Dáil Éireann

DÁIL ÉIREANN

AN ROGHCHOISTE UM OIDEACHAS, BREISOIDEACHAS AGUS ÁRDOI- DEACHAS, TAIGHDE, NUÁLAÍOCHT AGUS EOLAÍOCHT

SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION, FURTHER AND HIGHER EDUCA- TION, RESEARCH, INNOVATION AND SCIENCE

Déardaoin, 12 Samhain 2020

Thursday, 12 November 2020

Tháinig an Roghchoiste le chéile ag 11.30 a.m.

The Select Committee met at 11.30 a.m.

Comhaltaí a bhí i láthair / Members present: Teachtaí Dála / Deputies Niall Collins (Minister of State at the De- partment of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science), Rose Conway-Walsh, Alan Farrell, Norma Foley (Minister for Education), Simon Harris (Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science), Josepha Madigan (Minister of State at the Department of Education), Jim O’Callaghan, Pádraig O’Sullivan, Marc Ó Cathasaigh, Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire, Aodhán Ó Ríordáin.

Teachta / Deputy Paul Kehoe sa Chathaoir / in the Chair. 1 SEFHERIS Estimates for Public Services 2020

Vote 26 - Education and Skills (Further Revised)

Chairman: The Minister and Minister of State as ex officio members of the select committee shall, for the purposes of dealing with the Estimates, be counted for the quorum. The meeting has been convened to consider the Further Revised Estimates for Vote 26 - education and skills and Vote 45 - further and higher education, which have been referred to this committee by Dáil Éireann.

I welcome the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley, the Minister of State at the Department of Education, Deputy Josepha Madigan, and their officials. I congratulate both Ministers. The Minister of State has bee at the committee before but I know this is the first time the Minister has been before us. It takes a little getting used to but we will get through it - the Minister can be reassured of that. There may be issues on which the Minister wishes to get back to members. Perhaps the officials will take note of those and the Minister can revert to the members individually.

Since the Minister and Minister of State are present, the officials should not speak during public session. I call on the Minister to make her opening statement. Members can ask general questions on Vote 26. They will have four minutes each as we are under time constraints. The Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Simon Harris, will attend at 12.30 p.m. I appeal to members to stick to the Estimates when asking questions.

Deputy Alan Farrell: I wish to make a point of order, not to correct the Chairman but to ask if responses to individual queries could be issued to the secretariat as it is committee business.

Chairman: That is perfect.

Minister for Education (Deputy Norma Foley): I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak this morning. As the Chairman outlined, I am accompanied by the Minister of State, Deputy Josepha Madigan, who has responsibility for special education and inclusion, and officials from my Department. I am conscious that I have only five minutes to deliver my opening statement. I will, therefore, give a very brief overview of the Further Revised Estimates for my Department for 2020.

The Further Revised Estimates for 2020 reflect three matters in particular. They provide for the restructuring of Vote 26 to move subheads and related funding to the new Vote for the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. They also include substantial additional funding to meet costs associated with the reopening of schools and sustaining teaching and learning as part of the Covid-19 response. They also include a provision to meet other expenditure pressures on the Vote.

The Revised Estimates for the entirety of Vote 26 were approved by Dáil Éireann on 16 July last. Since then, the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innova- tion and Science has been established and a range of statutory functions transferred to it from what was the Department of Education and Skills. As part of the Revised Estimates process, a 2 12 NOVEMBER 2020 new Vote is being created for the new Department - Vote 45. In simple terms, two of the three programmes which comprised Vote 26, namely, programme B, skills Development, and programme C, higher education, are being transferred out of Vote 26 with a total of €2.332 billion in funds being transferred to the Vote of the new Department. Some functions remain to be transferred to the new Department and, therefore, some funding is being retained in Vote 26 for 2020 pending finalisation of that transfer. These will be reflected in the 2021 allocations.

The Further Revised Estimate for Vote 26 before the committee comprises several elements. The original allocation of €8.237 billion was to meet the various requirements of the Depart- ment in the areas of first level, second level and early years education, including a significant capital allocation of €745 million to support the school building programme. An additional allocation of €331 million, including an additional capital allocation of €180 million, is to support and sustain the reopening of our schools in the face of the Covid-19 pandemic. A net additional allocation of €142 million is to meet additional costs in areas such as payroll, pensions and temporary school accommodation. This additional allocation requirement has been offset somewhat by savings arising from the cancellation of the State examinations in 2020.

A high level of uncertainty remains over the level of funding required for the remainder of 2020 due to unpredictability, as Deputies will appreciate, of the ongoing health crisis and the impacts it has on the running of our schools. Therefore, a prudent approach has been taken in estimating the 2020 additional allocations to ensure sufficient financial supports are available for schools, if required. It is important to note in this context that any unspent contingency funding will be surrendered back to the Exchequer after the year end in the normal manner as part of the annual Estimates process.

These Estimates were drawn up in late 2019 as part of the 2020 budget process. Much has changed since then. A significant proportion of remaining Vote 26 funds are expended on gross pay and pensions, with sums of almost €6.6 billion included in the Vote for these purposes. This represented some 81% of the expenditure allocation. Some 89,000 public servants and 42,000 public servant pensioners are paid out of these funds. Other significant expenditure areas include capital infrastructure, grants to State agencies, school transport and capitation grants to schools. The additional allocation in 2020 was aimed at delivering a range of measures in the education system that I outlined as part of the approval of the original 2020 Revised Estimates in July. Given the time constraints, I do not propose to go through the specific measures. I will, however, address the issue of Covid-19.

We are all well aware of the impact that Covid has had on our schools, especially students. To say it has been a challenging time for all concerned would be an understatement. I express again my gratitude to all involved in ensuring the safe and sustained reopening of our schools. As members will be aware, the Government in late July approved a funding package of €437 million as part of the roadmap for the full reopening of schools. Funding was made available to sustain school reopening and for the replacement of teachers and non-teaching staff unable to attend work due to Covid-19, additional release days for principals and deputy principals and enhanced cleaning regimes and personal protective equipment, PPE, in the current school year. Funding was also included for the continuation of additional educational psychological services to provide for well-being supports for students and additional Covid-19 supports for the transport of pupils in the school transport scheme.

Some €211 million of the package is included in the 2020 Estimates, with the balance being included in the 2021 Estimates, as announced on budget day. Members will recall that it was necessary to implement current public health recommendations for reduced capacity on school 3 SEFHERIS transport for post-primary students. These recommendations have led to further additional costs, and an allocation of €15 million is now included in 2020 for this purpose.

I am particularly pleased that a significant additional capital allocation was provided for as part of the Covid response. A €75 million allocation was provided for as part of the July stimu- lus package to assist with the reopening of schools. It is part of the initial financial supports included in the roadmap for the full reopening of schools. An additional €105 million of capital has now been allocated. This €105 million in additional funding consists of €80 million in capital funding announced in budget 2021 as an additional allocation for expenditure in 2020, and now a further €25 million has been allocated for 2020 to provide further financial assistance in sustaining the operation of post-primary schools.

This additional €105 million will facilitate the bringing forward of the ICT grant and minor works grant to primary schools, planned for 2021, and the delivery of projects. It will also allow for an exceptional minor works grant payment to post-primary schools.

Early payment of the ICT grant is particularly important in the context of supporting schools during the Covid-19 pandemic. The €50 million in funding can be prioritised to ensure all schools are in a position to support remote learning should it be necessary for a class or group to isolate for a limited period.

The minor works grant funding of €30 million allocated for primary schools and an exceptional minor works grant payment of €25 million for post-primary schools provides good flexibility at local level to assist schools managing in the Covid environment and to put more sustainable arrangements in place. The payment of the grants at this stage gives schools a good lead-in period to plan and undertake works that support the operation of the school in the current school year and assist in catering for requirements going into the 2021-22 school year. The minor works grant will be paid automatically to schools in the free scheme and on an applica- tion basis to fee-charging schools on a case-by-case basis.

I trust that this overview is of assistance to the committee. I am happy to discuss these issues in more detail, and I commend the further Revised Estimate to the committee.

Deputy Alan Farrell: I thank the Minister and Minister of State for attending. I am not sure Ministers would be happy giving up part of their budgets under normal circumstances but, under the current circumstances, we probably welcome it.

I have a couple of queries on additional budgets, particularly in respect of the Minister’s reference to additional release days for principals and deputy principals, among others. One concern that has been expressed to me on numerous occasions relates to the amount of support available to principals in the current circumstances, particularly with enhanced cleaning arrangements and the amount of time that must be spent in this regard as opposed to the day- to-day running of their schools. While the release days are welcome, of course, there are not enough hours in the day. I wonder about the merit of additional posts of responsibility, perhaps even on a short-term basis. Might the Minister have a comment on that? My point also applies to teaching principals, although they are limited in number. This might also be worthy of comment, however.

I have a query on the capital budget for this year. I appreciate entirely that fair portions of the capital plans being implemented around the country have been affected significantly by Covid but I wonder whether the committee could be made aware of the budgetary allocation

4 12 NOVEMBER 2020 versus that which will not be spent in the current year and the projections for the completion of projects. That is probably quite a broad discussion that we could and should have at a meeting of this committee but if the Minister had any comments on it now, they would be helpful.

My final query is on special education. I obviously welcome the new model for the allocation of special needs assistants, SNAs, in particular, and resource hours. Has any formal study been completed in the Department on the number of hours lost to students with additional needs? Are there plans within the Department to address this in some form, be it in the current academic year or as part of a rolling plan for additional supports for the affected students?

Deputy Norma Foley: On the capital projects, almost €800 million is available. We en- visage the delivery of more than 200 schools building projects of various sizes before the end of 2021. Some 145 projects are to begin mid-year, around July. That involves a substantial investment in the programme.

Regarding the allocation of the additional days to principals and teaching principals, the news has been received very positively within the schools. It is very much welcomed and a very necessary support. Regarding other supports, we will obviously keep everything under review as we proceed.

The Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, will refer to special education.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan): Re- garding SNAs, the Deputy will be aware that on the reopening of the schools, we put in place €14.7 million. This was to facilitate the reappointment of an SNA where there was an absence. We are aware that the role of an SNA is critical in every school if children with special needs are to function in the school environment. It was vital that we ensured immediate replacement of SNAs. The funding also applies to cleaners, secretaries and caretakers but SNAs do play a pivotal role. We have been very conscious in the Department that we have increased the number of SNAs incrementally over the years. Since 2011, there has been a 78% increase, which goes to show our recognition of SNAs. We have also provided a new SNA training programme, which has just been launched in UCD.

With regard to a formal study, the Department continually looks at its data. One of the dif- ficulties regarding SNAs is that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has told us consistently that it will not be possible in the future just to use the SNA model-----

Chairman: I must cut the Minister of State off. Perhaps she will reply directly to the committee in writing.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: I thank the Minister and Minister of State. I acknowledge that there were good points in the budget, particularly on special education. However, as I have only four minutes, I will focus on some of the areas about which I have concerns, two in particular.

The first area concerns capitation. I am aware that there was an increase but it primarily related to the allocation at the start of the year to get schools open. I am speaking to representatives of many schools who are very worried about their financial position, for several reasons. First, the refuse costs of some schools have increased by a four-figure sum. Second, given the desire to have some sort of ventilation, the schools’ heating costs are going through the roof. Third, schools are very reliant financially on the voluntary organisations, community organisations, music teachers and so who hire rooms in their buildings. This income has collapsed. 5 SEFHERIS Many schools are very worried about what their financial position will be at the end of the year. If there has not been a need for further capitation increases in this school year, there will be. I want the Minister to respond to that.

On a related matter, I saw the tweet of the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, yesterday. I welcome it but it is not acceptable that, according to Fórsa, one in five SNAs is not being provided with medical-grade face masks. If there is an issue with funding or any other such matter, will it be resolved? Can we ensure that all SNAs will have access to medical-grade face masks? SNAs cannot social-distance so medical-grade face masks are essential.

The pupil-teacher ratio was reduced. It was reduced in urban senior schools in band 1 of Delivering Equality of Opportunity in Schools, DEIS. This meant that the majority of band 1 DEIS schools did not benefit. Whether that was an oversight or a deliberate decision, it is unac- ceptable and must be reversed. I am aware of one DEIS school in Cork city, although not in my constituency, where, because of a combination of a suppressed post due to falling numbers and the failure to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio, the school has had to combine two classes and there are now well over 30 in that class. That is not acceptable. Some of the most disadvantaged schools and children in the State missed out on the reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio and I call on the Minister to reverse that.

Deputy Norma Foley: I thank the Deputy. With regard to the provisions that have been made available to schools this year, we are talking of a package in excess of €437 million, which supports four to six hours of daily additional cleaning within the schools and the purchase of PPE and hand sanitisers. All of that is covered in the allocation and, indeed, there is a balance of €226 million which will be paid to the schools for the remainder of the academic year, from January next to June.

The Deputy raised the issue of urban band 1 DEIS schools. With regard to the general pupil-teacher ratio, it has been universally welcomed that there has been a reduction of one point from 26:1 to 25:1 and, equally, there has been a reduction of three points in the enrolment requirement for the retention of a teacher. A very benign attitude was taken this year in particular, given the situation with Covid, in terms of those schools that are in a position to hold onto a teacher this year where they might have fallen short of the number of pupils, and the greatest flexibility possible was applied. The Deputy is correct that for urban band 1 DEIS schools, the reduction was from 24:1 to 23:1. There is, of course, the other provision in the junior aspect, where there is a ratio of 20:1 and it is 22:1 ratio in the vertical schools.

There is a package of DEIS supports. I am currently reviewing this and consideration is being given to a wide variety of supports and aspects of that package that can be introduced.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: I welcome that and I hope it extends to the pupil- teacher ratio.

Deputy Josepha Madigan: I am aware of the Fórsa campaign in regard to the wearing of PPE. With the reopening of schools, we have provided €30 million for PPE. The Health Pro- tection Surveillance Centre, HSPC, advice is very clear in regard to the wearing of face masks for SNAs. What it says is that, in the general course of events, a normal face mask will suffice, unless they are performing a task relating to intimate needs, for example, washing a child. In that case, they should be provided with medical grade face masks. In every other circumstance, we follow the public health advice. It is very clear in the guidelines that were sent to all schools on 9 October that, other than for performing intimate needs, a normal face mask is sufficient.

6 12 NOVEMBER 2020 That is what the public health advice says very clearly. I would add that all schools have access to centrally procured PPE suppliers.

Chairman: I call Deputy Ó Cathasaigh.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I have quarrelled with Deputy Ó Laoghaire before as he always goes before me in committees and asks all the questions I was about to ask. I particularly want to go back to the issue of the DEIS schools. The pupil-teacher ratio needs to be followed through and those schools should see the benefit as well.

The point is very well made about the fact there will be no parents association fundraisers this year and those are very often the events that buy the sports equipment. Therefore, provision will have to be made for that shortfall. With regard to the provision of SNA equipment, it is profoundly difficult for SNAs to socially distance, as I know well from my experience in the classroom.

Deputy Farrell referred to capital spend. We have to assume that less of that is going to be spent this year under level 5 restrictions. Do we have a figure for that? Do we know if the Department is going to surrender some of that very welcome capital allocation?

While I welcome the increase in the school transport spend, is it sufficient? I understand the restrictions that had to be imposed on school transport in order to reduce transmission. Are we confident that, with the increased funding allocation, we are getting to the point where we can provide school transport to those students who need it?

I assume the expanded staffing arrangements that were announced under budget 2021 are not included in these Estimates but will be going ahead.

My final point concerns ASD provision. In the current Covid crisis, we are very fixed on the money that needs to be spent in the very short term but we need to see significant investment in the provision of places for students with ASD. Is there any plan to expand that allocation?

Deputy Norma Foley: I thank the Deputy. In terms of the allocation for school transport, and acknowledging the capacity requirement that now exists, there was an agreement following a memo that was brought to Cabinet. I want to acknowledge the generosity in recognising the need to meet that public health demand and, all along the way, where there have been changes, we have been very flexible in a desire to implement everything we are asked to do. There is an excess of €100 million being made available to ensure we can meet the capacity that is required from the school transport point of view.

With regard to the capital spend, I reiterate that we are very confident we are on target for the 200 builds to be completed by the end of 2021 and also, significantly, the 145 projects that will begin midstream. That is just short of €800 million and we are very confident we have the desire and the capacity to deliver on that because it is very important.

I recognise the circumstances in which schools find themselves. Every step along the way, there has been no difficulty in terms of funding going into the schools, which is universally acknowledged. Some €437 million is being provided, one of the biggest single allocations to schools, so funding is not an issue currently in regard to the provision for the needs within the school.

Deputy Josepha Madigan: The Deputy is correct that ASD units are extremely important.

7 SEFHERIS Within the school building programme, there is obviously scope to provide special educational needs, SEN, classes, which we do. It is worth noting that, in 2011, there were only 548 special classes whereas, for the year 2019-20, there are a total of 1,618 special classes.

I am aware of the fact autism in particular is growing in prevalence, not just in Ireland but internationally. It is something we are looking at. I know the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, has a forecasting model and a five-year plan so we can ensure every child who has special needs will obtain access to a class. As the Minister indicated, there are approximately 200 school building projects which will deliver some 116 new SEN rooms across the country. It is an issue we are extremely aware of. There are many different reasons for the increase in autism, which we can talk about at another time. Suffice to say, the building unit has confirmed to me that every new school built in the future will automatically provide those SEN units, which will alleviate the need to look for places in the future. We will try to work in a collaborative way to ensure existing schools can open up classes and, if not, we will look to opening up new schools or to expanding the existing schools.

Deputy Pádraig O’Sullivan: I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State. I acknowledge the unprecedented situation in which they have found themselves in the early months of their tenure and I acknowledge the great work that has been done. I was the deputy chairman of the education and training board, ETB, in Cork for five years and still keep in touch with a number of principals. To be fair, it is universally acknowledged that great efforts have been made to keep our schools open. I was just reading the international news this morning and the number of countries across the world that have been forced to close schools in the past couple of weeks is massive. I commend the Minister and Minister of State on the job they and the Department have done up to now. I welcome again the comments on the capital funding budget where there has been a massive increase of almost 12%. There are a number of schools in my locality, which is a growing suburban area, where there is a lot of house building. The fact that increased budget is there is extremely welcome for areas such as Carrignavar to the north of Cork, which will hopefully benefit from that in the future. I think the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, was on a call yesterday with a number of principals in Cork on the provision for special needs education. I want to flag that Cork is lagging behind. I welcome her comments about the building of ASD units being mandatory. That is a welcome position to take because Cork has one of the greatest deficits in terms of provision for that sector.

Previous speakers touched on school transport. I plagued Ministers over the summer months on this issue. While I welcome that additional funding, which is due primarily to Covid, going forward a review must take place. Previous Ministers have given that commitment but, unfortunately, they were not in a position to follow that through as they are no longer here but I hope and urge that the review take place. School transport is not fit for purpose and many rural areas in particular suffer because of that. I urge that this be taken into consideration. I wanted to make those two points and welcome any comments.

Deputy Norma Foley: I know school transport is a particularly significant issue in the Deputy’s area and he has raised it on a number of occasions. I know that an additional €15 million is being provided just for the increasing number of children within the system anyway . As I said previously, almost €100 million has been made available in respect of the additional 50% capacity.

The Deputy is correct that there is a need for a review and work is ongoing presently to finalise its terms of reference.

8 12 NOVEMBER 2020 Deputy Josepha Madigan: A number of meetings between the Department, the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, Cork management and the Cope Foundation, which is the patron of Scoil Aislinn, a special school located on Boreenmanna Road, Ballintemple, Cork, have taken place to explore the expansion of Scoil Aislinn. The Deputy may be aware of that. That goes back to my point about working with existing schools and other options to facilitate the enrolment of children who are currently without a school placement. A number of building projects are being re-examined in Cork to see if they have any potential capacity. The process, ultimately, is ongoing and includes an engagement with local patrons and the ETB. The board of the Cope Foundation has committed to also engage on longer-term options as well, as required. It is supportive of taking on the position of patron for the development of a new special school if that is required. I am aware of the issues in Cork and I am looking at them closely.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh: Most of my questions have been asked. The Minister may recall that prior to 29 September, I raised the question of the outcome of the arbitration process that had recommended a cumulative pay increase of 10% between 2016 and 2019 for staff and that a minimum hourly rate of €13 be phased in over that period. That arbitration agreement was a step forward for paid secretaries and caretakers. Given, however, that the funding to implement the terms of the arbitration agreement was available to schools during the period of the agreement, which concluded on 31 December 2019, does that mean schools have lost the funding for ongoing support for secretaries, cleaners and caretakers? They are telling me they have, although they may be gaining some funding in other areas. Could the Minister clarify that?

Chairman: Some of the Deputy’s questions are outside the scope of the committee. I do not expect the Minister to know everything about this but I will ask her to comment.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh: If the Minister could even write back to me to clarify this, that would be okay as well. I accept she may not have that information with her. I welcome that she has said on the record that funding is not an issue within schools. We look forward to working with her and seeing how that pans out, particularly with ASD, transport and many of the other issues. I will leave it at that.

Deputy Norma Foley: At every step of the way we were conscious of the measures that had to be put in place and, indeed, will continue to have to be put in place in respect of Co- vid-19. At no stage have we been reluctant when it comes to finances. Specifically on the issue the Deputy raised, I will ask for clarification on that and will ask the officials to directly reply to her on it.

Chairman: Deputy Ó Ríordáin is up next.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: I thank the Chairman. I would like to have been put closer to teacher’s desk for behaviour.

Deputy Josepha Madigan: She is the principal, I am just the assistant.

Senator Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: I thank the Minister and Minister of State for their attendance. I will go through a few issues and get their comments on them.

The issue of two-tier pay and pay equality is coming up regularly within schools and the Minister may wish to make reference to that.

The Minister of State referred to medical-grade face coverings for SNAs but while schools

9 SEFHERIS are trying to power their way through this pandemic, any sort of tension within the system needs to be resolved, and I am wondering whether a further comment could be made on that.

On the pupil-teacher ratio, PTR, decrease being immediately transferable to DEIS schools, I appreciate the Minister said this was debatable, that she was alive to the issue and wants to resolve it but is it not the case that any PTR decrease should automatically be transferred to these schools? Is that not desirable for the future? It should not depend on a fund or how well- meaning the Minister is.

If we were to go back into a crisis lockdown, which none of us wants but which none of us can predict, what is the capacity of the system to respond to that in terms of remote learning and the digital divide? Some principals I have been talking to said that 60% of their students are working off smartphones. Does the Minister feel we are in a position if we were to go back into lockdown to respond to that?

I am happy with the Minister of State’s comments on school places for children with autism because there has been an issue in my constituency of parents applying to between 14 and 17 different schools to get a place for their child. She may wish to elaborate on that issue as well because it is quite a big one in the area I represent. She briefly mentioned the potential for further debate on the issue of autism and how we can deal with it into the future and, therefore, I would appreciate further comment on that.

Deputy Norma Foley: On the issue of pay equality, I want to reaffirm the Government’s commitment to the body of work that needs to be done to address these outstanding matters. There is a commitment on that and it will be part of the next round of pay talks.

On DEIS, this is an area of particular interest to the Deputy, which I acknowledge. As he has correctly acknowledged, there has been a reduction from 24:1 to 23:1 in urban DEIS band 1. Across all the DEIS bands, there is a reduced pupil-teacher ratio as it stands. I hear what he is saying in terms of, say, the junior cycle, where the pupil-teacher ratio is between 20:1 and 22:1 in the vertical schools. I reiterate that there is a package there. I want it to be the best package that will direct measures to where they should go. That is part of my consideration of a further reduction in the pupil-teacher ratio, the details of which will be announced imminently. On remote learning, I note that almost €210 million has been set aside for ICT in schools from 2015 to 2020. More than €110 million of that has already been paid and the budget has allocated €50 million for the provision of additional resources between now and the end of Decem- ber. I acknowledge the Deputy’s point that it is not acceptable for children to be working off smartphones. However, that provision is to enable schools to purchase devices to give or lend to their students. I am committed to ensuring this will be delivered to enable equality of access to all children.

Deputy Josepha Madigan: I thank Deputy Ó Ríordáin. To reiterate what I said to Deputy Ó Laoghaire, the advice of the Health Protection Surveillance Centre on the wearing of masks by special needs assistants was issued to schools on 9 October. It states that if an SNA is within 2 m of a child and meeting intimate needs such as washing the child, the face covering used should be a surgical mask. If a surgical mask is not practical, the SNA should use a visor suit- able to a healthcare setting. The advice is very clear. As I said earlier, our advice to SNAs on face coverings follows the public health advice. Medical grade surgical face masks are only required where an SNA is meeting intimate needs, although Fórsa may be of a different view.

Newly built schools will include autism spectrum disorder units where they are needed. I

10 12 NOVEMBER 2020 am not 100% sure of the situation in the Deputy’s constituency, but he may be aware of the process we have triggered under section 37A of the Education Act 1998, as amended by the Education (Admission to Schools) Act 2018. I will avail of that legislation where schools are not forthcoming in providing special classes. I want to eradicate this problem.

Deputy Jim O’Callaghan: I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for coming in. I commend them on ensuring that schools were reopened at the end of August and were kept open despite the country moving to a higher level of restrictions. As the case numbers come down, we are getting further proof that keeping schools open is not dangerous and is consistent with a safe public health policy.

My first question is directed to the Minister. Is she concerned about the damage done to children by losing three to four months of schooling earlier in the year? Is that part of the mo- tivation for wanting to keep schools open?

Deputy Norma Foley: Absolutely. There is incontrovertible evidence that students have been disadvantaged, obviously from an academic point of view but even more so from a socialisation point of view. All of the Irish and international studies are telling us that students are best served within the education environment. I agree with the Deputy’s remark. The Government has recognised this by putting financial resources in place. There has been a huge body of work on the part of schools to ensure they can remain safely open. I acknowledge that effort and the support that has come from parents and wider society. It is very important that we have reas- serted that commitment and kept schools open under level 5 restrictions. Again, this is largely possible due to the terrific work that is being done on the ground.

Deputy Jim O’Callaghan: When the level 5 restrictions are lifted at the end of this month if the case numbers have declined, as we all hope they will, the Minister should make a statement emphasising that this shows we can keep schools open and operate safely while the dis- ease is with us.

I would also like to ask the Minister of State about ASD classrooms. I thank her for the work she has done in the area along with the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Anne Rabbitte. Part of the constituency I represent has a very low incidence of ASD classrooms. This is unusual by comparison with the rest of the city. In light of recent announcements, is the Minister of State confident that there will be more ASD classrooms in the Dublin 2 and Dublin 4 areas?

Deputy Josepha Madigan: Yes. Last June, the previous Minister for Education and Skills wrote to 39 different schools under section 37A of the Education Act 1998. We sent a second notice on 5 November. Not all of the schools are forthcoming. There are genuine spatial reasons that some cannot facilitate extra classes. The majority, between 20 and 25 of them, can facilitate special classes. We want to collaborate with these schools rather than forcing them, but that process exists in case we have to mandate them to act. If I can add to the Minister’s comments on the regression of students, that was a particular concern for me where children with special needs are concerned. The July provision was so important because it helped students to acclimatise to their school environment. All of those report cards were brought back in September. We want to ensure our children receive a continuity of education. A designated teacher will help where remote learning is necessary.

Deputy Jim O’Callaghan: If some of the schools do not have resources to bring ASD classrooms up to scratch and make them available, will the Department assist them?

11 SEFHERIS Deputy Josepha Madigan: A considerable amount of funding has been allocated to ensuring that we have enough ASD units. To me, resourcing is not the biggest concern. We will always be able to find the resources for this. The predictive model will be crucial in preventing a perennial dearth of places in special classes. Most of the Deputies here are parents. We know how difficult it is to look after children in the normal course of events. It is a really difficult journey for the families of children with special needs. Looking after children with special needs is very tough on relationships. The socialisation process the Minister alluded to is even more of a concern with children with special needs.

Deputy Jim O’Callaghan: I thank the Minister.

Chairman: When the Minister and the Minister of State took up their new roles in the new Government they did not know what they were getting into. They faced many challenges. I acknowledge the officials in the Department of Education and, more importantly, the teaching staff, cleaners, secretaries and so on. In recent months, they have done a fantastic job of reopening schools and keeping them open.

I will pick up on Deputy Ó Laoghaire’s point about school fund-raising. As we all know, this has been a very important part of school funding for many years. Parents are absolutely fantastic at taking part through cake sales and other means. Schools very much depend on these fund-raising efforts. Life will change in schools, as it will for everybody, and they will face more expense. We can expect to see hand gel and other precautions in school for evermore. They stop the spread of Covid-19 and have been proven to help prevent colds, flu and other illnesses. I would like to see hand gel continue to be available in schools going forward. Ad- ditional funding will be needed. We have spent a lot of money on Covid-19 measures in recent months. Does the Minister have plans to increase capitation funding for the next several years?

I would also like to pick up on the issue of school transport, which Deputy Pádraig O’Sullivan raised. Urban Deputies might not understand this but it is a real bone of contention in rural Ire- land. To reiterate Deputy O’Sullivan’s point, a full review of school transport should be carried out. It is timely that we are spending more money on it now than in the past.

Perhaps the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, could comment on another issue. A huge amount of work has been done on special units in recent months. I know money is not an issue, but we should be very aware of the further expenses those units will face in the future.

Deputy Norma Foley: It should be noted that there has been a 2.5% increase in capitation. While not wanting to be repetitive, it must be acknowledged that substantial additional funding has gone into schools this year in terms of things that would normally gone on in schools such as cleaning and so forth but also additional items such as hand sanitiser and so on. Significant resources have been provided and a further €226 million will go into the schools to complete the school year from January to June.

On school transport, I appreciate where the Deputy is coming from and accept that leaving aside Covid, there are issues with school transport. I reiterate the point I made to Deputy Pád- raig O’Sullivan that work is ongoing to finalise the terms of reference for the review of school transport. It must be acknowledged that significant funding of approximately €100 million has been made available by the Government to bring the system to the capacity level required but apart from that, work is ongoing in putting the review together.

Deputy Josepha Madigan: Obviously schools can apply to the Department for additional

12 12 NOVEMBER 2020 capital funding if they want to expand the space within the school to provide special classes or to construct additional accommodation. There are exceptional circumstances where schools cannot facilitate special classes but funding is available. There is a working assumption within the Department that one child in five has a special need. Many such children have low-impact, high-incidence special needs like dyslexia and dyspraxia. Special needs are a lot more preva- lent than people realise. This is particularly true with autism and ASD units are central to the action priorities that I will be setting out.

Chairman: I thank the Minister and Minister of State for their attendance today. Both will be appearing before the committee again next Tuesday to discuss their priorities and a number of other issues. It just so happens that they will be in the dock again next week and I hope they do not mind. I thank them for coming in today. We will suspend briefly to allow the next set of witnesses to take their seats.

Sitting suspended at 12.23 p.m. and resumed at 12.27 p.m.

Estimates for Public Services 2020

Vote 45 - Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Revised)

Chairman: I welcome the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innova- tion and Science, Deputy Harris, the Minister of State at the same Department, Deputy Niall Collins, who has responsibility for skills and further education, and their officials to this meeting. I thank them for the briefing documents which were provided in advance of the meeting. Before we begin, I must point out that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science will meet at 1.20 p.m. to consider a motion on the date of commencement of the Munster technological university. As the support services need 15 minutes to reorganise this room in advance of that meeting, I must ask members, in a spirit of working together, to ensure that this meeting finishes at 1.05 p.m. This means that speaking slots will be reduced to two minutes each. I thank members for their co-operation and forbearance in this regard.

As the Minister and Minister of State are present, officials should not speak in public session. I will invite the Minister to make his opening statement, after which members can ask general questions on Vote 45 but before doing so, I wish to inform members that I asked the Minister to appear before the committee early in the new year to discuss the technological universities and related matters. In that context, I ask members to be as brief as possible and to be aware that I will cut them off if they go over time.

Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Depu- ty Simon Harris): The Chairman should feel free to cut me off too, if necessary. I will be brief so as not to take time from members. I am very grateful for the opportunity to address the committee, along with my ministerial colleague, Deputy Niall Collins, as part of its consideration of my Department’s Further Revised Estimate for 2020. This is the first time we have had Vote 45 constituted; it is a new Vote for a new Department. I propose to give a very brief overview of the Estimate and address any questions.

13 SEFHERIS This Further Revised Estimate includes two main components. The first involves moving money that was in the Department of Education and Skills to my Department. This comprises two expenditure programmes that transferred from Vote 26, namely those for skills development and for higher education. The Dáil previously voted on these elements on 16 July 2020. On 21 October, these relevant functions were transferred from the Department of Education to my Department. Therefore, element one is a straightforward transfer of the funding to go with the functions from the Department of Education to the new Department. The second part of the Revised Estimate is additional funding that has been included in this Estimate to meet the Covid-related expenditure incurred by the Department, which was approved by the Govern- ment and announced earlier in the year, as well as certain other expenditure.

I should say that there will be further transfers of functions into my Department but what we are looking today is the Vote that has transferred from the Department of Education. The primary additional functions to come relate to research and will transfer from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. These include the research area, Science Foundation Ireland and so on. The work to underpin these transfers is well advanced and I expect that in terms of funding, this will be reflected in the Revised Estimates for 2021. The further Revised Estimate for Vote 45 that is now before the committee provides for a net allocation of €2.402 billion. This represents a gross allocation of €2.506 billion reduced by appropriations-in-aid of some €103 million. This allocation includes the original gross allocation transferred from Vote 26, which I have gone through already. It also includes an additional €150 million allocated to provide for Covid-related expenditure, and this funding provides for support for institutions, students and researchers. It also includes an additional €23 million for 2020, allocated to the Department at budget time, which is reflected in the Estimate. This will support an additional capital grant of €15 million to higher education institutions, which is, effectively, a minor works scheme for higher education institutions, as well as €8 million for a new initiative managed by SOLAS. It is a new educational disadvantage fund for the further education and training sector. It is the first time we have had a ring-fenced fund for this and we need to make it a permanent part of the landscape.

At budget time, I also announced a once-off €50 million fund to support students in the context of Covid. I will be bringing proposals to Government next week on how we intend to distribute this fund. I believe we will have statements on third level education in the Dáil next Thursday and there will be an opportunity for me to seek Government approval on Tuesday and debate it and any other matter in the Dáil next Thursday. It is my intention to have to return for a Supplementary Estimate in this regard. In light of the time constraints I will leave it at that.

Deputy Alan Farrell: I welcome the Minister and Minister of State to the committee and thank them for coming before it. This is a very important, albeit brief, encounter on the establishment of the technological university in Munster, which I am delighted to see. I have a personal interest in the south east, so I look forward to that happening in due course as well.

My question is broader, I am sure the Minister will appreciate, than the establishment of the technological university in Munster, but it relates to admissions and college places next year. We all really appreciate how promptly the Department responded with additional spaces, particularly after the calculated grades issue was identified and rectified. The Department certainly responded promptly. Next year, we will potentially have another problem brewing because of the additional numbers that had to be created in this academic year. Is there a commitment to make sure these places are available next year? My next query is kind of set out in the Minis- ter’s long statement on the establishment of the other technological universities and perhaps I

14 12 NOVEMBER 2020 will leave it and ask for a response to my first question.

Deputy Simon Harris: I will have an opportunity to outline the technological university agenda at the second part of this meeting. I am very excited about it. It will be about more than just access to university education no matter where people live in our country, which is important. The impact on regional development could be very significant. The Deputy referenced the south east of our country. It has no universities. In the north west of the map of Ireland, forget about partition and politics, there is a big gaping hole, whether people are in Derry or Letterkenny, and there is a huge amount of work to be done there.

Specifically on the question about additional places, the Deputy is right to be looking ahead to the next leaving certificate. I am pleased we received funding in budget 2021 to retain, effectively, all of the additional places we put into the system this year. It was not a once-off blip or inflation of places. We have banked these places, which is important. A total of €18 million has also being provided in budget 2021 to deliver an additional 2,700 new undergraduate places from next September to address demographic growth pressures. This equates to an overall investment of almost €80 million since 2018 for extra places in higher education.

This year was an horrific year for students, but I hope one of the good things to come out of it will be significant investment in expanding higher education places. It would be very useful for the committee to hear from ourselves and the Department of Education on how we are plan- ning and preparing, and I have no doubt it will do so. Deputy Ó Laoghaire previously ques- tioned me on how we are preparing for the leaving certificate in 2021. From the Department’s point of view, making the additional places for this year a permanent feature and putting in extra places for demographic pressures is a large part of the role we are trying to play.

Deputy Jim O’Callaghan: I thank the Minister and Minister of State for coming before the committee and I commend them on the announcement from the Department earlier in the week on trying to encourage on-campus activity. It has been an horrific year for secondary and third level students. What type of proposals is the Minister engaging in with the third level institutions and how can he try to encourage greater on-campus activity? There is the danger that people will drop out.

Deputy Simon Harris: I am very glad the Deputy has asked me this. I am very worried, as I know he is, about the mental health and well-being of our students. I am also worried about the dropout rate. This is why I made the comments that I did. Our colleges have been great and they have followed public health advice. They have stepped up to the plate and acted in a co- ordinated manner. They have linked with us. This afternoon, I am meeting the representative bodies of the universities and institutes of technology and next week the Taoiseach, the Minister of State, Deputy Collins, and I will meet the presidents of our universities.

We have to follow public health advice and there will be no deviation from this. Safety for staff and safety for students will come first. If, God willing, this country gets back to level 3 because of the work people are putting in now with regard to the sacrifices people are making, it does have to mean more activity on campus than it would at level 5. That is logical. Today, the libraries are open and this is an important message. The libraries are still open and people can book them and use them. Not everyone has a safe place to learn at home. Practicals are ongoing, as is research. There is also an ability for universities to bring in small groups of students, such as vulnerable learners and people they are worried about. I would like to see a focus on first year students and, perhaps, final year students. I do not think I will be able to be prescrip- tive and say every institution must do this, because they come in all different shapes and sizes, 15 SEFHERIS but I do not think it is unreasonable, in return for the massive investment we are making in our university sector to help it with Covid, to say that in return we want to see an expansion of the on-site campus, subject to it being in line with public health advice. We will be able to bottom this out one way or the other in the next fortnight.

Deputy Jim O’Callaghan: I thank the Minister.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh: I thank the Minister. The first year student in my house will be pleased with that. With regard to the transfer of the functions and funding, when will it happen? I know the Minister has said it will be reflected in the 2021 figures with regard to enterprise, trade and employment. Was is easier to make the transfer from education? Are there blockages? Perhaps the Minister will speak about this.

Subhead B11 indicates that student support and related expenses amounted to €19 million, which was a decrease of 5% in 2020 compared with 2019. Is this an accurate figure? Why did this happen? What caused this reduction? As part of the 2021 budget announcement, the Min- ister earmarked €20 million in additional funding for the anticipated increase in SUSI eligible applicants. Is it the case that, even with the effects of Covid, we are only anticipating the need for the same level of funding as 2019? I am trying to get a grip on whether we really have more money or do we just have more announcements now that we have a specific Department. When we account for scheduled increases, such as pay and the high level of student numbers due to the demographic changes, what is the level of increase per student in further and higher education between 2019 and 2020? The Minister answered my question on the hardship fund and I look forward to seeing the outrun of this on Thursday.

Subheads B12 and B16 cover research and infrastructure. The Minister stated the research fund has not all been transferred over. We see a decrease in that the figure for research is 13% less. I take it this will be made up. Infrastructure is €6 million, or 7%, less than in 2019. With regard to infrastructure, I know one of the challenges this year was the extra places and that we did not have the laboratories and the physical infrastructure we needed. Are we going to have enough for that for them to get started as soon as possible in 2021?

Deputy Simon Harris: We do have a new Department, so I am pleased to say that we have new announcements and new funding, but I will share with the committee a useful document that I had done for myself which outlines the main features of budget 2021 and can help track where the additionality is. I will circulate a copy of that to the committee through the clerk at the end of this meeting.

On the transfer of functions question, I am being blunt and honest, but it was easier to do it from education to further and higher education because there was a very clear demarcation. We were basically lifting anything that did not involve going to primary or secondary school and moving it to the new Department. With the new Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employ- ment, it took a bit longer to work out what should be retained, for example, with Enterprise Ireland, versus what should come to the new Department. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform will bring the memo to Government this month to transfer those functions, and then the budget will be transferred with the agreement of this committee, early in the new year. Therefore there is no difficulty or blockage. The principal area for which we will be receiving responsibility is Science Foundation Ireland and, in addition to that, the responsibilities for research policy and innovation 2020.

In respect of the figure per student, it is an important figure, and I will get it to the Deputy

16 12 NOVEMBER 2020 because I do not have it. The point made by the Deputy on infrastructure is a fair one, and it is one of the reasons, when I got the chance to get some one-off money on budget day for 2020, we decided to favour capital investment. There is €15 million extra going out to the higher education institutes now for capital work schemes.

Subheading B12 relates to a technical adjustment. In fairness to every colleague here and myself, some of these tables are a little bit difficult, because some parts are remaining under the Department of Education and some parts are coming to my Department, so sometimes the minus figure can be a reflection of that.

On the issue of student support, I was asking the very same question. It just so happens that in terms of the demand for SUSI, we have not seen the level of increase that we expected to see, probably because we were in a good place economically at the start of 2020 in terms of people’s employment. However, we expect that figure to rise in 2021, and that is why we have set aside an additional €20 million.

Chairman: I ask the Minister to respond to the Deputy through the committee clerk.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh: I have already raised this issue with the Minister, but I am going to raise it again to keep it on the agenda. It concerns the funding of software costs. I know that significant funding has been allocated at third level in the area of hardware to try to close the digital divide and allow people participate in an off-campus way, but we need to keep an eye on the software issue because there are some packages that are still not funded, as I understand it.

The second issue I wish to raise is on the percentage of the labour force in the national quali- fication framework levels. The numbers of people remaining at levels 1 to 3 remains stubbornly high at 18%, and it shows that one of the areas in which we do not well in education this country is lifelong learning. I would like the Minister to comment on that issue and whether funding is being allocated to tackle it specifically.

The third issue relates to equality budgeting. The Minister’s Department was involved in a pilot scheme, and we have already seen great success in this area. The number of women involved in apprenticeships jumped from 145 in 2017 to 622 in 2019, which is excellent progress. We saw similar results in the film industry where there was another pilot programme run by the Department of the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin. Is equality budgeting going anywhere, however, and have the successes been fed back to the Department of Finance or the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Deputy Simon Harris: On the issue of software costs, I must have a separate conversation with the Deputy, because he clearly has a concern in respect of some examples and I am very happy to take them up. As a Department we engage very regularly with the Irish Universities Association, the Technological Higher Education Association and directly with the institutions, so if there are specific programmes, I would be happy to look into them.

The issue of lifelong learning is a key issue. Most of the questions I am asked are about universities, as though I am the minister for universities, but one of the big priorities for my Department has to be that of lifelong learning, the fact that we still have a level of participation in lifelong learning that is below the OECD average, and that our adult literacy levels still mask the veneer that we like to promote in terms of our country being a knowledge-based economy. That is why we are doing a few things to improve that. The educational disadvantage fund

17 SEFHERIS of €8 million that we have given to SOLAS for the first time ever is specifically about trying to engage with vulnerable learners, which is a bit of a catch-all term for those who might not otherwise be in a position to continue to interact with education in the community. Today, as part of the dormant accounts funding, I have announced funding of €600,000 for Travellers and Traveller education. Yesterday I had a joint meeting with the Minister for Education about a Traveller education plan, which is a commitment in the programme for Government.

We also need to ask ourselves why people are not engaging in lifelong learning in Ireland in a way that they are in other countries. I think there are two answers to that. One, is perhaps the rigidity of our education system, the idea being that the system has not been that respon- sive to people dipping in and out of education. Even when I have conversations with those in universities on this issue, there is this rigid idea that one goes and does a three- or four-year programme, but that does not work for everybody. I think a modular system could be a big thing. The second point is that, culturally in business, we need to change the attitude as well. I addressed Skillnet Ireland yesterday, and we are funding businesses - quite a lot now, thank- fully - to help them with skills and retraining. However, we need to help employers - whether it requires Government help is a different day’s work - so that it becomes a normal part of being in the workforce that a person can take time out to reskill and upskill, because we need that and we are not where we need to be on that.

On the issue of equality budgeting, I will come back to the Deputy with a proper note that perhaps I could send to the committee. However, I do take his point, and wherever I look in my Department I do see huge issues of inequality, and the whole area of gender inequality is very pertinent. As the Deputy said, we have made progress in respect of apprenticeships, but we still have a long way to go. There is a degree of “if you see it, you can be it”, to the issue. For example, up until a few weeks ago we had never had a female president of a university in this country.

Deputy Pádraig O’Sullivan: I welcome both Ministers to the committee. I have only one question for the Minister, which concerns the €50 million fund. I know that he is bringing it to Cabinet shortly and he might not be able to share all the details, if any, with us. It was initially announced in media circles that the funding was going to equate to €250 per student. Will he give the committee any indication if the funding will be per student or per head or will it be allocated on a needs basis with some type of assessment in that regard? Will the funding be available to SUSI students only or will it be open to students who are studying in the UK, although they might be doing so from Ireland at the moment given the Covid restrictions? I ask the Minister to give the committee an indication of whether there will be an assessment for the allocation of such funding.

If there is time, and I am happy for him to answer in writing, on a separate issue, there was an initiative for a €3,000 incentive for employers to take on apprentices until the end of June or July. I ask him to outline his plans for that kind of incentive going forward.

Deputy Simon Harris: On the Deputy’s final point first, I am really pleased with how the incentive scheme is going, and I will get the committee the latest figures. However, the last time I checked, approximately 1,000 new apprentices had taken up that scheme, so it really has worked and I have received very good feedback from both apprentices and businesses who have availed of it. It was due to run out in December 2020, but we made a decision in the budget to keep it going for the first six months of 2021. My view is that if it is working, I would like to see the scheme as a permanent part of our landscape, but we have our apprenticeship action plan due to go to Cabinet by Christmas and that will try to tease out some of those issues. 18 12 NOVEMBER 2020 On the €50 million, what I can say and have said before is that there are two cohorts whom we are trying to assist. First, there are those who are in receipt of the SUSI grant, and by virtue of the fact that they are in receipt of this grant, we recognise, as a State, that they need financial assistance. The most obvious way to help them is with a once-off top-up to the SUSI grant, which I would like to happen in the majority of cases in advance of Christmas, if at all possible. The second group is the many students who do not get the SUSI grant and who also have met additional financial costs this year. I am looking at a way of supporting them, be it through a credit note, rebate or other option. I need to tease those things through, but the direct answer to the Deputy’s question is that it is not just a scheme for students in receipt of SUSI grants. We aim to support all full-time students in higher education at undergraduate level, and I am also looking into whether we can also do something at postgraduate level. We will have further details of that next week.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: I thank the Ministers. As we are tight for time, I would like to raise two issues. It is desirable and the objective is that where possible, students should be in publicly funded accommodation on campus or adjacent to campus. The problem is that much of the accommodation provided by third level institutions is through arm’s length companies, which have taken an enormous financial hit in recent times. While students might have a contrary view, those companies often believe they need to increase rents. Many of them are financially unsustainable. Moreover, my understanding is that universities are at least discour- aged, if not prohibited, from cross-funding these arm’s length bodies. That is already a problem and I suspect it could be a growing problem. If these companies come under increasing pressure, rents could become increasingly higher putting them even further beyond the reach of students.

I have raised the issue of apprenticeships previously. While some public bodies are good, many of them are not the best at taking on apprentices. That needs to be looked at. I particularly highlight local authorities. Again, some are good, and some are not so good. The same is true of universities and other third level institutions. I was contacted by a tradesperson - I will not make him too identifiable - in one of the major universities. He has been trying to get an apprenticeship programme running in that university for some years. He has met resistance and would love to bring it on because the skills involved would be very particular and diverse. That issue needs to be examined in public bodies, including universities.

Deputy Simon Harris: I will comment on the student accommodation and will ask the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, to comment on the apprenticeship issue. I will level with the Deputy here and I am sure he will remind me of these comments in the future. I do not think our policy on student accommodation is working. I do not think it is robust enough and the State does not have enough levers to pull. I am frequently asked about what I am going to do to support particular students. I look at the legal options available to me and they are often not there.

I believe we need to devise a funding model that enables particularly our institutes of technology, now to be our technological universities, to build student accommodation. Technologi- cal University Dublin, the largest higher education institution in the country, is unable to build student accommodation. We will shortly discuss the Munster technological university in the Deputy’s neck of the woods, which is in a similar situation. We will continue to open technological universities.

While I am not the Minister for housing, this is a housing challenge as much as an education challenge. Students are competing with families with two or three children for the same house. 19 SEFHERIS I do not think the strategy between the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and my Department is adequate. I will be working with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, to come up with a better plan. It must involve, as part of the building of technological universities, the building of purpose-built institution-owned student accommodation.

I would genuinely be interested in working with the Deputy and this committee on it. I could say we are going to get all our colleges to give refunds to students who are in college- owned accommodation. They largely do so when issues arise, but that does not affect most of the students. I would be very happy to have a session on this with the committee and would welcome members’ ideas. The challenge is to find a funding mechanism that we can get through the whole of Government.

Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, In- novation and Science (Deputy Niall Collins): I thank the Deputy for his question. We are acutely aware of the hit and miss approach to apprenticeships by local authorities. Dublin City Council offers them, but my local authority in the mid-west does not. We think it should be carried out on a uniform basis. I have sent a note to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage on it. It is under active consideration as part of the apprenticeship action plan. About 60 submissions on that have been received and they are being actively considered. That is also a component of it. We are acutely aware of the issue.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire: I appreciate and welcome that. I am talking about public authorities and State bodies generally.

Deputy Niall Collins: The Deputy is right. For example, Irish Rail and ESB offers apprenticeships. State entities and State companies in other areas are actively engaged in offering apprenticeships and employing people through apprenticeships. There is no reason not to have a uniform approach through our local authorities.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin: I appreciate what the Minister said about housing and we can return to that.

He probably knows what I am going to ask about. I am interested in the €8 million fund for education disadvantage. I am very excited about the new Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and about the Minister and Minister of State who are working in it.

Some 17.9% of Irish adults are functionally illiterate. Are people aware of that statistic? Do they know what functional illiteracy means? How we can grasp this issue as a country and drive it down? Making our people literate is a major challenge but it is even bigger when people do not even realise the problem exists. That one in six of Irish adults are functionally illiterate should set alarm bells ringing. I am greatly encouraged that the Minister has been to the forefront of raising the matter. He is trying to find solutions and funding mechanisms to tackle it. I ask the Minister to expand on that. Along with other members of this committee I am determined to work with both the Ministers to achieve improvements in that area in the period of this Oireachtas. Many people in all age ranges have that severely debilitating issue, which minimises their capacity to fully engage in Irish society. It is truly crippling. I will continue to ask the Minister how we can work together to highlight it and hopefully resolve it.

Deputy Simon Harris: I thank the Deputy for his leadership and many years of work on the issue, about which I feel very passionate. One of the reasons for people not knowing about

20 12 NOVEMBER 2020 it is the institutionalised stigma that exists. We talk about destigmatising illiteracy and the likes, as we should, but we as leaders are not talking about it enough because we are rightly busy promoting our country as being a knowledge-based economy. We ask companies to come and invest in Ireland because we have a great workforce. While all that is true, it should not take away from the fact that a significant number of people are being locked out of economic and social inclusion. The Deputy knows as well as I do about the intergenerational effect of it.

In the first instance I am determined to use the role I am honoured to hold to support ini- tiatives. For example, I recently spoke at a graduation ceremony in Portlaoise Prison for six students who had trained as literacy tutors. Not only had they tackled their own literacy issues, they will now tutor other people in the prison. I had a very good meeting with representatives of the Irish Prison Service and others about the intergenerational deprivation that often results in somebody ending up in prison. Whatever about the person in prison today, how can we ensure we get to his or her children at home to provide them with the gift of educational literacy to break the cycle of deprivation?

Tomorrow the National Adult Literacy Agency, NALA, and others will launch the consultation for our adult literacy, numeracy and digital skills strategy. I will send details of that to the Deputy. Obviously, a literacy consultation needs to be inclusive. It cannot just be sticking something up on a website, which would be utterly ironic. We need work out how to take it on a Covid-safe roadshow to engage with all our communities and organisations. I will be relying on and I know I will receive the Deputy’s help and support in that regard.

SOLAS has about five or six months to come back with our literacy strategy. That will be a big piece of work for it to deliver in 2021. I am very encouraged by the group of people working across Departments on this. They are passionate and committed, as is NALA. Much of this is us talking about it and encouraging other people to talk about it and to know that people are not alone in having literacy issues. As NALA explained to me, literacy is not like riding a bike, it is like a muscle that needs constant exercise. I look forward to working with the Deputy on it.

Chairman: I welcome the establishment of the new Department. It is a great addition, specifically for higher education and third level. Has the Minister found a permanent residence yet or is he still hunting for space for headquarters for the Department? It is important because setting up a new Department is difficult. Will he update us on that?

Deputy Simon Harris: I do not want anyone thinking I am getting a residence out of it. I proudly live in Greystones but the new Department is currently based temporarily in Leeson Lane in the Department of Transport. That is where we are squatting and the Office of Public Works, OPW, is trying to identify some physical accommodation. The fact that the overwhelm- ing majority of people are working from home in line with public health guidelines has worked so far. I am eager in terms of creating an entity and a sense of belonging that the accommodation issue is sorted. The OPW is engaging with my Department on that but we do not yet have permanent premises identified.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh: The Minister raised the issue of accommodation and I have a question in light of his meeting with the presidents of the universities next week. He told us that five of the seven campuses were going to do refunds. They are not doing refunds. There is a particular problem with the University of Limerick, UL. It is separate in terms of Sligo, but there is a problem there as well. Perhaps the Minister will raise the problem of refunds with UL. Has there been any progress on University College Dublin and Trinity College Dublin in relation to on-campus accommodation refunds? 21 SEFHERIS Deputy Simon Harris: I think it was Dublin City University and Trinity but I will check that. I will follow up what the Deputy says on UL and Sligo. It is my clear view that if it is university-owned or institute of technology-owned campus accommodation, they should be providing refunds or coming to an alternative flexible arrangement. I am disappointed to hear that. After I meet the presidents next week, I will provide the Deputy with a written update.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh: I thank the Minister.

Chairman: I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their officials for their construc- tive engagement at this meeting.

Message to Dáil

Chairman: In accordance with Standing Order 101, the following message will be sent to the Dáil:

The Select Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innova- tion and Science has completed its consideration of the following Revised Estimates for public services for the year ending 31 December 2020: Vote 26 - Education and Skills, and Vote 45 - Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.

The select committee adjourned at 1.02 p.m. sine die.