Vol. 715 Wednesday No. 13 9 December 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Public Spending: Infrastructure House of Lords: Procedure Committee Voting: Service Personnel Boundary Committee: Suffolk Community Radio (Amendment) Order 2010 Legislative Reform (Insolvency) (Miscellaneous Provisions) Order 2009 Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable Amounts) (England) Regulations 2009 (Definition of Treaties) (1996 Hague Convention on Protection of Children etc.) Order 2009 Legislative Reform (Revocation of Prescribed Form of Penalty Notice for Disorderly Behaviour) Order 2009 Motion to Refer to Grand Committee Digital Economy Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill [HL] Second Bribery Bill [HL] Second Reading Pupils and the Media Question for Short Debate

Grand Committee Immigration (Biometric Registration) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2009 Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating Countries) (England, and Northern ) (No. 3) Order 2009 Social Security (Contributions Credits for Parents and Carers) Regulations 2009 Environmental Permitting () (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009 National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) () Order 2009 Health Professions (Hearing Aid Dispensers) Order 2009 Debated

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 1075 Public Spending: Infrastructure[9 DECEMBER 2009] House of Lords: Procedure Committee 1076

Lord Newby: My Lords, we welcome the announcement House of Lords in the Pre-Budget Report of the establishment of Infrastructure UK. But is not the real problem how to Wednesday, 9 December 2009. get more funds into infrastructure investment? Will the Government give further consideration to the 3pm establishment of a national infrastructure bank that can take funds from institutional investors and private Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Salisbury. savers? Public Spending: Infrastructure Lord Myners: The establishment of Infrastructure Question UK, which will absorb the Infrastructure Financial Unit in HMT and Partnerships UK, to be a focal 3.06 pm point for infrastructure development, is an important Asked By Baroness Valentine step. The appointment of Mr Paul Skinner as chairman is to be welcomed. I am not persuaded that an To ask Her Majesty’s Government which major infrastructure bank in itself would offer anything over projects have benefited from an acceleration of and above the efforts we will make to channel long-term public spending on infrastructure in the current funds into infrastructure investment. I agree with the and previous financial years. noble Lord—or at least with the thesis behind his question—that in the past our major pension funds The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury have not invested in infrastructure projects, which, of (Lord Myners): My Lords, £365 million of the £3 billion course, have many features which would match the capital fiscal stimulus accelerated to 2008-09 was spent liabilities that they are seeking to finance. as planned on housing repairs, insulation and college refurbishments, including £110 million to accelerate investment in modernising facilities in further education Baroness Noakes: My Lords, one of the most important colleges. In 2009-10, accelerated spend includes infrastructure decisions that remains to be made relates £969 million for DCSF to spend on capital projects in to the additional runway at Heathrow. Can the Minister schools, £275 million for BIS to spend on higher confirm that, despite reports in the press today, the education and research infrastructure and £525 million Government will not seek to make a binding decision for CLG to spend on housing and regeneration. As in relation to that runway before the next election? reported in the Pre-Budget Report, including projected 2009-10 spending, it is estimated that £1.7 billion of Lord Myners: I have not seen the reports to which the £3 billion total has now been spent. the noble Baroness refers and I am not briefed to answer the question. I shall no doubt establish, and Baroness Valentine: My Lords, I thank the Minister indeed shall ensure, that my colleagues are aware of for his reply and for the Government’s recommitment the reports, but I am unaware of any decisions having to Thameslink and Crossrail in the Pre-Budget Report. been taken in respect of Heathrow in recent days. I am But short-term spending commitments are not a substitute clear that we are committed to investing in Heathrow for sustained investment, especially as the OECD notes as a major transport hub to support the UK economy that in Britain infrastructure projects are, and the integration of London with the regions— “typically the first victim of fiscal consolidation efforts, while something that the party opposite is clearly unwilling other less productive but politically sensitive projects survive”. to do. Will he commit all parts of government properly to consider and publish comparable cost-benefit analysis Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, how will we be of major spending proposals, whether these proceed able to afford the major roadworks and rail improvements or not? outlined in the Pre-Budget Report?

Lord Myners: First, I congratulate the noble Baroness Lord Myners: We are continuing with PSNI—public on getting her response to the Pre-Budget Report onto sector net investment—at a significantly higher level her website even before the Chancellor of the Exchequer of GDP than was the case before this Government had finished speaking. That is absolutely the speed out came into office. That is entirely fundable and can be of the starting blocks that we expect from London financed in accordance with the Chancellor of the First. I am delighted to hear that she welcomes the Exchequer’s plans, as outlined today in the Pre-Budget support to Thameslink and Crossrail. Progress on Report. both has already commenced, as is the case for other major infrastructure expenditure. The OECD’s observation about infrastructure and capital expenditure being House of Lords: Procedure Committee placed at risk during a recession is tested by the fact Question that we brought forward capital expenditure. Of course we indicate that it will decline going forward to 2013-14. 3.11 pm In fact, it will fall from 3.3 per cent of GDP to about 1.25 per cent. But before we get too alarmed about Asked By Lord Campbell-Savours that, I remind noble Lords that that represents three To ask the Chairman of Committees what proposals times the proportion of GDP for 1997 and twice the regarding House of Lords procedure and practice level in real terms. As far as cost-benefit analysis is are under discussion in the House of Lords Procedure concerned, that is at the heart of all our decisions. Committee. 1077 House of Lords: Procedure Committee[LORDS] House of Lords: Procedure Committee 1078

The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of The Chairman of Committees: As I indicated in my Tara): My Lords, the Procedure Committee met on reply to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that Monday. It agreed a report recommending the would not be a matter best dealt with by the Procedure introduction of Oral Questions to Secretaries of State Committee as such; it would be a matter that should in this House, amendments to Standing Order 78, be discussed in either a Select Committee or a Leader’s which governs the composition of the Committee for Group. Then, any recommendations would have to Privileges, and the abolition of the Personal Bills come to the House as a whole and be agreed by the Committee. It also discussed the procedural implications House. It would then be up to the Procedure Committee of the coming into force of the Lisbon treaty and new to implement any recommendations put to it. editions of the Companion and Erskine May.Asalways, the Procedure Committee is pleased to consider proposals Lord McNally: Does the Chairman of Committees put forward by noble Lords. agree that the other place has received considerable kudos by setting up the Wright committee and giving Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, with 240 Members it a fairly tight timetable to bring forward suggestions? of this House indicating that they want a review of the As the noble Lord pointed out, the system can be Speaker’s powers and responsibilities, the introduction cumbersome and slow. Perhaps a Leader’s committee—a of a new code of conduct, the reconstruction of the Lords Campbell-Savours committee springs to mind— expenses system and the Wright report in the Commons seeking wholesale modernisation of the handling of Noble Lords: Oh! legislation, what is our Procedure Committee doing in the area of major changes which many Members are Lord McNally: The Chairman of Committees will asking for and which would bring us into the 21st century? immediately see what strong support there is for that idea. We have very few weeks left in this Parliament. The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, I am Why do we not use the opportunity, as they have done aware that there is interest in change, as has been at the other end, to look at improvements that could expressed on a number of occasions recently by noble be made to make this place, as the noble Lord, Lord Lords speaking on the Loyal Address and at various Campbell-Savours, said, fit for purpose in the 21st century? other times. However, I do not believe—nor does practice have it—that the Procedure Committee is the The Chairman of Committees: The noble Lord best means of bringing about such change. Major changes mentions the Wright committee. That was a Select of the kind that the noble Lord refers to are best Committee of the House of Commons. It was not considered normally by a Leader’s Group and occasionally dealt with by the House of Commons Procedure by a Select Committee. It is then for that group to Committee. It has come forward with recommendations, report to the House and for the House to consider any some of which may affect our procedures in this proposals. The Procedure Committee then implements House. For this House, that would be exactly the sort those proposals. As the noble Lord will be aware, the of thing that would be dealt with either by a Leader’s Leader of the House has already responded to these Group or by a Select Committee. suggestions—most notably on 25 November and at the Procedure Committee this week—and she is, I Lord Willoughby de Broke: My Lords, in his Answer understand, considering whether to proceed. to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, the noble Lord Eden of Winton: My Lords, has any consideration Lord mentioned the Lisbon treaty. Can he please been given to the possibility of having Monday’s debate explain what effect the Lisbon treaty will have on the on the SSRB report deal solely with the principles procedures of this House? enshrined in that report, with detailed consideration of the individual points in the report taken on some The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, it is all to other day? do with scrutiny—with which, I imagine, the noble Lord will be in favour. A paper by the Leader of the The Chairman of Committees: My Lords, that was House was put before the Procedure Committee on certainly not discussed at the Procedure Committee; it Monday. I believe that it is in the Library of the would not be a matter for the committee. The Motion House. The noble Lord will no doubt wish to get a for Monday’s debate, which I shall be opening, is to copy before they all run out. There is also a copy of a recommend acceptance of the House Committee’s paper from the noble Lord, Lord Roper, the chairman report, but it also recommends setting up an ad hoc of the Committee. We had useful group to look into the recommendations. discussions on this and will be returning to the subject in February, but procedural changes will need to be Baroness Gardner of Parkes: Is the Chairman of made regarding the scrutiny of matters. Committees aware that, although the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is very much in favour of Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, although some sort of powerful Speaker, many Members of the this may not be directly related to the Procedure House are very concerned and feel that that would be Committee, would not the noble Lord agree that the a retrograde step? For that reason, I hope that there scrutiny procedures introduced through the Lisbon would be no movement on it unless it had been put to treaty will enhance this House’s role in scrutiny and the whole House and considered in great detail. We all strengthen our role in legislation coming fromEurope? support the comments of the Leader of the House that the present system is working very well, especially The Chairman of Committees: I am sure that the in relation to the Lord Speaker. noble Baroness is right, but that is not a matter for me. 1079 House of Lords: Procedure Committee[9 DECEMBER 2009] Boundary Committee: Suffolk 1080

Voting: Service Personnel Lord Bach: The noble Lord puts forward an interesting Question and ingenious idea, which I will take back. The Elections Minister, my right honourable friend Mr Wills, has set 3.19 pm up a working group consisting of officials from the Ministry of Justice, the Ministry of Defence and the Asked By Lord Roberts of Llandudno Electoral Commission, as well as the families federations To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress of the Armed Forces. It is considering a number of has been made to ensure that all serving personnel proposals, and I will make sure that that is one of are registered to vote and receive their ballot papers them. in time to vote in the forthcoming elections. The Lord Bishop of Chester: My Lords, can the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Minister confirm that all serving personnel are old of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, service personnel enough to vote? face unique challenges in electoral participation. The Lord Bach: I cannot confirm that they are, which is Government are working to ensure that we have in one of the difficulties about automatic registration. place the most effective measures to support their The idea is excellent, at least in theory, for service participation. A registration awareness campaign has personnel of whatever age either to be told about engaged every Armed Forces unit, and the Government registration or to be registered when they join the will extend the service declaration period from three Armed Forces. The Elections Minister has asked officials years to five to increase convenience. The Elections to explore the idea that has been mentioned here Minister met MPs and Armed Forces families’ today, along with a range of other suggestions which representatives last week to discuss further steps. may improve registration. Lord Roberts of Llandudno: I am grateful to the Lord Tyler: Do the Government accept that Minister for that Answer. I hope that that will include arrangements for proxy and postal votes for the armed provision that ballot papers will be delivered in plenty services often prove unworkable because of the tight to time to servicemen in, say, Afghanistan—9,000 of election timetable to which the Minister has referred? whom would appreciate the speeding up of thought Will the Government look again at the excellent report that the Government are giving to that question. Can I from the Electoral Commission in 2003, entitled Election ask two further questions? Timetables in the , in which the Commission argued that there was no evidence to Noble Lords: Oh! suggest that the, “current inconsistencies in election timetables are based on anything Lord Roberts of Llandudno: We are all concerned other than historical accident, and the prevailing political pressures about this. First, could we have the automatic registration at the time different legislation was passed”? of service recruits, so that they are registered to vote Will the Minister assure your Lordships’ House that when they sign up to the Armed Forces? Secondly, he will look again at this issue in the light of the could we have permanent machinery in place so that discussions that have taken place here today? we do not always have to fight a battle to make sure that service personnel are able to vote in what are vital Lord Bach: I will certainly do that because we are elections to them, as they are to the rest of us? looking for assistance on this important subject from all quarters. The Electoral Commission itself thinks Lord Bach: My Lords, I will do my best in the that the best way to guarantee a high turnout from limited time to answer the noble Lord’s first question service personnel is through the proxy vote system, on this occasion. Statutorily, there are only 11 working which can be put in place well before nominations are days from the close of nominations until polling day. closed. This is a very tight timeframe, which presents logistical challenges for Armed Forces personnel serving overseas. Lord Geddes: My Lords, with reference to my noble However, for this election we are attempting to put a friend’s recent suggestion, does the noble Lord agree scheme in place, which will work for troops on active that e-mails are nowadays, on past precedent, somewhat service in Afghanistan. We have been looking at the porous? current postal voting system and we believe that it is possible to set up such a scheme, which would deliver Lord Bach: I believe, my Lords, that it has been ballot papers to and from Afghanistan in time for known. them to be counted. Why? Because there are a lot of supply flights to that country on a very regular basis. Boundary Committee: Suffolk We are working towards that end. I have to emphasise Question that operational priorities must prevail at all times and we cannot guarantee success, but I hope the House 3.25 pm will think that it is worthwhile trying. Asked By Baroness Scott of Needham Market Lord Swinfen: Using modern information technology, To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the would it be possible to have the votes counted Court of Appeal judgment regarding the local confidentially in Afghanistan and the results e-mailed government review in Suffolk, what is their revised to the relevant constituencies in the United Kingdom, timetable for implementing the advice of the Boundary so that they can be incorporated in the final counts? Committee for England. 1081 Boundary Committee: Suffolk[LORDS] Boundary Committee: Suffolk 1082

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, or at what cost, whether they be council tax payer or Department for Communities and Local Government & the business community. Does he agree that focused Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of unitary structures make best sense for cities—not Luton): My Lords, yesterday I informed the House necessarily for rural areas but for cities—on which so that the Boundary Committee has provided its advice much of the counties’ and the country’s prosperity on unitary proposals for Devon, Norfolk and Suffolk. depends? Representations can now be made to us about the committee’s proposals or the original proposals until Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I hope my 19 January 2010. We will carefully consider the committee’s noble friend will forgive me if I do not comment in advice, all representations received and all other relevant detail on the specific proposal in the question, but I information, before taking our statutory decisions on agree that these issues of leadership, accountability, whether to implement any unitary proposal. transparency and duplication of services are what drove the White Paper in 2006. In all of this our Baroness Scott of Needham Market: Is the noble priority is to ensure that the people of Devon, Norfolk Lord aware that the Government’s proposals for and Suffolk will have the councils that are best able to restructuring these three counties are now in their play their part at the heart of providing innovative and third year and that the uncertainty has had a severe better value public services across the counties, providing impact on these councils, particularly their ability to strong strategic leadership, engaging effectively with recruit new staff? Given that the Boundary Committee their most local communities, and delivering efficiencies is operating under rules that have been set for it by the and service improvement. Government, under what circumstances would the Government not follow the committee’s advice? Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, speaking as a resident in Devon, is there the slightest possibility of Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, throughout any decision before the next election? the process we have recognised the importance of minimising the continuing period of uncertainty for Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, it is important the councils and the communities involved. As for the that we try now to make decisions as quickly as second point of the noble Baroness’s question, until possible. In particular, we are very keen to see decisions we have gone through the process of receiving made before the next election. If they are not and representations on both the original proposals and the decisions are taken subsequently, it will mean another Boundary Committee’s proposals it is impossible to delay in implementing unitary authorities—if that is answer that; indeed I think it would be improper to the decision after representations have been considered. answer it. We need to have a fair period when those If we can make decisions before the next election then representations can be made, heard and considered. we have the prospect of any unitary authorities that Earl Cathcart: My Lords, there is no public demand emerge being in place by April 2011. for another bout of expensive, time-consuming and divisive unitary restructuring. It has cost Norfolk councils Lord Tope: My Lords, have the Government carried £2 million so far, and I believe that Cornwall has out any reviews of the first tranches of local government overspent by about £10 million. So it is the Conservative reorganisation, and if so what lessons have they learnt policy to revoke any such legislation, to ensure that the and what cost-benefit analysis has been done? If such scarce resources are properly directed to front-line reviews have been carried out, will they publish the services. Is this not another example of government- results or did they conclude that they wished that they botched business? had never started the process? Lord McKenzie of Luton: That is very much not the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, there are a lot case, my Lords. If you want proof of that, look at the of questions in that supplementary. In terms of reviews, unitary authorities that were established in just April I mentioned a moment ago what has happened to of this year and what is happening already. These those councils that became unitary in April 2009 and councils are redesigning services to improve outcomes the improvements that are already ensuing. Again as I for local people; they are on track to achieve efficiency said previously, what drove the process in the first savings of over £150 million this year; and they are place were concerns over transparency and particularly stripping out duplication and inefficiency, including over duplication of services in two-tier authorities. It removing some senior management posts, saving is important that we review the recommendations that £22 million a year. So the proof is there that unitary come forward and the representations that are made authorities can work and do work. If you want the around those proposals. We are dealing here with classic case of the challenges of two-tier authorities, specific proposals for specific areas. you have waste collection at one tier of an authority and waste disposal at the other. What on earth is the Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, does the sense in that? noble Lord agree that it is essential if you are going to have first-class, independent local authorities, of whatever Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I declare an interest sort, that they should be properly financed from their both as former leader of Norwich City Council and own resources? In that regard, would the Government currently as a DL of the county of Norfolk. Does my consider returning the business rate to local authorities? noble friend accept that the greater Norwich area is currently run by four different local authorities? It is a Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the noble mess. No one knows who does what, to what standard Lord tempts me beyond the scope of this question. 1083 Boundary Committee: Suffolk[9 DECEMBER 2009] Digital Economy Bill [HL] 1084

Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market: My Lords, proposals with possible modifications, to accept the speaking also as a resident of the county of Norfolk, recommendations of the Boundary Committee with is it not wholly inappropriate, given the intervention of modifications if that is felt to be appropriate, or to do the Christmas and New Year breaks, to give such a nothing. Those are the three choices that the Secretary very short time for local authorities to respond on this of State faces. important issue? It is something like two to three weeks. Will he consider extending the timescale? More Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, the importantly, given the late stage of this Parliament Minister believes that the public have not been excluded. and the very considerable widespread opposition in In what way were they consulted in Wiltshire? Norfolk to these proposals, is it not absurd to proceed with something with substantial upfront costs in the early years to be implemented in the next Parliament Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, my brief and when it may well be reversed in that Parliament? the figures set out in it do not cover Wiltshire, but I am happy to write to the noble Lord. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the question of reversing this in the next Parliament presumes that there might be a change of Administration. Noble Community Radio (Amendment) Order Lords would not expect me to accept that. Assuming 2010 that the process is completed in this Parliament, it would take primary legislation to reverse the process. In terms of the timescale, there is a requirement to Legislative Reform (Insolvency) have a six-week period between the Boundary Committee’s (Miscellaneous Provisions) Order 2009 recommendations and decisions. We are extending that because there is going to be a six-week period for representations. We believe that is fair. There will be Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable some period over Christmas where there will not Amounts) (England) Regulations 2009 necessarily be full engagement, but the six-week period is beyond that required by statute. European Communities (Definition of Baroness Shephard of Northwold: My Lords, the Treaties) (1996 Hague Convention on Minister has said that the next period is to be devoted to receiving representations. Can he tell the House Protection of Children etc.) Order 2009 from whom he expects to receive representations, since so far the public in these counties has been specifically excluded by the Government? Legislative Reform (Revocation of Prescribed Form of Penalty Notice for Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we have written Disorderly Behaviour) Order 2009 to chief executives of all the councils involved explaining Motion to Refer to Grand Committee the process for representations. We expect most representations to come in written form but there are 3.35 pm arrangements whereby elected representatives, individually or collectively, can make representations directly to Moved By Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Ministers. I believe there is a fair process for people to be engaged. To move that the draft Orders, Regulations and Legislative Reform Orders be referred to a Grand Committee. Earl Ferrers: My Lords, why have the Government excluded the public? Motion agreed. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I would not accept that we have excluded the public from these Digital Economy Bill [HL] processes. Order of Consideration Motion

Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I declare an interest as 3.35 pm chairman of Marlesford parish council in Suffolk. Since no agreement has been reached in Suffolk on the Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham changes that should be made, is this not the moment To move that it be an instruction to the Committee to apply a principle of good government—if there is of the Whole House to which the Digital Economy no agreement on the changes needed, then rather like Bill [HL] has been committed that they consider the in the House of Lords, it is better not to make the bill in the following order: changes? Clauses 1 to 41, Schedule 1, Clause 42, Schedule 2, Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I will not be Clauses 43 to 46, Schedule 3, Clauses 47 to 49. drawn on the noble Lord’s last point. The prospect before the Secretary of State is to accept the original Motion agreed. 1085 Third Parties Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1086

Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill misunderstanding on whether the current criminal law [HL] on bribery meets the United Kingdom’s international obligations. Your Lordships should be in no doubt Second Reading that, while the existing criminal law is clearly ripe for reform, this country was and is fully compliant with 3.36 pm our international obligations. Moved By Lord Bach The issue is not therefore one of compliance or the That the Bill be read a second time. scope of the existing criminal law, but whether it is wholly fit for purpose. The current law consists of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry common law offence of bribery dating back to at least of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, the Second Reading , and various statutory offences, brigaded Committee considered the Bill in the Moses Room on under the banner of the Prevention of Corruption Monday 7 December and I therefore beg to move this Acts, enacted in the latter part of the 19th and early Motion formally. 20th century. Given this ancestry, it is not surprising that the Law Commission has described the current Bill read a second time and committed to a Special law as, Public Bill Committee. “riddled with uncertainty and in need of rationalisation”. While it has long been recognised that the current Bribery Bill [HL] law is in need of reform, there has been considerable Second Reading argument and debate about the form that the new body of criminal offences should take. It is for this 3.37 pm reason that it has taken us longer than we would have Moved By Lord Bach wished to get to the point when we could introduce a That the Bill be read a second time. Bribery Bill commanding the necessary widespread support, not just from Members of your Lordships The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry House and of the other place, but from the business of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, it is fitting that we community and non-governmental organisations. That should have the Second Reading of the Bribery Bill on we have been able to reach this position is in no small the United Nation’s International Anti-Corruption way thanks to the careful analysis and consideration, Day. The Government are committed to action to first by the Law Commission and, secondly, by the tackle bribery. It is an insidious offence that undermines Joint Committee on the draft Bribery Bill, chaired by good governance, distorts competition, saps economic the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross. I am and social development and eats away at the very delighted that he will speak in this debate. Therefore, fabric of democratic society. The impact of bribery in on behalf of the Government, I record our gratitude developing countries can be particularly acute. It can to the Law Commission—to its chairman, in particular— add 10 per cent to the cost of doing business in some and to all the members of the Joint Committee, especially countries and siphons off billions of pounds of the noble Viscount. development aid into the pockets of corrupt officials. It is a testament to the Joint Committee’s cogent We should be proud of the fact that the UK remains analysis that the Government could accept, either largely untainted by the pernicious presence of bribery wholly or in part, all but one of the committee’s 39 and of our strong record as a champion of the global conclusions and recommendations. The fact that this fight against corruption. Last month, Transparency Bill has had the benefit of pre-legislative scrutiny does International published its corruption perception index not, of course, mean that your Lordships will not for 2009, which ranks 180 countries according to want to scrutinise it in their usual thorough and perceived levels of corruption among public officials forensic manner. I trust, however, that we have reached and politicians. Inevitably, the expenses scandal has the stage where that examination can be about the not helped our standing in the world, but we need to finer details of the Bill rather than its core purpose put that in perspective. The United Kingdom is ranked and basic structure. as the 17th least corrupt country in the world. We are I now turn to the detail of the Bill. It creates two equal third among the G8 countries and equal fourth general offences of bribery, a third specific offence of among the G20. But we can and should do more. Our bribing a foreign public official and finally a new standing has been higher in recent years, and we need corporate offence of failing to prevent bribery. Let me to reassert our position as a leading global champion say a little more about each of these four offences. The against corruption. Taking firm action to address the general offences, in Clauses 1 and 2, cover on one side expenses scandal, as we have done through the creation of the coin the offer, promise and giving of a financial of the new Independent Parliamentary Standards or other advantage, and on the flip side the request, Authority, was one necessary step. The Bill before the agreeing to receive or acceptance of such an advantage. House, which will put in place a modern and codified These offences focus on the conduct of the payer or framework of criminal law to tackle bribery in all its the recipient of a bribe and describe six scenarios, manifestations, is another vital step forward. each involving the improper performance of a function, Before I turn to the detail of the Bill, I want to where one or other offence would be committed. These make one thing absolutely clear to the House. It was new offences will apply to functions of a public nature evident from some of the remarks made during the as well as in a business, professional or employment debate on the Queen’s Speech that there may be some context. 1087 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1088

Clause 6 introduces a bespoke offence of bribing scheme, which was capable of conferring a broad foreign public officials. As I have already made clear, exemption for the security services, was arguably cast the absence of such an offence in our current law does too widely. I welcome the fact that in its briefing, not put the United Kingdom in breach of our Transparency International, international obligations. The existing general offences “accepts that the Government has responded positively”, and, for that matter, their replacements in Clauses 1 and 2, cover the territory of the OECD convention, to the Joint Committee’s recommendation on this issue. which does not require a separate offence. Indeed, in September last year the City of London Police secured While we have removed the authorisation procedure, the conviction, under the Prevention of Corruption we remain firmly of the view that some provision is Act 1906, of a managing director of a Wiltshire-based required to address those circumstances in which the company in connection with the bribery of a Ugandan security services, law enforcement agencies and the Government official. Having said that, we recognise military may have to use financial or other inducements that a bespoke offence would further underline this to enable them effectively to discharge their functions. country’s commitment to international efforts to stamp We note of course that the much-respected Constitution out the particularly insidious practice of bribing foreign Committee of this House has expressed some concerns public officials, not least because of the devastating about this clause in the report it published last Friday. impact that such practices can have in developing We thank the committee and its chairman for the countries. report. Your Lordships may be assured that we will This quartet of new offences is completed by the study it and its conclusions with care. We will respond offence of failure by a commercial organisation to to the committee in due course, having also heard the prevent bribery. Again, corporate liability for bribery, views of other noble Lords on this issue today and as with other offences, is an existing feature of our later on in Committee. criminal law. But this is another area where there is a There is one point that is not in the Bill but which compelling case for a bespoke, targeted offence. the House would expect me to mention. The general One of the core conclusions of the committee chaired offences in the Bill apply to all those performing by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf—I am functions of a public nature. As such, we intend that delighted that he is speaking in this debate—into the the Bill would apply to Members of this House and of ethical policies and procedures of BAE was the need the other place. The Joint Committee did not demur for a proactive role for a company board in securing from this. It is, I believe, axiomatic that no Peer or and maintaining high standards of ethical business should be above the law. The conduct. We agree. But these are matters that are too draft Bill sought to deal with the consequences of this important to be left to the commercial sector alone. by providing for Article 9 of the to The Law Commission came to the same conclusion. be waived so that the words or conduct of a Member Clause 7 creates an offence of failing to prevent of Parliament or Peer charged with an offence under bribery which can only be committed by a relevant the Bill may be admissible as evidence. commercial organisation. The clause also provides for We recognise that the issue of parliamentary privilege a defence for a commercial organisation to show that is an emotive one, as we saw during the passage of the it had adequate procedures in place to prevent bribery. Parliamentary Standards Act. Members of both Houses We recognise that there has been considerable debate rightly do not want to see an erosion of hard-won about what constitutes “adequate procedures” for these freedoms. The Joint Committee took the view that purposes. As we indicated in our response to the Joint there were dangers in adopting a seemingly piecemeal Committee, the Government agree that guidance should and inconsistent approach to parliamentary privilege be made available to commercial organisations. We and suggested that the matter should more appropriately propose that such guidance should be available well in be dealt with in a parliamentary privilege Act. Given advance of the new offences coming into force. the Joint Committee’s conclusion on this matter and Over the coming months we will develop appropriate the complexities and sensitivities surrounding this issue, guidance, drawing on the expertise of business we have not included provision in respect of parliamentary representatives, Transparency International and others. privilege in the Bill as introduced into your Lordships’ Among other things, we envisage that the guidance House. None the less, we recognise that the House will will provide illustrative good practice examples of wish to consider this issue carefully during the course adequate procedures. of our debates, both today and during the subsequent While guidance will be in place to assist business, amending stages of the Bill. We look forward to those the message from the Bill is clear. The payment of debates and will reflect carefully on what is said on bribes, including facilitation payments, is unlawful. If both sides of the argument. companies pay them in order to gain a business advantage This is an important Bill which will deliver a modern they run the risk of prosecution. Bribery on any scale and comprehensive body of criminal law to support cannot and should not be tolerated or condoned. the work of law enforcement agencies and prosecutors Clause 12 provides a defence for law enforcement in rigorously combating bribery, both in the United agencies, the security services and the Armed Forces. Kingdom and abroad. It is an outcome to which This is a significant departure from the draft Bill everyone can subscribe and I hope the Bill will enjoy which included an authorisation scheme in respect of support from all sides of the House. We look forward the security services. That scheme did not find favour to working with noble Lords to ensure its speedy with the Joint Committee. We accept that an authorisation progress. I commend the Bill to the House. 1089 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1090

3.51 pm Innovation and Skills after consultation with the business community. There are many different types of businesses Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, I warmly operating overseas, where the question of what is welcome the Bill and thank the Minister for the clear adequate will depend very much on the nature of the way in which he has introduced it. I also thank the business and on the knowledge it has of the situation Government for the required preparation. YourLordships overseas. will recollect that a previous draft Bill was rejected by There are many other questions that might be raised a Joint Committee of both Houses presided over by in Committee. I am concerned about the nature of the the late Lord Slynn of Hadley, to whom I pay tribute consent required for prosecutions. These offences under for the work he did while a Member of the House in the older law generally required the consent of the both its judicial and legislative capacity. Attorney-General. In the Bill, that has been replaced The principles set out in the Bill, and the manner in by the consent requirement of the three relevant directors, which it has been put together, are very clear and depending on the situation. The OECD had something acceptable. I hope that the Bill will be given a Second to say about this. I think it is highly undesirable to Reading with acclamation. I am glad that it is proposed reduce the responsibility of the Attorney-General, that it will then be referred to a Grand Committee who is accountable to Parliament, in this area. It is because the Minister has hinted that there a number of true that some people suggest that because a person is detailed points of a committee nature that need to be a member of the Government, his or her discretionary addressed. I shall mention one or two—I shall not judgments cannot be justified or treated as trustworthy. attempt to be exhaustive—which have occurred to me Some people may think that, but I think that the last on studying the background and the Bill itself. thing that politicians, those with a responsibility in politics, should do is to accede to that. It is very My first point relates to what have been called important that the person taking decisions in this area “facilitation payments”. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson should be accountable to Parliament. A great deal has of Port Ellen, gave a good example of these to the been done and I have no doubt will be done in the Joint Committee. He referred to the captain of a ship development of protocols between the Attorney-General who, when seeking to have its cargo unloaded, was and the directors and that is a good and useful told by the stevedores at the port that it would be development, but I find it difficult to agree that the unloaded only on the condition that a payment was Attorney-General’s consent should be taken out of made to someone nominated by the stevedores, not the Bill without the full discussion that will ultimately necessarily to the stevedores themselves. That is a very be required under the provisions of the constitutional difficult position for the captain of a ship to be in, and Bill now before Parliament. yet, if he paid, the Bill would criminalise his payment. The last point that I want to make is in relation to Another example I have come across—there are quite Clause 12 and concerns the empowerment of the law a number in this general area—is that of someone on a enforcement agencies, the Secret Service, including business trip who, in order to board the aeroplane at GCHQ, and the Armed Forces on active service to do the , has to get a boarding pass. He is asked by what the Bill would make unlawful, but to do it the official issuing the boarding pass for money, not to lawfully because they have authority to do so. The pay airport taxes but as a payment to the man himself—or Constitution Committee has dealt with this in great the woman herself, of course; it is equally dangerous detail and in a way that I find very convincing. This is when it comes from that quarter. It is a difficult issue a point that requires to be considered in Committee and I wonder whether the ordinary defence of duress and I have no doubt that in due course it will be. could be adapted and available in this situation. In conclusion, we are greatly indebted to the Joint The Minister mentioned the provisions about Committee for its consideration of the Bill—and very companies and one of the questions that arises is full and detailed consideration it was. Those thanks go about the relationship between a holding company to its chairman and to all its members. I also thank and, let us say, an overseas subsidiary company in especially the Law Commission, and I venture to regard to these responsibilities. We will want to examine suggest that if its talents were used more freely in these matters. connection with the development of criminal justice legislation in this country, the system might be a good There is also a question, as the noble Lord mentioned, deal simpler, and a good deal better. I hope that the about the defence of adequate procedures. There have Government, having regard to how the procedure has been many requests, as the noble Lord also said, for developed into a Bill that is, I hope, very acceptable authoritative guidance in this area. Having wondered around the House, might find that attractive for further about this, I think that the department of the noble developments in the criminal justice system as a whole. Lord, Lord Mandelson, could be responsible for giving Whatever can be said about the Bill, both in its substantive guidance, just as the Department for Transport is provisions and its procedures—particularly in relation responsible for the Highway Code. The provisions to sentencing and the recovery of the proceeds of which give effect to the Highway Code in law would be crime—it cannot be described as simple. quite adequate for dealing with this matter. It would not be conclusive one way or the other, but it would be guidance that could be referred to as authoritative Lord Waddington: Will my noble and learned friend with the tendency either to implicate or to exculpate allow me to raise one matter? Having served on the according to the situation. A great deal of the difficulty Joint Committee on the Corruption Bill, will he allow would be resolved by authoritative guidance of that me to associate myself with his remarks about Lord kind, developed by the Department for Business, Slynn? Will he accept that this Bill is as clear and easy 1091 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1092 to understand as that Corruption Bill was obscure? The committee did not suggest—nor does the Bill Lord Slynn had a very hard task chairing our committee require—that there should be any system of clearances because of the difficulties with which he was presented. for individual projects, as is provided for in the USA. The view taken by this Bill on that subject is quite Lord Mackay of Clashfern: I am grateful to my correct. Clause 9 transfers the need for consent to noble friend for his intervention, and to some extent I prosecution from the Attorney-General to the directors understand how difficult it is for a Joint Committee set of the prosecuting authorities. The Attorney-General, up to look at a draft to come to the conclusion that it however, retains the power of direction. I disagree is so bad that it should not go ahead at all. However, fundamentally with the noble and learned Lord, Lord no doubt, it has to be done sometimes, and with Lord Mackay of Clashfern, on this. I believe that the Attorney- Slynn in the chair it was done on that occasion. General should not have a power of direction so long as she remains a member of the Government. I should 4.02 pm add that it is perfectly possible, although it would be Lord Goodhart: My Lords, I start by declaring an somewhat unusual, for somebody to be accountable to interest as a member of Transparency International Parliament for a decision that was not that of a Minister. UK, which is the United Kingdom’s branch of However, although I disagree with this provision, I do Transparency International. I was also a member of not think that that is a cause for any change in the Bill, the Joint Committee that considered this Bill in pre- because it is not a matter for the Bill; if the position of legislative scrutiny. the Attorney-General is to be changed in this respect, that needs to be dealt with in a separate Bill. As I said while speaking in the Queen’s Speech debate, this Bill is long overdue. Our current law is Lord Lyell of Markyate: My Lords, during the based on Acts of 1889, 1906 and 1916. The previous 10 years that I was a law officer—and I watched my attempt to reform our legislation on corruption was noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew and Lord abandoned in 2003, when the pre-legislative scrutiny Havers before that—when acting as Attorney-General committee was very critical of the draft Bill—here, I one was not acting as a member of the Government; support the tribute from the noble and learned Lord, one was acting as an independent law officer of the Crown. Lord Mackay of Clashfern, to my old friend the late One would rather have been swallowed up by the earth Lord Slynn. However, it is virtually a unanimous view than have allowed anything in the nature of an ordinary that the current Bill is a great improvement on its 2003 ministerial duty to affect one’s judgment. That was the predecessor and I entirely agree with what the noble tradition with which I came into the department. Lord, Lord Waddington, said on that. So far as the work of the Joint Committee was Lord Goodhart: My Lords, I have the greatest respect concerned, after its first meeting I thought that we for the views of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell would never come to an agreement about the changes of Markyate, on this. He, too, was a member of the to the law that were needed, but I was wrong. The Joint Committee. But however high the standards—and committee’s report was ultimately unanimous. I think I think that they were of the highest for both him and that I speak for all its members in being very grateful the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew—it increases to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, for his the risk if somebody both holds the job of being the chairmanship. Many of the recommendations of the legal adviser to the Government and is a member of committee were, as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, that Government. I would prefer that that did not happen. said, accepted by the Government. In particular, the However, as I said, it is not a matter for this Bill. Government have introduced Clause 7 of the Bill as a I have never understood why at the time of the replacement for Clause 5 of the draft Bill, which abandonment of the investigation of BAE’s dealings would have made it difficult—and, I believe, virtually with Saudi Arabia the then Attorney-General, the impossible—to obtain the conviction of a company, noble and learned Lord, Lord Goldsmith, pushed even if it had failed to take reasonable steps to prevent the decision to discontinue the investigation on to the bribery. That is an extremely important change, which director of the Serious Fraud Office rather than taking greatly improves the Bill. that decision himself. It does seem that he would have Another issue on which the Government moved been the appropriate person to take that decision. some way—although in my view not far enough—towards Now I come to what I see as the most serious the recommendations made by the committee was in problem in the Bill. Clause 13 of the draft Bill gave relation to guidance. The committee decided that guidance exemption from bribery offences for acts authorised needs to be given on what amount to adequate procedures by the Secretary of State so far as necessary for the as a defence for a company to prosecution under functions of—to use their nicknames—MI5, MI6 or Clause 7. In paragraph 16 of their response to the GCHQ. The committee was highly critical of this on committee’s report, the Government propose non- the grounds that, first, it was not satisfied that domestic statutory guidance. What the Government propose to intelligence agencies—that is, MI5 and GHCQ—in put into that guidance seems, so far as I am aware fact needed the power to bribe; secondly, the Bill was of it, reasonable. However, non-statutory guidance not the right vehicle for extending the powers of the presumably means that nothing in the Bill will require intelligence agencies; and, thirdly, it was doubtful in this Government or any future Government to produce the eyes of the committee whether Clause 13 met the guidance. The provision of guidance is sufficiently United Kingdom’s international obligations, especially important to require the insertion into this Bill of a in so far as exemption could be extended to activities duty for the Government to provide it. In the Bill’s that were intended to protect the UK’s economic present form, there is no such duty. interests, not just to national security or serious crime. 1093 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1094

[LORD GOODHART] Notwithstanding these criticisms, I believe that this The Government’s reaction to that recommendation is a good Bill; indeed, it is basically an excellent Bill. It was quite startling. They replaced Clauses 13 and 14 is certainly important, particularly because the United from the draft Bill, as the noble and learned Lord, Kingdom’s legislation is plainly inadequate and needs Lord Mackay of Clashfern, has already pointed out, updating. There are issues that need to be debated— with Clause 12 of the present Bill. Not only do they fail to accept any of the points put forward by the The Earl of Onslow: I thank the noble Lord for committee, but they are substantially extending the giving way. I know that I am speaking later, but he has exemptions. The security services are exempt, but so raised a very important question in my mind about are law enforcement organisations engaged in the subsidiary companies, and I agree with him. Would it prevention, detection or investigation of serious crime be possible to put an order-making power into the Bill and the Armed Forces on active service. The exemptions that would enable that point to be covered later, without do not require any action by the Secretary of State in having to go back to primary legislation? advance. Furthermore, the SFO and a senior representative of the police both said in written evidence to the Joint Lord Goodhart: I have to say, perhaps putting on Committee that exemptions should not apply to them. my hat as the chair of the Delegated Powers Committee, I refer to pages 191 and 321 of Volume II, the evidence that such a power might have some difficulty in getting volume, of the committee’s report. through that committee. There are issues that need to be debated in Committee, The question of giving exemption to the Armed but I do not believe that they are fundamentally Forces was never put to the committee for consideration. controversial and I hope that this Bill will be enacted In their response to the committee, the Government soon. have given no explanation of the circumstances in which the Armed Forces might require the use of those 4.16 pm exemptions. It is arguable that there are some circumstances Lord Pannick: My Lords, I join other noble Lords in which obtaining information could be regarded as in warmly welcoming the Bill and commending the falling within the scope of the Bribery Bill and that they work of the Joint Committee. I hope that the Bill will therefore need some form of exemption—for instance, be enacted speedily and push this country up the if MI6 were to pay a person employed in a uranium league table of the least corrupt countries, from a enrichment plant somewhere in the Middle East to tell disappointing 17th place, if I understood the Minister it what was happening there. However, if an employee correctly, to a Champions League position. in a company that is conducting a major fraud gives I will focus my comments on Clause 12. Like the information to the SFO or the police that will assist them noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, I regard Clause 12 as the in arresting those responsible, I cannot see that giving most controversial provision of the Bill, providing as that information, whether paid for or not, can possibly it does a defence for certain bribery offences for persons be regarded as an improper performance of an employee’s engaged in law enforcement functions, the work of the functions. If that is right, the action of the SFO or the security and intelligence services, and the conduct of police in paying informers or deciding not to prosecute the Armed Forces. Such exemptions inevitably raise them is plainly not bribery. If there is any doubt about difficult and sensitive questions about the rule of law. that, a simple amendment would put it beyond doubt As the Minister has already mentioned, your Lordships’ and would make a large part of Clause 12 unnecessary. Constitution Committee, of which I am a member, Whatever the position may be for MI6, I do not believe has published a report critical of Clause 12, which I that the exemption is needed for law enforcement agencies commend to the House. I should like to mention and no justification has yet been put forward for briefly my three main concerns about Clause 12. extending exemptions to the Armed Forces. My first concern is to understand why the Government There is one other matter of concern. The Bill does think that it is appropriate to create an exemption for not deal adequately with the possible liability of a the domestic intelligence services from the criminal company for acts of bribery committed by a subsidiary offence of bribery.The Joint Committee, at paragraph 203 or a joint venture company in which it holds an of its report published in July, said that it had heard, interest. The committee was unable to come up with “no persuasive evidence of a need for the domestic intelligence proposals for how to deal with this because of shortage agencies to be granted an authorisation to bribe”. of time; we were allowed only a very busy 10 weeks in Why then have the Government not accepted the which to consider the Bill. As a result, the Bill does not recommendation of the Joint Committee to remove include any recommendations for how this problem is the clause creating this defence? In any event, surely to be dealt with. Plainly, there is a gap. Apparently, the Joint Committee was correct when it said, at this will be left to be considered by the Law Commission paragraphs 202 and 203 of its report, that if the when it is reviewing the law on corporate liability for intelligence services believe that they can justify exemptions crime. That may be some time off and meanwhile the from the criminal law, the case should be put before absence of rules in the Bill could lead to serious this House and the other place by means of an appropriate loopholes in criminal prosecutions. I would have preferred amendment to the Intelligence Services Act 1994. to have had this matter covered by the Bill, but I am My second concern is that the Government’s response afraid, given the approach of the end of the present to the report of the Joint Committee on these defences Parliament, it is not practical to include any amendments was not to narrow the exemptions from those in the for this purpose during the time available. The gap will draft Bill, but to increase them. The exemption in the have to be closed at a later date, but that date needs to draft Bill was confined to the security and intelligence be as soon as possible. services. The Government now seek to include in 1095 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1096

Clause 12 an exemption for law enforcement agencies—a original draft Bill to deal with. We on the scrutiny category which is broadly defined to cover bodies such committees also had the benefit of in-depth analysis as HM Revenue and Customs, local authority trading by Transparency International UK. I declare an interest standards officers and environmental health officers. as a member of its Advisory Council. The Government’s That is a very broad description indeed. response has been unfailingly constructive. I would The Joint Committee noted at paragraph 195 of its say one could welcome this Bill unreservedly would report that the evidence it received from the police and this not risk putting some of your Lordships out of the Serious Fraud Office on the defence for the intelligence their job of examining legislation. services did not suggest that the police and SFO It is important to see this Bill in a wider context. It believed that they needed any such defence for their does not just reform our outdated and piecemeal own activities. Why then has an exemption for law domestic law on bribery.It tackles wrongs—evils—suffered enforcement agencies now been added to the Bill? In by people far beyond our frontiers. To quote the G8 what circumstances is it envisaged that the police, 2006 communiqué: Revenue and Customs, and local authority trading “Large-scale corruption ... can have a devastating effect on standards officers should be permitted to bribe people? democracy, the rule of law and economic and social development. Is there any evidence at all that the absence to date of We recognise that corrupt practices contribute to the spread of such a power has hindered the effective performance organised crime and , undermine public trust in government of law enforcement functions? and destabilise economies. Corruption can deter foreign investment, stifle economic growth and sustainable development and undermine My third and final concern about Clause 12 is that legal and judicial systems. The net effect of corruption is felt most in any event it does not contain the protection for the directly, and disproportionately, by the poor”. public interest contained in Clauses 13 and 14 of the The Government’s impact statement on the Bill, draft Bill. The draft Bill confined the intelligence and which is a very good read, gives chapter and verse security services exemptions to those cases where a about the deleterious effect of bribery on business as prior authorisation to the act of bribery was given by well as on economic and social development. Your the Secretary of State or a senior official. If law Lordships may also know that the combination of the enforcement functions are to be added, prior authorisation huge increase in global trade and the wide reach of should be by the Attorney-General. exemplar legislation such as the American Foreign It is quite unacceptable for any intelligence officer Corrupt Practices Act have changed the climate of of whatever rank, any employee of the CPS or any business opinion about getting away with bribery, for employee of a local authority carrying out law enforcement good. In a way, the OECD anti-bribery convention is functions to be able to decide for themselves to carry a subsidiary instrument to the change in reality. It is out an act of bribery. Cases of bribery by public none the less the mark against which our Bill today officials in order to carry out an intelligence function, will be judged. a security function or a law enforcement function I think the Bill will comply, and the UK can hold its would, I hope we can all agree, be very rare exceptions. head up among the company of OECD nations. But Any such departure from the rule of law must surely there is one area where I also should like to press my be carefully considered in advance by very senior noble friend the Minister. This is the defence for the officers of the state—not least to avoid any later security services. I welcome the fact that the Government dispute as to whether the officer was genuinely acting have tried to meet some of the reservations of the for official purposes, as well as to ensure that such scrutiny committee, but I recall the OECD stricture conduct was truly necessary and proportionate. that while the purpose of national security is a valid Paragraph 200 of the Joint Committee’s report refers defence, other actions undertaken by security services—for to the evidence of the noble and learned Baroness, the instance, in the service of national economic interests—are Attorney-General. She emphasised to the Joint Committee not. The defence in the current Bill covers any proper that the prior authorisation procedure was an important function of the security services, which includes more safeguard. I respectfully agree. than national security. I see that the Constitution Those are my main concerns about Clause 12. I give Committee is of the same mind, as well as all previous notice to the Minister that I—and, I am sure, many speakers in this debate. Can my noble friend offer a other noble Lords—very much look forward to debating further narrowing of this defence? with him during the passage of the Bill whether Clause 12 Other noble Lords have enumerated the many positive is necessary, whether it is proportionate and whether it provisions of the Bill, both in the debate on the is consistent with the rule of law. gracious Speech and earlier today. Indeed, the noble 4.25 pm Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, from the Liberal Democrat Front Bench, called it “a beacon”. I will not Baroness Whitaker: My Lords, this is a very, very duplicate what other noble Lords have said, but simply well worked-on Bill and it shows it. We have had time conclude by saying that this is a remarkably good Bill to think about the subject—some may say, and have which has made a difficult subject manageable and said, too much time, but at least the result is worth it. implementable. Even more good will ensue when it Particularly, the judicious and vigorous chairmanship becomes law, and that must be soon. of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, enabled the scrutiny committee on the second draft Bill to 4.29 pm reach unanimity in even the most difficult areas. The chairmanship of the late and much lamented Lord Lord Patten: My Lords, in declaring all my business Slynn of Hadley was valiant too, but, as the noble interests, as the Bill relates to commercial organisations Lord, Lord Waddington, said, he had a much worse in particular, I should also declare—I hope that this 1097 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1098

[LORD PATTEN] to try to win the contract. That sort of company does not shock your Lordships too much—that I am provides a positive incubating nursery for bribery. The not a lawyer either. Those are the two declarations board of that company is to blame, straight and that I should make at the beginning of my speech. simple. Corporate adherence to the law must always I have four points to make: on the terrible and be prefigured by the construction of a strong ethical terribly corrosive effects that bribery has; on the need corporate culture that starts at the very top with the for strong corporate cultures, above all else, in civil chairman, the chief executive, the chief operating and commercial society, as the bedrock of any defence officer and the non-executive directors, as it does in against bribery; on the beneficial effects of the new the best of the world’s great companies, with ethical duties laid on companies and, therefore, on their training being the norm. directors—in particular, on non-executive directors; This is certainly not the place for a quick or slow and on the need to ensure that our security, intelligence, seminar on how all that can be done but, in essence, police and military are not impeded in any way in their every employee, great or small, should in such companies sometimes covert but often life and/or property-saving have a lively sense of, put simply, whether they would activities. From what I have heard so far, I may be a mind what they are about to do in private being writ sole voice arguing that in your Lordships’ Chamber large in public. That is a very simple test. In other this afternoon. words, would you mind your family or friends knowing First, although I must say to the noble Lord, Lord what you are about to do, and the media then studiously Bach, that I deplore the length of time that it has reporting it? That is the key question. It has the great taken for the Government to table the Bill after what benefit of also being a very simple question. I have has been said about the issue since 1997, I am glad that observed good practice in international companies they have done it. I also note that they are doing where that is drawn again and again to the attention of something that Ministers are usually rightly restrained individuals. in claiming, which is introducing legislation with a Thirdly, directors of UK companies are moving strong moral component. It would be risky for the into a new world of duties to prevent bribery, which I Minister to say that in his own praise, but I recognise hope will be no mere box-ticking exercise. Indeed, it that. Bribery at home and, in particular, abroad, cannot be because it will demand a demonstrable set undermines the rule of law, attacks the excellent principles of adequate procedures being put in place to prevent of fair competition, as the Minister said, but, worst of bribes being paid. Only if this is demonstrable will all, is a morally destructive crime that has devastating they be able to seek mitigation and to avoid corporate effects on the poor and on the human rights of those liability. This is the world of strict liability as I, no in our less well off countries. lawyer, understand it. This happens because bribery often diverts scarce I say with respect—which I understand is the correct resources in poor countries towards the purchase of term to use—to my noble and learned friend Lord inferior products. I have observed that in a business Mackay of Clashfern that no amount of guidance context. It certainly corrupts financial regulators, where from the business ministry will help in this context. It there are such persons present in third-world countries, is the companies themselves which, if challenged, must and police forces alike with devastating abandon, and be able to demonstrate that they have those procedures sometimes leads to attendant violence. All those economic in place; appealing to some bit of ministerial guidance and human costs are usually felt most directly by the will not help. poor, just as development and democracy are undermined, It is not for the provisions of Clause 7 to spell out as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, said in his introductory how this defence could be erected—that is not for an remarks. to do. However, it is clear that to do Secondly, although I welcome both the economic so, companies would be taking a great risk merely to and moral purpose of the Bill, all the new sanctions rest on some once-written but then quickly forgotten and penalties that it introduces will be of naught to code of practice, which is dished out to employees on companies where that sort of behaviour has been the first day that they come into service but not almost institutionalised unless it is paralleled by deep, refreshed on an annual basis. I believe that ethics lasting and profound corporate cultural change. See a training on an annual basis is critical. It should start at company—I have observed this—where bribery has the top, with the chairman, chief executive and board. been used and, generally speaking, you are looking at They should be trained and refreshed just as much a company with a weak and devious corporate culture, annually as those lower down the corporate structure. with scant regard for proper ethical behaviour, little or In other words, we need to show a continuum of no ethical training for staff, weak or dismissive board corporate behaviour that illustrates that the culture of practices and, worst of all, an absolute determination ethical behaviour is underpinned in this way. to win contracts at all costs. That characterises companies Doubtless there will be a huge growth in the consultants where bribery has been used—here I speak about industry, with people advising boards, for considerable western European and, alas, UK companies. fees, on how to do this. That is not something for An example of this that has been used before is consultants; it is for the boards to take on board when such a company comes into receipt of proprietary themselves. information concerning products or intellectual property Fourthly and lastly, I am very glad—and thus far I alike that belongs to a competitor who is chasing the am a lonely voice—that there seems to be reasonable self-same enticing contract. Rather than sending that cover in Clause 12, subject to all the forthcoming information straight back unread, it uses the information probing in Committee, for our intelligence services, 1099 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1100 police forces and Armed Forces, in that financial and Bill as a whole, I believe that it is one that we should related advantages may be in the interests of security. I readily accept. However, as a lay member of the was saddened to see the inability of lobbying organisations Constitution Committee I draw attention to the such as Transparency International, which has done committee’s report and suggest that, when one looks useful work, to recognise the need to protect life and at Clause 12, there is a weakness in the Bill in its limb in this way in extremis. Notwithstanding what present form. the Minister said in his emollient introductory remarks I would not base my criticisms of Clause 12 on who to Transparency International’s suggestions, in its view, is included or not included but would adopt a more recently circulated to your Lordships, it would have holistic approach by suggesting that this provision is preferred Clause 12 to be omitted completely. That is not needed. I would suggest that the defence is put what Transparency International said. This is a grudging there no doubt to give reassurance to those who are acceptance, which I imagine will be played out during referred to. However, if the defence were to be available— the debates on Clause 12; I do not envy the Minister in and a very heavy burden is placed on those who seek having to handle those particular debates. to rely on this defence, having regard to it being I was equally surprised to see the conclusion of the necessary to do so—I would be confident that the Joint Committee on the draft Bribery Bill. It says at Attorney-General, if it be the Attorney-General whose paragraph 30 on page 88 of volume 1 of its report, consent was required, or one of the three directors published on 16 July 2009, that there was no, who are referred to in the Bill, would consent to a “need for the domestic intelligence agencies to be granted an prosecution. It seems to me that if it was clear that authorisation to bribe”. what was done was necessary in the public interest, Tell that to those involved with the police or the then that is not a situation when prosecutions should domestic intelligence agencies which, domestically—not occur. It should be no problem for the agencies referred abroad in some conveniently distant uranium enrichment to to be able to inform the law officer or director plant in Iran—may, using public money for the covert concerned that that is the position. end of gaining intelligence via an informer, be in a As to whether it should be the Attorney-General or position to prevent public carnage in some terrorist one of the directors concerned, I would support it outrage. being done by the Attorney-General. Recent experience I fully accept that I have not read things in great has shown that there are great benefits in the person enough detail; I should have consulted the noble Lord, who has the onerous task of exercising that responsibility Lord Pannick, for a quick tutorial, because I recognise being clearly responsible to Parliament. It is also beneficial that having trading standards officers et cetera embraced for Parliament to be able to question why a consent in this provision is probably a little bit daft, even for has not been given. Furthermore, I suggest that the someone as robust on these issues as myself. But that message given by the presence of the defence will be said, I believe that it would be entirely wrong to deny seized on by detractors of this country, in so far as domestic intelligence, and indeed police officials, the their activities in relation to corruption are concerned, opportunity to use public money covertly to prevent as not giving the necessary support that those who terrorist outrages. Can you imagine if they did not and want to eliminate corruption would expect. there was a terrorist outrage? The whole public inquiry The other matter I want to refer to is guidance. industry would explode around us and many people Normally, it is not desirable for guidance to enter into would make a lot of money from attending to it. areas of criminal law. On the evidence I heard in the committee, I have no doubt that a case can properly be 4.40 pm made that this is an exceptional Bill in this respect. What is meant by “bribery” is particularly difficult to Lord Woolf: My Lords, as has already been anticipated define exactly. It is no doubt because of those difficulties by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, I shall begin by making that the Minister indicated in a letter of 8 December a disclosure of my position as chairman of the committee this year to the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, chairman that investigated ethical standards in the company of the Constitution Committee, that it is the intention BAE. My experience in that capacity makes it obvious of the Government not only that there should be that I should, and do, welcome the Bill. Legislation of guidance but that the guidance should be issued before this quality was sorely needed, and it is my hope that it the legislation is brought into force. If the Government will play the part that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, have given an assurance of that nature, which I have indicated, by helping to restore the reputation of this no doubt the Minister will be happy to confirm today, country. I have no doubt as a result of very instructive then it is of not great significance whether it is statutory evidence that I received from Transparency International or non-statutory guidance. What I apprehend will and others, including the OECD, that the lack of happen is the very difficult situations that can arise legislation was something that they were very concerned will seriatim be the result of decisions by those who about, because they felt that this country was failing have responsibility in this area. A common law will to perform its natural role as a global leader of proper then develop with examples of situations which fall on ethical standards. I therefore wish the Bill a speedy either side of the line. That there has to be a line, and enactment. that it is a grey and indistinct line, is beyond doubt. I do, however, acknowledge that the difficulties of One already knows of the situations that can occur: producing a workable Bill are great indeed, and obviously we have heard of one example, and I could give many the history explains in some way the delay that has more, showing that the industrial world is not sure occurred in producing a draft Bill that is suitable to how this legislation is to be applied. That it should be come into law. From my perspective, looking at the applied is of great importance. 1101 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1102

[LORD WOOLF] appeared before the Joint Committee. But unnecessary It is right, as the noble Lord, Lord Patten, indicated, or undue complexity, particularly coupled with any that there has to be a change of culture inside companies. sense of unfairness, runs the risk of making offences It is very important that people in these companies that in concept, although usually not in execution, are should realise what they have to focus on. In practice, quite simple unnecessarily difficult to prove. I will what is or is not corrupt is very easy to identify even highlight briefly some of the key issues on which we though it is difficult to define. In particular, it has to should focus. be clear that for bribery it is not a sufficient justification The first—I feel that I have an uphill task in making to say, “I could not get the business otherwise”. If you this point—is the complexity of Clauses 1 to 5 of the have to offer a bribe to obtain business, any company Bill and the meaning of “improper”, which has been concerned for its reputation will decide not to do that chosen as the key word to summarise the necessary business. That has to be the clear message. It is difficult, criminality. I say this with some diffidence, because no in producing a criminal offence, to give that message, one has greater respect for Lord Slynn; I was his first but it has to be made clear in guidance. So I welcome pupil. He had an immensely difficult task and the law that aspect of the Bill. commissioners worked extremely hard on this, for which I pay them tribute. However, I share the view of 4.50 pm some leading practitioners at the Bar that these clauses Lord Lyell of Markyate: My Lords, I declare an are complex and difficult to unravel. interest as a member of the Constitution Committee The word “improper” in the dictionary has a large and of the Joint Committee on the draft Bill and as a number of meanings that fall well short of criminality— former law officer who was involved in a number of “abnormal”, “incorrect”, “unsuitable”, “ill adapted”, major bribery and corruption cases during my period “unbecoming”,“indecorous”and“indecent”areallexamples. in office. I strongly support the Bill in principle, but it The noun “impropriety” includes “inappropriateness” is important that we scrutinise carefully its detailed and “unseemliness”, as well as the more pertinent provisions. These cover: first, the law of bribery as it is “morally improper conduct”. There is a serious argument to apply in the United Kingdom; and, secondly—this about whether the concepts of corruption and/or dishonesty is particularly important—the law that in future is to should be a requirement of the offence. I think that we apply to the bribery of foreign public officials. need to revisit that carefully. There is quite properly a strong desire, led by bodies In one of the leading cases, the Lord Chief Justice, such as the Corner House and Transparency International, though hesitating over whether dishonesty was essential, to seek to do everything that we can to stamp out the handed down a ruling that the conduct must at least widespread bribery that exists in substantial areas of have been the “product of an evil mind”, which seems foreign trade and commerce. But this is a complex to be a distinction without a great deal of difference. area. If the new law is to be successful, it must be Juries understand well what is meant by “dishonesty” drafted with as much clarity as possible and it must be and, indeed, by “corrupt”. Whatever the Bill says, they seen to be fair. will be reluctant to convict an individual unless they Juries are on the whole not at all reluctant to are satisfied that the underlying conduct was dishonest convict for the very nasty criminal offences generally or corrupt. Provided that the prosecution can marshal known as bribery and corruption. As the Law and present the basic facts, the dishonesty or corruption Commission has said, in general 95 per cent of the of the conduct usually sticks out like a sore thumb. public have a good understanding of what these words There are alternative solutions to the present drafting, mean. The Director of Public Prosecutions confirmed at which I hope the Government will look constructively in writing to the Joint Committee on the draft Bill that and, if we can do a good job, perhaps favourably. One the state of the current law has not in the past 15 years is the Australian solution, which will be well known to caused any serious problems in bringing prosecutions. the department. It is not as concise as the present law I know from my own experience going back to 1979 in England, but it sets out the requirements very that the same was true during that period. The main clearly and has the support of practitioners with a problem in prosecuting bribery has never been the law; deep knowledge of the subject. The other is to seek to rather, it is the obtaining of the necessary evidence. produce—this may involve some rather hard Christmas None the less, during my period in office, some very work—a shorter opening clause or clauses, amalgamating serious cases of bribery were prosecuted successfully. the provisions of the common law offence of bribery The first of the Guinness cases, involving Messrs Saunders, and the statutory provisions of the Acts of 1889, Ronson, Parnes and another, was one example of 1906 and 1916, each as amended by succeeding Acts massive bribes. Other cases involved a series of carefully and finally by Section 12 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime planned bribes in relation to contracts for the supply and Security Act 2001. There is a great deal of overlap of expensive equipment in connection with the production in the wording of those Acts and consolidation is a of North Sea oil. proper and potentially useful approach. Some supporters of the Bill believe that the fulfilment Other matters on which we must focus are the of our OECD obligations, which I strongly support, absence of the defence recommended by the Law would produce a radical change. Clause 7 of the Bill Commission at pages 128 to 136 of its October 2008 imposes a duty on commercial organisations to prevent report, summarised at paragraph 7.49, to the effect bribery. This will, I think, have a significant beneficial that the person alleged to have offered the bribe has a effect. I was personally impressed by the seriousness defence if they show on the balance of probabilities with which the duty to prevent bribery seemed to be that they reasonably believed that they were legally taken by the representatives of major businesses who obliged or legally permitted to do so by the law of the 1103 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1104 foreign country in question. That may worry some 5.03 pm colleagues and noble Lords who were on the Joint Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, I was a Committee; we had some discussion on it, but it member of the Joint Committee under the able deserves to be revisited. Should such a law be a written chairmanship of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of law? I am inclined to think that it should, but this is Culross, which made a very thorough examination of the real world. Some of the more sophisticated countries the draft Bill, heard many witnesses and published its where this kind of corruption has taken place will report in July this year. In consequence, I come to the probably find it only too easy to produce a convenient Bill now before us with some knowledge of the past written law, but some of the less sophisticated countries legislation and the current proposals. may not produce any written law, but may indulge in practices that put the businesses in question in real I say to the Minister at the outset that I support this difficulties. Maybe guidance will help; maybe it will not. Bill. The Government have done well to tackle the need for better legislation to deal with bribery and I I agree strongly with my noble and learned friend hope that we can complete the examination of the Bill Lord Mackay of Clashfern about the role of the before the general election. In the past decade, since Attorney-General. Noble Lords might expect me to the United Kingdom signed the OECD anti-bribery say that. At present, the Attorney-General must approve convention at the end of 1997, there have been a all such prosecutions. There are not so many that it is number of reviews of the United Kingdom’s bribery an undue burden and I believe that it is beneficial to legislation, including two Law Commission reviews, as the proper control by government in its very broadest well as the draft anti-corruption Bill in 2003, which sense. I draw the distinction between government and was not taken forward. Now we are on much firmer the prosecuting authorities, because the Government ground and I hope that we can achieve this better do not prosecute; it is prosecuting legislation. authorities who prosecute. However, it is important that somebody answerable in this House or the other As this is Second Reading, I shall make some broad place should have ultimate responsibility for that and comments on the Bill. It is a major Bill and a clean-sweep should carry it out in as good a manner as humanly Bill: it sweeps away entirely the Public Bodies Corrupt possible. Under the Bill, any Crown prosecutor could Practices Act 1889 and the Prevention of Corruption bring a case. Much more supervision is needed than Acts 1906 and 1916 and replaces the common law that. It is not just any Crown prosecutor; it is prosecutors offences. Clean-sweep Bills are quite rare—we do not for local authorities and the other major prosecuting have many of them—but I like them. In this case it was authorities. a wise decision to go the way the Government have gone. In place of these Acts, the Bill introduces two YourLordships’ Select Committee on the Constitution general offences: the offence of bribing another person made a number of points about the security services and the offence of being bribed. It abandons the under Clause 12. Those points have already been extremely existing agent principal system and establishes a model well made by other noble Lords, so I will not repeat based on an intention to induce improper conduct. We them, but this is something that has to be looked at have to ask ourselves whether this is a better system. I with great care. In my opinion, there must be a law say, unhesitatingly, yes. The existing agent principal officer or a Minister who is answerable to Parliament. basis has given rise to various difficulties in establishing Finally, we need to tackle the problem of debarment how it applies in particular cases; the system now under EU law of any business convicted of bribery or proposed is direct and more appropriate to the of failing to prevent bribery from ever again competing investigation and prosecution of this crime. for an international contract. The has Although most attention has been on cases or been praised, to a great extent rightly, for leading the allegations about large defence contracts abroad, it is way in 1977 with its Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, important to stress—this has not been mentioned but it has since put together a pretty elaborate scheme much so far—that the Bill applies fully to home-grown of pre-contract clearance. , too, has put in bribery in the United Kingdom as well; its application quite an elaborate system: if someone looks like being goes right across the board. That is important. It also convicted, you then put the case into suspended animation responds directly to the criticism of the United Kingdom, and in a sense put them on probation so that they do notably in relation to the OECD convention, and it not get a conviction and are not prevented—so long as should be beneficial to our international standing. they behave themselves in the future—from continuing In deciding what is expected of a person performing to compete. It is important that there should be a level a function or activity, the test is what a reasonable playing field if we are to carry the confidence of the person in the UK would expect. In a situation abroad, business community. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord where United Kingdom laws do not apply, local practice West, accepted that point when I made it in my speech and custom are not to be taken into account—this is on the Loyal Address. I hope that the Government will an important point—unless that is required by the be able to say more about it in the course of our written law of the country in question. The net effect proceedings. of this change is much stricter than the current I well understand the Government’s desire to pass arrangements. this Bill. I shall do everything that I can constructively The Bill creates two new offences. First, it creates to help and, I hope, improve it without delaying it. the separate offence of bribing a foreign public official. But a flawed Bill could do more harm than good. I This is closely in line with the OECD convention, on wish it well and look forward to playing a part in the which the definitions draw. It has a wide coverage. future. However, it is realistic to recognise that there may be 1105 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1106

[LORD WILLIAMSON OF HORTON] It is unusual to have a Second Reading debate that cases where a person seeking a bribe is not, strictly approximates to a love fest—I am sure that the Minister speaking, a public official; he might be, for example, will take that on board—but this is a very good Bill an influential member of a political party in the and I repeat my view that, subject to the comments country in question. There are difficulties. None the that I have made and what is going to be examined in less, the clause as it stands is certainly justified. Committee, including Clause 12, the Bill deserves to Secondly, Clause 7 creates an offence of failure to go on to the statute book. prevent bribery, which can be committed only by relevant commercial organisations. Companies or 5.13 pm partnerships must obviously examine their organisations Lord Borrie: My Lords, I add my welcome for the to ensure that they do not risk breaching this new Bill. So many noble Lords have welcomed it that the clause. I expect the first reaction of companies and last speaker referred to our debate as “a love-fest”. I partnerships to the arrival of the Bill will be to look at am not sure it is quite that, bearing in mind the their organisation. number of detailed criticisms that have been made, The Bill has an extra-territorial application. In but this is certainly a more soundly based attempt general, I do not like extra-territorial application but than earlier ones to create a comprehensive, effective bribery is perhaps one of the clearest examples of law of bribery. It owes a great deal to the work of the potential offences that cross the territorial divide. Actions Law Commission, especially its 2008 report with the abroad are caught by the Bill if the person performing rather odd title Reforming Bribery. I think I know them is a British national, a person who is ordinarily what they meant; it was just that the semantics was resident in the United Kingdom, a UK incorporated slightly odd. The Government are to be congratulated body or a Scottish partnership. on implementing a major Law Commission report. The Bill will assist in the battle against bribery in all Finally, I have two points that are not in the Bill but part of our commercial and public life. I see it as which have been discussed already to some degree. significant for international trade, where bribery and First, there is the question of guidance on the Bill. I corruption, if they exist, pollute the very basis of trust welcome the Government’s acceptance, in their reply and integrity which must underpin healthy, mutually to the Joint Committee, that guidance on the Bill beneficial trading relationships. An expansion of world should be available to commercial organisations. We trade is, of course, highly beneficial to the people of may discuss this point and the timing more fully in the world, but that must be based on the real value of Committee, but I note that the Government propose goods and services, not on backhanders that distort to follow the model of the Corporate Manslaughter true competition. Clearly, if bribery in global dealings and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 and are to publish is to be adequately combated, improvements and greater guidance before the new bribery offences come into clarity in our law need to be complemented by equally force. I quote the reply to the Joint Committee and I strong measures taken by our trading partners. Hence note that whatever we say in this House always has an the importance, as other speakers have indicated, of influence. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, did not say, according with the OECD convention and other “before the new bribery offences come into force”, conventions against bribery across the world. but, This Bill is concerned solely with criminal law, but perhaps I might mention something that I think other “well before the new bribery offences come into force”. speakers have not so far referred to. I hope that We are always making progress as we go along. Ministers can confirm that the civil law in this country Secondly, I agree with the strict conclusion of the can continue to have its uses in combating and acting Joint Committee and with the Government that so-called as a deterrent to bribery. For example, if there is a facilitation payments should continue to be criminalised. contracting party whose agent has been given a bribe However, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay to induce him to place the contract with the bribe’s of Clashfern, I have a certain sensitivity about the donor, the contracting party may sue to recover the difficulties of this point. In this respect and in respect bribe and, more importantly, can rescind and remove of corporate hospitality, it is important that the Crown the effectiveness of the contract. The civil law, usefully, Prosecution Service should respect very formally the applies irrespective of any proof of corruption. principle of proportionality. This is important generally, I believe that the Law Commission was right to but it is also important because the Foreign Corrupt concentrate its attention on the value of criminal law Practices Act of the USA, although it is in many ways in combating bribery. It was also right not only to an excellent Act, none the less exempts from the propose two general offences—which have been described bribery prohibition, and might be summarised as active and passive bribery— but to propose the new, discrete offence of bribing a “facilitating payments for routine governmental action”. foreign official. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, This, it is explained in a note from the US Department indicated that there may be problems with the phrase of Justice, would include such action as payment of “foreign official”, especially if that is defined too bribes for loading and unloading cargo and similar narrowly, because in many countries key people who activities. So it is a serious point. At the working level have tremendous influence may not hold an official for companies that are perhaps not of vast size but post that is registered in the local equivalent of Whitaker’s have some external trade or contract, these sorts of Almanac, but are none the less influential. The public payments are important; such companies need to be increasingly resent any possibility of senior company clear that they will be treated fairly. officers trying to hide behind the corporate veil and 1107 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1108 avoid individual responsibility. I am therefore glad I welcome the Bill. I look forward to the Committee that the Government have accepted the Law Commission’s debates. proposal to follow Section 12 of the Fraud Act 2006 5.22 pm by imposing individual criminal liability on any senior company officer—and that does not mean just Viscount Colville of Culross: My Lords, I must directors—who can be said to have consented to or learn to run rather faster round the corridors of this connived at the commission of either of those two House because I missed the kind words that the Minister general offences in the Bill. offered me at the beginning of his speech. Thank you for those. As the chairman of the committee, I ought More controversially, Clauses 7 and 8 create a new to say thank you to some other people as well, starting criminal offence where a commercial organisation fails with my colleagues. We had two excellent clerks. We to prevent the offence of active bribery committed by had the two professors, who were our expert advisers. someone performing services on its behalf. Parliament We had a first-class back-up team. Where would we is generally more cautious about making a sin of have been without the oral and written witnesses, who omission a criminal offence, and rightly so, but—as provided the raw material for what we said? I add to others have pointed out—the organisation will have a that today’s contribution of the noble Lord, Lord defence if it has in place “adequate procedures” to Patten—which was backed up by the noble and learned prevent persons down the line associated with the Lord, Lord Woolf—about the way in which corporate organisation from engaging in bribery. There will be a ethos ought to be applied to this sort of thing. There need for a useful discussion in Committee on the was more detail than I have heard before and I would guidance that the Government have said they will have hoped that it was very useful for the Government. offer—and whether unofficial, non-statutory guidance Perhaps this is an occasion when pre-legislative scrutiny to commercial organisations to assist business is sufficient. by a Joint Committee has proved itself to be a valuable YourLordships will recall that the Law Commission matter. devoted some 20 pages of its report to justifying this There have been some comments, particularly by new criminal offence, and it claimed support from the the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell—who earlier report entitled Business Ethics, Global Companies unfortunately is not in his place—about complexity. and the Defence Industry proposed by the noble and Most speakers have not complained about the complexity learned Lord, Lord Woolf, who spoke earlier in this debate. of the criminal offences that have been, or will be, The noble and learned Lord’s recommendation 9 created by the Bill. I remind the House what happened involves the introduction of a proactive supervisory under the previous law. Professor Horder set it out on role at board level over decisions made further down page two of the evidence book, stating: the line that carry risks of unethical behaviour. The “We started with a law governed by a very vague term, the noble and learned Lord said that company boards notion of ‘corruptly’, and the courts themselves could not agree what that meant in law. There are decisions saying it involves dishonesty, must forbid so-called “facilitation payments”. The use there are other decisions saying that does not involve honesty”. of criminal law is justified by the need to deter companies If that is not complex and confusing, I do not know from giving any support to a culture of bribe-taking. what is. I would have thought it was better to depart The statements of the noble and learned Lord, Lord from that sort of approach and look at what we have Woolf, have been given added impetus by the Law in the Bill. Commission report and now by this Bill. It is important to have concepts that a jury will There is only one other matter that I want to easily be able to understand and apply, and it all leads mention because it has been referred to by a number up to that. A jury will have to consider improper of speakers. I was, as I usually am, impressed by the performance, and the judge will have to direct them on speech of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. It was a what that means because there is quite a lot about it in speech of principle. He was concerned with the rule of the Bill. The jury will have to look at the question of law. He was concerned that Clause 12 adumbrates a the good faith of the person providing the funds, and number of defences that would seem to contravene the at the expectation point that is set out in one of the rule of law and, perhaps even more important as a clauses. practical point, that the Government have not really Complexity could be said to arise from the cases showed chapter and verse what the occasions are when that are listed. Those cases are only examples that the bribes would have been helpful and would have been prosecutors will have before them. They will choose useful under some sort of public interest rubric. one or possibly two of them; they will collect the I was also interested in the points made by the evidence and decide whether to prosecute and, if so, noble Lord, Lord Patten—not at the moment in his under what case. They will then draft an indictment place—in which he referred to examples where a bribe with the particulars—in Scotland this would be done is made to an informer for information and some by the Procurator Fiscal—and present the case to the terrible disaster occurs if that bribe is not given. The jury. On the basis of the facts thus presented, the jury noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, thought that will have comparatively simple decisions to take, and there was something in that—he will correct me if I that must be a huge advantage in a matter of this sort. am wrong—because he indicated that we do not really I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, need these defences so long as the person whose that one does not want complexity, but that is not consent is required for prosecution, such as the Attorney- written into the Bill at all. General, is able and entitled, in the public interest, not We welcome the Government’s response to the Select to go ahead where the public interest suggests that that Committee’s report. I am glad that they have dropped would be a bad thing to do. the question of parliamentary privilege; the Bill was 1109 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1110

[VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS] that is true, it is unnecessary for anybody who has not a good vehicle for that, and it requires more authority in law enforcement or trading standards to general consideration. I am glad that they have clarified have the power to bribe in the United Kingdom. That the non-role of the Attorney-General and the handing must be wrong. over of the decisions to the directors of the other To continue on the issue of trading standards, we prosecuting authorities, which is in their response. have had a continual creeping abuse of power under I also mention something that I do not think anyone the Terrorism Act, RIPA and SOCA powers. For else has: we now include Scotland. After all, the complaint example, a person was arrested for taking photographs by the OECD related to the United Kingdom. The of St Paul’s Cathedral, and I believe the noble Lord, original project was only in relation to England, Wales Lord West, was even stopped under Section 44 of the and , and the Select Committee pressed Terrorism Act. the Government to see if they could not include Scotland as part of the United Kingdom. This has Viscount Colville of Culross: I am involved in running been done, and I am sure the necessary drafting has RIPA, the Act to which the noble Earl has just referred. been correctly put in. I do not think that either trading standards or the Then there is the question of Clause 12. I will say environmental health departments of local authorities no more about that because it is obvious that Committee would normally be referred to as law enforcement stage will be much occupied by that point. agencies. I also welcome what has been said about guidance. The Earl of Onslow: But if I am right, powers The way in which companies are going to comply with derived from RIPA have been used on waste disposal this legislation is not necessarily going to be immediately instances. That is what I am complaining about. On obvious to them, and guidance will be very helpful, Clause 12, the Select Committee report states that law even if it not in a statutory form. It must, however, be enforcement agencies, produced before the offences come into force. That is what the Government have promised, and I am sure “include not only the police, but also HM Revenue and Customs and the UK Borders Agency, as well as local authority trading that they will do what they say. standards and environmental health officers”. The Bill needs to be passed, and I applaud the Those people should not be given the power to bribe. Government for putting it into the programme for this To me, it is as simple as that. short Session of Parliament. We have been under I turn to the Army and the secret services. It is criticism from the OECD for a long time for not perfectly reasonable that the secret services should including anything, including the foreign public officials allow James Bond to bribe the head of SMERSH. offence. We now have it for the whole of the UK. Under those circumstances, the head of SMERSH Another matter that the Government might like to would be acting improperly according to his own apply their minds to is whether it can be extended to lights, but we would want very much to know about it. the and the Overseas Territories, However, such action should be taken only with proper because they are also under our jurisdiction to this prior authority. extent and should occupy the attention of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. There is the saying that you cannot buy an Afghan, you can only rent him. The other day it was noticed It seems that the Government have covered most of that the Italians, using traditions that go back deep the problems raised by the Select Committee, except into the inter-city state politics of the 12th century, for Clause 12. I would suggest to your Lordships that bribed the Taliban to keep quiet all around them, and the criminal offences have been very carefully drafted the area was peaceful. I do not know whether that is and are workable, and I hope that the House will give right or wrong, but it may be possible to argue that this Bill the fair wind that everybody seems to have such behaviour should be allowed as a public interest offered it this afternoon. duty. It was noticeable that after they forgot to tell the French that they had been bribing, 10 or 11 French 5.30 pm people were killed, which was serious. We should not The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, I would first like to hamper the Armed Forces or the dirty work of espionage say what a privilege it was to serve on the Select agents by not allowing them, with high-level prior Committee under the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of consent, to behave in that way. Culross. It was a model of how to run a Select Committee. This is a very good Bill, except for Clause 12. I We have come an awfully long way from the time certainly support it and repeat that it was a privilege to when Talleyrand could pocket a third of the proceeds serve under the noble Viscount, Lord Colville. from the Louisiana Purchase, or Lord Clive could stare into Siraj ud-Daulah’s treasury and state that he 5.35 pm stood astonished at his own moderation. We are, as Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, I enthusiastically has been said, a pretty honest country. follow my noble friend’s encomium on the chairmanship I was very interested in what my noble friend Lord of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross. It was Patten, who is not here, had to say about the possibility a great privilege to sit on his committee—and also of the police informer being bribed. I could easily be rather good fun. wrong here, but it seems to me that paying somebody Many of the points that I might have made on this to turn Queen’s evidence is not paying him to do important Bill have already been made by noble Lords. something improper but to do something proper. I I hope that brevity will not seem superficial. I cannot therefore suggest that the Bill does not cover this. If refrain from making at the outset of my brief remarks 1111 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1112 a disgruntled complaint about the rushed pace at regard, and I agree with the noble and learned Lord, which we were obliged to work. Even the Government Lord Woolf, that it does not matter too much whether called it a very challenging timetable. They can say the guidance is statutory or otherwise. Keeping the that again, although I hope that they will never have to. concept of negligence would have introduced some The whole point of a joint scrutiny committee is quite superfluous complexity when, as I have already frustrated if it is not given a reasonable time for its suggested, complexity is not exactly in short supply in work. I think that the Government acknowledge that this Bill, and I am very glad that the Government now we should have been given a minimum of 12 weeks. agree. We were given 10. In consequence, some aspects of We have heard a great deal about Clause 12 and I our work, notably with oral witnesses, had to be do not need to repeat it, save to say that I thought that inappropriately curtailed. This was a pity, because the the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, made an absolutely great merit of the Bill and its proclaimed purpose is devastating criticism of the decision to keep it. I think that it provides for a new scheme of consolidated that that is right and I listened with much sympathy to bribery offences, to cover bribery here and abroad, in the speech of my noble friend Lord Patten. However, I place of the hotchpotch of legislation—referred to think that we were right to recommend that the clause already—going back at least 120 years. The Minister be removed from the Bill on the basis of the evidence said that it went back to Magna Carta. This is a that had been given. It is worth reminding the House long-called-for undertaking which is well worth taking briefly of what is said at paragraph 202 of our report: time over to be sure that we get it right. “Transparency International UK told us that any decision to pursue these proposals should be taken through a more appropriate The definition of bribery in the early clauses of the piece of legislation”. Bill might have yielded some of its undoubted complexity had we had more time to explore the matter. I am I warmly agree with that. Transparency International afraid that I continue to find it a real candidate for a said: cold towel around the head, and I do not envy those “While we welcome the Government’s openness in acknowledging who will have to explain it to a jury or, in the case of that bribery may be used by the security services, we have the gravest doubts as to whether any worthwhile long-term national legal advisers to corporations, to companies. They interest is served. If the security services can make a case for such may well be hard pressed to explain the Act with the an ‘opt-out’, they should present it for appropriate parliamentary confidence required of them by their employers. For scrutiny; and it should form no part of any general law of my part, at any rate, I shall await with a good deal of bribery”. concern progressive news of how the definition works out. I suggest that it is very hard to argue against that. We It would, however be graceless not to match that said at paragraph 203: disgruntled complaint, and perhaps to exceed it in “We heard no persuasive evidence of a need for the domestic importance, by congratulating the Government on intelligence agencies to be granted an authorisation to bribe. abandoning the old requirement of a principal-and-agent Neither are we persuaded that this draft Bill is the appropriate vehicle to extend the security services’ powers to contravene the relationship and, instead, adopting a conduct test. criminal law”. Time will tell whether hingeing that test upon the concept of improper performance of a relevant function The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, made a very or activity will prove more serviceable than relying on telling point when he said that if it can be shown that the simple—or at any rate, single—adverb “corruptly”. it is in the public interest for such a course to be taken, I note the evidence cited by the noble Viscount, Lord that militates conclusively against a prosecution being Colville, on the varying ways in which courts have authorised. That is another good reason why the treated that. It was obviously an important point. Attorney-General should retain the jurisdiction that she has at present. I am also pleased that for the specific offence of Lastly, and not only as a member of the well-known bribing a foreign official the Government have provided ex-Attorneys club, I was very pleased to read in the that the conduct in question will amount to bribery Government’s response to our report, at paragraph when the official is neither requested nor required by 25, that they do not now intend to bring forward any the applicable written law to be influenced by the offer, legislation relating to the Attorney-General. As my promise or giving of an advantage. In other words, it noble and learned friend Lord Lyell of Markyate said has to be by written law for the conduct not to amount today, parliamentary accountability demands that the to bribery; evidence of established but unwritten custom Attorney-General’s constitutional role remains in place. or whatever will not suffice to exclude it from bribery. We went into this with witnesses with some care We have waited long enough for an acceptable because it is such an important matter—in the commercial anti-bribery Bill to meet both our domestic and our context, in particular. We elicited from them that this international requirements. My strong feeling overall would be an appropriate and practical formulation is that this offering deserves our warm support and and I am grateful that the Government have adopted that we should now get on with seeking to make it it in this amended Bill. even better. Thank goodness, too, that in the new offence targeting 5.44 pm companies which fail to prevent bribery by persons acting on their behalf, the Bill no longer focuses on Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, the book of whether a “responsible person” was negligent rather Ecclesiastes reminds us that there is no new thing than on the collective failure of the company to have under the sun, and bribery and corruption is certainly in place adequate anti-bribery procedures. I am grateful one of the oldest institutions known to man. It has for the assurance that we will have guidance in that riddled the civilisations of China, of Suma, of Greece 1113 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1114

[LORD ELYSTAN-MORGAN] legislation; it is more about the deterrent effect that it and of Rome, and of the British Empire, in many will have and the new standards that it will more respects. It lurks at the very foundation of every clearly endorse than the number of persons who will community and society in the world to some extent. get caught by it. The consideration given in the past 14 years to this There was a note published by the Library of the matter has certainly been comprehensive and rigorous. House of Commons in April this year, dealing with Indeed, one could start earlier than that with the the Bill as it then stood. It set forward this fact: Salmon commission of 1976, which dealt with the between 1997 and 2003 the average number of matter, but the real genesis was the Nolan Committee prosecutions each year for this offence was 21. That is on Standards in Public Life, in its report of 1995. a very low figure, especially considered side by side From that point onwards, there has been an irony. One with the average number of prosecutions for the offence can identify 12 different stages from White Papers, of fraud in the same years, which was of the order of reports, committee examinations—including the sterling 23,000. Nobody would for a moment suggest that only work done by the committee chaired by my noble 21 cases of bribery and corruption occurred in the friend Lord Colville of Culross and the work, already United Kingdom during that period. Nobody would referred to, carried out by the noble Viscount, Lord suggest that it was as low a figure as 210 or indeed Slim. Therefore, one has the sense of legislative soil 2,100. that is well harrowed, but somehow, the Bill ended up—if I may mix my metaphors—in a rather vulgar Offences of bribery and corruption, as every Member sprint, with more rush than would have been anticipated. of the House appreciates, are very different from burglary offences; you know when those have happened. Be that as it may, I am quite sure that the Bill is a With rape offences, you will know when some of those progressive development and one to be greatly welcomed. have happened, as complainants all too often will not I am sure that the Government were entirely correct in go to the police, although when they do the offences centring on the concept of proper or improper behaviour. are recorded. The same applies with robbery and so Once one has the proper heart, core and kernel, the many other offences. Bribery and corruption is not rest of the Bill falls into place. That is very much as like that. There is often no conscious victim. There is happened with the Theft Bill 40 years ago, when the often no overt evidence at all that anybody can track concept of appropriation suddenly took over from all down. the difficulties there had been with the previous Larceny Acts. Nearly everything else then fell into place. It may This is where we come to Clause 12. I have the not be all that simple. The point has been made that utmost respect for the submissions made by the noble the definition of impropriety may be embarrassingly Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, wide in relation to certain prosecutions. Lord Woolf, in this matter. The defences deal with two main areas. One is entrapment, which is not the nicest I wonder whether the Government have thought way of going about a prosecution, nor something that carefully about including, in addition to the question juries like and appreciate. Nevertheless, in some of impropriety, the test of dishonesty. Dishonesty is circumstances it is the only way that the root of evil well understood by juries; it was defined very clearly can ever be got at. In many cases the actual payment by the Court of Appeal in Ghosh 25 or 27 years ago. of money by authorities will be necessary, not because The House will remember the two tests. First, the jury it is right to do so, but because all the other alternatives has to decide the objective test: is the conduct that has are worse. been proven against the defendant such that, according to an objective view, one would regard as dishonest? On that basis, we must have one of two things. That is test one. If the prosecution overcomes that Either one should have Clause 12, with all the checks hurdle, there is the second test, which is seeing through and reservations, including the discretion of the Attorney- the eyes of the defendant. Did the defendant appreciate General and everything else, considered in this matter. that it was dishonest—not according to his base ideas Or we might consider including the test of dishonesty of honesty, but according again to the standards of in relation to these situations. If you have the test of ordinary, decent people? dishonesty, it may not be necessary to have Clause 12. In other words, that is a totally objective test and a The most pertinent remark was made by the noble subjective test according to objective standards. That and learned Lord, Lord Lyell of Markyate, when he may sound complicated, but I do not think that it is. said that it is not the law that is the problem, it is Judges and juries have been able to cope with that very getting at these situations and exposing them. Unless well. Would we lose anything if we had such a test to there is a commitment by the community to invest clarify the meaning of that rather wide term “impropriety” money and human resources in order to smell out and in relation to the main structures of the Bill? I suggest root out these situations, then the main problem will not. remain with us. There may be another reason for introducing a I would like to apologise to the House: in the reference to dishonesty. The Explanatory Memorandum Grand Committee, there is a matter involving the states that it is not anticipated that there will be a very Welsh language, a subject very close to my heart. I considerable increase in the number of prosecutions, would be grateful if the House would forgive me if I nor indeed that there will be any greater pressure on leave now—meaning no any discourtesy to anybody prison places. One may ask rather tartly: if you are who is going to speak—for a matter which I hope will developing a new mouse trap, what is the point if it be dealt with shortly. It is not a complete defence, but I does not catch mice? But that is not the point of this hope it will be a substantial mitigation. 1115 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1116

5.54 pm and that is true. It depends very much on the facts and on the context in which gifts are given or awards made. Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I too was a I learnt my lesson very early on, as a pupil, when my member of the committee which considered the draft pupil master successfully defended a local licensee on Bill. I join in the tributes that have already been paid something to do with bottles—I cannot remember to the chairmanship of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville exactly, it was very small beer. But we succeeded and of Culross, who curbed a number of us—I put myself the licensee sent us both a crate of whisky, which was foremost among the offenders—from asking too many far in excess of the actual subject matter of the charge. questions and conducted those proceedings admirably. My pupil master, who happens to be the brother of the This is a good Bill. It revises ancient legislation that noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, said, “One bottle is completely out of date and that does not cope with I might accept, but a crate?”. He sent the whole lot the present circumstances. I found the G8 St Petersburg back and I learnt a very good lesson. However, I did summit communiqué of 16 July 2006 a very good not follow it entirely because once, in Hong Kong, I statement of the current problems. That communiqué was provided at the end of a successful case with a said: silver plate. It was silver-plated actually, but it had on “Large-scale corruption by individuals who hold senior executive, it an inscription in Chinese which said something judicial, and legislative positions can have a devastating effect on about silver tongue or something. It was actually the democracy, the rule of law, and economic and social development. We recognize”, name of a “Perry Mason”-type television programme, but they put it on this plate. I took it home and hung it said the Governments concerned at the G8, on the wall very proudly until a Chinese visitor said: “that corrupt practices contribute to the spread of organised crime and terrorism, undermine public trust in government, and “That is very, very nice and commendable Martin, but you destabilize economies. Corruption by holders of public office can have hung it upside down”. deter foreign investment, stifle economic growth and sustainable development, and undermine legal and judicial systems. The net It is difficult to define bribery exactly. The noble effect of corruption is felt most directly, and disproportionately, and learned Lord, Lord Lyell of Markyate, said that by the poor”. this Bill is too complicated; that “improper” means a That is a concise statement of the problem as it applies large number of things. Well so it does. However, it is worldwide. only in the court that the facts and the context can be My late noble friend Air Marshal Lord Garden, investigated and it is only then that one can determine whose departure I much regret, was an adviser to what label one should apply to what has happened. Transparency International on the prevention of corruption in the official arms trade. On 14 December What should always be remembered by your Lordships 2006, he said to this House: is that the prosecution rarely has to prove every ingredient in an offence. There is an issue in a case. Sometimes “The United Kingdom has a slightly iffy reputation on the use there are two issues, but generally speaking there is of money to facilitate defence contracts. I should have thought that it was in the national interest to clarify that. If—and I say only one. Under current procedures a defence statement if—commissions are paid in a corrupt way, it makes for an requires the defence to define the issue and then an inefficient defence industry, so we pay more at home for our agreed set of admissions will cover many of the facts defence equipment, and it undermines Governments overseas, so which the prosecution would otherwise have to prove. we reduce our security”.—[Official Report, 14/12/06; col. 1716.] That is modern criminal procedure. That is a very wise insight into the problems of the defence industry in this country. Clauses 1 to 5 can be reduced to a couple of simple In introducing the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, propositions. First, was an advantage given or received— said that he disagreed with the suggestion that the existing that might be the issue in the case. Was it to induce a law is fully compliant with international obligations. I reward or reward a person for the improper performance take issue with him on that. Transparency International of a function? Secondly, is that function caught by the has pointed out problems but the OECD working act? Is it a function that should be performed in good group on bribery also has been active. It has, going faith, impartially or in performance of a trust? That is back five years, made four demands of this country really Clauses 1 to 5. One can pick out the particular that we should revise our law. Whereas the signatories ingredient a case is about, define it and simplify it for to that convention number 36, 35 had complied years the jury. Although the wording of these clauses is ago, but we had not updated our law. The working quite complicated, in fact the case as presented in group said: court will undoubtedly be refined to a very large degree. “In light of the numerous issues of serious concern, the Working Group has requested the UK to provide quarterly A number of issues have been discussed. I refer, written reports on legislative progress”. first, to the question of guidance. On pages 46 and 47 Furthermore, it said: of volume one of its report, the committee refers to “Current UK legislation makes it very difficult for prosecutors the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act 1977 in the United to bring an effective case against a company for alleged bribery States which provides that a rebuttable presumption offences”. will arise that acting in accordance with advice will That was in its report in 2008. So your Lordships will mean that no offence has been committed. The Attorney appreciate that there is a problem which is recognised General of the United States is required to provide an internationally and that this Bill addresses that problem. advisory service so that a company that is wondering Perhaps I may first refer to the definition of bribery. whether a set of proposals could amount to bribery The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, said that can go along to the Attorney General’s office and get what is meant by bribery is difficult to define exactly, advice. 1117 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1118

[LORD THOMAS OF GRESFORD] is always this: is there evidence that makes it more In Hong Kong, the Independent Commission Against likely than not that a prosecution will succeed, and is it Corruption has brought Hong Kong to the standing in every case in the public interest that this prosecution of third of the least corrupt countries in the world by should continue? How much better to leave it to its rigorous stamping out of corruption. It has a prosecutorial discretion than to set out a provision Corruption Prevention Department which created an that none of the other 35 countries which are signatories Advisory Services Group in 1986 which has advised to the convention has. I am sure that it highlights the more than 3,000 private companies. The committee fact that our security services may go around bribing points out, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord people, which is perhaps not a good thing. So surely it Mayhew, mentioned, that there was not time to carry should not be in the Bill that defences of this sort can out a further inquiry to explore the ICAC in any arise. We say that Clause 12 is quite unnecessary. detail. It is a body that I have personal connection It is right that the prosecutorial discretion will now with over a number of years. Something like an advisory rest with the directors of the various agencies such as service would be a very good thing for British industry. the Serious Fraud Office, HMRC and the DPP. We do Indeed, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of not agree that the Attorney-General should play any Clashfern, pointed out that: further part in an individual case. I know that the “The Department of Trade and Industry could give guidance. OECD does not control this country, but it has It would not be conclusive but it would be authoritative”. recommended in specific terms that we should ensure, It so happens that this morning I decided to look at in any amendment to our legislation, that the Attorney- what sort of advisory service is provided by the trade General cannot give instructions to the director of the and industry department. It does indeed have one, so I Serious Fraud Office about individual bribery cases. filled in a query form asking how to avoid bribery in a That is in no way binding upon us, but we should try particular overseas country, and sent it off. I understand to remove prosecutions from any political connection. that it takes around seven days for a reply, and I shall I regard it as unhappy and unhelpful that the redefining inform your Lordships in due course if a response ever of the role of the Attorney-General has been removed comes. from the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill The tax advisory teams of Her Majesty’s Revenue now in another place, but that is an argument for and Customs provide advice to companies and individuals another time. on whether what they are doing is legal so that they I have made some criticisms of the Bill. However, I can act accordingly. I was heartened, as was the noble repeat that it is a good Bill and we on these Benches Viscount, Lord Colville, by the reference of the noble will do our utmost to ensure that it goes through Lord, Lord Patten, to strong ethical corporate structures expeditiously before this Parliament comes to an end. as being the real key to preventing corruption, but I cannot quite go along with him when he says that no 6.10 pm guidance will help in the long term and that you Lord Henley: My Lords, I suspect that the Minister cannot rest on something written on a scrap of paper will be relieved to introduce a Bill from the Ministry of that can be cast aside and forgotten. There is some Justice at last that has not been met with dismay and truth in that, but a proper advisory service might be a criticism from all around the House. It is not, for once, good thing. one of those Christmas-tree Bills that we expect to I turn now to Clause 12. The noble Lord, Lord come from that department, when this issue and that Pannick, said that exemptions such as those outlined issue—all unrelated—are added together, leading to in the clause raise difficult and sensitive questions some rather confused debates on Second Reading and about the rule of law. That took me back to the rather bad legislation at the end. It is not part of what statement made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, described in Goldsmith, in December 2006 where, in talking about the Queen’s Speech debate as a “torrent” of legislation. the stop put on the BAe investigation, he said: It is a single-issue Bill that deals with one discrete “It has been necessary to balance the need to maintain the rule subject. The Ministry of Justice should perhaps make of law against the wider public interest”.—[Official Report, 14/12/06; more use of Bills referred to by the noble Lord, Lord col. 1712.] Williamson, as clean-sweep Bills. That is a good description That is an interesting balance because I would have of a Bill that deals with just one issue and removes thought that the rule of law was the overriding public other Acts from the statute book, possibly making the interest. However, what the noble and learned Lord, statute book better. The noble Lord and his department Lord Mackay of Clashfern, has said about that is: will find it easier to get their legislation, which will be “If it is necessary in the public interest, a prosecution should better legislation, should they follow that line in future. not occur and agencies can inform the director accordingly”. However, no one could accuse the Government of To my mind, that is the way to go about it. If the having produced this legislation in haste. My noble security services have sensitive information and need and learned friend Lord Mayhew complained that to make a submission to, say, the director of the 10 weeks was perhaps too short a time for the committee Serious Fraud Office, surely it is better that it is made to have considered the Bill and that a little more time at an early stage so that the relevant person, the might have been necessary. It has taken more than a Director of Public Prosecutions of whoever it may be decade for the Government to come up with this Bill can consider what is put before him and decide whether since it was first promised. It was the Minister’s boss, it is in the public interest that the prosecution should go now the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State, Jack forward. There is nothing unusual in that because the Straw, who published a paper on consolidation and two-pronged test of the Director of Public Prosecutions amendment of the Prevention of Corruption Acts in 1119 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1120

June 1998 only weeks after becoming . I understand that few individuals have been prosecuted Although the Law Commission published a draft Bill under the existing bribery legislation in recent years, in March 1998, it was not until March 2003 that as I am sure the Minister will be able to confirm in due Ministers laid their draft Corruption Bill before course, although a number of allegations have been Parliament. pursued as part of a fraud charge. No company has We then had the Joint Committee, which was chaired, ever been convicted under the current law aside from as many noble Lords, including my noble and learned Mabey and Johnson, which recently pleaded guilty to friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, have said, by the making corrupt payments after self-reporting them to late Lord Slynn. The committee, which was commissioned the Serious Fraud Office. The fact that this does not to examine the Bill, found that its approach to corruption reflect the scale of the problem represented by bribery was fundamentally flawed. The Bill was then withdrawn may in part be attributed to the difficulties in gathering and the Law Commission was asked to draft a new evidence in support of a prosecution, as my noble and Bill. It was not until March 2009—nearly 12 years learned friend Lord Lyell made clear. after the Government first promised a unified corruption Briefly, although we are broadly satisfied with this Act—that the draft Bribery Bill was published. That Bill and feel that it is worthy of our support, we will was then considered by the committee chaired by my look at the fine detail in Grand Committee, as the Minister noble friend Lord Colville of Culross. I join all Members and the House would no doubt expect us to do. who have spoken today in congratulating my noble friend on chairing that committee. I should say “the We have concerns about how the Bill is framed and noble Lord”, but I say “my noble friend” because we will probe, for example how Clause 7 will work in many years ago I sat at his feet as his pupil, although I practice. An offence of omission is being created for am not sure that much of his talent rubbed off on me. companies that do not prevent bribery. The defence is vague. We will probe what is meant by “adequate I congratulate the noble Lord on his committee’s procedures”. One of the core aims of this legislation report and those other Members of the House, including must be that it is clear and unambiguous. We have the noble Lords, Lord Goodhart and Lord Thomas of heard representations from businesses that seek assurances Gresford, my noble and learned friends Lord Lyell that they are not going to be left in difficulties because and Lord Mayhew, my noble friend Lord Onslow and of the change in the law. A great deal may hinge on the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, on their sterling what sort of guidance is put in place, rather than on work on that committee. the wording of the Bill, and we will certainly be looking at putting down amendments to elicit more A noble Lord: And Lord Williamson. information from the Government on this. I was therefore interested that so many noble Lords mentioned the Lord Henley: And the noble Lord, Lord Williamson. need for guidance; the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, I apologise for leaving his name out; I will not do so and others particularly stressed its importance. The again. noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, stressed the As the Minister pointed out in his introduction, importance of the timing of that guidance and of bribery has been illegal under United Kingdom domestic ensuring that it is in place before the Bill comes into law for centuries and a process of ad hoc reform has force. That it is certainly something that we would led to a patchwork of offences under the common law, want to look at in detail. the Public Bodies Corrupt Practices Act 1889, the Prevention of Corruption Act 1906 and the Prevention We will also examine carefully, as my noble and of Corruption Act 1916. There have been few developments learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern put it, the in the law for more than 90 years, aside from the safeguards that are in place before a prosecution can jurisdictions of these offences being extended in 2001 be made. There are very differing views on what the to include acts committed abroad by United Kingdom role of the Attorney-General, as opposed to the three citizens and companies. directors, should be; the view of the noble Lords, Lord Goodhart and Lord Thomas of Gresford, was different I am grateful to the Minister for confirming that we from that of my noble and learned friends who are are nevertheless compliant with our international sitting behind me. No doubt, again, we can debate the obligations. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas matter in Grand Committee, where we shall want to of Gresford, disagreed on that point. No doubt that is look at it carefully. something that we can explore at a later stage. The Minister quoted the Law Commission, which The Minister, my noble and learned friend Lord recently described the law of bribery as, Mackay of Clashfern and others referred to the report “riddled with uncertainty and in need of rationalisation”. of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, chaired We all recognise that, when the Joint Committee was by my noble friend Lord Goodlad, which is highly taking evidence in its scrutiny of the draft Bill, all critical of Clause 12. Virtually every noble Lord has witnesses supported the case for reform, reflecting mentioned Clause 12; I shall not repeat their names. calls that were first made by the Royal Commission on The issues of whether there should be defences for the Standards in Public Life some 30 years ago. Particular security services and law enforcement agencies, how criticisms of current law include the use of inconsistent wide they should be and whether they will need the terminology, the artificial divide between public and consent of a Minister will take up a good deal of our private sectors and the focus on whether or not an time when we come to deal with them in Committee. individual is acting as an agent on behalf of a principal, A great many other issues will arise. The Minister a concept which is both complex and leaves gaps in referred to parliamentary privilege, although others the law. said that that issue might be for another day and 1121 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1122

[LORD HENLEY] them; I am the Minister at the Ministry of Justice with another Bill. A question arose about the facilitation of that portfolio and I will advise the House in due payments. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, referred course on the progress being made with those discussions. to the problem relating to subsidiary companies and Turning to the complexity of definitions, the noble so on and my noble and learned friend Lord Lyell of and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, argued that the general Markyate referred to the complexity of Clauses 1 to 5 bribery offences in Clauses 1 to 5 were too complex. It and whether we need to simplify them. We will explore is true that, superficially, bribery may be regarded as a all these matters carefully. straightforward concept, but for the purposes of the Having said that, I think that this is a rare example criminal law, drafting an offence which is wide in of a Bill that is destined not to change much during its scope at the same time as being readily understood passage through the House. We will wish to examine and legally certain is a challenge. There has been other its provisions thoroughly and we may have to make support, from the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, and changes in that process, but, I repeat, we support the other noble Lords including the noble Viscount himself, Bill and will do our utmost to ensure that it gets on to who argued for abandoning the inherently difficult the statute book before the general election, whenever and vague concepts of agent/principal and acting that might take place. corruptly, found in the existing legislation, and adopting the offence as recommended by the Law Commission. 6.22 pm The Law Commission consulted widely on this and possible alternatives and concluded that the improper Lord Bach: My Lords, it is a rare—even unique— conduct test was the best possible option and the Joint pleasure for a Minister on the Front Bench to hear Committee endorsed that approach. We hope that we such unanimous support for a government Bill. I am have adopted a careful balance between simplicity, not sure that I know enough to say whether I agree certainty and effectiveness. with the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, that this is a On facilitation payments, the noble and learned love fest—or to disagree with him in the way that my Lord, Lord Mackay, and the noble Lord, Lord noble friend Lord Borrie chose to do—but it must Williamson, questioned whether such facilitation payments come fairly close to it. I thank all noble Lords who would be caught by the offences in the Bill. It has also have participated in the debate with a special emphasis been suggested that criminalising facilitation payments and a special conviction. It is clear that the Bill attracts could put UK businesses at a disadvantage compared broad cross-party support and that all who have spoken to their US counterparts, given the Foreign Corrupt believe that it will provide the robust law that our Practices Act in the US. Facilitation payments are prosecuting authorities and courts require and will already caught by the offences contained in the current considerably enhance this country’s standing in the law and the Bill does not seek to change that position. international arena. We are adamant that our objective must be to address The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, almost bribery in all its forms. We are not unaware of how the apologised not only for his cough—which I have, real world works, but we believe that tackling petty bribery too—but for his grouse at the beginning of his speech; in itself is a key element in changing the culture of he said it was a minor grouse. However, it was a corruption. In the UK, as at present, prosecution will well-made point about the challenging, as we described depend on whether the evidential and public interest it—he had another word for it—timetable that the tests in the code for Crown prosecutors have been Joint Committee had to face. Two points can be made satisfied. That code does reflect the principle of about that: first, that it makes the conclusions of the proportionality—it may not be in the public interest Joint Committee even more impressive; and, secondly, to prosecute where payments are small; much will that without the timetable it might not have proved depend on the particular circumstances. However, those possible to bring the Bill before the House and, it is to who continue the practice of making such payments be hoped, into law during this truncated Session. The have to be aware of the continuing risk of prosecution. Joint Committee’s work on the Bill is as good an Providing exemptions for facilitation payments, as the advertisement for pre-legislative scrutiny as there has US does, is not a universally accepted practice. Such been so far. Once again, the Government thank the exemptions do create artificial distinctions that are noble Viscount and his team for what they did. difficult to enforce and have the potential to be abused. We have listened this afternoon to the many substantial Indeed, the OECD, much mentioned in the debate, is points that have been made and I assure the House today launching a recommendation on this very issue. that we will consider them with care and do our best in It highlights the corrosive effect of small facilitation Committee to answer them where we feel it right and payments and recommends member countries undertake to concede to them where we feel it right as well. Let periodically to review their policies on small facilitation me answer one or two of them this afternoon. payments to combat the phenomenon and to encourage The noble Viscount talked about Scotland. I agree companies to prohibit their use. We do not apologise, that it is very good news that the Bill will extend to then, for the tough stance that we are taking in the Scotland and I am pleased to say that we have reached Bill, but we very much take the points that have been agreement on this with the , subject, made in the debate. of course, to the publishing the There is of course an issue around the position of necessary legislative consent Motion, usually named the Attorney-General and her role in bribery prosecutions, after my noble friend Lord Sewel. As with the Crown and different views on that issue are seriously held dependencies, it will be for them to update the law in around the House. I would point out that the prior the normal way. We are in regular discussions with consent of the appropriate authority before proceedings 1123 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Bribery Bill [HL] 1124 can commence is only required where it is essential to with companies, under what is described as its policy enable a consistent approach to be taken to decisions of engagement, including those on proposed mergers. to prosecute. I remind the House that, in 2003, the However, he drew a clear line at providing a formal Joint Committee found the consent of the Attorney- advisory service. General was not required for these purposes. We think The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lyell, mentioned that a requirement of the consent of the director of Article 45 of the EU procurement directive. He asked the relevant prosecuting authority achieves the right whether conviction for the Clause 7 offence would balance on bribery, but I emphasise that that does not trigger mandatory exclusion from participation in a affect the superintending role of the Attorney-General public contract under that article. The article provides over the main prosecuting authorities. that any candidate or tenderer who has been convicted I turn to Clause 7, and the issues around adequate of certain offences, including fraud and corruption, procedures and guidance. A number of noble Lords “shall be excluded from participation in a public contract”, discussed that issue, including the noble Lords, Lord and a discretionary approach shall apply for all other Goodhart and Lord Williamson, the noble and learned offences. We believe that being convicted of a Clause 1 Lord, Lord Woolf, and the noble Viscount, Lord or a Clause 6 offence will trigger the mandatory Colville. That adequate procedures defence is designed exclusion, as those offences will fall within the ambit to be flexible. It is not defined in the Bill, as specific of the directive. It would be appropriate for mandatory procedures will depend on the size of the organisation, exclusion to follow, given the complicity on the part of the relevant business sector and the degree to which those who manage the organisation and company. the organisation is engaged in high-risk markets. The I tell the House, and the noble and learned Lord in House will appreciate that what is appropriate in a particular, that we are presently considering whether a large organisation to prevent bribery may not be conviction for the Clause 7 offence would fall within appropriate in a smaller organisation, so the procedures the ambit of the directive. In such cases, the culpable should, we think, therefore be proportionate to the conduct on the part of the organisation is not bribery circumstances of the particular organisation. in itself but rather a failure to prevent bribery. I hope and expect to have a definitive answer to the noble and We intend to publish guidance that draws on the learned Lord’s excellent question on this issue by the knowledge and expertise of stakeholders. We intend it time we have reached Clause 7 in committee. to cover the Clause 7 offence, particularly the adequate procedures defence. However, the guidance will not set The Earl of Onslow: Will the Minister help me? If a out detailed prescriptive standards; rather, we intend it company is badly convicted of one of these offences, is to be indicative by setting out broad principles and it no cause for redemption if everybody, including the illustrative good practice examples of adequate procedures. officers concerned, are cleansed and the company We also intend the guidance to be available well in shows that it has reformed and made itself clean and advance—there, I have used that phrase again—of the upright? implementation of new offences. The CBI, in its briefing to noble Lords, said that it welcomed the defence of Lord Bach: I hope that the noble Earl will not press having adequate procedures in place to prevent bribery, me on that tonight. It is one of the matters that we will and broadly supported that approach. On what constitutes have to consider in deciding what our attitude is adequate procedures, it welcomed the fact that the towards an offence under Clause 7. However, it is an Government have agreed that official or non-statutory important point. guidance must be provided, containing broad principles and illustrative best practices. It said that it was also I turn to the failure on the part of a commercial welcome that there appears to be recognition that organisation to prevent bribery, joint ventures and different sectors operate in different contexts, and that syndication. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, referred such non-statutory guidance will be produced after to this. He asked about the operation of the corporate the Bill has received but before the offence in relation to the activities of a joint venture offences come into force. The Government are pleased over which a company might not have real control. that the Confederation of British Industry has that The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, mentioned view of that issue. this point too. Clause 8(4) of the Bill makes clear that, whether a There has been a suggestion—the noble Lord, Lord person or body was performing services on behalf of Thomas of Gresford, spoke on this—that a central another, advice facility, similar to that provided by the United “is to be determined by reference to all the relevant circumstances”. States and Hong Kong, might be beneficial here. The It is indeed possible for one person, or a number of Joint Committee obviously thought about that a lot, people, to be deemed to be performing services on and heard evidence on it. It recognised that such an behalf of more than one company. That is sensible if advisory service could be beneficial, but in the end the Bill is to be effective. It depends on the circumstances noted that there might be difficulties in establishing but it may be that a bribe by a person performing such a service in this country, and was concerned services for one company in a joint venture is rightly about the impact on the independence of prosecutors regarded as being paid in connection with the business in particular. We agree with it on that issue and do not of any of the companies involved in that venture. think it appropriate for our criminal justice system. Our purpose is clear; we want to encourage Having said all that, the director of the Serious organisations which are involved in joint ventures to Fraud Office has indicated that there would be occasions ensure that they are satisfied that adequate procedures when his office would discuss points of general principle are built into the arrangements for their joint venture. 1125 Bribery Bill [HL][LORDS] Bribery Bill [HL] 1126

[LORD BACH] range of conduct by a range of people associated, for I need to point out that, before an organisation can be example, with one or a number of operations conducted held culpable under Clause 7, the prosecution has to by the security services, which could subsist for six prove that the bribe was paid with the intention that months and could be renewed for another six months. business, or an advantage in the conduct of business, In contrast to the authorisation scheme, anyone who be obtained or retained for that organisation. Where bribes will be guilty of the offence unless that person this connection cannot be made the organisation will can prove that the defence applies. The defence is not be guilty. case-specific and ensures that the necessity or otherwise I will say comparative little about Clause 12 tonight. of the conduct is tested by reference to the roles of I am delighted to see the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, individual people and the particular circumstances of in his place. I thank him and his committee again for individual cases. their report. A number of issues arise around Clause 12. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and the I was extremely grateful for the speech of the noble noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, among others, Lord, Lord Patten, at least as far as it concerned this questioned more broadly whether the clause was needed particular clause. He is not absolutely alone. He has at all; the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, certainly did so me for company at the present time, in defending in his powerful speech. It is questioned whether the Clause 12. Clause 12 defence of the legitimate purposes of the The first issue is whether Clause 12 is drafted too state is necessary, and it has been suggested that it widely. My noble friend Lady Whitaker believes it is would be better simply to rely on prosecutorial discretion. and many other noble Lords think it is too. She was Leaving aside broader issues of whether Clause 12 is kind enough to acknowledge that we had already too broadly set at the moment and includes too many come a long way in meeting the reservations of the people and too many groups, and dealing with the Joint Committee. question of whether we need a Clause 12 at all, I begin to put the case now for the clause. Those who are A similar point has been made by Transparency afforded defence under the clause exercise significant International. I remind the House that the defence functions on behalf of the public. It is indeed a would not cover conduct that would amount to bribery sensitive area, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, reminded of a foreign public official. Our objective is to ensure us. It is right that the law should afford those people that law enforcement agencies, the intelligence services who undertake important functions the reassurances and the Armed Forces can continue to undertake their of a defence at the outset if the effective discharge of important functions effectively. There will be occasions their functions necessitates conduct that would otherwise when conduct would amount to an offence under the amount to an offence. Bill in order to secure intelligence critical to our national In conjunction with the Code for Crown Prosecutors, security or to ensure the safety of military, intelligence the provision, which gives a clear and transparent service or law enforcement personnel. It would not be statement of the circumstances in which a person appropriate to criminalise that conduct. However, any otherwise liable for bribery has a defence, would assist person wishing to rely on the defence would have to prosecutors in deciding whether a case should proceed. demonstrate that his or her conduct was necessary in Transparent is an important word here. In the specific any given case. context at issue, we think our clearer and more transparent I shall quote from what Transparency International approach is more appropriate than allowing such decisions said in its briefing to noble Lords on Clause 12; the to be made with broad discretion alone. In other noble Lord, Lord Patten, referred to part of this in words, if the senior prosecutor on such a case decides making his point: to prosecute, the defendant should be able to run this “The Government’s earlier draft Bribery Bill provided for defence in front of a jury. authorisation by the Secretary of State for bribery by UK security I note the well made criticism that no examples of services. The JSC heard that the OECD Working Group on where this might be material have been given to the Bribery had never encountered any law anywhere that expressly authorised bribery. The JSC opposed the proposal on the ground Joint Committee or by me to the House today. It is an that the Bribery Bill was not the appropriate vehicle to extend the important point which I will take away to see whether security services’ powers to contravene the criminal law. The it is possible to bring those examples to the notice of Government has responded to the JSC’s recommendations in two those in this House interested in the Bill. ways: (a) instead of giving a wide authorisation to the security Clearly, we will return to Clause 12 and other services to pay bribes, there is now a more limited defence to prosecution; and (b) Section 12 identifies specific areas where matters in the Bill. My noble friend Lord Borrie asked benefit-giving might be considered to be for the public good: e.g. whether the civil law will still have a role in the fight police transactions with informers, military actions in the course against bribery. The answer is yes, it certainly will—the of armed conflict and security services. TI-UK would on balance Bill does not affect the civil law. prefer the Clause 12 to be omitted; but accepts that the Government has responded positively to the JSC’s recommendations”. I hope I have dealt with some of the points that noble Lords have raised. Those points will come up in With regard to the accusation that the blanket Committee. I thank the House again for its sympathetic defence is much broader than the authorisation scheme reception of the Bill and look forward to debating of the draft Bill, it is right that the authorisation further matters in Grand Committee after our Christmas scheme did not cover the Armed Forces or law break. enforcement agencies, but the authorisation scheme of the draft Bill allowed a much wider exemption to the provisions of the Bill because that scheme allowed for Bill read a second time and committed to a Grand class authorisations that could provide cover for a Committee. 1127 Bribery Bill [HL][9 DECEMBER 2009] Pupils and the Media 1128

Pupils and the Media occurring in early childhood. Fourthly, some people Question for Short Debate seem particularly vulnerable. Fifthly, exposure to media images has long-term effects. Sixthly, alternative advertising 6.47 pm images—for example, images of women of size 14, rather than the current mania for very thin models—are as Tabled By Baroness Thomas of Walliswood effective in terms of selling products. Seventhly, people are neither fully aware of the influence of media To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans images, nor of their artificiality. Eighthly, interventions they have to ensure that pupils in school acquire a that curb media influence protect and enhance well-being. better understanding of the influence of the media. Ninthly, policy debates are longstanding, but change is now happening in Europe and the USA. Baroness Thomas of Walliswood: My Lords, when I In this context, an article in quoted a tabled this Question, I was not aware of the huge number of organisations involved in manipulating images. number of initiatives and research projects, relevant to The editor of Vogue magazine has commented on, this debate, which have taken place in recent years—at least one of which, the Ofcom study, is part of a “the removal of any ‘flaw’ so that a new kind of human perfection has been reached ... where women don’t have wrinkles or eyebags continuous project related to how families use the and nobody has pores or veins or facial hair”. internet and other media. American researchers and academics are conducting similar research into the Another authority, Stewart Price, from Digital Retouch dangers and benefits of the media in all its aspects: says that he may, advertising and public relations, safety when using the “remove a smile line here and there, make them look a little internet—particularly for children accessing electronic younger. You can thin out someone’s neck or fix a blemish, media in their own bedrooms—and the desirability of whiten teeth, drop a few pounds—whatever is not aesthetically trying to protect children from the dangers they may pleasing to our eye”. encounter and the influences which may impact upon But a former editor of Marie Claire concludes that their understanding of the world around them. this perfectionism is in the service of product sales, In a relatively short speech, it is not possible to do and adds that she thinks readers can appreciate a more justice to all this work, fascinating though much of it honest approach. is. But the fact that it is being done at all reflects on the Whether that last comment is true, however, is open need to help and educate young people about the to doubt. A 2007 study by the University of Missouri power of the media, for both good and ill, and their showed that all sorts of women felt noticeably worse need to learn how to use that power. about themselves after only three minutes of viewing One major element in the media is advertising and models in magazine photos. Research by the University other material in magazines directed particularly at of Sussex confirms the widespread discontent among women and girls. Members may know that my colleague young girls as to their body image. They generally in another place, , recently launched a want to be at least a size smaller at an age when most campaign to prevent magazines from artificially enhancing of the women who contribute to the work of this models’ beauty by covering skin imperfections, flattening Chamber were probably not paying any attention to stomachs and extending legs. I love the thought of such matters. extending legs, don’t you? I want to consider another aspect of this subject, MPs who back the campaign want magazines to namely the potential dangers of early access to the adopt a code of conduct that will ensure that all electronic media on the part of children in their own images which have been digitally enhanced are marked homes. The Byron review, Children and New Technology, as such, and that enhanced images should be banned makes a particularly relevant contribution to the discussion altogether in magazines directed at under-16s. This is of how to keep young people safe, while the Ofcom not an unimportant matter. The statistics show a rise reports give us a good understanding of how parents of 47 per cent in the number of under-18s admitted to and children organise viewing of different sorts of hospital last year for treatment of anorexia or bulimia, media, including TV, games, talking to others, and and many research problems confirm the ill effects of trying out different programme options. these enhanced images on women and girls. The support It is clear from Ofcom that children have a variety given to the campaign by Equality Minister Harriet of experience of how their access is managed. Parents Harman is especially welcome. try to exert power and influence on their children’s use As part of the work done in connection with Jo of the internet, for example, but, as older children Swinson’s campaign, the Liberal Democrats asked a retreat to their own rooms, it may become more and body of experts from around the world to provide more difficult for parents to keep up with their children’s information on the impact of idealised media images level of expertise in using the media available to them. on how adults, adolescents and children think, feel The year-on-year comparisons of the Ofcom analyses and behave with respect to their body and appearance. show that in many households children are more I shall read out the nine sentences which sum up the expert than their parents in accessing what they want findings. The paper confirms, first, that body image is to see or with whom they wish to interact. A particular highly significant for physical and mental health and problem is that poorer families have less contact with thus well-being. Body dissatisfaction is a significant electronic media and their children may be less well risk for mental health. Secondly, the weight of evidence armed to defend themselves against more dangerous documents the detrimental effect of idealised media programmes and contacts. Have the Government been able images. Thirdly, these detrimental media effects start to offer any assistance to parents in these circumstances, 1129 Pupils and the Media[LORDS] Pupils and the Media 1130

[BARONESS THOMAS OF WALLISWOOD] hours watching television and looking at computer or are there any voluntary groups, playschools, after-school screens at home than they do learning in school. TV, clubs and so on where children will be able to acquire advertising in all media, the internet, social networking what are now essential skills for everyone? and indeed print journalism, for as long as it lasts, are The Byron review is more directly related to combating the context and condition of their lives from an early the dangers inherent in the easy availability of electronic age. These are not merely media in which they live and media to inexperienced young people. Indeed, its author move—as it were, the ecology of their lives—but forces declares from the first the belief that, scientifically and expertly targeting them. “crucial and central to this [safety] issue is a strong commitment So children need to be equipped with skills for to changing behaviour through a sustained information and survival in this mediated existence. Ninety-nine per education strategy. This should focus on raising the knowledge, cent of children aged eight to 17, the Government tell skills and understanding around e-safety of children, parents and other responsible adults”. us, now have access to the web and to the virtual world that it opens up. Eighteen per cent of children, we are The author goes on to say that, just as we know told, have come across harmful or inappropriate content swimming baths to have some dangerous aspects but online. I do not know how “harmful”or “inappropriate” we teach our children to swim while avoiding such are defined for the purpose of this statistic. I suspect dangers, so we should do the same with respect to that the bullying and manipulation of the fashion teaching e-safety to children and young people. The industry, about which the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, need is both for adults—teachers and parents—to spoke powerfully just now, are not taken into account acquire a good understanding of issues around e-safety here. At any rate, it is right that online safety is to be and for them to ensure that children acquire the skills made a compulsory part of the curriculum from age and online safety awareness that they need. A caveat five, and I welcome the green cross code. reminds us that, although children may have better online skills than their parents, that does not protect As children grow, they need a developing awareness them from risky situations. The more skilled they of the nature of the media, which are omnipresent in become, the more risky encounters they may have. their lives, and of the forces acting on them. They The report’s conclusions seem very sensible. It argues, need to understand what powerful persuaders and first, that the “staying safe” element in Every Child propagandists are trying to do to them and what they Matters should include e-safety. Secondly, the author themselves are trying to do in response as they adapt notes that nothing prevents schools integrating ICT to mediated life. Otherwise, young people will be unable and e-safety education as part of other subjects. Indeed, to become independent, self-aware, self-determining, it seems that primary schools already seem to manage responsible agents—which, I presume, we should be it in this way. Thirdly, the report concludes that there aiming for in education. is no need for “wholesale changes” to the curriculum; As politicians, we are apt to applaud the so-called e-safety and media literacy should be embedded in the creative economy and give thanks for its exceptionally existing curriculum. The fourth conclusion is that rapid growth in Britain and its contribution to employment teachers and staff need training in the e-safety element and exports. We do not think enough about its in the curriculum. Finally, the report recommends that psychological and moral effects on those who are ill the Government should encourage teachers to focus equipped educationally to deal with it. We may tut-tut on e-safety by identifying it as a national priority for about the tyranny of fashion and celebrity. Every now the continuous professional development of teachers and again, we have a more acute spasm of anxiety and the wider school workforce. Do the Government about copycat conduct, as in the Jamie Bulger case, agree with those four very practical recommendations? where there was evidence that the boys who murdered If so, are they being put into action already? Jamie were re-enacting scenes from a video. We may Few things are more important than the education be startled by reports about the latest computer game of all children so that they can, as adults, play their sensation. It may be “Modern Warfare 2”, “Assassin’s full part in society—as parents, workers, volunteers, Creed 2” or “Left4Dead2”, with more and more people family members and citizens—in the broad sense of playing at killing more and people more and more that term. I look forward to listening to the contributions luridly. But we are liberal, we do not like to be prudish of other Members of your Lordships’ House and, in or spoilsports, and it may just be that some of us are not particular, to that of the Minister. entirely up to date in our knowledge of some of that. We can be sure that today’s media are not activated 6.57 pm by Reithian values—nor do I wish the media to be Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, I am glad preachy or culturally authoritarian. I do want young that the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Walliswood, people to be educated to have a critical capacity, to be tabled this subject for debate and I thank her. The discriminating. That is what I mean by media literacy. question of what education young people should have I notice that the term “media literacy” is commonly about the media is profoundly important but it does used in a technical, neutral sense: young people are to not often enough receive the serious consideration in learn IT skills as they are to learn to read and write. Parliament that it should. Too often, media studies are Being able to work the gadgetry, to operate the technology, sneered at and mocked as the epitome of the sloppy is only a preliminary. What then matter are questions and the trendy in education. of significance, of value. Children and young people are today blitzed and The words “literacy”, “criticism”and “discrimination” barraged by media with unprecedented intensity and have shifted in common usage. Literacy once denoted determination. Children typically spend many more not just the capacity to read but being relatively well 1131 Pupils and the Media[9 DECEMBER 2009] Pupils and the Media 1132 read and having a humane appreciation of literary I hope that the Government will support the principles style and quality. Criticism, in the sense of the term of that Bill, which basically seeks to protect children inherited from Matthew Arnold by IA Richards and from internet dangers by insisting that systems are in FR Leavis, was a moral endeavour, a rigorous inquiry place to determine whether people buying over the into authenticity, quality, how literary effect was achieved internet meet the minimum age. Young people can, and what literary greatness meant. Discrimination was and in test cases have, easily purchased pornography, an educated capacity to recognise fine distinctions of alcohol, knives and so on through the internet. literary and moral purpose, means and effect. Those The question today is about trying to ensure that terms are still used in those earlier senses in expert pupils in school have a better understanding of the discussion and, indeed, in the national curriculum influence of the media. I suggest that this is a difficult documents, but for most people today they have different task. Young people like the media in all their forms. I and more neutral or negative connotations. am delighted that personal, social and health education I see an analogy between the history of the slow is to be a statutory subject of the curriculum. PSHE acceptance and development of English literature as should encourage informed decision-making about a an educational discipline and the slow progress of whole range of issues, including drugs and alcohol, media studies in schools. sexuality, diet and how the media might be used A hundred years ago, the study of English literature sensibly.Teaching resistance to pressure and assertiveness struggled to secure a place in grammar school and are part of that process. I believe that resistance to media university curricula. There was not yet a convincing pressure may be very difficult. Young people naturally methodology for teaching Eng Lit. Philology was grimly take risks and risk-taking is exciting; the media often established, but literary critical technique was undeveloped encourage risk-taking to an unacceptable level. and lacking in intellectual rigour—and was denounced I suggest that the law has a part to play in protecting as such—in some of the grander public schools until children as well as the imperative to help them to well into the second half of the 20th century. Our protect themselves through example and education. I literary heritage was commandeered as propaganda to also believe that there is a place for public education serve various ideologies and sentimentalities about campaigns to alert parents and families about the patriotism and nationhood. An educated person was dangers of some media influence. The purchase of supposed somehow to absorb, pretty well without online goods and services by underage children is one being taught, a knowledge of great drama, poetry and such example. novels. Gradually, however, English became a serious, The media, including the internet, can entertain, respectable discipline. When well taught, systematic inform and instruct, but they must act responsibly, and rigorous study of literature confers enhanced particularly with regard to children. Parents and schools delight in literature as art, better understanding of cannot do it all. Use of the internet has increased how words can most tellingly be used, a more acute dramatically. In 1999, only 9 per cent of the UK awareness of an author’s intentions and a more developed population could access the internet from home. Between capacity to understand human motive and to distinguish 2000 and 2004, this percentage increased by 126.5 per different kinds of moral conduct. All of that is an cent. Fifty-eight per cent of us use the internet. Close education for citizenship and democracy. to 90 per cent of teenagers have a personal TV, as do Well conceived and practised study of the media 60 per cent of five and six year-olds. will confer equivalent benefits. We should pay tribute The problem with the massive use of the internet is to some of the pioneers of media education in this that children are vulnerable to being exploited. Professor country: Cary Bazalgette, Colin MacCabe and Stuart Tanya Byron, who was mentioned by the noble Baroness, Hall. Study of the media has certainly gained ground Lady Thomas, spelled out the many challenges relating in the national curriculum in the work that has been to children and their use of the internet in her report developed in technology and the media, English and last year. The Children’s Charities’ Coalition on Internet citizenship, but it is still at an early stage. It needs to Safety launched its Digital Manifesto earlier this year. enlarge the bridgehead. Given the ubiquity, aggression Its recommendations include blocking access to all and power of the media and, to put it more positively, known child abuse websites, protection from access to the immense intellectual and creative energies of film, age-restricted goods and services, and data protection. television and other media, media studies should surely It calls for a review of progress on the take-up and use be central to the school curriculum. We should see to of child safety software in the consumer market and it that critical study of the media fortifies and enriches incentives for firms to develop new technical measures every young person in their capacity for an independent, designed to help to protect children and young people capable and confident engagement with the world online. around them. In the Gambling Act, Parliament made it compulsory 7.05 pm for all online gambling sites to devise methods of determining the age of everyone who came on to the Baroness Massey of Darwen: My Lords, I thank the sites. Such provisions came into force in 2007 and noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Walliswood, for seem to be working well. Specialist companies carry introducing this debate and for raising so many interesting out verifications. Online retailers of age-restricted goods points, as has my noble friend Lord Howarth. and services should have effective systems in place to I want to talk about one particular aspect of children prevent underage sales. The law does not sanction and the media. This concerns child internet safety. My underage sales but the law is being manipulated. Private Member’s Bill on age verification passed through Companies should be providing online and effective all its stages in your Lordships’ House earlier this year. ID checks in order to screen underage people. 1133 Pupils and the Media[LORDS] Pupils and the Media 1134

[BARONESS MASSEY OF DARWEN] what makes an attractive woman. I will probably be It is easily possible for children who are under age accused of prejudice from various quarters, but I to purchase from the internet. A 14 year-old boy was think that the comic’s point was well made. recently, in a test case, able to buy a prepaid card with What are you trying to do with the image? What cash at a local store. Card retailers say that their cards will your body be used for? I always approach such can be sold only to people who are aged over 18, but questions from the sportsman’s angle and the fact that the boy was not questioned about his age. He bought there is no “perfect male body”. However, there are pornographic videos from Amazon and knives from perfect male bodies for doing various types of sports Tesco; they were delivered to his home and personally and functions. Females, who are in the ascendant in signed for. Oddbins delivered some vodka to his home number here, will probably have their own idea of the and he was able to bet on a football match online. In most pleasant body to look at. However, the perfect the light of such temptation and excitement, I wonder body to be a middle-distance runner is not the same as how influential the school curriculum might have been, the perfect body to be a front rower in a rugby scrum, or might be. No, the law needs to step in. a basketball player or a gymnast. Reports talk about I saw recently in the press that Microsoft and Tesco the model’s image, but it is actually the marketing were joining forces to start marketing and selling man’s idea. This is where the enhancements that my videos and films over the internet. Apparently they are noble friend talked about come in. going to be sold as downloadable items. We will no Size 14 is the normal female shape. The sportsman doubt see more of this kind of thing happening. Any side of me says and the sports fascist says: product that is capable of being digitalised will be digitalised and will be sold online. TV programmes, “Get out there and get running and all become size 12”. advertisements and games are already available. Perhaps Is that realistic? What is the balance between encouraging I may remind Tesco and Microsoft, as other companies somebody to be healthier and to achieve something have been reminded before, that many of these items that is realistic? We must look at how we are going to are the subject of legally prescribed age limits. If achieve it. Greater education in the true sense of the companies cannot satisfy themselves that they can sell phrase is probably a very strong aspect of it. Examining these items legally over the internet, then, frankly, they how we get into this argument is another example. should not be selling them at all. There is aesthetics and there is use of your body. Do I mentioned the gambling industry. Under the we actually promote the marketing of physical activity? Gambling Act 2005, having a robust online age verification That is a very old argument which I have gone back to system in place became a condition of obtaining a far too often in this House. It was described to me licence to provide gambling services online. Perhaps once that exercise is the wonder drug for the National we should have the same condition for all services Health Service. How are we going to encourage people online—that is, any company that wishes to sell age- to take exercise that suits their body, that they will restricted goods online should obtain a licence, which enjoy, that they will be successful at: exercise that not would confirm that they had taken all reasonable steps only suits their physical characteristics but also their to ensure that the law was not being broken. That is mental ones? A huge education pack comes into this precisely what my Private Member’s Bill sought to do. field. I still hope that the Government will adopt the principles If you regard your body merely as something to be of my Bill and ensure that it becomes enshrined in displayed or as an ideal that should be displayed, you legislation. cut out far more people from looking at it. There will Children need protection from age-restricted online be one image. The fashion industry takes most of the sales. They also need education about the media. Does pounding here but it may not be the only example. the Minister sympathise with this, and do the Government Howdoweapproachthis?Howdowegettheeducation have plans to improve child internet safety as well as within the system? At school, it may be a case of encouraging the teaching of skills to resist pressure? intervening early enough to tell people that their bodies will all be different shapes and sizes. There is no 7.12 pm perfect shape—you cannot be everything. Lord Addington: My Lords, my noble friend’s debate The male of the species gets a slightly easier deal is one which we feel we have covered before; but we here. As I understand it from some of the briefing I have never covered it before from quite this angle. received, the model male effectively is the tall, thin There is always a danger when preparing for such person with the wide shoulders who does certain debates that you will go back to nurse—to the way it exercises and has muscles that stick out. The ideal is was done before. When I heard that this debate was basically a smaller version of the heavy pumped up about the influence of the media, I immediately thought bodybuilder. You have to tell people that bodybuilders about the old argument, which was only a small part get this way only by stripping all the fluid out of their of my noble friend’s argument, about acceptable ways bodies. They can maintain this only for short periods of presenting information on the body to children and of time to keep the muscle mass going and then they how it will influence them. The reason I thought that can display it only for a short time. They have stripped is probably down to an extremely good joke—which I so much fluid out of their systems that they probably think I heard on “The News Quiz”, though I am not could not run a mile without dying—I have probably quite sure who the comic was—at the expense of one overstated the case. Still there is a price to pay. Karl Lagerfeld, who apparently said that size 0 models If we can try to get the message across that you are attractive and sell more. As the comic pointed out, cannot have it all in terms of physical image we will Karl Lagerfeld might not be the best person to say take a step forward. We have got to try to address this 1135 Pupils and the Media[9 DECEMBER 2009] Pupils and the Media 1136 in the round. Just wailing and protesting that it should in so the fact that someone who has got to that size not happen is not going to work. How do I know that? may have appalling skin does not show. Trying to We have been doing that for a long time. I do not know reveal it might be a way forward. Let us try to show when I first heard that all models were too thin and the price that has to be paid for a certain look. how unhealthy it was, but it has got to be at least Even a professional athlete becomes a figure of 20 years ago. I am sure it goes back further than that. health only because he eats five meals a day, sleeps We have to try to get a new approach. Merely more than we would, trains harder and for longer, and protesting about it will not work. The noble Baroness, has no social life for 10 to 15 years because he does not Lady Massey, made a good point about new media go out at night. We should let people know that there and other images. It was a good attempt and a good is always a price to pay. The rewards may justify that approach to try to handle it. Also inherent in the kind of life and we may applaud it, but often it is a argument is that there is only so much control we can place that only a few can reach. bring in without being overly restrictive. We are always on this and the noble Baroness is taking her turn at 7.23 pm balancing on a knife edge. You can slip either way. I Baroness Verma: My Lords, I join in thanking the applaud her courage totally and dread following it. noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Walliswood, for What we have to do is try to get this balance right. The introducing this important debate. As I was listening idea of educating to see there are right and wrong to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, about size zero ways of doing things is important. However, we must models, I was reminded of an article in the Guardian not overplay it. just before the last election. It said: “Sandy Verma, Are the video games referred to by the noble Lord, Tory poster girl”. I thought to myself, “Wow, what a Lord Howarth, a worse example of what happens with wonderful tribute”. While the article horrified my violence than the black and white films of my childhood? children, it gave hope to every 40-plus, size 16-plus, Then if you were shot with a high calibre handgun you 5 foot 3 inch-or-under woman in Great Britain. That put your hand to your chest and went “oh they got is the point, I think, that the noble Lord was trying to me” and died without a murmur. What is a worse make. However, I shall go back to my script now that I image of violence? What is a worse image of what it is have got that off my chest. about—the Sam Peckinpah blood and guts splashed It is undeniable that, rightly or wrongly and be it everywhere or that? What encourages the use of violence positive or negative, the media leave a lasting impression as not having a downside? I do not think it is a on our children and young people. With emerging discussion we have often enough. So if we take on the media forms such as social networking, user-generated images and look at what is going on, we will probably content, online communities and social worlds, online be in a better state. gaming and peer-to-peer file-sharing, new challenges and questions are posed. Half of these even I still do The current government campaign showing what not understand, but not for a second should we knives actually do to people is good, as are the adverts underestimate the power and potential of these media shown later at night when we do not expect school for impressing both good and negative effects on our pupils to be watching television. They show what children and young people, as positive attitudes towards happens if you get absolutely drunk on 14 pre-mixed social integration, learning and education, cultural cocktails and end up falling about on the way home. experience and identity formation are many of the We have probably all seen the one showing the young skills that have been lost through the fracturing of our girl. That is probably a better way of educating people communities. It can be argued that through using the and addressing the issues than just saying it is dreadful. media actively, children and young people can be We must address the world we are in. educated to recognise the potential risks and benefits We must also remember that when talking about in a safer environment. the young, the impression given for as long as I can However, concerns about the harmful effects of the remember is that society is going to come to an end media on children and young people are rarely absent because the young are so appalling. I can recall the from the headlines. The dangers from the internet are reaction to people with long hair, then people with linked to sexual exposure, video games linked to violence, short spiky hair, then people with floppy hair and very and magazines linked to emotional insecurities and different clothes. They were all going to destroy society. illnesses such as anorexia in teenagers. These are but a They all had a go and they all failed. We may not like few of the associated themes. It is vital that parents all the different bits of society, but they have always and schools both play their part in helping children to been there, and whether they are bigger or smaller is a understand and utilise the positive benefits that can be matter for debate. I suggest that what is required is an achieved, yet ensuring that they hold firmly the levers ongoing process because there is no right answer, of control in their hands so that where young people merely a right answer for the moment. are not able to decipher the message through whatever I return to the subject I started with. I have a couple medium they are exposed to in order to know what we of photographs of size zero models with me that I will think is acceptable, an adult can step in and take not show because they would not appear in the record. responsibility. They reflect what I call “concentration camp chic”. If Yesterday, the Prime Minister announced his plans such a look is encouraged in the system, it has an on internet safety becoming a compulsory part of the effect on young girls, who are one of the most vulnerable curriculum from next year for those over five. I should groups. They need to be helped to get away from these like a little more clarity on that announcement. First, impossible images that may even have been airbrushed what form will the plan take? Will it be a separate 1137 Pupils and the Media[LORDS] Pupils and the Media 1138

[BARONESS VERMA] are everywhere in our lives—particularly in the lives of lesson or part of another lesson? Who will teach it and young people who have access, which no one could be responsible for creating the guidelines? Will existing have dreamt of 10 years or even five years ago. The teachers deliver these lessons and how will the information percentage of young people with access to the internet be passed on to parents, who will undoubtedly need to is rising sky high The explosion of new media has reinforce the importance of internet safety at home? taken many of us by surprise, and like many noble How much does the Minister estimate the cost of the Lords, I find it hard to imagine what it is like being a programme to be? How will we monitor its success or young person now living in a virtual world, as well as failure? living in the real one. While internet safety is important, will the Government To make some general points, it does not do justice recognise that the seriousness of other forms of media to this complex issue to have a polarised debate, which and their influence on young people is equally important? pits two extremes against each other. That is sometimes What plans do the Government have to take action to what happens on this subject outside the House. One address the problems identified by the noble Lord, view is to blame the media for the woes of society and Lord Addington, in magazines, for example? We wish casts children and young people as hapless victims to ensure that parents are at the forefront of these while another argues that those same children and campaigns. It is first and foremost their duty to ensure young people are sufficiently knowledgeable and media that what their children and young people access is savvy to understand exactly how to respond to the age-appropriate and provides positive information to wave of information and messages they encounter make the right choices. It is crucial that along with daily. It is not that simplistic. As ever, your Lordships’ schools, they are part of the solution and not just House is cognisant of that. bystanders on government initiatives. This does seem to me to be overly simplistic. There can Although I support wholeheartedly efforts to improve be no doubt that access to the wide range of media our children and young people’s safety, especially from now available can be hugely beneficial to our children, the harmful effects of the media, I believe that this as the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, said. It offers may not be the method to achieve such aims. Much children important opportunities, for example in terms thought needs to go into how action will manifest of entertainment, learning, creativity, cultural experiences itself into reality. Our schools are already overstretched, and social networking. I very much agree with my often understaffed, and subject to ever-increasing demands. noble friend Lord Howarth on this. There are great While we on these Benches appreciate the reasoning opportunities, but at the same time we need to recognise behind the teaching of media safety in schools, and the risks, as my noble friend Lady Massey set out and the influences of the media on our children, surely the as the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, said in her main focus of schools should be teaching core academic opening speech. subjects and giving children the ability to develop For example, new research that is to be published critical thought processes so that they can decipher tomorrow, and already referred to, shows that 18 per what is right and wrong through whatever exposure to cent of children said that their parents do not know media they receive. what they do on the internet. This is an important We believe that giving more powers to schools, issue. That is why the Prime Minister, who takes this giving heads control over their budgets, with a less very seriously, yesterday launched “Click Clever Click prescriptive national curriculum and freedom regarding Safe”, the UK’s first internet safety strategy which sets who they employ, would allow them to do more to out what we are collectively doing to keep children educate children about the influence of the media in safe online. We believe this is the first strategy of its the contextual needs of those individual schools. Given kind produced anywhere in the world, and it follows that many schools are still unable to reach the core on, as noble Lords are aware, from the Byron review skills required by the curriculum, we do not wish to and the very comprehensive analysis that Tanya Byron distract them by handing them even more Whitehall there made. diktats and directions. I look forward to the Minister’s The noble Baronesses, Lady Thomas and Lady response because these questions are incredibly important, Verma, and of course my noble friend Lady Massey, not just to us in the Chamber but to parents who will asked about the Byron review and the Government’s be listening to the debate carefully. response. As I have said, “Click Clever Click Safe” was 7.28 pm launched yesterday by the Prime Minister, but this came about because of the establishment of the UK The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Council for Child Internet Safety in response to Tanya Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Byron. This brings together government, industry and Morgan of Drefelin): My Lords, I, too, am grateful to charities to take a comprehensive and partnership the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Walliswood, for approach. Over 140 organisations and individuals have calling this debate today, and for the contributions come together to help develop this strategy. In response which have been a pleasure to listen to. As others have to Tanya Byron’s report, the Government have launched said, I will not be able to do justice to all the points a major public awareness campaign which will come raised, or to those which should be responded to, in over the next two years, based on new research into the time available, but I will write to noble Lords on what support parents and children are looking for. those that I miss out. This is going to be a funding commitment of around I shall endeavour to provide a good overview of £9 million to support the campaign on child safety, what work the Government are doing in response to and includes a focus, as noble Lords will be pleased to these kinds of questions. We all agree that the media hear, on issues like cyber-bullying. 1139 Pupils and the Media[9 DECEMBER 2009] Pupils and the Media 1140

Also in response to the Byron review, we have been We are working with the Department for Culture, working to give those who work with children, such as Media and Sport to ensure that the well-being of teachers, social-workers and childcare-workers, access children is given a priority. This was a matter of great to free, high-quality resources—for example, through concern to my noble friend Lady Massey. We welcome the development of our Know IT All site for teaching the fact that the Internet Advisory Bureau has developed materials, which is accessible through DCSF. These a set of good practice principles for online behavioural are very high quality free teaching materials that will advertising which came into force in September 2009. be available specifically for secondary teachers from The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, raised the question March 2010. of body image. The Channel 4 programme “How to Also, we have seen the launch of the Green Cross Look Good Naked”has been running an online petition Code, “Zip it, Block it, Flag it”. This has been developed calling for a body image confidence lesson to be with children and young people and of course builds included in the school curriculum. Personal, social, on the work and expertise of CEOP. We hope that this health and economic education already includes provision will become, from a very early age, from primary of information on how to lead healthy lifestyles and school, as all-pervasive as “Stop, Look and Listen” was offers opportunities for young people to develop for the Green Cross Code when we were growing up. confidence on these issues. However, the Government The noble Baroness, Lady Verma, asked how we announced recently their intention, which was widely will know if any of this makes any difference. She is welcomed in the House, to make PSHE part of the right to do that because what we have done through statutory national curriculum. Provisions to this effect the UK strategy is to put some very tough evaluation have been included in the Bill currently in the other measures in there, and we will be asking parents and place. children whether a difference has been made. In primary schools, children will learn about healthy We will also be publishing soon the report from Professor lifestyles and how the body changes with the approach David Buckingham on the impact of the commercial of puberty; in secondary schools they will start to world on children and young people’s well-being, together learn about the physical and emotional changes that with the Government’s response. I cannot anticipate take place at this time. There is considerable flexibility that report too much, but I will make sure that noble for schools to determine how they present learning in Lords have sight of it as soon as it is out. areas such as this and guidance will be produced early The first work we need to do is to support schools, in 2010 to support schools. My right honourable friend as many noble Lords have said, and help them to the Secretary of State will meet with the presenter of enhance the media literacy of their pupils, to help “How to Look Good Naked”, Gok Wan, to discuss them stay safe and enjoy the opportunities that both this question. I know he is looking forward to that the old and new media have to offer. My noble friend meeting. Lord Howarth referred to media literacy extending The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, referred to beyond technical skills. He is right. I was interested in airbrushing. I am aware that the post-production his comparison with the development of English literature. retouching of images in advertising is a common It can play an important role in helping children practice in order to show a product—or, in many navigate their way through the media maze and to cases, a woman, a real person—in the best light. This become critical evaluators of what is presented to is an issue of great concern. If the Advertising Standards them, not only in the media but otherwise in life, too. Agency finds that an advertiser has used airbrushing These life skills are important and we need to do much or image-enhancing techniques in a socially irresponsible more work on that aspect of media literacy. It is core and misleading manner, it can act. This is an extremely business for the education system. new area of concern and I am delighted that my right The second area in which we need to do more is honourable friend Harriet Harman is supporting the where, notwithstanding the considerable social change campaign. in recent decades, the ecology of families is such that The noble Lord, Lord Addington, talked about parents are also key participants in their children’s perfect male bodies and the diverse physiques that are engagement with the media—and so they should be. required to excel in different sports. The noble Lord We want to look at how best to help parents to guide touched on a really important point, not just for boys their children to help them deal with the commercial but for girls too. Physical activity, sport and participation messages transmitted via the old and the new media. in sport, which we are promoting through campaigns Where children and young people display risk-taking such as Change4Life and the five-hour commitment behaviour such as my noble friend Lady Massey described, for sport in schools, are essential. It is really important it is all the more important that we empower parents that we get girls participating in sport, because it is to act positively in the face of the internet and new through developing physical confidence that we can media so that they can help young people—particularly help to give them better body confidence. teenagers—as they take risks in the online world. We will say more about this in the Green Paper on families I am running out of time and it is so unfair, because that we will publish next year. there is so much more to say, but I will pick up on any It is also important that the regulatory framework additional points which I should have made. I was keeps pace with technical developments and the delighted with the story of our noble poster girl; it is a subsequent new media techniques that might be directed wonderful note on which to end. I thank the noble at children. Following public consultation on the guidelines Baroness, Lady Thomas, for making this debate possible for advertising through broadcast and non-broadcast and I apologise for not picking up on everything. media, the relevant codes are currently being revised. House adjourned at 7.41 pm

GC 53 Arrangement of Business[9 DECEMBER 2009] Immigration Regulations 2009 GC 54

The regulations will enable the identity card for Grand Committee foreign nationals to be issued to those applying to extend their stay under tier 2 of the points-based Wednesday, 9 December 2009. system, which covers: people coming in to fill vacancies that have been advertised to resident workers, but 3.45 pm when no residents were available to fill the vacancy, which includes those coming to fill shortage occupations; employees of multinational companies who are being Arrangement of Business transferred by an overseas employer to a skilled job in Announcement the UK-based branch of the organisation; elite sportspersons and coaches whose employment makes The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness a significant contribution to the development of their Harris of Richmond): My Lords, before the Minister sport at the highest level, such as Premier League moves that the first be considered, footballers; and people coming to fill a vacancy as a I remind noble Lords that in the case of each statutory minister of religion, missionary or member of religious instrument the Motion before the Committee will be order. that the Committee do consider the statutory instrument in question. I should make it clear that the Motions to The regulations also reflect the change in the approve the statutory instruments will be moved in the immigration category of “sole representative” to a Chamber in the usual way. “representative of an overseas business”, which is intended to encourage inward investment to the UK Immigration (Biometric Registration) by providing a means for overseas companies to transfer an employee to the UK in order to establish the UK (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2009 branch or wholly owned subsidiary. Considered in Grand Committee The regulations extend the definition of dependants 3.46 pm to include unmarried and same-sex partners. They also make provision for dependants of foreign nationals Moved By Lord Brett to apply for a card when applying for leave as a That the Grand Committee do report to the dependant. Such dependants will be able to apply for a House that it has considered the Immigration (Biometric card either at the same time or subsequent to the Registration) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2009. person on whom they are dependent becoming a Relevant Document: First Report from the Joint cardholder themselves. Committee on Statutory Instruments. I am pleased to have brought the regulations before the Committee today. They are an essential part of Lord Brett: My Lords, the Government remain our strategy for combating irregular migration and the committed to securing UK borders, improving associated abuses arising from such activities. The immigration control and reducing identity abuse. As regulations seek to combat those things and I hope part of that goal, we introduced biometric registration that the Committee will support them. powers in the UK Borders Act 2007 through which the Secretary of State is able to issue secure, reliable biometric documents to foreign nationals who are Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am grateful to the subject to immigration control. We issued the first Minister. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord identity cards to foreign nationals at the end of November Skelmersdale; on every other occasion in Grand 2008. Committee, I have been accustomed to going third. The regulations are designed to extend the category These Benches—noble Lords can see the support for foreign nationals required to apply for an identity behind me—do not support the regulations. We do card. They will amend the Immigration (Biometric not support the national identity card scheme so it Registration) Regulations 2008, which came into force follows that we do not support the regulations. Phrases on 25 November 2008. The 2008 regulations were such as “the thin end of the wedge” have been used on previously amended by the Immigration (Biometric a number of occasions. We have probably now moved Registration) (Amendment) Regulations 2009, which a little closer to the middle of the wedge. came into effect on 31 March 2009. Since warning the Minister last night of only a Since 25 November 2008, we have issued more than couple of questions that I thought I might have on the 120,000 identity cards to successful applicants. The regulations, thinking that most of the points would be scheme has enabled us to identify persons using false rhetorical, I have come up with some more questions. I identities to apply for leave, which has led to 15 successful apologise that I have not warned him of them, but prosecutions. A further 14 cases are awaiting prosecution they are all perfectly obvious and I am sure that he is and several other applications are under investigation. well briefed. The identity cards are a more secure means of First, since the scheme is being rolled out as part of demonstrating a person’s entitlement to work and live an incremental arrangement, what has been learned so in the United Kingdom. As we crack down on far? How successful is the scheme in the Government’s immigration abuse and identity fraud, it is a high view? How is the success measured? The Minister has priority to issue identity cards to foreign nationals told us that 120,000 cards have been issued, that there who are subject to immigration control. We therefore have been 15 successful prosecutions and that 14 cases want to continue our rollout by adding tier 2 skilled await prosecution. I assume that that means that they workers extending their stay in the UK. are awaiting trial and that all 29 refer to prosecutions GC 55 Immigration Regulations 2009[LORDS] Immigration Regulations 2009 GC 56

[BARONESS HAMWEE] There is great emphasis on the benefits to employers, made possible by the cards. I do not know whether the who have to check whether potential employees are Government are able to give us any comparison with entitled to work. In the debate on this regulations the pre-card regime. yesterday in the Commons, the Minister, , said that the scheme, Also, who were the stakeholders with whom the “is going very well. We are beginning to get reading machines out regulations were discussed? What were their views? there; we have a number”.—[Official Report, Commons, Third They are mentioned in paragraph 8.1 of the Explanatory Delegated Legislation Committee, 8/12/09; col. 7.] Memorandum. If there was no formal consultation on She said there were 12 reading machines in active use the regulations, presumably there is no formal collation at border controls and that they would be rolled out of the views but, in a scheme which is being rolled out, more widely. She said that the 12 readers would be it is fundamental that the views of stakeholders are deployed across major ports from January. Apart from accumulated and made available in some manner. the fact that 12 machines seem very few if this scheme I am aware that I have now probably been speaking is to be comprehensive, even as regards this relatively for as long as the Minister. I apologise to the small group, I do not understand how it can help Grand Committee, because I intend to go on for a bit employers until each employer has a reader or easy longer. access to a reader. I assume they are very expensive. Another benefit that the Government claim is that The Government have stated their reason for focusing the scheme will help stamp out health tourism. Those on foreign nationals—the difficulties experienced by who seek to extend their stay because they have come employers in deciding whether a foreign national is over for private medical treatment that has not finished entitled to work. I am intrigued to know how much will have practical difficulties in obtaining the card. more rolling out will be required for there to be full The chances are that they will be too unwell to traipse coverage of foreign nationals. Until it is full, how off to do whatever is necessary to get that extension much use is a partial scheme? I am intrigued to know recorded. that the regulations cover footballers and members of religious orders. To many citizens, those two would be We are also told in the Explanatory Memorandum much the same. Indeed, some football supporters regard that cards will make things easier for the groups themselves as missionaries for their sport and their concerned. I do not understand that. It is an overarching teams. It is difficult not to think of foreign nationals as point. Perhaps the Minister will be able to answer it. guinea pigs with relatively little public support. I do I shall not ask him to justify the regulations on the not mean groups that we have heard about—groups grounds of fighting terrorism because I am convinced that are likely to abuse or breach the requirements. We there is no answer. However, I shall ask, finally, whether know what happened when the Government tried to he can cheer us up by telling us that no further order extend the scheme to airport workers; no doubt that is or rollout is proposed in the next six months. why they are sticking with foreign nationals. What assurances can the Minister give about fears of Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I, too, thank the discrimination against some groups? Will this not Minister for explaining this statutory instrument with adversely impact on members of black and minority-ethnic such thoroughness and brevity. I am afraid that, like communities? the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, I may have to take a little longer than he did. Foreign nationals get the card only if they are here legally and already have documentation to prove it. The Government’s experience in using ID cards for Most people in this country illegally have come over migrants in this country in increasing numbers and on visas and have overstayed. I make the point, which categories is surely not unconnected to their desire has been made before and which we will make again ultimately to see them carried by every citizen. As the and again, that exit checks are needed, not ID cards. Minister will know, we are against such use. The We need to catch criminals, not just identify them. Minister will not be surprised that I, like the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, have a number of questions The appraisal annexed to the Explanatory Memorandum on these regulations. states that ID cards for foreign nationals will deter some illegal immigrants and will therefore reduce crime. 4pm What is that crime? Is it the crime of illegal immigration First, the Explanatory Memorandum to the regulations orisitsuggestedthatillegalimmigrantsaredisproportionately states that the extension of use of biometric immigration criminal in their tendencies? documents, or identity cards for foreign nationals—which On fee income from overseas students, it is stated is what they really are—will, that an element of the immigration fees paid by them “make it easier for these foreign nationals to demonstrate their is attributable to the card. Since most of the funding entitlements to their sponsor and access other benefits. It will also for their fees comes from overseas sources, the fee is make it easier for employers to confirm any entitlement to work counted as a benefit to the UK economy. I am not as the card clearly sets out the holder’s entitlements”. asking a question about this; I simply want to put on However, have the Government not failed to prepare record that I find that comment slightly shocking. business and public services to be able to check these The annexe also states that the card will make life ID cards? easier for the cardholder over time. I again make the The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, mentioned that point that only when there is a full rollout will we see the Minister’s colleague in another place had said that the benefits. 12 identity card readers had been issued by the GC 57 Immigration Regulations 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Immigration Regulations 2009 GC 58

Government. I believe that this statement was first I should probably know the answer to my next set made shortly after the beginning of October. Be that of questions, but I am afraid that I do not. Are student as it may, can the Minister update the Committee on visas time-limited? What happens at the end of their the number of readers that will be issued? Twelve, I courses? Do students return to their country of origin agree, seems a very small number. To my knowledge, and, if they want to work here, reapply for a visa or there is no timetable for the rollout of the readers. work permit from there, or can they do it from this I should also appreciate knowing how many readers country? the Government believe are needed and where they Despite what I have said, we on these Benches will be sited. The noble Baroness mentioned ports and support biometric identification for foreign nationals but, surely to goodness, for the scheme to in the form of biometric visas. Those details should be work properly, they should be much more widely kept on the appropriate database, whether disseminated. it is the asylum registration card or immigration casework Does the Minister also accept that the inability of database and so on, and not the national identity organisations to scan or read these biometric documents register. We shall not on this occasion oppose the has already resulted in the creation of a black market regulations, but the Government should not be distracted in fake ID cards? The Explanatory Memorandum or justify failing to address the many weaknesses in further states that employers will not be required to existing systems by putting in place an expensive measure undertake any additional checks. Does that mean that from which I can see no prospect of stopping illegal employers will not have to check the ID cards of immigration or terrorism. foreign nationals whom they already employ, and who will be required to apply? How can one possibly expect Lord Brett: My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their someone who employs, for example, a foreign cleaner contributions. I was indeed brief. I see no great point to know whether their employee is domiciled legally in in going back over an ID card debate which has been this country? resolved and is now in statute. I do not criticise at all Secondly, part of the Government’s justification for the fact that other political parties have a different extending the categories of foreign nationals required view about identity cards, which they have held to apply for identity cards is the need to, consistently. On the broader point, which I accept, we are seeking to provide an incremental approach. Effective “phase out less secure documents”. from the end of November, identity cards became Which documents are classed as “less secure” by the available voluntarily—“voluntarily” is the important Government? Why are biometric visas considered more word—to those who live and work in Greater , secure, given that they are already being produced by and to airside workers at Manchester and London the criminal fraternity? City airports. It is in that sense that the word “voluntary” Thirdly, the Explanatory Memorandum states: becomes critical, except where we have a requirement “Once the National Identity Register is fully operational it is on people, for reasons which these regulations seek to the Government’s intention that the identity card for foreign identify. A number of interesting points were made by nationals will be designated as a document under section 4 of the the Liberal Democrat and Conservative spokespersons , as soon as it is practical”. and I will try to deal with them in the order in which I Is it therefore the Government’s intention eventually took them on board. to store the details of foreign nationals on the national The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, referred to identity register alongside those of British citizens? health tourism and those people who are unable because What would be the rationale for joining those data of health conditions—or, indeed, anything else—to sets, if the Government intend so to do? Somewhat attend a public inquiry office or a post office to related to this, can the Minister confirm that further acquire the document. The answer is that those who information will be added to the identity cards at a are under medical treatment should apply for an extension later date? of stay for that medical treatment. Mobile units can be deployed for applicants who are unable to attend a Finally, one of the Government’s rationales for public inquiry office. Therefore, there is no reason to issuing identity cards to those granted further leave to believe that those individuals would be denied their stay in the United Kingdom under tier 2 of the points- rights to apply and to be successful in acquiring the based system is, card that they need. “to enable UKBA to bring forward the rollout of identity cards I was asked what, effectively, is the value of the card to higher risk categories”. to the incoming tier 2 worker. The card provides a Will all high-risk categories now be covered? If not, single document that confirms not just status but, what are the remaining high-risk categories and when importantly, entitlement to work, and access to public do the Government intend to roll out ID cards to funds and local services where that applies. It combines them? quite a number of documents into one much simpler Does the Minister accept that foreign students remain to understand document. a high-risk category, despite being covered by ID card Discrimination concerns us all. In the summer, I legislation? How many foreign students in the UK covered the job of Meg Hillier while she was on have ID cards and is it compulsory for students applying maternity leave. She is the Minister responsible for from abroad to register for them in advance? Would it identity cards at the Home Office. The truth is that we not be better for the Government to focus their efforts have been closely in concert with the Commissioner on tackling the gaps in the student visa regime rather for Racial Equality to ensure that this scheme is fair. than being distracted by attempts to roll out ID cards? I believe that it is the reverse of discrimination. Someone GC 59 Immigration Regulations 2009[LORDS] Immigration Regulations 2009 GC 60

[LORD BRETT] out in retail, finance and local authorities, not just at who has this card would be able to avoid any suggestion borders. I have been carrying a chip-and-PIN card in of discrimination because it gives a clear identity and my wallet for a number of years. For at least half that would protect those individuals. I will come to that time it was of no use whatever because there were no when I deal with the other questions that have been chip-and-PIN readers in retail establishments or banks. put. However, over time, when the value of the chip-and-PIN On stakeholder consultation, there has been extensive card—in this case, a credit card—became known, they engagement with stakeholders, both those who are became worth investing in on the part of retailers, likely to require identity cards or volunteer to have finance companies or local authorities. When a lot of them, and those who are likely to want to engage with people were prepared to invest in the cards, the capital identity cards in the business community.Key stakeholders costs of investment fell. I believe that in the longer include major employers, universities, the finance sector term that will also be the case when the identity card and business groups including the Federation of Small rolls out. I make that last point before I encourage the Businesses and the CBI. That consultation led to the noble Lord to rise to his feet. I am not inviting a card being positively received by applicants, employers debate on the broader aspect; I am simply saying and universities, but some concern was expressed that where I believe card readers are going in the longer the requirement for skilled workers to apply for the term. He is absolutely right; in the short and medium card could inconvenience them. To address that, the term we have to provide card readers at borders. They UKBA has introduced additional enrolment centres are used at airports and ports. I am happy to send the and contracts for enrolment centres to be provided by noble Lord a list detailing that. the Post Office. There was a problem of people coming The relationship between the information on the into one part of the country and being greatly identity card and that on the national identity register inconvenienced by not being able to get to a convenient was raised by our Liberal Democrat colleagues during centre. We have now extended that facility to 17 Crown the passage of the borders Bill. Information about post offices, which will allow applicants to enrol at individuals who apply for identity cards will be recorded more convenient times—for example, at lunch times on the national identity register; that is a simple fact. and on Saturday mornings. There is no requirement to have an appointment for such an enrolment, so it Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, before the noble should be relatively easy. Lord gets on to that point, he gave the example of Again on discrimination, this will apply only to chip-and-PIN cards, such as debit and credit cards, those who are subject to immigration control. Those eventually being read in shops and banks. Does that who are subject will have to apply for leave only if they mean that the readers for these biometric cards are wish to stay in the UK. If they are granted that leave, expected to be provided by the private sector and by they will be issued with a resident’s permit as proof of local authorities but not by central Government? their immigration status. That comes in the form of a vignette sticker for foreign nations, which contains Baroness Hamwee: As part of that question, does certain biometric information to satisfy requirements the Minister accept that there is a fundamental difference of EU regulations. Those regulations oblige the UK to here in that retailers wish to encourage purchasers to issue residence permits in a biometric format to replace make purchases by making that process as convenient the existing non-biometric documents. Therefore, we as possible for them? I do not think that is comparable believe this card will serve the purposes of applicants, to the ID card situation. employers, local government and local social services. Importantly, it has been well received and has helped Lord Brett: I was responding to the broader question to secure our borders. We have heard about the 29 people of the rollout of card readers. The noble Baroness is who are subject to legal process. This has led to prison absolutely right; that is a responsibility of Government. sentences of four to 18 months being imposed. The That is why we are placing them at ports of entry and measure has helped to capture escaped prisoners, including airports. In the broader and longer term—and I should one connected with a firearms offence. What have we probably have tried to avoid this debate by not commenting learnt to ensure that the system is customer-friendly? at all—when the value of chip and PIN was seen by We have learnt that it must meet the needs of customers. the retail and finance industries they were prepared to That is why—as I have just mentioned—we have increased invest. We believe that it will be similar with identity the system’s capacity by extending it through post offices. cards. In the experiments of the past and the rollout The quantified benefits are listed in the assessment that we have now, there is an indication that, for but they are subject to complex rules. The calculations example, an advantage that applies to a student population are complex and many of the quantified benefits are does not necessarily apply to someone of my venerable cross-cutting. We keep benefits under review and in age. The ID card can be used in a nightclub or another future may be able to quantify further benefits in a establishment that requires people to carry their wider national identity scheme as it is implemented, to prove their age at the moment. It can also be carried and as the opportunities for improving efficiency are around all the countries of Europe and the EEA, identified. All sectors covered by the card will be without the requirement to have a . Those are recognised. not necessarily arguments for this debate—they may Card readers exercised the noble Baroness and the be for a broader area of debate—but we do not noble Lord. If you look at the long term—I am going anticipate a further order on this issue or related issues back to the ID card debate, which I do not really want in the next six months. I think that that will bring to get into—eventually we will have card readers rolled noble Lords some relief. GC 61 Immigration Regulations 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Crime Act 2003 Order 2009 GC 62

4.15 pm contradicted if I get it wrong, but I will launch into it. I turn to some of the other questions, although I The problem referred to may indeed be part of the am not sure that I will get them all. The noble Lord, gestation for the Starred Question—that there is more Lord Skelmersdale, has a tremendous appetite for difficulty around people who come to the United questions that require detailed answers, which I am Kingdom for a short period with visas under the new more than happy to respond to, although I am not regime. By including sport personalities and others, sure that I can respond to them orally and do justice to we seek to overcome that. I suspect that there will still their value. However, I can almost certainly provide a be some problems for people with short-term requirements written response. who come on short-term visas, but there has always been a problem in relation to people in the business We do not believe that we see, so far at least, any sector who may have an engagement in London or black market in identity cards. There may be one in Manchester at very short notice. We do not seek to do identity cards for other purposes, but the cards that anything different; we certainly do not intend to make are being produced are quite difficult to copy. There things more difficult for them. I suspect that the was a Daily Mail article a year ago—or in the summer, question has been raised on several occasions and that at least—that pretended that an identity card had been my Home Office colleagues are sympathetic to finding cloned, but it demonstrably did not clone the national a solution to it. The regulations do not make life more identity card that is produced under these regulations. difficult in any way; I hope that they would ease the It took a blank card and put its own information on it. situation somewhat. If that is an inadequate answer, I Although there is always a danger that technology, will ensure that I get another answer to the noble Lord criminality and ingenuity go together to defeat us, at in quick time—before the beginning of next week. the moment we certainly do not believe that that is happening. Indeed, we think that we have designed a card that it would be extremely difficult to clone or Lord Skelmersdale: I am very grateful. I probably forge. made a mistake in mentioning Tuesday’s Question. Of A question was asked about discrimination, and I course, the noble Baroness and I both asked questions hope that we have dealt with that. The current vignette about students in specific relation to the regulations, that is placed in the passport will be replaced by 2014, but if the noble Lord is happy to write I am sure that when it is assumed that 90 per cent of foreign nationals she, and certainly I, would be happy to receive his will have an identity card. That achievement will provide missive. third-country nationals with a single document to confirm identity, status and entitlement to work and Lord Brett: I can answer one simple point. I was facilitate access to services. We believe that that is a asked whether visas for students were time-related. reverse of discrimination and provides employers, They are related to the course that they are on. A universities and others that provide such services with problem raised with us was about students having a a single document that can be accepted as identity and course in medicine or what have you that went beyond entitlement. At the moment there are numerous the normal period of a university degree. That is one documents that can be produced as proof of identity of the issues that has been taken care of. and entitlement, but that causes confusion and a considerable burden in authenticating documentation Motion agreed. and confirming identity and entitlement. We hope that what we are putting forward is a much simpler but non-discriminatory way of protecting our borders and Crime (International Co-operation) Act the individuals concerned. 2003 (Designation of Participating A number of other questions need to be answered, Countries) (England, Wales and Northern but we have taken a considerable time in a long day of Ireland) (No. 3) Order 2009 statutory instruments. I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, in particular, would be content Considered in Grand Committee for me to respond in writing to the questions that he put, or whether any particular question burns into his 4.22 pm heart and soul so badly that he cannot live without an Moved By Lord Brett answer given orally. That the Grand Committee do report to the Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, if that is a reference House that it has considered the Crime (International to my amateur dramatic past, I think that we had Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating better forget it. There is only one question from the list Countries) (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) that I produced that the Minister has not answered to (No. 3) Order 2009. which I would be extremely grateful for an answer Relevant Document: First Report from the Joint today, on the subject of students, given that we have a Committee on Statutory Instruments. Starred Question on Tuesday on students, artists and that sort of thing. Lord Brett: My Lords, the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 provides a streamlined and Lord Brett: My Lords, it is tempting to say that, if modernised framework pursuant to which the United there is a Starred Question, why would I spoil the Kingdom can both make and execute requests for theatre of the Chamber by answering it now? I will be mutual legal assistance. In an effort to further improve GC 63 Crime Act 2003 Order 2009[LORDS] Crime Act 2003 Order 2009 GC 64

[LORD BRETT] supervised by a court in the participating country. international co-operation we seek to designate , Designating the relevant states as participating countries , , the former Yugoslav for the purposes of Section 47 will allow the temporary Republic of Macedonia, Israel, , transfer of UK prisoners to that participating country and as participating countries for the to assist with investigations into an offence that may purpose of various sections of that Act. or may not have been committed in the UK. Similarly, The designations that will be made under the order designation for the purpose of Section 48 will allow are required to enable the UK to ratify the second the temporary transfer of prisoners from a participating additional protocol to the European Convention on country to the United Kingdom to assist with Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters, which the investigations into an offence which was, or may have noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and I discussed on been, committed in that participating country. Monday evening as part of the debate on an excellent Designation as participating countries for the purposes report from one of your Lordships’ Select Committees. of Sections 4 and 4B of the 2003 Act will mean that The convention is an important instrument in the service of process, written charges or requisitions from provision of mutual legal assistance between states the UK to persons in participating countries must be and forms the treaty basis for a high proportion of by post, save where the person’s correct address is both incoming and outgoing requests for criminal unknown, where it has not been possible to serve the mutual legal assistance. The second additional protocol process by post, where there are good reasons for is aimed at strengthening mutual legal assistance among thinking that service by post will not be effective or the parties to the convention and widening the scope where it is inappropriate. Switzerland is not designated of mutual legal assistance which is available. As I said, here as it has already been designated as a participating it is worth noting that the House of Lords Select country for the purpose of these sections at an earlier Committee on the European Union made clear in its date. recent report on money-laundering and terrorist financing, The UK is committed to improving the provision of which was the subject of an excellent debate on Monday, mutual legal assistance, which is a key tool in ensuring that it is keen that the UK move swiftly towards that cross-border crime can be combated and that ratification of the second additional protocol. That is justice is achieved for British victims of crime. Ratifying what we are taking forward in this order. the second additional protocol will further these aims. I shall read my brief slowly, because it confuses me This order, which will allow us to ratify the second when I read it quickly. To ratify the second additional additional protocol, will therefore be of great benefit protocol the UK needs, among other things, to be able to British victims of crime. I accordingly commend to deal with requests for mutual legal assistance in the order to the Committee. accordance with Sections 31, 47 and 48 of, and paragraph 15 of Schedule 2 to, the Crime (International Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, I am most grateful Co-operation) Act 2003, and to ensure that UK criminal to the Minister for explaining this order, which designates process is served overseas in line with the provisions of a number of countries as participating countries for Sections 4 and 4B of the same Act. the purposes of the Crime (International Co-operation) Under the scheme of the 2003 Act, for the UK to Act 2003. This means that the number of arrangements seek and provide mutual legal assistance to a country for mutual legal assistance for criminal matters that in accordance with these provisions, it is stated that it the UK can have with other countries and vice versa is must fall within the definition of a “participating increased. That is good. As the Minister also said, this country” in Section 51(2)(b) of the 2003 Act. order covers the temporary transfer of prisoners to assist in investigations, allows a witness to provide A country falls to be regarded as a participating evidence by telephone for use in proceedings in another country under Section 51(2)(b) if it was a member participating country and states the procedure by which state of the European Union on the date on which the process must be served on an individual. The countries relevant provision of the 2003 Act was commenced or being designated today are members of the Council of if it has been designated as a participating country in Europe, and many of them are candidate countries for an order made by the Secretary of State. EU membership or are observer states, such as Israel. While most of the countries which are parties to the The Council of Europe has done much to harmonise second additional protocol were member states of the legal standards between countries. Mutual legal assistance EU on the date on which Sections 4, 4B, 31, 47 and 48 in criminal matters is no exception and is important. of, and paragraph 15 of Schedule 2 to, the 2003 Act As we agreed in Monday’s debate on the EU were commenced, and therefore fall to be regarded as committee’s report, crime is increasingly cross-border. participating countries for the purpose of those provisions, The problem is that differences between national some of the ratifying states were not. Accordingly, this procedures can mean that information gathered in one order seeks to designate those states as participating country cannot be used in another because the way countries for the purpose of those provisions. that the information was obtained does not fit with The effect of the designations will be as follows. the national procedural requirements. This was the Designating the relevant states as participating countries rationale for the 1959 European Convention on Mutual for the purposes of Section 31 of, and paragraph 15 of Assistance in Criminal Matters, which provides that a Schedule 2 to, the 2003 Act will allow the UK to requesting state can ask another state to comply with execute requests for witnesses in this country to give some formalities or procedural requirements essential evidence in foreign proceedings by telephone and to under the former’s national legislation. However, the ensure that where such evidence is given the process is backdrop of our consideration of this order must be GC 65 Crime Act 2003 Order 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Crime Act 2003 Order 2009 GC 66 how far we have confidence in the judicial and police and “joint intelligence teams”. Can the Minister please systems of other countries that will be parties to the expand on what these issues are and how the Government reciprocal agreements. Can the Minister therefore say have addressed and are addressing them? Earlier this how the adherence of participating countries to year the Government estimated that the UK would agreements on mutual legal assistance, including standards ratify the protocol by the autumn. Clearly this is no of treatment in criminal matters, is monitored and longer the case, so when do the Government now ensured? expect to do so? Also, how are the Government encouraging other countries to ratify the protocol? I 4.30 pm will not repeat the obvious question that I asked on This is particularly important in the context of Monday because I am awaiting the Minister’s missive Chapter 5. I am dealing with this a little more broadly on that and other subjects. than the Minister did with his specific references to As I said, mutual legal assistance is important, but sections of and schedules to the Act. These provisions the Government must be careful about how it is used. deal with the transfer of UK prisoners to a participating On the basis that the Minister can give your Lordships’ country to assist with a criminal investigation into an Committee the appropriate assurances that I have offence which was, or may have been, committed in asked for, we can support the order. the United Kingdom. Corresponding provisions allow Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, a number of my for the transfer of prisoners to this country. questions were very similar to those of the noble Lord, The noble Lord will know that people in prison, Lord Skelmersdale, so I will not take the time of the either on remand or as convicted prisoners, are potentially Committee by repeating them. I thank the Minister for vulnerable to pressure to consent to transfer orders. his presentation of the order and assure him that we Can he therefore, on behalf of the Government, give support what the Government propose and that my your Lordships’ Grand Committee a clear assurance comments will be easier than those on the last order. that any such prisoner being transferred to any of the When I saw the order, I asked my noble friend Lord countries listed in the order will receive appropriate Wallace whether he had any comments, leading as he legal advice and say what that appropriate legal advice does on foreign affairs. Almost inevitably, he pointed will be; and that they will not be placed under implied to the juxtaposition of Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina or actual pressure to give their consent? This is important and Switzerland, and asked whether the Government because—it should be noted—this consent cannot be had previously considered the quality of the Swiss withdrawn once given. This has an added importance, police and prosecuting authorities to be on the same given that the provisions also do not exclude the level as those of the states of the western Balkans, and transfer of particularly vulnerable prisoners, such as co-operation with them to have been comparably difficult. those under the age of 18; albeit that provision is made I take his point that Switzerland is not now being for an appropriate adult to give consent in certain designated, as it already has been. I do not know circumstances on behalf of a youthful or physically or whether it is fully participating or will be when this is mentally disadvantaged person. Can the Minister assure passed, if that is the right way to put it. Perhaps more us that a transferred prisoner’s return to the United sloppily,are all aspects now covered as regards Switzerland? Kingdom from the countries listed in this order, which include the Balkans and Israel, will be guaranteed and I have warned the Minister of these questions. Are that steps will be taken to ensure their safety while in there any remaining European countries which are not these countries’ custody? Can the Minister clearly participating? With regard to the service of process to state what steps will be taken to ensure their safety? be undertaken by the post, how reliable are the postal services in the countries in question? How is service Finally, the Government have said that they expect achieved now, before the order comes into effect? I ask the power to transfer prisoners to be used rarely. How that question from my background as a solicitor. I no many prisoners have been transferred to other countries longer practise but the scars of failing, or being aware to date under the current arrangements, particularly of other people failing, to serve something stay painfully to assist in the investigation of crimes that are alleged deep with one. I should say that my firm was never in to have taken place here in the United Kingdom? Can that position. It was from observing others. the Minister give your Lordships’ Committee a clear I would imagine that any expenses attached to the assurance that the Government will not permit transfers, new arrangements for travel, telephone and so on either from or to the United Kingdom, within the EU, would be de minimis, but the Minister might like to the Balkans and Israel, which offend this country’s comment on that. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, understanding and sense of proportionality and fairness? has asked about the protection of prisoners going to I turn now to a related matter. In extending the certain other countries. Will the Minister comment on number of states designated as participating countries, custody conditions in the countries concerned? We this order is required before the United Kingdom can will all have read about the luxurious accommodation ratify the second additional protocol to the European in Gstaad made available to one person who is being convention, of which we heard quite a lot on Monday. held in Switzerland, but I hardly think that that is We know that it is the Government’s intention to ratify typical. The more serious question is with regard to the protocol. The European Select Committee was some of the countries whose facilities are perhaps not critical that it had taken the Government since 2001—eight as developed as those in western Europe. years—to reach this point. In evidence to the committee, a Home Office official said that this was because of, Lord Brett: My Lords, I thank noble Lords who “one or two policy issues … around mutual recognition in areas have participated. Their questions are rightly raised in like control, delivery, covert surveillance”, terms of not only our willingness to work with colleagues GC 67 Crime Act 2003 Order 2009[LORDS] Crime Act 2003 Order 2009 GC 68

[LORD BRETT] if they chose not to consent. They would need to seek abroad but to ensure that anyone who is subject to the legal advice if necessary, but it would be their responsibility transfers is treated as he would be, and no worse than, and not that of the state. in the United Kingdom. To deal with the questions I was asked how many requests have been received more or less in the order that they were raised, the under Sections 47 and 48. The answer is very simple: noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, asked about the adherence to date, the UK has neither made nor received any of participating countries. such requests. Consequently, no prisoner has been Parts of the 1959 convention undertake to give the transferred to or from the United Kingdom under widest measure of mutual assistance possible within these powers. It is not envisaged that the designation domestic law. The MLA process relies on good faith, of these countries will lead to a large number of such mutual trust and a common interest in fighting crime. exchange requests. MLA arrangements between the UK and countries The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, was rightly designated in this order have been good and ratification concerned that the transfer of prisoners should be of the second additional protocol should only strengthen proportionate. In considering the proportionality of those relations. If any problem arises in relation to the any temporary transfer to assist in criminal investigations, MLA, the aim will be to deal with these problems at three important points are to be kept in mind. First, official level and to escalate them to a ministerial level the transfer should be for only a short period and as if necessary. If that does not prove to be successful long as was necessary to assist in the investigation in were there to be a problem, there is a provision in the question. That point would be made at the time of second additional protocol, Article 29, to support the request from the MLA transfer country. Secondly, the friendly settlement of any problem arising out of the transfer should be carried out only with the consent of application of the convention and its protocols through the relevant prisoner. Thirdly, the purpose of the the European Community on Crime Problems of the transfer should be to assist with a criminal investigation. Council of Europe. I am sure that most noble Lords would find that aim On ratification and entry into force, the Government easy to understand and recognise its importance. are bringing forward another piece of necessary secondary Given the limited circumstances in which a transfer legislation to ratify the protocol. This statutory instrument of a prisoner could therefore take place and the fact is in relation to civil and criminal liability of officers in that they were being transferred quite voluntarily, international joint investigation teams. It will be subject together with the important public interest that such to a negative resolution. Once this is laid before Parliament, transfers could serve, I can see no argument for their and if this secondary legislation is passed by the being deemed disproportionate. If it were, the transfer House, the UK Government will be in a position to would have to be shown to be compatible with the prepare instruments of ratification with the second ECHR. If the transfer were considered to be additional protocol. It would then enter into force on disproportionate when measured against that, it could the first day of the month following the expiry of three not take place. months after the date on which the UK deposits the The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, asked a number instrument of ratification with the Secretary-General of related questions, one of which was about Switzerland. of the Council of Europe. The aim is to complete that Having spent considerable time during the past 12 or process as quickly as possible. 15 years in Switzerland, I have views about its democracy Ratification of the second additional protocol is and the way in which it applies locally, but I do not necessary for the UK to be able to access the full range believe that anyone could accuse the Swiss police of mutual legal assistance available under it. It provides authorities or police force of being other than of the a framework for a broad range of mutual legal assistance highest standard. It is a consequence of Switzerland and is specifically available to states that have ratified not being in the EU that it does not fall automatically it. This includes assistance in relation to joint investigation to be considered a participating country. Therefore, teams, covert investigations and controlled deliveries. there must be an international agreement to which The protocol also provides a number of operational both the UK and Switzerland are party, and it would benefits. By requiring process to be sent directly to need to be designated as a participating country for it individuals and by allowing direct transmission of to be fully involved. For example, it has already been mutual legal assistance requests by prosecutors, designated for service of process under the previous bureaucracy is reduced and the entire mutual legal EU-Switzerland agreement, but the problem with that assistance process expedited. It is important for the was that it dealt with fraud but did not go any wider. UK to show its commitment to MLA internationally However, Switzerland has ratified the second additional and the importance that it attaches to it as a tool in the protocol, and we intend to do likewise. Therefore, it is fight against international crime. We hope that this necessary and appropriate that we designate it as a move will encourage other countries which have not member state in our participating country list. signed or ratified the protocol to go through the same process, perhaps without the great expanse of time between signing and ratification which was a criticism 4.45 pm of the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, The question was asked, “Who is, who isn’t?”. All which I found hard to argue against. current EU member states are participating countries On legal assistance, it is entirely a matter for the for the purpose of the Crime (International Co-operation) prisoner concerned whether they wish to consent to Act 2003, which means that all EU member states can any temporary transfer. No pressure would be applied, benefit from the provisions of that Act, which is and there would be no adverse consequences for them relevant only to participating countries. The Council GC 69 Crime Act 2003 Order 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Social Security Regulations 2009 GC 70 of Europe countries, EU and non-EU, which have not weeks rather than more weeks. The festive season is yet ratified or signed the second additional protocol getting in the way, but it will certainly be a matter of are as follows. Those that have signed but not ratified weeks rather than months. are Armenia, Cyprus, Finland, , Germany, Greece, Hungary, , Ireland, Luxembourg, Malta, the Baroness Hamwee: The Minister referred, rightly, , , Slovenia, Sweden, and to the consent of the prisoner being required for a the United Kingdom—but we have now declared our transfer. I assume that it is implicit that the consent intent and are legislating so to do. The 12 that have can be withdrawn at any time so that the prisoner neither signed nor ratified the protocol, in contrast to could require to be returned. Will he confirm whether those that have signed but not yet ratified, are , that is the case? If he cannot do so now, perhaps he Austria, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Italy, Lichtenstein, could come back to us on that. Moldova, , Russia, , Spain and Turkey. Lord Brett: I presume that that is the case. I shall The noble Baroness and the noble Lord were concerned look bemused and hope that somebody nods at me—and, about the custody conditions into which prisoners yes, they have done. To me, that is natural justice. If might be transferred, however temporarily. As we consent is required, consent for retaining the person is said, the consent of the person in custody in the first also required. I am pleased to say that the answer is instance is required, otherwise it will not take place. positive. Additionally, we are bound by the Human Rights Act to act in accordance with convention rights, and it Motion agreed. would not be appropriate to send a person into custody in a country where custody conditions could give rise to a breach of the ECHR. For the purposes of this Social Security (Contributions Credits for order, a person in custody in the UK would be only temporarily transferred on the rare occasion when Parents and Carers) Regulations 2009 they were assisting with a UK investigation abroad. Considered in Grand Committee The noble Baroness raised the question of expenses. With the exception of costs related to TV/video link 4.50 pm evidence and to the temporary transfer of a prisoner Moved By Lord McKenzie of Luton into and out of the UK, it is standard practice with mutual legal assistance that the requested country That the Grand Committee do report to the meets the cost of providing assistance and that the House that it has considered the Social Security cost of providing telephone connections and so on (Contributions Credits for Parents and Carers) would be de minimis. Regulations 2009. What difficulties have we seen with the process? Relevant Document: 22nd Report, Session 2008-09, How reliable are the postal services in other countries from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. and how do we achieve this? There is no difficulty in serving the process in the vast majority of cases. Currently the service of process in these countries can The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, be effected by post or by sending a relevant document Department for Communities and Local Government & to a country’s central authority and requesting the use Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of of postal services. But most often it is effected by using Luton): My Lords, the regulations were laid before the private companies such as FedEx, UPS or whatever, House on 12 October. Before I proceed further, I wish so the quality of the postal service within the country to state that in my view this statutory instrument is is not necessarily a matter of real concern. At the compatible with the European Convention on Human moment, services can still be sent by post, but the Rights. order makes it an obligation that it should be sent by The background to the regulations is the credits for post, save in the limited circumstances to which I parents and carers, introduced into the Social Security referred. That will minimise bureaucracy and ensure Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 by the Pensions that documents are served as quickly as possible. Act 2007, which both replaces and builds on the home I think that that deals with most of the questions. responsibilities protection provisions. The Act introduced When we ratify depends on the second SI, but we are a new carer’s credit available to people engaged in determined to move forward as quickly as we can. caring, which the regulations provide to include caring I hope, with noble Lords’ support, we can ensure that for one or more persons for a total of 20 hours a week this order goes on its way and that we are one step or more. closer to the overdue ratification. The Committee may recall that, when the credit was first proposed, it was to be available only where the persons cared for were in receipt of a relevant Lord Skelmersdale: I may have missed it, but the disability-related benefit. However, following discussions noble Lord spoke about a second order, which will be with carers’ representatives, it was decided to extend a negative instrument. Has he any idea when this the provision to those caring for at least 20 hours a might be brought forward? week for people without a qualifying benefit, but where the need for care was certified by a health or Lord Brett: We are in the Christmas season, but we social care professional. The provisions were warmly hope that it will be a matter of weeks—and fewer welcomed by noble Lords but there were some reservations GC 71 Social Security Regulations 2009[LORDS] Social Security Regulations 2009 GC 72

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] these new credits. They put in place the final piece of concerning the delegation of the provisions to regulations. the legislation designed to enhance the pension prospects I hope that these regulations, which define “engaged in of carers and others with broken work records. The caring” and are the result of extensive collaboration credits, together with the reduction in the number of with stakeholders, will reassure noble Lords. qualifying years and the single contribution condition, The overall consensus has been that the certification will mean that from next April around three-quarters arrangements should operate with a “light touch” to of women reaching pension age will qualify for a full avoid disqualifying someone who is not in regular basic state pension, compared to around half without contact with professional health agencies. Consequently, these changes. Ultimately, around 95 per cent of women the range of people who are able to certify the need for will qualify for a full basic state pension. It will become care is designed to be as broad as possible. There is no possible to obtain a full pension solely on the basis of prescribed list of people who could certify, and this credit so that, for the first time, caring will be fully on could be done, for instance, by a member of a voluntary a par with paid employment. I recommend these group in regular contact with the person being cared regulations to the Committee. for. We have worked throughout with representatives Lord Freud: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his from Carers UK, which has helped to produce the full explanation of how these regulations will work. guidance for certifiers. I am delighted that we have I also welcome the statutory instrument, which puts also been able to work with Carers UK to produce a into effect measures which I know my noble friend most successful Carers Rights Day last Friday, which Lord Skelmersdale strongly supported in Committee this year had a theme relevant to these regulations of on the then Pensions Bill a little more than two years “Caring for your Pension”. ago. As a result of these credits for carers, around 160,000 These regulations ensure that carers and foster parents more people could start to gain a credit for the basic obtain full contribution credits for national insurance state pension in 2010, including around 115,000 women. purposes. It is clearly in the interests of the state and, Also around 240,000 more people could accrue entitlement indeed, of all of us, that people who take on these to state second pension than are currently doing so, important and historically undervalued roles are allowed including around 145,000 women. The Committee maximum flexibility in building up their rights to may have noticed that these figures are somewhat receive state pensions and other relevant support. To higher than those contained in the Explanatory that extent, it makes a statement about the social value Memorandum to the regulations. The lower figures of the role of caring. The regulations spell out the represent those estimated to gain through caring for mechanism by which carers will get carer’s credit and, someone with a disability-related benefit only. They in particular, whether the person they are caring for is do not include those where the need for care is certified. entitled to benefit. The approach adopted here is the We have arranged for the Explanatory Memorandum introduction of the care certificate and the reliance on to be corrected and relaid. certification by health and social care professionals, The regulations also include some provisions to and even, in some cases, members of voluntary groups, help other carers. Foster carers, defined here, and all approved by the Secretary of State. people getting child benefit for a child under 12 are I note that the Minister talked about this process expressly provided for in the Social Security Contributions being conducted with a light touch. I am sure we are and Benefits Act 1992. Also in respect of child benefit, all aware of the current concern being expressed at the Regulation 5(1)(a) provides for the partners of child so-called light-touch regulation in so far as it applied benefit recipients to be treated as “engaged in caring” to our ruined financial sector. I became concerned for the purposes of these credits. That is when the when I read the draft notes for certifiers about what child benefit recipient cannot themselves benefit from was being required from them. Clearly it is a sophisticated the credits because he or she already has a qualifying judgment, as one can see when one looks at the year for basic and additional pension purposes—most definition of care. The draft states that care may take usually through paid work. many forms; that it is important that we recognise a wide range of caring responsibilities; and that it is From April 2008, we introduced a similar provision equally important that we take a balanced view which for transferring HRP entitlement between partners. does not reward somebody for performing duties that That has proved very useful on those occasions where would normally be considered day-to-day housekeeping. the “wrong person” has claimed child benefit and The second implication of these draft guidance notes their partner, at home with the children, would otherwise is that it is a time-consuming requirement. The notes not have received credits towards a state pension. refer to needing to know the circumstances of the I need to draw noble Lords’ attention to one small particular carer in some detail. The implication is that drafting error in the regulations. As some may have the certifier needs to keep in touch with developments noticed, the words, in case circumstances change, so it is quite a sophisticated “is in receipt of income support”, burden. in Regulation 10(2)(a) are superfluous. Income support carers, defined in Regulation 5(1)(c), are not required 5pm to make an application. In the austere times we are facing, I hope that this In summary, these regulations seek to ensure that new light-touch regime does two things: first, that it is the greatest number of genuine carers benefit from effective in preventing fraudulent claims; and, secondly, GC 73 Social Security Regulations 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Social Security Regulations 2009 GC 74 that it does not bring with it a heavy burden of Minister promised to consider it in the context of regulatory oversight. My concern is that if there were regulations, was entitled “certification scheme for carers” lurid stories in the press about people abusing the and would have put in the Bill the proposals that we system, the reaction would be to tighten up, and make are now considering. far heavier, the regulatory burden as opposed to the The 2006 White Paper Security in Retirement, which light touch which is envisaged. The risk with such a floated a narrower reform, pointed out that around system is that it is expensive in the requirements it 390,000 carers were not accruing basic pension rights. imposes and in the direct costs of operation. I shall be The White Paper went on to observe that 120,000 of most interested to hear the Minister’s response on the those carers, who were caring for 20 hours or more a assessment that the department has made of the issues week, appeared to face more difficulties in the labour surrounding fraud and cost in this area. I should also market, not altogether surprisingly, than those caring like to be told the absolute cost of incorporating these for fewer than 20 hours a week. The regulations will extra people into the state pension system, as I could ensure that at least they are not now compromising not find that in the notes. their pension entitlement by their most valuable caring The inclusion of foster carers in the regulations activities and not just for those disabled people on makes sense in the context of the severe difficulties qualifying benefits. As we know, a lot of sick and that we have seen in recent years in the provision of disabled people just cannot face applying for, or just fostering places. Anything that makes fostering easier will not apply for, disability living allowance or attendance and more rewarding is to be welcomed. However, the allowance, or are past the qualifying age for applying regulations are likely to improve provision very much for DLA. at the margin. The challenge to the Government remains It is also welcome that the credits will be available to make sure that there is adequate and stable fostering for up to 12 weeks to cover periods of sickness, for children. We have had warnings from those involved holidays and respite care, as well as occasions when in the fostering sector that there is a shortage of the disabled person is in hospital and has had any people prepared to be foster parents—therefore, the qualifying benefit withdrawn. I presume that if no options, when placing children, are narrowed—and qualifying benefits have been received, under this that too few people are entering the area at a time regulation the carer will still be covered for 12 weeks. when we face a looming generational changeover. That was not entirely clear in the Explanatory Therefore, my second area of inquiry to the Minister Memorandum. A carer friend of mine says that she is is: how do these regulations fit into the Government’s almost busier than normal when her son is in hospital. measure to ease the shortage of foster carers? I broaden out the question of care to refer to the I, too, thank the Minister for sending the guidance Government’s current plans on providing a national notes for certifiers. I note that they are to be published care service, of which the provisions we are discussing on the internet. Will they be available anywhere in would clearly form part. The Green Paper, Shaping the hard copy? I imagine that many carers are not necessarily Future of Care Together, suggested strongly that this internet literate. That brings me to my next point service would be paid for in part out of disability about how this very welcome policy is to be publicised. living allowance and attendance allowance. I say My honourable friend in another place, Mr Steve “suggested strongly” as no other funding alternatives Webb, made the point that the carers we are talking were sketched out in the Green Paper. However, yesterday about may not come into contact with the benefit the Secretary of State, , said in another authorities at all. I do not think that we can assume place, at col. 170 of Commons Hansard, that there that all carers can or will access Directgov on the would be “no cash losers”. Therefore, my third question internet. In many ways, healthcare professionals are is: how, then, do the Government plan to fund the likely to be key players in letting carers know about national care service? Subject to the response on that, their entitlements. While on the subject of healthcare I assure the Minister that we will support this instrument. professionals, could the Minister say whether that is a term of art or just a catch-all term? I know that the Baroness Thomas of Winchester: My Lords, I, too, certifier does not have to be a healthcare professional, thank the Minister for explaining the regulations so but I am curious about whether the term is defined for clearly. We on these Benches give them our wholehearted the purposes of this legislation. What about someone welcome. As the Minister said, this arises from the who is a practitioner in the alternative health field, Pensions Act 2007, and establishes new rules for such as an acupuncturist or a homoeopath? class 3 national insurance contribution credits for Going back to how the new scheme will be those bringing up children or caring for others for 20 publicised, perhaps notices could be posted in GP or more hours a week. The regulations will in particular surgeries and advertisements taken out in local greatly improve the state pension records of women, newspapers. MPs could be encouraged to help who tend to get a raw deal from the current system. disseminate information to their constituents. I note For the first time, caring is to be treated on a par with that the Government intend the certification process paid employment for the building up of pension to be as light touch as possible. That is very welcome, entitlement. as long as the publicity about the scheme is not light We on these Benches are particularly pleased that touch, otherwise the take-up will be disappointing. I the Government have taken on board the proposals in also note that there is no time limit for claiming the the new clause tabled by my Liberal Democrat colleagues credits and it may be extended indefinitely at the in the other place on Report on the Pension Bill 2007. discretion of the Secretary of State or HMRC—a The new clause, subsequently withdrawn after the rather surprising fact given the usual strict rules on GC 75 Social Security Regulations 2009[LORDS] Social Security Regulations 2009 GC 76

[BARONESS THOMAS OF WINCHESTER] Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank all noble Lords backdating. Nor is there expected to be a charge paid who have spoken in support of these proposals. I start by the cared-for person to a healthcare professional with my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley and acknowledge or other person for certifying a care certificate, her strong campaign over so many years. I guess that I although that cannot be enforced. All in all, we should apologise that it has taken us so long to get to welcome this regulation most warmly. where we are, but I am delighted that she is pleased. Like both other noble Lords who spoke, she recognises Baroness Pitkeathley: My Lords, it is probably more the huge contribution that carers make to individuals than 20 years since I started to campaign for a lifetime and to our society as a whole. My noble friend also of caring to be treated equally to a lifetime of paid picked up on the point that this is not only about work in relation to the state pension, so I am a very carers’ credits. Introducing only 30 years’ contributions happy person today. I commend the Government’s to get a full basic state pension and dealing with the flexibility in changing legislation to allow carers to be first contribution condition are important components accredited by a professional to show that they are of making sure that more people can access a basic providing the appropriate numbers of hours of care. state pension. I will come on to the point about As the Minister mentioned, he has worked very closely publicity in a moment. with Carers UK and I declare an interest as its vice The noble Lord, Lord Freud, asked what the light- president. Carers UK has argued that restricting this touch approach would entail with this increase and to those caring for those with certain disability benefits the likelihood of fraud. We need to balance the need will mean that some carers miss out, for example those to ensure that only genuine carers are awarded credits caring for someone with a mental health condition against the intention that the burden of proof to be who refuses to claim or somebody caring for several placed on them is minimal. That is so that as many people getting the lower rate DLA. carers as possible are able to benefit through our This is the first time that those caring for 20 hours a low-key approach. We believe that the risk of fraud is week will have a concrete entitlement. This is recognition very low because no cash benefit is attached to the that 20 hours is the threshold beyond which carers’ credit and the prospect of obtaining an increase in employment prospects are damaged. A number of benefit at some point in the future, as opposed to measures will help carers to build up pension entitlement immediately, is unlikely to have much appeal for those and will reduce reliance on means-testing in future, who would otherwise seek to abuse the system. However, including, as we have heard, the introduction of a new I agree with the point made by my noble friend about carer’s credit for those who are caring for 20 hours or looking at the balance of things and at the huge more a week for someone who is severely disabled. contribution that carers make to our society. That should mean that thousands more carers are eligible for a full basic state pension. The reduction in 5.15 pm the number of qualifying years for the full basic state The noble Lord asked about the certifier being pension means that carers with disrupted contribution responsible for notifying any change in circumstances. records can still build up a full entitlement. The removal I think he asserted that that was the position. That is of the first contribution condition means that someone not the case; it is for the carer to inform the authorities who has never worked can still qualify for a full basic of any change in circumstances. The certifier needs to state pension. These are hugely important steps forward be satisfied only that an appropriate level of care was in stopping carers finding themselves in poverty as a needed at the time of certifying. He asked whether direct result of their caring. that will be a sophisticated and time-consuming process. I share the concerns of the noble Baroness about It should not be because by having a light-touch publicising this and perhaps I may link that to the approach and a broad approach to who might certify, questions posed by the noble Lord, Lord Freud, about we are giving opportunities for those who engage fraud. Far from being notorious for defrauding the routinely in helping people. It would automatically be system, carers are notorious for not claiming. That is part of what they know and are engaged in, so they the most important reason why we have to publicise are best able to make those judgments. this. I am very grateful to the Minister for being The noble Lord asked about the costs of the prepared to work with the carers’ organisations on arrangements. The total cost in terms of state pension take-up and the Carers Rights Day. expenditure is estimated to be £50 million to 2020. Lord Freud: I should like to make absolutely clear I thought a schedule outlining the costs was attached that, by definition, a fraudster is probably not a genuine to the Explanatory Memorandum. If it was not, I carer. shall let the noble Lord have a copy. It shows the costs claimed through the qualifying benefit route or the Baroness Pitkeathley: I thank the noble Lord for certification route and how they potentially build up that clarification. I always feel very strongly about over the period to 2050. The noble Lord raised a this, as noble Lords will perhaps permit. The noble broader point, which is outside these regulations, about Lord also made a point about the cost. We always have the shortage of foster carers and he made suggestions. to bear in mind the cost of not supporting carers, not The provisions we are making here to enable foster only during their caring life but after their caring has carers to have better access and to build up better ceased. They contribute £87 billion to the economy. pension rights are positive. The costs of this measure have to be taken in proportion. He also asked about proposals for the new care and I conclude with sincere thanks and congratulations to support reforms, which are referred to in the Green the Minister. Paper. He said that there are no costings for them nor GC 77 Social Security Regulations 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009 GC 78 information about the means by which they might be whatever we can to that effect. The noble Baroness paid for. He will be aware that a range of options were asked specifically about 12-week breaks and how they proposed in the Green Paper and that we are consulting will apply, particularly when somebody has not accessed on them. I think the paper originally promulgated five disability benefits. Would the 12 weeks still apply? The options and dismissed two: costs being entirely paid answer is yes, they would. by individuals and, at the other end of the spectrum, The noble Baroness asked about the definition of a being entirely paid by the taxpayer. There are a range healthcare professional. Is it term of art? I seem to of alternatives in between. That is the fundamental recall that we debated this during the Welfare Reform point. Bill. I do not remember which one. I think the noble It was asked whether DLA and AA will be abolished Baroness and her colleague— to pay for the national care service. In the longer term, there may be a case for bringing some disability benefits Baroness Thomas of Winchester: I think it was and the adult social care system together into a single during the Pensions Act. Perhaps I am wrong. system as a better way of providing support for all older and disabled people. However, we will make Lord McKenzie of Luton: The noble Baroness may changes to disability benefits only if we are certain be right. I have a feeling that we also debated it in that by doing so we can better support disabled people. relation to the Welfare Reform Act 2007. We have no We know that disability benefits are popular because definitive list and it is not a term of art as far as we are they provide a universal entitlement that does not concerned. The regulations refer to health or social depend on where a person lives. They provide a cash care professionals. In practice, the certifier should be a budget that can be spent on the services people want, person who, in their professional capacity or as a and they are often used to support lower-level needs volunteer, is familiar with the circumstances of the that help people stay well for longer. These three individual disabled person and is able to confirm that aspects will all be important components of the new they need the amount of care that is being provided. care and support system and will ensure that if disability Each application will be considered on its merits. benefits for older people are reformed as part of a I hope that definition also helps the noble Lord, Lord national care service, people receiving the affected Freud. benefits at the time of reform will continue to receive Lord Freud: I thank the Minister for giving way. I the same level of cash support under a new and better also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, for care and support system. I think the noble Lord giving way earlier. I apologise for not having thanked referred to the fact that the Secretary of State for her at the appropriate time. I am still learning some of Health gave an explicit assurance in October that we the procedures of the House. The Minister’s argument have ruled out any suggestion that DLA for the under-65s is an extremely powerful one. My concern about fraud will be brought into the new national care service. is that the reward for this is so long term that it gives a The noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, welcomed these new meaning to the expression “long-form fraud”, but provisions, as I knew she would. She was committed the numbers mean that it would be well down the list to them as we debated them during the passage of the of things that people indulge in. I would also be Pensions Bill. She asked how we can ensure that carers grateful for the schedule, which was not in my copy know about these credits. We have been working in but must be available somewhere. I would be grateful partnership with Carers UK. Carers Rights Day, which for that and the costs. Given what the Minister has I referred to, encouraged carers to claim all the financial said, I am entirely content and strongly support the help and support to which they are entitled. A second statutory instrument, as I said before. burst of media activity is planned from February to raise awareness of the availability of the new carer’s Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am very grateful to the credit from April. Our communications people will noble Lord for that intervention and his support and, target broadcasters, such as “The One Show”, and indeed, for the support of all noble Lords. I think I news outlets and will work with them on packages. have dealt with each of the points that have been They will also work with the personal finance pages of raised, and seek support for the regulations. the national and regional press to give practical advice Motion agreed. to carers on how to apply for the new credit. Consumer magazines such as Good Housekeeping Environmental Permitting (England and and My Weekly, together with specialist carer magazines, will also be targeted. Information and guidance for Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) carers will be available on the internet. The idea of Regulations 2009 information being available in GPs’ surgeries is very Considered in Grand Committee helpful and something that we will look to take forward. I hope we can encourage Members of Parliament to 5.24 pm have information available in their surgeries. Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham The noble Baroness asked specifically whether there That the Grand Committee do report to the will be hard copies of the guidance. I think Carers UK House that it has considered the Environmental and similar organisations would be likely to be able to Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) provide these. At the moment we have no specific Regulations 2009. plans routinely to circulate hard copies, but we want Relevant Document: 24th Report, Session 2008–09, this to be taken up as widely as possible and will do from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. GC 79 Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009[LORDS] Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009 GC 80

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Importantly, the decision on where to draw that boundary Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has been carried out using a systematic assessment (Lord Davies of Oldham): My Lords, the Committee against a number of environmental principles and will be aware that those carrying out waste recovery or other criteria, an approach that was very widely supported disposal operations must have either an environmental by those responding to the consultation. These principles permit or must register an exemption from the need and criteria are to be enshrined in government guidance for a permit. The UK is one of the few member states so that they can be used in future reviews. We are to use the discretion that provides permitting exemptions currently consulting on the guidance to accompany as a lighter touch form of regulation for those operations the revised exemptions. I assure the Committee that that pose a lower risk of harm to people or the this guidance will be completed and in place before the environment. It might be thought, as we discuss these changes to the legislation come into force next April, if issues in Committee, that we have made something of these regulations are approved. a rod for our own back, because where the line is to be drawn is the subject of this debate. But in the general 5.30 pm pursuit of lighter regulation, we are sure that the fact Operators of the new simple exemptions will be that the UK pursues this broad policy is entirely right. able to register one or more exemptions in relation to The problem is that exemptions have developed in a as many sites as they operate at no cost—with just one somewhat ad hoc manner over the years. When problems exception—and with a minimum of information needing have been identified, previous attempts to tighten up to be submitted. the controls have led to the development of several Eighty-eight per cent of the existing 145,000 sites complex notifiable exemptions with registration that are registered as exempt will remain exempt. requirements not dissimilar to those in place for applying Others that are currently paying for and subject to for a permit. Experience has shown that many exempt assessment under a notifiable exemption will benefit waste operations actually pose a much higher risk straightaway from the free, simple exemption. The than some permitted operations—for instance, number of exempt sites will be added to by potentially commercial-scale composting and large metal recycling thousands of additional sites for which there is currently operations. The problem is that at the moment the no exemption provided in law but where the agency regulator, namely the Environment Agency, is able has not required them to apply for a permit; in other neither to carry out sufficient assessment of the proposals words, the low-risk positions. before the exempt operation starts nor to undertake Nine per cent of current exempt sites will no longer appropriate levels of monitoring and inspection based need to register as they are not considered to be on the environmental risk posed and the level of carrying on waste recovery or disposal operations. compliance being achieved. Conversely, there are no That leaves the 3 per cent of sites that pose the highest exemptions at all for many small-scale low-risk operations risk or have been subject to abuse and therefore merit involving certain reuse or recycling operations for a closer scrutiny. Those will need a permit. Most of broad range of wastes from the recycling of coat them are already subject to notifiable exemption controls hangers to the use of lion faeces to make cat repellents, and may be subject to relatively minor changes to the in which the wider danger is by definition somewhat measures they have to take to mitigate any risk of restricted. harm or pollution. These include the larger metal Other exempt waste operations have been subject to recycling sites, large-scale land remediation and abuse, with landscaping developments the size of small landscaping developments, and spreading waste on landfill sites operating under an exemption for the use land for agricultural benefit. The exception is composting, of waste in construction with no limit on the quantities where commercial-scale composting will be subject to deposited. The other place debated this poor state of greater requirements to mitigate the risk that it poses. affairs last year and the Government undertook to do I emphasise the benefits for the majority of operators. something about it. These imbalances rightly led to In last week’s Commons debate, mistaken allegations calls for a review of the boundary between those were made about the impact on the 3 per cent of operations that ought to be permitted and those that operations that will require a permit, particularly in should be exempt. The exemptions review carried out respect of planning permission, as well as the extent of jointly by Defra, the Welsh Assembly Government changes being made to the environmental permitting and the Environment Agency over the last three years regime. I hope that the Government’s reply to that has involved significant dialogue with a wide range of debate will have been sufficient to allay concerns. businesses and others and has included not one but I know that the other place proceeded to a vote on the two public consultations, which have led to the proposals issue. before us today. It is imperative that we provide the many new and The regulations will change the boundary. After amended exemptions that will encourage businesses to consideration of all the responses to the consultations, carry out recycling and recovery and reduce the burdens the Government concluded that the most effective on them, as well as bring an end to abuses and and cost-efficient means of ensuring that the waste inadequate controls. Not to do so, or to remove framework directive’s requirements are implemented exemptions altogether, would be wrong and undermine in a proportionate, risk-based way to meet our better our drive to encourage recovery and recycling to deliver regulation and simplification agenda is to provide new the objectives of the waste strategy. It would have a and amended exemptions for smaller-scale low-risk financial impact on many smaller organisations in a waste operations, while restricting or removing the wide range of sectors that rely on the exemptions to extent of exemptions for higher-risk operations. store, dismantle or treat a wide range of recyclable GC 81 Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009 GC 82 wastes. The proposals are a key simplification measure. It is confusing reading. I am not entirely sure whether They have been through thorough impact assessment “these” refers to the regulations before us or to the and scrutiny by the Merits Committee and are an 2007 regulations. example of better regulation that is proportionate and I note on page 4 the exclusion of mushroom compost targeted. That is why we have made these significant from the list of excluded activities, which the Minister revisions of the previous regime. mentioned. Why have the Government done that? That is the basis of and philosophy behind the What is the reasoning behind it and have the Government proposals. I commend the regulations to the Committee. considered the implication for mushroom producers I beg to move. of this change? On page 5, there is a mention in paragraph 12(2)(k) Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I thank the of the “appropriate authority” under the regulations. Minister for introducing these regulations. I must declare Who is the appropriate authority? There is no definition an interest as a farmer and grower whose business may of what an appropriate authority is. Is it the Secretary be affected by the regulations in one way or another, of State, the Welsh Government, the Environment even though there are exemptions for agriculture. Agency or some other such body? There also appears I listened with care to the presentation of the to be some confusion on this page between the regulations background to these regulations. In general, we understand of 2007 and 2009. When the regulations are consolidated, the reason for their introduction. We have some sympathy it would be useful if it were made clear to which with the strategy and welcome the exemptions. However, previous regulations the text refers. I have a large number of detailed comments and I turn now to page 6. What is the significance of questions, and I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I and meaning of the inverted commas before the words rather exceptionally give the pedantic side of my nature “Schedule 2”? They are not closed off anywhere and it a stroll this evening. Much of the forensic work on this seems a rather strange compositional idea to have has been done by my researcher, but I received letters included them in the text. Paragraph 1 refers to the from the British Metals Recycling Association and the waste mobile plant, which, Community Composting Network. I noticed the Minister “has the meaning given in regulation 8(4)”. made special mention of these two elements. Their Where is regulation 8(4)? It certainly does not exist involvement and concern is interesting as it indicates readily for me to be able to point it out within these that although what they do is currently seen as virtuous, regulations. and is encouraged by the Government, they are anxious about the impact of the regulations. The metal recyclers There is also a question about the whole business of are concerned that these regulations will reduce capacity the relevant authority. What sanctions apply in the and increase costs and burdens for no public or case of invalid registrations? Who will carry forward environmental benefit. The CCN is rightly concerned the failure to register an exception? Apparently, it is about the impact on community food waste composting the local authority in whose area the operation is first schemes. These prize-winning schemes are now obliged carried out. Can that always be proved or demonstrated? to pay for the most expensive permits. I shall not go It must be quite difficult to police and local authorities into the detail of their letters because, from the way in may have difficulty in operations that spread over which he introduced the regulations, the Minister is local authorities. aware of this subject area. I hope it may be possible to At the bottom of page 7, the regulations state: revisit them in the interests of allowing the small-scale “The information in this sub-paragraph is the name and operations of the Community Composting Network business contact details of an individual officer or employee to continue without unnecessary burdens. designated by the establishment or undertaking to be the primary contact for the purposes of registration”, The regulations come into force on 6 April 2010, which is some time ahead. Are the Government expecting which is obviously trying to pin the registration to a difficulties? Are there any hidden nasties that they are particular individual. I am sure that the Minister will likely to have to deal with? The document is complex understand why that is there, but it will lead to an and amends a number of previous permitting regulations. awful lot of bureaucracy if individuals change and the It is difficult to follow. There is no contents page or responsible person changes within an organisation. separation of the major chapters. Page 6 contains the Would it not be better to make it possible for people to place for the signatures to the regulations and the start be designated not only by name but by function within of Schedule 2. Page 12 has a main heading, “Schedule an organisation? 2”, and the start of Schedule 3. Page 51 has the end of Turning to page 8, new paragraph 7(2) states: Schedule 3 and the start of Schedule 3A. The presentation “Any other registration is valid until the end of validity of the is not easy on the eye. The Government talk about first registration made in relation to the establishment or light-touch regulation, but this is heavy-going regulation. undertaking”. I shall go through the regulations page by page. On Are registrations time-limited? What is the meaning of page 2, Regulation 2 amends Regulations 3 to 12 of the “end of validity”? I have read and reread that and the 2007 regulations. That is an interesting observation. cannot work out where that phrase fits in and to what On page 4, do the final two lines under the table mean it refers. that Schedule 3 to the regulations currently in place will be succeeded by these regulations on 6 April 2010? 5.45 pm Midway down the page, there is a line: “‘previous Schedule 3’ means Schedule 3 to these Regulations as The, it had effect on 5th April 2010.”.”. “Register of exempt waste operations”, GC 83 Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009[LORDS] Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009 GC 84

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] to the waste. If the lagoon or pit is on the farmer’s on page 9, is something that we support. We believe property or behind a fence or wall, the public cannot that it is necessary within the framework of regulation be said to have access in any legal sense. Will that be such as this to have exemptions, but: sufficient? Here it does not say “legal access”; it refers “The exemption registration authority must ensure the register”, only to access to the waste. That could be held to be a contains the relevant particulars, very different thing. Who is going to pay for the closing of these storage areas? “within 5 working days of the date that it receives”, from an establishment an undertaking to be registered At the bottom of page 14 and the top of page 15, or renew a registration. There are not many activities there is a very untidy bit of printing. There is a line at within the local authority that are time-limited to five the bottom of page 14 and an open space at the top of working days. Why is this particular thing so important page 15; the composition of it is not particularly good. that such an exceptional timetable should be imposed? On page 15, Table 1, code 020103, why is plant tissue I am all in favour of efficiency, but the administration waste and dredging spoil included in a table that is of this may put a lot of local authorities under considerable otherwise devoted to inert material? There are several pressure. A lot of work is involved in registering these references, other than those mentioned in 170505, but exemptions. I have been unable to find 170505 in any other table in the regulations. Does it exist? Perhaps the Minister On page 10, there is reference to the matters affecting will tell us what it refers to. national security, which it is right and proper should be a consideration. Under Regulation 11(4) for the On page 16, paragraph U2, code 160103, why is first time and, subsequently, under paragraph (6), there a limit of 50 tonnes on the amount of baled tyres there is a reference to a person. Who is this person? Is when the top of page 19 refers to 40 tonnes of tyres it any person or a significant person? Is it a person of when they are in a retaining wall? Page 19 refers to authority; in which case, what authority? Could it be having 40 tonnes of end-of-life tyres. That seems a bit the person next door? This rather strange phraseology inconsistent; I cannot understand why 50 tonnes is is lacking in precision as to the nature of the person. considered to be okay in one place and 40 tonnes is the How many of these exemptions have been thought quantity in another. That rather suggests to me that likely to occur? If the Environment Agency has to deal some of these figures have been plucked out of the air, with more than 300,000 septic tanks—the Minister rather than reasoned. and I debated the whole business of registration of I turn to the burning of waste, such as timber, in septic tanks—we know that there will be many more paragraph U4 at the top of page 17. There is a plant in as a result of these regulations. It is a major bureaucratic Troon; I understand that Scotland is not part and task, particularly if it is to be done properly and parcel of these regulations, but I know of a yard that efficiently. accepts all the cut timber from Arran, takes of the Paragraph (12) requires people to record, in the bark and trims the side branches and then planes or case of an exempt waste operation, logs the trunks and has heaps of different kinds of processed wood in a huge yard, protected by a chain-link “the quantity, nature, origin and, where relevant, the destination fence with double gates and a lock. The flood bank and treatment method of all waste disposed of or recovered in the course of that operation”. between it and the sea is higher than the piles of wood probably 50 yards away and used by the populace to If this is supposed to apply to farm waste, what is this? walk their dogs and push their prams. Would that Is it cart loads or weight? Surely, the Minister does not situation be considered secure? If not, are the Government really anticipate that farmers will have to go to a calling for small-scale operations to be run on tighter weighbridge to weigh the muck before they put it on or higher standards than commercial ones? It says that the field or the packing house waste before they replace waste should be stored in a secure place, but how will it. I cannot imagine that that is the case. Unless record that be defined? keeping is done for a particular purpose, it can often become abused. It either has to be done properly or I note, too, that 0.4 megawatts is the standard for not at all. It is hard to see how this regulation can be which exemptions will apply, but why has that figure done with any precision, in which case it might be been chosen? Why is it not 1 megawatt or 0.25 megawatts? better not to bother to try to do it. It will be only a small-scale operation if it can use only a maximum of 50 kilograms an hour, as it says in Under Regulation 13, records will have to be inspected. paragraph U4(3)(a) on page 17. It states: Page 18 refers to reseeding waste water treatment “Every exemption registration authority must carry out appropriate plants. Under paragraph U6(3)(b), the specific condition periodic inspections of establishments and undertakings carrying on exempt waste operations in respect of which it is the … is that, authority”. “the waste was not produced at the plant”. That could be a very large number of establishments. Does it have to be moved and fresh brought in? Why is Where are the personnel coming from? Are there not it that the waste produced at the plant cannot be used already enough inspections on farms, for example? for reseeding? I turn to page 12 to discover another pair of inverted I have mentioned the whole question of tyres, on commas before Schedule 3. I mentioned inverted commas page 19. I notice the enormous differential between before in connection with Schedule 2. Then I came to stones and bricks capable of being used in their existing page 14, which refers to waste lagoons. Why would the state only—in other words, heaps of building materials— public want access to a lagoon, slurry pit or down? It which are limited to 100 tonnes in a pile, and blast says that the public should not be able to obtain access furnace slag and stones only, for which the figure is GC 85 Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009 GC 86

50,000 tonnes. Surely these materials are essentially your Lordships a true story.Many, many years ago—about very similar, yet the variation in the amount of material 30 years ago—a very good friend of mine, Mr Roger that is allowed to be stored in one place is considerable. Hayes, left school and went to work as a horticultural We saw the quantity of mushroom compost allowed trainee for a London council. One afternoon in the earlier, and here we have 1,000 tonnes of mushroom summer he was working away, doing his job in the compost able to be stored. I wonder how all these potting shed, when there was an almighty bang outside figures are tied up and who has gone through and the window. He looked out to see flames shooting audited them to make sure that there is a certain 30 feet into the air. He dialled 999 and asked for the rationale behind them all. fire brigade. It was all going very well until the lady from the emergency services asked him what exactly Perhaps the gem in these regulations is on page 20, was on fire. He had to confess that some months already referred to by the Minister, about lion faeces. earlier, the circus had come to town and had gifted to The Minister has handled many things for this the local authority three tonnes of exotic animal dung. Government. I should think that this is the first time It had rested there in the yard at the park and, over that he has found himself having to handle lion faeces time, the methane within it had accumulated to the and argue why it should be limited to five tonnes, point at which it spontaneously combusted and was whereas sheep, rabbit or deer faeces can be limited to about to set off another major fire. I think I know how 100 tonnes. Where is the logic in this? Does the lion the noble Lord is going to answer about why lion limit relate to the ferocity of the beast when compared faeces gets a mention in these regulations. That is a with the rabbit? How were these figures calculated and true story. why did the Government see them as different? Are there any other animals? These are just four animals I am delighted to be speaking on these regulations out of the animal kingdom that happened to find for a couple of reasons, which will become evident in themselves distinguished by being mentioned in these my very short speech. These are the latest in a series of regulations. environmental permitting regulations from 2007 and I had a lot more that I could say, but I do not really 2009. They are all due to be included in consolidating want to carry on going through this in detail. I hope regulations, and the environment planning regulations that I have made the point that there are inconsistencies 2010 will come into force on 6 April 2010. In fact, in the Statutory Instrument that need to be addressed. these regulations will not come into force until that These are real concerns to the many enterprises working date, and they will exist in law for only a very short in this area who may well find themselves on the time before they are consolidated into the new regulations. wrong side of these regulations. I hope that the Minister The Government have failed, despite a great deal of will be able to satisfy us that his department will be consultation, to reach consensus in two areas that looking at them before they produce the consolidated concern us. We are not clear why the Government are regulations, which I understand will be early in the insisting on pressing ahead with these regulations four new year. I wonder what will be added, amended or months before they come into force, rather than using deleted, and how easy it is going to be for noble Lords the time to make more efforts to find consensus with looking at them again to understand them. I hope that the operators. The two areas of dispute, as the noble the presentation of the new Statutory Instrument will Lord, Lord Taylor, said are metal recycling and be a good deal more straightforward than the current one. composting. I hope that I have adequately drawn the Grand It is obvious that both those areas can and must Committee’s attention to what I see as the arbitrariness make a major contribution to the objective of a zero-waste in these regulations. My main question is whether the economy, as part of the overall strategy of carbon waste directive requires the maintenance of a register reduction, recycling and waste reduction. It is worth of those carrying out exempted waste recovery or noting that it is 30 years since the Liberal Party, of disposal operations, because that is a heavy duty that which I was a member, adopted a policy of zero waste. is being imposed on people who are by definition It is very nice to see other parties slowly catching up exempted. I have very serious doubts about the ability with us. of local authorities and the Environment Agency to It is equally obvious that inappropriate systems of maintain a register in accordance with the terms laid metal recycling and composting have the capacity to down without having to spend a lot of money, which cause real nuisance to residents. No one wants a we know is not there. I have even greater doubts that scrapyard next to their home, and in the case of metals these regulations actually serve the public interest, but we all know about the problems of theft and illegal I have no doubt that they will greatly increase the trading—for instance, stolen fencing and gully grates. regulatory burden on the vital recycling industry. We agree that there is a real need to stamp out illegal operators. The proposal for an enhanced public register 6pm of exempt businesses will help with this, but more and Baroness Barker: My Lords, I thank the Minister better co-ordinated resources by the police and very much for his introduction of this instrument, and enforcement agencies is also needed. What estimate I commend the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, on his has been made of the capacity of local authorities to comprehensive analysis of it. It falls to me at very enforce these regulations? short notice to speak from these Benches, because my The danger with the regulations as they stand is noble friend Lord Addington has had to attend to that they might result in unintended consequences duties in the Chamber. However, I am delighted to do of less metal being recycled, and they may even so, because it enables me to do something that I never tempt some small businesses on the margins to use the dreamt I would be able to do, which is to share with illegal sector. GC 87 Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009[LORDS] Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009 GC 88

[BARONESS BARKER] Lord Davies of Oldham: I hear what the noble Lord Composting is a tremendously important subject. I, has just said. I understand the seriousness with which too, have received the briefing from the Community he approaches these issues, as do we all, but I hope Composting Network. Community composting schemes, that I am in a position to give such reassurances about where they exist, provide a means of removing and the regulations as to make his rather nuclear using vegetable waste in areas where composting would approach to them seem unnecessary. I hope that he otherwise be impossible or unlikely—in the kinds of will feel that we have made enough progress, given our urban areas where there are very few gardens, for consultation in preparing the regulations. We all example. Noble Lords will know that there is a specific recognise that what is involved here is a shift of a campaign in London at the moment targeted at enabling boundary. As with any boundary, there will always be people who have very small gardens, or indeed sometimes concern that, just across one side, the case is almost just have balconies, to grow more of their own vegetables. the same as on the other—that is in the nature of the Having a resource such as a community composting issue. I wanted to emphasise in introducing the scheme is very important. I listened very carefully to regulations that we are concerned both with the Minister’s opening speech and I noticed that he rationalising the present position so as to exempt that talked about commercial-scale composting. I suggest which can be exempted and with environmental that there is a difference between commercial-scale objectives, which I think are subscribed to in all parts composting and commercial composting. There are a of the House. number of community organisations that encourage composting on a very large scale. They do not do so for I want to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, commercial benefit; they do so for other good. The on commercial composting by small community groups. Community Composting Network is one such organisation. A cost may be involved in applying for the permit, but They are concerned that compliance with a threshold community groups also have a responsibility for the of 10 tonnes of waste at any one time will cause environment—an issue which I know the noble Baroness problems for their schemes. They have made the argument holds dear. We need controls to ensure that the for a 50-tonne limit. It would be interesting to hear environment is protected, because there have been from the Minister what was the clear evidence-based instances where the operations of community groups justification for the Government proposing a limit of have produced problems in the local environment; 10 tonnes. What efforts have the Government made to hence the necessity for us to bring them within the draw a distinction between commercial-scale composting framework. I understand entirely the distinction that by commercial operators and composting by not for-profit she made between a commercial operation and a small organisations? community group being involved in an activity which has a commercial dimension to it but is on nothing It is estimated that the cost of registration, as like the same scale. However, there are obligations proposed by these regulations and others, would mean with regard to the environment in that process, which that local community schemes would have to find is what the regulations seek to address. between £7,500 and £15,000. That is a considerable sum for small community organisations. Even the I am torn between two responses in this speech. proposed permit of £1,590 in the first year could be The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, demanded of me prohibitive and prevent people setting up schemes that that I make a defence of the principle of the we know have an environmental and social value. regulations, the importance that we attach to them I end by making a plea to the Minister to consider and the extent to which we have carried out the whether, given the four months that remain, it might necessary consultation, yet I heard from his noble be possible to engage in further discussion about these friend what he rightly called a precise “dissection” of regulations and to see if it is possible to come to a where explanation is necessary; that is, on almost consensus that would enable schemes which, for all every page of the regulations. So it is a fairly tough sorts of other reasons, not least their health benefits, call, but I shall do my best. we all wish to encourage. I shall give the general proposition, which the noble Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I have listened to this, Lord, Lord Taylor, both hinted at and disregarded not being part of the Bill team. I have been part of the when he outlined a number of his anxieties about the environment team in the past. We are in Grand Committee regulations. The regulations amend those of 2007. The and bound by its rules. This is a classic example of provisions will be incorporated into the regulations of legislation that should never have come into Grand 2000. The mystical inverted commas are there to indicate Committee. It should have been taken on the Floor of that they will be included within existing regulations. I the House in a much more open way. We cannot divide assure the noble Lord that, when the consolidated in here and we would have to cause a significant version of the 2000 regulations is available, nearly all upheaval if we wished to have a Division on this his anxieties about text and ease of understanding will legislation now.Having listened to the wonderful dissection be allayed. I have the greatest sympathy with him and of this legislation by my noble friend and supported in commend him on his research—if anyone else helped many ways by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, from as well, I hope that he will commend them on behalf the Liberal Democrats, I have to ask the Minister to be of the Committee for their diligent work. The textual gracious enough to take this away and do a lot of complexity reflects the fact that these regulations amending work with it and give us another opportunity to go other regulations must be put within that context. through it before it comes to the Floor of the House to That is why some of the difficulties occur, including be passed, otherwise I believe he will risk losing a our dear friends the inverted commas, which are a Division in the House when it comes back. metaphor for the problem as a whole. GC 89 Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009 GC 90

6.15 pm I have several other references in great detail here, but they all fall within the broad framework that these I take the obvious point that the noble Lord made regulations must be placed within the context of the about being unsure what the appropriate authority 2007 regulations that they are amending. They are was and how it was defined in the regulations. However, nothing more than that and are no more sinister in the appropriate authority is defined in the 2007 regulations, their drafting. If the noble Lord is saying that he into which these provisions fit. Of course, as he would cannot accept this type of drafting for regulations, expect, the appropriate authority is the Secretary of that would put quite a burden on the Government. If State, or Welsh Ministers in the context of the Welsh we had to provide with every regulation the finished provision. That problem obtains right the way through product of the regulation that we were amending—if these issues. I shall address his substantive points in a that is what is being considered—the person moving moment. However, he identified the fact that these the regulation would have to separate the whole time regulations are far from being a clear read and that the difference between that which is already law and one can identify references which are difficult to analyse. established and that which is being changed. No I repeat that these are amendments to the 2007 regulations Government have done that before. It is an interesting and are incorporated within them. That is why the concept but not one that I favour. I have enough appropriate authority is not repeated in these regulations problems dealing with regulations on this basis let because that is incorporated in the ones which clearly alone the more onerous one. identify that authority. I hope he will accept that I am not in a position to dot every “i” and cross every “t” in relation to how these regulations read. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The Minister knows, of course, that a consolidated statutory instrument will The noble Lord asked a number of important and come out of this. That is the whole purpose of the substantive points, one of which concerned mushroom exercise. It would greatly reassure us if we knew that compost and why it was not included under the exemption that consolidated statutory instrument could be debated operations. Composting operations will be required to on the Floor of the House. If that were possible, all be regulated by local authorities through a Part B these matters would be much clearer and noble Lords permit, as is the case now for off-farm commercial would have proper control over the finished documents, composting. We deem that mushroom composting whereas the Minister has admitted that it is quite needs to be brought under greater control because of difficult for noble Lords to fully understand the the problems it causes for the environment. We have implications of everything that is here. had complaints about this form of waste and we are responding to them. The noble Lord may say that he Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, that is a good has never been upset by mushroom compost in his life. try. It is difficult to understand, but as I just indicated I bow to his experience, which, I have no doubt, is the only alternative is enormous. Already, at the stroke greater than mine. However, I draw deep on my 16 year-old of a pen and as the result of one phrase, the noble daughter’s experience of spending a week on a mushroom Lord would double the amount of work relating to farm. She said to Dad, “never again”. She made the this particular regulation if every regulation or order point that mushrooms were good to eat but were not that comes before the Committee which amends orders necessarily the most congenial thing with which to be from the past needs to be considered in those terms. I involved every hour of one’s working day. As the noble am afraid that no Government would think that that Lord will appreciate, the problem with compost is that was the way to go about amending. I sympathise with it can lead to persistent complaints from local people. the difficulty and I enormously applaud the rigorous That is why we need regulation. way in which he sought to overcome those difficulties and identify the real issues as well as the drafting ones. The noble Lord referred to validity of registration But if he will forgive me, I will ask him to accept the in Regulation 7(2). That gives effect to the three-year drafting and I will try to deal with the real issues. registration period for all operations carried on by operators. That is a general basic rule with regard to The noble Lord mentioned the thresholds for anaerobic the operation of the regime. The noble Lord said that digestion. The limit was developed in conjunction Regulation 10 concerned national security. Any with the National Farmers’ Union and the biogas person can apply for a direction. There is no industry and is deemed to be an appropriate threshold particular requirement about who can apply for that. for small-scale on-farm biodigestion. That is an agreed That provision is consistent with all other legislation. position with the interests concerned. He asked about the responsible person on page 7 of I was asked why plant tissue waste is included in the the regulations. I understand his point entirely; inert waste section. The waste type issue will be subject you name someone and that person leaves the to review and, if deemed necessary, we will amend that organisation the following day and the business has to at the earliest opportunity. The noble Lord has a point inform the authority who the relevant person should there. We may need to reconsider that. On the issue of be. The reference to the name of the person is merely plant codes, the references on codes are set out in the an administrative concept to provide a contact for list of waste regulations. Again, I agree with the noble queries. It is not part of the information that will Lord. The problem is one of cross-referencing. That is appear in the public register, but it is important. It the difficulty. There is nothing more sinister to it than might not be a person. It might be an officer or that. whatever it is defined, but the noble Lord will The noble Lord asked about the difference between recognise that it merely identifies to whom the the two concepts of tyres, the different forms of storage authority should make the appropriate approach. and why they had different limits attached. The tonnage GC 91 Environmental Permitting Regs. 2009[LORDS] National Assembly for Wales GC 92

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] operators to regularise their planning status within the allowed depends on the use to which the bales will be current laws, which they must do not only for their put. They are stored in different ways and are intended own benefit but to ensure that local authorities reflect to be used in different ways. That is why, in certain the need for metal recycling sites in their waste plans. circumstances, one has to have limits of 50 tonnes and So that is the advantage of the obligation—the information 40 tonnes in the regulations. that local authorities collect. We also support this The noble Lord asked a general question about professional industry, and its competence to operate quantities, and the noble Baroness identified a particular its sites can be demonstrated in a way that is appropriate dimension on which, as she rightly indicated, I do not for it. have much experience. For the most part, the quantities have been arrived at following assessment of the risk 6.30 pm and discussion with businesses that carry out the Reference has also been made to composting. We activity. We have exemptions from European law, and have significantly reduced the size, scale and scope of are much more flexible than it might have directed. the composting exemption. Unfortunately, many One of the advantages of the way we have gone about composting sites merit much greater assessment and this is the flexibility, but we have to stipulate maximum inspection than is provided under the current exemption. quantities under that law, and that is why these figures This will rightly lead to commercial-scale operations are there. There is bound to be a certain arbitrariness having to provide some of the same infrastructure and about that and it is, of course, bound to be a matter of pollution-control measures that other waste treatments judgment. are required to meet and reduce the high level of On access and security, all page 14 does is set out a concern surrounding some operations. It will be definition of what is secure for the purposes of interpreting appreciated that a balance has to be struck between storage conditions. On waste not produced at the the interests of those who are seeking to increase plant, which is covered on page 18, to which the noble composting—we all see the value of that—and the Lord drew attention, I emphasise that this exemption fact that there are dangers in local environments from is to enable water treatment plants to reseed the treatment composting that is not regulated, which is why we have process. To do that effectively, they need to bring put things in a framework. waste in from other plants. The exemption has been This has been an intensive debate. I am not sure developed with the full input of the waste water industry. that I was fully equipped to deal with quite the degree We have had extended discussions on that. I hope the of precision with which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, noble Lord will accept that point. addressed the regulations, and I congratulate him on the intensity of his scrutiny, but I hope I have done The waste directive will require the registration to enough to allay his concerns—and, even more, to allay be updated. It will be updated as operators reregister the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran. every three years. The noble Lord will recognise that I commend the regulations to the Committee. three years is in the regulations. I hope I have answered the questions that the Motion agreed. Committee raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, and the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, raised broader issues. National Assembly for Wales (Legislative I need to put them into context. The risk-based approach Competence) (Welsh Language) that we are taking and the environmental principles we have used to determine that operations should or Order 2009 should not be exempt now and in the future have Considered in Grand Committee received overwhelming support. I have indicated how narrowly focused these changes are. We believe that 6.32 pm the changes to waste exemptions will benefit the industry Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham and regulators and will encourage genuinely low-risk waste recycling and recovery operations. Those who That the Grand Committee do report to the will benefit include a wide range of businesses, particularly House that it has considered the National Assembly the smaller enterprises to which the noble Baroness for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) referred. Our estimate is that these measures will lead Order 2009. to savings of around £255 million over 10 years, which Relevant Document: First Report from the Joint is not a negligible amount. The overwhelming majority Committee on Statutory Instruments. of those that are currently exempt from the need for a permit will continue to be exempt, and many others, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, including some of the sectors mentioned today, will Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs benefit from a new, low-risk exemption that will be (Lord Davies of Oldham): My Lords, this order has free to register. already been approved by the National Assembly for The noble Baroness raised metal recycling. We are Wales. aware of the metal recycling industry’s concerns that I begin by putting on the record this Government’s the revised exemption will be onerous for those who strong commitment to the Welsh language. It plays an will no longer benefit from it and will need a permit. I essential role in Welsh society, and is of course the am aware of the great contribution made by the metals language of choice for many people in Wales. This sector and support it wholeheartedly. We have given a LCO is therefore of unique importance, and I am commitment to take measures to encourage legitimate pleased to see a number of noble Lords eager to GC 93 National Assembly for Wales[9 DECEMBER 2009] National Assembly for Wales GC 94 participate in this debate, which follows the scrutiny It excludes, as noble Lords will know, the use of Welsh undertaken in the other place by the Welsh Affairs in the courts and prohibits the National Assembly Committee, by this House’s Constitution Committee from imposing duties in relation to the Welsh language and by a committee of the National Assembly for on any body other than those falling within the Wales. I commend all those committees and those who 10 categories listed. Those categories include: public worked on them for their scrutiny, which has helped to authorities; bodies established for specific purposes by build a broad consensus of support for this LCO. royal charter; bodies which receive public money The Government’s approach is informed by four amounting to £400,000 or more in any financial year, principles: first, that the National Assembly for Wales and organisations—including private ones—that provide is the natural home to legislate in relation to the key public services including electricity, gas, water, language. It is logical and appropriate for the nation’s telecoms, post, bus and rail services. As I indicated, legislature to be able to pass laws on the Welsh language. some of those are private, some are public and one or two almost escape definition, but I shall not get into Secondly, the order builds on existing statute in that now. relation to the language and in particular on the Welsh Language Act 1993, with which I know a number of The order includes a crucial safeguard enabling noble Lords here today are more than a little familiar. bodies in those categories to challenge the imposition The Act provided a firm basis for the language to of Welsh language duties on grounds of reasonableness develop, ensuring that organisations providing services and proportionality. This is a robust safeguard against of a public nature implemented schemes to carry out any inappropriate imposition of such duties. It ensures some or all of their business in Welsh. These provisions that the reasonableness of duties will be a key consideration now need updating to better fit with current times, but in developing Assembly measures, and provides an the order retains the focus of the 1993 Act on key important reassurance against disproportionate obligations public services provided by public authorities or by being imposed on any body,especially smaller organisations, private companies. whether they are charities or companies in business sectors such as mobile telephony or energy. The third principle, which I believe is crucially important, is that we strike the right balance in going I believe that this order puts in place a framework forward between the interests of those whose first for the of powers over the Welsh language language is Welsh, and who wish to conduct their to the Assembly which is robust and which provides daily lives in that language, and the large majority of for a strong and healthy future for the language, people in Wales who do not speak Welsh. That figure, building on the achievements since 1993 in a common- as all Members of this Committee will know, is 80 per sense, evolutionary way to make the language a source cent—a significant number whose interests also need of pride for everyone in Wales, whether or not they to be considered. actually speak Welsh. It provides a firm foundation on which the Assembly Government can build in developing The final principle is that any duties should be their proposals for an Assembly measure to take forward applied reasonably and proportionately. The Welsh the language. I hope noble Lords will appreciate the Affairs Committee in the other place agreed this principle safeguards which are there regarding the proposal and in its excellent scrutiny report. The principle is particularly that this, almost above all, ought to be a matter for the important in the context of securing the support of Welsh Assembly rather than the UK Parliament to business and enterprise in Wales for these proposals. decide, and accordingly I beg to move. No one would want to see the private sector discouraged from investing in Wales because of burdensome Welsh language duties being inappropriately imposed on business. Lord Glentoran: I thank the noble Lord for having What is right in respect of a large public authority presented this statutory instrument as well and as need not necessarily be right for a smaller private clearly as he has. The Welsh language is a very emotional sector company and, recognising the levels of business, as is the Irish language. I come from Ireland, unemployment in Wales, we all know that the Welsh as most people here will probably know, and I love the economy needs to encourage as many of those small Irish language—in the same way as I am sure all Welsh businesses as it can in those circumstances. What is people love the Welsh language. Long may they both more, what is right in Meirionnydd may not be right live. That is my personal and, I think, my party’s for Gwent, so we have to take those issues into account. stance. This order is based on clear principles and a common- I urge some caution, because this issue has difficulties, sense approach to developing the language. Its drafting pitfalls and costs. I also suggest that, as far as possible, reflects the real concerns of some about its scope, but we look at it in a voluntary way. It is absolutely right at the same time meets the pressures for change. I believe that the Assembly has the power to do what it will that the order strikes the right balance between the with the language. As the Minister said, there can be complex and sometimes competing interests which the no other place to run and manage the Welsh language Welsh language engages. It has ensured a broad consensus than the Welsh Assembly. That has to be central to all on how best to proceed and works in the best interests our thinking. of everyone in Wales. The Conservative Party has a proud record on the The order would allow the National Assembly to Welsh language. The Welsh Language Act, piloted legislate to promote or facilitate the use of the Welsh through Parliament by my noble friend Lord Roberts language, and allow the treatment of the Welsh and of Conwy, has done much to generate good will for English languages on the basis of equality. That is the language, with the consequence that increasing based on wording from the Welsh Language Act 1993. numbers are using it today. GC 95 National Assembly for Wales[LORDS] National Assembly for Wales GC 96

[LORD GLENTORAN] deter such individuals from setting up in business in The 1993 Act has always encouraged participation Welsh villages. It is all very well having an appeals on a voluntary basis. It is applicable to public bodies process, but it is unlikely that prospective purchasers but other organisations have adopted their own Welsh of sub-post offices would wish to go through such a language schemes. process and the very existence of an appeals process Although we should not second-guess what the might amount to a deterrent. Assembly Government will do with the competence To summarise, the Welsh Assembly Government transferred to them, it is clear from the list of bodies should think carefully as to whether, and when, they that could potentially be subject to the legislation should impose new duties in respect of compliance that they intend to extend compliance with Welsh with Welsh language provisions. The current legislation language schemes to bodies other than public has approval and public support. It has made the bodies. These include gas, water and electricity Welsh language a vibrant part of Welsh national life. suppliers, telecommunications companies, bus and railway The Assembly Government should think carefully before companies and post offices. It would be a concern if, doing anything at all which would damage the good by imposing duties on such a wide list of bodies, the will that the language currently enjoys and which Assembly Government were to do anything to damage might ultimately prove counterproductive. the good will that has developed towards the Welsh language since 1993. 6.45 pm The draft LCO also provides that no duties may be Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, this is one of imposed on any person under any legislation that the most extensively considered orders ever to come might be brought forward by the Assembly Government before your Lordships, as we can see from the excellent under the provisions of the LCO unless there is a Explanatory Memorandum. It has been subjected to means to challenge those duties on grounds of pre-legislative scrutiny in the National Assembly and reasonableness and proportionality. That is all very in the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Select well, but it appears that the LCO contemplates the Committee and it has been debated in the Welsh setting up of a significantly large bureaucracy to administer Grand Committee. It has had a very full breakfast of the Welsh language legislation. consultation and there is probably more to come as One must also have regard to the current adverse Assembly measures based on the order take shape. economic climate. Complying with a Welsh language All that is entirely appropriate, given that the order scheme will undoubtedly cost a lot of money. will transfer more powers relating to the Welsh Consequently, the Welsh Assembly Government should language—our most precious possession—from this be very careful about imposing duties on bodies not Parliament to the National Assembly. As a humble currently subject to compliance with Welsh language promoter of the last Welsh Language Act to pass legislation if to do so would potentially prejudice the through this Parliament—the Act of 1993—I am glad viability of an otherwise successful organisation. This that the principles of that historic Act, which has is where clear and positive thinking has to be divided served Wales and the language well for the past 15 years, from emotion, desire and passion. are to be preserved. The LCO also provides that duties may be imposed We sometimes forget, under the baleful shadow of on persons providing services to the public who receive the so-called Tudor Acts of Union which discouraged public money amounting to £400,000 or more in a the use of Welsh, just how much this Parliament has financial year. It is unclear how the figure of £400,000 contributed positively to the preservation and promotion has been arrived at. The figure of £200,000 in the of the language. It was an Act of 1563, promoted by original draft order appears to have been plucked out Humphrey Llwyd of Denbighshire in the Commons of the air, and the new figure is clearly simply that and Richard Davies, Bishop of St Davids, in the previous figure doubled. I am afraid that the Minister House of Lords that secured William Salesbury’s is having a busy time with numbers this afternoon but translation of the New Testament and Davies’s own perhaps he can advise us how that figure has been translation of the Book of Common Prayer for use in arrived at. Welsh churches by 1567. We had to wait a few more The legislative competence extends also to imposing years until 1588 for a complete translation of the duties to comply with Welsh language schemes on Bible, by William Morgan, but it stemmed from the persons engaged in central banking. Given that there same inspirational source. Richard Davies came from is only one central bank in this country—namely, the the Conwy valley, as did William Salesbury and William Bank of England—it is hard to see why competence Morgan. All were patronised by the Wynn family of should be sought in respect of that body. Perhaps the Gwydir—no relation to me. Minister could explain the reason for including the Of course, a number of other important Acts of Bank of England within the ambit of the order. Parliament have ensured the language’s rightful place There is also a significant concern with regard to in court proceedings, for example, and I am glad to see post offices. Most post offices in Wales are run by sole them noted in the Explanatory Memorandum. proprietors or, frequently, husband and wife teams. The Welsh language is part of British as well as They are frequently not Welsh-speaking; indeed, Welsh heritage and has been highly valued as such. In traditionally, running a sub-post office has been regarded spite of all the consideration that has been given to as a semi-retirement job for people from across the this order, there are still some potentially controversial border. It would be unfortunate if the imposition of issues, as my noble friend Lord Glentoran said, and compliance with a Welsh language scheme were to some could become sore points. But I remind myself GC 97 National Assembly for Wales[9 DECEMBER 2009] National Assembly for Wales GC 98 that this is a permissive order and that the Welsh translation, which has become an ever more substantial Assembly still has to decide precisely how to legislate industry since the passage of the 1993 Act. Translation and whom the legislation will affect within the parameters can be costly. Many are asking whether this represents laid down here. the best use of resources and justifies the increased I understand that the Minister most closely concerned price of publication. The National Assembly itself has at Assembly level, Alun Ffred Jones, is to hold meetings recently been agitated over the issue in connection in different parts of Wales to test people’s feelings and with its official Record of Proceedings. There is no to elicit their views and wishes. I shall content myself easy answer, but it is an issue that we must be aware of, with uttering a few caveats, because language is a especially when we include bus and train timetables, highly sensitive issue and it is easier to offend and gas, water and electricity bills and Post Office matters antagonise people than it is to please them. Without that may be subject to Assembly measures. I am sure popular good will and support, progress is impossible. that the Assembly will consider that. So far, we have been able to nurture and grow that I reiterate that the language is a sensitive and potentially support in Wales and to benefit from it. controversial issue. So, too, is legislation in this field. The 1993 Act was voted against at Third Reading in Mention is made in the memorandum of a desire to the other place by none other than Plaid Cymru; the describe Welsh as an “official” language. The matter Labour Party abstained. Now, 15 years later, I think was debated in your Lordships’ House and the other that both parties would agree that the Act has done a place in 1993 and occasioned Divisions both here and great deal of good, raised the profile of the language in the Commons. The Government defeated the and improved its status. There is enthusiasm for it, amendment by a majority of 39 here and 44 in the too. other place because no one knew what the implications of such a statutory declaration might be. English is The language lobby has traditionally been critical not declared to be an official language anywhere in of central government, whichever major party was in our law, I am told. I would advise those who may be power. Now its target will be the Welsh Assembly considering reopening that debate to read the Government in Cardiff, as responsibility for the language parliamentary proceedings in both Houses and to has passed to them. However demanding that lobby is, re-examine the arguments for themselves before they I hope that the Welsh Assembly Government will step into that minefield. never forget that you cannot force a language on people and that any progress made in the extension of I am glad that the order is very specific as to the its use must be because people really want it and persons who may be affected by having duties laid on regard it as a highly desirable asset for themselves and them and that there is a right of appeal, with tests of their children. reasonableness and proportionality being relevant. We have to thank the Welsh Affairs Committee for those improvements. The last thing we want in this context 7pm is a clutter of objections to requests for language Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, it is very important schemes and the whole paraphernalia and bureaucracy that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, spoke of a seemingly endless appeals procedure that is too early in the debate because clearly his detailed knowledge much in demand and may result in enforcement. The of the Welsh Language Act 1993 and—I think I am mechanisms of appeal and enforcement have still to be right in saying, his 13-year tenure as a Minister in the established. Personally, I believe that enforcement is Welsh Office before devolution— counterproductive and that the language stands to lose more than it has to gain if enforcement becomes the order of the day. Popular support for the language Lord Roberts of Conwy: Fifteen and a half years. may be seriously eroded and, if that were to happen, it might be difficult to restore the spirit of good will that the language has enjoyed. Lord Livsey of Talgarth: Correction. Fifteen and a half years is a tremendous service to Wales. Clearly, The proposed language commissioner will inevitably the noble Lord has outlined a great number of details feature in this sphere, but we know little about his from his own knowledge and his acute observations office and functions as yet. I hope that the commissioner on this legislative competence order. The order comes will have a constructive role and that people’s worst via the Government of Wales Act 2006, which gave fears will not be realised. The cost of new measures is the Assembly the power to create legal measures, another factor that will need to be taken into account, which in this case promote the use of the Welsh especially in the wake of the recession and the cutbacks language throughout Wales. in spending that will inevitably follow the Government’s We are considering this LCO and what will occur pledge to halve the deficit. I understand that the Welsh later with measures concerning the language. I especially Language Board has a staff of 70 at present. Are welcome it, even though, as we have heard, the process increases anticipated? The more persons included in has taken far too long. The order is now on its passage the list, the more civil servants will be needed to through this House and has been scrutinised in supervise them and the greater the direct costs to those considerable detail, not least by the Welsh Affairs having duties imposed on them, their clients and Committee in the other place. The Explanatory customers. The costs will eventually be loaded on to Memorandum states that: the public. “The primary purpose of the Draft LCO … is to provide the I have one final point to make, which concerns National Assembly for Wales with legislative competence in relation translations. Almost all the schemes and duties involve to the Welsh language”. GC 99 National Assembly for Wales[LORDS] National Assembly for Wales GC 100

[LORD LIVSEY OF TALGARTH] Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, like all other I have written beside that: “Big deal!”. In Wales, we noble Lords, I welcome the draft order. I wholeheartedly will be able to legislate much more on the language. To agreed with the Minister when he said that if ever be fair, however, it also says that it will concern the there was a devolvable responsibility—that is not how existing functions of Welsh Ministers and the Welsh he put it, but that was the thrust of it—that should be Language Board, which, as we know, started in 1993. transferred as generously as possible to Cardiff, this is it. The world has moved on a lot since 1993, particularly in the educational sector. Many more young people in Indeed, I doubt whether there can be any challenge Wales now speak Welsh. All my grandparents spoke to that fundamental reality. There are 20 headings in Welsh but, as my family was in proximity to Merthyr Schedule 5 to the 2006 Act. Many of those, you might Tydfil, much of that language skill was lost for two say, are almost exclusively Welsh, but in all those cases, generations. I can speak some Welsh, and I can understand there will be some cross-border effects, some knock-on practically all of it, but I am very pleased to say that effects that will not be totally confined to the land and all three of my children speak Welsh fluently. That nation of Wales. This is the exception. This is the 20th pattern has been repeated across Wales, particularly and this is exclusively a Welsh matter. with the advent of ysgolion meithrin, which enable young children to learn the language at a very early I want to disabuse anybody who subscribes to the age in preschool, which is when they absorb it like idea that commitment to the Welsh language is in blotting paper. some way a sentimental or emotional matter. It may very well engender sentiment and emotion, but I would The Welsh Not in the 19th century was a terrible say that it is much more than that: it is a matter of thing, but the language survived. It has survived because truth and principle. The way that I would put the case of the activities of many people. In the 1980s, the would be this: I would say that every language is 1970s, and even the late 1960s, there was the Cymdeithas unique and priceless and part of the patrimony of yr Iaith Gymraeg, the Welsh Language Society. It was humankind. That strange scholar, Dr Johnson, said very unpopular in some places. However, it undoubtedly that he was always saddened to hear of the death of brought the language to the fore. any living language. When one thinks of it, every language in the world is a work of genius. Its nuances The good, detailed work done on the LCO in the reflect the hopes, aspirations, fears, attitudes, mores National Assembly and here in Parliament by members and standards of those people who have spoken it and of the Welsh Grand Committee and the Welsh Affairs espoused it. It is as much a work of human genius as Committee in the House of Commons, especially its the best that has ever come from the hand of the artist, chairman, Dr Hywel Francis, has made this LCO the sculptor or the architect. much more readable and understandable. The process has been long, but it is now much more objective. It is in that light, I respectfully say, that one has to look at the responsibility of humankind in general for In summary, we owe a great debt to those who have the Welsh language, as it has for every other language, gone before us—those of all parties in Wales and and for the people of Britain in general, let alone the those of none. Wales is always at its best when it unites people of Wales. The generality of status is at the basis across party divides. As for my own Liberal party, just of our attitude to the language. The Welsh language is consider what Lloyd George did to disestablish the one of the oldest spoken languages in Europe. It has church. I think also of my more recent colleagues, existed for about 1,500 years, and has a history that Lord Geraint and my noble friend Lord Hooson, not goes back, some say, to an origin as far back as the to mention the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies—who, Himalayas. It is of Indo-European origin. It is a living happily, is here today. He has done tremendous work language, spoken by 500,000 people. As the Minister on this. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has rightly said, that is only one-fifth of the ; also taken a great interest. There are others whom we 80 per cent of them—2.5 million—do not speak it. In must not forget. The late Gwynfor Evans was a Plaid my case, it was a pure accident of birth and geography Cymru leader and a Welsh language campaigner who that I speak Welsh, as is indeed the case with one or was prepared to go on hunger strike for a Welsh two other Members of the Committee. I only hope language television channel—a channel which has that I would have had the courage and assiduity to ultimately made a huge difference to people in Wales learn it otherwise, but it was a fortuitous accident. It is who can now access the language. I was recently still my main language when I am at home. It is the talking to someone on the borders of Scotland, the language in which I live practically the whole of my secretary of a rugby club, and the only way he could life when I am at home in Cardiganshire. see his local region play rugby was to watch S4C. Many English speakers who are fond of their national Nothing gives me a greater thrill than to hear game can also access the Welsh language by this people who are not Welsh-speaking, but who are means. It has been a great uniting thing. members of the Welsh nation, refer to the Welsh language as “our language”. That is the attitude that This instrument is passing through both Houses in will gives the Welsh language a possibility of remaining a week when Wales’s First Minister, Rhodri Morgan, a a vibrant, living thing in British life. The language has great supporter of the Welsh language, is retiring. I enjoyed a renaissance over the past 20 to 30 years, but thank him, too, for all the work that he has done to its life is far from safe. The pressures on it are very promote the cause of Wales and, especially, the Welsh considerable and only our best efforts will safeguard language. it. So if one lays down any conditions that stultify that GC 101 National Assembly for Wales[9 DECEMBER 2009] National Assembly for Wales GC 102 possibility, one is doing the language a great disservice. the nursery schools. Their contribution has been invaluable. There is a school of thought that says, “Well, you can The status of the language has been strengthened make all the pious declarations you like in relation to immensely since the passing of the Welsh Courts Act the Welsh language. Youcan weep oceans of sentimental 1942 and, subsequently, the , tears, but you shall not spend a penny of public money which was presented by the late Lord Cledwyn. Then, and you shall not place a single imposition on anyone. of course, came the important Welsh Language Act You shall not impose any burden that makes life even 1993, which was the creation of the noble Lord, Lord marginally more difficult for businessmen”. Saying Roberts of Conwy. that effectively writes “finis” to the life of the Welsh When I look at the Welsh language scene in the language. I am not suggesting that such a case has round, three things stand out. First, more and more been deployed in the Committee today, but it is essential precise Welsh speakers in Wales are now demanding to remember that if we want a priceless treasure of the right to live a full life through the medium of humankind to remain, we have to pay for it. One Welsh. This is fairly new. Indeed, I can recall how I appreciates how difficult it is to preach a sermon like avoided using the term “right” for many years because this in the strained financial circumstances that exist I thought it would be difficult to attain a consensus on at the moment, but it is right to remember the central that basis. However, I have come round to the view reality of the situation. that there is a growing consensus in Wales that we On the content of this legislative competence order, ought to be constructing a framework of facts. Secondly, I appreciate that it is very much the product of a the Welsh language domains in north Wales and west compromise, but so many things in politics and in life Wales, which have been one of the most valuable are. For myself, I would probably have wished for a assets of the Welsh language, but not the only one, are somewhat more adventurous approach than this, but shrinking rapidly, with adverse consequences which we have to achieve the fine balance referred to by the we may not be able to assess fully. Thirdly, while the Minister and the noble Lords, Lord Glentoran and Welsh-medium schools—in south-east Wales in Lord Roberts. It is very much a matter of balance. particular— are over-subscribed, with huge support However, if on the one hand there is stodgy, unimaginative from parents who are non-speakers but wish their passivity, you will achieve nothing. You might as well children to have access to their linguistic heritage, it is say right now that we will let the Welsh language go. an immensely difficult task to ensure that Welsh is a On the other hand, an overly aggressive and adventurous living language beyond the school yard. It is a daunting approach may create a wholly counter-productive task which confronts us. situation. I am deeply appreciative of the time and resources No Act of Parliament or piece of delegated legislation given by the members of the Welsh Affairs Select can of itself save a language. All that statutory provision Committee to the examination of the draft order. can do is create the conditions that make it possible However, I must confess that I am confronted by a for a language to thrive better than it would have done dilemma. I wonder whether the order has been over- had one not resorted to the provision. It is on that scrutinised. On the other hand, I am bound to accept basis that this matter takes the situation forward a that its drafting has been improved as a result. In that little from the 1993 Act, which I regard as a very difficulty, I content myself by saying that there is a important milestone in the journey of the Welsh language special art to translating the language of politics into through life. I appreciate that it gives quite substantial the language of Government and legislation, and it powers to the Assembly, which I am sure it will use cannot be acquired overnight. The Welsh Assembly sparingly and reasonably, bearing in mind all the time Government may wish to look at some of the that goodwill will be the oxygen of life for Welsh in the difficulties—perhaps in their departments, perhaps in years to come. their legislative procedures—and if there are such The one matter I would contend with is this. difficulties, consider how to improve them. Nothing that we are doing today creates any legislation at all. If this order passes through the I turn briefly to my two main caveats about the House of Lords without challenge, as I hope it will, order. I regret—this will come as no surprise to the all we will have done is peg out an area. It is for the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy—that the phrase Welsh Assembly to build a legislative edifice upon it. “official status” is not included in the document. I am If the Assembly has no plans to start on that edifice aware that it has been claimed since the passing of the soon, then this exercise will have been useless. 1993 Act that the principle of equality of the two However, I am sure that that is not the case and that languages embodied in that Act confers the status of the Assembly has plans that one trusts will be brought official language on the Welsh language. If that is the to fruition in the near future. case, why not enact the principle in a declaratory statement? I am pretty confident that this issue will not go away, but I am concerned that more of our 7.15 pm young people may sacrifice their careers in order to achieve that objective. Lord Prys-Davies: My Lords, I support this important draft order which has been requested by the Welsh My second caveat arises out of the appearance of Assembly, the highest political authority in Wales. the word “freedom” rather than “rights” in Matter However, I have one or two caveats—to which I will 20.2. “Freedom” is a novel word in Welsh language come—but I begin by paying tribute to the signal legislation. It is not defined in the interpretation clause. contribution of the teachers in the Welsh-medium Moreover, I understand from our human rights lawyer schools, in particular, and the voluntary teachers in that the word is threadbare of meaning in the context GC 103 National Assembly for Wales[LORDS] National Assembly for Wales GC 104

[LORD PRYS-DAVIES] 7.30 pm of this legislation. Interestingly, what the Welsh Assembly First, what was in the Wales-wide consultations? Government Minister for Heritage said in evidence to What was the stance of the Wales CBI? Is there, the Welsh Affairs Committee on 27 April suggested according to the CBI, a consequence for the small and very strongly to me that he was not particularly medium enterprises where the order is concerned? enthusiastic about the terminology—references may It looks to be positive in paragraph 7.15 of be found in Questions 294 and 332 of the oral evidence. the Explanatory Memorandum. Secondly, as a What is required is a carefully drawn framework of consequence, will there be a further impact on our rights for the users of the Welsh language, rather than universities? I should declare my interest as a the vague concept of, university chancellor. “freedom of persons wishing to use the Welsh language”. Paragraph 7.1 is more than interesting. It states: Notwithstanding the caveats that I and others have, “The Welsh language is one of the defining characteristics of this is an important order, which will facilitate the the UK’s cultural heritage and an essential component of the continued regeneration of the language upon the path everyday lives of”, which began in 1942. 580,000 Welsh speakers in Wales. That is very bold and very truthful. Paragraph 7.2 is equally interesting. It refers to ensuring, Lord Jones: My Lords, in 1974 the special adviser “that the language can continue to be a prominent and vibrant to the Secretary of State for Wales, the noble and part of people’s everyday lives”. learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, was the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies. It might be said that Surely, it must be that. These are powerful statements. his service to the Welsh language has been a life’s On reading paragraph 7.10, I conclude that in later work. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, rehearsed the years more legislation will be required. I wish to be difficulties, pitfalls and costs of the order. I acknowledge brief, but I say again that I wish the order well. the distinguished role in the governance of Wales of the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy. He was right Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to to emphasise the great consequences of Bishop Morgan’s all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate, although Bible. Certainly in the 16th and 17th centuries there there is a somewhat obvious diversity of contribution were no referendums and no prolonged consultations. between the eloquence we would expect from those The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, said that the Welsh Not whose natural language is Welsh but who were speaking was a terrible thing, and he has an insight into our in English and some more prosaic questions to which I social and cultural history when he says that. I thank have to address myself. I pay tribute to not just the the Minister for his masterly opening. He trod carefully emotion but the love of language, and of the Welsh and had his brief at his side. language, that has been expressed in this Committee. Here is history in the formal and simple words of We all appreciate those who have spoken with such the order: “Constitutional Law”, “Devolution”, “Wales” passion. Of course, my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies and “2009”. Those words are in the context of the has done so much with regard to the language since he speeches that have been made before my own humble has been at Westminster. We very much appreciate words. With regard to context, as a humble Minister in that he is able to make his contribution today. the Wilson and Callaghan Administrations from 1974 I shall address myself in a moment to the caveats, to 1979, I had responsibility for the Welsh language in but, first, I pay tribute to the work that has been done what was the original Welsh Office formed by Prime and to others. In that context, the progenitor of the Minister Harold Wilson. When it was established in 1993 Act is here. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, has 1964, the Welsh Office was led by the first Secretary of seen the development of the legislation which he State, the bilingual James Griffiths, who in the Attlee introduced and then piloted through, and we pay Government initiated the National Insurance Act. My tribute to that. reaction is to say that from little acorns do great As to the prosaic questions, the noble Lord, Lord oaks grow. Glentoran, will never let me get away with just For a Minister 35 years ago, it was a difficult brief. rhetoric. So I shall address myself to his question. Let The Government of the day, with no or very little me emphasise that I do not think that costly majority, were harassed politically by Welsh nationalists bureaucracy will be set up by the Assembly of Wales, and others, and the language and road signs were to which we devolved this issue. As was rightly said by often in the front line of political skirmish and battle. the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, this is an Astonishingly, today in the 21st century the Welsh enabling measure. It is for the Assembly to decide Assembly Government are a coalition of Labour and what must be developed in law. I assure the nationalists. I think that they are because today there Committee that it is for the Assembly to address itself is to be a new leader of the Welsh Assembly Government to any attendant costs of the legislation that it puts and, one anticipates, a new Government, perhaps with forward, but I do not anticipate huge costs. It is different personnel. already making plans and, if this measure goes My summary is that one can only wish the order through, knows what it wants to do. It knows that it well and acknowledge that it is historic—the story of wants the establishment of a commissioner and an the language of our nation in modern times. Perhaps enforcement regime to accompany any imposition of the Minister will write to me with a considered reply if duties, but these do not need to be costly. There has to he cannot give detailed responses today to my brief be some enforcement regime, not because we think questions. that the development of the language will depend on GC 105 National Assembly for Wales[9 DECEMBER 2009] National Assembly for Wales GC 106 legal enforcement, but because there is no point at all The noble Lord, Lord Livsey, indicated just how in passing a law that regulates if one cannot enforce fragile language can be through his own family history. its prescriptions. There is an element of cost, but that We all know that if language is not passed down from is a matter for the Assembly to decide. one generation to the next, by definition it atrophies and dies. It might have been the case that at one stage, The other matter on which the noble Lord, Lord in very substantive parts of Wales, there was a great Glentoran, expressed anxiety was the CBI. The CBI danger that the Welsh language was declining into has expressed its enthusiasm and commitment to this insignificance. Perhaps his family history reflects that measure. It clearly identified the obvious issues that decline and the resurgence that is a reflection of the the Assembly should not inhibit business, particularly developments over the past three decades. We should in these circumstances where we want to encourage rejoice in the changes since then to which noble Lords business in Wales. That would be the judgment of the have subsequently paid such testimony. I was grateful Welsh Assembly with regard to the issue. Who better to the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, for putting to make those judgments? All that I can testify to the this order into context and for emphasising even more Committee today is that the Welsh CBI has looked at than I could the fact that it is for the Assembly to the matter and welcomed it, knowing that the Assembly produce the necessary legislation if this enabling order will ensure that the measure will not inhibit the goes through. development of business. As to whether £400,000 was a figure pulled out of The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, made a most the hat, it is a figure that indicates that the organisations eloquent speech about the necessity of ensuring that have to be in receipt of a significant amount of public the language flourishes and develops, given its money to come within the scope of the order. Otherwise, extraordinarily long history. I am not prepared to the great danger would be that we would be making accept that the concept of “official” matters a great regulations for organisations of the most modest kind. deal. English is not an official language; there is not a No, this is an issue for large and significant organisations. law in England that defines English as official. But if Public bodies come within its scope and bodies that Welsh is equal with English, we have achieved the receive £400,000 per annum. In a sense, any figure is status that surely guarantees Welsh always to be a drawn out of a hat, which I think is the phrase used by very significant part of all public utterances and all the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran. It is bound to be, but bodies in Wales subject to the law. The noble Lord it is the question of judgment about the size of the also raised the issue of a right rather than a freedom. organisation that needs to be considered. That is the It may be a little late in the day for me to get too basis of that figure. involved in such philosophical and constitutional matters. The term freedom makes it clear that a person would Post offices are already subject to the Welsh be free to speak the language and should be able language scheme under the 1993 Act, as the noble to do so without interference other than in particular Lord, Lord Roberts, would remind us. If anybody circumstances or specific limitations. A right, however, considered the imposition of duties on them would enable an individual to call on the state or any unreasonable or disproportionate they could certainly other specified body to do something to support his or challenge that, including individual post offices or her right to speak Welsh. When we are talking about a entire organisations. The whole Post Office could do language, surely guaranteeing the freedom is the issue the challenging. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, that we are seeking to achieve rather than seeing rights can rest assured on the particular point that he insisted on. After all, that would introduce an element identified about those who take up their retirement of legalism into the issue, which may not be necessary serving in Welsh post offices. I thought that our with regard to the language. greatest concern was the persistence and survival of Welsh post offices, rather than who ran them. The noble Lord, Lord Jones, asked about the CBI. I However, he can accept reassurance on that. hope that I have answered him on that. He asked whether I would write to him; well, I am not going to On a general point, the Assembly must exercise its write to him—I am going to give him the answers now. judgment on the impact of its legislation on private I have already answered him on the CBI. He asked companies. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked about education and the universities. Education is about the Bank of England, which brought me up clearly in the scope of this legislation; the impact on with a jolt as I had not briefed myself intensively on its the universities depends on the legislative Assembly role in this context. The Bank of England, like the and on the universities. After all, they enjoy considerable Post Office, is subject to the Welsh language scheme freedom in Wales as they do in England. It will be for under the 1993 Act. That is why we have to include it those institutions to reach decisions, but if the Welsh within the framework. I should have thought that the Assembly does not have the interests of Welsh universities noble Lord would regard that as a source of rejoicing— as a high priority, the Assembly would surely be that such an august institution has its role to play with neglectful of education in Wales beyond any conceivable regard to the Welsh language. measure. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, in accurate terms—and who could be more accurate?—described the significance This has been an inspiring debate, as I thought it of the 1993 Act and developments subsequent to that. would be, about an order which is not a modest order There is no doubt that this is an important order but has a wonderful logic to it, derivative from the carrying on the work that the 1993 Act identified. 1993 position, the Act and the work that has gone on GC 107 National Assembly for Wales[LORDS] Health Professions Order 2009 GC 108

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] other employers that are regulated under consumer ever since. Therefore, I am pleased to have been able to protection legislation, such as the Unfair Trading participate in such an inspiring debate and commend Regulations 2008. Employers will also make savings as the order to the Committee. they will no longer have to pay an annual registration fee. The Health Professions Council has significant Motion agreed. economies of scale, with over 200,000 registrants, compared with only 1,700 on the Hearing Aid Council’s register. Health Professions (Hearing Aid The abolition of the Hearing Aid Council will also Dispensers) Order 2009 achieve the Hampton report’s aim of reducing the Considered in Grand Committee overall number of regulators. This will result in a small reduction in public expenditure as we will no longer 7.45 pm need to support the Hearing Aid Council’s running costs. Most importantly, hearing-impaired people will Moved By Baroness Thornton be better protected by a well organised and highly respected regulator with enhanced powers. That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Health Professions At present, the Hearing Aid Council can take action (Hearing Aid Dispensers) Order 2009. against a practitioner only once harm has actually occurred. However, the Health Professions Council Relevant Document: 24th Report, Session 2008-09, will have the power to remove a practitioner from the from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. register before any harm takes place, on the grounds that a person is likely to present a risk to the public. Baroness Thornton: My Lords, the order being debated The Health Professions Council sets standards of today makes provision for the transfer of the register education and training, performance and conduct and of hearing aid dispensers from the Hearing Aid Council is overseen by the Council for Healthcare Regulatory to the Health Professions Council and makes provision Excellence. The Council for Healthcare Regulatory connected with the abolition of the Hearing Aid Council Excellence provides external assurance that the Health after it has completed its affairs. The primary benefit Professions Council is undertaking its duties effectively of this legislation is to enhance public safety and we through its annual performance review process. In its believe that it will bring real benefits to hearing-impaired most recent report, the Council for Healthcare Regulatory people. Excellence described the Health Professions Council I am sure noble Lords will join me in thanking the as a transparent, well organised, efficient and cost-effective Hearing Aid Council for the work it has done in regulator. regulating the private hearing aid profession for over The content of the draft order itself transfers the 40 years, but now is the time for change. The framework register of private hearing aid dispensers held by the legislation that sets out the powers and duties of the Hearing Aid Council to the register held by the Health Hearing Aid Council in respect of the regulation of Professions Council; it creates a new offence relating private hearing aid dispensers is outdated. To deliver to the dispensing of hearing aids by unregistered high-quality services, change is needed and modernisation persons; it makes provision connected with the abolition will prevent gaps in patient safety from occurring. of the Hearing Aid Council and the cessation of its Noble Lords will be very aware that the background functions; and it makes transitional arrangements in to the proposed transfer of functions stems from the respect of uncleared Hearing Aid Council casework at Hampton report in 2005 on regulatory inspections the point of transfer. and enforcement. This report called for the merger of The Health Professions Council will, for the first the Hearing Aid Council into a new body. After time, protect function as well as title. The title “hearing considering the Hampton report’s recommendations, aid dispenser” will be protected, as is currently the the Government reached the view that, in fact, the case, but in future, any person not registered with the Health Professions Council was best placed to regulate Health Professions Council who performs the functions private hearing aid dispensers. of a hearing aid dispenser will also commit an offence. The Health Professions Council, established in 2001, The protected functions will be assessing or testing an has a modern legislative framework. It already successfully individual’s hearing, or prescribing a hearing aid for regulates 14 other health professions. It has more an individual, with a view to supplying a hearing aid comprehensive powers and duties than the Hearing for retail, sale or hire to, or for the use of, that Aid Council, which will enhance protection to patients individual. and the public. The proposed transfer of the register of private The transfer of the register of private hearing aid hearing aid dispensers from the Hearing Aid Council dispensers to the Health Professions Council will deliver to the Health Professions Council will take effect on 1 real benefits for everyone concerned. Private hearing April 2010. All private hearing aid dispensers on the aid dispensers will benefit from a considerable reduction Hearing Aid Council’s register on that date will in their annual registration fee, from £695 to £76. automatically transfer to the register held by the Health Employers of private hearing aid dispensers will no Professions Council. Both the Hearing Aid Council longer need to register, as they currently do with the and the Health Professions Council fully support this Hearing Aid Council. This will reduce the regulatory transfer and are working closely together already to burden on businesses and bring them into line with ensure a smooth transition. The Health Professions GC 109 Health Professions Order 2009[9 DECEMBER 2009] Health Professions Order 2009 GC 110

Council has worked with the Hearing Aid Council to Finally, I join the Minister in paying tribute to the develop standards of proficiency that the dispensers Hearing Aid Council for its diligent and conscientious will be required to meet after the transfer. work over the years. The Department of Health has undertaken a full public consultation exercise on the draft order as Baroness Barker: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble required by the Health Act 1999. There were 32 Baroness for introducing the order to the Committee respondents to the consultation and the responses in such a clear and comprehensive way. Like the noble were, in general, overwhelmingly supportive of the Earl, Lord Howe, I do not intend to trouble your proposal. In particular, 97 per cent of respondents—noble Lordships for long. That said, I have indicated on Lords can work out how many that is—supported the previous occasions that I have a personal interest in proposal to transfer the functions of the Hearing Aid this subject, being the child of someone who has been Council to another body and supported the Health reliant on National Health Service hearing aids for Professions Council as being the most appropriate approximately 70 years. Consequently, it has long been regulator. my concern that people who are losing their hearing have sometimes gone to the private sector in desperation. During the debate on this order in another place There has always been concern about the level of there was widespread consensus that the policy of the service; by that I do not mean just issuing a prescription Health Professions Council regulating private hearing but the service provided to people in that situation. aid dispensers was entirely appropriate. A question was raised about the position of retailers of hearing There is real pressure in this area. That pressure aids who were not traditionally performing the functions may be unique to the field of hearing aids; it does not of a health professional. This group of people will not apply to, for example, optical services. That pressure be regulated by the Health Professions Council but are arises because much of the innovation occurs in the covered by normal consumer protection regulation. private sector. New technology comes to the private sector long before it comes to the NHS. Therefore, We are grateful for the support given to these there is a commercial interest behind that. I do not for proposals by the councils, the professions and all a moment want Members of your Lordships’ Committee the bodies which have an interest in supporting to think that I consider private dispensers do not have hearing-impaired people, including the voluntary the interests of their clients at heart, as that is not the organisations. These changes bring benefits to case. However, in view of what I have just said, I everyone and, in particular, the measures will provide welcome this measure. I also pay tribute to the Hearing improved protection for the hearing-impaired. I Aid Council for the work that it has done. It is commend the order to the Committee. commendable that a body should work so assiduously towards its own demise; that is very generous of it. It is Earl Howe: My Lords, the Committee will be grateful right that the Hearing Aid Council, which did not to the Minister for introducing the order, which is have fitness to practise powers, should transfer its politically uncontroversial. Indeed, my understanding functions to the Health Professions Council. I noted is—and she has just confirmed this—that it has the what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said about full support of all principal stakeholders, including the challenge that this presents to the Health Professions the main voluntary organisations representing deaf Council. It has previously protected titles, not functions. people. I am not, therefore, going to spend time talking The functions that it will have to regulate in future about it at any length except to welcome its provisions were listed by the noble Baroness: assess, test and in the round and, more especially, the consequences prescribe hearing aids. Does that definition include which will automatically flow from the transfer of screening? Screening for the hearing impairment of regulatory powers from the HAC to the HPC, such as children and adults is carried out in a large number of improved public protection, the introduction of fitness- places and I want to be absolutely sure that those who to-practise procedures and the significantly lower retention carry it out are properly regulated. However, I am not fees for practitioners. The HPC has proved its worth clear whether that falls within this definition. and its quality as a regulator and the transfer we are Like the noble Earl, Lord Howe, I noted that there approving today has been the subject of considerable is an intention that private and public dispensers will thought and consultation. be registered on a single register with a single set of Besides bringing the regulation of hearing aid standards. In my view that day cannot come soon dispensers up to date, the order also opens up over the enough. Everybody who suffers a hearing loss deserves medium term the prospect of regulatory simplification the very best and consistent treatment. When do the in that it should one day be possible to bring both Government envisage that that unification of registration public and private dispensers on to the same professional will happen? I understand from the Hearing Aid Council register, which they are not at the moment. Indeed, I that it is unlikely to happen until 2011, at least, even understand that some NHS audiologists are not regulated though the transfer will occur in 2010. I wish to see at all and that those who are are subject to a mix of that development occur speedily. Like all the bodies statutory and voluntary regulation. That situation and voluntary organisations that have worked on the cannot be anything other than confusing to the general unification, I think this is a very good measure and I public. It would be helpful to have the Minister’s wish it good speed. confirmation that unification of regulation in the sense I have described is, indeed, the Government’s intention. Baroness Pitkeathley: My Lords, I am chair of the I should also be grateful if the Minister would comment Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence, which on how the Government plan in the future to regulate is keen to ensure that public protection issues are hearing aid assistance. properly dealt with. The CHRE seeks an assurance GC 111 Health Professions Order 2009[LORDS] Health Professions Order 2009 GC 112

[BARONESS PITKEATHLEY] this year. We published a White Paper in February from the Government that the HPC will be required to stating the Government’s intention to introduce statutory address, through its appropriate committees, the case regulations for healthcare scientists as a priority, and of any HAC registrant who currently has a sanction that is what we are pushing forward. imposed on them. It is important that the HPC committees The noble Baroness, Lady Barker, asked about have the full range of sanctions available to deal with screening, which was a perfectly sensible question. the case appropriately and are not bound to follow the I think that I touched on that in my opening remarks. HAC’s decisions. This is vital if a new system of The legislation addresses the functions performed by regulation for hearing aid dispensers is to offer improved the registry as assessing hearing, testing and prescribing levels of public protection. I therefore want to put a a hearing aid, so it includes screening. Provided that very specific question to the Minister: can she confirm the screener is not carrying out these functions with a that it is Parliament’s view that when professionals view to the sale, retail or hiring of hearing aids, there transfer from the Hearing Aid Council register to the will be no need for them to register. We would expect Health Professions Council register—or, indeed, in the screening to be carried out in the manner in which any similar situation in the future because I think we it is being done. are talking about a principle here—it expects the HPC On the merging of private hearing aid dispensers, to exercise its judgment in reviewing whether sanctions and NHS-associated practitioners undertaking a hearing imposed by the Hearing Aid Council on an individual aid practitioner role being regulated as one professional are adequate for public protection? I also offer my group, the role is just emerging within the NHS and congratulations to the Minister for her speedy, but requires further development, including ensuring that clear, exposition and to the Hearing Aid Council and it fits within the overall career framework for healthcare the HPC for their work on this. scientists. The new arrangements are being proposed as part of modernising scientific careers, so I do not 8pm expect that the timetable will be any faster than the Baroness Thornton: I thank noble Lords for their one that the noble Baroness mentioned. comments and the fact that there is such a welcome for I can confirm to my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley the order. I have had one of the most comprehensive that Article 6(7) of the hearing aid dispensers order briefs ever—and all excellent stuff. I think that we have will allow the HPC to deal with cases where the HAC been able to find an answer for virtually every question. has imposed a penalty in any way that it considers fit, The noble Earl asked whether there were plans to and indeed, there will be a complete review of cases to regulate any more professions. Indeed, the Health do whatever it considers appropriate. When the functions Care and Associated Professions (Miscellaneous transfer from one regulatory body to another, it makes Amendments and Practitioner Psychologists) Order sense to have a review process on the sanctions imposed 2009 introduced a statutory regulation saying that we by that transfer. The HPC has confirmed that it will would be looking to bring them under the Health review outstanding cases and those with sanctions Professions Council. A number of groups of healthcare internally in the first instance, with the outstanding workers are currently not regulated, and we are considering cases then likely to be reviewed by a panel. It is not the need to regulate them, and when regulation is anticipating problems. It is meeting the HAC to discuss justified, identifying an appropriate model of regulation outstanding cases on a two-weekly basis. We expect in the light of the recommendations of the extending the number of cases to be very small indeed. professional regulation group. That includes hearing I hope that that answers most of the questions. aid assistance. The noble Earl also asked about how I commend the order to the Committee. audiologists could be regulated as a priority. We are Motion agreed. consulting on the proposals for healthcare scientists, and we expect to publish the response at the turn of Committee adjourned at 8.05 pm. WS 161 Written Statements[9 DECEMBER 2009] Written Statements WS 162

the quality of voluntary activities and to recognise the Written Statements value and importance of volunteering. A budget of ¤8 million has been allocated for this initiative. Wednesday 9 December 2009 The council adopted the conclusions on media literacy in the digital environment encouraging the EU: Agriculture and Fisheries Council promotion of media literacy, including through formal Statement and informal education, to maximise the potential of the internet and minimise possible risks. The conclusions were adopted without further discussion. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs There was then a presentation by the Commission (Lord Davies of Oldham): My right honourable friend on the Google books report. The Commission had the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and strong concerns about the revised Google books Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn) has made the following settlement, and argued for the development of an Written Ministerial Statement. EU legal framework on global copyright issues. The Commission encouraged member states to increase My honourable friend the Minister for Marine and the number of EU books being digitised and highlighted the Natural Environment (Huw Irranca-Davies), will that initial findings from the recent consultation on represent the United Kingdom at the Agriculture and Europeana (the European Digital Library) has shown Fisheries Council in Brussels from 14 to16 December. strong support for the initiative. There are a number of items on the agenda relating A policy debate on the digitisation of cultural to agriculture and fisheries which are of significant content in Europe followed the Commission’s presentation. interest to the United Kingdom, including the adoption All member states agreed on the importance of fair of the recent dairy proposals, on which the UK will but user-friendly copyright rules, and the need for EU abstain. Discussions will take place on the following: level co-operation and encouragement. Public/private conservation of fisheries resources through technical partnerships were also supported by the majority of measures; member states, with many citing the usefulness of the EU/Norway annual fisheries consultations for Arrow project. There was no request for further member 2010; state funding for Europeana. 2010 fishing opportunities for fish stocks in the Under any other business, France raised the current Black Sea; financial difficulties faced by cinemas in transferring to digital systems. Slovenia, supported by a number of simplification of the Common Agricultural Policy; member states, requested that books written in minority and languages should be allowed to have a zero tax rate. future of the Common Agricultural Policy: rural The Spanish gave a brief presentation on their forthcoming development. presidency. An informal council meeting would be There are currently two items under any other held on 29 and 30 March, a seminar on copyright business—a statement on Community action reducing and digital libraries in Madrid on 26 and 27 April, a incidental catches of seabirds; and general conclusions European cultural heritage conference on 29 April from the 26th conference of EU paying agencies. and a conference on the mobility of artists on 25 May There is also a Ministerial lunch scheduled to discuss in Madrid. the reform of the Common Fisheries Policy. Finally, Austria asked the Commission to explain their proposed next steps following a letter received from Commissioner Reding on the Council of Europe EU: Education, Youth and Culture Council convention on Transfrontier Television. This concerned Statement the legal implications of signing a convention that related to an area of EU competence. The Commissioner The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, argued that the letter merely reflected the current legal Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs reality. The Commission did not want their future (Lord Davies of Oldham): My honourable friend the right of initiative to be affected by the Council of Minister for Creative Industries (Siôn Simon) has Europe convention, but agreed that we should co-operate made the following Written Ministerial Statement. on the basis of complementarity. They did not rule out the possibility that a prior negotiating mandate A meeting of the Education, Youth and Culture may be necessary. Council was held on 26 and 27 November. I represented the UK for the culture and audiovisual section of the council on 27 November. Fiscal Responsibility Bill The council adopted, without further debate, the Statement conclusions on promoting a creative generation by developing the creativity and innovative capacity of The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury children and young people through cultural expression (Lord Myners): My honourable friend the Economic and access to culture. Secretary to the Treasury has made the following The proposal for the European Year of Voluntary Written Ministerial Statement. Activities promoting Active Citizenship (2011) was The Treasury has today published draft secondary adopted by the council. The year’s aim is to improve legislation in relation to the Fiscal Responsibility Bill the environment for volunteering in the EU, to raise to indicate how the Treasury intends to use one of the WS 163 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 164 powers provided by the Bill. Copies of the document The Government believe that this action is necessary, are available in the Vote Office and have been deposited and that a straightforward extension of the current in the Libraries of the House. anti-forestalling provisions is the simplest, least disruptive and least burdensome way to achieve this. Pre-Budget Report Statement Security Industry Authority: Annual Report The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Statement (Lord Myners): My honourable friend the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah McCarthy-Fry) has The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Office (Lord West of Spithead): My honourable friend Budget 2009 announced that, in order to ensure the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the that the system of pensions tax relief remains fair, Home Office (Alan Campbell) has today made the affordable and sustainable, tax relief on pension following Written Ministerial Statement. contributions would be restricted for those with incomes I am pleased to announce that the annual report of £150,000 and over. This restriction applies to all and accounts of the Security Industry Authority (SIA) contributions, including those from employers. for 2008-09 will be laid before Parliament today and The gap between the announcement and will be published on 11 December 2009. implementation creates a real risk that those affected, Copies of the report will be available in the Vote or who believe they might be affected, would attempt Office. to forestall the new rules by making large contributions now to take advantage of higher rate tax relief that would not be available to them after April 2011. UN: Central Emergency Response Fund To prevent this, at Budget 2009 the Government Statement introduced an anti-forestalling regime. It seeks to enable high-income individuals to continue to receive higher Lord Brett: My right honourable friend the Secretary rate relief on pension contributions that they would of State for International Development (Douglas have made in the absence of the announcement of the Alexander) has made the following Written Ministerial 2011 reform, but not on higher contributions prompted Statement. by that announcement. The UK has provided £40 million per annum for As announced in the 2009 Pre-Budget Report, the the past four years to support the United Nations restriction of relief from April 2011 will apply to (UN) Central Emergency Response Fund (CERF). individuals whose income, including the value of any The CERF provides UN humanitarian agencies with pension benefit funded by (or eventually funded by) early funding so that they can respond immediately an individual’s employer, is £150,000 or over. This will when a crisis strikes. The fund is also able to channel be subject to an income floor so that those with funds to neglected emergencies. pre-tax incomes, excluding the value of any employer To date, over US$1.5 billion has been contributed contributions, of less than £130,000 are unaffected. to the CERF by 109 UN member states and 19 private So, the restriction will apply to about 2 per cent of donors, of which the UK is the largest single contributor. pension savers, who currently receive around a quarter During this time, the CERF has committed $1.4 billion of tax relief on pension contributions. to emergency programmes in 71 countries. CERF has To prevent an estimated £400 million of tax revenues been an important part of the humanitarian response being put at risk before April 2011 by additional in nearly every major crisis in 2009. CERF was the forestalling, the Government have today announced top source of funding for five of the six UN emergency that the anti-forestalling rules will be extended to appeals launched in 2009; namely, Lao Peoples apply to individuals on incomes of £130,000 and over Democratic Republic, Madagascar, Namibia, Burkina (with income being as defined on the same basis as Faso, and the Philippines. The top recipients of in the existing anti-forestalling rules), effective from CERF funds to date have been: DRC ($162 million), 9 December 2009 and for the remainder of this tax Sudan ($102 million), Kenya ($79.4 million) Somalia year and next. This will be legislated in Finance Bill ($71.3 million), Ethiopia ($69.5 million), Afghanistan 2010 and draft clauses will be published shortly. ($60.1 million), Sri Lanka ($56.8 million) and Zimbabwe Those newly brought into the regime will be subject ($52.2 million). to the special annual allowance, which remains unchanged. CERF has performed well over its first four years This means that they will continue to receive higher of operation. An independent evaluation of the fund rate relief up to the level of their normal (defined as in 2008 found that the CERF “has proven itself as a quarterly or more regular) pension contributions; or valuable and impartial tool, becoming in a short time- the lower of £30,000 and average contributions over frame, an essential feature of international humanitarian the past three years if contributions are less regular action and complementing other humanitarian financing than quarterly; or £20,000; whichever is highest. mechanisms”. The evaluation report concluded that Contributions exceeding these limits made prior to the CERF has helped to accelerate humanitarian response new rules taking effect will not be charged. Further and increase the coverage of needs. detail on these provisions is available at www.hmrc.gov.uk. The UK is represented on the CERF Advisory Around 98 per cent of pension savers will not see their Group, which provides the UN’s emergency relief tax relief restricted by these provisions. co-ordinator with advice on the speed and appropriateness WS 165 Written Statements[9 DECEMBER 2009] Written Statements WS 166 of fund allocations, and examines performance and over the next three years (January 2010 to December accountability. We share the view that the CERF has 2012). We will monitor the performance of the CERF made good progress. closely to ensure this investment is used to the best In the light of the CERF’s solid performance to effect. I hope that this long-term commitment will date, and as part of our ongoing efforts to improve the encourage other donors to do likewise, thereby quality of the UK’s response to humanitarian crises, I strengthening the financial sustainability of the CERF. am pleased to inform the House that I have approved We will continue to actively lobby key donors to this a further commitment to the CERF of £120 million end.

WA 123 Written Answers[9 DECEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 124 Written Answers Animal Health Question Wednesday 9 December 2009 Asked by Lord Dykes To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of progress to protect animal health in the United Kingdom. [HL181] Alcohol: Duty The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Questions Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours (Lord Davies of Oldham): The health of animals is central to Defra’s work of protecting livestock and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what processes controlling and eradicating disease. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs use to identify The Animal Welfare Act 2006 makes it an offence alcohol which has not had duty paid on it. [HL511] to cause any unnecessary suffering to an animal, or for To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much an owner or keeper to fail to provide for an animal’s beer was seized by Her Majesty’s Revenue and welfare needs. This includes the need for a suitable Customs in (a) 2006, (b) 2007, (c) 2008 and (d) 2009 environment (place to live); for a suitable diet; to due to excise duty not being paid. [HL512] exhibit normal behaviour patterns; to be housed with, To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much or apart from, other animals (if applicable); and to be wine was seized by Her Majesty’s Revenue and protected from pain, injury, suffering and disease. Customs in (a) 2006, (b) 2007, (c) 2008 and (d) 2009 The Animal Health and Welfare Strategy, published due to excise duty not being paid. [HL513] in 2004, aimed continuously to improve the health and welfare of kept animals while protecting society, the economy, and the environment from the effect of animal disease. The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury The Chief Veterinary Officer (CVO), in his annual (Lord Myners): HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) report on Animal Health for 2008, summarised progress uses a number of processes to identify alcohol that has and developments in UK animal health and welfare. not had duty paid on it. These include: use of risk and Recent successes include: intelligence information; targeted assurance testing of the successful implementation of a voluntary businesses’ systems and procedures; credibility testing bluetongue vaccination campaign in England and of alcohol supply chains; physical checks at revenue Wales, delivered in partnership with the veterinary traders’ premises, including warehouses, wholesalers profession and livestock industries; and retailers; and the use of criminal and civil investigation the effective control of two outbreaks of highly techniques against the highest risk individuals and pathogenic avian influenza in England, due to a businesses. co-ordinated response from Defra, Animal Health, Specifically in relation to spirits, all bottles and the Veterinary Laboratories Agency, the Health other retail containers of a specific size and alcohol Protection Agency, the Environment Agency and content held for retail sale in the UK must bear a duty local authorities; stamp. major progress towards the elimination of BSE in HMRC works in partnership with the United Kingdom cattle; Border Agency (UKBA) to detect illicit alcohol entering continued progress on the control of salmonella in the UK. This includes risk-based targeting and challenging poultry and the launch of an industry-led zoonoses of both commercial freight consignments and individual control programme for pigs; and travellers arriving from other EU member states and good progress in Northern Ireland on the control non-EU countries. of bovine brucellosis and Aujeszky’s disease in pigs. At Budget 2009 the Government announced the Bovine Tuberculosis (bTB) continues to be a challenge. renewal of HMRC’s and UKBA’s tackling alcohol In 2009 the EU approved the UK bTB Eradication fraud strategy. This includes a number of further Plan which reflected the control strategies being pursued measures aimed at helping HMRC identify alcohol in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Defra continues that has not had duty paid on it. These changes are to work on developing a bTB vaccine for both badgers being progressed alongside the wider HMRC powers and cattle in order to provide a new tool to help review which will ensure that HMRC has effective control the spread of the disease from wildlife. powers to protect alcohol revenue duties. A full copy of the CVO’s report can be found on HMRC publishes details of alcohol seizures on a the Defra website. financial year basis in its annual autumn performance report. Figures for 2005-06 to 2008-09 are provided Armed Forces: Aircraft below: Questions Asked by Lord Astor of Hever 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Product (in litres) (in litres) (in litres) (in litres) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with civilian contractors on the provision Beer 2,522,253 1,915,173 4,763,006 5,780,117 of aircraft for use in the airbridge to Afghanistan. Wine 292,945 303,048 1,128,117 1,304,518 [HL320] WA 125 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 126

The Minister for International Defence and Security As is usual a wide range of options are being (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The Ministry of Defence considered in PR10. No final decisions have yet been periodically receives approaches from individuals and taken. As nothing definite has been agreed, it is premature commercial bodies offering services, including the to speculate about specific measures. provision of aircraft for use on the airbridge to Afghanistan. Many of these discussions are informal and provide a method of seeking advice on the bidding process as well as determining levels of interest. The Armed Forces: Armoured Fighting Vehicles department does not routinely record informal discussions. Questions However, since November 2007, six formal proposals have been received and were examined in line with Asked by Earl Attlee departmental guidelines. Recently, defence equipment To ask Her Majesty’s Government how the and support has set up the Defence Suppliers’ Service estimated mean distance between the failure of (a) and issued direction and guidance to all Ministry the power pack, and (b) the engine, fitted to the of Defence directorates on how to handle inquiries of standard FV430 range of armoured fighting vehicles interest and unsolicited bids from commercial compares with those of the same vehicle upgraded suppliers. to Bulldog standard. [HL351] Asked by Lord Astor of Hever To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proposals The Minister for International Defence and Security they have received from civilian contractors for the (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): At the time the Bulldog provision of aircraft for transporting service personnel project was initiated, the mean distance between failure to Afghanistan. [HL321] (MDBF) for the AFV430 MkII power pack was reputed to be in the order of 250 kms. The Bulldog powertrain has steadily improved in reliability since its introduction Baroness Taylor of Bolton: The airbridge to and is now delivering an MDBF of 4850 kms as at Afghanistan is absolutely critical for the success of November 2009. current operations. We use two air transport solutions for the movement of service personnel: direct flights Asked by Earl Attlee from the UK into Afghanistan, using military air To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether in transport aircraft; and commercial chartered flights to recent years the Ministry of Defence has experienced a Middle East hub followed by military flights into difficulties in sourcing spare parts for power packs Afghanistan. in the standard FV430 range of fighting vehicles. Since November 2007, six unsolicited bids for air [HL352] transport direct to Afghanistan have been received from Kellogg Brown and Root Limited, Fortis Aviation Services and Solutions, Omega Air, BAe Systems, Baroness Taylor of Bolton: Yes. Despite whole life Crown Aviation Consulting and Government Affairs buys of spares made in support of the AFV430 MkII (Services) Limited. Each of these proposals was formally drive trains, it was judged that these spares would be examined in line with departmental guidelines. The exhausted by the revised out of service date of 2015. companies were informed that at the time we did not This, combined with the increasing obsolescence of wish to progress further with their offers but that the power pack components was one of the main should the situation change and a requirement emerge, reasons for initiating the Bulldog project, for which the Ministry of Defence would consider a competition the contract was signed in November 2005, and these and, therefore, advertise the need for such services in issues have now been resolved. accordance with departmental guidelines. Asked by Earl Attlee Asked by Lord Astor of Hever To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the they have to reduce the number of Tornado GR4 estimated cost of running for 100 kilometres (a) a aircraft in Royal Air Force service by 2015. [HL322] standard FV430 armoured fighting vehicle, and (b) To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans the same vehicle upgraded to Bulldog standard. they have to reduce the number of Harrier GR9 [HL353] aircraft in Royal Air Force service by 2015. [HL323] Baroness Taylor of Bolton: This information is not Baroness Taylor of Bolton: There are no current available and could be provided only at disproportionate plans to reduce the numbers of either Tornado or cost. Harrier aircraft numbers prior to 2015. However, the Asked by Earl Attlee MoD routinely reviews its forward plans to deliver defence capability to ensure they are sound and that To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the resources are allocated in line with defence priorities. steering, service and parking brakes on a standard Top priority is given to achieving success on operations FV430 armoured fighting vehicle are part of the in Afghanistan and tough decisions will have to be same system; whether that would be legal for a new taken to ensure that this is the case. Planning round 10 civilian vehicle; and, if not, whether that problem (PR10) is currently underway. has been addressed by the Bulldog upgrade. [HL354] WA 127 Written Answers[9 DECEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 128

Baroness Taylor of Bolton: The steering and brakes Baroness Taylor of Bolton: The information regarding on the AFV430 are part of the same system. This the number of British military fatalities in the Republic would not be legal for a new civilian vehicle. The of Ireland during 1919 to 1922 and Iraq during the Bulldog conversion however, meets current legislative British Mandate of Mesopotamia 1920 to 1932 could requirements for armoured fighting vehicles. be provided only at disproportionate cost. Although details about UK service personnel who Armed Forces: Compensation Scheme died during the period 1919 to 31 August 1921, the date of the official cessation of following Question an under the Termination of the Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester Present War (Definition) Act declared the war ended, are held by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they do not indicate where the individual died. The members of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces would in names for those who died after 31 August 1921 and any circumstances have their military careers affected the end of the British Mandate of Mesopotamia in by making a claim under the Armed Forces 1932 are not held centrally and could be provided only compensation scheme or the courts for illnesses or at disproportionate cost. injuries whilst in service. [HL212] Armed Forces: Helicopters The Minister for International Defence and Security Question (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The military careers of Armed Forces personnel who claim under the Armed Asked by Lord Astor of Hever Forces compensation scheme or through the courts To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions should not suffer as a result of that claim. they have had with contractors on the provision of future medium lift helicopters. [HL324]

Armed Forces: Fatalities The Minister for International Defence and Security Questions (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): Over the past few months we have been re-examining our future helicopter plans Asked by Lord Laird and as part of this work we have had discussions with industry. We expect to conclude this work shortly and To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the will make any announcements thereafter. Written Answer by Baroness Taylor of Bolton on 12 November (WA 184–5), whether the 655 deaths in Northern Ireland includes those in the Ulster Constable of the Tower of London Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Rifles; whether Question it includes those who died in accidents or abroad; and why it differs from a 2005 Ministry of Defence Asked by Lord Foulkes of Cumnock figure of 763 service deaths. [HL313] To ask Her Majesty’s Government who is responsible for advising HM The Queen on the The Minister for International Defence and Security appointment of the Constable of the Tower of (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The 655 deaths in Northern London; what remuneration he receives; what official Ireland is sourced by the Northern Ireland Police accommodation is provided; and what is the annual Service and includes any deaths that occurred to either cost of the appointment. [HL223] Ulster Defence Regiment personnel or Royal Irish Rifles personnel. The figure is only for those that died The Minister for International Defence and Security as a result of terrorist action and for those that died in (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The Constable is a ceremonial Northern Ireland. role, an honorary office which receives no remuneration. Accommodation provided by the Historic Royal Palaces The figure of 763 deaths reported to have occurred is designed for occasional use in support of his ceremonial in Northern Ireland is not an official MoD figure. functions, rather than permanent residence. This figure was derived from a list compiled by the Daily Telegraph and published in the book Lost lives: The appointment itself is approved by Her Majesty The story of the men, women and children who died the Queen after recommendation is given by the Prime as a result of the Northern Ireland troubles (Edited by Minister. D McKittrick, S Kelters, B Feeney, C Thornton, published 1999 Trafalgar Square, ISBN: 184018227X). Council Tax Asked by Lord Laird Question Asked by Lord Bates To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Baroness Taylor of Bolton on To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the 12 November (WA184–5), how many British military Valuation Office Agency undertook an internal or fatalities there were in the from external inspection of the property in the London 1919 to 1922; how many there were in Iraq during Borough of Barnet with billing authority reference the British Mandate of Mesopotamia; and whether 45320001500019 when it was revalued for council the names of those killed are held by the Ministry tax in March; whether information derived from of Defence. [HL314] (a) the Land Registry, and (b) Rightmove, has WA 129 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 130

been collected on the house; and which individual Mexico. As part of the the (1) dwelling house coding, and (2) value significant EU has FTAs with , Norway, Switzerland codes, are assigned by the Valuation Office Agency and Iceland. to that dwelling. [HL239] Currently, the EU is negotiating FTAs with: India; Ukraine; Libya; Central America (comprising Costa The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua and Panama); Department for Communities and Local Government & Andean Nations (comprising Colombia and Peru); Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of the Association of South-East Asian Nations (Philippines, Luton): The Valuation Office Agency (VOA) will always Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand, Brunei, endeavour to gather property information from other Vietnam, Laos, Burma and Cambodia); the Euro- sources, such as Rightmove, in order to minimise the Mediterranean countries (, Algeria, Tunisia, inconvenience to taxpayers of having to gather the Egypt, Israel, Jordan, Palestinian Authority, Lebanon, information it needs by visiting a property. Internal Syria and Turkey); Mercosur (Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay inspections of houses are particularly rare as most of and Uruguay); Iran; Iraq and the Gulf Co-operation the information required to ascribe a council tax band Council (Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia can be established externally. The VOA does not use and the United Arab Emirates (UAE)). information from the Land Registry for council tax The EU-Korea FTA was initialled in October 2009 purposes. and is scheduled to be signed in 2010. The specific information requested relates to the Other agreements that include elements of free tax affairs of an individual or organisation and cannot trade agreements include economic partnership, be disclosed by virtue Section 18(1) of the Commissioners association agreements, stabilisation and association for the Revenue and Customs Act 2005. agreements and partnership and co-operation agreements. The European Commission website provides information on all of the European Union’s bilateral EU: Community Development Fund trade relations: http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating- Question opportunities/bilateral-relations/index_en.htm Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they EU: National Veto plan to propose that the European Union should Question establish a fund for voluntary peaceful community development in areas of tension and dispute, and Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch for third party mediation and conflict resolution. [HL401] To ask Her Majesty’s Government which policy areas remain subject to national veto under the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Treaties of Rome, as amended. [HL326] Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): We do not The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth currently have any plans to propose that the European Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): The treaty of Union (EU) should establish a fund for voluntary Lisbon introduces 51 moves to qualified majority voting. peaceful community development in areas of tension Twenty of them will offer faster decision-making where and dispute, or for third party mediation and conflict the UK wants to see better systems in place, for resolution. example: aid to disaster zones; protecting British business We are supporting the Commission’s plans to look ideas; strengthening the EU’s research and innovation at ways to strengthen EU mediation capacity. We are capability; liberalisation of the energy market. Sixteen keen to ensure that the EU intervenes where it can add of these either will not apply to the UK or will apply real value and avoid duplication. The EU is well only if we choose to opt in; for example, in justice and placed to make a significant and positive contribution home affairs. Fifteen of them will be purely procedural to supporting and conducting international mediation changes; for example, how we adjust the rules for efforts and grounding these efforts in a wider EU and technical implementing committees. All other areas international political strategy. where unanimity applied under the treaty of Nice will remain unchanged following entry into force of the treaty of Lisbon. I refer the noble Lord to the Answer EU: Free Trade Agreements given to PQ 207092 of January 2005. Question Asked by Lord Pearson of Rannoch Fishing: Scallops To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Question countries the European Union has free trade Asked by Lord Teverson agreements with; and how many such agreements To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in the European Union is negotiating. [HL327] order to preserve the marine floor and conserve marine stocks, they will set rules to limit scallopers The Minister for Trade and Investment (Lord Davies to a maximum of 8 dredges per side and a maximum of Abersoch): The European Union (EU) has free of 221 kw power in the zone 6 to 12 miles offshore. trade agreements (FTA) with South Africa, Chile and [HL377] WA 131 Written Answers[9 DECEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 132

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): The Government (Lord Davies of Oldham): We are considering the have no plans to draft such a UN Security Council appropriate course of action on this issue in conjunction resolution. We continue to support efforts to kick-start with the devolved Administrations. This may be to urgent negotiations which will lead to the creation of a pursue a solution in EU legislation by seeking to viable Palestinian state alongside a secure Israel. extend the restriction which currently prevents any vessels over 221 kw from beam trawling in the 12 nautical HMS “Caroline” miles zone around UK waters to scallop dredging. An alternative option would be to seek to agree bilateral Question agreements with other member states. Powers under Asked by Lord Laird the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 will enable restriction of fishing activities where this is appropriate To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the for nature conservation purposes. Written Answer by Baroness Taylor of Bolton on 26 November (WA 4) stating that HMS “Caroline” will remain in commission until the spring, how Food: MoD Establishments that answer relates to the proposed decommissioning to take place in December in Belfast. [HL452] Question Asked by Lord Hylton The Minister for International Defence and Security (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): My noble friend the To ask Her Majesty’s Government to what extent Minister for Strategic Defence Acquisition Reform, the Ministry of Defence sources food locally for its Lord Drayson, informed the noble Lord on 12 November establishments in England. [HL237] (Official Report, col. WA 216) that the trustees of the national museum of the Royal Navy have agreed to The Minister for International Defence and Security broker a heritage solution to the ship’s future. This (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The MoD does not directly process will take some time, but we would hope to be procure food for its UK establishments. Food for the in a position to announce the plans for the ship in the majority of service personnel working and living in spring. In the mean time, the ship will remain in UK units is provided under catering, retail and leisure the commission of the Royal Navy. (CRL) contracts and responsibility for sourcing the On 1 December the Royal Navy Reserve unit, which food rests with the CRL contractor. Food for UK used the ship as its base, was decommissioned. The civilian establishments is provided under multi-activity unit has now moved to Thiepval Barracks as HMS contracts and, again, responsibility for sourcing the “Hibernian”. food rests with the individual contractor. Data on the extent to which it is sourced locally are not held by Hostages: British Citizens the department. Question Purple Foodservice Solutions Ltd (PFS) supplies food to the small number of UK military establishments Asked by Lord Astor of Hever that are not covered by the CRL contracts as well as to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many UK Armed Forces personnel serving on operations British citizens are being held hostage by foreign and some overseas exercises. A report on the proportion groups; and which governments or organisations of domestically produced food used by government are holding them. [HL460] departments published in November 2008, covering the year from 1 April 2007 to 31 March 2008, shows The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth that under the PFS contract the proportion of domestically Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): As of 7 December produced food procured by MoD increased from 43 per 2009 the Foreign and Commonwealth Office was aware cent in 2006-07 to 59 per cent in 2007-08. This report, of six British nationals being held hostage aboard. and the first one covering 2006-07, can be accessed via Somali pirates have been holding two British nationals the following link at www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/ since October 2009. Of the five British nationals taken policy/publicsectorfood/documents/psfpi- hostage by Asa’ib Ahl al-Haqq in Iraq in 2007, the datareport081125.pdf. bodies of three have been returned to the UK. Our Figures for 2008-09 are not yet available. embassy in Sana’a is investigating the kidnap of a British national who went missing in Yemen in June 2009. In October 2009 an individual with dual UK Gaza nationality was kidnapped in Sudan. Question Asked by Lord Hylton House of Lords: Reform Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they plan to draft a resolution for the United Nations Asked by Lord Dykes Security Council about existing and additional Israeli To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their settlements in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, to response to suggestions to replace the House recognise and give membership to Palestinian lands of Lords with a nominated advisory committee of and to set dates for implementation. [HL405] experts. [HL336] WA 133 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 134

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry due to the variety of contractors and the various ways of Justice (Lord Bach): The Government are committed in which they are employed. As a result, detailed and to the creation of a reformed second Chamber with a reliable information is not held centrally and could be democratic mandate. The Government’s 2008 White provided only at disproportionate cost. Paper proposed that the reformed second Chamber should be either 80 per cent or 100 per cent elected through a system of direct elections in order to achieve Israel and Palestine a more accountable and representative second Chamber. Question The Queen’s Speech of 18 November confirmed that the Government will publish draft legislation Asked by Lord Hylton setting out a framework for a reformed second Chamber To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they in the next few months. plan to ask the United Nations Security Council to define the precise future boundaries of Israel and Iran Palestine. [HL400] Question The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): The Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what have no plans to take such action. We are committed representations they have made to the Government to achieving a negotiated solution in the Middle East. of Iran and the United Nations regarding executions We believe that negotiations are the best way to bring in Iran, particularly of members of the Kurdish about a just and lasting peace between the Israelis and community. [HL448] the Palestinians. We are clear that a final settlement should consist The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth of a two-state solution based on 1967 borders; a Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): The UK’s democratic state of Israel, secure from attack, recognised position on the death penalty is clear: we oppose it in by—and at peace with—all its neighbours; alongside a all its forms. Alongside our EU partners we have peaceful, democratic and territorially viable state of recalled our long-standing opposition to capital Palestine that accepts Israel as its friend and partner; punishment on at least 25 occasions this year. with Jerusalem the capital for both, and a just and Most recently, on 20 November 2009, the EU agreed settlement for . presidency summoned the Iranian ambassador in Stockholm to condemn a spate of executions, including that of Kurdish activist Ehsan Fattahian, and to express Libraries concern that a high number of Kurds with pending Question death sentences were facing imminent execution. The EU expressed regret at the execution of Fattahian, Asked by Baroness Scott of Needham Market and pleaded for clemency for the others. Also on 20 November, the UN General Assembly adopted a To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many resolution on the human rights situation in Iran for library authorities comply with national standards the seventh consecutive year. This resolution, co-sponsored for radio frequency identification and E4 libraries; by the EU, condemns the increasing number of executions and what measures they are taking to promote in Iran and sends a clear message of ongoing international those standards. [HL253] concern at the human rights situation in Iran. Alongside our EU and UN partners, the UK will Lord Davies of Oldham: The Department for Culture, continue to call on the Iranian authorities to abolish Media and Sport does not collect data on the number the death penalty and, in the mean time, to establish a of library authorities that comply with the UK data moratorium on executions as urged by United Nations model (ISO 28560 2) for radio frequency identification General Assembly resolutions 62/149 and 63/168. (RFID) or on the number of library authorities accredited under the E4 scheme. Iraq and Afghanistan The Museums, Libraries and Archives Council (MLA) is compiling an RFID guide for public libraries which Question will contain information on the new national standard Asked by Lord Astor of Hever and the benefits of its adoption. It also continues to support and sponsor the E4 accreditation scheme. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many civilian contractors lost their lives in support of United Kingdom operations in Iraq and Afghanistan Media: Foreign Ownership in (a) 2006, (b) 2007, and (c) 2008. [HL319] Question The Minister for International Defence and Security Asked by Lord Dykes (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): We take very seriously our responsibilities towards our civilian contractors To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and we greatly value the work done by them in supporting will consider legislation to provide that all owners operations. However, collating comprehensive data on and controllers of news media groups shall be fatalities suffered by our contractors is very difficult United Kingdom citizens. [HL565] WA 135 Written Answers[9 DECEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 136

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Department for Communities and Local Government & (Lord Davies of Oldham): The Government have no Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of plans to consider such legislation. Luton): The available information has been placed in the Library. Met Office: Publications Asked by Baroness Warsi Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many national insurance numbers have been given to Asked by Lord Stevens of Ludgate individuals in error in each of the past three years. [HL232] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the annual cost of producing the Met Office’s quarterly To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many publication Barometer; how many copies are printed; national insurance numbers have been given to and what is the objective of the publication. [HL292] foreign nationals in error in each of the past three years. [HL245] The Minister for International Defence and Security To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The cost of producing national insurance numbers have been revoked in Barometer in the past 12 months was £44,750. The the past five years. [HL247] Met Office prints 7,000 copies of each edition of To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the publication, which is also available on line at national insurance numbers given to foreign nationals www.metoffice.gov.uk. have been revoked in the last five years. [HL248] Barometer is the Met Office corporate magazine, aimed at informing and stimulating interest in weather Lord McKenzie of Luton: The department undertakes and the natural environment and demonstrating the rigorous checks on the identity of all adult national diverse range of services and activity in which the Met insurance number applicants and only when it is satisfied Office is involved. It is read globally and receives a with the identity of an individual will a number be broad range of positive feedback. allocated. There are limited occasions where it is identified Minister for the Olympics: Overseas Visits that an individual has been issued two national insurance numbers in error. In this situation one of the numbers Question will be cancelled. Asked by Lord Patten It is not possible to provide figures in respect of foreign nationals from this information. Figures for To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the the past five full years and the latest part year are in destinations, purposes, costs and names of those in the table: each official party of overseas visits on ministerial Occasions when an individual has been issued more than one national business undertaken by the Minister for the Olympics insurance number and one number has then been cancelled in (a) 2008, and (b) 2009 to date. [HL443] Year Number of cases

2004 513 Lord Davies of Oldham: This Government publishes 2005 491 an annual list of all ministerial travel costing over 2006 534 £500. The list includes a breakdown of travel by all 2007 1517 (see point 4 below) Ministers and the global figure for the cost of ministerial 2008 642 travel includes the cost of staff accompanying Ministers. 2009 (part) 541 Detail of travel taken in the current year will be published as soon as it is ready after the end of the Notes: financial year. All ministerial travel is undertaken in 1. Figures relate to calendar years. accordance with the Ministerial Code. 2. Figures for 2009 relate to the period 1 January to the 22 November. 3. Figures relate to the year the National Insurance Number National Insurance was cancelled from the Department for Work and Pensions IT records. Questions 4. The figure for 2007 is disproportionately high as it reflects an IT problem which occurred during the transfer of National Asked by Lord Laird Insurance Number accounts from the former Departmental Central Index to the improved Customer Information System. To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to The problem was immediately rectified. The figure for 2007 the Written Answer by Lord McKenzie of Luton (excluding these IT problem cases) is 562. on 5 November (WA 78), how many National Source: Insurance numbers have been issued to European Data is Department for Work and Pensions Management Union nationals and how many to non-European information. Union nationals in each of the last five years; and to nationals of which countries more than 1,000 In addition to the above table, a further 25 national National Insurance numbers per year have been insurance numbers were identified as having been issued. [HL138] incorrectly issued to individuals who did not satisfy WA 137 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 138 that requirement shortly after the introduction of the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth proof of right to work requirement in 2006. These Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): Former General national insurance numbers were not cancelled as in Musharraf was Chief of Army Staff from October isolation they do not provide access to the benefits 1998 to November 2007. From consular records we system or right to work in the UK. are aware of 11 British nationals who have alleged that they were either tortured or mistreated while in Pakistani custody during that period. However, there are constraints NATO on our ability to search records of past consular cases, and this figure should not therefore be taken as definitive. Question When appropriate and with the permission of the Asked by Lord Patten individual involved we can raise, and have raised, reports of mistreatment of British nationals in detention To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they in Pakistan at a senior level with the Pakistani authorities, have encouraged or will encourage NATO to improve as, for example, my right honourable friend the Foreign defences against cyber warfare aimed at its member Secretary did in September. As part of our bilateral states. [HL194] relationship, the UK and Pakistan conduct a Joint Judicial Co-operation Working Group. This group The Minister for International Defence and Security aims to establish a formal mechanism committing (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): The UK fully supported both parties to facilitate promptly requests for access the development of NATO’s cyber defence policy, to their own nationals who are being held by the other endorsed at the Bucharest summit in 2008, to enhance country’s authorities. the protection of its critical communication and information systems against disruption through attack Pensions or illegal access. The policy includes provision of Question assistance to individual allies if requested. The UK has long been an advocate of the need for NATO’s Asked by Lord Laird transformation to be a continual process to ensure To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to that the alliance has the right capabilities and structures the Written Answer by Lord McKenzie of Luton to meet current, emerging and enduring challenges to on 6 November (WA97–8), from where the £1 billion its security, including cyber defence. We have, therefore, provided for benefits and pensions from the 2.5 per also urged allies to consider NATO’s role in tackling cent increase in the basic state pension comes. new threats, such as cyber attack, as part of the [HL106] process of updating its strategic concept. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Northern Rock Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Luton): The basic state pension is paid out of the Question National Insurance Fund. Benefits paid from the National Asked by Lord Laird Insurance Fund are part of annually managed expenditure, and any changes in benefit rates are accounted for in To ask Her Majesty’s Government which directors the Government’s annually managed expenditure forecasts. of Northern Rock received bonuses this year; how much they were; and for what. [HL509] Pirates: Kenya Question The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Asked by Lord Tebbit (Lord Myners): Northern Rock executives and senior To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many management did not receive any cash bonuses in 2009. persons have been arrested by the Royal Navy on Full details of directors’ remuneration payable in suspicion of piracy; how many have been released; 2009 were announced in Northern Rock’s 2008 annual and how many transferred to Kenyan jurisdiction report, available from Northern Rock’s website at for trial. [HL81] http://companyinfo.northernrock.co.uk/ investorRelations/corporateReports.asp. The Minister for International Defence and Security (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): To date, eight suspected Somali pirates have been detained by the Royal Navy Pakistan: Torture and transferred to Kenya for prosecution. A further 53 suspected pirates have been encountered during Question boarding operations. However, following detailed analysis Asked by Lord Ahmed of all physical evidence and witness statements, all suspects were released as it was assessed that there was To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many insufficient evidence to be reasonably confident that a allegations of torture of British citizens in Pakistan successful prosecution could be undertaken in either when General Pervez Musharraf was Chief of the Kenya or (more recently) Seychelles. The subsequent Pakistan Army have been made to them; and what destruction of any pirate equipment and weapons representations they have made to the government serves as a disruption measure and prevents their of Pakistan about such allegations. [HL288] future use. WA 139 Written Answers[9 DECEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 140

Prisoners: Growing Food The Secretary of State’s ITT requirements (R2.4) expect that training provision will be designed and Question delivered to take account of individual training needs. Asked by Lord Hylton This means that programmes will be adapted and tailored to take account of the skills, experiences and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what needs of all trainee teachers. The requirements also consideration HM Prison Service is giving to allowing expect (R2.3) that providers will make available to prisoners to produce food on open spaces within trainee teachers a range of suitable resources to support prison grounds. [HL235] them in meeting the QTS standards throughout course provision. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry School leadership has a strong focus on helping of Justice (Lord Bach): Various land-based activities teachers with value for money considerations in the operate in public sector prisons providing employment selection and deployment of resources. This is typically places for up to 2,000 prisoners at any one time. This devolved to departmental level in secondary schools, work provides opportunities for them to learn new and within curriculum areas in the primary phase skills and achieve sector-related qualifications valued where middle leaders are expected to monitor value by prospective employers. for money closely. There is a wide range of high Market and amenity gardening takes place in more quality resource material currently freely available to than 100 public prisons. Where it is possible and/or schools, including through the Teacher Training Resource appropriate to do so, food production takes place in Bank, Behaviour4learning, Multiverse, the Special more than 70 prisons under both protective cropping Educational Needs portal and the subject resource and in open conditions. networks. Resources are also available through the national strategies, Qualifications and Curriculum Development School Foods Trust Agency (QCDA), specialist schools and academies Question trust, the exam boards and all of the curriculum and subject associations. Asked by Lord Dykes In addition, there is a vast range of commercially available print and online materials available to schools. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Through their subject training in ITT teachers will be will make the School Foods Trust a statutory body. taught how to discriminate and to make effective use [HL341] of resources to support their teaching. The Training and Development Agency for Schools The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, (TDA) makes available to trainers and teachers a wide Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness range of resources to support their professional Morgan of Drefelin): The Government have no plans development and their classroom practice through to make the School Food Trust a statutory body. It subject resource networks, links with the QCDA and is a company limited by guarantee and a charity. the national strategies. The agency has developed a web-based database of professional development Schools: Teacher Training opportunities for the whole children’s workforce in schools. Question This contains nearly 5,000 development opportunities Asked by Baroness Hooper which are delivered by a range of organisations including schools, universities, subject associations, and private To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the companies. Written Answer by Baroness Morgan of Drefelin The TDA also provides online guidance to schools on9July(WA 172–3), what is the recommended to support the effective impact evaluation of professional proportion of initial teacher training that is concerned development. A review of the guidance is currently with enabling teachers to select appropriate educational underway and the TDA is working closely with interested resources; what support is in place to help teachers, bodies on that. especially newly qualified teachers, gain value for money in their selection of educational resources; and whether they take into account teachers’ ability to assess what materials most effectively support Shipping: MV “Canna” their teaching. [HL271] Question Asked by Lord Laird The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Rathlin ferry MV “Canna” had a valid passenger Morgan of Drefelin): The Government do not prescribe certificate throughout September 2008. [HL505] proportions of time to be spent on individual activities within initial teacher training (ITT). The Secretary of State has laid down the qualified teacher status (QTS) The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): standards against which training providers must develop Further to my Answer of 29 June 2009 (Official Report, the design and delivery of their courses to enable col. WA 23) the MV “Canna” did not hold a valid trainees to demonstrate that they can meet the standards. passenger certificate between 1 and 11 September 2008. WA 141 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 142

Sport and Recreation: Funding Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to Asked by Lord Moynihan the Written Answer by Lord Davies of Oldham on 1 December (HL208), what is the distinction between To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion “Eastings”and “Northings”in the table of consented of Sport England’s combined Lottery and Exchequer discharges. [HL462] funding went to local authorities in each year since 1997. [HL479] Lord Davies of Oldham: Northings and Eastings are the two numbers used within the Ordnance Survey To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much National Grid reference system for stating the position financial support was provided to local authorities of any point in Britain on an OS map. A Northing for sports provision by the Department for Culture, refers to the position of the point along the vertical Media and Sport for each of the years 1997 to axis and an Easting refers to the position of the point 2008. [HL481] along the horizontal axis on an OS map.

Lord Davies of Oldham: The information in the Vehicles: Maximum Dimensions table has been provided by Sport England. Question Lottery Funding Asked by Lord Berkeley Financial Year Lottery Funding Total £ To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action 1996-97 56,526,352 they are taking to ensure that truck drivers who 1997-98 114,991,610 intentionally flout maximum dimension regulations 1998-99 77,365,551 are prosecuted and have a deterrent penalty imposed. 1999-00 48,684,282 [HL581] 2000-01 68,846,039 2001-02 136,676,297 The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): 2002-03 58,663,049 The Department for Transport’s Vehicle and Operator 2003-04 45,433,128 Services Agency deals with any such matters as they 2004-05 67,736,059 arise. The agency has a range of enforcement options 2005-06 25,516,222 open to it and it routinely applies whatever sanctions 2006-07 12,548,083 are most appropriate in the circumstances. These 2007-08 23,250,211 measures include prohibiting non-compliant vehicles 2008-09 39,875,861 from further use, imposing financial penalties, pursuing Grand Total 776,112,744 court prosecutions, and also referring case histories to the traffic commissioners for review in the case of GB-registered vehicles and operators. Exchequer Funding Sport England is unable to provide a breakdown of past Exchequer funding to local authorities because of War Memorials the way the data historically have been captured. Sport Question England has changed the data capture process this year and a figure for 2009-10 will be available after the Asked by Lord Sheikh end of the financial year. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many memorials have been built in the United Kingdom for servicemen from the Indian Army who died Thames Barrier: Sewage during World War 1 or World War 2. [HL523] Questions The Minister for International Defence and Security Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours (Baroness Taylor of Bolton): This information is not held by the Ministry of Defence. To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the Written Answer by Lord Davies of Oldham on The UK National Inventory of War Memorials, a 1 December (HL208), what is the distinction between registered charity, is currently working to compile “Thames” and “River Thames” in the table of a record of all war memorials in the UK. Its website consented discharges. [HL461] http://www.ukniwm.org.uk/ lists all those memorials that have so far been registered with it. Several of these are dedicated to the Indian Army including a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, memorial to the 17th Dogra Regiment of the Indian Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Army located at the National Arboretum, Alrewas, (Lord Davies of Oldham): There is no distinction Staffordshire, and an Indian Army Memorial Organ between the term “Thames” and “River Thames”. and Screen located in the Royal Memorial Chapel They both refer to the freshwater river Thames. at Sandhurst. Wednesday 9 December 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. EU: Agriculture and Fisheries Council ...... 161 Pre-Budget Report...... 163

EU: Education, Youth and Culture Council ...... 161 Security Industry Authority: Annual Report ...... 164

Fiscal Responsibility Bill...... 162 UN: Central Emergency Response Fund ...... 164

Wednesday 9 December 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Alcohol: Duty ...... 123 Israel and Palestine ...... 134

Animal Health ...... 124 Libraries ...... 134 Armed Forces: Aircraft...... 124 Media: Foreign Ownership ...... 134 Armed Forces: Armoured Fighting Vehicles...... 126 Met Office: Publications ...... 135 Armed Forces: Compensation Scheme...... 127 Minister for the Olympics: Overseas Visits...... 135 Armed Forces: Fatalities ...... 127 National Insurance ...... 135 Armed Forces: Helicopters ...... 128 NATO...... 137 Constable of the Tower of London...... 128 Northern Rock...... 137 Council Tax ...... 128 Pakistan: Torture ...... 137 EU: Community Development Fund...... 129 Pensions...... 138 EU: Free Trade Agreements...... 129 Pirates: Kenya...... 138 EU: National Veto...... 130 Prisoners: Growing Food...... 139 Fishing: Scallops...... 130 School Foods Trust...... 139 Food: MoD Establishments ...... 131 Schools: Teacher Training...... 139 Gaza ...... 131

HMS “Caroline”...... 132 Shipping: MV “Canna” ...... 140

Hostages: British Citizens ...... 132 Sport and Recreation: Funding...... 141

House of Lords: Reform...... 132 Thames Barrier: Sewage...... 141

Iran...... 133 Vehicles: Maximum Dimensions...... 142

Iraq and Afghanistan...... 133 War Memorials...... 142 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL81] ...... 138 [HL194] ...... 137

[HL106] ...... 138 [HL212] ...... 127

[HL138] ...... 135 [HL223] ...... 128

[HL181] ...... 124 [HL232] ...... 136 Col. No. Col. No. [HL235] ...... 139 [HL352] ...... 126

[HL237] ...... 131 [HL353] ...... 126

[HL239] ...... 129 [HL354] ...... 126

[HL245] ...... 136 [HL377] ...... 130

[HL247] ...... 136 [HL400] ...... 134

[HL248] ...... 136 [HL401] ...... 129

[HL253] ...... 134 [HL405] ...... 131

[HL271] ...... 139 [HL443] ...... 135

[HL288] ...... 137 [HL448] ...... 133

[HL292] ...... 135 [HL452] ...... 132

[HL313] ...... 127 [HL460] ...... 132

[HL314] ...... 127 [HL461] ...... 141

[HL319] ...... 133 [HL462] ...... 142

[HL320] ...... 124 [HL479] ...... 141

[HL321] ...... 125 [HL481] ...... 141

[HL322] ...... 125 [HL505] ...... 140

[HL323] ...... 125 [HL509] ...... 137

[HL324] ...... 128 [HL511] ...... 123

[HL326] ...... 130 [HL512] ...... 123

[HL327] ...... 129 [HL513] ...... 123

[HL336] ...... 132 [HL523] ...... 142

[HL341] ...... 139 [HL565] ...... 134

[HL351] ...... 126 [HL581] ...... 142 Volume 715 Wednesday No. 13 9 December 2009

CONTENTS

Wednesday 9 December 2009 Questions Public Spending: Infrastructure...... 1075 House of Lords: Procedure Committee...... 1076 Voting: Service Personnel ...... 1079 Boundary Committee: Suffolk ...... 1080 Community Radio (Amendment) Order 2010 Legislative Reform (Insolvency) (Miscellaneous Provisions) Order 2009 Non-Domestic Rating (Chargeable Amounts) (England) Regulations 2009 European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (1996 Hague Convention on Protection of Children etc.) Order 2009 Legislative Reform (Revocation of Prescribed Form of Penalty Notice for Disorderly Behaviour) Order 2009 Motion to Refer to Grand Committee ...... 1084 Digital Economy Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion ...... 1084 Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Bill [HL] Second Reading ...... 1085 Bribery Bill [HL] Second Reading ...... 1085 Pupils and the Media Question for Short Debate...... 1127 Grand Committee Immigration (Biometric Registration) (Amendment No. 2) Regulations 2009 ...... GC 53 Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 (Designation of Participating Countries) (England, Wales and Northern Ireland) (No. 3) Order 2009...... GC 62 Social Security (Contributions Credits for Parents and Carers) Regulations 2009 ...... GC 70 Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2009...... GC 78 National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009...... GC 92 Health Professions (Hearing Aid Dispensers) Order 2009 Debated...... GC 107 Written Statements...... WS 161 Written Answers...... WA 123