Arthur E. Anderson Narrator

Douglas Bekke Interviewer

August 31, 2007 Le Sueur, Minnesota

DB: This is a Minnesota Historical Society Greatest Generation Project interview with Arthur E. Anderson in Le Sueur, Minnesota on August 31, 2007. Mr. Anderson, would you give me your full name, please?

AA: My name is Arthur Edward Anderson. II

DB: Your date of birth? GenerationPart AA: September 16, 1914 at Virginia, Minnesota.

DB: Do you know whether you were born at home, or were you born inSociety a hospital?

AA: I was born in a hospital. Project: DB: With a regular doctor attending?Greatest

AA: Yes. Historical DB: Did you know your grandparents? History AA: Yes. I knew them very well.

DB: They lived in this country then? Minnesota'sOral AA: They lived in this town. Minnesota DB: In Le Sueur.

AA: Yes.

DB: That’s your connection to Le Sueur then.

AA: Yes, it is.

19 DB: Where did they come from and why did they come here? Do you know much about them? Were they the immigrants? Was it your grandparents’ generation?

AA: No. The family started . . . well, let’s begin with Patrick Barrett, who started in Ireland, County Mayo, County Galway, and came here. He had five daughters and no sons. He started in working on the railroad and then went on to some other things.

DB: Do you know about what year it was when he came here?

AA: I don’t, but it was around 1860. Somewhere in there. He had five daughters, and the youngest daughter, Agnes, married Thomas Hessian. And Thomas Hessian and Agnes were the parents of my mother. So I come down from that strain. Now I can give you the names of husbands of the other four and so on but I don’t think that’s material, is it?

DB: No, no. But did your father’s side also come from Le Sueur then? II AA: No. My father’s people came from Sweden, southwestern Sweden, and ended up in the northern peninsula of Michigan. The old man worked in the mines there. He actually worked in the office of the mine. And my father was raised there. HeGeneration went to Partthe University of Michigan and became a mining engineer. He was employed by the Oliver Iron Mining Company, which was a subsidiary of U. S. Steel. He was stationed in Virginia, Minnesota. My mother became a schoolteacher, and taught first at New Prague and then at Fargo. She saidSociety it was too cold there. She went on up to Chisholm, which is close to Virginia, of course, and met my father.

DB: That was a strange place to go if it was too coldProject: in Fargo. Greatest AA: Yes. [Chuckles] There were those of us that looked askance when she told that story. She’s gone now. But anyhow, they got married on the Iron Range in 1912, and I was the product. That is, the first product. I had a sister, too. Historical

DB: And your father was a miningHistory engineer in the iron mines up there.

AA: Yes. And then when I was four years old, he was transferred from Virginia down to Duluth to the head office, and spent the rest of his career in Duluth. Minnesota'sOral DB: And so that’s really what you remember. You don’t remember much of Virginia, Minnesota, or Chisholm, orMinnesota the Iron Range.

AA: Not very much. I can remember when the Armistice was announced. My father was in the Home Guards at that time and was out with his rifle, celebrating.

DB: Was there a big celebration throughout the town, I suppose?

AA: Oh, yes. It was kind of noisy. There were a lot of foreigners there at that time.

DB: Yes. A lot of eastern Europeans, southern Europeans.

20 AA: Yes. Austrians, Hungarians, all kinds of people from that area.

DB: And of course the Austro-Hungarians had been on the other side. They were on the losing side.

AA: The Austrians were, too.

DB: That’s right. When you moved to Duluth, did your parents move to one house and stay there? Is that the house you grew up in then?

AA: Yes.

DB: And do you remember the address?

AA: They continued to occupy the house until they retired and sold it. It was located at 1844 Woodland Avenue. II

DB: Did your mother, once you were born, stop working as a teacher? GenerationPart AA: She stopped working as a teacher when they got married.

DB: And she was fine with that? Society

AA: Yes. Yes, indeed. That was back in the days when married women didn’t work, except at home. Project: Greatest DB: At home. There was plenty of work to be done at home.

AA: Plenty of work at home. Historical

DB: You grew up in Duluth. WhatHistory was your educati on situation like? You went to grade school there?

AA: I started in the kindergarten and went on into grade school, and I went to high school in Duluth. DearMinnesota's old CentralOral High School. Then I went to junior college, and then I went to the law school at the University of Minnesota. Minnesota DB: Okay. We’ll get back to that in more detail later on. In Duluth, when you were a kid, what kind of activities were you involved in? What kinds of play were you involved in as a child?

AA: I enjoyed playing baseball and football and a little hockey.

DB: Were these formally organized sports or were they just things that kids in the neighborhood got together and played? Or was there an organization through the park system?

AA: No. It was just kids who got together and a park program.

21 DB: You got a game together when you had enough people?

AA: Yes. Sometimes we didn’t have enough people and we still played.

DB: In grade school, did you get much homework? Do you remember much about your grade school years? Was school hard? Did school come easy to you?

AA: It wasn’t hard for me. In those days, in grade school, we didn’t have work that we took home. Oh, once in a while, but not very much.

DB: And the kids in your class. Were there a variety of kids in the class with you?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: Were there a lot of immigrant children in the class? II AA: I lived in Duluth. 1844 Woodland Avenue is on the edge of what they call Hunter’s Park, and to the people that lived there it was known as Oatmeal Hill, because many of them were of Scotch descent and born and raised in Scotland. They ateGeneration oatmeal, theoretically.Part So it was called Oatmeal Hill.

DB: So that was the predominant ethnic group in the neighborhood? Society

AA: Oh, yes. Very definitely. Project: DB: Did church play an important partGreatest in your family?

AA: It certainly did as far as I was concerned. My father was not a Catholic. I’m a Catholic. My mother, of course, being of Irish descent, was a Catholic.Historical

DB: So her religious preference dominatedHistory in the family.

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: Did youMinnesota's attend a OralCatholic church when you were young?

AA: I went to the CatholicMinnesota church, but not to a Catholic school. I went to the public school.

DB: Were you an altar boy?

AA: No. Back in those days we didn’t have altar boys.

DB: Was there any conflict in your family between your parents over the religious issue?

AA: Oh, no. No, no. There was no problem.

22 DB: Did the church have activities for young people? Again, we’re looking mostly at the grade school years.

AA: No. Church was on Sunday and on holy days, and as far as activities for young people and that sort of thing, no.

DB: Were you involved in Boy Scouts?

AA: Yes.

DB: Was that an important element in your life?

AA: Yes. I enjoyed Boy Scouts very much.

DB: And what kind of activities did the Boy Scouts involve you in? II AA: For example, they went camping, and they went fishing and hunting. That was about it. And we had periodic meetings, of course. GenerationPart DB: Did you have a good Scout leader?

AA: Oh, yes. Society

DB: And what was he like? How was he effective? Project: AA: Our principle Scout leader, that Greatestis the one that we had the most often, was a gentleman named Silkman. He was a retired captain from the army, and he took us and taught us a little bit about drilling and the things that would be related to the army. We ended up with a drill team that would go to the annual meetings in Duluth, andHistorical we’d generally take the first prize.

DB: Did you become an Eagle Scout?History

AA: No, I didn’t. I was a little short of being an Eagle, and it got to the point where it was no longer of interest to me. Minnesota'sOral DB: You pursued it as far as it was interesting to you and then went on to other things. Minnesota AA: Yes.

DB: But it did provide an important social outlet for you?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: Life around your home. Transportation. Your father had a pretty good job. Did you have a car?

23 AA: No.

DB: You didn’t have a car.

AA: My father and mother didn’t have a car.

DB: Really. So they got around with public transportation.

AA: Until the very end. The last three or four years my father had a car. My mother never had one.

DB: And was that difficult to not have a car? How was the public transportation situation?

AA: The transportation system was pretty good. We had streetcars that were a block away, and I could walk to grade school. That was no problem. I could walk to junior high school, and I took the streetcar to high school and to college. II

DB: When you went to grade school, did you take your lunch to school with you? GenerationPart AA: No.

DB: Did they prepare food there? Society

AA: We came home for lunch. Project: DB: And of course your mother was Greatestthere, so it was no issue. Most of the mothers were home, so when the children came home mom made lunch and that was it.

AA: That was it. Yes. Historical

DB: Did many of the other familiesHistory in the area have cars? Was it common to have a car?

AA: About half of them had cars.

DB: Did youMinnesota's take vacationsOral when you were young? Did your family travel much? Did you get out of Duluth? Minnesota AA: Not a great deal. We used to go to a lake place and spend a week or two weeks or something like that, and I frequently spent more time than the family did in the woods during the summertime.

DB: Just on your own or through Scouting?

AA: Through Scouting and visiting neighbors and all that sort of thing.

DB: And how did you get out to the woods? How did you get there?

24 AA: The place I usually went was a neighbor’s place just a few miles south of Eveleth, and he had a car. He was Charles McCoy. He was an attorney in Duluth, and he was among the first that ended up with an automobile. We would go in his automobile up to the lake. There was a parking lot on the east side of the lake, and we’d take a boat over to the cabin.

DB: Was the cabin was built during the winter when they hauled all the supplies across the ice?

AA: Yes. A lot of it. Or at least the logs were brought in during the wintertime and then put together. My father was active in building the cabin. With his engineering skills he could be quite helpful. He and some of the other neighbors built the cabin and its companion cabins.

DB: So then you and your family were welcome to use them at times?

AA: Oh, yes. Sure.

DB: What was the cabin like? Was it a true cabin? You think of lake homes now.II They’re often bigger than city homes.

AA: I classify them. Cabins are built of logs. Cottages areGeneration very small.Part They may be frame. And then you have houses. Many of the buildings on lakes now are houses.

DB: So this was a true cabin. Society

AA: This was a true cabin. It had one big room and a stove and a fireplace. Project: DB: Let’s talk about your house a littleGreatest bit here, and the type of appliances, the type of things that were in the house for your mother to use. I assume there was probably one day during the week when she did laundry. Historical AA: Yes. At least one. History DB: And it wasn’t like today when you just go downstairs and throw it in the washing machine and then put it in the dryer.

AA: No. TheyMinnesota's had a coupleOral of big water containers, and they had a wringer. That’s what they used to do the washing. Minnesota DB: Did she have to heat the water separately? Did they have a little gas stove in the basement and heated up the water that way?

AA: We had a little gas stove to heat water, but we also had a water heater.

DB: So that made it easier.

AA: So we had hot water out of the faucet.

25 DB: Did she involve you and your sister in that chore?

AA: Very little.

DB: So in your home you had indoor plumbing. You had hot water.

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: All the time. Did you have central heating?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: So it was a fairly modern home for the times.

AA: It was a modern home. II DB: But your father didn’t build the home?

AA: Oh, no. GenerationPart

DB: He purchased it from someone else. Society AA: Yes. A friend of his, who was also an engineer with Oliver Mining, built the home. He had it for a couple of years and sold it to my father when my father was transferred down there. Project: DB: So it was about probably a 1910,Greatest 1914 house then, sometime in that period?

AA: Yes. I would say it was about a 1912 house. Historical DB: But it had all the modern facilities. And it had electricity? History AA: Oh, yes. Yes.

DB: Sometimes they’d build a house and they would put the wires in but the electricity wasn’t there yet, Minnesota'sso they’d alsoOral put in a gas line.

AA: We had the electricity.Minnesota

DB: Did your mother have many appliances in the house to make her life easier?

AA: Not very many. She had the wringer that she used with the washing machine. If you can call it that. She had an iron.

DB: An electric iron?

AA: Yes. And after a while she got a vacuum cleaner. That wasn’t immediate, however.

26 DB: That was a big improvement over the old carpet sweeper.

AA: Wasn’t it though? [Chuckles]

DB: Think about . . . I assume you have grandchildren?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: And if you look in their closets and drawers today, I imagine they’re pretty full.

AA: First, I don’t look. But yes, they’re full.

DB: And you compare that to what you had growing up. What would you typically find in your closet?

AA: In my closet we would generally have some shirts and a jacket and a pairII of pants, and perhaps a couple of pairs of pants that didn’t go with the jacket. And pajamas. We didn’t have much. GenerationPart DB: And that wasn’t unusual. You had the basics.

AA: That’s the way people lived in those days. Society

DB: Did you have special clothes for Sunday? Project: AA: Yes. Greatest

DB: For church? Historical AA: I’d wear the suit for church. History DB: How often would you wear a necktie? Say, for example, if you were going to the movies on Saturday afternoon.

AA: No. Minnesota'sOral

DB: You wouldn’t wear a Minnesotatie for that?

AA: No. If I was going to church, I’d wear the necktie. Going to school I’d wear the necktie. But for Saturday afternoon activities or late afternoon activities after school, many times I didn’t wear the necktie.

DB: But still, think about how often young people wear a necktie today. It’s a rare event. And it was much more common for you.

AA: Oh, much more common. It was much more common in those days.

27 DB: How about when you were in grade school? Did you wear knickers and knee socks?

AA: Yes. Yes.

DB: That was fairly typical.

AA: As a matter of fact, it was quite an event when we graduated to long pants.

DB: And so it was a social status thing? A sign of growing up?

AA: Oh, absolutely.

DB: At about what age did that come about?

AA: With me it was about fourteen. II DB: And that was pretty typical?

AA: I would say so. A lot of times we’d get into the longGeneration pants aboutPart the last year when we were seniors in high school, or a little before that.

DB: I want to go back just a little bit and ask you about something that SocietyI forgot about—you may not remember this very much. But in 1918-1919, there was a huge influenza epidemic that affected the whole world. Project: AA: Yes. Greatest

DB: And lots of people got sick or died from it. Did that affect your family at all or your community? Historical

AA: I had the flu and almost died,History and I’d been unconscious (they told me) for a week or so. On the eleventh day of November in 1918 I heard all this roaring and ruckus and guns going off and celebration. And I came out of this unconscious period that I’d had and woke up.

DB: ArmisticeMinnesota's Day. YouOral woke up for the celebration.

AA: I woke up for the celebration.Minnesota There was this little bed that they had me in. A little metal and iron bed. I was lying there, and I had a comforter rolled around my neck and over me, and it was one of those that they used for children. It had certain images impressed on it from the stories that they were telling kids. The nursery rhymes. And when I came out of this daze that I’d been in, this unconscious period, when all the shooting was going on and the noise and the bells ringing and all that, I looked down and the comforter was red. I was bleeding from the nose. The doctor said actually that was good for me. My mother didn’t think so.

DB: Mothers always worry.

28 AA: Yes.

DB: Coming back up to let’s say the 1920s, did you have a radio in your home?

AA: My father’s hobby was building radios, and he built a number of them.

DB: Did you have to have the earphones on to listen to them?

AA: We used the earphones to listen. I personally wasn’t interested in radios at all.

DB: The reason I ask that is to find out about how your family entertained itself. Many people have told me that before they had a radio in the house they’d get together with neighbors and friends and family and they’d make their own music and they’d do their own entertaining. And when the radios came, that ended. Things changed. They’d sit around and listen to the radio.

AA: My parents were not musically inclined, but they did have a phonographII and they played records. It was one of the old Edisons with the thick record. Then they went on to radios.

DB: The records that they had were the 78-rpm records, Generationthe flat, notPart the cylindrical ones?

AA: Yes. Well, for example, up at the lake we had the cylindrical. Society DB: And you had to crank it to get it going?

AA: Yes. Project: Greatest DB: For entertainment though, was it common to get together with neighbors? Did you have other relatives in Duluth? Historical AA: On occasion we did, but for the most part, no. History DB: Do you remember when your family got the first real radio with a speaker and everything so you could sit around and listen to it? Was that a factor in your life?

AA: My fatherMinnesota's built it.Oral

DB: Earlier the radios cameMinnesota in but you had to listen to them with headphones. But then he later built a radio with speakers that everyone could listen to together?

AA: He was constantly building radios.

DB: So he was always working on that.

AA: Yes. That was his hobby.

29 DB: Today he’d probably be building computers or something. When he built the radio with the speakers did that become a source of family entertainment? Did you sit around and listen to the programs on the radio? You said you didn’t have too much interest in radios.

AA: Not very much. He was interested in the radio, and when we first started the reception was not very good. [Chuckles] And personally I couldn’t get interested in them.

DB: So the serials that were on the radio just never caught your interest then.

AA: No.

DB: What kind of things were you interested in? What grabbed your attention? You said you were active in some sports activities with other kids in the neighborhood.

AA: Yes. I loved to read books. II DB: What kind of books?

AA: Mystery stories. Stories of explorers. Adventure stories.Generation That sortPart of thing.

DB: And books were readily available through the libraries? Society AA: Or, for example, my grandparents gave me a set of Dickens and I read the set of Dickens from one end to the other. That was my principle interest. Project: DB: And this was junior high age probably?Greatest Grade school? Late grade school, junior high?

AA: Oh, I started even before that. Historical DB: Just an avid reader. History AA: Yes. My father tried to get me interested in building radios but I couldn’t really get much interested. Didn’t much care.

DB: We allMinnesota's have our ownOral interests.

AA: Yes. Minnesota

DB: Sometimes they coincide and sometimes they don’t.

AA: I remember one of my Christmases. I suppose I was about eleven or twelve, and my father wrote to all the relatives who gave me presents for Christmas and suggested that they give radio parts. So I had all these radio parts, and then he took me down to the basement where he had a nice little area set aside to work—to build radios and things like that. He had a bench with two big planks in it and a vice, and he’d work there. We went down there and I stayed with him for about an hour and a half and silently stole away and I never came back.

30 DB: Probably disappointing for your dad, but that’s the way it is.

AA: He was definitely disappointed and kind of disgusted with me. But anyway, that’s the way it was.

DB: That’s a common dilemma. What about movies? Were there theaters in your neighborhood?

AA: Not in our neighborhood. We were about three miles away from the downtown area in Duluth, and the movie theaters at that time were in the downtown area.

DB: Did you go to movies very often?

AA: Not very often. It was a treat to go to a movie. But we did go from time to time.

DB: And what kind of movies did you enjoy seeing? You started out with the silent movies. II AA: I liked the Wild West movies, that kind of a movie. And mysteries.

DB: And it started out with a piano or an organ in the front.Generation They werePart silent movies.

AA: Oh, yes. Society DB: And I suppose as an avid reader it was good for you, because you read the lines onscreen.

AA: By the same token, when I was visiting hereProject: at Le Sueur they used to have three movies a week. In other words, they’d change Greatestthe movie three times. My grandfather just loved going to movies, so he and I would go and see all of them.

DB: How often did you come to Le Sueur, and at whatHistorical point did that start?

AA: Every summer. History

DB: Every summer for a certain period of time? Did you stay with your grandparents?

AA: GenerallyMinnesota's I’d be hereOral for a month or six weeks.

DB: That’s a pretty long periodMinnesota of time.

AA: Yes.

DB: So you had almost a second home here, a whole second group of friends.

AA: Oh, yes indeed.

DB: And what kinds of things did you do when you were here besides go to movies with your grandfather?

31 AA: We played baseball. The other childhood games like tag and . . . where you hide out and the others try to find you and all that sort of thing.

DB: What about toys? Did you have a lot of toys when you were a child?

AA: I didn’t have a lot of toys. No.

DB: And that was pretty typical of most of the other kids you knew?

AA: I think so. Yes.

DB: And if you had a toy . . . I know your father was busy making radios and trying to encourage you to make radios . . . but did he ever make toys for you? Were toys homemade? Did your grandparents make toys for you or were they store-bought?

AA: Store-bought. II

DB: And that was true of your baseball mitt and . . .? GenerationPart AA: Oh, yes.

DB: And if you had a mitt was that a treasured item? Society

AA: And something we had to be very careful of. Project: DB: If you lost it, there wasn’t anotherGreatest one to be had?

AA: If you lost it you were in real trouble because you didn’t get another one for quite a while. Historical DB: So the kids took care of things. History AA: Yes, indeed.

DB: You said you played hockey. What kind of skates did you have? Did you have regular skates as aMinnesota's boot, or didOral you have the clip-on skates?

AA: We started on with theMinnesota clip-ons and then we moved to the boots, and when we did that we had the regular hockey blade on or the tubular. It was a sign of affluence, shall we say, if you had the tubular. I had the tubular.

DB: When you were home . . . what kind of things did your mother cook? Was she a good cook? What did you eat when you were growing up?

AA: She was an excellent cook.

32 DB: And what kinds of things did you eat when you were growing up? When we think about Minnesota we think about a lot of hotdishes and that sort of thing.

AA: No. We had like beefsteak or Wheaties or meatballs. Meatloaf. That sort of thing. With potatoes and vegetables to go with it.

DB: Did you usually eat at home or did you eat out in restaurants very often?

AA: We ate at restaurants very seldom. Maybe three or four times in a year.

DB: And when you went to a restaurant was that a big event, usually some kind of a celebration?

AA: Oh, yes. Absolutely.

DB: And you think about restaurants. Even in my lifetime I think back when I was a young man. They were pretty much meat and potato restaurants. There wasn’t all the kindII of ethnic foods that we have now.

AA: Very true. GenerationPart

DB: There might have been a Chinese restaurant. You could get chow mein there. Society AA: No. We didn’t go to any Chinese restaurants. If we went out to a restaurant, we went to Hugo’s Restaurant in Duluth. Victor Hugo was a Frenchman, and he had good food. Project: DB: But it was again pretty much whatGreatest you had at home, meat and potatoes?

AA: Oh, yes. Historical DB: None of the foreign delicacies that are so popular now. History AA: No. We didn’t have any of that.

DB: What about living on the lake on Duluth? Did you get a lot of seafood or a lot of fish? Minnesota'sOral AA: I ate fish on Friday, of course. Minnesota DB: Yes, of course.

AA: Other than that I don’t like fish.

DB: So you ate it when you had to.

AA: Yes. I mean I wouldn’t go to a restaurant and order fish if it wasn’t a Friday.

33 DB: Let’s talk about events in your family. Birthdays. Now you didn’t have very many relatives around, but how would a birthday be celebrated?

AA: Generally speaking, we would have a dinner, perhaps a little more formal than usual, and a cake with candles in it. That was the celebration for a birthday.

DB: Did your mother make the cake?

AA: Yes.

DB: And what might you expect to get for presents for your birthday if anything?

AA: A baseball, something like that.

DB: But not a table full of presents. II AA: Oh, no.

DB: Maybe one thing that became very special. GenerationPart

AA: We didn’t live high on the hog. Society DB: And what about Christmastime? How would you celebrate that? Let’s go back to birthdays for a second. What about your father or your mother’s birthday? Would that be pretty much the same kind of a celebration? Did you try to get anyProject: gifts for them? Greatest AA: No. No.

DB: But was there a celebration for that? Very muchHistorical the same as for you? A cake and . . .

AA: We’d have a cake. History

DB: Christmas. I assume you had a Christmas tree.

AA: Yes, Minnesota'swe did. AndOral one of the great things about Christmas we’d go out in the woods and cut the tree. Minnesota DB: Was that typical that most people would cut their own tree like that?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: There weren’t the lots of Christmas trees around for sale like there are now.

AA: Oh, no.

DB: Did you have candles on the Christmas tree?

34 AA: We had candles at first. Then they came out with lights for Christmas trees and we switched to the lights as rapidly as possible because in those days, and I guess even today, if you have candles you run the risk of having a fire. Now we never had a fire, but my mother was awfully glad to switch from candles to little lights.

DB: How often would you actually light the candles? Would that just be for Christmas Eve or Christmas Day?

AA: Yes. That was just for Christmas Eve.

DB: Just the one time.

AA: Yes.

DB: And did they keep a bucket or water or something near the tree just in case? II AA: No, we didn’t do that.

DB: Just watched it very closely. GenerationPart

AA: Yes. We gathered around. Society DB: And for your celebration would your grandparents come to Duluth? Did you have your aunts and uncles come around or pretty much just your nuclear family? Project: AA: Very seldom would they come forGreatest a birthday or for Christmas. Once in a while.

DB: So it would just be the four of you then with your celebration. Your parents, your sister and yourself. Historical

AA: Yes. History

DB: What about national holidays? The Fourth of July. How was that celebrated? You were probably in Le Sueur for the Fourth of July. Minnesota'sOral AA: Very often I was and one of the great things, of course, was to be able to go down to a store on Main Street here in Le SueurMinnesota and buy firecrackers.

DB: Did your grandparents give you money for that then? Did you have an allowance?

AA: No. I didn’t have an allowance. My grandparents would generally give me a buck or two and I would buy these firecrackers, ladyfingers. The small ones. I steered clear of the big ones. By request.

DB: By request of your grandparents?

35 AA: By the request of whoever I was with. See, sometimes my parents were with me, sometimes it was an aunt or an uncle and sometimes it was my grandparents.

DB: And they knew what was safe.

AA: Yes, they did.

DB: Was there fireworks in Le Sueur on the Fourth of July? Beyond what you created. Was there an official fireworks celebration or a parade?

AA: On occasion. Mostly in more recent days.

DB: So when you were a child there wasn’t so much of that?

AA: No. There wasn’t so much then. II DB: But generally the Fourth of July was a day off, it was a holiday?

AA: Oh, yes. GenerationPart

DB: What about November 11th, Armistice Day? When you were very young the war was still very fresh in everyone’s minds. Society

AA: Generally speaking, Armistice Day, November 11th, was celebrated. Project: DB: And you were in Duluth for that,Greatest because it was during the school year. Would there be a parade? Would veterans come and talk at your school?

AA: What we would generally do is to have someHistorical retired veteran or somebody who was active in the military come and give a little speech. History DB: Would you have it in the auditorium at the school?

AA: Generally we’d just have it in the classroom. It might be that each classroom would have a different speaker.Minnesota's AndOral then as we went along we got to the point where if there was an auditorium in the school then the event was celebrated in the auditorium. Later on, when I went to junior high school, whichMinnesota was a new building, there was an auditorium built right in it and the gathering would then be in that room.

DB: Do you remember Civil War veterans coming in and talking?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: It’s kind of amazing when you think about that. A veteran of the Civil War and you knew them, and it wasn’t an uncommon experience. My father talked about the Civil War veterans

36 coming. What kind of things did they talk about? Do you remember? Especially the Civil War veterans. Did they tell you stories of the battlefield or . . .?

AA: They told us stories of the battlefield. They told us stories of the condition of the slaves and travel stories. Amusing stories. One of the interesting things, when I went to grade school, I’d go up Woodland Avenue and then the grade school was about a block to the west. I’d turn that corner and go west, and there was a house on the corner. The house belonged to one Colonel Eba, who had been a colonel in the Civil War. He would generally come over and give a little speech on appropriate days.

DB: Was that exciting to hear those stories?

AA: Oh, it was.

DB: Filled you with a sense of adventure. II AA: Yes. And it was exciting to see him. He’d wear his old uniform.

DB: Really. Where is that now? GenerationPart

AA: God only knows. Society DB: It would be a real treasure nowadays.

AA: The old boy died a long time ago. Project: Greatest DB: What about Memorial Day? What kinds of activities were involved in Memorial Day?

AA: For us, not a great deal. We didn’t have any .Historical . .

DB: Nobody in the cemetery in DuluthHistory to visit or anything.

AA: No.

DB: And Minnesota'sLabor Day? OralWas that celebrate d at all or just a day off?

AA: We just took the day Minnesotaoff.

DB: Family picnics at all or anything like that?

AA: Just the same way I’ll take Monday off.

DB: A quiet day at home.

AA: Yes. Read my book.

37 DB: A lot of things in transportation systems were changing at the time. You were born in 1914, so airplanes were already flying around, but not very much. Do you remember seeing your first airplane or was it a big thrill to see an airplane? Was that an unusual experience?

AA: I don’t remember seeing the first airplane, but I know that if there was an airplane around it caused some excitement. I remember particularly we had a neighbor across the street on Woodland Avenue who had an uncle—that is, the boy had an uncle who was the father’s brother—and he was in the Air Corps. I remember particularly on one occasion that he and two other army planes flew in, and that caused quite a bit of excitement.

DB: Did they buzz the house?

AA: No, no. They came in and landed. We spend considerable time walking around these planes. Circling them and examining them from a distance and trying to determine how they stayed up in the air and all that sort of thing. II DB: I still can’t figure that out.

AA: But I’ll tell you, it was a matter of very great interest.Generation These threePart planes with the machine guns on them. God, that was a long time ago.

DB: This was probably what, 1923, or 1925, something like that? Society

AA: Thereabouts. I would say probably 1925 . . . between 1925 and 1928. Project: DB: So these were the classic biplanes.Greatest A thin wooden skeleton with fabric stretched over them.

AA: Yes. Historical DB: Flying crates. Did you ever go to air shows? The barnstormers or anything like that? History AA: I never did.

DB: You were about fifteen years old when the Depression hit. 1929. Minnesota'sOral AA: Yes. The reason I’m hesitating a little, I’m thinking of when it became known to me. The Depression hit about that time.Minnesota About 1929. But I didn’t really notice it until a year or two later. Then my father, who up until then was working five days a week and so on, was cut to three days a week and it was a little tight. Things were a little difficult.

DB: How did things specifically change? Did your diet change?

AA: No, the diet didn’t change so much. We perhaps ate a little less and a little simpler type of thing. But it was quite different having my father around all day. He was at loose ends. He didn’t know what to do with himself. I know it was awfully tough on him.

38 DB: But at least he had a job.

AA: Yes. He still had a job.

DB: Was your house paid for by that time or was he still making payments on the house? Do you know?

AA: I don’t know. I would assume it was probably paid for by then. And when we talk about paying for that house, it only cost $3,000. It was a lovely house.

DB: Amazing. But $3,000 was a lot more than it is today.

AA: And it would buy an awful lot more than it will today.

DB: That’s what I mean. Yes. II AA: Amazing.

DB: So at least the issue of losing your house was probablyGeneration not a factorPart and it was probably pretty secure. At least it wasn’t something that you worried about.

AA: No. I didn’t worry about it. My folks didn’t worry about it. They wereSociety worried about income.

DB: Cash flow. Project: Greatest AA: Yes. They weren’t worried about losing the house.

DB: Did your father try to find something else on Historicalthe side?

AA: No, he didn’t. History

DB: And did that cause . . . do you remember, was there stress and strain between your parents having your father around more or the income issues? Minnesota'sOral AA: I think it probably caused some stress and strain, having him around and under foot. But they seemed to tolerate it allMinnesota right.

DB: Did you work when you were young? Did you have a job?

AA: I didn’t have a job until I started mowing lawns.

DB: That’s what I meant. The usual young man jobs. Cutting grass or shoveling snow, that sort of thing.

39 AA: I did both, and at one time I was at the point where I was taking care of six lawns, sidewalks and driveways.

DB: And you just used your father’s lawnmower and shovel?

AA: Either that or the house owner’s lawnmower. Many of them had lawnmowers but didn’t want to push them.

DB: And that was it. It was a push mower in those days.

AA: Oh, yes. That’s the only kind of mower that we had then.

DB: No rider mowers.

AA: Yes. And cleaning off the snow was work—there’s a lot of snow in Duluth. And cleaning off driveways and sidewalks meant shoveling. And shovel we did. II

DB: Let’s say you get a foot of snow and you’ve got to go out and shovel the driveway and the sidewalk in front of the house. What could you expect toGeneration earn for doingPart that?

AA: About seventy-five cents, maximum. Society DB: And was that probably big money though for a kid?

AA: Oh, yes. Sure. Project: Greatest DB: And if you had six of them, that’s six times seventy-five. That’s a lot of money jingling around in your pocket all of a sudden. Historical AA: It didn’t jingle very long. History DB: What would you typically spend your money on? Did your parents make you save money? Did you want to save money or you spent it right away?

AA: No, no.Minnesota's I was imbuedOral with the idea of saving money. One of the things I saved money for was to buy a bicycle. I never had a bicycle. I wanted to buy a bicycle. Minnesota DB: And how old were you when you’d saved enough money to buy the bike?

AA: Oh, I was about seventeen or eighteen.

DB: And how much did the bicycle cost?

AA: I didn’t buy one. I saved money to buy one and then I took a job down here in Le Sueur in the warehouse in the Green Giant Company, and I’d left the money in a book. In the leaves of the book. When I got to the university I was a little short of money. Not an unusual situation, you

40 understand. But I was a little short, and we had the spring party coming up, and I wanted to get some money. I knew I’d gotten my allowance for the month, and I knew I wasn’t going to get anymore. So I called home and asked them to get that book out and send me the money that was in it.

DB: And how much was there? Roughly.

AA: Roughly? About twenty-five dollars.

DB: Which was years of saving?

AA: Yes. And I didn’t get any of it. They couldn’t find it. No. They couldn’t find it.

DB: Did you ever find it?

AA: No. II

DB: It was just gone. GenerationPart AA: I know what happened to it. My father glommed onto it. [Chuckles] Those were the days. He was right. There was no occasion for me to have a bicycle at that time. Earlier, yes. Society DB: Was this a pretty hilly part of Duluth that you were living in? Would it have been hard biking there? Project: AA: Not bad. Greatest

DB: What other kinds of things would you save your money for? When you spent your money, what would you spend it on? Historical

AA: Baseballs, ball mitts. That’sHistory about it. Fishing tackle.

DB: Your parents took care of buying your clothes then?

AA: Yes. Minnesota'sOral

DB: So you didn’t have toMinnesota worry about that.

AA: I didn’t buy my clothes. Nor my meals. I used to spend a little going to the movies and that sort of thing. I was well cared for.

DB: When the Depression hit, did it hit your neighborhood very hard? Do you remember people who lost their homes?

AA: I don’t remember any that lost their homes, but everybody was a little short on cash.

41 DB: Did everyone help everyone out as much as they could? Was it a cooperative attitude in the neighborhood?

AA: I don’t think so. Some of that went on, but by and large the people took care of themselves. Everybody was in about the same position.

DB: Decreased income but no one was really desperate in your neighborhood.

AA: That’s right.

DB: Do you remember going to downtown Duluth and seeing situations in other parts of Duluth that were more desperate? There were a lot of men at that time who had lost everything. Lumberjacks coming out of the woods. Maybe miners coming out who didn’t have anything. Do you remember seeing those men around? Soup lines . . .

AA: I don’t particularly remember seeing them. I knew that the situation existed.II And once in a while we’d hear a story about this, that or the other thing that was even worse than the usual run of things. But it was just kind of a time at which everybody was in the same boat. I know there were those that weren’t eating very well. GenerationPart

DB: But again, people were getting by. In your neighborhood, in your situation, it wasn’t such that people were losing everything then. Society

AA: They were getting by. I think you put that well. Project: DB: And again, you were fifteen, sixteenGreatest years old. I imagine you were busy shoveling sidewalks and cutting grass. Did the Depression affect your ability to earn money?

AA: No. Historical

DB: So people still had a dollar orHistory two to get those things done.

AA: Yes.

DB: WhenMinnesota's you were inOral high school, and the Depression was happening here, did that affect your outlook on what your future prospects would be? Did you have goals and ambitions for yourself when you were fifteen, sixteen,Minnesota seventeen, eighteen years old? Was it just to get through school?

AA: In other words, did I have an objective?

DB: A lot of times young people’s objective is to get through that class and get through that day of school and go see their friends. Some people have a longer-term view but a lot of times that doesn’t come until later. What was your outlook? What was your attitude?

AA: I wanted to be a lawyer.

42 DB: So you knew that. You had a focus.

AA: My grandfather was a lawyer. My father’s brother was a lawyer. My mother’s brother was a lawyer. I thought I’d like law. And you know, the funny part of it is I did like law, and I still like law.

DB: Did they mentor you, in a sense? Did they take you . . . when you’d be here with your grandparents, did they take you to the office and it kind of rubbed off on you or was there discussion around the table?

AA: No. No, there was none of that. I used to go to his office once in a while but only for the purpose of picking up something and delivering it here, there or the other place.

DB: They didn’t really try to work you into it at all. It was just something that you saw and it looked enticing and you decided you wanted to do it. II AA: Yes. And I listened to the stories that were being told, and it interested me.

DB: And coming into high school in the Depression, didGeneration it seem likePart it was an economic possibility for you to be able to go to college? Was that ever an issue?

AA: I don’t think we ever gave up the idea of my going to college. It wasSociety in the family.

DB: So within your family it was always kind of a given that you’d go to college. What were the prospects for your younger sister? She was what, Project:two years younger than you? Greatest AA: My sister was six years and nine months younger than I.

DB: Quite a bit younger then. Historical

AA: Oh, yes. And yes, they plannedHistory to send her to college all the way through school. And she did go to college both in Duluth and then at the University of Minnesota.

DB: And was that unusual for girls in those days? Or if the family could afford it they’d go and that was it?Minnesota's Oral

AA: They all wanted to go,Minnesota and if the family coul d afford it, they did go. And having gotten rid of me, the family could afford it.

DB: And of course there was that age gap in there, so it gave them a chance to recover a little bit.

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: Now when you were in high school with your other classmates, was there a strong work ethic among the kids? Was there a strong desire to achieve and work hard?

43 AA: There was a strong desire and a willingness to work hard on the part of, I would say, about twenty-five percent to a third of the class. Then there was about twenty-five percent or a third of the class that all they wanted to do was get through with it, and then there was the area in between. Or the multitude in between.

DB: The silent majority.

AA: Yes.

DB: Was dropping out fairly common? You hear about a lot of people that would go to school through eighth grade . . .

AA: It wasn’t common, but there were those that did it.

DB: Maybe less so in Duluth or maybe less in your high school. Maybe it was more typical on the Range or in rural areas. II

AA: Yes. Now I remember, for example, one gentleman who was in class with me and he dropped out and went to work. He went to work as a messengerGeneration forPart the . . . what do they call it? The wireless and all that.

DB: Telegraph. Society

AA: Yes. Telegraph union. Anyhow, he kind of disappeared as far as I was concerned for quite a long time, and lo and behold about thirty years agoProject: he bought a store here in Le Sueur and ran the store until he died. [Chuckles] HeGreatest was a good fellow. I liked him.

DB: And for girls in high school it was about the same thing? Historical AA: Yes. We had a number of students that dropped out. History DB: Was some of that tied to the Depression, do you think, or was it just their own personal attitudes?

AA: I thinkMinnesota's it was moreOral their personal attitude, though I’m sure it was influenced to a degree, at least, by the Depression. Minnesota DB: And what work opportunities might there be for them to drop out and look for work? It must have been pretty tough going.

AA: There were jobs like the one that I mentioned for the fellow who was riding a bicycle for the telegraph people. Riding a bicycle and delivering the written messages. He was quite a guy.

DB: What about social life as far as girls? Now when you were in high school was dating a common thing or was it more a group?

44 AA: Dating was not a common thing.

DB: Was it more just a group of friends that hung out together?

AA: At least as far as I was concerned. The group that I was with. Dating was just a little different.

DB: How so? What was the social interaction between boys and girls?

AA: We’d probably put on a suit and it was usually a matter of taking them to a school dance or something like that. It wasn’t a matter where we had a date every Friday night or every Saturday night and that sort of thing. Not like it is today at all.

DB: So when you went with a girl it was a big event?

AA: Yes. II

DB: Some program. Usually a dance. GenerationPart AA: Generally engineered by the girl.

DB: And did the guys go along and dress up reluctantly or did they . . . Societywas there a certain . . .?

AA: They grumbled about it, but I don’t think they were really reluctant. Project: DB: But as far as getting together withGreatest your friends, going to movies or something like that, it was pretty much just a group of friends that would get together?

AA: Yes. And it would generally be boys. Historical

DB: So it wasn’t so much of a boyHistory and a girl linking up and pairing . . .?

AA: Oh, no. There was some of that went on, and the rest of us all looked kind of askance at that. I mean, why were they doing that? And why can’t he come out and go fishing with us? Or somethingMinnesota's like that. HowOral come he has to take care of this girl all the time?

DB: So what was the situationMinnesota when they’d have a dance at the school? The girls went out and danced and the boys stood around the wall and talked or . . .?

AA: No. We used to get out and dance. But some danced better than others.

DB: And where did you learn to dance? Just at these dances?

AA: There’s some question as to whether I ever learned to dance. [Chuckles] No. The only way that I learned to dance was dancing.

45 DB: By doing it, you mean.

AA: Yes. Taking a girl and then, generally speaking, she’d get me out on the dance floor and kind of teach me.

DB: It’s always kind of an odd thing though. Where do the girls learn to dance? Because they always seemed to know, didn’t they?

AA: Didn’t they though.

DB: And you had live bands, of course.

AA: Yes.

DB: And did they come in from outside or were they local bands? What kind of bands did they have? II

AA: Generally speaking, it would be local. GenerationPart DB: And did they consist of a larger group like an orchestra or were they smaller musical groups? Society AA: They generally had at least a half a dozen.

DB: And they’d play the popular hits of the day? Project: Greatest AA: Oh, yes, indeed. And those popular hits of the day were quite different than those of today.

DB: As was the dancing. Historical

AA: Yes, and there was none of Historythat waving their arms and howling like banshees. No.

DB: Foxtrots, waltzes.

AA: Yes. Minnesota'sAnd foxtrots.Oral [Chuckles] Oh, boy.

DB: You graduated from highMinnesota school and you said you went to college in Duluth for a time?

AA: Well, what I did, I graduated from high school and I went an extra half year to high school, and then I went to junior college in Duluth.

DB: The extra half year, was that kind of just a college prep or what was going on there?

AA: I took a couple or three courses that I couldn’t fit into my regular high school.

46 DB: And that wasn’t a problem to just spend extra time in the high school? The school was accommodating to that?

AA: Oh, no. I enjoyed it. No, that was fine. And then in the fall I went to junior college in Duluth. I went there for two years.

DB: And what did you study there?

AA: Pre-law.

DB: And during the summers did you come down to Le Sueur? You mentioned that you worked in a warehouse here or something.

AA: When I completed the two years in junior college, I came down here and worked summers.

DB: This was with Green Giant. It was largely an agriculturally-based communityII and industry here.

AA: Oh, yes. And at that time the Green Giant Company,Generation the plantPart here, was their principle plant. In spite of the fact that it wasn’t architecturally set up to handle the deal. But anyway, this was the principle plant and we produced a lot of product. A lot of product. Society DB: And that agricultural industry, and thus the town of Le Sueur, was somewhat secure through the Depression years? Project: AA: This would be after the DepressionGreatest years, when we were coming out of the Depression.

DB: The late 1930s then? Historical AA: No. It was starting in about 1934, for four years. History DB: Now when you went to junior college in Duluth, what was tuition? First off, was it difficult to get into it? What was the application process like?

AA: No, itMinnesota's was not difficult.Oral

DB: Just go sign up and start?Minnesota

AA: Yes, and pay your tuition. The tuition was $150.

DB: A year? Or a quarter?

AA: A quarter.

DB: That’s pretty expensive though. It wasn’t that bad?

47 AA: It wasn’t bad.

DB: Did that include room and board? Did you stay in a dormitory?

AA: Oh, no. We lived at home.

DB: And your parents paid the tuition?

AA: Oh, yes. Or gave us the money. I don’t think it was $150. I think it was $100.

DB: And did you find the work challenging? Did you find it exciting?

AA: I did. Yes.

DB: Did you have good instructors? II AA: I thought so.

DB: Were a lot of them lawyers that were coming in andGeneration teaching onPart the side?

AA: No, no. They were pedagogues. Society DB: Just instructors. They were teaching it but they hadn’t lived it.

AA: Yes. Now for example, in French and SpanishProject: we had a French woman teaching us. In physics and that sort of thing we hadGreatest a professor. Really good instructors.

DB: But you said you were primarily studying pre-law. Was that work pretty rigorous? Historical AA: I didn’t think it was. History DB: It was enjoyable. It was what you wanted to do.

AA: Yes. And mostly it was polishing off writing reports and writing briefs and that sort of thing. Or Minnesota'sin the alternative,Oral it was a matter of a little chemistry, which I was lousy at. And then there were foreign languages and English. Just about like high school, except it was a little more strenuous. Minnesota

DB: And did you approach it as sort of an eight hour a day job? You’d leave home, get on the streetcar, go to school, spend a day there, do your work and then come home at night?

AA: Usually I’d get home about four o’clock in the afternoon and then I’d study through the evening.

DB: But you spent the day at school pretty much?

48 AA: Yes. Pretty much.

DB: So you did that for two years.

AA: Yes.

DB: And then you transferred to the university in Minneapolis or in Duluth?

AA: In Minneapolis. They didn’t have the University of Minnesota in Duluth then. I transferred to law school.

DB: And this would have been about 1935?

AA: About 1934.

DB: And was it an exciting step for you or was it kind of traumatic to move awayII from home and come to Minneapolis? You were what? Twenty years old now?

AA: I was about nineteen. GenerationPart

DB: And so was that a big adventure for you to move to Minneapolis? Society AA: Not particularly.

DB: You just took it in stride? Project: Greatest AA: Yes.

DB: Did you have any connections here in Minneapolis?Historical

AA: Well, yes, I did. As a matterHistory of fact, I lived over in St. Paul with a cousin of mine. Nellie Rafferty. I lived with her for a while, and then I joined a fraternity and I lived at the fraternity house. Even after I graduated from the university I kept my room at the fraternity house and used it on occasion. Minnesota'sOral DB: Was it difficult to get into the University? Again, what was the application process like? Minnesota AA: Sign your name here.

DB: So there were plenty of openings. It wasn’t an issue.

AA: No. Our graduating class in law school was about one hundred sixty, and now they’re up around five or six hundred. But our classes were quite small, that is, compared with today.

DB: And how was the academic work there? Was it pretty rigorous?

49 AA: Yes, it was.

DB: A lot harder than Duluth or just the next step up?

AA: It was harder and more exacting, and of course directed toward the law. We had good instructors.

DB: Did they have programs, or was it encouraged for you to go and work as law clerks while you were in school or anything like that?

AA: No.

DB: What was the social setting like at school in those days at the university?

AA: I belonged to a fraternity. II DB: That’s what I’m getting at.

AA: Oh, are you now? GenerationPart

DB: What was the life in the fraternity like? Society AA: I enjoyed it.

DB: Was it an active social scene? Project: Greatest AA: No.

DB: Was it very serious? The students were more Historicalfocused and serious about their studies?

AA: We were all pretty serious aboutHistory our studies. And none of us had any money. [Chuckles]

DB: So even if you wanted to do things you couldn’t.

AA: And Minnesota'smost of us didn’tOral want to do all that anyway.

DB: So everyone was prettyMinnesota focused on their studies.

AA: Yes.

DB: That was the point of being there and you were going to do it.

AA: You see, actually most of the maneuvers and wild parties are among the academic students, and usually during their first two years, and we had all that behind us. We were devoted to the idea of acquiring an education, passing the bar, and getting out and making some money.

50 DB: And do you think that the experience of the Depression and the economic hard times there was a motivating force for a lot of the students?

AA: Very definitely. Yes. Very definitely. I think as a result of the Depression days we had a more serious overview on life than they have today. I’m surprised at some of the things I understand are going on.

DB: And did you spend four years at the University?

AA: I did. You see, in those days they had a three-year course or a four-year course, and I elected to take the four-year course because I could get a little better background.

DB: Was there a specific area of law that you were studying?

AA: Back in those days [Chuckles] . . . again, if I can go back there . . . we didn’t specialize in the law. We got a law degree and went out, and frequently the work that we gotII and the call for our services would direct us into a particular phase of law. But we didn’t have the specializing that they talk about today. GenerationPart DB: So everybody got the general degree and then you went out and specialized from there.

AA: Yes. They let the experiences with the general public specialize them.Society

DB: Now when you came to Minneapolis you had a cousin here that you lived with, so you weren’t just coming into a void. You had some connectionsProject: here. What was it like coming to Minneapolis? Was it an easy transitionGreatest coming to Minneapolis and St. Paul? Did it pose any problems for you?

AA: No, no. There was no problem. The only problemHistorical was the transportation to school, and where I was going to eat lunch, and then later on I had the usual problems living. Among other things I was the treasurer of the fraternity.History I got paid for that.

DB: You got a little money there.

AA: A littleMinnesota's bit. Not much.Oral

DB: You talked about gettingMinnesota around. I assume you took the streetcar when you had to travel across the cities.

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: And the streetcars were very efficient and timely?

AA: Yes.

51 DB: And then you mentioned a daily dilemma of where you were going to have lunch. What would you do for lunch? What was the usual routine?

AA: Ordinarily I’d eat at the fraternity house. That was one of the reasons to join it.

DB: And meals were pretty good there?

AA: Yes. We had good meals for breakfast, lunch and dinner. They were good.

DB: And if you went out . . . let’s say you wanted to just go with a couple of friends and get a hamburger or something on Friday night . . . what would that cost you?

AA: It would depend on where you were going. A couple of bucks at the most.

DB: Manageable. II AA: Oh, yes.

DB: As you progressed through the University and graduationGeneration timePart was approaching, did you start actively looking for jobs? Were there legal firms that were recruiting?

AA: We had to go and actively search for jobs. Now there was some recruitingSociety going on, but generally they were recruiting people whose uncle or father was working for the firm or something like that. Project: DB: They had a connection. Greatest

AA: Yes. I had to go out and search for a job. I went back to Duluth and visited some of my acquaintances up there to see if they needed help andHistorical they didn’t. Then I got a call to go up to the Indian Reservation, and I went up there . . . History DB: Which one?

AA: On the lake up there. Minnesota'sOral DB: Red Lake? Minnesota AA: Red Lake. Yes. The lawyer who was there ahead of me had just died. I think of an overdose of alcohol. I met some of the Indians and talked to some of the people, and I figured that wasn’t for me. Then I came back down and went around in Minneapolis. About that time the word came through that one George Havel, who was practicing over in Le Center and was the county attorney, was running for office and he needed somebody to act as assistant county attorney while he was going door-to-door as they used to do in those days. They’d knock on the back door and solicit the vote. So I went to work for him and we established a delightful relationship between us. I stayed with him for about six or eight months and then came over to Le Sueur where I had intended to go eventually, anyway, because my grandfather had practiced here and

52 the family was well known here. So I came over here but spent part of my time as assistant county attorney in the county attorney’s office in the courthouse.

DB: And was that an exciting opportunity? Did you find it intimidating?

AA: No. I found it very valuable. Among other things it gave me an opportunity to find out how the county recorder’s office worked, where the records were. And I’m still in that position. I can go over there. I can go back in the vault and pull the books. I know where everything is. That is very helpful.

DB: Was it helpful to be here with your grandfather?

AA: He was dead then. He died before I came. He died in 1931, and my grandmother died in 1937.

DB: So you didn’t have that connection here then. II

AA: No. But he was well remembered. GenerationPart DB: But your goal wasn’t to return to Duluth; your goal was to go somewhere else?

AA: Oh, absolutely. Society

DB: You wanted to get out of Duluth. Project: AA: I didn’t particularly want to get Greatestout, but Duluth didn’t want me.

DB: You just found better opportunities . . . Historical AA: Much better opportunities down here. History DB: And was that because of the economic situation here with Green Giant?

AA: The plant was part of it, and part of it was that the Depression was over and farming was picking upMinnesota's and there wereOral some other businesses developing. It was a combination of things. I had a lot of relatives around here at that time and I fell into some legal work with them right away. So it was the perfectMinnesota thing for me.

DB: And what year did you graduate from law school?

AA: 1938.

DB: 1938. The future looked fairly bright for you then, with good prospects?

AA: I would say so.

53 DB: And you were single at the time?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: Not married. So in 1938 there are some storm clouds on the horizon, but they’re distant and things look pretty good for you here.

AA: Yes.

DB: Now as you came down to Le Sueur and set up your law practice, you had a lot of connections here. You were a young man and I assume you had a social life. Did you have a girlfriend or anyone that was special in your life?

AA: I didn’t have much of a social life. First, because I was devoted to the practice of law and was busy, and second, I didn’t have enough money to take anybody out on a date anyway. But I did know a lot of young ladies. I’d worked at the canning company for a numberII of years then. Three, four years. And I had met the secretaries, one of whom was one Carolyn McDowell. There were others, too. Then I had a number of relatives in town so that I was not lacking in feminine companionship, but I didn’t spend a great deal ofGeneration time withPart them.

DB: One eventually became your wife though. Society AA: Carolyn and I went around with another group. There were about six couples, and one after another they got married. Project: DB: Pressure was building on you. Greatest

AA: [Chuckles] Most of them were employees down at Green Giant. One evening Carol and I went to the movie together, and afterwards we stoppedHistorical to get a Coke. I can’t remember what place. But anyway, it was someplace there in town. She looked at me and I looked at her, and she said, “All of our companions seemHistory to have gotte n married off.” Then she looked at me again and she said, “Do you think we should get married?” And I said, “Well, I certainly think so, but you know I’m impoverished. I don’t have any money. I don’t know if I can support a wife.” “Oh,” she said, “I’m working and I get ninety dollars a month. We’ll get along just fine.” I didn’t like the idea ofMinnesota's my wife working.Oral It didn’t go well with my ideas, and it didn’t go well with practicing law in a small town to have your wife out working for the canning company. But Carol and I ended up gettingMinnesota married, and she didn ’t work after we got married. She maintained the position of the wife of an attorney.

DB: And you each had housing here. She had her place. You had yours.

AA: We each rented a room. That’s the housing that we had.

DB: Was housing pretty tight here?

AA: No.

54 DB: When you say you rented a room, was it a boarding house situation?

AA: I think of a boarding house as a place where you can eat, too. We just slept there.

DB: But it was a house and you rented a room in the house? Was that the situation?

AA: She rented a room in one house and I rented a room in another house. I was renting a room from a cousin of mine.

DB: After you got married then where did you live?

AA: Then we took a little apartment. A little apartment in the brick house on Ferry and Second Street. It is still there.

DB: When you say an apartment, just to make a comparison, you say an apartment in a house. Was it then a section of a house? We think of an apartment today, it’s rather involved.II

AA: Let’s look at it this way. This was my grandmother’s house, and when she died in 1937, my uncle took the place over and divided it into three apartments,Generation two onPart the ground floor and one upstairs. We had the north one on the ground floor.

DB: So it had a kitchen and everything was there. Society

AA: It had a kitchen and a bathroom and two bedrooms and a living room. Project: DB: And at the time did this seem prettyGreatest nice to you?

AA: It was considered to be a nice apartment. We thought it was, of course. Historical DB: You were thrilled, I would imagine. What kind of a wedding did you have? What was kind of the norm for weddings in thoseHistory days?

AA: That was a kind of a problem, too. Carol’s maiden name was McDowell and they were north Irish and they were not Catholics. I refused to marry her unless she became a Catholic. She got mad, whichMinnesota's she didOral on occasion, and she went home to Illinois to her mother. I later got the story from her mother. She was weeping and telling her mother what a devil I was and how stubborn I was. And she saidMinnesota she had been raised a Methodist and she had no connection with Catholics and didn’t want one. Her mother said, “Well now, Carolyn, you should know this. I’ve never told you, but I come from an Irish family, a south Irish family, and I am a Catholic, only I’ve never been able to practice my religion because there’s no church around here.” Well, that kind of soothed that over and we got married. Then the second thing we ran into, she was taking instruction from the local priest who came out of the army. He retired from the army and then came here and took over the parish.

DB: He’d been a chaplain in the military?

55 AA: Yes. She couldn’t get along with him, and I didn’t blame her, to be honest. I couldn’t get along with him either. So then we went down to St. Peter, and there was a priest down there, one Jimmy Ryan. She got along just fine with him. So we got married down in St. Peter after the Sunday morning Mass, and there were about fifteen of our friends there. We got married and then went up to the hotel and had lunch. That was our wedding.

DB: Did your parents come down from Duluth?

AA: They weren’t there.

DB: Did her parents come up from Illinois?

AA: No. That was back . . . you understand . . . that was back in the days when all the young people were departing for the army, and I was on call.

DB: That’s right. It was 1942. II

AA: Yes. GenerationPart DB: So we’ll come back around to that in a little bit. You opened up your law practice here in 1938. Society AA: 1939.

DB: This is 1942. So you had three years to buildProject: your law practice. Were things a little bit more prosperous at that point? By the timeGreatest you actually got married?

AA: Oh, yes. Historical DB: How long were you actually engaged then? About a year or so? Two years? History AA: I would say for about a year and a half.

DB: So in that year and a half then, from the time you got engaged, the law practice built and you had reachedMinnesota's a levelOral of financial stability.

AA: If you could call it that.Minnesota

DB: It was good enough to get married anyway.

AA: Yes.

DB: Now think about those years. 1939 to 1940. Let’s say late 1941. We won’t go into 1942 because we know what happened in December of 1941. There are some storm clouds on the horizon.

56 AA: Yes.

DB: I realize you’ve got a personal life that was developing during these years. You’re starting to build a law practice and you’re establishing a new home here. But there were a lot of storm clouds on the horizon. Were you paying attention to things that were going on in Europe and Asia? Was the community here paying attention to those things?

AA: Yes, they were. Yes.

DB: And for you personally, how . . .?

AA: Every time they had a conscription, shall we say, every time they took people in the draft, there would be some from town that would go. And of course every time somebody went, it left a hole someplace. Usually with the parents. The war was progressing.

DB: The draft started in 1940-41. The first draftees were going in 1941. So howII did the community regard the draft? Beyond just the parents, because parents are always going to have special concerns when a son is going. GenerationPart AA: My impression is that there were a few people that were opposed to the war. Most of them of German descent. The majority, however, and certainly the majority of the young people, were all in favor of it. They responded. They were either drafted or they respondedSociety as volunteers. Many of them attempted to volunteer.

DB: Now the bombing of Pearl Harbor on DecemberProject: 7th happens. Greatest AA: Yes, it did.

DB: And that changed everybody’s world. Historical

AA: Yes. History

DB: Do you remember what you were doing on December 7th or how you heard about it?

AA: DecemberMinnesota's 7th fellOral on a Sunday, and I had been to church. When I got out of church I heard the rumble and the rumor. Somebody passed the information to me. We all, I think—at least those that I was with on thatMinnesota day and on succeeding days, too—we just felt, well, that’s it. That determines it now. And we knew it was going to be a tough one. And it was.

DB: Your situation. Of course, you weren’t married yet on December 7th.

AA: I was married on the 2nd of May.

DB: Not for a while yet.

AA: Yes.

57 DB: So what were the probabilities of you being drafted?

AA: I tried to volunteer for the Marines and I tried to volunteer for the Navy, and I couldn’t pass the physical. So I sat back and waited until I got drafted.

DB: And when did that happen?

AA: I went into service in the summer of 1942.

DB: Right after you were married.

AA: I knew it was coming. And in the summer of 1942 I got an extension. I think it was for thirty days to clean up my business and get somebody in, which I did. I took off then, if I remember rightly.

DB: You said you got someone to take care of your business. Now did you haveII a partner or how did that work with your legal practice?

AA: There was a lady lawyer down in Mankato, whom IGeneration met in practice.Part She wanted to make a contribution to the war effort and she couldn’t serve herself, so we worked out the deal where she took over my practice while I was gone. It worked very well. Society DB: Now you had just gotten married and you had just rented an apartment and your wife was not working. Your pay as a private in the army was going to be quite a bit less than your pay as a lawyer getting established here in town. Project: Greatest AA: But remember, I was renting from relatives.

DB: So you got a little bit of a break there? Historical

AA: Oh, yes. History

DB: Did your wife go back to work when you went in the service?

AA: No. SheMinnesota's producedOral a child.

DB: So she had her hands Minnesotafull with that.

AA: Michael, my oldest child, was born after I left. But she was busy with getting ready to have the child, and then taking care of the child.

DB: So she had her hands full there and continued to live in the apartment then.

AA: Yes. And you could, you know, in those days you got an allotment for a wife and a child. So I got a little there, and I got paid thirty dollars a month. I kept ten dollars and sent the rest home. [Chuckles] I was living high on the hog.

58 DB: For ten dollars a month. Yes.

AA: Yes. I tell you.

DB: Of course, ten dollars was a lot more then than it is today, but it’s still not much.

AA: It was a great deal more than today.

DB: When you were drafted, where did you go? Did you go to Fort Snelling?

AA: I went to Fort Snelling.

DB: And what was the process there?

AA: They gave me all the usual tests. II DB: Departing here. You had a lot of relatives. Was there a send off?

AA: No. GenerationPart

DB: You just got on the train and went up there? Society AA: Well, it wasn’t quite that way. I got into an automobile and went up there.

DB: Your wife drove you up or friends drove youProject: up? Greatest AA: No, no. There was a group of us that went. There was, I suppose, eight or ten of us that went in at the same time. We were all acquaintances and friends. So it worked out just fine. Historical DB: Now sometimes people would go up to Fort Snelling and then there would be a send off and then they’d be rejected for whateverHistory reason.

AA: They weren’t rejecting very many in those days.

DB: Not atMinnesota's that point. Oral

AA: I did have a physical Minnesotaproblem, and the problem was my eyes. They were afraid that if I ended up in combat I wouldn’t be able to see enough to perform what I was supposed to be doing. Of course, it turned out I could see just fine in combat. No problem.

DB: So you went to Fort Snelling and you were there for a few days?

AA: No. When I went in I applied for the Counterintelligence Corps work. I’d been tipped off by a friend of mine, a lawyer from Minneapolis who came from Le Sueur and had been drafted. He was working on a staff up there at Fort Snelling, and he tipped me off that they were looking for volunteers for the Counterintelligence Corps. I had the qualifications. So I applied for it and

59 while they were checking me out to see whether or not I could qualify, they put me in basic training.

DB: And where was basic training?

AA: Fort Snelling.

DB: Oh, right at Fort Snelling.

AA: Yes. They kept me there. So I finished basic training.

DB: How long was that?

AA: It was six weeks then. The course that I took.

DB: Learning to march, learning to salute. The basics. II

AA: Yes. Usually basic training was twelve weeks, but this was six weeks. When I got through with that they still didn’t know what to do with me, and soGeneration I startedPart over again.

DB: With the application for Counterintelligence? Society AA: No, with basic training. [Chuckles] I was about two weeks into it when they sent me down to Fort Omaha at Omaha, Nebraska, which was a headquarters for the Counterintelligence Corps people. Project: Greatest DB: Now you talked about qualifications for the job. The Counterintelligence Corps was looking for what type of people? Historical AA: Lawyers. I hadn’t picked up languages then. Well, I could speak French and Spanish, but not German. Anyhow, I went downHistory there and I finish ed out the next six weeks of basic training, and they still hadn’t completed everything, and so I started basic training again.

DB: The third time. Minnesota'sOral AA: The third time. Minnesota DB: Was it easier the third time?

AA: It was. The top sergeant called me in, and he was about to retire. He had, I don’t know, twenty-five or thirty years in or something like that. He said, “The captain has a runner and I should have a runner. At my age I shouldn’t have to spend a lot of time going here, there and the other place. You will be my runner. You’ve had enough basic training.” And I agreed with him on that. [Chuckles] Anyhow, I was at his beck and call. My principle duty was to take him out on Friday night. We’d go out of the fort and he would go to the nearest bar. And I would take him there and then he would send me back to sit in his office for the weekend. He in turn . . . I don’t

60 know what he did. But he would turn up on Sunday night looking like the wrath of God. [Laughter] I think of those things now, and there is a lot of humor in it. Anyhow, I ended up in the intelligence school.

DB: How long were you down there, taking care of the wrath of God?

AA: I finished up my third session of basic and that took about a month. Then I got orders transferring me out of Fort Omaha, and I was transferred downtown in Omaha.

DB: Had you received a security clearance and everything by this time?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: That was all part of the check.

AA: They’d gotten all that basic stuff done. Then I took these classes at Omaha.II Downtown. And I lived at the YMCA.

DB: It had been taken over by the army? GenerationPart

AA: Yes. I finished the courses, and that took about eight weeks or something like that. Then I got orders. And I thought I’d be going off with troops, you know, and I Societyhad visions of training for combat. I got transferred to Des Moines, Iowa. [Chuckles]

DB: How intense was the training that you received?Project: Greatest AA: Not very intense. It was mostly lectures and educational sessions. Not so much physical.

DB: But worthwhile? It was good training? Historical

AA: Yes. History

DB: Were the instructors professional? They knew what they were talking about?

AA: Yes. Minnesota'sOral

DB: Because one of the thingsMinnesota . . . you think about how the army was expanding so rapidly at this time. Where do you get the pool of knowledge to create the instructors when you need so many at one time?

AA: I thought we had a good course. It was mostly on how to approach people, interview them and get the information. Do the things that you’re doing right now. And I thought, of course, that when I got the orders to ship I’d be going out with troops.

DB: But you went to Des Moines.

61 AA: I went to Des Moines.

DB: And what were you doing there?

AA: I was running a lot of interviews. I was in civilian clothes.

DB: For security clearances?

AA: Oh, yes. I was in civilian clothes, and I’d travel here, there and the other place. There was a group of us, and principally what we were doing was interviewing new employees who were being employed in defense work. We might call it that, or military supply work. Our job was to talk to them and find out if they were dangerous or not.

DB: You were doing background checks.

AA: Yes. It was quite interesting. II

DB: Did you ever find any questionable people? GenerationPart AA: Yes. Yes, we did.

DB: And how so? How were they questionable? What kind of . . .? Society

AA: They were questionable. They just didn’t like the idea of the United States being at war, and particularly they didn’t like the idea of being vulnerableProject: to draft pr ocess. So that’s why they were taking the job in defense work. ThenGreatest they were exempt from the draft.

DB: So they were possibly pacifists or war resistors. Historical AA: Some of them were pacifists. Some of them didn’t like the idea of fighting Germany. History DB: Would you call them German sympathizers?

AA: Yes, I would say so. They were mostly of German descent. Back in those days, you know, even hereMinnesota's in Le Sueur,Oral for example, over across the river to the west of us there were these German families. In many instances the young people growing up spoke German at home. Their English wasn’t very good, Minnesotaand they weren’t really integrated into the American society yet. Now that’s not true today. But it was then. Now it wasn’t everybody, but there were a few like that.

DB: They were more recent immigrant groups, and the immigrant groups stayed in their own pockets.

AA: Yes. They were interesting people.

DB: So you had a significant percentage then that you were possibly rejecting for security clearance work?

62 AA: We didn’t reject very many. Some of them they had to transfer to a different position.

DB: They couldn’t work in a defense plant or something like that.

AA: Either that or in the defense plant instead of working on something that was vital, something that was very, very important, they got transferred to something that wasn’t so important.

DB: Now you’re in Des Moines. You’re about . . . in those days there were no freeways. You were maybe, what, four hours from home?

AA: Remember, you could only go thirty-five miles an hour then.

DB: Because of gas restrictions?

AA: Yes. And we used our own vehicles, incidentally. II

DB: So you had a car with you down there, you mean? GenerationPart AA: My car. Yes.

DB: From the government? Society

AA: Oh, yes. Project: DB: So were you able to come homeGreatest very often?

AA: What we used to do was to schedule our trips. For example, I spent a lot of time over along the river, and then I would set the thing up so that HistoricalI would go into northern Iowa.

DB: Along the Mississippi River.History

AA: Yes. And I’d go up into northern Iowa, and on Friday night or Saturday morning I would end up there. Minnesota'sOral DB: So you’d work your way closer to home. Minnesota AA: And then I’d skip out and go home for a day. I didn’t do much of that though, I can tell you.

DB: Were you real busy? Was there a lot of work for you there?

AA: Yes. We did a lot of work. Wrote a lot of reports. We had a unit of about . . . there were about eight or ten of us doing this type of work. Every once in a while we’d get the orders through to report for active duty with the troops.

DB: Someone would be gone and a new person would come in.

63 AA: Yes.

DB: And how long were you there? From when to when?

AA: I was there about six months. Yes, about six months.

DB: And then you got orders for something else?

AA: Then I got orders to report out East to the 78th Infantry Division for overseas shipment.

DB: Now at this point, you’re an enlisted man?

AA: No. I’m a sergeant.

DB: But when you were doing investigations you wore civilian clothes. II AA: Yes.

DB: And when you wore a uniform, what insignia did youGeneration wear? Part

AA: I didn’t really wear any insignia. When I came home I had to wear a uniform. And I had a cousin that was living in Blue Earth at that time. She was about seven orSociety eight years older than I, and I left my uniform at her house. I would report in at her house on my way home and change from my civilian clothes into my uniform, and then arrive here in Le Sueur in uniform. Project: DB: But a uniform with no insignia. Greatest

AA: No insignia. Historical DB: No rank. History AA: No rank.

DB: No collar insignia. Minnesota'sOral AA: No indication of the unit I might be in. Minnesota DB: So you looked like you’re still in basic training.

AA: Yes.

DB: Did people ever question that?

AA: Yes, they did. There were those who were wondering what was going on. And I would tell them a wild story. That seemed to satisfy them.

64 DB: And when you’d do an interview did you introduce yourself as Agent Anderson? How were you addressed? How did you discuss your position?

AA: That would depend a good deal on whom I was interviewing. If I thought that I could get better results by indicating I was an agent and referring to myself as an agent, which I was, I would do that. If I thought that would serve better. But otherwise I would keep it pretty much on an informal basis.

DB: So you received orders to report to the 78th Infantry Division, and they were located where?

AA: Out in Virginia.

DB: At what post? Do you remember?

AA: Camp Pickett. II DB: Were they fairly well along in their training and organizational development as a division, or was it just forming? GenerationPart AA: No. I was out there at Camp Pickett for about two or three weeks, and then we shipped out.

DB: So they were well along in their training. Society

AA: They were well along. Project: DB: So where did you fit into the division?Greatest

AA: As I told you a little while ago, I was supposed to be Counterintelligence Corps. You’re familiar, of course, with the work of the CounterintelligenceHistorical Corps. But they ended up, they didn’t have an IPW team and they were short on their civilian contacts. History DB: IPW means Internees Prisoners of War, is that correct?

AA: Not internees. Interrogation of Prisoners of War. Minnesota'sOral DB: So you were working under the Division Intelligence Officer, the G-2? Minnesota AA: Yes.

DB: And you were a sub-office of his office then. How large was your team?

AA: As you know, in those days a division was made up of three regiments, and each regiment had a team. This was something new they were trying, and it worked very well. They had a team of four with each regiment, and then there was a team of five or six back at division. This was something new. Up until that time the CIC, generally speaking, had operated out of division. But

65 they found out that was a bit clumsy. So they went to the other system, and it was a much better one. I don’t know who dreamed it up, but it was certainly worth it.

DB: And were you working with one of the regiments, or were you working on the division level?

AA: I was first with the 309th Infantry and then I was with the 311th Infantry. The three regiments that were with the 78th Infantry were the 309th, the 310th and the 311th. In the Battle of the Bulge, the 309th got kicked around very severely.

DB: When did the division go overseas?

AA: I don’t remember exactly, but it would be in the summer of 1944.

DB: And you went to England first? II AA: When we started out we were supposed to land in Normandy. But when we got over there very close to Normandy, we were on our ships, and the Germans were putting up so much resistance that they though they’d better not put us ashoreGeneration at Normandy.Part So then they took us to England.

DB: How was your voyage over? Society

AA: It was rather rugged. We ran into a lot of stormy weather. Project: DB: Was it a regular troop ship? Greatest

AA: Oh, yes. Historical DB: And you’re still a sergeant at this point? History AA: Yes.

DB: So you’re down below in the bunks stacked up to the ceiling. Minnesota'sOral AA: That’s another story. We ran into this stormy weather and many of the troops got seasick. I didn’t get seasick. So theyMinnesota put me on duty to keep the troops who were supposed to be down in the hold down there so they didn’t come up to heave over the bow, shall we say, or the stern or whatever. They didn’t want them to be washed overboard. We were taking blue water over the bow. I ended up then patrolling around and placating these people who wanted to get out and get washed overboard.

DB: And you had no visible rank at the time?

AA: No.

66 DB: How did they respond to your responsibilities?

AA: They kind of knew what I was.

DB: So you were a known entity.

AA: I’m trying to remember whether I had my stripes on then or not. I think I was wearing stripes then. They gave us armbands, which were the stripes.

DB: Acting rank then. Typically.

AA: Yes.

DB: So you arrived in England.

AA: We did. II

DB: And you stayed there a short time? GenerationPart AA: It was quite a short time.

DB: Do you remember where you landed? Society

AA: Yes. I can’t think of it right now. Project: DB: Glasgow? Greatest

AA: No. That’s in Scotland. Historical DB: Liverpool? History AA: No. That’s over in western England. There’s a big town and then a littler town and we landed at the littler town. It’s funny I can’t think of it.

DB: Anyway,Minnesota's you wentOral to camps for a short time in England.

AA: It wasn’t exactly a camp.Minnesota

DB: Only a short time though?

AA: Very short.

DB: And then you loaded up again.

AA: Then we loaded up again.

67 DB: And where did you land in France?

AA: At Le Havre. That’s in northern Normandy. It’s not on the peninsula that was invaded first. It’s north of that. We landed there at Le Havre and started out east, and we all thought, oh, good, we’re going to Paris. Well, we went in about so far, and then turned north. The Germans were coming out of Holland then, and we went up north to contain them. Which we did.

DB: Were you working with the British? Were you close to the British?

AA: No. We weren’t working with the British.

DB: Do you remember the first POWs you encountered?

AA: Yes.

DB: And what was that experience? Had you picked up some German by thisII time or did you have interpreters?

AA: My unit was made up of . . . for the most part . . . ofGeneration refugees, Partshall we say, from Germany.

DB: Your Counterintelligence Unit. Society AA: Yes. And they were, for the most part, Jewish and spoke German because they’d been raised in Germany. That was my first introduction to the German language. I’d heard it around the States but not in the quantity and quality that Project:we encountered with the interrogation of prisoners. Greatest

DB: Now as you got to know the people on your team who were Jewish-German refugees, what kind of attitudes did they have about the situation Historicalthat was going on in Germany? Were they aware of what might be going on with their relatives, or the situation back in Germany? History AA: They hated the Germans.

DB: They knew what was going on. Minnesota'sOral AA: They had a pretty good idea what was going on, and they hated the Germans, particularly those that were Nazis. Minnesota

DB: Some of them had probably been kicked around by the Nazis before they left.

AA: They had been. They had been.

DB: Were they pretty open about telling you stories about their situation?

AA: Yes. Yes.

68 DB: So when you encountered your first POWs, how did that go?

AA: It went very well.

DB: And what did you do with them? What was the circumstance of that?

AA: At that point we were trying to find out from them as much as we could about what the Germans were doing, and where they were going, and what was going on where they were. We were preparing for attack.

DB: And how did the German prisoners seem? You hear mixed stories because they were a mixed group of people. Some were glad to be out of the war, but then you might encounter the German officers who were poker-faced and arrogant.

AA: Some of the troops were, too. The ones who were basic Nazis, of course, were pretty hard to get along with. Not that we had to get along with them. They had to get alongII with us. But then there were some that were easy to get along with.

DB: What kind of interrogation techniques did you employGeneration when youPart were dealing with these hard-core Nazis, the true believers?

AA: Generally with the hard-core Nazis we’d get their name, rank and serialSociety number and that was all.

DB: And then pass them on to the division. Project: Greatest AA: And they were sent back to the POW cage. We had these big open-air cages. They were like a pasture with a barbed wire fence around them. We’d put the German prisoners in there. Historical DB: Did you encounter any SS? History AA: Oh, yes.

DB: And how were they to deal with? Minnesota'sOral AA: Tough. Many of them were very tough. Minnesota DB: Can you expound on that a little bit? What it was like dealing with those guys? Especially now you’ve got . . . your interrogators are German Jews who have good cause to be very angry with these men, and of course you’ve got German SS men who were brought up to look down on Jews. Were there any situations developing from that?

AA: We had a difficult time using our interrogators on the SS.

DB: Specifically because the SS men knew that they were German Jews?

69 AA: Not only that, but the German Jews knew the SS men were very hostile, and the SS were a little hard to get a hold of. We captured some. But they were not inclined to cooperate, and at that point in the war they were also not inclined to surrender. Many of them were wounded. We’re getting into the area where we were going into the Hürtgen Forest. We had a big battle in there, and we were going in. It was pretty rugged.

DB: The Hürtgen was a terrible situation. Not only were the Germans tough but the weather was terrible.

AA: It was indeed. That was one of the funny things . . . or amusing things. The 78th Infantry were basically made up of soldiers from the Carolinas, and they weren’t used to cold weather. We got into the blizzards that we encountered in the Hürtgen Forest and the Battle of the Bulge and so forth, and it was rather difficult for them. I was kind of used to it. It didn’t bother me so much. There were some others like me, too. But by and large, the soldiers, the basic formation of the 78th Infantry, was made up of these people that came from the Carolinas. And they had a hard time with the weather. II

DB: And of course that weather is more like a late October or November snowstorm or a March snowstorm. It was wet and cold. GenerationPart

AA: Wet and cold, and really it’s not so bad as compared with what we have here in Minnesota. Society DB: Not thirty degrees below zero, but damp cold. It goes right through your layers of clothing. Were the troops prepared for the wet weather? Did they have adequate clothing? Did they have overshoes? Project: Greatest AA: We started out with adequate clothing.

DB: But it wore out and wasn’t up to the task or . Historical. .?

AA: We got separated from adequateHistory clothing.

DB: How did that happen?

AA: ThatMinnesota's happened inOral the Battle of the Bulge.

DB: Let’s stay in the HürtgenMinnesota here, because this is the first time you’re in Germany. Did you start encountering German civilians that you had to deal with?

AA: Yes, we did.

DB: And how was it dealing with the German civilians?

AA: It depends on who they were. If we were dealing with the governing group in a town, they were difficult. If we were dealing with Gestapo or that class of German, they were almost impossible to get along with. The ordinary citizens, by and large, we got along with them.

70 DB: And how often would you encounter someone from the Gestapo or someone that was an official? You’d think they would have fled the town ahead of the Americans. Did they stick around?

AA: In many instances they did. They were devoted to their jobs and they hated Americans, of course.

DB: You couldn’t really leave them there though. What did you do with them? How did you handle them?

AA: We rounded them up and put them in a POW cage.

DB: Was it a separate cage from the military personnel?

AA: No. II DB: Just put them in with the military then?

AA: Sure. GenerationPart

DB: And then that created a void, and did you have a responsibility to try to fill that void in some way? Society

AA: We did, and we performed the responsibility. Project: DB: Your team did? Greatest

AA: Yes. Historical DB: And how did that go? History AA: It went pretty well.

DB: And again, you had these German Jews who were working with you, so they had a familiarityMinnesota's with the countryOral and the people. I mean, they were Germans.

AA: Yes. Minnesota

DB: Henry Kissinger was, I think, one of them. Not in your team though.

AA: No, no. We found in most of the towns we went into that there was an underground who were opposed to the Nazis, and they were opposed to the war, too. We would take those people and put them in positions to run the town. You couldn’t just leave the town. We had, of course, the military government, and we would put them in there, too. But they had to have some German civilians to help them out. And we did.

71 DB: And that worked out fairly successfully then?

AA: I would say so. It was pretty rough, you understand. Everything wasn’t falling in line the way we wanted it to, but we at least didn’t have the civilians starving to death and we didn’t have the farmers complaining bitterly that their cattle and horses were disappearing.

DB: Disappearing because of soldiers supplementing their diets?

AA: Yes.

DB: And was that something that you had to get involved with then, too?

AA: Yes. We accepted and dealt with various complaints that were made to us.

DB: So you had a civil-military government functioning that was fairly extensive. II AA: Yes. Mostly what we were doing, however, was combat-type work.

DB: Was your team expanded as these other responsibilitiesGeneration came in?Part

AA: No. It didn’t expand officially. There was one time when I had gotten to the point where this one and that one and the other one that I maintained or acquired a contactSociety with came back and joined me, and said that they couldn’t get along with their commanding officer or whatever, and they worked with us. Instead of the four that ordinarily would make up my unit, I had eighteen or twenty or even more that were doing Project:this, that and the other thing for me. Greatest DB: But they were CIC soldiers?

AA: Well, no. They were regular soldiers. But theyHistorical were seeking refuge from their units.

DB: But you could bring them in?History

AA: Oh, yes. We used them.

DB: BecauseMinnesota's they couldn’tOral just go AWOL from the infantry or something.

AA: No, no. They came andMinnesota worked for us.

DB: Did you ever have to supplement your work with German civilians?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: And how did that go? Beyond the ones that you placed in positions of government or administration within the occupied towns.

72 AA: By and large, I would say that the German civilians for the most part wanted peace and quiet and to be able to go along with their regular lives. We helped them to attain that, so we got pretty good cooperation from some of them. With some of them, however, you just couldn’t get any cooperation.

DB: They were Nazis?

AA: Well, even if they weren’t Nazis . . . and by Nazi, you understand, we’re talking about a political party. But even if they weren’t Nazis, there were some that were just ornery. Particularly retired soldiers.

DB: They’d lost once. They didn’t want to lose again maybe.

AA: Yes.

DB: Now at some point you got a direct commission. When was that? Or a battlefieldII commission? You became an officer at some point.

AA: I was spending an awful lot of time in combat. I’d beenGeneration woundedPart at Bad Bodendorf, and lo and behold the next thing I knew I was told I would be commissioned. So we went back to Ile de Chapelle, and there was a group of us . . . I suppose about twenty . . . that were to receive commissions. When some of them heard what they had to do after they Societygot the commission, they declined the commission.

DB: What would they have to do? Project: Greatest AA: Lead troops into combat.

DB: You mean you were going to become infantryHistorical officers?

AA: Yes. History

DB: What about you? What were you going to become?

AA: I wasMinnesota's going to stayOral . . . well, there’s a little story about that, too. But overall I would be staying with my unit. When I originally got into this Counterintelligence Corps, we were told back here in the States thatMinnesota if we were accepted we would all receive commissions. Well, we didn’t receive commissions. We all became sergeants. So it was kind of interesting to end up with a battlefield commission. I was recommended by my regimental colonel for the battlefield commission and accepted, and my commanding officer at the division . . . well, he accepted it.

DB: Your CIC commander.

AA: Yes. But he had a lieutenant with him who just couldn’t understand any of the rest of us receiving commissions, and also he spent all of his time under cover writing reports of various

73 types. There was nothing the commanding officer could do with him. Every time he’d send him out he’d be back almost immediately.

DB: He didn’t want to get his hands dirty.

AA: No. He didn’t want to get his hands dirty. And he didn’t either.

DB: But he also didn’t want any competing lieutenants around him.

AA: That was certainly part of it. Anyhow, the word came through that I was to receive a commission. I went to receive it, and one of the things that induced many of us to consider taking the commission—which involved getting up there and getting shot at—was that the rumble and the rumor was that we were going to go down to the Riviera for leave. So lo and behold my driver and I got blown up at Bad Bodendorf, and this came just after that. When we got through getting commissioned I said, “Well now, where do I report for transportation to the Riviera?” They looked at me as though I was going out of my mind, which I guess I was.II They said, “You’re not going down to the Riviera. You’re going back to your unit.”

DB: So you didn’t receive any kind of formal officer’s trainiGenerationng or anything?Part

AA: Oh, no. Society DB: Besides the fact that you didn’t get a leave to the Riviera.

AA: My officer’s training was that that I gained byProject: experience. Greatest DB: It’s unusual though for a newly commissioned officer to go back to the same unit. Did you go back to the same team, the same unit? Historical AA: Same team, same unit. History DB: And that didn’t pose any problem for you?

AA: The same regimental colonel that I was getting along with. Minnesota'sOral DB: But it didn’t pose any problem with the other men on your team. Minnesota AA: No, no. They were all very enthusiastic about it.

DB: You were commissioned to the rank of second lieutenant?

AA: Yes.

DB: When you were wounded you said you and your driver were blown up. What happened? Did you hit a mine or was there artillery fire?

74 AA: It was artillery fire.

DB: And how were you wounded?

AA: The fire came off the Dragenfelds. I think I told you the other day. That’s the peninsula almost about five or six hundred feet higher than the surrounding land that extends from the mountains on the east out across the river plain to the Rhine River. The Germans were up there and we were down below, and they spotted me with my driver and fired from the Dragenfelds and got us. He was rather seriously wounded and I was shaken up and had a few pieces in my shoulder that they had to pluck out. But I wasn’t hurt so badly.

DB: Walking wounded.

AA: Yes. There again, I asked, “Where do I find my ambulance?” I was told, “You don’t find one. You go back on duty.” II DB: Get patched up and go back to work. But your driver was evacuated. Did he survive? Did you ever find out what happened to him? GenerationPart AA: Yes. The last thing he said to me was, “Keep my place open. I’ll be back.” Then the word came back to me that they took him down to Remagen and took him across the bridge, which was still up then. They were transferring him from one to ambulance to Societyanother and he got it again.

DB: Wounded again. Project: Greatest AA: Yes. They took him back to Paris and he was gone for about a month. And then one day, there he was. Smiling sweetly. All filled out. Been eating well. Historical DB: Fattened up on hospital food. History AA: Yes.

DB: And he was glad to be back with his comrades, back with his buddies? Minnesota'sOral AA: Oh, yes. Minnesota DB: Was that pretty typical?

AA: I would say so. You get pretty close to your buddies, believe me. He was my driver. His only problem was that he couldn’t drive. Well, he could drive, but he was just terrible. So most of the time I was driving. [Chuckles] Henry Romney. A nice guy.

DB: So you’re across the Rhine now.

AA: Oh, yes.

75 DB: First you were in the Bulge. You went from the Hürtgen Forest and you were in the Bulge.

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: And you said you had a problem in the Bulge. You were inadequately dressed. You didn’t have adequate winter clothing there. You said there was some issue with the way they were provided for the cold weather there.

AA: In the Battle of the Bulge one of the problems was that the cold weather came along rather rapidly and many of the troops were in their summer uniforms yet.

DB: Because when the Bulge started it was forty to fifty degrees and then there was a thaw . . . I mean it got a little cold, but then there was a thaw. Everything turned to mud and then it got very cold. Thirty below and heavy snow.

AA: Yes. Unusually cold. II

DB: And so they’d left their winter clothing that they had somewhere else probably. GenerationPart AA: Yes.

DB: And how was that dealt with? Society

AA: In the Battle of the Bulge we were very fortunate. The Germans came through and we were right on the north edge of their drive. We had a considerableProject: amount of combat experience with them but they weren’t pushing throughGreatest our position.

My experiences in the Bulge were considerable. In truth and fact, over in Europe I was in the Battle of Northern France, the Hürtgen Forest, theHistorical Battle of the Bulge, the Cologne Plain, the Ruhr Pocket, Remagen Bridgehead, and Central Europe. So I saw considerable activity. History DB: Yes. Very much so. How often did you move forward with the forward elements? Were you at the regimental headquarters level for your team?

AA: No. IMinnesota's was stationedOral at regimental headquarters, but I spent most of my time out ahead of the line troops going into towns and getting them to surrender or interrogating prisoners or whatever. Minnesota DB: So you were with the forward battalions probably. Forward companies. Or even ahead of them.

AA: I was ahead of the forward companies much of the time.

DB: That must have been pretty risky business, going into a town that hadn’t necessarily surrendered.

AA: Sometimes people shot at you. The rascals.

76 DB: Talk about that whole experience a little bit. What was the process when you were going into a town?

AA: So very often we would be prepared to go into a town, and I would take one or two or three of my guys and maybe some other people.

DB: Wait a minute. You say you would be prepared to go into a town. Do you mean the unit, the division would be prepared to go into town?

AA: The regiment. And I would go in and negotiate a surrender so that we didn’t have people peeking out of belfries in the churches and shooting at us.

DB: That must have been awfully dangerous work.

AA: It was. II DB: Did you think about it much at the time or you just did it?

AA: It was there to be done and we did it. It was interestingGeneration work, too.Part

DB: I bet. Society AA: Very interesting.

DB: You had to employ all of your skills as a lawyer.Project: Greatest AA: And then some.

DB: Negotiating skills. Historical

AA: And then some. History

DB: And maintain an air of confidence and poker face and control over the German civilians.

AA: And Minnesota'sone thing we’dOral do, we’d get up there ahead and we’d accept the surrender of German units and march them back. Minnesota DB: This was starting mostly after you had crossed the Rhine?

AA: Yes. Before that we got into a lot of heavy fighting. The Battle of the Bulge was tough and the Hürtgen Forest was tough.

DB: They were very tough.

AA: And the battles prior to that in northern France and leading up to the Hürtgen Forest were not so bad. But starting with the Hürtgen Forest it was rough going.

77 DB: You were bouncing off the Siegfried Line up there.

AA: Yes.

DB: So after you crossed the Rhine . . . now you think about in the Hürtgen you’re dealing with German prisoners and they’re fighting almost to a standstill there.

AA: Yes.

DB: So they must have known that they were doing well and . . .

AA: And they were doing well.

DB: And when you talked to a German prisoner there were they fairly cocky about how they were doing? II AA: I wouldn’t say that they were cocky.

DB: Confident? GenerationPart

AA: They were confident. They were determined. Society DB: And at the Bulge the Germans were hopeful of a great victory that would turn the war around. How were the prisoners you dealt with there? At least initially. Project: AA: They kind of took the attitude thatGreatest it was unfortunate that they got picked up and that it would only last for a little while.

DB: And then they’d win? Historical

AA: And then they’d be releasedHistory as their troops came in and kicked us out. And of course that didn’t happen.

DB: So they were very confident of victory there. Minnesota'sOral AA: Yes. And in the Battle of the Bulge we were in a little town up on the high ground in the hills, or mountains as they Minnesotacalled them over there. They weren’t really mountains. But we were up there and the Germans were going along the main roads down below us and it was quite impressive to see what they were pushing off to the west. Then, of course, that all came to an end and we attacked from the north. And that’s when the 82nd Airborne joined us. Then there were troops coming in from the south and from the west. We gave them a battle.

DB: Do you know if you came up against Kampfgruppe Peiper? Joachim Peiper, the lead element for the Leibstandarte, the SS, the 1st SS Division?

AA: No. I don’t think we did. I don’t think so.

78 DB: You know about Colonel Peiper. He was the one who . . . it was his unit that killed the Americans at Malmedy.

AA: Yes. We were very close to Malmedy, just a few miles to the north of it. And after we heard about Malmedy, I had occasion to go down there, and the bodies were still lying around at that point. That made us mad. We weren’t quite as sweet to get along with after that.

DB: Did you ever encounter situations where German prisoners were shot?

AA: No. I know they got shot when they tried to escape. But no, I can’t say that I saw any German prisoners shot just to get rid of prisoners.

DB: So the anger at Malmedy didn’t translate itself that way, at least in your experience? You didn’t ever encounter that?

AA: No, no. II

DB: Now a few months later you’re crossing the Rhine and you said . . . GenerationPart AA: At Remagen.

DB: You crossed at Remagen, and I imagine . . . you drove across with Societyyour driver?

AA: My driver and I were among the first troops across the bridge at Remagen. That was kind of a funny thing. We’d been in this Battle of the CologneProject: Plain, and it kind of cleared up. I was parked in a pasture and this truck cameGreatest up with troops on it. They had a little trouble getting oriented about where they were supposed to go. They mentioned the fact that what was going on was an attempt to capture the bridge. I then took off with my driver. We went up to the bridge, and there was a 9th Armored CIC detachment that Historicalwas holed up in a house. They invited us in and we said, “No, we’re going to go across the river.” We were among the first troops that went over. We got on the other side andHistory on the other side there was this rail line that went across. It went into the cliff.

DB: Went into a tunnel. Minnesota'sOral AA: Yes. And on out to the west. I thought we would probably be going south, and we went across and looped off the road.Minnesota I thought we’d be going south, but we got directed around underneath and off to the north. We finally ended up in the Ruhr Pocket. It took a long time to get there, you understand. We didn’t just drive up there.

DB: So your division crossed at Remagen, too.

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: But you were in the lead element of the division?

79 AA: Yes. As a matter of fact, it was our division that really took it, not the 9th Armored. The 9th Armored had a few people on the west bank of the Rhine, and very few were across the river. We were the bulk of the troops that went across the river. But the 9th Armored was in charge of the operation and got the credit for capturing the Remagen bridgehead.

DB: Was there enemy fire when you were crossing the river?

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: And did you have a sense of the significance of crossing the Rhine? Or was it just, let’s get across this thing and get it over with, do you remember?

AA: No. At least I understood we were crossing the Rhine.

DB: Did it seem like a big deal? Very significant? II AA: Oh, yes. Not only that. I was interested in the Rhine. You heard a lot about it. And I knew we were making pretty good progress. Then when we started north along the east side of the Rhine, it was quite impressive. At least I was impressed. GenerationPart

DB: All the pictures you’ve seen all your life and here they are in front of you. The castles on the hills and the vineyards. Society

AA: Yes. Amazing. Project: DB: That’s the way it was for me. It Greatestwas like the book coming alive. The pictures in the books coming alive. To see the Rhine.

AA: Just amazing. And particularly as we got furtHistoricalher north. One of the experiences that I had was going into the town of Wuppertal and accepting the surrender. When I got out of the City Hall and was moving around a littleHistory bit, there was a lot of fire. So I got a hold of the German officers that had surrendered and I said, “What’s going on? You are supposed to have surrendered, and there’s all this fire.” They said, “Well, we just surrendered Wuppertal. This is actually three towns, and you have captured Wuppertal, which is the middle town. The other two haven’t surrenderedMinnesota's yet.”Oral [Chuckles] They did though.

DB: Did you send those officersMinnesota out to help you with negotiating?

AA: No. I went out myself. It didn’t take very long to secure the surrender.

DB: Now you’d go into a town that was still hostile. Did you go forward with a white flag? How come you didn’t get captured? You run into the wrong guy in the town and all of a sudden you’re dead or a prisoner yourself.

AA: I wasn’t carrying a white flag, I’ll tell you that.

80 DB: How did you go into a town in such a way that you wouldn’t be fired upon? I mean, this is risky business that you’re involved in.

AA: I couldn’t go into a town without being fired upon. We went in and got fired upon.

DB: Yes. That’s what I mean. This was very risky business that you’re involved in.

AA: We had several small units like mine. One thing and another. But I did a lot of sneaking.

DB: You tried to work your way into the City Hall?

AA: Oh, yes. Yes. And strangely enough, at that stage of the war, generally speaking, there were a good many of the German troops that had had enough. They sensed how it was going to end up and they were not as vicious as they had been, for example, in the Battle of the Bulge. They were more inclined to surrender. II DB: Wanted to get it over with and get home.

AA: Yes. And then we were marching them back and acrossGeneration the bridgePart at Remagen, and the German Air Force was trying to knock the bridge out. They were coming in and there was a lot of fire around there. As I think about it . . . it was probably safer and less harrowing and disturbing to be where I was up in front or ahead of our troops, rather thanSociety back there at Remagen. As I told you, my driver got hit transferring from one ambulance to another on the west side of the Remagen Bridge. Project: DB: Because of all the fire trying to knockGreatest out the bridge.

AA: Yes. Historical DB: There was some heavy fighting around the Ruhr Pocket, too, but also a lot of fast movements trying to just surroundHistory the Ruhr.

AA: Yes. We were moving pretty good there; and there was a lot of fighting going on. If you were up against a unit and it was SS, they would fight like nothing human. Then you’d take a unit that wasMinnesota's made up Oralof draftees and they were more inclined to surrender.

DB: Did you run into the Volkssturm?Minnesota The People’s Army?

AA: Yes.

DB: The last ditch. Civilians with an armband holding a bolt action rifle. Did you run into very many of them?

AA: No.

DB: How about the Hitler Youth?

81 AA: We ran into a lot of them, but they didn’t cause us much trouble.

DB: Where did your war end? Where were you when the war ended?

AA: I know the 8th of May. I had been out . . . or I went out into the hills. I’m trying to think of the town. I can’t think of it. Anyway, I went from the town out into the hills up to an old castle that was up there. My purpose in doing that was that there were . . . I understood . . . SSers retreating along that route and going down to Bavaria to carry out Hitler’s plan of defending at least that part of Germany. I was up there about three or four days cleaning this up, and then came back and rejoined my unit. They were having a celebration. I didn’t know what they were celebrating until I got there and talked to them a little bit. They were celebrating the end of the war. And I’d missed it. Not only that, but when they had the armistice, the division supply people came up and left a liquor ration where each officer was supposed to be. When I got back there was practically nothing left in a bottle.

DB: It had been looted. II

AA: My unit drank it all up. But we had . . . we didn’t have that strict discipline. GenerationPart DB: You had combat discipline.

AA: We had that. But we didn’t have the division of the officers and theSociety men. We all lived together. What the hell.

DB: You all had a job to do and they did it professionally.Project: Greatest AA: Yes.

DB: What was your feeling when you heard that theHistorical war was over? How did you respond?

AA: I was very glad, of course, thatHistory it was over but our work wasn’t. There were still these SSers that were sneaking through going down to Bavaria. We had those to contend with, and there were units of the German army that were hiding out in the woods that hadn’t gotten the message that the war was over. Then one of the biggest problems that we had were displaced persons. Minnesota'sOral DB: Germany had millions of them. Minnesota AA: Oh, yes. And they were . . . all were packing up and heading for home. And home generally was off to the east or the southeast. That was kind of a mess.

DB: Did you have to try to maintain some control over these people and their movements?

AA: We tried to. Mostly unsuccessfully. And very frankly, I got shot at a couple of times and I figured, heck, if they want to go, let them go.

DB: How about concentration camp survivors? Did you encounter them?

82 AA: Oh, yes.

DB: Did you specifically encounter any camps or did you . . .?

AA: Yes. I was in several of the camps. Labor camps.

DB: Fairly early on? Labor camps but not the death camps?

AA: Well, they were death camps.

DB: Yes. But there were some camps that were specifically designed just to kill.

AA: I was in some of those.

DB: Before the war ended or as you were advancing? II AA: Both.

DB: And what was that experience? GenerationPart

AA: That was one of the problems we had when the war was over. These poor devils were in these camps, and they were at the point where they were emaciated. They’dSociety been underfed for a long time. They didn’t have clothing. Many of them were sick. Many of them had wounds that weren’t properly treated. They were a problem. A real problem. Project: DB: And did you and your team haveGreatest to get involved in trying to stabilize or . . .?

AA: Yes. We got involved from the standpoint of interrogating the victims, finding out what’s going on, trying to find out where the unit that wasHistorical guarding them had disappeared to, and then giving them a little help. As much as we could. History DB: How was this experience for the German . . . the émigré Jews who were working with you on your team in the American army and encountering the camps and seeing these things? How was that experience for them? That must have been very difficult. Minnesota'sOral AA: Let me tell you, they got pretty worked up about it. They were not very gentle with the prisoners we took. They didn’tMinnesota shoot them but they slapped them around considerably.

DB: After the war you got involved in the occupation.

AA: Yes. Actually, we went from the war into the occupation. We just slid right on into it.

DB: What towns, what areas in Germany was the 78th occupying?

AA: Bad Hersfeld, Bad Rogarden. Those are the two I was in. Kassel was in our territory but Kassel had been bombed and it stunk to high heaven and we just stayed away from it.

83 DB: It stunk?

AA: Stunk.

DB: Because of the dead bodies and things?

AA: Yes. There were several towns between that area and the river. I had a chance to go through a lot of that.

DB: Outside of Kassel, was there a lot of war damage in the towns that you were occupying or were they more intact?

AA: Most of them were in pretty good shape. Now Frankfurt wasn’t. We went all the way down to Frankfurt.

DB: Frankfurt was very heavily bombed. II

AA: Yes. GenerationPart DB: Did you have to get involved in trying to restore some of the buildings?

AA: No. We didn’t get involved in restoring it. We had a headquarters thereSociety and we’d bring prisoners there. The prisoners for the most part were Nazis or people that were accused of war crimes. Project: DB: Political people. Greatest

AA: Yes. That sort of thing. Historical DB: So you were actively involved in rounding them up, I suppose. History AA: Oh, yes. Many were the raids we made.

DB: Talk about . . . what was a raid like? How did that go? Minnesota'sOral AA: Generally, we’d do it in the dark. Minnesota DB: You’d get intelligence from someone, get information?

AA: It was really surprising, Doug. The number of Spitzels that there were in the German populace.

DB: A Spitzel is a . . .?

AA: An informer. And many is the night that I was aroused and somebody would be outside my window. And they would tell me that a particular Nazi that we were looking for, who was

84 involved in the government of this town and committed all these acts, was hiding out in the basement of his girlfriend’s house. And then we’d go and raid it. And, generally speaking, we’d find somebody.

DB: And how did a raid go? Talk about how that unfolded.

AA: I suppose it’s like they used to raid in liquor dives here in the States.

DB: During Prohibition.

AA: Yes. We would locate the house, and we generally went in the evening because that’s when you could be almost certain they’d be there. We would post men around and then we would go up and knock on the door, and if they didn’t open it up right away we’d kick it down. There would probably be some shooting and sometimes people got hurt. Particularly the fellow that’s hiding out in the basement. It was like a raid. II DB: Did you interrogate them then, and then sent them back?

AA: Yes. Yes. We did a lot of interrogating. And a lot ofGeneration the interrogatingPart we did, Doug, was preparatory to action brought in civilian courts or that sort of thing. War crimes.

DB: How long did you stay in Europe after the war ended? Society

AA: I was there into 1946. Project: DB: You stayed there for quite a while.Greatest

AA: Oh, yes. I outsmarted myself. My commanding officer—I think it was about the end of June—came around one day and he had this long list.Historical On the list was our unit and he had inserted certain names. They were dividing the unit in half. They were sending some out to invade Japan and some of them were to stay inHistory Germany. I took the list and he had all these fellows with German names staying in Germany, and the rest of us going to Japan. I’d been shot at enough about that point, and I said, “How did you happen to divide them that way?” He said, “They have German names. They must speak German. The rest of you don’t have German names so I assume youMinnesota's don’t speakOral German.” I said, “Well, you speak German and you don’t have a German name. Why don’t you give us a test?” The next day there was a new unit. I was staying in Germany. That was justMinnesota great, except then I was advised that even if I had the points to go home I wasn’t going to go home. I was going to stay in Germany.

DB: You were critical personnel now.

AA: Yes. And stay in Germany I did.

One of the interesting things then that happened was that my commanding officer, who was also a good personal friend of mine, particularly after the war, was working away developing the replacement of various members of our group and some other groups as to those who would stay

85 in Germany in occupation and those that would go and invade Japan. He kept saying that he would, of course, be going home because he had all these points. I said, “Well, come on now. You don’t have any more points than I do.” “Oh, yes, I do,” he said. “I’ve got all kinds of points.” Well, he didn’t have two Purple Hearts, and he didn’t have a Combat Infantry Badge, and he didn’t have a couple of other decorations that carried five points. I knew darned well that I had as many points as he did or a little more. Then the order came through in early 1946 for us to go home. We were in the same shipment. [Chuckles]

DB: You mentioned awards. You did some pretty hair-raising work, going in front of the troops and everything.

AA: Yes.

DB: You said you got two Purple Hearts. What other awards . . .?

AA: I got one in actual combat, and with the other one I was shot at in the darkII of the night. I’m not sure whether it was a German that shot at me or whether it was a displaced person.

DB: It was after the war, actually? GenerationPart

AA: Yes. And I got nicked. And the orders on that thing are lost somewhere. But my commanding officer knew about it and he gave me the five points for it.Society

DB: What other awards did you receive? You said you got a Combat Infantryman’s Badge. You got the Purple Heart. Project: Greatest AA: And a Bronze Star. That’s about it.

DB: A Bronze Star is good. Historical

AA: Yes. Five points. [Chuckles]History

DB: Get you home faster. And did you go home with your unit?

AA: Oh, no.Minnesota's Oral

DB: Just a group of individuals.Minnesota Your commander, you said, was with you.

AA: Those of us that stayed in Germany formed a new unit. We were the 911th something or other.

DB: An occupation unit.

AA: We were in occupation, and we were also doing some investigative work for the Nuremberg Trials.

86 DB: Was it good to be doing legal work again?

AA: I enjoyed it. And after I got home . . . oh, my. It was two or three years afterward that I got orders to report for active duty again for shipment to Nuremberg. They wanted me to testify. I got all ready to go, and I got Charlotte Ferrish out of Mankato again to run the office, and everything all set up. About three days before I was supposed to report for active duty, lo and behold my orders were cancelled. I couldn’t figure out what had happened, but I still had some contacts and I got in touch with them. And I discovered that the gentleman I was supposed to testify against had committed suicide. That took care of that. Very shortly after that I got another set of orders to report to Fort Lewis, Washington, 2nd Division Rear, for immediate overseas shipment. That was for Korea. I got all set to go and got down to about three days, and they came out with the four dependents deal. I had four dependents then, so I didn’t have to go.

DB: So you never left Le Sueur. When you came home in 1946 that was, of course, your first time home since you went overseas, so you’d been gone about two years. II AA: Yes.

DB: You came home on the ship. You out-processed a littleGeneration bit on Partthe East Coast for a day or two, and then went to Camp McCoy. How did you get home from Camp McCoy?

AA: I took a train and it pulled into the Milwaukee Depot in Minneapolis.Society And I got off the train and there was my wife with the little guy.

DB: And had you seen him before you went overseas?Project: Had he been born . . .? Greatest AA: No. He was born after I left.

DB: So this is the first time you’d seen him. Historical

AA: Yes. History

DB: That must have been quite an amazing experience.

AA: It was.Minnesota's I could hardlyOral believe it. [Chuckles] And it was awful good to see her.

DB: And did you drive rightMinnesota back to Le Sueur?

AA: Yes. She had reservations over at Stillwater and was kind of planning on going there and having a nice reunion and all that. I got off the train and she said, “Now where would you like to go?” She thought that I’d probably say, well, where would you like to go, or something like that. I said, “I want to go home.” We went home. But she kind of got mad at me.

DB: She had expectations.

AA: Yes.

87 DB: So the typical story you hear is that the World War II veterans all came home to parades and brass bands.

AA: I didn’t.

DB: And that’s the typical story. You came home to a small family welcome.

AA: Yes.

DB: So you drove down to Le Sueur?

AA: Yes.

DB: And your wife is still living in the same apartment?

AA: Yes. II

DB: You came home, hung up your uniform, and went back to get your legal practice going again. GenerationPart

AA: Yes. I think I goofed off for a couple of days. Then I went to work. I had to. Society DB: You’d been through some hair-raising adventures, some incredible adventures. Was it hard to settle down? Was it hard to come home and get into what could be considered more mundane work? Project: Greatest AA: There were times when I was more than a little restive, but by and large I was faced with a situation where there wasn’t enough money to buy a bottle of milk and I had a wife and a child I had to take care of. There was an awful lot of workHistorical that had to be done. There were times when I was pretty restive, but by and large I settled down without any difficulty. History DB: When you say you were restive, did . . . some men talk about missing the adrenaline of combat to some degree. Mixed feelings. It’s mixed feelings. But you get on a certain level of activity and excitement, and did you miss that a little bit at times? Minnesota'sOral AA: No. Not really. Minnesota DB: So being restive was . . .

AA: I should qualify what I just told you from the standpoint that there were times when I wanted a little activity of one type or another. It didn’t bother me much, though. Practicing law at that time in the way I was practicing involved a lot of activity anyway.

DB: Did you specialize in something?

88 AA: No. I didn’t. That’s one of the funny things. Today lawyers specialize. In those days we took anything we could get and make a buck on. And we needed the bucks.

DB: Coming home there was a certain number of men who hadn’t gone to war. Sometimes they had prospered while you were away. Was that ever an issue? Did you encounter that? Men who had stayed home, worked on a farm or worked in industry. Was there resentment?

AA: We had a lot of them here in town that worked for the canning factory and who were exempt from or relieved from military service to run the canning factory and add to the food supply. For the most part, I got along just fine with them. I didn’t have any problems.

DB: So there weren’t any issues with that.

AA: No. There were a couple of them that kind of bragged that they hadn’t been in service and didn’t want to be in service and that they got out of it. I didn’t think much of them. But that was very limited. II

DB: All these veterans are returning to Le Sueur now and they’re trying to re-establish their lives. Get married. Meet their children. Get to know theirGeneration wife again.Part Build homes. Build businesses. Did this provide a part of your legal work?

AA: Oh, yes. And also we had a situation where, by and large, the veteransSociety tended to have their legal work done by a veteran. I continued in the Reserves. I didn’t have a choice at first, and then later I just continued in the Reserves. We used to meet and drill every week or two weeks. I can’t remember if it was one week or two weeks, but anyhow,Project: we did that. As a matter of fact, here in Le Sueur, as a result of our activities,Greatest they built a building for us.

DB: A Reserve center? Historical AA: Yes. That’s what they call it. A Reserve center. History DB: Did you stay in for twenty years?

AA: No. Minnesota'sOral DB: Was it a good bonding thing to get together with the other veterans? Minnesota AA: Oh, yes. Very much so.

DB: Talk about your shared experiences.

AA: Not only that, but as you well know it takes something like that, meeting with the veterans where you talk the same language.

DB: That’s right.

89 AA: We did a lot of that. A lot of these meetings in the evening, when we were supposed to be doing this and doing that and doing the other thing, they were things we all knew how to do anyway. A lot of times we just sat around and talked. I stayed in the Reserves until . . . I think it was 1956 or 1957. That’s the Active Reserves. Then I got out of that and I went into the . . . what shall we call it? Retired Reserves. That’s what they call it, too. And as I say, I got called back a couple of times but really didn’t have to go. I suppose if they had a case coming up in Nuremberg now, where they needed a witness and I would be the witness, they could call me back now.

DB: So you didn’t stay in long enough to get a pension out of it then?

AA: Oh, no.

DB: Close though. Fifteen years. You could have stayed in a few more years.

AA: I didn’t want a pension. II

DB: You had enough other stuff to do. GenerationPart AA: Yes.

DB: Was Le Sueur growing quite a bit in the late 1940s and 1950s withSociety the agricultural businesses around here?

AA: Oh, yes. Project: Greatest DB: Primarily it was Green Giant.

AA: Le Sueur today is about twice as big as whenHistorical I started to practice law here.

DB: And so that provided you withHistory a lot of work, I suppose.

AA: Oh, yes.

DB: Did youMinnesota's do muchOral with Green Giant?

AA: No. My uncle and myMinnesota cousin represented Green Giant. They officed up in the city. I did work for the Green Giant employees. Well, for everybody. And more the kind of work I like to do.

DB: But not necessarily against Green Giant?

AA: Oh, no.

DB: It was just whatever the legal needs of the employees were.

90 AA: It was like Bill Dietrich, a regular client of mine.

DB: Just for normal, personal legal matters.

AA: Yes. And his son also. I think it’s his son that you were talking about that died recently. Old Bill died fifteen years ago.

DB: Bill Dietrich died about three years ago. Maybe four.

AA: Yes. That’s Bill Junior.

DB: But you did work for him, too.

AA: Oh, yes. Bill Junior’s mother was a very nice Irish girl. Very Irish. And Bill got a little of it. They’re a nice family. Nice family. II DB: In the post-war years you had to get involved in things relating to the growth of industry around Le Sueur, the growth, you said, that doubled the size of the town. How were you involved in these things? GenerationPart

AA: To start out with, I was the city attorney. I was the school board attorney also, and both of those involved expansions. Then, in addition to that, I participated in a numberSociety of businesses as a stockholder or a director. One of the things that we did . . . and I say we again, because Bill Dietrich was involved—both Bills—was in a risk capital company. Project: DB: Is that Community Investment EnterprisesGreatest you’re talking about?

AA: Yes. Community Investment Enterprises. You probably are familiar with Medtronic stock. We were the group that got Medtronic going. I didHistorical a good deal of legal work for them way back when. Then there were several other companies like that. So we were meeting at least once a week to take care of these loans thatHistory we were making. Most of them turned out very well. There were some of those that fell on their face. We lost our money.

DB: But the loans were geared towards developing industry in the area? Minnesota'sOral AA: Yes. As I say, some of them fell on their face and we lost our money, but there were enough good ones so that we didn’tMinnesota have any problems.

DB: Were these mostly local in the Le Sueur area, or were you doing things statewide?

AA: It started in in the Le Sueur area and then expanded into the city and we finally moved our headquarters to the city.

DB: The city being Minneapolis?

AA: Yes.

91 DB: And that was about what time? What time frame are we talking about here?

AA: Twenty years ago.

DB: So the advent of the computer age.

AA: Yes. We started in with computers. That was very interesting. When we were doing it on a local basis at first there were a lot of personalities involved. But as time went on, it wasn’t so much the personalities as the business itself.

DB: The business developed a strength of its own that carried on beyond the personalities.

AA: Yes. And the purpose, of course, was to get the business going, get our money and our profit out, and give them a God bless you and help them if we had to in the future. And that happened sometimes. II DB: Has Le Sueur remained primarily a Green Giant town?

AA: No. Green Giant has been out of here for quite a whileGeneration now. NowPart when I say “out of here,” for example, I don’t mean they are completely gone. I grow for Green Giant. I grow sweet corn. Other people do things like that. Society DB: You own the land.

AA: Yes. They have a plant over at MontgomeryProject: and they have one over across the river at Glencoe. They service this area. WhenGreatest I say service, in other words, they take the crop and can it.

DB: Was it difficult when Green Giant left Le SueuHistoricalr? Did that cause a problem in the town?

AA: No. They closed up rather gently,History shall we say, and they didn’t do it overnight.

DB: You think of the image of so many small towns around the nation really that as business changes, as people commute more, the towns sort of wither on the vine and die. But it seems like Le Sueur Minnesota'shas vibranceOral here. It has the mall on the main street. Le Sueur has weathered the changes in the agricultural economy and everything fairly well. Minnesota AA: With Green Giant, you understand, they also moved to the city. But the individuals continued to live here.

DB: So a lot of commuting?

AA: They used to run a bus back and forth each day. So really, though the town lost the business except for the growing of crops and harvesting, they didn’t lose the individuals.

DB: That provided for the economy here because the jobs remained.

92 AA: Oh, yes.

DB: How has legal practice changed for you? You think about how when you started out it was more personal work, dealing with individuals. And as it went on were you dealing more with corporate law?

AA: I wouldn’t say corporate law particularly. Where many of my clients at first were personal friends and associates, obviously now at my age I don’t have very many personal friends or associates around anymore. But my son is in with me. I have two other young men in with me, and they do the things that I used to do. That is in associating with people.

DB: Your son Jim is in the practice with you. You succeeded, in a sense, where your father failed. Your father wanted you to be involved in making radios and you didn’t have an interest, but you succeeded in encouraging an interest in your son in the legal practice where your passions were. II AA: Yes.

DB: Does that give you a sense of satisfaction? GenerationPart

AA: That does. However, my oldest son, Michael, is a doctor and he is a source of satisfaction to me also. Society

DB: Of course. But law was your passion. Project: AA: Well, that’s right. Yes. You know,Greatest one of the things I can’t understand . . . well, I can understand it, I guess, but I hate to see it. Young men going into the practice of law and now they want to specialize and they want to be known as a bankruptcy lawyer or whatever, and for one reason or another they reach the age of sixty-five andHistorical boom, they’re gone.

DB: They’re retired, you mean? History

AA: And not only retired, they move away. Now as far as I’m concerned, I haven’t retired completely, but I enjoy just living here. It’s great. Minnesota'sOral DB: So you had a varied legal career. You did all kinds of work. Minnesota AA: Yes.

DB: It must have been a lot of extra work that every time you got a different case . . .

AA: There are certain things I don’t do. I don’t do bankruptcy. I don’t do inventions. That is, getting patents and that sort of thing.

DB: You talked earlier about personalities involved in some of the large corporations that you worked with. I assume you had to have known Earl Bakken from Medtronic?

93 AA: Yes.

DB: And personality issues there? Any stories relating to that? That corporation.

AA: Not with me.

DB: It was all business.

AA: There was quite a while when Medtronic, if they had a meeting that our people, our Community Investment people, were there in strength. And there was a period of time when they were on the board of directors.

DB: Of Medtronic.

AA: Yes. But that’s over with now. Medtronic is doing very well without us. Very well. II DB: Any other things you want to talk about relating to your practice? Important contacts, things you started, people you worked with. GenerationPart AA: I think one of the things that I have enjoyed the most with the practice is the personal contacts—working with people that I do when practicing in a small town like this and doing a lot of personal work. Not corporate work, but personal work. We do a lot ofSociety the corporate work, too, but it’s the personal contacts that I enjoy.

DB: You can see where you make a difference. Project: Greatest AA: Yes.

DB: You’ve had a very interesting life. And I thinHistoricalk as we discussed earlier, you had sixty-nine years of practicing law here and you made a difference in a lot of lives. So thank you very much for your time. Thank you very muchHistory for the interview.

AA: I must tell you that I’ve enjoyed the interview.

DB: Good.Minnesota's Oral

AA: Every bit of it. Minnesota

DB: That’s what I like to hear. Thank you very much.

AA: You’re welcome.

94