Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 17 NOVEMBER 1964

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Supply [14 NovEMBER] Questions 1525

TUESDAY, 17 NOVEMBER, 1964

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m. QUESTIONS TECHNICIAN AND TECHNOLOGIST CLASSI­ FICATIONS.-Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,- Concerning the classifications of technician and technologist,- ( 1 ) What is the description of each classification? (2) How can a youth or adult become fully qualified in each classification? ( 3) What callings or trades will these classifications cover?

Answers:- ( 1) "The term technologist is applied to a person in the field of Applied Science who has completed and satisfied the examination requirements of a course lead­ ing to professional recognition by the relevant institute. Examples are: The Institute of Engineers, Australia; The Royal Australian Institute of Chemists; The Royal Australian Institute of Architects. 1526 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

The term technician is applied to a wide IRRIGATION CHANNELS IN CLARE, MILLAROO range of responsible jobs involving a AND DALBEG AREAS.-Mr. Coburn, pursuant higher level of scientific and technical to notice, asked The Minister for Local knowledge than that needed by a crafts­ Government,- man but below that needed by a tech­ nologist. Examples of work done by ( I ) What is the length of the irrigation technicians include the design of plant and channels provided by the Irrigation and equipment under the direction of a tech­ Water Supply Department in each of the nologist, supervising the erection and con­ three areas, Claredale, Millaroo and struction and maintenance of plant; Dalbeg, since cane assignments were testing, surveying and inspection. There granted to farmers in these areas and what are two categories of technicians: (a) The was the total cost in each area of providing Engineering, Chemical or Laboratory these channels? Technician; (b) The Trade Technician. The former of these is employed as an (2) What will be the total length in each assistant to a technologist; for example of the three areas of the irrigation channels draftsman, engineering surveyor, surv.ey provided since the granting of cane assign­ draftsman, laboratory technician, &c. The ments in the areas, when the work of other group normally progresses from a channelling now in hand is complete, and trade, with or without further formal what is the estimated cost of the work training to become supervisors of trades­ in each area? men. Another type of trade technician is the 'super tradesman' technician such as Answers:- the P.M.G. technician." (!) "Since July 1, 1964, the following length of new irrigation channel has been (2) "Method of Training. A Technolo­ constructed, or is now being constructed, gist undertakes: (a) A university degree in the Clare, Millaroo and Dalbeg sections course; or (b) A college diploma course of the Burdekin River Irrigation Area:­ (of acceptable standard). This course Clare, Nil; Millaroo, 1· 3 miles nearing would be available both as a full-time day completion; 1· 8 miles in progress; Dalbeg, course and a part-time .evening course· or 2 · 7 miles completed. In addition to the (c) By private study and sitting for 'the above new channels a number of new examinations set by the relevant institute. structures hav.e been constructed in exist­ ing channels to serve some of the addi­ An E?~ineering, Chemical or Laboratory tional areas allocated for sugar-cane Techmcian undertakes a certificate course. growing. Total expenditure on these works In some cases this course could be under­ to November 11 last was £35,000." ta~en concurrently with a trade apprentice­ ship course. These certificate courses (2) "The total length of new channels would have entrance requirements at being constructed in the individual sections Junior standard. From 1965 full-time of the Burdekin River Irrigation Area are tec_hnician courses will be a~ailable in as follows :-Clare, 0 · 5 miles; Millaroo, Bnsbane. A Trade Technician would 3·1 miles; Dalbeg, 2·7 miles; Total, 6·3 underta~e a. specialised course or a post miles. The estimated total cost of con­ apprenticeship course. For this category a struction of these channels plus the addi­ tional structures on .existing channels, full trade background is essential." including the amount under ( 1) above is £80,600." (3) "The only callings for trades affected would be those associated with the trade technician category and any trade SALE OF PALLARENDA ALLOTMENTS, could be covered by a post apprenticeship TOWNSVILLE.-Mr. Aikens, pursuant to course designed for that trade." notice, asked The Minister for Lands,- Is it a fact that not all of the allotments available at Pallarenda, Townsville, were BUILDING UNITS TITLES.-Mr. Anderson offered for sale to the public and, if so, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister fo; were certain allotments withheld from sale Justice,- so as to later offer them to the North Queensland Golfing Association as sites In view of the growing tendency to for houses for the caretaker, greenkeepers erect multi-story home units which creates and other employees of the golf links to problems of title, will he give consideration be excised from the adjacent Town to the introduction of Strata Titles in Common? Queensland in order to ensure that the purchaser of such home units will receive Answer:- adequate protection and financial security? "All available residential allotments at Pallarenda, Townsville, have been sold or Answer:- offered for sale with the exception of nine (9) allotments reserved for public "Consideration has been already given servants' housing and one ( 1) for Queens­ to the introduction of a Building Units land Country Women's Association pur­ Titles Bill." poses. There has been no suggestion at Questions [17 NovEMBER] Order in Chamber, &c., Time 1527

any time to withhold from sale any allot­ and local agents. I believe that the ments with a view to offering them to the interests of the grazing industry will be North Queensland Golf Association as fully protected by the known competition sites for houses for the caretakers, green­ between the three firms concerned." keepers and other employees of the Golf Association. The Pallarenda allotments PAPERS are, in fact, about 1:} miles north of the area proposed to be used as golf links." The following papers were laid on the table:- CANCELLATION OF GUARDS' POSITIONS, Orders in Council under- RAILWAY DEPARTMENT.-Mr. Donald for Mr. The Water Acts, 1926 to 1961. Tucker, pursuant to notice, asked The Minis­ ter for Transport,- The River Improvement Trust Acts, ( 1) What was the reason for the can­ 1940 to 1959. cellation of fifteen guards' positions in Regulation under The Radioactive Sub­ Weekly Notice 43/64 and of four in stances Act of 1958. Weekly Notice 44/64 in respect of depots at Cloncurry, Hughenden, Richmond and Sixty-fourth Report of the Bureau of the Townsville-Mount Isa project? Sugar Experiment Stations. (2) When were these positions initially advertised and was his Department then NOTICE OF MOTION of the opinion that there would be sufficient work offering in such depots for those who Mr. W ALSH (Bundaberg) having given would be appointed to them? notice of a motion-- Answer:- Mr. SPEAKER: Is the motion supported? ( I and 2) "When these positions were (Three other hon. members rising in their initially advertised the vacancies existed, places)-- but since then changes have occurred due to the nearing of completion of the Mount Mr. AIKENS: I want to ask Egerton Isa railway project and the cessation of the where he got the £4,000 he said he won at livestock season. The Honourable Member the races. I want him here. I want to know can obtain the dates on which the positions about it. were advertised by reference to various issues of the Railway Weekly Notice." Mr. Mann: He would not answer a scab, anyhow. USE OF CATTLE YARDS, MACKAY ABATTOIR. Mr. AIKENS: In that case he would not -Mr. Donald for Mr. Graham, pursuant to answer you, because you are the biggest scab notice, asked The Minister for Primary in the House. You scabbed on your mates Industries,- in the baccarat school. Further to his Answers to my Questions on August 20 and 27, relative to the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member control of the Mackay Abattoir yards, for Townsville South will withdraw that and as it is apparent that a monopoly has remark. been established in the use of the yards to the exclusion of local agents, will he Mr. AIKENS: I will withdraw it. Will the intervene in order to ensure that local hon. member for Brisbane be required to agents' rights are preserved in the interests withdraw the remark that I am a scab? of the grazing industry? Answer:- Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member for Brisbane, in my opinion, did not refer to "! am not aware that it is apparent that the hon. member for Townsville South in a monopoly has been established in so far such manner. If he did, I will certainly ask as the Mackay saleyards are concerned. As I previously informed the Honourable him to withdraw it. Member three large livestock brokers will operate the saleyards. They will be in Mr. AIKENS: When we read of an M.P. direct competition with each other and being shot, everyone thought it was Johnno. this can hardly be said to create a monopoly. I would also point out that the Mackay District Abattoir Board is only ORDER IN CHAMBER DURING leasing land for the construction of a sale­ QUESTION TIME yards. The yards themselves will be entirely owned and operated by the three Mr. W ALLIS-SMITH (Tablelands) rising firms concerned. They will be known as to give notice of question-- the Mackay Saleyards Association. I do not consider it is necessary or desirable for Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There is far too me to interfere in what is a private matter much talking in the Chamber. It is very between the Mackay Saleyards Association difficult to hear the questions. 1528 Stock Routes and Rural Lands [ASSEMBLY] Protection Acts Amendment Bill

FORM OF QUESTION of members on it, it can be said that the framing of policies associated with control of Mr. THACKERAY (Rockhampton North) the dingo throughout the State, and indeed having given notice of a question-- the controlling of other vermin, the watering Mr. SPEAKER: Order! It is apparent and improvement of stock routes, and the that the hon. member is asking a question control of noxious plants, is effectively in the when he is already aware of the answer. I hands of the landholders themselves. The shall have a good look at his question. Co-ordinating Board operates in close co-operation with local a~thorities ~nd. the various grazing and farmmg orgamsat10ns, LAND ACTS AMENDMENT BILL and confers regularly with representatives of INITIATION these bodies on all matters that come within its jurisdiction. Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ Minister for Lands): I move- In a word, all major recommendations made "That the House will, at its present to me by the Co-ordinating Board either stem sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of from, or have the approval of, representatives the Whole to consider introducing a Bill of the rural industries. Such is the case with to amend the Land Acts, 1962 to 1963, in the proposals enunciated and intended to be certain particulars." carried into effect by the Bill. Motion agreed to. There is no accurate information available to enable an assessment to be made with any degree of accuracy of the losses caused each CITY OF BRISBANE TOWN PLANNING year by the depredation of dingoes. It would. BILL however, be safe to say tha.t the value of INITIATION stock lost from attacks by dmgoes, and the amount expended annually by landholde~s Hon. H. RICHTER (Somerset-Minister and the Co-ordinating Board to control this for Local Government and Conservation): I move- pest, would be at least £1,000,000. I do not think that is an excessive estimate. ' That the House will, at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of Although there is no obligation on the the Whole to consider introducing a Bill Co-ordinating Board to destroy dingoes on relating to the town planning of the City private lands, the Board has. always been of Brisbane." seized with the necessity to assist landholders to carry out the duties imposed. upon th~m Motion agreed to. by law to destroy dingoes on their propert1~s at their own cost and expense. After all, It STOCK ROUTES AND RURAL LANDS is merely common sense to co-operate in this PROTECTION ACTS AMENDMENT matter. If the number of dingoes outside the BILL fence can be reduced, the number that ultimately get through it and have to be INITIATION IN COMMITTEE destroyed is also reduced. (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, The assistance provided by the Co-ordinat­ Greenslopes, in the chair) ing Board in the control of dingoes is quite Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ extensive and includes- Minister for Lands) (11.24 a.m.): I move- !. The establishment of a dingo barrier "That a Bill be introduced to amend the round the main sheep area, which carries Stock Routes and Rural Lands Protection over 20,000,000 sheep. That is a dog­ Acts, 1944 to 1963, in certain particulars." proof barrier fence, the construction of which is not an inconsiderable job. The Bill provides for the registration of Dingo Destruction Syndicates. However, 2. The payment of a bonus for dingoes before giving a resume of the purposes of the destroyed. Bill, I desire to acquaint hon. members with 3. The supply to landholders of the work that has been, and is being, under­ strychnine at cost price free of railage. taken by the controlling authority to assist 4. The supply to landholders of poison landholders to counteract the dingo menace, baits at half cost of manufacture and free and of the reasons for the introduction of the of railage. They are strychnine baits made proposed legislative measure by experts to a satisfactory specification. The control and direction of the destruction 5. The annual distribution of about of dingoes comes within the ambit of the 1,000,000 baits along, and in the vicinity of, Stock Routes and Rural Lands Protection the barrier fence. Acts, as is well known to the Committee. Under these Acts a Co-ordinating Board con­ 6. The employment of daggers under the sisting of six representatives of rural industries jurisdiction of local authorities. and four public servants is charged, among The cost of providing this assistance approxi­ other things, with the making of recommenda­ mates £140,000 annually. Although that is tions for dingo control. In effect, this board quite a considerable sum, it is very worth­ is a policy-framing authority and, as grazing while expenditure when one considers the and farming interests have a preponderance value of the industry that is being protected. Stock Routes and Rural Lands [17 NovEMBER] Protection Acts Amendment Bill 1529

The main sheep area projects itself like and I think we owe Mr. Brebner a good a long, narrow tongue-that is how it appears deal for the devoted work that he has put on a map; if one goes across it physically into the project. it is quite a large area of land-through the The great pride of ownership now being centre of Queensland west of the Great exhibited by many landholders in their Dividing Range for an average depth of fence-it is a fact that as one goes round about 300 to 350 miles, and extends from the sheep country one meets men who are the Queensland-New South Wales border to really proud to show that they are main­ a point about 70 miles north of taining their sections of the barrier fence, the Townsville-Cloncurry railway line. and maintaining it well-and the mainten­ Unlike any other State in Australia, ance of at least 90 per cent. of the fence Queensland's main sheep lands are without compulsion augurs well for the future flanked on three sides by cattle lands of the barrier fence. Of course, it is in that are intersected by large river systems the interests of those whose properties abut and mountain ranges, which unfortunately onto the fence to do the maintenance. The provide harbourage for dingoes. It is from planning and completion of a fence of this these cattle lands, wherein dingo control type at a cost equal to less than ld. a sheep poses a very great problem, that the dingo per annum is, to say the least, deserving of migrated to the sheep lands, and this con­ commendation. It is a sizeable feather in stant and almost unrestricted invasion of the cap of those who undertook it, and I dingoes to these lands gave birth to the think we can point to it as a project that 3,500-mile barrier fence, which is regarded is very well justified economically. as one of the greatest undertakings in Australia for the protection of sheep from With a view of relieving the pressure the ravages of dingoes. It crosses all sorts of dingoes on the barrier fence, approxim­ of terrain and was very expensive to build. ately 1,000,000 poison baits are distributed annually along and in the vicinity of the The fence, which encloses 135,000,000 outside of the fence to take the pressure acres of sheep land, has now been com­ from the fence. True it is that an assess­ pleted, and already increased lambings in ment of the "kill" could never be made, many areas have demonstrated that, with and I feel it is because of this that doubts continued care and maintenance, it will be a are cast by some persons as to the efficacy fairly effective barrier against dingoes. of aerial baiting. I have had people come Obviously it will not be completely effective to my office and condemn aerial baiting at once, or even eventually, but it will as completely futile, a waste of public become a more and more effective barrier money and of no use to anybody; but I have over the years and, indeed, is to be the also had many people claim it as one of the background for the attack against dingoes best things that has been done, and taking generally. aerial baiting as a whole, I think it has been When the fence was being planned it was a markedly effective way of at least lessening not thought for one minute that it would the problem. I feel that I might aptly use keep out every dingo, but it was considered the phrase, "50,000,000 Frenchmen can't be that, with proper maintenance, the fence wrong." I have had the equivalent of would keep out the waves of dingoes that 50,000,000 Frenchmen tell me to carry on formerly had unrestricted access to the with it, that it is a good thing and is well sheep lands. Over the years we noted that justified. Some of the things that are said dingoes increased in number and then trekked to me are that the-se aerial campaigns have into the sheep areas and became a problem. the blessing of, and are recommended by, They had almost unrestricted access before the parent bodies of grazing and local­ the fence was erected, and it was considered authority associations; that the States of that the fence would enable effective control Western Australia and South Australia carry to be exercised over dingoes left within the out aerial baiting each year with the same fence upon its completion. types of baits as are used in Queensland and for the same reason. They feel, as As could be expected, a major project of we do, that they are justified. Requests this nature has not been without its teething are received time and time again from land­ troubles, but they are fast disappearing. holders for an extension of baiting pro­ When they are gone, I am sure that the grammes to take in their properties. Those fence will be of tremendous benefit to the plea·s are characteristic all over the West; sheep industry and will stand as a monu­ many people are pleading for an extension ment to those people who planned the pro­ of the baiting campaign to take in their ject and carried out the arduous and pains­ properties because they believe it is effective. taking task of bringing it to fruition. I The lessees of one very large property in think it would be appropriate for me, in Western Queensland have told me several relation to this, to mention the name of Mr. times that they regularly aerial bait their Jack Brebner, because he has worked very holding with baits manufactured for the painstakingly and patiently to get the Co-ordinating Board and they claim they co-operation-if not the willing co-operation, have virtually eliminated the dingo in a at least the enforced co-operation-of the large area of difficult dingo country. The land owners along the 3,500 miles of the sale of baits to Jandholders has reached a fence. That was no inconsiderable task, total as high as 500,000 per annum, which 1530 Stock Routes and Rural Lands [ASSEMBLY] Protection Acts Amendment Bill means that some people think they are tank. Apparently it had fallen in when fairly good otherwise they would not be it was trying to get a drink. Obviously it paying for them. Of course, as I said had had pups because it was distended with before, they are paying for them at only milk. The dingo mother was kept alive half the cost of their manufacture. Many to prove that she was a dingo and all the landholders write to me saying that after pups from the surrounding districts were each aerial campaign has been undertaken collected and presented to the shire clerk. they can detect a marked decrease in the The female dog was obviously a dingo, but number of dingoes that are in or around the 12 pups from the surrounding area were their properties. a bit mixed-who knows, you know what The present rate of bonus is £1. This dogs are! Payment was made for the lot. is a debatable matter. Many people say Nobody would have known anything about it ought to be £2, or £3, or £5, but the it had this man not got drunk at the local bonus has never killed the dingo-not com­ hotel and boasted about it. pletely. In the long run, when dingoes Mr. Aikens: In the Cloncurry district some become fewer in number it does not pay the years ago they made a lot of money by man who makes a living from bonuses to treating kangaroo hides to make them look get the last one. It might take him weeks like dingo scalps, and selling them. to catch one, so eventually, unless you have a fence that will effectively stop a Mr. FLETCHER: What a dishonest thing re-invasion you have not really effectively to do! stopped the dingoes at all. They can come Forty-three full-time and part-time doggers back in and breed again. are engaged under local-authority jurisdiction Bonuses are paid by the local authority in various parts of the State. The wages to the person presenting the scalp to an and allowances of these doggers are paid authorised person, and the amount of bonus out of the Stock Routes and Pests Destruc­ so paid is reimbursed to local authorities tion Fund. Most of them are operating in from the Stock Routes and Pests Destruc­ the marginal sheep lands and adjoining cattle tion Fund. In all the circumstances, I think, lands in the vicinity of, and not far removed that the bonus payment of £1 is really from, the barrier fence. The dagger is a about as satisfactory a standard as can be very valuable member of the community. struck. The present bonus is the same as In all, he is a rather odd sort of chap who that paid in South Australia and the often ad Jibs with nature. He gets to the Northern Territory. stage where he almost thinks like a dingo. From time to time representations have After all, he has to if he is to out-think the been made for an increase in the rate in native dog in its own environment. When Queensland, but the Co-ordinatinrr Board is there are only one or two dingoes left in quick t_o point out-;-and it has the backing an area they are probably very cunning and of v~nous rural mdustry representatives­ have evaded all the conventional methods of that If the rate of bonus paid in Queens­ trapping or poisoning. The dogger, with his land was greater than that in other States knowledge of how a dog thinks, is often there would be quite a leakage of ding~ the only one who has any chance of out­ scalps from the £1 area into the £2, £3, witting those animals. Sometimes a par­ and £4 areas. ticularly dangerous animal can be worth £10, £20, £50 or even £100 to him. Mr. O'Donnell: They would fly them in. The service provided to Iandholders by the Mr. ~LETCHER: Yes. If dingoes were Co-ordinating Board in supplying poison and caught m South Australia and the bonus baits at concessional rates, free of rail w~s worth £5 in Queensland doggers could freights, provides an incentive to them to brmg the scalps from South Amtralia to carry out their obligations to destroy dingoes. Queensland and make a handsome profit. This service is widely availed of and appreciated by landholders . . Mr. Aikens: How can you tell a dried dmgo scalp from the dried scalp of a That brings me to the reason for the domestic dog? introduction of this Bill. It is to help the Mr. FLETCHER: I do not think you can. industry to help itself-to help members of We have to rely on the fact that it does the industry who, perhaps, are impeded by not. pay to breed domestic dogs out in that the unwillingness of some few of their environment merely to scalp them. I am neighbours to co-operate with them in doing afraid it is one of those cases where honesty the job of cleaning out pockets of dingoes, and honour have to set the standard. I am mainly within the barrier fence, which, in quite certain that there is no way that the the main, is of special value in that once scalp of a domestic dog can be distinguished an area has been cleaned out properly it from a dingo's scalp. I know that many can be maintained in a clean condition. men have boasted about getting £1 each The sheep industry, through the United for .the scalps of a litter of pups from Graziers' Association, the Selectors' Associa­ Lassie. On the Downs on one occasion one tion and the Local Government Association, of my neighbouring shire council chairmen has represented to the Co-ordinating Board admitted to me that he had been caught. that considerable as that board's assistance A man found a dingo mother in his windmill is, the dingo problem will not be solved Stock Routes and Rural Lands [17 NovEMBER] Protection Acts Amendment Bill 1531 within the barrier fence unless all land­ unanimously in agreement with them. They holders play their part in taking measures then requested that the Co-ordinating Board to clean out pockets of dingoes on their approach me with a view to consideration holdings. These associations have pointed being given to the introduction of legislation out that since construction of the barrier embodying the proposals as agreed upon at fence considerable numbers of landholders, the conference. either by themselves or in groups, are taking The Bill to be presented embodies the active measures against the dingoes, but in proposals as submitted and fully expresses the many cases their activity is nullified to a desires of the industry. The intention of the very great extent by the one who will not amendments is to provide for the registration pull his weight. He is quite prepared to take of groups of landholders as dingo-destruction advantage of any action that his neighbours syndicates and of their holdings as dingo­ take but he will not co-operate with them destruction-syndicate areas. They provide also to see that the control is 100 per cent. for compulsory membership in certain cases effective. and give registered syndicates legal authority These associations consider that the best to levy fees and charges against members, and means of ensuring that the "not so keen" and to recover those fees and charges, if necessary, the "do little or nothing at all" type of lessees by a process of law. It is no use going halfway play their part is to introduce legislation in a case like this. There has to be a concerted making it competent for a two-thirds majority effort. of landholders in a dingo-infested area to more or less compel the co-operation of their Mr. O'Donnell: Are you giving these syndi­ neighbours. By the provisions in the Bill they cates the status of a corporate body? can request the remaining landholders to join Mr. FLETCHER: I do not think I would with them in forming a dingo destruction call it a corporate body. We are giving them syndicate and can apply to the Minister for some legal teeth to levy charges which would inclusion of their holdings in the syndicate then have to be expended on a trust basis, in area if the landholders to whom the request terms of what action is to be taken for the is made do not agree. That is to say, they destruction of dingoes. want the Minister to have power to include them in the syndicate area whether they are It is not possible to estimate the present willing or not, so long as a two-thirds majority dingo population within the sheep lands, but wants to take the action. conservatively it is considered that approx­ imately 10 per cent. of the total dingo The associations also consider that, if the population of Queensland is still within the Minister approves of the request, a landholder area enclosed by the barrier fence, and that who is compelled to join the syndicate should most of this 10 per cent. inhabit the marginal have the right to object and that such objec­ sheep lands, that is, the lands in the vicinity tion should be heard by the Land Court. of the barrier fence. After all, there may be some special reason for his not wanting to be included. At present a number of dingo destruction syndicates are operating voluntarily and are The associations also pointed out that legis­ serving a very useful and effective purpose in lation of this nature could not be regarded as controlling the dingo within the barrier fence, harsh as it has long been a provision of the and it is the consensus of opinion in the sheep Land Act that a two-thirds majority of land­ industry that an extension of these syndicates holders may request the remaining land­ to other dingo-infested lands will go a long holders to enter into an agreement to erect a way towards solving the dingo problem within netting fence-for the same sort of purpose­ the sheep lands. along the external boundaries of all holdings, and to apply to the Minister to compel such Mr. Hughes: Have you any idea of the cost landholders to be parties to the agreement if to the economy of dingo destruction? they object to the request. Indeed, the prin­ ciple in that case is the same as the one behind Mr. FLETCHER: I said earlier that it the present amendment-to compel the would be reasonable to say that it costs co-operation of an unwilling neighbour in a £1,000,000 a year; but I would also say that dingo-infested area. there is no way of getting down to an exact At the insistence of rural industry represent­ basis of computing it. On the basis of what atives, and on their unanimous recommen­ the industry thinks, £1,000,000 probably does dation, the Co-ordinating Board drafted not cover it; it is probably a conservative proposals which it considered would give figure. effect to the desires of the industry, and with It is averred by the industry that unless the my consent these proposals were submitted to lackadaisical owner-the man who is so grazing and local-government associations for unworried about his own interests that he will examination by them preparatory to the not do anything-is compelled to carry out matter being discussed at a conference his lawful obligation, control of the dingo will between the Co-ordinating Board and repre­ not only be difficult but will be a continuing sentatives of those associations. At the confer­ high expense for those who do carry out ence that was held subsequently, the control measures, especially where the odd­ representatives of the associations said that hod who will not help himself or his neigh­ they had thoroughly examined the Co-ordinat­ bours is in a strategic area on fairly rough ing Board's proposals and that they were country. 1532 Stock Routes, &c., Amendment Bill [ASSEMBLY] Supply

The industry considers that now that the That is absolutely necessary. Cessation of barrier fence is completed all landholders membership does not absolve an owner from should make a concerted effort to control the paying dues, &c., owing to the syndicate, nor dingo and that this can best be accomplished does it prejudice the right of the syndicate by introducing legislative measures such as to recover them. are contained in this Bill, and I have already said that landholders have agreed to what the The Minister is given power to cancel Bill is intended to do. registration of a syndicate under certain circumstances, and a legal obligation is The Bill provides that four or more owners placed upon members of a syndicate to pay of adjacent holdings who desire to form a to the syndicate the amounts levied by it. dingo destruction syndicate may apply for registration as such. The contents of the Bill fulfil the desires of the industry. I have been very careful It is also provided in the Bill that a two­ in this regard. There are throughout the thirds majority of owners may request the industry practical men who can be relied remaining owners to join with them in the upon, in their own interests, for information formation of a dingo destruction syndicate, and sound advice, and I have taken every and may apply to the Minister for registration advantage of this fact. The provisions of of all owners in that area as a dingo destruc­ the Bill cannot in any way be regarded as tion syndicate. harsh or inequitable and I feel that there It is a prerequisite of any such application will be no opposition to it. I repeat that that the one-third minority who object must it is designed to help those who wish to be given 30 days' notice by the applicant and help themselves. apprised of the proposed working of the Progress reported. syndicate. That is fair enough. The Bill also provides that before the Minister grants an application he must also SUPPLY give to the one-third minority 30 days' notice RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE-ESTIMATES­ of his intention to grant the application and, SIXTEENT!f ALLOTTED DAY within this period, the dissentient owners may request the Minister to refer the matter to the (Mr. Campbell, Aspley, in the chair) Land Court for hearing and determination. ESTIMATES-IN -CHIEF, 1964-65 In each case the Land Court's decision is final and conclusive. Registration of the syndicate EXECUTIVE AND LEGISLATIVE-HIS will follow if the Court dismisses every EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOR objection. Should the Court uphold an objec­ (BALANCE OF VOTE) tion or objections the Minister cannot grant registration pursuant to the application, but Hon. G. F. R. NICKLIN (Landsborough­ the owners who signed the application may Premier) ( 11.57 a.m.): I move- request registration by the Minister of all 'That £29,042 be granted for 'His owners with the exception of those whose Excellency the Governor (Balance of objections have been upheld by the Court. Vote)'." It may be mentioned that the provisions of As hon. members will note, this Vote is Section 326 of the Land Act relating to the approximately the same as that for last year, erection of communal ring fences as dog the only increases being those caused by fences are somewhat similar to the provision higher salaries and costs of services in the of the Bill now before the Chamber, and last 12 months. provide a similar safeguard for objecting owners. I should like to take the opportunity afforded by the debate on this Vote to The Bill makes provision for the admission express appreciation to His Excellency the of new members to a registered syndicate and Governor of the wonderful job that he is for the withdrawal of members from a syndi­ doing in this State as the representative of cate. It also gives power of entry by the Her Majesty the Queen. I think all hon. syndicate to any holding in the syndicate area members will agree that His Excellency does to search for and destroy dingoes or to cause a spendid job, and that we have in him a aerial baiting to be carried out on any such most widely travelled and widely known holding. Governor. He is constantly travelling to The Bill provides that should membership various parts of the State and making him­ of a registered syndicate be reduced to fewer self acquainted with the problems of the than four in number by reason of any deter­ people, and contacting personally those in mination, and the remaining members desire even the far-flung parts in Queensland. He to continue as a syndicate, registration shall has just returned from a tour of Cape York not be cancelled in that case merely because Peninsula and the Torres Strait Islands. it is below four. I believe that the people of Queensland It also provides that upon transfer of a appreciate very much this personal contact by holding the incoming lessee automatically His Excellency and the fact that he has becomes a member of the syndicate. If a shown such a great interest in their problems. person buys a property, he also buys the I may say that he has a very real interest in obligation to work in with his neighbours. them, particularly those associated with the Supply [17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1533 pastoral, agricultural, and horticultural indus­ that it believes him to be one of the best tries. This can be readily appreciated Governors who have ever had the pleasure because His Excellency is himself an agri­ of representing Her Majesty in Queensland. culturist, a stock breeder, and a practical Items (His Excellency the Governor­ farmer. He speaks to people in various Balance of Vote) agreed to. parts of the State with a knowledge of their particular problems. EXECUTIVE COUNCIL I should say that there is no stronger advocate of pasture improvement in Queens­ Hon. G. F. R. NICKLIN (Landsborough land than His Excellency the Governor. -Premier) (12.3 p.m.): I move- Wherever he goes he supports the policy "That £860 be granted for 'Executive of improving pastures, and, as a result, Council'." people in many parts of the State have been encouraged to undertake experiments This is an increase of £149 on the actual in this field that have been of great benefit expenditure last year. It is due to provision to Queensland generally. being made for the payment of an appro­ priate allowance to a relieving clerk of the In addition to taking a personal interest Executive Council and to increased costs in agricultural industries, His Excellency associated with the work of the Council. also takes a keen interest in the industrial potential of the State. He is a frequent Vote (Executive Council) agreed to. visitor to many industries, not only in the metropolitan area but also in the provincial LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY cities. Hon. G. F. R. NICKLIN (Landsborough We all know, too, the great personal -Premier) (12.4 p.m.): I move- support that he gives to various charitable "That £210,214 be granted for 'Legis- organisations in Queensland, particularly lative Assembly'." those associated with the care of children­ bush children, handicapped children, spastics, This is an increase of £9,510 on last year's and children suffering from other disabilities. actual expenditure, consisting of an increase His Excellency carries out his routine in salaries of £264 and an increase in con­ duties of Governor of Queensland with great tingencies of £9,246. The Vote for salaries credit to himself and with great dignity, which, as I said, shows a small increase, and because of the personal contact that he makes provision for the annual increments has established with people in all parts of becoming due during the current year, and the State, he is doing a wonderful job for the basic-wage increase approved by the Queensland and for Her Majesty, as her State Industrial Commission in July, 1964. There has been no increase in the staff, representative here. which remains the same at 38. In this work he is supported very ably by his wife, Lady May, who also takes Hon. members may wonder why there a very keen, active and personal interest in has been such a small salary increase. This the life of the people of this State, par­ is because last year we had 27 pay periods ticularly its children. We are fortunate in whereas this year there will be only 26. having such a good Governor and his That accounts for the relatively minor consort, and I should like to take this increase, notwithstanding that we have taken opportunity of paying a tribute to them and into account the increase in the basic wage, saying how much their work is appreciated etc. by all members of this Assembly. In the contingencies Vote, the increase is taken up mainly by £3,715 in the item for Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ "Hansard" and other printing, telephones, Leader of the Opposition) (12.2 p.m.): I stationery, maintenance, etc. This increase had not intended to speak on this Vote; is required to cover the higher costs of but as the Premier has spent some minutes printing, telephones, and so on. There extolling the Governor, I think that if the has been an increase of £4,750 in the cost report appears in "Hansard" and there is of air transport of country members. This no comment from this side of the Chamber is due to the increased number of return it may be construed that the Opposition air flights that have been provided for this does not share the Premier's high opinion year. As hon. members are aware, the of His Excellency and Lady May. number of air flights for members has been I reiterate what has been said on many increased from 12 to 18 per annum. Those occasions previously: that His Excellency two amounts account for the major pro­ the Governor, with the assistance of Lady portion of the contingencies increase. May, has done a splendid job since he has been in Queensland. He has always Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba West­ been very courteous, and he has travelled Leader of the Opposition) (12.7 p.m.): I widely in order to acquire the requisite do not intend to say a great deal on this knowledge to pass on to bodies that are Vote, but I feel that I would be remiss to interested in the development that should Mr. Speaker if I did not record in "Hansard" take place in the State. All in all, the my appreciation of the work done by the Opposition can say with complete sincerity committee in regard to the alterations in 1534 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

the Assembly Chamber. I think Mr. Speaker Library Committee to live within the could reasonably expect from the Opposition approved appropriation. There is an appre­ some expression of opinion. ciable increase in the cost of binding. It is very important to preserve books that require I think a very good job has been done. binding. The emphasis certainly has not been It is not easy to be constructive in one's on fiction, on which ther.e has been only a criticism of alterations of this kind, but I very small expenditure. When hon. members feel there is something slightly lacking in are going back to their electorates by air or the painting of the Chamber. I think it is train after dealing with serious matters all a little drab and I should like to see some the week it is probably a good thing to hav.e colour used to bring up the panels a little. lighter material to read. I think the Library This is purely an expression of personal very properly should make reasonable pro­ opinion. There is much to be said for what vision for fiction books, but by no stretch has been done, and the only criticism I of the imagination could anyone say that it have is purely on the aesthetic side. The overspends its money on novels. colour seems to me to be a trifle light, but again I must confess I would not have been I think ther.e is a great need for the any more helpful than other members were Library to be given the opportunity to get a in determining what was done. I commend number of standard books on subjects that Mr. Speaker and the members of the com­ are current at the moment. It should have mittee for the work they have done. books dealing with coal and the processes Undoubtedly it has improved the comfort that might be used for developing our coal and convenience of members and I think r.esources, books dealing with oil, which is so I should publicly record my appreciation very important to the economy of this State, of what has been done. If the Chamber books dealing with the changed position had been a little larger it would have lent overseas and the possible future of the itself to an altered system of seating, but European Common Market-all sorts of in all the circumstances I think the architects books of that description. With 78 members, and the members of the committee have each with the r.esponsibility of making con­ done a very good job. tributions in this Chamber, we should be able to get up-to-date information quickly on What I wish to mention principally today all subjects. I am afraid that because of the is this: when I was a new member of this very low sum spent on it the Library has Assembly I was one of the few who every fallen back from its previous very high year made a lengthy discourse on demo­ standard. cracy and matters of that kind. Those days seem to have passed. It is not that The Commonwealth Parliament has the I do not think it is important but it is most magnificent library in the whole of merely an academic discourse that some Australia. That is brought about by the people read and then it is thrown into the larger appropriation for it and also because archives and forgotten. I appeal today to of the Copyright Act, which requires pub­ the Premier to re-examine the allocation lishers to furnish the Commonwealth Parlia­ for the Library. I think it is a matter for mentary Library with a stated number of regret that in the Estimates for the year copies of all books sold in Australia. Con­ there is a reduction of £200 in this Vote. When we have resources amounting to well sequently it has every available book on over £100,000,000-indeed, our total every subject. With time such an important resources run into the vicinity of £250,000,000 consideration, perhaps we need to have a when we consider all the revenue that comes greater variety of specialist services so that to the Crown in various ways-1 think we when we want some information from the are being unduly parsimonious in our Library Librarian he can quickly get us the latest expenditure. It is a good Library. We information on the subject. This is a matter have an excellent Librarian and assistants to that does not apply merely to a particular help us. They are all extremely courteous. section or group of members. As members However, there is an increasing requirement of the Legislativ.e Assembly we are all speak­ in modern Parliaments for members to be ing on common ground. We are not speak­ furnished quickly with information on a wide ing here as Labour members, Liberal or range of subjects. The other day when we Country Party members, or Independent were debating the Estimates of the Depart­ members. We are speaking as members of ment of Education I asked my secretary to get me certain information from the Library. the Legislative Assembly with common I was rather appalled to find that most of privileges and common responsibilities. the latest reference books on the subject I hope that the Premier will take a look were published in 1959. Since that time at this matter. I feel that he is crippling the there have been tremendous changes in our Librarian unduly when such a great volume outlook on educational matters. of funds is available. If the Treasurer has I do not think we permit our Librarian studied this Vote closely and has pinned the to keep as up to date as the requir.ements Parliamentary Library down to a certain of the times demand. In 1962-63 we spent amount, I am quite certain that a little bit £1.350 18s. on books; last year we spent of clos.e examination will enable economies only £877 9s. 3d. That fraction of expendi­ to be effected somewhere else so that the ture was because of the obligation of the Library can get more money. Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1535

I know that many hon. members wish to is the topic of today. The matter was debated take part in this debate so I will not take up some time ago. He wanted to be well versed too much time. I think I have made my in the debate which took place during the point. I appreciate the work of the Librarian First World War when the then Premier, Mr. and the assistance given to us but to keep the T. J. Ryan, led a very forceful debate Library in first-class condition we need the against conscription. I took my friend to injection of new books. The balance sheet the Library and asked if we could have the discloses that there has been a very serious "Hansard" for the day on which the debate curtailment in the amount made available took place. Within three minutes of the for new books. There has b.een a reported request my friend was studying the speeches increase of 30 per cent. in the cost of books on conscription made by the then Premier. since 1958. The Estimates should take He was very happy with the service and cognisance of that fact. I think the Premier the facility provided. That is just an indica­ should investigate this matter to see whether tion of the efficiency of our Library staff some increase can be made to this Vote and I hope that hon. members recognise during the present financial year. it, apart from the fact that we need many volumes to keep abreast of what is happen­ Mr. HUGHES (Kurilpa) (12.16 p.m.): I ing in other parts of the world. have a few remarks to make about the matters covered on Page 8 of the Estimates There are many aspects of the Estimates concerning Executive and Legislative to which I should like to refer at length expenditure. I share the view expressed by but I will bear in mind that other hon. the Leader of the Opposition on the members wish to contribute to this debate. decrease of £200 in expenditure on the I pay a tribute to the "Hansard" staff. I do Library. Hon. members of all parties, know that they are faced with acoustic whether they are city or country members, problems since the refurnishing of the Cham­ represent many different interests in this ber, but I think they do a wonderfully good Chamber and at times their opinions must job. The speeches are all the better for having be guided solely by knowledge gained from been reported by the "Hansard" staff, and are the Library. Many of us cannot travel in fact better as they appear in "Hansard" extensively and, on matters such as child than when they were made. Our grammatical welfare, education and many social prob­ errors disappear and our English becomes lems, to compare just what people in other almost perfect. It seems that we could pass a countries are doing with what is being done test set by any professor of English. I feel here and how their governments grapple that other members of the Chamber would with these problems we can glean informa­ join with me in paying a tribute to the skill tion only from the Library. of the "Hansard" staff, their accuracy, and At this stage I pay a tribute to Mr. the manner in which they are able to present Gunthorpe and the Library staff. They "Hansard" as a true and correct record of the have always been courteous and helpful. proceedings in this Chamber. But for the efficiency of the Library staff Mr. Bennett: Can you tell us why they and the number of volumes available, our won't let us buy copies? position would be harder. When the economy of the country is so buoyant and Mr. HUGHES: Copies can be purchased. our standard of living is so high, and we have However, your question involves defamation ever-increasing legislation to deal with many and it is a question for Mr. Speaker, not aspects of statutes on the books which have for me. I get sufficient for my purposes. not been altered for a long time, it is hard I recently ordered 5,500 copies of an to understand why there should be a irrefutable submission which I made recently decrease in expenditure on the Library. Not in the Chamber and they will be distributed in long ago we altered the liquor legislation the proper quarter. Such is the demand which had not been touched for 25 years: that I could buy another 5,500 now. and we have had to amend another act which had not previously been altered for Mr. Bennett: How much are they charging 50 years. you for them? In our thinking today we must be able The CHAIRMAN: Order! to compare conditions here with those in other countries so that our contributions to Mr. HUGHES: They charged me £15. It debates in the Chamber may be more was less than an outside printer would charge. enlightened. I support the view expressed If the hon. member is the mathematical genius by the Leader of the Opposition in the he thinks he is, and if he can solve all the hope that there will be a review of this problems in the community, he can work it matter so that any leeway that has occurred out for himself. may be made up. The Library is necessary for us to be able to carry out properly The CHAIRMAN: Order! our responsibilities to those whom we Mr. HUGHES: If the hon. member wanted represent in this Chamber. to put his views about the subject matter of I well remember an occasion when a the royal commission concerning the friend of mine wished to take part in a National Hotel he had the opportunity debate on conscription, which by coincidence to do so by attending the commission. He did 1536 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply not do that at the time. I cannot help him school children and others who attend sit­ because the time has now gone. He should tings of Parliament because notice of ques­ take the matter up with Mr. Speaker. tions to be asked tomorrow is given today, questions of which notice was given yes­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! terday are answered today, and those in the Mr. Bennett: Don't tell me about attending public gallery obtain little benefit from these the court-- proceedings because they do not hear the questions as well as the answers to them. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. Aikens: Country school children never Mr. HUGHES: I have a suggestion to make get the opportunity to come to Parliament to Mr. Speaker on the furnishings. One House. cannot expect Mr. Speaker to take over the Mr. HUGHES: That is up to the hon. administration of Parliament House and over­ member for Townsville South to organise night, by magic, fix up everything requiring something to overcome that situation. attention. The balconies outside this Chamber Mr. Aikens: You are speaking purely as a were almost falling down and needed a tremendous amount of maintenance. The old metropolitan member. uncomfortable, carriage-type seats that were Mr. HUGHES: I suggest that the hon. previously in this Chamber have now gone. I member give consideration to working out a pay a tribute to Mr. Speaker for the work he system under which rail travel concessions did in that regard; but I do not think we could possibly be granted to enable country should stop there. children to visit Brisbane for this purpose. I believe that sympathetic consideration would At present, if a person comes to Parliament be given to such a scheme. House to interview a member of Parliament he is seated on a rather long and hard bench­ Many things could be said concerning the type seat, and no reading material is provided correspondence room and the switchboard. for him. Even a dentist's waiting-room offers I have heard the opinion expressed that the more in the way of comfort and privacy than worst switchboard in Brisbane is at the we offer our constituents who come to Parlia­ Brisbane City Hall. I feel that there is an ment House. If a citizen visits the Central even worse one here, and in saying that I Technical College end of the building where refer to not only the capacity of the switch­ the Liberal Party members have their office board but the availability of telephones accommodation, he is shown to a seat next to upstairs and downstairs for the better con­ a rubbish basket full of old "Hansards" and duct of the business of the House. other paper refuse. I feel it is Finally, an amount of £14,750 is appro­ time that adequate consideration was priated for air transport of country members. given to providing worth-while and necessary Mr. Aikens: Not half enough. recognition to the facilities that should be offered to taxpayers who call to see members. Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member for I realise that these things cannot be done Townsville South says, "Not half enough." overnight, but I hope due consideration will I believe that city members should have the be given to that matter. opportunity to visit many of the areas that are the subject of legislation. Many city If a constitutent with a personal problem members, for instance, do not know much requiring a degree of privacy calls to see his about the brigalow lands development member, the member is not able to conduct scheme because they have not had an oppor­ the interview properly because, for instance, tunity of going to the area and viewing the in my case the room I occupy is used also by development. It may be said that gold five other members; and when one is on the passes are available for rail travel. Time, phone and another is dictating, and a constit­ however, does not permit of travel by this uent comes in with a personal problem, it is method and, bearing in mind the salaries impossible to conduct an interview. Because paid to members, the use of rail passes to of the lack of privacy, at times it would be travel to and from distant areas would cost almost better to conduct the interview on the the State a small fortune. The beef-cattle footpath. In fact, I have had to conduct roads scheme is often mentioned here. How an interview on the outside porch. Our are hon. members to get to the Channel constituents deserve far better treatment Country? I have been there and have gained than that. That is their right and they some knowledge of it, and I know that many should demand it. Provision should be others would welcome a similar opportunity. made for members, when conducting inter­ views with people, to afford them the proper Mr. Aikens interjected. degree of privacy, and to give to them the facilities to which they are entitled. They are Mr. HUGHES: I have done more hard paying for it. We are their servants. When work in my few years than has the hon. they come here they are the boss and should member for Townsville South. I have done be afforded every facility. my share of it. I have been in the South­ west, the Central-west and North-west. There are quite a number of other mat­ I have worked in the shearing sheds ters to which I hope consideration will be and worked damned hard. Mount Isa given in due course. I have sympathy for and its present industrial unrest are Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1537 often spoken of. Many hon. members electorates, and the adoption of the hon. do not know what Mount Isa looks like. member's suggestion would help them to do I realise that the amount appropriated for that. air fares cannot be increased this year. I That is no concern of mine; I do not want do, however, suggest that it be increased in to be brought into any dogfight between the the Estimates for next year. I do not believe Country Party and the Liberal Party. But I that such travel opportunities should be am rather astonished each time I hear a confined to country members. I consider metropolitan member stand up in this Cham­ that air transport should be made available ber and claim more concessions and privi­ for city members, for the reasons that I leges for metropolitan members. They never have mentioned. seem to consider the plight of country mem­ When I became a member of Parliament bers. For instance, a metropolitan member I visited during the Christmas recess, at my has an office in Parliament House for 12 own expense native settlements and places months of the year; he has the secretarial such as Cairns, the tobacco-growing areas of services in Parliament House available to him the Mareeba district, Tinaroo Falls Dam, for 12 months of the year; he has free local and various other places. With the help of telephone services available to him in Parlia­ country members, including the hon. members ment House for 12 months of the year; he for Cook and Mulgrave, I was able to see has the facilities of the library, the refresh­ many aspects of the State's economy and ment rooms, and all the other facilities at development that otherwise I would not have Parliament House available to him-at cut a knowledge. I feel that if this is to be rates, of course-for 12 months of the year; a truly representative Parliament functioning and very often he brings into the gallery at with a broad State outlook, the cost of a Parliament House the school children from limited number of flights by hon. members his electorate so that he may indulge in a to projects undertaken by the Government little bit of political propaganda. I have no would be a good investment for the State. objection to that. After all, the hon. mem­ We could visit hospitals, native settlements, ber for Kurilpa is at least pushing the barrow and so on and inspect public works and other of the metropolitan member. However, projects that may be the subject of legislation. unfortunately, under former Governments as well as under this Government, it has been Mr. Walsh: The Commonwealth Govern­ pushed far too often at the expense of ment does it. country members. Mr. HUGHES: I believe it does it to a As a matter of fact, metropolitan members great extent. receive an allowance of £600 a year and do not have to pay any tax on it; on the other Mr. Walsh: It sends members overseas, hand, country members pay tax on a large too. portion of their parliamentary allowances. The hon. member for Townsville North and Mr. HUGHES: I do not think it is really I pay tax on £220 of our allowances, and the a privilege; it is an educational requirement. hon. member for Gregory, the hon. member Members would not prostitute it; they would for Barcoo, the hon. member for Warrego, not have enough time to do that. As the and the hon. members for Tablelands, Cook, hon. member for Bundaberg said, members and other distant electorates, who really of the Federal Parliament travel extensively should be our first consideration, are paying at the Government's expense, and they are tax on about £500 or £600 of their parlia­ all the better for it and the Government of mentary allowances. I can say now what I the country is better for it. In the Federal said with equal truth 20 years ago: that this sphere it is done on a non-party basis, and Parliament is run, maintained and adminis­ it should be done in a similar way here. tered in the interests of metropolitan mem­ Members should have an opportunity to bers; whereas the man who comes from the travel not only over the length and breadth country, irrespective of the political party to of Queensland but in other parts of which he belongs, is regarded more or less Australia. as a poor relation, or a thing of rags and tatters, like the wandering minstrel in "The I hope that next year's Estimates will pro­ Mikado". vide increases to cover the many deficiencies that I have mentioned. I want to deal with the true essence of democratic parliamentary procedure. When Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (12.31 all is said and done, each member of this p.m.): I do not mind the desire of the hon. Assembly is responsible only to the people member for Kurilpa to push the barrow for who elect him. If he belongs to a particular metropolitan members, because, when all is party, of course, he is bound, also, by party said and done, self-preservation is the first rules and party discipline; but I am not Jaw of nature. However, I do think he could going to deal with that. As members of be a little more open and frank about his Parliament, we are responsible only to the claim for country air fares for metropolitan people who elect us. If we come into this members. We all know, of course, that Chamber and want to participate in the members of the Liberal Party are keen to debates or the activities in the Chamber, get out into the country and organise then we are bound by the Standing Orders, Liberal Party branches in Country Party as administered and interpreted by Mr. 1538 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Speaker or the Chairman of Committees, member of this Assembly, what opportunity and we are bound by the customs, pro­ would I have of raising this matter other cedures, and precedents of this Parliament. than on the Estimates dealing with the But we are representatives of the people who Legislative Assembly? This is the only send us to this Parliament and, as such, we chance I have of doing that. If you debar are denied many of the things to which we me from doing it now then I must be are entitled. I am not speaking about silenced and I do not think any member of material things; I am not speaking about this Parliament should be silenced when he allowances, gold passes, air fares and that is simply stating a case for the people sort of thing. I am speaking about the he represents. democratic rights of freedom and justice that I asked the Minister for Lands a ques­ really count. tion relating to negotiations that have been This is the only chance I have of dealing going on for some time between the Towns­ with thi·s subject. All these matters come ville City Council and the Minister for under the Premier, who is titular head of Lands for the acquisition of what is known the Government and who, in my opinion, as the market reserve. The dogs are bark­ should be the actual and material head ing it in Townsville but the Minister for of the Government and should protect the Lands, early this year, on a rather appro­ rights and privileges of members of this priate date, I think-a rather bellicose date, Chamber, particularly those who are not 17 March this year-adroitly shoved my members of his own party. Over the years question aside, and again the other day we have found that we are being denied when I put a question to him he adroitly rights that are written into our Constitution shoved my question aside. and into the customs, traditions and pro­ The people of Townsville want to know tedures of this Parliament. They have been what is gomg on with their property. The slowly whittled away over the years because Townsville City Council will not tell them of the executive administration of this State. and the Minister for Lands will not tell I refer particularly to the matter of ques­ me, the elected representative in this tions, by which members of this parliament Chamber of half the people of Townsville. seek to gain information from Ministers of I claim that I am being denied information the Crown. I am not going to deal with to which I am entitled as the representative the matter that has been raised by the hon. of 50 per cent--or should I say 55 per member for Clayfield. I am not going cent.--of the people of Townsville. The into a comparison between this Parliament Minister will not tell me but when the whole and the Federal Parliament, but I want to shady deal-1 use the word advisedly-is say that we have now reached the stage completed, then, and not until then will where it would appear to me that some the representatives of the people of Towns­ Ministers of the Crown are taking sides ville in this Parliament-and that goes for with certain semi-government instrumental­ the hon. member for Townsville North as ities and are refusing to supply to members well a-s myself-be told the particulars of of this Parliament information to which the dea~ and yropositio!l put forward by the they are entitled as representatives of the Townsv!lle City Council to the Minister for people. L~n<;~s and the proposition accepted by the I recently asked a question of the Min­ Mm1ster for Lands. I think the Premier ister for Industrial Development with regard has ~n obligation and a duty to protect to the Northern Electricity Authority, and the .nghts of the private members of this I must say in all frankness and honesty Parliament. What is wrong with that? This that I got a very excellent answer from Government owns the land on which the him. He answered fairly and fully all CIVIC buildings in Townsville stand. Of the questions that I put to him and there course, it is kn?wn as a market reserve. was no hint of dissimulation. There was !'low t~e Townsv!lle City Council is negotiat­ nothing that he hid or even sought to hide mg With the Government to transfer the He told me all I wanted to know as a market reserve from Crown land to it under representative of the people. But when it a freehold title. comes to other Ministers, we strike if I The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ might use this peculiar simile, a of ho~se ber is again getting away from the Estim­ a different colour. For instance, quite ates under consideration. recently we learned to our astonishment for the first time that the Premier's Govern­ Mr_. AIKEN~: I am sorry, Mr. Hooper, ment was intending to give away to the but If you will let me finish: once the North Queensland Golf Association 143 council gets the freehold title it intends to acres of the Town Common in Townsville. sell all the buildings on that reserve. The whole deal was shrouded in secrecy. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ member to keep to the Estimates before the ber is getting right away from the Estimates Committee. He has made his point. I under discnssion. think I have been very tolerant with him . .Mr. AIKENS: I do not want to disagree Mr. Nicklin: A deal such as you are With .you, Mr. Ho.oper, but from the point talking about would have to come to Par­ of VIew of the nghts and privileges of a liament for special legislative approval. Supply [17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1539

Mr. AIKENS: It will be all sewn up, the procedures of this Parliament under the sealed and delivered, before we even hear Legislative Assembly Vote. However, in about it. Surely I am entitled to know view of your ruling and in view of the what proposal the council put forward, what attitude of the Premier, I will desist. The price it is prepared to offer, and what terms Premier's attitude surprises and astonishes the Minister for Lands is prepared to accept. me. He has been known, with considerable Surely the people of Townsville are entitled justification, as "Honest Frank" yet he is to know. The present 11 aldermen do not getting behind some of his Ministers who own these buildings. The people of Towns­ think that their main job is to protect the ville own them because in the past the nefarious schemes of certain people in this people of Townsville built them. The State. They deliberately evade questions council is prepared to give them away, or that are put to them by members of this sell them cheaply. Chamber who have a right to know the Mr. Nicklin: The Townsville City Council answers, not for any personal reasons but is an elected body. for public reasons. The Premier says that the Townsville City Council is an elected Mr. AIKENS: They will tell us nothing. body-so it is. But who can get any Mr. Nicklin: You deal with them, then. information from it? One might as well The electors should deal with them. try to get information from the Townsville Regional Electricity Board. Mr. AIKENS: The Townsville City Council is more a Star Chamber and more The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. a secret society than even this Government Campbell): Order! The activities of the is developing into. I expect the Townsville Townsville City Council are not pertinent City Council to be a Star Chamber and to this debate. I again ask the hon. mem­ secret society, but I do not expect this ber to confine his remarks to the debate. Government to be one. It is becoming Mr. AIKENS: I agree that the activities of one-that is my point. the Townsville City Council and the Towns­ Here is another thing: it is not a question ville Regional Electricity Board do not come of sale but a suggestion that this Govern­ strictly within the ambit of this debate. But ment should give the Townsville City the activities of this Government and the Council aldermen, for sale, not only valuable Ministry come within the ambit of this debate areas of land but also valuable buildings. so far as they affect the rights and privileges The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. of a private member of Parliament. I do not think anyone can deny that I am a Campbell): Order! The hon. member is private member of Parliament or that this dealing with a suggestion that is not a subject Government is controlled by the Premier and for discussion under these Estimates. I his Ministers. All I want-as a matter of ask him to confine his remarks to the fact, I think I am beating the air and I am Legislative Assembly Vote. going to finish on this point-- Mr. AIKENS: I do not know whether Mr. Bennett: You are running out of you were in the Chamber, Mr. Campbell, ammunition. when I debated this point with the Chairman of Committees. Mr. AIKENS: It is not that I have run out of ammunition, but I am up against a brick The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. wall. I am up against a conspiratorial wall Campbell): Order! I heard every word the of silence. I do not think it is in keeping hon. member said. with the true spirit of democratic govern­ Mr. AIKENS: But did you understand ment. We know, of course, that for quite them, Mr. Campbell? It would appear that a long time there has been government by again I have been hobbled and gagged in the Executive. That was the case when I my position as representative of the people came into this Parliament many years ago of Townsville South. and it is still the same today. Members of Parliament know what is going to take place The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. in Parliament only when they pick up the Campbell): Order! The hon. member is Press and read in it all the details of a Bill reflecting on the Chair. The Chair has that is to be introduced in this Parliament. decided that the subject matter of the hon. We are the last to know. Just as we have member's speech does not come within the become the last to know of the facts concern­ Legislative Assembly Vote. I ask the hon. ing any particular legislation that is to be member to confine his remarks to the Vote introduced so are we the last to know when under discussion. the Gove;nment enters into some shirt-tail Mr. AIKENS: The Vote being debated by agreement with a city council, a regional the Committee at the present time is "Legis­ electric authority, a golfing association, or lative Assembly" and the allocation of the some other body. We should be the first to money to run it. In accordance with the know instead of the last. accepted practices of this Committee it is Mr. Nicklin: You always have the last say. possible for any hon. member to debate the proceedings of the Legislative Assembly Mr. AIKENS: What is the last say? Let because money is being allocated to keep the us examine that one. It comes within the Assembly going. I am simply dealing with scope of the debate. That got you, Mr. 1540 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Campbell, before you got off the water. Do Chamber-! think it was on the Royal Com­ we always have the last say? A matter goes mission into the National Hotel, but I am to a Minister; the Minister makes his decision; not quite sure on that point-and he asked he takes it to Cabinet; Cabinet endorses it­ that 5,000 or 6,000 copies of his speech be I do not know whether this always follows­ supplied by "Hansard" but was refused. Then, it is taken to the party room, where the of course, he launched against the Govern­ rank-and-file followers are whipped into line. ment an attack of suppression and police­ Country Party members are not game to state methods, and what have you. disagree with the Premier because if they do Let me assure the hon. member for South they lose whatever chance they have of getting Brisbane that that is not new. I entered into the Cabinet. The proposal is then this Parliament in 1944 and made my first presented to this Chamber as a fait accompli. speech during the Address-in-Reply debate. The Premier cannot deny it. We never hear I wanted 5,000, 10,000, 15,000, or 20,000 of it until the whole matter is cooked and copies of that speech made available by the served up, ready for eating. Then, of course, Labour Government of the day, but my if anyone moves an amendment to it, it is request did not hit the ground. I did not not a question of the virtue or the merit of the amendment; it is a question of the old get one copy of it printed because the gang sticking together. It was so under the Government of the day, and, I assume, the Labour Party, and it is so today. When it Government Printer, had the temerity to sug­ does come before Parliament it is too late gest that parts of my speech were defamatory. to do anything about it. It cannot be I wanted that speech reprinted and I offered amended because Cabinet has approved of to pay for it. I assume that the hon. member it and the party has approved of it. It is for South Brisbane offered to pay for the merely put on the table of this Chamber as reprints of his speech. a fait accompli. If any amendment is moved Mr. Bennett: I even offered to pay for full to it, or any criticism voiced, it is smothered pamphlet copies of "Hansard'', and they still by the weight of Government members. would not grant my request. They said, ·'It will cost you £110, the same price as we Mr. Windsor: Not always. would charge anybody else." Mr. AIKENS: Always! If the bellicose Mr. AIKENS: I suppose £1 10 to a mem­ and vociferous hon. member for lthaca­ ber of the legal profession would be chicken who I have no doubt has been awakened feed. Even before I was fortunate enough from a peaceful slumber by the timbre of to win a prize in the Golden Casket, if I my voice-can tell me of one occasion when thought 5,000 or 6,000 copies of my speech legislation or any other proposal that has been should be distributed I would be happy to introduced into this Chamber has been with­ dredge up £110. drawn, or substantially amended as a result of amendments submitted by the Opposition, Mr. Bennett: It would cost vou £220 for I will be very happy to hear about it. 5.000 or 6,000 copies. I wanted only 1,500. Mr. Windsor: Speak the truth. Mr. AIKENS: If the material was worth it I would do it. Unfortunately, the hon. Mr. AIKENS: That came from the hon. member for South Brisbane is adopting a member for Ithaca. That is the hon. mem­ pecuniary and mercenary attitude. If it was ber's interjection-"Speak the truth". I am worth disseminating among the public, it the personification of truth; no-one knows was worth spending a couple of hundred that better than he. pounds to do it. To the hon. member for I have made my point. As I said, we are South Brisbane that would only be his fee being denied-and I am very sorry that the for a small brief with one refresher. Premier has concurred and condoned in this Mr. Bennett: Why differentiate between matter-information from Ministers that we the hon. member for Kurilpa and the hon. are entitled to get on behalf of our con­ member for South Brisbane? That is the stituents. Consequently, is it any wonder point. It cost him £15. that when we gather the multitude about us in the market place and tell them Mr. AIKENS: I will be quite candid. I not what we know, but only what we do not know anyone who would read any are allowed to assume, our assumption is not speech made by the hon. member for always entirely correct. Only the Premier Kurilpa, so that would be a pure waste of and his Ministers can be blamed for that money. There could be perhaps a handful incorrect assumption. of fanatical supporters in South Brisbane who would penalise themselves mentally for the vVhen the hon. member for Kurilpa was sake of reading a speech by the hon. member speaking, the hon. member for South Bris­ for South Brisbane. I really want some­ bane interjected about the right of an hon. thing done. It is a question of principle, not member to have copies of his speech of actual money. reprinted by "Hansard" so that he could buy them and distribute them among his con­ Mr. Bennett: I can tell you that these stituents or any of those who might be so people were prepared to come over as indi­ far mentally "gone" as to read them. The viduals and buy it from the Government hon. member for South Brisbane is quite Printer, but I was told they would be refused upset, and I would say naturally so, because the right to buy it. The Government Printer he wanted reprinted a speech he made in the told me that there were only six copies left. Supply [17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1541

Mr. AIKENS: Then the hon. member was of Parliament, particularly as there has been in exactly the same position I was in more criticism made in this direction both here than 20 years ago when his party was in and elsewhere. power. I know of other hon. members who This criticism ranges from expressions of wanted their speeches reprinted in pamphlet concern at the rate of growth of the form, but the blue pencil was run through executive power of Cabinet in every Par­ them. I can remember when the late Frank liament, to which the previous spea~~r has Barnes distributed, from his point of view, referred to calls for more opportumtles on a reprint of one of his very fine speeches, and the part of the ordinary member of P_ar­ on the front he had in big black lines, liament. There has even been the suggestwn "Frank Barnes is mad." Over the page it said, of appointing an ombudsman in this State "So was Edison, so was Galileo, so was to fill a gap that some people cla_im that Pasteur," and so were a lot of other people. I Parliamentarians are not, or are bemg pre­ do not know why Frank bothered to have that vented from, filling effectively. I have not speech reprinted, but it was reprinted for him time to go into the appointment of an as it contained no personal attack. In the ombudsman, although I think it is a very case under discussion, the Government, interesting subject. acting perhaps in a spirit of fairness, prob­ ably said, "If the hon. member for South All hon. members know that the hon. Brisbane wants these remarks published why member for Clayfield, for example, has been should he go to all the trouble of getting quite vocal on these matters since he entered ''Hansard" to reprint them, and paying for this Parliament. As recently as June last the them, when he could have gone into the Liberal Party Convention called for oppor­ witness box at the National Hotel Commis­ tunity for members of Parliament to "speak sion and got pages in the Press free?" That more regularly and frequently where necessary is what he should do next time-if there is on behalf of their constituents, their elector­ a next time. ates or the interests of the State." The same con~ention also sought the right for members Mr. Bennett: I might mention that I gave to ask questions without notice. The an address at the University, as you did, significance of this advocacy by the hon. at which there were 600 present, and I member for Clayfield and the Liberal Con­ received no writs for defamation arising out vention is not merely the putting forward of it. of these views, which have come from all parties at various times, but the fact Mr. AIKENS: I suppose I have been that they now come from within the ranks threatened with more writs than any other of the Government which, if it so desires, politician, alive or dead, in the British has the numbers necessary to do something Empire, but no-one has ever been game about them. enough to proceed against me. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that I shall not delay the debate any longer. the growing power of the Executive and I rose in my place to protest vehemently the frustration of the ordinary rank-and­ against the subjugation of the private mem­ file member of Parliament erodes parlia­ ber of this Parliament by the oligarchy mentary democracy as we imagine it to be. of executive government. I protest-! am If we look at this matter closely, it is sure this applies to members of the Opposi­ doubtful if there has even been as much tion as well as to me-at the actions of substance as shadow in much of the lip certain Ministers :who, for reasons best service given to parliamentary democracy. known to themselves, which apparently they The growth and ever-increasing complexity have not the courage to expose, will not-- of our economy, which necessitates Govern­ ment intervention on a greater scale even by The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. conservative governments, if that term can Campbell): Order! The hon. member is be used, has accelerated this situation. If casting reflections on members of Parlia- we go back to the 1930's, the present Leader ment. I ask that they be withdrawn. of the Opposition will be found expressing Mr. AIKENS: Very well, I will withdraw concern in "Hansard" at the growth of Cabinet and executive supremacy. Indica­ them. tions of similar concern could probably be I shall finish on this point. I have made found in copies of "Hansard" for the period my protest, for recording in "Hansard", before the 1930's. that in this year of 1964 the rights of [Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.] private members are becoming more and more restricted, and we are being denied Mr. HANLON: I was referring to the fact information to which, in my honest and that, with the growing complexity of modern considered opinion, we are justly entitled. times, we have seen accentuated the old Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (12.57 p.m.): grievance of the extension of the power of In view of the fact that there is before the Cabinet and the Executive over Parlia­ the Committee an appropriation of £210,000 ment, and over members of Parliament as to enable the Legislative Assembly to such. function, I think it is not out of place In many respects, I suppose, it is to refer to the mechanism and procedures analogous to the declining power of the 1542 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply owner over the years since the advent of democracy inside the Chamber than any of the joint stock company. The power of the the much-vaunted pressures from outside the hired manager of a joint stock company Chamber. has outstripped the real control of the shareholders, and we find ourselves, Parlia­ This is all the more reason why we should mentarily speaking, in a similar situation. endeavour to strengthen Parliament and its members, and that is why I should like to We like to speak romantically in the see the practice of the Commonwealth Address-in-Reply Debate and we promise His Parliament followed here-it has been sug­ Excellency our "careful considerations and gested from time to time, and more recently earnest endeavours", but we know that these by the hon. member for Clayfield-of pro­ rarely have as much real effect in the viding a regular opportunity for at least making of our laws, or even in the airing a limited number of hon. members to speak of grievances, as do those of our counter­ on the adjournment motion each day. How­ parts in the Caucus of the Government of ever, I do not favour the suggestion that the day, where the bread of parliamentary the privilege of speaking on the adjournment democracy is more often buttered, or, unfor­ motion should be granted in lieu of the tunately, sometimes toasted to a cinder, opportunities that are available in this State than it is in this Parliament. In theory, Parliament, but not in the Commonwealth we have in this Parliament 78 representatives Parliament, on the introductory stage of a who meet to decide democratically, by Bill. If we are to be given additional majority vote when necessary, matters for opportunities, by all means let us have them; the advancement and prosperity of our but do not let us have them at the expense State. But in very many instances-it would of sacrificing opportunities that are available be an exaggeration to suggest that it is in this Parliament but which are not avail­ done regularly, but it is done in too many able in the Commonwealth Parliament. I instances-what does happen? should say that those opportunities on the introductory stage of a Bill here have a First, there are 13 members of the Cabinet different significance altogether to what are who consider something brought to them said to be opportunities for debate on the by one of their number. On some occasions, adjournment motion and they are of valuable perhaps, it may be a recommendation by significance in the operations of this Parlia­ a departmental officer, and if the Minister ment as a democratic assembly. is a little reticent or weak, it might be something against the Minister's private Similarly, I support the call for questions judgment. He then takes it to Cabinet, without notice but once again not under the where possibly only seven of the 13 members Commonwealth system, where a Minister can of Cabinet are really in favour of it. It ask that a question be put on the notice paper then goes to the Government Caucus­ and it can stay there forever without an leaving out excursions to coalition sub­ answer being forthcoming. I do not think caucuses, where applicable-where the 13 there is much advantage in being able to get Cabinet Ministers, perhaps only seven of up in this Parliament and ask a Minister a whom, as I said, are really convinced of question without notice if he puts it onto the the validity of the measure, plump for it business paper for about six months without as if it were Magna Carta because of the giving an answer. I am not saying that some principle of Cabinet solidarity, and it goes of the answers we get are good but at least through the Caucus by 24 votes to 22. we expect to get an answer here when we give Finally, it arrives here in Parliament, the notice of a question. And so I support the home of democracy, and is opposed in a call for questions without notice but not in a division by the 32 members of the Opposi­ way that allows them to be side-tracked onto tion, but in a glorious triumph for parlia­ the business paper for months on end, as mentary democracy one Minister's prelimin­ happens in the Federal Parliament. ary doubt goes through by 45 votes to 32. How are we going to get such a change in It would be an exaggeration of the case this Parliament? It would be said, I suppose, to say that that would happen on even that it could be done by amending the Stand­ one occasion because it could be said truth­ ing Orders, but if one examines the remark­ fully that there was probably some doubt able concept of Rules of Practice that appears in the minds of some of the 32 members who to flourish in this Chamber, the Standing opposed it. However, I am trying to look Orders apparently mean nothing because we at the matter fairly, and it does happen, and are virtually told that a Rule of Practice can it happens to some extent even in this abrogate a Standing Order of this Parliament. Parliament. I think that, looking through I fail to see how that could be argued. If a the records of the Legislative Assembly, Rule of Practice can abrogate a Standing the magic of the numbers in this Assembly Order it poses the academic question, "How often makes a myth of Parliamentary do you change the Rule of Practice?" If a democracy. I think most hon. members Rule of Practice is superior to a Standing would agree that the power of the Cabinet, Order, how can one change a Rule of particularly when the principle of Cabinet Practice? It cannot be changed by Standing solidarity in Caucus is as solid as is the Order because the Standing Order is inferior principle of party solidarity in this Chamber, to it. The only way it can be changed is to is a greater threat to parliamentary get it in practice and one cannot get a new Supply [17 NOVEMBER) Supply 1543 practice because on the interpretation of strong one on which to base an argument. I practice given recently in this Parliament one am merely questioning the principle of cannot amend a Rule of Practice. Standing Orders being abrogated by Rules of Practice. Such a thing makes a mockery of If a Rule of Practice abrogates a Standing Standing Orders and Parliament. How can Order, we cannot change any Standing Order. we change these things? If we change I know that this sort of thing could be changed Standing Orders to allow questions without perhaps by resolution of Parliament or by notice, following the logic of the argument motion of disagreement or something like under the Rules of Practice questions with­ that, but I refer to Chapter VII of the Stand­ out notice still will not be allowed because ing Rules and Orders under the heading, it is not the practice to allow them in this "Questions to Members", Rule or Order No. Parliament. 68, which reads- "At the time appointed for giving Notices I do not wish to reflect on any rulings that of Motion a Member may put any question have been given; I am dealing with the of which Notice has been given to any other matter purely on an academic basis under Member of the House relating to any Bill, this Vote. I cannot understand what is Motion, or other public matter connected almost an obsession about the form of ques­ with the Business of the House." tions. One of the great values remaining in parliamentary procedure is the opportunity for That Standing Rule or Order is quite clear. hon. members to ask questions. I realise It does not mention a Minister at all. It refers that hon. members can endeavour to take to a member asking a question of any other unfair advantage of Standing Orders in member. There is no mention of a Minister asking questions, but there seems to be an but the ruling was given here that the Rule of obsession about interfering with questions or Practice says that the word "Member", the the compliance with Standing Orders as they person to whom the question has been cover questions when, in fact, Standing addressed, means "Minister" and that there­ Orders have been set aside in favour of a fore one cannot ask another member a Rule of Practice. If there is going to be question. such an obsession here as there is at present I agree that although there may be weak­ in other quarters we could have the ridicu­ nesses in the Standing Order that allows the lous situation that every time a question practice as it is at present-and I say it is is disallowed a member will rise and move allowed under that Standing Order-if it was a motion of disagreement. In trying to save implemented as it reads it could lead to a a few minutes at question time or a few situation in which unscrupulous advantage pence on "Hansard" or something else by might be taken of such opportunity to address shortening or changing questions, we will all sorts of weird and wonderful questions, by take up an hour debating the change or dis­ one member to another, many of which may allowance. We are getting to a rather silly be untrue and malicious. If it refers only to stage if hon. members are encouraged to use Ministers, why is the Standing Order not the Standing Orders in an endeavour to changed to read "Minister". In a discussion strike back at what seems to be not in the that we had on the Standing Orders Commit­ true spirit of parliamentary procedure, even tee it was said that this matter would be though it might be covered by the Standing examined by that committee and Orders. I do not want to say that in this that it was intended to change the Parliament, and under this Government, and Standing Order to read "Minister". I am under the present speakership, we have not not interested at this time in the question of had an extension of the rights and privileges whether or not the Standing Order should be of hon. members. It would be unfair not to changed to "Minister", but if it is going to acknowledge what has been done, but I mean "Minister" it should be changed to deplore the attitude of saying, "Go back to "Minister" as quickly as possible. what happened when you were in govern­ ment." I do not think that sort of thing The serious question I wish to stress is how should enter into the discussion of matters a right under a Standing Order can be abro­ in the interests of this Parliament. gated because it is not a practice to allow it to be done. If the Standing Order is there and Standing Order 70 states- allows it, I do not think any Rule of Practice "In answering a Question, a Member should be allowed to overcome it because to shall not Debate the matter to which the my mind a Rule of Practice is something that Question refers." fills a void where there is no rule provided That, of course, refers to the Minister who under the Standing Orders-where something is answering the question. I am at a loss to is not specifically set down in the Standing understand why that ruling cannot be Orders allowing for some act or other enforced. I do not want to mention any perhaps in isolated cases and situations. If particular instance, but I refer to comments there is nothing in the Standing Orders, then made in this Chamber by Mr. Speaker to the that is where the Rule of Practice comes in. effect that he has no control over Ministers A Rule of Practice grows up because when they are answering questions. That is Standing Orders do not cover a particular true to the extent that the Minister is entitled situation. I am not basing my argument on to give any answer he wishes to a question. the Standing Order to which I have referred If he does not want to answer a question, because I do not think it is a particularly neither Mr. Speaker nor anybody else can 1544 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply make him. An answer can be given only in of the time he is on his feet in outlining the terms of how the person answering it under­ nature of his question. That is a waste of stands the question asked of him. I fail to time. see why the provisions of Standing Order 70 I do not object at all to the action taken cannot be applied. It is a rather peculiar here sometimes to chastise members in some situation if we are to be told that Ministers way if they have not presented a question in do not have to abide by the Standing Orders. the manner expected under the Standing I do not think Mr. Speaker would intend to Orders. After all, if I want to ascertain imply that that is so, but it is a reasonable whether a certain thing was bought or sold assumption. When Standing Order No. 69, at a particular price, I do not think I have which rules that there shall be no debate on to tell the Minister in advance that it costs putting a question, is strictly and religiously so much. However, those are matters which enforced-and to a great extent properly are duly corrected by somebody paying enforced-against me and other hon. mem­ attention to the procedure adopted who has bers on occasions whilst Standing Order become acquainted with the pitfalls for those No. 70 is not enforced, something is wrong in authority or the hon. member himself. I with our Standing Orders. Surely it cannot have said over and over again in this be suggested that a Minister, unlike any Chamber, and I now take the same stand, other member of Parliament, has not to that we must in no way take away any of abide by the Standing Orders. If that the rights of the members of this Parlia­ occurred, it would be very unfortunate. ment, even if it means extra hours of sitting. During debates we have frequently heard That matter can be investigated, too. Mr. Speaker and the various Chairmen of The first matter I raise is the amount Comm-ittees remind Ministers of the Stand­ allowed for the Parliamentary Library and I ing Orders and I do not see why they can­ am glad that the Leader of the Opposition not adopt the same attitude to questions and and other hon. members drew attention to it. answers. We must ensure that the Queensland Parlia­ :vir. WALSH (Bundaberg) (2.31 p.m.): I mentary Library does not become a second­ rate or second-class bookshop. Books and think a little more discussion such as we periodicals are provided for the guidance and have just heard from the hon. member for assistance of members, and valuable records Baroona would benefit the House and the are made available not only to Ministers and Committee generally. I do not say that I members of Parliament but also to members agree with everything he said although no­ of the public. It is becoming an accepted one can deny the logic of his approach to practice for students undertaking a course in the procedure. I suppose we can weigh the science, technology, law, or medicine, and matter up by saying that, on many occasions, vouched for by members, to take advantage a good deal of tolerance towards members of the excellent library we have and the books is exercised by those in authority. As I have dealing with those particular subjects. Many noted, that has been the practice in this of the books and records in this library Chamber for a very long period and I hope would not be found in any other library in it will continue and that there will be no Australia. Certain reports of big institutions evidence of intolerance shown by those in and organisations are often sought. For charge of the conduct of the House during instance, the records of the inauguration and the first annual meeting of Broken Hill Pty. any particular discussion. Co. Ltd. were sought all over the world, and Sometimes we should examine ourselves the last place approached was the Queensland to determine whether we are in any way Parliamentary Library, which was able to responsible for the attitude adopted by the produce them. They were unavailable in person occupying the chair for the time any other part of Australia or overseas. being. However, I do not wish to embark on It does not look good to have less provided a discussion of the general procedure in the in the Estimates for the library this year than Assembly; it has been raised here by mem­ in previous years, especially when it is bers on the Government side and no doubt expected to be kept up to the standard set in the proper committee will meet in due the years that have passed. course to consider new ideas which, I hope, will be of some benefit in the future to Having regard to the statements already discussions and the rights of members in the made, I think the time has arrived for the Chamber. It is sufficient for me to say that provision of facilities to enable members to I hope we will not hear too much about an interview in a proper manner constituents acceptance of the practice adopted in the who have particular problems which should Commonwealth Parliament in respect of not be discussed in front of numerous other asking and answering questions, because members. Instead of our having to talk to there is so much waste of time in the pre­ people out on the open balcony, proper amble given by members in the Federal facilities should be provided. That brings me Parliament before they get to the question. to the suggestion that the library should be The introduction of that practice in this better housed than it is at present. Assembly would cause a very serious I know that these things develop pro­ deterioration in our procedure. Quite fre­ gressively over the years and, as the hon. quently an hon. member asking a question member for Baroona said, the person con­ in the Federal House takes up 75 per cent. trolling the House has made many extensions Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1545 under various headings for the comfort of the argument advanced justified the ~x~ra members generally-not that everything is expenditure. If it was a case of p~ov1dmg by any means perfect at present. a facility for strangers who com.e. mto the House for various purposes-political cam­ I feel that I would only be exercising my paigning or any other purpose-let us say so, rights as a member to speak on a subject that because we will then have a chance of has been referred to earlier, namely, the arguing against it. Nor do I accept the state­ availability of "Hansard". It is sufficient for ment that the House is thrown open now me to say that it is a publication for which any more than it was under Labour Govern­ Parliament is responsible. It is a privileged ments to enable people who are interested to document and, whatever happens after it come in and view Parliament House and the leaves here and passes into the hands of Parliament itself. There may be much more another department, members have the right political campaigning going on within the to direct attention to weaknesses in the dis­ building; but I know, as the Premier does, tribution of an official document containing that extensive parties were given here by the proceedings of this Parliament. former Premiers, who invited business people, I am sorry that the Treasurer is not pre­ trade-union officials and many other people sent; perhaps there may be an opportunity to get together in a spirit of good will on to deal with this later. Much was those occasions. said about the spending of a considerable Of course, it is becoming difficult to amount of money to improve the work of accommodate the children who visit Parlia­ this department. So far as members are ment House. Mr. Speaker finds it more and concerned, I think that, in spite of that more difficult to restrict the demands of expenditure, we are much worse off. One members who wish to bring school children may find at the end of a copy of "Hansard" to the gallery and enable them to witness part of a speech by a member or Minister the proceedings in this Chamber. and one has then to look at the next issue to find the concluding portion of the speech. To give another instance of how loose f do not think that indicates any degree of the control of the general surroundings of efficiency, particularly when one considers Parliament House can get, I should like the money spent and the boast made that to invite any hon. member to go downstairs an efficient organisation would result from and count the number of motor-cars parked such a huge expenditure. acros-s doorways giving access to the build­ ing. On previous occasions I have invited The hon. member for South Brisbane can hon. members to go downstairs and count speak on this any way he likes. All that I the number of access points on the northern emphasise is that copies of speeches side of the building that were completely should be made available to members in unobstructed for use by a member or a any numbers they desire, provided they put visitor who wished to enter Parliament their orders in within a stipulated time, House. I think the only one now instead of having a lot of wastage stored in unobstructed would be the main entrance to the department. the building. If one went down beside the f now wish to speak about facilities pro­ room used by members of the Liberal vided for members. Earlier I spoke of mem­ Party, probably one would find two cars, bers being denied the use of facilities pro­ bumper to bumper, parked right across the vided for them. That matter has been dealt entrance to that end of the building. I with, and I can no longer complain about it. do not suppose I can complain very much My only complaint now is that we are, as about members of the Liberal Party doing it were, still out in the bush. Irrespective that, because something similar is being done of the Government in office, I do not want at the other end of the building. When I any strangers coming to this House and investigate to see whether they are right taking away from members what should be or wrong, what do I find? I find the regarded as their rights. It was stated at actual parking places, marked out and the time that the facilities to which I refer numbered, giving them the right to park were provided for members of the staff. If their cars across the entrance. If there that is so, this is a shocking waste of public is to be only one entrance from the northern funds. My only hope is that the department side, the main entrance, instead of two or concerned will not apply this line of thinking three, one from Alice Street, where the generally throughout its organisation. The general public come in, and one where the facilities referred to were provided for the Ministers come in, let us understand that. female staff of the House. As such facili­ To me the number of cars parked in the ties were available within 10 or 15 yards, ground-s are making the place look more at the foot of the steps, and at the most three and more like a used-car yard and taking people would be affected, there was no reason away the right of members and visitors why that facility should have been taken to free access to the building. There again, from members. However, as the extra hon. members have a responsibility to see convenience has been provided, I have no that their cars do not block the entrances complaint. As I raised this matter before provision was made for the new facility, completely. I do not suppose I -should be my complaint stood till that time. All I complaining about this, because I have not wish to say now is that I do not feel that a car. 1546 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

These may appear to be small matters, and I am not going into the reasons for grant­ but they are all intrusions on the rights ing them, but I do not want propaganda to of hon. members. I doubt whether one get out that those increases are in any way would find in any other Parliament in Aus­ applicable to members of this Assembly. tralia the same provision for the parking of cars in the yard as one finds here. On Hon. D. E. NICHOLSON (Murrumba) some occasions a double line of cars is (2.54 p.m.): I have listened with interest to parked in front of the building, and if a what the Leader of the Opposition and other P.M.G. vehicle pulls up and double­ hon. members have said regarding the parks there is virtually no room Estimates of the Legislative Assembly and in for a person wishing to drive his car along some instances I believe that the hon. mem­ there. Other Government vehicles are parked bers concerned have put forward some here on occlL'iions, and on one occasion I examples in respect of which improvements saw a ministerial car parked right across could be effected. the main entrance to the House. I should The Leader of the Opposition, in his open­ have thought that at least the driver of ing remarks, gave credit to the administrators that vehicle would have known better. of the House for the alterations that have been made with a view to increasing the comfort Those are the little things that may be of hon. members. On behalf of the members criticised despite all the good things that can of the Parliamentary Buildings Committee, I be said. There is much that can be said for thank him for his kind remarks. The members the management of the House that certainly of that committee held a number of meetings does credit to those whose responsibility it is when it was first decided to alter the Chamber. to make the decisions, and the Government Not only did they hold meetings but they should not be altogether denied credit for the invited the opinions of many hon. members, finance that has been made available. Even some of whom are now offering criticism of so, we want to see this place run just as what has been done. We did have some exclusively as the Queensland Club, which has diversity of opinion about the V.I.P. seating. parking for its own members. But what would According to the Press it was brought back­ happen to a non-member who went in there wards and forwards to Parliament House no without having any right to be there? fewer than five times. I would not say it was All in all, I feel that this is the occasion to five times, but it could have been four times say these things. Indeed, it is almost the only before we were satisfied that it met the occasion on which anyone here with any requirements of a Legislative Assembly, in experience of Parliament would feel justified other words, before it met the requirements in offering comments about the procedure, of the most important House in the State. conduct and management of the House. The Leader of the Opposition privately Undoubtedly the average member dislikes has spoken very kindly about the various embarking on such a discussion under other alterations and the amenities provided for Estimates. It could be done, of course, but hon. members. He said today that he was I think this is the appropriate time. not very happy with the colour scheme. That WlL'i given a great deal of thought by I notice that provision for accident insur­ the Department of Works in conjunction ance for members has gone up from £557 in with the Parliamentary Buildings Committee 1963-64 to £1,184. Probably that is a result and myself. of the extension of air travel-more trips and more risks. Mr. Duggan: I do not want you to get the impression that I am unhappy about it. At the same time, salaries are not provided for in this section, but in the other section, Mr. NICHOLSON: I concede that. The and they do not come in for discussion now. point is that it was felt at the time-I However, I am afraid the public have the think there might be something to it, too­ feeling that what they call the "salary grab" that colour has a strong psychological effect of the Federal Parliament, has application on the minds of people. Having these sub­ here. I think it might be a good thing to dued colours could have the effect of have in black and white, and circulated to the subduing the tempers and temperament of public, a comparison of the facilities, salaries members of the Assembly. It does appear and allowances of Federal and State members. to have worked that way because hon. mem­ It might open some eyes. bers seem to be much happier than they were under the former conditions. Members With all the talk about salary increases, it of this Assembly engaged in work for the might be as well to put it on record that State State, just as much as executives in big members have had only one increase, of business, should have the best working con­ £148 per annum, since 1955-there have been ditions that we can provide under the cir­ increases in allowances and so on, but if the cumstances. Press and others who continually harp on increases in politicians' salaries were made to The acoustics of the Chamber were understand that there has been one lousy criticised by the hon. member for Kurilpa. increase of £148 in the salaries of members of I personally have made many inquiries of this Parliament since 1955, I am sure the the "Hansard" reporters about the acoustics public at large would be surprised. I do not since the Chamber was altered. Invariably begrudge the Federal members their increases they have told me that there are only certain Supply (17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1547 people whom they find difficult to hear. It is number they require and asking the girl on my opinion that the Chamber does lack the exchange to get it for them. If each some of the acoustics it previously had in member had a phone with a dial on it he that there is not the same bounce in the could say, "Will you give me a line, please?" walls or in the Chamber itself because of the Members could do this particularly if they subduing effect of the extra furniture. Hav­ had a number of calls to make. When a ing had some experience in acoustics and line is made available they can dial to their sound reproduction, I have gone into this heart's content all day long. matter very thoroughly. During the recess Mr. Windsor: We miss the phones that I trust that provision will be made for the used to be down here, along the side. installation of additional loud speakers at various points throughout the Chamber to Mr. NICHOLSON: I am glad the hon. lift the sound, but not so that it will be member mentioned that point. Provision is unbearably loud. The main feature of sound being made for four extra phones to be reproduction and sound reinforcement is to placed on the balconies. We are now wait­ have a number of speakers strategically ing for the Department of Works to placed so that a person's natural voice is build the boxes to house them. An extra conveyed to every corner. phone has been provided in the Library. However, that will not overcome the prob­ Today the building is literally bristling with lem posed by members who do not wish to telephones compared with four or five years raise their voices when speaking, particularly ago. I believe hon. members have a right to those in the rear part of the Chamber. these amenities. That is why they are Members look down when reading questions provided. or notes of speeches, consequently their I will pass over the remarks of the hon. delivery is affected. I should say that perhaps member for Townsville South. In his com­ some of the blame placed on acoustics of the ments he apparently used his time once again building could well be placed on the member to vent his spleen on the poor old Townsville who is speaking. City Council and the Townsville Regional Electricity Board. The hon. member for Kurilpa also said that there was a need for more amenities for Mr. Duggan: Would you care to make a hon. members, particularly with regard to brief comment on the supplying of more interviewing rooms. He also referred to the money for books in the Library? matter of telephones. I think that hon. members who were in this House in the Mr. NICHOLSON: Yes. I intend to reply 1950's, in particular, will agree-and I know to the remarks of the Leader of the Opposi­ that all hon. members of the Opposition tion and the hon. member for Bundaberg agree on this-that the amenities provided on that subject. for hon. members today are reaching the I think the hon. member for Baroona, in stage at which most members are becoming his opening statement, put up a good case for satisfied. The Buildings Committee has plans the abolition of the party system of politics in mind for the provision of extra cubicles under which most things in politics today are for interviews. There are places in which done on a party line. little interview cubicles can be put around the building, but after all we are limited by The Standing Orders question is very the finance that is available for these things. involved, and would require a lengthy dis­ As all hon. members will agree, Rome was cussion. I do not want to deprive the not built in a day, and we cannot do all these Premier of some time in which to reply to things on the one budget. Interview cubicles what has been said in this debate. We have and new furniture have been provided in an all-party committee to discuss Standing committee rooms. Every hon. member now Orders and any amendments that are thought has a telephone on his desk. This is a facility to be desirable. Most of the matters men­ that has never previously existed in the tioned by the hon. member for Baroona have history of this House. I think a telephone is been considered by the Standing Orders a very necessary amenity. Admittedly, all Committee on other occasions. I might say hon. members have not a dial attached to that next Thursday the Standing Orders Com­ their phones; they are only on a link line. mittee will meet again, and rather than go into an involved and lengthy discussion at In the past there has been some criticism this stage I think the submissions made by of the switchboard operators because hon. hon. members could be considered at that members cannot get their numbers when they meeting. want them, or cannot get connected quickly enough. Perhaps hon. members could assist The Rule of Practice the hon. member in this respect. The habit has unfortunately spoke about has been established by past grown whereby hon. members pick up the custom. There are many Rules of Practice receiver-I might say they have been spoilt which we apply in the House and in the in the past-and say, "Will you get me Chamber that are not written in the book. Mr. Johnson in the Department of Primary They have been established by past custom. Industries?" I think all hon. members could Past Speakers and past Governments have help the switchboard operators greatly-they applied those Rules of Practice, and I do could also help other hon. members who may not feel that and Rules of Practice or any be waiting for service-by ascertaining the Standing Orders have been applied in this or 1548 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

the previous session of Parliament which There have also been donations of books. were not applied by other Speakers or other We do not want, by having sufficient money Chairmen in the past. We are all governed made available to buy everything needed, to by the book of rules. I well remember the discourage the very fine people who make words of Lord Dunrossil, who was Speaker donations to the Library. Donations totalled of the House of Commons as Mr. William 3 7 6 books and 134 pamphlets, and under the Morrison. When I was Speaker Designate I Libraries Act 37 books and 14 pamphlets had the honour of meeting Lord Dunrossil, have been received. This year 1,132 new who said, "What do you think is the most books and 166 pamphlets were received, important thing for Mr. Speaker to know?" bringing the number of books and pamphlets I said, "Well, firstly he should know the in the Library at 30 June, 1964, to 92,784. Standing Orders." He said, "That is quite I believe that to be rather a good record for correct. What do you think is the next most a library that is short of storage space. important thing?" I said, "To be able to The Librarian and his staff have, as hon. interpret them with common sense." He said, members know, always been very pleased to "That is one of the most important assist in any manner they possibly can. things." Rules are made to be applied, Good use has been made of the photo­ but if we stuck strictly to the book of rules copying machine that was installed, and very this would be a rather drab Assembly. We good copies are obtained from it. If a must of necessity have elasticity in our pamphlet or paper is not available, members rules. We have had a fair example of that find it very convenient to have a copy made today in the speech of the hon. member for of an article in which they are interested. T ownsville South. The machine is there for the convenience of Both the Leader of the Opposition and members, and the Library staff are only too the hon. member for Bundaberg referred to happy to assist. the Library. It must give hon. members, The hon. member for Bundaberg once particularly those who use the Library for again raised the old story of the provision of research work, a great deal of satisfaction facilities for what he termed "strangers". I to know that the Queensland Parliamentary dealt with that subject once before and do Library is second to none in Australia. As not propose to go over it at any length now the hon. member for Bundaberg said, it is exceot to correct his statement that at the ·•ften used by outsiders. The only point we time- when he raised the matter the other can grumble about is the lack of storage facilities were not provided. space for the books we have. I do not Mr. Walsh: No, before. They were not know how we can possibly overcome it. there when I raised the matter with mem­ Storage facilities now in the process of being bers of the committee before Parliament altered have been made available to us. met. That is for the storage of books now accommodated in what is called the old stable Mr. NICHOLSON: When the hon. mem­ building. Provision will be made for the ber raised the matter in the House, he had storage of other books that are not needed not previously raised it with me. When he frequently. Special shelving will be provided, raised it in the House the facilities were but the building itself is not what could be provided, and it was only when he was told where they were that he actually found termed desirable for the storage of books. them. Difficulties with termites and other things, which will necessitate fumigation, are being Mr. Walsh: They were put there the week experienced in the old stable building. before the Assembly met. It cannot be denied that in all respects Mr. NICHOLSON: Exactly, and on the Parliament House is bursting at the seams. morning on which the hon. m~'mber raised In a building designed over 100 years ago the question he did not know before 10.45 to accommodate 26 members, I think we that the facilities had been provided. Unfor­ are doing pretty well to squeeze in 78, plus tunately, I told him, otherwise he might have additional staff, without any annexes. still maintained that hon. members were being The staff of the Library has been increased deprived of some amenity. since the Government came into office. I The hon. member also criticised the dis­ join the Leader of the Opposition in saying that the Library is one section of Parliament tribution of "Hansard". He mentioned that in which expenditure should not be reduced. in some instances speeches are cut in halves, I do not believe that £1 of the money one half appearing in one "Hansard" and allotted for the Library has not been well the other half in the next issue. I investigated spent. Books purchased are usually very the matter, which has been raised previously, well chosen. I know that the Leader of the and I found that invariably if a person gets Opposition is an avid reader of both fiction a proof copy of "Hansard" No. 22, say, and and fact, and takes a delight in using the reads it completely, No. 23 is then in his Library facilities. Altogether there has been postbox and it is merely a question of considerable expenditure on new books. "Continued in our next". There is a mark Purchases last year covered 719 books and on the front of the proof "Hansard" to 18 pamphlets. indicate that it is a continued volume. Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1549

The hon. member for Bundaberg also said I suggest that apparently there was not very that he did not believe in waste and that he much discussion about the Ministers' seats, did not think members should be allowed to because they are much less comfortable than order copies of "Hansard" if they were late the seats provided for private members. in ordering them, after the print had been Even though they may not be quite as com­ set aside. That is why the present method fortable as private members' seats, I suggest of printing "Hansard" was introduced. It is there will not be any lack of applicants for now all printed on one sheet. Previously positions on them. the proof "Hansard" was printed, the type References have been made to improve­ was set aside, and it was then brought back, ments to the House but I do not think there re-set and re-read, and the bound volumes of have been any to the vast improvements in "Hansard" were printed. the grounds. I refer particularly to the Mr. Walsh: I was speaking of the ones gardens and the lawns associated with Parlia­ that members may want to purchase privately. ment House, which have become quite a feature of it in spite of the fact that, through Mr. NICHOLSON: The principle now is age, we lost several of the very fine trees that that proof "Hansard" is printed, and at the used to grow in front of the building. The same time sufficient additional sheets are planting of shrubs and improvements in the printed and stored for the bound volumes of lawns as a result have made a vast difference "Hansard". This has saved many thousands to its appearance. This has been commented of pounds and a great deal of labour at the on favourably by visitors. The conception of Government Printing Office. I have looked the rearrangement of the gardens in front of through half a dozen or more "Hansards" Parliament House fits very nicely into the and on only two occasions have I found that redesigning of the Botanic Gardens opposite an hon. member's speech has been broken. and together they have become a feature of a On both occasions the hon. member has city. mentioned it to me and I have told him that Members have discussed briefly the library if it is in, say, No. 22, "Hansard" No. 23 is facilities of the Parliament. I think it is the in the person's postbox by the time he has desire of all hon. members that we should finished reading No. 22 and it is merely a have the best library facilities possible, and matter of continuing on to the next copy. we have here the best reference library in The hon. member also mentioned the Queensland. It is used extensively by hon. parking of cars in the grounds of Parliament members and by outside organisations and House. He said that the parking of cars people, who obtain references that they could across doorways may inconvenience hon. not otherwise obtain in this State. members or visitors. I have seen some very untidy parking, even though there are painted Mr. Walsh: The whole of the history of lines showing members where to park. Cars Queensland can be got here. have been parked straddling lines with one Mr. NICKLIN: Exactly. One of the worst car taking up the space where' two cars features of the set up of our Parliamentary should be parked. I think it should be left Library is that we have to put away some of to the conscience of members in parking the lesser-used parts in the old stables, where their cars to make room for their friends. they are not so readily accessible as the Hon. G. F. R. NICKLIN (Landsborough­ more-read books. Someone did mention the Premier) (3.18 p.m.): The Vote under con­ fact that there had been a reduction in the sideration is that for the Legislative Assembly. Vote for the Library. That is so, but it is Much of the debate that has taken place has interesting to note that there has been no been relevant to the Vote; some of it has reduction in the Vote for the vital part of the been only remotely relevant; and some has Library, namely, for new volumes. The same been entirely irrelevant. However, that is amount of money has been provided on this what one expects and what usually happens occasion for this purpose as was provided last in a general debate of this type on Estimates. year. I should like to refer to one or two matters l should like hon. members to note also raised by hon. members that were not dealt that in recent years there has been an increase with by Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the in the staff of the Library and, as a result, Opposition and several other hon. members facilities for members and others using the referred to improvements made to Parliament library have been greatly increased. One hon. House in recent years. I think all hon. member mentioned, in comparison, the library members appreciate the fact that it has been attached to the Commonwealth Parliament in possible to make money available not only Canberra. Unfortunately, we cannot match for the necessary and urgent repairs but also the luxury at Canberra. They seem to have an for additional improvements such as the new unlimited budget for these things whereas our seating arrangements in this Chamber. Budget inevitably has to be very closely Speaking about the seating arrangements, scrutinised, and in some cases pruned where Mr. Speaker mentioned that an endeavour we do not like to prune it. But I can assure had been made to get the most comfortable hon. members that the greatest amount of seats for all hon. members and that, to this money possible will be provided for the end, there had been a good deal of consulta­ Library each year. Last year we provided tion between the Department of Public Works for some improved filing facilities and and the Parliamentary Buildings Committee. improved copying equipment which it will not 1550 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply be necessary to provide this year, and that In the short time left at my disposal I amount of money will now be available for should like to make quick reference to the additional books or for whatever may be rather absurd claim of the hon. member required. for Townsville South that the parliamentary system as conducted in this Chamber is The hon. member for Kurilpa mentioned leading to the subjugation of the private air fares provided for members of this members. Have you ever heard such arrant Chamber. nonsense? Private members have excellent Mr. Walsh: He should give us tram fares opportunities to express themselves at any in exchange. time they like. The hon. member for Townsville South has all the privileges of Mr. NICKLIN: Unfortunately, our gold this Parliament, and he abuses them more passes are not as good on the Brisbane trams often than any other hon. member to make as they are on Sydney trams and in other himself heard. Ministers of the Crown can­ places in Australia. not be made the vehicle for a private ven­ detta of the hon. member for Townsville I should like to emphasise that the provision South against the Townsville City Council. of air fares is designed to enable country If he wants to get information, why does he members to get backwards and forwards not go to the members of the Townsville between Brisbane and their electorates during City Council and find out from them? They the time the House is sitting. Over the years are an elected body and they have their there has been a progressive increase in the responsibilities. Ministers of this Parlia­ amount of air fares made available. I think ment are not going to be the vehicle for a country members appreciate this because it private vendetta by hon. members of this means that they can keep a close link with Chamber. their electorates while the House is sitting. Metropolitan members and members repre­ I have one other reference to make about senting nearby country areas do not have the the rights of hon. members. In any com­ same need for air travel because they can get parison of the rights of a private member backwards and forwards by other means of in this Chamber with those of private mem­ transport. Although the Government would bers in the Commonwealth Parliament and like to be able to provide money for hon. other State Parliaments, by no means do we members to take trips around the State to see run last. Our members have greater oppor­ the great development that is taking place, I tunities than their counterparts in most of feel that if, during the parliamentary recess, the Parliaments in Australia. I hope that they used their gold-pass facilities and our will always continue. If possible, we will give modern rail services, they could visit various private members greater opportunities than parts of the State without any great incon­ they have at the present time to take part venience or discomfort. in the conduct of this Parliament. Mr. Bennett: You would have to walk to VOTES PASSED UNDER STANDING ORDER some places now that you have pulled up No. 307 AND SESSIONAL ORDER the branch lines. At 3.30 p.m., under Standing Order No. Mr. NICKLIN: The hon. member for 307 and Sessional Order agreed to by the South Brisbane always tries to introduce House on 14 October, the questions for the irrelevant subjects. No branch lines have following Votes were put by the Chairman been pulled ug in areas where great develop­ and agreed to--- ment is taking place in Queensland. In fact £ s. d. we have under consideration the building of Legislative Assembly 210,214 0 0 another branch line that will be of great Premier and Department service to this State. I see the hon. member of State Development 741,148 0 0 for Port Curtis smiling broadly. Department of Health 18,100,173 0 0 Department of Justice 1,841,846 0 0 By the use of his gold pass every hon. Department of Labour member should be able to get to the very and Industry 8,751,684 0 0 many places where things are happening in Department of Lands 1,779,231 0 0 Queensland. Department of Local Mr. Lloyd: How much a fortnight do you Government, Irriga- think it would cost an ordinary member tion, and Forestry 1,835,415 0 0 going through the State using his gold pass? Department of Railways 42,030,000 0 0 Department of Transport 385,809 0 0 Mr. NICKLIN: Whether he wants to use Department of Works his gold pass or travel by plane, he still has and Housing 2,826,661 0 0 to eat and sleep. It does not cost anything Department of the to sleep on the train. I suggest that he Auditor-General 190,215 0 0 plan his trip wisely and well. I suppose that Trust and Special Funds I use the railways of this State to go to Estimates, Balance of various parts of Queensland more than any­ Estimates 58,283,318 0 0 one else in the Chamber, even though it Loan Fund Account might be in a carriage attached to the end Estimates, Balance of of a goods train. Estimates 23,327,000 0 0 Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1551

Supplementary Estimates £ s. d. The North Queensland Golf Association (Consolidated Revenue), has asked for 136 acres of this fauna reserve 1963-64 5,721,716 15 0 for a golf course. I hasten to assure all hon. Supplementary Trust members that I am not against golf clubs. and Special Funds They, in common with other sporting clubs, Estimates, 1963-64 3,274,951 6 0 have their rights in the community. If other Supplementary Loan sporting clubs can be assisted by the grant­ Fund Estimates, ing of leases of land not part of fauna 1963-64 2,377,928 3 reserves, I have no argument with such Vote on Account, action. I emphasise, however, that I believe 1965-66 52,000,000 0 0 it to be very wrong to make an incursion into the Town Common by way of lease. SEVENTEENTH ALLOTTED DAY-RECEPTION OF Mr. Walsh: Was it a sanctuary before? RESOLUTIONS Mr. TUCKER: Yes, certain parts are a Resolutions reported and, on motion of sanctuary. The district fauna survey has in Mr. Hiley, received. fact mentioned that birds listed in "The Birds of the Townsville District, North ADOPTION OF RESOLUTIONS Queensland" came from here. Many of the The Resolutions being taken as read- birds inhabiting the area are unique in the dry climate round Townsville. A naturalist's Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­ report that I have shows that there are in Treasurer): I move- this sanctuary or fauna reserve birds such "That the Resolutions be now agreed as ibises, brolgas, and many others known to." throughout the world. They live in this area in an unspoiled natural environment. There Honourable members indicating a desire are scrub areas in which there are high to discuss certain Resolutions- trees, swamp areas on the fringe, and then a Resolutions 1 and 2 agreed to. great deal of open country. I believe that the whole area should be a reserve or a Resolution 3-Department of Primary sanctuary. Tourists who come north and are Industries- driven through the area comment on the fact Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) (3.40 that many hundreds of brolgas, ibises, p.m.): In the 1963-64 Annual Report of the wading birds, and other birds, are seen Department of Primary Industries reference there feeding quietly within what one might is made to fauna and flora conservation, descrlbe as gunshot distance of Townsville. and the fact that in certain districts fauna Many naturalists have come to North reserves have been completed. Mention is Queensland to study these unique birds and, made of the fact that district fauna surveys on returning overseas, have written about of a detailed nature were commenced, and this particular area outside Townsville, which that an annotated list of "The Birds of the has received world-wide publicity. I do not Townsville District, North Queensland" was say that lightly, because I have made avail­ published during last year. able to the Minister for Lands evidence that That brings me to the burning question in people from overseas have referred to the area and the flora and fauna in it as Townsville of the excision or lease of certain unique. I have made available to him land from the sanctuary or reserve, as it is cuttings not only from newspapers published called in Townsville, known as the Town in North Queensland but also from news­ Common. During the last few months I papers published in other parts of Australia. have protested at the granting of a lease of I draw the attention of the Minister for portion of this land to the North Queensland Primary Industries to the area this afternoon Golf Association. I feel that I should again because I believe that this is an enroach­ protest at the excision or leasing of land in ment upon this reserve or sanctuary, as this fauna reserve area. I like to call it, and, if it is whittled away, an area of great beauty outside Townsville The passage in the Annual Report of the Department of Primary Industries to which I will be lost. have referred shows quite obviously that the That is the background to my argument. Minister and his officers are very concerned Golf clubs or other sporting clubs should about fauna reserves in Queensland. I be granted leases if they can be assisted believe that to be a good thing, and am in this way. I have no argument against quite in agreement with it. This fauna that. However, in this instance the area reserve is unique in not only the Townsville is unique, and once 136 acres is leased area but possibly the whole of Queensland to the North Queensland Golf Association and, indeed, Australia. This is therefore and a golf course is constructed, it is certain more than a mere matter of the leasing of that some species of flora and fauna will be an area by the Department of Lands; the eliminated. I know that the President of the Minister for Primary Industries and his North Queensland Golf Association has said department must be interested in the gradual that there will be no interference with the whittling away of this reserve outside Towns­ natural foliage and cover now existing, but ville, known as the Town Common. I reject that suggestion. It is not possible 1552 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply to build a golf course without removing a In the interests of the flora and fauna in great deal of the natural undergrowth and the area, I am trying to enlist the aid of the cover that provides a feeding ground for Minister for Primary Industries in my many of the birds that I have mentioned. endeavour to stop the granting of a lease to I could spend half an hour listing the types this association. I do not care who or what of birds and animals that inhabit the area the association is, whether it be a golf associ­ and, of necessity, over 136 acres many of ation or a car club. In either case I would the trees that provide natural cover for have been very much against the granting of these birds and animals must be destroyed. this lease, not because it is a golf club or a The construction of the golf course will rob football club, but because I believe we are them of their feeding grounds. doing a very wrong thing that is against the interests not only of the present citizens of The main point that I wish to make to Townsville but of those who will be citizens the Minister for Primary Industries is this: in the future. Somebody has to be prepared that if the lease of this 13 6 acres is to stand up and speak out against this sort of granted, it will make an incursion into action and to ask that these sanctuaries be this unique area. As I said once the lease saved for posterity. is granted to the North Queensland Golf Association, I cannot see how the Minister I have stood up and given my opinion on can refuse an application by another sporting this question and many people have looked club for a further area of the Town sideways at me and said, "Wait until the next Common. Although the Minister for Lands election and we will get at this bloke." I am has said that each application will be dealt not afraid to speak out in an effort to save with on its merits, I cannot see how he this attraction for posterity. As I say, it is could. reject an application from, say, a unique in Townsville and if we start by grant­ sportmg car club for 150 acres or from ing a lease of 136 acres for this purpose the a football club for a further 150 acres. Minister will have on his doorsteo another There must inevitably be further incursions application. It will then be pointed out to him into this area, which should be a ·sanctuary that as he was prepared ·to grant the golf or reserve for some of the unique birds association's application for 136 acres, he can and animals in North Queensland. hardly reject an application by another sport­ ing club for 150 acres, or whatever area it It i~ useles~ for anyone to argue with me may require. on this questwn. I concede that the point may. be. put forward that perhaps further To my mind, it does not matter whether apphcatwns would not be granted, but if this is only a small area or whether there will they ':'er~ not, then the first thing that could not be a large incursion into the feeding grounds of these birds and animals. The point be s~u? IS that t~e Government is favouring ~ pnvileged few m the community by grant­ is that the Minister is setting a precedent and mg them a lease and the right to construct a that precedent will ultimately gobble up the golf course on that lease. If others ask for whole of the Town Common. He will not be the same privilege their request will be able to stop it. As I say, if he did, it would refused. It is all right for the Minister to say be claimed that he was granting something to that he would not grant further areas of the a privileged few which he was not prepared to Town Co~mon to other sporting associations grant to the whole of the Townsville com­ m Townsville. Once he creates this precedent munity. he will sound the death knell of the Town If the Minister has not already put this c.ommon and of this unique gathering of deal through, I make a final plea for the birds and flora which has received world-wide fauna and flora in this area. I ask him not recognition. to grant any lease over the area, no matter what association is involved. I hope the When tourists come to Townsville we take Minister for Primary Industries and the them with pride to this area and show them Minister for Lands, who are sitting together, thes~ bir~s-cranes, brolgas, and many other will see the logic of my argument. There are wadmg birds. I thought of another a moment many who would back up my argument. I ag':, a unique bird called the jacana bird, make this last plea that the area known as which can be seen there in its natural habitat. the Town Common in Townsville be spared; If the Minister is prepared to grant this that there be no incursion into it by any club lease for 20 years there will be a great deal or association whatever. of money spent on the area. The argument Mr. COBURN (Burdekin) (3.55 p.m.): has been advanced that it must be a very During the debate on the Estimate of the valuable area because allotments beside it Department of Primary Industries I made a have sold for up to £1,500 each. I am not rather ardent plea concerning the growing of going to pursue that argument. Possibly this Government-certified crops of hybrid maize 136 acres of land may be very valuable but and sorghum in the Burdekin area. In his I am arguing for the flora and fauna and the reply the Minister kindly made reference to incursion into an area where we have an the request I made of him, pointing out the attraction that is acknowledged to be unique. difficulties associated with the supervision of Naturalists from all over the world have been such crops. to see this area and have written stories of Mr. Walsh: There is no land. It is all what they have seen. assigned for cane-growing. Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1553

Mr. COBURN: That is the point. Previ­ Rumsey Northern Seeds Pty. Ltd. will be ously most of the Government-certification able to deal effectively with the cleaning and scheme had been limited to growers in dusting of the seed. Southern Queensland because the greater In view of the possibilities of the project part of the demand for such seed was south and the great advantage to be gained from of the tropics. In addition to that, there was the production of the seed in North Queens­ no suitable seed-cleaning and dusting plant land for growers in the northern area, par­ established in the North. Things have changed very substantially since those times ticularly on the Atherton Tableland, I hope because Rumsey Northern Seeds Pty. Ltd. the Minister in his wisdom will give favour­ have established a very modern plant for able consideration to establishing this cleaning and dusting seeds in the Ayr dis­ certified-seed-production scheme on the trict. Mr. Rumsey told me in a conversa­ Lower Burdekin. tion that his firm co-operates very closely Hon. A. R. FLETCHER (Cunningham­ with the officers of the Department of Primary Industries and receives the greatest Minister for Lands) (4.1 p.m.): As the hon. help in return. I might mention that Mr. member for Townsville North referred to the Rumsey is an expert in seed production. His possibility of the golf clubs getting a special company has been engaged in the production lease over part of the reserve at Townsville. of seeds for a very long period. The I do not think I should let the opportunity experience of his employees has made them pass without giving the House some back­ experts in this field. He suggested that suit­ ground facts of the matter. The hon. mem­ able selected hybrids for the district would ber painted a rather alarming picture and be Texas 610 hybrid sorghum, G.H.128 and sought to imply that it was something unique. other suitable hybrid maize, including the I think he used the word "unique" 17 times new rust-resistant hybrids when available. in relation to the bird life up there and the Mr. Rumsey claims that, if we could develop danger of it being destroyed. This is an these types of seeds, they would have a area of about 9,000 acres and in conformity marked effect on the production of maize on with usual practice when a large area of ·the Atherton Tableland. Crown land is close to a centre of popula­ tion, and certain members in the area like The Minister's argument in rebuttal of to play golf, the policy of the Department what I have put before him was that the of Lands-not only in the time of this supervision of the production of these certi­ Government, but also in the time of pre­ fied seeds would be very difficult. I brought vious Governments-is to take the view, this to the attention of Mr. Rumsey and he "Why hold this out from any human use for is of the opinion-and I agree with him the time being? Why not allow a body such entirely-that, with hybrid maize, 10 acres as a golf club the use of it on condition that, of each of the two varieties could be a as soon as it is needed for expansion in the starting point and, with hybrid grain sor­ area, it has to be handed back.'' That is ghum, 25 acres each of the two varieties precisely what has happened. The treatment could be a starting point. I do not think of Townsville has been exactly the same as these four crops would be beyond the of other areas all over Queensland. The capabilities of the existing staff at Miliaroo approach has been, "Here is some land. and Ayr. Nor would they be beyond the You are not using it; why not let us play extent of suitable land available for the pro­ golf on it? Give us a special lease entitling duction of these crops. We have two very us to play golf on it for the time being. As fine, well-equipped and well-staffed research soon as the expansion of the area demands stations at Ayr and Millaroo. There would its use more intensively, you will have the be ample suitable land available, and ample right to take it back." That will be the staff also, for the production of these crops nature of the special lease. It will be for a under proper supervision. The Minister very term of years but it will be possible to take kindly arranged for me to have an interview it up on six months' notice, without com­ with one of the officers dealing with these pensation, to put it to a more intensive use. matters. I have not yet availed myself of that opportunity because I was in communi­ As to the destruction of bird life, I do cation wit~ Mr. Rumsey, who, i.ncidentally, not think anyone in the House is more brought thrs matter before me m the first keenly alive than I to the necessity of main­ place, and I wanted to get his reaction to taining our flora and fauna. I do not believe the Minister's reply to my speech before I anyone is more keenly appreciative of what did so. birds and animals mean to the people of Queensland; no-one enjoys looking after We hope that, for the sake of North them and cherishing them more than I do. Queensland and for the sake of these indus­ I have a small sanctuary of my own, which tries which will become great and impor­ I most sedulously keep from the depreda­ tant industries in North Queensland, the tions of the public, so far as I am able. V\'c Burdekin will be selected for the growing should be the very last to agree to anything of hybrid maize and sorghum. It will mean that would seriously jeopardise the well­ a considerable saving in freight for the being of any valuable birds or anima!:l in farmers in North Queensland, amounting to any area. However, this 9,000 acres .is not 12s. or 14s. a bushel. We must give earnest very well maintained at the moment. I consideration to the matter. In addition, think the look of the place will be improved 1554 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply and that the area will be improved as a support from the members of this House who, habitat for some of the birds and the animals in a larger sense, represent the same people. there because quite often in a natural state My experience here has been that the Towns­ an area of land deteriorates and the rubbish ville City Council has only to say something takes over so that the area is not a very for it to be violently disagreed with by some­ fruitful source of vegetable food for birds one in this House. and animals. If a golf club takes over a place The granting of this lease will not set a and cleans out a good deal of the under­ precedent that will damage anybody. It has growth, leaving a lot of trees, and makes and been done before. It is true that every case fertilises lawns and introduces legumes, it is treated on its merits and that we have greatly improves the place from its onginal taken back an area from a golf club because, state from the point of view of giving life with the passing of time and expansion in and sustenance to birds and animals in the the area it serves as a recreation facility, it district. is necessary for it to relinquish the area and On the evidence of several letters I have go further out. Golf clubs need a lot of had from residents in and around that area land for members to hit a golf ball about --one received only yesterday-they are just and it is reasonable to expect them to move praying for the day when this will happen out following expansion in the area in which because this untidy place, in the words of they operate. I think it can be reasonably the lady who wrote the last letter, harbours held to be a good principle. We are taking a great deal of "fauna" in the shape of only 127 acres out of 9,000 acres. There mosquitoes and sandflies, and she named a will be many trees left there, and it will be a few others, such as bandicoots that get into much prettier place. The hon. member for her garden. She said that she hoped I would Townsville North can take it from me that, not be deterred by irresponsible people who when he takes the next lot of visitors out were claiming that by taking a little out of there, they will see more than his unique it we would spoil an otherwise attractive birds; he nominated only about three of area. I honestly think this will improve the them, and each time they were brolgas. In area. my experience, brolgas are not as unique as some other birds that I could mention. Next The people who run the aerodrome have time he goes to see the "unique" brolgas, been bedevilled and worried by birds. They he will probably be able to show those with have even had to go to the extreme of him an orderly and well-tended set of greens destroying birds in some cases for the sake and fairways and, if he is honest, he will of the safety of the aeroplanes. One had a probably come back and say, "The whole near-accident because a curlew was sucked thing has turned out for the best. Even the into the jet engine. This is a worry to them, birds are now getting a better place to feed, and they would welcome any action that with the fertilised greens and fairways, than would take the centre of the bird population with the tangled rubbish that was there before further away. Other people up there think the golf course was established." People at that a bird sanctuary can be established and the aerodrome are going to be happier because maintained on this area. There is still almost they will no longer have to shoot birds to 9,000 acres, but it should be further away allow aircraft to operate safely. They hate from the runways. I will be helping them having to do this. and pushing for them because I think it is an excellent idea. Mr. Tucker: The aerodrome is at the other end. I do not think it was fair of the hon. member for Townsville North to jump onto Mr. FLETCHER: It is not far from this the bandwagon of the hon. member for area. According to the lady who wrote to me, the mosquitoes will be tremendously Townsville South in his general policy of improved. disagreeing with everything that the Towns­ ville City Council has to say. (Opposition laughter.)

Mr. TUCKER: I rise to a point of order. Mr. FLETCHER: I do not mean that the The Minister, in that last statement, has mosquitoes will be bigger and better; I grossly misrepresented me, because it was I mean that they will be farther away and will 'who made the original representations to him, have a mile or so to fly, instead of a few not the hon. member for Townsville South. hundred yards, before they become a nuisance. Mr. FLETCHER: I am sorry. I misunder­ stood who hopped on to whose bandwagon, Mr. Tucker: Does that mean that you but apparently it is only a matter of mistak­ have already granted the lease? ing a bandwagon. In any case, they are Mr. FLETCHER: It does not mean any­ both on the bandwagon. If the Townsville thing of the kind. I think, however, that City Council says anything, it has to be it should be granted, and it probably will be. wrong. I deprecate the idea of their not I shall not make any apologies for granting working in more harmoniously with the civic it because I think the hon. member will fathers in the area they come from. I think it come back and compliment me on doing is a pity that the councillors do not get more something to improve a piece of land that Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1555 already has considerable attraction but needs although I am not sure of that. The point I cleaning up and will, when this is done, wish to make it that it must be profitable to display a more presentable face. build a cannery for only those two seasonal Mr. Campbell: It will be comparable with fruits. However, I shall have more to say Victoria Park in Brisbane. about that later. Certain European countries grow large Mr. FLETCHER: It could be just as quantities of cider apples; but, in additiOn, attractive as Victoria Park. The only things considerable quantities of table apples may be that should stop it, according to the hon. processed. For example, large quantities are member for Townsville North, are the processed in Western Germany and Switzer­ "unique" brolgas that he wants to parade land, as they are in Italy, particularly in years before visitors. of export difficulty. Queensland could face a similar difficulty this year because a very Mr. Tucker: You are being facetious now. small percentage of the crop will be suitable Mr. FLETCHER: Perhaps I am. I for export. apologise and withdraw it. I will not be In the United Kingdom, canning and other bound to allow every application for the lines of manufacture are estimated to use use of this area. This is an example of the about 20,000 to 35,000 tons of table apples appropriate use of land while the area annually, and, in addition, about the same around it is expanding and being put to quantity of table culls may be taken by cider more intensive use. manufacturers. It is not necessary to grow a particular type of apple for either cider or Mr. McKECHNIE (Carnarvon) (4.13 manufacture. The point has been made at p.ni.): On Monday night, 2 November, a times that the damaged culls cannot be treated severe hailstorm hit the Granite Belt, con­ because a special type of apple is required, but siderably damaging apples that were then it is customary in the United Kingdom to use about the size of marbles. I stress damaged culls in processing. "damaged" rather than "destroyed" because Last year the Golden Circle Cannery at the crop was then still rather thick and Northgate processed about 1,400 tons of would have required some thinning. I am apples. It is very pleasing to note that it is concerned not so much with the apples estimated that in the current year the cannery totally destroyed as with those damaged. will process 2,700 tons, made up of 1,200 tons People in the area estimate that up to 70 for concentrated juice, 500 tons for canned per cent. of the crop was damaged. I juice, and 1,000 tons for pie pack. The import­ again stress "damaged", not "destroyed". ant point is that the concentrated juice is made A deputation from the Stanthorpe Cham­ from badly damaged apples, and I hope that ber of Commerce came to Brisbane and, the Golden Circle Cannery may be able to with me, interviewed the Minister for Prim­ treat a greater quantity of apples for juice ary Industries on Thursday, 5 November. concentrate. It is planned at the moment to These gentlemen were considerably perturbed treat 100 tons a week for pie pack, and I about the general economy of the district, think this quantity could be increased. Mature and had this in mind rather than repre­ Granny Smiths must be used for the pie pack, senting the interests of growers which, and although in the current year some may be of course, include the interests of the slightly damaged, they are quite good apples. district. The deputation submitted proposals The price has been raised by about £5 a ton, to the Minister, and I appreciate his telling to £28 per ton delivered at Northgate, them that he would look into the matter and to attract growers, and if the cannery his subsequent sending of special officers processes 2, 700 tons, as expected, at to the Granite Belt to make an investigation 45 cases to the ton that will be 121,500 cases of the extent of the damage. out of a total production of 1,500,000 to 2,000,000 cases. The point I wish to make is Preliminary reports indicate that the that that represents only 8 per cent. of the damage is not as severe as was originally total production, and the figures that I quoted estimated. The point I wish to make is earlier show that Canada processes about that the damage nevertheless is still con­ 20 per cent. and the United States of America siderable and that the damaged fruit still about 30 per cent. of their total crops. on the trees is fruit that should, in the That brings me to the argument that in a normal course of events, be processed. normal year at least 20 to 30 per cent. of the In recent years, about one-quarter of the Queensland crop should be processed. This total crop in Canada has been disposed of to would take from the market hail-damaged fruit-some hail damage is to be expected processors, while in the United States of every year-and also take other fruit that may America the proportion has been as high as be damaged in other ways or affected by dry one-third. The proportion of Australian crops weather, or undersized or other second-grade manufactured remains at about 10 per cent., fruit that depresses the value of first-grade and the proportion in New Zealand was fruit on the open market. At the similar until the Apple and Pear Board opened same time, the Committee of Direc­ its own cannery in the 1962 season. I assume tion of Fruit Marketing is sending an that it processes only apples and pears, officer onto the Granite Belt in the coming 1556 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

season to check on bruising, which is a prob­ Mackenzie. On that visit I found that the lem with apples for pie pack. In these bulk Department of Irrigation and Water Supply lines that it is intended to use this season, the had planned the scheme before 1958 and C.O.D. is endeavouring to find out what that the land had been advertised by the causes the bruising. Actually, I feel that the Department of Lands. Farmers and other ultimate must be a cannery at the source of primary producers from as far south as supply, but in the meantime I am happy to Victoria came to Queensland on the strength see that the C.O.D. cannery is going ahead of the advertising of, and at the invitation and almost doubling the quantity of apples of, the Queensland Government to engage in treated last year. the dairying industry on land that was sup­ posed to be eminently suitable for that I trust that when the Minister has had a industry. Costs were incurred by the early complete survey made of the damage on the settlers so that an irrigated industry could be Granite Belt, he will think it desirable commenced. Charges were imposed for that a further increase be made in the water by the Department of Irrigation and amount to be processed at Northgate. As I Water Supply. Again, charges were imposed said earlier, I stress that even in what is for flood mitigation works. No investigation considered to be a normal year we have to was carried out by the Department of find some way of getting at least 20 per cent., Primary Industries to test the soil to deter­ and preferably 30 per cent., of these apples mine the suitability of the land until it was off the fresh fruit market. too late. By that time many of the settlers As much as we do not like it, it may be had spent most of their money only to find necessary for a direction to be issued by the that they could not work the land because C.O.D. in normal years to see that a con­ it was completely unsuitable for the purpose siderable quantity of second-grade fruit is for which it had been prepared and adver­ drawn off in order to maintain the market tised by the department. I am raising this at a reasonable level. I wish to draw the matter now because it is almost nine months Minister's attention to the need, in every since I communicated with the Premier year, for processing to be increased from the about it and discussed it with other depart­ present proposed 8 per cent. to a 20 per ments. I consider that there has been far cent. or 30 per cent. proportion. Specifically too long in which nothing has been done. in this year, when hail damage, although not We were accused of being neglectful of the as heavy as originally estimated, is very con­ interests of the settlers in the Clare area siderable, more fruit should be processed. which was opened up under the War Service Land Settlement Scheme. In the early days Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (4.22 p.m.): Over of that scheme the settlers found it to be an the past few years we have been rather economic proposition but with the effiuxion accustomed to the Government, and to of time other elements came into it and it Ministers in particular, claiming credit for was found to be completely uneconomic. natural development that has taken place in Queensland. We seldom hear the accent Mr. Ewan: It was never economic, and placed on some of the worst features of you know it. their administration. Mr. LLOYD: I am not defending anything The question that I am raising at present that may have occurred in the first settle­ does not concern the Minister for Primary ment. What I am attacking at the present Industries directly as Minister but it does time is the neglectful manner in which this concern the administration of his depart­ Government treated a number of settlers for ment, particularly that of the Department of whom they were responsible at Gibber Irrigation and Water Supply, and, in some Gunyah. On the advice of officers of the ways, the Department of Lands. department they settled on land that was The Minister's department has made a completely unsuitable for growing anything. report on a land settlement scheme at I accept responsibility for anything that Theodore-at a place called Gibber Gunyah may have been done in the days of the -which scheme was commenced by the Labour Government. This was planned Labour Government prior to 1957. The first when the Labour Government was in settlers were placed on the land in 1958, and power, but it has been carried on by the since then continuous complaints and queries present Government. At the present time, have been raised in regard to a matter which eight years later, it is almost impossible for I believe should have been given more these people to earn a reasonable living on urgent attention by the Government. It was not my intention to raise this matter in the the capitalised cost of settling on that land. House. I have more consideration for the Some of them are able to do so but most of settlers remaining there, those who have been them are not. Many have sold their pro­ able to remain on the land and engage in perties at no more than it cost them origin­ the dairying industry, but I made a visit to ally, which means that they have walked out the area as Deputy Leader of the Parlia­ with nothing. They owe nothing to the mentary Labour Party in Queensland, at the Agricultural Bank, but at the same time they invitation of the settlers, although it is in have nothing to show for eight years of had the area represented by the hon. member for work. Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1557

It is the responsibility of the Government be even more improvements. In the past. to do something on behalf of those who while the Brisbane Market Trust has been have been settled on that land. The Govern­ in operation, there has been a rather rigid ment should provide some compensation to application of policy concerning many these settlers for the years of hard work they facilities provided. I am concerned today have put into the land. With the restricted about the country-order merchants, who have areas it was not possible for many of them operated for many years. They were trans­ to make a reasonable living. About five ferred from the old markets site to the new years ago the Minister for Lands visited the site; there are about seven of them. They area. At that time he cut up more land to are all in the same category but three, give each settler an additional area. How­ who apparently have been operating in con­ ever, the additional land was not particularly junction with merchants in the markets area. suitable and, in many cases, the dry area The other four or five have not been con­ was 20 miles from the wet area. The wet ducting their operations in this way. Quite area, previously known as the green swamp, recently the Brisbane Market Trust provided was found to be unsuitable for growing any­ for these people a small property outside thing. In wet weather it becomes completely the markets area which they were supposed flooded and goes sour. to use for storing, packing, and marketing. The sandfly menace alone would make the This area is completely unsuitable. I wish place unsuitable for dairying. Immediately the Minister would examine the facilities after rain the sandflies are so bad that it is provided for them. Normally I would not necessary to burn smoke fires all night. On be greatly concerned about them but I am behalf of these people who are endeavouring concerned in this instance as these merchants to make a go of it I have been trying to get provide a specialised service for many some decision from the Government for country towns. They hand-pick fruit and nine months, but we cannot find what the vegetables so that they will be in first­ Government intends to do. class order when they arrive at their destination. The facilities provided are detri­ Mr. Smith: Why was it developed by mental to this service which has been Labour in the first instance? given for many years. The Minister should examine this question personally. I realise Mr. LLOYD: If it was possible for a that he has raised the matter of the Brisbane Labour Government to take action it is Market Trust. If he were to make a close possible for this Government to make some examination of the markets he would pro­ provision. I am accepting whatever respon­ perly understand the problems that exist. sibility the Labour Government may have had, but I am not accepting the responsibility The next matter to which I wish to refer for the failure of this Government in 1957 concerns hon. members representing areas and 1958, when the Department of Primary in the northern suburbs of Brisbane and the Industries should have conducted soil tests inability of consumers to secure supplies of before the settlers were allowed to go onto fresh fruit and vegetables at all times. It the land. In 1957, 1958, and 1959 there is not possible for the markets to be opened was a continuous flow of advertising about before 7 a.m., and no doubt a retailer or the suitability of these properties as dairy­ shop-dropper, after getting his supply of ing lands. The scheme was perpetuated. fruit and vegetables, would not leave the At present the Government is continually markets before 7.30 or 8 a.m. He would changing from one basis to another until then become entangled in the mesh of traffic the settlers do not know what its policy is. in the city, and as a result, would take a It is about time the Department of Primary long time to get to the north-western areas Industries advised the Minister in charge of of Brisbane. In many cases the supply is the actual position, and it is high time that not available early enough for many house­ the Department of Irrigation and Water wives. That applies particularly on Fridays, Supply or the Premier helped the settlers when housewives require their fresh fruit and to alleviate some of their problems, either vegetables early. At present, a disability is by giving them other land or by granting imposed upon the consumer, particularly them compensation for the capital cost of the housewives in the community. their investments. They went to the area Some decentralisation of the markets because the department gave an assurance organisation so that depots can be established that it was suitable for dairying. They have in different parts of Brisbane might over­ since found that it is quite unsuitable. If come the difficulty. That would not neces­ the Government had taken the proper action sarily mean interference with the supply of in 1957 and 1958 and conducted soil­ fruit and vegetables coming from country investigation tests, this position would not areas; but depots would be established for have arisen. the purchasing of a good deal of the fruit I now come to the matter of the Brisbane and vegetables required in the north-western markets. The new site has been favourably suburbs. It is an intriguing suggestion which received by the public. It has been a great could be explored. advantage for growers, wholesalers and We know that in the past many retailing retailers in many ways, and in all probability, and wholesaling businesses in and around with the construction of new roads for better Brisbane received supplies of fresh fruit and access to and from the markets, there will vegetables direct from the grower. They 51 1558 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

then entered into a wholesaling and retail­ On the Sydney market a different ing business, and in that way provided some approach is used. Inspectors there stick service to the public. I think that the rigidly to the test standard prescribed by Brisbane Market Trust could interest itself the New South Wales regulations. Grape­ in this busi~ess practice, which would give growers in Queensland become very con­ g_reater service to the commum,y, and pos­ fused when they find that grapes returnl-d Sibly provide the consumer with a cheaper from the Sydney market as unsuitable for commodity. sale meet with a ready sale on the Brisbane There would be no necessity for bulk market. The Minister may be able to buying as there is at present; facilities could indicate if any progress has been made in be provided for part purchasing. In other negotiations between the two States on grape words, if small business people in the standards. suburbs want one case of tomatoes or one I witnessed a demonstration of mould case of lett_uce, which probably is all they control in grapes that had been treated for would sell m a day, the facilities would be sterilisation against fruit-fly infestation. It available for them to do so through the appears that early experiments in the use organisation of the Brisbane Market Trust of various chemicals in the control of mould in suburban depots, and a supply of fresh when crops are stored under cold-room fruit and vegetables would be immediately conditions to treat them against fruit-fly available to the public. attack have been very successful. This raises the question of whether the Minister Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (4.38 is now in a position to negotiate with his p.m.): I have a few brief comments to make counterpart in Victoria on securing the entry on this Vote. They were prompted mainly of Queensland grapes to that State. To by an opinion expressed by the Minister for my knowledge, Queensland grapes at present Works and Housing some time ago when are not allowed into Victoria because of addressing the Australian Vegetable Growers' the fear of fruit-fly infestation. Federation. He claimed that- The report of the Department of Primary "At the present time it was almost as Industries reads- difficult to send commodities interstate as "Investigations with Muscatel, Purple it was to export them overseas, partly Cornichon, and Black Hamburg grapes because of variations in grade standards stored in polyethylene liners showed that and container specifications from State to effective mould control can be obtained State." by the inclusion of small amounts of potassium metabisulphite in the liners. A In my electorate there is a rather flourishino pre-consignment treatment of 14 days at grape-growing industry which is beset by th~ 30 deg. F. for sterilising fruit against fruit problem of varying standards throughout the fly resulted in no fruit injury, but an States. The Sydney market is the main source efficient mould inhibitor should be of export for Queensland grapes. However, included in the package to control mould m Sydney there are differing specifications development." and standards from those in Queensland. It appears that there has been success in Year after year grape-growers in the sterilising crops against even the possibility Richlands area are faced with the problem of the transmission of fruit fly by the sale that they are met with a particular standard of fruit. and a particular test if they send their pro­ duct t~ the Brisbane market, and they are I feel that perhaps the Minister might be met With a different standard and test if able to indicate whether he will enter into they send the product to Sydney. The con­ negotiations with the objective of enabling ditions in New South Wales are far more Queensland grapes to be sold on the Vic­ rigidly applied than the common-sense torian market. Being unable to do this approach in Queensland. If my memory presents quite a problem in Queensland. s~rves J?e correctly, the test for grapes is Growers are forced to send their grapes nme pomts on the Baume scale. In Queens­ to other markets because there would be a land, because of varying conditions the considerable glut if the entire grape crop growers find it difficult to attain' that was put on the Queensland market, and s!anda;d. of J?a.turity in certain years. Some growers would be unable to receive a reason­ times 1t IS Withm a few decimal points of the able return for their labour. The Minister standard required in Queensland. On these may be able to indicate whether he is occasions inspectors of the Department of prepared to negotiate with the Victorian Pnmary Industries adopt a common-sense authorities on this matter, and also what approach and apply the palatability test. progress has been made in reaching stan­ Although the grapes do not perhaps meet dardisation between Queensland and New the standard laid down by the Act, if agree­ South Wales in the marketing of grapes. ment can be reached among a certain Another matter to which I think I should number of inspectors, the fruit is allowed to refer was given some prominence in an be sold on the Brisbane market if it is article that appeared in "The Courier-Mail" considered to be, in the main, perfectly on 3 November, 1964. It deals with fruit marketable. I have no real quarrel with that and vegetable sales at the Rocklea markets procedure. and the ban on the selling of small quantities Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1559 to the buying public. As there seems to be birds congregate there, particularly when considerable confusion in the minds of many water is plentiful. I also know the Mt. St. people, perhaps the Minister would make John Zoo, which is a large area set aside a statement that will clear the matter up. for commercial purposes, and it, too, has a The article to which I referred earlier very large congregation of native fauna. said- However, I am reliably informed that an area will be set aside in Townsville for a "Restrictions. introduced on September further reserve for animals and birds. I J 4, specify that loose vegetables (excluding agree with the Minister for Lands that a potatoes, onions, and pumpkins) cannot be golf course, properly constructed with all sold in lots under 14 lb. Most other amenities, trees and green grass, would be a vegetables have to be sold in their original very attractive place for the preservation of containers." our native birds. For the life of me, I It went on to say that agents were concerned cannot agree with the hon. member for that, on this occasion, they would be left Townsville North that setting up a golf club with considerable quantities of vegetables on will chase the birds away. their hands because of the restrictions. One agent is reported to have said- Mr. Tucker: The general public cannot use that course. "If we don't sell the stuff, it is left on the floor and you have to throw it away. Mr. Lloyd: You reckon they get birdies Then the growers don't send you any more." on a golf course? The theme of the article seems to be that the Mr. ROW: They do get birdies on a golf agents have not been able to clear the matter course. up and that the Chairman of the Brisbane Market Trust has said that the question of In reply to the hon. member for Towns­ minimum amounts is for the agents' organisa­ ville North, I think the birds will be pre­ tion and not for the Trust. served. There is a gun club not far from this area and the birds get so quiet in reserves For some years when the markets were at that it is impossible to disturb them. My Roma Street, it was quite a common sight, own view is that a golf course is an ideal particularly on Fridays, to see members of place for birds to congregate in a place the public going to the markets and buying of safety. I can assure the hon. member small quantities of fruit and vegetables. that I will make all sorts of investigations This served quite a useful purpose, because, to ensure that that area of Townsville, which firstly, people obtained fruit and vegetables I know so well, will have a place set aside at reasonable prices and, secondly, agents for the preservation of wild life. I have cleared their stocks and fruit and vegetables already had discussions on the matter with did not deteriorate over the week-end and responsible citizens of Townsville and steps then have to be dumped. As far as I am are being taken by damming certain places. concerned, dumping of fruit and vegetables to see that a greater area is made available is a shocking waste of good food, and I for the congregation of native life. think the matter should be cleared up now. The article in "The Courier-Mail" of Mr. Tucker: Don't you feel that once this 3 October said that one of the reasons people application is granted it will be hard to gave for flocking to the new Rocklea markets refuse others? was that, as many retailers were adding a fantastic mark-up of 75 per cent. to 100 per Mr. ROW: That is so, but, as the Minister cent. to wholesale prices, they were for Lands said, there are 8,000 acres of endeavouring to buy fruit and vegetables at land there. reasonable prices. According to the article, Mr. Tucker: Much of it salt-water. the agents say that the Brisbane Market Trust is to blame; the Market Trust says Mr. ROW: Much of it is salt-water, but it is a matter for the agents. I think the we can declare another area there as a Minister should make a statement and clear sanctuary. That is what I have in mind. I the matter up completely. In my opinion. have made investigations and I am sure members of the public should be allowed to that we will be able to get an area there go to the Rocklea markets and purchase fruit that will adequately compensate for the area and vegetables, if they so desire, as they did the golf club may take. I know the area at the Roma Street markets. well and it is very desolate, particularly in the dry season. I am not a golfer but I Hon. J. A. ROW (Hinchinbrook-Minister think a golf course would be a means of for Primary Industries) (4.49 p.m.), in reply: beautifying the area. First, I should like to thank my colleague the Minister for Lands for entering the debate The hon. member for Burdekin mentioned on the question of the preservation of the hybrid maize and sorghum and the testing Townsville Town Common, which was raised and cleaning of seed by Mr. Rumsey. I by the hon. member for Townsville North. hasten to assure him that I have a very I assure the hon. member that the preserva­ high opinion of the Rumsey method of tion of reserves for Queensland's flora and cleaning and testing seed and every effort fauna is one of my first considerations. I will be made to amplify this process, par­ know quite well the area to which he referred, ticularly in the interests of seed improve­ and I am aware that large numbers of native ment in North Queensland. 1560 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

As I said in the debate on the Estimates opportunity to have a look at the place where for the Department of Primary Industries, they operate outside the markets area. I we are now on the way towards finding understand that these people want only a a rust-proof maize on the Tableland. Our small amount of space-about 250 to 300 latest tests are very conducive to thinking square feet. I suggested to Mr. Murray that that we have at last solved this very difficult perhaps their conditons could be improved, problem. Of course, it is a little too early particularly by the provision of awnings. to say with any degree of certainty that There is nothing there at the moment and the that is so, because varieties change and sun beats in. It must do a lot of damage to seasons change; but it looks as though we perishable commodities such as lettuce. I might have discovered a hybird maize that assure the hon. member for Kedron that I will be rust resistant. have discussed this matter with the chairman of the Market Trust and I have reason to The hon. member for Carnarvon spoke believe that steps will be taken to improve at length about the necessity for the North­ the conditions under which these people are gate cannery to engage in increased process­ packing their goods. ing. Of course, we get hailstorms in the Granite Belt and other areas almost every The matter of small depots in the northern year and statements are made without full suburbs of Brisbane is something that thought or deliberation on the matter. They will have to be explored by the Market Trust. are sometimes inclined to be exaggerated.· I spoke to a number of the buyers and distributors and I understand that they are The last estimate I had from my depart­ very happy about the present set-up. The mental officers in the Granite Belt was that, buyers told me that for the first time in their from an examination of a cross section of lives they are able to get home and have one-third of the farms, about 6,000 tons of breakfast with their wives. There is no longer apples are marked by hail. I suggest that any congestion to cope with; they can move perhaps the sectional group committee, about freely. They can park in the centre through the Committee of Direction of Fruit area and when they have bought their goods Marketing could make representations to they can back their trucks in, load them up Northgate cannery for an enlargement of its and get away. They are nearly all gone by canning facilities. As was indicated by the half-past-eight. It is a different set-up alto­ hon. member for Carnarvon, it is intended gether from the old markets. Of course, there that that be done this year. Of course, must be some anomalies-they are only to be there will have to be some guarantee of expected at the beginning. They will be all continuity of supply. ironed out eventually. I think the possibility The hon. member for Kedron mentioned of depots in other areas should be explored the Gibber Gunyah area. There are quite a by the Market Trust if the need arises. few similar areas in Queensland which were The hon. member for Salisbury mentioned an inheritance from the previous Government. grape standards and the marketing of grapes That, of course, is no answer to the assertion that we as a Government should have done in Victoria. We are still negotiating with the Department of Agriculture in New South something to improve the conditions of those Wales for a uniform interpretation of maturity settlers. We have done so at Clare, Millaroo standards. I believe we are getting some­ and Dalbeg. There are several places in the where, but with Victoria it is a different State-I speak of Mt. Larcom in particular­ where in the past areas were surveyed and matter. cut up into portions too small for economic Mr. Sherrington: Has New South Wales farming. That is what happened at Gibber indicated that it is prepared to adopt uniform Gunyah and Mt. Larcom. I believe that steps legislation? will have to be taken to improve the lot of these people. It is a difficult problem. At Mr. ROW: Not yet, but I think that State Mt. Larcom there has been an aggregation of may be weakening a little. farms. People on the better farms have bought the smaller farms, and with their larger Of course, Victoria is a horse of a holdings they are doing better. But there are different colour. Preventive measures are still many settlers on small areas. applied most stringently to fruit coming into that State from a fruit-fly area. We are still Mention was made of the Brisbane Market exploring what can be done to provide a Trust and the country buyers. One day last clearance for grapes consigned to Victoria by week I went out to the markets at 6.30 a.m. the use of a cold-storage treatment. I hope and spent about two hours there. I was that we may burst through this problem, with particularly interested in these country buyers. great satisfaction to all concerned. I believe that there are nine of them-three in the markets and six outside. I was inter­ On the matter of agents selling small quan­ ested in their conditions. As far as their opera­ tities of fruit and vegetables, when I was at tion in the markets is concerned, they are the markets I was given to understand that regarded essentially as buyers; they buy for it is purely a matter for the agent ~o det.er­ the country areas. I understand that they mine. I was told that agents are agam selling must operate under the same conditions as small lots; it is purely a matter for them to the ordinary buyer of vegetables. They cannot determine. I do not think there is anything start before 7 o'clock. Anyhow, I had an more for me to say. Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1561

Resolution 3-Department of Primary areas, it is more costly, and other factors Industries-agreed to. are involved. Many people say that after Resolutions 4 and 5 agreed to. finishing work at 5 o'clock or a little later they cannot possibly get to Coorparoo by Resolution 6-Department of Education- normal public transport in time to start a Mr. HUGHES (Kurilpa) (5.2 p.m.): In course at 5.30. Some of them on meagre discussing this Resolution, I have some par­ wages cannot afford a taxi. The opinion ticular comments to make although I do has been expressed that these classes should not intend to canvass all the services pro­ not commence before 6.15 or 6.30, which vided by the department. Firstly, there are is the most convenient time for people to some problems concerning the evening arrive to commence study. tutorial classes which are presently conducted Then they would not finish until 9.30 for the benefit of south-side residents and or 10 o'clock. That raises a social problem. other residents of Brisbane at the old Many of them would leave the outer colleges Trocadero, the building to the right in at that time and then have to travel to other Melbourne Street near its junction with Grey parts of Brisbane. Parents have expressed Street. On certain nights of the week classes concern about people of tender age having are held there and many young people to do this. Young people from good homes attend to further their studies for the Senior having the interest of their parents, are doing examination. Because facilities are avail­ this study-instead of leisure time it is study able large numbers of young people are time-for their own advancement, as well as taking advantage of the opportunity to the advancement of the city and the State. further their education and conditions are They are quite good young people. We know somewhat cramped. that in our society today there is a hooligan element, and it is within our knowledge Mr. Murray: The building is shabby. that cases coming before the courts are Mr. HUGHES: As the hon. member for causing a great deal of concern. I am not Clayfield has just said, they are some­ prophesying anything, but these things includ­ what shabby facilities; they are out of ing assault do happen, and our young people date. No doubt they served their purpose have to face this hazard to which they are not over the years and helped to cope with the accustomed, with its embarrassment and tidal wave of births in the post-war period. inconvenience. If the matter is reconsidered, No-one can deny that it is a shabby building, could something be done with the and I have some suggestions to make for the Trocadero? Could it be given a facelift and Minister's consideration. a coat of paint? Could the inside be torn out and refurnished in a manner that would I understand that the Minister considers allow it to meet the needs of south-side it is not in the best interests of the com­ students? munity to continue night courses at the Mr. Davies: Have you asked the Minister Trocadero in the New Year and I under·· for his opinion? stand that classes there are to cease, and other buildings will be provided for the Mr. HUGHES: I have asked the Minister students to continue their education at Kelvin for his views. I feel it is something that Grove and the Coorparoo High School. should be aired, and I hope it will be Many youngsters on the south side-where reconsidered. If something can be done the Trocadero is situated-are taking maths at the Trocadero, it will be to the advantage and English. The classes commence at of many students. 6.30 p.m. and continue until 9 p.m. The If not, can another convenient place be transfer of the classes to their new location found? What about the West End State will create some difficulty to students in School? Although I am speaking of the south getting there on time and will also place side, the same line of thinking should apply an additional burden on their purse. One young student told me that it will to the north side. We must have a school on the south side and it should be as conveni­ cost 4s. each evening to get to and ently situated as possible. Because of the drift from the Coorparoo High School. That of people from the inner areas to outer is 8s. a week out of that student's pocket suburban areas, many classrooms of the West and it is quite a sizable amount to be paid End State School are not now in use. The by young typists and other young people Brisbane State High School in Gladstone who have just commenced employment and Road has been used by evening students, and who, through initiative, are continuing their I feel that it is ideally situated. Day-students studies to better themselves. The Minister could review the question of the location and usually leave things in their desks, and the use of the classrooms in the evening may the continuation of night courses. It would not only meet the demands of our young cause some inconvenience but there are ways people, but it would ease the strain on their around all difficulties. It is only a matter of purse. applying common sense. This school is both convenient and suitable for evening classes Although some aspects of conducting for young people. It has recently had classes at the old Trocadero are not con­ improvements carried out, quite apart from venient, its location is convenient. If the provision of the assembly hall; additional students are required to go to the outer classrooms have been provided, and the school 1562 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply is now a credit to the Minister for Education. Probably the Minister is less concerned I believe the facilities provided there could about criticism than anyone else, because I well be used by students attending evening think he has shown that he is able to deal classes. with it very effectively. If hon. members If the high school cannot be used and a in this Chamber put forward their points primary school in the inner suburban area of view constructively and objectively, I am which is not using its accommodation to the hopeful that some good will come from full cannot be used, thought could be given to the discussion. the running of a bus, or a series of buses, to To put the matter a little more specifi­ meet the needs of those requiring such a cally, questions have been asked as to whether service. I feel that the Government might even a particular mathematics paper was fair consider subsidising bus transport to the 'and reasonable, and as to whether failure on schools, or providing a free bus service for the part of students to answer the questions young students. They are not attending even­ in it were due to a lack of education in, and ing classes without making sacrifices. They are study of, the particular subject at schools. using their initiative, and they deserve some On one hand, it has been suggested that minor form of subsidy. It must be agreed that students were not prepared to a sufficiently these young students are, in the main, those high standard to sit for the paper; on the who desire to better themselves and succeed. other, a question has been asked as to If that were not so, they would not be whether the Maths. II paper was properly sacrificing their spare time in a day and age set to test the knowledge of the students and when the accent seems to be on pleasure. They whether similar papers set in the past have are the type of person that the State needs, been too easy. and I believe the State would receive a fair return from any concession granted them. The Mr. Hanson: The Minister is anxious to State could well consider a subsidised-bus­ take away from the university the right to transport scheme for taking students to and set papers and give it to the department. from North Quay or King George Square to the outer suburban areas if that is where Mr. HUGHES: I am not speaking about evening classes must be located. that aspect now. I shall deal with it later. I have heard it said that over the years The public examinations now being con­ the Maths. II papers have been a "bit of ducted have caused great concern in many fruit", to use an Australian expression, and quarters. I have spoken to many parents who have not been up to the standard that should have been somewhat critical of the papers have been set. These points of view have set. It appears that there is dismay and been put to me and have exercised my concern, or at least confusion, in the minds mind, and I am raising them on the Reso­ of many members of the public about the lution now being debated. papers set in the Senior Public Examination that is now proceeding. Perhaps, in view of In all subjects for the Senior Public this, the Minister could make a considered Examination this year, a "P" pass has been comment on the subject. adopted. Again, this is causing some con­ fusion and concern in the minds of parents. Mr. Tucker: Do you think it is fair to It does not qualify candidates for entrance students when people make comments such to the university, for which they must get as those that have been made recently half an "A", "B" or "C" pass. I should like way through the examination? to know what percentages have been set for "A", "B" and "C" passes that have enabled Mr. HUGHES: I should like the hon. a "P" pass to become operative. Certain member to qualify his interjection. In my percentages usually are set for "A", "B" opinion, members of the public have a nght or "C" passes in a certain subject. The to make comments at any time, and I think question that I pose is this: have those that students who have undergone an exam­ percentages been raised to enable a "P" ination are qualified to comment on the pass to be given this year? As I say, if papers. I do not think a public airing of the "A" "B" and "C" percentages have been questions such as this does any harm, pro­ raised i~ order to allow for the "P" pass, it vided the criticism is constructive. The day poses a very serious problem, which mem­ we begin to restrict public comment Will b

Mr. Tucker: Surely the matriculation the early years, some youngsters do not show requirements will do that. obvious talent and may have to work a little harder to make the grade. Mr. HUGHES: Examinations help to determine who is capable, but at what age Other questions have been put to me should we start this culling out? A teacher showing public concern following the set­ who has studied the matter has suggested ting of this year's examinations. Is the early in the student's life is the time to Department of Education taking over the discover whether he is capable of continuing job of setting papers for the Senior on to university. The teacher suggested Examination? Has the Minister for the that we should find out early in the piece department formed a committee, depart­ if he has the necessary aptitude instead of mental or otherwise, to investigate a plan waiting until some years of study have been to take over in this regard or to implement wasted. Of course, that poses the question any other method? Thme are questions of the age at which the culling should be posed to me by members of the public done and the system that should be applied. who are a little concerned about the setting of the papers and future examinations. The Mr. Tucker: It sounds like a quota Minister might be able to help us here. system to me. It would be better to enlighten the public at this stage than to allow any misconcep­ Mr. HUGHES: It could well be a quota tion or confusion to reign supreme. Young system, based on intelligence and students would be able to settle down and qualifications. know their course for the future. Mr. Tucker: Surely you would not agree Mr. Davies: Why don't you let us debate with a quota system? the Estimates that have not been already been debated? Mr. HUGHES: I am not in favour of a quota system. I am telling hon. members Mr. HUGHES: I could speak at length what a teacher has suggested to me. I on this Resolution. There is very little believe some children develop later in life. more worthy to talk about than the Depart­ Many psychological factors may be involved. ment of Education and it behoves every and sometimes economic circumstances can member to take the same interest in the prevent a young student from doing well at subject as we on this side of the House school for some years, but, by dint of very do. hard work and study, he may develop later. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Earlier I instanced the case of an aporen­ tice in the electrical trade and I said it was Mr. HUGHES: Hon. members opposite necessary for him to pass in maths. I was can cry and roar and shout. I ask them concerned with a lad who wanted to become to cast their minds back to the days when an electrical apprentice. I had a lot of faith they administered the Department of Educa­ in him. He was very sincere; he came tion and remember the old brown buildings, from a good home; and his parents were which were poorly illuminated, when there interested in his welfare. They wanted him was insufficient staff-- to become an apprentice but he failed in Opposition Members interjected. his maths. at the Junior level. He wJs selected by the employer from 29 appli­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! cants to become an apprentice but, because he failed in his maths. at Junior, he was Mr. HUGHES: They were hovels falling unable to undertake an apprenticeship; he down around the students' ears. What have was not mdentured because mathematics play we today? I invite the hon. member for a tremendously important part in the elec­ Tablelands and the hon. member for Towns­ trical trade. So it seemed that he would not ville North to go to any suburb-- be able to achieve his life's ambition. However, I took up his case with the Opposition Members interjected. ch.airman of the apprenticeship com­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! mit!ee. After further investigation, it was ~ecJde.d that the lad should carry out an Mr. HUGHES: They will find well mtensrve course of study in maths. and his designed schools, aesthetically sited in apprenticeship subjects, and he was given a beautiful areas, with natural shade, ample probationary start as an apprentice. I am light, ample tutorial staff, and an education pleased to relate that he subsequently made system second to none. We are proud of good and passed his maths. examination. it and they are jealous of it. That is why I now believe that, because of the extra they are creating such a turmoil in the hardship and responsibility he had to face, Chamber this very minute. ar;td because he accepted the challenge, he wrll do very well in the trade of his choice. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! However, that poses another question in Mr. HUGHES: I think the Minister should culling or applying quotas for the university. give consideration to setting up some form We should give consideration to cases of of pilot system of segregation in schools. young students who may develop later. In Many parents would prefer to have the Supply [17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1565 choice of sending their children to a boys' I find this situation a little confusing, and school or to a girls' school as the case may apparently other hon. members have found be. A pilot system of segregated schooling similar difficulty. There was agreement in a would give the parents the fullest choice recent debate that the Department of Educa­ and so remove the necessity forced upon tion is extremely important, and it is a a parent to send his child to a non-State department that should have its destiny in school to take advantage of this facility. its own hands. It should handle its own Some consideration should be given to a budget on building work, renovations, and more economic approach to the standardisa­ repairs, and the Department of Works could tion of school-books. There would be a be a service department for the Department saving in cost to the students who go from of Education and any other department class to class each year. I know there is that it cares to serve. The strange situation a limit to how far we can go in this regard seems to be that the Department of Education, because of revision, but there should be some which is a most important department, has standardisation. Education is supposed to be its programming arranged by another free; but only tuition is free. There is department. justification for considering the supplying of To substantiate this, I shall quote from a free books in certain instances within certain letter sent by the Director-General of Educa­ limitations. tion to the parents and citizens' association I now wish to refer to the Museum, where of one of the high schools in my electorate. some of the relics on my right should be; It reads- that is where they will probably find a "With reference to your letter of the place in days to come. It is not open until 2nd instant, I have to inform you that after lunch on Sundays, and I have had difficulties being experienced in relation to complaints from tourists and other people the development of the Mount Gravatt because it is closed in the mornings when State High School building and grounds many want to take children there to assist are appreciated and you are assured that them in their social studies. every endeavour will be made to alleviate Finally, I refer to the Australian the present position having due regard to Elizabethan Theatre Trust. Many people the availability of funds and the needs of are concerned at the type of play being other schools throughout the State. presented under the guise of advancing "Approval was recently given for the literature and culture. Plays such as "Who's expenditure of £74,113 on the provision of Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" are presented additional permanent classroom accom­ from stages to audiences likely to contaminate modation at the school to cater for the young impressionable minds. (Probably there anticipated increase in enrolments at the are no young minds here, and I wonder also commencement of the 1964 school year. whether there are many impressionable "Your Association will appreciate the minds among members.) These plays are tremendous job that has been undertaken presented with Government subsidy. I do by the Department with the implementation not believe we should go to the extent of the new syllabus and the need to of subsidising filth. One passage in spread the spending"- this play refers to "A hysterical preg­ nancy-she blew up and then went and this is the point- down." I could quote other passages, but "on the provision of additional classroom I do not consider them fit to read and accommodation over the whole of the I do not believe this sort of filth should financial year and thus prevent action be dished out from stages under the guise having to be taken to dismiss tradesmen." of culture and subsidised by the Government This is stated, apparently, as a matter of to the extent of £12,000. Many people, policy. including church leaders, have written to hon. members, including myself, expressing Mr. Lloyd: Who wrote that? their concern at wilful and indecent exposure Mr. CHINCHEN: It is from the Director­ and of corrupted and depraved minds in plays General of Education. such as this produced under the guise of culture. Mr. O'DonneU: You are asking for Mr. CIDNCHEN (Mt. Gravatt) (5.42 duplication. p.m.): I take the opportunity afforded by Mr. CHINCHEN: I want the Department this debate to endeavour to get clarification of Education to handle its own affairs. I of a matter concerning the Department of think that is the reasonable course. I Education that has been worrying me for know that the Department of Works is a some time, and also to make some suggestions very important department, but it should that might help in the smooth working of be kept in its correct place-a service depart­ this department. ment for other departments. If the Depart­ I do not know the exact relationship ment of Education wants schools at certain between the Department of Education and times and at certain places, it should be able the Department of Works. It appears to to make its own decisions. It should not me that the Department of Works holds be told, "You will get the schools when the moneybags for the building and renova­ we agree to give them to you." I do not tion work of the Department of Education. think that is right. If the Department of 1566 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Works cannot build the schools by the date "5. No covered ways exist between the fixed by the Department of Education, they three main blocks. In torrential rains must be obtained from other sources. The this, of course, would be a great incon­ Department of Works should not delay build­ venience to both staffs and pupils." ing to keep the workmen going. If necessary, On 17 February the Minister was kind schools should be built by other means. enough to write to me and say, in addition Mr. O'Donnell: Do you want schools built to other things- by contract? 'The Under Secretary, Department of Mr. CHINCHEN: I want schools built Works, is being requested to arrange for as and when they are required by the the position concerning the toilet position Department of Education, not as and when at the school to be examined. It is also the Department of Works decides they should being requested that consideration be be built. There is nothing unusual about given to the following- that. (i) Sealing the area between the Home Science Block and the Canteen Block; I have here a report from the Education Department of Victoria-Technical Schools­ (ii) Provision of covered ways between which says- the three main blocks." "Planning Section I am making this point about these two very "To assist in the extension of technical small matters just to show what happens. school facilities, and the establishment of On 9 April I was told by the Minister for new technical schools, a Planning Section Education- has been established to prepare sketch "With further reference to your personal plans of the extra facilities required." representations concerning the State High This is separate, and the department does School at Mount Gravatt, I quote here­ its own planning. under text of a letter received from the The report continues- Under Secretary, Department of Works, regarding the provision of additional "When these are approved, the plans toilets. are completed in detail by the Public Works Department." 'With reference to your minute dated 11th ultimo re Mount Gravatt State Sometimes it should be done by the Public High School, I would advise that toilet Works Department; sometimes it should be provision is being provided with current done by private contract. It depends on what additions. Until such are constructed the Education Department wants, not what the temporary E.C.s which have been pro­ Public Works Department wants. vided must be used. In my opinion, education in Queensland 'Funds are not available at present for is so important that the schools should be the sealing of the area between the built as they are required by the Department Home Science Block and the Canteen of Education, and I suggest firmly that the or the provision of covered ways department should have a small planning between the three main buildings.' " section with control of its own budget, and Therefore, though the Minister has suggested should be able to tell hon. members, head that this matter be considered, it comes back teachers, or anybody else who may inquire, from the Under Secretary, who says that when they can expect to get anything that there are no funds. has been approved or anything that will be approved in the future. On 13 April I wrote to the Minister for Education saying- Mr. Sherrington: Bring it up in Caucus. "! was disturbed to learn from your Mr. CHINCHEN: Surely this is of interest letter of 9th instant that funds are not to all hon. mmebers. It is a straightforward available at present for the sealing of the idea, and I think it will have the support of area between the Home Science Block and most hon. members. the Canteen or the provision of covered ways between the three main buildings at I should like to read extracts from a the State High School, Mt. Gravatt. number of letters to show the difficulties that arise from what I believe to be dual control. "I fully realise that there must be an At present, I do not know to whom I should enormous call on funds at present, but I go to ask about matters on which I require do feel that these two matters are information. Although I believe they are absolutely essential at the school and I matters relating to the Department of do hope that these matters are kept in Education, I am confused, and I do not think mind when new estimates are raised. that I am unique in this respect. "Confirmation that this will be done would certainly be of some help to the On 3 February I wrote to the Minister staff, parents and pupils." for Education about a number of matters, Nos. 4 and 5 of which were these- On 27 April, I was told by the Minister- "4. The area between the Home Science "With reference to your further personal block and the Canteen block is not yet representations concerning the sealing of bituminised, and this will become a mud­ the area between the Home Science Block pool as soon as the summer rains arrive. and the Canteen and the provision of Supply [17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1567

covered ways between the three main That is the point I am referring to. buildings at the State High School, Mt. The letter continues- Gravatt, I desire to inform you that these matters have been referred to the Under "The proposals for provision of covered Secretary, Department of Works, for a ways and the sealing of the area between report. the Home Science Block and the Canteen were accordingly referred to that Depart­ "Upon receipt of advice from the ment for examination by Technical Department of Works, I shall advise you Officers. accordingly." "As funds allocated for the current I sent those letters on to the parents' and financial year have already been com­ citizens' association in order to explain the mitted it is necessary to defer further position and I found a great deal of con­ consideration of the proposals. The pro­ fusion. So I wrote to the Minister on 6 May jects will, however, again receive con­ saying- sideration in the light of funds to be made . "In your letter of 17th February with available and the demands on these funds reference to the State High School at Mt. for the forthcoming financial year." Gravatt, when referring to the Under I received the following letter, dated 11 June, Secretary, Department of Works, you from the office of the Minister for stated-'It is also being requested that Education- consideration be given to the following: (1) Sealing of the area between the Home "With further reference to your personal Science Block and the Canteen Block; representations respecting the provision (2) Provision of covered ways between of covered ways and a sealed area at the three main blocks.' A copy of your the Mt. Gravatt State High School, I letter containing this statement was, of desire to inform you that the Under course, sent to the Parents' and Citizens' Secretary, Department of Works, has Association. advised that this work will be considered next financial year." "I find now that it was presumed that when the Minister asked the Department Nine months have elapsed and many letters of Works that consideration be given to have passed between the Department of some particular project, it was thought Education and the Department of Works. that this was a polite way of asking for If such building work came under the control the work to be done. In other words, the of the planning department of the Depart­ High School parents considered that you ment of Education they could say, "Yes, had approved of these two projects." we will do this in 12 months", "two years", When the second letter arrived, the con­ or "five years". Whatever the period was at fusion it caused can be imagined. least they could make a decision on the matter and it would be final. But we are The letter of 6 May continues- still no further forward after all this time. "In your letter of 9 April, you quoted These are essential matters: bitumen sealing the text of a letter received from the between two blocks of a high school and Under Secretary, Department of Works, the provision of a covered way so that the as follows-'Funds are not available at children and teachers are protected from present for the sealing of an area between the weather when they are moving from the Home Science Block and the Canteen, room to room. The need for this is accepted or the provision of covered ways between by the Department of Education, but we the three main buildings.' cannot get a decision on the matter. I "When a copy of this letter was make a plea at this stage that the Depart­ received by the Parents' and Citizens' ment of Education be enabled to plan its Association there was considerable con­ own building work. fusion, and I have been asked by a num­ Mr. Davies: Which Minister do you think ber of the people involved just what is the fell down on the job? true position. They feel it is strange that the Under Secretary, Department of Mr. CHINCHEN: I do not think any Works, should have the final say as to Minister has fallen down on the job. The what is done, when consideration has been hon. member knows what happens in his requested by the Minister. I found it area, and in every other area, in the pro­ difficult to explain the situation and would vision of school buildings. be pleased to have your advice on this matter." Mr. Davies: If I have any complaints to make I will make them. I don't ask you to Then I was told by the Minister, by letter dated 19 May- make them on my behalf. "With reference to previous corres­ Mr. CHINCHEN: The hon. member has pondence and to your personal representa­ no complaints. I do not think any of us tions concerning the State High School at have any complaints. Let us streamline the Mount Gravatt, I desire to inform you procedure if we possibly can. If there is that, in common with other Government a better way, let us adopt it. I am firmly Departments, the Department of Works convinced that knowing what money is avail­ is the constructing authority for my able to the Department of Education the Department." planning department could say, "We want 1568 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

this work done." If the Department of for the 101 other needs of the mission. I put Works could not do it because of price or forward this matter for the favourable con­ for some other reason, the Department of sideration of the Minister and the department. Education surely should have the right to get the work done by some other means. Another matter which causes me concern I cannot believe that the Department of is the syllabus for coloured children. Many Education is bound to get all its work of them come from their own little homes done by the Department of Works. It is where their parents speak the native tongue. crazy if that is the case. I can well imagine The children attend our schools and have the thousands of similar problems throughout the same syllabus as ordinary children yet they State. When I ring up the Department of have an entirely different background in Education about a matter concerning a speech, tradition, environment, and all the school I am told, "I am sorry, Mr. Chinchen other matters which are so different. In those we can't tell you about that. The Depart: circumstances we expect them to learn, from ment of Works has borrowed the file." How the first grade, the same things that other many times have other hon. members had children learn. That probably accounts for the that happen? One cannot get an answer. lack of comprehension I found when a num­ The Department of Education should have ber of them read to us from a book. It these jobs filed and arrange for the work to seemed that, more often than not, they did be done by a service department or in some not understand the words they were reading. other way--contract or anything else. This They read extremely well but seemed to lack should be in the hands of the Department comprehension. I believe that is because the of Education and nobody else's. If this syllabus is not designed to meet the needs of were done many of these problems would be their entirely different environment. If we overcome, and we would not be chasing were to design a special syllabus for them­ around as we are at the present time. it might take some time, but it is well worth con~idering-we would be doing them a good I should like to mention briefly the educa­ service. tion of aboriginals in settlements and missions. With hon. members from both The next question is what are we educating sides of the Chamber I was fortunate in them for? I think their education should be vi~it!ng a number of settlements and designed for the work they maY undertake. misswns on the Peninsula and the Torres A noticeable shortcoming is the lack of Strait Islands. There are a few observations manual training. When they are taught to that I feel should be made as to how the speak English, they should have at their situation could be improved in a number disposal some means to help them extend of ways. We have two kinds of establish­ their education. In other words, we should ment; missions conducted by the various provide libraries for them. I was surprised to churches and settlements conducted by the ~ee that, after finishing their education, very Department of Native Affairs. In the settle­ few books are available to them. I did not see ments the schools are conducted and staffed one library; there was only an isolated book­ by the Department of Education but the nothing else. We must consider what we are missions staff their own schools ' which is educating them for, design education for them quite a load for the missions' to carry. and th.en n:ake available for them something Usually they cannot pay their teachers as that Will stimulate their interest in the English much as the department can, which means lan~auge. I am making these suggestions, that they have a narrow choice in their havmg seen the situation at the settlements selection of teachers. I think that proves and the missions, and I should like to think that perhaps young people being educated in that the Minister will give some consideration t~e missions are not getting the same educa­ to them. tiOn as they would at State-controlled schools. Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (7.20 p.m.): Because of the remarks of the previous [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] speaker, I think I should deal briefly with the fact that the Department of Works is the Mr.. CHINCHEN: If the Department of constructing authority for the Department of Educatwn were to take over the mission schools I believe it would be in the interests Education. I have nothing but the highest of the aboriginal children as well as the praise for the work carried out by the day­ missions .. I make it quite clear that, having labour force under the control of the Depart­ met certam teachers at the mission schools I ment of Works in the construction of schools found them to be dedicated and really doi~g in my electorate. a job b~yond the 1!-ormal call of duty for The Department of Education should be anyone m the teachmg profession. They are thankful for the system that we have in wonderful people, thoroughly dedicated but Queensla~d under which so many schools I believe that th~ department, having ~any show a high standard of workmanship. They more teachers at Its disposal, could relieve its would c.ompare more than favourably with teachers after short periods instead of their schools m any other part of Australia. This having. to remain. there for so long. At the has been brought about because of the policy ~ame time, the children's education would be over the years, under which day labour Improved. In addition, the missions could co~troll.ed by the Department of Works, use the money at present spent on education which IS the constructing authority for the Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1569

Department of Education, has become thor­ to town and country areas teams of men oughly trained in what is required in public who visit schools and clean and tidy their buildings, particularly schools. They have grounds. I feel that if that was done here, always viewed the erection of schools in the the department would find that it was light that they must be built to last. Because involved in little more expense than the of this, I feel that the Department of Educa­ cost of subsidising and replacing machines tion can be thankful for the system that has supplied by school committees. given us this great force of workmen who are thoroughly trained in what is required. I hope Mr. SPEAKER: Order! There are other that the day never dawns when the job of ways for the Opposition Whip to approach constructing schools and other educational the Government Whip than by passing between facilities in our State passes into the hands of the member who is speaking and the Chair. contractors. It seems that the experiments I ask the hon. member concerned to watch which have bee·n conducted in the field of that point. contract work in many cases have resulted Mr. SHERRINGTON: It is obvious that in the Department of Works being called on the problem of clearing school grounds is to rectify numerous defects. If there is any getting beyond the capacity of school com­ weakness in the system, it is in the liaison mittees. It must be remembered that in between the two Ministers concerned. There most places it is difficult to attract parents should be no thought of doing away with the to school committee work. Even the bigger system that has been built up between the schools are fortunate to have 15 or 20 Department of Education and the Depart­ dedicated people on their committees. I ment of Works. offer to the Minister the suggestion that he I shall now deal with some of the problems consider seriously the provision of gangs of confronting the very hard-working band of men equipped with grass-cutting machinery. people on school committees and parents' and tools, and so on, to ensure that the grounds citizens' associations. From a close association of schools are kept clean. This would with a particular school committee, I know relieve the financial burden on school com­ the tremendous value of the work that these mittees and enable them to spend more people perform, partly because of their sense money on such things as library books, of public duty and partly because they have which will be of benefit to the pupils. children attending ·school. I think it is pertinent to observe that appeals by school committees Mr. Sullivan: Don't you think that would to the public for funds are conducted in com­ be taking the interest of parents away from petition with sporting organisations, and so on. the school? It takes a great deal of work and trouble to Mr. SHERRINGTON: I have been build up funds to provide the various comple­ president of a school committee for ten mentary amenities at schools. Some of the years, and I think the hon. member for worthwhile projects carried out by these com­ Condamine will agree that even in the larger mittees are the provision of library books, centres of the State a school is fortunate projectors, ground development for sports to have more than 15 or 20 people on its ovals, beautification schemes, and many other committee. As I said earlier, if the hon. things that go to make for the smooth work­ member had been listening to me-- ing of a school, and the enjoyment of its pupils. Mr. Sullivan: I was, very attentively. Some obligation should be placed on the Mr. SHERRINGTON: It is only through Department of Education to relieve com­ the efforts of these few dedicated people mittees of the burden of having to maintain that schools are able to survive. school grounds in a tidy condition. They raise money and provide many amenities for the Mr. Sullivan: You must agree that it is schools, and I think the time has come when a pity if the lack of interest continues. the department must consider seriously assist­ Mr. SHERRINGTON: The lack of interest ing committees in the cleaning of school cannot be overcome. Because school com­ grounds. It is true that the department mittees provide many of the amenities for subsidises the purchase of grass-cutting imple­ schools, it is up to the Government to try ments and so on, nevertheless the raising of to provide gangs who will pay regular visits the necessary finance for the purchase of this to schools and keep the grounds tidy. The equipment poses a problem to the small school money raised by parents could then be committee. Having purchased the equipment, better spent on such things as library books, somebody has to use it. In the larger schools which are of benefit to the pupils. many committee members have to devote their spare time to such things as cutting Mr. Sullivan interjected. grass, and I think that, because of the magni­ Mr. SHERRINGTON: I have a few more tude of this task in a number of schools, the remarks to make in the time available to time has arrived when the department will me, so I ask the hon. member for Con­ have to go further than merely subsidising damine not to interrupt. the purchase of clearing equipment. Mr. Sullivan: I was only trying to help. I feel that this could be done as it is done in Western Australia, where I under­ Mr. SHERRINGTON: I can do all right stand the Department of Education allots without the hon. member's help. 1570 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

I should like to deal with the subsi~y on Unfortunately, the committee is faced with television receivers for use in pnmary the position that there is an Army camp schools. I asked the Minister a question on two sides of the school ground and on this subject because I am convinced that a church property on the third side. The the more use is made of visual aids in only avenue for enlargement is through education, the easier it will be to educate the Army camp. It has been there since young children. No matter what efforts are the last war and covers a huge area of made to impart knowledge by the spoken ground that is not being used. I have word, I feel that visual education will play written to the Minister for the Army, and an increasingly important part in education. at my request the Minister for Education As I said, I asked the Minister for Educa­ has written to the Federal authorities. How­ tion a question about subsidising the pur­ ever, they steadfastly refuse to make any chase of television receivers for primary of the ground available because they say schools. I do not intend to give his answer it may be required by the Army in time verbatim, but he indicated that the question of emergency. Representations have been of the payment of such a subsidy was bound made over a long period, and the number up with the amount of telecast time available of school buildings has increased to such for primary schools. He said that the an extent that there is not even room for department subsidised the purchase of tele­ a cricket pitch in the school grounds. The vision receivers for secondary schools, but Army has adopted a Colonel Blimp attitude that until the telecast time for primary and talked with its tongue in its cheek schools was increased, the Government about the possibility of wanting to extend would not consider subsidising the purchase its use of the property, but it has decided of television receivers for them. now to make some use of it. When I saw I took the trouble to get in touch with the amount of work that was going on I the Australian Broadcasting Commission, and expected some secret weapon to be erected I was informed that the secondary schools on the property, but I find now, on its are covered in I 5 twenty-minute telecasts completion, that it is merely a barbeque. in each school week, and that the time Five hundred and fifty children at this school allotted to primary schools is 10 periods of need extra ground for play purposes while the 20 minutes for the various grades. So there Army has land next door simply going to is a difference of only about 100 minutes waste. In any case, should there come an between the telecast time for primary schools emergency, surely the Army could repossess and the telecast time for secondary schools. the ground if it wanted to expand. Because this time is available and is being I ask the Minister to take up with these used for telecasts to primary schools, and Colonel Blimps of the Army once again because in addition there may be many other to see if anything can be done to give the interesting subjects programmed by the children at this school some additional play A.B.C. from time to time, television must area. play an ever-increasing part in the education of children attending primary schools. If Mr. LOW (Cooroora) (7.36 p.m.): I wel­ the telecast time available for primary come the opportunity of saying something schools is the only thing holding up the on the Education Vote in the Resolutions of payment of subsidies, the Minister should Supply. In the early part of the evening review the policy of the department and see it was said that possibly we were doing a whether it is possible to pay subsidies on bit of stonewalling, but that is not so. television receivers that have already been installed in many primary schools. Opposition Members interjected. I wish now to deal with a particularly Mr. LOW: When the Education Estimates personal matter relating to schools. As I were before the Chamber last week there said, I am Lhe chairman of the school were so many speakers, from the Opposi­ committee at the Orange Grove State School, tion side in particular, that not all of us in Orange Grove Road, Coopers Plains, could get an opportunity to ~ay what we and the committee has always had a problem wanted to say and tonight there is already in endeavouring to cater for the increasing a list of speakers that will make me limit number of pupils attending the school. Its my remarks to 10 minutes instead of the 40 fortunes have fluctuated to some extent. minutes that I should like to take. This is When the school was opened in the adjoin­ a very important department in this State. ing suburb of Sunnybank, there was a drift away from the Orange Grove State School, I very sincerely congra tu late the but attendances have again increased steadily Minister-- to about 550. Mr. Hanson: You did that last time. Before I became a member of this Assembly, I made representations, as chair­ Mr. LOW: I did not, because this is the man of the school committee, for the first time I have had an opportunity of enlargement of the school grounds, but speaking on his Estimates this session. they were not successful. Since becoming I congratulate the Minister for Educa­ a member of Parliament, I have constantly tion, Sir Herbert Watkin, the Deputy endeavoured to overcome the problem. Director-General, Mr. Black, the Director of Supply [17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1571

Secondary Education, and the Minister's state; teachers were housed in horse stables; secretary for the many courtesies extended schools were poorly ventilated, shockingly to me. illuminated, with dark and dingy rooms. No man has done as much in so little Mr. O'Donnell: Are you talking about time as the Minister for Education has done your electorate? in Queensland since 1957. Between 1957 and 1964 the children of this State have Mr. LOW: It applied throughout really had an opportunity to take full Queensland. advantage of kindergarten, primary. secondary, university and adult education The Country-Liberal Government has a facilities. I am one of those who suffered wonderful record in education, one that we the embarrassment and disadvantage of cannot emphasise too much. All the old, being in Opposition for many years, and stone-coloured buildings have a new look. during that. time hon. members opposite Prior to this Government's assuming office were not mterested in the education of there were no septic conveniences; earth school children. As a matter of fact, if the closets were the order of the day, if any school children of this State had a vote, facilities at all were provided. Today septic hon. members opposite would remain on that conveniences are being installed at all the side for the rest of their lives. principal schools. This is a wonderful advance in health standards. We have done more for school children in seven years than was done previously in The former Governments appropriated 37 years. We have given the children the about £200,000 for school transport services. opportunities they richly deserve and it will Mr. Hewitt: £147,000. go down in history that this Minister has done a remarkably good job. Mr. LOW: My good friend from Mackenzie Opposition Members interjected. informs me that it was £147,000. I gave hon. members opposite the benefit of the . Mr. LOW: Never mind about that part of doubt. This Government has spent more 1t; I always believe in giving credit where than £1,000,000 on school transport ser­ credit is due. The Minister came from the vices in Queensland. For years and years ranks of the Department of Education and we appealed from the Opposition benches he knew his subject matter and his story to the then Labour Government to pro­ extremely well and was therctore imme­ vide transport for children attending State diately able to take over the affairs of the secondary schools. Month in and month department. out, year in and year out, the answer was, "No. It just can't be done." One I should like to say, too, that prior to his taking over there was no harmony between of the first acts of the new Minister for the Department of Education and the Depart­ Education in 1957 was to institute such ment of Works in this State-none what­ a service in the Premier's electorate. Today ever. Now, there is complete harmony. As we can proudly point to secondary-school soon as buildings are approved the Depart­ transport services throughout the State. It is a wonderful thing to realise that 90 per cent. ment of Works gets on with the iob and of the children in Queensland now have a today we have beautiful school bmldlnns and secondary-school education available to them. the children as well as the teacher~ are extremely happy. There is much more that I could say, but The Minister has also brought about I will give my colleagues an opportunity to decentralisation of administration-which is say a few words on this Resolution. I important-by the appointment of regional compliment the Minister and his officers and ?fficers.. Today the whole State is split record my full appreciation of the wonderful mto regiOns and the administration of educa­ effort made by the Department of Education and the Minister in the advancement of tion is carried out from various c~ntres throughout the State. education in Queensland. The Mini~te_r for Education is possibly Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) (7.46 the only Mm1ster who makes his annual p.m.): After listening to the hon. member report to His Excellency the Governor. That for Cooroora one would wonder how the is a very important point. His report is Minister ever attained his standard of educa­ supplemented by reports from the Director­ tion because. if I estimate his age correctly, General of Education and others. The he would have been educated under the !"fipister's report is a very interesting one; Labour Government that the hon. member It Is ~ull of facts and details of progress and was running down. promises a wonderful future for the young people of this State. Mr. Pizzey: There is not much logic in that argument, you know. Turning now to the subject of school accommodation, prior to 1957, but for the Mr. TUCKER: Of all the fields of camphor laurel trees and fig trees in school education, the primary school is perhaps the grounds, many children would have had most important. If we lay the foundations nowhere shady to sit to receive their lessons. properly we do not have a great deal to Schools were in a shocking and terrible worry about thereafter. 1572 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

I intend to be parochial tonight for I wish I shall deal now with the transporting of to deal with the schools on Magnetic Island. secondary-school children from Magnetic There are four one-teacher schools-at Picnic Island to Townsvi!le. The Department of Bay, Nellie Bay, Arcadia and Horseshoe Education has offered to subsidise this Bay. They are very efficient, under the con­ transport, but we still have not been able trol of excellent teachers but in this day and to get anywhere with it. It was left to age it seems wrong that within a radius of the parents living on the island to try to 10 miles of Townsville-and possibly less arrange for somebody to take the children than that-schools continue to operate under back and forth. the one-teacher system. I know that there has been a great deal of expenditure on this To give the House some idea of the sort of thing but it must continue to be so. position-the children on the island have to In some instances, young people on the catch the boat service in the morning. To island are within 5 or 6 miles of Townsville do this, many of them who live at the yet they are forced to attend one-teacher distant bays leave home before 7 o'clock. schools. Some classes have only two or They finish school between 3 and 3 30 p.m. three children in them but there are six or and are forced to wait around the city until seven grades at the schools. I have made a 5.30 or 5.45 p.m. for the boat back to number of representations about this matter the island. They then have to get trans­ because I know that in many places one­ port to their homes and they do not reach teacher schools have ceased to exist. They home until 7 o'clock at night. That means have been closed and a central school has that, during the week, secondary-school been established, with a bus service to bring children living on the island-and their num­ the children from the outside centres. The ber will be increased this year because the same should be done on Magnetic Island. 8th grade has gone to the high school­ I will not say where the central school leave home before 7 a.m. and do not get should be established; that is a matter for home again until 7 p.m. Everybody will the department. agree that that is a long day. Mr. Pizzey: We would like your advice Mr. Walsh: Who pays the cost of trans­ on that. port? Mr. TUCKER: I will leave that to the Mr. TUCKER: At present they pay it department to decide. A survey will have to themselves. There has been an offer by be made to see where the children come the Department of Education to subsidise from, and then a decision can be made as to it. The existing boat service requires the where the school should be established. I children to be away from home for that sincerely believe every effort should be made long period. After arriving home at to close the one-teacher schools and estab­ 7 o'clock at night they must eat and then lish a central school and a bus service for they have a great deal of study to do, transporting the children. Instead of one which means that they are up until mid­ teacher with seven grades, we could have night, and sometimes after, if they have three teachers with two grades each. I am bookkeeping to do and other subjects to sure the Minister will agree that that would study. They are up again early in the be far better for the children on the island morning and leave home before 7 o'clock to attending primary school. The teachers are catch the boat to the mainland. That is dedicated teachers who willingly give of not a desirable state of affairs. It is some­ their time but the days of one teacher with thing I have been speaking about all the five, six or seven grades have gone. years I have been here, trying to get some­ thing done. The Department of Education Mr. Pizzey: As soon as we finish the crash seems to have handed to the parents on programme on Monkey Island, we will go the island the responsibility of trying to over there. find someone to transport their children. I do not think that is good enough. There Mr. TUCKER: I realise that a crash pro­ should be a concerted effort by the depart­ gramme is being undertaken at Monkey ment to transport these children to the Island. I spoke about that the other day. school and deliver them home in the even­ We want to get that high school established ing. I do not like to see children hanging so that our secondary-school pupils can around the city for 2t hours with time on attend the new site on Ross River. However, their hands, with nothing to do except go I believe every effort should be made to get down to the boatshed, or hang around the a central school on the island. No-one will lower parts of the city. deny that teachers find it extremely hard to cope with seven grades. Most of the roads Mr. Murray: Purely because Hayles will that would serve a central school bus on the not run an earlier service. island are bituminised so there would be no Mr. TUCKER: That is true. The Depart­ trouble with transport for the children. We ment of Education tried to get Hayles to sincerely hope that soon we will have estab­ run an earlier service. He won't play. It lished on the island this very desirable form is strange that this man seems to be protected ?f primary education, which has been lack­ in every other sphere and in regard to any­ mg up to now. thing else he carries, He has no trouble Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1573 at all, and seems to have no trouble with my city. The following are the amounts reference to transport on the island, but budgeted for adult education in Queensland when we tried to get him to introduce this in the last five years- service he was not interested because, to £ put it crudely, there wasn't a quid in it. It 1959-60 58,500 is very important to me on behalf of our 1960-61 63,774 secondary-school children. 1961-62 69,155 71,716 Mr. Camm: How many children are 1962-63 involved? 1963-64 75,222 I notice from the Estimates that the sum Mr. TUCKER: Somewhere about 30, but required for this year is £77,963. that could be doubled in time to come as Although over those years the Budget the population on the island increases. allocation has been increased by approxim­ I have frequently spoken to the Minister ately £16,000, 95 per cent. of the increase about the opportunity school at Townsville. is attributable to salary rises for adult The head master, Mr. Norm Fraser, is education organisers, and only 5 per cent. doing a wonderful job. Anybody who sees to contingencies. That means that there the work that those dedicated teachers do has been no real movement forward in adult there must have a great deal of admiration education in Queensland, at least from 1959 for them. At present about 76 children to 1964. attend the school. The number can rise There is at present in Townsville adult from 76 to about 80 depending on losses education equipment that can be described through transfer and so on. In a question only as junk. There are projectors from to the Minister I asked how long ago a which, if used without a protective cloth or survey had been made in Townsville to rubber insulation, the operator receives a ascertain the number of children who should shock. Instead of £77,963, at least £107,000 attend the opportunity school. I found that or near it is needed. There is a crying one had been carried out about 18 months need for the renewal of much equipment ago, and the Minister assured me that there at Townsville. I know that many lecturers was no need then for extra accommodation are using their own equipment. Adult at the school. I made it my business to education is in the doldrums, and if new look into the matter, and I found that equipment is not provided and lecturers approximately 50 children should go to the opportunity school in Townsville but are are not paid higher fees, the position will prevented from doing so by lack of accom­ get worse. District organisers are very much modation and teachers. aware that there has been no real effort to effect any improvement. There is ample justification for enlarging the school. In Townsville alone, another Mr. RAE (Gregory) (8 p.m.): One of the 50 children should be attending, and it most outstanding organisations that has been appears to me that temporary classrooms made available to the people of Queens­ land is the library service. Since the end should be provided at the school. If that of the second world war, informed opinion is not possible, the West End school, only throughout the free world has been that a stone's throw away, has some vacant there should be in every unit of population rooms that could be used for this purpose. of any size a municipal library service; What is really needed is an additional wing that these municipal libraries should be at the opportunity school to allow the serviced by trained librarians; that they additional 50 children to attend and take should contain a good percentage of cultural, advantage of the type of teaching available educational and informative books as well there. Extra teachers would be needed, and as purely recreational books; that they I feel that they would be forthcoming. should provide books for children and There is a child specialist in Townsville adolescents as well as for adults; and that and two psychologists, namely, Dr. Henry they should be on a non-subscription basis, and Dr. Scott, who I know have referred as the ability to read fluently and to good a number of children to the opportunity purpose is surely a necessary attribute of school only to be told that they cannot citizenship. be admitted. Co-ordination of library services, while carried out with success in populous I want to impress on the Minister the countries such as Great Britain, is even pressing need for an extra wing at the more essential in Queensland, where many opportunity school to permit the enrolment councils administer units of population of of another 50 to 52 children, whose names less than 5,000. Experience of library have been received by the head master. administrators throughout the world has It seems wrong that these children should shown that it is difficult for a unit of be denied the advantages of attendance at population of less than 15,000 to 20,000 the opportunity school because of a lack to establish and maintain satisfactorily an of accommodation and staff. independent library service. Finally, I want to make another appeal Three major difficulties beset councils in for improved adult education facilities in areas of low population if they attempt to 1574 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply set up independent library services. These Thirdly, the regional librarian pays regular are the problems of financing a basic book visits to the participating libraries and tutors collection, of ensuring regular supplies of the local librarian in library techniques; she new books, and of obtaining satisfactory maintains an advisory bureau at regional staff. While these difficulties have been headquarters where advice on library matters mitigated to some extent by co-operation can be obtained at all times. Finally, the with the Library Board of Queensland on the regional headquarters act as a clearing house part of those councils that have to date for requests for special books and informa­ established indedendent library services, the tion from the participating libraries. If these result cannot be regarded as altogether satis­ requests cannot be satisfied within the region, factory, or the system as in any way perman­ they are forwarded to the central library. ent, and some form of co-operation among In Queensland these requests for special the councils themselves is strongly indicated. books or information are, of course, for­ When it passed the Libraries Act in 1943 warded to the Public Library of Queensland. the Legislative Assembly had in mind the The main advantages of the regional necessity for library co-operation among library system over the small independent councils. Section 17 (2) of the Act reads- municipal library are obvious. The latter "A Joint Local Authority within the type of library is always faced with the meaning of Part IX of the Local Gov­ difficulty of financing-and obtaming-suit­ ernment Acts may be constituted by the able trained staff to catalogue and classify Governor in Council by Order in Council its books, whereas under a regional system for the purpose of establishing, maintain­ all books are the property of the joint local ing and conducting a library facility as authority and are catalogued and classified a function of local government in respect by the regional librarian before being dis­ of such Joint Local Authority. More­ tributed to the participating libraries. More­ over any such Joint Local Authority shall over, the system of bulk book exchanges at have the power and authority to estab­ regular intervals among the participating lish, maintain, and conduct a circulating libraries through regional headquarters library either solely or in conjunction with means that every library is always assured any library established by it, and such of a plentiful supply of new books at a establishment shall also be a function of fraction of the cost that would be incurred local government under and pursuant to if the same programme were attempted by a the Local Government Acts which are council acting independently. Finally, super­ hereby applied and extended accordingly." vision of all participating libraries by a trained There is in fact no part of Queensland where regional librarian ensures that the local co-operation is not necessary to the attain­ librarians are tutored in the simple duties ment of satisfactory library standards. There with which they are entrusted; which means are areas of low population close to all our that book losses are kept to a minimum and cities where the only hope for a good that no request for a book or information municipal library service lies in co-operation on any subject is ever refused. with the more populous neighbouring councils. Administration of the regional library ser­ vice is carried out by a joint local authority Now, in New South Wales, Victoria and in accordance with Section 17 (2) of the Queensland, where library co-operation Libraries Acts, 1943 to 1949, which I have among neighbouring councils has been put quoted. When all councils in the region for­ into effect, the system has come to be known ward resolutions in favour of the regional as the Regional Library system, principally library service to the Library Board of because the participating councils usually Queensland, the Government, by Order in lie within a fairly well-defined geographical Council, establishes the joint local authority region. to administer the service. It is interesting There are four features usually associated to note that Queensland is the only State in with a regional library service. Firstly the Commonwealth that has such legislative there is the system of regular book exchange~ provision. In New South Wales and Victoria among the participating libraries through regional library services are established by the regional headquarters. Next there is legal agreement among the councils, the a union catalogue at regional headquarters local authority controlling the regional head­ of all books in the region. quarters usually undertaking to provide Mr. MARSDEN: I rise to a point of library service to the other councils in return order. The hon. member is reading his for an annual payment. speech. Orders in Council normally provide for Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I am of the each council to select one representative to opinion that the hon. member is quoting the board of the joint local authority. How­ from copious notes. ever, should one council have a preponder­ ance of financial responsibility, it can be Mr. RAE: I am sure the hon. member given a larger representation on the board. will agree that I have copious notes in order Take, for example, the case of the North­ to explain very fully to his unreceptive ear Western Regional Library Service Board, some very pertinent facts regarding the which is to conduct library services for the regional library services of Queensland. following councils:-Shires of Boulia, Burke, Supply (17 NOVEMBER) Supply 1575

Carpentaria, Cloncurry, Croydon, Etheridge, too far flung to be serviced with books from McKinlay, Mount Isa, and Richmond. The Brisbane, and I have already pointed out Mount Isa and Cloncurry Shire Councils that only a few miles from cities there are each el'ect three members, while the shires that are too small to conduct adequate McKinlay and Richmond Shire Councils each independent library services. The answer is, elect one member, and the Boulia, Burkc I think, the regional library system, which, Carpentaria, Etheridge and Croydon Shire with its twin accents on regional autonomy Councils elect the remaining member. and co-operation, still allows a good measure Once established, a regional library service of control over libraries to the various par­ board acts in the same manner as any other ticipating councils. However, co-operation local authority. Under the Local Govern­ in any shape or form demands a certain ment Acts it is legally bound to meet every amount of team work, and certain conces­ three months, and in the periods between sions on the part of a group here and there meetings its affairs are supervised hy its in order to ensure the final good for the clerk, who operates on a part-time basis and whole. Co-operation means the end of acts as its executive officer, and by its parochialism. regional librarian, who conducts its library The success of the regional libraries in service. Queensland, Great Britain, New South Wales The main functions of a regional library and Victoria results from the fact that they service board are, of course, to plan a pro­ are free libraries. These free libraries are a gramme of library service for each of its corollary of our State system of free educa­ participating libraries, and to lay down a tion. They are used by a large proportion policy relating to the quality and type of of the total population of the areas where library service. With regard to the four they are provided, whereas subscription regional library service boards at present libraries are used by only a small propor­ functioning in Queensland, these matters are, tion. broadly speaking, decided after consultation Providing as they do for the personal, with the Library Board of Queensland, which vocational, corporate, business and com­ sent an officer to the area prior to the munity interests of the people, free libraries formation of the regional library service are cultural, educational and informational board, and compiled a report which acted libraries. whereas subscription libraries are, as a guide. on the whole, recreational libraries which In addition to the North-Western Regional stock best-sellers, romances, and crime Library Service, which has been mentioned stories. already, there are three other regional library services in Queensland, namely, the In 1943, during the course of the debates South-Western Regional Library Service, on the Libraries Bill, all speakers, including comprising the shires of Balonne, Booringa, the then Premier and the Leader of the Bulloo, Murweh, Paroo, Quilpie, and Opposition, were united in their support for Tambo; the Central-Western Regional the system of free public libraries through­ Library Service, comprising the shires of out the length and breadth of Queensland in Aramac, Barcaldine, Barcoo, Blackall, Ilfra­ order to secure the establishment of these combe, Isisford, Jericho, and Winton; and free lending libraries as an aid to post-war the Central Highlands Regional Library development. Service, comprising the shires of Bauhinia, Following the appointment of the first Belyando, Duaringa, Emerald and Peak library board in 1945, to the present time 63 Downs. local authorities have established 92 free Initial results of these three regional libraries. library services have more than justified the Provision was also made under the Act faith of the 28 western councils which for the transfer of schools of arts to their pioneered the regional library movement. respective local authorities in order that they In the South-west, membership figures have might be reorganised and reopened as free risen steadily to 7,691, which represents municipal libraries available to all sections about one-quarter of the total population of of the community, including children. the area. Of this total, approximately 50 per cent. are children and young people. Schools of arts kept alive the concept of In the Central Highlands, membership library service during the early days of the figures have reached 3,583 out of a total State's development. However, as they were population of 11,310. In the Central-west, almost wholly dependent for their income out of a total population of 14,780, 5,252 upon subscriptions they entered a period of adults and children have joined the regional decline. Also they were dependent upon library service, while in the North-west, out voluntary committees for their administra­ of a total population of 29,190, there are tion. now 10,838 enrolled as free borrowers. Today, it is a very different outlook. What of the future of regional library We have subscribed well in this regard. services in Queensland? To my mind they Still, as with all these blessings that we are the answer to our municipal library have at the moment, we must continue to problems. Our non-metropolitan population strive towards improving this very welcome of approximately 900,000 is too high and addition to Queensland life. 1576 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (8.16 p.m.): This notice of the recent propaganda concerning evening, after some of the speeches emanating the setting of examination papers by the from hon. members on the Government university, particularly Senior examination benches, I was rather relieved to hear the papers. Last night I saw the Maths. I speech of the hon. member who has just Junior paper and it seemed to me that resumed his seat. It was reassuring and it was a reasonable paper if the students extremely pleasing to hear at least one hon. sitting for the examination had been given member paying some compliment to Labour ample time. Some university academic legislation in the field of education. I brilliants seem to think it is necessary for wondered why the hon. member made a children to have common sense and to be speech concentrating so much on libraries, able to reason and analyse the mathematical but of course I recalled that he was a problems posed for them in Maths. I. I bachelor. believe that young people at the tender I think I should reply to one or two age of 15 need a little time to do this comments made by Government members analysing, this reasoning, about which there particularly to the hon. member for is so much talk. Students get only 2 to Cooroora, who made many claims on behalf 2t hours to do the paper, yet in that time of the Minister as to what has been done have to calmly reason out, at 15 years to develop Queensland's education system. of age, what an examiner means, what he He said, too, that the Minister was respon­ intends, and what he wants in the answer. sible for the decentralisation of education In many cases it is not so much a matter in Queensland. The decentralisation of the of application to a question or the facts educational system in Queensland was com­ therein, but the fact that a child is not menced in 1948 by a Labour Government. given sufficient time to use his reasoning, Regional directors were appointed through­ which has been stressed so much. out the State, and at that time it was I think, too, that some comment should intended to start, as far as possible through be made on the present intention of the the different areas of Queensland, staffing university to have two separate passes for schools with graduates from training colleges. the Senior examination. In other words, The foundation for the development of the we are getting back to the days of the regional system of education was laid by depression years when the Moore Govern­ the Labour Government, and the Minister ment was in power in Queensland, and has simply built upon it. we had a graded form of Scholarship A great deal has been said about school examination passes. If a student got 60 transport services. In order to combat some or 65 per cent. in the Scholarship he was of this propaganda it is interesting to read allowed to go only to a State school, some of the documents that emanate from not to a school of his choosing. It he got the Commonwealth Statistician's office. In an "A" pass, he was allowed to go to some doing so, we find that Queensland is spend­ other school. ing less on the transportation of school Perhaps this is another way in which the children than any other State in the Government intends progressively to curtail Commonwealth. the number of students going through from Mr. Ewan: No! Senior to tertiary education. Perhaps it is the method the university is going to use in Mr. LLOYD: The hon. member for Roma the future. I do not know whether it has says "No." In New South Wales the been done in concert with the Government; expenditure is 13s. 2d. a head; in Victoria but it strikes me that certain students, it is 17s. 9d.; in Western Australia 28s. 5d.; although not showing brilliance in the in Tasmania 35s. 6d.; in Queensland Senior, could in their tertiary education in lls. 8d., which can be compared with South later years show their real ability and give Australia's expenditure of lls. 9d. greater service to the community than would perhaps many of the more brilliant Mr. Pizzey: We are getting better value academic students who, in many cases, have for our money. graduated from the university but have proved themselves useless as practical men. Mr. LLOYD: That would be quite right. This is applicable to many people who The Minister does not spend any money graduate with brilliant theoretical passes to get better value. but, on the practical side, find it impossible In relation to metropolitan transport to show the promise they displayed in their services for school children Queensland is theoretical tasks. If there is an examination, one of the few States in the Commonwealth a standard is established and any child which makes no provision to meet the cost who reaches it must be allowed to go pro­ of transporting school children in the city gressively through to the university if he area. In most other States such provision wants to and can afford to. is made; in effect, it builds up expenditure on the transportation of school children in There has been a great deal of talk from other States. the Government benches about the alteration of the system of progression from the I have one or two other comments to primary school to the secondary school. At make. The Minister seems to have taken the moment this has caused a fairly heavy Supply [17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1577 impact, and a financial burden, on parents consideration than they are receiving now. who have a number of children attending I do not believe they should be left in the school. It is all right to say that no arbitrary hands of the university, without additional expense is incurred for secondary any approval by Parliament of whatever is education compared with primary education. decided. I do not think that academic free­ There is, because in many cases there are dom was ever intended to go as far as that. school uniforms to be provided and the text­ There are one or two other matters that books are entirely different. In many cases I intended to raise. I will, however, con­ they are set by the university and are con­ clude on that point, as I realise that the tinually changing year by year. I can House has come to an understanding to allow remember when I was at school-it is about several other speakers to discuss matters of 30 years ago-the majority of the textbooks education. were standarised. A textbook that was used in 1930 would still be in use four or six Mr. PILBEAM (Rockhampton South) years later. (8.26 p.m.): In my speech in the debate on the Estimates of the Department of Educa­ Mr. Pizzey: It was a pretty static world tion, I touched briefly on the activities of between 1930 and 1940. the Arts Council of Australia, the Australian Mr. LLOYD: The text books do not alter Elizabethan Theatre Trust, and the Queens­ that much. World history does not alter land Symphony Orchestra, particularly the to the extent that the textbooks have to be extension of their activities to country areas continually changed year by year and so of the State. These things are so important create this burden of additional expense on in the lives of those who live in these parts a family which in many cases finds it a of Queensland that they warrant more than a great hardship to send children on to passing reference. secondary education. It is necessary for Up till a decade ago one of the major dis­ parents to do that these days. It is the advantages of living in a provincial city was responsibility of the Government, as far as the lack of high-class artistic and cultural possible, to ensure that the cost of that entertainment. For those who formerly lived education be kept as low as possible. I in cities favoured by regular visits of world­ instance where there are many children in class operatic companies, drama groups, and a family. One child goes to secondary ballet companies, life in a provincial city education this year, another will go the constituted some form of exile. Dramatic following year, and so on; each year it is changes have come over the scene in country necessary to purchase a string of new text­ areas in recent years through increased books. I do not know where it is emanating interest by this Government in the activities from. I understand that the textbooks are of the Arts Council of Australia, the Austra­ set by the Queensland University at present. lian Elizabethan Theatre Trust, and the In many cases these people are out of this Queensland Symphony Orchestra, I do not world in their knowledge of the requirements mean lip service only, but increased of the ordinary family. Some of them live financial support. I will prove what I say in a world of their own. I am not critical by quoting the figures that illustrate this of them; I think their service is of tre­ financial support. When this Government mendous value to the community, par­ took office, the State Government grant ticularly their research work and the tutorial made available to the Australian Elizabethan services they give to students attending Theatre Trust was £5,000 per annum. This universities. But at the same time they do grant was increased in 1962 to £6,000, and not exhibit a very high degree of under­ in 1963 to £12,000. It is £12,000 again this standing of the real problems facing the year. family man at the present time. I think that if the Minister follows through with Similarly, the annual grant by the Govern­ not only his spoken intention, but his implied ment to the Queensland Symphony intention, to take over the Senior examina­ Orchestra was increased to £12,500 in 1963 tion from the university, he will be doing and £22,500 in the following year. a service to the State and its people. I A similar substantial increase has beeP. thought the Minister had implied that he made in the grant to the Arts Council of was considering having the Department of Australia. In 1961-62 the State grant to Education take over the conducting of the that body was £500 per annum. In 1962-63 Senior Public examination. it was increased to £1,000, and in 1963-64 to £1,500. This year the grant is £4,000, Mr. Pizzey: I will tell you about that. which shows a very substantial increase. I used the word "run" loosely. What is very important to me is that these Mr. LLOYD: This could create a great increased grants were made so that added service to the community by, for example, opportunities could be given to the benefit­ minimising the constant alterations in the ing bodies-I have named them already-to list of textbooks required by the university extend their activities into country areas, for Senior students. A board consisting of and they have taken advantage of this fully representatives of the university and the by extending first-class shows such as ballet, Department of Education could be estab­ opera and dramatic works as far afield as lished to give many of these matters more Mt. Is a and to many smaller and widely 1578 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply scattered centres of population in Queens­ Mr. PILBEAM: No, but I am telling the land. The State Symphony Orchestra, which, hon. member that it was supported, and of course, is supported primarily by the supported very handsomely, in Rockhamp­ Australian Broadcasting Commission and the ton. We are very proud of that. Commonwealth Government, has been able to maintain its regular annual visit to Rock­ The people of Rockhampton have been hampton, and I assure hon. members that it able to see such outstanding plays as Arthur is a highlight in our life up there and in all Miller's "A View from the Bridge", the the other parts of Queensland that are Australian productions "The Shifting Heart" visited by the orchestra. The people of the and "Summer of the Seventeenth Doll" and State have come to know its conductor, Mr. they have been favoured with a visit from Pekarek, its leader, Mr. George White, and the National Ballet Company, which had a all the other members of the orchestra. wonderfully successful tour of Queensland. Next year the Queensland Ballet Company Mr. Wallis-Smith: Once a year. is to visit Rockhampton, and we are also to see the Elizabethan Opera Company and the Mr. PILBEAM: We receive a visit from Young Elizabethan Players. I think that the Queensland Symphony Orchestra each everyone who has seen these young people year, and this has been augmented by four perform Shakespearean plays, particularly subscription concerts, which give people in for the benefit of school children, will country areas an opportunity of hearing in realise the benefits of the endeavours of person world-class artists that we would which I am now speaking. otherwise hear only on records. When shows such as these first came to It is true that in the early days the Rockhampton, the question was raised as to Government of New South Wales began the whether they would affect local shows country tours of the Arts Council of Aus­ adversely. On the contrary, their effect has tralia and the Elizabethan Theatre Trust. been to lift the standard of local production. Mr. O'Donnell: Financed by the New We have in Rockhampton a Musical Union South Wales Arts Council into Queensland. and a Little Theatre and now, every time they produce a show, they play to capacity Mr. PILBEAM: It was as a result of houses. Their visits have induced the people heavy losses made on these tours that the of Rockhampton to engage in the project of Government of Queensland stepped into the building a first -class theatre and they are breach, and it has been responsible for the presently engaged in constructing what tours in recent years. Besides enabling would be quite the best little theatre club people in country centres to see first-class in Australia with two-storey clubrooms and shows, most of the branches of the Arts a shell at the back of the Town Hall. Council of Australia-! might say that The whole community has been uplifted Rockhampton has probably the strongest as a result of the visits of these very fine branch in Australia outside the capital cities organisations. I mention these things because -have been able to build fairly strong they probably constitute some of the lesser financial reserves. They are now guarantee­ known things that the Government is doing, ing shows and making profits from them, and by this means assisting young and although they are certainly not among the talented local artists to further their careers. least of the work being done by it. I am proud to know that these organisations A wonderful new world of entertainment have the Government's support in these has been opened up for country centres as ventures. a result of this Government's support, because, among other things, we have been It is well known that no profit is made able to hear world-famous artists such as by the members of such organisations as Ronal Jackson-- the Australian Elizabethan Theatre Trust or the Arts Council. It is well known that Mr. Marsden: Where did you get your they are struggling for finance and it is brief from? my sincere wish that the Government will give these people increased support because Mr. PILBEAM: I was the president of they are doing a wonderful job not only the branch in Rockhampton at its in furthering their own ambitions but in inception and a member till recently, bringing to the country areas of Queensland so I know something of this entertainment that they would not other­ subject. I can tell hon. members that wise enjoy. I thank these young men and a production of "The Sentimental Bloke" women, who are dedicated to their work was recently put on in Rockhampton. The in the theatre. local branch guaranteed that it would take £225 in Rockhampton. The show played for I realise that other speakers are to follow three nights and a matinee and grossed but I thought I should take the opportunity nearly £2,000, which was the most out­ of thanking the Government for its support standing take in any provincial city in of the musical and cultural bodies of Queens­ Australia. land and to assure it that its work in this Mr. O'Donnell: They did not fail it in the regard is thoroughly appreciated by people Central West, either. in the country areas of the State. Supply [17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1579

Mr. CAREY (Albert) (8.37 p.m.): I shall out heavy rentals for a hall they are very dispense with the usual congratulatory remarks anxious to build a theatre. I am asking to the Minister and his departmental officers the Minister to give them assistance, because I have some very important things but not by way of a grant or subsidy. I to submit to them which will assist my own realise that the money available to the electorate. I am not at all upset about Department of Education is probably more being parochial when I ask for something urgently required for the education of our for my own electorate. That is why I young people. However, the people of whom was sent here. I speak are anxious to borrow money on However, I should like to say that the their property, and they ask that the Minister for Education is very keen on his loan be guaranteed by the Govern­ job and realises how important education is ment. In that way they could establish their for everyone in the State. He remembered own hall. They look after adult education how important it was even to educate in the area and are doing an excellent job in members of Parliament because he arranged a training a considerable number of young marvellous trip for us to Cape York. It was people. a valuable experience and we learned a good The Minister has visited the Eagle Heights deal about the aboriginal settlements and State School. What I have to say now has mission stations in Cape York Peninsula and some bearing on what the hon. member for the Torres Strait Island group. I am sure Salisbury had to say. The Eagle Heights then even members of the Opposition who are State School is rather peculiar in its own interjecting learned a considerable amount way inasmuch as the grounds carry a pro­ from their trip around that area. lific growth of kikuyu grass. This cannot be One of the most important matters cut by an ordinary lawnmower. The parents I should like to submit for the Minister's of children at the school are prepared to consideration-! hope that I will get full lend a £1,000 piece of equipment in the form support from hon. members in this Chamber of a tractor. Now they are asking for a -is that some help and assistance be given bracken-bruiser cutting machine to use to local organisations, particularly those behind the tractor to cut the grass. Although established on the coastal belt in areas that a subsidy is paid to parents and citizens' have been declared sanctuaries for birds associations and school committees for the and animals. I should like to see some purchase of implements of this nature financial assistance given to rifle clubs purchased through their funds, if this com­ who establish a small-bore rifle range. mittee is prepared to utilise a piece of its I am very confident that many members of own machinery valued at £1,000, surely a this House can remember when they bracken-bruiser machine or a tractor-driven wanted to learn to use a pea-rifle or a small­ rotary mower should be made available to bore rifle they were able to take a loan it at no cost whatever. It is only a matter of father's and go out into the bush and of £60 to £100 and I feel that the Govern­ perhaps shoot birds they had no right to ment could well give consideration to provid­ shoot. Because of the careful attention of ing this extra facility. the Minister for Primary Industries and his I wish to give the hon. member for officers, this is not happening today. There­ Balonne an opportunity to say a few words fore, the 16-to-18-year-olds, particularly those so I will be brief, but I should like to living close to the big cities and towns, have ask the Minister to give serious consideration very little opportunity of learning how to to the building of a technical college in carry a firearm, let alone use one. I submit Southport. Everybody knows the tremend­ that this is necessary. ous growth of my area, which I am very Mr. Davies: Why don't you build one proud to represent. yourself? Honourable Members interjected. Mr. CAREY: That is a very good inter­ Mr. CAREY: The very best area in this jection. I am very pleased the hon. member State. There is none better! for Maryborough made it. We have excellent rifle clubs at Southport, Nerang, Pimpama Whilst I could probably be blinded with and Ormeau. They are very anxious to estab­ science by being told there are not lish a small-bore rifle range. I think it is Yet sufficient apprentices in the area to necessary that the Government supply establish a school, I assure hon. members, a small amount of money for ammunition. with the number of industries being established on the coast, particularly in the I have heard the hon. member for Rock­ Albert Shire-it is an excellent shire with hampton South claim his arts group wonderful councillors who encourage the in Rockhampton is doing a fine job. I can establishment of industries in the area-at make the same claim for my Little Theatre a very early date we will need a technical group on the Gold Coast, which for many college at Southport. I ask the Minister years has functioned to the satisfaction of to remember this and to make provision for the people in the Southport-Surfers Paradise it in the Budget next year; if not for next area. These people established themselves Year, for the year after. financially by becoming the owners of a large piece of land. So that they can put Time has not permitted me to develop on their own productions without paying my case in support of these projects as 1580 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

fully as I should like, but I am confident It is interesting to note that prior to 1957 the Minister will give sympathetic considera­ the Balonne electorate had not one secondary tion to my requests. department. I am proud to say that today six secondary departments serve my Mr. BEARDMORE (Balonne) (8.46 p.m.): electorate. It gives me great pleasure to I should not like the opportunity to pass visit these towns that are so well served without saying something about education. and to see the obvious pleasure and apprecia­ Much has been said by hon. members con­ tion shown by the students and their parents. cerning the wonderful progress of education Education has been brought to the people in Queensland. I believe that this progress of the Outback, giving them equal oppor­ could never have taken place if the right tunities to further their studies after com­ Minister had not been in the saddle, ably pleting primary education and giving them assisted by officers of the right calibre, opportunities equal to those of city children, dedicated to the job they have in hand. something that was not available to them The State of Queensland is particularly seven short years ago. fortunate in having the Hon. Jack Pizzey as Minister for Education. We should Not only has the Department of Education feel happy that the young people of spent large sums of money on school Queensland in this day and age are able buildings, but teaching staff accommodation to take advantage of the wonderful oppor­ has been provided. That is something that tunities that have been made available to in the past years teachers had to arrange for them so that they can equip themselves for themselves. Why shouldn't the teaching staff the life ahead of them. If any one Govern­ be looked after? A satisfied teacher gives ment department has justified itself in the of his best, and his own peace of mind little over seven years that this Government contributes to the progress of the profession has been in office it is the Department of and creates harmony in school matters. Education. The benefits that must result In this regard, self-contained twin units from these opportunities must help our have been made available by the department. young people, and the State will undoubtedly They are splendidly furnished and have benefit because many of them will eventually everything necessary for the comfort of take their place in the business and pro­ teachers. In many cases married male fessional world. teachers have been provided with homes through the Queensland Housing Commission. In the past when a country youth left Sporting facilities, in the way of playing primary school there was no place for him fields, have been established at considerable to go so he perhaps drifted into the shearing cost, and they are very important. Little sheds or into some other menial job and, remains to be done. in a great many cases, his talent was lost to the State. In many instances it was Not only have schooling and sporting beyond the financial capacity of parents to facilities improved; school buses have played further their children's education because their part in the field of education. On they were mostly working people who could this point, it is worthy of note that not one not afford to send their children away to school bus service operated in Balonne when gain a higher education, thus much talent the present Government took office in 1957. was lost. Fortunately, that sad state of I am glad to say that today 27 school buses affairs has changed and education of a serve the children in my electorate. They higher standard is available to any children are a wonderful benefit to the country who care to take advantage of the changed children, who are now able to mix and conditions in their home towns. compete with other children and learn to live with them. Children get away from It is remarkable that, where it was really their parents, particularly their mothers, for a problem to get enough scholars to justify the day. Further, the parents are relieved the starting of a high-top, in every case of the responsibility of teaching their children where a secondary department has been by correspondence, which, although it has established both parents and scholars quickly some merit, at the same time places an realised the benefits available. Students extra burden on them. In many cases numbers have increased beyond the wildest mothers are not equipped to help children to hopes of the Department of Education, attain the best results. making it necessary to add to class accom­ I am particularly pleased to say that six modation until in most cases it has become new schools have been established in sparsely necessary to add to secondary buildings. populated areas in my electorate where These school buildings are a credit to the previously correspondence lessons were the various country towns where they have been only means of education. established. In conclusion, I congratulate the Minister Recently I had the privilege of accom­ for Education on the undoubted success panying the Minister for Education on a of his department, not only in Balonne but tour of the schools in my electorate, where throughout Queensland. It is a wonderful he was guest speaker at five of the secondary story that stands telling over and over schools in Balonne. On the same trip he again. I venture to say that the Minister declared open new high-tops in Dirranbandi for Education will go down in history for and Surat, an event which even a few years his wonderful contribution to education in ago did not seem remotely possible. this State. Supply (17 NOVEMBER) Supply 1581

Hon. J. C. A. PIZZEY (Isis-Minister President of the Professorial Board, five for Education) (8.53 p.m.), in reply: I am representatives of non-departmental secondary glad that hon. members have had this schools, three of departmental secondary further opportunity of discussing the schools, two of the Queensland Assistant Estimates of the Department of Education Masters' Association and Queensland Assis­ because so many of them showed such tant Mistresses' Association, which again are enthusiasm last week that others did not outside the department, and one representa­ have an opportunity of telling the story tive of technical institutions. of what is happening in their electorates. The Board of Post-primary Studies and Mr. Bennett: Clem Lack did not have Examinations is a statutory body, which is it ready by then. not in any way dominated by the department. Its functions are to make recommendations to Mr. PIZZEY: The hon. member may have the Minister concerning curricula and courses a ghost writer, but Government back­ of study in post-primary schools and institu­ benchers have not. The hon. member for tions appertaining to the Junior Public Balonne prepared his own speech. Govern­ Examination, and to make recommendations ment back-benchers know their electorates to the Minister concerning arrangements that and know what has been done there. may be necessary for the conducting of the Members of the Opposition also know, but Junior Public Examination and the issuing of they are not going to tell because, if they certificates connected with it. did, it would discredit their own Government. Mr. Bennett: Why haven't private schools A great deal has appeared in the Press got a representative on the board? recently, and is in the minds of many parents and students, concerning examina­ Mr. PIZZEY: If the hon. member for tions. The subject of an external examination South Brisbane had been listening, he would is a very important one to all students. have heard me say that the board includes During the closure of the debate last Friday five representatives of non-departmental I did mention, perhaps carelessly, that maybe secondary schools. The private schools there­ the time is ripe for the Department of fore have greater representation than the Education to run the Senior Examination. I State schools have. have been taken up on the word "run". I probably used it loosely, and the Deputy It will always be the university's right­ Leader of the Opposition said the same and rightly so-to prescribe the requiremen~s thing, namely, that it is time the Department of matriculation in any faculty. The um­ of Education took over the Senior Examina­ versity should be competent to determine its tion. It depends what it meant by the requirements for entry. Prior to 1960, the word "run". The implication was that it University of Queensland appointed examiners should be run administratively by the depart­ for the Junior and Senior Public Examina­ ment. Let us look at the system of tions. They conducted the examinations and examination. dealt with all administrative matters pertain­ ing to them. The Department of Education Mr. Sherrington: You are trying to get had nothing to do with the Junior and Senior out of it now. examinations prior to 1960. The university set the papers, marked them, and issued cer­ Mr. PIZZEY: No. The hon. member tificates. The Board of Post-primary Studies would say that we run the Junior Examina­ and Examinations made some recommenda­ tion; but we do not set the papers and we tions concerning courses and examination do not examine them. Let us go back procedures but exercised no control over the to the State Scholarship Examination, which, until last year, was the terminal examination examinations. of children at the primary-school level. It With its increasing enrolments, the uni­ is true that the department did set the versity desired to be relieved of the burden papers. They were set by departmental of conducting the Junior Examination, and officers and examined by members of the made a request that this responsibility be department. As the number of candidates assumed by some other body. This was grew, the field of examiners JB.ad to be approved by Cabinet, and the Board of Post­ extended, but these were truly examinations primary Studies and Examinations assumed that were not only administered but run control of the examination and the adminis­ in every way by the Department of Education. trative work associated with it. When one gets beyond the primary stage Mr. O'Donnell: Would that not also involve and into the secondary field, there is set up a the idea of the school-leaving age being Board of Post-primary Studies and Examina­ raised, and therefore it would be a matter tions. This board was set up by the Univers­ for the Department of Education to attend ity of Queensland Acts, 1909 to 1941, which to? made provision for the board of which the chairman is the Director-General of Educa­ Mr. PIZZEY: Not necessarily. It is not a tion. The membership of the board is not valid argument to say that we should be departmentally controlled. It consists of four responsible only for an examination that per­ representatives of the department, one of the tains to the compulsory school-leaving age. Public Service Commissioner, seven of the We have a responsibility far beyond the age University of Queensland, including the up to which it is compulsory to attend school. 1582 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

The first Junior Public Examination under a public examination the results of which this arrangement was conducted in 1960. The sometimes determine their job opportunities: Board of Post-primary Studies and Examina­ after they leave school. tions now recommends Junior courses. The board appoints the chief examiner and two Mr. O'Donnell: Is there any policy in assessors for each subject, and approves the setting an examination paper that the work list of assistant examiners and examination becomes more difficult later in the paper? procedures. The department has nothing to Mr. PIZZEY: There is no provision for do with the setting of the papers and nothing that. to do with the examination, except very indirectly through the independent Board of Mr. O'Donnell: It would not be a bad Post-primary Studies. idea. I should like hon. members to note that Mr. PIZZEY: It is up to the Board of there is a chief examiner and two assessors. Post-primary Studies and Examinations. It is very difficult for anyone to set an exam­ ination paper on any subject, whether for Mr. O'Donnell: Some of the Scholarship the Junior, Senior, or university examination, papers used to have a snag near the that gives the average child an opportunity beginning or the end. of passing and yet tests the brilliant child within the confined time of the prescribed Mr. PIZZEY: One cannot assess these hours of the examination. One could sit things, but usually there is a progression in down and work out the paper oneself, but the difficulty of the questions. even then the time taken to do it would The Department of Education looks after not be anywhere near comparable with the all the administration. It arranges for the time taken by a student. It becomes dan­ examination centres and the supervisors; it gerous if one person alone sets the paper arranges for the sending out of the actual and determines the questions and the length of paper on which the children write; it arranges the paper, so we always have two assessors. for the collection of fees that have to be paid They are senior men, not necessarily in the for the examination and for the recording of Department of Education. They may come the results afterwards. from the university, from a Catholic school, from the Church of England Grammar Mr. O'Donnell: That is a question: why School, or from another grammar '.chool. do you charge a fee for the Junior? If they are particularly good at a certain subject, they may become assessors in that Mr. PIZZEY: A fee has always been subject. charged. A fee has been charged for 30 or 40 years. The assessors go through the papers that the chief examiner has set and discuss them Mr. O'Donnell: Why charge a fee now? with him to see whether there are any trick Mr. PIZZEY: For the very same reason questions that should not be there or ques­ as it was charged 30 or 40 years ago­ tions beyond the scope of the syllabus, or because the Government believes that to give their idea of whether the paper is £30,000 or £40,000 can be better spent in too long. It is very difficult to know how other fields. If the children are to be pro­ long a child of 16 years will take to go vided with free textbooks, the money cannot through a paper. One could not get the be spent in other directions that may be answer by sitting down and doing the paper less important. oneself because one's thought processes do not work at the same pace as the children's. The board now recognises the Junior Only those who have experience in setting courses, appoints a chief examiner and two papers at schools term after term and assesors. and approves a list of examiners_ observing the reactions of children can About the only case in which I have inter­ make a reasonably accurate estimation of fered through my departmental officers was whether a paper is too long for the time when I heard that the board had given one person 2,000 papers to mark in three weeks. allowed or whether it is reasonable. For or something of the sort, and I did not think this reason, we have a chief examiner and the children would get a fair deal when he two assessors for each subject. \Vhen that had to mark so many papers. is determined, the other members of the Board of Post-primary Studies and Examina­ We laid down the maximum number that tions do not know what is in the papers, one examiner could have. I forget what nor do any departmental officers other than the fee is; I think it is Ss. a paper for Junior and 1Os. for Senior but I do not the Chief Examinations Officer. He has a remember the exact amount. However, r select staff of very few who print the papers cannot see how they could give more than under his personal and close supervision and 5 or 10 minutes to each paper if they a few who take them and distribute them to marked as many as that. Today there is the places where the examinations are being a maximum number that any one person held. The strictest security control of the can have. Some greedy people might think papers is maintained so that no child in they can make £100 marking papers and, Queensland can get an advantage unfairly in if it meant marking them at a rate allowing Supply [17 NovEMBER] Supply 1583 themselves only four hour's sleep a night, Primary Industries or the chemical indus­ I cannot see how they could be fair with tries in Brisbane or the oil refineries when them. they are built. There will be opportunities there for girls as well as for boys. Now we have that well under control; but it is merely the mechanics of examina­ Mr. O'Donnell: May I ask a question, tion, not anything to do with the examina­ now that you mention other forms of tion paper itself. The answer to the question education? Why is it that we hear, during "Who runs the Junior now?" is that the examination periods, criticism of papers in Department of Education runs the Junior the Junior and Senior Examinations but we examination. That is the term that is used never hear any criticism of examinations set but it does not mean that our departmental by the technical colleges? And do you officers set and mark the papers. In fact, think it is right for principals to comment they do not see any of the papers until on the difficulty of papers during the the children sit for the examination. examination? Now, let us get on to the Senior. It Mr. PIZZEY: I would hestitate to deprive has been the practice for the University of them of that right. I do not think it does Queensland to assume full responsibility for a great deal of harm. the conduct of the Senior Public Examina­ Mr. Lloyd interjected. tion. The Board of Post-primary Studies has therefore not exercised any authority Mr. PIZZEY: If it was at the beginning in this field. Generally, the name of the of an examination it could affect students chief examiner in the subject is not known in their subsequent papers. It might make before the examination. Although there may it more difficult for them to do well in be assessors for some examination papers, the next paper. the board has no knowledge of any fixed procedure. In other words, it is the univer­ Mr. Lloyd: Any comment like that by sity, probably the faculty concerned with the principal would not help them, either. the particular subject, that decides on the examiner, the person who sets the paper Mr. PIZZEY: No, it may not; but the and who organises the markers of the Press will get comments from the students, papers. In no way does the Board of Post­ anyhow. primary Studies or the Department of Mr. O'Donnell: Why don't you hear any Education have any say in the standard of of this criticism about the technical college the examination paper at that level. That examinations? is understandable, I suppose, because origin­ ally Senior was the university entrance Mr. PIZZEY: Up to the present they do qualification and it was only right and not seem to have taken the technical college proper that the university should determine examination quite so seriously. It has not its own requirements for entering its been compulsory in many of the trades to faculties. pass all the examinations. It has been in As the years have passed, more than two certain trades, like the electrical trades, but {)ut of every three children who go beyond in baking, barbering and bricklaying, for Junior go on without intending to attend example, they proceed progressively through the university. A recent survey indicated their years and get their qualifications after that 28 per cent. of those attending post­ serving their time. Junior classes in the metropolitan high Mr. O'Donnell: But you get no complaints. schools were intending to go to university. Of the others, some wanted to go to the Mr. PIZZEY: I do not think they regard Teachers' Training College, some to com­ the examinations as being so vital to their merce, some to the banks and insurance future. They are, and they will be in the companies and some to positions to qualify future. themselves further for a certificate course at the technical college. Everyone now is Mr. Hughes: A number of people have being tested at the standard the university criticised some of the papers feeling that they requires for matriculation purposes. have been set that way to obtain a higher failure rate, thus imposing a restriction on The whole of the ideas and thoughts university entry. about post-Junior education are changing. One innovation is the establishment of a Mr. PIZZEY: I do not believe that at all. certificate course or a technician course at I can assure the House that there has never the Technical College. I hope that many been any discussion between any officers of of our boys and girls, instead of going on the department or myself and the university to Senior in the normal way, will go down regarding a higher standard to restrict entry. to the technical college and take a technician That has never happened in the past and I course whether an engineering course or do not think it will ever happen. a course to enable them to become draughts­ men, or assistants to technicians, or labora­ Mr. Hughes: You do not expect there tory technicians required in the Blood Bank will be any quota system for entry to the •or the laboratory of the Department of university? 1584 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. PIZZEY: That is another problem. indicated by their papers that they have done I may have time to deal with that later. a considerable amount of work over the two Only one out of three is going on to the years, to show that they are far above those university and we have these different classes who can produce only a Junior pass. It will of post-Junior education. We have a very show that they have not got an "A", "B", or good one down here for office workers after "C" pass for university matriculation. Junior, and we will probably have one for Mr. Hughes: In bringing this into effect, those wanting to go nursing-a pre-pro­ did you raise the "A", "B", or "C" in per­ fessional year in which they will get a centage for classification? basic training in a particular subject relevant to a particular profession or trade-- Mr. PIZZEY: The hon. member asks me Mr. Hanson: You have laid emphasis on if I raised-- tenchnical education and spoken about Mr. Hughes: I did not mean you person­ bringing it to tertiary level. You have ally. mentioned that certain students might find difficulty in obtaining the necessary academic Mr. PIZZEY: I do not know. I do not qualifications to matriculate to the univer­ concern myself with those things. That is not sity-- my business. This is just to show our attitude to it. I should hate to think I should ever Mr. PIZZEY: We will determine the suggest what would be the standard for an educational level for the tertiary course at "A", "B", or "C" pass. It is left to the chief the technical colleges, that is, the full-time examiners to decide what is an "A", "B", or diploma courses which will be instituted for "C", or "P" pass. Not even the Board of the first time next year. What I intended Post-primary Studies knows. to convey, and did not have time recently to do, was that I believe it will not be very Mr. Hanson: Will they be able to sit for long before we have two boards. There will the supplementary? be a Junior Secondary School Studies Board acting in the same way as the Board of Mr. PIZZEY: Yes. The hon. member for Post-primary Studies and, in a similar sense, Townsville North referred to the schools on a board to deal with the Senior examination. Magnetic Island. It is true that we intended It will not be a departmental board. It to build a central school at Magnetic Island. will have representatives of the university­ It is ideally suited for it. Unfortunately, we probably a greater percentage than the have not been able to maintain that project Junior one because it has some relevance to in the works programme although it was on university work-representatives from it at the beginning of this year. Just before private schools and State schools, and from the beginning of the financial year, there was the Head-masters' Association. It will be a State basic-wage increase of 14s. and a £1 a representative board that will act in the same way about the Senior as the present increase in the Federal rate. The immediate Board of Post-primary Studies acts for the result was that, although I had my works Junior. It will set the papers but we will programme already outlined for the year, issue the certificates. Instead of its being after discussion of the problem with the a university Senior Public Examination, it Department of Works it was realised that we will be a departmental Senior Public would have to chop £500,000 off it. That is Examination. We will not be setting the to say, the same works programme would papers as someone suggested. call for an extra £500,000. Because of the Recently there have been discussions higher cost of the projects we could not get between departmental officers and the uni­ ovals built, and 12 schools were to get ovals. versity about the level of passes. There are However, they can wait for ovals whereas "A", "B" and "C" passes. In years gone by, they cannot wait for classrooms or other back in our time, there were "merits" and essentials. The only school that got an oval "passes"-only two grades. However, for the was Coorparoo, because of its great need. It last 20 years there have been "A", "B", and is not in a Liberal or Country Party elec­ "C" passes. Our departmental officers and torate; its need was the greatest so it got the responsible members of the university preference. All schools had their budgets cut. have been concerned about some of the students who do not quite make the grade. We had to stop the transfer of domestic There are many young people who perhaps science buildings. Where primary children had pass in one or two subjects and just miss out to walk half a mile, three-quarters of a mile, in three or four others. They have nothing or a mile, it would have been pleasing to be to show an employer to whom they are able to transfer the domestic science section applying for a job. over, but we just could not get our works programme through. Mr. O'Donnell: If you gave the percentages, they would be able to show those. We cut out most of the new central schools because the children already had schools. Mr. PIZZEY: Rather than percentages, Magnetic Island, for instance, could manage they have recommended that a "P" pass be for another year with four one-teacher schools included this year. That is not done to give though it would be desirable to have a central everyone a pass. It is for the ones who have school. Supply [17 NOVEMBER] Supply 1585

It is a fact that such increases have sud­ I should like to mention something about denly thrown the whole programme com­ the Aboriginal Welfare Fund, which is a pletely out of gear. We had to reassess our fund for aboriginal wards or people who programme and cut out any works that were come under the Act. Sometimes the advance­ not quite essential however desirable. ment league seems to think that the depart­ ment gets this money and that it is not The hon. member for Townsville North used for the purpose for which it should knows that the largest amount to be spent on be used. Here is an interesting story that any high school this year will be spent on the is well worth reporting. In 1926 a half­ Townsville High School because we are mov­ caste aboriginal girl-1 will not give her ing from the old building, separating the name-26 years of age, a ward of the technical college, and concentrating on the Department of Native Affairs, married a new high school at Ross River. For that European at Toowong in Brisbane without reason, it is only fair that an area that is the consent of the Chief Protector of getting special treatment at the moment Aboriginals as laid down in the Act. After should be considered on the same basis as her marriage, the department lost contact the others in relation to some refinements with her. Apparently, she proceeded to that are desirable but not absolutely essential. New South Wales. In 1943 further inquiries The hon. member dealt with the transport were made in an endeavour to trace her of school children from Magnetic Island. as a Commonwealth Savings Bank account The children travel to Townsville by launch containing £77 Os. 6d. was held in her in the morning and are taken by bus to the name. Inquiries proved negative. On school. In the afternoon they have to wait 6 March, 1945, the amount, which had then until the Hayles launch leaves at 5.25. I think grown with interest to £81 4s. 2d., was we have succeeded in getting it back to transferred from the savings bank account 5.15, which, of course, is still too late. We to the Aboriginal Protection of Property examined the problem. These children enjoy Account and was duly registered in this the same privileges as other children through­ person's name. In December 1963 at New­ out Queensland in regard to fares; we pay all castle, New South Wales, Nellie-I can give fares over 5s. a week if we cannot get a her Christian name-applied for social service transport service for them. If they are not benefits. As a result of normal inquiries receiving that, I will make sure they do. pursued by the Department of Social Services, They are entitled to it just as children the Director of Social Services sought verifica­ anywhere else are. tion of the birth and marriage dates from the Director of Native Affairs. The Aboriginal We said to the parents, "We realise that Welfare Board in New South Wales was then this is too late for the children to be contacted, and Nellie was conclusively returning home. If you can organise a identified as being identical with the Nellie launch service for £5 a day, or £1,000 a so-and-so in whose name an account was year, we will approve of it." They may held. Some weeks ago a cheque for the have to subsidise it themselves. So far amount of £130 lls. 6d. was forwarded to they have not been able to organise such Nellie and duly handed to her from the a service. If the number of children increases, Aboriginal Welfare Fund, representing the we could go to £8 a day, but at present balance of account of £81 4s. 2d. plus there are not a great many children using accumulated interest to 31 May, 1964, the service. Those who are eligible now calculated on a yearly basis at the rates use their service and get a refund of all applicable to savings bank accounts. charges over 5s. a week. That is the story of a half-caste aboriginal Some hon. members spoke about the girl who left against the permission of the education of aboriginals. Since July last Director in 1926. When she left, she had year, the Department of Education has taken a saving bank balance of £77. Nearly 40 over the running and the control of the years later she turned up in New South schools in the aboriginal settlements at Cher­ Wales as a married woman with a family. bourg, Woorabinda, Yarrabah and Bamaga. She was identified, and waiting in a saving Although we have not taken over completely bank to be sent to her was an amount of at Bamaga, it is staffed entirely with depart­ £130. What was done there was the normal mental teachers. We accept their transfer. procedure followed in such cases. They do their service willingly. We have already done a good deal to improve the Mr. Wallis-Smith: What happens when education of these native children. an aboriginal under the Act dies? Undoubtedly the time will come when we will have to extend the facilities to the Mr. PIZZEY: The Director of Native mission schools, or to any schools in which Affairs makes every effort possible to find we feel the children are not receiving the the next-of-kin. type of education that will fit them to take Mr. Wallis-Smith: If there is none? their places as ordinary citizens. I believe that we will have to have all sorts of Mr. PIZZEY: If it is impossible to find opportunity schools, and we will have to any, the money is paid into the welfare have smaller classes with more teachers, and account. If it is a large estate, it is more skilled teachers. Theirs is a particularly handed to the Public Curator for adminis­ difficult job and it requires specialist training. tration; the Director of Native Affairs 1586 Ways and Means [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2 administers small estates. If subsequently a "(b) That, towards making good the relative was discovered, the department Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the would make an ex-gratia payment to the service of the year 1964-1965, a further dependant entitled to such assistance. It is sum not exceeding £82,110.245 be granted sometimes very difficult to discover next-of­ from the Trust and Special Funds. kin of aboriginals who live in some of the "(c) That, towards making good the more remote parts of Queensland. By and Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the large, extreme care is taken to ensure that service of the year 1964-1965, a further justice is done to these people whose sum not exceeding £21,305,000 be granted accounts we are responsible for keeping and from the moneys standing to the credit holding. of the Loan Fund Account. I hope that there will later be an oppor­ "(d) That, towards making good the tunity to debate further the many problems Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the of the Sub-Department of Native Affairs, service of the year 1963-1964, a supple­ which comes at present under the jurisdic­ mentary sum not exceeding £5,721,716 15s. tion of the Department of Education. be granted out of the Consolidated Obviously, more money is needed. I think Revenue Fund of Queensland exclusive the Treasurer mentioned in his Budget of the moneys standing to the credit of the speech that, for certain constitutional reasons, Loan Fund Account. full-blood aboriginals are not included in "(e) That, towards making good the census figures on which tax reimbursements Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the are determined. Some in the Cape York service of the year 1963-1964, a supple­ Peninsula and Gulf areas are, as the hon. mentary sum not exceeding £3,274,951 6s. member for Tablelands knows, difficult to be granted from the Trust and Special find. Some, such as those living up around Funds. Coen, come in only slight touch with civilisation. There is no way in which a "(f) That, towards making good the complete census can be taken. A complete Supply granted to Her Majesty, for census of white people is never made. Every the service of the year 1963-1964, a time a census is taken in Queensland, or supplementary sum not exceeding anywhere in Australia for that matter, a £2,377,928 3s. ld. be granted from the few hundred or thousand are missed. If a moneys standing to the credit of the Loan figure of £30 reimbursement a head is taken Fund Account. for an estimated 7,000 or 8,000 aboriginals, "(g) That, towards making good the the total is approximately £250,000 that is not Supply granted to Her Majesty, on being received in Consolidated Revenue account, for the service of the year because full-blood aboriginals are not 1965-1966, a sum not exceeding included in census returns. That money could £22,000,000 be granted out of the Con­ well be used to further the interests of solidated Revenue Fund of Queensland native people in the Torres Strait Islands. exclusive of the moneys standing to the credit of the Loan Fund Account. At 9.30 p.m., "(h) That, towards making good the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Under the pro­ Supply granted to Her Majesty, on visions of Standing Order No. 307 and account, for the service of the year 1965- Sessional Order agreed to by the House on 1966, a sum not exceeding £25,000,000 14 October, I shall now put the Resolution be granted from the Trust and Special under discussion and all other Resolutions Funds. not already agreed to by the House. "(i) That, towards making good the Resolution 6-Department of Education­ Supply granted to Her Majesty, on agreed to. account, for the service of the year 1965- 1966, a sum not exceeding £5,000,000 be Resolutions 7 to 23, both inclusive, agreed granted from the moneys standing to the to. credit of the Loan Fund Account." WAYS AND MEANS Motion agreed to. OPENING OF COMMITTEE Resolutions reported, received, and agreed to. (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, Greenslopes, in the chair) APPROPRIATION BILL No. 2 Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­ FIRST READING Treasurer): I move- A Bill, founded on the Resolutions "(a) That, towards making good the reported from the Committee of Ways and Supply granted to Her Majesty, for the Means, was introduced and read a first time. service of the year 1964-1965, a further SECOND READING sum not exceeding £62,776,778 be granted out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­ Queensland exclusive of the moneys stand­ Treasurer) (9.35 p.m.): I move- ing to the credit of the Loan Fund "That the Bill be now read a second Account. time." Appropriation Bill No. 2 [17 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1587

I propose to make some very brief remarks to and in the civil engineering field of con­ close one of our long, customary Budget struction. That trend, in the Goveinment's debates and, as the matters that have been view, is likely to continue and whilst raised have been replied to progressively seasonal employment still represents quite a in the course of the debate, there is no matter considerable part of the overall e.::onomy of to which I propose devoting a great deal the State, it is significant that some cf the of time at this stage. However, I believe developments that are taking place in the that opportunity should be taken to again, seasonally employing industries are reducing as it were, feel the pulse of our economy, the relative impact of seasonal unemployment mainly because it is clear that this year is when the sugar harvest is taken off and no ordinary year. This is no merely repeti­ the wheat harvest is taken off, and so on, tive year of a sequence of years of indis­ because of the increasing mechanisation of tinguishable colour, one from the other; those industries. rather, the distinctive features of this year It is the view of the Government that the that are clearly emerging are the variety and trend of over-employment and the strong the scale of the development and the impact pressures on employment in the particular of really great sums of expenditure of private fields mentioned are likely to continue capital on a scale which, if not completely because, taking the refineries as an example, new in the experience of this State, are millions are being spent on a construction certainly of a degree far transcending any programme that, although it is pressing on previous experience. well, is still quite high in its requirements. Already this injection has had a tremen­ The Amoco refinery, which is now starting dous impact on the employment picture of from the ground up, is likely to cast a the State. It is starting to have a consider­ fairly considerable demand for labour in able effect on local housing needs and, in its specialist requirements. The hon. member turn, of course, is reflecting on the disposi­ for Port Curtis, and others who have recently tion of our population in such matters as seen what is happening with Comalco at schools, transport needs, education rec;uire­ Gladstone, will know the immense amount ments and things of that nature. of work done in preparing the site. Comalco I feel that I must refer to the effect have their construction executive out here first of all, of the great increase in the pro: now and they will be coming in with their ductive capacity of the sugar industry, the constructional demands to proceed with the tremendous installation of the alumina indus­ actual physical construction of the alumina try at Gladstone, the successive impact of plant. In the case of the motor industry, quick results flowing from the developmen. the site is being rapidly cleared and they, of the brigalow lands of Central Queenslaud, too, are faced with many months of the already significant and what now pro­ intensive construction. mises to become the more significant export In the case of the brigalow-lands scheme, of coal from Central Queensland, the con­ in the first year it was a little slow in getting struction of the two big oil refinery pro­ organised and moving. However, I think jects here and the not unimportant additions we can sum it up fairly by saying that to the motor assembly industry in this State. the brigalow scheme is now in full spate So massive are they in their effect upon our and is likely to continue at the present level economy that I think it is appropriate that of activity for another year or two. If it is some observation should be made and some a fair assessment to say that the expansion stock should be taken of them at this ,:age of the sugar industry may have passed its of an Appropriation Bill. In taking that peak of requirement in the clearing of stock and feeling the patient's pulse, as it new land and the making of additions to were, again I repeat what I have said ea!lier the mills, it has by no means concluded, in this session, namely, that the loan-raising and there is still quite a bit of work to programme for this year is completely be done before the expansion in the pro­ assured. We have some public loans that, duction of the sugar industry reaches its because of the convenience of the conver­ full target level. sion operation attached to them, will not It is now likely that the coal industry in take place until after the Christmas period, Central Queensland, which has been one of and there appears to be not the slightest the significant developments over the last doubt that we will break for Christmas and two or three years, will get a further spurt that all the remaining public loans will be in its expansion and, in addition, as has raised from assured sources. There is no been indicated through the Press and will doubt that this will again be a full raising shortly, I hope, be the subject of formal year for all requirements, both Government submissions to the House when hon. members and semi-Government. will be fully informed on all the details, It is unnecessary for me to trace in it is likely quite a considerable railway detail the employment trend. It is clear construction job will be put in hand at a to everyone that for some months thl! State fairly early date. That will be quite has enjoyed overall a condition of very nicely timed because it will come just at full employment and some evident over­ the last stage of the rehabilitation of the pressures, particularly in the field o( heavy Mt. Isa line. There had been some feeling industry, in the various fields of construc­ of concern in Government circles and else­ tion, both domestic and commercial building, where about the let-down when this great 1588 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

project finished. It now appears that the Housing is another field that deserves par­ new job will come along, providing much ticular recognition. There we realised too the same. type of requirement in earth-moving, that, by the time the Budget was prepared, track-~aymg, sleeper-cutting and bridge con­ we faced a situation where for the first time structiOn work. It will come on in nice the State was confronted with really abundant sequence straight beh·ind the last stage of evidence of large-scale building activity of the Mt. Isa project. both commercial and industrial buildings. In taking the economic pulse of Queens­ One has only to move around the streets of the land's economy, I think it is fair to say capital city to see the number of great build­ that those pressures to which I have referred ings in course of erection to realise that here are reflected in some evidence of a labour there is a new demand in the field of building shortage. It will interest hon. members to tradesmen, and new demands for the materials ~now that the evidence of a labour shortage that go to construct commercial buildings. ~s not confined to the narrow field of heavy Whilst they are not always interchangeable mdus~ry and. to f?rms of building con­ with the type of labour that builds cottages structiOn. It IS showmg out even in the fields and the type of material that goes into cot­ of public administration. At the end of tage construction, there is inevitably some October my Treasury officers were able to interchange between the two. No community say to me that it was already clear that in practice can find itself maintaining a maxi­ som~ of our administrative departments were mum effort in dwelling construction simul­ startmg to feel and reflect the condition of taneously with a maximum effort in com­ very full employment and high competition mercial and industrial building. If one blows for labour staffs. Some are starting to find up excessively, the tendency is towards some that they are losing staffs and are not able decline in the other because, again, in to replace them with the fluency that was materials and building manpower we have previously the case. It could well be that we only a certain optimum pace which we can­ will find this on _our revenue side, quite not go on forcing, and that is in spite of apart from the capital works side and that various types of guaranteed overtime, week­ the. yre:Jicted pattern of our 'budgetary end work, and so on. There is only a certain antJcipatiOns may in some cases prove incap­ geared pace at which it can be efficient. able of being reached simply because when We knew that the great surge was on in we start to operate in what is almost a commercial and industrial building and, sens­ full employment market we just cannot com­ ing that, and watching always the overall new mand people for our requirements with the building rate, we felt that it might be difficult s~me . flu~ncy as when the employment to command a domestic building programme SituatiOn Is not so good. I mention that as high on the governmental side as had been merely as a matter of record. possible in the previous years. I am glad to Ple~se do not think the Government is report-and I think most hon. members who decrymg the position. We are delighted that watch this position closely will agree-that the employment pressure is as good as it is. over the last five years there has been a ~n ta~ing the pulse of the economy I felt that steady annual progression in the number of m fmrness I should acquaint the House with new dwellings commenced and completed. It the fact that there is also some evidence that has been a steadily improving picture. some of our revenue departments may find I repeat that all the evidence, confirmed by that they will not be able to command the the census that we study as to the density of staffs they have budgeted for. Of course the inhabitants of the community-that is, it all. brings us back to the inescapable fact the inhabitants of the community divided by t~a~ m every community there is a physical the number of available dwellings in the hmit to the capacity to perform. community-indicates that there has been a Just as in the field of money availability small but steady improvement there. I think we cannot .squeeze a quart out of a pint pot, we got down to one dwelling to every 3 · 82 so w~en rt comes to productive building persons. That was a small improvement on capacity we cannot do more than produce the previous census and there is every indica­ close to 100 per cent. of our production tion that our present rate of building-which potential. .once we reach that stage we can­ is unsurpassed in the last 10 years-will result not force It past that stage. We just cannot in a still further reduction in that average get 105 per cent. production potential out density. On top of that, we have endeavoured ~f 31 community when 100 per cent. is the to make our used dwellings more fluid and limit of its manpower and other resources. members will be interested to know that we The Government, conscious of these things have now reached the stage where £750,000 is finding it necessary already to exert a very has gone into second-hand home societies. close, week-by-week scrutiny over these Whilst that is still trifling in relation to the trends. As we run into barriers or blocks in demand that is so evident, it means that cc::rtain fields, so we have to be prepared to £750,000 has already in fact gone into homes divert moneys quickly into directions where which otherwise would have been locked up w~ can still use them in production so that because money was not available for their thi.s year t~ere will be greater fluency of purchase. ad]u~tment m the pattern of managing the From all this came the clear need for public economY: of the State than in any year technical labour. It is very short in the fields m all our previous history. I have mentioned for employers and the Appropriation Bill No. 2 (17 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1589

Government and it is a big step to bring in and whatever return it could get from the technical labour to endeavour to repair these development of some of our mineral and drains on our labour resources. In the estab­ primary resources. A comparison with other lishment and development of industry in States of the Commonwealth in regard to some new areas the Government has been development indicates that the pattern is compelled to face challenges of an order dif­ uniform throughout Australia; it is not only ferent from our previous experience. So it is found in Queensland, where the Government that although we are convinced that all the is projecting an alumina refinery within a evidence shows that our rate of building is few years, the increased export of coal from better than ever before, we are still gradually Central Queensland, and the possibility of improving the number of houses in relation increased meat production. In New South to the increased population so that the density Wales there is considerable development by index is steadily dropping. This has left us Broken Hill Proprietary Co. Ltd. and other with some situations where more has been industrial undertakings, which no doubt will called for, and only within the last week I mean a considerable return to the New found it necessary to make some additional South Wales Government by way of funds available to the Queensland Housing increased royalties and grants from many Commission in an endeavour to meet some of companies which are operating there, which these local difficulties that are showing out. we do not see any visible signs of in In spite of that, my prediction is that this Queensland at present. Coal emanating from New South Wales mines and exported to year will see a record number of new homes compared with any other period in the Japan last year amounted to somewhere in last 10 years. We will see the density the vicinity of 3,800,000 tons, whereas our index still further improve. We will still export trade last year amounted to a mere have some localitie-s where there are acute 800 000 tons From a study of the revenues needs which are particularly reflective where whi~h have been received by the New South there is a surge in local industry. That Wales Government during the past year­ is as nearly as I can give an objective I have not the actual figures, but on a assessment of how we measure what is comparative basis-they are far in advance likely to happen in regard to housing. of what Queensland can ever receive from the export of much of its mineral wealth. For those reasons I indicate to the House The development in southern States, that my prediction is that it will be necessary particularly South Australia, New South for the Government, and for me as Treasurer, to play this year's programme Wales and Western Australia, has been less from the printed score and more from conne~ted with the development of mineral ear. We know that employment and resources and heavy industry. This has been resources pressures may delay, and in some particularly evident in recent years in Western cases even prevent, some of the designed Australia. Queensland has only one or two programme from complete performance; but similar examples. In Western Australia where it shows out it will be neces·sary for deposits of bauxite, discovered more recently us to depart from the rigidities of the than those at Weipa, have been developed Budget prediction so that we can take up more expeditiously than have those in the savings that we cannot spend because Queensland. of some of these employment blocks and The Queensland Labour G<;wernment, I use them elsewhere to the advantage of think in 1954, by agreement with the Com­ the State. Because of the unusual character monwealth Government, induced the Bureau and background of this, there have already of Mineral Resources to investigate the been one or two instances in which the north-west of Queensland. It is remarkable G~v~rnn:ent has had to move to provide that time after time the present Government flmdity m the Budget. I think it deserves tries to claim credit for the discovery of mention to the House as such and I mineral deposits. In actual fact it was a mention it in presenting the Bill. ' a Labour Government that induced the Mr. LLOYD (Kedron) (9.53 p.m.): I Commonwealth Government to send officers appreciate the fact that the Treasurer has of the Bureau of Mineral Resources to the not taken a great deal of the time of the north-west of Queensland, where deposits of House in introducing his Appropriation Bill iron ore were discovered in Constance Range. on this occasion. It is necessary for us Since that time the deposits have remained to spend as much time as we can on some unexploited. I see no evidence yet of the matters of criticism in relation to some Queensland Government embarking on a departments and some of the past history policy, similar to that of the Government of of the Government, particularly in regard Western Australia, of advertising throughout to t~is tremendous spate of development the world for a contract system for the descnbed by the Treasurer in his introduc­ development of these reserves. tion. There is also another difference between He said that this is no ordinary year, and the attitudes adopted till now by the Govern­ I have no doubt that it could be an extra­ ments of Western Australia and Queensland. ordinary year, one in which I should have If what the Queensland Government said thought that the Government would have is to be believed, the coal deposits of Central protected as far as it could its own revenues Queensland will provide annually 5,000,000 52 1590 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

tons of coal for e~port from which we, the necessary for the State Government-and people, may receive any amount up to indirectly the taxpayers of Queensland-to £75,000 in royalties. The Government seems repay to the Commonwealth Government to be content to take from companies only much of the money that it has advanced to the smallest of rental payments, and the enable the Government to carry out the work return for the people from this source has that is required. The money is advanced as been meagre. short-term loans and is repayable at varying Let us compare this with what is happening rates of interest, and this must have an in Western Australia, in the Hamersley Range impact on the budgetary position of the project. I believe that this was approved State. recently by the Commonwealth Government, I do not blame the State Government for and from it millions of tons of iron ore entering into such an agreement for develop­ will be exported over a period of time. The mental purposes, but I believe agreements deposits in the Hamersley Range were the of this type show a lack of conscience on subject of an agreement between the Govern­ the part of the Commonwealth Government. ment of Western Australia and Hamersley It is an insidious way of encouraging develop­ Iron Pty. Ltd., in which Conzinc Rio Tinto ment, and the Commonwealth Government, of Australia Ltd. and Kaiser Steel Corpora­ which has both the responsibility and tion hold 60 per cent. and 40 per cent. advantages of being the revenue-raising interests respectively. Under that agreement authority for the whole of Australia, should royalties payable are a minimum of 6s. a not, because of a plan for national develop­ ton on top-grade ore exported, which amount ment, be in a position to lend their own reduces for ores of lower grade. With the money back to State Governments and tell rents payable by the company, from the them that they must repay it in 15 or 20 full production and export of 5,000,000 tons years, as the case may be. This does not of iron ore deposits by the company apply only to Queensland. Much of the £1,500,000 a year will be returned to the developmental work in other States is being Government of Western Australia. It seems done on a similar basis. Even in relation that other State Governments have a much to rail standardisation projects, where they greater sense of responsibility than has the are almost wholly responsible for administer­ Queensland Government in many of these ing the policies of the Commonwealth matters of development. Governments, State Governments are forced It is not my intention to knock any of into a position of having to repay the Com­ these schemes, as I have been accused of monwealth Government for works of a doing: I do feel it necessary, however, to developmental nature that will prove of point out some of these matters to indicate greater benefit to the Commonwealth than to that we are not satisfied with the method the State when they are finally completed. of reaching agreement with overseas The question is very important to State companies. Many agreements are no longer Governments, which in a few years will :ecognisable as the ones originally entered notice a very severe impact on their revenue mto. Under one that is now receiving much as the work progresses. No doubt State publicity, a company had undertaken to finances will have greater liquidity as a result build a railway line. Whether the proposed of increased population, and this may over­ alteration will be better for Queensland is come the problem to some extent. not as important as the fact that an agree­ However, although additional railway ment formerly entered into is now to be revenue will come to the Government of amended to such an extent is to make it Queensland, the Mount Isa railway pro­ quite unrecognisable. No doubt some ject already is making a heavy impact argument will be presented by the Govern­ on the State's finances. For example, ment on this matter. Of course, I would this year the Treasurer has budgeted for an prefer to see a common carrier, such as a expenditure of £1,900,000 in interest and railway line, owned by the State Government. redemption payments on the Mount Isa­ In most other countries development takes Townsville-Collinsville railway line, and this place under a system of contract. The whole gives an indication of the considerable project, including the materials, the technolo­ impact that will be made on the finances of gists, and so on, is brought in as a package the State for another 20 years. When the deal under contract with the Government, development of the brigalow blocks is com­ and after a period, when it is amortised, it pleted, interest will be accruing on the £7,000,000, or whatever the amount is, repay­ is handed back to the Government or to able to the Commonwealth Government. whoever is delegated by the Government to receive delivery of the project. I believe it That could be a revenue-producing project, as is the Mount Isa railway project, and it is time that Australian Governments con­ may possibly amortise itself. However, it is sidered using this method, not only for the really a national project, designed to increase development of coal deposits but also for the gross national product of Australia, and other developments such as those that the Treasurer mentioned. it will be of greater advantage to Australia as a whole than it will be to Queensland. It Much of the work now being undertaken can give some advantage to Queensland only is costing the people of Queensland a great by means of increasing State revenue from deal of money. In many instances it is all forms of State taxation. No benefit will Appropriation Bill No. 2 [17 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1591

be received other than in increased employ­ Commonwealth insisting on something else. ment and productivity. As I said, greater There must be some national plan in this advantages flow to the Commonwealth regard. Government, and I believe that that Govern­ This is a position upon which I have ment should accept a greater degree of discoursed before but I think it is sufficiently responsibility for financing the projects that important to be raised at this time. We are implemented here. should like to see development directed on the right lines with the maximum possible Let us consider the provision of bulk­ return going to the people of this State from handling facilities at Queensland sugar ports. the wealth of primary and mineral resources In New South Wales, the provision of coal­ that we possess. We should not be giving handling facilities has been financed, I believe, them away as cheaply as possible. Other to the extent of about £2.500,000, primarily States appear to be able to entice companies from Commonwealth revenue. Yet we have to go there and at the same time insist had to spend, I believe, in the vicinity of on a much higher return. £4,000,000 to £5,000,000 on these installa­ If it is possible for other Australian tions over the years by means of our own Governments to receive £1,500,000 from Loan Fund, by the system of finance through royalties and rents, what is wrong with the the Sugar Board, and by the raising of Queensland Government receiving a similar debentures through harbour boards. amount from Queensland coal? The cost of producing coal at the present time is Mr. Hiley: More than double that. sufficiently low, and the employment of labour sufficiently low, to indicate that the company Mr. LLOYD: That could be so; I have will receive tremendous profits from exporting not taken out accurate figures. this coal to Japan. If that is the case, we This is a matter of vital national should be in a position to receive some of importance to the country, yet we have to those profits ourselves instead of receiving no more than £75,000, that is, if returns are accept the responsibility, from our own loan still based on the original terms of 6d. a funds, instead of the Commonwealth Govern­ ton for the first 1,000,000 tons and 3d. ment accepting the same responsibility as a ton in excess of 1,000,000 tons in one it is apparently willing to accept in regard year. This undertaking will represent to coal-handling facilities in many other coal wonderful returns to the company, and that, ports of Australia. of course, may be taken into consideration by the Government. I certainly hope it is. An unfortunate feature about development In ail these things the Government should here is that because of Commonwealth do its best to protect the resources of this policies, we are concentrating on production State. that will be of greatest advantage in relation to exports. That is the case with coal. The Mention was made of the construction maximum amount of exporting wiii be under­ industry. This is very important to the State, taken of coal from Central Queensland. No and has been for many years. In fact, it has doubt at Weipa there has been concentration been one of the greatest sources of employ­ up to the present time on the export of raw ment in Queensland, where it has been more material to any other country that wishes to sensitive to any decline, acceleration or refine the particular product, and, if we expansion in the building industry than in any ever reach the stage at which the iron ore other State. Possibly that has been because deposits at Constance Range are worked, we are so lowly considered as an industrialised there again there wiii be over-concentration State. The building industry was able to on the value of exports. The whole matter absorb a great number of people who would comes back to the saturation we have reached otherwise have been unemployed when the with capital investment from overseas in State's economy was in a bad position. domestic industry in Australia, which has I admit that the construction rate of not been concentrating in the past on export houses has expanded during the past 12 but on satisfying the local, domestic demand. months. That has happened throughout the That in itself has caused an impact on the whole of Australia. However, a warning value of our G.N.P.-great national products sign to the industry has been the rise in -and export values and it has become in the cost of construction in the past necessary for the Commonwealth to encour­ six to nine months. There has been an age, as far as it possibly can, an increase increase of almost 20 per cent. If it in the value of export trade from time to increases or even remains at that figure the time to enable it to meet its balance of normal cottage will be beyond the means payments. of the family man, particularly if he is on I believe that we can over-concentrate on a low wage. this matter and that there is a great necessity The Treasurer speaks rather glibly about for some national plan in regard to overseas diverting finance into the State's housing investment being undertaken so that the programme but he does not mention that States can all enter into one type of agree­ most of it is high interest bearing money. ment instead of one State entering into one In most cases the money diverted from loan type, another State into another, and the funds and Commonwealth-State Housing 1592 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

Agreement funds has been money bearing these things before Christmas. We do not interest charges of up to 5 per cent. There get any participation from schools, although is a tendency on the part of the State school bands and other school organisations Government to divert high interest bearing should take an active part in any Australia money rather than accept cheap money and Day programme. divert it to housing to give young people a greater opportunity to acquire their own My reason for suggesting a transfer of the homes. If construction costs continue to celebrations to 22 August is that that is the rise and if interest charges have a tendency date on which Captain Cook took possession to further increase it will be obvious to many of Australia at Possession Island. The present people-it should be to the Treasurer; it day, of course, is the day upon which certainly is to me and hon. members on Governor Philip made his first landing. I do this side-that housing authorities in Queens­ not think that date is quite as significant as land, in fact throughout Australia, will be the one on which Captain Cook took formal confronted with the position where they possession of Australia. There has been some are building houses that people will not be discussion about whether or not this happened able to afford to buy because of the high on 22 or 23 August and I wish to quote a amortisation costs. short statement which sets this matter at rest because the Queensland Historical Society has I understand one or two other hon. mem­ raised it on several occasions. It is as bers on this side wish to speak, so I will give follows- them an opportunity to do so. "Those who believe that it was 23rd August base their belief on the fact that Mr. HERBERT (Sherwood) (10.13 p.m.): although Captain Cook entered in his I take the opportunity to congratulate the journals that he took possession between Government for the increased support given the hours of 4 p.m. and 6 p.m. on 22nd to the Australia Day procession next year. August, he made no allowance for the fact As I have the honour of being the President that, on sailing westward across the Pacific of the .Federal Australia Day Council, I and crossing the International Date Line, should hke to make a few comments about he had gained a day; that he made no the observance of Australia Day. Although adjustment for his gain until he reached I am president of the organisation these are Batavia; and that therefore what he entered personal views and not necessarily the views as 22nd August was in fact, according to of the Federal Australia Day Council. That their reckoning, 23rd August. There is no council is composed of representatives of the question as to the accuracy of the entry of Australia Day Council in each State. 22nd August, or as to the fact that Captain Generally office-bearers hold office for two Cook did gain a day and did not make years. allowance for it until he reached Batavia. The idea I wish to promote is the trans­ But there is another fact to be taken into ference of the observance of Australia Day consideration which ought to alter the from 26 January to 22 August. There are beliefs of the Queensland Historical Society. a number of reasons for that. I have been That is that Cook, in his journals, ran his the Government representative on the days from mid-day, so that he ruled his Queensland council ever since we came into journal at mid-day on the day that was office in 1957. You, Mr. Speaker, and 21st August ashore and dated and began several other hon. members on this side the day, which he called 22nd August; so have shared that honour with me. That that the time shown in his log as between council is very competently run. Mr. Jim 4 p.m. and 6 p.m. on 22nd August was, Bur~e, the secretary, is responsible for pro­ ashore, between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m. on 21st ducmg the best Australia Day programme August. If we add the day gained when he that is produced anywhere in Australia. He crossed the International Date Line, 4 p.m. produces it in very difficult circumstances. on 21st August, shore reckoning, becomes Very many people regard 26 January as part 4 p.m. on 22nd August, shore reckoning, of the last long week-end of the summer which was the date on which Cook took vacation, and many go to the beach. In possession of Australia at Possession days gone by when transport was not so Island." readily available, more people took part in That statement can be found in the Senate Australia Day celebrations than do now. debates for 17 November, 1959. But you cannot expect people in this day and age to stay at home over a long week­ If we select 22 August we have a day which end because the observance of a national day is well in the school year and we can have demands that they stay at home and celebrate the participation of schools and other youth it in their city on a hot summer's day. organisations. Of course, that brings in the What makes it even more difficult for the question of when the Warana procession organisers on 26 January is that the schools should be held. There should be some way do not open until the next day so you of interweaving our celebration of Australia have no participation by the youth in the Day and the Warana festivities. community in the celebrations on that date. We managed to get groups of marching girls The experience Mr. Burke has gained in to take part. That is only because they have running Australia Day over the years in the a very active organisation which tees up present difficult circumstances could be Appropriation Bill No. 2 [17 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1593 uti~ised for the mutual benefit of both organi­ job considering the disadvantages that con­ satiOns. At the moment there is no connec­ front him. He is overworked. His office, tion v.:hatsoever betwee~ the Australia Day as it were, cannot do justice to the tasks Council and the Warana committee. That is presented to it because of the attitude of a _mistake_ because most of the experience in this Government in relation to the funds this field IS already available to the Australia provided and the assistance given. Day Council and could be of extreme benefit to the Warana committee although naturally I made a statement to the Press not long the Warana festivities cover a much wider ago to the effect that it is unfair that appli­ field than the present Australia Day function cants for legal aid should first of all have as it is carried out in Queensland. to get the approval of the Crown Prosecutor or a representative of the Crown Law Queensland is the only State that really Office, who in effect prosecutes them to celebrates Australia Day. The other States their conviction; that is, on appeal. In any are not very interested and, as a matter of case, to get legal assistance for their criminal fact, South Australia has a holiday for its trial they have to apply to the magistrate own Foundation Day, which is held between who commits them for trial. That in itself Christmas and New Year. South Australia is unsatisfactory. is not at all interested in celebrating Australia pay. In most States a special race meeting As so very often happens, or invariably IS held and called the Australia Day meeting happens, the Crown Law authorities for and possibly a dinner is held at night. I repeat some reason or other-perhaps because of that Queensland is the only State which the red-tape machinery that prevails there engages in full-scale activities and they would -sends the approval, if it is approved, to not be possible but for the generous support the Public Defender with little or no time given by the Government. The Government's to spare for the proper preparation of the grant makes all the difference between success defence brief. It happened in this present and fai~ure because, unfortunately, we do not criminal sittings that three persons con­ get fittmg support from the business com­ jointly charged with a serious criminal munity for our national day. One of the offence were awarded poor-prisoners' aid reasons for the lack of business support is that and the decision was made so tardily that very many of the organisations in Brisbane the Public Defender had to apply to the have their headquarters in Melbourne and Chief Justice to have the trial delayed for Sydney. As their headquarters do not cele­ two days so that he could properly brief brate Australia Day, they cannot see any counsel and prepare a defence. No doubt reason for their branch offices in Queensland the Chief Justice found other work to do, to contribute to the celebration of the national but the Chief Justice of this State had to day here. If the day were altered to 22 Aug­ be delayed for two days because this Govern­ ust, when the weather is better a date far ment is too mean to provide adequate finance more suitable to most organisati~ns than one for the proper briefing for a public defence. during the Christmas recess when most of There has also been a claim made that them are prevented from taking an active part some form of legal assistance in civil actions in anything, I think we could guarantee a would be given to those in necessitous cir­ much greater public interest in Australia Day and so give us a national day of which we cumstances. Again no such proposal is could be truly proud instead of a day that manifest in the Budget. Why Government most people resent having to give up. back-benchers continue to make these claims and hold out these promises to unfortunate Mr. BENNETT (South Brisbane) (10.21 members of the public I fail to understand. p.m.): There are two matters I want to With the puny amount of money presently being made available for public-defence refer to. The first is the announcement purpose, the Public Defender, or his office, made from time to time by one or two should have the only say in who is to back-benchers in the Government ranks to receive a public defence, in conformity with the effect that this Government proposes the Government's policy, rather than the to extend legal aid in this State. A perusal matter's having to await the indulgence of of the Estimates clearly indicates that such officers of the Crown Law Office, who a claim is fictitious, that at the moment conduct the prosecution also. the Government has no such intention. I fail to understand why the Minister allows That i·s one reference that I wanted to these claims to be made publicly with some make before proceeding to deal with what authority from time to time without I still consider to be an urgent matter for denying them. Government consideration in this State. About this time last year I mentioned that Although, I suppose, any form of assis­ morale in the Police Force had never been tance is better than none the form of lower. I fully believe that, in the interven­ assistance that is provided at the moment ing 12 months, morale has further is not very advantageous in the method of deteriorated. I was rather interested to read its application. I say that with absolute an article in "The Sunday Mail" last Sunday respect to the Public Defender Mr. M. almost re-echoing many of the sentiments Nolan, whose ability is outstanding in the expressed by me in this House just 12 criminal field. He does a particularly fine months ago. 1594 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

Mr. Dewar: I understand you gave it to got rid of it as soon as he could, because them. obviously he was not interested in it. So it was tacked onto the new Minister, the Mr. BENNETT: It is becoming manifestly present incumbent of the office who was obvious that the Minister, although he makes prepared to take any department in order these light-hearted interjections, prefers to to get ministerial preference. He has many be seen at the Gold Coast wearing a grass departments within his jurisdiction, and it skirt which, in my experience in the islands, is obvious that he considers the Police is normally worn by a female. He is the Department the least important of them. first male I have ever seen wearing one. He seems to ·spend his time in such activities I say quite frankly that I do not believe instead of devoting his attention strictly to many of the answers he has given in the his portfolio, which is a serious one. House from time to time relative to the administration of the Police Force. For Mr. Dewar: You don't know where Heron instance, if he believed the answer that he Island is. gave me in reply to the question I asked about the Commissioner's car, he would be Mr. BENNEIT: No. I went much further the only one associated with the Police Force than Heron Island. I was up where there who believed it to be truthful. I say, there­ was active warfare, not bikini-displaying and fore, that it is rather unfortunate that such grass-skirt-wearing. an important department should be regarded Mr. Dewar: You were a provost, weren't as merely an unimportant addendum to some you-a half-baked policeman? other ministerial occupation. I believe that the administration of the Police Force is Mr. BENNEIT: The Minister chooses to one of the most important functions in the make these cheap and insulting remarks. State, that it should be handed to a senior I do not know where he was during the war Minister, and that it should be one of his and I do not propose to comment on his primary obligations. wartime activities. I can assure him, however, that, if he had been where I was during In spite of my belief that, generally speak­ the war, he would have put on his grass ing, the top man in any organisation should, skirt and run for the lick of his life. That if possible, be drawn from the ranks of that would be his form. organisation, I am fully of the opinion that the situation presently prevailing in the Police Mr. Dewar: The provosts were always Force can be cured only by the appointment chasing people. of a Commissioner from outside the Police Force, who has no previous associations Mr. .BENNEIT: Just for the record, I was with the evils that have gone on, the fac­ not a provost; I happened to be in the tions that have been formed, and the black­ Royal Australian Air Force doing a highly mail that takes place between policemen-­ technical job associated with the detection inspectors and others. There is only one way of enemy aircraft, not the detection of of curing it at this late stage, and that is by offences of our own soldiers or anything to getting a Commissioner completely outside do with their activities. all the evil influences that have prevailed in Of course, the Minister is prepared to the Queensland Police Force in r~cent years. make these allegations and charges. He has been denying allegations about his Police I will take one recent example. What is Force administration for quite some time the reason for the discontent? That there now. Let me assure the House that it is discontent is obvious. The report of the will not be surprising if the day comes Commissioner, dated 19 October, 1964, when he will deny and deny and end up indicates clearly that there is discontent, in the same situation as that in which because in the year ended 30 June, 1964, Profumo found himself. there were no fewer than 57 resignations, which is something to be regretted seriously I am speaking very seriously. The Gov­ by the authorities who administer the police ernment apparently thinks the Police Depart­ force. It will be interesting to hear the ment portfolio is of little importance. It Minister's answers to my questions tomorrow. has always been tacked on to some other There have been 22 resignations recently, portfolio. For instance, when the Gov­ and I believe that there are another 26 ernment first accepted its mandate from the ready to come in before Christmas. That is people in 1957 the Police Department was the situation existing at present in the Police administrated by Mr. Morris, the then Force, and the Government must do some­ Deputy Premier, who had many other duties thing about it; it is a serious situation. to attend to. Subsequently the portfolio was bounced around till it lodged in the erudite I point out that there is a good deal of hands of the Minister for Education, who politics played within the administration of did not seem to be very interested in the the Police Force. The Premier and others administration of the Police Force. As have chosen to ignore that claim from time a former school teacher and a man primarily to time, but the Government's sticking its concerned with education, he devoted most head in the sand will eventually be its ruina­ of his time and attention to the education tion if it does not take action on the matter. aspect of his portfolio and treated the Police I mentioned a case at Maryborough; l could Department more or less as a sideline. He mention a case of a sergeant of police at the Appropriation Bill No. 2 (17 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1595

Woolloongabba police station. I do not care that he might see the light and get back to what his politics are or which party he repre­ normal routine discussion in this House. sents from time to time, but I certainly He has imputed improper motives to the resent his politics interfering with the proper Government and I ask him to withdraw carrying out of his duties. The Commi~­ his remark. sioner and others responsible for the adminis­ tration of the Police Force should know, Mr. BENNETI: Very well, I withdraw even if they do not, that that is one of the it. reasons why they cannot control the men. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Will the hon. I do not propose to go into the merits of member please face the Chair? I did not this case because a court has already deter­ hear his mumble. I would like to hear what mined the matter, but recently a charge laid he said. by a detective sergeant was dismissed and he was ordered to pay about £181 in costs. Mr. BENNEIT: I do not think I I do not propose to comment on the decision ordinarily mumble. of the court. That must be accepted at this Mr. SPEAKER: Order! If the hon. stage. I do not intend to comment on the member addresses the Chair like that, he conduct of the sergeant or the merits of the will not be allowed to continue his speech. case, but I do say that the Police Force I ask him to withdraw the statement he feels that this Government throws it to the made, and I want a clear withdrawal. wolves in certain conditions and in certain circumstances. Mr. BENNEIT: I did say to you, Mr. This was a prosecution which attracted Speaker, that I withdrew on your direction. great public interest. Big policies were Mr. Windsor: You mumbled. involved. The president of the Bar Associa­ tion, a Q.C., was briefed to appear with a Mr. BENNETT: It is a pity Mr. Speaker junior for the solicitor concerned, and what does not deal with the hon. member. I just did the Government do? The Government said it is one rub for one and another for allowed the detective-sergeant to be repre­ another. sented in that court for some eight days by an ordinary, lay policeman prosecutor. To deal with the report of the Commis­ sioner of Police-! fully understand and The Treasurer in his reply-or the appro­ accept the situation that the State, in the priate Minister when replying-may say, administration of its facilities, must adhere "Well that is the normal function of that to tradition and must preserve the history particular prosecutor. That is the accepted of our Force and the records of this State. method of prosecuting a charge of that But, we have been told regularly-and this nature." But, has the Government forgotten report bears it out-that the Commissioner that when I was involved in a charge it believes he is short-staffed in his Police went to great pains to secure a conviction. Force. I have no doubt that that is true. It did not allow a police prosecutor to He also says in the report that the Govern­ prosecute me. It briefed one of the leading ment refuses to give him additional strength Queen's Counsel in this State, with a junior and that the reason given is that the Govern­ and, for his five minutes in court it paid ment lacks the necessary funds to make him 75 guineas and his junior 60 guineas. such provision. We are faced with the That is what this Government did in its situation that the Police Force is under­ personal, petty, vindictive spleen against a staffed and those who are conscientious are member of this House. But, when the overworked. welfare of a detective-sergeant was at stake -one who, so far as I know, had no con­ In reply to a question dealing with traffic victions and whose record was right; who congestion at North Quay on one occasion the had done nothing to tarnish his career in Minister told me that the general allocation the Police Force-they did not go to his of traffic officers was receiving the continual assistance. Instead, when strong requests and constant attention of the Government. I were made for assistance, I believe the believe the truthful answer would be, and Government turned a cold shoulder and should have been, that there were just no ignored his requests and allowed him to be policemen available in the inner city that saddled with £181 costs because the person morning to deal with the traffic chaos and being prosecuted here was an ordinary congestion that occurred because all those solicitor; it was not one of the Government's available had been sent out to the outskirts political foes. of the city to control traffic. That is why there is discontent in the There is a shortage of policemen. Some Police Force. They say there is one law of the beat policemen are being trained for one and another law for another. If in traffic duties but some of them are not your mate is in the A.L.P., they will put suitable for that type of work. In spite of the the steamroller over you. If they think emergency that presently exists-there is a you may be friendly disposed towards the record amount of unsolved crime in Queens­ Labour Party, they will go to any pains-- land at the moment; there is a record number of road fatalities-we still appear to Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have allowed be placing more insistence on the ceremonial the hon. member great latitude in the hope aspect of the Police Force than on the 1596 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2 carrying out of its essential functions and clearly indicates that the change was blud­ obligations. It was only recently, during geoned on the Police Force by governmental this crisis of numerical understaffing, that policy conceived almost instantaneously for men were taken away from other duties to one reason or another. I venture to suggest mount horses for mounted-police displays, that the real reason was purely economics. and at the same time members of the Police In effect, the Government was not prepared Pipe Band were taken away from normal to pay for the necessary wages and salaries of police duties. In all it amounted to some the Police Force to save its police stations. 40 policemen being taken away from this In order to avoid its financial obligations to city, which already had insufficient police, provide adequate staff the Government simply leaving Brisbane unprotected against crime. cut out the police stations. It took the line During their abscence the safe-cracksmen got of least resistance, which is clearly poor busy. They keep a close eye on what the administration of a department which is prob­ Minister in charge of Police does with his ably the most important in the State. policemen. They seem to know more about As a matter of fact, in his report the Police the police than the Minister himself. Commissioner even prepared a map of the The report points out that during the various police districts showing the police year under discussion there were 22,000 more stations. I see the now-defunct Kangaroo people in Queensland than in the previous Point Police Station prominently featured in year. It points out that many requests­ the metropolitan area. Obviously, when he no doubt that term is used euphemistically­ prepared this map he did not for one moment have been received for additional strength anticipate that so many police stations would to cope adequately with the added duties and be eliminated. It is abundantly obvious that responsibilities. That is a fairly frank state­ the change was made without any concept or ment in a Commissioner's report when he thought for its being good Police Force says that many requests were made for administration. It was done purely to save a additional strength to cope adequately with few paltry pounds in the Government's the added duties and responsibilities. How­ coffers. ever, the financial allocation to the depart­ The Commissioner of Police said that many ment did not permit any increase in the requests had been made for additional strength of the Police Force proper, the strength but, in fact, they were refused and Commissioner pointed out. It did not permit the actual strength at the end of the year was any increase at all. The only increase allowed 31 below the number approved, due prin­ was six members for full-time duty with the cipally to resignations and retirements. Of Department of Main Roads. Their function. course, we can do nothing about retirements of course, was not the detection of crime: l·ec:mse they are mandatory and obligatory the curtailment of traffic offences or the under the Act. However, there is something insistence on better road manners. Their wrong when the Police Force cannot keep its function was purely a mercenary one-to strength up and is in fact 31 below strength. gather more tax for the Government. When There is something rotten in the State of there is more money available for the Denmark when the Police Force cannot Government by taxing the public, it is attract suitable recruits to take the place of prepared to put on six extra police officers, retiring officers when the Force is 31 below but, when it is a matter of protecting the strength, which the Commissioner says is far public from the wave of crime which has below the number required. prevailed during the term of this Govern­ ment, it is not prepared to put on any extra The Commissioner further says that some policemen. Had that poor unfortunate difficulty is being experienced in securing constable in North Queensland who was shot suitable candidates of the required standard dead had the assistance of a fellow constable for recruitment. on his visit to that home, he might be Mr. Wharton: You seem to be suddenly alive today. But the strength of the Police on the side of the Commissioner. Force is such that police officers have to go on such dangerous errands alone. Mr. BENNETT: I am on the side of justice and fair play, and I am looking after Mr. Byrne: They are closing all the the protection of the public. police stations as well. Mr. Campbell: Do you know the meaning Mr. BENNETT: Yes. That reminds me of the term? that the Minister in charge of Police endeavoured unsuccessfully to convince us Mr. BENNETT: In the short time at my that that rearrangement had been considered disposal I am trying to deal with the butcher, for a long time and that it was not an instant not the blocks. conception. Perhaps this is one of the biggest From my own knowledge, detectives rearrangements made in the Queensland working at C.I. Branch Headquarters in Police Force by this Government since it has Brisbane are completely dispirited by the taken office. In its seven years in office no conditions under which they work and, with similar rearrangement has taken place. This the morale prevailing, I can assure you, report was prepared by the Commissioner of Mr. Speaker, that most of them, if not all Police on 19 October, 1964, and in it he made of them, carry out only their essential duties no reference to the proposed change, which and indicate no spontaneous enthusiasm Appropriation Bill No. 2 [17 NovEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1597 whatsoever for their task. That is one of the transferred punitively, it is difficult to prove reasons for the big increase in crime, which that that is in fact the position, and, because should startle members of the Government. it cannot be proved, that particular police­ The largest increase, 9 ·19 per cent. occurred man becomes very dissatisfied in the Police in offences relating to violence to the person, Force. not ordinary, simple offences of obscene The Policemen's Manual referred to in language, obstructing traffic or resisting arrest. the report has not been brought up to date Does that not make the Government sit up for years. During its term of office, this and take notice? The largest increase in Government has not codified the amend­ offences is in those of violence to the person, ments that it has made to the Policemen's a serious type of offence. The rate of Manual. The index is completely archaic. increase generally was 3 · 77 per cent. The The Government keeps sending to the Commissioner goes on to make what could various police officers so many leaflets to be regarded as a factual and true observa­ stick in their manuals that they presently tion that "there is no real substitute for look like pakapu tickets. Even in that parental discipline combined with precept small regard it is manifestly obvious that and example set by parents." He is of course the Government cares little about the Police making that observation in regard to a Force. Actually it is not a small regard; family domestic set-up; but the observations it is important, because policemen have to remain equally true of the family of our equip themselves for their law examinations Queensland Police Force. I say quite clearly and to carry out their duties, and to gain a and categorically that, unless and until we proper knowledge of their duties and the get precept and example set by the parents law. of the Police Force, that is, the senior officers, we cannot hope to get a really Let us examine the serious situation in decent, enthusiastic, happy Police Force. I regard to traffic control, or the lack of it, say that the Commissioner could well study which has caused accidents in some cases his own words so far as the family of his resulting in road deaths. In 1960 deaths Police Force is concerned. due to road accidents amounted to 359, or 2·48 per 10,000 of population. In 1961 The Government says that it is putting men the number was 353, or 2·4 per 10,000 on the outskirts to control and supervise of population. In 1962 it was 341, or 2 · 24 traffic. Road accidents for the year showed per 10,000 of population. In 1963 the an increase of 3,502 over the previous year. figure increased to 420, or 2·71 per 10,000 I point out that, when this report is analysed of population, and in 1964, the period and studied closely it will be clearly under review, there were 441 deaths, a demonstrated that in every aspect of Police record for the period of four years, repre­ Force administration of any importance at senting 2 · 8 per 10,000 of population. Even all this Police Force is failing, and failing in traffic control the Government has miserably, to carry out its duties properly. failed in its administration of the Police There has been an increase of 3,502 road Department. accidents in the year under discussion. Road deaths resulting from those accidents I deal now with the administration of increased from 420 to 441. That leaves the Liquor Act, which, of course, is a thorny little room for complacency or self­ problem for the Government at present. satisfaction. They are not game to tackle it; they are afraid of it. They said a few years ago It is pointed out also that, although we that they were going to liberalise the liquor have 2,345 actual working male policemen, laws because if they were made more there are only 32 civilian clerks. This realistic and in keeping with the drinking Government has spoken a great deal about habits of the community, fewer offences relieving police officers from civilian clerk would be committed. Again they failed duties in order that they can carry out miserably. Their results must be embarrass­ essential police work and they have been ing to them. As a matter of fact, in the long about it because only 32 civilian clerks period under discussion, the total number are employed in the whole of the Police of offences committed under the Liquor Act, Force. Many of those policemen who following amendments made by the Govern­ should be out on beat, or should be trying to ment, amounted to 1,477, compared with solve these unsolved crimes, such as jewellery 927 in the year 1962-63. In other words, thefts, safe-breaking, and crimes of violence, in one year of their administration of the are too busily engaged sitting over a type­ liquor laws, there was an increase of writer typing out reports that girls could do. approximately 50 per cent in the number of offences committed. In spite of that, Mr. O'Donnell: And supply their own they would have us believe that they have typewriters, too. made liquor laws sane and that their amend­ ments have led to better drinking conditions. Mr. BENNETT: They have to buy their own typewriters too. It is obvious that Unfortunately time does not permit me punitive transfers have been made by the to refer to the great volume of cogent department, and I have no doubt that they evidence readily available in the report to have exercised some of them on the instruc­ prove that, in any aspect that one chooses tion of the Minister. When a person is to refer to, the Government and the Minister 1598 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

have failed in the administration of the of observations, and I shall deal with them Police Force. There have been record num­ in the order in which they were presented bers of road accidents, road fatalities, and to the House. offences committed under the Liquor Act, and they are not game to amend the Act The Deputy Leader of the Opposition this session because they are wondering presented the argument that the State should what certain sections of the community protect its revenue by raising more in might say. The record number of offences royalties on minerals, and he mentioned committed will grow and grow, and they casually other natural resources. It struck are hoping that by next year something me as an argument that should surely have will happen unbeknown to them to clarify been presented as one of the basic arguments the situation. Obviously the Minister and in the Budget debate, although it is not the Government have not a clue as to what really out of place when brought in at this amendments should be made to fortify the belated stage. Police Force in their enforcement of the Just let us refresh our minds on the liquor laws and to provide sensible drinking. history of mining royalties in Queensland. They just do not understand the problem, No mining royalties were charged in this which proves the weakness of the State until about 1955-56, when they were Government. introduced by the Gair Government. At the I have pointed out that the morale of time of their introduction leases issued by the Police Force is lower than it has ever the Government then in office were held by been in the entire history of the Force. existing mining enterprises, and it was found Again the Government will deny it. Even that there was a very grave doubt as to "The Sunday Mail" and "The Courier-Mail", whether the Crown had the power to impose which could not be claimed under any royalties on existing leases except on a circumstances to be supporters of the basis that would fairly scream of Australian Labour Party or any member repudiation. of it, have recognised and acknowledged The Labour Government of the day had that morale in the Police Force has never issued leases that carried no royalty been lower. Yet the Government still refuses obligation. What did it do? Sensitive of to do anything about it. The Commissioner this-I was present at the discussions­ of Police is screaming for more Police Mr. Gair spoke to the leaders of the mining officers, and the Government will not give industry and I remember him saying, "Look, them to him. He says that he cannot get we do not want to repudiate. On the other the number necessary to fill the Force; hand, we have a programme for extended the report does not explain why. Perhaps activity for the assistance of the mining he is either not game to explain why he industry. Can we reach some agreement by cannot get the additional men, or he can­ which you would agree to help on not understand why. Certainly there is grave a voluntary basis?" In fact, I think I discontent in the Police Force. There is am correct in saying that, virtually without still political activity going on in it, no exception, the mining companies which had doubt aided and abetted by the Government. mining leases that imposed no obligation on them to pay royalties entered into voluntary I point out to the Minister that he is agreement with the Department of Mines. now regarded in legal circles as the "Minister The royalties now being paid are being paid for Free Parking" because in his electorate in terms of the agreement that was then he went out and collected all the parking made. tickets placed on motorists' cars. I wonder what he would do in my electorate. I The suggestion is now made that we should wonder would he go up to Toowoomba go back on these conditions and repudiate and retrieve all the parking tickets there. the deal made by a Government in power If they were legally issued, it seems a on a voluntary rearrangement of leases that strange thing for a Minister in charge of had been entered into without any royalty the Police Force to do--to send out mem­ obligation. bers of the Police Force, as he said in this Mr. Lloyd: I criticised the agreements that House, to retrieve those tickets. you were entering into. At 11 p.m., Mr. HILEY: That was a later facet of the Mr. SPEAKER: Order! Under the pro­ hon. member's argument. He urged that visions of Standing Order No. 307 and Queensland should follow the example set Sessional Order agreed to by the House on by New South Wales and get a greater share 14 October, the sitting will be extended to of royalties from all the mining companies. enable the Treasurer to make his speech in It is true that in New South Wales the reply, after which all questions necessary for Labour Government has always made the the passage of the remaining stages of the payment of royalties an integral part of its Bill will be put without amendment or mining leases. It was never part of a debate. Labour Government's policy in Queensland. The payment of royalties was not brought Hon. T. A. HILEY (Chatsworth­ in by force of State in regard to existing Treasurer) (11.1 p.m.), in reply: Some matters leases-it was for future leases-but by that have been raised warrant the making agreement with the companies. What the Appropriation Bill No. 2 [17 NovEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1599 hon. member for Kedron is now saying is Mr. Lloyd: You agree with part of my that we should repudiate that agreement and argument in relation to export? put a heavier hand on the companies, despite the fact that they were decent enough to Mr. HILEY: The hon. member's general make a deal with the Government of the complaint was that we were not getting day. That is not the Government's view. enough mining royalties and that we should copy New South Wales, which is getting Mr. Uoyd: I specifically mentioned exports. some millions this year. All we say is that in these matters it is not good sense for Mr. HILEY: The hon. member did. That any Government to be so silly as to kill was the second line of his argument. He the goose that lays real eggs, and anyone then referred to exports and to new leases. who studies the pattern of these industries What are the new leases of particular and imagines that one measures the benefit significance that the Government has given? :purely by saying how much royalty we get There has been glib talk of the great royalties JUst does not understand the way these that the Government of New South Wales industries function. Take the coal industry, obtains from the silver-lead industry, which is which the hon. member's colleague from its biggest source. It does not get much from Central Queensland really understands coal. No-one can, because coal is a com­ because he has watched it grow and modity that is only worth shillings a ton. develop. What would the State get out of You can only put pennies of royalty on the export of coal from Central Queens­ coal or you will kill it stone dead. land? First of all, it gets the royalty and the hon. member will be interested to know !VIr. Hanson: Some of the private mine­ that part of the deal that has been negotiated owners in New South Wales get up to 6d. will provide for the sweetening of that a ton. royalty. I am not going to tell the hon. members the details-- Mr. HILEY: That is right, but it is only Mr. Lloyd: You are stealing part of my pence a ton because the selling price in argument. Australia is measured in shillings. It is not the same here as in some countries Mr. HILEY: The hon. member read it of the world where coal sells for pounds in the paper and put it forward as his own a ton. statement. He is like the man who read the Book of Isaiah and a week later made Then, what about bauxite? It is a raw the prophecy. material that is quarried cheaply and is worth in its quarried form only a matter In addition to royalty the State gets rents, of shillings. Once you go through the which will not be an inconsiderable sum, process of turning the bauxite first into and, in respect of any other type of land alumina, in turn into aluminium and then usage, those rents, would be a fraction of smelt it to the purified metal, the costs of what will be produced as mining rents. that processing are the dominant factor in Mr. Hanson: Tuppence an acre. the cost of aluminium. But any Government that attempted, with crude, raw, quarried Mr. HILEY: What would we get for that material like bauxite, to say, "Here we land per week for any other purpose? For have something precious. We will sell this any other purpose we would not get tuppence as if it were diamonds," would ensure that a square mile. it stayed like diamonds in the bowels of the earth forever because it would kill the Mr. Evans: Under the Mining Act it was industry stone dead. 10s. Mr. Hanson: Yes, tuppence a week. Mr. Lloyd interjected. Mr. HILEY: If we were to charge 10s. Mr. HILEY: That is only on the export. for Weipa, we would have no industry at The Minister for Mines made that deal as all. an interim deal because he does not want the export to be a continuing picture. He The benefit to the State does not stop penalises export with the ls. a ton and it there. The hon. member for Port Curtis fully will come down to 6d. as soon as they treat appreciates that, because of the vast tonnages it in Australia. That is perfectly logical, flowing through, the benefit in harbour dues and anyone who studies the whole pattern of will be very real indeed. It will enable the the treatment of alumina and bauxite knows port of Gladstone to grow up out of its it would be inexcusable if we sat down and short pants stage into full maturity as a merely contented ourselves with quarrying port capable of comparison with any major bauxite and shipping it to the manufacturers port in the world in its capacity. Without of the world. The approach of the Minister the royalties the harbour dues flowing from for Mines to this question is on the policy, the great coal trade would not be possible. "We will let you have some interim develop­ It has already been clearly indicated from ment but you will pay a premium rate of the Premier's announcement that the move royalty on it. When you can produce it is shortly to come to the House in terms of in Australia you will go down to the low which, instead of the railway being conducted rate of royalty." That is completely sensible. privately by the operating company it will 1600 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

be a State-owned railway, largely with funds location of the Constance Range mine would made available by the mining company. The involve the construction of a railway line profits from the conduct of that railway­ 146 miles in length to a port in the Gulf of ! assure hon. members they will be all Carpentaria. profits-will remain with this State. The Anyone who suggests that ore which is not benefits from this industry are not merely as good in quality, which has to be mined royalty-they are royalty, they are rent, they underground and hauled 146 miles on a are harbour dues, they are rail profits, and private line, is worth a royalty comparable in addition to that there will be a tremendous with what can be obtained for the high-grade lift in employment and housing and the ore at Hamersley, just does not understand auxiliary services of power and water in that the economics involved. I repeat that we are area. The benefits in tax reimbursements still hoping that some day, in spite of the on those items will be quite considerable. disabilities, we will succeed in interesting They will convert Gladstone from a small someone in Constance Range. I also say that town into an infinitely larger town. Already if we are silly enough to say that the royalty if you go to Gladstone and try to buy a will be 7s., which is the Western Australian piece of commercial property you will find rate, heavens above, we will never get any­ that the local people have assessed the benefit one interested. of all this. They know. I would say that the next time the Valuer-General goes to Mr. Lloyd: The Western Australian rate Gladstone and values the main street the is from 6s. down to 3s. 6d. hon. member for Port Curtis will really have troubles. Mr. HILEY: With the grade of ore avail­ able for export it works out at 7s., but even This notion that the benefit to the State the 3s. 6d. would not be possible for us with from the development in the mining industry the lower-grade-underground mine 146 miles is appreciable only in terms of royalties is a back from the coast. completely myopic approach. The benefits The next line taken by the hon. member go far wider than that. I would say that the for Kedron was that he feared that many of benefits from these mining leases will be very these tasks being undertaken in State develop­ great and very enduring. ment-he acknowledged that they were taking Mr. Dufficy: What is the Government's place-would become a burden on Queens­ approach to Mount Isa at the present time? land taxpayers in future years. I can only say that if they do they would not be the Mr. HILEY: I am talking about mining first public development task carried out in royalties. Had the hon. member been in the Australia which has proved to be some burden House and raised the point I would have on the taxpayers. However, our present vision replied to him. I do not propose to reply of each one of them is that not one of them to any new matters raised by interjection at should be a burden. To date, our experience this stage. Some of his colleagues were with the brigalow scheme is that there has courteous enough to speak and I intend to been such a surging demand for the land that be courteous enough to reply to them. my colleague the Minister for Lands was able to say to me the other day that we are selling The matter of Constance Range was raised. a much greater proportion of the lands for Remember that this Government, through the the complete cost of recovery-much more Minister for Mines, gave the lease not to than was ever anticipated-and in fact he told an overseas company, but to Broken Hill me he is in a position to look for some Proprietary Co. Ltd.-the best opportunity additional fringe areas because he will under­ we could then command within Australia. spend the moneys available by £2,000,000 if Under the terms of that prospecting lease he merely contents himself with the designed the company spent large sums on explora­ areas. It does not look as if we will come tion-over£ 00,000. We have all the records; out badly there. All the evidence today points we have all the bore samples; we have all to the fact that we will come out of the the information available from that explora­ brigalow scheme extremely well without any tion expenditure. The lease has expired and charge on the Queensland taxpayer. the Minister has made his attitude completely clear to the company. He has said to the Mr. Lloyd: It is against the Commonwealth Broken Hill people, who spent £700,000, Government. "You work this property or step aside and make way for somebody else who will." That Mr. HILEY: The hon. member spoke of is the attitude he takes today. Let us be the cost to the taxpayer, and I assumed that quite clear: the royalty would not be as he was talking about the Queensland tax­ high, nor should it be as high as the royalty payer. in Western Australia. In the first place the Mr. Lloyd: I was. ore is superior at Hamersley Range, and, secondly, it is open-cut mining there whereas Mr. HILEY: Let us look at some of the a tremendous expenditure on underground others. Let us consider alumina, on which mining would be incurred at Constance it is true that some considerable expenditure Range. A good deal of the ore is in a basin will be incurred. It is not the view of the that is subject to flooding, and this presents Government that the expenditure incurred a problem of operation. In addition, the on alumina development, both at Weipa and Appropriation Bill No. 2 [17 NOVEMBER} Appropriation Bill No. 2 1601 at Gladstone, should be any burden on the This is not a time to go to the wailing Queensland taxpayer. In the case of port wall and go begging and pleading for some development, it should be serviced by har­ other Government to burden its taxpayers bour dues; in the case of extra water facili­ to see us through. Queensland is fortunate ties, by charges for water services; in the in having so many developmental oppor­ case of extra power facilities, by the charges tunities that can stand on the feet of their for power. I might observe that nowhere in own economies. We are not an impoverished, the State have we put in power that has bankrupt State going mendicant-like to plead proved to be any burden on the average tax­ for somebody to prop up its uneconomic payer, with the exception of the Far West industries. I would hate to feel that we where we tempered the charges to the "shorn were so poor in our resources that we lamb" by providing a modest degree of sub­ had no good economic industries and to sidy for power in the far-western areas. get some weak brother out of trouble, we Everywhere else, expenditure on power has had to go to Big Brother in Canberra been a rewarding expenditure and there is and say, "Please prop up this industry, nothing to suggest that the power facilities, which cannot stand on its own feet." We the water facilities, the port facilities and are lucky to have such a variety and money spent in connection with the alumina quality of industries that can organise and development will not be equally rewarding. stand on their own feet without placing The refineries will not only bear all their a burden on the general taxpayer. related expenditure but, in addition, we Mr. Hanson: According to the Common­ were fortunate enough in that they have wealth Statistician, we have the lowest contributed £750,000 as a capital contribu­ increase in population rate to 30 June last tion. year of any State in Australia. As to the sugar developments and bulk­ Mr. HILEY: The Commonwealth Statis­ handling, at no time has the sugar industry tician has never yet measured the population cost the taxpayer of this State one penny­ of this State correctly. He has always been never in its history. The sugar industry has under the correct figure. This will rock the not only manfully borne all its related expenses but it has also set an example hon. member. The Statistician could not even correctly measure the population of which I think many other primary industries could follow. It has borne the cost of its Tasmania. We can only get to Tasmania own research and has contributed to com­ by air or by sea, and, according to the last munity benefits in a manner which sets the census statistics, 3,500 people must have finest example of any primary industry in swum across Bass Strait. The hon. member Australia. No other primary industry in should not try to make capital out of that. Australia has faced up more manfully to its Mr. Hanson: If he is wrong, then he is responsibilities for servicing its own needs wrong everywhere. and for contributing to its general commun­ ity welfare. I cannot believe that there is Mr. HILEY: He is always consistently any substance in the suggestion that the against us. One of the reasons is that building of bulk-sugar terminals and other people hitch-hike from the South and by port develonments by the sugar industry will various other means find their way to ever constitute any burden on the Queens­ Queensland looking for seasonal work in the land taxpayer. shearing, meat, or sugar industry; they come up here from Sydney broke, but they fly Mr. Lloyd: Who said it would? back because their pockets are full of money from their earnings, and they are counted Mr. HII,EY: The hon. member said that when they fly back. these developments will throw some burden on the Queensland taxpayer, and I am Mr. Hanson: A lot of Commonwealth examining them to find out which of them people made a good deal of money out of will. Queensland mining and willed it to southern universities. Mr. Lloyd: I criticised the Commonwealth Government for not extending to us the Mr. HILEY: I know that. same form of assistance as it is extending The hon. member for South Brisbane to New South Wales coal. raised the question of legal aid. Because he could find nothing in the Estimates he Mr. HaEY: Our concept is that coal assumed that nothing is intended in that will bear its own related expenditure and regard. I can assure him that his assump­ indeed, as I have indicated, the expecta­ tion is wrong. There is a move under tion is that the coal industry will contribute detailed examination now. I have been millions of pounds to the public by way brought into it and have spent some time of State Government revenue. The motor­ on it. My colleague the Minister for Justice car, fertiliser, oil, and gas industries, to has spent much more time on it. That our concept, will not impose any burden move will ensure, in my judgment, generous on the general taxpayer. Private capital aid in civil cases from sources organised built the oil pipeline, and in due course by the State and provided by the State but private money will finance the gas pipeline. involving no charge on the general taxpayer. 1602 Appropriation Bill No. 2 [ASSEMBLY] Appropriation Bill No. 2

Mr. Bennett: When is this going to be Let us see if the trouble lies in numbers. introduced? Much has been made of the fact that the Police Force is not up to strength. It Mr. HILEY: I believe it could be ready never is, and never has been. It has been for the short session next year. Beyond that, said that the Force is 31 below strength. I do not propose to make any disclosure. In the last year before we took office it It has been a matter involving a great deal was 77 below strength. of negotiation and examination and until there is an agreed scheme evolved no Mr. Bennett: When the Commissioner announcement on the details should be made, asks for an increased allocation, surely you and then they should be made in the proper can keep the strength up. way by my colleague the Minister for Justice. Mr. HILEY: Let us consider that inter­ I can assure the hon. member that a great jection. I am glad to hear that the hon. deal of work has been done on it and I member for South Brisbane has discovered am hopeful that a really worth-while scheme a prophet and now wants to quote him. of aid in civil cases, which was our election After listening for months and months to promise, will be evolved without any charge his efforts to vilify the Commissioner, it is on the general taxpayer. The hon. member so very refreshing to hear the hon. member can speculate on it and work it out. There clothe him in shining armour. Isn't it a will be a lot of money involved. If it beautiful experience? comes off it will be quite a brilliant and worth-while move. Mr. Bennett: I am merely referring to the The hon. member then proceeded to report. He is no knight in shining armour. indulge his phobia against the Police Force and the Commissioner of Police. I must Mr. HILEY: The fact of the matter is confess that he really delighted me. I that there are now in the Police Force could not believe my ears. For years I approximately 500 more effective men than have heard him fulminating and showing there were when we took office. So his animosity towards, and detestation of, the far as their effectiveness and their vehicles, Commissioner of Police, yet he spent the equipment, radio sets, radar speed meters, whole of his time tonight quoting from his etc., are concerned, the difference between the report. If ever the Devil quoted scripture, Force then and now is the difference between it happened tonight. mid-day and midnight. Queensland has more The hon. member made a great issue of police in proportion to population than almost discontent in the Police Force and attempted every other State. The only conclusion is to base his claims on the number of resig­ that our trouble is not to be found in the nations from the Force. Of course, it is number of police officers but the manner in found everywhere that the nearer the which they are employed and deployed. The economy gets to full employment, the more Commissioner, with the full approval of the resignations there are. It is one of the Government, is endeavouring to correct the symptoms of a fully employed society. employment and deployment of police officers Under these conditions, people feel free to in such a way as to use the already very move from job to job. When jobs are considerable number of police officers, the scarce, they do not resign; they hang tight. best relatively of any mainland State, to better advantage. Mr. Bennett: But they don't resign after being in the service 10 or 12 years. The Government has a general high regard for its Police Force. It retains that regard Mr. HILEY: Don't they? Of course they in spite of the fact that within a Force as do. Teachers do it, and the same trend is large as this one there is a very small num­ found in all sections of the community. ber of bad policemen, as will be found in any One of the blessings of a high degree of service or calling that anyone cares to employment is that people feel free to move nominate anywhere in the world. Signifi­ from job to job. There is much more move­ cantly, it seems to me that those constantly ment of employees under these conditions speaking of discontent are the ones who than there is when jobs are scarce. There always plead the case of the bad policeman. are then not so many resignations because One never hears them extolling in general people do not know where their next job terms the quality and work of the great body will be. of good policemen that the State rejoices to On this question of discontent, let us look have in its service. I repeat that the present at some examples. Will any member of the view of the Government is that the answer House deny that the Police Force is today to this problem lies not merely in recruiting relatively better paid than it was when we more and more men. It believes that the took office? Will anyone deny that police better answer is in the more effective use of officers enjoy an infinitely better pensions equipment by the police, and it has been scheme than when we took office? endeavouring steadily to mould the Force towards that end. Mr. Dufficy: But they are more unhappy now. Dealing with road deaths, it is true that the number has increased. But if the hon. Mr. HILEY: They must have been talk­ gentleman studied even the figures given ing to the hon. member for Warrego. in the little pocket year book, he would Appropriation Bill No. 2 [17 NOVEMBER] Appropriation Bill No. 2 1603 find that over the period that the Govern­ drew them to the attention of my colleagues. ment has been in office road deaths have Computers deal with the statistics and reduce increased by about one-third and that the all the tables to extremely fine tolerances number of vehicles registrations has increased and they can then be read far more accur­ by about 50 per cent. ately. In Honolulu, for example, the rate of motor insurance premium for an Mr. Lloyd: You increased the speed limit unmarried boy of 17 is four times the across intersections and the speed limit on premium for a married man of 30. Between the roads. 17 and 25 the rate drops each year, and it drops quite substantially if a man marries. Mr. HILEY: And, with the increased It has been found that a married man, no number of vehicles, the roads would have matter how young he is, is an infinitely become choked if we had retained the old better motoring risk than an unmarried man. speed limits. We have adopted the common While a man is unmarried, the younger he standard; we have not departed from the national code. is, the more lethal he i·s. But as each year goes by the risk decreases, and the accident No-one takes anything other than sorrow rate drops substantially when he gets from the fact that one of the symptoms of married. the civilisation of the age in which we live Mr. Dnfficy: The married driver would is that more and more people want to ride in vehicles and that, unfortunately, more have both hands on the wheel. and more people, particularly young people, Mr. HILEY: I bow to the hon. member's are killed in road accidents. However, we infinitely greater experience. can derive some comfort-it is only minor comfort-from the fact that although the We have endeavoured to do a bit here. number of registered motor vehicles in the We have endeavoured to bring in the start State has increased by 50 per cent since of sanctions. Now that I see what is the Government came to office, the number happening overseas where this computer of road deaths has increased by something information is available, I realise that we less than 30 per cent. I think hon. members have not even started to nibble at these will agree that that is at least some comfort. differential rates. We have not, for example, struck separate rates for males and females, The Government is not adopting the which many overseas countries think are stereotyped approaches of the past; it is try­ warranted. For example-and this will ing various devices that it thinks will assist. make hon. members smile-they think the Mistakes will be made, but at least an honest unmarried women over 55 is the best risk and genuine attempt is being made to keep of all. She is rewarded with the lowest pace with the rising death toll on the roads, premium of all. to ensure that one of the great scourges of our present state of civilisation is not allowed At the end of a very long and tedious to get out of hand, and to combat it in debate, I am refreshed to think that there some way. I do not pretend that we will has not been any serious criticism but rather ever stop the desire of people who command a good deal of interesting and helpful con­ a better standard of living to use motor tribution. These matters go to departmental vehicles. I have always believed that in a officers. Many people feel that, when they country such as Australia, with considerable put up a case, it is quickly dismissed and road space, with glorious beaches, with a it does not mean much, but I say to hon. lovely countryside, the use of motor vehicles members on both sides that they would be is so instinctive to the ordinary Australian astonished to know just how much serious citizen that it would be a horrible thing if attention is given by Crown servants to we ever set out to limit it or to deny it the cases put up, whenever, and wherever completely. Cars are more powerful; roads they come from. Very often the sugges­ are better; the number of registrations is tion is not in season and will be laid aside; increasing. I think that the best we can then, six or 12 months later, it may come seriously hope is that, please God, we will up and take its place. manage to ensure that the increase in the number of deaths on the roads is at a rate Motion (Mr. Hiley) agreed to. lower than the relative increase in the number of motor vehicles. If we can COMMITTEE succeed in that, I think it will provide at (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. least some comfort. Every death is some­ Hooper, Greenslopes, in the chair.) thing that sensible people will bemoan and regret; but I am afraid that there will be Clauses 1 to 8, both inclusive, schedule roads deaths as long as there are motor and preamble, as read, agreed to. vehicles, and, unhappily, because of the Bill reported, without amendment. recklessness and the lack of balance of youth, there will always be a preponderance of deaths at the younger level. THIRD READING Bill, on motion of Mr. Hiley, read a I was interested to read of the adjustment of motor vehicle insurance premiums over­ third time. seas. They were quite staggering, and I The House adjourned at 11.40 p.m.