Filmmaker and Activist Nadine Labaki: Resilience and Revolution in Lebanon INDAGARE GLOBAL CONVERSATIONS | 1.09

Melissa Biggs Bradley Hi and welcome to Indagare Global Conversations, a podcast about how traveling the world shapes our lives and perspectives. I'm Melissa Biggs Bradley of Indagare, a company I founded on the belief that how you travel matters. I'm sitting down with some of the most inspiring and innovative people I've met while on the road. They are activists and conservationists, designers and filmmakers, writers, chefs and entrepreneurs. They will share stories about their travels and how they lead lives of passion and purpose. They inspire me, as I hope they will you. Welcome to the conversation.

In this episode, I'm speaking with a Lebanese filmmaker, actor and activist, Nadine Labaki. When I first met Nadine in Beirut, back when I was scouting for one of Indagare’s Insider Journeys to Lebanon, I'd already seen all of her movies. She's arguably the country's most famous actress. But when we met, she had just returned from Cannes, where she'd been celebrated as a director. This was in 2019 and she had just won the Jury Prize for the first film that she directed -- Capernaum. It was also later nominated for an Academy Award for Best Foreign Film. It's a deeply moving story about the Syrian refugee crisis, but one that examines the global issues of migrants and of social responsibility. I highly recommend that you watch it in addition to listening to this interview with her, because both illuminate why activism is critical for all of us, as well as what a powerful storyteller Nadine is. She is truly a force to be reckoned with. Equal parts artist and activist, which I find often go hand in hand with people who create some of the most exciting, challenging and ultimately thought provoking works. I spoke with Nadine as Lebanon was on total lockdown and she talked a lot about what it means to be an artist at this moment, but also why Lebanon forges particularly passionate artists always and also why she believes it is so important to elevate and amplify marginalized voices and stories as she does in her films.

Let's start with where you are and what lockdown in Beirut looks like. You know, who you're with and how your routines have changed. What is Lebanon like during all of this?

Nadine Labaki I'm here with my family and I have two kids. I have a daughter who is four years old and a son who is eleven years old and my husband. So we're here at, you know, the apartment in Beirut. We're trying to cope. We’re like everyone else. Not always easy, but for me, it's a chance to really just calm down a little bit, spend time as much as I can, you know, with my children, understanding more and more how they think, who they are, their personalities. Of course, I know all of that. But it is an opportunity to dig even deeper because we can spend so much more time with them. And I'm really enjoying that. I really am, really enjoying that.

MBB And what are the conditions overall in the country like? I mean, how are you managing and how have you observed that others are coping?

NL The situation in Lebanon is really difficult. You know, I'm lucky. And we’re one of the ones, you know, lucky ones that we are able to stay at home, we don't need to go out to work or to sustain our family or to be able to, you know, provide for the family. We are able to stay home. The majority of the Lebanese population, unfortunately, is now living under the poverty line. Not the majority. But, you know, almost half the population, a million and two hundred thousand people are living under the poverty line. And most of them have to work to be able to sustain themselves and provide for their families. And the situation is very difficult. The lockdown is really hard for a lot of people, but there's been a huge wave of people helping each other. People really standing for each other. And lots of great initiatives for many people to help some families stay home by providing food or providing, you know, whatever thing they can provide to help in this situation. So there's this wave of people really trying to help each other out, to support each other out. And it's amazing -- this humanity that is coming out of this crisis and that is proving once more how much at the end of the day, this is it; this is what’s going to help us in surviving anything that might happen. It’s really us standing next to each other as human beings and just understanding one more, being more and more tolerant and understanding how fortunate also our lives are, how fortunate we are to be able to just go through this without having to go out. So it's...it's not easy. It's not easy. So we're really trying...we have tried to also collaborate in certain initiatives because, of course, when you and you are able to, as an artist, to...I don't know, talk about it through a piece of art or talk about it through a small video, a small clip or whatever, it always helps. So that's what also we're trying to do as much as we can.

MBB So I know you grew up in Beirut during the Civil War. Correct?

NL Yes, I did.

MBB And I imagine that in some ways that means that many people in Beirut are more accustomed to going through something very difficult than others in a lot of the rest of the world are. Do you find that some of the resilience in the Lebanese people from past experiences is serving them in this particular time?

NL Yes, definitely. I think we have the right reflexes because of the war. So we’ve had to live in confinement for such a long time during the war and we had to find ways to survive and to be able...even to find sometimes joy and to find humor, to find ways to just, you know, survive the situation. I think we have this resilience in us as Lebanese. We've always known how to just keep going no matter what. And it's part of our personality. It's not always positive. You know, sometimes you tend to become more...I don't know how you say it...nonchalant. I don't know if that’s how you can say it...regarding...you don't do long term plans because you don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow. You don’t know what tomorrow is going to look like, you don't know if you're going to be even alive the next day. So you tend to improvise, improvise a lot and not plan a lot because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. So, but we've always found ways to survive somehow. And again, we have the same reflexes now. So we’re used to confinement, we’re used to staying behind closed doors for a long period of time. And I also see, you know, lots of positive aspects to what is happening. I think this is sort of a wakeup call. And we can’t keep on living the way we are living. Our systems are failing in every way. Everybody is talking about this wake up call. And I think this is the end of a certain kind of world and it's the birth of a new world, a new way of living, an alternative way of living. We’re going to have to rethink everything. And I and I, I'm very hopeful for the future. I'm really hopeful for the future, because, of course, we're going to go through rough times. It's going to be maybe a few years that are going to be truly difficult. But I'm sure that, you know, something positive is going to come out of it. Nature is very clever in that way.

MBB Definitely. And I feel similarly hopeful in that we will come out of this period stronger than before. But I want to talk about your career a bit. Was there a specific film that inspired you to become a filmmaker?

NL There isn't one specific film. You know, growing up during the war, again, we were confined and the boredom was a big part of our lives as children because we couldn't go outside or couldn't play outside. We were, you know, confined behind sandbags most of our childhood. And I think that because of, you know, TV started becoming a very important part of my life. The TV set and wherever we had the power, because most of the time there was no power, so when we had power on, it was...it meant being able to watch something on TV. Being able to watch anything. I actually learned English by watching Dallas and Dynasty and those kinds of series, American series and watching films. And we were lucky because I used to live right above a small video store and we used to rent the same films over and over again. Things like Greece. Films like Annie, like Ferris Bueller's Day Off. I must have seen those films maybe...I don't know...over thousands of times until the VHS tape was actually completely ruined. So I understood very early. I want to belong to those worlds, to those realities that have nothing to do with my own reality. I want to create those realities. I want to create stories that allow me to escape the boredom of my own life or the fragility also of my own life. Because sometimes you didn't know if...what tomorrow is gonna be and how tomorrow is gonna look like. So it was an escape. I decided early this is what I want to do in life.

MBB You know, for everything that you've witnessed and been through, you seem really calm and centered. What do you do to keep calm in moments like this kind of collective anxiety?

NL [Laughing] I'm just calm because I am...I think it's the situation that imposes this sort of calmness on you. In a way, I have this guilty joy of just being home and having a less hectic life and spending time with my family. Being able to have breakfast together, lunch together, dinner together, being a little bit more, I'm not going to say organized, but yeah, I mean, instinctively more organized. Even though I'm not a very organized person. And it's allowing me really to calm down. And I'm not somebody who likes...I'm not a very social person. I'm not very sociable, and I don't like to be in places where there's lots of people. I am..I get a little bit insecure. So this is allowing me also to just be a little bit...the accessibility of other people's sometimes bad vibes, sometimes not. It's not positive all the time. And this is what scares me a little bit also about social media; it's the fact that you're accessible all the time and that people sometimes can become too aggressive towards each other and too judgmental. It's like you're on a public court where everybody can judge everybody. Everybody can assume that they are more perfect or more or allowed to judge other people because they are better than them.

MBB Yes. You know, I think a lot of people are rethinking their relationships with social media right now, as they are a lot of things. But I've spoken to a number of artists who are having a hard time creating right now. What advice would you give to other artists who are struggling creatively and are unable to jump into a new project or are feeling overwhelmed or even struggling to tap into their creativity at all?

NL You know, it's difficult to give advice because I'm in that same situation. I'm not able to create a lot. I'm not able. And I think it's OK. I think it's OK to take the time to absorb what's happening. And it will come. Of course. Of course, it's a good time to be creative. It's a good time because we have more time to be able to write or draw or sculpt or do whatever, you know, artistic work. But I do understand also people who are not being able to do that because it's difficult to absorb all what's happening. And also, there's this sort of feeling of responsibility. What is my responsibility as a human being and what's happening, and how can I have an impact or how can I use my tool, which is art in the best way possible? You don't always find the answer very quickly. You really have to think about it, because I am sure lots of artists are feeling this responsibility and want to use their art and their platform and their tool in a way that where they can make a change.

MBB You know, when we first met, you had just been, I think it was right before you were nominated for the Oscar and you just won the Jury Prize for Capernaum, which, of course, focused on very difficult circumstances for the refugees in Beirut. But when we spoke, you were also really focusing on how it's not just an issue in Lebanon, but the problem of children living in poverty and of refugees is a worldwide problem. And I think that's what you said you were trying to do with the film. But can you talk a bit about that and explain how the film came about?

NL Yes, the film does not only talk about refugees. Of course, the refugee problem is one of those issues that the film tackles. But the film mainly speaks about those marginalized communities, whether they are refugees or whether they are stateless families or stateless children, whether they are migrant workers living in illegal situations, not being able to have a life living on the fringes of our societies, talking about delinquency at a very early age for those children. It’'s mainly talking about the injustice and those who are excluded from our system. So, you know, because the system fails them on every level and it is not able to find solutions for them and they end up being completely marginalized, excluded from our societies and our communities. And they live on the fringes of society on standby more than a way, in a very invisible way, because most of them become invisible, invisible. Most of them don't have papers, most of them...some of them are completely stateless. Some of them are refugees. I guess some of them are migrant workers not able to have the normal situation. So it's about the excluded, really. And it came out of a feeling of responsibility as a human being. You know, I am not allowed or I cannot be in a position where I just adapt to the situation. Unfortunately, we are adapting. We've been adapting to the situation. We've been living our lives normally as if this was part of life. And when you talk about this subject, 20 people, they say, “well, it's life.” Well, no, it's not life. It's not supposed to be like that. We cannot accept it. We cannot adapt to this situation. We have to find ways.

MBB And you clearly turned the frustration that you were feeling into something positive by creating a film that sheds light on this problem. And it really pushes people to consider what's going on behind the scenes.

NL In those lives, when this child that comes across your path and then maybe you decide to help him or not, to give him money or not. But what goes on when he disappears around the corner and you don't see him anymore? Where does he go? Who is his family? How does he see us? How does he see the world? What is his reflection towards all the injustice that he goes through? I'm talking about those children that you see them, you know, begging or working or carrying heavy loads or working in a supermarket as a delivery boy. And I was also very struck by the image of...I don't know if you remember, Eilon, the Kurdish boy who was found dead on the shores in the beach in Turkey a few years ago. And I remember thinking, you know, if this child could talk, what would he say? How would he address us? You know, the adults that...the human beings, the adults, yes, that put him in that situation or that drag him or dragged him in this life without even asking for his opinion about it. We just, this is what we do. We drag those children with our misconceptions and judgments and bad decisions and failing systems. And so it was a mixture of all those things that led me to want to really talk about it and explore it more and understand it more and research and and work with the people who have been through those situations. It's those situations. That's why I worked with non actors, who have lived this struggle, who have been through this struggle. It was a collaborative process. They were able to talk about their struggle through the film. The idea was the aimless, for this film to become the platform for them to express themselves also and for their voices to resonate even more. And I know how much art has a huge responsibility in this. Art can really be a huge… I know you say… a megaphone for those voices, for those voices it allows. It is because art can talk to you on an emotional frequency. Art speaks to the soul, speaks to your emotion and frequency and nothing else does that; that same effect, has that much of an impact on you as a human being. And it is really through your emotions that, your true emotions, that you are able to take action or to achieve great things. And I totally believe in the power of art in that way.

MBB Yes. And one of the things that I found so powerful in the movie is, as you said, you use non actors. So there's almost, even though there's a narrative and a storyline that you conceived of, there is a documentary quality to it because as you watch the film, you're aware that these children are enacting lives that are very authentic to them. And, you know, this concept that you came up with, which I think really gets to the heart of what you were just saying about what is the opinion of the child? What did the child think? You know, having one of the children actually sue his parents for giving birth to him, and this idea that forces you to think about who has a right to bring us into being. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I thought that was so fascinating.

NL Yes, I mean, it was coming also from that reasoning is, you know, how we decide the lives of these children without even taking their opinion. And it's really going back to that same image that I told you, this small child on the beach in Turkey. And I was thinking if he...I think if he was able to, he would do what this kid did in the film, I think. He would really say, you know, you don't have the right to bring me into this world if you don't...if you're not going to give me the tools to survive, if you're not going to give me the right, you know, my most basic rights to be able to survive this life. And this is why it was really about...I was coming back one night from, you know, at dinner at 1 o'clock in the morning. I was in my car and I see a child who is about maybe one or two years old sitting with his mother on the sidewalk. And the sidewalk was very, very narrow. It was in the middle of the road, it was not really a sidewalk. It was something that separates…

MBB Oh, a divide.

NL Yes! And he was not able to lie down because it's so narrow. So he was sleeping sitting down and he was not able to sleep because, you know, he kept dozing off like this. And I thought, you know, how did we get to this point where we adapt to this? I continued, you know, I went home and I went home. I didn't do anything about it. And I was..I was thinking, how can I...how are we living with this? How are we allowing for such a crime to happen? Because it is a crime and we're not doing anything about it. So I came home and I drew the face of a child who is shouting at adults, very angry, you know, with his mouth wide open and really shouting at adults standing in front of him. And this image became later on, Zain, who is the main actor in the film, standing in court in front of adults who are really representing those adults in this image, shouting at them and saying, “you don't have the right to bring me into this kind of life.” And by suing his parents, he's actually suing the whole world. He's suing the whole system, he’s suing the whole society. It's not about suing his parents, because we also understand through the film that his parents are as much victims as he is. They are victims of the same, this vicious circle. They've been through the same circumstances. They've had the same life. And it's about breaking this. It's about breaking that vicious circle. And this child decided to break it by saying, “stop. You can't do this to me anymore.” And I don't know...you know, sometimes you don't know why you do certain things, because it becomes very instinctively. It becomes like...it's like in inspiration of the moment. And then it's..you just come out with ideas like that. It was about that.

MBB That's amazing. And so I also loved your film Where Do We Go Now? How did you come up with that idea?

NL So, Where Do We Go Now? came from also the fact that a few years ago, we were unfortunately on the verge of having a new civil war. You know, there was, you know, there was a conflict between two different political parties. And all of a sudden, everybody took weapons again. It was in 2008. Everyone took weapons again. And we were almost on the verge of a new civil war. And it happened over hours. It didn't even take days or weeks. It happened over hours. And I remember thinking at that moment, I was pregnant with my first child, and I remember thinking, you know, if my child was now born and if he was a boy and if this boy was a teenager or an adult and he was going to take a weapon and go down to the street and do whatever the rest were doing, what would I do as a mother to stop him? How far would I go, as has his mother, to stop him from taking that weapon? And, you know, engaging into some kind of violent act. And that's how the idea of the film started. It became slowly the story of different women, different mothers coming together to stop their men from fighting. Because I think, I truly think that, you know, wars are the stupidest thing anyone can do. I think it's when we are not able to really sit down and talk and analyze that we tend to take weapons or fight. And it's the stupidest thing to do.

MBB It's interesting because one of the things that I fell in love with about Lebanon when I was there last year, and I was lucky to spend a couple of weeks at two different times there, but it was the city's honesty and the city and its citizens really just put it out there. I mean, there's the complexity and the difficulties, but also the beauty and the brutality. And I remember even saying when we met that it's a city of contradictions, but because it's so small, you can't miss what can be hidden in other places. I mean, it's all right in front of you. The complexity and the contradictions and the mix. And to me, what you just described is very much the same. So you feel that this all leads to Beirut sort of breeding activist citizens in some way.

NL Yes, absolutely. I mean, it is like you said, it is a place of contradiction. So many different communities living together in so many different ways. You know, even the food sometimes differs from one neighborhood to the other. And it's great. That's well, that's what makes it such a beautiful place because it's full of contradictions. But at the same time, somehow those contradictions come together and are able to live together and are able to really find common goals in a way. And the revolution that has happened lately, I think, was able even to revive that even more and make us understand even more how important this unison is. Because obviously, I think this revolution is...it was very and is still a very, very strong and is able to achieve so many things. But it's not a revolution that will happen only in Lebanon. I think it's a revolution that's going to soon happen everywhere in the world. I think we were a bit maybe a few weeks or a few months earlier, and the fact that, you know, we just decided that no more, the system's not working for us anymore the way it is. There's too much injustice that we have the right to have a decent life. We have the right to have our most basic rights. And this is going to soon happen everywhere else in the world. Everybody's waking up to the fact that our systems are not working.

MBB Oh, certainly. It seems like everybody is looking for serious change now. And how do you think this revolution in Lebanon specifically is manifesting during the lockdown?

NL You know, still, it's still going on, even in the lockdown. There's still a lot of thinking, you know, and the lockdown is even making it, even allowing us to think even more. There's, you know, during the day we have at least four, five, six meetings a day talking about what are the next steps, how to rethink our country, what do we do when this lockdown is over? How do we keep moving forward? And there's a lot of thinking, which is great. And, you know, in every apartment and every group of people are meeting every day, to rethink Lebanon, which is great. I think this lockdown is really helpful in that way.

MBB But I know there haven't been the demonstrations in the streets as much. So I wonder, is there a way that you're getting the message across to the government? I mean, how do you do that right now?

NL Yeah, we're doing lots of pressure. I mean, thanks to social media also. So we are able to do a lot of pressure. There's many beautiful initiatives, campaigns that are amazing also. Through social media, we are able to achieve a lot also. I mean, of course, we need to be on the streets again. But in the meantime, it doesn't stop us from being sometimes even more effective and being able to achieve great goals. And we have accumulated several big wins through, you know, during those last few months. And I'm also very hopeful for the revolution. It's only the beginning, I think.

MBB Can you maybe give some examples of some of the big wins?

NL First of all, if you want to go in the beginning, we were able to overthrow the government, have a new government. It doesn't mean that we're happy with the new government. But there was a change. We're trying to stop a big dam happening, you know? And it's working. It's working. We are moving forward very quickly and in a very positive way. This unison I spoke to you about is among, you know, us Lebanese is felt more and more. Those groups that are rethinking Lebanon, those amazing professionals and ecologists, economists, people who are like I told you, coming together to rethink Lebanon. I mean, there's a lot of planning that is happening, which is amazing.

MBB That is amazing. So what charitable organization that you're connected with could people donate to if they want to help have a positive impact in Lebanon?

NL Yes. I mean, we are working with two beautiful NGOs that are able to distribute food boxes all over Lebanon or trying to. We've worked on a campaign with them to be able to reach as many people as possible. Like I told you, there's a million and two thousand, two hundred thousand people that are under a poverty line. So there's a lot of people that we should reach. So it's [indistinguishable] and the Lebanese Food Bank who have merged their efforts. They are working together with the 95 other NGOs to be able to distribute these food boxes all over Lebanon. It's a food box that is able to sustain the family for a month. Also, we are distributing seeds also for people to be able to plant plants and their balconies, plant on the rooftops or wherever, you know, small pieces of land they can have to be able to plant. So these are the two major NGOs I'm working with for the time being. And, you know, if somebody wants to donate, if it’s really for them, it's really...it would be helpful a lot, if they can go to these two NGOs.

MBB Fantastic. OK. So I would love to know what you're reading right now.

NL Actually, I'm reading lots of different scripts right now. I'm not reading a specific book. I have like 30, 40 scripts to read. Because, you know, with the success of the latest film, I have, like I have an American agency. I'm working with American agents. So I have lots of new scripts to read. And yes, that's what I'm doing right now.

MBB And what about films? Are there films that you're watching?

NL I saw a few days ago a beautiful series called Fleabag. I don't know if you know...I really loved it. I'm trying also to watch documentaries, you know, about the subject that I spoke to you about. There’s a film I could recommend called Tomorrow. I don't know if you've seen it. It's a documentary also about, you know, alternative ways of living and alternative ways of thinking. It's called Tomorrow. Very, very interesting film. I would recommend it if you have time.

MBB Thanks. I haven't seen it, but I will definitely watch it. Let's talk a little bit about traveling. I want to know what it is that you love most about traveling or what do you think is the greatest gift of travel?

NL I love traveling in general. I really love traveling. I'm the happiest when I'm in an airport, I think. I don't know why, because I have, you know, you have this feeling of a no-man's land where you are in between; you're in between places, you're in between lives. You are in this, I don't know, limbo, standby mode where you can just not do anything, just disappear. And nobody...I have, you know, this feeling of freedom. I like traveling a lot because of this sense of freedom, the sense of not knowing it, being in a place where you don't know anyone, where you are just completely anonymous or you can just disappear. You have this amazing freedom that I really love. I love traveling in general. And unfortunately, now it's difficult. And we have to think about traveling again now and have to think about how do we travel without trying to pollute the less possible? And how do we become more responsible travelers? What does it mean? How will, what will traveling mean and how will it look like. Traveling, I mean, I don't...there's not one moment, but I love traveling.

MBB And is there a favorite place when you travel that you go to to relax?

NL So it's a beautiful place here in Lebanon. It's called Batroun. I don't know if you've seen it, if you've been there?

MBB Yes. I was lucky to visit. And it is incredibly beautiful.

NL Yes. We have a little house in the forest, in the middle of the forest. Also a very secluded place, very green in the middle of the forest. I love it. It's really my place to go and relax.

MBB And what about for exploring? Are there areas that you love to explore?

NL I promised myself when the lockdown is over to actually explore my own country, because, of course, there are so many places I haven't been because we take it for granted. You know, we take it for granted. Always going to have time to go to this place or to this village and we hear about them but we never do go because we think, you know, it's always going to be there and we're always going to have time to see them, but we end up not going. And so I promised myself. As soon as the lockdown is over, and because of the fact that we would not be able to travel a lot I think soon to travel in my own country and explore my own country.

MBB I think a lot of people are feeling exactly that way. And we'll all be exploring closer to home for a while. Thank you so much for joining me, Nadine.

My next guest also draws inspiration from his surroundings. In this case, it's the Napa Valley region. On the next episode, I will be chatting with Christopher Castile, who is the chef at the restaurant at Meadowood, one of my favorite American resorts. Chris is the third youngest chef ever to receive three Michelin Stars, and he's been winning that highest of honors every year since he joined Meadowood in 2011. Also joining the conversation will be Howie Kahn, an author and contributing editor of the Wall Street Journal's magazine, WSJ. Howie and I actually co-hosted an Indagare Insider Journey to Napa Valley last year, where we had one of the most memorable meals of my life, thanks to Chris. It's a conversation that really showcases their love for food and travel. Or maybe I should say traveling for a love of food. And yes, they will share some of their trade secrets and sources. I hope you will join us.

Producer Thank you for joining us for this Indagare Global Conversation. We hope you'll tune in next time and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. It also helps us enormously if you write and review us on iTunes. And be sure to check out www.indagare.com/global conversations for information on joining one of our conversations live. Be sure to also follow us on Instagram at @indagare travel for more travel inspiration and news on our programing and upcoming episodes.