Seanad Éireann

Vol. 234 Thursday, No. 11 9 October 2014

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES Seanad Éireann

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Insert Date Here

09/10/2014A00100Business of Seanad ��716

09/10/2014B00300Order of Business ��716

09/10/2014J00100Forestry Bill 2013: Committee Stage ��732

09/10/2014W00800Adjournment Matters ��761

09/10/2014W00900Local Authority Staff ��761 SEANAD ÉIREANN

Déardaoin, 9 Deireadh Fómhair 2014

Thursday, 9 October 2014

Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m.

Machnamh agus Paidir. Reflection and Prayer.

09/10/2014A00100Business of Seanad

09/10/2014B00200An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator Mark Daly that, on the motion for the Adjournment of the House today, he proposes to raise the following matter:

The need for the Taoiseach to discuss the reason he has not yet released documents prepared for his Department prior to the Seanad referendum in 2013, and his intentions in this regard.

I have also received notice from Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh of the following matter:

An gá atá le soiléiriú ón Aire Comhshaoil, Pobail agus Rialtais Aitiúil an bhfuil sé ar intinn aige imscrúdú neamhspleách a lorg i ndáil leis an gcaoi ar láimhseáil Comhairle Cath- rach na Gaillimhe cás duine (sonraí tugtha) agus imthosca an cháis seo agus chun a fhiafraí an aontaíonn sé gur gá athbhreithniú a dhéanamh ar chumhacht feidhmeannach sna húdaráis áitiúla dá bharr sin.

I regard the matters raised by the Senators as suitable for discussion on the Adjournment and they will be taken at the conclusion of business.

09/10/2014B00300Order of Business

09/10/2014B00400Senator Ivana Bacik: The Order of Business is No. 1, Forestry Bill 2013 - Committee Stage, to be taken at 11.45 a.m.

09/10/2014B00500Senator Darragh O’Brien: The business of the House started today at 10.41 a.m., even though the Order of Business was due to start at 10.30 a.m. That was not the Cathaoirleach’s problem, as there was no quorum, but I understand Standing Orders provide that the House will fall after a certain period of time. I advise all groups who are here, and those who are not here, 716 9 October 2014 that this is happening on a daily basis and it is difficult to muster a quorum in order to get the business started. This is something that can addressed through the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, or the parties and groupings could remind Members of Standing Orders so that we can have an efficient start to our business.

I ask the Deputy Leader to follow up on the issue of home help gratuities, which I have raised on a number of occasions over the last three years. In 2009, the Labour Court held that home help workers were entitled to a gratuity of 4.5 weeks of pay per year of service in lieu of their pension entitlements. There were two Labour Court recommendations. In 2011 the Government indicated that it would pay the gratuity in 2012. I have written to the new Minister for Health on four occasions since he was appointed to his position, but all I have received is a series of acknowledgements. Home help workers are low-paid workers and many of them are on the minimum wage. They play a very important role in our health service by helping to ensure that people can stay in their homes. I do not think anyone would want to treat these workers in this way, but I cannot even get a response on the matter. If one considers the situation across the country, one could calculate that the bill for paying what is due to them is probably €8 million. This is a once-off payment. I understand the Minister will be in the House in a couple of weeks’ time to deal with health legislation. I ask the Deputy Leader to flag with him my intention to raise this issue or, alternatively, to facilitate half an hour before or after the debate if the issue is not appropriate to the legislation. I have previously raised the issue on the Adjournment, but if the Minister could spare 15 or 30 minutes for a quick debate, we might be able to make progress on it.

I have repeatedly raised the issue of fampridine or Fampyra, the multiple sclerosis drug which since 1 July has not been available to many multiple sclerosis sufferers. The drug gives people back their mobility and independence. I understand the HSE has been assessing a new proposal from the drug company since 22 July. That is a long time.

09/10/2014B00600An Cathaoirleach: That was raised as an Adjournment matter earlier this week.

09/10/2014B00700Senator Darragh O’Brien: Was it?

09/10/2014B00800An Cathaoirleach: It was raised by Senator Conway.

09/10/2014B00900Senator Darragh O’Brien: That was very good of him. I am glad he has come on board, but he probably got the same answer that I got. I have been writing to the Minister on a weekly basis. I ask the Deputy Leader to raise it again and I also intend to raise it with the Minister.

09/10/2014B01000Senator Paul Coghlan: I accept Senator Darragh O’Brien’s point regarding the quorum at the start of business at 10.30 a.m. and assure him that I will raise the matter at our group meeting next week. Perhaps, as he suggested, all parties should deal with the issue and put in place a rota, because it is a serious matter. Nobody wishes the House to collapse for want of a quorum in the morning.

I welcome the good news story of the €300 million boost for social housing from the Eu- ropean Investment Bank. This is the first time it has become involved with a social housing programme in this country. It will work with the Housing Finance Agency. It is welcome news, particularly for the capital, given its serious housing shortage. We have a duty to look after people who are most in need. Adequate and affordable housing is a basic need in society. The EIB has a great record throughout the UK and in the Netherlands in this area, but this is its first time to venture into Ireland. The programme, which will last from 2014 to 2017, will provide 717 Seanad Éireann approximately 2,400 housing units and fund the retrofitting of some existing housing stock. This balance is to be greatly welcomed, particularly for the capital city, with which Senator Darragh O’Brien and all the rest of us will be concerned. The details of the investment will be developed in a short time.

09/10/2014B01100Senator Katherine Zappone: I have a question for the Deputy Leader in regard to the announcement by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform on the revision of the model for ministerial appointments to State boards. As we are all aware, this revision was prompted by the questions raised by Members on both sides of Seanad Éireann about the lack of transparency in the past. According to his announcement, the Minister wants to provide us with a credible, transparent and robust appointments model, and the information will contain a number of things, including terms of appointment, gender balance and other diversity provisions. In specific regard to the terms of appointments, will the revised model provide for comprehensive information and rationales for the remuneration given to chairs and board members? We do not have a comprehensive list of how much State board chairpersons and directors are remunerated. I have a partial list thanks to the research carried out by our great Library and Research Service team over the last couple of weeks, and I happy to offer it to the Minister or his Depart- ment. However, we should have a comprehensive list and, more important, the rationale for any diversity of remuneration on various boards. For example, the chair of Bord Bia receives €20,520 and the chair of Horse Racing Ireland receives €21,600, while board members receive €12,600. In the arts sector, the chair of the National Gallery receives €8,978. All of the board chairpersons of arts bodies receive approximately that amount. The chair of the Adoption Au- thority of Ireland receives €63,000. The Mining Board pays daily fees of €582.97. The Dublin Docklands Development Authority pays remuneration of €20,520 to its chair. I selected these random examples to demonstrate the degree of diversity that exists. I am not necessarily saying that board members on other bodies do not have comparable qualifications or provide comparable amounts of time to their boards. The biggest surprise in my research is from the Department of Education and Skills, where there is only one board and chair in receipt of remuneration, namely, the HEA at €7,695. No other chairs or members of State boards in the Department of Education and Skills are remunerated. We must raise questions with regard to the rationale for that and the importance of people who contribute their time and qualifications to State boards in relation to education. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Public Expenditure and Re- form, Deputy Howlin, to debate these issues with us prior to the publication of his guidelines. We need comprehensive information on remuneration and its rationale. The Leader must raise with the Minister and his Cabinet colleagues the question of why State boards in the education sector are not remunerated.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for giving me a little extra time. Finally, I ask the Leader if there is any progress on my earlier request for Government time for Committee Stage of the Seanad reform Bill Senator Quinn and I put forward.

09/10/2014C00200Senator Sean D. Barrett: I note that the Irish banks have been in Frankfurt in the last few days to discuss the forthcoming stress tests with the ECB. As noted by John Walsh in the Irish Examiner today, the last round of stress tests were far too soft. We need to replace zombie banks with working banks and to get a greater level of economic expertise in there. I express the hope that the stress tests in Irish banks will be brought to a speedy conclusion.

I note and welcome the statement by Dublin Port Company at An Bord Pleanála yesterday to the effect that it does not intend to engage in further in-fill in Dublin Bay, either at Clontarf or Sandymount. Having the Dublin Port Company in harmony with its neighbours is to be 718 9 October 2014 commended. It presents the port area and Dublin Bay, including Bull Island, as an amenity and environmental facility for the citizens. That harmony between the port company and the citizens is much to be welcomed. People like Sean Dublin Bay Loftus spent a great deal of their political careers trying to ensure that harmony would break out. It is welcome that the company now sees a better relationship with its neighbours from Sutton right around to Sandymount.

09/10/2014C00300Senator Aideen Hayden: I welcome the announcement that talks are taking place with the EIB on co-funding social housing. We have had a number of reports this week which have focused on housing generally and social housing in particular. On Tuesday, the Governor of the Central Bank opened a consultation process on proposals to restrict mortgage lending. We also had Dublin City Council announce that social housing waiting lists have gone up to 20,000 in its functional area, which is an increase of 3,000. Yesterday, the ESRI asked the Government to spend an additional €500 million in the budget on social housing while today the Nevin Eco- nomic Research Institute requested the Government to spend billions not millions of euro on social housing construction, arguing that it will help the economy to grow. All of this is welcome.

Housing is in crisis and that can only be resolved by robust construction. However, even if we had shovel-ready projects and bulldozers in the field, it would take 12 to 18 months to create an appreciable improvement in supply. In the meantime, we have a serious problem on the ground, particularly in view of the growing needs of those presenting as homeless. I ask the Leader to put it to Government that in the forthcoming budget we must commit whatever funds are necessary to deal with the problem of homelessness. Given that so many people on social welfare and low incomes are depending on the rental market in the meantime for their housing, I ask for measures to be put in place to stop exorbitant rent increases taking place. In particular, I ask the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, to increase rent supplement limits to ensure that families can find and keep rental housing until longer-term issues of housing supply are resolved.

While I am happy that we will soon have a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, when he announces his strategy on social housing, I would also like to see a debate on rental housing. The reality is that one in five families is living in rental housing and depending on private landlords with little or no security of tenure. Perhaps, the Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, might take that debate.

09/10/2014C00400Senator Feargal Quinn: There is a challenge to small towns and villages right around the country from the closure over the last number of years of post offices. I draw the Government’s attention to a development in France where the French postal service, La Poste, has arranged that postmen will not just deliver letters and parcels but will undertake to visit homes, particularly the homes of the elderly, to check gas meters and do other work not associated with the postal service traditionally. The concept is a very good one. A number of local authorities have undertaken to engage with the post office so that postmen have a chance to visit residents and check things like gas meters. I mention it because residents do not pay for the service and any cost is met by councils. We must be imaginative enough to think and challenge the various roles we have. There are certainly criticisms and towns and villages are losing some of the es- sential elements they have had in the past, including Garda stations and post offices.

We had a very good debate in the House a couple of months ago on defibrillators and their placement around the country in State and health buildings and elsewhere. The Minister accepted the concept but asked HIQA to undertake a health technology assessment. It did that two weeks ago and has said it wants responses back by the end of next week. It is a reminder for us 719 Seanad Éireann to see what we can challenge and question to enhance the report. The use of defibrillators saves many lives. The figure as to how many provided by HIQA is questionable as it believes a limited number will be saved at a very heavy cost. That can be challenged, but it is not challenged as much as discussed. The whole country should have an input into the report, submissions on which have been requested by the end of next week. It is a very short period, but it is enough to make sure we get that in.

Senator Zappone referred to the work she has done identifying payments to State board members and chairmen. We introduced and discussed a Bill here, which was not accepted, which sought to provide that chairmen and members of State boards should not be paid. The vast majority of people would be willing to undertake work for State boards without pay, although they would obviously get expenses. That is something we should consider, particularly taking into account Senator Zappone’s work which shows the varying levels of payments to chairmen and members of State boards.

09/10/2014C00500Senator Michael Mullins: I welcome the fact that €150 million will be invested by the European Investment Bank in social housing in the State between now and 2017. While the building of 2,400 units is certainly to be welcomed, I hope the Government in the forthcoming budget ensures further significant investment in social housing also takes place.

Yesterday, the HSE published a report entitled Community Health Care Organisations - Re- port and Recommendations of the Integrated Service Area Review Group. The report sets out how health services outside the acute hospitals will be organised and managed. It involves, among other things, the establishment of nine community health care organisations and the development of 90 primary care networks averaging a population of 50,000 people, with each community health organisation having an average of ten networks to support groups of primary care teams and enable integration of all services for a local population. This will see the reform of social care, mental health and health and well-being services to better serve local communities. This is a very significant development and it would be appropriate to have the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, attend the House as soon as possible to tease out the report to ensure past mistakes are not repeated. I ask the Acting Leader to organise that debate in the near future.

09/10/2014C00600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Aird a tharraingt mé an cás na n-altraí inniu. I rise today to highlight the issues around the nursing profession and the difficulties in which it finds itself. There has been an exodus of young nurses from the State in the last number of years as they cannot make ends meet while working at their profession here.

11 o’clock

SIPTU members are protesting today outside the annual conference of the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland to highlight the refusal by the board to deal with the issue of the increase in the retention fee for members from €100 to €150. This increase comes on top of increases introduced last year. Nurses are concerned because they cannot afford to pay this on top of all the other significant costs they must pay. They have suffered significant financial reductions over the past number of years, including pay cuts, the imposition of levies and the universal social charge, and they say they are not in a position to pay the increased fees to the NMBI.

The broader scenario is that we have a crisis. In the west, we have seen protests by nurses

720 9 October 2014 in Galway outside University Hospital Galway regarding their conditions. Positions have been advertised by HSE West for nurses in nursing homes and it is finding it difficult to fill those positions because nurses will not work under the current conditions. We need to face up to this crisis and I would welcome a debate on the future of the nursing profession and midwives here. This would be a useful debate to ensure that we support the nursing fraternity for the future and ensure we have enough people coming into the system who can continue the fantastic job being done in front-line services.

09/10/2014D00200Senator John Whelan: As we speak, the Irish Wind Energy Association is having its annual conference in Kilkenny. This association continues to flog a dead horse and make outra- geous and unsubstantiated claims about the thousands of jobs the wind industry will generate or create in rural Ireland, which is, of course, a fallacy.

Will the Leader facilitate an urgent debate with the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy White, on foot of yesterday’s game-changing decision by the European Union and the United Kingdom to build a new generation of nuclear power plants in our backyard? They are so close to us that they might as well be in Dublin. I am not going to debate the merits or otherwise of nuclear energy today. This is an issue for others and for another day. The fact that the European Union has confirmed the nuclear installation, which will cost an astronomical €65 billion and will be subsidised by the British Government to the tune of €20 billion, will go ahead, puts paid to the notion that British consumers or the Brit- ish Government were ever going to purchase Irish wind energy through the notional export of wind from Ireland. That project has been hanging around on life support for the past number of months, but we can honestly say today that the UK Government has pulled the plug on it once and for all. There will be no export of wind energy from Ireland to the United Kingdom, which has instead taken the nuclear option. This is a significant issue for Ireland and our economy. Effectively, we will now import nuclear energy through the interconnector to fuel and generate power for Irish homes, farms and factories.

We can no longer remain in denial on this. Our new energy policy must take cognisance of what is happening in the United Kingdom, of the amazing and significant decision regarding the Hinkley Point nuclear power station and the fact that in the past three months, despite scaremongering regarding the Ukrainian situation, oil prices have decreased by 16%. The wind industry must cop on. Our policy must stop the mad proposal to build thousands of wind farms across rural Ireland and wind turbines which will end up as rusting hulks on our landscape if we go ahead with this fallacy.

09/10/2014D00300Senator David Norris: I note Senator Zappone has called for discussion of the Bill that she and Senator Quinn have sponsored, but I believe that discussion would be too narrow. We need a full discussion, not a discussion of a Bill prepared by legal authorities who have little understanding of how the Seanad works. We need to concentrate on the utter scandal of the situation that will arise tomorrow, when the result of a by-election with a total voting register was 225 is disclosed.

I have been raising this issue for weeks, but none of the media has taken it up. This register is the rotten borough if one wants one, but the Taoiseach, Deputy Kenny, has taken no interest in attacking the issue, although he is diluting the university seats by introducing an electorate of 850,000. Square that - an electorate of 225 as opposed to 850,000. We should be doing something about this.

721 Seanad Éireann The other matter I wish to raise is the appointment of Ms Fionnuala Sheehan to the board of RTE. The Oireachtas Committee on Transport and Communications had a secret meeting in July, from which the press and the public were excluded, where it put together a secret working committee to select a nomination. This committee is dominated and directed by Fine Gael. The Labour Party plays a role, but it has been pretty silent on this issue. Ms Sheehan was the chairperson and director of MEAS, the lobby for the drinks industry which is supposed to encourage responsible drinking. MEAS advertises on television with advertisements showing people having an orgy of booze and just a little note in the corner saying “Do drink sensibly” - total hypocritical rubbish.

MEAS is not so keen on secrecy in regard to itself. Even before the passage of this re- vived-----

09/10/2014D00400An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

09/10/2014D00500Senator David Norris: No, I do not, nor must I have one.

09/10/2014D00600An Cathaoirleach: I call Senator Gilroy.

09/10/2014D00700Senator David Norris: Sorry, a Chathaoirligh; I would like to finish making my point. I do not have to have a question. That is not part of the rules of this House.

09/10/2014D00800An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is out of time.

09/10/2014D00900Senator Paul Coghlan: He is engaging in argument and being argumentative.

09/10/2014D01000Senator David Norris: I wish to finish the point I was making. Ms Sheehan says she learned yesterday that the secretary of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, recently sent a report-----

09/10/2014D01100An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is stepping on very dangerous ground here.

09/10/2014D01200Senator David Norris: She learned about it and sent a note to sabotage it, as chairman of MEAS. I hope the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy White, has the guts to reject her. She is a totally inappropriate person to be on the board of a company that involves itself in advertising drink.

09/10/2014D01300An Cathaoirleach: That is most unfair to the candidate for that position. The Senator is completely out of order in that regard.

09/10/2014D01400Senator Mark Daly: I thank colleagues in the other House and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs for their agreement on the legislation that went through the Dáil yesterday in regard to banning smoking in cars where children are present. This important legislation shows what can be done when all sides work together, when legislators legislate and when bureaucrats do not prevent us from doing our work.

I also welcome the new US ambassador to Ireland, who has presented his credentials to President Michael D. Higgins. I had the pleasure of meeting Ambassador O’Malley in St. Louis and I believe he will do an excellent job in the time available to him, not only here but in the context of the ongoing peace process.

I must also give credit to our impending Senator, Mr. John McNulty. I should praise him, because he has more interest in our heritage than we might be aware of. He made the journey 722 9 October 2014 from Donegal through Leitrim, to Sligo, to Lissadell House, where, I understand, he met the Taoiseach. Apparently-----

09/10/2014D01500Senator Paul Coghlan: The Senator’s information is out of-----

09/10/2014D01600An Cathaoirleach: We are on the Order of Business. Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

09/10/2014D01700Senator Mark Daly: Will the Leader clarify whether the phrase “The job is as good as yours” was used? To make such a journey and to claim that he never met him is quite extraor- dinary.

09/10/2014D01800An Cathaoirleach: Has the Senator a question for the Leader?

09/10/2014D01900Senator Mark Daly: I thank the Cathaoirleach for his indulgence.

Members have often criticised Israel here and have been lambasted as being anti-Israel and anti-Jewish. That is not the situation. Just because people criticise a country does not mean they are against it. They might rather be in favour of a peace process in Palestine. Just because Members might criticise the United States, that does not mean they are against the United States.

09/10/2014D02000An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is way over time.

09/10/2014D02100Senator Mark Daly: Just because a person might question whether an ambassador was aware that he had been invited to a fund-raiser by a political party-----

09/10/2014D02200An Cathaoirleach: We dealt with that issue yesterday. The Senator is completely out of order. I ruled on the issue yesterday. Please resume your seat.

09/10/2014D02300Senator Mark Daly: -----it does not mean Members have the right to cast aspersions on anyone’s character. I ask the Cathaoirleach to look at the record of what was said yesterday and the comments made by Members here who themselves have castigated the British on many occasions. All I ask of our colleagues across the water-----

09/10/2014E00200Senator Terry Brennan: Would you cop yourself on?

09/10/2014E00300Senator Mark Daly: -----is to release the files on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings.

09/10/2014E00400An Cathaoirleach: Will the Senator resume his seat? He is completely out of order.

09/10/2014E00500Senator Terry Brennan: He should listen to the Cathaoirleach.

09/10/2014E00600Senator Mark Daly: Will Senator Paul Coghlan, who seems to be a great friend of the British ambassador, ask him to do so?

09/10/2014E00700An Cathaoirleach: Resume your seat.

09/10/2014E00800Senator Terry Brennan: I call for an urgent review of our existing planning laws and building regulations for one-off houses. It is over 40 years since our planning regulations were reviewed, and it is urgent at this stage. We need a planning regulator to ensure local authorities implement and keep in line with national planning policy. Will the Deputy Leader invite the Minister of State with responsibility for housing, Deputy Paudie Coffey, to the House for an urgent debate on this matter next week? We need to be informed and have a discussion on the 723 Seanad Éireann Government’s Construction 2020 policy, which is good news for the construction industry and those in need of housing. Local authorities have draft development plans ready for public consultation. Accordingly, a debate on planning regulations and policy would be timely next week.

09/10/2014E00900Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I support Senator Brennan’s call for a review of our planning regulations. It is over 40 years since they were last addressed and he has raised some important issues.

I concur with Senator Whelan on nuclear energy and it does warrant a debate in the House. We are located close to the island of Britain and yesterday’s decision there on a proposed nuclear power plant has major implications for all of us living so close to that proposed site.

Last Saturday marked the first anniversary of the referendum on the Seanad, when the people rejected the proposal by the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, and some members of his Government that this House should be abolished. In rejecting his proposal, the people accepted that this House was necessary but in need of reform. I agree with Senator Norris that tinkering around with the election of university Senators is not in itself Seanad reform. We owe it to the people who voted in the referendum to maintain this House to urgently address reform of the Seanad.

I do, however, take exception to Senator Norris’s views on the Seanad by-election, votes for which will be counted tomorrow. As the Constitution stands, that by-election is being conducted properly. It is not a rotten borough. I would like Senator Norris to withdraw that comment.

09/10/2014E01000Senator David Norris: I will not.

09/10/2014E01100An Cathaoirleach: That was a political charge, Senator Wilson.

09/10/2014E01200Senator Paul Coghlan: Senator Norris was as eloquent as ever.

09/10/2014E01300Senator Diarmuid Wilson: It is a political charge that should be withdrawn. Under our Constitution, the by-election is being properly conducted.

09/10/2014E01400Senator David Norris: Yes, in a rotten borough.

09/10/2014E01500Senator Diarmuid Wilson: While I agree the borough should be reformed, it is as it is. Whoever is elected will have been democratically elected to this House and, hopefully, will serve the full remaining term.

I agree with Senator Quinn on the provision of defibrillators. HIQA carried out a review and suggested it would cost up to €15 million to have defibrillators located in Government buildings across the country. It claimed it would not be worth the money for the lives such a move would save. If it saves only one life, it is well worth it. We should keep pursuing this particular issue.

09/10/2014E01600Senator David Norris: Hear, hear.

09/10/2014E01700Senator Susan O’Keeffe: Several weeks ago, I raised the serious difficulties relating to the special investigations unit, SIU, in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, and called for the Minister to attend the House to discuss them. At the time I described it as a private hit squad, and I reiterate that.

In the meantime, I am delighted the Minister has disbanded the SIU and put in place a re- structured investigations unit which will have, I trust, new personnel and a new way of doing 724 9 October 2014 business. Over the years with the SIU, there was bullying both in and outside the Department, planting of evidence and destruction of people’s reputations and livelihoods willy-nilly with no accountability whatsoever. While I welcome the establishment of a new investigation division, there remain serious unanswered questions about the SIU’s past conduct and what will happen to those with outstanding court cases who believe they were seriously wronged by members of the Department. I do not make these statements lightly. I believe there is a moment for the Minister to explain why he has disbanded the SIU, what he hopes to gain from the new investigations division and how those people affected by the SIU’s behaviour over the past long number of years will be helped. There is also a question about the legal costs associated with the many cases that have been brought against the Department via the SIU. Who will pay these costs, which run to hundreds of thousands of euro? Is it the Department or some other agency?

09/10/2014E01800Senator Rónán Mullen: I second my colleague Senator Crown’s proposed amendment to the Order of Business.

09/10/2014E01900An Cathaoirleach: Senator Crown has not spoken yet.

09/10/2014E02000Senator David Norris: Senator Mullen has the gift of prophecy.

09/10/2014E02100Senator Rónán Mullen: I apologise. I want to second the amendment my colleague is about to propose.

09/10/2014E02200Senator John Crown: I wish to verify that I am proposing an amendment.

09/10/2014E02300An Cathaoirleach: No amendment has been proposed yet, and one cannot second something that has not been proposed.

09/10/2014E02400Senator Rónán Mullen: I hope the Cathaoirleach stopped the clock. I look forward to hearing another colleague second Senator Crown’s proposed amendment to the Order of Busi- ness in due course.

I propose that we amend the Order of Business to bring the Taoiseach to the House to discuss the long-overdue political reform of the Seanad.

09/10/2014E02500An Cathaoirleach: Is the Senator proposing an amendment to the Order of Business?

09/10/2014E02600Senator Rónán Mullen: Yes. I am proposing an amendment which Senator Crown will shortly second. If there is one thing to be learned from the McNulty affair, it is the contempt that the Taoiseach and the Government have for the Seanad, notwithstanding the decision of the people. To continue to treat the Seanad as a political pawn, as it has in this affair, blatantly disregards the clear message and consensus that came from the electorate, which was that the Seanad was to be retained as our second Chamber and its functions fully respected as well as developed.

Will the Deputy Leader organise a debate in due course about the forthcoming Second In- ternational Conference on Nutrition, which will take place in Rome from 19 November to 21 November? It may be a matter for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, but it is also one for the Department of Health. Who will represent Ireland at this conference? Up to 167 million children under the age of five are chronically undernourished. Ireland, with its great agricultural tradition and the contribution of organisations such as Gorta and Self Help Africa, has particular points to make and a great role to play in addressing the problem of world hunger, particularly by promoting excellence and improvement in agriculture. It would be ap- 725 Seanad Éireann propriate that we would have a debate on that. Finally, I remind colleagues of the invitation sent to them about Julia Holcomb’s address today in LH200 about her tragic story involving a late-term abortion.

09/10/2014F00200An Cathaoirleach: Could the Senator clarify the amendment he has proposed to the Order of Business?

09/10/2014F00300Senator Rónán Mullen: I propose that we amend the Order of Business and that the Tao- iseach come to this House today to address the subject of the long-awaited, long-promised and much-reneged on promise of political reform.

09/10/2014F00400Senator John Crown: I second Senator Mullen’s very intelligent and perceptive amendment. I will speak in defence of seconding it. For people of my generation - those who thank- fully grew up at a physical distance of 100 miles from but still very much politically in the shad- ow of the Northern Ireland conflict - those folks who espoused reconciliation and compromise are unsung heroes who were the true peacemakers. They were the people who were actually advocating peace without ever having advocated war in the first place. One of the leaders of that movement was the late Dr. Garret FitzGerald. For many people of my generation who were not politically involved but just looking at it from the outside, he was a person who embodied many of the best impulses we should see in Irish politics and somebody who tried to move past his own incredibly heavy familial Civil War burden to try to take a more all-encompassing view of what we needed to do to fix our country. Where others were preaching internecine warfare, he preached reconciliation. Where others were preaching one or other version of the sectarian head count they thought should determine the shape of the political structures on or in different parts of the island of Ireland, he tried to work out ways of getting compromises between those who saw those.

Here we are four leaders later. The occupant of the same position Dr. FitzGerald held is our Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny. I mean no offence to any of my colleagues in any other party because I think all of the parties have moved on enormously in the past several years but it is a subject of profound sadness to me to think that his party is locked in a head-and-neck poll with people led by those who were preaching a very different vision ten, 20, 30 and 40 years ago. The Taoiseach bears a very particular responsibility for the credibility of Irish constitutional politics and I must say that he has let it down over the past several weeks by his failure to deal with several critical issues relating to the political reform he promised. It still sticks completely in my craw that we have visit after visit after visit to this House by Ministers who when asked a direct question either do not answer or are economical with the truth. It is very hard for us to criticise others for dishonesty about their history when we cannot look our own Taoiseach in the eye and ask him to be honest about more recent history. For that reason and in the context of the failure to deliver Seanad reform and meaningful political reform, I second Senator Mul- len’s amendment.

09/10/2014F00500An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has already seconded it. Before I call Senator MacSharry, I am sure Members of the House would like to join me in welcoming to the Visitors Gallery the Colombian ambassador to Ireland, H.E. Mr. Néstor Osorio. He is very welcome.

09/10/2014F00600Senator Marc MacSharry: Could the Acting Leader make arrangements for the appropriate Minister who I presume is the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- ment to come to the House and answer some questions about Irish Water in particular? On this occasion, I am not talking specifically about the charges although they are areas we all want to 726 9 October 2014 discuss as usual. We might ask the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Govern- ment to come to the House so that we could discuss with him the schedule of capital projects that would have been planned by the various local authorities in the context of their water and wastewater treatment and the fact that given that responsibility for all of these plans comes under the remit of Irish Water, there is very real concern and a good bit of anecdotal evidence to suggest that projects that were expected to begin in the short term are now very much on the long finger because of the very significant cost base that Irish Water runs on.

In Sligo what is referred colloquially as the bundle scheme relates to villages I am sure people are aware of - Grange in north county Sligo, Strandhill, which is west of Sligo town and Tubbercurry, which is south of Sligo town and is the country’s second largest town. These villages have all been waiting for some considerable period for a new sewerage treatment plan. The previous Government made available a 90% subvention for those programmes to go ahead. They have yet to go ahead. Sligo County Council needs them to go ahead. We are in a position to move on them but it is now the case that Irish Water is long fingering them. The populations of these villages throughout the country face the difficulty of having to pay for water in the first instance. We saw how in the context of the Roscommon-Leitrim by-election, the Government has postponed costs, and rightly so, for the people of Roscommon because they have dirty water. We have substandard sewerage treatment facilities in Grange in north county Sligo, Strandhill west of Sligo town and Tubbercurry in south County Sligo. Now that they are paying for everything, people are entitled to know when these works will be carried out. They were ready to go pre-Irish Water. Now that we have Irish Water, the matter seems to be pushed very far down the list and I would like some clarification on that. I know that a specific case might be more appropriate to Adjournment Matters but I know that there are examples of this in every local authority area and the Minister ought to give us an indication as to who is in charge, what the timetable for events that were planned is and when people can expect work and improve- ments on the ground.

09/10/2014F00700Senator Jim Walsh: I agree with Senator MacSharry. I called yesterday for a debate on Uisce Éireann. My major concern is for the consumers to get the best deal possible and they will not get that from a public service monopoly which has already started in a way that certainly does not apply cost-effectiveness across the board and which is merely another quango. This has been exposed in this House by the Minister who was involved in setting it up.

It also worries me that people who are campaigning against water charges and who know they are going to continue are now out of the other side of their mouths articulating and promoting a policy that it should be privatised or part privatised. This is the position of Sinn Féin. The double speak is absolutely alarming - that people would go forward and campaign on one basis and then look to have it privatised so they can distance themselves from the charges. If there is one thing-----

09/10/2014F00800An Cathaoirleach: Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

09/10/2014F00900Senator Jim Walsh: I am asking the Leader for a debate on this because if there is one thing worse than a public monopoly, it is a private monopoly. The issue should be debated fully and some of the pseudo-arguments being put out should be analysed, challenged and disposed of.

I also want to raise the issue that was raised briefly yesterday by one of my colleagues, namely, the issue of the Central Bank making decisions with regard to controlling lending to 727 Seanad Éireann people who seek to provide a house from their own resources. Obviously, many of us here who did that throughout our lifetimes could not have done it without access to credit. I do not deny that prudence is needed in the area but I feel that the Central Bank has shown itself to be disconnected from promoting a system where people of reasonable and average means will be able to aspire to purchasing a house for themselves. Many people would be put outside it by this particular approach. I think we need a full debate here with the Minister involved during the period during which the Central Bank is involved in consultation. It is easy for people in the Central Bank, who are on high salaries and have never worked anywhere other than the public service, to be making decisions such as this. They have never had to meet the challenges that many working people out there, particularly in the private sector, have had to meet.

09/10/2014F01000Senator Ivana Bacik: I begin by agreeing with Senator Darragh O’Brien’s comments on the quorum.

09/10/2014F01100Senator Darragh O’Brien: That is a good way to end the week.

09/10/2014G00100Senator Ivana Bacik: Senator Paul Coghlan also supported him in his comments. It is un- acceptable that we would be waiting ten minutes, or 11 minutes this morning, to start the business of the House because not enough Senators are present at the start of the business. When the bell rings, Senators should be coming to the Chamber for the Order of Business - there is no doubt about that.

Senator Cummins did bring proposals to the CPP to try to change the start time of the Order of Business to reflect the Dáil start time of 12 noon. This would facilitate Members who are often engaged in committee business, which is scheduled around the Dáil sittings. Those changes were agreed in principle at the CPP but a further CPP meeting needs to take place to agree to implement the change. That may facilitate attendance by more Members. I agree with Senator O’Brien that it is up to all group leaders or Whips to raise this with our own groups in order to ensure Members are in the House in a timely manner. We have a rota in operation in our own group but it is still difficult to get Members to come at 10.30 a.m., or at 2.30 p.m. on a Tuesday.

Senator O’Brien also asked about home help gratuities and the issue of the payment of gratuities owed. If he could e-mail me the details, I will be happy to write directly to the Minister. I know the Senator has written to the new Minister about this issue and has had no response. The Minister, Deputy Varadkar, is in the House the week after next on the Health (Miscella- neous Provisions) Bill but he is also due in the House on 4 November for a general debate on health care. That is probably the more appropriate date to raise the matter with him.

The Senator also raised the issue of Fampyra, the drug for MS patients, which he has raised on a number of previous occasions. I believe all of us would agree it is a huge concern that a drug which appears to have greatly improved quality of life for many people is now on hold, effectively. I am told the HSE received a revised application from Biogen Idec for the drug on Friday, 25 July, and that application is currently being assessed in line with agreed procedures. Although I am aware Senator O’Brien has been given that answer before, as of 1 October, that is the most up-to-date information I have. Again, if the Senator can send me the details, I will certainly write to the Minister. It is an issue that can be raised with him on 4 November if it has not already been raised. Senator Conway also raised this matter on the Adjournment earlier this week.

Senator Paul Coghlan welcomed the boost for social housing being provided by investment

728 9 October 2014 from the European Investment Bank. I believe all of us would agree that is hugely welcome given the housing crisis at present. As Senator Coghlan noted, this is the first time the bank will invest in a programme like this in Ireland, so it is hugely significant and should, when it comes on stream, help to ease the housing crisis .

Senator Zappone called for a debate on the new model of ministerial appointments announced by the Minister, Deputy Howlin, earlier this week, which has received Cabinet approval. I understand the Minister, Deputy Howlin, is going to provide a more detailed proposal in a memorandum to Government next month. We might usefully have him in this House after that on public reforms generally. In fact, I had asked on this issue myself and I know the Leader’s office had already, following my request, sought a debate with the Minister, Deputy Howlin, on a revised system of appointments. I am told we hope to secure that debate for November so all the questions can be answered then.

I thank Senator Zappone for putting on record various points about remuneration. I understand very many State boards have no remuneration at all for membership and many people serve on State boards in an entirely voluntary capacity, which also needs to be acknowledged. Of course, semi-States are in a different position. It is a good idea to try to lay out all of that in detail. Senator Zappone also asked about Committee Stage of the Seanad reform Bill and I can certainly make inquiries as to when that is likely to come before us.

I believe we all agree with Senator Barrett that stress tests on the Irish banks should be brought to a speedy conclusion. Senator Barrett also reminded us about the issue of infill in Dublin Bay. We could have a debate on that at some point or it could be tabled as a matter on the Adjournment.

Senator Hayden welcomed the announcement of the European Investment Bank funding. She noted the housing crisis and the increase in waiting lists, particularly in Dublin city council areas, and that the ESRI and the Nevin Institute have today asked for greater investment in social housing. I know Senator Hayden has been seeking a debate on this for some time. She has specifically asked for a debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, on the private rental sector. I will certainly seek that debate and I suggest the Senator might also communicate directly with the Ministers, Deputies Howlin and Noonan, on her proposals for changes in the budget on measures to reduce homelessness through, for example, controlling rent increases and examining housing supplement payments.

Senator Quinn raised a very interesting and creative idea about the use of the postal service to ensure greater supports for elderly people living alone, and I believe we would all like to hear more about that. He also raised the issue of defibrillators and the life-saving help they have provided.

Senator Mullins welcomed the investment by the European Investment Bank. He also asked for a debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, on community health care organisations and the restructuring of the health care. The Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, is in the House on 12 November to deal with another aspect of her brief, which is suicide and mental health funding. We can ask her to come in on another date to deal with the issue of community health care reorganisations.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh called for a debate on the nursing profession in light of the very worrying recent increase of €50 in the fee, which has been raised with us by nurses and nursing

729 Seanad Éireann students. I would be very happy to try to facilitate that debate. It might be part of a broader debate or, if we cannot get a specific debate on it, it is something the Senator can raise with the Minister of State, Deputy Varadkar, when he is in the House on 4 November.

As we know, there have been huge changes to the nursing profession in terms of the profes- sionalisation of nursing. We have an excellent school of nursing in Trinity College, if I can give a small plug to that-----

09/10/2014G00200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: With respect to the nurses, they deserve a stand-alone debate.

09/10/2014G00300Senator Ivana Bacik: I will certainly seek that but, as we are unlikely to get it before 4 November, the Senator could also raise it on that date with the Minister, Deputy Varadkar.

Senator Whelan raised the issue of wind energy, which he has raised in this House before. He noted the game-changer of yesterday’s decision on the nuclear plant proposed for Somerset in England. I would agree with him that has huge implications for Ireland and I am happy to seek a debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Alex White, broadly on energy and in that context.

Senator Norris called for a full debate on Seanad reform and referred to a particular appointment. I do not intend to get into any discussion on the merits or otherwise of any particular individual. However, I thank Senator Whelan for explaining to me that expressions of interest were sought for appointments to the board of RTE and others, the communications committee scrutinised these, as has been reported, and then, having scrutinised CVs at length, the committee made recommendations to the Minister for him to consider. He has until February 2015 to affirm those appointments or do otherwise. I stress that no appointment has been made.

09/10/2014G00400Senator David Norris: It is all being done in secret.

09/10/2014G00500Senator Ivana Bacik: It is important that we do not abuse parliamentary privilege by cast- ing aspersions.

Senator Daly welcomed the smoking in cars legislation. He also welcomed the new US ambassador and I am sure we would all join in that welcome. The Senator also referred to quite a number of other issues, including a meeting in Lissadell House - I know nothing about that - and Israel and the Middle East. I do not think he asked for any debate and I am not sure if any question was asked in the course of his contribution.

Senator Brennan referred to the planning regulations and asked for a debate with the Minis- ter of State, Deputy Coffey. I know the Minister of State has committed to coming to the House for a debate on planning and the Construction 2020 strategy, which is to take place after the budget. We will follow up on that.

Senator Wilson called for a debate on Seanad reform. Again, I am not sure if the Senator had a question.

09/10/2014G00600Senator Diarmuid Wilson: I asked when it will take place.

09/10/2014G00700Senator Ivana Bacik: As I said, I will look for a debate on Seanad reform as quite a number of Senators have sought one.

730 9 October 2014

09/10/2014G00800Senator Darragh O’Brien: It is much needed and much promised.

09/10/2014G00900Senator Ivana Bacik: I will seek an answer as to when Committee Stage of the Seanad reform Bill is taking place, which was the specific question Senator Zappone asked.

09/10/2014G01000Senator Darragh O’Brien: The Taoiseach was very good to meet us once in a year about Seanad reform.

09/10/2014G01100Senator Ivana Bacik: Senator O’Keeffe raised very specific questions in regard to the special investigations unit in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. She welcomed that it had been disbanded but said that questions remain. Again, that could either be raised directly with the Minister or as a matter on the Adjournment. We can seek to have the Minister, Deputy Coveney, to the House for a debate on the issue, if that is the more appropriate channel for asking those questions.

Senator Mullen proposed an amendment to the Order of Business to ask the Taoiseach to come to the House. I cannot accede to that today. As I said, I will seek to find out when we will have Committee Stage of the Seanad Reform Bill that was put forward by Senators Zappone and Quinn in this House. That is the specific question many people had focused on in terms of Seanad reform. It has been over a year since the referendum result, and it was Senator Zappone who noted that anniversary on 3 October. It would certainly be good to hear what has happened in the interim and what is proposed. I would be very happy to push for a debate on Seanad reform broadly but, in particular, to find out when we will have Committee Stage of the Bill.

Senator Mullen asked a specific question about representation from Ireland at a world nutrition conference. That request would best be taken up directly with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

Senator John Crown seconded Senator Rónán Mullen’s motion and referred more generally to Seanad and political reform. As I said, we have sought for the Minister for Public, Expen- diture and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, to come to the House for a general debate on the matter.

Senator Marc MacSharry commented on Irish Water. We are going to try to arrange a debate with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, on it this term. The Senator also raised particular issues relating to the situation in Sligo and dates of works taking place. That would best be the subject of a direct communication with the Minister or a matter on the Adjournment, given that there are specific issues surrounding specific works.

Senator Jim Walsh also raised the issue of Irish Water and expressed the hope water would stay in public hands. The Taoiseach has confirmed this week that it will remain in public hands. The Senator also called for a debate on the proposed Central Bank controls on lending. We can certainly seek such a debate. Since it is proposed the controls will not take effect until January, there is plenty of time to seek that debate.

09/10/2014H00200An Cathaoirleach: Senator Rónán Mullen has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business: “That a debate with the Taoiseach on his proposals for political reform be taken today.” Is the amendment being pressed?

09/10/2014H00300Senator Rónán Mullen: Yes.

731 Seanad Éireann Amendment put:

The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 19. Tá Níl Barrett, Sean D. Bacik, Ivana. Byrne, Thomas. Brennan, Terry. Crown, John. Burke, Colm. Daly, Mark. Coghlan, Eamonn. MacSharry, Marc. Coghlan, Paul. Mullen, Rónán. Conway, Martin. Norris, David. D’Arcy, Jim. Ó Clochartaigh, Trevor. Gilroy, John. Ó Domhnaill, Brian. Hayden, Aideen. O’Brien, Darragh. Henry, Imelda. Power, Averil. Moloney, Marie. Quinn, Feargal. Mullins, Michael. Walsh, Jim. Naughton, Hildegarde. White, Mary M. Noone, Catherine. Wilson, Diarmuid. O’Keeffe, Susan. Zappone, Katherine. O’Neill, Pat. Sheahan, Tom. van Turnhout, Jillian. Whelan, John.

Tellers: Tá, Senators John Crown and Rónán Mullen; Níl, Senators Paul Coghlan and Ai- deen Hayden.

Amendment declared lost.

Question, “That the Order of Business be agreed to”, put and declared carried.

09/10/2014J00100Forestry Bill 2013: Committee Stage

09/10/2014J00200Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Tom Hayes, to the House.

Section 1 agreed to.

SECTION 2

732 9 October 2014

09/10/2014J00500Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 4 and 38 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

09/10/2014J00600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 1:

In page 6, line 19, to delete “0.1 hectare” and substitute “0.5 hectares and five metres in height”.

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, agus cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit.

In general, we welcome the Bill and feel it is far overdue. However, I wish to raise a number of technical matters that I would like to tease out with the Minister of State. The first arises on page 6, line 19, concerning the area of land which would be designated as a forest. The minimum area indicated is 0.1 hectares. Some people would have back gardens of that size, so I feel it is quite restrictive for anyone living in rural Ireland. It is a very limited definition of what a forest would be. I suggest therefore that the figure should be increased to 0.5 hectares and five metres in height. That would exclude any kind of garden of a reasonable size. I have therefore moved this amendment to try to improve the piece of legislation before us.

09/10/2014J00700Senator Sean D. Barrett: I welcome the Minister of State. This an important debate and we had a good discussion on Second Stage also. The amendments I have tabled are entirely in the spirit of the last debate. We can see the role of trees in its full context, including the environment and climate change. We may all be tree-huggers by the time we emerge from this debate. I hope so.

An area of 0.1 hectares is 100 square metres. Many trees are of great value to the landscape for noise abatement and climate change, which would not be covered by the Bill. My amendment No. 2 therefore seeks to extend the scope. One hundred square metres is a very high threshold, but we need to protect trees that grow in smaller clusters up and down the country as part of a general appreciation of the role that trees have.

I noticed that in the National Development Plan 2007-2013, 19 lines were devoted to forestry in a 300-page document. We are attempting to redress that today by appreciating how important trees and forests are in the Irish context.

12 o’clock

My amendment No. 2 seeks to extend the definition of “woodland” to appreciate the valuable role that trees perform in smaller plantations from an economic, environmental and tourism point of view. If we define plantations as only 0.1 of a hectare we might miss some of the most valuable trees in the country.

09/10/2014K00200Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Tom Hayes): Before I speak on the amendments, I want to draw to the attention of the House to the fact that today is Tree Day, organised by the Tree Council of Ireland. It is appropriate that we are discussing the Forestry Bill. We should all mark this day in our own way. With the co-operation of the Department of Education and Skills, a thousand trees have been sent to various schools. Tomorrow I will visit my local school in County Tipperary and plant a tree. If anybody has a free hour tomorrow he or she should plant a tree in their own area. One thing I have learned about forestry is that people in the Oireachtas have a great interest in the environment, and trees are part of the environment. I invite everybody tomorrow, whether in his or her

733 Seanad Éireann own back garden or in a school, to plant a tree to mark the occasion and, perhaps, to bring it to the attention of younger people in the environs where one lives. I thought I would take the liberty of making Senators and everybody else aware of National Tree Day.

Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 4 and 38 are being taken together. In regard to amendment No. 1, for international and national reporting requirements, Ireland has defined that a forest area is at least 0.1 hectares, as described in the Bill. We are committed to using the same forest definition for reporting to the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change. Changing the definition would mean that all carbon stocks previously reported to the UN would have to be revised, as well as estimates provided to the EU in relation to projected levels of carbon sink activity. The 0.1 hectare threshold is also the minimum area for which consent is required for all proposed afforestation projects, as described in Ireland’s European Communities (Forest Consent and Assessment) Regulations 2010.

The area definition should also take into account that this Bill describes trees as being either inside or outside a forest. If the area definition is raised, this would mean that all areas below 0.5 hectares could be removed without a licence and without a requirement to replant. From Ireland’s perspective, with historically low levels of forest cover, it is important to record as many forests as possible. Reducing the threshold would facilitate deforestation and the potential loss of biodiversity. In many cases these small woods interlink and adjoin the massive network of hedgerows in Ireland and are an integral part of our landscape. My Department has provided grant aid since the early 1990s for broadleaf woodlands at the threshold of 0.1 ha. In addition, many important areas of woodland along rivers and valleys are small in size and any upward movement in the threshold could result in these woodlands being deforested with no replanting.

The alternative proposal as outlined in amendment No. 2 would have the effect of lowering the definition of forest to include all trees found in groups below 0.1 hectares and would include the majority of individual trees. From a regulatory and implementation point of view, it is not practical to regulate the felling of every tree in the countryside. Landowners must be allowed to manage individual trees on their holdings in accordance with good agricultural practice based on the exemptions outlined in the Bill.

With regard to amendments Nos. 4 and 38, the terms “woodland” and “forest” are inter- changeable and are used to describe groups of trees growing in close proximity. While there are no hard and fast rules, the word “forest” is used internationally to describe trees which are either broadleaf and or coniferous in character. I have, therefore, decided to stay with the terminology “forest” as it is commonly used within the national and international context. The terminology “woodland” is generally used in Ireland and Britain to describe broadleaf woodland. This Forestry Bill is about groups of trees which include broadleaf and conifer species. I therefore do not accept these amendments.

Amendment put and declared lost.

09/10/2014K00400Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 2:

In page 7, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:

“ “woodland” means land under trees under 0.1 hectare with a tree crown cover of more than 20 per cent of the total area, or the potential to achieve this cover at maturity.”.

734 9 October 2014 I thank the Minister of State for his response. I welcome the news about Tree Day. It is also the centenary of Avondale, which I think was founded in 1904 when we first got involved in forestry education, so trees have been important for a very long time. In regard to my amendment, what the Minister of State has said encompasses the spirit of the amendment. The preface states that the Bill seeks to promote forestry in a manner that maximises the economic, environmental and social value of forests, which includes woodlands, within the principles of sustainable forest management, and to confer particular powers on the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We want to maximise the value of this asset. That was the purpose of the amendments. I welcome the Minister of State’s explanation and I will not press the amendment. By the time we got to amendment No. 38 we were pretty well at idem that we see the value of the smaller plantations and the broadleaf plantations. I could come back to what trees should be exempted in later amendments, but that is the spirit I share and, therefore, I will not move those amendments.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 2 agreed to.

Sections 3 and 4 agreed to.

SECTION 5

09/10/2014K00900Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 3:

In page 8, line 6, after “afforestation” to insert “and timber production”.

This section deals with the general functions of the Minister in respect of the Bill, one of which is to promote afforestation. We want to include also “and timber production”, on foot of a number of representations and information sent to us by various organisations involved in the area which felt it was important to recognise the importance of the industry in Ireland and that they needed due recognition in the Bill and in the general functions of the Minister. The reason we tabled the amendment was to support the commercial side of the wood-felling industry.

09/10/2014K01000Deputy Tom Hayes: I have already introduced an amendment on Committee Stage in the Dáil at section 5(l) which reads “to promote the production and use of timber”. I believe, therefore, that what is being sought by this amendment has already been adequately addressed within the Bill.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Amendment No. 4 not moved.

09/10/2014L00100Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 5:

In page 9, between lines 1 and 2, to insert the following:

“(3) The Minister has a duty to provide information to ensure the public and other authorities are regularly informed on the role and condition of forests as well as on all forestry activities.

(4) The Minister has a duty to ensure that all Irish citizens and environmental NGOs are entitled to participate in forestry planning and management at local and national level, ranging from public enquiries to environmental assessments and 735 Seanad Éireann monitoring.”.

This section refers to the specific functions of the Minister. The amendment was tabled following representations by groups involved in conservation and calls for openness and transparency in the work of the Government and all that is done. The amendment does not seek anything untoward. The Department has the information but we want it made public. On every day of the week in the Seanad we have seen Senators call for information on different issues around Government. In fact, all sides have called for transparency and openness on decision- making, etc. We feel that the Minister in this situation should be asked to regularly inform us about what is going on and to provide all possible information on this area.

09/10/2014L00200Deputy Tom Hayes: There is already legislation in place which entitles citizens to information on forestry and to participate in forestry planning.

I remind the Senators that my Department, like all other Departments, is a public body for the purposes of the access to information on the environment regulations, which allows members of the public to request environmental information held by public authorities and which place an obligation on public authorities to be proactive in disseminating environmental information to the public.

Under the Forest Consent and Assessment Regulations 2010, my Department is already required to consult with stakeholders and the general public when deciding whether to grant consent for afforestation and forest road projects. My Department is also an authority for the purposes of the European Communities (Environmental Assessment of Certain Plans and Programmes) Regulations, which require the Department to carry out strategic environmental assessment of any proposed programme for forestry and to consult widely, and facilitate public participation, during that process. In fact, a strategic environmental assessment of the new forestry programme 2014-2020 is currently nearing completion. The SEA process includes consultation with all stakeholders, including environmental NGOs.

My Department already publishes and disseminates a wide range of information on forestry, including statistical information and information on the condition of Ireland’s forests. Senators may recall that only last December I announced the publication of the main findings of Ireland’s second national forest inventory. This information, along with more detailed information gen- erated by the inventory is available at all times on the Department’s website. Furthermore, section 13(1) of the Bill provides the Minister with the power to collect and disseminate information and statistics on forests, forestry and forestry-based industry. I, therefore, do not propose to accept the amendment.

09/10/2014L00300Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I appreciate and take on board what the Minister has said. We have an opportunity here to copperfasten the principle of what was said about the legislation. I know from the groups that have contacted us that they feel the provision needs to be bolstered in the legislation. The other legislation can be changed or amended at another time.

Specifically in regard to forestry management and planning, it was felt that the NGOs should have their role copperfastened in the legislation and its basis included in the Bill. Therefore, I will press my amendment.

09/10/2014L00400Deputy Tom Hayes: To clarify, there is access to all of that information. If I thought for a second there was any non-availability of that information I would put in the amendment but the information exists. Any time I have challenged the Department it has always admitted that 736 9 October 2014 the information exists. If I accepted the amendment it would only be for the sake of doing so. The information already exists. We want to be open. The Forest Service and the Department are very open, at all times, to giving out that kind of information. I want to send a clear signal to all of the people concerned that the information is readily available.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Question proposed: “That section 5 stand part of the Bill.”

09/10/2014L00700Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I welcome the Minister of State back again.

I shall talk generally about the section. It confers the current responsibilities on the Minister and reinforces them. During the Second Stage debate we spoke about some of those responsibilities and the need to promote afforestation, forestry and timber production.

Let us look at some of the Minister’s functions. They are to promote knowledge and aware- ness of forestry; to promote educational training in forestry and related matters; and to promote research on forestry and related matters. These are all very important functions which will, effectively, determine the future outcome of the forestry resource, both private and public. Are there plans to develop forestry? Is the Department looking at ways to do so? Does the Minister anticipate it will be developed down the road? Have we a vision of where we want Coillte and the forestry complement to be in 20 years time? There are 2030 objectives for afforestation cover in the country. What are the other objectives? How many schoolchildren do we want to see in forestry over the next ten years? Do we want to see an increase? Do we want to see additional walking routes developed in forests? Do we want our forestry resource to play an important and integral role in combatting obesity?

Coillte is the largest owner of land in the country and, therefore, has a key role to play. It is a pivotal semi-State organisation. I would like to hear the Minister of State’s thoughts on the issue. I am not pressing him on it today. We must consider what must happen in five, ten and 15 years time and set the standard now. Apart from the standard of planting, we must look at other standards and decide how best to use the resource and ensure everybody can share in it.

09/10/2014L00800Deputy Tom Hayes: It is no harm to take the opportunity to echo a lot of what I said in my Second Stage contribution here. It is always very important to lay out our vision for the future. There is great potential for forestry in Ireland and we need to mark out a roadmap.

When the Government came to power it decided to see whether Coillte needed to be sold or retained as a national asset. That was a brave decision and was welcomed by everybody across the political divide. In general, the public at large welcomed the fact that Coillte would stay in State ownership and that the vast resource would be used for the benefit of people. It was important to link what Coillte has with tourism, the environment, schools and to get people to understand the industry more.

I have travelled up and down the country and had an opportunity to visit a huge number of Coillte and private sites. Let me address the Coillte sites. I realised that there is an opportunity for tourism in every parish and county, particularly along the western coast and part of the eastern coast. Some counties have a lot of forestry and there is also great potential in terms of walkways. We all know that tourists want to come here to enjoy walks in the fresh air so we should have more organised walks on Coillte lands. There are great opportunities to develop this tourism sector. 737 Seanad Éireann Last Tuesday I was in Galway and met the acting chief executive of Coillte. We spoke at length about the potential of linking Coillte with tourism projects and I found the organisation was very much on board with the idea. That is a roadmap of where Coillte is going. I could talk about this issue for hours because it is such a fantastic forestry project. The forestry programme that is currently under discussion is out there for public consultation, and the stakeholders are now making their observations. Many changes will take place and we must go to Brussels before the end of the year. We hope to have that new programme ready for 1 January 2015. Land review policies are also under discussion. Some180,000 acres of land could be planted. A review is taking place and the hen harrier issue is part of that. I have been in constant consultation with the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. We met only last week, and may meet again next week. Last night I met a group of people who were concerned about the delay in allowing that land to be planted. There are huge opportunities there. Dr. Nuala Ní Fhlatharta, head of the forestry development department at Teagasc, is chairing a group that is trying to make land availability clearer and give direction on the issue into the future. I hope to have that report to hand before the end of the year. If we have that to hand, we will put a bigger forestry programme in place.

Broadly, there are huge opportunities for employment. I was in Connemara, County Gal- way last week, which I think is in Senator Ó Clochartaigh’s constituency-----

09/10/2014M00200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: It is.

09/10/2014M00300Deputy Tom Hayes: It was great to see in an area like that a very efficient outfit cutting, milling and processing timber that was grown in the south of Ireland. The timber was brought up to Connemara, cut and exported, ready for the market in London. It was great to see the quality of product that was being produced in that mill, and the workers’ commitment to life there, and that they could have their jobs in a rural area. That is an example of what is being done with forestry. In ten years time, forestry will be in a great place. People I meet in forestry and with connections to it are very committed. They are not whingers, they are not giving out about rural Ireland, they are simply committed to doing their job and doing it well. They are passionate about growing their trees and growing them well. The milling industry was in dire straits at the end of the recession, when the Irish building industry on which it was so depen- dent, collapsed. However, it immediately went and found markets in Britain and in France, to which it is now exporting. It is a real success story. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to address these issues. I just want to outline the commitment and to say that there is a commitment at Government level, at Department level, in the Forest Service and by everyone else involved, to drive this industry forward. The potential there is absolutely immense.

Question put and agreed to.

SECTION 6

09/10/2014M00600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 6:

In page 9, to delete lines 18 and 19 and substitute the following:

“(e) purchase land that is for sale, land swop, or lease for afforestation or any other forestry related activity,”.

This relates to the phrase “or otherwise acquire” used in the Bill. We have concerns as to what is meant by “otherwise acquire”, because that is the only difference between what the 738 9 October 2014 Government is saying and what we are saying. There are concerns that compulsory purchase orders might be made, and that the State could in some heavy-handed way take over forestry areas, etc. The Minister might clarify for us what he means by “purchase or otherwise acquire”, because that is the substantial difference between what we are saying and what he is saying.

09/10/2014M00800Deputy Tom Hayes: The concern expressed during the previous consideration of this provision was that it enabled the Minister to compulsorily acquire land. To reiterate, I have received legal advice that section 6(e) does not provide the Minister with the power to compulsorily purchase land. The term used in the subsection “or otherwise acquire” is sufficiently broad to cater for any type of acquisition, including by lease, other than compulsory acquisition, as I have already clarified. Accordingly, I do not accept this amendment, because there is no need for it.

Amendment put and declared lost.

09/10/2014M01000Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Amendments Nos. 7 and 9 are related and may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

09/10/2014M01100Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 7:

In page 9, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:

“(k) undertake the protection of woodlands on areas less than 0.1 hectares.”.

The section to which we are referring to here relates to the specific functions of the Min- ister. With this amendment, I seek to add that the Minister, in addition to all his other duties - which go right through the alphabet as far as “k” - would “undertake the protection of woodlands on areas less than 0.1 hectares”. The Minister has already communicated his enthusiasm for that and we look forward to his report in January.

I am informed by botanists that we have a problem with woodlands in Ireland. Native woodland is dominated by the mainly broadleafed, native tree species. It is a semi-natural habitat with historical and ecological links to the original wild woods that preceded it. It is a vital reservoir of biodiversity, as well as being of high cultural significance and amenity value. That covers less than 1% of the land area and the remainder is the plantation forest, which is dominated by non-native coniferous trees and now covers about 10% of the State. Its direct commercial value as timber is far greater, but its biodiversity, cultural and amenity value is far less than that of the native woodland. It is native woodland on the sites less than a hectare that is of concern.

I think the Minister is already there in spirit, but it may be necessary to state in legislation that that is one of the things for which he as Minister will be looking out. I know he is already looking out for it, but the problem, as defined to me by some botanists, is that we have put many resources into the 10% and the 1% is really valuable. If much of it is in units of less than 0.1 hectare, society as a whole will support the Minister in that it should be under his care. There is a duty of care here. I do not think it imposes any particular obligations on the Minister, but within his strategy statement, so to speak, the protection of woodlands should also, in view of biodiversity and climate change, have the benign attention of the Minister.

09/10/2014M01300Deputy Tom Hayes: I will address amendments Nos. 7 and 9 together.

The purpose of defining an area threshold of 0.1 hectares is to ensure that the felling of small 739 Seanad Éireann groups of trees is regulated by licence. To reduce the threshold further would result in the majority of trees within Ireland requiring a licence where felling is proposed. As stated previously on Committee Stage in the Dáil, this Bill is about striking an appropriate balance between pro- tecting the national forest resource and allowing individual trees to be felled without a licence in certain circumstances. The removal of the facility to allow certain trees to be exempted from a felling licence would not provide an appropriate balance.

I would also point out that I have made a number of amendments to section 19 on Commit- tee Stage in the Dáil which recognises the importance of certain types of individual trees which will now require a felling licence. These changes were put in place following a number of proposals from stakeholders and Deputies when the Bill was passing through the other House. While I recognise that I have not taken on board all proposed amendments I feel that an appropriate balance has been struck. I might further add that section 30(2)(c) in this Bill does allow for the list of exempted trees to be reviewed, which could result in the addition or removal of such trees in the future. In addition, other legislative provisions allow tree preservation orders to be placed on individual trees by a local authorities where such trees have a particularly amenity, landscape or cultural value. On that basis, I do not propose to accept the amendments.

09/10/2014N00200Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Is the amendment being pressed?

09/10/2014N00300Senator Sean D. Barrett: I thank the Minister for his reply. We are substantially at one on this and I will not press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 6 agreed to.

SECTION 7

09/10/2014N00600Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Amendment No. 8 in the name of Senator Ó Clochartaigh has been ruled out of order due to a potential charge on the Exchequer. Amend- ment No. 9 which has already been discussed with amendment No. 7 is in the name of Senator Barrett.

Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 not moved.

Section 7 agreed to.

SECTION 8

09/10/2014N01000Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 10:

In page 11, line 1, after “Minister” to insert “in consultation with the appropriate Oireach- tas committee”.

This amendment was tabled before recent controversies developed. It may be covered by what the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, recently set out. My experience on the transport committee where we chose a chairman for Dublin Bus in all-party harmony contrasted with certain other events which have not been referred to by me to date. If it is of assistance to the Minister, I note that the amendment is offered for that reason. It may be covered by the proposals of the Minister, Deputy Howlin, during the week. The amendment was intended to compliment the Oireachtas on where the new system already works as in the

740 9 October 2014 case I mentioned.

09/10/2014N01100Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Is the amendment being pressesd?

09/10/2014N01200Senator Sean D. Barrett: The amendment proposes that the Minister would appoint the members of a committee in consultation with the appropriate Oireachtas committee. I await the Minister of State’s reply as to whether the amendment is accepted or we go with Deputy Howlin. It is offered in the spirit that the Oireachtas should not get into the kind of trouble that happened recently. I have no indication that the Minister of State needs this amendment or has any track record like the recent unhappy events. Will we have a new way of appointing people to committees and posts? I offer my amendment in the spirit of how matters work on the committee set up by the previous Minister, Deputy Varadkar, and currently operated by the new Minister, Deputy Paschal Donohoe.

09/10/2014N01300Deputy Tom Hayes: The text, as drafted in the Bill, provides the Minister with powers to establish committees to assist and advise him or her on the performance of his or her functions under the relevant statutory provisions. On Committee Stage in the Dáil, I introduced my own amendment to create section 8(5), which aims to ensure that the composition of committees includes members with the relevant expertise having due regard to social, economic and environmental interests, where appropriate. In addition, the Minister must have the power to establish and dissolve committees quickly when their work is completed.

Committees will only be established for good reason and their composition will reflect the relevant expertise required to carry out the relevant work. To provide on a statutory footing a requirement to consult the relevant Oireachtas committee before any committee is established would be unwieldy given the safeguards already in place. However, I assure Senators that I am at all times available to meet Members of this House to discuss issues relating to my brief. That is where I want to keep it and I therefore do not propose to accept this amendment.

09/10/2014N01400Senator Sean D. Barrett: I thank the Minister for his reply.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 8 agreed to.

SECTION 9

Question proposed: “That section 9 stand part of the Bill.”

09/10/2014N01900Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: We have had a great deal of discussion over the last number of weeks on State board appointees. People with oversight roles on committees and boards have a duty to stand up for the rights of whatever groups they represent. If the citizens are to have confidence in the arms and structures of the State, it is important to provide for openness and transparency. Section 9 is very much a gagging clause in respect of the people who would be members of a committee. It shuts down people who might disclose information. Notwithstanding that it might be confidential information, it might relate to wrongdoing.

In light of the principles of transparency and accountability, Sinn Féin has a fundamental issue with a section which would preclude people from disclosing confidential information obtained by them while performing - or as a result of having performed - duties as a member of a committee unless he or she is authorised to do so by the Minister. It provides the Minister with a very strong hand over any person who has ever been a member of a relevant committee. 741 Seanad Éireann Even if there were underhand things happening or matters about which a committee member was unhappy that were not in his or her opinion in the best interests of the country, he or she would be prohibited from disclosing the information. On that premise, we oppose the section.

09/10/2014N02000Senator Brian Ó Domhnaill: I disagree with what my Sinn Féin colleague has just said. One need only look at what is happening in any sector of Irish society where one has individuals, such as those working in the Central Bank, who are poached into the private sector or persons who are providing information externally. When one reads back over some of what happened in the lead up to the bank guarantee, one must question the external factors which hovered above individuals who had classified information given where that information ended up. I would like to see some clarification from the Minister, but I presume that it is not information for the public good that we are discussing. What we are talking about is information used for personal gain.

The full rigours of the law should apply where an individual on a board like Bord na gCon or Horse Racing Ireland or a committee under the aegis of the Minister passes information having left the position or during his or her tenure which is commercially sensitive or, more important, financially lucrative to other individuals and that information is used for the financial gain of outside persons. It goes without question that if an individual is appointed to a State board and feeds information to his or her own sector or colleagues or others whereby it can be used for financial gain, he or she should face the full rigours of the law. I think I understand where Sena- tor Ó Clochartaigh is coming from - he is looking at the public good - but there is a very fine balance between the public good, commercially sensitive information and personal gain. On reading the section, I agree with the Minister of State and presume the clarification will accord with what I have set out.

09/10/2014N02100Deputy Tom Hayes: Unauthorised disclosure of confidential information by members of committees should be discouraged and the penalty for so doing should be dissuasive. I must emphasise in this context the word “confidential”. It is not intended to preclude general comment or discussion on everyday issues relating to a committee. We are talking, for example, about unauthorised disclosures of ongoing and sensitive negotiation positions at national or EU level which could be damaging to the State’s official position. That is in essence the point Senator Ó Domhnaill has made.

I accept that a balance must be struck between the need for confidentiality in certain circumstances and the need to encourage and not deter people whose participation and contribution to such committees would be of great value. In that context, I took on board the concerns expressed in a number of quarters that the possibility of severe penalties would deter people from becoming members of such committees and introduced an amendment to reduce the penalty to €500 from the original €5,000. That issue was of major concern to many people. I also reviewed the issue of disclosure of information in the public interest in consultation with my legal advisors. My advice is that the words “or as provided by law” included in the existing text of section 9(1) already accommodates the public interest in that it encompasses the range of legislative provisions dealing with release of information. The important point to note in this context is that confidential information may only be released by the Minister or as provided by law. This encompasses personal information which cannot generally be released in the public interest because personal rights are enshrined in the Constitution, the European Convention on Human Rights and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. On the other hand, the release of commercially sensitive information is covered in the Freedom of Informa- tion Acts. All the aforementioned legislative acts are included in the subsection by refer- 742 9 October 2014 ence to “provided by law”. In the circumstances, I do not propose to accept the amendment.

09/10/2014O00200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I thank the Minister for his reply. I take on board the point made by Senator Ó Domhnaill and appreciate the point regarding the need for discretion around commercially sensitive information. With regard to the particular Oireachtas committee on which I sit, an individual who was acting on behalf of the State is playing hardball about coming before the committee to discuss a case put before us. What happens if somebody has been on one of these committees and the committee wants to bring him or her in because it is not happy about the way the committees are working or some of the decisions that have been made? There are those who would love to get people from Uisce Éireann to appear before a committee to investigate some of the issues that are going on there. We do not know whether something similar could happen on one of these committees which would result in a wish to being people before an Oireachtas committee and question them. Would they be able to use this section to say that they cannot disclose any information or discuss what happened because there is sensitive information there and they are not authorised to do so by the Minister? In the spirit of openness and transparency, could we be tripping ourselves up in the future? Could people use this as a get-out clause if we want to investigate the work of the committee that the Minister of State is talking about?

09/10/2014O00300Deputy Tom Hayes: That is not the intention.

09/10/2014O00400Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: It never is.

09/10/2014O00500Deputy Tom Hayes: I know it never is, but the intention here is that sensitive information cannot be given out. It has already been pointed out that regardless of whether one runs a business or a Government agency, if one has to withhold sensitive information one must not allow that to be covered, so there is a clear line of distinction. Basically, I want to say that one can give information where one can, but where it is sensitive it cannot be given out. I do not think one reads in the local newspapers some of the stuff that people might hear, as the information is quite confidential and sensitive to a board or organisation. This information cannot just be given out. People could not operate in that environment, particularly public bodies such as Coillte.

Question put and declared carried.

SECTION 10

09/10/2014O00800Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

09/10/2014O00900Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I was sent a note to say that these amendments had been ruled out of order.

09/10/2014O01000Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Amendments Nos. 8 and 18 are out of order.

09/10/2014O01100Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 11:

In page 11, line 34, to delete “may” and substitute “should”.

This is quite a simple amendment. The section provides that the Minister may by notice in writing require an owner of a forest to submit a forest management plan. It just changes the word from “may” to “should” because we feel that “may” leaves things quite open-ended for a Minister. I know that when the former Minister for the Environment, Community and Local 743 Seanad Éireann Government was here to discuss septic tanks, we had a very long discussion about “may” and “should”, and I do not want to go down that route again. Basically, it is a fact that if the word “should” is used, a Minister has to be proactive and use his or her power, whereas if the word “may” is used, it is a bit more discretionary and leaves things open. That is why we were suggesting this change. Obviously, amendments Nos. 11 and 12 have the same logic and rationale.

09/10/2014O01200Senator Feargal Quinn: I have not spoken on this before. It relates to the management plan. I was delighted to hear what the Minister of State said earlier when he spoke about the potential for forestry and said that it was not all limited to Coillte and that the aim was to encourage private investment. That is what concerns me here. In respect of encouraging private investors, there seems to be much red tape and administrative burden placed on anybody who is thinking of getting involved in business, no matter what business we are talking about. I hope the Minister of State could outline to me what sort of forest management plan he is talking about. Is there a danger that the management plan would force the investor to resort to the work of specialists - for example, to complete a survey of the land? Could they do that on their own, or would the Minister of State be able to give a rough cost and timeframe for the completion of a forest management plan for an average-sized forest? I have full confidence in the Minister of State but I am worried that some future Minister might have a different attitude. I know the way the Minister of State feels, but if we pass legislation that enables a future Minister to impose such a detailed and expensive forest plan, it might deter people who would otherwise invest.

09/10/2014O01300Deputy Tom Hayes: While I appreciate that the proposal in amendment No. 11 to substitute “should” for “may” is positive towards forestry management planning, I believe the use of the word “may” is more appropriate in this section, and for this reason I do not agree with the proposed amendment. The size of a forest can vary from small to very large and it is important that this provision be flexible enough to allow for a selective approach to the requirement for a management plan.

In respect of amendment No. 12, it is implicit in section 10(4) that any plan that is changed or modified will state the reasons for so doing. I would also draw Members’ attention to section 10(6) of the Bill, where provision is made for the making of regulations to provide for the implementation of plans. In drafting such regulations, a Minister will have to have regard to the doctrine of proportionality, particularly that any requirement he or she proposes would not be disproportionate to the objectives he or she is seeking to achieve and that reasons are given where plans are rejected or revoked. The intention is to make management plans as user- friendly as possible, and my Department will provide templates and guidelines to facilitate this process. The intention of the Forestry Bill is to have less red tape and to make it easier. A lot of time, effort and discussions happened during the past number of months to make sure that management plans were made easier. What a future Minister might or might not do is not in my hands, but the thrust of where forestry is going in Ireland is to make it easier and more amenable for people.

09/10/2014O01400Senator Feargal Quinn: I thank the Minister of State for that answer, which has certainly put my mind at rest.

09/10/2014O01500Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Is the amendment being pressed?

09/10/2014O01600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Yes.

Amendment put and declared lost.

744 9 October 2014

09/10/2014O01800Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 12:

In page 12, line 5, after “may,” to insert “having stated his reasons for doing so,”.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 10 agreed to.

SECTION 11

09/10/2014O02200Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 13:

In page 12, between lines 28 and 29, to insert the following:

“(iv) an assessment of the visual impact of woodlands;

(v) an assessment of the noise abatement impact of woodlands;”.

The role of the Minister in safeguarding the environment could nearly be an entire Statute Book in itself, because there are so many duties imposed on him or her.

On the visual impact of woodlands, poems are written by fools like me, but only God can make a tree. Noise abatement is also a notable new feature of woodlands, particularly since we constructed the motorways. The county councils and, subsequently, the National Roads Authority, NRA, planted trees alongside them. I would like such trees to be protected in the assessment because they peform a valuable function and were planted for a good reason. Kildare County Council had its own plantation which was used to supply trees along the motorways in that county before they became the responsibility of the NRA.

In respect of the section, some environmentalists have expressed concern that the screening or first stage is not sufficiently thorough. We should also take account of biodiversity and broadleaf trees. Would it be preferable to carry out a more thorough environmental impact assessment at an earlier stage and is the assessment comprehensive enough? I have suggested the noise and visual aspects as two aspects worth considering. My intention is to assist the Minister of State in his duty of safeguarding the environment, which is the subject of section 11.

09/10/2014P00200Deputy Tom Hayes: Section 11(a) requires the Minister to have regard to the social, economic and environmental functions of forests. To list all of the functions of forests in detail in the Bill, including the visual and noise abatement impacts, could lessen the importance of other environmental functions not mentioned. The terminology “environmental functions of forestry” can include landscape and noise abatement, where appropriate. Furthermore, if an application requires the submission of an environmental impact assessment as described in section 11(d), a wide range of environmental factors must be considered. Therefore, I do not accept the amendment.

09/10/2014P00300Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Is the amendment being pressed?

09/10/2014P00400Senator Sean D. Barrett: No. I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive reply. This is a comprehensive area and the Minister of State has included it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 11 agreed to. 745 Seanad Éireann SECTION 12

09/10/2014P00800Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 14:

In page 13, line 7, to delete “6 months” and substitute “1 month”.

This amendment deals with the case of a forest being destroyed or removed, which is a very serious matter. We are all agreed in this House that if a forest is removed by any means, including fire or natural causes, the owners should notify the Minister in writing of the particulars of the destruction or removal, including the area, location and extent of destruction or removal. I would prefer the Minister to have this information within one month rather than six. We do not want people to wander into the forestry office to say they destroyed a forest five or six months ago. It is a matter that requires an urgent response and that is the spirit in which the amendment is proposed.

09/10/2014P00900Deputy Tom Hayes: The period of six months for notification of the destruction or removal of a forest estate by fire or other natural causes is considered reasonable and it is not proposed to reduce it. Forests, by their nature, are generally located in remote areas and damage may not always be immediately noted by the landowner. In many instances, landowners do not live close to their forests and to impose a one month notification period would place unreasonable demands on such landowners to monitor their properties on a monthly basis. The six month period is considered to be a reasonable length of time within which notification should be given and, for this reason, I cannot agree to the amendment. There are many reasons one month is not sufficient. For example, a person may be away on holidays. One month is not a long period of time. On consideration of the matter, we thought the fairest and best period was six months.

09/10/2014P01000Senator Sean D. Barrett: The Minister of State is a kindlier man than me, but I will not press the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 12 agreed to.

SECTION 13

09/10/2014P01400Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 15:

In page 13, between lines 30 to 31, to insert the following:

“(2) The collection of information for statistical purposes be undertaken by the For- estry Service in a voluntary capacity as per other agricultural commodities.”.

There has been extensive discussion about the potential of the industry. We need to consider how onerous the gathering of information may be on those working in the industry. We do not want to see people using more trees in their paperwork than they are using in their day-to-day business. The amendment provides that the “collection of information for statistical purposes be undertaken by the Forestry Service in a voluntary capacity as per other agricultural commodities”. It is the practice in other areas of agriculture that this role is performed by similar bodies and it would lighten the load on those who work in the industry.

09/10/2014P01500Deputy Tom Hayes: This section is important for the collection of statistics and information on the national forest estate which will complement national and EU reporting require-

746 9 October 2014 ments. The collection of information on forests will also provide information for the Minister on how forests are being managed and will help to determine the direction of future policy, including the provision of financial support and incentives. I listened to stakeholders’ comments and on Committee Stage in the Dáil I introduced an amendment that highlighted the main types of information forest owners might be required to supply. The collection of data will mainly relate to information on timber felled. Although other information may be specified in the notice, my amendment, while not addressing all of the issues of concern to landowners, goes some way to reducing the burden on them. Much of the information gathered for reporting purposes is sourced from the Department’s records, but a significant amount is also sourced through contacts with the industry and other third parties. Generally, the information is provided on a voluntary basis. However, the provisions of section 13 are designed to cater for situations where information is not readily made available. It is not envisaged that the provision will be used extensively or that it will place an undue burden on either forest owners or businesses.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 13 agreed to.

Section 14 agreed to.

SECTION 15

09/10/2014P02000Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 16:

In page 15, between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following:

“(b) deer;”.

This section provides that where the Minister is satisfied that trees in a forest are being or are likely to be damaged by vermin, the owner of the land concerned may be served with a notice stating the trees are likely to be damaged by vermin and directing that the vermin be destroyed so far as is reasonably practicable to do so, or that certain specified steps be taken to prevent damage within such time as the Minister may specify. The animals identified as vermin are squirrels and wild or feral animals that are not protected wild animals. I include deer because I understand they are a major threat to forests. Does the Minister have powers elsewhere to control the damage done by deer to forests?

09/10/2014P02100Deputy Tom Hayes: Provision is made for the classification of deer in section 15(4)(c) of the Bill which states: ‘’subject to subsection (5), a species protected under the Wildlife Acts 1976 to 2012 or the Habitats Regulations”. Deer are a protected species in Ireland under the terms of the Wildlife Acts and it is an offence to hunt them without a licence. I am satisfied that adequate provision is made for deer and, therefore, cannot agree to the amendment.

09/10/2014P02200Senator Sean D. Barrett: I thank the Minister of State.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

1 o’clock

Section 15 agreed to.Section 16 agreed to.

SECTION 17

747 Seanad Éireann

09/10/2014Q00400Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 17:

In page 16, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:

“(3) A licence approval will issue in default of decision by the Minister 12 weeks from receipt of the application. This approval, however, will be waived if there is requirement for an Environmental Impact Statement or Appropriate Assessment.”.

This amendment relates to the applications for licences for felling trees. This is to encourage the efficient processing of the licensing regime. For example, the issuing of aquaculture licences is in massive backlog. The industry is in stasis because licences have been held up for five years in some cases in the Department. While the Minister would not wish that to happen with felling licences, we need to ensure that such delays which could affect the industry and force businesses to close do not happen in the future. This amendment seeks to put the onus on the Department to do its business in a forthright and efficient manner. If it does not, the amendment contains a default clause that will kick in and allow businesses to continue with their work. We feel this is a pragmatic response to a practical issue and hope the Minister will take it on board. We can give other examples of where similar applications have been held up because a Department either has not got the resources or is not processing them.

09/10/2014Q00500Deputy Tom Hayes: The question of timelines for the issuing of felling licences was raised in discussions I had with industry representatives and growers. I have already made a significant change to the Bill by placing an objective timeline of four months for the issuing of felling licences. In some cases, licences will be issued within a shorter timeframe.

In assessing applications for felling licences, my Department must take cognisance of the fact that forest-harvesting operations and associated activities have the potential to impact sig- nificantly on protected habitats, archaeological monuments, water quality, including public water supplies, as well as important landscapes. Consequently, before a felling licence can be granted, my Department consults with a wide range of agencies including the National Parks and Wildlife Service, local authorities, the National Monuments Service and Inland Fisheries Ireland, to assess the potential impacts that may arise from harvesting activity.

This amendment seeks the automatic issuing of a licence within 12 weeks of an application except where an environmental or appropriate assessment is required. However, all applications must be screened for their environmental impact which includes the consultations to which I have just referred. The automatic issuing of a licence where such processes have not been completed could pose significant environmental risks and cannot be contemplated.

It should also be borne in mind that a single felling licence application can cover a large land area incorporating several rivers, lakes and designated nature conservation sites such as special areas of conservation, special protection areas and natural heritage areas. Accordingly, it takes time to assess the possible impact of forest-harvesting operations over such large areas.

It must be acknowledged that I have already made significant changes to the existing Bill by aiming to have felling decisions in four months. Progress against this target will be monitored and it will be clear to all how many licences are being issued. I also introduced further dead- lines within which certain specified actions must be taken so that the applicant is given some degree of certainty as to when the application will be processed. This will also ensure they are kept informed of issues that might affect the completion of the processing of their application. I have provided for the publication of decisions made in respect of licence applications. This 748 9 October 2014 practice is already in place for approvals of applications to afforest and for forest road works where decisions are published on the Department’s website. The purpose of this provision is to further improve access for the public to forestry information.

Amendment put and declared lost.

09/10/2014Q00700Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): Amendment No. 18 has been ruled out of order as it involves a potential charge on the Exchequer.

Amendment No. 18 not moved.

09/10/2014Q00900Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): Amendments Nos. 19 to 22, inclusive are related an may be discussed together by agreement of the House.

09/10/2014Q01000Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 19:

In page 16, line 18, after “conditions” to insert “that are in accordance with good forest practices”.

This amendment aims to strengthen the legislation. Section 17(4) states “the Minister may at any time attach or vary conditions to any licence granted”. We are proposing that “in accordance with good forest practice” be attached to strengthen the provision.

09/10/2014Q01100Senator Sean D. Barrett: Section 17(4) allows for the Minister, when granting a felling licence, to require the replanting of trees at such places and of such species. There is no environmental compensation if a very large tree is knocked down only to be replaced by a little sapling. It would be 25 years before the replacement matures. My amendments seek to ensure felled trees are replaced by suitable sized and mature trees.

I have also proposed a time requirement for replanting which will ensure it does not exceed one year. Certain parts of County Wicklow have been made unattractive by stumps left behind after deforestation. From a tourism and environmental point of view, some of the cleared forests look pretty awful. Is it possible to have such sites tidied up within one year rather than having scrubs and stumps? Wicklow, the Garden County, is one of the most scenic counties. Can foresters make a contribution to its beauty by replanting felled trees quickly? Is there an obstacle that prevents them from doing so?

Section 17(5) states “In considering applications for a licence, the Minister may consult any person whom he or she considers to be appropriate”. My amendment No. 22 proposes to include the National Heritage Council and persons residing nearby who may be affected by the visual impact of tree felling.

09/10/2014Q01200Deputy Tom Hayes: With regard to amendment No. 19, it is implicit in the Bill that felling licences and conditions will generally be in accordance with good forest practice. However, there may be limited circumstances where licences may be issued which do not fall into the category strictly described as “good forest practice”. For example, there may be valid reasons where tree felling is for social or conservation reasons, which may not necessarily be described as good forest practice. Examples might include a forest owner proposing to remove a small area of forest for the creation of a sports ground for a local village or the felling of trees to pri- oritise the conservation of a protected species. Although the power to attach conditions is provided for in this Bill, the felling licence application process allows for the owner’s objectives to be included in the licensing process. 749 Seanad Éireann With regard to amendment No. 20, the specification of a level of maturity of trees to be replanted can be accommodated within the standard conditions for tree planting. Therefore, there is no need for this amendment. With regard to amendment No. 21, it is a matter of judgment, having regard to the individual circumstances of each case as to the length of time that should be allowed for replanting to take place. The key to this Bill has been flexibility and workable arrangements that facilitate all involved in forestry. To impose an upper limit of one year as proposed, although not unreasonable, ties the Minister’s hands in cases where a more flexible approach may be required. For example, this could happen where natural regeneration is recommended. My preferred approach is to retain the current wording, which states “within such period as may be specified”, and for this reason I do not accept this amendment. Certain management practices for forestry must be taken into account, and there may be disease or other issues that must be accommodated at certain times.

With regard to amendment No. 22, under the existing wording, the Minister may “consult any person whom he or she considers to be appropriate”. The wording allows for consultation in an unrestricted manner that could include the National Heritage Council, neighbouring landowners or other interested parties, including local authorities, Inland Fisheries Ireland or the National Parks and Wildlife Service where it is considered appropriate. The range of possible consultees is extensive and I do not consider it necessary to specify individual groups. I do not accept this amendment.

09/10/2014R00200Senator Sean D. Barrett: I will not press the amendments. I thank the Minister of State for his due consideration of them and his sympathy towards the sentiments expressed. It is to be commended.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Amendments Nos. 20 to 22, inclusive, not moved.

Section 17 agreed to.

Section 18 agreed to.

SECTION 19

09/10/2014R00400Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): Amendments Nos. 23 to 28, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

09/10/2014R00500Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 23:

In page 18, to delete lines 17 to 19.

Section 19, as per the explanatory memorandum, enables the Minister to issue an order prohibiting the felling or removing of trees, including exempted trees, and makes it an offence not to comply with the order. There is a list from sections 19(1)(a) to 19(1)(o) of exempted trees. Section 19(1)(a) indicates that a tree in an urban area is exempted, and I am worried by this. All the trees we can see from the Chamber could be exempted. Section 19(1)(b) indicates that a tree within 30 m of a building is exempt, and this should be reduced to within 10 m of a building. Trees are part of our landscape and it is draconian to allow people to remove all trees within 30 m of a building. Amendment No. 28 is a Sinn Féin amendment and I could not pos- sibly presume what my colleagues from those benches would say. My amendments delete the lines giving exemption to a tree in an urban area and within 30 m of a building. The resumption 750 9 October 2014 of the building industry is positive but in the past, builders have taken a very cavalier attitude towards trees in the suburbs of Dublin. I am seeking to protect from such behaviour.

09/10/2014R00600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Amendment No. 28 arises from some of the representations received by bodies such as the Environmental Pillar. This regards the felling of hedgerows for the purposes of trimming, as long as the tree does not exceed 20 cm in diameter when measured 1.3 m from the ground. We suggest the addition of the clause “or is not a hedgerow of historical, ecological and/or landscape” value. The reason for this is obvious, as there are remnants of ancient woodlands which may have a rich biodiversity. There is variation between hedges, with many delivering significant benefits under many headings, with poor quality hedges delivering relatively less value. Hedges have historical, ecological and landscape significance. They should be protected, which is why we are suggesting this addition to the section.

09/10/2014R00700Deputy Tom Hayes: With regard to amendment No. 23, the exclusion from the felling licence system of trees in urban areas does not involve any change of policy on the part of the Department. It is a continuation of the position that pertains with the 1946 Forestry Act. The rationale for exempting trees within urban areas is primarily based on public safety concerns, which remain valid in the context of this Bill. It is open to local authorities to place tree preservation orders on individual trees or groups of trees which it considers worthy of preservation for amenity or environmental reasons, including veteran trees. The experience generally is that people are responsible for and protective of trees within their communities and there is no evidence of widespread abuse of this provision. Similarly, the purpose of having an exemption from the felling licensing system for trees within 30 m of a building is health and safety; again, it is a continuation of the position that pertains under the 1946 Act. If a tree adjacent to a building is in a dangerous condition, immediate steps must be taken to remove the risk to life and property. In such cases, it would be totally irresponsible to require an application for a licence before removing the tree.

With regard to amendment No. 24, although the Bill vests responsibility for licensing of tree felling in the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, there are cases where other public and State authorities, in the performance of their statutory functions, must be empowered to remove trees without having to obtain a felling licence from this Department. It is important to stress that the exemption only applies to cases where they are performing those statutory functions. In this context, it is also important to point out that for the purpose of this provision, Coillte Teoranta is not regarded as a public authority and must apply for a license when felling trees.

With regard to amendment No. 25, in the case of the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, the exemption relates to lands held or managed on his or her behalf for the purposes of the Wildlife Acts. To require a felling licence in such cases would be an unnecessary imposition on a body which is charged with the protection of flora and fauna on those lands, the achievement of which may, in whole or in part, require the removal of trees. With regard to amendment No. 26, I do not believe it is either practical or advisable for landowners to first obtain the opinion of the local authority or the National Parks and Wildlife Service, which I presume is what is meant by the national heritage authority, before dealing with trees which have become dangerous to users of the public roads because of their age, condition or due to ground stability.

Senators will recall that during the storms earlier this year trees and branches fell onto public roads throughout the country. This provision is intended to allow land-holders or owners 751 Seanad Éireann to respond to such occurrences in a timely manner without the requirement to first apply for a felling licence or to wait for an inspection from a local authority roads engineer.

I do not believe that the exemption will lead to the widespread felling of roadside trees. However, in response to concerns raised by stakeholders to the effect that the exemption was too broad and could lead to widescale removal of trees, I made an amendment on Report Stage in the Dáil imposing an additional requirement on landowners to ensure that only trees they reasonably consider to pose a threat to public safety on the grounds of their age and condition can be removed without a licence. The provision is intended to supplement but not replace section 70 of the Roads Act 1993, which already allows a local authority, in its capacity as a road authority, to serve a notice on a landowner requiring him or her to fell, cut, lop, trim or remove roadside trees it deems hazardous or a potential hazard.

Senator Barrett has also tabled amendment No. 27. The purpose of the exemption contained in section 19(1)(m)(ii) is to regularise a situation that many people have unfairly found themselves in whereby they have applied to a local authority in good faith for planning permission to build, for example, a dwelling house, the construction of which involved the removal of one or two trees. In many cases, the permission came with conditions requiring the replanting of a greater number of trees for landscaping or screening purposes and only later have they discov- ered, as they were about to begin construction works, that they also needed a felling licence for something for which they sincerely believed they had already received comprehensive approval from the State.

Senator Ó Clochartaigh has tabled amendment No. 28. The protection of hedgerows of historical, ecological or landscape significance was raised during consultations with environmental stakeholders. I introduced amendments on Committee and Report Stages in the Dáil to address some of these concerns in so far as it is practical and appropriate to the Forestry Bill. These amendments are reflected in section 19(2) and extend protection for certain classes of trees. However, the Bill is not about regulating the alteration or removal of hedgerows in general. The Wildlife Acts and the Environmental Impact Assessment (Agriculture) Regula- tions 2011 deal with this issue. Furthermore, there is no national register of hedgerows that are deemed to be of historical, ecological or landscape significance. In the absence of such a register it would be up to the landowners to decide if a tree was in a hedgerow of historical, ecological or landscape significance and to determine if a felling licence is required to cut or remove a tree, and this is highly subjective. Accordingly, I cannot accept the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 24 to 27, inclusive, not moved.

09/10/2014S00400Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 28:

In page 19, line 21, after “ground” to insert “or is not a hedgerow of historical, ecological and/or landscape”.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 19 agreed to.

Section 20 agreed to.

SECTION 21 752 9 October 2014

09/10/2014S00900Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): Amendments Nos. 29 and 30 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement.

09/10/2014S01000Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 29:

In page 21, line 11, to delete “or modified”.

This deals with preservation orders. The Bill allows preservation orders to be modified. I believe preservation orders are preservation orders and should be complied with.

09/10/2014S01100Deputy Tom Hayes: I propose to address amendments Nos. 29 and 30 together. It is important to maintain the phrase “modified” in this section since the phrase “discharge” may not sufficiently cover all eventualities. A person could be served with a replanting order requiring him or her to replant an area with a specific species. In the interim it may become evident that the particular species of tree is subject to the threat of a particular disease or it may be impracti- cal to source a sufficient number of saplings of the particular tree species to replant the entire area. In such circumstances it is necessary for the Minister to be able to issue a certificate to the Property Registration Authority modifying the terms of the replanting order. For this reason I will not be accepting the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 30 not moved.

Section 21 agreed to.

Section 22 agreed to.

SECTION 23

09/10/2014S01700Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 31:

In page 23, line 8, after “officers” to insert “competent in the area of forestry regulation”.

This is a small amendment in the area of enforcement relating to officers authorised to enforce the law. Section 23(1) states: “The Minister may appoint such and so many persons as he or she considers appropriate to be authorised officers for the purposes of the enforcement of all or any of the relevant statutory provisions.” We believe the relevant officers should be competent in the area of forestry regulation. I imagine the preference of the Minister of State would be for anyone who is to enforce these regulations to be competent but we cannot preclude the possibility that, in future, someone may be sent out who is ill-qualified or incompetent in the area of forestry regulation.

In recent years civil servants have moved between Departments and offices. People who may not have a track record in a particular area have gone to a different section of a Depart- ment and so forth. We have even seen people from JobBridge taken on by Departments. I had a question on the Adjournment one day relating to the Department of Justice and Equality, which took on a large number of people to clear the backlog in processing driving licences, for example. Who is to know who the authorised officers appointed in future by the Minister will be? It is only prudent and fair to the people working in the industry and to all the stakeholders involved as well as for good compliance to have people who are competent in the area of forestry regulation. We cannot see why the Minister of State would oppose that.

753 Seanad Éireann

09/10/2014S01800Deputy Tom Hayes: The use of the word “competent” in this context is subjective. Au- thorised officers who are appointed will be suitably trained and qualified to act in a profes- sional manner in respect of the duties undertaken under this Bill and will be fully familiar with the regulatory environment within which they operate. That is of major importance and it is a given. They have to be competent and must know what they are going about. There is no doubting that fact.

It is the responsibility of the Minister to ensure that only appropriate people are appointed as authorised officers. The Bill states that the Minister may appoint such persons as he considers appropriate and it is implicit that authorised officers will be suitable. To define “competent” in the legislation could be open to several different interpretations. It is for the Minister to determine who is competent to be an authorised officer, based on the purpose for which the person is appointed. There is a need for these officers to be competent and there is no doubt that they must know what they are going about. This is a complex area and they must be people with a knowledge. That is what this about. Therefore, we are not accepting the amendment.

09/10/2014S01900Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: With all due respect to the Minster of State I do not share his confidence. The stipulation should be copper-fastened in the legislation. Any of us in our various areas and constituencies can get telephone calls every day of the week from people engaging with Departments and at times they question the competency of some of the people who are doing what they are doing.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 23 agreed to.

Sections 24 and 25 agreed to.

SECTION 26

09/10/2014T00400Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): Amendments Nos. 32 and 33 are related and may be discussed together.

09/10/2014T00500Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 32:

In page 27, line 9, to delete “may” and substitute “shall in respect of paragraph (a), and may in respect of paragraphs (b) and (c)”.

This deals with replanting orders. Category (a) relates to trees that have been felled or otherwise removed without a licence - a fairly serious offence and an affront to the Minister and his Department. It states that in that case, “the Minister may issue a licence”. I want “shall” there. If somebody removes a forest without a licence, I would not say the Minister “may” do something about it. I am on the side of providing that the Minister “shall” do something about it. That is why that change is proposed. The reason I kept the word “may” in the amendment is that the other cases deal with trees

(b) felled under a licence and, either at the time of such felling or subsequently, a condition of the licence is contravened, or

I believe that (b) is something of an intermediate offence, and (c) is to do with the opinion

754 9 October 2014 of the Minister on allowing the damaged forest to be replaced. If a person knocks down a forest without a licence, the Minister has to take a stronger attitude in response than saying that he may require it to be replanted. That is why I propose the removal of “may”.

09/10/2014T00700Deputy Tom Hayes: The changes proposed in amendment No. 32 in respect of a tree felled or otherwise removed without a licence under section 7 would impose on the Minister an automatic obligation to issue a replanting order in all cases without having regard to the nature and extent of the unlicensed felling and the environmental and silvicultural considerations. With regard to amendment no. 33, it is a matter of judgment, having regard to the individual circumstances in each case, as to the length of time that should be allowed for replanting to take place. The key to this Bill has been flexibility and workable arrangements that facilitate all involved in forestry. To impose an upper limit of one year as proposed, while not unreasonable, does tie the Minister’s hands in situations where a more flexible approach may be required. My preferred approach is to retain the current wording contained within section 17(4)(b)(v), which applies to this subsection, and states “within such period of time ... as may be specified”. For that reason I cannot accept this amendment.

09/10/2014T00800Senator Sean D. Barrett: I would be less kindly towards a person who knocked down a forest without a licence, but I appreciate the Minister of State’s point. We did in fact discuss the one-year limit, and I accept the Minister of State’s statement about different forest practices and so on. I will not press either of those amendments, but I would be harder on somebody who knocked down a forest and was allowed off under ministerial discretion, whereby he or she “may” require its replacement. I am not pressing amendments Nos. 32 or 33.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 33 not moved.

Section 26 agreed to.

SECTION 27

09/10/2014T01600Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 34:

In page 28, line 11, to delete “A person” and substitute “A person under whose direction the activities are being conducted”.

I am open to persuasion on this one. I have been reading it myself. We want to make sure that the perpetrator of a wrong is the person who is prosecuted. I am talking about offences and penalties. What we have at the moment in section 27(2) is: “A person who contravenes a condition of a licence granted under the relevant statutory provisions (for which contravention an offence is not provided elsewhere in this Act) shall be guilty of an offence.” We are looking to make sure that the person under whose direction those activities were conducted is also the person who is taken to account. For example, people working in forestry could be given a direction by whoever owns that forest to fell trees in a certain area. That might happen in the normal run of their work. They could be felling trees in contravention of the licence that is granted, so there is a question of who is in the wrong. Is it the person who felled the trees under the direction of his or her boss, or is it the boss him- or herself? We want to state that it is an offence to fell a tree that should not be felled, but we would not want to see, for example, the owner of the forest getting away with unlicensed felling in full knowledge of what he or she is up to while the worker is scapegoated. I am open to the Minister of State’s answer on this one. 755 Seanad Éireann

09/10/2014T01800Deputy Tom Hayes: This is already provided for in section 17(6) of the Bill, which provides that if a person operating under the direction of another person contravenes the condition of a felling licence, both persons will be liable to prosecution. This amendment is therefore not necessary.

09/10/2014T01900Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I am not going to press the amendment, but I intend to look at the particular section and I reserve the right to table an amendment on Report Stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 27 agreed to.

Sections 28 and 29 agreed to.

SECTION 30

09/10/2014T02300Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 35:

In page 31, line 31, after “matters” to insert “including the development of third and fourth level education in forestry”.

This section of the Bill states:

When making regulations under subsection (2) the Minister shall have regard to the following: (...)

(f) promoting education and training in forestry and related matters”.

The College of Science, which later became UCD, had the first department of forestry, founded in 1913. As of today, according to the UCD website, there are only six staff, one of whom is part-time. This is a business that supports 12,000 jobs, and we mentioned the last day that Kinnitty, Avondale and Shelton Abbey have shut down. In the Wikipedia guide to forestry education in Europe, it is stated that 28 countries, from Albania to Romania, have scores of universities providing courses in forestry. Somebody did not fill in the form, as Ireland is not listed. We need to build up departments which appear to have been run down. This is going to be a major dynamic sector of the Irish economy in relation to forestry and the environment, and, as the Minister of State has said, from the point of view of visual amenity and so on. There is a special need to develop degree programmes. There are some in Waterford and Limerick as well as UCD, but it looks like an area of education where we have taken our eye off the ball. The purpose of the amendment is to draw attention to the need to build up third and fourth level education in forestry.

09/10/2014T02500Deputy Tom Hayes: The development of third and fourth level education in forestry is highly desirable and something that my Department is happy to endorse and encourage. How- ever, the responsibility for these areas lies within the remit of my colleague the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O’Sullivan. I take on board the points Senator Barrett has made. There is a lot of opportunity for people to get involved in forestry, and there are many courses. Some are already provided at UCD, Waterford Institute of Technology and indeed Ballyhaise College in Cavan. In olden days there was more training. I support what Senator Barrett is saying and I see major opportunities for young people to train and get a job for life

756 9 October 2014 in forestry. We spoke earlier in response to an overview of where the forestry industry is going and the potential there. We need trained people and people who are good to go out and advise landowners. One of the issues that needs to be addressed by everybody is the change whereby landowners go from dairy or beef into forestry. They need assurances from trained people with knowledge of the business. There is a lack of knowledge among many of those involved. Re- cently, I attended an open day event organised by Teagasc in west Limerick and was amazed that people came to me to say they did not know about certain aspects. They had questions to ask and much information was given. As people must be trained, there are huge opportunities in that regard. I, therefore, endorse what the Senator said. It is potentially a matter for the Minister for Education and Skills.

09/10/2014U00200Senator Sean D. Barrett: I am indebted to the Minister of State for his reply.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

09/10/2014U00400Senator Sean D. Barrett: I move amendment No. 36:

In page 32, between lines 13 and 14, to insert the following:

“(6) The Minister shall report to the Oireachtas on the elimination of destructive diseases causing ash dieback and the destruction of forests by the invasive species rhododendron.”.

I thank the Minister of State for participating in the debate today and the last day. We learned a lot, as he did, when his predecessor as Minister of State, the late Shane McEntee, appeared in the Chamber. At the time we were concerned about ash dieback disease. The section deals with invasive species. I am asking that the Minister report to the Oireachtas on the elimination of destructive diseases such as ash dieback disease and the destruction of forests by the invasive species rhododendron, which represents a major threat to all of the work by the Minister of State and his predecessors. My botanical friends are seriously concerned that the ash could disappear as the elm did before it. There is also a serious problem with beech which is invasive in mature native oak woods in many locations such as Laragh, Rathdrum, Killarney National Park and Lismore. There is a major problem in the offing with the lodgepole pine which is invasive in bog and heathland habitats in Connemara and County Mayo. Coillte’s wild Nephin wilderness area contains a large amount of lodgepole pine which is regenerating freely. The rampant rhododendron problem occurs in the national park in County Mayo and Killarney. Senator Paul Coghlan is seriously concerned about it.

The GAA took its eye off the ball and allowed a shortage of ash to develop. The disease was to be found in imported ash from central Europe. We are all trying to develop a forest that is sometimes invaded by the vermin the Minister of State mentioned and sometimes by invasive species that threaten to destroy much of what is of value. This will undo much of the work done in Irish woodlands. Some procedure such as that the late Shane McEntee had brought forward in respect of ash would allow us to see how our native woodlands are faring with the various threats to their continuation in this valuable part of the environment. We need to put in place a mechanism whereby the invaders can be attacked and the House informed of a serious national issue.

09/10/2014U00500Deputy Tom Hayes: I have no difficulty in discussing these issues, particularly ash dieback, with Members of the Oireachtas. I have had many meetings with a range of stakeholders and do so at any time I am requested to ensure people are informed. This applies to those who 757 Seanad Éireann own the woods and those who are worried about them. The GAA also has concerns about the future and the amount that could be diseased in the coming years. These worries are ongoing and I make myself available at all times. However, it is necessary to provide for such reporting in primary legislation. The forest service wants to give information on this disease which is a major worry.

09/10/2014U00600Senator Sean D. Barrett: I profusely thank the Minister of State.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Section 30 agreed to.

NEW SECTION

09/10/2014U01000Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I move amendment No. 37:

In page 33, between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following:

“31. Provision shall be made for a review of the Forestry Act 1988 to redefine Coillte objectives and operations.”.

The Minister of State is aware of where we are coming from. This is to affirm the status of Coillte because of the fears raised about the possibility of a merger, particularly by the union IMPACT. The Coillte branch of the union has made representations to the Oireachtas committee. The union has expressed the view that the merger of Bord na Móna and Coillte could leave the State forestry company as a small and relatively weak voice within a much larger company focused on energy production. There was a fear that the rebalancing of company priorities, following a merger, would be likely to divert wood to energy use rather than maintaining its most economic advantageous use. This clearly would seriously weaken the economic base of Coillte. The fear is that its focus and raison d’être as a forestry company could be affected. With speculation, it is important to affirm its status while the Bill is going through the House. This would redefine the objective and operations.

09/10/2014U01100Deputy Tom Hayes: As I said when I introduced the Forestry Bill 2013 to Members on Second Stage in the Dáil and as I explained on Committee Stage, the purpose of the Bill is to reform and update the legislative framework for forestry. It is intended to support the development of a modern forest sector which operates in accordance with good forest practice and with a view to protection of the environment. The Bill is about forestry and good forest practice. I emphasise that it is not about Coillte. Its provisions are applicable to both public and private forest owners.

The Government decided in June 2013 that an analysis be undertaken of a merger of Coillte and Bord na Móna. It decided on 24 June 2014, on the basis of an in-depth analysis undertaken by NewERA and the relevant Departments with an input from both companies, that both companies should work towards a partial merger of their businesses, focusing on the areas in which there was an overlap between the two companies. A joint venture between the two companies will, accordingly, be formed to manage their common business activities in biomass, wind energy, shared services, and recreation and tourism. My colleagues, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, considered the analysis and jointly concluded that a partial merger approach to ensure synergy was the best approach at the time and this ap-

758 9 October 2014 proach was subsequently agreed to by the Government.

A restructuring of Coillte, overseen by NewERA and the relevant stakeholder Departments, also formed part of the Government’s decision in June 2013 and I understand proposals in that regard are being worked on. While preliminary work has commenced on implementation of the recent decision on the formation of a joint venture between Coillte and Bord na Mona in the areas mentioned, pending its completion and the outcome of the restructuring of the company, it is premature to state there is a need to review the 1988 Act to redefine Coillte’s objectives and operations. Consequently, I do not agree to the amendment.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 31 agreed to.

SECTION 32

Question proposed: “That section 32 stand part of the Bill.”

09/10/2014V00500Acting Chairman (Senator Tom Sheahan): Senator Barrett has indicated that he is opposed to the section.

09/10/2014V00600Senator Sean D. Barrett: I do not wish to voice my opposition to the section at this time.

09/10/2014V00700Senator Mark Daly: I am sure the Minister of State is aware that there has been only one instance of a licence not being granted. If, however, somebody is going to commit his or her land to forestry for life, he or she will want to have some certainty in respect of the matter. As I understand it, the grounds on which a licence may not be granted relate to the protection of the environment; the ensuring of good forestry practice; the preservation of amenities; public health or safety; protection from flooding; and preservation of water quality. These are pretty much all-encompassing in the context of forestry. If a licence is not granted on the basis of the reasons to which I refer, I understand that compensation will not be paid. Perhaps the Minister of State will clarify the position. In light of the fact that there has only been one occasion on which a licence has not been granted - the Minister of State may be aware of other instances - I do not understand why this section is being included in order to cover something which is unlikely to happen. I am of the opinion that the inclusion of the section will create doubt among members of the farming community, particularly if it is the case that someone might object to an area of forestry being cut down because he or she believes it to be an amenity. If a felling licence is refused in such circumstances, the land of the farmer involved will be covered in trees which he may have been hoping to use to fund his pension or develop his farm. He will be stuck with an area of forestry which he cannot fell and in respect of which he cannot maximise the return from his investment. The farmer in question will end up losing money and will not be compensated.

09/10/2014V00800Deputy Tom Hayes: On Committee Stage in the Dáil there was lengthy discussion in respect of the need for the Bill to provide for payment of compensation in circumstances where an application for a felling licence is refused. In light of the concerns expressed, I sought the advice of the Office of the Attorney General. The advice I received was to the effect that there would be a risk of a finding that the provisions of the Bill permitting refusals of licences would be unconstitutional if they failed to provide for compensation. Section 32, for which I received Government approval, gives effect to this legal advice to provide for compensation where it is legally necessary to do so. While the outright refusal of an application for an approval or a 759 Seanad Éireann licence is infrequent, there are, and will continue to be, instances where an approval or a licence may be refused by the Minister, usually for reasons of environmental protection.

It is intended that compensation will be provided through regulations to be made by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the consent of the Minister for Public Ex- penditure and Reform will be required in this regard. The proposed amendment limits the circumstances in which compensation will be payable. In the case of refusal of a felling licence or a forest road licence, compensation will be limited to the depreciation in the value of the trees that is attributable to the deterioration in the quality of the timber as a consequence of the refusal. This is similar to provisions included in Northern Ireland and UK legislation. Restric- tions on the payment of compensation are also listed, including where a licence is refused for environmental reasons. Licences will not be refused without good reason and my Department will endeavour to work with landowners in order to explore all possible options before considering outright refusal. I hope this clarifies the position.

09/10/2014V00900Senator Mark Daly: I thank the Minister of State. He referred to regulations outlining the grounds on which compensation will either be paid or not paid. However, the legislation specifically refers to the grounds on which an official may refuse an application for a licence. As stated earlier, these are the protection of the environment; the ensuring of good forestry practice - which is open to interpretation; the preservation of amenities - An Taisce could decide that an area of forestry is an amenity and should be preserved and could be successful in lobbying accordingly; public health or safety - this has often been used as an excuse for many organisations to do very little; protection from flooding; and preservation of water quality. In the context of the latter and as the Minister of State is aware, soil is often disturbed when trees are being cut down and this can have an effect on watercourses and an impact on water quality. In that context, we are all aware of the ongoing debate with regard to water basins. Every forestry is located close to a stream or some other watercourse, so there is going to be an impact.

The Minister of State indicated that the Attorney General has stated that compensation could be paid. I may be wrong but section 32(6) appears to run contrary to that and indicates that compensation will not be paid if a licence is refused on the basis of the grounds listed. I cannot identify the circumstances in which compensation might be paid because there is little scope for an application to be refused on grounds other than those contained in the subsection. If a licence is refused and even though the Attorney General has indicated otherwise, it would appear that the farmer involved will not be able to seek compensation. I am just trying to save people from being obliged to make trips to the High Court. If section 32(6) could be removed and replaced with a provision which states that the matter will be dealt with by means of regulation, that would be something. When the regulations are drafted, it will not be possible to cater for circumstances where compensation should be paid because the matter will already have been dealt with in primary legislation.

09/10/2014V01000Deputy Tom Hayes: The amendment presented on Report Stage in the Dáil was drafted, reviewed and approved by the Office of the Attorney General and had regard to an examination of existing legislation on the Statute Book and commentary in the High Court in respect of a recent case. We are proceeding on the basis of the legal advice we received.

09/10/2014V01100Senator Mark Daly: The legal advice appears to indicate that compensation might be payable. However, the grounds set out in the Bill are quite specific and pretty much all-encompassing and seem to indicate that the Government will not pay compensation in respect of the refusal of felling licences. I understand that a licence has only ever been refused on one 760 9 October 2014 occasion. Perhaps the Minister of State’s officials will clarify the position and indicate whether we are legislating in respect of something that would be very limited in the context of actual application.

09/10/2014V01200Deputy Tom Hayes: I have checked the position with my officials and they inform me that they are not aware of any case where a licence was refused.

09/10/2014V01300Senator Mark Daly: The information with which I have been provided indicates that there has been one case in the past 60 years.

09/10/2014V01400Deputy Tom Hayes: If the Senator supplies us with the details relating to the relevant case, we will investigate the position.

09/10/2014V01500Senator Mark Daly: We ask that the Minister of State examine the matter. We can always vote against the provision on Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 33 to 37, inclusive, agreed to.

Amendment No. 38 not moved.

Title agreed to.

2 o’clock09/10/201

4W00100Senator Sean D. Barrett: I thank the Minister of State, who has been here for a number of hours, for his patience, his thoroughness and interest in our environmental heritage. He has been most impressive and I thank him for that. I understand he was equally attentive in the Dáil. I assure him his concern for our woodlands is shared by all in this House. We wish him the best in his task.

09/10/2014W00200Deputy Tom Hayes: I thank all Senators for what has been a worthwhile debate. I am aware of the concerns of everybody in the Seanad and the Dáil about trees and the environment. Forestry is a positive sector for our economy and has potential to grow employment and export of timber. Our main challenge is to make landowners comfortable with the idea of planting their land. This will be a significant change for them and this Bill goes a long way towards bringing this about. I thank Senators sincerely, particular those who affirmed and supported the Bill.

Bill reported without amendment.

09/10/2014W00300Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): When is it proposed to take the next Stage?

09/10/2014W00400Senator Hildegarde Naughton: Next Tuesday.

Report Stage ordered for Tuesday, 14 October 2014.

09/10/2014W00600Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): When is it proposed to sit again?

09/10/2014W00700Senator Hildegarde Naughton: At 1.15 p.m. next Tuesday.

761 Seanad Éireann

09/10/2014W00800Adjournment Matters

09/10/2014W00900Local Authority Staff

09/10/2014W01000Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Cof- fey, to the House and thank him for taking these matters on the Adjournment. We have two matters on the Adjournment, but as Senator Daly is not in the House, I will ask Senator Ó Clo- chartaigh to speak first on his issue.

09/10/2014W01100Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: Cuirim céad fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit and thank him for coming in to take this matter on the Adjournment.

This is a sad story concerning a woman named Bríd Cummins, a former journalist who had mental health issues. She fought eviction by Galway City Council from the council house she was living in and was subsequently found dead in her flat the night officials turned up to get back the keys of the house from her.

This issue has also been highlighted by a former employee in the housing section of Galway City Council, in her recently published book, Abuse of Power: Because Councils Can, which also chronicles her own struggles with officials in City Hall. She was tenant liaison officer with the council in September 2003 when she was first asked to accompany a neighbour of Ms Cummins to the offices of the local authority solicitors to help take out an injunction against Ms Cummins. She refused, believing it morally unethical to provide the services of the council’s legal team to a private citizen. She also refused to sign off on a statement made by a former neighbour of Ms Cummins which was to be used in evidence in the council’s eviction case.

The lady in question, Ms Grace, believed the statement was an off-the-record solicited rant from an unreliable witness, made years after she had left the flat, who did not want it used in court. The statement was used to paint a picture of Ms Cummins’ alleged anti-social behaviour. Six months after the first incident, Ms Grace was let go. She had been the council’s first liaison officer, a role she had developed over seven years, and funding was obtained to expand and develop the role and three positions were created.

I have a number of questions on this issue. I raised the issue with the Leader previously and he suggested I raise the matter on the Adjournment. Does the Minister feel he has a role in investigating the issues that have been highlighted in the book regarding the power of CEOs and unelected people in local authorities? This is at the core of this issue. Although Bríd Cummins suffered a sad demise, some of the characters mentioned in the book and in the documents put together in it went on to bigger and better things. One of the people involved has gone on to become the manager and CEO of Sligo County Council. For that reason-----

09/10/2014W01200Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): That person could be identified from what the Senator has said here. The Senator should not identify people in the House.

09/10/2014W01300Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: He is identified publicly in the book. His name is a matter of public record.

09/10/2014W01400Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): He is not here to defend himself, so should not be referred to in the House.

762 9 October 2014

09/10/2014W01500Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: It is important to raise this issue. A former Deputy, now President Michael D. Higgins, stated at the time that he felt there was a need for a full investigation into this case. It is about the way certain executives in city and county councils do their jobs. The CEO in question has given talks at certain public functions on the issue of key leadership attributes. A statement he made in that situation about politicians and the media was that they-----

09/10/2014W01600Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): The Senator must refrain from referring to somebody who is not in the House to defend himself.

09/10/2014W01700Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: It is a matter of record. This book has been published and it is in the public domain.

09/10/2014W01800Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): The person to whom the Senator has referred is not in the House. The Senator knows the rules of the House. Members are not allowed to speak about somebody who is not here to defend himself.

09/10/2014W01900Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: The question relates to the attitudes of CEOs of local authorities towards politicians and their view of how they do their work. They have serious disregard for the way things are done and in their role they have strong powers to make decisions. It is clear from the evidence outlined in documents presented to councillors at Galway City Council in regard to the Bríd Cummins case, for example, that certain officers had strong powers. Some were quite relentless in how they followed through on what they felt were their powers in the case.

09/10/2014W02000Acting Chairman (Senator Pat O’Neill): The Senator should conclude now.

09/10/2014W02100Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I am not sure if the Minister, the Minister of State or their officials have had the chance to go through the evidence presented in the book. If not, I suggest they do so. The evidence is factual and is based on minutes of meetings and corre- spondence and was acquired through FOI requests to the relevant authorities. Bríd Cummins deserves another hearing and her family wants to discover the truth about what happened. They want to ensure that officials in local authorities cannot overstep the mark or hound people out of houses and that we do not see another case like this happen again.

09/10/2014W02200Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Gov- ernment (Deputy Paudie Coffey): I am happy to respond to this Adjournment matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, and to clarify some of the matters raised. This tragic case has been the subject of an inquest. I am certain it has been difficult for all concerned and intend to deal with the issue as sensitively as possible and avoid going into unnecessary detail.

This case concerns the repossession of a social housing dwelling and, as with any such matter, responsibility for action in this instance rested with the housing authority. The repossession was undertaken on foot of a court decision. It would not, therefore, be appropriate for me to comment on the action taken by the housing authority in that regard.

In so far as general provisions and procedures relating to issues concerning the performance of functions by local authority officials may be relevant to the case in question, the position is that local authorities have put in place a multi-stage procedure for dealing with customer complaints, including those relating to the conduct of officials, the first of which is discussing the complaint at the point of service, as it is usually the quickest and most efficient way of address- 763 Seanad Éireann ing the matter. If a complainant is still unhappy with the outcome of the first stage, a formal complaint can be made to the authority’s customer services officer.

If matters have not been resolved following engagement with the local authority, it is, of course, open to a complainant to bring the matter to the attention of the Office of the Ombuds- man. Furthermore, Part 15 of the Local Government Act 2001 provides a legislative basis for the local government service’s ethical framework. It places a statutory duty on “every member and every employee of a local authority and of every member of every committee to maintain proper standards of integrity, conduct and concern for the public interest”. Codes of practice for employees and elected members are underpinned by Part 15 of the Act.

Each local authority has an ethics registrar and any breaches of the ethical framework should be reported to that person. Where an ethics registrar becomes aware of a possible contravention of Part 15 of the 2001 Act by an official, he or she is obliged to bring the matter to the attention of the chief executive, or to the cathaoirleach of the local authority in the case of a contravention by the chief executive. The chief executive or the cathaoirleach is obligated to take action, which may include investigative or disciplinary procedures, referral of the matter to the Director of Public Prosecutions, or any other course of action considered appropriate in the circumstances.

It is appropriate that any complaints regarding the provision of a service or the performance of a function which, it is claimed, is not in accordance with the rules, practice or policy of the organisation or the generally accepted principles of equity and good administrative practice, are first dealt with locally in accordance with an authority’s customer complaints procedures, and that reports of non-compliance with the ethical framework are dealt with as provided for by Part 15 of the 2001 Act.

Responsibility for local authority staff and their conduct rests with the chief executive, who in turn is accountable to the elected members for the performance of executive functions to implement council policy. It is relevant to note in this regard that the governance and oversight role of the elected council has been strengthened in a number of respects by provisions in the Local Government Reform Act 2014.

In the context of the case in question, I have been informed that a detailed report on the matter was presented to the elected members of Galway City Council on 28 February 2005 and was the subject of a lengthy debate in regard to the handling of the case. I understand that the report informed members fully of the details of the case and specifically acknowledged that the actions of officials were open to review by the members of the council. The report was considered by the elected members. The record shows that although it was proposed that “an Independent Re- view of the case be carried out by someone from outside the Authority”, this proposal was not adopted, but the council adopted a motion “that the City Council accept the recommendations set out in the City Manager’s Report” by a margin of ten to four, with one abstention.

Regarding the question of a possible independent investigation in regard to the handling of the matter in question by Galway City Council, the main statutory provisions relating to the holding of local inquiries are contained in sections 83 to 86 of the Local Government Act 1941. These provide for the undertaking of further inquires if it is considered to be warranted. How- ever, in this case, taking particular account of the decision of the elected members of Galway City Council in regard to the report presented to them, the Minister, Deputy Kelly, is of the view that consideration of an independent investigation in accordance with the provisions of sections 764 9 October 2014 83 to 86 of the Local Government Act 1941 is not warranted.

09/10/2014X00200Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh: I thank the Minister of State for the answer on behalf of the senior Minister, but I totally reject that answer. What we see here is the local authority investigating the local authority, when we have had many calls for other organisations in this State not to investigate themselves. I also have evidence that one of the individuals involved in this case has given a leadership talk about how to run local government, in which he stated that, when dealing with difficult cases:

- Identify the ‘Loss’ and structure your argument accordingly

- Keep close to your adversaries

- Focus on the message - not the messenger

- Manipulate the debate

- Have an anchor

- Be Relentless

That was definitely the tactic used in the Bríd Cummins case. I believe it is only fair and right that we have an independent investigation. We need people outside Galway City Council to again take a look at the facts of this case.

The Minister should have a role in this. He should be absolutely clear that something like the Bríd Cummins case can never happen again. Her family deserve closure in this situation. I implore the Minister of State to go back to the senior Minister and say: “Let us stand outside this organisation. Let us make sure that Galway City Council is above question and let us make sure that real justice was done in this case.”

09/10/2014X00300Deputy Paudie Coffey: While I acknowledge the concern the Senator raises, and I know he raises it with good intention, I have to reiterate the view of the Minister, Deputy Kelly, that an independent investigation in accordance with the provisions of sections 83 to 86 of the Lo- cal Government Act 1941 is not warranted in this case. As I said earlier, if matters at any level of complaint have not been resolved satisfactorily with a local authority, it is always open to a complainant to bring the matter to the attention of the Office of the Ombudsman.

The Seanad adjourned at 2.20 p.m until 1.15 p.m. on Tuesday, 14 October 2014.

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