Vol. 737 Monday No. 7 21 May 2012

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Israel and Palestine: West Bank Arms Trade Treaty Bangladesh Malawi Canterbury City Council Bill Leeds City Council Bill Nottingham City Council Bill Reading Borough Council Bill City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] City of Westminster Bill [HL] Transport for London Bill [HL] Motions to Resolve Small and Medium Sized Enterprises Public Service Provision Adoption Motions to Approve Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 Motion to Take Note Employment Law Statement Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report Motion to Take Note Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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the centres of terrorism are now centres of economic House of Lords development and large numbers of the barriers and checkpoints have been removed? Monday, 21 May 2012.

2.30 pm Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is quite right to bring forward the good news to balance the Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of St Edmundsbury bad news. Unfortunately, there is a slice of both. He is and Ipswich. right that in Ramallah and related areas industrial activity has increased and major orders are fulfilled, not least for the British market, thanks to the efforts of Israel and Palestine: West Bank the noble Lord, Lord Stone, and others in this House. Question That is a very encouraging side of the West Bank, but there is a discouraging side, of which I am afraid this 2.36 pm constant friction about what the Palestinian farmers may do and—if I may raise an even more controversial Asked By Baroness Brinton point—what the settlers are allowed to do, is the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what negative aspect of an otherwise potentially good story. representations they have made to the Government of Israel following the recent order to Palestinian Lord Hussain: My Lords, in addition to the problem farmers in the West Bank to uproot their olive trees. of trees being uprooted, many Palestinian communities on the West Bank are finding their water sources being The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth diverted to illegal settlements. What are the Government Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, the doing to persuade the Israeli Government to take Government are aware of the recent order by Israeli action against illegal settlers, especially when essential authorities to Palestinian farmers in the West Bank resources, such as water, are being diverted? village of Deir Istiya to uproot 1,400 newly planted olive trees. On 8 May, our embassy in Tel Aviv raised our concerns with the Israeli authorities responsible Lord Howell of Guildford: I think my noble friend is for the Occupied Palestinian Territories. We encourage well aware, because I have said it many times in your and expect Israel to adhere to its obligations under Lordships’ House, that the British Government regard international law. the settlements policy and the expansion of settlements as illegal. We also deplore the recent tendency, which seems to be going against previous trends, of legalising Baroness Brinton: I thank the Minister for his reply. previously illegal settlement outposts. These are again Given that the Israeli Government seem to be changing matters that we raise again and again with our opposite the rules about land ownership on the West Bank at numbers in the Israeli Government. We believe that whim, what further pressure can the UK Government the policy of settlements is one of the barriers to the bring to bear on the Israelis to cease this illegal activity higher purpose we all want to achieve of reopening immediately and to allow the farmers to continue the negotiations and getting a long and lasting settlement cultivation of their trees, which is also their principal of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. economic activity?

Lord Howell of Guildford: I understand the concerns Lord Grocott: My Lords, I am sure that the House of my noble friend, who has direct personal experience will fully understand and sympathise with the difficulty of the situation in this area. There are difficulties in that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has in answering that there all kinds of different rules governing the Questions of this sort. It has been the case for many ownership of land—layer after layer of them arising Ministers from both major political parties over the from the different status of this area over several years. Basically, they have to express concern about decades. This causes confusion and difficulty, and my what is happening, which is the profound and fundamental noble friend is right to identify it. These are the illegality of one country occupying another country’s problems. We keep raising them with the Israeli authorities. land. It seems to everyone who looks closely at these Obviously, if the trees were mature and established, it things that all we seem able to do is express our would be even worse, as ancient olive trees are of great concern and raise the matters with the Israeli authorities. value, but even with these newly planted trees, there Surely, the question should be: at what point do the remains a constant dispute about whether the area is a Government of Israel face any disadvantage whatever—at nature reserve, as the authorities suggest, or an area the moment, there seems to be none—from continuing where planting can properly take place. We shall keep with the illegal settlement activities? monitoring the situation very closely indeed. Lord Howell of Guildford: I am grateful for the Lord Turnberg: Is it not the case that Battir village, sympathy of a former Chief Whip for a Minister when one of the villages in which the olive trees are slated to there are two sides to these questions and an element be removed, is the still the subject of a legal battle and of balance is essential in assessing the realities and no final decision has been taken on it? Is it not also the prospects. There is more that this country can do and case that the economy of the West Bank is growing seeks to do, collectively with our allies such as United quite markedly—at the rate of 6% to 7% per annum— Nations colleagues, within the EU and bilaterally. We productivity is going right up, towns that used to be can press on the various points that may yield some 627 Israel and Palestine: West Bank[LORDS] Arms Trade Treaty 628

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] full support in a speech between now and the opening progress towards reconciliation and settlement. Israel’s of the conference? Will the Minister lend his support security has to be considered. The noble Lord says to those two measures? that there is nothing to lose but always at the back of people’s minds are questions of Israel’s security. At the Lord Howell of Guildford: To be fair, I say to the same time, these are occupied territories. We want to noble Lord, who obviously has been very much at the see an end to that process and a two-state solution that centre of these things, that the full support is most is not undermined by the settlements. These are all certainly there. All along, from the time that this aspirations towards which we can and do work, beyond initiative began in 2008, the British Government, under being concerned day-to-day about specific issues such the previous Labour Administration and under this as the one we are discussing now. Administration, have given very full support to this and we want it brought to the point where we can get a Lord Selsdon: My Lords, I declare an interest as a draft treaty. However, as he knows, it is no use being producer of olive trees. I have only 200 but I assure too starry-eyed about overcoming all the difficulties. your Lordships that an olive tree takes a long time to As to ministerial attendance or ministerial speeches, grow. It has much significance, not least because of we will have to look at that. I know that this is a high Gethsemane and the Mount of Olives. There is politics priority. Of course, my right honourable friend the in this as well. Will my noble friend tell me what the Foreign Secretary has many high priorities and this economic deficit is here? What cost is being incurred most certainly is one of them, so we will have to take a by uprooting these olive trees and what is their value? decision on attendance in due course. Lord Judd: My Lords, does the Minister accept that Lord Howell of Guildford: As we are dealing with the Government and civil servants should be warmly newly planted trees, their value is all in the future. congratulated on their hard work and consistent However, I am grateful to my noble friend for his commitment to achieving this treaty? Does he agree reminder of the significance of the olive tree. I am full that it would be better to have no treaty than an of admiration for his growing them because I was told inadequate, weak treaty? In that context, does he that you could not grow olive trees with decent olives further agree that talk of taking into account the north of Valence in France. criteria, such as human rights, end-use and the rest, is simply not enough? There must be an absolute refusal of permission where these matters are in any kind of Arms Trade Treaty doubt. Question Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is on to 2.43 pm something, which he has been on to before. He has been second to none in arguing the case for a robust Asked By Lord Hannay of Chiswick treaty. Indeed, it is the Government’s view that this To ask Her Majesty’s Government what their treaty should be robust and that a weak treaty which principal objectives will be in the negotiations for would have the effect of legitimising lower standards an arms trade treaty at the United Nations in July. of arms control, arms export, arms import, arms trade and arms transport would be no addition at all. He is entirely correct that this needs to be a robust The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth treaty. We have aimed for that. We believe that certain Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, the things are in reach. Countries which appeared to be United Kingdom is firmly committed to securing a extremely negative to start with are now taking a more robust and legally binding arms trade treaty to regulate positive and constructive attitude, and we aim to make effectively the international trade in conventional arms. substantial progress on a robust treaty. The final treaty should have a demonstrable humanitarian, security and development impact, and be capable of Baroness Williams of Crosby: Perhaps I may say implementation in practice to ensure the broadest how very welcome the reply of the Minister has been, participation of states, including major arms exporters. as was the speech by the Minister for International This should be achieved without creating an undue Development in the past few days. Given that 153 of additional burden for the legitimate defence industry. the 193 member states of the United Nations have strongly supported the arms trade treaty, will the Lord Hannay of Chiswick: I thank the Minister for Minister say whether in the last analysis we would be that helpful reply. I am sure he agrees with his right prepared to walk away from an agreement based on a honourable friend the Minister for Overseas Development, weak consensus? who, when speaking to the International Institute for Strategic Studies last week, said that the Government’s Lord Howell of Guildford: I am not totally clear of principal objective between now and the negotiations my noble friend’s question. She supports what has in July is to “raise the profile” of the arms trade treaty. been achieved and, as she rightly says, a considerable Does the Minister not agree that the two steps that the number of countries have signed up. However, countries Government could best take to do that would be, first, which we thought might be much more reluctant have to announce immediately that the Foreign Secretary not done so. Certainly, there are key issues yet to be will attend the opening of negotiations at the UN in finalised on weapons to be covered and export criteria. July; and, secondly, for the Prime Minister to give his These are difficulties. If my noble friend’s question 629 Arms Trade Treaty[21 MAY 2012] Bangladesh 630 was whether we would walk away if it looked like too Bangladesh weak a treaty, I say that we do not intend that to happen. We intend the treaty to be at least where it is Question now, with broad agreement discussed on many crucial 2.52 pm issues and out of which we can produce a robust treaty. Asked By Lord Harris of Haringey The Lord Bishop of St Edmundsbury and Ipswich: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what diplomatic My Lords, we have long been supportive of a robust representations they have made to the Government attitude to such a treaty. Can the Minister offer any of Bangladesh about the disappearance and alleged advice as to whether the Government are able to help kidnapping of Mr Ilias Ali and other opposition and support some of those fragile nations which are politicians. emerging from conflict or are still in conflict to be able to take part fully in these negotiations? They have so The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth much to gain from a robust treaty. Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, I am not going to have much time for any chillaxing today. We are concerned about the disappearance of Mr Ilias Lord Howell of Guildford: These fragile nations Ali. On 9 May, our High Commissioner to Bangladesh certainly have much to gain and we want to see their and ambassadors of eight other European countries participation. Like all nations, they have a legitimate called on the Bangladesh authorities to conduct thorough desire to defend themselves. One must be realistic: if investigations into disappearances, including that of one wants to protect people and nations, some hard-power Mr Ali. In meetings with the Prime Minister’s Office defence—in other words, weaponry—is needed. There and senior officials in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has to be support for sensible, non-repressive arms we have urged the Government to do all that they can supplies across international barriers, which can support to locate Mr Ali and investigate the circumstances of the proper protection of young nations as they struggle his disappearance. to establish themselves and achieve stability against incursions from outside. Lord Harris of Haringey: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that reply and for the expressions of concern Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, in their vision by the British Government, but is he aware that there for Britain’s economic future, do coalition Ministers are a series of similar cases, including that of Mr Nazmul foresee us earning our living to a diminishing extent by Islam, a local leader of the Bangladesh Nationalist contributing to the saturation of unstable areas of the Party, who was abducted and murdered last December, world with weapons? In the process, we tie ourselves and that according to the BBC 30 people have disappeared into long-term relationships with unsavoury regimes in that way in the past year? There are allegations, too, while committing disproportionate amounts of resources that the police’s Rapid Action Battalion is involved. In that would otherwise be used to construct a more those circumstances, do Her Majesty’s Government balanced and responsible economy. accept that this reflects very badly on Bangladesh and its obviously fairly fragile democracy? What support can be given to ensure that the individuals concerned Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord paints a are rescued and restored to their families and that this bad picture of the international arms trade, and it is sort of occurrence stops? bad—largely because of illegal arms trading, with blind eyes being turned by Governments. In our case, Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is right we have one of the most rigid supervisions of criteria that this kind of development reflects badly on the applications for arms export in the world. We operate political culture of any society in which opposition on a very close case-by-case basis, and it is generally leaders are arrested or worse. He asked what can be agreed looking back over the last two tumultuous done. The EU had a heads of mission visit in February years in the Arab spring that very rigid controls have to Bangladesh and stated its concerns very clearly. We broadly operated. Certainly, we have received no evidence are fully behind that. In addition, our senior Ministers, to the contrary. But his broader picture of a world including my right honourable friend the Foreign awash in arms is precisely the one that must cease and Secretary, have been in direct personal contact with to which this arms trade treaty, if we can get it in the senior officials, including the Foreign Minister of form we want, will make some contribution. It will not Bangladesh, and we take every opportunity to express cure all the problems but it will make some contribution. our worries. It is a concern for us. People may ask why we are worried about Bangladesh. It is an important Lord Trefgarne: Will my noble friend make available nation and the destination of one of DfID’s largest the current draft of this important document so that programmes, with £1 billion due to go to support we can all express our views on it? Bangladesh development from this country over the next four years. It is a nation that we want to see stable and prosperous and to build on its economic achievements, Lord Howell of Guildford: I will have to see whether which are beginning to show dividends. That is the there is a draft at this stage. The next stage of conferring rather encouraging side of an otherwise bad story. in July is aimed at creating a draft, upon which thereafter a treaty could be built. If there are documents that can Lord Hussain: My Lords, I had the opportunity to be usefully circulated, I will certainly look and see meet Mr Ilias Ali in Luton when he visited the United what can be done. Kingdom a few months ago and raised human rights 631 Bangladesh[LORDS] Malawi 632

[LORD HUSSAIN] release £10 million in urgent health sector support and issues in Bangladesh with him, as I have with the a further £20 million in previously agreed funding. Minister concerned. Sadly, we hear that Mr Ali has The Secretary of State for International Development disappeared, along with his driver. However, this is will discuss Malawi’s further requirements when he not an isolated case. The New York-based Human visits shortly. Rights Watch has expressed concern over the disappearance of at least 22 people this year. A Dhaka- Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale: I thank the based organisation says that more than 50 people have Minister for that Answer and welcome the support disappeared since 2010. Security agencies, including that has already been given by the UK Government to the— the new Government in Malawi. President Banda has graciously praised the early successes of her predecessor Noble Lords: Question! but has taken swift action to rectify some of his mistakes. The new president is very firmly focused on Lord Hussain: Can these cases be investigated by an economic management, building better international international human rights organisation, and can we relations and improving governance in the country. pressurise the Bangladeshi Government to put an end On his forthcoming visit, will the Secretary of State to such human rights abuses? Finally, can the British for International Development raise the issue of general Government ask— budget support from the UK and from the European Union as both sums would make a considerable difference Noble Lords: No! if they were reintroduced before the end of this financial Lord Hussain: Fair enough; those two will do. year? Lord Howell of Guildford: A whole range of concerns Baroness Northover: The noble Lord’s involvement have been expressed by my noble friend. I understand in and support for Malawi is well known, as is that of his feelings. This is not a good story at all. He asks the Scottish Government. We very much welcome the whether we will press for impartial and transparent peaceful and constitutional transition following the investigations into these disappearances. We do so, previous president’s death in April. Early discussions have done so, and will continue to do so. In some with President Banda, who is the second female head cases, we will be pressing at an open door and there of state in sub-Saharan Africa, have been very encouraging will be investigations, but in other cases we may not be and we look forward to working with her to resolve so successful. However, one has to accept that the many of these problems. The noble Lord is absolutely drive for ending this dark atmosphere over Bangladeshi right: she has shown a lot of initiative in moving politics must come from within that nation. We support various areas forward. I am sure that the Government Bangladesh in its efforts to stabilise its politics, to of Malawi will raise with the Secretary of State the move towards the best kind of elections at the next issues that the noble Lord has mentioned. The Secretary appropriate time and to develop and lift its people out of State is looking carefully at how best to support of poverty and the appalling environmental challenges Malawi. However, it is one thing to say things; it is that they also face and with which, sadly, we are all too another to make sure that certain changes are delivered. familiar. Lord Chidgey: My noble friend will be aware that a Lord Avebury: My Lords, will my noble friend ask step change in economic management and governance the Bangladesh Government whether they will issue standards in Malawi is critical, not just to bring immediate an invitation to the United Nations working group on relief to its people through the NGOs on the ground disappearances, which is the proper body to investigate but to secure the release of some $750 million in grant not just the recent disappearances mentioned in the aid, which is currently blocked and is clearly needed in Question but those going back a long way, most of the general budget and elsewhere. Importantly, securing which are attributed to the RAB? investment to interconnect Malawi and Mozambique’s national grids, for example, which are essential to Lord Howell of Guildford: That sounds like a very stabilising Malawi’s industry, must also be considered. positive thought. I will certainly consider it and discuss What action is DfID taking with resident NGOs, such it with my colleagues. as World Vision and others, to ramp up financial accountability and good-governance standards in Malawi Malawi to ensure that inward investment such as that will start to flow? Question 2.57 pm Baroness Northover: My noble friend is quite right to say that these issues need to be addressed, and poor Asked by Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale governance is of course the root cause of much poverty. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when general DfID is putting a considerable amount into seeking to budget support for the Government of Malawi will address that issue, so that the Government of Malawi be restored following the changes recently announced can be held to account—not least in the way that they in that Government. manage their public finances, to which he referred. We are pleased that the new president is now talking to Baroness Northover: My Lords, it is too soon to say Mozambique about restarting discussions on the energy if and when general budget support will be restored. interconnector, which is encouraging and is important However, the UK Government have already agreed to to industry in the area. However, first and foremost, it 633 Malawi[21 MAY 2012] Transport for London Bill [HL] 634 is important to try to address the economic problems England has, for example, sent technical support, as in Malawi. DfID is in constant contact with Malawi, Malawi has just devalued its currency. Therefore, it is which is also in constant contact with the IMF. An in a better situation in some ways but in a very volatile IMF team is there right now. situation in others. International donors and the IMF are acutely aware of the need to provide support in Lord Hughes of Woodside: Is there not common these circumstances and to make sure that the funding agreement in all quarters of the House that it is is there so that some of the adjustments to the economy essential that our overseas development money is spent can be brought forward and the changes that President efficiently and without corruption? Does the Minister Banda has suggested can then be better delivered. accept that good governance is essential in order for that to be done? Will she therefore make sure that budget support, which is a very important part of Canterbury City Council Bill good governance, is restored as soon as possible? Leeds City Council Bill Baroness Northover: The noble Lord is absolutely right that aid money must be used well, and that is why the general budget support was removed. Until we can Nottingham City Council Bill be certain that the protections are there, it would not make sense to restore budget support. However, money Reading Borough Council Bill is going in, meanwhile, in terms of development, and the contribution from DfID to Malawi is as great as ever but is channelled through other routes. City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL]

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I declare an City of Westminster Bill [HL] interest as patron of the Chauncy Maples Trust, which is renovating a British-built ship, built in the 19th century, on Lake Malawi to provide healthcare Transport for London Bill [HL] to 120,000 people around the lake who currently Motions to Resolve receive no healthcare. Malawi is, of course, one of the 10 poorest nations in the world. Half the population 3.05 pm earns less than a dollar a day, and this aid is very important. Do we now have a full high commission Moved By The Chairman of Committees there to ensure that we are able to monitor things correctly, including money going down the wrong Canterbury City Council Bill channels, to make sure that money is applied properly That this House resolves that the promoters of to help this country in the way that it needs? the Canterbury City Council Bill, which was originally introduced in the House of Commons in Session Baroness Northover: It is indeed extremely important 2007-08 on 22 January 2008, should have leave to to make sure that that kind of support is in place, and proceed with the Bill in the current Session in DfID has been supporting healthcare in Malawi very accordance with the provisions of Private Business strongly. The noble Lord will be aware that the previous Standing Order 150B (Revival of bills). high commissioner was expelled by the former president, but the UK has decided to appoint a new high Leeds City Council Bill commissioner—a process that is going through at the That this House resolves that the promoters of moment. Meanwhile, the new president has decided to the Leeds City Council Bill, which was originally appoint a new high commissioner to the United introduced in the House of Commons in Kingdom—and that, we hope, will help. Session 2007-08 on 22 January 2008, should have leave to proceed with the Bill in the current Session Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, I join in accordance with the provisions of Private Business the Minister in welcoming the leadership in Malawi of Standing Order 150B (Revival of bills). Africa’s second woman president, Her Excellency Joyce Banda. Is it not clear that if economic catastrophe is Nottingham City Council Bill to be averted in Malawi—a country in which 39% of the population lives on less than a dollar a day—she That this House resolves that the promoters of will need a lot of sustained assistance? In those conditions, the Nottingham City Council Bill, which was originally will the Government seek not only to encourage donors introduced in the House of Commons in Session to release funds for Malawi but to discourage the 2007-08 on 22 January 2008, should have leave to current IMF mission from any recommendation that proceed with the Bill in the current Session in would further devalue the currency and therefore inflict accordance with the provisions of Private Business potentially ruinous extra inflation on the economy of Standing Order 150B (Revival of bills). Malawi? Reading Borough Council Bill Baroness Northover: The noble Baroness is quite That this House resolves that the promoters of right. With these encouraging signs, it is extremely the Reading Borough Council Bill, which was originally important that President Banda is supported in seeking introduced in the House of Commons in Session to deliver these changes. I note that the Bank of 2007-08 on 22 January 2008, should have leave to 635 Transport for London Bill [HL][LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 636

proceed with the Bill in the current Session in Adoption accordance with the provisions of Private Business Standing Order 150B (Revival of bills). Motion to Approve 3.06 pm City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] Moved By Lord Strathclyde That this House resolves that the promoters of the City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL], That it is desirable that a Select Committee be which was originally introduced in this House in appointed to consider the statute law about adoption, Session 2010-12 on 24 January 2011, should have and to make recommendations, and that the committee leave to proceed with the Bill in the current Session do report by 28 February 2013. in accordance with the provisions of Private Business Standing Order 150B (Revival of bills). Motion agreed.

City of Westminster Bill [HL] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 That this House resolves that the promoters of Motion to Take Note the City of Westminster Bill [HL], which was originally introduced in this House in Session 2008-09 on 3.07 pm 22 January 2009, should have leave to proceed with Moved By Baroness Garden of Frognal the Bill in the current Session in accordance with the provisions of Private Business Standing Order 150B That this House takes note of the 2012 Olympic (Revival of bills). and Paralympic Games. Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, 2012 is a Transport for London Bill [HL] very special year for Britain with three historic events That this House resolves that the promoters of to look forward to: first, the Diamond Jubilee, bringing the Transport for London Bill [HL], which was the nation together to celebrate the 60-year reign of originally introduced in this House in Session 2010-12 Her Majesty the Queen, the second-longest-serving on 24 January 2011, should have leave to proceed monarch in British history; secondly, the London with the Bill in the current Session in accordance 2012 Festival, the UK’s largest ever festival of arts, with the provisions of Private Business Standing culture and creativity, which will run throughout the Order 150B (Revival of bills). summer with artists joining us from all over the world; and, thirdly, the Olympic and Paralympic Games. The Motions agreed. greatest show on earth is coming to the UK. London is making history by becoming the first city ever to host the modern Games for a third time—1908, 1948 Small and Medium-sized Enterprises and 2012. With the arrival of the Olympic flame over Motion to Approve the weekend, the countdown to an extraordinary period for the country has well and truly begun. We want London 2012 to be an outstanding Games 3.06 pm that enhances our global reputation. We also want it Moved By Lord Strathclyde to be a Games for everyone, with opportunities for people to join in the spirit of celebrations wherever That it is desirable that a Select Committee be they live, whatever their age and whatever their interests. appointed to consider Her Majesty’s Government’s Nowhere is this better reflected than in the torch relay, assistance and promotion of the export of products which will visit more than a thousand cities, towns and and services by small and medium-sized enterprises, villages across all four nations. The Olympic flame will and to make recommendations, and that the committee come within 10 miles of 95% of the population, while do report by 28 February 2013. giving us a chance to showcase the people and places that make Britain great. The coming weeks will provide Motion agreed. an extraordinary advertisement for the different regions and nations of the UK, and we want to maximise the Public Service Provision tourism benefits as much as possible. Of course, the arrival of the torch also focuses our Motion to Approve minds on how close the Games themselves are. With fewer than 70 days until the opening ceremony of the 3.06 pm Olympic Games and with exactly 100 days until the Moved By Lord Strathclyde Paralympics begin, I am pleased to say that our preparations for the Games are in a very good place. That it is desirable that a Select Committee be I should like to give your Lordships an update on appointed to consider public service provision in four key areas of preparation. The first is around the the light of demographic change, and to make construction and planning of the event. Anyone who recommendations, and that the committee do report has visited east London cannot fail to see the by 28 February 2013. transformation of the skyline across the Lee valley. A series of iconic new sporting venues is complete, such Motion Agreed. as the Olympic stadium, the striking aquatic centre, 637 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[21 MAY 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 638 the velodrome, the Copper Box, Eton Manor and the The new £1.43 billion privately funded Westfield shopping Lee Valley White Water Canoe Centre which have centre opened in Stratford in September 2011, providing already successfully hosted world-class test events. 10,000 jobs. It had more than 1 million visitors in the The quality and timeliness of our preparations have first fortnight after opening. Six out of eight permanent been recognised by the International Olympic Committee venues on the park have had their future secured which has praised our efforts on each of a succession beyond the Games. No previous host city has come of inspection visits. The Olympic and Paralympic close to this. Legacy operators for the other two programme remains on time and on budget. Of the permanent venues—the Olympic stadium and the original £9.3 billion, around £500 million remains as international broadcast centre and main press centre—are uncommitted contingency. The big build has been being actively sought. Plans for the future of the park, finished and the Olympic delivery authority has delivered led by the London Legacy Development Corporation more than £900 million-worth of savings. These savings under the stewardship of the mayor, are going well, have allowed us to meet other essential Games needs and we look forward to hearing from the noble Baroness, without breaking the overall £9.3 billion envelope. Lady Ford, on these matters. The ODA’s efforts represent a great advertisement Five world-class permanent sporting venues—the for the British construction industry which is now Olympic stadium, the aquatics centre, the velodrome, winning other major contracts. It’s excellent health the Copper Box, and Eton Manor—will provide and safety record has set new standards for the industry community facilities as well as being used for elite and its recruitment and training initiatives, such as the sport. There will be a wider economic legacy for the Women into Construction project have broken new entire UK. The Olympic Delivery Authority alone has ground. LOCOG has been very successful in raising awarded £6 billion-worth of contracts to build and the money it needs from the private sector despite the supply the Games to over 1,500 suppliers. Over 98% are difficult economic conditions. LOCOG has secured in UK-based companies, half of them based outside excess of £1 billion from international sponsors, broadcast London. Many more companies have won work in the rights holders and domestic sponsors and has generated supply chains of the ODA. unprecedented ticket demand both for the Olympics and Paralympics. More than 7 million tickets have Hosting the Olympic and Paralympic Games will been sold so far, setting the scene for full venues at provide a unique opportunity for the UK to showcase Games time and a wonderful atmosphere for the the best of its manufacturing sector, innovation and competing athletes. creativity, and to attract new visitors, investment and export. The British Business Embassy at Lancaster The second area is safety and security. Our priority House will showcase the UK as an outstanding global is to deliver a safe and secure Games for all and we investment destination and a springboard for global have adopted a no-compromise approach to safety growth. The programme of events which they are and security. The UK has an excellent record of policing hosting includes a Global Investment Conference and major events, and the Games will be no exception. a series of sector-specific days, aimed at elite overseas However, the Olympics and Paralympics are first and businesses, along with UK businesses with innovative foremost a celebration of sport. While the Government products and services to export, on an invitation-only will ensure that this celebration is safe and secure for basis. The Embassy includes the “Imagine: Great Ideas participants and visitors, the security response will be Made Real” digital showcase to challenge perceptions proportionate and in keeping with the culture and of the UK and demonstrate its creative and innovative spirit of the Games. We are keen to strike the right strengths. balance between the celebration of the Games and the need to keep everyone safe. This year also presents a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity The third area is transport. The £6.5 billion transport for the tourism industry in the UK. The “GREAT” infrastructure improvements leveraged by the Games campaign seeks to stress the excellence of our culture, will be of long-term benefit to everybody. The key heritage, sport, and shopping and of the holiday experience elements have been delivered before the Games have in Britain. We want to reinvigorate our appeal in begun, including major infrastructure improvements important markets where we have seen decline, such as to build capacity across rail and London Underground. the United States, and to build our brand image in Examples are: £125 million upgrade to Stratford regional vital emerging markets like Brazil, India and China. station which has trebled the station’s capacity. We are We want to ensure our tourism industry remains expecting some 120,000 people to be using the station one of the largest in the world. In addition to attracting at peak times. There is also the extension of the North inward tourism, we want to encourage our domestic London Line and improvements to the Docklands tourism offer to thrive and to promote the staycation Light Railway. There is a new high speed domestic rail effect. VisitEngland is asking tourism businesses to service from Kent to Stratford International station, give visitors another reason to stay in the UK by which opened in December 2009 and the enhancement encouraging them to offer 20.12% off and other great of 75 kilometres of east London’s cycle routes as a offers. This means 20.12% off accommodation stays, result of £10 million investment by the ODA. meals, and other experiences. Offers and deals could Fourthly, I turn to the legacy of Games. This above include three nights for the price of two, or two-for-one all, as the IOC has recognised, marks London 2012 as entry at attractions. I fear the mathematicians among different from previous Games. The physical legacy is us will realise that those particular discounts do not impressive. The athletes’ village will provide more than entirely reflect a 20.12% discount, but they will understand 2,800 homes, 35% of which will be affordable housing. the spirit of these offers. 639 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 640

Lord Cormack: I am sure everybody would welcome Before I close, I should note that the noble Baroness, the discounts, but would it not also be a good thing to Lady Grey-Thompson, withdrew her name from the discourage selling of the torch flames? speakers list out of courtesy to the House because, with 100 days to go to the Paralympics, she was unable to stay for the whole debate. On behalf of the House, I Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, that may thank her for observing that courtesy and express well be the case, but the torches are actually the appreciation for all her achievements and for her work property of the people running, and I do not think the on the Paralympics, and assure her that she will always Government could get directly involved in that. be welcome to raise any matter, either inside or outside As part of the 2012 legacy, we also wish to reverse the Chamber. the decline in sports participation. The Government The Government acknowledge the work of the launched a new youth sport strategy on 10 January previous Administration in the planning and organisation with £1 billion of lottery and Exchequer funding. of the Games. We are grateful for the cross-party This will mean a much greater focus on young support in the work that has still to be done, and for people, particularly 14 to 25 year-olds, and this the healthy scrutiny from your Lordships, particularly strategy aims to deliver: consistent growth in sports given the levels of Olympic and Paralympic expertise participation in the 14 to 25 age range and across the that we have in the House. I look forward to hearing adult population; an excellent sporting experience to all contributions in the debate, and to the UK delivering keep people playing sport; high quality talent development a Games of which we can all be proud. to create a better talent pool and help those with real potential to make the grade; and a growth in participation 3.22 pm by people who have disabilities, including the most talented. Lord Haskel: My Lords, I add my congratulations The School Games is the Government’s new framework to the Olympic Delivery Authority on delivering the for competitive school sport. It is a key strategy for Olympic park to LOCOG on time and, as the creating a meaningful sporting legacy from the 2012 Minister said, on budget. We should congratulate not Olympic and Paralympic Games and to increase the only the main contractors but the subcontractors—the number of pupils participating in competitive sport. suppliers of the products and the materials that have More than half the schools in England—around 13,000— gone into creating the Olympic park. It looks wonderful have signed up, including primary, secondary, special and is a tribute to the companies that have worked so and independent schools. The UK and Brazil, which hard. will host the next summer Olympic and Paralympic I agree with Hugh Robertson MP, who wrote in the Games in 2016, have jointly written to the IOC and to February Olympic Quarterly Report: the International Paralympic Committee to ask them “One of the greatest adverts for the UK from the London to encourage future bidders for the Olympic and 2012 Games is the Olympic Park itself, which showcases the best Paralympic Games and Youth Olympic Games to of British architecture, engineering and construction”. have in place a competition structure similar to that of The Minister repeated this. It is indeed a wonderful the School Games. showcase for our companies, which supplied not The International Inspiration initiative is delivering only the innovative products about which the Minister on the promise made by my noble friend Lord Coe in spoke but also the recyclable materials—products Singapore in 2005 to, that make this a green Olympics. The floor coverings, “reach young people all over the world and connect them to the waste bins and much of the pipework are all inspirational power of the Games, so they are inspired to choose recyclable. The new road surfaces use waste material. sport”. The energy centre burns waste material. New materials The programme develops a series of activities tailored were developed for the roofing membranes, for the to each country’s needs, to introduce a more systematic 80,000 seats in the main stadium and for the 6,000 approach to delivering sport in school and community seats in the velodrome. The water and sewerage services settings for all age groups, based on practices that are most ingenious. As the Minister said, it is a showcase have been successful in the UK. To date, more than for the best of British industry. What a good story we 12 million young people in 20 countries have been have to tell—a story that British companies should tell reached through the International Inspiration programme. out loud. They can supply these materials and their Since 2007, the programme has helped train 100,000 products to construction companies in all parts of the teachers, coaches and young leaders. Thanks to the world. phenomenal efforts of my noble friend Lord Bates, the However, they cannot tell it. Why? In order to get Olympic Truce has a much higher profile than in the business, companies had to sign an agreement that previous Games. We look forward to hearing more they would not publicise their products without permission from him about support for the Truce. from LOCOG. Despite many applications, none of We are not complacent and recognise that challenges the companies that supplied the products and materials still lie ahead in 2012. For example, during the course that I have mentioned was given permission. A few of the Games we will be hosting 26 simultaneous others have. What is more, companies are not even world championships; converting for the Paralympics going to get permission after the Games finish. Why? and then hosting another 20 events; and coping with LOCOG says that it is because, quite rightly, it is millions of extra journeys on our transport systems. protecting the rights of the generous sponsors. However, However, the omens are good for us to deliver a safe, no one is asking to use the logo, not even the phrase successful and memorable Olympic and Paralympic “London Olympics 2012”. They are not allowed to Games, with legacy benefits for the whole country. show any association with the Olympic Games. Even 641 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[21 MAY 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 642 using the word “Olympics” or the number “2012” is 3.30 pm banned. Permission to publicise this information has been turned down. Lord Addington: My Lords, I thought I would hear nothing new about the Olympics during this debate. The Minister spoke of the torch relay. To give her a The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, has surprised me with flavour of what is going on, I refer noble Lords to a the idea of flame-grilled breakfasts not complying report in this morning’s Guardian. When the Olympic with the rules. However, I remember when we first torch started out from Plymouth, LOCOG officials discussed the use of the Olympic symbol in this House—it confiscated leaflets advertising an Olympic breakfast was a good few years ago and I think the noble Lord at a local café. The officials said—wait for it—that was part of the Government of the time. Protection of “flaming torch bacon and egg baguettes”, which were the Olympic symbol is very entrenched in the Olympic on the menu, contravened branding guidelines. Does movement. I will say no more because the noble Lord, the Minister really think that firms such as McDonald’s Lord Moynihan, is in the Chamber. We have possibly and Coca-Cola are concerned about calling a bacon the greatest expert on this subject on the government and egg baguette “flaming torch”? Are the Government Back Benches—or at least a far greater expert than really going to defend the ridiculous? me. Defending the Olympic symbol and gaining the best revenue from it is an interesting subject and there One indignant subcontractor got his trade association has been a great deal of movement on it. to write to the Prime Minister. It asked him to justify When we look back at preparations for the Olympics his claim that: we have to look back at the process we have gone “We expect these events to generate at least £1 billion for through. Nobody expected us to get the Games or at British businesses and they are vital to secure our long-term least nobody admitted that they expected us to get return to sustainable growth”. them. When we did we were surprised. I thought we had done something very good in preparing the bid as How much easier it would be to make this happen if it made us address planning and structural changes companies could tell potential customers about their and to look seriously at them. It came on the back of a products and demonstrate how well they work. A tie successful Commonwealth Games and unsuccessful manufacturer wrote to me last week saying that his bids. It was the first soft legacy from the unsuccessful company had produced a fabric which showed the bids. The real question is how we carry on the things three Olympic Games that have taken place in Britain, we gained from this, especially the soft legacy and the and they wanted to produce a tie with it. However, planning. LOCOG would not let the company call it an “Olympic tie”, or anything of that name, and so it has had to call The noble Baroness, Lady Ford, will undoubtedly it a sporting tie. Yes, we do still produce fabrics and be able to tell us more about the bricks-and-mortar ties in this country. The Minister said that the Olympic approach. However, the thing of great interest we can Park should be a showcase. Should it not also be a take away from the Games and which will give a shop window? long-lasting legacy is the cultural change about how we use big events and learn from them for the smaller The response to the letter came from Mark Prisk at events that follow, which are still of world significance. BIS. He agrees that the Olympics should be a showcase For instance, the Cultural Olympiad, the Olympic for British business and points out that some of these festival, will provide months of entertainment and products have been included in the Beyond 2012 legacy value—how do we learn to piggyback events successfully document and the suppliers directory. He considers to get the best out of them? How do we learn to use this to be proportionate. Proportionate to what? The advertising over and over again to reinforce a message? proportionate fact is that the taxpayers paid 90% of We must take this into account. the cost and the sponsors 10%. I will not labour the We have been greatly successful in making sure that party political points that can be drawn from this; I everybody has bought into the idea that this is an just await the Minister’s reply. important event—even if you hate it. Even if you cannot stand the idea of the Olympics it will change This matter was drawn to my attention in my capacity your life in certain ways. Everybody expects to gain as the honorary president of the Materials Knowledge some positives—that is the real thing that has come Transfer Network, a commercial and technological out of it. As for the process of the bid itself, apparently organisation of some 4,500 businesses, universities the noble Lord, Lord Coe, congratulated me on coming and research organisations, all working to improve the out with the most unusual compliment he had ever materials in our lives—and they are angry. Why are heard when I said, “Thank you for making the Olympic they angry? If the Government really cared about this, project dull”. Nothing has gone very badly wrong. they would have cleared it up months ago. I am angry The noble Baroness, Lady Ford, has an expression on because, instead, someone like me has to try to shame her face, in which case problems have been kept quiet. Ministers into doing something about it at the last We gone through the process of making sure the minute. Games have been delivered on time and on budget. There are 68 days left until the opening of the Whatever bumps and bangs there have been, that is Games. Will the Government make good their rhetoric how you will ultimately be judged. If we have done and take steps to allow British businesses to use the that, what else can we do? Olympics as a shop window for all the wonderful We have annoyed a lot of journalists who had materials and products they have supplied—and also doom and gloom stories on budgets ready to be printed allow cafés to serve celebratory breakfasts? or sent to various people, but what else are we going to 643 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 644

[LORD ADDINGTON] conversation with a senior Minister who was part of get out of this in the long term? One of the real the bid team. I asked him how he had managed to benefits we have already taken, and it is very appropriate persuade the Treasury to give its consent to the bid we raise it today because we are only 100 days away and he said, “We managed to persuade Gordon that from the start of the Paralympic Games, is that the we could not possibly win”. Paralympics have come to be seen as a partner on even terms, or at least close to it. That is something I did Lord Addington: My Lords, the management of not expect to see in my lifetime. The “Does he take politicians, particularly those in the Treasury, is an art sugar?” attitude towards the Paralympics was certainly form that everybody else in government tries to embrace. there at first. The attitude of, “Isn’t it jolly good we are I think that emphasises my point rather than takes doing something we are quite good at?” and “You away from it. mean people in wheelchairs can do that?”. People now appreciate that these are athletes trained to the peak of I look forward to seeing how we learn and carry on their capacity striving on even terms with people from with this. Are we going to manage to keep the initiative all around the world to achieve something extraordinary. going? Are we going to keep the interest in sport and That is taken as read in other forms of sporting sporting activity going? Can the Government give us activity at the elite level. It has transformed our perception examples of how they plan to take this on board? How and process. If we can take that and go on, we will can people who are not in government at the moment have done something very good. guarantee to support this progress? How can we guarantee that we all talk to each other about what we do next? On the subject of sponsors, I spoke to people from We came together around a good project; we did not Sainsbury’s the other day at a reception and asked think we would but we were going to have a go at it. them what they get out of this—not what they give. Can we guarantee to do something else with it? That is After a little bit of nagging, I got a very honest the next big challenge. answer: “Yes, it helps in marketing. Yes, it helps to make people in our stores feel better about themselves, which makes them better employees. Ultimately it is 3.39 pm about something that is bigger than us, that makes us Lord Higgins: My Lords, this is a very well timed part of the community—that is what we get out of it. debate. The torch relay is now well under way and it And it improves sales”. I may get told off by one or seems to be received extremely well as it tours the two people but I think that is worth a few tickets to the country. A mere take note Motion may sound a little event, so I say thank you to the sponsors and everybody unenthusiastic, but I do not think that can be said of who has been involved throughout the process. They my noble friend the Minister’s opening remarks, which have done something which has benefited us. reflect the growing level of excitement as the opening Probably the only real grumble about the Olympic of the Games approaches. process has been about tickets. If you are struggling to Flying in to London City Airport today, it was very make a story out of this, it shows how well things have noticeable that there really has been regeneration in gone. There was a problem with the ticket allocation the very desolate part of the East End where the because it was not designed for a total sell-out within Olympic site was very sensibly located. As my noble seconds of it opening: too high a demand crashing friend said, the major architectural features—namely, systems; the fact that people like myself who thought the aquatics stadium, the velodrome and the main we had registered in time and would get the tickets we stadium—are all very different and have been well wanted have not got them—I am available for any received. Will my noble friend update us on the stadium returns. Now the Olympics organisers are saying if itself? Athletics has been something of a Cinderella you have not got them or you have only a few in the sport compared with some others in the country and sports that probably were not your first choice, you are we desperately need a national athletics stadium. The not eligible for the next round. They are spreading it stadium’s design seems very good, but it is important out. There is something good coming from this. Are that, whoever eventually takes it over, it should be we going to learn how to manage demand better in used not merely for track but for field events. If we are future? Maybe there will be never be another demand going to have a football operation there as well—my like the Olympics but learning to manage expectation noble friend encouraged me to say this—putting shot of demand is something else that has come from this. puts and so on in the middle of the football pitch The Olympics are now a real thing. The torch relay during the weekend may not be a terribly good way of has started. The planning has stopped; we are now in generating a suitable environment. the delivery phase. The important thing about the I certainly look forward to the Games. My noble Olympics now is that we relax and enjoy it but also friend stressed the commercial rather than the sporting remember that we are going to take on these lessons aspects. I hope that our team does extremely well and that we have learnt and prove that, over two successive we should give it every possible support, but we must Governments of different political persuasions, as a recognise that medals are not easy to get and the nation we can carry something through. That is probably degree of competition is perhaps far greater now than the biggest legacy going—that we have that capacity ever before. Perhaps I may be nostalgic for a moment as a nation. and say that the environment is very different from that in 1948, when we had no legislation whatever on Lord Grade of Yarmouth: I declare an interest: I was the subject and no sponsors. One must stress that the in Singapore as part of the bid team. One of the most Games were entirely amateur; they did not have the important lessons that I learnt from that was in degree of professionalism which they have now. That 645 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[21 MAY 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 646 is a considerable transformation which brings with it various shapes and forms. That should be the best some problems. The 1948 Games took place at a time legacy from the Games. It means that we will have to of extreme austerity. I think that the amount of meat provide the facilities. In that context, the proposals to provided for one day for a member of the American change planning laws, and so on, should make it clear visiting athletic team was roughly the same as that that if planning permission is given which eliminates a rationed to a family for a month. In preparing for sporting facility it is replaced with something of equal those Games, I remember not having a proper vest value. because we had run out of clothing coupons. It was a All those are issues for the future. Meanwhile, we very different atmosphere and the organisers did a must hope that our team does well. We must encourage remarkable job in all the circumstances. them in every way possible. Finally, we should congratulate, One of the effects of the change from amateurism not least, those in this House who have been actively to professionalism is a real problem with drugs. There involved in the whole operation—in the same way that was no point in taking drugs in 1948 because one saw Lord Burghley and others were back in 1948. That is a little value in finding that one had won because one good tradition. I think that they have done a very had cheated, whereas once the Games are professionalised, good job and I hope that the fruits of their success there is a growing danger of people being tempted to give us a major national event of which we can all be take drugs. In that context—my noble friend Lord proud. Moynihan may care to say something about this—the British Olympic Association has been absolutely right 3.48 pm to say that we should have a complete ban. If someone is guilty of a serious drug offence, having been properly Baroness Ford: My Lords, I thought, when the investigated and so on, the only way to deter to them is Minister opened the debate and was talking about the to have a complete ban. It is absurd to give them a great events of this summer, that she might have second chance. All that does is encourage them to have mentioned that Chelsea had won the Champions League a first chance and hope that they are not found out. I on Saturday night. This Peer certainly had a very strongly support what the BOA has said, and I hope happy husband—icing on the cake of a great sporting that we can get international agreement on it. It is summer. quite absurd that we should not seek to ban the use of More seriously, this is the last time we will debate drugs. If people who have been found to contravene the London 2012 Olympic Games in your Lordships’ the rules are in the Olympics, I hope that we do not House before the opening ceremony on 27 July. As we end up with a 100-metres race where half the competitors know, many Members of your Lordships’ House have have been guilty of previous drug offences. We do not played important roles in securing, planning and delivering know what the long-term effects of taking drugs are, the platform for the Games. In the next few weeks, but it is extremely unlikely that the muscles that one those roles will extend to staging the Games and to has built up with steroids disappear very quickly. I delivering Team GB’s performance. We all hope for a hope that we can take a tougher line on this, and I fantastic Games and a once-in-a-lifetime experience welcome the line that my noble friend and his colleagues for so many people across the UK who will be have been taking. participating in many different ways in this phenomenal In the course of our previous debates—we have event. spent a while debating these issues—the question arose For many people, that will be the culmination of of what happens if people arrive at the stadium with their Olympic experience, the end of a great adventure, tickets which they cannot use. At an earlier stage, my but for an important group of people it is only the end noble friend Lord Coe said that the committee was of the beginning. Those are the people who will carry considering whether it would be possible to hand in on, assuring the legacy of the London Olympics. It tickets officially, rather as one does with Wimbledon will be no surprise to your Lordships that it is the tickets if one is leaving after a particular match, so legacy that I wish to dwell on this afternoon, and in that they could then be resold at face value. I am not particular the legacy promised to the people of east clear where we are on that; we have been left rather in London. It is a legacy of homes, jobs, aspirations and the dark. improved life chances, for all these things were embodied Our debate in Committee on the Bill was also in the promise made in Singapore in 2005, when the rather cut short on the question of protesters. Given UK bravely asserted that these Games would become the problems that we have had in Parliament Square, completely embedded in the regeneration of east London. we do not want to find a whole stack of people That incredibly bold and ambitious claim had never camping outside the stadium protesting about issues been attempted before. which may well be entirely irrelevant. Are we satisfied Seven years later, what progress has been made? No that the rules for dealing with protesters—particularly other Olympic city has ever taken on the level of the establishment of any form of permanent operation transformation that has occurred in east London. for protest during the course of the Games—are under Stratford now arguably has the best connected public control? transport in London. As the Minister mentioned, the We must certainly hope that the overall effect of the £1.5 billion investment made by Westfield is complete Games—I declare an interest as a patron of my club, and trading way beyond its wildest expectations. It is a Herne Hill Harriers—will be greatly to encourage phenomenal success. The 500-acre Olympic park has participation in sport. The Games authorities have been utterly transformed from the industrial wasteland been very good in seeking to ensure that people come that characterised that site, which I knew from way along, watch and are encouraged to take up sport in back, long before the bid. I did not even know that 647 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 648

[BARONESS FORD] created at Westfield, the vast majority have gone to there was water on that site; now there are 7.5 kilometres local people, demonstrating again, as the Minister of beautifully reclaimed waterways. The site is a beautiful mentioned, that the legacy is bearing fruit even before new park—a royal park, of course, to be named in this the Games begin. That was the first part of our job. great Jubilee year as the Queen Elizabeth Olympic It will take longer to know whether the second part park. That phenomenally well designed green space of our job—the legacy—has worked because the real and those reclaimed waterways and reinstated natural success of the Games will not be fully clear for some habitats all frame some of the best sporting venues years to come. That is because it will take some time to that the world has to offer. In due course, beginning see the investment in Stratford fully bear fruit in the this autumn, they will be surrounded by some of the wider regeneration of that part of east London. To best family housing that London has to offer. It is track progress in a methodical and highly visible way, quite a phenomenal achievement and has never been the Olympic host boroughs and the Mayor of London done before. have adopted the simple concept of convergence: the The IOC president, Jacques Rogge—not always an idea that, if the Games achieve what they set out to easy man to please, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, do, over a 20-year period all the social indicators that would testify—confirmed London’s achievement at currently lag the rest of London will improve to converge the last IOC session when he said: with the London average. Targets such as educational “London has raised the bar on how to deliver a lasting legacy. attainment, public health outcomes, employment and We can already see tangible results in the … regeneration of East income levels have been set to measure progress over London. This great historical city has created a legacy blueprint that period. Watching Stratford visibly improve, as I for future Games hosts”. have every week for four years, suggests to me that Praise indeed, and none of this has occurred by accident. things are on the march, and I have enormous faith London learnt the lessons of other host cities that left that change will happen in the way that we all hope. the thinking about legacy until after the Games. Generally, that was much too late, so in 2009 the Government An interesting point is that when London was beset and the Mayor of London set up their legacy organisation, by the appalling riots last summer, it was noticeable which I have had the most enormous privilege to chair that one of the few boroughs that experienced virtually from its inception. Our role was simply to focus on no trouble was Newham. I am sure that people in delivering on the promises made in respect of the Newham have real pride in and appreciation of the Olympic park. As the noble Lords, Lord Higgins and work and investment that has gone into the area, and I Lord Addington, have mentioned, there is a much do not believe that it was a coincidence that this wider legacy—a sporting and participation legacy—but borough, one of the poorest in London and the most our brief was the legacy from the park. ethnically diverse, did not get caught up in the madness that afflicted other parts of the capital last year. That Those promises were in two parts. First, we had to is a point worth reflecting on. deal with securing viable futures for the permanent venues designed for the Games, which is not always an In this last debate, we should pay sincere tribute, as easy task. It has been very important that these venues, others, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, have which in other countries have often had very mixed done, to the work of Sir David Higgins and his successor fortunes after the Games, were viable in a way that Dennis Hone and their teams at the ODA. The completion made them commercially successful. I do not imagine of the park ahead of time and under budget has been that the taxpayer would have appreciated having to the most incredible achievement, as others have said, subsidise these venues after the Games when so much and a great testimony to the UK construction industry. public money had been already spent on them, so All professions, especially the chartered surveyors, of securing commercially viable futures, as we have been which I am an honorary member, have played their able to do with six out of the eight venues, has been a part in making this project a world-class success. I am great success. Yet this would not be a success if, in so particularly proud that so many of my former colleagues doing, we had priced local people out of these venues. at English Partnerships formed the backbone of the Here I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady ODA team, bringing all the skills they developed over Doocey, whose committee at the London Assembly a number of years on large, complex sites across really challenged and encouraged us. It was especially England. We really understand how to do this kind of important to us to secure a pricing structure that transformation in England, and the remediation and pegged entry and participation at these venues to the regeneration of this site are now regarded as a genuinely local market. In other words, the cost of a swim in the world-class exemplar. Olympic aquatics centre is pegged at the same price as My finishing line has hoved into view a little earlier at the surrounding local authority pools, so there is no than I had expected. I had planned to step down after question that access to these venues will somehow be the Games as this phase of the legacy finishes and a for visitors or elite groups. They are absolutely affordable new phase of construction begins. The park will close for local kids and local families. for one year to allow significant construction works to The Olympic village, likewise—now completely presold, take place to remove the Olympic overlay, to build the unbelievably, in the current banking and property network of bridges, new roads and pathways in the market—will have a high proportion of affordable park, to complete the landscaping of the parkland and homes, delivering the promise made on housing in to resize the venues for legacy use. This is a sizeable 2005. Pulling off this balance has often been challenging construction project in its own right and will take a but frankly hugely important for the credibility of the year to complete before the north part of the park promise to local people. Of the 7,500 jobs already reopens exactly one year after the Games on 27 July 649 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[21 MAY 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 650

2013. The south part of the park, with the more opening speech. She absolutely set out the stall for complicated reconfiguration of the stadium and the what has been achieved, which is quite phenomenal. aquatics centre, will open quite quickly thereafter at We are all very proud of the way that this has been Easter 2014. I let the Mayor of London know last year delivered on the sporting, commercial and construction that I felt that this phase should be overseen by a new sides. They are all things in which we can take a great chairman who would be able to devote significant time deal of pride. to this still-considerable task. After the election, the I first raised the Olympic Truce in your Lordships’ mayor immediately appointed my successor, so I shall House in another “take note” debate on 14 June 2010. hand over after my board meeting tomorrow. I did so for three reasons. First, the Olympic Truce is The stadium and the broadcast centre remain to be not just part of the ancient Olympic Games; it was the finalised. As the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, hinted, it entire point of the ancient Olympic Games. They were was always intended that the stadium would be the not about sporting competition and they certainly new home of UK athletics, the new Crystal Palace. Its were not about legacy or commercial activity. They future has been cemented by the UK winning the right were about putting a brake on the constant fighting in to host the 2017 world athletics championships. That the Peloponnese. That was the purpose of the Games. is a phenomenal legacy from a sporting point of view. It was expressed through the Olympic Truce, which at My desire from the start was always to see whether that point was a sacred truce. I want to make sure that there were compatible uses, which the noble Lord, we remember what the Games were about and what Lord Higgins, hinted at, that could sit alongside athletics their inspiration was. to bring life and revenue to the stadium all year round. Secondly, the Olympic Truce today is not just some In the past week, that commercial process has been general “motherhood and apple pie”notion that surrounds extended by some eight weeks, but it will come to a the Games. It is something more than that. It is a close in a couple of months and I look forward to resolution of the United Nations General Assembly. It welcoming its very successful outcome. is a resolution that is proposed by the Government It has been a pleasure and a privilege to be a part of who host the Games. Therefore, as this was the first this great project and to be part of assuring the legacy resolution that the coalition Government presented to and of delivering one of the most ambitious promises the United Nations General Assembly, it should be that any Government and city have ever made. I have taken seriously. In ancient times the truce was sacred; had the pleasure of working with an outstanding team in modern times it has become rather symbolic. This is of people at the Olympic Park Legacy Company and a great opportunity for us to remember what it is of working with two amazing Ministers: Hugh Robertson, about. the Olympics Minister, and, of course, the incomparable Thirdly and finally, particularly since the torch has force of nature that is the right honourable Tessa now arrived in the UK, I take slight issue with our Jowell, who everyone on all sides of the House understands having broken the tradition of allowing it to be carried has done more than anyone in government over 10 years through different countries on an international relay to ensure that these Games are a truly outstanding for the first time. The torch heralds the Olympic Truce. success. When you are heralding an international truce, it is As the Games finish, the legacy work continues helpful if you visit other countries on the way. I feel apace, and we must not forget the promises made to that it was a missed opportunity to run the torch relay the communities in east London. I know that the host up through the Balkans—which have known great boroughs will keep up that pressure, and I look forward pain and sadnesses and still have great tensions—across to watching the London Legacy Development the battlefields of the First World War and the Second Corporation get on and finish the job. World War, and the front line of the Cold War, and then bring it to London so that we can remember. I 4pm realise that these decisions were taken many years ago. None the less, I wanted to say that. Lord Bates: My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the I want to reflect a little on what has happened in the noble Baroness, Lady Ford. I pay tribute to her and all intervening two years. There has been some movement the work that she has done in making the legacy of the and I pay tribute to people for that. Just 10 days ago, London Games something of which we can all be my noble friend Lord Moynihan and I had the great proud, which will live on in the lives of the people of privilege to be in Olympia when the Olympic flame east London for generations to come. She has made an was lit. As it was lit, the president of the International amazing contribution, as have many Members of this Olympic Committee said: House, including my noble friend Lord Coe; the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, in the Paralympics; “We have come to the ancestral home of the Olympic Movement my noble friend Lord Moynihan in the British Olympic to light a flame that will soon cast its glow over the entire world … It is a beacon for the Olympic values of friendship, excellence and Association; and the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, respect. It is a symbol of fellowship and peace. In recognition of on the GLA’s Olympic committee. As well as showcasing those values, the United Nations has unanimously approved a all that is good about Britain, it also showcases all that resolution calling on nations to build a peaceful and better world is good about this House, which we ought to find through sport and the Olympic ideal”. encouraging. That is what the president of the IOC set out as the Before I encourage my noble friend and the purpose of this flame and these Games. I fully understand Government to go, in the sporting tradition, further, the reasons why those decisions had to be taken after faster and higher on the Olympic Truce, I place my the disruption of the torch relay for the Beijing Games. remarks firmly in the context of my noble friend’s However, I do not think that sporting prowess is 651 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 652

[LORD BATES] That was what my noble friend the Prime Minister was demonstrated by anything other than courage. Someone saying when he said that this represented a “historic setting out to disrupt the proceedings should not opportunity”. cause us to drop the relay—it should cause us to There are still two months to go before the Olympic reaffirm its purposes. Games actually start. Where do we stand now? Well, This campaign on the Olympic Truce took a little we perhaps stand a little bit too much on the words, while to get going. However, I was delighted when my which have been excellent and encouraging and are right honourable friend the Prime Minister said: coming in every day, with various statements of how “We wish to make the most of that historic opportunity, we much the resolution is welcome and how much people are considering other international initiatives to promote the believe in the Olympic Truce and the Olympic ideal. spirit of the truce … the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is We are just a little short on the actions. Not that there engaging with our embassies worldwide”.—[Official Report, have not been any. A cross-departmental Olympic Commons, 29/6/11; col. 953.] Truce committee is now operating, which is taking It has been truly fantastic to see that going into advice from our excellent NGOs working in conflict operation. areas around the world to see what can be done. There The Foreign and Commonwealth Office and embassies is even an Olympic Truce officer in the Foreign and around the world have embraced the ideal of the Commonwealth Office—and, as the Foreign Secretary Olympic Truce for London 2012 in a way which is said, have you any idea how difficult it is to get quite inspirational and absolutely consistent with its additional headcount into the Foreign Office for an values. That is due to the leadership of the Minister, initiative? That is something else to be welcomed. Henry Bellingham, who has responsibility for the matter. About 32 countries have registered particular schemes We hear a lot about the Minister for the Olympics. The relating to the Olympic Truce, from Sudan to Sarajevo, Olympic Truce is an important element of this role Costa Rica and the Philippines. However, there is still and Henry Bellingham has done an outstanding job of much more that can be done to build on this extraordinary promoting it. and unique historic opportunity and international consensus. If we achieve this and for the first time in The UK mission to the United Nations also managed the modern era the Olympic Truce is taken seriously, to pull off one of the all-time records in international that will be a legacy to hand on to Rio. We can say, relations. Not only did it promote the Olympic Truce “Listen, you go further, faster and higher in implementing resolution, it also managed to get all 193 member the ancient ideal that is the entire purpose of the states of the United Nations to sign up to it before Games”. presenting it on 17 October 2011. The UK mission even went one better and got everyone to cosponsor it, which was a phenomenal achievement. In terms of 4.11 pm international relations and the Olympics, it is at least Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the noble Lord, on a par with some of the other wonderful things that Lord Bates, brings a unique contribution to this debate we have seen about legacy, construction and sport. in relation to the Olympic truce. Most of us just have We need to hear more about the Olympic Truce, the expectation that all member countries of the United because it has been achieved in such a fantastic way. Nations will actually participate in the Olympic Games. Resolution A/66/L.3 represents a mandate and an We are all too aware that in the past politics has international consensus. Its long preamble runs on for intruded in a particularly dramatic way upon certain three pages. Bless the Foreign Office for ensuring that Games. But we seem to be past that problem with every line is there and every interest is represented. regard to these Games. That is why I congratulated the Essentially, however, the preamble comes down to two Minister on the bullish way in which she introduced a things. First, it urges the member states which have report on progress regarding the Games. signed up to the truce to observe it individually and Something has been missing among the general collectively for the period of the 30th Olympic and congratulations on how much has been achieved so 14th Paralympic Games. Secondly, it calls on the far. I hope that this House reflects the optimism that member states that signed up to it to use sport as a we will do exceptionally well in the London Games. tool to promote peace, dialogue and reconciliation in There is no doubt that greater efforts have been made areas of conflict during and beyond the Olympic for the preparation of our athletes—I have no doubt Games. that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, is going to make Those statements are unambiguous. No one can a contribution on this later, but I am first in the say, “We didn’t know what we were signing up to. We batting order on this occasion—and we look forward don’t know whether we can implement it”. They have to a performance that will cheer the hearts of all of us signed up to it. What is more, Her Majesty’s Government who follow British sport and from time to time have to have proposed it to the United Nations General Assembly. sustain disappointment. We have great expectations That places on us a particular responsibility to ensure with regard to these Games. that it is implemented. Not surprisingly, after the news I had the great privilege of introducing the legislation that it had been fully supported by all 193 member in this House on the Olympic Games, and answered states, my noble friend Lord Coe, who was presenting innumerable questions on the progress of the preparation the truce resolution on behalf of Her Majesty’s for them. There is one question on which I have been Government, said: challenged. I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord James “It has never been more important to support this General of Blackheath, is in his place, because he asked me Assembly resolution by actions, not just through words”. about opportunities for religious worship during the 653 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[21 MAY 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 654

Games. He is uncertain about the answer I gave, which consistent, of course, with the need to sustain our was one of great reassurance that provision will be security arrangements while ensuring that people and made for multi-faith observance during the Games. young children do not have too pernicious an experience We should recognise how much in certain cultures this when entering the country. is of the greatest importance; after all, we all remember Finally, there has been significant investment in the 1924 Olympic Games when Liddell was not prepared transport in recent years, which is paying off magnificently to run on a Sunday.That dimension of those participating well in certain areas. The fact that the Javelin train will in the Games deserves proper recognition. I hope that hurtle at high speed from St Pancras to Stratford is an the Minister will give a reassurance that we have indication of that. However, something about transport fulfilled the expectations of the International Olympic worries me: does it put the customer first? Can anyone Committee with regards to this provision. explain why families travelling with young children on I congratulate my noble friend Lady Ford on the the Jubilee Line, who take between 30 and 35 minutes work that she has done. We look forward to some to arrive at Stratford, will find that that station, in outstandingly dramatic weeks in the Olympic Games. common with nearly all our major termini in London However, all along—this was true when the bid was and across the country, no longer provides public first presented—we have all recognised that the Olympic lavatories? The last one at Stratford was closed only a Games, and the vast resources committed to them, matter of months ago. What on earth is going on as must have a lasting legacy. My noble friend Lady Ford regards such a basic requirement for people who are chaired the committee that fulfilled the expectation of travelling particularly on the Tube, which by definition that legacy. These are not marginal issues: big forces can have no facilities? The terminus has no facilities at come into play when international, or even national, all. That seems to represent a lack of basic concern for sport is at stake. The commitment that the Olympic the traveller, and I hope that that attitude does not stadium should remain a stadium for our future athletics permeate our transport system during the period of competitions was threatened by the mighty forces of the Games, when it must serve the people to the best of Premier League clubs, which were eager only to deploy its ability. their staggering resources to transform the stadium into one used for football alone. I am delighted that 4.21 pm my noble friend and her committee withstood those pressures and safeguarded the interests of athletics. Baroness Doocey: My Lords, I have been involved in scrutinising the delivery of the Games and their However, I have one or two anxieties, which I bring legacy since London won the bid. I have also been the to the Minister’s attention simply because they are felt mayor’s representative on the Olympic Security Board, by the whole country, but particularly by Londoners. I which scrutinises the security of the Games. hope that she will give reassurance on these matters. The anxieties revolve predominantly round transport. There is no question that there is much to celebrate— Central London will have a vast influx of people the fact that venues have been delivered on time and making demands on our transport system. We should under budget; the fact that the new sporting facilities remember that the Olympic Park is only a few short are a triumph of British design and engineering; and miles from the centre of London. What is more, as far the fact that a large number of British companies have as possible all the other centres are concentrated in the benefited from the £6 billion-worth of contracts. The immediate environs of London. That is very much to creation of the Olympic Park, together with the transport the credit of all those who have organised the Olympic upgrades, has given the area all the ingredients to Games but puts the most enormous pressure on our attract visitors, tourists and new businesses for many transport system, which at times creaks under present years to come. usage. I draw to the Minister’s attention the obvious I entirely agree with the comments of my noble anxiety that all our Tube lines, with the exception of friend Lord Addington about the Paralympics, and the Jubilee Line, have shown improved performances great credit must go to LOCOG, which was determined this year compared with last. However, the Jubilee that this time the Paralympics would not be the poor Line has a greater number of stoppages and delays relation to the Olympics. LOCOG has done some than it did last year, and it is one of the crucial lines excellent work to take the needs of disabled people on going through the centre of London straight to the board, and schemes such as Ticketcare, where disabled terminus at Stratford. It is important that we are given people who are unable to attend the Games without a reassurance on that front. carer can now bring a companion, free of charge, will Secondly, there is anxiety about Heathrow. Any of make a very great difference to the needs of large us who have travelled to other countries where delays numbers of disabled people. occur at airports know that that colours one’s perspective Another achievement is the planning for Olympic on the experience that one enjoys when visiting the security. I have been extremely impressed by the calibre country concerned. We all know that if you enter as an of the people from all government departments, the alien at certain airports in the United States you can police and the military who serve on the Olympic be subject to the most inordinate delays. During the Security Board. We can never be complacent about Games, we cannot afford to face the level of delays security, but I have absolutely no doubt that the safety that we have had at Heathrow in recent months. This of London is in the best possible hands. would cast a shadow over our visitors that would There remain, however, some areas of concern. The detract severely from their experience of the Games. sporting legacy is a mixture of success and failure. The Therefore, I hope that the Minister will clearly identify good news is that Kate Hoey, as the mayor’s Commissioner how we intend to solve those issues at Heathrow for Sport, has raised £40 million to provide training 655 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 656

[BARONESS DOOCEY] to stand up to the IOC and say, “Enough is enough. for coaches and investment in sporting facilities. Some We will happily treat you like honoured guests but we exceptionally good work is being done on the ground are not prepared to treat you like gods”. by organisations such as the London Youth Games, The fact that the management of the Games has which has helped 2,000 disabled young people get into gone so well is due in no small measure to the exceptionally sport and enabled other young people to qualify as talented team of people who have been in charge right sports officials. On the other hand, the Government from the beginning. I have sometimes vehemently have been forced to abandon their target of using the disagreed with some of their policies, but I have absolutely Games to inspire 1 million people to play more sport—a no doubt that they will produce the greatest Olympic target that was never realistic. and Paralympic Games ever staged. The promised legacy of jobs and training opportunities So let us celebrate the extraordinary achievements for local unemployed people is also questionable. Although of the past seven years. Let us rejoice that Britain has the targets have been met, they were set far too low to demonstrated to the world that it can deliver major be meaningful. Likewise, while many of the Olympic construction projects successfully, on time and within buildings have their long-term future use assured—I budget—a powerful message at any time but especially pay great tribute to the inspirational leadership and in the current economic climate—but let us never vision of the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, in all that she forget the promised long-term legacy and let us do has done in this regard—the future of the main Olympic everything in our power to ensure that the legacy is stadium and media centre nevertheless remains undecided. honoured. They must not be allowed to be a drain on taxpayers for many years to come. 4.28 pm There are also concerns about the long-term use of the Olympic park. After the Games, it will become a Lord Moynihan: My Lords, I start where my noble highly desirable place to live, and thousands of new friend Lady Doocey finished by recognising London homes and communities will be built. However, my 2012 as a story of great achievement, great British concern is that no public money is allocated to fund creativity and great British involvement. The fact that this transformation Without this investment, private the Olympic park was completed on time and on developers will be free to determine the fate of a site, budget is to a great extent thanks to the skill and and I believe that it runs the risk of becoming another professionalism of more than 1,000 British businesses. Canary Wharf—a brilliant success commercially that The Olympic Delivery Authority’s contract for the benefits only wealthy newcomers and foreign investors construction of the Olympic stadium resulted in work at the expense of long-standing residents and local for 240 UK companies, with many more subcontractors. communities. This outcome would completely negate This included the supply of steel from Bolton, turf the original concept and vision, which was to provide grown in Scunthorpe and seats from Luton. More mixed communities and facilities, with a substantial than 40 UK companies won contracts to work on the proportion of the homes and jobs going to local velodrome, including supplying the timber for the people. cycling track from Sheffield and seating structures from Barnsley. There are also some lessons that we must learn for the future. The first concerns the allocation of tickets The Olympic and Paralympic Games have been a to the public. A ballot was undoubtedly the fairest catalyst for delivering this urban regeneration of the way to sell them but, given that demand was bound to East End in six years rather than 26. My noble friend outstrip supply, there should have been a ceiling on the in sport, the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, has been the number of tickets each person was allowed to purchase. torch bearer in the project to steer that area of London into a vibrant urban legacy for future generations—I It is also unjustifiable for 14,000 tickets to have emphasise that to my noble friend Lady Doocey—of been set aside for central and local government officials, the local communities. That has been at the heart of while huge numbers of the public failed to get any everything she has done, for which she deserves the tickets at all for the Games. If a ballot was the fairest congratulations and support of us all. way of selling tickets to the public, the same system should have been used for government officials. We are now ready for 15,000 athletes from more than 200 countries to come to both the Olympic and LOCOG promised that a significant number of Paralympic Games. They will be competing for tickets would be affordable but has so far refused to 4,400 medals. More than 3,000 officials will preside publish details of the number of tickets sold at each over the world’s fiercest competition and—would you price point for each event. This has resulted in widespread believe it?—20,000 accredited media will carry the suspicion that too many tickets for key events have action to billions of people around the world. We are been allocated to VIPs at the expense of the public. holding the equivalent of 26 world championships at The final lesson we must learn concerns the behaviour the same time over 19 days, transitioning the city and of the International Olympic Committee. The IOC’s then holding another 20 world championships for the demands increase with each successive Games, yet, Paralympic Games over 12 days. More than £700-million given the keen competition to host the Games, no one worth of goods will be procured for the Games, including dares to challenge it. But how can “Zil lanes” for 900,000 pieces of sports equipment—every one to chauffeur-driven limousines, and traffic lights that perfection. For example, there are 8,400 badminton automatically turn green as they approach, be justified shuttlecocks, 6,000 paper archery target faces and when they result in gridlock for the rest of London? 510 hurdles for the athletes. We expect around 8 million Sooner or later, some host city must have the courage spectators, with 800,000 people expected to use public 657 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[21 MAY 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 658 transport to travel to the Games on the busiest day. I the legal department and, as I say, I am not here to say to my noble friend Lord Davies that, of course, defend a legal department that is looking in detail at transport is a concern and security has also been the definition of a breakfast menu. However, I am expressed as a concern. However, to have an investment very concerned as chairman of the British Olympic because of the Games of some £6.5 billion, not least Association that companies that have done a huge in upgrading and extending transport links to get amount of work for these Games should be able to people to and from the Games, to ensure that London showcase in the future and win further contracts in the keeps moving, is surely beneficial both for the Games future. Sports facilities around the world are a and as a legacy project. multimillion-pound business, and it does not end with I shall refer to the comments made by the noble the Games in London. For them, it is the beginning of Lord, Lord Haskel; I was going to say my noble a long road, and we should be there to support them friend, as he frequently is on the subject of sport. He on that road. We need to get the balance right between raised an important issue. I am not here to defend the ensuring their recognition—which is important to their definition of a breakfast menu; nor, I am sure he business—on the one hand, and on the other the would accept, am I here to argue over the margins of return of the rights of the British Olympic Association, the legal definition of ambush marketing. I hope that I which for over one hundred years had to rely purely on can give him some comfort by saying this from the private sector funding; there was not a pound from London organising committee perspective. It raised government in those hundred years. The only way to some £2 billion from the private sector to put into the do this is through the sale of the rights through Games. That has come not least from TV rights and, sponsorship. I believe that we can achieve that balance. of course, ticket sales. Above all, it has come from I will move on to the work of the Government. The sponsorship rights. Protecting those sponsorship rights House should have nothing but praise for the Minister is inherently important in retaining the value of that for Sport and the Olympics, Hugh Robertson. He essential contribution to a £2 billion package which fought for our athletes in maintaining funding for our has not resorted to government funding. Olympic and Paralympic teams after London 2012, I think that the noble Lord was focusing more on going into the Rio cycle. He has boosted the credentials the future. In that context maybe I can give him some of this country to make sure that we have a decade of comfort as I have a good degree of sympathy with his sport, by supporting our successful bids—and I emphasise point. At the end of this year, the rights will return that all these have been successful—to host the Rugby from the London organising committee to the British League World Cup in 2013; the Commonwealth Games, Olympic Association. We are in discussion at this of course, in 2014; the Rugby Union World Cup in time—well in advance of the end of the year—to see 2015; the World Athletics Championships in the Olympic how we can showcase British expertise among the stadium in 2017, and what a magnificent achievement contractors and subcontractors who have been involved it was to win that bid; and, not least after our great with the project, to ensure that they get some recognition victory today, the Cricket World Cup in 2019. This moving forward, without losing the right of those will be a decade of sport for the United Kingdom. commercial advantages that the British Olympic However, Hugh Robertson will not be short of Association will have to support the young athletes of future challenges when the curtain falls on the Olympic the future once the Games have moved on from London and Paralympic Games. There is a need to restructure 2012. The noble Lord makes a very important point British sport. It is still a myriad of too many quangos but I give him the assurance that we are already in and of public sector-driven and overlapping bureaucracy. discussion with those contractors, such as Sir John I have always believed that the role of government in Armitt—he has been critical in this, as the noble Lord sport is to empower, not to micromanage. Where sport knows—and with the Government to see whether we is at its best, it is driven from the athletes up, with the can find a solution to recognise and showcase the support and enthusiasm of their parents, families, outstanding work that has been done for these Games, friends, clubs and schools. It provides the ideal opportunity and to work with those companies to make sure that to implement the Prime Minister’s earlier objective of not only they succeed but that young athletes in the “big society, not big government”. The months after future are given the support they so richly deserve the Games will provide the best chance in a generation when it comes to moving on to future Olympic and for fundamental reform. A leader like Hugh Robertson, Paralympic Games. who has won respect across the sporting world, has the ability to take on the forces of the past and deliver Lord Haskel: I thank the noble Lord for that a true sporting legacy for the future. However, delivery reassurance, but the point that is being continuously of that sporting legacy will be our biggest challenge. made to me is that the Olympic city itself is a wonderful Against this background, the British Olympic shop window and it is not allowed to use the Olympics Association will continue to perform its role as an as such. independent voice for sport. When the Government, the mayor’s office’s attention and the Olympic movement Lord Moynihan: I have made a distinction, I hope, move on and LOCOG is disbanded, we will still be in trying to assist the noble Lord about what happens there for the athletes. It is my view that sport holds a when those rights return to the British Olympic mirror to society. The values of sport reflect the values Association. He made a very important point about of society. Many of the principles and ideals inherent the future benefit to those companies being showcased in sport have a broader application to our lives as a for the work that they have done and what is happening whole. The standards of probity and integrity in sport today. What is happening today is clearly a matter for should mirror the highest standards of behaviour in 659 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 660

[LORD MOYNIHAN] Nick Ridley. He was not the greatest fan of sport. I society. The corresponding forms of sanction and recall a packed House of Commons for the Second discipline should apply if that behaviour is flouted. Reading of the Football Spectators Bill. I was a nervous Keenly contested though it is, winning at any cost is Minister for Sport and he, kindly as ever, offered to do inimical to the very essence of sport and to its philosophy the most difficult task, which was to take on the of team spirit, honesty and loyalty. Second Reading speech in a packed House. The former The concept of fair play is one of sport’s most Minister for Sport, Denis Howell, leant across the cherished tenets. Cheating, by whatever means, from Dispatch Box. I had been going to football matches overt fouling to match fixing to doping, is not fair play regularly for the previous couple of years in order to and has no place in sport. On 7 November last year, be able to answer questions. Denis Howell asked: “So, the greatest living Olympian, Sir Steve Redgrave, stated, Secretary of State, when was the last time you were at with reference to the World Anti-Doping Agency: a football match?”—to which Nick Ridley replied, “At “A two-year ban for doping is almost saying that it’s acceptable”. Eton, under duress”. It was a classic example that He was speaking for clean athletes across the globe. contrasted with how many days I had spent at Yet last month was marked by a deeply disappointing football matches, watching 18 First Division games development. The Court of Arbitration of Sport formally and 14 from the rest of the divisions. He was a great declared the British Olympic Association’s lifetime Secretary of State. ban for serious drugs cheats unenforceable. That effectively I went to see him that Wednesday morning. My denied the British Olympic Association the autonomy headline requests were that we should have £1 million to select Team GB athletes. We held a special meeting to set up the British Paralympic Association; that we of all the governing bodies of sport to consider the should establish a ministerial review of disabled sport; effect of the ruling. There was a universal condemnation and that we should request support from government of the World Anti-Doping Agency’s decision to reduce to encourage the IOC to make it a requirement that to two years the bans for first-time offences. Let us any city bidding to host the Olympic Games also hope that it is not tantamount—as postulated by my hosted the Paralympic Games thereafter. Nick looked noble friend Lord Higgins—to giving a green light to at me and simply said, “Fine”. I did not stay for the use of drugs in sport. If this proves to be the case, further discussion, but said thank you and exited to a and nothing is done to stem the tide, we will drift broad smile from his private office. inexorably towards a sporting world in which competition True early heroes of the Paralympic association between athletes is equally competition between chemists’ such as Bernard Atha and Dr Adrian Whiteson in laboratories. At the British Olympic Association and particular—the latter has gone on to mastermind the in the corridors of the IOC, national Olympic committees Teenage Cancer Trust—should be celebrated this summer. and international federations, we may have lost the Since that time, many Paralympians have inspired us, battle. However, on behalf of the athletes whose interests showing a generation that it is the ability of athletes we represent, we must win the war. that we should focus on rather than their disabilities. My noble friend Lord Higgins suggested that the The seeds of this transformation in society were to be benefits of performance-enhancing drugs may pass found in Headley Court, Stoke Mandeville and the and go away during a period of two years. That may work of Jack Ashley and the others in Parliament who be a seriously wrong observation. If I had taken steered through much-needed legislation on behalf of growth hormones throughout my teens and had ended the disabled. This year’s Paralympic Games will be the up six feet tall like my noble friend Lord Bates, I culmination of all their work. guarantee that I would not have shrunk back to my The British Olympic Association has been transformed present height in my 20s. That was a light-hearted way over the past four or five years. It has listened to the of making a serious point. If one takes a cocktail of voice of athletes as never before. The voice of athletes drugs to enhance one’s performance in training and has been heard in the meetings of the advisory board, can do eight, nine or 10 times more circuit training in on which my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft and the the winter than one would otherwise have done without noble Lord, Lord Paul, continue to sit and give their those drugs, even when one comes off the drugs one guidance and wise advice. When I walk in to meetings can attain high performance levels with the muscular of the National Olympic Committee, I am proud to structure one has now acquired illegally by taking the see in front of me one of the most expert boards in performance-enhancing drugs, sometimes for a very British sport, which is why the BOA will continue to long time. The case of growth hormones is extremely play a central role in the centre of sports policy. important, especially for people in their teens. However, what we will focus on now, above all, is giving maximum performance support to our athletes, Lord Higgins: I entirely agree with what my noble all 550 of them who will be selected for Team GB this friend said; perhaps he misheard me. summer. One hundred and one have already been selected. Why should we give them that support? One Lord Moynihan: I am delighted that I did mishear—and example gives the answer. If you were fortunate enough if I did, I may have done so slightly mischievously in to watch the Games in Athens, you would have seen order to make my point. I am more than grateful to the great gold medals that Britain won in the coxless my noble friend for raising the subject. four, Kelly Holmes’s 800 and 1,500 metres, the men’s I turn briefly to the Paralympic movement. There is 4 x 100 and Chris Hoy’s first gold medal in the 1 no doubt that the Paralympic Games this summer will kilometre time trial. The final times of those five gold be one of the highlights of 2012. When I was Minister medals added together were 12 minutes and six seconds, for Sport, I went to see my then Secretary of State, but the difference between all five being gold and all 661 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[21 MAY 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 662 five being silver was 0.545 of one second. That is why I have been staggered at the extent to which all the it is so tough to win gold medals at the Olympic mistakes that have been made in other parts of the world Games, and that is why the work of the British Olympic seem to have been taken into account by the various Association should be devoted—every minute, every bodies responsible for getting us this far. When I went hour, every day—to supporting every one of our athletes to the Library and asked for something on the Olympic on Team GB to deliver their best performance on the Games they give me a compendium. It is here next to day. If we do that, we have the talent to match the me. The scope and complexity of the matters and the success that we had in Beijing. manner in which they have had to be dealt with is Our aspirational target remains fourth place in the fantastic. I have enjoyed listening to debates in this medal table. It will be tough, incredibly tough. We will place and on the radio and elsewhere. The noble not beat the Chinese, Russians or the Americans, and Baroness, Lady Ford, has had a major part to play in the Germans and the Australians will be very much on managing the event. I congratulate her and her committee. our heels, but if we can continue to support our It seems to me that all of the lessons that could be athletes, along with their families, their coaches and learnt from the past have been learnt. We will wait their governing bodies, we will see remarkable feats of and see. sporting success this summer. I have every confidence that our Olympic and Paralympic teams will deliver, Some of my friends have asked me what I am going and I wish them well. to do during the Olympics. I said that I am going to sit at home and enjoy it. When I asked them what they were doing they said they were going on holiday 4.47 pm because they did not want to be here. I am amazed. Lord Graham of Edmonton: My Lords, it is a joy This is a once-in-a-lifetime event. The sight of the and a pleasure for me to follow the noble Lord, as I supporters of Chelsea and Manchester City going have done more than once during these debates. It is daft in front of their neighbours and friends was great that we have this opportunity so near the event hilarious. As someone who takes an interest in sport I to remind ourselves, and those who care to listen, what can appreciate it. We want to see the same reaction it is all about. from the people of this country when a British Olympian What it is all about came to me this morning when I takes part. Even if they do not win, if they do well or went to see my doctor. I spoke to the nurse and said, do not disgrace themselves, we should be proud of the “Was it not great this weekend?”. She said, “What do fact that they are there. you mean this weekend?”. I said, “Chelsea winning the cup”. She said, “Oh!”. I said, “You have got two I am a prominent member of London Councils, daughters; surely they are interested”. She said, “Oh, together with the noble Lords, Lord Jenkin and Lord they are mildly interested but they are waiting for the Tope, and others. It has done a fantastic job in Olympics. They are in their teens and they are keen co-ordinating the activity of councils. I was the leader and excited”. of a London borough council, more than 50 years ago now. I know the pressures that are on my colleagues This reminded me about the theme which ought to on the council now. Despite that, London Councils be running through this debate. What we are about to has a magnificent record of responding to what is enjoy and participate in is a chance in a lifetime; it is going to happen. something that many of us have thought about and wanted to take part in. One of the joys of being in this I wish the event well. I can remember the excitement House is recognising the quality of people from different of 1948. My wife Margaret and I would go to spheres of activity. One knows the various people I am dinner parties and inevitably people would say how talking about. When the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, marvellous the Olympic Games had been and entertained us with his wisdom, I remembered him mention all the names, and my wife would sit there when he ran for England or Britain and I was behind and smile. They would finally say, “Come on, Margaret, him. I was the shadow; I was behind him all the way. you remember it”, and she would say, “I was there”, I have jotted down some names—the noble Baroness, and she was able to tell them what she had seen and Lady Grey-Thompson, the noble Lord, Lord Coe and heard: Fanny Blankers-Koen and people like that. My the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and in the other wife played netball for Essex and enjoyed it. My claim place Kate Hoey and Tessa Jowell, have been towers of to fame is that I once had a trial for Newcastle strength in getting us to where we are. I can remember Boys—that is as far as I can go. We lost 5-0, and the the excitement when Tony Blair was able to put to the fact that I happened to be in goal had nothing to do top of his list of achievements getting and persuading with it. the world that Britain was ready and ripe for what is going to happen in the next three months. You are either with the Olympics or you are not; I recall the manner in which people can have their you are either excited or you are not. The media have enthusiasm bought. I remember the 1948 Games, when done a great job, especially through television, of I was working for the Newcastle Co-op. We had a introducing me to sports that I had heard of but had sports field and after the Games the runners McDonald not seen. Everyone who participates on our behalf Bailey and Arthur Wint came to us and performed; should have the feeling that the country is behind before that I saw Sidney Woodison there. I saw all of them. Never mind politics, never mind north or south, them and remember the names and the people but not never mind the problems—we are all behind them in the events themselves; I was proud to have seen them this great adventure. I congratulate those who are perform. They left a deep impression of their capability. going to represent us and I wish them well. 663 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 664

4.57 pm All appeared positive, with new sporting opportunities and help for schools to provide them. That is why I say Baroness Billingham: My Lords, today’s debate has today that the greatest threat to the hoped-for sporting been truly outstanding, with so many experts sharing legacy has come from Michael Gove’s disastrous plan their expertise with us. It has been a privilege to be in to demolish the school sport programme in his the Chamber today. reorganisation of curricula in state schools. Those We are on our way. The torch bearers carrying the schools may become sport-free areas. Heads who are Olympic flame are the Pied Pipers who will ignite the driven by school league tables may decide to transfer enthusiasm for everyone around them. Travelling 8,000 funds from sport to their academic programme. It is miles to more than 1,000 communities, the torch relay sporting vandalism. Yet the 7% of students attending will link up the whole nation in preparation for the fee-paying schools still enjoy two afternoons a week of Olympic Games, the greatest show on earth. sport and still achieve good academic results, all within the same school week and with extracurricular activities The Games will be a showcase for Britain, a chance thrown in for good measure. to shine in a gloomy world, proving to the world that we can plan and produce the Games and ensure that Many weasel words have been uttered to justify the they will be exciting, successful and, above all, peaceful. scrapping of the school sport programme. “It did not The mantra that the Games are on time and on budget always work” is just one feeble excuse. The reality is is in itself cause for celebration. It is a huge achievement that it was a stunning success. Michael Gove has dealt and those involved with the outcome are to be warmly a devastating blow to the fundamental way in the applauded. It is a model for teamwork and dedication. majority of young people get started in sport. Of course, parents, clubs and national governing bodies There are many reasons to welcome the successful can and do play an important part, but for the vast bid for the Games, not least the magnificent injection majority of young people it is the physical education today of additional funds from the legacy budget and programme in schools which gives them their first Sport England into disabled sport. The Paralympics taste and love of sport in many guises. have achieved unparalleled enthusiasm with our Games; ticket sales, media coverage and sport in the community Everyone who signed up to the sporting legacy all reflect that. The Paralympics go from strength to notion has a duty to return to the Gove decision. It strength and make sport for all the reality that it ought must be reversed, or all our aspirations as to a sporting to be. legacy for all will come to nothing. Will the Minister undertake today to deliver this message to the Secretary Regeneration of one of the poorest boroughs in the of State for Education and to the Minister for Sport? UK comes high on the list of successes: 75% of every They bear full responsibility for the future. £1 spent on the park has gone into the regeneration project. Without the Games, none of that would have Already, Sport England’s Active People survey is happened. It is a huge boost for the area and will producing disappointing results, showing that, of the benefit people for generations to come. After the Games, 30 sports measured, only four have seen an increase there will be five world-class sporting venues, which and 19 have shown a decrease. The implication that are much welcomed and indeed needed. Up to 8,000 the destruction of sport in state schools will have no new homes will be built and the accommodation of impact on the Olympic legacy aspiration seems the Olympic village will become part of the housing extraordinary to me and others. Does the right hand legacy. Again, none of this would have happened or of the Government have no idea what the left hand is been possible without the Games. doing? It will undoubtedly negate all the good work that has been done. At the very heart of the Olympic project has been the emphasis, highlighted during the successful bid, on As the Games move nearer, practical problems the creation of a genuine sporting legacy. A cornerstone emerge. People see that they may be affected personally, of the bid was to inspire a generation of young people sometimes negatively. Every day, we see new issues through sport. During the latter years of the Labour highlighted in the media, creating questions and some Government, investment in school and community unease which have to have to be addressed. In this, I sport, which laid the foundation for the sporting legacy, echo some of the points made earlier by my noble was remarkable. The commitment to make available at friend Lord Davies. least five hours of sport for almost every child was a I put to the Minister a series of those issues in the huge breakthrough. Those of us involved in sport, hope that, in her usual highly competent way, she can whether in schools or the community, knew that this give us reassurances to allay those fears. Security has was the key to a fitter, happier sporting nation. There become even more high profile; the years between the appeared to be a political consensus; indeed, we had bid and today make it even more so. Against the as tremendous role models political leaders who not background of deep cuts to police funding, can she only paid lip service to the place of sport in their lives reassure us that there will be no relaxation of security, but realised that others could benefit. I know to my to ensure the safety of everyone attending the Games? personal advantage the enthusiasm with which our Allied to that, with the potentially damaging cuts, can Prime Minister plays tennis. We have an excellent she reassure us that access to Britain via our airports record playing together for the Lords and Commons will not become a nightmare, with visitors standing in tennis club. His fiery enthusiasm and commitment are line for hours on end? The world will be watching and a joy to behold. Both being left-handers, we argued making judgments. That experience could deeply damage only over who should take the left court for the return our tourism trade. Again, can the Minister reassure us of serve and, needless to say, he gave way very gracefully. that adequate measures are being taken? 665 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[21 MAY 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 666

What about ticketing, which has already been Games as we wished. I acknowledge that his story mentioned? It has been a thorny issue from the outset. about a flaming torch breakfast seems to be taking Are too many tickets being ring-fenced for sponsors these things somewhat to extremes. However, who are and dignitaries? Is the balance towards the favoured we to say what the context is and where you draw the group outweighing the competitors and the general line on these? We feel that sponsors’ rights have to be public? More transparency is needed. It appears that protected, which is of course an obligation under the large sums of money can still secure tickets on the terms of the agreement with the International Olympic internet. Is that fair? Committee, both because of that and against ambush Travel around London is a difficult issue. Those marketing. That is quite a comprehensive sector, which who have to travel to work, such as nurses, cleaners, we debated when it came through earlier in your public workers, et cetera, face chaos during the Games. Lordships’ House and when we passed the instrument Is the balance between sponsors’ limousines and ordinary to say that it should go through. people’s lives right? Not everyone can be given the My noble friend Lord Addington talked about the luxury, recently given to civil servants, of staying at protection of the Olympic brand and the real importance home. That does not work for care workers attending of learning lessons from what has gone right and what patients in a care home, does it? has not gone quite so smoothly in these Games, from Much has been made of sustainability. At the time which we will quite certainly take away a number of of the bid, it was a huge and important issue, but lessons. It is not that we are likely to host the Olympics following economic pressure, the Government have and Paralympics in the UK again for a great many taken a less green approach. Can it be right to weaken years to come, but all these lessons go back to the our commitment to sustainability, ditched by cuts in Olympic family as a whole to make sure that all expenditure? The very notion of a physical legacy—the Games learn from previous ones. stadia, the sporting facilities of all kinds—has been at One or two noble Lords mentioned the matter of the heart of the project. Bear in mind that the public tickets. There was an unprecedented demand for tickets, purse has provided about 98% of the Olympic budget, which had never happened in previous Games. The but almost all the infrastructure will fall into private systems that LOCOG set up would have coped if the hands after the Games. Is that the outcome that the interest had been as the media predicted in fairly Minister envisaged? It appears that the deal on the major cynical terms. It has obviously been a disappointment stadium has yet to be clinched. Does that fill the for those who did not get tickets, although they have Minister with as much foreboding as it does me? Has been coming back on sale. I have already heard a the process been botched? Has the eye been taken off number of stories of people who were not successful the proverbial ball? the first time around but who now have tickets. We Those are just some of the questions swirling around hope that that position continues to improve. I enjoyed today. Then there are the views being discussed in the the intervention by my noble friend Lord Grade. I Slug and Lettuce, to say nothing of the Cumberland suppose we can only be grateful that the Prime Minister tennis club. I know that the Minister will do her best of the day was convinced that the bid should go to answer those questions. She always responds so ahead. sensibly and knowledgeably, but I fear that her bat My noble friend Lord Higgins spoke of his Olympic may have been broken by her captain even before she experiences, and my goodness it seems a different day. got to the wicket. Where have we heard that before? I noticed that “Chariots of Fire” is currently on my Finally, there can be no doubt in anyone’s mind local theatre and I am about to go for a nostalgic that the outstanding contributions to today’s debate review of that. However, the Olympics of the 1940s have emphasised that we are all united in our hopes were run and competed in a very different mode from and aspirations for all the British teams’ success. We the Olympics of today. The big change from amateur will celebrate all their successes and look to them to be to professional has been one key difference. He raised the role models for the future. the matter of drugs, a matter which my noble friend Lord Moynihan also took up. We should confirm the 5.08 pm very tough line that is being taken on drugs here, because undoubtedly sports and sportspeople suffer Baroness Garden of Frognal: My Lords, I thank tremendously if drugs become permitted, whatever noble Lords very much for their contributions to this the sport. debate. One of the wonders of a debate such as this in your Lordships’ House is that many, if not all, of the My noble friend asked what happens if people questions that Members have asked seemed to have arrived with tickets that they cannot use. I do not been answered by those with far more expertise in the currently have an answer to that scenario. I know that various subjects than I have, but I will do my best to we have already discussed whether people could use pick up the questions as they came up. tickets if their names were not on them. The response The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, asked about suppliers. was that the person who bought the tickets has overall The answer from my noble friend Lord Moynihan has responsibility for them, but obviously they may be gone some way to respond to his queries, if not to used by those who do not appear on the named tickets. satisfy him. The contracts for suppliers permit specific As for protestors, everyone has the right to protest mention of their involvement with the Olympic and and nothing that is being planned for the Games will Paralympic Games in particular cases, but it is for the curtail the right to legitimate peaceful protest, but that major sponsors to have exclusivity over rights, because does not extend to disrupting the Games or their without those we would not be able to put on the preparations. We certainly do not want to undermine 667 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 668

[BARONESS GARDEN OF FROGNAL] crucial. LOCOG’s faith adviser, the Reverend Canon years of dedicated training by those competing, or Duncan Green, who was appointed by the Archbishop ruin the enjoyment of fans who have paid to see their of Canterbury, has led this work, but LOCOG has sporting heroes in action, so we expect that the response also worked closely with the Muslim Council of Britain to protests will be proportionate. and its general-secretary Dr Muhammad Bari, so I My noble friend Lord Higgins also mentioned the hope noble Lords are reassured on this issue. It has legacy of the athletics stadium. We are of course been taken extremely seriously, and I assure the noble encouraged to know that the athletics legacy will Lord, Lord Davies, and other noble Lords that certainly continue until 2017, because the stadium will considerable efforts have been made by LOCOG to be used when we host the world athletics championships ensure that the needs of faith communities have been there. addressed appropriately and respectfully. The noble Baroness, Lady Ford, spoke about the The noble Lord, Lord Davies, and the noble Baroness, legacy. I join other noble Lords in paying warm tribute Lady Billingham, mentioned Heathrow, which has to the work that she has done to ensure that the been overmuch in the news recently with its possible Olympic park is indeed a real credit to the country inability to cope. The UK Border Force, BAA, LOCOG once it has completed its sporting time during the and other partners are working very closely together Olympic and Paralympics. She mentioned the importance to ensure that visitors have a good experience at the of not pricing local people out of access or homes. My airport and a warm welcome to the UK. We recognise noble friend Lady Doocey also brought up concerns that there is some way to go in ensuring that that is the about local people being excluded from those. case for everyone who comes here. Additional resources Considerable steps are being taken to ensure that the will be deployed by the UK Border Force to reduce number of affordable homes in the Olympic park queues to a minimum. BAA is providing a temporary remains high. We hope that it will not become the terminal for the athletes’ departure, which will be one preserve of the rich, because assurances are in place of Heathrow’s busiest days, and putting improved that local people will have their say. We congratulate services in place to help Paralympic teams, which the noble Baroness on what she has done and are sure should provide a real legacy for disabled visitors afterwards. that we have not seen the last of her in connection We are conscious of the need for cross-departmental with Olympic matters, but she may act in a more conversations and discussions on this. The Home Office personal capacity in future. We welcome Daniel Moylan, is quite naturally concerned that levels of security who will be carrying the torch in the post that the should be high for the period of the Olympic and noble Baroness has vacated. Paralympic Games but is also conscious that visitors must be given a warm welcome to our country. My noble friend Lord Bates lived up to expectations by talking warmly about the Olympic Truce being the My noble friend Lady Doocey has done an enormous point of the ancient Games and the torch relay heralding amount to contribute to the Games. I think particularly the fellowship and peace of the truce. The Foreign and of the work that she has done on carers and on Commonwealth Office is leading on this and we will ensuring that people who need someone to come with certainly seek to work with parliamentarians and bodies them to the Games should be accompanied. She paid such as the Inter-Parliamentary Union, the Westminster tribute to the security staff. I agree that we are in the Foundation for Democracy, the Commonwealth and best possible hands. The people working on security others to ensure that through an active public diplomacy for us have worked enormously hard to try to ensure programme we have an opportunity to increase that all goes well. international public interest and involvement in conflict My noble friend Lady Doocey mentioned transport, prevention and peacebuilding and to raise the level of as did other noble Lords. We certainly hope that our ambition for future Olympic Truces. My noble friend lanes do not become Zil lanes. We are keeping the has done an enormous amount to put the Olympic lanes that are reserved for the Olympic family to a Truce high on the agenda of the Games. minimum, and taking every possible care so that London I compliment the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, can go about its normal business as far as possible. on all the work that he did in the previous Administration My noble friend also raised concerns about tickets to ensure the success of the Olympics and Paralympics, for officials. I was interested to hear the noble Lord, and I was pleased to see him reflecting optimism in his Lord Graham, talk about the hard work of local speech. He raised concerns about faith issues, which I councils around the Games. I am conscious that there know my noble friend Lord James shares. Four years are allocated tickets for officials. However, the Government ago, LOCOG set up a faith reference group that have kept their allocation to fewer tickets than they includes the nine faiths recognised by the IOC: Muslim, were entitled to. On affordability, 2.5 million tickets Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, Hindu, Baha’i were priced at £20 or less. There were special prices for and Zoroastrian. This group has looked at all aspects tickets for more than 220 sessions. Getting the balance of the plans, including the multifaith centres, prayer right between having the right level of hosting and spaces, food provision, uniform design, quiet areas people to support the Games and making sure that the and accommodation, not only for athletes but for the vast majority of the tickets were on sale to the general workforce, volunteers, media and spectators, where public has been striven for. By and large, LOCOG has appropriate. got the appropriate balance. I think 8.8 million tickets We are conscious that with the Games taking place were on sale. It is an enormous number. The proportion during Ramadan and on the 40th anniversary of the going to the Government and officials is relatively Munich attacks this multifaith approach has been small. 669 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[21 MAY 2012] Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 670

My noble friend Lord Moynihan talked about the I was delighted to hear the noble Baroness, Lady British businesses that would benefit from the Games. Billingham, say what a cause for celebration the Games I accept that there is a difference of opinion between were and I warmly applaud the positive aspects of her him and the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, on this. speech. She mentioned her disappointment at the change in school sports policy when the coalition Government Lord Haskel: There is absolutely no difference between came in. I can only assure her that we have been the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and me. He spoke working closely with schools to reverse the decline in about the benefit that those businesses will get in the sports participation. Under the new sports strategy, as future, when the rights return to the British Olympic I set out in my opening speech, there will be a particular committee. I was asking about allowing British companies focus on 14 to 25 year-olds. We are very aware that the to use the Olympic Games as a shop window today. It interest and participation in sport of most young is not about bread tomorrow; I was talking about people severely declines when they leave school. We bread today. are working with clubs and schools to ensure continuity when young people move from school to adulthood. A Baroness Garden of Frognal: I hear what the noble great deal of effort is going on to talk to all parties to Lord says. It is important to the International Olympic ensure that we have sport in all schools and not, as she Committee and the Olympic family that they should said, just in independent schools, which would be of be very protective of the branding of Olympic and grave concern to us. Paralympic goods and services. Part of the contract that businesses signed set out in some detail where The noble Baroness, Lady Billingham, also mentioned they could refer to their involvement in the Olympics. sustainability.We are committed to setting new standards However, one of the other aspects is that officials in for sustainability in terms of the building and the BIS and businesspeople throughout the country will staging of these events. The London Games are going use the Olympics as a showcase for British business. further than most major events have ever gone in the Therefore, even if they cannot stick an Olympic brand commitment to reducing carbon emissions. We are on their goods, there will be plenty of opportunities confident that we will be able to deliver on an ambition for them to meet the international community and of sustainability for these Games in modern times. build their businesses. We will certainly look for results There are fewer than 70 days until the opening from that. ceremony of the Olympic Games. London is on track My noble friend Lord Moynihan referred to doping, for a great Games. The project is on time and on which I have already mentioned. We all agree with him budget. Test events and readiness exercises are taking about how tough it is to compete. The figures that he place. Our wonderful world-ranking athletes are in gave about the microscopic differences between those training and I think that we would all wish to pay who won gold and silver medals just shows us all how tribute to the hours of dedication to their sport which intense the competition is for the athletes. they demonstrate. We may see just the final moments When the noble Lord, Lord Graham, spoke, I but behind that their effort is truly inspirational. Like could not help thinking that if the trial for Newcastle my noble friend Lord Addington, the other day I was boys had only gone differently, we might not have had at a Sainsbury’s reception and I have been at other the benefit of his wisdom in this House over the years. receptions meeting Paralympic athletes. If we think Perhaps we should grateful for some things. that our Olympic athletes are inspirational, we have to have the same view of our Paralympic athletes. They Lord Grade of Yarmouth: The preparation has clearly are quite unbelievable in their dedication and efforts gone better than anyone could have expected, bit in to achieve world-ranking standards in their sports. the round of very well earned bouquets that have been I make no apology for repeating the remark from dished out because of what we hope will be an enormous Jacques Rogge and the IOC at their final inspection in success, there is a slight omission. Through the National March, already quoted by the noble Baroness, Lady Lottery, Camelot has contributed more than £2 billion Ford, which hailed London 2012 as “a legacy blueprint” to the Games—and I declare an interest as a former for future host cities. This is a fantastic achievement of chairman of Camelot. Even more importantly, the which we can rightly be proud. I also pay tribute to all revenue that it has created, which has sustained many those who have contributed. In your Lordships’ House, British sports men and women between the Games, we have the noble Baroness, Lady Ford, and my noble has been transformational for the medal tables since it friends Lord Coe and Lord Moynihan, who have been came on-stream. Will the Minister join me in very instrumental, and others who have had an enormous congratulating Camelot? impact on the building and delivery of the Games. We owe them all an enormous debt of gratitude. Baroness Garden of Frognal: I am most grateful to my noble friend for that jog. I have no hesitation in The official broadcasters will be the BBC for the joining him in thanking Camelot for its enormous Olympic Games and Channel 4 for the Paralympic contribution to the athletes and the Games. My noble Games. I do not doubt that those of us who cannot be friend Lady Heyhoe Flint was hoping to speak. Family there will be glued to our sets. These Games are a circumstances meant that she was unable to be here once-in-a-generation opportunity to showcase the UK for the opening speeches. Conscious of the rules and to a massive international audience. Along with Her courtesies of the House, she took her name from the Majesty’s Diamond Jubilee celebrations, this summer list. We appreciate her compliance in this matter. Her will show the world what we as a nation can do. The contributions are always most welcome and we look overriding message from what we have heard today is forward to hearing her speak on future occasions. that we can all look forward to a tremendous summer 671 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012[LORDS] Employment Law 672

[BARONESS GARDEN OF FROGNAL] paying? That is a phrase that I cannot help remembering of sport and celebration, and to a wonderful, lasting from a previous Conservative Administration. Beecroft legacy for London and the rest of the UK. We all wish himself said: our athletes every possible success. “The downside of the proposal is that some people would be dismissed simply because their employer did not like them. While Motion agreed. this is sad I believe it is a price worth paying for all the benefits that would result from the change”. Employment Law That is Mr Beecroft for you—he clearly believes that it Statement is a price worth paying. He is a major Conservative Party donor as well. 5.29 pm Why have the Government, given the situation that Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I would like to repeat we are in, not put forward proposals to introduce a the Answer given to an Urgent Question asked in British investment bank to help get finance to business, another place today. The Answer is as follows: but are prioritising making people less secure in work? “The Beecroft report was commissioned by the Why have the Government not put forward a temporary Department for Business, Innovation and Skills as national insurance contribution cut for small businesses part of both the Red Tape Challenge and the employment to take on extra workers but are prioritising making law review. Mr Beecroft was asked to give his initial people less secure in work? Why are they failing to do thoughts on areas of employment law that could be enough to accelerate infrastructure investment—which, improved or simplified to help businesses and job after all, business organisations such as the CBI have creation. The report was intended to feed into the called for, and could be threatened by Solvency II—but work that the business department is carrying out to instead are prioritising making people less secure in review employment laws to ensure they maximise flexibility work? and reflect modern workplace practices. This is important When there are 2.63 million unemployed, created both to employers and employees and is designed to by the double-dip recession made in Downing Street, strengthen our international competitiveness in difficult does the Minister feel that making it easier to fire staff economic times. It is worth noting that the UK is at will and causing even more insecurity will give hope considered to have the third most flexible labour market to people who are desperately seeking a job? Does he in the OECD, and this is an important strength. think that firing at will will boost consumer confidence Mr Beecroft was asked to take a candid look at a at a time when the economy has entered a recession wide range of issues and he submitted his report in caused by the policy of this Government? Does he October of last year. Over the last few months, Ministers agree with Dr John Philpott, the chief economic adviser have been working through Red Tape Challenge and at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, the employment law review, and I can tell the House who said: that of the 23 topics he raised we have identified “The vast weight of evidence on the effects of employment actions in 17 of them. As part of consideration of the protection legislation suggests that … less job protection … Beecroft report, it was clear that further evidence was results in increased firing during downturns. The overall effect is required, most notably on the issue of no-fault dismissal thus simply to make employment less stable over the economic for micro-businesses. This was published on 15 March, cycle, with little significant impact one way or the other on structural rates of employment or unemployment”. and I can tell the House that it will conclude on 8 June. Given that this date falls when the House is not sitting, Does the Minister agree with Beecroft that small the Government decided to bring forward publication businesses have very limited administration skills and of the report to this week, so that it could inform the very few academic qualifications? Are not those problems debate. that need to be addressed, rather than accepting the Last week, the Home Secretary announced the anecdotal evidence as a solution for creating more outcome of the Equalities Red Tape Challenge, which employment? directly impinges on employment and workplace issues. According to the OECD, the UK has the third least Our intention was therefore to publish the report in regulated labour market in the developed economies. time for this week’s business department oral That is one thing in the Statement with which I agree. parliamentary Questions. As you know, Mr Speaker, it Only in the USA and Canada is employment regulation was our intention to publish the report this week, but I less strict. As the Chartered Institute of Personnel and have noticed from the press that an earlier draft of the Development has said, some of the most severe restrictions report is now in circulation. Therefore, in the interests on the employer’s right to dismiss staff can be found in of accuracy, and so that the House has the correct countries such as the Netherlands, Norway and Austria, information in front of it, I can confirm that the which all have unemployment rates lower than the report will be published this afternoon, and copies will UK’s. Even the Secretary of State has said: be placed in the Libraries”. “We don’t want to dent job security and consumer confidence”; That concludes the Answer to today’s Urgent Question. and: 5.32 pm “Our labour market is already one of the most flexible in the Lord Young of Norwood Green: My Lords, I have world”. listened carefully to the Minister on Mr Beecroft’s Why, therefore, are the Government ignoring this evidence? proposals as we saw them last October. Is making Why do they believe that making people less secure at millions of workers’ lives more insecure a price worth work will be a positive contribution to creating jobs? 673 Employment Law[21 MAY 2012] Employment Law 674

In the Chartered Institute of Personnel and report includes other proposals and any decision to Development’s Labour Market Outlook of summer take them forward will be based on evidence. 2011, far more employers cited access to finance— The noble Lord, Lord Young, used the expression 28%—and candidates lacking the right skills—50%—as “firing at will”. I think that he is referring to the obstacles to business growth than cited employment element in the report that deals with no-fault dismissal. regulation. Those are areas where the Government We currently have an open call for evidence on dealing could give positive assistance, rather than being diverted with dismissal and compensated no-fault dismissal for by the dubious recommendations of the Beecroft report. micro-businesses. It is an exercise to shed light on the Is this another example of the Government’s failure to issue. It is right that we look at all the evidence before back business and to take the tough choices, such as deciding on any change. We are examining existing setting up a British investment bank, and, instead, of dismissal processes as a whole, including awareness their playing to the band of Back-Bench Conservative and understanding of the ACAS code of practice. We MPs who promote these job insecurity policies? are also seeking views on the concept of compensated In February, David Blanchflower, a former Bank of no-fault dismissal for micro-businesses, whereby the England Monetary Policy Committee member, said: smallest employers would pay compensation as a means “There is zero credible empirical evidence supporting … [the] of ending a working relationship fairly. It is about contention that Britain’s economic problems would be fixed by getting the balance right. It is about giving business slashing workers’ rights”. confidence to hire. That is why we have called for So, what evidence do the Government have? Would evidence, and we want to understand that evidence not having a different employment regime for businesses and make policy on the basis of it. with 10 or fewer employees, and those slightly larger, The noble Lord, Lord Young, raised a number of be a disincentive for growing small businesses to take issues, one of which was the training of business on extra staff? management. We discussed that issue in the debate on The Minister for Employment Relations, Consumer the SIs to which he referred. He will know that we are and Postal Affairs is quoted as saying in October looking carefully at this issue and that we are taking last year: action to make improvements on the basis which the previous Government put in place. He is right to say “I think it would be madness to throw away all employment protection in the way that’s proposed, and it could be very that it is an issue. damaging to consumer confidence”. The noble Lord also said that we should be focusing Has he now changed his mind? Interestingly, according on access to finance for businesses. I agree with that, to Hansard, the Secretary of State failed to vote on his and, indeed, we are doing so. He will also know that department’s own legislation on changing the unfair we have a debate on that subject on Thursday, when dismissal qualification from one year to two. Today he we will discuss the issue at greater length. is reported in the Sun as saying: “Some people think that if labour rights were stripped down, employers would start hiring and the economy would soar again. 5.41 pm This is complete nonsense. British workers are an asset, not just a Baroness Randerson: My Lords, I thank the Minister cost. I am opposed to the ideological zealots who want firms to for his Statement. I am glad that the Statement recognises fire at will”. that the UK already has a flexible labour market, and Why has he allowed his department to help write and that the Government acknowledge that that is a strength. support the Beecroft review if these are the views in Indeed, the Government have recently increased parental which he sincerely believes? rights, and that is an important addition. I recognise We face many challenges and businesses are giving that the enterprise and regulatory reform Bill already the Government strong signals about the important tackles some of the issues raised in the Beecroft report. things that will help them create more jobs—such as Does the Minister agree that any changes to employment resolving the issue of finance and ensuring that we law need to support and facilitate the positive and accelerate infrastructure investment. Those are the flexible behaviour exhibited recently by, for example, positive things that we need to do to inject growth into Vauxhall workers and their trade unions? There needs the economy. I look forward to the Minister’s response to be recognition that that sort of behaviour—the to my questions. product of good employer-employee relations—is very important for the development of our industry. It is therefore important to avoid any reforms that might 5.38 pm undermine that positive relationship whereby workers Lord De Mauley: I thank the noble Lord for his are regarded as an asset and not as a cost. comments. The context of this is a review of employment Given that the Government have had this report law to make it easier to employ people and to improve since 12 October 2011—some seven months—and their the growth prospects of our businesses across the response to it is simply to continue the call for evidence country. Surely all of us seek to achieve that. It was in and the consultation, they appear to be somewhat the coalition agreement that employment law would lukewarm about it. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten be reviewed over the course of this Parliament. Mr us on the depth of the Government’s enthusiasm for Beecroft was asked to report as part of that review, to it. Finally, does he share my belief that, at this time of provide a candid view of the law from a businessman’s international economic crisis, it is important that all perspective. His recommendations are not formally Governments throughout the world should be allowed adopted as government policy. The Government are to think outside the box, and of bold and imaginative pursuing a number of elements. Clearly, however, the ideas for the benefit of the economy and of all employees? 675 Employment Law[LORDS] Employment Law 676

Lord De Mauley: I am extremely grateful to my and that is surely very damaging for any workforce. noble friend for her comments. On the issue of Therefore, I hope that the Government will seriously co-operative behaviour between employers and employees reconsider this departure from existing practice. With and their representatives, I wholeheartedly agree that regard to the Government’s point that it may involve that must be the gold standard. She suggested that the more employment opportunities for people in small Government might be somewhat lukewarm on the firms, one has to recollect that small firms are mostly Beecroft proposals. I will not say that the Government low-paying employers, which the taxpayer already are either enthusiastic or lukewarm. The fact is that subsidises. To some extent, the welfare system, including they will consider each proposal on its merits. Some the welfare reforms that the Government are introducing, are being taken forward and some, no doubt, will not already subsidises low-paying employers, so why do be, but we will do this in a balanced way. She invites they need any extra so-called assistance? I do not the Government to think outside the box and be think that it is assistance at all. It will simply undermine imaginative, and that is exactly what we seek to do. a workforce’s sense of security and that will not help the economy or, indeed, future workplace relations. Lord Clinton-Davis: Why do the Government not Therefore, I hope that the Government will seriously denounce the idea of firing at will at this stage? Is it reconsider their proposal. not a complete affront to everything that the trade unions and responsible employers have fought for? Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I say to the noble Why has Vince Cable denounced this so emphatically? Baroness, Lady Turner, that, although we will not go Do the Government think that he is right or wrong? so far as to reconsider the whole thing, in the consultation we are taking account of comments such as the one Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I explained in my she has made. answer to the noble Lord, Lord Young, that we have an open call for evidence, which closes on 8 June. I Lord Martin of Springburn: My Lords, the one hear what the noble Lord says but it is important that thing that employers want is stability. I have noted that we listen to all the evidence, and that is what we are every time there is a change of Government, there has doing. I should emphasise that this proposal does not been a change in the employment laws. That cannot extend beyond micro-businesses, so it will not apply to help. It should be borne in mind that in many of our every single employer in the land. However, the cities, including my native city of Glasgow, unemployment Government are keeping an open mind. is climbing. The Government are encouraging people who are out of work to move to other parts of the Lord Faulks: My Lords, I am sure that many on this country. They will not do that if they feel insecure and side would equally deprecate anything that could possibly there is a possibility that they will be sacked. It must be said to smack of firing at will, and I very much be borne in mind that it is the small companies which doubt that the Government’s proposals will involve we are depending on to get people into the Labour anything that could be so pejoratively described. This market. I understand that it is consultation and I hope report was perhaps commissioned before the recent that he bears that in mind. Apprentices who are taken downturn in financial circumstances, and many of the on as trainees are employees like everyone else. It proposals will no doubt potentially be very expensive. would be a sad day if a young apprentice were taken Can the Minister assist me on the issue of parental on to a job and lost out on not only the job but the leave? I know that the Government were understandably apprenticeship. Will the Minister ensure that there are committed to improving that but I understand that the no further leaks from departments? That was a justified Beecroft report has costed it at approximately £150 million. complaint when the Conservatives were in opposition. Can the Minister assist the House on whether the We should not have documents leaked from government Government have changed their mind or whether, departments. considering that, they remain committed? Is it a matter on which they will generally be taking soundings and Lord De Mauley: My Lords, in response to the first listening to representations? point made by the noble Lord, Lord Martin, about the importance of stability for employers, I definitely agree Lord De Mauley: My Lords, the Government remain with him. The question we are addressing is whether committed to the coalition commitment to introduce the scales have tipped too far against growth. That is a system of shared parenting by 2015, and we are of what must matter to all of us, surely. With regard to the view that it will bring benefits to businesses. We the noble Lord’s comments on apprenticeships, I share have always said that we would introduce it from 2015 his enthusiasm for them and agree with him on that and we will shortly be publishing the government point. response, outlining the next steps. It is not something that we are rushing into. At the forefront of our minds Lord Teverson: My Lords, I believe that there is a is getting this right so that it does not impose additional problem in how the current system works in that burdens or costs on businesses. SMEs—I am involved with some—do not have their own HR staff. They go to professionals for help and Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I am sure the professional advice is inevitably always very that the Minister will not be surprised to learn that conservative. Even when there is a good case that many of us feel that the introduction of what one someone should be fired, which should happen only might call a “hire and fire society” is not likely to help when they have been given the chance of training and either the economy or future productivity.Many workers, have gone through the right appraisals, advice is often even in small businesses, will lose any sense of security, given to pay off employees rather than let the matter 677 Employment Law[21 MAY 2012] Employment Law 678 go to an industrial tribunal. The result is a psychology Secretary and ask him why he has not already followed in this sector that that has to happen, when in fact it the German example, if he really is serious about should go through to the end of the process and be reducing youth unemployment? resolved properly and equitably. It results in vexatious claims that wrongly scare SMEs when they do not Lord De Mauley: My Lords, of course I will draw fulfil the rights that they have when an employee that to the attention of my right honourable friend. should be dismissed. Will the Government consider that area of professional advisory conservatism to Lord Layard: Is the Minister aware of the great avoid the professionals being told, post event, that amount of academic research on the impact of they were wrong? employment protection legislation which has gone on over the last 15 years? The standard finding of this Lord De Mauley: I thank my noble friend who is research is that employment protection legislation has absolutely spot on. A number of measures will be no positive or negative effect on the level of employment. coming forward that will contribute to that. One of The reason is very simple: as is constantly said, of those, which is perhaps not so relevant for smaller course, if it is easier to fire people, you are more likely businesses, but which is indicative of what we are to hire them; but you are also, believe it or not, more trying to do, is to involve ACAS at an earlier stage. likely to fire them. The two balance out. Are the Government aware of this research? Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, I apologise for leaving shortly after the first two speakers; I nipped Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I am aware of a out to pick up the report. I agree completely with the considerable amount of research. I bow to the noble noble Baroness on the Liberal Democrat Bench—I am Lord’s greater knowledge of the academic research, of sorry but I cannot remember her name—on the flexibility course. The Government are absolutely committed to at Vauxhall that she reminded the House about. It is flexibility for employers and employees. We have consulted also important to remind the House not only about and continue to consult widely on a number of issues Vauxhall, but that over a period of real restraint, and, as I have said before, we will not take action apprentices have been going to Jaguar Land Rover unless it is on the basis of evidence. and many other organisations on their days off to have training. If that is not flexible, I am not sure what Baroness Meacher: Will the Minister explain to the is. Red tape is possibly a good thing to look at, but I House how the no-fault dismissal idea is compatible am anxious that the Government do so with the with the Government’s declared commitment to well- overall view of what modern workplaces look like. being? Will the Minister agree that job insecurity and They are very different from perhaps the view that unemployment are the greatest threats to mental well- some noble Lords have of workforces. Flexibility is a being, and also that high morale in the workplace is way of life. That does not mean exploitation but the best assurance of high productivity and therefore co-operation and the way in which people work together. growth? Will the Minister agree that any unsuitable It may not be red tape but it certainly is a red ceiling. member of staff can in fact be moved on by good There is an opportunity to look at why women are not supervision and management? Will he therefore assure getting on further in their workplaces. I do not know the House that this Government will encourage good whether it is red tape or how to describe it but it is a supervision and management, rather than heartless fact that women are still restrained in their grades and employers? not allowed to go further. I welcome the opportunity for a comment from the Minister on that as well. Lord De Mauley: I am sympathetic to what the noble Baroness says. As I have said, we are keeping an Lord De Mauley: I can find very little to disagree open mind on this issue of no-fault dismissal. It is a with in what the noble Baroness has said. I absolutely fact that the smallest businesses are less likely to have welcome the restraint that I know employees are exercising access to human resources and legal advice and are in this extremely difficult time. We really need and are therefore less likely to feel confident in applying procedures. grateful for their help where this is happening, and I I think that is one of the key issues. We want to agree with her that it is widespread. People are working examine whether a no-fault dismissal system for beyond the call of duty, and that is a huge accolade for microbusinesses would be helpful in dealing with this, our workforce. We spoke earlier about the need for particularly in increasing their confidence in employing co-operation between workers and employees, and people. that must be for the good. The noble Baroness asked about the Government’s Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, in repeating aspirations for women in the workplace. She will know the Statement, the Minister said that, that there is a great deal of work going on and that the “the UK is considered to have the third most flexible labour Government are very much focused on this as an market in the OECD and this is an important strength”. important issue. Will the Minister tell the House which other OECD countries operate a no-fault dismissal policy? In his Lord Ryder of Wensum: Is my noble friend aware Statement, the Minister also indicated that there is that unemployment in Germany has fallen by a significant clear evidence that employers have dismissed people margin over the last five years, largely as a result of simply on the basis that they are not liked. If that is supply-side measures that have been introduced by the the case, is he not therefore proposing in this Statement German Government? Will my noble friend please and in the report a gateway for discrimination against draw these measures to the attention of the Business a vast range of people in employment: women, people 679 Employment Law[LORDS] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 680

[LORD MORRIS OF HANDSWORTH] I chair, and the main Select Committee, which was with disability, and others? The Minister indicated chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Roper, to whom I that the report was about the confidence to hire. Does offer a fond farewell, and which is now chaired by the he agree that it is also a blank cheque to fire? noble Lord, Lord Boswell of Aynho, to whom I extend a warm welcome. The sub-committee focused on the Lord De Mauley: My Lords, the noble Lord asked economic and financial aspects of the crisis, while the whether any other countries had in effect a micro- Select Committee focused on institutional aspects and exemption. Germany does. He was also concerned was responsible in particular for the chapter on the about discrimination. Broadening the question, I will proposed treaty.I thank all the witnesses who contributed say that the Government will not tolerate discrimination to both elements of this complex inquiry. in the workplace. The committee began its inquiry in October 2011 Lord Bates: My Lords, will my noble friend confirm and the report was published in February 2012. Noble that the whole thrust and purpose of the review is to Lords will be well aware that the situation has become get people hiring again, not to get them firing, and that even more serious since then. One challenge that we it is part of a growth assessment? Does he agree that it faced, and continue to face, was the sheer speed of stands to reason that there must be one set of rules for developments in the crisis. Even though events have large employers—the Vauxhalls, the Tescos—with huge moved on since our report was published, it may be HR departments? If one of their workers underperforms, useful if I briefly remind noble Lords of the political they can provide them with the necessary supervision, context in which the inquiry was undertaken. Many training and reskilling. However, where a firm has issues that we considered remain to be resolved by the only two or three employees, if one underperforms EU’s leaders. then up to 50% of the workforce is underperforming. On 26 October, a key EU summit—already twice The firm will not have an HR department or supervisory delayed because of the difficulties in reaching skills, and did not employ a firm of global headhunters agreement—struck a three-pillar deal that included to hire the person in the first place. Therefore, different the exploration by private-sector banks of a haircut of rules need to be considered. at least 50% to Greece, an increase in the funding available to the EFSF rescue fund to ¤1 trillion, and a Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I could not have put it requirement on the European banks to raise ¤106 billion better myself. in new capital by June this year. Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, if the Government However,in November the crisis escalated dramatically. are interested in the totality of the German system, Amid mounting turbulence in the financial markets, rather than cherry-picking bits of it, they should look both the Greek and Italian Prime Ministers were forced at two-tiered boards and the involvement of the whole to resign and were replaced by non-party political workforce through works councils and strong trade figures—the former governor of the Bank of Greece, union collective bargaining. If the noble Lord is interested Lucas Papademos, and the former European Commissioner, in the success of the German model, will he look very Mario Monti. After a general election there was also a carefully at evidence of the whole of the German change of Government in Spain, whose own bond experience, because it seems that there is no evidence yields were coming under intolerable strain. available from the way Mr Beecroft has gone about his So pressure grew on European leaders for a more business? fundamental response. The ECB complemented its Lord De Mauley: My Lords, of course we looked programme of purchasing sovereign debt in the secondary very closely at countries we admire, such as Germany. markets with a major operation to provide long-term However, we are a different country, we have a different loans to European banks. Then, at the Brussels summit history and we are in a different position. Therefore, on 8 and 9 December, euro area nations agreed to a we have to do things our way. I emphasise that we will new fiscal compact that moved towards a fiscal stability do this in a careful, measured and flexible way. union, including the adoption by national Governments of a fiscal rule to achieve balanced budgets and stronger Brussels oversight of national budgets. EU leaders Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report agreed that some of these changes should be achieved Motion to Take Note through a treaty, but the United Kingdom Government, later joined by the Czech Republic, would not agree to 6.02 pm amending the EU treaties. This resulted in the adoption Moved By Lord Harrison of a separate international agreement on stability, co-ordination and governance, which I shall refer to as That this House takes note of the report of the the fiscal compact treaty. European Union Committee on the euro area crisis (25th Report, Session 2010–12, HL Paper 260). Our report sought to reflect on each of these serious developments. In the economic and financial context, Lord Harrison: My Lords, I am delighted to have we expressed deep concern about the extent of uncertainty the opportunity to introduce the debate on this report. that remained in the crucial area of bank recapitalisation. Sadly, I am rather less delighted by the circumstances How would it be achieved? How would banks be that required the report to be written and that make prevented from reducing their debt ratios by deleveraging today’s debate so urgent and topical. The report was a and hence reducing lending? How much damage would joint effort based on work undertaken by the Sub- a sustained restriction on credit do to an already committee on Economic and Financial Affairs, which struggling European economy? 681 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[21 MAY 2012] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 682

We also concluded that because of the risk of Last week, the Prime Minister stressed the importance contagion there was an urgent need to establish a of the very issues that this report highlighted, saying: credible and well financed system of rescue funding. “Either Europe has a committed, stable, successful eurozone We acknowledged that the primary responsibility for with an effective firewall, well-capitalised and regulated banks, a this must lie with the euro area countries, but given the system of fiscal burden-sharing and supportive monetary policy global implications we stressed that it was also necessary across the eurozone. Or we are in uncharted territory which for the international community, including the United carries huge risks for everybody”, Kingdom, to play its part, in particular through the including, one must conclude, the United Kingdom. IMF. The PM should explain why, if the euro area crisis is Although we highlighted the need for rapid progress crucial to the United Kingdom, we remain so semi- on the Greek debt write-down, bank recapitalisation detached in our engagement with our colleagues. In and the construction of a firewall, we recognised that the midst of such a gloomy economic picture, the such steps were unlikely to prove sufficient on their election of the new French President, François Hollande, own. We noted the unprecedented steps already taken on a platform of economic growth, has heightened by the ECB and found that, although we could be debate on the fiscal compact treaty and the austerity cautious about regarding the ECB as a panacea, additional agenda that it is perceived to entail, even before it has intervention was likely to prove essential. We also come into force. urged European leaders to consider the case for the On the new treaty itself, the Government said that introduction of so-called euro bonds. they went into the December European Council thinking We concluded by considering the longer-term issues, that the optimum outcome would be an agreement by although we recognised that long-term planning will all 27 EU member states, with the interests of the be irrelevant if the current crisis is not overcome. We United Kingdom, particularly in relation to the financial concluded that improved budgetary discipline is necessary services sector and the single market, being protected. in order to make progress in resolving the crisis, but As we all know, the Government did not get the ultimately the resumption of sustainable economic safeguards that they say they wanted, so they refused growth holds the key, both in general terms across the to join the negotiations to draw up the treaty. The European Union and in facilitating attempts to resolve committee was strongly critical in its report of the the serious imbalances between different countries in Government’s failure to keep Parliament properly the euro area. The committee argued that it was of informed about a decision that may have huge long-term great concern that the potential of the single market to ramifications by sidestepping releasing the text of enhance economic growth had faded from view during their prior negotiating position. the crisis. We suggested that the focus of policymakers I hope that the Minister will be able to give the now needed to turn to policies to support economic House a full account tonight of the Prime Minister’s growth that could be implemented effectively during a intended approach to the informal gathering of EU time of budgetary austerity. leaders taking place this Wednesday. I also hope that Subsequent events have shown how relevant this the UK’s preparatory work, in building alliances with analysis has been as the situation has deteriorated other member states, is rather more effective at this dramatically. Once again, we find ourselves in a phase and future meetings than it was in December. of escalation and of deep uncertainty. Noble Lords The key measures in the treaty are on budgetary will be only too aware of the significant recent political discipline, and they must be translated into national law, and economic turbulence in France, Spain, Germany, Ireland, the Netherlands, and above all Greece, where “through provisions of binding force and permanent character, a second election in a month will shortly be held. preferably constitutional”. Moreover, the parties most opposed to the austerity It should be stressed that only the euro area countries programme are expected to make further gains. will actually be bound by the key requirements of the The financial markets are in renewed turmoil, with treaty, although it appears that other signatory countries substantial falls on major stock markets. As recent are eager to adopt these rules. developments in Spain have demonstrated, the European The committee considered that the euro area states banking system is coming under severe strain. Economic must be free to take the steps they consider necessary growth in the euro area remains anaemic and would to defend the euro, including the key area of fiscal probably have been non-existent had it not been for integration. However, the committee emphasised that Germany’s recent strong performance. Indeed, the matters relating to the internal market must remain contrast in economic outlook between Germany and the preserve of all 27 EU member states. the euro area members under most pressure, such as Spain, Portugal and Greece, grows ever more acute. The speed with which the treaty was negotiated, and the fact that it is outside the EU treaty framework, Nor is the United Kingdom immune from all this. has left several important questions unanswered, including Not only has the economy fallen back into recession, its relationship with the EU treaties and the laws made but last Wednesday the Bank of England cut its growth under the EU treaties, and the proper role of EU forecast for the current year from 1.2% to 0.8% and institutions such as the ECB in relation to the treaties. stressed that the biggest risk to recovery in the United Some of the difficulties would be resolved if the Kingdom stems from the difficulties facing the euro proposed treaty was integrated into the main European area. The governor, Sir Mervyn King, has said, somewhat Union treaty framework, once the review of experience intemperately, that Europe is, with implementation suggested in Article 16 of the “tearing itself apart without any obvious solution”. fiscal compact treaty has taken place. 683 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[LORDS] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 684

[LORD HARRISON] to the report and the Government’s response. I hope I I note that the Government’s response to the report, may be forgiven for straying a little outside the narrow for which we are grateful, states that they are not confines of the report. opposed to the incorporation of the treaty into the However, I shall start with the report. The committee main EU treaties in due course, provided that there are was rather exercised about the December 2012 European safeguards to protect the interests of all 27 member Council and the circumstances surrounding the Prime states. We hope that our own analysis of the treaty has Minister’s use of the veto—it seems rather a long time been found to be valuable to other Parliaments. I was ago now. Unlike the committee, I have never been very pleased to be invited to Dublin in April to give curious about who said what to whom before the veto evidence to an Oireachtas committee inquiry into the was deployed. The most important thing was that the implications of the treaty in order to inform the decision UK demonstrated that we can—and will—use the to be taken by the Irish people on 31 May. veto to protect our national interests, and I was extremely Given the speed of developments since the report proud of the Government that day. was published in February, and the Government’s I am well aware that some noble Lords have criticised response in April, the committee looks forward, as I the UK’s veto as an isolationist strategy which will am sure the whole House does, to the Minister’s harm our role in Europe. I am quite sure that some in explanation of the Government’s current position. I Europe are extremely vexed by our stance on the crisis ask the Minister to include the following points in his and the chatter in Brussels may well be negative. The reply. In our report, we noted that national Governments European project has never liked independent thought and EU institutions have struggled to keep up with the or action. However, I have seen no evidence of extra pace of events. I think the point may have now come harm since last December and would certainly trade when Europe’s leaders have run out of road, and that some unpopularity within Europe for a clearer hard decisions now need to be taken about whether understanding that the UK’s own interests are paramount. the euro will continue to exist in its present form. I look forward to hearing from the noble Lord, Lord The Government’s position on the eurozone, which Sassoon, the Government’s assessment of the current I completely support, is that it is for the eurozone situation. What do the Government think is the most countries to sort out their own mess. When the euro likely scenario for Greece? started life, we could see that our economy was so unlike those on mainland Europe that we were more Shortly after our report was published on 20 February, likely than not to be damaged by being tied into the Prime Minister and 11 other Heads of State or policies not designed around our needs. We could also Government sent a letter to President Barroso and see that the countries which became eurozone economies President Van Rompuy setting out an agenda for were insufficiently convergent for the one-size-fits-all growth. The European Council at the start of March interest rate to be good for the whole euro area. came up with some sensible conclusions about developing the single market, and at the G8 summit at the weekend It is now plain that the low interest rates within the there were encouraging messages on growth. My next eurozone, which suited Germany’s economic strategy, question is: what specific progress has been made on have done massive harm in terms of inflation and the implementation of the growth agenda set out by asset price bubbles to other eurozone economies. The the EU at the start of March? What does the Minister euro arrangements lacked any instruments or incentives expect to be on the table for the June European to require economic reforms, so southern Europe remained Council to agree, and what is his assessment of the unreformed. But entry was voluntary and those volunteers impact of the election of President Hollande? must now find their own solutions. My final question concerns the status of the fiscal As noble Lords are well aware, I am a confirmed compact treaty. Do the Government still think it is Eurosceptic—sceptical about the whole project and likely that the treaty will be ratified by 1 January 2013? about the euro—but I take absolutely no pleasure in What contact have the Government had with the new seeing the current problems in the eurozone. The UK’s Government in France, and would they support further economic success is still too closely bound to that of discussions about the text of the treaty? the rest of Europe for problems across the channel to This is a hugely important issue. I am very pleased be any source of joy. My great regret is that the UK to have introduced it. I thank Stuart Stoner and Jake has tied its economic fortunes so closely to Europe Vaughan, as well as Laura Bonacorsi-Macleod, who and hence is vulnerable to economic success or failure acted as policy adviser for this important piece of there. We depend on European markets for roughly work. 40% of our exports. Our history as great exporters is in the past. Somehow, we have let the emerging markets grow without us, and it is shameful that we export 6.18 pm more to Belgium than to India and China combined. Baroness Noakes: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Lessening our trading exposure to the eurozone should Harrison, and his committee have produced an excellent be a government priority. report on the most critical issue facing the European I turn to the position of Greece, which dominates economy since the start of the EU. They are to be the headlines. Greece lied and cheated about its economic congratulated on it. affairs and, at one level, there is a certain satisfaction Given all that has happened—and indeed has not that it is now getting its comeuppance, but the medicine happened—in the eurozone since the report was published that has been forced down the throats of the Greek in February, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord people by the German-led eurozone group is more Harrison, is not expecting all speakers to stick rigidly than tough and more than painful for them. The 685 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[21 MAY 2012] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 686 imposition of an unelected Government was a particularly without fiscal union, and if that leads eventually to shocking development and it is no surprise that the greater political union—the dream of the European Greeks now reject austerity and what is demanded of federalists—so be it. It is a fact of life that the euro them. Greece needs devaluation, and it simply cannot exists, so breaking it up is going to be very painful and get that within the euro. It seems to me obvious that it is therefore in the British interest to push the euro to Greece cannot survive within the euro and should be its logical conclusion. The Government’s first priority encouraged to take an orderly exit. The longer that the is to protect Britain’s interests, and Britain’s interests European core tries to hold Greece in while imposing will be protected if the euro does not go into a disorderly impossible economic conditions, the more likely it is break-up. that an exit will be disorderly. The signs are not good. If there is closer fiscal and political union within In the past few months, there has been deposit the eurozone, that will at least lay to rest the question flight from Greece. Corporates routinely sweep any that seems never quite to go away about whether we cash out daily. Anecdotal evidence suggests that wealthy should join the euro. It will at the same time throw Greeks have been transferring large sums of money to into sharp relief the whole nature of our relationship other, safer eurozone territories—in particular, with the rest of Europe. I am not optimistic that the Germany—or beyond the eurozone. Now ordinary distinction between the internal market, which we will Greeks seem to think that keeping their money in the want to participate in, and the economic governance banks is not a clever thing to do, and a real bank run of the eurozone, which we will not, will stand the test could bring the Greek problem to a head. of time. It seems that the eurozone will be driven more I am sure that a lot of work has been done throughout closely together, and that that will drive the UK and Europe to model the consequences of a Greek exit, the other “euro out” countries away. The EU as we with best, worst and intermediate cases. I know that know it almost certainly could not survive a break-up my noble friend cannot give market-sensitive information, of the euro. but I would be interested to hear what he feels that he As we have had a trade deficit with the EU for a can say about the impact on the UK of a Greek exit. long time, we should not get paranoid about those Of course, the bigger danger is contagion. Cyprus problems. The eurozone countries need our markets and Portugal might well be early casualties—the former more than we need theirs, so we should be able to achieve because it is so intertwined with Greek banks and the our trading aims without the need to conform to every latter because it is a weak economy. They, too, could directive or regulation designed by the eurozone countries. probably exit with few repercussions. The real problems Of more immediate concern is the direct financial lie elsewhere, as the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, said. exposure of the UK. I congratulate the Government We have seen the cost of borrowing in Spain and Italy on bringing to an end our liability to the European rise towards levels which could easily be unsustainable. financial stability mechanism, which the party opposite The cost of credit default swaps are also, unsurprisingly, committed us to after it had lost the general election rising for those countries. Those are the judgments of but before it conceded defeat. It will be important to markets. Financial markets have judged that the actions avoid any further commitment. My noble friend the to date have failed to deliver a sustainable solution. Minister was only partly reassuring on this front when For example, last week’s overdue recapitalisation of he answered a Question from the noble Lord, Lord the Spanish banks was nothing like enough to deal Empey, last week. He refused to say in unequivocal with the underlying problems, which is why Spanish terms that the Government had no intention of providing bank yields continue to rise. further funding for the euro bailout. I hope that he can Markets want comprehensive solutions. Common be clearer today. The question is: will the Government issuance eurobonds would probably be a popular solution rule out providing any further financing to bail out the with markets, because they would involve a common eurozone? It is a simple question and requires only a commitment to a long-term economic solution. The simple yes or no answer. committee examined that. Markets need Germany’s financial commitment to the whole eurozone, not just 6.30 pm to economic policies, but Germany cannot or will not Lord Monks: My Lords, one of the small pleasures deliver that at present. If eurozone leaders come up of working in Brussels for eight years as general with more half-baked packages which depend on secretary of the European Trade Union Confederation extraordinary feats of austerity or are based on wishful was to be examined periodically by the House of thinking about growth measures, markets will reach Lords European Union Committee and to talk with their judgments and other weak countries in the eurozone others in the waiting room about just how serious and will be exposed. expert those sessions were, and how well respected the The G8 summit last weekend failed to do anything committee and this House is among those people on to reassure markets that the euro crisis will be dealt the inside who give evidence to it from across the with. If the position of Spain or Italy within the euro Commission and the other European institutions. I becomes untenable, the consequences would be severe thank the committee for a typically good piece of for Europe as a whole, including the UK. That is why I work. It is a balanced and sensible report on a very support the efforts made by my right honourable difficult situation. The tone of the report is about friend the Chancellor to urge the eurozone countries right as well; it is worried but friendly. It is constructive towards fiscal union. and trying to help, in a rather modest way—not in a I certainly would not have started with fiscal union. kind of “Britain knows best” way, which is too often Indeed, I would not have started with the euro at all, the tone of some of the critics of the euro and the way but there is no example of successful currency union that it has developed. 687 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[LORDS] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 688

[LORD MONKS] regional and social funds and a stronger financial base As the crisis has been developing in the eurozone, for the European Investment Bank? Can we take the there are more and more opportunities for those such lead on something? I believe it should be on a scheme as the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and others in this on youth unemployment which would impact on those House who tend to say to the other side of the countries where that problem is particularly serious at argument the four most annoying words in the English present. The UK could take these positive initiatives language: “I told you so”. The harsh fact is that this is from outside the eurozone. At present it is like a the most difficult economic crisis in the West since the frustrated football fan sitting in the grandstand shouting 1930s. It has probed and prised open the cracks in the plenty of advice that nobody takes any notice of. design of the euro system—and the cracks, by the way, The steps I suggest are not just gestures of help for in the economic system which the UK developed over the eurozone; they are self-help for the UK as well, the past 30 years, with our overemphasis on financial just as the Marshall plan was not just American services and our ignoring of the importance of generosity but American self-interest. If the eurozone manufacturing, and in some of the old-time truths can resolve its contradictions and do something to which underpinned the rise of this country in the past. deal with the cracks in its architecture, it will benefit How do we get by? Let us be frank in this House about itself, but it will benefit the UK as much as anyone. it. We get by through the devaluation of sterling, which is still 20% down against the euro, with all its troubles, and by quantitative easing, with our central 6.37 pm bank printing money. These two ingredients are one Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, it has been a reason—perhaps the main reason—why the UK recession privilege to serve on the Select Committee and to is not a lot worse than it is, but those options are not participate in at least some of its deliberations on this available to our neighbours in the eurozone. subject. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Harrison and Perhaps we should think for a moment what would Lord Roper, for presiding over those deliberations at a have happened without the euro and suppose that this time of great sensitivity and urgency to deal with these crisis had happened and that all the national currencies matters. The Select Committee’s report was published were still in place. Their values would have been moving in the aftermath of the Prime Minister’s walk-out around as some Governments were forced, or chose, from the December seminar. Although that diplomatic to devalue their currencies. Inevitably, had that happened mistake has had the lingering effect of diminishing accusations would be flying that the devaluations were Britain’s influence on decision making by the European a protectionist measure. That very powerful argument Union, I do not wish to rake over the failure to would have been going on in Europe at present. The disclose to the committee the interests that the Prime single market would be under considerable challenge, Minister was allegedly seeking to protect. Suffice it to as others considered taking retaliatory action against say that the reasons subsequently advanced by the those who had devalued their currencies. Indeed, if Chancellor of the Exchequer in his letter to the chairman our exports had been rather more impressive than our of the Treasury Committee of the House of Commons imports, and it was the other way round, we would were wholly unconvincing. As that letter makes clear, have had a much harder time from our European significant levies on the financial sector, partners than we have had since the devaluation of the “are subject to unanimity under the EU treaty”. pound took place. If the present situation is very The Prime Minister was playing to a domestic gallery, difficult, and I certainly acknowledge that it is, the not seeking to take forward the decisions that had alternative would be difficult too. been taken in principle by the October summit. It was a failure of the worst kind. British government policy is in the curious position of emphasising the virtues of austerity at home, in the The Government’s response to the committee’s report UK economic and political scene, while loudly proclaiming has some positive proposals that I commend and the growth and expansionary path in the eurozone. welcome. In particular, the Government claim that That is particularly aimed at Chancellor Merkel. This they are “leading the growth agenda”. I think some of leaves the UK wide open to a charge of, at best, the remarks by the noble Lord, Lord Monks, about inconsistency and, at worst, rank hypocrisy. After all, how we might lead it rather better should be taken on actions—not words—matter, and the shrinkage of the board by the Government. The answer to the report UK economy provides limited help to the economies makes it clear that there are certain longer-term goals of our neighbours in the present circumstances. Should in respect of reforming the single market that could we now not be asking ourselves how we can help the have a beneficial impact on our economy and some of eurozone do what it must do if it is to survive? Could those areas most under stress at this time. For example, we, for instance, publicly and intelligently support the in services there is huge overregulation in the domestic ideas of eurobonds and the mutualisation of some of law of too many European Union countries, notably the debt of the hardest hit economies? Could we not Germany. Digital union within the trade area is now encourage making the European Central Bank a lender likely to be achieved by 2015. That is a little way down of last resort like national banks so that it could stand the track, alas. The agenda also includes energy, which ready to rescue in the most difficult circumstances? is a noticeably disrupted economy, with member countries Could we not take a fresh look at taxes on financial taking very different views of it. transactions both to check reckless speculation, of It is also good to notice in the Government’s reply which we have seen far too much, and to act as a fresh support for a European research area and global and much needed source of public revenue? Can we openness via the EU free trade agreements with trading support the creative use of the surpluses in the EU partners. These are positive. Although the December 689 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[21 MAY 2012] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 690 diversion from the urgent need to particularise and sensible medium-term goals, will not be achievable in embed the principles agreed at the October meeting the amount of time available to set aside the crisis that caused further delay in coming to grips with the euro faces us immediately. area crisis, we are not alone in having been too tardy in Northern Europe is not ready to be tied to bailing responding. Indeed, the German and French attempt out its southern neighbours, despite the probable adverse to water down the Basel III capital rules as they apply consequences, including slashed production in most to Europe, even within the past month, must also be European and many other countries. Nor could Germany regretted. It seems clear that member countries of the take on the entire debts of the European region without Union have not faced up to the seriousness of the calling into question its own credit worthiness. All EU crisis in a coherent and constant way, with a direction Governments should be assembled in conference to set by their heads of government. work out an acceptable solution. Two-day meetings by Major decisions are now required. One is on the heads of Government are not enough. Some 74% of Greek debt write-down. A second is on bank the Greek Government debt is now held by Governments recapitalisation and the financing of the European and the IMF, which poses a massive threat to taxpayers. Union rescue funds. These have been too long postponed. There is no point in crying over spilt milk. Earlier As the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, pointed out, the restructuring would certainly have required more banks European Central Bank has been inventive in purchasing to be bailed out but that could have avoided the government bonds of euro area countries in financial confidence-sapping sequence of crisis. Roughly distress from the secondary market; in coming together ¤100 billion was paid to private creditors by the Greek with the central banks from outside the area to help Government before their bailout in February. provide liquidity support; and in the long-term refinancing The European conference which I am proposing of operations—the LTRO—which provides 500 European should aim further to write down Greek public sector banks with nearly ¤500 billion via three-year loans at debt, to fix a longer period in which to hit their fiscal very low interest rates. However, it is clear—particularly target, to agree to second immediate expert personnel so because of the current Greek crisis—that this has to work with the Greek Government and other Governments not been enough. in difficulty, and to achieve delivery, including structural It is worth noting in passing the evidence given to reform. There is also a need for liquidity support for the committee by the former Prime Minister of Italy, solvent banks and Governments. The natural liquidity Giuliano Amato, that although fully fledged Eurobonds backstop is the ECB, which has been mentioned by were not part of Germany’s current thinking, mutually speakers in this debate, including the noble Lord, Lord guaranteed project bonds for specific pan-EU projects, Monks. Lenders must be properly capitalised but that such as the development of the European power grid, has been postponed time and again in the eurozone. should be given consideration. I should like to hear The IMF considered that ¤200 billion was required from the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, when he winds lastyearbutonly¤100billionwasagreedbytheGovernments. up, whether the Government are giving serious The new European security mechanism would be a consideration to that suggestion, which seems to be suitable institutional arrangement to sustain the illiquid one that should treated favourably. Governments. The ESM could find itself short of Most commentators viewing the results of the Greek funds, which might be overcome by allowing it to elections have considered that the Greek Government’s borrow from the ECB. That idea appears to be favoured exit from the eurozone is now much more likely. The by successive French Governments, including President Greek opinion polls suggest that there is a growing Hollande. But insolvent Governments need to restructure recognition that the consequences for Greece would their debts and illiquid Governments need credible be disastrous. It is impossible to predict what may plans to reduce theirs. There is also a need to introduce happen by 17 June. However, what is to be done now? controlled resolution of undercapitalised banks. The stakes of shareholders have massively diminished in Lord Radice: My Lords, might the noble Lord also value. Bondholders could be bailed in to provide a remark that well over 75% of Greeks who have been buffer. Banks should be prepared to move to subscribing polled want Greece to stay in the eurozone? to such funds in due course. It is expected that the EU Commission will produce its own proposals in June; they should be fed into the Lord Maclennan of Rogart: I believe it is nearer proposed standing conference of member states. Unless 80%, which is an indication that the traditional parties member countries of the European Union come together might be worthy of greater support than Syriza, but it with appropriate expert support on a continuing basis, is not for us to comment on the internal politics that there is a grave danger that a Greek exit, leading to are leading up to the June elections in Greece. their Government’s default; contagious runs on banks I believe that it is not sensible to lecture Greece and in other countries; exchange controls being imposed; still less sensible to lecture Germany from the sidelines the new currency being devalued; and hyper-inflation about what they ought to do. Britain cannot take a being experienced in some countries and deflation in holier-than-thou attitude. Some time ago, the Chancellor others, will be a highly predictable consequence. We of the Exchequer spoke of the need for fiscal union, know that Argentina and Iceland managed to turn which we have heard repeated today even by the noble themselves around, but such chaos as I have described Baroness, Lady Noakes, to stimulate recovery and to in the euro area, the second largest economy in the make the eurozone a workable phenomenon. Others, world, with the largest banking system, needs to be including some German voices, have adumbrated steps treated as the paramount challenge to western democracies towards banking and political union. But these, although since the 1930s. 691 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[LORDS] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 692

6.50 pm philosopher ruler. Whether either Mr Papademos or Mr Venizelos is up to such a role is not perhaps for me Lord Marlesford: My Lords, both the noble Lord, to judge. However, at paragraph 133 of our report we Lord Monks, and my noble friend Lord Maclennan draw attention to the outburst of anger on the part of have warned us against advising or criticising other Greek politicians at the suggestion that there should countries in these matters. It always seems to me that be a budget overseer for that country. It seems to me one advantage of the privacy of your Lordships’Chamber that the danger now is that the second round of is that we can freely give advice to the Government elections may again result in a preference for the without much danger of it leaking out. rather destructive demagogues in the extreme right As the only other member of Sub-Committee A Golden Dawn and the hard-left factions forming the speaking today, I congratulate my chairman, the noble Syriza. There are rather frightening echoes in these Lord, Lord Harrison, on his lucid exposition of our economics and politics of how Hitler came to power findings. I also tell your Lordships that in the ever-changing 80 years ago. kaleidoscope of events in the euro area that we faced It seems to me most unlikely that Greece can, or during our inquiry, his skill as a chess master enabled should be, bailed out yet again. I think, therefore, that him to guide us through and sometimes even interpret it must leave the euro area, but I certainly hope that it the irrational, usually contradictory and often ill conceived remains inside the EU. Then what? There are two moves of the euro area. choices. The first is assumed, and that is the re-creation I am neither a Eurosceptic nor a Europhile. If I of the drachma as a new Greek currency. I believe that presume to symbolise anything at all, I would try this would be a disaster for Greece. It would be a always to use a pragmatic approach and describe currency that no one would wish to lend or to borrow. myself if anything as a Euro-challenger. The markets would ensure that it would be rapidly Never has it been clearer that the first commandment devalued and the Greek central bank would have to for a leader is to identify and then face reality. That resort to the printing press. applies in politics, economics and business; it applies especially to bankers and, above all, to central bankers. Lord Davies of Stamford: I agree with the noble Do not let us forget that one of the main architects of Lord’s analysis entirely up to now. However, does he our misery is that shrunken giant Alan Greenspan, agree with me that if the drachma collapsed, as it with his failure as chairman of the Fed to face—and certainly would, everybody would want to borrow in it still less to act on—the reality that he had, in fact, and have their liabilities in drachmas and their assets identified in the three years that led up to the summer in euros, and that that would be part of the problem? of 2007, when it became clear that everything would unravel. Lord Marlesford: My goodness, the noble Lord is The former name for economics was political economy, certainly a speculator. which underlines the crucial links between economics If Germany is prepared to pay not the cost of and politics. Even when the economic realities are bailing out Greece but the cost of redeeming the revealed, political forces often conspire to frustrate the Greek euro debt which already exists, we have to think hope of solutions. I intend to devote my own brief of something better than going into a Mickey Mouse comments to the situation in Greece and suggest a currency such as the drachma. The solution would be possible way forward for that country. for Greece to leave the euro area but to continue to use the euro. There are plenty of examples from past I should perhaps declare a rather remote interest in economic crises, such as Latin America using the that my great-grandmother was Greek and her uncle dollar and Yugoslavia using the deutschmark after was Capodistrias, who after he had represented the Tito died. The whole point is that using the euro with Russian tsar at the Congress of Vienna was, in 1827, a new central bank for Greece would impose a discipline persuaded to be president of Greece—and for his on the central bank and on Greece. Like anyone else, it efforts was assassinated in 1831 within five years of would be possible for it to use only the currency that it taking office. It was ever thus. could afford. It would not have any relation or connection It is perhaps relevant to remember that the British with the European Central Bank. It would be paddling Foreign Office argued strongly against the liberation its own canoe but it might well have to have some help of Greece from the Turk on the grounds that it would from the IMF. However, it might well produce a undermine the Ottoman empire and thus destabilise remarkable resurgence. Indeed, a noble Lord talked the Balkans. The words of the noble Lord, Lord about the possibility of financing certain projects with Monks, “I told you so”, may be echoed by diplomats eurobonds. This might be very possible if people could of today. Of course, it was Lord Byron and his friends see sound opportunities in Greece and they knew that who ensured that the advice of the Foreign Office was the currency being used was a proper international not taken on that occasion. currency. I think that that would be a real help. Noble Lords will remember that it was Plato himself who argued against Athenian democracy of the fourth Lord Lea of Crondall: The noble Lord has painted a century BC on the grounds that demagogues could use fascinating scenario, but how does he get out from it to prevent sound decisions. His analogy was a ship under the problem he referred to whereby, in a sense, controlled by ignorant and quarrelsome sailors who the demagogues fail to acknowledge that the real fall refused to believe that there was any such skill as in living standards would be a lot greater in the navigation and would write off a mere helmsman as a drachma devaluation scenario than in the internal useless stargazer. His solution was, of course, the devaluation of taking more medicine in the eurozone? 693 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[21 MAY 2012] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 694

Lord Marlesford: When Sub-Committee A looked This evening, my noble friend Lord Harrison has at the bailout, we saw again and again that the figures presented the House with a first-class, thorough and, I produced as necessary to prevent a catastrophe became think, essentially pragmatic report on the most vital ever greater by magnitudes. There is the old cliché economic issue of the day—the euro area crisis. I had about “A billion here and a billion there—you are a first read of the report over the weekend. I know that talking serious money”; we almost reached the stage it will repay further study and that it will be a guide to where it was “A trillion here and a trillion there”. If all of us in this time of extreme difficulty and uncertainty the prospects are for bailout, and that just continues, throughout Europe. whatever happens and however much worse it gets, it This is a time, if ever there was one, for stout-hearted has been fairly conclusively proved that people will men—and, in my case, just stout women—to rally to take advantage of a bailout. It is human nature. It was the European vision while holding our nerve, if both the present governor of the Bank who said that if actions can be achieved together. This is certainly not there is a run on the bank, the sensible thing is to join the time for the rather startling questioning of the it. Therefore, if the bank is prepared to bail you out, whole basis of our membership of the European the sensible thing is to accept the money. Union, as some in our political parties, especially My solution is that you impose a requirement to but not solely in UKIP, are engaging in currently, and earn the euros—but with some help through the IMF, this is where the bulk of my short remarks tonight will eurobonds, or eurobond investments—and you are be concentrated. As the report before us says thus able to rebuild your economy. I do not see, from unequivocally: the point of view of people living in Greece, that there “The EU, and the euro area in particular, face massive challenges is much difference between perhaps starting off with and there is a need for effective and proactive leadership both saying, “We are going to recreate the drachma; and the from the EU institutions and Member States, in the interests of drachma is equal to a euro”, and then finding that the the wider Union”— next day it is worth only half a euro, or, as the noble leadership, not carping, questioning and indecision. Lord, who likes speculating on these matters, might The importance of maintaining the euro cannot be think, the drachma would soon be worth only a quarter overstated for our fiscal and economic health of the euro. It would be a great deal better to recognise internationally. that the flexibility of having to have the euros with As we know, these are perilous economic times, as which to buy and pay for things would itself generate a the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, said. The UK is reality that, I believe, is lacking. running a trade deficit of £2.7 billion per month, unemployment is an extremely worrying 8% and our Lord Hamilton of Epsom: I am rather uncertain as annualised rate of GDP growth is so small that it can to how, if the Greeks basically default but stay with be detected only inside the Hadron Collider. Meanwhile, the euro, they would raise new debt in euros. we still sell around £15 billion-worth of exports to the EU27 alone each month. Around 30% of all imports Lord Marlesford: I do not think that they could do to Ireland, for example, are from the UK. so as such, except that, as I say, you might have a euro So I say this to those in the political class who are project in which people would invest. It would perhaps raising the possibility of referendums: with the turmoil be somewhat similar to the private finance initiatives in the eurozone and seriously depleted growth prospects that have been used by the British Government—not in Spain, Portugal, Greece, Italy and Ireland—although, entirely with success, maybe, but on balance they have as the report says, Ireland is giving us some hope for been a useful source of making things actually happen. the future—are we seriously suggesting that it is in the If people could see a good return, they would invest in best long-term interests of British companies and it. That is a perfectly sensible way of doing it and, British workers to start the debate about EU membership therefore, Greece would not be able to raise euro debt all over again, to revitalise the politics of what I would as such, unless the markets thought that that was call the very worst of provincial isolationism in Britain viable. That is where the self-discipline is. The self-denial and to tolerate the possibility that we could start of recourse to the printing press would be a solution. I dismantling every piece of European legislation introduced suppose I am really saying that if we get this form of in the UK since the 1970s? Do we think that it is in the self-discipline, which reality should require, and if this long-term interests of British workers and British were to work in the case of Greece, it could be an companies to send the signal to large global corporations example to other countries either not to follow suit and the Governments of the USA and China alike and to grasp the nettle for themselves, or to recognise that, in our troubled but emphatically interdependent that this would be a viable way forward. world, the British political class would prefer to give the British economy over to a kind of nervous breakdown 7.04 pm just because some people, who probably wear Union Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I add my congratulations Jack waistcoats when alone in their homes, want to go to the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, on the work of his back to the days of Commonwealth preference, pounds, committee and on his contribution today. He is a shillings and pence, black and white television, jumpers friend and a colleague of many years’ standing—indeed, for goalposts and long queues at airports for anyone going all the way back to our years in the European without that old black passport? Parliament, where he was especially renowned for his It is not a question of being pro- or anti-European championing of small and medium-sized businesses. I these days; it is a question of pro- or anti-economic know that he continues with that cause in your Lordships’ sanity. Withdrawing from Europe makes as much sense House. as the people of Hampstead declaring UDI from 695 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[LORDS] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 696

[BARONESS CRAWLEY] “It is a sovereign liquidity crisis ... countries that one hopes London, or trying to divert the flow of the Thames, or and assumes are most likely solvent, as far as the sovereign is shifting the UK’s longitude. No major party represented concerned … frozen out of the funding markets by markets in your Lordships’ House went into the general election panicking and refusing”, campaign promising a referendum on the European credit. It is not the markets that are panicking; they Union and this is certainly not the time to start. are acting entirely rationally in refusing to lend to Instead, I respectfully suggest that we should steer borrowers who they feel may not repay their loans. It our focus to what the report refers to as, is the eurozone Ministers, the European Central Bank “ultimately the resumption of sustainable economic growth”, and the European Commission that are panicking by across the European Union. We should also listen to using every sort of dodgy financial wheeze to keep the people such as Mario Monti, the Prime Minister of euro-zombie staggering along on ever-more expensive Italy, or President Hollande, who are beginning to forms of life support. construct a serious debate about the bridge between The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, mentioned the austerity measures and the vital necessity for growth. possible cost of this going forward, never mind the As my noble friend Lord Monks said, in his excellent cost that has occurred so far. I have discovered a contribution, this should be our sole focus in these rather shocking fact, which I will share with the House: difficult times. the bailout funds so far used to rescue the eurozone Before resuming my seat, I shall, if I may, congratulate are larger in real terms than the reparation payments the noble Lord, Lord Boswell of Aynho, and welcome and reconstruction plans of the First and Second him to his new duties, and thank the noble Lord, Lord World Wars combined. The reference is David Marsh’s Roper, for his excellent work over many years. book, The Euro: The Politics of the New Global Currency. All that in the name of what? Solidarity, cohesion, European destiny, what the noble Baroness called 7.11 pm vision. What a cruel joke that is. Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, like other How can anyone pretend any longer that the euro speakers, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, for project is anything but a disastrous financial and producing this useful report. I recognise, as the noble social failure? Greece is in near revolt, Spain has Lord, Lord Marlesford, said, that producing a report 25% unemployment and over 50% youth unemployment, of this sort entails a lot of work: a lot of reading, Ireland is in a double-dip recession, Italy is in turmoil, many hours of listening to witnesses and probably a 11 Prime Ministers have been booted out since the little bit of shut-eye, occasionally. euro crisis began—all this to keep the EU political Having said that, I am slightly disappointed by the bandwagon on the road and the euro delusion going, narrowness and rather blinkered focus of the report. I never mind the social and financial cost of doing so. I am disappointed but not entirely surprised because, as say to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that if he is a paid-up anorak, when I knew that there would be an interested in a bet on the euro or the drachma, the inquiry followed by a report, I wrote to the noble Lord, biggest financial exchange dealers in the world—ICAP, Lord Roper, who I congratulate on remaining in his at least—are all ready to deal in the drachma. He will place throughout this debate, suggesting that some of be able to indulge his gambling whim with them any the witnesses were one-sided—what I call Europhile time now, I guess. heavy. We had the foreign editor of the Economist, which is from the same stable as the FT, which has The best solution would surely be for Greece, and been wrong on just about everything for the past any other country that so wishes, to leave the eurozone. 20 years. We had Charles Grant of the Centre for The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, was absolutely European Reform, famously a Europhile think tank. right that that is their only chance of becoming competitive We had Professor Willem Buiter, always pro-Euro, and in a global economy. There is absolutely no hope for it Giuliano Amato. at all in the eurozone. The report should have said that They are all distinguished witnesses, but I wonder there is no hope for Greece and the other peripherals whether we should have had some more Euro-realistic while Germany is master in the eurozone. The Greeks views, which might have produced a greater balance cannot become Germans. It occurred to me while to the report. Why not economics Professor Tim reading the report that we could have had a monetary Congdon, Daniel Hannan MEP, Roger Bootle or union of countries beginning with S, it would have Ambrose Evans-Pritchard? If they were too strong been just as effective: Switzerland, Syria, Sweden, and meat for the committee, perhaps it could have had Serbia. There is no reason why that should not have Wolfgang Munchau from the FT. He has reinvented been as ineffective as the eurozone. himself to what he would call a Euro-realist. We are I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Monks, that left with a rather unbalanced and one-sided report, Britain’s interest is in a Europe that is economically with statements of the blindingly obvious, as in strong and vibrant. That is obvious. However, do paragraph 143, which states that, the Government really believe that this can be “there remains an urgent need to establish a credible and well-financed achieved by propping up at ever greater expense the system of rescue funding”. weapon of mass financial destruction that the euro Quite. has become? It is not the Government’s job and it is One point that I notice from reading through the not in the country’s interests to encourage the EU report, which is symptomatic of the tone and why I elite any longer in its very damaging political am quoting it, is that right at the beginning in Chapter 2, illusion. I hope that the Minister and the Government Professor Buiter says: will take with a heavy pinch of salt the blood-curdling 697 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[21 MAY 2012] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 698 threats that are already being issued by the Eurocrats The report rightly stressed that the fiscal compact should the eurozone break up. They should be heavily and other planned budgetary disciplines would not be discounted. enough to resolve the crisis. My noble friend quoted After all, we have been here before. Twenty years the report, which stated that, ago, Britain went through precisely the same experience “ultimately the resumption of sustainable economic growth will when it was stuck with an overvalued exchange rate in hold the key”. the exchange rate mechanism. As in Greece now, our “Ultimately” at the moment is the wrong word because leaders, all the main parties, the CBI, the TUC and the as we know, and as my noble friend mentioned, to Bank of England assured us that leaving the ERM some extent the report has been overtaken by events. would be disastrous. On 11 September 1992, the Prime The arrival of President Hollande and citizens’ revolts—if Minister John Major solemnly told us that withdrawal I may call them that—in Greece, Spain and elsewhere was: have already pushed growth back on the agenda, and “The soft option, the devaluer’s option, the inflationary option President Obama nudged the eurozone in this direction … a betrayal of our future”. at the G8 meeting. Four days later, we left the system. The noble Lord, The question of the hour concerns the relationship Lord Lamont, who I am sorry is not here, was apparently between austerity and growth—terms that I do not singing in his bath at the time. Our recovery began like very much. Rather than austerity we are talking immediately. Inflation, interest rates and unemployment about a version of economic sustainability; austerity started falling and we enjoyed 15 years of unbroken is the wrong word. On growth, we have to ask what growth and prosperity. kind of growth, whom it will be for, who will receive That is what the Eurocrats really fear: that if Greece the benefits and how it will be distributed in society. A gets out it will be a success, and other countries will resumption of growth that goes to only 0.05% of the want to follow and also get out of the eurozone. Then population will not serve any social benefit. the whole rotten house of cards will crumble. That is While we talk about the relationship between these two what they fear, and that is what will happen. elements, we should not offer facile solutions. At this juncture we need profound rethinking, mainly because 7.20 pm there has been a generalised loss of competitiveness in the West which I would trace back for at least the past Lord Giddens: My Lords, I congratulate all noble 25 years. This decline in competitiveness in relation to Lords involved in writing the report, which is insightful, the large developing economies has been happening. well reasoned and fairly non-partisan. The eurozone is In spite of everyone lauding the reforms that the on the edge of collapse into a precipice, and with it the Germans have made—I am happy with that because I world economy. However, it is important to recognise was, in a marginal way, involved in some of them, that the situation of the EU as a result of this has been especially Agenda 2010 and reform of labour markets— completely transformed. There is no way that the EU even Germany is not competitive in world markets; it can stay as it is. There is no way that the traditional is competitive because of the shelter of the euro. A cumulative method of building the European Union very good paper has been written on what would can be sustained in such circumstances. Federalism in happen if Germany withdrew from the euro, which is some sense—including fiscal integration, as noted in that large chunks of its industry would become the report—is the condition of the survival not only of uncompetitive overnight. eurozone but, in any essential sense, of the European Union. In contra-distinction to what the noble Lord, Lord The situation is dramatically affecting politics. I do Willoughby de Broke, said, this is not just a crisis of not think that anyone has noted this, mainly because it the eurozone. My noble friend Lord Monks put it well is so blindingly obvious. Something extraordinary is when he said that the generalised crisis of competitiveness going on politically across Europe. It is a Europeanisation in western economies has driven apart and revealed of politics far beyond anything that has ever happened. the frailties which were there in the euro project from This is true both where Governments have been replaced the beginning. So the future of the euro, if I may put it without elections, as in Greece initially and in Italy, this way, is not only a matter of the euro. and in countries that followed due electoral process, Let me make a few points about the relationship such as Spain and France. The same will certainly be between austerity and growth. Although I said that I true of Germany. The German election will be fought have strong reservations about the terms and would largely on European terrain. It is hard to overestimate like them to be dropped, the Prime Minister was right what a massive transformation this is, although of to say that the two are not inconsistent with one course it occurs as a result of forces that are extremely another. The key difficult question economically is difficult to manage. what is the relationship in the context of not only a It is possible that we will never go back to national national economy such as this one but in the context politics in Europe. Of course, the eurozone could of the more generalised European economy. collapse, in which case there could be a reversion to My main objection to the Government’s programmes the pre-existing system—but I think that that is very in this country is that they do not seem thought unlikely. Probably the whole scope of European politics through. You cannot even say whether a cut is a cut has changed, and one could say that maybe national unless you trace out the knock-on economic implications politics will never again hold the stage in Europe in the of whatever reductions have been made. This is quite way that it did in the past. This is high drama by any close to home to me, working in the university sector, reckoning. because the Government’s reforms of universities could 699 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[LORDS] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 700

[LORD GIDDENS] 7.32 pm produce a situation where there is less revenue coming Lord Dobbs: My Lords, I am also tempted to stray a in than there would have been if the reforms had been little from the committee’s report this evening, although differently structured. This is partly because universities not before paying tribute to the excellent work of its generate a lot of revenue anyway and partly because of members and also adding my welcome to my noble the esteem with which they are invested on an international friend Lord Boswell of Aynho in his new position. level. In many areas the Government have not thought through the knock-on implications of their programmes It has not been a very good week for political of cuts, and if you do not do that you cannot develop classes and elites, and I am told that it is only Monday. a sound plan for the future. Over the weekend, NATO’s strategy on Afghanistan seemed to have been taken over by the Grand Old As has now come to the fore with the advent of Duke of York—lost in confusion, trying to remember President Hollande and Mario Monti in Italy, Keynesian- whether he was supposed to be marching up or down style infrastructure investment can make a difference the hill. Then, of course, we had the summit discussions if it is carried out on a European level, is funded by the on Europe, where the only consensus seemed to be European Investment Bank and is invested in sensible that Europe is in a terrible crisis. Europe is in chaos, projects—not roads but, for example, the building of and things will get worse. an integrated pan-European grid, with a fair chunk of I commend the committee for its report. I take to renewable energy in it, would be a sensible and systematic heart its opening lines about the need for leadership. project. As the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, himself has so ably It is obvious that the debate at the moment is being set out, we have seen so little of that—so many of carried on between, as it were, the neo-monetarists Europe’s leaders seem blind and bereft of ideas. You and the neo-Keynesians and I find it very inadequate. can hear the mantra falling from the lips yet again, I do not think a Keynesian solution will generate the “One last push and it will all be over,”. We in Europe jobs and style of growth we need any more than a seem to have learnt nothing for almost 100 years. revamped neo-liberal position. We need something I listened in amazement over the weekend to President more basic and more innovative than that. In general, Barroso. I beg his pardon, because I mean him no we have to think much more innovatively. personal discourtesy, but his statement was like tugging Even though one can talk about sustainable growth at the tulips to see if the roots were still intact. Your and growth in general and say that one is in favour of committee spoke of—I believe the noble Baroness, it, in current conditions it is extremely hard to achieve Lady Crawley, also quoted it, although that is as far as in any western economy. The US is finding it as I will be going down the path with her this evening—a difficult as the core European economies are, although need for effective and proactive leadership from the EU this is disguised by the effects of the euro in the institutions and member states. Where has that been? eurozone. Over the weekend Mr Barroso’s response to the A good example of the difficulty is that one of need for leadership was to say that, the main arguments for generating new jobs produced “there is only plan A”. in this country and in the European Union 2020 There is no plan A. It is a meaningless concept. There document is that the EU should be at the cutting edge is nothing but a fog of indecision. Europe’s leaders of technological innovation. It could do this, for example, talk about Greece, the euro and binding undertakings, in the energy industry and keep ahead of competition but they refuse to address the key issue: the increasingly from the large developing economies. However, this is incoherent fiscal and political system that underlies not possible in any straightforward, facile way. You and is undermining—indeed destroying—the euro. only have to look at the history of the German solar I have always wondered why Europe should need industry to see this. It is exactly the sort of industry three expensive Presidents—not just Mr Barroso, but one would expect to keep the German chunk of the two others as well—and of course two even more European economy ahead of other parts of the world. costly Parliaments. They can only come up with one However, the Chinese started constructing solar panels bankrupt idea: plan A. But perhaps there is a plan A*. much more cheaply, with a higher level of technological We heard it again over the weekend: a strategy for sophistication than the Germans could manage, more growth. Why did I not think of that? Where have I or less undermining the German industry completely. been? I must have been a stonkingly dull pupil all these The same thing has happened in the United States. years. If platitudes could come to our rescue we would To me, this shows the scale of the task in front of have floated off the rocks long ago and would today us. In Europe we have a double task. We have to save be singing from the top of Mount Olympus. the eurozone because, contrary to what has been said Plan A, plan B—whatever plan has so far been by some other speakers, flawed though it is, it is really devised—will not do. This cannot do. The people tell the condition of some kind of stability, economic and us that, which is why in country after country since otherwise, in the European Union. Therefore, it is this crisis began Governments have been swept from imperative, but the task, if you link it through with a office—all of them thrown out, with one exception: generalised loss of competitiveness, is truly formidable. Estonia, where a Eurosceptic centre-right Government As an academic, social scientist and economist, I somehow managed to increase their majority. I draw think that we do not actually have the concepts and no general rule from a single example, as much as I am the ideas we need to break through the situation. tempted to, but the evidence of every other election is Therefore, we are reduced to this rather stale confrontation surely compelling. Those who are responsible for the of traditional economic orthodoxies. crisis have been called to account. 701 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[21 MAY 2012] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 702

As I gaze across the battlefield of Europe, littered of international institutions, which he sees as indispensable with corpse after political corpse, I have to wonder to the future of humanity. That conviction of his has about Brussels, about the system and about Mr Barroso enabled him to be such an effective operator. and his colleagues. Why is he—and the rest of them—still It was interesting to contrast two trenchant speeches, there? How many of them have been asked to resign or that of the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, and that of apologise or accept their share of responsibility for the my noble friend Lady Crawley. The noble Baroness, chaos? Not a single one. They seem to inhabit a Lady Noakes, finished by expressing her admiration parallel universe of different rules, while Greece is for the Government and the Prime Minister for having condemned to paralysis, stagnation—and perhaps made it absolutely clear that, whatever happens, the salvation, but those in Brussels demand still more, British national interest will be central to their 7% more. Those whom the gods wish to make mad considerations. The problem about that thesis is, as my they first seem to send to Brussels. noble friend pointed out, that we live in a totally The stakes are terrifyingly high. I was taken with interdependent world. It is a false analysis to suppose the warnings of the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Clegg, that you can look to the national interest without the other day. He is not a man whose insights I have looking to the international interest, because our long-term regularly praised in the past, but he talked about his well-being, survival and prosperity depend on the fear that economic failure could lead to political extremism stability and well-being of the international community and chaos in parts of Europe. That was echoed by my of which we are inseparably a part. That in an immediate noble friend Lord Maclennan. He is surely right to sense starts in the European Community, of which we give voice to those fears. There is so much at stake. are in so many ways very much a part. Instead of prosperity, Europe will get bankruptcy. Instead of peace, Europe could be filled with burning The difficulty is that we face a challenge. The challenge barricades. Instead of parliamentary democracy, we is not just all the financial nightmares with which we could all too easily find tolerance being trashed in have been dealing; it is the dilemma with which people country after country. feel confronted. On the one hand, they are utterly dependent on effective solutions in an international It requires leadership to see a way through this context; but, on the other, they find globalisation and tangle. I welcomed very warmly what the Prime Minister regionalisation quite threatening, because a large number had to say over the weekend. His words were wise— of them feel that they are losing their sense of identity perhaps not welcome in every quarter but sometimes and purposeful significance. That was true of what we it is necessary to shake the tree to get at the fruit. He saw in the Arab spring. The Arab spring was not just said that the people will decide, and in Greece they will about economic and social injustice; it was people do that in the form of an election that will be seen as a asserting that they mattered and wanting that to be referendum. The people must decide—not the political recognised. As we have the institutions today, they do classes, who by and large have offered nothing but not feel that. They see them as remote and impersonal; arrogance and indecision in heroic measure in recent they see them as the preoccupation of a political elite years. It is the people who will suffer the consequences of which they would regard us a part. That is the point of failure, see their jobs taken from them, their pensions that I make to my noble friend—my good friend—Lady smashed and their hope and ambition for the future Crawley. taken from their children. This is not a decision that can be left in the hands of politicians with gold-plated Although of course we could argue that this is the pensions, even gifted philosopher kings such as those very time not to start a major agonising debate, we can praised by my noble friend Lord Marlesford; it is a equally argue that it would be sheer obstinacy of the decision for the people to make. worst kind to pretend that there is not that crisis, to I therefore take to heart the Prime Minister’s pretend that people are not disillusioned, that there is words and the inexorable logic of his argument, which not a crisis of confidence among them, and that they is that what is good for the Greeks must be even better are not feeling alienated—let us be prepared to use for the British. I look forward to those Greek elections that word—from the processes in which we all participate. and hope that they will clarify some issues, just as I I do not separate myself from that. As someone who look forward with even greater anticipation to the was fashioned and grew up during the Second World referendum that must at some point surely follow in War, I put my commitment to the European project this country. second to no one, but we have to face up to the seriousness of the human challenge, not just the economic challenge, that confronts us. 7.40 pm Lord Judd: My Lords, I join those who have thanked In a reflective moment, if we are looking for strong the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and his committee international regional institutions, confederalism may and congratulated them on having had the courage to well produce them more successfully than federalism. put their heads above the parapet and produce this People want to feel that they belong to something with report in the midst of all the challenges that face us. I which they can identify. The challenge is to enable also take the opportunity of joining others, including people to see that that is not enough. We must reintroduce my noble friend Lady Crawley, in putting on record the whole concept of international co-operation, my admiration for the service given to this House by emphasise it and start giving it muscle. the noble Lord, Lord Roper, as Deputy Chairman of As we look, more immediately, at the euro issue, Committees. I have known him for 59 years and there there are those who say, “Of course we could not find has been a consistent theme from which he has never a solution for our economic affairs in Europe while we deviated in his life: a commitment to making a success had a euro without the fiscal discipline that should go 703 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[LORDS] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 704

[LORD JUDD] see how they want the issue tackled. That of course with it”. It is about not simply fiscal disciplines but a has profound implications for us but we brought that cohesive social and economic agreed agenda; I do not on our own head. see how we can have sustainable stability without one. It is absolutely clear in the midst of all this that the When I was a Minister of State at the end of the problem with the principle of unbridled market philosophy Callaghan Government, we used to consider agonising is that it emphasises the short term and squeezes out issues. In my view, it is wrong to suggest that the the longer-term perspective. One only has to think of urgency of the economic crisis means that economic the environmental issues as a good practical example and social priorities must wait. It is in times of economic of that. That is why we have to have balance and why stringency and hardship that economic and social an ideology of either left or right is not in itself priorities become more important than ever. If the enough. We have to have more pragmatism and more remedies are to work, they must be in a context in balance in the way we handle the issue. which people feel confident that there is a prevailing I therefore conclude simply that what depresses me ethos of social justice. most about our predicament is that we are mesmerised I find it very interesting that if you look at either by an almost neurotic search for some kind of structural, end of the spectrum you get the same conclusion. technical solution. If I have come to a conclusion Adam Smith did not write first, as a young academic, about life, it is that no structure ever achieved anything about liberal economics; he wrote first about ethics. of itself. Structures are inanimate; it is the objective He was a highly ethical man. He approached his against which the use of the structure must be judged economic theory in the context of a strong ethical that matters. It is the quality and values of the people commitment. The late Lord Soper, when the Berlin operating the structures that matter. We have to regain Wall collapsed, made the profound observation that it a sense of vision, meaning: what kind of Europe do we is not a matter of socialism having been tried and want and need in the midst of this overriding reality of failed; it is a matter of socialism having demanded an interdependence? How are we going to turn what is a ethic of which humankind has so far proved itself massive crisis into an opportunity by asking the profound incapable. questions? I hope that my noble friend will forgive me Therefore, whether you are looking at it from a for putting it as bluntly as this but, yes, I am asking capitalist perspective or a more socialist perspective, profound questions. Where and why has it all gone the indispensability of the ethical priority cannot be wrong? Now what has to be done not just to patch it overemphasised. We have to reassert in Europe, and in up but to find lasting solutions for the future? this country, the overriding importance of ethical discipline, not just fiscal discipline. If not, either system 7.55 pm is doomed—I put it as strongly as that. What we have Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, that was a is a system in which greed has got out of control and very eloquent speech by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. in which, as has been often said of late, risk has been There are real concerns about what has happened to socialised and wealth and profit have been privatised. the moral framework underlying the market. For lack That is a recipe for tension and instability in society. It of time, I cannot go into that and will follow the noble is the key issue that has to be tackled. Lord in only one respect: in paying tribute to the noble This is also a moment to pause and consider the Lords, Lord Harrison and Lord Roper, for an insightful, issue of democracy itself and how it can work, which thoughtful and brilliantly written report. I add my of course brings me back—I must be honest about congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Roper, on the it—to my own political orientation and attitudes. I way in which he has led the committee, which still have never understood how you can have a democracy produces work of the highest possible quality. if you have not got the accountability of economic Let me say right away that the committee report power. What we are seeing is that we simply have not calls for leadership. A necessity for leadership is adequate had the effective accountability of economic power information, and that leads me to ask the Minister a where it matters. The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, direct question. Is there any prospect of the Prime whom I have been fortunate to know as a friend as Minister’s draft protocol and the safeguards that he well, because we came into this House on the same called for at the December Council of Europe being day, was very right to remind us of what happened in made public—after all, it is now nearly six months Germany in the 1930s: of how the forces of Hitler and later—so that this House and those who are concerned fascism gained momentum and what the social realities about the future of Europe can have the profound were around that. discussion that they are capable of, but which is made I am sorry if I have said this before in this House—well, more difficult because they do not have the information I am not sorry, but I recognise that I have said it they need to pursue that matter? before—but this is a juncture where I wish that we had Signor Amato, the former and very good Prime more expression of some solidarity with the Greek Minister of Italy, said honestly, “We have made a great people, because it was certainly not them who caused mistake”. The great mistake in the creation of the euro the crisis in which they find themselves. The noble was the failure to recognise that not only was a technical Lord was right to say that the Greeks must make outcome required but a profound institutional change the decisions for themselves. We cannot make them as well. In its pursuit of democracy within Europe, the for them and it is absolute madness to start lecturing European Commission and the other European them on their responsibilities. They have suffered institutions specifically required that. Some Members enough. They have to weigh it up for themselves and of the House will remember the Copenhagen criteria, 705 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[21 MAY 2012] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 706 a brilliant set of requirements for creating a real Lord Davies of Oldham: I was not going to be democracy. They range from independent courts up to excessively critical of intellectuals. I accept what my the necessity for free and safe elections. The Copenhagen noble friend said but I translated it to the political criteria are still being discussed with Turkey. They because that is what this House is here to do. We are create the kind of countries that become part of the not a debating Chamber; we are the second House of kind of Europe for which the noble Lord, Lord Judd, a very significant Parliament in a Europe that is faced called. In the case of the euro, no such provision was with the most colossal difficulties. That is why we have made. There was no period of transition and no to address ourselves to the issues. requirement that the basic, fundamental institutions I greatly applaud the work of my noble friend Lord of the eurozone had to be laid down by nation states. Harrison. When the report was being drafted, things One of those institutions is an honest and transparent were not quite as critical as they have developed to be fiscal system. It is not polite to say so, but the truth of over the past two to three months. Nevertheless, my the matter is that very few rich people in Greece, Italy noble friend and his report clearly reflect the difficulties or Portugal ever pay taxes. At most, they pay nominal and tensions faced by the committee in producing a taxes, and that is not a basis on which one can build a response to the great challenge of the crisis in the sound and lasting eurozone. Institutional reform is eurozone. crucial. Let us get one thing absolutely clear. The reason we For lack of time, I shall make only two other points. cannot walk away is that Britain has nowhere else to First, we should ask why the ESM, which is not yet walk. Robert Chote is the chair of the OBR, in the with us, but will be within a few weeks, decided not to work of which not just the Chancellor but the Minister require there to be a general mutual agreement by in this House invest so much credence. What does he stakeholders alongside taxpayers to share the pain of say? He says that we face a catastrophic situation if the changes that are required. That was a very profound Greece moves out of the euro; we face catastrophe as mistake because one of the real challenges to democracy far as the eurozone is concerned. The recession will go is that when there is pain and sacrifice, it must be on for several more years. There will be deflation. shared among society. I agree with the noble Lord, Unemployment will rise from 8% to 11%. Therefore, Lord Judd, that it cannot be loaded on only a section we will be in a situation in which our own people will of society while the other part goes untroubled and suffer severely because of this development. That is untainted by the need to meet the requirements that why the one thing that the British people will not are laid down. accept—nor do I see any reason why other Europeans Finally, the president of the IMF, Christine Lagarde, should accept it either—is politicians throwing up made a terrifying, chilling remark: “We may be sliding their hands and saying, “This is beyond us”. We may into a 1930s moment”. I very much commend what have limited intellectual concepts to get beyond noble Lords have said about the real dangers to democracy Keynesianism or monetarism as an economic theory from what is happening now. We must recognise that for the future, but we must put together some kind of none of us can bale out of those requirements. They strategy for improvement. Without that, we renege on are part of what it is to sustain democracy at a our obligations to people. particularly hard time. The noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, says that the people will decide. Let me say that people who have lost trust 7.59 pm in their politicians can reach some very dramatic decisions. We possibly see it in Greece at present. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, this has been a What if the British political community also began to fascinating debate. I am sure that when the noble reflect that we have no means of protecting our people Lord, Lord Harrison, began his work with the committee in this crisis? A total calamity would be visited upon on this report he scarcely anticipated that we would us and we would deserve it. Of course, I respect how have quite such a wide-ranging debate. It has ranged difficult these issues are. I know that the Minister will from practical solutions for how we might emerge be challenged in his response to this report. However, from the difficulties to the cataclysmic perspective that it is essential that we recognise that we must look for the game is up and we may as well fold up our tents some steps forward. and go home. There are two dimensions to this debate to which I have the greatest difficulty in responding. I have great Lord Dobbs: Is it now the policy of the noble Lord’s difficulty in responding to my noble friend Lord Giddens, party to support a referendum at some point on not because I do not respect his analysis but because I Europe? The other day, I heard an interview with his cannot cope with the situation. He says that we, as noble friend Lord Mandelson who said that a referendum politicians, do not have the intellectual machinery or might be a good idea, although another of his colleagues concepts to get ourselves out of these difficulties. That said, “I wonder what he meant by that”. At the end of may be so but I assure my noble friend that that will the day, does the noble Lord want the people to decide not stop politicians trying. our fate and the direction of Europe, or should this still be simply a matter for the political elites? Lord Giddens: I did not mention politicians once. I was talking about intellectuals, saying that we do not Lord Davies of Oldham: I would say, not at the end have the capability to resolve the issues that face us at of this day. We have so much to do before we could the moment. Therefore, it is not surprising that politicians even begin to prepare a referendum and the question are struggling, too. that that would represent in realistic and proper terms 707 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[LORDS] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 708

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] who have helped to build the European project, who to the British people. I will not rule it out altogether. under Monsieur Hollande are taking a somewhat We are accustomed to referenda in certain circumstances. different view on the next stages. You cannot talk to the people in terms of “We are It is quite clear that the eurozone has to take giving all power to you for you to take this decision actions itself. We cannot play a major part. But it is because we as politicians have not got the faintest idea the case that 40% of our exports go to Europe. It what the question should be or how it should be establishes the British economy in a weak position, answered”. That is what I am arguing against. because we are related to the euro countries in those I am confident of the fact that European politicians terms; there is no ready alternative. If you ask any of will take important steps to make progress out of this our major companies or anyone else concerned with situation. What will they do first? Let me be clear, export trade, they do not turn round and say, “Because we should not visit upon the Greeks the well constructed the eurozone’s in such trouble, we’re looking forward animosity that infects all our right-wing press at the to such wonderful opportunities to challenge the Chinese present time. The Greeks are such a small fraction and the Indians and others elsewhere in the world”. of the European economy that they are not a threat They do not say that at all. They say that we should do to anyone. Their loss is marginal. It is certainly a something about sustaining the most crucial market marginal aspect as far as our exports are concerned. that we have—the eurozone countries. But the Greek withdrawal from the euro would represent I am quite sure that the Minister’s response to this not one country having left the euro, it would be a debate will be expressed in very different terms to recasting of the nature of the euro. The euro would mine, but I hope that at least what I have done for him come rather more closely to some kind of a currency is to help to disperse the rhetoric so that we can regime from which some could defect at a time. But as concentrate on what practical politicians will have to to the consequences, Greece would be just the first of do to get us out of this situation. the victims. Then the pressures would inevitably be presented on the next weakest currency. We have already got pretty well a checklist of how that succession of 8.12 pm activity would take place. It is certainly the case that the Greeks did not create this situation. We should The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord have some respect for a nation which has such a Sassoon): My Lords, I welcome this opportunity to significance in its past for European society. But the discuss the European Union Committee’s report on Greek withdrawal from the eurozone would create the Euro area crisis. I first thank the noble Lord, Lord enormous difficulties for all. The contagion would Harrison, and the committee for its thought-provoking merely spread. analysis, and particularly my noble friend Lord Roper for not only this report but all the other truly excellent What is to be done in these circumstances? It is work that the committee has done in recent years, clear that we have to play our small part. Because we which I am fully confident will continue at that excellent are not part of the eurozone, we are on the margins of level under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord this exercise. We are even more on the margins because Boswell of Aynho. the Prime Minister walks out in a huff or presents a The House is aware that these are difficult and veto whenever things do not go right. We are not quite dangerous times for the European and the global sure what has gone wrong. As the noble Baroness, economy. The ongoing crisis in the Euro area continues Lady Williams, indicated, we never got the facts of the to undermine confidence and growth right around the basis of such a decision. But the Prime Minister is world. We have kept the UK out of that storm by good at chiding nations from the sidelines, giving taking decisive and resolute action to tackle our deficit, good advice and lecturing others while not being but it is in our vital interest that the Euro area reaches conspicuous by his success at home. If these countries a lasting and sustainable resolution to the crisis, and it are being told to pursue a strategy in which they have needs to do so quickly—a point firmly emphasised by to improve their growth prospects, by heavens, the my noble friend Lord Dobbs. Prime Minister should examine more closely the growth position of the UK economy in its double-dip recession As the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, reminded us at through his and his Chancellor’s actions since they the outset, the Governor of the Bank of England said have been in Government. only last week, the difficulties in the Euro area represent, So it is quite clear that we will look to others in “the biggest risk to recovery”, Europe to present some dimension of the solution to in the UK. So it is in the UK’s national interests that this position. Does it mean that the Germans will have we work to resolve these difficulties. to make additional sacrifices, which it is quite clear Resolution of the Euro area crisis requires three that their chancellor is not prepared at present? That things: resolving the ongoing uncertainty about Greece; will happen only if the consequences of doing nothing ring-fencing other vulnerable Euro area member states; are far worse. That is exactly how they are beginning and properly recapitalising Europe’s banks. We should to look. When this report was drafted only three recognise that some progress has been made. Greece months ago, this discussion could be conducted in was given a second programme of assistance and the fairly normal political language, but we are close to face value of its debt written down. As the committee talking the language of cataclysm at present—and of also notes, banks need to be sufficiently capitalised to course it changes the perspective of the Germans on withstand the instability. At home we have taken the this, not least because, after all, the Germans also need necessary actions and as a result all UK banks passed friends. In fact, they need the French, their direct allies the recent European Banking Authority capital adequacy 709 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[21 MAY 2012] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 710 tests. However, recent events remind us that significant that matters relating to the internal market must risks remain and the IMF rightly warns us all that the remain the preserve of all 27 EU member states. This global economy remains very fragile. That is why we is why last December the Prime Minister did not agreed to increase our contribution to the IMF by agree to measures the euro area wanted to pursue on £10 billion on condition that the IMF supports countries further fiscal integration being part of the EU treaties not currencies, that other IMF members also increase without adequate treaty-level safeguards for the single contributions, as they have done, and that the euro market. area increases its own firewall, as it, too, has done. I am sure that my noble friend Lady Williams of Noble Lords will be aware that the Government are Crosby will not be surprised—she may be a little taking forward legislation to ratify the EU treaty disappointed, but I am sure not too disappointed change that provides the legal basis for the European because we have discussed this before—that there is stability mechanism, and we will start to debate that on not a lot extra that I can add. My right honourable Wednesday. That means that the position will, I trust, friend the Chancellor deposited an answer with the be clear to my noble friend Lady Noakes and to others Treasury Committee, which is on its website, that goes in this House: the UK will not be making further as far as is appropriate and consistent with the need to contributions to eurozone bailout funds under the EU keep the details of negotiations confidential. However, budget. Ultimately, high deficit, low competitiveness I draw noble Lords’ attention, if they have not read it, countries need to confront their own problems head to that document. on. They need to continue taking difficult steps to cut We also agree wholeheartedly with the committee their spending, increase their revenues and undergo that we all need to address Europe’s low productivity structural reforms to boost competitiveness. I agree and lack of economic dynamism. The UK has been with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, leading that charge and has formed an alliance with 11 said. This is about economic sustainability, in his other EU leaders to set out an action plan for jobs and words—or fiscal sustainability, as I would put it. He growth in Europe, including completing the single did not find another word for growth so I will continue market in services and digital—a point to which my to call it growth. His analysis was very interesting, noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart drew attention. although, of course— He was right to do so. Lord Giddens: I prefer the term “wealth creation” The Prime Minister’s focus at the next informal to growth. You can find other words and you probably European Council this month, and at the June European need to break them down into various component Council, will be on ensuring that the focus in Europe parts to make sense of what people mean when they remains on promoting growth. The UK’s specific growth use “growth” in a generalised sense, which is not agenda includes the digital single market and the terribly useful. services directive, but also, importantly, completing all the open bilateral EU trade deals, which themselves Lord Sassoon: I am grateful to the noble Lord for could add ¤90 billion to the EU economy. A deal with those comments. I disagree with some of the fundamental the US would be bigger than all the others put together, aspects of his analysis of the Government’s prescription but they are each important. Of course, we want the for the UK economy but I think that goes a bit beyond Commission to commit to a new programme to reduce the narrow topic of today’s debate. the overall regulatory burden, following on from the current administrative burden programme that concludes As we have previously said, the euro area must also in 2012. The Government will be pursuing that agenda put in place governance arrangements to deliver the very vigorously with our European partners. greater collective support and responsibility that the remorseless logic of monetary union demands. We Some other aspects have been referred to in the want the fiscal compact to work in stabilising the euro debate. Again, the noble Lord, Lord Monks, referred and putting it on a firm foundation. We support the to the possibility of an increase in lending capacity by decision of euro area countries in the fiscal compact the European Investment Bank. That could indeed to commit to clear rules on fiscal discipline which the have a part to play, although I of course disagree with UK agrees are needed to make the single currency the noble Lord on his views on a European financial work effectively. transaction tax. That is not the way to go. Questions were raised about the ratification of the My noble friend Lord Maclennan of Rogart also fiscal compact. Although I will not comment on the referred to project bonds, which are another possible likelihood of that happening, I can update the House funding mechanism, which, if the funding comes out and report that so far Greece, Portugal and Slovenia of existing EU resources and is carefully designed to have ratified the compact. The compact will come into be consistent with the need to minimise EU expenditure, force once 12 euro area member states have deposited is certainly another option that merits exploration. their instruments of ratification. The ratification processes I should address one or two of the specific questions are significantly different in different member states, that were raised on Greece. I take as my starting point but that is where things stand. the fact that we must respect the Greek people’s choice As the committee report notes, we agree that eurobonds in their forthcoming elections. That point was expanded are another issue that deserves further analysis and on by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, but I certainly take serious consideration. I agree with the noble Lord, as a starting point the fact that we have to listen to Lord Monks, on that. Of course, any steps that are what they decide they want to do. The important thing taken towards closer integration must not be prejudicial for all of us is for Greece to find a way out of to the single market. We agree with the committee economic crisis in co-operation with its creditors and 711 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report[LORDS] Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report 712

[LORD SASSOON] Camp David. They are working together closely and for it to get back to sustainable growth and sustainable are looking forward to building on the close relationship wealth generation. This Government hope that Greece that exists. Therefore, based on the discussions in can agree a way forward on this as soon as possible. recent days, I think that the impact can only be positive. Notwithstanding the encouragement of the noble The last point I raise nervously but I do so for Lord, Lord Harrison, I am not going to speculate on completeness in tackling the issues that came up in the what may or may not happen in Greece or in any other debate. The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, said that EU member state. Various scenarios were painted by this was not the time to speculate about a possible some noble Lords—my noble friend Lord Marlesford, referendum—words which I am sure her noble friend the noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, and others— Lord Mandelson and the shadow Chancellor will very but I shall not comment on those. All I will say is that much take to heart if they listen to this debate or read the Government are undertaking extensive contingency it afterwards. However, I shall not go further than planning to deal with all potential outcomes of the that. euro crisis. As the House will recognise, given the In conclusion, these are indeed dangerous times for sensitivity of this work both to the markets and to the European economy. It is vital that euro area international relations we will not deviate from the Governments pull together to deliver a sustainable normal response, which is not to divulge specifics of resolution to the crisis, tackling their deficits, forging the Government’s plans. closer governance arrangements, and boosting My noble friend Lady Noakes specifically asked competitiveness and growth. On all fronts, the UK about the exposure of the UK economy to Greece. will work as a strong and positive partner with our The numbers relating to the relatively limited direct European neighbours to restore prosperity right across exposure of the UK banks and the UK economy the European Union. generally to Greece are published, but clearly there is a need for a convincing firewall, as we all know the step 8.29 pm change that there would be if contagion spread. Therefore, Lord Harrison: My Lords, it may have seemed at although I do not recognise the construction that the times that we were walking through a cloud of unknowing noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, put on Robert in the debate that we had on the euro-area crisis, but I Chote’s remarks, I think we all recognise the very thank all colleagues who have contributed so well and serious implications if these issues are not dealt with so widely to what I hope and believe will be a beneficial speedily and in all their dimensions. debate. If I were creating an image of cloud computing I was asked about one or two other issues. The and tried to find one word that might sum up the tenor noble Lord, Lord Harrison, asked about the impact of of the debate and my own hopes and aspirations, it the French elections and what changes there will be would be the reference to showing solidarity with with the new President. Of course, as he should have others suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. That been, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister is imperative and something that should help us to was very quick to congratulate Monsieur Hollande on find and forge solutions to this tricky business in the his election victory. France is an important partner of next few months and years. I hope in that solidarity the UK. We look forward to the close co-operation on that the United Kingdom will play its proper and vital foreign and defence policy, as well as on other areas, role. I thank noble Lords very much. continuing with the new Government. The Prime Minister Motion agreed. and the President had a warm exchange in their initial call and they subsequently met at the G20 meeting at House adjourned at 8.31 pm. WS 47 Written Statements[21 MAY 2012] Written Statements WS 48

Liberating the NHS: An Information Revolution— Written Statements A Consultation on Proposals, which sought views on proposals to transform the way information is collected, Monday 21 May 2012 analysed, controlled and used in NHS and social care across England and is underpinned by provisions in Elections: National Assembly for Wales the Health and Social Care Act 2012. I am grateful to the many people who provided Statement valuable input into this consultation and to the NHS Future Forum for the excellent work it undertook The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace throughout its listening exercise. Building on the wealth of Tankerness): My right honourable friend the Secretary of experience, viewpoints and insights gained through of State for Wales (Cheryl Gillan) has made the following the consultation and the NHS Future Forum’s work, Written Ministerial Statement. this document sets out the overall ambition and early I wish to inform the House that I am today publishing actions to transform our health and our care services a Green Paper on future electoral arrangements for to meet our needs and expectations, for now and the the National Assembly for Wales. future. The Government’s programme of political renewal For citizens, patients and users of care services, this impacts on all parts of the United Kingdom, and in strategy sets out how a new approach to information Wales has consequences for the Assembly. Currently and IT across health and care can lead to more joined-up, the constituencies used to elect Assembly Members safer, better care for all. The strategy spans information are the same as those used to elect Members of Parliament. for patients, service users, carers, clinicians and other But the move to a smaller House of Commons with care professionals, managers, commissioners, councillors, more equally sized constituencies breaks that link and researchers and many others. will, subject to parliamentary approval, result in a Unlike previous information strategies, this new reduction in the number of parliamentary constituencies information strategy does not reinvent large-scale in Wales from 40 to 30. information systems or set down detailed mechanisms In the Green Paper we look at the effects of these for delivery on a national template. Rather, it provides changes on the National Assembly for Wales, and a 10-year framework and a route map to lead a whether people would be better served by continuing transformation in the way information is collected and to have 40 Assembly constituencies but with modified used. It starts from the purposes for which information boundaries to make them more equal in size, or by is required, and the opportunities it offers for quality reinstating the link with parliamentary constituencies improvement. It aims to harness information and new by changing to an Assembly of 30 constituencies. In technologies to achieve higher quality care and improve each case the size of the 60-Member Assembly would outcomes for patients and service users. It enables not change, and so the number of regional Members local leadership and innovation alongside national would increase from 20 to 30 if the link with parliamentary standards. constituencies is re-established. There are three key themes in the strategy: Establishing five-year fixed-term Parliaments at Westminster also has implications for the Assembly, modern, convenient information access—new online and in the Green Paper we seek views on whether the services such as booking general practitioner National Assembly for Wales should have four or appointments, access to records online, a new integrated five-year terms. We are also seeking views on removing national website and 111 phone number; the prohibition on standing as a candidate in an modern information and technology for Assembly election in both a constituency and a region, professionals—improving safety and quality.Standards and whether Assembly Members should be prohibited ensuring systems can talk to each other, consistent from sitting in Parliament. use of the NHS “number”, work to allow new The consultation closes on 13 August, and the technologies in maternity services, piloting new barcode Government will consider carefully the responses we technology in care homes to improve medication receive before deciding how best to proceed. safety and encouraging “clinical portals” for The Green Paper will be laid today before both professionals to view records; and Houses, and is available on the Wales Office website at patient and citizen rights—information support as www.walesoffice.gov.uk. a service, and potential changes to the NHS constitution around right to feedback online, access Health and Social Care to records online and support for understanding information. Statement In summary, this strategy sets out the overall ambition The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department and the early actions that will enable information to of Health (Earl Howe): My right honourable friend the transform our health and our care services to meet our Secretary of State for Health (Andrew Lansley) has needs and expectations, for now and the future. made the following Written Ministerial Statement. The Power of Information: Putting All of Us in Today I am publishing The Power of Information: Control of the Health and Care Information We Need Putting All of Us in Control of the Health and Care has been placed in the Library. Copies are available to Information We Need. This information strategy for honourable Members from the Vote Office and to health and social care in England is our response to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. WS 49 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 50

Health: Tuberculosis Screening The current UK pre-migration TB screening programme covers 15 countries considered high incidence for TB Statement by the World Health Organisation, and has demonstrated clear potential to detect active TB and achieve savings The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): for the NHS. Wetherefore intend to expand this programme My honourable friend the Minister of State for to those visa applicants applying to stay in the UK for Immigration (Damian Green) has today made the longer than six months from the over 80 countries with following Written Ministerial Statement. a high incidence of TB, beginning the rollout this summer (list attached). On-entry X-ray checks at Heathrow I wish to inform the House of the outcome of a and Gatwick airports will be phased out. review that has been conducted by the UK Border Agency with support from the Department of Health The complex nature of the disease means that TB and the Health Protection Agency (HPA) of our screening of migrants as part of immigration clearance arrangements for screening migrants from high-incidence can only make a limited contribution to TB control in countries for active pulmonary tuberculosis (TB), and the UK. One-third of the world’s population is estimated of our intention to make changes to long-standing to have latent TB. A minority will develop the disease policy in this area both to better protect UK public in its active form at some point in their lives, but it is health and use public resources more effectively. currently impossible to establish through screening if this is likely to occur in any individual case. Most TB is a global public health issue. While TB rates in foreign-born TB patients only develop the disease in its this country are stable, HPA data indicate higher rates active form years after arrival in the UK. We will of infection concentrated in particular metropolitan therefore explore ways to improve the sharing of information areas, and overall the UK’s TB rate compares unfavourably between the UK Border Agency and the HPA about with other developed nations. Much of the UK’s TB individuals coming to live in the UK for more than six burden is attributable to international migration. Around months from high-incidence countries. This will complement three-quarters of TB cases in the UK occur in those the systems that are already in place at a local level for born outside of the UK, and screening of migrants connecting individuals with healthcare services. from high-incidence countries for active TB forms part of the range of measures to prevent and control Tuberculosis high-incidence countries TB in the UK. The existing policy is that people subject to immigration control arriving in the United Afghanistan Kingdom from high-incidence TB countries and intending Angola to stay for over six months are screened at Heathrow Bhutan and Gatwick airports for the active disease. This screening Bolivia entails an examination of arriving passengers through Botswana the use of X-rays. Burma Burundi The Government have decided that this policy should Cameroon now be changed on medical and financial grounds. Cape Verdi The weight of medical opinion is that screening for TB Central African Rep in this manner can no longer be considered to make Chad any real contribution to the detection and management China of the disease. X-rays alone cannot provide a definite China, Hong Kong SAR diagnosis, which requires laboratory testing that cannot China, Macau be performed in the airport environment. Current Congo screening arrangements at our airports detect very few active cases. Changes in the travel industry over the Congo Dem Rep Zaire past few decades now means that an increased number Djibouti of people arrive at other UK ports where screening Ecuador facilities are not available. Equatorial Guinea Ethiopia The UK Border Agency has been piloting the pre- Gabon migration screening of persons applying for long-term Gambia visas and entry clearance from high-incidence TB Guinea countries on a model routinely employed by the USA, Guinea-Bissau Australia and Canada. Screening overseas in advance Guyana of the visa application process enables the use of Haiti laboratory tests where X-rays or clinical judgment India suggests the possible presence of TB. It also increases Indonesia the possibility of detecting and intercepting drug and Kazakhstan multi-drug-resistant forms of the disease. Where Kiribati individuals are found to have active pulmonary TB, Korea Dem People they must successfully undergo treatment before their Korea Rep of application to come to the UK can be considered. This Kyrgyzstan approach is already sanctioned by existing powers in Lesotho the Immigration Rules. The experience of our international partners is that pre-migration screening can assist in Liberia reducing the rate of imported infection. Madagascar WS 51 Written Statements[21 MAY 2012] Written Statements WS 52

Tuberculosis high-incidence countries Today I have laid amending regulations which make provision for the repayment of student loans. Malawi The new student loan repayment system is designed Malaysia to be sustainable, affordable and progressive. Repayments Mali will be income-contingent, ensuring that repayments Mauritania match ability to pay. By raising the repayment threshold Micronesia to £21,000 and introducing a progressive rate of interest, Moldova there will be a greater protection to the lowest-paid Mongolia graduates. After 30 years outstanding balances will be Morocco written off. Mozambique Namibia The changes to the repayment system to be Nepal implemented by these amending regulations will apply Nigeria to new students who commence their studies in September Papua New Guinea 2012 or later. Certain students transferring courses or Peru taking higher level courses starting after September Philippines 2012, but immediately after completing a previous Russian Fed higher education qualification, will remain under the Rwanda existing arrangements. Sao Tome & Prince The main changes are as follows: Senegal Real and variable interest rates on student loans for Sierra Leone students starting courses on or after 1 September 2012 Solomon Islands are to be introduced. New students starting a higher South Africa education course from September 2012 onwards will Suriname be charged interest at RPI (retail prices index) plus 3% Swaziland while studying. This rate will apply until the borrower Tajikistan is liable to make repayments. Once a borrower has Timorleste reached their repayment due date, the rate of interest Tuvalu charged will depend upon the borrower’s income. Uganda Borrowers earning £21,000 or less will be charged a Ukraine rate equivalent to RPI. Interest will then be charged Uzbekistan on a sliding scale up to £41,000 where the interest rate Vietnam will be RPI plus 3%. Zambia Zimbabwe The repayment threshold will be £21,000. Setting the contribution at £21,000 is a core part of making the system more progressive. It will mean that low-earning Countries currently covered by pre-screening pilot graduates are not required to make payments and Bangladesh those who earn above £21,000 will contribute less each Burkina Faso month than borrowers would under the current system. Cambodia Raising the threshold for new graduates is part of the Cote D’Ivoire overall package of reforms to make the system more progressive and protect those who do not go on to Eritrea enjoy high earnings—while asking those that do to Ghana contribute more. Kenya Laos After April 2016, those earning above the threshold Niger who are due to repay will repay 9% of their income Pakistan above £21,000. Full-time students will be due to repay Somalia from the 6 April after they complete or leave their Sudan course. Part-time students will be due to start repaying Tanzania on the 6 April which falls after the fourth anniversary Thailand of the start date of the course or the 6 April which Togo falls after the student leaves their course—whichever is sooner. Write-off of loan—the outstanding balance of a Higher Education: Student Loans loan will be cancelled 30 years after the repayment due Statement date. The loan will also be cancelled if the borrower dies or the borrower receives a disability-related benefit and, because of the disability, is permanently unfit for work. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): Credit balance-interest rate—we will implement new My right honourable friend the Minister of State for interest rate provisions for both new and existing Universities and Science (David Willetts) has today borrowers who have a student loan balance in credit made the following Statement. due to over-repayment. This change will apply from WS 53 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 54

6 April 2016, and will mean that the Student Loans statements of intent covering renewable energy; the Company will not, after a period of 60 days’ notice to central and local shares of retained business rates; the borrower, apply interest to credit balances. and the safety net and levy; a technical paper setting out proposals on pooling Local Government Finance Bill arrangements for local authorities; and an analytical paper: The Economic Benefits of Statement Local Business Rates Retention. Localising support for council tax—to strengthen The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department the incentive for councils to help their residents get for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): back into employment. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Eric Pickles) statements of intent setting out the detail of policy made the following Written Ministerial Statement on to be covered in forthcoming regulations on the 17 May 2012. prescribed requirements for schemes—including those for pensioners and the default scheme; transitional Today, I am publishing a series of documents which arrangements; council tax base adjustments and underpin the policy behind the Local Government risk sharing of financial pressures; and the procedure Finance Bill. for making local schemes; and The current flawed system of government handouts a consultation on the funding of localised support to local authorities encourages a begging-bowl mentality, for council tax. with each council vying to be more deprived than its neighbour. Our reforms will allow councils to stand These will provide the details local authorities need tall, and reward them for supporting local jobs and to bring forward their own proposals for local schemes. local firms. All councils, including the least prosperous I will also shortly be publishing guidance to help local areas, will have the opportunity to gain under this authorities take account of work incentives and the system. needs of vulnerable people. Economic analysis by my department, which I am placing in the Library of the House today, shows that these new laws and reforms deliver an opportunity for Terrorism: 7 July Inquest a £10 billion boost to the wider economy, generating Statement more business-rate revenues for councils. The Local Government Finance Bill will enable local authorities across England to keep a share of the The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): business rates they collect, giving them a strong financial My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for incentive to promote local economic growth and directly the Home Department (Theresa May) has today made linking a council’s financial revenue to the decisions the following Written Ministerial Statement. they take to back local firms and local jobs. The bigger On 19 July 2011 the Government provided notification pot will mean there is more money to support front-line of the publication of their response to the services, help pay off the deficit and still protect vulnerable recommendations contained in the coroner’s inquests communities. report on the London bombings of 7 July 2005. In In addition, the Bill gives local authorities autonomy that document, the Government committed to review in helping provide for the most vulnerable in their progress against the commitments they made by the areas through designing local schemes of support for end of March 2012. council tax. This review of progress is now complete and is Business-rate growth will be shared evenly between published today on the Home Office website. A copy central and local government. The “local share” will of the report will be placed in the Libraries of both be retained in full by councils and will be set at 50% Houses. for the seven-year period. The full “central share” will always be returned in grants to local government. The Bill will support the success of the 24 confirmed Transport: MoT Scheme enterprise zones across the country by enabling the uplift in business rates on those sites to be retained Statement locally and invested back into growth projects across the local enterprise partnership area. Earl Attlee: My honourable friend the Parliamentary In addition councils will get to keep 100% of the Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning) business rates from new renewable energy projects. has made the following Ministerial Statement. These will not count against the local/central shares. A Today I am announcing the Government’s plan to centrally run safety net will provide support should a exempt all vehicles of historic interest (vehicles council’s income drop below a set baseline, protecting manufactured prior to 1 January 1960) in Great Britain areas which suffer a downturn. (GB) from statutory MoT test, as allowed under Article The technical documents being published today 4(2) of the EU directive 2009/40/EC. I am also publishing cover: the outcome of the consultation (with government Business rates retention—to strengthen the incentive response) on our proposal to exempt historic vehicles for councils to support local firms and local jobs from the MoT test which closed on 26 January 2012. WS 55 Written Statements[21 MAY 2012] Written Statements WS 56

The EU directive of the European Parliament and Following consultation, the Government have concluded of the Council, chapter II, “Exceptions”, Article 4, that we should proceed with exempting all pre-1960 states: manufactured vehicles from the MoT test. The Government believe that the exemption will reduce regulatory burden “Member states may, after consulting the Commission, exclude on owners of historic vehicles, and meet their “reducing from the scope of this directive, or subject to special provisions, regulation”agenda and the desire to remove unnecessary certain vehicles operated or used in exceptional conditions and burdens. It will also bring the age of vehicles requiring vehicles which are never, or hardly ever, used on public highways, the statutory MoT test in line with the Goods Vehicles including vehicles of historic interest which were manufactured (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988, which already before 1 January 1960 or which are temporarily withdrawn from circulation. Member states may, after consulting the Commission, exempt unladen pre-1960 manufactured heavy goods set their own testing standards for vehicles considered to be of vehicles from the roadworthiness test. Owners of pre-1960 historic interest”. manufactured vehicles will still retain the option to do voluntary MoT tests on their vehicles. While the pre-1960 manufactured vehicles made up The outcome of consultation with government response 0.6% of the 35.2 million licensed vehicles in GB, they can be found on the department’s website. were involved in just 0.03% of road casualties and An amendment will be made to Regulation 6 of the accidents. Two-thirds of them are driven under 500 miles Motor Vehicles (Tests) Regulations 1981 to enable the a year and their initial MoT test failure rate (10%) is MoT exemption. It is my intention that the changes only a third of that of post-1960 manufactured vehicles. come into force by 18 November 2012.

WA 21 Written Answers[21 MAY 2012] Written Answers WA 22 Written Answers Elections: Police and Crime Commissioners Monday 21 May 2012 Question Asked by Lord Rennard Agriculture: Barley and Wheat To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Question estimated cost of conducting elections for police and crime commissioners due in November 2012; Asked by Lord Bilimoria and what estimates they have made of the likely turnout. [HL146] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what impact they expect the drought to have on barley and wheat output in the United Kingdom. [HL133] The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): The estimated cost of police and crime commissioner elections in 2012 is £75 million. Due to the unprecedented The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department nature of these elections we are unable to make estimates for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor of the likely turnout. of Holbeach): It is too early to determine what impact the drought may have on barley and wheat yields in the UK. The majority of the crops are well established Embryology with few serious or widespread problems identified. Questions The recent rainfall has been beneficial and has provided sufficient moisture for nutrient uptake and crop growth, Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool but it could increase the risk of certain diseases. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Much of the impact will depend on the weather the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 10 January conditions between now and harvest. However, farmers (WA 22), whether they consider that patients were are experienced at dealing with changes in weather in a position to provide informed consent regarding and their impacts on the natural environment, and will the use of a germinal vesicle in research project continue to adapt to mitigate these as far as possible. R0122 when the patient information and consent forms for this project referred only to the use of embryos in research, not oocytes, and the latest Charity Emblems progress report for research licence R0122 received Question by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority in April 2004 stated that embryos were not created Asked by Lord Rogan for research in this project. [HL55] To ask Her Majesty’s Government which, if any, To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to constabularies and police authorities in the United the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 3 October Kingdom are instructing officers not to wear poppies 2011 (WA 105–6), what were the findings of the or charity wristbands, including those for Help for Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority’s Heroes. [HL48] inspection of the record sheets dated 23 September 2004 for eggs and embryos contributed to research at Centre 0017; how it was confirmed whether the The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): second patient listed on those record sheets had This information is not held centrally. declined the use of their eggs or embryos in projects covered by research licences R0122 and R0145; and what role was played by Dr Victoria Lamb in Drugs: Thalidomide authorising the use of a germinal vesicle from this patient in research project R0122 on 27 September Question 2004. [HL56] Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they are of Health (Earl Howe): As I advised the noble Lord in marking the 50th anniversary of the extent of the my Written Answer of 28 November 2011 (Official effect of the use of Thalidomide by pregnant women Report, col. WA 10), the Human Fertilisation and becoming clear; and what recent contacts they have Embryology Authority (HFEA) has no statutory had with the families of those affected. [HL122] obligation to regulate the use of eggs in research that does not involve the creation of embryos. The HFEA The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department has advised that the progress report for research licence of Health (Earl Howe): The Government expect to R0122, referred to by the noble Lord, documents the receive from the Thalidomide Trust the evaluation of use of embryos and the proposed use of eggs. the second year of the three-year pilot study funded The HFEA has advised that it has nothing further by a departmental grant shortly, and will look to meet to add to the information given in my Written Answer with the National Advisory Council to the Thalidomide of 3 October 2011 (Official Report, col. WA 105). The Trust to discuss that report further. HFEA has also advised that it does not hold information WA 23 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 24 about the specific roles of individual members of staff and what research has been done on forecasting at research centres in relation to research carried out levels of renewable obligation support in such on specific days. circumstances. [HL21] Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the linkage between the level of renewable obligation To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to support for offshore and onshore windfarm the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 22 November developments and the assured operating life of 2011 (WA 222), whether the Human Fertilisation windfarm equipment. [HL22] and Embryology Authority’s policy of not commenting on its relationship with any person responsible or nominal licensee would facilitate appropriate review The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of actions taken by any authority inspector who of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): In was previously a nominal licensee. [HL57] setting the level of the renewables obligation (RO) support for different technologies, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change is required to Earl Howe: The Human Fertilisation and Embryology have regard to a number of factors according to the Authority has advised that it has nothing to add to the Electricity Act 1989, as amended by the Energy Act information given in my Written Answer of 22 November 2008. 2011 (Official Report, col. WA 222). These factors include the costs and incomes of the renewable developments. In assessing what RO support is required for investments to go ahead, the costs and Energy: Green Deal incomes of the developments are assessed over the full Question operating lifetime of the generating assets. Asked by Lord Whitty RO support for new onshore and offshore wind generating capacity is limited to 20 years (subject to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the the 2037 end date of the RO). No additional RO latest developments on the establishment of the support is currently available for the repowering of oversight body for the Green Deal; when it will be wind turbines at the end of their working life. in place; and what its functions will be. [HL39] Gangmasters The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): The Question Green Deal Registration and Oversight Body will Asked by Lord Whitty perform a number of functions aimed at providing effective administration and oversight of the Green To ask Her Majesty’s Government on what basis Deal. Functions will include: they are reducing the resources of the Gangmasters creating a register of all authorised Green Deal Licensing Authority and considering “lighter touch advisors, installers and providers; regulation” in respect of gangmaster regulation maintaining the Green Deal code of practice and and enforcement. [HL35] controlling the use of the quality mark; ongoing monitoring of Green Deal participants The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department against the code of practice; for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor production of an annual Green Deal report; and of Holbeach): The Government are looking at how to target the Gangmasters Licensing Authority’s (GLA) gathering evidence of non-compliance and referring resources more effectively to ensure protection of the participants to the ombudsman or my right honourable most vulnerable workers while reducing burdens on friend the Secretary of State where appropriate and gangmasters who comply with the law. A range of imposing sanctions when directed. options for simplifying the operation of the GLA are A procurement process is currently under way and under consideration as part of the Government’s Red we expect to finalise the contract in June 2012 with the Tape Challenge and final proposals will be announced registers open in early August. in due course.

Energy: Wind Farms Health: Mesothelioma Questions Question Asked by Lord Donoughue Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what the Written Answer by Lord De Mauley on 23 April consideration they have given to the membership of (WA 318), to what extent the level of renewable the group which will review the payment of success obligation support for offshore and onshore windfarm fees to lawyers involved in cases of mesothelioma; developments is reduced at the end of the 23- and whether any members of mesothelioma victims’ 24-year assured life of equipment where the revenue- organisations will be included; whether witnesses raising working life of such equipment is extended; will be called to give evidence; what is the anticipated WA 25 Written Answers[21 MAY 2012] Written Answers WA 26

timetable for its deliberations; to whom it will report; The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel): The and whether they will provide time in both Houses Parliamentary Recording Unit is currently working for its findings to be discussed. [HL59] with its video contractor on the introduction of live streaming to mobile devices, which will be available from October 2012. It is also developing options to The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord extend access to archive video covering the past three McNally): The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment years of House of Lords proceedings. Separate of Offenders Act 2012 received Royal Assent on 1 May investigations are under way into options for the 2012. The Government have already announced that digitisation of audio and video tapes dating back to the provisions in Part 2 relating to civil litigation the 1970s, and for enabling this material to be delivered funding and costs will come into force in April 2013. alongside current video output. However, the provisions in relation to Sections 44 and 46 (recoverable success fees and insurance premiums) will not come into effect in relation to mesothelioma Human Rights claims until a review has been undertaken and published in accordance with Section 48. The review is not due Question to begin for some time. We will consider how best to Asked by Lord Laird conduct it in due course, bearing in mind the factors referred to by the noble Lord. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Shutt of Greetland on 1May(WA 454), whether they have received Health: Podiatry applications for compensation in relation to other deaths in Northern Ireland, the rest of the United Questions Kingdom or elsewhere that may have violated Article 2 Asked by Lord Harrison of the European Convention on Human Rights since the cases of Jordan, McKerr, Kelly and Others, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and Shanaghan in 2001; and, if so, in relation to will review the provision of podiatry services within which deaths; and what payments have been made. the National Health Service, in the light of current [HL67] amputation rates. [HL4] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord will review the evidence regarding any link between McNally): The Government do not collect information the variation in amputation rates for those suffering centrally about applications for compensation in relation from diabetes and the variation in staffing rates for to deaths in Northern Ireland, the rest of the United National Health Service-employed podiatrists. Kingdom or elsewhere that may have violated Article [HL5] 2 of the European Convention on Human Rights and it would not be possible to assemble a complete list of such cases, which could have been made to domestic The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department courts or to the European Court of Human Rights of Health (Earl Howe): While there are currently no and would include successful, unsuccessful and pending plans to review the provision of podiatry services cases. The information requested is therefore not available centrally, a companion document to the outcomes strategy for long-term conditions will look at the provision of services for people with diabetes. Immigration: Detention Centres Foot complications of diabetes are preventable, and Question if identified early enough can be treated effectively. Reducing the number of amputations due to diabetes Asked by The Earl of Sandwich relies on good self-management of diabetes and good services to support people with diabetes. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what improvements have been made at Haslar Immigration The National Diabetes Audit looked at the structure Removal Centre in response to recommendations of services locally and National Health Service trusts, following the HM Inspectorate of Prisons inspection especially those with high amputation rates, should in May 2011. [HL104] take action to view their own data and act on the results. The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): The Chief Inspector of Prisons’report of an unannounced inspection of Haslar Immigration Removal Centre Houses of Parliament: Mobile Devices was published in July 2011. Question The report contained a total of 40 recommendations; Asked by Lord Tyler two main recommendations and 38 others. Twenty-seven recommendations were accepted and incorporated into To ask the Chairman of Committees what progress a service improvement plan for the centre, a copy of has been made since 2009–10 in delivering archived which is available in the House Library. Action to video coverage of parliamentary proceedings to implement all but seven of the recommendations has mobile devices. [HL168] been completed. WA 27 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 28

The main recommendations were in regard to lengthy the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) released detention when documentation could not be easily a statement strongly condemning the Israeli Government’s obtained, and paid work to occupy detainees. decision to legalise these three outposts in the West The UK has established redocumentation arrangements Bank. The Foreign Secretary made it clear that this with a number of countries, aiding our ability to decision set a dangerous precedent for future outposts remove detainees more quickly.In addition, improvements and risked sending the message that Israel was not have been made to the detention review process enabling serious about its commitment to the two-state solution. officers, particularly those dealing with foreign national He called on Israel to rescind this decision. offenders, to more quickly identify documentation Our ambassador in Tel Aviv has also raised our issues. The UK Border Agency continues to work with concerns about this issue with Israeli officials. the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to engage with We have regular discussions with European partners embassies to ensure that the documentation process with regards to the issues of Israeli settlements and for the removal of their nationals is efficient. outposts in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. On 14 May, the European Union Foreign Affairs Council issued conclusions that expressed concern at the recent Israel decision of the Government of Israel regarding the Questions status of some outposts. Asked by The Lord Bishop of Exeter Asked by The Lord Bishop of Exeter To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government what have provided or plan to provide any financial representations they have made or intend to make assistance or practical support to organisations and to the Government of Israel regarding the decision bodies tackling discrimination and inequality between to classify as formal settlements the outposts of Jews and Arabs in Israel. [HL29] Bruchin, Rechanim and Sansana. [HL32]

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Lord Howell of Guildford: We have made it consistently Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government clear that Israel should be removing—not legalising— condemn all instances of inequality and discrimination illegal outposts, in line with its road map commitments. against individuals and groups because of their faith, On 24 April, the Secretary of State for Foreign and ethnicity or nationality. Our embassy in Tel Aviv and Commonwealth Affairs, my right honourable friend consulate-general in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, monitor the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) released and raise concerns over human rights with host a statement strongly condemning the Israeli Government’s governments, including discrimination and freedom decision to legalise these three outposts in the West of religion or belief when appropriate. Bank. The Foreign Secretary made it clear that this When possible our embassies and high commissions decision set a dangerous precedent for future outposts take action on individual cases where persecution or and risked sending the message that Israel was not discrimination has occurred and lobby for changes in serious about its commitment to the two-state solution. discriminatory practices and laws. We continue to He called on Israel to rescind this decision. raise freedom of religion or belief in bilateral and Our ambassador in Tel Aviv has also raised our European Union human rights dialogues and we also concerns about this issue with Israeli officials. work in the United Nations and with other international organisations to uphold universal standards. We have regular discussions with European partners with regards to the issues of Israeli settlements and We have also supported projects aimed at tackling outposts in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. On discrimination between Jews and Arabs in Israel. In 14 May, the European Union Foreign Affairs Council 2011 the UK sponsored a £40,000 project for Israeli issued conclusions that expressed concern at the recent and Palestinian religious leaders to join a multi-sector decision of the Government of Israel regarding the leaders network that aims to advance peace in the status of some outposts. region. Asked by The Lord Bishop of Exeter Asked by The Lord Bishop of Exeter To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they they have had or intend to have with their European have made an assessment of how the decision by Union partners regarding the government of Israel’s the Government of Israel to classify as formal decision to classify as formal settlements the outposts settlements the outposts of Bruchin, Rechanim and of Bruchin, Rechanim and Sansana. [HL33] Sansana might impact on the viability of a two-state solution and the prospects for negotiating such a solution. [HL31] Lord Howell of Guildford: We have made it consistently clear that Israel should be removing, not legalising, Lord Howell of Guildford: We have made it consistently illegal outposts in line with its Roadmap commitments. clear that Israel should be removing, not legalising, On 24 April, the Secretary of State for Foreign and illegal outposts, in line with its road map commitments. Commonwealth Affairs, my right honourable friend On 24 April, the Secretary of State for Foreign and the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) released Commonwealth Affairs, my right honourable friend a statement strongly condemning the Israeli Government’s WA 29 Written Answers[21 MAY 2012] Written Answers WA 30 decision to legalise these three outposts in the West Pensions Bank. The Foreign Secretary made it clear that this decision set a dangerous precedent for future outposts Question and risked sending the message that Israel was not Asked by Lord Laird serious about its commitment to the two-state solution. He called on Israel to rescind this decision. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Our ambassador in Tel Aviv has also raised our the Written Answer by Lord Sassoon on 30 April concerns about this issue with Israeli officials. (WA 419), whether, in later negotiations with trades We have regular discussions with European partners unions about the revaluation of the NHS Pension with regards to the issues of Israeli settlements and Scheme and Teachers Pension Scheme and the outposts in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. On constraint within the overall cost limits set out in 14 May, the European Union Foreign Affairs Council Cm 8214, they will take account of the use of the issued conclusions that expressed concern at the recent consumer prices index (CPI) plus 1.5% and plus decision of the Government of Israel regarding the 1.6% respectively if the difference between the CPI status of some outposts. and the retail prices index is less than 1.5% and 1.6% and when there is no inflationary rise in the CPI. [HL66]

Jordan and Egypt The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Question Sassoon): Discussions with trades unions for the NHS Pension Scheme and Teachers Pension Scheme have Asked by Lord Hylton concluded and proposed final agreements can be found on departmental websites. The majority of unions To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light have agreed to take these proposed final agreements to of the connection between the Arab Spring and their executives as the outcome of negotiations and economic conditions, whether they have any the Government will introduce legislation in this Session. programmes aimed at increasing employment in The revaluations in the NHS Pension Scheme and information and other high-technology developments Teachers Pension Scheme are linked only to the consumer in Jordan and Egypt, such as Oasis 500. [HL62] prices index. The retail prices index is not being used for these purposes. Full details of the how the agreed revaluation rates will apply in practice, including where The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth there is no inflationary rise in the consumer prices Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): In 2011-12, the index, will be set out in due course in detailed proposals Arab Partnership Participation Fund (APPF) funded for the operation of the individual schemes and will be four projects in Jordan to support private sector reflected in legislation. development, specifically entrepreneurship, including in the IT sector. These included two projects by Oasis 500 to train IT entrepreneurs in Amman and Irbid, and Pigs provide them with opportunities to access finance. Through these projects, Oasis 500 trained 196 Question entrepreneurs in Amman, and invested in nine of them. In Irbid, 27 entrepreneurs received training and Asked by The Countess of Mar 20 completed the full course. Of the 14 Oasis To ask Her Majesty’s Government what records 500 companies which pitched at angel investor events, are held relating to the incidence of (1) breeding 11 secured follow-on funding amounting to nearly sow deaths, (2) piglet stillbirths, (3) piglet malformations $6 million. Oasis 500 also developed a mentor network in live births, and (4) the use of antibiotics and of over 240 mentors. The APPF also supported projects other medications, in the United Kingdom pig farming by the Mowgli Foundation to support Jordanian industry. [HL72] entrepreneurs through mentoring; and a partnership between a local non-governmental organisation, Injaz, and Mosaic, to introduce an online tool to strengthen The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department business skills and promote entrepreneurship in Jordanian for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Taylor schools. of Holbeach): The Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency (AHVLA), which conducts animal We did not fund any projects in this area in Egypt. health surveillance on Defra’s behalf, does not receive The Arab Partnership Economic Facility is working any routine data concerning breeding sow deaths, with the international financial institutions to support piglet stillbirths or piglet malformations in live births. job creation in the Middle East and north Africa However, pig producers and their private veterinary region across a range of sectors. In Egypt and Jordan surgeons in England and Wales may choose to bring this includes support for a new World Bank Group specific incidents to the attention of AHVLA, for facility to increase access to enterprise finance, and for example, for laboratory investigation into potential the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development’s causes. Data from these voluntary submissions are technical assistance for private sector development. recorded by AHVLA and monitored for any unexplained A full list of all APPF funded projects is available increase. Information is released through a quarterly at: www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/mena/uk-arab- report, accessible via AHVLA’s website (eg http:// partnership/. vla.defra.gov.uk/reports/docs/ rep_survrep_qtlyp0311.pdf). WA 31 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 32

In Scotland, the Scottish Agricultural College provides The Government will back the service to deliver the animal health surveillance and in Northern Ireland changes needed to make more rapid progress against this is provided by the AgriFood and BioSciences these priorities. Institute. Asked by Lord Ouseley There is a legal requirement under the Welfare of Farmed Animals Regulations (in England, Scotland To ask Her Majesty’s Government what and Wales) and under cross-compliance for farmers to requirements will be imposed on police and crime inspect their pigs at least once every day to check that commissioners to eradicate racism from all aspects they are in a state of well-being. Records must be kept of the services for which they are responsible, and on the number of mortalities on each inspection and how they will be accountable for this. [HL11] these records must be retained by the farmer for at least three years. AHVLA conducts audits in England, Lord Henley: Police and crime commissioners (PCCs) Scotland and Wales to check that the records are being will be subject to the public sector equality duty under maintained but the recorded data remain solely with Section 149 of the Equality Act 2010, which will the farmer, not AHVLA. require them to have due regard, in exercising their Veterinary surgeons are required to maintain records functions, to the need to eliminate discrimination, for five years of the medicines they have supplied to advance equality of opportunity and foster good relations the animals under their care. Veterinary pharmacists between races. PCCs will also be required, under and agricultural merchants must also maintain similar Section 1(8)(g) of the Police Reform and Social records for the categories of medicines they are permitted Responsibility Act 2011, to hold the chief constable to to prescribe, which do not include antibiotics. Similarly account, in particular, for the exercise of the chief farmers are required to maintain records of all veterinary constable’s duties relating to equality and diversity. medicines used in their animals. However, in the UK This will include the public sector equality duty mentioned these data are not collected and held by the Government. above, which applies to chief constables as well as to Nevertheless, the consumption of veterinary antibiotics PCCs. PCCs will be directly accountable to their electorate is reported by the amount of active ingredient sold by for the decisions they take. Their compliance with the veterinary medicinal product manufacturer for these equalities obligations will also be scrutinised by each of the classes of antibiotic and by animal group a police and crime panel containing members of the listed in the Marketing Authorisation of the veterinary local authorities in the police area and co-opted medicinal product. These data are published retrospectively independent members. on an annual basis at: http://www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/ public/antimicrobial_pubs.aspx. Questions from the Media Police: Racism Questions Questions Asked by Lord Laird Asked by Lord Ouseley To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Shutt of Greetland on To ask Her Majesty’s Government how their 19 March (WA 146), whether there is any cross- race integration policies, reflected in the Equality departmental limit on the number of questions that Strategy, the Social Mobility Strategy and Creating members of the media may ask the Government the conditions for integration, are contributing to each week. [HL23] the elimination of racism and the fair treatment of black and minority ethnic people by the police Lord Wallace of Saltaire: No cross-departmental service in England and Wales, in particular by the limit applies to the number of questions that members Metropolitan Police Service. [HL10] of the media may ask the Government each week. Individual departments are responsible for answering The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley): questions from the media addressed to them. Equality and diversity are particularly important for the police service in England and Wales in the context Asked by Lord Laird of policing our diverse communities. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they The Government have set out three priority areas intend to operate a policy of refusing to answer for the service to make improvements in equality and some media questions on the grounds of diversity: disproportionate cost. [HL28] the police workforce—the workforce needs to be more representative of the communities it serves, Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Individual departments especially at more senior ranks; are responsible for answering questions from the media communities—local democratic accountability will addressed to them. place new demands on the service to maintain Where a query is received in the form of a Freedom good relationships with communities; and, of Information request, Section 12 of the Freedom of crime—improving service to the public will mean Information Act allows a department to refuse to deal forces should focus on crimes that have a with a request where it is estimated that it would disproportionate impact on minority communities. exceed the appropriate cost limit. WA 33 Written Answers[21 MAY 2012] Written Answers WA 34

Schools: Free Meals The official estimates of participation in education by 16 and 17 year-olds by institution type can be Question found in table B7 of the Statistical First Release Asked by Baroness Benjamin DfE: Participation in Education, Training and Employment by 16-18 Year Olds in England: http:// To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s001011/ and what proportion of 16- and 17-year olds in (1) index.shtml. sixth forms and (2) further education colleges, received free school meals in the most recent five years for Sudan which figures are available. [HL17] Question Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The information requested To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment is shown in the table below. As 16 and 17 year-olds they have made of whether a campaign of genocide who study in sixth-form colleges and further education is being conducted by the government of Sudan colleges are not eligible for free school meals the tables against the people of South Kordofan; and what is are based on students’ free school meal status at age 15 their latest estimate of fatalities, injuries, displaced which is available only for those young people who people, and health and food issues arising out of were in a state school. The answer includes both the bombings there. [HL60] full-time and part-time students but excludes students whose FSM status at age 15 is unknown. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): A lack of independent Percentage of 16 and 17 year-old students attending school sixth-forms known to access makes it difficult to assess accurately the situation be eligible for free school meals at age 15 in Southern Kordofan, but it is clear that the ongoing Number of Percentage of conflict, and in particular the completely unacceptable students known students known to be eligible for to be eligible for use of aerial bombardments by the Sudanese armed Free School Number of Free School forces, is disproportionately affecting civilians, and Meals at age 15 students* Meals that these tactics may constitute war crimes. We are 16-17 in 2006-07 25,700 352,700 7.3 also concerned with the forecast of severe food shortages 16-17 in 2007-08 26,900 364,000 7.4 in the coming months. The United Nations Office for 16-17 in 2008-09 27,600 375,400 7.4 the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs estimates 16-17 in 2009-10 29,800 390,800 7.6 that over half a million people are now displaced or 16-17 in 2010-11 31,900 396,500 8.0 severely affected from both Southern Kordofan and Blue Nile states. We continue to press all parties to * Only includes those with known FSM status at age 15 commit to a ceasefire that will allow humanitarian Source: DfE Matched Administrative Data agencies access as soon as possible, and to establish a political process to resolve the conflicts as demanded Percentage of 16 and 17 year-old students attending sixth-form colleges known to in Security Council Resolution 2046. be eligible for free school meals at age 15 Number of Percentage of students known students known Sudan and South Sudan to be eligible for to be eligible for Question Free School Number of Free School Meals at age 15 students* Meals Asked by The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells 16-17 in 2006-07 11,900 119,200 10.0 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures 16-17 in 2007-08 11,900 122,800 9.7 they are taking to assist in arresting the violence 16-17 in 2008-09 12,100 127,500 9.5 between Sudan and South Sudan. [HL113] 16-17 in 2009-10 12,800 131,500 9.7 16-17 in 2010-11 13,800 132,900 10.4 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth * Only includes those with known FSM status at age 15 Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We were deeply concerned at the recent cross-border actions between Source: DfE Matched Administrative Data both Sudan and South Sudan. We continue to encourage both Governments to fully comply with the road map Percentage of 16 and 17 year-old students attending further education colleges that the African Union Peace and Security Council set known to be eligible for free school meals at age 15 out for restoring peace between Sudan and South Number of Percentage of students known students known Sudan in its communiqué of 24 April backed by the to be eligible for to be eligible for United Nations Security Council Resolution (2046) of Free School Number of Free School 2 May 2012. Meals at age 15 students* Meals 16-17 in 2006-07 58,800 366,200 16.0 Taxation 16-17 in 2007-08 60,200 384,600 15.7 16-17 in 2008-09 63,500 406,100 15.6 Question 16-17 in 2009-10 65,200 416,400 15.7 Asked by The Lord Bishop of Derby 16-17 in 2010-11 66,800 406,400 16.4 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they * Only includes those with known FSM status at age 15 will take steps to encourage British overseas Source: DfE Matched Administrative Data territories and Crown dependencies to sign the WA 35 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 36

multilateral convention on mutual administrative for alterations to protected buildings; and what assistance in tax matters. [HL79] assessment they have made of the increased cost of looking after the heritage of university listed buildings and ensuring that they are fit for purpose in the The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord 21st century. [HL40] Sassoon): The Government are encouraging British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies to join the multilateral convention. Any decision on whether The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department to join is a matter for them. for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): The department has not undertaken research to evaluate the impact on universities of the removal of the zero Universities: Conservation rate of VAT for alterations to protected buildings. Universities are responsible for a wide variety of Question buildings, including many that are listed, and so play a Asked by Baroness Deech significant role in heritage conservation. The maintenance and operation of university buildings are a matter for To ask Her Majesty’s Government what research individual universities which fund their infrastructure has been undertaken to evaluate the impact on from operating surpluses, government grants, loans, universities of the removal of the zero rate of VAT property disposals and donations. Monday 21 May 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Elections: National Assembly for Wales ...... 47 Higher Education: Student Loans ...... 51 Local Government Finance Bill...... 53 Health and Social Care...... 47 Terrorism: 7 July Inquest ...... 54 Health: Tuberculosis Screening...... 49 Transport: MoT Scheme...... 54

Monday 21 May 2012

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Agriculture: Barley and Wheat...... 21 Immigration: Detention Centres...... 26

Charity Emblems...... 21 Israel...... 27

Drugs: Thalidomide...... 21 Jordan and Egypt ...... 29

Elections: Police and Crime Commissioners ...... 22 Pensions...... 30

Embryology ...... 22 Pigs...... 30

Energy: Green Deal ...... 23 Police: Racism ...... 31

Energy: Wind Farms...... 23 Questions from the Media ...... 32

Gangmasters...... 24 Schools: Free Meals...... 33

Health: Mesothelioma ...... 24 Sudan ...... 34

Health: Podiatry ...... 25 Sudan and South Sudan ...... 34

Houses of Parliament: Mobile Devices...... 25 Taxation ...... 34

Human Rights ...... 26 Universities: Conservation...... 35 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL4]...... 25 [HL31]...... 27

[HL5]...... 25 [HL32]...... 28

[HL10]...... 31 [HL33]...... 28

[HL11]...... 32 [HL35]...... 24

[HL17]...... 33 [HL39]...... 23

[HL21]...... 24 [HL40]...... 36

[HL22]...... 24 [HL48]...... 21

[HL23]...... 32 [HL55]...... 22

[HL28]...... 32 [HL56]...... 22

[HL29]...... 27 [HL57]...... 23 Col. No. Col. No. [HL59]...... 25 [HL79]...... 35

[HL60]...... 34 [HL104] ...... 26 [HL113] ...... 34 [HL62]...... 29 [HL122] ...... 21 [HL66]...... 30 [HL133] ...... 21 [HL67]...... 26 [HL146] ...... 22 [HL72]...... 30 [HL168] ...... 25 Volume 737 Monday No. 7 21 May 2012

CONTENTS

Monday 21 May 2012 Questions Israel and Palestine: West Bank ...... 625 Arms Trade Treaty ...... 627 Bangladesh...... 630 Malawi ...... 631 Canterbury City Council Bill Leeds City Council Bill Nottingham City Council Bill Reading Borough Council Bill City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] City of Westminster Bill [HL] Transport for London Bill [HL] Motions to Resolve...... 634 Small and Medium-sized Enterprises Public Service Provision ...... 635 Adoption Motions to Approve...... 636 Olympic and Paralympic Games 2012 Motion to Take Note ...... 636 Employment Law Statement...... 671 Euro Area Crisis: EUC Report Motion to Take Note ...... 679 Written Statements...... WS 47 Written Answers...... WA 2 1