1,381 Members Present LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Unofficial Notices 1,382

The Hon. Dr. C. Jagan (Czntral LEGISUUIVE COUNCIL ). �,, The Hon. W. 0. R. Kendall (New Amsterdam). WEDNESDAY, 25TH AUGUST, 1948 The Hon. C. A. McDoom (Nominated}.

The Hon. A. T. A,ters (Western . . , The Council met at 2 p.m., His Berbke}. �xcellency the Governor, Sir Charles Woolley, KC.M.G., O.B.E., M.C., Presi- dent, in the Chair. The Hon. John Carter (Georgetown South}.

The Hon. E. M. Gonsalve� (Nom­ PRESENT inated).

The President, His Excellency the The Clerk read prayers. Governor, Sir CHARLES CAMPBELL WOOLLEY, KC.M.G., O.B.E., M.C. The M:inutes of the meeting of the The Hon. thz Colonial Secretary, Mr. Council held on Friday, the 13th of W. · L. Heape, C.M.G. August, 1948, as printed and circulated, were taken as read and confirmed. The Hon. the Attorney General, Mr. F. W. Holder, K.C. PAPER LAID

The Hon. the Colonial Treasurer, Mr. The COLONIAL SECRETARY, laid E. F. McDavid, C.M.G., C.B.E. on the table.

The Hon. C. V. Wight, O.B.E., The Post Office Savings Bank (Western ). (Amendment No. 2) Regulations. No. 23 of 1948. The Hon. Dr. J. B. Singh, O.B.E. (Demerar'a-Essequibo). UNOFFICIAL NOTICES

The Hon. Dr. J. A. Nicholson (George­ RICE INDUSTRY ENQUIRY town North}.

The Hon. T. Lze (Essequibo River). Mr. DEBIDIN gave notice of the following motions :- The Hon. W. 'J.· Raatgever (Nomi­ (a) WHEREAS the Rice Industry is. nated). one of the major industries, of the Colony and a large percentage of the population is ·engaged in rice j The Hon. V. Roth (Nominated). production and are comoletely dependent on the industry for 1 : The Hon. T. T. Thompson (Nomi­ their livelihood. f ' nated). AND WHEREAS there is vital need for increased production of The Hon. Capt. J. P. Coghlan (Dem­ rice and for greater encourage­ erara River). ment to peasant rice farmers;

The Hon. D. P. Debidin (Eastern AND WHEREAS from present Demerara). day figures the cost of production is. much higher than the price obtained by producers in all The · Hon. Dr. G. M. Gonsalves grades except Super which grade r,Eastern ). is very rarely obtainable. 1,383 Unofficial 25 AUGUST, 1948 .. Notices. 1,384

AND WHEREAS producers (e) To enquire into the cost of milling coupled with the mounting cost of padi an'd the question of fixing a living would operate as a serious reasonable price or fee for milling; discouragement to rice producers. and in the Colony to continue or to take up rice farming in the future (f) Generally to recommend on any and the industry would suffer other matters pertaining to the thereby; Rice Industry. AND WHEREAS Producers have been subjected during war SECURITY OF TENURE FOR SUGAR time to control of the Rice Indus­ try by Defence Regulations and ESTATE LABOUREllS' TENANCY. • today the entire industry is gov­ erned by the Rice Marketing (b) WHEREAS a very large percent­ Board Ordinance which has taken age of our population are resident the place of the Defence Regu­ upon sugar Qlantations- in the Col­ ulations and all prices are con­ ony and supply labour for cane trolled a·nd fixed under this cultivation, su_gar production and Ordinance; other subsidiary work on sugar estates; AND WHEREAS there is grave dissatisfaction throughout the AND WHEREAS the majority of Colony over not only the price these labourers are descendants of paid to producers but also the immigrants who came inder;itured working of the Rice Marketing to the sugar estates under a con­ Board chiefly in the very high cost dition that "a suitable dwelling of the administration of the shall be assigned to the emigrant Board and the extremely low price and family, if any, free of rent obtained fo!· our exported rice and s,hall be kept in good repair which is approximately one­ by the employer" ; third of the World Market price ; AND WHEREAS for generations AND WHEREAS there is urgent each sugar estate had the some­ need for a close public enauiry to what exclusive benefit of the la­ be taken throughout the Colony bour of the resident population by into the whole question of cost virtue of such residence - i.e. by of production and prices. with a their being provided with free view to their satisfactory adjust­ dwellings; ments; AND WHEREAS the Sugar Estate Be IT RESOLVED that this Employers, regarding the tenancy Council respectfully request Gov­ of labourers on the estate as a ernment to appoint a committee Tenancy at Will unger which any of five with the Economic Adviser period e.g.

BILLS - F'IRST READING. The PRESIDENT: When the Council adjourned on the 13th August, the hon. The following Bills were read the first Member for Essequibo River was replying time and notice given of their second reading: to the debate on the motion standing in his name. A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to amend the Summary Jurisdiction (Magistrates) Ordinance with re­ Mr. LEE: I understand the hon. spect to Maintenance Orders." Member for Demerara River would like to make some explanation. A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to amend the Crown Lands Resump­ The PRESIDENT: What is the point? tion Ordinance with respect to lands which may be resumed bv the Crown". Capt. COGHLAN: I crave your indulgence. It is on Universal Adult A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to Suffrage. There have been two amend­ amend the Post OfficeSavings Bank ments on the motion. The first was that Ordinance, 1947, with respect to the date of calculation of interest on t'.1ere should be a literacy test in any � ( deposits." language ,and the second was that the literacy test should be in English. What A Bill intituled "An Ordinance to we are concerned with is to know if the extend the powers of Co-operative Credit Banks for the purpose of the voter kno,.:vs for whom he is voting. I increase of food production". have worked out a formula for approval by the Council. You may consider it. I A Bill intituled "An Ordinance fur­ know foe Home Government is in favour ther to amend the Licensed Prem­ of Universal Adult Suffrage.- ises Ordinance. 1944, with respect to the opening and closing hours of The PRESIDENT: I do not think the licensed premises and for purposes connected therewith." hon. Member is entitled to make that 1,387 Motion 25 AUGUST, 1948. Adult Suffrage. 1,388 statement, when he has got the .statement ing those people to vote who were not in of H.M. Government which I read to the a way compelled to receive that educa­ Ccuncil. That is the present position, and tion which the Govermnent had insisted the hon. Member cannot go beyond that. upon and the majority of whom are of the working class of this Colony. Capt. COGHLAN: I am not going beyond that. The w:wle question is if the I further desire to say, what fear can person knov;s for whom he is voting. We. there be amongst us because one section have heard from many speakers - of the community is in the majority and ◄ desires to elect of their own class for the The PRESIDENT: What is the hon. Legislative Council? If they come here Member's point? what would happen? Let us assume for the sake of argument that they come here Capt. COGHLAN: The point is to in the majority; if they do anything right know how we can cut a way so that who or wrong the majority would be affected may be illiterate will still be able to by it and that would be themselves. Let exercise the franchise. us not have any such fear when it comes to be good of the country. The popula­ The PRESIDENT: I am afraid the ticn of this country is cosmopolitan. Let hon. Member is not in order. The debate us realize they are human beings like has already been completed. If he has ourselves who work equally with us, and any question to raise in regard to the net because- -they are illiterate in the sense amendments before us or an explanation that they cannot read and write they of them, I would give him that oppor­ should be debarred from that privilege. As tunity before I put them to the vote. If I have previously 3aid, that privilege has he wants to be clear as to where he been granted them in the minor adminis­ stands when votin_g, I would do that for •tration of village areas, where any person him as soon as the Mover has replied. wio is the owner of property can vote because he has an interest in the particu­ Capt. COGHLAN: Thank you! lar village. He is given that right by law. Everyone of us is liable to whatever Mr. LEE: Your Excellency, on the Duties are imposed and contributes to the previous occasion, I was replying to the revenue of foe Colony, and the workers amendment moved by the hon. Member are equally interested in the welfare of the for Georgetown North and trying to point community, in the welfare of their par­ out to you and this Council that accord­ ticular industry, as anyone who has ing to the Report of the Franchise Com­ invested capital in the Colony. Why then mission of 1941, which was published in s'.1ould we sa:v now that we cannot give 1944, there was an obligation on this Gov­ them the right and privilege of votin_g ernment to rectify something that was Vl"hen it comes to this Legislative Council'! not properly done by a previous adminis­ tration or this Government. T;,at was to Let us assume for the sake of argu­ rectify the question of illiteracy under ment that they are given the right and the Swettenham Circular. If hon. Members privilege of voting, they will not exercise have read the Report, which I hcpe they that right until the next General Election have, they would certainly see that it unless there is · a by-election. In the proves conclusively that the Adminis­ interim this Council can vote money to tration in that year made a mistake in start a literacy campaign so that they suspending the enforcement of compul­ will not have only that knowledge of sory primary education. It was wrong in Teading a simple sentence that is required. my humble opinion. which I respectfully The Commission that was set up to submit. This Council, knowing that and enquire into the Franchise required only being cognisant of the fact that the ad­ a simple sentence to be read in the vancement of political views is towards langnage under which they feel they giving the masses the privilege and right should be given the right and privilege to of electing their representatives to every vote. Your Efcellency, I feel that if this public body, I respectfully submit, will not Council siould deny them that right and be doing anyfoing that is wrong in allow- privilege it would be casting a blot on 1,389 Motion 1,390 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Adult Suffrage. those Members who stand for political together in order to bring about a forward advancement for the benefit of this movement· for the progress of this Colony, Colony. I appeal to Your Excellency as and many Members know that the policy Governor of this Colony to see whether of the Party_, as laid down, printed and it is not possible in some form or fashion published, aims at the progress of the to convince those against the motion that Colony and is not to the detriment of it is in the interest of the Colony that that financial. interests or persons who desire privilege be granted. to come into the Colony and invest •• capital. There was never any such idea, On the other hand, let us assume for and I desire it to be known that the the sake of argument that if that privi­ Labour Party and the Trade Unions. will lege is granted this Council would be support any capital coming into this flooded with the votes of that particular Colony for the development or progress class and race. What would happen? I Jf this Colony. do not ask that they be given power to do an:vthing that is not of benefit to this Col­ I do not see why we should be fear­ ony. Under Crown Colony Government ful when there is no need for fear at all. the last word is with Your Excellency and As the hon. Member for Eastern Berbice your advisers at all times. This life of this said, he contested with three other can­ Council is only five years, but Your didates who are Indians for his seat and Excellency has the right to proTOgue it at he headed the poll. That showed that the any time should you find its policy is not people are exercising their right to elect in keeping with Imperial policy. I the candidate who will give them am positive that no right-thinking person the best service. There is no doubt in this Colony would at any time stand that the hon. Member won by a majority up against Your Excellency exercising which cannot be disputed. The Indians that right in the interest. of the Colony. were in the majority in that division but There are Elected Members who will say they felt that the hon. Member, although it is not in the interest of the Colony, but of a different race, would give them the I feel sure that at no time whatever will service they desired. Then we come to they let down their own people. the Demerara River division. My good friend, the hon. Member for that division When you talk of financial status, fought Indian and African candtdates and, they have as much financial status as any. as he has said himself, the people's intelli­ cf the others, save Booker Bros., gence directed them to the election of the McConnell & Co., Ltd., who have a lot of person who they felt would give them invested interest in the Colony. But no service. In that division there are seven Member of this Council will in any way sugar estates and several villages peopled try to destroy or to belittle the efforts of by Indians and Africans.' Therefore if any financial people coming into this these people are given the privilege of Colony fo;i: the progress of the Colony. Does universal adult suffrage would they not Your Excellency believe that at any time, act in the same way ? As I understood, whether the voters are literate or illiter­ there were supporters ·of his who stood ate, this Council will throw out anything on public platforms and spoke to the of a financial nature or an investment people in Hindi in support of his candida­ where the masses will be benefited by that ture. I do not think my hon. friends are investment? There will be new indus­ really thinking of the progress and ad­ tries, new capital brought into the vancement of this Colony when they Colony. Would the masses permit any of oppose this motion. the Elected Members to stand here and destroy the advancement of those indus­ When we come to the point made by tries? I do not feel that hon. Members the hon. Nominated Member, Mr. Farnum, of this Council have considered that that those Guianese who went to the question in detail. Why is there the fear War were able to sign their names when j of these people taking advantage of their drawing their pay while many other majority in a district'. When we started servicemen from the Caribbean area were the Labour Party we unable to do so, I want to point out that found out that all races must be united some of those same illiterate people have 1 i 1,391 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948. Adult Suffrage. 1,392 been granted the right to vote for the enjoys its own freedom. Those estates election of Members of the Legislative were developed and some of them are Council in their Colonies through the now abandoned, and some of the absentee introduction of adult suffrage. Are we proprietors are among the people who to say that those people cannot judge have taken shares in local companies. The rightly in matters relating to the political choice of the immigrants to return to progress of their respective Colonies? Are their country has been take_n away and we the only right thinkers in the political they are granted the right to vote here arena in British Guiana. With the ex­ in their own vernacular or language. ception of Georgetown and New Amster­ dam, Mr. Jacob, a former Member of this The PRESIDENT: Will the hon. Council, and I travelled to the various Member please address the Chair? parts of the Colony and held meetings relating to this and othe1· matters. We Mr. ,LEE: Yes, Sir. I am saying that sent to this Government copies of reso­ ycu gave to those immigrants the right lutions passed at those meetings and they to vote in their own language - Sanscrit showed that in every instance the people or Hindi - and now you want to tell were asking Government for this right of them that whether they are East Indians, universal adult suffrage. I feel that if Chinese, Portuguese or else, they must every Elected Member goes to his con­ pass a literacy test in English if they stituency and puts this question in a want to exercise the right to vote. proper way to the voters he would be given a mandate to vote in favour of this The COLONIAL SECRETARY: To a motion. I feel that hon. Members would point of order! I do not think Govern­ be making one of the greatest mistakes ment wants that at all. if they vote according to their own Judgment and without consulting their Mr. LEE: I am talking about the respective constituencies, hecause I have amendment; that is what it suggests. visited all the constituencies and I know that the voters are willing to give their The COLONIAL SECRETARY: I representatives mandates to vote for adult think it should be made quite clear that suffrage. If Elected Members care to that is not the wish of Government. vote against the motion without consult­ ing their constituencies, they would be Mr. LEE: It is not the wish of Gov­ exercising their own consciences and their ernment but it is the wish of a Member own judgment - not the judgment of the here that the literacy test should only be people in the constituencies. in English. I am trying to point out that is a retrograde step and an insult to As regards the amendment urging those of us who are the representatives that there should be a literacy test in of the people who have given their lives English only, I regret very much that it for this Colony. I know that the sugges­ should have been introduced into this tion cannot be expunged from the records Council because it cuts strikingly - and but it should not be introduced here. I I choose that word to show the kind and am sorry it has been put forward and I class of people we have in this Colony. would like hon. Members of this Cuuncil Do supporters of that amendment feel to realise that whatever views or interests that it is in the best interest of all con­ we represent we are one community, and cerned? The masses if left to themselves uniess we realise that we will not be would not be able to develop the Colony; able to make any forward step for the they have not got capital and it wBuld benefit of the Colony as a whole. I am have to ccme from other parts of the sure the majority of the Members of this world to do so. Capitalists, hGwever, Council will not vote at any time in have already enjoyed the fruits from favour of such an amendment. the labour of the masses. The Imperial Government in order to develop I will now deal with the last point estates owned by absentee pro- whn::h I regard as the hardest hurdle for prietors, brought slaves to this Colony - me to go over, but I feel I shall be able immigrants from a country which now to do so convincingly. The Royal Com- 1,393 Motion - LEGISLATIVE CoUNCil,, Adult Suffrage. 1,394 mission came to this Colopy and recom­ ML LEE: Yes; I ha,:e read the para­ mended to this Government that a local graph and it says "some of our mem­ ., Commission be appointed to go into this be1·s .... " It does not say how many, but question of the franchise. That was done I think it indicates clearly to Government and the members of the Commission and to this Council that the views ex­ represented all classes of the ccmmunity, pressed therein were those of the majority. the majority cf them being then Members of the Legislative Council. That Com­ The PRESIDENT: I do not agree mission took time and went into the with the hon. Member; he seems to be details, travelling to various parts of the straining the wording of the Commission's Colony and taking evidence from many Report. He should state all the facts witnesses, after having been given the otherwise he would be misleading. He widest possible terms of reference. The must not put on a construction which is Commission started its work in 1941 and not warranted by the actual wording. reported in 1944, so one can realise how many difficulties it had to surmount in Mr. LEE: If there was any dissent­ travelling to the various districts and so ing vote with respect to that paragraph it on. I was a member of that Commission, would have been shown in the Report. and we went right through to Berbice, to The only dissenting votes were with Essequibo - Bartica and ofaer places. respect to the minority reports, one of We took evidence with the object of find­ whic:1 was written by Mr. Edun and the ing out what vvas in the minds of the other by Mr. Jacob, Mr. Gajraj, Dr. Singh people as regards this particular question and myself. What I am saying is that the and you will see, Sir, that there: are sev­ Commission which represented all classes eral paragraphs in the Report dealing with and sections of the community went fully this particular aspect of the question - into this question and expressed the views adult suffrage. In par. 53, the Report contained in par. 53 as regards universal states:- adult suffrage, and the 5 years mentioned in that paragraph will have expired before "5:l. Some of our members are of there is another general election. the opinion that the introduction of universal adult suffra11:e should be post­ poned for a period of five years. while Now, Sir, the question of the census others consider that the entire question was also gone into fully by the Commis­ of the franchise should again be ex­ sion and the evidence obtained showed amined before a final decision is reached that there were no definite figures to on so important a question, and then only after a ne,iV Census - last under­ prove the number cf illiterates in each taken in 1931 - has been taken." district of the Colony. Some of us were waiting to see whether we could have found out if the percentage of illiteracy Now, Sir, having realised that this had dc::reased apnreciably in order to Ccmmission reported in 1944, let us say strengthen the argument that these people that the 5 years would have taken us on sho1!ld be granted the right to exerci£e to 1949; I am asking that adult the vote. Up to 1·ecently one newspaper su!Trage should not come into operation --the Daily Chronicle - disclosed that until this Council is dissolved, and that illiterates are in the minority among the i would be in 1953. Therefore, f this population of the Colony, and I feel that Council is prepared to accept this recom­ we can with confidence give to thesf mendation it would be a matter of 9 years people the right of universal adult after the Franchise Commission has re­ suffrage. I do not know whether Your ported that it would come into operation. Exc�llency or any other Member of this The Commission was appointed by Your Council feels that this matter should go Excellency's predecessor and the mem­ to another Committee, but the same bers were:- questions would have to be considered and the memoranda sent by various The PRESIDENT: You are not persons to the Commission would also be quotrng the entire Commission but the there. If Your Excellency and the hon. views of some of be members. You Members of thi;; Council look at the should make that point clear. records it would be seen that the majority I 1,395 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948. Adult Suffrage. 1,396 were in favour of granting adult suffrage adult suffrage. was granted at a later to the people. date symbols were used with equal s'uccess at the general elections which The PRESIDENT: I am sorry to took place some months ago. Universal interrupt the hon. Member, but he must adult suffrage has also been granted to not draw such conclusions about a matter the people of Trinidad and I have no on wnich there was considerable differ­ doubt that it worked successfully there. <, ence of opinion. There is one thing Here we have two Colonies in the Carib­ I which is undoubtedly correct and that is, bean area - Jamaica and Trinidad - in the question of universal adult suffrage which it has been proved that voting can was considered; but the hon. Member be clone successfully by symbols and I de, cannot say that the majority were in not see why we cannot do likewise in favour of it. I do not want the public to British Guiana. When there ir. legislation get the wrong impression. to be passed in this Colony we often find out how similar legislation operates in Mr. LEE: I was a member of the Jamaica and Trinidad and sometimes Commission and I can say definitely that copy from what they have done, taking the memoranda sent in by the Trade them as examples. Unions which represent the majority of the workers were in favour of universal The ATTORNEY-GENERAL: I do adult suffrage. not agree with the hon. Member when he speaks about copying laws. The PRESIDENT: That is a different matter. Mr. ,LEE: If we do not copy we often take Jamaica and Trinidad as examples in Mr. LEE: Another question that was introducing new legislation, and it seems gone into was the question of the right of to me we can also take them as examples a wife to vote. It was suggested that a where voting by· symbols has proved a · wife's allowance from her husband should success. No one can deny that there are be regarded as income in order to qualify spoilt votes at elections in every country her as a voter. but that was struck out. in the world, even in those in which there I mention that to show that the Commis­ is 'no illiteracy. I often blame candidates sicn went so far as to enquire into the in this Colony for spoilt votes, however, income of husbands in an endeavour to because I feel that if they instruct voters give wives the right to vote. The Com­ bow to vote during the course of their mission also considered the question of election campaign there would not be such giving a wife the right to be a Member of a great number of spoilt votes as we had this Council provided she earned an at the last general elections. With these income equivalent to at least half of that remarks I feel that if hon. Members con­ of her husband. All these details wen� sider all the circumstances carefully they fully considered and, I think, the time has would not fail to grant to these people arrived when universal adult suffrage the right and privilege of electing their should be granted to the people. representatives in this Council. The last question deals with the manner in which voting should be carried The PRESIDENT: I shall now put on. During the last 10 or 15 years. the the words of the question as in the Imperial Government granted universal original motion. adult suffrage to certain Colonies as an experiment in order to find out whether Council divided and voted as follows: people who are illiterate can vote accord­ ing to their consciences and for the right For: Messrs. Carter, McJ?oom, persons. It was tried in Ceylon where Debidin, and Lee, Dr. Jagan, Capt. Cogh­ the majority of the population were illit­ lan, and Dr. Singh-7. erate and it was proved conclusively that by a system of symbols the people can Against: Messrs. Gonsalves, Peters, identify the candidates for whom they Kendall, Thompson, Rctth, and Raatgever, desire to vote and vote in secrecy. Dr .. Gonsalves, Dr. Nicholson and Mr. Similarly, in Jamaica where universal Wight-9. 1,397 Adult Suffrage LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Elected Council. 1,398 Did not vote: The Colonial Treas­ in no position to express any considered urer, the Attorney-General and the opinion on the matter at the mcment. I Colonial Secretary-3. regard th() question as one of vital importance, and I do hope the hon. Original motion lest. Member will not try to rush me into expressing any opinion on it now. It is The PRESIDENT: I will new put the a matter which I propose to study very • amendments and would like the Council carefully, and I do suggest to the hon. ' to be quite clear in voting on these Member t 1at being so vitally important amendments . The first is by the hon. it should not be rushed. There is not Member for Berbice River to the effect that great urgency about it. We are t:rnt the motion be referred to an ad hoc proposing to take a great step forward, Ccmmittee "to censider whether. and if an important step forward, and I am as so in what form, and when, universal anxious as every hon. Member of this adult suffrage should be introduced." I Council that the step we take should be think that is quite clear: Hon Members the right one. I can assure t:1e Council that will find a copy of that amendment in the I will not only give the matter most minutes. As regards the two other careful thought and consideration myself amendments they are, it seems to me, but I shall report the views of hon. practically the same. There is very little Members to H.M. Government, and that difference except that in one of them­ is, I think, what we all want. the one moved by the Second Nominated Member-it is stated that the literacy Mr. LEE: Thank you, Sir. test should be in English only, whereas - the one moved by the hon. Member for Georgetown North states that the literacy WHOLLY ELECTED COUNCIL. test should rc,'l1ain as it is at present. I The next item was a motion by hope that it is quite clear to hon. Members Mr. LEE as follows : $0 that wh1>n 1hey vote they would under­ stand what the implications are. I will '·WHEREAS certain members of now put the amendment moved by the the l 941 Franchise Commission recom­ mend Ed '·that the 14 Electoral Districts hon. Member for Berbice River. should be redistributed to allow of 24 Elected Members", as detailed on Amendment put, the Council dividing page 24 of the Report of the British and voting as follows :- Guiana Franchise Commission, 1941. Legislative Council Paper No. 10 of For : Messrs. Peters, McDoom, 1944; Kendall, Roth, Lee, Wight, Dcbidin, Dr. AND WHEREAS fae time has Jagan, Dr. Gonsalves, Dr. Singh and Capt. arrived for the Constitution of British Coghlan.-! 1. Guiana to be changed so as to provide for a wholly elected Legislative Council Ag a i n s t : Messrs. Gonsalves hased on universal adult suffrage and Thompson, Ro1atgever, and Dr. Nicholson the attainment r,f complete self-govern­ ment in internal affairs within five -4. years; Did not vote : Mr. Carter, the BE IT RESOLVED that His Excel­ Colonial Treasurer, the Attorney-General lency the Governor be respectfully and the Colonial Secretary-4. requested to consider the appointment of a representative Commission to con­ Amendment carried. sider ihe whole question and to report before June, 1948." Mr. LEE : May I enquire from you, I formally move Sir, when the Committee will be Mr . .LEE : Before the second motion standing in my name appointed? I ask permission to amend the resolution The PRESIDENT: I would ask the by substituting the word "December" for hon. Member to give me a little time. I the word "June" in the last line. This think in my opening remarks I said that Council is comprised of 14 Elected the matter, in my opinion, called for close Members, 7 Nominated Members, 3 study and thought, and I am certainly Official Members, with the Governor as a 1,399 Mo�ion - 25 AUGUST, 1948. Wholly Elected Council. 1,400

President. In dealing with the motion it In 1928 there was a change of the will be necessary for me to make certain Constitution which gave the Government references to the Nominated Members as an "official" majority. The Legislative w .. well as, perhaps, the Official Members, but Council as then constituted consisted of I desire that those Members should not the Governor a� President, 10 Official regard such references as personal to them. Members, 5 Nominated Unofficial I regret that the hon. Member for Berbice Members, and 14 Elected Members. In River (Mr. Ferreira) is not present. He effect there was a Government majority has. been chosen to represent this Council of 15-10 Official and 5 Nominated at the meeting of the Empire Parlia­ Members-as against 14 Elected Members. mentary Association at which constitu­ This change was the result of the visit tional development in the various colonies the Snell Commission which recommended will be discussed. I sincerely hope he that Government should have greater will make a study of the subject so as control of the finances of the Colony in to be conversant with it when he goes to order to pull the country out of the rut England. In order to do justice to the into which it had fallen as a result of the motion it is necessary fer me to go a economic depression. The time came when little into the constitutional history of the we asked that the Official Members should Colony to show that the present form of be withdrawn from the Council, with the Government we have represents. no pro­ exception of the three principal Office:-s gress at all. After the annexation of this -the Colonial Seci,etary, the Attorney­ Colony by the British from the Dutch General and the Colonial Treasurer. The there was the House of Kiezers who ober Official Members were removed, but governed the three Colonies-Demerara, the Nominated Unofficial Members were Berbice and Essequibo-w.hich were increased from five to seven. joined together to form the Colony of British Guiana. I do not say that the time has come Mr. ROTH: That is quite incorrect. when we should wipe out the r->ntire The College of Kiezers was a body which Official Section of the Council. The three elected Members of the Council. The Official Members should remain for a country was never governed by the period as the Royal Commission has sug­ College of Kiezers. gested, but what I do say-and it is Mr. LEE : I do not know whether my recommended by the Royal Commission friend can give me a quotation on that, -is that a Committee should be but on the abolition of the House of appointed to go into the question of the Kiezers a Court of Policy and a Combined withdrawal of the Nominated Members Court were established in this Colony. and the putting of Elected Members in The Court of Policy comprised the their places. Although the question was Colonial Secretary, the Attorney-General, not included in the terms of reference of the Immigration Agent General, the the Franchise Commission, Dr. Singh, Mr. Receiver General, and three other persons Jacob, Mr. Gajraj and myself obtained holding public office, with the Governor the views of the people on the subject at as President, and eight Elected Members. variou: places in the Colony, and we refer There were therefore an equal number of to it in our Minority Report on page 24, Elected and Official Members in the Court on which we make the following of Policy which dealt with legislation. observations in par. 84 : The comprised the Members of the Court of Policy and· six "Paragraph 84. We desire to amend Elected Financial Representatives, which this paragraph by recommending that although the decision was reached to gave the people's representatives a confine our recc1:nmenda\ions as to the majority of 14 to 8. It is for that ;:eason sufficie:ncv of the present boundaries that it has been said from time to time and were not to include the manner in that the political constitution of the which any such extension or restriction Colony has deteriorated, inasmuch as in of the boundaries, evidence was adduced by several representative organisations the Combined Court the elected repre­ to the effect that the 14 Electoral Dis­ sentatives of the people held control of tricts should be re distributed to allow I the purse strings of the Colony. of 24 Elected Members as follows:- 1,401 Motion - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wholly Elected CounciL. 1,402

Population I Voters Proposed dis- 1939. 1941142. tribution of -- Seats. No. 1 Eastern Berbice .. 54,779 930 3 " 2 New Amsterdam 9,739 527 1 " 3 Berbice River 5,299 153 } 3 4 Western Berbice 14,506 566 I 5 Eastern Demerara 36,000 1,120 4 6 Central Demerara 36,185 766 r 7 Geoi;getown North l 652 8 Georgetown Central f 68,818 1,718 4 9 Georgetown South 982 } l.Q Demerara River 28,136 920 2 11 Demerara-Essequibo 27.849 710 2 12 Essequibo River 26:519 801 2 13 Western Essequibo 25,750 500 2 14 N.W. District 7,657 78 i1. 341,237 10,423 24

Representations were made to the would look after their interests. I submit Commission that after 1945 the 7 Nom­ that it is not necessary to have Nominated inated Representatives should be replaced Members at all, and there is nothing to by 7 Elected Representatives, and after prevent the present Nominated Members 1950 (one election period) the 3 Official frcm seeking election at the next General Members should be also replaced by 3 Election. Elected Representatives." With regard to the three Official As you are aware, Sir, the activities Member$ of the Council, they have been of the Bauxite Co. in the Berbice River, useful in directing the policy of Govern­ and the development of the timber indus­ ment, but the time will come when try have increased the population and the Elected Members would be qualified to industrial activities in that district. It take their places. I am not saying that was therefore suggested that the Berbice that time is tomorrow, but that we should River and the Western Berbice divisions move a step forward, and the first step should be re-arranged so as to have three I suggest is the abolition of Nominated representatives between them. It was Members. It is claimed that nomination also suggested that three seats should be of Members of the Council gives the right allotted to Eastern Berbice which has the of representation of certain interests and largest number of voters. In the case of minority sections in this Colony. In every Eastern Demerara and Central Demerara part of the world there ar� minority sec­ it was suggested that there should be four tions and financial interests, and as such seats between them, and a similar number have the right to go to the Electorate. of seats distributed between Georgetown' Do you think that any right-thinking North, Georgetown Central and George­ persons would permit their interests, ,I town South, and two seats each for Dem­ which are always inimical to that of the erara River, Demerara-Essequibo, Esse­ majority, to be destroyed by the Elected quibo River and Western Essequibo. Members of this Council? I do not think that has ever occurred. But I desire to Why shouldn't there be more Elected point out to you, Sir, and Members of this Members in this Council? We feel that Council that thii. is a Crown Colony and the Nominated Members should give place as such under the law you, Sir, have the to Elected Members. If it is argued that right at all times if you do not agree with Georgetown being the centre of our com­ the policy that is advocated in this Coun­ mercial activities, the commercial com­ cil, to refer it to the Secretary of State munity should be represented in this for the Colonies for decision. You further Council, I say that the clerks in the stores, have the right to dissolve this Council and the residents in the City, the ratepayers let the electorate decide on the issue. I of the City would see to it that they were say that, because I feel that action will represented at all times by persons who not be taken in a hasty manner. But let 1,403 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948. Wholly Elected Council. 1,404

us assume for argument's sake that the of this Council. It is a matter not of to­ masses have a majority in this Council morrow but of the future. Constitutional and those Members seek to do all sorts development is not obtained in a minute of things not in keeping with the policy or a day. You must take a step forward of Government, Your Excellency has the at a time, and that is where I am respect­ right to dissolve that Council. fully submitting if a Committee is appointed evidence should be taken, and But let us see whether minority inter­ it should go throughout the Colony. Each ests cannot. be given some voice in the Elected Member of the Council can then· administration of this government. You go to his district and explain .what it is have, Sir, the right of nomination to your all about before the Committee goes Executive Council and you will find there. That is why I have always ad­ that in 1928 the Executive Council vocated that Members should be remuner­ comprised the Governor, two ex-officio ated so lthat they could do such Members - the Colonial Secretary and things. The Royal Commission has the Attorney-General - two other Official impressed upon Government that Members and three Nominated Unofficial it is an obligation on Govern- Members. While there were eight mem­ ment that all matters of public interest bers that number was not limited by be broadcast to the public to the fullest Letters Patent and might be increased at extent and .also w·nat is Government's the King's pleasure. But in 1943 there policy. It is the duty of every Elected were in the Executive Council - yourself Member of this Council as well as Gov­ two ex-officio Members (the Colonial ernment through its District Commission­ Secretary and the Attorney General), four ers, who, w;1en they were appointed it is other Officials, who were the Heads of said, were to be the father of their dis­ important Government Departments and tricts, to direct the attention of the people usually included the Colonial Treasurer, to the policy of Government in respect of and five Unofficial Members chosen from every matter that appertains to the dis­ the Legislative Council (three Elected and tricts so that they ran appreciate and two Nominated). So Your Excellency understand the policy o� the Government f would see that there you had the right to of the Colony. That is why I say the nominate to the Executive Council. Elected Members of this Council have that duty to perform, to go to each nook and I The PRESIDENT: They were all corner of their districts and inform the Members of the Legislative Council! people as to what is req,1ired of them. Therefore when the Committee visits the Mr. LEE: They were all Members of districts the people will be in a position the Legislative Council, but what I am lo give evidence and to decide w:1ether thinking is that if you were thinking of hey would like the abolition of Nom­ the right of the minority or financial t inated Membership of the Council and, as interests to have a voice in the admini�­ time goes on, the abolition of Official tration of the government, it does not say Members and later the abolition of nom-• that Your Excellency must ncminate ination to the Executive Council. Members of this Council to your Execu­ tive Council. This present constitution only limits the number to seven, I think, We are leadin.(( towards self-govern­ but it does not say all should be chosen ment and, therefore, we must take that from the Legislative Council. But Your step forward - that step which gives the Excellency's predecessor had deemed it ri,e;ht of the people to decide the policy advisable to choose the members from of government. How can we do that when this Council. But if at all we are going we nave here 14 Elected Members, 7 to wipe out Nominated Members from Nominated Members and an official sec­ this Council, you would have the right as tion of three Members, with five Mem­ time goes on - and I feel sure Members bers from the Elected and Nominated of this Council will not object to it - to group on the Executive Council? I do not nominate representatives of minority mean to imply that those Members on the interests until nomination is wiped out Executive Council arc not free, but that altogether and the Executive Council is nomination carries with it in the minds chosen entirely from the Elected Members of the people, from their way of thinking, 1,405 Motion - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wholly Elected Council. 1,406

;;n obligation to follow the policy of Gov- have that voice that cries· out for self- ernment and to adhere to it whether it be government. to their detriment or not. There is no doubt that we need T;1e PRESIDENT: The hon. Member development, and it is there to be had if is incorrect. To give any impression of only we understand what we want and that kind is quite wrong . He is a Mem­ ask for it from you. Many of the people ber of the Executive Council and must think that ncmination is good for the know that is not so. He has perfect free­ Colony, but I can tell you, Sir, that politi­ dom to come to this Council with any cal circles who are cognisant of political matter he does not agree with in Execu­ reform do not agree that there should be tive Council - he as well as every other nomination in the Legislative and Execu­ Member of this Council who is on the tive Councils where the people's voices Executive Council. I do not want ,;uch are to be heard. They do not agree with an idea to get abroad and, if the people it, because they feel that nomination does believe that sort of thing, it is the duty not reflect the voice of the people. In of the Members to put them right. prnctical politics nomination of a particu­ lar section does not occur in any British Mr. LEE: I know it is so, as Your Colony save and except those which are Excellency has said, but it is my duty to now being deveioped, such as the African call Government's attention to certain Colonies. We have passed that stage, .I things. I agree that I have all the free­ respectfully submit, and that can be dom, because I have time and again ex­ proved and will be proved if a Commis­ pressed my opinion freely and conscien­ sion is appointed by Your Excellency tiously on the Executive Council and Your with the approval of this Council with as Excellency has listened to me quite at­ wide terms of reference as possisble to tentively. But what I am saying is that enquire into the question of the change of if the Elected Members go into the dis­ this Colony's Constitution. I therefore tricts and tell the people how it would respectfully submit this motion to Your lead to self-government and that we Excellency and Members of this Council. would like the election of Members for the Executive Council where there would Mr. WIGHT: I am rising to second then be the voice of the people, it would the motion for discussion, but before greatly assist. That is why I am trying to doing so I propose to suggest an amend­ impress upon you that if the Commission ment to the hon. Member who, I have no is appointed it should be given such terms doubt, appreciates the fact that one of the of reference as to obtain the feel­ pre.mises of the motion refers to a par­ ings of the people and report accordingly ticular phase which has received the veto to you as Head of this Government. That of this Council. Therefore, that being so, report when printed can be brought up he is unable to put that premise as it is. again for changes to be made if so desired. I refer to the fact that the second premise I feel it will be a step towards that is based on the ground that there should goal which we are all fighting for - be an Elected Legislative Council, Nom­ political advancement towards self-gov­ inated Members should go and there ernment. We find it difficult time and should be universal adult suffrage. again, when we come to this Council, in I submit he is not entitled so to do. respect of our representation. By the Rules of this Council Elected Members The PRESIDENT: I think the hon. cannot move any expenditure of money. Member is correct. It is based on univer­ I do not say Government will not listen sal adult suffrage and should be deleted to our representation, but if we are going in view of what has passed in this towards the goal of self-government the Council. little power given us should be extended. I feel if a Commission is appointed ta go Mr. WIGHT: I am going to make a into this question and report before suggestion. Perhaps he will agree with December, 1948. there would be that me when he hears what I propose, and political advancement equalling that of the amendment of his motion may be our sister Colonies, and as such we would acceptable to him and will, I feel sure,

__,__ _ j :w:-

1,407 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948. Wholly Elected Couricil. 1,408 receive the support, unanimous I hope, of hon. Member would appreciate that he the Council, and thereby the time of the was suggesting that hon. Members of this Council will be saved and we will have Council might be demented. He knows that the opportunity to proceed to the other by the Rules of Debate he is not entitled- matters on the Order Paper earlier. With to suggest that. The position is-in order your permission, Sir, I would like to move to save any further debate I feel sure hon. this amendment that the first premise be Members will agree-there is need for deleted entirely and the second be recast. reform, but there is no need to hurry that In other words that the motion be deleted reform. It would need some consideration. and recast to read: as to what the body should be which would take the place of the present "Whereas a reform of the Legisla­ Legislative Council. If we are to abandon tive Council as at present constituted the Nominated seats, as the hon. Mover is desirable; suggests, then it would becon1e necessary Be it resolved that His Excellency to have a dual Chamber or assembly such the Governor be requested to appoint a Commission or Committee to consider as. the old Court of Policy and Combined whether there should be a reform of Court. In the old days it had a consider­ the Legislative Council as at present able amount of legislative power and was col}stituted and, if so, what form or really in effect one of the most progres­ manner suc;1 reform should take." sive of the Constitutional assemblies in these parts. We lost that in 1928, hon. The substance of the amendment is Members would only too well remember. that the first premise is deleted and the With those few words I formally move second premise and the resolve clause the amendment I suggested and, I hope, recast. The substance of the motion is of the hon. Member will see fit to accept course unaltered. The motion is really that for the purpose of having a Commission or Committee, and the amendment is also Mr. LEE: Would the hon. Member reqrn,sting a similar act. If that is agreed give a limited period to the reform? upon by the Council, I would suggest that, perhaps, the same Committee or Com­ The PRESIDENT: Hon. Members mission to be appointed by Your Excel­ lency with terms based on the first motion should pause before imposing any such as whether there should be universal limitations. If we are going to limit the to Committee to two or three months, the adult suffrage or not might also consider effect would work both ways. It may this particular question. well do harm to the Colony as well as I may say that I support the view that good. We must not be too precipitate in there should be some form of constitu­ these matters. Matters of vital importance tional reform as indicated at the begin­ to the Colony require considered thought, ning of the Council. I had intimated, not only by this Council, but also by the when the question of Federation was public. To try and rush them through, I being discussed, that I thought there is think, is unfair to · any Commission that some need for a change in our Constitu­ may be appointed to deal with them and tion. Whether we should rush into the unfair to everybody else. I hope the hon. form as suggested by the hon. Member-a Member will not press for that. total axing of all Nominated Mambers­ or whether we should retain a dual house Mr. LEE: Your Excellency, why I -two bodies - or what form of Con­ am asking that is, that from recent reports stitution in the progress of development Trinidad may be granted a change of Con­ should be made, the Committee would stitution as early as possible. I received decide. I did not like to take the hon. a letter only last week from Dr. Solomon Mover of the motion seriously when in who is an Elected Member of the Legis­ the previous debate on universal adult lative Council and went to England to suffrage. if I heard him correctly, he sug­ present the people's case. He will be gested that the person who moved a returning soon to Trinidad and there is a motion to the effect that there should be possibility of the Constitution of that a literacy test in English had taken leave Colony being changed. What I am think­ f' of bis senses, because I quite realise the ing is, if the Commission to be appointed ' 1,409 Motion - LEGISLATIVE CouNcn.. Wholly Elected Council. 1,410

can do its work and send in its report adult suffrage. As we all know it was early the Imperial Government may con­ by a very narrow 1nargin - one vote - sider ours at the same time with Trini­ that it was passed. It was not due to dad's. I do not say it is not an important the composition of that body, as the question. What I am thinking is that as recommendation had to go to the .Legis­ events are moving forward that side, we lative Council. should not delay. But if Your Excellency, as Head of this Government, thinks that Mr. DEBIDIN: We can play cricket we should not limit the time within which on this point. My hon. friend can bowl the Commission should report, I would and I will bat. It is clear that the Secre­ certainly withdraw that part of my tary of State for the Colonies did not motion and accept the amended motion disturb the findings of the Franchise Com­ 2s the original motion. mittees which had been confirmed by their respective Legislatures. That is Dr. NICHOLSON: I beg to support clear and cannot be refuted. I know that the amendment to the motion. We all feel as far as British Guiana is concerned our that there is some need for reform, but Committee's report had been discussed, we also feel there must be time to con­ and His Excellency the Governor at the sider the steps to be taken very carefully. time paid a visit to the Secretary of State I will not prolong the debate. I support for the Colonies and discussed the matter the amendment. with him. Nothing was changed in the original report as submitted to the Legis­ Mr. DEBIDIN: Sir, I notice there is lative Council for discuSfiion. The point an inclination on the part of the hon. remains that there is in every Colony, Member for Essequibo River to withdraw as there is in British Guiana, always a his motion in favour of the amendment. divergence of opinion, and that is inevit­ I will advise him to do so, because I feel able. And because that is so, I am merely that this Council will support the very making the point that the greatest care crisp and all-embracing amendment which be taken and, I have no doubt, Sir, that has been moved by the hon. Member for you will, when the time com1os, satisfy all Western Essequibo. I would like to say, concerned with the composition or per­ however, that both the motion and the sonnel of the Committee that is appointed. amendment have given rise to some very important iosues, and I would just like The PRESIDENT: That will be a to touch on one or two J•oints. The first difficult task! (Laughter). is this: I would enjoin u9on Government !hat in the appointment of a Commission Mr. DEBIDIN: I quite agree it will be the greatest care be taken. I have no a difficult task, and I know, Sir, that you doubt that will be done, because I have will make a success of that difficult task. 111 the past from experience seen that a The next point that I would like to refer government gets a constitution according to is the one touching upon the recital of to the Committee that is appointed. If the motion proper. the Commission which h,.d been appointed to examine the question of the franchise Mr. LEE: To a point of corn·ction! in 1941 had been otherwise com_posed, this I think I have accepted the amendment. Colony might J-.ave enjoyed universal adult suffrage. Trinidad has got universal adult suffrage particularly becam-e 0£ the Mr. DEBIDIN: That is my mistake ! composition of its Franchise Committee. I would like to deal with the question of the possible change of the Constitution. The COLONIAL TREASURER: I do The hon. Member for Western EssEquibo not think hon. Members sho'.lld make has referred to the days of the Combined statements .like that. It is true they go Court, but now we are all thinking of the dc;v.rnin Hansard as their own statements, federation of the Caribbean Colonies pos­ but these things are printed in our news­ sibly with British Guiana, so that our papers. That is not a correct statement minds must be turned towards a better -the composition of the Franchise Com­ form of g•overnment. The very id(a of :11ittce ':aused Trinidgd to ge� uni'.:ersal federation seems to suggest constitut:onal -, 1i-•

1,411 Moti.on - 25 AUGUST, 1948. Wholly Elected Council. 1,412

· progress in the Colonies concerned, but Council states that he fears capitalists so far as British Guiana is concerned I would not invest their monev in this would urge very strongly that there country if illiterates are allowed to exer­ should be no federation unless we obtain cise the vote - something which he self-government, and unless the Colonies regards as a retrogade sten - I think that with which we federate are self-govern­ is an unfortunate state;nent. . To my ing. I claim that such a view would be mind, that statement seems to imply th;t supported not only by labour interests but if scme other group who are more literate also by legal authorities. In all the were in he majority it would have made statute books and the legal authorities, no difference, but if ·people now con­ there is the expression of opinion that in cerned are granted tbe right to exercise a federation the states of the union must the vote it would not mean th<'.t illiterates be self-determining and, therefore, before only would be voting for the reform of we think of federation we must exercise the Constitution. When it comes to the our minds in the direction of self-govern­ question of the present Constitution of ment. I am afraid, however, that self­ this Council we should ask ourselves government for British Guiana will have whether we can carry on our own affairs to depend on certain very important without the help of the Imperial Govern­ factors, and that is wby I told the hon. ment. In other words, it is being sug­ Member when he �!1oke to me, that I was gested that if a certain section of the not prepared to second this motion - community can put a majority in this because I am urging the abolition of Council it would be all right, but if th,� Nominated seats which are referred to in reverse happens it would not receive the the recital. satisfaction of everyone. I am saying in all sincerity, however, that hon. Members I want to say that if we are to obt,;,in who comprise this Council should not fail self-government in this Colony one of the to realise that we are one in purpose here most important prerequisites is a com­ and in eve1·y other respect. We should not plete understanding among the various come here to serve the needs of any par­ groups and sections in the community so ticular group, but as representativeo to that we can attain a very high standard serve the interests of the entire Colony, of unity and brotherhood. Unless we and until that state of unity exists I am reach a very high pinnacle in this respect afraid we should not discuss the question I think it would be dangerous to enter of a higher Constitution. Some hon. upon the task of achieving self-govern­ Members might be surprised to hear me ment. We must not be mere ideologists say that, but I will add that we cannot and confine ourselves to the realms of suck the cane at both ends and be satisfied fancy; we must be practical, and unless if the other fellow hasn't got any. the various groups in the Colony are pre­ pared to unite and act as one - not only Reference has been made to the 1928 in things social and econcmic but also in Constitution but it is useless to go back things political - we should not venture to it except for the sake of comparison, to think about achieving self-government. since one should not cry over spilt milk. That is why I am glad to support the There can be no question about it that we amendment that we should discuss this bartered away our rights when we matter soon for a change of the Constitu­ accepted what is commonly known as tion. I feel that consideration of the Crown Colony Government in 1928. Under question is long overdue, and that we the previous Constitution the Colony was have every chance of success, provided we in a position to make progres� in the achieve unity of purpose among ourselves. conduct of its affairs, but when the new Constitution came into being the Ele::ted I was completely staggered by t'.'le Members were put in the minority, and fact that this Council, yesterday, hesitated it was only through an amendment pro­ to accept the ,principle of universal adult vided in 1943 that the Elected Members suffrage at this stage of the Colony's con­ came into the majority. That resulted stitutional life. It has always been said fr.om the fact that the 10 Official Members that the people of this Colony are not yet were withdrawn, except for the 3 ex-officio ripe for an improved form of Goveenment, Members who are here now. Therefore, and when one hon. Member of this seven seats we-re rendered vacant by the 1,413 1,414 Motion - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wholly Elected Council. withdrawal of 7 Official Members and the meeting after public meeting to pass recommendation was that those seats be resolutions asking Government why the filled by persons nominated to represent report was not published at all. I feel various sections or interests in the com­ that if we are to have any change of munity. the Constitution there must be accelera­ tion not only as regards. the appointment Mr. LEE: To a point of correction: of the Commission but also as regards the There were already 5 Nominated Mem­ submission of its report so that we should bers when the 7 Official Members were have a change of tile Constitution before withdrawn. the life of the present Council is ended. In other words, the Commission should. be Mr. DEBIDIN: My hon. friend mis­ asked to consider the matter as being understood me. I said that seven seats one of some urgency. were rendered vacant by the amendment to the Constitution in 1943. If we are to There is one: other point I desire follow the recommendations of the Royal to make as I anticipate that the Commission - that those seats should·be motion will be carried: I feel that filled by Nominated Members - we would this very Commission can examine the find that we have lost five seats, because question of the franchise also, and if it is there are only 7 Nominated Members now. appointed early to e·mbark on both In other words, i�stead of filling the 7 questions I think the status of this Council seats rendered vacant by the amendment would be considerably improved ,i.s a to the Constitution in 1943 Government result. I have very great pleasure in have only filled two of them. The supporting the motion as it stands. amending Ordinance provided for the addition of two Nominated seats whereas Mr. CARTER : I rise to support the there should have been seven additional motion which has been moved, together seats. I am going to suggest that those with the amendment. Although it five seats should be filled by Elected appears that there is no opposition to Members making a total of 19 seats for this motion, yet I feel that Members of Elected Members in this Council. I make the Council can have their views recorded that suggestion as a possible line of so tiat when the Commission is appointed thought for the Committee which I hope the members would know what are the will be appointed to consider this matter. views of the people as expressed by their At present there are 14 Elected Members. representatives in this. Council. I think as against 7 Nominated and 3 Official it is a very good thing that both adult Members, so that if all the Nominated suffrage and self-government should be and the Official Members vote together it discussed almost simultaneously, because would require only 2 Members from the in these two questions we find expressions ' of the highest aspirations of progressive Elected bloc to go over to the other side in order to create an Elected people. The motion as it stands ,· and as rninortiy, since the President has amended, is divided into two parts, one a casting vote which he can use in favour dealing with the question of· nominated of the side on which the Official Members seats and be other with the question of are. Therefore, those five lost seats self-government. The majority of the resulting from the 1943 amendment !:hould previous speakers have stressed the need be added to the Elected bloc to make it for the abolition of nominated seats ; I ' much stronger. intend to stress more the desire which I believe the people in this country have f My hon. friend has been speaking for self-government. I do not propose about a time limit for the production of for a· mGment to travel into a graveyard the Commission's report, and after having amid the tombstones of bygone Constitu­ heard what Your Excellency has said I tions and Councils. I would like to say, would like to say that we have had some however, that British statesmen ha� in very unfortunate experiences as regards the past again and again expressed the such reports, especially as regards the view that the goal of Colonial Govern­ report of the Franchise Commission. We ments wa� that of self.determination. have had the necessity of calling public They have pointed with pride to the self-

� 1,415 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948. Wholly Elected Council. 1,416

governing Dominions as examples of Brit­ On the que,:t on of Nominated seats ish achievements in the field of gov2rn_­ I express the view of my constituency ment, and these declarations of policy when I say that the time has come when have become more and more insistent, and Nominated seats must go. Like the mover even moreso recently with the advent of of the motion, I do not mean to cast any a Labour Government in Great Britain. aspersion on the present Nominateci Members, for whom I have the greatest Leaders of Colonial peoples them­ respect, and I feel that among them there selves have expressed the desire for self­ are many who, if they seek election at the government in various Colonies. They polls, would be successful candidates. I have not been ambiguous or inarticulate feel they should cor,oe out and face the in this fundamental of Colonial policy, so electorate - they should mix with foe that it appears to me that the question dust of the hustings and seek the suffrage today is not so much whether the Colonies of the people. With those -remarks, Sir, should be self-governing but when the � beg to support the motion. Colonies should become self-governing. I do hope that is the main isssue which any Dr. JAGAN: I feel, like the hon. Commission appointed is going to deter­ Member who has just taken his seat, that mine. So far as British Guiana is con­ in this very important issue the Members cerned, I think the time has come when of f;1is Council should express their views we must throw aside the apron strings of so that the Commission, if appointed, a mother who, however benevolent, con­ would have the opportunity of seeing tinues to dominate us and to chill our what bey are. I was at a -loss, really, to aspirations. We find that being a Colony follow the hon. Member for Eastern e e our economic set-up is g ar d to meet the Demerara when he seemed to suggest that needs of the Mother Country. I feel that British Guiana was ripe and then, in the the only test-the only yardstick-that same breath, that British Guiana was not can be applied in determining whether or ripe for self-government. not a country should be self-governing, is the insistence of the people for self­ government, and the presence of Officials Mr. DEBIDIN: The hon. Member did capable of guiding the destiny of the not 11nderstand my argument. country. Dr. JAGAN: The hon. Member's PRESIDENT: I do not want the The reason for saying that British Guiana was hon. Member to give the impression that not ripe for self-government was that if the whole economy of British Guiana is this Council vofed against adult suffrage geared to meet the needs of Great Britain. it was not competent to vote on the issue That is another way of suggesting of self-government. I would not like to exploitation. It is far from the truth-it cast any ai;persion on the Members of is absolutely untrue-and if the hon. this Council, but it cannot be disputed Member does mean that, then I say it that thi� Council is not truly representa­ simply is not true. tive of the people of the entire Colony, Mr. CARTER: What I do meo.:., ':::·. since we have been elected by only one­ is that in this Colony we produce very third of their number. many products all the time and yet we , find that there is no great enthusiasm as Mr. WIGHT : To a point of order! It a rule to industJ:ialise the country, with is not proper for the hon. Member to say the result that we have to continue to that we are not representative of the import manufactured goods from abroad people. We have been elected, and it is and continue to be primary producers. In all very well for the hon. Member to say any event, Sir, I feel it is time th.at we in he does not want to cast aspersions but this Colony assume our full responsibility at the mm"! time, that is exactly what he because, if we continue to accept Colonial is doing. We. the Elected Members, have status, I feet that the people who govern­ been elected as representatives of the i us might begin to feel they have some various constituencies, and the hon. Mem­ ) divine right and peculiar ability to govern ber himself has been elected by only one­ t other people. third uf the people of his constituency. ' 1,417 1,418 Motion - LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Wholly Elected CounciL. Dr. JAGAN: That is the point I am this Council. This Council should repre­ ..trying to make; the hon. Member has sent British Guiana as a whole. If we are proved my point. Hi,, .;aid that I was to have proportionate_ representation let elected by one-third of the people in my us have it, and let Members say that they constituency, and if the other Elected represent 50 per cent. or more of their Members have been elected by one-third constituents. Then it cannot be said that also - or even four-fifths - can he say t'ilis Council represents certain interests that we are truly representative of the only, or is not truly representative of the people? We are not "truly representa­ people as a whole. tive", and those were my words. As far back as 1774 Edmund Burke, On the question of Nominated seats in addressing an electorate, said that I feel the time has arrived when this "Parliament is not a congress of ambas­ principle must be discontinued. I think sadors from different and hostile interests; that in the past the Government of this ....but parliament is a deliberative country accepted the principle of Nom• assembly of one nation, with one interest, inated Members because they may have that of the whole; where, not local pur­ felt that the people in British Guiana had poses, not local prejudices, ought to not yet reached a certain standard; that guide, but the general good, resulting is, they were not capable of going to the from the general reason of the whole." electorate, and if they were chosen by the electorate they were not capable of pre­ Certainly, democracy means that very senting the points of view of the elector­ thing, and we are hearing so much about ate. Another reason why they favoured democracy these days. It is not a question Ncminated Members in this Council was of a conflict of interests but, as the hon. to give representation to certain interests, Member for Eastern Demerara said, there but on both points I feel the time has must be unity of interests and unity of arrived when we can very well do wit'h­ action. and if we are to have that unity out nominated seats. The last general the only way is to listen to the voice of elections have shown that there were the majority. For that reason I feel that many candidates who had good qualifica­ all educated people who claim to be tions and would have been a credit to this democratic-minded will not hesitate to Council, had they offered themselves to support the principle of abolishing nom­ the electorate. I am sure that if they had inated seats. Modern democratic coun­ been elected they would have been tries have got rid of nominated seats, and a credit to this Council. So that it cannot I am sure the time has come when Britis'h be used any more as argument that we Guiana should do the same thing. The have not people in British Guiana who hon. Member for Essequibo River (Mr. are capable of giving service to the Lee), in moving the original motion, said country. he did not want to see the abolition of the thr�e Official Members in this Council. On the other point that nominations On the other hand the second part of his are made in order that certain interests, motion refers to the "attainment of com­ let us say minority interests, should have plete self-government in internal affairs representation, I also feel that the time within five years." has arrived when minority interests should submerge their feelings and submit Mr. LEE: To a point of correction. I to the majority rule. As the last speaker said that the three Official Members has said, if the Nominated Members were should remain for a :pedod, and later they appointed to represent certain interests should be succeeded by Elected Members. in this Council, and if those interests are to be preserved, they should by all means Dr. JAGAN: Nevertheless, the time go to the electorate and face the tape. It has come when the people s'hould be given is only a democratic principle that the an opportunity of self-determination; they pecple as a whole should determine foe must be allowed to say whom they want policies. for the Government to carry out, as their leaders to repres.ent them in this and if that principle is to be preserved Council. I definitely feel that on the there should be all Elected Members in question of nominated seats the Com- 1 .L. 1,419 Motion - 25 AUGUST, 1948 Wholly Elected CounciL 1,420

mittee to be appointed can do nothing else not more than two candidates should but recommend that nominated seats be contest a seat. abolished. Dr. JAGAN: I referred to the ques­ Dr. GONSALVES: I would have pre­ tion of proportionate representation. ferred to say nothing but simply vote on foe motion, but in view of the suggestio1: Dr. GONSALVES: I do not under­ of the hon. Member for Georgetown stand what the hon. Member is driving North (Dr. Nicholson) that we should ex­ at. He says. we are not representative of press our views so as to have them the people, but it 'ilas been brought out recorded for the benefit of the Com­ by one hon. Member that he was elected mission, I feel that I ought to say where by one-third of the voting strength of his I s.tand in this matter. I shall be very constituency. Be that as it may, he is brief, but at the outset I should say that the recognised representative of his con­ [ 'have never listened to such inconsis­ stituency. I take very strong exception tencies in all my life as I have just heard to the suggestion that I am not repre­ from my friend, the hon. Member for sentative of the people in m;v constituency, Eastern Demerara (Mr. Debidin). As because four candidates contested t'he seat regards this democratic principle which with me and I beat them severely. For the hon. Member has stressed so much and that reason there can be no other con­ so long, it is either that I do not under­ clusion than that I am the rightful repre­ stand the meaning of democracy, or he sentative of my constituency. I therefore has a new and distinct meaning of his do not understand just what my friend own for the word. Tile hon. Member is driving at. seemed to lay great stress on the point that the people do not have whom they The hon. Member for Georgetown want to represent them. I take very South (Mr. Carter) said it was not a strong objection to that remark. question of a change of government but that the Colony s'hould become self­ Mr. DEBIDIN: The hon. Member has governing. If that is the question then I a wrong impression. believe the point we are stre�sing in this argument will come about after and when The PRESIDENT: The hon. Member the Colony is ready for these constitu- is really referring to the last speaker. tional reforms. What I mean is that it goes without saying that if we are to get 1- Dr. GONSALVES: I am referring to a change of government then perhaps t'.'le the hon. Member for Central Demerara Legislative Council as constituted would (Dr. Jagan), who said that the people do be changed to suit the form of government not have whom they want to represent which we would have. For that reason .I them. hardly see the need for stressing it. There is only one thing that perhaps I do not Dr. JAGAN: I did not say that. The understand. It seems to me that some of hon. Member has misconstrued what I us are approaching t'he question through said. the back door, and others though the window. I have already expressed my . , The PRESIDENT: I understood the views on the question of self-government,. ,>-- .. hon. Member to say that this Council was and I believe it is the final striving of all not truly representative. progressive people,

Dr. GONSALVES: If this Council is On the question of nominated seats I not truly representative then it is logical think we should be fair. As Elected to say that I am not representative of my Members represent various constituencies constituency. I tnerefore must ask: how I see no reason why other sections of the are we to get about it? There is only one community should not be given repre­ way for the hon. Member to get 51 per sentation in this Council. I do not think cent. of the votes of the people before I am saying anything wrong in saying that he can consider himself representative of If we are all working towards self-govern­ the views of the majority, and that is that ment the big issue is whether we should ,421 - 1,422 Motion LEGISLATIVE CoUNcn,. Wholly Elected Council. have self-government before federation, am content to await the findings of the btlt I have already expressed my opinion Committee. When the Ccmmittee reports on that question, and a Committee is to be I shall have more to say in the matter. appointed to go into the whole question. I am in perfect agreement with the sug. The motion, as amended, was then put gestion of the hon. Member for Wes.tern and agreed to. Essequibo (MT. Wight) that the Committee to be appointed should consider the The Council was then adjourned until subjects raised in the two motions, and I 2 p.m. on Friday, 27th August.

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