Parliamentary Debates House of Commons Official Report General Committees

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES

Public Bill Committee

ANTI-SOCIAL BEHAVIOUR, CRIME AND POLICING BILL

First Sitting Tuesday 18 June 2013 (Morning)

CONTENTS Programme motion agreed to. Written evidence (Reporting to the House) motion agreed to. Motion to sit in private agreed to. Examination of witnesses. Adjourned till this day at Two o’clock.

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The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chairs: JIM DOBBIN,†SIR ROGER GALE

† Barclay, Stephen (North East Cambridgeshire) † Mosley, Stephen (City of Chester) (Con) (Con) Paisley, Ian (North Antrim) (DUP) † Browne, Mr Jeremy (Minister of State, Home † Phillips, Stephen (Sleaford and North Hykeham) Department) (Con) † Champion, Sarah (Rotherham) (Lab) † Phillipson, Bridget (Houghton and Sunderland † Cooper, Rosie (West Lancashire) (Lab) South) (Lab) † Crouch, Tracey (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con) † Rutley, David (Macclesfield) (Con) † Danczuk, Simon (Rochdale) (Lab) † Skidmore, Chris (Kingswood) (Con) † De Piero, Gloria (Ashfield) (Lab) † Syms, Mr Robert (Poole) (Con) † Fuller, Richard (Bedford) (Con) † Wilson, Phil (Sedgefield) (Lab) Green, Damian (Minister for Policing and Criminal † Wright, Simon (Norwich South) (LD) Justice) † Hanson, Mr David (Delyn) (Lab) Steven Mark and Georgina Holmes-Skelton, † Lewell-Buck, Emma (South Shields) (Lab) Committee Clerks † Maynard, Paul (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con) † attended the Committee

Witnesses

Gavin Thomas, Vice-President, Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales

Tim Jackson, National Deputy Secretary, Police Superintendents Association of England and Wales

Steve Williams, Chair, Police Federation of England and Wales 1 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 2 Policing Bill (h) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 11 July. Public Bill Committee (i) at 8.55 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 16 July. (2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with Tuesday 18 June 2013 the following Table: TABLE

(Morning) Date Time Witness

Tuesday 18 June Until no Police Superintendents [SIR ROGER GALE in the Chair] later than Association of 10.00 am England and Wales; Police Federation of England Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and and Wales Policing Bill Until no Independent Police later than Complaints Commission 8.55 am 2.30 pm Until no Local Government The Chair: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Before later than Association; we commence, I have a few preliminary announcements. 4.00 pm Social Landlords Crime and Ladies and gentlemen may remove their jackets, if they Nuisance Group; so wish. Please ensure that all electronic devices are Chartered Institute of turned off: ringing not only annoys Committee members, Housing; but interferes with the broadcast system, which is of Standing Committee on Youth Justice much greater importance. Until no College of Policing; As a general rule, I and my co-Chair, Jim Dobbin—I later than John Randall, Independent am delighted that he is with us this morning—will not 5.00 pm Chair of the call starred amendments that have not been tabled with Police Negotiating Board and adequate notice. The required notice period in Public Police Bill Committees is three working days, so amendments Advisory Board for England should be tabled by the rise of the House on Monday and Wales for consideration on Thursday, and by the rise of the Thursday 20 June Until no Association of Police and House on Thursday for consideration on the following later than Crime 12.30 pm Commissioners; Tuesday. Chief police officers Not everybody is familiar with the process of taking Until no Karma Nirvana; oral evidence in Public Bill Committees, so it may help later than Freedom if I explain how we will proceed. First, the Committee 1.00 pm will be asked to consider the programme motion that Until no Victim Support was agreed by the Programming Sub-Committee the later than other day and by the usual channels. It can be debated 2.45 pm for up to half an hour. Once we have disposed of that, Until no Fair Trials International with the motion being put and agreed, we will proceed later than to the motion on reporting written evidence, which I 3.15 pm trust will be a formality. Once such motions have been Until no Liberty agreed, we will move into a private sitting in case the later than Committee wishes to discuss how to approach the evidence 4.00 pm session. Following that, we will take oral evidence. Until no Royal Society for the later than Prevention of Cruelty to I am told by the usual channels that the oral evidence 4.30 pm Animals; session may finish slightly early. I anticipate that we will Dogs Trust finish by 10 am, but the Chair has discretion to extend Until no Home Office the session by 15 minutes if it is apparent that there are later than further questions that Members wish to ask and witnesses 5.15 pm wish to answer. Without further ado, I call the Minister to move the programme motion. (3) proceedings on consideration of the Bill in Committee shall be taken in the following order: Clauses 1 to 10; Schedule 1; Clause 11; Schedule 2; Clauses 12 to 86; Schedule 3; Clauses 87 The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy to 96; Schedule 4; Clauses 97 to 113; Schedule 5; Clauses 114 to Browne): I beg to move, 124; Schedule 6; Clauses 125 to 136; new Clauses; new Schedules; That— Clause 137; Schedule 7; Clauses 138 to 142; remaining proceedings on the Bill; (1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at 8.55 am on Tuesday 18 June) meet— (4) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on Tuesday 16 July. (a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 18 June; (b) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 20 June; I am delighted to serve under your chairmanship, (c) at 8.55 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 25 June; Sir Roger, and that of your co-Chair, Mr Dobbin. I share your pleasure in seeing Mr Dobbin at our deliberations (d) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 27 June; this morning. My right hon. Friend the Minister for (e) at 8.55 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 2 July; Policing and Criminal Justice and I look forward to a (f) at 11.30 am and 2.00 pm on Thursday 4 July; detailed discussion of the provisions of the Bill with my (g) at 8.55 am and 2.00 pm on Tuesday 9 July; hon. Friends on the Government Benches and hon. 3 Public Bill Committee18 JUNE 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 4 Policing Bill Members on the Opposition ones. I am pleased to see Examination of Witnesses the right hon. Member for Delyn on the Opposition Gavin Thomas, Tim Jackson and Steve Williams gave Front Bench, following the many productive hours—it evidence. says here—that we spent together during the last Session considering the Crime and Courts Bill. I also welcome 9.6 am the hon. Member for Ashfield to the Front Bench. I know that she has taken a strong interest in antisocial The Chair: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We behaviour, and I look forward to debating that issue are now going to hear oral evidence from the Police with her and other Committee members. Superintendents Association of England and Wales and the Police Federation. Before I ask Mr Hanson to The programme motion provides us with more than ask the first question, I remind all hon. Members that adequate time to enable proper scrutiny of this important questions should be limited to matters within the scope Bill. Judging from the speeches on Second Reading, we of the Bill and not to general policing matters, as might can anticipate lively discussions, particularly about antisocial be the temptation. I believe that several hon. Members behaviour and dangerous dogs, but other aspects of the wish to declare interests and place them on the record Bill also warrant close scrutiny, including the provisions before we start, so I invite bids. on firearms, forced marriage and policing. There is plenty for Committee members to get their teeth into, and we look forward to those deliberations. Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): At some point, we will be hearing evidence from the Before we embark on clause by clause consideration Dogs Trust, so I inform the Committee that I have of the Bill, the programme motion provides for two previously been instructed by the Dogs Trust, albeit days of oral evidence from 19 individuals and organisations. some time ago. I am afraid that I am hopelessly behind the times, Sir Roger, but this is the first time that I have been on a Committee where this procedure has been used, so I am Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): I am looking forward to the experience. As well as having the chair of the Pet Advisory Committee, which has a opportunity to ask questions, the oral evidence sittings number of companion animal welfare groups, including conclude with me having the opportunity on Thursday those involved with dogs. afternoon to answer some questions, along with my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing and Criminal The Chair: Mr Jackson, Mr Thomas and Mr Williams, Justice. All the witnesses will, I am sure, represent a thank you very much for joining us. We are indebted to range of views and will help inform the Committee’s you. I invite Mr Hanson to put the first question. consideration of the Bill. Without further ado, I invite the Committee to agree the motion. Q1 Mr Hanson: Good morning, gentlemen. I am interested in the clauses that relate to the review bodies for police remuneration, and I would like to get a Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I too welcome you, general view from the Police Superintendents Association Sir Roger, and your co-Chair, Mr Dobbin, to the and the Police Federation on those issues. When the Committee. We look forward to serving under you for changes were announced, the Police Federation said the next few weeks. There is obviously a lot to discuss. that it was “extremely angry and disappointed” with the The official Opposition are content with the programme Home Secretary’s recommendation to abolish the Police motion as discussed and also with the witnesses, as Negotiating Board, and the Police Superintendents amended, before the Committee, and we are anxious to Association has argued that the board should be retained get on and hear from them today. With Opposition and reformed. Will you outline your view of the current Members, I look forward to questioning witnesses over models, and of the revised model proposed in the Bill? the next two days, and then returning in due course to a Steve Williams: We are disappointed that the PNB is number of amendments we intend to propose on issues to go. We felt that it was the right and proper process to to do with antisocial behaviour, dangerous dogs, firearms, allow police officers, through the federation, to air their the Police Negotiating Board, the College of Policing, views and concerns about their pay, terms and conditions. theft and shoplifting and a range of other matters that Police officers are not employees, so any changes in are before the Committee. There is much to discuss, and employment law or new rights for employees do not we do not wish to delay the Committee any further. automatically apply to them. We are concerned, under Question put and agreed to. the new pay review body, about the things that will fall between the cracks, an example of which is paternity Resolved, leave. At present, the staff side can table a claim at the That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence PNB. In future, however, the matter would have to be received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for remitted to the Home Secretary under a pay review publication.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) body; we would have to wait for up to a year for the Resolved, pay review body to report; we would have to wait for the Home Secretary’s decision on accepting the That, at this and any subsequent meeting at which oral evidence recommendations, or otherwise; and then we would is to be heard, the Committee, shall sit in private until the have to wait for the Home Office to begin to draft witnesses are admitted.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) regulations, which would require consultation. Any delay in the process would have an impact not only on police officers but on employees whose partners are police 9.1 am officers. Therefore, we have some real concerns about The Committee deliberated in private. the pay review body that is coming into place. 5 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 6 Policing Bill Tim Jackson: We share many of the concerns of our Steve Williams: I agree with my colleague that it colleagues in the federation. We have taken the view would be our intention to retain a much reduced PNB right from the outset that we consider the PNB process structure—a more streamlined structure that would be to be fit for purpose in terms of its principle, but we fit for purpose. We are still against the pay review body. fully accept and acknowledge that it could be streamlined significantly in order to make it more slick and effective. Q4 Mr Hanson: Perhaps other Members will want to We agree that it has dealt well with the unique position comment on this in due course. Do you have any view that police officers occupy in society, particularly in about the change that effectively stops a UK structure, relation to our lack of employment rights, and that it allows Scotland to set its own terms and conditions, has served the service and the public well in terms of and brings Northern Ireland with England and Wales delivering fair pay for police officers over the years since under the new proposed body? Does that raise any it was introduced in 1980. concerns about uniformity across the United Kingdom? In relation to the proposals for the police remuneration Steve Williams: I have no doubt that it will cause review body, we are concerned, as my colleague has some difficulties. In our current work on the G8 summit, mentioned, about the fact that quite a lot—probably we have officers from Scotland, Northern Ireland, and the majority—of the work that the PNB has done over England and Wales. Under the current arrangements, the past five years would not fit within the terms of with what has happened in Scotland, there are different reference for the new PRRB. We are concerned about pay scales for officers who are doing exactly the same where those matters would sit in the future, particularly job, so it is not going to be without its difficulties. You as the College of Policing is very much at an embryonic are right. stage, and consultation is yet to start on how some of Tim Jackson: At the moment, under the current the matters that currently sit in the PNB would fit structure, any constituent part of staff side can table within the college or be dealt with effectively by the matters for consideration in one of the four quarterly Police Advisory Board. meetings with the PNB. Although the draft refers to the We note that under its terms of reference, the PRRB remit letter and to taking into consideration other must take into account Government fiscal policy and representations that are made, we would welcome that other matters in relation to the economy. We are, therefore, being firmed up, so that any issues that various members concerned about why the PRRB’s recommendations of staff side would wish the PRRB to consider would, would not be binding on the Home Secretary, and we indeed, make it into the process. At the moment, there ask for consideration of that. If there is disagreement is no guarantee that that would take place, whereas we and the PRRB comes up with a recommendation that is can, under the current arrangements, make sure that not implemented, we have no means of objecting to it whatever we wish to be discussed, and which is appropriate or taking it to any form of arbitration. to be discussed within the PNB, can be discussed.

Q2 Mr Hanson: Do you have any views on the Q5 Mr Hanson: Despite the fact that the Home membership of the new body? Under the proposals in Secretary is setting up a new police negotiating body, the Bill, the chair will be appointed by the Prime clause 114 allows her to make changes to conditions of Minister, and members will be appointed by the Home service for police officers without the advice of that new Secretary. As I understand the Bill, the current police body. Do you have any views on that? If the new body is representation from the staff side will not be present. in place, what is the point of having a clause that allows Do you have any views on the membership? the Home Secretary to override it without its having an Gavin Thomas: I would like to make two points on opportunity to comment? that, if I may. First, the recommendation being put Tim Jackson: The wording is actually quite specific, forward needs the confidence of the men and women in terms of a national emergency or correcting things who are serving in the police service. If it does not have that may have been errors. The PRRB operates on an that confidence, as my colleague in the federation said, annual basis, and, in some ways, I understand the police officers do not have the right to remove their desirability of a mechanism that allows things that are labour. Recommendations are coming through now on clearly wrong to be put right outside an annual process. introducing redundancy in the police service. The first I can see how it could work and be useful, but there are key point is that the proposal must have the confidence some dangers with that as well. of those whose pay and conditions are going to be negotiated. Q6 Mr Hanson: I have a final question before I leave Secondly, comments have been made about the existing this issue. We spent many a happy hour on the Crime negotiation board being clumsy, and our suggested way and Courts Act 2013 only a few weeks ago, and there forward was to review it and make it more streamlined. was, and still is, an issue about the involvement of The second key point I want to make is that the negotiating Northern Ireland in national Home Office-sponsored board provided a voice for men and women in the bodies such as the National Crime Agency. Yet, here, we police service. Under the PRRB, the perception at the are establishing Northern Ireland as part of the police moment is that that voice will not be there. negotiating process. Are you aware of any tensions over the fact that, before appointing the chair of a police Q3 Mr Hanson: Do you have any suggested amendments negotiating body, the Prime Minister will, effectively, for members of the Committee to consider, given that consult only Northern Ireland, when we had so many you accept, as I think I do, that the current process difficulties with the buy-in of the Northern Ireland needs streamlining but that the proposed process has a Assembly to the National Crime Agency? I am genuinely number of concerns from your side and potentially interested to hear whether you have picked up any from ours as well? concern among members in Northern Ireland. 7 Public Bill Committee18 JUNE 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 8 Policing Bill Steve Williams: No, I have not. What I am trying to say is that the proposed legislation is at the end of the spectrum, where we have citizens Mr Hanson: That is a helpful answer. [Interruption.] who are already in that channel of behaviour. If you really want to solve antisocial behaviour, it takes a sustained, long-term, hard-line approach to The Chair: Unfortunately, Hansard cannot record a actually getting into some of those, as the Government shake of the head. say, troubled families. It takes investment to turn some Tim Jackson: I sort of mumbled, “Nor I,” but I was of those people around. There are elements of some of half coughing at the time, so please forgive me. the proposals within the legislation that suggest that, in terms not only of enforcement but trying to steer some Q7 Mr Hanson: My final final question relates to the people back to being citizens. I think the overall ideal—I powers of the College of Policing under the Bill to set suggest we would all agree—is that antisocial behaviour out terms, conditions and training for police officers. should be made unusual in society, and it should be Again, I am interested in whether you feel that police made unacceptable. That is something which is far more service representatives, such as yourselves, are engaged ethereal, which I suggest legislation cannot quite grip. It fully in governance issues relating to the College of needs leadership, and an example within local communities Policing and the decision-making process it may bring of what is acceptable and what is not. I think this is a forward under potential clauses. good step towards that. Gavin Thomas: In short, my answer is yes. This is still The Chair: Mr Williams, do you want to add to that? going through an embryonic stage. I am involved, as the Steve Williams: Yes, I concur with the views of my Police Superintendents Association representative, in colleague. I welcome the streamlining effect that will be the design of the college. That is approaching finality at brought about, but you touched on the point of who the end of this month, with a view to reporting to the will police it, with reduced numbers of police officers. board in July in terms of a broad design for the college We face the second leg of the comprehensive spending itself. In terms of the specific question around conditions review and the cuts that may bring to the police service. etc., there are the three conditions in the Bill for the Our to-do list in the police service—it is almost like Home Secretary: if the college puts forward regulation that—is for ever growing. The difficulties are about who that is unlawful, if there is an emergency and the will fulfil the Bill when it comes in. catch-all, which is anything else the Home Secretary deems not to be right. Those are quite right, and we are Gavin Thomas: If I may amplify that point, there are quite comfortable with that proposal by the Government. a number of factors within antisocial behaviour that, I would suggest, place the risk slightly higher, and they Steve Williams: Those views are mirrored by the are when an individual is a repeat victim—when they Police Federation of England and Wales. We have been have repeatedly experienced antisocial behaviour; when heavily involved from the word go with the process, and they live alone in the community; when they are ill or we continue to be heavily involved with it. So, yes, we have a disability; and when they live in an area of social are happy with that. deprivation. On the two middle points, the police service is dealing The Chair: Thank you very much. Before we move increasingly with what we would term social care issues. on, are there any other questions relating to the police If I narrow that down to mental health, for instance, board or related matters? No? In that case, we now demand within the police service at the moment on move to antisocial behaviour. I note there are a number mental health issues is about 15%, and it is increasing. of questions. The point I am trying to make is that this is not something the police service can do alone. There needs to be a cross-partnership approach. Q8 Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Welcome, gentlemen. Parliament can pass all sorts of laws, but we rely on Citizens, when they are asked about antisocial behaviour, members of your association or federation to enforce quite naturally look at the police service as the organisation some of those laws, and to enable our constituents to that will predominantly be the first responder. We are feel less at risk from antisocial behaviour. If I may, Sir the first emergency service; but, as I said in my first Roger, I shall ask one general question and a specific point, there has to be a longer, sustained approach, supplementary. First, one of the objectives of the Bill is rather than dealing with the end spectrum of the actual to streamline some of the powers that are already in behaviour itself. place. What sort of impact do you think that will have on your members’ abilities to provide enforcement? Q9 Richard Fuller: Two parts of the Bill deal with the closure of premises associated with nuisance or disorder Gavin Thomas: I welcome, first of all, the proposal to and with public spaces protection orders. I am particularly simplify the plethora of orders we have at the moment thinking about no-alcohol zones. From my experience from 19 to six. That builds on the initiative of the in Bedford, you can put up a lot of signs saying “No previous Government to bring antisocial behaviour to Alcohol Zone,” but they are not as well enforced as the fore with respect to legislation. The Bill is the next many residents would wish them to be. Yesterday, Newham step in introducing reform to do with those orders. council lost a court case to close a betting shop that the To go back to your point about enabling police council felt would be a centre for antisocial behaviour. officers—I talk as a chief superintendent who has in the Will the Bill do anything to assist those who wish to see past been an area commander, dealing with some of the enforcement of no-alcohol zones? Will it assist local those issues on the ground, so to speak—the key point I authorities such as Newham council that wish to see want to make is that in my view the problem can never certain premises not licensed because of the implications be solved on the same level as it was actually created. for antisocial behaviour? 9 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 10 Policing Bill Gavin Thomas: I think it will. The conclusion of the anything, it is going to be about leadership, briefing report of Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, people on the new powers and starting to make an “Anti-social Behaviour: Stop the rot” makes the very impact on communities. The key point is putting the good point that to enforce something you need feet on victim first—the person who is suffering the antisocial the ground. In other words, you need police officers and behaviour. Let us not forget that generally speaking—there you need that presence within communities. As my is evidence to support this—victims of antisocial behaviour colleague from the federation said, the service, rightly, is do not contact the police the first time that they experience currently going through change and restructuring to it. Normally, they have repeated experiences before they contribute towards reducing the deficit within the economy, engage with the police service. but we are now coming to the point where there are pinch points within certain constabularies as to whether Q13 Gloria De Piero: That brings me nicely to my we have longer-term sustainable law enforcement or next point. What circumstances can you foresee in revert to a more reactive style of policing, which I think which you would ignore calls one and two on antisocial would be a very severe mistake. behaviour but act if a third call were made? Steve Williams: I agree. Gavin Thomas: There is evidence to support the idea that when someone contacts the police, if there is a Q10 Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Breach of an process within the police for identifying that they are a antisocial behaviour order was a crime pursued by the repeat caller or a repeat victim, or if the area has Crown Prosecution Service. Breach of the new injunction experienced repeat antisocial behaviour, the initial response would be contempt of court, so it would be pursued by on the phone has a key impact on that individual’s you or one of the other agencies. One chief inspector confidence in the service that they will get from the told me that his legal services team thought that the cost police. could be in the region of between £800 and £1,500 per That requires two things, in my view. First, the individual case. Do you agree with that estimate? on the police end of the phone must be properly briefed Gavin Thomas: I cannot comment on that exact figure and aware of what to say and how to recognise that. in terms of cost, but on the overall point you are Secondly, investment must be made in technology that making, yes, there is a cost because we have to have can bring up the number and the caller’s address and people to pull together the case, take it to court and help the person taking the call to assess which factors enforce it, so there is a cost. On what the actual cost is, I need to be raised in terms of risk: whether the caller is cannot assist you. in an area of repeated antisocial behaviour or their address has been subject to antisocial behaviour. I suggest that the latter point about technology is not uniform Q11 Gloria De Piero: Might you see an occasion across the service at the moment, as was picked up in when, because of resource constraints, you take the one of the previous HMIC reports. decision that you cannot afford to pursue the breach of an injunction to prevent nuisance and disorder—an IPNA? Might there be an occasion when that decision Q14 The Chair: We shall continue this line of questioning. had to be taken because of resource and time constraints? Mr Williams, Mr Jackson, is there anything you want to Steve Williams: That is a strong possibility. Yes. add so far? Gavin Thomas: I talk as an area commander. If we Steve Williams: No. were having this conversation three or four years ago, I Tim Jackson: No. would suggest that antisocial behaviour was perhaps not as high on the agenda within policing as it should Q15 Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) have been, partly because, let us be frank, policing was (Con): Mr Thomas, you have referred to the fact that assessed on crime reduction—cutting crime and catching antisocial behaviour has increasing salience in both criminals. There is now acceptance among my colleagues public and political debate. Over the past 15 years, we that antisocial behaviour has as prominent a place in have seen a gradual increase in the number of regulations terms of priority at local level. If you look at some of seeking to tackle antisocial behaviour. Has the accretive, the policing plans that commissioners have introduced accumulative process of legislation aided the implementation across the country, antisocial behaviour is referred to in of the regulations or impeded them? some form or another somewhere in most of those Gavin Thomas: There are a couple of things to say plans. My view is that if the measure came across my about that. I will answer in terms of the partnership desk, it would still have the same priority. approach to the issue. I think that in the past, standards have been variable. There are very good examples across Q12 Gloria De Piero: When the ASBO was first the country of partnership-led approaches to systemic introduced, it took quite a while to get off the ground. I issues within communities suffering from antisocial think there were about 100 ASBOs in the first year of behaviour, but it is not uniform across the country. I operation. How long does it take to get to grips with a think that in some parts there has been more focus on new power? Given that about 1,500 ASBOs, perhaps working together than on working for the public, the slightly more, are issued annually, might we expect to individual victim or the community. I think that there see a reduction in the use of a new power until it gets off has been more discussion about strategy than about the ground? delivering on the ground within communities. Gavin Thomas: This is conjecture on my part, but To answer your question, sometimes the delivery of your point is a good one. I think you may well find a intervention, in terms of using legislation, has taken too dip, so to speak, in terms of officers having to get a grip long. That is a key signal for communities, in terms of on the new legislation and what is actually required. If seeing behaviour taking place on a street or within a 11 Public Bill Committee18 JUNE 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 12 Policing Bill community and then actually seeing something done Q17 Paul Maynard: During the pre-legislative scrutiny about it. The time factor is critical in terms of the of the Bill by the Home Affairs Committee, the hon. confidence of the individual or of the community as a Member for Houghton and Sunderland South gave a whole in seeing not just the police service but partners good example of the impact of cumulative low-level and other people and organisations with power in antisocial behaviour. Can you comment on whether the communities having an impact. If I, as a victim of lower threshold that will be introduced for antisocial antisocial behaviour, report something to the police or behaviour will assist in tackling that? Can you reflect on to my local authority or commissioner and then nothing some of the risks attached to it, in terms of the increasing happens for six months or so, I suggest that it would not criminalisation of what has hitherto been legal activity? instil a great deal of confidence, first, that it is being How will the threshold work in practice, and what are taken seriously and, secondly, that something is actually the dangers associated with it, in your view? being done about it. Gavin Thomas: That goes back to my earlier point. I understand perfectly the rationale for reducing the Q16 Paul Maynard: There is a persistent perception threshold, to capture the point in your first question among my constituents in central Blackpool that low-level about behaviour that was perhaps not being picked up antisocial behaviour continues to go ignored. It is the previously. The accumulative effect of that and perhaps bane of their lives in many ways. As you may have just some other elements of legislation on a service that is hinted, do you feel that the existing suite of tools at being cut, in reality, will have an impact. Membership your disposal has been adequate for tackling that persistent, of my association has fallen by 20%. We need to be low-level type of antisocial behaviour rather than sudden realistic here in terms of what we are aspiring to achieve eruptions of more visible antisocial behaviour? with the legislation and introduce in communities, and Gavin Thomas: You are almost in a cycle of legislating the reality of delivering it. for the next series of behaviours within society. What I mean by that is: are we going to legislate for more behaviour that we probably cannot even recognise at the Q18 Paul Maynard: We are all familiar with the case moment and is taking place on the internet? It is a of Fiona Pilkington, who sadly took her own life and recognised fact that cyber-bullying of pupils at school is that of her daughter because the low-level antisocial taking place on the internet. That is a growing phenomenon, behaviour to which they were subjected reached a peak. and it was not even on the radar when the first legislation To what extent do you think the multi-agency working was introduced in this country. Already, we are seeing and the community trigger that you have been talking new behaviours that will predominate in communities. of will lead to greater flexibility to anticipate newly My point is that some of these things—nuisance, emerging forms of antisocial behaviour? To what extent loud noise or litter, which blight people’s lives and are do you think they will enlarge the toolkit available to there all the time—have a cumulative effect on how the police to tackle effectively a problem that they people feel about the place they are living in. Legislation recognise they have failed to tackle in the past? has a part, but I emphasise that it needs true partnership. Gavin Thomas: There are two points on that proposal We have to recognise that it cannot be just process-led in the legislation. First, I do not have a problem with the or structure-led; we need to understand the area to proposal at all; in fact, I think it is a good signal because which we are delivering services, and if there are graffiti people will feel empowered, when they feel that nothing and litter or repeated calls about loud noise, we need to is being done, to come forward and put that community see that something is actually done about it. trigger together. My second point would be—again, going back to my experience as an area commander—that The Chair: Mr Jackson, did you want to add to that? it would be disappointing, and I choose that word Tim Jackson: I wanted to come back on an earlier carefully, if I or my teams had not recognised or picked question, if I might. up on the fact that there was a systemic issue within one of the communities I was policing. It would be a failure The Chair: Please do. if the community felt it had to install that trigger for me Tim Jackson: We mentioned earlier that dealing with or my teams to deal with the problem. However, I do antisocial behaviour is an issue that is wider than the not have a problem in terms of that being part of the police can deal with alone. It is very much a multi-agency legislation. It is a good signal in terms of empowering approach. One of the challenges is encouraging other people within communities: when they feel that nothing agencies to contribute as effectively as they can to is being done, they can come forward and instil some aspects of the work that they may not see as their main action to remedy their experience. priorities. When you have strong crime and disorder reduction partnerships, that problem tends to be less apparent. Where partnerships are not quite as effective, Q19 Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): Antisocial there are limits to how you can encourage other agencies behaviour causes real misery in people’s lives, and a lot to play their part effectively. of my casework deals with antisocial behaviour. There Steve Williams: I do not think that the legislation has has been talk so far from all three of you about feet on hindered our ability to deal with antisocial behaviour. I the ground. We are trying to come up with a solution in think sheer officer numbers is one of the issues in terms of addressing antisocial behaviour. Mr Williams, dealing as effectively as we would like with the problem, if you had to prioritise and choose between feet on the as are the budget restraints that we are facing within the ground—the importance of officers on the ground—or service and the demands that are being placed on the an overhaul of ASBOs, which would you choose as a police service. It is about those difficulties, rather than solution? the legislation; it is having a sufficient number of police Steve Williams: It would be feet on the ground—officers officers to deal effectively and properly with the problem. on the ground—without a shadow of a doubt. 13 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 14 Policing Bill Q20 Simon Danczuk: Mr Jackson, on the issue of trigger, so we want you to do something” would not be ASBOs being weakened, do you think that law-abiding a very good approach; it would not instil confidence residents will be happy that breaches cannot now lead within communities if they had continually to implement to a criminal conviction? the trigger. Tim Jackson: My suspicion is probably they will not be. Q25 Bridget Phillipson: What local police officers tell me is that one incident is one too many, and they want Q21 Simon Danczuk: Mr Thomas, on the community to deal with the first incident when it arises. Do you trigger, my understanding is that in the pilot that has think the powers set out here will make it easier to deal been conducted, there were more than 44,000 reports of with such incidents immediately? antisocial behaviour, yet the community trigger was Gavin Thomas: That goes back to the point made by activated only 13 times. Do you think the trigger is my colleague from the federation. You need police proving successful? officers available to intervene and to start to work on Gavin Thomas: That goes back to my second point that problem. At the moment some constabularies are earlier. I see this as very different from how it has been at the tipping point, depending on what the future put—an extremis. I would turn it around and say that holds, as to whether they can continue to invest in that actually it is a success: the fact that the antisocial level of policing, or whether they have to go back to a behaviour issues—[Interruption.] Sorry, I had a small more basic level. jug malfunction then. Steve Williams: It is about priorities and cutting your I see it as a signal of success, actually— cloth to suit. You are absolutely right: there are those pinch points now across the country. People are having Simon Danczuk: That it has not been used? to prioritise what is policed and what is not. Gavin Thomas: Well, no, the fact that those behaviours Gavin Thomas: Can I give an example? We are an have been picked up before the community felt it had to emergency service at core, so if somebody phones up for install the trigger. I am sure that people might have a help in an emergency, there is a realistic expectation that different view, but that is my interpretation. we will get a service quickly to them. Harm is being done to them or their property now. If I have finite The Chair: If I can interrupt just for one moment: resources, that will be prioritised against anything else. I although Mr Danczuk has chosen to put his questions have to deliver that emergency service to those people individually to members of the panel, it is open to who are in critical need. It would be a significant anybody else to respond as well, if you wish to do so. mistake if the police service moved towards that, which is where we were decades ago, rather than starting to Q22 Simon Danczuk: Thank you, Sir Roger. Does the deal, with partners, with those systemic issues that we panel have any concern that the Bill does not guarantee have been discussing today around antisocial behaviour. a response from the police or a local authority in terms of the community trigger, but simply guarantees a Q26 Bridget Phillipson: On the issue of partnership review? Do you think residents will be happy with that? working, all the major public services are facing pressure Gavin Thomas: I do not think I can actually answer on budgets. Given the pressures that all those agencies that. There will have to be a test when it is introduced as are facing, whether it is the council, health authorities to how people feel about that. or the police, do you think that partnership working is likely to improve? Or do you think that the financial Simon Danczuk: We will have to wait and see. restraint and problems that public services are facing might lead to a reduction in the good partnership Gavin Thomas: Yes. working that has developed in the area of antisocial Steve Williams: I think the public rightly demand and behaviour? expect a quality police service, and it is about delivery. Gavin Thomas: I ran through my assessment of how I felt some partnerships were acting, in terms of taking Q23 Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland time and having more of an introspective, rather than South) (Lab): Do you think there is a risk that the an outer, perspective around the victim and people. community trigger could have the reverse effect—that if There is an opportunity here for police and crime you have the threshold, you will wait to see whether you commissioners to engage with their local authorities, have overreached that threshold, rather than taking have those conversations and those relationships with action immediately when an incident is reported? key people in communities, start pushing some buttons Gavin Thomas: If the question is asking if, as a and getting people to start talking and acting. There is professional police officer, I wait for the community to still the ability to do this. It is not necessarily purely come to me when it reaches that trigger point, no. down to resources and funding. Having said that, the other point I was going to make around partnerships is Q24 Bridget Phillipson: I expect that cases will be that with these initiatives that are put forward to deal dealt with as and when they are reported, but could it with antisocial behaviour, you need an idea of what lead to a feeling of waiting a bit longer to see how your cost is, in terms of the money you are putting into serious it becomes, rather than working with agencies it and the effect it has. more quickly and more effectively? Gavin Thomas: It could, but I would again go back to Q27 Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab): This is a the point I made earlier: antisocial behaviour is a priority, broad question. Could each of you say which parts of in terms of its prominence in delivering local policing. the Bill you welcome, because it will make you do your Professionally, just waiting in my glorified office for the jobs more effectively, and which bits you are looking at community to come and say, “It has now reached a with horror? 15 Public Bill Committee18 JUNE 2013 Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 16 Policing Bill Tim Jackson: The entire Bill? I do not know whether back to my earlier point, we do not know why those members of the Committee were going to touch on this powers are being sought anyway, or what the practical aspect, but one of the areas that I am particularly application of them would be. Powers that are intrusive interested in is the additional powers for the Independent and coercive should be given only to allow organisations Police Complaints Commission. The Bill contains some to do the jobs that they need to do, and there should not proposals that we broadly welcome. My association is be a surfeit of power. very supportive of the IPCC being effectively resourced to be able to do its job properly. We certainly are The Chair: Ms Champion slightly pre-empted a route supportive of the proposal that private contractors can that I had intended to go down, which was to try to find come within the scope of IPCC investigations. However, the time to invite all three of you to make a final in terms of independent investigations, we would want statement and put anything on the record that has not to consider whether the same powers should be given to been covered. What often happens at the start of sittings police officers, in relation to those who are supervised such as this is that the Committee takes a time to get to or managed, to investigate private contractors. It seems know each other and get warmed up. Mr Rutley and rather odd that only the IPCC can investigate private Mr Barclay have both indicated that they would like to contractors, but we broadly welcome that proposal. put brief questions to you. I propose to take those two We also welcome the proposal to provide a statutory and then allow Mr Thomas and Mr Williams to place framework requiring a response to Independent Police any brief comments on the record, if we have time. If Complaints Commission recommendations, but suggest that takes us past 10 o’clock, so be it. that it should have the power to apply its recommendations to all public bodies, because we as the police service do Q28 David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con): We talked not work in isolation. earlier about the community triggers, and antisocial behaviour is certainly a big issue across Cheshire, where We also welcome the proposal for the power to direct Mr Mosley and I represent constituencies. I am keen to unsatisfactory performance procedures. That was an look at restorative justice and, in particular, the community oversight in previous regulations, which this proposal remedy side of the equation. I wonder what each of you now seeks to correct. We do have some concerns. Initially, feels are the advantages to introducing community remedy, the proposal to allow the IPCC to obtain third-party and how do you believe your members would seek to data was something that we were not cited on, in the enforce and use it? evidence as to why that was required. Having had a Gavin Thomas: From my experience, a level of training subsequent meeting with the IPCC, it is now apparent is required, on behalf of the officers, to bring community to us that there are circumstances in which it is entirely resolution in. Having said that, and going back to my appropriate for the IPCC, in non-criminal investigations, earlier point, the benefits are that it cuts down the time to access the data that will be helpful to its investigations, between the behaviour being identified and a resolution and it is entirely pragmatic and sensible to do so. that is visible, not only to the victim of that antisocial However, we do think that it is intrusive, and that behaviour, but to the community as a whole. therefore there should be proper measures in place around justification, necessity and proportionality. Again, My third point is that there is an element here around the same availability of those powers should also apply unnecessarily criminalising some members of our to the police service when dealing with those investigations. community, who may well have just made a mistake. I can give you an example from my command some years I am saving the one proposal that I am most concerned ago. Two young boys got into a golf club, got hold of a about till last, which is the extension of powers under buggy and had a joyride round the golf club. They the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. Despite our caused a bit of damage and got caught. There had been best efforts, we have yet to come up with any justification no previous notice to the police or anybody else. It was for the extension of those powers. PACE is primarily dealt with very quickly, with the two boys and their about protecting the rights of people who are detained parents writing letters of apology to the golf club and in custody. The IPCC uses police custody suites on spending two very long weekends repairing the damage those occasions—thankfully it is only on a few occasions— and painting the golf club. They were not criminalised; when it is necessary to arrest police officers. Most they were not put into the system. It demonstrated to interviews take place outside custody centres. It seems them and their friends in the local community that that rather odd to us that there is a requirement to extend behaviour was not acceptable, and the golf club had the codes of practice to give certain authorisations to restitution. the IPCC. One of the key things around PACE in relation to the Q29 Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) exercise of those powers when they are carried out by (Con): How many staff currently work in professional police officers is that the person making the decision is standards across England? independent in the investigation, which is critical. Quite Gavin Thomas: I do not know the answer to that often, the level of authority is at superintendent level. question exactly. All I can say to you is that, from my What we are concerned about is how the IPCC would experience, there have been reductions in staff working have that degree of independence in making its own in professional standards departments. In a previous decisions, and also the levels at which that authorisation role, I was head of professional standards for my is made. It is not apparent to me how the grades of constabulary. Professional standards, per se, dealt with senior investigator and deputy senior investigator relate the day to day issues, but more serious issues—say, to the ranks within the police service. They do not corruption—were investigated by detective officers. sound quite the same to me, and if such powers are to Professional standards do not, per se, investigate everything be put in place, they should be at a level that is consistent from lower-scale complaints right up to large-scale with those levels of authority in the police, but to go corruption. 17 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and 18 Policing Bill Q30 Stephen Barclay: We are going on to a session corruption, or it is about potentially getting rid of staff with the IPCC, where the intention is to transfer staff who do not have the required skill sets and getting in from professional standards. I was struck by the Home new staff in the IPCC. Affairs Committee report, which suggested that in a Gavin Thomas: With respect, it is all dependent on four-year period there were 8,500 allegations of corruption, the requirements of the IPCC. The proposal being put but only 13 were found guilty, yet 200 officers a year—800 forward by Government is for a professional standards in that period—resigned in the midst of their disciplinary department. You asked me the question in terms of panels. In addition, more than 30,000 complaints came corruption and I am giving you my answer in terms of in, yet just 130 were picked up by the IPCC. The key my experience. In my experience, when I have had to issue is going to be the transfer of staff from professional investigate a high level of corruption, I referred to units standards, but you cannot tell us how many have been outside professional standards departments who were transferred? brought in for a period of time to investigate that Gavin Thomas: No, I cannot tell you how many, but particular matter. the point I am making is that the skill sets within most professional standards departments are not the skill Stephen Barclay: It is just a bit odd that— sets that would be investigating those higher levels of corruption. Q32 The Chair: Order. We have now reached the end Stephen Barclay: In other words, the majority of of the time allocated for questions. I am prepared to use corruption cases have been passed to people who did my powers to extend that time, but I have already not have the skill sets to investigate them? indicated that I intended to give Mr Williams and Gavin Thomas: Who do not have the skill sets to Mr Thomas the opportunity to make a very brief final investigate them? statement, because it is important that we make sure that they have covered the ground that they wish to Stephen Barclay: That is what you just said. cover as well as the ground that hon. Members on the Gavin Thomas: No, the referral would be made through Committee wish to cover. the professional standards department, and an assessment Steve Williams: I do not know whether Mr Jackson would be made in terms of the case itself. Generally has had sight of my brief in relation to the IPCC issues, speaking, professional standards departments are made but, for the federation, I fully agree with the comments up of two parts. That department deals with—I will not he made in respect of that. If there is anything that has say run of the mill—the complaint cases that come into not been covered today, the Police Federation of England constabularies. Then there is a very small internal and Wales is more than happy to provide any written investigations unit, which is mainly intelligence-led, and report that you may require when going forward with deals with higher-level corruption cases. From my the Bill. Please, just let us know. experience, when there is a case to investigate there would be engagement with my IPCC around that, and The Chair: That is very helpful, and I am sure that the an investigation would be marshalled using specialist Committee will appreciate it. officers from outside professional standards departments. Gavin Thomas: The part of the Bill that I really Stephen Barclay: With respect, Mr Thomas, that is welcome is on the College of Policing, which is a real not what the figures suggest. I thought in your evidence opportunity for the police service in England and Wales. a moment ago you said that professional standards There is potential to create iconic status not only within departments do not have the skill sets to investigate the country, but also worldwide. My plea is could we corruption. please start working quickly towards royal charter status? Gavin Thomas: No, I did not say that. Tim Jackson: Sir Roger, I wonder if you would indulge me for two sentences. One of the things I forgot to say Stephen Barclay: Right, so they do. The 8,500 cases when talking about the IPCC—one of the areas that is a of corruption would be investigated by professional current omission—is the fact that there is no method of standards departments. making a complaint against the IPCC. If the powers are Gavin Thomas: With respect, I did not say that either. to be extended to be intrusive and coercive—additional What I said to you is that the higher levels of corruption PACE and things like that—there really needs to be a within policing, in my experience, are investigated by method whereby people who are dissatisfied can make a officers outside professional standards departments. The complaint that does not involve going to a judicial experience is that these sometimes take some time to review. investigate. They require high levels of skill sets that some professional standards departments do not have. The Chair: Thank you, Mr Jackson; you got your Professional standards departments are set up for retaliation in last. That brings us to the end of the time complaints, which come in daily. When you are talking we have available. On behalf of the Committee, I thank about a long-term, systemic corruption investigation, both the Police Superintendents Association and the or a high-level corruption investigation, you have to Police Federation for your time. We know that you are bring in resources to help to do that. In terms of the busy people and we are indebted to you. That was very figures you have, that may not reflect the true figure for helpful indeed. officers that are actually allocated from other departments or other units within the constabulary to investigate it. Ordered, That further consideration be now adjourned. —(Mr Syms.) Q31 Stephen Barclay: It may be that I am being a bit slow, but I am confused. Either this is about transferring 10.3 am to the IPCC staff who have the skill sets to investigate Adjourned till this day at Two o’clock.