International Congresses on Transdisciplinarity: Their Importance for the Emergence of a Transdisciplinary Methodology 4

Basarab Nicolescu International Congresses on Transdisciplinarity: Their Importance for the Emergence of a Transdisciplinary Methodology 4

International Congresses on Transdisciplinarity: Their Importance for the Emergence of a Transdisciplinary Methodology

Basarab Nicolescu, CIRET, Paris (France) and University Babes-Bolyai, Cluj-Napoca, Romania, Email: [email protected]

doi: 10.22545/2011/00021

n this interview, Professor Basarab Nicolescu re- Rumanian poet Ion Barbu, also known for veals important historical aspects on the emergence being a mathematician of international rep- Iof an international community of transdisciplinary utation, named Dan Barbilian, who signed researchers, evaluates the role of different transdisci- his poems using the pseudonym Ion Barbu. plinary meetings during the period 1986-2005, and Q-2 How did you make this trajectory? analyzes the scientific and philosophical basis of the transdisciplinary methodology.1 • In a very natural way, I could even say “in- Keywords: transdisciplinarity, Interview given by nate”. As a student, I had solid knowledge Basarab Nicolescu, logic of the included middle. in philosophy. My interest was concen- trated on Schopenhauer and Hegel. Litera- ture impassioned me, even if mathematics Q-1 When did you begin to be interested in trans- remained the center of my passions. Also, I disciplinary thought? had, very early, from the time I was around • Since my adolescence, even though the six years of age, a well-developed ortho- word transdisciplinarity had not yet been dox Christian education, with a priest who invented. My first book, published in Ro- was one of the greatest Rumanian theolo- mania in 1968, just a few months before my gians – Father Galeriu. He gave me the definitive departure for France–Ion Barbu, taste for apophatic thought (particularly, The Cosmology of the Second Game, Edi- Pseudo-Dionysus, Gregory of Nyssa, and tura pentru Literatura, Bucharest, 1968 - Gregory Palamas), a taste which was de- was devoted to the relations between math- veloped by my practice of quantum physics ematics and poetry in the work of a great and which was a fundamental component of the methodology of transdisciplinarity 1 Interview given by Basarab Nicolescu to Professor Augusta that I worked out after my arrival in France. Thereza de Alvarenga of the Faculty of Public Health, Uni- versity of SãoPaulo, Brazil (Translation from the French Quantum physics was, for me, a place of by Karen-Claire Voss). conciliation between all its apparently con-

Transdisciplinary Journal of Engineering & Science Vol. 2, pp. 4-9, (December, 2011) ISSN: 1949-0569 online Basarab Nicolescu International Congresses on Transdisciplinarity: Their Importance for the Emergence of a Transdisciplinary Methodology 5

tradictory concerns. My major references tion of the methodology of transdisciplinar- in the philosophy of quantum physics and ity is related to the irreducible presence of mathematics were - and still are - Werner the Subject in transdisciplinarity. This is Heisenberg, Wolfgang Pauli, Niels Bohr why it was clear for me that the method- and Kurt Gödel. ology of modern science, founded on the exclusion of the Subject, is not valid in the Q-3 When and how did you propose a trans- field of the transdisciplinarity. The unifi- disciplinary methodology based on three cation between hard (exact) sciences and pillars: that of complexity, that of the soft (human) sciences cannot be accom- various levels of reality, and that of the plished using the methodology of modern logic of the included middle? science. A new methodology was necessary • I did not “propose” it: I worked it out. I and, over the course of a few years, I have formulated the methodology of transdisci- adhered to this formulation. plinarity in a series of articles published in the French review “3rd Millenium” (old se- The first axiom (or “postulate” or “pil- ries), which was included in my first book lar”, according to popular terminology), published in France We, the Particle and that concerning levels of Reality, seemed the World (Nous, la particule et le monde), to me obvious, since 1970, from my own Le Mail, Paris, 1985 (2nd edition: Rocher, practice of quantum physics. But the idea Series “Transdisciplinarity”, Monaco, 2002; did not exist in the extant scientific cor- translation in Portuguese:Nós,a partic- pus and I hesitated to publish it. Fortu- ular e o universo, Coleçcaõ “Cieˆncia e nately, during my post-doctoral training Consceˆncia”, Esquilo, Lisbon, 2005, trans- course at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory lation in Portuguese by Isabel Debot). (1976-1977) I was in contact with Geof- frey Chew, the founder of the bootstrap Q-4 How is this process carried out? theory, and also with Henry Stapp, who • Very slowly. It seemed important to me to both encouraged me to publish it. I fi- formulate a methodology, because in ab- nally articulated the first axiom in an ar- sence of this methodology, transdisciplinar- ticle published in “3rd Millenium”, No 1, ity is only frivolous talk, a momentary fash- Paris, March-April 1982. Much later, in ion. But this methodology should be open, 1998, I learned that Werner Heisenberg not dogmatic. This is why it seemed to me had also proposed a formulation of the crucial that transdisciplinarity is defined concept “level of Reality” (Werner Heisen- via its methodology. A single methodology, berg,Philosophy – the Manuscript of 1942, which is the logos of method, is compatible Paris, Seuil, 1998. Translation from Ger- with a great number of different methods. man and introduction by Catherine Cheval- In other words, transdisciplinarity is based ley. First German edition: Ordnung der on a single methodology, but there can Wirklichkeit, Munich, R. Piper GMBH § be variations of transdisciplinarity. This KG, 1989. Published first in W. Blum, point is not generally understood even to- H. P. Drr, and H. Rechenberg (ED.), W. day; because even educated people confuse Heisenberg, Gesammelte Werke, Vol. C-I: methodology and methods. My approach Physik und Erkenntnis, 1927-1955, Mnich, to thought is built on the example of the R. Piper GMBH § KG, 1984, pp. 218-306). methodology of modern science: the one and only methodology, that formulated by Galileo, Newton and Kepler, that proved The third axiom, that concerning complex- to be compatible with extremely different ity was announced at the same time, in theories, like, for example, traditional me- my book Nous, le particule et le monde. chanics (the two theories of relativity of There are certainly a great many defini- Einstein included) and quantum mechanics. tions of complexity, practically all incom- Another essential difficulty in the formula- patible with the concept of level of Reality.

The only one which is appropriate for trans- ten that the atmosphere in the academic disciplinarity is that of Edgar Morin and milieu of the time was very unfavorable Paul Cilliers. towards transdisciplinarity and it was necessary to proceed with courage but also Paradoxically it is the second axiom, that with prudence. concerning the logic of the included middle, Q-5 What do you think of the proposal that which was the most difficult to formulate. the three pillars considered in the official Of course, I had been working closely with documents of the Congresses are of fun- StéphaneLupasco since 1969. I knew also damental importance for the character- the considerations of Aristotle and, espe- ization of a methodology of transdisci- cially, Hegel, who applied this logic in his plinarity? What are the possibilities and Philosophy of the Spirit. But it was obvi- the challenges that this proposal brings, ous for me that a strictly formal logic was on the one hand, and, on the other hand, unsuited to transdisciplinarity, because it the limits that it presents? is very poor, and is limited to solving theoretical paradoxes. Moreover, the logic of • I have already answered the question the included middle of Lupasco did not concerning the importance of these con- take into account the existence of levels of gresses. One of the limits of transdisci- Reality, but it had the capacity to be a true plinary methodology is that it does not philosophy. This is why I extended and allow us to do science, on the technical generalized the logic of Lupasco by intro- level: the methodology of science is largely ducing the levels of Reality of the Subject enough for that. In this respect, transdisci- and the levels of Reality of the Object. The plinary methodology and scientific method- result was published, with the encourage- ology are complementary. It may be never- ment of Lupasco himself, in Nous, la partic- theless that transdisciplinary methodology ule et le monde. During the last few years, leads to great scientific discoveries, espe- Joseph Brenner showed all the richness of cially in the study of consciousness. such a logic in the study of the processes of The essential limit of transdisciplinary Reality. Through this methodology, trans- methodology is that it does not consti- disciplinarity succeeds in becoming a tour tute a spiritual way in itself. It is here de force that joins together ontology (the where potentially huge deviations of trans- first axiom), logic (the second axiom), and disciplinarity reside. I observe an occultist epistemology (the third axiom). temptation here and there, which is extremely harmful and must be fought by I must affirm in all modesty (since I was transdisciplinary researchers. One should the initiator or organizer of the majority of not forget that even if transdisciplinary congresses) that I played a large role in the methodology is very different from the emergence of an international community methodology of science, it nevertheless has of transdisciplinary researchers, brought the scientific spirit in its center. together around an already extant methodology of transdisciplinarity. In this respect, Q-6 Certain authors like Patrick Paul, of one can certainly speak of a methodological France, and Amâncio Fria¸ca,of Brazil, consolidation. But it is not correct to speak argue the need for introducing a fourth of an “emergence” of methodology during pillar of transdisciplinarity to the three these congresses, because this methodol- already allotted; i.e., the “paradox” ogy existed already. It is true that I chose, (Formation of the Subject and Transdisci- for tactical considerations, to show this plinarity: History of Professional Life and methodology gradually, the apogee being the Imaginal. Paris: Harmattan, 2003, located at the 1st World Congress of Trans- p. 401) and the “vacuum” (O vácuo disciplinarity (1994) and the Congress of e o espa¸cotransdisciplinar in: Educa¸cão Locarno (1997). It should not be forgot- e transdisciplinaridade III. São Paulo:

Triom, 2005, p. 439-451), respectively. • Conference of Venice “Science and the Some others defend the need for non- Boundaries of Knowledge”: preparation centrality in the “logic of the included of the emergence of a community. third” but in various nontraditional log- • Congress “Science and Tradition: Transdis- ics (“Message of Vila Velha/Vitòria”, ciplinary Prospects for the 21st century”: Brazil, of the Second World Congress of preparation of the First World Congress. Transdisciplinarity). What do you think? • It is not necessary to introduce a fourth • First World Congress of Transdisciplinar- axiom if it can be derived starting from the ity: the core of the community is formed. first three. The paradox and the vacuum • International congress of Locarno: “Which are a consequence of the first three axioms. University for Tomorrow?”: participated It is important to keep minimum axioms of educators and students of the member in the methodology of transdisciplinarity: states of UNESCO, in 1997. if it leads to tautologies one obtains as a result of what one puts inside. Of course, • Second World Congress of Transdisciplinar- the number three is neither magic nor sa- ity: With participation from the interna- cred. If it is necessary, one can introduce tional community and a large number of a new axiom but, for the moment, it is not transdisciplinary researchers in Brazil. a necessity. I already answered the ques- Q-9 We affirm, in one article, that one can tion of the “non-centrality” of the logic of think that such Congresses supported the included middle. It is a question of the constitution of what we could des- confusion: the logic of transdisciplinarity, ignate as a “community of transdisci- while including a formal logic is, at the plinary thinkers”, (to employ the ter- same time, a philosophy, the philosophy of minology of Thomas Kuhn) This is be- the included middle. cause we consider that many of those Q-7 Among the congresses on transdisci- who took part in these congresses be- plinarity enumerated below, in which came followers and started to defend have you participated? the idea that this proposal of a transdisciplinary methodology based on three • Conference of Venice “Science and the pillars should be employed, in reflec- Boundaries of Knowledge,” Venice, in 1986 tions on transdisciplinarity, like a basic • Congress “Science and Tradition: Transdis- diagram, or even like a paradigm (also ciplinary Prospects for the 21st Century,” in the design of T. Kuhn), because it Paris, in 199l is formed with the best methodological strategy available. What do you think • First World Congress of Transdisciplinar- of this assumption? ity, Convento da Arrábida,Portugal, in 1994 • I agree completely with this idea of a “com- • International Congress of Transdisciplinar- munity of transdisciplinary thinkers.” But ity “Which University for Tomorrow?”, Lo- I have important reservations concerning carno, in 1997 the word “followers”, with its connotation of the New Age. It is not necessary that • Second World Congress of Transdisciplinar- transdisciplinarity gives rise to any kind of ity, Vitória,Brazil, in 2005. guru. I also have reservations concerning I participated to all of them. the word “paradigm”, which was formulated by Thomas Kuhn in a precise context Q-8 Which is your perception of the impor- - that of science - and should not be used tance of each congress in which you have in other contexts. participated for the emergence of transdisciplinary thought based on the three Q-10 In your opinion, which is the strong pillars? point (or points) of this (these) same

Congress(es) in which you have partici- This congress profited from the participa- pated? tion of very important personalities, like • Conference of Venice “Science and the the Nobel Prize Werner Arber and the Boundaries of Knowledge”: the word great architect Mario Botta. “transdisciplinarity” is mentioned for the • Second World Congress of Transdisciplinar- first time in an institutional document. ity: The document that came out of this • Congress “Science and Tradition: trans- congress was backward compared to the disciplinary prospects for the 21st cen- Charter of Transdisciplinarity. Moreover, tury”: the entry into the transdisciplinary it is too specific to the Brazilian movement movement of the great Argentinean poet and less adapted to the international com- Roberto Juarroz, who in this context also munity. formulated an important expression of the Q-12 In your opinion, what were the im- transdisciplinary terminology: “the trans- portant challenges for the development disciplinary attitude”. and/or deepening of this proposal for • First World Congress of Transdisciplinar- transdisciplinarity, from the point of ity: adoption of the Charter of Transdisci- view of the methodological, epistemo- plinarity which is, today still, the most im- logical and theoretical? portant document of the transdisciplinary movement. The challenges are unforeseeable. And the possible deviations are numerous. • International congress of Locarno “Which University for Tomorrow?”: formulation Q-13 Can you identify some work or author of the recommendations concerning the (man or woman) (yourself including) al- higher education addressed to the Member ready progressing, that it is from the the- States of UNESCO. oretical point of view or the methodolog- • Second World Congress of Transdisciplinar- ical /epistemological point of view, to- ity: demonstration of the vitality of the ward the point of embarking on transdis- transdisciplinary movement in Brazil. ciplinarity? In the affirmative, could you mention the name of the work and its Q-11 And which are the weak point (or points) author (man or woman)? Could you tell of this (these) same Congress(es), in us in what respect you consider that this your view? author was making progress? ((Note: • Conference of Venice “Science and the In case there are many authors (men or Boundaries of Knowledge”: the conference women) make a list of them, one by one, was restricted to a small number of person- below). alities of the cultural and scientific world. • Congress “Science and Tradition: transdis- I do not like the spirit of lists. To see which ciplinary prospects for the 21st century”: are the important personalities it is enough mixed participation due to the double pa- to observe which are the books or the arti- tronage by UNESCO and an association cles most quoted in the transdisciplinary of engineers. literature. • First World Congress of Transdisciplinar- • See the translation of the Charter in ity: no weak point. The organization this nine languages, on the CIRET page congress was ensured in an exceptional way http://basarab.nicolescu.perso.sfr.fr/ciret by the great Portuguese painter Lima de /indexen.html Freitas and profited from the important Q-14 In many published articles, it is usual intellectual contribution of the President that the proposal of this transdisciplinary of Portugal, Mario Soares. methodology, based on three pillars, is • International congress of Locarno “Which considered as a “paradigm”. If one con- University for tomorrow?”: no weak point. siders how the term “paradigm” was

used in the traditional work by Thomas About the Author Kuhn ( Structure of Scientific Revolu- tion), like a kind of “model” in which the problems of investigation are sug- gested by the paradigm and resolved by it, or, accepted as dominant by a given scientific community, whose func- tion is to direct all research in a de- termined field, by furnishing problems and model solutions to a community of Basarab Nicolescu is a theoretical physicist in elemen- practicing scientists, what do you think tary particle physics at CNRS, France and professor of about the nature and heuristic capac- philosophy at the Babes-Bolyai University, Cluj-Napoca, ity of this proposal of “transdisciplinary Romania. He is member of the Romanian Academy and methodology”? This proposal would be president-founder of the International Center for Transdis- (or could be) in fact, a new paradigm, ciplinary Research and Studies (CIRET). Basarab Nico- in the form of Thomas Kuhn, present- lescu is founder and director of the Transdisciplinarity ing itself as a hegemonic approach? Or series, Rocher, Monaco, of the Romanians in Paris series, should it be considered, considering the Oxus, Paris and of the Science and Religion and Science, proper complexity of the topic, like one Spirituality, Society Series, Curtea Veche, Bucharest. His of the possible theoretic-methodologic books include: Manifesto of Transdisciplinarity, State propositions liable to be adopted by its University of New York (SUNY) Press, New York, 2002; followers and to contribute, with the ex- Nous, la particule et le monde, E. M. E. InterCommunica- tant or emerging others, to the study of tions, Brussels, 2012 (3rd edition); Science, Meaning and transdisciplinarity? In the case of under- Evolution - The Cosmology of Jacob Boehme, Parabola standing it as a paradigm for the study Books, New York, 1991. He edited Transdisciplinarity - of transdisciplinarity, what is your con- Theory and Practice, Hampton Press, Cresskill, New Jer- cept of paradigm? sey, 2008. Forthcoming: Science, Culture and Spirituality From Modernity to Cosmodernity, State University of New York (SUNY) Press, New York (to be published). I have already answered this question: in my view, one is not able to speak of a Copyright c 2011 by the author. This is “paradigm” épropos of transdisciplinarity. an open access article distributed under the Creative Commons Attribution License (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/), Q-15 By way of a final point, we would ask which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and whether you consider it important to reproduction in any medium, provided the original add still more comments, in the form of work is properly cited. other questions which you consider important on the theme/subject and which we have not mentioned. If so, what would you add and why?

I thank you for these very intelligent questions.

Transdisciplinary Journal of Engineering & Science Vol. 2, pp. 4-9, (December, 2011) ISSN: 1949-0569 online