Queensland
Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]
Legislative Assembly
THURSDAY, 25 JULY 1889
Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy
Civil Service Bill. [25 JULY.] Petitions. 805
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Thursday, 25 July, 1889. Petitions-grants to schools of art.-Seizure of Pollard at the Port of llrisbane.-:lfotion for Adjournment seizure of pollard at the port of llrisbane. Formall\1.otions.-Suspcnsion of Standing Orders. Licensed Auctioneers Act Amendment Bill first reading.-Ann Street Pre"'byterian Church Bill-second reading.-Tru:stee Bill-committec. llrisbane Temperance Hall Bill-committee. l\'Iess'i.~Ct~ from the Legislative Couucil-Croydon branch railway extcnsion-Sa11dgate-Cabbage-tree Creek extension-:Jielbourne street extension Totalisator BilL-Supply-opening of committee. Ways and 1\Icans.-Appropriation B1ll No. !. Brisbane Water Supply Bill-third reading. Fedcral Council of Australasia-Address to Her :M:ajcsty.-:\iines Regulation Bill-consideration of Legislative Council's amendments.-Adjournment. The SPEAKER took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock. PETITIONS. GRANTS TO SCHOOLS OF ART. Mr. STEVENS presented a petition from the School of Arts, Beenleigh, having reference to the endowment now granted by the Govern ment to schools of art, and praying that the House would afford such relief as it might think 80fl Motion jo1• Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Motion for Adjournment.
fit. The petition was similar to those previously was described as "seventy bags of cross seconds presented on the subject; and he moved that it flour." The entry was made on the shipping be received. receipt, and the company's clerk assumed, on Question put and passed. passing the entry, that ten bags went to the ton as is usual with flour, and passed the entry for Mr. MURPHY, on behalf of the hon. mem seven tons. Ten sacks were carted on the 23rd ber for \V arrego, J\!J r. Casey, presented a petition April to the company's store, and the balance from the Clermont School of Arts, of similar was left on the wharf till t.he 2nd May. Surely purport and prayer; and moved that the petition it is common sense to suppose that if the company be received. had intended to defraud the Customs they would Question put and passed, have carted it away at once. After the seizure Mr. L UYA presented a petition from the was made, letters were obtrtined from John Dunn members of the School of Arts, South Brisbane, and Co., the largest millers in South Australia, of similar purport and prayer; and moved that and J ames Gillespie and Co., of Victoria, stating the petition be received. that the article is known in the trade as " cross Question put and passed. seconds" or "fluff flour," and can be made into household flour by re-milling and dressing, but is SEIZURE OF POLLARD AT THE PORT often used by bakers for mixing and dusting, Ol!' BRISBANE. and is largely shipped to the French settlement of New Caledonia for the French convicts. The COLONIAL TREASUREH. (Hon. W. l!'rom my own knowledge I can say that the Pattison) said: Mr. Speaker,-On Tuesday statement made by the hon. member for War last, when I laid on the table of the House the wick, that the company had previously imported papers relating to the recent seizure of pollard seconds flour and sold it for pollard is utterly in Brisbane, I said that, if the hon. member for untrue. Warwick so desired, I would have them printed. The hon. member has expressed that desire, and Mr. M ORGAN: I never made any such state I therefore move that the papers be printed. ment. The SPEAKER: I preoume there is no objec Mr. W ATSON: It is in Hansard. tion to the motion being put without notice. Mr. MORGAN: I refer you to the report of Mr. WATSON said: Mr. Speaker,-On my remarks. account of these papers having been laid on the Mr. W ATSON: When the papers are printed table, I wish to say a few words. As a director they will conclusively show that this company of the Queensland Agency Company, Limited, I never before passed a single entry for seconds am in a position to state that the company has flour. I will now read the letters we received:- never purchased or imported into the colony a "Melbourne, 25th June, 1889.
single bag of flour, either first or second quality, "The liianager1 Farmers' Produce Company, Melbourne~ bran, or pollard, or any product of the miller ; "DEAR SIR, that all flour, bran, and pollard with which they "In reply to your inquiry as to the actual term or have had anything to do has been consigned to definition given by this mill to the seventy sacks goods them for sale on account of the shippers · that delivered by us to the s.s. 'Burwah,' on or about the the seventy bags in question, called '' sec~nds," 12th April last, we have to say that it is called 'fiuff were a consignment from the Farmers' Produce flour,' an inferior or secondary quality of flour used by some baker8 for mixing, or by others for dusting when Company of Victoria; and that the paying of bread making. duty or not made no pecuniary difference to the "In conclusion we have to state that no one who Queensland Agency Company, as the profit, if knows anything of the trade, nor any expert well up in any, arising from not paying the duty would go the manufacture of flour, could call it pollard. to the cons1gnors. "vre are, yours respectively, The SPEAKER : The hon. member is rather " JA?l-fES GILLJ<;SPIE AND CO., out of order. The question is that the papers be "per JAMES GILLESPHi, printed ; but it appears to me that the hon. n Managing Director." member's remarks have more to do with the subject to which the papers refer than the printing Then there is a letter received from Mr. John of them. Dunn :- "The Queensland Agency Company, Brisbane. Mr. W ATSON: I have no objection to the papers being printed. H DJ,:AR SIRS, " \t,.. e beg to acknowledge yours of the 6th instant, The HoN. SIR T. MciLWH.AITH: The re cro~3 seconds, aud in reiJlY beg to say there is a leave. of the House having been obtained, the marked ditierence between cross seconds and pollard. questwn that the papers be printed should go as 'rhe former can be made into flour by being p::tssed a formal motion. through a pair oi smooth steel rollers and then silk diCssed. 'l'lle returns from cross seconds should be The SP:EAKER: Leave was not given that 9l) per cent. of flour, but pollard has not the substance the motion should go as f(mnal, but that the and cannot be classed as anything but an offal, whereas question should be put without notice. It is cross seconds is considered to be tlour in a rough the practice when Ministers lay papers on the state." table to let the motion for printing them go as I may simply conclude, Sir, by stating that one though it were formal, but the motion is not of the officials of the Customs called at our office absolutely formal. I understand that the hon. on Saturday morning, after 11 o'clock, and member for Fortitude V alley does not wish to demanded to know where the ten sacks had gone continue his remarks at present. to. He was informed by our manager, Mr. Mr. WATSON: No. \Vatson, that if he would c:tll on Monday morn Question put and passed. ing he would get full particulars, as Saturday was a short day and they were very busy. I consider MOTION FOR ADJOUENMENT. that the Customs authorities were very officious, and rather exceeded the bounds of duty in the SEIZURE OF POLLARD AT THE PORT OF BRISBANE. manner they went about their business. The Mr. W ATSON said: Mr. Speaker,-I wish to value of the goods was only £25, and if we had say a few words more on this question, and I attempted to bring an action against the Govern shall conclude with the usual motion for adjourn ment it would have cost us £50 or £60. We ment. The only information the Queensland would certainly have gained the case if we had Agency Company had was the shipping receipt gone to law. I move the adjournment of the and the letter of advice, wherein the consignment House. Motion for AdJournment. [25 JULY.] Motionfor Adjournment. 807
Mr. MORGAN said: Mr. Speaker,-I have market, but it has been nsed elsewhere in con no desire to take up the time of the House, siderable rtnantities. It seems to have been new more especially as the papers are about to be in the Brisbane market. As the hon. member printed, and hon. members, after perusing them, for Fortitude Valley said, the stuff was lying can form their own conclusions ; but I would on the wharf for ten days, and that shows there like to say, in reply to the hon. member for was no intention to defraud the revenue. The Fortitude Valley, Mr. \Vatson, that I did not Customs officers could have irr_;pected it during charge that company on whose behalf he has that time, and there appears to me to have been been speaking this afternoon, with having per no need for detcccti vcs in the case. However, it sistently evaded the C1ustoms Duties Act of 1888. seems that snspicion was raised and the matter I referred to a common report on the subject, was submitted to an exp~rt, but I wish to men but did not vouch for the accuracy of that tion, Sir, that this expert was a miller in Queens report. vVith regard to the importation of land, who would be interested in keeping such so called seconds flour, which is said to contain 90 an article out of the Brisbane market, so that the per cent. of household flour, I cannot under Queensland millers would have a greater opening stand people sending here for sale as pollard an for their Qneensland manubctured produce. article containing 90 per cent. of marketable When the company was informed about this, they flour. A sample of that flour or pollard which asked that other experts might be allowed to was seized by the Customs authorities was sent see the produce and they also showed to the by the seizing officer to Mr. Charles Hayes, who Cnstoms authorities the letter which has been is, I believe, recognised as one of the best read by the member for Fortitude V alley from authorities on the products of wheat in this colony, Dunn and Co., who are the largest millers in and this is the opinion which he gives- South Austnlia. They pronounced this to be an article supBrior to pollard. They described " City Roller :\iills, pollard as merely an offal, and that no flonr could "Albert Street, Brisbane, 22nd ~!ay, 1889. be obtained from it in re-milling. They have "DEAR SIR, been in that 11ne of business for many years, "I have examined the sample you sent me for my opinion. I pronounce it to be the ordinary pollard o! and should certainly be authorities on the commerce. subject. They stated plainly that 90 per cent. 1 ' Faithfully yours, of household flour conld be obtained from this "0. E. HAYE"." article by re·milling and silk-dressing. That shows at once that this article cannot be classed I think that is a sufficient answer to the defence as pollard. That evidence of Dunn and Co. is set up that this is seconds flour. I have no desire supported by the evidence of Gilles12ie who sai.d to proEecute this matter further. I am quite the same thing, and who has been m the habrt prepared to let hon. members read the papers and of supplying the trade with this kind of stuff. judge for themselves, That, I think, is about It is used for common bread and for cheap the fairest way we can deal with the matter. I seamen's biscuit. I believe that since these have no irrterest in bringing the matter forward letters were received by the company the repre beyond a desire to prevent a repetition of this sentatives of Dunn and Co. have waited practice of importing dutiable goods free-a npon them and explained that they ship practice which is calculated to do an injury to the large quantities of this "cross seconds flour" wheat-growers of the colony, to New Caledonia to be used at the penal The COLONIAL TREASURER said: Mr. settlement at N oumea, and large quantities are Speaker,-The hon. member for J<'ortitnde also sent to New Zealand. I think it would Valley, Mr. Watson, said he thought that the have been only a fair thing for the Cnstoms Customs officials exceeded their duty. I think Department, when they found there were con they did rather the reverse. I think the firm flicting opinions upon this matter between should be rather grateful for the merciful view experts, to have allowed it to go to arbitration. the Customs Department took of the matter. I The company asked that it might be dealt with paid great attention to the correspondence, and by arbitration, and the Customs authorities sent was satisfied to approve of the Collector's recom a reply to the effect that the company might mendation that the pollard be forfeited. I take it to a court of law if they liked, There arrived at the conclusion simply on the ground was no reason why they should take a matter of that I thought from the correspondence that the that kind to a court of law. They were merely company were not the actual owners of the consignees, and very likely had no authority stuff; that they were acting simply as agents, from the consignor to go to law in the matter, and that is the reason for their being let off with and they had no reason to believe they would be the penalty of forfeiture rather than a fine. As reconped any expenses they might be put to by the hon. member for Fortitude Valley complains going to law. As the article was of very little of the action of the Customs on this occasion, I value, about £35, they did not think it advisable can assure him and all others, that in like cases to take that course. Some persons blame the there will not be any forfeiture, but that in all company because they allowed the goods to be instances the full penalty allowed by law will be ronfiscated, and look upon that as an admission enforced. of the offence with which they have been Mr. GRIMES said: Mr. Speaker,-I think charged. I am snre that any person interested all who have any regard for commercial morality in commission agency business w01rld have taken will r~gret that there has been any necessity just the same course. \Ve have the hon. mem for laymg these papers on the table. I think ber for Bulimba, the hon. member for 'l'oowong, that common report, rumour with her hundred and several other members in this Honse, tongues, inference and insinuation have made engaged in commission agency business, and I this case far worse than it really is. I have gone am sure they wonld have taken no other course through the papers, and I cannot see that they under similar circumstances, and what happened snstain the charges made against this firm, and I to the company two months ago might happen am sure, if the hon. member who moved for to any of those gentlemen to-morrow. How the papers thought that they would sustain could the company get to know that this consign the charge, on perusing them he must have mentwas not flour? They passed their entries upon been somewhat disappointed. \Ve have no the shipping receipt and letter of advice in all good evidence in the papers that this stuff was faith, and their snbsequent Mtion showed their imported for the purpose of defrauding the re bona fides, and proved that they had no intention to venue, It appears to be an article that it has defraud the revenue of the colony. They had not been usual to import into the Brisbane no idea that the stuff was not as described in 808 Motion for Adjournment. [ASSEMBLY.] Ann St. Presbytm•ian Church Bill.
the bill of lading; if they h~d, they would have member of it. It is distinctly laid down in removed the stuff from the wharf at ouce. The "May's Parliamentary Practice" that it is the very fact that they allowed it to remain on the business of the Speaker to interfere when any wharf for nine or ten dayo must show that hon. member is out of order. there was no intention on their part to defraud Mr. W ATSON said: Mr. Speaker,-! beg the revenue. I am sure the hon. member for leave to withdraw the motion. Warwick was straightforward in moving for these papers, but I cannot say so much Motion for adjournment, by leave, withdrawn. for those who prompted him, for they would not have been so exceedingly anxious to FORMAL MOTIONS. allow these common reports and rumours to The following formal motions were agree have a free course. I think, in this matter, to:- there is a little of what may be called "trade envy" or "trade jealousy." 'l'his firm is By Mr. HYNE- running upon the lines of small profits and That there be laid upon the table of the House a return showing the areas of timber reserves in the quick returns, and we know there is sometimes colony, and the localities of such areas. a feeling of enmity shown towards such firms something in the same way as trade unions will By Mr. SMYTH- deal with a man working for smaller wages than 1. That the Stafford Brothers Railway Bill be referred they think he should. I think that feeling has for the consideration and report of a select committee. 2. That such committee have po,ver to send for per been at the bottom of the information supplied sons and papers, and leave to sit during any adjourn to the hon. member fur Warwick. I am sure that ment of the House, and that it consist of .Messrs. no disinterested person rea~ing the papers can Melior, Sayers, O'Sullivan, Barlow, and the mover. come to any other. conclusiOn thn,n that the company had no intention whatever to defraud SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS. the revenue. I speak as a disinterested party, On the motion of the COLONIAL TEEA as I am neither a director or shn,reholder of the SURER, it was resolved- company. I have done business with the That so much of the Standing Orders be suspended as company in times past to a large extent, in will admit of the immediate constitution of the Com consigning my produce to them, n,nd if I had mittees of Supply and Ways and Means. and of the report reason to believe they could be guilty of the ing and adoption of resolutions therefrom on the same offence with which they have been charged, I day on which they shall have passed those committees; should certainly remove my business from them. also of the passing of an Appropriation Bill through all I have known the managers of that company for its stages in one day. manyyears-I have known one of them from LICENSED AUCTIONEERS ACT AMEND a boy-and I am sure they are incapable of doing such a thing. MENT BILL. Mr. TOZER said: Mr. Speaker,-I think the On the motion of lVIr. BARLOW, the House general verdict of this House upon this debate in Committee affirmed the desirableness of intro will be, by those who have not seen or heard ducing a Bill to amend the law relating to what is contained in the papers, that those auctioneers. persons who excuse themselves too readily, in FIRST READING. fact accuse themselves. On the motion of Mr. BARLOW, the Bill was The HoN. P. PERKINS,said: Mr. Speaker, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and the -I do not wish to sn,y a word about the com second reading of the Bill was made an Order mercial aspect of this case, but I wish to know of the Day for Friday, the 16th August. if, when you pulled up the hon. member for Fortitude Valley, you did so because your atten ANN STREET PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH tion was directed to him? BILL. The SPEAKER: I do not quite understand SECOND READING. the hon. member. I checked the hon. member lVIr. REEt:l R. JONES said: Mr. Speaker, for Fortitude V alley when he was speaking to In moving the second reading of this Bill, I beg the motion for the printing of the papers, to draw the attention of the House to the law evidently under the apprehension that he was respecting Presbyterian Churches prevailing in speaking to the subject of the paper;. The hon. New South Wales, which I have referred to in member then desisted, and the question of print the preamble. In 1836, at the instance of Sir ing the papers was put and agreed to. Then the Richard Bourke, then Governor of New South hon. member moved the adjournment of the \Vales, an Act was passed to provide for the House in order to discuss the subject to which building of churches and chapels, and to provide the papers refer. for the maintenance of ministers of religion in The HoN. P. PERKil'\S: What I asked, Sir, that colony. That measure was followed in was whether any other hon. member had called the succeeding year by Acts relating to the your attention to the conduct of the hon. mem Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church, ber for Fortitude V alley, and as I understand the Presbyterian Church, the W esleyan Church, from your answer that no member of the House and other Protestant denominations. It is interfered, I desire to direct your attention to obvious that the idea which influenced Sir the ruling of Mr. Speaker Lenthall, when Richard Bourke in' introducing these measures Charles I. came with 500 soldiers to arrest was to provide ministers of religion for the whole Mr. Hampden in the House of Commons. ·His colony, and that when that was done the answer to him was, "\Vel!, your Majesty, the disestablishment of all religious bodies should Speaker has neither eyes to see nor ears to hear, take place. In this colony we have disestablished except as directed by this House." all the Churches, as has also been done in New The SPEAKER : The hon. member is out of South Wales and other colonies. The Act order in addressing such remarks to the Chair. relating to the Presbyterians is a'!- Act of If any hon. member wishes to dispute the ruling S William IV. No. 7, which came m to force of the Chair he should do so when tho decision to in 1837. That was an Act to regulate the mode which he objects is given. I will point out to the of appointing trustees of churches connected House that if we were to closely follow the practice with the Church of Scotland, which was then of the House of Commons the Speaker would the Established Church of the Presbyterian have been much more strict in this House than body. It was afterwards found that there were he has been since I have had the honour to be a a number of persons who, while adhering to the Ann Street Presbyterian [25 JULY.] Church Bill. 809
doctrines of the Presbyterian body, did not wish "3. I have respectfully to request, therefore, that you to be governed by the law relating to the Church will have the goodness to give instructions that the of Scotland in New South Wales, then called trust deed be made out simply for the Presbyterian the Presbytery of New South ·wales in connec Church, Ann street, Brisbane. tion with the Church of Scotland, and an Act "4. I beg also to inclose a copy of tbe letter I re was passed, which I do not see in our general ceived from His Excellencv's Government of the 14th statutes, in the third year of the reign of her June, 1860, appointing trus1:.ees for the said grant." present Majesty, regulating the affairs of Pres It seems from the evidence of the Hon. A. C. byterian Churches which did not constitute Gregory, who was then Surveyor-General, that themselves as such under the Presbytery of instructions were given that no grant was ever New South \Vales of the Church of Scot to be made out for any PreBbyterian Church ' land. That body afterwards enlarged itself unless it was under the auspices of the Synod of into a Synod of Australia in connection with Australia in connection with the Church of the Church of Scotland, and being so con Scotland. Now the Synod of Australia in con stituted was recognised by an Act passed in the nection with the Church of Scotland has ceased fourth year of the reign of her present Majesty. to exist for twenty-three years and more. It The first church established in Brisbane was a has been abolished in New South Wale", where small church which afterwards became extinct. they have a General Assembly of the Church of But in 1851 a congregation of Presbyterians of all Scotland, and there is no such body in existence denominations of that body constituted them in this colony. The Presbyterian Church is now selves, and were presided over by a minister until governed by the General Assembly of the Presby 1856, when the congregation was taken charge terian Church of Queensland, who, I believe, are of by the Rev. Charles Ogg, a Presbyterian registered under the Religious Institutions Act, minister of the Free Church of Scotland, who and have power to hold land. But according to was not under the jurisdiction of the Synod the evidence of the Rev. Charles Ogg, they did of Australia in connection with the Church not take over any land belonging to any other of Scotland ; but belonged to the Synod of church which comes under their denomination. the Church of Eastern Australia. He, in You will also see, Mr. Speaker, that Mr. Ogg, 1856, became the minister of the Presbyterian and the members of his congregation through Church of Brisbane, as it was then called, but him, protested against the grant being made to was afterwards denominated the Ann Street Pres them in the way it is. The grants were issued byterian Church. In 1856, at the request of a upon trust for the erection of a church, in one properly instituted meeting of the church. he case, a school-house in the other, and a manse or made an application to the New South ·wales dwelling-house for the minister, under the super Government for a grant of land, for the pur intendence of the Synod of Australia in connec poses of the Ann Street Presbyterian Church. tion with the established Church of Scotland, That application, as will be seen from the " in conformity with the provisions of the said appendix, was acquiesced in, but the land they Act." That is Sir Richard Bourke's Act relating had selected turned out to have been reserved to Presbyterian Churches. Mr. Ogg was asked for some other purpose. Ultimately informa why they did not apply to Parliament for a Bill tion was received from the Department of W arks, to amend the title, but he said the church was in 1858, that the Executive Council had approved too poor, that they had not funds for the pur of a grant of land in section 26, North Brisbane, pose, and consequently the matter has been for the purpose mentioned in the application. held over until the present time-until they found At a meeting of the Ann Street Presbyterian they cannot legally appoint new trustees in place Church it was determined to pay for the removal of those who have died, resigned, or ceased to be of a public pound which was on the land; and on members of the church. Therefore, they ask for the 5th May, 1859, the Government Resident, this Bill to be passed, Anabling them to appoint Captain "Wickham, gave a receipt tn the Rev new trustees. It seems that a church was built Charles Ogg for the sum of £45 paid by him for on the land, but it was afterwards burnt down ; that purpose. Hon. memberd will see that the a new one was built, and they now seek for Ann Street Presbyterian Church, presided over power to enable them to dispose of this. The by the Rev. Charles Ogg, actually paid money site, which I believe is situated at the corner of for the land-that is shown by the letter of the Adelaide and Creek streets, is now unsuitable for Under Secretary for Lands in his letter dated the purposes of a Presbyterian Church, a dwelling the 15th February, 1859. The Ann Street for the minister, or a school house in connection Presbyterian Church body erected a schoolroom therewith. For those reasons they now apply on the land as the first step, and it was occupied for this Bill, and I trust I have made it apparent by a teacher for some time, until it was leased to to hon. members that they have a just case for the Government for educational purposes, the asking for it. The Bill, after the recitals, asks Government paying rent to the church body for that the land should be ~ested in Alexander it. The deeds of grant were never issued for the Anderson, vVilliam J ones, J olm McLennan, land during the time that Moreton Bay formed Alexander Muir, and Thomas Cochrane, upon a portion of the colony of New South Wales; trust for the purpose~ of the said trust-that is, but on the 7th September, 1861, deeds of grant for the purposes originally intended. Then were issued. As soon as the Rev. Charles Ogg there are the usual clauses about the meaning of came to under&tand that this was so, he wrote to " the trustees," power to sell or mortgage ; how the Surveyor-General of Queensland the follow sales may be made; trustees may convey; ing letter, which will be found on page 17 :- mortgage may contain power of sale ; trustees "Brisbane, 25th June, 1862. may lease; lease may be surrendered. The Bth HSIR, clause points out the application of the pro "Understanding that the trust deed for the land ceeds of the sale or mortgage money, which granted to the Presbyterian Church here has been must be for the purposes of the Ann Street begun to be made out as if the said church were in con· Presbyterian Church, for which the land was nection with the Synod of Australia, I beg respectfully originally granted. Then there are clauses to inform you that the Presbyterian Church of this for the application of income and profits ; that place never was connected with the above synod. the trustees may buy other lands, and "shall "2. It was simply for the Presbyterian Church here, hold the site or sites to be purchased as aforesaid without mentioning any synodical connection whatever, that I originally applied for and obtained the grant, and upon trust, to permit the same and all buildings for which I paid the condition-money to the Govern thereon erected, or to be erected, to be for ever ment, as will be seen from the inclosed receipt of hereafter appropriated and used as and for a Captain Wickham accompanying this letter. church, school-house, and minister's dwelling· 810 Ann Street Presbyterian [ASSEMBLY.] Clurch Bill.
house respectively, and for no other purpose The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH said: Mr. whatsoever." Then there is provision as to how Speaker,-I do not know anything of this new. trustees may be appointed, and that the matter more than appears in the evidence ; and receipts of the trustees shall be a good discharge. I think it is rather unfortunate that it was I trust, Mr. Speaker, I have made out a fair not investigated by the select committee again, claim for the passing of this Bill. The land was especially as last year the suggestion was made originally granted for the purposes of this church that it was not as fully inquired into as it might and the Bill provides that the proceeds of thi; have been. As far as I understand the matter, land, if sold, shall be devoted to those special the contest is between the Ann Street Presby purposes. terian Church and the general body of Presby The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS (Hon. terians in the colony. There is no doubt from H. M .. Nelson) said: Mr. Speaker,-! am not at the evidence that the Ann Street Presbyterian all satisfied with regard to this Bill. I think it Church applied for this piece of land, and that would be well for the House to be more c~reful, it was granted upon their apvliuntion. When perhaps more careful than we have been m the the grants were made out they were in the ~ast, with regard to undertaking the responsibili ordinary form u~ed at that time, the Church ties connected with private Bills of this nature. being described as a church under the superin There is no doubt that if we adopt the principles tendence of the Synod of Australia. That was of this Bill we shall be undertaking a very grave the only body, I suppose, of which the officers responsibility, a responsibility that it appears to of the department knew anything ; but I me we should hardly be called upon to take. understand that there was no such synod at vV e ?annat get rid of that responsibility by that time ; so that those words are inapplic referrmg the matter to a select committee and able. The intention was to give the land simply adopting their report. I think' it is for the purpose of erecting a church, a school our duty to examine and see whether the house, and a minister's residence for that select committee have really done their duty particular Ann Street Church, which was under and made full inquiry into the whole matter. I stood to be part of the general Presbyterian may mention that the select committee appointed body. But the grant is defective; and I do this session to investigate the matter did not take not know what remedy there is in a case of this any evidence, but simply adopted the evidence sort, except to come to Parliament. I do not tak~n last session, and upon that brought up see how they could go into court, except to bring thmr report. The amount of their labours last an action against the Crown, for the rectification session consisted in examining three witnesses of the deed; and what materials can the court one being the person most intere.,ted in th~ have to rectify the deed? Not more than we have matter, the other the late Surveyor-General, the certainly. Another difficulty is that the property Hon. jl.. C. Gregory, and the third the repre· was given for the express purpose of erecting a sentative, so to speak, of the objectors to this Bill. church, school-house, and minister's residence, and It will easily be seen from the evidence that the for no other purposes whatever; so that they would title to this land is to some extent in dispute have no locus standi in a court of justice. It and in a case of that kind I think it is not a fai; appears that the land has not been used for the thing to ask this House to decide the matter. It purposes for which it was granted, and is therefore is more a question for the Supreme Court. liable to be forfeited. That is a matter in which relief can only be given by Parliament. Nobody The HoN. Sm S. W. GlUFFITH: No one wants to forfeit the land and take it away because seeks to dispute it in the Supreme Court. The the church has been put somewhere else, and the objectors are the only persons who could take land has been used for other than the purposes ex any action of that kind. pressed. A court of justice, however, could control The MINISTER FOR RAILWAYS: If them even in this application to Parliament. If the we pass this Bill we will not give them the general body of the Presbyterian Church desires opportunity to do so. It is attempted to be made to assert the right to the property for general pur out that this deed of grant was issued in error. poses of the Church, they can apply to the court to Now, the constitution of the Presbyterian Church prevent thPse applicants going on with the Bill. as every one knows, I suppose, is such that n~ That is a very common form of proceeding. congregation stands in an entirely independent But they have not taken any steps of that sort; position ; it cannot be a Presbyterian Church so that the matter stands in this way : The land unless it is connected with somePresbyteryorsoll'.e was asked for by the Ann Street Church; their General Assembly. This case, therefore, required application was granted, and they have had that the governing body of this Presbyterian possession of the land ever since ; but instead of congregation should be recited in the deed of grant. putting up a church, a school-house, and a minis The one that was so recited was the Church ter's residence, they put them somewhere else, called the Synod of Australia connected with and have erected buildings on the land, the rents the Church of Scotland. There was such a of which they have applied to the purposes of church at one time, but it has lapsed; and as the Church-the minister's stipend principally. far as we are concerned it is now represented by Now, the question is: 'What is to be done? the Presbyterian Church of Queensland. That Something must be done ; and, as far as I can see, Church is incorporated, and can hold property the only body that can do anything for them and sue and be sued ; and the proper course for is Parliament ; and I think they are perfectly us to take would be to get the governing body of right in coming here. If nohody else interferes, that Church to advise in the matter, and if we ought to deal with the matter and do necessary to hand over the dealing with the pro what is manifestly just. It is said that it is perty to them. They are capable of dealing with not just to give them a right to the property it, and they are the parties upon whom the free from the control of the general synod, and responsibility should rest, and not upon this that is where I feel a difficulty. As far as I House. It does not appear to be a proper time know, the synod have not interfered. Why did now, at this late hour, to come and say there was they not appear before the select committee ? an error in the deed. If there was an error it ought to he rectified by the substitution of some An HONOURABLE MEMBER: They never had a other Synod, Presbytery, or General Assembly; chance. but I do not think we should be justified in The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH: The hon. asserting that the property being dealt with is member forgets that this Bill was brought in vested in this one congregation, under the control after a month's notice, as required by the Stand· of no Presbyterian body. ing Orders, and anybody who objected had 11 Ann Street Presbyterian [25 JULY.] Church Bill. 811
right to come and be heard. If the Presbytery Presbyterian Established Church, and they say desired that they should have some sort of con that the grant was a special grant to a Church trol, they should have put forward their claim under the superintendence of the Synod of to the select committee, and stated in what form Australia, in connection with the Established they wished that control to be given. I under Church of Scotland. The only relief that Par stand that last year some objectors appeared, liament can give is to hand over the land to the but I do not know whether the synod appeared Established Presbytery of Queensland. or not. If the House is not prepared to pass the Mr. McMASTEit said: Mr. Speaker,-As a Bill in its present form on that ground-that member of the committee I have heard the there ought to be some control exercised by the evidence which has been given, and the people general body of the Presbyterian Church-then who are asking for the land are the varties who the proper thing would be to refer the Bill back are, in my opinion, entitled to it. I happened to to the select committee for the purpose of hear have been a member of that congregation at the ing the synod, and very likely the committee time that application was made for the land. would come to the conclusion that they ought to have controlling powers-that the property The HoN. SIR T. MolLWRAITH: Why did should be vested in trustees, subject to the you sail under false colours ? general rules of the Presbyterian Church, or in Mr. MoMASTER : I have never done so, and any other form desirable. The matter is in such I shall prove it to the hon. gentleman. When a condition that Parliament ought to interfere, this congregation, which was under the charge of but there is not sufficient information before us the Hev. Charles Ogg, was established in Brisbane to enable us to feel that we shall be safe in acting they had no church 'at all, but worshipped in the at present. I would suggest that the Bill be old School of Arts, in Queen street. Scotch people referred back to the select committee for further who came out to Moreton Bay, finding there was inquiry. They can then sift the matter out and no Presbyterian Church in this portion of New form a conclusion, which will be subject to re South Wales at that time, attended the Rev. vision by the House afterwards. Charles Ogg's Church. All the Scotch people, no matterwhether;they belonged to the Free Church, The HoN. SIR T. MoiLWRAITH said : Mr. the United Presbyterians, or any other branch Speaker,-The question is not, as the hon. mem of the Church, went to worship in this church ber put it at first, in what way the parties can presided over by Mr. Ogg. I did not myself belong find relief, because there is no doubt that it is to the Free Church that Mr. Ogg says he was a only through Parliament that they can find minister of in Scotland. I had worshipped with relief. The question is : Are the varties that the Established Church of Scotland at home, and seek relief the parties to whom the land was when I came to Brisb>1nc I went to worship granted ? Anyone can see that they are not the under Mr. Ogg in the School of Arts. The same body, because they are a body that repudiate School of Arts became too small, because the any connection with the Church of Scotland. congregation was a large mixed one. Applica Why, therefore, should we alter the deeds, and tion was made to the New South \V ales Govern give the land to a hody that never had the grant. ment for this land, and the delay in furnishing a The petitioners last year stated very clearly their title to the land was so great that the congrega objection. They say- tion had to purchase a piece of land. Not " That the said trustees have not observed or per being able to build on the ground applied for formed the trusts and provisions contained in the said deeds of grant or any of them, and in terms of the said until they had a title, they built in Ann street. deeds of grant the said lands have therefore become Hence the congregation continued to worship forfeited to the Crown; in Ann street. Immediately on receiving a title "That the said trustees have granted unauthorised to the land applied for, they built a school leases of the said lands, in contravention of the said that was conducted under the Presbyterians. trusts and provisions, and such leases are illegal and That was carried on for some time until the void; national system of education came into vogue, "That the said trustees have received the rents, pro· and the building was then leased to the Govern fits, and revenue derived from the said lands, and have paid the whole of the same to the said congregation of ment as a State school, and the rent received the Ann Street Presbyterian Church-a church which is was appropriated for carrying out the work of not nor ever has been in connection with the Established the Ann street congregation. At that time there Church of Scotland-in exclusion of your petitioners was no Established Church of Scotland in and all other Presbyterian congregations of the Estab~ Brisbane, but subsequently an application was lished Church of Scotland or otherwise. made by the Established Church of Scotland "The preamble of the said Bill is incapable of proof. for a grant from the New South Wales Govern "Your- petitioners therefore humbly pray that the ment on which to build a church. The grant said Bill may not pass into law, and that they mav be was given, and the Rev. Mr. Buchanan's present heard by their counsel, agents, and witnesses, be~fore any committee of your honourable House to which the church was built on it. The grant referred to in same may be referred against the preamble and the this Bill was given to the Presbyterian Church whole clauses thereof, and in support, if necessary, of of Brisbane-at that time composed of all the such amendments, clauses, and provisions as may be denominations of the Presbyterian Church. If the · required !or their protection. And that such other Synod of the Established Church of Scotland relief may be afforded to them in the premises as to had any claim to the property they did not your honourable House may seem meet. endetwour to obtain a title to it when they vut "And your petitioners 'vill ever pray, etc." their building up on Wickham Terrace. But as and the petition is signed by Colin McCulloch, a matter of fact the Established Presbyterian John Anderson, John Moffatt, Daniel Gunn, Church of Scotland never interfered until a J. R. Allan, John Tulloch, James G. Gal division took place in that church a few years vert, John Laurie, Duncan Macmillan, John ago. When the division took place the Rev. Leslie Gilmour. If relief is to be granted Mr. McCulloch, with some adherents, en it ought to take a different direction alto deaYonred to establish a congregation in the gether, according to my ideas of justice, and building known as the Protestant Hall. Then, that is to hand back the land to the Presbyterian finding that the people who had origin".llY Church. They are the parties who ought to attained the grant were applying to Parliament to have it. Why should P division that has taken place in the Wickham rectify it. He has given a very good reason, I Terrace Church." That is the sum and substance think, why he did not then apply to Parliament of the matter. The established Presbyterian to pass a Bill dealing with the matter, and that is C~urch. is not protcoting against the grant that the congregation were in straits for money bemg given to the people who ask for it. The and could not make the application at the time. I persons who left the \Vickham Terrace Church believe-as a matter of fact, it is in evidence-that established them~el ves as a congregation under the Rev. Principal McCulloch was not himself con Mr. McCulloch, m the Protestant Hall, and that nected with the Established Church of Scotland, gentleman has now left the colony. so that to grant this land to the petitioners would The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH said: Mr. be to give it to persons who have no claim to it Speaker,-I rise to order. I am sitting close to at all. They are simply a body of Presby the hon. member and cannot hear him in conse terians not connected with any Church at all, quence of the conversation going on all round and the congregation brought together in the t?e House. This matter is one involving con Protestant Hall is not connected with the Church Siderable controversy, and it is important that of Scotland. If the evidence is read, it will be we .should hear what hon. members have to say seen that the Church at the time I have refeJ;red on It. to was composed of all classes of Presbyterians, as all Scotchmen when they came here first found The SPEAKER : I must ask hon. members there was only the one church and congregated not to converse audibly. I have endeavoured not at it, and the Rev. Mr. Ogg, finding they were to interfere often with the private conversations in straits for money, applied for this grant. of hon. members, although at times it is quite !m possible for hon. members and the reporters The PREMIER (Hon. B. D. Morehead) said : m the gallery to hear what is being sr~id by the Mr. Speaker,-I think that the better course to be member addressing the House. I hope hon. pursued is that suggested by the leader of the members will bear in mind thr~t, r~Ithough I do Opposition, to refer this Bill back to the committee not often call "order," I have refrained from for further inquiry. I think the contention of the doing so because I thought if hon. members were hon. member for North Brisbane, the Hon. Sir T. a ware that they were interfering with the Mci!wraith, that no case is made out by the member speaking, they would desist from speak evidence why this land should be given to the ing too audibly. Rev. Charles Ogg and the other trustees Mr. McMASTER: Mr. Speaker,-As a rule, I named, is correct ; and besides that there are speak pretty loudly, and I can assure you that it nasty rumours about-and there is no use dis· was difficult for me to keep my words together, as guising the fact-with regard to what has taken I have not the ability which some members of the place in respect to it. It has been said that a Treasury bench possess of speaking while a con secret sale of this land has been made to certain versation is going on around them. I have taken people, and that this Bill is intended simply to an interest in this matter knowing the circum enable the land to be parted with to certain stances under which the congregation applied individuals without being submitted to pnblic for the land in question. I have stated that auction. That is a rumour which I have reason the congregation on vVickham terrace never to believe is correct. The Bill could be altered interfered in this matter until the separation in that respect by compelling the trustees to offer took place some two or three year ago. The the land by auction. Clause 4 says:- Wickham terrace congregation, the Established "Every sale made in pursuance of the powers afore~ Ch~rch of Scotla~d, sent in no petition said may be in one or more lot or lots, and either by a(l'amst the land bemg granted to these indi public auction or private contract." VIduals. They have got their property on That clause, coupled with what I have heard and \Vickham terrace, and I have no doubt that what I have no doubt other members have when they applied for that ground to the heard outside, is sufficient to lead hon. members Government of New South Wales they never to think there is something below the surface intended to interfere with the church that which ought to be opened out. We ought to hear obtained this land before the Established all about it, and that is a very good reason why Church of Scotland had a footing in More the Bill should be remitted to the select com ton Bay. It is not on record, but I know mittee. The Synod will no doubt be aware of t?at seyeral of those who signed this peti what has been said upon the discussion of the twn Wish now that they had not si~ned Bill here, and will be represented before the com it. Why did not Principal McCulloch, ;hile mittee, and we can then get evidence as to minister of that congregation, when the grant whether these rumors are correct or not. was obtained for \Vickham terrace apply to have this money appropriated forth~ \Vickham Mr. BUCKLAND said: Mr. Speaker,-As Terrace Church? The Established Church of one of the select committee appointed by this Scotland has not interfered and does not interfere House to report upon this Bill, I can only say now, but the congregation has been divided we took all the evidence that was forthcoming on and- the discontented ones have sent in thi~ which to found our report. A committee was petition in order to get hold of this property so appointed to deal with this matter last session, as to establish a second Established Church. and they brought up a report, and I say that if Looking at the petition, I think it will be any other Presbyterian body had any claim to admitted there is a good deal of the "dog in the this land, they had full time to pnt it forward. manger" about it. The petitioners say, If we It is evident to anyone reading the petition that cannot get this land, then the committee or the usual notices and advertisements, in com trustees have never complied with the conditions pliance with the Standing Orders of this House, of the grant, and it ought to revert to the Crown. had been published. The petition sets forth :- That is about what they say, and they know "That the said congregation has never been subject very well they have no right or title to this to the spiritual jurisdic~ion of the Synod of Australia in connection with the Established Church of Scotland, land. It is to be regretted that there was but has always been distinct and separate from and an error made in the title deed, but I am unconnected with any other Church or ecclesiastical sure that any hon. member who reads the body whatsoever possessing full independent powers or evidence will see that the Rev. Charles Ogg self-government; and the said deeds of grant were has kept a record of everything connected with respectively inadvertently granted in their present this transaction in a perfectly straightforward form under the belief, on the part of the officers of t.he Government ol Queensland, that the said congregation way, and immediately he received the title deed was subject to the spiritual jurisdiction of the said and saw the error he requested the Crown to Synod." Ann Street Presbyterian [25 JULY.] Church Bill, 813 We have heard it stated by the Premi@r that he for Fortitude Valley, that hon. gentleman says believes this land is under offer to a firm of that the original congregation was a mixed one business people in the city, and that, of course, which used to attend this church, and that they would be unfair, inasmuch as the land should be applied for certain lands. Now it appears that submitted to public auction. That information part of this mixed congregation objects to the la-r:d did not come before the committee, and of being sold. An objection was certainly sent m course we could not report upon it. Clause 10 against the Bill when it :v:1s before the committee of the Bill says :- last year, but the committee does not appea: to "The trustees shall hold the site or sites to be pur have taken any other evidence, and there 1s a chased as aforesaid upon trust to permit the same and diepute. Some say it belongs to the Presbyterian all buildings thereon erectecl, or to be erected, to be for body generally, whilst another portion of this ever hereafter appropriated and used as and for a mixed conareD"ation0 ask Parliament to allow church, school-house, and minister·~ d\velling-house them to do as ~thev like. I think from tbe very respentively, and for no other purpose whatsoever." fact of there being contending parties, the It is evident to anyone who knows the property fact that the petitioners themselves say that the that it has never been devoted to the purpose of deed was issued to the general body inacl ver erecting a church, school-house, and minister's tently, shows that it is our duty to remit the dwelling. The congreg,ction worshipping under Bill to the committee, and as that appears to be the pastoral charge of the Rev. Charles Ocrg the opinion of a great many hon. members, I have in Ann street a church, school-house, move that the motion be referred back to the and minister's dwelling, on land which they select committee. I purchased some years ago. have nothing fur Mr. UNMACK said: Mr. Speaker,-I may ther to say, but I contend that the committee say that I was· a member of the select conlinittee drew up their report upon the evidence before appointed during last session upon this question, them. and the only knowledge whicl; I have upon the Mr. PHILP said: Mr. Speaker,-! think subject is based upon the evidence whwh was from what has fallen from the hon. member for then given. The evidence given by the Rev. Fortitude V alley, that we should be very careful Charles Ogg satisfied me conclusively that the in passing this Bill through the House. It claim he put forward was a bon12 fide one, and he seems to me that the land belongs to the Presby conclusively proved by an unbroken chain of terian body of the colony, and not to one par evidence that he and his congregation were the ticular congregation, and I would suggest that parties to whom the land was originally granted, the Presbyterian body sell the land and build a and who were entitled to the possession of it. I university with the proceeds. sh9-ll make no further explanatory remarks, but The HoN. SIR T. MaiLWRAITH : Hear, I shall read from the evidence given by Mr. hear! Ogg to prove what I have stated. The first Mr. PHILP: I know of my own knowledge qur.-stion I shall read is question 104- that the present body of trustees under Mr. Ogg " Is the congregation of t1IC Ann Street Presbyterian have two other valuable allotments in Ann Church the same congregation to which the New South street, which they want to sell for £18,000, and I VV.. ales Government promised the land? Ye~. It is the think that is quite sufficient to build another same congregation for who, e use I applied to the church. Government of ~ew South \Vales for the land. HAnd the minutes of the meetings called which you Mr. MACFARLANE said: Mr. Speaker,-I have tendered to the committee, constitute a continu cannot sympathise with the hon. gentleman who ous record of the management of their property P has just sat down. I do not think that the land Yes, deddedly so. belongs to the general Presbyterian body, "I believe there have bee:m. scccssions fron1 yonr con because we find from the evidence that the grr::-;ation? Yes; there are alwa:y,:; changes taking place trustees worshipping under the Rev. C. Ogg held in the congregation. the property. "By lllr. Powel': "\Vhat secessions? Parties leaving and parties coming, parties dying, nnd parties cut off by The HoN. SIR T. MaiLWRAITH: They church discipline. have got it under false pretences then. Look at "By 1\:Ir. Shand: There is no donbt that yours is the the title deed. original congregation? No; I have been minister of it Mr. MACF ARLANE : It appears to me that for thirty-two years." if the body had waited till the deeds were issued He then goes on to explain about the meetings and then built upon the land in dispute they which were held, as follows-question 111 :- would have had a title to it, but having built "By J'i!Ir. Power: These meetings that you speak of, upon other land that is where the dispute ynu say were announced to the congregation from the comes in. It seems to me that the remaining pulpit? Yes. trustees wish to resign their trust, as the rest "·were they unnounc.-::d from the pulpits of all the have resigned. While I cannot admit that a Presbyterian churches in the city? No; simply to my Presbyterian church is an independent body as own congregation. some other churches are, the original grant was "By the Chairman: Is it usual to announce these made to this one particular congregation. meetings from all the Presbyterian churches in the city? No ; we do not interfere with other congregations' The HoN. SIR T. MaiLWRAITH: No; it property, nor they with ours. was not-look at the title deed. "By Mr. Power: \Vhen 'vas the second Presbyterian Church established in Brisbane? Exactly speaking, a Mr. MACFARLANE: The Australian Synod small Presbyterian body existed while mine existed. is out of existence now, and it may be said that It was a church formed of three different denominations the Presbyterian Church of Queensland takes the administered to by :Jfr. Bell, who was ordained by place of the synod, but I cannot say that it does. Dr. Lang, and it was held in the old Telcr;raph Ofticc." The HoN. Sm T. l\fciLWRAITH: Then Queotion 136 is as follows :- the grant has lapsed, and it goes back to the " 1Yhen dic1 the Free Church come into existence Government. here? Shortly .1fter the disruption of Scotland-not more than two years after. Mr. MACFARLAN'E: I think that after the " The Church which you 1\ pro' "'nt you call the Free discussion that has taken place, we should remit Chnrch? 1Ye never c'"tllt d it the Free Church. It the question back to the select committee, and ahvavs wLnt under the name of the Presbyterian they can then hear further evidence. Chuich of Brisbane. "These distinctions do not exist in Australia? There Mr. POWERS said: Mr. Speaker,-! think is no such body now in existence. It has been dead 23 this case should be referred back to the com years. I mean the Synod of Australia. in connection mittee. Taking the speech of the hon. member with the Established Church of Scotland. 814 Ann St. Pre.sbJjterian Church Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Trustee Bill. "By Mr. Power: The Free Church had separated from were addressed to and received by him, and the Established Church? In Scotland? they are in his possession. They have a claim u Yes? Yes. to the land, and I, for one, think it is fairly a~d "When was that? In 1843 the disruption took place. honestly theirs, whatever flaw there may b!l m "Is it a rule that the Free Church cannot hold lands or the title, which they now come to us to repair. receive any endowment from the State? ~o; on the contrary, the Free Church laid claim to all emoluments, Question-That the Bill be referred back to the and the body representing the Synod of Eastern select committee-put and po.ssed. Australia got lands from the New South Wales Govern ment whellevcr it chose to ask for them. TRUSTEE BILL. "Rut is it not a rnle of the Free Church that they are not to hold land or receive nnv endowment from COMilfiTTEE. the Government? No; it is no rule Ot the Free Church. On the motion of Mr. TOZER, the House "Is that the rule in Scotland? "'o; they have laid went into Committee of the Whole to consider cla.im to the emoluments, but we have nothing to do this Bill in detail. with the Free Church. There is no rule on the subject." Clause 1-" Short title, extent, and defini· I may say that what is now called the Synod has never laid claim to the land, and seemingly tion "-passed as printed. has no intention of doing so; but an attempt was On clause 2, as follows :- made some years ago by another congregation " (1.) It shall be lawful for a trustee to appoint a who laid claim to this land, but the attempt failed. solicitor to be his agent, to receive and give a discharge for any money or any va.luable consideration or proper~y ('By ):fr. Shancl: Your Ohm·ch has no connection receivable by such trustee under the trust, by permit with the Established or Free Church of Scotland at pre tino- such solicitor to have the custody of and to pro sent? No; they are all independent Churches. Our du~e a deed or instrument, having in the body thereof Jaws set forth that. I can show you that the Church of or endorsed thcreon a receipt for such money, valuable Qucenslancl is entirely independent of anybody wh~Lt~ consideration, or property, and such deed, instrmnent, ever. We applied expressly for the land for the Presby or endorsed receipt being executed or signed by the terian congregation of Brisbane, and I am always ad trustee; and no trustee shall be chargeable with breach dressed as the minister of such. Rule 4 says- of trust by reason only of his having made or concurred " 'That thit" Church asserts to itself a separate and in making any such appointment. independent character and position, possesses supreme "The producing of any such deed or instrument by jurisdiction over its subordinate judicatories, congrega such solicitor shall be sufficient authority to the person tions, and people; and will receive all ministers and liable to pay or give snch money, valuable considera preachers from other Presbyterian Churches applying for tion, or property for his paying o~ giving _the sam~ to admission on an equal footing, who shall thereupon be the solicitor: Provided that nothmg hermn contained come subject to its authority alone.' sha11 exempt a trustee from any liability which he As ministers of our Church they cannot belong to would have incurred if this Act had not passed in case any other, and so also the members of our Church cannot he permits such money, valuable consideration, or pro be members of any other." perty to remain in the hands or under the control of the solicitor appointed as aforesaid for a period longer than Then he speaks of certain action taken by the is reasonably necessary to enable such solicitor to pay Rev. Mr. McGavin :- or transfer the same to the trustee. " 1Ir.l\IcGavin, a minister of the United Presbyterian "(2.) It shall be lawful for a trustee to appoint a Church of Scotland, then arrived and spoke to me of banker or solicitor to be his agent, to receive and give this. and I told him that it was reserved for the United a discharge for any money payable to such trustee Ptcsbyterians. I introduced him to :llr. Petrie, one of ,under or by virtue of a policy of assurance, by per their trustees, and he told tllis body, who had occupied mittincr0 such banker or F:Olicitor to have the custody of it under Mr.Love, to leave it and give it to }fr.lVIcGavin. and to prodnce such policy of assurance with a receipt Tl1cn they endeavoured to get the land that we had signed by such trustee, and no trustee shall b~ char_ge got1 but J.Ir. :J.ilacali~:;ter told thcn1 that they could not able with a breach of trust by rLlson only of h1s having get it. Then they found out that years before a pro made or concurred in making any such appointment: mise had been mane to Dr. Nelson to get a site for a Provided that nothing herein contained shall exempt a congregation of their body-the Synod of Australia in trustee fl'om anv liability which he would have in connection with the Bstablished Church of Scotland. curred if this Act had not passed, in case he permits Tl1e dissentients then joined that Synod, and that such money to remain in tlle hands or under the Synod got the pre' Melbourne to value a property in Brisbane. The Mr. TOZER said it sometimes happened that clause was also retrospective, and would protect a trustee had to do something which was mani· all trustees who bad been guilty of speculating festly for the advantage of the beneficiary. The with trust funds up to the present time. clause provided that if a beneficiary requested a trustee to do a C8rtain thing, that act should not Mr. POvVERS said that when any mortgage afterwards be called into question. company was asked for a loan, the first thing they did wo,s to send the best valuer in the dis Clause put and paRsed. trict to vo,lue the property offered as security ; On clause 7, as follows :- and thttt was what trustees would do under the " (L) It shall be lawfnl for but not obligatory upon a clo,use. They woul'l httve to employ a man trustee to insure against loss or damage by fire any building or other insurable proverty to any amouut whom they reo,sonably believed to be an able (including the amount of any insurance already on practical valuer, and thttt valuer must be in toot) not exceeding three equal fourth parts of the full structed and employed· independently of any value of such building, or property, and to pay the :pre owner of the property. He thought that if the miums for such insurnnce out of the income thereof or word "surveyor" were omitted, they might out of the income of any other property subject to the safely pass the clause. same trusts, without obtaining the consent of any person who may be entitled wholly or partly to snch The HoN. A. RUTLEDGE said he did not income. think there was any fear that trustees would " (2.) This section shall not apply to any building or pro employ any person who merely dubbed himself perty which a trustee is bound forthwith to convey " valuer," because, unless a trustee could satisfy absolutely to any cestui que trust upon being, requested the court that his grounds for believing the so to do." person he employed to be an able practical Mr. TOZER said the clause simply removed valuer were reasonable grounds, he would be doubts as to the trustee's power to insist upon liable. insurance at the expense of a tenant for life. Mr. TOZER said he thought he could remove Clause put and passed. the objections of the hon. member for Barcoo to Clause 8 passed as printed. the clause. It gave no extra powers to trustees, On clause ll-" Commission to trustees"- but removed the antiquated rules which stood Mr. TOZER said the clause wtts copied from in the way of trustees doing their duty in cnn the Settled Land Act. It simply said that if a nection with their trusts. The clause not only trustee worked he should be paid for his work. emanated from Tories in the House of Lords, but had received the consideration and approval Clause put and passed. of the most eminent lawyers in England, and On clause 10, as follows:- had been introduced by a Conservative into the " 1Vhen a testator by his will appoints a solicitor to Parliament of Queensland. The will gave certain be a trustee or executor thereof, and declares that directions relating to the trust, and the clause such solicitor shall be entitled to charge for profes defined the lines on which trustees should sional busin~.: ::.;s done by hiln in relation to the trusts of the will, such solicitor shall not be disentitled to proceed. He accepted the suggestion to leave make such charge by reason only that he is one of the out the term "surveyor"; and moved that attesting witnesses to the execution of the will. 11 the words "surveyor or," in the 53rd line, be omitted. The PREMIER said he did not like the clause, and many others did not like it. He thought the Amendment agreed to ; and clause passed Bill would be quite as good without it. He did with consequential amendments. not think it would be at all a safe thing to allow On clause 5, as follows :- a solicitor to act as trustee and also be an attest ing witness. If the clause were omitted, the Bill H (1.) \.\here a trustee shall have improperly advanced trust money on a mortgage security, which would at would be a better measure. the time of the invt"stmcnt have been a proper inveqt The HoN. A. RUTLEDGE said he had no mcnt in all rc..-:pects, for a le;;,s sum than was actually donbt the clause was inserted in consequence of advanced thereon, the security shall be deemP.d an a recent decision in the Engli~h courts, where it authorised investment for such less sum, and the trustee shall only be liable to make good the sum was ruled that a solicitor who was an attesting advanced in excess thereof with interest. witness should not be allowed to claim charges which he was allowed to claim under the authority <~ (2.) 'l'his section shall appl~r to investments made as well before as after the passing of this Act, except of a will. In country plac~s, perhaps, unscru where some action or other proceeding shall be pending pulous solicitors might so arrange the matter as with reference thereto at the passing of this Act." to become testators under wills. He thought the Mr. TOZER said he might explain the cases clause might be omitted to which the .clause applied Ly putting a case. Clause put and negatived. Under the B1ll a trustee might lend £1,400 on Clauses 11 and 12 passed as printed. real estate worth £2,100. At present, if he lent The House res~med, and the CHAIRMAN reported £1,700 on that property, it would be void alto the Bill with amendments. gether; but under the clause the investment would be good for £1,400, only the trustee would The report was adopted, and the third reading not be able to get an indemnity for the balance. of the Bill was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow. Clause put and passed. On clause 6, as follows :- BRISBANE TE'CI,I[PERANCE HALL BILL, H (1.) Where a trustee shall have committed a breach of COMilUTTEE. trust, vt the instigation or request or with the consent in writing of a beneficiary. the court may, if it shall On the motion of Mr. BUCKLAND, the think fit, and notwithstanrling that the beneficiary may Speaker left the chair, and the House went be a married \Voman entitled for her separate use, into committee to consider the Bill in detail. whether with or without a restraint upon anticipation, make such order as to the court shall seem just The preamble was postponed. for impounding all or any part of the interest of the Clau.ce 1-"Meaning of the society"-and beneficiary in thf' trust Cf:tate by way of indemnity to the trustee or person claiming through him. clause 2-" Society may sell or .mortgage residue of granted lands"-passed as prmted. "(2.) This section shall apply to breaches of trust com mitted as well before as after the passing of this Act, On clause 3, as follows :- except where an action or other proceeding shall be " Every sale made in pursuance of the powers aforeR l~~~!ng with reference thereto at the passing of this said may be in one or more lot or lots, and either by public auction or pl'ivate contract, and upon payment Messagesfi'om the Legislative Council. [25 JULY.] Ways and Mectns. 817 of the purchnse money to the society they shRll convey the land so sold to the purchaser or purcha.ser:.:; thereof,. ToTAJ,JSATOR BILL. and such conveyance shall be valiLl and effectual in law The SPEAKEH announced that he had and equity for aJl purposes whatsoever." received a messo·~·e from the Legi,;lative Council, The PREMIER said he would like to know intimating that that House had agreed to this why the words "or private contract" were used. Bill without amendment. They were very dangerous words to use in any At 7'15 o'clock, Bill of that kind. The land should first of ttll be offered by public auction before any private The SPEAKER "id: In compliance with contract was talked about. the Sessional Order, the House will now proceed wrth the discussion of Govermneut business. The HoN. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH said it would be Letter to leave out the word "either" SUPPLY. in the 2nd line of the clause and insert the words "shall be." OPENING 01!' CO}IMITTEE. The COLOJ'\IAL TltEASURER moved-; On the motion of the PRK\IIER, the clause was amended by the substitution of the words rl'hat the Spe-aker do now leave the chnir, and that "shall be " for the word " either" in the 2nd the House resolve 1tself into a Committee of the Whole to consider the Snllply to be granted to !Ier ~!ajesty. line, and by the omission of the words "or private contract" in the 2nd and 3rd lines of the (~uestion put and passed. clause The COLONIAL TREASURER moved Clause, as amended, put and rmssPd That there be granted to Her .J:Iajesty, on account of Clauses 4 to 8, inclusive, passed as printed. the ~ervice of the year lSS0-90, a sum 1111t exceeding £2,'30.000. towards defra,~'ing the expenses of the variOU8 On clause 9, as follows :- departments and BCl'Yice~ of tllc colony. "'rho society shall hoW the ~aitl 1mrelu1~ed lands 'l'he Hox. Rm S. \V. GRH'FITH said that upou trnsL to pm·mit the ~a me and all hnil(lin;r" tlwreon he presumed that iu the meantime the expendi erected, or to he crPct.Ptl thoP~on, to lJc for ever here after :tppropria,tcd and used for a tcmvcraneu hall, and tme would be on the ba.,is of htst yetlr's suitable bnilding8 in connection therewith, alltt for no E~tilnatf,_,, other purpose '\Vha,tsoevcr." The PREM!Elc: Certainly. The MINISTEH, FOR RAIL \V_\ YS said he The HoN. hm S. W. GHIFFITH said he wish er! to ask if the trust of the new propr •ty would also like to ask when they might expect would be exactly the same as the trust of the to o·et the J<~stimates for the current year, and property which was to be sold. wh~n the Colonial Tr APPROPRIATION. BILL No. 1. that its members should be increased by repre. On the motion of the COLONIAL TltEA sentatives from the different colonies. I would SURER, a Bill to give effect to the foregoing point out that, although up to the present resolutions was introduced, passed throu(';h all time the Council no doubt has done good its stages, and ordered to !Je transmitted to the work, it. has been considered by those gentle Legisbtive Council for their concurrence, by men who represent the various colonies that message in the mual form. the time has come when increased representa ti<'n should he given to each of the colonies. BRISBANB \VATER SUPPLY BILL. That opinion is embodied in the petition to Her :\Iajesty which the House is now called THllm READDW. upon to adopt. The Federal Council in its On the motion of the Hon. Sin T. :\IciL initiation w~s neces~n.rily small in nu1nber, and \VRAITH, this Bill was rend a third time, I think hon. mem!Jcrs who are here and who passed, and ordered to be tl'ansmitted to the have been members of that Council will agree Legislative Council by message in the usual with me that the number is too small now to form. do the more active work that we may expect from them in the future. This proposed FEDERAL COUNCIL OJ<' AUSTRALASIA. incre:tse in the number of representatives of the different colonies was brought about, in Annm;ss TO HEn :MAJESTY. the first instance, with the intention, and The PREMIER said: Mr. Speaker,-I now the succes;;ful intention, of getting South present the Address to Her Majesty, and ask Anstralia to join the Irederal Council. That that it be read by the Clerk. colony has joined it on the understanding that The Address was accordingly read at length by oome increase in the number of representatives the Clerk, as follows :- should be made. I think, Mr. Speaker, it will "MosT GRAcrocs Sovi<:RlUG.:'i, be generally agreed that the acquisition of South "\Ve, Your ~fajesty's most dutiful and loyal sub Australia ha' added strength to the Federal jects, the members of the Legislative Asscml)ly of the Council, and I think it will also be agreed that colony of Queensland in Parliament assembled. beg if this House approves of the action of the leave to approach Your :}lajcsty \vith feelingE= of the Council in the direction indiPated by this deepest loyalty and attaehment. Address to Her Majesty, we shall add still "';fhen,as the 5th section of an Act of your Imperial further streng-th to it. \Ve shall have every PaTliament, intiiuled an Act to constitute a Federal Council of Australasia, provides that 'each colony shall reason to hope that it will become really be represented in the Council by two members. exc-;->pt the Federal Council e>f Australasia, and that in the case of Crown colonies, \vhi, h shall be repre bv giving represePtation on the basis of popula sented by one ·member each;' and also further pi'O tion we shall give additional weight to the vides that Your :Jfajesty, 'at the request of the legis Council, and probably induce the two colonies latures of the colonies. ma.y, by Order in Council, from time to time increase the number of representatives of which have so long held out to join that lH>dy-I each colony:' refer tn New South Wales and New Zealand. "And whereas at the session of the Federal Oounci.l, \Ve have every reason to believe that the held at !lobart, in the colony of Tasmnnia, during the outcome of the action of the J<,erleral Council, months of January and Febl'n:.try. 1889, a seleet com as at present constituted in Tasmania, will mittee of the Council \vas appointed to consider ttnd have that effect, and it is then that we report upon the expediency of amending the constitu shall approach the consummation which I think tion of the smd Council i and the said committee unanimously recommended that- we all wi-;h-that is, that we shall make a great step towards Australasian federation. I think ( a) The nnmlwr of the members of the Council great credit is due to those gentlemen who, ~honlil be incrca~cd: though ~n1all in n1nnber, have done such good (b) r.I.'he inf'rea~o of the number of the meml)ers of work in the direction I h'we indicated, and I do the Council 8honld be limited to the eases ot' eolonieR other than Crown colonies, and should not think that work will be marred or hampered prof~ccd on the bn:-;isnfpopnlation, as follows:- b7 increasing- the representation of the different I. EYery colony having a populatl Jll of not colonies. Perhaps it has been too much, as it more than 100,000 shonld be entitled to \Vere, a< abinet c..:ouncil in the 1neantime, and if two representatives. we can get representation of the different colonies H. Every colony having a }lopnlation of more on the ba,is set down here, I think we shall have than lOo,noo and not HlOl'C tlian 300,000 sul,jects more freely discussed and more fully shoulil be entitled to four rcvrcsentatives. ventilated than we could expect from a few gentle III. Evury colon:v haYing a. vopnlation of more men sitting almost in camem-not absolutely in than 300,000 a.nil not more than 700,000 canw?'a, of course, becJ.use all that passes is n1ade should be entitled to five reprc'ientatives. public-but by w small a body of men-certainly IV. Every colony having a population of more the leading men in the colonies represented-·as than 700,000 should be entitled to six repre sentatives : at present constitute the Federal Council. I do "And whereas the Council unanimously adopted the not think they so fully represent the views of the said recommendations : different colonies as they will do if the proposi "Xow therefore we, the members of the Legislative tion contained in this petition is carried out, a pro Assembly of the colony of Queensland, in Parliament position which, as I have already said, has been asf'embled, do humbly pray that Your 3Iajesty will he unanimously adopt~d by the J<,ederal Council. pleased to make an Ord~r in Council incr~asing the The form of this Address was not entirely approved number of the rcpresentatlVes of each colony 1n accord of either by the Government or by the leader of the ance \vith such recommendations whenever the necesf;ary certiticatcs ure given by the respectiYe Opposition. There was a portion of the report Governors in CounciL of the select committee of the J<'ederal Council ''The Governor of the colony of Qncens.1ancl in Council which we thought should have !Jeen embodied in having certified that. the poonlat.ion or the colony of the Arlrlress ; however, it was found after a good Queensland exceeds lu nnmber 31JO.OOO, we therefore deal of communication between this colony and humbly pray that Yonr .J.:Iajesty ma.,v be pleased to Victoria-the Premier of Victoria, J\lr. Gillies, increase the unmher of the represenmtivcs of the being- chairman of the standing committee of colony of Queensland from t\vo to five." the Federal Council-that other colonies had The PREMIER said: Mr. Speaker -In fallen in with the .form of address now before the movi':g the adoption of this Address, I m~y say, House; and therefore, for the sake of uniformity as wtll be seen from the phra;;eolog-y of the and unanimity, the Government considered it Address itself, that it is the unanimous wish of very mnch better to waive that point rather the Federal Council, as at present constituted, than, by continued correspondence, delay what .Federal Council [25 JULY.] of Australasia. 819 we consider to be a very essential matter. It is, increased ; and that, as there is now an equal I think, clearly proved by the decision arrived at number, it must be equal in the future, but that hy the representatives of the different colonies the number may be three, four, five, or six. that action in thiR direction is r-'sential to the proper carrying on of a council which in the past The HoN. P. PERKINS: Three is not a has done some good work, and which, with multiple of two. increased representation, will in the future do The Hox. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH : Three is immense good to the whole of the colonies. a multiple of two by one and a-half. It is ';'n Though there may be some discussion in important point if there is anything in 1t. reference to details, there can be no dissen One of the colonies ccntemplates raising the tion on the main question. I think tlwre question in connection with t~e Address ; and _if is not a member of this House who is not it does, no doubt, the Irnpenal law officers Will in favour of definite action in a directinn that take it into consideration. I hope this Address will lead, within, I hope, the immediate future, will be adopted by the legislatures of all tl;e to the federation of the colonic, ; and even if colonies this month or next, so that the Order m we have to give a little to get other colonies in, Council mav be made during the present year, that little should be ungrudgingly given, because and a session of the Federal Council may it will tend to very great results, so far as the he held on its enlarged basis early in the future dominion of Australasia is concerned. I following year. If, however, the _oth~r view to think I need say nothing more. Hon. gentlemen which I have referred is correct, It will not be are as well seized of the facts as I am ; and this possible to do that until a new Act has been colony at any rate, having full confidence in the pa.,sed by the Imperial Parliament; but I do not ability and judgment of the gentlemen who anticipate any such delay. That is all I have to represented Queensland at the last conference, say on the question of form, and I will now speak will, I believe, give effect to the opinions they on the que·,tion of substance. I think the pro expressed, and the resolution to which they position now made is a very important one. I agreed. have said beforP, on \ arious occasions h.ere HoNOURABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear! and in the other colonies, that erroneons Im pressions have prevailed in respect to the Federal The HoN. SIR S. W. GRIFFITH said: Council. Some persons suppose that the framers Mr. Speaker,-! rise, of course, for the purpose of the convention of 1883 fancied that they were of snpporLing this resolution. I will say just " fi tmino- the constitution of a body which would word or two as to the form of this Address before occupy"the position of a l<'ederal Parliament like referring to the substance of it. I do not think the Dominion Pa.rlbment of Canada; but that it is absolutely necessary that the addre.. se8 never was the idea. They always maintained that adopted by the different colonies should be a l<'cderal Council or an ·Australian federation, to uniform so long as they all ask Her Maje-ty to do be successful must be one that wPuld grow of it the same thing. Anybody reading this Address self just as all other successful constitutions have will observe, in the last paragraph but one, a re gro;,n. \V e recognised that the time had not quest that Her Majesty will be pleased "to make come for a complete scheme, but we thought that a an Order in Council increasing the number of the beginning could be made, and we thought t~e f?rm representatives of each colony in accordance adopted then was the best form for a begmnmg. with such recommendations whenever the neces I expressed the opinion that there sh.ould be a sary certificates are given by the respective difference in the number of reJJresentatJves of the Governors in Council." The question will occur different colonies, having regard to the difference to anyone: \Vhat are the necessary certificates to in population ; but in that I was. overruled. I be given by the Governors in Council? And do not think it has made much drfference up to there is nothing in this Address to suggest what the present time; but what we ·have found has they are. But the recommendation of the select been that while the Federal Council has been committee adopted by the Federal Council con able to do useful work in the fmm of legislation, tained this paragraph:- which in effect has consisted of such things as " l~or the purpose of ascertaining the number of are usually done by sovereign powers by means representatives to which each colony shall be entitled, of tree~ties, still th It to a cert Mr. O'SULLIV AN : Then the proportion those hon. gentlemen who have given their :>gt>inet Qnee1mland will he all the greater. If views pre,·ionsly, but I am astonished at the New South \Vales ctme in, New South \Vales hon. m em her for Stanley making such a and Victoria will swamp all the other coloni< ' speech ao he has done. I do not think, for put t0gether. orw moment, that he really expre:;sed his own The HoN. Sm S. W. GEIFJ<'ITH: They will sentimentR, or I should be forced to take a much only have twelve out of tweuty·nine. lower view of his intelligPnce than I have at present. \Vlmt is the object of this J<'ederal Mr. O'SULLlVAN: Is this Council to make Council f It is the development of the aspirations laws for all the colonies ; and ' hat will be their of thiR country to becmne a. great nation by functions? \Vhnt will be left for any colony such deg-rees. \V e have had various changes of go as Queensland to do after the work b done by this vernment-from a Crown colony to responsible J<'ederal Council? Queen ,]and will ,,implv be like a govern1uent, and now we \Vi~b to unite the divisional board. Not one of the thPce hon. mem interests of the various colonie3; so that the repre bers who have aclrlrF,sed us h" said what the sentatives of the various colonies may speak with functions of tliis Federal Uouncil will be. \Vi!! the whole strength of the colonies behind them our Supren1e Court go there'! Will our Governor on any national subject. If there is a fault go there ? \V ill onr appc a! courts go there, and connected with our loc,,] parliaments it is that onr State education, find our hospitals? \Vhat the position of the country confine' the attention will we have left? The leader of the Opposition of men, with intellects f1tted for much higher is in great expectation that there will be duties, too much to ]'arochial matters. There is some petty debts courts established at the border. no doubt that the chief dutv that constituent;; 'l'hat will po"'ibly bring about more contention look for from a member of tl)is House is to dis and ill-feeling than if they were not estahli:;hed. charge his duties to his constituents, and the There is no possibility of h>tving federation unless higher and huger duties of a member of Parlia we have reciprocity and equality of taxatiun with ment are very apt to become subordinated to his all the colonies. There is no chance of h>~ving a rlesire to keep in touch with his constituents. central Parliament established in Au,,tmlia. l3nt by the appointment of a body such as this The Ho:-~. Sm S. W. GRIFFITH : Why Federal Couucil, \\ e shall be enabled to speak at not? any •;risis with the voice of the whole country. Mr. O'SULLIVAJ'\ : Not without reci _u present Australia is in but a tentative procity. Supposing we agreed to reciprocity to position. It has arrived at an era of responsible morrow we should be out of pocket by it, n,s we government, but it has not yet arrived at the should be swamped by the other colonies having dignity of an independent nation, and no one freetrade while we have none. Then, again, who is a student of history, or is fit to read the there is the question of railw:1ys. The Qaeens signs of the times, can doubt but that a moment l~nd rail ways are of 3 feet 6 inch gauge, in New will come when it will be neceRRary for Austmlia South \Vales they are of -±feet tl inch gauge, mHl to consult solely her situation as a nation, no in Victoria 5 feet 3 inch, and they would have all matter what ties may bind us previously. 'l'hat to be made uniform in gituge to start with. I is the chief argument in favour of a Federal expected tlwt the hon. gentlemen who have Council. It is perfectly competent for every spoken would have given us the details of the hon. member of this House to be loyal to prr.posal. The Minister for ::\fines and \Vorks the empire under which he exists, but when stated that we would have to make great the moment comes that he has to decide be sacrifices. tween the future of his adopted country and the complicated entanglements concerning the The HoN. Sm S. W. GRH'FITH: Not for political interests of distant parts d the empire, this ; we part with nothing·. there can be but one course bken by every Mr. 0'8ULLIVAN : Our sacrifices WDuld man who is inter as now constituted, and I think the Govern Council? They would simply swamp us if ment have never done better than they did in New South \Vales chose to throw in her influence recognising that the memberR of the J<'ederal with Victoria. I think we CJhould put our own Council are representatives of the colony, and how,e in order, before we attempt any bogus that they are not sent to that Council in their business of sending people down to Tasmania, capacity as members of the Ministrv, but as men as my hrm. friend, the Minister for ::\lines :.nd qu:tlified by their ability and experience to sp~ak \V orks :.nd the leader of the Opposition went for the colony. One repre,,mtative was selected down on a recent ucr,asion. \Vhat report have as a member of the Ministry, and the leader of we of their proceedings? \Vh:.t did they do? this Opposition was selected as the other. That Does anybudy know what measure, bringing places us in the remarkably happy position of :.ny benefit to the people of this country, was dis explaining at once to the other members of the cn~sed by them there? Have they submitted any Council in what capcwity our representative" report? Has it not all appear._d in the p:.pers were appointed-that they were not members of where they dined, and how they went down the any fleeting Governtnent, but repre<..:'3ntatives of H non Hi ver, and to some other places? Is not the whole colony of Queensbnd, speaking for that the way they spent their time? I invite both sides of political opinion in the nmne of the the attention of hon. members to this matter, colony as a whole. And as those two hon. and I say there is nothing in even what the gentlemen spoke for Queensland so must the :Minister fur ::\fines and \Vorks has said, to Council speak in the name of the whole o£ Aus explain, at the present time, what the J<'ederal tralasia. I have not the slightest doubt hut that Coancil is. It is simply a bogus :tff:.ir; it is ultimately New South \Vales will find it expe lmpori:.lism. It sounds well, :.nd somebody dient, as the other colonies have done, t<> join goe::; on a journey down to Tasnutnia, and it gets the Federal Council, I :.m not going for one heralded through the papers th"t he has gone moment to ask whether the Council will :.ttempt down to do so and so. But there is nobodv knows to deal with Customs duties and irritating border belter than the leader of the Opposition, himself matters. The leader of the Opposition men that the hon. gentlernan never went on a rr1ore tioned these matters as what may he termed the idle journey in his life than he did when he went bahy difficulties with which the Council, in its to Ta,;mania to attend the Fedeml Council. He infancy, has to grapple; that is to 'fit them did not earn his salt there, or two guineas a day, to deal with still greater difficulties when they or· even two farthings. The most intellectual mem have those powers ,which will en:.ble them to ber of this House, the hon. member for Burke, ::\Ir. speak as representatives of the whole of the Hodgkinson, made a feeble attempt to reply to the colonies in the Austmlasi:.n group. hon. member for Stanley, but he never touched T)le HoN .. P. PERKIKS s11id : Mr. Speaker, the subject. He never touched any of the points I w1ll not g1ve way to the leader of the Opposi that hrm. member :.llurled to, but he went on a tion or the leader of the Government in my different track altogether. \Ve know that he desire to cement all parts of this colom' :.nd would sooner take up the case on this sid~ of the blend them together as a whole, and -make House, :.nd if he were sitting on this side he Queensland :.n important factor in the British would make a much better speech on the matter. Empire. I :.m just :.s :.nxious :.s either of I think we should attend to domestic affairs, to those hon. gentlemen to d0 that, but they have home politics, :.nd let the older colonies, which both neglected tu tell us what has been :.ccom are much more concerned than we are, :.djust plished by the Federal Council. There have their own difficulties. Later on we can join been three or four meetings of the Council, but them. At the present time I do not think we I do not know what it h:.s done except that are in" position to do so. \Ye are too divided the members were entertained at Government amongst ourselves. \Ye h:.ve tn adjust m:.tters House. \V e got telegrams up occasionally a bout in various directions; the sugar question and their proceedings, but no benefits have accrued various other m:.tten; have to be settled; and I to this colony, so far as I could see, from any of can only say th:.t if we are to be driven into this the visits of the le[J.der of the Opposition to federation I shall take np my hat, pack up, and Tasm:.nia, either while he w:.s leader of the go son1ewhere elRe. Government or while he was the deputy or Mr. MUHPHY said: Mr. Speaker,-I rise plenipotentiary of my hon. friend the Premier. for the purpose of informing the hrm. gentlem:.n \Vhat is the use of our t:.lking nbout federation? who h:.s jnst s:.t down what I understand to he How many members are there in this House the me:.ning of the word " federation." So f:tr who understand the meaning of the word? I as the Austmlian colonies :.re concerned, I think do not. I want to know the meaning of the the term meam;, federating for the purpose of word. Let either the leader of the Opposition laying the foundation of a future Australian or the leader of the Government expl:.in it if Republic. I hope hem. gentlemen will not think they can. I defy them to give a definition of 1 1nean anything disloyal. So hmg as we are federation. \Vhat is the use of talking bunkum united with the British Empire, so long shall we on the flnor of this House :.m! deluding nwmbers? in Anstralia, I hope, be arlmirers of the form of Is it not a notorious fact that the ]'\orthern rmrt government thgreed to. He conoidered it was a cl:ume that defence against out,ide attack, :tnd there ctre shonld be re-inserted in the Bill, ttml he hoped several broo,der questions thttt cttn be dertlt the Council would '"'''ent to it when the Bill was with. I do not think that by establishing this returned to them. Council we shall be weakening the powe" of this Mr. TQI':Ell