COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
HOUSE LABOR & INDUSTRY COMMITTEE HEARING
STATE CAPITOL RYAN OFFICE BUILDING ROOM 205 AND VIRTUAL HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA
WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14, 2021
IN RE: UPDATE ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION SYSTEM
BEFORE:
HONORABLE JIM COX, MAJORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE GERALD MULLERY, MINORITY CHAIRWOMAN HONORABLE ERIC DAVANZO HONORABLE TORREN ECKER (V) HONORABLE BARBARA GLEIM (V) HONORABLE JAMES GREGORY (V) HONORABLE RICH IRVIN HONORABLE MIKE JONES (V) HONORABLE DAWN KEEFER HONORABLE KATE KLUNK (V) HONORABLE RYAN MACKENZIE (V) HONORABLE DAVID MALONEY (V) HONORABLE LORI MIZGORSKI (V) HONORABLE ERIC NELSON HONORABLE DAVID ROWE
————————— JEAN DAVIS REPORTING POST OFFICE BOX 125 • HERSHEY, PA 17033 PHONE (717)503-6568 1 BEFORE (cont.'d):
2 HONORABLE MORGAN CEPHAS (V) HONORABLE DAVID DELLOSO 3 HONORABLE ED GAINEY (V) HONORABLE SARA INNAMORATO (V) 4 HONORABLE LEANNE KRUEGER (V) HONORABLE JEANNE McNEILL (V) 5 HONORABLE JENNIFER O'MARA (V) HONORABLE NICK PISCIOTTANO (V) 6 HONORABLE PAM SNYDER (V)
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2 1 STAFF MEMBERS ALSO IN ATTENDANCE:
2 JOHN SCARPATO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, REPUBLICAN CAUCUS JONAS RICCI, RESEARCH ANALYST, REPUBLICAN CAUCUS 3 McCLAIN FULTZ, RESEARCH ANALYST, REPUBLICAN CAUCUS HALEY SALERA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS 4
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13 JEAN M. DAVIS, REPORTER 14 NOTARY PUBLIC
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3 1 I N D E X TESTIFIERS 2
3 NAME PAGE
4 JENNIFER BERRIER, ACTING SECRETARY, 8 DEPARTMENT OF LABOR & INDUSTRY 5 WILLIAM TRUSKY, DEPUTY SECRETARY FOR 28 6 UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION PROGRAMS, DEPARTMENT OF LABOR & INDUSTRY 7 ROBERT O'BRIEN, EXECUTIVE DEPUTY DIRECTOR, 63 8 DEPARTMENT OF LABOR & INDUSTRY
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4 1 P R O C E E D I N G S
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3 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: I'm going to call this
4 meeting of the House Labor & Industry Committee to order.
5 Please rise with me for the Pledge of Allegiance.
6 (Pledge of Allegiance)
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: First I'd like to welcome
8 everyone to this hearing of the House Labor & Industry
9 Committee. I'd like to further announce that the meeting is
10 being recorded so I'd like to remind our members and any
11 guests that are here to please silence all cell phones and
12 any electronic devices.
13 I'm not going to have the calling of the roll
14 today. It's a hearing. Your attendance will be marked.
15 Sign the attendance sheet to reflect your attendance here
16 and those online will be recorded similarly.
17 I've called this hearing as part of our
18 continuing oversight over the situation with the
19 Unemployment Compensation System throughout the pandemic.
20 Last month the Department announced an initiative
21 that would improve customer service. And just last week the
22 Department publicly announced that the new benefit system is
23 going to go-live on June 8th.
24 So we've been looking forward to these types of
25 updates and we're optimistic today that we're going to hear
5 1 some good things from the Department.
2 We're not going to prolong this introduction.
3 Representative Mullery, Chairman Mullery, do you
4 have any comments at the outset here?
5 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: No. I'm just looking
6 forward to hearing the testimony from the Secretary and
7 getting straight to the question-and-answer period.
8 Thank you.
9 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: All right.
10 So today we have asked the Department of Labor &
11 Industry to provide an update of the status of the
12 Unemployment Compensation System. We've asked them to go
13 over everything they have going on that is designed to
14 improve the system. And I know there's going to be some
15 updates in there, but I'm hoping you have enough information
16 to answer any questions that might pop up.
17 I know there are a few other subjects peripheral
18 to the Unemployment Compensation System generically but also
19 the BenMod that you'll be discussing as well.
20 With us today we do have the Acting Secretary for
21 Labor & Industry, Jennifer Berrier; the Deputy Secretary for
22 Unemployment Compensation Programs, William Trusky; and the
23 Executive Deputy Secretary, Robert O'Brien.
24 I'd like to thank you all for being here. And as
25 has become the custom this session, I'd like you to all
6 1 stand and make sure your microphone is on before you do and
2 raise your right hand to be sworn in prior to the testimony
3 today.
4
5 (Witnesses sworn en masse.)
6 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: All right. Thank you.
7 So I've asked the Department to begin with a
8 ten-minute opening statement. We don't have any other
9 testifiers, so we'll provide some latitude there, but I did
10 want to allow a very large amount of the time to be provided
11 to the members to ask questions.
12 I'd like to remind members when we're doing the
13 questions, please try to steer clear of specific
14 unemployment compensation cases that are specific to
15 constituents or even specific scenarios.
16 If a scenario can be described without describing
17 a member and it's something that you've dealt with
18 repeatedly that's not been resolved, that's something that's
19 certainly fair game. But if you've got an isolated incident
20 that's not been able to be handled, that's something that
21 the Department can look at separately. I'd like to --
22 again, I want this to be a focus on the issues that we're
23 seeing in multiple places so that the Department can focus
24 their energies on where the biggest problems still lie.
25 So I've dispensed -- Secretary Berrier will be
7 1 happy to know that I've dispensed with the red, yellow, and
2 green timer for the day. Since you are the only testifiers
3 today, I didn't feel that was necessary.
4 So I'll start by just asking you to testify. And
5 if you have comments that you want either of the Deputy
6 Secretaries to make, then feel free to pass it on to them as
7 needed. Otherwise, we'll assume that your testimony is the
8 primary testimony. We'll start questions right after that.
9 So, Madam Secretary, when you're ready, please
10 begin.
11 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
12 Good morning, Chairman Cox, Chairman Mullery, and
13 Members of the House Labor & Industry Committee. Thank you
14 for giving us the opportunity to speak with you again today
15 about the Department of Labor & Industry's improvements to
16 its Unemployment Compensation Programs.
17 I really appreciate, Chairman, that you did away
18 with the timer. However, you know, we've provided written
19 remarks and my intent was to abbreviate those remarks and
20 just highlight the three main themes of the written
21 testimony and then proceed with the questions.
22 The first theme of the written testimony is the
23 UC Modernization Project. As Chairman Cox commented and as
24 many of you know, last Thursday I announced Labor &
25 Industry's intention to go-live on June 8th for full
8 1 implementation of the Modern UC Claim System. You folks
2 know this in its developmental phase as BenMod.
3 Our staff has been working, as you know, many
4 years to reach this point. And we are confident that when
5 the new system, which replaces our 40-year-old legacy
6 mainframe, is implemented, it will make filing claims easier
7 and also make processing claims much faster for staff.
8 Our intention to bring the new UC system online
9 in June is based on the progress of the project, which is
10 going along very well, and the declining number of initial
11 claims that the Department is receiving.
12 We raised the June 8th go-live date with the
13 BenMod Advisory Committee in late March, which you will
14 recall that the BenMod Advisory Committee previously
15 discouraged us to go-live with the October 2020 date due to
16 the high volume of UC claims resulting from what was then
17 the beginning of the third surge in the COVID-19 positive
18 cases and COVID-19 deaths. So we did do that.
19 But since then, the volume of claims has
20 declined. Pennsylvanians are returning to work. And we
21 anticipate more workers returning to work as businesses
22 reopen and activities resume. As vaccination rates climb
23 higher and positive cases decrease, we envision Pennsylvania
24 returning to a condition much closer to normal, much closer
25 to pre-pandemic.
9 1 We believe that the conditions are right to
2 go-live with the new UC System in June. And we are very
3 excited for it to do just that because of the efficiencies
4 that it will create.
5 I would also be remiss if I didn't pause to thank
6 the UC staff for their hard work collaborating with our
7 vendor to build this modern UC System in a way that conforms
8 to Pennsylvania's UC Law and meets the needs of out-of-work
9 Pennsylvanians.
10 I'd also like to thank the UC Service Center
11 staff specifically, who have been hard at work familiarizing
12 themselves with the functionality and the workflows of the
13 new system so that they are ready to help claimants navigate
14 the system on day one. So, you know, again, we're very
15 excited and we're very proud of the work that our folks have
16 done.
17 The second main theme of the written testimony
18 that the Department provided is with regards to House Bill
19 549. You know, while the new system will create
20 efficiencies within the UC Program and our plans to hire 500
21 to 1,000 additional staff in partnership with Inspiratech, a
22 unique source, will facilitate better service delivery to
23 claimants, there are still structural deficiencies that
24 remain in the UC Law that need to be remedied for us to
25 reduce current and prevent future backlogs of claims that
10 1 unemployed Pennsylvanians have experienced over the past
2 year.
3 Again, we look forward to working with you,
4 members of the General Assembly, to further reduce barriers
5 facing claimants and improve the UC System for current and
6 future claimants. While much of the UC System is governed
7 by Federal law, we have identified several changes that
8 could be made at the State level to improve the UC System.
9 So again, we look forward to working with you and continuing
10 that conversation.
11 And the last theme of the written testimony was
12 something that was touched upon I believe at the last
13 hearing. And that is the reimplementation of work search
14 and work registration. The progress of the vaccination
15 program in Pennsylvania and across the United States and the
16 lifting of the mitigation orders has contributed to the
17 decrease in UC claims that gives us confidence in the June
18 8th go-live date.
19 However, given these developments and the
20 decision to go-live, we have also begun having conversations
21 with stakeholders about planning to reimplement the work
22 search and work registration requirements for claimants to
23 remain eligible for benefits.
24 We are listening to you, your colleagues,
25 Pennsylvania businesses and associations, workers and their
11 1 advocates, and our staff about the work search and work
2 registration requirements that mandate that claimants
3 perform work search activities and register with the
4 CareerLink system to remain eligible for benefits.
5 You will recall that these requirements were
6 waived in the spring of 2020 by Act 9 of 2020. When those
7 provisions expired on January 1, the waivers were continued
8 under the Governor's Emergency Declaration. Our staff has
9 been very hard at work identifying what questions need
10 answers and what technical and programmatic requirements
11 will need to be reimplemented with these provisions to help
12 claimants find work and get back on their feet.
13 I want to reemphasize that neither work search
14 nor work registration were ever waived before and this has
15 never been turned back on so we don't have a playbook for
16 this. And we're being very careful with our planning and
17 making sure that we engage the right folks so that we have a
18 seamless process in place when we do phase in work search
19 and work registration.
20 So with that, Chairman Cox, Chairman Mullery, and
21 members of the Committee, we are happy to answer your
22 questions and go into details on any of those themes that we
23 touched upon.
24 Thank you.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Thank you, Madam
12 1 Secretary.
2 I'm going to open it right up to questions from
3 members. We have a couple that have already notified me
4 that they would like to speak. I'd like to remind
5 individuals who are participating virtually that you can
6 text your Chairman or your Executive Director to get on the
7 list to ask a question.
8 But at this point I'm going to jump straight to
9 the first individual I have on the list.
10 Representative Rowe.
11 REPRESENTATIVE ROWE: Thank you very much, Mr.
12 Chairman.
13 Thank you very much, Madam Secretary, for being
14 here today. I do want to say that I am incredibly grateful
15 for your availability to the Committee. Your consistent
16 willingness to attend hearings is something I'm greatly
17 appreciative of.
18 I've said it before and I'll say it again in
19 these hearings that I do commend you all at the Department
20 for the work that you have been trying to do. The
21 exponential increase in workload that you guys had to deal
22 with, you had to compensate for, when the Governor shut down
23 the State unexpectedly, it really is something that the
24 private and public sector alike would really struggle with
25 that sort of exponential amount of increase in workload. So
13 1 I do commend you and the work you're trying to do. I feel
2 for you trying to take on this increased workload. And I
3 really do appreciate sincerely your availability to the
4 Committee.
5 A couple of questions. Did I hear you say
6 correctly that you have reinstated the requirement to
7 register with CareerLink to remain eligible?
8 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: No, sir.
9 We have not done that yet. That is currently
10 still suspended under the Governor's Emergency Declaration
11 Order. What we are meeting with stakeholders about and what
12 we're figuring out with our program area folks is how and
13 when we're going to reinstate it. Because of the high
14 number of claimants, the system, the CareerLink System, has
15 never experienced that bandwidth of use.
16 So we have to make sure that we have the correct
17 infrastructure in place when we do re-implement work
18 registration so we essentially don't crash the system.
19 REPRESENTATIVE ROWE: Could you summarize, just
20 in ten words or less, which stakeholder groups are you
21 working with?
22 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: So we've met with
23 labor organizations, you know, the Pennsylvania Chamber, the
24 AFL-CIO. Also, we have met with numerous employers to
25 discuss, you know, the difficulties they're having hiring
14 1 workers. And again, we're also talking with members of the
2 General Assembly.
3 REPRESENTATIVE ROWE: So without a doubt early on
4 in the shutdown, the No. 1 phone call I got was issues
5 attaining Unemployment Compensation. And now the No. 1
6 phone call I get is from business owners and employers who
7 cannot simply find the workers that they need.
8 And it is becoming a crisis that is really
9 self-perpetuating where we have businesses that because they
10 cannot find laborers, they're unable to remain profitable
11 and they end up shutting their doors, which pushes their
12 remaining employees onto the Unemployment System. And it's
13 sort of this self-perpetuating downward cycle.
14 Are you tracking the businesses that are closing
15 in the Commonwealth due to the current labor shortage?
16 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: That's not something
17 we would have specific statistics on. I mean, we track how
18 many companies file notices, that sort of thing. But that's
19 not something that we track.
20 REPRESENTATIVE ROWE: All right.
21 Last question. The stakeholder groups that
22 you're working with, I'm assuming that they are conveying to
23 you the desperation that many of the manufacturers and
24 employers in the Commonwealth really are feeling. We have
25 businesses that are looking at overseas temp agencies simply
15 1 because they cannot find the workers here despite the
2 unemployment level being so high.
3 So I would ask if there could be some sort of
4 hard date that we could set to resume these work search
5 requirements because it is unsustainable for these
6 businesses to continue to operate short-staffed with no
7 light at the end of the tunnel.
8 Thank you.
9 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
10 REPRESENTATIVE ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you for your
12 feedback, Representative. We will definitely take that into
13 consideration.
14 REPRESENTATIVE ROWE: Thank you.
15 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
16 Representative Mackenzie, who is joining us virtually.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MACKENZIE: Thank you, Mr.
18 Chairman.
19 Thank you to the Secretary for joining us. And I
20 just wanted to follow up on the Unemployment Compensation
21 Trust Fund and the solvency of that fund. As we know,
22 during this time of COVID when so many Pennsylvanians were
23 unemployed, the Trust Fund went insolvent and has borrowed
24 from the Federal Government.
25 So I would just like to gauge your thoughts on
16 1 that and potentially how the State looks to resolve the
2 solvency of the Trust Fund.
3 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
4 Representative.
5 You know, this specific question has forced us to
6 go into a deep dive on Pennsylvania's Trust Fund and other
7 models that other states are using as well as what the
8 Federal Government is using.
9 Currently our Trust Fund, we have borrowed nearly
10 $1.5 billion in interest-free loans from the Feds. I
11 believe that our Trust Fund -- let me give you the current
12 total right now. The balance is $48 million. And we've
13 paid $931 million from the Trust Fund. Of course, you know,
14 the Federal Government has been very generous in paying some
15 of the emergency claims, the pandemic-related emergency
16 claims. But we still have that hole that we need to
17 address.
18 REPRESENTATIVE MACKENZIE: So I would just
19 encourage the Department -- and I'm happy to discuss this
20 with you further. But in 2012 with the passage of Act 60,
21 we were able to successfully repay debt that we asked the
22 Federal Government at the time, about $2.8 billion. We went
23 to the Capital Markets and were able to acquire debt at a
24 much lower interest rate. But just that refinancing saved
25 Pennsylvania about $60 million. Actually, you know, the
17 1 employers and employees who pay into the Trust Fund were the
2 beneficiaries of those savings really.
3 I want to put it on your radar that that's a
4 possible solution. You know, basically the increasing taxes
5 that could potentially come from the Federal Government
6 could be very detrimental to businesses in our climate here
7 in Pennsylvania. So not that that's the only solution, but
8 do you want to put that on your radar as a potential
9 solution? It took us a long time to pass Act 60, over a
10 year of legislative work.
11 And so if this is the route that we want to go
12 down, I think it's something that we need to start looking
13 at because repayment, unless it gets delayed again from the
14 Federal Government, we're looking at maybe starting
15 repayment in 2023. And again, that's only about a year and
16 a half away at this point.
17 Do you want to put that on your radar? And
18 again, I want to offer my services. I'd be willing to work
19 with the Department on possible solutions that work for all
20 stakeholders.
21 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
22 Representative.
23 We look forward to having further discussions
24 with you and your colleagues on that matter. We do know the
25 success of Act 60. That could be a really good solution to
18 1 paying back that debt.
2 REPRESENTATIVE MACKENZIE: Great. Thank you.
3 I look forward to continuing the conversation
4 with you and the Department.
5 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Yes.
6 REPRESENTATIVE MACKENZIE: Thank you.
7 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
8 REPRESENTATIVE MACKENZIE: Thank you, Mr.
9 Chairman.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Thank you, Representative
11 Mackenzie.
12 Our next line of questioning will come from
13 Representative Innamorato, also joining us virtually.
14 REPRESENTATIVE INNAMORATO: Thank you, Chairman.
15 And thank you, Secretary, for being with us.
16 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Sure.
17 REPRESENTATIVE INNAMORATO: Well, I'm excited to
18 hear about the rollout of a new system. I'm still really
19 troubled by the growing backlog of claims that are waiting
20 determination. In your last testimony, I believe that the
21 number was around 240,000 between PUA and UC for folks
22 awaiting non-monetary determinations.
23 And in your Town Halls, you told us, you told
24 staff, that it would be around 60 to 90 days for folks to
25 receive an answer. And what our personal experience in our
19 1 office has been is that that's not the case. I've talked to
2 a handful of constituents that have been waiting from
3 September and earlier.
4 So I would just like an update on the current
5 backlog of those numbers. And really, how do you think the
6 rollout of this new system will impact the Department's
7 ability to be able to clear that entire backlog and, you
8 know, really what should we be telling our constituents who
9 are still waiting for those determinations?
10 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
11 Representative.
12 And that certainly is one of the main points
13 currently with the Department, those determination backlogs.
14 We are holding steady right now with the decrease in initial
15 claims that we're intaking across Unemployment Compensation
16 and the PUA Program. We've noticed that we're holding
17 steady with the number of determinations.
18 You know, the way we're addressing this is
19 twofold. Obviously, I've mentioned in the past that we're
20 trying to bring on board 50 to 80 additional examiners to
21 address our backlog of determinations, which we are still
22 doing. The job postings are out there. I'm not sure. They
23 have may have come down. But, you know, we are interviewing
24 for those positions so that we can put people out there to
25 start making determinations.
20 1 We've also worked individuals out of class so
2 that they can -- that's more of a quicker solution. So we
3 have individuals doing that as well. But, you know, with
4 regards to the new modernized system, what we've heard --
5 and this is an interesting fact that I learned yesterday --
6 is that determinations will actually be a lot easier in this
7 new system.
8 It's my understanding that the PUA System that we
9 have in place is pretty much the base for the new modern
10 system. And what we're hearing from our examiners, the
11 feedback we're hearing from our examiners, is that it's much
12 easier to do determinations on the PUA System.
13 So that will translate to the new modernized
14 system, which is why also we really want to go-live with
15 this modern system as well.
16 REPRESENTATIVE INNAMORATO: And do you have an
17 updated timeline on what it's going to look like to get
18 through that current backlog?
19 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: I'll have to get back
20 to you on that.
21 REPRESENTATIVE INNAMORATO: I appreciate that.
22 Thank you.
23 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: You're welcome.
24 REPRESENTATIVE INNAMORATO: Thank you, Mr.
25 Chairman.
21 1 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Thank you.
2 Our next representative asking questions will be
3 Representative Nelson.
4 REPRESENTATIVE NELSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5 It looks like I got a crazy mike this morning
6 flying all over the place.
7 Thank you for your testimony.
8 You know, we're really looking forward to seeing
9 the BenMod rollout, you know, finally to be able to come. I
10 know we've done some testing. And even now, just this past
11 week, multiple citizens, multiple constituents, have reached
12 out because of the troubles that they are having getting
13 their unemployment compensation checks.
14 How are we going to -- or can you touch on the
15 plan to roll out notification for existing people? And how
16 can BenMod specifically allow them to resolve? It seems
17 like oftentimes it's administrative, small administrative
18 glitches.
19 Can you expand on how this will help the people
20 that are stuck in that spot?
21 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Absolutely.
22 Thank you, Representative.
23 We actually have developed a comprehensive
24 communications plan with regards to the UC modernized
25 system. We've worked in coordination with our Comm Shop and
22 1 also we are working with public relations and USDR to make
2 sure that the messaging is right and to make sure that we're
3 hitting all of our stakeholders with, you know, the
4 messaging that we're sending out.
5 You know, we're planning on doing live workshops.
6 We're also planning on definitely filtering everything out
7 through social media, through our website, through any form
8 that we can to make sure that we're hitting all segments of
9 the population. And we will also be sending out -- I
10 believe we will be making books available, user guides
11 available, with regards to how to use the BenMod system.
12 So it's really going to be a comprehensive
13 rollout for our communications over the next two months.
14 And it's kind of nice that we have this now because we have
15 two months to really get the word out and get the training
16 down and make sure that individuals are familiar with the
17 system.
18 Regarding the new system, it's going to operate
19 again very much like our PUA System. So a lot of things are
20 done structurally. And some of the things that were manual
21 processes that our folks had to wait for documentation or
22 information to process claims, it's all put in their
23 dashboard. Claimants are able to easily view what
24 documentation is needed and they can then upload it. You
25 know, some of those small, tiny administrative things that
23 1 were problems in the current Legacy System will be very easy
2 to use in the new system.
3 And another piece of that is that employers will
4 have easy access to the new modern system as well. A lot of
5 times we're waiting for information from employers and it's
6 kind of playing phone tag or e-mail tag with employers.
7 This way employers can log into the system, upload the
8 information. Everything happens in realtime.
9 So really it just automates some of these
10 business processes that have really gotten bogged down
11 during this pandemic.
12 REPRESENTATIVE NELSON: Thank you.
13 And that was a lot of detail, a lot of areas.
14 And I think we're really all working for the same goal, to
15 be able to help these people that are really, you know,
16 hurting to be able to get those dollars.
17 The messaging side of things. And it's great
18 that firms are hired. One of the biggest frustrations that
19 we've seen from constituents is that there has not been even
20 a returned e-mail for almost their full claim experience
21 coming from the Department.
22 So just to confirm, individuals that are
23 registered and have e-mails, they're going to receive an
24 e-mail communication as part of that? You know, because
25 Facebook touches a small segment in messaging but the people
24 1 in the system, if they have an e-mail, they will be
2 contacted with a link and then there's going to be
3 structured -- because I know there's -- there's tens of
4 thousands of people. So there will be structured phases,
5 classes, that they can click on to learn how to be able to
6 do this, whether it's in a live class or they can do it on
7 their own.
8 So they're going to receive something from the
9 Department with a way to be able to open their own door.
10 It's just such an important thing that seems to have been
11 lacking under the old system.
12 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Absolutely,
13 Representative.
14 And we are completely aware and sensitive to
15 that. And we are making sure that we communicate to our
16 claimants. It's very important that they learn about the
17 new system and they know how to navigate it.
18 REPRESENTATIVE NELSON: Okay. Great.
19 And we'll look forward to working with you
20 through that process absolutely.
21 Thank you very much.
22 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
23 REPRESENTATIVE NELSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
25 Representative Snyder joining us virtually.
25 1 REPRESENTATIVE SNYDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 And thank you, Secretary, for being with us
3 today.
4 You know, it is very important, as prior speakers
5 have said, that we want this to be a user-friendly system.
6 But, you know, my concern, too, is, as you roll this out, do
7 you have it in your plan to make sure that our district
8 staff has the ability to learn what you're doing and to be
9 able to answer our constituents as they call? because as
10 much as we can educate everyone, I know still what's going
11 to happen. People are not going to understand what they're
12 doing and they're going to call our offices.
13 So I'm hoping that you will have something like
14 that in the plan that will impact our staff.
15 Thank you.
16 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
17 Representative.
18 And that is very important. Your offices have
19 been fantastic partners with the Department of Labor &
20 Industry during this time. And we appreciate all of the
21 hard work that your staff has been doing in conjunction with
22 our hardworking staff. And we are very sensitive to that.
23 And there are legislative portions of our
24 communications plan. There will be specific workshops just
25 for legislative staff, you know, so that they can become
26 1 familiar with the new system. And we will still continue to
2 do our weekly Town Halls, which I think have been pretty
3 beneficial as well.
4 It's my understanding that our Legislative
5 Director has all of the e-mail contacts for all of your --
6 for most of your staff for all of your offices. So we will
7 continue to, again, not only communicate to the claimants
8 and our stakeholders but also to you and your staff as well.
9 That's critical.
10 REPRESENTATIVE SNYDER: Okay.
11 Thank you, Secretary.
12 Yes, because we have been in this together. And,
13 you know, it's been very trying for I know my staff over the
14 last year and a half. So I just want to make sure that they
15 are able to communicate to the angry constituents that might
16 be calling here.
17 So thank you very much.
18 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
19 REPRESENTATIVE SNYDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
21 Representative Davanzo.
22 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 And thank you, Secretary, for joining us this
24 morning.
25 We had stated this morning that June 8th is the
27 1 day that the BenMod System will go-live. What are the
2 technical tasks that are left to make sure that we're
3 hitting that day?
4 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
5 Representative, for your question.
6 We actually have -- I attend weekly updates with
7 the BenMod or UC Modernization IT team within the Department
8 of Labor & Industry and also GSI who is our vendor. And I
9 know Mr. O'Brien and also Deputy Secretary Trusky, who are
10 also on the call for the hearing, have attended meetings
11 every day with our IT staff.
12 So I believe my understanding is that it's a lot
13 of testing right now. There is a lot of interface testing
14 that's going on.
15 However, Bill, maybe you'd care to weigh in on
16 what's left for the project. I believe it's 92 percent
17 complete.
18 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Correct.
19 There are a handful of interfaces that we are
20 testing. You know, we meet, as the Secretary said, daily on
21 the issues. We're very close. We're rounding the corner on
22 the last lap. The staff is very, very excited. With regard
23 to staff and testing, the responses have been overwhelmingly
24 positive. And to that, as the Secretary said, as we always
25 do, I have to thank all of our staff for the job they have
28 1 been doing the last 14 months. It's been incredibly trying
2 for all of us. But, you know, they have never wavered and
3 they're on the front lines hearing from a lot of folks who
4 need our help.
5 As far as from a project standpoint, it's just a
6 couple of interfaces that need tightening.
7 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: Okay. Great. Glad to
8 hear that.
9 And how many -- you know, I don't need an exact
10 number, but maybe a percentage. How many of the actual
11 continuing claims will be transferred to the new system?
12 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Everything. All of
13 them.
14 And that's going to be the main -- that's the
15 reason for the blackout period that we've announced, you
16 know, potentially up to two weeks. Unfortunately, we'll
17 have to shut the system down. There's a lot of data that
18 needs to be transferred. So, yeah, everything will transfer
19 over.
20 Obviously, the PUA System is a standalone system.
21 So nothing in PUA will transfer. But all of the current
22 claims, some aged claims, will all be transferred over,
23 Representative.
24 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: All right. Great. Glad
25 to hear that.
29 1 And back in 2017, it was stated that the BenMod
2 System would make the UC System 5 to 10 percent more
3 efficient. Do you guys believe that number is still
4 accurate? Did it improve any as, you know, technology also
5 came along with us?
6 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Yes.
7 I think that's accurate. At the same time, it's
8 not going to eliminate the need for staff. I think we've
9 noticed in the last 14 months that staff are a critical part
10 of the Unemployment Compensation System in Pennsylvania.
11 But, yes, we'll see about that, Representative. We're still
12 looking at 5 to 10 percent in efficiencies.
13 And to go back to Representative Nelson with
14 regards to being more self-service, that is great. And I'm
15 sure that you will work it out in the future. However, you
16 know, folks are going to have to be patient with the system
17 as claimants learn and it becomes new to everyone.
18 So, you know, there will be a learning period
19 with regards to people being able to do more for themselves.
20 With that will come more questions. We've learned that with
21 talking to the other states that use GSI modernized
22 products. So, you know, people are going to be patient as
23 we roll this out.
24 We will be the second largest state in the nation
25 to have modernized. Only Florida, larger than us,
30 1 modernized in 2013. So we're looking forward to it, but
2 there will be some growing pains.
3 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: I just want to mirror my
4 colleague's comments on the messaging. Anything we can do
5 to help out so that we're getting good, accurate
6 information, you know, back in our districts -- because if
7 we're putting out, you know, information that's misleading,
8 it's just going to cause chaos for all of us -- you know, we
9 are here to help.
10 And thank you for your time this morning.
11 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Thank you.
12 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
14 Representative Pisciottano.
15 REPRESENTATIVE PISCIOTTANO: Thank you, Mr.
16 Chairman.
17 And thank you, Madam Secretary, for joining us
18 today along with your staff.
19 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: You're welcome.
20 REPRESENTATIVE PISCIOTTANO: I have a comment and
21 then a question. My comment is really that the earlier that
22 you can involve our staff in testing the system before it
23 goes live, the better, even if it's selecting some staff
24 members from across the state to, for lack of a better
25 phrase, go in and try and break it before it goes live so
31 1 that we can figure out the issues before we're actually
2 doing this for our constituents. I would highly recommend
3 that as part of the implementation plan.
4 I'm sure you're doing user testing now
5 internally, but getting it out into a semi-real world
6 environment and trying to break it and fix those things
7 before the full go-live I think is going to be a benefit for
8 everyone. So I encourage you to consider that as part of
9 your implementation plan.
10 My question is really about the division of labor
11 between the BenMod implementation. And as we're talking
12 about clearing the backlog of cases that Representative
13 Innamorato asked for a time on, is the implementation of
14 BenMod taking away from the ability to clear the backlog or
15 is that a completely separate part of the organization?
16 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: I will let Deputy
17 Secretary Trusky weigh in on that.
18 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: You know, it is a fair
19 question, a fair point. Obviously, we can't do everything.
20 Our staff needs to be trained on the new system. So you may
21 see some lag time as our folks get up to speed .
22 It's not our intent to slow down at all. We're
23 still offering, you know, overtime, seven days a week, in
24 the evenings, both on Saturdays and Sundays.
25 That is a fair point, Representative. And you
32 1 may see a slowdown somewhat as we get our folks up to speed
2 with the new system.
3 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: So we would expect the
4 trend in clearing the backlog to slow down around the BenMod
5 implementation?
6 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: It's possible.
7 It's obviously not what we'd like to see. And
8 we're going to do everything to try and prevent that. But
9 again, as I said, we have a lot on our plate. We want to
10 go-live to be as successful as possible and our staff is as
11 familiar with the system as possible.
12 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: And is the expectation
13 that once we get into BenMod and it is fully transitioned,
14 those will speed up?
15 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Absolutely.
16 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: There will be a blip
17 where it's a slowdown but then we'll get back and the pace
18 will increase even further once we switch to BenMod, right?
19 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Absolutely. Correct.
20 And there's some efficiencies in the system that
21 help us clear that backlog as well.
22 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: Okay. Thank you.
23 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Thank you.
24 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
25 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
33 1 Representative Keefer.
2 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
3 Madam Secretary, I don't want to belabor this
4 issue too much, but I don't think I have a clear
5 understanding of exactly where we're at.
6 I can't walk anywhere in my district right now
7 without getting assailed by employers who are desperately
8 looking for employees. And that's in every industry, every
9 sector of our economy right now. They're very desperate.
10 This is going to be a huge issue for our economic recovery.
11 If we don't have a workforce there to support it, we're
12 never going to get over this hurdle. It's critical this is
13 put in place.
14 So can you help me better understand like what is
15 your goal to reinstate the work requirements, the work
16 search requirements? Like, what is your timeline that
17 you're looking at?
18 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you for your
19 question, Representative.
20 Internally we've had many discussions about
21 timeline for work search, work registration. I think what
22 we're looking at is likely doing a phased-in approach. You
23 know, the UC Modernization System does have a work search
24 question that asks if a claimant has engaged in work search.
25 So, you know, obviously, that's being evaluated
34 1 as being a date to potentially implement work search,
2 although again, like I said, we're meeting with stakeholders
3 to get feedback on that possibility. And if that were the
4 case, then potentially we would implement work registration
5 in September.
6 So that's currently what we're looking at.
7 However, that is subject to change.
8 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: So you're not going to
9 start phasing these in until September at all?
10 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: No.
11 Work search would be phased -- we're looking at
12 phasing in work search in June and then work registration,
13 which is just registration with the CareerLink, in
14 September. So that's currently what we're looking at.
15 However, that is not a set-in-stone plan. Again, we're
16 meeting with stakeholders to discuss that.
17 Also, Representative, I would be remiss if I
18 didn't mention that we do have several workforce development
19 initiatives underway to connect dislocated workers with jobs
20 through our PA CareerLinks. Also we have a program where we
21 are looking at individuals who are close to extending their
22 benefits or to losing their benefits. However, obviously
23 with the Federal extensions, that's made it a bit
24 challenging. But we are still moving forward with those.
25 And also we're engaging in a communication
35 1 initiative to advertise work registration with the
2 CareerLink System so that individuals have that information
3 at their fingertips.
4 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Okay.
5 So -- so why can't -- why wait until June? I
6 mean, we're getting into construction season. It's a busy
7 time right now. I mean, these are work sites that, you
8 know, they're extending the due dates or, you know, project
9 dates by six, seven months. And most of this isn't supplies
10 or materials or the actual time it takes to do work, but
11 it's getting the workers. So why not start phasing that in
12 now?
13 I mean, I understand you said there are system
14 limitations. But the system is in place, correct? So why
15 not start phasing in and maybe even alphabetically, where
16 you start, you know, everybody A, B, and C, we're going to
17 start phasing that in. Why not take that type of an
18 approach to help us before we get into the summer?
19 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Representative, it's
20 not as easy as it sounds to implement work search. First of
21 all, it's been turned off. So phasing it in with our old
22 mainframe Legacy System is not something that we want to do
23 right now.
24 Also furthermore, we're still rolling out
25 vaccinations and we're still ensuring the health and safety
36 1 of Pennsylvanians. You know, anything sooner than June
2 doesn't really make sense at this point.
3 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Except it does make sense
4 for the workforce that's really struggling right now.
5 Now, the only other question I have is, when do
6 you plan -- like knowing that you're going to eventually
7 phase this in, and if you're doing it in June, then when are
8 the workers -- when are you going to start communicating
9 with the workers that, hey, this waiver is going to come to
10 an end? When are you going to start communicating with them
11 to help them prepare to understand that, hey, this
12 requirement is going to be back into effect?
13 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
14 Representative.
15 Our intent is that when we do make a decision as
16 to when we're phasing in work search and work registration,
17 we will have a communication plan so that we can ensure that
18 our claimants know that that is a requirement and what they
19 need to do to meet that requirement.
20 Again, we've also engaged a PR firm to help us
21 with that messaging so that we are doing it correctly and
22 appropriately .
23 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Okay.
24 And so is there something that you could approach
25 even like industrywide, right, to start looking at those in
37 1 certain workforces, especially if you have, you know,
2 outside, you know, construction-type jobs, trades, where,
3 you know, it's the issues of the virus isn't as prevalent in
4 those types of work atmospheres that you could even start
5 phasing them in there? I'm just trying to figure out, you
6 know, how do we get this moving quicker to help everybody?
7 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Representative, we
8 have evaluated looking at, you know, phasing it in for
9 certain specific claimants. But frankly, at this point, all
10 of our resources are focused on processing claims and going
11 live with BenMod. We do not have the resources to do a
12 complex phase-in for work search and work requirements. It
13 needs to be turned on all at once or not at all.
14 Another thing I have to mention is that even when
15 we do phase in work search or work registration, because of
16 the current workloads that we have as a result of the
17 pandemic, it's going to be very difficult for us to even
18 enforce it.
19 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Okay. Thank you.
20 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: You're welcome.
21 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
23 Representative Mizgorski joining us virtually.
24 REPRESENTATIVE MIZGORSKI: Thank you, Mr.
25 Chairman.
38 1 Thank you, Secretary.
2 I do have a question. You keep mentioning the
3 stakeholders. I would like to know, who are the
4 stakeholders that you're meeting with to discuss phasing
5 back in the work search requirement? And my other question
6 is -- and Representative Snyder mentioned about our
7 legislative staff being on the front lines and really
8 working with the Department to help out with the process of
9 unemployment claims.
10 They have been doing this without that direct
11 access to their liaisons, which has really handicapped them.
12 With the new system coming up, are they going to have access
13 again, direct access, to the liaisons where they can, you
14 know, pick up the phone or e-mail them directly and get a
15 reply? When are you going to phase that part back in?
16 Thank you.
17 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
18 Representative.
19 I'll answer the stakeholder question and refer
20 the second question to Secretary Trusky.
21 We have met with the Chamber, the Pennsylvania
22 Chamber. We've also met with AFL-CIO and SCIU. I have
23 personally met with several employers and also Senators and
24 Representatives to discuss implementation of phasing in work
25 search and work registration.
39 1 Obviously, we're not done reaching out to
2 stakeholders. We will continue to do so. And we'll
3 continue to do so through Labor & Industry because that is
4 the name of our agency.
5 REPRESENTATIVE MIZGORSKI: Okay. Thank you.
6 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: And, Representative, as
7 far as direct access to legislative liaisons, you know, I
8 think back in December we instituted a new program that
9 legislative staff have been using. It's worked very well.
10 I believe we're down to less than a week as far as
11 turnaround time with that system.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MIZGORSKI: It may be less than a
13 week to get some kind of generic reply. But it really
14 doesn't hit home for, you know, fixing whatever the problem
15 is for that individual claimant. And so that process, you
16 know, just is not as easy. They find themselves when they
17 -- when my staff gets information through that system, it's
18 very generic and then they have to come back and ask
19 questions or say, hey, that wasn't what was asked. It's
20 completely different.
21 Whereas when you had that direct, you know, to
22 the person phone call or e-mail, you know, and the liaison
23 could look it up and you could speak to one another, you
24 could just share information a lot easier and more quickly.
25 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: I appreciate that
40 1 feedback. And I think we have to find a balance between
2 quantity and quality. You know, everybody wants an answer
3 as quick as possible. And our staff is trying to do that.
4 You know, we will continue to evaluate the system. And as
5 we move closer to BenMod go-live, we'll look at access to
6 the legislative office and figure out the best way to serve
7 your constituents.
8 REPRESENTATIVE MIZGORSKI: Okay.
9 But at this time, you don't have plans to sort of
10 reinstate the way it used to be done?
11 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: No. It all depends on
12 where we are volumewise. You know, the Leg Office in Labor
13 & Industry is a shop of four. So, you know, they have other
14 duties besides, you know, Unemployment Comp claims.
15 Again, I'm all about, you know, making sure that
16 your constituents receive the customer service they deserve.
17 And as I said, we will evaluate. And we do appreciate your
18 feedback.
19 Thank you.
20 REPRESENTATIVE MIZGORSKI: Thank you.
21 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Sure.
22 REPRESENTATIVE MIZGORSKI: Thank you, Mr.
23 Chairman.
24 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
25 Representative Pisciottano.
41 1 REPRESENTATIVE PISCIOTTANO: Thank you.
2 I have a question that kind of piggybacks on
3 Representative Mizgorski's question. I agree that the
4 legislative system is much more efficient now. We're
5 getting responses back from the Department five to seven
6 days and that's great. However, it's kind of a one-way
7 conversation. We send information over. And then they send
8 us a response back. And the issue is then marked as closed
9 or completed.
10 But in many cases, if there's a response to that,
11 to the -- a local response to the Department's response,
12 right, there's no way to facilitate that response without
13 opening a completely new claim with the Department.
14 So we've had a number of individuals with contact
15 cases that end up having three to five different legislative
16 requests because of the back -- there's no avenue for back
17 and forth. You know, we throw this over to you. You throw
18 us back a response. We throw you back a response.
19 So if there was some way either in the current
20 system or the planned new systems to actually have a two-way
21 conversation, even through the current legislative system,
22 that would be very helpful, right, because then my staff
23 doesn't have to reopen a claim. It doesn't have to sit
24 there for another seven days. This same person could
25 respond to the issue that already originally addressed it.
42 1 It would just be a little bit more efficient for
2 both your staff and my staff if they could have a little bit
3 more of a back-and-forth rather than just one direction in
4 each direction.
5 So I don't know if that's even possible, but I
6 did want to highlight that as something that I hope that the
7 Department will look at.
8 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Representative, we
9 actually have that in the works. However, with our
10 resources being pulled towards our customer service project
11 and also with implementation of BenMod, you know, that's
12 kind of been delayed.
13 So our plan is still to add that feature to the
14 legislative database. However, it's just going to take a
15 little bit because we need to get our customer service
16 project underway, which is essentially modeled on the
17 legislative database. So we are making that upgrade.
18 REPRESENTATIVE PISCIOTTANO: Okay.
19 I appreciate that. I wanted to make sure it was
20 on your radar because that would be a big fix for efficiency
21 purposes.
22 So thank you.
23 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Sure.
24 REPRESENTATIVE PISCIOTTANO: Thank you, Mr.
25 Chairman.
43 1 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
2 Representative Klunk joining us virtually.
3 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4 And thank you, Secretary and staff, for joining
5 us today.
6 I wanted to follow up on some of the BenMod
7 rollout questions, line of questioning, from before. When
8 it comes to the contractor, are they going to be in-house
9 with the Department of Labor here as you do the rollout or
10 are they working remotely? What type of a setup do we have
11 to make sure that they are available to quickly respond and
12 make sure that the system is as live as possible for as long
13 as possible?
14 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Yes.
15 I believe, Representative Klunk, leadership will
16 be on hand. When we go-live, they will be live. Obviously,
17 there are developers, etc., that will be in their main
18 offices down in Florida where GSI is located. So it will be
19 a combination. We will also have our IT folks on hand. We
20 are hosting the system. And we will have an IT team
21 available as well.
22 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: That's really great to
23 hear.
24 Now, when it comes to, you know, down the road if
25 there are issues, what's in the contract for, you know, if
44 1 GSI comes to, you know, issues that crop up here at the
2 beginning of the rollout but then afterwards? Are we going
3 to have to pay any additional money for them to, you know,
4 help with these fixes now in the long run? What's that
5 setup when it comes to the contract?
6 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: There's a maintenance
7 portion of the contract, you know, as we move forward.
8 Obviously, we need to pay for maintenance for
9 them addressing system issues as they arise. And, you know,
10 GSI currently hosts the PUA system. And granted, no PUA
11 system in the country has been flawless or worked well. I
12 mean, it was a brand-new system. We stood it up in 27 days.
13 But anytime we have had issues with the PUA
14 system, GSI has been very responsive in fixing it. There's
15 a commitment from their leadership that they will do the
16 same with our modernized system. So, you know, we will be
17 able to address those issues because of the maintenance
18 agreement in our current contract.
19 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: That's good to hear.
20 Now, if there's a major problem that comes up
21 with this transfer over, will the Department have the
22 ability to keep the old mainframe system while you do fixes
23 to the new BenMod if something major were to come up? Do
24 you have the ability to go back and forth at all?
25 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: It's very, very
45 1 difficult, Representative, once we transfer the data. You
2 know, that is the absolute worst-case scenario. You know,
3 we're not anticipating that. However, I don't know the
4 exact technical way we could go back. But I could get back
5 to you on that.
6 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: Okay.
7 I just want to make sure that, you know, we're
8 prepared for that worst-case scenario just because the
9 system is so important. It's so big. And we can't, as
10 we've learned over the past year, you know, go a day without
11 the system. I know that there was a system glitch the other
12 day. We can't afford that.
13 So I really believe we need to have a plan to
14 make sure that we're not down for a long period of time.
15 And then if it's not going to work with BenMod and if
16 there's still glitches, let's all say some prayers that it
17 doesn't happen. We'll all be praying that it works on day
18 one. But if not, we need to have a backup plan ready to go
19 because our constituents, they're still going to be filing
20 and submitting those claims.
21 We need to make sure that there is something in
22 place.
23 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Yes.
24 We wholeheartedly agree. You know, as I stated
25 earlier, we'll be the second largest state in the country to
46 1 modernize. I mean, that's something that our folks, and
2 actually the Legislature, should be commended for in
3 recognizing and giving us the dollars to make this happen.
4 You know, it's big news in the world of unemployment across
5 the nation when Pennsylvania, knock on wood, has a
6 successful go-live.
7 We appreciate all your support.
8 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: Well, I'm knocking on wood
9 right now. I'm knocking on my desk right now.
10 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Thank you.
11 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: We're all saying prayers
12 that this all goes well.
13 I do want to thank you. I know another
14 representative had mentioned having staff do some of the
15 beta testing. One of my staffers was that guy to try and
16 break the system to make sure that, you know, all of those
17 scenarios were, you know, taken into account.
18 I know we went through a number of the issues and
19 brought up some of the constituents, the curveballs that we
20 got over the past year to try and throw the system's way to
21 see what would happen. And he was very impressed. You
22 know, there were a couple little quirky things that I think
23 you guys had been working on.
24 And I just really appreciate, you know, taking
25 that feedback that was received during those sessions and
47 1 trying to make the system better. And we really look
2 forward to the rollout.
3 Thank you.
4 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Yes.
5 Thank you for mentioning that. I did want to
6 mention that to Representative Pisciottano. We have done
7 that with some legislative staff. We have involved all four
8 caucuses. And again, the feedback was very, very positive.
9 As you said, there were some little glitches that we are
10 fixing. And from an expectation standpoint, you know, I
11 think we'll see some of those glitches when we do go-live.
12 Your questions were appropriate. How are we
13 going to respond? We need the appropriate staff, both our
14 IT and GSI's folks, to be able to respond quickly if there
15 are problems.
16 Thank you.
17 REPRESENTATIVE KLUNK: All right.
18 Well, thank you.
19 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
21 Representative Nelson. I would also -- give me one moment,
22 Representative Nelson.
23 If any others have questions, please don't
24 hesitate to contact me or your Executive Directors,
25 Representative Mullery. Just let us know. We have the
48 1 Department here. They're willing to answer questions. They
2 have been very forthright with us thus far. So if you have
3 follow-up questions or initial questions, for that matter,
4 please don't hesitate to contact us and let us know.
5 So with that, I'll pass it on to Representative
6 Nelson.
7 REPRESENTATIVE NELSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
8 And I, too, am knocking on wood for BenMod. You
9 know, the $30 million reinvestment is something I think
10 everyone is really encouraging. And we're going to have
11 this new system that's rolling out.
12 My question -- I just want to circle back to the
13 work requirements or the work search element of it. I'm
14 just confused about we're going to roll out a $30 million
15 system, which will be nationally recognized as being great.
16 But the element of the work-search requirement is so
17 important to reduce people from the system.
18 And if I was understanding you, Madam Secretary,
19 you had said that there will be a communication rollout
20 plan. I mean, as we're coming into the spring and we're
21 coming into construction and we have existing bandwidth at
22 our CareerLinks, I'm just confused as to why we are not
23 engaging even in sending a letter to the people that are
24 currently in the system now that -- because we have all this
25 talent at our CareerLinks. And we have all those employers
49 1 wanting to hire. You know, at some point, we must engage.
2 And I respect that a phasein may be computer difficult. But
3 if I was understanding, we brought PUA up in 21 days -- or
4 27 days.
5 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 Why not engage our CareerLinks now even in
7 notification to the citizens of Pennsylvania that work
8 search is coming back in June and let's get things started.
9 We won't get everyone. But instead of having a rush, we
10 will get people to reengage with their employers. All these
11 resources are available, but if we just sit back like it's
12 never going to be perfect -- just help me understand why
13 we're not starting that work search element as well.
14 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
15 Representative.
16 And this is something that sounds like an easy
17 premise but has actually become kind of complicated,
18 especially with coming out of this pandemic. We do have
19 workforce development initiatives underway where we have
20 CareerLinks staff directly reaching out to unemployment
21 claimants to try to let them know about the resources that
22 are within the CareerLinks as far as training, education,
23 and positions that are available. So we are doing that
24 specific targeted outreach, which is something we've never
25 done before. So that's something that is occurring.
50 1 As far as the PUA system and how simple it seems,
2 well, the PUA system is not a complete system. It was
3 something that was kind of thrown up but it doesn't have all
4 the bells and whistles that our modernized system will have.
5 You know, we don't have certain connections to, like, our
6 appeals system. There's certain missing components of the
7 PUA system that we are actually required to have in the
8 modern UC System.
9 And also, you know, based on Federal law, State
10 law, State regulations, the modernized UC System is a much
11 more complex system than the PUA Program.
12 REPRESENTATIVE NELSON: Madam Secretary, in
13 focusing on the work search element of it and in the
14 importance of engaging that, because we have -- and I
15 completely agree -- enormous talent with our CareerLinks and
16 we have employers that are wanting, but if the Department
17 doesn't signal to the people who are on unemployment and
18 they could come back, that, hey, this is going to be ending,
19 work search is coming, and you need to do this, we have good
20 people who are trying to make the connection, but if the
21 Department doesn't say, it's coming and you must reengage,
22 there isn't that incentive.
23 I guess the struggle is, if we continue to push
24 back implementation because we're concerned about the flood,
25 we will always have a flood. If we engage work search and
51 1 we allow our CareerLinks to start working through those
2 people and our employers to start hiring, coming into
3 construction season, not doing anything, to me, is almost
4 more concerning because we're going to miss a window of work
5 where millions of dollars could be earned by Pennsylvanians
6 just because we're not going to make that connection what is
7 already existing. We're underutilizing these CareerLinks
8 and employers who want to be able to hire.
9 I just strongly encourage you to, you know,
10 engage even in signaling with these third-party firms that
11 work search is coming. I mean, how many CareerLinks have
12 reached out to people? Do we know that numberwise?
13 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: I believe we had a
14 pilot program initially where it was five CareerLinks. But
15 then we have since expanded that, I believe, to 20
16 CareerLinks that are doing that.
17 REPRESENTATIVE NELSON: So I mean, it's great
18 it's happening. I mean, we agree on so much. I just would,
19 you know -- the importance of sending the message to people
20 that were there that work requirements are coming and that
21 they need to engage. Like, your authority in this arena
22 could really make a difference in Pennsylvania and everybody
23 will win.
24 I appreciate everything the Department is trying
25 to do. I just strongly encourage that we, you know, flip
52 1 that switch for work search and let people know it's coming.
2 Thank you very much.
3 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
4 Representative, for your feedback. We'll definitely take it
5 into consideration.
6 REPRESENTATIVE NELSON: Thank you.
7 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
9 Representative Irvin.
10 REPRESENTATIVE IRVIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
11 Thank you, Madam Secretary.
12 I commend you on your openness and transparency.
13 I think I have a lot of respect for that. And even if we do
14 not agree on all the issues, the fact that you give us an
15 honest and truthful answer is very important.
16 One thing that I sort of wanted to question, I
17 mean, whenever the PUA was initially rolled out, there were
18 many cases that afterwards it was discovered there were
19 instances of fraud where individuals really didn't qualify.
20 You had touched on it. The new BenMod System is being
21 implemented by the same company that did the PUA. And we
22 had some of those additional problems.
23 What kind of safeguards are you looking into?
24 You may have answered it whenever you answered some of
25 Representative Nelson's questions that the PUA was more of a
53 1 thrown-together system in 27 days versus a planned-out
2 BenMod System that's going on. You know things are going to
3 happen. But we have had instances of individuals contacting
4 our offices where they are receiving W-2s for Unemployment
5 that they have never actually received or even applied for.
6 What are we putting in to safeguard our
7 individuals, our Commonwealth, and even the system, as far
8 as that goes?
9 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: No. Thank you,
10 Representative.
11 And I appreciate you highlighting that. I don't
12 think this has been asked yet at this hearing are fraud
13 efforts, because they have been successful. The PUA system
14 was ripe for fraud. It was ripe for individuals who have
15 had stolen identity information to file for PUA claims
16 across the nation, not just in Pennsylvania. This was a
17 national problem. You know, because of the requirements of
18 the PUA Program, there weren't many checks and balances,
19 which made it a program ripe for fraud. And individuals
20 knew that. Fraudsters knew that.
21 You know, we were able to head it off by
22 partnering with ID.me where we do identity verification
23 through their system to ensure that individuals who are
24 applying are actually the individual themselves. And that's
25 been a very successful partnership.
54 1 Also recently we engaged -- not recently, but
2 during the course of this pandemic, we've engaged with
3 efforts with the Department of Treasury and also with our
4 own internal audits division within the Department who are
5 doing a fantastic job. And we've actually recouped over
6 $800 million between both agencies through our cooperation
7 in fraudulent UC funds. So, you know, we're doing a really
8 good job at that.
9 As far as the new system, there is internal
10 crossmatches within the system. The UC Program has more
11 documentation requirements. And there are more crossmatches
12 that can be done through the system.
13 Bill, is there anything you'd like to add as far
14 as, you know, fraud protection within the modernized system?
15 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: I wanted to add, you
16 know, when we first recognized the PUA fraud over Memorial
17 Day weekend of last year, our staff actively engaged with
18 law enforcement, the Attorney General's Office, the Federal
19 OIG, Department of Treasury. So our staff needs to be
20 commended for catching this early on. We worked with GSI,
21 the vendor, and law enforcement to determine the fraud stops
22 that need to be put on claims. They will be instituted in
23 the new modernized system as well.
24 There's also internal fraud detection software
25 built in, as well as the Secretary mentioned, you know, the
55 1 crossmatches, the natural crossmatches that occur in a
2 regular UC System.
3 We are prepared to continue to fight the fraud in
4 the new system and do have those mechanisms in place.
5 REPRESENTATIVE IRVIN: Thank you, Secretary and
6 Deputy Secretary.
7 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
8 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Thank you.
9 REPRESENTATIVE IRVIN: One other update that
10 maybe hasn't been touched on yet today is last month you
11 indicated that there was going to be an additional 500
12 contractors hired and put forward.
13 If you could give us an update to the Committee
14 on how that's going. Are they all trained? Are they being
15 implemented still? What's happening there?
16 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: I will let Deputy
17 Secretary Trusky advertise the success of that so far.
18 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: So this is an
19 initiative we're very excited about. We're ahead of
20 schedule. You know, I know we announced it last month. Our
21 first group of folks come on board Monday. We'll start
22 training. We will start testing the new system a week
23 later. The new staff will start testing a week after that.
24 And we look to go-live, Representative, with that system on
25 May 10th. So, you know, it takes time obviously to hire
56 1 these folks. Our partner Inspiratech, as well as our folks
2 at OVR, have worked tirelessly to find folks willing to
3 engage with us.
4 So, you know, we're really looking forward to it.
5 And it will allow our staff to work these claims and address
6 these issues in a much faster fashion.
7 REPRESENTATIVE IRVIN: Thank you.
8 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Thank you.
9 REPRESENTATIVE IRVIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
11 Representative Rowe for another question.
12 REPRESENTATIVE ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 Madam Secretary, just sort of circling back to
14 the conversation that we had regarding the stakeholders. I
15 know Representative Mizgorski had also inquired about the
16 stakeholders.
17 You mentioned you were meeting with members of
18 the Legislature. I was wondering if you could clarify which
19 members you were meeting with, you know, what sort of
20 geographical areas they encompass. I have a significant
21 amount of manufacturing in my district. And obviously the
22 labor shortage is hurting every industry from landscaping to
23 hospitality, to manufacturing. But a lot of the
24 manufacturers in my district, they're not looking for one or
25 two employees. You know, they are looking for dozens, if
57 1 not hundreds, of employees. And if these manufacturers go
2 under, it's going to really be damaging not just to
3 districts like mine but to the Commonwealth and the
4 workforce as a whole.
5 So I was wondering if you could explain which
6 specific Legislators you were consulting, if you consulted
7 with Legislators with manufacturing heavy districts,
8 geographically speaking, if you spoke to a variety there.
9 Could you just give a little more specificity in
10 that regard?
11 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
12 Representative.
13 I mean, I've had individuals reach out to me
14 specifically to talk about this issue because of concerns in
15 their district. And this isn't just from one area of the
16 State. This is from rural areas, urban areas, from
17 different areas. And there's different needs across the
18 State.
19 So, you know, while I don't have a specific list
20 on me, I'm more than happy to discuss the issue with you.
21 Our Legislative Office is more than happy to discuss this
22 issue with you. If you have specific concerns, we'd love to
23 hear your feedback.
24 REPRESENTATIVE ROWE: Thank you.
25 Just as I mentioned in my previous line of
58 1 questioning, I think the most important thing is just having
2 a date nailed down as soon as possible. You know, as
3 previous members have referenced, it's going to be important
4 for people to know when they're going to be expected to
5 return to work, so there's not, you know, sort of a mad rush
6 that creates more havoc than we already have. I think it's
7 important to have that hard start date.
8 But also I would say that if you and the
9 Department, if you are all looking for some
10 boots-on-the-ground feedback, feel free to consider me or
11 any of my colleagues a resource. You know, we are
12 interacting on a daily basis with these employers and these
13 employees.
14 I think it's really important to hear their
15 feedback going forward. I'm happy to offer myself if you
16 guys need any sort of consultation. But the No. 1 thing I
17 would say is we need a hard and fast start date so that our
18 employers and our employees can be prepared.
19 Thank you, Madam Secretary.
20 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
21 REPRESENTATIVE ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
22 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Thank you, Representative
23 Rowe.
24 Next we have Representative Keefer for some
25 additional questions.
59 1 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
2 Madam Secretary, you mentioned the PR -- that
3 you're hiring a PR firm to work with you on a communication
4 strategy with those in the system.
5 Do you have that strategy yet or that plan or any
6 kind of timeline for that?
7 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you,
8 Representative, for your question.
9 We have been working -- our Communications Office
10 has been working closely with that PR firm. We do have a
11 communication, an internal document, that is our
12 communications plan. That is a working, breathing, living
13 document that we share with the PR firm and garner feedback.
14 Plus, you know, there's also -- I know there is
15 weekly -- this is part of our strategic plan, the UC's
16 strategic plan that we developed as an agency.
17 Communications is an important objective of that plan.
18 So as such, we have weekly touchpoint meetings
19 with our Comm Shop to discuss the BenMod or the UC
20 Modernization Communication Plan as well internally so that
21 everybody in the agency and leadership and management are on
22 the same page as well.
23 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Okay.
24 And I do want to thank you. I mean, since you've
25 kind of taken the helm, we have seen a great improvement
60 1 quite frankly. And I know that you, you know, are starting
2 from a disadvantage point to begin with. We have made some
3 great strides. I'm just trying to figure out like what the
4 timeline is and how we're going to get there with some of
5 these.
6 Would it be possible for you to provide to us
7 once you have it what the communication plan is in terms of
8 work requirements and BenMod and with the users of the
9 system? Is that something you can get to us?
10 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: We will certainly work
11 with our Legislative Office to provide information. I know
12 it's very important to all of us that we make sure
13 communications are sound and solid with our claimants and
14 our stakeholders. So we can work with our Legislative
15 Office on providing some information.
16 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Okay. Just more in the
17 lines of a timeline once you have that more nailed down.
18 And then just for points of reference, I know
19 resources is one of the big things and you have -- one of my
20 colleagues touched on your temps, the 500 employees.
21 Can you tell me how many people are currently --
22 what percentage of the L&I workforce is currently working,
23 is back? Is everybody working?
24 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: It's all-hands-on deck
25 here. Everybody is working at the Agency.
61 1 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Okay. How many are
2 actually onsite working at the office?
3 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: I'd have to get back
4 to you on that. I know that various -- we have 90 offices
5 across the -- 90-plus offices across the Commonwealth.
6 Bill, can you give that from a UC perspective?
7 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: I don't know
8 numberswise, Representative.
9 However, in all six of our Service Centers, we
10 have a rotating group of staff that goes into the office.
11 You know -- and as the Office of Administration gives
12 guidance to open up more, we will do that. So we are
13 prepared and ready to have staff in the office that need to
14 be in the office. At the same time, we've noticed some
15 efficiencies in working from home as well.
16 You know, we'll find that right balance.
17 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: So can you tell me or
18 either of you what percentage, though? What percentage are
19 we looking at that are actually back in the office?
20 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: I'm not even going to
21 begin to guess. I mean, it changes daily. You know,
22 different offices are larger. You know, Erie is much larger
23 than Indiana, etc. I mean, I don't want to just guess,
24 Representative.
25 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Okay.
62 1 Madam Secretary, do you have any idea what
2 percentage?
3 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Representative, we can
4 get back to you with that information.
5 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY DIRECTOR ROBERT O'BRIEN: I can
6 tell you from the rest of the Agency perspective that we'll
7 work on getting you that number, but it changes daily
8 because there's people that are constantly coming in and
9 out, providing services, and then working from home.
10 REPRESENTATIVE KEEFER: Thank you.
11 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
13 Representative Maloney joining us virtually.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
15 I trust you can hear me.
16 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Yes, we can.
17 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Okay. Thank you.
18 Thank you all for being here.
19 Mr. Trusky, I think you inspired some extra
20 thoughts or questions from me with respect to some of the
21 Representatives asking questions about cost.
22 I think you also mentioned, Bill, some things
23 about the fraud that has been a tremendous concern for me.
24 I was wondering if you can and will comment on the
25 potential, if you will, on cost of the fraud and is there
63 1 anything hindering with respect to the fraud and how
2 people's benefits are being allocated?
3 And I'm going to -- in full disclosure, Bill, I'm
4 going to tell you that I have a contact in the IRS who has
5 told me that they are so deep in the weeds, that their staff
6 is so inundated with the fraud investigations of
7 Pennsylvania's Unemployment. That's kind of what prompted
8 me after I heard you say what you did.
9 I thought maybe you could speak to that.
10 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: I'd counter that with,
11 it's not only Pennsylvania, Representative. I mean, there
12 was a story a couple months ago that California experienced
13 over $30 billion in fraud in their PUA system. And there's
14 been multiple national stories about the amount of fraud
15 across the country.
16 Again, as I stated earlier, I thought we did a
17 very good job in catching it early, working with law
18 enforcement, complying with all their subpoenas, etc. You
19 know, it does hinder people getting benefits. Our folks are
20 spending a lot of time working on fraudulent claims,
21 determining if that individual deserves benefits. So, yeah,
22 it is a huge hindrance.
23 You know, our folks alone have suppressed over
24 20,000 1099s because of identity theft. Our Internal Audits
25 Division has prevented $55 million in fraud alone. And then
64 1 on Monday we issued a joint press release with Treasury.
2 You know, we've prevented $800 million in fraud because of
3 our fraud measures that we partnered with as far as going to
4 issuance of checks early on, switching to debit cards.
5 It's a nationwide problem. You know, these
6 fraudsters are very experienced. They are organized crime
7 rings, etc. You know, obviously we're trying to prevent any
8 type of fraud we can, but it's a huge effort.
9 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: I know that. And I
10 appreciate that, Bill.
11 My only comment about the country -- I realize
12 it's a whole countrywide, but I can't really -- I mean, I'm
13 concerned but I'm a PA Rep. I'm not a California Rep. So
14 to me, looking at what would benefit or what would hurt
15 Pennsylvania was why I was sort of trying to isolate it to
16 PA.
17 And I know, Bill, you mentioned 55 million and
18 800 million. Did you say that you think we have saved 800
19 million in fraud benefits?
20 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Correct.
21 It's actually dollar figures that we've clawed
22 back that we've received. You know, Treasury received
23 either return checks, debit cards, etc., yes, sir.
24 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Okay. Thank you.
25 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Sure.
65 1 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: So is there a figure
2 that -- and I know this is sort of a difficult question on a
3 couple levels. But is there a figure that we might be able
4 to calculate as to what the fraud has cost Pennsylvania?
5 And that's no fault of anybody, other than the fact that as
6 you said, there's fraudsters out there with all kinds of
7 crafty ways to try to steal. So do we have a number as to
8 what this could have cost Pennsylvania?
9 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: No.
10 It's something that I'd have to ask staff if we
11 can look into and drill down. You know, from a benefit
12 standpoint, the majority of the fraud has, you know, come
13 from the Pandemic Relief Programs. The majority of the
14 monies are Federal monies, unfortunately. From a
15 Pennsylvania standpoint, it's not our dollars. However, it
16 is our duty to protect that money. And we are doing our
17 best. But as of now, Representative, we don't have an exact
18 figure on what it costs.
19 I assume you mean staff time, etc., as well?
20 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: Well, that could be.
21 And I know that's, as you said, sort of zeroed down on more
22 of the details. But for me, it would be more in the light
23 of if these monies were provided to the unemployed, and as a
24 result of fraud, we could have offered this or been able to
25 get this, and this money was unfortunately rediverted
66 1 because of the fraud.
2 And that's kind of more what I've been thinking
3 about, especially when we have folks, which has all been
4 sort of touched on today, that don't have an answer or
5 they're waiting. And some people do, you know, get that
6 check very late. But as in many cases, they're borrowing
7 from family and doing those things.
8 And I was trying to, you know, bring it full
9 circle to the impact where the fraudsters are costing us a
10 lot of money. And you already stated that you've interacted
11 with a lot of law enforcement. But I really thought it was
12 very concerning when I got that call. I think we all would
13 be.
14 Thanks so much.
15 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: It's incredibly
17 concerning. And again, it's unfortunate the amount of time
18 staff is taking to, you know, vet these claims and make sure
19 we're paying the people that are deserving of benefits.
20 That's the most unfortunate aspect of this. You know, it's
21 taking away from us getting to the folks who need our help.
22 From an ID.me standpoint, we started using them back in
23 October. You know, of all the e-mails we've sent to folks
24 asking them to verify their identity, only 20 percent of the
25 folks that we've asked to verify their identity in the PUA
67 1 system have actually done so. So, you know, unfortunately
2 fraud is rampant.
3 REPRESENTATIVE MALONEY: All right.
4 Thank you, Bill.
5 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
6 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Thanks.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Thank you.
8 Next we're going to go to Representative
9 Mackenzie, joining us virtually. I think he's audio only.
10 That's my understanding.
11 When you're ready, Representative Mackenzie.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MACKENZIE: Thank you, Mr.
13 Chairman.
14 Just to follow up on Representative Maloney's
15 questions regarding fraud in UC. I know the Department had
16 started an Office of Integrity under the Corbett
17 Administration, not only to investigate fraud in UC but also
18 charge those individuals that were found to have committed
19 fraud.
20 Is that something the Wolf Administration has
21 continued, the Office of Integrity?
22 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: We do not have an
23 Office of Integrity, Representative. We have our Internal
24 Audits Division that has long existed within Unemployment
25 that focuses solely on Unemployment Fraud. They're a group
68 1 of about 14 people. We're looking to expand their
2 complement.
3 So, you know, they work directly with law
4 enforcement, have worked with the Attorney General's Office,
5 Office of Inspector General. So, you know, that office
6 soley focuses on Unemployment Fraud.
7 REPRESENTATIVE MACKENZIE: So do you know why the
8 office of -- I mean, obviously huge amounts of fraud have
9 been uncovered but certainly a lot got through initially.
10 Why was the Office of Integrity discontinued in the Wolf
11 Administration?
12 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: I cannot answer that
13 question, Representative. I don't know.
14 Madam Secretary, Executive Deputy?
15 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: I actually can't
16 answer that question either. I wasn't involved with
17 unemployment at that time. I have no knowledge of that.
18 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY SECRETARY O'BRIEN: I was not
19 involved in unemployment at that time but I believe that was
20 a decision that was made by then Secretary Kathy Manderino.
21 REPRESENTATIVE MACKENZIE: Okay.
22 Well, thank you.
23 I mean, obviously that seems like it could have
24 been a very valuable program to stop a lot of the fraud. It
25 was a successful program in the Corbett Administration. And
69 1 again, with the spike in fraud that we've witnessed, I think
2 that extra layer of protection could have been useful. So I
3 would encourage you to look at reconstituting that office.
4 And again, if it's something that the Legislature
5 can help with, we are happy to help with that as well.
6 Thank you.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
8 Representative Davanzo.
9 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
10 Yes. I want to touch on Representative Keefer's
11 question as to how many of the UC personnel are actually
12 working at home or in the office. I'm just floored that we
13 don't know that answer. How do we not know that answer?
14 How can we hold people accountable, transparency for what's
15 going on there?
16 My background is a supervisor. Workforce, your
17 manpower, that's your No. 1 expenditure. How do we not know
18 that? With today's technology and computer systems, how do
19 we not know that?
20 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Our numbers vary,
21 Representative, from day to day. Our supervisors are in
22 constant contact with staff, with site administrators . I
23 think what matters is the work we're doing, not who's where.
24 You know, our folks are very much engaged with their
25 supervisors and managers. So, you know, we're focused on
70 1 the work, not whether someone is in an office or not.
2 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: I just have concerns
3 because if we don't know where they are working from, how do
4 we know what they are doing?
5 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: We do know where
6 they're working from.
7 REPRESENTATIVE DAVANZO: Maybe it's time we put
8 some legislation out there to get the UC personnel back into
9 the offices. I mean, maybe this is what this is coming to.
10 Thank you.
11 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Next we have
12 Representative Irvin.
13 REPRESENTATIVE IRVIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman,
14 again, for the second question.
15 First of all, I want to sympathize with the
16 Secretary's response whenever it comes to not beating a dead
17 horse on work requirements. You know, we are in the middle
18 of a pandemic and, you know, safety first.
19 And the idea is that, you know, I do believe that
20 there's been many in the private sector that have been
21 working throughout this whole pandemic and they have been
22 doing it safely. And the idea is that many of us don't have
23 the luxury or the flexibility in our jobs to be able to work
24 from home. They have essential job requirements and they
25 must go to work.
71 1 You know, so to clarify some of the work
2 requirements that have been talked about today and whether
3 we agree or disagree on that, from my understanding you say
4 June 8th, whenever the BenMod goes live, it's an on-and-off
5 button. I mean, either you have work requirements or you
6 don't have work requirements.
7 Clarify for me the phase-in process. If it's
8 going to be phased in, is it just on or off or is it going
9 to be certain sectors of businesses that may have to have
10 work requirements and certain that don't?
11 Maybe if you could just clarify that for a little
12 bit for me because I just want to make sure that we know
13 whenever work requirements are going to be implemented back
14 into the UC system, how will that take place?
15 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
16 It is a little complicated because there's two
17 pieces to this. There's work search and then there's also
18 work registration. So the work search requirement, that
19 requires claimants to perform three work search activities
20 each week. That means either applying for two jobs that
21 would provide for suitable work and completing at least one
22 of seven different work search activities, such as attending
23 a Career Fair, taking a Civil Service Exam, posting a resume
24 on a website, like on CareerLink or some other glassdoor, or
25 searching for a job on CareerLink or another Internet job
72 1 board. So that encompasses the work search requirement.
2 The work registration requirement requires
3 claimants to simply register with the CareerLink website.
4 And if they fail to do so, then they could lose their
5 benefits. The issue with the work registration is the
6 bandwidth or the capacity for our CareerLink system to
7 handle the amount of individuals who are on Unemployment to
8 register at the same time.
9 I mean, currently with the continuing claims, it
10 could potentially crash the site. So we have to work with
11 our staff to make sure that we're increasing server
12 capacity, bandwidth capacity, and to make sure that the
13 CareerLinks are also staffed up to handle the tsunami of
14 claimants who will be registering with the CareerLink sites.
15 So that's why we think a phased-in approach would
16 work best for this. Again, I don't believe we can do it by
17 industry type or by letters of your name. It's got to be
18 all on or all off. We just don't, you know, have the
19 capacity to phase it in in any other manner.
20 REPRESENTATIVE IRVIN: Thank you.
21 And I can respect that. But I mean, that's
22 something that we have been doing with our previous system
23 and I would think that the BenMod system, you know, would be
24 even more capable of handling an on-and-off switch than
25 comparably to the old. I mean, I guess I'm emphasizing and
73 1 pushing it out that, you know, the safety and security of
2 our families is, you know, utmost important to the
3 Legislature and your Agency but also the financial safety
4 and security of our businesses and the jobs, the
5 family-sustaining jobs, that they provide is just as
6 important.
7 And I think, you know, we need to make sure that
8 we get Pennsylvania's economy recovered as quickly as
9 possible. And by requiring work requirements, it is very
10 vital I think. So I'm encouraging yourself, your Agency,
11 and the Administration to move forward on them as quickly as
12 possible.
13 Thank you.
14 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
15 REPRESENTATIVE IRVIN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Thank you, Representative
17 Irvin.
18 Seeing no other questions from other members
19 either in person or virtually, I'm going to move to the last
20 two people to ask questions, Representative Mullery and then
21 myself.
22 Representative Mullery.
23 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: Thank you, Chairman
24 Cox.
25 And thank you, Madam Secretary, for your
74 1 attendance today.
2 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you.
3 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: There have been a lot
4 of questions about the work search and the desire, apparent
5 desire, for a quick implementation of that. And personally
6 I would caution again what Representative Rowe described as
7 a hard and fast start date for the implementation of the
8 work search program.
9 Personally to me, I mean, we're launching an
10 entirely new system that to be honest -- and it really
11 hasn't been discussed much here today -- has the possibility
12 to go horribly wrong. So my advice and my recommendation
13 would be for deliberate caution with the implementation of
14 the work search program and/or any other amendments to the
15 BenMod system that are going to present themselves as this
16 new system is launched.
17 Maybe, you know, to go along with that concern, I
18 mean, I'm excited. I think everybody in this room is
19 excited. We've been looking forward to this date for years.
20 But I think that excitement has to be tempered. I need look
21 no further than your testimony to find reasons for that.
22 You talk about in your testimony that there is
23 going to be a need to freeze the unemployment system for two
24 weeks ahead of the launch of the BenMod system for the
25 transfer of data.
75 1 And I can already hear the questions coming in
2 from those in the system as to what is going to happen to
3 their benefits for those two weeks. So can you address
4 that? And maybe if you need some more specific questions,
5 I'll give them to you.
6 Does that mean that claimants aren't going to get
7 benefits for those two weeks? Does it mean that your staff,
8 whether they're working from the office or at home, are
9 going to process those benefits for two weeks in advance,
10 etc.? Can you please just fill us in on that? Because I
11 think that's the first hurdle that we're going to come to
12 that is ripe for problems that we're going to receive calls
13 at our offices for.
14 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you, Chairman
15 Mullery.
16 I mean, that is certainly something that is
17 concerning and that we're already hearing questions about
18 and concerns about from claimants. The two-week period
19 where we will be pausing Unemployment claims will be for
20 data migration from our Legacy mainframe to the modern
21 system. This will not cause claimants to not get paid for
22 these two weeks. It simply delays the payments for two
23 weeks.
24 So I'll let Bill talk about this further.
25 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Thank you, Madam
76 1 Secretary.
2 You know, we understand, Chairman, that this is
3 going to be tough for folks, as was said numerous times. We
4 have an extensive communications plan. We worked with you
5 to get that information out to constituents. And we get
6 that it will cause some consternation for claimants as they
7 wait for the new system to come up.
8 As far as our staff, what they will be doing,
9 they will be doing extensive training on the site while the
10 old system is down. So it gives us some time for additional
11 training and getting our folks more in tune with the new
12 system.
13 Again, as we said with Representative Klunk,
14 fingers crossed, we're not looking for this to go horribly
15 wrong, although we understand the magnitude and what's in
16 involved with launching a successful go-live.
17 So thank you.
18 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: And like
19 Representative Klunk, it was my staffer who represented the
20 House Democrats as part of the training process. And again,
21 things went very well. But given what we've seen here in
22 the Commonwealth and really worldwide over the past two
23 years, I don't want to take anything for granted moving
24 forward.
25 So if I understood your answer to my question, it
77 1 was, there's going to be a delay in those two weeks' worth
2 of payments while the system transfers the data. The theme
3 throughout this hearing I think has been the need for
4 effective communication.
5 So I would hope and I'm looking for some
6 certainty from you that that delay is going to be relayed to
7 all of our constituents. Because as you know, when people
8 are working, a lot of them are living paycheck to paycheck.
9 When they're not, they're living unemployment check to
10 unemployment check.
11 So what is the Department's plan to make certain
12 that those folks know that there's going to be a delay while
13 this system transfers?
14 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Chairman, you know,
15 that obviously, as you pointed out, is definitely the pain
16 point for our claimants. And we recognize that and can
17 sympathize with that. So we do have extensive
18 communications planned regarding that particular part of the
19 go-live process. That will also be part of our training as
20 well.
21 You know, we understood that it's very important
22 to get the word out on that what we call blackout date now,
23 which is why it was initially announced in our press release
24 and also in our first media briefing. And we will continue
25 to spread the word on that and try to communicate to as many
78 1 stakeholders as possible.
2 And what I think is really critical is, you know,
3 as I mentioned previously, we're engaged with the non-profit
4 organization USDR and they're definitely helping us with
5 communication to stakeholders especially on that critical
6 lapse.
7 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: Thank you.
8 As I go forward, you're going to see all of my
9 questions are practical. Those are the issues that we deal
10 with. When I look at page 3 of your testimony, Madam
11 Secretary, you say, some of the issues will not and cannot
12 be resolved by the new system such as the difficulty with
13 transitioning claimants from State UC to the Federal PUA
14 Program, integration of PUA and UC systems will occur after
15 the go-live date.
16 Again, can you just share with us how this is
17 going to affect our constituents on a weekly or biweekly
18 basis depending on how they're getting their check?
19 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Right.
20 So the UC modernized system and the PUA system
21 will not speak together initially, if at all. I mean,
22 because of the temporary nature of the PUA system, you know,
23 we still need to evaluate whether we want to connect those
24 two systems. But it's still going to require a manual
25 process for us to switch those claims over.
79 1 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: So what, if any,
2 complications are our constituents going to see because of
3 that differentiation of systems?
4 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: I don't think we would
5 see a change from what's currently happening.
6 And, Bill, why don't you weigh in on this.
7 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Yes.
8 Secretary, you're exactly right. It's no
9 different than we are now trying to move claims from one
10 system to another. You know, unfortunately it's very
11 complex. We're trying to operate five different systems,
12 PUC, etc., EB, so there will be no difference. Those
13 systems will work more efficiently.
14 However, for moving PUA to traditional
15 unemployment, vice versa, there will be no change. There
16 will be a manual process for our folks, Chairman.
17 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: Okay.
18 Thank you.
19 Will the PAT system or something similar to that
20 still be available for UC claimants to file their claims
21 over the phones?
22 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Yes. We will not be
23 calling it PAT. That's the automated telephone system that
24 we currently use. But we will have an IVR system that's
25 available for claimants to use.
80 1 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: When?
2 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Two days after we
3 go-live with the new system. We will have a system that
4 does -- it won't have all the bells and whistles as our
5 current PAT system but people will be able to claim their
6 benefits biweekly using that system.
7 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: And just so that I
8 know and the members of the Committee know, do you know how
9 many claimants currently file by PAT weekly?
10 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: No, I don't have that
11 information in front of me. However, I'd be happy to get
12 that to the Committee, Mr. Chairman.
13 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: Thank you.
14 And then my last question is a followup to
15 something that was brought up by Representative Nelson.
16 It's my understanding that employers are going to
17 have access to the new system. I know that employee
18 representatives have made a similar request.
19 So first, what is the status of the Department's
20 response to the employee representatives' desire to have
21 access to the system? And secondly, if the answer to their
22 request has been no, is there any ability in the future to
23 give claimant representatives the same or similar access to
24 the new system?
25 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Mr. Chairman, that's
81 1 something that will have to be discussed post go-live. As
2 far as I'm aware, there's no UI system in the country that
3 grants that access to employee representatives.
4 But we are happy to engage with those
5 stakeholders after we go-live.
6 MINORITY CHAIRMAN MULLERY: Thank you very much.
7 Mr. Chairman, that's all I have.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Thank you.
9 I do have a few questions of my own. I want to
10 jump right into the phone system. It sounds like the IVR
11 system is not going to be as robust as the current PAT
12 system. Can you explain a little more on that aspect of
13 things?
14 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: The key difference, Mr.
15 Chairman, is you won't be able to check your claim balance.
16 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: So how will an individual
17 who has filed via the phone system, the new phone system,
18 how are they to check their balance or do any of the other
19 things?
20 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: They need to either log
21 in, establish a login with the modernized system, or contact
22 us.
23 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: And contact you by phone?
24 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: By phone, via e-mail,
25 you know, Chat. We're in the middle of instituting a
82 1 texting service.
2 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Okay. I'm concerned
3 we're making a lot of assumptions here. We still have rural
4 broadband issues in several parts of the state and around
5 the country. Obviously, we can't handle around the country
6 but we can acknowledge those. And that's one of the reasons
7 that we pushed to make sure that a phone system was
8 available.
9 I'm a little concerned that the replacement phone
10 system isn't comparable to the existing system. That's
11 concerning to me for a number of reasons. I don't
12 understand why we wouldn't at least replace it with
13 something at least equal, not necessarily making
14 improvements, but at least equal where claims can be
15 checked.
16 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Mr. Chairman, I think
17 it was the goal of the Legislature at the time to have as
18 many people use the new system as possible. So there's a
19 balance there. I mean, we'd like to see folks using the new
20 system but we also acknowledge the broadband problems across
21 the Commonwealth and therefore, you know, decided to have an
22 IVR system in conjunction with the modernized system.
23 So trying to find the balance. And, you know,
24 back when this was negotiated, there were a number of
25 legislators who didn't think an IVR system was necessary.
83 1 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Okay.
2 Perhaps that was before my time.
3 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: It was, Mr. Chairman.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Maybe I'm just
5 old-fashioned, I guess.
6 Okay. So I have a few more specific questions.
7 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Sure.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: ID.me issues continue to
9 plague my office and the offices of my colleagues. Under
10 BenMod, the new system, will a UC claimant be required to
11 use ID.me?
12 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: No, not initially.
13 However, that is something we are looking at as a
14 potential additional fraud prevention tool. The Department
15 of Labor, you know, is really looking at new ways to prevent
16 fraud. We understand that ID.me is not perfect. They
17 understand they are not perfect and they continue to work
18 through the issues.
19 As I've said previously, they are as responsive
20 as any vendor we work with as far as developing new ways to
21 address issues, etc. In June, starting in June, they are
22 going to be allowing people to go to UPS stores to verify
23 their identity. So, you know, we do recognize that.
24 However, 97 percent, we also noticed that 97
25 percent of the ID.me issues that Pennsylvania faces are not
84 1 identity related but related to another issue on someone's
2 claim. So, you know, as I acknowledged, they are not
3 perfect. No system is, especially in this environment, as
4 we learn as we go. But we are happy to have them as
5 partners.
6 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Like many of the other
7 systems that we've seen, there's a delay and a waiting time.
8 I'm currently being told that PUA claimants are waiting two
9 months for resolution of ID.me issues.
10 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Yes. I don't believe
11 that's true. If there's an identity issue -- if someone
12 verifies their identity and that's the only issue on the
13 claim, the claim is paid. So, you know, as I said just
14 previously, the vast majority of folks that do verify their
15 identity but still aren't paid are because of other issues
16 on their PUA claim, Mr. Chairman.
17 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Okay.
18 Next I'd like to speak to some overpayment
19 issues. I know our office has communicated with you and
20 others about the overpayment issues and some of the
21 non-fault overpayments. We're getting those call s now as
22 people are filing their taxes as they're looking over the
23 documents they received. Some of these are ongoing issues.
24 Others are cropping up now that they're looking at their tax
25 documents for the first time since they filed them away in a
85 1 drawer after receiving them earlier this year.
2 We've got claimants who were contacting us. It's
3 not one or two. It's a fair number. They contact us where
4 they received a non-fault overpayment in 2020 but the timing
5 of things, they ended up paying it back in 2021. Will they
6 receive documentation in 2022 so that they can show that
7 they actually returned the money and the taxes were paid?
8 Like, how is this all going to iron out when
9 there's something in the process there?
10 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Yes.
11 Mr. Chairman, that's how it's always happened.
12 And it will continue to happen that way. We're just
13 seeing -- you know, I mean, we used to see 15 to 20 cases of
14 this a year. That's it, 15 to 20. We're in, you know,
15 definite -- you know, as I said earlier, our unit has
16 surpressed 20,000 1099s because of identity theft.
17 You know, again, this is a developing situation
18 that we continue to address. And we acknowledge that it's a
19 main point because it affects people's taxes and filings.
20 You know, the guidance has been clear from the IRS. You
21 only report the income that you received. And hopefully
22 they followed through on that.
23 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Okay.
24 One last tangential issue. 1099-Gs, will
25 corrected forms be issued regarding -- like, what is the
86 1 timing on that for the corrected forms? Some people have
2 said, yes, I received it. But there's a higher amount,
3 things like that. So there are a number of issues that
4 things aren't tallying up. They're not totaling up with
5 what they actually received.
6 When will those types of corrected documents be
7 issued when needed?
8 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: There are a number of
9 issues associated with the 1099-Gs. It's dependent on that,
10 the issue at hand, Mr. Chairman. Some folks receive -- you
11 know, if we recognize it's an identity theft issue, they
12 will receive a correct 1099-G showing zero dollars. You
13 know, we do try to turn that around as quickly as possible.
14 For the other 1099 issues, you still receive a
15 corrected one the following year.
16 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Okay. All right.
17 Well, I do appreciate all of you being available
18 to us for these last couple of hours. I appreciate your
19 responses.
20 There were a number of Representatives that had
21 questions that you indicated you would get back to them. So
22 we'll count on you to do that. If you wouldn't mind, if you
23 would please forward those responses to both my Executive
24 Director and the Minority Executive Director as well just so
25 we can kind of follow up on that.
87 1 As you know, we're kind of the clearinghouse for
2 information with the legislative body. So us having the
3 information with those answers will help us disseminate that
4 information when those questions are asked.
5 Please copy us on those follow-up responses when
6 you provide that information.
7 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Sure.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRMAN COX: Again, thank you.
9 Seeing no other questions, I will adjourn this
10 meeting.
11 Have a good day.
12 ACTING SECRETARY BERRIER: Thank you. Have a
13 good day.
14 DEPUTY SECRETARY TRUSKY: Thank you.
15 EXECUTIVE DEPUTY SECRETARY O'BRIEN: Thank you.
16 (Whereupon, the hearing concluded.)
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88 1 I hereby certify that the proceedings and
2 evidence are contained fully and accurately in the notes
3 taken by me on the within proceedings and that this is a
4 correct transcript of the same.
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8 Jean M. Davis 9 Notary Public
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