solely concerned for the Notes: 1. These figures have been drawn from administrative data systems. production of cannabis, i.e. 2. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, Hydroponics system the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large High intensity lighting scale recording system. Source: Ventilation/extractor fans OMS Analytical Services, Ministry of Justice Any other affiliated equipment, and/or The table shows the percentage of persons aged 10 to Electricity meter bypassed (abstraction of electricity). 19 sentenced to a community sentence for non-violent The total number of premises meeting this definition indictable offences in 2007. The definition of non-violent recorded in 2007-08 was 3,033. Results by police force offences are all those not included in the offences type, are set out in the table. More recent data are not yet ‘Violence Against the Person’. This data is presented on available and, as 2007-08 was the baseline year, it is not the principal offence basis. Where an offender has been possible to provide data at a national level for the last sentenced for more than one offence the principal offence three years. is the one for which the heaviest sentence was imposed. Where the same sentence has been imposed for two or Cannabis factories recorded 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008 more offences the principal offence is the one for which Number the statutory maximum is most severe. Avon and Somerset 207 Bedfordshire 17 BTP 8 HOME DEPARTMENT Cambridgeshire 112 Asylum: Northern Ireland Central Scotland 1 Cheshire 21 Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Cleveland 43 Home Department how many persons seeking asylum Cumbria 11 who entered the UK at Northern Ireland airports (a) Derbyshire 53 presented themselves with no identification, (b) Devon and Cornwall 19 presented themselves as juveniles without identification Dorset 28 and (c) presented themselves as juveniles without 271W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 272W

Cannabis factories recorded 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008 The information requested on arrests is not collected Number centrally. The arrests collection held by the Home Office covers arrests for recorded crime (notifiable offences) Dumfries and Galloway 0 only, broken down at a main offence group level, covering Durham 7 categories such as violence against the person and robbery. Dyfed-Powys 41 Essex 68 The alcohol related offences presented in the table are Fife 1 not notifiable offences and do not form part of the Gloucestershire 4 arrests collection. Additionally, data on arrests for the GMP 227 offence of ’Causing death by careless driving when Grampian 9 under the influence of drink or drugs’ cannot be separately identified from the arrests for ’violence against the Gwent 42 person’ reported to the Home Office. Hampshire 37 1 Hertfordshire 70 Number of offenders cautioned for alcohol related offences Kent Police Force Area, 2006-07, broken down by quarter2, 3, 4 Humberside 18 Quarter Quarter Quarter Quarter Kent 73 1 2 3 4 Total Lancashire 123 Leicestershire 75 2006 20 37 28 31 116 Lincolnshire 49 2007 36 23 37 28 124 Lothian and Borders 4 1 Includes offences under the: Licensing Act 1872 s.12; Sporting Merseyside 118 Events (Control of Alcohol etc) Act 1985ss.1(2)(3)(4) and 1A(2)(3)(4), 2(1)(2), 5B(2)(3), 5C(3)(4), 5D(2)(3), 6(2); Confiscation of Alcohol Met 289 (Young Persons) Act 1997 s. 1; Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 Norfolk 44 ss.12,17, 25(3)(a)(b), 25(4)(5), 32; Criminal Justice Act 1967 s.91; North Wales 31 Licensing Act 1964 ss. 5C(5), 6, 6, 19, 28(3), 34, 36, 39(1)(2)(3)(4), 45, North Yorkshire 11 48, 51(4), 53, 59(1)(a)(b), 71(4), 72, 84, 85(2), 89, 155(1)(a), 157(1)(a)(b), 157(1)(b), 159, 160,(1)(a)(b), 161(1)(2), 162,163,164(1)(2), 165,166(1)(a)(b), Northamptonshire 27 167, 168A, 168(1)(2), 169A, 169B, 169C(1)(2)(3), 169E(1), 169F, Northern Constabulary 0 169G, 170,171A(1), 172, 172A, 173, 174, 175,176, 177,178, 179A(6), Northumbria 38 179B(5)(6), 179E(8), 179H(2), 181A(1)(2)(3), 183(1)(2)(3), Nottinghamshire 55 184,185,186,187(3)(4), 188,193(7) Sch.8 Appendix C s. 6, Appendix D; Licensing (Young Persons) Act 2000 s.1; Licensing Act 2003 ss. 33, PSNI 4 40, 41,46,49, 56, 57, 59, 82, 83, 93, 94, 96,108,109,123,127,128, 132, South Wales 73 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 140,141, 142, 143,144, 145, 146, 147,147A, South Yorkshire 54 148,149(1)(3)(4)(7(a)(b), 150(1)(2), 151,152, 153, 156, 157, 158, Staffordshire 51 160,161,165,168, 179,197, Sch.8 paras 1 and 22; Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 ss. 11, 27; Road Traffic Act 1991 s. 3; Late Night Refreshment Strathclyde 30 Houses Act 1969 ss. 7(2), 8, 9(1)(4), 10; Town Police Clauses Act 1847 Suffolk 22 ss. 35, 61; London Hackney Carriage Act 1843 s.28; Merchant Shipping Surrey 12 Act 1995 s.101(1)(a)(b), (4) and (5); Licensing Act 1902 ss.2. 6(2)(a)(b); Sussex 37 Similar provisions in Local Acts; Road Traffic Act ss.4(1)(2) s.5(1)(a)(b), s.6(4), s.7(6); Road Traffic Act 1988 ss. 3A, 7A as added by Police Tayside 7 Reform Act 2002 s.56, Transport and Works Act 1992 S.31A as added Thames Valley 110 by Police Reform Act 2002 s.52; Licensing (Occasional Permissions) 48 Act 1983 s.3 [Sch. Para. 2, 3(a)(b), 4(1)(2)(3), 5, 6, 7, 8(2), 9(2)]; West Mercia 18 Licensing Act 1988 s. 17,18; Deregulation and Contracting Out Act 1994, s. 19; Children and Young Persons Act 1933 s. 5; Criminal West Midlands 203 Justice Act 1996 s. 6. West Yorkshire 368 2 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences Wiltshire 14 were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same Crime: Alcoholic Drinks time the principal offence is the more serious offence. 3 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and (a) (b) replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures have been Home Department how many cautions and included in the totals. arrests for alcohol-related offences there were in (i) 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate Ashford constituency and (ii) Kent in the last eight and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have quarters. [283002] been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data Mr. Alan Campbell: Information showing the number collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into of offenders cautioned for alcohol related offences in account when those data are used. Kent Police Force Area, 2006-07 (latest available), broken Source: down by quarter, can be viewed in the table. Information Office for Criminal Justice Reform - Evidence and Analysis Unit held centrally on the Court Proceedings Database from which the data has been derived does not include Crime: Cambridgeshire information on constituencies; therefore data for Ashford constituency is not available. The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home these offences were the principal offences for which they Department how many (a) crimes of burglary, (b) were dealt with. When a defendant has been cautioned violent crimes and (c) vehicle crimes were reported in for two or more offences at the same time the principal (i) North West Cambridgeshire constituency, (ii) offence is the more serious offence. Data for 2008 will Cambridgeshire and (iii) Peterborough in each of the be available in the autumn of 2009. last five years. [281198] 273W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 274W

Mr. Alan Campbell: The available information is given Depending upon the circumstances, a range of sanctions in the table. Recorded crime data are not specifically are available including disciplinary or administrative available at constituency level. action, and in extreme or persistent cases, termination A number of changes have been made to recorded of employment/services and, if appropriate, criminal crime in response to suggestions in the two reviews of proceedings. crime statistics. One such change is that the term ‘violent Compliance arrangements comprise a system of self- crime’ is no longer used in connection with the recorded assessment, accreditation, assurance reporting, audit crime statistics and we now provide figures for violence and review. against the person. Selected offences recorded by the police in the Cambridgeshire police Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the force area and Peterborough unitary authority Home Department what IT security policy his Department Number of offences has; what procedures are in place to ensure the policy is Violence being followed; what his Department’s policy is on against the encryption of data when it leaves departmental premises; Area and year Burglary1 person Vehicle crime2 and what sanctions are in place for failure to comply with this policy. [259853] Cambridgeshire 2003-04 10,257 13,663 12,034 Mr. Woolas: Information is a key asset to Government 2004-05 8,501 13,358 10,219 and its correct handling is vital to the delivery of public 2005-06 8,217 10,158 9,255 services and to the integrity of HMG. The Security 2006-07 8,821 10,421 9,715 Policy Framework, the Data Handling Report and the 2007-08 7,533 10,296 9,126 National Information Assurance Strategy produced by the Cabinet Office provide a strategic framework for Peterborough protecting information that Government handle and 2003-04 3,656 5,133 5,180 put in place a set of mandatory measures which 2004-05 2,973 5,165 4,658 Departments must adhere to. 2005-06 2,861 4,156 4,182 The Home Office is compliant with the security policies 2006-07 3,046 4,017 4,372 contained in the Government Security Policy Framework 2007-08 2,420 3,847 3,645 including those for information security and assurance. 1 Includes burglary in a dwelling and other burglary. Depending upon the circumstances, a range of sanctions 2 Includes theft of or from a vehicle and interfering with a motor are available including disciplinary or administrative vehicle. action, and in extreme or persistent cases, termination Cycling of employment/services and, if appropriate, criminal proceedings. Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps have been taken to Departmental Energy implement the bicycle purchase initiative in his Department’s agencies’ offices in Merseyside. [282557] Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much was spent on energy Mr. Woolas: The Home Office is planning to introduce efficiency measures for his Department’s estate in each —during the current financial year—the ‘Cycle2Work’ year from 2004 to 2009; what assessment has been tax efficient bicycle loan scheme across its estates. made of the effectiveness of that expenditure; and what Under the scheme rules the Home Office and its plans he has for future energy efficiency measures. agencies cannot state from the outset that the cycles will [280535] be made available for purchase at the end of the 12 month hire period. Mr. Woolas: The Department is committed to the Sustainable Operations on the Government Estate (SOGE) Departmental Data Protection targets which include a reduction in absolute carbon emissions, improve energy efficiency per m2 and action to apply the Building Research Establishments Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for the Environmental Assessment Method (BREEAM) to all Home Department what auditing his Department of its own new build and major refurbishment projects. undertakes to ensure that IT security policies are being followed; and on how many occasions (a) IT security Data on energy efficiency expenditure is not currently policies have been breached by employees and (b) a recorded separately, as implementation of these measures member of staff has been sanctioned for a breach of is generally carried out as part of wider design or such policies in the last 12 months. [259805] refurbishment programmes. Overall progress against the SOGE targets is assessed by the Sustainable Mr. Woolas: Information is a key asset to Government Development Commission for inclusion in their annual and its correct handling is vital to the delivery of public SDiG publication. services and to the integrity of HMG. The Security Recent examples of expenditure on energy efficiency Policy Framework, the Data Handling Report and the include the installation of energy efficient lamps, and National Information Assurance Strategy produced by the upgrading of thermostatic controls to improve efficiency the Cabinet Office provide a strategic framework for in certain buildings on the UK Border Agency (UKBA) protecting information that Government handle and estate in Croydon. Furthermore our newest office building, put in place a set of mandatory measures which Vulcan House, a UKBA property, has a range of measures Departments must adhere to. integrated into the design and construction to optimise 275W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 276W energy efficiency including setting the orientation to The report gives details of the proportion of individual mitigate the effects of solar gain, building fabric insulation meat, fruit and vegetable categories purchased. and a thermally efficient envelope including a vegetation Although it is too early to show a trend, the report roof that acts as a thermal barrier in both winter and indicates that the amount of domestically produced summer. food consumed by Government Departments in England The Department has recently signed up to the Carbon is increasing. The proportion of domestically produced Trust Management Programme which will assist us in food procured by the Home Office has gone up from identifying low and no-cost measures as well as further 68 per cent. in 2006-07 to 70 per cent. in 2007-08. We investment opportunities to improve efficiency on our expect to publish a third report at the end of 2009. estate. This programme is supported by a staff awareness campaign. We shall also be monitoring the effectiveness Departmental Procurement of the programme. Mr. Prisk: To ask the Secretary of State for the Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many and what proportion of Home Department which official is responsible for the invoices his Department and its agencies paid within energy efficiency of his Department’s estate. [280555] 10 days of receipt in each of the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. [278820] Mr. Woolas: The permanent secretary, David Normington, has overall responsibility for the Department’s Mr. Woolas: The Home Department has invested sustainable development policy, including energy efficiency. significantly in its people, with the creation of a professional Each year the Home Secretary signs off the Department’s Shared Service Centre and Procurement Centre of energy data for return to the Buildings Research Excellence complemented by the creation of new processes Establishment. and easy to use payment system. Departmental Food A firm focus has been applied by the Procurement Centre of Excellence in the area of prompt payment. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for the This focus has resulted in the Department exceeding the Home Department what percentage of the (a) meat, 90 per cent. target on three occasions in the fiscal year (b) fruit and (c) vegetables procured by his 2008-09 and able to meet the Prime Minister’s target of Department in the last 12 months was produced in paying all small, medium enterprises within 10 days, announced in October 2008. the UK. [281941] The Department has been working closely with colleagues Mr. Woolas: A second report on the proportion of in BIS reporting on both our legislative obligations of domestically produced food used by Government 30 days as well as the 10 day PM’s commitment for Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons SMEs for correctly presented compliant invoices. under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and The Department’s (Home Office HQ and UKBA) HM Prison Service was published in November 2008, performance of paying compliant invoices since the covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. PM’s announcement within 10 days is shown in the This report and the first one covering the previous year following table. The information shown for the Criminal can be found at: Records Bureau and Identity and Passport Service are http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/policy/sustain/procurement/ for all invoices received and paid as separate figures for awareness.htm SMEs are not retained:

All invoices HO Headquarters and UKBA CRB IPS SMEs, compliant SMEs, percentage of invoices paid within invoices paid within Number paid Percentage paid Number paid Percentage paid Month 10 days 10 days within 10 days within 10 days within 10 days within 10 days

January 2009 856 100 50 45 1,119 39 February 2009 1,001 100 79 41 1,111 37 March 2009 1,081 99.99 61 26 1,913 51

Until October 2008 the Home Department and its ONSET database; and how many such details have Executive Agencies was required to monitor and publish been added in the last 12 months; [283051] payment performance against a 30 day payment target. (2) which (a) organisations and (b) individuals have The first full month of formal recording against the access to the information contained in his Department’s 10 day target was November 2008 and therefore information ONSET database; [283052] about payment performance within 10 days is not available prior to this date. (3) what recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the ONSET database in predicting DNA: Databases levels of future criminal activity; [283053]

James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for (4) what rights of access an individual has to their the Home Department (1) how many young people personal information held on the ONSET database; aged under 16 years have their details recorded on the [283054] 277W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 278W

(5) how many people have had personal information We are unable to readily separate applications where held on his Department’s ONSET database removed in a decision has been revoked following receipt of an each year since its inception; [283055] appeal from those where a decision has been revoked (6) for how long personal information held on his following an Asylum and Immigration Tribunal Department’s ONSET database is retained; and what determination. This information could be provided only criteria apply for its earlier deletion from the database; by checking individual applications and therefore at [283056] disproportionate cost. (7) what his most recent estimate is of the average 200620072008 annual cost of the operation of his Department’s ONSET database; and how much has been spent on India the ONSET database since the commencement of the Visas refused 77,291 81,234 78,458 project. [283057] Appeals 22,164 26,421 33,511 received Maria Eagle: I have been asked to reply. Appeals 11,696 13,181 12,740 Onset is a set of assessment and referral tools designed allowed by the Centre for Criminology, University of Oxford, for use by local authorities’ youth offending teams to Sri Lanka support their work to prevent crime. Onset identifies Visas refused 8,434 8,231 7,875 whether a child or young person would benefit from an Appeals 1,467 954 1,046 early intervention in order to help prevent antisocial received behaviour and offending. Appeals 1,184 671 547 Onset also helps to ensure the effectiveness of the allowed intervention by determining the risk factors that should be reduced and the protective factors that should be Zimbabwe enhanced in any given case based on the individual’s Visas refused 7,660 6,463 6,433 assessment. In 2008-09, youth offending teams reported Appeals 2,463 2,697 2,577 to the Youth Justice Board that 15,752 children and received young people had an Onset assessment. Appeals 741 1,186 1,110 The profiles generated by Onset are stored on the allowed electronic and paper record systems used by local authorities. Note: These data are unpublished and should be treated as provisional. These systems can be accessed only by the multi-agency Source: staff working for youth offending teams, such as health Central Reference System workers, police officers, social workers, probation officers and housing officers. Access to and sharing of such Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State information is subject to the requirements of the Data for the Home Department if he will include medical Protection Act 1998. The Youth Justice Board has qualifications in the criteria for awarding a Tier 1 visa. issued guidance to youth offending teams on compliance [280857] with the Act and on effective record keeping and information sharing practice. Children, young people and their parents can have access to the information on Mr. Woolas: On 23 February the Home Secretary request. The guidance also advises on the periods for asked the Migration Advisory Committee what further which certain data should be retained. The length of changes to the criteria for Tier 1 there should be in time Onset data might be retained will depend on local 2010-11, given the changing economic circumstances. authorities’ own data retention policies and on issues The Committee are due to report back to the Government such as whether the young person goes on to offend, the in October. There are no plans to amend the Tier 1 nature of the offence and the disposal applied. points criteria before that time. However, this is not to say that overseas doctors are Entry Clearances unable to work in the UK. It is open for them to do so through Tier 2. Where they are a postgraduate doctor Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for the who has studied in the UK the UK Border Agency will, Home Department how many visa applications from exceptionally, allow the NHS and others to recruit (a) India, (b) Sri Lanka and (c) Zimbabwe have had graduates of UK medical schools from overseas under their applications refused in each of the last three Tier 2 of the points based system without first testing years; of those how many have appealed; how many the resident labour market. This concession, which we such appeals have succeeded; how many decisions have will apply to the current round of recruitment, will been withdrawn prior to determination of the appeal; allow these doctors open access to jobs in the UK’s and if he will make a statement. [253862] health sector, allowing them to continue their careers here. Mr. Woolas: The number of UK visa applications refused in India and Sri Lanka in each of the calendar Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State years 2006-08 is shown in the following table, together for the Home Department how many applications for with the number of appeals received and appeals allowed. the UK Border Agency’s Tier One (General) Category The same information is shown in the table for Zimbabwe, Visa Programme have been (a) denied and (b) but this is based on applications made globally by subsequently upheld at appeal since the introduction of Zimbabwe nationals rather than just those lodged in new rules on 29 February 2008; and if he will make a Zimbabwe as those data are not available. statement. [282217] 279W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 280W

Mr. Woolas: As of 31 May 2009, 7,279 overseas visa resident in England was 63,000. The margin of error applications under tier 1 (general) of the points based around this estimate is +/-11,000. These are the latest system had been refused. There is no right of appeal on estimates available. immigration grounds against decisions to refuse visa Information relating to the number of Zimbabwean applications under the points based system, including nationals who have applied for residency in England in tier 1. the last 12 months is not held centrally by UKBA. Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Serious Organised Crime Agency

Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how long on average it took for an Home Department how many staff were recruited by overseas student to extend a visa in the last 12 months. the Serious and Organised Crime Agency in (a) [281390] 2006-07, (b) 2007-08 and (c) 2008-09. [281967]

Mr. Woolas [holding answer 19 June 2009]: During : The total number of permanent staff the last 12 months the average time taken to decide an recruited by the Serious Organised Crime Agency in application for extension of leave for an overseas student each of the last three financial years was: was44days. Number Immigration (a) 2006-07 144 (b) 2007-08 107 Mr. Dhanda: To ask the Secretary of State for the (c) 2008-09 107 Home Department pursuant to the answer of 12 May 2009, Official Report, column 667W, on immigration, if Serious Organised Crime Agency: Pay he will take steps to expedite his decision in the case with his Department’s reference G1082747; and if he Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the will make a statement. [282802] Home Department how much was paid in bonuses to Mr. Woolas [holding answer 29 June 2009]: I wrote to (a) directors, (b) senior managers, (c) specialist and the hon. Member on 27 April 2009 with the latest delivery managers and (d) executive support and position on the case of G1082747 and this remains the administration staff in the Serious Organised Crime position. Agency in each of the last five years. [280323] Mr. Alan Campbell: The Serious Organised Crime Immigration: Bicester Agency was established on 1 April 2006. Only staff at grades equivalent to the senior civil service are contractually Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for entitled to be considered for bonus payments. The payments the Home Department what recent representations he made relate to performance during the previous financial has received on the proposed immigration removal year and the total figures for all such payments were: centre in Bicester; and if he will make a statement. [283226] £ 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Mr. Woolas: The leader of Cherwell district council wrote to the chief executive of the UK Border Agency Board 10,000 2,000 20,000 on 18 May to highlight his council’s hope that we would Members proceed with the site at Bullingdon as a first preference. Deputy 0 35,000 158,358 Directors The chief executive replied on 28 May explaining that as we had secured planning permission for a centre at both Bullingdon and Bedford, we are considering which Wildlife: Crime site to develop first, and that a decision will be announced in the autumn. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many convictions for offences Immigration: Zimbabwe related to wildlife crime there were in each of the last 10 years. [280362] James Duddridge: To ask the Secretary of State for Claire Ward: I have been asked to reply. the Home Department what estimate he has made of the number of Zimbabwean nationals (a) resident and Information on the number of defendants found (b) who have applied for residency in England in the guilty at all courts for offences under the Wildlife and last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. Countryside Act 1981, Protection of Badgers Act 1992, [282924] Deer Act 1991, Control of Trade in Endangered Species (Enforcement) Regulation 1997, and the Conservation Mr. Woolas [holding answer 29 June 2009]: The of Seals Act 1970, in England and Wales from 1998 to Office for National Statistics collects data on nationality 2007 (latest available) is shown in the following table. from the Annual Population Survey which covers residents The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences of the UK. For the 12 month period from October 2007 were the principal offences for which they were dealt to September 2008, I understand that it is estimated with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or that the number of people with Zimbabwean nationality more offences the principal offence is the offence for 281W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 282W which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same We have repeatedly called for a halt to such offensives disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence and have urged both the military regime and the Karen selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum National Union to intensify their efforts to find a penalty is the most severe. peaceful settlement that will bring about a permanent Data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. end to the conflict. Most recently at meetings between our ambassador and Burmese Ministers on 18 and 19 Number of defendants found guilty at all courts for offences under the June 2009. In response to the recent upsurge in violence Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, Protection of Badgers Act 1992, Deer Act 1991, Control of Trade in Endangered Species and reports of large numbers of civilians fleeing over (Enforcement) Regulation 1997, and the Conservation of Seals Act the Thai border, the Czech presidency of the EU, with 1970, in England and Wales for the years 1998 to 20071, 2, 3, 4 our strong support, issued a statement on 11 June 2009 Found guilty calling for an end to the hostilities. It expressed particular concern about the humanitarian impact of the ongoing 1998 70 conflict. We fully support this call and our embassy in 1999 70 Rangoon continues to monitor the situation closely. 2000 64 2001 96 Colombia 2002 64 2003 63 Mr. Kilfoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign 2004 96 and Commonwealth Affairs what criteria are used in 2005 66 assessing the merits of negotiating trade agreements 2006 130 with Colombia; and what consideration is given to the 2007 56 application of EU policy on human rights in relation to 1 These data are on the principal offence basis. such negotiations. [282624] 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have : The key economic criteria for the EU’s been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken free-trade agreement partners should be market potential to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are (economic size and growth) and the level of protection taken into account when those data are used. against EU export interests (tariffs and non-tariff barriers). 3 Includes the following Statutes: This was set out in the 2006 Global Europe Paper. The Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 UK is working within the EU to ensure that any free Protection of Badgers Act 1992 Deer Act 1991 trade agreement with the Andean countries takes account Control of Trade in Endangered Species (Enforcement) Regulation of the EU stance on human rights in Colombia in this 1997 context. Conservation of Seals Act 1970 4 Staffordshire police force were only able to submit sample data for Mr. Kilfoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for persons proceeded against and convicted in the magistrates courts for the year 2000. Although sufficient to estimate higher orders of data, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions these data are not robust enough at a detailed level and have been he has had at EU level on the conditions relating to excluded from the table. the (a) labour rights and (b) human rights policies of Source: the Colombian government to which negotiation of the Evidence and Analysis Unit—Office for Criminal Justice Reform— proposed free trade agreement between the EU and Ministry of Justice Colombia is subject. [282625]

Chris Bryant: The UK remains deeply concerned about the human rights situation in Colombia. The UK FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE is working within the EU to ensure that any free trade agreement with Colombia includes a link to a human Burma: Ethnic Groups rights clause as an essential element.

Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for Delara Darabi Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what representations he has made to the government of Burma Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for on the military offensive against the Karen ethnic group; Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has and if he will make a statement; [282491] made representations to the government of Iran on the (2) what discussions he has had at the United execution of Delara Darabi on 1 May 2009; and if he Nations on the Burmese offensive against the Karen will make a statement. [282497] ethnic group. [282492] Mr. : We were appalled to learn of the Mr. Ivan Lewis: We are deeply concerned about the execution of Delara Darabi on 1 May 2009 for a crime situation in Karen State and reports of renewed fighting she had allegedly committed at the age of 17. The EU, between the Karen National Union and the Democratic with strong UK support, issued a declaration on 2 May Karen Buddhist army, who are supported by the Burmese 2009 condemning her execution and urging the Iranian army. Attacks carried out by the Burmese army and authorities to eliminate the death penalty for juveniles their Karen client organisations on civilians in Karen from its penal code. State have been particularly intense over the past two In a press release issued on 7 May 2009 my predecessor, years. We hope to highlight our concerns in a UN Bill Rammell, echoed these sentiments and expressed Security Council discussion on the protection of civilians our deep sorrow at the news. Mr. Rammell also summoned in armed conflict on 26 June 2009. the Iranian ambassador to the Foreign and Commonwealth 283W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 284W

Office to condemn Ms Darabi’s execution and the continued Computacenter; practice of executing juvenile offenders. He expressed Concerto Consulting; concern at Iran’s continued disregard for international Controlled Building Services Ltd.; human rights law; and reminded Iran of their freely Coombs Consulting Ltd.; undertaken obligations. Corporate Value Associates; Iran is signatory to the International Covenant on CP Recoveries; Civil and Political Rights and the Convention on the Cranfield University; Rights of the Child, both of which unequivocally prohibit the use of the death penalty for crimes committed by Crown Agents; those under the age of 18. Data Capture Solutions; DGSI; Departmental Billing Disposal Services Authority; Dytecna Limited; Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Ebla Translations; for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant Elan; Official Report to the answer of 14 May 2009, , Field Fisher Waterhouse LLP; column 917W, on departmental billing, how much his Department’s non-departmental public bodies have Fugro Middle East; paid in interest under the Late Payment of Commercial G4S Security Services (UK) Limited; Debts (Interest) Act 1998 in the last three years. Gardaworld; [282326] Gilbert Ash Fit-Out; Gleeds (QS); Chris Bryant: No payments of interest for late payment Gleeds Building Surveying; of commercial debts were made by Foreign and GMW Architects; Commonwealth Office non-departmental public bodies in the last three years. GP Supplies Limited; GTZ; Departmental Contracts Haig Consulting Ltd.; Hanover Aviation Consultants Ltd.; Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State Hay Group Management Limited; for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with which Heathrow Airport Limited; companies his Department, excluding its overseas Hoare Lea; posts, entered into contracts in the last financial year. HOK International; [282659] Intuity Consulting Ltd.; Chris Bryant: The following list gives the companies Jedi Systems Consulting Ltd.; with which the contracts teams in the Foreign and Jordan + Bateman; Commonwealth Office (FCO) and FCO Services have Kellogg Brown and Root Limited; entered into new contracts during financial year 2008-09. Knight Frank; It does not include contracts that were entered into KPMG LLP; prior to or after this period by these teams, or placed by LA International; others in the FCO in the UK during this period. This Mayfair Building Services; information is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. MCI UK Ltd.; Methods Consulting; Adhunik Vatanukool; Minimal Risk Consultancy Ltd.; AES Electrical Systems; Morson Human Resources Ltd.; Alchemist Partnership Limited; Morson International; ALCIS Ltd.; Mott MacDonald; Alfaplan Gradenje; NSSL; Ambrose HR Ltd.; ODEC Ltd.; Asbestos Removals Logistics Ltd.; Olive Group; ATG Access Ltd.; ORC International; Avail Consulting; Orostream International Contracts Ltd.; Balticare; Ove Arup; Bramble.cc Ltd.; Bright Horizons Family solutions; Oxford Policy Management Ltd.; Building Services Group Ltd.; PA Consulting Group; Business Objects (UK) Limited; Parity; Bymaro; Pemco Co. Ltd.; Cambridge Econometrics; Pepco Energy Services; Capita Group PLC; PMR Products Ltd.; Certes Computing Ltd.; Projected Consulting Ltd.; Coffey International Development Ltd.; Purcon Ltd.; Cogent Electrical Services Ltd.; QA Ltd.; 285W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 286W

Ridge and Partners; organisations, including Amnesty International and RN Golds Associates; Reporters Without Borders, presented their human rights RPS Health Safety; concerns to the Eritrean ambassador to Belgium and SMA Ltd.; EU representatives. South Midlands Communication; My noble Friend, the Minister for Africa, Asia and Spire Business Support Ltd.; the UN, Lord Malloch-Brown raised human rights with Thales UK Ltd.; the Eritrean ambassador at the end of last year. In February 2009 Lord Malloch-Brown also took part in a The Carbon Trust; debate in the House of Lords, which focused on the TMP (UK) Ltd.; human rights situation in Eritrea. Toffco SDN BHD; TPS Consult; Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Tribal Consulting; Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent UCT Ltd.; assessment he has made of the human rights situation Venn Group Ltd.; in Eritrea; and if he will make a statement. [282825] Veredus; Windell Ltd.; Mr. Ivan Lewis: We continue to be concerned about Zeal Interiors. reports of human rights abuses in Eritrea. A huge Departmental Opinion Polls obstacle to making any factual assessment of the human rights situation in Eritrea is that the Eritrean police and security services are not willing to engage with our Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign embassy on human rights abuses. This makes following and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of up or corroborating reports of any abuses very difficult. 18 June 2009, Official Report, column 435W, on departmental opinion polls, if he will place in the The UK raises human rights issues with the Eritrean Library a copy of his Department’s Survey of partners Government both in Asmara and with the Eritrean across Government. [283234] ambassador to London on a regular basis, highlighting the amount of public and parliamentary interest we : The Foreign and Commonwealth receive. My noble Friend, the Minister for Africa, Asia Office survey of Partners Across Government 2009 has and the UN, Lord Malloch-Brown raised human rights just been completed and the report is currently being with the Eritrean ambassador at the end of last year. finalised. Once the final report is available a copy will be We also discuss human rights as part of the EU via placed in the Library. the Article 8 Political Dialogue. EU Heads of Mission produced a human rights report at the end of January Eritrea: Human Rights to discuss with the Government of Eritrea. Since initial discussions earlier this year the government of Eritrea Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for has twice refused to have human rights included on the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Article 8 Political Dialogue agenda for discussion. However, discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on the when the EU Heads of Mission last met with the human rights situation in Eritrea; and what steps he Government of Eritrea on 23 June 2009, we were plans to take to have human rights included on the encouraged by the Government of Eritrea proposing Article 8 Political Dialogue agenda for discussion human rights form part of the agenda at the next between the EU and Eritrea. [282824] Article 8 Political Dialogue meeting, scheduled for September. Mr. Ivan Lewis: Our ambassador to Eritrea regularly discusses the human rights situation with her EU We will continue to seek to engage the government of counterparts in Asmara. The chief reason for these Eritrea on human rights issues at both EU and bilateral discussions is to raise human rights issues with the levels. Government of Eritrea as part of the Article 8 Political Dialogue. G8: Meetings In furtherance of the EU’s desire to discuss human rights with the Government of Eritrea, the EU Heads of Mission produced a human rights report at the end Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for of January. Since initial discussions earlier this year the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when the meetings Government of Eritrea has twice refused to have human of (a) G8 Heads of Government and (b) G8 Foreign rights included on the Article 8 Political Dialogue agenda Ministers in 2010 and 2011 are scheduled to take place. for discussion. However, when the EU Heads of Mission [282590] last met with the Government of Eritrea on 23 June 2009, we were encouraged by the Government of Eritrea proposing human rights form part of the agenda at the Mr. Ivan Lewis: In 2010 Canada will host the G8 next Article 8 Political Dialogue meeting, scheduled for summit for Heads of Government in Huntsville, on September. 25-27 June 2010. Dates for Canada’s G8 Foreign Minister On 18 September 2008 the UK took part in the meeting have not yet been publicly announced. European Parliament Human Rights Committee discussion France holds the G8 presidency in 2011, but has not on how to address the growing human rights crisis in yet announced the dates for a Heads of Government Eritrea. At this meeting various non-governmental summit or Foreign Ministers Meeting. 287W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 288W

Iran: Demonstrations Mr. Ivan Lewis: On 22 June 2009 the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s Travel Advice was revised to Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for recommend against all but essential travel to Iran. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise in Consequently we withdrew the dependents of our staff. the UN Council of Human Rights the handling by the We do not believe that it is necessary to advise British authorities in Iran of the public demonstrations on the citizens to leave Iran. However, we will continue to outcome of the recent presidential election. [282459] monitor the situation closely. We are investigating reports of the arrest of British Mr.IvanLewis[holding answer 26 June 2009]: The nationals in Iran and have called on the Iranian authorities UK regularly raises concerns about human rights in to allow consular access. Iran, most recently at the 11th session of the UN Council of Human Rights which took place from Israel: Prisoners 2-18 June 2009. The UK has strongly supported statements by the Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and a joint Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent statement under five UN Special Procedures. These representations he has made to the government of statements voiced grave concern about the use of excessive Israel on the welfare of Palestinian and Arab prisoners police force, arbitrary arrests and killings in the Islamic in Israeli detention; and if he will make a statement. Republic of Iran and urged the Iranian Government to [282780] refrain from using excessive force and to fully guarantee freedom of expression and assembly throughout the Mr. Ivan Lewis: The administrative detention and country. treatment of Palestinian prisoners, especially Palestinian The next session of the Human Rights Council is teenagers, in Israeli Prison Service facilities is a serious scheduled to take place from 7-25 September 2009, and concern. the UK will continue to monitor the situation in Iran We have called on the Israeli Government to take closely and raise concerns as appropriate. immediate action to ensure all cases are reviewed by a court in accordance with fair procedures, and that their Iran: Politics and Government rights, particularly the rights to a fair trial and family visitation, are upheld. We made our concerns clear during Israel’s Universal Periodic Review (UPR) in the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Human Rights Council in December 2008 and also in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s 2008 Human discussions he has had with his European counterparts Rights Report. We will continue to raise this with Israeli on the political situation in Iran. [282297] officials.

Mr. Ivan Lewis: The political situation in Iran was North Korea: Diplomatic Service discussed by EU Foreign Ministers, including my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, at the most recent Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for European Union General Affairs and External Relations Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many full- Council on 15-16 June 2009. The Council conclusions time staff his Department employs at its embassy in expressed strong concern about the violence and use of North Korea. [283316] force against the protesters. Mr. Ivan Lewis: There are four British diplomatic The June European Council released a declaration on staff at our embassy in Pyongyang. Six North Korean 19 June 2009 which also expressed concern about the nationals also work there, under local arrangements by Iranian authorities’ reaction to post-election demonstrations the host Government for the provision of interpreting and called on the Iranian authorities to investigate and maintenance services. allegations of irregularities in the elections. Nuclear Weapons We continue to keep in close touch with our European partners on the issue. Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what progress has Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for been made on the Road to 2010 Plan in respect of the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent non-proliferation treaty review conference; and if he discussions he has had with his Chinese counterpart on will make a statement. [281902] the political situation in Iran. [282306] Mr. Ivan Lewis: Work on the Road to 2010 Plan is Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign progressing well and it remains our intention that it will Secretary has spoken to Chinese Foreign Minister Yang be published this summer. by telephone since the Iranian elections. They agreed Nuclear Weapons: Arms Control that the international community should follow the situation in Iran closely. Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs who will produce the Mrs. McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Government’s Road to 2010 Plan for the 2010 Non- Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Proliferation Treaty Review conference; what items will his Department has made of the safety of British be included in the plan; and if he will make a statement. nationals resident in Iran. [282696] [282054] 289W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 290W

Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Road to 2010 plan is a cross- We continue to maintain contact with the government departmental effort that is co-ordinated by the Cabinet of Sudan and other parties to the conflict to urge them Office. As outlined in my right hon. Friend the Prime to take concrete steps to find a just and lasting solution Minister’s speech at Lancaster House on 17 March to the problems of Darfur. 2009, the plan will set out proposals in the following areas: Terrorism: Compensation The safe expansion of Civil Nuclear in the UK and globally; Fissile Material Security and Nuclear Counter-Terrorism; Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for Disarmament and non-proliferation; and, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much The role and development of the International Atomic Energy compensation has been paid to foreign nationals who Agency and other international institutions. were victims of terrorism in the UK in each year since 1997. [282494]

Sudan: Elections Tessa Jowell: I have been asked to reply as the Minister for Humanitarian Assistance. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority does and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he not maintain records for the nationalities of those to has made to the Sudanese government on the allocation whom it makes criminal injuries compensation awards. of funding to non-governmental organisations to support However, the numbers of awards made under the Criminal the forthcoming elections. [282397] Injuries Compensation Scheme (CICS) to overseas residents who were victims of terrorism in the UK, and the total Mr. Ivan Lewis: We regularly discuss support to elections value of these awards, for the years 1997-98 to 2008-09 with the National Elections Commission (NEC), the are detailed in the following table: body charged by the Sudanese Government with delivering elections. The NEC has not yet finalised the budget for Number of awards made elections, which we expect will include allocations of under the CICS to funding for non-government organisations. individuals with addresses outside the UK Total value of awards (£) We are also in close contact with the UN Development Programme (UNDP), which oversees basket funds provided 1997-98 0 0 by donors to support elections. We want significant 1998-99 0 0 funds to be made available for civic education—the 1999- 00 bulk of these activities would be implemented by non- 2000 government organisations—and we have emphasised 2000-01 1 2,713 this to UNDP. 2001-02 1 3,225 2002-03 0 0 2003-04 0 0 Sudan: Peace Negotiations 2004-05 0 0 2005-06 6 44,001 Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 11 79,807 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assistance 2007-08 16 185,266 his Department has provided to the Doha peace talks 2008-09 3 539,491 on Darfur; what recent steps he has taken to seek to secure progress in those talks; and if he will make a Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [282826] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to which countries he has made representations regarding compensation Mr.IvanLewis:The UK strongly supports the African for British victims of overseas terrorism. [282496] Union/UN political process for Darfur led by Joint Chief Mediator Bassole and welcomes also Qatar’s Mr. Ivan Lewis: An EU Council Directive of 29 April important contribution. We have committed £1 million 2004 requires EU member states to provide fair and to support the process. appropriate compensation to victims of intentional crime We welcomed the signing in Doha on 17 February committed in a member state. Many countries outside 2009 of an initial agreement by the Government of the EU also offer compensation to foreign nationals Sudan and the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM). who are victims of terrorism in their countries. Where We have urged the parties to fully implement the other governments have compensation schemes, we help commitments they made. We support the mediators’ signpost them to families if an offer of compensation intention to engage other Darfur leaders and also civil has not been immediately forthcoming from the country society in further discussions. in which the incident took place. The UK Special Representative for Sudan, together For countries that do not have compensation schemes, with his P5 and EU counterparts, reaffirmed their support we encourage governments to pay compensation to for the Darfur political process in a meeting in Qatar on British victims of overseas terrorism. The issue of 27 May 2009. They jointly urged the Government of compensation schemes has been raised with a number Sudan and JEM to show flexibility, stressed the need for of countries, with the aim of more governments around input from all sectors of Darfuri society, and reiterated the world compensating victims of terrorism, as the calls for all parties to urgently accept the invitation Government does if there is a terrorist incident in extended by the mediators. the UK. 291W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 292W

Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for them, where available, are set out here. Some proposals Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many UK are subject to further consultation and discussion with nationals affected by overseas terrorism have been stakeholders that will have a bearing on the final cost. assisted by exceptional assistance measures since 2006; These estimates do not include public sector staff or and how much each such measure cost. [282498] administration costs, or areas where further work is planned but no policy decision has yet been taken. Mr. Ivan Lewis: Since the Exceptional Assistance As outlined in the report, the main sources of funding Measures were announced to Parliament in June 2008, proposed besides general taxation are a new 50 pence they have been activated for two incidents affecting per month levy on fixed copper lines, the underspend British nationals who have been victims of terrorism on the Digital Television Switchover Help Scheme (subject overseas: to assist the families of those affected by the to further consultation with the BBC Trust), and a Mumbai terrorist attacks in 2008, and more recently to contained contestable element of the TV Licence Fee cover the costs of repatriating the bodies of two British from 2013 onwards, on which a public consultation was nationals who were kidnapped in Iraq in 2007. The launched on 30 June. Foreign and Commonwealth Office provided assistance to the six families affected by these two incidents. The Cost estimates current figure for the Mumbai attacks stands at £7,592 Universal Access to Broadband: estimated cost £200 million, and at £20,000 for the Iraq kidnap repatriation costs. based on current estimates of the Digital Switchover Help Scheme underspend. Other public sector organisations including Western Sahara: Fisheries the devolved authorities and regional development agencies may also contribute over the life of the project. Ms Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for The National Plan for Digital Participation: up to £12 million. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to Next Generation Access Broadband Networks Final Third the answer of 10 March 2009, Official Report, project: to be funded by a centrally held Next Generation column 228W, on Western Sahara: fisheries, if he will Fund raised through a proposed 50p per month levy on fixed make it his policy to seek the inclusion of a reference to copper lines, expected to raise £150-£175 million per year. A Western Sahara in any future proposed agreement further £150,000 is to be made available to help establish an between the EU and Morocco on fisheries. [282868] Independent Networks Cooperative Association. Research: the Technology Strategy Board has committed to Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign fund a £10 million digital test beds programme, and a £30 Secretary has no plans at present to seek the inclusion million digital innovation programme. of a reference to the territory of Western Sahara in any Support for SMEs: up to £23 million over next three years will future EU fisheries agreement with Morocco. be spent on pilot business support interventions for SMEs to Future negotiations on the expiry of the EU-Morocco assist them to exploit advanced ICT to transform their business processes. Fisheries Partnership Agreement (FPA) will take into account any changes in the situation of Western Sahara Cost estimates not yet available that may occur before the FPA’s expiry in 2011. Mobile spectrum refarming: the Government have agreed to meet the costs incurred by broadcasters and Programme Making and Special Events users as a result of spectrum reallocation. Discussions are being held with , the PMSE community CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT and broadcasters to determine the level of costs involved and on what basis, and how, costs will be met. Cultural Heritage: Theft Independently Funded News Consortia: the extent of public funding necessary will depend on the scope of IFNCs and the Mr. Vaizey: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, funding model adopted. Both will be among the issues tested Media and Sport what assessment he has made of the by the planned pilots. findings contained in English Heritage’s Nighthawking Survey; and if he will make a statement. [283268]

Barbara Follett [holding answer 30 June 2009]: English Heritage are preparing a draft implementation plan for English Heritage: Finance how they will respond to the recommendations of the Nighthawking Survey. They expect this to be ready Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, shortly and will work with partners in the historic Media and Sport what income English Heritage has environment sector to implement it in the following derived from the heritage sites it owns and manages in months. the last 12 months; and what proportion of that Digital Switchover: Finance income was used to meet expenditure on (a) site maintenance, (b) publicity and (c) staffing. [282162] Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what estimate he has made of the Barbara Follett: English Heritage advises that its cost to the public purse of implementing the total expenditure on the conservation, maintenance, recommendations made in the Digital Britain report; capital development and operational management of and if he will make a statement. [282859] its property portfolio in 2008-09 was £64.4 million. Earned income was £41.2 million. The following table Mr. Bradshaw: The Digital Britain report makes a shows expenditure for site maintenance, property related number of recommendations that will involve public publicity and staffing of properties as a proportion of expenditure. Estimates of the cost of implementing that income: 293W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 294W

2008-09 believe it will best achieve their, and Sport England’s, Expenditure as a strategic outcomes. These areas will vary from sport to Expenditure proportion of earned sport and region to region. Essex is set to benefit when (£ million) income (percentage) funding is released from the NGBs over the coming Property 11.9 29 year. maintenance It is possible to say, though, that Sport England is Property related 3.3 8 planning to invest £2,338,4111 in sport in Essex for the publicity financial year 2009-10. Property based staff 16.3 39 This includes: The remainder of earned income derived goes towards (i) Community projects funding areas including education, outreach and non-site £ based staff. Basildon Sports Village 500,000 English Heritage: Monuments Southend on Sea Swimming Pool 500,000 Sport at Mark Hall School 278,138 Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Thorpe Bay Yacht Club 67,794 Media and Sport what progress his Department has made in designating intertidal wreck sites as ancient (ii) Sport Unlimited monuments; what recent discussions he has had with Sport Unlimited is an integral part of the Government’s English Heritage on that matter; what plans he has to PE and Sport Strategy for YoungPeople (PESSYP)—the bring forward legislative proposals for the designation five hour offer. The overall aim of Sport Unlimited is to of wreck sites; and what assessment he has made of increase opportunities for Children and Young People the merits of designating the Purton Hulks site, aged five to 19 to participate regularly in sport. Gloucestershire, as an ancient monument. [283169] It will do this by providing a range of attractive and Barbara Follett: Decisions on whether to designate sustainable opportunities in sporting activities for young monuments that meet the criteria set out in the Ancient people from the ‘semi sporty population segment’ to Monuments and Archaeological Areas Act 1979 and take part in out of school hours during term time and the non-statutory criteria set out in PPG 16: Archaeology will focus on out of school hours and ‘club’ activities and Planning are taken on a case-by-case basis. No both within school and community settings. wreck sites in English waters have been designated as In Essex and Castle Point, approximately £344,425 is scheduled monuments since 2004, nor has the Department currently assigned this financial year to deliver projects had recent discussions with English Heritage on the across the city. matter of scheduling intertidal wreck sites. (iii) Step into Sport The site of the Purton Hulks is already afforded Focuses on young people aged 14 to 19, giving them statutory protection as it lies within the Severn estuary opportunities to become involved in sports leadership Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI). It is therefore and volunteering and encouraging them to continue already subject to statutory controls in respect of nature this into later life. The programme is funded by the conservation interests. English Heritage recently met Department of Culture, Media and Sport as part of the Natural England, British Waterways and local stakeholders PESSYP strategy, which is revitalising PE and school specifically to address co-ordinated management of the sport across the country. Essex has been awarded £22,000 site, and to define the significance of the assemblage of for 2009-10. vessels. (iv) Free Swimming Legislative proposals for reforming the designation of marine heritage assets, including wreck sites, are Castle Point has been allocated £110,062 of funding included in the draft Heritage Protection Bill. We remain under the Free Swimming Programme and Colchester committed to bringing this forward at the earliest borough council have been awarded £105,705 of funding opportunity. for the refurbishment of fitness pool facilities at Colchester Leisure World. Sport: Essex 1 This is taken from Sport England’s annual projected cash flow and may not be the actual figure at the end of this financial year as some organisations may not draw down the required funds Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, until 2010-11. Media and Sport how much funding his Department plans to provide for sport-related activities in (a) Essex Sports: Public Participation and (b) Castle Point in 2009-10. [282563] Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Sutcliffe: Sport England have advised that the Culture, Media and Sport which types of activity are total projected investment in sport in Essex and Castle included in his Department’s target of getting two Point cannot be determined at this point. million people more active ahead of the London 2012 Sport England has recently invested £120 million in Olympic Games. [273292] national governing bodies (NGBs) of sport to deliver grassroots sport in the community for the period 2009-10. Mr. Sutcliffe: There is a cross-departmental commitment The NGBs are defining what they need for their sport at to get 2 million more people more active, with my a national, regional and sub- regional level to ensure Department, through Sport England, primarily responsible more people play and enjoy their sport. Investment will for getting 1 million more people playing more sport as in turn be directed by NGBs into areas where they part of this. Activities are included within this 1 million 295W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 296W target on the basis that they are recognised as sports by Tang Soo Do the Home Country Sports Councils, and that each can Aikaido be performed at least at moderate intensity. The following Kendo list gives details of these activities and their eligibility: Self defence Equestrian Swimming/diving Horse riding Swimming—deep water Horse riding—dressage Swimming—open water Horse riding—pony trekking Swimming/diving (indoors) Horse riding—show jumping Swimming/diving (outdoors) Horse riding—three day eventing Diving—deep water/free3 1 Harness racing Athletics Trotting1 Athletics—field Polo Athletics—track Climbing/mountaineering Canoeing/kayaking Climbing—ice Kayaking1 Climbing—indoor/wall climbing Kayaking—whitewater1 Climbing—rock/rock climbing Canoe polo1 Climbing—rope Canoeing1 Climbing—solo Gym/fitness activities Climbing—sport Gym Abseiling1 Aerobics/step aerobics Mountaineering Body attack Mountaineering—high altitude Body balance Bouldering1 Body building Caving/pot holing1 Body combat/cardio kick Hockey Body jam Hockey—field Body pump Hockey—ice Body step Hockey—roller Body Vive Hockey—street Exercise bike/exercise machine/spinning class Sailing Skipping Sailing (cruising or racing)— catamaran and multihull Boxercise Sailing (cruising or racing)—dinghy Conditioning activities/circuit training/assault course/stretching/ Sailing (cruising or racing)—ice toning Sailing (cruising or racing)—keelboat Cross training Sailing (cruising or racing)—other Dance exercise Yachting—land1 Health and fitness Yachting (cruising or racing)—ice Step machine/Air walker/airwalk/airwalker Yachting (cruising or racing)—inshore/coastal Keepfit/keep fit/sit ups Yachting (cruising or racing)—ocean Yog a 2 Yachting (cruising or racing)—offshore Pilates2 Yachting (cruising or racing)—other Weight training Windsurfing or boardsailing Aquafit/Aquacise/Aqua aerobics/aqua aerobics/aqua fit/water Jet ski-ing/aquabike/personal water craft3 aerobics1 Running and jogging Walking Running—cross country/beach/fell running Walking—cliff1 Running—road Walking—gorge1 Running—track Walking—hill walking1 Running—ultra marathon Walking/power walking1 Jogging Rambling1 Martial Arts Hill trekking1 Judo Snowsports Ju-jitsu Ski flying Kabaddi1 Skiing Karate Skiing—barefoot snow Martial arts Skiing—barefoot water Martial arts—Chinese Skiing—extreme Taekwondo Skiing—free Tai Chi Skiing—grass or dry ski slope 297W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 298W

Skiing—mono Rallying Skiing-parachute Road racing (motors) Skiing—ribbing Trials racing Skiing—speed Karting Snowboarding Go Karting Telemark Auto Cross Cycling Motorcycling—speedway Recreational Cycling3 Drag racing Cycling3 Autotests Cyclo-cross3 Hill Climb Mountain biking3 Air sports BMX3 Sky diving Bicycle polo Soaring1 Football Parachuting1 Football/soccer (include 5 and 6-a-side and 11-a-side) (indoors) Paragliding1 Football/soccer (include 5 and 6-a-side and 11-a-side) (outdoors) Gliding1 Futsal1 Hang-gliding1 Racquet sports Gymnastics Squash Gymnastics Racketball Trampolining/trampoline1 Badminton Baseball/softball Tennis/real tennis/short tennis Softball Rugby Baseball Rugby League Other aquatic sports Rugby Union Sub aqua/SCUBA diving1 Tag rugby Snorkelling1 Touch rugby Hockey—underwater Wrestling Octopush1 Wrestling—Cumberland1 Water polo1 Wrestling—freestyle/sumo wrestling1 Other team sports/activities Wrestling—Greco Roman1 American football Wrestling— Olympic1 Australian Rules Gaelic sports Football1 Gaelic football Basketball Gaelic sports Bowls3 Hurling Camogie Irish handball Cricket Curling Dodgeball1 Wheelchair sports Fives—rugby1 Wheelchair sports—archery1 Netball Wheelchair sports—basketball1 Rounders Wheelchair sports—rugby1 Stoolball Wheelchair sports—table tennis1 Ultimate Frisbee1 Wheelchair sports—tennis1 Volleyball Motorsports Floorball1 Motorcycling—motorcross Polocrosse1 Motorcycling—off road Tug of war1 Motorcycling—trail riding Handball1 Motor racing/banger racing Korfball1 Motor sprints Lacrosse Motorcycling—trials riding Other sports Motorcycling—enduro Angling1 Motorcycling—super moto Archery2 Motorcycling—track racing Arm wrestling1 Motorcycling—drag/sprint Baton twirling Motorcycling—rallying Biathlon Motorcycling—sidecar racing Body boarding1 Rally Cross Bobsleigh1 299W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 300W

Boccia1 Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Boxing Development (DFID) has worked with partners such as Cheerleading the World Food Programme (WFP) to respond quickly Croquet2 to the changing humanitarian situation in Afghanistan. Dragon boat racing1 Since January 2008, DFID has committed £22.5 million Fencing to support those worst affected by high food prices and Fives—Eton1 drought. £17 million of our support was channelled through emergency appeals led by the WFP. These Frisby/Frisbee1 funds helped reach 8.7 million vulnerable people. Golf/pitch and putt/putting High wire1 The 2009 Humanitarian Action Plan for Afghanistan Highland Games1 was launched on 3 February 2009. Led by the United Nations, it represents a major step towards a coherent Hovering1 and prioritised strategy to alleviate the pressing Ice skating humanitarian needs of the Afghan people. The plan 1 Kite surfing/kite boarding will help guide DFID’s response to future humanitarian Life saving appeals. It is available on the UN Office for the Luge1 Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs website: 1 Luge—street http://ochaonline.un.org/ Medau1 1 Mine exploration Bangladesh: Overseas Aid Modern pentathlon1 Orienteering 1 Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Powerboat racing for International Development what assessment he has Powerlifting made of the implications for his Department’s aid Rafting/white water rafting1 programmes for agriculture and development in Roller blading/roller skating1 Bangladesh of the Tipaimukh Dam construction Rowing project; and if he will make a statement. [282798] Sea fishing1 Skateboarding Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Skating—in-line/inline skating Development (DFID) has not carried out an assessment Sombo of the impacts of the Tipaimukh hydro-electric dam on Surfing/boardsurfing/board surfing1 our aid to agriculture and development in Bangladesh. Surf life saving It is an issue for the Governments of India and Bangladesh. Sportsboats1 DFID is supporting, with the World Bank, the South Asia Water Initiative which enables a process of dialogue Table tennis1 1 among south Asian countries on common rivers and Tobogganing/sledging/sledding dispute resolution. Triathlon 1 Wake boarding/wakeboarding Departmental Manpower Waterskiing Weightlifting Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Respondents are asked about the intensity they did the activity International Development whether any full-time at and only included if at least moderate intensity. All other sports on the list above are automatically classified as at least equivalent members of staff in (a) his Department and moderate intensity. (b) its associated public bodies are working on projects 2 Included in the ‘1 million’ indicator—for people aged 65 and relating to the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic over Games. [283161] 3 To contribute to the ‘1 million’ indicator cycling activity must be undertaken for at least once a week, 30 minutes, moderate intensity Mr. Michael Foster: There are no full-time equivalent members of staff in the Department for International Examples of activities that will contribute to the Development (DFID) working exclusively on projects wider, cross-Government target to get 2 million people relating to the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic more active are outlined in Be Active Be Healthy on the Games. Department of Health website: http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/ DFID’s involvement in the games is through providing Publications/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_094358 funding to the International Inspiration Programme, which is co-ordinated by the UK Government’s Olympic Executive. As DFID does not manage the International Inspiration Programme directly, only a small amount of INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT one full-time equivalent staff member’s time is spent on monitoring the project management of the initiative. Afghanistan: Overseas Aid

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Pay International Development what recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his Department’s John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for humanitarian aid to Afghanistan; and if he will make a International Development which (a) sections of his statement. [282682] Department and (b) non-departmental public bodies 301W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 302W for which he is responsible have requested money saved Development Aid from efficiency savings to be used for increased pay in their 2009 pay offers to staff. [282895] Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what resources his Mr. Michael Foster: No sections or non-departmental Department has committed to developing countries for public bodies of the Department for International (a) improving maternal health and (b) address sexual Development (DFID) have asked for monies gained and reproductive (i) health and (ii) rights in each of the from efficiency savings to be used for pay increases in next three years. [282514] the 2009 pay offer to staff. Mr. Michael Foster: The UK Government are committed Departmental Public Expenditure to spending £6 billion on strengthening health systems and services over the seven years to 2015. The Department Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International for International Development’s (DFID) country-led Development pursuant to the answer of 20 April 2009, development approach is to support recipient governments Official Report, column 485W, on departmental public to spend development assistance on the priorities they expenditure, which projects funded by the Returns and set themselves for helping their people out of poverty. Reintegration Fund counted as official development These priorities are identified by analysis of the key assistance; what the cost of each project was; and if he health needs within countries—including sexual, will make a statement. [272379] reproductive and maternal health and rights. Direct support to governments is complimented by support to Mr. Ivan Lewis: I have been asked to reply. civil society and other implementing partners. One Returns and Reintegration Fund project counts as official development assistance. The Rehabilitation Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for and Reintegration of Offenders and Deported Persons International Development what plans he has to fund programme supports the Jamaican Department for programmes for the (a) screening and (b) treatment of Correctional Services in rehabilitating and reintegrating ante-natal syphilis in developing countries; and if he Jamaican ex-offenders including former Jamaican prisoners will make a statement. [282515] returning from the UK. The project’s aim is to reduce reoffending and improve security in Jamaica, and thereby Mr. Michael Foster: The UK Government are investing to remove one of the main constraints to long-term £6 billion up to 2015 to strengthen health systems that economic development. will help to ensure that women in poor countries have The total budget for this three year project is £2.97 access to quality reproductive health care. million, with £2.035 million currently being financed The focus of Department for International Development from the fund. Project spend in financial year 2008-09 (DFID) supported health system strengthening is to was approximately £170,000. ensure that evidence-based, cost-effective interventions— such as syphilis screening and treatment in antenatal Departmental Publications care—are accessible to all who need them. The International Health Partnership, which was Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International launched by the Prime Minister in September 2007, will Development when he plans to publish his Department’s help ensure that donor resources are better co-ordinated, forthcoming White Paper on International Development that they back strong national health development plans [282552] and that they focus on strengthening health systems to deliver better services and improved health outcomes. Mr. : The forthcoming White Paper on International Development will be laid before Parliament Gaza prior to the summer recess.

Developing Countries: Languages Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what his most recent assessment is of the humanitarian situation in Gaza; and if he will Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [282495] International Development what recent discussions he has had on the promotion of regional languages in developing countries. [282317] Mr. Michael Foster: The recent conflict intensified an already difficult humanitarian situation in Gaza. While Mr. Ivan Lewis: I have been asked to reply. the pace of deterioration has slowed since the ceasefire in January, the humanitarian situation remains extremely As the Government Department responsible for policy serious. on international human rights, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office encourages governments to protect Most basic foodstuffs are now available in Gaza. the rights of all their citizens, including those belonging However, high prices and access restrictions on many to minorities. We regularly raise the situation of those other food items mean that around 90 per cent. of belonging to minorities in countries where we judge Gazans are still partly dependent on food aid. that protection of their rights is lacking. Our approach Success of the humanitarian response and early recovery is guided in particular by Article 27 of the International effort requires opening of the crossings from Israel in Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Council order to allow movement of materials and personnel of Europe’s Framework Convention for the Protection into Gaza. The UK continues to press the Israeli of National Minorities. Government on this issue. 303W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 304W

India: Overseas Aid Pakistan: International Assistance

Lorely Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if he will make it his policy International Development what recent estimate has to fund rehabilitation and community development projects been made of the number of humanitarian (a) groups in Kandmahal, Orissa State, India. [282866] and (b) workers operating in Peshawar; and what recent assessment has been made of their capacity to Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International meet the need for humanitarian assistance in that Development (DFID) is providing £10 million for region. [281906] community development in Orissa through the Tribal Empowerment and Livelihoods Programme (OTELP) Mr. Michael Foster: There are approximately 55 from 2004-10. So far, OTELP has helped increase incomes, international humanitarian agencies working in the North reduce malnutrition and improve water and sanitation West Frontier Province supporting those displaced by for over 375,000 tribal men and women in four districts, conflict. Many of these agencies have staff based or including Kandmahal. visiting Peshawar, but most are primarily based in Islamabad. The Department for International Development (DFID) has not made an estimate of the number of Maternal Health Strategy humanitarian workers based in Peshawar as it is not an effective indicator of humanitarian capacity for operating in North West Frontier Province (NWFP) more generally. Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what progress his Department has made on preparing its forthcoming annual update Parliamentary Questions: Government Responses on the implementation of its maternal health strategy; and if he will make a statement. [282476] Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development when he plans to answer Question 272379, Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International on official development assistance, tabled on 28 April Development’s (DFID) strategy “Reducing maternal 2009. [282564] deaths: evidence and action” was published in September 2004. Three progress reports have been published since Mr. Michael Foster: Question 272379 has been transferred then—in December 2005, April 2007 and June 2008. to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office for answer. A We will update our existing maternal health strategy response will be issued shortly. and incorporate into this our existing position paper on Sexual and Reproductive Health and Rights (published Sri Lanka: International Assistance July 2004). In producing the updated strategy will we draw on our experience to date of implementing our existing strategy and the information in our three progress Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for reports. We have also commissioned an evidence paper International Development what recent estimate has to inform our thinking which should be completed in been made of the number of (a) aid agencies and (b) autumn 2009. humanitarian workers operating in camps for displaced people in northern Sri Lanka; and if he will make a statement. [282821] Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how he plans to consult stakeholders in the fields of (a) sexual and Mr. Michael Foster: In Vavuniya District, where the reproductive rights and (b) HIV/AIDS in preparing majority of internally displaced people (IDPs) are located, his Department’s annual update on the implementation as of 28 June, the Department for International of its maternal health strategy. [282477] Development (DFID) estimates that there are approximately 40 local non-governmental organisations (NGOs), Mr. Michael Foster: Earlier this year the Department 27 international NGOs, 11 UN agencies, two donor for International Development (DFID) held an initial missions and four Red Cross entities (Sri Lanka Red stakeholder workshop on the development of the new Cross Society, International Committee of the Red strategy with representatives from across the sexual and Cross, Canadian Red Cross and German Red Cross). reproductive health and rights, maternal health and As many of these organisations have staff who also HIV and AIDS communities. The feedback from this work in other districts it is difficult to estimate numbers event confirmed our view that the new strategy should of workers, but at any one time there may be between cover both Millennium Development Goal 5 targets (5a 500 and 1,000 workers engaged in humanitarian activities to reduce maternal mortality and 5b to provide universal in Vavuniya District, not counting daily labourers. access to reproductive health). Thailand and Burma In producing the updated strategy will we draw on our experience to date of implementing our existing strategy and the information in our three progress reports. Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for We have also commissioned an evidence paper to inform International Development what recent discussions he our thinking which should be completed in autumn has had with the government of Thailand on the 2009. We will continue to consult with interested welfare and living conditions of people who have left stakeholders as we move forward with the strategy eastern Burma owing to the renewed military operation development. in that region; and if he will make a statement. [282837] 305W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 306W

Mr. Michael Foster: Staff based in the British embassy Angela E. Smith: We recognise there is a double in Bangkok have been in contact with the Thai Ministry challenge for the sector during the economic downturn—an of the Interior, and with non-governmental organisations increased demand for services and concerns about their working on the Thailand-Burma border, about the welfare financial viability. and living conditions of recently arrived refugees from In response to that we have provided a significant eastern Burma. package of support for the third sector of up to Humanitarian assistance for the refugees is being £42.5 million of targeted support which is delivering provided by the Thai authorities, the United Nations real help now, plus the £16.7 million hardship fund High Commissioner for Refugees and non-governmental announced in the Budget in April, plus the £1.2 billion organisations. This assistance includes food, plastic sheeting future jobs fund which the sector will have a share in. for shelter, blankets, bed-nets and medical care. Planning This comprehensive package of measures includes is under way to prepare a new site in Thailand to support for volunteers, grants to small organisations, accommodate the refugees. social enterprises, support for jobs and loans to assist The Department for International Development plans partnership working. to provide about £7.4 million over the next three years to support Burmese refugees in Thailand and internally Business Disruption Plans displaced people inside Burma. 11. Greg Mulholland: To ask the Minister for the Mr. Lidington: To ask the Secretary of State for Cabinet Office what steps her Department is taking as International Development what his most recent part of its civil contingencies responsibilities to assessment is of the humanitarian situation on the increase the proportion of small businesses which have Thai-Burmese border. [282501] a business disruption plan. [283148]

Mr. Michael Foster: Latest estimates from the Tessa Jowell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Government of Thailand, the United Nations High gave earlier today. Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) and non- Emergency Planning College governmental organisations (NGOs) suggest that about 3,200 refugees have recently entered Thailand to escape fighting in eastern Burma. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Immediate humanitarian assistance for the refugees Office when she last visited her Department’s Emergency is being provided by the Thai authorities, the United Planning College to discuss its work; and if she will Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and non- make a statement. [277326] governmental organisations. This assistance includes food, plastic sheeting for shelter, blankets, bed-nets and Tessa Jowell: I was appointed as Minister for the medical care. Planning is underway to prepare a new Cabinet Office on 5 June 2009 and have not yet visited site in Thailand to accommodate the refugees. the Emergency Planning college. The Department for International Development plans I will receive regular updates from the head of the to provide about £7.4 million over the next three years civil contingencies secretariat on all civil contingencies to support Burmese refugees in Thailand and internally matters. displaced people inside Burma. Lobbying: Government

Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what recent assessment she has made of the CABINET OFFICE adequacy of the level of information which is published Charities: Economic Downturn about relations between Government and lobbyists. [283138]

10. Malcolm Bruce: To ask the Minister for the Angela E. Smith: Ministers meet many people as part Cabinet Office what her Department’s latest assessment of the process of policy development and analysis. All is of the effects of the recession on charities. [283147] such contacts are conducted in accordance with the “”. Angela E. Smith: In recognition of the challenges for the challenges for the sector during the recession, we The Government are currently considering a have provided a significant package of support for the recommendation from the Public Administration Select third sector of up to £42.5 million of targeted support, Committee on this issue and will respond shortly. plus the £16.7 million hardship fund announced in the Budget in April, plus the £1.2 billion future jobs fund which the sector will have a share in. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES This comprehensive package of measures includes support for volunteers, grants to small organisations, Apprentices social enterprises, support for jobs, and loans to assist partnership working. Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many people in apprenticeships Danny Alexander: To ask the Minister for the became unemployed in (a) the last six months for Cabinet Office what her Department’s latest assessment which figures are available and (b) the six-month period is of the effects of the recession on charities. [283140] a year before that six-month period. [281435] 307W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 308W

Kevin Brennan: We do not currently hold data centrally Hebrides Range about the total number of apprentices made redundant. Arrangements are in place from 1 August 2009 onwards Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland to record the number of apprentices who are made whether he has had discussions with the Secretary of redundant. Working with the Learning and Skills Council State for Defence on the relocation of operations away (LSC) we have established a matching service to help from the Hebrides Range. [282573] apprentices at risk of redundancy to find alternative employment and to complete their apprenticeship. More Mr. Jim Murphy: I discuss a variety of issues with generally, providers and the LSC have procedures to Ministry of Defence ministerial colleagues including advise and relocate apprentices, in cases where providers the Secretary of State. I also hosted a meeting of the or employers fail, to help ensure that Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence they are able to continue in work and complete their (Mr. Davies) and the Western Isles Council established apprenticeship. The £140 million package announced task group today at Dover House. by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister for an additional 35,000 apprenticeship places will help fund new provision in both the public sector and private sector, and will extend the opportunities available to COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT people facing redundancy. Business: Government Assistance

Departmental Older Workers Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many small Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for businesses in (a) Tamworth constituency and (b) the Children, Schools and Families how many staff in his West Midlands claimed relief under the Small Business Department will reach the age of 65 years by the year Rate Relief Scheme in the most recent period for which 2011. [283364] figures are available. [283230]

Ms Diana R. Johnson: In the Department, 29 of Ms : Tamworth borough council reported existing employees will be 65 or older by 2011. that the number of businesses receiving small business rate relief was 422 at 31 December 2006, the latest date Further Education: Standards for which data are available. At the same date, the number of businesses in the West Midlands receiving small business rate relief was 40,138. Data are not Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, available at constituency level. Schools and Families what steps have been taken to ensure consistent (a) assessment, (b) recording and Council of Regional Ministers (c) quality assurance of educational standards in the 14-19 diplomas. [282880] Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government when the Mr. : Diplomas come under the responsibility Council of Regional Ministers last met. [283136] of the independent regulator of qualifications and examinations, Ofqual. Ofqual has responsibility to protect Ms Rosie Winterton: The Council of Regional Ministers, the interests of learners by ensuring that results are fair which meets every six weeks or so, last met on 16 June and accurate and that assessment and standards are 2009. appropriately established and comparable across awarding bodies. Council Tax: Appeals I have asked the Chief Regulator to write to my hon. Friend to set out the steps taken in relation to Diploma Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment, recording and quality assurance. Communities and Local Government how many council tax appeals the Valuation Tribunal Service has considered in each of the last five years; and how many resulted in a change to a lower band for the dwelling in question. [282751] SCOTLAND Ms Rosie Winterton: The Valuation Tribunal Service Departmental Pay (VTS) has held information centrally on the number of successful appeals since the beginning of 2006-07 in John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for England. Scotland which sections of his Department have requested money saved from efficiency savings to be Number of Number of council tax used for increased pay in their 2009 pay offer to staff. Number of council tax appeals Number of [283214] council tax appeals allowed or decisions appeals considered allowed in resulting in Ann McKechin: All staff in the Scotland Office are on received by tribunals part a lower band secondment from the Scottish Executive or the Ministry 2004-05 24,422 n/a n/a n/a of Justice who each have separate pay awards in place 2005-06 21,805 n/a n/a n/a for their employees. The Office only reimburses those 2006-07 27,130 5,274 646 n/a Departments for the costs involved. 2007-08 34,340 8,666 1,056 n/a 309W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 310W

Number of Recommendation Action Number of council tax Number of council tax appeals Number of council tax appeals allowed or decisions Recommendations 6 and The Empowerment Fund is appeals considered allowed in resulting in 7—Work with Third Sector on funding third sector received by tribunals part a lower band Councillor Communications organisations Urban Forum and Bassac over three years from 2008-09 6,950 5,624 887 722 2009-10 to 2011-12 to carry out n/a = Not available work under the theme of improving communications Appeals to the VTS can be made about matters other between councillors and than a property’s banding. The VTS has held information citizens. centrally on whether appeals resulted in a change of Recommendation 11—Black, This was launched in May 2008. banding only since 2008-09. Asian and Minority Ethnic 13 outreach events have been (BAME) Women Councillors held across the country to date Council tax policy in Wales is a matter for the Welsh Taskforce reaching over 800 women. In Assembly Government. April 2009, the first national councillor mentoring/shadowing scheme was launched as part of Councillors the Taskforce project. This scheme is for 50 women with an additional 50 places on an Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for e-training learning programme to obtain a community Communities and Local Government what the timetable leadership qualification. is for implementation of each proposal contained in his Department’s response to the Councillors Commission. Recommendations 12, 30 and Consultation on this finished in 46—Revise the publicity code mid March. Consultation [282746] and associated guidance included a question on whether specific guidance on councillors’ Ms Rosie Winterton: The Councillors Commission support needs to be clarified. Report ‘Representing the Future’ published in December Government are currently looking at the consultation 2007 made a number of recommendations aimed at findings and will decide what, if central Government and a range of other partners and any, revisions are to be made stakeholders. We published a response to ‘Representing and the timetable for any the Future’ in July 2008 which set out who was taking revisions. forward which recommendations and how. Recommendations 13, 14—New QCA are currently running a The Local Government Association, Improvement Secondary curriculum and consultation on proposed revision of Primary curriculum; reforms to the primary and Development Agency and the Leadership Centre Young Mayors and Young curriculum including citizenship for local government are taking forward the following Advisors - the consultation closes on actions, which were aimed at local authorities: 24 July 2009. From January Raising awareness of councils and councillors and what they 2010, schools will be assisted with implementation by a do comprehensive support package Support for councillors’ role as a link between the local authority to aid them in planning for the and the community new curriculum. The new curriculum began rolling out in Role descriptions for councillors secondary schools from Engagement with young people September 2008, beginning with Training and support for councillors and potential councillors Key Stage 3. Changes to the Key Stage 4 curriculum begin Promoting the councillor role to employers rolling out in September 2009 in Recognising and accrediting service line with changes to GCSEs. Young Mayors: CLG will be Exit interviews for councillors inviting applications in July Better allowance information. from local authorities who would like to host a Young Other recommendations were aimed specifically at Mayor scheme. Details of political parties, the BBC and Ofcom, and employers successful applicants will be and we trust that they are taking forward their commitments announced in late August. Young Advisors: CLG has in response to these. supported the Young Advisors The Government are taking forward the following Charity to extend the Young Advisors scheme to more local actions. areas. There are now 41 schemes operating across the country at Recommendation Action a local level with around 400 trained Young Advisors. Recommendation 1—Introduce This is being taken forward in a statutory duty to promote the Local Democracy, Recommendation 23—Revising Amendments to the democracy Economic Development and politically restricted posts Widdicombe rules removing the Construction Bill (Clauses 1-9) salary bar have been taken which recently completed forward in the Local Committee stage in the House Democracy, Economic of Commons. We intend for the Development and Construction duty to be implemented in April Bill, which is currently being 2010. considered by Parliament. 311W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 312W

(b) the prioritisation of applications from individuals Recommendation Action in urgent need of adaptations to their homes and (c) Recommendation 29—Work The CAA guidance for levels of compliance with target times for delivery under with audit commission on inspectorate staff makes specific the scheme; and if he will take steps to ensure that CAAs to consider how council reference in its section on uprating of DFG funding allocations by his Department leadership reflects the empowerment to the Network community of Empowering Authorities is implemented by local authorities administering the framework, which provides a scheme. [283193] benchmark for an ‘ideal’ authority. The framework Mr. Ian Austin: The Housing Grants Construction includes ‘strong democracy’ as a and Regeneration Act 1996 sets the legislative framework key success factor setting out that an ideal authority would be for the Disabled Facilities Grant programme and it is where ’community involvement for the local housing authority to assess the need of a encourages more people to take disabled person for housing adaptations in the light of on governance roles and stand the mandatory entitlements. Local authorities are for office. Members and officers responsible for the local management and administration proactively promote democracy, raising understanding and of the programme and have increased discretion to awareness among citizens and make local decisions. young people’. The It is a condition of payment of every grant that the accompanying diagnostic eligible works are carried out within 12 months from questions include: ‘Does the profile of your Members reflect the date of approval of the application concerned. If that of your local population?’ local authorities act incorrectly a complaint can be Recommendation In addition to work being made to the local government ombudsman after the 51—Accreditation developed by the local correct complaint procedures have been made to the government sector, we are council. taking forward a review of accreditation as part of the Take Local authorities are required to complete an annual Part programme of work. A claim and monitoring form to the Department and review was completed in maintain financial records which are subject to auditing February 2009 and proposals requirements. This includes information on the level of for taking forward an contribution claimed from central Government and accreditation programme are being currently being levels of expenditure. considered. Recommendation 52-- During the passage of the Local Empty Property Alderwomen Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill (LDEDC Bill) an Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Opposition amendment was laid Communities and Local Government how many empty in the House of Lords regarding properties there are in each region. [281935] the use of the title “alderwomen” and this is now included in the Bill. Mr. Ian Austin: The total number of empty dwellings Recommendation 56—Parish The Department is funding reported by local authorities in England, by region, as and Town Councillors NALC to conduct an annual at 6 October 2008, are shown as follows. survey of the profiles of parish councillors, including analysis Region Number of empty dwellings and dissemination. Councils that have achieved Quality North East 50,623 Status (over 650) will be North West 137,849 surveyed in 2009-10 and all Yorkshire and the Humber 102,241 parish councils (over 9,000) in 2010-11. East Midlands 76,956 West Midlands 79,848 Provisions for loss of office payments, remote attendance East of England 75,198 at council meetings and remote voting, and voting London 85,924 incentives were originally to be included in a draft South East 105,111 Community Empowerment Bill. Given the stage of the South West 70,272 parliamentary cycle, we have decided to concentrate our Total England 784,022 energy on the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Bill, which contains the major proposals Information about the number of empty non-domestic from the Councillors Commission, and not to publish a properties is currently being collected and will be published draft Empowerment Bill. We therefore have no current later in the year. plans for legislation to implement these proposals. Homelessness Disabled Facilities Grants Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Communities and Local Government how many private and Local Government what steps his Department is dwellings were being leased by (a) registered social taking to monitor the delivery by local authorities of landlords and (b) local authorities for the purpose of the Disabled Facilities Grant (DFG) scheme in relation housing homeless households in the latest quarter for to (a) levels of local authority contributions to DFG, which figures are available. [280293] 313W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 314W

Mr. Ian Austin: Information about English local housing Housing Revenue Accounts authorities’ actions under the homelessness legislation (part 7 of the Housing Act 1996) is collected quarterly Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for at local authority level. Communities and Local Government what the net subsidy Data collected includes the number of households paid to each local authority from the Housing Revenue accepted by local housing authorities as eligible for Account was in each of the last three years. [282658] assistance, unintentionally homeless and in priority need, and therefore owed a main homelessness duty (to secure Mr. Ian Austin: The information requested has been that suitable accommodation is available). If a settled deposited in the Library. home is not immediately available, the authority must secure temporary accommodation until a settled home becomes so. Housing: Construction The number of households housed in temporary accommodation by local authorities as at the last day of Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for each quarter, is also collected. This figure consists of Communities and Local Government what eligibility those households which have been accepted as owed the criteria apply to (a) developers and (b) social landlords main homelessness duty; those for which inquiries are in respect of assistance under the Kickstart housing pending; those being accommodated for a limited period delivery scheme. [282412] because they have been found intentionally homeless and in priority need; those being accommodated pending : Full details on the eligibility criteria for possible referral to another authority; and those being the Kickstart housing delivery scheme is included in the accommodated pending the outcome of a local authority guidance notes for the scheme and published on the review or county court appeal. HCA website at: The latest figures for the number of households housed http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/kickstart_housing in temporary accommodation leased from the private sector by (a) registered social landlords and (b) local Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities authorities are shown as follows: and Local Government how many new homes were Number of households in temporary accommodation arranged under built in (a) North West Cambridgeshire constituency, homelessness legislation, leased from the private sector by registered (b) Huntingdonshire and (c) Peterborough in each of social landlords (RSLs) and local authorities (LAs), as at 31 March 2009 the last eight quarters. [283412] Type of temporary accommodation Number of households Mr. Ian Austin: Information on house building completions is not available by constituency. Private sector leased by RSL 11,700 Private sector leased by LA 25,750 The following table shows the number of new homes Source: built in Peterborough and Huntingdonshire in each of CLG P1E returns (quarterly) the last eight quarters.

2007 2008 2009 April to July to October to January to July to October to January to Local authority June September December March April to June September December March

Huntingdonshire 141 123 186 83 195 156 151 139 District Council Peterborough City 324 184 207 214 230 168 154 126 Council UA Source: New build completions from P2 quarterly returns submitted by local authorities and the National House-Building Council to CLG.

Housing: Crosby Number

Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State 2004-05 17,910 for Communities and Local Government how many 2005-06 20,620 homes classified as energy-efficient have been built in Crosby constituency in each of the last five years. 2006-07 18,070 2007-08 20,310 [282519] 2008-09 13,700 Mr. Ian Austin: All new homes built in England in the last five years have been required to meet the energy efficiency standards set out in Part L of the Building The Government’s Standard Assessment Procedure Regulations. The Part L standard for new homes was (SAP) provides an energy rating for new dwellings by raised by 25 per cent. in 2002 and by a further 20 per demonstrating compliance with Part L of the Building cent. in 2006. This requirement will progressively increase Regulations. In general, homes built to current Part L leading up to the target for all new homes to be zero correspond with SAP ratings of B or C. Some homes carbon from 2016. The following table shows the total are built to exceed minimum regulatory standards, for number of new build dwellings in the north-west region example as a result of building to the Code for Sustainable for each year from 2004-05 onwards. Homes. 315W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 316W

Housing: Energy Housing: Prices

Jeff Ennis: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for and Local Government how many homes classified as Communities and Local Government (1) in which local energy-efficient have been built in Barnsley East and authorities in England the average house price is above Mexborough constituency in each of the last five years. £225,000; [282398] [282790] (2) whether his Department plans to increase the valuation cap under the Mortgage Rescue Scheme. Mr. Ian Austin: All new homes built in England in the [282411] last five years have been required to meet the energy efficiency standards set out in Part L of the Building Regulations. The Part L standard for new homes was John Healey: The property price cap for the Mortgage raised by 25 per cent. in 2002 and by a further 20 per Rescue Scheme is not set at one national value; the cap cent. in 2006. This requirement will progressively increase varies regionally to reflect the differing level of property leading up to the target for all new homes to be zero prices. These regional property price caps for the Mortgage carbon from 2016. The following table shows the total Rescue Scheme have been set with reference to Q4 2008 number of new build dwellings in the Yorkshire and lower quartile property prices, reflecting the aim of the Humberside region for each year from 2004-2005 onwards. scheme to provide targeted support for vulnerable households at risk of homelessness. The level of the Number caps was increased on 1 May and is now at least 150 per cent. of lower quartile property prices in each region 2004-05 14,190 which are comparable to average house prices in all 2005-06 16,040 English regions. We have no plans to increase the caps 2006-07 16,250 further. Housing Associations already have flexibility to 2007-08 15,670 exceed the cap if appropriate depending on households’ 2008-09 11,250 individual circumstances. In the current economic conditions, we have acted The Government’s Standard Assessment Procedure rapidly to put in place help and support for households (SAP) provides an energy rating for new dwellings by struggling with their mortgage at every stage: from free demonstrating compliance with Part L of the Building debt advice when problems start, to free support for Regulations. In general, homes built to current Part L cases that reach court. Advice is available to all households correspond with SAP ratings of B or C. Some homes struggling with their mortgage, with targeted schemes are built to exceed minimum regulatory standards, for for those in most need. example as a result of building to the Code for Sustainable Homes. Data on average house prices at a local authority SAP is used to generate Energy Performance Certificates level are published quarterly by CLG and can be viewed (EPCs) for new build dwellings. From 6 April 2008, it online at: became mandatory to lodge all SAP EPCs for new http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/table- build dwellings on the England and Wales Domestic 581.xls EPC Register. In the constituency of Barnsley East and Mexborough 177 SAP EPC lodgements were made in Invest to Save Budget 2008 and 47 SAP EPC lodgements have been made in 2009 up to and including 25 June. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Housing: Low Incomes Communities and Local Government (1) how many Invest to Save bids his Department sponsored in each Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for of the last five years; what the total monetary value of Communities and Local Government what criteria such bids was; and what proportion of such bids were apply in respect of the release of funds by HomeBuy related to housing projects; [282611] Zone Agents under the HomeBuy Direct scheme. (2) how much (a) his Department and (b) his [282408] Department’s non-departmental public bodies received from Invest to Save budgets in each of the last five John Healey: The Homes and Communities Agency years. [282612] are responsible for releasing funds for the HomeBuy Direct scheme. HomeBuy agents are responsible for Ms Rosie Winterton: The Department has received assessing an applicant’s eligibility for the HomeBuy no funding for non-departmental public bodies from Direct scheme, these are the same as for all HomeBuy the Invest to budgets during the last five years. products. The number of Invest to Save Projects supported by my department over the last five years and funding Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for received are as follows: Communities and Local Government how many properties have been sold under the HomeBuy Direct Scheme in Number of projects (a) Tamworth and (b) Staffordshire. [282431] ISB Round supported Project total (£000) John Healey: To date no properties have been sold Round 5 (2003-04) 9 4,418 under HomeBuy Direct in Tamworth and Staffordshire. Round 6 (2004-05) 3 2,003 Units in both areas are likely to become available to Round 7 (2005-06) 8 11,923 purchasers later this year. Round 8 (2006-07) 5 4,074 317W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 318W

Non-domestic Rates: Ports Number of projects ISB Round supported Project total (£000) Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Round 9 (2007-08) 00Communities and Local Government whether the Total 25 22,418 Valuation Office Agency made a separate assessment 1 There was no new CLG sponsored ISB projects in 2007-2008. for business rates for each port operator working in the Note: Two housing related ISB projects were supported by my Department. hereditament of a statutory port in 2005. [283351] Ms Rosie Winterton: An entry in the 2005 rating lists Mortgages: Government Assistance was made for each of the statutory port operators where they were in occupation of a hereditament within a designated port. In some cases there is more than one Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for rating list entry where the statutory port operator occupied Communities and Local Government how many more than one separately rateable hereditament. applications for Homeowners Mortgage Support have Where any part of a port is occupied by another been granted to residents of (a) Tamworth and (b) business operator, who is not the statutory designated Staffordshire. [282432] port operator, their hereditament within the port falls to be separately rated. For the 2005 rating list about John Healey: The aim of Homeowners Mortgage 1,600 separate hereditaments were rated within ports in Support is to prevent repossessions, where households England. suffer a temporary income shock. After taking money The recent rating review of ports found that around advice, homeowners apply to their lenders to join the 600 hereditaments in England should be separately scheme, which allows them to defer up to 70 per cent. of assessed as these hereditaments were not occupied by the interest due. The Government have published an the designated port operator as at 1 April 2005. impact assessment, which estimates how many borrowers, at UK level, could be eligible. Official figures on the Social Rented Housing: Energy number of households entering the scheme will be published later this year. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for In the current economic conditions, we have acted Communities and Local Government what the eligibility rapidly to put in place help and support for households criteria for social housing providers are in respect of the struggling with their mortgage at every stage: from free Social Housing Energy Saving Programme scheme. debt advice when problems start, to free support for [282385] cases that reach court. Advice is available to all households struggling with their mortgage, with targeted schemes John Healey: The eligibility criteria for the Social for those in most need. Housing Energy Saving Programme housing delivery scheme is included in the guidance notes for the scheme and published on the HCA website at: Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/energy-saving- Communities and Local Government what steps his programme Department is taking to assist households ineligible for the Mortgage Rescue Scheme to avoid repossession. Supporting People Programme [282760] Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for John Healey: In the current economic conditions, we Communities and Local Government how much funding have acted rapidly to put in place help and support for was allocated by (a) his Department and (b) local households struggling with their mortgage at every authorities in Supporting People grants in each of the stage: from free debt advice when problems start, to free last five years. [283330] support for cases that reach court. Mr. Ian Austin: Communities and Local Government The Mortgage Rescue Scheme is a targeted scheme is responsible for the Supporting People programme aimed at helping the most vulnerable homeowners to and makes all programme and administrative grant avoid homelessness. Further targeted help is available payments to local authorities, in respect of this. Information through Support for Mortgage Interest or Homeowners on the amount of Supporting People grant allocated to Mortgage Support. Local authorities provide advice 152 top tier local authorities for the last five years can and information on the range of help available, and this be found on the Supporting People website at: information is also available from the DirectGov website. www.spkweb.org.uk/subject/finance A summary of the Supporting People grant allocated Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State to local authorities in the last five years is provided in for Communities and Local Government how many the following table. applications for Homeowners Mortgage Support have been granted to residents of (a) Merseyside and (b) Supporting People grant allocation Crosby constituency. [283172] Admin grant Programme grant allocation allocation (£ billion) (£ million)

John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I 2005-06 1.715 40 gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth 2006-07 1.685 40 (Mr. Jenkins) today (PQ 282432). 319W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 320W

Supporting People grant allocation : Since the start of 2009, the Government Admin grant have introduced a number of initiatives which will Programme grant allocation provide real help to exporters, as well as other businesses, allocation (£ billion) (£ million) during the current economic downturn. These have 2007-08 1.696 40 included the Working Capital Scheme, and ECGD is 2008-09 1.686 38 currently consulting with banks as well as exporters on 2009-10 1.666 35 proposals for a Letter of Credit Guarantee Scheme. The Government are considering other measures to The Supporting People programme is administered provide real help to UK exporters, including a possible by local authorities and it is up to them to decide how export trade credit insurance scheme along the lines of the funding is allocated based on their local needs and that announced for domestic business in the Budget priorities identified in their five year Supporting People which will address the cash flow, credit and investment strategies. Further information is available at: needs of businesses. The Government have and will http://www.spkweb.org.uk/Subjects/Statistics/ continue to involve the banks in its initiatives. and Broadband http://www.spclientrecord.org.uk/pubs.cfm Temporary Accommodation: Merseyside Mr. Evans: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State has made of the effects of provision of universal broadband for Communities and Local Government how many access at 2Mbps on the global competitiveness of businesses households were in temporary accommodation in (a) in rural areas. [282000] Merseyside and (b) Crosby constituency in each of the last five years; and what the average time spent in such Mr. McFadden [holding answer 25 June 2009]: Faster accommodation was. [283181] and more reliable broadband can help rural businesses to develop and adopt more productive, efficient and Mr. Ian Austin: Information about English local housing innovative ways of working enabling them to compete authorities’ actions under the homelessness legislation more effectively in the global economy. It can also (Part 7 of the Housing Act 1996) is collected at local enable rural businesses to gain access to new markets authority level. Merseyside comprises Knowsley, St. which may not have been previously possible due to the Helens and Wirral Metropolitan borough councils, existence of high barriers to entry and exploit the new Liverpool city council and Sefton council. The constituency business opportunities created by the rapid growth in of Crosby falls within Sefton. e-commerce which can extend beyond the UK’s I refer the hon. Member to my answer of 23 June geographical borders. 2009, Official Report, column 843W, given to the hon. An initial impact assessment on Universal Service Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink). Commitment was published as part of the Digital Britain, but deliberately did not contain any quantitative information on the expected costs and benefits of the Government’s BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS proposals for a Universal Service Commitment for broadband of 2 Mbps, as this may distort the procurement Apprentices: Day Care process. A full impact assessment will be carried out after the competitive procurement process has taken Mr. Laws: To ask the Minister of State, Department place. for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people (a) enrolled on and (b) completed an apprenticeship Broadband: Rural Areas in the childcare sector in each year since 2005; and if he will make a statement. [280243] Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Kevin Brennan: The following table shows the number steps his Department is taking to ensure that people in of apprenticeship starts and completions in each compete rural areas receive the same access to high speed broadband academic year since 2005, in the apprenticeship framework as their urban counterparts. [278698] ‘Children’s Care, Learning and Development’. Apprenticeship starts and completions in child care Mr. McFadden: The Digital Britain final report was 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 published on 16 June and contained more detailed information on Government’s commitment to providing Starts 12,300 13,200 15,300 universal broadband access to virtually UK homes and Completions 6,200 7,200 7,600 businesses at a speed of 2Mbps by 2012. In addition to Note: this, a 50p per month levy will be imposed on all fixed Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 100. telephone lines to create a Next Generation Fund to Source: ensure Next Generation Broadband reaches the final WBLILR third of homes that the market will not otherwise Banks: Finance deliver to. Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister of State, Departmental Billing Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking to encourage banks to participate in Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, the Export Credit Guarantees Department guaranteed Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how finance packages. [268609] much each of his Department’s non-departmental 321W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 322W public bodies paid in interest to suppliers under the Departmental Food Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 in the last three years. [282336] Tim Farron: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what percentage of Mr. McFadden: The Department does not hold the (a) meat, (b) fruit and (c) vegetables procured by information regarding payments made to suppliers under his Department in the last 12 months was produced in the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act the UK. [281949] 1988 by the Department’s non-departmental public bodies (NDPB). Each NDPB is required to publish such payments Mr. McFadden: A second report on the proportion of in their independent annual accounts. domestically produced food used by Government Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons Departmental Buildings under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and HM Prison Service was published in November 2008, Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008. for Business, Innovation and Skills which buildings the This report and the first one covering the previous year Department of Innovation, Universities and Skills took can be found at: a lease on; and how long each such lease was for. http://www.defra.gov.uk/farm/policy/sustain/procurement/ [282852] awareness.htm The report gives details of the proportion of individual Mr. McFadden: The Department for Innovation, meat, fruit and vegetable categories purchased. Universities and Skills did not take any leases on buildings Although it is too early to show a trend, the report that it occupied. Responsibility for buildings in which indicates that the amount of domestically produced DIUS staff were located rested with either Department food consumed by Government Departments in England for Children, Schools and Families or the former is increasing. The proportion of domestically produced Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory food procured by BIS’s predecessor’s contracted service Reform, with the exception of Polaris House in Swindon partner was 87.5 per cent. in 2006-07 and 87 per cent. in which is owned by the research councils. 2007-08. A third report is expected to be published at the end of 2009. Departmental Data Protection Departmental Internet

Mr. Blunt: To ask the Minister of State, Department Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many breaches for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the of information security there have been at (a) his answer of 12 February 2009, Official Report, columns Department and its predecessors and (b) its agencies 2288-89W, on the departmental internet, how many (a) in the last five years. [281081] unique visitors and (b) page impressions were received by each website in each of the last 12 months. [280729] Mr. McFadden: In the last five years there have been 14 breaches of information security recorded in my Mr. McFadden: In the period March 2008-February Department. 2009 unique visitors and page impressions for the core The Department and its agencies report all significant BERR website: data security breaches to the Cabinet Office and ICO. Information on data security breaches are published on Unique visitors Page impressions an annual basis in the Department’s annual resource March 2008 511,536 2,385,231 accounts as was announced in the Data Handling Review April 2008 512,422 2,443,138 published on 25 June 2008. May 2008 532,300 2,480,333 Additionally, all significant control weaknesses including June 2008 563,267 2,694,709 other significant security breaches are included in the July 2008 587,369 2,840,968 Statement of Internal Control which is published within August 2008 516,080 2,372,979 the resource accounts. September 2008 641,686 2,932,840 The Department takes its data security responsibilities October 2008 753,954 3,648,423 very seriously. We have strict security policies in place, November 2008 676,204 3,452,227 and ensure staff have sufficient information and are December 2008 546,116 2,584,510 trained to meet their responsibilities. January 2009 796,574 3,770,379 BIS Agency chief executives will be responding separately. February 2009 690,263 3,238,879 Other websites operated by the Department are not Departmental Energy centrally managed. Information on visitor numbers and page impressions for these sites is not centrally held and Gregory Barker: Toask the Minister of State, Department could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. for Business, Innovation and Skills which official is Departmental Pay responsible for the energy efficiency of his Department’s estate. [280565] John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills which Mr. McFadden: The Department’s Permanent Secretary, (a) sections of his Department and (b) non- Simon Fraser, is the responsible official. departmental public bodies for which his Department 323W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 324W is responsible have requested money saved from factors in public ICT procurement strategies. We have efficiency savings to be used for increased pay in their also pledged to work closely with manufacturers to 2009 pay offers to staff. [282536] examine the environmental impact of the digital radio upgrade. Mr. McFadden [holding answer 26 June 2009]: The HMT Civil Service Pay Guidance 2009-10 provided the Digital Broadcasting: Wales flexibility for organisations covered by this guidance to seek agreement to using efficiency savings to fund workforce Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Minister of State, Department reform as part of their pay remit in 2009. The deadline for Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding for making such requests was 30 May 2009. The former he plans to allocate to Wales in the next five years in Department of Business, Enterprise and Regulatory fulfilment of the universal service commitment outlined Reform (BERR) and the former Department of Innovation, in the Digital Britain White Paper. [281622] Universities and Skills (DIUS) have not requested agreement to using efficiency savings to fund their pay remits in Mr. McFadden: The Government have allocated £200 2009. None of the Agencies or NDPBs sponsored by million of direct public funding to delivering the broadband either the former BERR or DIUS has requested agreement universal service commitment. We expect to be able to to use efficiency savings to fund their pay remits in leverage as much again from private and public sector 2009. partners though a well constructed procurement process. No decisions have yet been taken about spend in Digital Broadcasting specific parts of the UK. The Digital Britain report sets out the priorities for allocation of the funds for meeting the Universal Service Commitment. The Universal Service Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Minister of State, Department Commitment core priorities are: for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of the likely effects on levels of (a) energy 1. Coverage demand and (b) sustainable use of materials of the Broadband coverage of at least 2 Mbps to virtually every proposals contained in the Digital Britain White Paper; household in the UK (in addition, mobile will have a role to play and what assessment he has made of the likely effects in providing broadband coverage at different speeds). on levels of UK carbon dioxide emissions of 2. Provision implementation of the proposals contained in that report. Those currently unable to receive a service will be given priority. [281896] 3. Technology We should remain technology-neutral and look for the most Mr. McFadden: Environmental impact issues are included cost effective means of delivering availability, while maximising in the Digital Britain impact assessments which were wider network benefits (such as using next generation-compatible published with the final Report on 16 June and can be solutions where possible). seen on: 4. Competition http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/ Service competition should, as far as possible, be available digitalbritain_impactassessment.pdf across the country. New communications technologies have the potential The procurement design by the Network Design and to reduce energy demand and impact positively on UK Procurement Group will determine how these priorities carbon dioxide emissions. For example, next generation are addressed in practice. We will ensure that the devolved broadband services such as two-way video conferencing administrations are able to advise the group about need may lead to lower road congestion and pollution because in their nations. they encourage greater use of tele-working which reduces the need to travel. This is because more people find it Domestic Appliances: Safety convenient to work from home or use tele-conferencing instead of physical meetings with their suppliers and Gordon Banks: To ask the Minister of State, Department customers. Evidence from Australia reveals that in 2006, for Business, Innovation and Skills what reports he has over a third of SMEs introduced tele-working and that received of the recommendations in relation to the sale broadband was an influential factor in the decision. of blinds with looped cords made in the determination Other potential benefits include a reduction in power made by Sheriff Mackie on 29 May 2009 in respect of consumption through a more efficient computing (e.g. the fatal accident inquiry into the death of Muireann cloud computing), enlarging the scope to do business McLaughlin; and if he will make a statement. [281614] online and providing options for monitoring the efficient Kevin Brennan [holding answer 22 June 2009]: My use of transport fleets and home energy, among other Department has received both the Sheriffs determination things. and a summary of the fatal accident inquiry. Officials The Digital Britain action plan will support this by are carefully considering the recommendations made facilitating the rollout of new networks including shared and how best to deal with them. I have no plans to make networks and networks which use existing infrastructure. a statement. Laying down the necessary fibre network may increase carbon emissions and an increasing use of applications English Language: Education which require higher bandwidth (e.g. video conferencing) may lead to increased power consumption. The Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department Government are seeking to minimise the energy demands for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment and waste created by new technology and infrastructure he has made of the performance of the English language by building in a sustainability element to the Digital training sector; and what steps his Department is taking Inclusion Champion’s role, and by including sustainability to assist that sector. [282627] 325W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 326W

Kevin Brennan: The Department funds provision of and revoked, by destination, including a summary of English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) through the items covered by these licences. the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) and this is The Government’s Annual Reports, published since delivered through FE colleges, training providers and 1997, and Quarterly Reports, published since 2004, are the voluntary sector. available from the Libraries of the House and on the The Office for Standards in Education, Children’s Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) website at: Services and Skills (Ofsted) published a thematic review http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ of ESOL in October 2008. The report stated that ESOL publications/annual-reports/export-controls1 provision in colleges is satisfactory and that ACL providers As part of the Government’s commitment to transparency had improved significantly. The report is available at: and accountability the Export Control Organisation www.ofsted.gov.uk has also recently launched an online searchable database The UK Border Agency (UKBA) maintains a register of export control licensing statistics in order to improve of colleges offering English language training in relation the usability of the data published. The database can be to their points based system. All private education accessed at: providers need to be accredited by an Agency-approved https://www.exportcontroldb.berr.gov.uk/eng/fox/sdb/ accreditation body. Ofsted help to determine which SDBHOME accreditation bodies provide an appropriate test of the The latest date for which information is available is 31 bona fides of an educational institution and the list of December 2008. The officials will shortly be publishing UKBA-approved accreditation bodies is available on the data for the quarter ending 31 March 2009. the UKBA website at: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/employers/points/ Higher Education: Student Numbers sponsoringmigrants/eligibility/tierstudents Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department Evening Standard: Sales for Business, Innovation and Skills how many full-time, UK-domiciled undergraduate students there are in each Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department of the teaching and learning price bands used by the for Business, Innovation and Skills on what dates since Higher Education Funding Council for England. 1 January 2007 (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his [282844] Department and its predecessors have had discussions with (i) Lord Rothermere, (ii) Matthew Freud and (iii) Mr. Lammy: In 2007-08 the estimated number of UK Freud Communications, with particular reference to domiciled full-time undergraduate students, including ownership of the London Evening Standard. [282270] both those fundable and non-fundable by HEFCE in each of their price bands are as follows: Kevin Brennan [holding answer 25 June 2009]: Neither Ministers nor officials have had discussions with Lord Number Rothermere, Matthew Freud and Freud Communications Group A 22,264 in reference to the ownership of the Evening Standard. Group B 150,525 Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department Group C 408,805 for Business, Innovation and Skills what written and Group D 271,538 oral contacts (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his In addition there are 22,128 students meeting the Department and its predecessors had with (i) Lord criteria of the question in Initial Teacher Training which Rothermere, (ii) Matthew Freud and (iii) Freud is not assigned to a price group. Figures are for England Communications in connection with the sale of the only. London Evening Standard to Alexander Lebedev before the decision was taken on whether to issue an intervention Insolvency: Advisory Services notice under the Enterprise Act 2002. [282271] Mr. Letwin: To ask the Minister of State, Department Kevin Brennan [holding answer 25 June 2009]: There for Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on have been no written or oral contacts by Ministers or the provision of paid advice on insolvency by persons officials with Lord Rothermere, Matthew Freud or Freud who have not been recognised as insolvency practitioners Communications regarding the sale of the Evening Standard. by the Insolvency Service. [282157]

Exports: Israel Ian Lucas: All those offering consumer credit or debt advice must secure a Consumer Credit Licence from the Mr. Andrew Smith: To ask the Minister of State, Office of Fair Trading. This will allow them to offer Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how advice on all matters of debt, including whether insolvency many end-user certificates for exports of arms to Israel is the best solution. have been issued in the last three years. [283331] If an individual voluntary arrangement is suggested an authorised insolvency practitioner will act in relation Ian Lucas: End-user certificates are submitted by the to the arrangement. There are seven recognised professional exporter as supporting documentation when applying bodies, as well as my noble Friend the Secretary of for export licences, and are supplied by the end-user of State, which authorise insolvency practitioners. Insolvency the goods. The Government publish, in their Annual practitioners are required to provide details of their and Quarterly Reports on Strategic Export Controls, authorising body on their letter headed paper. If bankruptcy detailed information on export licences issued, refused proceedings are recommended the Official Receiver will, 327W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 328W in the first instance, deal with the case. Only the authorising Using the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings we bodies can deal with complaints against insolvency have estimated that (i) the number of employees who practitioners. could be receiving tips to make up wages to the national minimum wage is around 60,000 and (ii) the monetary Loans: Interest Rates value of such tips to be £82 million per year. The Department for Work and Pensions is responsible Ms Gisela Stuart: To ask the Minister of State, for benefit payments. DWP has not made an assessment Department for Business, Innovation and Skills if he of the effects of the practice on expenditure on benefits will consider the merits of introducing a maximum as to do so could be done only at disproportionate cost. interest rate chargeable in respect of unsecured personal From 1 October 2009 we will be amending National loans. [280897] Minimum Wage regulations so that tips can no longer be used to pay national minimum wage. Kevin Brennan: The Government will be giving broad consideration to the issue of unsecured credit in the Consumer White Paper, which is to be published in National Skills Academies early July. It would be inappropriate to pre-empt any announcements to be made in that White Paper. Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Manufacturing Industries: Devon recent steps his Department has taken to facilitate the establishment of the National Skills Academy for Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department Creative and Cultural Skills; and if he will make a for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps the statement. [282468] Government is taking to support the manufacturing sector in South Devon. [282633] Kevin Brennan [holding answer 29 June 2009]: The Creative and Cultural Skills National Skills Academy Ian Lucas: The Government continue to help industry was established in April 2008 to tackle technical skills in south Devon, and in other parts of the south-west. shortages in the Creative Industries. Since its inception, We are supporting manufacturing with programmes this Government have invested £4.2 million in the such as the Manufacturing Advisory Service (MAS). In establishment of this Academy. 2008-09, MAS South West helped 1,410 SME I am aware that the Academy has also submitted a manufacturing companies. Across the region these capital proposal to the Learning and Skills Council interventions have generated cost savings and increased (LSC). Government remain committed to providing business worth over £19 million; £4.6 million of which capital support to National Skills Academies through is in Devon. Also, over the last 12 months (July 2008 to the LSC’s Specialisation Fund which is separate to the June 2009), Business Link SW has provided advice and more general FE Capital fund. We will make an support to over 600 manufacturing businesses in the announcement soon. South Devon area. The south-west regional development agency continues Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Minister of State, to deliver specific support to the industry in the south-west Department for Business, Innovation and Skills for through its regional cluster and sector bodies, as well as what reasons the provision of funding for the National through Business Link. Skills Academy for Creative and Cultural Skills in Thurrock Commitments in the 2008 manufacturing strategy has been delayed; and if he will make a statement. and more recent action to address cash flow, credit and [282469] investment needs are helping small and medium-sized businesses in the current downturn. Kevin Brennan [holding answer 29 June 2009]: In December 2008, the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) Minimum Wage undertook a detailed review of its capital programmes, and reported in March this year that there were more Mr. Jamie Reed: To ask the Minister of State, projects than funding available. While the LSC undertook Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what this review, it was necessary to put all capital project estimate his Department has made of the number of applications on hold. businesses in (a) each district in Cumbria and (b) the An announcement was made on the 26 June about UK using tips as a means of ensuring their employees the future capital arrangements for the FE college sector. receive the national minimum wage; what estimate his Government remain committed to providing capital Department has made of (i) the number of employees support to NSAs through the LSC’s Specialisation Fund involved and (ii) the monetary value of such tips in the which is separate to the more general FE Capital Fund. last 12 months; what steps his Department plans to We will make an announcement soon. take on the matter; and what assessment has been made of the effects of the practice on expenditure on National Vocational Qualifications: Finance benefits. [281337]

Mr. McFadden: It is not possible to provide an estimate Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, of the number of businesses in (a) each Cumbrian Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what district, and (b) in the UK, using tips as a means of percentage of per candidate funding National Vocational ensuring their employees receive the national minimum Qualification training providers received in advance in wage as this data is not collected. each of the last five years. [281186] 329W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 330W

Kevin Brennan: National Vocational Qualifications £ million (NVQs) are delivered through a range of training providers UK exports of services UK imports of services funded by the Learning and Skills Council (LSC). This to Lebanon from Lebanon includes further education colleges and independent training providers. 2006 57 19 The main route for delivering stand alone NVQ 2007 54 21 qualifications in the work place is through Train to Gain which was fully rolled out in 2006/07 academic Phorm year. From 2008/09 academic year, 75 per cent. of the cost of a Train to Gain course is paid monthly in Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Minister of State, arrears spread over the expected length of the programme, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what with 25 per cent. withheld and paid on achievement. discussions he has had with Phorm on the use of its This approach is also used where an NVQ is delivered targeted online advertising technology. [280893] as part of an apprenticeship, with the exception that the Mr. McFadden: I have not had any such discussions. 25 per cent. achievement payment for the NVQ is only My noble Friend, the Minister for Communications, paid on achievement of the whole apprenticeship framework Technology and Broadcasting, met Kent Ertugrul, the rather than just the NVQ element. chief Executive Officer of Phorm Inc. on 18 November 2008. This was an introductory meeting. Overseas Trade Prisoners Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Mr. Galloway: To ask the Minister of State, Department estimate he has made of the monetary value of trade for Business, Innovation and Skills how many of those between the UK and Saudi Arabia in the last five years. released from prison who (a) achieved and (b) did not [283313] achieve a degree whilst in prison re-offended within two years of their release in each year from 2000 to 2006. Ian Lucas: The data requested are shown in the [282236] following table: Kevin Brennan [holding answer 29 June 2009]: The information requested is not collected centrally by this £ million Department and could be provided only at disproportionate UK exports UK exports UK imports UK imports of goods to of services of goods of services cost. Saudi to Saudi from Saudi from Saudi Arabia Arabia Arabia Arabia Royal Mail: Rural Areas 2004 1,611 2,246 1,158 688 Mr. Letwin: To ask the Minister of State, Department 2005 1,559 2,219 1,714 570 for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment 2006 1,644 2,701 1,232 670 he has made of the level of service provided by Royal 2007 1,857 3,020 821 693 Mail to customers in rural areas; and if he will make a 2008 2,189 — 672 — statement. [282156] Sources: ONS monthly review of external trade statistics and UK Balance of Payments Mr. McFadden: Postcomm, the industry regulator, Pink Book monitors Royal Mail’s quality of service performance Geographical estimates of trade in services in 2008 in all postcode areas on a quarterly basis. Postcomm are expected to be available at the end of July. also commissions an annual survey of residential and SME customers, which involves asking questions of Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, customers in rural and deep rural areas about their use Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what of mail services and how satisfied they are as senders estimate he has made of the monetary value of trade and recipients of mail. between the UK and Lebanon in the last five years. In the latest 2008 survey, all respondents were asked [283314] to rate their overall satisfaction with Royal Mail on a scale of 1 to 10 (10 representing extremely satisfied and Ian Lucas: Data on recorded trade in goods with 1 extremely dissatisfied). Lebanon are shown in the following table: The total sample gave Royal Mail a mean score of £ million 8.02. A breakdown of the sample showed that deep rural customers gave Royal Mail a higher mean score of UK exports of goods to UK imports of goods Lebanon from Lebanon 8.47. More information can be found on Postcomm’s website: 2004 210 17 http://www.psc.gov.uk/about-the-mail-market/customer- 2005 212 20 needs-survey.html 2006 208 20 2007 224 42 Students: Radicalism 2008 304 47 Source: Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Minister of State, HMRC Overseas Trade Statistics Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Estimates of trade in services are not available for the many people in his Department work (a) full-time and full five years. ONS data published in the UK Balance (b) part-time on matters related to preventing violent of Payments Pink Book 2008 were: extremism in universities. [282662] 331W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 332W

Mr. Lammy: There is one official in the Department and (ii) were admitted via accident and emergency for Business, Innovation and Skills who works full-time departments for excessive consumption of alcohol in on matters relating to preventing violent extremism in each year since 1997-98. [282773] universities, two who work part-time, and other officials who provide advice and guidance on specific areas of the higher education sector. Gillian Merron: The information for alcohol-related attendances at accident and emergency departments is not collected centrally. However, information on alcohol- HEALTH related hospital admissions is collected centrally. The following table shows numbers of admissions rather Accident and Emergency Departments: Alcoholic than individuals. Drinks Information on alcohol-related hospital admissions Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health is only available for the years 2002-03 to 2007-08 and we how many (a) people (b) under 18-year-olds, (c) under have provided figures for all alcohol-related hospital 16-year-olds and (d) under 12-year-olds (i) attended admissions for those aged 16 and over.

Number of finished alcohol-related admissions of patients via accident and emergency (A&E) 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Total number of admissions 251,303 289,229 337,549 388,880 420,263 448,813 via A&E Under 12-years-old 281 282 243 226 213 181 12 to 15-years-old 3,968 4,521 4,524 4,864 4,753 4,441 16 to 17-years-old 4,679 5,300 6,077 7,247 7,474 7,766 Notes: 1. Includes activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector. 2. Alcohol-related admissions The number of alcohol-related admissions is based on the methodology developed by the North West Public Health Observatory. Figures for under 16s only include admissions where one or more of the following alcohol-specific conditions were listed: Alcoholic cardiomyopathy (I42.6) Alcoholic gastritis (K29.2) Alcoholic liver disease (K70) Alcoholic myopathy (G72.1) Alcoholic polyneuropathy (G62.1) Alcohol-induced pseudo-Cushing’s syndrome (E24.4) Chronic pancreatitis (alcohol induced) (K86.0) Degeneration of nervous system due to alcohol (G31.2) Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol (F10) Accidental poisoning by and exposure to alcohol (X45) Ethanol poisoning (T51.0) Methanol poisoning (T51.1) Toxic effect of alcohol, unspecified (T51.9) 3. Number of episodes in which the patient had an alcohol-related primary or secondary diagnosis These figures represent the number of episodes where an alcohol-related diagnosis was recorded in any of the 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) primary and secondary diagnosis fields in a Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) record. Each episode is only counted once in each count, even ifan alcohol-related diagnosis is recorded in more than one diagnosis field of the record. 4. Ungrossed data Figures have not been adjusted for shortfalls in data (i.e. the data are ungrossed). 5. Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode is the first period of inpatient care under one consultant within one health care provider. Finished admission episodes are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 6. Data quality HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts (PCTs) in England. Data are also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. 7. Assessing growth through time HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in information submitted by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the improvement in the coverage of independent sector activity. Changes in NHS practice also need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in outpatient settings and may no longer be accounted for in the HES data. This may account for any reductions in activity over time. 8. Assignment of Episodes to Years Years are assigned by the end of the first period of care in a patient’s hospital stay. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for health and social care.

Cancer: Health Services The estimated total national health service spend on cancer care represented in the graph on page 119 of the Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Cancer Reform Strategy was an analysis commissioned with reference to the graph in figure 15 of page 119 of specifically for inclusion in the Strategy. It was based on his Department’s Cancer Reform Strategy, published a wide range of data from 2005-06, and the sources of on 3 December 2007, how much and what proportion this data are quoted in the Strategy. An estimated NHS of funding has been spent under each heading in each spend on cancer care under the same categories of that year since 1997-98. [283251] graph is not available for any other years, and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. Ann Keen: The information requested is not routinely available. 333W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 334W

Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for what assessment he has made of the use of exceptional Health what steps he has taken to inform primary care case requests in England for anti-nausea treatments trusts of the unit costs of delivering vascular checks in used to support patients receiving chemotherapy. different settings. [282971] [283285] Ann Keen: The NHS Health Check impact assessment, Mr. Mike O’Brien: We have made no such assessment. a copy of has been which placed in the Library, breaks down the costs of the check into two main areas: costs Cancer: Screening of the personnel who perform the assessments and costs of various testing procedures. This information Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health could be used, with local data, to estimate the cost of what steps are being taken to increase the uptake of providing the NHS Health Check in various settings screening for cancer in Staffordshire. [283229] and by different personnel.

Ann Keen: This information is not collected centrally. Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for It is for strategic health authorities and primary care Health whether his Department has undertaken market trusts to determine how to most effectively meet the research on the settings in which different categories of needs of their local populations. patients may wish to receive vascular checks. [282972]

Cardiovascular System: Screening Ann Keen: A qualitative research project was commissioned by the Central Office of Information on Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for behalf of the Department in October 2008 to consider Health (1) when he expects the national awareness-raising the motivations and barriers to taking up an invitation campaign for vascular checks to commence; [282873] to a check among higher risk groups. The primary (2) what further work his Department is undertaking purpose of this research was to help inform the development on the choice of delivery options and roll-out plans for of the communications materials to support the NHS Health Check programme. its vascular checks programme; [282970] (3) pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for General practice has a central role to play in delivering North Norfolk of 12 February 2009, Official Report, the NHS Health Check programme. This is because the column 2165W, on cardiovascular system: screening, patient record held by the general practitioners (GPs) whether his Department is monitoring the settings will be the repository of all information generated by from which vascular checks are being commissioned in the NHS Heath Check and also GP surgeries have each primary care trust area; and if he will make a always been regarded as one of the principal settings for delivery of these health checks. However, some people statement. [283023] prefer to access these types of services in different settings for reasons of convenience and so the check has Ann Keen: The Government are committed to raising designed so that it is suitable to be undertaken in a awareness but will consider the exact timing in light of variety of settings, for example pharmacies and community the progress of implementing NHS Health Checks so as centres as well as GP practices. not to raise expectations before they can be fully met. The Department published “Putting prevention first— Chronic Fatigue Syndrome vascular checks: risk assessment and management—next steps guidance for primary care trusts” on vascular checks in November 2008. It states that: Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what recent assessment he has made of his ‘It is important that PCTs devise and use a model (of delivery) that is best suited to their population and that when doing so they Department’s guidelines for the treatment of myalgic consider tackling health inequalities that exist within their area’. encephalopathy compared to international best practice; [283105] A copy of this document has been placed in the Library. (2) what recent representations he has received on To ensure that the NHS Health Check programme is the revision of treatment guidelines for myalgic accessible to all those eligible, and to help reduce health encephalopathy issued to trusts by his Department. inequalities, it has been designed so that the basic risk assessment and management components are suitable [283106] to be undertaken in a variety of settings, for example Ann Keen: The Department has not issued guidelines pharmacies and community centres as well as general for the treatment of myalgic encephalopathy. Guidelines practitioner (GP) practices. This means that people for the diagnosis and management of chronic fatigue who are not in touch regularly with formal health care, syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis were published in particularly GP services, will be encouraged to access 2007 by the National Institute for Health and Clinical the checks at convenient locations and times. In addition Excellence. They would have responsibility for revising to the guidance which the Department has already this guidance. issued to primary care trusts (PCTs), it has been working with PCTs, through the Learning Network hosted by NHS Improvement, to help ensure that the experience Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence and learning of developing and implementing different delivery models for the checks is shared across the David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Health country. The evaluation will consider the contribution when he expects the Council for Healthcare Regulatory that different providers of NHS Health Checks make to Excellence to publish its revised Citizen Engagement the delivery of the programme. strategy. [280791] 335W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 336W

Ann Keen: The Council for Healthcare Regulatory Statistics for England: Quarter 3, 31 December 2008’ Excellence published a Public Stakeholder Plan in report. Information is available for 2006-07 and quarterly November 2008, which is available on its website at: since 2007-08. www.chre.org.uk/public/ Information on the number of patients seen in the most recent 24-month period is available in table D3 of David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Health annex 3 of the ‘NHS Dental Statistics for England, what travel costs patient and service user groups may Quarter 3, 31 December 2008’ report. Information is reclaim from the Council for Healthcare Regulatory provided at quarterly intervals from 31 March 2006 to Excellence when attending meetings of the Council. 31 December 2008. [280854] This report, published on 21 May 2009, has already been placed in the Library and is also available on the Ann Keen: The Council for Healthcare Regulatory Information Centre for health and social care website Excellence (CHRE) provides travel costs for Council at: members, all of whom are lay, to attend council meetings. www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dentalstats0809q3 CHRE does not provide travel costs to patient and Information for the first three quarters of 2008-09 service user groups attending its public council meetings remain provisional as they are revised in each subsequent as observers. When the council holds consultative meetings report to account for treatments reported too late for to which it invites members of the public and representatives inclusion in the previous quarterly report. In the end of of patient and service user groups, it reimburses the year report, published in the August following the end travel costs of those who attend if they are self financing of the financial year, all quarterly activity data are or unemployed. revised for a final time. Dental Services: South Yorkshire Further information on CoTs and UDAs is contained in the above report. Jeff Ennis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health The numbers of dentists with NHS activity during what recent estimate he has made of the number of (a) the years ending 31 March 2007 and 2008 are available adults and (b) children without access to NHS dental in table G1 of annex 3 of the ‘NHS Dental Statistics for services in (i) Barnsley and (ii) Doncaster in each of the England: 2007/08’ report. This report, published on last five years. [282783] 21 August 2008, has already been placed in the Library and is also available on the Information Centre for Ann Keen: The information requested is not collected health and social care website at: centrally. It is for primary care trusts (PCTs) to assess www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/dental0708 local need and demand for national health service dental Following a recent consultation exercise, this measure services and commission the appropriate services. is based on a revised methodology and therefore supersedes All 10 strategic health authorities have set themselves previously published workforce figures relating to the the aim of providing access to NHS dentistry for all new dental contractual arrangements, introduced on who seek it by March 2011 at the latest. We are supporting 1 April 2006. It is not comparable to the information PCTs to meet this aim with extra resources—an 11 per collected under the old contractual arrangements. This cent. uplift in our dental funding allocations for 2008-09, revised methodology counted the number of dental and a further 8.5 per cent. uplift in total funds for performers with NHS activity recorded via FP17 claim 2009-10, which takes the total available for dental allocations forms in each year ending 31 March. to £2,257 million (net of patient charge income). Workforce figures relate to headcounts and do not We have also set up an expanded national dental differentiate between full-time and part-time dentists, access programme, headed by Dr. Mike Warburton an nor do they account for the fact that some dentists may experienced clinician and manager, to support managers do more NHS work than others. and clinicians to rapidly expand services where needed. Information in both reports is provided by primary care trust (PCT) and strategic health authority (SHA) “NHS dental service in England: An independent but is not available by constituency. They are based on review led by Professor Jimmy Steele”, published on the PCT boundaries which came into effect on 1 October 22 June recommends a series of further actions to 2006. support access and quality.Piloting of the recommendations will begin from this autumn. This report has already All 10 SHAs have set themselves the aim of providing been placed in the Library and is also available at: access to NHS dentistry for all who seek it by March 2011 at the latest. www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_101137 We are supporting PCTs to meet this aim with extra resources—an 11 per cent. uplift in our dental funding Dentistry: Staffordshire allocations for 2008-09, and a further 8.5 per cent. uplift in total funds for 2009-10, which takes the total Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health available for dental allocations to £2,257 million (net of what assessment he has made of the adequacy of NHS patient charge income). dentistry provision in (a) Tamworth and (b) We have also set up an expanded national dental Staffordshire. [282487] access programme, headed by Dr. Mike Warburton, an experienced clinician and manager, to support managers Ann Keen: The numbers of courses of treatments and clinicians to rapidly expand services where needed. (CoTs) and units of dental activity (UDAs) performed The report of the Independent Review of Dentistry by national health service dentists, in England, are in England, ‘NHS Dental Services in England’, published available in table C6 of annex 3 of the ‘NHS Dental on 22 June 2009, recommends a series of further actions 337W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 338W to support access and quality. A copy has already been There were no reportable breaches for either of the placed in the Library. Piloting of the recommendations Department’s two executive agencies—the Medicines will begin from this autumn. and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) and NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency (PASA). Departmental Billing The Department and its agencies report all significant personal data security breaches to the Cabinet Office Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State and the Information Commissioner (IC). Information for Health pursuant to the answer of 1 June 2009, on personal security data breaches are published on an Official Report, column 113W, on departmental billing, annual basis in the Department’s annual resource accounts how much his Department’s non-departmental public as required under the mandatory requirements of the bodies have paid in interest under the Late Payment of Data Handling Report published on 25 June 2008. Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 in the last three The Department reported on the above personal data years. [282327] breach in its 2007-08 annual resource account, which can be found at Phil Hope: The information is shown in the following www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ table. DH_089421

£ A copy has been placed in the Library. Non-departmental public Additionally, all significant control weaknesses including bodies 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 other significant security breaches are included in the Statement of Internal Control which is published within Alcohol Education 000the annual resource accounts. Research Council Appointments 000 Departmental Energy Commission Care Quality Commission n/a n/a 0 (With effect 1 September Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008) Health which official is responsible for the energy efficiency Council for Healthcare 000of his Department’s estate. [280559] Regulatory Excellence General Social Care 000Phil Hope: The official responsible for the energy Council efficiency of the Department’s estate is the Department’s Health Protection Agency 0 0 0 permanent secretary, Sir Hugh Taylor. Human Fertilisation and 0 99.88 0 Embryology Authority Departmental Legislation Human Tissue Authority 0 0 0 Health and Social Care 1,592.00 100.00 339.00 Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Information Centre Health which provisions of (a) primary and (b) secondary Monitor 0 0 0 legislation for which his Department is responsible in National Patient Safety 0 0 302.71 Agency each of the last 10 years have yet to be brought into force. [282192] NHS Blood and 000 Transplant NHS Business Services 000Phil Hope: The request for information on secondary Agency legislation could be obtained only at disproportionate NHS Institute for 0 674.98 0 cost. Innovation and Listed in the following table are Acts of Parliament Improvement introduced by the Department since 1999, which include NHS Litigation Authority 0 0 0 some sections and schedules not yet brought into force: NHS Professionals1 0 0 500.00 National Institute Health 000Acts introduced by the and Clinical Excellence Department of Health since National Treatment 0001999 Not yet in force Agency for Substance misuse Health Act 1999 (c.8) Section 61 Postgraduate Medical 000Care Standards Act 2000 Section 64(1 )(a) and (3)-(5) Schedule Education Training Board (c. 14) 4 paragraphs 12, 14(10)(b), (22) and 1 NHS Professionals are unable to specify exact amounts without (29) Schedule 5 paragraphs 1 and 2 disproportionate work, but it is known to be less than £500. Community Care (Delayed Section 14 Discharges etc) Act 2003 (c.5) Departmental Data Protection Health and Social Care Section 107 Section 116(3) Schedule (Community Health and 14 part 6 Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Standards) Act 2003 (c.43) how many breaches of information security there have Health Act 2006 (c.28) Section 36(2) been at (a) his Department and (b) its agencies in the Local Government and Section 233 (partially) Schedule 6 Public Involvement in Health last five years. [281065] Act 2007 (c.28) Health and Social Care Act Section 2(2)(a) (partially) Phil Hope: In the last five years the Department of 2008 (c. 14) Health has recorded one notifiable breach of information Section 12(6) security. 339W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 340W

Acts introduced by the Acts introduced by the Department of Health since Department of Health since 1999 Not yet in force 1999 Not yet in force

Sections 13-15 Schedules 1-3 and 5 Section 17(2) Schedule 6, paragraphs 37 and 38 Sections 23 and 24 Schedule 7 paragraphs 1-14; 15(a) and (b),16 -25 Section26(2) Schedule 8 (partially) Section 28(4)(b), (5)-(7) Section 34(2)-(4) Departmental Pay Section 41 Sections 42 and 43 Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Section 44 (partially) how staff pay levels are agreed with Solace Enterprises Section 45 for the NHS Flexible Resourcing Service; and how much staff at each level who are recruited through the Section 49 service are paid per hour. [282775] Section 66 (partially) Section 72 (partially) Ann Keen: The Department does not hold this Section 95 (partially) information centrally.This is a matter for NHS Employers. Sections 98-110 Doctors: Working Hours Sections 111 and 112(partially) Sections 119-122 Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Section 123(1) and (2) for Health how many additional doctors have been Sections 124-126 recruited since 2004 to enable compliance with the requirements of the European Working Time Directive; Section 127 (partially) and how many he estimates will be so required from Section 128 August 2009. [283212] Section 130 Sections 139-141 Ann Keen: The number of additional doctors needed Sections 144-146 to comply with European working time directive (EWTD) is not collected centrally. It is for trusts to determine Section 148 how many doctors they require to deliver services within Section 160 (partially) an EWTD compliant working environment. Schedule 4, paragraph 5 (partially) Since 2004 the number of doctors working in the Schedule 5 paragraphs 2-6; 10-12; national health service has increased by 16,119 (+13.8 14(b)(ii) and (d), 15,169a), 18, 19, 20(2)- per cent.). This figure excludes general practitioner (4),21.24(a), 26-28 and 31 retainers. Schedule 6 Schedule 7 Domestic Accidents: North East Schedule 8, paragraph 10 Schedule 9 Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many children were admitted to hospital as a Schedule 10, paragraphs 2(b),4(b),5(b), 6(a),7,9,13(b), 14, 15, 18 ,22 ,26 and result of an accident in the home in (a) the North 27 East, (b) Teesside, (c) Middlesbrough South and East Schedule 11 Cleveland constituency and (d) England in each of the [282902] Schedule 14 ,paragraphs 1 and 8 last five years; and if he will make a statement. Human Fertilisation and Sections 1-7 Embryology Act 2008 Ann Keen: This information is not collected centrally. Information on admissions to hospital for accidental Sections 9-13 injury is available, but the number of admissions for Section 14(2) and (4) accidents in the home cannot be reliably identified. Section 15(1),(2) and (4) Sections 16-18 Health Professions: Regulation Section 20 David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Sections 22 and 23 Health if he will consult members of the public on the Section 24 and 25 (partially) means by which health professional regulators are held Sections 26-29 to account to (a) the public and (b) Parliament might Sections 31 and 32 be achieved; and if he will make a statement. [280696] Sections 54 and 55 Ann Keen: Extensive public consultation has already Section 56 (partially) taken place through two reviews of professional regulation Section 57(3) and (4) in 2006: ‘Good doctors, safer patients’ and ‘The regulation Sections 59 and 60 of the non-medical health care professions’. Following these reviews the White Paper, ‘Trust Assurance and 341W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 342W

Safety—The Regulation of Health Professionals in the (2) what estimate he has made of the number of 21st Century’ was published in 2007, setting out a people requiring treatment for adult attention deficit substantial programme of reform to the system of hyperactivity disorder (ADHD); and what recent health care professional regulation. research his Department has (a) evaluated and (b) As part of this programme of work a working group, commissioned on the (i) efficacy and (ii) cost- chaired by Niall Dickson, produced a number of effectiveness of treatments for ADHD delivered by recommendations about ways to enhance public confidence the NHS. [283295] in the health care regulators. In 2008 and 2009 extensive reforms to the governance Phil Hope: The National Institute for Health and of the health care regulatory bodies was taken forward Clinical Excellence (NICE) published clinical guidance to provide for independently appointed councils with in September 2008 (“Clinical Guideline 72”) on the parity between lay and registrant members. These reforms diagnosis and management of attention deficit hyperactivity also improved arrangements for accountability to disorder (ADHD) in children, young people and adults. Parliament. The health professions regulators are now Primary care trusts (PCTs) are expected to follow this required to produce an annual report and a strategic guidance, although local service provision is a matter plan which must be laid before Parliament. for individual PCTs. The Minister of State for Health and Lord Darzi No departmental estimate has been made of the have also written to the Leaders of the House of Commons incidence of adult ADHD. NICE evaluated the efficacy and House of Lords to recommend that Parliament and cost-effectiveness of ADHD treatments in preparing establish a committee on professional regulation. “Clinical Guideline 72”.

Heart Diseases: Health Services Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will consider the merits of a strategy to support Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for adults with adult deficit hyperactivity disorder akin to Health pursuant to the answer of 18 June 2009, Official that for adults with autism. [283296] Report, column 473W,on heart diseases: health services, how many finished consultant episodes for congenital Phil Hope: Guidance to help health care professionals heart disease in those aged 16 years and older there in England to commission, together with other relevant were in each hospital trust in 2007-08. [282202] agencies, an effective service for the diagnosis and management of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder Ann Keen: A table which shows how many finished in adults (ADHD) was issued in September 2008 by the consultant episodes for congenital heart disease for National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. those aged 16 and over, by hospital provider, in 2007-08, has been placed in the Library. The Department does not feel that the delivery of support for adults with deficit hyperactivity would be Hospital Beds: Essex best met by developing a separate strategy and a copy of the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health guidance has been placed in the Library. how many beds were available to mental health patients in the South Essex Strategic Health Authority in each of the last five years. [282811] Independent Review of NHS Dental Services in England

Phil Hope: Data are not collected in the format Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for requested. Data are available for the South Essex Health (1) how much his Department spent on the Partnership NHS Foundation Trust and are shown in Independent Review of NHS Dental Services in England; the following table. and if he will make a statement; [283107] Number of beds available to mental health patients in the South Essex area in each of the last five years1 (2) what remuneration was provided to members of the review team for the Independent Review of NHS South Essex Partnership NHS Foundation Trust Number Dental Services in England. [283113]

2003-04 478 Ann Keen: The review cost a total of £435,000. This 2004-05 512 figure remains an estimate as some invoices are still to 2005-06 516 be finalised. 2006-07 497 2007-08 511 Remuneration for members of the review team was in the form of payments, where requested, to their employing 1 Average daily number of available beds in wards open overnight, mental illness sector. organisations for their services and support costs. Payments Source: to the employing organisations totalled £200,000. Department of Health form KH03 The following table showing the break down of the Hyperactivity costs of the review includes the total payments to review members’ employers. A document containing Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the information on the review costs has been placed in (1) what recent guidance his Department has issued to the Library. It is also available on the Department’s primary care trusts on the provision of services to website at: adults with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder; www.dh.gov.uk/en/Healthcare/Primarycare/Dental/ [283293] DH_094048 343W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 344W

Estimated costs of the independent review of national health service Lung Cancer: Medical Treatments dental services in England Total Item (£000) Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many acute hospital trusts have fully February 2009 Qualitative research 54 implemented his Department’s recommendations on February-June Engagement events 139 the proportion of lung cancer patients who should 2009 receive active treatment; and if he will make a December 2008- Review team travel and subsistence 22 statement. [282415] June 2009 December 2008- Payment to employers for services of 200 June 2009 review team members and support Ann Keen: The national health service has fully costs implemented guidance on Improving Outcomes in Lung June 2009 Publication and launch costs 20 Cancer, which was published by the Department in Total 435 1998. Note: As I advised the hon. Member in my written reply of This is an estimate of the additional costs to the Department in 16 June 2009, Official Report, column 226W,the National supporting the review, incorporating estimates for some bills, which Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence issued guidelines, are yet to be finalised. Final costs for the review will be made available once these are complete. in 2005, on the diagnosis and treatment of lung cancer patients.

Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Lymphoedema: Breast Cancer Health what estimate his Department has made of the cost of running pilot schemes relating to recommendations of the Independent Review of NHS Dental Services in Anne Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Health England. [283109] how many NHS patients were treated for lymphoedema in each year since 2004; how many of those patients received treatment after being diagnosed and treated for Ann Keen: It is too early to estimate the extra costs of breast cancer; what plans the NHS has to change methods piloting the review recommendations. Estimating costs of collection of data on lymphoedema treatment; and if will be part of the process of designing the pilots, which he will make a statement. [282614] is now in development. Ann Keen: This information is not held centrally. Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for We currently have no plans to change the methods of Health what his timetable is for pilot schemes relating data collection on lymphoedema treatment. to recommendations of the Independent Review of NHS Dental Services in England. [283110] NHS Trusts: Mental Health

Ann Keen: Piloting of the recommendations made by Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Professor Jimmy Steele, chair of the independent review (1) what (a) funding and (b) facilities his Department of national health service dental services in England, has provided to NHS trusts for the treatment of will begin with selected new contracts that are currently patients with bipolar disorder in the last 12 months; being set up with the support of the dental access [282905] programme, in autumn of this year. Pilots involving (2) how many people have been diagnosed with existing contract holders on a voluntary basis will begin bi-polar disorder in (a) England, (b) the North East, next year. The Department expects to run the pilots for (c) Teesside and (d) Middlesbrough South and East at least 12 to 18 months, before evaluating the results Cleveland constituency in the last 10 years. [282906] and considering further roll out. “NHS dental Services in England: An independent Phil Hope: Decisions about the funding and provision review led by Professor Jimmy Steele” has already been of local services, including those for bi-polar disorder placed in the Library and is available at: are for local national health service trusts. www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ Since 2001-02, real terms investment in adult mental PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_101137 health services increased by 44 per cent. (or £1.7 billion) putting in place the services and staff needed to transform mental health services. The national health service spent Intensive Care £5.53 billion on these services in 2007-08 (£3.844 billion in 2001-02). Information on the number of people diagnosed with Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health bi-polar disorder in England is not collected centrally. how many episodes of intensive care treatment were provided by the NHS in 2008. [282771] The following table shows counts of finished consultant episodes for the period 1998-99 to 2007-08 for selected strategic health authorities in the north east and England Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information on the number of as a whole for national health service hospitals and episodes of intensive care treatment in England is not national health service commissioned activity in the available centrally and can be obtained only at independent sector where the primary diagnosis was disproportionate cost. bipolar affective disorder. 345W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 346W

Counts of finished consultant episodes (FCEs) where primary NHS: Death Rates diagnosis was bipolar affective disorder (ICD-10 Code= F31): Activity in English national health service hospitals and English national health service commissioned activity in the independent sector. Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Data years 1998-99 to 2007-08 pursuant to the answer of 11 May 2009, Official Selected strategic Report, column 628W, on NHS: death rates, what the health authorities England names are of the trusts concerned in each of the 85 alerts. [282939] 1998-991 865 12,767 1999-20001 675 12,980 Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Care Quality Commission,

1 which took over from the Healthcare Commission on 2000-01 652 12,996 1 April 2009, has informed us that they intend to 2001-021 842 13,727 publish information on alerts, including the names of 2002-031 617 14,422 the trusts involved, once the case is closed. A case is closed once the alert has been reviewed and concluded 1 2003-04 844 13,839 upon and any necessary action plan is in place. 75 out of 2004-051 765 14,179 the 85 alerts are closed and the Care Quality Commission 2005-061 658 12,993 will publish this information within the next few weeks.

2 2006-07 860 12,871 NHS: Finance 2007-082 324 12,716 Notes: Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Finished Consultant Episode (FCE) for Health pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2009, A finished consultant episode (FCE) is defined as a continuous Official Report, column 494, on NHS debts, what the period of admitted patient care under one consultant within one health care provider, FCEs are counted against the year in which they amount is of each loan provided by his Department to end. The figures do not represent the number of different patients, as NHS trusts; what interest rate is payable on each; and a person may have more than one episode of care within the same stay what the expected redemption date is of each. [283204] in hospital or in different stays in the same year. Selected strategic health authorities (SHAs) Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department makes loans for 1 Counts for SHAs include patients whose SHA of residence was Northumberland, Tyne and Wear Strategic HA and County Durham capital investment and for working capital to national and Tees Valley Strategic HA for each year between 1998-99 and health service trusts. Details of originating loan amount, 2005-06. associated interest rate and expected redemption date 2 Counts for SHAs include patients whose SHA of residence was for each outstanding loans are given in the following North East Strategic HA for each year between 2006-07 and 2007-08. table. Primary care trust (PCT)/SHA data quality PCT and SHA data was added to historic data years in the HES Loan value, interest rate and expected redemption date on current loans to NHS database using 2002-03 boundaries, as a one-off exercise in 2004. The trusts from the Department of Health quality of the data on PCT of treatment and SHA of treatment is National poor in 1996-97, 1997-98 and 1998-99, with over a third of all finished Original loan fund Expected full episodes having missing values in these years. Data quality of PCT of loan value rate1 settlement 2 general practitioner (GP) practice and SHA of GP practice in 1997-98 NHS trust name (£000) (percentage) date and 1998-99 is also poor, with a high proportion missing values where Southampton University 3,000 4.85 15 March 2018 practices changed or ceased to exist. There is less change in completeness Hospitals NHS Trust of the residence-based fields over time, where the majority of unknown Queen Elizabeth Hospital 3,480 4.86 15 September values are due to missing postcodes on birth episodes. Users of time Kings Lynn NHS Trust 2015 series analysis including these years need to be aware of these issues in their interpretation of the data. Rob Jones and a Hunt 500 4.85 15 September Orthopaedic NHS Trust 2017 Data quality Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) are compiled from data sent by North East Ambulance 700 4.88 15 March 2015 more than 300 national health service trusts and PCTs in England. Service NHS Trust Data are also received from a number of independent sector organisations Southampton University 7,500 4.19 15 March 2018 for activity commissioned by the English national health service. The Hospitals NHS Trust National Health Service Information Centre for health and social Oxford Radcliffe Hospital 6,141 4.19 15 March 2018 care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission NHS Trust of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and West Hertfordshire NHS 13,500 5.40 15 March 2018 the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this Trust brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. West Hertfordshire NHS 13,500 5.40 15 March 2018 Assessing growth through time Trust HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and Buckinghamshire Hospitals 7,000 4.88 15 September coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in NHS Trust 2013 information submitted by the national health service have been particularly South Central Ambulance 3,454 4.88 15 September marked in the earlier years and need to be borne in mind when Service NHS Trust 2013 analysing time series. Southampton University 8,000 4.85 15 September Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 Hospitals NHS Trust 2018 onwards) may be due to the improvement in the coverage of independent Great Western Ambulance 2,460 2.82 15 March 2014 sector activity. Service NHS Trust Changes in national health service practice also need to be borne in East Sussex Hospitals NHS 1,500 3.48 15 March 2019 mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures Trust may now be undertaken in outpatient settings and may no longer be South Central Ambulance 3,551 3.48 15 March 2019 accounted for in the HES data. This may account for any reductions Service NHS Trust in activity over time. Source: Hull and East Yorkshire 12,300 3.65 15 March 2029 Hospitals NHS Trust Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The National Health Service Information Centre for health and social care Hereford Hospitals NHS 800 2.69 15 March 2019 Trust 347W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 348W

Loan value, interest rate and expected redemption date on current loans to NHS Loan value, interest rate and expected redemption date on current loans to NHS trusts from the Department of Health trusts from the Department of Health National National Original loan fund Expected full Original loan fund Expected full loan value rate1 settlement loan value rate1 settlement NHS trust name (£000) (percentage) date2 NHS trust name (£000) (percentage) date2

Oxford Radcliffe Hospital 7,900 2.69 15 March 2019 St George’s Healthcare 34,000 5.45 15 March 2012 NHS Trust NHS Trust Plymouth Hospitals NHS 7,000 2.69 15 March 2019 North West London 23,830 5.45 15 March 2012 Trust Hospitals NHS Trust North Cumbria Acute 400 5.10 15 March 2022 Barnet and Chase Farm 17,500 5.45 15 March 2011 Hospital NHS Trust Hospitals NHS Trust Scarborough and North 765 5.20 15 March 2012 Epsom and St Helier 14,000 5.50 15 March 2010 East Yorks NHS Trust University Hospitals NHS St George Healthcare NHS 250 5.20 15 March 2012 Trust Trust Western Sussex NHS Trust 17,005 5.35 15 March 2015 Western Sussex NHS Trust 1,063 5.15 15 March 2015 Western Sussex NHS Trust 23,000 5.20 15 March 2021 North Cumbria Acute 400 4.34 15 March 2022 Ashford and St Peter’s 14,700 5.40 15 March 2013 Hospital NHS Trust Hospitals NHS Trust Scarborough and North 764 3.98 15 March 2012 Surrey and Sussex 56,000 4.95 15 March 2032 East Yorks NHS Trust Healthcare NHS Trust St George Healthcare NHS 4,550 3.98 15 March 2012 East Sussex Hospitals NHS 4,000 5.45 15 March 2011 Trust Trust Barnet and Chase Farm 1,782 3.97 15 March 2011 Brighton and Sussex 29,322 5.40 15 March 2013 NHS Trust University Hospitals NHS Western Sussex NHS Trust 1,063 4.07 15 March 2015 Trust Brighton and Sussex 4,888 4.01 15 March 2013 Southampton University 25,000 5.45 15 March 2011 University Hospitals NHS Hospitals NHS Trust Trust Winchester and Eastleigh 5,000 5.45 15 March 2011 Royal Cornwall Hospitals 2,597 1.16 15 March 2011 Healthcare NHS Trust NHS Trust Oxford Radcliffe Hospital 19,986 5.40 15 March 2013 Western Area NHS Trust 800 . 1.40 15 March 2012 NHS Trust East Cheshire NHS Trust 7,000 5.50 15 March 2010 Royal United Hospital Bath 38,000 5.05 15 March 2027 NHS Trust Trafford Healthcare NHS 1,700 5.50 15 March 2010 Trust North Bristol NHS Trust 52,000 5.05 15 March 2027 North Cumbria Acute 12,000 5.20 15 March 2022 Avon and Wiltshire Mental 5,000 5.45 15 March 2012 Hospitals NHS Trust Health Partnership NHS Trust University Hospitals of 6,500 5.50 15 March 2010 Morecambe Bay NHS Trust Trafford Healthcare NHS 3,000 4.19 15 March 2018 Trust Scarborough and North 7,646 5.45 15 March 2012 East Yorks NHS Trust Mid Yorkshire Hospitals 31,400 5.29 15 March 2011 NHS Trust Hull and East Yorkshire 10,896 5.45 15 March 2012 Hospitals NHS Trust University Hospitals of 16,000 5.31 15 March 2013 Coventry and Warwickshire South Warwickshire 18,500 5.35 15 March 2015 NHS Trust General Hospitals NHS Trust Royal Wolverhampton 5,500 5.31 15 March 2013 Hospitals NHS Trust Rob Jones and a Hunt 3,400 5.50 15 March 2010 Orthopaedic NHS Trust Weston Area Health 14,300 5.32 15 March 2015 Authority Hereford Hospitals NHS 3,279 5.50 15 March 2010 Trust Royal Cornwall Hospitals 46,125 5.32 15 March 2015 NHS Trust George Eliot Hospital NHS 6,800 5.45 15 March 2012 Trust West Middlesex University 17,000 5.31 15 March 2013 NHS Trust Worcestershire Acute 25,000 5.45 15 March 2012 Hospitals NHS Trust West Suffolk Hospitals 5,000 4.69 15 September NHS Trust 2013 Shrewsbury and Telford 12,299 5.50 15 March 2010 Hospital NHS Trust Barnet and Chase Farm 2,000 0.82 15 September Hospitals NHS Trust 2009 Queen Elizabeth Hospital 6,300 5.50 15 March 2010 Kings Lynn NHS Trust East Cheshire NHS Trust 2,533 2.39 15 March 2017 1 Ipswich Hospital NHS 23,400 5.35 15 March 2014 Fixed for term 2 Trust Redemption date West Suffolk Hospitals 1,950 5.50 15 March 2010 NHS: Manpower NHS Trust Mid Essex Hospital 23,400 5.45 15 March 2012 Services NHS Trust Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Princess Alexandra 13,650 5.45 15 March 2012 what central agreements the NHS has entered into Hospital NHS Trust for the supply of temporary workers to NHS West Hertfordshire 11,200 5.45 15 March 2012 organisations; what rates of pay have been set through Hospitals NHS Trust such central agreements; and how many temporary East and North 7,800 5.45 15 March 2012 Hertfordshire NHS Trust staff have been employed through them. [282772] North Middlesex 15,000 5.45 15 March 2012 University Hospital NHS Ann Keen: The NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency Trust (PASA) has negotiated the following national framework Whipps Cross University 26,294 5.30 15 March 2016 agreements on behalf of the national health service: Hospital NHS Trust Medical Locums; Mayday Healthcare NHS 11,000 5.50 15 March 2010 Trust Nursing; 349W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 350W

Allied Health Professionals and Health Science Service staff; NHS: Reserve Forces Professional and Administrative Services; and Ancillary : To ask the Secretary of State for All agreements for temporary staffing negotiated by Health what support the NHS provides to staff who NHS PASA are subject to national conditions and wish to volunteer for the Reserve Forces; and what terms of contract, which are designed to protect the guidance his Department provides to the NHS on the NHS. All participating national framework suppliers matter. [283079] are required to commit to and sign up to the national Ann Keen: “The Healthy Workplaces Handbook” terms negotiated. published by NHS Employers in 2007 includes advice NHS PASA framework agreements are not mandated for employers and employees on issues that should be for use within the NHS and trusts at their own discretion considered in respect of staff who wish to undertake can elect to establish their own local contractual voluntary activities that may impact on their national arrangements for the supply of temporary staff. health service work. A copy of the relevant section has Due to the NHS being the predominant purchaser of been placed in the Library. In 2004, the Department clinical temporary staff, these central agreements are published “Improving Working Lives: The Value of not able to set the rates of pay for such temporary staff. supporting staff who volunteer” which was designed to However, Framework Agencies have undergone a public persuade NHS employers to encourage volunteering by procurement process that encourages ensures that the their staff and includes a section on the volunteer hourly pay rates awarded are: reserve forces. A copy of this has been placed in the cost effective and best value for money for the NHS; Library. competitive within the marketplace; and that they are NHS: Standards sustainable, in terms of Framework Agency resilience during challenging economic climates and attractiveness to the temporary Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health staff employed. what steps he plans to take to reduce the number of There is therefore a range of hourly pay rates available central targets which the NHS has to meet. [282774] through these central agreements and it is the choice of the NHS body to determine which Framework Agency Mr. Mike O’Brien: “The Operating Framework for or other temporary staff provider used to meet their the NHS in England 2009-10” set no new national local requirements. These rates do not contravene any targets. On 30 June 2009, my noble Friend the Parliamentary Minimum Wage Act or Equal Pay Act legislative Under-Secretary of State (Lord Darzi) published “High compliance. Quality Care for All: Our journey so far”, which confirmed our intention to minimise the burden on frontline staff Information on the number of staff supplied through by reducing unnecessary data collection and removing the framework agreements is not collected centrally but obsolete targets and commitments. the number of hours supplied to the NHS through the frameworks over a 12 month period from 1 April 2008 Nurses: Schools to 31 March 2009 (data provided is an extrapolation of data provided from 1 April 2008 to 31 December 2008) Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Health is in the following table. what his Department’s target for the number of school nurses is; what his most recent assessment is of Number progress in meeting that target; and if he will make a Medical locums 2,696,341 statement. [282382] Nursing 6,087,209 Ann Keen: The Public Health White Paper, “Choosing Allied Health Professionals 1,999,240 Health: Making healthy choices easier”, published in Health Science Service Staff 1,013,188 November 2004, included the commitment to provide Professional and Administrative 15,633,410 Services new funding so that by 2010 every primary care trust, working with children’s trusts and local authorities, will Ancillary 1,258,342 be resourced to have at least one full-time, year-round, NHS PASA do not collect data from non-framework qualified school nurse working with each cluster or agencies, so this data does not provide coverage of NHS group of primary schools and the related secondary trusts electing not to use their framework agreements or school, taking account of health needs and school local procurement arrangements. populations. There are around 3,000 state secondary schools in England. The 2008 NHS Workforce Census showed Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health there were 3,643 qualified nurses in school nursing when NHS Employers entered into an agreement with areas, an increase of 51 per cent. since 2004. Of these, Solace Enterprises to provide the NHS Flexible there were 1,447 school nurses with a post registration Resourcing Service; how much has been spent by each school nurse qualification. This is an increase of 591 or NHS organisation on interim staff employed through 69 per cent. since 2004. the service; and how many interim staff have been employed by each NHS organisation through the Parliamentary Bulletins service. [282776] Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Ann Keen: The Department does not collect this data for Health what amendments (a) he has and (b) centrally. This is a matter for NHS Employers. officials in his Department have proposed to draft 351W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 352W parliamentary bulletins to be issued by the (i) agencies Trust and (b) other primary care trusts in the North and (ii) non-Ministerial department overseen by his West needed to pay for hospital services in 2009-10; Department in the last 12 months. [280992] and if he will make a statement. [282520] Ann Keen: The Department has estimated the change Phil Hope: No changes have been requested by in hospital national tariff income and the resulting departmental Ministers to draft parliamentary bulletins change in primary care trust (PCT) expenditure between to be issued by its agencies and arms length bodies. 2008-09 and 2009-10 that is due to changes to the tariff Departmental officials proposed one amendment to a in 2009-10. This is shown in the following table for the draft bulletin from the Appointments Commission: an East Lancashire Teaching PCT and other PCTs in the amendment was requested to the first edition of North West Strategic Health Authority (SHA) area. Westminster (issue 1 Winter 08/09), and a reference to chairs’ remuneration was removed from the bulletin As the analysis uses historical activity data from prior to publication. 2006-07 and 2007-08, national assumptions which may vary locally, and historical estimates of PCT commissioning The Food Standards Agency, a non-ministerial patterns, it can only be an estimate of the changes to Government Department, produces regular parliamentary PCT expenditure in 2009-10 for services covered by the bulletins. The Secretary of State, Ministers and departmental national tariff. officials have on occasion proposed minor amendments but no records are kept of such requests. Impact analysis of change in expenditure due to national tariff changes in 2009-10 for PCTs in the North West SHA area Estimated change in Primary Care Trusts: Aiming High expenditure in 2009-10 PCT (£ million)

Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Ashton, Leigh and Wigan PCT 6.2 (1) what plans he has to involve parents in the (a) Blackburn with Darwen PCT 1.0 planning and (b) delivery of Aiming High commissioning Blackpool PCT -0.9 by primary care trusts; [283059] Bolton PCT 3.8 (2) what mechanisms are in place to ensure that Bury PCT 2.7 funding allocated to primary care trusts for Aiming Central and Eastern Cheshire PCT -0.8 High short breaks is spent on short break services. Central Lancashire PCT -2.3 [283060] Cumbria Teaching PCT -1.7 East Lancashire Teaching PCT 2.6 Phil Hope: We are putting in place a number of Halton and St. Helens PCT 0.9 measures to encourage primary care trusts (PCTs) and Heywood, Middleton and Rochdale 3.3 local authorities (LA) to involve parents in the planning PCT and delivery of services for disabled children. This Knowsley PCT 1.1 includes £500,000 in 2008-09, rising to £1.5 million in Liverpool PCT 6.3 2009-10, available to LAs for the support for parent Manchester PCT -2.1 forums. Parent forums give an opportunity to parents North Lancashire Teaching PCT -2.4 of disabled children to express their views on the services Oldham PCT 3.8 they receive. Salford PCT 3.6 We have also introduced an indicator to measure Sefton PCT 4.2 parental satisfaction with services for disabled children. Stockport PCT -1.0 This will reflect results for each PCT and LA against all Tameside and Glossop PCT 2.6 five of the Aiming High for Disabled Children core Trafford PCT -0.5 offer standards. Warrington PCT 0.8 In “Healthy lives, brighter futures—the strategy for Western Cheshire PCX -0.8 children and young people’s health” a copy of which Wirral PCT -4.6 has already been placed in the Library, we confirmed Notes: £340 million NHS funding over three years for services 1. Figures are in 2008-09 prices. for disabled children, including short breaks. The funding 2. A positive figure represents an increase in expenditure. A negative is in included in PCT baselines. The 2009-10 NHS figure represents a decrease in expenditure. Operating Framework challenges PCTs to review their 3. Figures include the effect of the introduction of the new market forces factor. service offer in line with “Healthy lives, brighter futures” 4. Based on historical activity from 2007-08 (in-patients and day (published February 2009) and reflect any amendments cases) and 2006-07 (out-patients). in their Operational Plans. Following publication of 5. Based on scope of 2009-10 tariff on a like-for-like activity basis. “Healthy lives, brighter futures” we have mandated a 6. Some activity data has been removed from the analysis due to local statement by PCTs setting out their actions on issues with data quality. 7. Assumes no change in income for accident and emergency between services for disabled children, either alone or in partnership 2008-09 and 2009-10. with the local strategic partnership, alongside their 8. Uses national assumptions, in particular on the effect of non-mandatory performance against the full set of vital signs in 2008-09. out-patient procedures. 9. 2009-10 income does not include top-ups applied to long stay—excess bed days. Primary Care Trusts: North West 10. Costs for unbundled outpatients diagnostic imaging have been added into 2009-10 figures by provider. 11. Change in national health service provider income mapped to Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State PCTs using a purchaser provider matrix based on 2007-08 admitted for Health what estimate he has made of the change in patient care tariff applied to 2005-06 converted hospital episode the tariff of (a) NHS East Lancashire Primary Care statistics (HES). 353W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 354W

Screening have been placed in the Library. This work identified that a national five-year call and recall programme for Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health those aged between 40 and 74 was both clinically and with reference to page 50 of his Department’s report, cost effective. Vascular checks: risk assessment and management, We understand that within some primary care trusts when he expects (a) to publish guidance to primary (PCTs), calling people into the programme earlier from care trusts on health inequalities and (b) the test bed particular communities may have additional benefits, sites in Spearhead primary care trusts to become for example, where PCTs have significant South Asian operational. [280412] communities. This scenario was not tested through the modelling. However, PCTs can decide to extend the Ann Keen: Since the publication of the report referred programme if they wish, where they anticipate that to by the hon. Member the Department has published additional benefits will accrue. two guidance documents for primary care trusts on the implementation of the NHS Health Check Programme. Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health ’Next Steps’ Guidance for Primary Care Trusts was what estimate has been made of the cost of providing published in November 2008. The NHS Health Check: an IT support system for the NHS health check. Vascular Risk Assessment and Management Best Practice [280417] Guidance was published in April 2009. Both guidance documents contain material relevant to health inequalities Ann Keen: Work is in hand to define the information and copies have already been placed in the Library. technology requirements to support the delivery of the Next Steps outlines how the Health Checks Programme NHS Health Checks programme. Costs will depend on (at that stage still referred to as Vascular Checks) fits which option is chosen to deliver it. the Department’s wider aims on tackling health inequalities. Smoking Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to page 32 of his Department’s report, Mr. Greg Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Vascular checks: risk assessment and management, Health if he will consult the public on their views on when he expects his Department’s call and recall exemptions to the prohibition in smoking in public system to become operational. [280413] places for pubs and clubs; and if he will make a statement. [283117] Ann Keen: We are currently working on the development of a call and recall system with a view to having it in Gillian Merron: Before the introduction of the smoke place during 2012-13. free law in England a commitment was given to complete a review after three years. The review will be carried out Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in 2010. with reference to page 27 of his Department’s report, Social Services: Applications Vascular checks: risk assessment and management, what guidance has been issued to primary care trusts on providing training in order that staff can most Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Health effectively convey an understanding of the risks how many applications for health and social care revealed by the NHS health check. [280414] support services were refused following a positive assessment of need by a specialist in (a) England, (b) Ann Keen: The NHS Health Check: Vascular Risk Essex and (c) Castle Point in each of the last three Assessment and Management Best Practice Guidance, years. [282815] published in April 2009, addresses workforce and training issues. A copy has already been placed in the Library. In Phil Hope: This information is not collected. addition, we have made training available, at no cost to Standing Commission on Carers primary care trusts (PCTs), to support the delivery of the programme. This training includes how to communicate Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State a person’s risk of vascular disease in a way that is for Health on what dates the Standing Commission on understandable. In addition, PCTs are developing their Carers has met; and if he will publish the minutes of own materials to support those conducting the risk each meeting. [283265] assessment element of the NHS Health Check and help explain to people what their risk score means. We are sharing examples of these approaches through the Learning Phil Hope: The Standing Commission on Carers has Network. met 11 times since its establishment in September 2007. The dates were: Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2007 what the evidential basis is for deciding that 40 years 12 December will be the lower age limit for the NHS health check. 2008 [280416] 11 January 23 January Ann Keen: To support the development of the NHS Health Check, the Department undertook modelling 20 February work to better understand the likely cost and clinical 28 April effectiveness of the programme. Both the technical 2 July consultation on the modelling and the impact assessment 16 December 355W Written Answers1 JULY 2009 Written Answers 356W

2009 Appointments. Details of the next phase of the 25 February Commission’s work will also be placed on the Commission’s website. 1 April Thrombosis: Hospitals 28 April 23 June John Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer of 5 May 2009, Official Report, The Standing Commission on Carers will place details columns 80-4W, on death certificates, what estimate he of the proceedings of these meetings on its website by has made of the proportion of cases of fatal 31 July: thrombosis which have been acquired during a hospital www.dh.gov.uk/ab/SCOC/index.htm stay; and if he will make a statement. [281702] Appointments are now being made to the Standing Ann Keen: The information is not currently available. Commission on Carers in accordance with guidance We are working with the Office for National Statistics from the Office of the Commissioner for Public on this issue.

5MC Ministerial Corrections1 JULY 2009 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

Ministerial Correction Aircraft type Required Actual TriStar 48 46 Wednesday 1 July 2009 C17A 53 46 HS125 17 16 BAe146 10 7 GR4 134 129 DEFENCE Typhoon 60 68 Air Force: Manpower F3 23 30 Harrier 48 48 Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Nimrod MR2 58 46 what the (a) required and (b) actual number of pilots Nimrod R1 10 10 for each aircraft type in the RAF is. [279958] Sentinel R1 21 14 [Official Report, 15 June 2009, Vol. 494, c. 2W.] E3D 32 28 KingAir 32 27 Letter of correction from Bill Rammell: Dominie 15 9 An error has been identified in the written answer Tutor 31 46 given to the hon. Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) on Tucano 50 47 15 June 2009. Unfortunately, an arithmetical error was Hawk 97 84 made calculating the total number of pilots required. Puma 96 85 All other figures used in the table are correct as originally recorded. Chinook 101 93 Merlin 75 64 The correct answer should have been: Squirrel 18 16 Bill Rammell: The information is provided in the SeaKing 89 74 following table: Griffin 22 23 Augusta 109 5 5 Aircraft type Required Actual Predator 8 8 Reaper 14 11 C130J 133 130 Islander 7 7 C130K 73 79 Total 1,444 1,347 VC10 64 51

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 1 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 283 CABINET OFFICE—continued Business Disruption Plans...... 285 Grassroots Grants...... 291 Charities (Economic Downturn)...... 288 Third Sector Funding ...... 290 Charities (Economic Downturn)...... 291 Voluntary Sector ...... 285 Civil Service Reform...... 283 Community Asset Transfers...... 290 PRIME MINISTER ...... 292 Democratic Renewal ...... 287 Engagements...... 292 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 1 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 17WS TRANSPORT ...... 21WS Education (Student Support) Regulations ...... 17WS Franchised Rail Services ...... 21WS DEFENCE...... 18WS Armed Forces Recognition...... 18WS JUSTICE...... 21WS WALES...... 22WS The Law on Damages ...... 21WS Legislative Competence Order (Culture) ...... 22WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 1 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 319W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 306W Apprentices: Day Care ...... 319W Apprentices...... 306W Banks: Finance ...... 319W Departmental Older Workers...... 307W Broadband ...... 320W Further Education: Standards...... 307W Broadband: Rural Areas ...... 320W Departmental Billing ...... 320W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 308W Departmental Buildings...... 321W Business: Government Assistance ...... 308W Departmental Data Protection...... 321W Council of Regional Ministers ...... 308W Departmental Energy...... 321W Council Tax: Appeals...... 308W Departmental Food...... 322W Councillors ...... 309W Departmental Internet ...... 322W Disabled Facilities Grants ...... 311W Departmental Pay ...... 322W Empty Property ...... 312W Digital Broadcasting ...... 323W Homelessness...... 312W Digital Broadcasting: Wales...... 324W Housing: Construction...... 314W Domestic Appliances: Safety...... 324W Housing: Crosby ...... 313W English Language: Education ...... 324W Housing: Energy ...... 315W Evening Standard: Sales...... 325W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 315W Exports: Israel...... 325W Housing: Prices ...... 316W Higher Education: Student Numbers...... 326W Housing Revenue Accounts ...... 314W Insolvency: Advisory Services ...... 326W Invest to Save Budget ...... 316W Loans: Interest Rates ...... 327W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 317W Manufacturing Industries: Devon ...... 327W Non-domestic Rates: Ports...... 318W Minimum Wage ...... 327W Social Rented Housing: Energy...... 318W National Skills Academies ...... 328W Supporting People Programme ...... 318W National Vocational Qualifications: Finance...... 328W Temporary Accommodation: Merseyside ...... 319W Overseas Trade...... 329W Phorm...... 330W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 291W Prisoners ...... 330W Cultural Heritage: Theft...... 291W Royal Mail: Rural Areas ...... 330W Digital Switchover: Finance...... 291W Students: Radicalism...... 330W English Heritage: Finance...... 292W English Heritage: Monuments...... 293W Sport: Essex ...... 293W CABINET OFFICE...... 305W Sports: Public Participation ...... 294W Business Disruption Plans...... 306W Charities: Economic Downturn ...... 305W DEFENCE...... 245W Emergency Planning College...... 306W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 245W Lobbying: Government...... 306W Air Force: Military Aircraft ...... 246W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HEALTH—continued Army: Clothing...... 247W Parliamentary Bulletins...... 350W Defence: Inflation Index ...... 248W Primary Care Trusts: Aiming High ...... 351W Departmental Older Workers...... 248W Primary Care Trusts: North West...... 351W Nuclear Weapons: Arms Control ...... 248W Screening ...... 353W Smoking...... 354W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 250W Social Services: Applications...... 354W Committee on Climate Change: Buildings ...... 250W Standing Commission on Carers...... 354W Fuel Poverty...... 251W Thrombosis: Hospitals...... 356W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 269W AFFAIRS...... 251W Asylum: Northern Ireland ...... 269W Beaches: Barmston...... 251W Borders: Personal Records ...... 270W Departmental Energy...... 252W Cannabis...... 270W Departmental Food...... 252W Crime: Alcoholic Drinks...... 271W Forests ...... 252W Crime: Cambridgeshire ...... 272W Water Charges: Voluntary Organisations ...... 253W Cycling...... 273W Departmental Data Protection...... 273W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 281W Departmental Energy...... 274W Burma: Ethnic Groups...... 281W Departmental Food...... 275W Colombia ...... 282W Departmental Procurement...... 276W Delara Darabi ...... 282W DNA: Databases...... 275W Departmental Billing ...... 283W Entry Clearances...... 277W Departmental Contracts ...... 283W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 279W Departmental Opinion Polls ...... 285W Immigration...... 279W Eritrea: Human Rights ...... 285W Immigration: Bicester...... 279W G8: Meetings ...... 286W Immigration: Zimbabwe...... 279W Iran: Demonstrations...... 287W Serious Organised Crime Agency...... 280W Iran: Politics and Government ...... 287W Serious Organised Crime Agency: Pay ...... 280W Israel: Prisoners ...... 288W Wildlife: Crime...... 280W North Korea: Diplomatic Service...... 288W Nuclear Weapons...... 288W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 249W Nuclear Weapons: Arms Control ...... 288W Members: Allowances ...... 249W Sudan: Elections ...... 289W Sudan: Peace Negotiations...... 289W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 299W Terrorism: Compensation ...... 290W Afghanistan: Overseas Aid...... 299W Western Sahara: Fisheries ...... 291W Bangladesh: Overseas Aid...... 300W Departmental Manpower...... 300W HEALTH...... 331W Departmental Pay ...... 300W Accident and Emergency Departments: Alcoholic Departmental Public Expenditure...... 301W Drinks...... 331W Departmental Publications ...... 301W Cancer: Health Services ...... 331W Developing Countries: Languages...... 301W Cancer: Screening ...... 333W Development Aid...... 302W Cardiovascular System: Screening...... 333W Gaza ...... 302W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ...... 334W India: Overseas Aid...... 303W Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence ...... 334W Maternal Health Strategy...... 303W Dental Services: South Yorkshire...... 335W Pakistan: International Assistance ...... 304W Dentistry: Staffordshire...... 335W Parliamentary Questions: Government Responses. 304W Departmental Billing ...... 337W Sri Lanka: International Assistance ...... 304W Departmental Data Protection...... 337W Thailand and Burma...... 304W Departmental Energy...... 338W Departmental Legislation ...... 338W JUSTICE...... 259W Departmental Pay ...... 340W Crimes against Property: Fines...... 259W Doctors: Working Hours ...... 340W Departmental Information Officers ...... 260W Domestic Accidents: North East...... 340W Departmental Pay ...... 261W Health Professions: Regulation ...... 340W Harassment: Fines ...... 261W Heart Diseases: Health Services ...... 341W National Probation Service for England and Hospital Beds: Essex...... 341W Wales: Secondment ...... 263W Hyperactivity ...... 341W Offences against Children: Sentencing ...... 264W Independent Review of NHS Dental Services in Probation ...... 264W England ...... 342W Probation Officers: Manpower...... 265W Intensive Care ...... 343W Young Offender Institutions: Injuries...... 265W Lung Cancer: Medical Treatments ...... 344W Young Offender Institutions: Suicide ...... 267W Lymphoedema: Breast Cancer ...... 344W Young Offenders: Sentencing ...... 269W NHS: Death Rates ...... 346W NHS: Finance ...... 346W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 250W NHS: Manpower ...... 348W Ministerial Duties: Working Hours...... 250W NHS: Reserve Forces ...... 350W NHS: Standards...... 350W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 249W NHS Trusts: Mental Health...... 344W Bill of Rights: Northern Ireland ...... 249W Nurses: Schools...... 350W Departmental Training ...... 249W Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND—continued TREASURY—continued Olympic Games 2012 ...... 249W Financial Services: Crime ...... 256W Members: Correspondence ...... 258W SCOTLAND...... 307W Revenue and Customs: Telephone Services...... 258W Departmental Pay ...... 307W Welfare Tax Credit: Repayments ...... 258W Hebrides Range...... 308W

TRANSPORT ...... 253W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 243W Airports: Carbon Emissions...... 253W Carers: National Insurance Contributions ...... 243W Aviation: Fares...... 253W International Labour Organization...... 243W Multi-Purpose Test Centres ...... 254W Members: Correspondence ...... 243W Public Transport: Hampshire...... 255W New Deal Schemes: South East ...... 244W Railways: Carbon Emissions...... 256W Pension Protection Fund...... 244W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 244W TREASURY ...... 256W Social Security Benefits: Low Incomes...... 244W Banks: Loans...... 256W Unemployment ...... 245W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 1 July 2009

Col. No. DEFENCE...... 5MC Air Force: Manpower ...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 8 July 2009

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £3·50. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £525. WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords, £6. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440. Lords, £225. Index—Single copies: Commons, £6·80—published every three weeks Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS CUMULATIVE INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN compiled by the House of Commons, giving details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. The Annual Subscription includes also automatic despatch of the Sessional Information Digest. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscriptions: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 495 Wednesday No. 103 1 July 2009

CONTENTS

Wednesday 1 July 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 283] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Sustainable Energy (Local Plans) [Col. 306] Bill presented, and read the First time

Dangerous Dogs (Amendment) [Col. 307] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Ms Angela C. Smith)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Parliamentary Standards Bill [Col. 310] Further considered in Committee; read the Third time and passed

Saving Gateway Accounts Bill [Col. 413] Lords amendments considered

National Express East Coast Franchise [Col. 424] Statement—(Mr Khan)

Petition [Col. 438]

Bank Lending Policies [Col. 439] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Motions with Deferred Divisions [Col. 447] Motions on deferred Divisions agreed to

Westminster Hall Railways (North of England) [Col. 71WH] Diversity in Public Appointments [Col. 95WH] Air Quality (Aircraft) [Col. 103WH] Archer Inquiry [Col. 124WH] Energy Security and Nuclear Non-Proliferation [Col. 133WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 17WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 243W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]