3390 Adjournment. [COUNCIL.] Racing (Finance) Act.

city and it is eminently suitable for the past two and a half years has been: establishment of a university. Land for one of neglect of Ballarat. I think that this purpose could be made available is a little unfortunate. After all, the at a moment's notice. I understand Timkin industry was established at that the Minister of Education is seek­ Ballarat on the recommendation of the· ing a suitable site in Melbourne. Should Premier. Only this Wef'k, I hope the he visit Ballarat to-morrow, a suit­ honorable member for Ballarat North able location would be made avail­ will be joining me in witnessing a able within five minutes of his arrival. country fire brigade demonstration which Why is it that the young people from at my suggestion, is being held at Bal­ country districts should have to come larat. The claim that the Government is to Melbourne to receive a university not interested in Ballarat is unfortunate. education? No part of Victoria serves I assure the honorable member for the great Western District !better than Ballarat North that Ballarat is very the City of Ballarat, which is the leader much in the minds of the members of of all cultural activity in Australia. this Government. I have visited the Those who do not agree with my state­ city on a number of occasions, twice ment should visit Ballarat when they at his personal invitation, and I have would be able either to endorse or to been able to achieve one or two ·things criticize my daim. The establishment on behalf of the city. For that matter, of a university in Ballarat would do I would be pre.pared to visit any -place far more good than erecting such an in­ in Victoria if invited to do so. The stitution at Derrimut or at some other question of the new university is a place on the outskirts of tib.e city. Many matter to be considered in the light of possible sites have been mentioned, the expert Murray report. How­ including the J olimont railway yards. ever, I assure the honorable member Is H the intention of the Government for Ballarat North that his views, to go ahead with :plans for :providing together with those of other honorable the second university 'in .the metro­ members that have been expressed on politan area, or will the Government this subject, will be taken into considera­ investigate the potential of cities such tion by the Premier and the Minister of as Ballarat? Will it simply adopt the Education. attitude that there is an opportunity for building another university here, The motion was agreed to. thereby making a bigger and brighter The House adjourned at 11.28 p.m. Melbourne? Before any finality is reached, the request made to me by the LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. mayor and councillors of the City of Ballarat .should be thoroughly investi­ Wednesday, December 4, 1951. gated. The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager) Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).­ took the chair at 2.20 p.m., and read the ! shall direct the remarks of the honor­ prayer. able member for Ballarat North to the Premier and the Minister of Education. RACING (FINANCE) ACT. However, I remind him that the charter ALLOCATIONS TO RACING CLUBS. in connexion with the new university The Hon. A. J. BAILEY (Melbourne is virtually the Murray report, that being West Province), asked the Minister of the report upon which the Government Transport- has acted. In both the general report and How much has been .paid under the the specific report so far as Victoria provisions of the Racing (Finance) Act was ·concerned, it was recommended that 1956 up to 30th November, 1957-(i) out of the new universHy should be established the Metropolitan Racing Clubs Fund to individual racing clubs; (ii) out of the close to Melbourne. I do not think the Metropolitan Trotting Fund to the Trotting honorable member for Ballarat North Control Board; (iii) out of the Country intended to be political on this question, Racing Clubs Fund to individual racing clubs; (iv) out of the Country Trotting but he referred to a telegram from the Clubs Fund to individual trotting clubs; City of Ballarat in which it is suggested and (v) out of the Dog Racing Clubs Fund that the Government's attitude over the to individual dog racing clubs? Latrobe Valley. [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Education Department. 3391

(b) In relation to (iii), (iv) and (v) (b) Is the Minister aware that eight above, which clubs have not been granted further settlers are to be established in an allocation and for what reason? the same industry at Coromby? Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of (c) Will the Department of Agriculture take steps :to see that the dairy produce Transport).-The information will be of the Horsham district is used as far as obtained and supplied to the honorable ·possible in the district in which it is pro­ member as early as possible. It is a duced? voluminous job, and it will take some (d) Will the Department of Agriculture make representations to the Milk Board to time to prepare the data. ensure that surplus milk from these settle­ The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager). ments is taken to Melbourne by tanker for -Order! The question is .in the posses­ distribution? sion of the House, and I .take it that the The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister answer will be supplied to the House. of Agriculture).-The answers are­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! propose (a) Yes. to supply the answer to the honorable (b) Yes. member during the forthcoming recess, (c) The Department of Agriculture has no power to take steps to see that the dairy and to supply it to the House later. produce of the Horsham district is used as far as possible in the district in which it is LATROBE VALLEY. produced. (d) I will discuss this matter with the OPEN OUTFALL SEWER: COST OF chairman of the Milk Board and advise the CONSTRUCTION: SEEPAGE. honorable member in due course. The Hon. W. 0. FULTON (Gippsland Province) asked the Minister of Trans­ EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. port- TEACHERS OCCUPYING HOUSING (a) What was the total cost of con­ structing the open outfall sewer from COMMISSION HOMES: RENT DEDUCTIONS. Rosedale to the pondage area, and the cost The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne of clearing and fencing the open sewer? North Province) asked the Minister of (b) Have adequate steps been taken to prev:ent any possibility of the sewage Transport- escaping from the pondage into the Gipps­ ( a) Does the Education Department land lakes in the event of heavy rain, or deduct from the salaries of teachers rents through seepage? for the Housing Commission? Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of (b) If such deductions are made, do they have the approval of the teachers who Transport) .-The answers are- happen to be Housing Commission tenants? ( a) Expenditure to date has been (c) Are any such deductions being made £160,455. Some further expenditure will in the face of objection by any member of be incurred on fencing, occupation crossings, the Education Department staff; if so, cross drainage and lands compensation. what are the Government's intentions in The total cost of clearing was £4,336. The regard to the practice? cost of fencing to date has been £26,453. It is estimated that a further £3,500 will Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of be required to complete the fencing. Transport).-The answers are- (b) Yes. Adequate storage has been provided to cope with heavy rain. (a) Yes. Observations from bores put down adjacent (b) It is believed that the arrangement to the disposal area have indicated that no has the approval of all teachers concerned, seepage to the lakes has occurred. except one. (c) As the arrangement which forms part of an agreement with the Housing SOLDIER SETTLEMENT Commission is generally considered to be COMMISSION. in the best interests of the Teaching Ser­ HORSHAM DISTRICT: ESTABLISHMENT OF vice, the Government intends to continue the practice. DAIRYMEN: DISTRIBUTION AND USE OF PRODUCE. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. The Hon. R. W. MACK (Western Pro­ vince) asked the Minister of Agricul­ ORDER OF BUSINESS. ture-- The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel.. (a) Is the Minister aware that the bourne North Province).-! move- Soldier Settlement Commission has estab­ That the consideration of the Orders of lished ex-servicemen as dairymen in the the day, General Business, be postponed Horsham district? until later this day. 3392 K ing-sflreet Bridge [COUNCIL.] Bill.

My purpose in submitting this motion The committee found that congestion is to assist the Government in the rather over the city bridges was so acute that heavy programme of business still on something had to be done to correct the Notice Paper. that state of affairs and that considerable The motion was agreed to. relief could be achieved by the provision of a bridge at King-street. The com­ KING-STREET BRIDGE BILL. mittee reported that the two most suit­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of able sites for a river crossing were Transport) .-I move- at Johnston-street, on the south side That this Bill be now read a second time. of the Spencer-street bridge and at King-street. The general cost of a I am sure that this Bill will meet with tunnel was found to be so great the approval of all honorable members. that it would be better to build a Its purpose is to provide for the requisite bridge at King-street. The committee authorities and the method of payment recommended a low-level bridge at for the bui'lding of the King-street King-street, as it would present no bridge which, as members are aware, is engineering problems, and said that it much required and which has been under should be given priority over other discussion for a number of years. We sites. all realize that the number of vehicles on the roads has increased considerably, A second interim report was issued causing a much heavier volume of in 1956 after a further survey of the traffic generally and that our city streets problem, following submissions by the are therefore becoming more and more chairman of the Country Roads Board congested. The difficulties of transport and other experts who had investigated across the Yarra river have become the question. It became apparent that overwhelming. the original concept of a low-level bridge The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-That is costing £870,000 had more or less been due largely to decentralization. foregone in favour of one of two schemes Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! do not prepared by the Country Roads Board propose to be drawn aside by inter­ after traffic engineering investigations, jections. The concentration of traffic and provision by the Board for grade on the Spencer-street bridge, Queen's separation at both approaches to the bridge and Princes bridge is so well­ proposed bridge. It was considered that known that I do not need to discuss the traffic on either side of the river the matter; members are well aware of would not be hindered by this new the present position. exit from the city. The second interim Proposals· for the construction of an report on the project contained the additional bridge over the Yarra have following recommendation:- been dealt with by a number of com­ 1. That a bridge be built substantially on mittees and in particular an interim the lines recommended by the Country report on the subject was submitted in Roads Board at an estimated cost of 1.954 by the Public Works Committee £3,500,000. after it had fully investigated the ques­ 2. That the cost of construction of the tion. Generally, members will agree bridge and approaches be allocated as that there were many objections to the follows:- proposal. If a crossing was to be pro­ Victorian Government . . 70 per cent. Melbourne City Council . . 25 per cent. vided, it had to be a very expensive South Melbourne City tunnel or a very high bridge. If a low­ Council 5 per cent. level bridge were constructed farther 3. That the maintenance costs of the down the river, it would be necessary to bridge and approaches be on the same do away with the wharves. The alterna­ basis. tive would be a high bridge or an ex­ 4. That the constructing authority for pensive tunnel. Finally, it was proposed the bridge and approaches be the Country Roads Board, and that the Board have that there should be a bridge across the power to call for tenders for the con­ river from King-street into South struction and design thereof both in Aus­ Melbourne. tralia and from overseas. King-street Br·idge [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Bill. 3393

5. That the Country Roads Board be of this clause sets out the special ·powers the authority for the maintenance of the required for the construction work, bridge and approaches. which will prevent people from hinder­ As a result of its deliberations, the com­ ing the construction and taking advan­ mittee also found that, in addition to tage of odd points of law to hold up the the bridge, the provision of an elevated progress of the work for the puripose of roadway above King-street, commencing receiving some inappropriate compensa­ at a suitable point to the north, was tion. It also empowers the Country essential in order to make the fullest Roads Board to divert drains and sewers use of the crossing. This roadway would and temporarily to close roads to traffic. involve a variation in the proposed Sub-dauses (4) and (5) stipulate that design and would enable through traffic in carrying out the work the Country from north to south to pass freely over Roads Board shall do as little damage the river, minimizing city traffic con­ as possible, and shall make compensa­ gestion. Doubtless, members have read tion to all ,parties interested for aH the reports of the Public Works Com­ damage sustained by them through the mittee. In any case it is obvious, I exercise of the powers to which I have think, that this bridge is urgently needed. referred. Sub-clause (6) validates the actions of the Board prior to the com­ In September, 1956, tenders were mencement of this legislation. As honor­ called and they closed on the 28th able members are aware, the Board has January, 1957. The tenders were invited already carried out certain work. This from overseas contractors, and two sub-clause provides also that the pre­ engineers were sent abroad to explain to liminary work shall be included in the possible tenderers the various engineer­ total cost authorized in the Bill. ing aspects about which they would have to be forewarned. Seven tenders Clause 4 incorporates the Lands Com­ in all were obtained. They were pensation Act with this legislation. examined and it was decided to accept Clause 5 empowers the Country Roads the tender of Utah Australia Limited Board to use materials .from the bed or for £2,374,360. This matter received banks of the river, and from any street a great deal of consideration by opened up, for the pul'pose of the con­ Cabinet, the members of which examined struction work. Clause 7 gives the Governor in Council power to declare the tenders and in some cases models part of the fish market area as land re­ that were submitted. We considered also quired in connexion with the bridge, the financial capabilities of the people and on such declaration being made, the who had tendered and the prices quoted, land which is now vested in the City and we made an examination to council wHI be divested from that body ascertain whether the tenderers had and 'become unalienated Crown land. .taken care of silt depths, strength of the Clause 8 provides that the cost of structure, and so on. We looked at constructing the bridge shall be borne the designs to see whether they fitted as follows:- into the general landscape. The tender by the Utah company was the lowest that (a) by the Government of Victoria, conformed strictly to the specifications 65 per cent. laid down. (b) bY, the City 101f Melbourne, 30 per cent. This Bill will authorize the Country (c) by the City of South Melbourne. Roads Board to undertake the necessary 5 per cent. work. It provides for the contributions by the municipalities concerned and it The Government considers that it is will authorize the necessary expenditure making a reasonable contribution to this by the Government from the Loan work if it contributes 65 per cent. of the Fund. Clause 2 contains a description total cost. I think honorable members of the bridge, and clause 3 provides for will agree that the construction of this the bridge to :be constructed by the bridge will benefit the city, which is Country Roads Board. Sub-clause ( 3) becoming so congested with traffic that 3394 King-street Bridge [COUNCrL.] Bill. property values have not increased litate the work of the Government if comensurate with the rate of increase in the debate on this measure, and on other the value of properties in the suburban BHls, could be adjourned until the next areas. There is no doubt that suburban day of meeting. This would enable the business is developing at the expense Government to dispose of the items of city businesses, and this is partly listed for consideration to-day. If the attributable to the traffic congestion in Minister is agreeable to an adjournment the city. of the debate until to-morrow, I assure him that Labour party members will The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-Could the not endeavour to frustrate the business Minister advise how this 'Project will of the House. benefit the City of South Melbourne? Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of Sir ARTHUR W ARNER.-Land Transport).-! agree in principle with values in South Melbourne will be in­ Mr. Galbally's remarks. The Govern­ creased when the project is completed. ment does not wish to " rush through " Furthermore, the bridge will facilitate any of the BHls listed for debate to-day. the movement of traffic between South However, I suggest that Labour party Melbourne and the city, and that, in members agree to a postponement of turn, will enhance the values of busi­ the debate on this Bill, and certain nesses in the area affected. When the other Bills, until later this day, and if 5 per cent. of the total cost payable by there is an opportunity of dealing the City of South Melbourne is divided further with one of them that could up amongst the various landowners, be done. it will not amount to very large indivi­ dual contributions. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I take it that it is intended the House should Sub-clauses (2) and (3) of clause 8 deal with as many other items on the provide for the cost in the first Notice Paper as possible to-day before instance to be met by ,payments from the continuing the debate on this measure. Loan Fund and, as each payment is Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-That is made, the City of Melbourne will become so. liable to pay 30 per cent. thereof, and the City of South Melbourne, 5 per cent. The motion for the adjournment of thereof, with interest at the rate of 5 the debate was agreed to, and the per cent. per annum in respect of the debate was adjourned until later this capital indebtedness outstanding. Clause day. 9 provides for the bridge, or any part of the bridge, to be dedicated as a public WATER SUPPLY LOAN highway when the Board gazettes a APPLICATION BILL. notice that the construction has been The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister completed. On completion, the bridge of Health).-! move- will become a metropolitan !bridge, and That this Bill be now read a second time. responsibility for maintenance work will This is a Bill to authorize the expendi­ rest with the Melbourne and Metro­ ture of £12,000,000 of loan money on politan Board of Works, which is the the construction of water,. ·supply, metropolitan ·road and bridge authority. drainage, sewerage, river improvement The other provisions of the Bill' are and flood protection works, which will purely matters of detail. I have pleasure affect almost every area of the State. in commending the Bill to the House. I feel that country members and mem­ The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN (Mel­ bers representing city provinces will all bourne Province).-! move-- be interested, because the expenditure proposed under this Bill will have so That the debate be now adjourned. much bearing upon the productivity of · The Hon. J. W. GALBAJ_,LY (Mel­ the State. Although approval is sought bourne North Province).-There are for a programme which will cost a great number of Bills listed on £12,000,000, expenditure during the the Notice Paper and it would faci- current financial year will amount to Water Supply Loan [4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Application Bill. 3395 only £7,200,000. A substantial pro­ TOURIST BILL. portion of the total prov1s10n of The Bill was received from the £12,000,000 relates to a rebate of Assembly and, on the motion of the amounts for works authorized last year Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister of and to commitments of contracts, Forests), was read a first time. orders for materials, and so on. Although the big Eildon dam has STATE FORESTS LOAN been completed-it was opened recently APPLICATION BILL. -it is still necessary to provide reticulation from that dam. Provision The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minis­ is made also for payments for land ter of Forests).-I move- compensation and for minor works, That this Bill be now read a second time. including recreational facilities in the This is a Bill to authorize the vicinity of the reservoir. As a result expenditure of loan moneys on works of the additional water available at of a capital nature and the acquisition Eildon, the demands upon the Goulburn of capital assets for the Forests Com­ irrigation system were fully met last m1ss10n. The amount for which year. Furthermore, the Eildon project approval is sought is £970,000, of which has enabled additional electric power to £800,000 will be spent up to the end of be provided. the current financial year, while the The largest single provision in the extra £170,00(J is to enable the Com­ Bill-an amount of £2,200,000-is mission to carry on its operations after required for the enlargement of the 30th June, 19~8. main channels and distributary works The first item, of £25,000, is for the within the Goulburn system. The Bill purchase of land. From time to time, provides also expenditure for works in in order to consolidate its permanently the Nambrok-Denison and Maffra reserved forests, the Forests Commis­ areas, and for work in connexion with sion purchases small parcels of land. the Glenmaggie and Cairn Curran This is necessary also for the construc­ reservoirs. It provides, too, for works tion of access roads and the erection of to be carried out on the Mornington staff dwellings. In the current year, Peninsula and in other parts of the £10,000 will be spent .in acquiring from State. The schedules set out clearly the the State Rivers and Water Supply details of the proposed expenditure, Commission an area of land, in the and it should be unnecessary for me vicinity of the Eildon reservoir, which to enlarge upon the advantages that the Commission proposes to reafforest will accrue from the provision of this and beautify. An additional £1,000 is finance. However, in the Committee set aside for the purchase of similar land in the vicinity of the Glenmaggie stage, I shall be pleased to supply any weir. further information required by honor­ able members. The sum of £160,000 is sought for fire protection works, or £10,000 more On the motion of the Hon. D. P. J. than the amount allocated last year. FERGUSON (South-Western Province), During the period in which the fire the debate was adjourned until later danger is most acute, it is the custom this day. of the Commission to employ extra staff. At this juncture, the Commission is in MARRIAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL. a greatly-improved position to combat fires, compared with the situation in Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of 1939, when disastrous fires swept Transport) presented a message from the through the forest areas of the State. Governor, intimating that, at the Gov­ My Commission is determined that ernment Offices, nn December 3, His such a disaster will not occur again if Excellency had reserved the Marriage it can possibly be avoided. Therefore, (Amendment) Bill for the signification the expenditure proposed on this of Her Majesty's pleasure thereon. account is not only for the payment of 3396 State Forests Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill.

extra man power and the purchase of The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR.-! equipment, but also for the construction agree, but that is a matter for the of access roads, which are of the great­ Commonwealth Government. The road­ est importance in dealing with fires. It ing programme envisaged for this year is intended to increase the number of is in the Howqua and King river water­ dug-outs that the Commission has avail­ shed, in the north-east; and the Connors able for its own officers and for the Plains-Mount Useful district of Central general public. These dug-outs will Gippsland; in the Otway ranges; and in save life in an emergency; in fact, the other distant highland parts of the Commission can guarantee that any State. Although sometimes roads con­ per.sons who reach a dug-out and structed by the Commission are taken comply with instructions will be per­ over .by the Country Roads Board, the fectly safe, even in the worst possible burden of making interest and sinking fire. fund payments on the .original roads Considerable other moneys are spent falls on the Commission, and it is a serious matter. on wireless equipment. Members may not be aware that the Commission has a Item No. 5 relates to the special wave length upon which it can establishment, extension, -improvement operate and the various field officers and protection of plantation of soft­ throughout Victoria can get tn touch woods and hardwoods, for which with headquarters immediately, if £120,000 is to be .spent. This year, the they so desire. There 1.s also a direct Commission intends to extend its line 'between the Comn;iission and the planting of softwoods and hardwoods. Royal Australian Air Force, which co­ In the last few years, it has been forced operates in emergencies. Moreover, the to curtail such plantings owing to the Commission is continuing to provide difficulty of obtaining manpower and water supplies along main roads for the because of the large co.st involved, but benefit of people with tankers and mechanization has helped the Commis­ pumps. Members generally, and sion to continue with softwood especially those representing country plantings. electorates, will be glad to know that this branch of the Commission's The sum of £100,000 i.s to be spent activities has been well looked after. on the construction and purchase of forest officers' quarters, workshops, The third item for which funds are and ·other buildings. As the Commission to be applied relates to improvement penetrates farther afield, it is necessary and development of indigenous state for housing facilities to be ·prov.ided for forests,· including silvicultural work. I the staff and for valuable equipment and emphasize that a great deal of work stores to be suitably protected. In­ mu.st be carried out in the forests. cluded in this item is a sum of £60,000 When regeneration takes place, to be spent at the Creswick School of thinning and pruning must be effected, Forestry on the construction of 40 and development of indigenous State study-bedrooms, which will make the construction of roads for the extraction college one of the best in Australia. of forest produce, the sum of £435,000 is to be applied. Road con­ The last item for which funds are to struction is the greatest burden that the be applied is the .purchase of plant and Commission has to bear, and every year machinery, for which £50,000 is allo­ the position becomes more serious as cated. Of necessity, the Commission the forests are cut over in the nearer must have sufficient costly plant for its area.s. Until they regenerate, the roading operations and various other Commission is forced to go to the works. I have now given a short ex­ higher and more inaccessible areas, planation of the various items of loan and this involves exceptionally heavy expenditure. costs for road construction. On the motion of the Hon. ARTHUR The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON.-Too SMITH (Bendigo Province), the debate much timber is being imported. was adjourned until -later this day. The Hon. G. S. McArthnr. Friendly Societies [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3397

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES reprehensible practice, which, in effect, (AMENDMENT) BILL. makes Parliament merely a rubber The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister stamp. of Health).-! move- The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister That this Bill be now read a second time. of Health).--! fear that Mr. Gal­ bally has chosen an unfortunate This Bill to amend sections 5 and 16 of time to raise his point of order, because the Friendly Societies Act 1928 is a the notes taken by the Hansard reporter simple measure to correct an anomaly will reveal that I used words quite or disadvantage felt by friendly societies different from those contained in the as against insurance companies in notes. I draw attention to my second­ regard to insurance against death reading speech on a previous Bill, which to cover a mortgage. Any co-operative was by no means in the same words as housing society, if it so desires, those appearing in the notes relating to can adopt a rule that every member who the Bill. I glanced down at such notes as borrows money shall take out a ipolicy I have in regard to the Act covering of insurance to cover his indebtedness friendly societies, and I was continuing The maximum amount which may be from there. lent by the societies is £3,000, and under The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager). the Friendly Societies Act-- -I gather that Mr. Cameron says that The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ he was not reading his speech. bourne North Province).-Mr. Presi­ The Hon. E. P. CAMERON.­ dent, it is with some reluctance that I Exactly. rise to take a point of order as to the The PRESIDENT.-! noticed that Mr. reading of a speech by the Minister. I Cameron was referring to notes. Of quote from May's Parliamentary course, there is a difference between re­ Practice, 15th Edition, at page 424 as ferring to notes to refresh one's memory follows:- and reading a speech. Must I not accept A member is not permitted to read his the statement of the Minister that he speech, but may refresh his memory by was not reading his speech? It is a reference to notes. The reading of written speeches, which has been allowed in other perfectly clear, as a matter of Parlia­ deliberative assemblies, has never been mentary practice in this House, that recognized in either House of Parliament. no member-not even a Minister-may read his speech. In a complicated Bill, I think you will agree, Mr. President, particularly one dealing with legal that we have been somewhat indulgent technicalities, a freer reading from with this Government on the question notes is allowed. However, this is a of the reading of speeches, but the time simple Bill and it is difficult to imagine has arrived when we must take a stand. that the Minister would require to read A member is here not as a delegate to his speech on it. I think Mr. Galbally put the point of view of someone else, must rest on the fact that the Minister but to state his own viewpoint. On other denies that he was reading his speech occasions, you, Sir, have rightly objected and was merely referring to notes. to the practice of members reading from newspaper articles and letters; you have The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ pointed out that a member should ex­ bourne North Province).-Of course I press his own point of view. I believe accept the unreserved assurance given that this conduct is particularly repre­ by the Minister that he was not reading hensible in a Minister, who should lead from notes. However, there have been the House 'in observing the very wise many occasions on which Ministers and time-honoured rules of debate. I have slavishly read every line of the believe that the ancient Parliamentary departmental notes. practice of a member giving his own The PRESIDENT.-! think we must thoughts to the Parliament should be wait for the next reading. followed. It is with that in mind, and The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister in order to cherish the Parliamentary of Health). - Co-operative housing tradition, that I rise to object to this societies are empowered to grant 3398 Country Fire Authority [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

maximum loans of £3,000. Insurance heat engines and to make regulations companies, on the one hand, have become to prevent persons from using tractors .interested in this field and have been and other equipment in the vicinity of writing life assurance policies to cover crops or dry grass. Clause 2 of the that amount in connexion with Bill enlarges the definition of heat home finance. On the other hand, engine in order to cover new types of friendly societies have been enabled to diesel tractors and so forth. grant cover to the extent of £1,000 only. This Bill merely rectifies an The Bill aims at protecting farmers anomaly by enabling friendly societies who are careful from the actions of to grant cover to the extent of £3,000. those who are careless. Paragraph (a) Because members are cognizant of the of clause 3 repeals paragraph (a) of work of friendly societies, I am sure sub-section (2) of section 11 of the that I can quite safely commend the Country Fire Authority Act 1952, which Bill to the House. at present relates to the use of heat engines near crops, grass and so forth The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta during the summer period, and para­ Galla Province) .-This short Bill does graph (b) repeals the interpretation of not require even reference by me to heat engines, which is restricted to notes in order to make my speech. I sub-section (2) of section 11, take this opportunity of expressing the interpretation having now been gratitude to the Government for acting inserted in the principal Act. It is the promptly when the friendly societies opinion of the Government and myself indicated the serious anomaly that that this legislation should be passed. results from the limitation placed upon and I ask the House to accept it. their capacity to effect increased insurance cover beyond the limit of On the motion of the Hon. D. P. J. £1,000. A number of friendly societies FERGUSON (South-Western Province), conduct their own co-operative housing the debate was adjourned until later societies, and it was considered that this day. this unfair anomaly should be elimi­ nated. After representations had been made to the Chief Secretary, the situa­ LIQUIFIED PETROLEUM GAS BILL. tion was readily appreciated, and the The message from the Assembly honorable gentleman undertook to in­ relating to the amendment in this Bill troduce this Bill, which is necessary and was taken into consideration. desirable. Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern Transport).-The Legislative Assembly Province).-For the reasons advanced inserted the following new paragraphs by the Minister of Health and by Mr. to follow paragraph (a) of sub-clause Slater, the Country party supports this (1) of clause 5 relating to the making of measure. regulations: - The motion was agreed to. ( ) determining standards of quality for liquified petroleum gas including the fixing The Bill was read a second time, and of minimum and maximum calorific values passed through its remaining stages. of liquifted petroleum gas; ( ) prescribing any matter or thing manufacture and sale of liquified petroleum COUNTRY FIRE AUTHORITY necessary or expedient for prohibiting the gas containing impurities or toxic sub~ (AMENDMENT) BILL. stances. The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minis­ ter of Forests).-! move-- The amendment is exactly the same as that moved by Mr. Machin during the That this Bill ibe now read a second time. Committee stage of the Bill in this The Country Fire Authority was Chamber. Personally, I do not think established by legislation in 1944, and it has any value, but it does no harm. in 1952 amending legislation was enacted Accordingly, I move-- to give the Authority power to deal with That the amendment be a.greed to. Water (Amendment) [ 4 DECEMBER) 1957.J Bill. . 3399

The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN (Mel­ The measure makes provision also in bourne West Province).-! thank the respect of the subdivision of land with Minister of Transport for his generosity, riparian rights. Clause 2 makes it clear and I am pleased to note that the that if a property of 3 acres is sub­ members of another place have seen the divided, each lot owner will not have a wisdom of deliberations in this House. right to receive sufficient water to irri­ I am sure that we, in turn, will profit gate 3 acres. No doubt that from the fact that they have accepted provision has been included in the an amendment which was first intro­ interests of users down stream. It is duced in this Chamber. I consider that somewhat surprising to see the in­ the amendment will improve the Bill. ·creased penalties provided in clause 7 ;

This is a very 1contentious subject. it is a mammoth jump from £5 to £50. Liquified petroleum gas is a dangerous The Minister explained that in the early fuel, and there is technical evidence to part of this century the sum of £5 was prove that it can become a real hazard regarded as an adequate penalty, but it if handled carelessly. Accordingly, we is hard to imagine that values have in­ consider that every aspect' pertaining to creased ten-fold in the interim. Of its use should be treated with the utmost course, the Government -is always ready care. to appreciate the inflationary trend when The motion was agreed to. it comes to inflicting penalties or in­ creased charges, but it did not seem to have the same degree of consideration WATER (AMENDMENT) BILL. for basic wage earners when, disregard­ The debate (adjourned from N ovem­ ing the inflationary trend, it made ber 27) on the motion of the Hon. E. P. workers the subject of a sacrifice by Cameron (Minister of Health) for the abolishing cost-of-living adjustments. second reading of this Bill was re­ The Government continues to increase sumed. charges and penalties in every other respect, but puts up a stout defence The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON (South­ when the Labour party pleads a case western Province).-The Minister, in his on behalf of the workers of this State second-reading speech, stated that the who lost their cost-of-living adjust­ main purpose of this Bill was to provide ments. that the basis of compensation for land, acquired for water purposes, and used Clause 11 will empower the State for channels, and so forth, would be rul­ Rivers and Water Supply Commission ing market value instead of municipal to deal with persons who dump rubbish valuations. I am certain that that basis in water channels. Every decent citizen will be regarded favourably by those will agree that the indiscriminate· dump­ persons who are affected. At this point ing of rubbish and refuse -in water it might be appropriate to mention that channels and on roadsides should be a section of the community believes that prevented. Our party has no objection consideration should be given to the to this provision. However, I hope basis of water charges. In former times, that the Commission will use with municipal rating was considered to be wisdom, discretion and understanding, the most convenient basis on which to the powers that will be conferred upon levy water charges, but it has been it. noted that water charges vary as between municipalities, and on occasions The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ protests have been lodged in that regard. Western Province).-The Country party It seems possible that the differences supports the Bill. The provision with in municipal valuations ,in various respect to what are loosely referred to districts might be reflected in water as riparian rights, is very important. charges. Possibly the time has come Riparian rights are rather difficult to for the adoption of a standard system define. In the State of Victoria the of municipal valuations, under the position in that regard is somewhat control of a valuer-general. However, worse than elsewhere because by legis­ I shall not pursue that aspect. lation those rights have almost been 3400 Water (Amendment) [COUNCIL.] Bill. nullified and wide powers have been becoming contaminated. I have seen conferred upon the State Rivers and children swimming in the channels, Water Supply Commission. However, which are from 25 feet to 30 feet wide. clause 2 deals with the subdivision of land that is subject to water licences or The Commission should take cogniz­ some form of riparian rights. If an ance of the fact that the surrounding area of 3 acres is subdivided, each lot districts are expanding. Although from receives only a portion of the water 30 to 40 years ago they were regarded rights of the total area. Each sub­ as places in the bush so that it was divided portion will not retain the permissible for channels to be con­ original water right pertaining to 3 structed at their outskirts, nowadays, acres. Some years ago it was decided they are thriving communities and that the State Rivers and Water Supply many of them will ultimately become Commission should have far-reaching cities. Consequently, proper steps control over the streams of this State, must be taken to prevent pollution of and we have no objection to the adop­ their water supplies. At Tongala, I tion of that principle. Many battles think, the State Rivers and Water over riparian rights have been fought Supply Commission has actually piped in other parts of the world and, presum­ one of its big channels, but that ably, a similar situation could arise scheme has not been extended. here. It has been held that every lizard The Commission should devote further has a right to a drink of water, consideration to this aspect. By the irrespective of where it .is. In other provision of a relatively small sum from words, access to any stream should not loan funds, the channels could be be denied to people who wish to use it removed right out of the towns con­ to maintain life. That is one of the cerned and the reclaimed land could be essential .factors of riparian rights. sold. Each block would probably yield Clause 8 relates to the requirement from £300 to £1,000, so that the pro­ that waters shall be kept free from position would not be altogether a dead pollution. That is an important pro­ loss. v1s1on. In this State there are Another major amendment relates to substantial towns, such as Swan Hill. the method of assessing compensation through which the State Rivers and payable on land acquired, which is long Water Supply Commission has miles of overdue for revision, The amendment channels flowing. I should like to know will bring the practice into line with who is responsible for keeping those that ·obtaining in other Government channels free from pollution. The Departments. In the past there have township of Swan Hill, with a popu­ been many instances of what I might lation of more than 6,000 people, is at a term legal 'injustices occurring. The lower level than the surrounding Act provides that when land is valued country, and so the channels carry for compensation purposes the better­ drainage water in times of heavy rain ment principle shall be taken into con­ and flooding. I have no doubt that sideration. That means that when a much foreign matter, such as tin cans, channel or 1evee 'bank is constructed the dead cats and so forth, are deposited benefit that is conferred on the land into the channels, and I think it would through which 'it passes shall be taken be a good plan for the Commission to into consideration when the valuation remove those channels. Further along for compensation pu:r.poses is made. As from that town are two substantial a result, often no compensation has been irrigation districts that depend on the paid, but the point is that the owners water in those channels not only for of other land in the district also benefit irrigation but also for domestic pur­ from the works constructed but do not poses. I emphasize that this water, contribute anything towards them. I flowing through a thickly-populated hope the new system, which is to be town, is liable to pollution. Indeed, it based ·on market values, will be satis­ would be difficult to prevent it from factory. On the same basts, the State The Hon. P. T. Byrnes. water (Amendment) [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Bill. 3401

Electricity Commission has rpaid quite five municipalities who has just been reasonable prices for land acquired. elected, Councillor Owen, should con­ The Country party supports the Bill. tinue for the balance of his term as the nominee of the Borough of Sebastopol The Hon. V. 0. DICKIE (Ballarat and the shires of Buninyong and Gren­ Province).-This Bill contains thirteen ville. Therefore, it will be necessary for diverse amendments of the Water Acts. the shires of Ballarat and Bungaree to I wish to discuss clause 5, which relates appoint their nominee should the Bill to the membership of the Ballarat Water be passed by Parliament. The voluntary Commissioners. At present there are work carried ·out by the Ballarat Water eight commissioners. Four are elected Commissioners should receive due com­ by the Ballarat City Council, three are mendation. The term of office of nominated by the Governor in Council, elected members is two years while that and one is elected jointly by the Borough of the nominated members is three of Sebastopol and the four municipalities years. As has already been stated in which adjoin the City of Ballarat, another place, it may be considered at namely, Buninyong, Bungaree, Grenville some future stage that the term of and Ballarat. About eighteen months ago two years could well be extended a deputation from the municipalities sug­ because it takes the gentlemen elected gested to the Minister of Water Supply about one year to feel their way and that, as Ballarat was expanding rapidly, by the time they are of value to the the adjoining municipalities should have Commission their term of office has greater representation on the Ballarat expired. The amendment relating to Water Commissioners. It is proposed the payment of the market value for that the Borough of Sebastopol and the land acquired for channels and other Shires of Buninyong and Grenville shall . purposes is a very important one elect one of the commissioners and because the value of land in irrigation that the Shire of Ballarat and the areas has tended to rise rapidly. Mr. Shire of Bungaree shall elect another Byrnes made an important point con­ member, thus increasing the total cerning the control of pollution. number of commissioner's to nine. That Because of the importance of the indicates the great extent to which thirteen amendments contained in the decentralization is working. Industries Bill, I trust it will have a speedy are moving to Ballarat and a great num­ passage through this House. ber of private residences are being erec­ ted. It is considered that the great The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern knowledge and experience possessed by Province).-! wish to refer to two the outlying municipalities should be clauses in the Bill. Clause 10 relates taken advantage of by the Ballarat to changes in the basis of compensa­ Water Commissioners iin the expenditure tion payable in respect of land of funds on the extension of water and acquired, but no date is specified for sewerage services. the commencement of the application of the new principles. At present the Of the four elected commissioners, one is my colleague, Councillor Gordon State Rivers and Water Supply Com­ Scott, M.L.A., and the other three mission is engaged in what is probably nominated members are the chairman, its greatest activity; it is in process of Councillor Arthur Nicholson, an ex­ acquiring new land for channels. In mayor of the City of Ballarat, Coun­ many cases notices to treat have been cillor W. Roff, who was awarded the served; in others they have not; and C.B.E., in recogn'ition of his great ser­ in some cases compensation has already vices to Ballarat and his wonderful work been agreed upon. My party would in connexion with the rowing on Lake like to know whether the new principles Wendouree during the Olympic Games, will apply to notices to treat already­ and Mr. T. Guye, the son of served or en tries already made where another of my colleagues, Mr. E. F. compensation has not yet been settled. Guye, M.L.A. It has been sug­ We have had discussions with the gested that the representative of the Minister in charge of the Bill, who has 3402 Water (Amendment) (COUNCIL.] Bill. informed us to our great pleasure that if no definite line of demarcation as to he intends, at the Committee stage, to the operations of the new provision is introduce an amendment which will specified. Accordingly, I move- clarify the position. My party wishes That the following new sub-clause be to thank the Minister of Health for the inserted to follow sub-clause (2)- friendly manner in which he received " ( ) The provisions of section two hundred our representations on the clause. and fifty-six of the principal Act as amended by sub-section (1) of this section Clause 14 deals with statutory ease­ shall apply to the assessment of compen­ ments. An easement normally requires a sation for land acquired as a site for dominant tenement and a servient tene­ channels for the conveyance and distri­ bution of water in all cases where the ment-land which benefits from and notice to treat in respect of the acquisition land which suffers the easement. The of such land was served on or after the State Rivers and Water Supply Commis­ first day of January, One thousand nine sion has never had any dominant tene­ hundred and fifty-six." ment or land to which the easement was The amendment was agreed to, and annexed. That has been a problem to the clause, as amended, was adopted, as lawyers for many years and the were the remaining clauses. question was raised in the important case of Armstrong v. the State Rivers The Bill was reported to the House and Water Supply Commissioners with an amendment, and passed heard by Mr. Justice Sholl some years through its remaining stages. ago. It was clearly stated that the so-called easements were not in fact The sitting was suspended at 4.3 p.m. easements at all. Clause 14 will put until 4.30 p. m. the matter in order by declaring that the easements shall henceforth be FORESTS (MOUNT BULLER LEASE) deemed to be true easements. I am BILL. very happy that this somewhat irregular position has been put in The debate (adjourned from November order. 26) on the motion of the Hon. G. S. McArthur (Minister of Forests) for the The motion was agreed to. second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Bill was read a second time and committed. The Hon. G. L. TILLEY (South­ Eastern Province).-The purpose of this Clauses 1 to 9 were agreed to. Bill is to enable the Forests Commission Clause 10 (Principles in awarding to release an area of land at Mount compensation). Buller in order that a hostel may be The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister erected there, and that is a good idea. of Health) .-Clause 10, which amends I visited the area some three years ago section 256 of the principal Act relating with a Parliamentary committee, and I to compensation, provides- was impressed by the initiative shown (1) In section two hundred and fifty­ by ski-ing clubs, which have hostels in six of the principal Act as amended by any that area, and the work of Forras Act the words commencing "Notwithstand­ brothers, who have done much in the ing anything hereinbefore contained " to interests of alpine sports. A committee the end of the section shall be repealed. was appointed in 1948 and a portion of (2) In sub-section (1) of section two hundred and ninety of the principal Act land was set aside in which 49 sites were after the words " shall be constructed " allowed for ski-ing clubs and various there shall be inserted the words " and other organizations to build huts for maintained." their members. It rigidly enforced the As was mentioned by Mr. Feltham, the rule that only a small area was to be al­ Government realizes that there might be lowed each organization. At that time, many cases in which notices to treat Forras brothers wanted to enlarge their have been issued at various times and in holding and to get permission from the which acquisitions are in various stages Commission to build bigger premises so of completion. In those cases there is a that they could accommodate more possibility that injustices might be done guests during the ski-ing season. Forests (Mount Buller [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Lease) Bill. 3403.

At that time, the· Commission was types of accommodation in these adamant that no further land was to be regions. If Victoria is to develop the made available, the reason being that assets of the alpine areas, not only for this was a catchment area and settle­ snow sports, but also for summer visi­ ment was to be rigidly restricted. I was tors, additional ·accommodation must be surprised when the Bill came into the provided. Those who have had close House to see that 8 acres of land were to association with our alpine areas over be leased for the erection of a hostel. the years realize that not only is this However I have been in touch with the place of considerable attraction in the Forests Commission and it is happy winter, but -it is also a pleasant district about the matter. Messrs. Forras in which one can spend ·a quiet week or brothers have done such a wonderful job so in summer. Mount Buffalo is the only there that they should be allowed to ex­ alpine resort in Victoria where there tend. The Bill, however, will not mean is major accommodation,. and as many that they are to obtain a lease of this people enjoy a holiday there in the 8 acres. but, doubtless, they were in­ summer as in the winter. Of ·course, strumental in the measure being sub­ they may be of different types. We find mitted. ski-ing enthusiasts who like to slide It is a big proposition for anyone to down the mountains in the winter, but undertake a venture on which £200,000 visitors of the middle-aged group go to at least must be spent over a period of the alpine resorts during the summer. five years. They certainly will have to It ·is necessary to plan and make do big business to make the proposition provision for the future of these areas. pay and, doubtless, when tenders are I made representations to the Minister called for the lease other people will be of Forests regarding this development interested. If so, they will expect to at Mount Buller,which is in my province, make money out of the proposal. Under and I am pleased that the Forests Com­ the Bill the lessee must spend £40,000 a mission has allowed this land to be made year for five years. That is an under­ available for a hostel. In the early taking which, I consider, will require stages, the Commission naturally was courage, initiative and optimism. reluctant to agree to too much develop­ Comparatively speaking, Mount Buller ment. Mount Buller was the chief area is close to Melbourne, and I know many in which the alpine village experiment young people in the city who travel was conducted. At that stage, it was there on Friday evening, spend the uncertain as to what the outcome would week-end ski-ing, and return to the city be of allowing settlement in these upper ·"m Monday morning. When the new road regions. Ministers and officers in the is built around the Eildon dam, facilita­ Forests Commission and the Lands De­ ting transport to Mount Buller, it will partment have always been reluctant assist young people from the metropolis to allow freehold to be acquired in to reach the snow~elds, there to enjoy these districts, but now they are allow­ alpine sports in the winter months. This ing permanent occupancy--:in this case, should become one of the greatest at­ a lease will be granted. tractions in Victoria and I wish the proposal every success. The structure mentioned in the Bill will not be on the top of the mountain, The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North­ as is an alpine village. It will ·be Eastern Province) .-On behalf of the erected half way to the snowline and Country party, I support the Bill, which that gives it a different perspective. has been brought forward as a result of Mr. Tilley may remember that, in the the development of our alpine areas. As first place, the applications that were one who played a part in the early in­ made were for development further up vestigations to develop these regions, I the mountain. I think members will can say that this is one of the steps that agree that that is not the best locality was suggested to the State Development for major developments of this descrip­ Committee. It was also suggested that tion owing to the transport problem. provision should be made for improved Members of Parliament who have been 3404 Forests (Mount BuUer [COUNCIL.] Lease) Bill.

closely associated with the alpine villages carried out are laid down on a strict realize that visitors who enjoy ski-ing basis as is proposed in this case. In have difficulty in ·gaining access to those this case, the lessee must, within five · areas during heavy snowfalls in winter, years, carry out improvements to the and in planning these places attention value of at least £200,000. That is a must be paid to the possibility of access. large project in an isolated area. The In this case, that responsibiliity has been fittings, furnishings, and so on, must be accepted because the building will be in up to the stanuard prescribed, and a position where access by means of accommodation must be provided for· not snow .ploughing will not be a great less than 100 guests. The amount of the problem; that is a wise move. One of rental will be determined on a specific the ma'in difficulties is the snow plough­ basis, and, at the expiration of the lease, ing of the access roads. the land, together with all buildings, A programme has been put forward structures, fittings, improvements, and from time to time to develop Mount so on. will revert to the Crown. I realize Hotham on a similar basis. There used that this is the normal procedure, but to be a Government Chalet there but in this case where the lessee will be now that is owned by a ski club, and developing an isolated area, at great snow ploughing is the greatest difficulty expense, the situation is somewhat that has to be faced. If similar pro­ different. It is conceivable that at the gress is made during ithe next ten years expiration of the lease the site could to that made in the last decade, access be worth £500,000. If that were so, to these areas may not .present such a ·the lessee would be in a somewhat problem as that facing skiers to-day. difficult position when the site and improvements thereon reverted to the The Bill lays down the condition Crown. In view of that, there will be under which the Government is prepared some difficulty in inducing a company to to make this land available. I am not undertake a proposition of this sort. supporting or objecting to any provision Furthermore, there is no guarantee of the Bill on behalf of any person or that if the lease is renewed, it will persons, and I cheerfully subscribe to be granted to the original lessee who the position that the whole of this land has developed the area. I discussed must be on the basis of tender from this question with several of my banking the one who will eventually receive the friends to whom I said, " What would lease. The Government must always you do if you were asked to guarantee safeguard that position so that every an overdraft under these conditions? " individual in the State will have an and one of them replied, " I would opportunity to develop Crown land when not give you a cent." Surely there it is made available. I repeat that I am is some justification for prescribing pleased that it is proposed that the that the person who undertakes the tender shall be on a lease basis, for a initial developmental work shall have period of not more than 75 years, and some priority in connexion with the re­ will cover an area of 8 acres. That newal of the lease. Otherwise, many may be considered to be a large area for organizations will consider the risk the development of a hostel, but when associated with the project too great, one realizes what will have to be done and they will not be interested in tender­ in the way of development under the ing for the lease. proposals in the Bill, one must agree that the Government has been wise in Being familiar ·with the difficulties selecting the area of 8 ·acres or encountered by the Victorian Railways thereabouts. Commissioners in conducting the Chalet The term of 75 years was probably at Mount Buffalo, I contend that some double what I had in mind when I sub­ security should be given to the person mitted my proposal. It does not really who undertakes the initial step. Whether matter whether the term is 50 years I am right or wrong in that viewpoint or 75 years so long as the conditions will be decided by this House. How­ under which the development is to be ever, I feel that a prospective tenderer The Hon. I. A. Swinburne. Forests (Mount Buller [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] · Lease) Bill. 3405 would find great difficulty in arriving at A very valuable asset will be erected a reasonable price to submit for the on this site and, in accordance with first lease. His first price would be legal usage, the fee-simple for .the used as a valuation for the future and, buildings themselves will remain with irrespective of the expense incurred in the landlord-the Crown-if the lease providing buildings and other facilities is not extended at the expiration of -it must not be less than £200,000 75 years. At the same time, I remind during the first five years-this money Mr. Swinburne that there is in Vic­ will be lost at the expiration of the toria a system of land tenure which is lease. It would mean that if the build­ not freehold but which can ibe converted ings and fittings cost £300,000 it would into such. For example, there are be necessary to add to that sum the various rights, such as residence area initial tender price, and divide the total rights, and so forth, attaching to by 75, and the resultant figure would persons living in mining areas or have to be" wiped off" each year before adjacent to rivers or streams. Certain the hostel rea1ly started to pay its way. areas have limits attached to them for I ask the Government to consider the the conservation of the mining interests aspects that I have raised. During the of the State. The mining and residential Committee stage the Minister might licences are convertible into freeholds. indicate his willingness at least to give In some cases, they have been contiguous the lessee an option on the renewal of to the banks of a river where mining the lease. has formerly been carried on. I repeat, there is some vagueness about this Bill. The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash Province).-! have listened with interest Sub-clause (1) of clause 3 of this to Mr. Swinburne's observations, and, measure provides- generally speaking, I sympathize with N o lease shall .be granted under this Act him. At the same time, there is a little unless tenders for the lease, including more in this question than Mr. Swinburne plans and specifications for the construc­ tion fitting and furnishing of the hostel indicated. An examination of the Bill and the provision of amenities, have been indicates that there is a certain element invited from prospective lessees by public of vagueness about it. For example, the advertisement on at least two occasions in a newspaper circulating generally through­ Bill does not stipulate what rent shall out Victoria, but nothing in this section be payable for the land, or how the rental shall be construed as requiring acceptance shall be determined. It should be of the highest or any other tender. remembered that the rental will be payable merely for so many broad On the face of it, there appears to be acres-the site contains only the trees a r~asonable attempt to accord interested persons an opportunity of as the natural emblements. Leases are registerable as Crown grants and, to tendering for the lease. In practice, it is not always an economical propo­ that extent, there is a fee-simple fa sition to do so. On occasions in the years of the grant of the land. In past when the authorities have called effect, the lessee will be the absolute owner of the premises and he will have for tenders for leases of this type, they have been unable to secure suit­ all the rights of use and ownership able tenders and, in extreme cases, for a period of 75 years. It is obvious leaseholds have ultimately reverted to that the only body capable of taking the Crown before the expiration of the such a lease with any degree of futurity lease. Having regard to the fact that would be a company or a corporate the land in question will ultlmately body, but before a company would be of a much higher value than at the undertake a lease of this type it would present time, it should not be too much want to know what it would have to to expect that the Bill would be more face. In my view, that is where the ten­ precise and specific. I see a difficulty. der system is objectionable, because it At the expiration of 75 years, the lessee means people bidding against one would have greatly increased the value another for something that may not not merely of his own leasehold, but be of much value. also of the land adjacent thereto, and 3406 Forests (Moun~ Buller [COUNCIL.] Lease) Bill. if he surrenders· his leasehold, he Forests Commission, being involved, might be unable to obtain any suitable will be guided, in the first place as to land in the neighbourhood to continue the terms and conditions of the lease, his undertakings. There are elaborate by the Lands Department. That is the provisions in paragraph ( b) of sub­ practice commonly adopted, for clause (2) of clause 2 for a re-appraisal example, by the Railway Depart­ of rent. In other words, the rent shall ment and other Departments when be considered and reassessed at the end giving Crown leases; and it is of every ten years, and there must not very good and important as a be an increase of more than 20 per practice. I know that as Minister of cent. The rent will not be fixed on Transport, I would often say to my the rental valuation of the land without officers, " Send that matter to the Lands improvements. It will be fixed on the Department and let us see whether it improvements that the lessee has placed will be conforming to the standards upon the site and, of course, on the and principles involved." revenue appearing from the improve­ The standard principles are these: ments. First, the land belongs to the Crown and I would welcome a more precise should remain with it, and there is no statement from the Leader of the House reason why it should be sold if the than has so far been given respecting Crown does not have to do so. In the this measure. What is the anticipation present circumstances the Crown does of the Government? Is there, at the not have to sell the land. It proposes back of its mind, an idea that ultimately to keep it. Let us say that the Crown this lease will be convertible to free­ is putting it to company X, "Here is a hold for purchase by the lessee? Or block of land that you can rent." The will there be any transfer by the company does not have to rent it; it lessee·? Will the lease be transferable does not have to take the risk. It is from one lessee to another? In Part III. purely for the company to decide of the Transfer of Land Act there is ex­ whether it wants to do that and, if it press provision for cases in which such does, it will know exactly the terms transfers are effected. I would suggest and conditions associated with the that when the Bill is under consideration matter. The method adopted is to offer in Committee progress be reported so that a lease. It is usually negotiated by the we may ascertain what, on the one hand, person or company with the Lands De­ we are inviting the prospective lessee partment. As a proper protection, the to encounter and what, on the other, Department, having agreed upon the the Government, proposes to give away. terms and conditions, has then to offer Is there any great asset to be affected the land for tender. It is more or less here, or should the terms of the Bill an advertising and formal procedure to be more precise and specific? ensure that nothing is done unless it is Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of done openly. Transport).-! was asked to examine When matters reach that point, it this measure, having had some experi­ A to comply with the precise con­ ence with leases of this kind. I think very often is not possible for company there is almost a complete misunder­ ditions; so what happens is that the standing of the Bill. First, the land in Crown negotiates with company X and question belongs to the Crown. There­ says, "You may take a lease of this fore, there is nothing that the Crown property provided you enter into a should· do to give away its undoubted covenant to spend a given sum of money rights. The person or company taking within a certain period in accordance a lease will do so under general busi­ with certain plans and specifications," ness conditions because this area is not which have to be put up to the Depart­ being set up for agriculture but as a ment. When it has entered into the business. The normal business method covenant, the particular amount of of dealing with Crown land will be money set forth is deductible for applied. What is usually done in a taxation purposes. So the first advant­ transaction of the type is this: The age which the company gets is a 35 per P,orests (Mount Buller [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Lease) Bill. 3407 cent. reduction in costs. If the pro­ upon those negotiations, and thus it will perty were an ordinary freehold and the be seen that the proposition works out company built on it, the company as a good business deal. would get no deduction from income tax. What usually happens? The Lands In this case, however, the company Department is quite generous in such would get a 35 per cent. truce over a matters. If the ,person interested goes period of 75 years. to the Department and takes out a 75-· The Hon. c. H. BRIDGFORD.-Surely years lease, and if he says, after 40· that is not so in such circumstances. years, " This ·is a very old :building and we are considering alterations and im­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-If the provements to it," the Department will company or person concerned were to give him a new lease and will take as a build a brick dwelling on a freehold basis the value at that date. The whole property, there would be no depreciation :proposition would be closely examined whatever. Incidentally, there has been and the lessee would be given a further a great deal of clamour in an effort to lease. So, although -in practice he has obtain that concession. However, the no defined rights which he can insist facts are that the Commonwealth In­ upon, he has an implied right to get a come Tax Act does not provide for any reasonable adjustment over a long deduction in respect of brick dwellings. period-'tha t is, if he ~ants to do some­ A taxpayer can claim such a consider­ thing to his building. ation on, shall we say, sprinklers, Let us assume that after 30 years the boilers and that kind of gear which he company concerned had built over an may put into a building on which he is extent of 4 acres and that it then wanted earning money. But I repeat the con­ to double the size of its building-its cession cannot be obtained in respect. chalet, or whatever it may be. The com­ of bricks. pany would say to the Lands Depart­ My second point is that the Lands ment, "We are prepared to enter into a Department says, in effect; " This further covenant to extend the balance building to-day has a value of £200,000. of our period from 45 years to 7•5 years." We assume that at the end of 75 years The Department would rep'ly, "We will it will have a value of £40,000. ,, Thus enter into a covenant with you. We will the owner of the building is given a take the residual value ·Of the land, the residual value of what you are going to deduction from his rent of an average build and will consider the two added value over the whole of the amount of together. We will spread that over the £40,000, and over the 75 years. So balance of your lease, and you will get there is bought from the owner the all that free of income tax as well as residual value of the property he has obtaining an extension of the lease." erected. Therefore, he receives two ad­ The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-You ob­ vantages. That .is to say, first, he ·gets viously know all this kind of thing back­ the income tax deduction. I feel that I wards, from very long experience. should not be telling honorable mem­ bers this. Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! have had considerable exiperience. The Hon. T. w. BRENNAN.-Oh, what will Mr. Menzies say! The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-" Like Cato of old," you give your "little Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-There is Senate laws and sit attentive to" your this income tax deduction spread over " own applause." 75 years, and then there is the matter Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! have of the residual value of the building. never seen a lease of the kind under The only thing that is lost is what I review, in which the lessee is charged might describe as the inflation, which rent upon his own buildings. If those might otherwise be obtained on the considerations were among the con­ building. So the person negotiating ditions of the lease, nobody would enter knows the conditions before he enters into such a lease. 3408 Forests (Mount Buller [COUNCIL.] Lease) Bill.

The Hon. T. w. BRENNAN.-Is there I am quite sure in this case that the any danger of a peppercorn lease? prospective tenant will obtain a satis­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! do not factory deal if he obtains a lease on the know the value in this instance, but I basis set out in the Bill. I can say from presume it will be fairly low. It might personal experience that bankers will be that in view of the fact that the lend mo.r:i.ey on leases of the type pro­ Crown will have reversionary rights to posed to be given in this instance. the buildings after 40 years, no rent The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-But you at all will be charged. would have had collateral to offer the Mr. BRENNAN.-If no rent is charged, banks. how can 20· per cent. of the land be Sir :ARTHUR WARNER.-One can appraised in ten year's time? deposit these leases and obtain advances. Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-That could After all, one has to have some sort easily be done. Let us assume that the of a reputation to obtain money from land is worth £1,000 a year and the a bank. amortized value of the buildings at the The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-It is not end of the period divided iby 7'5, the so much a matter of reputation but of period of the lease, also works out at the substantial assets which one can £1,000 per annum. Then suppose that offer as security. there is a reduction in the value of money and in ten years' time the land Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-If a person is assessed at £1,500 per annum. If holds a lease over land at South Mel­ one obtains credit for the annual rever­ bourne for 50 years and on it has sionary value of £1,000, then the net erected a building worth £250,000 that annual rent is £500 for the next ten represents good security. years, when the ground rent may be re­ The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-! am assessed. It .is quite a complicated cal­ not contesting that, but it is not the culation but it works out satisfactorily. point at issue. The Lands Department always obtains an increased value for the land and the The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-! tenants certainly receive a good deal. said that at the start of the venture it As . was pointed out by an honorable would not be possible to obtain advances member, the activities of the tenants from a bank. South Melbourne land is also have the effect of increasing the a different proposition from the alpine land values. areas. One can realize that if one examines Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-lt is not the South Melbourne story and I am possible to obtain advances from banks sorry that Mr. Machin is not present. at the start of any proposition. Initially, only annual licences were issued Bankers will not grant overdrafts on and consequently the development there prospects. I do not wish to prolong this was on a tin shed scale as no tenant debate as I am' quite sure that the basis under such circumstances would erect of the lease to be granted will be good buildings on an annual licence satisfactory. basis. As a result, the va'lue of the land The Hon. C. H. BRIDGFORD (South­ itself depreciated. In about 1927, the Eastern Province).-! think the House Lands Department commenced to grant should be informed of the background 21-year leases and much better buildings of the Bill which is designed to improve were erected. fa 1930, the period of the leases was extended to 30 years and at the .facilities provided in our snowfields. a later stage to 75, or 99 years. As the In winter time, the area of land under Department extended the period of the snow in Victoria is greater than that leases, better buildings were erected and in Switzerland, ibut it is largely unde­ when that action was taken the value veloped. From a tourist's point of view, of the land increased. That, in its turn, it has hardly been exploited at all. Up resulted in higher rentals being till now, most of the development in the obtained by the Crown for the land. snowfields has been on a club basis, as FMests.(Mount Buller [4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Lease) Bill. 3409

a result of the activities of a previous anxiously waiting to see what happens Government, and particularly those of when the balance of the period runs out. one Country party memiber. People have The ·problem facing the Government is banded together and have erected small to give longer security to the prospective uncomfortable shelters which have en­ builder and still be fair to the com­ abled them to enjoy snow sports in vary­ munity, and I think the Bill attempts to ing digress of discomfort. It has been achieve that end. Like Mr. Swinburne obvious for some time that there is a and Mr. Brennan, I have grave mis­ market for more comfortable types of givings about the fact that after the ex­ accommodation for people who can piration of 75 years, all the buildings will afford it and for beginners at lower revert to the Crown. I have had private levels of altitude where the difficulties conversations with the Minister of of access are not so great. This Bill Transport and others on this matter and represents an attempt to do that. If I accept the opinion of the Minister that anyone wishes to build a hotel or a the arrangement made is probably the guest house in any other part of the best that could ibe entered into in the in­ State the problem is quite simple. For terests of a prospective builder. Per­ instance, one buys a block of land in, sonally, I would have preferred to see say, Apollo Bay or Sorrento, and erects him given more rights. At the same a building on it. However, there are good time, had another course been adopted it reasons why that cannot be done in the may have jeopardized his right to in­ mountainous areas. The water catch­ come tax deductions unless the lease was ments must be adequately safeguarded granted for a definite and specified and steps taken to see that no fire risks period. are created. It is essential that the Government should have some per­ My only other comment is that al­ manent control over the development in though this Bill deals with one specific those localities. area, the land in question is of no parti­ cular value in itself. It is omy because The Hon. WILIJAM SLATER.-Is any of its curious location that it is of provision made for a rescission of the special use for the purpose envisaged. I lease? A lease of 75 years is virtually do not believe for one moment that the a freehold grant, and I believe that in rental should be high. Any work that such circumstances it is only right that will be undertaken there will help to de­ the Crown should be able to rescind the velop the ski-ing areas of Victoria. I am lease. sure that other people will require The Hon. C. H. BRIDGFORD.-If the authority from the Government to de­ velop other mountains in a similar way, provisions of the lease are violated, and in that connexion this Bill sets an . steps can be taken to terminate it. important precedent which I hope will Sir ARTHUR wARNER.-The lessees be followed. will be subject to the laws of the land in just the same way as anyone else. The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta Galla Province) .-The House is indebted The Hon. C. H. BRIDGFORD.-Up till to the Minister of Transport for the ob­ now, leases of 21 years have been servations he has made. I am in accord granted in the alpine areas, and in most with some of his views, but many cases permissive occupancy has been of his remarks I disagree with entirely. given to clubs. However, when a ven­ I have always been a strong advocate of ture of the size now under consideration the leasehold principle, which has been is at stake, it is clear that permissive whittled away to a large· extent in recent occupancy is of not much use to a pros­ years hy legislative activities of Govern­ pective builder. It is also fairly clear ments. It is futile to suggest that leases that a lease of 21 years would not be of 75 yews or 99 years are not vir1Jually good enough. One person erected a build­ grants of freehold. I assume that in tll.is ing on another mountain at the termina­ case the norm.al and proper procedures tion of the war, twelve years ago, on 21- W1fil 1be followed iby the Lands Depart­ year lease terms. Already he must be ment and tenders will be called for the Session 1956.-140 MI<> F()'l'ests· (Mount Buller . [COUNCIL.] Lease) Bill . leases to be granted. In other words, and I hope at a later date to have placed the matter is not cut and dried for any on record, either in legislative form or particular group or corporation. by resolution of the House, the view that long-term leases of Crown land should be I must correct Mr. Bridgford on one subject to disallowance by either of the point. He assumed that there would be legislative organs of government. I provision made for the rescission or can­ know the argument that will be ad­ cellation of any leases. He rightly vanced against my proposition-that pointed out that we are dealing with an it might prevent people undertaking important area of the State, as our large building projects that will cost water conservation areas are involved. large sums of money. However, my As I understand it, clause 3 of the Bill view is that the Crown lands be­ creates a leasehold in the nature of a long to the people, and therefore we Crown grant. I assume that the Crown should be reluctant to see their aliena­ grant will issue simpliciter-there will tion in any circumstances. If they are be restrictive covenants that will enable alienated by leases, at least there should the Crown to rescind the grant. I notice be provision for their restoration to the Mr. that Feltham is shaking his head un­ people should the land be required by favourably and I refer him to sub-clause the community. (2) of clause 3. Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Does not clause Mr. BRENNAN.-A grant of years only 2 provide for that? is referred to. The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-That The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-That might be the answer to it. I hope· that may be so. I have not had the oppor­ when the lease is ·drawn it will be in tunity of examining the 1954 Act, as I compliance with the provisions of clause entered into this discussion only as a 2. These leases are of tremendous result of some of the remarks made by advantage to the lessees, particularly in Mr. Bridgford. regard to income tax concessions. The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.~It . is rare Surely the rights of the community to find a Crown grant of this nature. should be protected against the rights of the lessees, regardless of the purpose The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-! for which the land is used. have not known of it before, and I do. not think Mr. Feltham_bas. I think the The Hon. C. H. BRIDGFORD.-Does or public i~ not being protected in this in· does not Mr. Slater agree that those stance, and I feel that this is an oppor­ conditions could· be or will be in the tune moment for me to mal:ce some lease? observations about long-ter1I1 leases. There has been considerable 'Publicity The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-!· ,recen.tily in connexion with leases hope that they will be and· I accept the granted to certain interest•s at St. ·Kilda. assurance of the Minister of Transport They have -been granted the right for that they will be. It should be written 60 years to enclose part of the limited into the lease that should the community foreshore in one of the most densely demand the return of this land in order congested areas in. Melbourne. It is not to further safeguard the watershed area, often that I applaud the activities of the the land should be returned to the Herald newspaper, as I am more often Crown. The community interests should against its views than in agreement with not be disregarded in perpetuity. Pro­ them. However, . on this occasion, the vision should be made for the return of H era'ld has taken the correct stand and given publicity to this matter. not only this land but . also other Crown land that is leased when the ap­ The rights of the community .. surely pr~priate occasion arises. should alW1ays override the rights of in-· dividuals, whether they are acting alone Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-That is another or in groups or corporations. I hold subject and would involve the breaking Rtrongly to the views I have ex.pressed, of' leases. · Forests (Mount Buller [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Lea·se) Bill. 3411

The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-That off on the wrong foot. I have not had is so, but I relate my remarks to the the experience of leases that the Minis­ submission of the Minister of Transport. ter of Transport has had. The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager). The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ -Mr. Slater's remarks are relevant bourne North Province).-Can the Min­ only as an illustration of the principle ister of Forests assure the Committee involved. of the position assuming that in the public interests it is necessary to termin­ The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-That ate this lease at some time in the future? is so. I think several misunderstand­ I point out that the land which we have ings have been cleared up. been discussing is in a catchment area The motion was agreed to. and it is conceivable that within the next few years the community may want this The Bill was read a second time and land for one purpose or another. It is committed. Crown land, and before the Committee is asked to agree to this clause I should Clause 1 was agreed to. like to know what safeguards will be Clause 2 (Provision for grant of lease, taken. and term and area thereof). The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minis­ The Bon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minis­ ter of Forests).-! think that aspect is ter of Forests) .-This . Bill was not covered by sub-clause (1) of clause 2 prepared lightly, but in conference with which provides that the Governor in officers of the Lands Department and Council may impose certain terms and the Law Department. The Forests conditions. If the Government of the Commission was determined that this day found that the activities on this site lease would be ·granted only by tender were detrimental to the catchment area, as is the case when logging rights are it could enforce the conditions of the being made available. It is important lease. to maintain the principle of not grant­ The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-That ing rights to individuals without calHng would be futile unless certain conditions for tenders. I am indebted to the were written into the lease. Leader of the House for his clear The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR-The explanation of the point in regard to lease to be granted will be subject to the reversion of the land to the Crown. the provisions of the Bill, which provides Individual members have approached that certain conditions shall be included. me in regard to that aspect and I Doubtless, many other conditions will approached the Minister of Transport, be included together with those that are who has had 30 years' experience of this type of lease. I am sure that the considered to be essential. fears of honorable members in regard The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern to the lease have now been allayed. I Province).-lt is quite clear that there thank honorable members for the is to be a lease and that it will contain observations they made. a number of conditions, as referred to in sub-clauses (1) and (2). Clause The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North­ 4 makes it perfectly clear by implica­ Eastern Province).-! thank the Leader tion that there must be a great number of the House for the explanation that he of conditions in the lease. For instance, has given. I was worried over the it provides that no conditions of the terms and conditions of the ,proposed lease, and I realize now that probably lease shall preclude application being both Mr. Bridgford and I did not fully made for a victualler's licence. Anyone understand what was involved in regard who has seen a Crown lease realizes to the benefits to be received in relation what a busy time one has reading to writing off the investment. The what they contain. The Crown protects objections that I raised were founded itself against every contingency except on the benefits as they are written into being struck by lightning! I think the Bill, but it appears that I started some of Mr. Slater's difficulties arise 3412 Forests (Mount Butler [COUNCIL.] Lease) Bill. out of the provision that the lease because of breaches against the shall be granted as a Crown grant, Licensing Acts, the lease itself would which is commonly regarded as a grant be determined. only of the freehold. It can be of some Sir ARTHUR wARNER. - There is estate less than a freehold. The only nothing like that contained in the Bill. object I can see of incorporating it in the Bill as a Crown grant is to make The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-! do sure that it appears on the transfer not think the doubts I have raised are of land register. dissipated by anything the Minister of Transport has said. The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-The con­ ditions of the lease do not appear on The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ bourne North Province).-The Labour the register. party is not altogether satisfied about The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-The this matter. We are not challenging leases will be registered in the same that under the lease there would be way as any other document and the power to cancel for a breach of con­ original lease will be held in the Titles ditions on the part of the lessee, to Office. which point Mr. Brennan referred. The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-lt need That is not the point at issue. not be registered; there is no obliga­ If the Crown finds it necessary to tion to register it. resume the land, is there power to do so? We do not want to get into a The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-With long legal argument on the matter. If all due respect, clause 3 provides the answer to the question is " No," definitely that any lease granted pursu­ I suggest the clause should be post­ ant to the Bill shall be registered as a poned. Two years ago we had diffi­ Crown grant. There is only one way culty in this very matter. when it was in which to register a Crown grant, desired to resume some properties as namely, to lodge in the Titles Office the part of the scheme for a National original Crown grant, which sets out Art Gallery and Cultural Centre. It all the terms and conditions, and which· was found that the Crown had no is open for inspection by anybody. The power to resume the land. The lessee merely receives his copy. There Opposition does not propose to be would be two other copies as it is fobbed off by a few words that might prepared in triplicate. The lease. can appear in a lease. Would it not be be dealt with only on the register. In possible during the dinner adjournment order to transfer it, the document of for a specimen lease to ·be made avail­ transfer must be lodged in the Titles able to honorable members? In the Office, and notation to that effect will community interest, we should ascertain appear on the lease. The fears quite whether the Crown has power to resume justifiably raised by Mr. Slater on the this land--on just terms, of course-­ question of a Crown grant are really within the period of 75 years should groundless. such action be found necessary. Until The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash the House is informed on that matter, Province).-! wish to refer to the I suggest that progress be· reported. important question of forfeiture. Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of Provision is made in the Bill concern­ Transport) .-Generally speaking, in ing a victualler's licence. Every connexion with leases of this type, if lawyer knows that such a licence con­ the leasehold land is ln an area where tains forfeiture clauses which apply in it is likely to be required for some the event of persistent breaches of the particular purpose, it is customary to Licensing Acts. To reduce it to an insert in the lease a clause that the absurdity, a lessee company or Crown shall have the right of reposses­ nominee could be found guilty of sion under certain conditions. repeated breaches of the law in a short Usually, the purposes for which an space of time and the lease could be area of land under lease may be re­ forfeited. If the licence is forfeited possessed are restricted. For example, Forests (Mount Buller [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Lease) Bill. 3413 it was anticipated that a certain area proper terms. The Minister in charge of land in South Melbourne, with which of the House suggested that we should were associated a number of leases, rely on the commonsense of the Govern­ would be required as a site for another ment or of the departmental officers. railway station. In these circumstances, However, we are not anxious to widen land leased would be subject to the ;gulf between democratic form and repossession when required. There is bureaucratic fact, and that is what will nothing to prevent the Crown from happen H we do not insist on the exact inserting in the lease a clause that terms of the lease being set out in the the land may be repossessed for Bill. I do not suggest that a blanket certain purposes-for water supply, power of resumption should be fire prevention, or anything else. I do authorized but if the Crown finds it not agree with the suggestion that there necessary, in the public interest, to should be a blanket right inserted in repossess the land, this should be the lease whereby repossession would covered in the Bill. be possible at any time. It is a question of including in the lease the terms and The Hon. G. S • .McARTHUR (Minister conditions under which the Crown may of Forests).-This is a simple Bill but, want the land. unfortunately, Mr. Galbally has The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Would endeavoured to impart a little political the Minister be prepared to give an atmosphere into the debate. Mr. Gal­ assurance that such conditions will be bally has asked the question, " Does included in the lease? this Bill make a proper and watertight opportunity for someone to have a lease Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Mr. which the Crown cannot terminate?" Galbally may rest assured that normal In answer to that, I would say, "Yes, commonsense will be used by the I hope it does." In reply to his second departmental officers and that is always question, " Am I prepared to report done. progress in order that a copy of the lease The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-We have may be presented to the House?," I a higher duty than that. say, "No; because no lease as yet has Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-If Mr. been prepared." Galbally's suggestion that there should be certain conditions included in the The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North­ lease were adopted, in all probability, Eastern Province).-! consider that there no-one would be interested in submitting are ample safeguards in this measure a tender for the lease. However, in our to ensure that adequate protection is dealings with the actual lessee, there provided to all concerned. Clause 3 is no reason why certain resumption of the Bill provides that no lease shall rights could not be included. Further­ be granted unless tenders for the lease, more, there is a1ways the last resort including plans and specifications for that tJhe iland could be repossessed the construction, fitting and furnishing under just terms, by means of another of the hostel, and the provision of Act of Parliament. Every lease is sub­ amenities have been invited from ject to that condition. prospective lessees. When it is set out that plans and specifications must be The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ provided, it ·means that all the relevant bourne North Province) .-All honorable information concerning water supply, members are familiar with the sorry drainage, and so on, will be available. story of the alienation of parklands all over the State and, if Parliament has If this information is not forthcoming, one duty more than another, it is to no lease will be granted. Consequently, protect .the people's land. I remind the I do not think there is any need to add Committee of what occurred in further conditions to the lease, which connexion with Debney's paddock. would tend to make it restrictive. If Members of this Chamber have a duty that were done, as the Leader of the to see that when there is any alienation House pointed out, it would be difficult of Crown lands it is permitted only on to arouse interest in the land. 34H Forests.· (Mount Buller [COUNCIL,] Lease) Bill.

The .Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta POLICE OFFENCES (CRUELTY TO Galla Province).-! suggest to the ANIMALS) BILL. Minister of Forests that the position The debate (adjourned from Novem­ mi,ght be met if he would bring to the cognizance of officers of the Commission ber 19) on the motion of the Hon. E. P. the desirability-this view has been ex­ Cameron (Minister of Health) for the pressed on all sides--of great care being second reading of this Bill was resumed. exercised in the drafting of the lease. . The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ Should a resumption be made necessary bourne North Province).-This Bill for public requirements of an urgent has an admirable object-the preven­ character, .perhaps for water conserva­ tion of cruelty to animals. Naturally, any tion purposes or elimination of a fire stated purpose of the kind has our hazard, a safeguard would then be con­ complete sup.port. We abhor cruelty tained in the lease, which could be ter­ in any shape or form, whether it be to minated on just terms. However, it is man or beast. But one can be pardoned unnecessary for this to be written into for doubting the sincerity of the Govern­ the Bill, and I merely submit that the ment when, in reading the Bill,· we find Minister urge his Department to give that there is no provision to prevent a consideration to this viewpoint in ·the cruel and barbarous sport in our com­ preparation of the lease. munity, that of live bird trap shooting. The management of the Trocadero At the appropriate stage I intend to Palais Limited, at Princes bridge, ob­ move an amendment to the Bill to tained a lease of land for 60 or 70 include such a .prohibition. I am years, thus tying up the advancement of supported in that intention by the one of the most vital cultural projects in knowledge that in 1948 the Country Victoria. A similar situation should not party introduced into the Assembly a be allowed to arise under this Bill. I Bill to abolish trap shooting. admit that there is no real analogy be­ tween the Trocadero and the proposed The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-There was chalet at Mount Buller. I appreciate a composite Government then. the work that 'has been done by Mr. Bridgford and others interested in The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Mr. mountain sports, and I would be the last Byrnes can make all the excuses in the person to hinder them .in any way. I world, but that measure was brought in merely ask the Minister of Forests to by Mr. Dodgshun, and this is what he request officers of the Forests Commis­ said- sion to give consideration, in the draft­ The Bill is a small one, of only two ing of the lease, to the possibHity ·of clauses, relating to trap shooting. It pro­ vides for a prohibition ·against the use of resumption of land for vital public galahs. and pigeons in live bird shooting. purposes. I understand that at present the birds mainly ·used in trap shooting are galahs, The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister pigeons, sparrows, and starlings. If this of Forests).-! cannot give an absolute Bill is passed, galahs and pigeons may not in future be used at trap-shooting meetings, undertaking in this matter. Speeches hut sparrows and starlings will be exempt. made by members on this Bill, whether A division has been made, separating the relevant or irrelevant, will be .perused larger birds from the smaller birds. It by officers of my Commission, in the has also been borne in mind that galahs are native birds, but sparrows and starlings usual way, and Mr. Slater's suggestion are pests wherever they are. The main will be recorded for consideration. reason for the exclusion of the use of sparrows and starlings is that when they The clause was agreed to, as were the are hit in the shooting they die almost remaining clauses. immediately. Galahs are hard to kill as The Bill was reported to the House they can carry a lot of shot. This matter came to a climax following without amendment, and passed through a trap shoot held recently at Kerang. I its remaining stages. have before me the police report of that meeting and later I shall read the relevant The sitting was suspended at 6.5 p.m. sections. No Government or responsible until 7.58 p.m. body of men could allow cruelty to be Police Offences (Cruelty to [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] .Animals) Bill. inflicted after attention h:ad been drawn to · Some members who perhaps were not the fact that excessive cruelty was being present in the Chamber to hear me caused. relate what Mr. Dodgshun said about Mr. Dodgshun went on a1: some length the matter, may wonder whether this to condemn what he described as "this particular form of cruelty is still. prac­ cruel sport." The matter appeared to tised within our community. It is, and have received favourable attention from within a few miles of Melbourne each the House. The Minister described in Saturday afternoon at least 500 birds some detail the report of Senior are slaughtered. The method is a Constable Loh who had gone to a galah simple one. The birds are gathered in shoot of the Kerang Gun Club and had nets, traps, and so on, and they are made a report to the Chief Commis­ held in cages or boxes. They are later sioner of Police upon what he had seen. taken out to the premises of the appro­ Mr. Dodgshun read to the House also a priate gun club, where they are kept report from Mr. T. H. Petersen, an in special boxes in which a spring is inspector of the Royal Society (Vic­ released. By this means a bird is torian Branch) for the Protection of ejected into the air. Then a sportsman Animals, who had witnessed a shoot at with a double-barrelled shot gun takes Bendigo. The debate was adjourned aim. I might mention that there is and, despite repeated protests, it never very little risk to the shooter. He is saw the light of day again. I do not in hardly any danger whatsoever. know whether the Country party, hav­ The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-He is no ing regard to the interjection by Mr. more in danger now than he was three Byrnes just now, has changed its .policy years ago, when. a Labour Government on this matter. held office. · The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-It was not The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager). a Country party Government in 1948. -Mr. Galbally has sufficiently indicated It was a composite Government. his amendment and has informed the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-But I House of its subject matter. It is not have such a high regard for the Country in the Bill, so it will have to remain party as to know that, whatever Gov­ until the Bill is being considered in ernment it was hinged to, it would Committee-that is, if the honorable certainly not forsake its principles. member moves his amendment. The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-Was the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-1 think Bill passed in the Assembly? I have taken the matter far enough at this stage. It seems, as you have said, The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-No, Mr. President, more appropriate that we despite the matter being frequently should deal with trap shooting and the raised on the adjournment motion by method by which it is carried out when Mr. Galvin, the then member for the Bill is being considered in Commit­ Bendi,go, and his pleas to have it tee. Of course, no Bill described as brought up again. Since then, I under­ an anti-cruelty-to-animals Bill would stand, it has become Liberal party be complete without an amendment of policy. Mr. Hollway, then Leader of this kind. The measure speaks of the Parliamentary Liberal party, abandoning a domestic animal. pledged his support for the Bill, but The Hon. D. J. WALTERS.-Would you it was never revived. It does seem an, call a bird an animal? appropriate time, when the present Government has taken the step of The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.--:-1 will introducing a measure dealing with leave it to Mr. Walters. to argue, but cruelty to animals, to bring into it the if that is going to be the Country matter that I ·have just raised. It ·party's objection to the Bill I shall be cannot be said that the attention of quite happy. Parliament has not been directed to it . The. Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North· or that we have not had time to con­ Western Province).-So far as I the sider it. second reading of this Bill is concerned, 3416 Police Offences (Cruelty to LCOUNCIL.] Animals) Bill. we are quite prepared to vote for it. The Hon. P. v. FELTHAM.-Betting There may be amendments presented takes place invariably. in Committee, and these will be dis­ cussed when they are submitted. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-1 was attempting to understate rather than The motion was agreed to. overstate the case. I adhere to the ex­ The Bill was read a second time and pression that :betting often takes place. committed. It seems farcical to prohibit a man from Clauses 1 to 3 were agreed to. having a bet on a horse because he is not at the particular racecourse The Bon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ where the horses are running and at bourne North Province).-As indicated the same time to countenance betting in the second-reading stage, I propose at these shoots where hundreds of birds to move for the insertion of the new are slaughtered. It has been said that clause which has been circulated in my it is a sport, but it is not a sport name. For the information of the recognized by the Olympic Federation. Committee, I would point out that sec­ tion 3 of the consolidated Police The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-I did not see Offences Act No. 6062 of this year, golf being played during the Olympic states- Games, either. In this Act, unless inconsistent with the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-We text or subject matter, " animal " includes were very proud of the Olympic events every species of quadruped and every species of bird whether in a natural or that were held here last year. The domestic state. shooting in those events takes place with So there would seem to be no technical clay birds. These sportsmen :say that objection to including the proposed new the shooting of the day bird lacks some clause. If any member is looking for of the e~itement. I wil'l concede that. comfort in the fact that a bird would be It also lacks a good deal of the :blood. excluded from the provisions of this The origin of live-bird trap-shooting is Bill, I -fear that the argument is a hollow not hard to find. Cock-fighting and bull­ one. One of the eviis associated with baiting were abolished in Britain by this so-called sport is the fact that young Act of Parliament in 1835. Cock-fight­ boys are employed to gather in wounded ing had been a very popular sport, birds and despatch them. I am not sug­ attended with a good deal of blood and gesting that the wounded 1birds should betting. not be gathered in, but it seems hardly The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-Gladiators the right kind of education for the youth were abolished about the second century. of our land. U a bird is shot when it is ejected from tile trap, that is the end The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I have of the matter, :but if it is wounded, as not gone back as ifar as that, but I am frequently happens, then it may escape obliged to Mr. Feltham for his research. over the fence or fall close to the trap Bear-baiting and bull-baiting were very and some steps must be taken to popu'lar sports in !England but were sup­ despatch it. This is entrusted to young pressed on account of their cruelty. boys who do the task by hitting the . These sports followed the same pattern. birds over the head. I am not In the bear gardens, which are known criticizing the method, but it does not to have existed since the time of Henry seem right that lads should be per­ II., the bear was tied to a stake by one mitted to do it. hind leg and by the neck and was Another evil associated with the sport worried by dogs. Sunday was the __;honorable members may have noticed favourite day for these sports. Of this I have not :specifically mentioned any sport, Robert Laneham, in 1575, wrote-- gun club because I do not think that .is It was a sport very pleasant to see, to desirable-is that !betting frequently see the bear, with his pink eyes, tearing after his enemies' approach; the nimbleness takes piace at these :shoots, and reports and wait and wait of the dog to take his to that effect !have been made by the advantage and the force and the experi­ police. ence of the bear again to avoid his assaults; Police Offences (Cruelty to [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] .Animals) Bill. 3417 if he were bitten in one :place -how he would long,_ razor sharp :fighting blades tied to pinch in another to get free; hut if he one o,f their legs in place of their natural were taken once, then by what shift with spurs which had long since been removed. biting, with clawing, with roaring, with The first pair, fully armed, were brought tossing and tumbling he would work and back into the ring. Once again they were wind himself from them; and when he was held facing one another so that they were loose to shake his ears twice or thrice with mutually provoked to show their aggres­ the blood and the slaver hanging about his sive spirit by crowing and erecting their .physiognomy. neck plumes. These preliminary displays enabled the crowd to judge the qualities Then he goes' on to describe ibuH-fighting. of the birds and the gamblers shouted bets He says- to one another across the ring. The time­ keeper struck the gong and the fight began. ! went with some friends to see the bear­ The birds met, beak to 1beak, circling one .garden, where COGk-fighting, dog-fighting, another, feathers erect. Crowing fiercely, bear and bull-baiting, it being a famous day they flew into the air, striking murderously for all the butcherly sports, or rather at one another with .their steel spurs, the barbarous cruelties. The bulls did ex­ blades fl.ashing. One of the birds had no ceedingly, but the Irish wolf-dog exceeded, stomach for the fight and kept running which was a tall greyhound, a stately from the ring. Each time the crowd creature indeed, who beat a .cruel mastiff. scattered quickly, for a stray slash from One of the bulls tossed the dog full into the cock's knife can inflict a very sev~re a lady's lap, as she sat in one of the boxes wound on a man as well as a bird. Again at a considerable height from the arena. and· again its owner gingerly recaptured Two poor dogs were killed, and so all it. Eventually a deep black stain, OO\Zing ended with the ape on horseback, and I through the feathers between its wing, most heartily weary of the rude and dirty showed that it had been seriously injured. pastime, which I had not seen, I think, in Again it fled and again it was caught and twenty years before. put back to face its savage attacker. There is not much difference in those So it is in Melbourne of a Saturday so-called sporting events and the afternoon where the so-called sportsman, slaughtering of birds to-day. rt may after placating whatever noble instincts be said that the birds are only pests this sport brings out, returns to his wife and should be destroyed in the same and family and tells them that on that way as rabbits are destroyed, but if that afternoon he shot 500 defenceless birds, is so let them be destroyed :in a !humane and that the blood lay thick upon the way. ground. I trust that this Parliament There can be no analogy between will speedily put an end to this barbarous rabbit trapping and this so-called sport. cruelty. I have pleasure in proposing In connexion with bird shooting, the the following new clause, to follow ·birds are gathered and kept in cages clause3:- and are then released to be shot. I do A. At the end of section sixty-one of the not know whether a bird can think, principal Act there shall be inserted the but can honorable members imagine following sub-section:- the feelings of a poor animal hemmed " (3) (a) Notwithstanding anything In 'in a cage in the darkness and then section sixty-five of this Act no person suddenly being shot out into the air shall- and blown to bits. That is not my idea (i) engage in; or of a sport, and I do not think it is (ii) keep or use any place or premises the idea held by honorable members. for the purpose of- Lest anyone think I have delved too the trap shooting of live birds. far into the past, might I draw attention (b) In this sub-section "trap shooting" means shooting at a bird which to David Attenborough's latest work is released from a box trap cage or other Zoo Quest for a Dragon in which he contrivance used for the holding of a describes a cock-fight which he witnessed bird, or which after being held in captivity is released or projected whether in Bali. This book was published in by mechanical means or by hand." 1957, and in it he states- A dozen men stepped over the screen The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister carrying their birds. After a great deal of Health).-If one had not had experi­ of bouncing and feather fluffing, the birds ence of Mr. Galbally's past performances were paired off and the fighting order decided upon. The ring was cleared and in this House, one would almost believe the birds taken away to have their six inch that he was sincere and that the 341($ Police Offences (Cruelty to [COUNCIL.] Animals) Bill.

Labour party was behind this proposal a Minister of the Crown in previous to a man. If it is, no doubt Labour times, doubtless Mr. Galbally had the party members will voice their opinions opportunity .to put forward legislation as strongly as has Mr. Galbally. This of this des'Cription, but he did not do so. Gover~nt has an more than one That, however, does not affect the issue occasion passed legislation to prevent involved here. If the Committee be­ cruelty to animals, and each of such lieves in the principle that !birds treated Bills has been appreciated by mem­ in this· way should be protected, the bers. Despite certain remarks that amendment should :be adopted. I !be­ have been made about a past Adminis­ lieve Mr. Galbal'ly moved the amendment tration, the Labour party was in power with the highest of motives. If the for at least three years but did nothing Government will give consideration to in. this regard. Possibly that was the principle involved, this pernicious due to the fact that Mr. Galbally was not practice will cease forthwith. then as senior in his party as he is to-day. I am certain that Mr. Galbally will The question of live-bird -trap­ support the Government if it decides to shooting is far reaching and this activity stop a spectacle that occurs every takes place under differing circum­ Saturday night when human beings stances. Mr. Galibally says that it is punch one another almost to uncon­ related to cock-fighting, but I do not sciousness. After such an exhibition the think that comment applies. The same sort of settling takes place that Government will continue to do every­ Mr. Ga'lbally mentioned in regard to thing possible to prevent cruelty to cock-fighting. I refer to what occurs animals, and it is still considering the at the stadium. Blood sports of that question of live-bird trap-shooting. nature arouse instincts that are not in However, it wiil not be stampeded into the best interests of mankind. doing something that has such an obvious political background. For that I ask 1the Committee to consider the reason, :it does not accept the amend­ amendment on .its merits. The proposal ment. is that the Government should accept a new clause to ban a form of cruelty to The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ · birds. When birds are trapped and re­ Western Province).-The amendment is leased in front of the ·guns they are not really a serious proposition and we re­ given the opportunity to escape that is ceived no notice of any intention to move given wild ·game. They cannot protect it. For that reason, we do not think we themselves under the laws of nature. We can discuss it adequately at this sitting. cannot say that a fish hooked on a line In fact, I am not in a position to debate suffers and that fishing is a cruel sport the measure. J: know of the circum­ and theref ore should be prohibited. The stances of the case 'stated in relation fish ·is in its own habitat and in the to a 'former member of tlle Country ordinary course will live or die. When party in the other House, Mr. Keith a bird is shot after being projected in Dodgshun, who was Chief Secretary. In front of the guns of the shooters, I all the circumstance I suggest that agree with Mr. Galbally that there is progress ibe reported. That will permit no sport in that procedure. members of my party to consider the important aspects of this matter. The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-Do you believe in live hare coursing? The Ho.n. E. P. CAMERON (Minister of Hea'lth).-1 agree to that course be­ The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-Yes. A ing adopted. hare is released in its natu:r~al habitat and then is in competition with another The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne animal. When it is chased by grey­ North Province) .-The amendment con­ hounds there is no possibility of its tains a simple principle, and all mem­ escaping in a wounded condition. bers should lbe g.iven an opportunity to However, in this case birds are pro­ consider it. The members of my party are jected in front of the guns of the prepal'ed to support the amendment. As shooters, but that does not ensure that Police Offences (Cruelty to [4 DECEMBER, 1957.] · ilnimals) ·Bill.~... 3419 the death of the birds will be painless. cruelty or sla:ughter, or to have disre­ The . death of animals in . sporting spect for life· whether it be animal or activities should be painless and as human. I am not in favour of sudden as possible, but this alleged inflicting cruelty on rabbits or any sport does not ensure that that will be other animal, but this situation is the case. Many of these birds escape somewhat different. In this case the wounded, and that is where the cruelty birds are caught, caged and then occurs. slaughtered. As Mr. Dodgshun said, The Hon. G. s. MCARTHUR.-Would there are some very cruel rabbit you ban duck shooting and quail trappers, but there are difficulties shooting? involved in dealing with that matter. This is a sport. There must be many The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-A duck instances of cruelty when ducks are has to die at some time, and when it wounded and get away. It is ridiculous is hunted, it is in its natural surround­ for any honorable member to say that ings. There is really no argument be­ he needs time in which to consider the cause birds used .for trap shooting· are amendment. The only question is removed from their natural habitat. whether or not the Government is in They are released in front of the guns favour of cruelty to birds. and have no opportunity to hide them­ The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister selves or find a way out of the situation. of Health).-A number of red herrings The issue is simple and for that reason have been introduced into the debate. we support the amendment. Like Mr. Byrnes, we have not been given an The Bill represents a step towards prevention of cruelty to animals, of opportunity to study the amendment, which there are many glaring examples. but the Government should agree that it should ibe accepted so that we can H the Bill is deferred even the proposed eradicate this blot on our sporting Ufe. forward step will not be taken at this There is no spirit of competition in this stage. Surely Mr. Galbally does not ex­ sport, and clay ibirds could give sports­ pect the Government to be dragooned men just as much excitement as live into doing something for political pur­ poses when already it is determined to birds. This particular form of bird shooting should be banned and therefore continue its examination of the question we support the amendment. of cruelty to animals. The Labour party had three years of office in which to deal The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ with the question. The Committee bourne North Province).-The proposal knows where the Government stands cannot be surprising to any honorable on the matter. Under these circum­ member. Victoria is the only. State stances the Government will not accept which allows live-bird trap--shooting. the amendment. Its abolition is part of the policy of The Hon. R. W. MACK (Western Pro­ both the Country .party and the Liberal vince).-Irrespective of what. may be party. Recently the Chief Secretary the policy of any party, I cannot see announced that the Government pro­ ·the grave dangers of cruelty implied by posed to stamp out this sport by Mr. Galbally. I have been associated legislative action. No honorable mem­ with gun clubs for some time, although ber believes that the Government requires time in which to consider my my shooting has not been particularly proposal. Reporting .progress would be successful. The shoots are organized and controlled. I am not prepared to merely a means of shelving the issue. support the amendment no matter by Let us vote on the matter now. We are whom it is moved. all aware that the gun clubs are powerful, but I trust they will not chalk The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER ('Dou1lta up another victory for privilege to-night. Galla Province) .-This is a good Bill No honorable member can believe in his which will attract the commendation heart that trap shooting 1s not cruel. of the community. What is now pro­ Apart from the slaughter of birds the posed is a simple widening of the young must not be taught to condone measure with the object of reducing the 3420 Police Offences (Cruelty to [COUNCIL.] . Animals) Bill. cruelty associated with trap shooting. is one of the weakest I have ever heard. The Minister of Health has almost The honorable gentleman has not given hysterically suggested that Mr. Gal­ an indication as to whether the Govern­ bally's motive is purely .political. My ment will consider the matter favour­ retort is this: Is not the Government ably or not. I think the Government is acting from political motives in intro­ composed of a number of humbugs. A ducing the measure? All my life I have simpler procedure than that proposed been opposed to cruelty in any shape or could not be advanced in any Parliament. form. I cannot see why either the The Labour party desires a vote to be Country party or the Government should taken on the issue. We will not be be disinclined to take the opportunity fobbed off with a nebulous assurance now presented of taking an effective that the Minister will discuss the matter step against cruelty. This is a desirable with Mr. ~yrnes at a later date. Mr. Bill which could be considerably im­ Byrnes was an influential member of proved by going one step further. It the Cabinet when the 1948 Bill was in­ cannot be suggested for one moment troduced by Mr. Dodgshun. My .proposal that trap shooting is humane. I appeal is exactly the same as the one introduced to honorable members to carry the by the Country party Government. Mr. amendment. Dodgshun explained that he did not The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ think it was necessary to include spar­ Western Province).-It is of no use rows in the relevant provision in the becoming hysterical over the issue. I Bill, as he did not think that it was did not say that my party opposed the cruel if a person shot a sparrow. amendment, but that we required time The Hon. I. A. SWIN'3URNE.-Or in which to consider it. I will not be starlings. stampeded into agreeing to the amend­ ment for political purposes. I know The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am nothing about trap shooting, but have not sure about starlings, but I will engaged in the sport of shooting over a accept Mr. Swinburne's advice. This long period. The measure introduced by matter has been canvassed in the news­ Mr. Dodgshun was not the same as Mr. papers for years and if honorable Galbally's proposal, which is complete members are not prepared to vote on prohibition of trap shooting. It is the issue they will not be prepared to wrong to ask members to vote for some­ vote on anything. think willy nilly in the dying hours of Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of the session. I am prepared to discuss Transport).-On behalf of the Govern­ the matter further if the Minister of ment, I can say that Mr. Galbally is Health will give an undertaking that the certainly correct in saying that this Government is prepared to do so. In matter has been discussed for a long that case I would not ask that progress time. However, if the Council were to he reported. accept this amendment at this stage, The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister bearing in mind that the Bill was of Health).-The Government desires initiated in this Chamber, it might to take the steps embodied in the Bill, possibly lead to the Government placing which represents an advance in the cam­ the measure at the bottom of the Notice paign for the prevention of cruelty to Paper in another place. My suggestion animals. I ·give an assurance that the is that progress should be reported so Government will bring the matter for­ that the Government can consider what ward for discussion at a later date. I it intends to do. wiU not accept the amendment at the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ moment. bourne North Province) .-I would not The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ think there was any danger of losing bourne North Province).-The Minister the Bill as the first three clauses have of Health has given an assurance of already been passed and they comprise some kind to Mr. Byrnes, but his reply the main contents of the Bill. My in ·relation to the proposed amendment amendment in substance is an addition Local Government [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3421 to the Bill. If the Government wants the sweeping of the roads, collection time to consider the position, I shall be of garbage, street construction and a quite happy to adopt the suggestion of few other items. As time passes more the Minister of Transport if he will give and more important functions are me an undertaking that the Bill will allotted to local bodies, and it is true to be considered further to-morrow. say that they have almost the same degree of authority in the community Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of as the Federal and State Governments. Transport) .-I am quite willing to allow Many social servi-ce matters are now the Bill to be brought forward for con­ administered locally and councils are sideration again to-morrow, but that is called upon to handle many of our not the point that I am making. It is traffic problems. true that the first three clauses of the Bill have been assented to and they The Labour party foreshadows its comprise the substance of the measure. intention to move amendments to this However, I emphasize that the Bill has Bill. One or two of them are minor been initiated in this House and if a in nature and the others are concerned clause is added to it in the manner with the policy of our party concerning envisaged, the Government will then Saturday and compulsory voting. We have to consider the position and might believe municipal elections are of such decide to defer the legislation for importance in these days that they further consideration. On the other should be conducted in a manner other hand, if progress is reported, the similar to Federal and State polls. way is left open for the Bill to be Clause 2 of the Bill seeks to amend the further discussed to-morrow. principal Act in some respects to bring voting at municipal elections into line The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister with State elections, and perhaps that of Health).-In those circumstances, I can be taken as an indication that the have no other course to adopt but to Government regards local government ask that progre~ be reported. as of great importance to-day in the Progress was reported. affairs of Victoria. Local governing bodies are being LOCAL GOVERNMENT given more responsibilities in regard (AMENDMENT) BILL. to traffic and are finding it difficult The debate (adjourned from the pre­ to finance their operations. Whenever vious day) on the motion of the Hon. municipalities approach the Govern­ G. L. Chandler (Minister of Agriculture) ment for additional financial assistance for the second reading of this Bill was they are told that the State is handi­ resumed. capped because it cannot obtain sufficient money from the Federal The Hon. G. L. TILLEY (South­ Administration, and therefore there is Eastern Province) .-This Bill seeks to amend the Local Government Act and no more money available for local is the second measure of this nature to government. I consider that the Com­ be considered within a very short monwealth Government should make period. I understand that a consolida­ funds available directly to local tion of the Local Government Act is in governing bodies. In the presidential course of preparation, and it will be report of the Australian Council of welcomed by all associated with munici­ Local Government Associations it was pal councils as the legislation is very stated by Mr. Lines- difficult to follow at the ·moment. It is The Australian Council had accepted as obvious from the many amendments to its primary ,pbjective-the provision of the local government legislation adequate funds for the ever-growing tasks brought forward in recent years that of Local Government. (a) Firstly, the release to Local Govern­ municipal affairs are growing in import­ ment of sufficient money to carry ance. At one stage all that on the day-to-day or continuing municipalities were concerned with were activities of Local Government. 3422 Local Government [COUNCII....] (Amendment) Bill.

(b) Secondly, the provision of loan can exist on the rates levied on money in greater quantity for new properties. Another great loss of projects of an essential character, and · revenue to municipalities to-day is the (c) Thirdly, because the maintenance amount involved in rating exemptions, and construction of roads absorb which is in the vicinity of £100,000. In such a great proportion of Local the October issue of the Australian Government funds, the amplifica­ Municipal Journal it is stated that- tion of the roads grants which now flow from the Commonwealth Some of the institutions for which .through the States to Local exemption is claimed draw heavily on Government. municLpal services directly and indirectly. Apart from gaining the benefit of basic Those are the problems that concern municipal services such as water, sewerage, local government to-day. Mr. Lines streets, and footpaths, establishments such as schools make considerable use of stated. also- libraries, swimming pools, and sports Should Local Government fall down on grounds. They also invariably require its job, there would be a'.n immediate and special traffic ·control measures in the positive reflection d.n the people's health, interest of road safety. When exemption comfort, and general welfare. Local from rating is granted or claimed, the loss Government must continue. But, as we of munkipal revenue throws an extra have said time and time again, Local burden on the remainder of the :ratepayers. Government cannot " go on " unless it is given the wherewithal to carry out its I do not think any member of a council tasks. believes that these institutions should As the Victorian Government cannot pay rates. However, municipalities provide additional money, it is the duty should not have to bear the whole of of the Commonwealth Administration to the cost. I think it is more or l~ss make a special grant to municipalities. accepted by all parties that although Of course, collections from the . petrol the State is short of money the Federal tax are unfairly distributed. I11 the Administration is affluent. Later, dur­ presidential report to which I have ing the Committee stage, I shall have referred, it is stated- something to say -in regard to the clauses and move the amendments that The Commonwealth would make avail­ able for roads, 7 d. per gallon on all petrol I have foreshadowed. consumed, and that the effect of this legis­ lation would be to increase the money so The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ released to £25,500,000 for the year Western Province) .-A Bill dealing 1955-56. Local Government, as you know, with local government is always im­ gets 40 per cent. of these grants, which portant, and this is the second such worked out at £10,000,000. Local Govern­ ment was appreciative of this, but measure considered by this House this emphasized that the need was so great session. It is a great .pity that the that, subject .to the whole of the petrol two Bills were not combined, because tax being released for roads, it should be that would have obviated the necessity increased. Members of council may well then imagine our concern when the Com­ for further consolidation. This measure monwealth Government decided to in­ relates to a variety of subjects, but crease the petrol .tax by 3d. per gallon some of the amendments contained in (£12,000,000), but to release only ld. it are not of great importance. It is <£4,000,000) of the 3d. for roads. Our protest was strong and vigorous, but un­ proposed that councils be given control availing. of .parking. Traffic prdblems are in­ creasing and it is necessary that legis­ Last month a conference of all lation be amended from time to time to municipal associations was held in meet changed circumstances. The Bill Canberra. That conference asked the proposes to increase the ceiling for Federal Government to provide an parking fees ~o 3s. a day, whereas the additional £39,000,000 to enable local present limit is ls. 6d. I take it that governing bodies to carry on their it will not be mandatory for councils to activities. The conference realized that impose the upper limit. They may direct financial assistance by the Com­ charge a lower fee for all-day parking monwealth Government is the only or for even part of a day. If the solution to the problem. The time has amendment -is considered necessary, long passed when local government ·then I shall he happy to support it. The Hon. G. L. Tilley. Local Government [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3423

I am pleased to note that .prov1s1on whom form a quorum. Many of the is to be made to give councils control matters considered by this committee over the .parking of caravans. To-day, are relatively minor and it is proposed there are many caravan .parks in the that in future only three members will community which were :built primarily be .required to form a quorum. That is for the convenience of the ·travelling a wise procedure. The last clause in public. These areas are provided with the Bill relates to the question of the all the necessary amenities and facili­ use of buildings. If the use of a ties for comfortable living, and there­ building is changed, a municipal council, fore many caravans are parked there by the power proposed under this cla.use more or less .permanently. In addition, wm be a!ble to prohibit such use if the one not infrequently sees caravans building is not regarded as suitable for parked on the sides of roads where no that particular purpose. There should facilities are available, and that prac­ be no objection to that proposal. I wish tice needs to be controlled. the Bill a speedy passage. The Bill .proposes to give the councils Thie Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne power in certain circumstances to fprgo North Province).-This Bill could truly rates payable by occupiers of land. I be described as a Committee Bill. It think the councils should go further and covers a variety of subject-matters and agree to write the r.ates off. The it would take many hours for all hon­ present proposal will mean that the orable members to debate the various rates will still remain a charge against clauses in detail. Most of the amend­ the property, and ultimately the owner ments pro.posed to the Local Govern­ will have t'O .pay them. The relief will ment Act, although extensive, are merely be to the temporary occupier. simple and they should receive the full I ask the Minister in charge of the Bill support of all members. I propose to to take a note of that aspect, and I confine my remarks to three specific should like him to give me some more matters, dealing first with local govern­ information on it during the Commiittee ment elections, which are very important stage. in our community. It is necessary that elections should be carried out in a The clauses dealing with the question manner that is entirely beyond of street construction have been ap­ suspicion, and for that reason I support proved by the Municipal Association the contention that the procedure and members of the Country party should be brought into line with that support them. The proposal to permit adopted for Federal and State Parlia­ inspectors of the Country Roads Board mentary elections. However, I do not to use portable weighing machines for regard municipal elections as being as the purpose of weighing vehicles will important in the economic life of the obviate the need for the vehicles in community as trade union ballots, question being taken to the nearest and I am at a loss to understand why weigh-bridge. So long as the portable Mr. Tilley, who contends that local machines used are satisfactory there government elections should be stream­ should be no objection to this proposal. lined with State and Federal Parliamen­ I should like to direct the attention of tary elections, does not agree that trade the Minister of Transport to the fact that union 'ballots should be conducted on the weighbridge situated between Mel­ similar lines. They play a much more bourne and Kyneton is rarely used. A important part in the economy of the brick was thrown through the window country than do the municipalities of the of the weighbridge building recently, but country. Possibly, because Mr. Tilley no attempt has yet been made to repair has not had practical experience of the it. If the weighbridge is not used to a trade union movement, he does not ·great extent, it is difficult to under­ appreciate the 'importance of union stand why it was located there. elections. Certain alterations are proposed to It is proposed also to allow councils the Building Regulations Committee, to regulate the conduct of persons which consists of eight members, five of using any bathing place within the 3424: Local. Government [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

municipal district or within 300 yards local church may be seeking plants to of the boundary thereof, and this power decorate its hall for a church bazaar. is being extended to enable them to All such calls are handled with the control spear fishing. This is a new same expediency, courtesy and prompt form of recreation, particularly amongst attention. Great tact, ingenuity and young people, and it has already caused time is required to handle many of the serious accidents. Even more ~erious problems encountered. Unfortunately, accidents could occur if some form of council employees are a very much control were not exercised over this maligned race-I happen to have been sport. I support that ·particular proposal. one myself. The local municipal em­ I do not :propose to debate the other pro­ ployee is under the gaze of every other visions of the Bill at this stage, and person in the community. Whereas therefore, I trust that the Bill has a other workers may have slack times speedy passage. without being noticed, municipal em­ ployees must work hard at all times, The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN (Mel­ otherwise members of the community bourne West Province).-This Bill pro­ complain that money is being wasted. poses certain amendments to the Local All municipal employees, whether Government Act. Local government is searching in garbage for lost articles, or closer to the life of the people than any going out at week-ends distributing and other . form of government. It is cutting firewood for needy people, per­ administered by a body of people, who form splendid work. have no set political ideas, but who The amendments proposed tP the have one common aim, namely, the Local Government Act, as contained in welfar.e of the •people of the area this Bill, are reasonable, and I com­ which they serve. Generally speaking, mend the Government for acting on councillors play an important part in suggestions that emanated from the life of the community. They devote municipal conferences. When the Bill a good deal of their time to council becomes law, it will help to overcome activities, including attendance at certain problems. The problem of council meetings and meetings of sub­ parking will have to be tackled in the committees. Over the years, the near future. Under new traffic regu­ responsibilities of municipal councils lations, which will come into operation have increased considerably. From the next year, some of the authority will old horse and buggy days, local govern­ be taken away from local councils and ment has now moved into a stream-' parking problems will become more­ lined, fast-moving form of administra­ acute. Already, huge sums of money tion, dealing with such varied matters have been expended on parking signs .. as heavy transport, parking, health, traffic lights, safety lanes, and so on. social activities, welfare centres, Under the new traffic regulations, the creches, kindergartens, playgrounds, by-laws which limit parking to a elderly citizens' clubs, and so on. These reasonable period of time will be by­ added burdens could well be shared by passed and, unless councils desire ta: the State Government. spend additional money on further The health of the community plays parking signs, cars will be able to park no small part in the life of local govern­ where " no parking " notices, erected ment. There are immunization cam­ under their own by-laws, stand at paigns, work at X-ray centres which present. are conducted as part of the anti­ I support the proposal to bring tuberculosis campaign, and so forth, municipal elections into line with State· all of which activities represent an and Federal parliamentary polls. added burden on the community, and When acting as scrutineer, I have found which must be handled by the local ballot papers that indicated clearly the council. The calls on a municipal intention of the voter but, because of council are many and varied. One day the wording of the Local Government assistance may be required because a Act, they had to be treated as informal. cellar has been flooded; shortly after, a It is proposed that in future, where the Local Government [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3425 intention of a voter is clear, the vote menace to traffic in general, and yet the may be recorded to the credit of the municipalities concerned and .the police person concerned. The provision for have been powerless to move them. a stricter control over certain noxious weeds will be welcomed by many The clause which relates to the clear­ persons, particularly those who reside ing of rubbish is timely. On numerous adjacent to a vacant block of land, occasions, people carting rubbish from which weeds have spread to their through cities have spilt some of it. properties. In the past, the practice of the muni­ cipality of which I was an employee has Sub-clause ( 2) of clause 3 proposes an been to send to the persons responsible amendment to section 197 of the prin­ an account for the cost of deaning, cipal Act. The subject matter is the and at times the amount invo'lved has control and regulation of the use of ibeen more than that stated in the premises with a view .to preventing ob­ measure. However, the council has jectionable noises at unreasonable times. "got away with it," although appar­ I should like to :know what is deemed ently it was not entitled to make the to be an unreasonable time. Some com­ charges it imposed. plaints on this account emanate from Footscray, where stone cutting has been Under the proposed new section 29'5 carried on to the great discomfort and of the principal Act, a municipal coundl annoyance of people 'living in houses will have power to remit or defer pay­ near the factories. In one residential ment of rates. This clause refers to a section of Footscray a considerable din problem affecting pensioners and other ensues each night. It may be said that persons in straitened circumstances. if it is customary for a night shift to Some of them, a'lthough living in fair­ work in a particular factory it is reason­ sized properties, have not been able to able for noise to be made at night. I pay their rates when due. It is all very should like this provision improved. well for a person to say that ·the rate may be remitted altogether. Such a Sub-clause (3) of clause 3 provides property might be valued at a fairly that the maximum fee to be charged for large sum, and if the rates were com­ the parking of motor cars may be in­ pletely remitted the :beneficiaries of the creased -from ls. 6d. to 3s. These days estate would reap a rich legacy at the the motorist is a much harassed person, expense of other ratepayers. Many citi­ but traffic has become such an acute zens are not fortunate enough to own problem in a number of municipalities their own houses, but contribute to the that unless some measure of control is revenue of the municipality through the exercised parking problems will !become rent they pay; the rates rpaid iby the more and more acute as time passes. owner are taken into account in assess­ In Committee, I shall propose an amend­ ment of the rent. It would not be ment which, if accepted, will remove a just to remit the rates of indigent people menace that has occurred in many alto.gether, but it would be fair to delay cities, including Footscray, where I live. their payment until the estate was I refer to the leaving of cars in streetS. realized upon. Many of the vehicles in question are "old bombs" which have been !bought Clause 8 seeks to increase the charge under hire purchase agreement for sums to be made by a council for a rate in excess of their true value. The certificate from 2s. 6d. to 5s. In my owners have discovered their error, and opinion the amount could be increased decided to abandon the vehicles in the more. Under clause 9, a municipality street. GeneraUy, when the local will be empowered to apply the authority has contacted the hire­ unexpended balance of loan money for pur~hase firm, it has beeri -informed that purposes other than that for which it t'he responsibility is that of the legal was borrowed. This is a wise provision. owner and not of the company. Motor In future, if the Bill is passed, councils vehicles have been left standing in will merely need to secure the consent streets for unlimited times, causing a of debenture holders and the approval 3426 Local Government [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

of the Governor in Council. A Concerning the by-laws relating to majority of the local councillors must portable weighing devices, I am inclined be agreeable. On occasions, shortage to agree with Mr. Byrnes that a more of material and labour has prevented accurate reading would be obtained the expenditure of certain moneys on from a weighbridge. The location o! works planned at the beginning of the the portable machine on the road and :financial year, but other jobs could well the grade of the road would be blg be carried out, yet no funds have been factors. Clause 21 proposes a new sec­ available for them. Consequently, both tion 803 providing for the making of jobs have languished. I support the regulations with respect to scaffoldi~g. clau~e. This is most important. Building is Another clause sets out the procedure being undertaken to such a degree that to be followed in case of objections to unless there is a committee of experts a scheme of private street construction. prepared to give much time and thought In the past, if four or five persons have to this subject, serious accidents could objected, notices have had to be sent occur. The safety of workers is at all to all the residents affected. Under the times of the greatest importance, and proposed amendment to the legislation, the Government is to be commended it will be necessary to send a second for including this provision. notice only to the objectors. Clause 23 relates to prefabricated The Hon. c. s. GAWITH.-That buildings. This is a worthy clause. In actually happens at present. fact, the whole measure will improve the Local Government Act. We have The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN.-Mr. progressed beyond the horse and buggy Gawith's wisdom may be great, but in days and-just as these amendments are this matter his information is a little brought forward-probably in future misplaced. Probably the Minister in people will be seeking permission from charge of the Bill will inform members the local authorities to use the top of later that notices are sent to all the their homes to hou:se helicopters. The people associated with the scheme, Labour party supports the Bi'll. irrespective of whether they object. The motion was agreed to. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-The Act makes provision to that effect. The Bill was read a second time and The Hon. C. S. GAWITH.-But that is committed. not the procedure that is actually Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. followed. Clause 3 (By-laws). The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN.-If The Hon. G. L. TILLEY (Soutlh­ the Prahran council does not observe Eastern Province).-Thi:s clause deals the Act, other municipalities should not with by-laws and their amendment. be blamed. The council of the muni­ Sub-clause (2) states- cipality in which I reside acts in a proper manner. One scheme given At the end of par:agraph (xi) of sub­ section (1) of section one !hundred and effect to .in the measure will allow ninety-seven of the Principal Act there drainage work to be begun before a shall be inserted the words " including con­ complete :scheme has been commenced. trolling and regulating the use of premises with a view .to .preventing On occasions, a complete private street objectionable noises at unreasonable times." scheme has to be undertaken, but money is available only .for part I move- of the work. It is desirable that That in sub-clause (2) the words "at work on the whole scheme should pro­ unreasonable times " ·be omitted. ceed instead of part of a private street The amendment proposed by the sub­ scheme being undone and later linked up clause as it appears in the Bill is with the work already in existence. excellent in its way. I realize that the This is a sensible provision which will purpose is to give councils power they enable works to be carried out in a do not now possess. In my short term reasonable fashion. as a councillor in Wontha·ggi, I found Local Government [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendm.ent) Bill. 3427

that the council was having difficulty The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-ln the respecting factories, situated in view of some people, such premises residential areas, that were deemed to might be making objectionable noises be making objectionable noises. One in even in the day-time. Your amendment particular that I have in mind was a could .force small factories out of sawmill. The Wonthaggi council business. examined the position at the request of numbers of ratepayers but found that The Hon. G. L. TILLEY.-That is not it had no power to prevent this activity so. The Government is· proposing to from causing objectionable noises. The give councils power, in certain circum­ only thing it could do was to advise stances, to prevent the parking of ratepayers to take civil action. caravans on private property. If such power is given, a council might decide to The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-Was the prevent a citizen from parking a sawmill situated in a zoned residential caravan in his own backyard prior to area, and was there a council by-law leaving on a caravan holiday. The bearing on the matter? Government will be content to leave it to the commonsense of a council to The Hon. G. L. TILLEY.-lt was not exercise the new by-law with discretion a zoned residential area and the council and reason. Similarly, it will be quite could find no power to act. Naturally, reasonable on the part of the Govern­ when a person builds a home in a ment to give councils power to prevent residential area in a country town he objectionable noises. Councils will be expects that that area will continue to capable of exercising their discretion in be residential; he does not expect to be this matter just as they can be expected burdened with objectionable noises at to exercise it over caravans parked in any time. I applaud the Government backyards or elsewhere. for having proposed the amendment contained in this sub-clause, on the The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne advice of the Municipal Association of North Province).-! support the amend­ Victoria. The purpose is to make it ment and agree to some extent with the easy for councils to take action. My views of Mr. Tilley. A noise is either amendment, for the omission of the objectionable or not. If it is, words "at unreasonable times," is it is objectionable at any time. directed at making it still easier for Who is to suggest what is an councils to protect residents against unreasonable time? A time that may objectionable noises. be deemed unreasonable to some people may be quite agreeable to others. Who If the Act is to be amended as sub­ is to define the hours during which a clause (2) provides, it will be necessary noise may be made without becoming for a council to prove that the objection­ objectionable? The mother who cannot able noises are being made at unreason­ get her baby to sleep in the middle of the able times. How is a council to do that? day because of the noise from a factory Many persons who operate small may contend that the time is unreason­ activities in residential areas are called able. A worker on nightshift may also upon at times to work at night as well object that a noise made in the middle as during the day. A small operator of the day when he should be sleeping may be making a noise, say, at eight is objectionable and the time unreason­ o'clock at night or up to 9.30 p.m. The able. A worker on night shift may also local council may complain that his settling such a question? Should a premises are the cause of objectionable council have jurisdiction? If it cannot noises at unreasonable times, but he may class a noise as objectionable, then reply, " I am compelled to continue my everything is all right. If an industrial work for some time at night. I have plant is situated in the metropolitan many orders to complete and I have area and emits a noise which can be only a small staff who are working shown to be objectionable to the rest overtime. It is not unreasonable for of the community, that plant should be us to be working during these hours." ordered to cease. 3428 Local Government [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

Some municipal councils would the two expressions are tied together, be rather sensitive on this sub­ and members are asked to reject the ject, because they see fit to con­ amendment. duct a hot-mix plant next to a hospital. A noise is either objectionable or it is The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ not. On that simple classification the Western Province).-Upon reflection, whole Bill should rest or fall. Once. the Country party is prepared to accept the rider " at unreasonable times " is the Minister's explanation. Up to a added, a perfect means of escape is point, I appreciate Mr. Tilley's argu­ provided for anyone making an ment, and I agree that it is fair that a objectionable noise, because it is im­ council should have discretionary mediately open to argument whether powers, but in my opinion the amend­ the noise is objectionable at a specified ment goes a little beyond discretionary time or not. Persons could be pro­ power. Industries are permitted to duced by one side to say that although exist under the town planning scheme, the noise might be objectionable it was and some factories were in existence not made at an unreasonable time; before houses were built in the vicinity. equally, as many witnesses could be Such industries come under the term found to suggest that the time was un­ " non-conforming users." They are not reasonable. In my opinion, the intro­ allowed to expand, and if they cease duction of the term "at unreasonable operations no other industries can be times " destroys any effectiveness of established on the same sites. It is control over any objectionable noise. I conceivable that their presence might agree with Mr. Tilley and consider that be somewhat objectionable; for in­ those words should be deleted from the stance, a saw bench cutting firewood in Bill; therefore, I support the amend­ a small country town could be in that ment. category. Quite a deal of trouble arises from the operation of saw benches, be­ The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister cause there is nothing more objection­ of Agriculture).-The Government is able than the noise that emanates from not prepared to accept the amendment. their use. If one were operated at This clause has been well thought out, midnight, I should say that it would and the two expressions go together. create an objectionable noise at a most The latter part of sub-clause (2) of unreasonable time. Industries, small or clause 3 is in these words- large, should not be driven out when including controlling and regulating the they are permitted to remain by the use of premises with a view to preventing Town Planning Authority. My party objectionable noises at unreasonable times. supports the Government in this If the words " at unr.easonable times " instance, as this matter has been well are deleted, the way will be open for thought out by municipal councils and the elimination of many small indus­ the Department. tries which have been established in The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN (Mel­ residential areas, in many cases before the residences were built. bourne West Province).-! do not intend to labour the point. It is not The Hon. G. L. TILLEY.-Do you always the case that industries have think a council would do anything about been set up before homes have been those? built in the vicinity, as suggested by The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER.-! do the Minister. There are industries to not know, but this provision safeguards my knowledge that have been estab­ that position. It is reasonable that if lished near existing houses. The an industry was established before noise of cutting stone is most homes were built near it, the least a objectionable, but persons who have council can do is to see that the in­ complained of such a noise have been dustry works at reasonable hours if it told by officers at the town hall that if is making an objectionable noise. they wish the. problem to be dealt with Therefore, the Government believes they must take civil action. Would the Local Govemment [ 4 DECEMBER) 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3429

Minister be good enough to inform the does not believe that is the intention of House what his idea of a "reasonable the Government, which is concerned time" is? with all-day parking. If my amend­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-lt depends on ment is accepted, the law will the circumstances. remain as at present so that the Mel­ bourne City Council can charge ls. 6d. The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN.­ for any portion of a day, whether it is Exactly. If a person was on night shift one hour, half an hour or two hours. the time would be deemed to be not unreasonable. The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-lt would be North Province).-My party is not clear unreasonable if he made a lot of noise. on this amendment, and cannot support it because, in my opinion, it will not The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN.­ achieve the result Mr. Tilley suggests. That is not necessarily the interpretation The whole question hinges on the de­ that could be put on this clause by per­ finition of a ·day. What is a day in the sons in authority. terms of parking motor cars in the city The amendment was negatived. area? If one day is midnight to mid­ night the oouncil would, under the The Bon. G. L. TILLEY (South­ amendment, have the right to charge 3s. Eastern Province) .-Sub-clause ( 3) is a car that was parked from midnight to designed to increase the maximum per­ midnight, and any period of time short of missible· parking fee from ls. 6d. to 3s. that specified in the Bill would be ls. I move-- 6d. If a person parked his car at 9 That sub-clause (3) be omitted with the view of inserting- o'clock in the morning and left it there " ( ) In sub-paragraph (/) of paragraph until 6 o'clock at night, the Melbourne

most concerned in this matter, is en­ .posal of such motor ears -and the imposition of charges for such re­ abled to charge ls. 6d. for any day or moval and disposal." portion of one day. Parking meters The amendment will give councils operate from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. The Act provides that the maximum the coun­ authority to make by-laws under cil may charge is ls. 6d. for a day or any which they will be empowered to remove derelict vehicles which portion of a day. A charge of ls. 6d. can be made for parking a car for one are becoming a problem in ·the hour or two hours. The amendment metropolitan area. Such vehicles are will enable the Melbourne City Council often left ·on the roads, and they become to charge 3s. for all-day parking. I a hazard to traffic and a danger to life. Members of the Police Force and local have had legal advice on the amendment, authorities have been powerless to act and I ask the Committee to accept it. in relation to these vehicles, so I com­ The CHAffiMAN (the Hon. D. J. mend the amendment to .the Committee. Walters).-A by-law of the council must The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ specify what a " day " is supposed to be. Western Province).-The amendment The Hon. G. L. TILLEY.-! under­ appears to be reasonable and doubtless stand that will be necessary. A by-law the Minister will accept it. On behalf of will prescribe the times of parking and the association of owners of cars which the charges to be made. All-day park­ are known as "bombs," I trust that ing in Melbourne now covers the period these vehicles will not be included in this from 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. category. Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Why restrict The Hon. BUCKLEY MACIDN (Mel­ the charge? Why not make it 3s. for bourne West Province).---Having driven one hour -in specified areas? a " bomb " for years, I can say that there is a difference between a car of that The Hon. G. L. TILLEY.-The City description and what can truly be re­ of Melbourne should not have parking garded as a derelict car. meters installed in the heart of the city. The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister The Minister of Transport must know of Agriculture).-The Government ac­ the difficulty that arises especially to cepts the amendment. tramway drivers through parking meters being installed in the centre of The amendment was agreed to, as was the city. If I had my way, I would have a consequential amendment, and the parking meters banned from that area. clause, as amended, was adopted, as were clauses 4 to 8. The lion. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister Clause 9, providing, inter alia­ O'f Agriculture) .-The amendment means Section four hundred and thirty of the that for a whole day's parking in a pre­ principal Act is hereby amended as fol­ scribed area, the authority would be able lows:- to charge 3s., and in other areas there would he a parking charge of ls. 6d. for (b) In sub-section (1) for the words a portion of a day. I believe ithe amend­ commencing " subject to the fol­ ment is in accord with the spirit' of co­ lowing provisions " to the end of operation in whidh the Government has the sub-section there shall be substituted :the words "make an introduced the Bill and it is acceptable. order declaring that all or any The amendment was agreed to. specified part of the unexpended money shall be applied for any The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN (Mel­ purposes for which money may bourne West Province).-! move- legally be :borrowed under the provisions of this Part by the That the following new sub-paragraph council and which are set out in be ~nserted to follow sub-paragraph (g) of the order." paragraph (xxxi) of sub-section (1) of section 197 of the principal Act, as con­ The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister tained in sub-clause (4) :- of Agriculture).-! move- " (h) ·prohibiting or regulating the leaving That in paragraph (b) after the word standing of derelict or unregistered " make " the words " by a resolution motor cars on streets or roods and carried by a majority of the whole number .pr-0viding for the removal and dis- of members of the council" be inserted. Local Government [ 4 DECEMBER} 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 34:31

The amendment, which was suggested in The H<>n. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister the other House, will have the effect of Agriculture).-! understand that the of requiring an absolute majority of a Municipal Association of Victoria has municipal council to approve of a pro­ approved of the proposal embodied in posal relating to the application of the clause. unexpended loan money. The clause was agreed to, as were the The amendment was agreed to, and remaining clauses. the clause, as amended, was ado.pted, as The Hon. G. L. TILLEY (South­ were clauses 10 to 13. Eastern Province) .-I propose the fol­ Clause 14- lowing new clause:- A. In section orie hundred and thirteen In section five hundred ·and eighty-one of the princiipal Act for the expression of the principal Act after the words " as " Thursday or the Saturday next following the council determines " there shall be (as the council determines) " there shall inserted the words "and, so far as relates be substituted the word "Saturday." to rate of interest, the council may from time to time amend its determination and The object of the new clause is to vary the rate but so as not at any time institute compulsory Saturday voting in to exceed the maximum rate aforesaid." municipal elections. It is the policy of The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister the Labour party that the importance of Agriculture).-! move- of council elections should 1be recognized That the words "the maximum rate in this way. aforesaid" be omitted with the view of The Hon. T. H. GRIGG (Bendigo inserting the words:- Province).-On a point of order, Mr. " by more than 1 per centum the rate of interest being paid for ·the time being Chairman, is it competent for such an by the council in respect of the advance amendment to be considered when a or loan." similar one was recently dealt with by Doubt has arisen whether the Govern­ the House? ment's intention is truly expressed in The CHAIRMAN (the H<>n. D. J. the clause. The amendment is designed Walters).-Standing Order 274 states, to clarify the position by ensuring that inter alia- if a reduction in the rate of interest Any amendment may be made to a should take place the 1 per cent. above clause, provided the same ibe relevant to the bor.rowing rate will remain. the subject-matter of the Bill or 1pursuant to an instruction. The amendment was agreed to, and The Committee's sole reference is the the clause, as amended, was adopted, as Bill before it. Each Committee is was clause 15. notionally a separate Committee and Clause 16- has no knowledge of what has trans­ At the end of sub-section (2) of section pired in another Committee on a five hundred ·and ninety of the pdncipal different Bill. Standing Order 99 Act there shall be inserted the words " and provides- the council shall if so requested accept payment thereof by twenty quarterly No question shall be .proposed in the instalments bearing interest, in which case Council which is the same in substance as the provisions of section five :hundred and any question whkh, during the same eighty-one of this Act shall with such session, has been resolved in the affirmative adaptations as are necessary extend and or negative. apply accordingly." The amendment in question is relevant The Hon. G. L. TILLEY (South­ to the subject-matter of the Bill, lbut Eastern Province).-This clause makes is not one which has been resolved in it mandatory for municipal councils to either the affirmative or the negative accept instalment .payments for the con­ by the Council and, therefore, does not structio1n of footpaths and kerbing if a come within the scope of Standing ratepayer requests accordingly. I shall Order 99. Therefore, the amendment not press the point, but consider that is in order. the word " may " should be used in lieu . The Hon. G. L. TILLEY (South­ of "shall," thus giving councils the Eastern Province).-! realize that the option of accepting payment by instal­ Committee might think it is absurd for ments. me to submit an amendment so soon after 3432 Local Government [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. the previous similar amendment was NOES. negatived. However, the Labour party Mr. Bradbury Mr. Mansell will continue to strive •to have local Mr. Bridgford Mr. May government elections placed on a Mr. Byrnes Mr. Swinburne Mr. Cameron Mr. Thompson similar footing to Federal and State Mr. Chandler Sir Arthur Warner. Parliamentary elections. I advanced Mr. Feltham some excellent arguments on this score Mr. Grigg Tellers: a few weeks ago. I thought that per­ Mr. McArthur Mr. Dickie haps on digesting those the Committee Mr. Mack Mr. Gawith. might now decide unanimously to accept my proposal, which is necessary The Hon. G. L. TILLEY (South­ in the interests ·of democracy. Local Eastern Province). - I propose the government is now an important part following new clause:- of our governmental system. People B. For sub-section (3) of section one hundred and forty-nine of the principal should not have to vote when a mem~ Act there shall be substituted the following ber of the family is absent at work. sub-section- If H is necessary to have compulsory "(3) The regulations for the time being voting for Council and Assembly elec­ in force under this section relating to tions, it is just as important to have it compulsory voting shall by force of this Act apply to all elections of councillors in the municipal sphere so that .people for every municipality; and the Governor will take an interest in local govern­ in Council on the petition of the council ment. If honorable members think of any municipality may by order pub­ local government is important they will lished in .the Government Gazette- accept my proposal; if they desire to ( a) apply to election of councillors think in terms of 50 or 100 years ago for that municipality with any modification provided they will reject it. for in such order all or any The Hon. T. H. GRIGG (Bendigo of the regulations relating to Province).-As Mr. Tilley has men­ voting by post made under tioned, local government has advanced; this section; or therefore, councils are more capable of (b) alter or revoke any such making up their minds whether or not order." they wish to have compulsory voting. I do not think there is any need for As a member of the Municipal Associa­ me to speak at length on this proposal tion of Victoria, I oppose the clause. as I have already addressed the Com­ The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister mittee on the need for compulsory of Agriculture).-For .the excellent voting in municipal elections. reasons I advanced in opposition to Mr. Tilley's proposed amendments two The Hon. G. L. CHANDLER (Minister weeks ago, I ask the Committee to reject of Agriculture). - I indicated some the present ·proposal. three weeks ago that compulsory voting The Committee divided on the pro­ could not be enforced in municipal posed new clause (the Hon. D. J. elections. I cited as an illustration a Walters in the chair)- particular municipality where one Ayes 14 third of the ratepayers were absentee Noes 16 voters. In State and Federal elections, electors vote where they reside and the Majority against the provisions of the election are easy to new clause 2 police, but in the case of municipal AYES. elections that supervision is impossible Mr. Brennan Mr. Rawson to achieve. Accordingly, I ask the Mr. Ferguson Mr. Sheehy Committee to reject the proposal. Mr. Galbally Mr. Slater Mr. Jones Mr. Smith The new clause was negatived. (Ballarat) Mr. Tilley. Mr. Jones The Bill was reported to the House

MOTOR CAR (REGISTRATION public transport buses in this city, is FEES) BILL. in evidence. It is purely a matter of the The debate (adjourned from Novem­ maintenance O'f the vehicles. ber 27) on the motion of Sir Arthur Mr. Machin has .pointed out our in­ Warner (Minister of Transport) for the alienable right to fresh air. The Govern­ second reading O'f this Bill was resumed. ment has accepted that principle, and I suggest that the time is ripe· for the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ Government to take action in order that bourne North Province).-This Bill may these dangerous chemical products are be described as a revenue Bill and is not emitted from diesel engines in this made necessary by the Federal Govern­ city. ment's action in putting a tax on diesel fuel. The State Government has now The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North­ decided to place diesel engines on the Eastern Province) .-This is a small same footing as petrol engines so far measure, but all honorable members will as registration is concerned. It might agree it is just. In the past, Victoria be convenient to refer to the provisions has been collecting double registration of section 80 of the principal Act, where­ fees on diesel propelled engines. The by a motor car on a .public highway Federal Government has indicated its which emits an offensive noise or smell intention to impose a tax of ls. per creates an offence. It is common know­ gallon on diesel fuel and to return ledge that a number of diesel vehicles portion of that tax to the States. in the City of Melbourne do emit showers Therefore, the users of diesel engines of filth and dangerous chemical products should not be expected to carry the from a lateral exhaust. Diesel motors burden imposed by the imposition of a should be compelled by law to have a double registration fee. One point is vertical discharge into the air, which not clear to me. In his second-reading would lessen the offensive smell. speech, the Minister indicated that Vic­ toria hoped to obtain from the Federal The Hon. i. A. SWINBURNE.-That Government this financial year a sum matter is being covered in the Country approximating £700,000 from the tax Fire Authority (Amendment) Bill. on diesel fuel. I should like to know The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-There whether the Federal Government has is evidence from eminent medical men, determined the formula under which the including those at the Medical School at distribution of the diesel oil tax is to be the university, that the discharge from made to the States. diesel engines is a cause of lung cancer. It has been suggested that cigarette Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! understand smoking may cause lung cancer, but .it has not. there is far more evidence, according to The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-If the eminent medical authorities, that the formula is the same as operates in rela­ emission of fumes from diesel engines tion to the petrol tax, the Government in cities causes that complaint. The should again· advance Victoria's claim effects of diesel engines are not greatly for a more equitable distribution of the felt in the country where the air is pure, amount of tax collected in Victoria. but where there are lal'ge congregations Everyone realizes that Victoria is un­ of motor vehicles in crowded cities, justly treated under the formula for the medical evidence proves that the fumes return of the tax on petrol. Victoria emitted from diesel engines have the contributes to other States approxi­ effect mentioned. I do not suggest that mately £4,000,000 of the tax collected all diesel motors emit these foul and on petrol. If that formula is to operate dangerous chemical products. I am in­ in relation to the diesel oil tax Victoria formed that if a motor is properly will be further penalized to the benefit maintained, the emission of gases is not of other States. Whilst I agree those dangerous, but if the jets are allowed other States must receive some assis­ to become blocked, or something of that tance in their development, because of nature happens, then the offensive dis­ their vast areas and small populations, charge, which is so common from some I do not agree that it should be to the 3434 Motor Car [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

disadvantage of Victoria. In my opinion these vehicles be registered in this State the Commonwealth Government should in order that the third party insurance make special grants to those States from policies on those vehicles will be valid. its vast surpluses. As a result of the A person who may be injured by one reduction in the registration fees on of these vehicles will then have his diesel engines, the State will lose ap­ rights protected. Motor cars which are proximately £200,000. This legislation used on interstate trade but which are will not come into operation until such registered in Victoria are referred to time as the Commonwealth Government in clause 5. No fees will be charged passes the Act .imposing. the tax on for the registration of such vehicles. diesel oil and after the formula for the However, it is desirable that they be distribution of that tax is made known. registered for police recognition pur­ I am sure the Minister of Transport will poses and in order to ensure that they press Victoria's claim to ensure that a carry a special number plate so that just return f:rom the new tax will be they may be detected when they are made to this State. The Country party engaged on intra-state business. Clause supports the Bill. 6 of the Bill relates to the driving of The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash unregistered motor cars and makes an Province).-As Mr. Bradbury said, the owner of such a car as well as the Country party supports the Bill. Many driver an offender. Under the provisions municipal authorities use diesel engines of clause 7, the Chief Commissioner of in the course of their undertakings. Police will have .power to refuse to issue It is not right that municipalities that a licence to drive a motor car in certain are doing work for the ratepayers should cases. At present a person who has been be exposed to further imposts. So, mem­ convicted of an offence in this State can bers of my party support the Bill. be refused a licence. However, some doubt exists as to whether a licence The motion was agreed to. can be refused to a person whose The Bill was read a second time, and application had been rejected in another passed through its remaining stages. State or who has been convicted in other States. The amendment con­ MOTOR CAR (AMENDMENT) BILL. tained in the clause is intended to ensure that the police, in refusing a Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of licence, can take recognition of the fact Transport) .-I move- that the applicant has. been convicted That this Bill he now read a second time. in other States. The Bill contains a number of minor Clause 8 of the Bill will make it amendments, although some of them possible to disqualify a person from may have far-reaching consequences. obtaining a licence for a certain period. Clause 2 extends the privilege of free rn· other words, a man may be con­ registration to certain invalid persons. victed and declared by the court to be Previously, a special form of tricycle disqualified from holding a licence, but or cycle was free of registration under it might not have been known that he the principal Act. It is proposed that already possessed a licence. The a special type of motor car, which has intention of the amendment is to make been modified for use by invalid persons, certain that such a person loses the shall be free of registration fees. On right to obtain a licence and that the a previous occasion the registration fee licence he has at the time of his con­ for motor vehicles eiwned by municipali­ viction shall be cancelled. ·Under the ties was raised to £1 10s., but a refer­ principal Act, certain municipalities have ence to £1 remained in sub-section ( 3) power to prohibit the movement · of of section 8. The ·amendment contained trucks that exceed 6 tons in weight in clause 3 will remedy that anomaly. over sub-standard roads; It is considered Clause 4 relates solely to motor cars better to relate the weight to the axles which are registered in other States but Of the truck. The amendment contained which are used exclusively in interstate in clause 9 will allow .certain heavier trade.· It is considered desirable that vehicles which will not : catise damage Motor Oar [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3.435 to travel over sub-standard roads and permissible weights~ The remainder of will be of advantage to municipalities this clause deals with the method O'f and to carriers. weighing motor cars. Some doubt has arisen as to whether a person accused Clause 10 makes a number of amend­ of having an overloaded vehicle can he ments to section 32 of the principal Act, made to have it weighed at the most which deals with the maximum limits convenient point. In a recent court of width, height and length of motor decision it was ruled that .the driver of vehicles. Paragraph (a) raises the maxi­ a vehicle shou'ld select the method by mum height of a vehicle used on a high­ which his vehicle shall be weighed. way from 12 feet to 12 feet 6 Naturally, a driver would tend to select inches. Most of the amendments the most inconvenient method, hoping contained in clause 10 bring the law that his vehicle would not be weighed regarding the registration of motor and that he would escape conviction. vehicles in regard to road transport into This clause empowers the officer who line with what is laid down in the codes stops the vehicle to determine the known as the "green book." That book method of weighing. contains all the regulations which were Clause 13 substitutes a new schedule agreed to at an interstate conference of for the Third Schedule to the principal transport Ministers. The " green book " Act. The alterations in this schedule contains the recommendations that have will :bring the Victorian maximum been accepted as a standard. When all weight limits into line with those of New States have been brought into line it South Wales. Should any honorable will be possible to drive any type of member desire further information on motor truck or vehicle from Brisbane to any clause during the Committee stage, Western Australia without it being I shall be pleased to supply it. I com­ necessary to conform to certain condi­ mend the Bill to the House. tions in one State and not in another. It is desirable that tlhese matters should The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-I do not ·be brought into line. think the M.inister explained accurately the effects of clause 4 and I should like Paragraph ( c) alters the permissible him to elaborate on that clause. gross weight carried on one axle from 17,000 lb. to 18,000 lb. In the past, it Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-In a recent has been .the practice to allow some case, the interstate vehicle owners to'lerance before launching a prosecution, claimed that they did not have to regis­ and· probably Victorian standards are not ter their vehicles at all if they were far removed from those of New South engaged exclusively or solely on inter­ Wales; 18,000 1b. has been agreed upon state work and that claim was upheld by the various States and in future, it by the court. The existing law provides will be an offence to carry more than the that a third-party insurance policy must recognized interstate standard. Para­ be taken out at the same time as a graph (d) abolishes a speed limit of 40 vehicle is registered. Consequently, we miles an hour for commercial goods can compel owners of vehicles to regis­ vehicles weighlng between 2! tons and ter their vehicles but we cannot compel 3 tons. Paragraph (f) restates the pen­ them to pay a registration fee because alti~s for driving an oversized or over­ that would amount to a .tax. We are weight vehicle; it restates also the power endeavouring to avoid the need for a of the police and officers of the Country registration certificate, together with an Roads Board, the Transport Regulation insurance ·policy in two States. Conse­ Board and local eouncils in respect of quently, a vehicle owner who so desires overloaded vehicles. First, the owner may register a vehicle in Victoria with­ is made equally lia1ble with the driver out having to re-insure the vehicle here. or the person in charge of the vehicle. On the motion of the Hon. William Secondly, the general penalty is raised Slater, for the Hon. J. W. GALBALLY from £50 to £100 and provision is made (Melbourne North Province), the debate for additional penalties proportionate to was adjourned until the next day of the amount of the excess above the meeting. 3436 Estate Agents [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

ESTATE AGENTS (AM1ENDMENT) ones that deserve support. The com­ BILL. mittee thoroughly examined the matter The debate (adjourned 1from Novem­ and heard a deal of detailed evidence, ber 26) on the motion of the Hon. fE. P. including some given by Mr. Turner, the Cameron (Minister of Health) for the sub-dean of the faculty of law at the second reading of this Bill was resumed. University of Melbourne and three members of Parliament, two of whom The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta are estate agents and the other, myself, Galla Province) .-This Bill was intro­ a lawyer. duced as a result of the experience gained from the working of the Estate I hope that at some stage the New Agents Act 1956. Because of 'Certain South Wales practice of stamping con­ difficulties that have been experienced in tracts of sale in the first instance will that connexion, the Government intro­ be adopted in Victoria so that proper duced an amending Bill, which was re­ stamp duty will be affixed to such ferred to the Statute Law Revision documents. That will avoid the endless Committee. That committee devoted a difficulties that arise when the transac­ great deal of attention to ;the problems tion reaches the end of the chain, and which have arisen and it submitted a one endeavours to collect the stamp duty report which the Government has payable. To a large extent the problem accepted almost in its entirety. I had could be solved by requiring contracts the honour to he invited to tender evi­ of sale to be treated as ·primary instru­ dence before that committee, probably ments that must bear the proper stamp because its members knew that I held impression. strong views about certain practices in The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-It would relation to the work of estate agents. My views did not prevail on the com­ also help the revenue. mittee. At the Committee stage of this The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-That Bill I shall advert to that subject, and is so. The practice in England is similar request honorable members to further to that which obtains in New South consider it because of the difficulties I Wales. I express concern at unqualified have experienced as a legal practitioner. persons in the form of estate agents The British Court of Appeal has com­ preparing the most important document mented strongly on the practice of estate of all in what is a legal transaction, agents preparing such vital documents namely, the contract of sale. Under as contracts of sale. This is really a the Legal Profession Practice Act it is Committee Bill. I have always con­ an offence for anyone other than a sidered it wr-0ng that the Real Estate lawyer to prepare a document of and Stock Institute should fix the scale transfer, which is relatively simple. of commission payable to estate agents, without hearing any representations by The Hon. R. W. MACK.-Surely ven­ the community at large. In respect of dors and purchasers submit their con­ conveyancing matters, the scale of fees tracts 1to lawyers for perusal before they payable to the legal profession is sign them. determined by a committee presided over by a Judge of the Supreme Court. The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-! In my opinion the institute should not wish that were so. Of course, prudent be the final arbiter in this matter. A persons and careful estate agents do so, Judge of the County Court should but some new Australians believe the preside over the deliberations. That contract of sale is the title itself. The principle, which has worked very proper course is for the vendor's satisfactorily in the case of the legal solicitor to prepare the contract. Many profession, should apply to estate agents' of the estate agents who prepare ,con­ rates of commission, which have been tracts of sale do not .possess even a substantially increased. Most of the rudimentary knowledge of law or the other proposals referred to the Statute implications of the instrument. Disas­ Law Revision Committee are desirable trous results flow from this. H is made Estat,e Agents [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Aniendment) Bill. 3437 more difficult because of recent legis­ in any way. In the case · to which I lation, town planning requirements, have referred, Lord Justice Morris changes .in the property law, the passing stated- of the Transfer of Land Act 1954, and If commission was ito be earned when a other matters. The document has binding contract was made, then I should become more difficult to prepare and have thought that solicitors would ·have been introduced to give their skilled understand, yet, quite blithely, we allow assistance as to the terms and form of any an unqualified person-sometimes a proposed contract. This case perhaps person without the slightest knowledge illustrates how' troubles and difficulties may of the rudiments of a contract of sale, arise if estate agents do work, that is to say, the work of arranging binding con­ its implications or effects-to prepare tracts, which is more appropriately done it, often with disastrous results to either by solicitors. of the parties. Lord Justice Romer, in his judgment, In October, 1956, this matter was said- referred to in . judgments given by In conclusion, and in agreement with my members of the English Court of Appeal brethren, I think it is highly undesirable in a commission case. I should like to that estate· agents should hurry people into signing contracts without legal advice and refer to one or two observations in especially when they attach to those support of the view I put. Lord Justice contracts conditions of sale which Singleton stated- neither the parties nor the agents them­ The case shows how undesirable it is selves in the least understand. The agents' for persons who have something to sell to function is to find purchasers for property sign a form put before them by agents and not to :produce 1contracts and -persuade without understanding it, and it emphasizes the parties into signing them. the necessity for taking legal advice before a contract for the sale of property is Those strong observations were made signed. by the highest legal authority in the British Commonwealth as recently as Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-It might be last year. Because of my experience, a good idea if estate agents had a and that of my fellow brethren of the couple of lessons in the law. law, I was impelled to :present my views The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER-In to the Statute Law Revision Committee. justice to the Real Estate and Stock The committee did not feel disposed to Institute, I point out that it conducts accept them, but I shall submit them to a two or three years' course. That is this House in the form of an amend­ a very desirable proceeding to be ment which, I hope, will be seriously initiated. The institute is endeavouring considered. It fa not desired to inter­ to equip the men engaged in this fere in any way with the proper func­ profession with a knowledge of the tion of the estate agent to !bring about elements of legal practice, particularly a sale and earn commission. No of contract law. Practising lawyers­ lawyer objects to that. But we do [ speak for a number of members of object to an unqualified person prepar­ the profession who have encountered ing a document, the puriport and effect this difficulty-are daily experiencing of which in many -instances he does not the results of the unqualified man comprehend. operating in a field where often com­ Sir ARTHUR wARNER.-A few lawyer.s petent lawyers feel afraid to tread. are in the same category. The Hon. R. W. MACK.-Do not the The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.­ real estate institutes try to exercise Businessmen sometimes make mistakes some control over their members to and go " down the drain." One has only maintain an ethical standard? to read the daily Stock Exchange re­ ports to realize that fact. Even the The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-They directors of the great State of Victoria have no disciplinary controls at all do not merit much praise when they analogous to the powers of the Law show a substantial deficit every year. Institute; there is no provision for a I throw Sir Arthur Warner's rebuke to member to be reprimanded or disciplined lawyers back on him. I have held a 3438 .Estate Agents [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

strong view of this matter for many that there is a body such as the Statute years, and it has been fortified by ex­ Law Revision Committee gives no war­ perience. Nobody desires to interfere rant for the abdication of the legis- with the proper role of the agent to lative functions of this House. We introduce a buyer and a seller and to should have first considered this legis­ earn commission. I am the last person lation before it was referred to that who desires to see any limitation placed committee. Mr. Slater gave the com­ upon that function, but I want to ensure mittee the benefit of his great legal that, in the preparation of these most experience, but he was unable to express important documents, only a skilled the same views in this Chamber at the per.son is employed. That is the effect time the Bill was considered. I have of an amendment which I shall .propose great respect for his views as a legal to the Committee and which I hope will practitioner, but at the same time be accepted. had I been invited to do so I could have expressed my opinions on the mea­ The other provisions of .the Bill are sure. Unfortunately our party is not commendable, and I trust that the represented on the Statute Law Revision House will agree to them. The amend­ Committee, and whilst that is the posi­ ment that I shall ·propose will not be tion the committee is not truly repre­ put in a spirit of opposition to real sentative of Parliamentary opinion and estate agents as a 1body. I have great not competent to judge matters on be­ respect for them, because they perform half of all sections of the community a most necessary function in the com­ and Parliament generally. mercial and economic life of the com­ munity. They have their sphere, just With those remarks, I commend this as the lawyer has his. The Bill has belated attempt to put some things been made necessary as ·a result of the right. I repeat that it is a peculiar working of legislation relating to estate process for Parliament to pass mea­ agents, which has :been highly satis­ sures and depend on the Statute Law factory and beneficial. Flaws and Revision Committee to correct any anomalies have been examined, and, in shortcomings. It is the type of safety the light of the independent examina­ valve which may or may not open or tion of the Statute Law Revision close at the right time. I am not blam­ Committee, this measure now comes ing Mr. Slater or the committee for before us. I support its .passage. matters which would have better been considered before this legislative body. The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash Province).-! agree with many of the Mr. Slater made observations in views expressed by Mr. Slater. How­ regard to what I might term the ever, I should like to say first that the fiduciary relationship that exists Bill, no matter how praiseworthy it between a legal practitioner and may be, is a damning indictment of ·the his client. When a contract of sale practice of members getting together is to be drawn up, the person to under­ before a measure is projected into this take the task should be a legal practi­ Chamber and deciding that it shall be tioner. My legal experience has not passed by force majeure, irrespec­ been as extensive as that of Mr. Slater, tive of its merits. The Estate but often my attention has been drawn Agents Bill was rushed through the to certain difficulties that have arisen House and the party to which I be­ in connexion with contracts of sale. long was the only one which insisted that Both new and old Australians enter into time should be granted to consider it. arrangements they do not fully under­ The meaning and purpose of this House stand. With great respect to the real of Review disappears when we are estate profession, I say that most of its asked to become mere rubber stamps members are worthy exponents of the for ill-considered measures which are art of salesmanship and their work is introduced by the Government in the to obtain a deposit and a signature. A late hours of. the session, and rushed legal document should be properly to this· House for approval. The fact drawn up by legal practitioners. In my Estate Agents [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (A rnendrnent) Bill. 3439 legal experience I have often been con­ The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-The fronted with wills that have been made point I make is that a vendor often out on what were sometimes called feels that the commission he is called " every man his own lawyer " forms. upon to pay to an estate agent entitles Once a man in hospital filled in one him to demand that the agent should of these forms and appointed his wife prepare the contract of sale, and as his executrix. After the printed frequently he does not understand why words on the form " I give, devise and he should employ a solicitor to act on bequeath," he added nothing except the his behalf. Recently a man rang me words ''all my property." and told me that he had entered into Frequently lawyers see illustrations of a contract and wondered whether I breaches of ordinary legal caution in would examine it for him. He was the way persons attempt to handle con­ sur.prised when I informed him that I tracts concerned with the disposal of would charge a perusal fee. I would property. In these days, many estate have been letting the profession down agents rely on what are called sale had I not done so. He ·agreed to pay notes and often advise clients that they what I considered in all humility was a consider contracts of sale are unneces­ reasonable fee. Upon examination, I sary. The sale notes contain the name found that the document was riddled of the purchaser and of the vendor, with inaccuracies. but frequently the agents do not even The vendor was greatly perturbed comply with the provisions of the Act because he had paid the agent commis­ whereunder ·they must supply a copy of sion and considered that should have documents to each party concerned when covered everything. In that instance the contract is concluded. Many of the there was no contract of employment agents are not aware of what should between the agent and myself. The be included in a contract of sale, client of whom I was s'peaking is a particularly a terms contract. In some builder who has scores of contracts on cases there are as many as four and hand, and however ignorant he may be, five sub-purchasers concerned, and apart he is still making money. He was from the consideration involved in each seeking legal advice cheaply. contract there is the matter of stamp The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-He was a duty to be paid. Lawyers must advert mean man. to these details, but agents do not worry The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-As an about them. Their job is to obtain a estate agent, I am sure Mr. Byrnes signature in such a way as to make it would never be guilty of preparing possible for the sale to proceed. As a such a contract. Unfortunately, the practicising solicitor, I point out that world is not perfect and there are the Real Estate and Stock Institute people who depart from moral fixes rates of commission to be charged principles. The question of the by agents, whereas lawyers have their remuneration of estate agents, as Mr. charges fixed by a panel presided over Slater put it, is also important. These by a Supreme Court Judge. are matters which may have to be I wholeheartedly support the amend­ embodied in subsequent legislation. My ment Mr. Slater has adumbrated. I party supports the Bill. Had this think it is a splendid idea. Contracts Parliament put the. appropriate· are· important not only to the revenue machinery in motion when the original of solicitors, but also for the benefit of Bill was before the House there would clients who may be in difficulties lbng not have been so much creaking at the after the original .parties to the sale hinges. are dead. It is of utmost importance The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern that legal skill shall be lavished upon Province).-! agree that· the problem the· preparation of a: contract for· the referred to by Mr. Slater and Mr. protection of all parties concerned. Brennan does exist in that estate agents The .Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-Your argu­ do prepare contracts of sale, and very ments are all in favour of some measure often those contracts are imperfect to control real estate agents. and do cause trouble. 3440 Estate Agents [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

I am uncertain whether the remedy stated, in the case dted by Mr. Slater, lies in prohibiting estate agents from his task is to find a buyer. My preparing contracts of sale. The whole amendment will be designed to cover question requires careful examination. not only the case where an agent is I doubt whether any provision· could be retained to get a contract signed, but made in this Bill to solve the problem. in the more general case where he is I suggest for Mr. Slater's consideration retained to find a buyer. He must have that the remedy might lie in making the written ·authority in both cases, provision that a contract of sale drawn otherwise he ·escapes from the net by by an estate agent, whilst it might not getting a written contract at all. entitle him to claim for commission on My amendment will provide that he the basis that he had completed his must have that written authority before task, would not be legally binding as he completes the task which he was between vendor and purchaser and retained to do and in respect of which create rights. Alternatively, any con­ he is claiming his commission. tract of sale which is expressed to The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-! do not be a sale note only or a preliminary think the Committee is quite dear on document anticipating a formal docu­ that point. In the odginal Bill an agent ment to be signed later, whilst it might ·could not claim unless he first had the complete the task of the. agent, it authority put in his hands in writing, should not be binding on vendor or but now so long as he gets that written purchaser until such formal document agreement from the purchaser :before has been signed. Mr. Slater will he completes the contract, he can claim appreciate that very often a prelimin­ his commission. ary contract or sale note sets out that there has to be a formal contract The Hon. P. V. J4iELTHAM.-Jn signed later, but as the document answer to Mr. Byrnes, the Act provides already complies with the statute of that an agent must have his authority frauds and already contains some before he commences negotiations, which terms and conditions, it is extremely is an impossible condition. difficult to insert anything else in the The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-In this Bill formal contract which follows. That the time .is extended so that provided he matter cannot be remedied by amend­ gets that written authority before he ing this Bill to provide that no estate completes the contract he can claim his agent shall prepare a contract of sale. ·commission. I indicate that in the Committee The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-That is stage I propose to move two amend­ so. The Statute Law Revision Com­ ments. These are not in conti;-adiction mittee very wis~ly stated that it would of anything that has been decided by be sufficient if he had his written the Statute Law Revision Committee; authority before the contract was signed. they are merely extensions of principles They forgot the cases in which the that have been accepted by the com­ agent's duty is merely to find a buyer. mittee. The first relates to the right · My amendment covers both types of of an agent to claim his commission. case. The Statute Law Revision Committee accepted the principle that he must The second amendment I propose to have the authority in writing before he move refers to the right of rescission of completes his task. Unfortunately, a purchaser, which is given in two cases; it appears in the Bill that he must hold first, if the agent does not give the that authority in writing before he has purchaser the statement in writing procured the signatures of the parties which is provided for in the Act; and, to a document purporting to bind them. secondly, the purchaser has the riight of That is the very thing this House is rescission if, having been given that worried about, because that contem­ statement, the promises of finance con­ plates it is the task of the agent to tained in the statement· are not carried procure the written contract when in out. The Bill is drawn to provide that the point of fact, as Lord Justice Romer purchaser shall have a right to rescind The HO'n. P. V. Feltham. Estate Agents (Amendment) Bill. [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Forests Commission. 3441

within three months, provided that he Mr. Slater said that the Institute had no has not paid the ful'l purchase money, control. over them. I have knowledge entered into possession, or accepted title. of an estate agent who asked a lady to In the way the Bill is draWn that sell her house. She agreed and he asked applies only to the financial provisions. her the price she wanted for it. She It does not apply to the delivery of the nominated a net price and the agent statement. My amendment will be said that he would try to get a pur­ designed to provide that a purchaser chaser for the house and asked the lady shall have three months' right of can­ not to tell any intending purchaser the cellation only if he does not enter into price she wanted. The house was sold possession and accept title. Otherwise, and the agent gave this lady the net great confusion could arise because of price that she had asked. I understand, the subsequent dependent transaction. however, that the property was sold for considerably more than that price. I The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager). should like to know whether the agent -Mr. Feltham has indicated the was within his rights in accepting the amendments he has proposed to move. amount in excess of that given to the I suggest that it is best not to discuss owner. them further at present. The motion was agreed to. The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-! have conferred with the Minister of Health, The Bill was read a second time, and the Attorney-General, the Committee of ordered to be committed on the next Real Estate Agents, Mr. Slater and Mr. day of meeting. Brennan, all of whom have indicated that they give my amendments their The Hou,se adjourned at 12.26 a.m. blessing. (Thursday). The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager). -The Minister of Transport stated earlier that he proposed to adjourn the LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. House at a quarter-past twelve. It is now past that time. Mr. Paul Jones is Wednesday, December 4, 1957. seeking the call, and I do not know whether it would suit him to address the House now or on· the next day of The SPEAKER (the Hon. w. J. F. meeting. However, I do consider that McDonald) took the chair at 11.7 a.m., having regard to the hard work done by and read the prayer. the Hansard reporters, . the table officers and the doorkeepers, it is only FORESTS COMMISSION. proper that they should be given an ROY ALTY RATES: OFFICERS. opportunity to rest. Honorable mem­ Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra) asked bers have had a busy day also, but I Mr. Fraser (Honorary Minister), for am entirely in the hands of the House, the Minister of Forests- and particularly the Minister of Trans­ port, as to what happens. 1. Whether the Forests Commission in­ tends to increase royalty rates in 1958? Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister ol 2. What are the names of the present Transport) .-By leave, what does Mr. occupants of the following offices in the Paul Jones desire to do? Forests Commission:-(a) buildings officer; (b) mechanical engineer; and (c) officer­ The Hon. PAUL JONES (Doutta Galla in-charge, Estates Branch? Province).-My remarks will take only Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ three minutes. I listened with interest The answers supplied ·by the Minister to three of the legal members of the of Forests are-- Chamber giving their views on the Bill. 1. The Forests Commission has not as I was particularly interested in the yet given any consideration to royalty answer given by Mr. Slater to Mr. Mack increases in 1958. as to whether the Real Estate and Stock 2. (a) Edward Banks John; (b) Robert Institute had control over its members. Henry Tollit; and

YOUNG FARMERS' CLUB STATE RIVERS AND WATER MOVEMENT. SUPPLY COMMISSION. TEAM FOR WORLD PLOUGHING lNVERLOCH WATER SUPPLY SCHEME. CHAMPIONSHIPS: GOVERNMENT GRANT. Sir HERB.ERT HYLAND ( Gippsland Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra) asked South) asked the Minister of Water the Premier- Supply- Whether the Government will make What is the reason for the long delay in available the sum of £1,000 to the Young commencing work on the Inverloch water Farmers' Club Movement for use towards supply scheme and when approval will be the .cost of sending an Australian plough­ given for the acceptance of a tender for ing team to the world ·ploughing ·champion­ the supply and delivery of the necessary ships at Stuttgart? pipes? Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). Mr. MIBUS (Minister of Water -No request has ibeen received by the Supply).-The answer is- Government, but should the Young Plans and specifications for all of the Farmers' Club Movement submit an works required have not yet been finalized. The trust was informed in April, 1957, application, it will receive consideration. that funds would be available as from the 1st July, 1957. Tenders for pipes for the PROPOSED SECOND UNIVERSITY. main pipe lines have been submitted by USE OF LAND AT PENTRIDGE. the trust and discussions have taken place between the engineers of the trust and of Mr. .MUTTON (Coburg) asked the the Commission as to whether approval Premier- should be given to the acceptance of tenders involving several thousands of Whether, in view of the expressed inten­ pounds above the lowest offer received. Hon of the Government to provide a It is expected that this matter will be second university within the Melbourne finalized within fourteen days. Tenders metropolitan area and of the need for for pipes for the reticulation have not yet good transport arrangements for students and lectures, he will make unm•ed land been received from :the trust. at Pent.ridge Gaol, Coburg, available for the proposed university buildings; if not, COUNTRY ROADS BOARD. why? FUNDS FOR ROAD AND BRIDGE WORK. Mr. BOLTE (Pr.emier and Treasurer). Sir HERBERT HYLAND ( Gippsland -The suggestion of the honorable South) asked the Minister of Public member will be examined fully by •the Works- Government when the question of the What amounts were made available to provision of the site for a second the Country Roads Board for road and university is being detevmined. bridge work in each of the last five financial years and what amount it is estimated will be made available during this financial POLICE DEPARTMENT. year? · MOTOR DRIVING SCHOOL~ BROAD MEADOWS For Sir THOMAS MALTBY (Minis­ STUD DEPOT. ter of Public Works), Mr. Fraser (Hon­ Mr. COOK (Benalla) asked the Chief orary Minister).-The answer is­ Secretary- Country Roads Board Statement of Receipts. 1. Whether the Government intends to 1952-53 £7,845,483 start a motor driving school ·at the police 1953-54 £8,558,323 stud de.pot at Broadmeadows; if so, when? 1954-55 £10,510,64() 2. Whether it is intended to transfer .the 1955-56 £11,949,940 police training depot from St. Kilda-road 1956-57 £14,181,589• to the police stud depot at Broadmeadows; 1957-58 (estimate) £17,697,000· if so, when? 3. What is the area of the police stud MUNICIPALITIES. depot at Broadmeadows? FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE. Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).­ The answers are- For Mr. BARCLAY (Mildura), Mr. 1. Yes. It is the intention of the Govern­ Cook asked the Minister of Public ment to start such a school at the police Works- stud depot at Broadmeadows. What is the amount of relief granted to It is anticipated :that the school will be date to each municipality in Victoria under in operation within six months. Act No. 4140, as amended 1by Act No. 4415, 2. No. and the amount estimated to be granted 3. 182 acres. in each case this financial year? Qountry Roads Board. [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Racing.· 3443

For Sir THOMAS MALTBY (Minister SNOWY MOUNTAINS HYDRO­ of Public Works), Mr. Fraser (Honorary ELECTRIC AUTHORITY. Minister) .-The answer ~s-· AGREEMENT. The relief granted to municipalities to Mr. MITCHELL (Benambra) asked 30th June, 1957 .totals £4,578,895. It is the Minister of Electrical Under­ estimated t·hat t 1he relief to be granted to municipalities for this financial year- takings- 1957-58-will total £111,242. 1. Whether he will make copies of the Particulars relating to the liability of Snowy mountains hydro-ele.ctric agreement each particular municipality are not avail­ available to all members? able. Prior to the introduction of the 2. Whether there is a subsidiary agr.ee­ " Plan,'' it was neces$ary, whenever a new ment; if so, whether all members will be municipality was erected or municipal permitted to see this document before it is boundaries were altered, to prepare fresh signed by the Premier? redemption tables in respect of permanent works on the roads affected, but as the Mr. REID (Minister of Electrical Board is now requir·ed to meet the whole Undertakings).-The answers are- of the interest and sinking fund payments on the loans, no good purpose would have 1. A summary of the agreement has been been served by the continuance of the old prepared and will ibe circulated to all mem­ practice. A great deal of work would be bers shortly. If any member also requires in.valved in bringing the records up to date, a copy of the full agreement, such will be without any corresponding advantage. made available to him upon request. It is regretted, therefore, that details for 2. Yes. Copies of this document will be each municipality cannot 1be supplied. circulated to members. COUNTRY ROADS BOARD. RACING. PRINCES HIGHWAY EAST: DEVIATION. BOOKMAKERS' HOLDINGS: TuRNOVER Mr. COCHRANE (Gippsland West) TAX. asked the Minister of Public Works- Mr. TODD (Port Melbourne) asked Whether it is the intention of the Country the Treasurer- Roads Board to deviate the Princes High­ way East, between Dandenong and Sale· 1. What amount of bookmakers' holdings if so, where, and when. ' was liable for turnover tax in respect of meetings conducted by each of the follow­ For Sir THOMAS MALTBY (Minister ing clubs from 1st January, 1957, to 31st of Public Works), Mr. Fraser (Honorary October, 1957:-(a) Victoria Racing Club; Minister).-The answer is- (b) Victoria Amateur Turf Club; (c) State Electricity Commission require­ Moonee Valley Racing Club; and (d) Mel­ ments will necessitate relocation of the ·bourne Racing Club? highway between Moe and Morwell within 2. What amount of turnover tax it is the next few years. The time at which estimated will be collected between 1st this work will be done will depend on January, 1957, and 31st October, 1957, and the rate of development of the Commis­ what estimated amounts will be returned sion's activities. Deviations from the exist­ to each of the following clubs as their ing route to divert through traffic from the share of the tax during this .period:­ busy portions of Berwick-Drouin-Warragul­ (a) Victoria Racing Club; (b) Victoria Traralgon are part of a longer range plan. Amateur Turf Club; (c) Moonee Valley No indication can at present be given as Racing Club; and (d) Melbourne Racing to when these deviations will be constructed. Club? Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). LONG SERVICE LEAVE. -The answers are- PAYMENTS BY GOVERNMENT DEPART­ 1. (a) Victoria Racing Club . . £6,448,800 MENTS AND INSTRUMENTALITIES. \U) Victoria Amateur Turf Sir HERBERT HYLAND ( Gippsland Club £7,938,800 South) asked the Treasurer- (C) Moonee Valley Racing What amount was paid last financial Club £7,480,400 year by each Government Department and (d) Melbourne Racing Club £6,034,400 instrumentality in lieu of long service leave? 2. The amount of turnover .tax collected Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). on bookmakers' holdings at meetings held -The answer is- by each of the above-mentioned clubs dur­ Owing to the number of Departments ing the period 1st January, 1957, and 31st and instrumentalities involved, it has not October, 1957, was:- been possible to obtain the information re­ Victoria Racing Club . . £128,976 quired. However, it will :be supplied to the (b) Victoria Amateur Turf honorable member as early as possible. Club. . £158, 776 3444 Education Department. [ASSEMBLY.] Housing Commission.

(c) Moonee Valley Racing Mr. PORTER (Honorary Minister) Club .. £149,608 (By leave).-! am sure that the Minister (d) Melbourne Racing Club .. £120,688 of Education .would be prepared to dis­ The amount of turnover tax returned to cuss the matter with the Leader of the each club in respect of the same period was:- Opposition or with any other honorable (a) Victoria Racing Club £16,122 member. (b) Victoria Amateur Turf Club . . £19,847 EGG AND EGG PULP MARKETING (c) Moonee Valley Racing BOARD. Club . . £18,701 (d) Melbourne Racing Club. . .£15,086 VISIT OF OFFICERS TO PRODUCER. Mr. GAINEY (Elsternwick) asked EDUCATION DEPARTMENT. Mr. Fraser (Honorary Minister). for the VICTORIA'S EDUCATIONAL NEEDS: Minister of Agriculture- COMMITTEE OF INQUIRY. 1. Whether the Minister is aware that two officers of :the Egg and Egg Pulp Mr. CONNELL (Evelyn) asked the Marketing Board entered the premises of Minister of Education- Mr. W. E. Dorricott, of Narre Warren 1. Whether the committee of experts set North, on Friday last under powers up under the Director of Education, to conferred by section 9 of the Marketing of inquire into educational needs in Victoria Primary Products

ASIAN INFLUENZA. 5. The Department of Health is aware of the position. The Consultative Council on NUMBER OF CASES: TREATMENT: PRE­ Influenza will ·be called together if neces­ VENTIVE MEASURES. sary. Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked The Epidemiological Committee of the Mr. Porter (Honorary Minister) for the Commonwealth National Health and Medi­ cal Research Council will meet in Mel­ Minister of Health- bourne on the 20th December, 1957, to 1. How many cases of " Asian Flu " were consider the use of vaccine throughout the reported to the Department of Health in Commonwealth and its recommendations the past six months? will be awaited by the Minister. 2. Whether any deaths from this disease were reported? RAILWAY DEPARTMENT. 3. What is the estimated number of cases treated by the medical profession and not CONTRACT WORK AT NEWPORT WORK­ reported officially? SHOPS: SPRING BEAMS: RECRUITMENT 4. How many cases were treated by AND WORK OF STAFF. vaccine injection and at what cost per patient? Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) asked Mr. Porter (Honorary Minister) for the 5. Whether the Department of Health has noted the warning issued by Sir Minister of Transport- Macfarlane Burnet that Australia can 1. W·hether, in view of the cost of work expect another epidemic of " Asian Flu " carried out by outside contractors being in next winter; if so, what steps, if any, the excess of .the cost for the same type of Department is taking to prepare for such work done at the Newport railway work­ an epidemic and whether the vaccine will shops, the Minister will take steps to review be available to all general medical prac­ his policy on contract work so that the titioners? present workshops staff and plant can be Hr. PORTER (Honorary Minister).­ fully utilized to cover all railway con­ struction and maintenance? The answers supplied by the Minister of Health are-- 2. Whether spring ·beams, made · by Messrs. Bradford and Kendall Proprietary 1. Influenza was made a notifiable disease Limited, as -part of the cast-steel bogies, on the 10th July, 1957, and continued to be have proved unsuitable and have had to be such until the 13th August, 1957. During replaced by forged spring ·beams made at that period 33,720 cases of influenza were the Newport workshops; if so, what was reported, and all were believed to ·be cases the cost of these replacements and by of Asian influenza as no other type was whom the cost was borne? discovered at that time. 3. Whether recruitment of labourers and 2. The Consultative Council on Influenza assistants for the workshops has been examined the circumstances of a number stopped and whether tradesmen and of cases where death had occurred and apprentices are called upon to work in where influenza was an originating or those capacities? complicating factor. Ninety-two deaths in Melbourne, mainly in infants and the aged, were considered to be attributable to Asian Mr. PORTER (Honorary Minister).­ influenza. It is believed that a comparable The Minister of Transport has supplied mortality rate would have existed through­ the following answers:- out the whole of the State. 1. The .policy of the Department ls to 3. It is known that the 33,720 cases construct and maintain rolling-stock to the reported represents only a fraction of the maximum extent to which suitable skilled total number of cases which occurred labour is available for this purpose. The during the period when influenza was existing workshops staff at Newport work­ notifiable. How many of the cases not shops is at present fully utilized on the notified were treated by medical prac­ construction and/or maintenance of rolling- titioners is impossible to determine. Noti­ stock. · fication was valuable, nevertheless, in esta•blishing affected areas, the speed of 2. An internal casting defect has been spread and the age groups mainly infected. located on a number of spring beams. The cost of replacement of these beams is being 4. The number ·of cases treated by injec­ borne by the contractor. tion is not known. The Commonwealth Serum Laboratories has made available for 3. In the normal course of their training, several years influenza vaccine at 10s. Gd. apprentice artisans are at times utilized to a dose. To this vaccine the Asian influenza assist tradesmen, but tradesmen are not strain was added in the latter half of 1957, employed on work normally allotted to and this special vaccine was distributed in unskilled staff. Owing to financial string­ the States of Australia by the Common­ ency, labour is not at present being wealth on a population ;basis. recruited for the workshops at Newport. 3446 Railway Department. f ASSEMBLY.] Mines Department.

MELBOURNE-ALBURY LINE: STANDARDI- The rail motor staff is an entirely separate section to that of · enginemen but ZATION OF GAUGE: SUPPLY OF negot-iations are in course with .the appro­ MATERIALS. priate union with a view to utilizing engine Mr. STONEHAM (1Midlands) asked drivers to drive rail motors as required. Mr. Porter (Honorary Minister), for 2. Not under present conditions. the Minister of Transport- Whether, as part of the agreement MINES DEPARTMENT. between the Commonwealth and the States of Victoria and New South Wales, cover-ing OILFIELDS AT LAKES ENTRANCE: COST the provision of a 4 ft. 8~ in. gauge OF WORK: BORING OPERATIONS. railway line between Albury and Mel­ Mr. MUTTON (Coburg) asked the bourne, necessary materials, including points and crossings, will be supplied from Minister of Mines- New South Wales; if so, whether negotia­ 1. What progress has been made in the tions could be re-opened to provide for development of the oil-fields at Lakes tenders being submitted from Victoria for Entrance? the supply of points and crossings? 2. What has been the cost to the State to date? Mr. PORTER (Honorary Minister).­ 3. Whether any horizontal boring has The answer supplied by the Minister of been carried out; if so, with what result? Transport is- 4. How many men are employed on No provision is being made in the boring operations, and what total amount proposed agreement between the Common­ of wages is paid per week? wealth and the States of Victoria and New 5. What is the intention of the Govern­ South Wales regarding the supply or pur­ ment regarding the development of the chase of materials required for the con­ area? struction of the 4 ft. Sh in. gauge line. All such materials will be obtained on the Mr. MIBUS (Minister of Mines).­ most advantageous terms offering, having The answers are- regard to price, time required for delivery, probable effect on production for normal 1. Since 1924, the Lakes Entrance area Victorian requirements, &c. has produced only 287,000 gallons of oil from some 40 wells. Four of these wells were drilled by the Mines Department, one DRIVERS FOR DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES: STAFF by .the Commonwealth, and the others by AT HEALESVILLE RAILWAY STATION. private companies. Forty wells have been armed in the 8 square miles around Lakes Mr. CONNELL (Evelyn) asked Mr. Entrance, and none of these wells has Porter (Honorary Minister), for the proved oil in economic quantities. The Minister of Transport- tertiary formations have been well tested, but with little success. Formations older 1. What is the reason, when steam loco­ in age, however, have not so far been motives are replaced by motor or diesel adequately explored where covered by driven locomotives. on certain railway younger rocks. lines, that the drivers and firemen of the In 1942, due to the urgent needs con­ steam locomotives are not trained to drive nected with the war effort, the Common­ the other types of locomotives, thus avoid­ wealth and State Governments agreed to ing their .transfer to other districts? share the cost of sinking a deep shaft at 2. Whether it is the intention of the Lakes Entrance and of carrying out hori- Railways Commissioners to reduce the . zontal drilling from the chamber at the status of the staff at the Healesvme bottom of the shaft. The cost of tMs work railway station? was approximately £140,000, of which this State paid £35,279. After various tests, this project was sold to a private company, Mr. PORTER (Honorary Minister).­ which continued .to carry out semi­ The answers, as supplied by the Minister horizontal boring from the bottom of the of Transport, are- shaft for a further six years. Thirty-two bores were completed, the total distance 1. Steam locomotive drivers are trained drilled being 10,234 feet; but the venture to drive diesel electric and/or main-line proved to be a commercial failure. electric locomotives only when such a course is deemed necessary. Exploration of Lakes Entrance was recently revived, the latest well producing When a steam locomotive is replaced by only uneconomical water and oil emulsion. a diesel electric or main-Hne electric loco­ Another company has more recently motive the transfer of enginemen is not entered into an agreement with a drilling involved as the steam driver would be syndicate to put down four wells in the trained .to drive the other type of area, immediately east of Lake Bunga, and locomotive. will be spudding-in next week. Ministerial [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Statement. 3447

2. Apart from £35,279, being the State's apparent recently that the New South share of cost of shaft, no record is avail­ Wales Government was not prepared to able of the cost of earlier bores put down by the Government. sign the supplementary agreement in 3. Answer to part 1 of the question the immediate future and that it would covers this. not submit the necessary ratifying 4. No men are employed by the State at present on boring for oil; consequently no legislation to the Parliament of wages are being paid. New South Wales until next year. 5. In view of the position set out in the Telephone inqmries from the New answer to part 1 of the question, the South Wales Premier's Department this Government has no immediate plans for the further drilling of this field. morning indicate that the Premier of that State has not yet signed the supple­ MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. men.tary agreement. SNOWY MOUNTAINS HYDRO-ELECTRIC The supplementary agreement is an SCHEME. important part of the transactions be­ Mr. REID (Minister of Electrical tween the three Governments, and, Undertakings).-By leave, I desire following the advice of the Solicitor­ to make a statement on legis­ General, it has been considered undesir­ lation concerning the Snowy moun­ able to introduce legislation into the tains hydro-electric scheme. The Victorian Parliament until such time as legislation which the Government had the New South Wales Government has proposed to introduce this session was made a decision concerning the sup­ a Bill to ratify the execution by the plementary agreement. Honorable mem­ Premier of the main agreement between bers will therefore appreciate that in the the Commonwealth, the State of New circumstances it is not practicable to South Wales and the State of Victoria, bring down a measure in the Victorian and a supplementary agreement between Parliament before the next session. the same parties. The main agreement In order to ensure that honorable has embodied in legal form the terms members shall have an adequate oppor.. and conditions which had been agreed tunity to study this legislation, I am on between the parties at various con­ taking the unusual course of circulating ferences and discussions extending over to them in the immediate future docu­ some years. The supplementary agree-· ments which would not normally be cir­ ment was directed specifically to pro­ culated until after the second-reading tecting landowners adjacent to the upper speech had been made. I shall, accord­ Murray from damage which might be ingly, supply to each member of both caused by flooding. · Houses, before the end of this month, The legislation was to take the form a summary of the main agreement, a of a short Bill containing in the main copy of the supplementary agreement, a clause ratifying the two agreements and a substantial ·portion of what will and several other clauses defining the be the notes of · my second-reading powers and authorities of the instru­ ·speech. The summary of the agreement mental~ties established by the agree­ to which I refer has been carefully pre­ ment and by the existing Common­ pared by an officer of the State Elec­ wealth legislation. The clauses of the tricity Commission, who has an intimate Bill had been drafted by the Parlia­ knowledge of the negotiations with the mentary Draftsman of Victoria, Mr. J. other Governments. This summary has J. Lynch, after consultation with the been prepared for the convenience of draftsmen of the other two Govern­ honorable members as the agreement is ments. a lengthy and complex document. If, It had been intended to introduce the after having perused the summary, any legislation this session, to move the member would like to study the full second reading, and then adjourn the agreement, I shall be pleased to supply debate until next session so as to enable him with a copy on request. honorable members to study adequately I may add further that every facility the Bill and the agreements appearing will be offered for any honorable mem­ in the schedule. However, it became ber to confer with the chairman of the 3448 .Ministerial [ASSEMBL y. I Statement.

State Electricity Commission on any invitation to confer with officers of the aspects of the agreements concerning State Electricity Commission and of the which he may desire further informa­ State Rivers and Water Supply · tion. I am authorized by my colleague, Commission. the Minister of Water Supply, to say that the chairman of the State Rivers It will be foolish for any Govern­ and Water Supply Commission will ment to introduce a Bill of this nature similarly be available for consultation. during the short autumn sessional Honorable members are aware, of period unless members are supplied with course, that the respective chairmen of the information they desire. I have the two Commissions are Victoria's seen the lengthy agreement in its representatives on the Snowy Mountains roneoed form and also the long Advisory Council. explanatory statement. All mem­ bers will appreciate the explanatory By the time of the· autumn session, statement and the supplementary state­ the decision of the New South Wales ment more than the official agreement, Government in regard to the supplemen­ which is very legal and involved, and tary agreement will probably have been not easily absorbed by laymen. For the made and it should then be possible- to time being, Opposition members are complete the details of Victoria's ratify­ prepared to accept the Minister's offer. ing Bill. In the meantime, I trust that We welcome the supplementary state­ honorable members will have found it ment and look forward to the informa­ possible to study the material which will tion that wrn be made available later. be circulated to them and, if necessary, When the time comes, we can promise to confer with the Government's expert a very interesting debate on the ques­ advisers so that they may be well tion of the ratification of the agreement. prepared for their deliberations on the proposed Bill. Sir HERBERT HYLAND ( Gippsland South) (By leave).-Country party Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the Oppo­ members thank the Minister for his sition).- By leave, I thank the Minister offer, and I personally assure him that of Electrical Undertakings for submit­ we will take advantage of it in order ting this short but pertinent statement to ·.that we may·investigate fully what is pro­ the House at this stage. I think that, posed. Since our inspection of the Snowy without the information which the hon­ mountains scheme we have sought more orable gentleman has offered to supply, and more information on this matter. and which most honorable members We thank the Minister for his unfailing have been anxious to peruse for some courtesy; he has always been straight­ time past, considerable trouble would forward and willing to supply all the in­ be experienced in endeavouring to deal formation available. We know that he adequately with the foreshadowed will honour his off er by furnishing the legislation during the proposed autumn further data we are seeking. session of only a few weeks' duration. This is a very contentious subject in Mr. SCHINTLER (Footscray) .-By many parts of the State. All parties 'leave-- agree that when the agreement is rati­ The SPEAKER (the Hon. W. J. F. fied Victoria wi'll he bound for all time McDonald)-It is unusual for a u by not only to the scheme but also to taking leave " debate to proceed any further electric power from that scheme. than this one has. Opposition members do not desire to debate the statement at this stage other 'Mr. BOLTE.-The Government has no than to express appreciation of the objection to the honorable memlber for frankness displayed by the Minister. It Foot.scray addressing the Chair. is evident that he desires to supply members of this House with the in­ Mr. SCHINTLJER.-As an ordinary formation they are seeking. I am sure member of this House, I wish to en­ that many honorable members will avail dorse the remarks of the previous themselves of the honorable gentleman's speakers, particularly in relation to the Tourist [ 4 DECEMBER) 1957.J Bill. 3449

manner in which the Minister of Electri­ I now move-- cal Undertakings has always approach­ That the interpretation of "Committee" ed any problems placed before him. I, be omitted with the view of inserting the like most other members, realize that following interpretation:- the Snowy mountains agreement is of " Authority" means the Tourist Develop­ the utmost importance because it will ment Authority under this Act. affect a great number of people in their The amendment was agreed to. way of living. When the agreement has been signed by the contracting parties, Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the we witl have to stand by it for all time Opposition).-! move- -or until it is altered. As a back­ That the following interpretations be bench member of this House, I express inserted:- my appreciation to the Minister for the " Public authority" includes- most unusual approach he has adopted to this very important question, by (a) any Government department; giving us a preview of the agreement to (b) the Victorian Railways Commis­ sioners, the State Rivers and be drawn up between the three Govern­ Water Supply Commission, the ments. Country Roads Board, the Forests Commission, the State GRiiEVANOE DAY. Electricity Commission of Victoria, the Melbourne and SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDER. Metropolitan Board of Works, Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). the Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage Trust, any water­ -I move-- works trust or local govern­ That Standing Order No. 273c be sus­ ment body within the meaning pended for to-morrow so far as it requires of the Water Act 1928, the that the first Order of the Day on every council of any municipality, third Thursday sha1l be either Supply or any committee of management Ways and Means and that, on that Order under the Land Acts, and any of the Day being read, the question shall other body of persons corporate be pro.posed that Mr. Speaker do now leave or unincorporate declared by the chair. the Governor in Council by Order published in the Govern­ The motion was agreed to. ment Gazette to be a public authority for the purposes of TOURIST BILL. this Act. The House went into Committee for " Tourist areas " means- the further consideration of this Bill. ( a) a tourist area proclaimed under this Act; Discussion was resumed of clause 2- (b) a tourist area proclaimed under In this Act unless inconsistent with the Part XII. of the Land Act 1928 context or subject-matter- or any corresponding previous " Committee " means the Tourist Develop­ enactment; and ment Advisory Committee under (c) a tourist resort proclaimed under this Act. Part XII. of the Land Act 1928 " Director " means the Director of Tourist or any corresponding previous Development under this Act. enactment. " Fund " means the Tourist Fund under this Act. Clause 7 provides that the Minister may authorize payments out of the Tourist Mr. FRASER (Honorary Mini'ster).­ Fund on the recommendation of the The amendments circulated in my name Tourist Development Authority to have been agreed to following discus­ any public authority or person sions between representatives of the connected with the tourist indus­ Opposition, tihe Country party and try. The Opposition considers that an myself. It is possible that both the interpretation of "public authority" Opposition and the Country party wiU somewhat similar to that contained in move certain other amendments. How­ the National Parks Act 1956, No. 6023, ever, there should be no need for any ought to be included in clause 2. Public lengthy discussion on my proposed authorities will play a great part in the amendments. development of tourist resorts. 3450 Tourist [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ scope. If the Honorary Minister (Mr. ! cannot appreciate the need for the Fraser) is prepared to have the matter amendment, particularly in view of the dealt with in another place, I shall not new clause which it is proposed shall be mind, but I should like to reserve the added to follow clause 6. I have not right to discuss it in the event had an opportunity to discuss the matter of the honorable gentleman not giving with the Leader of the Opposition, but a satisfactory answer as to why the I undertake to have the matter examined definition should not be included. I before the Bill reaches the Council, and should think he could state now whether if there is any merit in his proposal I he has any objection. He did not object shall arrange to have a suitable amend­ to a similar interpretation being ment moved there. included in another Bill last year. The proposed definition is exactly the same, Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the except for the reference to committees Opposition) .-I was under the impres­ of management under the Land Act sion that the Honorary Minister (Mr. 1928. In my opinion, this matter could Fraser) had seen the proposed amend­ be broadened, because the Bill will ments through the agency of the repeal Part XII.-a most important Parliamentary Draftsman, but I am pre­ Part-of the Land Act. Perhaps the pared to accept his explanation and offer. Honorary Minister could state whether There is a .slight difference between the he has any objection to the amendment. interpretation I have proposed and that included in the National Parks Act. Sir ALBERT LIND (Gippsland East). My interpretation incorporates the -I am uncertain about this matter. words "any committee of management Conferences with the Honorary Minister under the Land Act." The reason is have been held, and conclusions have that there is provision in this Bill to been reached on certain matters, includ­ repeal Part XII. of the Land Act, thus ing amendments circulated by the taking out all references to tourist Country party. I regret that the Leader resort areas and certain other defi­ of the Opposition did not raise this nitions. My proposal will cover other matter during the deliberations. Had areas of land that are not normally he done so, members would now be in a under the control and development of better position to debate the question. the tourist committee, which could be I do not suggest that my party would forest land or even land under the con­ oppose it. I appreciate the fact that the trol of the Country Roads Board. Honorary Minister is prepared to con­ Committees of management under the sider the matter, with the Leader of the Land Act have been appointed to manage Opposition, before the Bill is introduced many areas of land throughout the in another place. There should not be State. Of course, the two matters go any doubt about this question when the hand-in-hand. measure is discussed in the other House, as it is undesirable for it to be debated Reference is made in the Bill to the unnecessarily. Now that the sessional Director of National Parks, and it is period is nearing its end, an under­ anticipated that the Act resulting from standing should be reached as quickly the passage of this measure will have as possible. If the Honorary Minister some application to national parks. ensures that members have full infor­ Opposition members believe that, in mation on the subject before the Bill view of the fact that the provisions of reaches another place, the Country clause 7 are to be broadened, the party will be satisfied. expression " public authority " should Mr. SUTTON (Albert Park).-I agree be specifically defined. Organizations with and endorse the views expressed by proposed to be mentioned in clause 7, the Leader of the Opposition. The point to widen its application, would not be raised by the honorable member for restricted by the adoption of my sug­ Gippsland East is pertinent. The matter gestion. Only Departments and bodies would have been discussed, but it covered by the definition of " public appears that the proposals made by· the authority " would come within its Leader of the Opposition with regard to Tourist [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Bill. 3451 the interpretation of " public authority " Mr. WHITE (Ballarat North).-! were omitted from a certain document suggest that the Leader of the Opposi­ presented at the all-party conference. tion accept the off er made by the Hono­ rary Minister. I consider that if the Sir HERBERT HYLAND ( Gippsland matter be attended to in such a way South).-This is a new matter that has before the Bill -is introduced in another been raised, and I do not think there place, all the points raised by the Leader would be any harm in adopting the of the Opposition will be covered. suggestion regarding the definition of " public authority " so long as ample By leave, the amendment was with­ provision is made in the Bill. drawn. Mr. SHEPHERD.-The expression Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the "public authority" is used in clause 7, OpposHion).-It was my intention to and, although the Minister will propose move another amendment with the an amendment to that clause, the words object of inserting in clause 2 a " public authority " will be retained. definition of "Tourist area." Sir HERBERT HYLAND. - Para­ The CHAIRMAN.-! understood that graph ( b) of sub-clause ( 1) of clause 7 the Leader of the Opposition had already states that the Minister may authorize moved it. payment of any amount out of the Mr. SHEPHERD.-! did not read the Tourist Fund, "that is recommended by proposed interpretation. I shall do so the committee to be paid (either by now, and I may agree to withdraw it way of loan or grant) to any public so that the Minister can examine it. authority or to a person connected with I should like to make an explanation so. the tourist industry." There can be no the Minister will know what he has to misunderstanding regarding that. I investigate. The proposed amendment confess that I had not realized the full is that the following interpretation be meaning of clause 7. So long as the inserted at the end of clause 2:­ matter is checked before the Bill is "Tourist area " means- introduced into another place, I consider ( a) a tourist area proclaimed under this that it will be in order. Act; Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ (b) a tourist area proclaimed under Part XII. of the Land Act 1928 or ! have no great objection to the pro­ any corresponding previous enact­ .posed amendment, if H is necessary. ment; and I am inclined to think that -the view (c) a tourist resort proclaimed under of the Parliamentary Draftsman at this Part XII. .of the Land Act 1928 or stage is that the proposed amendment any corresponding previous enact­ to clause 7 is wide enough to include ment. anything. It will cover any public I was eager to have this definition authority, body or organization. included in clause 2 because Part XII. of the Land Act 1928 will be repealed The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Christie).­ and this Bill does not contain any Does tM Leader of the Opposition wish interpretation of "tourist area." All the to withdmw his amendment? work carried out since the constitution Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the of the Tourists' Resorts Committee and Opposition).-! am prepared to do so all the investigations made under the provided that the Honorary Minister Tourists' Resorts Development (Finan­ will postpone the consideration of clause cial) Act, which is also to be repealed, 2 so that it can be discussed again will not be covered by any legislation. before the measure -is passed by ·this I suggest that the features I have House. referred to, including official records, are essential, and must be retained. I The CHAIRMAN.-It is not possible will not move the amendment at this for the consideration of clause 2 to be stage, but I ask the Honorary Minister postponed, as it has already been to give this matter the same considera­ amended. tion that he promised to give the 3452 Tourist [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

previous amendment which I have with­ (iv) one shall ·be ;the Director of National Parks or his drawn. The only reason why this nominee; matter was not discussed at the all­ (v) one shall be the Director of party conference on tourism is that for Fisheries and Game or his the convenience of the Honorary nominee; Minister, the Parliamentary Draftsman (vi) one shall be appointed to drew up a comparative table which set represent organizations out all the features of the important concerned in the develop­ ment of tourist resorts in parts of the Bill and the proposals of Victoria; the Government, the Country .party and (vii) one shall be ,appointed to the Labour party. represent persons having a special interest in the Some important features were high­ publicizing of the tourist lighted at the conference and other mat­ attractions of Victoria; and ters in regard to reserves, definitions of

Sir ALBERT LIND (Gippsland East). The Government Tourist Bureau, of -I have read clause 4 as it appears in course, must be represented, as provided the Bill. The proposed new clause which in the Bill, as also should the Minister has been circulated under my name is as of Public Works. follows:- The proposed new clause makes pro­ B. For the :purposes of this Act there shall be a Tourist Authority consisting of- vision for representation of the Treas­ urer. 'Everyone appreciates the respons­ (a) the Premier or such other Minister as is for the time being .nominated ibility of the Treasurer, and although in iby him who shall be the chairman the Public Works Loan Application Bill of the Authority; and £250,000 is provided for tourist ·purposes (b) six members appointed by the Gover­ -it is greatly appreciated-there .is no nor in Council (hereinafter ·Called the "appointed members") of provision for finance in this Bill, other whom- than the 2 per cent. of the Country (i) one shall ibe nominated ·by the Roads Board's· ·fund. That amount is Treasurer; being distributed to-day on the basis of ( iD one shall be nominated iby the £800 to each municipa'lity, and .is far Commissioner of Public from sufficient. I trust that this clause Works; will be -qmitted so that an opportunity (iii) one shall be nominated by the may be afforded to submit a provision Commissioner of Crown Lands and Survey; designed to make the authority more (iv) one shall be nominated by the representative of the bodies which will Minister of Forests; carry out the work. (v) one shall be the Chairman of the Country Roads Board; Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the (vi) one shall be the manager for Opposition) .-I am amazed that the the time 'being of ·the Gov­ Honorary Minister (Mr. Fraser) has not ernment Tourist Bureau. some explanation to offer. Certain con­ I am sure honorable members fully sultations have been held, and the Oppo­ appreciate the purpose of that proposaf, sition and the Country party appreciate which, if accepted, will ensure that the the views of both the Premier and the tourist authority consists of those who Honorary Minister in regard to the .pro­ over the years have made great contribu­ posed composition of the tourist author­ tions towards establishing the areas ity. The procedure of this House places known to-day as tourist resorts. I was us in the position that unless the Govern­ associated .for many years with the ment is prepared to formally negative Lands Department and with the Forests this clause it must be challenged later Commission. All the areas that will with having departed from an ar­ eventually become recognized and lega­ rangement made by the Honorary lized tourist resorts under this Bill are Minister in charge of the Bill. actually Crown lands. The Forests Com­ Sir ALBERT LIND.-We do not want to mission controls areas of undeveloped do that. country in many places around these tourist resorts, and 'has available the Mr. SHEPHERD.-That is so. All facilities and equipment for combating parties have a right to a point of view. and preventing bush.fires, and for the It is realized that in Committee, numbers construction of roads. I fail to under­ have the greatest effect on the final stand how anyone could find fault with result. However, discussions have pro­ the inclusion of representatives of those ceeded. to a stage where, although there two Departments on the authority. was not complete agreement, at least In the Bill, there is· no reference to the Honorary Minister had gone part of the Country Roads Board, which is the the way to meet the wishes of the road constructing authority in this State. Opposition. It was expected that, I need not labour that point, as all although it might not be agreeable, the honorable members realize that this Government would have backed any authority would not have true action taken by the Honorary Minister representation unless the Country in that direction. The present position Roads Beard were represented. is that the member for Gippsland East Tourist [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Bill. 3455 cannot move an amendment. If he which to do that would be for the could move his proposed new clause as Government to accept amendments in an amendment, the position would be another place. I am not making any clarified, but if the Government does threats, but the Government is insistent not formally negative this clause the that the proposed authority should not promises made last night cannot be be constituted entirely of departmental included in the Bill because the clause representatives. An amendment with as it stands would become part of the that objective will not be accepted. The Bill. The only course open is to move Honorary Minister (Mr. Fraser) has an amendment on the third reading. gone much further than I would have The honorable member for Gippsland gone in agreeing to requests by other East cannot move for the insertion of parties. He took that action unbeknown the new clause to replace a clause to me, but the Government proposes to carried in Committee. Up to date, the honour the ·promises he made. That is Honorary Minister has made no state­ the last word, and I do not want to enter ment in relation to this matter, although into an acrimonious discussion about it. he has had the opportunity to do so. The Government has agreed to most of This clause is of great importance to the suggestions without undue argu­ all parties in this House. Perhaps even ment, and in regard to the constitution now the Honorary Minister could state of the authority we are prepared to the Government's attitude in connexion meet the requests that have been made with the composition of the proposed to a certain degree but not to the full tourist authority. extent. Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). Mr. WHITE (Ballarat North).­ -As the Leader of the Opposition has ! am certain now that the Premier does said, it is true that the position is fairly not clearly understand what happened difficult. The honorable member for yesterday at the conference attended by Gippsland East has foreshadowed an representatives of all parties. The amendment which he knows the Honorary Minister (Mr. Fraser) agreed Government cannot or will not accept. to the deletion of· certain persons re· Therefore, if the Government negatived ferred to in paragraph (b) of clause 4. this clause it would not be with the view of accepting such an amendment. Mr. FRASER.-Subject to certain conditions. Mr. SHEPHERD.-No, but last night Mr. WHITE.-It was agreed that you did accept every one. reference to the nominee of the Minister Mr. BOLTE.-! do not know whether of Transport, the Director of National there has been some misunderstanding, Parks or his nominee, and the Director but the conferences that have been held of Fisheries and Game or his nominee regarding this particular clause also be deleted. I think this matter should be dealt with other aspects of the Bill. ironed out so that honorable members generally will have a clear picture when Mr. SHEPHERD.-That is true. amendments are moved later. It may Mr. BOLTE.-The other amendments be that all parties will agree to the agreed to were all in the course of being proposals of the Honorary Minister even moved or adopted. In the case of this though they may not be in keeping with particular clause, the Government did the agreements reached yesterday. offer the Opposition and the Country Therefore, I think members of the party an amended authority, but not on Committee should be told the full story the same basis as that provided in the of what happened at the conference. amendment foreshadowed by the honor­ The Premier's remarks in regard to the able member for Gippsland East. The last word are not in accord with what Government · is prepared to drop one happened at the conference. I think the member from this authority, or to Honorary Minister should make a full replace two members, but that is explanation to the Committee of the as far as it is prepared to go. intention of the Government regarding I should think the satisfactory way in the personnel to comprise this authority. 3456 Tourist [ASSEMBLY. J Bill.

Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ Mr. SHEPHERD. - Another confer­ The discussions on clause 4 were held ence will have to be held because it is with the idea of obtaining unanimity. obvious that the views of the Honorary It was with great reluctance that I Minister do not coincide with those of accepted the suggestion that the word other honorable members. Before the " Premier " be deleted and the word Bill is dealt with in another place, there " Treasurer " be inserted. I did will have to be further negotiations in agree that the nominee of the Minister an endeavour to obtain a unanimous of Transport be replaced by the man­ approach. The Opposition is not happy ager of the Victorian Government with clause 4 as at present drafted. In Tourist Bureau, and to the deletion of regard to the proposed tourist authority, the Director of Fisheries and Game we would not have some of the people and the Director of National Parks, and who were suggested as members, al­ that nominees of the Minister of Lands though we did not object to these and the Minister of Forests be appointed representatives being on an advisory in their stead. In a further effort to committee. obtain unanimity, I agreed to the de­ letion of a representative of one of the Mr. FRASER.-Will the Leader of the three outside organizations. When the Opposition accept the authority on the conference was unable to reach unanim­ basis that I have suggested? ity, I said that I was forced into the Mr. SHEPHERD.-! am not sure of position of proceeding with the Bill, on that basis now because it does not the basis that the advisory committee appear to coincide with what was agreed as constituted by clause 4 would stand to last night. unless there was unanimity before the Biil was dealt with in another place. If The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Christie).­ that unanimity were achieved, the Gov­ Order! It is not now possible to amend ernment would agree to accept certain paragraph (a) of clause 4, but it is amendments. competent for the Committee to amend paragraph (b). The proposal circulated Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the was that clause 4 be negatived and a Opposition).-The Honorary Minister is new clause substituted. not far wrong in regard to what occur­ red last night during the discussions. Sir ALBERT LIND (Gippsland East). He did agree to many things, but he -If possible, I should like to avoid the would not accede to the request that the procedure suggested by you, Mr. Chair­ representatives of all outside bodies be man, because the Leader of the Opposi­ deleted. He agreed that one be omitted. tion and I have, up to a point, reached That was confirmed later in a discussion an u~derstanding on this matter. We with the Premier. The position now is still believe that the spirit of negotiation that the Honorary Minister has indicated is not dead, and, in view of the import­ that the Government is prepared to ance .of this measure, it might be pos­ amend clause 4 if unanimity is reached, sible to discuss the question at a further but if that does not occur he is not conference between parties. Conse­ prepared to grant any of the concessions quently, I should like to suggest that that he agreed to last night. If clause 4 this clause be postponed to enable fur­ i.s not negatived, it will be shown that ther discussions to take place, from :ne Honorary Minister is not sincere in which may emerge something of real his approach to this problem. The value. Premier has offered to re-examine the matter before the Bill is dealt with in Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). another place. -'-I do not object to a postponement of the clause to enable a further discussion Mr. BOLTE.-! am prepared to accept to be held on the matter. The spirit of amendments from the Opposition or negotiation certainly is not dead, but it from the Country party if they are in appears to me, having regard to the line with the agreement arrived at last' concessions already made by the Honor­ night. ary Minister (Mr. Fraser), that unless. Tourist [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Bill. 3457 the Government "goes all the way," Op­ would enable the various parties to dis­ position members and members of the cuss the matter further. It would help Country party will not be satisfied. Not the debate on the Bill and save con­ only in connexion with this clause, but siderable time later. also in relation to other clauses the The CHAIRMAN (Mr. Christie).­ honorable gentleman has already gone ! am prepared to adopt the Minister's at least half way in meeting the ·wishes suggestion if it complies with the wishes of the Opposition and the Country of the Committee. party. If there is to be a further dis­ cussion on the matter, it must be The sitting was suspended at 12.36 realized that the Government also has a p.rn. until 2.5 p.m. point of view, which must be the basis l\lr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ of any common understanding that may In view of the debate that took place be reached. If no satisfactory agree­ earlier, perhaps I should now indicate ment can be obtained between parties, that during the suspension of the sitting the Government reserves the right to further discussions have taken place deal with the Bill in conformity with its between myself and representatives of own wishes. the Opposition and the Country party, The CHAIRMAN (M:r. Christie).-. and I ·think we have now reached This clause has already been amended, common agreement. Therefore, I desire and therefore it cannot be postponed. to move-- There is no alternative at this stage That paragraph (b) be omitted with the · other than to put to the Committee the view of inserting the following para­ question that the clause be agreed to. graphs:- However, it would be in order to re­ " ( ) eight members appointed 1by the Governor in Council (hereinafter commit clause 4 later, or, alternatively, called the "appointed members") to deal further with it during the third­ of whom- reading stage. (i) one shall be nominated ·iby the Treasurer; Mr. SHEPHE.RD (Leader of the (ii) one shall be nominated by Opposition) .-Certain difficulties would the Commissioner of Pub­ lic Works; be encountered in adopting the pro­ (iii) one shall .be nominated by cedure suggested by you, Mr. Chairman. the· Commissioner of Crown Consequent amendments in regard to Lands and Survey; the proposed Advisory Committee are (iv) one shall be nominated ;by contemplated by Opposition members, the Minister o.f Forests; and they are tied up with this clause. ( v) one shall be the Chairman of the Country Roads Board If the clause, as it stands, is adopted, or his nominee; many of the persons whom I desire (vi) one shall be the Manager of should be represented on the suggested the Government Tourist advisory committee would have to be Bureau or his nominee; replaced by other persons. I should have (vii> one shall be appointed to represent country munici­ thought that the Government would in­ palities; troduce an amendment based on last (viii) one shall be appointed to night's agreement, at the same time represent persons having a adhering to its own policy regarding the special interest in the publicising of the tourist two outside bodies. Had that course attractions of Victoria." been followed, the Committee would have had something concrete to debate Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the to-day. Opposition) .-The Opposition is in per­ fect agreement with this proposal. We Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ believe that the spirit of conciliation and It is my desire that we make some pro­ arbitration in discussions of the nature gress with this Bill, and, having regard that have ensued can save time and to the thoughts expressed this morning, avoid acrimonious debate. In the it may be desirable at this stage for the circumstances, the Opposition has no Committee to adjourn for lunch. This hesitation in supporting the amendment. 3458 Tourist [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

Sir ALBERT LIND ( Gippsland East). to the fa.ct that this Bill deals not only -Naturally, I am pleased with the result with the development of tourist resorts, of the negotiations that have ·taken .place but also with the development of the between the three parties. In all sin­ tourist industry. I believe that represen­ cerity I can say that we appreciate tatives of the Country party particularly what the Honorary Minister (Mr. directed their attention only to Fraser), who is in charge of the Bill, the development of tourist resorts. was prepared to do. At one stage, I Yet, there has been abundant was worried as I thought that a Bill evidence produced throughout the debate might be passed which would not be to of the terrific potential that is available the taste of the people most interested for the development of ;the tourist in tourism. More than that, I thought industry. ·I fear that that part of the it would not reflect to the credit of this purpose of the Bill has been largely lost Parliamentary institution. As a result to sight. of goodwill in the course of negotiations, the conference has agreed to place Upon examination of the composition in the Bill just what we were attempting of the authority, one finds ·that out of to have inserted at the outset. eight representatives, six and a half will represent Government Departments or Mr. SUTTON (Albert Park).-The instrumentalities. I suggest that the result of the negotiations exemplifies representative of the municipalities can the desirability of hoJding conferences be taken as representing a Government between the :parties when Bills of this instrumentality in half of his capacity nature are under discussion. Earlier and the other half on the tourist develop­ in the debate, I said that the Honorary ment side. That leaves one representa­ Minister (Mr. Fraser) would prove tive who should have a better apprecia­ amenable to reason, ibut that he was tion of the development of the tourist a very formidable opponent in debate. .industry. I believe this House should It is good ·to know that unanimity has take particular cognizance of the fact been reached. Every honorable member that in introducing this Bill .the Govern­ wanted the Bill and appreciated the ment is attempting to develop the tourist necessity for attracting tourists to this industry and to attract to our State a country, especially those from the other great deal more money from overseas. side of the Pacific. From the outset, I do not want to repeat all the informa­ the Opposition's only. motive in entering tion that has been put before honorable the discussions on the measure was to members during the currency of this improve the Bill. By the good graces debate, but I do not consider that the of those with whom we have negotiated, tourist industry can develop without con­ I believe we now have a remarkably good siderable assistance 'from outside bodies. measure. For my own part, I wou'ld rather have seen appointed the type of committee Mr. RAFFERTY (Caulfield).-! agree initially proposed by the Government. with the remarks of other members who However, unanimity has been reached have spoken on this amendment. It is on this proposal and I wish to record pleasing to see that some degree of those few thoughts on the amendment. unanimity has been reached. I was rather amazed, however, at the attitude Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader ·of the adopted by speakers on behalf of the Opposition).-! wish to refer briefly to Country party, and, for that matter, the comments made by the honorable those speaking for the Opposition, in the member for Caulfield. I want him to initiai stages of this debate, when they know that at the conference all aspects apparently wished to confine member­ of this Bill were considered and that ship of the proposed authority to per­ discussions were not confined merely to sons representing, in the main, Govern­ the composition of the proposed author­ ment instrumentalities. Their point has ity. As this Committee 'further con­ partly been gained now because of the siders the Bill, the honorable member reorganization. However, I should like for Caulfield may gather that we dis­ to direct the attention of the Committee cussed matters appertaining to the very Tourist [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Bill. 3459 points he has raised. The tourist resorts proposal to which the Premier later in this State are governed by committees agreed. Therefore, the amendment is of management which, in the main, really being submitted on behalf of the represent the munidpalities scattered Country party. throughout Victoria. It wi'll ibe found The amendment w'as agr~ed to, and that many of the amendments I had the clause, as amended, was adopted. proposed to submit will now be varied or withdrawn because in this unanimous Clauses 5 and 6 were consequentially compromise we were able to cover amended and, as amended, adopted. many of the matters to which the Oppo­ Clause 7, providing, inter alia- sition intended to direct attention. The (1) The Minister may authorize payment proposed authority will have elasticity of any amount out of the fund- in developing the points of view that we at one time desired to write into the (b) that is recommended by the Com­ mittee to be pa-id (either by way Bill as hard and fast provisi·ons. Whilst of loan or grant) to any public the honorable member for Caulfield may authority or to a person connected think that the Government is sacrificing with the tourist industry if the some points of view, I point out that Minister is satisfied that such payment is for the establishment unless somebody gives way on some construction development improve­ point or other at a conference, there is ment or maintenance of works or no hope of reaching a unanimous deci­ ·facilities in relation to tourist sion. We are very happy about the resorts and would be an improve­ ment to the tourist facilities of position now and were so pleased with Victoria. the result of the conference that we had no objecUon to the Honorary Minister Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ (Mr. Fraser) moving the amendment. ! move- Had members of the Lalbour party or That paragraph (b) of sub-clause (1) be omitted with the view of inserting the the Country party been selfish they following paragraph:- might have sought to do so. However, ( ) that is recommended by the nobody felt that that course should be Authority to be paid (either by taken. This is a Government Bi'll and way of loan or grant) to any if it is passed by this Chamber in a public authority body or organiza­ reas·onalble form it may be passed in the tion if the Minister is satisfied that such payment is for the establish­ other House in a short space of time ment construction development and without amendment. However, I improvement or maintenance of do not wish to raise any controversy. works or faciliHes in relation to We support the amendment. tourist travel or tourist resorts and would be an improvement to the Mr. WHITE (Ballarat North).-! re­ tourist facilities of Victoria. mind the honorable member for Caul­ Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the field t'hat the Country party is just as Opposition) .-I am pleased that the keen as is the Government in wishing to Honorary Minister has se~n fit to amend see the 'f.ourist Bill passed in the best this paragraph because in the early form possible. From the outset, we stages of the debate it appeared that have tried to do that. The remarks of the intention was that the Minister, on the Premier prior to the suspension of receipt of a recommendation from the sitting were interesting. At that stage, committee-now the authority-could it appeared to be impossible to reach by way of loan or grant make money unanimity amongst the three parties. available to a public authority or to a However, a further conference was held person. The Opposition was opposed to with the Honorary Minister (Mr. that procedure and I had intended to Fraser) and I believe that. as a result, submit an appropriate amendment. The the best possible authority will be amendment now being considered adds appointed. Therefore, the Premier is the words " body or " to those or­ wrong in saying that the Country party ganizations "that may receive money for does not favour what is now proposed. tourist purposes. I should like the As a matter of fact, it was a member Minister to inform the Committee of the of the Country party who suggested the widest possible interpretation of those 3460 Tourist [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. words. I believe that the use of the collections from motor registration fees word " organization " gives great scope. or from the Country Roads Board Fund. I am wondering whether the Govern­ However, the position has now changed. ment has laid down a pattern as to how I shall move another amendment to this the money could be made available and clause later on. what type of body or organization will Sir ALBERT LIND (Gippsland East). receive it. Doubtless, the Minister con­ -I can appreciate the views of the siders that he is protected because he Leader of the Opposition, and I do not cannot take action· until a recommenda­ want this money to be used for other tion is made. We must have confidence than tourist ·purposes. Sub-clause ( 1) in the authority, but it may recommend of clause 7 provides that the Minister that a loan be made available to a body may authorize the payment of any of which the Minister does not approve. amount out of the fund that is required The honorable gentleman may be able to carry out any measures recommended to tell the Committee how far the by the authority for the publicizing and Government would go in that direction. development of the tourist industry. Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ Provision has now been made in the The Leader of the Opposition has Public Works Loan Application Bill practically answered his own question. (No. 2) for £250,000 to be made avail­ What he says is true, and the fact that able for tourist purposes. In carrying the Government will have confidence in out the provisions of this Bill the Gov­ the authority will be a guarantee that ernment will, willingly or otherwise, use public money will not be misused. The the money more particularly for grants desire of the Government is to stimulate than for loans. I consider that, for the tourist industry, and it may become the development of tourist resorts, necessary to assist organizations other grants only and not loans should be than public bodies or utilities, such as made available because, in the main, municipalities, in an endeavour to en­ the .tourist resorts belong to the Crown. courage the development of a tourist I admit that certain private institutions industry in a worth-while manner. may be considered to be tourist attrac­ Hr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the tions, but the real purpose of this Bill Opposition) .-I thank the Honorary is to develop the natural tourist resoTts Minister for his interpretation. The of Victoria. I wish to say calmly and Minister is not compelled to make an in all sincerity that I believe the Govern­ advance even though it is recommended ment fully appreciates the purposes of by the authority, so there is a two-way the Bill. Furthermore, when the mea­ protection. However, I believe it will sure is enacted, I shall be happy to help be advisable to watch the workings of the Government to implement it along the new authority and the way in which the lines that will reflect the intention this money is spent. At one stage the of Parliament. I am prepared to leave Opposition intended to move an amend­ the matter, with confidence, in the ment because it was considered that this hands of the Honorary Minister. money should not be made avaHable by Mr. SUTTON (Albert Park) .-This way of loan except under certain condi­ amendment involves much more than tions. Having re-examined the ma.tter, attention to tourist resorts, however I do not now intend to proceed with the worthy and necessary that matter may amendment circulated in my name. be. I thought the honorable member However, I believe that the money for Gippsland East was concentrating should not be loaned :at a cheaper rate too much upon tourist resorts whereas than that at which it is borrowed. I, perhaps, was apt to over-emphasize When my amendment was discussed by other aspects. Opposition members, it was not known that money was to be made available The amendment was agreed to. under the PubUc Works Lo'1n Applica­ Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the tion Bill (No. 2) for tourist purposes. I Opposition) .-I understand the point of did not want any moneys to be made view expressed by the honorable mem­ available for loan purposes from the ber for Gippsland East, and believe the Tourist [4 DECE~BER, 1957.] Bill. 3461

Government would give an undertaking discussion concerning the sum of to spend more than the sum of £80,000 £80,000, which represents 2 per cent. of that has been mentioned. I am not the total money made available to the happy at the t..liought of having the text Country Roads Board. However, as time -0f my amendment written into the legis­ passes, that percentage may amount to lation needlessly, but there is always a £90,000 or an even larger sum. The new possibility of a change of Government Tourist Development Authority will not and it may be that at sometime in the only develop new tourist resorts but will future less than 2 per cent. of the wish to spend money on existing areas, Country Roads Board Fund could be and, if that task is well done, more than spent on existing tourist resorts and the equivalent of the 2 per cent. will be those to be so proclaimed. Perhaps the needed. Honorary Minister will indicate whether he accepts the following amendment, Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ which I now move:- ! appreciate the remarks of the Leader of the Opposition, but suggest that he That the following sub-clause be added to the clause:- should not persist in his amendment for the reason that I readily give an assur­ ( ) An amount not less than the ance that an amount equivalent to not amount paid into the Tourist Fund in each year pursuant to sub-section (2) less than 2 per cent. of the sum ·collected of the ne~t succeeding section shall be under the Motor Car Acts will be made applied for the development of tourist available for the sole purpose of cover­ areas. ing the grants made in the past to the In other words, there will be preserved Tourists' Resorts Committee. Further, for all time the same work as has been I point out that my undertaking is pro­ carried out with the same percentage tected by the personnel of the Tourist of money that had been allocated in Development Authority that has been -each year by the Tourists' Resorts Com­ agreed upon. The members of that mittee. I think it would be an indication Authority are familiar with this work. of the sincerity of the Government if Further, the Minister can make grants it indicated that it intended, thraugh only upon the recommendation of that the new authority and on the advice Authority. For those reasons, I believe given to the Minister to at least main­ the position is well covered. tain and perhaps expand that work in Sir AI~BERT LIND (Gippsland East). all. parts of Vkto·ria. I should have -I believe there is pmtection under sub­ liked to see more work carried out in clause ( 3) of clause 8 to safeguard any the outer metropolitan and inner weaknesses there might be with respect country areas, but I think Parliament to the basis for distribution of the has more or less handed over its rights money to be made available. I am for the development of beach fronts and confident that the members of the the provision of facilities to the Mel­ tourist authority, who have had con­ bourne and Metropolitan Board of siderable experience, will take proper Works, which body has been entrusted care of the situation and ensure that with the control of foreshores. I agree the equivalent -of the 2 per cent. alloca­ with the honorable member for Caulfield that, forgetting the tourist aspect for a tion from the Country Roads Board Fund, plus the additional advance of moment, this measure will probably al­ £250,000 will be well applied. low a larger allocation from the Country Roads Board Fund and from the loan Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the allocation for use on foreshore work Opposition)-! appreciate the Honorary outside the metropolis, while metro­ Minister's reply, and accept his assur­ politan ratepayers will have to pay ance. I wish the Committee to know for reclamation of the foreshore within that when my amendment was drafted the metropolis. The present Govern­ the proposed constitution of the con­ ment sponsored the relevant legislation, trolling body was somewhat different but when it was being discussed Opposi­ from what it is now. Furthermore, no tion members directed attention to the mention had been made of an allocation dangers involved. There has been some from loan funds. The honorable 3462 Tourist [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. member for Gippsland East referred to Part XII. of the Land Act 1928, the clause 8. but that clause does not provide Tourists' Resorts Development Act 1938, for the expenditure of any money. In and the Tourists' Resorts (Financial) clause 9 provision is made with respect Act 1949 there would be little refer­ to payments out of the fund, while ence to the particular areas that in the clause 7 empowers the Minister to past have been regarded as tourist a.uthorize loans or grants from the fund. areas and tourist resorts. It is true that With the permission of the Committee, I had prepared in my name an amend­ I should like to withdraw my amend­ ment which would have the effect of ment. empowering the Authority to reserve in By leave, the amendment was with­ perpetuity those areas that have already drawn. been proclaimed, to revoke any pro­ The clause was consequentially clamations that now obtain, and to pro­ amended, and, as amended, adopted. claim new tourist areas, but because of the Honorary Minister's assurance, I do Clause 8 (Tourist Fund). not intend to proceed with it. Mr. WffiTE (Ballarat North).­ The clause was agreed to, as was ! think one of the most outstanding clause 11. features associated with this Bill has Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ been the announcement by the Honorary ! propose the following new clause, to Minister that a sum of £250,000 will be follow clause 6:- made available to the Tourist Fund· from AA. (1) There shall be a chief executive loan allocations. One of the principal offic·er of .the Authority who shall be known reasons for this decision was the special as the Director of Tourist Development. reference made by the Country party to <2> The Director shall be appointed the need for a larger allocation than 2 under and pursuant to the provisions of per cent. from the Country Roads Board the Public Service Acts and shall subject to the Minister be r·esponsible for the ad­ Fund. The measure now acquires a ministration of this Act. compl~tely new complexion. (3) For the purposes of this Act and The clause was agreed to, as was subject to the Public Service Acts there may be appointed a secretary to the Autho­ clause 9. rity and such other officers as ar·e required. Clause 10 ( Oonsequential reipeal'S and In the title omit "Tourist Development amendments). Advisory Committee" and insert "Tourist Development Authority." Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ It might be appropriate for me, at this The purpose of this amendment is to make it clear that the director is an point, to inform the Committee that the Leader of the Opposition had some re­ executive officer of the Authority and servations about accepting this clause. not the director of the Authority. Indeed, an amendment which he had The new clause was agreed to. circulated in his name would have Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ altered it considerably. However, I ! propose the following new clause, to have given an undertaking to the Leader follow clause 9:- of the Opposition that the subject mat­ BB. For the purposes of this Act the ter of his proposed amendment will be Minister either on his own motion or on one of the first items referred to the the re'commendation of the Authority may new Authority, and, after hearing its appoint committees to be known as the Tourist Development Advisor.y Committee views, consideration will be given to and the Tourist Publicity Advisory bringing down an amending measure Committee. . during the next autumn session. The object of the new clause is to enable Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the the Minister to take advantage of advice Opposition). - I thank the Honorary of· persons not represented on the Minister for his courtesy, not-only dur­ authority on various aspects in respect ing the Committee discussion, but also of which they ~re experts. I take this at the various conferences we. had in opportunity of expressing· my apprecia­ connexion with the provisions of the tion to those honorable members who Bill. I always feared that by repealing negotiated in connexion with the Bill. Tourist [ 4 DECEMBER} 1957.J Bill. 3463

The discussions were, in effect, con­ amending legislation in the immediate ducted by an all-party committee which future. In view of that, I do not wish had the object of making the legislation to proceed with the foreshadowed new really worth while. I am .grateful for the clause. generous and gracious manner in which The Bill was reported to the House my views were met and the kind with amendments, including an amended remarks made concerning myself. title, and the amendments were adopted. Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ Opposition) .-The new clause is accept­ ! move- able to the Opposition. We believe that, That this Bill be now read a third time. irrespective of the constitution of the Mr. CHRISTIE (Ivanhoe).-There is authority, advantage should be taken of no other course open to me but to the experience and knowledge of experts support the motion, .but after having in the various fields of tourism. It was observed the working of the machinery obvious to me that it would be necessary of this House for about two and a half to interchange some of the personnel I years I feel I could not omit to mention included in my proposed amendment that those who have been interested in relating to the two committees. The the Bill fvom the beginning could not system will be more flexible with the possibly recognize it now as the measure Minl.ster having the opportunity of his that went into Committee. I speak from own volition to select specialized years of experience in the tourist indus­ advisers on publicity-including press, try, and I am .aware that there is an radio and television-relating to trans­ accumulation of such experience and port, standards of accommodation and knowledge on the Government side of so on. I trust that full use will be made the House. One is not permitted to refer of the provision. There are many to what occurred in Committee, but I people in the community who, without ask whether the experience and know­ any idea of financial gain, would be ledge of members who sit on the back prepared to contribute plans and ideas benches on the Government side were to stimulate the tourist industry. The used in Committee to achieve the results Opposition thanks the Honorary Minis­ now embodied in the Bill, or whether ter (Mr. Fraser) for the consideration those results were achieved by methods he has displayed. used outside the Committee or the House Sir ALBERT LIND (Gippsland East). without full and open discussion ensuing. -I have great pleasure in expressing Mr. BROSE.-What are you :implying? the desire of my party to co-operate with the Honorary Minister (Mr. Mr. CHRISTiiE.-I am implying that Fraser) in his desire to make use of the amendments could not have been individual and collective ideas · of a incorporated in the Bill in the way in number of people on tourism. Of course, which they 'have !been if the accumulated the Director of Tourist Development knowledge and experience of the tourist will be subservient to the authority. industry of honorable members gener­ The Country party thanks the Honorary ally had been used in Committee. The Minister for the co-operative spirit he main purpose of the Bi'll now :is to has displayed in connexion with the Bill. develop tourist resorts under the control We trust that its operation will in due largely of public servants. The Bill has course reflect great credit on this House. been materially changed in Committee. Originally it was a measure with a very The new clause was agreed to. great purpose, namely, to develop 1!1e Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the tourist industry. To aver that the tourist Opposition).-The Honorary Minister industry cannot be developed unless a has undertaken to refer to the bricklayer is represented ·on the author­ authority for report certain points ity, because hotels and toilet faciliti~s I made during the second-reading must be built at tourist resorts, :is debate which were embodied in the last just as valid an argument as it is propos~d new ·clause circulate? in my to assert that the chairman of the Coun­ name, and, if necessary, to mtroduce try Roads Board should be a member 3464 Tourist LASSEMBLY.] Bill.

because roads must be built. If it is de­ did not hear any honorable member sired to run the tourist industry properly say that he would be an acquisition to people who know what that industry it. ·I cast no reflection on Mr. Crosbie is should be chosen for the task. The Morrison. At one stage the Premier took chairman of the Country Roads Board a strong stand to the effect that at least knows how to build roads, but does he two of the three outside authorities, and know how the tourist industry of the no others, would be acceptable to him. world works? That has not been varied in any Mr. SHEPHERD.-The Liberal party way except that a representative of the Government made a tourist of him. country municipalities was included; all members of the Authority will have Mr. SUTTON.-Where is this pool of some connexion with the tourist experience? industry in their association with Mr. CHRISTIE.-! make it plain that committees of management of resorts this House cannot recognize in the and reservations. Apart from a new measure now before it the Bill that went clause 3, which has not altered the sense into Committee. of the original provision to any great Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the extent, and the acceptance by the Opposition).-! never take any notice of Government of a recommendation that the length of experience of any member was moved by the Honorary Minister of Parliament. If he is an elected rep­ concerning advisory committees, the Bill resentative of the people it does not has not been fundamentally altered. In matter whether he has been here for effect, the honorable member for Ivanhoe 50 years or for five minutes; he is has expressed want of confidence in his own Government, in the Cabinet and entitled to express his opinion on any 1 subject that is being debated. When in the Honorary Minister who is in this Parliament is making laws it has charge of the Bill. I agree with him the right officially, unofficially, or in any that the forms and processes of Parlia­ other way to draw upon the experience ment that were used to enable the three of any person or organization associated parties to get together and amend the with Government Departments or out­ Bill in the way it has been amended have side. If the honorable member for been rather complicated. If the honor­ Ivanhoe is correct in his assertion that able member for Ivanhoe, who is Chair­ this Bill is not recognizable from that man of Committees, can assure me that which was read a first time, I would be there is a better means by which Parlia­ on his side, but the honorable member ment can unravel the tangled theories does not realize how fortunate the held by the representatives of the various Government is to have the Bill passed, or parties, I shall be glad to hear of it. I how closely it resembles the measure as assure him that individual members introduced to the House. Only about have been imbued with the one idea of three ·changes have lbeen made in the formulating a Bill that will enable the membership of the authority. The tourist industry of the State to be Government, not the Opposition, sug­ developed. Representatives of the three gested that certain representatives be parties sat in conference and each gave placed on the authority, one of whom away a little in order that they might was to be a Minister acting on behalf report to Parliament that they had of the Premier and another to be nomin­ agreed upon proposals that would enable ated by the Minister of Transport. The the measure to be proceeded with. .Person taking the latter's place is the Long before the Government goes to manager of the Victorian Government the country, the people of Victoria will Tourist Bureau. be told that this Bill represents one of Mr. FRASER.-He would have been the the most outstanding pieces of legisla­ nominee, in any case. tion ever introduced in this Parliament. Mr. SHEPHERD.-The Bill also in­ It will be asserted that it follows up the cluded the Commissioner of Public efforts of the Victoria Promotion Com­ Works. The Director of National Parks mittee which was brought into being by is not a member of the Authority, but I the Premier. It will be claimed also Tourist [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Bill. 3465 that it is an indication that the Liberal Mr. LOVEGROVE (Carlton).-! party wants to do something to knock congratulate the occupants of the Trea­ over the " knockers." The Labour party sury bench and sympathize with those has often been referred to in those members on the Government back terms, but on this occasion it co-operated benches. As the honorable member for with the Government and beyond any Rodney was speaking, I made a rough doubt helped to pass through this count of the amendments to this mea­ Chamber legislation that will not be sure and found that thirteen were sub­ a.I tered in another place. mitted by the Honorary Minister (Mr. At a critical stage of the debate last Fraser), six by the Country party and night, a Government supporter said, in seventeen by the Opposition. Out of the effect, that if the Government did not varied and contentious points of view get what it wanted with this Bill it expressed, a composite measure has would proceed no further with it. We emerged without a charge being levelled knew what was meant. Some persons at any section of the House of having would suffer. Those who were keen to attempted to make of the Bill a political develop the tourist industry would have issue. I think I can say that, because I to wait until some other time when am one of those members who have perhaps another Parliament might con­ reservations regarding the propriety of sider other legislation. another place to curtail programmes laid down in this House. I am not worried about the point of view expressed by the honorable member During the debate on this Bill, two for Ivanhoe. If he considered there was theories were put forward. One was anything wrong with the procedure that we should attempt to go " flat out " adopted, he should have made arrange­ to attract the international tourist trade, ments to leave the Chair and address and I assume that is what the honorable the Committee, as he did on another members for Ivanhoe and Caulfield were occasion. He has only commented on referring to in their remarks. It was the matter, and I take it that he is not also expressed that Parliament should objecting to the Bill being read a third endeavour to do something to cater for time. Victorians and other Australians who Mr. BROSE (Rodney).-! am a desired the establishment of fadlities little curious as to why the honorable so that they might take their families member for Ivanhoe has spoken in the out into the open air whenever possible. manner he has, but he is entitled to Whilst it is true that certain facilities express his views. His chief bone of have already been made available to contention seems to be that the Bill cater for the international tourist trade, will not be passed in the form in which it will not be possible to do much in it was presented. I can only assure him that direction from the initial grant that that happens to many Bills. I point of £250,000 and an annual subsidy of out that in this particular case the Bill approximately £80,000. It is utterly presented to Parliament did not meet the ridiculous at this stage of the State's wishes of a great number of members, financial predicaments, which are many, and I hope that similar methods to to expect the Government to be in a those adopted in regard to this Bill will position to finance anything that will apply in the future. Conferences were be of great value to the development held with the Honorary Minister in of interniation,al tourism. I strongly charge of the measure until a com­ disagree with the view expressed earlier pr·omise was reached which enabled the by the honorable member for St. Kilda, Bill to be amended to the satisfaction of who suggested that we should attract the House as a whole. There is nothing wealthy Americans to visit this State by paying their fares from Sydney to w~ong with that procedure. I agree with the Leader of the Opposition that Melbourne. I have never heard of it was the wish of most honorable mem­ 1anything more ridiculous. bers that the Bill should be improved in Mr. SHEPHERD.-He did not propose such a way as to make it satisfactory to to pay their fares back to Sydney ; the people of Victoria. apparently they were to walk. 3466 Tourist [ASSEMBLY.] Bill.

Mr. LOVEGROVE.-The proposition Mr. Moss.-! think he was the was utterly absurd, from a business architect of the Bill. point of view. What could be done to attract international tourists is to Mr. WHITE.-If that was the case provide a limited number of fairly good I am thankful that the architect was residential sites, fit them with facilities sacked, because other members on the and link them with good highways, so Government side of the House have at that visitors could have easy access. least had the common sense to meet The financial limitations imposed on members ·of the Opposition and the Victoria render it impossible to do much Country party in an effort to fashion more for that section of the tourist a Bill that will be welcomed by the trade. I believe there is a definite people of Victoria. Apparently the lack of facilities for the average man honorable member for Ivanhoe believes who endeavours to take his family that only the Government back-benchers touring by car in Victoria or interstate. have any knowledge of tourism. Quite It is impossible for the average wage frankly, now that the Bill has passed earner to accommodate his family at an the second-reading and Committee hotel, and consequently he uses the stages, I do not think it is tactful for facilities provided by motels. Steps back-benchers on the Government side should be taken to provide better to critkize it. They should have spoken facilities for overnight accommodation during the second-reading debate or in throughout the Snate. the Committee stage if they felt they were in a position to improve the Bill. Reference has been made by members of the Country party to the need to They are now attempting to decry the develop many of our parks and othe.r measure at a stage when they know tourist resorts in country centres. they cannot alter it. Caravan parks obviously are sadly Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ neglected because the focal municipali­ ! want to say ·nhat I agree with the ties have not the requisite financial Leader of the Opposition, who said resources for their proper maintenance that ihe considered this to be a re­ and development. Despite the limita­ markable Bill. It is remarkable tions I have outlined, I am satisfied that inasmuch as it has virtually achieved this Bill will do more to cater for the the impossible. Over the last three average Victorian than any other weeks many honorable members measure that has been considered in the thought we would not be successful in last few years. passing a tourist measure during the Mr. WHITE (Ballarat North).-! current sessional period, and that view believe that the honorable member for was even canvassed in the press. The Ivanhoe cast a reflection not only on Premier and I were faced with the the members who represented their alternative of having a Bill that met respective parties at the conferences the wishes of all parties or no Bill held to iron out the problems in this at all. The achievement of successful Bill, but also on Parliament itself. I results is due solely to the work of remind him that at one of the con­ representatives of all parties who ferences on the Bill, the Premier acted wanted a tourist Bill. Anybody who as chairman. Therefore, if anything has a knowledge of the original Bill and improper was done, the honorable has studied the amendments that have member for Ivanhoe must include the been passed must realize that what Premier of Victoria in his condemna­ seemed impossible has been acheived by tion. It has been a practice in our three amendments. One altered the party to appoint committees to consider name of the Tourist Development Ad­ the proposals contained in various Bills. visory Committee to the Tourist Develop­ I wonder whether the Government ment Authority. From the personnel of appointed a committee to consider this the authority two public servants have measure and whether the honorable been taken and they have been replaced member for Ivanhoe is disappointed by two others. The representative of that he was not included on it. the alpine regions has been replaced Education [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] Bill. 3467 by the chairman of the Country Roads .gar.tens" in paragraph (a) of clause Board, or his nominee, hut the Minister 21, and the omission of the words is empowered either of his own volition " State schools and for other " in par­ or on the recommendation of the gra:ph (a) of clause 21, as passed by the authority to appoint committees. Council. The motion was agreed to, and the The fourth amendment made by the Bill was read a third ·time. Council was drawn to my attention during the second-reading debate or in EDUCATION BILL. the Committee stage by the honorable The message from the Council relat­ member for Ripponlea, who pointed out ing to the amendments in this Bill was that the flags saluted by children in taken into consideration. patriotic ceremonies at schools were Mr. BLOOMFIELD (Minister of wrongly described. Apparently the Education).-The first three amend­ draftsman had overlooked the fact that ments relate to the same subject-matter, there is a Commonwealth Act, passed the second and third amendments being in 1953, which defines the Australian consequential on the first. The Bill flag. The honorable member for Rippon­ is an amending and consolidating meas­ lea suggested that the Bill should refer ure. Whilst there was passing reference to the Australian National flag and not in the Education Act 1928 to kinder­ to the Australian Blue Ensign or the gartens in the sense of kindergarten Australian Red Ensign, which are schools, the Act itself did not contem­ mentioned in clause 24. There can be plate the conduct of kindergarten no argument against that .particular schools by the Education Department. amendment, and I trust there will be In so far as the Government is respon­ no dispute concerning the other three sible for the conduct of kindergarten amendments. The Council's amend­ schools, they are almost exclusively ment to omit the words "the Australian carried on through the Department of Blue Ensign or the Australian Red Health. It is desired that the existing Ensign" in sub-clause (2) of clause 24 and to insert " or the Australian situation shall be preserved until Parlia­ 11 mentary authority for a change from National flag seems to me ibeyond that situation is obtained. argument or comment. I move- When some small amendments to the That the amendments be agreed to. original Act were made by this Bill, it Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the was contemplated that at some time the Opposition).-At first glance, I thought administration of kindergartens should there might be some other intention in come under the control of the Education regard to the proposal to omit the words Department. In clause 3, for example, " kindergarten school " in clause 3, 'but the definition of " special school 11 was in view of the fact that this particular wide enough to include kindergarten expression is used in relation to special schools. Similarly, in clause 21 the schools, the Opposition does not object word " kindergartens " was included in to the amendment. I have looked for­ what was substantially a new clause. ward to the day when every school Therefore, it would have .been possible would have a kindergarten section. In ior the Education Department, if it so a Bill introduced in the last sessional desired, to take over the whole period, provision was made for colleges administration of kindergartens with­ for the purpose of training kindergarten out referring the matter to teachers within the Education Depart­ Parliament. Because such a move ment and for continuing the training of represents a substantial change in kindergarten teachers connected with existing arrangements, the Government the free kindergarten union and other considers it should have Parliamentary organizations in Victoria and Tasmania. sanction, and that result will be achieved At that time I considered we were by ·the om1ss10n of the words moving towards the ultimate. When I "kindergarten school " in sub-clause (1) first heard of the proposal to omit the of clause 3, the ·omission of " kinder- words " kindergarten school 11 from the 3468 Education [ASSEMBLY.] Bill. interpretation of "special school" in used but also in the manner in which it clause 3, I thought our desires in that is used. There is great latitude in connexion might have been interfered Australia in the usage of our national with. I should think there is nothing flag or any other flag, such as the union to prevent the Department, even with flag. If I remember correctly, it is these words removed, from operating specifically laid down in the United kindergarten classes in association with States of America-not that I want an existing school. I consider also it slavishly to follow the example of that would be preferable to have kinder­ country-that great respect must be garten classes associated with a school, paid to their flag. The American flag even though not on the same site. For cannot be used as a means of decoration instance, at Sunshine East a new junior and it must be carried in a certain school was established in association position. In this country, the Union with a primary school, although it is flag is used at political meetings by the some 600 or 700 yards removed. I know Liberal party, and water is often spilt it is not the intention of the Education over it. That would be a misdemeanour Department to dispense with the idea of · under American law. training kindergarten teachers, and kin­ The Labour party supports the dergarten classes will be established in amendment. I believe in flying wherever association with other schools. In all possible the Australian flag, of the right probability, an amending Act of Parlia­ kind and the right colour, but we have ment will not be necessary if this course no objection to the Union flag being used is decided upon. When I visited New for school ceremonies or on loyal Zealand I was impressed with the ,pro­ occasions. I think most people would gress made in regard to kindergarten like to see both flags being used training, under the jurisdiction of the together. Dominion's Education Department and Mr. SUTTON (Albert Park).-At not by its Health Department, as first sight, my reaction to the amend­ in Victoria. In New Zealand the State ments made in the other place were bears all the expense involved. Vic­ slightly different from that of the torian kindergartens are supported by Leader of the Opposition. I thought the contributions of public-minded they were irritatingly trifling. But after citizens and municipalities which are hearing the Minister's explanation and supplemented by a Government grant. his short dissertation on the subject, I The Minister of Health may be con­ agree that they are of some importance. cerned that it may cut across his pro­ I hope the time will come when kinder­ vince and take some glorification away gartens will be under the direct and from his Department if kindergarten exclusive control of the Education schools come under the auspices of the Department. That recommendation was Education Department. clearly made and interestingly set forth The Opposition approves of the fourth in a report by the present Director of amendment made by the Council. The Education shortly before he took over reference to the Union flag in sub-clause his present official duties, and just after (2) of clause 24 is not interfered with his return from England. When the in any way. Many schools fly the union Opposition becomes the Government, I flag. Flags of this type are made avail­ hope that it will become a Government able by the Empire Day Society, repre­ with the people's endorsement of his sentatives of which attend schools, and proposal. at a special ceremony make a presen­ Mr. BLOOMFIELD (Minister of tation of this flag. I recall that in a Education) .-Speaking by leave, I Commonweal th Act there was not only merely wish to advise the Leader of the a description of what shall constitute Opposition that these amendments do the Australian national flag, but the not indicate any change of Government shape and design of the flag itself was policy in relation to the administration produced in colour. The Opposition of kindergartens or the attitude of the lauds the idea of inducing people to be Education Department to such schools. consistent not only in the flag that is The motion was agreed to. Mr. Shepherd. Melboorne Cricket Ground [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Trustees) Bill. 3469

MELBOURNE CRICKET GROUND Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-This is (TRUSTEES) BILL. a short Bill, but it contains one or two The Order of the Day for the resump­ interesting features. It involves amend­ tion of the debate (adjourned from ment of sections 5 and 6 of the 1933 November 12) on the motion of Mr. Melbourne Cricket Ground Act. Few K. H. Turnbull (Minister of Lands) for members present to-day were in this the second reading of this Bill was read. House in 1933. I think the only ones are the honorable member for Scoresby, Mr. MOSS (Murray Valley).-On a the Leader of the Country party, and point of order, is it the usual procedure the honorable member for Gippsland for the business of the House to be East. In the 1933 Act, provision was called by the Clerk of the Parliaments made to consolidate the position so far simply standing ~nd saying .for as the trustees of the Melbourne Cricket instance, " Order of the Day Ground were concerned. There was No. 2" on the Notice Paper? During doubt whether they might have my time in this House, members have exceeded their powers in publishing had an opportunity to have some say certain regulations. In consequence, the in relation to matters that are to be Bill of 1933 was passed to make clear debated. If, for the sake of argument, the position of the trustees, and in sub­ the Country party or the Opposition section ( 1) of section 5 it was provided objected to what the Government pro­ that- posed, members were given an oppor­ The land described in the Fifth Schedule tunity of debating a question whether together with all improvements thereon Orders of the Day Nos. 1, 2 and 3 (hereinafter referred to as "the ground") should be postponed until later in the shall be granted to the persons hereinafter referred to upon trust for the public to be day. Is the present .method a change maintained and used as and for a place for in the procedure? Apparently it is a playing at cricket and for conveniences change that has been made during the connected therewith and when not required life of this Parliament. There has for cricket for. such other purposes not inconsistent with the foregoing as the· always been a safeguard for members trustees think fit, and for no other purpose who, I repeat, have had the opportunity whatsoever. of deciding which business shall be given precedence. I should like to be given a The Act also provided that those who reason for the change. were trustees prior to the 1933 Act were· to continue in that position, and that The SPEAKER (the Hon. W. cl. F. the Secretary for Lands should be a McDonald).-Will the honorable mem­ trustee ex officio. The maximum ber for Murray Valley indicate the number of trustees under that Act was. change to which he is referring? Order sixteen, and that position has· remained of the Day No. 1 has been disposed of up till the present time. and Order of the Day No. 2 has been called; it is the next in sequence. The Bill now ibefore the House pro­ I cannot perceive any change in poses to increase the number of trustees procedure. from sixteen to eighteen. It specifies that the presidents of the Victorian Cricket Mr. Moss.-I beg your pardon. Association and the Victorian Football The SPEAKER.-On the general League shall be ex officio trustees. There question, I think I know to what the is also provision that When one of the honorable member is referring, but it present trustees in the person ·Of Mr. E. does not apply in this case. In order L. Moran ceases to be a trustee, his posi­ to abbreviate the forms of the House, it tion will automatically be filled by the has been the practice for the last two president of the Melbourne Cricket Club, months simply to refer to the Order of who shall a~so ibe an ex officio trustee. the Day. If any member desires to take When Mr. Moran ceases to hold office, exception to it, he is at liberty to do so. there will be four ex officio members. It seems unnecessary to go through the Namely, the Secretary for Lands, the whole of the form. I think ample oppor­ president of Victorian Cricket Associa­ tunity is available for any member to tion, the president of the Victorian raise an objection. Football League, and the president of 3470 Melbourne Cricket Ground [ASSEMBLY.] (Trustees) Bill.

the Melbourne Cricket Club. An inter­ That position has obtained over the esting innovation, to which I do not think years. In reply to a question I raised exception can be taken, provides that if recently in th-is House I received any of the ex officio members cannot lbe some very interesting information. present at a meeting of the trustees he Of the present trustees, the following shall be represented by someone else, were trustees in 1933: the Honorable and the proposed amendment is to add Henry Stephen Bailey, the Honorable the following sub-section to section 6 of William Slater, the Honorable Thomas the principal Act- Hayes, Frank Livesey Mauger, the ( 10) Any trustee ex officio may at any Honorable Arthur Augustus Calwell, meeting of the trustees be represented by and Stanley Radcliffe Lewis. The next a deputy appointed by him (whether .gener­ vacancy occurred in 1934, when the Hon­ ally or for a specified :period or occasion) orable Robert Gordon Menzies became a in accordance with regulations made ·by the trustees in that :behalf, and any deputy so trustee. For some time thereafter, ap­ appointed while so representing the trustee parently the trustees enjoyed a period shall have all the 1powers privileges and of good health, because there were no obligations of that trustee. further appointments until October, The Bill is evidence of the change that 1946, when the Honorable Patrick has taken place in this House over the John Kennelly was appointed to the years. . When the 1933 Bill was being board of trustees. discussed, the then Deputy Leader of On 15th October of the following the Opposition, the late John Cain, on the year, the Honorable Leslie William 15th November, 1933, moved as an Galvin became a trustee, and his ap­ amendment that provision should be p:ointment was followed by that of Sir made for representation, as ex officio John Gladstone Black McDonald on 16th members, of the Victorian Football July, 1952. The Honorable Patrick League and the Victorian Cricket Asso­ Leslie Coleman was the next appointee ciation. The late Sir Allbert Dunstan -his appointment dated from 15th De­ who, at that time, was Minister of cember, 1954; and then, like a bolt from Lands, said- the blue, there was a change of Govern­ ! cannot accept .the amendment. The ment, and, on 30th November, 1955, the honorabut .there is no pro­ in office indefinitely. Sub-clause (2) of vision that trustees shall attend any mini­ clause 2 of the Bill states- mum number of meetings. Edwin Leonard Moran, Esquire, a trustee Apparently it is considered that of the said lands appointed by the Governor there may be about nine of the trustees in Council as a new trustee on the eleventh day of June One thousand nine hundred who will be so busy elsewhere, or so and fifty-seven shall 1be deemed to be and pre-occupied with sport, that they may to have been · from his appointment a not be able to attend the meetings of the representative of the Melbourne Cricket trustees. · Club and if the said Edwin Leonard Moran dies 'or goes to reside out of the State of Meetings of the trustees are held as re­ Victoria or desires to be discharged from quired and a sub-committ·ee, comprising six acting or refuses or declines to act or trustees, meets very frequently. becomes incapable of acting as a trustee It or ceases to be a member of the committee would appear that the six trustees of the. Melbourne Cricket Club his office as who meet on the sub-committee really trustee shall be vacated but the Governor do their job. in Council shall not appoint a new trustee 3472 Melbourne Cricket Ground [ASSEMBLY.] (Trustees) Bill. in his plar.e but thereafter the person for that the number of trustees shall be the time being holding the office of Presi­ dent of the Melbourne Cricket Club shall reduced to nine and that each appoint­ be a trustee ex officio of the said lands ment shall be for a period of seven in the same manner in all respects as the years. It has also been suggested that persons referred to in sub-section (1) of should any member of Parliament be this section and the said sub-section (1) shall extend and apply accordingly. appointed a trustee, he should cease to be a trustee immediately upon losing In other words, " Let Mr. Moran con­ his Parliamentary seat. If that is the tinue as a trustee, but when his position mtention of the Government, honorable becomes vacant, the president of the members should be informed accord­ Melbourne Cricket Club shall become an ingly. ex officio trustee." Opposition members Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown).-The agree that most of the present trustees Bill proposes the first major alteration have done good work-certainly the members of the sub-committee have to the Melbourne Cricket Ground taken a very active part in carrying out Act since 1933. I have been wanting to say something about it since that time, their duties. Consequently, we feel that they should not be arbitrarily removed and welcome this opportunity to do so. from office but, as anyone of them dies, I agree with the Government's move to increase the number of trustees to or as a position becomes vacant, it should not be filled until the number of trustees, eighteen by appointing two persons including the four iex officio trustees, who should have held office falls below eight, and thereafter years ago, irrespective of which­ appointments should be made so that ever Government has been in office the number does not exceed nine. The in the meantime. In the mad scramble for appointment to vacancies, those who board of trustees would then comprise should be appointed to such positions are four ex officio members and five mem­ bers appointed by the Governor in usually missed. In an endeavour to rectify the position, however, the Council. Furthermore, the Opposition suggests that new appointments should Government has taken action that will result in the body becoming more un­ be for a period of five years-we are wieldy than it is at present. not adamant on the period of five years but feel that some such period should be One of the great changes which took stipulated-and upon the expiration of place as a result of the 1933 Act, and their period of office, trustees should be which I deplore, was that the name eligible for reappointment. We agree of the ground was changed from the that it is desirable for the presidents of Metropolitan Cricket Ground to the the Victorian Cricket Association, the Melbourne Cricket Ground. I would Victorian Football League and the have preferred it to be known as the Melbourne Cricket Club to be trustees Metropolitan Recreation Ground or, if ex officio, and also for the Secretary for the Country party feels that this area Lands to be similarly appointed. During should belong to Victorians generally, it the Committe stage, I propose to move should be called the Victorian Recreation that the number of trustees be gradu­ Ground, or something similar. The ally reduced to nine and that subs-equent ground belongs to the people of Victoria appointments be made for five-yearly -not to any one club. When cricket was periods. Apart from that alteration, first played in this State, the Melbourne which is not unimportant, Opposition Cricket Club was formed. A grant of members support the principles of the land was made to it by the Government, Bill. and the ground was named the Mel­ bourne Cricket Club Ground. Sir HERBERT HYLAND (Gippsland South).-The honorable member for The persons responsible for the pas­ Melbourne has submitted a case that the sing of an Act dealing with this land in trustees of the Melbourne Cricket 1861 were broad-minded enough to Ground should be reduced to nine. I realize that the ground would not always understand that the Government intends be used for cricket, even though Victoria to move an amendment to the effect was then still in the pioneering stage. Melbourne Cricket Ground [ 4 DECEMBER) 1957.] (Trustees) Bill. 3473

They had enough initiative to Parliament has been in existence for alter the title to the Metro­ more than 100 years, and the Country politan Cricket Ground. After party was not formed until about 50 bearing that name for many years, I years ago, although its members may regret to say that instead of the name have had a good time since. If the trend being changed to the Metropolitan Re­ continues, the political complexion of creation Ground, or a title given to the trustees will be all of the one colour. cover all sports to be played there and Whether the Government considers that the persons using it, it became the Mel­ a good thing or not, I do not know. If bourne Cricket Ground. In the first the same discretion was exercised in the place, there must have been some very appointment of trustees to the Mel­ obscure trustees. All members know bourne Cricket Ground as is applied in the type of person who accepts a posi­ the appointment of trustees for halls in tion as a trustee of an elderly citizens' country towns, men who had given some club, a cemetery, a mechanics' institute, public service would be appointed. and so on. Few people seek jobs of this sort, and when a vacancy occurs I do not blame the present Govern­ nobody wishes to fill it. When a citizen ment for following a past practice. desires to obtain some information re­ When a vacancy occurs through death, garding a particular body, it is necessary if there is not a man " pegged out " for for him in many instances to approach the office, those responsible for the the Lands Department to ascertain the appointments fix it up with almost in­ names of the trustees. decent haste. This Government has recognized that a measure of justice The same position used to apply to the should be accorded to the tenants of the Melbourne Cricket Ground. I have not ground, and it is proposed .that the presi­ been able to find out when the position dents of the Victorian Cricket Associa­ of a trustee of that :ground changed tion and the Victorian Football League from one of obscurity to one of glamour. will become trustees. The persons hold­ I resent the fact that certain trustees ing those offices should have been trus­ of the Melbourne Cricket Ground-as I tees years ago. Previously, there were must reluctantly describe it-are in­ not members of Parliament who would terested not so much in the progress of vote them into office, and there was no the ground or the welfare of those who string-pulling behind the ·scenes, perhaps use it, but in the glamour and social involving a bargain that someone would standing that accompany the position. become a trustee of a racecourse and I do not apply that remark to every someone else a trustee of the Melbourne trustee, nor do I make the statement Cricket Ground. It must be admitted because some trustees are members of that political appointments have invari­ this House. The members of the As­ ably been made. I admit that the sembly and of another place who are Government is trying to correct the trustees have a right to fill those posi­ position slightly, and proposes that the tions. On glancing through a list of the tenants who provide much of the revenue names of the trustees, I consider that, should be represented among the trus­ whether it is a coincidence or otherwise, appointments made ·as a result of the tees. That is a good move. death of trustees have given rise to a Mr. RYLAH.-It is the substance of the particular situation. Of course, no one Bill. ever drops out. Mr. FLOYD.-That is so, but I have Mr. BoLTE.-You are wrong t:here. heard a lot of "tommy-rot" spoken in Mr. FLOYD.-The Premier can make this House on less important subjects his statement later. So far I have not than this. obtained much inf.orma tion from the Mr. RYLAH.-I am sorry that you are Government. When trustees die, or one following the bad example. or two drop out, we find that the politi­ cal rolour of the persons appointed in Mr. FLOYD.-! am praising the their place coincides with that of the Government, but I regret that its pro­ Government in office at the time. This posal will make the trustees more Session 1956.-142 3474 Melbourne Cricket Ground [ASSEMBLY.] (Trustees) Bill.

unwieldy than ever. The Government is have not had a monopoly of looking wise in providing .that the presidents of after the ·interests of the people. I will the Victorian Cricket Association and not fall over backwards to praise the Victorian Football League shall be trustees for doing a job they are members ex officio. Apparently it is supposed to do. realized that the occupants of those Without mentioning personalities, I offices are subject to democratic elec­ consider it is reasonable that when a tion, and if .they fa:il to retain public man loses his interest in an honorary approval they can lose· office. Provision office, as is often the case when a certain is made also that, if an member ex officio age is reached, somebody else should is not available to attend a meeting, he be appointed in his place. What do the may be represented by a person people of Melbourne gain by the appointed by him. appointment of this gentleman, Robert There is a feeling abroad~pos­ Gordon Menzies, as a trustee? He has not sibly it emanates from this side been to a meeting for years because, dur­ of the House- that the trustees ing his infrequent visits to Australia, he of the Melbourne Cricket Ground has so much work to do that this is are the custodians of the people's impossible. Should the work of the rights, and I accept that position. They trustees be held up-I contend that it should be, but they are not the only is-because of persons such as he? If custodians of the people's rights. -Eight Mr. Menzies and any of his colleagues out of ten people are interested in foot­ desire to take advantage of the pri­ ball and ·one out of ten follows the game. vileges of the football or cricket clubs, I The League and the Association are agree that, as public men, they should be powerful organizations, and many per­ entertained and accorded the greatest sons rise from football clubs to high hospitality, but is there any need for positions, even to membership of Parlia­ them to be appointed trustees? The ment~our Leader is an example. It is cigars and the plush would then be open well known that fees charged for admit­ to others. Why should such persons tance to football and cricket matches in occupy a position among the trustees Me}bourne are the cheapest in the world. but never attend a meeting and leave The Premier can support that statement matters to a sub-committee, the mem­ because of experience he has gained over­ bers of which include the Premier, the seas. The trustees of the ground should Honorable William Slater, the Honor­ not set the charges. They should be able Arthur Calwell, the Honorable fixed by the cricket and football P. J. Kennelly, and Mr. Stanley Lewis, clubs. That was the practice before Q.C., who was for 50 years secretary? the ground management association was formed. Mr. RYLAH.-Your party has the numbers in the names you have When football teams representing mentioned. Melbourne and Carlton were to play a match in 1874, at the Melbourne Mr. FLOYD.-That is so. These are Cricket Ground, for the dependants of the people who must do the work. victims of a mining disaster, it was sug­ gested that the charge be ls., but the Mr. BoLTE.-People fall over back­ clubs decided that no charge would be wards in an effort to be appointed made and that a collection would be trustees. taken up on the ground. Contributions Mr. FLOYD.-! agree that the suggested were 6d. and 3d., and Government is to be commended for the sum of £500 was raised. trying to correct the situation to which Thu5 was set the pattern for the I object, and I ask it to do still more. future, and, as a result, football This can be done without loss of face and. cricket have been the democratic or upsetting anybody, simply by pastimes of the masses. The trustees saying-- of the Melbourne Cricket Ground might have tried to prevent democratic bodies Mr. BoLTE.-We have a better scheme from charging too much. The trustees than that. Mr. Floyd. Melbourne Cricket Ground [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Trustees) Bill. 3475

Mr. FLOYD.-! am glad that the Mr. FLOYD.-It is the " little Opposition has made things "tick." brother " of the trustees. After a certain number of years-say, Mr. W1Lcox.-Surely the members are five or seven-if a man had acted com­ entitled to some return for the fees petently and retained the qualifications that they pay? he possessed when appointed, anybody Mr. FLOYD.-They should get what would agree to his reappointment. they deserve. They are members of Nobody is looking for political scalps. a cricket club, so they should attend the Mr. BOLTE.-lt has never worked out district club matches. If a world in that way from your point of view; championship boxing match was held on that has never been done in your life. that ground, what would that have to do Mr. FLOYD.-Do not blame me for with the members of the Melbourne some of the rats who used to be on Cricket Club? The Melbourne Cricket this-the Opposition-side of the Ground trustees pay only £3,000 a year House, and who are not here now. The to the Victorian Football League, yet trustees of the Melbourne Cricket the cluh has the privilege of Ground have not only assumed a reserving 72,000 seats for the final glamorous position, but in my opinion series. That means that a mem­ they have exercised powers they have ber of the club can witness a foot­ not possessed. It has been said that ball match for 4d. However, football the members of the Melbourne Cricket spectators who are not members of the Club have built the ground, but money club hav1~ to pay high prices of admis­ has been raised from companies and sion. Governments for the building of grand­ I think the Government has acted stands. There are 9,000 members and, reasonably in this matter in the past, with ladies' tickets, this means that and apparently it proposes to be more 72,000 seats at the ground are avail­ reasonable in the future. If the trustees to them for a final series of foot­ are really keen on looking after the ball matches. interests of the people, why do they There are 18,000 seats available not pay to the Victorian Football weekly, and that amounts to a total of League the money that is owing to it 72,000 over a series of four games. If as a result of the last final series ? A those seats could be sold at 10s. new agreement is being drawn up, but each, an additional £36,000 would that should not prevent the Trustees be available to the body hiring from paying the money over to the the ground. The present accom­ league. The league has an obligation to modation at the ground was built from make payments to the football clubs money received from the :patronage of who, in turn, have to pay their creditors. the football clubs. However, I do not A total of £97,000 in admission charges object to members of the cricket club was taken during the last final series, using those facilities, but merely point and because the Victorian Football out that they did not build the stands. League will not sign an agreement that Mr. RYLAH.-Who built the new it considers to be unfair, the Melbourne stand? Cricket Ground Trustees will not pay the league the money to which it is Mr. FLOYD.-This Government and entitled. That is completely wrong and the Commonwealth Administration unfair and I should like to know the gave the Melbourne Cricket Club most explanation. In addition to giving the of the money. Only £61,000 was pro­ trustees 12~ or more per cent. of the vided by the members, and £450,000 gate for the use of the ground, the from other sources. Of course, the league has to pay for cleaning the membership of the club had to be ground after the series. In 1956, the increased to raise the £61,000. I repeat sum involved was £1,197. In addition, tha·t the stands have been built by the the Victorian Football League that year tenants and not by the club. had to pay for the staffing of the mem­ Mr. WILCOX.-The Melbourne Cricket bers' reserve. If a private organization Club is the tenant. hires the Melbourne Town Hall, it does 3476 Melbourne Cricket Ground [ASSEMBLY.] (Trustees) Bill. not have to pay a caretaker to sweep up sentation on the trustees. The three next day. The trustees might be outside persons will be representing the actuated by the best intentions, but I Melbourne Cricket Club, the Victorian consider that those who are working Football League and the Victorian Cric­ are over-zealous and that those who are ket Association. I believe the Govern­ not working have outlived their useful­ ment has taken a realistic view in that ness. Perhaps more will lbe achieved regard. Opposition member say that when the two new trustees are they do not want to annihilate any of appointed. If similar action had been the trustees, yet they propose to move taken years ago, the users of the ground an amendment that will have that effect. would have been given more repre­ It is extraordinary that when the Oppo­ sentation on the trust, and if the sition party formed the Government no Government agrees to my proposed steps were taken to achieve this amendment, then when a trustee resigns objective. . or dies the new appointee will not hold Mr. SCHINTLER.-It was not this office for life. If he does not do the Opposition. job, he will be " kicked out ", ·as are members of Parliament if they do not Mr. BOLTE.-It was the same old do their jobs. band. No attempt was made to give the Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). users 'Of the ground representation on -I had no intention of participating in the board of trustees. Opposition mem­ this debate, but because of the comments bers want it both ways; they want to of the honorable member for Williams­ support the Bill and at the same time to reserve the right to criticize the pre­ town, I consider that I must. We have the extraordinary situation of a member sent trustees and the set-up. An exami­ of the Opposition criticizing the present nation of past practices will reveal that trustees of the Melbourne Cricket at every opportunity a Labour Govern­ Ground, the majority of whom are mem­ ment appointed a Labour member of bers of his own party. Parliament as a trustee, yet Opposition members criticize the present trustees. Mr. SCHINTLER.-That makes no difference. Mr. FENNESSY.-Did you not criticize them when you were in Opposition? . Mr. BOLTE.-It is interesting to know the constitution of the sub­ Mr. BOLTE.-! may have, but, now committee, which is Mr. Calwell, Mr.. that I have the opportunity, at least I Slater, Mr. Kennelly, Mr. Long, Mr. am appointing three outside persons. Lewis and myself. If there is any That action is being taken with the question of moneys being withheld from view of keeping politics out of the trus­ the Victorian Football League pending tees of the Melbourne Cricket Ground. the signing of an agreement-- The honorable member for Williamstown stated that no trustee has ever resigned, Mr. FLOYD.-The agreement is for the and I wish to correct him in that regard, future. because Mr. Zwar resigned. Mr. BOLTE.-The honorable mem­ ber for Williamstown quoted from the Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-So did the late Sporting Globe to the effect that pay­ Sir Albert Dunstan. ments have been withheld from the Mr. BOLTE.-That is so. The late clubs. That is true, but I suggest that Sir Albert Dunstan resigned to allow no good purpose will be achieved by the late Mr. Cain to be appointed. If, levelling criticism at all the trustees. in the future, a trustee who is not The honorable member stated also that representing a political party resigns the appointment of trustees had become or dies, the new appointment will be political. It has been ·political for years made from the interests that the former and I have regretted that in the past. trustee represented. Because politics That is one of the reasons why the have been played and are still being Government is now amending the played in this regard, I know of no principal Act in order to give at least reason why, if there is a vacancy in three outside groups of persons repre- the future caused by the resignation Melbourne Cricket Ground [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Trustees) Bill. 3477 or death of a political representative, that he realizes the foreshadowed amend­ this Government should not fill the ment has no political background. It is vacancy from its own party. I make no most desirable that there should be a apology for the f·act that during the full understanding of the ·functions and term of office of the present Government activities ·of trustees of the Me1bourne I was persuaded to become a trustee. Cricket Ground. Apart from final foot­ My colleagues, the Minister of Agricul­ ball matches and interstate and inter­ ture and the Chief Secretary, have been national cricket contests not many of the appointed also, but they are active functions conducted on the Melbourne members of the trustees. Cricket Ground yield a substantial re­ Mr. Tooo.-Who told the trustees to turn. I remember that years ago withhold the money from the Victorian senior football clubs were paid their Football League? share of the proceeds by cheques Mr. BOLTE.-! do not intend to say signed by the trustees of what was then what happened at a meeting of the known as the Melbourne Cricket Ground trustees because that would be im­ Recreation Reserve Committee. I do not proper. I inform the Opposition that know what the present-day procedure the foreshadowed amendment will not 'is. The Opposition's foreshadowed be accepted. I admit, however, that all amendment has been prepared in good the arguments advanced by Opposition faith. We think it will penalize no one. members are not fallacious or weak and It seems that a period of about 75 years that there is a good deal of merit in would be required to bring it into -full them. I think the trustees should be operation, because the Premier is talking active and that a trust of eighteen is a about the appointment of moderately bit unwieldy. young men to fill vacancies that may occur on the board of trustees. It seems Mr. FENNESSY.-Do you think the that the Chief Secretary would not be trustees should be appointed for life? affected by this legislation until he was Mr. BOLTE.-! do. In order to effec­ in his 80's, always assuming that he lives tively carry out his duties, a trustee a long and honourable life as did his must have continuity of office. A person father. There is nothing radicai or per­ who accepts such an appointment should sonal about the foreshadowed amend­ also be prepared to shoulder the respon­ ment. sibilities that go with it. If a person It is tragic, and a travesty of business is appointed for only a short period of relationships, that the proceeds from the time, he cannot be a true trustee. When final football matches of last year have a trustee is appointed under a will to not been distributed because of a dis­ administer an estate, he is appointed agreement between the Victorian Foot­ for life and not for a certain number ball League and trustees of the Mel­ of years. bourne Cricket Ground as to the period There must be continuity. I am in of the agreement. There seems to be agreement with the principle of appoint­ some argument whether the period sha11 ing trustees for life. It was stated, quite be five years, ten years or fifteen years. properly, by the Opposition that in the To me that is an important matter past every trustee has been appointed because over the years I have taken a on those terms and conditions. How­ keen interest in league f oot:ball. The ever, I give an assurance that the func­ money awaiting distribution does not tions of the trustees wil'l be reviewed, belong to the Victorian Football League; and possibly some of the Opposition's it is the property of the twelve com­ suggestions will be emibodi-ed in a ponent clubs, and it will be shared on a measure to be brought forward at a certain basis. Apart from the four clubs later date. I think the Government that participated in the final series of would be very foolish to accept the fore­ games, it may well be that the club with shadowed amendment at this stage. the smallest membership will receive the Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the largest share of the amount to be dis­ Opposition).-After having listened to tributed. Are those to blame for the the Premier's remarks I am convinced delay the members of the Melbourne 3478 Melbourne Cricket Ground [ASSEMBLY.] (Trustees) Bill.

Cricket Club's standing committee, or -visited this State. That spectacle will the Victorian Football League repre­ long remain in my memory. I recall sentatives, who are conducting the that at that time the Honorable William negotiations? It must be remembered, Slater, M.L.C., who is a trustee of the however, that the Premier said in­ Melbourne Cricket Ground, experienced directly that irrespective of what action extreme difficulty in having two is taken by the standing committee that American visitors admitted. It was action must be condoned by the trustees only because the honorable member for as a whole. Accordingly, any decision Reservoir, Major Ruthven, V.C., and his made by this Parliament to-day could wife were unable to attend that the not upset the negotiations, although it American visitors were enabled to be could ultimately affect the personnel of admitted in their stead. I recall that the board of trustees. when Her Majesty the Queen and the The honorable member for Williams­ Duke of Edinburgh drove on to the town has conducted an historical survey ground on which 18,000 children were in respect of the administration of the assembled before an audience of 80,000 Melbourne .Cricket Ground over the there was no bodyguard nor were any years. Indeed, that member has a great security measures taken to guard flair for matters of that kind. He can the Sovereign. However, despite the produce statistics in relation to any fact that at one time the vehicle in senior football match played as far back which she was travelling became lost in as 1872. Research into such matters is the crowd, no panic developed as a result one of his hobbies, and his work could of this minor mishap. be of considerable value to this Parlia­ If better management of the Mel­ ment. I consider that the publicity bourne Cricket Ground can be attained being given to the trustees of the by a more compact organization, with­ Melbourne Cricket Ground by the dis-· out " cutting off the head " of any cussion of this measure can do no harm. person who may have been politically If any trustees are not discharg­ appointed, that objective should be ing their duties effectively-perhaps, aimed at. The foreshadowed amend­ because of advancing years, they lack ment is not party political in character. interest-the deficiency should be We believe it represents a step in the remedied. I do not think trustees right direction. The Melbourne Cricket derive any material benefit from their Ground is extremely important to the activities, despite what some people citizens of this State, and its trustees might say to the contrary. There are must shoulder their responsibilities. some persons in the community-I am Incidentally, apparently no one has not referring to Parliamentarians-who thought of the possibility of a woman enjoy as many ·privileges as do the appointee, but there is no provision to trustees themselves. Although the exclude such an appointment. I have facilities of the ground are not available no doubt, however, that if a woman to everyone, there are many favoured trustee were appointed there would be folk who share them. a sharp reaction in certain quarters. When a person holds any position of The Opposition aims at the reformation trust, he must be prepared to withstand of what is considered to be too large an constructive, but not · destructive, organization to carry out effectively the criticism. The trustees of the Mel­ work entrusted to it in the best interests bourne Cricket Ground control property of the community. that is worth hundreds of thousands of Mr. WILCOX (Camberwell).-I was pounds and on that famous enclosure interested in the remarks of the Leader many outstanding events, including the of the Opposition and the honorable Olympic Games, have been staged. member for Williamstown. It is not Religious gatherings and festivals have surprising that a Bill which refers to been held there. One .of the greatest this famous and historic ground should events was the school children's display provoke discussion. I am not well ·at the time when Her Majesty the informed concerning the trustees, but it Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh is not a bad idea to bring to light in this Mr. Shepherd. Melbourne Cricket Ground [ 4 DECEMBER) 1957.] (Trustees) Bill. 3479

House who and what they are and their membership is: Labour party, 4; Demo­ functions. I have been attending the cratic Labour party, 2; and others, 10. Melbourne Cricket Ground on both sides Therefore, it would appear that the of the fence for many years. Having Premier is misinformed on the subject. been fortunate enough at about the time I suggest seriously that the main I left school to become a junior member revenues derived by the trustees of the of the Melbourne Cricket Club in an Melbourne Cricket Ground and cricket honorary capacity, I ultimately lost that clubs throughout the metropolitan area membership and had to wait eighteen come from the football game, which years before being admitted to member­ represents the greatest expression of the ship about three months before I was sporting instincts of the Australian pub­ elected to this House. I paid an entrance lic and mobilizes the greatest number of fee of £10 10s. plus an annual subscrip­ Australian youths into sport. I include tion. in that· statement all the football codes played in this country. The reasons for The honorable member for Williams­ that are inherent in the two sports and town implied that members of the Mel­ need not be debated here. The twelve bourne Cricket Club receive more than clubs comprising the Victorian Football they deserve. I wish to make it dear League have an average of about 100 that over the years the members have footballers each, who are engaged in made substantial contributions to the active competition during the season development and improvement of the and who practise out of season. That is ground. There is no need for anyone a total of about 1,200 lads and young to "point the bone" at members and men. suggest they receive more than they The trustees of the Melbourne Cricket deserve. In the members' reserve I now Ground do not appreciate the contribu­ find myself shoulder to shoulder with tion made by football to the running many onlookers with whom I was in a of the ground. The most serious similar position in the "outer." What­ charge ~gain.st them-it constitutes ever might be said about the club, I discreditable behaviour on their part­ believe its waiting list is conducted with is that to which oblique reference was the greatest propriety. I know of a man made by the honorable member for who thought he was a " big shot " and Williamstown. It is alleged that the who on coming to the city stated that he secretary of the trustees of the Mel­ ·would become a member of the club bourne Cricket Ground has informed within six months. So far as I know he the Victorian Football League bluntly has still not achieved membership. that the trustees are not prepared to Members are elected from the waiting meet officers of the league until the list in their turn. The idea that men league signifies its willingness to sign a can obtain membership if they possess new agreement that is acceptable to the a "pull" is nonsense. Any citizen of trustees. The second point is that Victoria can become a member in due moneys owing to the Victorian Football course if he has his name placed on the League have been deliberately withheld waiting list. When he is admitted a·fter by the trustees as a disgraceful instru­ paying his entrance fee and subscrip­ ment of coercion completely inimical tions he is entitled to whatever benefits to the traditions and spirit of sport. membership confers on him. The Government has had much to say Mr. LOVEGROVE (Carlton).-This about the development of sporting is not a political question, although the instincts in youth, the establishment of Premier claimed that included in the youth organizations and the methods of trustees of the Melbourne Cricket dealing with juvenile delinquency. In Ground was a preponderance of persons my opinion, the Government should of the political complexion of the inform the trustees of the Melbourne Opposition. According to an answer Cricket Ground, irrespective of their given by the Minister of Lands to a political complexion, that their actions f!Uestion asked by the honorable mem­ are being condemned throughout ber for Melbourne a few weeks ago, the Victori1a, and refleot discredit on the 3480 Melbourne Cricket Ground LASSEMBLY. J (Trustees) Bill. trustees themselves and on the admini­ tha_n a trustee ex officio dies or goes to stration of the ground. I do not suggest reside out of the State of Victoria or that the Government, or the Ministers desires to be discharged from acting or refuses or declines to act or becomes who have spoken, have upheld the incapable of acting as a trustee his actions of the trustees, but the Govern­ office as trustee shall be vacated and ment should consider the charges made the Governor in Council may appoint both outside and inside this Chamber a new trustee in his place but the num­ and also the respective ages of the ber of trustees (including the trustees trustees and their capacities to carry ex officio shall at no time exceed eigh­ on the job in the best interests of sport. teen." 1:he motion was a.greed to. Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne). - I The Bill was read a second time, and move- committed. That in proposed new sub-section (1) of ·clause 1 (Short title, construction section 6 of the principal Act the words and citation). " shall at no time exceed eighteen " be Mr. CLAREY (Melbourne).-Sub­ omitted with the view of inserting the fol­ lowing:- clause (2) of clause 1 provides- This Act shall come into operation on a " shall not immediately after the day to be fixed by proclamation of the commencement of :this Act exceed Governor in Council published in the eighteen, and after the said commence­ Government Gazette. ment no appointment of any new trustee shall be made until the number In his second-reading speech, the of trustees (including the trustees ex Minister of Lands stated- officio) has fallen below nine, and The Bill is expressed to come into thereafter the number of trustees shall operation on a proclaimed day. The not at any time exceed nine and every Government will not make the neces­ trustee appointed shall be appointed sary proclamation unless it is assured for such period not exceeding five that suitable agreements have been made years as the Governor in Council de­ and are in force for the playing of the termines, but upon the expiration of principal matches to which I have referred any such term shall be eligible for re­ at the Melbourne Cricket Ground. If at appointment." any future time these matches should cease to be played at the ground, it will I do not intend to traverse the ground be for the Government of thait day to already covered; in our second-reading determine whether the Act should be speeches, we, the members of the Oppo:­ amended to alter the trusteeship. sition, set forth what we considered to I understood from those remarks that be a reasonable case for the amendment. · the proclamation of the Bill would be However, I should like to say that the delayed pending agreements being Premier, in his speech, defended the entered into between the Victorian Ufe appointment of trustees. The at­ Football League, the Victorian Cricket Association, the Melbourne Cricket Club titude of the Government is completely and the trustees of the Melbourne inconsistent because when, a few weeks <;ricket Ground. I am wondering ago, it brought forward a Bill relating whether the Minister could indicate to trustees of the Exhibition. Building, what stage the negotiations have it specifically removed from the old Act reached. the provision for life appointments and Mr. K. H. TURNBULL (Minister of made the trustees of that building ap­ Lands).-The negotiations have not pointees for a period of five· years, sub­ been concluded. The Bill will not be ject to the right of reappointment. The proclaimed until the agreement has been Leader of the Country party, speaking signed. to that measure, stated that he con­ The clause was agreed to, as was sidered it a good idea for the provision clause 2. relating to life appointments to be re­ Clause 3, providing, inter alia~ moved. It has been indicated that the (1) For sub-section (1) of section 6 of Government does not propose to ac­ the principal Act there shall be substituted cept the amendment, and I am sure that the following sub-section:- any further eloquence on my part would " (1) Except as is otherwise ex­ pressly provided, if a trustee (other be fruitless. Melbourne Cricket Ground [4 DECEMBER) 1957.] (Trustees) Bill. 3481

The Committee divided on the ques­ MARRIAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL. tion that the words proposed by Mr. Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer} Clarey to be omitted stand part of the presented a message from the Governor,. clause (Mr. Gainey in the chair)- intimating that, at the Government Ayes 37 Offices, on December 3, His Excellency Noes 18 had reserved the Marriage (Amend­ ment) Bill for the signification of Her Majority against the Majesty's pleasure thereon. amendment 19 WATER (AMENDMENT) BILL. AYES. Mr. Balfour Mr. Mitchell This Bi'll was returned from the Coun­ Mr. Barclay Mr. Moss cil with a message relating to an Mr. Bloomfield Mr. Petty · amendment. Mr. Bolte Mr. Porter Mr. Brose Mr. Rafferty Mr. MIBUS (Minister cf Water Mr. Cochrane Mr. Reid Supply).-The Council amended the Bill Mr. Cook Mr. Rylah by adding the following sub-clause, to Mr. Dunstan Mr. Scott Mr. Fraser Mr. Stanistreet follow sub-clause (2) of clause 10:- Mr. Gibbs Mr. Stirling < ) The provisions of section 256 of the Mr. Holden Mr. Suggett principal Act as amended by sub-section (1) Sir Herbert Hyland Mr. Taylor of this section shall apply to the assessment Mr. Kane Mr. Turnbull of compensation for land acquired as a site Sir Albert Lind (Kara Kara> for channels f.or the conveyance and distri­ Mr. MacDonald Mr. White bution o-f water in all cases where the notice

year, the first item of Division 1 was ceive an explanation why the agreed to. At that stage, a general Government has abandoned its intention debate on the Budget was permitted in to transfer printing operations to accordance with custom. I remind hon­ Dawson-street, Brunswick. orable members, however, that the debate must now be confined to matters Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). -In answering the honorable member relevant to items contained in the parti­ for Midlands, I did so not anticipating a cular division under consideration, and to matters involving the administrative further query from the Opposition. If responsibilities of Government. Ques­ the honorable member for Brunswick tions requiring legislation cannot be dis­ West would like to know the full details, I shall be glad to furnish them. As cussed in Committee of Supply. I remember the position, briefly it PREMIER'S DEPARTMENT. is that the Government did purchase a building in Brunswick for a certain sum. The Premier-Balance, £399,430. Later, it was found possible to purchase Mr. STONEIIAM (Midlands).-The another building with 25 per cent. more vote for Parliamentary printing brings floor space than the first one, for less to the notice of members a very impor­ money and in a more centrally situated tant matter. Some months ago, there area .. Acting on the recommendation of was a discussion regarding the future its advisers, and bearing in mind the location of the Government Printing views of employees in the Government Office, as it was considered that its Printing Office who felt they would be present accommodation was very under some disability in travelling to strained. I do not know whether the Brunswick, the Government considered Premier is in a position to indicate at it prudent to discard the first project in this stage just what the Government favour of the second. policy is, and what progress has been made in connexion with a transfer of Mr. CAMPBELL TURNBULL.-Does the the office to another site. Government actually own the Brunswick building? lMr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). -Very briefly, I can assure the honor­ Mr. BOLTE.-Yes. It was purchased able member for Midlands, that a build­ on an occupied basis, but vacant posses­ ing was purchased for use by the sion was promised at a specified date. Government Printing Office, .but it did The terms were a certain deposit and not prove entirely satisfactory. Conse­ three instalments. The total purchase quently, other premises were purchased price was £290,000, and it is believed and it is anticipated that the first that the Government will be able to dis­ property bought will be sold. pose of the property for £350,000. Mr. CAMPBELL TURNBULL (Bruns­ Therefore, the transactions will be in wiick West).-I understand that the the Government's favour. The total cost Government did set up a new Govern­ of the second building is slightly lower, ment Printing Office at Dawson-street, and it is more convenient from many Brunswick, but for some mysterious points of view. reason the premises have now been Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown).-! con­ vacated. sider the Premier's explanation to ibe a Mr. BOLTE.-They were never occu­ good one, but I am sorry that honorable pied. members were not better informed about Mr. CAMPBELL TURNBULL.-Hav­ the initial transaction. In my opinion, ing obtained suitable premises in a most the whole matter should have been de­ desirable .suburb, apparently the Govern­ bated in this Chamber, but I presume ment has now abandoned the project that that was not possible. It should and intends transferring the Govern­ be apparent to the Government that the ment Printing Office to another site in most desirable location for the Govern­ the city area. I understand there is a ment Printing Office is in dose proximity certain amount of material in the Bruns­ to Parliament House. If it were intended wick property, and I would like to re- to retain the present facilities, I would Estimates. [ 4 DECEMBER) 1957.J Estimates. 3483 urge the Government to install a pneu­ Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-! should matic tube in order that papers may be like to ask the Premier whether the sent to and fro. Government will agree to restoring the Mr. BOLTE.-All ParliamentaTy print­ stamp allowance to members. ing wiil still be undertaken at the present The ACTING QHAIRl\IAN (Mr. location. nafferty) .-Order! The matter raised Mr. FLOYD.-In regard to printing, by the honorable member for Coburg the Government has to compete with has no relevance to the division being private enterprise for staff and is not discussed. able to pay the above-award wages that Mr. MUTTON.~n what division are paid by private establishments. I may I raise it? was not in favour of the proposal to The ACTING CHAIRMAN.- The transfer the Government Printing Office honorable member will have ,the oppor­ to Brunswick, and many of the em­ tunity to deal w.ith that matter when ployees would have appreciated the the Estimates for the Treasury are opportunity to put their views in that being considered. regard. I think the Government .is Mr. LOVEGROVE (Carlton).-! ask humane enough to realize that the the Premier whether he is aware of the attitude of the worker should be con­ progress made by the Liibrary Committee sidered. with regard to the expansion of the staff Mr. BOLTE.~One of the major aspects of the Parliamentary Library to enable is that, if a clean break is to be made, research and fact-finding facilities to it is best to buy new machinery. be provided for members. I am not in Mr. FLOYD.-! agree. The tendency any way criticizing the effective and to-day with printing establishments .fs courteous service afforded to members to have all the machinery on the one by the staff of the Library. I believe floor. I know that is not possible in that that staff has already ,given the city, but I believe there is room for this matter some consideration and the expansion at the present location. I Library Committee has examined the know that the Government was paying proposal. I should like to know what high rental for paper storage space and progress has been made. was anxious to obtain the .building at 'Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). Brunswick for that purpose. However, -I know nothing of the proposal men­ I believe the decision not to transfer the tioned by the honorable member. How­ office to Brunswick is sound. Brunswick ever, I shall have the matter inves­ is a good suburb and is well represented tigated. in this Chamber, but I think other industries could lbe encouraged to develop Sir HERBERT HYLAND ( Gippsland there instead of transferring the Govern­ South).-! have in my possession several ment Printing Office to that location. letters signed by the secretary of the As I said before. qualified printing Premier's Department, so I presume that tradesmen are ha•rd to obtain and many I can raise the matters referred to in that men leave that establishment for other correspondence at this stage. Country avenues of employment after they have party members have had several deputa­ completed their apprenticeships. I tions to the Premier, one of which dealt regret that the procedure of the House with water rates imposed by country debarred a full-scale debate on the waterworks trusts. The Premier agreed matter. to our proposal and indicated that he would give his approval to our sugges­ Mr. BOLTE.-It could have been raised tion in writing. I have not yet received when Supply was being considered. such a letter, but I trust the Premier Mr. FLOYD.-! would have liked to will take action in the near future. offer some advice in regard to the trans­ fer. !However, I think the employees Mr. BOLTE.-! will do that. will be happier at North Melbourne Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-Another than they would have been at Brunswick, deputation to the Premier was in con­ and printing costs will be reduced. nexion with the " tagging " of grants .3484 Estimates . [ASSEMBLY.] Estimates.

of the Country Roads Board. Country Supply Commission, and I fail to see municipalities are in dire financial straits any connexion between that Hem owing to the " tagging " of grants. A and the Premier's Department. The statement appeared in the press to the principle of the whole thing is effect that the .. Alberton shire council, wrong. I have been requested to raise in Gipps[and, was forced to allocate this matter in Parliament, and I contend ls. 3d. in the £1 of its rates in order to that I should be permitted to do so at make its cqntribution to the Country this stage. Roads Board for expenditure on roads. The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-My rul­ This year the additional contribution will be £5,500. The general rate charged by ing was to the effect that the matter being discussed by the honorable mem­ that shire is 4s. in the £1, and it has had to levy a special rate of 6d in ber for Gippsland South did not relate the £1 for Country Roads Board work. to the subject before the Committee. I Another shire in the area has imposed suggest that the honorable member a rate of· 3d. in. the £1., in addition to relate his remarks to Division 9- its 4s. general rate. Premier's Office. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-This letter Ra:ff.erty) .-Order! I should . like the was written by the secretary of the the honorable . member for Gippsland Premier's Department, Sir John Jung­ South to indicate which item under wirth, and provision is made 1in the Division 9 he is referring to. Es ti mates for the ipayment of a salary Sir . HERBERT HYLAND.-The cor­ of £4,300 a year to him. I can­ respondence I· have on this matter not understand why I should not be emanated·· from the Premier's Depart­ ·permitted to discuss the letter at this ment, so I· take it that I am at liberty stage. to discuss this· matter under the The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-It is a Estimates· for that Department. question of the subject-matter of the The ACTING. CHAIRMAN.-The re­ letter. levance ·will depend on the subject Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-May I matter of· the correspondence, which I speak on the subject-matter of the understand relates to the Country Roads letter? It appears that when honorable Board. members wish to bring up some matter Sir" HERBERT HYLAND.-! am in this Chamber there is always some­ referring to' Government policy. one who is willing to whisper in the The ACTIN(:;-· CHAIRMAN. - The ear of the presiding officer who then Committee is considering Division 9, "blocks" us from raising the matter in Premier's Office, and in my·opinion the question. honorable member has not related his The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-Order! remarks to· the items covered by that Is the honorable member for Gippsland division. South disagreeing with the ruling of the Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-The letter Chair? in question was written from the Pre­ Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-No, but mier's Office by· the secretary of the I should like to know what honorable Premier's Department and it was signed members are entitled to discuss during by the Premier himself. Consequently, the debate on the Estimates. If it is I contend· that I should be permitted intended that members shall be restric­ to speak on . this question during the ted in the matters they may raise during debate on the Estimates. this debate, other opportunities such as The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-! suggest motions for the adjournment of the that the honorable member reserve his House will have to be resorted to. It comment's until Division 76 is being should be appreciated that the Country dealt with. party has supported this Government Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-Division since it assumed office-we could well 76 relates · to salaries payable to the have defeated the Government to-day by staff of the State Rivers and Water voting with the Opposition on a certain Estimates. [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Estimates. 3485 measure-and we do not like being matter before this House. The letter frustrated. Along with Opposition ref.erred to the leasing of some part of members, we are entitled to a reply to the railway yards for .building purposes deputations and to correspondence, and or for the erection of any structure that when we do not receive such replies, might be of benefit to the Government. we should be able to bring up the matter Within 24 hours of bringing the matter on the floor of the House. However, to the notice of the Premier, he supplied I shall defer my remarks on this the information I sought. Probably, the aspect until the appropriate division is Premier had not previously been told of being dealt with. the correspondence. However, in view of its urgency, I had delivered it person­ I propose now to refer to a letter signed by the Premier in connexion with ally and it is somewhat amazing .that an otherwise efficient office had "fallen mortgages on country halls. The letter down on the job." is in the following terms:- . With reference to your letter of the 21st I should like to refer to three items instant regarding the question of subsidies relating to the Premier's office, the for .public halls which are subject to mortgage, I wish to say that in accordance first being a contribution of £7,500 to with your earlier suggestion I referred the the committee of management of the matter to the Crown Solicitor for his .com­ Sir Colin Mackenzie Sanctuary. This is ments. I shall write again to you on the a well-balanced committee and its mem­ matter as soon as the Crown Solicitor's comments come to hand. bers are doing excellent work. How­ Yours sincerely, ever, in v.iew of the fact that financial HENRY E. BOLTE, assistance is being given to the sanctu­ Premier. ary, I contend that some effort should We know that money must be found be made to publicize it. Certainly, a for halls in country districts, but time limited amount of publicity is given, but is drifting on and I should like to know many thousands of people know nothing what is the position. In connexion with at all about it. Possibly, the new country halls on privately-owned land, tourist authority could undertake this before subsidies may be granted, a deed work. of trust to the effect that the building Provision is made for an estimated will be used for all time as a public expenditure of £30,000 for the Victorian hall must be furnished. It is pre­ Documentary Film Council for the pur­ scribed also that if there is a mortgage chase, distribution and sale of films and on a hall, even if it is only for an so on. Gradually, the amount being pro­ amount ·of £200, a subsidy cannot be vided under this subdivision is being made available. I should like the increased. I have always. considered · Premier to indicate what is the position that the State film centre should be in that regard. attached to the 1Education Department, Mr. BOLTE.-There is a possibility of which could deal with it not only for that difficulty being overcome. adult education, hut also to 'further the interests of general education through­ Sir HERBERT HY.LAND.-Various out our ·schools and elsewhere in the people are pressing us all the time and State. However, this is jealously as this matter dates !back a couple of guarded by the Premier's Department. months, I should be grateful if it could For many years requests have been be finalized without delay. lodged with the Premier's Department Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the that a certain film should be released, Opposition) .-I can understand the feel­ but many people have the impression ing of frustration complained of !by the that it is a propaganda film that might Leader of the Country party. Only last he associated with Communism. Actu­ week, I mentioned in this House that ·I ally, the film is a documentary prepared had written a letter and delivered it by by the publishers of Encyclopredia hand to an officer of the Premier's Britannica, and it is purely graphical. Department in February, 1956, and I had It was produced .in 1946, after the first not received a reply until I raised the atomic bomb had been used against 3486 Estimates. [ASSEMBLY.] Estimates.

Japan. Many people think that it is a Mr. J. D. MACDONALD.-That would film of atrocities and therefore it would help the tourist industry, too. have some detrimental effect on the Mr. SHEPHERD.-That is so. The people and that capital would be made sum of £4,650 is to be allocated to the out of it by the Communist party. I National Parks Fund, and I have no have seen the film and I am sure that, objection. This year the sum of £50,000 if it were shown publicly, many people of loan money set aside for national would be very disappointed, because parks purposes has been depleted by Government Departments to-day are the payment of £25,000 to the State producing more gra:phic material. I Rivers and Water Supply Commission suggest that someone in authority for compensation in connexion with should view the film, which is out of the new national park to be created at date. The State Film Council Eildon. Unless the Government is able could become very important with to obtain more loan money, it may be the development of the tourist in­ called upon to increase this amount dustry, and I hope that some action under the Supplementary Estimates. w.ill be taken in the near future to encourage it to enter more into the Mr. BoLTE.-The payment is for productive side of films. An excellent salaries. film on the Olympic Games was produced Mr. SHEPHERD.-! realize that, but by this Department, in association with I consider that funds other than loan others. If more films could be produced, moneys will be needed. I trust that it would help to publicize Australia. the work in this sphere will not be restricted. I have no objection to the Mr. BOLTE.-The cost has increased amounts sought being allocated to the because of television. Premier's office. Mr. SHEPHERD.-That is under­ Mr. STONEHAM (Midlands).-The standable. In my view, there is a great sum of £16,050 is provided for the pur­ opportunity for expansion in this direc­ chase and maintenance of, and repairs tion. In the expenditure of money to to, motor cars, and so on. I wish to re­ publicize the State, it would be desir­ fer to the subject of co-orrlinating the able to use the services of officers of all requirements of all Departments with Departments, and their facilities. Pro­ respect to motor vehicles and mechanical bably, thousands of pounds are being equipment, with the object of the utmost used for the same purpose, and if all economies being effected. I do not wish the activities were co-ordinated, although to criticize the Premier specifically. individual Departments and instrumen­ Human nature being as it is, irrespective talities might lose their air of indepen­ of the Government in office, there is a dence, there would be a publicity unit natural tendency in Departments, ·as in invaluable to the State. Last year, in private industry and elsewhere, for Sydney, I saw in a newsreel theatre one people in comfortable positions to try of the best documentaries produced in to make themselves even more comfort­ Victoria. It was a film taken in and able. Consideration of the Estimates around the Snob's creek fish hatchery, provides an opportunity for attention to and it had a ·great impact on the be focused on the constant need for audience. The size of the stock fish economies, and this is one such item. amazed the viewers, who live in a city Previously I have referred to the where there· are a number of big-game splendid workshop at Golden Square, in fishermen, including Bob Dyer. The my electorate. methods of production and distribution of the fish caused intense interest. This Mr. BOLTE.-This item refers to was excellent publicity, and I was proud Ministerial cars. of it. The film may have been prepared Mr. STONEHAM.-That is so. Pos· either commercially or by the photogra­ sibly, some repairs are carried out phic division of a State Department. by private firms. I have not actual Great possibilities exist for the use of facts to show that it would be more the State's film servkes and ancillary economical for cars to be sent to the sections. workshops at Bendigo, but I ask the Estimates. [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Estimat,es. 3487

Premier-and I want this on record­ for your guidance, Sir, seeing that he to note my assertion that there is a has deliberately left the Chamber to need to effect economies here. While the avoid-- subject of motor cars is under discus­ Mr. RYLAH.-I did not leave the sion, I should like to refer briefly to the Chamber. question of accommodation at Par­ liament House for the drivers of Honorable members interjecting. Ministerial cars. The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-Order! Mr. BoLTE.-What has that to do with I call on the honorable member for this item? You ought to approach the Midlands. House Committee. Mr. STONEHAM.-The Chief Sec­ Mr. STONEHAM.-When the Esti­ retary stated that I was a complete mates are considered, members should hypocrite, and I ask for a withdrawal have a little latitude to enable them to of that expression. discuss matters foremost in their minds. Mr. RYLAH.-I withdraw. I am not being political in submitting Mr. STONEHAM.-! am completely this question. I realize that over a long at a loss to understand why members period of years successive Governments of the Government should be so touchy. have failed to .provide proper accom­ I admitted that the conditions to which modation for drivers of the vehicles I refer had existed for a long period and whilst they are waiting about during during the term of office of successive sittings of Parliament. Governments, including those to which Mr. RYLAH.-Many applications were I have belonged. made to you, and you did nothing. Mr. RYLAH.-Then why criticize this Mr. STONEHAM.-They were not Government? made to me, personally. Mr. STONEHAM.-!· deliberately did Mr. RYLAH.-They were. not criticize the Government. I pre­ faced my remarks by saying that I was Mr. STONEHAM.-If that was so, not criticizing it. If the· Chief Secretary and members of my party sinned in that will only get in to the right frame of regard, is that any reason why the mind, perhaps he will be receptive to my Government should go on sinning? suggestion. At last, this Government Mr. RYLAH.-We have improved the will have an opportunity to do some­ conditions for drivers, and you are try­ thing. ing to make political capital out of it. Mr. RYLAH.-It has ·already done Mr. STONEHAM.-! am not. something. Mr. STONEHAM.-Matters have come Mr. RYLAH.-You are a complete to a head. Conditions are different hypocrite. ·from those that existed in 1952. Action Mr. STONEHAM.-Mr. Acting Chair­ should be taken ·to improve the con­ man, I ask for a withdrawal. ditions pertaining to the operations of Ministerial cars, as recommended in a The ACTING OHAffiMAN (Mr. report which the Government obtained Rafferty) .-Order! There are too many private conversations in the Committee. about two years ago as a result of action initiated by the preceding Government. Mr. FLOYD.-And too many inter­ A study group was set up under the jections. Transport Regulation Board to formu­ The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-Order! late recommendations as to the 1best I am having difficulty in hearing the means of co-ordinating and satisfying honorable member for Midlands. inter-departmental requirements regard­ ing motor vehicles, plant and equipment. Mr. STONEHAM.-The Chief Sec­ Reference was made in the report to the retary knew that I wished to demand a operation of the fleet of Ministerial cars. withdrawal of the statement he made, The press likes very much to voice that I was a complete hypocrite. I ask criticism about. this subject. 3488 Estimates. [ASSEMBLY.] Estimates.

Mr. BOLTE.-There has been less Mr. BOLTE.-! should like to explain criticism on that score this year than that we have been very worried about ever before. the approach of the President to the Mr. STONEHAM.-Members have a drivers and accommodaHon in this perfect right to discuss this matter place; so much so that the Cabinet under the item of the Estimates now appointed its secretary, the Hon. L. H. being considered, and I cannot under­ S. Thompson, M.L.C., to make a full stand why the Premier and the Chief in~pectio.n of the Parliamentary building Secretary should want to rush the with a view to finding accommodation­ Estimates through the House without and we believe we have found it. On '1iscussion. three occasions, we have submitted a request to the President that one Mr. RYLAH.-The Government has no particular room, or another room ~ intention of rushing them through. cleared of obsolete furniture and made That was your technique. Two days ~vailable to the drivers, and each time have been allotted for a consideration of it has been refused. the Estimates. Mr. STONEHAM.-Then why is the Mr. CAMPBELL TuRNBULL.-On what Chief Secretary becoming excited? grounds? Because I spend five minutes discussing Mr. BOLTE.-On the grounds of an important item, he immediately flies being all powerful in this place. I take into a rage. exception to the honorable member for Mr. RYLAH.-I do not. Midlands endeavouring to accuse the Government of not providing accom­ Mr. STONEHAM. - If the Chief modation at Parliament House for Secretary will promise me to remain drivers of Ministerial cars when the calm during the remainder of the debate, Government has done all in its power to it will be much better for his health do so. The effort of the honorable and will be to the advantage of all other member to refer, on the particular members. I have noticed that the hon­ matter immediately before the Chair, orable gentleman has been overworked; to the whole of the repairs and main­ possibly, he has been carrying more tenance of vehicles of all Government than his share of responsibility in the Departments, is just aibsurd. The item administration of the Government. before the Committee applies solely to Therefore, perhaps it is to be under­ Ministerial cars and those used by stood. Maybe that accounts for the leaders of other parties, as well as fact that he is a little touchy. I ask the vehicles employed for the service and Chief Secretary to remain calm and convenience of visiting personalities. collected when I discuss other items. I should not forget to mention also Mr. BOLTE (Premier and Treasurer). those oars that are made available to -The honorable member for Midlands the Leader of the Opposition and the has posed two questions, but I do not Deputy-Leader as well as to the Leader think they can be related to this section of the Country party and others. of the Estimates. However, he has In this connexion it is worth noting aired his views on the question of that this year there has 1been spent the accommodation at Parliament House for lowest amount ever required to be made drivers of Ministerial cars, and in some available. That is due to .the fact that obscure way he tried to relate the sub­ the Government has effected several ject to Government administration. It economies. We have purchased cars at seems most extraordinary that he should lower prices. For instance, two do so when: he realizes as well as I do­ Humber " Super Snipes " wer~ obtained perhaps better, since he has been a at a lower price because the Govern­ member of this House longer than 1- ment was prepared to take an older that the question of accommodation in model. this building is the prerogative of the President. Mr. CAMPBELL TURNBULL. - What Mr. STONEHAM.-It need not be here. sales tax was paid on them? Estimates. [4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Estimates. 3489

Mr. BOLTE.-The honorable member and salaries is relevant to this item, knows that no sales tax was paid on but nothing .beyond that may be them, nor· was sales tax paid on a debated. similar purchase by any previous Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I appreciate that Government. We were prepared to take and make the •point I have already an older model, as I said, in order to brought forward. This press emphasis save a couple of thousand pounds. On to which I have referred was apparently the question of the trading in of motor part of a campaign based on the parking vehicles, Ministerial and otherwise, the of cars in the vicinity of Parliament Government has adopted a policy of House during sittings, but the campaign endeavouring to trade cars in before itself, I understand, was directed at the they become an expense and burden on fact that it was alleged that Govern­ their particular division. In adopting ment cars were held outside the pre­ that policy the Government is effecting cincts for long periods and were appar­ a saving. If any Opposition member ently unused. It was inferred by a cares to raise the matter of the Bendigo section of the press that there was a or other country workshops being used gross waste and maladministration in for the servicing, maintenance and respeot of motor cars made available to repair of vehicles in particular areas of the Government and other political the State, I should be happy to express parties. I have stronrg objection to this to that member the views of the Govern­ or any other Government being influ­ ment. I think perhaps these would enced in its decisions in the direction of coincide with the opinions of the honor­ economies either respecting transport or able member concerned. any other services given to members of As to the question of the car drivers, Parliament. I strongly object to such I am more perturbed than the honorable a course ·by a section of the press which member who raised the matter, because has never ceased howling about the Government has taken certain steps privileges of politicians, both State. and and is only sorry that those steps have Federal. not been successful. Quite possibly the It is remarkable that these same press honorable member himself would have people provide 'far superior transport more influence with the .gentleman I facilities for their own employees and have mentioned than we have. If he pay bigger salaries than those paid by could use his good offices in that direc­ other institutions employing labour, tion we should be very grateful. while at the same time claiming to re­ Mr. LOVEGROVE (Carlton).-! take buke others in their editorials. We are this opportunity of expressing my per­ all aware of the industrial agreements sonal views as to certain press emphasis which these press people make pri­ · that has been placed upon the need for vately with their own employees. I take Government economies. Such a cam­ the view, and make no apology, that paign has been carried on by a section members of Parliament in Victoria en­ of the press in the past twelve months, joy wages and conditions which are the and it is a false emphasis. I intend to lowest of any Parliament in the Com­ be perfectly frank. I believe it was said monwealth. that because of the low-- The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Ra:fferty).-Order! The honorable Rafferty) .-Order! Will the honorable member for Carlton is outside the ambit member for Carlton indicate the item of this debate. The Committee is of the division he is now discussing? discussing the Premier's Department, and not the salaries of members of Mr. LOVEGROVE.-I am dealing with Parliament. the item which has to do with repairs Mr. LOVEGROVE.-If economies are to motor cars. to be effected in the matter of the The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-That is a tmnsport made available to certain matter for Parliament and not the members of this House, they should not Premier's Office. The question of cars he aimed at providing less service but, 3490 Estimates. [ASSEMBLY.] Estimates. on the contrary, greater service. Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-That is Victorian members perform more work just what I want to speak on; it is the in their constituencies than do those of very thing I was leading up to. If there any other Parliament in the Common­ were uniformity of sitting hours there wealth. Anybody who has had the would be no late sittings of Parliament opportunity of seeing the work done by or extra expenses incurred by late Victorian parliamentarians as compared sittings. I want to say something about with members in other States must agree the hypocrisy to be seen in the Govern­ with me that the standard of service, ment. When I raised the question of the time, and the sacrifice offered to . uniformity of hours in 1946 during the the public by Victorian members is not regime of the Cain Government, the inferior to any elsewhere but is, in fact, present Premier and the present Chief superior. I am one of those who were Secretary supported me. personally inconvenienced by a decision Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-Then there made in this Parliament, influenced by must be something wrong with them. a section. of the press when it attacked the transport facilities made available to Mr. MUTTON.-! say to the Leader members. I see no reason why I or of the Country party, "Get right back any other member should be personally· into your burrow in Gippsland South." inconvenienced. It is time the Govern­ The honorable member was one of those ment and this Parliament told the press who, during the regime of the Dunstan to mind its own business and direct Government, held the same view as I attention to places where it would am advocating now. There is no sane be far more effectively and wisely individual in the Government who employed. would support late sittings. I am only very sorry that the honorable member Mr. MUTTON (Coburg).-ln 1946, I for Hawthorn is not at the moment in advocated in this House, when speaking the House, but I could remind him that on the late sittings we then experienced, I showed him an extract from Hansard that there should be some system of bearing on this very matter. It included uniformity governing the hours of references made by the Minister of sitting. Later, that matter was brought Public Works, now seated at the table, before the House by the honorable who then also favoured uniformity of member for· Hawthorn. hours. The ACTING CJIAffiMAN (Mr. Sir THOMAS MALTBY.-And still Rafferty)._;Order! The matter before favours that proposal. I am on your the Committee is the administration of side. the Premier's Department, and I fail to Mr. MUTTON.-Unfortunately, those see what the .sittings of Parliament have members who supported me a few years to do with that. ago, including the present Premier and the Chief Secretary, were the very Mr. SHEPHERD (Leader of the members of this Government who would Opposition).-On a point of order, I not tolerate anything along the lines think if you, Mr. Acting Chairman, will of the proposition raised by one of peruse the item ·now before the Com­ their own supporters. I know that we mittee you will perceive that it has could bring about uniformity of hou~s. everything to do with the sittings of Other States have achieved it. Why Parliament. One portion of it refers cannot we come here at 10 o'clock in specifically to late sittings of Parlia­ the morning and "call it a day" by ·ment. If honorable members are not 11 o'clock at night? allowed some liberty in the course of the present debate, we are sure to be Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-Don't be silly! sitting very late hours to-night. No one will be on your side if you talk like that. The ACTING CHAIRMAN. - The item referred to relates to expenses in Mr. MUTTON.-! know that, under connexion with late sittings ·of Parlia­ certain conditions that operate, the ment. salaries of all those "little Bo-peeps" Estimates. [ 4 DECEMBER) 1957.] Estimat,es. 3491 who come from the country are subject Consideration should also be shown to a little bit of "cop "-that is, if to country members who have to return those members remain here after a to their homes on Thursdays between certain hour. That is the kind of thing 4 p.m. and 5 p.m., and so must absent I want to get rid of. Can any member themselves if the House is then still of the Government present tell me how sitting. In my opinion, the time has long this House will continue in session come when the· Government must intro­ to-night? Can anyone tell me whether duce uniform hours of sitting. Others we shall be coming back to-morrow and who suffer from late sittings are the sitting all day and night until Friday table officers, who render yeoman morning? No one could answer such service, the Hansard reporters, and the questions. We do not want legislation drivers who must drive members about by exhaustion. It would be quite com­ at all hours of the night. I suggest that petent for the Government to compel enormous expenditure is entailed by members to remain here all night· and long sittings. The Premier stated a half of to-morrow, but it would be far short time ago that in order to effect more sensible if our sittings were economies motor cars are being re­ planned as I have proposed. This could paired instead of new ones being pur­ and should be done. The honorable chased. Uniformity of hours of sitting member for Hawthorn will agree that would effect great economies, and would I handed to him excerpts from Hansard) be in the best interests of the State. which show that Government members who are now against uniformity of When this question was raised by the honorable member for· Hawthorn, I re­ hours for the Assembly, supported me alized that there was at least one mem­ when I broached this subject previously. ber on the Government side with Mr. MANSON.-That is quite right. common sense. Whichever party is Mr. MUTTON.-No argument can elected to office in 1958, I trust it will be advanced against the introduction of introduce a system of uniform sitting uniform hours for this House. Yesterday hours. When the honorable member the Premier made an announcement, for Gippsland South was Deputy which is unique in my experience, that Premier there were many late sittings, there will be an election on the 31st on one occasion extending into the May of next year for this House, that Saturday morning. the Council election will be held on the Sir HERBERT HYLAND.-! am on your 21st June, and that Parliament will meet side now. in March for one month. Mr. MUTTON.--! hope the honorable The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. member for Hawthorn will support my Rafferty). - Order! The honorable suggestion and that Cabinet will take member for Coburg is not confining his appropriate steps. remarks to Division 9 of the Estimates. The question of future elections has no Mr. MANSON (Hawthorn) .-I am relationship whatever to that division. delighted to hear the honorable member for Coburg speak on a subject which is Mr. MUTTON.-! am merely point­ dear to my heart. I am fortunate that ing out that the Premier knows what is he is interested in this subject because going to happen and realizes what he he was instrumental in drawing to my has to do. Most of the arguments attention some excerpts from Hansard. that were raised in reply to the hon­ I am please·d that the Minister of Public orable member for Hawthorn were ridi­ Works is present, because I wish to culous. The expense involved in send­ quote from a speech he made when he ing members home in private hire cars was the member for Barwon. On 30th at late hours of the night is not war­ November, 1950, at page 2854 of Han­ ranted, and is not in the best interests sard) he is reported as having said- of this State. Furthermore, the Parlia­ ! notice that increased provision is being mentary refreshment rooms lose money made to meet the cost of late sittings of through late sitting because after mid­ Parliament. Consideration should be night refre~hments are free to members. given to the wisdom of ho1ding late sittings, 3492 Estimates. [ASSEMBLY.] Est1:mates. not so much to restrict expenditure as to I have said enough, I hope, to show that overcome the damage that such sittings the suggestion that I made ei.ghteen have done to this Parliamentary institution. months ago-it had been made many The report of his speech on page 2855 years earlier-was sens1ble. It gives reads- me great pleasure to support a member M embers should face the facts. Justice on the Op.position side, because I think, cannot be done to the laws that members are asked to frame when they are mentally between us, if we battle long enough exhausted as the outcome of late sittings. and live long enough, we may achieve something worth while in the interests At page 2856 of Hansard of the 30th of this institution. November, 1950, the honorable member for Coburg said- Mr. LOVEGROVE (Carlton).-! join In my opinion there is a good deal of with the honorable member for Haw­ merit in the submissions of the honorable thorn in his criticism of the working of member for Barwon. this institution. I regard the procedure The honorable member respected the adopted as being unbusinesslike and wisdom that reposed in members of the unpractical. A similar state of ·affairs Government, and then he said- would never be tolerated by any busi­ Some years ago I raised the question of ness or trade union organjzation. None whether it would be possible for the House of those concerns would deal with its to sit uniform hours but my suggestion was affairs in the same way as this institu­ sneered at. ·I am not blaming this Govern­ tion discusses its business. Members ment any more than ;past Administrations for permitting late sittings of Parliament are asked to debate a Bill providing for but I believe that we should now endeavour the expenditure of millions of pounds to correct the wrong. after having been in attendance for On p·age 2856 of the same volume of many hours. There is opportunity in an Hansard, the then honorable member for institution of this nature for members Korong-now the Minister for Lands­ to exchange their ideas, but no person said- should be expected to discuss technical I wish to support the remarks of the and involved legislation after midnight honorable member for Barwon and the on any occasion. honorable member for Coburg on late sit­ tings of the House. Reference has been It has been said it is of political made to the strain on Hansard staff. I advantage for members of a party to agree that they have a gruelling time, but wearisomely reiterate the principles of I believe that :the Clerks suffer more than a piece of legislation, but I reject that others as the result of a late sitting. idea. Such a method will destroy the Then we come to the remarks of the intellectual integrity of a member. It honorable member for Kew, the also reduces the effectiveness of the Deputy Leader of the present Govern­ ability of a member to serve !both the ment who, on 'Page 2857 said- State and his party. I have had Prior to the suspension of the sitting, the misfortune to listen to repetitions the honorable member for Barwon and the since I have been a member, but appar­ honorable member for Coburg expressed thoughts similar to those which I have ently that appears to be the Parlia­ regarding the adoption of a definite routine mentary idea ·Of free speech. Parties in connexion with the proceedings in this should agree, on ·some occasions, on the Parliament. I know that my view will be number of speakers that will discuss supported by many other members. If this Parliamentary institution in which we all a measure and the time to be allocated believe, is to survive, something must be to each speaker. done to avoid the unfortunate incidents which occur from time to time in this I have been connected with confer­ House . . . I consider that this institu­ ences of employers since I was eighteen tion is many years behind the times. In years of age. I do not say that I am the British Parliament, on which this institution is modelled, definite agreements more accustomed to sitting at such a are come to, not by way of casual under­ conference table than are other mem­ takings or suggestions between the Leaders bers, but I have never in my career of the various parties, but by definite experienced in the name of democracy arrangements under which specified times are allotted for debates on the various the "scab" conditions that are found Bills or other matters to be dealt with. in this Parliament. If a business firm Mr. Manson. Estimates. [ 4 DECEMBER) 1957.] Estimates. 3493 tried to work .its employees for the hours expanded to such an extent as to fill in that are worked by members of this all the time available for Us perform­ institution that firm would be damned mance. I am wondering whether in that in the eyes of the world. Anyone who Department, which I have taken as an reads the Hansard reports of the Com­ example, the Parliament has not created monwealth Parliament realizes that pro­ a field of endeavour which is growing as cedures tO'lera ted in this Chamber would a sort of empire over which the Parlia­ not be allowed in Canberra or in any ment has little control. Great difficul­ other State Chamber. In those places, ties confront any conscientious private the hours of debate are laid down and member who attempts to save the there is no departure from them. For Government money. It occurred to me instance, in Canberra the dinner interval that the Government could save money is of two hours, and limitations are on advertising vacancies and so on, by placed on the hours at which the sitting taking advantage of contract rates. On shall cease each night. I do not know the 7th June, 1956, I directed the atten­ whether anything can be done in the tion of the Deputy Premier to the dying hours of this sessional period, but matter and followed up my original I hope that when the next Parliament letter with a number of further requests assembles members will try to make asking how the matter was progressing. arrangements by which the affairs of After about six months I found that the State will be discharged with some action had been taken, but I was greater · dignity and profit to this not satisfied with it. Any honorable institution. member is at liberty to inspect my file on the subject. Ultimately, I discovered Mr. CHRISTIE (Ivanhoe).-! am that the sum of £2,800 had been saved thankful to the honorable member for on advertising this year. There is no Carlton in that I have not to apologize doubt that any attempt to save public for my speech being more solid than, and money is met with a closing of the ranks. made in an atmosphere different from, that which prevailed a little while ago. I have been criticized previously in The Committee has before it the solemn regard to the Committee of Public task of discussing the expenditure of Accounts. About fourteen months ago £145,000,000, which 'is a large sum of that committee suggested the .establish­ money. I may have a wrong concept ment of an organization and methods of the way in Which business should division within the Treasury with the be conducted in this Chamber, but if deliberate objective of saving money. I one approaches the matter from the understand that some action has been point of view of ibeing a member of a taken, but it is rather fiddling. During board of directors one finds that one is the last few weeks the Public Service suffering from frustration and boredom. Board has decided to establish an That forces a member into saying things organization and methods section, and that he may later regret, and that prob­ has created a position for which it has lem faces all new members. If this invited applications. Parliament is to survive, however, we will have to be jealous of the pr.ivileges The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. applicable to the institution, and we Rafferty) .-Order! I am having diffi­ must fight for their preserva ti-On. ' culty in relating the remarks of the hon­ orable member for Ivanhoe about a pro­ Being concerned at the great cost of posed special division in the Treasury running the Public Service, I investi­ to the Premier's Office. I suggest that gated the formation of the Premier's his comments might be better dealt with Department, which twenty years ago did under item No. 47. not exist. In that period, it has grown to such an extent that the total staff Mr. CHRISTIE.-! bow to your ruling, now is 339, 41 of whom were appointed Mr. Acting Chairman. The Premier's during the last year. Of course, it is Department appears to be growing each asserted that there is more work to do, year. I support the remarks of the but what is work? Apparently it can be honorable member for Carlton, and 3494 Estimates. [ASSEMBLY.] Estimates.

trust that the combined efforts of the Mr. SCHINTLER (Footscray).-I Committee will assist in achieving support the remarks of the honorable reasonable executive management of member for Williamstown. During the the affairs of the State. last session I left home at a quarter to Mr. FLOYD (Williamstown) .-I wish ten one morning and arrived home the to point out that the reason why a next morning at quarter past six. I number of honorable members favour had just got into bed when a consti­ tuent, on his way to work, knocked at the institution of uniform hours for the sittings of Parliament is to enable 'them the door to discuss wi.th me a hole in to discharge their proper functions in the road. After having listened fo• about 24 hours to some eloquence, some their electorates. Sitting here until 3 statements of common sense and a good o'clock in the morning arguing on legal Bills interferes with members' duties in deal of padding, I was not in a flt con­ dition to deal with the matter. If back­ their electorates and merely adds to the bench members on the Government side cost of running Parliament. We cannot of the House had not been so tolerant of do our job properly when we are half the Government's views, no doubt much stunned through exhaustion. One be­ more padding would have been added to comes irritable and short-tempered and the debate, and the sitting hours would not capable of clear thinking. Some have extended over an even longer people think that a recess of four or period. It is time this institution made five months is a picnic for members and a businesslike and sensible approach to no doubt some " clever Dick " would the hours of sitting. suggest that we are seeking shorter hours in order to loaf. Of course, Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).­ recesses are necessary; otherwise, Mini­ In accordance with the Premier's desire sters would not have time in which .to that individual matters should be replied prepare legislation or to receive deputa­ to as they arise, I shall discuss some tions, and country members would not be of the points raised under this item. able to get around their electorates. I The problem of late sittings has been am not criticizing the Government, with us for a long time. This Govern­ which has apparently fallen into the ment is rather proud of the fact that same trap as other Governments. I do there have been only two or three late not know whether it is necessary to pass sittings during its term of office. If any legislation by exhaustion, but that honorable member feels that he has appears to be the way in which things been used up let me recount what hap­ work out. If Parliament sat from about pened in 1953 when we were in Oppo­ 11 o'clock in the morning until a reason­ sition and were putting up with what able hour at night the staff would not has been complained about to-night. On be exhausted and money would be saved. Tuesday, 8th December, 1953, the House The kitchen and dining-room staff would sat at 4 o'clock in the afternoon and not have to work long hours and car adjourned at 5 minutes past 1 o'clock drivers would be able to live a human on the following Wednesday morning. existence. In addition, honorable mem­ Mr. SHEPHERD.-What was under bers would be able to obtain the views discussion? of their constituents and reflect them in this Chamber. On many occasions Mr. RYLAH.-The Motor Car Fees members speak with the sole object of Bill was under discussion when the filling in and avoiding an accusation House adjourned. We believe that the· that they are letting some measure slip Opposition has a right to express its through. Two or three speakers on views in the House and we do not com­ each side of the House really do the plain if the Opposition takes a long time bulk of the work on the Bills debated; to do so. On Wednesday, the 9th Decem­ the rest supply the padding. If the ber, the House sat at 11 o'clock and con­ suggestion were adopted, the press tinued sitting until 20 minutes past would not be so keen to assert how 3 o'clock on Thursday :morning. It then Parliament sits all hours of the night adjourned until 11 o'clock the same day, to rush into recess. and adjourned at 23 minutes past 12 on Estimates. [ 4 DECEMBER} 1957.] Estimates. 3495

Friday morning. It resumed sitting at to see members and Ministers from time 11 o'clock on the same day, and finally to time, but members generally do not adjourned at 49 minutes past 9 o'clock face the problems with which we on Saturday morning. Honorable mem­ are confronted in Melbourne. They bers who have spoken to-night about know that when they go to bed they frustration through exhaustion can will not be disturbed until 8 o'clock the imagine what we felt like on that next morning, when they are called for occasion. breakfast, whereas, as the honorable member for Footscray has said, we are The present Government has done at the beck and call of our constituents its utmost to ensure that there will at all times. Personally, I am very glad not be late sittings whenever it is we are. I believe we have a contact possible to avoid them. However, there with the people which is very important are problems to be confronted. Ministers and valuable and I take the honorable have a job to do and they have to carry member for Ivanhoe to task for a out. their duties irrespective of when the remark he made to-night. He said that House is sitting. I believe that the we were considering the Estimates in Government on all occasions has an atmosphere of levity. I was here at attempted to meet the wishes of honor­ 8 o'clock when the debate commenced, able members, and my colleagues and and he was not. At one stage, I con­ myself have been only too ready to help sidered the discussion was getting a bit honorable members irrespective of the too serious and heated over a matter party to which they belong and at any which was not terribly important. If time of the day. Whatever problem is the honorable member for Ivanhoe to be faced, we will meet people and happened to return to the Chamber talk with them in an endeavour to help when there was some levity over some if we can. It is extraordinary to note remarks that had been made, I can the number of honorable members who assure him that was not the general are absent from the Chamber during the tenor of the debate. The Estimates period when the House is sitting. I have been considered seriously and know there are reasons for their absence, properly, and I welcome the debate that and I am not complaining about it. In has taken place on particular matters sitting hours, they are confronted with under discussion. similar problems to those which Minis­ ters have to face at all times. There is a limit to I know that we have shortcomings the amount a man can do in a and most of us are aware of them, but week. Quite frankly, I say that honor­ I suggest that there is no easy solution able members are unwise in decrying to the problem of sitting hours of this institution as some of them have Parliament whilst honorable members done to-night. I believe that the com­ are doing the job they are performing parison that was made with Canberra is a shocking one from our point of at the present time. It is very easy to view. True it is that the Federal Par­ say, "We should not sit late to-night, liament adheres to fixed hours. How­ but should meet early to-morrow." ever, they do so by constant use of the That is all very well for those members who live in the city. It is easy for us guillotine. It is used on debates, on the to attend on the following day, but it adjournment, and at other times. It has been used ruthlessly by either party is a different matter for the honorable when it has been in power to ensure member for Benambra, the honorable that the sitting hours comply with the member for Midlands, the Minister for times laid down. Water Supply, and other country mem­ bers who might have commitments on Further, in Canberra honorable mem­ the following day in· their electorates. It bers have not people coming to see them can be said that it is wrong for them at all times of the day in order to dis­ to enter into commitments when they cuss their problems. It is true that know there is a possibility the House there are professional log rollers who might be sitting. However, they have hang around the corridors and attempt other important matters to attend to 3496 Estimates. [ASSEMBLY.] Estimates. and often they can be caused embarrass­ mentarians in Victoria as comparable ment through a change in the pro­ with what occurs in the Federal gramme of the House. I am being Parliament. perfectly frank in regard to this matter, Mr. RYLAH.--That is a lie. I did not but I urge members not to be too say anything of the sort. critical of themselves. We are giving service to the community and, irrespec­ Mr. FENNESSY.-! object to the tive of party, in the two and a half remarks of .the Chief Secretary and years this Government has been in ask for a withdrawal. office, I believe honorable members have The ACTING CHAffiMAN (Mr. carried out their duties admirably. Barclay).-! call upon the Chief Secretary to withdraw the remarks to Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).­ which objection has been taken. ! can quite understand the sentiments expressed by the Chief Secretary, and Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).-! will to a large degree I suppose it can be withdraw, Sir, but the remarks of . the easily said that much of what he has honorable member for Brunswick East said is true. However, I do not agree are untrue. with the comparison he has made con­ Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).­ cerning what happens in the Federal I quite understand the attitude of Parliament and what happens here. I the Chief Secretary. As I said before, con.sider that all Federal parliamen­ whenever he is taken to task or ·crossed tarians have just as much responsibility . in argument he loses his balance. to their constituents and just as much Mr. RYLAH.-I do not. What I abject work to do for them as any State to is dishonest criticism. parliamentarian has. Mr. FENNESSY.-Unfortunately, the Mr. RYLAH.-I did not say anything Chief Secretary has the idea to the contrary. I simply said that that whatever he says in the House 1is being in Canberra they were free correct. I claim that it ls the privilege from the daily calls we get here. The of the Opposition to criticize anything honorable member for Brunswick East that emanates from the Government is deliberately misinterpreting my side of the House. remarks. Mr. RYLAH.-But not to distort it.

Mr. FENNESSY.-The Chief Secre­ Mr. FENNESSY.-! do not intend 1to tary has made his speech, and I suggest distort anything. I listened to what the that he should allow me to make mine. Chief Secretary had to say, and I do not Mr. RYLAH.-1 was defending the think my interpretation of his remark position of the honorable member for is incorrect. I agree that the business Footscray, and you are misinterpreting of this House is most important. I feel and distorting to the best of your ability that it is so important that we should what I had to say. I was attempting to devote more time to what takes place be fair, but you cannot be. · here. I do not believe that our sitting hours should be from four o'clock to mid­ Mr. FENNESSY.-! object to the night, as has been the practice for many remarks of the Chief Secretary. I am years. I do not think I am unreasonable attempting to be fair and I think I am in making that statement. I believe that just as reasonable as he is. Unfortu­ practice has been adopted for the nately, when he is criticized he has a specific reason that the business people habit of losing the balance he sometimes on the Government side of the House preserves in this Chamber. can attend to their business interests Mr. RYLAH.-Only when my remarks in the day and give secondary con­ are deliberately distorted. sideration to the affairs of Parliament. Mr. FENNESSY.-That is not the Mr. RYLAH.--Whom are you ac.cusing case. The Chief Secretary said that he now? could not regard the business of this Mr. FENNESSY.-! make that House and the business of parlia- statement in all sincerity. Estimates. [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Estimates. 3497

Mr. RYLAH.-1 ask for a withdrawal Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).­ as it is completely untrue. Since I have been a member of this in­ The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. stitution the question of late sittings has Barclay).-To what statement does the been referred to on many occasions. I Chief Secretary object? can understand the desire of members of the Country party to return to Mr. RYLAH.-The honorable member their own homes. Members represent­ for Brunswick East said that members ing metropolitan electorates have the on this side of the House attend to same desire. I know of no reason why their business affairs in the day-time Parliament should not meet at 11 a.m. :and, for that reason, do not wish and adjourn at 10.30 p.m. Similar Parliament to meet until four o'clock hours apply in the Federal sphere. in the afternoon. Mr. RYLAH.-By use of the guillotine. Mr. FENNESSY.-! did not say that. I said that many members on the Govern­ Mr. FENNESSY.-The Chief Secre­ ment side of the House have businesses tary may consider that repetition of to attend to during the day and they discussion is unnecessary. feel that the business of Parliament Mr. RYLAH.-In the Federal Parlia­ is of secondary consideration. ment members are not given an oppor­ Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).­ tunity to speak. ! ask for a withdrawal of that state­ Mr. FENNESSY.-Whenever I have ment as it is even worse than what was visited the Federal Parliament I have said originally. noticed that the members are given The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. plenty of time to discuss the affairs of Barclay) .-Order! I ask the honorable their constituencies. If the guillotine member for Brunswick East to with­ has been applied, it has been only in the draw the statement that has been past nine years since the Liberal party objected to. has formed the Government. Doubtless, the members of that party do not wish Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).­ to hear the logic that emanates from If I have hurt the feelings of the Chief Opposition members. I think it will be Secretary, I withdraw my remarks. I agreed that Opposition members in this am concerned only with what has House have never, because of a malicious happened in this fortieth Parliament intent, delayed the ,passage of any Bill. of which I am a member. Having In my opinion, the back-bench members devoted my full time to the business of of the Government party are completely the House and my constituents-- frustrated. Mr. RYLAH.-Are you suggesting that Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).-On I have not? a point of order, although the question Mr. FENNESSY.-No, I am not of frustration of members is interesting, making any personal 1attack. I do not think it is relev~nt to Mr. SHEPHERD.-Members of the Division 9. Labour party have already stated that THE ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. the Chief Secretary attempts to do too Barclay).-The:rie is no point of order. much. In Division 9 reference .is made to the Mr. FENNESSY.-The Chief Sec­ late sittings of Parliament. retary has the idea that he himself Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).­ must run the entire business of the I realize how back-bench members on House. the Government side of the Chamber Mr. COCHRANE (Gippsland West).­ feel. However, they will have an op­ On a point of order, will the honor­ portunity in the near future, when they able member for Brunswick East are the Opposition, to state their views explain what item he is discussing? as individuals. Thus, they will have the right which they are denied at present. The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. Opposition members have contributed Barclay).-There is no point of order. a great deal of logic to the debates in 3498 Estimates. [ASSIDMBLY.] Estimates. this Chamber, ·and on numerous oc­ Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).­ casions the Government has accepted I was referring to the fact that mem­ amendments submitted from this (the bers of the Country party and Opposi­ Opposition) side of the Chamber. I tion members who represent rural and challenge the Chief Secretary to deny urban electorates give their undivided that statement. attention to the business of the House. That, of course, has a good deal to do Mr. FRASER.-! deny it. with the late sitting of Parliament. Mr. FENNESSY.-! recall that dur­ Therefore, I do not think that my ing the debate on the Tourist Bill, apart remarks are out of order. from what happened outside the Cham­ The ACTING CHAffiMAN.-Does the ber- honorable member wish to dispute the The ACTING CHAIRMAN.-Order! ruling of the Chair? · The Tourist Bill has nothing to do with Mr. FENNESSY.-No, I am merely the matter under discussion. advancing an argument as to why I Mr. FENNESSY.-! was merely an­ consider my remarks to be relevant. swering an interjection by the Honorary For the reasons that I have enumerated, Minister (Mr. Fraser). I consider that I agree with the submissions made by it should be the first duty of a mem­ the honorable member for Hawthorn ber of Parliament to look after the some months ago that this Parliament interests of his constituents. I have should adopt !business hours. I am sure heard Government supporters assert that honorable members generally will that the business of this House inter­ agree that it is not possible for an honor­ feres with their private occupations. If able member to give the best possible that is the case, they should not be consideration to legislation in the late members of this institution. As far as hours of the night or the early hours of I am concerned, the problems of my the morning. In .the trade union move­ constituents have the first call on my ment three shifts a day are recognized­ time. I can understand that certain the day shift, the afternoon shift and members who hold what might the night shift. A man working on the be called "dickey seats" may find it day shift is considered to be able to do necessary to keep in touch with the complete justice to his job. A man on business world in order that they will the afternoon shift works from 4 p.m. have a job to go to when they are until midnight and is paid penalty rates. defeated at an election. Consequently, That has been decided iby the greatest those members regard the problems of industrial tribunal in this country-the their constituents as of secondary im­ Arbitration Court. portance only. Country party members Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ invariably give their undivided attention On a point of order, I suggest that the to the· business of the House. Many of honorable member be asked to confine them own farms, but they employ his remarks to Division 9. managers to conduct them while they are attending to Parliamentary business. The ACTING CHAffiMAN (Mr. Barclay) .-Order! I ask the honorable Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ member for Brunswick !East to confine On a point of order, I suggest that the his remarks to the subject matter before honorable member for Brunswick East the Committee. be asked to relate his remarks to Division 9 of the Estimates. Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).­ ! am attempting to draw an analogy The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. between operations in outside industry Barclay).--Order! The last few re­ and those ·of this institution. In out­ marks of the honorable member have side industry, if employees were required been wide of the mark. I ask him to to work from four p.m. until mid­ return to a discussion of the items under night, a penalty loading woulci be consideration. received. Estirnates. [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Estimates. 3499

Mr. FRASER (Honorary Minister).­ Mr. HOLDEN.-What about the Min­ ! rise to a further point of order. I isters? take this opportunity of indicating to Mr. FENNESSY.-! appreciate that the honorable member for Brunswick Ministers have a task to perform and East that if he persists with this matter that they cannot be in two places at the I shall have no alternative than to one time. However, they generally have move that he be no longer heard. good " back stops " in the permanent I do not wish to do that. heads of their Departments. I would The ACTING CHAIRMAN (Mr. not be so eulogistic as to suggest that Barclay).-The honorable member for if a Minister were not present in his Brunswick East is straying a little wide Department at a ·certain time of the of the mark. I ask him to keep to the morning, its business and transac­ point. tions would cease. I have worked suf­ Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).­ ficiently long in a Commonwealth ! should like you, Mr. Chairman, to Government Department to know just indicate in what way I am straying what the permanent heads of Depart­ from the mark. Of course, I can under­ ments do. With all due respect to stand the attitude of the Honorary the Ministers, I contend that many of Minister on this matter because what the activities of Government Depart­ I am saying is unpalatable to him. ments are carried on by the permanent However, it has a bearing on the ques­ heads. When all is said and done, tion of late sittings. I am endeavouring frequently the Minister is merely a to prove that in outside industry it is rubber stamp. The honorable member acknowledged that there is a certain for Moonee Ponds should not have any amount of mental fatigue associated illusions that a Minister-probably he with afternoon and night shifts. I claim will aspire to that post some day­ that the same mental fatigue can operate dictates the policy of his Department. in this House when members are re­ The policy is laid down and the system quired to sit at late hours. I support of administration is carried out very the views presented by some members effectively by the permanent head and of this Chamber, including Government his staff. supporters, that the business of Parlia­ In connexion with my argument that ment should be conducted in the day­ sittings of Parliament should be con­ time, when members could devote their fined to the hours of 11 a.m. until full and undivided attention to the task. 10.30 p.m., I point out that the Chief Speaking from my own personal ex­ Secretary has used only one argument perience, I know that I am not as alert against that contention, namely, that in the late hours of the night as I am wherever those hours are adopted, the during the day time. I appreciate the guillotine is used excessively. However, fact that for obvious reasons I had to in my experience the guillotine is not make my maiden speech at half-past used so much as the Chief Secretary two in the morning. endeavoured to convey to this House. Mr. CHRISTIE.-Did you say it was a Mr. BROSE (Rodney) .-I do not wish speech? to miss this opportunity of referring Mr. FENNESSY.-It would be refer­ to the activities of the Soil Conservation red to as a speech in this House. The Authority. While it may be of com­ honorable member for Ivanhoe may call parative recent origin, the work of it what he likes; I assume that being that Authority is tremendously the occupant of a very dignified posi­ important. It faces many problems tion at times, he might regard it in a and honorable members should be somewhat different light. I claim that acquainted with some of its activities. in the best interests of this institution, I keep in touch with the Soil it would be preferable if the hours of Conservation Authority because I am sitting were confined to a reasonable familiar with the work it undertakes period-say, from 11 a.m. until 10.30 and what it has done since its :inception. p.m. My only criticism is that it comes under 3500 Estimates. [ASSEMBLY.] Estimates. the jurisdiction of the wrong Depart­ stages, are frequently difficult to over­ ment. It seems wrong that an authority come. However, the advent of this established for the purpose of conserving machine will certainly enable problems soil should come within the administra­ to be handled more expeditiously in tion of the Premier's Department, which future. Again I commend the Autho­ means that the secretary of that Depart­ rity for doing splendid work under ment is really the head ·Of the Authority. adverse circumstances. The accountant of the Premier's De­ Mr. FENNESSY (Brunswick East).­ partment could do a good deal to hamper It is estimated that in the financial year the activities of the Soil Conservation 1957-58 a sum of £90,000 will :be re­ Authority. I suggest that it would ibe quired for salaries, including allowances, more appropriate to place the Authority payments in lieu of long service leave, under the jurisdiction of the Minister of gratuities, and so on, for the Soil Water Supply. The activities Di the Conservation Authority. I remind mem­ State Rivers and Water Supply Commis­ bers of a statement that I made previ­ sion and the Soil Conservation Authority ously_;it has been supported by the are very similar. Much of the erosion Leader of the Country party-in rela­ which the Authority seeks to correct is tion to the amount of money which has caused by water. During my travels been paid in lieu of long service leave. throughout Victoria, I have seen some In every Department each year, provi­ of the splendid work that is being done sion is made for similar expenditure, by the Authority in the best interests and it is time that the Public Service of the State. Unfortunately, much of Board was reminded that long service the work is not appreciated because it leave was intended as a period of re­ is not observed. For example, a very cuperation. This matter has ibeen raised bad patch of roadway, which has been by the trade union movement year after eroded, may be repaired, but motorists year, and the full wei1ght of argument passing over it would not realize the that has been presented to the Arbitra­ vast change that had taken place. tion Court on the question of long ser­ I commend the :Soil Conservation vice leave is on the basis that a person, Authority for introducing to this coun­ after twenty years' service in any par­ try from America a most valuable piece ticular job, should be provided with a of equipment known as the Finn stabili­ certain amount of leave to be used as zation equipment. Honorable members a recuperative period. This would en­ who visited the Upper Yarra dam able him to ·return to work invigorated last week observed some of the splendid after his spell. But I find that in the work that had ibeen done with it. Straw State Public Service that procedure is and bitumen are forced through the disregarded completely. nozzle of the machine on to the surface The chairman of the Public Service of the land, thereby facilitating growth Board has discretionary power. He may that will assist to prevent erosion. -not shall-grant to any employee long Further evidence of the value of this service leave after twenty years' service. machine can be seen just beyond the There have been differences on this Camberwell railway station and at Bur­ subject among certain members of the wood, near the Presbyterian Ladies Service, but I am not concerned about College. The equipment has been rented the desires of individual persons-my to another Department and, at present, concern is with the principle involved. it is being used in connexion with the Many public servants who enjoy good Snowy mountains scheme. I commend health may prefer to work until they the Soil Conservation Authority for its reach the age of 65 years and then foresight in obtaining this equipment receive a payment in lieu of long service which will have beneficial effects leave. This defeats the whole object of throughout the State. The Country the trade union movement in pressing Roads Board and other Government for this leave. It is argued that it Departments are continually· striving to is· essential for long service leave to combat soil erosion problems which, be taken after twenty years of employ­ unless they are attacked in the early ment for purely recuperative reasons, so Mr. Brose. Estimates. [ 4 DECEMBER, 1957.J Estimates. 3501 that the person concerned can, upon in lieu of long service leave. To me, returning to his job, work with 100 per the inference is obvious; the honorable cent. efficiency. I realize that the member is worried also. Apparently he chairman of the Public Service Board agrees with me on this matter of has been appointed to his office only principle. It is time the Government, recently. When the previous chairman if it accepts the principle that leave is retired, he drew a considerable sum of to be used for recuperative purposes, money in lieu of leave. gave a direction to the Public Service Mr. FRASER.-Your argument loses Board. I do not consider that the its point now that he has retired. services of any member of the Public Service are indispensable. If a member Mr. FENNESSY.-! repeat that he goes on leave, the whole business of drew payment in lieu of leave. a Department will not collapse. Mr. FRASER.-That was his privilege, Apparently many permanent officers are if he so desired. · afraid to allow juniors to step up and Mr. FENNESSY.-The chairman of relieve them while they go on leave. the Board has, under the Public Service Mr. PETTY.-Do you mean that senior Act, the privilege of granting any officers of the Public Service will employee in the service of the Govern­ not take long service leave because they ment leave after twenty years service. are afraid of juniors taking their jobs? Why is the leave not granted? Mr. FENNESSY.-! ·can draw only Mr. FRASER.-Has the chairman ever that conclusion. refused to grant it? Mr. PETTY.-Do you seriously apply Mr. FENNESSY. - Refusals have that motive to senior public servants? been made on many occasions. The Mr. FENNESSY.-No. I contend argument is used that the exigencies of that the Public Service Board chairman the Service will not permit officers to has a right in the matter. take leave. That is ridiculous. Officers employed by Commonwealth Depart­ Mr. PETTY.-Does he " knock back " ments are rarely paid in lieu of leave. officers who really want their leave? Generally, in well-conducted Depart­ Mr. FENNESSY.-Yes. Such in- ments, a relieving staff is employed. stances have occurred in the Melbourne Such a system has been in vogue in the and Metropolitan Tramways Board. Railway Department for years. When Mr. PETTY.-In my opinion, they an employee becomes sick, he is replaced would be exceptional cases. by a member of the relieving staff. Mr. FENNESSY.-This has happened The system should be extended to cover in the Railway Department, the tram­ employees taking long service leave. If ways Board and other Departments. every officer was granted leave when it Generally speaking, the average public became due, other persons would have servant has accepted the viewpoint the opportunity of occupying more that long service leave is to be used senior jobs for a time and receiving a not as a recuperative period, but as pay­ higher duties allowance. ment in lieu upon retirement. I do not Mr. CHRISTIE.-What about these late agree with that argument, nor does the sessions? trade union movement as a whole. So Mr. FENNESSY.-! realize that the long as I have breath, I shall continue logic of my argument is wasted on to protest against the inclusion, in any members on the Government side of the division of the Estimates, of sums for House, but so long as I am a member I payments in lieu of long service leave. intend to express my view on this Mr. CHRISTIE (Ivanhoe).-! wish question. The Leader of the Country to refer to the Audit Office. First, I party has directed attention to this want to say that I enjoy criticism, as I matter by asking the Treasurer, by a always relish giving it where I feel it question on notice, to state the amount justified, and I consider that the criti­ paid last financial year by each Govern­ cism of the Chief Secretary, which he ment Department and instrumentality uttered in defence of my view on the 3502 Estimates. [ASSEMBLY. j Adjournment. subject of rather lighthearted approval misunderstanding about this matter, I of the expenditure of £145,000,000, was suggest that progress be reported at a little ill chosen. I certainly was absent this stage, and I shall make sure, when from this Committee to-night from 8 the debate is resumed in the morning, p.m. to 9 p.m., by arrangement with the that the recommendation of the Com­ Whip, because of a long-standing invita­ mittee of Public Accounts on this tion requiring my urgent attendance in question is read to members. Then my electorate. I went out and returned there can be no suggestion that it has at my own expense, and stayed at a not been communicated to them. function for half-an-hour, which was the minimum time. It is unusual for me Progress was reported. to be absent from this Committee. I wish to make that expIan a ti on very . clearly and definitely. I do not think ADJOURNMENT. there was any defence against the Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).­ criticism which I offered. ! move- Regarding the Audit Office, I submit That the House, at its rising, adjourn it is appropriate for me to raise a matter until to-morrow, at half-past Ten o'clock. which rather appealed to the Leader of The motion was agreed to. the Opposition when the honorable member for Melbourne submitted an The House adjourned at 11.1 p.m. amendment to the Audit Bill. The Minis­ ter at the table at the time said that it went too far, and I had the temerity to say I did not think it went far enough. The Leader of. the Opposition took LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. advantage of that in a nice way to point out a certain amount of disagreement on Thursday, December 5, 1957. the Government side. At that stage, the Chief Secretary, who was handling this matter for the Treasurer, under­ took to refer a suggested amendment to The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager) the Committee of Public Accounts. My took the chair at 11.28 a.m., and read objection under this heading is that the the prayer. Audit Office is working very well, we understand, but the question of a new Act covering it and the · improvement POLICE DEPARTMENT. of an amendment to that Act wa_s NUMBER OF VEHICLES. brought before this House and was referred to an outside body. I should The Hon. C.H. BRIDGFORD (South­ like to feel that this Parliament is para­ Eastern Province) asked the Minister mount and should be advised at some of Transport- stage of the fate of this sort of extra­ How many-(i) motor cars; and (ii) mural attention to the suggested motor cycles, were owned by the Police Department on 1st December, 1954, 1955, amendment. 1956, and 1957, respectively? Mr. RYLAH (Chief Secretary).­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of ! find it hard to understand the point Transpor.t).-The answer is- raised by the honorable member for m ou Ivanhoe, because I felt that the Commit­ Motor Vehicles (other than Motor tee of Public Accounts had considered Motor Cycles). Cy cl ea. the suggestion he had made and had 1st December, 1954 173 76 reported to this House. I assumed that 1st December, 1955 184 86 the report was in the hands of honorable 1st December, 1956 195 150 members. So that there can be no 1st December, 1957 202 155 Police Offences [5 DECEMBER, 19'57.] (Cruelty to Animals) Bill. 3503

USE OF PRIVATE CARS FOR OFFICIAL POLICE OFFENCES (CRUELTY TO PURPOSES. ANIMALS) BILL. The Hon. C. H. BRIDGFORD (South­ The House went into Committee for Eastern Province) asked the Minister the further consideration of this Bill. of Transport- Consideration was · resumed of the (a) Are members of the Police Force proposed new clause to follow clause using private cars ·for official pur:poses; if 3- so-(i) whose cars are they; and (ii) what A. At the end of section sixty-one of the is the .cost per mile, or other basis of principal Act there shall be inserted the payment? following sub-section:- (b) How many such cars have been use

of an agitation outside, although a The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-! am not strong mass of public opinion may speaking for or against Mr. Galbally's condemn the sport. People who engage amendment. All I am saying is that the in it should have an opportunity to Country party does not intend to support info~m members of their opinions. it, and will vote against it to-day. The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-They want it to continue. The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash Province) .-The attitude of my party The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-Probably, has already been stated by my Leader. but they may wish to suggest In my -opinion, the Country party is modifications to the proposed legislation showing remarkable inconsistency in or express other views. this matter. In view of the fact that The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-It is a that party has originated so many goorl wonder they did not put them to measures, surely it is prepared to sup­ Mr. Dodgshun. port any .provision to further the law relating to cruelty to animals. The fact The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-They did. that this matter has been presented in The Bill died a natural death in the a somewhat abrupt manner is no reas-on Assembly because many members of all why it should be rejected. If the Bill parties intimated that they would not can be enlarged in the way Mr. Galbally have anything to do with it. suggests, why should this Committee The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-That is refuse to do so? The mere fact that wrong. The Government would not people have not continually complained bring it on again because it was sub­ to Mr. Byrnes about this senseless jected to pressure at the end of a cruelty is no reason why he should reject double-barrelled shotgun! the body of public opinion which exisb. The Hon. P.' T. BYRNES.-! cannot If the same sport can be enjoyed by recall what happened regarding the Bill. shooters firing at clay .pigeons, why It has been stated, in effect, that the should not cl:ay pigeons be used? Ar­ measure was killed from outside, not rangements were made some time ago inside Parliament; if that allegation for parIi amen tarians to indulge in a were true, it would not be recorded in day's clay bird shooting. Members of Hansard. This is a controversial gun clubs are usually town dwellers and subject, and if the gun dubs are to be do not shoot for a living. The shooting condemned for using live birds they of ducks is understandable because that should have an opportunity to present is shooting game. a ca·se. No party represented in this Parliament has been more eager to The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-Have you protect the rights of the individual to ever been to the opening of a duck sea­ express his views regarding proposed son' and seen what goes on there? legislation than the Labour party. The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-Allow­ The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-! have ing trap shooting to continue is not always understood that by attending a granting liberty, but is a licence to be duck seiason opening one incurs tlhe risk cruel. of a double fiatality, and not always of The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-Unfor­ ducks. I once attended a hare shoot tunately, the world is full of cruelty. with a gentleman whc had the mis­ Some day perhaps the spirit of the fortune to have his hat blown from his founder of Christianity may permeate head in the process of climbing through the world and there will be no cruelty. a fence, so I realize how dangerous guns One is appalled that there is so much can be. Trap shooting is not shooting cruelty and so much hardship in this for game purposes but is merely a world. nauseating method of destruction which The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-This is is abhorrent to decent-thinking people. your chance to show a little Christmas For that reason, there is no argument goodwill. against this amendment. Session 1956.-143 3506 Crimes [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

The House divided on the proposed tern the presumption of innocence rests new clause (the Hon. D. J. Walters in upon an accused until he is proved the chair)- to be guilty. Ayes 13 Under the Bill, the Government has Noes 15 seen fit to introduce a new procedure whereby a medical certificate, stating Majority against the what is commonly referred to as the new clause . . 2 alcohol content of the blood of the AYES. defendant, can be put in as evidence. As a general proposition, I do not like Mr. Arnott I Mr. Slater Mr. Brennan Mr. Smith that proposal. It is another of those Mr. Ferguson Mr. Thomas actions that is gnawing away at our Mr. Galbally Mr. Tilley. ancient liberties. Following an Mr. Little Tellers: examination of the Bill, we may say, Mr. Machin Mr. Bailey Mr. Rawson Mr. Jones " There does not seem to be much I

PAIR. Members of our party will not vote against the proposal, but we urge the Mr. Sheehy I Mr. Chandler. Government to hasten slowly in this The Bill was reported to the House matter. There are weighty reasons why without am2ndment, and passed through doctors should not have to attend the its remaining stages. court, but there are equally weighty reasons :why an accused person should CRIMES (AMENDMENT) BILL. not lose any of the rights that have been established over the centuries. The debate (adjourned from November 19) on the motion of the The Government should carefully Hon. G. S. McArthur (Minister of consider another provlSlon in . the Forests) for the second reading of this measure during the Committee stage. Bill was resumed. The Bill proposes to give a member of the Police Force the same powers of The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ arrest for " driving under the influence " bourne North Province) .-This Bill misdemeanours as for felonies. I should be examined carefully by all realize that there are some practical members as it proposes to make difficulties as the law now stands, but changes in the law, particularly I think the Government has gone too far in relation to· offences known as the other way, and at the appropriate " driving under the influence." In time I will suggest an intermediate his explanatory speech, the Minister course. At present, the law gives an told the House of the difficulties mem­ arresting constable power . to arrest a bers of the medical profession were driver suspected of driving under the experiencing in having to attend court influence of alcohol if he is actually to give evidence, which is often merely driving a vehicle. So far as I know~ formal in these matters. We all objection has not been taken to that appreciate how busy medical men are, power, which has been exercised by and I suppose one must concede that it the apprehension of the driver when is irksome for them to be summoned the vehicle has stopped. If any doubt to attend courts. It is also irksome for has arisen over that practice, it is an accused person, and under our sys- desirable to clear the matter up. In Crimes [5 DECEMBER, 19'57.J (Amendment) Bill. 3507 those circumstances, we would have no warrant, arrest a man for this offence, objection to some additional power particularly when so many people in being granted, but the blank power of the community drive motor cars. I arrest as for a felony is .going too far. repeat that that is going too far. I do It will enable a constable to go into the not know whether members are familiar home of the offending person and then with the instructions in the Police and there make an arrest. Manual, but under their own internal It is unnecessary to point out to you, orders members of the Police Force Mr. President, that the power of arrest are warned against arrest when pro­ must be carefully watched. Arrest is ceeding by summons is as effective. If a restraint, a deprivation of liberty, and we give this power of arrest, a constable the common law has been very zealous will merely come along and say, " I in ensuring that this power is exercised arrest you." Arrest by summons and only when warranted. What I propose so on are methods by which a person is that a constable be given the power may be brought before a court of arrest where he sees the offender on to be dealt with under the processes a public highway. If he wants to arrest of the law. If there is an equally a person who has gone to his home, effective method of bringing a person the constable should follow the time­ before the court, it should be adopted honoured channel of obtaining a rather than the arbitrary method of warrant from a justice of the peace. arrest, which is a punishment in itself. To obtain a warrant the constable goes Generally speaking, the members of before a justice quite informally, and our party will not oppose the measure. alleges certain grounds for the issue We accept it with some reservations. of a warrant. To that extent, there We think, on the balance, probably the is protection against capr1c1ous or proposals are all right; therefore we are arbitrary arrest. I am sure you will prepared to give them a trial. However, agree, Mr. President, that the arresting we contend that it is not necessary to of a man is a power which must be empower a policeman to enter a man's watched carefully. No one likes to be home at any hour of the day or night taken to a police station and locked up. and to place that man under arrest If a man is in his home, there is not without stating reasons. the necessity to arrest him there. His abode is known, and, if immediate arrest The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern is necessary, a warrant can be obtained. Province).-The Bill makes a number With '' driving under the influence " of amendments to the Crimes Act of offences, it is easy to ascertain the 1957, and not all of them are connected address of the offender as the motor with reckless or drunken driving. In vehicle is identifiable. With criminals the case of reckless driving, the Bill will who move around and have no perma­ enable a constable to arrest a driver for nent place of abode, the question of an offence even if the offence was not arrest is somewhat different, because if committed within the view of the police­ such a man is not caught at the time man. The present law provides that the he may get away. offence has to be committed within the I ask the House to consider the view of the arresting constable. The question of arrest. I do not think it Bill proposes that an arrest may in is necessary in the interests of justice future be made on reasonable grounds to go as far as the Government proposes based on the personal observation of .in the Bill. No one wants an offender the arresting officer, and it may well be to get away, but I believe the due on his observation after an offence has processes of law should be observed in been -committed. .all these matters. At the appropriate· As Mr. Galbally has pointed out, the :stage, I hope the Minister will consult Bill enlarges the .power of arrest for with his advisors to ascertain if a com­ drunken driving to that given to a promise cannot be adopted. It is wrong member of the Police Force in relation to give a constable power to go into to felonies. That is a wide power. If a home arbitrarily and, without a •a constable arrests a man on th~ 3508 Crimes [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. reasonable belief that a felony has been The provision whereby certificates committed, and it is subsequently furnished by medical practitioners and found that no felony has been com­ analysts shall be accepted as prima facie mitted, or that a felony has been evidence of an alcohol content in the committed but that the person arrested blood is sound. We are familiar with has not committed it, no obligation or it in connexion with prosecutions and liability rests upon the arresting officer, proceedings under the Health Act. For provided that he has acted on reasonable many years, there has been a provision grounds. in the Health Act that an analyst's certificate shall be accepted as prima Members of our party appreciate facie evidence of the .impurity of food that the arbitrary power of arrest or other substance. The Bill contains is a wide one to give an arresting adequate protective provisions for an officer but we :do not propose to oppose accused person. If he requires the it. In practice, it will work out little doctor or the analyst concerned to differently from the present law. Mr. attend the trial for examination, by Galbally has suggested that the appro­ giving notice, that can be arranged. priate action is for the arresting officer The principal part of the Bill con­ to obtain a warrant. If any police cerns an alteration in the definition of officer went to an ordinary justice of alcohol content in the blood. Previously, the peace holding office in Victoria, and the formula adopted was the weight of said to him, " I want to arrest a drunken the alcohol to the weight of the blood, driver; he has gone to a certain place and the danger percentage was .05 per or I believe he is in such and such a cent. Below that line a person was locality, and I want a warrant for his deemed to be innocent, and above it he arrest," ,almost invariably, I believe, the was under suspicion. The Bill changes justice would issue a warrant. In the formula from a weight to weight practice, as I have said, it would work basis to that of grams per 100 millilitres out much the same as the proposal in of blood. At first sight, I thought it the Bill. There would be only the somewhat extraordinary that the for­ additional delay of applying to a justice mula would remain the same when con­ of the peace for a warrant. verted from weight to weight to grams per 100 millilitres of blood, but the Clause 3 deals with informations in mystery resolved itself when I realized the Supreme Court and also to any plea that in the metric system there is a replication, which is an unusual term. direct relationship between weight and An examination of the clause shows capacity. A gram is the weight of that it is proposed to transfer a 1 cubic centimetre of water. The new particular section of the principal Act formula will achieve the same as the toa different place to give rule-making previous formula except that blood and power to the Supreme Court. It could not water is being dealt with. Because be termed a draftsman's device. A of the difference between the specific plea replication is something of which gravity of blood and that of water, the we seldom hear to-day. We are. danger percentage now becomes .047. In other words, the danger mark for accustomed to the ordinary plea of not the blood alcohol test will be lowered as guilty. However, there is known to the a result of this proposal. law special pleas such as the plea of My own view of the efficacy of blood aut:refois convict and autrefois acquit, tests is that the system is unsatis­ which mean that, apart from whether factory. It has little regard for the pers·on concerned committed a individual or personal tolerance to crime, he has previously been tried and alcohol and it disregards the psycho­ either convicted or acquitted of the logical effects of alcohol on any charge. They are special pleas and, if particular person. To illustrate my the Crown wishes to reply to them, point, I propose to refer to a specific it replies by what is known as a plea instance. In my· own experience, within replication. the last fortnight, a man was charged The Hon. P. V. Feltham. Crimes [5 DECEMBER} 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3509 with driving under the influence of loss or damage suffered, any amount not alcohol. The man was submitted to exceeding the value of the property the ordinary tests that were conducted that was lost. Apart from the provision by the police prior to the taking of a relating to blood tests, to which I blood test and he performed them to referred, members o~ the Country party perfection. For example, he walked a support the Bill. straight line, he did balancing acts, and The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash he touched his nose. In other words, Province) .-During the Committee he demonstrated all the control that a stage, many of the provisions of this normal person should have. However, Bill can be dealt with in detail but, for he made the mistake of submitting to a the time being, I propose to follow Mr. b1ood test, as a result of which this Feltham's example and to make some perfectly normal person by ordinary general observations. I agree with Mr. tests was found to have over .2 per cent. Feltham that the blood count is not a alcohol in his blood, which is four times satisfactory means of determining the danger mark prescribed in this Bill. whether or not a person is under Surely, that proves that there is a great the influence of alcohol. The blood deal of danger in applying the blood test count must vary according to to individual persons, because the the individuals concerned, and there reactions of persons and their ability is considerable difference of opinion to handle and control themselves when among experts on the subject. Un­ they have a high alcohol content vary less the system is foolproof or non­ as between individuals. I venture to debatable, it should not be adopted. In suggest that, in the not far distant the past, it has always been the practice future, the system of blood tests will be that a Rerson is presumed to be innocent deleted from the legislation because it until it ·has been proved to the contrary. will not prove of value. It has been One person may be able to absorb more greatly criticized by many eminent alcohol than another. Without posing people including Professor Wright as an expert, it .is obvious that persons who is the Professor of Physio­ engaged in manual work can absorb logy at the University of Mel­ alcohol, without detriment to them­ bourne. There is a great dif­ selves, far more quickly than can those ference of opinion on the question. who are engaged in brain occupations. It woul~ be dangerous to allow a person's liberty, and the question of his The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.-Is that ability to drive a motor car, with a conjecture or can you prove it? consequent possible effect on his liveli­ The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-! can hood, to depend upon a test which is prove it in my own case; to others, it suspect. may be purely conjectural. The Clause 7 deals with persons who absorptive powers of a person depend commit offences involving the taking of upon his mental disposition at the time property. At present, the provisions of of consuming the alcohol. We should the law relating to compensation differ not forget that alcohol is a vegetable in such cases, depending upon which substance that is capable of absorption court deals with them-whether it is in the human body without leaving a the Court of Petty Sessions, the Court trace of its passage except in the case of General Sessions or the Supreme of a constant and persistently heavy Court. Some of the Acts merely refer drinker, whose organs, according to to restitution. The courts have held biological evidence, are ultimately that if a person can return intact what seriously affected and contracted by the has been taken, compensation cannot be· malignant use of alcohol. paid. Clause 7 will place all courts, The Bill will enable police officials to whether dealing with felonies, misde­ take the same action in connexion with meanours, or summary offences, on the the types of offence dealt with in this same basis. In future, it will be possible measure as are now taken in regard to to award the aggrieved person by way of suspected felonies. I pay a warm satisfaction and as compensation for the tribute to the general efficiency and 3510 Ori1nes [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. morale of the Victoria Police Force. persons responsible for enforcing its Unfortunately, from time to time in provisions. It is of the utmost im­ the news columns of the press, ope reads portance that when Parliament sees of a member of the Force who has fallen fit to pass legislation which invades the from that high standard. It may be liberty of the subject the powers that while himself under the· influence granted should not be used wrongfully. of alcohol, he has proceeded to take Under clause 4, certificates from police action against another :person. medical practitioners may be used as If action of this type is serious in the case of ordinary misdemeanours, it evidence in courts. A safeguard is provided in that the person who has could be particularly serious in the case been examiried must be given copies of a constable attempting to proceed of the certificate and can demand the against the driver of a motor car. The presence in court of the doctor con­ power of arrest is an ignominious punishment against an offender and, no cerned for cross-examination if so desired. Although the proposal is a matter how innocent a suspected somewhat serious departure from the offender may ultimately be proved to be, ordinary law, the safeguard provided there is still the slur cast upon him should make it acceptable to the com­ that he was taken into custody. munity. In the circumstances, I regard Consequently, this power should be used most sparingly. Hitherto, its use has it as a reasonable innovation. been possessed by a constable who had By clause 7, courts are to be granted reasonable grounds for fearing a breach power to enforce any compensation of the •peace or an escape of an offender orders made, in the same way as judg­ or malefactor. On the other hand, it ments of courts in civil action are is reasonable to say that the apprehen­ enforced. I believe that also is a sion of a person who commits an offence desirable change. I do not think there with the aid of a motor car may be is much else in the Bill that calls for difficult. comment. I agree with Mr. Feltham Frequently it is reported in the press that we might very well find in the that robbers have escaped in stolen not far distant future that blood tests high-powered motor cars. Similarly, may be superseded by a more satis­ otherwise law-abiding members of the factory method of ascertaining drunken­ community take charge of high­ ness. Although I agree with the powered motor cars when the amount proposals contained in clause 8 con­ of alcoholic liquor they have consumed cerning recognisance bonds, again renders them incapable of driving. vigilance will have to be exercised to They then menace the safety and often ensure that the action of Parliament the lives of others using the roads, is not abused. whether as pedestrians or drivers of The Hon. C.H. BRIDGFORD (South­ vehicles. I was present when a friend Eastern Province).-! wish to confine of mine was being tested for his driving my remarks to the blood test provisions licence, and he did not like the fact in this Bill. I share misgivings already that the policeman told him that strict expressed by representatives of the and severe tests were necessary, as other parties, and, at the appropriate motor cars could be lethal weapons time, I shall move amendments cover­ when improperly handled. My friend ing two items. I should like to say submitted to the test with more or less that I have no sympathy at all for grudging grace and ultimately obtained drunken drivers. In the course of com­ his licence. I appreciated the attitude mittee investigations I have made, I of the policeman. have accompanied police in their cars It is difficult to find reasons to vote and I have seen drivers who, I con­ against a Bill of this nature, which is sidered, were not capable of driving aimed at tightening the law. However, cars, but against whom the police con­ I believe that it should be administered sidered they could bring no successful with utmost care to ensure that high prosecution. Although I have sym­ standards are maintained by those pathy for the police in their troubles The Hon. T. W. Brennan. Crimes [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3511 in this matter, I believe there are There are many weighty reasons for other issues involved in the question considering that there is something sus­ of the proof of drunkenness which are pect in the matter of blood tests. Profes­ perhaps even more important. The sor Wright, the Professor of Physiology first is that the innocent should not at the Melbourne university, is extremely suffer. While we do not want a forthright in his views. In a letter to drunken man to escape penalty, no the Age of 25th November he stated, one wishes to see an innocent man inter alia- involved in a very serious penalty­ From the pharmacological viewpoint, the automatic loss of his driving there is not an accurate relationship be­ licence. There are three old prin­ tween blood alcohol and impairment of driving ability. People differ in their ciples of law that have taken capacity to withstand the effect of a given centuries to develop-oral evidence and concentration of alcohol. cross-examination and no violence to This is perhaps not entirely relevant, but the person. The Bill to some extent he states-- compromises these principles. It might Removal of blood from a vein is usually, be desirable to take a short cut with but not always, without risk. If after com­ the law at times, but we should be most pulsory removal of blood, the accused con­ careful with any measure that seeks tracted and even died of infectious hepatitis to interfere with principles of justice what would be the position of his depen­ dants in an action against the Crown? which have taken centuries to evolve. I have also a report of the views of Sir There has been much inspired pub­ Stanton Hicks, Professor of Physiology licity in a campaign by various interests and Pharmocology at the Adelaide to try to establish blood tests as the university, who is even more .forthright. final means of attempting to prove He states- whether a man is drunk or not. I think Blood tests to determine if a man is drunk the campaign has to some extent been -the fantasy of it. It beats everything I've ever heard of. It was incorrect to say that misleading, perhaps deliberately so. the percentage of alcohol in the blood was For instance, I have heard it said that a measure of the degree of intoxication the use of this method of proof is being because of the statistical variations in extended all over the world. I have response of the population to the same many reasons to believe that the state­ quantity of imbibed alcohol. ment is not true. In fact, it is becom­ I believe it is unfortunate that the police ing more and more suspect throughout have so freely lent themselves to the the world rather than more used. In this· publicity which has surrounded the pre­ Bill, apparently, we are seeking to sentation of this legislation. The police alter the formula that has been used surgeon in particular has expressed in the past, so presumably there must himself at great length on the matter. have been something wrong with it. He is forthright and his ppinion is We are being invited to exchange the influenced, if not prejudiced, by what he old principle of viva voce evidence and sees and the difficulties he faces in ob­ cross-examination for the anonymous taining convictions. He has said that he opinion of some technician who has favours an automatic penalty-some­ written a text book at some time or thing on which British legislators have other. There seems to be more and always frowned. He states also that he more belief abroad that the system is favours compulsory testing, which we by no means as foolp~oof as it has been do not. When asked whether he thought made to appear. All of us are aware of he had been guilty of a technical the psychological factors involved. Two assault on persons in taking blood tests, men may consume exactly the same he said- quantity of alcohol, yet one will drive In nearly all the cases I have examined I feel I have been guilty of assault. I his car home at 20 miles an hour and don't think any one of them has been the other will start his car with such capable of giving valid consent. speed that there will be a great smell There have been several other statements of burning rubber and a shower of small on this question which I could quote, stones. and I hope I shall not offend Mr. Galbally 3512 Crimes fCOUNCIJ..1 .(Amendment) Bill. by reading too many of them. There is can be proved. The statement contains another report by the same ,person three extraordinary iproposiUons, the which says that voluntary blood tests first of which is that no police force are 'not fair, and yet another in the in the world favours anything but an Age of 17th September under ·the head­ absolute limit. That is not really rele­ ing of "Forced Blood Testing Urged as vant to what the legislation should be, Only Counter to Road Toll." I think but the Police Force is looking at the there must be some misgiving when matter fmm one special point of view. such suggestions emanate from the The second statement is that the Force Police Force, which must be ·prejudiced does not consider that the 50 mile an because its members see ·only one side hour prima facie limit contributes any­ of the question. I think it is a good thing towards safety ·on the roads. I thing for the police to •try to ·enforce ask honorable members: What is wrong the law and not to make it. Even with ·the 50 mile an hour limit? further publicity was given when the The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-Are not ipolice suggested what the law should the members of the Police Force the be. In another publication, it was re­ most expert :people in traffic problems ported that the Chief Commissioner of because they are dealing day by day Police favoured ithe setting up of a with the people who are killed and special court to hear drunken driving injured? cases. Here there is strong publicity by the police concerning what the law The Hon. C. H. BRIDGFORD.-If should be and what type of court the Mr. Slater wants to ·advocate that the cases should be heard in. With all due Police Force should make laws, he respect to the members of the Police should say so. I am making the ·point Force, I think it would 1be better for that it should not. In regard to the ithem to leave the making of laws to the 50 mile an hour limit, regulation 192A legislature. under the Motor Car Acts provides- Subject to the provisions of the next The standing of the Police Force in succeeding clause, no 1person shall drive a this community is as high as it has motor car upon a highway at a speed ever been. There may be a feeling that exceeding 50 miles an hour. the rights of the citizens are adequately A driver shall not be guilty of a breach protected because of this high reput·a­ of this clause if he proves to the satisfac­ tion, and members of the Force should tion of a -court that the speed at which he drove the motor car was not dangerous therefore be given the right to have having regard to all the drcumstances. some automatic means of conviction and penalty because one could rely on Here is what I would regard as ,a the discrimination and good sense of :perfect law, which provides that a its members to use its .powers only person is guilty unless he can prove when they should be used. How­ that he was not driving in a dangerous ever, that is a dangerous assump­ manner, but the :police say that such a tion to make in regard to a serious provision is useless. offence. I believe that there is no room The third statement made by the for such confidence. Indeed, when the Chief Commissioner was that charges Police Force has been given the power based on reckless or dangerous driving to obtain easy convictions and almost are difficult to prove, and speed limits automatic penalties, the opportunity is which depend on ·proof -of this merely normally availed of. favour people who are able to afford A statement by the Chief Commis­ costly legal assistance. That is another sioner of Police referring to another way of saying that if everybody cannot matter is relevant to my remarks. The afford legal assistance, no one should subject is the campaign by motor have H. It is a principle of law that organizations to 1:he effect that the a person is entitled to the best defence 30 mile an hour absolute limit is not available. The third extr.aordinary right and that there should be the statement of the Chief Commissioner necessity to establish that some element becomes relevant when one studies the of danger is involved before an offence statistics relating to offences for exceed- The Hon. C. H. Bridgford. Crimes (5 DECEMBER, 1957.J (.Amendment) Bill. 3513 ing the 30 mile an hour limit. It is cerned must have been drunk. My easy to obtain a cheap and quick amendment will be aimed at preventing prosecution in those cases. In August such a possibility. of .this year, there were 1,560 convic­ The Bill as drafted provides that a tions for exceeding the speed limit, 49 blood sample could be tendered as for dangerous driving, 16 for care­ evidence, no matter how it was obtained less driving, and none for reckless or whether consent was or was not driving. Those figures relate to a given. The police now have power to month when special week-end blitzes arrest, and they can take a suspected were in force, and presumably all the driver to a police station and by one resources of the Police Force were means or another procure a sample of marshalled against driving at speeds blood and tender it as evidence. It may exceeding 30 miles an hour. During be that the accused person has a cross a week-end road blitz in November, 465 action for assault or damages against drivers were booked for exceeding 30 the police on the ground that the miles an hour and 57 for dangerous, sample was improperly taken. I pro­ negligent or reckless driving. Those pose to move an amendment which will figures indicate that the Police Force make evidence of blood testing inad­ has booked motorists for the charge missible unless it is established that that is easiest to prove. consent was voluntarily obtained. In Care must be exercised regarding the other words, I think there are possi­ offence of drunken driving to ensure bilities that the voluntary system, to that adequate proof is obtained. For which the Government is committed, that reason this Bill must be carefully may in effect be not so voluntary. There examined. In his second-reading speech, are two dangers: One is compulsion by the Minister of Forests stated, inter inference, and the other is that there alia- is compulsion in that the sample could It is the Government's intention not .to be obtained whether the accused con­ be stampeded into the introduction of a sents or not. In such a case, he has no compulsory blood test, which necessarily redress except one that is more apparent carries with it the implication that the test itself shall be conclusive evidence of than real. I do not like the 1principle the drunkenness or otherwise of the of blood testing, but I am prepared to person accused. Likewise, the Government accept it only because it makes does not intend to break down the proper machinery possible for something that safeguards that have been designed over the centuries for the protection of every has already been agreed to. I shall person accused of a crime. Its object in move my amendments with the intention this legislation is to make the voluntary of ensuring that that principle is not blood test work properly. other than voluntary. The purpose of the amendment which The motion was agreed to. I propose to move during the Committee stage is to ensure that the voluntary The Bill was read a second time and system of blood testing is maintained committed. and that we do not get compulsion by The sitting was suspended at 12.57 inference. There is a grave risk of that. p.m. until 2.5 p.m. One of the spokesmen of the campaign against drunken driving apparently Cl1ause 1 was agreed to. regards that as proper, because he is Clause 2 (Reckless driving and driving reported to have said that the refusal under the influence). to have a blood test would be admissible evidence. I have been informed that The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister that is not the case, but I have been of Forests).-In the course of his just as reliably informed that in many second-reading speech, Mr. Feltham re­ instances the fact would be mentioned. ferred to a matter that the Government It may subsequently be referred to in a wishes to consider. To permit of that newspaper article, and that in itself consideration, as well as of ·other points could be a punishment. The inference requiring to be examined, I suggest could be drawn that the person con- thiat progress be reported. 3514 Tourist [COUNCIL.] Bill.

The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ to appoint advisory committees in vari­ bourne North Province).-We have no ous areas of this State to assist the objection to the course proposed. I was authority. I could enlarge much fur­ most impressed by the views expressed ther upon the Bill but I think that would by Mr. Bridgford. His true Liberal atti­ be unnecessary. It is well known that tude and his thoughtful speech were in all parties have carefully considered it refreshing contrast to most of the ex· and are in favour of its passage. pressions of Ministers in this House. I The Hon. J. J. JONES (Ballarat commend him, and I feel safe in saying Province).-The members of the party that the real reason why the Govern­ for which I speak give their support to ment desires that progress should be this Bill. I was interested in the re­ reported is to be found in the serious marks of the Minister of Forests doubts cast in the minds of some mem­ that it is an all-party Bill. I give bers of the Government by the contri­ the Government credit, in bringing bution of Mr. Bridgford. forward legislation of this kind, for Progress was reported. having taken notice of the views ex­ pressed by other than Government TOURIST BILL. members. I thought the Minister of The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister Forests might have gone into more of Forests).-! move- detail in explanation of the Bill. Clause 3, which is vital, sets up a tourist That this Bill be now read a second time. development authority to consist of As its title indicates, this is a measure nine members, representing the Public to encourage and attract tourists to Vic­ Works Department, the Lands Depart­ toria. Upon the subject generally, I ment and the F·orests Commission, to­ could make quite a long speech, em­ gether with the chairm~n of the Coun­ phasizing especiaHy

The authority would then be in a posi­ of beach resorts will not attract one tion to guarantee to persons in various European or one American to Victoria. areas that if certain developments were The specific identities of cities such as carried out a certain amount of money Rome, Paris and London attract would be available to them for specified tourists from overseas to those cities. terms. The people of Paris are not attracted to Paris because they live there; they When I became a member of the wish to see other places of interest. committee of management of Mount Buffalo National Park the only accom­ In view of the tremendous difficulties modation at the Dingo Dell ski run was which face Australia .geographically, some old railway huts which had been this country has to develop the natural transported aU over Victoria before attractions. Tourists will not cross the arriving at Mount Buffalo. When the world to visit Mount Buffalo or the National Parks Committee was initiated Snowy mountains, passing the Swiss last year, the various national park alps on the way, because the Swiss committees were asked to submit plans alps have everything that can be offered to cover the next few years. If the here, although not on such a grand Government is going to provide only scale.· The Swiss alps are within easy £50,000, very little work will .be done reach of 100,000,000 people. We should in national parks over the next ten years. develop in this country specific attrac­ A guarantee should be .given that more tions-such as the coral reefs and money will be available in the future. islands off the Queensland coast-which The Government should he prepared to have no counterpart anywhere else in guarantee finance on a major basis so the world. The American author and that committees in various areas will fisherman, Zane Grey, did more to be enabled to provide tourist facilities in popularize Queensland as a tourist resort this State which wiH be a credit to the when he came here big game fishing State in the future. than any action taken by the Queens­ land or Commonwealth Government. He The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne discovered facilities which are not North Province).-This House has had available elsewhere. If world tourism no opportunity until now of examining is to be attracted to Victoria, we must this legislation, which is alleged to have offer something more attractive than been much mutilated since its introduc­ the Grampians, which would merely tion in another place. Unfortunately, attract people from Melbourne who wish all-party decisions usually ignore minori- · to enjoy a quiet holiday. Certainly ties, which I have been led to believe the Grampians offer beautiful scenery, are important in democratic institutions. but that type of attraction can be My party does not oppose this measure. viewed in most countries of the I wonder whether the all-party com­ world. Tourists may visit Australia mittee knew what it was attempting to to see kangaroos in their wild state. do when it set out to introduce legisla­ The Sherbrooke Forest with its lyrebirds tion to improve the tourist prospects would probably attract overseas of this State in an international sense. tourists. Country such as is found Mr. Swinburne has dealt mainly with in the Northern Territory ·of Aus­ the idea of providing adequate holiday tralia has attracted tourists from facilities for our own community. overseas because in no other country Attracting world tourists to the State can be seen the physical attractions of Victoria is an entirely different found there. I have heard reports that matter. If this Bill merely achieves in this measure there was iprovision the object Mr. Swinburne envisages, I made for a representative of the Fish­ imagine it will fail in the objective to eries and Game Department to be a attract tourists. However, the Bill goes member of the authority, but appar­ further than Mr. Swinburne has said. ently that provision has been deleted. I wondered when he would suggest some In the development of our natural method of attracting tourists who do resources to attract overseas tourists, not reside in Victoria. The development this officer could have been a most Tourist [5 DECEMBER, 1957.) Bill. 3519 valuable member of the authority. He land? They should be attracted to the could have supplied information as to north of Australia instead of being when schnapper were running in Port brought down south, where the weather Phillip Bay. That sport would be an is such a gamble. attraction for overseas tourists if it was advertised properly. The Bill should have been framed to cover such matters as I have mentioned. Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-They might The key to world tourism really is give. me a ring on that subject. attractions that are different. There The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-! suggest must be something unique, a feature that the Minister of Transport should not found in the homeland of the keep in touch with the experts of the tourist. If advertising were under­ Fisheries and Game Department. That taken on a world scale, we might is an example of how we could develop induce overseas people to come here. a natural attraction, but, unfortunately, We could show visitors our kangaroos the approach has been too parochial. and emus. They would interest such That attitude was adopted by Mr. tourists because our fauna are not Swinburne, who discussed the develop­ found in any other country. Visitors ment of our own holiday resorts to might be induced to come here in the cater mainly f<;>r local people going to same way as they now go to Africa, those places on their annual holidays. where lions sit on the bonnets of motor I support the objective, but I do not cars and elephants trumpet all over think it will attract world tourists. If the place. Attractions of that nature people overseas want a holiday at bring. tourists to a country. We are beaches where they can sunbake, I am trying to sell the old wares which are sure that Americans will visit Hawaii more easily accessible in other parts and other resorts closer to America of the world. We want to advertise than we are, and at which, undoubtedly, attractions of Melbourne. When the better facilities are available. hotels close at 6 p.m., can we expect to compete with the street-side cafes I agree with Mr. J. J. Jones that it of Rome, Paris and other European is of no use our saying " We think our cities? State is the best State. Our beaches are cleaner than the Queensland One of the great attractions of New beaches." The fact is that the tem­ Zealand, apart from its unique scenery peratures at our beaches do not tend and the volcanic nature of the to make them attractive, whereas on Dominion, is the salmon fishing. Fish the Queensland beaches the tempera­ of that species abound there in greater tures are constantly high. In Victoria, numbers than anywhere else in the people may go for a swim at nine world. o'clock in the morning but they have I thought the purpose of the Bill to wear overcoats when coming home would be to set up a committee that in the afternoon. We have some great would attend to the matters I have assets but there are many difficulties mentioned, and that its function would to be overcome before world tourists not be to duplicate many of our present will be attracted. I should not like holiday resorts. That may be desirable to induce overseas people to take but it will not attract world tourists. a holiday at a Victorian beach resort, When our own people go on holiday, because they may experience bitterly­ they are often referred to as " tourists " cold weather in the summer time. but it would be wiser to cal1 them Workers who holiday on Mornington " holiday makers." In catering for Peninsula and pay 25 guineas a week such people, we are not taking steps for· a small flat sometimes find that to induce world tourists to visit here. because of the weather they cannot have I would have been happy if the Bill even one swim during their holiday. If had set out to achieve some of the that happened with overseas tourists objectives I have suggested, and not what would they say about sunny Aus­ those referred to by Mr. J. J. Jones and tralia when they returned to their own Mr. Swinburne: 3520 Tourist [COUNCIL.] Bill.

This is said to be an all-party I am pleased that Mr. Slater is present measure, but possibly our ideas are not because he will be able to support the in agreement with those of members of remarks I am about to make. Last other parties. We should have been year, when I was in Oslo, people said, consulted before the Bill reached its " You wiH go on to Helsinki. You will present emasculated state. A man who be sure to see Finland, and what about knows and understands the game and having a peep at Russia? " I had my sporting facilities of this State has been own good reasons for not wishing to exduded from the authority. I would visit Russia. Some members might wel­ have fought desperately to retain his come such a trip, but I prefer to know services, because I am certain that he that I can use a return ticket home. could do more to assist to attract world When I was in Paris, I was interested tourists to this State than could public to hear an American tourist say, servants who may be experts in the "To-night I am flying to New York and Public Works Department. Certainly, I will be there to-morrow morning." there should be a representative from Other people in New York would be fly­ the Forests Commission, as that ing to Buenos Aires or Rio de Janeiro. authority has a relationship to the The Hon. C. S. GAWITH.-Or to Hall's principles of the Bill. The authority Gap. would have been more valuable if its The Hon. T. W. BRtENNAN.-I am representation had been broadened. pleased that Mr. Gawith has penetrated Apparently it was broader at one stage, into the centre of Victoria and knows but after ari alleged all-party conference that such a place exists. World tourism it seems to have been narrowed doWri to depends on a relentless curiosity. There such a degree that it will now look after are cities that have been lost in the local holiday resorts and will not carry jungle. There are the ruins of the forum out the functions which I understood in Rome or the pillars of the Parthenon were intended by the Government in in­ of Greece. People like to be able to troducing the measure. A Government eat ice-cream while viewing these that has not the courage to fight for antiquities; they expect to be able to its ideas but will allow them to be sub­ enjoy all modern amenities. They even merged in parochialism, such as we have like being photographed in the Garden heard to-day, abrogates its right to of Gethsemane, although that appealed govern. to me as a sacred place, not a holiday The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash resort. Province).-! wish to echo the remarks It is of no use being wrapped in our of my Leader, particularly in regard to own little things if we desire to get the parochial approach that has been into world-class with tourism. If one made to the question of throwing Vic­ is not prepared to travel, one should toria open to the world. There used listen to those who have done so. When to be an excellent slogan, "See Aus­ I was on my trip abroad I saw Ameri­ tralia, but first start with Victoria." I cans, Frenchmen, and people from Great have always Jubscribed to that view and Britain pouring thousands of pounds I put it to Mr. Swinburne that instead into the coffers of hotels in Scandinavia, of developing holiday resorts for the Italy, and GTeece. Tourists overseas benefit of our own population we should, visit every place to which they can go as Mr. Little said, devote our efforts to with safety, but not solely to admire bringing the State into world class so the archaeological splendours of the past. far as tourism is concerned. Once one In Spain, I found that one is offered an has been abroad one realizes what a English breakfast, and that a tourist wonderful country we have and what has not to live on the Spanish diet. The great natural attributes have been given hotels make available what is under­ us by Almighty God. What we must stood to be the food enjoyed by the develop overseas is an insatiable English, the Irish, or the Scotch. curiosity in people to visit Australia, The Hon. J. J. JoNEs.-What about to induce them to travel 10,000 miles the people who cannot afford to take to come here. trips abroad? Tourist [5 DECEMBER, 1957.J Bill. 3521

The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-In world. I hope that this Bill will speedily America, an excellent plan has been be amended to ensure that all worth­ evolved under which one may pay for while interests in the community are holidays as one travels. People in the represented on the proposed tourist de­ ordinary class save far their holidays. velopment authority. I had to save for my trip-I could not The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON (South­ wait until the Government sent me. I Western Province) .-When this House met :people who were pleased to be debated the National Parks Bill, I in­ abroad because they felt that they had dicated that, in my view, the measure got somewhere. They asked me ques­ should have been designed to develop our tions about Australia. I referred to the national parks and tourist resorts. Had emus and the kangaroos and other this advice been adopted, to-day there fauna. I assure the House that many would have been one single authority re­ Americans can afford to come here, and sponsible for the supervision of national Americans pay their way. I received a parks and their development. Previous refund from New York of two do'llars, speakers have referred to the need for the value of about 12s., that I had been attracting world tourists to this country. overcharged by an hotel. That is a Members could safely place almost any tribute I pay to the honesty of Ameri­ interpretation on this meaningless cans. In my experience, they pay their measure and still be correct. Nothing way and are not the worst behaved in the Bill suggests, nor has the Minister tourists. so averred, that it is designed to develop There is more in the problem of world tourist attractions for the benefit of in­ tourism than the aspect of merely at­ ternational visitors. It is not clear tracting people to look at our resorts and whether the intention of the legislature then depart. There is the question is to provide tourist facilities for over­ of the moving of the population of the seas visitors. In my view that is the world. Unless we can attract the right responsibility of the Commonwealth type of people to this country we will Government. The powers, resources and not hold it for long. When in facilities of the State are inadequate Spain, many persons asked me about successfully to develop our resorts for the living conditions here. I did not that purpose. give them any exaggerated idea; I said Although an agreement has been that there was work available for people reached concerning the composition of who were prepared to work. the proposed tourist development The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN.-Some authority, I cannot imagine why the Minister of Transport, or his nominee, good types of people have been attracted should have been overlooked. I agree here. that the Victorian Government Tourist The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-That is Bureau should be represented, but surely so; I should not be here if that were not the Minister of Transport, who is in the case. I do not intend to cast re­ charge of our State transport network, flections upon any of the persons who would be an invaluable aid to the have migrated to this country. Many authority. That is just another indica­ of them, including Mr. Gawith and Mr. tion that it will not achieve a great deal Machin, are just as much Australians of success. Clause 5, which sets out the as if they had been born here. However, functions of the authority, is very we want more migrants of this type. It vague. It is difficult to envisage how its has been said, " When you are on a good work will assist in developing our thing, stick to it," but I contend that not tourist resorts. The second-reading only should you "stick to it" but also notes circulated by the Minister referred you should endeavour to develop and to the provision of £250,000 for fore­ exploit it. That is true of the tourist shore improvement works. However, to industry. Notwithstanding the criticism any honorable member who is familiar of this measure by my Leader, at least with the state of our foreshores, this it indicates that the Government realizes amount of finance will be totally the need to throw open our portals to the inadequate for the task-it represents 3522 Tourist [COUNCIL.] Bill. a mere bagatelle. Foreshore erosion The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON .-I did entails a great deal of expense and, as not say that. our beaches become more popular and The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-The hon­ greater crowds are attracted to them, orable member said that he did not the problem of erosion will be intensi­ know what this Bill was supposed to do. fied. Vast sums of money have been spent at Apollo Bay on providing shelter The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON.-! sug­ for the fishing fleet, but any honorable gest that instead of misinterpreting my member who has seen the disastrous remarks, Mr. Little should speak for results of that work would realize the himself. tremendous amount of money that The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-Mr. J. J. would be needed for the development Jones said that the Labour party had of the foreshores of this State. decided that this was a good Bill. If that is so, and if the Minister of Forests The Government should have pre­ knows why it was decided that Mr. sented a Bill that would convey more Butcher should not be represented on precisely exactly what was proposed. the authority, all members of this Is this Bill being introduced in the Committee should be given that infor­ dying hours of the sessional period as mation. There must have been a reason a mere political stunt, or is it really for the Government's acting in that intended as a measure to follow up the manner. " Sell Victoria Campaign " conducted by the Victoria Promotion Committee? The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister Is it intended that we, in Victoria, of Forests).-! have .presented this Bill shall proclaim to the world that our on behalf of the Government as I re­ tourist facilities will be improved to ceived it from another place. bring them up to international standard? The clause was agreed to, as were Is it intended. to .provide tourist clauses 4 to 6. facilities for people from other States, Clause 7 (Power to Minister to or is the measure designed simply to authorize loans or grants from the extend the facilities already existing for fund). summer holiday makers? Thios Bill is The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North­ typical of the type of legislation that Eastern Province).-When I spoke in has been presented by this Government. the second-reading debate, I thought I It appears to be designed more with a made it quite clear that I considered view to capturing the imagination of there were two aspects in the develop­ the public rather than giving effect to ment of tourism. Mr. Little has what is actually required so far as our endeavoured to portray· that I spoke tourist facilities are concerned. only in relation to what he termed the The motion was agreed to. parochial side. I ihave not had the opportunity as yet to travel overseas, The Bill was 'read a 1second time and so I refrained from dealing with the committed. aspect of attracting overseas tourists Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. as I did not wish to discuss anything Clause 3 (Tourist development I knew little about. Whether visitors authority). to the State are termed holiday-makers The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (rise. Fisheries and Game Department, is not Through this measure, the Government to be represented on the authority? will provide the facilities required. Mr. Ferguson did not enlighten us on So far as the attraction of overseas that question during his second-reading tourists is concerned, any steps taken to speech; he said that his party did not provide tourist agencies in New York, know what the Bill was all about. London or other places must be on an Tourist (5 DECEMBER, 1957.J Bill. 3523

Australian and not merely Victorian natural attractions. It is not a matter basis. I reiterate that adequate develop­ of whether Mr. Swinburne is entirely ment of tourism is wrapped up in right or whether I am. My chief com­ the provision of good accommodation. plaint is that a person who is an expert Travel services must also he provided. on our native animals has been deprived One can .purchase in Melbourne tickets of appointment to the authority. As from travel agencies which will carry I said earlier, I support the Bill so one around the world. That type of far as it goes. However, it is of no activity must be developed for travel use attempting to advertise Victoria in Victoria. It is idle to deny that up as a place of marvellous beaches and to date it has not been possible to glorious summer resorts, as the weather provide sufficient accommodation, even is likely to let us down. Whatever is in .the metropolitan area. Members of done to attract tourists here must be the Country party know how difficult done on an honest basis, otherwise we it is to try to obtain hotel accommoda­ will find that tourists will be dissatisfied. tion in the city unless it is booked Many other attractions peculiar to this rponths ahead. The only way addi­ State could be exploited, in addition tional facilities and accommodation can to the animals I mentioned earlier. That be provided is by developing the local is why I believe the Bill would have tourist trade. I am sure that the been more important had experts on our majority of persons •travelling through­ native flora and fauna been placed on out the Continent reside in England the authority. The Olympic Games or neighbouring countries. Therefore, gave Melbourne wide publicity and had we should put our own house in order first and build accommodation for the important results from the tourist point local trade. I can assure ·Mr. Little of view, and the development of interest that I could find plenty of kangaroos in our natural attractions could have on my own property which would be the same result. The cry that we must of interest to tourists, but again one provide adequate accommodation in comes up against the problem of where advance for tourists is like saying that visitors are to be accommodated. If we should have jobs and houses ready we develop facilities for local people, before any migrants are brought into we will eventually he able to attract the country. overseas visitors. The clause was agreed to. Thie H-00. ,J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne Clause 8, providing, inter alia- North Province).-! do not wish to make another second-reading speech, (3) For the purposes of the last but I should like to point out to Mr. preceding sub-section the "net total amount" credited to the Country Roads Swinburne that the tourist industries of Board Fund as aforesaid in respect of any India and Africa 1began with safari financial year shall be the whole amount expeditions into the jungles and so credited in respect of that financial year deserts. No hotels were .provided less- and that type of touring still attracts ( a) the amount which in respect of :people. There are many attractions in that financial year is required to this State that could be developed, but be paid into the consolidated revenue out of the Country Roads we do not need to erect palatial hotels Board Fund Act 1930; as a commencement. In Canada, the snow country is toured on a cabin to The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister cabin basis. If we wish to develop a of Forests).-! move-- beach to rival Waikiki beach in That in pnragraph

Clause 10 (Power to Minister to do not think the number to be appointed appoint certain advisory committees). to the committees should be limited. The Hon. A. J. BAILEY (Melbourne The matter should be left to the dis­ West Province).-The terms of this cretion of the Minister and the authority clause appear to be vague, and I should who will work out the best possible like to know whether the Minister of number from those available in the Forests is in a position to advise what various categories. I realize that many types of committees are to be appointed men in the community who could render and their likely personnel. valuable assistance will not have time to give service to this project. Mr. The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister Butcher may not be competent to advise of Forests).-The idea is that local on the technicalities of engineering, but committees comprising persons with special know ledge will be formed to he has a great deal of knowledge in assist -in various ways. I understand that regard to fish and animals, and that is Mr. Butcher will be invited to join one a subject on which members of the of these committees. It is the view of authority may require advice. I do not the Government that specialists such as think any member of this Chamber is Mr. Butcher will be more useful on the competent to say how many persons types of committees envisaged in this should be appointed to .these commit­ clause than on the proposed authority. tees, and I am prepared to leave the clause as it is and allow the authority The Hon. A. J. BAILEY (Melbourn~ and the Minister to work out their own West Province).-The Minister has destinies. given no indication of the number of persons likely to be appointed to these The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash committees or whether they will be Province).-! have listened with interest members of the Public Service. to the remarks of Mr. Swinburne, and Personally, I think there should be a I think they deserve a good deal of maximum number stipulated. I do not attention. Looking to futurity, there know whether this matter was discussed is no likelihood of Mr. Swinburne being at the conferences held amongst certain the Minister responsible for administer­ parties. Last year an agreement was ing this measure when it is enacted. reached regarding the Estate Agents Mr. Bailey's reasonable objections have Bill, and it was subsequently proved to not been met by the Minister of Forests be wrong. I consider that any arrange­ or by Mr. Swinburne. ments that have been entered into out­ The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Not side the Chamber should be disclosed being the Minister, I cannot answer the inside it, and I am disappointed that has objections. not been done. The Committee is The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-! agree, entitled to an assurance that the but unfortunately the Minister is silent. advisory committees will comprise a In regard to the committees to be certain number of persons. appointed, presumably the label will The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North­ indicate the contents of the tin. It is Eastern Province).-! do not think it proposed to appoint a tourist develop­ would be wise to accept the suggestion ment advisory committee and a tourist that the number of members on these publicity advisory committee. How­ committees be limited. The clause as ever, no functions have been determined drafted will permit men such as Mr. for these committees, nor have they Butcher to be appointed. Whether or been given any status. There is a not he has qualifications which will vagueness as to the persons who will assist in the development of the tourist be appointed to these committees. industry in this State, at least he is competent in a certain sphere. Many The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-The other persons are similarly qualified, tourist publicity advisory committee and they could do a great deal to assist will deal with publicity. in developing tourist resorts. For The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-Mr. instance, many men are experts on the Swinburne has fallen for what will publicity aspect. For that reason, I appear on the label. It is possible that Tourist [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Bill. 3525 the Minister of Forests, in the exercise The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North­ of his, authority, may fail to Eastern Province).-! am amazed at appoint the proper persons. It seems the prolonged discussion that this clause to me that more attention should have has provoked. If honorable members been given to administrative details. read the clause they will see that either We are embarking on something on the Minister of his own volition or the which Government money will be used, authority will make the appointments. and the Committee is entitled to know The Hon. T. BRENNAN.-The ap­ how that money will be spent. I am w. pointments will be made on the recom­ not suggesting that there will be a mendation of the authority. grandiose scheme whereby people will be paid huge salaries. I trust that the The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-Some Minister will relent, even at the eleventh of the remarks of honorable members hour, and give an indication of the as to who should comprise the autho­ functions of the committees and the rity have been interesting. However, I necessary qualifications for appointees. cannot understand the criticism by other I should like to know also how far these honorable members to the effect that committees will be competent to advise the authority will not have a wide the Minister who, presumably, at some enough scope and that no provision is later stage will present legislation to being made to give the authority the Parliament based qn what the com­ benefit of that wide range of know­ mittees have recommended. The Minis­ ledge and skill that has been refer­ ter is generally most anxious to assist, red to so eloquently. The committees but in this case he has left us on the to be appointed will act in an advisory sandy, stony slopes of Wilson's pro­ capacity, and the Minister will not have montary. his hands tied in regard to appoint­ ments. I consider that to be an excel­ The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister lent idea, and I cannot understand Mr. of Forests) .-As far as I was able, I Bailey's objections. Mr. Little has did explain that in my view power was stated many persons will be available to be given to the Minister or to the to offer advice, and surely this State authority to appoint committees. Of can use the brains and experience of course, only useful people will be such people who will be able to make a appointed. contribution to the development of The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-What is tourism. I believe it would be wrong meant by the word " useful?" to make the advisory committees too cumbersome, but the Minister should The Hon. G . .S. McARTHUR.-Those be given the opportunity to appoint persons who the Minister or the autho­ as many men as are considered neces­ rity thinks are useful. The members sary. In my opinion, an attempt is of the committees will do1 the work being made to delay the passage of this voluntarily in order to assist the autho­ Bill, which I consider to be an excellent rity, and I cannot imagine any Minister one. Therefore, I trust that the mea­ cluttering up the committees with a sure will not be further delayed. team of ignorant people. The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash The Hon. A. J. BAILEY (Melbourne · Province).-Mr. Bradbury exhorted West Province).-! am not satisfied with members to read the clause, but I sug­ the Minister's explanation. If this da·use gest that he read it himself. He said is passed, the Committee will be giving that appointments could be made by the Minister an " -open cheque " on this the Minister or by the authority. The matter. The Minister has stated tha1 clause provides that appointments will useless people will not be appointed. be made by the Minister in two cases, In effect, the Minister will be able to in both of which he will be absolute appoint useless people if he so desires. master. The Minister may act of his I think the Minister should give an own volition or on the recommendation indication of the necessary qualifications of the authority. Mr. Bradbury should of proposed appointees. not have contempt for Parliamentary 3526 Estate Agents [COUNCIL.J (Amendm.ent) Bill. language and procedure. The Minister the Government 1should give thought to could remove or appoint at will, and the ;rearrangement of the processes of that is the :point being made by mem­ the fixation of scales of remuneration of bers of my party. He could, if he so estate agents by adopting the procedure desired, appoint men who have a know­ applying in the legal sphere, that those ledge of rural activities only. I can scales of remuneration be fixed by the visualize an executive attempt to run institute, under the chairmanship of a this show, and the Minister should not County Court Judge. be given all of these powers if the The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Miindster people who are to be appointed to the of Health).-! have not neglected the committees are unknown and nebulous. matter to which Mr. Slater directed at­ If the provision had contained only these tention. I think he said that the rates words, " may appoint advisory com­ of commission are fixed by the institute, mittees " I could have understood; but by which he meant-I take it-the com­ when it says "may appoint committees mittee. The committee consists of one to be known as," I am bound to voice my legal man, one accountant and three protest. Our job here is to examine persons from two institutes, and under every relevant word of a clause so that the Act, they have to make the rules and we shall be satisfied that, if it is ulti­ are responsible. The Government gives mately found to be wrong, we did our an assurance that the attention of the best to avert the wrong and that, if it commJttee will be directed to the matter is found to be right, we can take pride· raised by Mr. Slater. in having added to the statutes a perfect piece of legislation. The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 4 and 5. The lion. A. J. BAILEY (Melbourne Clause 6, relating to agent's commis­ West Province).-It was not my purpose sion and providing, inter alia- to delay the business of the Committee. Sect·ion 33 of the principal Act is hereby I asked for some information on a point amended as follows:- that I thought was vague, and all I was told was that !M'r. Butcher would prob­ (b) For paragraph (c) of sub-section (1) ably be a member of one of the advisory there shall be substituted the following paragraph:- committees. I consider that I was war­ " (c) such written engagement or ranted in seeking further information. It appointment is held by has not been forthcoming. I still say, him before he obtains in therefore, that we shall be giving the any way the signature of Minister a blank cheque. any person to any contract agreement or document The clause was agreed to, as were the whatsoever legally binding or in tended legally to bind remaining clauses. any person in respect of The Bill was reported to the House such transaction". with an amendment, and passed through The lion. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern its remaining stages. Province).-! move- That proposed new paragraph (c) of sub­ section (1) be omitted with the view of in­ ESTATE AGENTS (AMENDMENT) serting the following paragraph- BILL. " (c) such written engagement or ap­ pointment is held by him before he· The House went into Committee for has done everything required of the consideration of this Bill. him under the terms -0f his engage­ ment or appointment to be entitled Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. to commission." Clause 3 (Rules of the estate agents I spoke at some length upon this matter committee). in the course of the second-reading debate. The purpose of the amendment The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta is to ensure that an agent should hold Galla Province) .-I direct attention to a his written authority not only when suggestion which I made at the second­ he is engaged to secure a contract but reading considerat:ion of the Bill that also when he is commissioned to Estate Agents [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3527 find a buyer. The amendment merely within ithree months after he first signs any contract agreement or takes out the existing provisfon and in­ document in respect of the sale; serts the one I have now presented, and whi~h will achieve the object I have out­ (b) before the purchaser has- lined. (i) paid the whole of the pur­ chase money; or The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (a.\finister (ii) taken possession of the pro­ of Health) .-Having had some ex­ perty; or (iii) by writing under his hand perience of the difficulties found in the accepted title to the pro­ kind. of transaction dealt with in the perty" clause before the Committee, I cer­ The purpose of my amendment is to tainly agree with the con ten tion of Mr. ensure that the period of three months Feltham. We are rather inclined, when within which a purchaser may rescind a considering Bills such as this, to link our contract is cut down by entering into thoughts to the sale of little blocks of possession, paying the whole of the land or houses in settled places. But purchase money, or accepting title not there are people who, while they are not only where finance has not been found exactly known as estate agents, deal in as promised but also where the grazing property, in farms and rural agent has failed to deliver a statement. lands generally, and they are equally registered under the existing law. Some­ The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister times great difficulties occur respecting of Health).-This proposed amendment the very provision to which Mr. has been considered by the Government, Feltham's amendment is directed. The and it is accepted. amendment, while by no means weaken­ The amendment was agreed to, and ing the purpose of the original Act, will the cliause, as amended, was adopted. smooth out any difficulties that might Clause 8- occur in other 1avenues of agency and will still retain the ~equisite rigidity. For section 35 of the principal Act there Therefore, the Government accepts the shall be substituted the following section:- " 35. ·when an estate agent (whether amendment. by himself or by an employe or sub­ The amendment was agreed to, and the agent) secures the signature of any per­ son to any contraat agreement or other clause, as amended, was adopted. d·ocument pertaining to the sale purchase or exchange of any property or business Clause 7, providing, inter alia- or of any interest therein or of the good­ will of any business he shall at the time (3) For sub-section (4) of section 34 of the signature thereto is obtained deliver the principal Act there shall be substituted a copy of the agreement document .or the following sub-section:- contract to the person signing it and "(4) If such a statement is not so given obtain from such person an acknowledg­ the purchaser may at his option by notice ment in writing of the receipt of such in writing given, within three months copy." after he first signs any contract ·agree­ ment or document in respect of the sale, The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta to the seller or to the auctioneer or agent Galla Province).-! am emboldened by avoid any such contract agreement or the success of Mr. Feltham and greatly document, and in any civil proceedings encouraged by the ready acceptance of arising out of or connected with any such contract agreement or document the onus his amendments by the Minister in of proving that the sta:tement was duly charge of the Bill. I move- give·n shall lie upon the party so alleging." That the following sub-section be added The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern to proposed new section 35:- " (2) No person other than. a duly Province) .-I move- qualified barrister and solicitor of the That in proposed new sub-section (4) the Supreme Court of Victoria shall draw up words " within three months after he first fill up or prepare any instrument relating signs any contract agreement or document to an agreement for the sale of real in respect of the sale, to :the seller or to property." the auctioneer or agent " be omitted with the view of inserting the expression:- My proposal may be regarded as more " to the seller or to the auctioneer or far-reaching, but in view of the com­ agent- plexity of contracts of sale-they are 3528 Estate Agents [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. much more complex than transfers or matter is strongly fortified by Her conveyances of land-unqualified per­ Majesty's Court of Appeal which recently sons should be debarred from preparing recommended that estate agents should them. I have discovered an anomalous not be :permitted to prepare these vitai position concerning contracts of sale and important documents. under the Transfer of Land Act and The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister under the general law. Section 4 of of Health).-! am aware of the keen the Property Law Act 1928 provides- interest that Mr. Slater has taken over N o instrument affecting land of which any person is registered as proprietor under a long period in the matters he has the Transfer of Land Act 1928 and no raised. memorial of any such instrument shall be The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-! should registered under this Part but save as aforesaid "instrument" includes not only like to see disciplinary powers exercised conveyances and other deeds ibut also wills in respect of estate. agents similar to and all writings whatsoever whereby real those administered by the Law Institute estate is affected or expressed or intended of Victoria. so to be. The Hon. E. P. CAMERON.-.! was In view of that provision it would appear engaged for some years in the stock that it Le.; improper for an estate agent business and am aware that Mr. Slater, to prepare a rontract of sale. I regret when he was Attorney-General, in- . that I .feel myself called upon to direct tended to take action along the lines he attention to this matter near the end has suggested, but for some reason that of the session, but it is undoubtedly im­ was not done. The honorable member portant. There are numerous pitfalls made certain representations to the in the preparation of a contract of sale. Statute Law Revision Committee on Of course, any reasonable estate agent this subject recently. After carefully would recommend to a vendor or pur­ considering the evidence of Mr. Slater chaser that he should seek legal advice and other witnesses on this aspect, the on the preparation of the document. committee came to the conclusion that The matter is becoming even more im­ it would be an unreasonable interference portant because -of the number of sub­ with freedom of contract to 'legislate to purchases that are occurring and the render it mandatory for contracts of great task facing lawyers in this regard. sale of real estate to be prepared by In many cases the unfortunate pur­ legal practitioners as suggested. There chaser is a new Australian who has are many instances in which parties bought land under a terms contract. make contracts between themselves. In Difficulties arise when he endeavours view of the recommendations of the to borrow money with which to build Statute Law Revision Committee, usage a house. The New South Wales and over the years, and general practice, British practice of stamping the docu­ I cannot accept the amendment, but give ments initially should be adopted. The Mr. Slater an assurance that the Govern­ State's revenue would also benefit if ment and its advisers will examine the· such a practice were instituted. matters he has raised, which will also· The Hon. R. W. MACK.-Are solicitors be referred to the Statute Law Revision who practise in Albury permitted to Committee. appear in the Supreme Court of Vic­ The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ toria? Western Province).-The Statute Law The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-They Revision Committee thoroughly examined· may practise in Victoria if they comply this matter. The change proposed is a with the conditions of the Legal Pro­ rather sweeping ·one. Having bought fession Practice Act, take out the neces­ and sold land at various times, I realize sary fidelity bonds, and pay a subscrip­ that agents are anxious to have .a sale· tion to. the Law Institute of Victoria. note sigued in order to clinch the sale. Many New :South Wales and South Aus­ The contract should be drawn up by a tralian solicitors practise in towns on solicitor; anyone who does not avail either side of the border under this par­ himself of· a solicitor's services is look­ ticular arrangement. My opinion in this ing for trouble. Most reputable agents· Estate Agents [5 DECEMBER, 1957.J (Amendment) Bill. 3529 suggest such a course. In fact, in Estate Agents Bill was submitted to country districts often one solicitor acts Parliament in 1956, and therefore we for both parties. At the present stage did not have the benefit ·of his my party does not propose to vote for comments on it; they would have aided the amendment, but I suggest the matter the House immeasurably. Mr. Slater .should he referred to the Statute Law must decide his present course of action . Revision Committee for special investi­ Members of my party support his gation. Mr. Feltham has suggested that amendment. the effect of a sale note should be sub­ There is the old saying ignorantia ject to a final contract of sale being juris non excusat) ·which means "Ignor­ signed. There is something in his sug­ ance of the law excuses not." Every­ gestion. If a sale note is drawn in such body is presumed to know the law, a manner that neither party, on the even a new Australian just arrived in advice of a solicitor, will agree to it, Melbourne. Some time ago a magis­ there is obviously something wrong. trate, in fining an immigrant woman The matter can be referred back to the 10s. for a traffic breach, emphasized to Statute Law Revision Committee and her that the law must be obeyed and dealt with early in the new year. that ignorance of its provisions is no The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister excuse. An immigrant newly arrived of Health).-! have given an assurance in Australia and having an imperfect that the Government will consider the knowledge of English, or none at all, suggestion. who affixes his signature to a contract The Hon. R. R. RAWSON (Southern of sale is taken to be thoroughly aware Province).-It has been stated that a of the consequences. Mr. Slater made decision was made by the Statute Law the point most trenchantly that the Revision Committee regarding this question being debated is not primarily measure. I have previously raised in one affecting the interests of the legal this House one aspect of the committee's profession. The interest ·of the citizen, reports. Sometimes members are given new or old Australian, who 'instinctively the impression that, because the com­ accepts protection and help, is more mittee has agreed to the provisions important. Solicitors can do other contained in a Bill, it should be passed things when not drawing these con­ by the House. Although I am a member tracts, but they have a duty to advise of the committee, I feel that should not their clients. Often they find it is necessarily be the attitude of members. impossible to help a client because he This House should consider the report has signed a binding document. of the committee and make its own The prohibition proposed is an excel­ decision. In this case, it was mentioned lent one. The solicitor is greatly that the Bill had been agreed to by restricted. Every year, he must seek the Statute Law Revision Committee, permission to practise and obtain what but I think members should know that I describe as a " dog collar " licence. the decision was not unanimous. When Unfortunately, a Labour Government the measure was being discussed by the brought in the relevant legislation. Of committee, no division was taken on it, course~ the action was taken in the as ha·ppens in many cases. The fact interests of the profession, but it is a that some members were opposed to great vexation for practitioners to have the recommendation indicates that there to apply each year, as though reporting is justification for the matter to be re­ good behaviour. It is unreasonable for considered. Parliament to prescribe that certain The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash classes of people must conduct them­ Province).-Mr. Rawson has stated the selves with due decorum in their position very fairly and with candour. profession and, at the same time say, in It is a fact that often when measures effect, "We are not interested if any­ are discussed by the Statute Law body other than a solicitor draws a Revision Committee there is a majority contract." In undertaking work of this opinion and a minority one. Mr. Slater sort, a solicitor is expected to be as was not present in Victoria when the much bound by the canons of his 3530 King-street [COUNCIL.] Bridge Bill.

profession as if he were preparing a result of much planning by engineers, person's last will and testament. It is considerable thought by road and town not right that documents such as planners, and a great deal of sane contracts of sale should be prepared by thinking and good advice tendered by people unversed in the general law. a body of laymen constituting the Public Mr. Slater must determine the action he Works Committee. shall take, but members of my party support the amendment. It is estimated that the work will cost in the vicinity of £3,750,000. The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta Apart from the actual 1building of the Galla Province).-In view of what I bridge, I understand that expenditure understand to be the agreeableness of will he entailed in the acquisition of land, the Minister of Health to refer this the installation of drainage schemes, matter back to the Statute Law Re­ and the implementation o.f other vision Committee, I am prepared not works. Completion of the Hanna-street to proceed with the amendment. I diversion project, a drainage scheme am conscious of the fact that the which the Melbourne and Metropolitan subject-matter requires even greater Board of Works is now undertaking. consideration than has been given to it. will cost a large sum. On a previous I realize that there is a difference of occasion, I mentioned that considerable opm10n. In view of the Minister's funds were being spent on the purchase undertaking, I shall not press the of implements. The basis of the shar­ matter to a division. ing of the costs is equitable. The The Hon. E. P. CAMERON (Minister Government will pay 65 per cent., the of Health).-! stated that the Govern­ Melbourne City Council 30 per cent., and ment agreed to look into the matter the South Melbourne City Council 5 through its legal advisers and to consider per cent. In view of the fact that an questions arising under the .property area under the bridge on the south side law and other factors. I feel sure there of the Yarra river will be handed over will be no difficulty about referring 1the to the South Melbourne council for matter that has been discussed back to parking facilities, I do not think the Statute Law Revision Committee it is unreasonable for that body to pay for further attention. 5 per cent., so long as it is not asked By leave, the amendment was to contribute further in maintenance, withdrawn. widening, construction, or any other The clause was agreed to, as were costs that could be incurred during the the remaining clauses. erection of this bridge and the building of the roadway. The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, and passed through Much money will need to be spent on its remaining stages. the south side of the river in the widening and reconstruction of Roy­ KING-STREET BRIDGE BILL. street and the reconstruction of Hanna­ The debate (adjourned from the street, and a large expenditure will be previous day) on the motion of Sir involved at the intersections of Queen's Arthur Warner (Minister of Transport) bridge-street, Hanna-street, City-road, for the second reading of this Bill was and Moray-street. Much thought must resumed. be given to the building of a roundabout The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN (Mel­ and the instanation of traffic lights. I bourne West Province) .-This Bill is to should like an assurance from the authorize the building of a bridge which Minister that the expenditure entailed will link two cities, one which fa in these directions will be part of the gradually being .strangled by traffic main scheme, and that the South Mel­ congestion-Melbourne--and the other bourne City Council will not be called which stands on the threshold of great upon to bear any other expense that housing and industrial developments­ will be required as a result of this South Melbourne. The project is the undertaking. King-street [5 DECEMBER, 1957.J Bridge Bill. 3531

Unless some steps are taken for the Hanna-street roadway between Cavan­ reconstruction and widening of Roy­ agh and Grant-streets. The tramline street and Hanna-street, the result will will emerge from the eastern section. be that the congestion of traffic will Although some criticism has been simply be removed from the north side made that the tender has been let to of the river to the south side. I trust the Utah construction company, this that this work will be undertaken with­ was recommended on the advice of the out loss of time so that the bridge will Country Roads Board, which has proved be enabled to give the complete satis­ competent in matters of this kind in the faction for which it is designed. The past. In my opinion, it is not right that original scheme visualized much more the Melbourne and Metropolitan Board work to be carried out, and additional of Works should be •given authority to work will need to be done in the future. handle projects which the Country I understand that a bridge of this nature Roads Board is more fitted to under­ is unique in this Commonwealth, so that take. Every member of this House other States will be interested to see the trusts that this bridge will fulfil the results achieved. When one considers wishes of the planners who recom­ that money is wasted on war and in mended· -its construction so that traffic other ways, it is unfortunate that the congestion in this city will be relieved original plan for the construction of this to some extent. It is a nightmare bridge cannot be carried out because of experience to travel over the Spencer­ lack of finance. street bridge at 8 a.m. or at 5 p.m. The level of Flinders-street will be The South Melbourne City Council raised at a point 450 feet east of the will be called upon to pay a centre line of King-street to a point certain percentage of the cost of con­ 450 feet west of the centre line of struction of this bridge, but residents King-street, to permit traffic approach­ of St. Kilda will share in the benefits. ing the bridge to pass under eastbound It would be a nice gesture if the motor traffic,. and trams will be enabled St. Kilda council offered to pay portion to pass in both directions along of the sum to be paid by the South Flinders-street. Starting on the north Melbourne City Council so that some bank, traffic will move on to the bridge, of its burden will be alleviated. When and after travelling 75 feet will be this bridge is completed it will un­ separated, by means of an elevated road­ doubtedly be of benefit .to those who way leaving the low level roadway some make use of it and will improve land traffic going into Hanna-street and some values on the South Melbourne side of into Yarra Bank-road. Two low the river. level ·bridges will be constructed-one for traffic travelling towards Queen's The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ bridge-street, and the other for traffic Western Province).-This legislation is going to Clarendon-street. The elevated necessary' to validate the construction highway will continue to rise until it of this bridge, which is designed to crosses the railway lines to Port Mel­ improve the flow of traffic through bourne and St. Kilda, and then it will be Melbourne. Allocations of expenditure on the down grade where it crosses over have been arranged and approved by all Whiteman-street, continuing over and parties concerned. In those circum­ parallel with Hanna-street. The result stances, it is hardly necessary for me will be two roadways, one just above to say more. Everyone realizes the the other. At a distance 100 feet north­ requirements of traffic and the need for west of Queen's bridge-street and City such bridges as this. It may be that road intersection the bridge will divide other means could have been found, and separate. The divided sections and possibly too many bridges are will fly-over this intersection, and the being built. However, competent Queen's bridge tramline will pass under engineers and town planners have de­ the eastern section of the bridge. · One cided that this bridge is necessary, and roadway will continue on the down grade in those circumstances my party past Cavanagh-street and will meet the supports the measure. 3532 King-street [COUNCIL.) Bridge Bill.

The motion was agreed to. Clause 9 ·(Bridge to be a public The Bill was read a second time and highway and a metropolitan bridge committed. under No. 5982). Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of Clause 3 (Bridge to be constructed Transport).-For the reasons I stated by Country Roads Board). when discussing clause 3, I move-- . Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of That the following sub-clause ·be Transport).-! desire to move two inserted to follow sub-clause (2) :- " ( ) Where any part of the bridge amendments which have been made consists of an elevated roadway or other necessary upon closer examination of structure above any land, vested in or the Bill and its effect upon the rail­ under the control of the Victorian Rail­ ways. Railway lines pass under the ways Commissioners, which is not part bridge, and perhaps over it in some of the bridge, the construction or­ dedication of that part of the bridge shall places, but the Bill as it now stands not in any way abridge or affect the right provides that the land over which the title and interest of the said Comnis­ bridge passes comes under the control sioners in that land except to the exte:1t of the Country Roads Board and the that they may be necessarily limited or· modified by the existence of the elevated Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of roadway or structure and the supports Works, which would mean that certain thereof." railway land would come under their The amendment was agreed to, and control. These two amendments are the clause, as amended, was' adopted. necessary to overcome that position. I move-- The Bill was reported to the House That the following sub-clause be in­ with amendments, and passed through serted to follow sub-clause (6) of clause its remaining stages. 3:- 11 ( ) The Board shall not commence any works which in any way affect the Port WATER SUPPLY LOAN Melbourne railway or the St. Kilda rail­ APPLICATION BILL. way or the land upon which either such railway is situated unless the Board and The debate (adjourned from the the Victorian Railways Commissioners previous day) on the motion of the have, after consultation by their represen­ Hon. E. P. Cameron (Minister of tatives, agreed with respect to the manner Health) for the second reading of this and conditions under which such works are to be carried out, and in the event of Bill was resumed. a failure to agree upon any such matter, the matter may .be determined by Order The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON (South­ of the Governor in Council which Order Western Province).-This is one of many shall be final and conclusive and shall be loan application Bills that come before given effect to by the Board and by the the House periodically, and I do not said Commissioners." think it is necessary to discuss it in great The amendment was agreed to, and detail. The measure provides for the the clause, as amended, was adopted, ·as application of the sum of £12,000,000, was clause 4. but it is proposed that only £7,200,000 Clause 5 (As to materials arising will be available in this financial year. from works). For the last financial year, the loan The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN (Mel­ funds available to the State Rivers and bourne West Province).-! ask the Water Supply Commission amounted to Minister whether the materials from the £7,566,000. We have the assurance that excavation works will be made avail­ the Commission has the capacity fully to able to the contractors and sold as a expend the amount that has been contra to the building account. allocated. Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of The Ministerial notes explaining loan Transport) .-The general idea is to use application Bills, bear a remarkable re­ this material for filling in areas near semblance, year in and year out. Obvi­ Dudley Fla ts. ously, they are prepared departmentally The clause was agreed to, as were and, .subject to a few minor alterations, clauses 6 to 8. they are merely monotonous repetition, Water Supply Loan [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Application Bill. 3533 because they always express the same application Bills. New sets of excuses comments. In the notes and the speeches may be introduced as to why some pro­ of Ministers an opportunity is taken jects cannot be undertaken. by the Government to blow its own 'f.he Hon. 'E. P. CAMERON.-Now you trumpet and to engage in propaganda. are speaking about your Government. In addition, Departments use the opportunity to commend themselves. The Hon. D. P. J. F'ERGUSON.-The There is running through t:q.e notes present Government has the most in­ continual reference to the shortage of glorious record in the matter of wastage. loan funds. The Government should It says, " We are not getting enough display more originality, and members from the Commonwealth Government should be given factual descriptions of and we are badly treated with loan the purposes for which the money is funds." Although the previous Ad­ being provided. An examination of ministration received much less than departmental reports reveals that em­ this Government has received, it did phasis appears to be placed on the more than this Government has done. excellent work a Department is doing, It did not finish the financial year with that the shortage of loan funds is a a huge deficit which had to be deducted consistent lament, and here and there from the following year's allocation of one finds a " plug " for the Government. loan funds. I repeat that a· factual de­ The Hon. E. P. CAMERON.-You mean scription should be given of the proposed for any Government? expenditure in these Bills so that un­ due waste wil'l be avoided. It is not a The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON.­ cas·e of how much money a Department Yes, every Government. I repeat that receives, but whether or not the alloca­ there should not be this monotonous tion is wisely expended. In that con­ repetition in explaining Bills of this nexion, every member has a responsi­ nature. The Ministerial notes and bility. Despite what has !been said by speeches follow the same pattern. th·e Minister of Health, the amount to The Hon. E. P. CAMERON.-On be available this financial year will be occasions, additional works are men­ in the region of £300,000 less than the tioned. sum available last year. The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON.-! The Hon. E. P. CAMERON.-You are have said that there is a little adjust­ a little off the beam. ment here and there. Each Department The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON.-! appears to have a considerable store of must have been misled by the Minister's these notes and they are brought out notes. when required. Major items should be high-lighted by Ministers in greater The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager). detail. -Order! To what notes is Mr. Ferguson referring? The Hon. K P. CAMERON.-! directed attention to the main expenditures under The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON.-! am the Bill, without reading the notes. referring to the Minister's notes. The Hon. D. P. J. F.ERGUSON.-That The P.RESIDENT.-And not to the was a good thing. It would be appre­ Minister's speech? ciated if Ministers disregarded the notes The Hon. D. P. J. IBRGUSON.-No, and acquainted themselves with the actual provisions of Bills, and made Mr. President. their speeches accordingly. The PRiESIDENT.-If Mr. Ferguson 'f.he Hon. E. P. CAMERON.-Some informs the House that the notes came members of your party did not follow to him personally .from the Minister, he that practice when they were in Cabinet. is entitled to refer to them. It should be made dear that he is not referring to The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON.-! am the Minister's speech. It would be emphasizing the monotonous repetition wrong to read into the Minister's speech that is adopted when explaining loan something that was not in it. 3534 Water Supply Loan [COUNCIL.) Application Bill.

The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON.-The · could well come under the Geelong notes mu.st be taken as the basis of the Waterworks and Sewerage Trust so far Minister's speech. The honorable gentle­ as a water supply is concerned. Already, man said that the amount provided in that authority has jurisdiction over an the last loan application Bill was area within a 5-mile radius of Geelong, £7,556,000. Earlier he stated that the and I understand that it would not ob­ allocation this year will be limited to ject to an enlargement of its area. £7,200,000. I made a statement and the Being a local authority, it would be Minister, in great haste, tried to imply better situated to appreciate the local that I was speaking incorrectly. He needs. Apart from that criticism which contradicted me when I said that the I trust shall receive consideration, I amount for the State 'Rivers and Water support the Bill. Supply Commission this year will be £300,000 less than last year. In effect, The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North­ we are travelling in reverse. Eastern Province).-The Country party supports this measure. The estimated The Hon. E. P. CAMERON.-Again, you expenditure on water supply, drainage, are off the beam. Read further passages and so on, for the current financial year from the notes. is £7,200,000 and, while I agree that this The Hon. D. P. J. FiERGUSON.-The money will be wisely spent, I contend Minister's interjection justifies my earlier that if a greater financial allocation was remarks about the notes !being a repeti­ made available to the Commission, it tion year in and year out. The notes could be used in the best interests of the are the basis for the Minister's explana­ State. As honorable members are tory speech, and he is not .familiar with arware, except for minor works in con­ the details of the expenditure. Not only nexion with deviation roads-the Bill this Government, but also other Adminis­ provides £350,000 for this purpose--the trations, have been at fault in this Eildon weir has been completed. The en­ direction. One would expect the Minis­ largement of the weir has increased the ter in charge of a Bill involving heavy storage capacity from 305,000 acre-feet expenditure to make himself familiar to 2,750,000 acre-feet of water, and we with its provisions. are extremely fortunate that, in the first year following the completion of the I am not satisfied that the State project, the weir was completely filled. Rivers and Water Supply Commission The additional water supply will prove always gives due consideration to press­ a great asset to Victoria, and I trust that ing and urgent needs; rather H dis­ this project will be the forerunner of plays a tendency to concentrate on many other similar projects designed to spectacular works. I refer specifically harness the streams in this State. Al­ to the acute shortage of water on the though the entire Eildon project will Bellarine Peninsula. There have been cost approximately £20,000,000, this several deputations to the Minister on expenditure will be returned in almost this question, and considerq.ble corres­ one year by reason .of the increased pro­ pondence has passed between the Com­ ductivity fl.owing from the additional mission and the local municipal councils, water supply. Last year, as a result of with a view to improving the the increased supply, the Commission water supply to such towns as was able to deliver to irrigators in the Indented Heads, Portarlington and Goulburn system 413,577 acre-feet of St. Leonards. Certainly, Portarling­ water-an all-time reco11d. It is esti­ ton has ·a water supply and steps mated that this additional water was have been taken to provide a booster responsible for increased productivity to pump with which to improve this supply, the value of approximately £18,000,000. but, generally speaking, St. Leonards If 413,577 acre-feet can produce -in fact the whole of the Bellarine £18,000,000, what is 2, 750,000 acre-feet Peninsula-is starved for water; it is capable of producing? Obviously, there­ starved also for consideration by the fore, 'if all of the State's major streams Commission. Being situated as it is, were similarly harnessed, untold wealth I suggest that the Bellarine Peninsula would be created in this State. WaUlr Supply Loan [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Application Bill. 3535

It should be remembered that last year assured water is slightly over 3,000,000 Victoria experienced one of the worst gallons a day. In February of this year, flood years fa its history, and that ex­ it was impracticable to supply sufficient penditure of between £1,000,000 and water for the town's nee<;ls and it was £2,000,000 was incurred to rehabilitate necessary to place sandbags in the King­ many of those landholders who suffered. river so that the dregs of water could Additionally, many roads and bridges be utilized. This could be the fore­ which were washed away had to be re­ runner of a very serious drought. placed. If the streams of the State were If, as has been the case in the past, the harnessed one by one, a good deal of Ovens or King rivers cease flowing, in­ expenditure of that type would be dustry in the town and even the town obviated. itself could· collapse. In addition to the increased water I was hoping that provision would supply attendant upon the enlargement be made in the Bill for the com­ of the Eildon weir, it was possible to mencement of a survey of these rivers. increase the hydro-electric generating It is of no use waiting until the flow capacity at Eildon from 16,000 to of water ceases tbefore steps are taken. 136,000 kilowatts. This has proved of The Mines Department ihas stated that great benefit to the State. Consequently, there are ample supplies of under­ the progressive harnessing of the ground water available. Although tbor­ State's waterways would have many ing tests have been undertaken over advantages. It is pleasing to note that twelve months, only two out of 28 the Bill provides for a further allocation exploratory bores sunk have proved to for drainage works in the Murray be productive. Indications are that at Valley district. As a result of flooding least another twelve bores providing a last year, many soldier settlers in the flow of 8,000 to 10,000 gallons of water Murray Valley soldier settlement area an hour will be required to ensure an virtually had to walk off their holdings, adequate supply in drought years. The which were submerged for long periods State Rivers and Water Supply Com­ because there was no provision for mission promised about twelve months drainage. This area is one of the most ago that a survey would be made some productive parts of the State. Whereas time in the distant future. Such a originally there were barely 100 farms promise is not good enough when the there, to-day 600 or 700 settlements survival of a town like Wanga­ are producing great wealth for the ratta is at stake. We are not State. optimistic so far as under-ground water supplies are concerned, but The Bill makes ·provision for further if steps were taken to conserve the extensions to town water supplies, with waters of either the King river or the a view to providing all towns with the Ovens river, water could be made avail­ amenity of an assured water supply. able also for agricultural purposes. ·On For the 'Mornington Peninsula system the river flats in my area, tobacco second alone, £450,000 will be provided. This to none in the Commonwealth is pro­ will prove a great asset to those people. duced, while hop and flax growing is In my own electorate, the residents undertaken extensively, as well as dairy will face a tragic situation if the in­ and beef production. Additional water dications of this year may be taken as a supplies in that area would return un­ forerunner of what may be expected told wealth to the State. The Govern­ next year. On statistics compiled in ment should impress upon the Com­ 1954, no town outside the Latrobe mission the need for a survey to ·be Valley has developed to such a degree made at the earliest possitble moment. as Wangaratta. An outstanding I am pleased to note that provision industry-Bruck Mills Limited-which is made in the BiU for the drainage of employs 1,000 men and women is Lake Corangamite, a matter in which flourishing there. The local water trust I am particularly interested. This is supplies 650,000 gallons of water daily important work as it will reclaim some to this industry. The maximum of of the most fertile land in the Western 3536 Water Supply Loan [COUNCIL.] .Application B~ll.

District. One member of the State irrigation projects have been com­ Rivers and Water Supply Commisslon pleted. Country towns cannot progress is due to retire next year. He has unless they have 1an assured water given valuable service to our State. supply, and, as one who has been asso­ However, from the point of view of ciated with decentralization movements, Country .party members-for that I can say that one of the first ques­ matter members who reside in the tions asked by industrialists when they country irrespective of their party-it are contemplating establishing an in­ is important that his successor should dustry in a country town is related to be a man with practical irrigation ex­ the water supply. When adequate sup­ perience. At the present time, the Com­ plies are not assured, no industries are mission is composed of men who are established. experienced and capable in the adminis­ trative and engineering fields, and we The schedule to the Bill ena!bles hon­ consider that the appointment of a orable members to make comparisons practical irrigator will be of great of the money expended by the Commis­ benefit. On behalf of the Country sion. In most cases, we approve of party, I support the Bill. what has been done, but at times direct The Hon. T. H. GRIGG (Bendigo attention to the fact 1:hat some projects Province) .-The purpose of this Bill is have been starved for funds. I refer to authorize expenditure to the extent particularly to those works which affect of £12,000,000 by the State Rivers and the area I represent. I notice in the Water Supply Commission, but I am twelfth part of the schedule that sure that honorable members will regret £400,000 is provided for Loddon river that only £7,200,000 will be spent in the storages. Portion of that money will be present financial year. This means that used to complete compensation pay­ many .projects which have been ments to landowners under the Cairn " hanging fire " for some time will Curran scheme, and a further sum will not be completed. That is to be be paid to the Railway Department for deplored. I, together with other 1the cost of deviating the line caused country residents, consider that water by the flooding of section of the conservation should be given the Castlemaine-Maryborough track. The first priority in our State works pro­ balance will be used for work in gramme. Without water, country people connexion with the Tullaroop reservoir. cannot exist. The succession ·Of wet This will augment the water supply to seasons experienced has enabled pro­ the town of Maryborough, which has duction in the country to he main­ grown immensely in recent years. It is tained in recent years. However, now one of the most highly-industrialized during the past year many areas have towns in Victoria. Shortage of water received only half of their normal rain­ has placed the town in a desperate fall and the country is in a precarious position. If no appreciable falls of rain position. In many country towns domes­ are experienced next year, a tragic tic water supplies are restricted. For­ situation will develop. At present, the tunately, the Eildon, Rocklyn and Evansford reservoir has a total capacity Cairn Curran reservoirs have been of 164,000,000 gallons. I was a member completed and are filled, and even if of the town water supply committee in rainfall should not be up to the average 1944 when an inspection was made of next year, the areas they serve will still a new site at Mount Cameron. It was be able to maintain :production. It is pointed out that the run-off to the interesting to note that £31,626,326 has Evansford reservoir was so poor that been expended on irrigation projects in a rainfall of 6 inches over the whole the last ten years. That expenditure watershed, even with no pull-off will repay great dividends to the State. from the reservoir, would raise the For many years I have been level of the reservoir by only 10 inches. urging the Government in office To make matters worse, the Soldier to give consideration to the claims Settlement Commission has· now taken of town water supplies, now that up land on the Mount Mitchell Estate in Water Supply Loan [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Application Bill. 3537 the watershed area, and that will reduce town during the past two years. The the run off of water to the Evansford position in the Coliban district is reservoir. desperate at present, and deputations The proposed storage area of the have been received by the Minister of Tullaroop reservoir is 60,000 acre Water Supply, who has visited the feet. Water will be supplied not only district to investigate methods of to the township of Maryborough but for alleviating the shortage. The rainfall certain irrigation works along the Deep in that area this year has been only creek. Only last Tuesday, a deputation 50 per cent. of normal, and the result from Maryborough waited on the is that tomato growers and urban Minister of Water Supply, and the Com­ dwellers are short of water. The mission and pointed out the disastrous towns of Bendigo, Barkers Creek, position facing the town. The Minister Elphinstone, Guildford, Kangaroo Flat, advised them to proceed with the work of Raywood, Taradale, Castlemaine, laying pipes and erecting a pumping Campbells Creek, Epsom, Harcourt, plant, and promised that water would be Maldon, Sebastian, Yapeen, Eaglehawk, made available from the Deep creek. He Ohewton, Fryerstown, Huntly, Myers assured them that '1he Tullaroop Flat, Spring Gully and Marong are reservoir would be given the highest served by the Coliban system, and in priority, and he said that he hoped that that area the total area of orchards during next year further work Wiould irrigated in 1956-57 was 3,07'8 acres, be commenced. the area of tomatoes was 7 44 acres, Reference is also made in the twelfth and the total area of pastures was 4,868 part of the schedule to the Coliban acres. system. This is a unique system which The catchment area of the Coliban serves 21 towns in the Bendigo district. river above Malmsbury reservoir is 110 It covers Harcourt and other irrigation square miles, and that of the Upper areas, but only £250,000 has been pro­ Campaspe river beyond the Ashbourne vided for the extension and enlargement diversion is 15 square miles. Following of mains and the concreting of channels. the dry period in 1938, provision was Funds have been set aside .for work made to divert the Campaspe river by between Chewton and Elphinstone. what is now known as the Ashbourne This proposal has been mooted for many cut. This was achieved by placing a years. The Castlemaine water supply pile of rocks in the river, and forcing is of poor quality, particularly during the water down the cut. There are the rainy periods. The main concreted three main storage areas in the Coliban channel, which goes on to Bendigo, system. The first was built 80 years passes through clay country and, follow­ ago at Malmsbury, and the Upper ing rain, erosion occurs. As the Golden Caliban reservoir was completed later. Point reservoir is not large enough to The Lauriston reservoir was con­ hold back sufficient water, people in structed in 1938 by a Country party the town have received poor supplies Government against the recommenda­ for many years. With the building tion of the State Rivers and Water of the Elphinstone dam, it is proposed Supply Commission. In the first year to bring Maldon, Harcourt and after its completion it was full and has Newstead under the scheme. Water will provided an adequate supply of water have to be piped to those towns, and it until this year. The local residents are is desirable that the Commission should concerned as to what will happen to get on with this job in the next two the irrigated farms in the area. The years. My home town has suffered total capacity of the three storage severely from the breaking down of the areas is 56,100 acre-feet, which is the water main from Porcupine Ridge to equivalent of 15,280,000,000 gallons of Maldon. This main, which is wood water. On the 20th November of this staved, has been down for 40 years, year, the supply held was 33,533 acre­ and more water is lost from it than feet or 9,121,000,000 gallons of water. reaches Maldon. The result is that Those figures illustrate how short the there have been restrictions in that water supply is in the area. The capacity Session 1956.-144 3538 Water Supply Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. of the servke basins is 1,938 acre-feet that it was intended to commence con­ or 525,000,000 gallons, and at present struction after the completion of the all are full. The total length of the Tullaroop dam. channels used to deliver the water to The motion was agreed to. the town is 384! miles, 83! miles of which are ·cement lined, and 301 miles The Bill was read a second time and of earthen construction. The loss by committed. seepage from the earthen channels in The clauses were agreed to. 1956-57 was estimated to be approxi­ Schedule. mately 11,300 acre-feet or 36 per cent. of the total water released from the The Hon~ A. K. BRADBURY (North­ Eastern Province).-In the eighth part main storages. The estimated loss by of the schedule a sum of £600,000 has evaporation was 4,000 acre-feet. been allocated for river improvement The Caliban Investigation Committee trusts and other works. Of that ·sum has urged the Commission from time £350,000 is to go to existing or proposed to time to install other storages in the river boards, river improvement, drain­ Maldon system. I pass that system on age or flood protection trusts and •public the average three or four times a authorities, leaving only £250,000 for the week, and for five months of the year trusts enumerated in that part of the I see water running over the by-wash schedule. I know that the rivers and at Malmsbury. As there is no other streams of this State are causing grave weir below this one, the water goes to problems for the Government and I pay waste. Something should be done in tribute to the fact that new river trusts that regard, otherwise industries that have been established even though there have been established in the area will be is a shortage of funds. These new handicapped. The position at Harcourt trusts have made a worth-while .contri­ is that the quota of water is 40 per bution to the assets of this State by cent. of normal. In that town there de-snagging the rivers and preventing are 2,400 acres of fruit trees which erosion wherever possible. However, bring in an annual income of £750,000. the £250,000 to be provided will not Wages paid by the orchardists amount even scratch the surface of the work to £110,000 a year and at the cool store, that is required. I consider that the £90,000 a year. The waters from the amount should be increased to not less upper reaches of the Campaspe river than £1,000,000, and that the grant above the Ashbourne cut have been should be on a higher basis than the pre­ diverted, but the Bill contains no men­ sent five to one ratio. For instance, tion of the weir at Eppalock. £15,000 is being made available to the King River Improvement Trust, but little I pay tribute to the Minister of Water effective work will be achieved with Supply and the Chairman of the State that sum. The Government has indi­ Rivers and Water Supply Commission cated its desire to do something for taking immediate action to try to worth while on our river frontages, but relieve the position in this area. Had I do not subscribe to the theory that the water been diverted through the the responsibility should be on the owner Ashbourne cut three months ago, there of the land. These river frontages have would have been a steady flow into the been seriously affected by erosion storages and restrictions would have because of the neglect of past Adminis­ been avoided. In addition, I should like trations. I believe the State should to thank the Minister for his proposal provide the necessary money to prevent to investigate known underground stor­ this erosion. I was amazed when I saw ages in the area. If suitable supplies the tremendous amount of erosion that are found it is proposed to transfer has taken place in Gippsland, where boring plant there and put down bores. many farms have been rendered useless. I have made inquiries at the Commis­ Individual farmers have not the facili­ sion as to why the Eppalock weir is not ties to undertake preventive work.. If to be proceeded with. I understand the State took a lead in this matter I that that is a long range project, and am sure that the individual property The Hon. T. H. Grigg. State Forests Loan [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Application Bill. 3539 owners would do all in their power to to point out, however, that there is lack assist. I believe that U the Govern­ of uniformity between the regula­ ment carried out the initial work the tions of the Forests Commission owners of the land would agree to being and of the Country Fire Autho­ responsible for the necessary mainten­ rity. Under the Country Fire ance w..grk. Surely, the people of to-day Authority Act no person is allowed to should not be penalized for the sins of light a fire in the open, without a permit, former generations in allowing our during proclaimed periods but, under the streams to deteriorate. I appeal to the Forests Act grass fires may be lit sub­ Government to contribute at least the ject to compliance with certain condi­ sum of £1,000,000 for restoration work tions, without obtaining a permit. Last which, within a short space of time, will year, I brought this matter to the notice yield ·profitable results by bringing back of the Forests Commission and am into .production land that has been .pleased to state that that body has adversely aff e.cted by· erosion. More­ heeded my representations. I under­ over, it will have the effect of preventing stand that it intends to submit a proposi­ many floods in the future. tion to the Minister of Forests in the The schedule was agreed to. near future with the object of having the respective regulations brought into The Bill was reported to the House line. I point out that although there are without amendment, and passed through fire spotting towers and fire brigade its remaining stages. lookouts with wireless communication, these facilities count for little if a grass STATE FORESTS LOAN fire "blows up." When smoke is APPLICATION BILL. noticed coming from a particular area, The debate (resumed from the pre­ no one is particularly concerned whether vious day) on the motion of the Hon. G. it emanates from a bush or a grass fire; S. McArthur) for the second reading of the main considera tion is to reach the this Bill was resumed. danger spot as quickly as possible. The Hon. ARTHUR SMITH (Bendigo Last year .there were several false Province) .-The kernel of this Bill is alarms arising from fires t!hat had been readily discernible in its schedule. My lit in grasslands, subject to the conditions only complaint is that a larger sum than of the Forests Act. The police were con­ £970,000 has not been made available. siderably perturbed about the position, Money expended on State forests is not which revealed that there was a loop­ wasted; it is well applied. The measure hole in the law. Last week-end, in makes financial provision for the pur­ north-eastern Victoria there was one fire chase of land, for fire protection work, in the Mansfield-Whitfield area and for the improvement and development of another in the Yackandandah district. indigenous State forests, including silvi­ They resulted from clearing operati'Jns cultural work, · for the construction of in forest areas. Possibly it was con­ roads for the extraction of forest pro­ sidered that a reasonable downpour of duce, for the protection of plantations of rain would have quenched the fires, but softwoods and hardwoods, for forest no rain came. Much of the State is now officers' quarters, workshops and other tinder dry, and unless heavy rain falls buildings, and for the purchase of plant soon there is danger of fires as serious and machinery. When we reflect upon as those that occurred in 1939. Every­ the loss of life suffered in the moun­ thing humanly possible should be done tainous districts of New South Wales in to combat bush and grass fires, with the the last week or two, we do not be­ object of protecting human life and pub­ grudge the money expended on our lic and private property. State forests. The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North­ Province).-There is little I can add to Eastern Province).-! thoroughly agree what has been stated by Mr. Smith and in principle with the allocation of sub­ Mr. Swinburne as to the importance of stantial sums of money for the protection developing and protect·ing our forests. and development of forest areas. I wish Item No. 3 of the schedule relates to the 3540 Motor Car [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. improvement and development of in­ The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern digenous State forests, including silvi­ Province).-The Bill makes a number cultural work. That is an important of unrelated amendments to the Motor aspect. It is unfortunate, as country Car ·Act 1951. When making his dwellers know, that so many of our second-reading speech, the Minister of trees contain eucalyptus and other con­ Transport took the unusual course of stituents that are readily inflammable. not only dealing with the measure Nevertheless, by the adoption of .proper in a general way but also of methods of silviculture our forest areas discussing in detail individual clauses can be turned to good use by this and sub-clauses. My party is of generation and preserved for posterity. opinion that he accurately explained the The measure is deserving of commenda­ Bill and has no quarrel with any of its tion. provisions. Accordingly we support the measure. The motion was agreed to. The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time, and The Bill was read a second time and passed through its remaining stages. committed. Clauses 1 to 9 were agreed to. MOTOR CAR (AMENDMENT) Clause 10, relating inter alia to penal­ BILL. ties, &c., in cases of overloading. The debate (adjourned from the previ­ The Hon. G. L. TILLEY (South­ ous day) -on the motion of Sir Arthur Eastern Province) .-Paragraph (/) of Warner (Minister of Transport) for the this clause deals with penalties in second reading of this Bill was resumed. cases of overloading. At present only the driver of a vehicle is The Hon. G. L. TILLEY (South­ Eastern Province).-This Bill amends held liable for that particular in­ fringement. I compliment the Gov­ the Motor Car Act 1951 in certain fundamental respects. It deals with ernment on extending the liability to vehicle ·owners, but consider that the the maximum permissible load that a onus should apply solely to owners. transport vehicle may carry, the maxi­ To-day, most drivers have little to do mum height of such vehicles, and the placement of the onus in respect of with the loading of vehicles; they merely drive them from one point to another. various breaches of the regulations. In Of course, if my suggestion were the early days of the operation of road adopted an owner-driver would still be vehicles, generally speaking the driver liable. At present if a driver refuses w~s the owner of the vehicle, but the to drive a vehicle which he knows is industry has grown to such an extent overloaded he is faced with the pos­ that now large companies specialize in sibility of dismissal from employment, road haulage and there are not so many which I do not think is fair. On the owner-drivers. The Government is to other hand, if a driver is found guilty be commended for extending the onus of several offences he may ultimately in respect of road worthiness and other lose his licence. I have been in touch breaches of the regulations to the owner with the union concerned which, as well as to the driver of the vehicle. although it appreciates the relaxation At the Committee stage I shall discuss proposed, considers that it will not that particular aspect. One good remove the tendency for some owners feature of the Bill is the proposal to of transport vehicles to order their em­ grant free registration to invalids who ployees to overload or not to have a use motor conveyances. Another point vehicle made roadworthy. The union's is that the owner and not the driver contention is that the liability should will be held responsible if a vehicle be placed solely on the owner and not that is not registered is driven on a on the driver who, in many cases, is an public thoroughfare. Generally speak­ unwilling offender against the legis­ ing, the Bill is necessary to bring lation. The union has received a the law up to date and to clarify it. number of complaints by members to Country Fire Authority [5 DECEMBER} 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3541 the effect that they have been ordered The Country Fire Authority, which by owners to drive a vehicle which is has been established for some ten years, overloaded, on the basis that the owner has made a tremendous contribution will accept responsibility and pay the towards ensuring the safety of the fine if the driver is caught. I urge the Victorian countryside. I have had the Minister of Transport to examine this pleasure of conducting business with the matter. Chief Officer, Mr. Daw; the secretary, Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of Mr. Sinclair; and Mr. Larkins, deputy Transport).-The Government has chief officer. The organization has been already examined this matter and con­ overhauled, and urban brigades and rural siders that the owner should be held fire fighting authorities established. The liable, particularly if he forces the Authority seems to have the goodwill driver to carry an overload. On the of everybody interested in fire protection other hand, if it were made the sole measures. Lack of funds is the only responsibility of the owner he might limiting factor. If its allocation were then say that he had instructed the increased, it could provide mo:fe effective driver not to overload the vehicle but equipment and extend its operations, that he had been disobeyed. The thus ensuring that Victoria would be Government decided to take the step of relatively safe from any major fire making the owner as well as the driver disaster. The Authority has acted responsible. That will enable either or efficiently, and its work will be assisted both to be charged and thus the position by amendment of the legislation as can be clarified. proposed in the Bill. The Labour party supports the measure. The Hon. G. L. TILLEY.-! thank the Minister of Transport for his explana­ The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North­ tion. Eastern Province).- This Bill, which The clause was agreed to, as were the has been submitted at the request remaining clauses and the schedule. of some members of my party, is similar to a measure which was The Bill was reported to the House introduced several years ago when without amendment, and passed objections were ·raised to certain through its rema.ining stages. prov1s1ons. It is now presented The sitting was suspended at 6.32 p. m. in a slightly amended form, mainly for until 7.42 p.m. the purpose of co.nt:r.olling diesel trans­ ports on our highways. In the northern COUNTRY FIRE AUTHORITY part of the State in the past few weeks (AMENDMENT) BILL. there has been a repetition of occur- The debate (adjourned from the . rences during the last fire season when previous day) on the motion of the many outbreaks of fire occurred by rea­ Hon. G. S. McArthur (Minister of son of the operation of trucks powered Forests) for the second reading of this by diesel engines. Ascending hills, these Bill was resumed. trucks throw out a terrific shower of The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON (South­ sparks and burning material from their western Province) .-The amendments exhausts, which are usually turned to contained in the Bill are necessary. The one side. When the grass is tinder dry Country Fire Authority is a most it does not take very much to start fires. capable organization to be entrusted As a result of this Bill, the Country with the necessary powers to prevent Fire Authority will be enabled to make bush fires, and I hope that as a result regulations for the control of these of its work unfortunate happenings such diesel vehicles, and also to control heat as those now taking place in various engines used in farming communities parts of New South Wales will not and for other purposes throughout the occur in this State. In future, all types State. As the Bill makes provision for of heat engines, including those that regulations to cover the position with­ may be developed, will be properly out prohibiting the use of heat engines, controlled with the object of minimizing which would interrupt necessary work the fire hazard. carried out by such engines during the 3542 Railway Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. summer period, at the same time safe­ The deteriorating financial position is a guarding the interests of the State, my matter for very serious concern and unless effective action is taken to ~ontrol the party supports it. rap.id.I)'.' increasing and unfairly competitive The motion was agreed to. act1v1t1es of commercial roa:d operators to ~hich re~e~en~.e is made under the heading The Bill was read a second time, and Compet1t10n, the State will continue to passed through its remaining stages. be. burdened with increasing railway de­ ficits and increasing road maintenance costs without any compensating benefits. RAILWAY LOAN APPLICATION BILL. The deficit incurred by this Government to the end of June, 1957, was £5,192,000, The debate (adjourned from December which was almost £1,000,000 higher than ·3) on the motion of Sir Arthur Warner ~he deficit for the previous year, so that (Minister of Transport) for the second m those two financial years the deficit reading of this Bill was resumed. amounted to almost £10,000,000. The Hon. J. J. JONES (Ballarat I am .concerned at dismissals made by Province).-This Bill authorizes an the Rmlways Commissioners this year. expenditure of loan funds amounting to In answer to a question, the Minister of £10,500,000 on the railways. It is Transport informed me some weeks ago unfortunate that a Bill involving the that 29'6 men had been dismissed from expenditure of such an amount ·was not track maintenance gangs owing to the presented a little sooner. The Minister in his second-reading speech, quite rightly, necessity for the railways to operate departed somewhat from the notes that within the funds available. It is most were prepared and referred to certain unsettling to the men concerned to be aspects, such as interest, of which I did dismissed and told that if they travel not make a note at the time; therefore, to another part of the State they may I must rely on my memory to debate be employed later on the building of the those ·points. Although this Bill sanc­ new gauge line between Albury and tions the expenditure of £10,500,000, in Melbourne. That work is not yet folly the light of past experience, that amount under way, and only 1·50 men are en­ will not be spent during the ensuing gaged. I understand that in the twelve months. Last year an amount of new year the work force will be built £11,000,000 was sanctioned in a similar up to 400 or 500 men. It is bad policy Bill, but only £7,400,000 was used by the for the railways to dismiss men engaged Railway Department. on the vital work of maintaining rail­ way tracks. J:n the north-western dis­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-The term trict of Victoria some men who were covered is fifteen months. You are deal­ dismissed are married, and it would be ing with annual appropriations, which most inconvenient for them to work in last year were £8,000,000 and this year another part of the State. are £7,500,000. The Hon. J. J. JONES.-! thank the The Minister made reference to the Minister for that information. There building of the new gauge line which, are 205 items listed in the schedule. I although very desirable, must not dis­ assume that many of those items will tract attention from the maintenance not be covered because, on past experi­ of the rest of the railways in the State. ence, it would be impossible to cover that· Much emphasis will be placed on the aµiount of expenditure. There seems to new ·gauge line, and although the funds be some repetition of items when the made available for that work will not Minister's notes are compared with have any bearing on this Bill, it is items listed for the previous twelve obvious that much railway administra­ months. This indicates that many works tion will be diverted in that direction are carried on from year to year and and other vital railway requirements until such time as funds become avail­ throughout the State may be neglected. able. The report issued by the Victorian Considering the over-all figures of the Railways Commissioners for the year Railway Department, one is forced to ended 30th June, 1957, contains a rather the conclusion_;borne out by the state­ depressing statement to this effect- ment of the Railways Commissioners to Railway Loan [5 DECEMBER, 1957.J Application Bill. 3543

which I referred-that there is need in The Hon. J. J. JONIES.-Members this State for some plan of railway of our party are eager to see the action on lines similar to action recently railways .progress, and so we have much taken in New Sou th Wales. In that pleasure in supporting the measure. State a report-known as the Ebasco The Hon. R. W. MAY {Gippsland report-which was made by an outside Province) .-This is a Bill of the type committee, was submitted to the New that comes before the House period­ South Wales Government. That report ically; it is very necessary in the indicated that for an outlay of interests of the finances of the Railway £67 ,000,000, spread over a .period of Department. I believe the railway five years, savings amounting to system of this State provides a £11,000,000 a year could be made in reasonable service insofar as the trans­ the New South Wales transport system, portation of freight is concerned. and in the railways alone a saving of From a perusal of the report of the £9,'500,000 could be made. Railways Commissioners for the year The work required to be done during 1956-57 I have gleaned some interesting the next twelve months does not fit in information. For the .past year, the with future requirements of railway total passenger train mileage was development in this State. The rail­ 4, 730,000 in the country and 8,290,000 in ways have played a big part in the the suburbs. Passenger earnings were development of Victoria over the past £3,717,000 in the country and £7,647,000 50 years or more, and it may be assumed in the suburbs. A total of 5,1'50,000 they will continue to do so. I travel passengers was carried in the country approximately 18,000 miles a year by and 162,255,000 in the suburbs. The ran and am a firm believer that rail average distance travelled per passenger travel is an excellent means of trans­ was 84.95 miles in the country and 8.75 port. I commend the Railways Com­ miles in the suburbs. The average earn­ missioners on some trains in this State. ings per passenger were 14s. 5id. in the I frequently travel on the Overland country and 11.3d. in the suburbs. The express between Melbourne and Adelaide average earnings per passenger mile and can candidly say that in many were 2.04d. in the country and 1.30d. in respects it compares favourably with the suburbs. The earnings from the other interstate expresses, including transportation of goods and livestock even the transcontinental express that were £22,110,000-a reduction of operates between Port Pirie and Kal­ £124,000 on the previous financial goorlie. However, in this State there period. The quantity of goods and live­ are many antiquated wooden carriages stock carried amounted to 9,380,000 which are far from comfortable and in tons-a reduction of 220,000 tons as which passengers-particularly those compared with the ·previous year. who travel between Ballarat and Mel­ Those f.acts indicate that the Depart­ bourne in the early morning or late at ment is facing serious competition and night-practically freeze. Moreover, that an effort must be made to attract the permanent way on the Ballarat line customers back to the railways as a is not all that it might be, and means of passenger travel and of passengers have considerable difficulty transportation for goods. The Commis­ in reading newspapers because of the sioners' report reveals further that roughness of the ride. At the appro­ allowing for the Olympic Games and priate time, I should like the Minister Royal Show traffic, 434,000 fewer coun­ of Transport to explain a remark in try passengers and 1,131,000 -fewer his second-reading speech to the effect suburban passengers were carried during that, in connexion with the standard the year 1956-57 than during the previ­ gauge line from Melbourne to Albury, ous financial .period. interest would not be charged to the Recent press reports indicate that Railway Department. because of adverse seasonal conditions there will probably be a comparatively Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! shall explain small wheat harvest this year and that that aspect. the quantity of other primary produce 3544 Railway Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. will also be reduced somewhat. If the I was agreeably pleased to hear Mr. reasoning of some people who maintain May say that he favoured the railways that a loss is incurred by the railways as a means of transport, because, in on the carriage of primary produce were the past, members of the Country- party carded to .Us logical conclusion, it would have not been enthusiastic about the ·be reasonable to assume that if a smaller service provided by the railways. They tonnage was carried there would be a have expected the community to main­ corresponding improvement in railway tain the .system while at the same time :finances, but I, of course, could not they have claimed that many country subscribe to that view because, in actual residents have the right to use other fa.ct, country freights do show a profit. services. Nevertheless, in the over-all picture, a The Hon. D. WALTERS.-Do you loss must be incurre.d in other avenues J. of raHway operations. not claim that right in the city, too? The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-If the I have always enjoyed railway travel, tram is nearer than the train, I use it. and. I do so nowadays more particularly If I am some distance from a tramline because of the congestion of road or a railway station I use a bus. How­ traffic and the better facilities being ever, in many country towns that offered on the railways. However, have railway facilities one sees trucks there are some aspects of the service laden with primary produce that could that could be improved. On behalf of easily be transported by the railways. the Country party, I wish to say that There is a tendency to leave to the rail­ this is regarded as a most important ways the rough end of the work, such measure, and I commend it to the as the carriage of superphosphate, House. which road transport does not want to handle. The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash Province).-This Bill authorizes the The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-What is expenditure of £10,500,000 of public wrong with that? money. I agree that that sum will be The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN.-Noth­ well spent. There is one expression ing. It is indicative of the nation's that always persists in my mind with prosperity. I have seen large road respect to the railways, namely, the transports-I am not speaking of inter­ permanent way. The railways provide a state vehicles-cutting up our roads service that no other form of trans­ disgracefully, but that is a matter that portation can offer to the community. can be tackled in another way. Those I know that oft-times road services transports travel at high speed along capture the cream of the traffic. A few roads that are not wide enough to days ago, when travelling behind a road accommodate safely two or three transport loaded with cattle, I reflected vehicles abreast. The railways deserve that those animals could have travelled great credit ifor the service they render much more comfortably in railway on a State-wide basis, with a remarkable trucks than by road. For certain per­ degree of freedom from accidents. I ishable classes of produce, I concede am pleased that the Department intends that road transport has attained a to push ahead with its objective of degree of favour but, on the whole, the improving suburban train services. •shifting of vast multitudes of travellers Another aspect worthy of consideration and the transportation of huge quanti­ is that the railways not only render a ties of merchandise is a titanic task that service to the community in general ·but can be handled only by the railways. provide jobs for thousands of Austra­ Recently, the Minister of Transport was lians, and it is only right that those kind enough to write informing me that concerned should be assured of the transportation of goods to St. Kilda continuous employment. railway station would cease because of The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER the insufficiency of business offering. (Doutta Galla Province).-For some That is a reasonable excuse. years, representations have been made Railway Loan [5 DECEMBER) 1957.] Application Bill. 3545 to the Railway Department for im­ coal and ash handling equipment at proved services on the Essendon­ Geelong will be expended during the· Broadmeadows section of railway line. currency of this legislation, but I am The secretary of the Glenroy branch of concerned that so far no attempt has; the Australian Labour party has been made to push on with the supplied me with some revealing essental duplication of the railway statistics which emanated from the line between Newport and Geelong. Railway Department. During the year The original estimate for the project ending the 30th June, 1956, a total of was about £1,000,000, but only £10,000 1, 720,827 passengers was handled by is to be allocated to !it during the the Glenroy station through which 48 operation of this enactment. A few trains pass daily, while 1,874,462 pas­ years ago, the Railways Commissioners sengers were conveyed by 83 trains a planned to transfer gangs from the day through Essendon. Earlier in the Gippsland line duplication to the Gee­ year, the Minister of Transport re­ long line which, it was anticipated, ceived a deputation and visited Glenroy would be completed by the end of 1958. in connexion with this matter. The At that time the Commissioners also honorable gentleman is conscious of the anticipated that electrification of the tremendous growth of the Glenroy and line would be completed by 1959. Broadmeadows districts. I understand However, that is not as important as from the town clerk that the the duplication work. population has increased from 9,000 to From time to time I have made 40,000 in the last five years. The suggestions concerning the alteration transport services are so inadequate as and rearrangement of time-tables, but to cause great inconvenience. There is the Minister of Transport has not seen no tram service in the vicinity, and the fit to adopt them-nor have the Commis­ present bus services could not possibly sioners. The usual assertion is that handle the needs of the district. I note the traffic offering does not warrant the that provision is made in the schedule change. The transcript of recent pro­ for the sum of £26,000 to be spent on a ceedings before· the Transport Regula­ new railway station between Glenroy tion Board concerning applications and Broadmeadows. Already a new by two private bus companies station has been erected at Oak Park, operating in Geelong is rather interest­ between Pascoe Vale and Glenroy. ing. One operator initiated a service At a time when railway passenger to convey people from Geelong to traffic is decreasing at an alarming Melbourne and return to attend evening rate-to the extent of about 11,000,000 theatres. The other company applied in four or five years-the Department for a licence to enter this apparently should seriously consider providing ser­ attractive field, and the Railway vices where traffic is available. I Department entered an objection on the strongly urge the Minister to submit to ground that it could provide all the the Railway Department, the claims of facilities necessary by rearranging the district for a better service. time-tables. The Department did not The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON (South­ display any initiative in obtaining new western Province).-!, too, pay tribute business, but desired to take over from to the value to the community of our someone who had pioneered in this railway system, but I do not agree that field. Geelong is the gateway to the services should be curtailed. From Western District and there is great time to time the merits of other means scope for developing the railway services of transport are discussed. I believe that pass through it. I have no com­ that initiative should be displayed by plaints about the express trains the Railway Department in an effort to operating to Warrnambool and Port gain traffic and to stimulate the con­ Fairy, which are very good. The fidence of the people in its system. I present population of Geelong is 88,000 am gratified to note that it is expected and the city is growing rapidly. In that approximately half of the esti­ fact, many residents of Geelong travel mated cost of providing mechanical to and from Melbourne daily to work. '3546 . Railway Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill.

The cause of decentralization would be I trust it will not be necessary for advanced by providing an attractive many items on the programme of the rail service. A late train to Geelong Way and Works Branch to appear year suitable for persons attending theatres after year in railway loan application . departs from Flinders-street at 11.30 Bills for the reason that work has been p.m. It is about the worst "bone held in abeyance owing to lack of finance. shaker " that can be imagined. It is a source of great concern that Probably it is the oldest type of rail many railway workers are losing their car in service, and the most uncom­ employment. The railways have proved fortable. If the Minister of Transport a wonderful asset in the development of desires to expand the railway services, the State, and all members of the staff · he should examine this question. The have rendered splendid service. Many comfort of the travelling public is ·sections, including the traffic and goods important. A much better type of rail branches, work under extreme difficul­ motor, with better seats, is availabfo, ties. Some persons who urge that but the Department persists in using service should be given to the people these . old vehicles. This particular have not a proper appreciation of the train is well patronized, and has value to the State of the railways. If replaced the comfortable road coach more confidence can be- inspired in them, service formerly in operation. there will be an appreciable increase in revenue. I ask the Minister of Transport to re-examine some of these questions. It The Hon. D. L. ARNOTT (Western he genuinely wishes more customers Province).-Last year, when I spoke on to be attracted to the railways, he should the Railway Loan Application Bill, 1 explore the possibilities of better service expressed regret at the lack of con­ being given. Trains should run at times sideration granted to residents of to suit the convenience of the people. western Victoria in the matter of rail Until a trial is made, it cannot be said transport, and I do so again now. l that patronage would not be forthcom­ wish to place before the Minister of ing. Work has been carried out during Transport, in a reasonable manner, a the current financial year in North Gee­ problem relating to a railway siding at long. Sidings have been constructed and Milltown, which is about 11 miles lines laid to the new quay. The work is from Heywood, on the main line between proceeding well and, when completed, Portland and Hammon. It is the policy will facilitate the handling of :goods in of the Railways Commissioners, who the district. must be supported by the Government, to close many country sidings, and Everybody is pleased that a start is residents of Milltown are alarmed at a to be made on standardization of the proposal that this siding shall be treated gauge between Mangalore and Wodonga, similarly. In reply to a question I asked This work should be completed as soon in the House on this subject, the as possible, as bo~h the Commonwealth Minister stated- and the State will benefit. The cost Consideration is •being giv.en .to the of converting the line from Melbourne question of closing Milltown station as its retention does not appear to be justified to Wodonga is estimated at £12,000,000, having regard to the very light traffic of which the Commonwealth will con­ handled there Oess than two passengers tribute £8,500,000 and New South and one truck of goods a week for an average of £2 a week revenue in 1956-57) Wales and Victoria each £1,7·50,000. and the future cost of maintaining the The Commonwealth can well afford this facilities. expenditure. During a future election Assuming that statement to be correct campaign, doubtless Liberal party --I do not imply that the Minister candidates will endeavour to justify a presented an incorrect reply-the annual £200,000,000 Federal surplus by stating deficit incurred by the Department, that much work has been done for the which last year was nearly £5,000,000, States in standardizing the railway would not be affected by keeping this gauges. siding open. No expense is involved, The Hon. D. P. J. Ferguson. . Railway Loan [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Application Bill. 3547, with the exception of maintenance must use fast goods trains to cater for work. I have a petition, signed by 60 livestock. Otherwise, it would be more Jandowners in the district, which I intend convenient to have them transported by to submit to the Minister and the road. Railways Commissioners. On innumer­ I trust that when the Minister replies able occasions, the Minister has to my statement he will be able to assure requested primary producers to support the local residents that no action will be the railways, and these people do so. taken to close the Milltown siding for at They have informed me that last year least six months. Because of a deputa­ between 350 and 375 tons of super­ tion which waited on me, I realize that phosphate was unloaded at the station. the local people are much concerned. It Freight on this commodity is 30s. a ton, would be a source of satisfaction to them and I calculate that this traffic alone to know that this and other sidings would return £525 to the railways, or would remain open. In view of the huge £10 a week. The figures have been commitments entered into by the checked and supplied to me as Government regarding the development reliable. I feel sure that if the Minister of the harbor at Portland, the Railways investigates this question he will realize Commissioners have shown a lack of that there is no justification for closing wisdom in neglecting railway lines in the siding. It is unfortunate that in this area. In the near future, produce other parts of the Western District to be shipped from Portland will be car­ sidings have been closed; in this ried over these lines, and adequate ser­ instance, there is nothing to justify it. vices should be available. It is true that not many passengers embark at Milltown. Even if they did, For some unexplained reason, the lines the only place at which they could pur­ in this district are ·being sadly neglected. chase tickets would be Hamilton. I do So little maintenance work has been not know how any reliable record could carried out, that it would appear that be kept of the number of passengers the next move likely to be made by who entrain at Milltown. Nobody is em­ the Minister would be the introduction of ployed there. The Department merely a Bill authorizing the dismantling of the leaves trucks there, and their con­ line between Hamilton and Horsham. It, tents are unloaded by the landowners. too, has been neglected. Practically no Extensive land development is taking provision has been made for its mainten­ place in the locality, and deliveries of ance, and several sidings have been superphosphate are likely to double. closed. Recently the member for Mallee Probably, the 'Minister will say that in the House of Representatives, Mr. superphosphate is carried at a loss, but Turnbull, who is a personal friend of if none was delivered in outback areas, mine and an old school mate, raised the there would not be any livestock, fat question of a railway link between Quyen stock, wool and other primary produce and Patchewollock to enable goods to be to be transported to Newmarket and transported from Mildura to Portland elsewhere. and shipped from there. No matter On this line, a goods train is being where a railway line starts in Victoria it ultimately finishes in Melbourne! ' hauled by one of the old coal-burning engines. At times, the train has had to In view of the development of our leave half the load behind. It has been outer areas and further land settlement necessary to transport half of it to Mill­ it is most imperative that the Govern~ town, leave the trucks on the loop, and ment should adopt a more realistic atti­ return for the other half. This has tude. Last year, I said that western happened quite recently, and arises Victoria had received only the crumbs from the fact that a full load is too of the £11,000,000 expenditure. This much for the present engme to year, it has not even got the crumbs. pull. I realize that diesel-electric Practically nothing will be spent in that locomotives have not been readily area. A leading article in the West available in the past, but if the Depart­ Wimmera Mail points out that western ment wishes to retain its business it Victoria has again missed out so far as 3548 Railway Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill. railway expenditure is concerned and would have to 'follow the roads. It was that assistance is being handed out to an act of stupidity for ·the Railways the metropolitan area, Gippsland, and Commissioners to oppose such an appli­ elsewhere. This newspaper has a wide cation, and their action shows how circulation and was adjudged to be the ridiculous their policy is. When the leading provincial newspaper in Victoria. Commissioners visit country areas, they travel in a special train fitted with all Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! handed out conveniences. If they wish to under­ the prize: stand the difficulties under which The Hon. D. L~ ARNOTT.-! am glad country people travel, they should. travel to hear that. The proprietors certainly by the ordinary services. deserved it. I believe the Minister of The Hon. D. J. WALTERS.-It would Transport should al.so take notice of take them about two years to get around what the Horsham Times has to say the State. about his policy. After his visit to that The Hon. D. L. ARNOTT.-That is town and his remarks that the people nonsense. In that way they would learn would not travel on the railways even how difficult it is for country people to if they were given free facilities, that travel by raH. On ·another occasion, paper stated in a leading article that arrangements were made for the Com­ the Minister's statement was extremely missioners to meet a deputation in one chHd~sh. I think it was also a reflection nf our northern towns, but the Commis­ on the electors in country areas. I con­ sioners' train passed through half an sider that the way to attract passengers hour before the time for which the and freight to the railways is to reduce deputation was arranged. I hope the charges. I know that the Minister will Minister of Transport will give me an say that on certain days a few shillings assurance that the siding to which I can be saved on ea'Ch trip, but how many have referred will not be closed without people in the country can select the days his consent. on which to travel? If it is good busi­ The motion was agreed to. ness to· reduce rates on two days a week, why not reduce them on all days? The Bill was read a second time and Speaking purely as an observer, I believe committed. that since the increase in suburban Clause 1 was agreed to. fares many former passengers have been Clause 2 (Issue and application of driven ·from the railways ·and are using money from Loan Fund for Tailway all types of vehicles in which to carry purposes). friends and neighbours into the city. Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of To give the House some idea of the Transport).-In view of the heavy pro­ ridiculous attitude of the 'Railways Com­ gramme before us, I do not wish to missioners, I shaU refer to happenings draw a spate of speeches from honor­ on the Casterton-Merino line. Casterton able members, but I feel that I should is an important town in western Vic­ answer some of the points that have toria. A diesel rail-motor service was been raised. I can assure Mr. Arnott cancelled and, despite protest meetings that the Milltown matter will be by the ·people concerned, it was not re­ examined. He has asked what does it store.a. Ansett's then offered to provide matter if £20 ·or £30 can be saved in a road transport service, but the rail­ maintenance expenses when the railways ways opposed the application to the are losing £'5,000,000 a year. IHowever, Transport Regulation Board. That is a that is the attitude of people throughout ridiculous state of affairs. the State, and when all these small Sir ARTHUR w ARNER.---.:Exactly the losses are added together one ultimately same route was not involved. arrives at the complete deficit. I do not think · the -railways can make a profit, The Hon. D. L. ARNOTT.-Certainly. but there seems to be a limit to the Ansett's would not operate over the same amount of money which should be raised route. They could not possibly drive from taxpayers to keep opera ting ser­ their buses along the railway line, and vices that are used only occasionally. Railway Loan [5 DECEMBER, 19'57.] Application Bill. 3549

If residents of the districts concerned that adequate wheat trucks are avail­ want the service they will use it, and able, many of which are idle for several if they do not want it they will not months of the year; stations and sidings patronize it. If a service is not used, have to be maintained; and employees the railways cannot afford to maintain are not sacked when the wheat !harvest it. That policy has been upheld by is completed. A large percentage of Labour transport Ministers in Western railway expenditure is incurred before Australia and in New South Wales, and the wheat is harvested, and if the rail­ also by past Ministers in this State. I ways do not get the traffic they make think it is a wise policy. even bigger losses. As Mr. May pointed out, some cargo was lost last year, but The Hon. D. L. ARNOTT.-No losses not as much as was anticipated, as some are being incurred at the siding. additional tonnage was obtained by cut­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! do not ting rates. I have sent a number of mem­ wish to enter into an argument on that bers lists of the freight rates that have matter, but I shall be pleased to give been set in an effo~t to keep up the Mr. Arnott details of how much i1t costs tonnage carried by the railways during to stop a train, shunt H into a siding, this freedom of road haulage under the and so on, if he cares to have them. provisions of section 92 of the Constitu­ He will be surprised at the sum in­ tion. Had steps not been taken to volved. Assuming, for the purpose of reduce freights, the losses during this discussion, that Mr. Arnott's figures are period would have been very much correct and those ·of the railways wrong, greater. If honorable members read the a total of 350 tons of superphosphate Ebasco report and my second-reading is hauled to the siding, but no return speech, they will find that the two are traffic is offered to the railways. People almost identical. The only difference who are content to have their superphos­ is that my remarks do not cost £150,000. phate hauled at 2d. a ton mile will There is nothing in the Ebasco report not send their potatoes to market by that is not well known to the Railways rail. Some two or three years ago, Commissioners and which has not been when that was obligatory, a fantastic dealt with in this House by me. In regard quantity of potatoes was hauled from to freights and fares, the report states the Western District. To-day, the that 80 per cent. of the people in coun­ traffic is negligible. There might be all try districts and 70 per cent. in the sorts of reasons for it and I am not metropolitan area have motor cars at criticizing anybody; I am merely stating their disposal. It costs 8d. a mile to run cold, hard facts. a motor car and only 2d. a mile to ride on a train. The suggestion that twice as So far as Mr. Ferguson's remarks many people would use trains and trams are concerned, I remember that he did if the fares were reduced to Hd. a mile make a suggestion that the morning is not supported by the report or by ex­ time-table on the Geelong line should perience in other countries. be changed. This matter has been examined on three occasions and two The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-Those figures different .persons have reported on it. are not quite fair, as a motor car fre­ The findings are against the proposal, quently conveys one or more persons. but if Mr. Ferguson wishes to have it Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-That is so. re-examined, I shall be pleased to meet his wishes. To ensure that a perfectly The Hon. A. R. MANSELL.-In the independent examination is made, I am country, people have to travel consider­ prepared to put another man on the job. able distances to catch a train. Mr. May made a .point which, I regret Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! agree to say, is not true. The cartage of wheat that a car is more convenient than a is not particularly profitable to the rail­ train. The people of this State are for­ ways. The Department has to main­ tunate that they have sufficient wealth tain all lines in the Wimmera for twelve to be able to run motor cars. A gentle­ months of the year; it has to ensure man from South Africa said that he 3550 Railway Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill.

could run trains at a profit. Doubt­ bears interest, and the amount involved less, if wages in this State were 5s. a is approximately £3,000,000 ' a year. day and few people owned motor cars, Prior to this Government coming into the railways would pay. office, that interest was charged to the taxpayer and not to the Railway De­ The Hon. J. J. JoNEs.-The Common­ partment. It is now charged to the wealth railways .pay. Department. If the old system of Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-The Com­ accounting were used, the accumulated monwealth :railiways get their loan losses over the last two years would be money interest free and engage in long £4,000,000 instead of £10,000,000. haulages in areas where there is little competition. Mr. J. J. Jones referred to I believe that the true position should finance. Assuming that the annual be faced in regard to railway finances. I capital allocaticon is about £8,000,000, have recommended to the Premier that in fifteen months the requirement 'is in the next Budget he should show fig­ £10,000,000, and my second-reading ures regarding the concessions which are speech indicated that approximately made to various people. The Australian £11,000,000 is being applied for this Railways Union has justifiably written purpose. Holiday pay was very much to me on this subject. The concession to in arrears when this Government took decentralized industry is £2,000,000 a office, and an effort has !been made to year, and I th'ink that should be a overcome the lag. Moreover, long ser­ charge to the decentralized industry and vice leave provisions have recently been not to transport. Other concessions are granted, and the Government is at­ granted to students and to nurses in tempting to catch up the arrears over a training, which should be a charge period of four years. against the Education Department and the Department of Health. If that It is expected that the capital expen­ action were taken the true facts would diture on the unification of the gauge be obtained, the Railway Department will be £350,000 a year for four years, could be debited with the correct and that that work will not seriously interest, and it could be deter.mined affect the capital works programme. whether the loss incurred was a proper The congestion of traffic at Glenroy one for the services given. I believe that referred to by Mr. Slater is caused partly economies could be made and :benefits by interstate traffic using the line. That given if those activities which obstruct problem may be solved in .part when the the railways from giving good service-­ unification is completed because . an for example, the creating of stops which attempt is being made to use that line are not really necessary-could be for suburban traffic only. eliminated. The Hon. J. J. JONES.-Has the Minis­ ter any further information in regard The clause was agreed to, as were the remaining clauses. to interest? Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-There has Schedule. been considerable argument on this su:l:;>­ ject. The first point -is that since 1950 The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON (South~ approximately £4,000,000 a year has Western Province).-! ask the Minister been set aside in the Railway Renewals of Transport to examine thoroughly and Replacements Fund, but no interest the proposal to duplicate the railway has been charged by the State to the line from Newport to Geelong in an railways fur that money. In other endeavour to ascertain what can be words, the interest is borne by the tax­ done. I am quite certain that if payers generally. Another interest bill something can be achieved in that is incurred for railway finances which regard the patronage of the railways have not been written off. About will increase. In addition, it will assist £30,000,000 was written off at one stage, to develop the service in the .Western but the portion which was not written off District. State Savings Bank (5 DECEMBER} 1957.J (Amendment) Bill. 3551

Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of STATE SAVINGS BANK Transport).-! undertake to do that. I (AMENDMENT) BILL. believe that duplication of the automatic The debate (adjourned from signalling equipment is involved. December 3) on the motion of Sir The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN (Mel­ Arthur Warner (Minister of Transport) bourne West Province).-! should like for the second reading of this Bill .was the Minister of Transport to make some resumed. provision for municipalities that incur The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta additional expenditure in repairing Galla Province).-This is a most roads when grade separation and level important Bill, and I think its essence crossing work is being undertaken. is contained in the preamble to the The case I have in mind is at Footscray. notes the Minister used when submitting Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Is it a level his second-reading speech. It was crossing or a grade separation? stated that the Bill was designed to The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN.-It improve and extend the powers of the is a grade separation. bank by eliminating obsolete sections of the Act and by removing limitations Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of imposed by the Act which necessarily Transport).-There is a special Grade · restricted the powers of the Commis­ Separation Fund to which money is sioners and their ability to meet the allocated by the Country Roads Board challenge of rapidly changing circum­ and the Railway Department. That stances and conditions. fund is there for the purpose of aiding municipalities in the way suggested by I do not quarrel with that statement, Mr. Machin. If the Footscray City. but I shall discuss the inadequacies of Council considers that the work is not the proposals in the Bill. It is import­ being carried out thoroughly, it should ant to look at the report of the State make representations to the organization Savings Bank, which is a most illumin­ that deals with grade separation. ating document. Let me say to my friends opposite, for the moment for­ The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN (Mel­ getting a word that is frequently bourne West Province).-La.st year I bandied across the House--" Socialism" was informed that certain alterations -that there are distinctive social and improvements would be made to the elements in the structure and function­ Tottenham railway station. I should ing of the State Savings Bank. From like an assurance that that work will be its beginning, this institution has been 'Carried out this year. fortified by the guarantee of the State Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of of Victoria. Transport).-! am not in a position to Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-It is not much give a definite assurance or undertak­ good under the uniform taxation scheme. ing, but from memory I understand that certain work is to be carried out The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-! at the station mentioned. think the assets of the State of Victoria are worth more than the assets of the The Hon. BUCKLEY MACHIN.-Sewer­ State Savings Bank, which are only age facilities are available less than 100 a little more than £300,000,000. When feet from the station, and I suggest we look at the dispersal of those funds, that the necessary connexions be made. we see an interesting picture. How has Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-If Mr. the £300,000,000 that the bank has had Machin writes me a letter setting out at its disposal been applied? the details, I shall ex·amine the matter. Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Too much has The schedule was agreed to. gone to the Commonwealth Government. The Bill was reported to the House The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-The without amendment, and passed through Minister anticipated my next remark. its remaining stages. No less than £108,000,000 has been made 3552 State Savings Bank [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. available to the Commonwealth Govern­ The Hon. C. S. GAWITH.-Socialized ment for loan purposes, and capitalism! £76,000,000 has been made available to The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-That Victorian utilities. That was a most is a new term from Mr. Gawith, and it important contribution to the function­ will probably rank with the definitions ing of vital State instrumentalities. when we are preparing a new political Then, £50,000,000 has been applied dictionary. What surprises those of us against mortgage loans under the Credit who take a deep interest in these State Foncier principle; and £41,000,000 enterprises is this: There has come into remains as the liquid funds of the bank. this field of competition in recent years Like all other banks, the State Savings the private banking interests of Austra­ Bank has subs tan tiaUy written down the lia. There has been an extraordinary assets of its buildings, and about development in the .structure of the £1,500,000 represents the tangible assets private banks by mergers, which of the bank. Among the activities of have reduced the number of these banks the bank is the undertaking of its own from 30 at the beginning of the century insurance. That has a strong social to seven or eight at the present time. In element in it. that process we see an immense Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! think you concentration of wealth and power. can add the "i·sm" with that. That is demonstrated by the fact The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-! that last year the deposits of the thank the Minister for his assistance. associated trading banks of Austra­ The results of the bank's insurance lia amounted to £1,600,000,000; ·activities are cited on page 7 of the last their advances against those deposits report. I shall not deal in detail with . represented £700,000,000 or £800,000,000, the matter of the recoverage of policies the ratio being 58 per cent. of advances and premium income, but the profit against deposits. One would have made last year under the insurance thought, with the growing strength of scheme was almost £70,000. That was the merged trading banks of Australia, not a bad effort for a State that they would have been prepared to instrumentality. leave to State savings banks and the The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-The bank Commonwealth Savings Bank the sphere was not getting any hire-purchase kick­ of activity that they have occupied ex­ backs from the insurance scheme. clusively. But they have come into this The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-That field as competitors, and I am not is so. Of that sum, £50,000 was trans­ questioning their right to do so. ferred to the general reserve of the The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.-You savings bank department, building up believe in competition? its strength all the time, leaving a The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-Yes, balance of £418,000 in the insurance and that is why I wish to see the State fund of the bank. I repeat that that Savings Bank coming into active and was not a bad effort. aggressive competition with the trading Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-What about banks in Victoria. I am led to believe workers' compensation payments? that the Commissioners of the bank The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-! were favourable to the fullest degree of will discuss that matter at a more trading facilities, but the Government appropriate time. At present, I has not been prepared to give them am examining the Bill before the House. any right to trade actively against the As to the Commonwealth Savings Bank, great banking interests of Australia. its profits for last year were about It hesitates to do so because those £760,000. Of that sum, £290,000 went interests are friendly with the to the National Debt Redemption Fund, Government's party. That was demon­ and £290,000 to the reserve of the bank. strated by their counterparts in They are not bad illustrations of some Canberra when they attempted to socialistic enterprises or efforts in the throttle the Commonwealth Bank at community. the behest of the private banks. State Savings Bank [5 DECEMBER, 1957]. (Amendment) Bill. 3553

Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Your party gentleman represents favour competition wants to nationalize the banks. with no restraints or controls. This State institution has been most generous The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-The to Victorian instrumentalities, to the Minister of Transport knows as well as co-operative housing society movement, I do that, in the light of Privy Council and to a great number of deserving decisions, it is impossible to nationalize borrowers through its Credit Fancier the banking institutions of Australia. system, but when an opportunity is Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-It has been afforded it to come into active com­ part of the policy of your party to do petition with the private trading banks, that. this Government says, " Hands off the The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-It is private trading banks." all very well for the Minister to make Although the Government had the that criticism, but it is impossible opportunity of bringing forward a to do that as the law now stands. The worth-while measure, it has submitted a Commissioners sought to have their proposal that is half-baked and that functions and powers enlarged. I do could not possibly meet the challenge of not suggest that the whole of the de­ modern times, modern conditions and positors' funds should be made avail­ modern circumstances. If there is justi­ able. for general trading purposes, but fication for the savings banks coming I believe this bank should be given the into this field, surely it lies in facility of open trading in competition the fact that the trading banks with the private trading banks. I sug­ have come into the field of the State gest the process should be a gradual one. Savings Bank. If that was proper for It is obvious that the bank could not the trading banks, surely it is equally open its doors to every borrower in proper and equitable :for the State Sav­ Victoria, and say, " We are going to ings Bank-the people's bank-to meet make ample funds available to you." them on the field of competition. That That would be a physical impossibility, has not been done, and that is the serious and I envisage the bank starting its objection I have to the proposals con­ operations in a small way like the Com­ tained in this Bill. Apart from that as­ monwealth Bank did. It gradually pect, this is purely a machinery measure grew in strength until now it has be­ which .provides certain facilities for come the most powerful instrument of cheque accounts. It does not in any public finance in Australia. sense permit the State Savings Bank to Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-It does not enter the field which the trading banks pay tax on its hire-purchase business. have so ruthlessly invaded. We suggest that, with equal ruthlessness, the The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-! people's bank should enter into competi­ had some observations to make on the tion with the trading banks of this hire-purchase question, but I do not want State. to make them now. The trading banks have entered that field. Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-What powers Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-So has the will the State Savings Bank lack after this Bill has been passed? Commonwealth Bank. The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-But The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.­ only to a limited degree. It has not been given the general powers of the trading banks at Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-It refuses to all. Its powers have been ex­ pay the taxation that other people must tended merely to enable depositors to pay. use cheque accounts. The bank has no The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-The power to make advances on general Minister of Transport is drawing a red trading accounts. It is not intended by herring across the trail. He is not the Government to invest that power in meeting the criticism that I am the bank. Surely, it was the Govern­ directing against the proposal of the ment's bounden duty, if it believes in the Government. The people the honorable stability and in the solvency of its own 3554 State Savings Bank [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

State institution, which has been func­ -of its surplus funds with the Common­ tioning for more than 100 years, to have wealth Bank. In pre-war days, this amassed all the strength of the State money would have been used for behind the State Savings Bank and providing overdrafts and advances for given it the opportunities of meeting developmental purposes. While we may competition from the invasion of the criticize one side, let us be frank and trading banks in this field. study the whole structure of banking The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE ('North­ to-day. Between what has been taken Eastern Province).-! support the over by the Commonwealth and what measure. As stated by the Minister and has been taken over by the banks Mr. Slater, this is principally a themselves in hire-purchase, there must machinery Bill, which enables the State be very little left for the person who Savings Bank to provide certain facilities desires money for developmental works. in competition with the trading banks Those of us who have attempted to and with the Commonwealth Savings obtain loans from the banks for this Bank. It enables the Victorian bank to purpose appreciate how d~fficult it is meet the ever-changing conditions of the to obtain assistance. Generally, if banking world. The principles involved in a person wishes to purchase a the Bill are such that, in future, the new motor car, tractor or some State Savings Bank will have more lati­ other .piece of machinery, it must be tude in carrying out its functions. It acquired by means of a hire-purchase authorizes the bank to establish agencies transaction, which means that instead in other States, to grant cheque facili­ of his paying interest at the rate of 5 ties, and so on. Mr. Slater said a great per cent.-this would apply to a bank deal about the limitations which this overdraft-interest at the rate of 20 Bill places on the State Savings Bank I per cent. must be met. The trading do not wish to argue that the State Sav­ banks entered the savings bank field ings Bank has full powers under this because there was a ready availability measure, but I consider that the of money there. If the State Savings bank has been set up for the purpose of Bank were permitted to enter the providing a safe and guaranteed system trading bank field as suggested by Mr. of banking for the small depositors of Slater, could we expect the present the State. Over the years, large re­ guarantees to be continued? serves have :been built up by the ,pay­ The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-Why ments into the bank by many people and should not the guarantee continue? organizations, and this has resulted in the institution becoming one of the instru­ The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-! mentalities of the State which provides am merely seeking information. If finance for developmental purposes. It there was a slump in the banking has been said that the Commissioners sphere, as occurred in the past, we have invested also in Commonwealth could find ourselves in the position that bonds. The Minister used the ex.pres­ the guarantee would not be worth a sion "over generous" when dealing with great deal. that aspect. However, I think the honor­ The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-That able gentleman would find that most of could apply to co-operative housing the money invested in Commonwealth societies as well. bonds was so invested when Australia The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-That was engaged in a major conflict. is so; I have voiced that opinion on Criticism has been made of the trad­ many occasions in the past, particu­ ing banks entering the savings bank larly when measures relating to housing field, but probably they have been forced, schemes have been introduced. I by the system under which the Common­ consider that the guarantees would be wealth Bank controls the surplus funds worth very little if money once again of trading banks, to act in that manner. became short. It would not be possible It is prescribed in the Commonwealth to realize on the State's assets. For Banking Act that the trading banks example, we could not sell the railways, must deposit ! per cent.-lOs. per cent. schools, or hospitals, nor could we raise State Savings Bank [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3555 one penny against them. Of course, the day as they find .their previous theories trading banks are not guaranteed by are not borne out :by ·actual happenings. the Commonwealth or State Govern­ In the last 40 years, the :banking ments and, therefore, persons investing structure has been entirely changed. in that field must take some risk. On the The Minister of Transport suggests other hand, investors in the State that the guarantee of the State Savings Savings Bank have the guarantee of the Bank would not be worth anything. It State Government-whether that is is not a fact that private trading banks worth much, I do not know. have available vast ·surplus funds. In Sir ARTHUR wARNER.-lt is pretty banking .practice under certain circum­ good. stances, with Government assistance, there is a margin of safety in that for The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-So every £100 placed in their safe keeping far I have been prepared to "take a private trading banks have to create so chance" on that. However, if the much credit, and make loans to State Savings Bank is to be permitted people secure in the knowledge that to enter the trading bank field, as everyone will not want his money advocated by Mr. Slater, would the returned at the same time. What is Government be prepared to continue its paid out in cheques is usually returned guarantee? I should like to be sure in some other way. The whole ·banking where the proposal, if implemented, system i·s based on the circulation of would lead us. I am satisfied that this money in the community. None of these Bill will assist the State Savings Bank banks have the surplus funds which to meet the competition which it is they appear to have. The western world encountering from the trading banks. would not have left the eastern world so Members of the Country party support far behind if it had not been for the the Bill, knowing that in future, under fact that we developed what has proved its charter, the bank will be able to meet in actual practice to be a very risky competition and, at the same time, by banking practice over the years. Even amendment of the' provisions relating private banks, when they get into diffi­ to the investment of money by the culties, have to be rescued by the State. bank, more finance will be made avail­ There have been 93 total monetary able for the development of Victoria. collapses throughout America in its short The provision of facilities enabling history whilst there has been establish­ persons to open cheque accounts will be ing what is called to-day " an honest an improvement, and will help the greenback." Private trading banks are State Savings Bank of Victoria to meet guaranteed by the State or the Common­ the challenge put out by .private trading wealth whether they like it or not, and banks. if they are in difficulties-as even the The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (\Melbourne Bank of England has found itself in­ North Province).-My party supports the Government concerned has to come this Bill because it will assist the State to their assistance and see that they do Savings Bank of Victoria partially to not fail. M the Minister of Transport meet the situation it finds itself in with and Mr. Swinburne doubt my word, they private trading banks entering into com­ have only to look at a £1 note. petition, and also because of the general Banking !business is based on the development of credit facilities of the currency of the nation, and if the State. I join with Mr. Slater in his Commonwealth withdrew the currency criticism that this measure could have the banks would have to devise some gone further and given the State Savings other means by which to .conduct their Bank even greater facilities to enter businesses. Owing to the fact that suffi­ into competition with trading banks. In cient gold and :silver could not be pro­ the field of bank credit and monetary duced . to provide currency and the thinking, it is easy for one person to development necessary in times of war, say that he is correct and someone else as in the years 1914-18, currency with is wrong. Even leading economists any basis of intrinsic value was aban­ change their views almost from day to doned. To-day we have notes which are 3556 Swte Savings Bank [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill. legal tender in the Commonwealth and banks. Why should private trading all territories under the control of the banks enjoy the ri'ght to go into the Commonwealth, and which are signed more lucrative forms of business when by the Secretary to the Treasury and by the State Savings Bank is denied that the Governor of the Commonwealth right? The Minister of Transport Bank. On those, all banking business is bitterly complained about this principle built, so all banks are fundamentally in regard to transport when he said dependent on the circulation of the that road transport operators carry currency of the nation. By deliberate out the most lucrative forms of Government policy that circulation can business while the railways have to be interfered wi'th tremendously. A carry goods that do not pay. The Government that wanted to socialize position is not quite the same, because the hanks of this country, or the credit in the banking business almost any institutions, be they private or activity pays. If the State Savings Government sponsored, if it were pre­ Bank were enabled to compete fully pared to ignore the economic security with private trading banks, it of the State, could quite easily could return to the community, wipe out of existence every private as the Commonwealth Bank does, a trading bank simply by manipulat­ great deal of the profits in order to make ing the currency issued. 1Even at the interest and sinking fund payments and present time, nations are being destroyed the like, as mentioned by Mr. Slater. because Governments are trying to solve My party will vote for this Bill because their economic problems without it proposes a step in the right direction establishing a balance between their although much more could have been country's productivity and the amount done. of currency issued; thus develops what The motion was agreed to. is known as inflation. That does not neces.sarily embarrass the banks be­ The Bill was read a second time and cause of the enormous impetus in the committed. circulation of currency, and banks Clause 1 was agreed to. prosper in such times. If currency ·Clause 2 (Constitution of Commis­ were deflated, credit institutions would sioners of the State Savings Bank of find, as in the 1930's, that the whole Victoria). system did not work any more and that, whether socialized or not, they Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of were at the mercy of Governments. Transport).-Because there has possibly been some misunderstanding as to the I do not wish to deal with the proposals contained in the Bill, I wish economic aspects of banking in speak­ to make certain explanations. The com­ ing to this measure, but I make petition with which the ibank was faced those remarks because of what has was that other banks with associated already been said and doubts which savings departments were granting over­ have been cast upon the security of a drafts to clients on the security of their State guaranteed bank. I agree with· savings bank deposits. The intention of Mr. Swinburne that the assets of the the Government is to enable the State State cannot be sold to meet a bank­ Savings Bank to operate a trading de­ ing situation, but that does not mean partment for the purpose of lending the guarantee of a State bank is any money against the security of savings less secure than the guarantee of any deposits. Such overdraft accounts could private trading bank. Indeed, it is be operated by cheque. even more secure because the State has the right to try to balance its Budget The Hon. R. R. RAWSON.-Would by taxation, which is a method not interest be payable on the cheque open to private trading banks. accounts? This measure, in my opinion, could Sir ARTHUR WARNER-Interest have gone further to allow the State might well be payable. Under the Bill, Savings Bank to enter into any field the Commissioners of the State Savings .of competition with the private trading Bank will be empowered to lend money The Hon. J. A. Little. &ate Savings Bank [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3557 ior any pur,pose. Thus the bank will 'f.hose organizations borrow money at be enabled to operate in much the rates up to 6~ per cent. per annum same manner as certain banks in Scot­ and lend it out under hire-·purchase land and the United States of America, terms. That is not the kind of money where the general principle is, in effect, that is put into savings :banks. If a that interest-probably not at a very person wishes to lend money for hire­ high rate-is calculated on ·the overdraft purchase dealings he does so at the limit rather than on the sum actually appropriate rates of interest; he does borrowed. I do not think it is good not lodge it in a savings bank account in principle for the State Savings Bank at a much lower rate of interest; such to use savings deposits for normal money, nf course, could be lent on only trading :purposes or for hire-purchase gilt-edged securities. business. Savings deposits are lodged with the bank at low rates of interest During its term of office, the Victorian and are let out on what ought to be Liberal Government has established two 100 per cent. guaranteed forms of separate banks. One is the Rural security. That is why the State Savings Financ~ Corporation, which is author­ Bank, in the main, lends only on ized to grant overdrafts in a trading Government securities, broad acres or manner. Recently, that organization property. Trading banks adopt a was empowered to undertake hire­ different procedure. Sometimes they purchase business, but savings deposits grant loans on no other security than have not been utilized for that purpose. the good name of the .person concerned. The Government has made funds avail­ Occasionally I have been granted an able to enable advances to be made overdraft without lodging any security under hire-purchase conditions where whatever. Trading banks frequently circumstances justify that procedure. If lend upon shares, on reversionary the ·person requiring financial accom­ rights under wills, and all sorts of modation cannot obtain a loan from the curious forms of security. Rural Finance Coiiporation, he may seek it from the Commonwealth Bank and, The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-They will not failing that avenue, he may, if he so lend money on the security of a prop­ desires obtain a loan from private enter­ erty to enable a :person to buy a motor prise hire-purchase organizations which, car; they will, however, lend if the however, may charge him a higher rate motor car constitutes· the security. of interest than he would be called Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! am upon to pay to a Government controlled speaking not of the abuse of power institution. by some financial institutions but rather of what is provided for in the Bill. The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta It is improper for savings bank funds Galla Province) .-The Minister of to :be used in the same way as trading Transport stated that the State Savings bank funds-to be advanced 'On all sorts Bank was being empowered to set up a of securities. I repeat that the avenues trading department because of the in which savings bank deposits can be facilities provided in the Bill. However, invested are limited. The savings he reprobated that principle by saying department and the trading department that it was completely wrong for are two separate entities, and properly savings deposits to be lent for :trading so. If the trading department became pur.poses. The honorable gentleman bankrupt, the savings deposits could not cannot have it both ways. In my be availed of to meet the deficiency. second-reading speech, I expressed That is of legal significance. Savings strong disapproval of the !principle of deposits may not be used for hire­ the State Savings Bank opening purchase business. Accordingly, most its doors to all and sundry as of the trading banks that handle hire­ a general trading bank. I contemplated purchase transactions have established that the :bank would start in a small separate companies for the purpose and way, with a cautious, ·prudent policy, have invested money in them. I do not but at least it should offer some real say that I approve of that procedure. competition to rival organizations. 3558 Stare Savings Bank rcouNCIL.J (Amendment) Bill.

Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-There is no has a trading bank-the Rural Finance objection to that; that is being doI?-e. Corporation-which has power and The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-The authority to extend its activities if it Minister of Transport stated that it desires to do so. would be quite wrong for the bank to The clause was agreed to, as was lend the people's money. I agree that clause 3. it would be wrong to make a wholesale use of such money in trading activities, Clause 4, providing, inter alia- The principal Act as amended by any Act but this measure should represent the is hereby amended as follows:- first step in the development of an effec­ ...... tive trading bank, Which could make (h) For section 55 there shall be substi­ advances from the deposits it received. tuted the following section:- " 55. The Commissioners may at That is the opportunity that is being their discretion invest and lend lost. the funds of the State Savings Sir ARTHUR wARNER.-A separate Bank Department- bank has already been set up for that purpose. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ The Hon. WIILIAM SLA'DER.-The bourne North Province).-! move-­ That the following new paragraph be rural bank has limitations, in spite .added to proposed new section 55, as con­ of its usefulness, and does not com­ tained in paragraph (h)- pete with the private trading banks. ''(h) in the purchase of domestic ap­ The State Savings Bank could be en­ pliances, household furniture and· larged into a trading bank to do so. I other domestic articles for the pur­ poses of and in connexion with the would not advocate that hut for the letting of such appliances, furni­ actions of the private trading banks, ture and articles to depositors which have come into the savings bank under hire purchase agreements field, and now have savings deposits upon such terms and conditions as totalling about £6,000,000. the Commissioners think fit." Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Are you con­ Honorable members will recall the tending that the private trading banks noble efforts of our party and the are lending money on open account? Country party to place some ceiling on hire-purchase interest rates. Ap­ The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-No. parently we wasted our sweetness on the My argument is that, the trad­ desert air. As an alternative, we now ing banks having come into the savings propose to enable the State Savings field, it is proper that the State Savings Bank to give the hire-purchase pawn­ Bank should engage in trading bank brokers a little competition, just as the business. The argument is irrefutable. Chifley Government set up the Austra­ The Minister of Transport has admitted lian National Air Lines Commission to that there is a curious provision in the give Australian National Airways Pro­ Bill which confers on the State Savings prietary Limited-the then airline Bank Commissioners the right to engage monopoly-some competitfon. As a in trading activities. I think little re­ result, Australia now has one of the sort will .be had to that. best domestic airlines in the world. No Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of one would suggest, having regard to Transport).-The proposal is to give its record, that the State Savings Bank, the State Savings Bank power to do which has been noted for its conser­ what private trading banks are doing vatism, would go about this matter in with their money, and in relation a foolish way. Adoption of my pro­ to their savings bank business. We do posal would enable people to buy not intend to turn the State Savings articles on hire-purchase at fair rates Bank into a trading bank. If Mr. of interest, and there would be a conse­ Slater suggests there should be a sepa­ quent diminishing effect on interest rate trading bank, there might be some rates generally. The bank would be merit in it, but it would not be proper enabled to enter into hire-purchase to deal with that subject in a Bill relating transactions under the law. Some to the State Savings Bank. The State private banks have gone into the hire- State Savings Bank [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3559 purchase field in direct defiance of the city and behave like gentlemen, they Commonwealth Banking Act, with the are not tough money-lenders. It is connivance of the Commonwealth necessary to give the State Savings Government. As everyone knows, that Bank some teeth to enable it to give Government is in the pockets of the these vultures-these people who are private banks. Sub-section (1) of carrying on hire-purchase business section 8 of the Federal Act provides- against the law, but with the connivance The Governor-General shall, within of the Commonwealth Government­ seven days after the commencement of some competition. this Part, grant to each body corporate specified in the First Schedule an authority Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of to carry on banking business in Australia. Transport) .-The Government cannot A number of banks are set out in the accept the principle that State Savings schedule, including the National Bank, Bank deposits can be used for hire­ the English, Scottish, and Australian purchase business. In regard to the Bank, and so on. Hire-purchase is not other statements made by Mr. Galbally, banking business, but a form of I point out that the Commonwealth pawnbroking. Bank has entered into competition in Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Perhaps that this field. is why the banks do not deal in it. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-That is The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I shall not one of the banks referred to in resolve the doubts of honorable mem­ section 8. bers. Section 39 of the Commonwealth Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! am not Banking Act provides, inter alia- arguing that 1t is. I am pointing out (1) The Commonwealth Bank may, with that the Commonwealth Bank has the approval of the Treasurer, make already entered into competition with regulations- the so-called vultures and is refusing to ( a) making provision for and in relation pay taxes which are paid by all the to the control of rates of interest payable to or by banks, or to or by other vultures in this State. The other persons in the course of any Commonwealth Bank is using its pro­ banking business carried on by tected position in order to do so. them. Although the State has requested the Therefore, the Commonwealth Bank Commonwealth Bank to pay the appro­ fixes the rate of interest. If this is priate taxes, it has deliberately evaded banking business, the rates of interest that responsibility. are fixed by the Commonwealth Bank. The H!on. i'. M. THOMAS. - It is If it is not banking business, the banks not making the profits that the others have no power under section 8 to carry are. it on. I go further and say that in Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-The Com­ other respects the private banks of Aus­ monwealth Bank is making profits tralia are to-day deliberately evading because it obtains money cheaper, the provisions of the Commonwealth pays no income tax on profits, Banking Act, which provides that, and is repudiating what I regard as a before a bank can invest in any proper obligation to pay the same taxes securities listed on the Stock Exchange, as do other persons engaged in the same it must obtain the approval of the form of business. Commonwealth Treasurer. That would include Custom Credit Corporation and The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne some of the others, including Esanda North Province).-Members of my party Limited. support the amendment. Although there may be some merit in the argument of Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! presume the Minister of Transport that the State they must have obtained approval. Savings Bank funds should not properly The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I pre­ be used in the extension of hire-purchase sume nothing of the kind. Do not let business, I point out that the amend­ us be carried away by thinking that, ment includes the expression " upon because these money-lenders, the banks, such terms and conditions as the Com­ carry on in the best buildings in the missioners think fit." I could not -imagine 3560 State Savings Bank [COUNCIL.] (Amendment) Bill.

the Commissioners allowing a large must be taken to stem this activity. If proportion of ·their funds to be utilized the result can be achieved by empower­ in this way. ing the Commissioners of the State To illustrate the need for a Govern­ Savings Bank to enter this field and act ment savings bank to enter into this as they think fit, at least it will provide field of competition, I should like to competition that will force the private refer to a specific case which shows the banks to review the situation they are evils that creep into the general credit creating for their own !benefit. structure when trading banks form hire­ The amendment was negatived. purchase companies subsidiary to their The clause was agreed to, as were banking activities. A man who had an clauses 5 to 7. overdraft of more than £1,000, covered Clause 8- by registered mortgage on a property In paragraph (7) of the exemptions valued at £5,000, paid it off, but kept under the heading, "l. BILLS OF EXCHANGE about £200 i.n his cheque account for AND PROMISSORY NOTES," in the Third Schedule to the Stamps Act 1946 as convenience. He decided to buy a new amended by any Act after the words motor car, and wished to over-draw to " Savings Bank " there shall be inserted the the extent of £800. However, the bank, expression "(not being a cheque drawn by which held the deeds of his property, a depositor on an account in a Savings Bank unless such cheque is exempt under informed him it was not possible for another exemption in this Schedule"). the money to be lent on that security, and advised him to apply to the hire­ The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER purchase department. The bank did not (Doutta Galla Province) .-I invite choose the client, but chose the security members to vote against this clause, against which the money would be and, if it is negatived, I intend to pro­ advanced. The person concerned could pose two new clauses to follow clause 7. not borrow the money at bank rates on The effect of them will be to exempt his property, but could obtain it on a trade unions from the application of less tangible object, namely, the car, stamp· duty on cheques drawn on the under a hire-purchase agreement. State Savings Bank. Exemptions to the First Part of the Third Schedule of the If credit organizations subsidiary to Stamps Act 1946 include- banks are to be allowed to direct lending (8) Cheque drawn :by any officer of any into high interest channels, gradually so charitable institution or of any registered much of the spending power of the building society registered co-operative community will be siphoned off in high housing society or registered friendly interest rates that it will not be possible society on the banking account of any such institution or society. for people to purchase the products of modern industries, such as those of the I propose in my amendment to add to Minister of Transport. This is a long­ those exemptions cheques drawn by established banking principle. High trade unions. It is desired that unions rates of interest siphon off the :purchas­ which have deposited money with the ing power of the community. As the State Savings Bank and the Common­ process intensifies, the capacity of people wealth Savings Bank should be placed to spend money is so reduced ·that the in no worse position than organizations whole economy becomes depressed. somewhat kindred to them. Manufacture is then carried ·on at a false Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of rate to meet a market falsely stimulated Transport).-! see no particular objec­ by the amount of credit that becomes tion to the proposal, but I suggest that available at high rates of interest. As progress be reported so that I can study the surplus is taken off and more people it. pay their debts than can afford to pur­ The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne chase, an over-stimulated industry pro­ North Province).-! should like to be duces goods that nobody can buy. That assured that exemptions will apply to was the pattern of the 1930's. the ordinary withdrawal forms used by The Minister of Transport will appre­ depositors at the State Savings Bank. ciate the danger to the economy of the I desire to ensure that these forms can­ State· and of the Commonwealth. Steps not be described as cheques now that The Hon. J. A. Little. Fraser National (5 DECEMBER) 1957.J Park Bill. 3561

the legislation is to be altered to allow is something to distinguish your term of customers to open· cheque accounts. office; could we not name it 'Warner's wantonness' or 'Warner's folly'?" Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of Whatever thoughts might have gone Transport). - The Government con­ through the minds of other Ministers sidered that the State Savings Bank recalling their blunders, at least they ought to be subject to the same had the good taste to say to one of their taxes and disadvantages as the private colleagues, " Of course, you must have trading banks-that they should be on a your name perpetuated in an Act of par. Therefore, people drawing cheques Parliament. It is true that it is a slight upon the bank will have to pay the same departure 'from Parliamentary prac­ stamp duty as applies to cheques tice to introduce Bills to perpetuate the drawn upon a trading bank. The names of Ministers, but after all we ordinary withdrawal form, which is not have broken a good deal of fresh ground a cheque, will not be affected. in our term, particularly in the field of Progress was reported. finance. We feel that this should go before Parliament." So here is the Bill! FRASER NATIONAL PARK BILL. But that is not the whole of the The debate (adjourned from Decem­ sto•ry; there is more to come. With the ber 3) on the motion of Sir Arthur very kind offices of the Minister of Warner (Minister of Transport) for the Transport-I acknowledge his co­ second reading of this Bill was resumed. operation-I have before me official copyright map No. 357 of the iEildon The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ reservoir. There is a note on it to say bourne North Province).-It seems al­ that this map was prepared in collabora­ most a sacrilege to intrude on that poig­ tion with the State Rivers and Water nant little scene described by the Leader Supply Commission. On examining it, of the Government in this House when I see that without any reference to Par­ the departmental heads approached the liament-they have beaten us to the Honorary Minister (Mr. Fraser) and gun in honouring the Honorary Minister begged him to accept the name of Fraser -in bold type there is printed on the for the national park to be proclaimed at map "Fraser National Park." To what the Eildon reservoir. What a delightful lengths will departmental aggression go little scene it was when, blushing like in this Government? The idea a schoolgirl, he modestly said he would seems to be: Never mind about put the matter before his colleagues in Parliament; it is only a rubber stamp, the Cabinet! How refreshing it must as is the Minister of Water Supply. Yes, have been when he informed the Minis­ right alongside "Fraser National Park" ter of Transport and the Premier I see " Bolte Bay." It is a very that this honour had been pressed attractive looking bay. Then there is upon him. But what a nightmare it " Point Mibus " on the northern ex­ must have presented for the Premier! What thoughts must have scurried tremity, and the southern part is through his brain when he thought, " If bounded by "Point McCay." It Mr. Fraser is to get the . credit for seems to me that to-night we are wast­ Eildon, what position am I in? Sup­ ing our time considering this matter. posing Treasury officers come to me and The Commission has done its job only say, 'Mr. Treasurer, in your term of too well. Bureaucracy has established office we. have had three record deficits. itself under this Government. In all Could we not perpetuate them by nam­ seriousness, this map does reveal ing them, Bolte's Blunders ' "? What grave impropriety on the part of the thoughts must have crossed the mind State Rivers and Water Supply Com­ of the Minister of Transport, faced mission. Its action is a studied insult as he is with recurring defid ts in to Parliament. the railways! Suppose the chairman of Commissioners came up and, in a touch­ The Hon. D. J. W~TERS.-The Com­ ing little scene, said," Mr. Minister, here mission is a law unto itself in any case. 3562' Fraser National [COUNCIL.] Park Bill.

Tne Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am proclamation of the National Parks Act. glad that at last I have been able to I should like to know in what manner enlist the sympathy of Mr. Walters. I the boundaries of this area have been fear that under this Government the delineated. Did the National Parks Commission is a law unto itself. Authority recommend to the Govern­ The Hon. D. J. WALTERS.-lt always ment that it should be reserved as a has been, and will remain so until we national park? From some information change it. that has been given to me, it is apparent that the area was taken over by the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-We State Rivers and Water Supply Commis­ must not be frightened by the Commis­ sion and now that the Eildon reservoir sion. Parliament should be supreme. has been enlarged, resulting in the con­ Mr. Fraser would be the last one who struction, at a total cost of £3,000,000, would want to see his escutcheon blotted of a lake which holds six times as much in this way and have the suggestion water as is contained in Sydney Harbor, made that the Commission had made the State Rivers and Water Supply Com­ him look a perfect fool in the matter. mission has decided to transfer part of There is no haste to pass this Bill and its assets which are no longer of use to it. get it proclaimed before Christmas. I understand that it is to be compen­ Anybody buying a copy of the map I sated to the extent of £25,000 in consider­ have here can see the Minister's name ation for its surrender of the title to the on it. I suggest that Parliament should area to be proclaimed a national park. not pass this measure until Mr. East is The Commission agrees that that is a summoned to the Bar of the House and reasonable valuation of. the land, asked to explain how his Commission but it appears to be high if the land is came to prepare these maps. of no economic value. Of course, also involved is the ques­ The House should be informed of the tion of the waste of public money. circumstances relating to the creation It is pleasing to know that Mr. Fraser of this park. According to the notes has done great things, but we think it is circulated with the Bill, the members of not in accordance with Parliamentary the National Parks Authority and other traditions for Ministers. to have their persons interested in its development names placed in Acts of Parliament in visited the area. We h:a ve been assured this way. If Parliament associates itself that the area is suitable for develop­ with these matters, there must be a ment as a national park and that waste of public money. We are supposed indigenous trees and an under-storey to be the custodians of th~ public purse, of flowering native shrubs common to and everybody knows that it is pretty the district will be planted. Doubtless, empty at the moment. I suggest to the the State Rivers and Water Supply Minister of Transport that he owes it to Commission was pleased to get rid of Parliament not to proceed with this the land so that it will not be responsible beastly measure until proper inquiries in the future for the control of vermin have been made. Here is the map; I and other pests. I should like to know shall hand it around. whether the local municipal council and The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager). other bodies were consulted before -Do you wish that it be printed in the boundaries of the proposed park Hansard? were determined. It may be that 6,000 acres -is an excessive area and that The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I am 2,000 acres would suffice. The rest of obliged to you for the suggestion, Mr. the land could then be used for another President. To say the least, there has purpose. I understand that the local been grave discourtesy shown to municipalities were not given much Parliament. opportunity to express their opinions The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ in regard to boundaries. Western Province).-! am interested in The Government cannot take over this Bill, which seeks to establish the l1and for a national park without ena­ first national park to be set up since the bling legislation being enacted. It is Fras.er National [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Park Bill. 3563 the duty of Parliament to ensure that bridge could well have been called the the correct procedure is adopted and Cain bridge. Usually such projects are that the local people are .fully informed named after persons who have on what is happening. There are rendered a public service after they have strong rumours that this proce­ passed on. dure has not been followed in this ·instance. Because the National I do not agree with Mr. Byrnes that Parks Authority w:as created only the area may be too large. I consider recently, I think it is important that this to be the time when Parliament certain principles concerning the acqui­ should take steps to set aside large areas .sition of land for national parks should of land for public recreation purposes. be laid down to ensure that the While the area may appear to be too Authority adopts the correct procedure. large at present, I am sure that I should like more information from when our population increases further the Minister regarding the matters to that will not be the case. I agree with which I have referred. the foresight that has been shown in that regard. Many other countries The Hon. J. A. LITTLE ('Melbourne more densely populated than Australia North Province) .-This Bill does not have set aside large areas of land for appear to be extensive. Certain national parks for the benefit of the objectfons have been raised to clause people. I do not know this area any 7, which provides that the area shall be more than Mr. Byrnes does, but I do not known as the Fraser National Park. think any area in this country will be Moreover, it appears that there has too large to qe set aside for the purposes been some indiscretion in regard to the of a national park. The members of my printing of a map. I do not think Mr. party do not take ·objection to the Bill, Galbally really suggested that a serious although we deplore the indiscretion matter was involved. In this House, implied in the printing of the map. motions are moved repeatedly that a Bill be printed, and then within ten The Hon. P. v. FELTHAM.-The map minutes it is distributed to honorable was printed by Broadbent's. members. I presume the argument The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-! under­ could be advanced that it could be a waste of money in certain instances stand that it was printed with the in having the Bill printed beforehand authority of the Commission. Members because it may never reach the stage should be given a full explanation of of being read a second time. However, why the map was printed in the way if the Bills were not printed in advance, it was. the smooth working of this Parliament The moti.on was agreed to. could be seriously affected. Apparently somebody had to print a map so that the The Bill was read a second time and boundaries of the proposed park might committed. be defined. Clause l, providing, inter alia- The decision has been made, rightly <1> This Act may be cited as the Fraser National Park Act 1957 and shall be read or wrongly, to name the park after the and construed as one with the National Honorary Minister (Mr. Fraser) who Parks Act 1956 which Act and this Act has had a great deal to do with the may be cited together as the National Parks National Parks Authority. I do not Acts. object to . that procedure. Had a The Hon. J. :W. GALBALLY (Mel­ different party formed the Government bourne North Province).-During the the paTk might have been called the second-reading stage, I made a sugges­ Galbally National Park. I do not tion relating to the name of the park. oppose the principle of naming national If the Minister proposes to adopt my projects after ia person who has devoted suggestion, and will report progress at a large portion of his Ufe to public this stage, I shall not move the amend­ work. In my opinion, the King-street ment that I have circulated. 3564 Fraser N atianal [COUNCIL.) Park Bill.

Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of The Committee divided on the question Transport).-! am sure that the that the word proposed by Mr. Galbally Honorary Minister (Mr. Fraser) to be omitted stand part of the clause has done a very good job in (the Hon. D. J. Walters in the chair)- relation to this .park. A number Ayes 19 of projects have been named after men Noes 10 who have worked in the national in­ terest. In this case, I do not think Majority against the there has been any jumping of the gun. amendment 9 The public coffers were safe,guarded in that the printing of the map was paid AYES. for by Broadbent's; no public funds were Mr. Bailey Mr. McArthur spent on it. Mr. Bradbury Mr. Mack Mr. Brennan Mr. Mansell The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-It was Mr. Bridgford Mr. May done in collaboration with officers of the Mr. Byrnes Mr. Swinburne Mr. Cameron Mr. Thompson Commission. Mr. Dickie Sir Arthur Warner. Mr. Gawith Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-But Broad­ Mr. Jones Tellers: bent's .paid for the work. Mr. Feltham Mr. Little Mr. Grigg. The Hon. P. T. BYRNES.~What De­ partment supplied the information for NOES. the map? Mr. Ferguson Mr. Slater Mr. Galbally Mr. Smith Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-! should Mr. Jones Mr. Thomas. imagine that would have :been done by Tellers: the State Rivers and Water Supply Mr. Machin Mr. Arnott Commission. Members of the National Mr. Rawson Mr. Tilley. Parks Authority investigated this The clause was agreed to, as were the matter. Whether they made inquiries remaining clauses and the schedule. from authorities other than the Depart­ ment that owned the land, I have not The Bill was reported to the House without amendment, and passed through been able to ascertain. It was a State property and was used for the purposes its remaining stages. for which it was purchased. The balance was thought to be ideal as a STATE SAVINGS BANK (AMEND­ national park. The matter was referred MENT) BILL. to the authority, and it made the The House went into Committee for recommendation. The Minister in the further consideration of this Bill. charge of the national parks was given Discussion was resumed of clause 8, the privilege of having the first park pmviding- to be established during his regime In paragraph (7) of the exemptions named after him. under the heading " 1. BILLS OF EXCHANGE The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ AND PROMISSORY NOTES " in the Third Schedule to :the Stamps Act 1946 as amen­ bourne North Province).-! have no ded by any Act after the words "Savings option than to move my amendment, Bank " there shall be inserted the expres­ which proposes that the name of the sion " (not being a cheque drawn by a park revert to Eildon. As a party, we depositor on an account in a savings bank unless such cheque is exempt under another are opposed to Ministers naming pro­ exception in this Schedule." jects, good or bad, after themselves. We do not think a Minister should raise a Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of monument to himself during his term Transport) .-I have discussed with the of office. The principle is bad and other Ministers the suggestion that enables a Minister to take advantage of trade unions should be exempted from his position. Therefore, I move- the payment of stamp duty on cheques. We con.sider that adoption of the pro­ That in sub-clause (1) the word "Fraser" be omitted with the view of inserting the posal would set a bad precedent and word " Eildon." that the Country party, the Liberal State Savings Bank [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] (Amendment) Bill. 3565 party, the Chamber of Manufactures NOES. and other bodies would have equal Mr. Bradb11ry Mr. Mack justification to claim the benefit of such Mr. Byrnes Mr. Mansell Mr. Cameron Mr. Swinburne an exemption. We do not think we Mr. Dickie Mr. Thompson should commence such a practice and, Mr. Feltham Sir Arthur Warner. therefore, consider that the proposed Mr. Gawith Tellers: amendment should be rejected. Mr. Grigg Mr. Bridgford Mr. McArthur Mr. May. The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta Galla Province).-! move- PAm. That it be a suggestion ito the Assembly Mr. Sheehy l Mr. Chandler. that clause 8 be omitted with the view of inserting the following new clauses:- Clause 8 was agreed to. A. Under the heading " 1. BILLS OF EX­ CHANGE AND PROMISSORY NOTES" in the The Bill was reported to the House Third Schedule to the Stamps Act 1946 without amendment, and passed through as amended by any Act, t!here shall be its remaining stages. inser.ted ithe following new paragraph to follow paragraph (12) :~ " (13) Cheque drawn by any de­ APPROPRIATION BILL. positor in pursuance of the provisions This Bill was received from the As­ of section 38 of the State Savings Bank Act 1928." · sembly and, on the motion of Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of Trans­ B. Notwithstanding anything in the Stamps Act 1946 a cheque drawn by a port), was read a first time. trade union within :bhe meaning of the Trade Unions Act 1928 on the State Sav­ ings Bank of Victoria, shall not be FOOT AND MOUTH DISEASE subject to any duty. ERADICATION FUND BILL. It is difficult to appreciate the reasoning The debate (adjourned from November of the Minister of Transport, who has 26) on the motion of the Hon. G. L. endeavoured to draw an analogy Chandler (Minister of Agriculture) for between trade unions and major the second reading of this Bill was political parties when it does not exist. resumed. Under various Acts, trade unions have been granted certain privileges, and it The Hon. D. L. ARNOTT (Western is considered that this is another Province).__..:...! am sure that this Bill privilege that could properly be extended will be approved by all members of the to those organizations, which are some­ House. Its purpose is to set up what akin to co-operative housing machinery for the payment of compen­ societies and friendly societies. The sation in respect of any outbreak of State Savings Bank Commissioners have foot and mouth disease which might wide powers enabling them to exempt occur anywhere in Australia. A formula charitable organizations in this way. has been agreed upon throughout the Commonwealth, and legislation embody­ The Committee divided on the motion ing similar principles has -already been (the Hon. D. J. Walters in the chair)- passed or is in process of being enacted Ayes 14 in other States. A calamity would Noes 15 occur if this dread disease broke out in this country. It is prevalent in Europe, Maj.ority against the but every possible measure has been motion 1 taken to prevent Australian herds and AYES. flocks becoming infected. The Australian Mr. Arnott Mr. Rawson Agricultural Council is to be congratu­ Mr. Bailey Mr. Slater lated for bringing the matter under the Mr. Ferguson Mr. Smith Mr. Galbally Mr. Thomas notice of the Commonwealth and State Mr. .Jones Mr. Tilley. Governments. The passing of the Bill

The Hon. R. W. MAY (Gippsland The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ Province).-This very important Bill bourne North Province).-This is a has the backing of the Australian Agri­ formal but necessary measure to in­ cultural Council. Its object is to crease the borrowing powers of the provide for the establishment of a Foot State Electricity Commission. We are and Mouth Disease Eradication Fund all familiar with the tremendous task and for the compensation of owners of with which that authority is confronted animals and properties which might be in raising funds for its capital works. destroyed to prevent the spread of the Those of us who have a knowledge of disease and to eradicate it should the workings o.f Government instrumen­ an outbreak occur. Realizing the talities are not sanguine that in the importance of the matter, the Common­ present state of the loan market the wealth Government has agreed to bear Commission will be able to carry out 50 per cent. of the costs of compensa­ its programme. It requires something like tion, and under the formula that has £30,000,000 a year for the next ten been arrived at the Victorian Govern­ years, and it is quite apparent that, with ment will be responsible for 18.25 per the activities of the hire-purchase com­ cent. of that part of the cost to be borne panies, this money will not be forth­ by the States. The fact that all State coming on the loan market. Governments are passing identical legis­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-The Govern­ lation is an indication of the importance ment will have to invent a Bill during of the measure. the discussion of which you will not be Australia is in almost a unique posi­ able to mention the hire-purchase com­ tion regarding this disease. According panies. to the departmental notes supplied by The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-I know the Minister, Australia, New Zealand, that I am echoing a familiar theme, but Canada, and the United States of I point out that it was acknowledged America are the only countries in which by the Commonwealth Government in the disease does not exist. It is of the White Paper issued earlier this year. paramount importance that it should be It is no good this Government shutting kept from our shores. Adequate com­ its eyes to the activities of hire-purchase pensation will be paid, based on the companies. If it continues to adopt that value of an infected beast when it is attitude the difficulties of the State destroyed or, if it dies, on the certificate Electricity Commission will be increased of an inspector. The great primary and the community will be faced with industries in Australia have played a power black-outs. A simple enough pro­ major part in the development of this position is involved. Who will lend country, and if the disease became money to the Commission at 51 per established here the results on the cent. interest when n per cent. can be economy could be calamitous. All neces­ obtained from hire-purchase companies? sary precautions must be taken. The I am aware that the hour is late, but various Governments throughout Aus­ I should like to develop this theme. It tralia have "seen fit to take legislative is a well-worn one so far as I am action to guard against the disease, and concerned. the Country party commends this very desirable measure. Sir ARTHUR w ARNER.-So far as I am concerned, too. The motion was agreed to. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-The The Bill was read a second time, and Minister of Transport must share some passed through its remaining stages. of the responsibility. After all, portion of the loan funds available to the STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION Government is used to finance Budget (BORROWING) BILL. deficits, and about £5,000,000 a year goes The debate (adjourned from Decem­ down the drain in the railway system ber 3) on the motion of Sir Arthur of this State. Unless we find a solution Warner (Minister of Transport) for the to our financial problems, not only will second reading of this Bill was resumed. the State Electricity Commission fail to State Electricity [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Commission (Borrowing) Bill. 3567 carry out its proper function, but other the vicinity of £167,000,000. Victorian instrumentalities will be in trouble. The Government advances to maintain this Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of instrumentality and bring it to the stage Works, the Gas and Fuel Corporation, it has reached to-day have been approxi­ the Education Department, the Public mately £4'5,000,000. On top of those Works Department, and other Govern­ figures, but not included in the loan ment instrumentalities will be in danger. liability, there is what is known as the All because this Government con­ self-help scheme. Of that amount tinues-- £1,500,000 was unexpended as at 30th The Hon. D. J. WALTERS.-To foster June of this year. That is a working hire-purchase. fund which can be used by the Commis­ The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.­ sion. Some large developments are Exactly. I knew that Mr. Walters would proposed to meet the demand for elec­ be converted to our philosophy sooner tricity. If progress is to be made it or later. At this late hour I sound a may be necessary to do what the Leader note of warning. I am aware there is of the House so often criticizes in the nothing original in the sentiments I Federal sphere--use taxation money on express, but it is only by hammering at capital works. the Government constantly that we shall Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Our money. get anywhere. I know that after May The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Our of next year things will be different, money will be used on capital works in but the damage done before then may this State. It would be interesting to be too great to repair. I commend the know whether the Victorian Govern­ Bill to the House, but I point out that ment is charging the State Electricity the fact that we have authorized extra Commission interest on the advances borrowing powers does not get the Com­ being made. The Minister indicates that mission much closer to obtaining the it is not, but it is included in the total money. of our loan liability. According to this The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE (North­ year's report it is anticipated that in Eastern Province).-On behalf of the the forthcoming year the amount of Country party I support the measure. capital works to be financed out of It is the type of Bill that is brought revenue will be increased from 25 per forward from time to time to raise the cent. to 33 per cent. Quite a deal of limit of the borrowing powers of the the revenue of this State w.ill be used State Electricity Commission. All up in this way. honorable members are aware 01f the Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-It is revenue of activities of this great organization and the Commission. its need for capital expansion. I do not The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-That think any of us would like to do any­ is so, but it is also revenue of the State thing that might stop the progress of which is a tax or a hire for the service. the Commission, as over the years all Either the profit which is earned must parties have taken a hand in its plan­ be reduced so that the consumer can ning. The fact that we authorize an buy his electricity at a lower rate, or increase in borrowing powers to the the position must remain as it is and the extent of £50,000,000 will not be of any funds be used for developmental works. real benefit unless the Commission is able to obtain the funds it requires from Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-There is a time to time. I asked the Minister of difference between financing out of Transport to obtain some information taxation and financing out of charges. for me on the Commission's activities The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-That and, through his offices, the State Elec­ may be so. I want to know where this tricity Commission has furnished certain money is coming from. If it comes out figures relating to the percentage of of revenue or out of profits made by the money used from loan . funds and from State Electricity Commission, that revenue. The amount subscribed over should be made clear. If it comes from the years by debentures, public loan taxation, we should be clear on what subscriptions and private loans, is in basis it becomes involved in the loan 3568 State Electricity [COUNCIL.] Commission (Borrowing) Bill. liability which we are asked to provide Clause 2 (Increase of borrowing under this measure. I am not a finan­ powers of State and Commission). cier or an accountant, but the House should be clear about this proposal. I Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of have been trying to discover whether it Transport).-It is expected that the is necessary at this stage to increase the State Electricity Commission will spend amount to the figure menUoned in the £24,000,000 on capital works during the Bill. If this money is to be provided current financial year. Of that sum, out .of the profits of the State Electricity £2,000,000 will be obtained from the Commission it might be better to lower "self-help" scheme, a certain amount the rates and give consumers cheaper will be borrowed by way of general loan electricity and provide the money from -some of it on the open market, some State funds. from the State Government and some on ordinary private accounts from stock­ The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-That is brokers and the like. Interest is paid on a ridiculous suggestion. How can the all these amounts. In addition, further State Electricity Commission finance moneys are borrowed from the deprecia­ £30,000,000 a year out of profits? tion appropriation, from the money The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Ob­ received when old plant is sold and from viously Mr. Galbally has not been listen­ the profit made by the Commission, ing to what I have been saying. which amount to approximately one­ The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-I have third of the capital expenditure. No been listening carefully. Fancy saying interest is paid on these sums. the Commission could finance £30,000,000 The clause was agreed to, as was a year out of profits. clause 3. The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Mr. The Bill was reported to the House Galbally is not quite fair. I did not without amendment, and passed through mention the fi.gure of £30,000,000. its remaining stages. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-That is the amount required. SHEPPARTON LANDS BILL. The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-! am The debate (adjourned from Novem­ asking the Minister for information. It ber 2'6) on the motion of the Hon. is two years since Mr. Galbally was E. P. Cameron (Minister of Health) Minister of Electrical Undertakings. for the second reading of this Bill was The sitting was suspended at 12.2 a. m. resumed. until 12.40 a.m. (Friday). The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ The Hon. I. A. SWINBURNE.-Prior bourne North Province).-This is a to the suspension of the sitting I was formal measure that was explained developing an argument regarding. ~he adequately by the Minister of Health, means by which the State ElectrlClty and members of our party have no Commission obtains its finance. I should objection to its speedy passage. like the Minister of Transport, during the Committee stage, to supply further The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Nor­ information in that regard so that hon­ thern Province).-This is a land ex­ orable members will be in a better change Bill of a type that is familiar position to judge whether the -increased to members. The Sheppa1rton munici­ borrowing powers are necessary. From pal -buildings are erected on Crown memory, those powers were last in­ land but the area is not large enough creased in 1954, and it is possible that to accommodate a public hall to be the proposed additional amount of attached to those buildings. The £50,000,000 will last the Commission for municipality has acquired another aTea three or four years. in the city, which it proposes to ex· change for the land on which the The motion was agreed to. municipal buildings are erected. The The Bill was read a second time and Minister of Lands has driven a committed. hard bargain and is assured that the Clause 1 was agreed to. land to be received by the Crown is of Crimes (Amendment) [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Bill. 3569 equal value to that to be ceded to the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ municipality. The Bill will be of great bourne North Province).-! move-- assistance to a progressive municipality That the proposed new sub-section (3) that is blessed with a hard-working and of section 319, as set out in .paragraph (b) enthusiastic council. The Country be omitted with the view of inserting the party supports the measure. following new sub-section:- " (3) Any member of the Police Force The motion was agreed to. may without warrant apprehend any person The Bill was read a second time, and on any highway or in any public place- (a) if such person is driving a motor car passed through dts remaining stages. and is apparently under the influence of intoxicating liquor or ELPHINSTONE LANDS EXCHANGE any drug; or BILL. (b) if such member of the Police Force has reasonable grounds for believ­ The debate (adjourned .from Novem­ ing that such person was driving ber 26) on the motion of the Hon. a motor car when under the influence of intoxicating liquor or E. P. Cameron (Minister of Health) any drug- for the second reading of this Bill was and may charge any such person with the resumed. offence referred to in sub-section (1) of this section and may drive or convey a The Hon. ARTHUR SMITH (Ben­ motor car to and detain it at any poHce digo Province).-! cannot conceive that station pending the admission of such any objection will be raised to this prisoner to bail or (where that prisoner is not the owner of the motor car) pending measure, which pr:ovides for the ex­ a demand by the owner thereof." change of one area of land for another. This action is necessary to provide a My proposal is a compromise suitable ·recreation reserve for local between the present position and that people, and members of our party which the Government seeks on this support the measure. aspect. I submit confidently that when the Government desires to make a The motion was agreed to. change in the law which would inter­ The Bill· was Tead a second time, and fere with the liberty of the subject it passed through its remaining stages. should show clearly to the Committee that such arbitrary powers are neces­ sary. In this instance, the Government CRIMES (AMENDMENT) BILL. proposes that a member of the Police The House went into Committee for Force shall have the same powers of the further consideration of this Bill. arrest in a case of driving under the Discussion was resumed of clause 2, influence as he has in respect of a providing, inter alia-- felony. I think that 1is going too far. I The principal Act is hereby amended as suggest that a policeman should have all follows:- the powers of arrest relating to a felony where the offender is on a highway or (b) For sub-section (3) of section 319 in a public place, but that, if the offender rt.here shall be substituted the is in his own home, having regard to following sub-section:- " (3) (a) Any member of the our ancient principles respecting privacy Police Force shall have in relation and the sanctity of the home, the police­ to any offence against this section man should be required to obtain a the same powers of arrest as he warrant before entering. Let us con­ has in relation to felonies; Where any person arrested sider the example of a member of the in pursuance of the powers con­ Police Force who in a car chases an tained in the last preceding sub­ offender who has cleared out after a section is in charge of a motor hit-run accident. The policeman would car any member of the Police Force may drive or convey the be able to arrest him without a warrant motor car to and detain it at any until he got inside his home. In police station pending the admis­ practke no difficulty would arise because sion of such prisoner to bail or (where that prisoner is not the if the car stopped the offender could be owner of the motor car) pending arrested without a warrant, but if he a demand by ithe owner thereof;" got into his home a warrant could be Session 1956.-145 3570 Crimes (Amendment) [COUNCIL.] Bill. obtained speedily while the police kept watch the house, and then obtain a the house under observation. This pro­ warrant before he could enter to arrest posal is an invasion of the liberty of the off ender? the subject which the Committee should The Hon. J. w. GALBALLY.-If he kills reject unless it is clearly shown to be someone it is a felony. absolutely necessary. The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR.-For the of Forests).-The Government has con­ benefit of Mr. Galbally, I shall cite ferred with other parties which put another hypothetical case. A person forward certain suggestions, but they driving a stolen car could be responsible were not acceptable to Mr. Galbally's for seriously injuring another person party. and he could escape into a home. The The Hon. J. A. LITTLE.-! wonder if amendment, if adopted, would mean that the information could leak out to us the constable would be required to seek occasionally? out a justice of the peace to obtain a warrant for his arrest. The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR.-It is difficult to find a quorum of Mr. Little's The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-If he had party in another place. stolen the car, he would have committed The Hon. A. J. BAILEY.-We are larceny, which is also a felony. concerned only with this House. The Hon. G: S. McARTHUR.-Had The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR.-When the car in question been borrowed, the Bills are introduced into another place position would be different. However, on some occasions some of the other in view of the attitude adopted by Mr. parties are consulted. That is not an Galbally, I indicate the Government's improper course. I am aware that the intention to vote against the amendment. other parties are supporNng the Govern­ ment up to a point and would do so in The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ our efforts to curb drunken driving. bourne North Province) .-1 appreciate This House appreciates that the that there could be various points of Government is sincerely attempting to view on these amendments, but for the stamp out such offences and to bring Minister to completely misstate the mat­ to justice drunken drivers. Mr. ter is not doing this institution justice. Galbally has pointed out that the The amendment was not submitted in granting of power of arrest as another . place, and consequently there for a felony would allow a constable to could have been no discussion on it. enter a person's house. If the Govern­ My amendment is reasonable, and the ment went so far as to make this offence Minister has not been able to cite one a felony, not only constables but also -case that would show or prove that in any private citizen could force his way actual practice it would prove unwork­ into a private dwelling if he had reason­ able. In fact, he has had to withdraw able grounds to believe that a felony the cases he attempted to state. Of had been or was about to be committed. course, by reason of the fact that the The Government does not intend to go Opposition is not supported by the weight that far. of numbers, the amendment will be re­ jected. However, I raise my voice in The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Are you protest and anger at Ministers of the not proposing to give the same power Crown debating amendments about to a constable as he would have in the case of a felony? which they know nothing. The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR.-Yes, The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne but not to a citizen. That is the North Province).-! do not object to the difference. I shall put an example to the amendment. However, in the case of Committee. Suppose a drunken driver drunkenness, it is possible that the pro­ steals a car, kills a person, and escapes cedures necessary before a person could back to his home. Is it proper that a be apprehended would take some time policeman by himself should have to and, by the time a warrant had been obtain another policeman or two to obtained, all signs of drunkenness might Orimes (Amendment) [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Bill. 3571 have disappeared. Perhaps Mr. The Hon. L. H. s. THOMPSON.­ Galbally could give some logical explana­ Suppose that the motorist wandered into tion of how the procedure relating to a nearby shop or house. Would he be the apprehension of persons suspected immune from arrest? of being under the influence of alcohol The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Yes; could be streamlined. under my amendment, he could he The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ arrested on a highway or in a .public bourne North Province).-The point place. Of course, in certain circum­ raised by Mr. Little is well taken. In stances a shop would be regarded as a reply, I point out that in our system of public place. If he gained .the sanctuary law, arbitrary arrest should be avoided, of a home, a policeman would not and, for that reason, our civilization is be able to go in and arrest him distinguishable from that of Soviet Rus­ without ·some mandate. However, sia. One of the features most dreaded in order to obtain a warrant for in Russia, and in satellite countries, is his ·arrest, the policeman would simply the knock on the door which is appear before a justice of •the peace, frequently followed by arbitrary arrest submit his evidence quite infovmally, and taking the person or persons con­ and the justice of :the ·peace would cerned away. We, in this country, have sign the warrant there and then. never subscribed to that procedure because, before a person may be taken The Hon. P. v. FELTHAM.-Would away, there are various formalities to you be happy for a justice of the peace be carried out-usually, an arrest war­ to .sign a warrant for the arrest of an rant must be taken out. No honorable unknown person? member wishes to .see a drunken driver The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-Yes. get away but, on the other hand, all of The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM.-That us wish to protect a citizen from arbit­ would be a dangerous procedure. rary arrest. The modern Police Force is less than 150 years old, and the The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.-1 do debates of the House of Commons indi­ not agree with Mr. Feltham on that cate that, while it was considered that aspect. great advantages would flow from the The Hon. P. v. FELTHAM.-If the establishment of a police force, certain person in question escaped from a motor disadvantages could accrue if great car and entered a near.by home, he must powers were vested in its members. be an unknown man. Would you be Our law has always been jealous in prepared to agree that such a .person protecting the right of the citizens. could be arrested? In addressing myself to the problem The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY.­ posed by Mr. Little, I emphasize that Yes; that is done every day. Fre­ before a driver gains the sanctuary of quently a constable appears before a his home, he would be seen on the road­ justice of the peace and says, " While way-if that were not so, no one would driving along St. Kilda-road, I saw a be in a position to make an arrest. man in car No. so-and-so. I followed Usually, the driver would be appre­ him to St. Kilda-street, Brighton, hended before he could gain the where he entered certain ·premises. I sanctuary of his home. However, watched him enter, and I now seek a .should a drunken motorist be clever warrant to arrest that man, whose enough to avoid the police and escape name is unknown." After obtaining the into his own home-it would be a rare warrant, the policeman would return to occurrence-the policeman, under my the house and arrest the person. amendment, would have to obtain a I could make it more harsh, but the warrant. That is a simple procedure idea behind the amendment is not to which involves appearing before a impede anyone in the lawful execution justice of the peace, as is required when of his duty. a person seeks tbail. Justices of the peace must be available at all hours of The amendment was negatived. the night and the procedure would not The clause was agreed to, as was take more than half an hour. clause 3. 3572 Crimes (Amendment) [COUNCIL.] Bill.

Clause 4, providing, inter alia-­ evidence being used. It is true that by Section 408 of the principal Act is hereby the acceptance of the voluntary prin­ amended as follows:- ciple, some, who might be convicted if this method of evidence were used, may For sub-section .(3) there shall be escape. A question of more importance substituted the following sub-sections:- is that nobody should be wrongly con­ <10> In this section- victed by a new and comparatively (a) • properly qualified ·analyst' untried method which may add some means- violence to our previously accepted con­ (i) an approved analyst; or cepts of justice, namely, oral evidence, (ii) a person whom the pre­ cross-examination, and the sanctity of siding judge or chair­ the person unless he gives his consent man or the court of .petty sessions considers freely and voluntarily and without com­ qualified by examina­ pulsion of any kind. tion training and ex­ perience to carry out Briefly, the purpose of the amend­ the analysis and to ex­ ment is to ensure that the consent of a press the opinion to person is in fact voluntarily given with­ which this section relates; out any pressure being exerted. The (b) •approved analyst' means a reason for the first part of the amend­ person who has been approved ment is that the Bill, as it now stands, by Order of the Governor in means that the evidence of a blood Council published in the Government Gazette as a pro­ sample could be admitted and taken into perly qualified analyst for the account by a court, no matter by what purposes of this section. means it was obtained, and whether The Hon. C. H. BRIDGFORD (South­ consent had or had not been given. It Eastern Province).-! move- may be that a person violated would have other remedies in another place on That in proposed new sub-section (10) the expression .. (10) In" be omitted with another day, but that would not help the view of inserting the following:-· him if he had been convicted as the <10) No such blood sample shall be result of a blood test improperly taken. taken and no evidence of .the result of any analysis of such a The second part of the amendment is sample shall be tendered unless to ensure that there is no compulsion the person from whom the blood by inference or implication. I am has been collected has expressed informed that it is permissible for the his consent to the collection of :the blood and the onus of proving prosecution to mention in the court that such expression of consent shall a blood test has been sought and re­ be on the prosecution. fused. As a rule, the accused would be The mere failure or refusal to asked, " Were you sober?" and if he express consent shall not be used in evidence against him or re­ said, " Yes," he would then be asked, f erred to in any way against his "Why did you refuse a blood test?" He interests in arty proceedings. might have a good reason for refusing, <11) In ... tbut it might be of the most intimate and The blood test is a new form of evidence, personal nature. There would certainly of which there has been little experience be some form of pressure applied. It so far. Considerable difference of opi­ is desired that a person shall not be com­ nion exists regarding the matter, and promised mer_ely by a refusal to agree only time will tell how far it conforms to a blood test. Only timP. will show to clinical and other evidence; by how how the general method of blood test­ much it differs from it, if it does differ; ing will work. The acceptance of the and, where it differs, which method is amendment will provide an opportunity to be depended upon. Until we have for the matter to be tried out. It will learnt whether we can trust it or not, · ensure that the test will not be used and whether it is reliable or not, the against anybody but those who volun­ Government takes the view that nobody tarily agree to it. should run the risk of being convicted The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-Will the unless he agrees to this form of amendment not weaken the legislation? Public Works Loan [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] .Application Bill (No. 2). 3573

The Hon. C. H. BRIDGFORD.-! do Government had to redeem bonds not think so. In view of the fact that to the value of £16,600,000. The it will minimize the possibility of an sum of £4,500,000 is still outstanding as innocent person being convicted, or no word has been received from the bond­ compulsion used, I consider the measure holders. Therefore, the over-all picture will be strengthened. is that the people are still shy of invest­ The Hon. G. S. McARTHUR (Minister ing in Government loans. The outlook of Forests) .-The Government accepts for the future is not hopeful when one considers the work to be done, especially the amendment. in the very important fields of education The amendment was agreed to, as was and health. a consequential amendment, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, as Once more, I appeal to the Govern­ were the remaining clauses. ment and the Minister of Transport to take more concrete and spectacular The First Schedule was consequen­ steps aimed at ending the system tially amended, and, as amended, was whereby the Commonwealth Govern­ adopted. ment charges the State interest on The Second Schedule was verbally revenue which is loaned for capital amended, and, as amended, was adopted. works purposes. This is an iniquitous The Bill was reported to the House system, and we feel that little will be with amendments, and passed through achieved by merely protesting in the its remaining stages. House against it. Definite action must be taken, and the Opposition is only too PUBLIC WORKS LOAN willing to support the Government in APPLICATION BILL (No. 2). this connexion. The Minister of Trans­ port has the opportunity to use the The debate (adjourned from Decem­ trams, for example, as a means of dis .. ber 3) on the motion of Sir Arthur seminating propaganda. I am sure that Warner (Minister of Transport) for the he could think of a suitable slogan to be second reading of this Bill was resumed. exhibited in all trams protesting against The Hon. R.R. RAWSON (Southern the action of the Federal Government. Province).-The total amount to be A similar type of sticker could be pre­ raised under the authority of this pared for placing on the windscreens of Public Works Loan Application Bill is motor cars. If we can force the Com .. £16,860,000, and of that sum £12,000,000 monwealth Government to end this will be allocated for the building of system, it is possible that more funds schools and hospitals. This measure is will be available for State works. most important as it covers the pro­ I notice that finance is to be provided vision of loan funds for use in connexion for institutions under the control of the with some of our most important social Children's Welfare Department, and services. Each year we expect to see that the Winlaton Home for girls at the loan authorizations increased, and Nunawading will benefit. The work we would hope, too, that from year to done there has proved to be most satis­ year the prospects of raising the money factory indeed. Not only has the super­ on the loan market would become more visor been able to handle the girls favourable. Unfortunately, in spite of strictly, but she has at the same time the increase in the rates of interest succeeded in obtaining their affection. offered, the prospects are not bright. That is most important because lack The latest approach to the loan market of affection at home has been the main resulted in £32,500,000 being subscribed reason for many of the children being for a cash loan of £30,000,000, which is placed in positions which resulted in pleasing indeed. On the surface, it their being placed in that institution. would appear that we are once more The idea is to enlarge Winlaton in two obtaining the confidence of the people. important ways. A remand section will However, at the same time there was a be provided, and a hostel erected for conversion of £75,300,000, of which girls who have served their time there £54,200,000 only was taken up by and are working outside the institution investors, and the Commonwealth but still need supervision and care. 3574 Public Works Loan [COUNCIL.] Application Bill (No. 2).

Suggestions have been made that a trust that in the new location some new institution should be provided for steps will be taken to expedite the delinquent boys who, in the past, were printing of such a book. sent to Langi Kai Kal. Honorable mem­ bers will recall that Judge Nelson in his Another important provision is for report on that institution stated that he bush nursing hospitals of which there considered a home should be provided for are 44 in this State. Under this Bill, older boys which should be under the they are to receive £100,000. It is un­ direction of the Children's Welfare necessary for me to commend bush Department. The sum to be allocated nursing hospitals to members as every­ this year will certainly not be adequate one knows of the splendid work they to provide such an institution, but prob­ perform. It is pleasing that this ably it will allow for the laying of the amount has been provided to help foundations and the building can be them with the construction of buildings. completed in future years. They also receive a maintenance grant. Another item concerns the provision I notice that funds will be provided being made to accommodate students for the Government Printing Office. In at agricultural colleges. On 29th the new year it is proposed to transfer October, a question was asked of the the office to a new site, and when that is done no doubt the old ·premises will Minister of Agriculture as to how many students were awaiting admission to be renovated and used by some other Government Department. I have agricultural colleges in this State. The Minister's reply was to the effect always been of the opinion that the headquarters of the Children's Welfare that there were 813 applications on Department should be less official than hand. Then he said- an ordinary office building. The These are distributed as follows:­ present office is located in the railway For admission in No. of building in Flinders-street, and is applications. 1958 423 most unsuitable. The best location 1959 165 would be in a suburb close to Melbourne. 1960 117 At the moment I understand such a 1961 53 place is not available, but when the old 1962 36 1963 14 Government Printing Office is renovated 1964 2 it could be made an attractive build­ 1965 3 ing for this type of work. 813 While on the subject of the Govern­ On that basis it will be eight years ment Printing Office, I am sure that before those 813 students are accom­ the same splendid work will be carried modated. Whether those .who are on in the new quarters ias is being registered now will wait for eight performed in the present building. All years is extremely doubtful. I am re­ members realize how quickly documents minded that if a parent wishes his child are produced. At the same time, to become a member of the Melbourne delivery of some permanent documents Cricket Club his name must be put is slow. It is felt that by this time down at birth, and the same applies to members should have received bound some colleges. It appears that if it is volumes of the parliamentary debates for desired that a child should be trained in the year 1955-56. I do not know whether an agricultural college in future it may the printing office is responsible for the be necessary to register his name at delay in producing the Year-Book, but birth. That position is unsatisfactory, the last one delivered was for 1951-52. and I trust the Government will Although it would always be useful as consider making more money available a record, I am doubtful whether it will to these colleges, in view of the fact that serve any great purpose for immediate this i~ a primary producing country and use. If the Government Printing those interested in agricultural science Office is responsible for that position, I should be educated. The Hon. R. R. Rawson. -Public Works Loan [5 DECEMBER, 1957.] Application Bill (No. 2). 3575

The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ are falling into disrepak and in country Western Province).-This Bill covers centres the work of va!rious Depart­ the activities of the Public Works ments is made very difficult. I appeal Department which is the labouring to the Minister of Transport to approach authority for many other Depart­ the Treasurer with a view to having a ments. The measure provides legisla­ larger allocation made in order to fulfil tive authority to enable the Govern­ the promise to have these new public ment to borrow money to carry out offices at Benalla started this financial necessary works. The Count·ry pa·rty year. The tenders which have been has no objection to any item in the received were too much in excess of the schedule, although it is considered that estimate to enable one to be accepted. in :some instances more money could However, even if an acceptable tender be spent. were received, the work could not start The Bill was read a second time and because the money is not available. committed. The schedule was agreed to. The clauses were agreed to. The Bill was reported to the House Schedule. without amendment, and passed through its remaining stages. The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY (North­ Eastern Province).-! wish to refer to the allocation made to the Public Works JURIES (AMENDMENT) BILL. Department for works on public offices. The debate (adjourned from Decem­ Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-Which item is ber 3) on the motion of the Hon. G. S. that? McArthur (Minister of Forests) for the second reading of this Bill was resumed. The Hon. A. K. BRADBURY.-They are included in various items. All told, The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ £320,000 is provided in the schedule for bourne North Province).-This small the Public Works Department for this measure has the approval of my party. financial year. Of that sum, £145,000 It was adequately explained by the has already been spent, and the balance Minister of Forests and there is no need i:s fully committed. There are public for me to repeat. the desirable reforms buildings throughout the State of that it contains. Victoria to-day which are in a most The Hon. P. V. FELTHAM (Northern disgraceful state. Some years ago, Province) .-The Country party agrees Benalla was promised new public offices. with the two amendments proposed in In the early part of this year, together the Bill. with my colleagues, I took part in a deputation which waited on the Mini­ The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash ster of Public Works who assured us Province) .-My party concurs also. that the public offices in Benalla would The motion was agreed to. be the next to be built. Plans and specifications. were prepared and tenders The Bill was read a second time, and called, but when tenders were received passed through its remaining stages. the lowest was much too high. The present position is that the Public APPROPRIATION BILL. Works Department has referred the Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of matter back to the draughtsman so that Transport).-! move-- the cost of the building can be reduced. After looking at the schedule, I am That this Bill be now read a second time. convinced there is no hope that this The purpose of this measure is . to building will be commenced this financial appropriate £53,249,861 out of the Con­ year, even if the cost is reduced by half, solidated Revenue for the year ending because the £320,000 allocated to the 30th June, 1958. The schedules embody Public Works Department for these all the items of expenditure in accord­ purposes is already fully committed. ance with the estimated requirements. Public buildings throughout the State The sum of £53,497,830 has already been 3576 Appropriation [COUNCIL.] Bill. made available under the various Con­ rely on the arguments that I have pre­ solidated Revenue Bills which have been viously advanced for the abolition of this approved on previous occasions, and the tax. amount referred to in this Bill repre­ sents the balance of the estimated ex­ The motion was agreed to. penditure for the current financial year. The Bill was read a second time and I shall answer any questions that may committed. be raised during the Committee stage. Clause 1 was agreed to. The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ bourne North Province).-This Bill Clause 2 (Appropriation of supplies). exemplifies the age-old maxim that bad Governments as well as good Govern­ The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON (Higinbotham Province).-! apologize to ments need money. I presume that this Government must have money in order the House for speaking at this late hour. I would not have done so had to carry on its administration. At this I not thought the subject was of suffi­ late hour I do not propose to say any cient importance. I propose, during the more. dying moments of this sessional period, The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ to refer to a dying system of govern­ ment-the Federal system-which is Western Province).-! do not propose suffering from that fatal disease of to go into the Bill in detail. During the uniform taxation. Fortunately, how­ Committee stage some honorable mem­ ever, there is still one life-saving drug bers may require further information which could prove effective and that is in regard to the items contained in the the return to the States of their taxing schedules. Members of my party will rights. I do npt propose to go over the vote for the granting of this amount of ground covered so adequately by Mr. money to the Government because we Bridgford recently when he pointed out know that within a short space of time the disability suffered by the State the Government will be facing the of Victoria. It is common knowledge electors. This Bill will provide the that Victorian residents pay 31 per cent. Government with sufficient money to of the revenue obtained from taxation enable it to carry on until the end of and the State receives back only 26 per the financial year. cent. as reimbursements. This practice costs the state of Victoria between The Hon. T. W. BRENNAN (Monash £8,000,000 'and £10,000,000 per annum. Province).-This Bill contains the usual The cumulative effect of uniform taxa­ items referred to in a measure of this tion since 1942 has been that Victoria type under various headings, one has lost £96,000,000. We know also of which relates to the payment of that the money collected in this State money by the State under the provi­ as taxation is loaned back to the State sions of the Commonwealth Pay-roll Tax by the Commonwealth Government and Assessment Act 1941. I refer to the interest at the rate of 5 per cent. is charged thereon. When that money is arguments that I have raised on pre­ used to fund a deficit, interest is charged vious occasions in regard to this matter. at the rate of 9 per cent. I remind the Minister of Transport, with the thought of his Government trembling The Hon. R. R. RAWSON.-What are in the balance, that there is a growing you doing about it? body of public opinion not merely The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.-! amongst citizens generally but also wish to discuss this problem in three amongst members of his own party in sections. In the first place, is Federalism the Federal sphere against the payment worth defending? I submit that it is. of this tax. Taxpayers' associations The essence of Federalism is a division and other kindred bodies are raising of power between the central Govern­ their voices against what is a useless ment and State Governments. In 1901, and unprofitable item of expenditure. I the Commonwealth was given certain Appropriation [5 DECEMBER, 1957.J .Bill. 8577 powers and the remainder were left to ones corresponding to Victoria and New the States. I maintain that the right South Wales levy their own taxation. to carry out a responsibility and the At the present time Ontario is collecting raising of money to do so effectively are the corporation taxes and Quebec is inseparable. We cannot administer the collecting its own income taxation, both responsibilities of the State 1:mless we personal and company. have the finance to do so. Is it desirable to have a Federal The Hon. D. P. J. FERGUSON.-Why system? I believe it would be bad for not ring up Mr. Menzies and ask him? Australia if our Federal system dis­ appeared. In the first place it stands The Hon. L. H. S. THOMPSON.­ as a bulwark against the introduction of Mention has been made of Mr. Menzies, Socialism. Some members regard and I would point out that at the 1953 Socialism as a good thing but members Premiers' conference at Canberra, Mr. of my party do not. I feel that Aus­ Menzies said that it was absurd for a tralia by its land mass -is best suited to State to be asked to shoulder its respon­ a Federal system of government. Many sibilities and at the same time to prevent people contend that Great Britain and it from having independent financial New Zealand get on quite well without responsibilities. If the State has to say a Federal system, but their land mass " please " every year to the Federal is in the vicinity of 100,000 square Government, at some time it will be miles, whereas the Australian land ~ass confronted by the fact that it cannot comprises some 3,000,000 square miles, carry out its responsibilities. In other approximating very closely to the area words we are moving towards a unitary of the United States of America. Canada syste~ of government. That is exempli­ has a land mass of 3,800,000 square fied by the way in which Commonwealth miles. We have a rising standard of expenditure has gone up in th~ last education, and the more people who. are fifteen years. Since 1942, when umform concerned with government and particu­ taxation was introduced, the revenue of larly governmental decisions, the better the Commonwealth Government has in­ it will be for this country. Therefore, creased by leaps and bounds and the the idea of decentralizing government is Commonwealth Budget during those in the interests of Australia rather than years has grown by 533 per cent. where­ having one centralized Government. On as the Budget of Victoria for the same one hand we have centralization and period has risen by only 353 per cent. Socialism and, on the other hand, we In the past three years, Victoria's have decentralization and democracy. deficit has been £11,000,000 whereas the We must make our choice between the Commonwealth's surplus has risen to two. Members of our party are taking £293,000,000. In the same period, up this struggle to protect the people £332,000,000 has been spent by the Com­ and to restore the balance to the Federal monwealth on its own capital works. system. We do not intend to stand by Members may ask whether the Federal quietly and see the system shattered. system can work under those conditions. A little while ago, we were regarded as My belief is that it cannot. voices crying in the wilderness, but the What happens to the other Federal campaign is growing and I feel that the systems of the world? For instance, people of Australia will soon realize what occurs in the United States of that the Federal system is worth America? There the States have the preserving. We are working on these undisputed right to levy their own taxa­ lines in the interests of democracy and tion and 43 of them exercise that right. Federalism-they are closely related-so In Canada, under its Federal system of that advancement in this great land Government there is a slightly different under the Southern Cross may continue unimpeded. set-up. The Provinces have the right to ask the Dominion Government The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER (Doutta to collect taxes. Some avail them­ Galla Province).-At this early hour of selves of this opportunity, but the larger the morning, I do not intend to engage 8578 Appropriation [COUNCIL.] Bill.

in a controversy over the question of The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ Federalism, but I am deeply concerned Western Province).-! should like the about two local matters. I am greatly Minister of Transport to assure mem­ perturbed over the exploitation of the bers that money has been included in people so far as an area of land at the Estimates to repair the Council lift. St. Kilda is concerned. A press The necessary money should be spent announcement was made about this on that project not only to protect the early in the week, but there has been health of the staff but also to con­ no move on the part of the Government venience members. The lavatory we to protect the rights of the people as have would be condemned if it was to that area. I do not think it can be found in any hotel. If the present justified that a large area of the people's Judge of the Licensing Court was told land should be alienated for private that such a lavatory existed in a Mallee interests for a period of 60 years, hotel, a licence for the premises would particularly where it occurs with a small be refused. On some days the area of the foreshore in a locality state of it is disgusting. It is where there is great density of popula­ worn out and should be put into a tion. This matter should not lightly decent condition. Finally, I direct be dismissed by the Government saying attention to the inadequacy of the that the Lands Department has given lighting in this Chamber. Although it a 60-year lease and that should not may be very decorative, it could be be disturbed. On every occasion when improved, and possibly the engineering the rights of the people to land are staff attached to this Parliament could being despoiled, I shall raise my voice check over the electrical wiring and in protest. other fitments to ensure that they are in good working order. The next matter I wish to discuss is the serious erosion occurring at Point Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of Lonsdale. There has been considerable Transport).-! shall take up again controversy over the Queenscliff council the question of the lift :in this building permitting the area known as Royal with a view to seeing what can be done park to be used for camping purposes. to rectify the position. In reply to Mr. This is on the narrowest point of the Slater, who raised the question of a bay, and heavy seas will break through lease at St. Kilda, I point out that the the area. If the erosion is widened, one building in question was in a very can easily contemplate a break-through dilapidated condition. Originally, it that will isolate this land from Queens­ was under the control of a Trust but, as cliff, involving the Government in the that body was unable to provide the re­ cost of building a bridge. I have dis­ quisite finance with which to renovate cussed the matter with the Minister of the building, it was leased to a company Lands, who has promised to do what which agreed to spend approximately he can. £100,000 on it. I understand that it was t.he intention of the proprietors to Sir ARTHUR WARNER.-What had the provide a still-water pool in the strip honorable member to say about the at the front of the building, but that St. Kilda story? My impression is that proved impracticable. Recently, it was it was some kind of an accident. proposed to use the area as a car park, but the St. Kilda council objected to The Hon. WILLIAM SLATER.-It this proposal and it has been discarded. was a shocking accident and I did not speak to the Minister about it. The two The clause was agreed to, as were the matters I have mentioned are of remaining clauses and the schedules. importance, and I ask the Government to give them serious consideration to The Bill was reported to the House prevent the spoliation of the areas in without amendment, and passed through question. · its remaining stages. Adjournment. (5 DECEMBER, 1957.J Adjournment. 3579

ADJOURNMENT. interpret what is said in this Chamber. CHRISTMAS FELICITATIONS-RETIREMENT Perhaps we should be thankful to them OF CHIEF OF HANSARD. also for omitting certain things that would not enhance our speeches. I wish Sir ARTHUR WARNER (Minister of all a merry Christmas and I hope that Transport).-By leave, I move-- honorable members, after a vacation That the Council, at its rising, adjourn with their wives, will return ready to until a day and hour to be fixed by the " fight " again. President, or, if the President is unable to act on account of illness or other cause, The Hon. J. W. GALBALLY (Mel­ by the Chairman of Committees, which time of meeting shall ·be notified to each bourne North Province).-! join with honorable member by telegram or letter. the Minister of Transport in wishing In submitting this motion, I desire, on every member a merry Christmas and behalf of the Government, to express a happy New Year. I thank you, Mr. our thanks to you, Mr. President, for the President, for your excellent services. manner in which you have presided over Honorable members have a very strong the proceedings of this House during bond of affection for you, for your the current session and for the wisdom, tact, understanding, kindliness, courtesy you have extended to mem­ and humour, and I feel that you have bers. I should .like you to know how become almost an institution with us. much all members appreciate your We are very proud of you. action in that regard. I desire also to I should like to pay a special express our appreciation of the capable tribute to the Leader of the House, assistance rendered by Mr. Walters as Sir Arthur Warner, who has been Chairman of Committees. We are very considerate in arranging the busi­ grateful to him for the manner in which ness of the House. He is always he has directed proceedings in Commit­ anxious to meet the convenience of tee and for the tolerance he has dis­ members, and he has been especially played when proceedings might have co-operative in maintaining what every got out of hand. Furthermore, I express member desires to see preserved-the appreciation for the help that I have rights of private members. We wish received from the Leaders of other Sir Arthur a very happy Christmas. parties in this House. Despite the many We extend our felicitations to the arguments that we have had, a good Chairman of Committees, Mr. Dudley spirit exists between the Leaders and Walters, and to the officers of the members of the various parties. House. Mr. Sarah has become some­ Although we may have spoken harsh what of a father-confessor-we come to words in the heat of the moment, we him for advice which he gives freely. respect one another's views, and nothing He is never political and his advice is that may be said in any way diminishes always helpful. Mr. Lyons and Mr. the affection that we have for one Tierney also have rendered valuable another. assistance in their respective spheres. I should like also to thank the I join the Leader of the House officers of the House for the excellent in thanking the Hansard reporting staff, services they render to all members. alsai the attendants, who have been so Sometimes they have a very trying task, good to us throughout the year. I particularly when the House sits into the wish every member of the House a early hours of the morning. They must happy Christmas. Sir Arthur em­ listen to our long speeches and at the phasized that our differences are politi­ same time carry out their routine cal, not personal. We are sent here to duties, which enable the proceedings of put a point of view and I am sure that .the House to be conducted in a proper every honorable member would fight to manner. Finally, I desire to voice a the death for the right to put it fear­ word of praise for the Hansard staff, lessly. That is part of our parliament­ who make an excellent job of some of tary system. The hour is late and so our poor speeches. I congratulate them I conclude by wishing one and all the upon the capable manner in which they very best in the years that lie ahead. 3580 Adjournment. [COUNCIL.] Adjournment.

The Hon. P. T. BYRNES (North­ the doorkeepers. We appreciate tre­ Western Province).-On behalf of the mendously the assistance that we have Country party I join with the Leader of received from everybody. From time to the House and Mr. Galbally in extending time we have our complaints and we good wishes to you, Mr. President, and air them in this Chamber. We take in thanking you sincerely for the a little and we give a little and that is manner in which you have presided the only way we can do our job over the meetings of this House thoroughly. We never believe in missing throughout the year. We have any opportunity to ventilate some griev­ become used to the very high stan­ ance that we feel we have; that does not dards that you have observed in necessarily mean that it is justifiable, the chair and, naturally, take although we always think it is. I them for granted. We are never should like to thank the Leader of the disappointed. I also thank my colleague, House for all the assistance he has Mr. Dudley Walters, for the able manner given us during the year. It is on occa­ in which he has carried out his duties sions like this that we feel we should as Chairman of Committees. We are apologize for disrupting the affairs of the indebted to Mr. Sarah, Mr. Lyons, Mr. House as often as we ·do. However, we Tierney, members of the Hansard staff, act with the best of intentions. and all other officers of the House, for all they have done for us in an efficient I wish also to tell the legally-qualified manner during the year. Lastly, I join members of all parties that we appre­ with the Leader of the House in wish­ ciate the assistance we receive from ing everybody a merry Christmas and a them in connexion with the legal matters prosperous New Year. that must necessarily enter into the discussions. Until I came into the House Members come from all parts of the I did not fully appreciate how necessary State and quite naturally each puts it was for some members at least to forward different points of view· on have a legal background. I certainly many matters. It would be a ghastly hope we will never see the day when place indeed if we all expressed the same Parliament is comprised of all legally­ viewpoint. If I may say so without qualifi.ed members, but it is obvious that being regarded as egotistical, I have a no Parliament would be complete with­ high opinion of the quality of the debates out some persons who have had practice in this Chamber and of the members of in the interpretation of the laws after the House. We have no reason to be we have passed them. I thank Mr. ashamed in any way of the manner in Galbally, Mr. Slater, Mr. Feltham, Mr. which our business is conducted or of Brennan and Mr. McArthur for the the ability shown by honorable members assistance they have given us in the con­ when discussing the problems placed sideration of legal subjects. We extend before them. Like many others, I have to you, Mr. President, to the Leaders of been proud to belong to the Legislative all parties and to other members, our Council and I do not regar.d this occasion best wishes for a merry Christmas and a as a routine one on the final sitting of the prosperous New Year. year. If we have had differences of opinion during the year they have been The PRESIDENT (Sir Clifden Eager). political and not personal. We never -Before putting the motion I should like carry any rancour against anybody. to express my appreciation of the re­ marks made by honorable members The Hon. J. A. LITTLE (Melbourne concerning myself. My task has been North Province).-On behalf of the made very easy and happy by the Democratic Labour party, I should like splendid co-operation I have received to join with the Leader of the House-­ from all honorable members and the Sir Arthur Warner-Mr. Galbally and great assistance given to me ·by Mr. Mr. Byrnes in extending to you, Sir, my Sarah and the other officers at the best wishes for the festive season, and to table. I also wish to thank Mr. Walters Mr. Sarah, Mr. Lyons and Mr. Tierney, for acting as my deputy from time to members of the Hansard staff, and also time in the chair.