religion. The second circle includes non- Christians—Buddhists, Moslems, Hindus, The Church Under Siege: Jews, and others. The third refers to Chris- tians who are not Roman Catholics— Reflections on the Protestants, Greek Orthodox, and so on. The first contact between the Vatican and the Utrecht-based IHEU, which represents Vatican/Humanist Dialogue more than sixty-five humanist organizations in twenty-four countries, took place in 1965. An informal preliminary meeting was held in Amersfoort, the Netherlands, shortly Paul Kurtz thereafter, and the first formal dialogue between the two groups was convened in hroughout most of its long history, the eluding five from the Vatican hierarchy in 1970 in Brussels. It was held in the still strong T Roman Catholic church has viewed Rome, and eight humanist leaders. The Vati- afterglow of Vatican II, and was conducted secular humanism as one of the principal can side was represented by the French on friendly terms; indeed, the Roman enemies of the faith. The church as an Cardinal Paul Poupard, president of the Catholics present agreed with many of the authoritarian institution has traditionally Secretariat for Nonbelievers; the Belgian humanist sentiments expressed. opposed free thought, modernism, and reli- Cardinal Godfried Danneels, an influential I took part in that dialogue as well, along gious dissent; indeed, for a long time it voice in the church; and others. with J. P. van Praag of the Netherlands, blocked efforts of reformers to extend the The humanist representatives included the founding president of the IHEU; the methods of scientific inquiry, to democratize IHEU co-president Rob Tielman of the distinguished British humanist author H. J. society, and to revise ancient moral doc- Netherlands and four influential female Blackham; and Wim Van Dooren of the trines. The persecution of Galileo four cen- humanist leaders: Lily Boeykens, president Netherlands; among others. Representing turies ago has stood as a powerful symbol of the Paris-based International Women's the Roman Catholic side were Father of the battle between science and theology— Council, a leader in the women's movement Vincenzo Miano, Secretary of the Secret- but the church has since attempted to recon- in Europe; Lydia Blontrock, president of the ariat for Nonbelievers; Monsignor Albert cile itself to science. Today, it does not con- Humanist League of Belgium; Anne-Marie Dondeyne, a liberal Belgian theologian; and test Darwinism or the theory of evolution. Franchi, vice-president of the three-million- the Secretariat's national secretaries from It even allowed the Shroud of Turin to be member French League of Teachers and Holland, Spain, England, and France. carbon dated to determine its age. Educators; and Renate Munkebye of Nor- The main theme of that dialogue con- Nevertheless, the church is still viewed way's Church-State Committee. Since the cerned the common responsibilities that as the arch opponent of vital humanist moral exclusive male hierarchy of the Vatican does humanists and Catholics face in the modern concerns. Indeed, the glacial attitudes of an not grant women equal footing, we thought world. We discussed the underlying values entrenched hierarchy continue to do battle it important to confront the Vatican curiae of humanists and Christians, the open soci- with a whole number of humanistic ethical with the voices of these women. ety and the place of education within it, and principles, such as equal rights for women; The Vatican delegation officially repre- our overall responsibilities in confronting the moral education in the public schools; and sented the Secretariat for Nonbelievers, a world's problems. We parted on a most the right to self-determination regarding body created by Pope Paul VI in 1965 in cordial note. issues like abortion, euthanasia, and sexual the wake of Vatican II. The declared purpose (I remember being seated across from freedom between consenting adults. of the Secretariat is to promote liaison Father Miano at a farewell banquet, held Vatican II attempted to modify the between the Catholic church and non- at a fine Belgian restaurant. After consuming church's hostile approach to the modern Catholics. Headed by a cardinal who attends goodly quantities of fine French wine, he pluralistic world. Since that council more monthly meetings with the pope, its first confessed to me that he had never in his than twenty years ago, the Roman curiae president was Cardinal Franz Koenig of life had dinner with a nonbeliever, let alone have been more willing to engage in dia- Austria; the current president, Cardinal an avowed atheist, and that he was surprised logues with nonbelievers. I was fortunate Poupard, is a former rector of the Catholic at how friendly our relationship had be- enough to have participated in the latest such Institute of Paris. The Secretariat includes come—to which I immediately offered a dialogue, which took place between high an international body of twenty-five cardi- toast and quipped, "In vino veritas!') officials of the Vatican and members of the nals and bishops, and convenes plenary ses- Following that dialogue, I suggested to International Humanist and Ethical Union sions from time to time with the pope Father Miano that we convene another one, (IHEU) in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, present. In addition, many countries have in North America, for which he was able from September 30 to October 2, 1988. This established their own Secretariats for Non- to get approval. We organized that dialogue article recounts my impressions of that believers. in cooperation with the U.S. Secretariat for encounter. The Secretariat's charter is the encyclical Nonbelievers, headed by Willis J. Egan. He Ecclesium Suam, which was issued by Paul arranged for us to meet at the Jesuit Center he dialogue brought together a delega- VI on August 4, 1964, and addressed itself in New York, under the cosponsorship of tion of nine Roman Catholics, in- to three concentric circles. The outer circle, its magazine, America, and I arranged the broadest, encompasses all of humankind meetings at the headquarters of the Amer- Paul Kurtz is co-president of the Inter- and includes people who profess no religion, ican Ethical Union. national Humanist and Ethical Union. including atheists, agnostics, and humanists, The humanists present at that dialogue and those who are entirely indifferent to were the philosophers Sidney Hook, Charles

44 FREE INQUIRY Frankel, Ernest Nagel, Corliss Lamont, the send two cardinals to the dialogue; thus we of Cardinals participated. behavioral psychologist B. F. Skinner, the were pleased when they both arrived Cardinal Poupard said that as we ap- eighty-year-old Blanshard twins, Paul and promptly at eight o'clock on Friday evening. proach the year 2000, "dialogue is vital for Brand, political scientist Roy Fairfield, They did not come in flowing red robes, but humanity. We are, believers and nonbeliev- Henry Morgentaler, fire-brand atheist were dressed in priestly black suits and white ers alike, embarked upon the same adventure Madalyn Murray O'Hair, and others. The collars with little red buttons on their lapels, and exposed to the same dangers." Here he Catholic church was represented by its most the only sign of their high ecclesiastical referred to the enormous perils posed by the liberal spokesmen, including Father Charles office. Cardinal Poupard, a powerful force rapid progress of science and technology, the Curran, who would later lose his position in the church, carried himself like an Army ideological crisis, the decline in ethical at the Catholic University of America; general, stiff and formal. Cardinal Danneels, values, the menace of totalitarianism, the theologian Daniel Maguire; medical ethicists stout and short, with a round face and deli- problems of the Third World, the develop- Daniel J. and Mrs. Sidney Callahan; and cate fingers, was reserved and shy. ment of sects and cults, and so on. He noted the well-known Catholic journalist John that we share a common humanistic tradi- Cogley; among others. he dialogue took place in the Hotel tion, including what he called "secularized Again the dialogue was held in a spirit T Krasnapolsky, a grand structure built Christian human values," the most evident of mutual give and take, despite an inflam- in the late nineteenth century in the heart of which are our common defense of liberty, matory talk by Madalyn O'Hair—though we of Amsterdam opposite the queen's palace. equality, the rights of man, democracy, and clearly recognized that we had differences Rob Tielman chaired the first session. I the ideals of fraternity and solidarity. He in doctrine and morality. The meeting opened the dialogue with welcoming added that Vatican II recognized the exis- received considerable press coverage, includ- remarks, noting that the humanists were tence of pluralism and the importance of ing a feature story in the New York Times. As far as I am aware, that was the last major dialogue convened between Roman An extraordinary dialogue between high officials of the Catholics and humanists under Vatican Vatican and members of the International Humanist and sponsorship, though the Vatican has held Ethical Union was convened in Amsterdam September 30 sporadic parleys with Marxist nonbelievers. Efforts to organize another dialogue became to October 2, 1988. almost nonexistent after 1975, when grave misgivings about the "excessive doctrinal delighted to participate, in the "spirit of religious liberty, and that the church espe- liberalism" of Vatican II sparked a swing mutual tolerance." I noted that, living cially appreciates the fundamental values of toward conservatism in the church. For some together in this pluralistic world, we must humanism, which "profoundly and sincerely time there was no further contact, though learn to cooperate if we wish to solve the respect the principles and beliefs of others." Vatican emissaries attended IHEU con- awesome problems faced by humankind: the Thus, he said, "the confrontation between gresses in 1978, 1982, and 1986. defense of human rights, population growth, religious sectors of the world and atheists It was with a good deal of surprise that world hunger, the protection of the envir- and agnostics" is a sign of the times, for we learned at the IHEU Congress in Oslo onment, and the need for democracy and "we need to recognize the essential rights in 1986 from the Vatican representative world peace. of free conscience." Father Aaelred Pereira that the Vatican was I also pointed out that there are hundreds The cardinal's remarks disarmed the interested in resuming dialogues with us. In of millions of nonbelievers in the world— humanists present, for he seemed to be correspondence with Rob Tielman, the including many influential scientists, philos- reiterating the key principle of the humanist Vatican agreed that a dialogue would be held ophers, writers, and artists—and that the platform: the need for free inquiry in the in the Netherlands. We had suggested that IHEU has crystallized the secular outlook spirit of tolerance. we discuss the separation of church and and humanist values of this powerful sector Suspicion of the Vatican runs deep state—a sore point of contention between of modern society. I added that the separa- among humanists and freethinkers. At the Roman Catholics and others in many tion of church and state was no doubt the very last moment, Howard Radest, the countries—and Franc Rodé, secretary of the most provocative topic we could discuss, but executive director of the Ethical Culture Secretariat for Nonbelievers, had agreed to we looked forward to honest dialogue. Fieldston Schools, was unable to attend the that. Upon his arrival in Amsterdam, how- Cardinal Poupard also offered welcom- dialogue, and I endeavored by long-distance ever, Cardinal Poupard said that it was his ing remarks. He had a specially prepared telephone to find a replacement. Since the understanding that the topic would be official text, distributed to all participants, bulk of the dialogue would be conducted "Religion and Humanism in Public Life," which he read the next day. He said that in French, I phoned my old friend, Professor which had also been raised in our prelimi- he was happy to participate in this dialogue, Yves Galifret, a member of the Academy nary correspondence. In any case, the papers especially since the IHEU and the Vatican of Humanism and the executive director of read at the dialogue dealt with both themes. have a history that goes back to 1965. Al- l'Union Rationaliste, a bastion of free think- The Vatican had recommended that each though humanists and Catholics had met ing and a member organization of the IHEU, side bring along eight representatives, previously, this dialogue, he said, was the for suggestions. He pointed out that many though at the last minute they added a first that had been officially organized rationalists are opposed in principle to a ninth—Krzysztof Sliwinsky, from Warsaw, conjointly on the international level. Appar- dialogue with the church, and believed that whom we were told was a personal friend ently he was unaware of our meeting in we had nothing to gain by the dialogue. I and colleague of the pope. We did not object, Brussels in 1970 (he had assumed the presi- responded that living in the same world, we for we had four unofficial observers on the dency of the Secretariat in 1980), but in any should be willing to dialogue with anyone— sidelines. We were not certain until the very case this was certainly the first dialogue in even the devil—to which he retorted, "Ah, last moment that the Vatican would indeed which the highest officials from the College but carry a big stick and keep your distance."

Winter 1988/89 45 He also told me that only a week earlier and a dialogue with the Soviets appears to that the right to self-determination is a basic the Roman Catholic church in France had be in the offing. Poupard also expressed human right, and that humanists wish to begun a campaign to introduce catechism concern over the New Age paranormal cults cultivate responsible moral choice. In the into the public schools, a move that angered that are proliferating everywhere. Even in Netherlands there is considerable sexual many of the French people, for it breeched the traditional bastions of Roman Catholi- freedom, and active euthanasia is openly the principle of separation of church and cism, he said, the church's influence "is being practiced, for these are considered private state stoutly affirmed since the French undermined by secularism," and a "vast matters. "Humanists assume," Tielman said, Revolution. Moreover, he said that earlier indifference" to its message is caused by "that human beings give meaning to their this summer the pope had proclaimed the "competing consumer-oriented economies of lives, whereas theistic religion assumes that church's desire to "re-Christianize Europe." affluence." there is a creator who made life meaningful." On the Catholic side, too, some opposed I replied that humanists believe in free- Humanists favor the separation of church the dialogue and questioned its value to the dom and reason; we are not a militant force and state and believe that "no state has the church, saying that secular humanists repre- seeking to impose our views on others. We right to impose religious or ideological views sent only a small minority of unbelievers. believe in methods of persuasion and educa- upon others"—the state should either be One question on our minds when we tion. If the Roman Catholic church is genu- neutralistic (as in the United States), in which arrived in the Netherlands was, "Why does ine in its desire to defend democracy and case it gives no support to any kind of the Vatican wish to resume dialogue after human rights, I said, then we share common religion, or pluralistic (as in Scandinavia, such a long hiatus?" It was answered in part values; we likewise are critical of Moslem Belgium, the Netherlands, and West Ger- in recent issues of Atheism and Dialogue, intransigence and the cults of unreason that many), in which case it supports a variety a journal published by the Secretariat. A new seem to be flourishing. I even suggested, half of religious and nonreligious belief and value policy appears to be brewing, and it has three jokingly, that the Catholics and the human- systems. main goals: First, the Vatican wishes to ists cosponsor a conference on Islam and The Catholics at the dialogue said that understand the causes for the widespread the Koran—but despite these remarks, I they believe in personal liberty and, indeed, growth of unbelief, skepticism, and atheism remained wary of the danger faced by the Professor Rene Costé of the Catholic faculty worldwide. Second, it recognizes that, since lamb entering the lion's den. of Toulouse said that since Vatican II the Roman Catholics must coexist with non- church accepts the position that conscience Catholics in today's pluralistic society, an everal themes were discussed at the precedes all other freedoms.4 Considerable effort at dialogue may prove beneficial. S dialogue: dissent was expressed among the Catholics, Third, it wishes to evangelize and, if possible, 1. The right of privacy: I read the first however, about where to draw the line "re-Christianize" unbelievers, though the paper, "The Right of Privacy," based on a between the private and public domain. Is Vatican has no illusions that it will succeed chapter in my book, Forbidden Fruit: The religion a public or private matter? For the completely in this effort. To mark this new Ethics of Humanism. 3 I pointed out that our church, it is essentially public and cannot mood, the Secretariat for Nonbelievers will dispute with the Roman Catholic church in retreat to the inward soul, said Franc Rodé. be officially renamed in March 1989; hence- many countries concerns the question of Emile Poulat, director of L'École des Hautes forth it is to be called the Pontifical Council personal liberty. We believe in an open, Études en Science Sociales in Paris, noted for Dialogue with Nonbelievers, thus em- democratic, and pluralistic society and, to that where you draw the line between public phasizing the need for dialogue. paraphrase John Stuart Mill, we wish indi- and private is often difficult to say—a view The Roman Catholic church is politically viduals to have the right to choose their own with which we concurred. The right of pri- sagacious, having survived two millennia, beliefs and lifestyles, as long as they do not vacy is not absolute, and its range of appli- and it no doubt takes a long-range view of harm others or prevent them from exercising cation must be determined on a case-by-case the future. The impression that I gained, their rights. The principle of privacy is under basis. The Catholics were especially con- both through the dialogue and in less formal intensive debate in many countries of the cerned about whether humanist morality was conversation, is that there is a siege mentality world. Robert Bork's nomination to the U.S. responsible and involved "higher values." at work within the Vatican. Humanists view Supreme Court in 1987 was probably Clearly, they do not apply the principle of the Roman Catholic church as a powerful rejected because of his views on privacy. The privacy to abortion, euthanasia, birth force, but the church itself feels threatened right to privacy applies to confidentiality; control, or sexual morality, whereas hum- and beleaguered. One growing threat is mili- to control over one's own body, particularly anists do. The humanists were fearful of tant Islam. Past efforts to convert Moslems regarding such issues as abortion and efforts by the church to legislate morality to Catholicism have largely failed; there are euthanasia; to sexual relations between con- or to force its doctrine on the pluralistic now three million Moslems in France alone, senting adults; to informed consent in medi- society. which is viewed as an ominous development. cine; and to other areas. To believe in the 2. Alternative life-stances. A key concern During a luncheon Cardinal Poupard con- right to privacy does not mean that one con- of the humanists present was whether fessed to me, "They've had no Bultmann to dones licentiousness or that the varieties of Roman Catholics recognize the rights and critically examine the Koran—and they are individual taste are immune to criticism; freedom of conscience of nonbelievers. The fanatical in their devotion."2 In the Western indeed, we must constantly raise our levels Catholics present said that belief should not world, militant Protestant fundamentalism of aesthetic appreciation and seek to develop be a matter of compulsion but of persuasion attacks the church—the Irish Protestant Ian moral responsibility. Nonetheless, we do not and conviction; they accepted the democratic Paisley has called the pope the Antichrist. wish the church to impose its moral views principle of freedom of thought and con- Cardinal Poupard mentioned the "large in private matters, or to use the state to science. communist/ atheist bloc in which religion has regulate private—as distinct from public— Harry Stopes-Roe, representing the Brit- been suppressed"; indeed, the church has conduct. ish Humanist Association, emphasized that resumed dialogue within the past two years The same theme was reiterated later in humanism is not a religion, calling it a "life- with Marxists in Hungary and Yugoslavia, the dialogue by Rob Tielman, who argued stance" that expresses a naturalistic view of

46 FREE INQUIRY reality and a set of ethical values. The secular tion" for celebrating the rites of passage; a tion of the law in democratic societies. The state should recognize the freedom of its sense of the transcendent permeates society. Roman Catholics present reaffirmed that people to espouse humanist life-stances as Religion is thus essential to society and freedom of religion includes freedom of non- well as to adhere to theistic religions. Our cannot simply be abandoned. belief. Lydia Blontrock and Lily Boeykens effort to include a "life-stance" provision in Carrier granted that the secularization pointed out that, although humanists may the jointly drafted final statement was de- and pluralism of modern life have reduced be nonbelievers insofar as they reject Chris- leted by the Vatican delegates, perhaps the influence of the traditional religions in tianity, they nonetheless cherish their own partially because it is difficult to translate all aspects of social life—politics, the family, positive beliefs and values. I have used the the term into French, and they found its work, the economy, art, philosophy, and term eupraxophy (literally translated to meaning vague. Cardinal Poupard acknowl- literature—but the religious tendency is mean "good conduct and wisdom') to ex- edged that Catholics recognize "different nonetheless expressed instead in the form press the nonreligious naturalistic and conceptions of the world," including those of cults and New Age religions—or "a humanistic way of life, which does not imply of atheists and agnostics, and he affirmed, religion of trivia" exploited by the media. Carrier's "invisible religion." without any dissent from the Catholics Thus, he said, efforts to privatize religion 3. Religion in public life and the separa- present, that the humanist way of life is as have failed, and an "invisible religion" tion of church and state. The central issue much entitled to protection by the state as persists in the West. "To be human is to obviously concerns the role of religion and is the religious. be religious," he maintained. humanism in public life. Where do you draw The humanists stressed that they do not Carrier's paper provoked lively comment. the line between church and state? Franc believe that the rights of unbelievers have Poulat disagreed that religion is universal. Rodé justified the principle of separation of been sufficiently respected by believers. Stopes-Roe maintained that the definition church and state based on the sayings of Oldrich Andrysek, a young humanist lawyer of "religion" is at issue and that one's life- Jesus. He maintained that Christ defended representing the Human Rights Commission stance need not be considered religious, for the separation principle—"Leave unto of the IHEU, has been endeavoring to get it expresses a philosophy and a moral Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto the European parliament in Strasbourg to posture. I said that Carrier had raised a point God the things that are God's"—and did not extend the concept of religious liberty so that that has always disturbed me, for I find that consider the state to be divine or a definitive it explicitly includes the rights of unbelievers. the "transcendental temptation," as reality. He noted that Jesus opposed the Although reassured that the Vatican does expressed in diverse forms, is pervasive in insurrection that the Zealots wished to respect the rights of nonbelievers, the human culture. Carrier had used the German mount against the Jewish theocracy and the humanists expressed doubts about whether theologian Paul Tillich's definition of Roman state, and that though Jesus critic- this attitude permeated the entire church. "ultimate concern" to apply to Marxism and ized the state, he also implied that it had We, in turn, affirmed our respect for reli- Maoism as forms of religion. But was he a proper function to exercise in its domain. gious liberty and our concern that repressive using the word so broadly, we asked, that Conversely, the state should not intrude on totalitarian communist regimes have in the it lost all meaning? Surely a humanist who God's domain. The early church, Rodé said, past denied this right, but by the same token adopts a way of life and has no sense of recognized the authority of the Roman we said we expected the Roman Catholic the transcendent should not be said to have Empire and affirmed its loyalty to it, but church to defend humanist rights in those a religion. during the period of persecution of the early areas of the world in which they are not In any case, there are millions of people church, it opposed the intrusion of totalit- respected. who claim to be areligious and follow a arian power upon religious conscience. Rodé Father Hervé Carrier, secretary of the humanist life-stance, who need equal protec- traced the relationship between church and Pontifical Council for Culture, argued in his state to Constantine, who proclaimed paper that "religion is a universal and perm- Christianity to be the official religion of the anent category of all cultures." He observed Roman Empire in the fifth century. He that modernization has been accompanied granted that during the Middle Ages the lines by secularist efforts to "reduce the role of between the church and state were blurred, traditional religious institutions" and "to but insisted that today the secular and efface spiritual values entirely from the pub- spiritual realms are distinct and that the lic sphere." But he said secularization has church has always believed the state should not succeeded in eclipsing the sacred, nor be limited in power. has it led to the extinction of religion, as The humanists found Rodé's defense of Marx and others at the end of the nineteenth separation fascinating but overstated, for the century believed it would. In none of the church has often sought to use the state to communist countries, even where atheistic enforce orthodoxy. Though Rodé main- propaganda has been conducted by the state, tained that this is truer of the Greek Ortho- have the predictions come true that religion dox brand of Christianity than of Roman would disappear. Nor has Freud's view of Catholicism, we pointed out that repressive religion as "an infantile projection" suc- regimes—those of Franco in Spain, Salazar ceeded in undermining religiosity. Both in Portugal, and many Latin American Marx and Freud, said Carrier, were revolting dictators—have bridged the gap between against their Jewish backgrounds—neither church and state and that the Roman appreciated the role that religions play in Catholic church did little to oppose their all cultures. Religion, Carrier maintained, efforts. provides society with a "coherent view of The humanists made it clear that the reality" and provides "supernatural legitima- Pope John Paul Il and Cardinal Poupard (far right). separation of church and state is a basic

Winter 1988/89 47 principle that cannot be compromised, espe- 1814 version read: state that allows liberty of conscience for cially in a pluralistic society where competing all and treats religious believers and nonbe- religions and eupraxophies contend. Given The Evangelical Lutheran religion remains lievers equally. Roman Catholics are glad the Roman Catholic church's historic effort the official religion of the state. The mem- to be protected in practicing their beliefs. to dominate political power in many coun- bers of this creed are obliged to educate their children in accordance with the The dialogue made it clear that profound tries, we are still uncertain even today that aforesaid creed. Permission is not granted changes were occurring in religious convic- the church will affirm religious liberty and monastic orders or Jesuits, and Jews are tions throughout the world—in some socie- will resolutely defend the rights of unbe- not allowed to enter the realm. ties the humanists even outnumber the lievers. In Ireland, for example, the church Roman Catholics. Rob Tielman pointed out still plays an inordinately important role. After intensive lobbying, this constitu- that twenty-five years ago, the population Rodé, Poulat, Costé, and others maintained tional provision was amended in 1964. of the Netherlands was divided about evenly that religion is a public matter that cannot Catholics and Jews had long since been per- between Catholics and Protestants, with a be exiled entirely to the private domain, that mitted to enter Norway, but the change made small Jewish minority, but recent polls indi- it must uphold its moral authority. Advocacy in 1964 is still too restrictive: cate that a massive shift has taken place. and persuasion, yes, we replied, but do not Today, fully fifty percent of the Dutch peo- seek to mandate your point of view on the All inhabitants of the realm are entitled ple consider themselves to be unbelievers, entire society by using state power. They to practice their religion. The Evangelical and twenty-five percent explicitly identify agreed that persuasion, not compulsion, is Lutheran religion remains the official reli- gion of the state. The members of this creed with humanism—whereas only twenty per- the ideal. are obliged to educate their children in ac- cent of the Dutch population now considers The humanists expressed the suspicion cordance with the aforesaid creed. itself Roman Catholic. Much of this is the that where the Roman Catholic church has result of the intensive efforts of the humanist a strong majority, it will cavalierly dismiss According to a 1980 poll, although 87.9 movement in the Netherlands, and humanist the rights of others, or even repress free percent of the population of Norway is offi- moral ideals today pervade the entire society. exercise. cially registered as Lutheran, only twelve Anne-Marie Franchi described the state "If the majority of a population wishes percent attend church regularly. The latest of belief in France, which traditionally has to pray in public life," asked Rodé, referring polls indicate that nineteen percent of the been considered a Roman Catholic country. specifically to Yugoslavia, where the com- Norwegian people consider themselves to be At the turn of the century, there were 58,400 munist regime has excluded religion from humanists. Father Bjorn Halverson, head of priests in France; by 1985 only 28,269 re- public life against the will of the majority, the Dominican Order of Scandinavia, said mained, and the decline is continuing. Al- "Why not allow it?" that Catholics represent a tiny minority in though a large majority of the French We responded with a question of our Scandinavia, that the churches in Norway population has been baptized as Roman own: "Is it only when Catholics are in a are empty, and that today only one to two Catholic, in 1986 only sixteen percent said minority, or live in a pluralistic society that percent of the total population actually at- that they practiced their religion regularly they cannot dominate, that they will defend tends religious services. and fifteen percent said occasionally; a huge separation?" The humanists have proposed another sixty-nine percent said that they were "non- I made it clear that humanists are not revision of Article II, which would in effect practicing." Moreover, twenty-six percent of only opposed to the union of church and disestablish the Evangelical Lutheran reli- the French population either denied the state (especially as seen in today's Islamic gion and guarantee the religious liberty of existence of God or called it improbable, countries), but also oppose the union of all. There is considerable sentiment in favor and only nineteen percent believed in im- ideology and state. The democratic state of the change, but it cannot be enacted before mortality. When French citizens were asked should be neutral, I said, and humanists 1991. Halverson maintained that he strongly whether their main decisions in life are based oppose all efforts by the state to indoctrinate supports the change in the constitution and upon their private conscience or upon the with atheism or Marxism or to prohibit the the humanist views on the separation of traditions of the Catholic church, eighty-two free exercise of alternative religions. I main- church and state. The proposed wording is percent claimed the former, though eleven tained that humanists would defend religious as follows: percent said that it was a combination of liberty in societies such as the Soviet Union, the two. Anne-Marie Franchi deplored the where it has not been recognized. The The state and its authorities shall ensure recent efforts by the church in France to Roman Catholics greeted my remarks with the fundamental human rights and free- introduce the catechism in the public evident approval, and I asked if, by the same doms, according to conventions agreed, schools, saying that these efforts belie pro- and contribute to developing and further- token, the church would support the rights fessions of belief in the separation of church of freethinkers and dissenters in religious ing these high principles. All inhabitants of the realm are entitled on equal condi- and state. societies. Yes, they affirmed—but we were tions to practice their religions and their The situations in the Netherlands and in left with the feeling that they spoke as indi- life-stances. France perhaps best indicate why the Roman viduals, not for the entire Catholic church. Catholic church is eager to parley with secu- 4. Religious and humanist minorities. Father Pereira, originally from India and lar humanists; for even in countries where Much of the dialogue dealt with the protec- a member of the Secretariat for Nonbe- traditional Roman Catholicism was strong, tion of minority belief systems. The first area lievers, said that Roman Catholics in India it is now being corroded by secularist influ- of the globe mentioned in this regard was constitute only a very small percentage of ences and public indifference. Cardinal John Scandinavia, where Roman Catholics have the population, and feel squeezed between J. O'Connor, archbishop of New York, re- been largely excluded by the Protestant the Hindu majority and the strong Moslem cently said that "the Christian church has establishment. Renate Munkebye described minority. He agreed with the humanists' become the counterculture in the modern the humanists' efforts to change Article II defense of religious liberty; the constitution secular age." I asked Father Carrier, a of the Norwegian constitution. The original specifies that India is a democratic secular French Canadian, to account for the massive

48 FREE INQUIRY changes taking place in Quebec, which was considered only a generation ago to be a bastion of devout Catholicism. Today secu- larism seems to have overtaken the province. All the polls indicate a falling away from the faith. Carrier admitted that he was mys- tified as to why these changes were occur- ring. Even in Italy, the home of the Vatican, where there is a large left-wing sector, only twenty-five percent of the population attends Sunday Mass. The Polish representative at the dialogue, Krzysztof Sliwinsky, was no doubt thinking about the role of the church in opposition

to the communist party in his country when Lydia Blontrock, Rob Tielman, and Anne-Marie Franchi. he called the church a "staunch defender of human rights" and maintained that "the by atheists, Marxists, and secularists, and heavily on Aristotle's teachings, surely cross represents the battle for freedom he feels similarly offended by their beliefs. appreciated this point. Are there not against totalitarian tyranny." Several hu- In his prepared remarks, Cardinal Dan- common moral decencies and ethical truths manists pointed out that this was not the neels said that the church cannot impose that we all share, deists and secularists alike? case historically and that the defense of anything on the secular society, but is obli- Is this not a part of the fund of human moral liberty seems to be a recent development. gated to proclaim the Truth as it sees it. experience developed in civilization? Lydia Lydia Blontrock noted that humanists are Although the church may work within a Blontrock pointed out that humanists still a minority in Belgium, particularly in political party, it cannot use unfair powers, believe deeply in moral education for the Flemish part of the country where the but can act only by persuasion, following children, and wish to teach this in the public Roman Catholic church is very powerful. the rules of democracy, and the state should schools. Harry Stopes-Roe said that human- Recent polls indicate, however, that only make conditions favorable for all religions ists are offended by the church's opposition thirty-five percent of the Belgian population or none. The humanists agreed fully with to birth control in the underdeveloped believes in a personal god and just twenty- these sentiments, but expressed the hope that nations and its views on the nature and role two percent practices religion regularly. She in public life, the hierarchy would adhere of human sexuality. Father Costé asked was disturbed by the fact that separation of to democratic principles. whether humanists believe, as do Roman church and state is not adhered to by the 5. Morality. A controversy emerged dur- Catholics, that the world needs a universal church, even though the Belgian constitution ing the dialogue concerning our different ethics on a global scale. Yes, I responded, of 1831 affirmed this principle. For example, views about the foundations of morality. we believe in the doctrine of human rights crosses and crucifixes are still displayed in Cardinal Danneels said that humanists and we believe that human beings have public buildings and state-funded hospitals. seemed to defend moral freedom, but do similar needs and share common values. If the Roman Catholic church truly believes little to cultivate moral responsibilities. What 6. The role of women. No doubt the in freedom of conscience, she asked, why about defending high values, such as the single most provocative issue of the dialogue is it not more sensitive to the rights of non- family, he asked, maintaining that the church was the rejection by the humanists of the Catholics? Father Rodé said that the crucifix believes that the dignity of man is based on church's views on women. The very fact that expresses the "cultural heritage of European the belief in the Judeo-Christian God. four humanist women were present vividly civilization" and he does not think that a Lydia Blontrock, Harry Stopes-Roe, and dramatized our conviction that women are dissenting minority should be offended by others affirmed that humanism, too, ex- equal in dignity and value to men and should it, particularly if a majority found it accept- presses high ethical values. However, hu- be treated as such in a democratic society. able. Removing crucifixes, he said, would manists do not believe in moral absolutes, Lily Boeykens complained that the church offend the majority of the Belgian popu- and reject the role of the church in defining has consistently opposed full equality for lation. morality in transcendental terms. We believe women, and that its conception of the The Belgian Cardinal Godfried Danneels in cultivating moral growth and moral in- nuclear family is archaic. The traditional claimed that he was not aware that nonbe- telligence. The Catholics said that they family no longer exists in modern society, lievers were offended by official displays of accepted the humanist emphasis on happi- she said, as women are playing an increas- religious symbols, but appreciated their con- ness and social justice here and now, but ingly important role in the economy; yet the cern. It is not the church that inspires these asked how one could be moral without divine church seeks to impose an ancient patern- symbols, he said; they express an old cultural sanctions. Rob Tielman replied that there alistic model and to insist that the father tradition and are condoned by the majority. are hundreds of humanist counselors in the is the head of the household. It also opposes Blontrock, however, was not satisfied with Netherlands who specialize in moral educa- reproductive freedom and has battled this response, for it contradicted the views tion and seek to cultivate moral growth; at against birth control, abortion, and volun- expressed at this dialogue about respect for times we simply differ with the church on tary sterilization. Furthermore, though the rights of nonbelievers. At this point, what is right and wrong. I pointed to the many couples suffer from infertility, the Professor Poulat interrupted. He too appre- great philosophical tradition—from Aristo- church continues to oppose artificial insem- ciated Blontrock's sensitivities, but pointed tle to Kant and Mill—that demonstrates that ination. Thus the church impinges on the out that, as the director of social sciences ethics can be autonomous and that a kind right of privacy in that it does not allow at a secular educational institution in France, of practical moral wisdom can be developed; women control over their own bodies. he moves in an intellectual milieu dominated indeed, St. Thomas Aquinas, who depended The Catholic participants remained large-

Winter 1988/89 49 ly silent on this point, for the European press n the Saturday evening before the final tion and that it was highly unlikely that it had just reported that Pope John Paul II O day of the dialogue, the humanists would publish the dissenting views of had issued a new document on the status prepared a statement of the results of the humanists. Lily Boeykens later likened their of women. This statement claims to defend meeting at a dinner party at the home of situation to that of members of the com- "the dignity of women," but it narrowly Nettie Klein, secretary general of the IHEU. munist party, who need the approval of a restricts their role in the Roman Catholic This was drafted by Rob Tielman and modi- central committee for their every move, and church and in secular society, and denies fied at dinner, and it was to be presented are disciplined if they deviate from the party them the right to be ordained as priests. The to Cardinal Poupard the next day. line. In any case, we appreciated the Catholic pope's statement draws heavily upon quo- We had hoped that the Vatican repre- participants' predicament. tations from the Bible. Although it is sentatives would accept the statement, but Despite our differences, the Roman intended as a response to the women's when I presented it to Cardinal Poupard on Catholics and the humanists who partici- movement, it is unlikely to garner much Sunday, he read it hastily, began crossing pated in the dialogue were searching for support from feminists, for it asserts that out phrases, and expressed his displeasure some common ground, and we found it in "women must not appropriate to themselves with it. When I informed him that there was a cordial atmosphere of give and take. male characteristics contrary to their own to be a press conference later that afternoon, The statement that we agreed to should feminine originality," and states that the he responded that the Vatican repre- not be viewed as a binding "New Concordat" search for sexual equality should not negate sentatives present could only speak for the between humanists and Catholics; surely it the substantial differences between the sexes, Secretariat for Nonbelievers, not for the will not end our differences. Nonetheless, it especially in terms of the woman's role as entire church. Though the humanists, he is significant, and we look forward to future mother. The pope does not specify which added, were of course free to attend a press dialogues. In my view, the Roman Catholic "male characteristics" he fears women might conference if they so desired, they would not. church is under a state of siege and is look- take on, nor does he define "feminine The cardinal continued to revise the ing for allies. Cooperation by humanists will originality." Most offensive, however, is his statement throughout the day, with his col- depend, of course, on whether the church statement that "the feminine identity emerges leagues Rodé and Carrier. After much nego- is ever willing to revise its entrenched moral from a woman's relationship to a man." tiation over the wording, we finally agreed doctrines, and whether it implements in Commenting on the Biblical exhortation, the to a statement that more or less summed practice its professed beliefs in freedom of pope says, "Husbands, love your wives. In up the key points of the meeting, and conscience and democratic human rights. this love there is a fundamental affirmation expressed the desire of both sides to continue for the woman as a person. This affirmation to dialogue in the future: Notes makes it possible for the personality to develop fully and be enriched." He states Representatives of the Vatican Secretariat 1. The main papers delivered at the 1970 dia- logue were published by the humanists under the further: "When we read in the Biblical for Nonbelievers (Pontifical Council for Dialogue with Nonbelievers) and the title A Catholic! Humanist Dialogue: Humanists description the words addressed to the International Humanist and Ethical Union and Roman Catholics in a Common World, Paul woman: 'Your desire shall be for your (IHEU) convened a very creative and suc- Kurtz and Albert Dondeyne, eds. (Buffalo, N.Y.: husband, and he shall rule over you' (Genesis cessful dialogue on the topic "Religion and Prometheus Books, and London: Pemberton Books, 1972). The Roman Catholic church did 3:16), we discover a great and a constant Humanism in Public Life," in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, from September 30 to not publish the papers. threat precisely in regard to this 'unity of 0ctober 2, 1988. 2. Rudolf Bultmann, a German biblical scho- the two' which corresponds to the dignity The Vatican and IHEU delegations lar, advocated demythologizing the New Testa- of the image of likeness to God in both of agreed upon the usefulness of having dia- ment and reinterpreting it in existential terms. logues between Roman Catholics and His works include History of the Synoptic Tradi- them." tion (1921; tr. 1963) and the five-volume Kerygma This papal document demonstrates per- Humanists, to stimulate mutual under- standing and cooperation. Both delega- and Myth: A Theological Debate (1948-55; tr. haps better than anything the basic point tions are in favor of all institutions which 1953-62). of contention between Roman Catholic doc- respect human rights and which respect 3. Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1988. different conceptions of the world. They 4. Interestingly, this statement was recently trine and humanist values. The church con- contradicted by Pope John Paul II when he tinues to draw upon a theological conception affirmed that the state has no right to impose religious or anti-religious norms, rebuked Catholics and criticized theologians who that had roots in a patriarchal agricultural but on the contrary must respect the free- have dissented from the Catholic church's teach- and nomadic society. Since it believes that dom of conscience of persons and of ing on contraceptives, saying they "make void groups. the cross of Christ." its Truth is divinely inspired, it becomes very "When Paul VI defined the contraceptive act as Both delegations recognize the impor- difficult to readapt to the modern world. intrinsically illicit," the pontiff said, referring to the tance of defending human rights. They "Humanae Vitae" encyclical issued by his predeces- Humanists, on the other hand, wish to deal expressed the desire to continue dialogues sor two decades ago, "he meant that the moral norm with the realities of post-urban technological in the future. does not admit exceptions: No personal or social societies where the role of women has circumstance has ever been able, is able, or will ever changed markedly, as they are no longer One final issue was raised: Should we be able in itself to ordain such an act." confined to the household, but are out in jointly publish the papers and transcripts of Speaking at a conference on the topic, the pope the world defining their own autonomy. The the dialogue? The Vatican officials seemed said that they are wrong who accept the idea that their conscience can establish moral principles. church's position on the role of women is disturbed by this suggestion, saying that "You can't say that a member of the faithful thus open to profound criticism. The hu- though the humanists certainly could do has carried out a diligent investigation of the truth manists at the dialogue realized that they what they liked, they could not guarantee if he doesn't take into account what the would make little headway here, since the that they could publish the papers or tran- magisterium teaches; if, availing himself of any Roman Catholics present could say nothing other source of knowledge; if, in doubt, he fol- scripts, and indicated that they would not. lows his own opinion or that of theologians in opposition to the pope's newly issued We understood full well that the Vatican instead of the teaching of the church."(New York declaration. is a highly centralized authoritarian institu- Times, Nov. 13, 1988)

50 FREE INQUIRY