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1 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA 2 * * * * 3 House Bill 231 * * * * 4 House Game & Fisheries Committee 5
6 Irvis Office Building Room G-50 7 Harrisburg, Pennsylvania
8 Tuesday, May 12, 2015 - 9:00 a.m. 9 --oOo-- 10
11 COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT:
12 Honorable Keith Gillespie, Majority Chairman Honorable Joe Emrick 13 Honorable Hal English Honorable Mindy Fee 14 Honorable Matthew Gabler Honorable Doyle Heffley 15 Honorable Barry Jozwiak Honorable Mark Keller 16 Honorable David Maloney, Sr. Honorable John McGinnis 17 Honorable Brett Miller Honorable Dan Moul 18 Honorable Mike Peifer Honorable Ryan Warner 19 Honorable Parke Wentling Honorable Ted Harhai, Minority Chairman 20 Honorable Frank Burns Honorable Michael Driscoll 21 Honorable Frank Farina Honorable Marty Flynn 22 Honorable Patrick Harkins Honorable Sid Kavulich 23 Honorable William Kortz Honorable Gerald Mullery 24 Honorable Brian Sims
25 1300 Garrison Drive, York, PA 17404 717.764.7801 Key Reporters [email protected] 2
1 STAFF PRESENT:
2 Greg Raffensperger 3 Majority Executive Director
4 Cheryl Gruber 5 Majority Administrative Assistant
6 Scott Little 7 Majority Public Relations
8 Steve McMullen 9 Minority Executive Director
10 Johnathan Detrick 11 Minority Executive Director
12 Rogette Harris 13 Minority Research Analyst
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Key Reporters [email protected] 3
1 INDEX OF TESTIFIERS TESTIFIERS PAGE 2 Opening statement of Majority Chairman 3 Gillespie...... 4
4 Opening statement of Minority Chairman Harhai...... 4 5 John Kline, Government Liaison...... 7 6 PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs
7 Craig Ebersole, Treasurer...... 19 County of Lancaster & spokesperson for 8 County Treasurer's Association of PA
9 Pennsylvania Game Commission
10 Matthew Hough, Executive Director..... 49 Dorothy Derr, Director...... 56 11 Bureau of Administration Paul Mahon, Director of Automated 12 Technology
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14 SUBMITTED WRITTEN TESTIMONY 15
16 (See other submitted testimony and handouts online.) 17
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20 REQUESTS FOR DOCUMENTATION 21
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Key Reporters [email protected] 4
1 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Good
2 morning, everybody. Welcome to the public hearing
3 of the House Game and Fisheries Committee. I'm
4 Keith Gillespie, the Republican Chair.
5 Today we'll be receiving testimony from
6 several organizations regarding House Bill 231
7 sponsored by Representative Mullery, which seeks to
8 place the antlerless deer application and licensing
9 process under the purview of the Game Commission,
10 via the Pennsylvania Automated Licensing System, or
11 PALS as it's better known.
12 I'd like to call the meeting to order
13 and conceive with business. I'd like to have the
14 members introduce themselves, but first recognize
15 my co-chairman, Representative Harhai.
16 MINORITY CHAIRMAN HARHAI: Thank you,
17 Mr. Chairman.
18 It's been a while since I have been in
19 G-50, so it's good to be back. I want to thank
20 everybody for coming and the testimony we're about
21 to receive. I am state Representative Harhai, and
22 I am the co-chair along with Mr. Gillespie.
23 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: We'll
24 proceed to the left there.
25 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Thank you, Mr.
Key Reporters [email protected] 5
1 Chairman. Gerald Mullery, 119th Legislative
2 District in Luzerne County.
3 REPRESENTATIVE FLYNN: Marty Flynn,
4 Lackawanna County; 113th district.
5 REPRESENTATIVE KORTZ: Good morning,
6 everyone. Bill Kortz, Allegheny County; 38th
7 district.
8 REPRESENTATIVE BURNS: Representative
9 Frank Burns, 72nd district.
10 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Good morning. Dan
11 Moul, 91st district; Adams County.
12 REPRESENTATIVE McGINNIS: Representative
13 John McGinnis, 79th district; Blair County.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Representative
15 David Maloney, Berks County; 130th.
16 REPRESENTATIVE FEE: Mindy Fee, 37th
17 district; Lancaster County. And I'd like to
18 welcome Craig Ebersole from Lancaster County.
19 REPRESENTATIVE KELLER: Good morning.
20 Representative Mark Keller, the 86th district,
21 which is Perry and Cumberland County.
22 REPRESENTATIVE DRISCOLL: Mike Driscoll,
23 Philadelphia County; 173rd.
24 REPRESENTATIVE SIMS: Brian Sims,
25 Philadelphia; 182.
Key Reporters [email protected] 6
1 REPRESENTATIVE WARNER: Good morning.
2 Brian Warner, 52nd district; Fayette and
3 Westmoreland counties.
4 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: Good morning.
5 Hal English, 30th; Allegheny County.
6 REPRESENTATIVE WENTLING: Parke
7 Wentling, 17th district; Lawrence, Mercer, Crawford
8 and Erie County.
9 REPRESENTATIVE JOZWIAK: Barry Jozwiak,
10 105th district, Berks County.
11 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: Good morning.
12 Mike Peifer, 139th district, which includes
13 portions of Pike and Wayne counties.
14 REPRESENTATIVE HARKINS: Good morning.
15 Pat Harkins, 1st district; Erie.
16 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Brett Miller,
17 41st district; Lancaster County. And welcome,
18 Craig Ebersole.
19 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Excellent.
20 I want to thank the committee members for their
21 turnout. Just reminding everybody, this is a
22 session day, so members will be coming and going
23 throughout the meeting.
24 We're pleased to have three
25 organizations testifying before us today. The
Key Reporters [email protected] 7
1 first is the Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's
2 Clubs. John Kline is here on behalf of the
3 Federation. Welcome, John. You may begin when
4 ready.
5 MR. KLINE: Thank you and good morning.
6 Chairman Gillespie, Chairman Harhai, and members of
7 the House Game and Fisheries Committee:
8 I'm John Kline, Director of Government
9 Affairs for the Pennsylvania Federation of
10 Sportsmen's Clubs. On behalf of the officers,
11 individual members, member clubs and member
12 organizations of the Federation, we want to thank
13 you for the opportunity to provide testimony on
14 House Bill 231 regarding the issuance of antlerless
15 deer licenses.
16 Since its inception in 1932, the
17 Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs'
18 mission has been to provide a statewide, united
19 voice for the concerns of all sportsmen and
20 conservationists, to ensure their rights and
21 interests are protected, and to protect and enhance
22 the environment and our natural resources.
23 The Federation is a true grass roots
24 organization, representing approximately 70,000
25 women and men that come from diverse backgrounds
Key Reporters [email protected] 8
1 and hail from virtually every area in the
2 Commonwealth.
3 In March of this year, the Federation
4 held its annual spring convention in Lewisburg,
5 Pennsylvania. Delegates and officers of the
6 organization gathered to discuss a wide variety of
7 issues concerning hunting, fishing, trapping and
8 other conservation-related topics. Part of the
9 annual convention process is to address and vote on
10 current matters that affect our members and their
11 outdoor interests.
12 The results of these votes become the
13 Federation's formal position or platform on
14 whatever matter is addressed, whether it's
15 legislation, regulation, or any position related to
16 our outdoor pursuits. Voting is carried out by
17 individual delegates representing member clubs,
18 individual members and other member organizations
19 that have a seat at our table.
20 One of the topics discussed and voted on
21 in March of this year was House Bill 231. After a
22 lengthy discussion, a vote to support House Bill
23 231 was adopted. This is not the first time that
24 Federation of Sportsmen's Club has supported
25 removing the county treasurers from the antlerless
Key Reporters [email protected] 9
1 license issuance process. The Federation has been
2 on report in support of moving this process
3 strictly under the Game Commission since the PAL's
4 system and Wildlife Management Units were first
5 implemented.
6 In general, the Federation views the
7 sole responsibility of the licensing process as
8 that of the Game Commission. As most of us who
9 have hunted in Pennsylvania for years recall that
10 the Commonwealth was once, for purposes of hunting,
11 separated into geographic boundaries by county.
12 Allocation of antlerless licenses was the
13 responsibility of the Game Commission, and
14 distribution of these licenses was the
15 responsibility of the county treasurers.
16 This approach had some logic when the
17 issuance of all licenses had to be hand processed,
18 and the antlerless tags were issued on a
19 county-wide basis. Hunters submitted their
20 requests to the county they wanted to hunt in.
21 When the Game Commission introduced and
22 adopted the wildlife management, or WMU system,
23 hunters were now permitted to hunt for antlerless
24 deer in larger areas not bound by county lines.
25 The county treasurers, however, were still involved
Key Reporters [email protected] 10
1 in the licensing process because of this
2 legislative mandate.
3 Upon introduction of Pennsylvania's
4 Automated Licensing System, or PALS system, Game
5 Commission and the Fish and Boat Commission took
6 huge steps toward modernizing the license-issuing
7 process. And for somebody that's worked in the gun
8 shop for a number of years filling out the old
9 carbon paper and cardboard licenses, this was
10 really a great thing.
11 Even though antlerless deer license
12 allocations had no county boundaries whatsoever,
13 the county treasurers were, and are still,
14 responsible for issuance of these licenses because
15 of the legislative mandate.
16 The current process is antiquated. We
17 believe adoption of House Bill 231 could save the
18 Game Commission time and money. This would relieve
19 the county treasurers of the burden of the
20 antlerless license issuance.
21 We've heard stories of issuing problems
22 with the current process. The Federation, however,
23 believes that housing the entire process under the
24 resource agency using the PAL's system is
25 appropriate and will streamline the process. It
Key Reporters [email protected] 11
1 just makes common sense to us.
2 The Federation views House Bill 231 as a
3 logical and, frankly, past-due change that will
4 improve and fully utilize the capabilities of the
5 computerized point-of-sale licensing system. It's
6 worked well. It's been a useful tool for the
7 agencies, and a convenience for the hunters who
8 should be able to purchase their antlerless license
9 the same way and at the same time they purchase any
10 other license. With today's technology, our
11 question is, what are we waiting for?
12 With the PALS system, county treasurers
13 who still want to issue licenses can continue to do
14 so the same way all authorized license agents
15 operate. This will make the process more efficient
16 and convenient in the long haul.
17 On behalf of the Federation of
18 Sportsmen's Clubs, we hope you will support this
19 legislation and help move it through the
20 legislative process.
21 Thank you for the opportunity to present
22 our views, and I can answer any questions.
23 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: While the
24 members are preparing their questions, we have been
25 joined by Representative Kavulich.
Key Reporters [email protected] 12
1 Any questions? Representative Mullery,
2 prime sponsor of the bill.
3 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Thank you, Mr.
4 Chairman. Thank you, John, for your testimony.
5 I guess my first question is, when you
6 had your annual spring convention, it seems to me,
7 and this is one of the main reasons that I
8 introduced the bill that a logical extension of
9 PALS, and it would a great convenience to hunters.
10 I'm curious as to what, if any, arguments were
11 presented by your members in opposition to
12 supporting my bill?
13 MR. KLINE: I can tell you, right out of
14 the gate, everybody on this committee already knows
15 that Pennsylvania's hunters are a passionate and
16 outspoken bunch. It's rare that the Federation
17 would come before you with a 100 percent vote one
18 way or the other. The vote came out about
19 two-thirds in favor of support of the bill.
20 Opposition was mostly tradition. This
21 is the way it used to be done. We're from
22 Pennsylvania, that sort of thing. But far, the
23 drive to adopt it was convenience. We should only
24 go through buying hunting licenses one time a year.
25 Why do we go through these extra steps? That was
Key Reporters [email protected] 13
1 the predominant feeling.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Did your
3 organization, or did you have any discussions at
4 your annual spring convention as to whether you
5 envision this bill being the issuance of tags as
6 first-come, first-served basis or continuation of
7 the lottery? Was that discussed at all in --
8 MR. KLINE: It was. Our position is to
9 support the bill. The Federation believes it's up
10 to the Game Commission to figure that sort of thing
11 out with the committee's oversight, as always.
12 But, there were two schools of thought.
13 Some folks thought that it should be issued right
14 away. Others believed that it could be -- it could
15 still be an electronic lottery system. For
16 example, the licenses are issued typically in
17 September of a license year. Perhaps, the Game
18 Commission could run an electronic lottery at that
19 time of year and then issue the licenses. Two
20 different ways.
21 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Does the
22 Pennsylvania Federation have any contact,
23 communication, correspondence with other state
24 federations where this type of system has been put
25 into place? Have you received any feedback from
Key Reporters [email protected] 14
1 other states' federations regarding its
2 successfulness?
3 MR. KLINE: We didn't reach out to any
4 specifically for this issue. We have a whole lot
5 of members that hunt in other states. You hear
6 anecdotal stories, they do it this way in this
7 state; they do it this way in that state. But none
8 specific, no.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: I just have one
10 more question about the actual process of voting at
11 your spring convention. Do delegates representing
12 clubs and individuals have their vote count the
13 same? If I show up as a single representative, do
14 I have the same vote as somebody coming as a
15 delegate, let's say on behalf of the Wild Turkey
16 Federation?
17 MR. KLINE: Okay. Individual members
18 are represented at a convention by a member
19 at-large. That's where the -- That person will
20 vote on behalf of individual members. Individual
21 clubs and organizations also have specific votes.
22 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Thank you.
23 I have no further questions, Mr.
24 Chairman.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
Key Reporters [email protected] 15
1 Representative Mullery.
2 Representative Maloney.
3 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Thank you, Mr.
4 Chairman.
5 Thank you, Mr. Kline, for being here.
6 Just a couple clarifications for me and, really,
7 kind of an overview of some of the statements you
8 made here.
9 I know you mentioned the fact that
10 approximately 70,000 women and men who are members,
11 or at least associated one way or another -- And
12 bringing up the point of the convention, there is a
13 part -- Whether you take a position one way or the
14 other on this bill, there is a part of this that
15 would raise a question to me in previous
16 conversations and things that have come up with
17 respect to the sportsmen of the state.
18 I guess when I see that two-thirds of
19 however many those people were, do you have a
20 number of those amounts of people who you could say
21 were totally and completely represented?
22 MR. KLINE: Specific numbers of members,
23 no, sir. I can tell you that at the 2015 spring
24 convention, there were I think a hundred or 101
25 specific votes, so it was 68-32 and one abstention.
Key Reporters [email protected] 16
1 It was two-thirds, but I can't give you exact
2 number of people, no.
3 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: So comparing it
4 to the deer management issue compared to this type
5 of thing, which basically has mostly -- the
6 controversy has mostly to do with doe allocations,
7 the numbers that you're representing here are
8 nothing compared to the full sportsmen picture with
9 the problem with deer management?
10 MR. KLINE: I'm not sure I understand
11 your question.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: So, in other
13 words, the numbers that you are referring to, the
14 people, who you have more or less lotteried in a
15 question, is very small compared to the overall
16 picture of the sportsmen in the state?
17 MR. KLINE: I can tell you that what I
18 just relayed to you, it was specific to this bill.
19 We didn't talk --
20 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: You brought up
21 all the other different things that you may or may
22 not have brought up in your convention.
23 MR. KLINE: Right.
24 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: You're
25 isolating one issue?
Key Reporters [email protected] 17
1 MR. KLINE: Correct.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Okay. All
3 right.
4 I would say that there is -- Again,
5 whether you support this bill or not, I'm not
6 taking that position. I'm just trying to give an
7 overall view of the conflict.
8 You know, there are many sportsmen to
9 your argument that would rather go back to the
10 by-county allocation. We continuously see an issue
11 with how those doe allocations take place across
12 the state, and they were better managed by county.
13 And whether or not we hear this later today or not,
14 I will be very blunt and say that the inside
15 politics of this in the beginning was to remove the
16 county commissioners out of this -- out of this
17 equation. So that was the intent from the
18 beginning when you find out the internal politics
19 through the Game Commission and the deer
20 allocation.
21 So I think it's somewhat of a mixed
22 message to say that through the Wildlife Management
23 Units and the fact that we moved away from county
24 that there wouldn't be a reason to do this. So, I
25 just want to make that clear, especially some of
Key Reporters [email protected] 18
1 the members here that may or may not realize that,
2 and many of them asked me to clarify some of those
3 things. So, thanks again.
4 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
6 Representative Maloney.
7 Any other members with questions?
8 (No response).
9 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Seeing
10 none, Mr. Kline, thank you so much for your
11 testimony.
12 Okay. With that, we now have Craig
13 Ebersole, Treasure of County of Lancaster and
14 spokesperson for the County Treasurer's Association
15 of Pennsylvania. Mr. Ebersole, whenever you're
16 ready.
17 MR. EBERSOLE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 Good morning.
19 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: I'm sorry,
20 Mr. Ebersole. Before you begin, we have been
21 joined by Representative Gabler. I'm sorry, sir.
22 Go ahead.
23 MR. EBERSOLE: No problem.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: And
25 Representative Everett is walking in as we speak.
Key Reporters [email protected] 19
1 Go ahead, Mr. Ebersole.
2 MR. EBERSOLE: Mr. Chairman, and
3 honorable committee members: Thank you for the
4 opportunity to present testimony at today's hearing
5 on House Bill 231.
6 My name is Craig Ebersole. I'm the
7 Treasurer of Lancaster County. I'm a past
8 president of County Treasurer's Association of
9 Pennsylvania, and I currently chair what we call
10 the Antlerless Deer Committee within the state
11 association. My remarks are as the spokesperson
12 for the state association.
13 On most occasions, I favor legislation
14 that is brief--this is a one-page bill--brief as
15 opposed to lengthy or convoluted. But in the case
16 of House Bill 231, its brevity, its lack of
17 implementation methodology, and the carte blanche
18 mentality are the most worrisome components.
19 House Bill 231 specifically mentions
20 using Pennsylvania Automated Licensing System known
21 as PALS. County treasurers across the great
22 Commonwealth have been using the PALS system as
23 mandated by the PGC for many years, and we've
24 watched it crash virtually every year.
25 The co-sponsorship memorandum that
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1 circulated prior to the introduction of House Bill
2 231 said in part, quote, in light of the recent
3 updates to the Pennsylvania Automated Licensing
4 System, close quote. Well, I hope there have been
5 updates, and I hope the updates are better than the
6 updates to the PALS system that we've been promised
7 over the last five years.
8 Last October the 23rd, the County
9 Treasurer's Association held a annual one-day -- or
10 semi-annual, rather, one-day workshop in State
11 College where we heard from the Fish and Boat
12 Commission, the Bureau of Dog Law, the Department
13 of Revenue, as it applies to small games of chance,
14 and the Pennsylvania Game Commission.
15 Speaking on behalf of the PGC was Mr.
16 Anthony Frascella, chief from the Hunting License
17 Division. As part of his presentation, he was
18 candid and he did mention that House Bill 2493,
19 which was last session's version of this bill, and
20 he mentioned that the PGC supported the bill.
21 We inquired of him as to the
22 distribution methodology of antlerless deer permits
23 if the legislation were to be adopted, and county
24 treasurers cut out of the process. Mr. Frascella's
25 answer was that nothing was in concrete and that
Key Reporters [email protected] 21
1 they, the PGC, were, quote, bouncing several ideas
2 around, close quote.
3 After the meeting I contacted the PGC
4 and offered to meet with them and work on a
5 solution. Rather than a continuation of them
6 supporting a bill that throws us under the bus and
7 we opposing, becoming part of the road surface, no
8 one returned my call.
9 Only a few weeks ago, April 9th to be
10 specific, Mr. Frascella again attended our
11 springtime one-day workshop in State College. This
12 time he told us about House Bill 231 and that the
13 PGC supported the bill. When asked once again
14 about the distribution methodology and how it would
15 benefit the hunter, the answer was, quote, we're
16 bouncing a few ideas around, close quote. Nothing
17 was certain because they would not know exactly
18 what they would need to do until the bill was
19 passed and they had a chance to read it. Where we
20 heard this before may be in a different capital.
21 I hope that they have a plan. I hope
22 that what he told us was that they were only
23 bouncing ideas around was not an accurate
24 statement. I hope that they simply have a plan
25 that they did not wish to share their plan with us
Key Reporters [email protected] 22
1 at that time. I sincerely hope that the plan will
2 benefit the hunters of the Commonwealth and not
3 penalize our counties of $750,000 in annual revenue
4 to the benefit of a large company in Arkansas.
5 If the plan is for on-line sales, I
6 guess the question would be, could that possibly
7 discriminate against the elderly, the poor and the
8 Plain communities in Lancaster county and the many
9 of the other agricultural areas of the
10 Commonwealth.
11 So, what is the future? Well, the
12 future, is it always going to include 750,000 pink
13 envelopes? Probably not. Should the future
14 represent what is best for the hunter? Absolutely
15 yes. Have there been some snafus? Yes. Mostly in
16 home rule counties who have a system that fails to
17 recognize hunters as constituents.
18 Let me ask you this. Do your field
19 offices get letters and phone calls every single
20 week on some sort of issue between a constituent
21 and PennDOT? Probably. Do you put bills in the
22 hopper to take PennDOT out of the equation?
23 Probably not.
24 In House Bill 231, the Pennsylvania Game
25 Commission says PALS will handle the sales. PALS
Key Reporters [email protected] 23
1 is the solution. Their hope is that you will give
2 them a pass on the details, but the devil will be
3 in those details. Right now it just feels like
4 with this one-page bill they want to wrestle
5 antlerless deer permits away from the county and
6 then develop a plan for step number 2. We have
7 seen this play before.
8 When the Pennsylvania Game Commission
9 changed their in-house regulations a number of
10 years ago and had applicants at that time send all
11 the pink envelopes to the PGC in Harrisburg, who
12 then sorted them by WMU and then mailed them in
13 bundles of a hundred back to county treasurers.
14 That was actually a game plan they used for a
15 period of time, until they realized that the temps
16 they hired could not count to a hundred.
17 We're concerned about the hunter. We're
18 concerned about the details of the distribution
19 methods, and we will once again extend our hand to
20 go the second mile with the PGC; send a small
21 committee to meet with the PGC; share our knowledge
22 and thoughts from decades of selling antlerless
23 deer permits, and seek an efficient, economical
24 solution that works for all parties; but most
25 importantly, our shared constituent, the hunters of
Key Reporters [email protected] 24
1 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
2 Thank you. And I'll gladly take
3 questions.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
5 Mr. Ebersole.
6 Questions from the members?
7 Representative Mullery.
8 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Thank you, Mr.
9 Chairman.
10 Thank you, Mr. Ebersole, for being here
11 today and providing your testimony.
12 Since Pennsylvania is the only state in
13 the nation that uses the distribution system we now
14 have in place, do you think we're the only state
15 that's doing it right, and everyone else is doing
16 it wrong? Or is there something we can learn from
17 every other state that's using a computerized
18 system right now?
19 MR. EBERSOLE: As I said in my remarks,
20 I do not believe the 750,000 pink envelopes is the
21 answer going forward. Do I think this is the
22 answer? No.
23 Do I believe that between the knowledge
24 of the sportsmen who are here, hunter groups, the
25 PGC and the county treasurers who have done this
Key Reporters [email protected] 25
1 for decades and decades that a better solution can
2 be found? Yes.
3 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: I listened
4 intently when you talked about big box stores, and
5 from your testimony I can only conclude that you're
6 talking about one, and that's Walmart in an effort
7 to scare people away from the bill.
8 You do understand that there are 750
9 licensing agencies in the Commonwealth, correct,
10 and they are not all big box stores? A lot of them
11 are small mom-and-pop family-owned businesses that
12 sell ammunition, rifles, hunting supplies and
13 things of that nature?
14 MR. EBERSOLE: I don't believe there's
15 anyone else in the Commonwealth that comes close to
16 selling the number of hunting licenses that Walmart
17 sells.
18 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: But you do
19 understand that there are 750 license-issuing
20 agencies in the Commonwealth, correct?
21 MR. EBERSOLE: I understand there are
22 many. Again, I'll -- I'll defer to the executive
23 director, but I will wager that hundreds and
24 hundreds of those moms and pops can go together
25 before you come close to Walmart.
Key Reporters [email protected] 26
1 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: And you also
2 understand that those 750 licensing agents are the
3 same stores that sell hunting equipment are tied
4 directly to the sport of hunting and to hunters?
5 You understand that, correct?
6 MR. EBERSOLE: No.
7 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: So you don't
8 believe that the licensing agents that sell hunting
9 licenses right now through the PALS system to every
10 hunter in Pennsylvania, including those that come
11 to Pennsylvania from out of state, also sell them
12 hunting supplies? You don't believe that?
13 MR. EBERSOLE: Currently, all the county
14 treasurers in the Commonwealth sell hunting
15 licenses; regular season hunting licenses. I have
16 yet to sell an orange vest.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: I'm talking
18 about the stores you referenced in your testimony.
19 MR. EBERSOLE: We're one of the -- We're
20 67 of the 750. We're like 8 percent.
21 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: The remaining
22 693, would you agree that those are dedicated
23 outlets to serve hunters in a full-service
24 capacity?
25 MR. EBERSOLE: I don't know, but I'll
Key Reporters [email protected] 27
1 accept that as fact.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Can you see,
3 then, why that connection and the fact that these
4 stores already sell other available hunting
5 licenses, that common sense points them being the
6 logical source for antlerless deer tags?
7 MR. EBERSOLE: If there were regulations
8 promulgated within this bill or even spoke to
9 regulations being promulgated, I would be more
10 comfortable that that's what would happen.
11 Looking at this one-page bill, I have no
12 idea what will happen other than PALS. PALS is the
13 answer. We have PALS software, let us go.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: When you
15 referenced the, what you describe as a penalty of
16 losing $750,000 to county budgets, do you believe
17 it's the hunter's job to, at least in part, support
18 our county treasurers?
19 MR. EBERSOLE: No. But I was curious as
20 to why a bill of this nature wouldn't be referred
21 to some sort of a fiscal impact committee.
22 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: When you had
23 your meeting on October 23rd, was there any
24 discussion with your fellow treasurers as to how
25 many of their offices view the sale and issuance of
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1 antlerless tags as a positive revenue generator and
2 how many of them view it as revenue neutral?
3 Because I know, at least in northeastern
4 Pennsylvania, there are several county treasurers'
5 offices who use that fee to simply bring in a
6 political appointee to handle the sales while
7 they're going on, so there's absolutely no revenue
8 generated from the process.
9 Was there any discussion of that at your
10 October 23rd meeting?
11 MR. EBERSOLE: I'll assure you there was
12 no discussion about bringing in political whatevers
13 to utilize the fees or process them for them. We
14 had a frank and open discussion on what we see
15 going forward and what we believe this should be.
16 The revenue part, there were a number of
17 county treasurers who told me to -- and I'll share
18 with you now, that if -- if this component is taken
19 from them, they won't be selling regular hunting
20 licenses simply because -- Well, the Centre County
21 Treasurer, $11,000 from this from regular licenses,
22 600 bucks, is he going to maintain a PALS system
23 terminal, et cetera, et cetera, for $600 a year?
24 No.
25 So there was discussion on the revenue,
Key Reporters [email protected] 29
1 yes, sir.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: I understand
3 why it wouldn't be openly discussed about political
4 favored, jobs and things of that nature. But in
5 your position as past president of the association
6 and current chair of the Antlerless Deer Committee,
7 is this something you know that happens across the
8 Commonwealth?
9 MR. EBERSOLE: Is -- Is what something?
10 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Where county
11 treasurers take the income generated from -- the
12 revenue generated from the process of issuing
13 antlerless deer tags and simply redirect that
14 revenue into a political appointee for a period of
15 time?
16 MR. EBERSOLE: Not at all.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: You're totally
18 unfamiliar with that?
19 MR. EBERSOLE: I will tell you that I've
20 been treasurer for 12 years. I've been in the
21 County Treasurer's Association every one of those
22 years. The treasurer of Indiana County, Sandy --
23 Sandy Kirkland, has been there for many, many, more
24 years than I have, I knew her for 10 years before I
25 knew she was a Democrat.
Key Reporters [email protected] 30
1 We have no caucuses at the County
2 Treasurer's Association; no Republican caucus, no
3 Democratic caucus. Money is green. Money knows no
4 party.
5 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: I respect your
6 opinion that you believe this will result in a
7 potential loss of revenue to some counties. I
8 don't necessarily agree with your figure. Is that
9 750,000 a gross figure?
10 MR. EBERSOLE: It's approximately
11 750,000 antlerless permits issued a year.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Okay.
13 MR. EBERSOLE: And (inaudible word) we
14 get a buck a doe.
15 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: But in addition
16 to what they cost and how many are issued, isn't it
17 true that many county treasurers have to spend
18 money to sell those licenses, whether it's on
19 additional staff, overtime, et cetera? So there
20 are costs associated with the county, so it's not a
21 gross loss of $750,000, correct?
22 MR. EBERSOLE: No. Again, I know county
23 treasurers who go to the Office of Aging, and there
24 are senior citizens, particularly senior hunters,
25 who can't wait to raise their hand and come in and
Key Reporters [email protected] 31
1 volunteer just to open envelopes or what have you.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: So it's your
3 opinion that the counties realize every single
4 dollar that is generated from the antlerless tags,
5 and there's absolutely no costs associated with
6 running the program through each of the 67
7 counties?
8 MR. EBERSOLE: First I would tell you I
9 do not know how Philadelphia County handles it or
10 doesn't handle it. I don't know anything about
11 Philadelphia County.
12 The other counties handle it however the
13 elected officials sees fit that that is the most
14 economical and efficient for the constituents.
15 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: So the answer
16 to my question is, you have no idea what the number
17 -- what the potential revenue impact is for the 67
18 counties?
19 MR. EBERSOLE: Can I quantify it sitting
20 here? No.
21 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: I have no
22 further questions, Mr. Chairman.
23 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
24 Representative Mullery.
25 We have been joined by Reverend Farina,
Key Reporters [email protected] 32
1 Emrick and Heffley. Next up is Vice Chairman Moul.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Thank you, Mr.
3 Chairman.
4 If I wanted -- If I lived in the
5 northwest or northeast and I wanted to get a doe
6 license in your county, how would I go about doing
7 that without traveling to your county?
8 MR. EBERSOLE: Through the mail.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Where would I get
10 the application for your county? From a vendor out
11 in my neck of the woods?
12 MR. EBERSOLE: The application comes
13 with your hunting license.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Okay.
15 MR. EBERSOLE: And it is not county
16 specific.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: And when would I
18 know that I actually received a doe permit from
19 your county? Would that be down the road
20 somewhere? Is there a specific date that you open
21 up the envelopes? Is it luck of the draw? How do
22 you determine who gets those licenses and when?
23 MR. EBERSOLE: There is an absolute
24 specific date before we'll even accept them. If
25 you send it in early, it will be returned because
Key Reporters [email protected] 33
1 that's the regulations and we will follow them.
2 It's a Monday and -- I'm lucky the post
3 office is next door. We go over to the post office
4 and come back with, admittedly, a couple of trays
5 and we start processing.
6 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: And how do you --
7 If you receive more applications than you have
8 permits allocated, how do you determine who gets
9 the doe license?
10 MR. EBERSOLE: The WMU allocations are
11 set by the Game Commission.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Correct.
13 MR. EBERSOLE: And as we're entering, we
14 can see on-line how many allocations are left for a
15 given WMU, and it was -- It was a number of days
16 this year, and I don't remember the exact number.
17 There was a number of days before the first WMU
18 sold out.
19 Our WMU in Lancaster County is 5B.
20 There's a very large allocation for 5B. It didn't
21 sell out for a month, month and a half.
22 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Okay. Let's just
23 play devil's advocate for a moment. Let's say in
24 those trays of a few thousand envelopes that you
25 receive, you find out that you only have a thousand
Key Reporters [email protected] 34
1 that you can -- that you're allocated to give out.
2 You're going to run out because you've got 2,000
3 applications. How do you determine which thousand
4 gets the license and which thousand does not?
5 MR. EBERSOLE: We don't sort them by
6 WMU. You can live anywhere --
7 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Correct.
8 MR. EBERSOLE: -- send your application
9 anywhere to hunt anywhere.
10 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Correct.
11 MR. EBERSOLE: So you can live in Adams
12 County, send it to Perry County to hunt in
13 Lancaster County. That's up to you; wherever you
14 think you want to send it.
15 But the number of allocations left are
16 by WMU. I don't know what the WMUs, the thousand
17 stack is asking for. I don't know that it's going
18 to run out because -- Just because they send it to
19 me doesn't mean they want 5B.
20 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: But you issue the
21 license, correct?
22 MR. EBERSOLE: For anywhere in the
23 Commonwealth.
24 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: For anywhere in
25 the Commonwealth?
Key Reporters [email protected] 35
1 MR. EBERSOLE: Anywhere.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Well, if one is
3 sold out, how do you know you can issue that
4 license?
5 MR. EBERSOLE: When it is sold out?
6 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: The WMU is sold
7 out. Let's say 5-O is sold out.
8 MR. EBERSOLE: The WMU that you, the
9 hunter, is seeking?
10 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Yes. How do you
11 know -- If I'm seeking that and you've got it in
12 your hand, how do you know whether to give me that
13 license or not? You can see that on-line?
14 MR. EBERSOLE: Yes, sir.
15 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Well, wouldn't it
16 make sense, if you could see that instantaneously
17 as to hunter which WMU user is sold out so you know
18 whether to apply for that one or not to apply for
19 that one?
20 MR. EBERSOLE: If you're waiting the
21 first month, yes. If you're -- I believe that the
22 hunter -- If this goes live at 12:01 in the
23 morning, I believe hunters will set their alarm
24 clock.
25 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: They might. But
Key Reporters [email protected] 36
1 my concern is, they send you an envelope to hunt in
2 5A, and they're sitting there waiting and find out
3 later on, oops, 5A's sold out. They really should
4 have applied for Garth's District 4. Darn. Wish I
5 would have applied for that.
6 Had they gone to a PALS system, they
7 would have known instantaneously, correct?
8 MR. EBERSOLE: I don't know.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Am I correct about
10 that?
11 MR. EBERSOLE: I haven't seen how this
12 is gonna be handled.
13 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: So, I would
14 certainly --
15 MR. EBERSOLE: But you went, darn, I
16 should have applied for 4A. On that envelope you
17 put your first, second and third choices.
18 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Okay. I just see
19 it as a more modern up-to-date. I can know right
20 now what's available wherever.
21 I don't want to take too much time here,
22 but the other question is, if they wrote -- if
23 Representative Mullery wrote into his bill that the
24 county would get a dollar for every person that
25 applied for a doe permit from that county so that
Key Reporters [email protected] 37
1 counties wouldn't lose a dollar, would you still be
2 opposed to the bill?
3 MR. EBERSOLE: I would be opposed to not
4 knowing how we've improved -- I mean, I don't want
5 to be bought off and the hunter suffers. The
6 hunter is our shared constituent. We believe that
7 we have ideas to share with the PGC. We've reached
8 out to them.
9 A few years ago, you will recall that
10 the Bureau of Dog Law was in disarray. I was
11 selling 36,000 dog licenses a year in Lancaster
12 County. This year I'll sell a thousand a week.
13 I'll sell 52,000, because we met with the Bureau of
14 Dog Law. We had a real give-and-take, a sit-down,
15 and we came up with solutions that didn't involve
16 legislation.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Okay. So it's
18 just not about money. It's you want to be involved
19 in the process. Okay. Fair enough.
20 MR. EBERSOLE: I want to be involved in
21 improved process.
22 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Thank you. Fair
23 enough.
24 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
Key Reporters [email protected] 38
1 Vice Chairman.
2 Representative Peifer.
3 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: Thank you, Mr.
4 Chairman.
5 I just want to make a comment. The
6 maker of the bill--And I don't know where he was
7 going with this--but he mentioned the northeast.
8 You know, I've tried to sit here and listen to
9 this, and I'm trying to work together with the Game
10 Commission, obviously, with the maker of the bill.
11 But when he says the people in the northeast hire
12 political appointees and have political favors to
13 hire people, I personally have no idea what he's
14 talking about.
15 Now, if he has an issue within his own
16 county where there is an issue and a problem and
17 there are political appointees and political favors
18 being done, I wish he would just address that
19 county specifically and keep Pike and Wayne out of
20 it, because we have nothing to do with what he's
21 talking about.
22 Everyone's here looking at me like we're
23 doing something wrong. I know nothing being -- as
24 far as -- As far as the organizational structure,
25 as far as the way cash flow occurs, I know nothing
Key Reporters [email protected] 39
1 that is being done wrong in my two counties.
2 And my second point is, as far as costs,
3 a treasurer does not make overtime. So a treasurer
4 is not sitting there late at night doing -- They're
5 not getting paid for overtime. Deputy treasurers
6 are considered management. They do not collect
7 overtime.
8 So, I'm sure there's some additional
9 costs maybe for additional staff somewhere along
10 the line. But, I can tell you that most of the
11 revenue that was generated from these doe licenses
12 stayed in the county where -- where they were
13 issued.
14 So, if the gentleman wants to make
15 comment specifically about arranging, I'd just like
16 him to make that a tighter area so my constituents
17 who are working very hard and they're very proud of
18 the jobs that they perform aren't being painted by
19 that brush, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
21 Representative Peifer.
22 Representative Maloney.
23 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Thank you, Mr.
24 Chairman.
25 Sir, I appreciate your testimony being
Key Reporters [email protected] 40
1 here today. Couple things I think is pretty
2 interesting about the questioning and the process.
3 Would you say that this all changed and
4 we are here having this discussion because Wildlife
5 Management Units were changed from county to a
6 different geographic area?
7 MR. EBERSOLE: It was impactful.
8 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: It was
9 impactful. So it had something to do with it. I
10 know that somewhat of a -- allude to my next
11 question.
12 I think -- I think when we see
13 efficiency and convenience -- Again, I'm not
14 hopefully just speaking for my geographical area,
15 but for the sportsmen across Pennsylvania. It
16 would seem to me the convenience and efficiency is
17 something that we should strive for.
18 So, would you see any problem with using
19 the PALS system if you were in a county doe
20 allocation process; for instance, going back to the
21 county-by-county doe allocation, but use the PALS
22 system to initiate it? Would that be a possibility
23 to you?
24 MR. EBERSOLE: It would be a
25 possibility.
Key Reporters [email protected] 41
1 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Okay.
2 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
4 Representative Maloney.
5 Any other members? Representative
6 English.
7 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: Thank you, Mr.
8 Chair.
9 I know the system's outdated, but let me
10 just understand. On that special magic Monday
11 morning, I need to get it in the mail, and then I
12 get it to whatever county, and I can pick and
13 choose, and I put my first, second and third
14 preference. And I hope if it goes to your county,
15 you're going to entering it into --
16 How are you entering it? Is it like the
17 PALS system that you're entering it from your
18 county? That's the part I don't know what you do.
19 MR. EBERSOLE: Yes.
20 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: You get the
21 tray from the post office. Okay. So you're
22 entering it and your staff, right?
23 MR. EBERSOLE: Yes.
24 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: So it's a
25 little bit of roll the dice, which stack you get
Key Reporters [email protected] 42
1 and how you process them. What I understand is
2 you're seeing --
3 MR. EBERSOLE: Yes.
4 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: There's an
5 allotment and you're seeing commuter-wise it's
6 going down and --
7 MR. EBERSOLE: Everyone -- Last year
8 everyone who sent to my county the first week got
9 their first choice.
10 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: That's fine. I
11 mail mine to Cambria County. That was my Marine
12 Corps Reserve Unit. I put my little Marine Corps
13 sticker on there because I hope there's some Marine
14 in the post office that's going to pull mine when
15 it gets real narrow, they're going to pull mine
16 ahead of someone else's. That's where I keep my
17 fingers crossed and it's worked. I think only one
18 year I've missed out and got my second choice. So
19 thanks everybody in Cambria County that does that.
20 I guess I'm just looking for how -- And
21 it will be for the executive director coming up.
22 What's going to happen with the proposed bill? Are
23 we going to have the 750 point of sales? Now I
24 have to go and get in line and wait to get -- to
25 see if it can be computer generated so that I know
Key Reporters [email protected] 43
1 instantly that I got my particular area? I'm
2 trying to see -- I'm just trying to understand the
3 mechanics and where the difference is if all the
4 county treasurers are processing them versus the
5 point of sales. That's more of a statement, I
6 guess, than a question.
7 I'm conflicted here. How is it going to
8 improve with this bill? I'm looking for
9 improvement because, you do worry when you have to
10 get the right color and the stamp and the return
11 stamp and, yes, there's 98 cents. It just seems
12 like a pain to do, but it is kind of a system.
13 I really don't -- I'm not sure I want to
14 get in line and have to run up to my store and
15 stand in line behind, you know, a hundred other
16 people, because that's what happens on the Sunday
17 before you have to mail them in when I go, oh,
18 yikes, I've got to get my booklet to be able to get
19 in the mail for Monday morning. That's exactly
20 what happens.
21 How is this going to be any different?
22 MR. EBERSOLE: And that's one of our
23 questions. And again, we've -- We'd like to have
24 dialogue with PGC. But, will it be all on-line;
25 you can do it from your home at oh dot 30. I don't
Key Reporters [email protected] 44
1 know. Or will you have to physically go somewhere?
2 You're talking about the 98 cents in stamps. You
3 can't start your car and leave the driveway for 98
4 cents, so, you know, put it in mail.
5 But we're -- We've been down the road;
6 not with this executive director, and so part of me
7 doesn't -- I take no joy in accusing them of things
8 that didn't occur under his watch. But, I just --
9 April the 9th, or whatever it was, when I asked how
10 will this work, the answer was, we'll have to wait
11 until it's passed to see what it looks like. We're
12 bouncing ideas around. I'm like, no, you can't
13 support a bill that you don't know how it's going
14 to work. You can't do that.
15 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: Well, thank
16 you. I appreciate your information today.
17 MR. EBERSOLE: Thank you.
18 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE:
19 Representative Mullery, you have a follow-up
20 question?
21 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Thank you, Mr.
22 Chairman. Just two comments.
23 First in response to Representative
24 Peifer, I don't think I referenced the northeast
25 when I made those comments. I simply asked Mr.
Key Reporters [email protected] 45
1 Ebersole if he had heard in his past lives as
2 either the past president or the County Treasurer's
3 Association or the current chair of the Antlerless
4 Deer Committee whether or not that was an issue
5 across the state.
6 The reason I brought it up at this
7 hearing is because I was approached by three
8 members of the State House who came to me and told
9 me why they couldn't support the bill is because
10 they were contacted by their state treasurers and
11 told that this is the reason why they didn't want
12 them to support the bill. That's number 1.
13 Number 2, in response to what -- the
14 line of question that Rep. Moul was laying down.
15 He had it exactly right. What this bill seeks to
16 do is eliminate the middle man.
17 So when you go to, whether it's the big
18 box store or your mom-and-pop gun shop, and you buy
19 your buck tag and you say, listen, I'm here at the
20 point of purchase. I want to do one-stop shopping.
21 I want to hunt in 3E. He pulls it up right there.
22 You're not waiting a month for the county treasurer
23 to get the envelope, go into same system and see if
24 it's there. If it's sold out, I want this WMU. If
25 that's sold out, I want this one. But you're
Key Reporters [email protected] 46
1 leaving that store with all your tags.
2 That's why I think the time has come
3 that we need to move this forward; get it to the
4 point where we're in the 21st Century, and start
5 treating our hunters appropriately.
6 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Questions
8 from any of the members?
9 (No response).
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Just one
11 follow-up, if I may, Treasurer Ebersole. If you
12 can maybe give some likeness on how the current
13 system with the pink envelopes and the bins and the
14 process going on for a very long time is better or
15 more convenient for the sportsmen as opposed to a
16 system in which hunters could get their antlerless
17 tags at the same time as they're getting their
18 general license and other tags.
19 MR. EBERSOLE: The last part of your
20 question is yet to be seen. You're assuming a
21 certain methodology there that would occur at the
22 same time. The bill doesn't say that. The bill
23 simply says, here's a software package that we got
24 from a company in Tennessee or Kentucky--I forget
25 where Palace is headquartered--and this is the
Key Reporters [email protected] 47
1 answer. There are no details as to how it will be
2 more convenient.
3 If it weren't for some past history of,
4 you know, the PALS system this year it's going to
5 be sliced bread and it crashes. It crashes the
6 first or the second or third day. The Fish and
7 Boat Commission as of a month ago had not renewed
8 their contract with PALS. They're still looking at
9 it. They still have some questions. Why? And all
10 -- always fixer (phonetic).
11 And I don't know that what you all think
12 will happen will happen because it doesn't say
13 that. All this bill does is wrestle control
14 completely away from the counties, and now the PGC
15 can move forward and -- and do as they see fit
16 under regulations as opposed to coming back to this
17 committee.
18 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: You were
19 here when Mr. Kline testified about the carbon
20 copies and the stuff that we used to do years and
21 years ago filling out a hunting application. Do
22 you agree that that was a rather antiquated system
23 and needed to be updated as a lot of states have
24 done?
25 MR. EBERSOLE: That was a -- Excuse me.
Key Reporters [email protected] 48
1 That was a system where there were lines out the
2 door on the courthouses on the first day, yes, sir.
3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Well,
4 regardless of the lines, just the fact of a hand
5 application versus -- I realize technology is
6 wonderful when it works, and it certainly does have
7 its nuisances. But for the majority, I mean, we're
8 sending rockets into outer space and a lot of great
9 advances in science and technology as a result of
10 the work that we've done.
11 The question is, do you believe that was
12 an antiquated system and needed to be updated?
13 MR. EBERSOLE: Yes, sir.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Mr.
15 Ebersole, thank you so much for your testimony and
16 traveling up here from Lancaster County.
17 With that, we're going to go with Matt
18 Hough, the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania
19 Game Commission, for the final testimony.
20 MR. EBERSOLE: Thank you to the
21 committee.
22 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Mr. Hough,
23 whenever you're ready. And I think you have a
24 couple of guests with you.
25 MR. HOUGH: I do.
Key Reporters [email protected] 49
1 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: I'm going
2 to be stepping out for just a couple minutes to go
3 to a voting meeting. Vice Chairman Moul will be
4 conducting the meeting until I get back. So,
5 whenever you're ready, Mr. Hough.
6 Vice Chairman, it's all yours.
7 ACTING CHAIRMAN MOUL: Thank you.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: I'll be
9 back.
10 MR. HOUGH: Good morning. Thank you,
11 Chairman Gillespie, and members of the House Game
12 and Fisheries Committee. I appreciate the
13 invitation to testify before you today with regards
14 to House Bill 231, which was introduced by
15 Representative Mullery.
16 With me today are Dorothy Derr and Paul
17 Mahon. Dot is the director of the agency's Bureau
18 of Administration, and Paul is the agency's
19 director of automated technology, and are the
20 agency's experts in automated license sales.
21 I would like to state upfront and for
22 the record that the Pennsylvania Game Commission is
23 in full support of this much anticipated and long
24 overdue legislation.
25 Nearly six years ago, in conjunction
Key Reporters [email protected] 50
1 with the Fish and Boat Commission and an outside
2 vendor, the Pennsylvania Automated License System,
3 or PALS, was launched. This system finally allowed
4 the hunters of Pennsylvania the opportunity to
5 purchase their hunting and furtaking licenses and
6 add-on privileges or permits faster, easier and
7 more convenient than in the past. That is, almost
8 all of their add-on permits. As you're well aware
9 and the reason for us being here today,
10 applications for antlerless licenses must be
11 submitted through the county treasurers.
12 With all of today's technological
13 advantages at our fingertips, to say that the
14 process hunters have to go through to purchase
15 their doe license is antiquated would be an
16 understatement. This process remains a point of
17 contention that we hear about every year, as I'm
18 sure you do as well.
19 Have you ever sealed the outer part of
20 you're pink antlerless application envelope and
21 forgotten whether or not you put the postage stamp
22 on the inside? How many times do you check,
23 recheck, and then check again to make sure
24 everything is filled out exactly the way it needs
25 to be? And if you make a mistake like forgetting
Key Reporters [email protected] 51
1 to circle the number of applications contained in
2 the envelope, you find out several weeks later that
3 your application was rejected and returned to you
4 through the postal system.
5 The fact of the matter is, that after
6 all of these years, the current antlerless license
7 system is still confusing to many hunters, with no
8 reason other than, that that is the way it's always
9 been, and hunters are growing tired of this
10 cumbersome process.
11 Make no mistake about it, Pennsylvania
12 hunters want this process to change. They want to
13 be able to purchase their doe tags on-line or over
14 the counter when they visit one of our issuing
15 agents and purchase every other tag and permit. By
16 moving the sale of antlerless licenses to the
17 automated system used by 750 issuing agents, you'll
18 be creating that one-stop shopping experience that
19 hunters have been asking for.
20 This also eliminates the extended
21 waiting game; waiting to find out if you are
22 awarded a doe tag or not; waiting for your check to
23 be processed; and waiting for that doe tag to
24 arrive in the mail. By moving to PALS, you will
25 know if there are antlerless tags available for
Key Reporters [email protected] 52
1 purchase in the Wildlife Management Unit that you
2 are interested in hunting. And if that WMU is sold
3 out, you will know it immediately and receive an
4 antlerless license for your second choice.
5 The idea of having a first-come, first-
6 served system is of great importance to our
7 hunters. Some may argue that the current system
8 with the county treasurers is first come, first
9 served. In actuality, that is simply not the case.
10 And I would agree -- And I would argue that the
11 proposed automated system would, in fact, be much
12 closer to a true first-come, first-served system.
13 Unfortunately, for a number of our
14 hunters over the past few years of sending their
15 antlerless app -- allocations to a county
16 treasurer, only to find out later that that
17 particular treasurer's office decided that they
18 would not process any applications, and without
19 giving any kind of notice beforehand. This left
20 many hunters without the opportunity to apply for
21 the WMU they wanted to hunt, because by the time
22 they realized what had happened, that WMU was
23 already sold out.
24 There have been some that have
25 questioned whether or not the automated license
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1 system can handle the volume of sales that will
2 probably occur on the first day antlerless licenses
3 go on sale. With today's technology, we have no
4 reason to believe it couldn't. Software will be
5 activated that will essentially throttle the
6 transactions, much like the system used today for
7 the sale of concert tickets. This software will
8 put the applicant into a queue that will process
9 their applications in the order in which they are
10 received. This system is currently being used for
11 hunting license sales in Colorado, and it is our
12 understanding that it is working very well.
13 Not all antlerless licenses will be sold
14 on-line. The 750 issuing agents located across the
15 Commonwealth will continue to operate as they
16 currently do, with one exception; they will now be
17 able to issue antlerless licenses over the counter.
18 Keep in mind, this also includes our 65 county
19 treasurers who are also issuing agents.
20 With any new idea or proposal, the
21 question of costs always comes up. What will the
22 impact of this change be to the agency; and even
23 more importantly, what will the impact be to the
24 consumer, the Pennsylvania hunter? In this
25 particular case, there's actually going to be a
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1 savings for both.
2 We have done the research into this, and
3 for the Game Commission we would see significant
4 savings. On just the printing and shipping of the
5 antlerless license application envelopes alone, we
6 would save approximately $109,000.
7 Additionally, hunters who purchase their
8 antlerless licenses over the counter at an issuing
9 agent will save on postage. This may sound
10 trivial, but the proposed change to utilize over-
11 the-counter sales will currently save hunters 98
12 cents per application envelope that they now are
13 required to mail in. However, hunters utilizing
14 the on-line sales process would still be required
15 to pay a postage fee.
16 Today's hunters want this change to take
17 place and have been asking for it for years. We
18 believe the Pennsylvania Automated License System
19 is currently capable of handling it, and it is time
20 to bring the antlerless license process into the
21 21st Century.
22 I would like to thank Representative
23 Mullery for introducing this important piece of
24 legislation, and thank this committee for the
25 opportunity to come in to testify today.
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1 I will be happy to answer any questions
2 you may have.
3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
4 Executive Director Hough.
5 Questions? Representative Mullery.
6 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Thank you,
7 Executive Director.
8 First question is simply this: How long
9 will it take to switch over to the new system? Is
10 this something that if this bill were to proceed
11 through to pass, we can have it in place for next
12 hunting season?
13 MR. HOUGH: We would like this to take
14 place for the 2016 hunting license season.
15 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: With regard to
16 the dollar agent fee, if we were to go to this
17 system and this bill were adopted, who would get
18 that fee?
19 MR. HOUGH: The sporting goods stores
20 that are issuing agents or the county treasurer, if
21 they were an issuing agent, would still collect
22 that dollar fee.
23 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Obviously, you
24 were present for Mr. Ebersole's testimony. How
25 many traditional deer licenses are sold, if you
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1 know, through the 65 county treasurers' offices?
2 MR. HOUGH: I don't know. Dot?
3 MS. DERR: General licenses?
4 MR. HOUGH: General licenses. Do you
5 know, Dot?
6 MS. DERR: From the county treasurers,
7 no, I do not.
8 MR. HOUGH: Don't have that information.
9 We can get that for you.
10 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: I would
11 appreciate that.
12 Do you know which WMUs sell out of tags
13 in the first round? Do you have that data
14 available?
15 MR. HOUGH: Yes. It's usually 2G and
16 2H.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Two WMUs?
18 MR. HOUGH: Correct.
19 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Okay. So would
20 those few areas, am I right in my thought, that
21 standing in line to get an antlerless tag for the
22 vast majority of WMUs will not be needed?
23 MR. HOUGH: We anticipate there will be
24 some standing in line. And if I was a sporting
25 goods store, I would take advantage of that. I
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1 think that would add to the overall experience, you
2 know, of coming in there and hunters purchasing the
3 other items that are available in a sporting goods
4 store.
5 REPRESENTATIVE MULLERY: Thank you, Mr.
6 Chairman. I have no additional questions.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
8 Representative Mullery.
9 Representative Moul.
10 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Thank you, Mr.
11 Chairman.
12 Matt. Thank you, guys. Appreciate you
13 being here. Good to see a fellow Adams countian
14 here today.
15 MR. HOUGH: Thank you.
16 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Have you ever done
17 a survey among the hunters to see if this system is
18 what they want as opposed to mailing in? I mean,
19 just so I can put that thought to bed that, for
20 sure, this is what the hunters want?
21 MR. HOUGH: I don't believe we've ever
22 done a survey on antlerless licenses. We have done
23 surveys on the overall license process, which you
24 can purchase on-line at an issuing agent, and they
25 have -- they have preferred that system compared to
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1 the old system.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: If this bill were
3 to be voted into law, assigned into law, how long
4 would it take to actually make the transformation
5 from county treasurers to the PALS system?
6 MR. HOUGH: Well, first thing we would
7 have to do is change the regulations, because in
8 Title 58, which is regulations, as Chairman
9 Ebersole pointed to, those regulations were put in
10 place for the county treasurer system, so we'd have
11 to go back in and change the regulations, which
12 would take two commission meetings to have that,
13 because they have to go through two voting cycles.
14 The actual Game Commission would have to vote twice
15 on that to make sure that those regulations pass.
16 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: You're talking
17 probably the best part of the year out until you
18 get through everything that you need to do and set
19 it up.
20 MR. HOUGH: Which is why we're looking
21 at the 2016 license year. We would be ready to go
22 by then.
23 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: All right. As far
24 as -- Boy, this is probably going to be a touchy
25 area to tiptoe through, so I'll just come right out
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1 and say it.
2 Obviously, as Mr. Ebersole's testimony,
3 the county treasurer is going to lose $750,000
4 because 750,000 doe licenses--I assume that's a
5 good number--were issued. I find it hard to
6 believe that they have no costs in it.
7 So, if they're taking in 750,000, and
8 this question I probably should have asked this
9 gentleman, what's the actual cost when the dust all
10 settles of the labor it takes to produce and mail
11 out? So, what is their net?
12 And out of that, in order to keep the
13 counties whole, because I know we're going to get
14 push-back from all our local commissioners, hey,
15 you're taking money away from us that we need to
16 run our county and we don't want to raise taxes,
17 so -- Is there some medium ground that the Game
18 Commission, at least for a while, could work with
19 the counties to make sure we don't just snap the
20 plug completely?
21 MR. HOUGH: Well, keep in mind that
22 county treasurers can still be an issuing agent.
23 They can still sell antlerless licenses over the
24 counter, so -- they can still --
25 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: They can. But you
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1 know as well as I do --
2 MR. HOUGH: Right.
3 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: -- when I'm in a
4 sporting goods store -- Like he said, he never sold
5 one orange vest in his life. When I'm in the
6 sporting goods store, why would I not buy it right
7 there.
8 MR. HOUGH: The other thing I think you
9 have to realize is, the average amount that a
10 county treasurer takes in is $11,500. It ranges
11 from $1,419 in Cameron County to $30,499 in Berks,
12 I believe?
13 MS. DERR: In Bucks.
14 MR. HOUGH: Bucks, excuse me. So the
15 average is $11,000.
16 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Okay. So we're
17 not talking about a large amount of money.
18 MR. HOUGH: Not when it's spread out
19 over 65 counties.
20 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Yeah. I just know
21 the questions and the comments that are going to be
22 coming at us from the County Commissioners
23 Association. You're take money from us. Now how
24 are we going to get it back? Just kind of
25 tiptoeing through those tulips a little bit.
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1 MR. HOUGH: I know Dot can tell you
2 actually how much it cost to lease another
3 terminal, which many county treasurers have to do.
4 Dot, you have that information?
5 MS. DERR: Yes. Many county treasurers
6 have the opportunity to lease additional equipment
7 to get ready for the antlerless process. We had
8 approximately 13 county treasurers that leased
9 additional equipment last year directly from our
10 vendor. The cost of that is approximately $3,600
11 total. It turns out to be about $260 per county
12 treasurer to lease it three months minimum a new
13 station.
14 In addition to that, we have many county
15 treasurers that go out and hire temporary help just
16 for that first or second week. So, of course,
17 that's a savings that they will recognize as well.
18 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: So the average
19 actually comes down a little bit. The counties
20 that don't lease the equipment, do they own their
21 equipment?
22 MS. DERR: No. The equipment is owned
23 and provided free of charge by the vendor. That's
24 all part of our negotiations with our contractor.
25 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Now wait a minute.
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1 You just said some counties lease equipment.
2 MS. DERR: Yes, unless -- The county
3 treasurers -- The 65 county treasurers currently
4 are issued three stations, and they're the only
5 issuing agent that has three stations. All other
6 issuing agents are provided one station. The
7 county treasurers were given that primarily because
8 of the issuing agent -- excuse me, the antlerless
9 process.
10 In addition to that, if they choose to
11 bring on additional help, they have the opportunity
12 to lease an additional station for a cost of $260
13 for a three-month period.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MOUL: Okay. Thank you.
15 Thanks.
16 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
17 Vice Chairman Moul.
18 Representative English.
19 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: Thank you, Mr.
20 Chair.
21 So, can you just again help me
22 understand, where's the -- Is there still not going
23 to be a bottleneck or a rush for that first day for
24 the WMUs that traditionally sell out? Is there not
25 going to be a rush for everyone standing in line
Key Reporters [email protected] 63
1 trying to get those?
2 I think the system will be great, I
3 fully agree with it, for once the immediate rush is
4 over where the WMUs that don't sell out that really
5 seems like a no-brainer, and that would be great.
6 But we just have this challenge of trying to get
7 the areas of your first choice. I don't see it
8 going away. I still see us 25 deep waiting in line
9 at the sportsmen club, or do we go through the luck
10 of the draw at the county treasurer?
11 MR. HOUGH: Actually -- No, I anticipate
12 there will be some waiting in line. But you have
13 to realize, there's two ways that you can purchase
14 your antlerless license through the PALS system.
15 You can go over the counter or you can go on-line.
16 So basically, from your Smartphone, once licenses
17 go on sale, you can go into the website through the
18 outdoor shop and order your hunting license right
19 from your phone. Now, you would have to pay
20 postage in that case, but you could still get your
21 antlerless license.
22 We would hope that people realize they
23 don't have to wait in line and do purchase their
24 license on-line as opposed to going to the counter.
25 But, we know there are some that are definitely
Key Reporters [email protected] 64
1 going to go to the counter, and some for religious
2 beliefs are not going to have any other choice but
3 to go to the counter to purchase that.
4 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: So I can do it
5 from my home computer?
6 MR. HOUGH: Correct.
7 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: I was not aware
8 of that, so thank you.
9 MR. HOUGH: You can do that from your
10 home computer right through the PALS system.
11 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: Then we're back
12 to like the concert ticket analogy.
13 MR. HOUGH: Correct.
14 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: I'm trying to
15 get Neil Diamond or the Rolling Stones.
16 MR. HOUGH: And they're sold out in 20
17 minutes.
18 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: I saw Neil
19 Diamond. It was good. I liked it.
20 MR. HOUGH: I just want to clarify that
21 the county treasurers currently use the PALS system
22 to issue antlerless licenses. So this isn't
23 something that's brand-new. The system can handle
24 the issuance of antlerless licenses. We're going
25 from 65 agents that do that now, the county
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1 treasurers, to 756. So, I mean, that's the
2 difference, basically.
3 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: Can people --
4 Can I sit at home and try to get my 30 friends from
5 my hunting camp, and I sit there and I enter them
6 all at one time?
7 MR. HOUGH: No. You can only order
8 three as a group.
9 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: Okay.
10 MR. HOUGH: Yes, that's the maximum.
11 That's the way the system currently is.
12 REPRESENTATIVE ENGLISH: Okay. All
13 right. Thank you.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
15 Representative English.
16 Representative Peifer.
17 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: Thank you, Mr.
18 Chairman.
19 Thank you for being here today.
20 Has the Game Commission looked at the
21 cash flow of this situation? I mean, the licenses
22 go on sale in July. Everyone runs out in the
23 middle of July and buys a license so they can apply
24 for a doe license, because you need to buy your
25 hunting license first. Is that a concern?
Key Reporters [email protected] 66
1 Because in my mind, similar to
2 Representative English, I see a lot of people
3 November 19th going out there in line to go hunting
4 tomorrow trying to get their doe license then. And
5 that's five months after your cash flow -- or three
6 or four months after your cash flow normally comes
7 in.
8 MR. HOUGH: We do have a -- I mean,
9 license usually go on sale about June 8th is when
10 the regular hunting license begins; you know, when
11 the new cycle starts for hunting license sales.
12 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: So you have a
13 large group of people buying their hunting
14 licenses, their 50, $60 of hunting license then --
15 MR. HOUGH: Correct.
16 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: -- upfront --
17 MR. HOUGH: Correct.
18 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: -- because they
19 need the pink envelopes to be able to apply for
20 their doe licenses in August.
21 MR. HOUGH: July, yes.
22 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: Okay, July.
23 MR. HOUGH: Yes.
24 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: So, now that's
25 all going to happen in November. It's going to
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1 happen the day before hunting season.
2 MR. HOUGH: Antlerless license in most
3 Wildlife Management Units will be gone by then.
4 People are going to have to purchase -- If they
5 want to get an antlerless license, just as they do
6 now, they're going to have to purchase their
7 regular hunting because --
8 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: Okay. So the
9 timing -- The timing -- So the timing of the doe
10 licenses would continue to be the same, so you'd
11 still have to just go on-line or buy them on-line?
12 MR. HOUGH: Correct. It will either be
13 the same or very similar. We could tweak that one
14 way or the other. They go on sale the first Monday
15 in --
16 MS. DERR: Second Monday.
17 MR. HOUGH: Second Monday.
18 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: But then there
19 would also be a second -- If there are eligible
20 licenses left, there would be like a second round.
21 You'd have a regular -- that date structure be the
22 same?
23 MR. HOUGH: Correct.
24 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: How about the
25 cost? Would there be an additional 70 cents
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1 attached to the license for the actual doe license,
2 like we pay for the bear and every --
3 MR. HOUGH: Yes.
4 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: -- license I
5 buy?
6 MR. HOUGH: Yes. I can do that now,
7 though.
8 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: I know. It kind
9 of irks me that I buy a license, and then I buy a
10 bear license for additional 70 cents, an archery
11 license for additional 70 cents, a flintlock
12 license for another 70 cents. I mean, I -- That
13 would now be a tacked-on cost, too; an additional
14 70 cents for the vendor?
15 MR. HOUGH: Yes, which would go to
16 Active, who is our vendor that manages the PALS
17 system.
18 REPRESENTATIVE PEIFER: Thank you.
19 As far as Representative Mullery, he
20 talked a little bit about -- I mean, he phrased his
21 question wrong. I thought he was simply going to
22 apologize. He did say the northeast and he did say
23 political appointees and favors. He rephrased it
24 and said that we do listen to our elected
25 officials. I listen to my elected officials every
Key Reporters [email protected] 69
1 day. I listen to my constituents every day, and I
2 try to make educated decisions that are best for my
3 area, Mr. Chairman.
4 So I just wanted to point that out.
5 Thank you.
6 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
7 Representative Peifer.
8 Representative Heffley.
9 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Thank you, Mr.
10 Chairman. Just a couple questions.
11 In Carbon County, I haven't heard any
12 complaints about the system, and I think our county
13 treasure is doing a fine job. It doesn't mean that
14 we can't look at different things moving forward.
15 What is the average age of hunters that
16 are applying for doe tags? Do you -- I mean, do
17 you have all those figures?
18 MR. HOUGH: I can tell you that the
19 average deer hunter in Pennsylvania is now 50 plus
20 years of age.
21 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: Looking at
22 folks that are 50 plus years of age or folks that
23 are maybe in their 60's or 70's, is there a concern
24 that -- I mean, every year people get their license
25 and they put it in the envelope, and they do fill
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1 out the paperwork correctly and they send it to the
2 county treasurer and they get their doe tags back.
3 People that may not want to go on the
4 computer or may not want to use a different system
5 to get their license, is there a concern that there
6 could be a dropoff in those older hunters, or is
7 this looking at a gain maybe in younger hunters?
8 MR. HOUGH: I think the younger hunters
9 will definitely go on-line and purchase their
10 hunting licenses. But the old hunters can still go
11 and purchase it at the sporting goods store over
12 the count just like they have to purchase their
13 hunting license.
14 So, if they don't -- They can go in when
15 antlerless licenses are on sale, buy their general
16 hunting license, buy their bear license, buy their
17 archery license, and also get their antlerless
18 license at the same time.
19 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: And that would
20 be on a first-come, first-served basis?
21 MR. HOUGH: Correct.
22 REPRESENTATIVE HEFFLEY: I still -- My
23 only concern with that, I think you're going to
24 have lines of people waiting that don't have
25 computers, and I don't see too many 70 years old
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1 waiting in line for an hour or two. I do have some
2 concerns about how that system would work. I guess
3 that's been the sticking point every time this
4 topic has come up, because I know we've looked at
5 it four years ago and sit down and make it fair and
6 equitable, the distribution.
7 My other concern is, if you take the
8 county treasurers out of it, they are the voice of
9 the people that elect them and how that system
10 works. And if there's changes to it, they're going
11 to be responsive to their constituents.
12 The Game Commission is an independent
13 agency who really isn't responsive to anybody. I
14 have people in my district that despise what you've
15 done to the deer herd. I'm not saying it's right
16 or wrong, but they're very distrusting of the Game
17 Commission.
18 We have the county treasurers that are
19 kind of overlooking this process right now to make
20 sure it is fair and equitable. I haven't in my
21 district heard of any complaints of anything that
22 was done incorrectly in the county treasurer's
23 office.
24 So I have great concerns in giving you
25 even more authority. We have very little
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1 accountability as a legislative body over some of
2 the things that you do when they come into
3 classifications for endangered species, which we
4 had many discussions on. We have very little
5 oversight.
6 I do think the county treasurers can
7 apply and be the voice in some regard of the people
8 that they represent because they are accountable,
9 in that, they have to go out and get reelected.
10 So, those are my concerns, but I'd still
11 keep an open mind. But right I'd probably be
12 leaning towards keeping the system the way it is.
13 Thank you.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
15 Representative Heffley.
16 Representative Harkins.
17 REPRESENTATIVE HARKINS: Thank you.
18 Thank you for your testimony this
19 morning. Up in my area, I really don't have any
20 complaints from anyone that voices any strong
21 opinions.
22 However, I would like to say, as the
23 system as a whole, let's make sure that we don't
24 forget the new person coming into the system.
25 Automation is great; but at the same time, let's
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1 not lose the -- lose sight of the person who's just
2 coming into it. Maybe those with younger family
3 members who may have questions with the automation
4 part. Somebody can do it on-line, but they don't
5 have those questions answered in a reasonable time
6 or in a thorough manner for them.
7 With that, that's something I'd like
8 everybody to keep on the -- on the forefront.
9 MR. HOUGH: I would agree. The
10 education process of changing from the decades old
11 system to the new system will be a challenge. We
12 will have to really make an educational effort to
13 get that out to all of our constituents, the
14 hunters.
15 REPRESENTATIVE HARKINS: I think it's
16 often a miscommunication or a breakdown of
17 communication sometimes with fish and game in our
18 area; boating, those are the concerns that come up.
19 MR. HOUGH: Thank you.
20 REPRESENTATIVE HARKINS: It's one thing
21 it's interpreted in a different way. It's not
22 uncommon to be out on a Saturday afternoon and you
23 get pulled over in a boat. The way one person
24 interprets something is different from the way it
25 actually is.
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1 MR. HOUGH: Correct.
2 REPRESENTATIVE HARKINS: It's just those
3 thoughts. Thank you.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: Thank you,
5 Representative Harkins.
6 Any other questions from any of the
7 members.
8 (No response).
9 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: With that,
10 Executive Director Hough, thank you for coming and
11 bringing your colleagues with you and your
12 testimony.
13 MR. HOUGH: Thank you very much.
14 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN GILLESPIE: With that,
15 I'm going to go ahead and adjourn this meeting of
16 the House Game and Fisheries Committee.
17 (At 10:21 a.m., the hearing concluded).
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 I, Karen J. Meister, Reporter, Notary
4 Public, duly commissioned and qualified in and for
5 the County of York, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania,
6 hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and
7 accurate transcript, to the best of my ability, of
8 a public hearing taken from a videotape recording
9 and reduced to computer printout under my
10 supervision.
11 This certification does not apply to any
12 reproduction of the same by any means unless under
13 my direct control and/or supervision.
14
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17 Karen J. Meister Reporter, Notary Public 18
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