COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
LIQUOR CONTROL COMMITTEE joint with the GAMING OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE PUBLIC HEARING
STATE CAPITOL HARRISBURG, PA
RYAN OFFICE BUILDING ROOM 2 05
MONDAY, MAY 11, 2 015 11:00 A.M.
PRESENTATION ON SEPARATE CASINO LIQUOR LICENSE
LIQUOR CONTROL COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: HONORABLE CHRIS ROSS, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE BECKY CORBIN HONORABLE THOMAS H. KILLION HONORABLE KURT A. MASSER HONORABLE MARK MUSTIO HONORABLE JOHN D. PAYNE HONORABLE MIKE REESE HONORABLE MIKE REGAN HONORABLE PAUL COSTA, DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN HONORABLE MICHELLE F. BROWNLEE HONORABLE MARIA P. DONATUCCI HONORABLE PATRICK J. HARKINS HONORABLE TIM MAHONEY HONORABLE PETER SCHWEYER HONORABLE RONALD G. WATERS
GAMING OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT: HONORABLE JOHN PAYNE, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE ROSEMARY BROWN 2
GAMING OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE MEMBERS PRESENT (Cont’d): HONORABLE RUSS DIAMOND HONORABLE GEORGE DUNBAR HONORABLE MARCIA HAHN HONORABLE SUE HELM HONORABLE AARON KAUFER HONORABLE KATE ANNE KLUNK HONORABLE JERRY KNOWLES HONORABLE RYAN MACKENZIE HONORABLE TEDD NESBIT HONORABLE DAVID PARKER HONORABLE PAUL SCHEMEL HONORABLE NICK KOTIK, DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN HONORABLE DOM COSTA HONORABLE MARTY FLYNN HONORABLE MARK ROZZI
* * * * * Pennsylvania House of Representatives Commonwealth of Pennsylvania 3
LIQUOR CONTROL COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT: SHAUNA BOSCASSY MAJORITY EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR VIRGINIA GREGORY MAJORITY DISTRICT OFFICE MANAGER DIXIE MINNICH MAJORITY ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT
LYNN BENKA-DAVIES DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR ANDREW MOSER DEMOCRATIC RESEARCH ANALYST
GAMING OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT: JOSIAH SHELLY MAJORITY EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SHAWNE LEMASTER MAJORITY LEGISLATIVE ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT
CHARLES MILLER DEMOCRATIC EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR 4
I N D E X
TESTIFIERS
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NAME PAGE
TIM HOLDEN CHAIRMAN, LIQUOR CONTROL BOARD (LCB)...... 6
ACCOMPANIED BY: JOSEPH "SKIP" BRION MEMBER OF LCB
MICHAEL NEGRA MEMBER OF LCB
JERRY WATERS, SR. DIRECTOR OF REGULATORY AFFAIRS FOR LCB
RODRIGO DIAZ, ESQ. EXECUTIVE DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL FOR LCB
ADRIAN R. KING, JR., ESQ. PARTNER, BALLARD SPAHR, LLP...... 31
JOSEPH TYRRELL REGIONAL VICE PRESIDENT, GOVERNMENT RELATIONS, CAESARS ENTERTAINMENT CORPORATION...... 37
AMY CHRISTIE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, PA LICENSED BEVERAGE & TAVERN ASSOC...... 73
MELISSA BOVA DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, PA RESTAURANT & LODGING ASSOC...... 78
SUBMITTED WRITTEN TESTIMONY
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(See submitted written testimony and handouts online.) 5
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
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3 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Good
4 morning, everyone. I ’d like to welcome you all to a joint
5 committee meeting of the Liquor Control and Gaming
6 Oversight Committees. This is a joint public hearing to
7 discuss the subject of separate casino liquor license
8 proposals.
9 And I ’m Chair of the Liquor Committee. I ’m
10 Representative Chris Ross. I have with me my colleagues
11 Chairman Costa from the Liquor Committee and also Chairman
12 Payne and Chairman Kotik here from the Gaming Oversight
13 Committee. And I ’m looking forward to the discussion
14 today.
15 Are there any opening remarks by any of the other
16 Chairs?
17 Okay. At this point we will call the respective
18 rolls of the two Committees. Maybe start with my Committee
19 and Ms. Minnich, please.
20
21 (Roll was taken.)
22
23 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS:
24 Fortunately, we don’t need a quorum. Seriously, we will
25 have a number of Members I ’m sure coming in. I know at 6
1 least two other Committee meetings going on right now and
2 people are coming and going a little bit, so we'll probably
3 get some more people attending.
4 For the information of all those in attendance,
5 this meeting is being videotaped by the Broadcasting Office
6 of the House Bipartisan Management Committee. The video is
7 also being made available to the news media and for
8 streaming on House websites.
9 So without any further ado, I would like to
10 introduce our first panel, and that is the panel from the
11 Liquor Control Board with Chairman Holden; Members Brion,
12 Negra; and Jerry Waters from the Director of Regulatory
13 Affairs; and Rodrigo Diaz, Executive Deputy Chief Counsel.
14 I think I see all those people here.
15 So, gentlemen, if you'd like to begin.
16 MR. HOLDEN: Good morning. And we would like to
17 thank Chairman Ross and Chairman Costa and Chairman Payne
18 and Chairman Kotik and all the Members of the two
19 Committees for inviting the Pennsylvania Liquor Control
20 Board to testify this morning about the possible creation
21 of a casino liquor license.
22 We prepared some rather detailed testimony, which
23 I believe you were provided with before the hearing. We
24 hope it will prove helpful as you consider the issues
25 involved. In the interest of allowing ample time for your 7
1 questions, I am going to read from the last page of our
2 testimony, which summarizes the key issues you might
3 consider in drafting legislation.
4 There is currently no liquor license specifically
5 designed for casinos. Instead, the 12 casinos utilize
6 restaurant liquor licenses within their gaming facilities
7 to provide and sell alcoholic beverages to their customers.
8 While casinos are afforded additional privileges under the
9 Liquor Code and the Gaming Act, as noted in our testimony,
10 they are otherwise subject to the same restrictions as
11 holders of restaurant liquor licenses, despite their unique
12 operations and licensing configurations.
13 As you consider whether to create a new casino
14 license, we would offer the following issues for your
15 deliberation:
16 1. Whether to allow the sale and service of
17 alcohol after 2:00 a.m., and if so, whether to
18 simply extend it to 4:00 a.m. or 24/7
19 2. Whether to allow service of free drinks to
20 patrons at any time, regardless of whether
21 they are actively playing slots or table
22 games, "comping" patrons with free alcohol
23 3. Whether to allow the accrual of "loyalty" or
24 "rewards" points based upon a patron's alcohol
25 purchases. By the way, w e ’d be interested in 8
1 that opportunity as well.
2 4. Whether to exempt casinos from the rules
3 regarding discount pricing practices.
4 Examples would be happy hours, daily drink
5 specials applicable to other retail licensees
6 5. Whether to exempt casinos from the regulations
7 involving events, tournaments, or contests,
8 including prize limitations, which currently
9 are $1,000 per event or no more than $25,000
10 in a seven-day period
11 6. Whether to allow multiple restaurant venues to
12 sell alcohol utilizing only the casino liquor
13 license. An example of that would be
14 separately-owned restaurants would be able to
15 sell alcohol under a casino's "umbrella"
16 license
17 7. Whether to provide a complete exemption from
18 the license suspension provisions of the
19 Liquor Code, while at the same time imposing
20 more significant fines for unlawful conduct,
21 especially for repeated violations of sales to
22 minors and visibly intoxicated persons
23 8. Whether to require that current casino
24 operators obtain the new casino licenses, and
25 if so, whether a casino operator may be 9
1 allowed to retain its current liquor license
2 if it was purchased on the open market under
3 the quota system, and whether liquor licenses
4 issued outside the quota system, pursuant to
5 the Gaming Act, should simply be surrendered
6 to the PLCB.
7
8 Thank you for the opportunity to address you this
9 morning, and we look forward to your questions.
10 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Thank
11 you, Chairman Holden.
12 And I want to recognize that w e ’ve been joined by
13 Representatives Mackenzie and Reese. I didn’t see anybody
14 else unless I missed somebody. No.
15 Okay. At this time it’s open for questions. Any
16 Members that have questions?
17 Representative Diamond.
18 REPRESENTATIVE DIAMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
19 Thank you, Chairman Holden for coming here.
20 One of the things that we think about or that
21 I’ve been thinking about, and I know at least one or two
22 colleagues have shared my concerns, is if we were to exempt
23 in any way, shape, or form casinos from the 2:00 a.m.
24 closing time, be it 24/7 license or extend it to 4:00 a.m.,
25 have you thought about the implications of simply turning 10
1 the casinos into after-hours clubs where people drive from
2 some other location at 1:30 in the morning perhaps with
3 alcohol in their system and go to the casino simply to
4 extend their drinking time? Has the LCB given that
5 possibility any thought and the safety concerns on our
6 highways?
7 MR. HOLDEN: Well, it’s certainly a good point,
8 Representative. I ’m not sure we have taken it under
9 consideration because we are just responding to requests
10 that the industry were looking for and we are just putting
11 options on the table. But you make a very legitimate
12 point, and I don’t know if Rod Diaz from our legal
13 department has any follow-up on that or Jerry from
14 Regulatory Affairs.
15 MR. DIAZ: As Chairman Holden said, what he
16 summarized are the issues that the industry members have
17 brought to our attention over the years. These are the
18 types of questions they’ve asked. W e ’re not advocating
19 that you do one thing or another or in particular with
20 these issues; these are just the questions w e ’ve received
21 over the years.
22 REPRESENTATIVE DIAMOND: Thank you.
23 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS:
24 Representative Kaufer.
25 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 11
1 My question, I guess, is in regard to if we were
2 to allow this for the casinos, there's sort of some
3 competitive advantages already built into alcohol
4 consumption at our casinos. It certainly seems like this
5 would offer even a less competitive environment to
6 nightlife and bars that are surrounding casinos that have
7 certainly seen a drop in my area in the number of patrons
8 who are going there as opposed to casinos. I ’m wondering
9 what your perspective is on how it might affect other
10 people with licenses if we specifically now allow the
11 casino to have an extended license.
12 MR. HOLDEN: Again, another valid point. And as
13 I stated previously, and Rod confirmed, we were just
14 responding to questions that we received from the industry
15 over the years, but a very valid point.
16 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: I just have one follow-
17 up, please.
18 And if we do this, you’re saying this would be a
19 specific license so other bars would be excluded from this?
20 They would still be closing at 2:00 but w e ’d be allowing
21 other places to be open 24/7, the casinos? Is that -
22 MR. HOLDEN: Well, that’s totally up to your
23 discretion but that’s what the industry is looking for.
24 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: Thank you.
25 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Okay. 12
1 Representative Kaufer -- or Costa, excuse me.
2 LIQUOR CONTROL DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN COSTA:
3 Remember me?
4 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Yes,
5 that’s you.
6 LIQUOR CONTROL DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN COSTA: Good
7 morning, everyone.
8 Chairman, you’d mentioned about allowing multiple
9 restaurant venues utilizing one license. Now, I ’m not
10 familiar with a whole lot of the casinos, but the one in
11 our region, the Rivers, has a couple separate restaurants
12 and they have bars. Are they one license or are they all
13 separate?
14 MR. HOLDEN: It’s funny you should mention that,
15 Representative Costa. Mr. O ’Brien and myself were just
16 talking about that. So maybe, Rod, could you elaborate on
17 why some casinos only have one license and others have
18 multiple licenses?
19 MR. DIAZ: Sure. Some casinos have brought in
20 independent restaurateurs to operate within their
21 facilities. The Liquor Code requires anyone who has a
22 pecuniary interest to be on the license. These people
23 don’t have an interest in the casino so they can’t be put
24 on the casino license, so they have to acquire their
25 license in some other manner. 13
1 And I think in the information the Board provided
2 to you, you will see there's a whole category of associated
3 licenses within the casino. Some casinos do have licenses
4 associated with them, other operators; some don't.
5 LIQUOR CONTROL DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN COSTA: Thank
6 you
7 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Thank
8 you.
9 I want to recognize that we've been joined by
10 Representative Flynn and ask that he be added to the roll.
11 Representative Payne, please.
12 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: Thank
13 you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Mr. Holden, for you and
14 the Board's support in the past four months for my efforts.
15 A couple of quick explanations. My understanding
16 is the casinos were looking for an extension pass, too,
17 because their surrounding States, the competitors, have
18 such an advantage over our State. Is that your
19 understanding?
20 MR. HOLDEN: I believe so.
21 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: Okay.
22 And we'll find out when they testify.
23 The free drinks are already allowed but they're
24 only allowed to patrons that are actively gaming on the
25 machines? 14
1 MR. HOLDEN: Correct.
2 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: And
3 this is an expansion to pretty much anybody that would be
4 in the casino, whether they're sitting at a machine or not?
5 MR. HOLDEN: That’s correct, too.
6 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: And do
7 we have that anywhere else?
8 MR. HOLDEN: Is that correct, Jerry?
9 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: To
10 your knowledge do we have that anywhere else?
11 MR. HOLDEN: No.
12 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: No.
13 MR. HOLDEN: No.
14 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: So
15 this would be unique. And the happy hour right now is
16 allowed other places but they're kind of looking to -
17 MR. HOLDEN: Expand it.
18 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: -
19 expand it.
20 MR. HOLDEN: Right.
21 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: All
22 right. And I'm trying to just go one by one and make sure
23 I'm on -- the prize limitations, now that's something
24 that's not unique to the casinos, correct?
25 MR. HOLDEN: Correct. 15
1 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: And
2 we've received requests -- I know we even have bills in our
3 Gaming Committee to look at raising the limits and raising
4 the weekly drawings and all the other things that we're
5 doing. You may not have the answer but I ’d be interested
6 in knowing this for the Committee is when was the last time
7 we ever changed the limits?
8 MR. HOLDEN: I ’m not sure they were ever changed.
9 Rod, were they?
10 MR. DIAZ: The Board’s limits for events,
11 tournaments, or contests was changed within the last year
12 or two when the Small Games of Chance Act’s limits changed.
13 So we were trying to create some kind of parity -
14 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: To
15 match.
16 MR. DIAZ: -- between the clubs and the
17 restaurants.
18 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: Okay.
19 All right. So that answers that one.
20 And then the last question I have, on the Liquor
21 Code violations, w e ’ve heard this year so far from
22 testimony from most of the casinos that for the underage
23 person who gets in and gets cited, the casino obviously -
24 and they should -- have a substantial penalty. The person
25 who committed the offense gets a no-trespassing citation 16
1 but sometimes, as we all were young one day, and it becomes
2 a challenge or a game to see whether we can get in and do
3 it again and again and again. Would the Board be in favor
4 of at least looking at a penalty for the repeat offender
5 who's committing those acts, regardless if it's at the
6 casino or the restaurant or tavern?
7 MR. HOLDEN: Certainly, yes.
8 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: Okay.
9 Because my understanding is right now, if I have the
10 correct information, say I'm the perpetrator and I come in
11 to the local sports bar and it's not my first offense,
12 second offense, third offense, that the bar itself is
13 paying the penalty but there's no additional charges
14 against that individual.
15 MR. HOLDEN: That'd be State Police Liquor
16 Enforcement issue. And I think they might need legislative
17 authority.
18 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: Yes,
19 and they do. They've indicated that they don't have the
20 ability to charge them with a misdemeanor or revoke their
21 driver's license for 90 days or any of those things.
22 MR. HOLDEN: Yes.
23 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: I
24 always look at things as a two-way street. It's your
25 responsibility to make sure you're serving an adult who's 17
1 not intoxicated, but it's also that person's responsibility
2 to not continually violate the Liquor Code or the Gaming
3 Code.
4 MR. HOLDEN: Correct.
5 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: All
6 right. Thank you very much.
7 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
8 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: And I'd
9 like to also recognize we've been joined by representative
10 Dom Costa, as well as Representative Killion. And there's
11 a brief follow-up that Representative -
12 LIQUOR CONTROL DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN COSTA:
13 Chairman Payne -
14 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: -- Paul
15 Costa would like -
16 LIQUOR CONTROL DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN COSTA: -- the
17 last couple sessions I actually introduced a bill that does
18 that, that penalizes the minor similar to being caught
19 drinking underage. If you try to attempt to go into a
20 casino and you're not of age, it would be the same
21 penalties as a DUI. So hopefully it's in your Committee.
22 I'm not sure where it ended up.
23 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: Well,
24 if it's in ours, it's moving.
25 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: 18
1 Representative Mahoney, question.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 Thank you for being here.
4 My question, I want to know the citations as far
5 as the casinos. Are there more regular citations being
6 issued there than in other establishments?
7 MR. HOLDEN: Well, Pennsylvania State Police
8 Liquor Enforcement has a presence at all 12 casinos.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: But is that deterring a
10 lot of citations as far as a normal establishment -
11 MR. HOLDEN: You mean compared to non-casino
12 licensees?
13 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: Yes.
14 MR. HOLDEN: Again, I think that’s a question for
15 the Liquor Enforcement. I don’t know, Jerry or Rod, if you
16 have any -
17 MR. WATERS: Representative Mahoney, over the
18 course of the time that the casinos have been in business,
19 we have not seen an uptick so to say with respect to
20 citations across the board relative to the casinos. There
21 are a few casinos that have basically come to our
22 attention. I probably will defer to our Executive Deputy
23 Counsel to speak to that in regards to what has been
24 adjudicated.
25 The process, so you know and for the Committee, 19
1 is that the Pennsylvania State Police Bureau of Liquor
2 Control Enforcement is responsible for any citations
3 brought on a casino. When a citation is brought, it then
4 goes in front of an Administrative Law Judge, and at the
5 adjudication period, the Administrative Law Judge will put
6 the appropriate fine on there. If it rises to a level that
7 needs the Board’s attention, it then at the time of the
8 renewal will come forward to our attention and we will
9 handle it accordingly.
10 Rod, would you like to comment with respect to
11 adjudications?
12 MR. DIAZ: Just that all licensee’s citation
13 history is on our website. If you want to see how a
14 particular licensee is doing, you can just put that license
15 number in and all citations associated with it will pop up.
16 It will tell you what the charge was and the penalty.
17 MR. WATERS: But what I was getting to, these
18 casinos aren’t like what a nuisance bar would be in an
19 urban area like for their size.
20 MR. BRION: I think when you look at the casino
21 licensing and now they’re just using regular R licenses
22 with a casino license that they can do what I would call a
23 sublicense. For the size of the floor area, they really
24 are not a nuisance by any stretch of the imagination.
25 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: So having the State 20
1 Police there is probably a deterrent?
2 MR. BRION: Yes. I mean some of them have had
3 incidences with serving minors or serving VIPs, as any
4 other licensee would have, and it seems to be a little more
5 newsworthy because of the size of the casino and who they
6 are. But at least in my opinion as a board member you’re a
7 40,000 square foot casino versus a 5,000 square foot
8 licensee restaurant, they don’t have on the average any
9 more violations than the restaurants would have.
10 MR. DIAZ: Yeah, and it might even be below
11 average given the amount of -
12 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: That’s what I was trying
13 to get to.
14 MR. DIAZ: -- business that they do and the
15 amount of transactions that they have, it’s actually -- I
16 think they’re relatively good citizens to say the least.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: For the liquor and the
18 alcohol they’re serving per -- it’s probably lower, is that
19 right?
20 MR. HOLDEN: Possibly.
21 MR. DIAZ: Yeah, I don’t think we have any data
22 that says that but I think my gut feeling would be to agree
23 with you.
24 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: All right. Thank you.
25 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: And just 21
1 for the audience, VIPs are not very important persons;
2 they’re visibly intoxicated people. We just sometimes need
3 to clarify these things.
4 I just want to recognize that w e ’ve been joined
5 by Representatives Brown, Brownlee, and Donatucci and ask
6 that they be added to the rolls.
7 Before I go to a second round with Representative
8 Kaufer, are there any Members that have not asked
9 questions?
10 Representative Mackenzie.
11 REPRESENTATIVE MACKENZIE: Thank you, Chairman
12 Ross and Members of the Liquor Control Board for joining us
13 today. I appreciate you being here.
14 Just some quick questions since w e ’re on the
15 topic of the State Police at the casinos. Are those State
16 Police specifically assigned to the casino or do they have
17 other tasks where they are at other locations?
18 MR. HOLDEN: We really don’t know.
19 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: Okay.
20 MR. HOLDEN: You’d have to ask Pennsylvania State
21 Police Liquor Enforcement.
22 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: And are they wholly paid
23 for by the State Police or are they somehow compensated by
24 the casinos?
25 MR. HOLDEN: No, they’re paid for by transfer of 22
1 funds from the Pennsylvania Liquor Control Board to the
2 Pennsylvania State Police, which was $24 million last year.
3 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: The Liquor Control
4 Board, we pay specifically for the salary -
5 MR. HOLDEN: Yes. We transfer funds -
6 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: -- and benefits for
7 the -
8 MR. HOLDEN: -- to the -
9 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: -- State Police who are
10 staffed?
11 MR. WATERS: Representative, let me clear -- it's
12 my understanding that the individual State Police that are
13 onsite are that of the Pennsylvania State Police. With
14 regards to the enforcement of the casino, that is done by
15 the Pennsylvania State Police Bureau of Liquor Control
16 Enforcement, which, as the Chairman said, we transfer to
17 the Pennsylvania State Police approximately $21 million for
18 the enforcement of the entire Commonwealth with respect to
19 liquor.
20 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Do you
21 want to clarify?
22 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: Yes.
23 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS:
24 Representative Payne wants to further clarify the role of
25 the State Police in relation to casinos. 23
1 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: Yes.
2 Thanks.
3 From my knowledge, when the original 2004
4 legislation was passed, it included a provision to provide
5 State Police in every one of the casinos. Outside the
6 legislation it was negotiated on a number of State Police
7 that would be in the casino. I don’t want to quote that
8 number now for the public record because it’s changed since
9 ’04, but suffice it to say it was a substantial amount of
10 State Troopers were assigned to each casino. They were not
11 there as part of the Liquor Control Board. They weren’t to
12 be enforcement officers as much as to have a presence in
13 the casino to prevent any illegal actions or fights or
14 problems. Again, casinos were new in ’04 and that’s what
15 they did.
16 That has been negotiated down. That number has
17 been negotiated down since that date and I ’m hopeful we can
18 negotiate it down again because that particular contingent
19 of State Police officers is paid for out of the casino
20 money. It’s not out of the General Fund, okay?
21 REPRESENTATIVE MAHONEY: Okay. Great. Thank
22 you.
23 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS:
24 Representative Schweyer.
25 REPRESENTATIVE SCHWEYER: Thank you, Chairman 24
1 Ross. And I know you have a busy agenda today so I ’ll be
2 brief.
3 Gentlemen, thank you.
4 Looking at your eight bullet points, trying to
5 stick to those specific topics, your second bullet point
6 you asked about allowing service of free drinks to patrons.
7 Perhaps this is a question for LCE but are you really
8 seeing that this is an enforceable issue? I mean when
9 somebody’s at one slot machine, they get up with a drink
10 and go to another one. They’re not actively playing or are
11 they actively playing. How has enforcement been on that
12 particular topic?
13 MR. HOLDEN: Again, that’s probably a question
14 for Liquor Enforcement.
15 REPRESENTATIVE SCHWEYER: Fair enough. Fair
16 enough.
17 The second one is just going back to the concept
18 of would you have one umbrella license for the entire
19 casino versus subletting different restaurants out to
20 different operators. And I ’m looking at the one in my area
21 in Northampton County. Sands Bethworks has three licenses,
22 and just one step down in Luzerne County at the Mohegan
23 Sun, if I count correctly, there are six licenses there.
24 If you’d have one umbrella license, isn’t it possible that
25 you would then dump the rest of those licenses into the 25
1 community, therefore destabilizing the value of liquor
2 licenses for the small business in those communities? I
3 mean if you had six new licenses in Luzerne County, I think
4 it would probably have an adverse impact on the existing
5 licensees, no? Maybe, maybe not?
6 MR. HOLDEN: Well, that was a point made, what
7 you should do with them if you grant a casino license, put
8 it back to the LCB or put it on the open market, but, Skip,
9 you had a comment.
10 MR. BRION: I guess the question is what is the
11 reason for the restaurant licenses and the legislature I
12 would think would have to wrestle with that in a lot of
13 different ways. We actually look at the restaurant
14 licenses going either to casinos -- at least I do -- or to
15 grocery stores in order to sell beer, take them out of the
16 free market -
17 REPRESENTATIVE SCHWEYER: Okay.
18 MR. BRION: -- and making them not available for
19 the reason that I assumed the legislature passed our
20 licenses to begin with, and that is to open up restaurants
21 or taverns to serve the community. So I think it creates a
22 better economic boon if somebody would want to take some of
23 those licenses and utilize them outside of the casino.
24 REPRESENTATIVE SCHWEYER: Except for the existing
25 tavern owners who may be at the point where they're looking 26
1 to sell because w e ’ve heard that from some of our more
2 rural communities that I ’ve heard, and I ’m sure you have as
3 well.
4 MR. BRION: And that could be a fair statement
5 for the rural communities. I think on the average, though,
6 it might be a reasoning to put the licenses back in play.
7 By the same token, if you don’t change the
8 violation sections, I would imagine some of these
9 restaurants have gotten their own R licenses because they
10 don’t want to be tied into a casino license where if there
11 is a suspension of that license -
12 REPRESENTATIVE SCHWEYER: Good point.
13 MR. BRION: -- they are not doing business at
14 that point in time.
15 REPRESENTATIVE SCHWEYER: Good point. Thank you,
16 sir.
17 Thank you, Chairman.
18 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: And I
19 would note for the record that w e ’ve been joined by
20 Representative Regan and ask that he be added to the rolls.
21 And at this point, Representative Kaufer.
22 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 Thank you for indulging me with one more question.
24 One of the things that I heard was that w e ’re
25 trying to do this because of our competition with other 27
1 States, and I ’m just looking for a little bit of
2 clarification that that’s from the Members here or whether
3 that’s from one of our more senior members. But can we
4 limit the people who are drinking 24/7 to the people who
5 might -- I ’m not sure if all of them do but a lot of these
6 casinos have hotels or something in place that they can
7 stay. Is there a way that we can limit it to the people
8 who are actually staying onsite that night? Because if
9 w e ’re trying to do this to be in competition with other
10 States, we don’t want them to get back in their cars and
11 drive back home. I wondering if that’s against our
12 uniformity clause or if anybody has any -- I don’t know so
13 I ’m throwing it out there.
14 MR. HOLDEN: We don’t want them getting in their
15 cars either. I don’t know if we can legally do that but
16 our legal counsel might be able to -
17 MR. DIAZ: You might be able to legally do it;
18 the question is how are you going to enforce it? I mean
19 are you going to say you can purchase a drink after a
20 certain time if you can show that you’re staying there?
21 MR. HOLDEN: Right. Room key?
22 MR. DIAZ: I think it’s less a drafting problem
23 as an enforcement problem.
24 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 And thank you for your testimony today. 28
1 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: And at
2 this point I ’d like to recognize that w e ’ve been joined by
3 Representative Harkins and ask that he be added to the
4 rolls.
5 Representative Masser.
6 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: I know in your testimony
7 you said so many casinos got their license through the
8 Gaming Act as a slot machine when they first, while others
9 got them as regular R licenses. Can you tell me how many
10 fall in each of those categories?
11 MR. HOLDEN: Jerry?
12 MR. WATERS: Representative, they were all
13 licensed under the Casino Act either with a Category 1,
14 Category 2, or Category 3. A Category 1 license would have
15 been a location that had already established racing so it
16 had a racecourse. So Hollywood Casino, Penn National had
17 racing so they would have got a Category 1. A Category 2
18 license would have been a license that either had a
19 racetrack or was free-standing. And then your Category 3
20 license would be a free-standing location.
21 And because my records are a little cut off, I ’m
22 going to defer to counsel, who has that information with
23 regards to the dates in which those licenses were received.
24 Rod.
25 MR. DIAZ: And I was just playing with this while 29
1 I was getting ready for the hearing. Most of the casinos,
2 if you have the chart, acquired their licenses through
3 virtue of their ability to do so under the Gaming Act.
4 There's three or four, as Jerry said. The R's that are
5 kind of lower in number, like, for example, R15046, they
6 did not acquire their license under the Gaming Act because
7 they already had a license. The Liquor Code, prior to the
8 creation of casinos, authorized the issuance of licenses to
9 racetracks, for example. Typically, those licenses were
10 also outside the quota, which meant they didn't purchase
11 them from the marketplace; they acquired them by virtue of
12 being a racetrack.
13 And the issue that we try to point out is the way
14 the Gaming Act is written, you get certain privileges if
15 you acquire the license under those provisions, and what we
16 were trying to point out is that some of these entities
17 already had a license so you've created this dichotomy
18 between those who already had licenses and therefore had no
19 real reason to acquire a new one and those who were
20 acquiring them. But most if not all of these entities
21 acquired their licenses outside the quota. They didn't get
22 it in the marketplace. They came to us, and because of
23 what they were, a racetrack or a casino, we issued them a
24 license.
25 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: Okay. So none of them 30
1 had to go out on the market and buy an existing R license?
2 MR. DIAZ: We can double-check but I ’d be very
3 surprised.
4 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: Okay. Thank you.
5 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Are there
6 any other questions from any of the other Members?
7 I would at this point recognize that w e ’ve been
8 joined by Representative Waters and ask that he be added to
9 the rolls.
10 Seeing none, gentlemen, thank you very much for
11 your testimony. We appreciate it and w e ’ll take this all
12 under advisement.
13 And at this point I ’ll ask that our next panel
14 come up. It’d be Adrian King, Partner at Ballard Spahr;
15 and Joseph Tyrrell, Regional Vice President of Government
16 Relations, Caesars Entertainment Corporation.
17 LIQUOR CONTROL DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN COSTA: While
18 we ’re waiting for the next panel, I wanted to recognize our
19 former Chair of the Liquor Committee. Representative Dante
20 Santoni is here. I also want to remind him that the
21 Pittsburgh Pirates just handed the Cardinals their only
22 series loss of the year.
23 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: After
24 that brief baseball interlude, gentlemen, the floor is
25 yours. 31
1 MR. KING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 Just as an administrative issue, I think we'd
3 like to do this as a combined testimony and hold questions
4 until both of us are concluded if that's okay.
5 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: And for
6 the TV audience, maybe you could each identify yourselves?
7 MR. KING: Sure. Adrian King, Partner at the
8 Ballard Spahr law firm.
9 MR. TYRRELL: Joseph Tyrrell with Caesars
10 Entertainment.
11 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Great.
12 And please keep the mikes as close to you as you can
13 because they don't pick up all that much. Thank you.
14 MR. KING: Yes, sir.
15 Chairman Payne, Chairman Kotik, Chairman Ross,
16 Chairman Costa, Members of the Committees, good morning.
17 My name is Adrian King. I'm a partner in the Philadelphia-
18 based law firm of Ballard Spahr where, among other things,
19 I focus my practice on representing Pennsylvania gaming
20 companies and gaming industry service providers before the
21 Gaming Control Board, and in connection with a variety of
22 gaming-related legislative and regulatory issues.
23 I appear before you today not on behalf of any
24 particular casino but by virtue of my role in helping to
25 draft the March 17, 2015 "Industry Letter" that included 32
1 several proposed initiatives designed to maintain and
2 enhance the health and strength of Pennsylvania’s gaming
3 industry as it faces robust competition from casinos
4 located in every State with a border adjacent to the
5 Commonwealth.
6 As you’re all aware, and the reason why you are
7 engaged in this joint hearing this morning, one of the
8 proposed initiatives contained in the March 17th letter
9 concerns authorizing casinos to engage in 24-hour alcoholic
10 beverage service or extended flexible hours of service.
11 And as we dig into this topic, let me be clear about one
12 thing: This initiative is not about Pennsylvania’s casinos
13 seeking to have any sort of competitive advantage over
14 Pennsylvania’s restaurants, taverns, and bars. It’s not
15 about that at all.
16 Rather, this initiative is about Pennsylvania’s
17 casinos remaining as attractive as possible to gaming
18 patrons so that those gaming patrons choose to keep their
19 business in Pennsylvania and not travel to the 49 -- and
20 again, I want to emphasize 49 -- casinos that now are
21 located in every bordering competitor State such as New
22 Jersey or Maryland where 24-hour alcoholic beverage service
23 is available. And make no mistake, experience demonstrates
24 that when alcoholic beverage service concludes, patrons
25 leave and gaming activity suffers a precipitous decline. 33
1 In my testimony this morning, I will provide the
2 Committees with key data points regarding the gaming
3 industry’s significant contributions to Pennsylvania’s
4 economy and the Commonwealth’s tax revenue. More
5 specifically, with this data in hand, I hope to establish
6 why it is so important for your Committees to look at the
7 alcoholic beverage service issue carefully and to
8 thereafter take appropriate action designed to keep
9 Pennsylvania’s gaming industry as competitive as possible
10 when compared to casino facilities in other jurisdictions.
11 And following my portion of the gaming industry
12 presentation, Mr. Tyrrell will provide the Committees with
13 more detailed information about alcoholic beverage service
14 in casinos generally, how casinos ensure that alcoholic
15 beverages are consumed responsibly, and how alcoholic
16 beverage service relates to gaming revenue, and by
17 extension, gaming tax revenue.
18 The Pennsylvania General Assembly can be
19 justifiably proud of the robust economic engine that it
20 helped create in 2004 with the passage of the Race Horse
21 Development and Gaming Act. The General Assembly set lofty
22 goals for the economic impact of casinos in the
23 Commonwealth, and working together, the Commonwealth and
24 gaming industry have met and, in some cases, exceeded those
25 goals. 34
1 Pennsylvania’s first casinos opened in 2006, and
2 in just eight years the gaming industry has accomplished
3 the following noteworthy achievements:
4 First, the industry directly employed 17,768
5 people across the Commonwealth, of which 31 percent are
6 minorities, 43 percent are women. That’s based on 2014
7 statistics.
8 The industry has contributed $9.2 billion in
9 gaming tax revenue to the Commonwealth’s coffers during the
10 period 2006 through February of this year.
11 The industry has attained the highest amount of
12 gaming tax revenue as compared to any other State in the
13 Nation with legalized gaming. For example, in 2012,
14 Pennsylvania’s casinos generated $1.4 billion in gaming tax
15 revenue. Nevada was second with $868 million.
16 The industry attained the second-highest amount
17 of combined slot and table gaming revenue nationally, $3.16
18 billion -- that’s 2012 numbers -- and only Nevada had a
19 greater amount of combined gaming revenue of $10.86
20 billion, again, 2012 numbers. And as you recall, we
21 surpassed New Jersey.
22 And finally, the industry spent more than $1.18
23 billion on non-construction goods and services during the
24 period July 1, 2011, through June 30, 2014, including more
25 than $602 million -- that’s almost 51 percent -- paid to 35
1 local businesses located in the same county or a contiguous
2 county to a casino.
3 Now, despite these impressive statistics, the
4 continued success of Pennsylvania’s gaming industry is at
5 significant risk. While the Commonwealth was a beneficiary
6 of an unsaturated regional market in 2006, the competitive
7 landscape in 2015 is very, very different. Every State
8 with a border adjacent to Pennsylvania -- that’s Delaware,
9 Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, and West Virginia -
10 has legalized and/or expanded gaming since 2006. And
11 whereas in 2006, including Pennsylvania’s casinos, there
12 were 32 casinos in Pennsylvania the six border States.
13 Today, in 2015, there are 61 casinos. That’s a nearly 91
14 percent increase, with that number projected to reach 67 in
15 2019.
16 Now, the result of this increased competition is
17 predictable, decreasing gaming tax revenue over the past
18 two years. And since achieving the record high total of
19 more than $1.4 billion in gaming tax revenue in 2012,
20 gaming tax revenue slipped to $1.38 billion in 2013 and
21 further dipped to 1.32 billion in 2014.
22 Declining gaming revenue, and with the consequent
23 effects on gaming tax revenue, can be attributed to two
24 factors: First, a near full recapture of Pennsylvania
25 gamers who had previously had been traveling to out-of 36
1 state casinos, for example, to New Jersey and Atlantic
2 City; and secondly, the loss of out-of-state gaming patrons
3 from neighboring States such as Ohio and Maryland who
4 previously had been providing significant revenue at
5 Pennsylvania casinos.
6 Now, in order to reverse the Pennsylvania gaming
7 industry’s negative trend, it is imperative that the
8 General Assembly take those actions, including the proposed
9 initiative we are discussing this morning, that will
10 protect the Commonwealth’s casinos from further competition
11 and increase the attractiveness of the Commonwealth’s
12 casinos to both in and out-of-state gaming patrons alike.
13 Over the last nine years, the industry has
14 delivered and the Commonwealth has enjoyed an impressive
15 track record of billions in tax revenue, billions in
16 facility investment and associated economic development
17 spinoff, and thousands of jobs. The advent of intense
18 competition in every direction, however, necessitates that
19 the Commonwealth and the industry do things differently and
20 more efficiently if success is to continue. And one need
21 only look at Atlantic City to see what can occur when
22 market changes and increased competition are ignored.
23 Thank you for your attention and consideration of
24 my testimony. And now, I ’ll turn the microphone over to
25 Mr. Tyrrell for his portion of the presentation. 37
1 MR. TYRRELL: Thank you, Chairman Ross. Thank
2 you, Chairman Payne, Chairman Kotik, and Chairman Costa.
3 My name is Joseph Tyrrell. I am the Regional Vice
4 President for Government Relations for Caesars
5 Entertainment Operating Company, and we operate Harrah's
6 Philadelphia in Delaware County in the City of Chester,
7 Pennsylvania.
8 Just quickly, I know that the Members on the
9 House Gaming Oversight Committee have visited our property
10 and have had a tour of our facility, but just for the folks
11 on Liquor Control Committee, if you can just indulge me
12 quickly just to talk about what our property looks like
13 now, understand what kind of gaming destination facility we
14 have, and our local impact we have to not only the City of
15 Chester, Delaware County, but also to the Commonwealth of
16 Pennsylvania.
17 And I'll go through some industry standards, as
18 well as some of the responsible gaming commitments we
19 follow through with at our property and other casino
20 properties in the Commonwealth, also talk about alcohol
21 awareness because of our training for employees, how we
22 take that seriously, and also talk about the regional
23 competitiveness, which was just briefly touched on and come
24 up with some regulatory recommendations.
25 Real quick, at Harrah's Philadelphia, we made a 38
1 promise when we came to the Commonwealth once the Gaming
2 Act was passed in 2004. Just as an overview, we converted
3 a 64-acre brownfield site, the old Sun Shipbuilding plant
4 in Chester, Pennsylvania. It's a 200,000 square foot
5 multilevel casino, racing, convention center, and
6 restaurant complex with a world-class harness track with
7 $470 million invested capital at the property.
8 Other major accomplishments, we have 2.2 billion
9 in gross gaming revenue since opening with over 33 million
10 visitors. Over 1,400 jobs have been created and 1.6
11 million in charitable contributions. So our property alone
12 since we've opened we've generated 1.4 billion in taxes to
13 the Commonwealth and to local entities. And as an economic
14 driver to the City of Chester, we've generated over $100
15 million of local revenue and $100 million to Delaware
16 County as a separate entity.
17 So let's talk about harness and also the promise
18 that we kept to the racing industry because we understand
19 that's the purpose of why gaming was really brought to the
20 Commonwealth. Harness racing contributions to the
21 horseracing Development Fund has been over $261 million.
22 The Harness Association fees are 18 million and the
23 pari-mutuel taxes we've paid are 4.5 million. The racing
24 operations alone are 70 plus jobs, including affiliated
25 vendors, and we race 150 live racing days per year with 11 39
1 world records since opening and dedicated races for
2 PA-sired and -owned horses. The average daily purses are
3 around $200,000 daily purses per day.
4 And w e ’re the only PA track system with a handle
5 growth, which is very important to know because there are
6 differences between Category 1, 2, and 3 casinos. We are
7 Category 1 because we operate a racetrack and w e ’re the
8 only one with a system handle growth from our account
9 wagering, and that’s really due to our online wagering
10 experience for horseracing. And that’s up 60 percent in
11 2014.
12 Just to kind of briefly go over that 1.4 billion
13 of taxes paid, where it went in the breakdown on page 4 of
14 the PowerPoint quickly. Obviously of the 1.4 billion to
15 the Commonwealth w e ’ve paid from just slot machines $750
16 million; 255 million to the racehorse Development Fund;
17 Economic Development Fund, 110 million; which is really
18 important because people look at casinos as being these
19 regional destinations but are truly a local partner with
20 Delaware County and the City of Chester where we have local
21 sheriffs, which is required under the Gaming Act but we
22 also have a land lease assessment with the county and the
23 city and we enjoy that with paying also a portion of that
24 fund of our gaming revenue to the county and the city of
25 $88 million just for the slots portion. 40
1 On the next slide, we go through the table game
2 economic impact very similar to the slots and a similar
3 breakdown to both the State, the county, and local
4 entities, and that’s where the compilation, the 1.4 billion
5 of taxes paid based on gaming generation, and obviously
6 we ’re horseracing.
7 Also, keeping the promise to the Commonwealth, we
8 are a large purchaser of local and Pennsylvania products.
9 Our spend from Harrah’s Philadelphia is 27.4 million in
10 state spend in 2014. We also have a county spend of 8.5
11 million. Also, we have a $3.2 million spend just in the
12 City of Philadelphia. And we have $1 million spend in
13 Chester, which we are improving on every day. I know some
14 of those numbers may look paltry to some other casino
15 operators but we are putting an effort to increase that
16 local spend because we are community partners and we are
17 partners with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. We also
18 have a 25 percent increase in in-state spend from 2014 and
19 an 18 percent spend with minority and women-owned
20 businesses in fiscal year ’13 and ’14.
21 So looking at the economic impact through the
22 sustained employment, at Harrah’s Philadelphia when we
23 opened, we opened with 1,123 employees, which grew to
24 1,442. W e ’ve paid in wages over $275 million since
25 opening. And we also have a very generous benefits program 41
1 for health and dental benefits, which are also part of our
2 package to our employees.
3 We also have a commitment to our community: 53
4 percent of our employees are minorities, 43 percent are
5 female, 39 percent of our supervisors are minorities, 38
6 percent of our professional positions are held by women,
7 and 43 percent of our employees are from Delaware County.
8 Even though w e ’re right on the border of Delaware and New
9 Jersey, 75 percent of our employees are Pennsylvania
10 residents. And 40 percent of our team members are union-
11 affiliated.
12 Just real briefly, we do make charitable
13 contributions in our community. Those are the list of
14 folks. I don’t want to prolong the hearing. I want to
15 just get through the PowerPoint quickly, Chairman, if it’s
16 okay, to get to the heart of what we are here for.
17 Just real quick, gaming is a very adult business
18 and we take responsible gaming very seriously at Harrah’s
19 Philadelphia, and this is coupled with why w e ’re talking
20 about liquor control and why gaming is part of this
21 business. And if we don’t handle responsible gaming,
22 you’re not going to really have a good enforcement of
23 liquor laws and making sure underage minors are not
24 participating in the process.
25 And there are some nuances that we can talk about 42
1 a little bit down the road about this, but to address
2 responsible gaming, the procedures that are designed to
3 prevent underage gaming are very similar to the procedure
4 w e ’ve designed to prevent underage drinking.
5 Identification is required from all persons who enter to be
6 younger than the age of 30; 2,500 to 3,000 patrons are
7 turned away each year for failure to produce proper
8 identification. Wristbands are used to identify patrons
9 who have been carded and provided adequate identification;
10 signage at each entrance stating no one under the age of 21
11 is permitted.
12 Traffic flow directs patrons from two points at
13 our facility of the entry of security officers being
14 present. So at our facility you have to go through two
15 entrances. There’s no other way to get in. There’s no six
16 or seven entrances. You have to come through the main
17 porte-cochere or through our parking garage and you have
18 security greeting you coming through that facility. So
19 everyone is carded when they come through the door.
20 Each point of entry is equipped with electronic
21 identification verification systems to scan and determine
22 the validity of a patron’s identification, which is very
23 different than what you see at local bars and taverns.
24 This is a larger facility with surveillance, own security
25 staff, millions of dollars of investment. Plus we have 43
1 State Police on site, and also to mention that Harrah's
2 Philadelphia, we are located right on the Delaware River
3 next to Chester State Correctional Facility.
4 To talk about Harrah's Philadelphia, we have an
5 Alcohol Awareness Program for all our employees. We're all
6 required to go through the training. Two points: We are
7 part of Controlling Alcohol Risk Effectively, which is
8 called CARE. Caesars Entertainment provides alcohol
9 awareness training to educate our staff about their role in
10 preventing underage drinking and overconsumption. The CARE
11 program is effective for two years and refreshed
12 biannually.
13 And also, we are part of the State program, a
14 Responsible Alcohol Management Program, RAMP, and Harrah's
15 Philadelphia also complies with the Pennsylvania State-
16 mandated Alcohol training required for employees that
17 directly serves alcohol and their leaders. RAMP is
18 effective for two years and refreshed biannually as well.
19 Just to briefly talk about casino industry
20 alcohol policies because there a lot of misconceptions
21 about casino operations throughout the country, whether you
22 think what happens in Nevada or Atlantic City. There's a
23 longstanding service to our customers and casinos offer
24 low-cost or free drinks depending on State regulations.
25 Some customers choose nonalcoholic beverages while others 44
1 choose to drink alcoholic beverages.
2 The gaming industry is committed to safe and
3 responsible consumption of alcoholic beverages, and it has
4 extensive policies and programs to protect the safety of
5 customers and the community while still allowing adults to
6 drink responsibly.
7 Just facts about the casino industry policies.
8 Not all casinos provide free alcohol to their customers.
9 Of the 23 States with commercial casino gaming, casinos in
10 only 13 -- Colorado, Florida, Iowa, Louisiana, Michigan,
11 Mississippi, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania,
12 Rhode Island, South Dakota, and West Virginia -- are
13 permitted to offer free alcohol to their patrons. However,
14 even though they can offer free alcohol, not all casinos in
15 those States do. Casinos in other States must charge for
16 alcoholic beverages, and this is all part of the AGA Code
17 of Conduct, Responsible Gaming, which includes provisions
18 for alcohol.
19 The vast majority of guests consume alcohol
20 responsibly or choose not to drink at all. Avid casino
21 players -- this is what w e ’re talking about; the difference
22 between casinos and bars and taverns -- avid casino players
23 like to be on top of their game and therefore avoid
24 consumption of alcohol. They know that some alcohol can
25 hurt the senses, so most avid players limit their 45
1 consumption.
2 Patrons come to casinos for an overall
3 entertainment experience, not for free drinks. They're
4 there to be entertained whether it be the dining, the
5 shopping, the other live entertainment events and a true
6 entertainment experience. It's not the draw of why people
7 come to a casino with entertainment or dealing with the
8 fine dining.
9 Like other liquor-license holders, casinos,
10 companies adhere to strict policies regarding alcohol
11 service. Most casinos have implemented voluntary
12 responsible alcohol service programs such as TIPS, which is
13 Training for Intervention Procedures, or required by a
14 State to adhere to such programs which include intoxication
15 recognition training, as well as ongoing employee awareness
16 training and certification.
17 The combination of regulatory requirements with
18 company programs are in place to prevent customers who are
19 visibly intoxicated from entering or remaining in a casino
20 from being served more alcohol. The gaming industry
21 understands the dangers of drinking and driving and
22 recognizes its responsibilities to address the issue.
23 Casino employees are trained to encourage those customers
24 who are obviously impaired to take a cab or ride with a
25 designated driver. If an impaired guest insists on 46
1 driving, personnel are trained to involve local police.
2 Studies show that the presence at casinos does not generate
3 corresponding increase in vehicular accidents caused by
4 drunk driving.
5 The responsible service of alcohol, including
6 cutting off people who appear to be intoxicated, it’s not
7 only the right thing to do but it makes the best business
8 sense as well. Intoxicated patrons are not good customers.
9 There is no evidence that they spend more money, and they
10 spoil the experience for other patrons.
11 Like other establishments that serve alcohol,
12 casinos are businesses that provide safe and responsible
13 goods and services that customers want.
14 Now, I want to talk briefly about our regional
15 competitors. I know Adrian touched on it briefly but since
16 the passage of the Act in ’04, New Jersey and Connecticut
17 were the only two real jurisdictions involved in gaming and
18 obviously proliferation of casino gaming in Ohio, West
19 Virginia obviously, and Maryland and Delaware have all
20 expanded their gaming options.
21 And in Atlantic City we all know that they offer
22 24-hour alcoholic beverage service, but the State of New
23 Jersey also allows alcoholic beverage service until 2:00
24 a.m. They allowed a special exemption just for Atlantic
25 City because of the revenue that was generated in Atlantic 47
1 City for their State budget for seniors and disabled
2 programs there. And in some larger cities they expand
3 their beverage service until 3:00 a.m.
4 Maryland, they also have a similar rule but it
5 allows 24-hour alcoholic beverage service at its casinos
6 and they allow local authorities to regulate their hours of
7 service.
8 New York, which is a large competitor for the
9 Northeast properties, they have beverage service until 4:00
10 a.m. Ohio, which is a little bit longer than Pennsylvania,
11 until 2:30. And the other States, regionally they are
12 considering expanding their alcohol service as well.
13 And also note under the PA Liquor Code, licensure
14 for clubs and catering club liquor licenses are private in
15 fraternal organizations, but they’re allowed to serve until
16 3:00 a.m. and make sure all the unfinished drinks are
17 collected by 3:30. So we do have a small policy in this
18 State obviously for private entities and private clubs, but
19 they’re allowed to serve until 3:00.
20 And obviously we talked a little bit about
21 extended the PA sales here to end at 2:00 a.m., and casinos
22 can’t serve alcohol after 2:00, which is consistent with
23 the closing times in Pennsylvania taverns. Some casinos,
24 particularly those in urban areas, report a sharp decline
25 in patronage at 2:00 a.m. as gamers leave the facility. 48
1 Other casinos in locations where most customers have left
2 by 2:00 anyway have decided for business purposes they do
3 not want to serve alcohol after 2:00 a.m. So it’s really a
4 business decision based on your location property. Whether
5 you’re in a rural area or an urban area, these are real
6 business decisions on whether or not to decide to keep
7 serving because of the dense population or the type of
8 customers that come in after 2:00 a.m.
9 Alcohol in Pennsylvania is completely controlled
10 by the Liquor Control Board, and by the statutes in the
11 Gaming Act, any Pennsylvania casino is considered a
12 restaurant establishment for the purposes of the Liquor
13 Control Board. Casinos therefore must stop any alcohol
14 sales at 2:00 a.m. This regulatory model is not the most
15 commonly taken approach among States with casinos. For
16 almost every State, the requirements and rules governing
17 alcohol sales in casinos are specific to casinos. In
18 Maryland, Mississippi, Louisiana, for instance, casinos
19 have no last call, though most of their establishments are
20 required to stop serving alcohol at certain times.
21 And last year, the Pennsylvania Senate
22 Legislative Budget and Finance Committee had a report in
23 2014 and compared States with 24-hour drinking laws as this
24 likely reduces the demand for casino gaming in
25 Pennsylvania. And the Senate study really took the 49
1 regulatory impact and how it impacts revenues. And when
2 you have restricted alcohol sales at 2:00 a.m., the
3 increased demand for gross gaming revenue, that piece of
4 the tax will help grow revenue based through the gross
5 gaming revenue funds that are required under the Gaming
6 Act. So expanding liquor laws will help grow revenues
7 responsibly.
8 And I think from the industry positions that
9 Adrian addressed earlier, the industry has kind of met and
10 I ’ll walk you through expanded alcohol service. And in
11 order to make our facilities more attractive to gaming
12 patrons -- and that’s very important, gaming patrons versus
13 regular bar and tavern customers in your neighborhood bars
14 versus what people go to these casinos as destinations for
15 entertainment and other amenities. And looking for
16 adjustments in the Liquor Code, and we seek authorization
17 for either 24-hour service or extended flexible hours of
18 service. In addition, we seek to authorize and provide
19 complementary drinks to patrons regardless of whether
20 they’re engaged in gaming or not.
21 Now, also, from Caesars’ perspective, w e ’ve
22 noticed some other issues around the country. And
23 currently the Liquor Control Board has jurisdiction of the
24 sale and service of alcohol of properties, and as
25 legislators who draft legislation, we know there’s a 50
1 quagmire of regulatory processes we all have to go through.
2 And having two bodies that regulate our industry, obviously
3 Liquor Control and Gaming Enforcement, streamlining one
4 body to regulate is much simpler to go through the quagmire
5 of the 70 plus rules of alcohol and gaming regs. So we'd
6 like greater flexibility within that and maybe the Gaming
7 Control Board could have purview over issuing liquor
8 licenses. I know that's a different Pandora's Box but it's
9 a suggestion and an opinion.
10 And what's also under the Liquor Code, even bars
11 and taverns have the same problem of having sponsorship
12 opportunities between the license-holder and vendors or
13 large brands, so getting someone like Yuengling to sponsor
14 an event at the casino or a bar and tavern is prohibited
15 under current Liquor Code law.
16 And we're also looking for greater flexibility to
17 offer differentiated prices and special unique outlets. So
18 as described before how the umbrella license for one casino
19 but there are actually four or five different licenses per
20 casino meaning one restaurant may have one license versus
21 the overall casino, some of the regs require us, if we have
22 a special on, let's say, Yuengling Light, we have to offer
23 that Yuengling Light special throughout the entire property
24 under the current Liquor Code. Where we see these are
25 drivers that drive customers around the property whether 51
1 they go to a retail experience or a restaurant experience
2 or a gaming experience or entertainment experience,
3 applying that price point for the entire property becomes
4 counterintuitive of driving people to drive new revenue in
5 other parts of the property. So we seek more of a uniform
6 system of regulation and enforcement.
7 So thank you for allowing me that long
8 presentation, and Adrian and I would be happy to take any
9 questions.
10 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Thank
11 you, gentlemen.
12 And I wanted to recognize that we've been joined
13 by Representative Knowles and also by Representative Mustio
14 and ask that they be added to the rolls. I think we might
15 have been joined by Representative Knowles and then maybe
16 he left.
17 I'm going to ask a quick question if you don't
18 mind. Mr. Tyrrell, on page 13 of your testimony you make a
19 persuasive case for not needing any more liquor
20 availability.
21 MR. TYRRELL: On page 13?
22 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Yes.
23 None of the gamblers really like to drink and that they
24 want to keep their head clear -
25 MR. TYRRELL: Right. 52
1 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: — be at
2 the top of their game.
3 MR. TYRRELL: Some patrons do.
4 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Why do
5 you need more liquor?
6 MR. TYRRELL: Well, it’s not about needing more
7 liquor. I think it’s offering patrons their options
8 because when we have sales at 2:00 a.m. and customers who
9 travel from Baltimore or Atlantic City or New York City
10 have other experiences at their States where they can play
11 and keep continuing.
12 In an area where we represent in southeast
13 Pennsylvania, we have a lot of shift-workers from
14 Philadelphia Airport. Their happy hour is at 3:00 a.m.
15 when they get off shift or at the Boeing plant. These are
16 regular hardworking people who want to go places to be
17 entertained where other facilities in maybe more the
18 central part of the State may not want expanded hours. But
19 it’s really a case-by-case decision and patrons should have
20 the options where they had the experience in Maryland or
21 New Jersey or New York to get expanded liquor sales.
22 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Fair
23 enough. I just did want to mention that they did appear to
24 be consuming alcohol or otherwise you wouldn’t be here in
25 the first place. 53
1 Okay. I believe, let’s see, Representative
2 Mustio, you had a question?
3 REPRESENTATIVE MUSTIO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 Mr. King, I guess my questions are going to be
5 centered around your sentence where you say "Despite these
6 impressive statistics, the continued success of
7 Pennsylvania’s gaming industry is at significant risk." On
8 page 15 of Mr. Tyrrell’s testimony, he lists the
9 neighboring States and their hours of operation from an
10 alcohol service standpoint, and it looks to me like
11 Pennsylvania is relatively competitive with a majority of
12 those States. Could both of you maybe give me an
13 explanation of the Maryland law. They allow it but it’s
14 local jurisdictions. So are the local jurisdictions
15 permitting it and where are those casinos located?
16 MR. TYRRELL: In Maryland there are six licensed
17 casino facilities. In their Gaming Act they required a
18 24-hour beverage service. I mean Maryland just enacted
19 gaming -
20 REPRESENTATIVE MUSTIO: Required or are they
21 permitted?
22 MR. TYRRELL: They permit it. Excuse me. They
23 permit it.
24 REPRESENTATIVE MUSTIO: Right —
25 MR. TYRRELL: And also with regard to the local 54
1 jurisdiction meaning whether the casino is located in
2 National Harbor or Baltimore, local jurisdiction would take
3 precedence. But the State of Maryland allows 24-hour
4 beverage service.
5 REPRESENTATIVE MUSTIO: So do the local
6 jurisdictions permit it?
7 MR. TYRRELL: Yes.
8 REPRESENTATIVE MUSTIO: Okay. So they’re
9 permitted everywhere then?
10 MR. KING: If I could just add one observation, I
11 think that to some degree this is an issue that right now
12 is certainly more important or prevalent on the eastern
13 part of the State, but those are your highest-performing
14 casinos in the State. And you have the border States of
15 New Jersey and of Maryland they’re allowing 24-hour
16 service. New York certainly is longer at 4:00 a.m.
17 There’s a possibility, although Joe’s company would
18 probably not be too happy, but you may end up with more
19 casinos in north Jersey.
20 And so I think it’s an issue that’s more
21 important in the eastern part of the State. We certainly
22 have these other jurisdictions that are allowing longer
23 hours, and that really I think sums it up to some degree.
24 REPRESENTATIVE MUSTIO: And just to follow up, I
25 guess my confusion is, so we pass legislation, we permit it 55
1 in Pennsylvania, we do what you’re asking; it’s just hard
2 for me to wrap my head around the fact that if w e ’re going
3 to allow 24-hour alcoholic beverage consumption, that
4 that’s going to be preventing us from being at significant
5 risk. It seems to me that once every other State capital
6 in the neighboring States is permitting it and w e ’re on
7 equal footing, it seems to me that there’s something else
8 that’s creating that significant risk for us.
9 MR. TYRRELL: And I ’d be happy to provide if we
10 could provide you with a copy of our entire letter, I mean
11 there are numerous issues that we are addressing as risks
12 and other issues that could enhance competition. This is
13 one of those issues. This is not the issue.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MUSTIO: thank you.
15 MR. TYRRELL: But it is one of the issues.
16 REPRESENTATIVE MUSTIO: That’s fine. Thank you.
17 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS:
18 Representative Kaufer.
19 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 I have several questions and I apologize but I -
21 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: One at a
22 time. Other people are here.
23 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: I will try to be brief,
24 but -
25 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Just take 56
1 them one at a time, one subject at a time.
2 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: Absolutely. Thank you.
3 And my first one is you mentioned in our
4 Legislative Budget and Finance Committee that there will be
5 an increase in taxes, a tax increase. Do you have any
6 percentage or dollar amount that w e ’re talking about that
7 this would generate?
8 MR. TYRRELL: I believe the Senate report was
9 saying that, compared to other gaming States that offer 24-
10 hour gaming -- and part of that study also addressed
11 smoking, which I do not want to raise at this hearing -
12 that States that offer 24-hour gaming have higher revenues
13 in part because of how customers are based and where those
14 customers are located and how the operations generally run.
15 I mentioned about us being in southeast Pennsylvania; we
16 have a higher population density where workers work shift
17 hours.
18 And the Econosult study that was done for the
19 Senate Finance Committee made the recommendation of
20 expanding hours; you will increase our revenues, which
21 obviously we have a 55 percent slot tax, a 12 percent table
22 game tax, plus w e ’re putting sales tax on top of the
23 alcoholic beverages w e ’re serving. That increased sales
24 will also increase those taxes and revenues. That’s what
25 they referred it to. 57
1 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: I guess because there are
2 examples out there that I guess there are case studies that
3 we can look at, whether it's New Jersey or Maryland, to see
4 in the year that it's been implemented what the changes
5 would be because I did a quick little research as we were
6 talking here. At Mohegan Sun, which is my closest casino,
7 that when we offered during gaming free comped beer or
8 comped beverages, draft beer consumption grew at 350
9 percent. We had a daily average of 393 draft beers shot up
10 to 1,422 average daily. And obviously some of that
11 drinking is because it's free and people are already gaming
12 and some of it's got to be from people who are coming to
13 game because it's free. So there is certainly a balance
14 between the two.
15 And I guess my question is this was just enacted
16 in 2013 this came into play, the free comps. And when we
17 were there we were talking about drinking for free when
18 gaming; now we're talking for free when not gaming,
19 drinking 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and I guess the
20 question I'm getting at is what should the bars and taverns
21 expect because they expect fair and equal treatment under
22 the law? And when is enough, enough? Representative
23 Mustio kind of brought my question that, Mr. King, you
24 asked Pennsylvania's gaming industry is at significant
25 risk. Will this really reduce that risk that we're talking 58
1 about? Will this generate this revenue that will make us
2 more competitive?
3 MR. KING: Well, I think a couple things. With
4 all due respect to the restaurants and bars and taverns,
5 and I acknowledge they will disagree, you know, we really
6 don't see them as being our competitors. The competitors
7 are the casinos in the other States, the 49 that I
8 mentioned.
9 Look, you raise very valid points. They're
10 policy points and there's a balancing act that the General
11 Assembly needs to consider. As I mentioned, this is but
12 one of a list, and what I'd like to do is to provide your
13 Executive Director, at least to the Liquor Committee, with
14 a copy of the letter so you can see it in its totality.
15 At the end of the day it's a business decision.
16 It's a policy decision. The way we set up this act in 2004
17 provides a 55 percent tax rate on slots. There's a lower
18 rate on tables obviously. It is sending significant tax
19 dollars to the Commonwealth. It is in everyone's interest,
20 both the State, the Commonwealth, and the operators for
21 these facilities to continue to be as competitive as they
22 can be against the other competitive States.
23 The General Assembly got it right in 2004.
24 Pennsylvania got into this early. The tax rate was
25 aggressive but it has worked. And as you saw in my 59
1 numbers, it is the highest amount of tax revenue in the
2 country. You have surpassed New Jersey.
3 So it’s a decision to be made both sort of from a
4 tax business perspective and from all the very legitimate
5 policy issues that you bring up.
6 Our job in terms of representing clients or our
7 employers is to simply say these are issues that you need
8 to look at if you want to help this industry remain
9 competitive. And while maybe it’s a small math problem
10 between 1.4 billion and 1.3 billion, but as that continues
11 to whittle down, if it does, that’s going to be another
12 problem or issue for the General Assembly to address.
13 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: And I have just one more
14 question, Mr. Chairman, if -
15 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Well,
16 I ’ve got a couple other Members that want to -- but w e ’ll
17 come back to you at the end for the second round.
18 Representative Klunk.
19 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us today.
21 One of my questions was actually was
22 Representative Kaufer had, but my other question was
23 related to the number of customers who actually consume
24 alcohol. You guys know your customers better than I do.
25 How many people really truly partake in alcohol while 60
1 they’re there? And then once they’ve partaken in alcohol
2 -- a two-part question -- do most casinos have a program -
3 you mentioned about cabs and other designated driver
4 programs. What do most casinos do? I ’m sure in urban
5 areas you have the cabs but in more rural areas what do
6 those casinos do to make sure that those patrons actually
7 get home safely?
8 MR. TYRRELL: I can only speak on Caesars and
9 Harrah’s Philadelphia experience. You’re right because we
10 are in more of an urban area where we have mass transit, we
11 have SEPTA, and we have local taxi companies that we vendor
12 with if we have those patrons who require a ride home. And
13 then we also have customers who refuse and we have to work
14 with local police to make sure the community is safe before
15 they leave that door. And there are ambassadors who have
16 to interrupt service whether they’re intoxicated to make
17 sure they’re not playing over their head or before they
18 grab their car keys.
19 So every property is different and I can’t really
20 comment about how, let’s say, Penn National or Hollywood
21 Casino would respond or Sands or Mount Airy or Erie for
22 that matter. But we all know that in our competitive
23 borders, when I talk about Harrah’s Philadelphia, they’re
24 almost 23 plus casinos in a two-hour drive of our facility,
25 and folks have the options of traveling where they feel 61
1 comfortable or knowing where if I get off shift work I ’m
2 going to be able to go enjoy myself after working a hard
3 shift.
4 And we have to I think be flexible in this policy
5 in order to stay competitive, and obviously when you look
6 at a State like New York is a good example where Mount Airy
7 or Erie, those properties are aggressively trying to market
8 customers to stay and play. And New York is offering that
9 same experience.
10 So each operator has a responsibility. Obviously
11 we have to, one, be vigilant with making sure customers are
12 safe and making sure the games are playing with your head
13 and over your head and that’s a very important part of how
14 you’re supposed to have a controlled gaming environment
15 versus a bar and tavern where if someone drinks over their
16 head, who’s going to be stopping that person? It’s usually
17 the server or the owner of that establishment. And w e ’re
18 very similar in that regard.
19 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: And I guess to my question
20 of approximately how many of your customers actually
21 partake in the alcohol?
22 MR. TYRRELL: I don’t have a number because there
23 are customers who drink coffee all night and play. The
24 beverage service is not really quantified by how many
25 drinks -- I could have a number for you because if I gave 62
1 you a number that was higher in the summertime versus in
2 the spring, that average number, I would say roughly it’d
3 be north of 55 percent of our customers have an alcoholic
4 beverage.
5 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: Thank you.
6 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Chairman
7 Costa.
8 LIQUOR CONTROL DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN COSTA: Thank
9 you, Mr. Chairman.
10 Gentlemen, thank you for being here. We
11 appreciate your information.
12 Mr. King, you mentioned -- and actually,
13 Mr. Tyrrell, you mentioned it also -- that you stated "Make
14 no mistake; experience demonstrates that when alcoholic
15 beverage service concludes, patrons leave and gaming
16 activity suffers." I would assume because it’s two o ’clock
17 in the morning in Pennsylvania. People get tired and they
18 go home. Do you have statistics of just Pennsylvania and
19 other States around us like the drop-off as the day gets
20 later and later? So maybe it’s just a coincidence that the
21 alcohol was shut off and it has nothing to do with -- it’s
22 just the hour of the day?
23 MR. KING: Well, I know that I can follow up with
24 you and I can submit some actual hard data from a
25 particular property. 63
1 LIQUOR CONTROL DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN COSTA: And if
2 you could get us the surrounding States -
3 MR. KING: Sure.
4 LIQUOR CONTROL DEMOCRATIC CHAIRMAN COSTA:
5 -- what their drop-off is. Thank you very much.
6 MR. KING: Yes.
7 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS:
8 Representative Masser.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: What time does alcohol
10 service have to stop now?
11 MR. TYRRELL: 2:00 a.m.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: 2:00?
13 MR. TYRRELL: Yes.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: So you’re not like a club
15 where it’s 3:00?
16 MR. TYRRELL: No.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: 2:00. One of my
18 colleagues asked earlier, what do you say about those folks
19 who are in bars now are going to venture over to your clubs
20 after that closing time if they know if this is expanded to
21 24 hours, if you have a nearby bar where you’re only at
22 about 1:30 and you head over to the casino because they’re
23 not closed?
24 MR. TYRRELL: I can’t comment about what a
25 customer or a patron would decide because there’s an 64
1 expanded service. What we've noticed is that when
2 customers know that, oh, when I played in Baltimore, I was
3 allowed to play and continue consuming beverages but in
4 Pennsylvania I wasn't allowed, these are -- gaming
5 customers are much different than bar and tavern customers.
6 It's based on regional experience because I don't know how
7 many bar and taverns are surrounding the Penn National area
8 or the Erie property.
9 In our experience in Chester, there are really
10 not too many establishments down the road. I think Gin's
11 Bar and Tavern down the road from us, they have a robust
12 business for the locals market. I can't really comment on
13 it because I don't have real data to show that.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: It was stated earlier, I
15 mean taverns aren't real [inaudible] -
16 MR. TYRRELL: Yes. Okay.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: -- far enough away from
18 the industry that could lose some to the industry that come
19 down to gamble that otherwise before the gaming was enacted
20 wouldn't have left my establishment. I mean you really are
21 -- I mean you have other venues within your gaming
22 establishment that offer the exact same thing that I do at
23 my establishment, be it entertainment, a band, table
24 service, food, the exact same thing, and they might not be
25 coming for gaming. I mean I've gone to establishments 65
1 before to see a band at a casino. [inaudible].
2 So while you might not view it as competition, I
3 would venture to say those folks who are in closer
4 proximity definitely would see it as competition, and
5 competition that really -- because you allow smoking, you
6 can allow free or reduced drinks, again, naturally is
7 something that they can’t offer, and now extended hours to
8 be put on top of that.
9 So I think, as we progress with this, we have to
10 look at it as the taverns who will be looking for equity.
11 As we progress with these thoughts, I think everybody’s
12 okay with -- me as a business owner, I ’m okay with
13 competition as long as we can play by some equitable rules.
14 As we progress, I think we have to look at equity
15 [inaudible]. So thank you for your testimony.
16 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Did you
17 want to respond? You look like you’re about to say
18 something.
19 MR. TYRRELL: I respectfully disagree with the
20 Representative because the Commonwealth created the Gaming
21 Act and created these licensures of running racetrack
22 facilities. And we are basically helping the horseracing
23 industry survive in agriculture areas. And our tax
24 structure is completely different than a bar and tavern tax
25 structure. W e ’re driving revenue to the Commonwealth and 66
1 the General Fund and for property tax relief.
2 We do offer similar things but we are in
3 different business of driving customers in a very more
4 regional perspective. When I mentioned about the 25
5 casinos that are in a two-hour drive of Harrah's
6 Philadelphia or the competition Erie faces between Buffalo
7 and Cleveland, these are competitive environments. And I
8 agree with you; we do offer food, beverage, and
9 entertainment options, but our purposes of being in the
10 Commonwealth are somewhat different than what bars and
11 taverns and what they're providing for the Commonwealth.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: Understood. And I'll
13 just close. We just have to look at both sides' point of
14 view -
15 MR. TYRRELL: Agreed.
16 REPRESENTATIVE MASSER: -- as we progress with
17 the bill. Thank you.
18 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: I just
19 hear video poker lurking in the background there someplace.
20 Representative Donatucci.
21 REPRESENTATIVE DONATUCCI: Thank you,
22 Mr. Chairman.
23 And this is more of a curiosity question, and I
24 don't even know if it's legal in New Jersey but I know if
25 you're standing with someone who's playing the slots or 67
1 you’re standing next to somebody playing at a table game
2 and they’re giving out the free drinks, you can get one,
3 too. Would that happen here?
4 MR. TYRRELL: It would be left to the legislative
5 body and the regulators and the Liquor Control Board to
6 allow such activity. We more encourage active players. I
7 know in New Jersey that’s a property-by-property decision.
8 Some folks want more activity on the gaming floor. Some
9 folks are saying if you’re only at a table w e ’ll serve a
10 drink. So that policy does exist in New Jersey but it’s
11 based on a property-by-property basis.
12 REPRESENTATIVE DONATUCCI: Okay. I didn’t know
13 if that’s what you were looking for or not. Thank you.
14 MR. KING: Just by way of clarification, I mean
15 right now complementary drinks can only go to a gaming
16 patron. We have addressing our letter the concept of both
17 extended hours, flexible hours, and being able to comp
18 drinks to nongaming patrons. And then again, as Joe
19 mentioned, you’re really then leaving it up to the property
20 to make a business decision about what is best for that
21 property to again make the business as successful as
22 possible.
23 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: This
24 panel has run over a little bit and we do have to get to
25 the Floor at 1:00. But, Representative Waters, you had a 68
1 question?
2 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Yes. Thank you,
3 Mr. Chairman.
4 And thank you, Chairman Costa, too, for having
5 this joint meeting today.
6 You made a comment. I heard you respond to one
7 of my colleagues about people leaving the tavern and
8 needing the ride home because maybe they are intoxicated or
9 should not be driving for reasons of public safety, and I
10 wonder, with the RAMP program and the TIPS program, they’re
11 supposed to be training all servers to make sure that that
12 does not happen. How often does that happen?
13 MR. TYRRELL: More frequent than you would
14 imagine in a casino because there’s surveillance at the
15 property. We have the Gaming Control Board onsite, as well
16 as State Police. And under the Gaming Act, w e ’re required
17 to self-report any violation. So if we see someone who is
18 obviously intoxicated, we have to step in because w e ’re a
19 regulated industry. There are folks watching what we do
20 and how we manage our business, which is vastly different
21 than other folks who provide alcoholic beverages.
22 We are a very heavily regulated facility and the
23 requirement of our employees to have that training is not
24 only for liability reasons but it’s also helping our
25 customers. When we interject with someone’s over their 69
1 head, meaning they’re drinking too much, pulling them off
2 the floor to play responsibly to make sure they’re not
3 walking out that door into a car. It’s just a responsible
4 way of running your business.
5 The one thing I didn’t put in my presentation,
6 which we haven’t -- this is more of an issue for the Gaming
7 Oversight Committee, we run a racetrack facility, and under
8 the racing laws, you’re allowed to bet on a horse when
9 you’re 18 years old. W e ’ve had a situation a few years ago
10 where we had a customer who was 18, showed his
11 identification and went to our racing level because if
12 you’ve ever been to Harrah’s Philadelphia, you have to go
13 to racing first -
14 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: I ’ve been there.
15 MR. TYRRELL: -- before you get to the casino
16 level. So main porte-cochere main entrance, second floor
17 is racing, third floor is casino. You can’t get to the
18 casino without going through racing. So the 18-year-old
19 figured out I have an 18-year-old ID, I can walk through,
20 play the horses, walk the property. We saw him on
21 surveillance. He tried to go up to the casino floor and he
22 showed a fake identification. The gentleman was obviously
23 turned away. We had to self-report. We paid a fine
24 because there was an underage person trying to get alcohol
25 and trying to gamble. And we go back to the enforcement 70
1 piece of how do we make personal responsibility for people
2 who are underage or being intoxicated, those teeth in the
3 law have been obviously welcomed, whether in the Liquor
4 Code or even the Gaming Act.
5 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: I ’m glad you cleared that
6 up because I was a little concerned because I knew that
7 those programs were mandatory, training programs for all
8 the workers. And for me, my general position is back in I
9 guess it was 2004 on July the 4th, a Sunday morning, we
10 voted here in the General Assembly -- remember, with the
11 Chairmen -
12 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: I
13 remember.
14 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: — to approve this
15 industry. And one of the reasons why for me that I felt so
16 inclined to do so was because part of what was going to
17 happen was that there was going to be some property tax
18 relief that was going to benefit Pennsylvanians who have
19 been complaining and asking for such relief.
20 So I was just hoping that maybe in your
21 presentation you could have expounded a little bit more
22 about how this has helped property tax relief for
23 Pennsylvanians who have been asking time and time again for
24 some help.
25 So I know you talked about it briefly but I think 71
1 that’s a better selling point, too, if you really want to
2 win the argument about why we should support and make sure
3 that we try to do everything we can to help you so that you
4 can earn more or generate more revenue in that regard. So
5 I just wanted to throw that out to you.
6 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS:
8 Representative Kaufer, w e ’re 10 minutes over. I can give
9 you about a minute for one more question.
10 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: Thank you. I appreciate
11 it, Mr. Chairman.
12 I know you mentioned that you don’t see the
13 casinos as competing with local bars, but if w e ’re picking
14 casinos around different policies than our bars and
15 taverns, which their business is alcohol, the marginal
16 increase that we might see at the casinos will be
17 absolutely devastating to our local bar owners.
18 And I ’m asking you to put yourself in their shoes
19 for a second because this is a quote that was in our
20 newspaper recently by a local bar owner, Louis Dominic, who
21 said "How is anybody going to compete? They’re hurting the
22 whole valley." So I ’m wondering how you expect our local
23 bars and taverns to compete?
24 MR. TYRRELL: Just to address the
25 Representative’s question, that’s why we have -- the Gaming 72
1 Act was designed to drive revenue, as Representative Waters
2 pointed out, about property tax relief and the Horseracing
3 Development Fund. And understand that we are offering
4 similar products. And the Gaming Act requires us to drive
5 customers that was written in 2004 with the purview that
6 Ohio and Maryland were not legalized at that point and New
7 York hasn't expanded. These are regional businesses. And
8 I understand the local bar and tavern owner is also in
9 business to make money and serve alcohol and food.
10 We are in the entertainment/hospitality industry,
11 but we have a different threshold to cross than a bar and
12 tavern owner. They're apples and oranges when you look at
13 the business models and the tax structures. If that were
14 the case, then a tavern owner, like with the small games of
15 chance, if he wanted to offer gaming, they have that
16 opportunity and go through the same rigorous background
17 checks we all go through, all our employees. All our
18 bartenders and cocktail servers have to go through a
19 background check and get licensed to be part of the casino,
20 vastly different business models and I'd respectfully
21 answer that question.
22 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Okay.
23 We're going to have to -
24 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: Thank you.
25 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: -- leave 73
1 it there.
2 REPRESENTATIVE KAUFER: Thank you very much.
3 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Thank you
4 very much, gentlemen.
5 And we are now going to call up our final panel,
6 Amy Christie from the Pennsylvania Licensed Beverage and
7 Tavern Association and Melissa Bova from the Pennsylvania
8 Restaurant and Lodging Association, please.
9 And for the cameras, if you could just identify
10 yourselves and you may begin at any time.
11 MS. CHRISTIE: My name is Amy Christie. I'm the
12 Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Licensed Beverage
13 and Tavern Association.
14 MS. BOVA: I am Melissa Bova, the Director of
15 Government Affairs for the Pennsylvania Restaurant and
16 Lodging Association.
17 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Okay.
18 MS. CHRISTIE: Thank you.
19 We would like to take this opportunity to thank
20 the Chairs and the Members of the House Liquor Control
21 Committee and the House Gaming Committee for inviting us to
22 share our thoughts and concerns regarding the creation of a
23 casino license to sell alcoholic beverages.
24 We are the Pennsylvania Licensed Beverage and
25 Tavern Association. We have strictly represented only 74
1 licensed retailers in the Commonwealth since 1941. We
2 currently represent over 2,200 licensed retail
3 establishments. All of our members, from corner taverns,
4 restaurants, golf courses, ski resorts, hotels, to brew
5 pubs, are licensed to sell alcohol on the retail level.
6 The majority of our members hold R or restaurant licenses
7 that are the same licenses casinos purchase.
8 Our association has always maintained the
9 position that we do not oppose any business from entering
10 the market as long as they buy the licenses available and
11 adhere to the same Liquor Code rules and regulations. The
12 reasoning for our position is simple:
13 • Our association members holding an R license
14 made large investments to obtain this
15 particular license based on the licenses the
16 Commonwealth has offered for over the last 60
17 years.
18 • For many, this investment is their retirement
19 and life savings.
20 • Creating new classifications of licenses will
21 lead to several new retail license categories
22 and will lead to the devaluation of our
23 member’s investments.
24 • Allowing different privileges beyond current
25 status to the third tier of licenses in the 75
1 Commonwealth creates inequity of license
2 benefits and allowances.
3
4 While our position is against the creation of new
5 licenses, we are not opposed to other businesses growing in
6 the Commonwealth. The "Restaurant" license is the more
7 coveted and expensive retail license in Pennsylvania
8 because it sustains many different business models. Your
9 local pub, white-tablecloth restaurant, bottle shop, pizza
10 shop, hotel, grocery store, casinos, some brew-pubs and
11 even wineries currently operate under this license with
12 great success.
13 Casinos have asked for a new and separate license
14 to acquire different Liquor Code rules and regulations from
15 our State’s other R license holders regarding serving hours
16 of alcoholic beverages. Our association does not support
17 this.
18 In 2006, the Legislature created a casino-only
19 provision that allows R and H license-holders of casinos to
20 supply any patron with continuous free drinks during their
21 visit. Pennsylvania became one of 13 States with casinos
22 to allow free alcoholic drinks to patrons. Any other R or
23 H license in the State is strictly limited to providing one
24 free drink per customer per day.
25 While our small business owners and employers 76
1 could simply not afford to provide our customers with
2 continuous free drinks, we continue to advocate for
3 equitable application of Liquor Code laws and regulations.
4 When this provision went into effect, many of our member
5 businesses in close vicinity to casinos suffered a
6 tremendous loss of business or simply had to close their
7 doors. If serving hours are extended for casinos, then we
8 must ask for the same privilege to extend to all retail
9 licensees in order to avoid further erosion of employment
10 and small businesses in the Commonwealth.
11 Just as an example, the Road’s End pub in West
12 Hazelton closed their doors after 24 years of business and
13 they were rated in the top 10 of live blues stages in the
14 whole country. That was when free drinks were made
15 permissible and the Mohegan Sun would take out full page
16 color ads in the Standard Speaker saying if you play $1
17 slots or higher or table games, you drink for free. He’s
18 within 15 miles of the casino.
19 The casinos are advocating for many legislative
20 changes, including extended alcohol serving times, to
21 increase profits. However, the casinos reported an
22 increase of table game revenue of nearly 12 percent in
23 February 2015 compared to numbers in February 2014. Quick
24 research shows that the PLCB reflects 950 R licenses in
25 safekeeping. With so many inactive licenses in the 77
1 Commonwealth, we do not support the creation of a casino
2 license which would continue to devalue our member’s
3 investments and create an unlevel playing field with Liquor
4 Code laws and regulations.
5 And there were a couple things I wanted to point
6 out. I had left informational packets with all of you. If
7 you look at page 4 real quick, just because the casinos,
8 we ’re talking about their numbers, I feel like I need to
9 talk about my numbers. We employ over 100,000 people in
10 Pennsylvania every year. In just local taxes, just liquor
11 taxes, and just buying product from the State store, we
12 spend over 485 million in just those taxes alone annually.
13 That’s obviously not including sales tax, wage income tax,
14 and every other business tax that we have.
15 As to other questions that have been offered
16 throughout this Committee, I also wanted to point out that
17 in 2008 when w e ’re talking about 24-hour service with
18 Representative Waters, Representative Kaufer’s questions,
19 there were 269 DUIs in 2008 in Lehigh County, 269. After
20 the opening of Sands Casino up and running 2012 after the
21 free drinks, there are 398 DUIs. So it’s doubled. I think
22 there is a reflection.
23 Thank you for your time.
24 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: And we’ll
25 go ahead with your testimony, please, Ms. Bova. 78
1 MS. BOVA: Sure.
2 Good morning, Chairman Ross, Chairman Payne, and
3 Chairman Costa, Members of the Committees. Many of you
4 know me. My name is Melissa Bova. As I mentioned, I ’m the
5 Director of Government Affairs at the Pennsylvania
6 Restaurant and Lodging Association.
7 On behalf of our more than 2,600 members who
8 represent 7,500 locations, a majority of which hold
9 licenses of some form in Pennsylvania, I ’m here to discuss
10 the potential ramifications of creating a casino license in
11 the Commonwealth. A lot of the points that I ’m going to
12 speak to today have been brought up in some type of context
13 earlier but w e ’ve really kind of delved into it to try and
14 provide you some feedbacks of what our members believe
15 would be the ramifications of creating this license.
16 As you all well know, especially those of you on
17 the Liquor Committee, tweaking one thing in the Liquor Code
18 tends to cause a ripple effect on other aspects of the
19 code. The proposal to create an entirely new license
20 category for casinos must be scrutinized for its impact
21 down the line. Without seeing an actual proposal, I cannot
22 say what our position is. I can assure you it’s not going
23 to be supportive. However, I do want to share the
24 feedback, thoughts and concerns that we have.
25 Our first concern with a casino license would be 79
1 the competitive disadvantage placed on current license-
2 holders. Casinos already receive, as we've already
3 discussed, many perks that are not afforded to other
4 licensees, such as extremely broad smoking exemptions, free
5 drinks on the casino floor and, of course, gaming itself.
6 We are assuming that casinos with a "C" license would be
7 allowed to operate for 24 hours. This would be yet another
8 perk to an entity that has a business model meant to keep
9 people in the casino and not visiting other entities in an
10 area.
11 So I will clarify what Mr. King and Mr. Tyrrell
12 said. We do consider them our competitors. We do know
13 that the casinos are meant to bring you in and keep you
14 there. They have everything you want to do there and they
15 do impact businesses around the area.
16 Our second concern is the safety risk associated
17 with permitting a licensee for 24 hours. Yes, the State
18 Police are on site at the casino, but as Amy already
19 mentioned, what happens when those customers leave the
20 casino? The risks must be fully evaluated when you have
21 people out on the roads and out and about at 3:00, 4:00,
22 5:00, 6:00 in the morning.
23 Finally, we want to touch upon the logistics of
24 how this license will work. The Liquor Control Board
25 touched upon this briefly earlier. Under the current 80
1 system, a casino does not necessarily operate with a single
2 R license. There are multiple restaurants in many of those
3 locations, each with their own individual R license. If a
4 casino license is created, does the license that licenses
5 the floor of casino become the new casino license? And
6 then what happens to onsite restaurants that have their own
7 license? Now they have to follow the rules and regulations
8 of the R licenses, which puts them at a disadvantage to the
9 casino license that can operate 24 hours a day.
10 Are all entities in the casino going to be
11 required to give up their R license? That wouldn't work
12 because the R license is the property of the holder. This
13 could be a lose-lose for those restaurants that hold a
14 liquor license within the casino itself. They have to sell
15 their R license to comply with the new law, or they keep
16 their license but can't compete with the casino floor. If
17 they do choose to sell the license because of a law that
18 wraps them into another license. What if there is not a
19 buyer at the time? The existing license-holders that would
20 be impacted by this new license need to be carefully
21 considered when you're looking at these proposals.
22 As you can see by our testimony, we have several
23 concerns and questions about creating a new license
24 category which need to be answered. At the end of the day,
25 if the legislative body does decide that there need to be 81
1 some changes to the casino license to address competition
2 issues, those types of things, we urge that the cost of
3 these changes reflect the many additional perks that
4 casinos are already receiving, plus any new perks they
5 would receive under this license upon purchase.
6 In many areas, R licenses are selling for over
7 $300,000. If a license is created that offers more perks
8 than these R licenses, the cost of that license needs to
9 reflect the difference.
10 We would ask, as you move forward with this
11 process, that you allow the PRLA to provide the insight and
12 feedback that will be needed for any proposal that is
13 developed. We represent a wide variety of licensees in
14 this State and the change to any current system needs to be
15 carefully considered relating to how it will impact those
16 already operating under the guidelines of the code.
17 Thank you and I ’m happy to take any questions.
18 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Thank
19 you.
20 Representative Waters?
21 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22 I ’m happy that Amy and Melissa came to testify
23 today. It’s always good to hear both sides of any position
24 and that’s why we have hearings like this, right,
25 Mr. Chairman? 82
1 I heard you mention -- Amy, I believe it was,
2 mentioned that the number of DUIs had increased over a time
3 period. What was that again?
4 MS. CHRISTIE: That was in regards to reporting
5 from Lehigh County DUI Association, that the number of DUIs
6 had increased from before the free drinks were allowed
7 until after the free drinks were allowed, and the DUIs
8 doubled in a year.
9 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: That was before the State
10 made it mandatory, the training for people who serve? Was
11 that before then?
12 MS. CHRISTIE: Well, it’s not mandatory training.
13 Is it mandatory training for casinos? Because it’s not
14 mandatory training. There is no mandatory -
15 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: The RAMP program.
16 MS. CHRISTIE: There is no mandatory training in
17 Pennsylvania as far as licensed establishments go, although
18 I remember your bill.
19 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: What?
20 MS. CHRISTIE: I remember your bill. There is no
21 mandatory training for licensed establishments in
22 Pennsylvania, only if you have received citations for
23 serving a minor or sometimes for a visibly intoxicated
24 person. Then the ALJ may issue mandatory RAMP training.
25 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Okay. So do we know how 83
1 many of those people who were DUIs were people who left
2 casinos or many of those left -
3 MS. CHRISTIE: That we don’t know and I can get
4 you the information from the study. But the association
5 attributed it to the casino I guess because of the highways
6 that the DUIs were caught on. And I can give the whole
7 Committee that study.
8 REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Okay. Thank you.
9 MS. CHRISTIE: Yes.
10 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Do any of
11 the other Members have questions for this panel?
12 Seeing none, we thank you.
13 MS. CHRISTIE: Thank you.
14 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: I now
15 want to recognize Representative Payne for some closing
16 comments.
17 GAMING OVERSIGHT MAJORITY CHAIRMAN PAYNE: Thank
18 you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you and Chairman Costa
19 both for agreeing to the joint hearing. The Gaming
20 Committee has been very active this year trying to tackle a
21 variety of topics.
22 And on this one, if I could just point out you
23 can never make everybody happy in the liquor world and you
24 don’t make everybody happy in the gaming world either. I
25 found that out. But we currently have bars, restaurants, 84
1 taverns, casinos. They all close at 2:00 a.m. but our
2 clubs don’t close until 3:00 a.m. So one could argue that
3 w e ’re having a lot more drunk drivers at 3:00 a.m. than we
4 are at 2:00 a.m. I don’t know that that’s true because of
5 the dedication of the restaurants, taverns, bars, and club
6 owners. Everybody’s responsible for that patron, for that
7 customer.
8 I think we dwell a lot about the drinking and
9 whether they’re leaving drunk, and the other day on a local
10 radio channel, the gentleman said, well, I don’t care if
11 they drink until 2:00 a.m. but I don’t want to drink until
12 4:00 a.m. because I go to work at 4:00 a.m. So like you
13 can be drunk at 2:00, just don’t be drunk at 4:00 when I go
14 to work. That makes no sense.
15 Number two, the perception then is everybody
16 arrives at noontime and they’re drinking until 2:00 a.m. I
17 don’t think so. We know better, that the owners of all the
18 facilities are very careful that their patrons are not
19 turning into VIPs.
20 And last is just a personal experience with my
21 own family. I have a member of my family who works until
22 11:00 or 12:00 every day on shift. When he gets off at
23 midnight, much to my surprise -- I ’d be going home tired
24 and ready for bed -- he’s going to eat dinner and that’s
25 his shift. That’s his body clock. He’s ready to go eat 85
1 and have a beer or two. And so he’s going into a facility,
2 whether it’s a restaurant or tavern or a casino or a club
3 and trying to get something done in a two-hour frame that
4 we all would have all day to do.
5 So I think it’s a different world. It’s a
6 different system and I think we all have to look at both
7 sides of the issue. And I appreciate the hearing doing
8 that and I look forward to going forward on that.
9 Thanks again for doing this hearing.
10 LIQUOR CONTROL MAJORITY CHAIRMAN ROSS: Thank
11 you.
12 And I want to thank all the testifiers and all
13 those that attended the hearing, and I appreciate the
14 Members of both Committees being patient with us. And we
15 got a fair amount of information in front of us today,
16 which w e ’ll have a chance to think about and do the best we
17 can to craft good legislation and consider it carefully
18 before we take that legislation forward.
19 So thank you, everybody, and at this point I ’ll
20 declare the meeting closed.
21
22 (The hearing concluded at 12:44 p.m.) 86
1 I hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings
2 are a true and accurate transcription produced from audio
3 on the said proceedings and that this is a correct
4 transcript of the same.
5
6
7 Christy Snyder
8 Transcriptionist
9 Diaz Transcription Services