Third Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Monday, May 30, 2011 Afternoon Sitting Volume 23, Number 5

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Third Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Don McRae Attorney General...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development...... Hon. Minister of Education...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Housing...... Hon. Minister of Environment...... Hon. Dr. Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Thomson Minister of Health...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation...... Hon. Minister of Labour, Citizens' Services and Open Government...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the OfficialO pposition...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Dawn Black Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Douglas Horne Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James (on leave) Clerk Assistant and Acting Clerk of Committees...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Harry Bloy Black, Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Hon. Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner, QC Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Clark, Hon. Christy (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coell, Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Hansen, Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nechako Lakes...... Hawes, Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Dawn Black Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Hon. Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry, QC (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (Ind.)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Dr. Stewart, Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Dr. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Christy Clark Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna......

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 34; Independent 2

CONTENTS

Monday, May 30, 2011 Afternoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 7533

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 7534 Seaspan Marine Corp. bid for shipbuilding contract J. Mcintyre Bike to Work Week L. Popham Contributions of seniors M. Macdiarmid May Day events on Quadra Island C. Trevena 100th anniversary of Van Horne Elementary School M. Stilwell Response to flooding in Cariboo-Chilcotin area B. Simpson

Oral Questions...... 7536 Funding for groups participating in missing women inquiry A. Dix Hon. C. Clark L. Krog Hon. B. Penner J. Kwan B. Ralston C. James M. Farnworth M. Mungall

Petitions...... 7542 N. Macdonald H. Lali B. Ralston D. Black R. Austin S. Hammell J. Brar

Reports from Committees...... 7542 Special Committee of Selection, first report for the third session of the 39th parliament Hon. R. Coleman

Petitions...... 7542 H. Bains Orders of the Day

Government Motions on Notice...... 7543 Motion 9 — Government response to Judges Compensation Commission report recommendations Hon. B. Penner L. Krog Motion 10 — Government response to Judicial Justices Compensation Commission report recommendations Hon. B. Penner L. Krog Motion 11 — Government changes to harmonized sales tax Hon. K. Falcon A. Dix Hon. B. Lekstrom B. Ralston I. Black D. Donaldson R. Sultan M. Karagianis B. Simpson Hon. P. Bell N. Macdonald M. Stilwell M. Sather J. Les S. Simpson K. Corrigan S. Fraser D. Routley V. Huntington H. Bains

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 7593 Estimates: Ministry of Health (continued) B. Simpson Hon. M. De Jong B. Routley M. Sather C. Trevena S. Fraser M. Farnworth J. Kwan Estimates: Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure (continued) Hon. B. Lekstrom G. Coons H. Bains Estimates: Ministry of Attorney General (continued) L. Krog Hon. B. Penner 7533

MONDAY, MAY 30, 2011 vice-president; and Derek Doyle, the CEO and registrar. Would the House please help make them welcome. The House met at 1:34 p.m. Hon. B. Lekstrom: Joining me in the gallery today [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] are two very able-bodied individuals who work in the Legislature. I would like the House to please help me Routine Business welcome Lynette Butcher, my administrative assist- ant, as well as Holly Unwin, who is my administrative Introductions by Members coordinator.

C. James: I have three guests in the gallery and in M. MacDiarmid: I'm delighted to welcome from the precinct with us today: Joe Foy, who is the national Vancouver-Fairview today students from the Collège campaign director for the Wilderness Committee; Chief Educacentre, along with their teachers Kathleen Kulpas Liz Logan, deputy Chief of Treaty 8 tribal council and and Spencer Gee. These are five adult students who are also the former Chief of Fort Nelson First Nation; and learning English. They are new to Canada in the last Diane Culling, a member of the board of directors for couple of years, and they've immigrated to Canada the Peace Valley Environment Association. from Iraq, Senegal, Guinea and the DRC. So to them I These individuals and others are travelling the province say bienvenu, welcome. Would the House please make on their Meet the Peace tour. They're in Victoria tonight, them welcome. telling the story of the Peace River and talking about the concerns they have around the proposed Site C dam. E. Foster: In the House today I have three very special Would the House please make them all welcome. guests. My wife, Janice, is here today, and accompany- [1335] ing her are two young men who have spent the last year with us. Exchange students Nobahiro Tomanaka Hon. B. Penner: It's my honour to introduce an in- and Jesus Romos Salazar have lived with us since last dividual who maybe doesn't need an introduction, but September, and they're getting ready to go home at the I would like to welcome him here to the floor of the end of the school year, so I would like the House to Legislature. Former mayor of Oak Bay, former member make them very welcome. of the Legislature and probably best known as the former Attorney General for the province of British Columbia. M. Stilwell: I'd like to introduce Dr. Arvind Gupta Would the House please make Brian Smith welcome. today. Dr. Gupta is the CEO and scientific director of MITACS and a professor of computer science at the Hon. M. McNeil: It gives me great pleasure to intro- University of British Columbia. Through unique re- duce some very special people in my life: my husband search and training programs, MITACS is developing of many, many years, Rod McNeil; my daughter Molly the next generation of innovators with vital scientific O'Callaghan, along with her children Nora, Fiona and and business skills. I also see Jason LeSange of MITACS Roger O'Callaghan. In addition, I have my sister of many, and Brad Bennett, who is the chair of MITACS. Would many years in the audience, Anne Mathisen. Would the the House please make them welcome. House please make them all feel welcome. I. Black: I have two introductions to make this after- R. Chouhan: I would like to share very special and noon. One is becoming a frequent visitor to this House. good news with everyone today. My wife, Inder, and I He is my father. I'm beginning to wonder whether it's became grandparents once again, the second time. My the support for his son he's interested in or if he's just daughter Amrita Chouhan Sanford; her husband, Jamie keeping a beadier eye on how his tax dollars are being Sanford; our first granddaughter, Chloe; and my younger spent. Would the House join me in welcoming my father daughter Anu Chouhan are all very excited to receive our to the House this afternoon, Stewart Black. new granddaughter. Please join me to welcome her. Sitting next to my father is a seven-year-old girl. Her name is Danielle. She is the light of my world. She's my Hon. N. Yamamoto: Joining us today are mem- daughter. Would the House please welcome Danielle to bers of the Association of Professional Engineers the House as well. and Geoscientists of British Columbia. Their 26,000- [1340] member organization helps to ensure the protection of the public, and their organization supports the R. Cantelon: Today I'm delighted to have join us in work of government in many ways. the House five people who work withI nSight developers, Joining us in the gallery are 16 representatives, in- an award-winning developer in Nanaimo. These are the cluding Frank Denton, their president; Jeff Holm, their people who are the real brains behind the organization, 7534 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

so please welcome Louise Turch, Tracy McLean, Eileen Hon. M. de Jong: Joining us from Summerland today Barker, Clara Ominger and Paula Sled. Please make here in the precincts are Carla Wright and Ken Ostraat. them welcome in this House. In addition to visiting us, I owe a special debt of thanks to Carla, whose daughter toils day in, day out within P. Pimm: Today in the precinct we've had a classroom the Health Minister's office and performs yeoman ser- from up north, North Peace high school, 35 students vice. She is a very talented young lady. I know the House with their two teachers, Jim Lovell and Darcy Hoff. will want to make her mom, Carla, and Ken Ostraat very Certainly, they're coming from one of the best schools in welcome here in Victoria. northern British Columbia. I'd like the House to make them welcome today. Statements (Standing Order 25B) L. Reid: We are joined on the floor of the chamber today by two wonderful women. We have Sheila Orr, SEASPAN MARINE CORP. who was our former colleague from Victoria-Hillside, BID FOR SHIPBUILDING CONTRACT and Wendy McMahon, who represented Columbia River–Revelstoke. I would ask this House to extend their J. McIntyre: Following this morning's success- warmest welcome possible to those who have served ful motion put forward by my colleague from West with us in the province of British Columbia. Vancouver–Capilano, supporting Seaspan Marine's bid for the estimated $35 billion national shipbuilding con- D. Hayer: I have a very special guest on this very tracts, I rise to ask all members of this House to join historical day, when our new Premier was sworn in as with me in wishing Seaspan every success as the July 7 an MLA today. My special guest is my wife for almost deadline for proposals looms large. 30 years, Isabelle Hayer, my best friend and volunteer. They're in competition with three other bidders in Would the House please make her very welcome. central and eastern Canada to become one of the two 30-year strategic partners with the federal government Hon. S. Bond: It is my privilege today to introduce to rebuild and refit the country's naval and patrol fleets. some exceptional volunteers who help British Columbians The procurement model is designed to create two cen- in their darkest hours. They are spotters in the sky search- tres of shipbuilding excellence in the country that will ing for plane-crash survivors. They are road rescuers who have the first right of refusal on any and all federal con- pull injured travellers from their wrecked vehicles. They tracts for large combat and non-combat vessels. are emergency radio operators, search and rescue trainers If Seaspan were to be successful, this would ensure and emergency social service providers. They are all vol- the stability of the B.C. shipbuilding industry with unteers with decades of dedication. thousands of well-paid, skilled, family-supporting jobs, Those with us today are this year's recipients of emer- averaging $80,000 a year. A recent report estimates the gency management British Columbia's Public Safety creation of an additional 740 construction jobs as a re- Lifeline Volunteer Awards, and I know the House will sult of the infrastructure required to build the ships in want to congratulate them. both Victoria and Vancouver. We have Brady Conroy of Kamloops. He is the [1345] emergency management B.C. Emergency Radio Additionally, the winning shipyard must foster a viable Communications Volunteer of the Year. Marie Woodruff marine cluster around it to incorporate other shipbuild- of Victoria is the provincial emergency program Air ers and suppliers into its supply chain, thereby adding Volunteer of the Year. Bob Zimmerman of Quesnel is the value beyond their business and further expanding the Search and Rescue Volunteer of the Year for 2011. Bev economic impact for, in our case, the two major ship- Stenning of Victoria is the Emergency Social Services building centres. Volunteer of the Year, and Jim Hurtado of Vanderhoof is This has the potential to significantly increase the the Road Rescue Volunteer of the Year. size of our marine industry, which has for decades been These individuals do exceptional service. We were subject to extreme economic cycles. Seaspan Marine very proud to present their awards today on the steps of Corp., headquartered in North Vancouver and with a the Legislature. I know that all of our colleagues in the workforce of approximately 2,000, is an association of House will want to make them welcome and congratu- Canadian companies involved in coastal and deep-sea late them. transportation, bunkering, ship repair and shipbuilding services in western North America. C. Hansen: Joining us in the House today is a former Congratulations to Jonathan Whitworth, CEO, and resident of Vancouver-Quilchena but someone who fre- Seaspan for being on the shortlist and know that you of- quently finds the opportunity to come back to that neck of ficially have British Columbia's full support as the west the woods. Would the House please welcome Peter Ker. coast contender. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7535

BIKE TO WORK WEEK ince. On average, those who volunteer spend 196 hours volunteering each year. Our seniors enrich our com- L. Popham: When you look around B.C. today, you munities and our lives in many ways. They inspire us, just might think something's amiss — or a mess, to put it and we owe them our deepest respect. bluntly. It may look like something's a little off or a little Now, here are some of the ways that you can celebrate flat. You might just conclude that it's bad hair day here in with seniors in your community next week. There will B.C., but actually, it's the first day ofB ike to Work Week. be barbecues, dinners, bocce tournaments, picnics and Many of us are sporting the very coveted hair style those garden parties. If you're a senior in Chilliwack or North of us in the know call helmet head. For me it's an every- Vancouver, you can compete in a talent show to be part day look, and I'm proud of it. of the Canadian Senior Star, the largest talent competi- H.G. Wells once said: "When I see an adult on a bi- tion dedicated to seniors. And if you're in Victoria, you cycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race." can dance at the Rockin' 50s Dance — dance the night Well, would he ever be excited today. It's the 17th an- away dressed up in '50s attire. nual Bike to Work Week, and it's being held from May Regardless of where you are next week, please make 30 to June 5 all across B.C. The vision of Bike to Work sure to take some time to celebrate with the seniors in Week is to experience the joy of an ever-increasing num- your community. ber of people safely commuting by bicycle. The mission We owe them so much. Let's make sure to give them is to encourage more people in all B.C. communities to the respect and honour that they deserve. So don't forget commute by bicycle through bike-to-work initiatives. next week to celebrate with B.C. seniors. Last year in Victoria alone we had 633 registered teams, [1350] a total of 5,744 cyclists, 830 new cyclists and a total of 243,798 kilometres cycled. MAY DAY EVENTS ON QUADRA ISLAND Albert Einstein once said, "Life is like riding a bicycle; in order to keep your balance, you must keep mov- C. Trevena: Mounties in their red serge, the colour ing," and that's just what Bike to Work Week does. It guard, pipe band and then the floats — a parade that helps introduce an opportunity to stay healthy physic- wends through the forest along Rebecca Spit. Saturday ally and mentally while reducing our carbon footprint. marked Quadra Island's 113th May Day. The theme We can arrive bright-eyed and bushy-tailed for work, this year was "Gardens of delight." In the past it's been which leads to greater productivity and a healthier islands, air, oceans. The one guiding rule for the theme workforce. according to Sandy Spearing, who runs the community I'll leave you with a quote from John F. Kennedy: centre, was the request by a young participant years ago: "Nothing compares to the simple pleasure of a bike "Can I wear my angel wings?" ride." This year we had gnomes and bees and garden parties, underwater gardens and many sets of angel wings. There CONTRIBUTIONS OF SENIORS were also the traditional floats and the child care centre, the kindergarten, the May Queen and her court, and the M. MacDiarmid: Next week, June 5 to 11, is B.C. volunteer emergency services in their dress uniforms. Seniors Week. It's a great time for us all to honour and The parade ends at the field on Rebecca Spit, where celebrate the seniors in our lives. Our older citizens are the May Queen is crowned. This is a comparatively new an incredibly diverse group of individuals, and I know tradition. The first May Queen was the then 11-year-old we all want to thank them for the tremendous contribu- member for Saanich South. This year Jane Nighswander tions they've made and continue to make here in British was crowned and talked about May Day's place in her life Columbia. in the community. Of course, there are maypole dances, Who are our seniors? They're the nation-builders grade 3s working hard on the intricate weaving of rib- who've helped make this province the amazing place bons, year after year, taught by Barrie Calverly. that it is today. Our seniors are our parents, our grand- Every year a person or organization on the island is parents and our friends. honoured for their commitment to the community. This What are they doing today? Well, some seniors are year it was the seniors housing society. Gourmet picnics entrepreneurs, and many are in the workforce, so they're are donated by island restaurants and stores and are auc- at work. Right now others are swimming, cycling, hik- tioned, and people eye the sky for the continued sun and ing, doing yoga or tai chi. They are tweeting. They are on just a touch of breeze for the annual sailing race. Facebook. They are inspiring, listening, mentoring and The afternoon is a time for games, for volleyball and sharing their knowledge, wisdom and life experience. races, the building of beach houses and, of course, the Many of them are volunteering. Seniors do thousands grease pole. Now, many visitors to Quadra may assume of hours of volunteer work every year in B.C. In 2007 that that tall pole in the field on the spit is our maypole, seniors volunteered for 44.3 million hours in this prov- but every year Doug and Gretchen Peters make sure it's 7536 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

covered in grease and $50 is attached to the top. While down the road a flash flood of another creek deposited strategies vary to reach it, it usually goes. gravel two-thirds of the way across the narrow point of Quadra opens itself to the tourists. In fact, this Quesnel Lake. A few days ago Choate Creek wiped out a weekend sees the studio tour which marks the start of portion of Beaver Valley Road. the season. But May Day is the time for friends and At one point the Cottonwood River rose 18 inches neighbours on the island to celebrate Quadra Island's above its historic high at Cottonwood House historic wonderful sense of community. site. Downriver it wiped out the frontage of a small subdivision on the Quesnel Hixon Road, causing gov- 100th ANNIVERSARY OF ernment to dismantle three homes in order to prevent VAN HORNE ELEMENTARY SCHOOL them from being swept into the river. [1355] M. Stilwell: I want to wish Van Horne Elementary I stood with the two families whose homes were to be School a happy 100th birthday. Listen to what Principal destroyed and witnessed their anger and anguish as they Phil Moses says about this wonderful school: "For a cen- removed the last of their belongings and complied with tury Van Horne Elementary School has created a legacy the government's need to destroy their private property of foundational learning, pivotal experiences, special re- in order to protect the public interest. lationships and an enduring supportive community." Throughout all of these natural disasters, teams of Last week over 600 people came together to celebrate, dedicated individuals manage and coordinate the gov- reconnect and remember the struggles and successes ernment's response and assist victims to find shelter of 100 years. Besides Mr. Moses, 18 former principals and comfort when they are evacuated from their homes. were recognized for their contributions and the differ- Today I want to recognize the efforts and expertise of ence they made in the lives of students, parents and the professional staff in the Solicitor General's office, teachers. emergency management B.C., the Cariboo regional Parents have always been integral to the school, and district's emergency operations centre, emergency so- in the 1920s the parents established a soup kitchen and cial services. gave free milk to the needy. Today parents continue to All of these people do their absolute best to mitigate make contributions to school life and the community. and moderate the impacts of Mother Nature's fury. I ask Many former principals remember efforts of past ACP s the House to please join me in thanking all the emer- — the dances, fairs and events held with the surround- gency response personnel from all levels of government ing community. who work hard to serve the people of B.C. in the times Thanks to Dave Miranda, current ACP chair for his of natural disasters. work, and kudos go to all of the centennial committee: Phil Moses, Denise Johnson, Dorothy Watkins, Sean Oral Questions Martin, Erica Saunders, Debbie Blaise, Vicky Rusk and Mary Shields. FUNDING FOR GROUPS PARTICIPATING Van Horne continues its success due to the hard- IN MISSING WOMEN INQUIRY working students, their devoted staff and supportive parents. They all thrive following the code of conduct A. Dix: First, on behalf of the official opposition, I that instils the desire to work together as a team. It was a want to congratulate the Premier on her return to the wonderful celebration, and congratulations to all. Legislature. I'm sure it's a very, very proud day for her and her family. RESPONSE TO FLOODING My question is to the Premier, and I hope it's a question IN CARIBOO-CHILCOTIN AREA that we can find some agreement on. The government has chosen to deny funding to women's groups, to ab- B. Simpson: Mother Nature has not been very kind original groups, to community groups in the Downtown to the Cariboo-Chilcotin this past year. Last summer's Eastside at the Missing Women's Inquiry — this in spite fires destroyed thousands of hectares of forests, while of the recommendation of , who has recom- smoke blocked the sun for weeks and choked the air mended that these groups be heard, that their voices be throughout the region. Then came the fall storms that heard at the inquiry. Will the Premier intervene to over- washed out Highway 20, and now we have the spring turn this decision and make sure those voices are heard floods. at the inquiry? Many areas of the Cariboo have already been im- pacted by early spring flooding from rivers and creeks Hon. C. Clark: Thank you to the Leader of the that won't peak until late June. Cedar Creek in Likely Opposition for his kind remarks to start off this very now flows like a torrent through the community's ball- first question period since I've become Premier. It is park, flooding half of Cedar Point Provincial Park. Just indeed nice to be back. I owe many thanks, as well, to Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7537

the people of Vancouver–Point Grey for supporting Hon. C. Clark: Thanks to the member for the me and getting me here and, of course, to all the folks question. sitting on this side of the House who've been holding The member knows that the government is funding down the fort while I haven't been here, including the the families to be able to be heard at the commission, Minister of Finance and Deputy Premier, who's done and we are making sure that as many voices as possible some full duties in these last couple of weeks. I'm de- are heard before that commission. It seems to me to be lighted to be here. our obligation to do that, and we're certainly living up Thank you very much to the member for the ques- to it, although it isn't required by law for us to do that. tion. It is tragic what has happened in the Downtown We want to make sure those voices are heard because, as Eastside, and it continues to be tragic — what happens I said, the issues facing women and children and men down there for women and children and men who who live in the Downtown Eastside are serious, and struggle every day in what is certainly one of Canada's they are urgent. poorest postal codes. It has been a challenge for gov- One of the things the government has done to try and ernments for decades to try and get our hands around address those issues and make sure that we really under- the issues down there, try and wrestle them down and stand them, to make sure we have a road map to try and make sure that it's a better place tomorrow than it has address them is appoint the commission of inquiry that been in the past. Wally Oppal is heading. Certainly, this government called the inquiry in the There are many, many other things, though, that we first place and appointed Mr.O ppal to head it up because can do, and among them is making it a little bit easier for we want to make sure that people's voices are heard. We all families to get ahead in this province. Make it a little want to make sure that we get to the bottom of some bit easier for all those folks, many of whom are struggling of the problems down on the Downtown Eastside and at the bottom of the income scale, many of whom find make sure that when we get to the bottom of those prob- themselves at the middle of the income scale, some of lems, we have a way to move forward. whom still find themselves at risk of homelessness. Make I know the inquiry is committed to making sure that sure that they have a chance to get ahead. we can hear from as many voices as absolutely pos- Putting families first is at the heart of what we are sible, because we want to make sure that the Downtown doing as a government. We want to make sure that Eastside is a better place, is a safer place and is the kind families have a lighter burden across the board, that of close-knit, healthy community that many of the rest it's a little bit easier every day for families to put food of us have the good fortune to live in. on the table for their children, no matter where they find themselves across the province, whether it's in Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a Salmon Arm, whether it's in Prince Rupert, whether supplemental. it's in Atlin or whether it's in the Downtown Eastside of the city of Vancouver. A. Dix: Well, there's apparently funding for a large number of government lawyers. We've seen in previous Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a fur- matters, in particular in the B.C. Rail trial, that there's ther supplemental. funding sometimes for government insiders — $6 mil- lion worth of funding in that case for them to get access A. Dix: Putting families first isn't about words; it's to justice. about actions. In this case the actions are $6 million in In this case we're talking about the groups…. I want funding for the defendants in the B.C. Rail trial — $6 to quote the former Attorney General, who says: "These million, right; that's what it is — and to deny funding groups are closer to the facts at issue. Most of these to the very groups that Wally Oppal has said should groups were front-line lobbyists for public attention to be funded. the missing and murdered women and ultimately for What did he say? He said that the groups he has given the establishment of a public inquiry." standing at the inquiry should not be denied participa- [1400] tion because they have lack of funds, and this is precisely Now, the Attorney General says there's a line, and what the government is doing. The voices who protected because of that line, these voices won't be heard at the and defended women in the Downtown Eastside are be- inquiry; they won't be supported by the government. ing denied access at this hearing. But I think that clearly, the government's line is in the Why doesn't the Premier intervene, give the same wrong place. So what I'm asking the Premier to do is status she's giving to government organizations at this intervene and ensure that those groups that represent inquiry, give the same treatment that the government women on the Downtown Eastside are heard at this gave to defendants in the B.C. Rail trial and ensure that public inquiry. those voices are heard at this inquiry? 7538 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

Hon. C. Clark: Thanks again to the member for the the formal hearing study or hearing commission but question. also a study commission so that all people can partici- Now, the member knows, as I said, that the govern- pate, if they want, without the need to rely on lawyers ment is funding families. We, I believe, have a moral for cross-examination in a more adversarial setting. So obligation to do that. Even if we don't have a legal one, we responded. we certainly are. In addition, as the Premier noted, we have decided We've expanded the terms of reference for the com- to fund legal representation for the families of the mur- mission so that it's a study commission. They can hear dered and missing women, because we know that this is from many other groups as well, so it's a less formal in- an important issue. quiry. The idea with that is to make sure that it's easier for people to be able to access the inquiry and make Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. their voices heard. There are very specific issues in the Downtown L. Krog: If the former Attorney General, the head Eastside that we absolutely have to be thinking about. of this commission, had thought the funding was ad- We have to make sure, as I said, that the route going equate to simply fund one lawyer to represent all of the forward is a lot better than the route going backward families, he would have said so. But that's not what Mr. that we've seen in the past for people in the Downtown Oppal said. He said: "My intention was to ensure that Eastside. no group with standing before the inquiry would be But we have to support families all across the province. denied legal counsel at the evidentiary hearings due to We have to lighten the burden. That's why the minis- lack of funds." ter responsible for B.C. Hydro is reviewing B.C. Hydro. The simple fact is that no one goes into this kind of That's why, when ICBC decided that they were going to inquiry without counsel and expects to get the same start giving people higher rates after they had one ticket, hearing or have the same kind of job done. Businesses the Solicitor General stepped in. That's why the Minister don't go into courtrooms without high-priced lawyers of Transportation is having a look at B.C. Ferries. because they appreciate you need an advocate. The fact That's why we are lowering theH ST by 2 points. We're is that the former Attorney General recognized the need going to make sure that every family in this province for advocates for these groups to ensure that all the ends up ahead when it comes to taxes. When you think voices were heard. about the total burden that government puts on families Again, my question to the Premier is: why is it we — I want to help families get ahead all across the prov- can fund Bobby Virk and Dave Basi, but we can't fund ince — I'd sure rather be supporting a 10 percent tax these groups? than a 12 percent tax. Hon. B. Penner: Obviously, the public as well as the L. Krog: I'm sure it wasn't the Premier's intention to government — and, I would assume, the opposition, trivialize this topic by comparing the discussion today from the comments I've just heard — have a limited with what's happened at ICBC. For years these women's appetite for spending unending amounts of money on groups have been arguing and fighting to seek justice. lawyers and their fees. That's why we've decided to pri- We are talking about dozens of women whose lives are oritize. Our priority is putting families first. gone, women who have disappeared. Like we did for the Braidwood Inquiry looking at the [1405] tragic death of Robert Dziekanski, where we provided It's a very simple proposition. The former Attorney funding for the family of Mr. Dziekanski to be repre- General was very clear. He's a respected jurist. He was sented in that inquiry, we are providing funding for the a respected lawyer in his time. He was a respected families of the murdered and missing women that sadly Attorney General. He has stated very clearly that these lost their lives in the Downtown Eastside at the hands groups should be funded. of Mr. Pickton. I'm simply asking the Premier to say to me today, to There is not an unlimited amount of money that can tell this House, to say to this group: why is it okay to pay be spent on taxpayers' fees. Our government recognizes for $6 million in legal fees for Dave Basi and Bobby Virk that, but nevertheless, we are providing the funds neces- but not for these women's groups? sary so that the families of the murdered and missing women have legal representation at the inquiry. Hon. B. Penner: As the Premier has correctly noted, we do feel an obligation to respond to the tragedy that J. Kwan: Some 60 women have gone missing from took place in the Downtown Eastside with the mur- the Downtown Eastside community, and 20 other dered and missing women. That's why our government women have gone missing from the Highway of Tears established the inquiry. That's why our government ex- since 1995. Wally Oppal, the inquiry commissioner, on panded the terms of the inquiry to allow for not just May 3, 2011, recommended that the government pro- Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7539 vide funding to 13 applicants who requested financial that people at the study commission don't need to cross- assistance to participate in the formal hearing of the examine witnesses. That's confirmation that in order to commission. participate in the hearing you don't need to have a tax- For this inquiry to deliver real answers and lessons, payer-funded lawyer. residents of the Downtown Eastside, women's and in- Now, we did see fit to provide legal representation for digenous advocacy and service organizations must be the families of the murdered and missing women. We felt full participants. They were close to the women who have that that was appropriate. It's similar to what government gone missing. They knew their struggles, and they knew has done with other inquiries such as the Braidwood their lives. They are the ones who drew public attention Inquiry into what happened to Mr. Dziekanski when he to these cases and have been fighting for justice. arrived at the YVR international arrivals lounge. My question is to the Premier. Will she support their As the Premier pointed out, and she's quite correct, participation in the inquiry so that B.C. has a meaning- we have no legal obligation to do that. We felt it is im- ful and full missing women's inquiry? portant to do it for the families, and that's why we are funding representation for the families. Hon. B. Penner: As I indicated, our government is providing funding for legal representation for the fam- B. Ralston: My question, too, is for the Premier. ilies of the murdered and missing women so that they Clearly, Mr. Justice Oppal, as he was, and the former can participate in the formal inquiry component that's Attorney General, did not make this recommendation taking place. But as I mentioned, our government re- lightly. It came after careful consideration and submis- sponded to a request from the commissioner himself in sions by the commission. He has recommended that in March to expand the terms of reference so that it would order that justice be done…. I'm going to quote from allow for a study commission, which is less formal, less what he said. "My recommendation to the provincial adversarial and more open for people to participate, government was to fund all the groups that satisfied me with or without legal representation. that they would not be able to participate fully without [1410] financial support." That avenue is there. I know that the commis- This is coming from a very respected jurist, a former sioner does intend to hold study commission hearings Attorney General, who did not make this recommenda- and to make it as successful as possible for people to tion lightly. Why will the Premier not heed that advice participate. and overrule the Attorney General?

Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Hon. B. Penner: I'm sure the commissioner will be pleased to know that the opposition, who used to J. Kwan: Let me just put this quote on the record. criticize him on a daily basis, now considers him well- "This inquiry has a responsibility to highlight those systemic respected. I'm sure he'll appreciate that change of heart injustices that allowed the unimaginable deaths and disappear- on the part of the NDP. ances of so many women from the Downtown Eastside. The Again, as I've said, our government is putting families membership of organizations and groups like the Downtown Eastside Women's Centre and the February 14 Women's Memor- first. There is a limited amount of money and alim- ial March Committee provide the critical context necessary for ited amount of taxpayer appetite, frankly, for spending this inquiry as we knew the women and their lives." money on lawyers and their fees. We have decided to Without their participation the inquiry will be in- prioritize funding for legal representation for the fam- complete. Many fear that it will become an exercise ilies of the murdered and missing women. that generates no real answers or lessons. This inquiry That's similar to what government has done with pre- is not just about understanding what happened. It is vious inquiries such as the Braidwood Inquiry that I've also about preventing more cases of women going mis- already talked about, where we provided funding for the sing from the Downtown Eastside and other parts of mother of Mr. Dziekanski but not for other groups that British Columbia. wanted to participate. There were other people seeking Will the Premier reconsider? Will the Premier do the funding, but the government decided to put the funding right thing and allocate legal funding to support these for the families first. organizations so that they have full voice and full par- ticipation at this inquiry? Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

Hon. B. Penner: In addition to what I've already B. Ralston: Well, that limited appetite wasn't much in stated about the informal study commission compon- evidence when the government approved $6 million in ent that our government recently added to the terms legal fees for Bobby Virk and Dave Basi. of reference for the commission of inquiry, last week Once again I return to what Mr. Justice Oppal said: Commissioner Oppal was quoted on May 26 as stating "My intention was to ensure that no group with standing 7540 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

before the inquiry would be denied legal counsel at the could hear from more people. That's why we are provid- evidentiary hearings due to lack of funds" — again, for ing funding for the families to be heard in this — so that the evidentiary hearing, a considered response by the they can be represented by lawyers, just like we did in former Attorney General. the Braidwood Inquiry. Will the Premier intervene and overrule this Attorney The government is, I think, with all of these ac- General and fund those groups? tions, demonstrating in this particular aspect that we do really…. This is an incredibly important issue. We Hon. B. Penner: As the Premier noted, we are all tra- have to make sure we get to the bottom of it. And we gically touched by what happened on the Downtown have to make sure that, going forward, the Downtown Eastside and the loss of all those lives in such a senseless, Eastside is a safer place in the future than it has been tragic and, frankly, horrific way. That's why we're pleased in the past. to see a conviction entered and the sentence imposed Our government remains deeply concerned about this, upon Mr. Pickton, but we didn't want to stop there. not just with respect to the work of this inquiry but even [1415] further. We need to, as I said, look at the total burden on That's why our government appointed an inquiry of families overall. We need to make sure that low-income commission to look into whether there were systemic families in particular are doing better than they have issues that prevented Mr. Pickton's arrest at an earlier been. That's why our government has provided a whole date and his earlier conviction. So we're funding the series of rebates and made it a whole lot easier to be able commission of inquiry. to support the burden of government when you're at low We've expanded the terms of reference for the inquiry income now than it was about ten years ago. so that people can participate in the study commis- sion without the need for taxpayer-funded lawyers, so Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. that they can do that in a less adversarial way but still have their voices heard. In addition, because we are so C. James: I remind the Premier that we're talking touched by what happened and so distraught, we have about the missing women's inquiry, and the missing made funds available to provide legal representation for women's inquiry would not have happened if it weren't the families of the murdered and missing women. for those 13 groups who stood up to this government to insist on having the inquiry. These are groups and C. James: This is the government's own commis- organizations that put time, that put energy, that put sioner, appointed by the government to manage the their own resources into making sure the inquiry was very serious issue of missing women across this prov- going to be there, in making sure they would have a ince. The commissioner himself has recommended to voice to try and do everything possible to ensure that government that these groups and organizations need these kinds of things don't happen again. Now when to be funded in order to participate in this very serious they're asking for funding to fully participate, this gov- inquiry. ernment has said no. I heard the Attorney General say that it's about pri- I ask my question again to the Premier. Why won't orities, that we have to prioritize money. Well, it's very the Premier, why won't the B.C. Liberals support these clear what the B.C. Liberals have made a priority. Their groups and organizations, support the work they've done friends and insiders Basi and Virk got $6 million — and to get the inquiry so that they can fully participate? nothing for the missing women's inquiry. My question is to the Premier. If the Premier wishes Hon. C. Clark: To the former Leader of the Opposition, to put families first, here is an opportunity. Fund the many thanks again for the question. Although I was on groups and organizations today. the outside at the time, I am reliably informed…. I re- member this from my days in radio. The government Hon. C. Clark: Thanks to the member for her ques- said at the time that they would support an inquiry tion. I am very glad that the rumours of her imminent when the legal proceedings were complete. demise are turning out to be untrue. She's provided a [1420] great voice for women in British Columbia. We haven't The government kept their promise and has gone fur- always agreed on everything, but I'm delighted that she's ther, has accepted the recommendation of Commissioner continuing to take her seat in the Legislature. Oppal to expand the terms of reference to make it a study As the Attorney General has said, our government commission so that more people can be heard, and has is deeply concerned about what's happened in the followed the example that was set in the Braidwood Downtown Eastside, and that was why we appointed the Inquiry and made it possible for the families to be funded commission of inquiry in the first place. That was why and be heard at the inquiry. we took Justice Oppal's advice and expanded the terms I think those are very important steps to have taken, of reference so that it could be a study commission and and it really reflects more than anything this gov- Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7541

ernment's deep concern about the conditions in the This is not about the HST. This is about missing and Downtown Eastside. murdered women from the Downtown Eastside and All of those missing and murdered women were lost to a commissioner, a former Attorney General, who is their families and to our communities in the most tragic recommending funding for 13 groups. way possible. It's incumbent on all of us in every aspect, Why will the Premier not listen to the commissioner, in every corner of our society in British Columbia, to the former Attorney General of this province, who has care and to show that we care by doing something about recommended the funding for those 13 groups? Why it. That's what this government has done. will the Premier not fund those groups?

M. Farnworth: My question is to the Premier. This Hon. B. Penner: I've heard the opposition complain is not about the HST. This is about missing women, day after day about how much money has been spent women who were murdered at the Pickton farm. It's in the past on legal fees, and our government actually about a botched investigation. It's about mistakes that shares many of those concerns. It's why I've appointed were made and should never happen again. That's what Stephen Toope, the president of UBC and former dean this inquiry is about. It's not about the HST. of law at McGill University, to review the indemnity The individual heading up that inquiry, a former policy to get a better handle on legal fees through the Attorney General of this province — who, though we indemnity policy in the future. often disagreed with, we always respected — has said Unfortunately, we can't turn the clock back. We can't that these 13 groups should be funded. Those 13 groups put a different date stamp on a memo and set the clock know more about the Downtown Eastside than the back on that issue. What we can do is get a better handle Premier and her entire government will ever know. on expenses in the future, and that will give us more re- My question is to the Premier. Why doesn't she give sources in the future to spend on things like providing the former Attorney General, Wally Oppal, what he's representation for families in public inquiries. been asking for: that funding be provided for these 13 In this public inquiry our government is funding the groups so that we can get a report that really does ac- families. complish something? [1425]

Hon. B. Penner: I'll say it again. Our government was M. Mungall: Mr. Speaker, 13 organizations have put very touched by what happened. We watched closely, their hearts and souls into the Downtown Eastside. It and we helped fund the investigation as it took place. is because of them that we have this inquiry. They have Prosecutions were pursued, convictions were obtained, been strong advocates for their communities. They need and a sentence was imposed. I don't think Mr. Pickton to be heard at this public inquiry. They need to have the will be seeing the light of day anytime soon, and that's funding necessary to do so. appropriate. Will the Attorney General today commit to that fund- However, we didn't stop there. We felt it was import- ing? It's a simple question, and they need an answer. ant to establish an inquiry to look into whether in fact there was a botched investigation. The member has Hon. B. Penner: The member is incorrect. The- rea reached his conclusions. I'm interested in hearing the son for the public inquiry is because of the families of conclusions of the commission in that regard, and that's the murdered and missing women. It's because our gov- why we established it. We are providing funding so that ernment, like everybody in British Columbia and frankly the families of the murdered and missing women can anybody in the world that heard about this case, was directly participate with legal representation in the for- horrified about what happened. We want to find out if mal inquiry and also in the study commission, which there are lessons that we can learn so that we can prevent are the less formal hearings. something like this from happening in the future. My understanding is that Commissioner Oppal is That's why we appointed the formal inquiry, that's hoping to start those less formal hearings within weeks why we've expanded the terms of reference as requested and will be travelling to northern British Columbia to by Commissioner Oppal, and that's why we're provid- do so. ing legal representation for the families of the murdered and missing women. I want to get the results as soon as Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. possible so that if there are lessons to learn, if there are policies and procedures between the police forces that M. Farnworth: Commissioner Oppal knows what need to be changed, I want that information as quickly as he's doing. He asked for funding for a reason. When possible so that we can make improvements in the future the Premier has been asked about this funding, she has and stop something like this from happening again. talked about wanting to make things better, and she has talked about the HST. [End of question period.] 7542 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

Petitions J. Brar: I also rise to submit a petition signed by Surrey residents concerned about the negative impact of N. Macdonald: I would like to present a petition lack of school space on our education system and call- signed by almost 300 residents of Golden asking for safe ing on the government to do two things: first, allow for access to Donald and Dejorie roads. The petitioners are an exception to the current funding formula to address very concerned about the proposed intersection as it Surrey schools' imminent needs in this year's capital joins the Trans-Canada within the current highway up- plan and, second, to review and change capital funding grades as part of the Donald Bridge project. policies for schools to ensure that they continue meeting Surrey's ongoing growth needs. H. Lali: I'd like to present a petition with nearly 500 signatures from residents of the Botanie Valley Reports from Committees near Lytton. "NorthWest Organics LP, a company with strong links to some Hon. R. Coleman: I have the honour to present the Lower Mainland waste management businesses, is in the process of constructing what we believe to be an industrial composting first report of the SpecialC ommittee of Selection for the facility on a local ranch. third session of the 39th parliament. "We the undersigned residents and friends of Botanie Valley I move that the report be taken as read and received. respectfully request that the government of British Columbia immediately enforce a construction moratorium on the proposed Motion approved. facility pending the completion of a B.C. government environ- mental impact study." Hon. R. Coleman: I ask leave of the House to move a B. Ralston: I'm filing a petition from Surrey motion to adopt the report. residents concerned about the negative impact of in- adequate school space on our education system and Leave granted. calling on the government to (1) allow for an excep- tion to the current funding formula to address Surrey Hon. R. Coleman: I move that the report be adopted. schools' immediate needs in this year's capital plan, and (2) review and change capital funding policies for Motion approved. schools to ensure that they continue meeting Surrey's ongoing growth. H. Bains: Presenting petitions.

D. Black: I rise to present a petition signed by a number Mr. Speaker: Proceed. of residents in New Westminster urging this Legislature to adopt endangered species legislation that protects species Petitions at risk by protecting their habitat, including transparency and accountability in the legislation. H. Bains: These are petitions from Surrey residents concerned about the negative impact of inadequate R. Austin: I also have a petition from Surrey residents school space on our education system, who are calling concerned about the negative impact of inadequate on government to address Surrey schools' immediate school space on their education system who are call- needs in this year's capital plan, and to review and change ing for the government to do two things: to allow for capital funding policies for schools to ensure that they an exemption to the current funding formula to address continue meeting Surrey's ongoing growth. Surrey schools' immediate needs in this year's capital All of them add up to 659 petitions today. These are in plan and, secondly, to review and change capital funding addition to a petition that was presented here from the policies for schools to ensure that they continue meeting member for Surrey–White Rock calling for the same. Surrey's ongoing growth. Orders of the Day S. Hammell: I also rise to present a petition from Surrey residents concerned about the negative impact Hon. R. Coleman: The business in this House this of inadequate school space on our education system. afternoon will be Motion 9, judicial compensation, and They are calling on the government to allow for excep- then Motion 10, judicial compensation. Following that tions to the current funding formula to address Surrey will be Motion 11 to deal with the HST. schools' immediate needs in this year's capital plan, In Committee A this afternoon we will be doing the es- and to review and change capital funding policies for timates of the Ministry of Health to completion, followed schools to ensure that they continue meeting Surrey's by the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, ongoing growth. the Ministry of Attorney General and the Ministry of [1430] Children and Family Development. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7543

Government Motions on Notice I'd like to take a few moments to speak to this mo- tion respecting the compensation that is paid to the MOTION 9 — GOVERNMENT RESPONSE province's Provincial Court judges. The process that is TO JUDGES COMPENSATION followed to determine their compensation is necessarily COMMISSION REPORT RECOMMENDATIONS different from collective bargaining. The reason for this is the need to ensure that judges Hon. B. Penner: I move Motion 9 standing in my are, and are seen to be, independent of government. name on the orders of the day. Indeed, judicial independence is a cornerstone of our [That pursuant to section 6(2) of the Judicial Compensation Act justice system. It is critical to our democracy so that any- the Legislative Assembly reject seven of the fifteen recommen- one accused of a crime or who challenges government dations of the Final Report of the 2010 British Columbia Judges Compensation Commission as laid before this Assembly on May 3, before the courts can be sure that their case will be de- 2011, as unfair and unreasonable for the reasons outlined in the cided based on its merits. Government Response to the Report of the 2010 Judges Compensa- This principle of judicial independence as it applies to tion Commission filed in this House today: setting judicial officers' compensation has been affirmed 1. The recommended salary increase for April 1, 2013 to March in numerous court judgments. Guidance has been given 31, 2014 of an amount based on the cumulative change in the British Columbia Consumer Price Index (the “BC-CPI”) over the to governments by the Supreme Court of Canada re- preceding three-year period is rejected. The salary increase for specting an appropriate process to follow. What is most April 1, 2013 to March 31, 2014 is set at zero. important is that governments and judges do not en- 2. The recommended increase in the pension accrual rate for gage in bargaining over judges' compensation. Instead, a judges from 3% to 3.5% effective April 1, 2013 is rejected. The process has been determined whereby government and pension accrual rate is set at 3%. representatives of the judiciary make representations 3. The recommended increase in the pension contribution period for judges from age 71 to age 75 effectiveA pril 1, 2011 is rejected. to the independent commissions. In British Columbia The end of the pension contribution period is set at age 71. there's one for judges and one for JJPs, better known as 4. The recommendation that the cost of long-term disability ben- judicial justices of the peace. efits be separately funded by government outside of the budget of These commissions in turn make recommendations the Office of the Chief Judge is rejected. The method for budget- to government setting out what the commissions believe ing the cost of long-term disability benefits will remain within the budget of the Office of the Chief Judge. would be the appropriate salaries and benefits for judges 5. The recommendation that long-term disability benefits be and JJPs for a three-year period. This process unfolds ac- extended to judges to age 75, effectiveA pril 1, 2011 is rejected but cording to the broad constitutional direction set by the in substitution the long term disability benefits to judges will be Supreme Court of Canada, as well as the more detailed extended to age 75 commencing on April 1, 2013. provisions contained in the British Columbia Judicial 6. The recommendation that judges be enrolled in the govern- Compensation Act. Governments are not bound to ac- ment flexible benefits plan, effective April 1, 2011 is rejected but in substitution the judges will be enrolled in the government flex- cept commission recommendations, but if they wish to ible benefits plan, commencing April 1, 2013. depart from them, they must clearly articulate a rational 7. The recommendation that, effective April 1, 2011, the Senior reason for the rejection. Judges Program be expanded by an amendment to the Judicial In B.C. we have provided in the Judicial Compensation Compensation Act is rejected. The recommendation to increase Act that government must find a recommenda- the possible number of sitting days for senior part-time judges at the discretion of the Chief Judge, with a three-year “sunset clause” tion to be unfair or unreasonable in order to reject it. is rejected. The following recommendation is substituted: Government's responses, which have been appended to a. the Legislative Assembly accepts in principle that part- these motions, contain more detail respecting the cri- time judges should be permitted to exceed the existing teria for government to follow in rejecting commission remuneration caps but recognizes this requires legisla- tive amendment at a future sitting and is outside the recommendations. scope of the Judges Compensation Commission; [1435] b. the Legislative Assembly recommends that the Before I address government's response to the 2010 remuneration caps limiting a senior part-time judge’s Judges Compensation Commission, let me first say a few salary to no more than 40% of the salary of a full-time sitting judge and the combination of salary and pension words about the judges of the Provincial Court. I haven't benefits to no more than 100% of the salary of a full- been in my role very long as Attorney General, but it is time sitting judge be removed; a great privilege for me to have the opportunity to work c. the Legislative Assembly recommends that a future with the Provincial Court judiciary. legislative amendment should allow the Chief Judge, using discretion and if adequate budgetary resources I first encountered them, I think, during my first exist, to authorize one or more part-time judges to summer of articles between first- and second-year law provide coverage to meet urgent and unforeseen needs school when working in Chilliwack for a private law resulting from illness or injury; and firm, and over that time I've had the experience of ap- d. the Legislative Assembly also accepts that these changes should be reviewed after three years. pearing before many of them. I'm always impressed with That the Legislative Assembly accept the remaining recommen- the dedication, innovation and commitment that our dations contained in the report.] bench devotes to the public. 7544 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

Responding to the reports of the two compensation salary of judges for the 2013-14 year, as well as the prior commissions is challenging in many ways. The respect two years, is fair and reasonable. Of further considera- we have for the processes established for determining tion is the uncertainty regarding the financial impacts judicial compensation as an aspect of preserving judi- that government may face as a result of the harmon- cial independence governs our decision-making, but so ized sales tax referendum being conducted in June of do the fiscal imperatives that government is operating this year. within. Government has endeavoured to be fair-minded, We have accepted some very minor benefit adjust- reasonable and thoughtful about a response to these im- ments that would allow the judges to benefit from some portant reports. of the benefit programs available to others in the public In considering what is fair and reasonable, we have sector, such as the flexible benefits programs and long- developed our recommendations in the context of the term disability. But we recommend those adjustments at current fiscal climate and the impact that has had on a later date — again, to be fair to the broader public sec- salary and benefits throughout the public sector. The tor, which will not be seeing benefit increases until 2013 details of the reasoning in relation to these issues are at the earliest. contained in the response documents that I filed on the I'll take my seat and await the remarks of my learned 25th of May, 2011, when I filed the notices of motion.I 'd friend. like to highlight some of the general principles you will see in our reasoning. [L. Reid in the chair.] Government has determined that it must limit com- pensation increases paid by public funds. A compensation L. Krog: I'm delighted to rise to this today. The issue arrangement for judges that provides protection against of compensation for positions of importance in our so- inflation is not consistent with this determination, nor ciety — and certainly Provincial Court judges are very are substantial increases in benefits. Protection against high on that list — is always problematic. The Attorney inflation has not been offered to employees in the pub- General has commented to some extent on the history lic service. In pursuing its approach to deficit reduction, of Provincial Court judge salaries. Between '92 and '97 the government has established a net-zero public sector they remained constant at $118,402 a year. compensation mandate. This mandate is an across-the- [1440] board measure affecting every person who is paid from Commission recommendations were adopted the public purse. in 1998. They were increased to $134,000 that year, A similar approach is fair and reasonable for Provincial $139,000 in 1999 and $144,000 in 2000, and then there Court judges. The SupremeC ourt of Canada recognized, have been increases since. Judges can currently earn in the P.E.I. reference case, that the guarantee of a min- $231,128 annually. Supreme Court judges are set at imum acceptable level of judicial remuneration is not a $271,400 per year. device to shield the courts from the effects of deficit -re Now, there's always been a teasing sort of competi- duction. The court recognized that "nothing would be tion between the Provincial and Supreme courts in this more damaging to the reputation of the judiciary and province. When I say teasing, it's reflected in the back- the administration of justice than a perception that room chat of lawyers in the barristers' lounges, etc., that judges were not shouldering their share of the burden in Supreme Court judges have it easier and Provincial difficult economic times." Court judges do all the work, and it's even easier in the Judicial compensation has increased significantly in Court of Appeal. recent years. In 2004 judges' salaries were $161,250 a Like most things in life, there may be a tiny bit of truth year. They are now $231,138 annually. This is a cumula- in all of that, but it's not necessarily accurate or fair. tive increase of 43.3 percent since 2004. This substantial The reality is that ProvincialC ourt judges in the court- increase flows from the 2004 and 2007 judicial compen- room are working very hard. The numbers of cases sation commission recommendations. Although the they have to face now are substantial. The subject of the current net-zero mandate established by government Charter in criminal cases has made, I would say to some does not extend as far as the judges commission, the cur- extent, the lives of Provincial Court judges extremely dif- rent economic climate dictates this response for the entire ficult; 90 percent of the criminal cases in the province are term of the commission's recommendations. If all judges dealt with in Provincial Court. Often those cases involve commission recommendations are accepted, the three- significant Charter arguments. Cases that many years year total cost to government would be $6.86 million. ago might have been dealt with in a morning — an im- I want to be clear that the costs I'm discussing relate paired case — now can take a day or two or three, with to the cost of judges only. These are the only costs the numerous experts potentially giving evidence. government's decision is based on. Charter defences to all kinds of cases arise, and quite In light of the present uncertain fiscal situation for appropriately. The Charter protects our rights and government, a recommendation of no increase in the freedoms. That's why we call it the Charter of Rights Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7545

and Freedoms. However, that means that judges are set at $248,057. That's above the national average, of dealing with very difficult issues and, of course, face course, as we are here in British Columbia, the na- the inevitable appeals to the Supreme Court or the tional average being $214,360. B.C. Court of Appeal eventually, if things get really The subject of compensation will always be difficult, hot and heavy. but there is a time when, in the circumstances that we One cannot question that they are doing their job are, it is hard to suggest that these recommendations are and are working hard, but many British Columbians are appropriate. in the same position and in positions of importance. I [1445] am referring only to those who are in salaried positions. There is some suggestion that it would be appropriate I'm not talking about the small business person facing to get Provincial Court judges, without it being men- a struggling economy. The small business people in my tioned directly, up to approximately 90 percent of the community are probably no doubt feeling the effect of level of Supreme Court judges. That would be a very sig- a 16 percent unemployment rate in Nanaimo. I'm talk- nificant figure. ing about people who are in senior positions, whether The other thing is that from a taxpayers' perspective, that be in the public service generally, in the judiciary, one has to ask the question…. The judges are defeat- on the boards of Crown corporations, including ICBC, ing themselves, in a sense, when I say this. The concept B.C. Hydro, etc. of compensation is often related to the quality of talent At $231,000 per annum, that is, by everyone's stan- you wish to attract. That is a presumption. The more dard, a lot of money. At a time when we are saying you pay, the greater the quality of the people who will to the public service generally — or, more properly seek the position. speaking, the government is saying to the public ser- The reality is…. Speaking as someone called to the bar vice generally — that this is not an appropriate time in 1980 in this province, my observation, for what it's for an increase, one is stuck in a very difficult position worth, is that the quality of the judiciary in this province to be able to turn and say to a group that is already at every level of the courts — but I think, most obviously amongst the highest income-earners in the province, and most particularly, at the Provincial Court level — notwithstanding the difficult job they have, that "it's has increased significantly. okay; we're going to give you a substantial increase" — You do not get some of the radical decisions or the which in percentage terms looks large and in actual less-tempered individuals that I experienced in my dollar terms looks extremely significant to the average younger years. They don't get appointed anymore. We British Columbian. have a fairly good system, in my view, of appointing I know that some years ago in the former config- judges to the Provincial Court. I don't have to talk uration of my constituency, Nanaimo's average family about the other levels of court, but certainly provin- income was $49,000 per annum. It was the third-poorest cially we have a fairly good system. It requires a broad constituency in the province of British Columbia. That consultation with respected members of the bar and is family income. That assumes the possibility that par- other professionals in the community. ents and one or two of the so-called standard family of The fact is that we have a good talent pool. I do not four children are indeed working. see a lot of Provincial Court judges retiring to go back Moreover, I am moved by what the Attorney General into private practice. I certainly am not aware of — and had to say about what the cost of this would be. if there was, I'm sure the Attorney General would have I have complained in this chamber on many occa- pointed it out to me already — any significant lack of ap- sions, and will continue to do so, about the significant plications for the Provincial Court judiciary. lack of Provincial Court judges in this province. We I see the Attorney General nodding sagely as I am know we are down by at least 17 judges in the province, saying this, which confirms what many of us believe. if you accept even the most minimalist figures. At $1½ Having been consulted from time to time myself or million per annum to fund a Provincial Court judge, asked if I would be prepared to recommend or vouch approximately — including the court, the staff, sheriffs, for applicants, there are a significant number of very all those necessary to support our justice system — the able lawyers in this province who are prepared to increase alone would more than cover the costs of four undertake the significant responsibilities of sitting on new appointments. the Provincial Court bench. That is a significant number. It is a number that At this time I think the government is essentially tak- you cannot ignore. Moreover, I appreciate that the ing the correct course. I know the Attorney General may judges in a perfect world would receive the raise that fall off his chair at those remarks, of course, but that is,I has been recommended and should probably get it. think, the fairest thing I can say. That is not to say, how- But currently our courts in British Columbia pay, for ever, that the opposition is happy with the conduct of Provincial Court judges, the second-highest after the this government with respect to appointments to the province of Ontario. In the province of Ontario it's bench in general, as I mentioned earlier. 7546 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

The reality is that we are facing a significant - prob Debate Continued lem in the Provincial Court: a high demand for court time, an unusual number of cases — probably, by most Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the estimates, in the range of 2,000 cases in the Provincial minister closes debate. Court criminal division that may be tossed because of the Askov line of cases. Justice delayed is not just justice Hon. B. Penner: I appreciate the comments from denied; it is justice dismissed. That is what will happen the opposition Attorney General critic. At this point, I with these cases. would move Motion 9. The concept that one has to wait months and months to have difficult family cases heard in Provincial Court Motion approved. is not a compliment to our system. It is not a situation that can continue. The fact that so many people continue MOTION 10 — GOVERNMENT RESPONSE to have to appear and in increasing numbers appear in TO JUDICIAL JUSTICES COMPENSATION Provincial Court unaided by the benefit of having an ad- COMMISSION REPORT RECOMMENDATIONS vocate, a lawyer, on their behalf is nothing other than a blemish on our system. Hon. B. Penner: I move Motion 10 standing in my Having said that, many of the Provincial Court judges name on the orders of the day. will no doubt argue that that is what makes their job dif- [That pursuant to section 6(2) of the Judicial Compensation Act ficult, which is why they would merit the compensation the Legislative Assembly reject six out of the ten recommenda- tions of the Report and Recommendations of the 2010 British Col- increase they are seeking. It is because they are having umbia Judicial Justices Compensation Commission as laid before to deal so often with unrepresented litigants in small this Assembly on May 3, 2011, as unfair and unreasonable for claims or family court and unrepresented accused in the reasons outlined in Government Response to the Report of Provincial Court criminal division. the 2010 Judicial Justices Compensation Commission filed in this House today: All of that makes the job difficult, but it is simply not 1. The recommended salary increase for full-time JJPs for April the time. Although in the best of worlds we would be in 1, 2013 to March 31, 2014 of 8% is rejected as unreasonable and a position to simply okay the commission's recommen- unfair. The salary increase for April 1, 2013 to March 31, 2014 is dations, that is not the case. I think it is most important, set at zero. when you set up these kinds of commissions to make 2. The recommendation amending the compensation formula for recommendations about salary, that wherever possible per diem JJPs is rejected. The compensation formula for per diem JJPs will remain unchanged. they be followed. 3. The recommendation that the compensation formula for per In this case the process is very clear. The government diem JJPs should be applied equally to ad hoc JJPs is rejected. The has had to respond and take a position on it. The op- compensation formula for ad hoc JJPs will remain unchanged. position, very conscious of the importance of the work 4. The recommended increase in the professional development done by our Provincial Court bench, nevertheless has allowance from $1,000 to $1,500 effectiveA pril 1, 2011 is rejected. The allowance will remain at $1,000. to reluctantly in these times and these circumstances 5. The recommended extension of the professional development agree with the motion brought forward by the Attorney allowance to per diem and ad hoc JJPs is rejected as unfair and General, and the opposition will be supporting it unreasonable. The allowance will continue to be available to full- accordingly. time JJPs only. [1450] 6. The recommendation to enrol full-time JJPs in the flexible benefits program, effective April 1, 2011 is rejected but in substi- tution full-time JJPs will be enrolled in the flexible benefits pro- Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, the member for gram commencing April 1, 2013. Burnaby North seeks leave to make an introduction. That the Legislative Assembly accepts the remaining recommen- dations contained in the report.] Leave granted. Madam Speaker, much of the same reasoning applies to the government's response to the Judicial Justices Introductions by Members Compensation Commission, as was just articulated in response to Motion 9, so many of those comments apply, R. Lee: Madam Speaker, joining us in the House particularly with respect to the fiscal environment faced today — actually, right now in the gallery — are 56 by the government. members of the Lee's Association of Vancouver, led by If all the Judicial Justices Commission recom- chair Maurice Lee. Lee is the most common Chinese mendations are accepted, the three-year total cost surname and probably one of the most used in the to government would be about $448,000. Again, world. The Lee's Association of Vancouver was estab- government has a difficult balancing act to do. The lished 81 years ago to serve the community. Would the men and women who serve as judicial justices of the House please join me to give our guests a very warm peace perform an invaluable role, but our response welcome. to compensation and benefit increases is shaped by Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7547

the broader fiscal challenges that government is cur- Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members, the member for rently facing. Surrey-Newton seeks leave to make an introduction. Further details are laid out in the documents sup- porting Motion 10 that I filed last week. Leave granted.

L. Krog: In response to this motion, I can indicate Introductions by Members quite clearly that the opposition is, likewise, supporting it. I would be remiss, though, if I didn't make some com- H. Bains: In the vicinity we have 25 grade 10 stu- ment about some of the changes the government has dents from Ecole Gabrielle-Roy School, along with Ms. made with respect to judicial justices of the peace. Samantha Marshall, and there are five parents along In a more complex world, it is now recognized, essen- with them. Please help me welcome them to this beauti- tially, that you don't get to any position unless you have ful House. the formal training and qualification.A nd it struck me, of course, that someone like one of the most distinguished Debate Continued of British Columbians, the late Roderick Haig-Brown, would never be appointed a justice of peace as he was, Deputy Speaker: Seeing no further speakers, the because he lacked that formal legal training. minister closes debate. That aside, that is a decision that government has made in the last while, so we now are in a position Hon. B. Penner: I move Motion 10. where the individuals who are JPs, as they're commonly called, are in fact lawyers, legally trained, by and large, Motion approved. obviously; able to do their job; familiar with some of the complexities of the law — even at the less stress- Hon. I. Chong: Now I'll call Motion 11. ful level, if you will, of work that they are required to undertake, keeping in mind, of course, that their hours MOTION 11 — GOVERNMENT CHANGES are not necessarily the hours that one would want to TO HARMONIZED SALES TAX keep. It's not a nine-to-five job, as theA ttorney General well knows. Hon. K. Falcon: It's my pleasure to rise in the House Nevertheless, my comments with respect to the judi- this afternoon in support of the motion I tabled late last ciary and the Provincial Court judges apply here as well. week, a motion that through legislative intent confirms It is difficult in circumstances where others are being the intention of this government to move forward with asked to receive no increase or, indeed, face a lack of a series of improvements to the HST on a schedule that I employment or dismissal. It is hard to argue that others will talk about in a little more detail in a moment. who are in a position — notwithstanding how import- [That the Legislative Assembly authorizes and directs that the ant it is in the community — that many of us would Minister of Finance must act as follows: like to be in…. It is hard to advocate for an increase for (a) In relation to the Comprehensive Integrated Tax Coordination Agreement entered into between British Columbia and Canada them at the present time. on November 30, 2009, further amended on March 2, 2010, to That's not to say that that may not happen. We are authorize Canada to introduce a Harmonized Sales Tax (HST) in not talking about a lot of money overall, according to British Columbia effective July 1, 2010, of which the provincial the Attorney General — less than a half-million dollars. portion of that rate is 7%, the Minister of Finance must: (i) immediately advise the Minister of Finance for the Easy for me to say; not easy for the average person of Government of Canada that, in the case that the the public to hear it. But it wouldn't even be a round- Chief Electoral Officer announces that the result of ing error in the Ministry of Attorney General's overall the Harmonized Sales Tax referendum held under budget, in fairness. the Referendum Act commencing June 13, 2011 is that more than 50% of the validly cast ballots vote “No” on Nevertheless, the recommended increase of 8 per- the question, then the desire of British Columbia is to cent is just too substantial to face. That increase in real amend the provincial portion of the HST rate in British dollar terms is roughly, I gather, about $8,000, prop- Columbia to the following: erly speaking, I believe, if you're looking at a JP earning (A) 6% effective July 1, 2012; and roughly $91,000 or a hundred thousand dollars a year. (B) 5% effective July 1, 2014. (ii) seek to conclude arrangements with the Government of Again, that's a significant amount of money for the Canada that reflect the conditions and rates in section average British Columbian. Notwithstanding the valu- (a) of this motion as soon as possible. able and important work they do in our system, it is (b) If the Chief Electoral Officer announces that the result of the only appropriate, I think, that the government receive Harmonized Sales Tax referendum is that more than 50% of the the support of the opposition, again, with respect to validly cast ballots vote “No” on the question, the Minister of Finance must do the following: Motion 10. (i) introduce by the end of the 2011 calendar year, or as [1455] soon as possible thereafter, measures in cooperation 7548 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

with the Government of Canada, that will result in one- spoken and clearly written account of the HST. I called time transitional assistance payments being made to it sort of the good, the bad and the indifferent, with re- British Columbians as follows: (A) $175.00 for each child under the age of 18 years; spect to the HST. (B) $175.00 for each single senior person with an Of course, while it commented on many of the annual income up to $40,000.00, the benefit positive aspects of the HST — the international trend being gradually phased out at annual incomes moving towards what are called value-added taxes or over $40,000.00; and (C) $350.00 for each senior couple with an annual harmonized sales taxes and why countries around the family income up to $40,000.00, the benefit world are doing that and why a majority of the provinces, being gradually phased out at annual incomes representing 80 percent of the population, have done over $40,000.00. that here in Canada — it also talked about one of the The Minister ofF inance shall use existing appropria- key downsides, if you will, with respect to the HST. And tions within Budget 2011 to finance such transition payments in section (b)(i)(A),(B) and (C). that was that the HST was costing the average family, on (ii) Prepare and introduce to the Legislative Assembly for average, about $350 more per year. approval, a bill to amend the Income Tax Act that would So one of the things that we agreed we would do moving increase the provincial corporation income tax rate to forward, as I mentioned, is engage in, under the direction 12%, from 10%, effective January 1, 2012. (iii) Delay the introduction of the planned change referred of the Premier, the largest public listening exercise that to in the 2011 Budget speech to reduce the small any government, I would argue, has ever engaged in, in business income tax rate from 2.5% to 0% on April 1, the history of the province of British Columbia. 2012.] It included the usual sort of form of public engage- This comes about as a result of the fact that next ment — countless meetings with stakeholder groups month British Columbians will be voting on what may — and that's to be expected. And it included, of course, be the biggest public policy decision they have ever been an on-line survey with over 5,000 British Columbians directly involved in. Of course, I'm talking about the taking part. But what is really unique about this listen- harmonized sales tax, which I, along with many others, ing exercise is that for the first time in the history of our continue to believe is absolutely sound fiscal and tax province, it engaged technology in a way it has never policy and the right direction for our province, for our been used before. It engaged technology through the future and our children's future. telephone town halls. A lot has changed over the last few months. We have a [1500] new Premier in British Columbia — one who recognizes I hear a little bit of piping up coming from the NDP that families are at the very core of our communities and, opposition leader, apparently uncomfortable with the indeed, at the very core of our province. use of this new technology. But I can tell you as Minister We both agreed when we engaged in initial discus- of Finance and Deputy Premier, it was remarkable — sions about HST that we needed a new approach with the result of utilization of that technology. the HST, a new approach that starts with, first of all, lis- We, along with my colleagues the MLA for Peace tening to the public, listening to families on how we can River South and the MLA for Prince George–Mackenzie, improve the HST — again, a public policy that we be- listened to over 275,000 British Columbians and an- lieve is a very sound tax policy for this province. And swered their questions in a series of almost one dozen two, and perhaps just as importantly, is making sure telephone town halls in every part of the province. But that we get independent facts, real facts, out to the pub- what was really interesting to me is that of all the house- lic so that the public can make an informed decision holds we contacted, it was absolutely common that we when they vote with respect to the HST on the referen- would have anywhere from two-thirds to three-quarters dum that will be forthcoming. of the individuals who picked up their phones staying Now, this started, of course, with the appointment of on the telephone line for up to an average of 17 minutes an independent panel — a panel that was chaired by to listen in and participate in an issue of major tax policy, Jim Dinning, a former treasurer of the Alberta govern- being the HST. ment. It included such luminaries as Tracy Redies, the We heard two things coming out of that loud and clear. CEO of Coast Capital, one of the largest credit unions The first is getting information, factual information out in the country. to the public. And why was that important? Because one I had included a former Auditor General of B.C., of the things that the on-line surveys certainly showed George Morfitt, who served a couple of terms as a very us is that even today there is still an enormous amount highly regarded Auditor General in B.C. It included a of misinformation with respect to the HST. public policy professional from Simon Fraser University I'll give you some examples from the on-line survey. and former NDP MLA, as it happens, who also provided Some 61 percent of those surveyed, for example, think some very important advice into this. that basic groceries have gone up under the HST, when The report was widely applauded, even by critics, as a there has been absolutely no change to basic groceries. result of its even-handedness. It was an unbiased, plain- Half think that gas prices have gone up due to the HST, Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7549 when in fact we're spending about $270 million a year to that allowed us to meet and continue to meet our balanced- ensure that the tax component of HST had no impact on budget targets. That is something that's required by law, a gasoline and on filling your car. law that we introduced and we're proud of, and something Forty-eight percent of people thought electronics in- that maintains the confidence of the investment commun- creased after the HST. In fact, it's exactly the same as it ity and the rating agencies. was under the PST and GST, remembering, of course, We also wanted to mirror how the federal govern- that we had a 7 percent PST and a 5 percent GST. Thirty- ment marched their rate down on the GST from 7 to four percent of people thought that prescription drug 5 percent. They did it over three years, and we're mir- prices had increased. Not true. Exactly the same as it roring the same approach in our approach. So the first 1 was under the PST and GST. percent cut would kick in on July 1 of next year, and that And 36 percent of people thought that the resale of would drop the HST to 11 percent in British Columbia. homes had increased, and one in four thought that new The second 1 percent would come off on July 1, 2014, for homes less than $525,000 had increased. Not true on a full 2 percent reduction, or a flat 10 percent HST in all counts. The resale of homes, whether family homes British Columbia. or condominiums, has absolutely no HST associated To bridge and transition families and modest- and with them. New homes, of course, have no change up low-income seniors to that first rate cut that will take to $525,000, and there is only an additional cost beyond place on July 1 of next year, we will provide transition the $525,000 threshold. cheques of $175 per child for all families in the province So that was very important to us. As the Minister of British Columbia. For a typical family with two chil- of Finance, I can tell you that making sure the public dren, that's $350 that will be provided to transition and has the facts before they make a decision like this is bridge them to that first rate cut on July 1 of next year. important to me. It's also important to me on the re- The same goes for low- and modest-income seniors. bate side, because there are 1.1 million lower-income Those that are earning under $40,000 a year will also re- British Columbians that are receiving HST rebates, ceive $175 transition cheques to again bridge them to which are rebates from the province, who were not re- that first rate cut on July 1 next year. ceiving those rebates prior to the HST back in the GST That's important because, as the independent panel plus PST days. noted, even with a 1 percent rate cut, the majority of I use the example regularly of the single mom from families are now better off under an 11 percent HST Kamloops earning $24,000 a year with three kids, and than they are under a 12 percent PST plus GST. Even that single mom got absolutely zero in terms of rebates more important, under a fully implemented 10 percent under the old PST-GST model. But under the HST, she HST every family — regardless of income, from the low- is entitled to a full $230 not just for herself but for every est to the highest — comes out a net beneficiary, to the single one of her children under 18. That is $920 more tune of about $120 a year to the good, as a result of a 10 per year to help deal with the harmonization and the percent HST, not the 12 percent PST plus GST that the introduction of the HST. opposition and some others are pushing. I believe that single mom in Kamloops or Prince We are also, in response to what we heard from the George or the Downtown Eastside, or wherever she may public, rebalancing the equation — rebalancing the be, needs to know that when she's making a vote, she's equation in recognition that the HST is a significant making an informed vote to understand and know that benefit to the small business and large business com- we won't have to have people coming to us after the fact, munities. We've certainly heard that loud and clear from after the vote, and saying to me: "Minister of Finance, the business sector — how supportive they are. why didn't you tell me that I would be losing those kinds But we wanted to make sure that we rebalanced the of rebates as a result of voting to get rid of the HST?" equation so that we could continue to meet our bal- That is an obligation that I take very seriously, and anced-budget objectives and ensure that we retain the I would have hoped that the opposition, which that triple-A credit rating that we fought hard to rebuild often pretends they're on the side of lower-income folks, after a decade of NDP government that saw it knocked would also have stood up to make sure that information down on multiple occasions and saw a decade in the is being shared with those groups. Unfortunately, that is 1990s where we had eight out of ten budgets running not happening. fiscal deficits. That is certainly not an era that we want As a government, the other thing we did is listen to what to go back to. the public told us on those telephone town halls, and we We believe that the increase of the general corpor- responded. Last week, on May 25, we committed to march ate tax rate from 10 to 12 percent, though certainly the HST rate down to 10 percent in two stages. not something we would ever be generally happy with [1505] supporting, is a modest rebalancing that enjoys the We did this in two stages because we wanted to make support of the business community for the reasons that sure we could do it in a fiscally responsible way, in a way I've enumerated earlier — the fact that they on balance 7550 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

receive a significant benefit as a result of harmonizing someone isn't better off. So they'll talk about someone the HST. that needs to get their roof replaced. Perspective here, of course, is important, because Well, I acknowledge there are times when you're when I first got elected in 2001 along with our- gov getting your roof replaced, and we should acknow- ernment and we formed government for the first time, ledge that under HST, even at 10 percent, that will we inherited a general corporate tax rate from the op- have an additional cost for families. That's something position NDP that was at 16½ percent. Over the years we should be very upfront about. But what they often we have marched that rate down to 10 percent, with forget to talk about is where families benefit from a 10 our friends opposite voting against every one of those percent HST. All clothing is now going to be cheaper reductions, to the point where today we do have a 10 — not 12, but 10 percent. All electronics — the iPads, percent general corporate tax rate — one of the lowest iPods, whatever folks are buying, big-screen TVs in the country. — will now be 10 percent, not 12 percent. Clothing Importantly, the increase that we are putting through — sorry, I mentioned clothing. Furniture will be 10 on July 1 of next year is timed to come into effect at the percent, not 12 percent. same time the federal government is reducing its share More interestingly, buying new and used cars. If of the general corporate tax rate by 1½ percent, which you're buying…. means that the net change for B.C. businesses will be a half-percent increase — something that the business Interjection. community has widely advised me is certainly manage- able from their point of view. Hon. K. Falcon: I appear to have the attention of the But the small business tax rate is important too. You member for Yale-Lillooet. He should listen to this, be- know, small business, as frankly both sides of the House cause I can tell you in rural B.C. where they're buying are fond of pointing out, is the engine of our economy. pickup trucks…. Under the NDP, they introduced what Our small business approach in British Columbia is they called the luxury tax of 3 percent. Every vehicle be- that we want to see our small businesses become large ing sold over $30,000 was considered a luxury in the NDP businesses. world. When we got elected, we moved that up to $55,000 Again, when I got elected in 2001…. In fact, in the late because we felt it's not a luxury to be paying $30,000 for a '90s while the Leader of the Opposition was actually the new car. So we moved it up to $55,000. chief of staff to the government, British Columbia had Under 12 percent HST, the luxury tax is gone. Under an almost 9 percent small business tax rate. That rate to- a 10 percent HST, if you're paying $60,000 to $65,000 day in British Columbia is 2½ percent, the third-lowest for a new vehicle, you're paying 10 percent instead of 15 in the country. percent under the PST-GST luxury tax option that the More importantly, we said that we want to make sure NDP want to go back to. That is a saving of over several that the threshold for what defines a small business thousand dollars for families. That is an example you is changed. Again, in 2001 the threshold was that only can look for on the benefit side. companies that had income up to $200,000 could qualify I acknowledge that you can give examples. I know a for that lower small business tax rate. We increased that cup of coffee will increase by 20 cents or so.I know that a to $500,000 so that in British Columbia a company earn- fast-food meal will go up perhaps 80 cents on a typical $8 ing up to $500,000 is considered a small business and will meal even under a 10 percent HST, but there are signifi- benefit from the third-lowest rate in the country. cant benefits — $1.7 billion worth of benefits every year [1510] to families in lower prices as a result of a 10 percent HST, Our commitment going forward is that we will make instead of going back to a 12 percent PST-GST. no change in the small business rate. We will not con- It is important — you hear a little bit of laughing on tinue with the planned further reduction we were going the other side — to understand the totality now of the to do on April 1 of next year to reduce that rate to zero. NDP agenda as we understand it for our small busi- Again, we are going to make sure that we balance our ness community. One, as the Leader of the Opposition budget in 2013-14 as we've committed to do and that we pointed out when he was running for leadership of his do that in a responsible way. party, he wants to roll back all the business tax rates to As I discussed earlier, the independent panel pointed 2008 levels. So let's recap what that means. That means out what the impact on average families was, but they an 80 percent increase in the small business tax rate. also pointed out — and we've also pointed out — that Two, it means an increase in the general corporate tax every family at every income level is better off under a rate to 12 percent. I'll give him a pass on that because 10 percent HST than they are under 12 percent PST plus we're doing the same thing, as I pointed out. GST. What you'll hear from the opposition and what I Thirdly, he wants to bring back the corporate capital hear during question period every day is that they'll sort tax. If anyone can remember that, that was the biggest of scour the landscape looking for examples of where red flag to investors in the 1990s when they brought that Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7551

in. It scares away capital faster than almost any other tax ing $2,417, a 29 percent reduction — almost $1,000. A change you can talk about. It's such a bad tax that the family of four earning $30,000 — again, low-income federal government actually provided transition dol- family of four, earning $30,000 — paid $3,739 under the lars to provinces like British Columbia and Ontario and previous NDP government. Today, under a B.C. Liberal others to move and get rid of that job-killer tax called government, $2,087 — a 44 percent reduction. On and the corporate capital tax. on I could go. The final piece of the HST — I called it a trifecta of I do think that in a debate like this it's probably bet- economic damage. But it's actually a quadfecta, now ter to listen to the job creators of our province, and I that I think about it. It's to go back to a PST-GST at 12 want to quote from some of them. Mark Startup, the percent and hammer the small business and large busi- president of the largest representative of retail outlets in ness sector in British Columbia. The one huge benefit the province, Shelfspace B.C. Here's what he says about of HST is that all those input tax costs, all that invisible his members, retailers across the province: "They liked PST that they are paying — whether it's on purchasing harmonization. They like the simplicity. It saves them vehicles, repairing vehicles, their legal bills, their heat- time and money. All of those attributes of the HST we ing, their electricity charges or whatever it is…. All of heard about actually play out for the retail community. those invisible PST costs which were passed on to their So what happens this week is that the acceptance of the customers in the form of higher prices are now gone. retail community of HST gets even broader as a result They're gone. of bringing the rate down to 10 percent by 2014." By the If you accept that business probably passes on addi- way, that's 93 percent support among Shelfspace B.C. tional costs to consumers, I guess you've got to accept members at a 10 percent rate. the argument that when they get a benefit, they're prob- The Canadian Federation of Independent Business, ably passing on savings to consumers too. That's really the voice of small business across the province. Here's one of the significant benefits. the quote from Laura Jones, who is their vice-president [1515] for western Canada. "'I think it's good news, and we As I start to come towards the end of my remarks, I can live with this,' said Laura Jones, the vice-president want to recap some — what I call — uncomfortable NDP for western Canada. 'I think it will sell the HST, and facts with respect to the debate over HST at 10 percent that's good news for consumers, business and good or going back to a 12 percent GST plus PST, and that is news for the province.'" That was in theTimes Colonist this. Employment has increased 1½ percent in the per- on May 26, 2011. iod since the HST's introduction compared to the same B.C. Cattlemen's Association, the ranchers of our period prior to its introduction. That's the job creation province: "We've noticed that under the new system our that they keep laughing at, but it's actually important to accounting is easier, and we're eligible to apply for a re- families to know that job growth is going to happen. fund on all of the items we use on the ranch. Under the Second uncomfortable NDP fact. Housing starts former PST-GST system, agriculture businesses were have grown 11.9 percent since the introduction of the exempt from PST only on tax items that were on an ap- HST when compared with the same period prior to the proved list. The old PST list didn't include everything HST. This gives B.C. the second-fastest-growing hous- that ranchers need to conduct business. Even some ing starts out of the ten provinces. I say that because I types of farm tractors weren't eligible for exemption." know we're probably going to hear how apparently the That's Kevin Boon, the B.C. Cattlemen's Association housing industry has been devastated. general manager. Table A3 in the 2011 budget. I keep recommending the On and on I could go. Forest industry, mining sector members opposite look at it. They keep forgetting to. But and on and on it goes. Why does the business commun- I'll remind them that it summarizes all taxes paid in British ity, large and small, say this? Because under the NDP's Columbia, whether it's personal income tax, child bene- preferred approach of going back to a 12 percent PST fits, property taxes, consumption taxes, MSP premiums. plus GST, if you've ever run a business, as I have, you British Columbians are still ranked second-lowest overall have to understand the joy people have to go through in tax rate in the country, right behind Alberta. doing the paperwork associated with the PST, then the British Columbians are still well ahead of where they paperwork associated with the GST, then dealing with were when that Leader of the Opposition was actually tax auditors from the PST and the GST departments. To chief of staff under the NDP government of Glen Clark go back to the NDP's preferred approach, we're going to in the 1990s. I'll give some examples. I like examples. have to do some changes — not just go back to a higher A senior couple earning $30,000 in 2001, in the last rate, but we're going to have to spend about $25 million year of the NDP government, paid $3,391 in total taxes, hiring back and equipping a new PST office. under the burden that I just mentioned — the total tax [1520] burden. In 2011, under our B.C. Liberal government, We're going to have to rehire 300 tax auditors in the that same senior couple earning $30,000 is now pay- province at a cost of $35 million a year so that we can 7552 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

then reimpose all that great joy that small business enjoys like Gotham or Shore Club or others, I have heard from when they're having to deal with the paperwork and aud- restaurant owners across the province that have talked itors from a PST and a GST system, and again we're going about how it is a benefit when they have a growing econ- to have to do it at a higher 12 percent rate. omy and growing jobs that are going to be able to give Madam Chair, I can tell you that everything I heard people the opportunity to go and take part and shop in from families across British Columbia in the telephone the restaurants and buy food. town halls that I participated in and the meetings that I can tell you this. They get how important it is. When we have held was very clear. They want government to you put $1.7 billion in purchasing power back in the lighten the tax burden on British Columbians. pockets of British Columbians every single year with a 10 It's why we have marched down the personal income percent HST, that is $1.7 billion that finds its way back into tax rate by 37 percent — a 37 percent reduction since the restaurant sector, into the retail industry, into small 2001. Those members opposite voted against each and business, big business in every part of the province. every one of those reductions. I will say this too. When you invest $200 million in It's why we took the general corporate tax rate from transition cheques to families with children, to low- and 16½ to 10. It's why we took the small business tax rate modest-income seniors earning under $40,000, that from 4½ to 2½. It's why we have constantly tried to re- $200 million finds a way back into the restaurant sector, duce the regulatory burden by over 40 percent for small back into the fast-food restaurants, back into the casual- business in the province of British Columbia — to ensure dining restaurants, back into the high-end restaurants. that we have an economy that is saying to small business: That is good for the restaurant sector, and that is good "We want you to invest; we want you to grow; we want for the economy of British Columbia. you to hire; we want you to have every best possible op- Let me conclude by saying this. We have listened to portunity when competing with the other 80 percent the public. We have responded to what we heard from of Canadians that are operating under an HST but also, the public. The public asked us to improve the HST, and more importantly, with the 140 countries around the that is exactly what we've done. In about two weeks…. world that are competing with a value-added tax which is identical to the harmonized sales tax." Interjections. There's a reason why there are 140 jurisdictions around the world that utilize an HST or a value-added tax. It's Hon. K. Falcon: Apparently, the NDP opposite because it is more sensible. There's a reason why 140 juris- is concerned about the fact that we've listened to the dictions…. Not one of them has gone back to the NDP's public and have responded to what we heard from the preferred approach and reintroduced or introduced a re- public. I can understand the discomfort of going out tail sales tax like the PST in the last 35 years. there and saying: "We must go back to a more ineffi- There's a reason: because they make no sense. The last cient, higher 12 percent GST plus PST." I can certainly jurisdiction that did it in 1975, Barbados, got rid of it understand that discomfort. a year later because it made no sense for Barbados. It [1525] makes no sense for modern jurisdictions, for modern But I can tell you this. I'm sorry that they are uncom- taxation policy, for economies that want to see their fortable with that, but that's what we heard from the economies grow. public, and that's what we're responding with — a sens- Finally, I will say this. I will talk for a moment about ible, responsible, fiscally prudent plan that marchesH ST the restaurant sector. I have been inundated in the last down to 10 percent and ensures that in British Columbia number of days with calls from members of the restau- we are going to have a growing, confident, small busi- rant sector that are huge supporters of the HST. I know ness and large business economy that generates jobs and that the NDP opposite will talk about the lobbyist or- incomes for families in this province and ensures that as ganization for the restaurant association. we go forward, British Columbians will have a modern, efficient taxation policy. Interjections. That's what we are putting forward to the public of British Columbia. That's what we are comfortable hav- Deputy Speaker: Minister. ing the public of British Columbia choose between — a Members, I need to be able to hear the speaker. 10 percent improved HST with transition cheques to families with kids, with transition cheques to low- and Hon. K. Falcon: I know that they will bring forward moderate-income seniors, or we can go backwards to an the voice, as they should. I have no problem with the NDP plan of a 12 percent PST plus GST, one of most in- lobbyist association for the restaurant industry. efficient tax regimes possible. But Madam Chair, I want you to know this. Whether I will allow and I will be confident that the public, it's small family businesses; whether it's chains like fully informed, will make the right decision for the fu- Cactus Club, the Keg; whether it's high-end restaurants ture of the province of British Columbia. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7553

A. Dix: Well, the bluster there indicates the despera- Then we have this spectacle in the House this week, tion of the government. The Minister of Finance — who where the government, desperate to win a referendum, for eight years was part of a government that opposed the desperate to bring forward a policy that the people HST, that days before the election told people in British of British Columbia oppose, is playing these games Columbia in writing that they weren't going to introduce again. the HST — just says: "Trust me. Believe me now." [1530] Well, actually, the people of B.C. are not buying it. Interjection. They will vote that way in the referendum.

A. Dix: Of course he does. Interjections. He says it's the worst thing that ever happened. It was their policy for eight years. It was the previous Premier's A. Dix: Oh, the minister talks about the polls. Well, policy for 15 years. They misled people, and everybody I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to the de- knows it. bate on the HST. I'm looking forward to this debate. Then, completely contrary to what they're saying now, On every occasion, the government has misled British in the fall of 2009, the spring of 2010 they said it brings Columbians. In the spring of 2009, in the fall…. And in the same amount of money as the PST. nobody believes them now. It's a transfer of $1.9 billion. Well, there they were. It's a motion to deny British Columbians something They sent out correspondence to people. Even the for- they worked hard to get: the opportunity to decide mer Minister of Labour, the parliamentary secretary for themselves on the fate of the HST. something…. Even he was part of a government that TheH ST hurts services that didn't pay PST previously. sent letters out to people saying: "Oh, this is revenue- It hurts those industries. It removes from the economy neutral. Don't worry about this. This is revenue-neutral." hundreds of millions of dollars that families would be Then it wasn't. spending on everything from clothes to dinners out to Relevant to this motion, in the spring of 2010 they home renovations. According to the government's own brought in a budget in this House that said every penny report — their own report — it's $1.3 billion from fam- of the HST was required to pay for health care. It's the ilies in the current fiscal year, $1.3 billion from families law of the province. They passed it. They said every in the next fiscal year. It's $2.6 billion they've taken out penny was going to health care. of the pockets of families. No more. That was a dead letter virtually the minute We have to hear the Minister of Finance talk about they put it out. Now, if you assume that every penny how people will have more money to spend in restau- goes to health care, $1.7 billion less to health care as a rants. They've taken money out of people's pockets. It result of this motion. leaves a massive hole in the budget which they are pretending to fill, using every dime from contingency Interjections. reserves and forecast allowances. If the B.C. Liberals are re-elected — and let's face it; A. Dix: Here they go again. I hear the Minister of this is not a likely prospect — you can imagine what Finance yelling out, who said that his controlled tele- they'll do to fill the budget hole. It's what they've been phone town halls were the biggest consultation in history, doing for years: increasing MSP premiums — that's what where he gets to select the questions and the answer. they've been doing — increasing hydro rates, increasing He calls people up in British Columbia, and he says: ICBC rates. That's their approach to public policy, and "Oh, you're going to pay for this." You pay for the call. they will be driven to do it over the next few years by the The Minister of Finance calls you up; you've got to pay decision we are making today. for the call. From the beginning of this mess we were told things He says that this is the biggest consultation in history. that weren't so. Now the chickens have come home to Of course it's not. One other consultation was bigger roost, and we get this last act of desperation from the — the 700,000 people in British Columbia who signed government. The bottom line is this. We can't trust a petitions against the HST. word the B.C. Liberals say on this issue. Then we had the new Premier. The new Premier said…. A month ago we talked about what the Premier said Well, what did she say? She said that playing around with two months ago — that she would never do what we're this process, promising a rate cut…. And let's face it: debating in the House today. She wouldn't do that be- nothing the government says on the HST can be believed. cause it would be like buying votes. What did she say at Nothing that they say can be believed. But she said in the same time? She said that the referendum campaign March that playing around with this process by promis- would be conducted like a provincial election. ing, before a referendum, a rate cut would be equivalent Well, in a provincial election the government can't to buying votes. She wasn't going to do it. use public funds to mislead the voters with their own 7554 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

money, as the government is doing with TV ads. In a of small businesses yesterday, and small businesses again provincial election people have to declare their contri- are getting the short end of the stick. bution to the process. In a provincial election there are If you are a restaurant and you have been punished by limits on both sides to ensure fairness. Broken promise the HST, and they have…. According to the Restaurant No. 2 from the Premier. She hasn't been there on this Association, if you lost 15 percent of your business be- issue very, very long. cause of the HST — and they have — now as a small What else? She didn't stop there. She said: "When it business, in addition to that, as a restaurant you are comes to the HST, the public wants straight answers effectively getting a small business tax hike from the from the government, not a position that shifts without government. This is a double whammy that's bad for warning. This is the kind of doubletalk that led to the the economy. breakdown in public trust…government must have to What do we have, in short? The continuation of a be successful." It's more than ironic that the most dev- common thread under the B.C. Liberal government — astating arguments against this motion and against this a tax shift onto families that continues every day. On HST are provided by the Premier herself. January 1 of this year there was an increase in MSP fees We know and the government members know why and an increase in long-term care fees. MSP premiums, the HST plan could not have been revealed before the long-term care fees — 18 percent over three years in 2009 election. People already had enough of the regres- MSP increases after a 50 percent increase before. sive tax-shift program of the B.C. Liberals. Even the On that same day the same businesses that have Premier has called the B.C. Liberal assault on the truth benefited, according to the government, to the tune of in that election campaign sneaky — sneaky but also $1.9 billion as a result of the HST and the same families very unfair to the families who are now faced with the who have paid the price for $1.3 billion as a result of the burden of the HST. HST…. What happened on January 1? The government Every opportunity to avoid, to delay, to obscure, to did it again. They cut taxes for business. They cut taxes mislead the real issues has been brought forward in this for big business, and they increased MSP premiums for campaign on the HST, in this government effort on the families. HST. The massive tax shift, the reduction in purchas- This is a common thread that has gone through ten ing power that hurts local business and the cuts to vital years. The minister says: "Trust us." That's what he says. services that will follow the next big budget hole — on He says: "Trust us." I heard him on CKNW this weekend. all of these counts, the families claimed by the new He was phoned by someone, and someone said: "Why Premier as her chief concern will in fact be her chief would I possibly trust anything you have to say about targets. What the HST is about is making families pay the HST?" You know what the minister responded? He more and get less. said: "Well, take a look at our fiscal record." The fiscal re- [1535] cord is the cause of where we are now. Here's what the government has told us about the So $495 million — that's what the Minister of Finance HST. It saves business, big business, $1.9 billion a year. said that the budget deficit was, and not a penny more. That's what it's all about — another tax shift on the part That's what the Premier said. That's what all the Liberal of the government. MLAs said the deficit was prior to the last provincial Surely the government, the ministers in this House election. It was the most massive mistake in the hist- have the obligation when they're talking to the public to ory of budget-making in British Columbia. That's why tell the truth about what's going on. Even the $650 mil- they brought in the HST — to cover up that mistake. So lion in "proposed temporary corporate tax increases…." when we hear this from a government that has failed This is just too much fun for words, what they said about us so utterly on these issues and then we find out that these things before, when I proposed them. They called in the bargain, families will have to pay more again but them 18th century socialism. But now that risk is the big- get less…. gest tax shift in history — a tax shift onto families and That's why we've raised the issues we have in this ses- away from big business. They're doing everything they sion. That's why we've raised the issue of the suffering can to save it, and now even this is in play. of patients because of Liberal orthotics policies. That's What else did they do? What else are they doing? why too many rural communities have lost their schools. They're increasing taxes on small businesses. That's what That's why the working families of theT ri-Cities are still they're doing. They're not going ahead with increases on waiting for the Evergreen line. small businesses the minister talked about earlier. The [1540] minister talked earlier about proposals that he suggests They pay more, but they get less. This motion drives we have. Of course, he wasn't accurately reflecting those that Liberal policy further and inflicts more financial proposals outside the House. I could say directly what he pain on B.C. families, and again, the truth will not be was doing, but I will say this. We — myself and the mem- redressed by the Premier of British Columbia or the ber for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant — met with a group Minister of Finance or any other Liberal. This has been a Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7555

ten-year project. The rich have got richer, the poor have That is the choice in front of us. That's why 700,000 got poorer, and the middle class has been squeezed, as British Columbians spoke so thoroughly, so convincingly, has small business. forcing the government into a referendum they didn't This is fundamentally what the HST is all about. It want. Now we're at the stage of this referendum where moves $2 billion annually from household budgets, we have the government making one last, desperate plea. from individual pocketbooks, from their earnings to Nobody believes them. This motion is the culmination the business sector. This is after ten years of the action of a failed policy. It is not a fix; it is not a solution. It cre- we've been talking about, when British Columbia has ates new and significant problems, as pointed out by the suffered the lowest rate of economic growth under any new Premier herself when she talked about $1.6 billion government in my lifetime, a lower rate of job creation in cuts to health care as a result. than the 1990s, a government that inherited a balanced There will not be the promised jobs from theL iberals' budget and that has run a deficit over ten years — over HST. There will not be the promised price reductions ten years, hon. Speaker. from the Liberals' HST. There will not be the boost in This is their sad record, and we are getting more now. small business from the Liberals' huge shift in who pays The people of British Columbia want change. That's why in taxes. Instead, we are seeing new pressures on small they signed petitions against the HST, and that's why business, new pressures on families. they're going to oppose the HST in the coming referen- I will vote no to this motion for three key reasons, as dum. Regardless of what the government pretends, this I've said. The government is not to be believed. This is a motion does not alter that fundamental reality. Rather, it major tax shift onto families, and it reflects a government was written to further mislead us about that reality. whose fiscal incompetence has left our economy at sea. The expanded tax base that is at the core of the HST [1545] remains. A middle-class family replacing the roof on These are three key reasons to vote against this motion. their house will pay thousands more, and the Minister To give people confidence.… Those are the things…. of Finance, of course, dismisses their concerns. After the referendum the choice on many items will be a choice Interjections. between not 10 and 12 percent but zero and 7 percent on a variety of items — on restaurant meals, on coffee, A. Dix: Oh, the ministers across there and the par- on vitamins, on health products. liamentary secretaries across there…. I know that the The added cost burden on families has been signifi- government needed more parliamentary secretaries. cant, and over the last couple of years…. You take a That's clear after this debate. That's why we increased the family, $50,000 a year each, and we are talking about number of parliamentary secretaries. It's clear that we thousands of dollars of additional taxes that they've paid needed more of them. to subsidize a tax shift put forward by the government. But let me tell you, hon. Speaker, what we in this House This tax shift will continue. And now we have this mak- will commit to. We are opposed to this HST. We're com- ing it up as they go along, this spending of contingency mitted to a government that says there'll be no more snow funds, this spending of forecast allowance that we've jobs and smokescreens and doubletalk. We are commit- seen over the last few years to try and make the Minister ted to a greater measure of fairness with a PST system that of Finance's numbers seem right. will be better for families and for small business. The fact of the matter is that since the last provincial We are committed to a health care system and an edu- election, the government has done nothing but the HST. cation system that's improved. We haven't given up on They've done nothing but theH ST, and here we are back public health care. We haven't given up on public edu- again, with them bailing water, trying to find some pos- cation. We believe that if we have a government that sible fix so that they can deliver on this commitment to believes in those institutions, we can make improve- their friends, paid for by the families of British Columbia. ments and that the best days of health care and education The cost to citizens has been significant. in B.C. are ahead of us, not behind us. This, at its core, is a government that's out of ideas We believe that the growth in inequality under this and out of gas. It's a government that has no credible an- government is caused by the very measures such as swers to its own self-inflicted deficit, except to make the the HST. The inequality that has grown under this gov- problem worse, to make promises about the future that ernment — the highest child poverty rate for seven nobody believes. This is the fact: another exercise in dam- consecutive years now in this province, the highest child age control. That's all this motion is.I t's why we oppose it poverty rate in the country…. here, because we believe that the coming referendum is a choice between the PST and the HST; a choice between Interjections. a tax regime where families pay more, the HST, and a tax regime where big business pays its share under the PST. A. Dix: Oh, the government doesn't believe Statistics Hon. Speaker, that is the choice. Canada now, hon. Speaker. 7556 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

The highest level of absolute inequality in the coun- that the public, getting the information about the HST, try — the top 20 percent against the bottom 20 percent. may very well determine that they would like to keep This is the reality, and we don't think growing inequality it. The discussion we have to have today is not about is inevitable. We will fight that as a government if we are the issue of were people upset or not when the HST elected in British Columbia. was presented. I think every British Columbian would We are for a tax system that serves as a foundation agree they were. The ones I've talked to — and I've for economic and social progress, that serves both busi- talked to not only my constituents in Peace River South ness investment and the needs of working people and but around the province — were extremely concerned families. That's why we plan and will vote to defeat this about how a major tax policy shift like this could be motion. That's why we will campaign to defeat the HST brought forward without any dialogue with the people in the coming referendum. That's why. of British Columbia. It is time to end the deception. It is time for a new I think it's fair to say the government has accepted government that believes in British Columbia again, that and taken full responsibility. It was a mistake. It isn't that doesn't mislead them again and again. It is time to often in my study — and it's only been probably 25 years stop a government, to end a government that has every where I've paid attention and studied politics — that I day increased costs onto families, every day favoured see governments stand up and say: "You know, a mistake big business over small business, every day changed its was made." In fact, a mistake was made in how this was story on this tax to suit circumstances and now is des- presented to the people of British Columbia. perately trying one last play. I've had numerous people who were upset about that, The people of British Columbia have this debate in but what they've talked about is: what is this tax about? their hands. As much as the Minister of Finance would They had many questions. They asked me. I'm sure they like to take it away from them, they have this in their asked members of the opposition and my colleagues hands. We are going to fight to ensure that the HST is here, and that information began to get out there. I don't scrapped. We are going to fight to ensure that this mo- think anybody on either side of this House goes out and tion, which continues the deception of voters in British tries to misinform anybody. I think they are honestly — Columbia, is defeated. and I believe this — talking about what they believe in We are going to fight on behalf of the people ofB ritish their hearts are the true facts. Columbia, who have been let down by this government, The reality of what's going on right now, both on the let down by a government that misled them on this pro side and the anti side of this tax, is that we have to en- fundamental issue of taxation, with the HST — fight sure that the factual information goes out there. I'm okay against the government and bring change to British with that. What we weren't okay with, and what many of Columbia for progress, for fair taxes, for an economy the people I spoke to who were adamantly opposed ori- that works for everyone, for a government that speaks ginally were upset with, because some of the information for rural B.C. as well as urban B.C., for a government they heard was so far out there, nobody…. that believes that public services are worth defending It was virtually unbelievable, but human nature is and worth improving. that if somebody tells you something that the govern- That's what we stand for, and we're going to lead that ment has done and then the government — regardless fight in this coming referendum, and we're going to lead whether it was a New Democrat government in the that fight whenever the government decides to call a 1990s, Social Credit before that or the B.C. Liberals to- general election. day…. If somebody hears something, it seems that if government comes to correct that and says, "Actually, Deputy Speaker: Recognizing the Minister of Trans- no, those aren't the numbers, and those aren't the facts," portation and Infrastructure. [Applause.] human nature is to disbelieve government. It's a sad situation in society today not just in British Hon. B. Lekstrom: Thank you to my colleagues across Columbia, not just in Canada, but really around the the way for that standing ovation. I didn't know that…. globe. If there's one thing we can do together from both [1550] sides of the House, it would be to build that trust back, It's interesting. What we're talking about here is a mo- and we can do that together. tion that's before us, a motion that is talking about if The member opposite spoke about the telephone the people of British Columbia, under the right they've town halls — the Leader of the Opposition. I can tell earned to have a vote on the HST, determine that they the member that going into these…. I was part of want to keep the HST. That may very well be the case. It those along with my colleagues. I didn't know what may very well be the case more so today than it was a to expect going into those. I had never participated in week ago, a month ago or six months ago. one before. The issue is that it appears to me that the speeches So the first one we did looked after the northeast part I've heard thus far from the opposition are concerned of the province. We had 5,900 people participate in that Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7557

telephone town hall. On an average, they stayed on the But they're squeezed, whether it be the wages…. We've line about 21 minutes. It was without question one of the seen a zero mandate over the time. They've been part of most effective ways to communicate and talk to people trying to resolve the economic concerns and crisis that in British Columbia that I've ever been part of. Not only not only British Columbia has faced, somewhat, but the was it a great system that we had to discuss this issue, globe. So I want to say thank you to them. but I would expect that in the future, we can use that What I do want to make sure, as we entertain discus- same system again to discuss other major issues that this sion on this motion, is that what we're talking about is province deals with. not whether we're keeping the HST or whether we're You know, a lot of this has been about misinformation. not. That's a decision that the public ofB ritish Columbia There are 1.1 million low-income British Columbians — earned their right to have a say in. They made history about 20 percent of those are seniors — who receive not only in British Columbia but in this country, and their credit cheques today — the HST. I'm not talking they should be very proud of that. I would think that about the GST credit cheque, but the HST. That's help- if there's been a lesson to be learned not only by our ing. Without question, it's helping these families. government but by governments across this country, it The motion today is about moving from the 12 per- would be the one very important fact that the reason cent…. We're talking really only about the PST portion, governments are there is the people that they represent, the provincial sales tax portion, taking it from 7 percent and this is a great example of that. down to 6 percent on July 1, 2012, and then taking it The telephone town halls, I think, are very good. I again another percentage point from 6 percent down to talked about 7 percent down to 6 percent down to 5 per- 5 percent on July 1, 2014. cent. I want to make sure people understand that. I'm I can tell you that in a region I represent, being the talking about the provincial sales tax portion of the HST. South Peace up in northeastern British Columbia, we're a For the better part of 20 years — I've been elected prob- border community. We have always been challenged with ably close to, I guess, 18 years now going back to local being a border community, because we have people who government and then having the honour to serve in this can go across the border and purchase goods without House for ten years — we have talked about: how do we paying the provincial sales tax. They can bring those back lower the PST? How do we compete with Alberta? into the province and think they've saved money. Well, this actually does that. It makes us have the abil- The reality is nobody saves when that happens. ity to compete with our border communities, whether it Whether you're in the Kootenays or whether you're in be business or whether they can write down the input the Peace, our taxes are what pay for the services we tax credits and get that back. It levels it. So whether all want and enjoy in this province. It's very rare…. I you're a B.C. contractor or an Alberta contractor, you won't say "never," because I have had in the last ten years now are competing on the same playing field with each probably two or three people, out of the thousands I've other, something we've worked at for a very long time — spoken with, come in and tell me that we provide too wasn't achievable. The HST actually does that as good many services. It's been just the opposite. Most people tax policy. come and tell me about if we could spend more money The other thing I heard loud and clear, and I've heard doing this, it would be a better service. If we could spend the opposition members speak to this, and rightfully so…. more money on my roadway, I'd have a better road. If I They said: "You know, there's an imbalance here. There's could spend more money on health care, I'd have better a major shift. TheH ST is on the consumer, and big busi- health care. ness is getting the break." The one thing beforeI go into [1555] my reasoning on this explanation…. I want to point out The reality is, whether you're a New Democrat in op- that governments don't create jobs. Government creates position, whether you're a B.C. Liberal in government or, an investment climate where the private sector invests more importantly, a British Columbian, it costs money their capital. That's who creates the jobs for ourselves to deliver the programs we all want and enjoy. The re- and our families and our children growing up. ality of saying that I want more services, but I want to Now, you have to find the proper balance so that we can pay less taxes…. I don't think this is going to come as maintain the quality of life, look after our environment, a shock to anybody. That's an unrealistic expectation. It look after what I consider without question not only the just won't work. most beautiful province in Canada but the best place in We have actually, I think, along with the govern- the world, and we're going to do that. But not only are we ment…. I'm going to give kudos to the employees. Every saying that should the people of British Columbia decide government employee goes to work not on behalf of the to keep the HST, and if that happens, then this motion government side or the opposition side. They go to work kicks in, but we will go from 12 percent to 10 percent by each and every day on behalf of British Columbians. 2014, something that makes every family in this prov- They provide every service that we provide in this prov- ince whole under the HST, something very important ince on behalf of government, and they do a great job. because we hear different sometimes. 7558 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

There's also a 2 percent increase in the corporate tax British Columbia will make that choice, and I'm looking rate, something that, without question… I think people forward to whichever choice they make, because with- said: "How can a government that is there to cut taxes out question, you know, there are impacts either way. want to raise taxes?" I think what this shows is a true re- But we will do this. balancing. It shows that what we heard, not only on the What I am going to do and ensure — hopefully I share telephone town halls but I'm sure each and every mem- this with every member in this chamber regardless of ber here has heard, is that it seems to be inequitable. the side that you're on — is that as we move forward, I Right now, should this tax proceed and be maintained want people to have an informed decision. in British Columbia, the shift is from the consumer, as I An emotional decision is an expensive decision. said, and the large corporations are getting the break. I Without question, this was an emotionally charged issue think you have to go back to what I said originally. I want and still is to some degree. I do think that emotion has corporations to be able to make money so they can turn now shifted, I think, to a great thirst for knowledge: around and reinvest, which creates additional jobs, but I "What does this tax mean? What does it mean to my busi- also am extremely cognizant of the fact that we have to ness? What does it mean to me as an individual? What have that balance. So the 2 percent increase in the cor- does it mean to my family? Also, what does it mean if porate tax rate I think is a very, very good move in trying I decide to keep this tax with the changes that are pro- to achieve a full rebalancing of what takes place. posed in this motion?" The other oneI want to speak about is that as we move So, hon. Chair, with that, what I'm going to ask is forward on this, we can never lose sight during this de- not only of the opposition but of all British Columbians. bate that this is not about whether we keep the HST or As we move forward, through this discussion and the we don't keep it. As I said earlier, the people of British debate in the coming weeks and before you cast your Columbia will make that decision, and they will make ballot, ask the questions. Ask tough questions. Get an- that decision based on factual information from both swers from your MLAs through their offices. Go to the sides. They will weigh out what the pros and the cons website. are, and they will make their decision. You will get a mailout that's going to take place. It will [1600] have both sides of this debate. All I ask is that before If their decision is to keep the HST, then that's what you cast your ballot, make sure you don't cast your vote this motion addresses. based on emotion but on factual information. Then, we I do understand that the opposition is adamantly will all be a better and a stronger province. opposed to the HST. I accept that. They're out there. They're campaigning saying: "Look, we're on the anti B. Ralston: The previous speaker would have us be- side of that." We're on pro side. But I am somewhat con- lieve that we are entering a rational Socratic dialogue fused that we're debating a motion that really is about here in the Legislature and in the public, but that's not after the people make their decision. We're saying: "If the way that the Minister of Finance has characterized they decide to keep it." The opposition, you know….I 'm the debate. That's not the way the ads that are being looking forward to listening to more debate. paid at great public expense characterize the debate. If the decision is made that British Columbians say, Not at all. "We're going to keep the HST," I think this is a great In fact, really the gist of this debate, when it comes move. I think moving the rate from 12 percent down down to it, is from the government and from the to 10 percent is an appropriate move. I think putting Minister of Finance and from the Premier…. The the transition payments for children under 18 years old, Minister of Finance was asked a very pointed question for families, as well as low-income or moderate-income on radio just yesterday. What assurance does the public seniors who earn up to $40,000, putting $175 in each have that these positions that are taken on behalf of the of their pockets as a transition until the first 1 percent government…? rate reduction takes place on July 1, 2012, is important. And this is just the latest in a series of evolving pos- We heard that there's a hardship. The Premier has said, itions. I'll go through a few of the positions that they've "We're going to make sure that we mitigate the impact on taken as to why this is supposedly a good thing. When families," and that's very positive as well. those positions fail or are rejected or the facts just don't support them, they move to other positions. [D. Black in the chair.] Really when it gets down to it, the Minister of Finance says: "Well, look at us. Trust our record. That's your as- I won't take up a great deal of time, other than to say surance that you can accept what we say and therefore that the motion we're debating is a positive motion. I support our position." hope we don't get caught up in: "Is the HST going to [1605] stay? Is it not?" As I said, that's not government's deci- In fact, there's just no basis, looking back on the sion; that's not the opposition's decision. The people of debate since July 2009, on which one can accept what Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7559

any spokesperson of the government says. I think conclusion — 24,000 jobs over ten years. So 24,000 that's really the reason that no one in the public trusts jobs in an economy of 2.3 million. Any economist will what's being said in this debate by the government. tell you, and I've spoken to one or two about this, that Not at all. you would not be able to assess the cause and effect of Of course, if we begin with the election, as everyone that relationship. knows and is well documented, the B.C. Liberals were In other words, the numbers that are being hypothet- asked directly in the campaign whether they would ically spoken of are so few that you could not reliably implement an HST. A couple of organizations did that, attribute that to the HST or just a statistical variation or notably the Restaurant Association. They responded in even just a random occurrence. writing and said, no, they would not. So there was a dir- Really, that's why, when the Minister of Finance ect misrepresentation in the course of the election. They stands up here today, he doesn't mention that at all. The said they wouldn't do it. jobs argument — the jobs, jobs, jobs argument that we They have used other justifications. The previous heard in 2009 and 2010 — is gone. The reason it's gone Premier — and this is all about saving his legacy — is because there was never any basis to it. It was mislead- said that this was the single best thing that could be ing. That's why they've dumped that argument. done for the economy. He pointed to the number of [1610] jobs that would be created. But when you listened to That's a reason not to accept what's being said now, the Minister of Finance this afternoon, the idea that because what was being said, with great emotion and the HST will bring more jobs to the province has com- great fervour, has not been supported by reality at all. pletely fallen away. What else did they say about the HST? Well, the claim They don't rely on it as an argument. They don't believe was that it would…. This is what the Minister ofF inance it any more, and of course, the reason they don't is be- said in March 2010. He persisted in this position for a cause there's no support for it. There never was, but they year and a half, which was that the HST would raise strongly and fervently insisted upon it in the early days. about the same amount of money as the PST. Now, he Yet now they realize the reality, and that's fallen away. wouldn't always call it revenue-neutral, but if one tax If someone was to go back to the debate in August, is going to raise the same as the other tax, that's pretty September, October, November 2009, this was a very fer- close to a definition of revenue-neutral. vent argument that was put forward by the B.C. Liberals. But back in August 2009, I didn't accept that. I issued a Now it's not one that they rely upon at all. news release based on a C.D. Howe study which said that In fact, they insisted upon this. The then Minister of an HST would mean an additional $4 billion in revenue Finance, now the member for Vancouver-Quilchena, from taxes over three years. TheC .D. Howe Institute had commissioned a report from Mr. Mintz, an economist stated in their report: "B.C. would raise more revenue if at the University of Calgary, who said — in a ten-page they applied an HST with the same basis as the GST at report he was paid $12,000 to do — that in his analysis, the province's current rate of 7 percent." the HST in British Columbia would create 113,000 jobs I got an immediate response from the C.D. Howe over the coming ten years. Institute economists that I didn't know what I was talking Now, you have to put that into context. In the British about, that I was wrong and it would be likely revenue- Columbia economy right now, there are approximately neutral. The study that they'd done was Ontario. B.C. 1.8 million full-time jobs and 500,000 part-time jobs, for was different, and there was very little likelihood that it a total, obviously, of about 2.3 million. There are about would be anything other than revenue-neutral. 200,000 people in the labour force who are unemployed. There's an article byB en Dachis and Alexandre Laurin The issue becomes to look at that and assess the reality who said, and I quote: "Looking at the details of the B.C. of that claim. plan shows that harmonization may be very close to Later on, in the fall of 2010, the previous Premier, revenue-neutral." The government likes to look to the Premier Campbell, at the Union of B.C. Municipalities, C.D. Howe Institute from time to time and, indeed, Mr. said in his speech to that group — and that's a group Richards, who was on the Dinning panel, has done stud- from across the province of councillors and mayors: ies for the C.D. Howe Institute from time to time. "Well, let's suppose it's not 113,000. Let's suppose it's just That argument that I put forward was very rapidly 50,000." Let's just suppose. dismissed. The Minister ofF inance for a year and a half Obviously, knowing the previous Premier and his repeatedly said: "Oh, no, no. The HST and the PST will tendencies towards policy analysis, he knew that the raise the same amount of money. NDP Finance critic, 113,000 number could not be sustained. So the number you're wrong." Of course, now we hear from the cur- dropped from 113,000 to 50,000 at that point. rent Minister of Finance: "Well, it's all different. We just What we hear from the Dinning panel is that after didn't read the small print in the budget, and we just their assessment, they now project — on a different didn't understand what the other Minister of Finance analysis, although it's not clear how they come to this was saying." 7560 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

He said persistently, for a year and a half, consistently: Again Mr. Smart said in the same paper, the one that "I always said the HST would raise the same amount as they cited in the budget in September 2009, the Lessons the PST." But no. Can't rely on that, apparently. Just one in Harmony: more reason why one should not trust what's being said "It's important to emphasize that the increase in investment now because that position, from the previous Minister caused by the HST reform is a short-run phenomenon, as firms have acted to adjust to the new, higher-capital stock that is desired of Finance, from Liberal government members in their when taxes are lower. Whereas the investment effect is transitory, communications, in their public speeches…. They all the effect on capital, stock and labour productivity is presumably said that it would just raise the same amount. It wasn't a long-run and permanent. However, my empirical methodology, tax grab. Raise the same amount. You don't know what discussed below, does not allow these long-run effects to be esti- you're talking about. mated directly." Now that's all reversed. We have a different position. So what he says is that there's a temporary, short-term Does that breed confidence in what's being said now? I increase in investment. He calls it transitory. One can would suggest not. No one, given that claim about jobs and well imagine that firms, knowing that a new tax regime that claim about revenue neutrality, will believe that. is coming, might delay investments and make them, What else did they say? Well, they even said it would and that would cause a temporary bump. That's all he lower prices. They even said it would lower prices, that says, but this study is referred to repeatedly by people price…. It would be better for business, and those price like the minister in some of his public appearances as reductions would be passed on. But what did they cite proving that what happened in the Maritimes — price in support of this? They want to have a rational, dispas- reductions were passed on to consumers and investment sionate debate, evidence-based, but they don't provide increased…. That's not what Mr. Smart said at all. any evidence. They just provide assertions, rhetoric, I probably have taken advantage of the situation by ideology, assumptions, but no facts. actually reading the paper rather than relying on sum- In the September 2009 budget update they did cite maries of it, but that's what it says. a single paper, a paper written by a Mr. Michael Smart, When you look at those kinds of multiple arguments who is an economist at the University of Toronto, and that have been made over the term of this debate, we he looked at the…. It's called Lessons in Harmony, a C.D. see how they're made with great fanfare and fervour, Howe Institute paper. and when they aren't supported, they fall away. The jobs He looked at the experience in the Maritimes. What argument we don't hear about anymore. The revenue did he say about prices? This is in his conclusion, and neutrality has completely been reversed. That argument you have to look at the context in the Maritimes when it was dismissed at one point. Now when it's more conven- was introduced, because when the Maritime provinces ient to accept it, the reverse is argued — a 180-degree switched to the HST, the provinces knocked 5 points turn on that issue. off their TPS in Newfoundland and 4 points in New When the issue of prices is convenient, the paper of Brunswick and Nova Scotia. So there was a major re- Mr. Smart is referred to, but it doesn't support that pos- duction in the tax itself when it came in as well as an ition at all. With the issue of investment in the Maritimes, expansion of the tax base. again, the argument is not supported by the paper. [1615] So why would and why should anyone who's been A study done for the Manitoba government confirms following the debate trust the arguments that are being that analysis, that that is a unique factor that has to be put forward now? Really, we hear from the Minister of considered when making any assessment of this allega- Finance and the Premier: "Just trust us. Just trust us. I tion that prices went down. mean, look at our record." That record of those state- But Mr. Smart said: "Overall, consumer prices in the ments made in order to convince families and small harmonizing provinces fell with reform, although prices businesses that the HST is good for them are not sup- rose somewhat for shelter and clothing and footwear, ported at all — not one bit. and that fact tended to make the reform slightly regres- [1620] sive." In other words, it wasn't favourable to low-income Let's look to some of the other aspects of the fis- people. They paid more. So the policy was slightly- re cal record of the B.C. Liberals. The minister likes to gressive — not that price increases were passed on but speak about deficits. The B.C. Liberals had the biggest that it was slightly regressive. That's the only study that deficit in the history of the province in 2003: $2.62 they cited and they repeatedly cite and misquote. billion. In 2009 we heard endlessly before the elec- They say, "Well, we weren't going to bring it in," but tion — it was part of the election platform — $495 they did; "It's going to create jobs," but it didn't; "It's million, maximum. Of course, the ultimate reckoning revenue-neutral," but it wasn't; "Prices are going to come by the Auditor General and the public accounts of the down, and reductions are going to be passed along," and province was a $1.78 billion deficit. According to the they aren't. What other claims were made in this debate argument that's made and we're supposed to accept, that aren't supported by the evidence? and no one does, "That was not known, and it couldn't Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7561

have been predicted," and therefore they should be referendum. People would see that as buying their votes, forgiven that. buying people with their own money. But people remember that, so when the government [1625] says, "We stand on our record," it's worth examining She rejected that. Yet that's exactly what's being done. that record. That's another reason why no one should So once again a position that's taken by the leader of accept what's being said about what's being advanced by the government, the B.C. Liberal leader just months ago the government now. — exactly what she said she scorned, said she wouldn't Let me turn now to some of the arguments that are do — would be attacked, would be repudiated, would be being made based on the Dinning report. The Dinning seen through. And that's exactly what the government report posits or claims that the average family will pay is doing. So why would anyone believe what the B.C. $350 more in HST currently. The method by which this Liberals are saying now? was calculated was not released in the study. The sources I think that one of the strongest arguments made by given were Statistics Canada, B.C. Ministry of Finance those who are going to be voting yes in the referendum and panel estimates, yet Statistics Canada produced a — yes to extinguish the HST — is that they don't accept study, a more reliable estimate, using its highly regarded what the government is attempting to do, which in the statistical database and economic model. words of the Premier is buy their votes. They're suspi- That study was commissioned by the Times Colonist cious. They've heard the other arguments. They've all newspaper and published on June 22, 2010. It claimed the been rejected and fallen away. Now they're resorting to following results: $521 for the average B.C. family; $735 for one last round of arguments, throwing all their cards on the average married couple with at least one child; $688 the table. I just don't see a groundswell of support for for the average household where income was between what the government is saying. $80,000 and $90,000 — this includes many two-income The other concern that people have is the long-term households and single people; $801 for the average mar- fiscal implications of this kind of a rate cut that the gov- ried couple with no children, the oldest member between ernment now claims to be in favour of. The Premier 45 and 64; $173 for the average unattached individual herself, again, in the same interview, said: under 25. They don't include major investments, costs "Cutting the HST by one point is more than $800 million out of the budget this year and every year after that, $1.6 billion for associated with housing and major renovations because a two-point cut, and we're going to need to ask ourselves where they are out of scope of the model. we're going to get that money, because we're going to have to have So Statistics Canada — I think, without exception, a $1.6 billion bigger deficit, or we're going to get $1.6 billion fewer until some of the recent changes, widely regarded heart operations, special needs teachers, school facilities, hospital emergency rooms. I mean, that's where the money comes from, internationally as one of the most authoritative ultimately. So yes, government could cut it, but at what cost to statistical-gathering agencies in the world — says the citizens?" something very different from the Dinning panel. Yet So two very powerful arguments by the B.C. Liberal we aren't privileged enough to receive their method- leader, by the Premier, against the position that her ology and the method by which they calculated that. own government is now taking: (1) that by cutting the Yet this is the linchpin of what the Minister of Finance rate, people would reject this as buying votes, and (2) says about some of these rebates that are going to be the long-term fiscal implications for the services that sent out to people, should he succeed in persuading government delivers, the important services that gov- the public to his point of view. So there is, again, a real ernments deliver. disparity. It's not supported by the evidence. Why would anyone trust the B.C. Liberals in this de- The minister who just spoke claimed that he wanted to bate, given what they've said about this tax shift onto have this rational debate which is fact-based. Well, there families and small business from big business, when are a number of facts on jobs, on revenue neutrality, on people examine what they've said about jobs, what they prices, on investment, on the average cost to a family — said about revenue neutrality and about it not being a all of which are fact-based, based in research. Yet none tax grab? They even said that prices would be reduced — of it appears in any arguments that are being made at what they said about investment. None of it is supported the present time, because those are inconvenient argu- by the sources that they claim support them. ments. Those are arguments that have been tried with On top of that, you have this position taken in this the public. The public has seen through them. They have resolution. The Minister of Finance has said publicly: rejected them, so they've moved on. "Well, this signals legislative intent at this point. That's What has the government moved on to? The irony, as why I'm bringing this motion forward." But as everyone the Leader of the Opposition said, is that the strongest recognizes — and it certainly has been the history on the and best argument — the arguments that are put for- other side of the House — should the position change, ward by the Premier herself — is the argument that she another motion saying exactly the opposite could be said two months ago. She rejected the idea that the HST put forward at some future time on two days' notice, de- should be reduced by a point or two, running up to the bated in a day and a half and the position reversed. 7562 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

There's no permanence to this whatsoever. It's just a model is perfect." Would they or we say that there is any trust-me approach, and people do not and will not, I that is? No, we would not. predict, trust the representations that the government Much as we all absolutely count on the sacrosanct ser- is making in this debate based on the record that's been vices of health care and education and the other things put forward and based on the arguments that have been that government provides for its citizens, few really advanced throughout this debate, which one by one relish the idea of paying for them through this thing have fallen away or been completely reversed as they no called tax. The key question that we're debating today longer were convenient to illustrate the point that the is: is it better than the 12 percent GST-PST combina- B.C. Liberals wanted to illustrate. tion? To that question, there really is not much debate. With those comments, Madam Speaker, I will move Overwhelmingly, the answer to that is yes. to a conclusion in this brief opportunity to address the If you want some proof on that, you actually don't House on this issue. It's clear that the HST is a massive have to look very far, because there's no country that tax shift from large corporations onto the backs of aver- has adopted a PST type of model, the one that we've age families and small businesses. The approach that the now got rid of, for 30 to 40 years. If anything, we could Liberals have taken with the bribes, the attempt to buy be criticized for being late in abandoning the PST-GST votes, can't conceal the fact that many more things are type of combination. now taxed under the HST, which is why it's going to cost Meanwhile, while that was happening, an HST B.C. families more. style of tax has been adopted in over 140 jurisdictions [1630] around the world — by those very areas who want our That's why B.C. New Democrats will actively be jobs, who want our enviable economic performance encouraging you to vote yes to scrap the HST in the up- and those who want the standard of living that we enjoy coming referendum. in B.C. — for a very, very good reason. It's the best taxa- tion alternative out there for employment, for ease of I. Black: I rise to take my place in the debate on this administration and for ensuring a healthy small busi- motion. Let me start with a little walk down memory ness and industrial sector — things crucial for ensuring lane. One of the many benefits of this job is that you get a the standard of living that we have come to take for wonderful series of assignments. One of the assignments granted in British Columbia. that I've had for the last number of years has involved To coin a phrase, we have it so good here, and we have travelling the province and speaking with, quite literally, to protect it. Now, we have had several off-ramps that we several hundred small business owners directly through could have taken in our bumpy journey with the HST. I the British Columbia Small Business Roundtable and want to spend the balance of my short remarks on focus- speaking with literally hundreds of people in a room at ing why we did not. We've had plenty of chances to give a time at chambers of commerce meetings around the in to the voices of understandable anger and frustration province — engaging the individual men and women over how it was brought in. No one would have blamed who comprise our small business community and talk- us for abandoning the current course. ing to them directly about a large variety of issues. Let's speak of our new Premier. Given the context into I think it's clear to say that the issue that has been which she arrived, dumping the HST would have been most topical in the last number of years has been the an unchallenged move by a new leader. Without any his- harmonized sales tax. The initial reaction that I encoun- tory or baggage of introducing the new HST, our new tered as I travelled across this great province was one Premier earned the support of our B.C. Liberal family that went something like this: "We think we get it, but in a spirited contest. Then, making history, she won her we really don't understand why you surprised us." seat in Vancouver–Point Grey. In the ensuing several months as we've seen the Here's a leader who has already clearly put her own awareness grow in our private citizens and as we've seen stamp on government in the short time that she's been our awareness grow in our small business community, par- leader. She's put a stamp on our direction and the govern- ticularly in our resource-dependent communities, the ment approach that she believes is important in British tone has changed. The tone has become one of: "Look, Columbia and the government tone that she believes is we're looking past how you surprised us. We're looking important in British Columbia for the coming decade. past the way that you brought this in. Now we really get [1635] it. Now we really, really understand why this is right for Yet with the hottest potato of them all, the one issue the people of British Columbia." that would have brought enormous political relief to the Now, is this perfect? I don't think any tax model is ac- brand, if you will, of the B.C. Liberals, she did not back tually perfect. There's never going to be a taxation model down. She did not take the easy, the populist or the pol- that keeps absolutely everybody happy, and if you turn itically expedient route. to our small business owners and say, "Is this model per- Why not? Nobody would have blamed her. When fect?" they would also say: "You know what? No taxation there's clearly an opportunity to bail, to quit, to declare Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7563

that that dog just won't hunt, why did the new Premier of providing similar legislative intent to increase their HST B.C. say, "No, I will engage the people of British Columbia to 15 percent compared to the 10 that we are proposing on the HST. I will make the HST work for the families of here for British Columbia. There is a key difference in this great province. I will fill in the vacuum of communi- the way that the parties govern, clearly. cation, fill in the vacuum of consultation and, in doing so, But secondly, there are also some very real implica- reset the debate on the HST on a new frequency" and in tions that come from the vote here because going back doing so, strip away the noise and lay the facts bare? to a 12 percent PST-GST combination involves a $3 bil- Why did she choose this tougher path? Because it's lion hit to the treasury of British Columbia — $3 billion. the right thing to do. In every political debate, at the root I should point out that for all the debate we're hearing of every emotional discussion at the end of a dramatic, from the members opposite, I'm hearing complete si- theatrical and boisterous exchange full of opposing rhet- lence — not even crickets. I'm hearing complete silence oric and conflicting facts…. And let me tell you, there's on how to address a $3 billion shortfall in money. been a lot of very eloquent but factually bankrupt rhet- [1640] oric from our opposition leader today. We can debate philosophy. We can debate what tax There is a time for reason and reasonableness that model is right — an ancient PST-GST combination, seems to cut across partisan lines and political noise. which is what the NDP would like, or the HST at 10 That time is now. The people have been consulted — -al percent, which is what we're proposing. But within that most 300,000 of them. Thorough analysis has been done, debate, not once have I heard about the very real fi- and adjustments have been made to the HST to continue nancial implication of trying to convince the people of to do what this government has done deliberately and British Columbia, which is what the NDP is doing, that methodically over the past ten years — protect those a 12 percent PST-GST combination will put a $3 billion most in need while maximizing opportunity for invest- hole in the treasury. Of course, $1.6 billion of that is the ment and prosperity for the families right across B.C. federal transfer payments; $25 million to rebuild the Today we debate changes to the HST — a lower rate, PST bureaucracy and then $35 million a year thereafter 12 percent down to 10 percent — a move that means to actually run the PST bureaucracy with the 300 indi- the average B.C. family is ahead under the HST by $120 viduals that we would have to rehire. each and every year versus the old PST-GST combina- At the end of the day the NDP, in my view, is run- tion and ahead by $170 every year if that family is at the ning out of reasons to vote against this, but history is not lower-income levels. on their side. For all the very strong words that we hear We're also voting today on transition payments, put- about looking out for the little guy, they've had plenty of ting in place transition payments to ease the transition opportunity to illustrate that over the last ten years. down to the 10 percent level from 12 percent. Those They did not vote in favour of eliminating MSP pre- transition payments are $175 per child in every family in miums for some of our lowest-income citizens of this British Columbia, as well as $175 transition payment for province. They voted against it. They did not vote in fa- every low- or modest-income senior in this province. vour of eliminating income tax for our lowest-income A third key element of what we're voting on today is earners in this province, which we did. They voted the balancing of the tax burden. We're taking our cor- against it. And they also voted against the other, almost porate income tax rate from 10 percent to 12 percent a hundred, tax measures to reduce taxes and give our to pay for the reduction in the HST and balance the tax families a chance to prosper in B.C. burden within British Columbia. Now, at the end of the day we have repeatedly con- There's been much said about today's vote and to- ceded and acknowledged the manner in which the HST day's debate, but today's vote is not a gesture of some was introduced. No one is debating or arguing that. What kind. There's no hollow gesture associated with what remains now is a decision to go forward in a reasoned way we're doing today. This is not a political cheer or philo- with impacts to families fully mitigated, with a 10 percent sophical cheer of some kind. What we're dealing with tax that allows us to compete with those around the world today is establishing a very important principle in our who want our jobs, our prosperity and our standard of democracy. It's called legislative intent. It is what ac- living, or to go back to a PST system abandoned decades tually triggers the federal government to formally pass ago by 140 of our international competitors. at their end an order-in-council — an OIC as we call it The choice is a 10 percent HST or a 12 percent PST- — confirming the fact that our HST rate will go down GST combination. Let today be a little different. Let from 12 to 10. This is very much a very significant vote balance and reason and reasonableness prevail, and let we're about to have. us vote to move to a 10 percent HST. I should point out, because the opportunity is just too much to pass up, that there are some very recent pre- D. Donaldson: Hon. Chair, thank you for this op- cedents in this, just like earlier this year when the NDP portunity. I look forward to speaking to this motion put government in Nova Scotia did the exact same thing, forth by the Minister of Finance. 7564 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

I'd like to start off by speaking to the issue of credibil- Well, what do we have? At the bipartisan Finance ity. I don't know if people in this Legislature remember a Committee, which members on the other side and on saying from the former Premier around the HST — that this side sit together on, we heard from a number of busi- it wasn't on the radar, not on the radar. Does anybody nesses, numerous businesses around the province, that recall that one? for certainty — you know, this situation around the HST So there was no HST in the plans of this government is causing a lot of uncertainty — the referendum should before the election in 2009. Then lo and behold, weeks be moved up from the September 24 deadline. after the election the HST was brought in, one of the Well, that would assume that June 24 meant June 24. biggest tax changes this province has ever seen. The for- Instead, what we have is a referendum, not conducted in mer Finance Minister talked about meeting over the the same manner as a provincial election but in a mail-in water cooler or the coffee pot in Ottawa, and that was ballot. The results won't be known until August, mere the first time he had discussed theH ST. At that point we weeks before the actual September 24 date. So we really called it NABOB tax policy — just coming up with these haven't moved the referendum up. Again, it speaks to willy-nilly proclamations on the HST, not on the radar. the credibility of the Premier and of this government on The fact is it's not believable. the matter of a referendum. I'd like to quote the current Premier, in a radio show that The next credibility factor lies with the actual cam- she used to host, around the HST. She said: "It's an insult to paign funding for a referendum. The current Premier British Columbians for the government to, first of all, have said the government should provide "equal funding brought in this tax in what most of us regard as a very, very to both sides of the question." Again, it's the same as sneaky way, and then to refuse to bother explaining why a referendum happening June 24, that most people they did it properly. They can't even be bothered to mount would expect a vote on that date. Most people would a defence. And I think that's an insult." expect that "equal funding to both sides of the ques- Well, hon. Speaker, she's talking about her colleagues tion" would mean the same amount of money to each now in government — sneaky, an insult. We know that side of the referendum. every member on that side of the Legislature actually Well, there's about $7 million being spent by this gov- voted for the HST. So it speaks to this motion; it speaks ernment — $5 million and another $2 million on top of to the issue of credibility. that. For the campaign to oppose the implementation of As well, the Premier said in interviews before she the HST, it's $250,000. I don't think most people, most became Premier: "I just don't think it's possible that it right-minded people in the province, would think that could be the case." This was in regard to the fact that the is equal funding. Again, it speaks to credibility. They're tax was not contemplated before the spring ballot. just not believable on this topic — this government or So again, we've got the current Premier contradicting the Premier. her colleagues in government and, you know, actually My colleague the Finance critic spoke earlier around making some statements that aren't exactly inspiring, the issue of neutrality — the cost neutrality, the revenue- around her colleagues being sneaky and an insult. neutral HST. Well, we're finding out: again, just not Again with credibility, we look at the referendum. The believable on that aspect. The amount of money being current Premier proposed on the first day of her leader- brought in by the HST is going to be millions more than ship bid to cancel the HST referendum in favour of a the GST-PST — by some estimates, up to $820 million free vote in the House, a free vote here in the Legislature. more. "Cancel the referendum; we're going to have a free vote No wonder it's going to cost more. You look at the list in the Legislature." That was her position. of items that were previously exempt under the PST that [1645] will now have an extra 7 percent charge because of the Well, that position was roundly ridiculed by her now HST. Taxis, parking, dry cleaning, vitamins, camping colleagues, and soon she changed her mind on that. She sites — it's coming up to summer — landscaping, veter- changed her mind to have a referendum. Here again, inarian visits and funeral costs are all going to cost more. a quote on a local radio show, and this was from the No wonder it's not revenue-neutral. These are new items. Premier: "The tax does need to go to a referendum. It It's again a credibility factor, saying one thing and we needs to go sooner rather than later. As a practical mat- find out something else. It's totally different. ter, it needs to go to a referendum on June 24." I want to give another example in that list, and that's Well, June 24. Most people would think a referendum gifting — the gifting of a vehicle from Alberta, for in- on June 24 means that you would actually vote on a ref- stance, to a person residing in B.C. I had an example erendum June 24. In her policy book Families First, the from a constituent recently whose parents gifted him a Premier has said: "The referendum will be conducted in car. Under the previous system that was exempt from the same manner as a provincial election." "We're go- PST. So this fellow brought the car back into B.C. and ing to have a referendum on June 24," she said in the went to insure it this year, in January, at his ICBC lo- Vancouver Sun. cation. That insurer phoned down to make sure it's the Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7565

same arrangements as before, because the insurance As far as budget management goes — and this goes agent knew that the HST had been brought in and was to the question of competence around chaotic tax policy assured by ICBC that that's no problem. that this motion speaks to — we have a number of ex- Well, here it is two months later, in March, and this amples. The Vancouver Convention Centre — $400 constituent all of a sudden gets a bill from the consumer million over budget. Can you imagine if you were a taxation bureau saying that he owed the 7 percent por- homeowner trying to do renovations on your house and tion of that because of the HST. you all of a sudden had a budget that was that much over? [1650] I mean, $400 million on an $800 million project. Again, he got conflicting information. This just speaks The B.C. Utilities Commission is an organization to the unbelievability, the incompetence. The HST had that's supposed to provide oversight and protect the been in place for almost six months, and this govern- consumer when it comes to electricity rates. They look ment still wasn't able to communicate to its front-line at business cases that need to be made by B.C. Hydro resources, whether it's in the Ministry of Finance or on infrastructure projects. This government intro- ICBC, the actual policies that relate to the HST. duced a bill and passed it without fulsome debate. I want to continue a bit on that item in relation to this They invoked a form of closure, and it prevented B.C. motion around incompetence and chaos, the chaos of this Utilities Commission from oversight on $10 billion government around taxation. The good people of Stikine worth of infrastructure projects. Again, how is that sent me here in 2009. They voted me to come to Victoria good financial management? That just leads to a cha- to represent their interests, to hold this government ac- otic atmosphere in government. countable for its decisions. I had had business experience B.C. Place — originally $365 million for the roof, now before I came here in my previous line of work. I worked $577 million. Again, not very sound financial manage- with many small businesses and entrepreneurs. ment, not being able to make predictions. I also know from the families in Stikine how difficult Of course, I'll finish off this section of my remarks it is, and they try to balance their budgets on a daily basis about the motion on the floor around the former in order to survive under this government. Well, that is Premier's 15 percent tax cut. That wasn't that long ago. why I found it so shocking, and I was taken aback by the It was just eight months ago, back in the fall. It was on inability of this government not only to make projec- the table one week; it was off the table the following tions about budgets but also to manage budgets. week. This is a pattern around chaos and incompetence An example that struck me right away when I came around fiscal management. to Victoria was the $495 million deficit that this gov- [1655] ernment predicted in 2009 — not a penny more, $495 Now I will talk to some of the specific announcements million. When we actually saw the budget figures come that were made around this motion, specific announce- in, the budget deficit was four times larger. Now, that's ments that were made last week in a desperate attempt not just a little bit. That's not even in the ballpark. If a to save the HST, Again, I'll quote the Premier in an inter- family managed their budget that way, they wouldn't view. She said publicly: "We aren't going to be talking have food on the table. They wouldn't be able to pay about trying to reduce it" — the HST — "by a point or rent. They wouldn't be able to afford transit or an auto- two before the referendum. I mean, I think people will mobile to get to work. Four times larger than what was see that as buying them with their own money." Well, I predicted. think the Premier got it bang on. With these announce- What we see is that by the end of 2013 the public debt ments we see introduced by the Minister of Finance under the B.C. Liberals is going to be $26 billion more today, it is seen by the public as trying to buy them with while they've been in power in the last ten years. That's their own money. a 43 percent increase. It's an 8.6 percent annual aver- The Premier went on to say: "Cutting the HST by age increase to our debt load, and that's just bankrupting one point is more than $800 million out of the budget future generations. Again, it makes me think about the this year and every year after, $1.6 billion for a 2-point incompetence when it comes to financial management cut." In fact, I think the most recent figures are a little that this government has demonstrated. higher than that. The Premier goes on to say: "Either Seven of the 13 budgets they've presented over the we're going to have a $1.6 billion bigger deficit or last ten years have been deficit budgets. Five of the last we're going to have $1.6 billion fewer heart operations, ten years have been deficit budgets.O f course, the proud special needs teachers, school facilities, hospital emer- record is that in 2002 they had the biggest deficit ever gency rooms." — $2.6 billion. Again, I think of the people I represent So yes, the government could cut it. But at what cost in Stikine, and if they can't predict what their income to citizens? The Premier hit the nail right on the head. will be for the following year, then they're in big trouble. At what cost to citizens? She's pointing out the terrible, This government doesn't seem to be able to predict, not terrible costs these announcements in this motion are even in the ballpark. going to have on bankrupting our children's future. And 7566 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

the government's response to that is: "Oh well, we're go- invested. It's led to a decrease in the forest industry, ing to be able to balance the budget in three years after for instance. all." What do they predict that on? Four percent growth Well, the handpicked panel came up with a number in revenues per year — 4 percent growth. vastly less than the 113,000; they said 24,400 jobs over Well, just last week, the day of the announcement on the next ten years. Now, you know, a job is a job, and in these goodies, these gimmicks that were put out there my area jobs are important, but what this government to try to buy people to vote for the HST, the Conference has done is again shown its complete incompetence in Board of Canada had a forecast of growth for B.C. of 2 the ability to predict what some of these economic indi- percent. They said thatB .C.'s economy is an exception to cators are — 113,000 down to 24,000. It's a litany, hon. an otherwise strong economy in the western provinces. Speaker. We've got the Conference Board of Canada, a nation- I wanted to quote the current Finance Minister's ally recognized authority on these things, forecasting a words during the leadership debate to finish off my -re growth of 2 percent for the year, and this government sponse to this motion. In regards to his leader, he called basing its predictions on 4 percent. All that leads to is the Premier's leadership style and management ap- bankrupting our children's future, no money for the fu- proach "Ready, fire, aim." That's not a flattering image ture needs of this province, and it's just a really terrible painted by the current Finance Minister about his leader, way of running the economy. but it's exactly the approach to the HST issue that this Today another example. Statistics Canada came out government is taking under the Premier and under this with some numbers on restaurants. Restaurant sales are Finance Minister. They've bungled the entire issue. up in every province except B.C. — every province except What I say to the members on that side and to the B.C. They're down 0.6 percent over this past month inB .C., Finance Minister specifically is: "Stop the charade." The and restaurant sales are down 2.2 percent over the past consumers of this province know better. Stop treating year, the first full year of the HST being implemented. them with disrespect and such arrogance. They're treat- The CEO of the Restaurant and Foodservices ing the consumers as if they're always wrong; they're just Association, Ian Tostenson, said in regards to the an- misinformed. If they'd only get it, everything would be nouncements that are included in this motion: "If this was better. That's arrogance. American Idol, this is not the government's best perform- I say: "Withdraw this motion, admit that you're ance. This isn't going to be great." That's a knowledgable wrong and listen to the people of the province." They CEO of the Restaurant and Foodservices Association. know what's going on. It's a transfer of costs from big The elements of this motion are not going to make a corporations to consumers of $1.9 billion. They know shred of difference to the Restaurant and Foodservices the elements of this motion are an attempt to buy them Association and restaurants in this province. with their own money. The people of this province The handpicked panel that this government picked to aren't going to take it from this government anymore. analyze the HST, based on their analysis and based on They will deliver that message on this referendum, and further analysis of statistics through B.C., has come up they're going to deliver that message in the next prov- with the fact that middle-income earners — for instance, incial election. a teacher and a mechanic, those two together — would pay an additional anywhere from $2,400 to $2,700 a R. Sultan: Well, I don't know if I have enough band- year under the HST. What is this motion offering them? aids to patch up all the wounds. The member for Stikine A one-time — one-time — transitional assistance pay- has aimed his barbs at me with abandon, but I will, I ment of $175. It's unclear whether that would even think, refute a good deal of what he says. I'll try. Not that apply to these middle-income earners. Again, the HST there isn't some element, some small element of truth in is costing people. It's costing people in the pocketbook. some pieces of what he says. It's costing consumers. Again, the previous member on this side talked about The handpicked panel that this government commis- a stroll down memory lane, and I guess it is perhaps use- sioned to look at jobs around the HST…. Well, previously ful. I'll give you my impressions of how we got into this the government said there would be about 113,000 jobs situation we're in, by the rather sudden and not neces- that they see could be attributed to bringing in the HST. sarily well-communicated introduction of the HST to That, of course, is just theory, because it's based on the British Columbians. fact that there might be some trickle-down from large One of the most immediate problems, of course, that corporations reinvesting money into their businesses we as private members encountered was a difficulty in that might create more jobs, but no certainty around getting answers to some pretty basic questions, such as: that, no rules or regulations around that. "Are taxes going to go up on this, or are they going to [1700] go down on that?" "What's the impact, sort of, product In fact, we've had experiences in Stikine where and service by service?" Very little information was companies have taken the money and run and not re- forthcoming. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7567

My faithful assistant Terry set out to design her own It was quite a performance — one of the great dema- analysis of what was going to go up, because lots of flak gogues, one of the great charmers of political life in started to come our way. She had on one knee the PST our history — and it was a spectacle to behold. You handbook and on the other side the GST handbook and might, incidentally, go to YouTube's "A letter to Bill spent several weeks trying to sort out what is what — for Vander Zalm." Many of you, I'm sure, have watched it. example, finding that miners' safety helmets did not pay It's somewhat ribald, not for children under 14. It was the PST tax, but miners' safety lamps were taxed. quite incredible, the stories he made up. We all looked Under this new regime, of course, everything would at it and shook our heads and wondered when someone be subject to a tax. Similarly — she'd worked in a deli — would call him to account. she pointed out that sandwiches to go were not subject This was the man, just to remind us, who invented to the PST if they were given to the customer without the property transfer tax — if we're going to talk about a plastic knife or fork, but if they included the plastic taxes — who planned to take away women's right to knife or fork, they were subject to the PST. choose, whose solution to the welfare program was to [1705] give everybody a shovel and put them out maybe on The whole PST regime had become so Byzantine the chain gang — who knows — and the capstone, saw through the collective and accumulated decisions nothing particularly wrong with taking a brown paper of virtually generations of politicians always anxious bag full of small bills from some Asian millionaire for a free hit and to make something new tax-exempt down at the Bayshore Inn in the middle of the night in that the administration of the PST had become an front of witnesses, saying he was just going to hold the impossibility. money in trust. As has already been pointed out, in the Small Business Well, this person, this personality, this man with a Roundtable in which I participated as well, many small mission, I think many of us found quite appalling, and business men and women said: "Please relieve us from I suspect many on the opposition bench too. But he was this complexity. It is taking too much time, and we are obviously inflicting such great wounds upon us that they asking our retail sales clerks almost to be chartered ac- decided to join the party and hitch their cause to his countants." And the government responded. wagon as well. I would chastise my good friends on the Again, I don't think any of us can particularly defend opposite bench for having accepted the leadership of Bill how it was done. It was done badly, and even the min- Vander Zalm on this issue, because I think it's a despic- isters have conceded that point. The analysis — and we able situation that occurred and not one that all British heard more of it today — of the specifics of who misled Columbians can be proud of by any means. whom reminds me of the rehash of the Watergate scandal [1710] or something. Who knew what and when, and on and on Collateral damage — very heavy. Our Premier was the dialogue goes. It's all ancient history now. one of the casualties, the first to go. I have my own impressions of the truth, but it's all Credibility — poor, as has been reminded to us fre- somewhat irrelevant. What is important for British quently in this debate. Columbia today is: what tax policy are we going to A shift of tax policy decision-making in the - popu have going forward, and what suits the competitive list direction despite the example of California, where circumstances of the times? The question that maybe populist-driven tax decision-making has virtually somebody…. I'm not sure if I can use, Chair, with refer- bankrupted the state and has resulted in a regime where ence to a historical circumstance, the word "lie." Am I they're spending more on prisons than on universi- allowed to do that? ties. My heavens, do we really want to go for a regime where we submit taxation to referendum? We are being Deputy Speaker: I believe you can, as long as you're pushed increasingly in that direction. I call it all part of not putting that onto another…. If you're using a direct the collateral damage that, unfortunately, we inherit in quote about someone else. the situation. So that's history. That's the past. We're talking about R. Sultan: Well, the suggestion that people had lied the future, as I said, so let's fast-forward to the present in the past was bandied about frequently. Thank you for day and discuss the bill before us to bring in a new HST. that guidance, Madam Chair. The "l" word. Put simply, we're going to cut the HST from 12 to 10 per- Then amidst this rushed introduction with a rather non- cent, and we're going to raise corporate taxes from 10 to existent communication plan, the unknown happened. 12. A certain symmetry — 12 to 10, 10 to 12. That should One Mr. Vander Zalm decided to come out of retire- be easy enough to explain — and a few interim payments ment. My impression at the time was he cut through the made to make the medicine go down in the short term. B.C. Liberal Party like the German panzer divisions go- That's the bill in a nutshell, as I interpret it. ing through Poland in the fall of 1939, leaving all of us Wonder of wonders, despite the collateral damage, wounded if not lying on the ground expired. despite Mr. Vander Zalm's skilful forays through the 7568 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

ranks, despite the hitching of the wagon to his cause on Why is it good? It avoids the pyramiding of the sales the opposite benches, the most recent pollings suggest tax as it goes through the value chain. I think most of that maybe, maybe it's beginning to work. I believe it you are familiar with that arithmetic. It only taxes prod- was Ipsos-Reid that said the people in favour of the new ucts once. It broadens the tax base to include services. HST is now greater than those opposed. Early days, of This is partly what all the screaming is about. course, and there's much yet to be communicated and This is partly why Brian Mulroney's party ended up debated, but I think, for the first time, we can begin to with two members in the parliament after the GST. All see the glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel that we those services that were sold and escaped taxation were may, in fact, have a reasonable chance of winning this all of a sudden taxable. It was the goods and services tax, referendum despite the massive problems that we had a brand-new idea. Services should be taxed. Why should to deal with. they be taxed? Well, we have to pay taxes. We want a Our opponents — learning these startling facts, good education system. We want health care that's there thinking they had beaten us into the ground completely when we need it, and it should be paid for by everybody. and that we would never recover — it seems to me, have It should be a broadly based tax system. resorted to name-calling. That's their rejoinder. They re- The services, whether we're talking restaurant meals mind me of the janitor in the church who's cleaning up or the dry-cleaning bill, have been escaping. They have the pulpit and he sees the preacher's Bible open and in not been paying their fair share of taxation. That's why the margin he's written a little note to himself: "Weak we tax services. Everybody, all types of products and point. Pound pulpit; shout loudly." services, should be included. The weaker the argument, the more the volume of ex- Finally, it's simple. It's none of this stupidity about clamation rises in this House, it seems to me, and the the sandwich with or without the plastic knives and more the name-calling occurs. I find out this afternoon forks included. So that's why it's good public policy, and that I'm sneaky, for example. Well, maybe, maybe. The I believe that. It's good public policy to support these peculiar argument is advanced, as I interpret it: "The ventures, even as amended, so we have a new HST in a argument will be made that the new HST is so good, treacherous financial world. they will never actually do it. So they're misleading We think we're rather hard done by in British people by presenting this new plan. Because it's so good, Columbia because we're taxed so heavily. The reality is they'll never do it. They'll stick with the old plan." that we're one of the low-tax havens of the world. Not Much of the attack, and the member for Stikine re- too many people believe that when I say it, but that's peated this several times…. He attacks the old HST, but what the numbers tell us. the purpose of this bill is to introduce a new HST. We're Perhaps one good thing in this debate…. We have the not here to talk about the sins of the past. We should remarkable phenomenon of members on the benches really be trying to have a thoughtful debate about the opposite, including the member for Stikine, com- merits or demerits of the future. The past is past. Let's plaining that we might be raising taxes on business or forget about hitching the wagon, Bill Vander Zalm, all that we might be going into debt. It's an arch conserva- that stuff, the "l" word, and let's talk about tax policy for tive philosophy that he is espousing. Well, that's not a the future. Isn't that what we're here to decide, not to re- bad outcome. If people on the opposite bench think that criminate one another about our failings of the past? raising taxes on business isn't necessarily such a great [1715] idea and should be criticized, if they suggest that gov- I wrote in my own margin, as I attempted to thump ernment debt isn't necessarily a very good thing, you and raise my voice…. In the playground when I grew know, it's not all bad. I would say that those are maxims up, you know, almost a century ago — not quite — one that I've always held true. of our ultimate insults to somebody we didn't like very The reality, though, is that this government has, in much was, "Your mother wears gumboots" — not a very the ten years it's been at the helm, reduced taxes ser- sophisticated rejoinder. But I'm always expecting mem- iously and has restrained debt as measured by the bers of the opposite bench to stand up and say: "And debt-to-GDP ratio. Any university or hospital which furthermore, your mother wears gumboots." That's the has tried to get a new capital project going knows how level of discourse that sometimes seems to characterize tightly administered the iron law of that debt-to-GDP what should be thoughtful tax policy debate. ratio is. Back to the basics. I said at the time the HST came Is this sensible public policy? It certainly is. The rat- in that it's good public policy; terrible politics. Boy, that ing agencies love it. We had three successive increases was an understatement. I think it's superb public policy, in our debt rating, the ultimate report card on the pro- in fact, but I think the political aspects were even worse bity of how this government has run its financial affairs. than I realized. They were absolutely dreadful, and I've The government which preceded us, unfortunately, had tried to describe some of the carnage that we've experi- a string of debt downgrades. enced as a result. [1720] Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7569

Now, if I could believe the member for Stikine…. They 99-page report on the subject to what I thought were the had booming employment, balanced books. Everything leading members of the opposition, suggesting that not was wonderful. It's so contrary to the evidence. We only that assertion but the sub-assertion that my own should get together after this debate, and maybe he can riding of West Vancouver–Capilano has one of the high- show me where he gets those marvellous numbers, be- est childhood poverty rates in all of B.C., not to mention cause it's quite contradictory to everything I've ever seen some economists' calculation that Canada was one of in the Finance Ministry's own reports. the worst in the world, leading me to conclude that I So we have an active choice facing us, British represented the worst of the worst of the worst in my Columbians. How are we going to pay for the government riding…. After a year of massaging the data,I said: "This services that we all value and which members opposite is a lot of nonsense." value perhaps even more than we do? We have to pay [1725] taxes somehow. I think the value-added tax is good tax I'm disappointed that a member with the experience, policy. As was mentioned earlier, 140 countries around the intelligence and the grasp of this government of the the world have reached that conclusion. Nobody who member for Vancouver-Kingsway would resort to "Your has abandoned the sales tax, where you have the com- mother wears gumboots," particularly when what he de- pounding of tax on tax on tax, has gone back to it — once clared, frankly, is not true. it's been abandoned — for any length of time. So with that, I will wind up. I think that this bill de- We should protect the basic integrity of the value- serves strong support. It gives us the hope of salvaging a added tax, which is what this bill does, and it is the basic very sound tax policy system. If I could quote Professor question we're putting to British Columbians in the ref- Kesselman, if economists have any remaining credibil- erendum. It is going to be a close thing; I'm sure of that. ity in this day and age, he says: "Any larger cut in the The demagoguery and the damage and the insults have HST rate" — he's a professor of public finance at Simon done their job, and it will be a close thing. But I think Fraser, by the way — "can only be justified by the need that if we care about the fiscal health of this province, to secure public support to retain the tax and avoid a and we should, we do not want to be faced with massive return to an economically damaging sales tax." Direct layoffs in the public services as many countries around quotation from the source of all wisdom, Tyee magazine. the world are now engaged in. I happen to agree with Professor Kesselman, and I hope Read what's happening to them in the United you will too. Kingdom. At the extreme, see what Greece is up to — wholesale liquidation of Crown assets, probably at 50 M. Karagianis: I'm happy to take my place in this cents on the dollar under distressed circumstances. This debate on the ever-changing HST policy. I have never is what happens to countries that let their finances get in my life seen such a chaotic rollout of tax policy, ever way out of whack, and we don't want to go there. in the history of this province, than I've seen in the last We are an oasis of financial rectitude, and I think couple of years with the HST. the world is watching us very closely to see whether — It seems to me that with each new iteration of the driven by populist tax decision-making; driven by severe HST and its great values to us and its ever-changing face criticism, some of it justified; driven by demoralization and impact, we get this instantaneous slogan from the and the sort of insults that we've had a taste of today — B.C. Liberals that "That was then; this is now." And who we say: "Gee, we tried, but we could not maintain the knows what will come tomorrow? I think that it gives centre." "The centre could not hold," to quote a famous the entire province a real sense of uncertainty about poem. Perhaps we retreat from all of the fiscal rectitude what the future holds, and that concerns me greatly. that has brought a high degree of confidence and pros- In my community the impacts of the HST are being perity, I think by any standard, to our province. felt every single day by working families. The impacts Finally, I have to comment on the Leader of the on those families — I hear about that. I see that in my Opposition, the member for Vancouver-Kingsway — community every day. The fact that there is a sense of back to the "Your mother wears gumboots" rejoinder. chaos and confusion and uncertainty about the future, He winds up his attack on this reform, shall we say, of I think, has continued to harm my community and will our approach to the HST not with some philosophical continue to harm British Columbians and our economy discussion of tax policy, not on the impingement of the until we get a sense of certainty. various tax burdens on one element of society or an- This ever-changing tax policy of the HST, from the other. But he shouts out that phrase that — I checked in day of its inception here in British Columbia through to Hansard — has been repeated 100 times in this House today…. I don't think it gives us any sense of confidence at least, namely: "...and furthermore, that we have the in what the government is doing. highest childhood poverty rate in Canada...." If you look back to pre–the 2009 election, we knew I would ask: what has that got to do with how we then that there were all kinds of economic issues that design our HST tax policy? Furthermore, I've sent my were beginning to unfold worldwide — certainly south 7570 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

of the border — and anticipated that some of those The reality is that since the day of its inception the would have an impact on British Columbians. We were harmonized sales tax has been about rewarding big constantly reassured by the B.C. Liberal government business at the expense of families. Every family is feel- that no such thing would happen here, that we would ing it every single day in their pocketbook. minimize it. Interestingly enough, I had a very recent experience which showed me how it is impacting business in a num- [L. Reid in the chair.] ber of different ways. My washing machine went on the fritz after 15 years, and I found myself having to go and We have seen, in fact, that that was itself a huge un- purchase a new energy-efficient, state-of-the-art washing truth. There were huge impacts coming. Their agreement machine. While I was in the course of that sales trans- in writing with the restaurant industry that there would action, the sales clerk said to me: "You're the local MLA. be no HST was, of course, a complete flip-flop in the What do you think is going to happen with the HST?" days after the 2009 election. That, accompanied with a And I said: "I don't know. How do you feel about it?" And growing awareness that we had a debt and deficit in this she said: "I hate the HST. My customers hate the HST." province that was escalating out of control by billions of Of course, all of those highly energy-efficient appli- dollars, have gone hand in hand to begin to create two ances that she was selling had at one point been exempt years of paralysis in this province while the government in an effort to do the environmentally responsible thing has done very little except focus themselves on the HST here in British Columbia. Under a negotiated provin- in one form or another. cial sales tax, there had been exemptions for purchases Whether it was rolling it out initially and trying to of energy-responsible merchandise. All of that was justify to British Columbians why they were suddenly removed under the HST, and that particular sales de- being given a new tax, a new and regressive tax, that partment was really feeling the impact and had heard was going to cost families more, at the same time giving from all of their customers about how much they dis- huge benefits to big business…. The government began liked the HST. then to try and justify, from that day forward, this har- That in itself gave me confidence that British monized sales tax. Columbians are not buying the spin that they've been I, with many others in this province, listened with great hearing for the last two years on the HST. In fact, many interest to the then–talk show host and now the Premier of them are simply just holding tight until they have a of this province talk about her views on talk-show radio, chance to vote in this ballot and do what I believe British listening to British Columbians. Her feeling that the gov- Columbians will do in large numbers, as they did with ernment that she had once been a part of, in fact…. the initiative, which is to vote down the HST. [1730] It's interesting, also, when I think about the fact that She says of them: "It's an insult to British Columbians the latest iteration of the HST — because we've gone for the government to, first of all, have brought in this tax through revenue neutrality and found out that that in what most of us would regard as a very, very sneaky wasn't true; we've gone through many of the other argu- way, and then refuse to bother to explain why they did ments that the government has put forward and found it properly. They can't even be bothered to mount a de- that each and every single one of them was, in fact, not fence. And I think that's an insult." true — changed within a very short time when there was It seems to me that we have begun to see an interesting pushback. We hear consistently and constantly from the culmination of public opinion led by the now Premier of tourism industry, the restaurant industry and other parts this province in tandem with the ever-shifting efforts by of the business sector that it is a hurtful tax for them and this government to try and convince British Columbians has cost business and jobs. that this regressive tax is good for them and that there So we continue to see this HST get tweaked and is actually a solid policy in place, despite the fact that it moved to what we are currently seeing from the govern- continues to change almost monthly here in the prov- ment and from the B.C. Liberals: their declaration that ince and has continued to create uncertainty for the that was then, and this is now. The HST of a couple of business community. weeks ago was a certain percentage point. Now it's go- We saw a huge uprising by British Columbians, with ing to be new in the future — next year, several years 700,000 people signing, in an unprecedented and his- from now. And when I look back again to what the now torical moment, the initiative petition to get rid of the Premier had to say about this just even a few weeks ago, HST, and I think that that should have been a very clear where the Premier had said to the public: "We aren't go- message to the B.C. Liberal government that they were ing to be talking about trying to reduce by a point or two on the wrong track. British Columbians were not happy before the referendum. I mean, I think people will see with the tax that they had delivered and were not buying that as buying them with their own money." into any of the rationale that they had given us for why Well, in fact, that's exactly what we're seeing. We are this tax should be good for us. seeing that there has been this shift away — a promise Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7571

that the HST will be reduced once and then again by has gone about spending our money to try and tell us that 2014. This very thing that the Premier said would not even this new iteration is good for us. We're seeing hun- happen is happening. This whole impression that people dreds of thousands of dollars spent on advertising, spent may be being bought with their own money has, in fact, on attempts to promote and convince us and brainwash come to pass. us with our money that this is a good idea. Not only do we [1735] have this huge shift of our money being taken out of our Once again this gives more substance to this feeling pockets to the benefit of big business, but now we're see- of uncertainty and chaos in an ever-changing world ing a lot of it squandered away on all kinds of advertising around the HST. You have to ask yourself how common and attempts to convince us that this is good. household purchases could possibly not be put on hold Again, it seems that the message shifts every other day. for sometime in the future, knowing that the HST has The first group of ads that came out didn't talk at all about lost a point now, a point in 2014. Before we're done, if this kind of new attempt to tell us that a tax reduction in there's enough pushback from British Columbians on 2014 should be something that motivates us right now to this, I wouldn't be surprised to see the B.C. Liberal gov- get out there and vote in favour of the HST. ernment try once more to sweeten the pot. What this has done is the HST has caused big win- If you're purchasing anything major, if you have to, ners and big losers. The big losers, unfortunately, are in my case, purchase a washing machine…. Mine went constituents like mine and other members of this on the fritz. I had no choice. I couldn't wait a couple Legislature who are trying to get through their day, try- of years, but if I thought that I could have gotten away ing to get through their week, trying to get through their with not purchasing something for a couple of years month, raise their families and make ends meet. What and not had to pay the fairly significant HST that I we have seen is this attempt to convince us that it's only had to on my energy-efficient appliances, boy,I would a small impact on our household on a yearly basis, only have certainly waited, like many British Columbians $350 per household. who may be waiting to buy a house or build a house or I again would like to take great exception with that, renovate their house or purchase anything new in the because I think it's going to prove to be yet one more of way of new appliances or other significant purchases, the absolute falsehoods that have come out of this HST, waiting to think maybe the HST is going to have yet one of its many iterations that will fall by the wayside as another iteration. we take a closer look and families begin to calculate at This whole idea of revenue neutrality. I think British the end of the year what it has cost them. Columbians do get this, and I think it is one of the [1740] things that angers them the most. I hear about it every I mean, everything from clothing to school supplies to day in my community from constituents — that they are things like sports camps and summer camps, the kinds deeply angry and offended that the government would of things that families are going to be now engaged in, as in any way try and fool them into thinking that this tax well as all the other costs that they have had to bear for shift from big business onto families could in any way the HST — things like the new washing machine that I be considered neutral, because in fact it's not neutral to had to purchase and other families have had to purchase families. It's more expensive every single day. as well, all along with all those other costs. In addition to that, now of course we've seen that the There will be the continued drip, drip, drip of these whole idea of neutrality, which was one of the big selling costs into families' pockets which I would be wildly sur- points on the HST, has gone out the window. Now we're prised would ever contain themselves within a $350 cap. talking about the fact that the HST has become such a In fact, I think that families are probably seeing much significant part of the revenue stream here that it will af- more than that, even middle-class families. In the last fect health care spending and education spending. ten years in British Columbia we now have middle-class And yet, when this came in, the first attempt to sell families considered the working poor. this to British Columbians told us that this was going to Everyone who is making an effort to get from payday be a neutral shift of money away from big business onto to payday in the best possible way will see all of these families. It wasn't going to hurt a lot, wasn't going to be costs begin to add up. What will happen is that families a big deal and certainly was not going to have an adverse will begin to give up these kinds of opportunities, things effect on the essential services in this province like health like summer camps. They'll begin to give them up as if care and education. Now we have seen, in fact, that that they were luxuries. They'll have to fall by the wayside be- is what's at stake here, and we've heard that threat, not so cause they'll be unaffordable. veiled, over and over again, from government members Is that what we wanted in British Columbia? Trying to and even hinted at by the Premier herself. provide simple opportunities for your kids and trying to While we are going through this chaotic state of try- make sure that you do the right thing by your kids sud- ing to come to grips with what the HST looks like today denly becomes a luxury item that even hard-working, and what it might look like tomorrow, the government two-income families are no longer able to afford. 7572 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

I'd like to talk a little bit here in the last few minutes and a lot of soul-searching as to what really is going on that I have in this debate about the nature of the refer- here and what I wanted to say in response to the govern- endum itself. Now, we were promised very distinctly by ment's motion. I guess what I want to say on the record the new Premier of this province that there would be now is more a reflection of my own stream of conscious- an electoral-style referendum. It was certainly going to ness and kind of how I see this. ThenI will indicate how be moved up from September to June. Everyone antici- I intend to vote as a result. pated that, and we thought that there would be a very [1745] finite process around this referendum, that it would be I think we can all agree that HST is probably the worst an election-style referendum. form of politicizing tax policy that any jurisdiction has Instead now it turns out to be yet another — and I'm ever encountered. I think it's fair to say that both sides going to use the Premier's words here — kind of sneaky would concede to that. Ministers and members of the activity here or action by the government around how government have indicated the process was abhorrent. It this referendum is coming, because of several things. It was an awful way to do things. As the opposition mem- will come in a ballot, and I would be willing to bet dol- bers are indicating, the word "sneaky" is now being used lars to doughnuts that thing will look a lot more like relative to that. junk mail than it does an official election tool. We have On the flip side, to be fair, the opposition is using this several weeks to try and fill this out and then find a way for maximum leverage in advance of both the referen- to either mail it in or drop it at a depot. dum and, potentially, a fall election. I think most confusing of all is that it's counterintui- It really causes us to pause — I would hope it causes us tive because, in fact, people will have to vote yes if they to pause — about how we work in here and what kinds want to get rid of the HST and no if they want to keep it. of things we need to do to somehow take that over-the- So for anyone who is the least bit uncertain or not con- top partisanship, that over-the-top politicization of a fident about this process and gets this ballot, it could be very difficult, very complex public policy and start to get very easy for them to confusingly tick the wrong box. back to governance and to public policy. It seems to me that every single aspect of this HST, The other thing I think HST does, as I reflect on it, is from the day we were told that we weren't getting it to it really calls into question the role of the MLAs. I think the day we were told that we were, and all of the various certainly as I sat as an opposition member and watched forms and iterations it's taken, all the excuses we've had the government members as they dealt with the HST for why we had to have it — save the economy; revenue as it unfolded…. I think, to be fair, it caught them by neutrality; oh, now it's for health care; oh, wait, we're go- surprise, just like it caught us by surprise, when it was ing to reduce it — all of these things have continued to announced. I know that they were getting phone calls. give us an air of uncertainty. They were getting people questioning them on the street, So while people in my constituency wait to see exactly just as we did. what is going to happen with the HST, they are not only Again, it calls into question how we are informed — cynical now about government and its intentions…. not just as opposition members but also government They have been disappointed repeatedly and have found members — about public policy, about how things are that most of the things they thought to be true about unfolding. this, change at the whim of government. Each and every We've got the Yale treaty coming up in this House. I time they run into unanticipated opposition to this that wonder how many of even the government members they feel is insurmountable, they simply move the goal- have had input into that, and there are contentious as- posts, shift the game. pects of that that none of us in this House should take Most people now have determined that for big pur- lightly. chases, they're simply going to wait it out. You hear from The whole HST and the history of the HST, I think, the homebuilders that that is a huge problem facing would be interesting for some master of poli-sci or eco- them. You hear it from all kinds of sectors that people nomics to take a look at as to: what does this tell us about are simply waiting it out to see: what will the next itera- how dysfunctional our decision-making has become be- tion be, and will it be better or worse for me? cause of this perpetual electioneering, this 365 days of I think the only iteration that will work for British doing battle with each other and positioning for the next Columbians is to say: "Yes, yes, I vote to extinguish the election or fighting the last election? HST." Certainly, the intention for me is yes, I will vote Certainly, from 2009 on, I don't think anybody can no to this motion. Yes, I will vote yes to extinguish underestimate what occurred with respect to the initia- the HST. tive and leading up to the first successful initiative in British Columbia. People want to split hairs on the num- B. Simpson: I've got a few words to say here, and then bers, but fully over half a million British Columbians I'll concede the floor. I have to say, as a sitting independ- indicated that they wanted this HST to go to a referen- ent member on this one, I've had to do a lot of thinking dum, and we're leading up to that now. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7573

Now, I joked with some of the government members to make a political point, that my constituency is wholly that I think probably the most honest way to couch the on one side or the other is simply, categorically, not true motion before us would be to simply say, "Yes, we're try- and not fair to the process. ing to buy a positive outcome," because that's exactly In fact, I was threatened with recall by the initiative what is happening. group in my riding and, again, lots of signatures, one I would argue that if the opposition was in govern- of the highest signatures. When I sat with them, they ment and they were facing the same circumstances and indicated that I was supposed to go to Victoria and they had an opportunity to try to influence the outcome make sure that the HST was repealed, go and tell the of a referendum, they'd do the exact same thing. They Premier that's what needed to be done. I invited them to would signal in advance something that they felt met the join me to go talk to the CEOs and the managers of our test of the public's desire for change, and they would do sawmills, to join me in talking to the chamber of com- the exact same thing. merce, to join me in talking to the Quesnel Cattlemen's I think it's disingenuous to be crying foul that some- Association, the Cariboo Cattlemen's Association and how this is an inappropriate thing to do. In fact, if I look other interested parties who actually felt that the HST at question period, there were some questions asked reconciled a lot of things about their business that did in question period about whether the minister would make them more competitive and did address a bunch actually stipulate if the exemptions on PST would be re- of issues that they had with sales tax. stored if the referendum failed, and the minister was in I also went and met with all of our restaurateurs and trouble for not signalling that and so on. Now that the pub owners. The HST, in conjunction with .05, in con- government is signalling what they're going to do with junction with the issues that they're confronted with in HST if it passes, somehow that's not appropriate. terms of minimum wage, etc. — they see it all rolling up With respect to the tele–town halls, I've listened as into a perfect storm for them. So there are small business opposition members put forward that those things have owners and entrepreneurs that struggle with this. been engineered. It's not the response I get from my con- So for us to stand in this House and for members to stituents. The constituents of mine that have participated stand and say, "I have a unified voice thatI can represent," in those found that they were awkward. There were lots is simply not credible. It's not true. We have a broader obli- of people involved. There was a kind of awkwardness to gation to actually say: "It's more complicated than that." the thing, but they felt that there was a genuine attempt What's really at stake here, and I think it's the critical fac- to provide information to people and to engage people tor for us, is that this was bad process writ large. in a different kind of technology. Does the Premier going out and seeking advice and I don't join with the conspiracy theorists to think that talking to people, address one of the issues that was part that was all engineered for a specific outcome, and cer- of that process — and that's the transfer of tax to consum- tainly, I'm not being given that back. ers, to people on fixed income? On balance and at face [1750] value, that's what the motion attempts to do. Whether it's What's really at stake here, I think…. With respect to politically motivated or not, I as a legislator am standing the HST itself as a tax policy, I don't think that harmon- here saying: "Okay, if the HST does pass, what would I izing sales tax or value-added sales tax is bad tax policy. I like to see happen to it?" That's what this motion is say- was on the Finance Committee for two years, heard loud ing. If the HST passes, the government understands from and clear — and it had been going on for a long, long its dialogue that there are people who want it rebalanced, time — people from all sectors of the economy asking that want it to come down on the HST and to go up on for the harmonization of provincial sales tax. corporate taxation and rebalance. There are good reasons to harmonize your sales tax, That's an argument that was made at length in thisH ouse, and there are good reasons not to. I think that debate of: a $1.6 billion transfer to consumers off the backs of corpor- do you lose your ability to manage your sales tax through ations. This motion offers a rebalance.A s a consequence, I a PST by going to a harmonized sales tax…? What's the feel obligated to say: "Yes, if the HST referendum passes, I plus and minus of that? That's a fair argument, andF inance would like to see the government take this step and, there- Committees had indicated that the province should take a fore, at face value, will be saying yes to this motion." reasoned look at that. Both the opposition members and It has nothing to do with coming over to either side or the government members both indicated that harmoniz- getting involved in the partisan debate all again. However, ing the sales tax needed to be taken a look at. I would ask the government and the Premier to consider I also think that it's unreasonable for us all to stand that this is the beginning of a bigger conversation. A read- in here and represent as a unified voice the constituents ing of the budget and the documentation that's provided that we represent, because I know I can go back into my to us around the HST is: we're in serious trouble. We're constituency and there are people who love the HST. I in serious trouble about meeting the balanced budget can go back into my constituency and I find people who legal requirements in 2013-14 and 2014-15. hate the HST. To simply stand here and pretend, in order [1755] 7574 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

We are in a situation where we cannot guarantee an generally to the economy as a whole as a result of the economic rebound and, as my small brain can read the harmonization of the sales tax system. budget documents, the budget document is explicit that Whether that is at 12 percent, which is where we're we are going to have a hard time balancing the books as at today, or with reference to this specific votable mo- long as public expectations are as high as they are for de- tion in bringing it down over a period of three years livery of public service. from 12 percent to 10 percent, the model of taxation So I would ask the government to consider what others is the right one. have called for, and that is for us to look at the taxation re- The member for Cariboo North pointed out that this gime more holistically. Are we pricing natural resources motion specifically addresses the concerns that we heard correctly? Is that an area where we can get more revenue from the public with regards to the HST, to the mechan- in a natural resource–constrained world? Are we doing ics of it — not to the information or lack of information our progressive taxing properly? Do we have our income that is out in the public realm with regards to the HST tax pegged properly, corporate tax pegged properly? Let's but the notion that it rebalances taxation. go and look at the whole situation once we get this HST Clearly, we heard from the public that they were un- debacle behind us at the referendum. comfortable with the notion that the HST model, as it But on balance, I feel compelled as a member of this was proposed, has today moved taxation from corpora- Legislative Assembly to give the government face value tions to individuals. The public, in the work that we did on the motion, and if referendum is passed, if HST re- listening to the public, showed that there was real con- mains, then I would like to see this rebalancing occur cern over that. We accepted that. The new model that we that's proposed by government. are proposing through this votable motion reallocates that back in a way, I think, that is responsible, that meets Hon. P. Bell: I know I just have a few moments. I the tests that are necessary of us balancing our budget understand there will be a vote at six o'clock on the over time, albeit very challenging, as the member for motion this morning, but I just wanted to take the few Cariboo North pointed out. It will be very challenging. moments that I have to really reaffirm my support for We will have to work very, very hard to make sure that the HST but also in perhaps sharing some of the under- we achieve that. standing that I have come to in the last six or eight weeks [1800] as a result of the role that I had in listening to people Madam Speaker, noting that we are now at six o'clock, across British Columbia and the telephone town hall and I believe that there is an opportunity for a vote, I will meetings specifically. retain my place and continue speaking to this motion What I have come to understand through that period of after the vote and after the recess that I will be propos- time is the massive misunderstanding that exists around ing momentarily. the HST. I'm sure that came from a lot of reasons. I'm sure there is lots of blame to go around with everyone. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] About 5,000 people took the exam on www.hst.ca that asked people questions about what HST was applied to Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, we will now be doing and what it wasn't applied to. What we found through the division on Motion 12. that process was that 60 percent of British Columbians Will members please take their seats. believed that basic groceries from the grocery store went [1805] up in price as a result of HST — clearly not correct. We Hon. Members, the question is: "Be it resolved that all understand that. Fully half of the people that took the this House support the efforts of our federally-qualified test on www.hstinbc.ca believed that gasoline for their marine contractors in acquiring contracts for build- automobile went up in price — clearly not correct. ing large vessels for the Canadian Navy and Coast The massive misunderstanding that has resulted from Guard, recognizing that capitalizing on the $33 billion admittedly a poor implementation of the HST I think National Ship Procurement Strategy will expand British really makes it necessary for us to ensure that the pub- Columbia’s economy and shipbuilding expertise." lic is fully informed on what is undoubtedly the most important vote that the average British Columbian will Motion 12 approved unanimously on a division. [See make in most of their lives. Votes and Proceedings.] TheH ST comes down to some core set of principles in terms of trying to build an economy. As someone who Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported has worked in the forest sector, as someone who lives in resolution and progress, was granted leave to sit again. a forest-dependent community, as someone that repre- sents arguably the most forest-dependent community Hon. R. Coleman: I move that the House recess for in British Columbia, I know that there is a huge and 30 minutes. After the recess, in Committee A we will positive impact to the forest industry specifically but do the continued estimates of the Attorney General, Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7575

and in this House we will continue with the discus- inates the duplication that was necessary previously sions on Motion 11. with the provincial sales tax system. It also eliminates We will recess for half an hour, until 6:40. the tax-on-tax issue that comes to play with the provin- cial sales tax model, where taxes are collected at various Motion approved. points of a product preparation moving through to the end consumer, and that that tax has to be passed on. In Mr. Speaker: This House stands recessed until 20 reality, it often ended up as much more than 7 percent. minutes to seven. It might have ended up as 8 or 9 or even 10 percent of the total price of a specific item, maybe, related to the The House recessed from 6:09 p.m. to 6:45 p.m. provincial sales tax. The administration of the HST eliminates the need [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] for about 300 staff at a provincial level because there is simply one tax being collected and a very easy form of Introductions by Members tax to collect. We continue to be in business in Prince George, and I know that the simplification for us in our Hon. P. Bell: Just before I get started, I'd like to intro- own business has allowed us to streamline the work that duce to the House my daughter Donna Hobbs and her needs to be done at an administrative level. husband, Matt Hobbs. I'd ask that all members please The third point that I wanted to mention that I think make them welcome. is absolutely critical is with the changes that we are suggesting here as part of this debatable motion, this Debate Continued truly does become very fair to families and individuals across British Columbia. As the member for Cariboo Hon. P. Bell: Before I conclude my remarks on this North mentioned earlier, it is a rebalancing of the tax, very important votable motion, I want to highlight four an increase in the corporate tax rate of 2 percent — not specific things thatI think we need to turn our attention something that this government has been known for. to and our minds to as we contemplate the vote in the We've been known as a government that has reduced upcoming HST referendum on June 22. taxes, not increased them. Admittedly, that is a difficult decision, not one that I think any of us particularly cher- [D. Black in the chair.] ish. But it is important to have a balanced budget and to make sure that we don't continue to run up deficits in The first one of those four items is the importance this province, and we have to, if we are going to reduce of the support of a value-added-type tax to the econ- the HST down to 10 percent over a three-year period, omy of British Columbia. It clearly creates advantages find other sources of revenue. for many of our natural resource sectors and our ex- I think industry has accepted this quite well. They port businesses, and roughly one out of every $7 in our understand the benefits of staying with an HST system. provincial economy comes from export-type businesses. The headline,I think, in the Vancouver Sun editorial that Those businesses were previously hampered by a 7 per- I saw the other day really highlighted that. It said that we cent provincial sales tax. maintained all the benefits of anH ST system to business, While at times that may be less relevant in a min- and we removed the challenges for families and for indi- ing industry boom cycle like we have right now, in the viduals in British Columbia. forest industry, where we've had very, very challenging The new model that we're suggesting — going down times, where companies have been operating at the to 10 percent over three years, an increase in the cor- margins, where they've had to close their operations, it porate tax rate of 2 percent, an increase or a levelling is clearly an element of support for the industry that of the small business tax at 2½ percent — I think does is within the constraints of the softwood lumber agree- bring balance. ment and allows us to ensure that we have one of the Even though there has been some criticism from vari- most competitive forest industries in the world. ous chartered accountants identifying that this particular So $7 a 1,000 board feet is a significant amount at the issue of the corporate tax rate going up by 2 percent has margins of the business, and that is what the contribution engendered some real hostility at times, I might say, I do of the HST is to this particular model. But that expands think that on balance it makes sense and works for us. beyond simply forestry and mining to industries like [1850] tourism, industries like film, other export-based indus- Finally, Madam Speaker, and to close my comments, tries and first-dollar industries that have a significant I'd really like to say this: this builds a better taxa- benefit to our province. tion system for the future. Regardless of who governs The second key element I wanted to mention is the this province, whether it's the B.C. Liberal Party, if an ease of administering this particular form of tax. It elim- opposition gets elected at some point in time, it is ab- 7576 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

solutely critical that we have an administration system Whether you argue about child poverty being the and a taxation system that sustains the business oppor- highest in Canada or not, we know that child poverty tunities in this province and generates sufficient revenue has increased. We know that the divide between those to provide the services that everyone expects, and that's that are wealthy and those that are in poverty has in- exactly what this does. creased. We have created a province very deliberately That's why I was so pleased just a few minutes ago to with these policies that is less fair than it was, and this is hear the previous opposition member, now independ- one more step in that process. ent member for Cariboo North identify that he is going The feedback that I get from my area has been very, to support this motion because he does, I think, accept very consistent, and it really, up to this point, could not that we've responded to the public. We understand the be clearer to me. People found the HST very unfair. Tax challenges that the public has identified. We've pro- policy in British Columbia is always exacerbated in my vided a balanced outcome, and for that reason, along area from our proximity to Alberta. with many others, I will be wholeheartedly endorsing [1855] today's motion. The types of businesses we have very often are busi- nesses that will be intended to draw people in from N. Macdonald: Just to take my turn and to speak again Alberta. For instance, with the tourist industry, the im- on an issue that really has dominated this Legislature pacts would be profound because everything that goes since 2009, one of my colleagues from Cowichan Valley, on in tourism is something that will be compared to just newly-elected in 2009, asked over dinner what we what's happening in neighbouring jurisdictions, in par- did before the HST in this House, because it seems one ticular Alberta. issue after another has led us to talk about theH ST here Just to give it as an example, Panorama ski resort. About in the House. So we continue. 70 percent of the people that are coming there will come This is a motion that was put forward by the- gov from jurisdictions to the east and, therefore, they have de- ernment, and essentially what it does is it takes the cisions they make when they come into the area. announcement of last Tuesday, and it puts it in front of So it could not have been clearer to me that on the this Legislature and gives us an opportunity to speak to tax shift and what people thought in my area, people it. I think there's very little that can be said that's new on did not like it. I think for most MLAs, they would have the HST, but I'll certainly try to make the points that I been able pretty clearly to see that people didn't like fairly consistently made with regards to the HST. what was going on. There was the petition. In my area I think that very early on, when it was announced in 30 percent of the people found a way to sign the peti- the summer following the last election in 2009, it be- tion and to indicate to government that they wanted came immediately clear that for many of the things that the HST gone. we did not pay PST for we would now pay, in addition, Now, to be fair, it's not as easy to say how people have the HST. What that meant was that there were savings reacted to these changes. Since this was introduced on for major corporate and industrial parts of the tax base Tuesday, I've been back in the riding for the three days. and that there would be a significant shift. A few people talked to me, but I can't honestly say how I think what this motion recognizes is that that shift is all people feel about the changes. significant. The government has given up trying to sug- But pretty clearly, they took the time in an unpreced- gest in some way that as it stood, the HST would be a ented way beforehand to talk about the HST. I'll just take break-even for consumers. It simply wouldn't. They are one issue, just one issue. It illustrates some of the com- recognizing that there is a $1.6 billion to $1.9 billion plications that were caused by the HST. It deals with the shift, and it comes after a decade of similar shifts. sale of second homes. There has been a significant change in how we raise Golf courses, ski resorts depend tremendously on the funds for government, and the implications of that we sales of real estate. When the HST was introduced, the see anecdotally and we can measure. When you shift second-home buyer would be paying an additional 12 taxation from major corporations and you put it on the percent, and that's money they could not recover. So on backs of families and individuals, there is a consequence a $300,000 condominium, for instance, they would be that is predictable, and with this government, that tax paying $36,000. policy is very deliberate. It has benefited corporations, Well, if you have a second-home buyer that can and it has hurt individuals to a significant degree. choose between British Columbia or Montana or the What we see with this tax is that, again, we are going Alberta Rockies, that is a significant barrier to them to inevitably have services cut, and we will have taxes choosing to come to Kimberley or choosing to come to and fees increase for most ordinary citizens and taxes Kicking Horse Mountain Resort and buy property and lifted from corporate interests and privileged interests. buy those condominiums. That's just one of a whole What we see on the ground is a deliberate policy where, host of issues that people took the time to write to me as I said, the results are predictable. about as their MLA, and I know that all of the MLAs Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7577

that are here received many of the same concerns. Now, or when it's convenient, then what's going to happen clearly, with this motion there's recognition that there changes dramatically. are severe implications for people. That's why there's an It's on health care — where you want it, when you attempt to change it. want it — even on the convention centre, which was The next part that I want to talk about here is per- mentioned before. It's a quote from one of the members haps a more difficult part for this government. I always here, the clear promise that it's going to be $495 million thought — and I've listened to other members — that and not a nickel more. I mean, you could not be more the merit of tax policies is one that people understand clear on the commitment from the government when and will have a variety of opinions on, including on the the minister responsible says that, yet if you took the HST. You will have a variety of opinions, and I under- nickels that were spent beyond that $495 million and stand that. But with this issue you cannot remove the lined them up, it would be a line, if they were touch- issue of trust. I think this is really where you cannot, ing, all the way to Halifax and halfway back. So clear knowing what we know since 2005, really support a commitments made here in this motion are naturally motion like this, because it has to be seen in the context something that most British Columbians simply are not of the experience that we've had not only in recent years going to find as trustworthy. but since 2005. More recently the deficit promise of "$495 million Even beginning with this motion, and I think many guaranteed" simply was not a guarantee that turned out members have pointed it out, the Premier herself char- to be in any way accurate. All of these commitments acterized it as a bribe. What's the problem with, as the were made unequivocally when the clear intention very Premier has said, "bribing" with our own money? There often was for the government to do something that con- are significant problems. So the Premier herself recog- travened that promise. nizes that this motion is problematic from that point On the HST specifically, again, there really is absolutely of view. no reason to trust. A written commitment in 2009 that [1900] there would be no HST — very clearly the opposite hap- Secondly, it asks us to trust the government to follow pened. When the HST was introduced, the way it was through on commitments. None of the things that are characterized turned out to be something that was char- talked about here are things that are going to happen acterized in a different way, when it became convenient to immediately. They are all going to happen after the ref- do so, and on and on. Like I say, we have been through so erendum and possibly after a provincial election. many debates like this as the government changes the in- I cannot, after being here since 2005, trust that the formation, changes the things they put out as facts. government is going to follow through on those commit- The bill was saying that the money raised by the HST ments. Even in the text of this motion the government is was going to be entirely for health care. I mean, we breaking commitments that they made not that long ago. passed a bill on that issue, and it turned out to be one They are making commitments into the future, and in more laughable part of this whole boondoggle. making them, they are breaking commitments they've Then we get reports paid for by the government. It's made in the past. But it goes deeper than that. This is a the Mintz report. It's Dinning. It's the Fraser Institute government that, time and time again, has chosen to act doing their own — numbers all over the place. The ones in a way that undermines the public trust in what they that are convenient for the government they throw out are going to do. there and play with. But the reality is that most British In a general sense there are so many examples of ex- Columbians would agree that the government simply plicit commitments that have been routinely broken by has no credibility. this government, and I think we are all familiar with [1905] them. People should be familiar and haven't forgotten When you look at the motion and the government them. It goes back to when they first stepped into power lays out the things that they are going to do, then basic- with the breaking of the health employees union con- ally what you have is something the Premier describes as tract. It was an explicit commitment not to do that that a bribe, and most British Columbians would say: "Well, the government then moved quickly to break. you cannot constantly make promises that you break The B.C. Rail scandal — we still do not fully under- and expect to be taken seriously." For that reason alone, stand what took place there, but a few things we know. the motion needs to be defeated. We know there was an explicit promise not to sell B.C. The third point is something that, again, is troubling. Rail, and then we know that there was a move immedi- The government seems to believe that simply by telling ately to sell it. A clear commitment was made and very itself they're good managers, in fact they are, when the quickly broken. evidence points again and again to the fact that on many, In this motion we talk about things that are going to many issues there is bungling. There is no more obvious happen or things that are supposed to happen. Yet as example of that than what's happened with the HST. It soon as they're given the opportunity after an election has been bungled completely. 7578 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

When the Minister of Finance stands up and tries to de- got it right when he said that taxes are the dues we pay fend the HST, basically one of the defences is: "This is such for the privileges of membership in an organized society. a huge mess that if we have to go back to what we prom- They're the necessary evil that fund our schools and hos- ised to do during the last election, it would create a fiscal pitals, and taxes are the reason we can build the roads catastrophe." Well, if your argument is that you've made and bridges and rapid transit we all want. The reality is such a mess that you're afraid to try to get out of it, that that taxes will disappear the day we all stop making de- speaks to the bungling that's gone on. So with this motion mands on government, and not before. we have, again, a case of fiscal mismanagement. Don't get me wrong, Madam Speaker. Like everyone There's a likelihood that this creates a pretty chaotic in the House, I get it. I know that people who complain situation. I don't think any British Columbian thinks about taxes can be divided into two classes: men and that a tremendous amount of thought went into the women. fiscal implications of what's suggested here. This isa We all know that the HST could have been introduced political fix. The implications, if the government is -ac better, and some British Columbians remain angry tually to follow through on them, are pretty profound. about that and perhaps rightly so. Everyone on this side The Finance Minister once condemned a type of fiscal of the House has the scars to prove it. We could have and policy-making that he now embraces — that ready-fire- should have done a better job at introducing this major aim method of financial planning. change in tax policy. But there are implications to tax policy being made But today, as we head towards the HST referendum, in such a slipshod manner, implications that will mean I think we've got to suck it up, as my kids say, and start either that this government will not follow through on its thinking and acting like adults, and that means putting commitments or that it will and will create a chaos solved B.C. first and our personal concerns second. The fact by only deficit or cuts to services or raising fees and taxes is that when everything is said and done, the HST has somewhere else. That is the predictable result of following been dissected in every possible way, and it is the right through on some of these proposals here. tax at the right time. It has a real feel of back-of-the-napkin tax policy. It's The HST is the kind of tax we need to grow our econ- hard to see what the consistent philosophy is, and like omy and make our province more competitive. It's I say, the myth of B.C. Liberal managerial skill is just the kind of tax that reduces paperwork on our small really put to the test with what has gone on with the businesses. It's the kind of tax that makes our forestry, HST. I think many would see this as an irresponsible mining, oil, gas, agriculture and manufacturing busi- and a pretty cynical gamble that compromises our long- nesses more competitive and able to provide the jobs we term fiscal health. all need right now to continue the recovery as we come Basically, then, the HST is part of making B.C. a less out from under the international recession. fair province. That's one reason not to support anything It's the kind of competitive tax that made sure B.C. film that promotes the HST going forward. Secondly, with studios recently won the production of the upcoming this motion in particular, it asks us to trust the govern- Superman movie that will create 800 jobs. When it comes ment when any sensible person would by now know to taxes, the old PST is like kryptonite to job creation, and that they can in no way trust them. They simply have without the HST, that film would be made elsewhere. not earned the trust. Third, it is another example of This government understands that taxes are necessary, where the province's finances are being mismanaged in but we also understand that a strong economy is the an irresponsible way. foundation of everything we want to do for B.C. fam- This is tax policy that is made on the fly with no regard ilies. That means a tax policy that works, a tax policy for our long-term fiscal health, so I won't be supporting that keeps B.C. businesses competitive, and a tax policy the motion. I don't think it's a motion that deserves sup- that recognizes we cannot and should not spend more port. With that, I turn the opportunity to speak to it over than we make. to those that would follow. We're all familiar with McDonald's new NDP value meal. You simply order anything you like, and the per- M. Stilwell: It's a pleasure and a privilege to stand in son behind you has to pay. That approach is the way the this House today in support of this motion, although I NDP passes off today's costs to the next generation. have to agree with the great parliamentarian Winston As a mother, it's not the legacy I want to leave for my Churchill, who said there's no such thing as a good tax. children or for any family in this province. Our gen- In some ways Mr. Churchill was right. There may not be eration, the generation that is spending today, needs to any good taxes, but there are definitely some that are ne- make sure we can afford the things we're buying today, cessary. That is the big difference in this debate. as a society. This government refuses to leave today's [1910] bills on the table and have our kids pick up the tab We all know that there are as many jokes about taxes as down the road. In my own community there's a Jewish there are jokes about politicians, but Franklin Roosevelt proverb that says: "Taxes grow without rain." Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7579

But if we have to have taxes, and we all agree we do, mail-in ballot and just a tremendous amount of toing then we have to make sure those taxes work for families. and froing. The HST, with the changes introduced by the Premier I'm sure the members opposite probably said to their and the Minister of Finance last week, does just that. esteemed new leader: "Look, just show us what the plan The HST builds a better economy, and that's something is." They want to see a map,I 'm sure, of what they're in for, all of us need if our families are going to prosper. but I'm not sure that our erstwhile Premier actually has a Ronald Reagan used to joke that government's view map. I think they're beginning to wonder as well. of the economy could be summed up in a few short Certainly, the Liberals see the train coming down the phrases: "If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate track, and they are doing anything they can, which they it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." Many a truth is think, they hope desperately, will somehow get them said in jest, and tax jokes are a dime a dozen — or 11 over this HST obstacle. cents, with the HST. Well, there are more promises being thrown out. We've It's pretty clear that taxes and tax policy are prob- seen promises and broken promises and re-promises ably never going to capture the public imagination. But around the HST. This is another one. O" h no, don't worry, together, we have a big decision to make next month. Do we're going to reduce it in the future, next year. we put B.C. first and do the right thing when it comes "We'll drop it a percent," they say, "and then maybe later to the HST, or do we vote against the HST just because on, 2014, we'll drop it another percent. Just trust us." we're angry at how it was brought in? "Now, you know you can trust us around the HST. We None of us here can rewrite history. We can't go back have an immaculate record on that account, so never and change the past. We can only move forward and do worry. We may be saying one thing, but it's not that we're the right thing, the right thing for our families, for our going to do another. Just trust us." That's what they're job-creating businesses and for the long-term future of asking British Columbians to do: to trust them on a file British Columbia. where they absolutely have no credibility whatsoever. That's the choice we have, and like my colleagues on As far as the corporate tax rate that they, in a this side of the House, I believe British Columbians will Stalinistic fashion, are now raising, they say, 2 percent, make the right choice next month, because like us, they they're telling business, "Don't worry. Don't worry. It's want to put B.C. first. only temporary, and as soon as we have a balanced budget" — which they still claim they're going to do in M. Sather: Well, my, oh my. We're witness to the on- the spring of 2013 — "don't worry, we'll get rid of it, and going saga, the ongoing debacle of the HST that this we'll drop that small business tax and all those goodies." government has brought upon itself and brought upon, That's, of course, before this phantom second 1 percent unfortunately, the citizens of British Columbia. We have is supposed to happen. a new Premier now who has had a number of things to It is the most unbelievable math you can imagine. I say about the HST. think that as we go through this once again twisted — [1915] and, hopefully, the last — process around resolving the She's been in a rush, it seems, to deal with the HST. HST, British Columbians certainly are seeing through She's tried a few things. I'm not exactly sure why she's in the government's machinations. such a rush, but it seems to be tied in with the necessity We all know the famous, now infamous, statements that she feels to call an election soon. Now, I don't know. that the Premier has made about buying people with Even her good friend Bill Good is saying: "You know their own money. I mean, I couldn't have said it better what? Maybe you ought to try governing for a while" — myself. Thank you very much, Madam Premier. I've got you know, that arcane concept — "and we'll see how we to admit, she can be helpful at times when it comes to like you then or not." looking for quotes from the other side. No, she's bound and determined to have an election Then the government commissioned a report, the soon, apparently, but she had that little HST problem to Dinning report, saying that the HST is going to cost the deal with. When she was running for the leadership, she average family 350 extra dollars a year, notwithstand- said: "Well, what? That's no problem. We'll get rid of it. ing a few big-ticket items like a house and renovating a We'll just get all those MLAs that are waiting for me to home — those kinds of minor deals. be crowned to go in the House and vote against it." Of course, another study, Stats Canada–based, said it Well, you know what? That didn't go over so good. would be $520 a year — or it is that — that it's costing Some of those MLAs said: "Just wait a minute. You the taxpayer. That one also didn't take in housing and know, we actually have done that already, and we voted home-related investments. for it." She kind of had to retract that one. That didn't [1920] go over very well. If you look at what some of those costs are, an Then it was going to be a vote on the 24th of June, I $800,000 home, which certainly isn't unusual in the think. That didn't happen. Now it's dragged out to a Lower Mainland, knocks you back 19,250 bucks in HST. 7580 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

A $700,000 home, it's 12,250 bucks. You spread that kind people in this province signed a petition to get rid of of an expenditure over quite a few years, and you still get the HST. You know, we haven't seen a voice like that be- an average that gets jacked up quite a bit, I would sug- fore in this province come forward and say how strongly gest, above even the $520 figure. The member for Peace they feel about it. River North figures it is costing him between $600 and What effect does it have on the street? I was talking $800 a year, and he's probably right. That's probably to somebody the other day. I don't know if their figures around what it is. are way out of whack. You look at contractors, for ex- The former Finance Minister, the member for ample. A friend of mine was telling me they had some Vancouver-Quilchena, said: "Don't you worry. Business landscaping done, and they had to get a contractor in. is going to pass on their savings to the consumer." Now, I She was talking to the contractor about the HST: "How haven't heard too much about that claim lately, like some does that affect you?"H e said: "Well, my problem is that of the other ones. The revenue neutrality of the tax — I can't find anybody that will pay the HST, even when I that's another one that went out the window. But if you offer, even when I want to pay the HST. It's hard for me just look at the big exporting industries — like oil and gas, to find anybody that will do it." like mining — they sell their product on the open market, Obviously, he's got tax forms to fill out next year, so the international market. It doesn't make a whit of differ- he needs to show something for that. The fact of the ence whether there's HST in little old B.C. or not in terms matter is that it's a total underground economy, which of what they get for their product. So what incentive is there is no accounting for. How much is the HST cost- there for them to reduce the cost of their product? None ing us that way? A lot — you know, the people who now whatsoever, and they don't. They don't. aren't waiting to see about the renovations, to see if the HST is gone so that they can save a whole bunch. All too J. Les: The NDP really doesn't get it. many, unfortunately, are not paying any HST. They're going under the table. M. Sather: The member opposite doesn't get it. We [1925] realize you don't get it, Member. The whole province There's the roughly revenue neutrality myth that we realizes you don't get it, and no matter how much you certainly know was not true, and on it goes. try to spin, no matter how much you try to weave on the Let's talk a little bit, in the few minutes I have, on what HST, the facts of the matter are that it's a scam. It really is affected by the HST. A lot. Live theatre, movie tick- is, and it's a shame. ets, amusement parks. These are costs that weren't there before, which are now there with the HST. Veterinary Deputy Speaker: Member, may I remind you to ad- care; accounting; architecture; wedding planners; cater- dress your remarks through the Chair, please. ers; acupuncture and alternative medicine; yoga; dance; cooking and martial arts programs; haircuts; team sport M. Sather: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I'll do that. fees; private facility or community centre rentals; ice It actually is a shame, and you know, rather than try- rink rentals; taxis and commercial bus fares; car washes; ing to manipulate again the people of British Columbia, auto towing; emergency roadside services; bicycles; you hear them saying: "Well, okay, we screwed up big school supplies; basic telephone and cable; magazines time." Yeah, okay. And there's that $1.6 billion; they and newspapers; part of the cost of non-prescription haven't taken all of it yet. There's another $500 million drugs; vitamins and certain other health care products; that they're going to collect, I assume, on July 1 before appliances; new housing. they get to the referendum vote. Sometimes we hear that if you buy a new house, it's "But never mind all that," they say. In fact, you hear only if it costs more than $525,000, but that's not the the members opposite telling British Columbians this case. You're still paying 2 percent on up to $525,000, a kind of chiding thing. "Well, you have to support the total of $10,500, a lot of money that doesn't count be- HST, because look at the ramifications. Look at the re- cause it's one of those big-ticket items. The hurt goes sults if you don't, like the $1.6 billion." on and on. Well, excuse me. That's their fault that there's $1.6 bil- They're offering some reductions to some folks lion on the hook. It's not the fault of the people of British through this, a one-time-only reduction of $175 a year. Columbia, and it's appalling to hear them stand up here But it's going to cost you, by the way, before this is fully and say that British Columbians now have to accept it — implemented, this phantom reduction in the HST, if it "suck it up," as the member for Vancouver-Langara just ever is introduced. By the time it is fully introduced, said. We just should suck it up now. you will have paid another $800 in HST, and that $175 I don't think so. There's no reason why the people of a year is going to take you until after 2020 to even break British Columbia have to suck it up when a government even. That's the kind of pig in a poke that this govern- has been so disingenuous, as this government has been ment is offering to the people of British Columbia and around this issue, and continues to be so. Over 700,000 expecting them to swallow. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7581

I don't think so, Madam Speaker. I think the people of J. Les: I am pleased to respond briefly to the mo- British Columbia are too wise to do that, and I think we tion that's before us this evening. This is actually a are going to see that in the vote to come. pretty important debate that's happening, but even I wanted to talk a little bit about some of the comments more important is going to be the decision that British by the very nice gentleman — and he is a nice gentleman Columbians are going to be making in about a month in — the member for West Vancouver–Capilano. I won't the province of British Columbia. I don't think it's pos- even say what he referred to, but I just want to go over sible to overestimate the impact of that decision. some of the economic record of this government. Aside, possibly, from provincial elections themselves, This government has run up…. This supposed anti- this will be the most important collective decision that deficit government has run up a deficit of $47.3 billion in British Columbians will be called upon to make so far this province, on top of which they have another $53 bil- in the history of the province. We are talking about a lion in so-called contractual obligations. It's another word decision that involves the collection in one way or an- for debt that this government has run up. They've run up other of billions of dollars of tax revenue, and it matters seven deficit budgets since they've been in, including a lot in terms of how those taxes are levied, how they're the biggest deficit in the history of the province. They've collected, who pays them and when they are paid in an been a have-not province six times, and the B.C. Progress economic chain of events. Board report in 2009 found that B.C. was sixth out of ten Rather than have this debate degenerate into political provinces for business investment. They have the second- one-liners and gotcha types of political events, I think lowest rate of productivity growth in the country. it is very important for British Columbians to have a The member called it "an oasis of financial rectitude." sound and reasoned economic discussion about which Madam Speaker, if that's an oasis of financial rectitude,I is the best way forward. For me there is absolutely no would hate to see what the other side of the coin is, be- question. TheH ST is a sound tax. It is better by far than cause it would be a very scary thing indeed. I think what the antiquated provincial sales tax that we used to have we're looking at is a desperate attempt — you know, a — 1949 vintage. Hail Mary pass. "Let's throw this one more time. Let's go. I think it's fair to say that there is a very large inter- What else can we do to convince British Columbians to national economic consensus that value-added taxes believe us now? We're going to do this; we're going to do are the best for the modern economy. The HST, of that. If you were to vote in favour of the HST, then we're course, is what we call it here, but it is a value-added going to follow up on our promises" — of course, in like tax. I don't think there's any question around that fact. manner that they have done so far. Governments of all persuasions around the world, [1930] socialists as well as capitalists, have brought in the There's a whole range of other things — maintenance value-added tax and use it happily. costs for condos and rental properties going up due to We have a socialist government in the province of the HST, even the parking tax in Vancouver. Restaurant Nova Scotia. I have been able to find no evidence that sales in B.C. are trailing the rest of Canada since the HST they disapprove of the HST in the province of Nova was implemented, notwithstanding what the Finance Scotia — no evidence whatsoever. As a matter of fact, Minister says about restaurants and how disparagingly they are so enthusiastically in favour of the tax that they he speaks of the restaurant association: "They're lobby- recently raised it to 15 percent, the highest in the coun- ists." My goodness, this government lives on lobbyists. I try, which kind of leads me…. can't imagine them speaking ill of a lobbyist, but there you have it. There's a lot of amazing things that have Interjections. happened in the way that this government has presented themselves around this issue. J. Les: I detect some unhappiness on the opposition I think the government should not just apologize for benches. I suspect secretly that their disapproval has to the first round of missteps, shall we politely put them, do with the fact that the tax we are proposing is too low, but they should apologize for the whole thing, includ- because we know that the new opposition leader is on ing the way they said they were going to equally fund the record as generally being in favour of higher taxes the two sides of the referendum. Instead, they've come and more spending, which is the New Democratic Party out with $7 million. All but 4 percent of it is roughly as we've known it in British Columbia for all these years. designated towards supporting the HST: their friendly That's what they've consistently been in favour of, more HST website, the $700,000 that they wasted last fall with taxes and more spending. a flyer that got thrown in the trash. [1935] There should be apologies for all of that, not more ma- We certainly hear the opposition in the House every day nipulation. With that, all I can say is that I definitely will calling for more spending. If you're going to have more be voting against this motion. It's a sorry tale, but there spending, then I guess you're going to have to raise more you have it. taxes or jack up the accumulated debt of the province. 7582 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

Let's just get off this notion for a moment, from the place here in the 1990s or the government since 2001. opposition perspective, that this is an ideological debate. Well, we can debate that for hours and hours in this Ideologically the members of the opposition are not op- House here, but let's look at what happened to British posed to a value-added tax. I would suggest that flat out, Columbia's credit rating in the 1990s. It went south. It because I find no evidence anywhere of any other so- went south in a serious way. cialist party that is opposed to a value-added tax, not After 2001 we slowly worked our way back up toa one anywhere. If members opposite can show me one of triple-A credit rating, the best credit rating there is. That those, I'd be happy to consider the material. verdict, Madam Speaker, has not been rendered by mem- We have this very important motion in front of us bers of this House. That verdict has been rendered by the and, as I said, an even more important event happening credit-rating agencies that do that work all the time on in about a month. We have others around the province an international basis. They have said quite clearly that who are suggesting that they'd like to provide some a B.C. Liberal government is better to manage the econ- input. Mr. Vander Zalm has already been mentioned. omy than an NDP government. The evidence is there, He suggests, for example, that somehow in British and it's clear. Columbia we have given up our economic sovereignty At the end of the day, as I said, a very important deci- by entering into the harmonized sales tax. I guess that sion for the people of British Columbia to make, and it's wasn't an issue in the province of Ontario or Quebec, or not going to be a decision they should base on the pol- the maritime provinces. itical wit or lack thereof that's expressed in this House. I think the very fact that we are considering this mo- They need to carefully consider the evidence and think tion in the House instructing the federal government about what the impact of their decision will be on fu- as to what to do with respect to tax policy in the prov- ture generations. ince of British Columbia is a pretty good bit of evidence [1940] that, in fact, we definitely control tax policy in British Many of us in this House have grandchildren. As Columbia, as we always have, and we have ceded none members will know, I have quite a few grandchildren. of that economic territory in British Columbia with the I actually think it's very important to think about what advent of the HST — absolutely not the case. our decisions will mean for them. I don't think that The fact that we've got this resolution in the House, there's any debate whatsoever that from that perspec- that we're debating it and that pursuant to the agreement tive the HST is the best thing we could do in British we have with the federal government, this resolution will Columbia. It doesn't matter for me personally. It really cause the federal government to do certain things pur- doesn't matter for me personally. Life will go on if we suant to it I think is certainly very good evidence. have to go back to the PST. But I know this: for my Members opposite have also suggested strongly, in grandchildren we are much better off with the HST in- some cases very strongly, that they want to go back to stead of the PST. the PST. Not only do they want to go back to the PST, but On that basis there is absolutely no debate in my mind they want us to go back to the PST in exactly the same whatsoever. I'm voting for this motion, and I am voting form as it was previously. The opposition Finance critic in favour of the HST on June 24. has repeatedly asked the government Finance Minister over and over again to commit to bringing back the ex- S. Simpson: I am pleased to join the debate here act same PST as was in place before. around Motion 11, which is the motion that will enable Now, of course, if that were the case, if the referen- the latest scheme of the government as they desperately dum were to go the wrong way and we would be obliged try to work their way out of this HST mess that they put then to go back to the PST, and if we were to go back to themselves in. the PST as it was before, I'm sure even the opposition When we talk about this, I think it's important that we Finance critic knows that we would have about a $3 bil- take a moment to realize how we got here. How did we lion hole in the budget. end up in this situation that we're in today? You know, we actually need to stop and think about Well, the first thing you have to understand is that this that a minute. Is it responsible for anyone in this House is a government, the B.C. Liberals, that for years and years to be advocating for a position of that nature? I don't opposed the HST. , one of the predecessors think it is. of the current Finance Minister, was absolutely clear in her opposition to the HST — where it cost us economic Interjection. sovereignty, where it just didn't make sense for British Columbia. The government maintained this position J. Les: The member for Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows, right through the 2009 election. They maintained this who's trying to interject in the debate here…. You position to the point of responding to questions from the know, he talked earlier about who are the better finan- restaurant industry in writing where they essentially said cial managers, the government that was previously in that they would not introduce the HST. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7583

That was the position they took. They took that next day it's going to create jobs that are within the mar- position right up to the election. Of course, the other gin of error, 2,400 jobs a year — within, probably, the position they took heading up to the election was a $495 margin of error of job creation in the province — over million deficit, maximum. British Columbia was go- ten years. So it's within the margin of error. ing to do better than everybody else in tough economic Maybe the Finance Minister might want to learn a lit- times. That was going to be the deficit. Of course, what tle about economics now that he's got this file, because we saw immediately after the election was that this gov- he hasn't demonstrated any capacity in economics, any ernment had to acknowledge that we were looking at a capacity at all. debt that was billions higher than that. The government, all of a sudden, had made this big Interjection. mistake — the biggest mistake in the history of not just this province but maybe the biggest mistake in the his- S. Simpson: Yeah, well, we've seen the performance tory of financial reporting anywhere in this country. It so far. could very well be. It certainly was a huge, huge error, Economic growth, they talk about. There is no but they quickly wanted to dismiss that. evidence of economic growth other than the bought- What did the Premier of the day do? The Premier said: and-paid-for studies. The reality is this: this is a massive "I'm embarrassed because I look like a fool, and my gov- tax shift. It's a massive tax shift onto working families ernment looks like fools. We either look like fools, or we and small business. look like people that misled folks. Let's figure out how The member for Chilliwack talked about this govern- to drive that number down, and we will do anything to ment's ability to manage. He didn't talk about the debt in drive that number down." this province, the debt that's reached record levels under What did they do? The federal government, who quite the B.C. Liberals, $47-plus billion. rightly wants the HST adopted across this country so Next year, in the year coming up, a 13 percent in- that they can have greater control of tax policy in the crease in that debt. We'll go over $53 billion to almost country, said, "We've got a billion six for you" — $1.6 bil- $53½ billion, and for the next couple of years an over lion. "You take the HST; we give you the money." 21 percent increase in debt. That's the reality of where Well, there was no thought. It was: "We get a billion this government is going. What it is, is the reality that six; we're taking the billion six." That made the number it's a government that's desperate to get out of this HST a little bit more palatable for the Premier. Didn't matter mess and will sacrifice anything to do it.I t really doesn't what this policy meant for the province. It didn't matter matter. that this was a shift of almost $2 billion, a $1.9 billion tax Now what do we have? We have the government shift onto consumers, onto working families, onto small bringing forward this motion. They moved the referen- business from the corporate sector. But this government dum to June. Fair enough. But what do they do? They was prepared to fold up and do that immediately. move it to the Referendum Act. What's the reality of Hon. Speaker, again to remind you: before the election, moving it to the Referendum Act? no HST. Within almost minutes after the election, we're Well, the reality is we now have the most remarkable negotiating the deal on the HST. British Columbians attempt on the part of this government to buy this vote. across this province were outraged. They were outraged First of all, we have this motion that's going to attempt not just for the tax, but as the government side has ac- to buy this vote, and what is this motion all about? What knowledged, they were outraged that they had been so did the Premier say about this? dramatically misled by the B.C. Liberals. In March the Premier said: "We aren't going to be [1945] talking about trying to reduce it by a point or two be- We saw a level of public outrage that we have sim- fore the referendum. I mean, I think people will see ply never seen, probably in the history of this province. that as buying them with their own money." Nothing It was outrage at the process. It was outrage at the tax could be more truthful than the Premier's comments in shift. That was reflected in more than 700,000 people March. Of course, her view has now changed, but that signing that initiative — a remarkable accomplishment. was the view. Whatever you think of it, 700,000-plus people signed What else do we know? Not only have they attempted that initiative because they were outraged with the con- to buy it, but we have this unbelievable expenditure of duct of the B.C. Liberal government. $7 million to purchase it. How does that work? Well, What have we seen since then? Well, we've seen the we have almost $5½ million of straight-up government story from the government change on almost a daily money to promote the HST. So $5 million from the basis. The numbers change on almost a daily basis government — we've seen the stick man ads as they've from the government. One day it's going to be revenue- moved from the first ad on to become a crass promo- neutral. The next day it's making major money for the tion of the HST — plus $250,000 to the no side and the province. One day it's going to create 113,000 jobs. The $200,000 for the telephone town halls. 7584 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

Now, to be fair, there is other money being spent, so don't believe this government. They haven't bought this that's almost $5½ million. And $1.2 million was spent, latest sales job. I believe they are going to oppose this a half a million on public dialogues by the universities tax in significant numbers, and when they oppose the and $700,000 on a voters guide. That might have made tax, we will then get back to a discussion of how the tax sense to spend that money. Then, of course, there's policy works in this province, and we will move forward, $250,000 for the yes side. So almost $5½ million on the back to that discussion. no side and a quarter million dollars, $250,000, on the I will be voting against this, as will the members of yes side. That's the reality of the spending to try to buy the opposition. The people of British Columbia, I be- this referendum. lieve, will vote against this initiative when they get the [1950] chance, come later in June. The reality of this particular motion, as well, that we We will move forward. We will move forward in a just have no clarity on, no clarity at all, is what the effect progressive way in this province. We will move forward will be on government services. We're going to face a in a way that's fair for working families and for small cut that, depending on how you look at it, is somewhere businesses. We will move forward in a way that's fair for between $1.6 billion to $1.9 billion of government rev- consumers, we will move forward in a way that ensures enue cut out of this by cutting the 2 percent. We're the key government services that people expect from going to see that cut. government are funded, and we will move forward in a We've seen that the government has said they're going way that ensures we have an economy that speaks to the to balance the budget at the same time. We've seen no interests of everyday British Columbians. explanation by the government of which programs they I look forward to the rest of this debate and to the expect to cut in government in order to try to make that vote, come June, when we get to defeat the HST once happen. There's no explanation of what they're going to and for all. do. They've talked about, obviously, this position around the corporate tax increase, but they're very clear that's a K. Corrigan: I am rising to vote on Motion 11 as well. temporary matter, and it will be temporary in nature. The member for Cariboo North a little bit earlier said The reality of this is that we have a government here in this debate that the government had conceded that that has brought in this particular scheme to try to buy they'd handled this terribly. Well, they have. They are this HST vote in June. It can't be seen as anything else. concerned about that, I think, but I don't believe it's That's what it is. because the government feels bad in any way about de- The reality, though, is this. We're hearing this day in ceiving the people of the province. I think it's because and day out in the media. We're reading it in the news- they got caught at it, and the people rightly responded papers. Even after the government introduced this with a great deal of anger. scheme the other day, we are hearing that this govern- [1955] ment is not believable. I want to say that I am really proud of the exercise People don't buy it. They don't believe the government that brought us to this point of considering Motion 11. will carry through. They don't believe that it's anything but I'm proud of the British Columbians who worked, who a crass attempt to buy their vote. These are people who believed in their democratic rights and acted on those are very angry at this government for the way they intro- rights by coming together — 700,000 British Columbians duced this initiative in the first place, the way they misled coming together — to become the very first successful the people of British Columbia in the first place. initiative drive in B.C.'s history. Now they're being asked to buy it again, to believe People were enthused. They were empowered by that the government again, and the reality is that they're not opportunity to say that what the B.C. Liberal govern- prepared to do that. We have a government that is not ment did was not right. believable. We have a government that simply does not British Columbians are well aware of what it was that have a coherent policy around taxes here but is careening got people angry and got them motivated to work on from position to position when it comes to this HST in a the campaign, to make sure that they got all those little desperate attempt to get this tax through. And it really is tables set up in parking lots, in community centres, in a desperate effort to make this tax work. malls, on street corners. The thing that got them there We have a situation where we need to engage British was the deception of the B.C. Liberals and the HST, Columbians, I believe, in a much more thoughtful dis- promising first, before the election, that there would be cussion about tax policy, and we need to move that no HST and then bringing it in just a few short weeks discussion forward over the next period of time. But afterwards. that's not going to occur, because we're going to have to Well, we have a new Premier. What did our Premier deal with this matter. say about it at the time? Here's what she said at the time. The reality is that the people ofB ritish Columbia have "It's an insult to British Columbians for the government not accepted this position of this government. They to, first of all, have brought in this tax in what most of Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7585

us regard as a very, very sneaky way and then refuse to have been financially beneficial to the people of this bother explaining why they did it properly. They can't province if we had had a decision on June 24, as the even be bothered to mount a defence. I think," said the leader promised. Premier then, our now Premier, "that's an insult." [2000] Now the B.C. Liberals have a leader who apparently Did that happen? Well, the candidate became the thinks her colleagues are sneaky and insulting. leader on the promise that we would have a referen- She also knew what almost every other British dum on June 24, and she also promised in her platform Columbian knew, even when the Liberals were denying that the referendum would be conducted in the same it — that the Liberals planned to bring in the HST, de- manner as a provincial election; i.e., people would go spite claiming the opposite during the election. to the polls, and they'd vote on June 24 under the strict, When she was talking about whether or not this was stringent controls of an open, accountable, transparent planned in advance and the suggestion that it wasn't process that an election is. planned in advance, she said: "I just don't think it's pos- But what happened after the leadership was decided? sible that that could be the case." Such strong criticism Well, two more promises were broken. The vote that from the person who is now the Liberal Premier, essen- was supposed to be on June 24, that the Premier said tially saying the Liberals were misleading, saying one thing would be on June 24 — not starting, not commencing, and doing the opposite, insulting British Columbians. Yet but would be on June 24 — now doesn't end until July this is the party that she decided she wanted to lead. 22, with the results of the ballot not known until August, So here we are with Motion 11. This is the activity…. just a month short of the original September date. This is what has brought us to where we are today. The promised referendum, to be conducted in the What else did our esteemed Premier say during the same manner as a provincial election, now is a mail-in process that has gotten us here, debating this motion? ballot, or you can drop ballots off at collection stations. Well, on the first day of her leadership bid, the then This is so far from the strict controls that an election candidate proposed cancelling the HST referendum in process calls for that I think there is real potential here favour of a free vote in the House. This position was for, at the least, mistakes being made and, at the worst, then reversed on February 2, and she called for an early the potential for voter fraud. referendum instead, committing to the date of June 24, Now I get on to what we are voting on today and the which had been proposed by another Liberal leadership final broken promise from our new Premier, at least candidate who is sitting across from us in the House at until the next one. On May 25 the government an- this very moment. nounced that there would be a two-point reduction, a That candidate said at the time…. He called it a flip- reduction that won't be fully implemented until 2014 flop. He, of course, was correct that this now Premier after another election. What did Premier Clark have to flip-flopped on this issue yet again. say about lowering the HST previously? What else did the candidate, now the Premier, say and do? As I said, after first calling for a vote in the House, Deputy Speaker: Member, you do know that the use she flip-flopped to say that there should be -a referen of names is not appropriate. dum on June 24. "Move it up," she said, as did the other Liberal candidates for Premier. Her policy book said K. Corrigan: Oh, absolutely. I apologize. Thank you, that the date for a referendum should be June 24. Madam Speaker. What did the Premier have to say about lowering the [L. Reid in the chair.] HST previously? The Premier said: "We aren't going to be talking about trying to reduce it by a point or two be- She also said: "We're going to have a referendum fore the referendum. I mean, I think people will see that on June 24, and we want to make sure that British as buying them with their own money." Columbians are going to have their say." Over and over Now the B.C. Liberals are doing exactly what the again our now Premier said the referendum would be Premier of the province has said it would be — buy- on June 24, presumably to curtail the economic uncer- ing people with their own money. And who can say it tainty that is hurting British Columbia. better than the Premier herself that that is what is hap- It is hurting British Columbia, this economic uncer- pening with this latest move to reduce the HST by two tainty. I met with some real estate agents and developers points and to provide some money to the people of this a few days ago, and they said people are not building province? We didn't even have to accuse the govern- houses. They are not buying houses. They are not mak- ment of buying people's votes with their own money. ing large purchasing decisions because they simply don't The Premier said it for us. know what is happening with this tax. This last move and the whole history of the Liberal So it is important to have that uncertainty taken HST debacle would be laughable if the implications for away, to have a decision as quickly as possible. It would British Columbians weren't so serious. This is the biggest 7586 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

tax shift in B.C. history. Depending on the numbers that investment to put a few million dollars or several mil- you believe, it's a minimum of $350 for a family. But that lion dollars more into an advertising campaign that can even be a one-person family. StatsCan says it's more supports the HST? like $521 a year for the average family. It's a $1.9 billion It may be successful, but it's an unfair fight. I hope shift from corporate taxes to consumers — paying $1.9 that the people of this province do not vote in favour billion more. of the HST. With all the millions of dollars that are go- You know, you get the feeling in this House that people ing into that campaign to try to convince them, it is an who oppose the HST, people who plan to vote yes in this unfair fight — $250,000 to fight it and millions and mil- referendum to get rid of the HST, don't know what's lions of dollars to support the HST. good for them. But what I'm hearing in my community I'll be disappointed if it is supported. I think it's going is from families and from businesses that do believe they to put a further burden on the backs of families and con- know what's good for them. sumers and the small businesses in my community and [2005] throughout the province. There is a sense in this House that somehow sup- I'm going to be voting against this motion, and I'm go- porting the HST is now the principled and responsible ing to be voting in favour of the motion to end the HST thing to do. Well, the only principle that this tax repre- on June 24, or whenever it is I get my ballot. I hope that sents is that families are getting hammered while the British Columbians also vote to get rid of the HST. corporate sector is doing just fine, thank you very much, and getting rid of billions of dollars worth of taxes. S. Fraser: I take my place in the debate on Motion 11. It This has been a long history in this province.I t's been seems surreal to some extent. We're here in the last week a long history for the last decade, as we move more and of the shortest sitting of any Legislature in the history of more to taxes that hurt families, hurt the middle income, the Commonwealth, considering we haven't been here for the middle class. We have increased MSP premiums. We most of the year, and we're still dealing with yet another have increased ferry fares. Now we have the HST. These new story, another change in tax policy, in a desperate at- are family-hurting measures, as more and more money tempt for the B.C. Liberals to try to sell a bad policy, a bad is taken away and the responsibility for taxes is taken tax to the people of British Columbia. away from the corporate sector, and it is heaped on the [2010] backs of families and small businesses. It would be laughable…. It's somewhat Keystone With this HST, so many businesses in my commun- Kops–like how this tax policy has been developed. It's ity are affected. The consumers, the families and the the shifting sands of truth and consequence that change businesses that provide the services are now going to every day. I almost think it's designed to obfuscate, to be taxed at 12 percent or 11 percent or 10 percent. In confuse the people of this province, and I don't think it my community it's wedding planners, caterers, funer- will work. als, tutoring. Restaurant food — that's a huge one in Just so the people of British Columbia know on the re- my community. cord, when it comes to the referendum that was brought I have Metrotown mall in my community, and I know. about by an initiative, with 700,000 British Columbians I have gone talking to the owners of those restaurants signing, opposing the HST — rightly so…. When it at Metrotown and certainly in Crystal Mall, and it's comes to that referendum, which we see coming for- hurting them. It's hurting them a lot, and it's hurting ward starting June 24, it's a yes vote that you want. A yes the people who are coming to buy the services, eat the vote means a no to the HST. food, get the haircuts, go to the gym. It's certainly hurt- In case there's confusion there, I would urge everyone ing families. I think families know that, but I don't know to vote as I'm going to vote. That's yes on the referen- what's going to happen. dum, as opposed to Motion 11, which is another attempt Now we have a situation where we have $7 million to obfuscate and confuse things today. I will be voting of our money, of taxpayers' money, being spent to con- no when it comes to Motion 11. If there's any confusion, vince people that a tax that is not good for them…. I hope that helps clear that up for the people of British They should vote in favour of it. A tax that is not good Columbia — those viewers who may be tuned in today, for them — they should support it. I don't know. It's a since there's no hockey game on. pretty one-sided fight.I t's a pretty unfair fight, because The member for Chilliwack, earlier today in the de- not only do we have $7 million of our own money to bate, just a few speakers ago, said that this was a very try to convince us to support this tax, but we also have important vote, a democratic vote in the process. Well, no limit on the amount of money that third parties I agree with him in part. It is a very important vote, can spend. but there's nothing democratic about this process. The Do you not think that the largest corporations in this Referendum Act, as it was brought in…. province, who stand to make millions and millions of This is not a level playing field of a vote. This is dollars from the HST, are going to think that it's a good stacked by the B.C. Liberals against the people of British Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7587

Columbia. Make no mistake. This vote is using taxpay- British Columbia, without any accountability, that the ers' money to convince them in a very one-sided fight. HST will be good for them. It's $7 million of taxpayers' money being allotted, the That certainly is a flawed process. It wouldn't cover it. lion's share, to convince the public, to inundate the pub- I would say the process has been corrupted because it lic with a spin that somehow shifting nearly $2 billion does not allow a level playing field when it comes to the a year onto the backs of British Columbians to benefit vote on the HST. several corporate sectors is a good thing. Now, the HST. Here we are in the meagre session that What's worse is that in any election in any democratic we have this spring, 4½ weeks after ten months of not country in the world you have to have controls in place to sitting in this place. make sure that it's a fair election. So not only what the gov- Since the 2009 election we aren't dealing with people ernment is doing with taxpayers' money to convince them, with disabilities that need help. We're not dealing with on one side, that the HST is good…. They're allowing un- environmental disasters in this province that need to be limited resources to be spent by the very entities that will addressed. We're not dealing with the plight of seniors be the recipient of close to $2 billion a year. or children in care. What we're dealing with is a bad tax So what will they spend? Anything it takes. This is policy that the B.C. Liberals got caught on right after the anything but a democratic process in a democratic 2009 election. jurisdiction. It is the furthest thing from an objective The HST wasn't supposed to happen. If the B.C. election process. Liberals had been straight with the people of British This is about the continuation of changing tax policy Columbia before the 2009 election, they would not have to benefit a few at the expense of British Columbians. It formed government. So they decided to do something has been the cornerstone of the B.C. Liberal policy for ten else, to tell the people of British Columbia that the HST years. Shifting the burden of taxation onto the people of wasn't even on their radar screen. "Don't worry about British Columbia to benefit several corporate sectors is that one. Vote for us." sort of the icing on the cake when it comes to the HST. Unfortunately, the people of British Columbia be- By my calculations…. I'll take one corporate sec- lieved the B.C. Liberals, and the HST was foisted on the tor that I have some experience with over the last few people of British Columbia, much to everyone's surprise, years in this place in dealing with forestry issues. The I suppose. But it shouldn't really be. There was a sudden corporate sector, the forestry sector has had…. I've lost realization in many cases. Other promises came to mind track. It's ten or 11 major and some smaller corporate from previous elections. tax breaks under the B.C. Liberals. Every election that this government has won has had There has always been the assurance from the Liberals, at least a few promises that were designed to be broken. as they're saying with the HST, that the tax breaks for those "We will not sell B.C. Rail." "We will honour negotiated at the very top, the corporate sector, will benefit all of us, contracts." "We'll run a deficit of no more than $495 mil- will trickle down, will lead to investment and jobs. lion, not a penny more." All of these wild fantasies were [2015] not based in truth, and they've allowed a government to However, just taking that one sector, which are ma- continue, election after election. jor recipients of the HST at the expense of the taxpayers This time I think it will be different. Shifting the of British Columbia, with those 11 major tax breaks — burden of between $1½ billion and $2 billion of taxation probably 12 now, with the HST — we have seen record onto the people of British Columbia, who are already closures of mills, tens of thousands of forestry jobs lost faced with huge increases in MSP payments; hydro bills; — the opposite of benefit. ferry rates, if you live on the islands, the coast; user-pay Indeed, what we've seen in the corporate forestry — these types of things…. The same thing with these con- sector is investment, yes. Taxpayers' dollars shifted to sumption taxes like we're talking about today. benefit them, and they've invested in other jurisdictions. They inordinately benefit the wealthy, the corporate They're moving our natural resources, our raw logs in sector, absolutely, but they hurt the middle class, small this case, engineered by this Liberal government, al- businesses, people who need social services, who need lowing them to do so by changes in forest policy. So yes, the help that governments are supposed to provide. jobs created and probably investment and innovation — None of us are far from needing help. Those safeguards in other jurisdictions. are being taken away by this government. They've been There was no quid pro quo. There has never been a stripped, or they've had fees built into them that make quid pro quo for the people of British Columbia. The them out of reach of many British Columbians, those B.C. Liberals sell the farm. So when it comes to the HST, that need it the most. it's just another step in a massive tax shift to benefit cor- [2020] porate friends who are then allowed to spend endless So when we have a change to the HST being discussed amounts of money that they will be receiving from the and debated in this House, the big question for the people people of British Columbia to convince the people of of British Columbia is: what does it mean? 7588 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

The speculation is we're going to come into an elec- several corporate sectors that donate largely to the B.C. tion again. We're being told, after the firm question for Liberals can benefit. Those sectors are allowed to use the referendum has been set, after the date has been endless resources and funds which they now have — up set…. We've been led to believe that there's probably go- to $2 billion a year because of the HST — to convince ing to be another election. We're being told there'll be and sell and do a job on the people of British Columbia changes made some time down the road with the HST. to sell them that this is a good thing. "Only if you vote to keep the HST will we give you these The tax savings for big business were originally, -in changes. We'll pay you $175, if you have a child, if you itially, estimated at $880 million for the construction vote to keep the HST." industry, $140 million for manufacturing, $210 million Now, I've heard of politicians going into bars and buy- for the transportation industry, $140 million for the for- ing rounds of beer for people, saying: "Vote for me." This estry sector, $80 million for the mining and gas and oil. rings true of this type of a tactic: using taxpayers' own Now, none of these sectors are required to produce money to buy a vote after the question was set, changing one job, to invest one dime in the province. the terms of the tax after the question was set. But the changes, except for the potential payoff, the $175 per Interjection. child, are happening sometime in the distant future. Another promise — like “We will honour contracts,” S. Fraser: I would note that the member for Chilliwack like “We will not sell B.C. Rail,” like “We will run a defi- had an opportunity to speak to this issue already, and he cit of only $495 million and not a penny more.” So while was given a certain amount of, I think, leeway by mem- we're debating Motion 11, the question is really about: bers on this side as he spun his interpretation of this to does anyone in this province buy what they're being the people of British Columbia. But I would suggest that told? History shows that promises such as these by the he's going to have a rude awakening when we do go to B.C. Liberals may just be promises before an election but a British Columbia provincial election and he sees that become a different reality after an election. the government fades away just about as quickly as this Now, the only reason that we have the HST in place now tax will with the referendum. is because the public voted for no HST in the last election. You know, when the B.C. Liberals brought in this I do not believe the people of British Columbia are going tax that they said they weren't going to bring in to the to buy what this government is selling them with their people of British Columbia, they did a scramble to try own money, spending their own money to sell them this to justify it, to give some semblance that: "Oh, we did time — one time too many. Time for a change. maybe a study on it that it would be good somehow for These types of tax shifts, like the HST, are incredibly the people of British Columbia." It was going to be a regressive. We also lose so much autonomy in our tax benefit for the people of British Columbia. policy in the province. After the fact, as it became clear from the previous Finance Minister that they did no such study, they paid Interjection. $12,000 for a 12-page study that made some pretty out- rageous predictions about how wonderful this HST S. Fraser: I heard a member opposite saying:"Rubbish." would be — 113,000 jobs. Remember that one? As we But when you combine a tax and give the authority to know now, a more independent study has brought that the federal government — it's a joint tax, no longer con- down to 24,000 jobs over ten years. So as the member trolled directly by the province — you lose your ability from Vancouver-Hastings rightly said just a couple of to effect positive changes in the province. speakers earlier, within the margin of error in job cre- Now, we know that the government isn't interested in ation in the province…. positive changes. We know that they will implement a tax Tens of thousands of forestry jobs have already been here, HST, which actually makes it a disincentive to buy a lost with major corporate tax breaks in this province. hockey helmet for your kid, makes it less economically vi- That's a fact. The mythical 2,500 jobs a year, maybe, is able for a family to put their child into hockey. It makes it not a basis to hang your hat on, especially when the story more expensive to buy a bicycle helmet or a bicycle. not many months ago was that this tax could not be We just had a debate on a cruelty-to-animals bill last changed because it was the best thing, single best thing, week — rightly so. Good debate. Well, part of cruelty to you could do for the economy of British Columbia, and animals in the bill was not providing the needs for sur- now it's: "All those changes can be made." vival. Well, let's tax vet bills, too, if that's not enough. They can cut one or two points sometime in the future The HST taxes a whole bunch of things that this govern- to take $1.6 billion out of the revenues for the province. ment doesn't talk about. So what they're not being straight on with the people of [2025] British Columbia — the B.C. Liberals, that is — is where It shifts between $1½ billion and $2 billion of tax they're going to get that money. What vital public services burden onto the people of British Columbia so that are they going to be cutting to the people that more and Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7589

more cannot afford them because of this government's history. That was proven in the Supreme Court to have tax policies and punitive fees to try to cover for a few cor- been unlawful. So now we must pay at least $70 mil- porate entities that happened to donate to them? lion in reparation and countless legal costs in order to Well, Madam Speaker, the people of British Columbia put that broken promise, that betrayal, right — not that are pretty smart, and the people of British Columbia will we can ever make whole those families that suffered be- support the official opposition in voting against Motion cause of that B.C. Liberal broken promise. 11, seeing it for what it is. A misrepresentation wouldn't Now we have the HST. We have the HST that this come close to describing it. They're also going to support, government told us, the people of B.C., they weren't I would suggest, the same position that the official oppos- considering before the election. ition has with the referendum, and they're going to vote We're here because of two more misleading broken yes. "Yes" means getting rid of the HST. Yes to pre-HST. promises and betrayals by this B.C. Liberal government. Before the May 2009 election we were repeatedly told J. Les: Just means higher taxes. by the Finance Minister…. I don't know how we could count the number of times he used the phrase "$495 mil- S. Fraser: Well, again, this is a member of a govern- lion, not a penny more." That would be the deficit, and ment that has raised our debt levels beyond belief, that he knew it was false. He knew it was false. In fact, the of- has run the single largest deficits in the province of ficial deficit came in four times greater at $1.8 billion. British Columbia, and he's trying to lecture me on tax They needed…. policy. That would be laughable except that as they sit in government, after promising not to bring in an HST, Deputy Speaker: Hon. Member, your reference to an they still control tax policy in this province. So rather individual in this House — you need to withdraw that than being humorous, it is scary. remark. [2030] The people of British Columbia will speak loud and D. Routley: I withdraw that remark. clear with the referendum, and they will not be sold a bill of goods, no matter how much money the corporate Deputy Speaker: Thank you. sector that benefits from this is allowed to spend. With that, I'll take my seat. D. Routley: The Finance Minister misled the people. TheF inance Minister misled the people about the size of D. Routley: Before I start, I'd like to ask the members the deficit, and he knew what the true numbers were. in the House to help me welcome my partner, Leanne We now, after the election, find out through freedom Finlayson, who's just arrived. of information that not only did this government know I'm rising to oppose this motion and express my op- the revenue of the province was in such peril and such position to the HST — not just the fact that the HST is decline, but they also were busy negotiating with Ottawa bad for British Columbia and bad for the people that the terms of an HST agreement, even though they put I represent, but the absolutely despicable way in which in writing to the restaurant industry that they wouldn't the province was misled by their own government. That do this. is something that can't pass. I just introduced my partner, Leanne. She works in a That is something that feeds into a cynicism that is realty company. Those realtors know the cost of theH ST. growing in this province, and people believe there is no They know it in their business. I know it by the number hope for truth in politics because of the examples that of them who have stopped being realtors in the recent this government has set. This motion itself asks us again: past because of the decline in their markets. "Trust us — 1 percent after we're elected, 1 percent more We can often be dismayed by the cynicism that this a year later. Trust us." government has created in the population of British Well, that's a rightfully held cynicism, just as it was Columbia, but we should only, in order to feel better about a rightfully held anger that drove 700,000 British that, look to the inspirational response to this latest be- Columbians to sign a petition for a referendum on this trayal — those 700,000 British Columbians who worked betrayal, the latest B.C. Liberal betrayal. together to sign enough petition papers to bring this gov- They look back, as we consider this motion, at other ernment to account. They didn't tell the population of this betrayals — B.C. Rail. They promised not to sell B.C. province the truth, and now they'll pay for it. Rail. Well, they did. They did and caused the greatest [2035] political scandal in the history of our province. This is This government…. It's like playing monopoly with breaking the confidence and the faith of the people. my seven-year-old stepdaughter, you know. She just The HEU contracts that former Premier Gordon makes up the rules as she needs them. If she's going to Campbell promised not to tear up. He tore them up, and land on the jail square, she says: "You can count twice." it led to the largest mass firing of women in Canadian Now to go from my seven-year-old stepdaughter to 7590 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

Shakespeare, well, Shakespeare said: "Lawless are those that can be borne out by the documents that have been who make their will their law." That's what this govern- released through freedom of information. In fact, this ment does. government knew what they were about to do. They made a law that they wouldn't post deficits and Then finally, the quote that really steals the show — repeatedly had to break their own law. We all have to doesn't it? "We aren't going to be talking about trying trot in here and have the government vote to amend its to reduce it by a point or two before the referendum. I own law to allow it to run the largest deficits in the his- mean, I think people will see that as buying them with tory of the province. their own money." These are the fiscal wizards that theB .C. Liberals have Well, British Columbians aren't prepared to be bought become, running this province off the seat of their pants, with their own money. They know, despite this - gov covering up the true size of a deficit and then having ernment saying, "Oh, we're going to offer you 10, and to take payola from the federal government in order to they're going to offer you 12," that that 10 applies to so transition to the HST to cover up that broken promise many things that they didn't have to pay taxes on before and that misleading set of facts that they offered to the — fix your roof, all sorts of services, haircuts, bicycles. people before the election. There's $8 million to $10 million more for bicycles alone This is fiscal policy made on the back of a napkin. As that will come out of pockets of British Columbians. they need it, they change the rules. Desperate moves, [2040] decisions taken in haste to cover up broken promises British Columbians aren't stupid. This government is and terrible mistakes — that's what we've come to ex- taking them for stupid, but they know every day when pect from our government, and it's terrible. they go the tills and buy their daily purchases — let Well, it comes down to an issue of truthfulness, of be- alone the major purchases they have to make and ma- lievability, of credibility. There are really two streams to jor services they have to pay for — that their HST hurts deciding whether we can take someone's word as cred- British Columbians. ible or believable. One stream is whether or not they Madam Speaker, it's about trust, and once a govern- are being truthful, whether they are misleading us. The ment has lost trust and once it decides that it's lost any other stream is whether they are competent or whether notion of a vision for the province, it begins to operate they are incompetent. Well, in the first stream we have as a hurdler. It gets over one hurdle and then another the HEU contract as evidence, we have the B.C. Rail sale hurdle and then another hurdle. First hurdle: "Oh, this as evidence, and we have the HST as evidence that we massive deficit that we can't share with the people, be- were misled. We were misled. cause we know how close the election is. We'll likely be On the other stream of incompetence we have the defi- defeated. So we'll tell them it's $495 million, not a penny cit projections, the biggest fiscal mistake in the history more. We'll say it a whole bunch of times, and then after of the province. That's what they offered to the people as the election we'll just deal with it." grounds and reason to vote for them before the election, Well, they found a way to deal with it. That was the and now we find out the truth. It's a sad state of affairs next hurdle. when the government must spend $7 million of taxpay- The next hurdle was: "How do we deal with this mas- ers' money to promote this insult to the people, and I use sive four-times-greater-than-expected deficit? Well, the word "insult" because the new Premier used it. we'll take payola from the federal government, and we'll On July 28 on CKNW on her show she said that it's break another promise we made before the election." "an insult to British Columbians for the government to, That's the way this government operates, and it's a sad first of all, have brought in this tax in what most of us state of affairs for a proud province, a province that was regard is a very, very sneaky way and then to refuse to built on much more honest behaviour than what we've bother explaining properly why they did it. They can't seen from this government. even be bothered to mount a defence. And I think that's People know when they're being sold a bill of goods, an insult." and that's what's happening. Now that same person is the Premier and leader of The major companies that benefit from this tax now the party that insulted British Columbians. Apparently have a free field to play on because of another broken it's okay with the Premier that her party has insulted promise. This new Premier of ours promised repeatedly British Columbians, and it's also okay by this Premier to to run a fair referendum. She said it would be on June spend $7 million of taxpayers' money in tilting the bal- 24. Well, it's not on June 24. It takes place over a month, ance in an unfair referendum. and it's mail-in ballots. Drop them off at your local gov- The Premier also said it seemed impossible that the tax ernment office; have a friend pick them up; drop them wasn't contemplated before the spring ballot. She said: "I in the mail, even if there's a postal strike. just don't think that's possible that that could be the case." That is not a provincial election. That wouldn't pass That's what she said on CBC news on August 13, 2009. I muster in a Third World country, yet that's what this agree with her. I absolutely agree with her, and I think Premier calls running a referendum fairly and like an Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7591

election. And $7 million of taxpayers' money to buy their reflecting the recent poll. It's almost split down the mid- votes; it's a disgrace. It's an absolute disgrace. dle, not only on the supposed fix but also on the ballot The referendum was supposed to be run fairly. It was question itself. But everyone shares one thing: the anger supposed to be on June 24. Now the results won't come they continue to heap upon a government that deceived until August, barely a month before the previous refer- them. And it goes further. They are angry because they endum would have taken place, which would have had don't trust the fix either. much more strict controls over spending — another Neither can we trust the alternative, which is some- broken promise, another breaking of the faith of the thing that caught me completely off guard. A few people of British Columbia by a government that has weeks ago a lady and her husband came into my office lost its credibility. and asked: "Does the HST question…? Does the ques- It is fun playing Monopoly with Brookelyn Baird, the tion on the ballot mean that the PST will go back to seven-year-old who makes up her own rules occasionally. the way it was?" And I said, "I'm sure it does. Of course It's fun because there's not too much at stake. But this is it does. Nobody would try and deceive us at this point," different. This government breaks rules for itself when it only to find out a couple of weeks later that she was wants benefit, and there's a lot at stake. We've got major absolutely correct. She looked me in the eye, and she companies now who will make tens of millions of dollars said: "I'll betcha a hundred bucks that it doesn't mean from a shift of $1.9 billion onto average, everydayB ritish that and that we'll have a different PST when this is Columbians. That is what's at stake. finished." And she's right. We can't trust the fix or the Now when this government breaks the rules of their alternative. Monopoly game, what's at stake are the livelihoods of Some people in my riding have said: "We're all over British Columbians — in the restaurant industry, real- 21, we lost the fight, and we may as well get on with the tors, construction, bicycle dealers. So many British HST." It's what we used to call lying back and enjoying it. Columbians stand to lose because of this government's A lot of people have said that they aren't happy with the failure to keep its promises. fix. Not even the 10 percent is enough, because they are We deserve better. This House deserves better. This still angry that the exemptions have not been extended. province deserves much better, and we plan to deliver Yet many others tell me they can't trust the government better to them. We plan to deliver government that cares to stick to its commitment to get to 10 percent. They are about them, is honest with them, confronts real prob- simply fed up with any promises. lems with real solutions and doesn't need to mislead the These are the people I sympathize with, but for a people to be elected. different reason. I believe that it may be impossible Let's inspire them. Let's inflate the people of British for the government to reach 10 percent. I believe that Columbia, not deflate them with broken promises and the financial situation in the province may preclude a failed policy, failed projections, huge deficits, huge reduction in the HST. So are we looking at an impos- debts. It's time for a government that cares about British sible promise? Columbians again — one that would have the courage I want to assure the people of Delta South that this and the strength to clean up the terrible mess that this is not a vote for or against the HST. It is a motion that government has left us, the terrible mess that this gov- attempts to win the favour of the people. It is a motion ernment has created and the terrible loss of faith that that attempts to fix the HST in the eyes of the govern- they have created amongst British Columbians. ment. But if the people of this province do vote for [2045] the HST on June 24, I will at least have participated in For those reasons I'll be standing with all those con- making it more palatable. I can assure my constituents stituents I've talked to who feel so betrayed, who feel that I will continue to support a return to PST exemp- so misled. I'll be standing with them and voting yes to tions, especially those on labour for renovations, on squash this tax. I'll be voting no on this motion because services and on large appliances, for these are the areas it asks us to have faith again in them. The B.C. Liberals where the HST is having a devastating impact on the have no credibility, and we can have no faith in them. middle class. The entire HST fiasco has overshadowed its value to V. Huntington: Well, this is where the government's the economy. Its introduction was chaotic, and its fix, failure to tell the truth, to consult with the people and unfortunately, remains chaotic. All I can say is: better to show them the respect to which they're definitely en- the devil you know than the devil you don't. titled finally leads us. We're at a place where the people feel there are no good outcomes, just less bad ones. H. Bains: It is my pleasure to stand here to speak on I suspect that my attitude towards this motion is, if this very, very important issue that we are discussing in truth be known, shared by many members of this House: this House today before us, Motion 11. I will be standing we are darned if we do and darned if we don't. We're here to speak against this motion, and I will tell you why basically in a no-win situation. For you see, my riding is I speak against this. I have the same reasons as thou- 7592 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

sands of British Columbians have, the same reasons why They went through the referendum initiative, and they they are saying no to HST — first, how it was brought in were successful. Then the promise was made during and how they were misled. their leadership campaign that the referendum would [2050] be moved to June 24 because the business community If B.C. Liberals were upfront with British Columbians be- and the opposition and other people told government fore the 2009 election, we wouldn't be discussing this issue that you need to remove the uncertainty. Because of that here today. Had they gone to the public that they are bring- uncertainty, people are not spending money, and it is ing in the HST, we would have campaigned, both sides, for hurting the economy. or against it. I can almost guarantee you that they would The current Premier promised to move that refer- not be sitting on that side of the House had they been up- endum date to June 24. Well, you know, maybe people front and truthful about their position on the HST. thought we could trust this Premier. Not a day gone by, They, in fact, in writing said to the public that they the Premier then said: "Well, yes, now we are choos- had no intention of bringing in the HST. But merely ing a mail-in referendum, and the ballot will be mailed days had gone by after the 2009 election, and guess what. out starting June 13." The people will have the ballots They did exactly the opposite that they said they would in their hands by June 24, but the results will not be not do. Talk about people not trusting governments and tabulated until August — merely a month before the politicians. Then, we found out that the discussions were original date. Again, another broken promise. How do even taking place before the election about a possibility you trust this Premier? of bringing in the HST here in British Columbia. [2055] In comparison, let's talk about Ontario. They went to Like I said, this is all about trust. How do you trust the public, around the same time, and they told the people this Premier better than the previous Premier, who had of their province that they were bringing in the HST. And to resign over this issue and who tried, really, by spend- this government even used that as an excuse: "Ontario ing a quarter of a million taxpayers' dollars to go on TV went through it; we have to go through it." But they were to tell us how good this tax was for them? He knew that upfront with their public, and this government chose not the people weren't buying it. He had to resign. to. That's why we are discussing this issue today. People thought: "The new Premier is coming, and I agree with many of my colleagues that stood before perhaps things will change." How wrong they were. me here. It's about trust. It's about trust and lack of trust in our government here. They were told one thing be- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] fore the election, so people gave them a mandate based on the information they provided to the public. But When the Premier was a radio talk-show host, she right after the election, they went against their promise, talked about this issue on her shows. This is what she said and they brought in the HST. on July 28, 2010: "It is an insult to British Columbians Then they said it was the single best and most important for the government to, first of all, have brought in this thing they could do to turn the economy around. If that tax in what most of us regard as a very, very sneaky way was the case, let's talk about their competency as money and then refuse to bother explaining why they did it managers and as somehow good to deal with our econ- properly. They can't even be bothered to mount a de- omy. If this was the single most important thing to turn fence, and I think that is an insult." That is not what the the economy around, do you make those decisions just Premier is saying now. overnight? You don't do that. You have a plan for that. Then the Premier went on to say — this is March 21: If this was so important, as they said it was after the "We aren't going to be talking about trying to reduce election, then, they would have had a long discussion, it by a point or two before the referendum. I mean, I and they would have done analysis. They knew that they think people will see that as buying them with their were going to bring it in, and they chose not to tell the own money." public before the election. What do we see here today? Exactly that. This is When they try to do a sell job, why they allegedly were exactly what is happening today. forced to bring HST in to turn the economy around by The issue here is of trust. Before the election this gov- saying that this was the single most important thing to ernment said the maximum deficit was $495 million. The do to turn the economy around, could you believe that? Premier said that, the Finance Minister — not a penny Who would believe this government? more. After the election what was the real number? It's Over 700,000 British Columbians resoundingly said no, $1.8 billion — four times more than what they said not a that they do not trust this government. That's the message penny more than. That, again, is a trust issue. from British Columbians, the message to this government It is all about trust, and if we cannot trust our lead- that they do not like this bad tax. They know that this tax ers, if we cannot trust our government, then no wonder is a tax shift from corporations on to individuals and fam- people are not paying attention to politics. That's why it ilies. As a result, it should be scrapped. is important that we must defeat this bill. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7593

When the referendum is conducted, I will be voting B. Simpson: Just a couple of quick questions — or yes to get rid of that HST so that people will have some one, depending on the Minister's answer. I've been in fairness, and this government will hopefully learn their correspondence with the Ministry of Health with regard lessons — that they need to be upfront with the public, to the use of antipsychotic drugs to treat dementia pa- the very public that actually send us down here. Those tients. One case in particular that I've raised with the are the reasons that I will be voting against this bill, and ministry, the case of Hilda Penner, illustrates some of I will be standing with my constituents to say yes to ex- the issues associated with this. tinguish this bad tax when those referendum ballots are So it's basically three issues. First is the use of anti- mailed and received by us. psychotic drugs for the treatment of dementia. Health I am advised, Mr. Speaker, that the time is running out. Canada and the federal drug administration have both circled that as a use, that isn't appropriate, and I've asked Interjections. for the government to take a look at that. The second is the issue of families that have represen- H. Bains: I could go on another hour, another two tation agreements, and they have health authorities that hours, another three hours, because there's so much supersede those representation agreements by certifying story to tell about the deceit of the last eight years, about their loved one and then getting the freedom to manage the misleading of this government and how they have the care of that loved one under certification. shifted the tax, billions of dollars of tax, from corpora- Then the third is the relationship between the use of tions onto the individuals and families. This is another antipsychotics and staffing levels and whether or not attempt to shift more tax onto the individual and con- the form of chemical restraint that antipsychotics give sumers and families. is a way to offset a potential misalignment of staffing- re Noting the hour, Mr. Speaker, I reserve my right to con- sources in some of these care facilities. tinue tomorrow, and I move adjournment of the debate. In response to my question to the minister's office by letter — it was actually to the minister's predeces- H. Bains moved adjournment of debate. sor — I just recently received a notice that a review has been initiated and a steering committee established. My Motion approved. question to the minister is whether or not the terms of reference for that review, the membership of that review Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported and the time frame for that review could be tabled in the resolution and progress, was granted leave to sit again. House, with full public disclosure. Hon. P. Bell moved adjournment of the House. Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for the ques- tion and his earlier correspondence and interest. In fact, Motion approved. I'm assured that since the initial work was undertaken Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 at the end of January or in February, a committee has a.m. tomorrow morning. been set and is operational. There are terms of reference. I don't have them at my fingertips, but I can make them The House adjourned at 9 p.m. available to the member.

B. Simpson: I do appreciate the minister's staff get- PROCEEDINGS IN THE ting in touch with us. Part of the reason for this is that, DOUGLAS FIR ROOM as the minister knows, there are many families who have been in this circumstance. The letter thatI got back indi- Committee of Supply cated that there's a desire to meet with Hilda Penner's daughters, in particular, to go through this with them. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH But the request from them and other families involved is (continued) that if they don't know the terms with which the inquiry or the review is operating, they're not sure whether they The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); D. can engage them in a fulsome way. Horne in the chair. They would like to know what those terms are so that then they can make sure that they give them adequate The committee met at 2:40 p.m. information. So I would appreciate it if the minister could either table those or direct them to my office. I'll On Vote 32: ministry operations, $15,566,169,000 forward them on to the families involved. (continued). [1445] 7594 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

Hon. M. de Jong: Can I also say this, having been Then he went back to Cowichan Lodge because his given the opportunity? One of the fundamental tenets leg deteriorated. He had recovered again the following of the delivery of care that we and care providers try to spring and went back to the farm, only to deteriorate. operate around is the notion that patients — first of all, At that point Cowichan Lodge had been closed, and the patients, and if not patients because of some disability, hospital sent him…. He went into the pod and then was then their families — understand the risks and benefits sent to Sunridge Place. There was no option to…. He of any medication so that there is an informed consent lost the lottery. That's the way I would put it. to the use of that. Did you know, Minister, that there's a health care lot- There are all sorts of intervening circumstances that tery for seniors, certainly in the Cowichan Valley? If may complicate that, and the member is acutely aware you win the day, you get sent to a place like Cerwydden, of what some of those are, but it's ensuring that there where I am told that…. If George was at Cerwydden, his are procedures and processes in place that ensure that care would be fully provided for, and that's the case in to the greatest extent possible, the patient is provided an many other public facilities. informed consent to the use of medication — and if not [1450] the patient, then the patient's family. Unfortunately, he didn't win the lottery. He ended up in The other issue that the member raised relating to Sunridge Place, and he's being gouged for…. It's now well staff and the use of drugs…. The antipsychotic drugs over $10,000 that that has happened in the last year and a are not a substitute for care — nor should they be used, half or more that this has been going on. I find it completely nor are they intended to be used…. They are sometimes unacceptable — not only the drugs but the food. a requirement to protect the patient from themselves, I'm told that families…. One of the ways that these sometimes a requirement to protect the caregivers from for-profit facilities are gouging our seniors in British the patient, but they are not a substitute, nor are they in- Columbia is that there are three ways for them to make tended to act as a substitute, for the provision of care by money once they sign the deal. There are three ways: human beings. I'll endeavour to get the material to the food — they can cut back on food; the pharmacy, where member that he has requested. they can gouge you; and then they can cut back on staff. It's my understanding that all three have happened there B. Routley: To the minister and his staff, thank you at Sunridge Place. for the opportunity to enter into this debate. There've been cutbacks. I've had staff in my office I have in the Cowichan Valley a senior. His name is in tears, Minister, about what's been happening to the George Morgan. I've been dealing with George's family staffing levels. I've seen what's happened. Right on your over the issue. He's a 79-year-old senior who in his website there's a report about Sunridge Place, and it's younger days was a surveyor in the interior of British publicly made available about the problems with food. I Columbia when he had a car accident, and since that would request that the minister have a look at that. car accident he's had a leg wound that required on- When people are starting to chisel away at the kind of going care. Currently this senior and his family feel that quality food that seniors should rely on, in my opinion, it they're being gouged and their finances are being bled bears a full investigation into this kind of gouging and the away. George and his family feel that way. practices that are going on that I'm sure most of us would This is happening at the for-profit senior care facility not want our family members to be forced to go through. in the Cowichan Valley called Sunridge Place, which Obviously, the issue that I see, the question that I have has an in-house pharmacy — one of the new models for the minister is: does the minister think it's accept- that have the in-house pharmacy. It's a requirement, able to allow vulnerable seniors to be taken advantage of apparently, that the family has to use the in-house as they are at these P3 facilities? pharmacy. The family has checked out cheaper alterna- tives. They could buy the bandages and the ointment Hon. M. de Jong: I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage, that he requires much cheaper. He's forced, under not having all of the facts of the individual case at my the rules, to purchase through the Sunridge Place in- fingertips. I'm wondering if the member can advise the house pharmacy, and he's essentially a captive there, committee whether his constituent has registered these one of many seniors that are captive of the in-house concerns with the patient care quality review board. pharmacy rules. George Morgan has now been faced with paying B. Routley: I'm not aware of whether they have or thousands of dollars for wound care that was once fully have not contacted other authorities. I know they have covered when he was at Cowichan Lodge. George spent been contacting my office about a variety of issues, not at least two years — two winters, I'm told by the family the least of which is the social care worker that's hired by — in Cowichan Lodge. His wounds were tended, and he the lodge. You would think that with a name like "social actually returned to health enough that he was able to go care worker," they would be there to look after the inter- back to the farm the first summer. est of the seniors there at the lodge. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7595

Apparently, instead what's been happening…. What If they were in a facility over on the Mainland, they I'm told is that…. And I'm going to provide for the min- wouldn't pay. If this is true, it's totally unacceptable. ister a full chronology of events that has been put in front of me by the family. If you insist that we follow the Hon. M. de Jong: I am saddened to learn of the chal- other procedure, we'll happily do that as well. lenges that Mr. Morgan, his constituent, has encountered, This is alarming when you hear that a social worker particularly since the accident that has wrought such would go to his neighbour. George sometimes has to go pain and discomfort upon him, particularly his leg. to the hospital in Victoria to have his leg looked at. It I am, however, obliged to remind the member that, in weeps in a major way. We're talking, like, cups full of what I'm sure is his genuine desire to assist his constitu- fluid sometime comes out of this leg. George was being, ent and the family in addressing what are apparently in my opinion, gouged $350 for a trip to Victoria and some very unsatisfactory circumstances, it is perhaps back that the lodge was charging. less than useful to wrap the argument in ideology. Well, George's neighbour was providing that service for Private organizations have been involved in the delivery him for free. Why? Because part of the deal he had with of seniors care in this province for decades. George is: you get to hay my field or have at the small The hon. member has asked, essentially, for my reac- modest family farm that they have, and in return, George's tion to what is taking place. In part, it is to suggest to friend would give him rides to the hospital in Victoria. the member that it is precisely to provide patients, resi- Can you imagine, Minister, the frustration of the dents and their families with an outlet to address these family? They learn that George is being told by the so- matters that the patient care quality review board was cial worker, first of all, that he should sell his farm to established. pay for bandages; and second of all, that he's telling the Whilst I appreciate that the member has come to neighbour: "You should be charging some money. You this forum and raised the issue, I am surprised that shouldn't be doing this trip for free. You should be char- in the course of his interaction with the constituent — ging some money." which appears to have been extensive — and with the [1455] constituent's family, he has apparently not provided I mean, I just shudder when I see these details that them with what I thought would be the very first bit I'm sure I will share with you and I hope that you'll look of advice an MLA would provide to people encoun- into. But I'm alarmed at what's going on at this facility. tering these circumstances. That is advice around the The family felt powerless to deal with a situation where very body that has been established to examine and they're being gouged for thousands of dollars, dealing investigate precisely the kind of allegations that he has with the bills on an ongoing basis. brought here. Because they live over on the Mainland, the family would [1500] like to move him out of the facility. And the social worker has the audacity to tell his sister, has the audacity to tell her [N. Letnick in the chair.] over the phone…. This is what this lady tells me. She said to her: "I can get George to do whatever I want." Now, if the member decides to forward informa- Wait a minute. Put on the brakes. In the province of tion to me in my office, I can assure him that that is British Columbia we've got seniors being abused, right the course of action that I will take. There is actually a there in the Cowichan Valley? If half of this stuff is true, body whose mandate it is, and which is charged on a there ought to be a full investigation. In my opinion, full-time basis, to ensure that patients, residents, sen- they're very serious issues indeed, and I do intend to make iors receive the kind of dignified care to which they sure that the minister is fully apprised of all of these mat- are entitled. ters. They've recently been forwarded on to me to have a Unless I have mistakenly interpreted what the mem- full review of the material that they've laid out. ber has provided to me today, it seems that to this point My question to the minister at the end of the day is: is he, at least, has not provided the family with informa- this the outcome of the B.C. Liberal privatization model tion around the patient care quality review board. If that — that we have B.C. seniors being gouged and their life is so, then I am happy to do so on the strength of the savings being bled away to pay for what are basic med- material that the member will provide to me. ical care services in other facilities? By the way, I phoned health care workers that tell B. Routley: I find it interesting that the minister me that on Vancouver Island, VIHA seems to have this would try to play politics and try to turn this around and policy, and it's hit-and-miss. They discriminate against somehow make this about the MLA. I think that's abso- seniors in some of these P3 models, because they get lutely just shameful. You should be ashamed of yourself gouged for their bandages. Other facilities don't get for trying to attack… gouged. The family tells me that they looked into it over on the Mainland, and there are no charges whatsoever. The Chair:Member. 7596 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

B. Routley: …a fellow MLA. B. Routley: …things in the province of British Well, I was attacked — come on — with nonsense Columbia — through the Chair. that is…. Clearly, this minister knows that this kind of serious stuff that has been brought to my attention…. Hon. M. de Jong: I'm sorry that the hon. member I'm going to bring to the minister directly something took such umbrage with my comments, which were not as serious as this, as these allegations. Something that's in any way meant to impugn him. pressing right on my desk today, right now, is going to He'll also note, I hope, when he has time to review be something that I'm definitely going to bring to the the exchange that has taken place here, that at no point minister. did I try to diminish the seriousness of the information If you want to put it off for another rainy day, that or the circumstances that he has related to the commit- doesn't surprise me. That's the approach of this govern- tee. Far from it. ment — to put it off and find some body to tinker while [1505] the place is really on fire with problems. But it is to ensure that there are avenues available for The issue about the ideology — I want to touch on those others who, as the member suggests, may find that. There is a difference. I actually had a senior that themselves or have families who believe their loved ones was under my care. I had power of attorney for someone are in circumstances that are not satisfactory, that we es- that chose to go into one of the expensive care facili- tablished a mechanism by which those complaints and ties, and I am totally aware that seniors can do that. those issues could be addressed. That's one of the many choices available to seniors — to I'll say this, as well, to the member. I think that we are choose. If they have the wherewithal, if they have the fi- in the fourth day now of these estimates. Perhaps when nances, if they want to go into a privately funded facility, the member's participation is complete — it may be now, they can do that. or it may be later — he will consult with his colleagues That isn't what George did. What happened in the and ask them whether or not during the course of these Cowichan Valley that's a tragedy is that we had a won- estimates I have tried to be as forthcoming as possible in derful facility called Cowichan Lodge that was fully addressing the issues that have been raised, tried to pro- supported, as this minister well knows, by the com- vide as much information as I possibly could and taken munity in the Cowichan Valley. There were all kinds of seriously all of the information that members bring to protests about the action of the government in closing this committee. that, and we think it was done to fill the beds at the pri- That's something he should probably take up with his vate care facility. That's why it was done. colleagues, and if at the end of the day he wishes to come We were originally told: "Oh no, we need more care to the same conclusion that he did a few moments ago, for seniors in the Cowichan Valley, so the Cowichan then that is for him to decide. Lodge won't be threatened in any way." Then they come in and close the Cowichan Lodge, and essentially, a lot M. Sather: I have a question for the minister. A family of those folks that were in Cowichan Lodge ended up of seniors — a senior family, I guess — have come to my filling the beds at Sunridge Place. office asking a rather particular question. The husband This is about a senior that spent two years atC owichan is in a care home in Maple Ridge and, of course, there's Lodge, and he'd be back, happily, at Cowichan Lodge if the 80 percent income requirement to be paid. it weren't for the decisions of this government. My point So they've undergone — his wife, who is still at home is that George is just the tip of the iceberg. — income-splitting with their…. I don't know if she did There are all kinds of seniors that are finding them- it on her own or with assistance from professional help. selves being gouged and their food cut back on — you've She did that, and she wasn't able to get, didn't receive, seen the reports — and their in-house pharmacy pick- the information she needed to do that until about March, ing their pockets. When the cart goes by for a chocolate as I understand it. So by the time she then reapplied to bar or a pop, it's, like, ten bucks, the family tells me. the facility for a new rate, she was granted the new rate Ten bucks for a couple of items. They say: "Don't worry but only effective as of April 1. about it, George. We'll just put it on the bill." Meanwhile, This only applies until the end of the year, she the bills are mounting up to the point where they want tells me, at which time she will have to go through to take his farm away. the process again. Essentially, she's losing the three It's totally unacceptable what's happening, so I want months; that's what she's concerned about. So January, to know whether you think they…. What action has February and March she's not getting the benefit of the patient care quality review board done? Now, you the reduced rate. referenced them. You tell me what they've done to Apparently, they will probably do this financial ex- fix… ercise again — splitting their income — next year, as I understand it. So she's concerned that she's not getting The Chair: Through the Chair, please. the full 12 months' benefit, only nine of the 12 months, Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7597

and she's concerned that this is going to happen again Hon. M. de Jong: I apologize to the member. What because of the delay and the natural time it takes to get I'm trying to do is get the numbers for residential care your T4s or whatever the case may be. — a comparator over the last five years for where the I guess my question to the minister would be: is it per- growth is and some indication of what the availability missible for facilities to hold back, in that sense, those will be, going out. I haven't been able to find it on the three months of the reduced rate such that she doesn't, spur of the moment here, but I will endeavour to get that on an ongoing basis, get the full 12 months' benefit? information for the member. [1510] I will say this. I will not quarrel with her proposition that between now and the opening of two new acute Hon. M. de Jong: To the hon. member. He will know, care hospital facilities, there aren't going to continue to I think, that we had a pretty extensive discussion with be pressures. There is no question that there are going his colleague from Kootenay West about some of the to continue to be pressures. I would also agree with the challenges that people are facing. I'm obliged to him for proposition that managing that pressure is, in part, tied highlighting another circumstance. to the range of options that are available for seniors — The provision for income-splitting is designed, of being in a hospital versus other care options that might course, to ensure that we are in a position where the be available. entitlement or the subsidy is being calculated in a way I am hesitant, knowing the time, to fill that time with that is fair and not prejudicing a spouse or a partner dead air. If I can get some of that information for the who remains behind in a home. There is a require- member, I'll be happy to pass it along. ment, I am reminded, that people reapply on an annual basis. That is certainly the case. There is no intention to C. Trevena: Thank you. I appreciate that, Minister. penalize people who apply or file in a timely way so that Looking historically over the last five years we have had they would lose, in the circumstance that the member facilities built in Campbell River. We do have two new has described, that three months associated with the facilities. We’ve had another one close. Sunshine Lodge income-splitting. closed. We've got New Horizons and Ironwood Place. Both I am also told this. I don't profess to be an expert, neces- are new ones. The assisted-living one is long-term care. sarily, and I'm not sure this is even applicable in the specific So we have facilities in place, but they're full. They're example the member has highlighted. But there is a bit of a full; the hospital is full. We're getting back to the stage tension, we have discovered, between the desire to income we were in about five years ago, with seniors having to split for one purpose — that is, the calculation of applic- leave the community. That's the issue that people are able care rates — and not income split for other reasons, really facing. perhaps income tax–related reasons, or vice versa. The member may recall from the conversation we had Hon. M. de Jong: The other bit of information that with his colleague, the member for Kootenay West, that has already come to my attention is that between 40 it is precisely those questions that we are pursuing in and 50 transitional beds are in the process of being the review that is being undertaken now around this planned and ultimately constructed, out of recogni- whole question of income-splitting for the purpose of tion of the very fact that the member has alerted the rate calculation. committee to.

C. Trevena: I have a couple of questions for the min- S. Fraser: Hello to the minister and staff, and thanks ister. It may just be one. for this session. I have many issues to deal with, but I When I was talking to him the other day…. It was have to narrow it down to one because we have such about the new hospitals for Campbell River and Comox. limited time this session with estimates. One of the issues that we have in Campbell River — and, So the issue is called Returning the Favour Care I think, for the whole north Island but particularly in Home. It's an intermediate care home, an assisted-living Campbell River — is the lack of space for seniors care. complex in Port Alberni. I make a point of trying to visit We have at the moment in our present hospital…. It's as many of the facilities as possible in my constituency. very sad. Often seniors are in the maternity wing.I think I'm sure the minister does the same. the minister can see the inappropriateness of that. I'm very, very impressed with the level of improve- It's estimated that we're 30 percent short in the city ment. The new owner had taken over about two years on seniors care, and we're going to be waiting about five ago, and a 100 percent improvement. You can tell when years, at least, until the hospital is complete. So I wonder you walk in. It's a small facility. It's seven rooms. You if the minister can give any advice or any hope to the can feel from the people, the residents in there, that it's community about what we're going to do in that inter- a family atmosphere. I've talked to, certainly, the resi- vening time until we get the new hospital? dents and their families, and they just rave about the [1515] outcomes for their loved ones when they're in there. The 7598 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

people that are in there say the same thing. You can see pening is that the operator is a strong advocate on behalf it and feel it when you go in there. of their residents. If they feel that…. Certainly, there've What's happening, I believe, is an injustice here. I've been instances where there have been medication prob- met with VIHA already on this. They've made assur- lems, as delivered by home and community care. When ances, but nothing has happened. So I'm asking the the resident has not been up to the task of advocating minister if he could look into it. I have a lot of details, for themselves, they've got a strong verbal support from which I have no time for, but I have so many letters from their residence. past residents, families and such, and current residents The supposition is that this is punitive. Do you know and families, supporting the work that's done there. It what? I would have doubted that initially, but after hear- appears that referrals have stopped coming from VIHA ing from so many residents, the same sort of stories over — all referrals. We're talking about lineups for up to a year and over again, I'm believing it's true. to find such a facility. VIHA is no longer recommending or even mentioning, citing, that this place exists. Hon. M. de Jong: To the member: he has performed [1520] an admirable service by drawing the matter to my atten- Returning the Care is one of the best, if not the best, tion. I'm not in a position…. At the moment, I'm advised, such facility I've ever seen, as far as the quality of care there is no contractual relationship between the care fa- that is delivered and the obvious outcomes of those resi- cility and the authority. I don't know if that means that dents that are there and their families that are there too. there was and there no longer is. Those are all questions In the West Coast General we have so many people that we'll have to ascertain, and I know that the member that are taking up space there. I checked just a couple will make himself available if we require further infor- of weeks ago. There were three hospital beds taken up mation from him. by seniors waiting for placement in a care facility. At [1525] any time there have been up to one-third of the med- I will say this. I'm gratified to learn that the mem- ical surgical beds filled with seniors awaiting placement. ber has, in his constituency, a care facility that falls into I've been told by the professionals at West Coast General the category of private, that he is prepared to stand and that that's not going to change. speak on behalf of in such glowing terms. I say that not Yet we have this fine facility that the owner has in- to be mischievous or meddlesome, but we had an ex- vested in, in good faith. VIHA admitted that the contract change a few moments ago with one of the member's is flawed. There's no other contract of any care facility colleagues which suggested that that was never possible, like it, I don't believe — certainly not in my constituency whatever the case. but, I don't believe, in the province. They're not filling I think the lesson is that private or public, the success the beds. They're not recommending the beds. I'm hear- and the quality of care that people receive are ultimately ing that from a number of people that have written to dependent on the individuals who deliver that care and me, independent of the…. Certainly, this is not just the the level of commitment that exists on the part of either operator talking here. the ownership or the management. I'm grateful to the So I guess what I'm looking for is some assistance member for bringing this matter to my attention. We'll from the minister, if he can assist me in looking into endeavour to find out what the circumstances are and to this a little bit further. We need this facility and such relay that information to him as best we can, as quickly facilities in the Alberni Valley. It's a disservice not just as we can. to the owner and operator — how this is being handled through VIHA and through home and community care. S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. This is a It's also a disservice to those people that are waiting for private facility, and the owner has done a great job of such a facility and are not getting access — not even a improving this facility and providing the care that you mention that this place exists. So please help. don't always see. Certainly, this is not a large-scale cor- porate model. It's not warehousing seniors. This is a Hon. M. de Jong: I'm going to make some inquiries homelike setting. I applaud that model, whether it's pri- right now and will, in a moment perhaps, have some vate or whether it's a non-profit. That being said,I thank additional information — or not. But I'm going to ask the minister for this. the member a fairly direct question. Is he aware of any I ask him…. I have lots of information that I can pro- additional information about why the situation has de- vide for him, should his staff require it, and I'll have veloped? It may just be theories, but if he's got a suspicion an open door policy on this one. Currently there are about what has given rise to, obviously, some changed beds that are available there. As long as they're not be- circumstances, I'm also interested to hear that now. ing filled, it actually hamstrings the quality of service, I think, because there are field trips and such provided S. Fraser: Yes, certainly, I've heard from residents and that are certainly the desire of the owner and operator their families that they believe the reason that this is hap- to do and that they have in the past done. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7599

The contract that does not exist…. I mean, there is The agreement is up in 2014. We've been through a a contract outstanding, but it is a flawed contract, and series of minority parliaments whereby the ability to VIHA has already said that it is. It's month to month at cancel or not to renew the agreement, I think, has been best. There is no way to make any permanent decisions. constrained. That has changed. It's very, very difficult to run an operation like that, as My question to the minister is: what steps has the the minister can, I'm sure, well appreciate. ministry been taking, has the government been taking, On that, I will thank the minister and thank his staff. in terms of ensuring that the renewal of the agreement is very much on the front burner of the government's M. Farnworth: My question — or my comment and agenda and ensuring that we can have a health trans- question — is to the minister. We spend about $15½ fer or health accord that continues into the future with billion on health care in B.C. How much of that figure terms that are favourable to the provinces when this one comes from transfers from the federal government? expires in 2014? [1530] [1535]

Hon. M. de Jong: To keep the member informed, I'm Hon. M. de Jong: It is very much on the front burner, reliably informed that the funding is transferred from as the member might expect, not just for the Ministry of the federal government to the consolidated revenue Health but for the Finance Ministry as well. I have the ad- fund here, but it is earmarked as transfers pursuant vantage of being able to rely for advice on the services of to the health accord. I'm just endeavouring to get the a deputy who is uniquely placed to speak of the Finance actual figure that is transferred into the consolidated Ministry's former preoccupation with this issue and can revenue fund. advise the member that a lot of work has been done pre- In the fiscal plan for '11-12 the appropriate line item paring for the discussions and the negotiations that will is found on page 88, "Contributions from the federal follow within the Council of the Federation. government," and it lists health and social transfers as Much of that, I think, is going to focus on alerting $5.398 billion. I believe the health component of that is the federal government to where the cost pressures are. in the neighbourhood of $3.2 billion, and we're just try- This is a theme that has come up, I think, repeatedly ing to verify that figure. during the course of these discussions: how as a na- tion we should try to coordinate ourselves better to M. Farnworth: We were right. address some of those cost pressures insofar as they I asked the question factually but also rhetorically, in confront us. the sense that it's a lot of money that we get from the fed- Here is an aspect to this that I, actually, in my capacity eral government to go to our health care system, and it's as the minister, presently intend to raise, beginning with been increasing at the rate of 6 percent a year under the the initial meetings that I hope and believe will begin in health accord. On $5 billion, 6 percent is $300 million, a few weeks with federal counterparts, and that is that with the bulk of that coming to fund health care in the we take pride, in British Columbia, in some of the health province of British Columbia. outcomes. Our rate of smoking is at 15 percent. If we When the agreement expires, if that was either capped could take it to 12 or 10, think of all the savings that at the present level or the agreement was eliminated would accrue. and the transfer payments were cut back or elimin- But insofar as there is a national component to this, ated, that would have a significant impact on health it is, I think, appropriate for British Columbia to not care funding in the province of British Columbia. Is just tout our successes but challenge other provinces, that not correct? because when they lag behind, the very issue that the member has raised is impacted. The costs associated Hon. M. de Jong: If I understand what I think is the with treating cancer patients in a province where the basic proposition that the member is advancing, which smoking rate is 20 percent impacts on the discussion is any move to alter, reduce, the growth of the federal that the member is referring to, and I think it is appro- transfer payments as provided by the existing accord, priate for us as a leader within the country to say to our then yeah, that will create pressure. colleagues elsewhere, "You've got to do better," because we are not intent upon financing, as it were, the costs of M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for clarifying the lagging behind. obvious. I don't mean that in a smart-alecky kind of way, That's an aspect to the discussion that I actually in- because we've seen it happen before in this province and tend to try to bring to the table when we engage, and other provinces during the '90s, when the federal gov- as I mentioned a moment ago…. I should say this: that ernment did cut back on transfer payments for health engagement has not yet occurred at the ministerial level and social services to the provinces. It had a significant with the new majority government in Ottawa, but I am impact on the provincial ability to deliver health care. hoping to change that in a matter of weeks. 7600 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

M. Farnworth: I take that these discussions have not question? I think the short answer is: we feel pretty yet been engaged at the ministerial level, but in terms of strongly about this. We feel strongly about the fact that the bureaucratic and the deputy level, at what stage are as our health outcomes continue to lead the rest of the they? Are they well enough along that we are starting to country, what we don't want to see, in the way that the see what a post-2014 agreement would look like, what member has described, is a discussion emerge, a for- its priority is to be, or…? Where are we? mula changed in a way that penalizes British Columbia [1540] for doing better. Creating some benchmarks, creating some incentive Hon. M. de Jong: I can inform him and the commit- to change is the route we'd prefer to go. That's all very tee that at the deputy level, discussions have been taking general language. But what are driving cost increases? place for the better part of a year. I don't want to over- We pick on the one that we most readily identify with: state, though, at what stage we're at and suggest that smoking. Well, what are you doing to reduce the inci- there is a draft agreement that is being reviewed at the dence of smoking in your province? And don't penalize senior and political levels. We're not there yet. the jurisdiction whose people are actually taking the lar- As a heads-up to the member and the committee, I have gest steps to address that. received enough information about this to know that there That's going to factor into the discussions that will take is interest being paid to the formula by which transfers are place. Who is prompting the discussion around changes calculated. Generally, when we are talking about changes in formulas? Well, this much, I'm sure, has not changed to formulas, that involves winners and losers. So a lot of through the years: federal governments will always look attention is being paid, on the part of British Columbia, for a more simplified calculation, and they will always to proposals that may arise, and we will develop and be look for whatever mechanism can be developed that advancing some of our own around how those formulas limits their exposure to cost increases. I guess we do that should operate in calculating what the transfers will be. as provincial governments as well. It's still premature to say it is a contest between for- Having seen that door open up, then, each province mula A and formula B, but my guess is that there are will advocate for changes that they see as either protecting going to be some specific and pointed conversations at their entitlement or growing their entitlement. We will the senior level about the formula by which transfers are want to be very vigilant about ensuring that a formula is calculated. arrived at that is fair, that is equitable and, as I said a mo- ment ago, does not penalize British Columbia for taking M. Farnworth: Just a couple of quick questions on steps to invest, for example, in preventative health care, this topic, then move on to the next one. The minister is because over the longer term the prevention of chronic right. Changes in formulas or speculation about changes disease is going to be the only way I think we actually get in formulas always involve winners and losers, and they a handle on controlling some of these costs. need to be paid close attention to. My question is: this speculation or change — is it be- M. Farnworth: I appreciate the minister's remarks. ing driven at the provincial level, or is it being driven One of the things I always find — and I know just from from the federal level? my own experience, my time as minister previously — is The second question I have is…. Whenever an agree- that there's often a significant debate around the issue of ment is up for renewal, there's always an opportunity benchmarks, around the issue of priorities and a sense to seek potential improvements or changes that British of: "Okay, Ottawa, just give us the money, and we'll make Columbia would like to see. Are we pursuing any par- our own determination as to how we spend it." ticular changes, and if so, what are they? That's great from one aspect of the provincial per- Then the third point.I take the minister's point, and I spective, but one of the challenges of that is that it think it's a very valid one, in terms of: if we are making doesn't necessarily meet what the minister is talking investments that are improving health outcomes but af- about, which is: "You know what? There are long-term fecting the long-term ability to control some health care chronic health issues which really need to be addressed, costs by lifestyle changes — and smoking is, I think, one not just by an individual provincial strategy but by a co- of the key ones around that — are we getting…? What ordinated national strategy that says this is going to be kind of leadership role is the province prepared to take a focus because the results over the long term will pay vis-à-vis other provinces with regards to that? dividends right across the country, and that is a desir- [1545] able outcome." I think one of the things that I would like to see this Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for raising province do is to sort of advance that there is a na- the issue. I think it's an important one. tional role in areas of health care that we should not be I'll try to deal with this a little bit in reverse order. too quick to surrender. We have seen that in the past How strongly are we prepared to advocate on this and from various provinces. I think that's one of the Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7601

areas around changing in a transfer fund or around a which I'm not in a position to validate or suggest to new health accord that I would be particularly con- the member is accurate, of $300 million for all types cerned about. of fraud. One of the areas…. I know that we're starting to run I think the point that I'd also like to make in answering short in terms of our time available for us in this es- this initial question — and I accept responsibility for timates process. When it comes right down to it, it is this, for whatever reason, and I suspect I have added to about money — about the money to provide services, this in terms of how I have answered some of the ques- the money to deliver services and where that money tions — the rationale for the change of the CareCard comes from. Health transfers, health care premiums, and the expenditure of what are, admittedly, significant general taxes, general revenue are all sources of funding sums of money over the next five years is motivated by for health care. Once we get that revenue, the question more than just the desire to address fraud. is: how is it managed within the system? [1555] [1550] We are convinced we have an opportunity here to cre- I asked the minister a question in the House the other ate an instrument, a tool that actually will provide for day around CareCards and fraud, and I'd like to just better health care services and not just a reduction in explore that in a little more detail at this time. What I the amount of fraud, although that is an important com- would like to know is…. The minister has made an an- ponent of it. nouncement of $10 million and then $28 million over So a smart card with a photograph, as most prov- a five-year period for the implementation of the new inces now have. Added to that a chip that would allow CareCard system. That's $150 million. an emergency room physician, at the time an accident My question is much the same as what I asked him in victim is brought into the emergency room, to take that the House and that is: what studies have been done by card and reliably access health care records for that indi- the ministry in terms of trying to quantify the amount vidual has a distinct therapeutic patient-centred benefit of fraud that exists within our health care system and that we think represents a huge benefit for the people the way in which it is apportioned, whether it's billing and the families we're trying to serve. fraud or whether it's people using fraudulent CareCards? To the extent that the focus in the public discussion of What work has been done in that area, and what infor- this has been on fraud, it's because, in part, that's one of mation has the ministry been able to gather? the components to this that I have spoken about and the member has asked questions about. I hope that during Hon. M. de Jong: I'll take a few moments to try and the course of the discussion we have around this today set the stage for the other conversation that will follow the member will accept, and I will have an opportunity and begin by acknowledging what may be the obvious, to discuss in further detail, some of the additional bene- and that is quantifying in absolute terms the amount of fits and additional considerations that have gone into fraud that is taking place is difficult, given the nature of the ministry, the government and me making the deci- the activity that we're trying to analyze. sion to proceed with this. What we can do, and what has occurred in the past, is The member will get no quarrel from me.T o implement a breakdown of the types of fraud that occur. I think it's this, in addition to the $10 million in capital funding that fair to say that, insofar as a portion of what has motivated I spoke of, there is an implementation cost that stretches the change with the CareCards is fraud-related, it is fraud in excess of, over five years, over $125 million. that is perpetrated by those, for example, non-residents that might try to access the system or residents who are M. Farnworth: I appreciate the minister's answer, not entitled to the service because they have not gained and I look forward to hearing the other aspects of the entry into the country or the jurisdiction lawfully. CareCard that the minister is talking about. There are other kinds of fraud. There are frauds I want to ask a couple more questions on this particu- perpetrated by practitioners who bill for services that lar area before he addresses that area, and that is that the they have not necessarily provided. Whilst that is an minister has made this announcement. The previous element of fraud, it's not something that we necessar- Health Minister, back in 2004, said they were looking ily always capture. Have there been studies? There have. at a new type of card dealing with the issue of fraud. Admittedly, they have revealed amounts that are meas- My question is that you're going back…. Over the last ured in the two and three millions of dollars, as opposed seven years there has been some work. The minister has to the 200 and 300 millions of dollars. mentioned that there have been some studies, and they One of the investigation units in '10-11 looked at differ. We're talking $2 million or $3 million this year. 326 cases and identified potential recoveries of about Last year I think the figure was about $936,000 based $2 million. To extrapolate from that, as other agencies on 399 cases that were investigated, 370 or a 94 percent have done…. The Canadian Health Care Anti-fraud rate where there was something amiss that was, I think, Association comes up with a fairly significant figure, recovered by the ministry. 7602 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

There have been studies, or there's been work done. cial institutions do with their bank cards, there is a belief Would the minister make those studies available to the that not only can you employ that technology in a way opposition? that provides better health care services. The day is not [1600] far off when this can provide the means by which a cit- izen communicates with the state around a broad range Hon. M. de Jong: Maybe the first thingI should do…. of services that extend beyond health care. Again, I will not do this in any sort of an argumenta- One of the great discussions we had around this in- tive way. itiative is what to call it. If someone gets a card that I have seen material, as the member might expect, given combines the driver's licence…. If they choose to do the conversation that's taken place over the last week or that, as I will, to get one more piece of plastic out of my two. The discussion around this actually dates back to the wallet…. If they choose to get a driver's licence that is member's predecessor, I think, in '94 or '95 where the de- combined with the CareCard, what to call that? In fact, cisions were made to make some changes. what we may be looking at is a services card… I read, as again the member might expect, some Hansard exchanges in, I suppose, this forum for '94-95. Interjection. It may have been Minister Ramsey or Charbonneau — I can't recall which — who spoke of taking this next step Hon. M. de Jong: That's right. and the development of a new card that better protected …that extends beyond just health care. Having said the identity of citizens and patients and better facilitated that, the statutory framework that would allow for that the flow of information between the state and individ- to happen is not in place, and the statute that is before the uals. That work, which the member correctly refers to, House does not address all of those factors as well. has been going on for some time. [1605] There is a business case that has been developed over The member will appreciate that in working with the the years and upon which the government has relied in Privacy Commissioner…. On the one hand, I think, as moving forward. Oh yes, there's the Hansard from days I have read some of this material, privacy commission- on…. I don't know that I need to regale…. I think the ers across the provinces understand the advantages to member accepts that these conversations took place in be gained by facilitating the flow of information - be the past. tween the citizen and the state. On the other hand, they There is the business case. I think it has already been are understandably cautious when the state starts talk- FOI'd by either the official opposition or others. My ing about sharing information internally. They will want only hesitation in saying to the member, as I have to to ensure that there are safeguards in place that ensure many of his colleagues, "I'll get you that document," is that information is being shared between departments that I can't recall for certain which portions, if any, were of government for legitimate reasons, as opposed to il- prepared for cabinet or Treasury Board and, therefore, legitimate reasons. Much of that is in the future. what limitations I may be confronted with. I will en- The card, though, represents an investment in creat- deavour to ascertain that. ing a tool or a vehicle by which the work can be done in the future. The first order of business will, of course, be [D. Horne in the chair.] the health care services and the possibility of combin- ing the driver's licence with what we now know as the Some things have happened that were clearly influ- CareCard. ential in terms of the government's decision to move I apologize. That's a very long-winded answer, but I forward. Now, I'm told that the technology around the wanted to cover a lot of the turf that the member raised. notion of the chip or the smart card within the informa- tion technology industry has evolved to a point where M. Farnworth: There's no need to apologize for long- there's some greater certainty around the type of tech- winded answers. It would not be the first time that either nology that is available. he or I have been long-winded in our time here. The calculation, by the way, of the cost, which by any I appreciate the minister's comments. He's right. These measure seems…. When you think about a plastic card discussions have been going on back into the '90s and and start talking about a hundred million dollars plus, again in 2004, but each time it was just discussions, and you ask yourself, as I did: why so much? It's actually nothing happened. Now it's at a point where: "Yes, okay, done on a per-card basis. The fact that the supports, we are going to make this investment." That's why it's like: the processing and the development of the information "Okay, how much is it in…?" The unveiling of this was could be $25 or $30 a card adds up when you're talking very much centred on this as an anti-fraud method. about the potential for four million cards. What the minister is saying is that you've got $2 mil- The technology has evolved to a point where utilizing lion or $3 million or a million dollars, and you're sort the same approach that, for example, banks and finan- of going: "Okay, well, we're investing or spending this Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7603

much money to be dealing with X amount of fraud. Hon. M. de Jong: I hope to cover the points that the That's a lot of money that we're going to be spending out. member raised. The objective is to start issuing cards in If you just took, let's say, 2 million bucks a year, that's 75 the second half of next year as part of the driver's licence years to get payback. We only financed SkyTrain over 40 renewal process. That's roughly the timeline that we're years. So there are, I think, a lot of questions and con- operating under. It's a coordinated effort withICBC . We'll cern around that. want to take advantage to reduce the cost to the greatest If the minister is saying that one of the other pri- extent possible with service providers that have experi- mary aspects of this new card is the better management ence in the area and examine what is in place within the — correct me if I'm wrong here — of health records or insurance corporation on that front. the ability of physicians to access patient records faster Interesting, the scenario that the hon. member has and easier, the question, then, that comes to mind is: highlighted at the emergency room at 2 a.m. on a Friday what have we been spending in terms of health manage- night. I think that the short answer is that when you ment over the last several years? A significant amount of develop a strategy that seeks to create advantages asso- money. How is this different from the money that we've ciated with having a card and a smart card, if someone spent on health records management? Is this, in essence, shows up not having the card, many of those advan- then, an additional cost to the money that has already tages are lost. If I can, there are a couple things I want been spent, and what are we going to get for it? to say about that, since we're talking about that kind of a scenario. Hon. M. de Jong: I think it's a fair question. We talk [1615] about the paperless society and e-health, all which is de- First of all, the hope is that in the case of a motor signed to facilitate the flow of information more quickly. vehicle accident, most people still choose to take their The days of transferring bulky files from one depart- driver's licence with them when they're operating a mo- ment to another…. X-rays, for heaven's sake, move tor vehicle. So the combination…. around electronically now, and other diagnostic tools I don't carry my CareCard around. I've generally got and measurements. my driver's licence around, so hopefully there are some [1610] advantages there. What that has done, I have been reminded — and was It's still possible that someone will arrive and they reminded when the time came to discuss whether or don't have the combined card or the separate card, if not to move ahead with this proposal — that it has cre- that's what they choose to have. They get emergency ated an imperative to know with certainty, quickly, that medical service. That's the important point. you've got the right person, that the person who is pre- In that situation, is it possible that services are being senting himself with that piece of plastic is actually Mike provided to someone who is not covered under MSP? de Jong and not Mike de Jong's brother. Yes, that is the case now. Is it possible in that scenario that It's an appropriate question to ask: how does this someone will receive service and then subsequently be stuff work together in terms of e-health and facilitating billed because they're not covered or haven't registered the flow of information? What we are trying to ensure or are not entitled by residency? Yes, that exists also. The through the advent of an enhanced CareCard is that advantage of knowing, with certainty, who the patient is those individuals, those professionals, who practice at the time they present themselves via the matching of in the field of medicine can know quickly and with as the card with the individual would be lost. close to absolute certainty as possible that the person The other point, and the member today hasn't asked they are dealing with is who they say they are or who about this yet, is I think an important point that I'd like they believe them to be and that the records that they to at least get on the record. The card itself, when it is are receiving are accurate and pertain to that individual. fully operational, will not contain medical records. The That's also a very important component to what we're member has, I think, accurately and fairly presented his trying to achieve here. questions by talking about having access to medical rec- ords, and he is right. The card provides access to records M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for that that are held elsewhere. It is not a card that is designed explanation. to hold an individual's detailed health records. So in the When is it anticipated that the new cards will, in fact, case of loss or theft, people don't have to fear that some come on line? Who's going to be responsible for them? nefarious character has acquired access to all of their What firm is involved, actually, in the development of health records. the card? Hopefully that answers some of what the member has Another question is…. Okay, so I show up at a hospi- raised. tal all bloodied and battered one night, and I don't have my wallet and my card. How do you know that it's Mike M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for that last point, de Jong and not Mike de Jong's brother? because that was actually my next question. We get a 7604 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

new credit card with a new chip, and already organized viduals who require them. As the minister knows, back in crime is working on the next generation of ability to March of last year the Liberal government made a change crack that and render the card useless. So I think one of for individuals who require a range of health supports. the key issues around the ability to access health records Without consultation, the government made this change. is something that from a privacy perspective, I think It's now been a year since this policy has been brought people will have a lot of questions around. into place. We now know that there have been significant One of the first questions that did come up in the impacts for some individuals in our community. minds of the public when it heard it's linked with the I've been contacted by Dr. Tammy Gracen, who ac- driver's licence is: is ICBC going to have access to your tually tried at length going through government sources, health records? I don't think that question has been yet first to the Ministry ofH ousing and Social Development answered. at that time. Then the doctor actually, also, went and tried to contact your predecessor, the now Minister of Hon. M. de Jong: Two points in response to a good Finance. She, in fact, talked to the Minister of Finance, question. ICBC won't access health records, but perhaps who then referred her to a staff person at the ministry more importantly, they can't. It will be designed and es- with a phone number. Dr. Gracen phoned a number of tablished in that way. times, and nobody returned her call. The second point, which, quite frankly, I…. As a result, she's had patients that have come in…. One particular patient had to undergo three surgeries, M. Farnworth: ICBC is the only contractor? three amputations, because she was not able to obtain the orthopedic shoes that were required. She currently Hon. M. de Jong: No. There was something elseI was has children in her practice at the moment who cannot going to point out, which I'm sure will come back to me access orthopedic shoes because they've outgrown them. in a moment. The policy is such that if it's not a limb loss, they would not qualify to get the support. M. Farnworth: I have a final question before I move So I raise this because this is a policy that's clearly on to my colleague from Vancouver–Mount Pleasant. In faulty and that, I think, puts the cost to the health care terms of the contract and the development of the card system in a number of ways, whether it be surgery, sur- itself, is it solely ICBC, or are there outside contractors gical requirements, additional medical appointments. It involved? If so, who are they? has caused long-term health problems that those indi- [1620] viduals would require down the road if they're not able to access this preventative measure at this time. Hon. M. de Jong: There are actually two components I'd like to ask the minister to please advise: what does to the card development, I'm reminded. One is the iden- he intend to do about this, and when can we see the tification — the photograph, the facial features and that policy changed? dimension — which ICBC, admittedly, has some ex- [1625] pertise around with respect to the driver's licence. They have drawn on, and continue to draw on, some external Hon. M. de Jong: I think it was on Friday that the partners, I'm told, for that purpose. member and her colleague and I became aware of the Then there is the technology — the enhanced technol- individual case that I believe the member is referring ogy or chip component — of the card. In both cases it will to today. She correctly points out that in March of last require accessing external expertise. Whether or not in year the Ministry of Social Services and Housing, as it both cases that is the same third party as ICBC operates then was, undertook some changes at the policy level. with, I can't say at this point. In no instance would any of My recollection of those changes and what they were de- those third parties have access to health records. signed to accomplish was to eliminate circumstances in The last thing that slipped my mind that I wanted to which there was duplication of coverage. They were not say is this. For citizens who have concerns, I can stand designed or intended to eliminate access by children or here and try to allay those concerns as best I can, and adults to services or medical products for which there the state can as well, but for citizens who are adamant was a clear medical necessity. that they do not wish to have a card relating to their The member, I think, has probably heard my public driving privileges tied to a card that is responsible for commentary on this over the last 48 hours, which is that the management of health care services, they ultimately the government intends to quickly — and by the govern- have the choice to obtain two separate cards. That choice ment I mean the Ministry of Social Development and will be preserved. the Ministry of Health — ensure that in circumstances where a low-income or individual on social assistance J. Kwan: My question to the minister actually relates to is in need of a product that is a medical necessity, that the issue around orthopedic shoes and orthotics for indi- product is available. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7605

Now, I don't want in any way, shape or form to compare expectations are in asking, along with the Minister of the circumstances that confronted me with the situation Social Development, for the review to take place. and the patient that the member profiled, butI can tell the My expectation is that whether or not an individual, member this if it's any comfort. As we stand here, I've got an adult or the child of an adult, who is on social assist- a pair of custom-made orthotics on, and I understand the ance…. If there is a medical necessity associated with the difference that it can make in a person's life. need for orthotics, that product would be made available. I was a bit surprised to hear the assertion that the To the extent that that may require reviewing the general member relayed and the doctor relayed about children criteria that is being applied in making those decisions, because my recollection and my quick review suggests then that is what we will need to do. that this should not be an issue at all for children. If it I think I understand the member's suspicion, which is, we will want to address that quickly insofar as it has is that it's fine, when a patient is profiled in the media, become an issue for low-income or income assistance to address that. But I think the point the member and adults. We are in the process now of examining it, and the doctor whose correspondence she is referring to I am hopeful that in the short days ahead we'll have a would make is that there are other cases and other ex- more detailed answer for the member. amples. The review we're undertaking will consider that fact. J. Kwan: Well, Dr. Gracen in her letter actually spells I'm not certain even today that I actually have the cor- out very clearly…. In fact, those were exactly the ex- respondence that the member is referring to. If I do, I amples, and that was actually the last straw, if you will, apologize. I'm not sure I do, and I know that the mem- that drove her to my office. ber won't hesitate to provide it to me. She actually is not my constituent but obviously serves many people in the community. She came to me asking J. Kwan: I'll just close with this because I know the for help because she was at the end of her rope, and she next set of estimates is about to start. The letters that could not believe that children who needed these med- I've been copied on were actually sent back in August ical supports were not able to access them. She herself is of 2010 to the ministry, etc. I'm not sure if it's made its a mother, and she simply couldn't look the child in the way through to this current minister. Perhaps not. I'll be eye and the parent of those children in the eye and say: happy to provide copies to this current minister. "Sorry. I know you're in pain. I can stop that pain, but I Let me just put this on the public record, and then don't have the ability to do so because the government I'll wrap up my comments on this. Just to quote directly won't fund the shoes for you." from Dr. Tammy Gracen, she says: It is just absolutely heartbreaking, and that is the "As for my adult patients, basic mobility, not limb loss, should be the criteria for foot orthotics. Pain does matter, and people do reality. We have seniors in the system who are in that need to be able to walk. Regarding shoes, if orthopedic shoes are situation as well, and so it's really the young and the old required to prevent limb loss, they should be covered. Even in the and all those in between. U.S. they have a Therapeutic Shoe Bill which provides two pairs When the minister says that they are in the process of orthopedic shoes per year for diabetics." of reviewing this and hopefully there will be something She also goes on to say: "I also feel that they should be covered if they are needed to try announced shortly, can we be assured that this is ac- biomechanical problems and as an adjunct to a foot orthotic. Do tually going to be across-the-board change in terms of you provide lenses for glasses without the frame?" a policy change, as opposed to being a one-off, case-by- I think, actually, she puts it very succinctly in terms of case assessment? the issues before us. What Dr. Tammy Gracen said was that the assessment Lastly, I'll ask the minister…. I don't need an answer should not be based on people's risk of losing a limb but because it might require some time. I wonder if the min- rather people actually in pain. That is to say that if, in ister actually tracks the cost that has occurred as a result situations like that, you actually have a doctor who can of this policy that was implemented a year ago — that is verify that that medical need is there for either ortho- to say, as a result of this policy, the additional health care pedic shoes or orthotics or whatever the case may be, costs that British Columbians have had to carry because then that would be provided. of surgeries that weren't required, antibiotics that were [1630] required, follow-up visits and so on, so forth; a litany of Is that what I'm understanding the minister to say, health care costs related to this bad policy. that it would be a policy change and not a case-by-case Now, in this instance, I'll just say this. I'm high- sort of assessment that somehow has to hit the media, lighting that in that set of cuts — the issues around somehow has to generate public outcry, before the gov- orthopedic shoes and orthotics as well — there are ernment takes action? other cuts, as well, in that set of cuts that have impacted, I think, people's health negatively. I urge the minister to Hon. M. de Jong: I think the most forthright thing I follow up on those aspects, as well, with the minister. I can say is to communicate to the member now what my look forward to the policy change. If the minister can 7606 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

provide an affirmative in my seeking of the cost issues,I G. Coons: Thank you, Minister, again. We were doing would appreciate that. the ferries estimates last Tuesday, May 24. Lastly, when he says the policy review is underway I just want to clarify something. I gave the infor- and perhaps an announcement will be forthcoming, mation to the minister. The minister stated that back does he have any time frame that he's looking at? between '91 and '99, under that model, ferry fares went up about 70 percent. Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for bring- ing the matter before the committee. I could probably [J. Thornthwaite in the chair.] offer some trite answer about trying to ascertain what the costs are. I was trying to do the numbers, and I found the press [1635] release put out, the backgrounder dated December 9, I'm not sure we'll ever know, except to accept the 2002, where his own government stated that the historic proposition that there are times when short-term sav- rates between 1991 and 2001 — during those ten years ings can result in longer-term costs. That is applicable in — averaged about 4.5 percent, which would be about 45 health care and many other areas of public policy. percent, so a significant difference between that. I just We will complete the review. I'm obliged to the mem- wanted to make sure that that was clarified, and then ber for forwarding the correspondence and for alerting we can get our numbers together, because quite often me to the fact that it arrived in the ministry last year dur- we end up sometimes at the high end or lower end, de- ing the summer. Hopefully, those people for whom there pending on the debate. are real, tangible benefits — lifestyle benefits, health I wanted a clarification so the minister has the correct benefits — associated with something as simple as an information of that to prevent any perception that, you orthotic device will receive those benefits. know, somebody may be purposely misleading the pub- To the member for Port Coquitlam and his many lic. Just on that note, I just wanted to clarify that with the colleagues that participated in these estimates, I thank minister, and we can continue that discussion, if need be, them for their contribution and the opportunity to dis- some other time. cuss these important matters of public policy. Hon. B. Lekstrom: I want to thank the member. We Vote 32: ministry operations, $15,566,169,000 — will certainly look at our numbers, and you're right. approved. We've had the opportunity to meet numerous times. This is not about picking a number out of the air. We cer- The Chair: This committee will take a short recess. We tainly thought we had the numbers. I know what you've will resume with the debate of the budget estimates of the reflected and showed me. I will go to work on that and Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure. get back to you as quickly as I can.

The committee recessed from 4:36 p.m. to 4:40 p.m. H. Bains: This is a continuation of our estimates de- bate that we did last week. We touched on the Evergreen [D. Horne in the chair.] line project. As we were advised on that particular day, the time was limited for us, but now that we have more ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF time available to us, there are a few questions that we'd TRANSPORTATION AND INFRASTRUCTURE like to get some answers on from the minister. (continued) The minister stated during that estimate debate here in this House that they're waiting on the Mayors On Vote 41: ministry operations, $806,922,000 (con- Council to determine how their funding will be raised. tinued). When does the…? The question is that the minister…. Not the minister's own words, but the minister did state The Chair: Do you want to introduce the staff with here that the project now is not completing on the time you? that it was originally scheduled to complete — as a result of the statement that the minister made. Hon. B. Lekstrom: Well, thank you very much, hon. The reason given was because the mayors and Chair, for making sure I looked after things. Joining me TransLink couldn't come up with their portion of today is my deputy minister, Grant Main. As well, on the funding, which is $400 million. So my question my right is Nancy Bain, who is our Assistant Deputy to the minister is: is there any timeline as far as the Minister of Finance; Dave Byng, my chief operating completion date is concerned now that they're still officer; as well as Dave Duncan, who is the ADM for in negotiations, and no one knows when that will highways. I also have Kirk Handrahan, who is the exec- complete? utive director of the marine branch, joining us. [1645] Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7607

Can the minister give a ballpark date how long this federal government's hands, who have the money at the delay is, when the new completion date is, so that the table. It's out of the provincial government's hands, who people in that region can actually start to see if this pro- have their money at the table. ject (1) is going to start, (2) will be completed, and (3) There's no lack of agreement between TransLink and that it will be completed on a certain date? the Mayors Council and the government. There was a formal commitment made that they would fund $400 Hon. B. Lekstrom: As we spoke last time, it has been million of this project. The discussion now amongst the delayed. We're looking, probably, if all things go well Mayors Council is how they're going to raise their por- here in the next short time frame — and I'm thinking tion. So it is a waiting game right now. short…. I'm optimistic that they can find solutions to that. There are two issues. The Mayors Council and Property tax is one avenue they have. They're not excited TransLink are trying to resolve the issue, I think, on the about that. Nobody likes to see property taxes increase, short-term funding as to how they will raise the funds but if we want transit — and the Evergreen line is a com- necessary to meet their $400 million commitment to this mitment that I think everybody is looking forward to project. As I said, the province's $410 million is there. — it has to be paid for. The federal government's $417 million is there. The good part of this is that there are three funding You said that they couldn't raise the money. They can, partners at the table. There's the provincial government, as through property taxation. What they don't want to do I said, with $410 million. There's the federal government is use property taxation. That may be one of a bundle of with $417 million committed. That money is there. things they use to raise that money. There was a commitment from the Mayors Council We made a commitment to work with them. We are of $400 million. The challenge is that they haven't found now awaiting…. The Mayors Council, I know, is work- their $400 million or a method to raise that $400 million ing diligently to put forward something that is going yet. Being the eternal optimist I am, I think they're going to say: "Here's the bucket of options where we would to come up with that very shortly. like to raise that money from. We're going to have a [1650] dialogue." My goal is to have, first, the Evergreen dealt with, H. Bains: As the minister has suggested, they have and then the longer-range plan, obviously, is to find a perhaps one option where they can raise that money solution so that we're not back dealing with one-offs, from — that is the property taxes — right now, under whether it be the UBC line or any of the others. what is allowed under the legislation. It would be nice to find a funding solution, but I do But the mayors unanimously — Minister, you know want to be clear. The provincial money is there. The fed- this, and the previous ministers knew this — have said eral money is there. There was a commitment from the that property taxes are not an option. They said that some Mayors Council for $400 million that's not there yet. I'm time ago, and a unanimous decision was made that that's very optimistic that they will find a way to raise the rev- not on the table. And the minister at that time said that enue. So the ball is really in their court. I believe I said the carbon tax was not on the table. So I think that just that last time. shows that they are in quite a disagreement about how Being the optimist I am, I'm hopeful that we'll get and what sources can be used to raise that money. a resolve and a solution to it very quickly in the com- If the property taxes are not an option, then I would ing weeks, I'd like to say, and if not weeks, a very few ask the minister…. The government is the lead on this months. We'll move forward, and the people will see project, and they have committed $400 million. There's this project in the ground and completed. Certainly, it's $410 million from the provincial government and $417 about a four-year build, so if things work very quickly, million from the federal government. But there is the in late 2015, I would like to think that this line would other portion — $400 million. That's not there. be fully operational and operating for the public. That's If you are the lead, as government, are you going what this line is about. to start the project and continue to wait and see if the third partner is bringing that money to the table or not? H. Bains: The minister is saying that now, with the What would happen? If the ministry is taking the lead, negotiations that are continuing on and with the delay then how often are you meeting with the mayors and as a result of a lack of agreement on $400 million that TransLink in order to come up with their portion of the mayors and TransLink have to come up with…. I $400 million? Are we even meeting? just want to confirm. The minister is suggesting that the completion date now will be late 2015? Hon. B. Lekstrom: I guess you asked: will this pro- ceed if they don't come to the table? I think the simple Hon. B. Lekstrom: I do want to be very clear. This answer is no. I don't know how it could. This is really is really out of our hands as a province. It's out of the about a partnership. 7608 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

This is a partnership where the federal government Hon. B. Lekstrom: I guess we'll just start with the com- has come to the table with money and the provincial pletion date that is delayed by a year. I want to be very government has come to the table with money. We had clear. That's not delayed by the federal government; it is a commitment from the Mayors Council and TransLink not delayed by the provincial government. It is delayed as that they would raise their $400 million and come to the the Mayors Council works through their options. table. We are now…. As I think the member is aware, we signed a memo- Although we're the lead, I've met with the Mayors randum of understanding with them to talk about the Council. I'll be meeting again with them in June. In the in- longer term as well — what funding sources are avail- terim I am meeting with the chair of the Mayors Council able. The ball today is in the MayorsC ouncil's court. We shortly. They have gone out and held five regional meet- have said and I have said, and I made it very clear: "I'm ings to talk about what it will look like, what we need to open for discussion." do to raise this money and what you would entertain. If there are issues…. You've talked about taxation They had those discussions with the public. as one that they could actually use. They have told us: But to think that there will be another $400 million "We're not crazy about using taxation here." It may or magically appear from the provincial or federal govern- may not be part of the suite of measures that they use ments…. I'm going to be realistic with you, Member. to raise their $400 million, but what we're waiting for is That won't happen. really the work that's ongoing, and I know they're doing it every day right now. H. Bains: So I guess the question that the people of They held their regional meetings. They're in discus- that region, and I guess everyone else around the Lower sions. I'm looking forward to my next discussion not Mainland, who have been promised, who have been only with the chair, Richard Walton, but with the entire waiting to have this line proceed…. Mayors Council. But they have to work through that. [1655] I can't stress enough to the member that we always The question is: how actively and how aggressively are work to allow our local governments to have autonomy, to make decisions. So I'm quite certain the member isn't the minister and the ministry pushing this file so that we saying that the heavy hand of government should step in could find solutions to provide TransLink and the may- and overrule local governments and tell them how they ors the funding sources that they need in order to come should raise their money. I know that the member will up with their part of the commitment? correct me if I'm wrong. I think — the minister can correct me — that it will These people, these men and women who sit on the require legislative changes, just judging from what the Mayors Council, are working right now to come up with mayors have already said: that the property tax is not an options. On those options, we will enter into discus- option. They may put that back on the table.I don't know sions with them. I need them to put those down, to get that. I can't speak on their behalf. But it may not be the it together so we can begin the work — not only for the entire area of a funding source to pay $400 million. short term, which is the Evergreen line that we're talking Other sources are needed, and I understand they will about today. There is a far broader issue here. It's the full probably require — the minister will correct me or give funding model that's used as we move forward, whether this House some information — legislative authoriza- it be with the UBC line or any of the other extensions or, tion to TransLink and the mayors to go beyond what I guess, expansions of the system that exists today. they currently have as far as the funding sources. [1700] Has the minister been contemplating any legislation? Are we even close to coming up with those sources that H. Bains: Let me put it this way, then, Minister. In or- have been discussed? Is there a deadline from the min- der to achieve this new completion deadline, the later part istry, at least, to the mayors and to TransLink by which of 2015, when will this issue have to be resolved by? For they must come up with this funding? example, do they have to have this issue resolved — com- I understand that the stable and long-term sustain- ing up with the $400 million — by a certain date in order able funding for other projects probably requires longer to meet this 2015 deadline or the completion date? discussion, but this one is the one that we need to make a decision on, like, today in order for us to complete Hon. B. Lekstrom: There is no drop-dead date, even the new deadline that we are talking about. So how Member, in the sense that it will or will not proceed. We realistic is the minister? went to a request for qualifications for this project about First of all, when will this agreement be reached by ten months ago now. We had three qualified proponents. the mayors and with the minister so that the funding is For most RFQs, once they're completed, the request available so that it can proceed? Then at least the new goes forward within about three months for the project. completion date, which is delayed by almost a year now, We're ten months into this. So am I concerned that we can be achieved. may lose some of these qualified people? Yes. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7609

They haven't come to me and said: "Gosh, we're drop- Hon. B. Lekstrom: Have I had discussions with the ping out." But if traditionally in an RFQ, someone that Mayors Council? Yes, I have. Did I say that I think we qualifies is expecting to see the project proceed and go need to move on this fairly quickly if we are going to get to tender within three months, ten months in is a long this going? Yes, I did. But these are very intelligent men time for these people to hang on. The ball is in the may- and women that serve on there. They know that if it's a ors' court. If they determine they want to move on this, four-year buildout and we're not in the ground in 2011, as I said, I'm an optimist. 2015 would be a tough time to meet. So they know that. If we're going to meet the 2015 deadline, and it's about They know, and I believe that they're committed to try- a four-year buildout, the math is pretty simple. We've ing to find a solution to this. got to get going on this very quickly, and the Mayors But what I do want…. I know the member under- Council will have to make a determination. Again, I'm stands this. This is not a solution that, single-handedly, confident they will. I've had discussions with them. I the federal government or the provincial government can't see why they wouldn't. I mean, I don't think there's will solve by putting more money in. I think it's fair to an intent here, and they never told me they don't want to say that economically there are challenges out there. live up to their $400 million commitment. We're very fortunate that we've got this commitment What they've said is: "You know, property tax con- from both levels of government. cerns us. We want to look at what options are available The other thing I will say on this, Member, is that to us." If that's the only one, as the member said…. If having discussed this with the Mayors Council, I know you look at what's going on out there, whether it be fuel they're as committed as you and I to seeing this project tax they've maxed out…. There are a number of things go ahead. That is what the population wants, and that's that have gone on. If there are new ones that they need to what we want. We think it is a good project, it is the right discuss, that's what we put forward through the memo- time, and it's the right project. randum of understanding. What we have to do is have the ability — and I say we, We want to look at that. We want to work with the the Mayors Council and TransLink — to raise their $400 Mayors Council to find a solution to this.B ut I do not want million. They're working on that right now. I'm looking to leave a grey area to think that if they don't come up with forward to what they're going to bring forward to dis- their $400 million, there's another $400 million from the cuss with me as far as the options they think may work federal or provincial government. There just isn't. There to go into this. are communities and projects around the province that I don't think there's any one silver bullet that says work towards partnerships, whether it be federal, provin- that's the funding where we're going to get it all. I think cial, municipal. And in this case it's no different. — and, again, I'm kind of crystal-ball gazing here — it Again, I want to be very clear. I have not spoken to any will probably be a grouping of areas where that money member of the Mayors Council that has said: "We don't is raised from, not only for the Evergreen but probably want to live up to our $400 million commitment." They the long-term solution for the broader range of transit have all said: "We made a commitment. We will live up in the Lower Mainland as well. to it." The issue is how they're going to raise their funds — not our funds, but their funds — to do this. H. Bains: So has the minister left it entirely up to Again, is it time-sensitive? I would think it is some- the mayors and TransLink to come up with options of what. I don't have a definitive date that I can say that as sources of funding, or has the minister, the ministry, of this day this project will proceed or it won't. But if it's suggested where those potential sources of funding now a four-year buildout and we're not in the ground soon, could come from in addition to the property tax? that 2015 date would probably be in jeopardy as well. Hon. B. Lekstrom: We have actually provided through H. Bains: As the minister said, there's a four-year the MOU…. I'm not sure if the member has seen a copy buildout time, which means that by the end of this year, of that. It's pretty broad. It is wide-ranging. We are open in order to achieve the 2015 completion date, they must for discussion: "What can we do?" come up with their portion of $400 million. If it goes be- We have made it clear, though, that the Evergreen yond that, and I read this from the minister's statement, has to be a regional funding source, without question. I then that date will be further delayed if you use what the think the $410 million is the broader provincial funding minister has said — a four-year buildout time. that's brought to the table. What we're looking for is the [1705] regional funding, which would be raised regionally, and My question to the minister is this, then: have you let that's very important. Yeah, it is very wide-ranging. that concern be brought to the mayors' attention — that Have we said: "Here are the one, two or three things this issue must be dealt with before the end of this year or that you can raise money from"? No. What we've said it could be a further delay? And also…. Yeah, let me leave is: "Here's an MOU. We want to sit down and discuss all that question there, and then I'll ask the next one. opportunities and try and reach agreement." I'm quite 7610 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

confident that we may not agree on everything that's put potential debt that will be incurred if they go out and forward by either side, but I am very confident that we borrow $400 million? Is that the real issue now? can find the solution not only to the Evergreen but the longer-range issues as well. Hon. B. Lekstrom: I guess in a nutshell, yes. I mean, this is about going and getting the…. Now, again, if they H. Bains: Perhaps the minister could clarify for this had X dollars in reserve, whatever they had there, they House…. The $400 million — the TransLink portion would borrow that much less. So for the sake of it, if and the mayors' portion that we're talking about — is it was $50 million in a reserve and they needed $400 their portion of the capital cost of this project. million, they would borrow $350 million, put it in and [1710] make the payment. What they need to do is ensure that There is a discussion about the operating side of the they have a revenue source coming in to them that will cost as well. Is it not, as is my understanding, that they meet those payment requirements. have the capability of borrowing $400 million to pay for For the sake of it, I want to keep it easy. We're talking the capital cost? Then I'm sure that they need to look at $400 million. I want to leave any reserves out of it, if they options for paying the cost of that debt on a yearly basis, have any. They are going to go to the bank. They are going because it'll come from the operating side of the budget, to say, "We have worked, and we have a revenue source" which, to me, is the area of the MOU that we are looking — whatever that revenue source may be. That's really the at. I understand that they are both somewhat related. topic that they're working on right now. "We have the If they have capacity to raise money on a yearly basis, ability. I would like to borrow this much money." An on a sustainable basis, they have a better ability or a bet- evaluation is done, no different than for you and I when ter capacity to raise capital from borrowing. Is that not we go to the bank to borrow, whether it be for a home…. the option that the minister has suggested — that this is That would be looked at. Can they make the payments? a borrowing part and that, then, we can still talk about Does their revenue stream meet their payment schedule? the operating part? If it does, they would have the money. TransLink is doing very well that way. The issue here Hon. B. Lekstrom: You know, TransLink will make is very clear, though. They don't have $400 million at the determination. I know they have some reserves, but this point. They're looking for a revenue source to gen- they will not have $400 million that they just pay down erate the income that will pay for that $400 million, and and there's their share. So they're going to borrow the again, I'm optimistic we will be there very shortly. money, and what they're looking for is the revenue source to ensure that they can make those payments. H. Bains: So through these ongoing discussions that When you and I borrow money to buy a car or a home, the minister had with the Mayors Council and TransLink, we want to make sure that we have a job that will earn have they advised the mayor how much, actually, they us enough to make those payments so that in the long are looking at borrowing? Are they looking at borrowing run we pay that off. the entire $400 million, or are they suggesting that they That is what this discussion is about. TheOU M need less because they may have some reserve? will cover that. For SkyTrain — this is something that The second question would be, while the minister is TransLink is a leader in North America on — actually, at it: how much have they advised you that they need the farebox covers the operational cost, which is unique to service that debt, whatever the debt that they need in North America and something that TransLink is very to incur? proud of, and rightfully so. The operating cost is one part of it; the capital cost is another. We're talking about Hon. B. Lekstrom: No, I haven't told them how much the $400 million — I want to be very clear — that we're their payments would be. That is TransLink's job. That is looking at right now and that the Mayors Council is the Mayors Council. These are very, very brilliant men looking at coming up with, which is the capital contri- and women, both elected officials and the staff over there. bution to this project. They know they made a commitment for $400 million to bring to the table as their portion of this project. They H. Bains: So which is the…? What TransLink needs made that commitment. They want to honour that com- to borrow is $400 million, and I understand that to mitment. So when they go to revenue sources to raise service that debt there needs to be ongoing funding that, that's the discussion. They have property tax now, of available to them. which they said: "We don't want to use property tax. We [1715] want to talk to you about other revenue sources." Perhaps the minister could say: is it that portion of We said okay. They've entertained discussions, not servicing the debt of $400 million that is of concern? only amongst themselves but others. They will be the Is that the stumbling block right now — that they are ones…. I don't know what they have for capital reserves, not in a position to find operating money to service this but for the sake of this discussion, let's just put that aside Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7611

and say they have none. They would need to borrow one is blaming everyone else. In the meantime, people $400 million. are stuck in their cars, who were promised that this line What they're going to do is they will look at their will be in operation, which continues to be delayed now. payment schedule, whether they borrowed over ten And we have greenhouse gases; that commitment was years, 20 years, whatever that is. We don't dictate that made. The commitment was made to double the rider- as a government. That is between the Mayors Council ship on public transit by 2020. and TransLink. They go to work on that. They bor- You know, all those promises were made, and yet row the funding. They will set their payment schedule people are pointing fingers at each other. I think, based on what that term is, and they are going to have Minister, they are saying that the buck stops at your to be able to meet that payment schedule based on a door. You are the lead on this project and many other revenue source that we're trying to work together to projects that you're responsible for. But on this particu- have them access. lar one, which was promised — promise after promise [1720] was made — still there's no sight in the near future as to the completion date. H. Bains: I'm sorry if I made that statement, but what Has the minister asked those pointed questions? If I asked was if TransLink had advised, in those meet- they are having difficulty, what is the scope of those dif- ings with the minister or the Mayors Council, what their ficulties? How much do they need to borrow? Yes, their position is as far as their reserve is concerned. What is commitment is $400 million, but how much do they ac- their position, that they may have advised the minister tually have to borrow? Is it basically assumed that they about, on how much, actually, they're looking at bor- have to borrow $400 million even though they may only rowing towards this total commitment? And what are need to borrow less than $400 million? And how would they looking at as far as the amount that they need to the minister know what is the scope of their issue of service that debt? servicing that debt? I think those are the questions that the public is asking from this minister. Can you answer Hon. B. Lekstrom: To the member, again, I apologize some of those questions? if I give you a different answer.I interpreted the question [1725] maybe somewhat differently. In my meetings with the Mayors Council they did not indicate what they have Hon. B. Lekstrom: We seem to be going somewhat for a capital reserve, they did not indicate how much in circles here, Member, but is it not irresponsible to not they would be borrowing, and they did not indicate how ask those questions? Absolutely not. I formerly served as much revenue source they were looking for to make a mayor. I can tell you that if the government is coming those payments. to dictate…. The question has never been $200 million, $300 million, $400 million. The Mayors Council came to H. Bains: I think that it is a bit puzzling for the pub- us with a commitment of $400 million. They're going to lic who is watching this. The minister, on one hand, is raise the funds how they see fit. That is the question. saying that we are taking the lead on this project, and So it's interesting. We're taking the lead. We are go- yet, there's one partner with a significant commitment ing to deliver this. We are going to do the building. We — which is almost one-third, $400 million — that's not are going to do it, but taking the lead does not mean on the table yet. It was supposed to be there at the we're going to pay the whole shot. I don't think British end of last year; it wasn't there at the end of last year. Columbians would expect that. I don't think somebody It was supposed to be there by the end of March this in Prince Rupert would expect that. year. Not there at the end of March this year and still I think a $410 million commitment is a pretty signifi- not there today. cant commitment by this government. I think a $417 Is it not irresponsible for the minister not to ask those million commitment is a significant commitment by questions? With all due respect — I'm not blaming this the federal government. Those dollars are there. That on this minister; he's fairly new in taking over this file. commitment has been lived up to. We have a commit- But somebody from the government must show some ment from a third funding partner, being TransLink, the leadership, must go and talk to the Mayors Council and Mayors Council, who says: "We're at the table with $400 TransLink and ask those questions — what is the holdup, million." These two commitments are there. The money how much do you actually need to borrow, are you talk- is in the bank. This commitment isn't. ing about borrowing the entire $400 million, and what They're working hard to find their $400 million. is the issue about servicing that debt? — so that the min- They could raise it tomorrow if they wanted to raise ister is aware what the scope of this problem is as far as some property taxes. Tomorrow they could, but let's borrowing and servicing that debt. be clear. They don't want to use that pot of money, I think that's where the public is losing their patience. or at least not exclusively. They've made that clear. I They're saying: where is the leadership? You know, every- have heard that. 7612 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

So the issue is not: "If we only had to borrow $200 They are talking about, under an OUM that we signed million, we could do this project." That has never been with them, all of the options available. Some may or may on the floor for discussion. We are the lead. The only not require legislative change. We don't know. They're thing right now…. working on that. Many of the questions would be better directed to the I don't know how much clearer I can be on an answer. TransLink members and the Mayors Council. I can't an- I hope the member…. If he goes back to "duck the ques- swer for them. What I can tell you is that the discussion tion," we'll focus the next two hours on that. I'm happy I've had with them leaves me with the feeling that they're to do that. committed to finding a way in working with us so that The RFQ went out and was closed in September of they can find ways to raise their $400 million. 2010. There were seven proponents.F our were removed Let's be clear, though, to the public. They can raise from that. Three met the qualifications. They were noti- it today if they wanted. Their hands are not tied. What fied. They are on the list. they have said is they don't want to use property taxes, But as I said, right now we are about ten months into and that's their choice. this process. After an RFQ the average time is about But I'm not going to leave any, I guess, people think- three months before those projects would go to tender. ing that there's something the provincial government We're very fortunate that those three have hung on. I or the federal government has done to stall this. We are don't know how long they will hang on. there with our dollars; the federal government is there. Is this time-sensitive? I would have to think…. The Mayors Council is not there with their dollars yet, Anybody in the business world knows what we're talk- but I'm optimistic. They're going to work with us to find ing about here and would probably be quite amazed that the way to raise their dollars that are needed. somebody has hung on ten months waiting for this ten- der to come out. H. Bains: Perhaps I will move on, especially…. The ball is in the Mayors Council's court right now. That's as straightforward as it can be, and I can't give a Interjections. straighter answer than that.

H. Bains: We're not going to get the answer, as the H. Bains: Perhaps the right thing to suggest here is minister continued to duck the question, in my view. that the government, I think — the minister is a part But some of the initiatives have been, I think, ongoing. of that — is ducking the responsibility. It is the respon- For example, the RFQs, Minister, were asked for, and sibility of the government, which announced all of these then they closed September 7. That's my understand- projects in 2007. They put timelines on when those pro- ing. The short list of respondents was supposed to be jects would be completed. announced in the fall of 2010, and yet nothing has been Yes, there were partners at the table. Yes, there were announced. Can the minister advise as to the status of responsibilities, and people took the commitment to the RFQs? come to the table. I understand that. But the minister, at [1730] the end of the day, is responsible, and the government, at the end of the day, is responsible for delivering those [P. Pimm in the chair.] projects. So it is clearly the government that is duck- ing its responsibility in not having those partners at the Hon. B. Lekstrom: Let's go back to your first com- table, not having that issue resolved as far as the funding ments about ducking the question. I don't duck any is concerned. question, and I'm not going to here. I want to be very On the RFQ question that I asked the minister. Three, clear for the millions of people that are watching this, as I understand, would be identified, qualified, through I'm sure, riveted to their televisions. the RFQ process. Three bidders would qualify, and they We have said we are committed to the Evergreen line. would be announced, as was suggested, by fall of 2010. We have $410 million committed to that project. The But no announcement has been made of who those federal government has $417 million committed to that. qualified bidders are. The Mayors Council, TransLink, said they would put Can the minister announce who they are today, and $400 million towards this project — a very good project, if not today, when would you announce those success- the Evergreen line. ful bidders? The issue is that the federal government and provin- [1735] cial government have their funding in place; the Mayors Council and TransLink do not. They are presently look- Hon. B. Lekstrom: I'm not sure what the member has ing at ways and avenues that they would like to secure against ducks, but let's go back to ducking the respon- that funding. They can do it through property tax. They sibility question. Nobody is ducking the responsibility, don't want to. Member. You and I always have good dialogues, and I Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7613

appreciate that this in the manner in which we're dis- H. Bains: I have a few questions on B.C. Transit. cussing it. But our partners made a commitment, and Perhaps I could read a statement here — a statement as we're the lead, we're one of the partners. We're one of of facts, I believe. According to the 2011 service plan, three. We have $410 million there. Minister, in 2010-11, B.C. Transit will be operating on I'm pretty certain members of the watching public a $283.78 million budget, $71.2 million of which will are going to know these numbers off by heart as well. come from the municipal governments. By 2013-14 the So $410 million from the partner, being the provin- budget will be $383.4 million, with the municipal gov- cial government; $417 million from the partner, being ernments being responsible for $124.9 million — an the federal government; and the third partner, being increase of 75 percent. TransLink, the Mayors Council, had a $400 million Municipal governments have raised concerns over commitment. Those are the three funding partners. this increase. We talked about the other issues, and the We have a funding commitment by the feds. Their municipal governments also were having some issues money is there. We have a funding commitment by the with this. Is the ministry exploring other ways that B.C. province. Their money is there. We have a funding com- Transit could be funded? mitment by TransLink and the Mayors Council. Their money isn't there, so there is a challenge. Hon. B. Lekstrom: B.C. Transit is always looking at If it's live up to the commitments, I'm optimistic that opportunities and alternative funding sources. Obviously, TransLink will. As I said, we're entertaining discussions one is very fundamental. It's increasing ridership, which right now. No announcement has been made. obviously generates more revenue. A very good plug for Member, I'll go back to the question that you asked. B.C. Transit: last year ridership went up 5 percent, a very I don't know, Member. I don't have an answer for you significant number. The year before that it was 2½ per- today on that. I will go to work. I will find out why cent, so to see a 5 percent increase helps everybody. those three proponents have not been named, as you B.C. Transit has also entered into a pilot project with said they were in that release. Or if you could share that Mission and Abbotsford on alternative funding options. with me, I'd very much appreciate that. I will go to work They're very proactive on that, understanding that as and endeavour to get the member an answer as quickly communities have their portion to put in, they have a tax as I can. base that they have to go to for that, similar to the discus- sions we've just gone through on the Evergreen line. H. Bains: It was my understanding that it was the I think they're very proactive. They're always open to Evergreen line rapid transit project brief, July 5, 2010, discussions and always looking for alternative sources on page 12. It was announced that the short-listed re- in working in collaboration with the communities that sponders were supposed to be announced in the fall of they provide this service to. 2010. Now, as the minister said, almost ten months have gone by since the time that the process started, and this H. Bains: Minister, on March 8, 2011, the Victoria September 7 was the closing date. regional transit commission voted to cut transit ser- So that's the question. Perhaps the minister could…. vice by 7,000 annualized service hours. Kelowna is I'm surprised that the ministry staff do not have the proposing cutting some bus routes in order to par- answer to that, as far as when those successful bidders' ticipate in the new rapid bus system, pending public names would be published. I thought that they would consultation. Can the minister advise how these cuts have that information, but if not, perhaps the minister fit into the provincial transit plan goal of doubling can announce that later. ridership by 2020? Based on that, can the minister explain now when the [1745] RFP stage will begin? If that is anticipated in the near fu- ture, is there a timeline on that as well? Hon. B. Lekstrom: A couple of things to this answer. In Kelowna they projected ridership to go up by 3 per- Hon. B. Lekstrom: You asked: when will the RFP cent. The actual is 9.6 percent. proceed? The RFP will proceed when the funding part- ners have their funding secured. [D. Horne in the chair.] [1740] Right now we have funding secured from the federal The other one is that our provincial transit plan calls government, and I won't reiterate the number because I for a 5-percent-per-year increase in ridership, so we've know that the member knows. We have funding secured achieved that as well, as I stated last time. The issue here from the provincial government. We are waiting for is that when you talk about the 7,000 hours — I'm quot- TransLink and the Mayors Council, working together, to ing from the member; I may have that number a little bit secure their funding. When that is concluded, the RFP off — that they have cut back the service, actually that's will proceed. a result of route rationalization. 7614 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

I think it's fair to say that when you cut hours back, H. Bains: I would like to move on, because of the time you want to make sure that you have the proper route, again. There are so many questions about B.C. Transit. that you're stopping at the proper times, that you're We will not be able to ask those questions today as part picking up the most people. Route rationalization is a of the time constraint. fundamental basis of how you can actually — I think, The SouthF raser perimeter road — we have a few more in the words of the member — say, cut hours of service questions on that. I want to read, for the record, this mo- but at the same time enhance the service provided to the tion that the Delta council considered on May 16: travelling public. That's what's going on here. "(a) that the B.C. environmental assessment office be advised that the corporation of Delta does not support the proposed amendment to the South Fraser perimeter road table of commit- H. Bains: Let's move on to Kamloops. Since 2008- ments that would allow culverts instead of bridges for two of the 2009 the province was working with Kamloops to add North Delta creek crossings, an additional 10,000 service hours, but then B.C. Transit "(b) that the B.C. environmental assessment office be advised admitted in 2009 that only 4,000 had been added, in- that the corporation of Delta expects Gateway to be held to the design and operating standards described in the original table of stead of the 10,000 that were agreed to or promised. The commitments, city approved, since that time, an additional 2,500 hours "(c) that specific details of the vegetation and wildlife com- of service earlier this year, but it still falls short of the pensation for fill site No. 5 and the Highway 99 interchange be 10,000 hours that originally were planned and antici- requested to ensure that the compensation for these additional project impacts is explicitly accounted for and addressed, pated. Can the minister advise if there are any plans to "(d) that a copy of this report be sent to" a number of the minis- live up to that promise? ters here — I will not name them — and a number of MLAs." The time,I am advised, is not what I was led to believe My question to the minister is: are the minister and earlier on. It is a different timing. The time now is cut the ministry willing to comply with the request from back for my estimates, I am told again. Delta council? There's another question here. Four additional buses Because of the time, I believe then the member for Delta were promised to Kamloops in 2008. Can the minis- North will have a few questions on the same issue. ter also advise if there are any plans to live up to that [1755] promise? [1750] Hon. B. Lekstrom: I will start, Member, by introducing Geoff Freer, who has joined us. He is the executive direc- Hon. B. Lekstrom: I have been going on at some tor of the gateway program here in British Columbia. length here on B.C. Transit. I'm going to take a moment What's happened. You talked about the culverts versus to introduce a couple of staff that have joined us from the bridges. Obviously, as the project began and has been B.C. Transit. Joining me is Manuel Achadinha, who is worked on, it became clear that they could use these the CEO of B.C. Transit, as well as Michael Kohl, who is culverts versus a full bridge, which is less of an environ- the chief financial officer. mental footprint, for example, than the bridges. Kamloops. There were, as you said, 10,000 hours com- As we move forward, we will always meet the environ- mitted to that, additional. As you said, there were 4,000 mental standards in this province, which everybody originally, 2,500 added as well, so well below the 10,000. should be proud of. These changes are before the EA Part of that is that we are building a new maintenance right now and awaiting a decision on that. But I would facility, a new maintenance garage, there in order to expect, as we move forward, that anytime you can lessen meet the requirements. That new maintenance facility is the footprint of a project — and there's been a great deal a federal-provincial-municipal project joined together, of consultation on this one — that's in the best interests which is very exciting. of everybody in British Columbia. Part of this growth that we're putting in place, whether it be 10,000 hours or greater, is based on the H. Bains: What I'm hearing from the minister is that transit future master plan for the region. Part of that there's no intention on the minister's part to comply master plan — and probably, without question, the with the request that the Delta council has asked of the most important — is going out and engaging the pub- different organizations here and the minister — to com- lic, finding out what routes are working, what routes ply with their request. may need to be added, what the times are, what's work- [1800] ing and what isn't, and making sure that we have the best plan for the region. [The bells were rung.] Having served in local government previously and in this position, I've already heard from local government Hon. B. Lekstrom: We will come back, and I will give that they don't want to have things imposed on them. you an answer to that question, Member. They would rather have it dealt with in a collaborative At this time I would move that the committee rise, manner. That's what's taking place here. report resolution and completion of the Ministry of Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7615

Health and progress on the Ministry of Transportation Hon. B. Penner: I'm not sure I can give a specific and Infrastructure and ask leave to sit again. breakdown as between Mr. Virk and Mr. Basi, but in total it looks like there was about $350,000. However, some Motion approved. of that, as the member was suggesting or asking, would have been jointly owned by the respective spouses, par- The committee rose at 6:01 p.m. ticularly in the case of Mr. Basi.

Committee of Supply L. Krog: I would have thought, given that I filed ques- tions on notice with the minister…. I refer specifically to ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF question 7: "TheA ttorney General claimed that the defend- ATTORNEY GENERAL ants had no money to cover these costs despite evidence (continued) of property holdings that appears to contradict this claim — can the Attorney General produce documents showing The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); D. that the government conducted a full review of the de- Horne in the chair. fendants’ ability to pay in arriving at this conclusion?" I'm going to assume the minister has with him tonight at least The committee met at 6:46 p.m. somewhat more useful information than he's provided. Was the equity in the property in real estate only, or is On Vote 16: ministry operations, $351,678,000 (con- the $350,000 figure attributable to RRSPs or other hold- tinued). ings, including vehicles and other tangible assets, that would have been in Mr. Basi's name? L. Krog: The last time we met,I was asking a question: what steps did the ministry take specifically to determine Hon. B. Penner: I'm advised that both personal prop- that it was not worth pursuing Mr. Basi on his pledge of erty searches as well as land title searches were conducted. assets to the province respecting the legal fees arising out of the B.C. Rail corruption trial? I'd asked a number of L. Krog: There was security taken over Mr. Basi's examples. Was an appraisal done? Was the mortgage a assets. Can the Attorney General describe what particu- first mortgage, a second mortgage, a third mortgage? lar security that was? Was it a mortgage? Was it a general indemnification? Were there any lists of assets provided Hon. B. Penner: I think I indicated that, yes, we did by Mr. Basi when he entered into that arrangement with get an appraisal. The province's interests were secured the government? by way of a second mortgage on the property, and that [1855] property, I believe, was co-owned with Mr. Basi's wife. Hon. B. Penner: As I indicated already, the province L. Krog: Can the minister confirm: what was the had a mortgage registered against the property of Mr. amount of the first mortgage outstanding in principal? Basi which ranked second in priority. The legal services I assume that was part of the investigation, obviously, branch ascertained the amount outstanding on the first and if so, what was that versus the appraised value of mortgage, but I'm advised that it would infringe not the property? only privilege but also Mr. Basi's privacy to provide fur- ther details. Hon. B. Penner: I am advised that we don't have that number here with us today. L. Krog: Given that most mortgages state a specific amount in the principal, which is public knowledge, L. Krog: Well, given that we last met on May 12, I and obviously, the amount is presumably less than that, would have thought it wouldn't have been impossible can the Attorney General advise: what was the amount to obtain that information. It's a fairly obvious question. shown in the mortgage — which is, after all, a public If the province was going to write off an estimated $6 document? million in legal fees, presumably half of which, argu- ably, could be attributable to Mr. Basi, and he had actual Hon. B. Penner: We'll endeavour to track down what equity in his home, I would have presumed that infor- the face value of the first mortgage was. mation would be available. Can the minister advise of any information respect- The Chair: Member, I would encourage you to show ing what the estimated value of the equity was — that the relevance explicitly to the vote. equity belonging to Mr. Basi as opposed to Mrs., assum- ing the property was jointly owned? L. Krog: The relevance to the vote, obviously, relates to [1850] the conduct of the Ministry of Attorney General in the 7616 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

expenditure of public funds, including $6 million in fees Hon. B. Penner: As I've noted in my previous answers, that were paid. I don't wish to enter into any argument, the government did have a form of security in terms of a but we have spent some time on this matter previously, second mortgage over the Basi property. In addition, as I and I want to ask the question which the Attorney indicated, I think, in my last answer, we did have security General hasn't answered. Was there any other security in terms of personal property relating to an RRSP. taken, apart from the mortgage? I have told the committee that we are prepared to release the details of the value of that RRSP if we can Hon. B. Penner: Yes, I'm advised that the ministry confirm if that's appropriate, without violating solicitor- did have some additional security, in particular over an client privilege or other issues related to personal privacy. RRSP, I believe. But to the Chair's point, the Chair is cor- So we want to make sure that that's checked off before rect that the member is asking questions about last fiscal, we disclose that, but we're certainly prepared to do it if and these estimates are about fiscal 2011-2012. it's determined to be appropriate. [1905] L. Krog: I appreciate that, but then, the minister has The member and I actually agree on more here than answered a number of very specific questions related to perhaps he understands. Like him and many others, I this matter previously or has been unable to provide in- was also very concerned about the cost involved here formation and has endeavoured to provide information. and whether or not government had obtained adequate Can the minister tell me how much was in the RRSP that security before advancing funds. My understanding is was secured? that this matter went on for many years, and contrary to [1900] the impression that some people may have, it didn't con- clude with a one-time payment. So the payments were Hon. B. Penner: I will consider the member's ques- made over, I believe, a period of time. tion and whether or not we're able to disclose that Given all that, I thought it was appropriate to ask Mr. information. We'll go back and see what it is. If that in- Toope, who is the president of UBC and a former dean formation is appropriate to disclose without violating of law from McGill University, to consider a number of anyone's privilege or confidentiality, then we would be things: namely, what the purpose is of the indemnity happy to disclose that. policy, and how has it expanded over time? I think we The member is correct. We have spent a number of can all agree here that it appears to have expanded to hours now canvassing questions related to last year's criminal matters for the first time in the 1990s and then budget estimates, as opposed to this year's. onward without necessarily being clearly codified in a written policy that's transparent to everyone. L. Krog: I appreciate the minister's comments, but the Mr. Toope has agreed to look into this matter — questions that are on the order paper are fairly straight- without remuneration, I might add, which I think is forward. I would have expected the Attorney General appropriate. A lot of money has already been spent, as to have with him and available for his estimates infor- the member has noted, and it would be in my interest in mation related to a matter which caused a great deal of trying to better control costs in the future. So I think it's public concern. It was the writing off of $6 million, es- appropriate that this review starts with Mr. Toope not timated, in legal fees paid by the government of British charging taxpayers additional money to find out how we Columbia for two individuals who pled guilty to fairly can save taxpayers money in the future. serious offences. With respect to the criminal context…. That's how That would be the first time, according to whatI heard this policy clearly changed at some point; I think it was from the minister on the last occasion that we met, that in the 1990s. I've specifically asked Mr. Toope, in the British Columbia has ever paid the legal fees of two indi- terms of reference, in point 2, and I'll quote this into viduals who have either been found guilty or pled guilty the record: to criminal matters that occurred while they were work- "In the criminal context, the review should consider whether ing for government. there are circumstances in which it is appropriate for government, If I'm going to not get any forthcoming answers on the rather than the public servant, to bear the legal costs involved and, if so, provide policy guidance regarding both the circumstances specifics, I've asked the Attorney General to advise me and the approach — for example, whether there should be an specifically, if he can: was there a mortgage on the house, indemnity or reimbursement, and if indemnity, whether upon a was there a general security agreement, was there a guilty plea or conviction repayment should be required." pledge, or was there an assignment? What was the nature That's an explicit consideration for Mr.T oope in his review of the legal instruments — which I assume his ministry, that he's accepted responsibility for undertaking. in their wisdom and being careful, would have obtained In point 6, I've specifically asked Mr.T oope to turn his before they entered into this arrangement to pay poten- mind to the following, and I'll read the second sentence tially substantial legal fees on behalf of two individuals in point 6: "The review should also provide guidance working for the Liberal government? regarding any conditions or requirements that should Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7617

apply, such as repayment, appropriate security and ter- In the lawyers' parlance, this is known as a Rowbotham mination of coverage." application — or a Rowbotham order, if you're suc- That goes, I think, to some of the questions and the cessful. Typically, the ministry would have to assess, in unease that the member is feeling about whether or not criminal matters, whether granting and administer- appropriate security has been obtained in the past for ing an indemnity was an appropriate course of action, indemnity matters and what we can do better in the fu- weighed against the possibility of a Rowbotham order, ture to control costs and make sure that the interests of which is something that is effectively imposed on the taxpayers are better protected. Crown as an obligation and a burden to pay in return for being permitted to advance a particular prosecution. L. Krog: The minister indicated earlier in his answers It's in that context that these difficult decisions some- this evening that there was approximately $350,000 times are made. worth of equity. There's an RRSP of an undisclosed Specifically, in the terms of reference that Mr. Toope amount that's covered. will be guided by for his review of the indemnity policy, Was there security over such things as vintage auto- I have asked in point 3, and I'll read this into the rec- mobiles or any automobiles? Was there a general security ord, for him to consider the following: "Where alternate agreement? Was there a security agreement over any bank means of legal expense coverage exist, they should be accounts? In other words, what other security did the considered, as well as the possibility in criminal pro- province actually have to secure what turned out to be, ceedings where a court may order public funding of for all most practical purposes, a limitless legal bill? defence costs — e.g., Rowbotham orders." [1910] That is sometimes a moving goalpost because differ- ent courts, when they apply the Rowbotham test, may Hon. B. Penner: Some of this is ground that I think come to new conclusions based on how the law evolves we canvassed when last we met as a committee to talk over time. I know that the Ministry of Attorney General about the estimates, from last year as opposed to this is confronted by Rowbotham applications fairly regu- year, for the Ministry of Attorney General. But as I said larly. Particularly in the context of major trials, that can on that last occasion, there were rigorous independent be expensive. accounts review arrangements, which are typically en- It is something that we respond to on behalf of taxpay- tered into by the Ministry of Attorney General if and ers. We want to try to protect their interests while also when indemnities are agreed to. That's been the practice making sure, of course, that the administration of jus- of the ministry to date. tice is protected and that if it's deemed appropriate, the The premise for having an independent reviewer as- Crown is able to move forward with the prosecution. sess the legal fees, or the bills that are submitted, is that it would be inappropriate for the Crown, as the indemnitor, L. Krog: The guts of the issue is that there appears to control or be seen to control the amount of money to be an RRSP. The Attorney General has still not an- spent in defence of criminal proceedings brought by the swered about other security that may exist over other Crown as a prosecutor even where, in this case, there is assets. There's $350,000 equity, potentially, in a family an independent prosecutor. home that could have been easily foreclosed. I appre- You may legitimately ask if that is a sufficiently robust ciate the comments made at the time that it would be method to protect the interests of taxpayers. I think that's, costly, but the last time I checked, foreclosures in this again, what is at the heart of the matter here. province don't cost $350,000. Presumably, there would That relates to why I've asked Mr. Toope to look into have been equity to recover, even if it was only half of this matter to see if there aren't some better ways to pro- that equity, which would be $175,000. tect the interests of taxpayers and build a greater clarity The real question is: in circumstances where there is into the policy and also, by the way, to consider whether, evidence of substantial equity in real estate and an RRSP from a perspective of public administration, there are — which is readily exigible, arguably, if it's been assigned benefits to providing indemnity to government employ- properly — why would this government write off any ees or whether in fact there aren't considerable benefits rights to those legal fees? from the public administration perspective. [1920] The other thing that I think has been overlooked to date in this discussion we've been having is that any Hon. B. Penner: Just to address the member's ques- time we're faced, in a criminal law context…. One of tion about why government would choose to do this the things we have to assess is whether parties facing and to reiterate what we talked about at considerable a criminal matter might be successful in asserting a length last time when we last visited the estimates from Charter right to a fair trial that includes state funding last year, no elected official was involved in this deci- for their defence. sion. It was made at the unelected-officials level, dealing [1915] with the policy such as it was. 7618 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

We've already noted that it looks like there could be L. Krog: Well, I don't think I heard the Attorney some improvements in terms of enhancing the clar- General say that my statement of the law was inaccurate, ity of the policy, particularly as it applies to criminal and I'm very flattered by that, of course. But presum- law matters involving government employees. That ably, a second mortgage is a second mortgage is a second is something that Mr. Toope is now engaged in, the mortgage. It is security and clearly would have provided president of UBC and former dean of law at McGill security. law school. If I can just clarify how this arrangement was arrived I want to also note that the member will be aware that at, the Attorney General has stated that this agreement, sometimes individuals, when faced with a daunting debt if you will, or decision — I won't call it an agreement — and efforts to collect on that debt, may elect to declare to not seek to recover any of the legal fees, which were bankruptcy. The member will know that when that hap- the subject of this security, which were the subject of pens, that makes collection more difficult. the second mortgage…. This decision was made en- To go back to another document that we made tirely by the Deputy Minister of Finance and the Deputy mention of during our last debate on this topic — Attorney General, and that was made solely on the basis the statement of, I believe, October 20, 2010, by the of the cost of recovering that. then Deputy of Finance and current Deputy Attorney Or is the Attorney General telling us that this decision General. One of the paragraphs says as follows: "A ma- was made as part of a plea bargain whereby Messrs. Basi jor consideration was the relatively small amounts that and Virk said: "We'll plead guilty. We'll bring an end to might be recovered from Mr. Basi and Mr. Virk com- this costly trial and plead guilty if you won't come after pared to the millions of additional dollars it would cost us for our legal fees"? the government to continue to fund defence, prosecu- tion and court-related costs through to the completion Hon. B. Penner: As we canvassed last time at con- of the trial and to fund any appeals with no guarantees siderable length — I think that we spent more than a of convictions." couple of hours on this overall topic debating issues that The member has just referred to the amount of arose in last year's budget estimates time period — there $350,000. I think he said that was the main value or are solicitor-client issues at play here which restrict my equity in the home. I'm not sure that's necessarily cor- ability to answer some of the questions. rect. I mentioned already that that's, I think, a number I can indicate on the record what's already been pub- inclusive of an RRSP and may be inclusive of Mr. Virk's licly disclosed in that statement from October 20, 2010, equity as well, as opposed to just one home. So just to signed by both the Deputy Attorney General and the caution the member about that number. then Deputy of Finance. I'll read a paragraph here that applies: "For clarity, neither the special prosecutor nor L. Krog: Is the minister then saying, when he men- I communicated that decision to the Attorney General tioned bankruptcy, that in fact the Crown wasn't secured on October 8, 2010. No one outside the legal services by a mortgage and wasn't secured by a proper security branch, myself and the Deputy Minister of Finance had agreement that would have taken priority over ordin- any knowledge of this or involvement. For clarity, neither ary creditors — that the only creditors who therefore the special prosecutor nor the Attorney General had any could have taken priority over the provincial govern- knowledge of the matter or involvement in this." ment, arguably speaking, would be Canada Customs and Revenue and statutory agencies such as that? Is that L. Krog: We can confirm for the record that the what the minister is telling us? Attorney General's position and the position of his min- istry is this. The guilty plea was already in place. The Hon. B. Penner: As noted in that joint statement agreement for the guilty plea was already in place with from October 20, the two deputies were mindful of the the special prosecutor. The decision to write off security relatively small amount available for possible recovery against the assets of the accused, including a presum- versus the certainty of large additional costs if the mat- ably valid registered second mortgage which created ter were to proceed. the government as a secured creditor, was made entirely [1925] independently. The member is asking whether certain types of debts can take priority to a second mortgage. I think Hon. B. Penner: I'm advised that for reasons I've al- the member alluded to a number of examples, and my ready stated, I can't say anything more than I already understanding is that some of those debts that he de- have on the record numerous times. scribed do, in certain circumstances. But I'm advised [1930] that I'm not at liberty to disclose the particulars of the financial circumstances of these individuals due to pri- L. Krog: I would have thought the question was fairly vacy regulations or laws. simple. I'll repeat it. Perhaps the Attorney General has Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7619

misunderstood me. He has stated that the decision to cifics of this matter owing to issues around solicitor-client write off the government's claim to recover legal fees, privilege and privacy matters. But I do, again, appreciate which was dealt with by way of security on the prop- the member's unease about the whole issue around the erties, was made entirely independently of anything cost of the matter, the indemnity provisions generally and involving a guilty plea, which was an arrangement en- whether or not there was adequate security for the prov- tered into between the special prosecutor, the accused ince in terms of recovering costs in this matter. and their counsel. That, again, goes to the reasons why I felt it appro- I just need to hear it from the Attorney General. Am priate to ask Mr. Toope, Stephen Toope, the president I, in fact, correct that the decision to write off the legal of UBC and past dean of law at McGill law school, to fees was entirely separate and had nothing to do with review this matter. In particular, he has been asked to the guilty plea? consider the rationale for the policy, the history of the development of the policy and how it has been applied Hon. B. Penner: I can go back and reread the state- in the past, and the need for indemnity agreements from ment from October 20, 2010, if that would assist the a public administration perspective. member. I suspect he will say no, because he's been ask- The review should recommend the circumstances in ing this and we've been discussing this and I've been which indemnity agreements should be applied in re- answering now for several hours on this topic. spect of civil matters and should separately consider an appropriate policy for criminal matters. So I look for- The Chair: Member. I'd caution the member. I've ward to the work that Mr. Toope will do and to receiving been providing significant latitude. his report in due course.

L. Krog: Thank you, hon.C hair. I have full respect, and L. Krog: I assure the Attorney General that every- I appreciate it and will try to stay within the limits. one in the British Columbia public and the taxpayers My question to the Attorney General is this. If we ac- of the province look forward to Mr. Toope's work on cept that there was security — and the Attorney General this very important and very troubling issue. But at has made that statement — and if we accept that the this juncture, if there were assets available and the trial was finished and therefore the most expensive trial is over, what's the reason for not pursuing the part of this whole ugly proposition, from the govern- security? Was the Attorney General's ministry or the ment's perspective, was finished — the ongoing costs staff advised it was going to cost $50,000 and there of the trial, the judge's salary and pension, the sheriffs, was only $50,000 in equity? Were they advised it was all those people involved — and all of those incredible going to cost $100,000? I throw out those figures be- public-dollar-funded expenses were gone, then why in cause they're exaggerated figures. They're not realistic heaven's name…? in terms of the costs of recovery. If the province was secure and there were, at a So the costs of recovery versus the evidence I have be- minimum, tens of thousands of dollars — and I am fore me. The Attorney General's earlier responses to my minimizing — of secured assets available and the trial question around the equity that might have been avail- was done, why in heaven's name would the taxpayer, able would indicate that there was money to go after, through the Attorney General's ministry, through the and there was no good reason not to. Ministry of Finance, write off those legal fees? This is a government that will happily pursue social I would love to hear a salient, logical, cogent explana- assistance recipients at no small cost to the taxpayer, tion for that. If I were the Royal Bank of Canada and I people who have absolutely no prospect of paying a were in second position on a mortgage and there was nickel to the government before the inevitable h-e-l-l $100,000 or even $50,000 in equity, you sure wouldn't freezes over, and yet at the same time will write off what find me writing off that mortgage on behalf of the share- appears to be substantial legal fees in a case like this holders. So the simple question is: if it's good enough for where they actually have security. the Royal Bank of Canada, why isn't it good enough for It's not even a question of having a judgment or be- the taxpayers of British Columbia? ing able to levy a judgment, as it is with social assistance [1935] recipients, that is enforceable. This is actual security, the same kind of commercial security that the most Hon. B. Penner: The public statement that was issued successful banks in the world, our good old Canadian on October 20, 2010, makes it clear that the decision re- chartered banks, secure over the vast majority of British specting the legal fees was made independently of the Columbians and Canadians in general. special prosecutor. So it was not a decision made by the So my question is: what was the reason? Was it special prosecutor. I think that's important to note. going to be too expensive, and if so, why was it too I've already highlighted some of the constraints that expensive? I'm faced with in terms of dealing with some of the spe- [1940] 7620 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

Hon. B. Penner: I have answered as best I can, given "Thomas Hawtry, gentleman, was served with a subpoena to the confines of solicitor-client privilege as well as con- testify his knowledge touching the cause and variance, and made oath that he hath been and yet is a solicitor in this suit and hath fidentiality and privacy considerations. Then again, I received several fees of the defendant; which being informed to want to stress that according to the statement released the Master of the Rolls, it is ordered that the said ThomasH awtry publicly on October 20, 2010: shall not be compelled to be deposed touching the same and that "A major consideration was the relatively small amounts that he shall be in no danger of any contempt, touching the not exe- might be recovered from Mr. Basi and Mr. Virk, compared to cuting of the same process." the millions of additional dollars it would cost the government That is the full report of that case. If but other court to continue to fund defence, prosecution and court-related costs judgments more recently were of such brevity. through to the completion of the trial, and to fund any appeals, with no guarantees of convictions." The principle originated as protection for individuals Further, the next paragraph: when accessing the knowledge and legal resources avail- "Based on the above, in our respective capacities, the Deputy able to a lawyer and was said to stem from the oath and Minister of Finance and I decided to release Mr. Basi and Mr. Virk honour of the lawyer — a sort of special contractual re- from their liability to repay. I communicated that decision to the lationship, so I've been advised. Attorney General on October 8, 2010. In situations where indemnity agreements are in "No one outside the legal services branch, myself and the Dep- uty Minister of Finance had any knowledge of this or involve- place between the province and others, the province is ment. For clarity, neither the special prosecutor nor I communi- funding the lawyer involved in the matter and therefore cated that decision to the Attorney General on October 8, 2010. becomes aware of certain things that we would not be- "No one outside the legal services branch, myself and the Dep- come aware of if not for that contractual relationship or uty Minister of Finance had any knowledge of this or involve- ment. For clarity, neither the special prosecutor nor the Attorney the funding relationship that exists. Various informa- General had any knowledge of the matter or involvement in this." tion flows from that, but I'm advised that it is protected by solicitor-client privilege. The Chair: It has been common practice of Committee of Supply for many years that pursuing questions re- L. Krog: I don't think I've heard Lovelace referred to lated to the current fiscal year discussions typically take since I started law school in 1976. It's been an amazing place regarding the previous fiscal year. By providing a journey down memory lane for us this evening, and I do forum for detailed examination of fiscal plans for a min- appreciate the Attorney General's attempt at it. istry, Committee of Supply debate is often informed by including comparative information from the previous Interjections. fiscal year. Questions relating to the ministry expenditures in L. Krog: My friend for Powell River–Sunshine Coast the 2010-2011 fiscal year are not necessarily out of order. suggests I was there to hear the decision, but he's prob- However, I urge the member to ensure that his questions ably inaccurate by at least a couple of centuries. are also clearly relevant to the vote presently under con- I appreciate the Attorney General's remarks, and that's sideration — namely, Vote 16. very helpful. But just so I'm entirely clear in understand- ing the concept, who's the client and who's the solicitor? L. Krog: The Attorney General has raised the issue of Is the relationship the Attorney General that is covered solicitor-client privilege. I have a passing understanding by a solicitor-client privilege — that between the govern- of that concept. I'm a lawyer. My client tells me some- ment of British Columbia and the lawyer who is paid for thing. Not a court in the land can compel me to disclose by the province to look after the interests of the province what my client's told me. That's the general proposition. with respect to Mr. Basi and Virk? Or is the solicitor-client I guess the simple question here is: who's the client and privilege what flows between the lawyer hired by the prov- who's the solicitor in this circumstance that prevents the ince, by Messrs. Basi and Virk directly, their clients? Attorney General from answering my questions? Where does the solicitor-client privilege apply? The [1945] public money gets paid out, and we can't ask any ques- tions about it because it's covered by solicitor-client Hon. B. Penner: As the member, I'm sure, will know, privilege. Now, where's the sense in that? I'm just asking the concept of solicitor-client privilege has been with us as an ordinary layperson, not as a lawyer, not wishing to for a long time, particularly in common-law societies. complicate this matter or refer to fine cases decided by I'm reminded this afternoon that the common-law the Master of the Rolls hundreds of years ago. principle of legal professional privilege was first re- I'm just asking a very simple question. How is it that corded, at least that we're aware of, in an English case we're in an arrangement where the Attorney General dating from 1577, known as Berd v. Lovelace. It's inter- can stand up and say it's covered by solicitor-client priv- esting to note that the full report — the full report; not ilege? I want to know: who's the client, who's the lawyer the head note, not the summary, but the full report — involved, and if the government's the lawyer, then why is as follows: were we acting? If not, why not? Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7621

It's a very straightforward proposition. Just explain Hon. B. Penner: To the member's question: I am to me in nice, simplistic terms that even a small, weak confident that the legal services branch lawyers, whose mind like mine can understand. How is it that this is advice I rely on in this matter, have thoroughly con- covered by solicitor-client privilege and that we can't get sidered and canvassed the extent of disclosure that can answers about the most significant corruption case in be made appropriately. I do not intend to extend that British Columbia's recent history and the government disclosure beyond which I understand to be the legal that has made a decision to write off legal fees? Why is extent permitted. solicitor-client privilege here preventing the Attorney The member, I think, is essentially asking at the end General from answering questions? of his question: "Do you see how this might not look [1950] good optically?" Yes, of course. Does it look good pol- itically? No, it does not. If anything, it proves the point Hon. B. Penner: As I indicated in my last answer, there that I've been making for more than three hours during are times when the government does enter into indemnity this debate — that elected people were not part of the arrangements to fund the legal fees for government em- decision-making process when it came to this indem- ployees for different matters. On the scope of that policy nity or, frankly, for the granting of indemnities to other or the state of that policy, I've asked Mr. Toope to review government employees. and make recommendations for the future to see whether As we discussed the last time we met, it's my view that and how it can be improved, both for civil and for crim- it's inappropriate for elected members to insert them- inal matters. I think that's important to look at. selves into the specifics of a particular prosecution — and As noted, when we're into an indemnity arrangement, probably a civil matter, but we're talking here about a the government is the funder. I talked about a third- criminal matter. When there's somebody's liberty at stake, party arrangement in my last answer. I'm advised, as I've I think that extra cautions have to be taken. explained to the member, that solicitor-client privilege But I do get the member's point that this does raise attaches in such circumstances to the particulars that be- questions, and those are the kinds of questions that I come known to the funder. That is the advice thatI 've been want Mr. Toope to answer as part of his review of the given from lawyers in the Ministry of Attorney General. indemnity policy in British Columbia and how it has It's my view that estimates debate is not the appropri- expanded over time, through practice in the 1990s for ate place to debate legal advice. If the member wishes the first time, as I understand it, for criminal matters, to pursue this debate, I guess, with me in the hallway, and apparently other matters as well. I've heard anec- that'd be fine, butI don't think it's really the proper place dotally that it may have been extended to professional in estimates debate. associations reviewing somebody's conduct for possible discipline. When you read the original written policy, L. Krog: I'm sure the Attorney General wasn't sug- that kind of application may seem surprising. gesting we step outside and settle this argument. So for those reasons, both myself and the Premier The province is the funder. The province puts up all have felt it appropriate that the policy be reviewed by Mr. of this money and, through that process, becomes privy Toope. If you read the terms of reference — I've quoted to certain pieces of information that may fall within from a few sections of it tonight — you'll see that it's a solicitor-client privilege. That is the Attorney General's pretty comprehensive review. We want to know: what is received advice from his staff. the policy? To whom does it apply? Where did it origin- The effect of that, the Attorney General would ac- ate? How did it develop over time, and what can be done knowledge…. Assuming the legal advice is correct for the future to make sure that it's fair? I'm also going — and I wouldn't dispute the fine people who work in to be interested to know how it compares to what's done the Attorney General's ministry as I'm sure they con- in other jurisdictions. sidered this question very, very carefully — if that is the I don't know what other provinces or other forms of advice, does the Attorney General agree that perhaps it government have done, either here in Canada or else- might not be the most appropriate policy? where in the Commonwealth, but I am interested to When two Liberal aides are charged with crimes of know. At this point I don't know, but I'm looking for- corruption, who aren't just ordinary public servants but ward to getting those answers from Mr. Toope. who actually work for ministers, who are Liberal appoin- tees — insiders, if I can use the language of the trade…. L. Krog: Well, I appreciate that the Attorney General Would he not agree that entering into a fee security ar- agrees it doesn't look that good. It doesn't look very rangement for them — about which the Attorney General good, particularly when you refer to the "Guarantees then, when it comes to the question of estimates, cannot and Indemnities Regulation," which indicates, on my answer any questions — perhaps might raise suspicion reading of it: "to an amount that exceeds $100,000 but in the public mind about this whole affair? does not exceed $1 million, if prior written approval of [1955] Treasury Board has been obtained, and (iii) to an amount 7622 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

that exceeds $1 million, or is unlimited, if prior written here's the relevant part — "the deputy or associate deputy approval of the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, after of the minister." That's 23(1) of the Interpretation Act. consultation with Treasury Board, is obtained." You need to have that in mind when you read section So can the minister assure the chair that, in fact, the 1(a) of the regulation that the member is referring to. appropriate authorization was obtained from either Regulation 1(a) says: "An indemnity may only be given Treasury Board or the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council by or on behalf of the government if (a) prior written ap- with respect to this indemnity, which clearly has ex- proval has been given by the Minister of Finance." ceeded a million dollars? If you weren't aware of the application of section [2000] 23(1) of the Interpretation Act, you might literally think that means only the Minister of Finance can enter into Hon. B. Penner: I'm just referring to a copy of the the nitty-gritty of an indemnity agreement, but by virtue regulation here. Can the member clarify which section of section 23(1) that means also the Deputy Minister of of the regulation he's referring to? Finance, when you read it in conjunction with this sec- tion in the regulation. L. Krog: The regulation provides, in regulation 1: "An It's my understanding that that's what took place — indemnity may only be given by or on behalf of the gov- that on the advice of the Deputy Attorney General of the ernment if (a) prior written approval has been given by day, the Deputy Minister of Finance of the day entered the Minister of Finance, or (b) the director of the Risk into the indemnity agreement. Management Branch of the Ministry of Finance, or a person specified…." L. Krog: I want to extend my gratitude to the Attorney It then goes off to talk about "Approval for indemni- General for this interesting legal dissertation tonight. It's ties on behalf of government corporations." It then talks always helpful and useful to learn such things. about "Approval for guarantees" and says: "A guarantee may only be given by or on behalf of the government…." Hon. B. Penner: Will it be recognized by the Law It goes through a long list and, in particular, 2(2)(ii) and Society as credits? 2(2)(iii). If that's referring only to corporate guarantees, then L. Krog: It's a very interesting question whether it we come back to the same proposition with respect to would be recognized by the Law Society as credits to- the approval of the Minister of Finance. So the basic wards maintaining the 12 hours required annually, but question is: who approved it? I'm not sure that it would, although I appreciate it's come from a very reliable and valuable source. Hon. B. Penner: It's my advice that section 2 of the Having said that, then, correct me if I'm wrong in my regulation does not apply here, as that pertains to guar- understanding of how government works, but I would antees. What we're talking about here is indemnities. presume that the Deputy Attorney General and the Deputy Minister of Finance report to the ministers in- L. Krog: Assuming that the Attorney General is cor- volved. So one would presume that in this circumstance, rect, and I'm sure he is, having the benefit of his ministry's when this indemnity was entered into, they in fact did advice, then was there the prior written approval given by report to the ministers of the day on this rather import- the Minister of Finance as required by section 1? ant indemnification arrangement. [2005] [2010]

Hon. B. Penner: As part of our continuing legal edu- Hon. B. Penner: The member is asking a question that cation program here tonight, I'll just refer to section doesn't pertain to not only this year's estimates or even 23(1). If only all continuing legal education seminars last year's estimates but the estimates for quite a number were as interesting as tonight's discussion. But I digress. of years ago. This matter that we're discussing — the Virk- Section 23(1) of the Interpretation Act is a very im- Basi matter — originated, if memory serves, in 2003 or portant bit of legislation. I think, indeed, some of my 2004, I believe. That's when I remember hearing about it colleagues will benefit from hearing this as well, because first. That's a long time ago. SoI can't speak with any speci- from time to time I do get asked questions about the ex- ficity to exactly who talked to who or what happened. act powers and roles of deputy ministers. I can say that it is the practice of the ministry that Section 23(1) of the Interpretation Act. I'll attempt when deciding whether or not to grant an indemnity, to retrieve from memory, sort of, and I'll quote as best I particularly in criminal matters, political direction is can. "Words in an enactment directing or empowering a not sought. This is a subject that we've canvassed fairly minister of the government to do something, or other- extensively in these estimates debates today and about wise applying to the minister by his or her name of office, two weeks ago now, I think. My expectation would be include a minister designated to act in the office and" — that no political direction was sought, because that's not Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7623

the practice of the ministry before entering into an in- ginal indemnity in this matter, the B.C. Rail corruption demnity agreement. trial and Basi and Virk, was entered into with the advice of the Deputy Attorney General. L. Krog: I appreciate the Attorney General's remarks, I'm going to assume, however, that it falls within the and this is a perfectly relevant question, then. It applies to Attorney General's ministry to provide legal advice to the current times. Given that we've drifted back toL ovelace Crown in all matters, which it does. That is its statutory and the Master of the Rolls and several hundred years, and historic obligation and the Attorney General's obliga- I'll try and bring us back to the present moment. tion. So again my question to the Attorney General is: is it If the policy is that the political input isn't sought to the policy of the Attorney General's ministry to advise and these decisions, presumably, however, the policy also respond to questions about the extent of the legal obliga- requires that, once the decision is made, it would be tions that may be contained in indemnity agreements? reported to the minister who is responsible for the min- [2020] istry. Correct? [2015] Hon. B. Penner: As the member will be aware, the Attorney General's ministry in essence acts as the in- Hon. B. Penner: Again, the challenge here is that the house counsel for government. Government itself is member is talking about a number of years ago. I do have very broad. the benefit of section 73 of the terms and conditions of The longerI 'm here as an MLA — and it's been 15 years employment for excluded employees, which lays out the already and counting…. And how many years…? written policy for the granting of indemnity. For any- one following this debate, the term "excluded employees" Interjection. generally refers to members outside the bargaining unit or non-union members or employees of government. Hon. B. Penner: Just about predates Lovelace. Some I don't see anything in the written policy that dictates days it feels like it. Anyway, threw me off topic, because or directs that the deputies advise their ministers when it's very pertinent. they have granted an indemnity to an employee. I'm ad- We do provide advice on a whole range of activities. vised that there is no such formal policy. The role of government is extremely broad in our society, Perhaps that is something that Mr. Toope can consider and I'm constantly reminded of that. Even today at din- in his review. The terms of reference for that review are ner I just heard of a matter that our ministry has been quite broad and ask him to make a number of recommen- called upon to give legal advice on which wouldn't have dations about, first of all, whether we should even be in the been something I would guess about. business of granting indemnity to government employees The short answer to the member. It's probably too for criminal matters, but if we are, then what changes or late for a short answer, but an answer to the mem- extra protections could or should be considered to better ber's question is: no, the minister is not informed every protect the interests of taxpayers while also recognizing time the ministry provides advice to another branch of that we want to be fair to employees. government. One division alone has almost 200 lawyers, the legal L. Krog: If I understand the minister's answer cor- services branch, whose job is to advise government rectly, what he's saying is that the present state of the law agencies on what they should do in terms of their legal in British Columbia dictates that if the Deputy Minister position. Some quick examples include child protec- of Finance, on the advice of the Deputy Attorney tion, proposed legislation, treaty negotiations, medical General, enters into an indemnity agreement, that in- treatment issues like the Insite facility in downtown demnity agreement can be unlimited, and they don't Vancouver. It's a very live issue, and we've just recently have to report to the minister that they've entered into been in the Supreme Court of Canada arguing a consti- that arrangement. tutional division-of-powers issue there — and a Charter of Rights issue, too, if I'm not mistaken. Hon. B. Penner: I note that what the member is ask- That all falls under the Ministry of Attorney General. ing me is what policies might apply within the Ministry Then, of course, we have hundreds of additional lawyers of Finance, because we're talking about what decisions toiling away every day in the criminal justice branch. the Deputy Minister of Finance may or may not make From time to time they will come up with advice and pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, which recommendations for criminal law reform, possible rests with the Ministry of Finance. changes to the Criminal Code. I've benefited from their advice in my short tenure as Attorney General. L. Krog: I rather thought I might get that response I know that's a lengthy answer, but I'm trying to set from the Attorney General, notwithstanding that he did the context here, that in reality, the minister is not ad- indicate earlier that the advice with respect to the ori- vised every time the ministry provides advice to another 7624 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

branch of government, because I suspect that happens tonight and what is contained in the specific consider- multiple times every day. ations of the direction, that in fact Mr. Toope will be able to suss out answers relating to the case of Messrs. L. Krog: Perhaps we can come at this from a some- Basi and Virk? what different angle. The minister, during the last day [2030] we had occasion to deal with his estimates, talked about the written policy relating to indemnity. He said that Hon. B. Penner: I believe that Mr. Toope will have it relates to civil litigation and non-criminal matters the discretion to do what the member is suggesting, at only and then went on to state: "Over the last couple of least based on my interpretation of specific considera- decades it appears the policy has been expanded on a tion 7. I just quoted that in its entirety in my last answer, case-by-case basis." but I'll just quote a portion of it here for emphasis: "…to I'm just wondering if the minister can indicate: are understand the evolution and application of the policy, there any other cases where it has been expanded to in- as well as the circumstances in which the policy has volve people who plead guilty to criminal offences? been previously applied." [2025] L. Krog: I sense an interest in the Attorney General Hon. B. Penner: The member asks a very pertinent tonight, from his remarks and his remarks the other day, question, and the very short answer is: I don't know. It to get to the bottom of this case, which has been, I can is something, though, that I'm hoping to find out, and assure him — and I state the obvious — an embarrass- it's one of the things, I suspect, that Mr. Toope will be ment for this government and certainly what is viewed considering. In the terms-of-reference document, again, as scandalous by the people of British Columbia — that just to quote from that: two Liberal insiders would have their legal fees waived "This review is to consider the rationale for the policy, the his- and the taxpayers stuck with the bill. tory of the development of the policy, how it has been applied in But just to remove any possibility of doubt in the the past and the need for indemnity agreements from a public administration perspective." public mind, is the Attorney General, given that these Under "Specific Considerations," item 2: are his directions and he has set up this process with "In the criminal context the review should consider whether Mr. Toope, prepared to specifically direct Mr. Toope in there are circumstances in which it is appropriate for government writing to investigate quite specifically the indemnity ar- rather than the public servant to bear the legal costs involved and, rangements involving Messrs. Basi and Virk? if so, provide policy guidance regarding both the circumstances and the approach — for example, whether there should be an indemnity or reimbursement and, if indemnity, whether, upon a Hon. B. Penner: Mr. Toope has accepted this review, guilty plea or conviction, repayment should be required." this assignment without remuneration. As I think both That's germane to the member's question. the member and I agree, there is significant latitude in In addition, specific consideration 7 indicates: the terms of reference for Mr. Toope to consider. I'm not "The reviewer is at liberty to consult with any part of govern- sure it would be appropriate for me to fetter his discre- ment, including the legal services branch, the Public Service tion as he conducts an independent review. Agency and the risk management branch, to understand the evo- lution and application of the policy, as well as the circumstances in which the policy has been previously applied." L. Krog: I must say, that answer was worth sitting I think this is one of the areas where we may stand to here tonight to listen to it. I'm not asking the Attorney gain some additional information from the review that General to fetter Mr. Toope's discretion. I'm, in fact, ask- Mr. Toope has undertaken. ing him to give Mr. Toope some direction that may assist him in focusing in on what is the most important aspect L. Krog: I very much appreciate the Attorney General's of all of this that has led to the Attorney General ap- response. I take it from his answer that he can't tell me pointing Mr. Toope, and that is the B.C. Rail corruption tonight. It's not that he won't. He can't tell me tonight of trial and what flows from it. any other cases where a person who was covered by the So, again, my question is quite simply this: will the indemnity policy, loose as it is, and who pled guilty or Attorney General give some specific direction? By giv- was found guilty, has ever had their legal fees waived. I ing that specific direction to Mr. Toope to investigate take it that's the Attorney General's answer. this particular matter, he will not only relieve the gov- I am very interested, however, in the further part of ernment of a cloud of scandal that hangs over its head his response, where he talks about Mr. Toope having the to this day; he will relieve the cloud of scandal that sur- authority to review both the history of the policy and rounds the decisions that were made surrounding this specific examples.I presume that would include the B.C. whole arrangement, which would surely be beneficial Rail case and Messrs. Basi and Virk. to public confidence in the justice system, public con- Am I correct in my interpretation that Mr. Toope, fidence in the Attorney General himself and public based on what the Attorney General has said here confidence in the government. Monday, May 30, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7625

Again, my question is quite simply this: why would the L. Krog: I thank you. The Attorney General is too Attorney General not want to give direction to Mr. Toope kind, too kind. Perhaps it's the hour. so that Mr. Toope could investigate this matter quite spe- Why would he not simply wish to send a specific dir- cifically, as opposed to setting him out there like a sheep ection that was publicly available, which would provide in the field and letting him graze wherever he wanted the assurance to the public that this matter is going to and come back with his belly full of whatever he wished, be appropriately investigated? I mean, the Attorney as opposed to coming back with something that might General found it appropriate, after due consideration, actually be useful to the taxpayers? to appoint Mr. Toope. And although I appreciate that [2035] he is working without remuneration, he nevertheless can add this as a significant feather in his cap, if you Hon. B. Penner: I'm sure the member wasn't intend- will. It would represent a fine act of public service to ing to compare Mr. Toope to a sheep with his comments. undertake it, and I'm sure those are the conditions I'm sure he wasn't intending to be disrespectful, particu- under which he undertook it. larly to a gentleman who is doing this work, in effect, I expect and trust Mr. Toope to perform admirably pro bono for the people of the province. in this job, but what is the problem with giving him a I just want to read this into the record again: "The re- specific direction to investigate the indemnity arrange- view is to consider the rationale for the policy, the history ments with Messrs. Basi and Virk and report back to of the development of the policy, how it has been applied the Attorney General? That report is to be made pub- in the past and the need for indemnity arrangements from lic under the terms of the referral. What is the problem a public administration perspective." As already noted, with that, and why would the Attorney General simply specific consideration 7 gives latitude to Mr. Toope, in not commit tonight to doing that? this case the reviewer, "to understand the evolution and [2040] application of the policy, as well as the circumstances in which the policy has been previously applied." Hon. B. Penner: As I have noted already, Mr. Toope It is entirely within Mr. Toope's discretion how he wants has already agreed to undertake this review based on to pursue this indemnity review that I am looking forward the terms of reference as written. That review is now to receiving the benefits of. My understanding is that the underway, as I understand it, without remuneration for review is now underway. It has been launched, and I look Mr. Toope for his efforts. forward to the report coming forward in due course. However, as the member has noted…. It's the mem- If the member is worried that Mr. Toope may not ber's view, as I take it, that as he reads the terms the understand the sentiments of either himself or myself reference, it is broad enough for Mr. Toope to look into or, I guess, as we represent the public, the public's per- this or other matters that attract his interest as he deter- spective, I will endeavour to send him a copy of this mines how this policy "has been applied in the past," to discussion, a transcript of this debate tonight, so he can quote from the document itself. take into consideration the views of the member and I think the terms of reference do give the latitude that myself as we've debated this matter at length. the member is suggesting, but it also gives Mr. Toope some discretion. I hope that the member is not express- L. Krog: The last thingI 'd do is compare the president ing, in an implied way, a lack of confidence or trust in and vice-chancellor of the University of British Columbia, the judgment of Mr. Toope. who is in a pay grade far above everybody in this room, to a sheep. L. Krog: I appreciate the Attorney General may wig- Having said that, I can't imagine why the Attorney gle around this as much as he wants, but broad terms General would find it difficult to simply send a letter of and general direction often do not result in specific an- direction. The practice is with the appointment of special swers. As John Maynard Keynes once said about money: prosecutors…. I notice the presence of Mr. Gillen here to- "Everyone's in favour of general economy and specific ex- night, who fulfils that role admirably for the province of penditure." I want to get to the specifics, if I can. British Columbia — appointing special prosecutors. The The fact is that Mr. Toope could hand back a ten-page only time the Attorney General interferes with that, it is a report, admirably wonderful in its content, and not deal in direction that has to be published and is publicly available. any particular way with Messrs. Basi and Virk, and that re- Again, my question to the Attorney General: rather port would, based on its general terms, probably meet the than send him a transcript — certainly, speaking from direction of the Attorney General as it exists now. my half of the evening's events, a boring transcript — He'd be quite fair and honest and would have per- why would he not wish to give him…? Speaking from formed his duty in doing that, but that does not satisfy my half, I didn't…. the issue that is in the minds of British Columbians, which is the case involving Messrs. Basi and Virk. So Hon. B. Penner: You're selling yourself short. again, as part of this, why not allay public concern and 7626 British Columbia Debates Monday, May 30, 2011

simply give a specific direction to consider that specific use a more casual phrase — and to try and apply some case as part of the mandate? lessons here about how we could better protect taxpay- It may be implied, it may be suggested, and it may be ers while still, and I want to stress this, being reasonably possible for him under these broad terms to come to that fair to government employees. conclusion. But there is no guarantee, and there is no re- quirement, and there is no language in this document that L. Krog: I am aware of two specific cases where this specifically requires him to do so. So why not simply give policy has been applied. One is former Premier Glen that direction? What possible harm will result from the Clark, who was found not guilty, and the case of Mr. Attorney General giving that direction to Mr. Toope? Basi and Mr. Virk. Is the Attorney General aware of any other situations involving criminal charges and public Hon. B. Penner: To be clear with the member, this is servants where the policy has been applied? not specifically a Basi-Virk inquiry. This is a review of the government's indemnity policy. It started originally, The Chair: Attorney General, and noting the hour. in writing, as a policy related to civil proceedings. Over time it morphed. To use a somewhat unscientific term, it Hon. B. Penner: I am aware that there is at least one morphed. From what I've read publicly, it appears that it other instance where indemnity has been extended in was applied in criminal matters for the first time in the criminal matters. There may be others thatI don't know 1990s without the foundation of a clear written policy. about. We have indicated in the terms of reference for [2045] Mr. Toope's review of the policy that he can have access My concerns extend well beyond the Virk-Basi mat- to, in essence, our files and see what he can find going ter when it comes to indemnity policy, because it's been back in time to see how the policy has been applied. I applied in a variety of forms, some of which I've already look forward to that work coming forward from Mr. discussed over the last three or four hours. It's been ex- Toope to tell us more about how this policy may have tended to employment situations, it's been extended in been applied in the past, particularly in relation to crim- lawsuits, and it's been extended, obviously, in criminal inal matters. matters. It's been extended in situations where legal fees Again, I want to say this. I'm also very curious to may not have been paid at the end. know whether such an approach is taken by other prov- My concern about the state of the policy is pretty inces, the federal government or other countries. I say broad. That's why I asked for this review. It's about the that very sincerely, because I honestly do not know the state of the indemnity policy generally. What can be answer to that and it's something that I'm anxious to done? Should it even exist in criminal matters? I mean, learn about. it's not in writing, but it's been applied in criminal mat- Mr. Chair, you have indicated it's that time to note the ters. How should it operate in the future? We can't turn hour. Therefore, I move that the committee rise, report back the clock and undo the decision upon which a case progress on the Ministry of Attorney General and seek was concluded, but I think we can learn lessons about leave to sit again. how to better apply the policy in the future. That's why the terms of reference are crafted the way Motion approved. that they are: to give Mr. Toope the latitude required to take a look at how this policy evolved — or morphed, to The committee rose at 8:49 p.m. Hansard Production

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