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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 1
1 Special Tribunal for Lebanon
2 In the case of The Prosecutor v. Ayyash, Badreddine, Merhi,
3 Oneissi, and Sabra
4 STL-11-01
5 Presiding Judge David Re, Judge Janet Nosworthy,
6 Judge Micheline Braidy, Judge Walid Akoum, and
7 Judge Nicola Lettieri - [Trial Chamber]
8 Tuesday, 10 February 2015 - [Trial Hearing]
9 [Open Session]
10 --- Upon commencing at 10.03 a.m.
11 THE REGISTRAR: The Special Tribunal for Lebanon is sitting in an
12 open session in the case of the Prosecutor versus Ayyash, Badreddine,
13 Merhi, Oneissi, and Sabra, case number STL-11-01.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning to everyone. We're sitting to
15 hear the evidence of Mr. El-Chammaa today, but first before we start
16 could we please take appearances starting with the Prosecutor.
17 Good morning, Mr. Cameron.
18 MR. CAMERON: Good morning, Your Honour. It's Graeme Cameron for
19 the Office of the Prosecutor, assisted by Ms. Skye Winner.
20 MR. HAYNES: Good morning, Your Honour. Representing the
21 participating victims today, Peter Haynes with Joanna Spek.
22 MR. O'SULLIVAN: Your Honour, Eugene O'Sullivan, Alix Janssens,
23 and Eric Nguyen for Ayyash.
24 MR. EDWARDS: Good morning, Your Honours. Iain Edwards and
25 Lucia Sipala representing the interests of Mustafa Badreddine.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 2
1 MR. LAROCHELLE: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.
2 Sarah Marinier-Doucet and myself, Philippe Larochelle, to represent this
3 morning the interests of Mr. Oneissi. Good morning to one and all.
4 MR. METTRAUX: Good morning, Your Honours, Guenael Mettraux for
5 Mr. Sabra.
6 MR. KHALIL: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honour,
7 honourable Chamber, President, and honourable Judges. I'm Jad Khalil and
8 defend the interests -- the rights of Mr. Hassan Merhi. I'm assisted by
9 my colleague today Nathalie Leblanc.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And I note that there are three people
11 sitting in the spot where people from the Defence Office normally sit.
12 Mr. Cameron.
13 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Your Honour. The witness today and
14 tomorrow is Mr. El-Chammaa. Mr. El-Chammaa was a close friend and
15 business associate of the Prime Minister pretty much throughout their
16 entire adult lives. And I'll be asking Mr. El-Chammaa in broad-brush
17 strokes to testify about the Prime Minister's role in the development of
18 the Taif Accord, his relationship with Syria throughout the 1990s with
19 President Hafez Al-Assad, his relationship subsequently with
20 President Bashar Al-Assad. And I'll be asking Mr. El-Chammaa to tell the
21 Tribunal about what he knows about some of the meetings between
22 Prime Minister Hariri and President Bashar Al-Assad.
23 Mr. El-Chammaa was particularly well-situated to understand the
24 Prime Minister's continuing vision for the future of Lebanon and how he
25 planned to give effect to those ideas. And he will testify about his
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Procedural Matters (Open Session) Page 3
1 conversations with the Prime Minister around the period where the
2 extension of President Lahoud was an active political issue.
3 Mr. El-Chammaa, in addition, accompanied the Prime Minister on most of
4 his trips outside of Lebanon, and I'll be asking him about the
5 Prime Minister's relationships with various world leaders.
6 Mr. El-Chammaa can also testify about very meetings held between
7 Prime Minister Hariri and individuals such as Rustom Ghazaleh and
8 Hassan Nasrallah. Mr. El-Chammaa can also testify about certain payments
9 made by the Prime Minister to Rustom Ghazaleh and the purpose of those
10 payments.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you, Mr. Cameron. I also note so the
12 record is clear that Judge Braidy is joining us or participating in the
13 proceedings today via videolink from Beirut. And, Judge Braidy, I take
14 it you heard everything Mr. Cameron said just then?
15 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] Good morning, Judge Re, good
16 morning, everyone. Yes, I heard.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And we are ready to call the witness now,
18 Mr. Cameron.
19 MR. CAMERON: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What's Mr. El-Chammaa's current occupation,
21 Mr. Cameron?
22 MR. CAMERON: He's been a successful businessman the entirety of
23 his life and whether he's retired or not, I'm sure he still has
24 continuing business interests.
25 [The witness entered court]
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 4 Procedural Matters
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Good morning, Mr. El-Chammaa. Can you
2 please take the solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 WITNESS: GHALEB AHMAD EL-CHAMMAA
6 [The witness answered through interpreter]
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. El-Chammaa, good morning to you. I just
8 need to get some brief personal details from you. Your name is
9 Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa. You were born in 1945 in Sidon. You are or
10 have been a businessman and you are a Lebanese national. Can you just
11 please confirm those details.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Okay. We welcome you and thank you for
14 coming to Leidschendam in the Netherlands to testify today. Mr. Cameron
15 is going to ask you questions. I'm just going to ask you to bear one
16 thing in mind and that is to, please, if you could, just look at the
17 screen to your left which has a transcript on it, and if you could glance
18 at it as you're giving your answers and just watch for when it stops.
19 When it stops, you should speak. The reason for that is so the court
20 reporter, who's sitting in the corner to my left, can record everything
21 you say.
22 And also can I ask you, please, if someone asks you something in
23 the same language you are speaking in, either English or Arabic, just
24 pause between when you hear the question and when you answer it to allow
25 the interpretation to catch up.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 5 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 So thank you very much for that and Mr. Cameron is now going to
2 ask you about -- ask you what you can tell us.
3 Examination by Mr. Cameron:
4 Q. Good morning, Mr. El-Chammaa.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. I'd like to ask you some general questions about your background
7 and your early relationship with the Prime Minister. I understand that
8 you came from the same neighbourhood originally in Sidon?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you, in fact, went to high school together in the late 1950s?
11 A. In fact, he went to the same university with my brother. I
12 attended another university; however, we were constantly in contact.
13 Q. And you, in fact, left Lebanon to complete your high school
14 education in Cairo; is that correct?
15 A. In fact, when I went to Cairo, I went there to have my high
16 school degree or diploma. After that, I went to Mosul to study civil
17 engineering.
18 Q. And at some point you travelled to Saudi Arabia, and I understand
19 that Mr. Hariri preceded you there and helped arrange your entry visa to
20 Saudi Arabia; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in Saudi Arabia, you and Rafik Hariri began a construction
23 company and you worked together there for four or five years; is that
24 right?
25 A. That is correct.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 6 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. And then at some point your respective business interests took
2 you in different directions and you started to work with your brother,
3 while Rafik Hariri continued to work in his own construction business; is
4 that right?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. And did you maintain a personal relationship with Rafik Hariri
7 during that period, notwithstanding that you were working in separate
8 businesses?
9 A. It has been like two or three years because every one of us was
10 busy developing his own company; however, later on, I can say that I kept
11 a constant and permanent relationship with my friend El-Hariri, and my
12 brother Ghanem was taking care of the daily businesses of our company
13 much more than me.
14 Q. When would you say or estimate that your relationship with
15 Rafik Hariri reached that stage?
16 A. Maybe I would like to review my statement for the dates; is it
17 possible?
18 Q. If you have your statements before you and you would like to use
19 them to refresh your memory and if the Tribunal permits you.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: There seems to be no objection from the
21 Defence, so yes.
22 MR. CAMERON:
23 Q. Please go ahead. I'm not really that concerned about an exact
24 date, Mr. El-Chammaa, just a general period of time. Was it when you
25 were still in Saudi Arabia, for instance?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 7 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That's sufficient for me. And at some point did Rafik Hariri
3 arrange for you to acquire citizenship in Saudi Arabia?
4 A. Yes, that is correct.
5 Q. Is it easy to become a citizen of Saudi Arabia if you were born
6 outside the country?
7 A. It is not easy; however, some people and given their type of
8 activities and connections and contacts, they can have or acquire the
9 Saudi citizenship.
10 Q. At some point you left Saudi Arabia to return to Lebanon; is that
11 right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And when was that?
14 A. I think that happened in 1990.
15 Q. And was that after the conclusion of civil war and the signing of
16 the Taif Accord?
17 A. Yes, around that period, yes.
18 Q. And why was it that you returned to Lebanon?
19 A. Mr. Hariri was interested in too many matters pertaining to
20 improving the situation in Lebanon. He wanted to have someone on whom he
21 can rely and whom he can assign to take care of various matters. I
22 started the establishment of an office that would fulfil these tasks, the
23 tasks that he would ask us to do, and this was preceded by other
24 activities undertaken by many people who were -- who had links to the
25 Hariri Foundation which was a foundation providing services for all
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 8 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Lebanese.
2 Q. When you say "the Hariri Foundation," what was the purpose of
3 that foundation?
4 A. The Hariri Foundation was established upon the request of
5 Mr. Hariri and this foundation provided education to people who wanted to
6 follow their university studies or to continue their university studies.
7 Namely, that it was impossible for Lebanese universities to accommodate
8 all Lebanese students. That's why, based on Hariri's instructions, those
9 students received assistance so that they can continue their university
10 studies or pursue their university studies in various countries of the
11 world. And we gave about 35.000 university scholarships for students
12 registered within this foundation in addition to other types of
13 assistance that were not recorded or registered in our records.
14 Q. And were you one of the --
15 A. In addition to that, Hariri Foundation was also providing
16 assistance to other categories, other than students, namely, people in
17 need and people who sought assistance.
18 Q. Were you instrumental in setting up the Hariri Foundation?
19 A. No. The Hariri Foundation was established prior to my return to
20 Lebanon. That foundation was presided by a person who undertook all
21 these tasks.
22 Q. And what tasks did you undertake then for Rafik Hariri upon your
23 return to Lebanon after 1990?
24 A. The office was a kind of a centre whereby we would implement all
25 the tasks assigned to us by Mr. Hariri, and we were clearly instructed
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 9 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 that any person who would come to us seeking any type of assistance,
2 medical assistance, educational assistance, et cetera, and if the
3 Hariri Foundation was not able to fulfil their request we were able to
4 contact him. In other terms, we were given instructions to be able to
5 fulfil such tasks outside the scope of the Hariri Foundation. In fact,
6 the Hariri Foundation had all its activities recorded, registered in
7 records; however, we in that office were providing assistance that was
8 not recorded, that was kept kind of confidentially.
9 Q. And were the tasks that you're describing largely philanthropic
10 in nature?
11 A. Those types of services were of various nature. In general terms
12 we can describe them as charity activities or assistance. We were
13 providing assistance to students, people who sought medical treatment,
14 people who were in need, people who were known that they needed financial
15 assistance and other types of assistance, any type of activity that would
16 serve the needs of a certain class of people.
17 Q. And were you largely instrumental in setting up this group that
18 you referred to, engaged in charitable works on behalf of the
19 Prime Minister?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did that group later become known in a more formal sense as
22 the Beirut Development Corporation?
23 A. The Beirut Development Association was an association that was
24 established by Hariri when he returned to Lebanon and that association
25 had a certain type of activities to undertake. It had nothing to do with
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 10 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 the office that I was managing. The office I was managing or that I
2 managed gradually after Hariri's return to Beirut, that office turned
3 into a bigger office undertaking a greater scope of activities and it
4 comprised people from the world of media, journalism and people from
5 various functions of various roles. That's why the scope of work of this
6 office was wider and greater.
7 Q. And did Salim Diab come to have anything to do with that larger
8 office in the years to come?
9 A. Salim Diab was in charge of the Beirut Development Association
10 that you mentioned earlier. Salim Diab was in charge of that association
11 and whenever he needed assistance from our office we would provide that
12 assistance to him; however, he was primarily in charge of the Beirut
13 Development Association and he engaged in other types of activities
14 related to other associations and he was also involved in electoral work.
15 Q. Prior to the Prime Minister's return to Lebanon, were you aware
16 of any role that he played in connection with the Taif Accord?
17 A. From the moment work began in order to set up the Taif Agreement,
18 I was and I would accompany Mr. Hariri in most of his trips throughout
19 the stages of that agreement and he was one of the people who mainly
20 drafted that Taif Agreement. And I would accompany him in all of his
21 trips, shuttle trips. He engaged in intensive activities between various
22 capitals in Arab countries, especially he would move between Saudi Arabia
23 and Syria in order to try to draft a final draft of the agreement and
24 obtain the approval of the various parties.
25 Q. Do you know how it was that Rafik Hariri came to undertake that
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 11 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 particular role of shuttling back and forth between countries?
2 A. It was upon the initiate of His Majesty King Fahd Bin-Abdel-Aziz,
3 the late king of Saudi Arabia. He gave -- assigned a task to Prime
4 Minister Hariri because he wanted to put an end to the civil war and the
5 various conflicts that the Lebanese were going through and witnessing.
6 Therefore, Hariri engaged in those activities. And as far as I recall,
7 at the beginning he was carrying out this activity along with
8 Prince Bandar Bin-Abdel-Aziz -- Bandar bin Sultan Bin-Abdel-Aziz.
9 Later on Hariri continued that initiative on his own.
10 Q. Do you know from your conversations with Rafik Hariri during that
11 period why it was that he was chosen by King Fahd to undertake that
12 particular task?
13 A. His Majesty King Fahd had a previous experience with Mr. Hariri
14 in the field of the projects that Hariri was conducting in Saudi Arabia.
15 He was tasked to conduct these projects on behalf of King Fahd and
16 therefore King Fahd trusted him. And the king really appreciated
17 Hariri's activities, his initiative, his motivation, and whenever he
18 wanted to choose a person, an individual, to carry out that task, the
19 task of contacting the various parties, the parties involved in the
20 situation in Lebanon, he chose Hariri because he knew that Prime Minister
21 Hariri had several activities in Lebanon through his foundation. He knew
22 that Hariri had several connections and contacts in Syria. So due to all
23 these reasons he tasked him and entrusted him with his task.
24 Q. As someone who accompanied Rafik Hariri on these shuttle
25 missions, as I think you described them, can you tell the Tribunal who
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 12 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 were the principal people with whom he negotiated or the principal groups
2 with whom he negotiated.
3 A. At the beginning the negotiations were being done with Syria and
4 with various Lebanese political leaders, leaders who belonged to the
5 warring factions, the parties that were not in agreement regarding the
6 future of Lebanon, simply put. At the outset Syria had a certain point
7 of view, a certain perspective, and the Lebanese in their various
8 categories had diverging points of views. So Mr. Hariri was in touch
9 with all of these parties. Later on, after listening to the various
10 points of views of the different parties, a draft was set up, the draft
11 Taif Agreement and with time this draft was somewhat modified in order to
12 obtain the approval of all the parties and that took a lot of effort.
13 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Mr. Cameron, there's a question I'd like to ask
14 the witness before you proceed further. I should probably have
15 interrupted before.
16 But, Mr. El-Chammaa, just to get it clear, what was the overall
17 role of the king of Saudi Arabia himself, King -- why he came to induct
18 Mr. Hariri and ask him to perform these functions which he did? I'd be
19 very grateful if you could answer that for me.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I've already answered
21 that question. Mr. Hariri --
22 JUDGE NOSWORTHY: I'm talking about the role of the king himself,
23 in what capacity was he himself involved?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is common knowledge that
25 His Majesty King Fahd deeply loved the Lebanese and cared for them. He
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 13 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 also wanted to see an agreement, a reconciliation, between all the
2 Lebanese so that they can all live together without problems. And given
3 the fact that the Lebanese were divided, they were at war against each
4 other, he took this initiative because - King Fahd meaning - because he
5 wanted to put an end to the war, to the conflict, and to the destruction
6 that Lebanon had witnessed. He really wanted to make the effort to put
7 an end to this problem.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Judge Braidy has a question, Mr. Cameron,
9 before you go on.
10 Judge Braidy.
11 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Mr. El-Chammaa, I
12 would like to ask you about the Taif Agreement specifically, and
13 particularly the paragraph related to the gradual redeployment of the
14 Syrian army. My question is the following: At the time was that article
15 possible to implement or not? In other words, did the Taif Agreement
16 constitute a real danger for the Syrian presence in Lebanon? In other
17 terms, did that agreement which was patroned by Mr. Hariri, did President
18 Al-Assad, for example, was he feeling upset with that agreement and with
19 what it mentioned regarding the Syrian troops or not?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In reality, that article is the one
21 that required a lot of effort to draft. This is the article that
22 required the shuttle trips, the shuttle missions. It also required
23 intervention from the highest leaders in various countries of the world,
24 especially Arab countries, in order to exercise -- and put pressure to
25 include that article in the agreement. In reality that article was the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 14 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 essence of the Taif Agreement. The essence of the Taif Agreement and its
2 main objective was to put an end to the civil war in Lebanon, to achieve
3 reconciliation between the various Lebanese so that they can build
4 together a state for all and this is why a schedule, a time-line, was set
5 up for the redeployment and ultimate withdrawal of the Syrian troops from
6 Lebanon because the idea was that the Syrian army would interfere in
7 order to put an end to the war and to stop the situation from
8 deteriorating further.
9 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Did that
10 agreement -- was it different from Resolution 1559, meaning that that
11 agreement had an Arab patronage, so it was different from Resolution 1559
12 which was considered to be an international resolution, whereas the
13 agreement at the time did not constitute and was not viewed as a threat
14 and did not affect the situation and the relationship between
15 Prime Minister Hariri and the Syrian leadership; is that true?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. CAMERON:
19 Q. Just to clarify perhaps the question that was asked of you by
20 Judge Nosworthy, is it fair to characterize Rafik Hariri's role as an
21 emissary of King Fahd in order to reach an agreement that would end the
22 civil war in Lebanon?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And to that extent, King Fahd's actions were made manifest
25 through the efforts of Rafik Hariri?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 15 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. And who were the principal people with whom Rafik Hariri dealt
3 during his negotiations with Syria to achieve the Taif Accord?
4 A. Most of the meetings that were held at the time with the Syrian
5 side were held with the Vice-President Abdel-Halim Khaddam and with
6 General Hikmat Chehabi. On some occasions, not many of them, the
7 meetings included President Assad.
8 Q. And on those latter occasions that you described, did you
9 accompany Rafik Hariri to those meetings?
10 A. I used to accompany Mr. Hariri in most of his trips, if not all
11 of them; however, I did not attend the meetings themselves.
12 Q. Why was it that Rafik Hariri chose you to accompany him on these
13 trips which are fairly regarded as important?
14 A. I was one of his closest friends from our early age. We grew up
15 together since we were in high school. Our friendship continued and we
16 were continuously in touch until he was given this task and at the time
17 he wanted someone that he trusted to accompany him. And I can say that
18 we used to discuss our ideas all the time and he was used to and he had
19 the habit that whenever he had an idea he would discuss it with those who
20 were close to him. I'm not saying I was his only close friend, he had
21 others, but he was used to discussing his opinions and ideas with his
22 closest friends and allies. He would take various opinions, and at the
23 end he would make up his mind and make a decision. And therefore, I can
24 say that I was close to him and I had the time to accompany him on his
25 trips. I had the time to be present with him during that period and the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 16 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 period that followed it.
2 Q. How candid was the Prime Minister in discussing issues with you?
3 Was it your impression that he felt comfortable discussing all aspects of
4 an issue with you or did he hold back some aspects for himself? How
5 would you describe your -- the nature of your relationships, the nature
6 of your relationship with Rafik Hariri?
7 A. He never hesitated in discussing most or all of his ideas and
8 topics. He never hesitated in discussing all topics that he considered
9 that I can help him with. Whenever he felt that I could help him in a
10 certain topic or discussion, he never hesitated in discussing it.
11 Q. And at some point the Prime Minister returned to Lebanon, I take
12 it after you had arrived in Lebanon; is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And you described some of the tasks, including charitable works,
15 that you undertook on his behalf after you returned. Did you continue to
16 maintain the same type of personal relationship with Rafik Hariri
17 throughout the 1990s?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in undertaking the tasks that you've described for the
20 Prime Minister, did you receive remuneration from him?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And was that because your business interests continued to sustain
23 you and further remuneration was unnecessary?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And why did you assist Rafik Hariri in the way that you've
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 17 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 described?
2 A. Because the dream that Rafik Hariri had, his dream to help
3 Lebanon and develop it, et cetera, this is a dream that I shared with
4 him.
5 Q. Can you tell the Tribunal what your understanding of the Prime
6 Minister's vision for the country was, beginning perhaps with his return
7 in 1990 to the company -- to the country?
8 A. He was trying to help and provide assistance in addressing the
9 situation in Lebanon and making it right. He was doing his best, making
10 effort, in order to achieve that goal.
11 Q. When you say he wanted to address the situation in Lebanon, what
12 do you mean by that?
13 A. I mean that at the time Lebanon was deeply divided. It was
14 witnessing the consequences of the confessional war, the civil war, and
15 this whole situation was exhausting the country, destruction was
16 everywhere, and therefore he felt that perhaps he could play an essential
17 role in putting an end to that situation and help assist and develop
18 Lebanon gradually.
19 Q. Did you continue to accompany the Prime Minister throughout the
20 1990s in various trips outside the country?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And did those trips include visits to Damascus in Syria?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And were you in a position to have an understanding, either from
25 what you saw or from what you heard from the Prime Minister, about
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 18 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Rafik Hariri's relationship with President Hafez Al-Assad?
2 A. The relationship between the Prime Minister and President Hafez
3 Al-Assad was an acceptable one, and I mean by that that there was some
4 kind of understanding on some of the main issues and it was possible on
5 that basis for Prime Minister Hariri to carry out various tasks and
6 missions to help Lebanon improve its situation.
7 Q. When you and the Prime Minister returned in 1990, can you
8 describe the physical state of the country when you came back? What did
9 Beirut look like, for instance?
10 A. I remember that the first time I went to down-town Beirut, the
11 area that is called nowadays Solidere, meaning the centre of Beirut, the
12 heart of Beirut, there was destruction and devastation everywhere. There
13 were blocks of rubble, of garbage, everywhere. There were stray animals,
14 stray dogs and cats roaming the streets. The situation was really bad
15 and it's really hard to describe. All I can say is it was very bad.
16 Q. And in 1992 Rafik Hariri became the Prime Minister of Lebanon,
17 and did his vision for the country change in any way after he became a
18 political figure in the country ?
19 A. Rafik Hariri is known to be a person who works relentlessly,
20 someone who follows every slight details when it comes to his projects,
21 to his objectives. He started to establish a plan aiming at, first,
22 removing all the rubble, all the effects of the war, et cetera; second,
23 to set up projects in order to improve the infrastructure and services in
24 Lebanon, to set up projects to rebuild Beirut down-town and most
25 important highways and roads in the city, to also set up services,
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 19 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 infrastructure, improve the condition of the services such as water,
2 electricity, et cetera.
3 Q. Throughout the 1990s and from your conversations with the
4 Prime Minister, did you have an understanding about his position in
5 respect of the Syrian presence in Lebanon?
6 A. With time he started to feel that the main article of the
7 Taif Agreement wouldn't be implemented in the near future. And he
8 started to get used to this idea because he did not want any
9 confrontation with the Syrians.
10 Q. And did that attitude change at any point in the years prior to
11 his death?
12 A. In fact, there were two levels of communication between Hariri
13 and the Syrians. When President Hafez Assad was alive and when he had
14 his assistants who had a kind of a normal relationship with Prime
15 Minister Hariri, at that time the situation in Lebanon was not perfect,
16 was not good; however, from Hariri's point of view this is as good as it
17 gets. However, the situation changed after the death of President
18 Hafez Assad.
19 Q. Can you describe how the situation changed and what effect it had
20 on the Prime Minister's views about the Syrian presence in Lebanon?
21 A. From the beginning we had the Syrian presence represented by the
22 Syrian security officials in Lebanon, in addition to some Lebanese who
23 were semi-affiliated to the Syrian position in Lebanon. That is why the
24 Syrian behaviour with Lebanon and with the Lebanese people and the
25 relationship with Lebanon has been since the beginning a relationship
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 20 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 based on domination when it came to many matters or issues in Lebanon.
2 However, it was free of provocation vis-à-vis those who were opposed to
3 the Syrians. However, this type of relationship changed after the death
4 of President Hafez Assad. We saw then a relationship that was more
5 aggressive, more dominant, and of greater provocation.
6 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Mr. El-Chammaa, you said a while
7 ago that Prime Minister Hariri used to think at some period of time that
8 the main article in the Taif Agreement - and I think that you were
9 mentioning the staggered withdrawal of the Syrian troops from
10 Lebanon - this article was not implemented. You said that he was trying
11 to get used to this issue because he did not want to seek any
12 confrontation with the Syrians back then.
13 When, according to you, when did Prime Minister Hariri start to
14 change his opinion and when did he start to think that it was about time
15 to implement the Taif Agreement? Were there any international
16 developments that led Prime Minister Hariri to think that it was about
17 time to start the full implementation of the Taif Agreement and to ask
18 for the withdrawal of the Syrians from Lebanon?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that one year or a little
20 bit longer prior to his assassination and under the regime of
21 President Bashar Al-Assad, Prime Minister Hariri had reached a
22 conclusion. He was convicted that reaching a gradual improvement -- he
23 was convinced that reaching a gradual understanding with Syria to
24 implement the Taif Agreement after he had waited for that for a long
25 period of time, I think that back then he was convinced that there was no
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 21 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 way to implement the Taif Agreement. There is no hope to implement the
2 Taif Agreement, regardless of his efforts to reach this level. Since
3 that moment of time, he started to lose any hope to reach any agreement
4 with the Syrians when it came to this matter and this is when also he
5 started to think about other alternatives, what are the steps he should
6 undertake in order to reach the level that I mentioned earlier, that is,
7 the Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon.
8 However, there is a main turning point that led all the Lebanese,
9 not only Hariri, to change their position, and that turning point was
10 Resolution 1559. That resolution was not a mere Lebanese demand; it was
11 a demand expressed by the international community. In fact, the
12 international community was also convinced that it was about time to
13 implement the Taif Agreement and that the -- it was also about time to
14 end all the pressure exerted on most of the Lebanese factions.
15 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] You mentioned Resolution 1559 that
16 was decided in 2004. Was the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon in the year
17 2000 another turning point, another main turning point that led
18 Prime Minister Hariri to also think that it was about time for the
19 Syrians to withdraw after the Israeli withdrawal?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was his opinion but no
21 one dared back then to discuss this topic. Of course, I'm not denying
22 that it was mentioned in some news articles by some politicians; however,
23 Hariri, he would have wished for the implementation of the Taif Agreement
24 but he didn't think that it was possible to implement it.
25 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Thank you.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 22 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 JUDGE LETTIERI: Which was the legal status of the Syrian troops
2 in Lebanon? Were they a sort of occupation troops or did they have this
3 legal status or their status amounted to this definition? And can you
4 say something about it?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about the legal
6 status, but there was an agreement stipulating that the Syrian troops or
7 the Syrian army would withdraw within a certain time-frame, but this
8 agreement was not implemented. That's why I don't know if their presence
9 in Lebanon was legal or not, even though that there were many important
10 turning points in our history. Some people were asking for that
11 withdrawal but no one was able to compel them to withdraw.
12 MR. CAMERON:
13 Q. You mentioned earlier that the relationship with Syria changed
14 upon the death of President Hafez Al-Assad. Did I understand you
15 correctly?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. Now I'm talking about the Prime Minister's relationship with
18 Syria when I asked that question, and your answer is still the same?
19 A. When President Hafez Assad was still alive, Hariri's contacts
20 with the Syrians were done mainly through Abdel-Halim Khaddam and
21 Hikmat Chehabi. These two people were dealing with him with respect and
22 without any kind of provocation even though they were implementing the
23 orders of President Hafez Assad. This is what I meant.
24 Q. And what changed in that regard with the death of President
25 Hafez Al-Assad?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 23 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. Those who were in charge of any contact with Prime Minister
2 Hariri or, in other terms, we were dealing with other types of people.
3 The deciders or the deal-makers and the ones who were dealing with
4 Prime Minister Hariri were the security agencies.
5 Q. All right. Can you tell us who it was principally that the
6 Prime Minister dealt with in terms of Syrian officials after the death of
7 Hafez Al-Assad?
8 A. He made many visits to meet President Bashar Assad and, in fact,
9 those who represented his desires, implemented his orders, this person
10 was in fact Rustom Ghazaleh.
11 Q. From your conversations with the Prime Minister, are you aware of
12 his understanding as to the relationship between Rustom Ghazaleh and
13 President Bashar Al-Assad?
14 A. Rustom Ghazaleh was given a free hand and total support by
15 President Bashar Assad. He was the main representative of the Syrian
16 regime in Lebanon.
17 Q. And from what you saw, was your understanding consistent with the
18 Prime Minister's about Rustom Ghazaleh's role?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, you mentioned that the Prime Minister made many trips to
21 visit Bashar Al-Assad. And without taking you to the travel log-book,
22 which is entered as Exhibit P346 in these proceedings, if that travel
23 log-book records eight visits in 2003 by Prime Minister Hariri to visit
24 Bashar Al-Assad in Damascus, does that generally accord with your
25 understanding of the number of visits that the Prime Minister made to
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 24 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 speak with President Bashar Al-Assad in 2003?
2 A. Yes. Prime Minister Hariri's visits to Bashar Al-Assad started
3 prior to the death of President Hafez Al-Assad, when he was still sick.
4 While President Hafez Assad was sick, Prime Minister Hariri visited
5 Bashar Assad in his private office and not in the presidential palace
6 where normally visits are reserved to President Bashar Assad.
7 Q. And did you attend those meetings?
8 A. No, I used to go with him or accompany him on the way to his
9 visit, but I did not attend the meetings.
10 Q. How did you get to Damascus? Did you drive from Beirut?
11 A. No. It was Rafik Hariri who was driving the car. I used to sit
12 next to him. Normally when he is going somewhere he would prefer to be
13 driving his own car along with other cars in the convoy, but he used to
14 drive his own car.
15 Q. All right. But you went by car and where did you cross -- what
16 spot did you cross over at the border from Lebanon into Syria?
17 A. We used to cross the border and we took a road, a special route
18 for people who were authorized to cross the border. These permissions or
19 authorizations were granted by the Syrians. So these people were allowed
20 to cross the border without passing by the customs and passport office.
21 We used to take that route and it was called -- commonly known as the
22 military lane.
23 Q. And is there a town nearby at that location where you would
24 cross?
25 A. Inside Lebanon or are you talking about Syria?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 25 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. Inside Lebanon.
2 A. [In English] Inside Lebanon, of course -- [Interpretation] Inside
3 Lebanon, yes, we used to go through an area called Chtoura which was
4 close to the border and later on we would reach the border and after the
5 border we got close to Damascus. The visits were at the beginning and
6 the meetings were with Bashar Al-Assad at his office. It was on a hill
7 that overlooked all of Damascus. And afterwards when he became president
8 we would visit the presidential palace, also on a hill that overlooked
9 all of Damascus.
10 Q. Just going back to Chtoura, please, there was a check-point set
11 by the Syrians at that location, the border between Lebanon and Syria; is
12 that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did the Syrian military intelligence apparatus maintain any
15 kind of presence there as well?
16 A. In most of the cities and areas in Lebanon, there would be a
17 specific office for the Syrian security official. In Chtoura, Chtoura
18 was actually the main office that supervised all of the offices that were
19 spread out all over Lebanon.
20 Q. And in 2003 who was the person responsible for that office, who
21 was the head of that office?
22 A. It was Rustom Ghazaleh.
23 MR. CAMERON: I'm just about to go into a slightly different
24 area, if this is a convenient time for you.
25 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: We're going to take a break, Mr. El-Chammaa,
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 26 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 so the court is adjourned.
2 --- Recess taken at 11.27 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 12.06 p.m.
4 MR. CAMERON:
5 Q. Mr. El-Chammaa, just before the break I had mentioned to you that
6 there were eight visits recorded in the travel log-book, which is in this
7 proceeding Exhibit P346, for the year 2003, indicating that the Prime
8 Minister visited Bashar Al-Assad in Damascus. And I think you mentioned
9 that that accorded with your general recollection; is that fair?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you had described to some extent the tone of meetings held
12 prior to the death of President Hafez Al-Assad between the President and
13 Prime Minister Hariri. Do you recall that?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And I think that you described them as acceptable or am I correct
16 to say they were within the bounds of respectable meetings?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Now, in 2003, did you yourself accompany the Prime Minister to
19 Damascus on one or more occasions, where the purpose was to meet with
20 President Bashar Al-Assad?
21 A. Most of the -- of his trips, if not all of them, I accompanied
22 him on most, if not all, of these trips to Damascus.
23 Q. And based upon your conversations with the Prime Minister, were
24 you aware of any change of tone during the meetings with President
25 Bashar Al-Assad?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 27 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. At the beginning I recall that he would leave the meeting feeling
2 rather okay. However, with time, and as far as I remember, there were at
3 some points incidents where he was not really comfortable with the
4 meeting.
5 Q. When you say "not really comfortable," what kinds of things are
6 you referring to, based upon your discussions with him?
7 A. I cannot recall right now specific examples or incidents. All I
8 was trying to say is that when he visited Damascus, the goal of these
9 visits was to achieve certain things. At the beginning there was an
10 atmosphere of positivity to a certain extent, an atmosphere that was
11 acceptable by the other party. However, with time, there was more
12 pressure regarding the wishes and desires of Prime Minister Hariri in the
13 way he wanted things to go in trying to achieve his vision.
14 Q. When you say "pressure," what do you mean?
15 A. This pressure was sometimes due to certain expressions, certain
16 words that were used by the Syrian president, and later on these were
17 translated in reality into certain actions by the security officials in
18 Lebanon.
19 Q. Can you give us an example of what you're talking about, that
20 words were translated into actions?
21 A. There was a certain method adopted by the security official
22 whereby he would send messages through certain parties, Lebanese parties,
23 who would normally visit that supervisor, that security official. Some
24 of these messages were threatening in nature, some of them would
25 encourage to adopt a certain decision or a certain point of view. So
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 28 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 these messages varied according to the request, their request, whether
2 they wanted him to adopt a certain course of action.
3 Q. You referred to a certain security official. Whom are you
4 referring to?
5 A. At the time that official was Rustom Ghazaleh. He was the first
6 security official and the highest-ranking Syrian security official in
7 Lebanon.
8 Q. And whom did you understand Rustom Ghazaleh reported to?
9 A. He would report directly to President Assad.
10 Q. And how do you know that?
11 A. He acted upon his instructions and sometimes when he asked for a
12 certain thing, when he requested something, he would clearly say that
13 that was the wish of the -- of President Assad, it was something that had
14 been requested by President Assad.
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can you just clarify. You said he reported
16 directly. Mr. Cameron asked you how you knew that he,
17 Mr. Rustom Ghazaleh, reported directly to Assad. That's the question
18 you're being asked.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lebanese politicians in general and
20 all the parties that dealt with the Syrians and non-Syrians knew that
21 very well, it was common knowledge. And I even believe that this was
22 mentioned in several newspapers and news articles. And I was trying to
23 explain that sometimes he would say that President Assad had requested
24 that personally and he would ask for a certain course of action and say
25 that it was and had been requested specifically by President Assad.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 29 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Just so we can get it clear, there's a
2 difference between President Assad directly telling Mr. Ghazaleh or
3 President Assad asking someone else or directing someone else to tell him
4 to do something. How do you know it was President Assad directly telling
5 Mr. Ghazaleh to do something?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you want to have something in
7 concrete terms, if you want a reply in concrete terms, I cannot give you
8 a concrete answer; however, this was the general feeling that many
9 Lebanese had.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: A moment ago you said that:
11 "... sometimes he," meaning Mr. Ghazaleh, "would say that
12 President Assad had requested that personally and he would ask for a
13 certain course of action and say that it was and had been requested
14 specifically by President Assad."
15 That's what you said a moment ago. Did Mr. Ghazaleh himself ever
16 say that to you personally or was it something you heard from other
17 people?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what he said to Prime
19 Minister Hariri more than once.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Was that in your presence or was it
21 something that Mr. Hariri or someone who was present during those
22 meetings told you afterwards?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is what Prime Minister Hariri
24 told me. I never attended any meeting in the presence of
25 Rustom Ghazaleh.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 30 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 I apologize. I used to meet Rustom Ghazaleh in private meetings
2 upon the instructions of Prime Minister Hariri; however, when
3 Prime Minister Hariri used to hold meetings with Rustom Ghazaleh, I did
4 not attend such meetings between the two.
5 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'm sure Mr. Cameron will come to this a bit
6 later, but if you could just tell us now as a preview, in general terms,
7 what was the purpose of your private meetings with Mr. Ghazaleh upon
8 Mr. Hariri's instructions? Just a sentence in general terms, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say more than one sentence so
10 that I could explain the nature of the relationship I had with
11 Rustom Ghazaleh?
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, you're going to come to this
13 later?
14 MR. CAMERON: It seems to be a reasonable time to discuss it now
15 and it's not going to interrupt the flow of my questions. If it's
16 convenient to deal with it now, I'm happy to deal with it, but I'd like
17 to ask one predicate question, if I may.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'm sure you've prepared for the questioning
19 in the order in which you wish to take Mr. El-Chammaa to various topics,
20 so we're in your hands with this one, Mr. Cameron. We were just
21 intervening at the moment for clarification.
22 MR. CAMERON: Thank you. There are many acceptable orders, so
23 we'll try it this way.
24 Q. In those meetings in 2003 between the Prime Minister and
25 Bashar Al-Assad in Damascus, were you aware of any occasion where the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 31 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Prime Minister met not only with Bashar Al-Assad but with others,
2 including Brigadier-General Ghazaleh? Were you aware that such a meeting
3 had taken place?
4 A. Yes, they used to hold such meetings.
5 Q. Would you know whether there was a meeting with Prime Minister
6 Hariri, President Assad, and Rustom Ghazaleh that occurred more than
7 once?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you remember generally when these meetings occurred? Did
10 they occur, for instance, in 2003 or 2004?
11 A. Towards the end of 2003, there was a meeting that was widely
12 publicized or widely known with Bashar Al-Assad and Rustom Ghazaleh.
13 There are some other meetings, I might remember some of them but not all
14 of them. I think that in 2003 there was a meeting that was described as
15 a turning point in terms of the relationship with Hariri, and later on
16 many people knew about this meeting. It was a meeting between
17 Rustom Ghazaleh, Ghazi Kanaan, and Mohammed Khallouf. And during that
18 meeting Bashar Al-Assad sent some requests to Mr. Hariri.
19 Q. Now, I appreciate that others may have known about the meeting
20 afterwards, but I'm only interested at the moment in what you learned
21 about the meeting directly from Prime Minister Hariri. Did you discuss
22 the results of the meeting that you've just referred to with the three
23 Syrian officials and President Bashar Al-Assad with the Prime Minister?
24 A. Yes. The tone was harsh, and I mean by that the words expressed
25 by President Bashar Al-Assad when addressing Prime Minister Hariri. He
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 32 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 told him that he was the one to decide who would be president of the
2 Republic of Lebanon. And he was clearly saying that Hariri is behaving
3 in a way that is contrary to Syria's interests and that he is inciting
4 the Lebanese people against the Syrian presence. He was asked to sell
5 his shares in An-Nahar newspaper, because they consider that An-Nahar
6 newspaper is a forum to incite against Syria. And as you know, he was
7 one of the shareholders in An-Nahar newspaper, even though An-Nahar was
8 chaired by a community of journalists, independent journalists, who in
9 many instances criticized Prime Minister Hariri and his stances.
10 Q. Did you see the Prime Minister shortly after this meeting,
11 whether in Damascus or in Beirut?
12 A. Following that meeting, Prime Minister Hariri was in a very bad
13 mood. He considered that he has been humiliated and that they were
14 imposing on him some matters that are not within the Syrians' realms and
15 that the Syrians should not deal with Prime Minister Hariri in such a
16 way. As I said, he was in a very bad mood, and I asked him when I saw
17 him in this condition, I asked him: "Why are you staying in Lebanon?
18 Why don't you leave Lebanon? And why don't you leave this kind of
19 unacceptable situation?" And I told him that: "You don't have to go
20 through all this."
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron.
22 JUDGE AKOUM: Mr. Cameron, in the transcript page 31 and I think
23 in the line number 12 or 13 mentioned it was a meeting between
24 Rustom Ghazaleh, Ghazi Kanaan, and Mohammed Khallouf. Actually I don't
25 know if the witness means that there was a meeting between Hariri and
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 33 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Bashar Al-Assad and in which Ghazaleh, Kanaan, and Khallouf were
2 attending.
3 Can you please -- or can the witness answer this question: Do
4 you mean that the meeting was only between Ghazaleh, Kanaan, and
5 Khallouf, or it was a meeting between Assad and Hariri and was attended
6 by these three officers?
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And just to add to that --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everyone was present.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you. And I just wanted to ask as
10 well, can you clarify when to your understanding the meeting was held and
11 where?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When, the exact date? I cannot
13 remember the exact date. However, I think that this meeting was held at
14 the presidential palace. And I say "I think" because when I used to
15 accompany Prime Minister Hariri to Damascus, be it me or all the other
16 persons who were accompanying us, we used to stay at the home or
17 residence of Prime Minister Hariri. He used to have a residence in
18 Damascus. So we used to sit there to wait for him while he would go to
19 attend his meetings. And upon his return to his residence we would
20 either return to Beirut immediately, on the spot, or if he had other
21 meetings scheduled with other officials, we would stay and sometimes we
22 would spend the night there and return to Lebanon on the following day.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Let's just go back to this meeting. Did you
24 go with Mr. Hariri to Damascus?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 34 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Was he still the prime minister?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Towards the end of 2003? Yes.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And when in relation to the meeting, that
4 is, how long afterwards, did Mr. Hariri tell you what had happened and
5 where were you when he told you this?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were on our way back to Beirut.
7 We were in the car driving back to Beirut. He looked angry and
8 distressed, taking some time to look back at the situation, and when I
9 saw him in such a mood I usually start to talk to him, to discuss things
10 with him, to calm him down. And as I said earlier, this was not the
11 first time where he would leave such meetings in such a bad mood. When
12 he told me about what happened, I said to him: "Why are you staying in
13 Lebanon? Leave Lebanon. Leave Lebanon to them and travel abroad."
14 Unfortunately, his reply was that he's not only afraid about what will
15 happen to him but what will happen also to those who are close to him.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Who else went with Mr. Hariri and you on
17 that particular trip to Damascus and who was with you when Mr. Hariri
18 told you what had happened in the meeting with Mr. Assad?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember, but I remember
20 that he was driving the car, I was sitting next to him. That's why my
21 guess is that we were the only two persons in the car.
22 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] But, Mr. El-Chammaa, what did he
23 say to you exactly? What happened during that meeting, in that important
24 meeting, so that he looked so distressed?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bashar Al-Assad told him that he
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 35 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 was the one who decides who would be the president of the Republic of
2 Lebanon, no one else would decide. At the same time, they started to
3 accuse him of inciting the press against them, namely, An-Nahar
4 newspaper, given that he had shares in that newspaper. That's why they
5 asked him to sell his shares to other shareholders or to abandon his
6 shares in An-Nahar newspaper.
7 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Judge Braidy has a question for you,
9 Mr. El-Chammaa.
10 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Mr. El-Chammaa, do
11 you remember for how long did this meeting last?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In fact, I cannot remember.
13 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Was it shorter
14 than the previous meetings? Was it a short meeting?
15 And my second question: Were there any particular incidents when
16 Mr. Hariri was -- did any particular incidents happen when Mr. Hariri was
17 leaving that exact meeting?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember whether that
19 time, that instance, was the same time ... once he was visiting or he
20 held a meeting, then he visited Abdel-Halim Khaddam and he had some
21 problems with his blood pressure, he had hypotension, but I don't
22 remember if this is the exact visit or time. As I said earlier, there
23 were many visits and many of the visits he made to President Assad, many
24 of them resulted in such a result; that is, he would leave the meeting in
25 very distressed and in a very bad mood.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 36 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Mr. El-Chammaa, is
2 this the same meeting whereby he asked Prime Minister Hariri to sell his
3 shares in An-Nahar newspaper? Is it different from the visit whereby
4 they asked him to approve the extension of the term of President Lahoud?
5 Were there two meetings?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, when they asked him to endorse
7 the renewal of the president's term, this was a little bit later. At
8 that time the Syrians wanted to convey a very clear message to
9 Prime Minister Hariri. They wanted to make it very clear to him that
10 they were the ones who would decide who would be the president of the
11 republic. Back then, Prime Minister Hariri had started to consider
12 options for the future; that is, what will happen after the term of
13 President Lahoud, who would be the next president, who would be the
14 president that will be chosen by the Lebanese and who will serve
15 Lebanon's interests. This was a topic he discussed with the various
16 political leaders in Lebanon and this topic was also widely discussed in
17 the newspaper and in the press. This meeting is different from the other
18 meeting and it was held long before that.
19 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] And my last
20 question is the following: Was that the first time, as far as you know,
21 when security officials attended the meeting with President Assad? Did
22 that have any particular significance? Was Prime Minister Hariri upset
23 with the presence of these security officials at the meeting?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear from him before that
25 that there were any security officials during the meetings he held with
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 37 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 President Assad. Of course, their presence and what was discussed
2 afterwards and mentioned in the newspapers and discussed by politicians
3 and what he understood from that presence is that that amounted to a
4 warning. It was a warning from or against what he was trying to do which
5 was to reach an agreement between the Lebanese themselves regarding the
6 next president of the republic.
7 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Do you remember why you went with Mr. Hariri
9 to Damascus when he had these two meetings you just referred to, and
10 specifically the one involving being directed to sell his shares in
11 An-Nahar?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was not present with him at the
13 meeting. I accompany him on most of his trips, if not all of them -- I'm
14 not saying all of them. I'm specifying I accompany him on most of his
15 visits to Damascus, and to a certain extent I think I was the only one
16 who would accompany him on most of these visits.
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Well, why Damascus?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only to Damascus, all of his
19 visits and trips abroad. And also on some of his visits to other
20 parties, political parties, inside of Lebanon, for example, visits to the
21 patriarch, visits to the mufti, and visits to certain politicians. I
22 would accompany him to pray at the mosque. I was his companion. I would
23 accompany him all the time.
24 MR. CAMERON:
25 Q. Going back to the meeting that we were dealing with, I think that
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 38 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 you -- your best recollection is that it was the end of 2003, a meeting
2 in which the Prime Minister attended in Damascus with President Assad,
3 Brigadier-General Rustom Ghazaleh, Major-General Ghazi Kanaan, and
4 Brigadier-General Mohammed Khallouf; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, I'm only interested in what you learned directly
7 from the Prime Minister, not what you may have read in the newspapers or
8 heard from others, in respect of the questions I'm now going to ask you.
9 All right.
10 Now, did you speak to the Prime Minister about his understanding
11 of why those three Syrian officials were present during his meeting with
12 President Assad?
13 A. He said that that was a direct threat to him and to -- a threat
14 to what he was trying to do in reaching an agreement with others
15 regarding a presidential candidate in Lebanon. And that was something
16 that the Syrians did not agree with and were not happy with and they said
17 it to him directly. They told him that that was something that they
18 decided, they decided who would be the next president of Lebanon. At the
19 same time, it was clear that the presence of the security officials at
20 that meeting - and I do not recall that he had told me that previously
21 during his previous meetings, he never mentioned that any of them would
22 be present - so on that occasion he said that was additional pressure,
23 that was a threat, to prevent him from achieving his goal in trying to
24 find a suitable candidate for the presidency of Lebanon, a president that
25 would be able to improve the situation in Lebanon which was the request
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 39 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 of most of the Lebanese.
2 Q. Was this the first occasion that you can remember the
3 Prime Minister describing people other than President Assad being present
4 at a meeting of this nature? Was this the first occasion that you recall
5 him describing this to you?
6 A. Yes, that was the first occasion.
7 Q. And what was it about the presence of the three military
8 officials that led the Prime Minister to consider this to be additional
9 pressure or an additional form of threat to his conduct in Lebanon or
10 arising from his conduct in Lebanon?
11 A. The security officials or the military officials - and that was
12 known in Lebanon - they were in charge of the implementation of the
13 Syrian wishes inside Lebanon. That meant that the presence of these
14 individuals and the request made by President Assad and what he asserted
15 that he would choose the next president meant that there was no way of
16 discussing this situation with anyone else, including the officials that
17 usually implemented his wishes and his policies in Lebanon. At the same
18 time, he felt that that was a threat, some kind of a threat.
19 Q. Are you describing a characterization of this as sort of a united
20 front presented to the Prime Minister by Bashar Al-Assad and the three
21 officials?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And do you know if the Prime Minister actually sold his shares in
24 An-Nahar newspaper? Are you aware of that?
25 A. I believe that on the same day when we arrived to Beirut, he
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 40 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 started contacting the owner of the newspaper and told him that he
2 intended to sell his shares and everyone knew that it was being done upon
3 the Syrian request. He had asked him to do this as quickly as possible,
4 and so he was fulfilling the Syrian request that was made to him, that
5 is, to sell his shares as quickly as possible.
6 Q. And did you know how he was to inform Bashar Al-Assad as to
7 whether that had been done or not?
8 A. I don't think that he had to tell him or inform him, but what we
9 heard one way or another - and I believe that this is something that was
10 even reported in the press - I think that they were not happy with the
11 way he let go of his shares in An-Nahar newspaper.
12 Q. Did you have any conversations with the Prime Minister about this
13 issue, this sole issue that I'm describing, or not?
14 A. When he contacted the other than of An-Nahar newspaper and told
15 him about this, and as far as I know and as far as he told me, he said
16 that An-Nahar newspaper was unable to pay the share of Prime Minister
17 Hariri in the newspaper and to buy it. So he tried to facilitate the
18 situation, to facilitate things for them, and said that it would be like
19 a debt that would be paid in several instalments and this is something
20 that the Syrians were not happy about.
21 Q. How do you know that the Syrians weren't happy about that? Did
22 you know from conversations with the Prime Minister?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you recall what he said on that issue?
25 A. I will repeat what he told me. He said that he would sell his
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 41 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 share and he gave the newspaper the opportunity to pay the amount --
2 Q. Mr. El-Chammaa, I understand where you're going, but it wasn't my
3 question. My question is in respect of how you know from the Prime
4 Minister that either President Al-Assad or others were unhappy with the
5 arrangement that he had made to sell his shares. Now, in respect of that
6 question: Did you have a conversation with the Prime Minister about the
7 Syrian displeasure about the arrangement? Not what the arrangement was
8 but about Syrian reaction to the arrangement?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And can you tell us the gist of that conversation, please.
11 A. Yes. He told me that, on the following day, more than one person
12 conveyed Syrian messages or messages from the Syrians that said that they
13 were displeased with that arrangement because they believed that it was a
14 twisted way to implement their wishes and they considered that their wish
15 and their request had not been fully implemented.
16 Q. Okay. I'm going to come to that concept of how messages are
17 exchanged in a little bit, but before I do that, still returning to the
18 meeting in late December where the four, three Syrian officials and
19 President Assad attended, did you know who Major-General Ghazi Kanaan
20 was? Did you have a personal understanding of who he was and his role in
21 military intelligence in Syria?
22 A. Ghazi Kanaan was -- before the death of President Hafez Assad, he
23 was the head of the security office in charge of all of Lebanon. Its
24 headquarters was Chtoura. After the death of Hafez Al-Assad and the
25 accession to presidency of his son, Bashar Al-Assad, I do not know
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 42 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 exactly when that happened but sometime after that he was appointed --
2 Ghazi Kanaan was appointed to a position at the Ministry of Interior, if
3 I remember correctly. And Rustom Ghazaleh was given a higher rank and he
4 was appointed to replace Ghazi Kanaan at the main office in Chtoura, so
5 he became thus in charge of all of the other security offices all over
6 Lebanon.
7 Q. And Brigadier-General Mohammed Khallouf, who did you understand
8 him to be?
9 A. I know that he was a military individual. He was very close to
10 Bashar Al-Assad, but I do not know anything more about him.
11 Q. And still dealing with the meeting in late 2003, did you know
12 from what the Prime Minister told you as to whether it was President
13 Assad speaking to Prime Minister Hariri in front of these three military
14 officials or whether any one of or more of the three military officials
15 also spoke during the course of the meeting?
16 A. Bashar Al-Assad was the one who discussed that topic in the
17 presence of the three officers, and this is what hurt Prime Minister
18 Hariri the most and he considered this to be a humiliation to him and the
19 threat addressed to him in the presence of the three mentioned officers.
20 Q. Did the Prime Minister tell you that any of the officers spoke
21 during the meeting?
22 A. I did not ask Prime Minister Hariri about that. And in this type
23 of situations, I try to limit as much as possible my questions and
24 inquiries regarding these topics in order to try to calm him down and try
25 to calm him down in this kind of situation.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 43 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. Now, you mentioned that the Prime Minister had received messages
2 of the Syrian president's displeasure at the arrangement reached to sell
3 the Prime Minister's shares in An-Nahar newspaper; am I right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you familiar as a result of your position and companionship
6 with the Prime Minister of the various mechanisms by which messages would
7 be exchanged between Syrian officials and Prime Minister Hariri?
8 A. Sometimes the messages were sent directly from the officials, I
9 mean by that the Syrian officials in Lebanon, so it can be a direct
10 communication or a visit in person. And on many other occasions messages
11 would be conveyed through some people who had connections with both, I
12 mean by that Prime Minister Hariri and the security apparatus or those
13 close to Prime Minister Hariri.
14 Q. And was this a two-way street, if I can put it that way? Did
15 messages flow from Syrian officials to the Prime Minister this way and
16 from the Prime Minister to Syrian officials and to President Al-Assad in
17 a similar vein? Was it a mechanism used by all parties?
18 A. I think that this way of communication was used by the Syrians
19 much more than by Prime Minister Hariri; however, in some instances, yes,
20 Prime Minister Hariri resorted to such a mechanism of communication.
21 Q. And I think you had indicated earlier that you had been one of
22 the mechanisms that the Prime Minister used to send messages to
23 Rustom Ghazaleh. Do I understand you correctly?
24 A. Yes. I was one of these people, but there were two types of
25 messages to be sent: Messages that we can qualify as direct messages and
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 44 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 messages that were qualified as indirect messages. I used to visit
2 Rustom Ghazaleh in his office sometimes.
3 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, I'm just looking at the time.
4 Would it be a suitable time now?
5 MR. CAMERON: Of course.
6 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. El-Chammaa, we're going to take a lunch
7 break now, so we'll see you back after lunch. The court is adjourned.
8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.06 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 2.29 p.m.
10 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Please continue, Mr. Cameron.
11 MR. CAMERON: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. El-Chammaa, before the break you had -- we were discussing
13 the methods by which Prime Minister Hariri and Syrian officials would
14 exchange messages back and forth and you had sort of subdivided the
15 universe of messages into direct and indirect messages. What did you
16 mean by that?
17 A. The direct messages were conveyed upon the instructions of one of
18 the two parties directly to the other party to convey a message, a
19 position, a stance, et cetera. As to the indirect messages, this is when
20 one of the two parties would be talking to a third party, discussing
21 matters that they did not ask to convey but they know that the third
22 party will find a way to convey the message to the second party. So they
23 discuss something -- one party would discuss something with the third
24 party, knowing that he will convey it to the second party.
25 Q. Okay. I understand the concept of direct messages, where there
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 45 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 would be a position delivered by Rafik Hariri, either directly or through
2 another person in the form that it was given. Is that essentially what
3 you're saying about the direct messages?
4 A. "Na'am."
5 Q. And were you ever involved in relaying direct messages from
6 Rafik Hariri to Syrian officials?
7 A. I don't think that there were some main matters that I relayed to
8 the Syrians. I used to relay some messages, but I don't remember or
9 recall that they were essential or of great importance.
10 Q. All right. To whom -- leaving aside the content of the messages
11 or their significance, which Syrian officials did you deal with?
12 A. At a certain period of time, I was -- or I used to visit
13 Mr. Abdel-Halim Khaddam based on the instructions of Mr. Rafik Hariri,
14 and on very few occasions I also went to visit Mr. Hikmat Chehabi. Also
15 on a very few occasions I paid a visit or visits to Ghazi Kanaan. And in
16 Lebanon I used to go directly to Mr. Rustom Ghazaleh.
17 Q. Now, were the three gentlemen that you mentioned earlier,
18 Mr. Khaddam, Mr. Chehabi, and Mr. Kanaan, were those messages that you
19 delivered in Syria or in Lebanon?
20 A. Both Mr. Khaddam and Chehabi, I used to visit them in Syria.
21 Mr. Kanaan, I used to visit him when he was still in Lebanon.
22 Q. So at some period of time within Lebanon you relayed messages to
23 Ghazi Kanaan, and was it after Rustom Ghazaleh took his position that you
24 then relayed messages to Rustom Ghazaleh? Is that the way it worked?
25 A. Yes, but it wasn't very often. It was on very few occasions.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 46 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. And were you relaying -- was it your understanding that these
2 messages would be relayed onwards from either Ghazi Kanaan or
3 Rustom Ghazaleh or were they messages for Ghazi Kanaan and
4 Rustom Ghazaleh?
5 A. They were addressed to Rustom Ghazaleh and Ghazi Kanaan.
6 Q. And did the Prime Minister use this direct method of message
7 delivery to cause messages to be delivered to President Bashar Al-Assad?
8 A. To my recollection, the messages were about a certain opinion
9 regarding a certain incident, event, or maybe a clarification of a
10 certain matter. I don't think that essential messages were delivered by
11 me.
12 Q. I understand your answer. To return to the question that I
13 asked, do you know whether the Prime Minister used the kind of mechanism
14 that you've described of direct message transmission to cause messages to
15 be delivered to President Bashar Al-Assad, whether through you or anyone
16 else, do you know whether he used that mechanism?
17 A. Prime Minister Hariri, whenever he had a certain position, a
18 certain opinion, he would be the kind of person that would go directly to
19 the relevant person to discuss this matter with him. The messages that
20 were relayed to the people I mentioned earlier, namely, Rustom Ghazaleh,
21 they were about local issues, events, and that is why they were conveying
22 an opinion, complaining, disagreeing, et cetera. However, when it came
23 to essential matters, important ones, Prime Minister Hariri would
24 normally go and address directly the relevant stakeholder.
25 Q. Leaving aside all the other relevant stakeholders, the only one
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 47 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 I'm asking you about at the moment is President Bashar Al-Assad. Now,
2 I'll ask another time: Are you aware of any circumstances where
3 Prime Minister Hariri caused messages to be delivered, either directly or
4 through his expectation as a result of your conversations with him, to
5 President Bashar Al-Assad? Never mind about anybody else. I'm just
6 interested in that particular person for the moment.
7 A. He did not ask me to relay a direct message to President Assad.
8 Q. Do you know whether he asked anybody else to do that on his
9 behalf?
10 A. When Abdel-Halim Khaddam and Hikmat Chehabi were still holding
11 their official positions, I am sure that back then he was asking them to
12 convey his opinion regarding certain matters.
13 Q. Right. I'm going to return to this in a little while in respect
14 of a meeting between the Prime Minister and Rustom Ghazaleh. So let's
15 just set that aside for a moment and I'm going to deal now with questions
16 in another area --
17 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, before you do I just want to
18 clarify with the witness.
19 Mr. El-Chammaa, you talked about delivering -- that you delivered
20 some messages from Mr. Hariri to Mr. Ghazaleh and Mr. Kanaan. What sort
21 of messages? What was their content? Was it oral? Was it in writing?
22 What did you do?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were oral messages relaying
24 positions vis-à-vis certain events, incidents taking place in Lebanon and
25 requiring either a position from the other party or assistance. This was
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 48 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 all.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Yes, you've already said that but you didn't
3 tell us what they were about. So for example?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Many things were happening in
5 Lebanon, things caused either directly by some Syrians or other
6 pro-Syrian players. I'm not saying that these incidents were very
7 important; however, they can be described as some interference in the
8 scope of work of Hariri or his close allies, interference by some parties
9 or people that can take into account what the Syrians asked of them. I
10 cannot give you more details or more accurate details, but these were
11 recurrent events, incidents, throughout that period of time.
12 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: But do you remember any specific messages
13 you delivered from Mr. Hariri to Mr. Ghazaleh or Mr. Kanaan?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot give you an exact or
15 precise incident.
16 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Is that because you no longer remember?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To some extent.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: And the other extent?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that I do not remember.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What about in the other direction, did you
21 take messages from Mr. Ghazaleh or Mr. Kanaan to Mr. Hariri; and if so,
22 same question: What were those messages about? Were they oral or in
23 writing?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The messages by Mr. Ghazaleh or
25 Mr. Hariri -- so I rephrase, from Mr. Ghazaleh it was either directly by
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 49 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 phone or visiting Mr. Hariri or via some people sent by Rustom Ghazaleh.
2 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Judge Braidy has a question for you.
3 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Mr. El-Chammaa, I
4 will take one particular example and seek some clarification from you.
5 Back to Resolution 1559, did Prime Minister Hariri send either a direct
6 or indirect message to the Syrians regarding his position vis-à-vis this
7 resolution to calm them down, to reassure them? Are you aware of that?
8 And maybe the Prosecutor will tackle this part in his examination. This
9 is an example that I would like to clarify.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am confident that he sent someone
11 to explain to them this resolution, especially that he was accused of
12 sponsoring this resolution. So he wanted to send a clear message that
13 there was no way he sponsored this resolution because he would never work
14 against the interests of Syria. However, I do not remember who relayed
15 this message or who undertook this mission.
16 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] You said earlier
17 that when it came to important topics Prime Minister Hariri used to
18 convey his opinion in person directly. Don't you think that this topic
19 was deemed also important, essential, whereby Prime Minister Hariri would
20 go directly to Minister Moallem or to anyone else to convey his position
21 in person?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before the visit that Moallem made
23 to Minister Hariri, because here let me clarify that Moallem visited
24 Hariri, and Prime Minister Hariri clarified his position vis-à-vis
25 Resolution 1559. And he talked to many people who could relay his
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 50 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 position or opinion to the Syrians. But back then, he used to consider
2 that it was useless to address this matter because they wanted to make
3 him liable for the results or consequences of such a resolution. That's
4 why whenever he was receiving visitors from various factions he used to
5 reiterate his position, but it was to no avail. The Syrians considered
6 that Resolution 1559 was sponsored, made, by the Hariri and others.
7 JUDGE BRAIDY: [Via videolink] [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE AKOUM: Mr. Cameron, before you start.
9 [Interpretation] Among the messages that you were referring to
10 earlier, were you in charge of conveying messages or answers related to
11 the requests that were addressed by Syrian officials regarding the
12 formation of a government, the appointment of employees, regarding
13 elections, were these messages conveyed through you at some point?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 MR. CAMERON:
16 Q. As I promised, I'm going to return to the issue of messages in a
17 little while again. You mentioned earlier on that the meeting in late
18 2003 between Prime Minister Bashar Al-Assad, Rustom Ghazaleh, and the two
19 others represented a sort of a shift in their relationship. Did I get
20 that right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And you were also aware, I take it, of a meeting in the
23 subsequent year that took place between the Prime Minister and
24 President Assad around the time of the -- when the issue of the extension
25 of President Lahoud's term was imminent. I think you referred to that
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 51 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 meeting as well. Did I get that right?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Now, as I understand it, and just to save a little time, you did
4 not inquire of the Prime Minister precisely what had happened in
5 Damascus, in part out of a sense of trying to keep him calm after the
6 event and not pressing him too much. Is that fair to say?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. But independent of that kind of loyalty that you showed him,
9 coupled with restraint, can you give us an idea of how he looked to you
10 following his return from Damascus?
11 A. I remember that period and I remember that he was very -- he lost
12 hope actually of the possibility of communicating and convincing the
13 Syrians of his vision and his views -- what he was trying to do for a
14 period of one year and he was trying to convince them to no avail that he
15 was trying to reach an understanding with them gradually, an
16 understanding by which the Syrians would interfere less in Lebanese
17 affairs and Lebanon would start ruling itself autonomously and start
18 rebuilding itself. Because at the time the country was in a very bad
19 situation. There were interference at all levels, at the security level
20 and other levels, et cetera. Hariri returned from Damascus and he was
21 convinced that there was no point in that, that there was no point in
22 continuing the communications and discussions with the Syrians for the
23 success of his views and his ideas.
24 Q. And do you remember whether this was one of the occasions that
25 you accompanied him to Damascus or did you remain in Beirut?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 52 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. At that time, I did not accompany him.
2 Q. And you described his demeanour in the previous year of the end
3 of 2003 as being very upset, very angry as a result of his meeting. Can
4 you describe his demeanour around this period of time, following his
5 return from Damascus?
6 A. He was -- he felt completely hopeless. It was worse than the
7 previous times. Because on previous occasions and in the previous time,
8 he was asked and he was told clearly that he would not be choosing the
9 next president of Lebanon. However, on that meeting in particular he was
10 asked clearly to extend the term of the president who was president of
11 the republic at that time, and it was done in a way that left him no
12 choice and he had to accept the extension. He was asked along with his
13 supporters to approve the extension and it was done so in a threatening
14 tone.
15 Q. You weren't a political adviser of the Prime Minister, I take it;
16 is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You were his confidant in many other respects and you managed
19 some other aspects of his affairs, but not the political end of things;
20 is that right?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. But did you nevertheless have as a result of your conversations
23 with the Prime Minister an understanding of his positions on some
24 political issues?
25 A. Yes, of course.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 53 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. And prior to the trip to Damascus, did you have an understanding
2 based upon your discussions with the Prime Minister as to whether he
3 supported the extension of President Lahoud or not?
4 A. He did not support the extension and he said it publicly. He
5 said publicly that he was opposed to the extension of President Lahoud's
6 term and he did not wish to vote for the extension, and he was going to
7 Damascus in order to discuss that issue and try to convince the officials
8 there of his opinion.
9 Q. Now, in your long history of having a close personal relationship
10 and a business relationship with the Prime Minister, can you comment as
11 to how easily he was moved from a position he felt firmly about? Was he
12 somebody who took different positions as a matter of course?
13 A. No. However, if we're talking about that particular period of
14 time, I already said that he had been threatened directly, he was under a
15 lot of pressure, and pressure that no one else could have put up with.
16 He was being asked to extend the term. He was also being asked to ask
17 his MPs, his Members of Parliament, to extend the mandate of
18 President Lahoud.
19 Q. I understand. This was a shift in his position from the period
20 before going to Damascus to the period after Damascus. My question now
21 of you is: Was that kind of shift unusual for the Prime Minister? Did
22 he often shift his position on political issues?
23 A. That was unusual. He tried not to get to this point, to this
24 position. He did his best in trying to convince the Syrians that they
25 did not have a real interest in imposing this extension. He tried his
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 54 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 best to convince them by proposing a full co-operation with the Syrians,
2 but all of that was useless and they did insist on that position, they
3 did insist on imposing the extension of President Lahoud's term using
4 offensive expressions and words.
5 Q. And did Rafik Hariri himself describe to you the offensive
6 positions and words that were used?
7 A. They said something of the sort that they would break Lebanon
8 over his head and the head of Walid Jumblatt. Walid Jumblatt who was his
9 ally and he had the same position vis-à-vis the extension, he was opposed
10 to the suspension. And of course there were several other parties who
11 shared the same position.
12 Q. Now, on two occasions Judge Braidy has asked you questions that
13 relate to Resolution 1559, which was occurring close in time to the
14 extension of President Lahoud's term. And did you have discussions with
15 the Prime Minister about his view of Resolution 1559?
16 A. What do you mean exactly "discuss"? In what sense? I'm not sure
17 I completely understood the question.
18 Q. Did the Prime Minister speak to you about Resolution 1559 and
19 what it meant for his capacity to deal with political issues within
20 Lebanon?
21 A. Of course, Resolution 1559 was in favour of Lebanon, was
22 favourable to Lebanon. Those who supported Lebanon's interests were
23 behind it and that resolution aimed at putting an end to direct Syrian
24 interference in Lebanese affairs. And this is what most of the Lebanese
25 were trying to achieve, most patriotic Lebanese, if I may say so. And
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 55 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 this resolution or the accusations that were made by the Syrians against
2 Hariri, Hariri would reply to them by saying that he simply wanted to
3 have friendly and cordial relationship -- relations with the Syrians,
4 relationship based on co-operation but not relationship based on
5 superiors and subordinates.
6 Q. Just before we leave Resolution 1559, it addressed more than just
7 Syrian relations with Lebanon, didn't it?
8 A. Yes. That resolution also stipulated the implementation of --
9 the full implementation of the Taif Agreement, and this is something that
10 most of the Lebanese called for.
11 Q. And specifically, did it not mention the disarming of all
12 remaining militia within Lebanon?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And did you have any discussions with the Prime Minister about
15 whether or not this particular aspect of the resolution posed him any
16 difficulty?
17 A. This resolution was considered and viewed by Hariri as a decision
18 that is in favour of Lebanon and its interest. And it required
19 communication with other parties, other players, inside Lebanon in order
20 to fully implement it.
21 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Do you think that Prime Minister
22 Hariri's position was in harmony and in accordance with the position of
23 the Secretary-General of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,
24 Ambassador Issa, who said during the time when the resolution was
25 adopted, Resolution 1559, who said that there were no longer any militias
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 56 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 in Lebanon. He said that the weapons and arms present at the time were
2 in the hands of a national Lebanese resistance that will continue as long
3 as there is an Israeli occupation of Lebanon and Lebanese territories.
4 Was Prime Minister Hariri's position in accordance with that position?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This position or Prime Minister
6 Hariri's position vis-à-vis Hezbollah's weapons, he would discuss it
7 directly with Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. These discussions went on for a
8 long period of time. He did not consider, I mean Prime Minister Hariri,
9 he did not consider that the presence of arms in the hands of any parties
10 to be something acceptable, except when it comes to the Lebanese security
11 forces. However, at the time Hezbollah was still armed. There was also
12 the arms in the hands of the Syrians -- the pro-Syrian militias.
13 MR. CAMERON:
14 Q. I'm going to come to the -- to questions relating to Mr. Hariri's
15 meetings with Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah in a few minutes.
16 Before I do that, you mentioned that following his return from Damascus
17 in late August of 2004, the Prime Minister seemed disheartened about the
18 possibility of dealing with the Syrian regime in the way that he had
19 hoped; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you mentioned before that from time to time you would give
22 advice to the Prime Minister to maybe get into a different line of work.
23 Was this one of those times?
24 A. Yes, more than once but this was one instance. Yes, because I
25 considered that he reached a point of no return.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 57 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. What did you say to him in this regard and what did he say back
2 to you?
3 A. What he -- what I said earlier, I repeated it, it would be better
4 for him to leave the country, it would be better for him to live safely
5 outside Lebanon.
6 Q. And he said to you?
7 A. He gave me the same answer: He could not leave, he cannot leave.
8 He has to deal with the situation, and in fact he preferred to stay in
9 Lebanon rather than leaving his country.
10 Q. Now, even though you were not his political adviser, you
11 indicated that you did have discussions with him about political issues
12 and he would talk to you. During the period, say, in the first month
13 following the extension of President Lahoud's term, did you have an
14 understanding of how the Prime Minister was considering his political
15 options?
16 A. Back then we were seeing the emergence of forces or people who
17 were publicly opposed to the Syrians. We had more than one gathering
18 comprised of various parties or factions calling for Lebanon's
19 independence, for ending the Syrians' hegemony over Lebanon, and for
20 finally allowing the Lebanese to rule themselves and to rule their
21 country. And the majority of these forces were Christians in addition to
22 some Muslims or representatives of the Muslim community.
23 Q. Do you remember the names of the forces that you're talking
24 about?
25 A. There was a gathering known as the Bristol Gathering, Bristol is
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 58 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 a hotel in Lebanon, where most of the representatives of the opposition,
2 I mean by that opposition to Syria, would meet in this hotel. They were
3 calling for a new Lebanon. There was another gathering known as the
4 Qornet-Chehwan Gathering. Back then many politicians started to support
5 these two gatherings. Patriarch Sfeir was one of the pillars of this
6 movement. Leader Walid Jumblatt was another pillar supporting this
7 opposition movement. As you know, Walid Jumblatt is a Druze and he was
8 opposed to the practices that we were witnessing back then.
9 Q. And in your conversations with the Prime Minister, did you have
10 an understanding in the weeks following the extension of President Lahoud
11 about how he felt about these other groups?
12 A. He was approving them implicitly. He allowed some of his close
13 allies, not all of them, to engage in contacts with these forces. But
14 given he was very optimistic, he used to think that there should be a way
15 for him to succeed in convincing the Syrians of his own position and
16 convictions, that is, that they should leave Lebanon to the Lebanese
17 people so that they can rule themselves. That's why in principle he was
18 supporting all these forces and gatherings and gradually some of his
19 allies, supporters, started to establish contacts with the opposition.
20 Q. Now, you mentioned a feeling of hopelessness that the
21 Prime Minister felt after his return from Damascus in late August. Are
22 you saying that nevertheless he still remained some vestigial optimism
23 that things could turn around with the Syrians?
24 A. It wasn't mere optimism. He was -- he had the real hope that he
25 would be able to change the Syrians' position vis-à-vis Lebanon. He was
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 59 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 optimistic by nature. He was peaceful by nature. That's why he was
2 hoping that he would reach some agreement with the Syrians.
3 Q. And did that change at any time during the fall of 2004, that
4 feeling of optimism?
5 A. With time I don't want to say that the optimism had changed. I
6 would prefer to say that his degree of being hopeful to change the
7 Syrians' position was reduced. He was less hopeful to be able to change
8 the position of the Syrians.
9 Q. How did the Prime Minister respond to the attempted assassination
10 of Marwan Hamade on October the 1st?
11 A. He took it as a message that was sent directly to him and to
12 Jumblatt because Minister Hamade was one of the MPs in the parliamentary
13 bloc of Mr. Walid Jumblatt. He was also very close friend to
14 Mr. Rafik Hariri. So he took this attempt on his life as a message sent
15 to both of them and he saw in it a very harsh message and that led him to
16 change many of his convictions.
17 Q. And did those changes in his convictions include a diminished
18 optimism?
19 A. Of course.
20 Q. And how did Mr. Hariri, Prime Minister Hariri, deal with
21 Mr. Hamade after the attack?
22 A. I remember that I went with Prime Minister Hariri at night to
23 visit Minister Hamade at the hospital. Very few people were allowed to
24 go and visit him. And when he saw him for the first time, he was very
25 emotional, he was deeply affected. And Hamade looked at him and mumbled
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 60 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 some words. He was not able to say any word and we did not stay for a
2 long period of time. So he only went to visit him. And when we left his
3 room, Prime Minister Hariri was deeply affected, very emotional, and he
4 told me that he -- that he would not wish to see Hamade in such a
5 condition. When he saw him his face was burned, his hair was burned, it
6 was really serious and dramatic and he prayed God that he would recover
7 quickly without any consequences. And he was praying, as I said, that he
8 would be able to leave the hospital alive. He was deeply affected,
9 extremely affected. And following this first visit he continued to visit
10 him. He was not only his friend. He used to look at him as if he was
11 his brother and he used to cherish him.
12 Q. Now, out of the natural affection that the Prime Minister held
13 Mr. Hamade in, one would expect that he would visit him frequently after
14 that. Leaving aside that moment -- motive for visiting Mr. Hamade, did
15 the Prime Minister ever discuss with you any other reasons why he was so
16 assiduous in visiting Mr. Hamade?
17 A. First of all, to check on him; and second, as a message to those
18 who perpetrated this crime, to tell them that he's keen on his position,
19 the position of Hamade and their allies.
20 Q. And did you have any discussions with the Prime Minister about
21 whom he understood that message would be received by? Who was it
22 intended for, that message?
23 A. It was intended for the Syrian presence.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Can you just elaborate on what you mean
25 by -- if you could just look at the translation on the screen to your
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 61 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 left, it says: "It was intended for the Syrian presence." That's what
2 it says in English. Maybe you could explain what you meant by that and
3 if that is actually what you meant.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I meant is the following.
5 These visits were considered as a message addressed to the Syrian
6 hegemony over Lebanon. And these visits were also an expression of
7 Prime Minister Hariri's determination to his position vis-à-vis the
8 Syrians' presence and the Syrians' interference.
9 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you.
10 MR. CAMERON:
11 Q. So was this an example of the kind of indirect message
12 transmission through conduct that you were describing before?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I'm still going to return to the concept of messaging later, but
15 I'd like to take this opportunity now to explore a little bit about
16 another topic completely. And you have mentioned that you accompanied
17 the Prime Minister on many, not all, but many trips abroad during your
18 time with him; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And if I were to suggest to you that between September 2004 and
21 February 2005, you went abroad with the Prime Minister on 12 occasions,
22 does that sound about right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you about some of the people with whom the
25 Prime Minister visited when he went abroad. And rather than have you try
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 62 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 and recollect, because it's a long time ago, I'm going to ask you if you
2 remember the Prime Minister meeting with these people. All right. Only
3 tell me if you remember.
4 So if the records are to show that on the 7th and 8th of
5 September, 2004, you and the Prime Minister went to Cairo to attend the
6 fourth meeting of Egyptian Businessmen's Association, do you remember
7 that event?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And do you remember the Prime Minister meeting with the Egyptian
10 Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif and the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And did you know whether the Prime Minister had a relationship
13 with these gentlemen, other heads of state?
14 A. Yes, he had -- he was on good terms with them, they were friends.
15 Q. And then on the 10th to the 14th of September, the Prime Minister
16 received an award from the United Nations in Barcelona. Did you attend
17 that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And one of the attendees as well was the former president of the
20 Soviet Union Mikhail Gorbachev. Did you see the Prime Minister and
21 Mikhail Gorbachev together?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you have a sense as to whether or not they had a cordial
24 personal relationship?
25 A. I do not remember that.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 63 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. Do you know whether or not the Prime Minister had a relationship
2 with the president of Russia during that period, Vladimir Putin?
3 A. Yes, he had a relationship with President Putin and he visited
4 Russia more than once.
5 Q. And on the 14th and 15th of September, you went with the
6 Prime Minister to Madrid for a European tour and you met -- or the
7 Prime Minister met the Spanish Prime Minister Felipe Gonzalez and
8 King Juan Carlos I of Spain. Do you recall that?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And was the Prime Minister on amicable terms with those gentlemen
11 as well?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And on the 15th and 16th of September, 2004, you found yourself
14 in Brussels with the Prime Minister, and among those that he met were the
15 president of the European Commission Jose Manuel Barroso and the Belgian
16 Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt. Do you recall that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And were these similarly friendly relations between the
19 Prime Minister and those gentlemen?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And on the 29th of September, you were in Paris with the
22 Prime Minister and he met the French President Jacques Chirac. Do you
23 recall that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did the Prime Minister speak to you of his relationship with
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 64 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Jacques Chirac?
2 A. Prime Minister Hariri was -- had a friendly relation and very
3 cordial relations with President Jacques Chirac and that friendly
4 relationship went on for a long period of time.
5 Q. And in the 12th to the 15th of December, you were present with
6 the Prime Minister at the Arab Strategy Conference of the United Arab
7 Emirates. Do you remember that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And some of the other attendees there were Sheikh Mohammed bin
10 Rashid Al-Maktoum, prime minister of the United Arab Emirates and the
11 constitutional monarch of Dubai, and former US President Bill Clinton,
12 and former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Do you remember
13 seeing the Prime Minister with those people?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And how did the Prime Minister get along with the Prime Minister
16 of the United Arab Emirates?
17 A. You mean Sheikh Rashid bin Maktoum?
18 Q. I do.
19 A. The relationship was a friendly one. They were good friends.
20 And I remember that on the first time to meet Sheikh Rashid bin Maktoum,
21 I was sitting right next to him and Sheikh Rashid was asking him about
22 his projects and his aspirations for the future of Lebanon. He asked him
23 about what -- about his plans to develop the country and other type of
24 questions. Prime Minister Hariri really liked to discuss these topics in
25 length because these issues were very important to him and he preferred
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 65 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 them to politics. So he explained to him what he intended to do in order
2 to develop Lebanon further and develop the economy and institutions,
3 et cetera. This was the first time that he met Sheikh Rashid bin
4 Maktoum.
5 I recall that on the second occasion when he went to meet with
6 him, and I believe it was maybe one year later or something like that,
7 Sheikh Rashid bin Maktoum told him: "Dear friend, you are thinking about
8 development programmes and projects and we have benefitted a lot from
9 your ideas. We are implementing your ideas in Dubai. And hopefully, God
10 willing, you will be able to implement what you want in Lebanon." This
11 is how close the relationship was between Prime Minister Hariri and
12 Sheikh Rashid bin Maktoum.
13 Q. And were you in a position to observe how close the relationship
14 was between the Prime Minister and former US President Bill Clinton?
15 A. Yes, it was a very close relationship and they knew each other
16 very well. I remember that we went to meet with him in his suite - I do
17 not recall the name of the hotel - but we went to see him in his suite
18 where President Clinton was staying. Yes, they were good friends.
19 Q. And how about former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright?
20 A. It was the same, they knew each other well and they were good
21 friends.
22 Q. And in the 15th and 16th of December, you were with the Prime
23 Minister in Bahrain in connection with the Financial Harbour project and
24 also present were the -- Bahrain's Prime Minister Khalifa bin Salman
25 Al-Khalifa and the Bahraini King Hamad bin Issa Al-Khalifa. Do you
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 66 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 recall that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And were you in a position to observe the Prime Minister's
4 relationships with those two heads of state of Bahrain?
5 A. Yes, they were on good terms, they were friends. And if I may,
6 may I? Just I would like to mention a characteristic, one of the
7 characteristics of the late Prime Minister Hariri. Whenever he met any
8 official and talked with them directly and from the first time, they
9 would become as friends in their way of communicating and talking. This
10 was one of the characteristics of Prime Minister Hariri because he was
11 very open and outgoing. He really loved people and he was honest and
12 straightforward in what he said. That's why you see that whenever he
13 visited a head of state or an official or a leader anywhere, one time
14 would be enough, would be sufficient, for them to become friends and to
15 allow them to communicate freely as if they knew each other for a long
16 time. That was one of the great characteristics of the late
17 Prime Minister.
18 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, the Chamber's just wondering
19 about the relevance of some of this. We of course appreciate the
20 prosecutorial imperative or prerogative to push the envelope, but can you
21 let us know where you're going with this, the relationships between
22 Mr. Hariri and Mr. Clinton, Mr. Putin, Ms. Albright, et cetera?
23 MR. CAMERON: You will recall that when I introduced the various
24 topics that were relevant to the background evidence, one of them was the
25 Prime Minister's emergence on the world stage as a figure of some
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 67 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 importance and the people with whom he had relationships. I've reached
2 the end of my questions in this regard, but that directly what it's
3 relevant to, one of the five topics that I offered to you at the outset.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Thank you. You very neatly summarized it.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. CAMERON:
7 Q. Now, going to a completely different topic now, Mr. El-Chammaa,
8 when you assisted the Prime Minister in Lebanon, did you have an office
9 in Quraitem Palace?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And how often would you see the Prime Minister over the course of
12 each week?
13 A. I would see him on a daily basis from the morning till the
14 evening.
15 Q. And did the Prime Minister ever express concerns to you that he
16 was being listened to by outside parties while he was in Quraitem Palace?
17 A. Yes, yes, he did have this concern.
18 Q. And how did he conduct his communications within Quraitem Palace
19 in light of this belief when -- for instance, when he wanted to have
20 private communications, do you recall what he would do?
21 A. Let's say we were discussing about something inside Lebanon, the
22 safest way to communicate would be to meet the person in person and not
23 to discuss things over the phone.
24 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Did he -- did Mr. Hariri tell you who was
25 listening in to him or why he thought they were listening in to him?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 68 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tapping methods were available to
2 governmental services and security services and these services were
3 closely linked with the Syrian regime.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Right. Could you just go back to my
5 question. Did Mr. Hariri tell you if he was being listened to; and if
6 so, by who and how did he know?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He knew that because sometimes he
8 would discuss certain topics and issues with a certain party, and later
9 on he would know that the content or the gist of that conversation or
10 that phone call was known by outside parties.
11 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: How do you know that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of the times I would be
13 sitting right next to him, but this is something that we often discussed,
14 the two of us. He would tell me and I would tell others and this is
15 something that was currently -- commonly discussed, not only inside the
16 circles of Prime Minister Hariri, it was something that was discussed
17 publicly and openly in Lebanon. It was a topic that was discussed even
18 in the media and in newspapers.
19 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: All right. Could I just go back to your
20 last few answers and try and summarize what you've said and tell me if
21 it's correct. Are you telling the Court that Mr. Hariri told you that he
22 was -- his telephone was being tapped by government security --
23 government services and security services closely linked with the Syrian
24 regime and one of the reasons he knew this was because after having a
25 telephone conversation with someone, someone else would come back and --
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 69 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 someone not connected with the call would come back and tell him what
2 happened in the call. Is that what you're just telling us?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MR. CAMERON:
5 Q. Was it your experience with the Prime Minister that in respect of
6 important matters that he wanted to keep confidential, he would not use
7 the telephone to communicate those matters; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Were there occasions when he did use the telephone to communicate
10 information to people?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And why did he use the telephone in some circumstances and not in
13 others?
14 A. Whenever he wanted to convey a certain message, a certain matter
15 to people who were listening to his phone calls, he used to use this
16 particular way of conveying messages.
17 Q. So is this another example of an alternate method of message
18 delivery, one of the indirect methods you described earlier that the
19 Prime Minister used?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did you ever have any discussion with the Prime Minister as
22 to whether or not he thought that anyone in particular would receive
23 those messages?
24 A. All the topics that were at the hands of the official tapping
25 agencies, they were relayed to the person who is in charge of the
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 70 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 security back then and I meant by that the Syrian official who was in
2 charge of Lebanon's security back then.
3 Q. And the name --
4 JUDGE LETTIERI: Excuse me, can I?
5 Were these suspicions connected to tapping -- to room tappings or
6 to phone tappings?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Phone tapping.
8 JUDGE LETTIERI: He never thought to carry out a remediation
9 aiming at identifying the bugs to solve this problem? Why did he prefer
10 to hold these phone tappings?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Such equipment are -- excuse me,
12 such tappings were done by formal or official agencies and no one can
13 change the situation. This is known to everyone. They had access to all
14 the phone calls.
15 JUDGE AKOUM: [Interpretation] Was this matter raised during one
16 of the parliamentary hearings back then, this phone-tapping matter,
17 wasn't it addressed by the Parliament in one of its sessions?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. In fact, many
19 newspapers addressed this matter. Tapping is widely known in Lebanon.
20 It turned -- it has become one of the fundamentals or constants in our
21 life.
22 MR. CAMERON:
23 Q. All right. I'm going to read back a little bit of transcript so
24 we can gain the context of my question. My original question was:
25 "And did you ever have any discussion with the Prime Minister as
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 71 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 to whether or not he thought that anyone in particular would receive
2 those messages?"
3 And your answer was:
4 "All the topics that were at the hands of the officials tapping
5 agencies, they were relayed to the person who is in charge of the
6 security back then and I meant by that the Syrian official who was in
7 charge of Lebanon's security back then."
8 My question was:
9 "And the name ..."
10 So my question is now: And the name is what?
11 A. Rustom Ghazaleh.
12 Q. Do you know whether the Prime Minister ever taped meetings in
13 Quraitem Palace himself?
14 A. Yes, some meetings were audio recorded.
15 Q. And do you know who did this on his behalf?
16 A. Yes, it was martyr Wissam El-Hassan.
17 MR. CAMERON: Now I'm going to move to a new area now. I don't
18 know whether you wish to deal with it -- make a start or whether you'd
19 like to adjourn for the day.
20 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: What's the title of the new area,
21 Mr. Cameron?
22 MR. CAMERON: Meetings with Hezbollah.
23 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: As interesting as that sounds, I think we'll
24 probably take a break. Can you give us an indication of where we're
25 going in terms of time?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 72 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 MR. CAMERON: I would be reasonably confident that I can finish
2 with my questions of Mr. El-Chammaa well prior to the lunch break
3 tomorrow.
4 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Haynes, will you have any questions of
5 the witness, do you think?
6 MR. HAYNES: Your Honour, no.
7 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: I'm told that Mr. Edwards and Mr. Khalil
8 might have questions. What's your current estimate with reasonable
9 confidence, Mr. Edwards?
10 MR. EDWARDS: Confident this is going to come back and bite me.
11 Between an hour and an hour and a half, I should think.
12 MR. KHALIL: [Interpretation] For our team, our estimate for
13 cross-examination is about one hour and a half to two hours.
14 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
15 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. El-Chammaa, what's your availability on
16 Thursday? We were scheduled to finish your evidence tomorrow, but if we
17 can't finish it tomorrow would you be available on Thursday to stay for
18 an extra day?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If there is a need for me to
20 testify on Thursday, then yes.
21 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Mr. Cameron, can you please start your next
22 topic and we'll just go for a little while with that.
23 MR. CAMERON: Of course.
24 Q. Mr. El-Chammaa, earlier you mentioned that following the
25 extension of President Lahoud there were a series of meetings - I think
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 73 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 you said many meetings - between Rafik Hariri and Secretary-General
2 Hassan Nasrallah of Hezbollah; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you attend any of those meetings with the Prime Minister?
5 A. No.
6 Q. And did you know of them at the time?
7 A. Yes, I knew that such meetings were to be held.
8 Q. And did you have discussions with the Prime Minister in advance
9 of the meetings as to his intended purpose for meeting with the
10 secretary-general?
11 A. Not necessarily prior to every meeting; however, we would discuss
12 together what was the objective of such meetings, what was he aiming for.
13 Hariri used to consider that Hezbollah is a main component of the
14 Lebanese republic or of Lebanon. Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah was in his eyes
15 a person with whom he could communicate, engage in a dialogue in order to
16 reach an agreement regarding a certain way to fulfil his wish, that is,
17 to draw a new future for Lebanon and to build a new future for Lebanon,
18 to find also a new way of dealing with each other in Lebanon.
19 Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah had lost one of his sons who was martyred
20 when he was defending Lebanon and confronting the Israeli enemy.
21 Mr. Hariri considered that Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah is someone who
22 sacrificed his son for the sake of Lebanon's independence. That is why
23 he wanted to engage in a dialogue with him and to reach an agreement with
24 him, an understanding that would enable them to take Lebanon out of this
25 kind of deadlock.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 74 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. Prior to that period, do you know whether the Prime Minister had
2 met for the same sorts of purposes with Secretary-General Nasrallah?
3 A. What do you mean by "prior to that period"?
4 Q. You mentioned that the Prime Minister -- one of the Prime
5 Minister's goals was to achieve some sort of resolution to a deadlock, a
6 deadlock I took you to mean between himself and Hezbollah. Am I right in
7 that?
8 A. That deadlock was between him and the Syrian regime, and given
9 that Hezbollah was or had a coalition with the Syrian regime and given
10 that Hezbollah was a Lebanese political party, that is why he wanted to
11 discuss with him issues that were of interest to Lebanon and the
12 possibility of reaching a certain framework that would enable them to
13 liberate themselves from that deadlock or impasse.
14 Q. What sort of coalition, as you put it, did Hezbollah have with
15 the Syrians to your knowledge?
16 A. I cannot describe in accurate terms the relationship between
17 Hezbollah and Syria; however, what we know from the public realm is that
18 Hezbollah and Syria were together standing in the face of Israel or
19 fighting Israel. And Hezbollah fought Israel and pushed Israel to
20 withdraw from Lebanon.
21 Q. And that occurred in the year 2000. In the years following, was
22 it your understanding that Hezbollah maintained a relationship with
23 Syria?
24 A. This was common knowledge. It was known that there was a close
25 relationship between Hezbollah and Syria.
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 75 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 Q. And in addition to it being common knowledge, was that something
2 that you understood was also the Prime Minister's understanding?
3 A. Yes, of course. Everyone in Lebanon has some kind of
4 relationship with Syria.
5 Q. Well, I gather that Marwan Hamade's relationship with Syria is
6 different than somebody else's relationship with Syria. They have
7 differing relationships; is that fair to say?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So how would you characterize the Prime Minister's understanding
10 of Hezbollah's relationship with Syria?
11 A. As I previously mentioned, Hezbollah -- as I mentioned, Hezbollah
12 had a close relationship with Syria.
13 Q. And that relationship continued in the fall of 2004 and into the
14 first six weeks or so of 2005?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So my question is this: One of the things that was uppermost in
17 the Prime Minister's mind during that period was the resolution of the
18 Syrian issue. Am I right that you describe it like that?
19 A. Yes, this was one of the efforts that he was making.
20 Q. And I think you've earlier described it as an important effort
21 that he was making?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So when the Prime Minister is considering his position in respect
24 of Hezbollah, on the one hand he has his own thoughts about how the
25 Syrian issue might be resolved, but he's speaking to somebody whom you
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 76 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 have just indicated had a close relationship to Syria. Now, a
2 particularly unique problem for the Prime Minister. Did he discuss with
3 you how he intended to approach that problem with Hezbollah, given the
4 nature of the relationship between Hezbollah and Syria?
5 A. As I previously mentioned, Prime Minister Hariri was always
6 trying to find some sort of compromise or a solution with any party
7 whatsoever. With regards to the relationship with Syria, there was an
8 important player in Lebanon, that was Hezbollah. In Prime Minister
9 Hariri's view and opinion, he considered that communicating with
10 Hezbollah and explaining his point of view, which was that Lebanon cannot
11 continue functioning the way it was functioning in the past. He believed
12 that there must be some kind of change and new understandings, new
13 solutions. He considered that Hezbollah was a main player in that
14 equation. He wanted to convince Hezbollah, and particularly Sayyed
15 Hassan Nasrallah, that his intentions, Prime Minister Hariri's
16 intentions, were not to confront Syria and were not to plot against Syria
17 and conspire against it, as it was mentioned in some circles. On the
18 contrary, he wanted to try and preserve good relations between the two
19 countries, between Syria and Lebanon. Also, he wanted to try and
20 preserve Syria's interests. At the time it was often mentioned that the
21 borders between Lebanon and Syria would be a weak point for Syria if it's
22 not fully and completely under Syrian control. That was the belief at
23 the time.
24 So the equation and the situation was very complex. Prime
25 Minister Hariri wanted to assert and ascertain that Syria's interest in
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 77 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 the security side would be preserved. He promised that the Lebanese
2 would safe-guard Syria's security. However, with regards to the other
3 issues, issues that should be under the control of the Lebanese
4 government, he wanted the Lebanese to have a free hand. He wanted the
5 Syrians to leave the Lebanese and let them decide and manage their own
6 internal affairs at all levels, be it at the security level, the
7 constitutional level, and the other levels.
8 So this is what Prime Minister Hariri had on his mind. It was
9 one of his main concerns and it was something that he often discussed
10 with Syrian officials and with Hezbollah. He wanted to try and convince
11 Hezbollah to support him in this course of action, while promising that
12 the issue of Hezbollah's arms is something that would be sorted out
13 between the Lebanese. The Lebanese among themselves would find a
14 solution, a compromise, for that issue. This is something that was often
15 discussed outside Lebanon, even -- and particularly in recent times. It
16 was discussed by the United States, France, and other countries, they
17 were often referring to the issue of Hezbollah's arms.
18 Q. On the issue of the reclamation of Lebanese sovereignty, did part
19 of that involve the redeployment of Syrian armed forces outside the
20 borders of Lebanon in accordance with the Taif Accord?
21 A. What Prime Minister Hariri suggested was the implementation of
22 Resolution 1559 in a staggered manner. The first stage would be
23 discussed with the Syrians and he considered that there is no problem in
24 the Syrian troops staying in the Beqaa area at the beginning. This would
25 be followed by a second stage where a full withdrawal would be
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 78 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 implemented in accordance with Resolution 1559.
2 Q. And was it your understanding based upon your discussions with
3 the Prime Minister that he was having any success with Syria in
4 convincing them even of this staggered removal, first to the Beqaa and
5 then beyond? Was he having any success during that period of time in his
6 discussions with Syria?
7 A. No, no, he did not succeed.
8 Q. And based upon your discussions with the Prime Minister, did he
9 consider the possibility that discussions with Hezbollah would assist in
10 that particular goal or did that not form part of the discussions?
11 A. All the issues that I mentioned were being discussed with
12 Hezbollah.
13 Q. So how did the Prime Minister consider that it would assist in
14 the redeployment, even on a staggered rate, of Syrian troops if he sought
15 Hezbollah's assistance? Do you know how he -- based upon your
16 discussions, do you know how he considered that that would be of
17 assistance to him?
18 A. What I know is that he was trying to do that, he was trying to
19 convince Hezbollah of that approach. I do not know whether Hezbollah was
20 looking at it positively or not. These discussions were shrouded in
21 confidentiality and he did not reach a particular and material solution.
22 He was making a lot of effort, a great deal of effort at the time, but he
23 had not reached a solution yet. He was constantly trying to reach a
24 solution, but he did not reach one yet. And he was trying to adopt a
25 friendly approach, a soft approach, and not a hard-line approach. And
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 79 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 that was his habit, that was what he was accustomed to.
2 Q. So in the vernacular, if he hit a brick wall, he didn't continue,
3 he tried to find another way around; is that fair to say?
4 A. Yes. Yes, that was his approach with the Syrian regime.
5 Q. And having hit that brick wall, he then entered into discussions
6 which he hoped might bring a different result with Hezbollah; is that
7 your understanding based upon your discussions with him?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. But in the end there was no resolution?
10 A. No, no, there was no resolution.
11 Q. Do you know how frequently these meetings were held between the
12 Prime Minister and Secretary-General Nasrallah?
13 A. I do not recall and I was not really following that matter.
14 Q. Do you know where the meetings were held?
15 A. I think that the first meeting took place at the residence of one
16 person who was involved with Prime Minister Hariri and he also had links
17 with Hezbollah, so it was at the residence of that individual. I think
18 that was with regards to the first meeting. It took place in the
19 evening. Subsequently, several meetings took place at the party's
20 headquarters and on some occasions the meetings took place at the
21 residence of that common friend.
22 Q. And where are the Hezbollah party headquarters located?
23 A. In an area south of Beirut. It is called the Beirut southern
24 suburb or Dahyieh.
25 Q. Do you know within Dahyieh where the headquarters is located?
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PUBLIC Official Transcript Witness: Ghaleb Ahmad El-Chammaa –PRH282 (Open Session) Page 80 Examination by Mr. Cameron
1 A. No, I do not know. I believe that very few people actually know
2 that information.
3 Q. Could you have gone there yourself at the time?
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Why not?
6 A. First, I was not directly communicating with them, I was not
7 tasked to communicate directly, and I do not believe that that
8 information was privy to a lot of people. I know that it was a secure
9 place and very, very few people were privy to that information. As far
10 as I'm concerned, I was not tasked to do anything in that regard and I
11 was not following up on that matter.
12 Q. Okay, Mr. El-Chammaa, I believe the Court has indicated that this
13 is when they would like to break today.
14 PRESIDING JUDGE RE: Well, we're bang-on the two-hour mark for a
15 session. Thank you, Mr. Cameron.
16 Thank you, Mr. El-Chammaa.
17 The court is adjourned until tomorrow morning.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.29 p.m. 19
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