175 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] working of the 176 Ministry of Home Affairs [Shri H. Hanumanthappa] the House that it the Government has violated its promises, it would work according to the Constitution. has violated the Act, the rules and the Everytime the Prime Minister says: I want to provisions. It should not appoint a tribunal on take the House into confidence, people into the Cauvery waters and it should continue the confidence, States into confidence and work negotiations., Madam, 40 million people are on a consensus But unfortunately this worried today on the Government's stand... Government which claims consultations and (Interruptions) consensus has deviated from its promises on SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY (Pon- the floor of the House as well as in the dicherry): Madam, for resolving the dispute election manifesto and also given by the my State Government wanted him to appoint President on the 12th March, 1990 in his a tribunal. Madam,... (Interruptions) Presidential Address. THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I have not Madam, contrary to all these promises, the permitted you. You please take your seat. Solicitor-General of India on behalf of the Thirty-five miautes have already gone. We Government of India has taken a different have three and a half hours discussion on this stand in the Supreme Court by saying: we do important... (Interruptions). Please take your not want to negotiate, we do not want to seat. continue consultations... (In. terruptions) I have not yet completed. DISCUSSION ON THE WORKING SHRI V. GOPALSAMY (Tamil Nadu): The OF THE MINISTRY OF HOME Government has taken the correct stand. AFFAIRS (Contd)

SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: I have not DR. NARREDDY THULASI yet completed. I do not knew why Mr. REDDY (Andhra Pradesh): Madam, last time Gopalsamy is monopolising every answer. I I spoke in Telugu on this subject. am sorry... {Interruptions) I want to take one THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Are you or two minutes more. I have not yet speaking in Telugu today also? Completed. Please allow me. DR. NARREDDY THULASI The Goevrnment has an obligation to REDDY. Yes, Madam, * Madam Deputy consult and to resolve this issue. The Chairman. In order to solve the problem of President assured in his Presidential Address Kashmir that has assumed the shape of on the 12th March, 1990 that this Government Seshnag with many heads, a multi-pronged is committed to the consultation process. The approach has to be undertaken through Prime Minister assured that disputes in strengthening the border security of our between the States will be resolved in the Country, by being vigilant in maintaining the Inter-State Councils. Contrary to all these law and order situation of the state of Jammu promises, the Solicitor-General has taken the & Kashmir mir, by removing the anti-India stand in the Supreme Court... feelings and hatred from the minds of the people of Kashmir and by bringing them back SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Correct. to the national mainstream through various development programmes. This multipronged SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: He said: we approach should not only be political but also do not want to consult them. The Supreme socio-economic. We should make them Court has directed the Government to appoint believe that the living a tribunal on \he Cauvery waters. Madam, I think *English Translation of the original speech in Telgu

177 Discussion on the [ 7 MAY 1990 ] working of the 178 Home Affairs Ministry of ing the unity and integrity of our country, the standards of Indian people are far more better problems like that of Ram Janma Bhoomi will than those of Pakistan. If Pakistan does not help the neighbouring countries which are stop interfering in our internal affairs, we have waiting for a right opportunity. Taking all to warn Pakistan that we will be forced to these things into consideration, all the political intervene in the internal affairs of Pakistan parties and different groups should work with like Sind and Baluchistan problems. If patience, intelligence, discretion and co- Pakistan does not stop organising training operation. This is very very important. camps for Kashmiri militants, then we have to warn Pakistan that we would be forced to Madam, now let us examine the law and attack and destroy the training camps. If they order situation in my own State of Andhra do not heed to our warning then we should Pradesh which is ruled by the Congress Party. convert our warnings into action. We have to A moral poem from 'Sumati Sataka' in Telugu change our nuclear policies if need be. India implies that if an unworthy person is given should manufacture the atom bomb which will act as a de-terrant for Pakistan. We have to power he cannot prove worthy of the post and expedite our efforts in getting the Pakistan his old habits die hard. The people of Andhra occupied Kashmir back to Jammu and Pradesh forgot this moral. They defeated the Kashmir. Telugu Desam Party and voted the Congress Party to power. Chenna Reddy was made the Another important issue is the Punjab Chief Minister and now they are facing the problem. Since a discussion on Punjab took consequences. They are repenting, but what is place a few days back, I do not want to speak the use when it is too late? on that any more. In all the districts of Telangana in Andhra Thirdly, in the North-East, Assam Pradesh there is no Government. Naxalites are is another problem. Assam is facing ruling there. Whatever they say is the law. problems created by the U.L.F.A. Officials are dancing to their tunes. If a bore- and the BODOs. The ULFA forces well is required for a village, or a bus is of Assam are trying to separate required the representatives of the people have Assam from India. By looting the to try for years together whereas the Naxalites Village people and banks, they are can get it done in a jiffy. The meetings and collecting huge amounts of funds conventions proposed by the Naxalites are with which they are purchasing being organised by the authorities themselevs. arms and ammunition. With In the meeting held at Inderavalli, the District the help of these weapons they are killing Collector distributed electoral packets to all their enemies. This is how ULFA is creating the participants to brave the sun stroke. You can imagine the situation there. problem in Assam. So, Madam, the Assam Government has to deal firmly with the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; Mr. Reddy, ULFA forces. The Central Government has to you started your speech the other day. I must remind you that your party's time is 12 co-operate with the Assam State Government minutes only. I think, Mr. Mohd. Khaleelur to deal with these forces. Behman also wants to speak. If you want to take his time also, I have no objection. Another important problem is that of Ram Please abide by the time-limit Janma Bhoomi-Babri Masjid issue. In future the situation there may worsen. While Punjab and Kashmir on the borders are challeng- 179 Discussion on the [ RAJYA SABHA ] working of the 180 Ministry of Home Affairs because we have very little time and there are Shri Nandamoori Taraka Rama Rao was too many names. Only you will speak? ruling, the same Congress Party and Rajiv (Interruptions) Gandhi said that Rama Rao was running away from Naxalites and humiliated him. Now I SHRI M. M. JACOB (Kerala): Madam, if question the Congress Party and Rajiv Gandhi necessary, we can extend the time by one in this august House as to what they are doing hour, for the discussion; of course, if the now? Madam, from the time Congress Party Government agrees. I do not know. came into power riots and arson, murders, house burning and atrocities on weaker sections, THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: At 4 P.M., Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes have we have an important discussion; about increased. Persons accused in criminal cases Harijans. Members are very much concerned and misappropriation of funds have become over this issue. I think the Home Minister Ministers and are continuing in office. There should complete the reply before that. If the is no protection for life and character of House agrees, there will be no lunch-hour people. A person notorious for mis- today. Of course, Members can have lunch. appropriating funds in co-operative sector has become the Minister of co-operatives. SHRI M. M. JACOB; During the lunch- A person who was found to have hour, we have a meeting of the party leaders. committed illegal transportation of timber is made Minister of Transport. The THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The leaders person found to have certain criminal cases can go for the meeting. Members will be here. registered against him in Mahboob-nagar Police station is made in charge of Home Affairs. The Government withdrew the SHRI M. M. JACOB: Lunch-hour shall not murder case of Chakala Sundara Rao just be curtailed. before the judgement. To save their M.L.A. Shri Jakkampudi Ram Mohan Rao the THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Then, I will Congress Government i.e. Chen- have to cut down the names you have given. nareddy's Government, withdrew the case. Agreed? Either you have lunch, or, you cut Such incidents were never witnessed in the down the number of Members going to speak. History of India. In this centenary Mr. Reddy, please conclude now. Your time is celebration year of Indian Constitution over. maker and Bharat Ratna Shri Ambedkar, if a Harijan Labourer in Andhra Pradesh had to DR. NARREDDY THULASI REDDY: For face injustice, do these Congress Party people the Bellampalli meeting, the officers of the have any right to speak about Harijans? All Singareni colleries made all the arrangements. the 2,344 cases registered by the Police for the For the meeting to be held at Warangal,, the arson, looting and atrocities carried near news came that the collections crossed one Vijayawada area were all withdrawn by the crore rupees mark. A few days back, in Government. The Congress Government is Siddhipeta of Medak district, Speaker encouraging criminal mentality among the Ramachandra Reddy was held hostage and people. was threatened with dire consequences. Recently they attack-eel Ex-Air Chief Marshal, Latif at his residence and took away SHRI JAGESH DESAI (Maharashtra): his set pistol. In this way Naxalites are running Madam, I want to point out one thing. The a parallel Government in Andhra Pradesh. Minister is not listening. The Minister is not Once when our leader at all serious. It is very unfortunate. 181 Discussion on the [ 7 MAY 1990 ] working of the 182 Ministry of Home Affairs SHRI KAMAL MORARKA (Rajasthan): are now occupying the treasury benches. So, Madam, on a point of order. While sitting in the National Front Government has a very the Opposition, a number of times I have great responsibility. Ignoring this historic fact raised the same point Mr. Jacob will bear me if the National Front Government indulges out. itself in internal disputes and factionalism the future generations of India will not excuse DR. NARREDDY THULASI them. In the same way all the political parties REDDY: Madam, the atrocities meted out by should give importance to the country's the Congress (I) on the Harijans of Nagari, interests but not to the interests of their Atmakuru, Batakamma Kunta will be written parties. We should prove to the whole world with blood on the pages of our history. As we that the 80 crores of Indians can work hand- cannot avoid reading about Ravana in the in-hand for the unity and integrity of the History of Rama, we cannot avoid these country. Unless we bring about the feeling incidents which will be written in blood in the that, if needed, the people of our country can History of Andhra Pradesh. conquer the whole world unitedly, the problems cannot be solved. So, I wish whole heartedly that all the political parties, Madam, another problem is the regional especially the National Front will think on the inbalances. Rayalseema is a backward area. said terms. I thank you for giving me this Rayalseema is said to receive the lowest opportunity. rainfall in all over India. People of Rayalseema suffer from scarcity of water in Thank you. summer and less rainfall in rainy season. The farmers of Rayalseema are born in debt, they THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Before I call live in debt and pass on the debt to their Shri Sitaram Kesri, as we have a long children. Rayalseema is backward discussion and at 4 o'clock we have another industrially, educationally and in many other discussion and I would like the Home fields. Due to this, many regional agitations Minister to reply before that, I request took place. Once upon a time Rayalseema was Members that today they should agree to known as 'Ratanalaseema' during Krishna dispense with the lunch hour. Deva Raya period which means it was a prosperous area. Today if it is in this pitiable SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: Yes. state what must be the reason? I would like everyone of you to think over this. In order to THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: So it is so solve the problem of regional imbalances and agreed. There will be no lunch hour today. improve the backward areas like Rayalseema it is necessary that the Centre and the State Governments allocate some funds for their development.

Madam, if we take into consideration, every State, every district, every village, all have many problems. Congress Party was defeated as it could not solve these problems and ;s sitting on the Opposition side. With the confidence that National Front Government would solve the problems they voted for them and they

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the nation first, keep secularism first. Don't talk about my mistake and your mistake. If you are covering your mistake by quoting my mistake, then, it will lead the nation to disaster. My opinion is this. If you want to cover your mistake by quoting my mistake, then, you will lead the nation to disaster, you will never lead the nation to suiiess, I tell you, AN HON. MEMBER: There is no such my friend. Stop this. Come to the reality, thing in Tamil Nadu. come to the fact, come to the nation's cause. Don't talk about personal causes and about SHRI SITARAM KESRI; There is. You parties. Nation is greater than parties, either do not know. I tell you. I don't want to quote. your party or my party. I advise you. I don't want to go into details. But I can tell you, my friend, if you discuss with me.

SHRI V. GOPALSAMY (Tamil Nadu): He I am talking, when I am talking, my friend, is speaking about what happened four years Mr. Gopalsamy, with 60 years of my public ago. life before me. But I see today the country is not on the right path, but towards disaster. We SHRI SITARAM KESRI: I am not charging your Government. Why are you have ourselves suffered so many times. I worried? I am talking about the circumstances suffered seven-and-a-half years. I have also created in the border areas, particularly either contributed. I am proud that when J. P. was on the seashore or on the frontier. What is coming out of the Hazaribagh Jail in 1972 happening I am telling you. I may be wrongly after being released, I gave him my shoulder. informed, but whatever information (I have got, I am explaining to you, So, when I see that the nation is going to disintegrate, I don't charge you, I don't charge SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Correct, correct. my friends. But the circumstances are leading But the malady has been created by your us towards disaster. This is my only request Government. and this is what I say. You are in power. So, SHRI SITARAM KESRI: That I told you, save the country. Stop charging and counter- that I tell you, every mistake has been done by charging because the country is in danger. me. Because of that mistake you have come Don't take it lightly. Take it seriously. God has there. But you are so great that you are not blessed you and brought you in power. Of correcting it. You are making the same mistake. (Interruptions) Mr. Gopalsamy, you course, there might be some mistakes on my are charging. You want to justify your part. I never disown those mistakes. But you mistake by saying that that mistake was done must do your duty. The Congress party came by us and saying that that is why that mistake to power on the basis of communal harmony. is right. Swaraj was not brought about only by Gandhi Ji. It had been handed over to our secular SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: You are correct. You could make these charges after four leader. To give stability to Swaraj and to years. democracy Gandhi Ji had laid stress on the interests of the minorities and also on the SHRI SITARAM KESRI: I pray you. See interests of the Scheduled Castes and the country. I request you -to keep the nation Scheduled Tribes. So, my request to my first, keep the *country first, keep the integrity of friends on the treasury benches is that they 189 Discussion on working [ 7 MAY 1990 ] of Home Ministry 190 should tell their Government and their people that the country is passing through grave crisis and trouble and that it may disintegrate.

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'The Central Government should have the supremacy and it has the supremacy.'

Delhi Metropolitan Council is hardly a place where Delhiwalas can decide about their own fate. It is a debating society.

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'The objectives of the scheme are as follows:'

'One of them is to register bona fide residents and to collect reliable information regarding....'

'We will do all these to establish the identity of the said infiltrators'.

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THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN): Another five minutes.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN): You have already taken 25 minutes. 201 Discussion on working [ 7 MAY 1990 ] of Home Ministry 202

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN): You could take another seven minutes.

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THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN): Normally the Member is not interrupted during his maiden speech.

SHRI JAGESH DESAI: Maiden speech is not interrupted.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI- MATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN): Please do not interrupt him.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN): You can address the Chair. Please ignore interruptions.

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The Central Government should have he supremacy and it has the supremacy.

Delhi Metropolitan Cbuncil is hardls a place of where Delhtwatos can fc-cide about their own fate It is a de-fcatiBg society.

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The objectives of the seheme are

One of them is to register bona ftde residents and to collect reliable information regarding.....

'we will do all all these to establish the identity of the said infiltrators'

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221 Discussion on working [7 MAY, 1990] of Home Ministhy 'ill

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Wake up Otherwise the country will go to dogs." or something of thai. sort The word may be mine But that is what he said.

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WHts VICE CHAIRMAN. You have alread taken 25 minutes

THE V1CE-CHAIMAN: You could take another seven minutes.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN\ SHRI MATI JAYANTHI NATRAJAN)

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THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI- MATI JAYANTHU NATRAJAN): Normally to Member is not interrup-ted during his maiden speech.

SHRI SAGESH OESAI: Maiden speech is not interrupted.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN Please donot interrupt ta-:.

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MAH JAYANTHI NATARAJAN) 241 Discussion on working [7 MAY, 1990] of Home Ministry 242

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rural background are less corrupt than those who studied in English-medium public schools. English is the biggest hurdle in the progress of the Urdu language."

Madam, he made matters worse by assuring that the Government was seriously considering closing down the 1,500 English- medium public schools and missionary schools in the State to end the dual education- standards. This remark has provoked protests from the three Bishops of Lucknow and from the Christian missionary schools. Because of such remarks made by the Chief Minister himself, hoodlums had the audacity, guts to attack the missionary schools. They have gone berserk. On January 22, a group of hoodlums went on a rampage, attacking some of the mis- sionary schools in the city of Lucknow. It seems that they told the Principals that they were putting into practice what the Chief Minister wanted.

Madam, our Constitution is very clear. The minorities should be pro tected. Every day in Parliament we are clamouring for protecting the in terest of the minorities. Article 30 of the Constitution of In- SHRI V. GOPALASAMY: Madam Vice- dia is clear. All minorities, whether based on Chairman, I am thankful to you for giving me religion or language, have the right to this opportunity to speak on the performance establish and administer educational of the Home Ministry. institutions of their choice.

Madam, I am terribly sorry to point out that Madam, it would be pertinent on my part to a disastrous policy is being pursued in some of quote the judgement of the Supreme Court, a the States in India, which goes totally against portion of the judgement of the Supreme the assurances given by the late Pandit Court in the Sidhrajbhai Sabbi and others vs. Jawaharlal Nehru to allay the fears of the the State of Bombay, 1963: I quote: people coming from the non-Hindi-speaking States. We cannot afford to forget the concept "In the eye of the Constitution which was applauded by Pandit Nehru, that no distinction is made between the unity could be maintained only if we English language and the language recognize diversity. But, Madam, recently, the spoken by other Indian minorities Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh has started a ___ It is as such an Indian langu tirade against English. He has crossed all age today, as much recognised by reasonable limits. I would like to quote, with the Constitution and as much agony and pain, what he has stated: entitled to protection as any other language spoken by any other sec "English language is the biggest cruse tion or community in this country on this country and the State. This ___ Where, however a minority language breeds corruption. The proof is that boys from a 251 Discussion on working [ 7 MAY l990 ] of Home Ministry 252

like the Anglo-Indian community... I tfighth Schedule of the Constitution as one has the fundamental right to conserve its of the national languages. It is the official language, script and culture under Article language of Nagaland. Today, will the Hindi 29(1) and has the right to establish and fanatics go to the North-East and say, admins-ter educational institutions of their "Abolish English?" No. But, cutting across choce under Article 30(1), surely then there party lines this jingoism and fanaticism is must be implicit in such fundamental right, the raising its head nowadays. It is very right to impart instruction... in their own dangerous for the unity and integrity of language.... The police power of the State the country, j am pained to say that after the to determine the medium of instruction arrival of" the British only the unity was must yield to this fundamental right... and established in. this Indian Penisula. So, cannot "be permitted tp run counter to it." when isomebody from North UP or Bihar gays that English is a foreign language, to Again there is a judgement from the me Hindi is equally foreign. There may be Supreme Court in the D.A.V. College, disadvantages if it is a foreign language, but Bhatinda vs. the State of Punjab case, these people have learnt the Hindi language 1071. I quote: from their mother's milk. They have got that advantage. But when they say English "It is also worthy to note that no State is an alien language, that disadvantage is has the legislative competence to prescribe evenly distributed throughout the country. any particular medium of instruction in respect of higher education or research and scientific or technical Instruction At one point of time when Mr. Ravi Shankar Shukla, the then Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh, was advocating the The Anglo-India community has been propagation of Hindi, he was giving his own visibly hurt by the Chief Minister's stand. treatise that the people from South India need They see it as an attack on their own mother not be bothered, that they could easily study tongue. Peter Fanthome, Vice-President of and learn the language—English and Hindi. their Anglo-Indian Association said: To this patronising lecture Pt. Nehru gave his own advice note: "Our community is spread all over India and we have blended with the Indian spirit, but our mother tongue is English and that is "Is your approach going to be a why an attack on our language hurts us democratic approach or what might be emotionally. It makes us feel alien in our termed as an authoritarian approach? In own land. We are Indians and by some of the speeches I have listened to here threatening to ban English, our mother and elsewhere, there is very much a tone of tongue. you are removing me from my own authoritarianism, very much a tone of the soil. You are making me a stranger in my Hindi-speaking areas being the centre of own country!" things in India, the centre of gravity, others being just the fringe of India. This is not Madam, at times we coming from Non- only an incorrect approach, but is also a Hindi States feel as strangers, aliens in our dangerous approach." own land, in the capital city of Delhi. English is the mother tongue of the Anglo-Indian community. Our persistent demand is that That is why our leader of the DMK party in English should be included in the Parliament Shri Murasoli Maran, brought in and moved a 253 Discussion on working [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Home Ministry 254

Private Member's Resolution to give a fices made by the youths in Tamil Nadu constitutional guarantee to the assurances cutting across party affiliations in the year given by Pandit Nehru. On it discussions took 1965. Eight youths committed self-immolation place for four or five months. In that context I for championing the cause of their language still remember the excellent speech of Mr. and oppose the imperialism of Hindi. But Piloo Modi. Normally he never attended the today what is going on in Uttar Pradesh and afternoon session, but on that day he Madhya Pradesh? I am terribly disturbed at particularly came here to participate in that times when I hear the voices of Hindi debate. Still his voice is ringing in my ears. fanaticism in this House also cutting across He said and I quoe: party lines. I don't blame any particular political party. But they forget that it is the 'English is the window for the world Council of States. People coming from South knowledge. Only insane people will and the North-East are put to difficulties and demand abolition of English in this they cannot under, stand what is happening country." here. I would again like to quote Pt. Nehru, which had hal been quoted by Dr. Suniti English has so far brought about wonderful Kumar Chatterjee in his note of dissent on the developments in this country in the field of Official Language Commission's Report. I science, technology and medicine. Do you quote: think doctors can immediately switchover to Hindi? If you want to solve the population "We live in a very rapidly changing world and problem then you can ask the doctors to it is of the utmost importance to keep in touch prescribe medicine in Hindi? with each other's ideas and ideas ot the changing world. It has, therefore, become more Madam, here I would like to point important that we should know adequately out that the option was given not to foreign languages if we want any place in the the Hindi-speaking people but to non- world. Obviously it is easier for us to know the Hindi-speaking people to decide till English language. I hope other languages like what time English should continue. French, Russian, German and Chinese will also Forgetting all these things when some be learnt. Therefore, let us not have any sense of the Chief Ministers behave like of hostility towards English. Let us not think this, the unity and integrity of this that the English language is coming or will country will be in jeopardy. It is a come in the way of the development of our vast country consisting of many cul own langu. age, which is vital for us." tures, languages but you should not try to bulldoze other languages and We are not opposed to the development or cultures from the Hindi belt. If you promotion of the India languages. Of course, raise your voice standing on the again Mr. Maran brought in another Private housetops about emotional integration Member's Bill saying that all the national lan- and national integration, is it possi guages should be made official languages of ble through enforcement or imposi the country. First of all Tamil, the ancient and tion? If you thrust more, we will op classical language of the world, should be pose more. We will not allow the made an official language. Till then English Hindi fanatics to move an inch in should continue as a link or official language. side. Madam, that is why it is time That is the stand we have been taking. This for us, the Council of States to sound country cannot afford to forget the stupendous the warning bell to these Hindi fana sacri- tics. I would like to quote Maulana Abul Kalam Azad. I quote: "We have got t0 admit that as far as language is concerned, North and South are two different parts. The Union of North and South has been 255 Discussion on working [ 7 MAY 1990 ] of Home Ministry 256

made possible only through the not be any discrimination again in the name of medium of English. The day we give up religion. Being a secular country, you should English, then, the linguistic relationship will not treat the Scheduled Caste Christians cease to exist." It still holds good even today. different from Scheduled Caste Hindus. Are We should not forget that fact. Therefore they different from Scheduled Castes Hindus? because the Department of Official No. The same stigma, the same social stigma Language comes under the Ministry of still they are subjected to. This is a secular Home Affairs, it is very pertinent and very country. Of course, Christians through their proper on my part to draw the attention of missionary schools and hospitals have done a the Government through this House, lot for the sick, and disabled to remove through this discussion, to put a full stop, to ignorance illiteracy and to help the poor and this ongoing jingoism and fanaticism in the needy. But at the same time, Madam, the some parts of northern India. I think better Scheduled Caste Christians are being treated sense would prevail on those people. They separately and are being discriminated against should not try to divide this country. We stand vis-a-vis the Scheduled Caste Hindus. So, the for the unity of this country, the integrity of same facilities should also be given to them. this country. But, at the same time, I All vicious campaign is now being carried on would like to put on record very clearly by some people in the name of religion. I am that we Would not compromise our basic very sorry to say that more blood has been values, we would not com-"promise our basic shed in the name of religion. Even before the conviction for which we have stood for 30 or 40 years in the State of Tamil Nadu. Dr. days of crusade, more blood has been spilled, Subbaroyan was not a member of the DMK. As more battles have been fought, more wars have an eminent member of the Congress, as an been fought in the name of religion. Today, eminent member of the Cabinet, he has had people from different religious communities, put his dis-sent note in the Official who have been living like brothers, who have Languages Committee. But this sort of been promoting fraternity and brotherhood, are fanaticism will not do any good. Madam, at loggerheads in the name of religion. therefore, it is high time for the Government to Whoever tries to inject this communal poison, act. They are trying to impose through overt whoever tries to inject this communal cancer, and covert means and through front door is the number one enemy of this country, I and back door almost this language on us, would like to tell you. They are antinational on the non-Hindi-speaking people. The people. Who are snti-na-tional? In the name of assurance given by Pandit Jawaharlal religion, if they want to divide the people, Nehru should not be thrown to the winds. This make them fight each other, and shed their is the warning I am giving through this House, blood, those people, to whichever party they to the Government which is run by the National belong, to whichever religion they belong, are Front. That assurance should be given the number one enemies of this country. This is Constitutional guarantee which we have been our approach. Madam, on the Scheduled Caste demanding for all these days. We should not Christians, what Dr. B. R. Ambedkar stated—I forget the valour and sacrifice of the youth who am referring to Dr. Ambedkar because we are fought against imposition of Hindi. celebrating his centenary celebration—I would like to quote: Madam, to one more thing I would like to draw the attention of the House, through you. There is a move from the Government to give "Let us take the second part of the concessions to neo-Buddhists who embraced question. Has Christianity been Buddhism, the Scheduled Castes people. I welcome it but there should 257 Discussion on working [ 7 MAY 1990 ] of Home Ministry 258 able to save the convert from the . sufferings "Para 32: The Committee found during and ignominy which is the misfortune of tours that all Scheduled Castes who got everyone who is born an untouchable? Can an themselves converted to religions other untouchable after his conversion to than Hinduism should be given all Christianity take water from a public well? concessions which are available to Are his children admitted to a public school? Scheduled Castes. This is because the Com- Can he enter a hotel or tavern which was not mittee found during tours that they suffer open to him? Can he enter a shop and buy from the same disabilities which the things from inside? Will a barber shave him? Scheduled Castes suffer." Will a washerman wash his clothes? Can he travel in a bus? Will he be admitted in Public Again, ,Madam, in the year 1970, in Tamil Offices without compunction? Will he be Nadu, there is a Report of the Backward allowed to live in the touchable quarters of the Classes Commission of Tamil Nadu village? Will the Hindus take water from him? (Satanathan Commission Report 1970). I Will they dine with him? Will not the Hindus would like to quote Volume II, Page 21 of the take a bath if he touches him? I am sure the report: answer to every one of these questions must be in the negative. In other words conversion has "While there may be progress in the field not brought about any change in the social of Elementary Education, the converts have status of the untouchable convert. To the gene- not made much progress in the field of high ral mass of the Hindus the untouchable school education or collegiate education as remains an untouchable even though he their Hindu brothers. The same spirit of becomes a Christian." renaissance which animates the Hindu Scheduled Castes has not spread to the Christian sections and that, due to the Madam, I would like to quote the report of absence of employment opportunities the Kumara Pillai Commission on this which similar to those reserved for Scheduled was constituted by the Kerala Government in Castes, there was no great temptation for 1965. I quote para 25. the converts to go into higher education. It is claimed that they have not been able to "The evidence is that the degrees of make any headway in Government and they segregation of the new convert from stand now where the Scheduled Castes Scheduled Castes is almost as high as stood 20 years ago." before his conversion.... We are convinced that in practice converts from Scheduled Again, Madam, in the year 1975, in the Castes are treated as socially backward". month of June, the evaluation report on Intensive Agriculture Area Programme by Mr. Chidambaram reported and I would like to Madam, when we were ruling in the year quote part 2, section on Harijan Christian. 1969, the Elayaperumal Commission was There is a reference about Harijan Christian. constituted in the State of Tamil Nadu. I I quote: would like to quote a portion of the report of the Committee on untouchability. (Economic, "Harijan Christians as the term itself Educational development of the Scheduled denotes are those who belong to the Castes and connected Documents, 1969.) Scheduled Castes and have embraced Christianity. Though Christianity recognizes no caste, yet we found in the course of our tour Covering the Districts of Tirunelveli, Kanyakumari, Ramanathapuram, Thanjavur, Tiruchirapalli and South 259 discussion on working [RAJYA SABHA] of Some Ministry 260

Arcot...that casteism is practised widely It is further resolved to request the among the members of Christian fold as Government of India to take early steps judged by the characteristics of the caste to suitably amend para 3 of the system, viz., the prohibition of social mo- Constitution (Scheduled Castes) Order bility between members of different castes, 1950 to include the Christians of inter-marriage between them, dining with Scheduled Castes origin in the list of members of other castes and common work. Scheduled Castes." The caste system the most archaic but the most powerful social institution in India has Madam, our party, the DMK, is of the view also permeated into the Christian that the same concessions should be extended religion." to these Scheduled Caste Christians also. For Madam, in the Mandal Commission report no fault of their own, why should they be also, there is a reference to Harijan Christians denied these concessions in tha name of which I would like to quote: region, this being a secular country? What do you mean by secularism? It is hypocrisy if we practise such a thing discriminating and "There is no doubt that social and denying concessions to particular sections in educational backwardness among non- the name of religion. It is nothing but Hindu communities is more or less of the hypocrisy. What does secularism mean here? same order as among Hindu communities. Though caste system is peculiar to Hindu Therefore, when this Government is society yet, in actual practice, it also proposing to bring a Bill to give concessions pervades the non-Hindu communities in to those people who embraced Buddhism, the India in varying degrees. There are two same concessions and facilities should be main reasons for this phenomenon: first, extended to these people, the Scheduled Caste caste system is a great conditioner of the Christians, also. Thank you, Madam. mind and leaves an indenble mark on a per- son's social consciousness and cultural SHRI M. M. JACOB: Respected Madam mores. Consequently, even after conversion, Vice-Chairman, I am happy you have given the ex-Hindus carried with them their me some time to participate in the debate on deeply ingrained ideas of social hierarchy the working of the Home Ministry. Madam, I and stratification." was listening to most of the speeches made by Members from both sides. There is a growing Madam, the General Body Meeting of Dalit feeling, which is testified by the speeches Christians, S.C. Christians, in April 1988, made, that the situation in our country is passed a resolution and I would like to quote alarming. Not only the law and order situation it: is alarming, but people feel a sense of frustration and disappointment. They expected "The Bishops of India gathered at St. much more from the National Front Thomas Apostolic Seminary Kottayam, Government when it was constituted and Kerala from April 13-22, 1988 proposed came to power. But the experience for the last and unanimously passed the following three or four months shattered their hopes and resolutions: expectations. The sum and substance of what I "It is resolved to inform the heard in the House and outside is only this Government of India that the Christians and nothing else. Even the contradictions and of Scheduled Castes origin suffer from the contradictory statements from the extreme social, educational and constituents of the ruling party or the parties economic backwardness arising out of supporting ''tine the traditional practice of untouchability. 261 Discussion on working [7 MAY, 1990] of Home Ministry 262 ruling party were so evident and clear that challenge me, that is a different question. But things are not all well. I do not want to secularism is the first casualty after this elaborate more on each area because we know Government took over; otherwise the things the problems in Kashmir. Well, our would not have happened in Kashmir as it is friends sitting on the ruling benches can say happening today. When the Home Minister's that we are responsible for what is happening daughter was kidnapped, all of us expressed in Kashmir. It is the usual way in which they anxiety and anguish and we spoke about this defend themselves on every issue. But the in this House from both sides. But when the question is, after the National Front Home Minister's daughter was released in Government assumed power in Delhi, has exchange of five terrorists, some of us had an the situation worsened or improved? apprehension as to what was going to happen? Madam, I am very sure that the situation in Kashmir has deteriorated and there is nothing to I read the news item on 30th April in one of prove that there is some stability or our papers here in Delhi that nine J&K security anywhere. Why is this happening? militant outfits met in P.O.K. and a common, Look at the scenario, of Jhuggis burning or political and military strategy was evolved by bomb blasts in Delhi, train mishaps in various a group of nine people of whom two were parts where bombs have been exploded, the the militants who were released in exchange of atrocities on Harijans in various parts of the the daughter of our Home Minister. The country or what is happening in Kashmir, names of those two persons are Saraf Khan Punjab, Assam and other parts of the and Sahur Butt, two of the five militants country. One thing is clear. We thought that released by the Indian Security Force in religion is a cementing force of the people exchange of the kidnapped daughter of our because all the religions preach that there Home Minister, Shri Mufti Mohammad should be love for one's neighbour, and Sayeed. Madam, I am happy that Rubiya even love for one's enemy, but now re- is saved, but I am unhappy when I find that ligion has assumed a tendency to spread these militants who were Pakistanis went communal violence and communal hatred. back to Pakistan and in P.O.K. they were We thought that this would not happen in a conniving with others to prepare a strategy country like India because we have the to destabilise our country. The Vice- tradition of tolerance. Even before indepen- Chancellor who was a learned person was dence, the western writers were of the view killed when he was going to the mosque. He that India is a typical example where all was kidnapped on the way and later on opinions are tolerated and where divergent killed. Mr. Khera, General Manager of the views are tolerated and respected. In a country H.M.T, who was appointed by the previous of such repute, why this is happening? Madam, Govemment to see that employment is my analysis is this. This country stands on four provided to the Kashmiri youths was also strong pillars. One is secularism. Others are kidnapped and murdered. What is democracy, socialism and non-alignment. happening actually? What is wrong? Why All the four pillars are destroyed people like the Vice-Chancellor, a respected systematically by the National Front religious person and an educationist are Government. They may not be voluntarily assassinated? And. Madam, many others are doing it. Some of them may not be knowing being killed. A Kashmiri poet has been what they are doing. By not doing certain killed. Everyday the newspapers carry the things, they are shattering all these four pillars news that some ten people or fifteen people and destroying the fabric with which this nation are butchered in Kashmir. By whom? -was erected. ... (Interruptions) .. .Now you can Madam, I heard some Member m this dispute with me or 263 Discussion on working [RAJYA SABHA] of Home Ministry 264 House mentioning that though the Government is there, no medical shop is open, It is up to the majority now to create by no hospital is functioning, and so on, 329 its generosity a sense of confidence in the children lost their lives for want of medical aid. minority. It is in the interest of all to lay real Several women's lives were lost at the time and: genuine foundations of a secular State. of delivery. What is this, Madam? Is not Then nothing is better for the minority than this really serious? I am not explaining the trust and goodwill and sense of fairness anything further about Kashmir. But one thing of the majority and to place confidence in is clear. Why is this happening? My own them." humble analysis is this: I am happy that Mr. Sikander Bakht is here. He spoke earlier and Now, is it generosity that demands the abrogation of article 370? Is this generosity I hope he will agree with me on one thing. expressed by Sardar Patel to demand the When you say that article 370 has to be suspension of article 370? Is it generosity for suspended immediately, and Kashmir must the minorities? be put on a footing different from the one on which it is today, well, a wrong message SHRI VIREN J. SHAH (Maharashtra); goes across everywhere and the minorities feel Which is the majority community in Jammu insecure. Otherwise, why this sudden and Kashmir? spurt of violence? Was this situation existing before? Is this situation not a new SHRI M. M. JACOB: I am talking about creation? It is very difficult now. Why? Is the country as a whole. it possible to remove article 370? You see, our Constitution- framers accepted article SHRI VIREN J. SHAH: Who are in 370 and said that it could be abrogated only on majority in Jammu and Kashmir? the recommendation of the Assembly of the Jammu and Kashmir State. There is no SHRI M. M. JACOB; A majority in one Assembly now at all. In the absence of the place becomes a minority in another and a Assembly, how can they even think of minority in one place becomes a majority elsewhere. suspending or abrogating article 370? This is going to be a dangerous game for SHRI VIREN J. SHAH: Ten crore India. The minorities are to be given strength Muslims are a part of India. and confidence. Is this giving more strength and confidence to the minorities today SHRI M. M. JACOB: Yes, I am coming to in Jammu and Kashmir and in other parts of the that point. A person who is a minority in one country? In this connection, I would like to place becomes a majority in another. There is quote just one sentence only from Sardar no place where only the majority community Vallabhbhai Patel when he was lives or only the minority community lives. speaking in the Constituent Assembly on the All will have to live together. A Keralite may problems of the minorities. I am quoting Sardar be a minority in Delhi or a Gujarati may be a Patel intentionally and deliberately because my minority in Kerala. A Muslim may be a friends, who are always talking about the minority in some part of Madras. But he is in abrogation of article 370, always quote a majority in Kashmir or in some districts in Sardar Patel. That is why I am quoting my Kerala. Christians are in a majority in some previous: Home Minister, Sardar Vallabhbhai districts in Kerala and Hindus are in some Patel, on the floor of this House. On the 25th other. Therefore, we have to accept this and of May, 1949, Sardar Patel spoke like we cannot usurp the rights and privileges of this: any minority community. You would not be able to do justice unless and until the fear complex among all the communities 265 Discussion on working [ 7 MAY 1990 ] of Home Ministry 266 in this country is removed. That is why I say suicide, the other possibility that he might that wisdom demands magnanimity and have been murdered should r:ot have been generosity and the magnanimity and ignored.' generosity shown by the majority, wherever they are, will go a long way in sending this message. Otherwise, the country will have to It is further very strange that even ween a face serious difficulties on account of what is case under Section 364 IPC had been going to happen as it is happening today. registered, no effort was made to exclude the possibility of his abduction or murder. Madam, I am not saying more on Punjab. The conduct of the investigating agency in My friends have spoken about Punjab. Is the searching the canal is again very situation now worse in Punjab or is it mysterious. It is not understandable as to improving? When Mr. Rajiv Gandhi was the way only half the portion of the canal was Prime Minister, we had the problem of searched and when the area up to a few terrorism in Punjab. The problems were kilometres from the place where the articles discussed and discussed and dialogues were of the deceased were found had been there. A series of meetings were held even searched a number of times, how his dead after Longowal was killed. There were meet- body was located at a distance of two or ings and meetings. But now the Home three kilometres from that place on January Minister comes and says we will not talk to 3, 1990". terrorists. "Mufti is reported to have said that we will not talk with the terrorists." Unless This shows the callous way in which things you have a dialogue with everybody including were handled. This shows that even the police the terrorists, if necessary, how can you solve are not being told how to behave well. This a problem like that in Punjab? One of our shows how the new Punjab administration is elected Lok Sabha Members was murdered— handling each and every such situation and Mr. Khudian. And you said it is a suicide. The each and every such case. I am not happy police said it is a suicide. Many Members about what is happening. I am not happy even were expressing the hope that it could have about the statement of Mr. Mann. The other been a suicide and not a murder. Some people day he said, "If there is a war between India said it was a murder. Now, look at the report and Pakistan, the Sikhs shall identify of the commission. I am quoting the Indian themselves on the side of Pakistan." I am not Express of May 1: at all happy. I am really unhappy because no part of India shall be allowed to be "Justice Rai's strong strictures on the police's dismembered from India. Keeping these role in investigating the case deserve serious happenings in view, all these things are going attention." to be very dangerous. I was alarmed when I read a press report of my friend's statement, "He (Justice Rai) said: An elected Member of "War clouds on.. *", says Advani. I am Parliament hag disappeared. His family quoting Advani... (Time bell rings). I am members are suspecting foul play. But concluding. "Mr. Mathur who was also somehow the investigating agency for reasons present at the press conference warned best known to them adopted a line which was Gujral..." He warned Gujral and the Centre not very much justified by the situation. Even that "they should not harbour any illusion; if the investigating or somebody higher to him non-Islamic countries would be impartial on was of the view that Mr. Khudian had the Kashmir issue vis-a-vis Pakistan and committed Islamic countries are all against India on the Kashmir issue." Who told you? Iraq supported us. Arafat came here and supported 267 Discussion on working [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Home Ministry, 268

India. So making statements and appearing in It is unprecedented in Indian history. When the newspapers that Islamic countries are you asked all the Governors to resign, the against India on the issue of Kashmir is just Home Ministry will have to tell us why there weakening the case of India. It is true; our case is double standard. Are you making them a is strong. (Time bell rings). Since you have laughing stock in front of the people of the rung the bell I will only mention one or two country by allowing Governors to. continue small points. To me they are really serious. For as daily wage people? want of time I will not be able to dwell on them at length. The new Government has [The Vice-Chairman (Prof. Chandresh P. appointed a few Governors and taken the Thakur) in the Chair.] resignations of some of the Governors. I would like to quote one or two sentences from Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, you—not you Sir, Sarkaria Commission Report pertaining to but this Government—has sufficiently Governors because my friend, Kamal Morarka, insulted senior political leaders and non- and even Shri L. K. Advani were using the political leaders who happened to hold the Sarkaria Report when we debated the Sarkaria highest position of Governor. One of my Report in the Rajya Sabha. About Governors friends from the southern States... Sarkaria had mentioned one or two points. He SHRI A. K. ANTONY (Kerala): Sir,. one of said, "The Governor should be a detached the former Governors went to Kerala to celebrate figure and not too intimately connected with 'Id'. His resignation was accepted that day, the local politics of the State. And he should be without.../ (Interruptions). a person who has not taken too great a part in politics generally and particularly in the recent SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN past." Well, it is desirable that a politician from (Tamil Nadu): What about the Pondicherry the ruling party is not appointed as Governor Governor who appointed pro term Speakers of a State which is being run by some other at the same time? One pro term Speaker party or a combination of other parties. Search adjourned the House; the other one got up your own hearts. We know from our own and said: I am now pro term Speaker. He took House people are taken out to serve as the Chair and elected Speaker... (In- Governors in some States. You yourself who terruptions). propounded the Sarkaria Commission Report wanted the Governor to be independent and SHRI M. M. JACOB: The less said the important person. My party supported that. We better. Governors themselves will have to said; we agree with you. If there is an find out whether they have done the right aberration, we have to correct it. Governor is thing or not. holding an important position. He has a discretionary power and discretionary power My next point is about the controversy about which some of the Members were has to be use by a person who must not be pressurized from the ruling party or any agitating in the House. I am one who feels that quarter. But what is happening today? Some of there should not be any agitation on the the Governors' resignations were not accepted. question of language. As I mentioned earlier, Pending. Are they continuing on daily wages? secularism has to be accepted as a major thing There is insecurity even for Governors who in our country, a cementing factor, as have not come out of their gubernatorial religious tolerance, as a thing which is position. Some of them are still continuing in supposed to be a linking factor, a cementing some States. Why? factor. This is now taken out as a factor to destroy our country. Is it possible for us to ignore 1562 languages and dialects in our country, including the major languages? So in a country like ours where we have quite different languages and different dialects, we have to* 269 Discission on working [ 7 MAY 1990 ] of Home Ministry 270 live with it and accept enrichment of this. On a language. My mother tongue is Malayalam. the contrary, I find the Chief Minister of a My parents never knew English and never neighbouring large State issuing orders to ban spoke English. For generations we spoke English from the State. Sir, in my opinion, Malayalam only and such a nice language is there are people whose mother tongue is Malayalam because most of the words are English in that State. Look at article 30 of the Sanskrit words. You may not understand Constitution where it is particularly some of the words here in the North, but we mentioned about education, whether you understand Hindi when it is with Sanskrit should ban English or not. Article 30 of the words. I am only pointing this as a right of the Constitution Bays: people which cannot be abrogated just simply.

"30. (1) RIGHT OP MINORITIES TO Sir, now the religion and the language, all ESTABLISH AND ADMINISTER these things are the major factors. Our Home EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS: All policy needs a re-look, a fresh examination minorities whether based on religion or now. There is no Home policy. Is there a language, shall have the right to establish Home policy for the Government, I challenge, and administer educational institutions of what that policy is. If the Home policy is their choice." wrong, your Foreign policy will go wrong. Foreign policy is the extension of the Home Sir, the Constitution is very clear that a policy. I remember Asoka Mehta's statement minority, whether linguistic or religious, can some years ago when he was alive. He said, run an educational institution. What about the the Foreign policy is the extension of the communities in Uttar Pradesh in Lucknow, Home policy. Without a stable Home policy, where their mother tongue is English? There you cannot have a steady Foreign policy. So, are four States in India where their official you cannot distort Home policy and hope that language is English. So, to talk that this you will have a Foreign policy different from language has to be banner is really a serious Home policy. So, we have to have a Non- question. So, I hope that language shall not be aligned foreign policy. If you have to have made an issue of controversy. Jawaharlal Non-alignment as Foreign policy, you have to Nehru had given the assurance Lal Bahadur have secularism as a major concept in the Shastri had given the assurance that three- Home policy. This is my point, Sir. So, I quote language formula will be followed in this Jawaharlal Nehru in this instance about the country. The moment the Home Minister separation of religion and Politics because my takes a strong position in support of the three- Party believes that religion and politics must language formula, I think, we can save the be separated. In the Constituent Assembly, in division of the country on account of 1948, our leader Jawaharlal Nehru languages. Sir, more than religion, in the mentioned... world history, it is the language that divided the people more. Religions sometimes can THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE tolerate because religious teachings are MINISTRY OF COMMERCE (SHRI something different. Tolerance is taught by ARANGIL SREEDHARAN): We stand by religion. But language is a volcano. If you Non-alignment. There is no deviation. touch that volcano and allow it to flare up, that will be the death-knell for a country like SHRI M. M. JACOB: What I said is that a India. day will come for you when you will not be able to maintain Non-alignment policy when Sir, before closing, I once again appeal to you distort the Home policy because they the Government and to their colleagues. I am cannot be two diverse points. This is my talking about the language not because I like point. English as 271 Discussion on working [ RAJYA SABHA ] of Home Ministry 272

SHRI N. E. BALARAM (Kerala): Where techings, and relies on Mahatma Gandhi when is the distortion in the Home policy? there is confusion in his mind, it will be difficult for him to take the country on the SHRI M. M. JACOB: Home policy right path. Sir, in this connection, I would like is distorted now. You are weakening to refer to one thing. When Shri Vishwanath secularism. Secularism comes out Pratap Singh became the Prime Minister, in from non-violence, and non-violence is the first week of his assuming office as the taken out from your Foreign policy of Prime Minister, he said 'I do not want my Non-alignment. Non-violence Of photograph in the offices', One friend of mine Gandhi is the basic thing. That nonviolence is thought 'It is very good; the Prime Minister shattered. Violence is everywhere in the does not want his photograph in Government country, including Assam and the North-East offices'. But what actually happened was, next and everywhere. You are unleashing week, they removed even the photograph of violence. Jawaharlal Nehru—which was there till there—from the Government offices. This was SHRI ARANGIL SREEDHARAN: Who because there was also another sentence by started this process? Shri Vishwanath Pratap Singh, 'Only the photograph of Mahatma Gandhi and SHRI M. M. JACOB: You started it in a Rashtrapati, President of India, shall be there; much more vigorous way (Interruptions) We My photograph need not be there'. Some were trying to contain it. Whenever anything officers thought that they have to remove came, my Government used to contain it as immediately the photograph of Jawaharlal best as possible. We got certificates from all Nehru and Shrimati Indira Gandhi. They of you, including your own colleagues that thought that it was a general direction. I am our Government was doing right at certain not sure whether it was a general direction. times. Sir, I quote Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. This Sir, Jawaharlal Nehru's photograph gives us is very important because you must separate the strength and the courage when we face the religion and politics. Kashmir and the Punjab problems and other critical situations in other parts of the country. "We must have it clearly in our minds and It is Nehru who can give solutions to the in the minds of our countrymen that the problems we face. That is why I say, the alliance of religion and politics in the shape of socialism which Nehru gave us, the commu. nalism is the most dangerous allian- democracy which Nehru 'gave us, the ce. And it is the most abnormal kind of principle of non-alignment which he taught us illegitimate breed. This combination is and the principle of secularism which he harmful to the country as a whole. It is taught us are the four pillars on which this harmful to the majority." country has to be built. I hope, the Home Minister will take a fresh look to see that Nehru is brought back;—in this context—and Sir, I do not want to take away your save the country from utter chaos and ruin. time. This country will have to go Thank you very much for giving me this back, the Home Minister will have to opportunity. read Jawaharlal Nehru again. Jawa harlal Nehru, the architect of modern India has told us the value of living THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. together in this country. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): Shrimati Unless the Home Minister 3 P.M. goes Bijoya Chakravarty (Interruptions). back to Jawaharlal Nehru, reads what he has said, reads his books and his 273 Discussion on working [ 7 MAY 1990 ] of Home Ministry 274

SHRI MOHAMMED AMIN: Sir, I would politics and militarise Hinduism'. This was like to draw the attention or the hon. Member the concept which we opposed. who just spoke that it was only the other day (Interruptions). Shri Rajiv Gandhi, when he was the Prime Minister, declared publicly that his Govern- THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. ment wants to establish. Ram Rajya in India. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): All ot you, Is it separation of politics from religion? please sit down. It is an unnecessary (Interruptions). controversy. Ram Rajya is not Hindu Rajya. Ram Rajya is a generic expression. It is a SHRI N. E. BALARAM: It is secularism. secular expression. You respect that. Now, (Interruptions). Shrimati Bijoya Chakravarty please. (Inter, ruptions),. . SHRI M. M. JACOB: Gandhiji had explainer Ram Rajya. It has nothing to do SHRI N. E. BALARAM: Sir, there are with religion. It only means a acles for the different opinions about Ram Rajya. State. (Interruptions).

SHRIMATl BIJOYA CHAKRAVARTY: Hon'ble Vice-Chairman, Sir, I am Standing up to speak on the annual report and demands for grants of the Home Ministry. (Interruptions),.. I hope that the Hon'ble Members will kindly allow me to speak. (Interruptions) ...

Hon'ble Members have put forward their views on the discussion of the Home Ministry and I have listened to their views with rapt 'attention. But I feel that the Hon'ble Members SHRI AJIT P. K. JOGI (Madhya Pradesh): of the other side have levelled undue charges The hon. Member should understand the against the National Front Government. words 'Ram Rajya' in the context in whihc it Probably the Hon'ble Members have forgotten was used by Mahatma Gandhi. that till October last the country was ruled by (Interruptions). Congress for 41 years.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. The problems facing the country today, be it CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): I have called Kashmir. Punjab; Assam; different communal Shrimati Chakravarty. Let her start her riots; or the Ram Janambhumi Babri Maszid speech. Please do not interrupt issue, have not cropped up within a day or (Interruptions). two. these sensitive issues by the previous up within a day or a month. These have taken SHRI MOHAMMED AMIN: Mr. Jacob, many months, many years t0 reach this you have not followed it all along. magnitude because of the mismanagement and (Interruptions). mishandling of These troubles could not have cropped Government which led to such a ♦SHRIMATl BIJOYA CHAKRA- severe dimension. Sir, I want to ask who is VARTY (Assam); Sir, I have been standing for the last one minute. I I am *English translation of the original speech not being allowed to start my speech. in Assamese. (Interruptions).

SHRI M. M. JACOB: Mr. Amin, I would like to point out that we opposed a particular statement made some years ago by Veer Savarkar 'Hinduise 275 Discussion on working [RAJYA SABHA] of Home Ministry 276 behind these problems? Why is the a controlled way. Political will and proper country facing these problems? I statesmanship are required to bring back peace think the then Congress (I) Govern and normalcy in the country. * I hope the ment 'had taken a very lenient view National Front Government will make sincere of the coalition Government in Jammu effort for that. But I feel strongly about one and Kashmir. Why were they having point that in no way the country's integrity and such lenient attitude? Why have not sovereignty can be compromised at any cost. they taken a sincere approach for a real solution of the problem? In the I have listened to and read about same way, who had created Bhinder- discussions on Assam by Hon'ble wale? Who is the creator of Bhinder- Members in both the Houses. But their wale? Similarly, during the Congress discussions are limited to the ULFA regime we had seen communal riots alone. Assam is burdened not only everywhere in India. Ugly heads of with' the problem of ULFA. The State communalism rose in different parts is facing various problems including of. the country. Members have been the illegal migrant problem. In the speaking repeatedly about the Ram recently concluded draft electoral roll Janambhumi Babri Maszid issue. But 51 Constituencies are identified where at the time when the National Front, there are more than 148 per cent high Government came into power the rate of growth. Why is it so? This has 6ricks from different nooks and cor become a grave problem. Apart from ners of the country had already arri this there is the Assam-Nagaland bor- ved at Ayodhya. During that time the der dispute. Recently in Rajapukhuri Nation Front Government took the in Golaghat sub-division of Assam rein of the country. In this regard I want to say that although, the Members hundreds of innocent people were are indulging in mud-slinging and killed by Naga extremists. People want to transfer the burden of respon were butchered like beasts of the sibility, mud-slinging will not really jungle. These are the problems burdening help anybody. Today what we want Assam. But the Hon'ble Members are speaking is a spirit of co-operation and a sense about the ULFA only. Who are ULFA? What of bekmgingness which are the urgent is the reason for the raise of the ULFA factor? needs of the day for solving the tricky Who has created ULFA? Who is responsible problems that threaten the country. for it? Actually, I cannot say for certain that Although we see that the people of the there is a positive factor called ULFA. There entire nation are united in the Ram are young men in Assam, ablebodied per-sons Janambhumi Babri Maszid issue, I feel in Assam, well educated persons in Assam. that this is not the major issue facing And given the proper chance the bovs could the country. The major issue is that of have done miracles for the State. Kashmir. It is Pakistan who has indirectly made Kashmir problem a Sir, I want to state that there are 15 lakhs major issue by seeing that the Kash unemoloyed youth in Assam. This is an miris are instigated in different ways official figure. According to unofficial figures and the militants are helped there are more than 17 lakhs unemployed by giving arms, giving all youth in Assam. Assam is plentiful in kinds of things and giving guerr resources. There are 720 tea guardens in illa training which have aggravated Assam, but today hardly any post is offered to the situation in that part of the coun the local people there. Oil flows like water in try. And if we cannot take this prob Assam But O. N G. C, Oil India, Indian Oil lem to the national level then it hardly accommodate same way there are other can never be solved. I do not think Central Government concerns, different public that we can solve the problem by en acting some draconian laws. Rather it will aggravate the situation in a more violent way. I also feel that atrocities by the police is also a kind of vio lence. Police force should be used in 277 Discussion on working [7 MAY, 1990] of Home Ministry 278 enterprises, there are the Railways, people. But out of 95 persons supposed to be Banks etc. But the story is the same. killed by ULFA, 75 are Assamese people. I It is a story of deprivation. In Indian want to say here Sir, Mr. Hiteswar Saikia — I Railways, you will be surprised to will get 12 minutes you have taken... know Sir, since 1962, no local recruit (Interruptions) minutes. ment took place in that part of the country. It is not that Assamese THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. youths cannot compete for all India CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): 11 minutes Services. They have been recruited you have taken... (Interruptions), Please into U.P.S.C, I.A.S, etc., tout in the continue. organisations I mentioned they have SHRIMATI BIJOYA CHAKRA Hit been given any chance. So explo VARTY: Sir, Hiteswar Saikia, now itation still continues in that part of the present President of Assam Cong the country, It is worse than the col ress, made a statement in the paper in onial rule. It is done not by the pres a Press Conference. He said that 42 ent Government but by the previous Congress persons were killed in Govemment. All the heads of the tea Assam And although it is said that they were gardens, OIL ONGC are situated out killed toy ULFA, Mr. Hiteswar Saikia said side the State. That is why, Sir, recru that, these people were not killed by ULFA. itment is done outside and the local Another point I want to state here is, in the people are completely deprived. state body meeting of the Congress Party a So, I think, this pro- resolution was adopted condemning the b^m of unemployment in Assam is creating a A.G.P. Government as the A.G.P. sense of deprivation and frustration which is Government is asking for more force from the the root cause of different problems in Assam. Central Government to contain the violence I feel strongly that fortunately the present there. And it was condemned by the Congress National Front Government is taking active that they should not ask for more force and the and constructive measures to wipe out that Congress wants that the violence should sort of regional imbalance created by the then continue. This is the said and tragic state of Government. I hope this move by the National affairs in my State. Sir, in conclusion I want to Front Government will remove imbalance in say that if the National Front Government, Assam and create a peaceful atmosphere in with their proposals, since-relv try to remove the state thereby easing the dangerous the dissatisfaction, discontentment of the situation created by 41 years of misrule by the people of Assam, then I think there will be no Congress Government. To contain youths regional imbalance in Assam. This will then Assam Government also submitted few bring the peaceful atmosphere hack to the points. Chief of these is to grant, financial State. Moreover, some of the other problems approval for raising Assam Battalion. In this of Assam like the Karbi issue, the Bodo issue proposal Central Government will have to also. I think, were created by the misrule of give a grant only for about Rs. 13 crores But the previous Government I feel the prooosals in exchange of this Rs. 13 crores more than by the present Government will he'o easing 100 youth from each district of Assam w'll be out these problems also. With this, Sir, I con. employed and this will completely absorb all elude my speech. the youth and I think if this proposal is approved the problem of unemplovment in Thank you. Assam could be solved in an amicably way SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA (Ra- without it getting further aggravated. jasthan): Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, when you called me to sneak on the working of the Sir. I also want to mention that allegedly Home Ministry, I ULFA has been killing many 279 Discussion on working [RAJYA SABHA] of Home Ministry 280 -was wondering if we have a Home Ministry my State justifies the fact that the killing in in our country. We have a Home Minister all Assam has not been done by the ULFA right. ... {Interruptions).. . Firstly, if there is a people. It is in the papers, it is on record; you Home Ministry, then is it working and, if it is can see. working, what is happening ' in the country? I would Ike to know from the honourable THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF Minister if there is one place in the country CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): But. what is which I can consider safe. Can I go to the point of order? Kashmir, can I go to Assam? In the deep South, can I go to Rameswaram? SHRIMATI BIJOYA CHAKRAVARTY: The honourable Member has said that the SHRI KAMAL MORARKA: Assam Government is responsible. It is a sort .Bombay! of humiliating comment. I urge upon you to request the honourable Member to withdraw SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Or, for this comment. He cannot cast aspersions on that matter, as Mr. Morarka says, can we go to my Government: I cannot tolerate it. Bombay? SHRI KAMAL MORARKA: Of course! THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. ... (Interruptions)... CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): Okay. ' Mr. Bagrodia, please continue. SHRI T. A. MOHAMMED SAQHY (Tamil Nadu): You can go to Rameswaram. SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA; Sir, I strongly maintain, once more, that AGP and AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Or ULFA are two sides of the same coin; there is Madhya Pradesh forests. no difference. In fact it is the AGP. My SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA; He says honourable sister has said that this has been Madhya Pradesh forests. But there is Naxalite happening for many years. I fully agree that it activity going on there, there is extremist has been happening for many years, at least activity going on there, there is communal for the last four years. After the AGP has activity going on there. A peace-loving citizen come to power in Assam, ULFA is coming up of the country cannot be peaceful anywhere slowly and very well. But till our Congress in the country. Government was there at the Centre, we could contain it. The moment the National Front My honourable sister, Shrimati Bijoya Government came, they thought, now the Chakravarty, was speaking about Assam, but I AGP belongs to the National Front and ULFA am sorry to say that she did not speak a word also belongs to the National Front and so, we against the ULFA or any extremist activity are free to do whatever we like. Sir, there is happening in the north-eastern States. She was absolutely no rule of law in Assam. only trying to justify. I fully agree, she has to Sir, while speaking of intelligence, why did justify because AGP is part of the Central Go- I say that there is no Home Ministry in the vernment and ULFA is the frontal organization country? There is no intelligence in the of the AGP. country. What is happening in Assam? You go to the villages and see what is happening there. SHRIMATI BIJOYA CHAKRAVARTY: They are collecting taxes there. You go to Point of order. Sir, according to the norms of Nagaland. They are collecting taxes there. I the House, a State Government cannot be don't sup-. port it, as was said by my represented here. The people of Assam are honourable sister, the murder that was there by represented by the MPs. I never justified the Nagaland people in Assam I fully killings by ULFA. I simply said that their President in 281 Discussion °n working [7 MAY, 1990] of Home Ministry 282

and strongly deplore that also. But who is SHRIMATI BIJOYA CHAKRAVARTY: responsible for all this? It is the Government Move forward towards western side. in Assam, it is the Government at the Centre. They do not have any intelligence. SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Madam, what is happening in Assam? Whatever In this context, I would like to mention just Madam might say, not a single non-Assamese one thing, about what is happening in Kashmir can be employed there without the approval of also—how intelligence is not working. In Kash- the local Assamese dadas. This is a matter of mir, 4,000 houses were searched and, out of record. Nowhere else in the country is this 4,000 houses searched, only 370 people were happening. This is happening only in the State arrested. In fact, lakhs of innocent people in of Assam. She is saying that only outsiders Kashmir were torturd by the people sent from are working there. I say that not a single man the Centre. Why? Because there was no can be employed in any industry or in any tea intelligence. And to arrest 370 people, the garden without the approval of the Assamese, Home Minister had to - search 4,000 houses. He without the approval of the AGP, without the has made sure that intelligence in the country approval of the ULFA. It is to such an extent goes to dogs. I am very sorry. And the same there that it is not the question of the State thing is going to happen in Assam. I warn, if the only, but, you will be surprised to know, Mr. Home Minister does not start working for Vice-Chairman, that even for a small village which we are talking this afternoon and for the you cannot get a man from the next village. It last two, three days about the working of the is so much localised. This is what is Home Ministry, Assam will become worse than happening. Probably the intelligence Kashmir, worse than Punjab. If Assam becomes department of our Home Minister does not worse, the entire North-Eastern region and the know about it. seven States will become worse. And, Mr. Home Minister, you will be responsible for that. Earlier in Assam the Collectors were having the powers for what is done by the I maintain that this is a government during Home Ministry now. Earlier it is the the tenure of which murders take place freely. Collectors who were allowed to renew the I do not know whether in this House I am arms licences Now all arms licences have to secure or not. The man on the road is feeling be renewed only by the Home Ministry. I urge insecure from all angles. As Madam has said, the Home Minister please to allow again this if they want more help from the Central permission, what was happening earlier so Government, I appeal to the Home Minister: that the people do not wait for arms for ages. please send as much help as possible if that help can solve the problem. But, I feel that it I am just reading a small thing about Assam is not that only the help is required; but a only. The hon. Home Minister has said, "No political solution is required. They are part of talks at gun point." I am just reading the head- you. You have to have a political will. Then ings about what is happening. This he said on only this problem in Assam can be solved March 29. Then on March 28, "ULFA warns without any difficulty. The unemployment politicians and officials." On March 28, problem is not the problem only in Assam. "Collection of donations banned." "ULFA has This is not the problem which is only in the threatened," even on March 30, "THE State of Assam. This problem is all over the STATESMAN", Calcutta. "An . snatching on country. the rise in Assam". This is on March 29. This warning was 283 Discussion on working [RAJYA SABHA] of Home Ministry 284

continued for months, but still the Home SHRIMATI KAMLA SINHA Ministry was keeping quiet. And Surender (Bihar): Sir, I am on a point of order. I would Paul was murdered for no fault of his. The like to submit that it is totally wrong to say poor fellow was driving in car, and he was that in Assam no non-Assamese are murdered in daylight in a planned way employed. You know, Sir. You are from because the intelligence did not know what Bihar. Half the tea-garden workers are from was happening in the State of Assam. Ranchi. "Twenty-one guns taken away by ULFA in Jamunamukh". Do you need 21 guns for THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. employment? Does ULFA need 21 guns for CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): But what is employment? This is the dilemma in the the, point of order? North-East. This is "THE TIMES OF INDIA", New Delhi of the 3rd of April. SHRIMATI KAMLA SINHA: My point of order is that he is stating wrong things. He is SHRIMATI BIJOYA CHAKRAVARTY: giving wrong facts. At least in this House he Is it for the Home Minister or for me? The should state the facts which are correct. hon. Member is putting the questions to me. Am I to reply to them? I want a clarification. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. (Interruptions) CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): Probably, he is talking about new employment. SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: On April 2, "Opposition lambasts AGP on ULFA". On SHRI DAVID LEDGER (Assam): I may the 3rd of April, the Centre was requested to tell the hon. Member that I live in Assam and find out what is happening in Assam about the I know what is happening there. Simply by ULFA. Still nothing happened till the 30th of staying in Delhi you cannot understand what April... is happening in that part of India.

SHRIMATI BIJOYA CHAKRAVARTY: THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. You forget the murder of Mrs, Indira Gandhi. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): He is staying here because he feels secure SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: I do not here. support the murder of Mrs. India Gandhi, Madam. Maybe, there are people on the other SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: I will be side who are supporting it. Maybe they are very glad to visit Assam or any part of the very happy that Mrs. Indira Gandhi was country along with my hon. friend if he murdered. This is a shameful act. Therefore, I ensures my safety. I hope the Government hang my head in shame when I hear any will make sure that I am secure there, I will Member of the House talks about Indira be very glad to visit Assam any time. Gandhi... Regarding employment, I fully SHRI N. E. BALARAM: This is too much. agree with my lady friend there. She Nobody said they are happy about the killing is right. There are tea garden wor of Indira Gandhi. Nobody thought of it. kers from UP and from Bihar. They are all from there. But they were SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: You didn't there long before. They are settled say, but there are people who are happier. I there for a hundred years. But I am have not named anybody. talking about new employment, as Mr. Vice-Chairman, you have pointed out very correctly. ';,:- 285 Discussion on working [3 MAY, 1990] of Home Ministhy 286

It is as early as April 4. There was a printed have talks. I would request the Home Minister notice by the ULFA asking for money openly. to start talks either at gun-point or at love It was a statement that it is a valley of sorrow point or in any other manner Please start talks for non-local businessmen. Then on April 5, with ULFA. The AGP are your own people. PM assures all help to Assam Government. I Let us not stop talks completely. do not know what kind of help has been given. Maybe the help has been given saying THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF that you go on murdering more people. It was CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): You have to on April 5 that the CM's brother-in-law was conclude now. kidnapped by ULFA. I would like to know from the hon. Home Minister who kidnapped CM's brother-in-law. Has he been able to SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: I will not catch them? Now, his brother-in-law has come take much time. Once again I warn the Home out. We do not know anything about it. Like Minister, we will not have Union of States in that there are plenty of steps to check the India but we will have United States of India a"tivities of ULFA. On April 6 CM's brother- if at all we can save India from disintegration. in-law was released. This is all drama which If you want United States of India, please plan is happening in the State of Assam under the like that but let it not happen against your Ministry of Home Affairs. wishes. Though we will be discussing atrocities on Scheduled Castes and Scheduled SHRI N. E. BALARAM; Drama? Tribes later today, the atrocities are increasing on Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Yes, all and women every day. the help which is considered is just a drama. Recently Hemanta Phukan of ULFA and Sir, only a few things on Punjab I want to Angekan Imbroi of NSCN met in Sibsagar speak. I appreciated our hon. Prime Minister's district where it was agreed that the NSCN gesture when he went to Amritsar in an open will provide training in the use of arms to jeep. I wish every citizen of the country and ULFA cadre. On this also I want to draw the every leader of the country could move in an attention of the Home Minister that Nagaland open jeep, but the second time when he went insurgents are helping them. Please try to do he could not go in an open jeep. What is something politically also. I strongly happening in the security? Only two days maintain. That a political decision is a must before or a few days before when the Prime and that this problem can be solved. Minister came her© to introduce the members (Interruptions). At least it is not in my region. oft the Cabinet, I was just coming only a I belong to Assam as much as my friend does, minute before, believe me, even earlier we because I started my life in Assam. From were never stopped; 200 yards away from the 1958 I have been visiting Assam and I am gate I was stopped. My car was stopped 200 active in Assam. I know what is happening yards away from the gate because the Prime Minister was coming. I am not saying that there. security for the Prime Minister should not be When the Home Minister said on May 6 there. There should be full security for during his visit to Gauhati that there will be everybody. no talks at gunpoint, I fully agree with him. We have to be tough. We cannot have talks at THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. the gun-paint, but we must CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): Were you looking hostile? 287 Discussion on working [RAJYA SABHA] of Home Ministry 288

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: With this SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Thank you security system, let us not have-dramas. You for advising me. You are right because if I am have to rule the country. Please make sure expelled, I will come to the other side and you that security is there for every citizen not will be nowhere. I appreciate your worry only for the Prime Minister. This open jeep because you will be nowhere. But you can gimmicks, etc., are not going to work. Let us rest assured, I am not going to leave this party have control over the administration and let whether you want it or not. Now, coming to not Gurdwaras become forts of armaments Kashmir, our Home Minister is not here but it once more which they have already become. does not matter. He must be listening somewhere around. Sir, when we talk about Kashmir, I can assure you that the majority of the minority community in our country which includes the majority of the peace-loving Kashmiris and if THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. I am allowed to mention, the majority of CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): Please Muslims in Kashmir, are not with Pakistanis. I conclude. am very firmly of this view because they know what happened to 300,000 Biharie who are still rotting in Bangladesh. Has Pakistan SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Sir,' I am accepted them? The Muslims of India and the just concluding in two minutes. Hurriedly, I minorities of India know that their country is will do it. I am quoting from India Today, It India. They like to live here. They will die says, "For the first time, there are signs of here. They will survive here. They will eat state machinery gearing up to liberate the land here. They will marry here. They will enjoy from the militants' grip." This is the first time here. Mahatma Gandhi's India, . Jawaharlal that these people tried. They are trying to Nehru's India has given , them this privilege liberate. This itself indicates that in Kashmir, and they have given all the love... it is entirely under the control of militants. (Interruptions)... If it is not Mahatma Gandhi's "Round-the-Clock curfew was imposed in the India, it is your India, it is his India, it is my valley continuing for 11 consecutive days with India and it is also Mahatma Gandhi's India. It no relaxation." I can assure you, Sir, 11 days is is not the property of any individual and I am a long time. Even when for two or three days sure - you understand what I mean. You will when there has been a hartal or a bandh in any understand it very clearly. city of the country—I know, I have ex- perienced it—the poor people, the daily wage SHRI KAMAL MORARKA; It is Rajiv earners are the worst victims. They have to go Gandhi's India... (Interruptions,) ... hungry. Even ordinary citizens cannot buy their daily needs. So if round-the-Clock SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: I don't curfew continues for eleven days, what must need your advice as to whose name I should have happened to the poor people of Kashmir take and whose name I should not take. It is in Srinagar or anywhere, wherever this curfew Rajiv Gandhi's India as much as anybody was clamped, this you can very well imagine. else's India. It is Rajiv Gandhi's family who I mentioned only 4,000 houses but it says: "it have sacrificed for India. It is Indira Gandhi searched 7,000 houses and arrested 370 who has sacrificed her life. militants and their sympathisers". Out of 7,000 houses, only 370 sympathisers were arrested. SHRI KAMAL MORARKA: Now, you And then our Home Minister said, "We have will not be expelled. made a break-through in Kashmir and apprehended 289 Discussion on working [7 MAY, 1990] of Home Ministhy 290 hardcore terrorists". I cannot understand how terruptions). Communal troubles by arresting 370 people, we have made a break are going on everywhere. If this through? What has happened during these Ministry does not! start working—I raids? Sir, you will be amazed to know that know they are getting uncomfortable when these raids were taking place, they went because I am speaking the truth, that there into the ordinary houses because I know, i$ the whole problem______(Interrup I don't blame the forces also because there is a tions) . proverb in Rajasthan. I am trying to convert it into English so that everybody can understand SHRIMATl BIJOYA CHAKRAVARTY: it better. Somebody asked his Thakur—Thakur That is not the question. (Interruptions). is tailed Thakara in Rajasthan — how strong are you? Thakara said, "I am very strong as SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA; Madam, long as the other man is weak. So, I am the you cannot become a Minister because the enemy of the weakest". The same thing is with AGP has not joined the Government. the Indian forces or the Police department or (Interruptions): I stand corrected. They have the Home Ministry. They are the enemy of the joined the Ofovernment. You can become a weakest only. They searched the innocent Minister. people, they molested women, they tortured the children, they tortured the old people but SHRIMATI BIJOYA CHAKRA-VARTY: they could locate only 370 people because Being a constituent of the Rational Front there was no intelligence. If there had been Government, yes, I claim that I am the intelligence, they could have gone straight to Government. the 370 places only. Now, it is very well known that arms training is going on in P.O.K. Not only that, it is well known and it is SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA; I wish accepted by P.O.K. also. Our Prime Minister is you become a Minister. Now, I come to the threatening—we will attack them. last point.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): You have to CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): Please conclude now. cooperate.

SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA: Okay. I SHRI SANTOSH BAGRODIA; This is the request the Prime Minister, don't threaten. last point, Sir. The whole of Manipur stands Please act if you have the guts to act. If you declared as disturbed area under the Armed can destroy those camps, act upon it. Simply Forces Act. why? Because the National saying it is not going to make any difference. Socialist Council of Nagaland guerillas have You are only making those people in Pakistan launched a tax collection drive on the border of Manipur hill areas. With these words. I and in other foreign countries more alert. Our thank you very much for giving me this countrymen in this country are asking me on opportunity. I have got a lot of points to make the road, "Are you going to have war"? How but! since people are feeling unhappy and I do I know as to what is in the mind of our can understand your worry, you cannot make Prime Minister? Everybody is speaking like everybody happy, I conclude. this because the Prime Minister has said, "Get ready (for war." Does he want me to have a pistol to get ready? (In- THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. CHANDRESH V. THAKUR); Mr. Madhavan. You have eight minutes.

SHRI S. MADHAVAN (Tamil Nadu): Mr. Vice-Chairman, our country is passing through a-' difficult 291 Discussion on working [RAJYA SABHA] of Borne Ministry 292 situation because of violence, communalism the society fears about population growth. The and terrorism. Political autonomy and minority communities think that Unless they indepdence, now accompanied by religious become majority, they will lose their rights. I fundamentalism, give more trouble for our know public places, worshipping places, are Government. The Government must take used to propagate that minority communities strong action and tell the people what their should double their population. Naturally policy is. The inaction and silence of the majority communities retaliate. What is the Government on various matters bring trouble. policy of the Government? Unless it is made I request the Government to take a new clear by the Government that whatever may be approach, and encourage the local leadership the increase in population, the cake is the same in every State, encourage every ethnic, and the majority and the minority have to linguistic and religious group to have its say. divide the cake in this country, this fight is There is a feeling that minorities have no going to be there. representation in services. That is one of the grievances they are voicing from, the days of Independence. The Government must see that Another thing is religious procession, The every community is represented in the Gov- pomp and show in the festivals of religious ernment. The Government must come forward groups give ample scope for religious and to have a dialogue with the press people who communal fights. We cannot leave or entrust give more publicity for terrorism and the work of facing this communal trouble to terrorists. The recent publication about the the local police. I would suggest that the danger to the President's house and P.M.'s Government must formulate separate security house is giving a lot of fear complex among forces specially trained for containing the people. The Government must negotiate communal troubles wherever they occur in with the Press and avoid this kind of publicity this country. I must warn the political leaders for terrorist activities which will encourage that the leadership of this country is just going terrorism. Even in the past, we have seen this to the religious, fundamentalist leadership. terrorism. We have seen communalism once You must: encourage voluntary organisations because of the partition of India. Now because throughout the States to work for communal of political fights among the people, peace. I find only Rs. 9 lakhs have been communalism is gaining ground. The allotted in this department for this purpose. minorities want to assert their rights in Out of this, only Rs. 5 lakhs have been spent. independent India, but the majorities retaliate Everywhere, where you expect communal and against them. Economic disparities and lack of caste trouble, you must encourage voluntary opportunities for minorities in Government organisations. Sir, now Punjab is going to services help communal hatred. We know that come to Tamil Nadu. There is a statement the South has not at all experience the Hindu- from Mr. Mann that he is going to come to Muslim problem. Now it has started in the Tamil Nadu. He has got support from Tamil South. The BJP has declared that it will Nadu. He also invites people from Sri Lanka capture the South also. Beally what is the to help him. Armed violence, gun culture, is problem in the South The Government is not increasing. There was a shootout in Ramnad able to avoid mass conversions, con-Versions town, day-light shootout. One constable died. especially from the Scheduled Castes. If large- Still we are not able to locate the culprit. With scale mass conversions happen with the their guns, with their AK-47 guns, and the money of foreign countries naturally retalia- large number of vehicles they travel by, we tion will be there. Every section of are not able 293 Discussion on working [1 MAY 1990] of Home Ministry 294

to locate them. I request the Government to end. There will be no freedom of expression give directions to all the States which are in, the files. This is a serious thing. What going to turn Punjab or Kashmir to seize all happened in the past. The same thing was fol- unlicensed arms. Then only this kind of lowed by the CBI earlier. But what happened? things will come to an end. CBHj officers filed FIR against a State Officer. Now the same CBI officer has to This department deals with refugees. What salute that officer. He has come out again. He happened to the Orissa-camps refugees? No is a boss to them. We must put an end to these statement is coming forward from the Home kind of things. We must safeguard the morale Minister. The Orissa refugees say, "The of IPS officers. The department note says, Government of India brought us. They gave us creation of 'ex-cadre posts brings problem identity cards. They gave us clearance to go between the States and the Centre'. The State anywhere in India." But the State Government wants to create more ex-cadre because they says that they will arrest them and put them in want to have their own officers in particular jail. But no statement, no explanation has, posts. The Central Government must come come from the Central Government. out with rules and regulations for postings and What is the plight of fishermen in Tamil transfers of officers. Everybody wants Nadu? We are hearing of abduction of coveted posts. So they want to create ex-cadre Customs Officer from Rameswaram and posts. The Central Government must abduction of Tamil Nadu 'fishermen. Earlier, safeguard the interests of senior officers by long ago, we were accusing the Sinhala mili- framing strict rules for postings and transfers tary for abduction of fishermen. But now the to avoid shunting of officers. Sinhala military is helping us to rescue Tamil Now the Government has come forward to Nadu fishermen. What is the policy of the give full-fledged statehood for Delhi. The Central Government? The State Government National Front is there in Pondicherry throws the blame on the Central Government. Government. They have given the assurance Central Government coastal guards are there. of statehood for Pondicherry. But this The State -Government says that the Government is silent about that southern part boundaries have not been demarcated. No re- of Pondy. It is because BJP is not there? But ply has come from the Home Department or this National Front, the Janata Dal and the the Central Government. What has happened to DMK are there. There should not be any the Tamil Nadu fishermen? Now they are ac- discrimination. Will the Central Government cused as thieves, Indian thieves going to Sri come forward to give statehood to Lanka. Is this Government going to accept Pondicherry? What about the policy about that? Hindi? I must say that everybody in south is afraid of the new Government's Hindi notion. Now, about the filing of FIR, A new Though the old Congress people are there in procedure is followed by the present the National Front Government, they do not Government. FIRs are filed with the intention come forward to tell the Indian people that the to implicate political rulers and Ministers after assurance given by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru getting confessions from bureaucrats. Notings and followed by the subsequent regimes will are privileged documents. Everybody knows also be followed by them. That assurance that. The Government always refuse to give must come from this Government. the notings of officers and Ministers claim ing Unforunately, the Deputy Prime Minister of privilege. But if this Government is going to this Government ernment has openly file FIRs on the notings of officers, there will compelled the be no 295 Discussion on working [RAJYA SABHA] of Home Ministry 296

officers in a meeting, even though they do not know Hindi, to speak in Hindi and said that they must speak in Hindi. To this kind of compulsion coming from a Deputy Prime Minister, a powerful Minister in this1 Government, what is the reac-~ tion of the Home Minister? What is the reaction of the Prime Minister?" What happened to the Official Language Act which has given the associate' status for the English language along with Hindi? We are not against developing Hindi language, but what will happen to the non-Hindi speaking people of this country if such compulsion is allowed. What is the answer for the Deputy Prime Minister's statement after which every State ruled 'by the National Front Government has started saying: no English, only Hindi. With this kind of thing you are going to invite more troubles from the other linguistic States. We must learn from Russia. We all thought that Russia has solved the problem of language. But after 70 years of totalitarian and oppressive regime, now the people have risen against the imposition of the Russian language. They want their own language. The linguistic feeling has come out in the Baltic States. So this Government must come forward with a clear-cut statement that they will not impose Hindi and that they will implement the assurance given by Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru. That kind of assurance only will solve the problems of various linguistic minority States.

SHRI T. A. MOHAMMED SAQHY; Sir, on a point of order. He said that somebody was propagating in a place of worship: "Double the population." Who has propagated it and where?—I want to know.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF.. CHANDRESH P. THAKURy: It is not a point of order.

297 Discussion on working [7 MAY 1990] of Home Ministry 298

†[ ] Transliteration in Arbic script 29

301 Dkcwskw on working [7 MAY 1990] of Home Ministry 302

303 Discussion on working [RAJYA SABHA] of Home Ministry 304

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR); Honourable Members, we have a problem. According to the listed agenda at 4 p.m. there should the Short-Duration Discussion. And before that there is another item, 'Clarincations on the statement regarding providing debt relief to farmers, artisans and weavers. .. SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: The Short- Duration-Discussion fixed for 4t p.m. should be taken up now. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR); In the meantime there are several names appearing on the Discussion on the Home Ministry. Mr. Home Minister, do you want to reply now? THE MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS (SHRI MUFTI MOHAMMAD SAYEED): Yes. I was told that my reply would be at 4 p.m. And I have to go out after the reply. So I would like to... THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR); It means that honourable Members will have to withdraw their names and accept if the Minister wants to speak now.

SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA (Karnataka): Let us start with the Calling- Attention.

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): I be lieve in the morning the Deputy Chairman had announced that the discussion on the Home Ministry had been going on for quite some time and that therefore, the Home Min ister must complete his statement to day itself before the Short-Duration- Discussion was taken up. So my request to the hon. Members will be that let the Home Minister wind up, and then we will take up.. 305 Short Duration [ 7 MAY 1990 ] Discussion 306

SHRI M. M. JACOB: May I bring one SHRIMATl JAYANTHI NATARAJAN: thing to your notice? Of course, I am not Short Duration Discussion is for 4 o'clock. against any policy decision taken by the Chair. They wanted it to be taken up at 3 o'clock— But the Short Duration Discussion is slater on in the morning. the atrocities on the Scheduled Castes and SHRI A. G. KULKARNI (Maharashtra) Scheduled Tribes. It is a very important : Short Duration Discussion is very important. subject. Members are keen to participate in the We have been pressing for it for the last one discussion. So if the Home Minister agrees to have the reply later on, I think our Members' week. names can be withdrawn. There are Members SHRI H. HANUMANTHAPPA: Mr. Vice- who have not spoken. That is a different issue. Chairman, Sir, the discussion On the Home Perhaps it may be worthwhile to have it today. Ministry is not complete. There are a If not, well, I leave to you, Sir and the Gov- few more ernment . speakers. . . (Interruptions) .

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR); Quite frankly to be fair, the CPM Members' names are here but they have not spoken.

SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: So far as CPM is concerned, the second speaker will have to speak. If there is constraint of time, if the second speaker's name has to foe withdrawn. I am agreeable to withdraw. But CPI got no chance of speaking previously. Naturally, it is up to the CPI to decide. The Short Duration Discussion is normally decided ac- cording to a procedure. A time is fixed. SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN; Normally it starts at 3 o'clock. This time it was Very important issues were raised in the decided at 4 o'clock, one hour after the normal Prime Minister's conferences. We are all time. I do not know how much time the Home waiting. How can we ask the Minister to Minister will take to reply to this long debate. reply .. . (Interruptions) The House will be adjourned at 6 o'clock. THE VICE-CHANRMAN (PROF. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): There is no THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. denying the fact that the subject of the Short CHANDRESH P. THAKUR); What is Duration Discussion is very important. your feuggfestion,s? (Interruptions) . Almost the entire House is interested in discussing this. This also relates to the Minis- SHRI DIPEN GHOSH: Short Duration try of Home Affairs. Mr. Home Minister, how Discussion is a very serious matter. It was will you react to it? (Interruptions) discussed in the Business Advisory Committee, (Interruption) . in the past it was SHRI M. M. JACOB; What we have listed fixed for 3 o'clock .. (Interruptions) Every one at a particular time is ordinarily never would appreciate the Home Minister to give a changed. The Minister's statement is listed at detailed reply. 6 p.m. and this is listed at 4 p.m. The subject is very important. So, I request that the discussion on the Home Ministry be taken up later. SHRIMATI JAYANTHI NATARAJAN: We are not agreeable to a change. 307 Short Duration [ RAJYA SABHA ] Discussion 308 SHRI M. M. JACOB: I want Mr. Balaram also to speak.

SHRI N. E. BALARAM: we are not able to complete the debate. Let us start the Short Duration Discussion. We cannot deviate from the Agenda.

SHRI A. G. KULKARNI: Short Duration Discussion is listed and it must start immediately. There is no other way. You please call the Prime Minister. (Interruptions)

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (PROF. CHANDRESH P. THAKUR): I have heard everybody. Taking into view the general consensus or at least the overwhelming view, let us take up the Short Duration Discussion and the Home Minister will reply tomorrow on the discussion on Home Ministry. in the meantime, let other Members also speak. Par- ticularly one or two Parties have not spoken at all. So, that can continue later. Now, let us take up the Short Duration Discussion first. It is an important issue. Now, Shrimati Sarala Maheshwari. You are speaking on Short Duration Discussion and not on the Home Ministry. (Interruptions) I ' request the hon. Member to co-operate be- cause you all wanted this important discussion.

SHORT DURATION DISCUSSION Continued atrocities on persons belonging to Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes in various parts of the country—Contd.