COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
*** HEARING OF THE HOUSE CHILDREN AND YOUTH COMMITTEE ***
MAIN CAPITOL BUILDING B-31 MAIN CAPITOL HARRISBURG, PENNSYLVANIA
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 14, 2017 9:00 A.M.
BEFORE:
HONORABLE KATHARINE WATSON, MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN HONORABLE SCOTT CONKLIN, MINORITY CHAIRMAN HONORABLE MICHAEL CORR HONORABLE MATT DOWLING HONORABLE MARCIA HAHN HONORABLE BRETT MILLER HONORABLE DAN MOUL HONORABLE TOM MURT HONORABLE TEDD NESBIT HONORABLE JACK RADER HONORABLE GREG ROTHMAN HONORABLE RICK SACCONE HONORABLE TODD STEPHENS HONORABLE TARAH TOOHIL HONORABLE VANESSA BROWN HONORABLE PAMELA DeLISSIO HONORABLE MICHAEL DRISCOLL HONORABLE MAUREEN MADDEN HONORABLE JOANNA McCLINTON HONORABLE DAN MILLER HONORABLE MARK ROZZI HONORABLE JARED SOLOMON
Pennsylvania House of Representatives Commonwealth of Pennsylvania 2
1 BEFORE (continued):
2 COMMITTEE STAFF PRESENT:
3 GREGORY GRASA, Executive Director Children & Youth, 4 Republican Research
5 MEREDITH SCHULER, Legislative Administrative Assistant, 6 Republican Caucus
7 LEDA LIPTON, ESQ., Research Analyst 8 PHILIP FALVO, 9 Executive Director, Democratic Caucus
10 JAMES MOSER, Legislative Assistant 11 VALERIE WHITNEY, 12 Research Analyst
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1 I N D E X
2 TESTIFIERS
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4 NAME PAGE 5
6 BRIAN BORNMAN, ESQ., EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR 7 PCYA...... 12
8 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI...... 31 9
10 MRS. LOTTE POWELL...... 39
11 DEPUTY SECRETARY UTZ, 12 DEPARTMENT OF HUMAN SERVICES...... 57
13 DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS, 14 OCDEL...... 65
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17 SUBMITTED WRITTEN TESTIMONY
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19 (See submitted written testimony and handouts online.)
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
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3 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Good
4 morning to my colleagues, members of the
5 Children & Youth Committee. Good morning to
6 those of you in the audience. And indeed, some
7 of my colleagues are in the audience coming to
8 testify.
9 Indeed, this is the public hearing
10 convened by the House Children & Youth
11 Committee. I'm supposed to introduce myself. I
12 always feel stupid, but we will do that. All
13 right.
14 My name is Katharine Watson. I have the
15 very good fortune to have a job that I
16 particularly love, and that is being Chairman of
17 the House Children & Youth Committee, because
18 indeed, it lets me work in areas that I worked
19 in for years that I've always had an interest
20 in.
21 So I get to chair this meeting today,
22 which is good. I would remind you,
23 respectfully, would you please make sure that
24 your cell phones are turned -- I call it turn
25 them to stun. But in any event, make sure that 5
1 there are no sounds coming out. The meeting is
2 to be recorded.
3 We will do our housekeeping to begin
4 with. We've welcomed you. We're glad you're
5 here. And I would suggest to you we have a
6 topic of great importance to discuss.
7 But Meredith, would you please take the
8 roll first?
9 We'll do all of the important stuff,
10 too.
11 (Whereupon, the roll call was taken.)
12 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
13 Let's begin with Chairman Conklin.
14 Something to say, please.
15 MINORITY CHAIRMAN CONKLIN: Thank you,
16 Chairman Watson. I want to thank everyone for
17 coming here today. It's very important. I want
18 to thank Eddie Day Pashinski for bringing this
19 forward.
20 But for those watching and those in the
21 audience, if you see people come and go, and if
22 you saw some of the folks aren't here, it's a
23 very busy legislative schedule right now. So
24 you'll see many members coming in and out, not
25 because they weren't here or because they're not 6
1 interested or they lose interest, it's just the
2 fact that they have many voting meetings going
3 on and many members sit on up to five or seven
4 different committees that they're on.
5 So I want to thank everyone for being
6 here.
7 Lady Chairwoman, the floor is yours.
8 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Yes. Thank
9 you.
10 This morning, as I had stated, we're
11 going to continue the Committee's examination of
12 a growing family dynamic of grandparents who,
13 because of various life circumstances, are
14 raising their grandchildren. Currently, three
15 million children across the country now are
16 living with grandparents, and they are the
17 children's primary caregivers.
18 In Pennsylvania, back two years, but as
19 of 2015, there were an estimated 98,000
20 children, or about four percent of the children
21 in the Commonwealth, who were living with
22 grandparents who are their primary caregivers.
23 I would suggest to you that certainly in
24 light of the opioid epidemic and things that are
25 happening, that number has increased 7
1 dramatically. You could check with your own
2 Children & Youth agency and you would find that
3 to be true.
4 We've heard a lot of tragic stories
5 about grandparents who suddenly are thrust with
6 their grandchildren and they're going to have to
7 raise them because something has happened to
8 their own children and they can't do it or
9 they're just incapacitated, and they're, in some
10 cases, incarcerated and there's no opportunity
11 for them to participate in that child's growing
12 up.
13 Grandparents, what we know -- and I
14 would suggest to you that that number from 2015
15 was probably inaccurate to begin with because
16 grandparents, it seems, are very reluctant to
17 enter that formal child welfare system because
18 they don't just know that much about it and
19 they're of the belief that, you know, I can
20 manage things on my own, I don't take anything
21 from the government, or because they are so
22 afraid. They've heard stories, inaccurate, but
23 they've heard them, and they think they'll say,
24 oh, I'm too old, or something, and they'll take
25 the children away. 8
1 They just think -- and in a lot of
2 cases, they are very embarrassed. They are
3 embarrassed by the fact that somehow their child
4 failed at being a parent for whatever reason.
5 They are stepping in. They'll do that, but they
6 don't want lots of people to know about it. So
7 they don't seek out, which I'm sure you'll hear,
8 some things that are available to them through
9 their Children & Youth agency.
10 Instead, they often struggle,
11 particularly financially, with providing for the
12 grandchildren under their care. Sadly, too,
13 they lack legal standing to make basic decisions
14 for their grandchildren, such as officially make
15 a medical decision or enrolling the child in
16 school.
17 And yet, you will hear that for them to
18 go and see a lawyer, they don't have the kind of
19 money that that would take. And I would ask
20 each of you to think. I look around and think,
21 okay, some of you are getting sort of close to
22 that retirement thing. And I'm sure a few of
23 you are even grandparents.
24 Stop and think that if you're preparing
25 for that time -- and you think you've prepared 9
1 enough -- no one, not the best financial advisor
2 you could find, would ever suggest that you
3 should have money to raise a family again. It's
4 just a different time of life. And yet, many of
5 our folks across Pennsylvania are thrust into
6 that situation.
7 They are good people. They want to keep
8 their children with them -- their grandchildren
9 with them. They want to step up and do that.
10 And we have now seen recently studies that tell
11 us that children, regardless of how fine the
12 foster family is, children do best if they are
13 with a relative.
14 So the grandparent is stepping up
15 because their parents can't take care of them is
16 probably the best circumstance. And yet, it's
17 often the most difficult circumstance
18 financially.
19 Today, then, we are forced -- we are
20 fortunate -- it sounded like forced. We are
21 fortunate to have with us several individuals
22 who, by virtue of profession or personal
23 experience, can testify to the challenges facing
24 grandparents who are raising grandchildren.
25 Our Committee looks forward to learning 10
1 from the testimony of each of you. And I
2 certainly want to thank you for taking the time
3 to be here. Because remember, ladies and
4 gentlemen, we started at 9:00, but some of these
5 folks have traveled an hour or two hours. So
6 their day started a bit early to volunteer to be
7 here to talk to us.
8 On behalf of the Committee, we thank you
9 again. I have already introduced my
10 counterpart, Chairman Conklin. And he has made
11 some important remarks to remind you that people
12 will be coming in and out, but it doesn't mean
13 that we are not interested. In fact, I would
14 suggest to you that it's been an interest of
15 mine.
16 Golly, we had a hearing with the
17 Aging and Older Adult Services Committee -- I
18 see the executive director here -- probably a
19 good three years ago. Two to three? And the
20 phenomenon has only gotten bigger.
21 Then we were looking at a smaller
22 number, but we ought to really consider this.
23 Now, I would suggest to you, humbly, we have to
24 consider this and we have to do something about
25 it because these folks are doing the 11
1 Commonwealth, their neighbors and their families
2 a great service. We need to help them if we can
3 or at least get them to the right place where
4 they can choose help if it is available. Or
5 honestly, they can choose not to have it.
6 So to lead things off this morning, I
7 would like to welcome someone who has provided
8 informative testimony to this Committee on
9 several occasions in the past.
10 Mr. Brian Bornman is the Executive
11 Director of the Pennsylvania Children & Youth
12 Administrators, an affiliate of the County
13 Commissioners Association of Pennsylvania.
14 It is amazing, Mr. Bornman, that all
15 fits on a little card, but we are glad you are
16 here. We look forward to what you have to tell
17 us.
18 Please begin.
19 MR. BORNMAN: Thank you, Chairman
20 Watson, Chairman Conklin and members of this
21 honorable Committee.
22 I would like to take this opportunity to
23 thank you for having me here today and giving me
24 this opportunity to address you on what has been
25 correctly identified as a very important issue 12
1 here in Pennsylvania.
2 Just a little history about myself. I
3 am the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania
4 Children & Youth Administrators Association. We
5 represent all 67 of the Children & Youth
6 agencies throughout the State.
7 My history is I started as a caseworker
8 for a child welfare agency. I got a master's
9 degree and did child therapy for about a decade,
10 got my law degree and represented, privately
11 represented, a number of grandparents in custody
12 proceedings. I then became a solicitor
13 representing one of the county's Children &
14 Youth agencies for about a decade before coming
15 into this role. So I've kind of run the gamut
16 of the child welfare spectrum.
17 Some things I want to talk about today
18 are basically four main issues: I want to cover
19 the importance of the grandparents to the
20 familial stability of the family, and I think
21 that's largely been covered by
22 Representative Watson already; some challenges
23 when the grandparents are working with the child
24 welfare system because it does bring up some
25 very unique challenges and frustrations for 13
1 grandparents; the supports that are most
2 requested by grandparents; and some solutions
3 that some States have tried to address this
4 issue because this is certainly not a
5 Pennsylvania-only issue. This is a nationwide
6 issue.
7 I will point out this is a very awkward
8 room to testify in with the big pole here.
9 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: The one we
10 had before was a lot worse. This is considered
11 better.
12 MR. BORNMAN: This is the upgrade.
13 Okay.
14 As Mrs. Watson identified, grandparents
15 really have historically been the safety net for
16 families. Many times, they're the ones that are
17 the most stable in the family and are around to
18 be that last-ditch safety net before the
19 children hit the child welfare system. And as
20 such, they really do need the support to be able
21 to provide that role without bankrupting
22 themselves in the process or struggling
23 financially and physically and emotionally.
24 If you look at some of the research from
25 Generations United, which is one of the leaders 14
1 in this field, there really is a growing body of
2 research that shows that the health issues of
3 grandparents raising grandkids, it's certainly
4 not as easy to raise young children as you age.
5 And financially, it can be very devastating if
6 there's not that support provided for
7 grandparents.
8 Modern research in child welfare has
9 really focused on the importance of keeping
10 children with families. And more and more, that
11 research shows that, more so than we always
12 assumed, it's better emotionally for the kids to
13 stay with the family, but that physically, you
14 are seeing very detrimental effects from kids
15 raised in the child welfare system: increases in
16 heart attacks, increases in cancer rates.
17 A lot of seemingly unconnected medical
18 conditions are arising at much higher incidents
19 later in life due to their involvement in the
20 child welfare system. Anything we can do to
21 mitigate those concerns, by keeping kids with
22 family or in their biological family, is only
23 going to improve the situation. So I don't
24 think I can emphasize enough how important it is
25 to have that safety net of having grandparents 15
1 step in and raise the grandchildren.
2 As Mrs. Watson identified, it is really
3 important, or really impossible, to tell how
4 many grandparents are raising grandkids
5 nationwide. There is a recent bill introduced
6 by Susan Collins and Senator Casey to establish
7 a task force to look at this at the Federal
8 level, but they identify 2.5 million. I've
9 heard three million, but I think those are low
10 numbers.
11 You could go through and count all of
12 your custody orders that came out of either
13 Children & Youth cases, PFAs, custody court, but
14 most of these cases really are informal
15 custodial arrangements, either through a simple
16 signature on a guardianship agreement or just
17 the de facto living situation in the family.
18 And also, it's impossible to really
19 capture how many of those situations are
20 multi-generational families, in which the parent
21 may live in the home, but really the bulk of the
22 support and the parenting is coming from the
23 grandparent because the parent is young, is
24 going to college, or for whatever reason is not
25 available. 16
1 One of the -- financially, one of the
2 numbers that I've seen recently on the HHS
3 website, and in an article that was put out, was
4 between $23 and $39 billion a year is saved from
5 the county or the government because of
6 grandparents intervening and providing care for
7 those children. If all of those kids are
8 suddenly to be thrust upon the child welfare
9 system, we would be look at a very dramatic
10 increase in cost to child welfare nationwide.
11 One of the bright points is that
12 Pennsylvania is really doing a lot better in
13 terms of getting kids into Kinship Care. It was
14 something that was recognized a number of years
15 ago, as we like to say, kind of before it was
16 cool to do so.
17 We have really been focusing more on
18 getting kids into Kinship Care. I know this is
19 something that Cathy is going to talk about, so
20 I'm not going to belabor that point.
21 So what are some of the challenges to
22 grandparents when they're involved in the child
23 welfare system?
24 Basically, there are kind of two avenues
25 of support for grandparents. They can -- 17
1 financially, when you're looking at what can we
2 do to help support, there's the public
3 assistance, which has its own number of
4 challenges; and then there's the Children &
5 Youth avenue, in which the child welfare
6 agencies can help may for Kinship Care subsidies
7 and provide some additional supports and assure
8 that the kids get health insurance and things of
9 that nature, but it carries with it its own set
10 of challenges. And that is something that I
11 want to discuss at this point.
12 Probably one of the biggest challenges
13 in my experience with grandparents is really the
14 frustration in dealing with the agency. Despite
15 the fact that agencies try to be responsive to
16 families and understanding and accepting, they
17 are still bureaucracies. It is still a
18 challenge. It is still a big machine to deal
19 with.
20 We have rules and regulations, and it
21 can be very frustrating as a parent, a
22 grandparent dealing with the agencies in that
23 regard. And what I hear most often is, either
24 the agencies were too heavy handed in terms of
25 they didn't give the parents adequate 18
1 opportunities to get their lives turned around
2 so that they could keep their kids and that was
3 wrong; or that they were too lenient and gave
4 the parents too many opportunities when the
5 grandparents felt that they should not have been
6 given so many opportunities. So that is always
7 a source of frustration.
8 I've had many discussions over the years
9 with grandparents:
10 Why did you let it go so long;
11 Why did you pull the kids out of the
12 home so soon?
13 One of the biggest challenges with that
14 is, as with anything family-related, there are a
15 lot of protections built into the Juvenile Act,
16 and what you may know as a family structure
17 regarding drug use or someone's inability to
18 parent or mental health conditions, may be very
19 different than what I, as a solicitor, could go
20 into court and prove to a clear and convincing
21 legal standard.
22 So there is always that challenge in
23 terms of what the agency may kind of have a
24 feeling of in their gut versus what they can
25 actually prove and sustain in court. 19
1 There are the challenges of the court
2 process itself. Court can be very time
3 consuming. It involves a lot of time sitting in
4 a waiting room and waiting for your case to be
5 called. It involves a lot of time sitting,
6 perhaps with a lot to say and not necessarily
7 having that opportunity to just jump in in the
8 court process and add what you feel needs to be
9 said. So the court process itself can be very
10 frustrating.
11 Many times, family members, particularly
12 grandparents, feel very frustrated with having
13 to testify against those they love and care
14 about. If you know something as a family
15 member, you would be the one that would have to
16 testify in court about what you witnessed, what
17 you saw.
18 When you're talking about your own child
19 and having to testify about finding your child
20 with a needle in their arm or kids unsupervised,
21 that can be a very difficult thing for anyone,
22 even if it is in the best interest of the
23 grandkids.
24 Assuming you get through the whole
25 adjudicatory process and the kids are 20
1 adjudicated dependant and placed in custody,
2 there are all of the hoops then that you have to
3 jump through once you're identified as a
4 potential kinship caregiver. They're not
5 inconsequential.
6 There's a home study that needs to be
7 done before kids can be placed with you. You
8 can do an emergency caregiver for the first 60
9 days, but beyond that point, you really need to
10 basically be licensed as a foster home. That
11 involves looking at financial records. It
12 involves looking at your home and determining
13 whether your water is safe by having it tested
14 and all of the things that go along with a home
15 study to assure that kids are living in a safe
16 home, but it's very intrusive.
17 If you're somebody in your retirement
18 age, you may not necessarily want a caseworker
19 poking around your home several days a week and
20 asking you very personal questions about your
21 lifestyle and your finances and all of that. So
22 that can be very uncomfortable for a lot of
23 people.
24 There are also some limitations in terms
25 of if the children are placed in your home 21
1 through the custody of a child welfare agency,
2 there may be some limitations on what you can
3 and can't do with the kids in terms of how often
4 they may see the parents and where you can
5 travel with them.
6 With last year's passage of the
7 Reasonable and Prudent Parenting Standard,
8 things got a lot better in terms of transferring
9 a lot more of that authority to the caregiver to
10 allow them to make the day-to-day decisions for
11 kids in their care, but there are still a number
12 of limitations, just due to the legal structure
13 of the custodial arrangements.
14 If a child is placed in the home,
15 they're adjudicated dependent, they're placed in
16 your home, you jump through all of the hoops and
17 you have the home study and everything is good,
18 another pain point has always been the Adoption
19 and Safe Families Act.
20 So under the Federal Adoption and Safe
21 Families Act and Pennsylvania's enactment of
22 that, if a child has been in care 15 of the
23 preceding 22 months, there's an obligation for
24 the agency to file a termination of parental
25 rights to try to get them into a permanent home. 22
1 This concept of grandparents adopting their
2 grandkids can be a challenge for some people to
3 come to grips with.
4 As a grandparent, you want to be a
5 grandparent. You don't want to be a parent. In
6 my experience, almost without fail, the
7 grandparents I have spoken to wanted to be
8 grandparents. They wanted nothing more than
9 their kids to rise up to the challenge and be
10 able to step back into that parental role.
11 And then when the agency comes in and is
12 trying to force them or convince them that it's
13 in the best interest of the child to terminate
14 parental rights and adopt their grandchild so
15 now they're a parent, that the can be a lot to
16 deal with, and the frustration sometimes. Just
17 the emotional challenges, I don't think can be
18 understated. It's a very difficult situation.
19 There is a lot of embarrassment, shame,
20 frustration with seeing that your child was
21 unable to provide for your grandchildren and now
22 you're stepping into that parental role. So
23 oftentimes it takes a lot of work and some
24 counseling to get people through all of that to
25 accept that situation. The supports most 23
1 requested by grandparents really come down to
2 information, legal support, as Chairwoman Watson
3 noted, and financial support.
4 Whenever a grandparent has custody of a
5 child suddenly, not something they're planning
6 for, there are a lot of questions that come up,
7 such as, what are my rights; what can I do; what
8 can't I do? If the parent shows back up, can
9 they just take the child?
10 There are not a lot of really good
11 sources of information out there for
12 grandparents in that situation. So if the
13 agency is involved, if that's the route by which
14 a grandparent had the child come into their
15 custody, many of those questions can be answered
16 through the agency, but if it's an informal
17 custodial arrangement, there are not a lot of
18 people to ask those questions of.
19 And legally, you're not going to get a
20 lot of help from the legal aid societies. Most
21 counties will have some type of legal aid, but
22 in my experience, most of those have very
23 limiting rules in terms of who they represent.
24 And predominantly, that is parents. Generally,
25 indigent parents, if they're being sued for 24
1 custody, are who would qualify to be
2 represented.
3 Very rarely have I seen any of the legal
4 aid societies intervene to represent a
5 grandparent to pursue custody. So for legal
6 purposes, grandparents are really on their own.
7 And as correctly noted, we lawyers are very
8 expensive, so that can always be a challenge.
9 We talked briefly about the sources of
10 financial aid. And if pursuing custody through
11 child welfare, you will have access to the
12 kinship subsidy. I know Cathy is going to talk
13 about that, so I'm not really going to spend a
14 lot of time on that.
15 But the other avenue to seek support
16 financially is through the public benefits. So
17 grandparents may be eligible for CHIP for the
18 kids for their insurance or a child subsidy,
19 cash assistance. There are a number of programs
20 available, but one of the biggest roadblocks of
21 that is, as with anyone else, to pursue those
22 benefits, you have to be eligible. You have to
23 qualify.
24 It generally requires suing the parents
25 for child support. And again, it comes back to 25
1 that very difficult situation of if you need
2 support to raise your grandchildren, do you want
3 to sue your own child, which may result in them
4 ultimately being incarcerated for nonpayment of
5 support in the process. So it creates some very
6 difficult decisions and some difficult positions
7 that grandparents are put in because of the
8 nature of the benefits.
9 So what are some of the things that
10 other States have tried to do?
11 Like I said, this is not a
12 Pennsylvania-only issue. This is something
13 that's across the nation.
14 Some States have gone with a kinship
15 navigator program, which is really a statewide
16 program that acts as an information clearing
17 house. So for grandparents who find themselves
18 in a caretaking role for their grandchildren,
19 it's a support line where they can call and find
20 out where they can access certain things.
21 A lot comes up when you haven't raised a
22 child in 30 years. So if you suddenly have a
23 new baby in the house, you may need to find out
24 where do I get formula? I mean, what do I need
25 to do? 26
1 So it can provide resources for
2 parenting classes in your community or just
3 sources of information online, places where you
4 can get insurance for the kids, how to enroll
5 kids in school, how to make sure you get medical
6 rights for the kids. So a lot of those things
7 that come up, everyday questions that parents
8 have to struggle with, are the same things that
9 grandparents have to struggle with when they're
10 suddenly thrust into that caretaking role.
11 Some States, as well, have tried setting
12 up a fund, a statewide fund, to provide for
13 legal service funding for grandparents, as well.
14 I really don't have a lot of information on how
15 that's played out. I think the kinship
16 navigator programs have played out pretty well
17 and been well received when they've been
18 implemented, but I'm not sure about the -- I
19 haven't had a chance to find out a lot about the
20 funding for legal services, but that's certainly
21 an area that is a challenge for grandparents
22 seeking custody.
23 It's one thing to have a child placed in
24 your home if a parent says, I'm running off to
25 do whatever. You now have a child in your home, 27
1 but you don't really have any legal authority to
2 enroll that child in school, to seek medical
3 care. So that next step to get something more
4 formalized that will be accepted by the schools
5 and the physicians can be an expensive
6 proposition to get to that point.
7 So that is really where we're at in
8 Pennsylvania at this time. It can be
9 frustrating to deal with the child welfare
10 system, but that is probably your most stable
11 source of support financially, as well as being
12 able to quickly access services that the kids
13 may need.
14 The other avenue of seeking whatever
15 benefits may be available publicly carries with
16 it its own set of challenges, in that you
17 generally will have to sue your children for
18 child support in order to be able to access any
19 of those benefits. To the extent this Committee
20 is looking at different programs moving forward,
21 I would really encourage you to look closely at
22 the kinship navigator program. I think that has
23 a lot of promise to it, and perhaps some
24 combination of some funding of legal fees to
25 help support making those situations more 28
1 permanent in nature.
2 Once again, I want to thank you for the
3 opportunity to let me come here and talk today.
4 Hopefully I made some sense.
5 I want to thank this Committee for some
6 recent legislation sponsoring a resolution
7 recognizing Children & Youth caseworkers. They
8 really do work very hard to protect the kids of
9 Pennsylvania, and I appreciate that. I want to
10 thank them for all of their work.
11 Most of all, I want to thank the
12 grandparents of Pennsylvania for all of the hard
13 work that they're doing. I know it may be
14 incredibly frustrating and incredibly difficult
15 at the time you're dealing with it, but you
16 really are keeping kids safe and protecting
17 their emotional and physical well-being in the
18 long term.
19 I will be happy to field any questions
20 anyone may have.
21 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you,
22 Mr. Bornman.
23 And in light of that, could you stay?
24 Because what we'd like to do,
25 oftentimes, we get off on questions. This is a 29
1 really bright Committee, these folks, topnotch.
2 And we'll get off on that, and we won't get
3 through all of the testifiers.
4 So I would like to listen, and we would
5 listen to everybody, but ladies and gentlemen of
6 the Committee, if you would write your questions
7 down, and we're asking if indeed you would stay
8 for the hearing. Then we could -- plus, you
9 need to hear what somebody else says, and maybe
10 then, I don't know, we spark something between
11 the two of you.
12 MR. BORNMAN: Certainly.
13 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you
14 so much.
15 We were to hear this morning from
16 Rich Hughes, who is a very compelling
17 grandparent from Pen Argyl, Pennsylvania. I
18 believe, Representative Hahn, that's your
19 district, right?
20 REPRESENTATIVE HAHN: Yes.
21 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Sadly, he
22 was injured on the job. He suffered a back
23 injury, and his doctor has restricted him from
24 traveling. He can't drive, I guess, or actually
25 sit up in the car for that length of time. 30
1 So we were sorry for that because it was
2 compelling, but we will move to a very
3 compelling legislator who has been working in
4 this area, and interested in this area, for as
5 long as I can remember. And indeed, some would
6 say we have been partners in crime, which is
7 fine. We both accept that.
8 Representative Eddie Pashinski from
9 Luzerne County has shown a great interest and
10 understanding of, I'll call it the plight of
11 grandparents raising grandchildren. You heard
12 Mr. Bornman talk about, imagine, when you're
13 trying to get your child back from whatever, you
14 would have to sue your child in court in order
15 to get the money for raising the grandchildren.
16 You're not going to find folks who are
17 going to step up and do that because it
18 essentially burns that bridge. There's no way
19 back. So you have some other ideas. And
20 Representative Pashinski, we would like to hear
21 of your insight, your ideas, all of the above.
22 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: Well, good
23 morning. Thank you very much, Chairwoman
24 Watson. It's been a pleasure to work with you
25 on so many issues concerning children. 31
1 And I think it's noteworthy,
2 congratulations, it's a tremendous thing that
3 you've accomplished, you and your husband, your
4 50 year wedding anniversary. That's
5 outstanding.
6 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you.
7 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: And I mean
8 that sincerely.
9 Mr. Bornman laid out some of the
10 problems that these grandparents face. And just
11 to give you a little idea, this goes back
12 probably now, four or five years or more that I
13 became aware of this problem where grandparents
14 were now being forced as the last resort to take
15 care of their grandchildren.
16 We have a very good support system in
17 northeastern Pennsylvania. Literally hundreds
18 of grandparents come together, they discuss
19 their problems, they try to help one another.
20 That's how I became aware of this need.
21 I think one of the points that I want to
22 make here is that the laws regarding adoption
23 and kinship and being in charge of taking care
24 of one's family, I think, was based years ago on
25 a typical divorce, where two parents fell in 32
1 love, got married, had children and then things
2 didn't work out.
3 But in the end, both parents still loved
4 the children, and both parents would still work
5 towards supporting those children, either
6 financially or from the standpoint of parenting
7 them time to time.
8 The infusion of the opioid epidemic has
9 changed the thinking dramatically, and it needs
10 to change the thinking dramatically. Most
11 people that are addicted through opioids are
12 incapable, incapable, of taking care of the
13 children.
14 And the number one goal, I think, that
15 any of us should have here, as all the agencies
16 have, is the care and welfare, the safety, the
17 health and welfare of the child. So that's
18 number one.
19 What is in the best interest of the
20 children?
21 I have heard testimony from countless
22 grandparents that go through excruciating
23 circumstances. First of all, to deal with the
24 fact that one of their children, that's a
25 parent, is now addicted, the trauma that they go 33
1 through is incredible. And the grandparents
2 then reach out to try to protect and save the
3 children. So if I could make one point here
4 today, it would be that.
5 This is not like a typical divorce,
6 where there's a separation of parents causing a
7 disruption in the family circle. Again, most
8 parents in that divorce will still love the
9 children and be capable to understand the
10 responsibility that they have towards taking
11 care of those kids.
12 Those that are addicted, especially with
13 opioids, are incapable of doing that. Mentally,
14 the physiological brain changes. And because of
15 that, they cannot think normally. So therefore,
16 the grandparents are now forced into the
17 situation.
18 I have introduced two bills. It started
19 years ago, where we were going to try to do the
20 kinship navigator bill. We wanted to do a pilot
21 program in the northeast to demonstrate how
22 things have changed and to demonstrate why
23 there's such a need.
24 We were very successful in passing that
25 bill through the House. Chairwoman Watson, you 34
1 were very supportive of that. We got it through
2 the House. When it came to the Senate, the
3 Senate denied the process because they felt that
4 there wasn't a need for what we were trying to
5 do.
6 I think the testimony today, and your
7 own testimony, Madam Chair, has indicated times
8 have changed. So the issue is before us; you
9 can't ignore it. We have to do something about
10 it.
11 What I tried to do is moderate and
12 change the original bill to what we now call
13 emergency guardianship. This change came about
14 after discussion with several attorneys and
15 several judges. They felt that the best way to
16 address this issue would be through emergency
17 guardianship.
18 What does that mean?
19 Emergency guardianship allows those
20 grandparents, loco parentis, which means now,
21 for 60 days, they can take them now to a doctor
22 and get proper medical treatment. They can
23 enroll them in school. They became the parent;
24 60 days.
25 After 60 days, an extension can be also 35
1 extended for another 60 days with a maximum of
2 365 days. The idea of this is to make it less
3 cumbersome for the guardians to be able to
4 manage the care of the children. The hope is
5 that the parents will recover -- God bless you
6 -- and that the parents can resume their duties
7 as parents. That's the purpose of 1539.
8 So we have HR 390, which is going to ask
9 the Joint State Government Committee to do a
10 study to determine what are the needs relative
11 to the State of Pennsylvania; and then 1539 is a
12 way that we can give emergency guardianship to
13 those countless grandparents that are involved
14 in this problem.
15 So we have the change, based upon the
16 opioid addiction. We have the number one goal,
17 to protect the children. And then the other
18 goal is to try to help the grandparents.
19 Why do we need to do that?
20 Some of the numbers are staggering.
21 When I first started in researching this and
22 getting involved in this, the numbers were 190
23 to 191,000 children in the State of
24 Pennsylvania, grandchildren in the State of
25 Pennsylvania, that were being taken care of by 36
1 80,000 grandparents. Today, the numbers are
2 about 195,000 grandchildren being taken care of
3 by 88,000-plus grandparents. It's not going
4 away.
5 I'm not suggesting that I have all of
6 the answers here, but I am suggesting that with
7 all of us working together, I think we can come
8 to a conclusion that will accomplish those
9 goals. One, address the issue. Two, protect
10 the children. Three, help the grandparents.
11 I stand here for your questions.
12 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON:
13 Representative Pashinski, thank you very much.
14 I'm going to go through everybody, but I
15 have questions for you, so I look forward to you
16 staying and doing that.
17 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: I will stay.
18 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: But I want
19 to thank you publicly because I guess you are
20 the Paul Revere for grandparents, but indeed,
21 you sounded the alarm. I know that, from the
22 hearing that we had with the Aging Committee and
23 Chairman Hennessey, that's when I became aware,
24 talked to folks in my area who are doing it.
25 And what I found was the great 37
1 reluctance, I'll talk to you, but no, I don't
2 want to testify, and no, I don't want to be a
3 part of any system. And I'm like, but I don't
4 know how to help you. So I would venture that
5 you're coming up with some ideas that I think
6 are necessary, where maybe we need to change the
7 system a little, too, or make a category, a
8 special category for people in this circumstance
9 because their situation is very different.
10 And that's something you and I both
11 believe that we have to do --
12 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: Absolutely.
13 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: -- and make
14 work. And then it will work for the lawyers and
15 the this and the that. But mostly, it will work
16 for the children, which is what we're all about.
17 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: Well, thank
18 you.
19 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you
20 very much.
21 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: Thank you,
22 Madam Chair.
23 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: We have
24 questions coming.
25 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: I'm here. 38
1 Thank you.
2 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
3 Thank you.
4 Now, it's my pleasure -- I mentioned to
5 some of you that people had traveled far.
6 Thanks for being here, because it was 9:00, but
7 they had to travel further than that and get up
8 and be here. Our next testifier is, indeed, one
9 of those people. And that is Mrs. Lotte Powell.
10 She made the trip from Honesdale, Pennsylvania
11 to participate in today's hearing.
12 Mrs. Powell and her husband are
13 currently raising the child of her daughter.
14 Mrs. Powell, I appreciate your willingness to
15 get up nice and early and come to testify to
16 share your personal story, which I think is
17 terribly important, but I know it's very hard
18 for folks to do. You are a brave lady.
19 On behalf of the Committee, I want to
20 thank you for being here. We look forward to
21 hearing you speak. Thank you.
22 MRS. POWELL: Thank you very much.
23 Good morning, Representative Watson and
24 members of the Children & Youth Committee. I
25 will be reading off my notes. I'm not very good 39
1 with eye contact. Forgive me.
2 My name is Lotte Powell. I live in
3 Honesdale, and I'm a grandparent raising a
4 grandchild. Our granddaughter, Rosie, is 20
5 months old and has special needs due to chronic
6 failure to thrive.
7 I'm giving my testimony in hopes that it
8 will help this Committee better understand the
9 depth and expanse we grandparents face in
10 raising our grandchildren in the hopes that you
11 can craft some working solutions. This
12 Committee must find a way to make the system
13 proactive instead of reactive, a way to help us
14 open doors for these children, and a way to
15 prevent a new poverty group that is in your
16 midst, still unrecognized.
17 How did we become grandparents raising a
18 grandchild?
19 Our granddaughter was born on
20 October 12th, 2015. At that time, there was no
21 paternity on her birth certificate. The
22 hospital social worker painstakingly took time
23 to explain to our daughter the need for
24 paternity in order to attain welfare benefits,
25 should she need them down the road. 40
1 An acknowledgement of paternity form was
2 left with our daughter. She was an unwed teen
3 mother at the time.
4 The following February, she married
5 someone who had just been released from jail in
6 January. He was 17 years her senior. They took
7 the acknowledgement of paternity form and it was
8 filed, hereby subverting the adoption procedure,
9 and the child was put in immediate danger.
10 The gentleman my daughter married has
11 had all of his children taken away by Children &
12 Youth in other States. Paternity was issued on
13 the birth certificate, not as putative, but as
14 full father, granting him rights throughout the
15 States. The putative status is unavailable to
16 vital records to denote on a birth certificate.
17 They took our granddaughter, and they
18 moved into New York State. Our granddaughter
19 was moved on March 15th, and the family was
20 fully welfare-dependent. Public housing was in
21 place. Food stamps were delayed. Medical
22 coverages was delayed. And WIC was never
23 implemented for obvious reasons as you will
24 hear.
25 We needed to involve child protective 41
1 services in May of 2016. I contacted the abuse
2 hotline because there was lack of food and
3 severe abuse taking place in the home, but not
4 physical abuse. I did not hear back from them.
5 In May, I again contacted them, spoke
6 with the caseworker and provided pictures of our
7 emaciated granddaughter. She gained, from
8 February until September, one and a half pounds
9 during eight months of an infant's life.
10 I also contacted Pennsylvania Children &
11 Youth for assistance, but was told there was
12 none available. I have since come to learn
13 there are only three caseworkers in an area
14 where there should be 11.
15 In September, the doctor finally
16 reported chronic failure to thrive for our
17 granddaughter. New York did not remove the
18 child. Rather, they implemented minimal
19 supports into the family. This put us in a
20 place that, on September 28th, we filed for
21 guardianship with New York State on behalf of
22 our granddaughter.
23 It took from September of '16 until
24 February of '17 before pre-trial intervention
25 took place. This involved six attorneys. It 42
1 resulted in the court assigning legal
2 representation to the child.
3 One week later, family court heard the
4 matter. The judge listened to testimony and
5 determined that the stepfather had no paternal
6 rights, as were granted on the Pennsylvania
7 birth certificate.
8 We were given temporarily guardianship
9 for the child's safety and learned that New York
10 Children & Youth had indeed done an in-depth
11 investigation in the home and recommended that
12 the child should be removed, but never took any
13 action. The court also never issued any
14 support. This put the child back inside of
15 Pennsylvania.
16 What do we do?
17 Well, the first thing that I did was I
18 went online to COMPASS. Not every grandparent
19 has access to the Internet or understanding of
20 how to use this.
21 We applied for all of the available
22 services: Food Stamps, TANF, cash assistance,
23 medical, early intervention, Early Head Start,
24 WIC, a story behind each of these. In general,
25 we were able to get medical care for her. We 43
1 were able to put that into place. CHIP is
2 there.
3 Early intervention, we were able to
4 qualify and she is receiving. Early Head Start,
5 finances were considered. Fortunately, there
6 were other factors that opened the door for our
7 granddaughter who is in need. As far as cash
8 assistance, Food Stamps and TANF, Food Stamps
9 and cash assistance, the senior community is
10 greatly penalized because we have been
11 responsible through our life. We may qualify to
12 apply, however, when it comes to the point of a
13 net income, which greatly looks at what do you
14 pay on a mortgage, what do you pay on rent, so
15 forth and so on, we didn't have these expenses
16 because we had been responsible. We've paid off
17 our home. We pay for our cars. And we we're
18 not sitting here living outside of our means.
19 TANF, that is based, as we've heard, on
20 parental input, financially. Our granddaughter
21 has no father at this point to be able to
22 receive anything from. Our daughter was whisked
23 away by an abusive man into Florida, no job, and
24 we have great, great strains with that, as well.
25 WIC, she qualified for. You should hear 44
1 what she's receiving. She gets 26 cents a day
2 for fresh fruits and vegetables, two glasses of
3 milk, a dozen eggs per month, a forth of a glass
4 of juice, two and a half ounces of dry cereal, a
5 slice of bread, two ounces of beans, but let's
6 make certain that we provide a chemical-based
7 Pediasure in order to prevent this child from
8 not growing.
9 Children & Youth were contacted by
10 New York State six days after we got her on
11 February 14th. They received a referral from
12 New York State to see if they could do anything
13 to assist us. They were limited to COMPASS
14 because this child is not a foster care case.
15 That was subverted. Therefore, there is no
16 access to any of the grand family guardianship
17 programs that may be available.
18 Her current legal status, New York State
19 was able to provide us permanent guardianship.
20 May -- in April, we were able to finally get
21 Susquehanna County to determine who the father
22 was through DNA testing, however, the father has
23 no interest in the child and he is unable to
24 support her.
25 This left us with very few options, so 45
1 we have had to start the adoption process.
2 Paternal consent papers are on file at this time
3 with our attorney. We are waiting now for the
4 abandonment time to complete. Total legal costs
5 to date for the guardianship alone in New York
6 State are $4,000. That does not cover any of
7 the costs that we've had so far to raise this
8 little girl who does have needs.
9 Adoption costs have yet to be
10 determined. Our retirement savings are totally
11 depleted. Our annual income is $26,151. And
12 that may sound very strange. On top of that, we
13 are also legal guardians for my mother with
14 Alzheimer's. So we have other people in our
15 lives that we do care for, that have great needs
16 that there are no resources for. My mother is
17 91 years old.
18 What are our community challenges?
19 You've heard a number of them. I've written a
20 few out.
21 First, we need to be accurately
22 recognized. Current statistics only reflect
23 those cases that are known and documented, as
24 we've mentioned. With the current drug epidemic
25 alone, this group of unknowns is skyrocketing. 46
1 That does not include those whom the system has
2 betrayed. The Department of Children & Youth
3 has trust issues throughout the public. There
4 are many reasons for that.
5 Family is not received as credible
6 advocates when we call in. That is one of the
7 great problems. There is a great fear on our
8 part of losing our children to the foster care
9 system. Many of us have been betrayed by the
10 system, a court or a caseworker. Communication
11 with family is stifled. CYS workers are not
12 allowed to speak to anyone outside of the
13 immediate guardians, and then they are required
14 to respect their requests, even when these are
15 the people who have endangered these children's
16 lives. That is unacceptable.
17 The current system requirements are that
18 only minimum systems be rendered to avoid foster
19 care. Pressure on the workers from within is to
20 lower the caseload, waiting it out as long as
21 possible till a family member steps up, landing
22 us in a situation such as what I have, which
23 goes, again, into the undocumented numbers. And
24 these do happen frequently across State lines.
25 This is not a Pennsylvania-only issue, but it is 47
1 something that's alive here in PA.
2 The results, there are no supports
3 outside of foster care. COMPASS programs are
4 dependent on the legal status of the caregiver
5 and the guardian's resources solely.
6 Abandonment and court-appointed children are not
7 considered endangered, yet they have no access
8 to medical care, education or even their own
9 funds.
10 The funds that these children have are
11 being left in the hands of drug addicts so often
12 and are now funding this opioid epidemic.
13 Families are not provided ways to engage in
14 essential services. There is no access to legal
15 aid, and there is no one to advocate for these
16 children.
17 Health and Human Services, there is a
18 limited access to the COMPASS benefits, as I
19 have mentioned, for legal and financial reasons.
20 Families of these children have no access to
21 special services. We require respite care
22 resources. We suffer from caregiver neglect and
23 burn out.
24 There are no resources to prevent
25 poverty needs. Inside of the system, there's no 48
1 means for toilet paper, soap, diapers,
2 essentials that we need for children, essentials
3 that can prevent poverty appearances.
4 Area Agency on Aging offers no support.
5 There are no care coordinators. We deal with
6 great geriatric and pediatric needs. People
7 come down with cancer, they have to take special
8 needs children on public transportation. These
9 children are minor.
10 How are we supposed to do this?
11 These are very true situations that I
12 know of in our own community, and I've only been
13 dealing with this since February.
14 Potential solutions, we are asking for a
15 hand up, not a handout. Please stop penalizing
16 us for living responsible lives by making a new
17 poverty group.
18 What can you as legislators do?
19 Some ideas, push our State Senators at
20 the Capitol level to amend the RAISE Caregivers
21 Act in Washington, revamp Title IV-E gap to
22 provide families with subsidized permanent legal
23 custodianship while a family is undergoing a
24 foster care licensure procedure.
25 Sixty days is a drop in the bucket that 49
1 passes by before you know it, and we spend our
2 time sitting, spinning our wheels, taking the
3 time with court after court after court. Upon
4 the new State System of Care program that's in
5 place, we need to include the Department of
6 Aging and the Department of Education to benefit
7 all the numbers of the community.
8 We need to create a program for the GRGs
9 on par with the current Pennsylvania CARE Act
10 with the General Assembly.
11 Why? To provide medical care, access to
12 finance benefits and enroll these children in
13 school. We need to implement this through
14 Children & Youth. A key element would be to
15 Children & Youth immediately referring the case
16 to legal aid to process emergency proceedings on
17 behalf of the children and the GRGs.
18 We have many attorneys throughout the
19 State who do pro bono work, who are not being
20 used by legal aid. This should be opened up and
21 utilized.
22 Revise recording of the acknowledgement
23 of paternity in vital records. Make a provision
24 for a putative father when using the
25 acknowledgement of paternity form, congruently 50
1 defined on the birth certificate what the rights
2 of these parents are because they are being
3 granted and children are being put in danger.
4 Revise all the COMPASS programs accessed
5 for the care of a GRG child to be based on the
6 minor's situation solely, their income, their
7 representation, not on the part of the
8 grandparent, because we are hampered.
9 Update the Title IV-E waiver from Social
10 Security to better cover the GRG needs.
11 Pressure AARP to the establish Kinship Care
12 Program here inside of Pennsylvania. At this
13 time, what's there is not -- I have seen much
14 better in other States. And AARP, at this time,
15 is not participating in that here.
16 Encourage CASA programs throughout every
17 county in Pennsylvania. There are only 27
18 counties that have CASA representation. Create
19 trust within the community, tear down walls to
20 existing programs, base the qualifications on
21 the recipient's age and income. In this case,
22 dominantly children, but we also have seniors
23 who don't have access to things as a result.
24 Remove the foster care requirement for
25 Subsidized Grand Family Program. Currently, the 51
1 children have to be in State foster care for six
2 months prior to being able to access this. And
3 yet, we talk about giving 60 days for a
4 grandparent to be able to step in. Something is
5 very out of balance.
6 Allow Children & Youth to assist grand
7 families that may not be in foster care and
8 grand families' resources to Children & Youth to
9 be able to call in. Create a financial
10 caseworker within Children & Youth.
11 What would their job look like? To
12 better identify and connect families to
13 available resources that are both public and
14 private and throughout other agencies, not just
15 Children & Youth.
16 Educate a caregiver on how to better use
17 these resources, improving the quality of life,
18 such as educating them. To act as a resource of
19 legislators when you are looking to craft a
20 working solution.
21 You need somebody you can go to. You
22 can't go to every single caseworker you've got,
23 but to have one in each county that you as
24 Representatives can go to and have just a few to
25 tap into would be quite helpful. 52
1 Treat your caregivers with respect,
2 provide publication that exists, The
3 Grandparents' Guide to Custody & visitation. I
4 went down to Area Agency on Aging. They didn't
5 even know this thing existed.
6 Why isn't this out there throughout the
7 Agencies?
8 It's been developed. We've spent the
9 money on it, let's put it in their hands.
10 Listen to us, the family, as credible.
11 We are the ones that are seeing where and when
12 the caseworkers cannot. Recognize the family
13 needs for those who fill the gap of both the
14 young and the old. Open the Aging offices to
15 use by our community. Extend more Aging
16 programs to include our dependants.
17 I couldn't even go down and have a
18 community meal with my granddaughter without
19 paying full price. As a senior, that's
20 unacceptable.
21 Respond positively to local caregiver
22 groups. Don't reply with just an Internet link
23 or be unavailable for an evening meeting. You
24 need to hear us; we need to hear you.
25 Many of us find ourselves having to 53
1 work. We are tied up with providing for these
2 children during the day when other agencies are
3 there. And if we ask for someone to come once a
4 year to a meeting, don't sit there and say, I
5 can't go because it's after hours.
6 Authorize these hours to be available
7 for our needs through the State agencies.
8 Regional community forum, that was done by
9 Area Agency on Aging when you were looking at
10 the Alzheimer's situation. Do the same here.
11 Provide four or five meetings throughout the
12 Commonwealth and listen to what the public has
13 to say.
14 You will hear from many different walks
15 of life that work with this. We have limited
16 resources here at the Capitol, but you have it
17 throughout the State. Reach out to the
18 community foundations that exist to assist the
19 awareness of the GRG needs. They will be there.
20 In the legal system, base the legal aid
21 qualifications on the child. Make those who are
22 pro bono available to children. Immediately
23 provide a CASA worker for each child that is
24 abandoned or appointed a legal guardian. That
25 would help huge. 54
1 My conclusion is a quote from the
2 Department of Education website for family and
3 consumer science education, the economic, social
4 and political well-being of our State depends on
5 the well-being of the Pennsylvania families.
6 The family is responsible for nurturing its
7 members. Family experiences, to a great extent,
8 determine who a person is and what they become.
9 If our needs, as grandparents raising
10 grandchildren, as a community, are left
11 unaddressed, legislators will be burdening
12 Pennsylvania with a new poverty group. It will
13 enable prejudice toward system outcasts, the
14 abandoned, the victimized, the very old, the
15 very young, those who are most vulnerable.
16 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON:
17 Mrs. Powell, thank you very much.
18 I think you started by saying, I'm not
19 going to look up, and I have to do this and
20 that. Mrs. Powell, you're eloquent. You just
21 may not know it yourself, but you are a good and
22 great advocate for people who are in a situation
23 like you.
24 Many of the things, I kept sitting and
25 looking like one of those bobbing dolls in the 55
1 back of the car. I would be nodding my head
2 because, yes, people are hearing you. They do
3 know. I understand more of us need to
4 understand, and you have helped make that
5 happen.
6 Thank you very much. And if you can,
7 please, after the long ride, stick around for
8 any questions that might come up.
9 MRS. POWELL: Certainly.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
11 MRS. POWELL: Thank you.
12 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you
13 so much.
14 At this time, I would like to welcome a
15 lady who is no stranger to this Committee. We
16 sort of have her on standby and call and ask
17 questions, but indeed, it is Cathy Utz. She is
18 the Deputy Secretary for Department of Human
19 Services Office of Children, Youth & families.
20 Certainly, you've testified on a variety
21 of issues before. You've always been a valuable
22 resources, and I want to thank you because
23 you've been a good partner in working for the
24 welfare of children.
25 I would add that that is really why this 56
1 Committee exists, to give children a voice, to
2 put children first because they are voiceless.
3 And I think of Mrs. Powell's testimony. A
4 20-month-old has great needs and can't verbalize
5 that the way her grandmother could. So we thank
6 you for being here, and we also would like --
7 we're going to do a two team -- what is that in
8 wrestling?
9 It's a tag team. I don't know how I
10 could have forgotten it, I watch wrestling all
11 the time. But in any event, indeed, we've got
12 Suzann Morris. Ms. Morris, you've been here
13 before, too. We go right to the sources.
14 And indeed, you've just been
15 confirmed -- congratulations -- as the
16 Deputy Secretary second at OCDEL. I use the
17 acronym so you can explain it. We congratulate
18 you on your appointment. We thank you for being
19 here, and we'll perhaps just roll with both of
20 you to give us your opinions. You've listened
21 to previous testimony.
22 Please begin. Thank you.
23 DEPUTY SECRETARY UTZ: Thank you,
24 Chairwoman Watson, Chairman Conklin and members
25 of the Committee. Yes, I do spend a lot of time 57
1 with you all. I think just a few months ago,
2 right? And I talk to many of you on the phone,
3 right?
4 So I think that we've heard a lot about
5 some of the challenges that exist. I want to
6 thank Mrs. Powell for caring for her
7 granddaughter. It sounds like that's been a
8 very challenging journey.
9 I think that in Pennsylvania, what we
10 want to talk about, at least from our
11 perspective is, what's happening in the child
12 welfare system when families become involved,
13 and then the resources that are available
14 through the Office of Child Development and
15 Early Learning.
16 But I think that Pennsylvania has had a
17 long history of providing services to kin who
18 are there to provide safe and stable homes for
19 children who would otherwise be placed in the
20 child welfare system, but I think we've also
21 heard that there's probably work that we need to
22 do in that regard.
23 The data that we've been able to collect
24 from our 67 counties shows that on September
25 30th of 2016, there were 15,627 children who 58
1 were placed in Pennsylvania's foster care
2 system. And that of those, the good news is,
3 12,662 were actually placed in family-like
4 settings. So we've come a long way in our work
5 to ensure that children are placed in those
6 family-like settings.
7 That includes pre-adoptive homes. It
8 includes foster family homes of relatives or
9 kin, as we refer to it in Pennsylvania, but also
10 non-relative foster homes.
11 I think that we all know that research
12 tells us that children that are placed in
13 family-like settings versus congregate care
14 settings also have better long-term outcomes.
15 Their educational needs are better. They are
16 more self-sufficient, generally speaking. They
17 end up being not in homeless situations or
18 incarcerated. So we're doing everything that we
19 can to ensure that our children are in
20 family-like settings because that's the most
21 appropriate place.
22 And what we're getting proud of is that
23 really we're spending a lot of time looking and
24 searching for family members. This legislature
25 passed the Family Finding Act, and I think one 59
1 of the sponsors is actually over there in the
2 corner. So we actually have done a lot of great
3 work since that's been in place.
4 In 2011, of the children that were
5 placed in foster family homes, 3,433 were in
6 relative homes. On September 30th of 2016,
7 5,385 children were actually in relative homes.
8 So we continue to do our best.
9 I think there used to be an adage back
10 in the day -- and I can say that because I'll
11 hit 30 years this year -- in child welfare that
12 there was an adage that the apple doesn't fall
13 far from the tree. So we didn't realize the
14 benefits that families would actually provide in
15 caring for children. I think we've come a long
16 way in that period of time to recognize the
17 vital resources that grandparents and other kin
18 play in the lives of children that are placed in
19 the formal child welfare system.
20 Our efforts, really, in supporting kin
21 began two decades ago, in 1997. Brian mentioned
22 the Adoption and Safe Families Act, that it
23 established, really, national goals for the
24 child welfare system, of safety, permanency and
25 well-being. Prior to those, what we found is 60
1 that children were really languishing in foster
2 care. They would spend years in foster care
3 without permanent resources. They would age out
4 of our system, and we knew that their outcomes
5 weren't good.
6 Many of them ended up homeless, reliant
7 on other public benefits. But really, we're
8 looking to make sure that we have a new day.
9 When children enter the foster care system,
10 there's a court order goal established. And
11 we're really looking at those court ordered
12 goals.
13 First and foremost, we try to reunify
14 children with their families. And if they
15 can't, then we look to find that child a
16 permanent home through adoption. And then we
17 look to find either a fit and willing relative
18 or a permanent legal custodian, as we've heard
19 about today.
20 The Juvenile Act was amended in 1998 to
21 support the requirements of the Federal
22 legislation. And then at around that time, to
23 support the ongoing needs of children who had
24 special needs that were adopted, we actually had
25 our adoption assistance program, which provides 61
1 subsidies to families who adopt children with
2 special needs, not just in the form of a cash
3 subsidy, but also Medical Assistance.
4 We also then recognized that, prior to
5 the receipt of Federal funds, it wasn't just
6 adoption that was achieving permanent outcomes
7 for children, it really was guardianship. So we
8 started our permanent legal custodianship
9 program through the use of State and county
10 funds only in order to support subsidies to
11 families who didn't necessarily adopt a child,
12 but were willing to be that permanent resource
13 because perhaps they still wanted to be
14 connected to their families. They didn't want
15 to go through the termination of parental
16 rights, as we've talked about, which can be
17 challenging and concerning.
18 If you're a grandparent wanting to adopt
19 your grandchild, it might be challenging then to
20 explore termination of your child's parental
21 rights. And so we really began to support our
22 subsidized permanent legal custodianship
23 program. We've been doing that since 2001, in
24 making sure that we provide those resources and
25 services that are available. So it is the same 62
1 as the Adoption Assistance Program, where you
2 get a subsidy and oftentimes Medical Assistance
3 benefits, as well.
4 And so as a result of our work -- and I
5 think Brian stole my line that we did this
6 before it was cool to do it -- other States
7 began to see that it was something that worked.
8 And then in 2008, the Federal government
9 actually began to participate in the
10 reimbursement to States and counties for
11 guardianship assistance programs. So we're now
12 able to draw down Federal funds to begin to
13 support that work, we continue to do so each and
14 every day.
15 But in true Pennsylvania fashion, we
16 didn't think that we should stop just at what
17 the Federal government would pay for, because
18 they support adoption subsidies and guardianship
19 subsidies for children up to age 21, if they
20 have been adopted or achieve guardianship after
21 the age of 16. In Pennsylvania, we took a step
22 back, we looked at our data, and we recognized
23 that we have a lot of youth who were between the
24 ages of 13 and 15 years old who were languishing
25 in our foster care system. We said, you know 63
1 what, we want to make sure that they support
2 subsidies up until age 21.
3 So through work with the General
4 Assembly, we actually codified that, as well.
5 And through our guardianship assistance program
6 and adoption assistance, we will support those
7 subsidies up to age 21, because we recognize
8 that children were staying in foster care,
9 because you could have those supports to 21 for
10 a child who remained in foster care.
11 We wanted to make sure that those
12 supports were afforded to individuals who
13 adopted or provided guardianship after the age
14 of 13 because that was important. So because we
15 had these well-established programs in place, we
16 were one of the first States in the nation to
17 actually be able to draw down Federal funds to
18 support the work that we've been doing.
19 And over the time that we've been
20 working on our Kinship Care program, I think we
21 all know that our definition of kin in
22 Pennsylvania is very broad. So it includes
23 relatives, but it also includes individuals with
24 whom that child and/or family have a
25 relationship, because we recognize -- I'm an 64
1 aunt to many kids that aren't my blood nieces
2 and nephews, right?
3 So I think that part of what we
4 recognized in Pennsylvania is that there are a
5 lot of people who care for kids who know family
6 members, and we want to make sure that they're
7 supported, as well. And the General Assembly
8 has been really great about supporting us in our
9 efforts to move that work forward.
10 And so our data currently suggests that
11 in fiscal year 2015-2016, that there were 11,448
12 children who were supported through permanent
13 legal custodianship subsidies, and that was
14 totalling $34 million, with the Federal share
15 being 10. So again, Pennsylvania's investment
16 from our State and counties is great compared to
17 those Federal funds that we receive on behalf of
18 the children and families we serve.
19 Thank you.
20 DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS: Good morning.
21 Thank you so much, Chairwoman Watson,
22 Chairman Conklin, esteemed members of the
23 Committee, as well as staff, for this
24 opportunity to testify on behalf of the Office
25 of Child Development and Early Learning, OCDEL. 65
1 OCDEL is a dual deputate office. We report to
2 the Departments of Education and Human Services.
3 I was really heartened to hear
4 Ms. Powell say that she was able to access Early
5 Head Start as well as Early Intervention, two
6 programs under the auspices of OCDEL, two
7 high-quality early learning programs that are
8 essential to putting children on the road to
9 success.
10 So Pennsylvania is a recognized leader
11 in providing access to early care and education
12 settings for families and children that really
13 meet their needs. Through the Commonwealth's
14 subsidized child-care program, Child Care Works,
15 low-income working families meeting income
16 thresholds of 200 percent of the Federal poverty
17 level may receive financial support to assist
18 with the cost of child care, and that includes
19 families in which the primary caregiver is the
20 grandparent.
21 In 2016-'17, approximately 200,000 slots
22 for children aged six weeks to 13 years old were
23 supported through the Child Care Development
24 Block Grant in the Commonwealth. But decades of
25 research show that stable high-quality early 66
1 care in education provide both an important work
2 support as well as laying a critical foundation
3 for children's later success in life, including
4 healthy social, physical and mental
5 developments.
6 Providers and caregivers who regularly
7 care for young children can have a positive
8 impact on children, but instability and the
9 availability of child care can be a detriment to
10 positive child outcomes. I think we all know
11 this. Daily instability, including
12 unpredictable routines, structure and frequent
13 changes in teachers are linked with poor child
14 well-being and teacher-child interactions.
15 And multiple care arrangements, even
16 across a short period of time, are linked with
17 negative child behavior and cognitive outcomes.
18 Recognizing that a more stable experience
19 benefits all children in child care, regardless
20 of their primary caregiver, but particularly for
21 children whose parent or caretaker has been
22 displaced, OCDEL is proposing to promulgate
23 subsidized child-care regulations that allow
24 continuity of care for the remainder of a
25 child's required 12-month eligibility period 67
1 during a break-in or following the loss of work,
2 education or training.
3 The child will receive a full 12 months
4 of eligibility for child-care subsidy, as long
5 as family income does not exceed 85 percent of
6 the State medium income, which in Pennsylvania
7 is $90,821 for a family of four, and family
8 assets that don't exceed $1 million.
9 When a child's home life is in flux, a
10 level of stability in the child-care arrangement
11 becomes much more valuable for the family.
12 Instability in the child's care arrangement
13 further disrupts caregiver employment and
14 education, harms children and runs counter to
15 nearly all of the purposes of the Child Care
16 Development Block Grant.
17 Therefore, the proposed rulemaking also
18 includes the continuity of care for the
19 remainder of a child's required 12-month
20 eligibility period, when there is a change in
21 the child's primary parent or caretaker. This
22 ensures continuity of care for children
23 experiencing the trauma of a parent or caretaker
24 leaving the home for reasons including: death,
25 inpatient treatment centers, incarceration or 68
1 military deployment.
2 The Child Care Development Block Grant
3 prohibits DHS from acting on information between
4 12-month redetermination periods that would
5 reduce the family subsidy, unless the
6 information provided indicates the family's
7 income exceeds that 85 percent of State's medium
8 income. Supporting the family structure in home
9 and community-based settings is foundational to
10 holistic and healthy family development,
11 including families whose primary caregiver is a
12 grandparent.
13 Pennsylvania's family centers are
14 community-based places that provide a variety of
15 services for children and family members to
16 become healthy, safe, self-sufficient and
17 prepare children to succeed in school and
18 beyond. Family Centers have helped
19 Pennsylvania's families build protective
20 factors, including social connections, concrete
21 supports, knowledge of parenting and
22 child development, child social and emotional
23 competence, and resilience that results in
24 positive outcomes, as well as connecting
25 caregivers with one another to really build a 69
1 community infrastructure around families.
2 Family Centers are an early childhood
3 parent education and family support program
4 serving families throughout pregnancy until
5 their child enters kindergarten. Each Family
6 Center offers a core set of services, such as
7 the Parents as Teachers Home Visiting Program,
8 to provide caregivers with knowledge and
9 resources to prepare their children for a
10 stronger start in life and greater success in
11 school and beyond.
12 Parents as Teachers defines parents to
13 include: people with relationships to children
14 which may be biological, adoptive or foster,
15 grandparents, older siblings or other adults who
16 create a family for a child. In 1992, the first
17 Pennsylvania-funded Parents as Teachers programs
18 were implemented in 13 newly-created family
19 centers by the Pennsylvania Department of
20 Education.
21 Today, Parents as Teachers is being used
22 by 43 family centers and in other settings,
23 for a total of 70 organizations with 95 program
24 sites. Parents as Teachers is federally
25 recognized as meeting rigorous standards for 70
1 effectiveness and encourages active parent
2 participation, regardless of how that parent is
3 defined, in advisory committees and provides
4 opportunities for leadership in the community.
5 Pennsylvania Family Centers are funded
6 with $3,258,000 in State dollars through a
7 DHS line item, Community-Based Family Centers.
8 And State funds match $5,783,000 in Federal
9 funding through Title 4 B Part 2 and
10 Community-Based Child Abuse Prevention.
11 Additionally, many family centers augment their
12 funding with contracts with county Children &
13 Youth agencies and from foundations and other
14 fund development activities.
15 Research shows that Family Centers, by
16 using the Parents as Teachers model, accomplish
17 several key outcomes, including: preventing
18 child abuse and neglect, increasing child
19 development skills and school readiness and
20 improving maternal and child health. Currently,
21 there are 31 Family Center Grants, and close to
22 7,000 families were served in 2015-16.
23 OCDEL also provides funding to local
24 communities for evidence-based home visiting
25 models. In 2009, through the Maternal Infant 71
1 Early Childhood Home Visiting Federal funding
2 opportunity, OCDEL expanded services to
3 vulnerable low-income pregnant women, infants,
4 toddlers and preschoolers through four
5 evidence-based home visiting models.
6 Local communities completed a community
7 needs assessment and applied to provide Early
8 Head Start, Healthy Families America and for the
9 expansion of Nurse-Family Partnership or Parents
10 as Teachers. In 2009, as well as 2014, OCDEL
11 also submitted and received Early Head Start
12 funding through the Federal Office of Head
13 Start.
14 Home visiting provides comprehensive
15 support services based on the selected model,
16 and services include: parenting, healthy growth
17 and child development, support of social systems
18 and strengthening families. There are 31 local
19 home-visiting implementing agencies, and they're
20 projected to serve 2,378 families in 2017-18.
21 In addition to the expansion of
22 services, this initiative includes supportive
23 practices to assist with the prevention of child
24 abuse and the early identification of children
25 with special needs or developmental delays and 72
1 supports for multi-generational families. And
2 in the case of Early Head Start and Parents as
3 Teachers, it would support Kinship Care
4 families.
5 I want to thank the Committee for your
6 continued support of children and families who
7 are achieving permanency through lasting
8 connections as well as gaining positive outcomes
9 in child development and developing stable,
10 caring relationships, regardless of who their
11 primary caregiver is.
12 Thank you so much.
13 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you,
14 Secretary. I have to turn this on, but thank
15 you, Secretary Morris.
16 And indeed, if the other testifiers want
17 to come up and grab a chair so we can ask
18 questions, I think our group has questions to
19 ask.
20 Mr. Grasa, will you write down, so we
21 don't forget everybody's name as to who wants a
22 question?
23 I would like to just -- I'm not sure if
24 it's a question I'm about to make or a
25 statement, but I would suggest that what this 73
1 hearing is about -- and we thank you for that --
2 is to come up with ideas that we will turn into
3 legislation, solutions, changes. I had hoped,
4 too, that indeed the broad base that we had come
5 and testify, you would learn from each other and
6 this would be a beginning for us because I
7 absolutely believe that this is beyond
8 phenomenon. This is simply a change in family
9 structure, and it needs to be accounted for in
10 order for children to succeed.
11 And constantly, I'm the one who says,
12 I'll give children a voice. And I know most of
13 my colleagues here have done that, I think some
14 of them for a very long time, because they don't
15 really have a voice. And it was important for
16 you to be here, Mrs. Powell, because
17 grandparents need a voice, too, in this.
18 In other words, it isn't a solution that
19 six legislators from various parts of the
20 State -- so we accounted for the geography --
21 were going to come together and figure out. It
22 will take a lot of us together. It has nothing
23 to do with how you are politically registered.
24 It does have to do a little bit with
25 geography because there are different things, 74
1 and that was something I was going to get into
2 and ask, to account for the fact that what I'm
3 hearing from my good friend, Representative
4 Pashinski, in his area, at least grandparents
5 saw a need and got together. There isn't such a
6 thing -- I'm in the southeast, lots of people,
7 but if anything, I would think it's gone the
8 other way, where a lot of times, people, they
9 handle it, but they don't want you to know
10 because they're embarrassed that this has
11 happened to their children. They see it somehow
12 as their fault, and so they want to take care of
13 their grandchildren.
14 I also think, quite frankly,
15 Secretary Morris, that I know we've got
16 educators who know the situation, but they kind
17 of overlook some things and we get this child
18 registered in school beyond that 60 days, but I
19 think there are technical things that we should
20 be able to change. And if we pull it all
21 together, ladies and gentlemen, I think we'll
22 have a series of bills that will work on this
23 segment of our population and protect this
24 segment of children along the way.
25 So that's why we have the Executive 75
1 Director from the Aging Committee here, because
2 we see it as something, between us, we can work
3 together, and we will make lives better for
4 those who are the grandparents, but lives better
5 for those who are the children. So with that as
6 the background, I would like to then start.
7 Representative Conklin, you had a
8 question, a comment?
9 MINORITY CHAIRMAN CONKLIN: Thank you.
10 Mrs. Powell, I wanted to thank you for
11 giving your story. You're about the same age as
12 I am, and it's only by the grace of God that my
13 children are able to be self-sufficient, but I
14 do have family members who have gone through
15 what you have gone through. My heart goes out
16 to you.
17 My question is more for Brian and Cathy
18 and Suzann. And this is a rather difficult
19 question to ask because it really isn't a
20 solution, but you may have an idea.
21 As many of us talk about our past
22 lives -- I was the county commissioner. Now, to
23 most people, if you're in a small County, not a
24 lot happens. If you're in a big county,
25 somebody does something. Or if you're in Centre 76
1 County, that means you're medium-sized so you
2 had to do everything. And the reason I ask this
3 question, we oversee the jails. We oversee
4 Office of Aging, we oversee Children & Youth,
5 Transportation, across the board. And there was
6 this term used that we don't use in the public
7 very often. I shouldn't use it on television.
8 But many times we would sit down with
9 the Department heads such as yourself, and we
10 would call it the latest line item. And the
11 reason we would call that, whether flattering or
12 not, we realized that the grandfather or
13 grandmother was in jail. The father of the
14 child who wouldn't be married was also in the
15 jail or in the system, had been arrested
16 multiple times. The mother had been arrested
17 for drugs or maybe shoplifting, and they were
18 expecting a child that was to be shortly born
19 and that would come into the system, because
20 quickly, it was in services across the board.
21 And I know it goes against parents know
22 best, you know, the political term as many of us
23 used to say, but if everybody in my position
24 believes the parents know best, maybe we should
25 do the Parent Swap Program, where these parents 77
1 can have your children, you can take theirs.
2 This is a long-winded question, probably
3 a short answer, but not easily done. In many of
4 these cases, we've already identified when this
5 child is born that they are going to struggle
6 through life, starting early. Is there any way
7 legally that you could think of that we could
8 begin these early intervention programs with
9 because we know, as soon as they're born, we
10 know, because of the past, because of the
11 grandparents, because of the parent, the uncles,
12 the aunts, that their chances of making it are
13 much lower than what many children are.
14 Is there anything that you can think of
15 that we could do without taking away somebody's
16 rights or a way that we can get these in early
17 intervention. I know that we have Head Start
18 programs. We have places like Cen-Clear Child
19 Services, places that get involved, but it takes
20 the parent to get involved with them, which
21 works out great, but any other ideas that you
22 all would have?
23 DEPUTY SECRETARY UTZ: There is -- I
24 think one of the things that we're seeing in the
25 field of, you know, child welfare and human 78
1 services in general is that in the past, there
2 wasn't the evidence-based, right? So we've
3 always had evidence-based programs and solutions
4 and treatments in the science field, right? But
5 in Human Services, we haven't necessarily had
6 those.
7 And so I think we're beginning to really
8 use the information and that science and
9 evaluation to our benefit to be able to say,
10 what could we do differently, and are there
11 evidence-based program that work with particular
12 populations and individuals? One of the things
13 that is merging right now -- emerging, sorry --
14 in our field is what's called predictive
15 analytics. And so they use it in other
16 industries.
17 We actually engaged in a conversation
18 through one of our foundation partners that the
19 airline industry uses in how you can potentially
20 pre vent other plane crashes from occurring. So
21 we're actually trying to do something similar.
22 We have a few counties that are really
23 interested.
24 We've been paying attention to
25 predictive analytics and really being able to 79
1 say, if you have a certain set of
2 characteristics and you may then come to the
3 child welfare door, is there other early
4 intervention that could happen to prevent that?
5 So there's kind of a lot of folks,
6 there's probably some controversy, and folks
7 will look at it is, are you doing something
8 that's targeted; are you particularly
9 identifying people? I think we're looking at,
10 is it something that, you know, just brings to
11 light more poverty-type situations, but there
12 are things I think we're trying to look at.
13 And so that's a probably long answer,
14 too, to say there are things on the horizon. I
15 think we're all trying to figure out whether
16 they work and what are the pros and cons because
17 it's something that's really new in Human
18 Services.
19 MR. BORNMAN: The only thing I would
20 add, I agree with the predictive analytics. The
21 modeling behind that has done some very good
22 work in terms of lowering mortality rates in the
23 areas that it's been implemented. Mostly
24 notable, I think Los Angeles County, a number of
25 years back, was really where it came out big and 80
1 had a tremendous reduction in, particularly,
2 young children dying with involvement with the
3 Children & Youth.
4 But beyond that, I have seen a few cases
5 in which there's been so much and so frequent
6 involvement with a particular family that when a
7 child is born, there was sufficient grounds to
8 actually pursue dependency right at birth, based
9 upon history. But it generally had to be fairly
10 recent history and of a nature that it's not
11 likely to have changed since the agency's last
12 involvement because, obviously, the longer it
13 goes time wise, the less value there is to that
14 history.
15 DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS: And I think to
16 that end, considering early learning as a
17 resource, we do have evidence-based home
18 visiting models, but they're not reaching nearly
19 enough families. And to the point of where they
20 are being allocated, we depend on communities to
21 tell us what their needs are.
22 But being able to use something like
23 predictive analytics and data that will allow us
24 to have a much more targeted approach, to have
25 an evidence-based home visiting program, such as 81
1 Nurse Family Partnership that works with parents
2 as they're pregnant even, before birth, can
3 provide an intervention, I think, that can
4 really support a holistic family and stable
5 environment for children as they're growing.
6 But none of that is going to work if the
7 programs under my auspices aren't speaking to
8 one another. So home visiting, while it can
9 certainly support the holistic family
10 environment, we know that children need to
11 continue to learn and grow and thrive. So to
12 the end that OCDEL can support all of our
13 programs in working with one another so that we
14 have a life course option for children, so as
15 they're moving from home visiting into whether
16 it's Early Head Start or a child-care program or
17 Pre-K Counts, those adults in that child's life
18 are connected and speaking the same language and
19 are really building a support wall around the
20 children, because we know that's ultimately what
21 breaks the cycle, is when children have the
22 healthiest possible start that they can have,
23 but that it continues well into K to 12, as
24 well.
25 So we're really thinking in terms of 82
1 integration and alignment at OCDEL, but beyond,
2 as well, in working with our partners in DHS and
3 are really challenging ourselves to ways we can
4 do that at the local level.
5 MINORITY CHAIRMAN CONKLIN: Thank you.
6 Thank you, Madam chairwoman.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
8 Thank you. You sparked a million questions, but
9 I'm supposed to be responsible. I'm the
10 Chairperson, so I'm not asking.
11 We'll move to Representative Madden.
12 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Thank you,
13 Chairwoman.
14 I would first like to say thank you to
15 Mrs. Powell for her passionate and informative
16 testimony. If I may share a quick personal
17 story, my mother struggled with alcohol
18 addiction, and by six months, I was being raised
19 by my father and my grandmother. And I can tell
20 you that your granddaughter will be forever
21 grateful to you and your grandfather -- husband,
22 I'm sorry -- and her grandfather.
23 But your testimony sparked a question in
24 my mind for Secretary Utz, actually. So
25 Mrs. Powell talked -- spoke about, you know, not 83
1 really being able to get the services that she
2 felt she needed through Children & Youth and
3 that there was a real disconnect to, you know,
4 the statistics and the things that you and
5 Secretary Morris were speaking about.
6 How do you think we can, you know, get
7 down to the local Children & Youth and those
8 counselors and provide them with more
9 information and resources and training, so that
10 when Mrs. Powell goes for help, she's feeling
11 like she's actually receiving all the knowledge
12 and all the information and counseling that she
13 can get to help her?
14 DEPUTY SECRETARY UTZ: Yes. And I think
15 that's one of the things that we want to talk
16 about, right? So I think that anybody who calls
17 a Children & Youth agency should at least be
18 able to get some answers to their questions,
19 right? So I actually, as she was testifying, I
20 had tons of questions for her, but I know that
21 that's normally what we do, so I'm going to have
22 to talk to her after the hearing.
23 But I think a lot of what we have to do
24 was determine, is it placed, is the best place
25 for this program to be housed in our county 84
1 Children & Youth agencies or is it somewhere
2 else?
3 So we've heard a little bit about
4 Kinship Navigator programs, right, and other
5 community-based programs. So is there a way to
6 build the same type of program or the structure
7 that we want outside of the Children & Youth
8 agency?
9 They could talk to one another. We
10 could provide support, but I think that even she
11 talked about some of the concerns with making
12 phone calls to Children & Youth, the stigma,
13 right, that goes along with that, the challenges
14 that are there because if you're coming in to be
15 involved with our system, there are then the
16 parameters.
17 You have to be approved as a foster
18 parent. She mentioned, you know, the six-month
19 period of time to be able to get that, and it's
20 not just one agency. So I think that we
21 recognize, as well, she expressed some concerns
22 about, you know, public benefits. And so having
23 that all in the Children & Youth agency may or
24 may not be the best place. And I think that's
25 one of the things we would want to look at. 85
1 We've heard about Kinship Navigator
2 Programs. We've heard that they have worked and
3 they've been very successful. So is there a way
4 to start in a, perhaps, a structure like a
5 Kinship Navigator program, but then reach out to
6 the Children & Youth agency if something goes a
7 little bit farther down the road?
8 So I think there are a lot of things
9 that we could do and then engage in
10 conversations. And I'm not sure, we always kind
11 of look to one agency to fix all of the
12 problems, but I think it's much beyond that,
13 right?
14 So we've talked about a lot of this is
15 emerging and going much broader than just the
16 substance use disorder, right? It's starting
17 there, but it's having ripple effects across the
18 board. So how do we make sure that there's a
19 coordinated approach that's occurring and that
20 we're just not going to one agency to say, here,
21 you fix this solution?
22 How do we make sure that as we build
23 this, we build it as a community program that is
24 going to meet all of the needs?
25 Because the legal services, you know, 86
1 Brian talked a lot about that and how families
2 need the support from legal services aid. We've
3 heard that there's a lot of, you know, attorneys
4 that are doing pro bono work that might not be
5 tapped. And so Children & Youth agencies aren't
6 going to have all of that knowledge. And
7 they're, you know, dealing with a wide range of
8 information.
9 So is there a way to make sure that we
10 have community programs that are going to build
11 that?
12 So we might have to establish it outside
13 of just the Children & Youth agency.
14 REPRESENTATIVE MADDEN: Right. And as
15 you're speaking -- as you're speaking, I'm
16 thinking about Mrs. Powell's testimony and about
17 how, you know, that maybe Area on Aging is
18 getting into the picture, too, because there are
19 so many grandparents who are raising their
20 children.
21 And in my district, in the same
22 building, Area on Aging is right next door to
23 Children & Youth. So maybe it would be a thing
24 where grandparents are taking their
25 grandchildren to senior discount dinners, you 87
1 know, that they have throughout. We hear about
2 how uplifting and encouraging it is for seniors
3 to be exposed to young children, so we could
4 really truly make it a community effort to -- it
5 takes a village -- to raise these children, if
6 we all thought out of the box and how to best
7 serve these children and the grandparents
8 raising them.
9 Thank you for your testimony. Thank you
10 to everyone for coming out today.
11 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON:
12 Representative Solomon.
13 REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: Thank you,
14 Madam Chair. Thanks, everybody.
15 Representative Pashinski had mentioned
16 some statistics. Do you know, in Pennsylvania,
17 how we track them and whether we tease out those
18 grandparents that are cohabitating versus those
19 that are just providing child care in PA?
20 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: I think it's
21 multiple groups of sources where we're getting
22 this information, and we're trying always to
23 verify it. I think the main point that has to
24 be made here is that we're now finally coming to
25 the point that this is a problem. And I think 88
1 there are a lot of grandparents that have not
2 revealed themselves, as Chairman Watson and
3 Chairman Conklin had indicated earlier, that,
4 you know, there are some people that are just to
5 embarrassed to reveal their issue and they try
6 to deal with it alone.
7 I think the testimony by Mrs. Powell has
8 given you a bird's view. You are right there.
9 She has experienced all of this. This is the
10 same kind of testimony I've received from
11 countless other grandparents in a similar
12 situation. And she has identified all the
13 various hurdles, the roadblocks that we have.
14 Mr. Bornman recognized those in the
15 legal system. Now, the question is, can we find
16 the solutions to those roadblocks? But keeping
17 in mind, hopefully, what I tried to emphasize
18 earlier, you know, the law was created based
19 upon two loving parents that still wanted to
20 love and nurture their children, that couldn't
21 because of a circumstance. The opioid situation
22 has changed that dramatically. They physically
23 can't; mentally can't. So now the burden is now
24 on the State.
25 We talked about Nurse Family Partners. 89
1 We talked about all of those outstanding
2 programs that work. And the Nurse Family
3 Partner, taking it from prenatal into postnatal
4 and then into early intervention, pre-K. We
5 know that those prevention programs work. We
6 don't have enough resources for everything.
7 You know, we as State legislators have
8 to try to figure out where we can come up with
9 enough dollars. What I'm hoping comes out of
10 this hearing is that each one of us is going to
11 be very open and frank relative to, what do you
12 need, Mr. Bornman, what has to change?
13 Deputy Secretary Utz, say it as it is,
14 you don't have enough money for this, you don't
15 have enough people in this area. What do we
16 have to do? Because what we're trying to do is
17 prevent these kids from then becoming a larger
18 burden.
19 Now, many of us in here are old enough
20 to remember the FRAM oil filter commercial.
21 Does anybody remember the FRAM oil
22 filter commercial?
23 Well, an oil filter is really important
24 to the health of your automobile engine, or any
25 kind of engine. The advertisement was, you can 90
1 pay me now or pay me later. And the oil filter
2 was, say, $10. You can pay me $10 to preserve
3 your engine or you can pay me $3,000 to fix your
4 engine. This is where we are.
5 I think we've heard enough testimony,
6 and I think we have enough people -- and of
7 course your good leadership, on behalf of
8 Chairwoman Watson and Chairman Conklin and all
9 of the members here. I think everybody cares.
10 How are we going to fix it?
11 What are the things we need to do?
12 Where are the dollars going to come
13 from?
14 How do we prioritize it?
15 And also, the realization that we never
16 have enough resources for everything, but we can
17 certainly give it a good try.
18 REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: Thank you.
19 Mr. Bornman, you had talked about the
20 Kinship Navigator Program in other States. I'm
21 just interested how that works. What are the
22 qualifications of the folks that you're calling
23 into?
24 And then, how long do they stay with the
25 family? And is it one point of contact? 91
1 So will one person at that one agency be
2 kind of the point of contact and then navigate
3 those persons through State -- other State
4 agencies?
5 MR. BORNMAN: I can tell you that it
6 really varies state to state, in kind of what
7 that looks like. But in general, the theory and
8 the concept behind it is that it's clearing
9 house. And the level of ongoing involvement is
10 really going to based upon how the particular
11 program is set up.
12 I would have envisioned, for
13 Pennsylvania, something along the lines of a
14 Kinship Navigator Program that acts as a
15 clearing house, but also has that legal
16 component tied to it. Because as I mentioned,
17 just that opportunity to sit down and speak with
18 an attorney to really kind of understand what
19 the parameters of your rights are goes a long
20 way towards easing the discomfort and the
21 concerns that arise out of those types of
22 informal custodial arrangements.
23 I think that in and of itself would be
24 an invaluable piece to it.
25 REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: Thank you. 92
1 And Mrs. Powell, I just wanted to ask
2 you, you had a whole host of issues you brought
3 up, improvements. If there was just one, one
4 thing that we could do here in the legislature,
5 what would be the first thing?
6 MRS. POWELL: Be proactive.
7 REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: In what way?
8 MRS. POWELL: Don't go back to try to
9 fix a problem, try to prevent the problems; get
10 out of the box; communicate with each other.
11 Stop looking at the people who are trying to
12 help fix the problem as your resource, open up
13 the resources you already have. Base it on the
14 need; the need is with the child.
15 REPRESENTATIVE SOLOMON: Thank you,
16 everyone. Thank you, Madam Chair.
17 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Yes. And I
18 think, Representative Pashinski, you had the
19 bill, the Navigator Program. So why don't you
20 -- I think he would have some more information
21 for Representative Solomon.
22 REPRESENTATIVE PASHINSKI: I just wanted
23 to make sure that we understand, the Kinship
24 Navigator was primarily a source where
25 grandparents could relate to that source, but 93
1 that was generally a computer. We did the same
2 thing here.
3 When the Senate didn't pass what we were
4 proposing, we then organized our own computer
5 service so that our grandparents could go on my
6 website and be able to navigate through that.
7 It's not actually like we're having a person
8 that will be your chief counselor and will take
9 you through the source.
10 So I want to make sure that it's clear.
11 We are now, on our own, trying to take what we
12 have on the network and try to put it in a
13 booklet form, because, again, most -- many
14 grandparents don't have a computer, many don't
15 know how to operate it. So we're trying to find
16 other ways that we can get the information to
17 them.
18 Again, as Representative Watson pointed
19 out, in the northeast, we at least have a
20 community network, a support system, where then,
21 when I get a call from grandparents that are
22 having difficulty, I will refer them to certain
23 people in the district that will then help them.
24 But, you know, the idea is to demonstrate that
25 this is not just in the northeast, it's all over 94
1 Pennsylvania, and as we said, all over the
2 United States. So it's incumbent upon us to
3 address that, you know, with a lot more fervor.
4 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you
5 for adding to that. And yes, I think we need to
6 remember that, as good as we think, oh, we can
7 put everything on the computer, lots of people
8 are not computer literate. It's expensive to
9 have that wireless in your home. So we need to
10 have ways and systems, and certainly, I think
11 your group serves as a model, that even
12 regionally, we need to start networking people
13 together.
14 Representative Conklin and I both have
15 had experience in county government. I just
16 said I don't think Children & Youth would be --
17 to house all of this, but a county courthouse
18 could house all of this and be the focal point
19 for, muck like OCDEL does, combining resources
20 together and serving as a point where you could
21 go.
22 I particularly like the idea of a
23 resource book with a basic framework that would
24 be statewide, but then have the specifics for
25 your local county where you go, and certainly a 95
1 list of attorneys or your local Bar association,
2 that they have a group that's ready and can
3 advise on domestic relations issues, and they'll
4 work pro bono and set something up. Gee, and
5 where might you meet? You can meet at the
6 county courthouse.
7 And commissioners are responsible --
8 Mr. Bornman, I was secretly getting to you -- to
9 take that back. But indeed, having -- I was the
10 deputy administrator for a county commissioner,
11 so I'm familiar, but they are responsible under
12 the law, under the county code for the welfare
13 of children, Children & Youth.
14 This, in some ways, would fall under it.
15 We would give them a place to be. That gives a
16 focal point to our grandparents of where they
17 can go. And following your model, which is a
18 good one, we set up services there or at least
19 people then that they can contact because
20 support groups are good.
21 And I think in thinking out of the box,
22 Mrs. Powell, I would like to say that I also
23 think we involve a network of churches that have
24 outreach and groups like that, civic groups,
25 certainly our PTAs in schools, if you have that, 96
1 that they become more aware and kind of serve as
2 a focal point to pull people together because we
3 need to get rid of the stigma of, well, then,
4 something went wrong in your family.
5 No, nothing went wrong in your family.
6 These things happen, which is frightening.
7 Representative Conklin said it best, but by the
8 grace of God. And that's true, God, fate, I'm
9 not sure why, if you're spared or not. But we
10 all know somebody in our extended family that
11 hasn't been, particularly with the opioid
12 crisis. And the sad part is, we are talking
13 about it and it still grows. That's the scary
14 part.
15 Children still need that voice, and they
16 need to be protected. I would argue that we
17 need a special category for these grandparents
18 because they're not foster parents. They need
19 their own ways. Legal has to respond to that to
20 give them greater access or control, without
21 declaring my son to be unfit or whatever it
22 might be. I think we should be doing those
23 things, recognizing it, and then the system
24 works better.
25 And I am sure that our -- I think our 97
1 last person with questions is
2 Representative Toohil, who always has more ideas
3 than I do. So Representative Toohil, go ahead.
4 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHIL: Thank you,
5 Madam Chair. And thank you to
6 Representative Pashinski for championing this
7 cause. It's so important.
8 We hear, with the drug epidemic,
9 constantly, daily, these families that are in
10 crisis. And I think that the grandparents are a
11 great model of what's going on. And obviously
12 you have aunts and uncles that are stepping in,
13 family members that are stepping in with the
14 same issue. They're like, our kids are already
15 in college. And they're having to fight for
16 nieces and nephews, just like Lotte Powell.
17 Wonderful testimony. Thank you for
18 coming here and talking to us today. Because
19 really, only when you're living it can you
20 adequately convey to people what kind of issues
21 you're having. There's a -- so you have
22 families in crisis and then you have a lack of
23 communication. And the system is so complex, so
24 it's hard for the caseworker -- when you get a
25 caseworker -- they're not always able to say, 98
1 well, you know, it's going to go exactly like
2 this.
3 And sometimes I think they have to be
4 stand-offish, because caseworkers, at the same
5 time that they're dealing with the foster
6 family, they are also having to, on the other
7 side of things, try to provide, say, you're
8 supposed to go to this class, and you're
9 supposed go to these services, and you're
10 supposed to attend visitation. So you have
11 these caseworkers that are getting pulled in
12 both directions.
13 So you have the foster family situation,
14 the situation of parental rights and what the
15 parents need to be afforded, and the child just
16 gets lost in the mix. One thing I think our
17 Committee needs to look at is when you're
18 looking at OCDEL and early intervention and all
19 of those services, you have foster grandparents
20 that have no idea that they can get free
21 subsidized child care. If the foster
22 grandparents are living in the house, they might
23 be denied that.
24 And I think we need to look at, under
25 the CCIS child-care subsidy, that foster 99
1 children should just be immediately approved and
2 immediately able to go into zero to three early
3 intervention because they get all of these
4 experiences with children. They get the
5 stability of daycare and learning, and that's
6 why so many of them are developmentally delayed
7 because they've been pulled in and out of
8 school.
9 Sometimes the 7-year-olds, 10-year-olds,
10 they've missed I don't know how many days of
11 school. And foster parents don't know. So
12 there's a lack of written foster parent rights,
13 and I guess they can always go under the
14 auspices of best interest of the child, that if
15 it's the best interest of the child -- because
16 these foster grandparents are putting everything
17 out there, and then these cases will go on.
18 They'll languish for three years, and then a
19 putative father can come in three years later
20 and just upend everything. And the foster
21 grandparent doesn't have any first right of
22 refusal to say, like, hey, I've been here. I've
23 been doing this for the best interest of the
24 child.
25 So I think immediate child-care 100
1 subsidies. I'm just trying to process what
2 Lotte was kind of saying. And the foster parent
3 right, or foster grandparent rights, we need to
4 look at.
5 And even right now, as we're sitting
6 here, it's like one of the first day of summer
7 for so many foster parents and foster
8 grandparents. They're probably like -- the
9 children are out of school, and they're going to
10 go three months without, probably, summer camp
11 because nobody can afford it. Everybody is so
12 busy running between parental visitations and
13 court and caseworkers coming to your house, that
14 these kids are not getting counseling.
15 The, I think foster grandparents, you
16 just had to fight against your own child for
17 best interest of your grandchild. That's
18 traumatic and stressful, and you have your own
19 emotional issues because of that. And then you
20 have a child that could have been neglected, you
21 know, for three years living with drug addict
22 parents before they were able to get Children &
23 Youth to come in and help. So there needs to be
24 funding for all of this counseling.
25 There are victims. The children are 101
1 victims. They should be afforded counseling.
2 So there's a lot that we can do, I think, if we
3 break it out that way.
4 And I guess my question was for
5 Deputy Secretary Morris. Do you, under OCDEL,
6 do you deal with CCIS?
7 Because I guess nobody knows it's CCIS,
8 and now it's too late. The foster grandparents
9 just got their child, their grandchild, placed
10 with them; it's too late for them. Sometimes a
11 nice county will cover summer camp or child-care
12 services, and then you can apply and wait six
13 months for your CCIS to be approved.
14 DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS: So CCIS is
15 under OCDEL. We oversee all the CCIS agencies.
16 Just to clarify, a family can apply for a
17 child-care subsidy at any time of the year. It
18 does not have to be tied to the school year.
19 However, we do have a significant wait list for
20 eligible families.
21 Currently, we're at almost 13,000
22 families that qualify for child-care subsidy,
23 which means they have been determined eligible,
24 which means they're meeting either the work
25 requirement or the work and job training 102
1 requirement, which is required by the Federal
2 mandate of the Child Care Development Block
3 Grant, as well as the income threshold of being
4 200 percent or below the Federal poverty level.
5 So to that end, we do know we have a
6 great need, not just for our foster grandparents
7 and foster parents, but for our families as a
8 whole around child-care subsidy in the
9 Commonwealth. In terms of getting resources to
10 our grandparents and thinking proactively, I'd
11 be very interested to work with Ms. Powell to
12 learn more about how you were able to find out
13 about Early Head Start or child-care subsidy, if
14 you heard about that at all.
15 We are in the process right now of
16 rethinking of how we do business of child care
17 across the Commonwealth. We're getting ready to
18 release a competitive application for what we're
19 calling the Early Learning Resources Centers,
20 and really trying to think, from the experience
21 of the child of the family and of the caregiver.
22 The Early Learning Resources Centers
23 will be community level resources centers that
24 are meant to have a no wrong door approach for
25 families that are actively looking for any type 103
1 of support service that's in the early learning
2 spectrum, including early intervention for their
3 children. And that would be -- those
4 applications should be released, the RFA should
5 be released very shortly, with the idea that
6 they would roll out in 2018-'19, but I would be
7 very interested to hear your thoughts on that
8 application and how that could look at the
9 community level, in terms of making sure that
10 children are receiving the services that they so
11 sorely need and deserve.
12 REPRESENTATIVE TOOHIL: Excellent. We
13 like you already. If you want to provide us,
14 hopefully, with the people that are on the wait
15 list, that 13,000, and maybe how that number has
16 fluctuated over the past, like, 2-year period,
17 and just what that would cost us, it would be
18 wonderful.
19 If you can provide it in writing, then
20 maybe we could parse through it as a Committee.
21 DEPUTY SECRETARY MORRIS: I can
22 certainly provide that. I can tell you we're at
23 historic highs for the wait list. The wait list
24 has not been this high ever. And we have seen a
25 fluctuation where it's grown substantially over 104
1 the past six months. And so we try to track
2 trend. It's often hard to get down to what
3 exactly drives the wait list because it's a
4 mixed bag of reasons, but certainly we are
5 experiencing record highs in terms of how many
6 families are being determined eligible, but we
7 don't have the resources to meet that need.
8 And I can provide in writing what that
9 would cost.
10 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: All right.
11 Thank you, Representative Toohil.
12 Last one, because we are under the gun
13 for time because session is about to start --
14 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Thank you,
15 Madam Chairwoman.
16 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON:
17 Representative Dan Miller.
18 REPRESENTATIVE MILLER: Real quick with
19 it, I appreciate all of the testimony here
20 today. I just want to mention a couple of quick
21 things. We've heard a bunch of comments today,
22 you know, I would say that the overall -- we
23 have the best interest concern for the child,
24 and we also have the legal precedent of who has
25 parental rights. 105
1 So the parental rights, both in our
2 statute and clearly identified through the
3 Supreme Court, is a guiding issue for us here
4 with how you're combining these things. You're
5 also, I think, dancing between two different
6 worlds.
7 I don't want to go through foster care;
8 I do want to go through foster care. And again,
9 whether we like it or not, this body has created
10 that difference and distinction with how it
11 attaches funding and how it attaches other
12 requirements, too. So there are too many of
13 them for me to say in a minute, but I would just
14 respectively say that there was no -- in my time
15 as a county solicitor -- there was no more
16 confusing or complicated cases than dealt with
17 grandparent intervention in one way or the
18 other. They were the most confusing aspects to
19 parse our way through, in relation to who
20 actually had parental rights, and what the
21 government has to prove in order to impact,
22 impede or change those situations.
23 So for those of us who are always
24 interested, or in particular, recognize the
25 importance of parental rights, I would just 106
1 highlight that this is not a small issue.
2 The other thing that I'll quickly say to
3 it is funding across the board. The starting
4 caseworker in Allegheny County makes $28,000.
5 The parent advocates now, the parent advocates
6 who are in Allegheny County right now, do you
7 know how much the State pays or helps pay for
8 them? Nothing. Zero.
9 So I love the Kinship Navigator ideas.
10 I think that could be very helpful, and I
11 definitely think more information is important.
12 But just to emphasize the point that we have
13 here, established in our statute and in our law,
14 the importance of parental rights in deciding
15 when the government can intervene, but we do not
16 fund it at all.
17 So now we have these people -- you know,
18 if you can get away with making $37,000 maybe
19 out of law school starting over at the parent
20 advocates starting in Allegheny County,
21 congratulations. You've got $37,000 and a big
22 caseload to deal with.
23 So I just want to reference both points.
24 I apologize for the shortness of time with it,
25 and I appreciate the add-ons here at the end. 107
1 But your issues -- and ma'am, thank you so much
2 for your testimony -- big impactful issues, that
3 to me, were just scratching the surface of how
4 to integrate and work between the non-dependency
5 world and the dependency world.
6 Thank you, Madam chairman.
7 MAJORITY CHAIRWOMAN WATSON: Thank you,
8 Representative.
9 And a big thank you to each of you for
10 your time, for your expertise, your willingness
11 to participate. And by the way, if you thought
12 this was a one-time deal, no. We'll be back
13 talking to each of you.
14 This Committee has taken this charge,
15 and you can see, will not let it go. It is,
16 like all of that spaghetti that somehow got
17 stuck at the bottom, but one by one, we're going
18 to pull those strands out of that pot and we
19 will fix things. Maybe not in my lifetime, but
20 we're going to fix them.
21 You have to fix it?
22 All right. We're going to fix it in my
23 lifetime, which would be very good.
24 But very seriously, we need to fix it
25 all for the children because these children need 108
1 a voice, and they need to be protected and safe
2 and in a permanent place where they can thrive.
3 Thank you very much.
4 (Whereupon, the hearing concluded at
5 11:00 a.m.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
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3 I hereby certify that the proceedings
4 are contained fully and accurately in the notes
5 taken by me on the within proceedings and that
6 this is a correct transcript of the same.
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10 Tracy L. Markle, Court Reporter
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