and Leon Golub: An lnterview by Gonnie Samatas

Photo: Peter Manschol

Leon Golub and llancy Spero at Detroit Focus Gallery

Artists ltancy Spero and Leon Golub met shortly after f,lorld War rest ol society, and that the women had better discuss their particu- ll, while they woro students at the Arl lnstitute ol Ghicago. They sub- lar problems as women arlists - which we realized were palpable, sequently married. ln addilion to several years spent in the Midwest, really tangible, once we started figuring out what was going on at they have lived and worked in ltaly and France. ln lhe mid-60's they galleries, museums, and schools. So WAR was formed, and we did a settled in City where they now reside. few actions. I remember going to the Museum of Modern . There They visited Detroit this past 0ctobcr t0 open a show ol their work were eight ol us (and one woman had a child or two along with her). percent parity M0MA. at the Center lor Greative Studies and to iury a show lor Dctroit Focus We demanded 50 with males exhibiting at Gallery. The following interview was conducted belora an audience at Hightower, who was director then, invited us to sit down. We the Genter lor Greative Studies on 0ctober 5, 1983. This abridge- wouldn't sit down. We just stood there, handed him our petition, and ment has been approved by the artists. marched out of the place. Another women's group, called the Ad Hoc Women Artists Com- Sanaras t0 Nancy Spero: You were part of Women Artists in Revolu- mittee, later lormed oul ol the AWC. Lucy Lippard was a very im' tion (WAR), the lirst women's artist group in New YorR, and were portant impetus for lhat. The lirst action this group took was to pickel one of the founding members ol the Artists in Residence (AIR) gallery the Whitney. This action was based on the realization that the in New York, in 1971. Could you talk about your experienees with representation of women in the 1970 biennial was only lour percent. both thase groups. A lew years previously, there had been 14 to 15 percent representa- Spero: A little atter some of the other radicalwomen's groups started tion, but that wasn't adequate and seemed to be diminishing. So we in New York City, some of the women artists in a group called the Art picketed the museum. One group left Tampax and black and white Workers Coalition (AWC) - a group ol artists that had gotten raw eggs - to represent Black and White women artists - around together in the late 60's to analyze what was going on in the art the museum to let women's presence be known. Our actions were ef- world - decided that the male revolutionaries kind ol jived with the fective; we have gotten about 20 to 25 percent representation over the last decade. ln this last show, women did much better; it was Spero: I am going to make an exception for you. about 36 percent. I'll tell you: I sometimes look at his work and I wonder what kind of person made it. (Both laugh.) No, really, somelimes I stand and Sanaras: D0 ynu think things have changed significantly for women a paintings, if I artists? look at these and I wonder what I would think of them didn't know him. But because they d0 have a basis in humanity and Spero: They haven't changed. There has been a lot of attention sympathy, and because they're ambiguous enough that they're not recently paid to feminist thought in the art community in New York lust macho gestures, they are saying something about our society City, but l'm nol sure how profound an inlluence it is. lt comes and and power in our society. And I know full well where the power is in goes; it's fashionable or unfashionable. Until the last few years, it's our society. been almost a forbidden subject. Sanaras: I'm interested in the movement in your work from the an- Sanaras: The period you talk abnut was a very active and lively one. drogynous voice in fhe Codex Artaud ser'es t0 thP specifically female I tind it discouraging that despite the awareness of discrimination, voice in your later work. As the voice becomes more directly related the energy to organize isn't there, as it was before. to your life experience, the text becomes nore readable; it shifts from Spero: Before, there weren't many opportunities; there were iust a French to English. Why did you begin to incorporate verbal language few token women, and we were all in the same boat. What has hap- into your work, and how does it interact with the images? pened is that certain women have been placed in galleries, lip service Spero: I've used language 0n and off throughout my work, but never has been paid, and the perceniages are higher. A cerlain amount of so intensively as in the last decade. The tongue image appears very co-optation has taken place. There's also a lot of anger and rivalry early, in 1960, in the little angry paintings that I did when I was do- groups, so the energy's been dispersed, and there isn't within these ing the black paintings. They're "fuck you" paintings. They're the cohesion that the movement started with. angry images, and the tongue is sticking out, phallic and defiant. lnlluences from the women's art movement continue to be felt, And obscene! At that time, I used the rationale of the Medieval the however. The magazine Heresies, which deals wilh art and politics, - tongues of the victims, and drowning figures, as in the tenth century continues to publish. The ideas of the French women philosophers Apocalypse of Saint-Sever. ln the War Series I used the tongue are coming onto the scene. Although AIR is no longer considered a again. lt was obscene, and it was with bombs, which are obscene. new and exciting phenomenon, it continues, and its existence is The only way I could show obscenity was through sexual exaggera- another kind ol push to keep this dialogue about feminism going. But tion. Then in lhe Artaud paintings, I used the motif again. Artaud as a separatist and activist community of women, the movement is spoke very movingly of his tongue and how he was silenced. He more dispersed and individualized now. couldn't cry out. He was silenced as an artist by society. I used Still, when you get a group of women together, and there's a dis- Artaud's texts to explain my situation as an artist in society. cussion, resentment always surfaces. Recently, in the French leminist philosophers, I have been Sanaras: In the early 70's, the concept of a female aesthetic arose. reading about the silence of women: how women talk, but do not l It came out 0f the perception that since women are often contined to speak. That means they have no power; their voices are not heard. I the private sphere, our art often refers to this sphere. lt was als' an continued using language, but much more clearly, in ,Votes in Time attempt t0 phint out that because the domestic sphere is devalued, andinTorture of Women.lt's as il I wanted this silence which I feminists - women's art work has also been devalued. At that tine, felt innately imposed upon women's viewpoints, women's speech pointing men's - were concerned simply with to difterences belween to come out in my work and to give it a certain kind ol verification, down the and women's work in an attempt to transcend and to break since I really didn't experience any kind of public verification of my gender. in current mainstream feminist cultural construction of Now work. lt's terrible not to have a tongue, not to have dialogue with the thought, particularty among the neo{eminite'pt//osophers you men' art world. I was getting a little attention, but not enough that I felt I glorified, than sinply be- tioned, these differences are being rather had my tongue. Lately, I haven't felt that same necessity. I've just manifestations imposed gender ing regarded as the of a culturally been using the images. system. Do you think that the celebration ol these differences runs Sanaras: Since you're both so politicized, I wonder how you've the danger of ghettoizing women artists and thus ultimately disem- dealt, in your own relationship, with the public reality that a man's powering us? work is more highly valued than a woman's work. Sperc: lt's a big problem. I think gender does matter. Look at the Golub: Right now she's getting a lot of attention. She has no com- phenomenon of the figuration that's come in, this New Expres- plaints, but she has had reason for complaint in the past. Over the sionism. These male gestures are a terrifically macho kind of expres- years, I've had a lot of attention. 0ften people would come over to sion. You can't really name any women who are making art in quite see my work and totally ignore hers. This went on lor many years. this way. There are a few token women who are included in all the She took a lot of crap over the years, and she took it with great pa- exhibits that go to Europe, but it's really a male phenomenon. tience. She also didn't have any choice, I mean, how are you going lf women's language, women's expression is ditferent, which I to break out from under? You do what you can under those cir- think it possibly can be that hasn't been thoroughly investigated - cumstances. 0f course, there was a period during which there was a yet it could very well ghettoize woman and keep her in her place. - big dip in my lortunes. With that dip it started in the late 60's and It's a diflicult problem when you join the "other," or the "other" ac' - lasted through the late 70's I largely disappeared from people's cepts you, just how the two can mesh 0r stay separate. - acknowledgment in the art scene. She got a fair amount of recogni- Sanans (speaking t0 Leun Golub): Since you're being heralded as tion at that point. part of the Neo-Expressionist novement, how do you relate to what Spero (breaking in): Through leminism. Nancy is saying? Golub: Yes. Now we both have decent reputations in New York; now Golub: I see it as more her problem than mine. I'm doing what I'm people come to see both of us. doing, and I have my own justification for it, for good or for evil. My work is among the most macho of these manifestations. So when she Spero: Even if they come to see one now, they acknowledge the attacks this whole movement, she's got to deal with me at some other, which did not happen in the past. lt was like there was nobody level. She'll make an exception lor me. (Laughs.) else there. Sanaras: What effect did the periods of isolation tron the art world, malelo-female transvestites. Why transvestites in the new work? from critical acclaim, have upon your work? Golub: Because il's lun to do. lt's too nice just to do a guy with an Golub: lt's hard for artists who don't have a lot ol success t0 ap- arm around a girl. I want to make it ambiguous. Even the so-called preciate this, but artists who get a lot 0l attention often pay a normal relationships are ambiguous, anyway. I like to go to the edge ferocious price lor it. Some artists can hardly appear in public to see where it can slip into something else because it's at the edges because they get so much attention. I would guess if you wanted to ol things that you see how society really operates. Society operales contact Rauschenberg, you'd find it impossible. He needs layers of in a public way, okay? We have a system of checks and balances. lf cocooning in order to have any time at all. But when you're cocoon- something goes wrong, maybe the newspapers will comment on it, ed, you're kept away lrom reality, too. That happened to Picasso. and somebody will gel involved, and so on. But when we really want Another thing that happens is that if you get used to a lack of suc- to pull otf a stunt, we move to the edges where law and order, so- cess, you're used to it. What's really hard to take is having some called, breaks down, where you pay money to somebody to pull otf a success for five or ten years, and then - Bang! - it's taken away stunt, where you try to hide it after it's occurred. That's not far dif- from you. That's harder. Artists who have no success, or little suc- ferent from some ol the sexual games people play as they go toward cess, have two choices: they get out while they can, or hunker the edges, as people experiment with their roles, and as they play down, develop a siege mentality. A siege mentality, though, can have games with each other. negative etfects on you, but a siege mentality can also be very etfec- Sanaras: May Stevens once stated that viewers must already be tive because you learn resistance. And I think that the work of both politicized when they come to her art in order to understand her of us in ditlerent ways has gained from those periods when we've political meaning. Do either of you think that images have the Wwer had trouble in the art world. Had my work in the 60's attracted a to cause people to act? great deal ol success, including linancial success, I might be doing Golub: You don't have to be politicized to understand the art ol either that same kind of work today. of us. One of the biggest compliments I ever got was from some guy lf your work is not getting a lot ol recognition, you start getting who probably never looked at art in his life. He came up to deliver a doubts. Even the strongest people get terrible doubts about what package or something and looked at my work and said, "Hey! That they're doing. That can tear you apart. hits me righl in the eyeball!" That's a tremendous compliment. Spero: lf one can maintain an interior dialogue, isolation brings with People know immediately what you're talking about. We all know it the advantage ol working out certain artistic problems. ll the about control in our immediate circumstances. There's a top dog in obscurity, however, is foo profound, that's quite detrimental. During all situations in the world. periods ol my career, it's been almost devastating, really. Sanans: ln the nainstream feminist novement, there's been a big Samaras: I'm interested in the aspect of sexuality in both your work. anti-pornography crusade. That's not to say that all leminists agree You've mentioned that you draw some of your imagery trom with this position; lt's yust that it has glften a lot of media aftention' sadomasochistic magazines. What are you nying exactly about the The saying among the anti-porn feninists is that porn is the theory, relationship of sexuality to fascism? For example, sadomasochists and rape is the practice. They believe that images do cause people to have been writing a great deal recently in publications that deal with act and that if we remove certain pornographic images from our sexual politics. They argue that people who practice SM sexually are slciety, then violence against women will dininish. acutely sensitive to power imbalances that the relationships are - Sporo: A lot of gray area, isn't there? When I see some ol the really not fascistic, because a sadist has to be ertremely sensitive to the far-out porn, the aggressive and deslructive kind . . . masochist's tolerance ol pain in order to make it a good sexual en- (breaking counter for them both. ln other words, there's a great compassion Golub in): The kind I use. there. Spero (laughing): That's right! That's right! porn probably can influence some Golub: There are all kinds of sadomasochistic relationships. Some . . . I do leel a revulsion. This sick minds. 0n the other hand, because of some ol the images I've may show compassion; some may be iust pleasure, sexual play, be- years, terribly alraid of censorship. And tween male and male, female and female, or male and female, Some created over the I am iust you pornography rs detrimental to society, and relationships play out brutal scenarios ol domination. The masochist where do stop? Some is also playing out the domination scenario at various levels. They it shouldn't be acceptable. matter ol discretion that can meet at one level or another, but it is not always in balance. I think that censorship becomes a ol a rigorous censorship My take on it is that I use photos lor inlormation. The inlormation hardly be decided by the courts. I am afraid Right in a crusade for is specific. lt's a stronger fix on reality than any preliminary draw- because this kind of thing supports the Far ings that I might improvise. Facial expressions and "cleaning up" our minds. acknowledgments, body gesture, and details ol uniforms are part ot Golub: Recently there was a report in lhe paper about a doctor who the density ol inlormation that I draw upon. I can't get photos lrom had committed - oh, I don't know - dozens ol rapes. He didn't get the Argentine government. They're not going to release them to me. that from pornography. He would have done it if there were no books .Sadomasochism on a personal level has to do with the sexual around. There were rapes when there were no photographs of them. pleasure, or problems, ol the individuals involved. But whal about What do you think went on in the 18th century, in the 17th century, when it's used as government policy? When we, the United States in Medieval times? lmpulses to rape come from very deep sources - or the Soviet Union, if you wish - give money to police lorces within the psyche. They're usually acts ol revenge 0r anger. which then use that money to buy and develop instruments 0l tor- Spero (to Leon Golub): I really think the media can give strong sug- ture, we know they're doing it. At that point, it's not as important gestions to some very sick minds. Look at all the violence in films that an individual torturer is getting his kicks. lt's the fact that and TV. TV is almost a sanction in our society for veering toward people. what's being done is policy to control and terrorize They're violence. I can't quite look at it with the equanimity that you do, political not dominated in a playful sense. They are dominated in a although I'm alraid ol censorship, myself. situation in the exercise of power and control.

Sanaras: ln your most recent work, you depict mercenary "types" Gonnio Samaras is an artist who lives in Ann Arbor. She is currently a visiting at leisure. ln sone of these paintings, they have their arms around lecturer at Eastern Michigan University.

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