A CONVERSATION WITH DR MO IBRAHIM SOCIETY A CONVERSATION WITH DR MO IBRAHIM

The dispenses the The problem that I found later, that you have behaved since. distances where communication much later on, was that many You also happen to be a very is so essential. Africa was not as largest annual prize in the world, giving managers don’t know, but they good entrepreneur, and that bad a business proposition as it US$5 million to former African heads are too shy to say that they don’t means a man who calculates a was perceived. know. That is a problem. When I risk and then runs with it. That I talked last night at the of state who have shown exceptional first started out I was an ignorant is the kind of man I think you lecture about the problem with leadership. Dr Ibrahim is a Sudanese businessman, but I knew I was are. You look at a risk and when the media images presented ignorant, I could not read the things get tough inside that risk, from Africa. When the media born British entrepreneur who created balance sheet, I could not read you don’t lose heart. This is a gift only has a very short space of the Foundation in 2006. The company he the business plan, but I made sure which very few people have. time with a bulletin that is 15 that I listened and learned, and minutes long and they have just founded, Celtel International, has brought that ensured our success. I think a MI: I believe also it is very one minute for Africa, they just the benefits of mobile communications bit of humility always helps. important to pick up good don’t have time to go through it people. We need to have good all. They’ll often show just Darfur to 15 African countries, covering more AR: Can I just say that, knowing people and also make them and Zimbabwe and then they than a third of the continent’s population. you as well as I do, Mo, you’re partners in our business. All our change the subject! But there always going to be modest people are partners in all our are 50 other African countries The telecommunications engineer gave a about answering a question like businesses, and they are the best which are doing fine and we talk about his work at The Royal Academy this. We have worked together people. They just need the light! don’t hear about them. There is for a good many years and I find a gap and, when there is a gap of Engineering’s International Lecture in that the engineering basis of AR: I will go to another question, between perception and reality, November 2008. The following day, he the way you approach things is because that was a rather there is always good business. based on logic. You look right personal one. Why do you think Persuading the banks that talked to Academy Fellow Sir Alan Rudge through to see the bones of a your experience of doing business there is an opportunity, well for Ingenia magazine. Sir Alan is a former system, if you like, whatever that in Africa, in particular, has been may be, and what you don’t so much more successful than Chief Executive and President of Celtel know, you don’t mind asking. most pundits would have led International. I think that’s an engineering us to expect? When we started approach. this business, there was a lot of An engineer goes into a negativism about Africa, and confused situation, looks at indeed about telecoms soon SIR ALAN RUDGE: DR MO IBRAHIM: some facts, then puts together a afterwards. Bringing the two I would like to put a few I did not set out to become a model. You have done that over together didn’t make it easy. Why questions to you and get your businessman. In fact I think and over again with businesses. do you think you’ve managed to take on a number of issues it has helped a lot that I am You put them together and see be so successful? which might interest engineers an engineer and not a trained that “there’s a prospect here”. and potential engineers. businessman. I have not learnt Others don’t see that because MI: I think there was a very How do you think that your theoretical business practices they are looking at the fluff and clear market there. I just couldn’t background as an engineer from school; instead I have learnt not the bones. I think that you believe why other people has influenced your work as a on the job. I find that much have that insight. and companies could not businessman and what factors safer, because then when I don’t You were a very good see it. There is very little fixed engineer and I think that comes communication on most of the do you think have underpinned know something I can ask, clarify Sir Alan Rudge interviewed Dr Mo Ibrahim at the Ibrahim Foundation's your success? and find out. through in many of the ways continent and yet we have vast London HQ

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Photographs courtesy of Barry Weekes

that is another problem but everybody. To some extent, much earnings. To persuade the MI: That was very delicate of somebody else’s system. In prioritise those in terms of their problems was having a platform, we started getting operating Africa is protected. For example, banks to provide loans we had to and I’ll tell you why: it is much addition we often had to build importance to a developing a fair playing field upon which to licences country by country. I we don’t have a mortgage mortgage all of our operations, tougher. We build networks the roads to get to the places Africa? base the investment. If you are think the first one was Uganda, industry in Africa. If you are plus the cash we had in the everywhere in Europe and in where we wanted to put up the going to put a lot of expensive then Zambia. By the time we a professional in Ghana, for bank – about $40 million – to get well-developed countries and networks! MI: I think each of them has equipment into a country, then finished, we had 15 countries, all example a dentist or a university this $190 million debt. That is a if I wanted to develop a network a role today. I imagine by aid you had better understand in sub-Saharan Africa … professor, and you want to buy terrible situation to find yourself in the UK, no problem. Of course, AR: We also had to build you mean relief aid. Relief the rules, know about the your apartment, you had better in when you know that the I would need to find somewhere networks in countries that aid is meant to ease and we taxation and know about how AR: … and each of those had bring along $100,000 cash. company is worth so much more. to put towers or roofs to put were at war. In Sierra Leone, need to ease that pain, there the government is likely to act. to be backed by a network There are no mortgage products. my aerials on, a cabin to put my for example, we were actually is no question about it. It is Once your equipment is in there, build and a network investment In Africa there is very little like AR: In the UK or in the west, equipment in, etc. Then I would building the network there – very admirable. But it is really you have made an investment, with the latest technology. We that. If you are in America and almost anywhere, you, as phone BT, the biggest operator, the first network constructed by making investments in and you’re stuck with it. If they weren’t buying old technology you are unemployed, they may management, would have been the local guys and say: “I want there – and our manager would the country and good use want to turn the tables on you – we were buying the latest give you $120,000. But if you are criticised for having an inefficient so much bandwidth for these disappear out of one door of these investments, and at that point and tax you unfairly and best technology – and a dentist in Ghana, then sorry, balance sheet. I mean, they stations to connect all the pieces when the rebels were charging creating the climate to enable or put huge charges on you the capital implications of that no, we don’t have a mortgage would want you to have a together”. So you ask the local in the other end of a building! this investment to be made in bringing equipment into the were severe. We had to have for you! substantially greater debt. fixed operators, and you lease The interesting thing was, they the first place – that is what is country, let alone anything else, cash or credit to get into these I’ll give you another instance, this, and it is very cheap. didn’t destroy our equipment important. then you don’t have a business. businesses and that was the big and that is with our company. MI: I remember being told that However, if I go to do this and the reason for that is that These two things go hand in Your business stops there. challenge that you faced. The maximum debt our company we were selling the family silver, in the Congo or somewhere everybody was dependent on it hand. Without investment, there Do you think Africa is managed to reach was in January because we had to sell equity else, there is no fixed operator. in the end, so be they rebels or is no good job creation, there is MI: All our investment, our still a good place for business or February 2005, when we to raise money, because we So I have to build all this government, they needed to use no wealth creation, then we go infrastructure, is in the country. investment in the current needed to sign a deal, and that could not risk debt. That way we backbone myself. We had to the infrastructure. back into the same downward We are not like a mining economic climate, Mo? was $190 million. Two months achieved a much better return build microwave links right Mo, what do you see as spiral again. What is important company which is going in, Things are pretty desperate later, we sold the company for our shareholders by erasing across the country in many the real key to economic now is to create that climate for picking up diamonds or coal in the west! for $3.4 billion! That raises a the debt. instances because there was development in Africa? investment. Good governance or cobalt or whatever, and question. You look at the balance no way of linking our stations For example, how do you and transparency are crucial for taking it out of the country. MI: I guess nobody knows sheets of Vodafone or Orange AR: And, of course, substantial together without building the prioritise the importance of this. We are taking nothing out what a good investment is in or anybody, and see how much sums were required to create the infrastructure. the theme, which you have of the country. We put this any country now. We have debt those companies carry infrastructure for the business - We have to do everything, taken up, of good governance, AR: That is particularly true in infrastructure in the country and had a financial tsunami that against how much valuation they no easy matter in Africa. we have to build the backbone against external aid and the kind of business that Celtel that’s it. We are so much in. has created problems for have, or how much profit or how ourselves, instead of using part charitable activity, or business is engaged in. One of our big development. How would you

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“All our investment, our infrastructure, is in the country. We are not to happen in a completely doing very well. Surprise, job. I am not really critical of the transparent manner. We are not surprise! I’m British too, so British Government. That will DR MOHAMED IBRAHIM – a brief CV like a mining company which is going in picking up diamonds or giving money under the table. It I am always critical of my please you! Dr Mo Ibrahim studied for his BSc in Electrical Engineering at the is absolutely up front. Government! In Africa, the University of Alexandria. He gained an MSc in Electronics and coal or cobalt or whatever and taking it out of the country. We are British Government has been AR: I would just like to thank Electrical Engineering at the , and qualified for taking nothing out of the country. We put this infrastructure in the AR: The point that you made doing very well. I want it to you, Mo, both for the lecture last his PhD in Mobile Communications , UK. last night was important too. continue what it’s doing, pay night, and for giving us the time Dr Ibrahim is the founder and former chairman of Celtel country and that’s it. We are so much in.” (Dr Mo Ibrahim) You said that we are dealing more attention to the areas of for an Ingenia interview. International. In 2005, Celtel International was sold to MTC with the good guys, not the infrastructure and education. Kuwait for $3.4 billion, making it one of Africa’s most successful bad guys. When people think I think these are the two areas MI: Thank you very much for commercial ventures. Dr Ibrahim is also founding chairman of of these criticisms, they think, which really help and they inviting me. Satya Capital, an investment company focused on opportunities why should you pay Mugabe? should really focus on these in Africa. In 2006, Dr Ibrahim established the Mo Ibrahim Foundation to support great African leadership. That’s what is in their mind. two areas. The Government To watch the film of Dr Mo In 2007, Dr Ibrahim was awarded the GSM Association Chairman’s In fact, you have made the should continue to advocate the Ibrahim’s lecture ‘Africa Works’ Award, the telecommunication industry’s highest accolade, for point. Africa is a big continent, continuation of pursuing the delivered on 5 November 2008 “helping the world to hear Africa’s voice”. In 2008, Dr Ibrahim was and there are 53 countries, development cause and I think go to www.raeng.org.uk/ presented with the BNP Paribas Prize for Philanthropy and listed by AR: And now we come to paid for, Alan. You were a senior their living, but we want them and there are people there Gordon Brown is doing a good Ibrahim perhaps your most creative teacher, a senior executive in BT, to continue to work in public who are working honestly and TIME Magazine as one of the 100 most influential people in the world. activity – the Foundation. Nobody that was your job, but it doesn’t service. So we say: we are dedicatedly, to try to improve on earth, short of Mo Ibrahim, follow that if you have excelled going to take care of you, please the performance of their would have come up with this in your job, that we shouldn’t continue to do your work. That particular nation. It is the good The Largest Prize in the World Festus Gontebanye Mogae, the former President of Botswana, was idea, its extraordinary goals and recognise that and reward it. is why we pay them and that’s guys that this is targeted at, awarded the Ibrahim Prize for Achievement in African Leadership intentions; I am quite convinced The monetary aspect about why the money stays like that. to make an example of them, in November 2008. Established to recognise and celebrate about that. But Mo, how do you the Foundation is accidental. We pay them $500,000 a year, not just to hand out money to excellence in African leadership, the Ibrahim Prize is the largest respond to the criticism that you What we wanted to establish and then $200,000 for these people you want to get rid of, annually awarded prize in the world, consisting of US$5 million certainly had at the beginning, and acknowledge was the charitable organisations. who you want out of office. It is over 10 years and US$200,000 annually for life thereafter. The that good governance shouldn’t exceptional leader. If we The Foundation has this celebrating success not failure. Foundation considers granting a further US$200,000 per year be rewarded with a large are agreed that he or she is concept that there is life after for 10 years towards public interest activities and good causes monetary prize? exceptional, if he excels and office. Look at what Mandela MI: A lot of people say: why finishes the job and wins has been doing. He is a big don’t you give the money to espoused by the prize winner. MI: Good governance and our prize, then we want this inspiration to us. How much do Mugabe, so that he can go? We Announcing the 2008 Ibrahim prize winner in front of an good leadership, and remember exceptional person to continue you think he did what he did for said we would not do it. Even audience of London’s African diplomatic community, civil society we are talking about exceptional to work in the service of not Aids? Would he have been able if he said ‘please give it to me, representatives and the media, Kofi Anan, the Chair of the Prize leadership, I think that that only his country, but all of Africa. to do this without the Mandela and I’ll go’, we would not do it, Committee said: “President Mogae’s outstanding leadership has should be recognised. As How do you ensure that? Foundation? Who gave him because it is self-defeating. ensured Botswana’s continued stability and prosperity in the human beings, we should African presidents, unlike the money to fly in a private face of an HIV/Aids pandemic which threatened the future of his show recognition. Alan, you Western leaders, are not invited airplane because he is so sick he AR: Finally, then, if you have country and people.” are Sir Alan Rudge – why the to the boards of the banks. has to sleep, to lie down? Who as a goal the encouragement Kofi Annan went on to praise President Mogae’s stewardship ‘Sir’? It was given to you in There is no government to pay gave him the plane to fly here of good economic and political of the Botswanan economy. He said: “Botswana demonstrates recognition of things that you that money. If they join the and there, live in hotels, who is development in Africa, what how a country with natural resources can promote sustainable did for this community. Here, boards of the great banks or looking after that? Somebody actions would you like to development with good governance, in a continent where too they rewarded you by knighting great companies, they get a lot must be looking after that. see most from the British often mineral wealth has become a curse.” you. Every society has its own of money for that. Memoirs, Without that, he wouldn’t be Government in this connection, The Prize Committee assesses democratically elected former way and method of rewarding speech circuits – do you know able to function. what could they do? Executive Heads of State or Government from sub-Saharan African those bright people who do how much they pay? So what I say is, we need countries who have served their term in office within the limits set Our people don’t have this. those leaders to function, MI: To be honest, I think by their country’s constitution, and have left office within the last exceptional things. Whatever Festus Gontebanye Mogae © www.moibrahimfoundation.org you did workwise, you were They have to go on and earn and we have to enable that the British Government is three years. See www.moibrahimfoundation.org for more details.

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