JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2015 39/01 US $7 CAN $9 UK £6 EU €8 Architecture and Design special issue The Stubbornness of Space ART PAPERS Between 1977 and 1979, the architect est chairs. It had a marvelous spring system Gordon Bunschaft American, 1909–1990. and later TED founder Richard Saul which has never quite been equaled. We An architect at the firm The Transcripts Wurman, the late graphic designer were never able to produce it in the begin- Skidmore, Owings & Merrill, Massimo Vignelli, and longtime Knoll ning because the steel that was needed was 1937–1979, Bunschaft was the principle designer of margot weller executive Christine Rae conducted not available. It was wartime. the Lever House (1952) and interviews with some 60 figures from I was working in an architectural office would become a champion Knoll’s first 40 years. They spoke both here in … having just come from of International Style archi- tecture in the United States. to major protagonists — such as the the Illinois Institute of Technology where I He received the Pritzker 50 company’s founders and chief design- had gotten my architectural51 education with Prize in 1988. The story of midcentury ers — as well as to executives, clients, Mies van der Rohe. I was working in archi- in America is inconceivable without Knoll, and factory operators. The transcripts, tectural offices here in the city and started American, born 1917. Flor- the furnishings and textiles originally destined for an A-to-Z com- moonlighting, in a sense, doing these extra ence Knoll Bassett (née company founded by Hans pendium, were ultimately excerpted and jobs on my own time, for Hans as an interior Schust) helped establish Knoll as a design pow- Knoll in 1938, and joined by appear sparingly in the 1981 book Knoll space planner and designer. erhouse and gave it its Florence Knoll (née Schust) Design, edited by Eric Larrabee and Before that, I had been at Cranbrook. comprehensive approach in 1941. With Knoll’s gener- Massimo Vignelli. There were many people there, it was a fan- to interiors. Leading the ous per-mission, photo- company alongside Hans graphs from its archives and What follows are selections from an tastic group. Charlie Eames was there, Eero from 1943 until his untimely unpublished interviews with oral history, told by some of the 20th [Saarinen] and people like Ed Bacon, who death in 1955, and then the designers in the compa- century’s great designers, that maps was a fantastic city planner of Philadelphia; alone until her retirement in 1965, Florence Knoll ny’s orbit set these figures a network of their close-knit personal , an excellent architect from in dialogue — capturing and championed young design- ers, created the company’s complicating the making of a and professional relationships. Their ; Ben Baldwin, an excellent interior accounts are illuminating, critical, and planner. It was a diverse and very interesting famous Planning Unit as an modern legend. interiors consultation ser- sometimes conflicting; taken together, group. was there. He came as vice, and designed several as the editors note, they are “often a silversmith. He gradually got involved, as classics as well. Rashomonesque,” with “moments of everyone did at Cranbrook, in all forms of Harry Bertoia classic tragedy, failure, and success.” design. American, born Italy, To immerse oneself in Knoll’s origin 1915–1978. An artist, stories is, they write, “to experience HARRY BERTOIA sculptor, and metalworker, Bertoia studied at Cran- the zeitgeist of the last forty years of My first encounter with Shu was at Cran- brook before setting up Margot Weller The Knoll Transcripts Knoll The Weller Margot design accomplishment and growth in brook. It occurred at ’s home. his own metal workshop there in 1939. After a America.” I was a student, and since the student body brief period working with was perhaps thirty-five at that time, naturally classmate , you met everyone. My meeting with Shu was Bertoia went on commis- GORDON BUNSCHAFT sion for Hans and Florence kind of marvelous. When I entered the home, Knoll, founding a studio in I first met Hans Knoll when he came into our she was reclining on a big beautiful Saarinen in 1950, and office at 5 East 57th, I think in the winter of sofa. It was a brief encounter. She was a stu- ultimately creating his iconic 1937. He was just in from Germany and was dent in, I think, both architecture and design. collection of wire furniture. selling a special flat spring for upholstered That was my first contact with what later Peter Blake seats. I was new and our office had just became Knoll. American, born Germany, 1920–2006. Critic, archi- started and we were interested in furniture tect, and editor-in-chief of for buildings at the World’s Fair in New York PETER BLAKE Architectural Forum, 1965– in 1938–39. I told him we weren’t interested About the beginning of 1943, I came to New 1972. As a curator in the newly united Department in springs, we were interested in seats. He York and went to work as a junior writer for of Architecture and Design was a young fellow, very blonde, very enthu- Architectural Forum. One day, Howard My- at the Museum of Modern siastic, just beginning. ers, who was the editor and publisher, told Art, 1948–1950, Blake or- ganized with Philip Johnson Later, 1939 or ’40, I was out in Chicago me that he was friendly with a man named the 1949 presentation of staying at the Stevens Hotel and I used Hans Knoll who was making some new furni- a suburban demonstration to see this lady in the dining room, who … ture out of parachute webbing and whatever home designed by , dubbed The House turned out to be Shu [Florence] Knoll. I never wood he could lay his hands on. Howard in the Museum Garden. spoke to her there, but I met her later in New suggested I go over and meet him. I went to

The Stubbornness of Space Architecture and Design special issue special Design and Architecture Space of Stubbornness The York, about 1941, when she was working the showroom at 58th and Madison, a funny American, 1908–1986. for Hans. He had developed a showroom little building, and met Hans. He showed me An industrial designer, Florence Knoll, ca. 1948 on Madison and she was working there as a the chairs he was making at that time, which, architect, and prolific writer, [all images courtesy of Nelson left a legacy visible Knoll, Inc.] designer. to the best of my knowledge, were designed at all scales — from the by Jens Risom. Hans and I hit it off right Marshmallow Sofa to the FLORENCE KNOLL away. pedestrian mall. Nelson My relationship with the company started served as the associate edi- tor and later co-managing during the war with some special interiors GEORGE NELSON editor of Architectural Fo- for Hans Knoll, who was just starting out in I first saw him about 1940 or so. I was rum magazine, 1935–1944. the business here in New York. He had one working at the top of the old Time and He was the first director of design at Herman Miller, good chair that he brought over from Ger- Life building and we were on a balcony. I 1947–1972. Hans Knoll many … the design is no longer in existence. remember Hans huffing his way up with a I don’t think there are any photographs of it. chair of Risom’s on his back. I remember a It’s a shame, because it is still one of the fin- moment when he showed me a check from Florence Knoll and with The Planning Unit existed because of my the pedestal base, background in architecture. It was the very ca. 1955 first furniture company [that] ever had a plan- ning department. This came from my special interests. Expansion came from Hans … who was an empire builder.

PETER BLAKE 52My first impression of Hans was that he was 53 very generous, very sweet, a very intense man. He never stopped working. He worked night and day. In fact, he had just started liv- ing with Shu and they were working togeth- Herbert Matter some [government department] for, I think, er. Very soon the three of us became close American, born Switzerland, 1907–1984. Employed $26,000, which in those days looked like friends. I would leave the office and the three by Condé Nast, Harper’s the national debt. He didn’t want to cash it of us would go out to dinner, then go to [the Bazaar, New Haven Rail- and Xerox was not around then. jazz nightclub] Café Society Uptown. We road, and the Guggenheim, among others, Herbert Mat- When I signed up with Herman Miller were together two or three times a week. ter was at the center of a about 1945 or 1946, I remember Hans Hans and Shu had this enormous sheep group of European émigrés coming by; and he was angry at me be- dog. He appears in the early Herbert Mat- who defined the look of graphic design in America, cause I had signed up with Herman Miller. ter ads. He was unbelievable. He slept on both through his design This struck me as odd because he had the fire escape outside their apartment, on work and his teaching at never invited me to do anything. Sutton Place. One of the last things that hap- Yale University. Matter shaped Knoll’s graphic pened to me at the end of the war in Europe identity over a span of 20 FLORENCE KNOLL was meeting this Romanian officer wearing years beginning in 1946. Many of the designs that he had at that time an enormous sheepskin coat. I bought it from were ones that I did not approve of. I felt him, brought it back to America and gave it they were too romantic and didn’t quite fit to Hans as a gift. He wore that coat while in with my ideas. They were Scandinavian. walking that huge dog and they looked like I suggested to him that he try to find other two dogs walking down the street. Transcripts Knoll The Weller Margot designers to work with him. That’s how the thing started. HERBERT MATTER I was in California in 1945. One day Hans wrote a letter and said he would like to see me and he came to California. Actually, the first few ads were done by Alvin Lustig. I really don’t know how he heard about me. He knew about Eames, perhaps he heard about that. So Hans came to Santa Monica to see me [and] Shu came also. Somehow I decided I would come back to New York and I would come to see him and start to work. As a company, I had never heard of it before. When we came back to New York in 1946, I started to work right away. First was the trademark, then some booklets and ads, especially the catalogues.

FLORENCE KNOLL We had various designers in New York

working on our ads — Alvin Lustig, who has issue special Design and Architecture Space of Stubbornness The since died, and Paul Horan, and I never liked what they did. I was completely dissatis- fied. Their work just seemed frivolous or not strong enough. I had seen some of Herbert Matter’s work and decided it was what I wanted. I flew out to California. He was working with Charlie Eames on furniture and Herbert Matter ad for Eero graphics. I went out to see him about doing Saarinen’s Grasshopper Chair, our ads. He said yes, he was very interested. featuring the Knoll dog Cartree I think it was just the thing he needed, he Alvin Lustig ad for Jens Risom wanted to come back east. That’s how it all lounge chair in Arts started, and we worked together beauti- & Architecture Magazine, 1945 fully. We were doing many, many years ago Herbert Matter’s “chimney sweep” whole period in my life was exciting because ad for Eero I had gone in the wrong direction. I had gone Saarinen’s Womb Chair, ca. 1955. two years to Engineering School and was The ad ran on very unhappy with that. When I got to the the inside front cover of The New Institute of Design, I really liked it. We were Yorker’s anniver- sary edition from very conscious in that school of being an 1958 to 1971 extension of the . 54 55HERBERT MATTER I was in Basel in a railroad station and sud- denly a chimney sweep on his bicycle passed by and made a very strong impression. When I was back here and thinking about an ad, it came to my mind. At that time, Martha Kai worked in the Promotion Department so I worked with her. Through her connections, she knew a Shakespearean actor … so we chose him to be the chimney sweep and he was wonderful. We used him afterwards as a juggler too, the one who juggles three chairs. Hans was really excited when I showed him, and Shu was absolutely against it. She did not think it was dignified. This was not ex- actly her idea of an ad. The ad was received very well. I think it was probably the most striking ad we did.

FLORENCE KNOLL Richard Schultz the thing that is now such great fashion, We saw Eero constantly, of course. He was Margot Weller The Knoll Transcripts Knoll The Weller Margot American, born 1926. Rich- like my brother and we talked a lot in those ard Schultz participated in namely graphics in interiors. The showrooms and earned mention in one were done in combination. We designed days. One thing led to another [in] the devel- of the Museum of Modern it together in the sense that we had a wall opment of the furniture. His first one was in Art’s many Good Design competitions in the 1950s. made of string. He designed the string thing laminated wood because we weren’t able A crucial member of the and I designed the structure for it. In the to get other materials. That was a perfectly Bertoia team at Knoll, he showroom on Madison Avenue, we created nice chair, but it wasn’t one of the great suc- was tapped to develop several outdoor designs to a space in the entrance where the big case cesses. I don’t know what it was called. It complement the wire-form became a whole wall of design. I consulted was the only laminated wood chair he did. chairs. His 1966 “Leisure him about colors for the showrooms and we Then the advent of fiberglass came Collection” of outdoor furniture — initiated at the worked together. along. Eero was working on that approach; request of Florence Knoll but — this all sounds simple now — in those for her Florida home — is a RICHARD SCHULTZ days, it was very, very difficult. We finally modern classic. We used to go over to the Knoll showroom found a ship builder in New Jersey and he as students and turn the chairs over and look was working in fiberglass. We got excited at them. It was an exciting period — 1949 about it and Eero developed the Womb or 1950 — just after the war when every- Chair. This was at my specific request be- thing was starting to move. Eero’s Womb cause I was sick and tired of these chairs that Chair — the whole thing was exciting. That held you in one position. We were just bowled

The Mies van der Rohe Collection The Stubbornness of Space Architecture and Design special issue special Design and Architecture Space of Stubbornness The

Herbert Matter advertise- ment, ca. 1948, featuring his logotype for the company, created the year prior I said, “she has an Italian name, Francesca. ROBERT VENTURI We called her Cesca.” He said, “let’s call the It seems to me I’ve always known about other chairs Cesca.” “Then these benches,” Knoll and Knoll has always been there, which he said. “Do you have a nickname?” I said, is a little surprising for someone for my “Marcel I use officially, my middle name is generation. They were beginning when I was Lajkó.” We called the benches Lajkó. He beginning to get interested in architecture. I misunderstood the name and in the cata- probably first heard about them when I was logues he used something like Lefco. That’s working at Saarinen’s in the late forties. 56 how the chairs got their names. 57 Our reaction is one of much less obvious unity … this connects with complexity and FLORENCE KNOLL contradiction. It also connects with a variety If you look at Herman Miller’s and Knoll’s of symbolisms we now allow. We now say work, not now but earlier, they took one taste is relative. We read Herb Gann and approach and we took another. Ours was agree with him that there are a number of based on planning, [which] was due to me. taste cultures. There is not just one taste cul- I saw the development of furniture in sense ture, which is the idea, which is usually upper of need. Charlie Eames and George Nelson middle class taste. There is upper middle, saw it more in the sense of an individual lower middle, upper lower, etc. We also say piece. When I say need, I mean for a total that we react against the forced simplicity of job. I would say to Eero, for example, “There modern architecture. All I’m leading up to is … Marcel Breuer’s daughter Cesca seated in the isn’t a decent office chair, swivel chair, we when we do a building we do not expect the eponymous chair [photo: need one. That’s what we must do.” I felt the obvious conformity between the architecture John Naar] need for a nice, big, curling-up chair because and the interior design based on these two there wasn’t one on the market. Charlie things: [one, that] architecture should be designed a chair from the same interest, of complex and contradictory, and two, [that] it Marcel Breuer over by it. We were so excited. Eero did this GORDON BUNSCHAFT course, but they designed more as individual also can involve several taste cultures. You American, born Hungary, pieces rather than as a cohesive thing for a can even mix taste cultures. It can happen in 1902–1981. Bauhaus chair and he did this prototype. He used his I don’t know exactly what Mies thought student and teacher, own office as the research lab in Bloomfield about the importance of furniture, but he had whole job. the landscape and it should and can happen architect, and furniture Hills. We’d go out every weekend or as often designed these marvelous pieces and, as a in your own living room with furniture. In gen- designer Marcel Breuer Transcripts Knoll The Weller Margot GEORGE NELSON immigrated to the United as we could to watch him. We’d try the seat- result of the war and other things, nothing eral, our approach has been that we assume States in 1937. Several of ing positions and experiment. I said I wanted had been done with them. The first I heard Recently, I heard some gossip that Herman our interiors were not so controlled. We have his furniture designs were a chair that was like a basket full of pillows. of it, Hans and Shu invited my wife and I to a Miller had been asked to interest itself in ac- done interiors where we mix an antique with acquired by the company in 1968 with its acquisition of Well, it didn’t quite turn out that way, but I Sunday lunch at the Plaza with Mies. It was a quiring Knoll. I think that would be the worst very good 18th-century reproductions with Italian manufacturer Gavina wanted something I could curl up in. marvelous time. He was a very quiet man and thing that could possibly happen, because Knoll International and classic modern. SpA. Breuer probably first Eero Saarinen and I went out to New Jer- we didn’t really talk about furniture. He likes the co-existence of Miller and Knoll is what We are doing a line of upholstered and encountered Florence Knoll when she worked under sey to beg this ship builder to make us some to talk about marble and was a great lover really puts both of them on their toes. We non-upholstered furniture — chairs, desks, . models. He was very skeptical. Mr. Winter of marble and onyx. Knoll had the original were always designing to each other. We and things. Essentially, it will be what I was was his name. We just begged him. I guess drawings, and Hans gave me a set because wanted the audience to like what we were saying before, [that] we are modern archi- Robert Venturi American, born 1925. we were so young and so enthusiastic that I wanted to make a chair myself. The chair saying, but we were really playing to our peer tects but we are also eclectics and that is our Venturi has collaborated he finally gave in and worked with us. We was too big for chroming so I have the only group. It was so strong it was almost as if it approach to it. with his partner Denise had lots of problems and failures until they chair that got as far as nickel plating, but didn’t matter if one got a market or not. Scott Brown for more than 50 years. Known for their finally got a chair that would work. never chromed. The steel chairs Mies origi- creative interpretations nally made are mortised at the corners with Robert Venturi with the of history and classicism, GEORGE NELSON flush screws, so I had three made that way. Venturi Collection, 1984 Venturi and Brown are champions of pop and post- We had been working on chairs and chair The leather straps I had made by a harness modernism, authoring the bases and at some point we got to the man. This was prior to being put on the manifestos Complexity and pedestal base. We had a base, full size, in market. Knoll in turn developed it and made Contradiction in Architec- ture, published by MoMA clay or plaster and were fooling with it. To it in stainless, which I don’t think was done in 1966, and Learning from our dismay, Eero’s first pedestal chair ap- originally. They still make it properly and with Las Vegas (1972). peared either in a showroom or a magazine. I great care.

took a picture of the shop with the pedestal issue special Design and Architecture Space of Stubbornness The base and sent it to Eero saying, “You won.” MARCEL BREUER A telegram came back saying, “Well, I’ll be The naming of furniture is a general principle darned.” We withdrew it right away because in industry. The automobiles all have names. it would have looked like a knock-off. Eero’s Once, when I talked with [Dino] Gavina, he pedestal was a hell of a lot more elegant than said, “We should have a name for this.” This

our pedestal. was in the sixties. I said, “[All right], what kind Margot Weller is an The real difference between Knoll and of name do you suggest?” He said you told Associate Strategist Miller, I felt, was the Knoll stuff was really a me once that Wassily Kandinsky was the at the design firm 2×4. She has worked super elegant level of taste. This was Shu very first person who saw the first experi- as a researcher mostly, maybe Hans. The wire chairs of mental chair.” I said, “that’s true and he is a at Knoll and as a Charlie’s look good and pretty, but that arm good friend of mine.” He said, “why don’t we Curatorial Assistant in the Department chair of Harry’s with those pointed ends was call it the Wassily?” Then he said, “you have of Architecture and really exquisitely beautiful. a daughter don’t you. What is her name?” Design at MoMA.