Vol. 788 Thursday No. 82 18 January 2018

PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDEROFBUSINESS

Questions Freedom of Religion and Belief ...... 725 Brexit: Trade Agreements ...... 727 Public Health: Strength and Balance Programme ...... 730 Transport for the North ...... 732 European Union (Withdrawal) Bill First Reading...... 734 Business of the House Timing of Debates ...... 735 United States: Foreign Policy Motion to Take Note...... 735 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy Question for Short Debate...... 781 Green Finance Motion to Take Note...... 798

Grand Committee Education: Modern Foreign Languages...... GC 1 Defence Review ...... GC 17 Dental Health: Children...... GC 31 MV “Empire Windrush”...... GC 47 UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding ...... GC 63 Questions for Short Debate Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2018-01-18

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No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2018, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 725 Freedom of Religion and Belief[18 JANUARY 2018] Freedom of Religion and Belief 726

House of Lords Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the APPG. I certainly Thursday 18 January 2018 support its work and its report, but religion is often 11 am used as a cover for oppressing other minorities,particularly the LGBT community. A charity I am a patron of, an Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Durham. HIV centre in the East End of London, is working with faith groups on practical ways we can build Freedom of Religion and Belief respect and address concerns. Does the Foreign Office see the benefit of this sort of work, and is it supporting Question such work in other countries? 11.06 am Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The noble Lord knows Asked by Lord Suri I agree with him totally. We have seen exactly those Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment kinds of initiatives working domestically, which are of they have made of the recommendations of the great value. In discussions we have had—and he will report of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on be aware of this—I have often said that faith communities Freedom of Religion and Belief, Article 18: From should approach all these issues, including those of Rhetoric to Reality. LGBT rights, as defined human rights issues. When we look at these issues through the prism of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth religion, the issues of fairness, equality and justice Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): My Lords, should prevail. Her Majesty’s Government warmly welcome the report, Lord Singh of Wimbledon (CB): My Lords, as a which is well informed and demonstrates the deep member of the APPG for Freedom of Religion or commitment of its authors. I wrote to the all-party Belief, I fully support the need to look beyond rhetoric parliamentary group on 8 December with an initial towards positive action to protect freedom of belief response to the recommendations, several of which and human rights. Will the Minister agree that we have already been reflected in the Government’sapproach urgently need to decouple the linking of trade with to freedom of religion or belief. As we continue to human rights? Only last September, the then Defence push forward on this issue, we will continue to reflect Secretary,Sir Michael Fallon, cautioned against criticising on the recommendations made in this excellent report. human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia because of the Lord Suri (Con): I thank my noble friend the Minister danger of losing contracts. Does the Minister agree for his response. He will know that the Government with the Soviet human rights activist Andrei Sakharov, stated in their response to the APPG report that the who said that we must always be even-handed in our stabilisation unit meets with religious and other key pursuit of human rights? actors overseas to better understand FoRB. I am Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I believe that is our pleased the Government have expressed a desire to approach. Through our diplomatic corps, to whom I look for ways to strengthen this work. Can the Minister pay great tribute, we are able to have not only public explain how information gathered in these meetings is but, importantly, private and candid discussions currently being fed into government programming, with countries around the world on the importance and to government posts, to help better understand of human rights and the equality of human rights. and tackle patterns of religious persecution? Can he The other area of opportunity where I believe the UK also inform your Lordships’ House how he is tracking can play a key role is that, as we build democratic and assessing the responses from ambassadors and institutions and countries look towards their constitutions, high commissioners to the letters he sent, which asked those constitutions must reflect equal human rights what they are doing to advance freedom of religion for all. and belief? Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, as a founding Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I am pleased to inform member of the APPG, I thank the Minister for his my noble friend, and indeed the House in general, that response to the report. Can he provide details about there is very much cross-government co-ordination in the £600,000-worth of projects funded by the Magna this respect. I am delighted that, in our approach to Carta fund which the Government have said have led the importance of focus on freedom of religion and directly to positive freedom of religion or belief outcomes belief, there is underlying support, by colleagues across in 20 countries? If they are so positive, what will the DfID in particular, on ensuring that that essential Government do to ensure that the principles behind element of our human rights provision is also understood those projects will be spread elsewhere? across the world. On the specific issue of the different posts, I wrote to every post shortly after taking up the Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: First, through the Magna position of Minister for Human Rights, and in that Carta fund we have been working in our priority regard we have had a positive response. Most recently, countries to ensure that freedom of religion and belief together with my right honourable friend Mark Field is raised, not just directly but—a point made earlier by MP, the Minister for Asia, I wrote to each high the noble Lord, Lord Collins—by building and working commission and ambassador for the priority countries with civil society organisations and human rights defenders of Asia, and we have received very positive responses within those countries to ensure that they have political, about the importance of prioritising freedom of religion diplomatic and financial support. In further support and belief in our diplomatic efforts across the world. of those objectives, I am delighted, as I said earlier, 727 Freedom of Religion and Belief[LORDS] Brexit: Trade Agreements 728

[LORD AHMAD OF WIMBLEDON] The Minister of State, Department for International that we are working hand in glove with our colleagues Trade (Baroness Fairhead) (Con): My Lords, after at DfID. There is an added fund now of £12 million leaving the EU, it will be the UK Government, not which is targeted at development assistance but also at the EU, who will decide what trade agreements to ensuring that human rights, including freedom of religion pursue and what the contents of those agreements will or belief, are enshrined in our projects and support be. Decisions on all future trade agreements will be across the world. made here in the UK, based on what is in the best interests of the UK. The Lord Bishop of Durham: My Lords, noting recommendation 5, will Her Majesty’s Government Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, unless we provide detail about how DfID assesses its partners’ go for unilateral free trade, I assume that trade commitment to freedom of religion and belief when agreements will be a bargain between the UK and determining where the funding goes around the others, in which we will have to make concessions, world? which will affect domestic law. Does the Minister recall that the Indian Government, for example, have Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The right reverend made it clear that they would expect concessions on Prelate is right to draw attention to the detail. I have freedom of movement, which would affect British written specifically on that point to the APPG. There migration policy, in return for a trade agreement? are assessment criteria that colleagues at DfID apply. Does she recall the US Commerce Secretary saying Those ensure that freedom of religion and belief, as that he would expect the UK to move towards well as other elements of the wider human rights accepting US regulations, instead of EU regulations, agenda, as I said, are protected in the support that we in phytosanitary and other areas, in return for a trade provide. agreement? Does she recall that the NAFTA trade agreement allows US multinationals to sue in Lord Polak (Con): My Lords, can I bring us back foreign courts, and that Eli Lilly is currently suing in home and welcome this week’s announcement by Sajid Canadian courts, demanding that Canada changes its Javid that the Government will fund a new strand of domestic patent law? Are those not all incursions on the Lessons from Auschwitz programme in support sovereignty? of the Holocaust Educational Trust and the Union of Jewish Students to tackle anti-Semitism, prejudice and intolerance on campus? Does the Minister agree with Baroness Fairhead: I thank the noble Lord for his me that it may be a welcome initiative if each political question. What I can say is that, for the first time in party—some more than others—would ensure that all 40 years, we will have the ability to operate an independent future candidates be taken on such an educational trade policy. We will be negotiating on behalf of the visit before they enter Parliament? UK, in the interests of the UK. Clearly, any trade agreement is a negotiation between two parties, but we Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My noble friend is will always ensure that all parts of the UK are taken quite right to raise the important issue of anti-Semitism. into account when we negotiate to benefit the UK as a It is a scourge that we all despise, and it is important whole. That is why we would undertake those trade that we come together and raise our voices wherever agreements. we see religion being used to discriminate, be it anti- Semitism or Islamophobia—or any particular view or Lord Grocott (Lab): Will the Minister join me belief. On the specific point of Auschwitz, if I may in warmly welcoming the concern of the noble provide a personal anecdote, I remember visiting Lord, Lord Wallace, about the importance of Auschwitz with schoolchildren just before I took on parliamentary sovereignty, and does she therefore my ministerial responsibilities at the Department for look forward, as I certainly do, to receiving the Communities and Local Government. As anyone who noble Lord’s support when we deal with the Act that has been there knows, while we have heard about it most significantly diminished British parliamentary and may have seen films about it, the first experience sovereignty, namely, the 1972 European Communities you have is chilling, and then you reflect on the importance Act? of what is in front of you. I totally agree with my noble friend: it ensures that your mind becomes focused, Baroness Fairhead: We have made a decision as a that never means never, and that we never allow such a country that we will leave the EU, and as part of that genocide to take place again. we will be leaving the jurisdiction of the European court. Clearly, what is of concern is that its rulings Brexit: Trade Agreements are binding on all national courts, including those Question of the UK, as we agreed. However, when entering into international agreements, no state has ever 11.14 am submitted to the direct jurisdiction of a court in which it does not have representation—and we Asked by Lord Wallace of Saltaire have representation. When we have the ability to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they enter into new international agreements, our aim intend to avoid limitations on United Kingdom will be to make sure that we keep all our sovereignty in negotiating trade agreements with protections for the environment and human rights. other states after the United Kingdom leaves the Those protections are important, as we maintain those European Union. agreements. 729 Brexit: Trade Agreements [18 JANUARY 2018] Public Health 730

Lord Garel-Jones (Con): On the subject of Public Health: Strength and Balance parliamentary sovereignty, does my noble friend not Programme agree with the Supreme Court that, while Parliament authorised the referendum and the Government are Question therefore right to pursue the discussions that they are 11.21 am pursuing, it is also the case, as the Supreme Court has ruled, that the outcome of those negotiations must be Asked by Lord Jordan laid before Parliament for approval? To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to provide local authorities with sufficient Baroness Fairhead: As my noble friend said, this is a resources to enable them to provide universal access matter that is still under discussion in the other place, to the Strength and Balance Programme for adults and that is what is happening. over 65.

Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB): Does the Minister not TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department agree that the question from the noble Lord, Lord of Health and Social Care (Lord O’Shaughnessy) (Con): Wallace, appears to be misplaced, in that the most My Lords,we are providing £16 billion to local authorities onerous trade agreement can never abrogate sovereignty? to spend on public health during the course of this Parliament. It is for local authorities to determine Baroness Fairhead: I thank the noble Lord for his their spending priorities, reflecting the needs of their input. Yes, the ability of a country to regulate on its populations. The Chief Medical Officer recommends own behalf in the public interest is well recognised in that adults undertake strength and balance activities international law. Therefore, we would expect to be on at least two days a week. Most local authorities able to continue to regulate in our national interest. In provide opportunities for these activities within their the terms of our agreements, that is what we will be falls prevention programmes. achieving in our agreements—going for the UK’s best interests. Lord Jordan (Lab): I thank the Minister for his reply and declare an interest as deputy president of Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): The EU ROSPA. Will the Minister acknowledge that it is the trade deals have been underpinned by a commitment failure to tackle adequately the chronic causes that to human rights, to public health, to safe food and to means a quarter of a million elderly people attend fair trade, not just in the national interest but in the accident and emergency each year with fall-related interest of fairness across the world. It has been leading injuries, which makes an NHS crisis inevitable when on that. Can the Minister guarantee that none of these seasonal illness strikes the same social group? To ease rights will be in jeopardy as we negotiate new trade the unacceptable burden on A&E departments, will he deals with third countries? urge the Government to give more tangible support to local authorities and to age-related and safety Baroness Fairhead: I thank the noble Baroness for organisations whose work with elderly people, through that input. It is true that, within the EU treaties, our what they call strength and balance exercise-based trade agreements have been underpinned by really programmes, can and does significantly reduce the deep and enforceable environmental and human rights risk of injuries to those taking part? protections. There is an absolute commitment by the Government that those will be maintained as we go Lord O’Shaughnessy: The noble Lord is quite right forward. to point out the importance of preventing falls. Around 95% of hip fractures come about through falls, at Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD): My Lords, medicines, particular cost and pain to the individual, of course, chemicals and aviation are a fundamental part of the but also to the wider economy as a whole. I should British economy and will be key elements of any trade point out that Public Health England supports a agreements going forward. Can the Minister confirm number of activities, one of which is a partnership that it is the Government’s position to propose that with Sport England that has trained 5,000 health those sectors will continue to be under EU regulation, professionals in delivering physical activities, including rather than UK regulation? Any future trade agreements strength and balance work. I agree that more needs to will therefore have to comply with EU regulations, be done at local authority level, particularly as we over which the UK will not have a say, and those have an ageing population, but there is good work components will be under the ongoing auspices of the going on at the local level. European Court of Justice. Baroness Jolly (LD): My Lords, in parts of Cornwall Baroness Fairhead: I cannot give that assurance to there has been real success with the strength and the noble Lord, as it has not been agreed. What I can balance programme, with a huge reduction in falls. We give an assurance on is that the UK has been at the all know that prevention is always better and very forefront of the highest standards for public cheaper than the cure. Can the Minister tell the House safety and the environment, not just for the UK but, what work has been done to determine how much as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, said, for the could be saved for the NHS as a result of a total world. We will continue that commitment because it is rollout of this programme and why reductions to local an absolutely critical part of the belief of, I think, all authority public health budgets are jeopardising such parts of this House. programmes? 731 Public Health [LORDS] Transport for the North 732

Lord O’Shaughnessy: I have not seen an extrapolation which I know we all welcomed. That money is particularly of the benefits the noble Baroness talks about but they focused on older people and preventing falls, which is would clearly be significant. There are a number of what we want to see as part of that programme too. schemes going on at a local level, which it is important to point out. One of them, which we have discussed Lord Elton (Con): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord before, is the “Dance to Health” programme that Jordan, has raised a matter that is of close interest to a started with six pilots two years ago. That is now a large number of noble Lords. I wonder whether it nationwide scheme across England and Wales. Local would be worth considering having access to the authorities should look at precisely that kind of activity. programme to which he refers in the Palace of Public Health England is committed to making sure Westminster. that local authorities understand the Chief Medical Officer’stargets, so that we see more of these programmes Lord O’Shaughnessy: My noble friend makes an taking place. extremely good suggestion and I look forward to talking to him about that. Perhaps he could lead such a class. Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): My Lords, I declare my interest as president of the Chartered Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab): My Lords, in addition Society of Physiotherapy. There is evidence that every to the suggestions that have been made, perhaps I £1 spent on physiotherapy can save £1.50 on the cost could pass on a tip: playing tennis is quite good for of a fall along the whole trajectory. There is also this sort of thing. evidence that targeted, multifactorial risk assessment of people at particular risk can decrease falls by Lord O’Shaughnessy: Indeed it is, as are other things 60%. Therefore, will the Minister make sure that falls such as yoga, tai chi and—believe it or not—carrying prevention is viewed across the whole of the NHS and shopping bags. not only delegated to local authorities and programmes outside, because that would miss some of the people Lord Kakkar (CB): I declare my interest as chairman who are at the highest risk of falls? of University College London Partners. What assessment have the Government made of the provision of Lord O’Shaughnessy: I am grateful to the noble accountable care organisations to drive the integration Baroness for pointing out the benefits of physiotherapy. across primary care, secondary care and social care to She might be aware of a scheme in Middlesbrough achieve the kinds of objectives that are the subject of that is providing for people who have fallen a precise this question? pathway from physio into community activities involving strength and balance work. As ever, one of Lord O’Shaughnessy: The noble Lord makes an the challenges is to make sure that all local authorities incredibly important point. We know that we want an know about such programmes and put them in place. integrated health service, particularly as we have older They are not necessarily expensive, but they take a bit people with comorbidities using a range of services. of time. I will make sure that Public Health England is The five-year forward view—NHS England’sown strategy taking that attitude of spreading good practice across for the future—talks about how that integration will the country. take place through what the noble Lord calls accountable care organisations or systems. We are moving ahead with these: indeed, the most recent Budget is providing Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords, NICE’s most significant capital to support that integration. This is recent and excellent quality statements in January the future of the NHS, and we all need to get behind it. 2017 offer guidance on falls and the importance of multifactorial risk assessments and interventions. These interventions require resources, particularly from social Transport for the North care specialists and public health workers, who we Question know are at the sharp end because of the financial pressure the Government have put on local authority 11.29 am funding and the successive reductions of public health Asked by Lord Greaves budgets.Now that the Secretary of State has responsibility To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support for social care, will he therefore ensure that strength they are providing in relation to Transport for the and balance programmes are properly resourced? When North’s draft Strategic Transport Plan, published will NICE next update its statistics on the uptake of on 16 January. guidance on this matter? TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department Lord O’Shaughnessy: I will write to the noble Baroness forTransport(BaronessSugg)(Con):MyLords,Transport with specifics on the NICE guidelines,which are incredibly for the North’s draft strategic transport plan is an important because they establish best practice. Of important step forward towards the north setting out course, it is then incumbent on professionals to follow its vision and priorities for transport with one voice. that best practice. We know that public health budgets We have committed up to £260 million for TfN to have been under pressure, but local authorities are still establish itself as England’s first statutory sub-national getting £16 billion over five years. That is a lot of transport body,to develop the business case for Northern money and they can use some of it to focus on such Powerhouse Rail, and to implement smart ticketing activities. Moreover, in the spring Budget last year, across the north of England. Weare providing substantial there were big increases in the social care budget, technical support at official level. 733 Transport for the North[18 JANUARY 2018] European Union (Withdrawal) Bill 734

Lord Greaves (LD): My Lords, the strategic transport Lord Whitby (Con): My Lords, the Midlands is the plan for the north covers the whole of the north of largest economic area outside London. It attracts England, and that is a good thing. However, it is based more inward investment and creates more start-up on the seven or eight largest cities in the north of businesses than anywhere in the United Kingdom England and has very little to say about what I would outside the capital. Its companies export to 178 countries call the areas at the edges and the places in between, worldwide, and it is still the only region in the United particularly smaller towns and rural areas. Does the Kingdom with a trading surplus with China. In order Minister agree that if all the proposals that are put to capitalise on and build on this robust achievement forward and implied in this document were to be and complement the Government’s growth agenda, carried out, the cost at today’s prices would certainly will the Minister say whether Midlands Connect can be more than £100 billion? Does the Government’s benefit from devolution arrangements similar to those enthusiasm for this imply that their previous policy of Transport for the North? that such schemes were really considered only if they were in London or the south-east has now been changed? Baroness Sugg: Yes, my Lords. We fully intend to create more statutory transport bodies, and I welcome Baroness Sugg: My Lords, I am not sure that that the work of Midlands Connect in bringing together was the previous government policy.The strategy which local authorities and partners, including Highways has been set out is out for consultation, and Transport England, HS2 and Network Rail. My noble friend for the North will be speaking to people across the rightly points out the potential of the Midlands. We north to develop and finalise it. We will see the final look forward to seeing the proposal for Midlands plan in the summer and respond to it then. On the Connect, and we hope that it will become England’s noble Lord’s point about it focusing on specific cities, second statutory transport body. it actually suggests strategic development corridors that cover the whole of the north and the central Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD): My Lords,this document Pennines area, which I know will interest the noble is very ambitious and there are some very expensive Lord. I encourage everybody to contribute to that proposals. However, within it, Transport for the North consultation. talks about some of the precursors, including the Great North Rail Project—the trans-Pennine route Lord Geddes (Con): Will my noble friend update the upgrade—and indicates that it would like to see a firm House on the progress being made on the improvements commitment about that upgrade and electrification in to the A1 between Newcastle and Berwick? early 2018. That is where we have now arrived. Can the Minister give that commitment? Baroness Sugg: My Lords, the strategic road between London and Newcastle will be upgraded to a full Baroness Sugg: My Lords,we are absolutely committed motorway by the end of the year, but I am aware that to improving journeys on the trans-Pennine route, there are still issues north of Newcastle on the way up bringing in the state-of-the-art trains, longer carriages to Scotland. As I mentioned before, one of the strategic and more frequent services that the passengers would development corridors includes the east coast of Scotland like. We want to go further and are planning to spend and will be looking at exactly this project. I am aware £3 billion to upgrade the key routes between Manchester, that it may be some months before we see the final Leeds and York to give passengers those better, faster plan, and I will certainly see if we can take action and more reliable journeys. quicker. Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord Blunkett (Lab): My Lords, I have no intention Lord, Lord Greaves, for this Question because it has of storming out of your Lordships’ House, but I share caused me to look at the document. You have to get to my noble friend Lord Prescott’s concern that strategic page 86 before it says anything about money: plans that have no chance of being implemented mislead “TfN’s status as a pan-regional organisation, with a range of stakeholders but limited fiscal powers, means that a bespoke but people in the north of England into believing that credible funding and financing framework will be required. A something is about to happen. If the linked rail and substantial element of funding will come from central Government road across the Pennines linking Hull, Sheffield, Leeds, budgets.” Bradford and Newcastle is to become a reality, it will Is the Secretary of State going to buy into this plan take real government investment. Will the Minister and that substantial element of funding? speak to the beleaguered Transport Secretary about turning mythology into reality? Baroness Sugg: My Lords, absolutely—we are waiting to see the final plan which we will then of course Baroness Sugg: I am grateful to the noble Lord for consider. If the initial funding settlement for TfN does his continued presence, unlike the noble Lord, Lord not include the funding for transport projects, it will Prescott, who was not able to stay for the full launch be allocated separately from central government funds. of the plan. We have worked carefully with people from across the north on ensuring that we get the right European Union (Withdrawal) Bill balance of powers here, and we are looking forward to First Reading seeing the plan. The Secretary of State has ultimate accountability to Parliament, and with his statutory 11.36 am role, it is right that he makes the final decisions. We will be considering that project carefully, and we will The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first be ready to make the investment. time and ordered to be printed. 735 Business of the House [LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 736

Business of the House been built not just on shared interests but on shared Timing of Debates values. Today we have to face the wrenching reality that this US President seems not to share our 11.36 am values; his recent racist comments have shockingly illuminated that fact. The liberal principles that Moved by Baroness Evans of Bowes Park have underpinned every civilised age, every peaceful That the debate on the Motion in the name of period and every prosperous society are now under Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon set down attack as never before, but President Trump appears for today shall be limited to three hours and that in more aligned with those forces ranged against liberal the name of Lord Teverson to two hours. values than with those seeking to defend them. Throughout the American century we have taken Motion agreed. comfort in the fact that the leader of the western world, although flawed like the rest of us, was well United States: Foreign Policy informed, judicious and cautious about going to war. Motion to Take Note Now I fear that we have an American President who seems all too frequently ignorant of the facts, 11.36 am unpredictable, foolhardy and reckless. Bang goes my Moved by Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon invitation to the state dinner. That this House takes note of the effect of the This is frightening stuff for those who, like me, foreign policy of the United States of America on place their faith in the Atlantic alliance. So what do we inter-state relationships around the world, particularly do about it? For the moment I fear that the answer is in the light of the United Kingdom’s changing to grin and bear it in the hope that the US will find its relationships with other European countries. way back to sanity. After all, we in Britain are not entirely free of this kind of lurch into stupidity ourselves. Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon (LD): My When the battle between the America that we know Lords, I will wait for noble Lords to perform the usual and love and Donald Trump ends, I think only one exodus. My noble friend Lord Campbell of Pittenweem side will remain standing: either Donald Trump will has just said, “What we want is genesis, not exodus”— destroy American democracy as we know it or American which may well be correct. democracy will destroy Donald Trump. Personally, my I am privileged to lead this debate. For reasons that money remains on the strength of that old and deep I will not bother the House with, I have been spending democracy. a lot of time recently doing some research into the However, even if on both sides of the Atlantic we 1930s.I am struck—actually,horrified—by the similarities can find our way back to saner and safer ground, is between our suddenly turbulent and unpredictable age there something deeper going on here? The slow divergence and those years. Then as now, nationalism and of interests between Europe and the US does not date protectionism were on the rise; democracy seemed to from President Trump’s election, although that has have failed; people hungered for the government of undoubtedly accelerated the process.Even under President great men; and those who suffered most from economic Obama the US’s gaze was arguably looking more west pain felt alienated and turned towards simplistic solutions across the Pacific than east across the Atlantic. I have and strident voices. Public institutions, conventional no doubt that NATO and the Atlantic axis will remain politics and the old establishments were everywhere Europe’s most important alliance for as far ahead as mistrusted and disbelieved. Compromise was out of we can see, but it will not be the same alliance as it has fashion; the centre collapsed in favour of extremes; the been for these last 50 years. To remain strong, in my normal order of things did not function; change and view, the Atlantic relationship will have to look far even revolution was more appealing than the status more like JF Kennedy’s 1962 vision of a twin-pillar quo; and fake news—built around the effective lie—carried NATO than the present conjunction of a giant on one more weight in public discourse than rational arguments side and 21 pygmies on the other. and provable facts. Painting a lie on the side of a bus We will need a NATO that is mature enough to and driving it around the country would have seemed cope with areas where our interests do not perfectly very normal in those days, too. elide. We should not be shy, for example, of calling Perhaps the last time that we stood as close to out Israel for its illegal occupations just because large-scale conflict as we stand now in the world was Washington chooses not to, or of strenuously supporting at the height of the Cold War—but then we had a the Iran nuclear deal just because Mr Trump wants comfort which I fear we do not enjoy today. Then, the to wreck it. I have no doubt that the United States western liberal democracies stood together in defence will remain the world’s most powerful nation for the of our interests and our shared values. Now it pains next decade or more, but the context in which she me to say that, under President Trump, the most holds her power has now totally changed. The powerful of our number thinks that standing together American century was one of the few periods in is less important than going it alone, that the abdication history when the world was monopolar and of leadership and responsibility is preferable to engaging dominated by a single colossus—when all the in the international space and that collective action compasses had to point to Washington to define their takes second place to “America First”. position for or against. Now we are moving into a Throughout the long years of the American century multipolar world, more like Europe in the 19th century we have taken great comfort in the fact that our than the last decades of the 20th. A foreign policy for alliance with the United States and its Presidents has the next 50 years based on what we have done for the 737 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 738 last 50 will be a foreign policy clumsily out of tune It is too little recognised just how much the terms of with the times—which I think is exactly where we our existence as Europeans have changed over the last currently are. two decades. Europe now faces an isolationist US President to our west, the most aggressive Russian Everything has changed in the world—except, it President of recent times to our east, and, all around sometimes seems, Britain’s view of it. British foreign us, economic powers now growing up, some already policy in the post-Trump era will have to be much stronger than any single European nation. The right more flexible, much more subtle and much more capable reaction to this new context of our existence is not to of building relationships on shared interests—even allow ourselves to be broken up and scattered, but to with those beyond the Atlantic club, and even with deepen European co-operation and co-ordination. This those with whom we do not necessarily share values—than way only does our country’s best interest lie. So, inside the simplicities of the last decades, when we only the single market and customs union or out, inside the needed to snuggle close to our friendly neighbourhood EU or separated from it, our only sensible foreign superpower to be safe and powerful. policy is to proceed in lock-step with our European In a world dominated by a single superpower,might— partners. not,unhappily,diplomacy—isthedeterminerof outcomes. I can put it no better than the Government’s own So our present foreign policy is dominated not by paper on post-Brexit foreign policy. Britain’s future diplomacy but by the use of high explosive. See a relationship with the EU should be, problem in the world, drop a bomb on it: that is what “unprecedented in its breadth, taking in cooperation on foreign our policy has been. The string of western defeats in policy, defence and security, and development”. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and, most humiliating of all, Precisely, my Lords. The question we debate today is: Syria should tell us that this age is over. We have lost do the Government mean that, or will the country’s contact with the essential truth of Clausewitz that war interests once again be hijacked by the anti-European is an extension of diplomacy by other means. We have prejudices of the Tory party? I beg to move. remembered the war but we have forgotten the diplomacy—and so we have failed. 11.50 am In an age when building alliances will protect and enhance Britain’s interests better than using military Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, I thank capacity alone, high explosive will, I believe, be less the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, for promoting this useful to us than effective diplomacy. To be diminishing Motion and debate. I do not disagree with some of his our diplomatic capacity, as we are currently doing, is concerns; in fact, I agree with some but certainly not folly of a very high order. all of them. I disagree particularly with the weight that he places on 20th-century blocs and alliances in this Perhaps the most dangerous aspect of the current completely different age. That is charmingly out of slide towards isolationism is that, in an increasingly date and old-fashioned but I understand it. interconnected and interdependent world, the only solutions to our problems are multinational ones. Climate Whenever we discuss the special relationship and change, trade imbalance, resource depletion, population relations with the United States, we tend to hear two growth, nuclear proliferation, overpopulation, poverty, mantras constantly repeated. The first is that America migration and conflict suppression are the greatest remains the superpower leader of the free world, and problems we face—and not one of them can be solved the second is that the US President, Donald Trump, is by nations acting alone. As a medium-sized nation the most powerful man in the world. I question both with global reach but, sadly, diminishing weight, it is those statements in modern conditions. I dispute the in our interests to see a rules-based world order rather first proposition because, although America is a great than one shaped by might. So actively pursuing the nation, a good friend and ally and the world’s most strengthening of multilateral institutions seems to me powerful economy by far, it has painfully discovered a necessary cardinal principle of a sensible British that it can no longer get its way in the reordering of foreign policy. the world. Indeed, that is confirmed by the recent studies by the Pentagon authorities, who fully recognise Lastly, we have to deal with the consequences of that America’s role has changed and that it is in a new our own folly. I make no secret of it: we Lib Dems seek era of what the authors call America’s “post-primacy”. to reverse Brexit, which has already resulted in a In a world of networks,the whole concept of a superpower catastrophic shrinkage of our ability to protect our dominating the world has to be radically revised. I interests abroad. I reject the notion that in seeking to doubt the second proposition about Donald Trump reverse Brexit we are acting either undemocratically or because, as we now clearly see, his powers are limited unpatriotically—any more than, for instance, the noble both by internal US constitutional restraints and by Lord, Lord Forsyth, who I recognise as a true democrat forces larger than the USA itself, or, indeed, any one and a patriot, was acting in contravention of either of country, and much more complex. America clearly no those principles by constantly and determinedly seeking longer gets its way merely by virtue of its colossal to change the country’s mind after the 1975 referendum. defence spending, and in these conditions there is no But one thing is certain: whether we are in the EU or decisive victory to be secured, no real army to be out, our foreign policy must continue to place its first defeated—the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, is right emphasis on working intimately with our European about that—and no definite end to a conflict. The neighbours because that is the best way—indeed, the battle ceases to be primarily on the battlefield; it only way—to pursue our nation’sinterests in a dangerous, becomes a matter of narrative and persuasion, of volatile and turbulent age. winning the story as well as of outright military operations. 739 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 740

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] maybe the credulity of the House and try to do so. As That raises two issues. First, technology has greatly he has rampaged across the world, he has done something empowered the Davids against the Goliaths. Lethal valuable, even if he has done it unconsciously. With weaponry can now be procured with ease and at low his attacks on the American press, he has alerted all of cost, which can put power into the hands of the us to the value and importance in our society of a free smallest and often most invisible group or operating and vibrant media. With his partisan attacks on “so- military cell or tribe. American foreign policy experts called” judges, he has underlined across the world that have just not fully understood that size no longer wins free societies are based on the rule of law. When he in the network world. Secondly, it needs to be the right equates neo-Nazis with anti-Nazi demonstrators, he kind of defence spending that actually wins friends has highlighted to the rest of us that racialism and and defends, by securing peace and stability rather anti-Semitism are a cancer in a civilised society. When than just by making enemies. What the Army calls he attacks allies for being dependencies and questions non-kinetic means of winning become the most vital the value of NATO, he stirs the memory of how aspects of national defences. The basic point is that NATO saved our continent from Stalin and ended the sheer overwhelming force is no longer the decisive violence in the Balkans. When he sneers about fake factor, as vividly demonstrated, as we all know, in news, he reminds decent people that there is only the Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria, and possibly over North truth and not what he calls “alternative facts”. And Korea. America can no more “win” on its own, despite when he attacks diplomacy, internationalism and its colossal arsenal, than we can. co-operation between nations, and he slashes the budget As for Donald Trump, while I make no excuses for and personnel of America’s Foreign Service and the his very uncouth undiplomatic language, there are two UN, we in contrast can see that this complex, dangerous reasons not to write off his presidency so soon. His and interdependent world needs diplomacy. bark is plainly much worse than his bite. The first He may not realise it and he may never have intended reason is that within the American domestic context it, but Donald Trump may yet have revived and reinforced he is finding it very hard to get his way. On issue after among thinking people globally that there is a better issue he has been defeated. But secondly, and more alternative to the shouty, incoherent ravings of a very important from our position in the UK, it is obvious temporary American President. In doing so, he will that on the international stage his scope and space are have done us all a service. highly limited, partly for the reasons already mentioned Beyond President Trump, in this country we need and partly because there are now global forces at work to face up to a very uncertain future. The Defence which are much larger and much more powerful than Secretary on Monday in the Commons outlined the even the great USA itself. By “larger forces” I mean grave threats that we face, when he said there were the rising power of Asia—China in particular, but not “four principal threats” to our country and the fourth just China—which now produces the bulk of the one is, world’s GNP outside the OECD. I mean the remorseless “the erosion of the rules-based international order”.—[Official growth of new networks cutting across the old rules of Report, Commons, 15/1/18; col. 611.] sovereign states and severely limiting, indeed cancelling I believe what he said; I agree with him. You might out, the role of the superpowers of the last century, normally expect me to now advocate an increase in whether we are referring to China or the United our defence budget, and I do, but I also want to make States, ensuring that the rhetoric of “America first” the case for diplomacy and an end to the vandalism of simply does not work in practice. It is not quite a our national interest that is represented by the degrading post-western or a post-Atlantic world, but it is one in of the Foreign Office and its budget. Our military is which power is shared with the Indian Ocean and the after all the last line of our nation’s defence, not the Pacific arenas. first. The military is there to reinforce and stiffen These dramatically changed circumstances colour diplomacy and then robustly to act when diplomacy our relationship with the United States in entirely new fails, but hard power without soft power is a recipe for ways. It is still special, in that we share many common constant conflict not enduring peace. values and have obvious affinities based on history Consider this. The whole budget for the Foreign and culture, but it is quite different from the relationships Office in 2017-18 will be £1.2 billion. Strip out cross- of the past. America is our partner in the new age, but Whitehall funds and non-discretionary funding like not our boss. We do not need to be—in fact, must not subscriptions to the UN and NATO, and it is down to become—its obedient poodle, let alone its gun dog. £900 million a year. That whole year’s budget is less The phrase “solid not slavish” was used by my noble than the United States is spending on its new London friend Lord Hague when he summed it up a while ago, embassy alone. That is £900 million to run the whole and it remains an entirely apposite and concise description diplomatic effort—in 168 countries and territories and of what the relationship should be. The network is a nine multinational organisations. In contrast to that, great equaliser of nations and people, and it is healthy the National Health Service spends £2,000 million a to escape from our overdependency on America. To week in this country. The global staff of the Foreign put the matter colloquially,in the age of hyperconnectivity Office has been reduced by 20% in the last decade. In and soft power, we have other fish to fry. contrast, the staff of the United States of America in the UK alone represents one-third of the total global 11.56 am staffing of the Foreign Office. Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab): My Lords, it is In a world with multiple threats to our safety and very difficult to say something positive about President security and with the complexity of Brexit determining Donald Trump. I am going to stretch the patience and our long-term future prosperity, this savage amputation 741 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 742 of our international diplomatic capacity is frighteningly What difference does Trump make to this? Ill informed short-sighted and self-harming. In our Diplomatic or incoherent as he may be, his clear objective is to Service we invest in the protection and the projection further American interests by any means possible—a of our national interest. We in this country have other kind of civilian equivalent of hybrid warfare. It may powerful instruments of soft power too: the BBC not be the language of the Ivy League or of the World Service, the British Council, the Westminster Washington habitué. Diplomatic or domestic conventions Foundation for Democracy and even—I declare an may easily be disregarded. This is a man with a interest as vice-chairman—the internationally acclaimed transactional approach, with short-term rather than Royal Edinburgh Military Tattoo. It is time we abandoned long-term goals. the wrecking-ball approach of the Trumpian world Yes, we will continue to be important to the United and reinforced, not slashed, that diplomatic first line States—sharing intelligence and the nuclear burden of of defence. NATO, and even perhaps in the Security Council, although recent positions taken by the United States 12.01 pm will make that yet more difficult. None of this will arrest the pivot—not President Trump’s expression Lord Campbell of Pittenweem (LD): My Lords, but Hillary Clinton’s, when Secretary of State—towards in our current discussions about what is sometimes the Pacific. President Trump is a competitor, not a called the special relationship, it is inevitable that conciliator, and heaven knows there is plenty of the character and personality of the current competition to be found between China and North President will be a dominant feature. There are two Korea. temptingly polarised alternatives: the President is an unpredictable maverick and he will test the relationship We will tolerate the boorishness. We will tolerate to its destruction; alternatively, Trump is but a blip, the unpredictability out of necessity, not least when the new President will repair the damage and seeking a trade deal with the United States. Who normal service will be resumed. My case is that believes that the offer of the President will be anything neither of these is tenable. There has never been an other than an attempt to secure the interests of his unsullied golden age in the relationship between the core support across the United States? Wewill inevitably United Kingdom and the United States. It is true that lose influence with the United States, just as I believe when the personal relationships between President our efforts—which may be successful—to leave the and Prime Minister have been strong, greater influence European Union mean that we will be leaving influence has perhaps been available from this side of the Atlantic. in Europe. This is an unhappy coincidence. But if we remember the closeness of Thatcher and Reagan, it is also true that that did not stand in the 12.07 pm way of the illegal invasion of Grenada by the United Lord Ricketts (CB): My Lords, I, too, thank the States. noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, for the opportunity to From the point of view of the United States, the reflect on the geopolitical changes that are sweeping relationship is one of choice, but for the United Kingdom our world and what we will face as we emerge, blinking, it has been one of necessity. The post-war decline of from our 40-year membership of the European Union the United Kingdom, the end of empire and the into that world. I agree that there are more simultaneous expression that we had lost an empire but not found a crises going on now than I can remember through my role meant that we had to look elsewhere. What better career. It is striking that the Syria crisis must be the role than to be close to the most powerful nation in the first in the Middle East since the Second World War world? That closeness brought rewards. It brought the where neither the US nor the UK has been playing a Marshall plan and Polaris, after Harold Macmillan key and shaping role. went to meet President Kennedy, and of course it still The underlying trend, which I think has already allows us access to the Trident system. Things had to begun to come out in your Lordships’ debate, is the be given in return; the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, erosion of the international security structure that will remember that there was a very large American Britain was so instrumental in putting together in the ship in the Holy Loch, and there were those who late 1940s. That is partly because of the US retreat challenged that. However, it was a necessary part of from leadership of global crisis management. It started our bargain. before President Trump and has many reasons—some For the United States it has been a question of of them lie in that grinding and difficult 10 years of choice and its wish to have a close ally in Europe as international conflict that the US and UK went through European co-operation post-war both economically in the first decade of this century. Clearly, President and—yes—politically began to emerge. It is notable Trump’s dislike of multinational organisations and his that in the 1960s President Kennedy supported Britain’s preference for transactional bilateral deals is exacerbating attempts at membership of the European Economic that trend, but there are other factors too, most obviously Community. To some extent, that long-standing policy economic ones. There is the move of economic power was echoed by the intervention of President Obama in towards Asia and the rise of countries with nationalist our debate about whether we should stay in or leave leaders impatient with the constraints of the post-war the European Union. Why was this so? It was because institutions who want to dominate in their region— the United States wanted one country that could be countries such as Russia, China, Turkey and perhaps relied on to put the American case in Europe. It is Saudi Arabia as well. quite legitimate. It never made any secret of its motive In parts of the world, I think we are returning to a and the truth is, to coin a phrase, we rather enjoyed period of spheres of influence, which is a very being the voice of America. uncomfortable world for many countries. The question 743 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 744

[LORD RICKETTS] agree with him on the second point. In or out of the for us is what should Britain do in that context, as we EU, on many issues we have to co-ordinate our policy leave the EU. For me, it means putting much more with Europe, and the Government should develop a energy into an active, engaged, initiative-taking foreign deep partnership. policy. As one of a number of former heads of the I was slightly hesitant about speaking in this debate Foreign Office here today, noble Lords would expect because I was worried that it would develop into an me to support the eloquent appeal of the noble Lord, anti-Trump bandwagon. Although I share many criticisms Lord Robertson, for a properly resourced Foreign of President Trump we have to accept and respect that Office. If global Britain is going to mean anything and he is the President of the United States, and not if bilateral relationships with our friends and allies everything single thing that he has done has been will have to take greater weight after Brexit, we clearly wrong. None the less, I want to concentrate on one need a Foreign Office with the resources to do the job. issue relating to the United States policy that is wrong, The current balance between the money spent on which is its policy towards Iran. international development, defence, intelligence and foreign policy seems to me to be way out of kilter. I was in Tehran last week with Jack Straw and I have two thoughts. First, we must make the most Sir Peter Westmacott, our former ambassador to the of the multilateral organisations of which we will still United States. Naturally, we raised the cases of the be a leading member. I particularly think of NATO. It dual citizens: Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and Mr Foroughi. is very welcome that British troops are now deployed We also expressed concern about the riots and what in eastern Europe in support of our Article 5 commitment was happening there and told them the world would to NATO. Britain should naturally be looking to play be watching. My view, and it has been my view for a a leading role in NATO. long time, is that, with Iran, we need a policy of critical engagement. Engagement—but critical—because, But I also want to draw attention to our strategic although it is in many ways an authoritarian relationship with France on the day that President country, to my mind it is one with a capacity to change Macron is here for an important summit meeting. It is and is much more open than many of the other an opportunity to remind ourselves that Britain and countries with which we are closely allied in the France are natural allies. We are the two European neighbourhood. nuclear weapon powers. We have the largest defence budgets in Europe and we have Armed Forces who are On the issue of riots in Tehran, there are of course trained, equipped and experienced to go out and manyinterpretations.One thing that struck me particularly undertake real combat in the real world. We have the while I was there was the reaction of President Rouhani. two most significant defence industries in Europe. It is He not only defended the rights of the demonstrators vital that we now put new energy back into the Lancaster to demonstrate; he went further. He said this is an House process that I played a small part in launching opportunity for us to listen and to learn. He went even in 2010, both to use the capacity that we built for the further than that and said that this is not just about two Armed Forces to work together and to drive economics, it is about freedom. Lastly, just the day forward defence industrial co-operation, including the before I left, he said that the young in his country have potentially very important unmanned combat air system a completely different view of the future, and they of the future. It is also time that we revisited our cannot go on imposing their way of life on them. consultations with the French on nuclear deterrence. President Rouhani renewed his commitment to honour The factors affecting nuclear deterrence in the world, his election promises about more freedom and more not least the emergence of a potentially nuclear-armed economic benefit. North Korea, make it important that the two European My view is that the best way to help those who were nuclear powers should be giving leadership in NATO demonstrating and felt compelled to riot is to make on nuclear deterrence as well. sure that we make the nuclear agreement effective and In the circumstances described by the noble Lord, give the Iranians some benefit from the agreement. Lord Ashdown, let us double down on our strategic President Trump has indicated that he wants to tear it relationship with France and let us also remember that up and that he thinks Iran is not complying with the our relationship with the United States, whatever the agreement, despite the fact the International Atomic difficulties with the current President, remains absolutely Energy Agency has issued 10 reports indicating that essential in the fields of defence and intelligence, which Iran is 100% compliant. His own State Department I saw at first hand. They will continue. We need to does not agree with him. I do not think the CIA agrees show that we are relevant allies to the US, including in with him. No European Government agrees with him. what is happening in Asia, but let us now invest None the less, he has indicated that, although he has seriously in our key strategic bilateral partnership. signed the waiver on sanctions this time, in another 90 days he will not do it again. If that is to happen, it 12.12 pm will make the agreement really ineffective. It will be Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con): My Lords, I first extremely difficult for Europe to carry on on its own, refer to my entry in the register of interests as a and I would like the Minister to comment on one consultant to a number of companies in the Middle point. East and also to my role as the Government’s trade I gather there was a meeting between Mr Zarif and envoy to Iran. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, EU Foreign Ministers a few days ago in which there for introducing this debate. I agree with him on two was discussion of whether Europe could isolate itself particular points. One was the emphasis on diplomacy from American sanctions by some legal mechanism, in tackling problems, and he may be surprised that I rather similar to what Mrs Thatcher did with sanctions 745 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 746 against Libya in the 1980s and sanctions against Russia. Brexit agenda. I fear that any UK contribution to We took action then, so could we not take action European foreign policy after Brexit is going to be again? If America retains some sanctions it is very even weaker and more limited than in recent years. difficult for EU banks to make trade at all possible. I am grateful for the opportunity of this debate, From an Iranian point of view, there is this huge coming less than a week after President Trump gave us feeling of betrayal. The noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, and other European allies a 120-day ultimatum to put the emphasis on diplomacy. Henry Kissinger once come up with a new deal addressing his Iran concerns said that we want Iran to be less of a revolutionary or the US will pull out of the 2015 JCPOA nuclear cause and to become more of a normal state. It will agreement. His plan overtly involves bullying us and only be able to do that if it actually feels that diplomacy other allies into fundamentally changing the terms of pays and that agreements are honoured. If that agreement a deal that we and the US know is working and which is simply torn up it will be the worst possible signal we have publicly stated we have no intention to amend. towards Iran. We need Iranian involvement in dealing Further, we believe that keeping the JCPOA in place is with the crises in Yemen and in Syria, and we want the the only way to make future negotiations on other Iranians to feel that diplomacy is necessary to reaching Iranian activities possible at all and that a US withdrawal a solution in those areas. Even after we have left the would undermine the transatlantic relationship and EU, I hope that the Britain’s cooperation within the our alliances, which are mutually vital across a broad EU3 will continue because such diplomacy, in range of policies from trade to terrorism. The final co-ordination with our European partners, is extremely words of the President’sstatement showcase the challenge important. We should not simply follow the United we face, and are worth reading and rereading: States on this issue because on this, I am sorry to say, it “I hereby call on key European countries to join with the is profoundly wrong. United States in fixing significant flaws in the deal … If other nations fail to act during this time, I will terminate our deal with Lord McNally (LD): My Lords— Iran”. And listen to this: Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab): My Lords— “Those who, for whatever reason, choose not to work with us will be siding with the Iranian regime’s nuclear ambitions, and against the people of Iran and the peaceful nations of the world”. Lord McNally: Oh, I do apologise. I recognise that last Thursday at a meeting in Brussels, the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, the 12.18 pm Foreign Ministers of France and Germany and the EU Lord Browne of Ladyton: My Lords, in an interview High Representative, Federica Mogherini, the European with the New York Times, the then presidential candidate signatories to the deal, insisted, having met Mr Zarif, Donald Trump—not spontaneously but prompted by that Iran was respecting the agreement and that it is his interviewer—said that his foreign policy boiled essential for international security. At the same time, down to two words: America first. Later, he explained Sir Adam Thomson, director of the European Leadership that this meant that his Administration would prevent Network, led a delegation of very senior non- other nations from taking advantage of the United governmental Europeans to Washington DC to engage States and at the start of his presidency he promised to the US Senate on the Iran nuclear deal. In his draft radically reform America’s trade policy, to demand report, which I have seen and which will be published, more of allies and to do less in the world. One year on he states that the delegation was, and his promises, among other things, have resulted in “received and heard with courtesy and attention. They believe calls to renegotiate NAFTA, to withdraw from the their weight, seriousness and arguments resonated privately with TPP, to recognise Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and to US interlocutors. Interlocutors on Capitol Hill asked the ELN to leave the Paris climate accord. continue to feed in European arguments and material”. This is all at a time when the liberal international Entirely coincidentally, at the invitation of the Centre order is under great pressure from revisionist states, for a New American Security, I, along with Ambassador there is turmoil in the Middle East, as well as North Lose, the Danish ambassador to the US, spent part of Korea’s nuclear ambitions and the aftershocks of the last week in Salt Lake City,Utah, engaging in discussions global financial crisis. It is a time when, in addition to and debates with residents of the city on various an erratic US President, Europe faces major foreign aspects of the transatlantic relationship. CNAS launched policy challenges: a revanchist Russian President; a this initiative because of mounting evidence of a western Balkans rejecting the settlement reached at divergence between Washington and the rest of the the end of the Yugoslav wars; a Turkish President US on issues of foreign policy and trade, and because lashing out at Greece, the Netherlands, and Bulgaria; survey data show that Americans and Europeans are and a destroyed Iraq and Libya and a half-destroyed losing sight of the value of the transatlantic relationship Syria, all exporting refugees, including jihadists, to and what each side gains by committing itself to it. destabilise already fearful European communities. It is To my astonishment, I found in Utah—a “red a time when every European foreign ministry has had state” which could hardly be further from DC—an to divert resources to produce dossiers to feed the informed and interested range of audiences of all European Commission’s Brexit negotiating process ages, receptive to the message of the value of transatlantic and when Brexit is dominating the UK’s political and co-operation. There was no “America first” for these policy agenda, already putting huge strains on the people. To me, the lesson of this snapshot, which is all country’s Civil Service. As a result, the UK’s foreign I have time for in five minutes, is one of leadership and policy capacity and attention span is and will be engagement. The US is correct to encourage Europe constrained, and its priorities will be shaped by the to take more responsibility for its security and destiny. 747 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 748

[LORD BROWNE OF LADYTON] “said much about German co-operation with France to deepen My observations and experience of the last week EU and eurozone integration. It stated that US, Chinese and confirm my prejudice that when we do, in solidarity, Russian policies obliged Europe to assume more responsibility for its future. But on Brexit, and on the UK generally, the we are at our most effective. But I fear that we just do CDU-SPD document is deafeningly silent. For all the wishful not do so enough. thinking in London, Brexit is not a top priority for German politicians”. 12.24 pm Barber’s second point is that, between 2005 and Lord McNally: My Lords, I had better start by 2015, the UK ran an average annual trade surplus of saying that I thought that that was an excellent speech over £28 billion with the United States.The US Commerce and I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for Secretary Wilbur Ross has already made it clear that, trying to deprive the House of it. I congratulate the if the UK wants a far-reaching deal, Washington noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, on bringing this topic expects London to depart from any close regulatory before us and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord alignment with the EU. In other words, any bilateral Lamont, that the tone of the debate has been well set. trade deal is going to be as tough and hard-nosed as Early in March 1974, I was in the back of a limousine, we know our American cousins can be. returning from Foggy Bottom to the British Embassy This does not mean that we do not continue to with the new British Foreign Secretary,James Callaghan, build on our US relationship. A very old friend of who had just had his first meeting with Henry Kissinger. mine—an American academic, John Reilly—in the I was a 31-year-old, very enthusiastic political Christmas newsletter he sends out to friends, secretary—we did not call ourselves spads in those summed it up like this, “Ours is a vast and resilient days. I was enthusing to Mr Callaghan about just how country, with a people still younger than most, a well the meeting had gone and how well he had got on continent still richer than most, an economy more with Dr Kissinger. Mr Callaghan leaned back and innovative than most, and an international record said, “Tom, it is part of the job description of a British prouder than most”. Foreign Secretary to get on with the American Secretary As has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, of State”. That is perfectly true—it is a priority that and others, the tectonic plates are moving and we are the British Foreign Secretary should have to this day, going to need the kinds of foreign policy initiatives and I hope he has. that have already been enunciated, as well as, I say Over the last 40 years, Britain has had a unique again, a well-skilled and well-resourced Foreign Office. foundation for its foreign policy as the only country I remember Jim Callaghan saying in 1974, as we were with membership of the UN Security Council, NATO, settling in, “This is a Rolls-Royce department”. Perhaps the Commonwealth and the EU. These interlocking it is time to get the Rolls-Royce off its bricks and put it relationships have given us a unique combination of back into service. hard and soft power. We have also had, as the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, referred to, the BBC World 12.30 pm Service, an instrument of soft power underpinned by its expertise and integrity. Lord Houghton of Richmond (CB) (Maiden Speech): The idea that our departure from Europe gives us My Lords, I am hugely grateful for the opportunity to an opportunity for some new global role is fantasyland. speak in this debate. It is only a couple of weeks since To proffer the Commonwealth as a practical alternative my introduction, so I hope that my desire to speak is to the European single market is a delusion. The not judged impetuous. In truth, I did not want to Commonwealth is a tremendous example of our soft perpetuate the frustration of not being able to contribute, power but it is not, and never can be, an alternative nor submit to the folly of awaiting a debate on which I trading bloc. Every Commonwealth country has its had a special interest or strong views, only to be bound own regional trading commitments and will rank its by the protocol of remaining uncontentious. So I relations with those trading commitments, and with thought I would speak softly in this debate, at least in the EU, above any bilateral trading arrangements with part then to be eligible for bolder things to come. the UK. I start by offering a general thank you to all those Let us look forward to the Commonwealth Heads who have offered me such a warm welcome to the of Government Meeting in the spring, but let us do so House. Even a number of noble and gallant Lords while playing to the Commonwealth’ssoft power strengths. whose very proximity in a previous life I used to fear If the Government try to play the Commonwealth as have been remarkably friendly. I single out for special some alternative to EU membership they will run into thanks my two supporters: the noble Baroness, Lady trouble, not least from Commonwealth countries Harris, and the noble Lord, Lord Hague—both selected themselves. carefully to emphasise both my Yorkshire and my soft On other fronts, as we have heard, there are various power credentials. I most warmly thank all those thoughts about where we go next in keeping the links members of staff who have been so courteous and with the EU and possible new links with the USA. On helpful. 16 January, Tony Barber wrote an interesting article in I think I am a rarity among recent defence chiefs in the Financial Times, headed “Britain’s Transatlantic having a son who is a professional comedian. Comedians Bridge Looks Shaky”. In it he makes two points of know little about American foreign policy, but comedic great relevance to this debate. First, he draws attention sons are good sounding-boards for maiden speeches to the 28-page document drawn up as the basis of and common sense. Tom, my son, likened this event to Germany’s new grand coalition Government. He tells a “new material night”—defined as an occasion when us that the document, a non-paying, often small audience, largely composed 749 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 750 of friends, gathers to hear you try out some new ideas, those parties to threaten to use, or to use, force—but in the knowledge that they are not yet perfectly formed, always in the context of mature leadership and wise nor necessarily that funny. policy. So here is my contribution to this debate—a This, to me, is the context of this debate. The grand contribution to an understanding of the gravity of its strategic challenge of this age is how we accommodate context from the view of a military mind. When I the change that is inevitable while sustaining the stability stood down as Chief of the Defence Staff 18 months on which the continued betterment of the human ago, I privately offered a personal view to the staff on condition depends. The strategy needed to meet this the state of the world. I recalled that I had spent much challenge will be achieved only through a combination of my adult life rather simplistically hoping that the of wise policy,strong capability and thoughtful leadership. natural evolution of mankind was towards greater The absence of such a combination—or, worse still, its mutual tolerance, greater civilisation and a greater replacement by policy and leadership that is antagonistic equality of opportunity and social condition—ultimately, or self-serving—runs the grave risk that change will be a more inclusive global polity that was representative violent, stability will fail and the journey of human of commonly shared ideals and morality. betterment will suffer badly. So while we look to the United States of America to lead, the United Kingdom I had a parallel sense that this natural evolution should also look in the mirror at our ability to discharge would be accompanied by relative stability among a supporting role. nations: a sense that cataclysmic war, as witnessed in the last century, was a watershed in human awakening, A better definition of this role forms the context of and that our evolution towards collective civilisation our national ambition, our place in the world and, for would occur within an agreed international rules-based me—dare I say it?—a far clearer understanding of the system to which all nations subscribed. My views were sort of Armed Forces we actually need. I risk, however, bolstered by ample academic evidence and bestselling straying into a separate debate—one to which I hope I books which irresistibly demonstrated that the will now be permitted to contribute. fundamentals of human existence in respect of disease, famine and violence had never been better. There was 12.37 pm a sustained revolution going on in human fortune. But then I qualified this euphoria. My more recent experience Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield (CB): My Lords, I am had rather dented my confidence in this somewhat truly honoured to follow the noble and gallant Lord, idealised human journey. Indeed, increasingly, most of Lord Houghton of Richmond, who is such a welcome the evidence seemed to support a very different narrative. recruit to your Lordships’ House—on what one might call the warriors’ Bench. First, as has been mentioned, a number of countries— Russia, Iran, North Korea and China—variously tended I was honoured to serve as a member of his strategic to the view, perhaps understandably, that the current advisory panel when he was Chief of the Defence rules-based order denied them the historic entitlement Staff. I always associate the words “strategy” and they sensed was theirs. They were not content with the “strategic” with the noble and gallant Lord. He has, in status quo, nor with the stewardship of those who the language of quantum physics, a real gift for discerning control it. Separately, demographics and economics both the waves and the particles that go into our were becoming, in combination, increasingly dangerous nation’s defence posture, and the foreign policy and sources of global instability,either through a rebalancing influence in the world that our Armed Forces support. of global economic power, as in Asia, or through the He is, too, as we have heard, a son of Yorkshire, so we continuing maldistribution of wealth and opportunity can expect an enduring and welcome injection of within and between countries, especially in sub-Saharan directness and common sense in our future deliberations. Africa. Then there was the widespread growth in I congratulate the noble and gallant Lord on a very violent religious extremism, a phenomenon that threatens fine maiden speech. international security and the integrity of various I will concentrate this afternoon on what one might nation states, most obviously Iraq, Syria and Libya. call the hidden dimension in diplomacy, foreign policy The world suddenly seemed a significantly less stable and international affairs, by which I mean intelligence, and certain—and a more dangerous—place. particularly the intelligence-sharing arrangements that have served the UK so well for more than 70 years. I As I finished my time as CDS, therefore, my historical refer especially to the so-called “Five Eyes” network, judgment was that inevitable change, often accompanied embracing the United States, the United Kingdom, by violence, looked a far better descriptor of mankind’s Canada, Australia and New Zealand, which the most future, and my philosophical judgment was that human recent report of the Intelligence and Security Committee nature still tends to the Hobbesian: driven by selfish of Parliament rightly calls “the closest intelligence concerns, primarily those relating to individual survival, partnership in the world”. It is also the most enduring, achieved if necessary by brutal means. because in essence the “Five Eyes” is the World War II Even if these judgments seem overstated, noble intelligence alliance, which has run on right through Lords might at least allow the conclusion that competition the 40 years of the Cold War and into the age of is a more natural human condition than peaceful multiple threats that has followed. The UK-USA element coexistence, and that stability and a rules-based global within it, privately but not officially called the “two order do not occur naturally. Indeed, stability, peaceful eyes”, is what gives our country its genuine global coexistence and a rules-based order need to be imposed, intelligence reach. Only two other nations possess primarily consensually through alliances of interested that: the United States and Russia, with China coming parties, and occasionally through the willingness of up fast. 751 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 752

[LORD HENNESSY OF NYMPSFIELD] 12.42 pm This intelligence reach is of critical value to the UK Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab): My Lords, I in a fragile, volatile and often scarcely readable world. congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, and I For all the skills of our intelligence agencies and will make three reflections. One is on the unpredictability Defence Intelligence inside the Ministry of Defence, of current US foreign policy; the second is to offer without the “two eyes” and the “Five Eyes” we would certain examples; and the third on what is our appropriate slip instantly into the second rank of intelligence UK response. powers. In the past, there have been periods when we have This most special of special relationships rests on been comfortable with US foreign policy and others an array of agreements and one treaty—the so-called when we have been less so. Those differences reflect in UK-USA treaty of the late 1940s. Participating nations part our respective geography, history and culture. are, however, not obliged to pass on or share intelligence Our tradition is more elitist, that of the US led more that they garner. Anything that happened, on either by the democratic tradition, which was described by side of the Atlantic, to staunch the flow would be a Alexis de Tocqueville as being subject to waves of blow of considerable proportions on many levels, because popular emotion. Past phases of US foreign policy we are an intelligence-trading nation as much as a included the post-First World War liberal internationalism, diplomatic trading nation—to borrow a phrase used followed by the isolationism of the 1930s and, post-Second by my former Times colleague, Geoffrey Smith. What World War,the commitment to international institutions is of some immediate concern to the secret world is with the Marshall plan, Bretton Woods and NATO. whether Brexit could impact on the skein of valuable Then there was the harsh realism of Suez, the moralism bilateral intelligence and security arrangements we of Carter, Reagan’s naive expansion of democracy, the have with our European partners, to which other crusader element of Bush—leading to the interventions noble Lords have alluded. in Afghanistan and Iraq—and the ultra-cautious realism of Obama, which vacated the ground in the Middle The ISC caught this anxiety well in its report, East to Iran and Russia. published just before Christmas. I should point out During those periods, however, at least US policy that I have an air of regret about the ISC because we was predictable. Under President Trump, it is more have got out of the habit of debating its annual capricious. President Zigzag has a large ego and oscillates reports in this Chamber. That is a great pity and we from tweet to tweet. One of the few consistencies is the should restore that debate. The ISC said just before aim to overturn the Obama legacy and have “America Christmas: first”. It is therefore more difficult for our Washington “Whilst none are as deep as the Five Eyes, the Agencies embassy to report accurately on the changes. Think nonetheless have significant relationships with other countries. In also of the US ambassadors in Africa who have carefully particular, several areas of obvious shared intelligence interest built up relationships over time, only to see them exist with our European allies—primarily on International demolished by the ill-considered expletives of President CounterTerrorism but also on other Hostile State Activity and Trump. All this is compounded by cuts in personnel Serious and Organised Crime”. and attacks on the intelligence and diplomatic In that context, Parliament and Her Majesty’s communities, but we are hardly a good example on the Government should take the ISC’s concluding reduction of personnel. recommendations deeply seriously. It said: ThePresident’sidiosyncrasieshavecausedrealproblems for US ambassadors, not least the US ambassador in “European mechanisms play an essential role in the UK’s London, who was wrong-footed by the President’s national security, particularly at a time when the Agencies have all decision—taken on spurious grounds—not to open emphasised the importance of enhancing their cooperation with European counterparts. We urge the Government to be more the new US embassy here. When the President calls forthcoming with its assessment of the associated risks of the the press “enemies of the people”, it makes it the more UK’s impending departure from the European Union, and the difficult for the West to set an example and criticise mitigations it is putting in place to protect this vital capability”. press curbs in places such as Russia and Turkey.Equally, when he criticises the judges, it makes it more difficult It went on to say: for us to carry on our tradition of supporting the rule “Once the UK has left the EU, intelligence cooperation is an of law elsewhere in the world. area where it can continue to be a leader amongst its European Particular areas of concern include Israel and Palestine. allies”. The orthodox view is that there can be no settlement I say amen to that. without US involvement, but this US role has been made less possible—perhaps impossible—by the Such matters come perhaps into what one might recognition of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and the call the hidden wiring capacity of our international reduction in aid to UNRWA. The President has made relationships, but the value we can bring as a top-flight childish comments about the North Korean leader intelligence power, not just to ourselves but to our such as calling him Little Rocket Man, and said, “My allies, must not go unheard amid the fractious cacophony button is bigger than yours” and “I will destroy North that Brexit has brought to our politics and our national Korea”. These were all to the embarrassment of our conversation. Good, carefully assessed intelligence is ally, South Korea, which seeks to build bridges with where hard power, soft power and so-called sharp the north. power meet. As a country, we need it to shape our By reducing security aid to Pakistan, the US could actions, our precautions and our strategy-making as well lose a key source of intelligence on terrorism. The much as we ever have in peacetime before. points on Iran have already been well made by the 753 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 754 noble Lord, Lord Lamont, and others. There have year’s commemoration of the Balfour Declaration, been similar brash utterances on climate change, Latin that we—Great Britain, as we once were—are mainly America, NATO and Russia. responsible for this mess, and it is time we faced our How should we respond? Our response in respect of responsibilities and made amends. climate change, Iran and the Middle East has been My other point concerns the link between foreign measured and correct. We have avoided bluster but at affairs and international development. The FCO is to the same time have accepted that the US is a key receive funds from DfID in future years. It should be ally—particularly in the field of intelligence and US reacting with horror at another of Donald Trump’s agencies—and have avoided divergence wherever possible, announcements: the infamous Mexico City policy or looking long. We should not seek differences with the global gag rule. It is why I am surprised that so few US but should recognise that over great swathes of women Peers have chosen to speak in this debate. This policy, our position is much closer to that of our EU announcement reinstated the ban on funding for all partners. This is hardly surprising, as the noble Lord, development programmes relating to safe abortion or Lord Ricketts, would no doubt say, because of the advice about safe abortion, as under George W Bush working relationships developed over many years by and Ronald Reagan, but Trump has expanded the ban diplomats and Ministers. to the vast majority of US bilateral global health We will continue to bring major assets to the table: assistance programmes including those on HIV,maternal the P5 and our hard and soft power, which are relevant and child health, malaria, nutrition and many others, to our current discussions with President Macron. We which total $8 billion-worth of funding. That ban will co-operate with the French on defence, building means a delay in the reduction of maternal death rates on St Malo and the Lancaster House agreements on and a halt to the spread of family planning in developing climate change and many other policies. What shall we countries, which are essential if a country is to progress, exchange for the French gesture on Bayeux? As a which is in our interest. Francophile decorated by France, I counsel against Why should this concern the FCO? The connection offering our French colleagues the Maclise paintings is to be found in reports from the World Bank. A rise in the Royal Gallery. Yes, we should avoid policy in GNI in developing countries occurs after a decrease divergences with the US but, notwithstanding Brexit, in maternal mortality and declining fertility rates in we should align our policies and interests with those of those countries. The Asian-tiger countries realised our EU partners, particularly France. some time ago that good maternal health and smaller families would release women to join their country’s 12.48 pm workforce, hence their success, which is a great advantage to us. In recent years Rwanda, Vietnam and Tunisia Baroness Tonge (Non-Afl): My Lords, I congratulate have demonstrated this, and it is all good news for our the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, in his absence on country.It is therefore essential that our foreign policies raising this debate. I am filled with admiration for his and development funding should reflect this and take promotion of diplomacy over bombs, which was very very seriously the changing attitude of the Administration good to hear. That was repeated by the noble Lord, in the United States. Lord Lamont, in his remarks on Iran. I conclude by asking the Minister two questions. Despite the antics of the current President of the What plans do the Government have to recognise the United States, that country is our friend and ally. state of Palestine and make it a reality instead of just a Especially in the light of the appalling decision to mantra they recite from time to time? With its new leave the European Union, we might be more and funding from the Department for International more dependent on our American cousins in the future. Development, what will the Foreign Office do to persuade I wish it were not so but it is. However, there is an the USA Administration to reverse their cruel and opportunity to do things differently following two foolish implementation of the Mexico City policy? actions by Donald Trump. I will address just two issues. 12.53 pm After decades of a so-called peace process between the Palestinians and Israelis, Donald Trump has chosen Baroness Helic (Con): My Lords, I thank the noble to move the US embassy to Jerusalem, thus recognising Lord, Lord Ashdown, for initiating this debate. It is a Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, as mentioned by the privilege to speak after so many noble Lords who have noble Lord, Lord Anderson. He could not have made unrivalled experience, knowledge and collective memory a more inflammatory move. By doing so, he has destroyed of international affairs. any illusion we might have had that the USA was Over the past year, we have witnessed a different acting as a neutral broker in the peace process. This kind of politics and leadership emanating from has been compounded by the reduction in aid to Washington. While it is regrettable to see an apparent UNRWA, which has been looking after Palestinian weakening of American leadership in the world, it is refugees in the Middle East since the creation of the also regrettable that so much time has been spent State of Israel. The Palestinian leadership is furious; analysing personalities rather than politics. It is so are Muslims and Christians all over the world. It is extraordinary that the cognitive tests of the President time for our Government to take control of this situation. of the United States made more headlines this week Together with the European Union and the Arab than the facts that 400,000 Yemeni children are states, we have an opportunity to form a new neutral severely malnourished due to a blockade by countries negotiating body not led by the USA. I remind our we consider our allies, that nearly 1 million Rohingya Foreign Office, if it needs any reminding after last refugees are stuck in a no-man’s land of statelessness 755 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 756

[BARONESS HELIC] It cannot be that we have regressed so far that there and abuse, and that Russian-sponsored paramilitaries is now talk again of spheres of influence, rather than are roaming around the most unstable part of Europe, democratic rights, the rule of law and universal freedoms. the Balkans. Anyone who has practised foreign policy knows that we are most effective when we act jointly with the I share the concerns expressed by many noble Lords United States and with Europe. regarding the unilateral decision to disregard UN I am not romanticising this relationship, but anyone Security Council resolutions on Jerusalem, the who says that the transatlantic alliance built over the downgrading of human rights and the threat to tear last century is not something we have to build on, up the Iranian nuclear agreement, among other current strengthen and be able to rely on at a time of growing US policies, although I note that the United States’ danger internationally, simply because of a different policy on NATO has had a healthy impact on the type of presidency in Washington, is missing the bigger willingness of allies to contribute more to mutual picture. self-defence. We have never lived in a more interconnected world; Whatever failings we perceive in the Administration yet, I have never felt that democracies were more of another country, it does not absolve us from our parochial than they are today. We need to rediscover responsibility to put forward foreign policy ideas and our sense of unity and purpose and confidence, initiatives of our own—as the United States based on our values, and cannot ever simply accept Administration is undoubtedly doing, whether or not that America is disengaged. The last time America we always agree. We should be less preoccupied with was disengaged was in the Second World War—and the tweets and habits of the President of the United then, we waited too long. We should never observe States, and more focused on our own policies and the that trend without doing everything in our power to strategies we wish to pursue with the US as a whole. I reverse it. say this for everyone on this side of the Atlantic. I therefore welcome the Prime Minister’s engagement American support and engagement, including the with President Trump and I encourage her to pursue it security guarantee through NATO, has been a crucial further,looking beyond trade agreements to transatlantic factor in the success and stability of Europe over the security as a whole and the robust defence of the last century. liberal order that we in Europe built with the United States—which is an indispensable today as it ever The transatlantic alliance rests on common political has been. and economic interests, shared history, and vital military and intelligence links. It would be absurd if our history of thinking and acting together could be completely 12.58 pm thrown off simply by the election of an unusual President. Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, that was a courageous Furthermore, it would be a development welcomed and forthright speech. with glee by our adversaries. I declare my interests as a member of the advisory panel of the United Nations Association. Like others, On this side of the Atlantic, we ought to admit that I want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, most we have been distracted by our own difficulties, including warmly for having secured this debate and for the but not limited to Brexit, which has contributed to an challenging way in which he spoke. atmosphere of “each country for itself”, rather than The first reality of existence is that we live in a joint thinking and common purpose. However all- totally interdependent world. Individually and as a consuming the demands of Brexit, we cannot put on nation, we shall be judged by posterity on our success autopilot our foreign policy responsibilities as a member or failure in meeting that reality, and on the constructive of the UN Security Council, and as an economy and imaginative part we play in forging the co-operative dependent on the international rule of law, while the international remedies and actions that are essential to seeds of future threats are being sown around us, ensure the survival and well-being of the human race. whether in Syria, Iraq, Burma, Yemen, the Balkans or Forbidding as things may already seem under Trump, elsewhere. the true humanitarian and security costs of his actions It is deeply concerning that our undeniable talent will become ever clearer in future. Coming so soon and resources in foreign policy have been thrown into after his precipitate and dangerous action over Jerusalem, Brexit to the exclusion of almost everything else. Here, this week’s news that the Trump Administration are to I echo the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson. cut from US$350 million to US$60 million their While we are pulling out of the EU and refocusing on contributions to the work of UNWRA is a glaring trade and the Commonwealth, the world has not example. Unless immediate steps are taken to make stopped to wait for us to rearrange the chairs. good the void, quite apart from the grave humanitarian consequences for schools, medical clinics, food and We urgently need to see fresh thinking and bold income programmes, the negative impact on stability initiatives with the United States and our allies to and security will, sadly, prove significant. revive viable and credible peace negotiations in Syria, While in the European context we should be promoting to hold the Burmese authorities to account for ethnic our commitment to NATO and to the Council of cleansing and alleged genocide, and to muster a serious Europe, and indeed taking seriously the work of the collective effort to roll back Russian undermining and Ministers of the Council of Europe, it is globally that interference in some forgotten parts of Europe, notably we have to redouble our efforts. We must see the UN in the Balkans. as our UN,not as something separate from us.Particularly 757 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 758 as we are a permanent member of the Security Council, described. In the leading article in the journal, Professor the UN’s successes or failures are inescapably ours and John Ikenberry from Princeton, who I know my noble the responsibility for putting right shortcomings is friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire also knows, makes a very much our responsibility. The same is true of the few central points that I think worth repeating. He UN family and specialised agencies. We simply must says that preserving the liberal international order in forgo the temptation to cherry-pick our favourite bits the face of globalisation is a, of multilateralism. We have to play a full, effective and, where necessary, critical part in the system as a “problem of authority and governance”. whole. That demands a principled, multilateral and That is what we have seen with the rise of populism consistent foreign policy. It is greatly to our credit as a and authoritarianism. nation that, thanks to what is enshrined in our legislation, we are world leaders in overseas aid and development. The central question therefore becomes: who pays, However, the influence we gain by that is considerably who adjusts and leads? How do you redistribute negated by, for example, putting trade before human authority? It is a matter of managing change as rights, as happens with Saudi Arabia, with dire power and authority shift from the West, the EU and consequences in Yemen. Similarly, when we shirk Japan to rising powers such as China and India. My from playing a committed part in discussions on money is still very much on the United States and, nuclear disarmament—condescendingly, at times—that broadly, with the West. Indeed, even through the undermines our credibility. Trump presidency, despite the reservations that several noble Lords have voiced today, I would argue that There is a central role to be shouldered by UK there are more continuities than disruptions. The US diplomacy—I am glad that this has been repeatedly economy has not tanked as predicted; indeed, the EU emphasised during the debate—and by the British and UK can look with envy at a growth rate of nearly Council, the BBC and others if we are to sustain and 3% and unemployment at just above 4%. NAFTA has enhance our influence on the world stage. Given the not been scrapped; it has been renegotiated, but then scale of the need, deprivation, suffering and injustice again we only wish that our own renegotiation had that remain across the world, our overseas aid programme gone better. The checks and balances that are hard-wired must at all costs remain a priority. However, that must into the US system and constitution are bigger than be alongside increased funding for the FCO itself, the incumbent of the White House, including when it with the emphasis on multilateralism and operations comes to nuclear stand-offs. Lastly, even on the question that support work at the UN level. Hopefully, the new of climate change, my greatest concern is the US drive for multilateralism will help to justify what I withdrawing from the Paris agreement but that will be believe is our otherwise questionable permanent implemented only after the next presidential election, membership of the UN Security Council. It will also so who knows? There might be a change of view in gain us a part in building a broad and diverse set of that regard. alliances to replace the old order. The list of actions is challenging, but the opportunities The UK’s own changing relations must embrace are huge. both continuity and change. Continuity comes from remaining a steadfast partner to both the US and the 1.04 pm EU, including making the right calls when confronted Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD): My Lords, I with divergences in international affairs—for example, thank my noble friend Lord Ashdown for initiating over Iran, which has been widely mentioned across the this debate, even though I sometimes do not share his House. However, we must also change in recognising historical analogies or gloomy prognosis of what is to that, as we sit among our allies as defenders of the come. liberal international order based on multilateralism The US role in securing the liberal international and a rules-based system, our values matter more than order that the world has enjoyed over the last 70 years ever. The defence of freedom, human rights and is changing—there is no doubt about that—but it democracy in the face of the rise of authoritarianism has been changing since the more stable certainties of across the world makes defending and standing up for the Cold War fell away. It is giving rise to a set of new our ideas and values even more important, even though and complex global issues. Since the early 1990s we there appear to be temporary reverses. have seen a unipolar moment but at the same time we The West has experienced many crises of confidence have seen enormous disruption in what we thought in the last 70 years. Think of the Cuban missile crisis, were certainties: the rise of climate change, the rise the nuclear stand-offs in Asia between India and Pakistan, of terrorism and the proliferation of weapons of mass and 9/11 and the war on terrorism. No doubt the destruction. disruptions will continue to challenge us, even as we In preparing for this debate, I was fortunate enough come up to the 70th anniversary of the Universal to realise that Chatham House is wonderful. It is a Declaration on Human Rights. I congratulate the UK institution that we really must cherish and which has noble Lord, Lord Judd, on his role in supporting the an extraordinary reputation around the world. If I UN system. Even as we come up to this period, it is recall correctly, my noble friend Lord Ashdown is important that we keep our nerve. The power of our himself an honorary president of the institution. It values and ideals still trumps all the other ideologies kicked off 2018 by producing a special edition of its out there. People around the world can see that, which journal, International Affairs, on the future of the is why they still gravitate to western culture, western liberal international world order. This is a very important economic models and, most importantly, western moment to help us reflect on the changes I have democracy and freedom. 759 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 760

1.10 pm 1.15 pm Lord Hylton (CB): My Lords, if we look at the Lord Taylor of Warwick (Non-Afl): My Lords, I too Middle East, it seems full of conflict and unpredictability; thank the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, for securing much the same could be said of American foreign this important debate today. I also congratulate the policy, particularly in that region. I would therefore noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, on an excellent like to describe a new and positive initiative. maiden speech. When I was chancellor of Bournemouth Since 2014, the Finnish Government and the British University, I had the pleasure of conferring on the charity Forward Thinking have developed the Helsinki noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, an honorary doctorate, Policy Forum. I declare an unpaid interest as a trustee and I still remember the inspiring way he spoke that day. of the charity. The forum is so called because it first I declare my interests, in that I am married to an met in Helsinki, and it aims to increase dialogue American, and my children are British and American. between key powers so as to develop shared analysis, I am also an honorary colonel in the United States with the help of participants from the UN and army, am honoured to have been given the freedom of international bodies, together with leaders in business a number of American cities, and have enjoyed lecturing and NGOs. It is well aware of the influence of religions at various American universities. in that region. The “special relationship” between the United The forum tries to ease tensions and prevent conflicts Kingdom and America was first coined by Sir Winston and to identify policy proposals that can be implemented Churchill in a speech in 1946. Our two nations share a in practice. In three years, 95 such recommendations strong common heritage. My wife’s ancestors John have been made, and I am glad to say that a large and Priscilla Alden were pilgrims on board that famous majority have been taken up by Governments,parliaments, ship the “Mayflower”, which made the voyage from think tanks and the media. The aim is to find win-win Plymouth to the new world of America in 1620, nearly approaches that serve the common good, so that all 400 years ago. may benefit. A meeting on Syria, for example, included Egypt, Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia. The ability to Although we share the English language, cultural call together high-level officials from major states differences between America and Britain manifest stems at least in part from 13 years of painstaking and themselves from time to time. To my wife Laura, patient work by Forward Thinking with the political cricket means an insect she used to hear during the and religious extremes in both Israel and Palestine. night in her home town of Dallas, Texas, whereas to me cricket is a fine summer game, played occasionally In the absence of formal institutions for preventing in between frequent showers of rain. These are but and resolving conflicts, the forum works in three ways. small differences between our two cultures. First, it raises awareness, to alert and prevent; secondly, it builds confidence through face-to-face meetings, to More importantly, when we travel to America it is address a widespread lack of trust in the region; above clear that the British brand—for example, British royalty, all, it seeks to highlight mutual and wider common our literature and our history—remains very strong interests—a small example of the latter was the agreement there. These bonds are stronger than whoever happens between Iran and Saudi Arabia for Iranian pilgrims to to be President in the White House, and they will take part in the 2017 hajj. endure even beyond temporary differences in foreign policy. I recently had the privilege of being interviewed Between larger meetings, the forum holds working by Fox News TV about Brexit, and it was clear to me groups on single issues such as economic co-operation from the questions that America is listening to and or migration. It is always in close touch with foreign watching what is going on in Britain. I am delighted, policy groups in Berlin, Rome and Istanbul, as well as too, to have been invited to President Trump’sforthcoming the Davos World Economic Forum. I commend the prayer breakfast in Washington DC. It will be just me Helsinki Policy Forum to our Government, and indeed and the President of the United States of America—oh, to your Lordships, and to all who want to see a more and 3,000 other guests. co-operative and peaceful Middle East. What has been done shows once again the value of neutral When it comes to foreign policy, historically the ground and independent facilitation. As Sir Jeremy actions of the United States have had a profound Greenstock, our senior adviser, wrote in Forward effect on the rest of the world. When Donald Trump Thinking’s recent annual report, in the context of became President, he made it clear that he was going international relations and interests the Middle East is to focus more on greatness at home. We could criticise the canary in the mine. him for that, but in essence that is what Brexit is I conclude with two probably controversial questions, about—giving Britain the opportunity to become not for which I take full personal responsibility. Will Her just Great Britain but greater Great Britain. Let us not Majesty’s Government move from condemnation to a forget that one of Mr Trump’s earliest actions on better understanding of the history and current evolution entering the White House was to restore the bust of of national resistance movements such as Hamas and Sir Winston Churchill to the Oval Office. That was an the Kurdistan Workers’ Party? Will they make plans important signal of the US President’s bond with, and for dismantling sanctions on Syria, given that those respect for, Great Britain. probably do more harm to the Syrians than to the Concerning foreign policy, let us consider briefly current regime? I do not want to provoke the Foreign the situation in the Middle East, particularly in Israel. Office, but I will just say that these questions arise American Presidents have endeavoured to broker peace from my many visits to Israel and Palestine, including between Israel and Palestine, but that has led to a Gaza, and also to Turkey, Iraq and Syria. stalemate situation, where the peace process has become 761 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 762 stagnant for some years. On 6 December last year, an interest as founder, 15 years ago, of the All-Party Mr Trump recognised Jerusalem as the Jewish capital Parliamentary Group on North Korea, which I continue of Israel and announced the intention to move the to co-chair. American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. This With six nuclear tests last year alone, North Korea decision also affirmed the biblical foundation for that continues to act in defiance of Security Council resolutions. city being the capital of Israel, and Israel being the It is said to possess 5,000 tonnes of chemical and true home of the Jewish people. This was of course biological agents and 1,000 artillery pieces trained on confirmed by the British Government 100 years ago, Seoul alone. Wehave seen what it can do with abductions with the Balfour Declaration in 1917. Mr Trump has and assassinations, let alone cyberattacks, the hacking declared his support for Israel, and it is important for of crypto-currencies and cyber robberies, which can the United Kingdom to continue supporting Israel directly impact the United Kingdom. Sanctions, and world peace, as Israel is the only true democracy implemented by China and to a lesser extent Russia, in the Middle East. are having some welcome effect. Although the law of The Holy Bible says, in Matthew chapter 5 verse 9: unintended consequences may yet lead to a catastrophic “Blessed are the peacemakers”— war, there has been some welcome movement in not peacekeepers but peacemakers; it is very much an Pyongyang, from the Winter Olympics, and maybe a active thing. To achieve peace, it is important to shared flag, to the reopening of eight formal lines of recognise that there are agents of peace which world communication between north and south. However, leaders can by their policies halt, misuse or use to not as that regime strives to survive, Pyongyang will be only benefit their own people but help to create peace. duplicitous and try to drive wedges between the United In Israel, a distinct agent of peace is innovation. Israel States and its allies and encourage anti-American has a small population yet ranks third in the World sentiment. Economic Forum’s rankings of the most innovative The north’s calibrated strategy will aim at securing economies.The world has benefited from Israeli inventions relief from sanctions, but they are past masters of too numerous to mention here. Israeli intelligence offering concessions that are never honoured. Weshould services have helped stop a wide number of terrorist recall that, between 2005 and 2009, the US unfroze attacks around the world. Many Arab nations now $25 million of a North Korean fund at Banco Delta look to Israel as a strong ally in their common battle Asia, which the regime then used as a slush fund. We for peace against militant Islam. These Arab nations must beware of being what Lenin called “useful idiots” now seek Israeli technology to help grow their own in the hands of a well-practised and often cunning economies, so trade can be an agent of peace. snake oil salesman. The UK has 28 trade envoys but only five Trade We should stay close to the United States and work Ministers. Trade is an agent of peace. Will the Minister together, as Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher say when the Government intend to appoint more did so effectively during the Cold War and the Helsinki trade envoys? There are 282 foreign embassies. Is it not process. Along with sanctions and diplomacy and time for the UK to host a peace conference inviting military deployment—including, last week, three stealth ambassadors to talk about making peace? B-2 Spirit bombers to Guam and HMS “Sutherland” and HMS “Argyll” to the Asia Pacific—we must never In conclusion, the first duty of any Government is lose sight of breaking North Korea’sinformation blockade to protect their people, but we live in a world where and the championing of both people’s human rights. geographical boundaries will mean less and less. Perhaps Four years ago, a United Nations commission of one should remember that there is only one race—the inquiry concluded that the, human race. This is why President Thomas Jefferson was right when he said simply: “gravity, scale and nature”, of the human rights violations in North Korea, “Enemies in War, in Peace Friends”. “reveal a State that does not have any parallel in the contemporary 1.21 pm world”. Its chairman, Justice Michael Kirby, said: Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, at a time “This Commission’s recommendations should not sit on the of momentous change on both sides of the Atlantic, shelf … It is now your duty to address the scourge of human the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, has done us all a great rights violations and crimes against humanity”. service by initiating this debate. However, while the report’s recommendations gather In 1946, Churchill coined the phrase, “special dust, 200,000 people remain incarcerated in the regime’s relationship”. In cautioning against anti-Americanism gulags, where more than 300,000 people have been throughout the debate, we have rightly cited the Marshall killed. The regime rapes, tortures, indoctrinates and aid programme and NATO. We could add to that the lets millions of its people starve to death. Like Stalin, Kim Truman doctrine and the Universal Declaration of Jong-un uses mock trials, purges and public executions. Human Rights, in which Eleanor Roosevelt played Consider the plight of North Korean refugees. Just such a decisive role, all of which were indispensable in two months ago, 10 North Koreans, including women opposing totalitarianism, championing democracy and and a four year-old child, were repatriated to North safeguarding peace and the rule of law. In sustaining Korea from China, despite South Korea’s willingness these achievements and in our mutually advantageous to give them refuge and citizenship. The father of one relationship, we need far more wisdom and self-restraint, of the children, who had reached South Korea, issued nowhere more so than in North Korea, where 3 million an appeal broadcast by the BBC. He said that his wife lives, including those of British and American servicemen, and son would, were lost in the Korean War of 1950 to 1953. I declare “either face execution or wither away in a political prison camp”, 763 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 764

[LORD ALTON OF LIVERPOOL] However, there is one of Trump’s recent interventions if sent back to North Korea. He said that he was on which I would like to focus—his proposal to move haunted by images of his young son in detention: his embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. On this issue I am “I can almost hear my baby calling my name”. afraid that I must part company with one or two I was genuinely shocked to receive a parliamentary earlier speakers. It certainly has been the focus of reply about this case, in which the Government confirmed many knee-jerk responses in the media but, surprisingly, that they had not made representations to China on with rather less dismay in the Middle East. Even the behalf of those fleeing refugees. Palestinian response was muted, when it became obvious We should not remain silent about the nature of that protesters at the Damascus Gate were outnumbered this regime—we should act whenever we can—nor by the TV and media reporters standing around. should we impute in some foolish way a moral equivalence Provocative it was, but was it a profound change of between North Korea and the United States of America. policy given the facts of the case? First, it is worth In the Cold War, once destruction was mutually assured remembering that west Jerusalem is where the Israeli and we realised that weapons used by either side Parliament and all its government departments are would lead to obliteration, other weapons proved more sited, together with its Supreme Court. It is faintly effective; we should deploy them all. The Helsinki ridiculous to see ambassadors and their staff spending process opened eyes and minds to systematic injustices. hours travelling from their embassies in Tel Aviv along As walls fell, this ushered in an era of extraordinary the motorway to Jerusalem every day. The population change. It remains the historic role of our two nations of west Jerusalem is 95% Jewish and it is only in west to challenge and help change even the most nightmarish Jerusalem that Trump is suggesting his embassy should and oppressive of regimes. be based. East Jerusalem, on the other hand, is Arab by a large majority, and the Arab-Palestinian population 1.26 pm there is growing. There is no way that Trump has proposed that the American embassy to Israel might Lord Turnberg (Lab): My Lords, it is always a be placed there. Now that would really be provocative. pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Alton. I join Indeed, he said in the same speech that the division others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown. between east and west Jerusalem would be entirely a The virtually universal view of President Trump—at matter for the two sides to agree between themselves. least around this Chamber and outside it—is that he is That was the second part of his speech, which was unbelievably inept at best and a malign force at worst. largely ignored. No matter that some Palestinians and Internationally, he has finished up being the most Israelis speak of Jerusalem being their undivided capital, reviled President for very many years. He campaigned I cannot believe that any sensible person thinks that on a platform of isolationism and protectionism mixed Israel will hand over western Jewish Jerusalem, with with a dose of racism, in order, he said, “to make all its machinery of government, to Palestinian control, America great again”. However, all he has succeeded nor that it is to Israel’s advantage, in any way, to hang in doing is leaving my American friends and relations on to largely Palestinian east Jerusalem. wringing their hands in despair over his domestic In truth, the battle is not about east and west policies, and he has brought America’s standing in the Jerusalem and their burgeoning populations. It is about world to the lowest level for very many years. However, the Old City and specifically the Holy Basin, where the considerable dangers follow hard on the heels of those al-Aqsa mosque, so precious for the Muslims, and the views of the man and the opinions that are now Western Wall, so significant for the Jews, are sited. projected on to American values as a whole. Despite That is where the focus of all the most vital interests in its President, America remains the dominant voice of Jerusalem lie and where there is so much mutual western democracy, whatever Trump says or does. suspicion. President Trump did not say or imply anything At a time when there are huge dangers lurking about this most contentious of all the issues on Jerusalem. around the world—as many have spoken about—when Resolution of who controls the Holy Basin has to a Russia led by a predatory Putin is patrolling our await another day, perhaps another generation. skies and seas, intent on expanding his influence, when Moving an embassy to Jewish west Jerusalem seems Chinese versions of civil liberties are inflicted on millions to me rather less contentious. It recognises where of their citizens, when a nuclear North Korea is making Israel has placed its centre of government and does all sorts of warlike noises, when Iran, with its sponsorship not preclude any negotiation between the two sides on of terrorism and untrammelled ballistic missile what might happen to the rest of Jerusalem. This may programme, is so unstable and the whole of the Middle be one of the few outpourings from President Trump East is in turmoil—when all this going on, we in the with which I feel some agreement. UK need to think very carefully indeed about jettisoning America and what it stands for when we and the rest of the democratic world need it most. We should 1.32 pm especially think about that carefully when, as the The Earl of Sandwich (CB): My Lords, I too am noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, emphasised, we need to grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown. His debate share intelligence. When America itself needs support, has already illuminated what is a very confusing, if not we should be careful how we react to its President’s threatening, picture to all of us. The President has yet outbursts. As we think of our long-term, post-Brexit to address important questions of foreign policy,because trade needs, it is worth remembering that at worst he almost everything he says seems to be designed for will be there only for eight years, and at best for four internal purposes—not, apparently, for the good of years, or maybe less. the world outside. The State Department is left wondering 765 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 766 what its job is: morale is low, people have resigned, Kosovo suffers from high unemployment and emigration, humanitarian budgets are squeezed, and the Secretary and it will depend on foreign aid for years to come. of State seems flummoxed by conflicting instructions. The US is definitely committed to Kosovo and KFOR, It is therefore hard to examine a US non-foreign and I believe that we too have a moral commitment to policy unless one makes a few suppositions. support its EU application, alongside Serbia’s, and I am going to focus on the western Balkans today, ensure that the US does as well. since our International Relations Committee has just Georgia, Ukraine and the Baltic states are on the published a report on the Balkans. The committee front line of the new Cold War. In the case of eastern also had the benefit of the evidence of the noble Lord, Ukraine, this is an active war in Europe, in which Lord Ashdown, based on his considerable experience thousands have died and are still dying. You have to in the region. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, and his believe that, whatever the chaos in the White House, colleagues must be thanked for bringing the Balkans the US Administration is following this scene closely back on to the agenda in a timely fashion, while the through NATO and its generals on the ground and Government are preparing to hold a Balkans summit. yet, to judge from recent evidence to the Foreign I have frequently asked the Government whether EU Affairs Committee, NATO is way behind Russia in its enlargement is still on the table, and the answer “Yes” preparedness for conventional warfare. We also have is sounding a little half-hearted. Rather surprisingly, to assume that, while we remain in the EU, the US is the Select Committee took no evidence from the USA behind us in supporting democracy and the rule of law and made little reference to its foreign policy.I conclude in eastern Europe. that, with such a maverick President, few people can claim to understand US foreign policy in Iran, Jerusalem 1.37 pm or anywhere else, let alone the western Balkans. Lord Cope of Berkeley (Con): My Lords, this has However,one can piece together a few facts, especially been a wide-ranging debate instituted very well by the relating to NATO, which traditionally is aligned with noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, to whom we are all the views of the US. NATO’s Jens Stoltenberg made a grateful. As one or two others have done and the noble strong stand on Georgia last year, demanding that Lord, Lord Turnberg, just did, I want to concentrate Russia remove its troops from the two breakaway on a decision that throws light on the activities of the provinces of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The US United States. That is the recognition of Jerusalem as must have been behind this initiative. On the other the capital of Israel. hand, as General Rose pointed out to the committee, My interest, as I have outlined before, is that my there is a lot of interest in eastern Europe in co-operating wife was the third generation of her family to be born with NATO. Even Serbia, he says, has held as many as in Jerusalem, having gone there for Christian reasons 22 military exercises with NATO in the past year. in Ottoman times. The family still has interests and We have to understand that, from the Russian point friends on all sides of the religions and confessions of view, it is NATO and the west that are hostile to there. The noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, pointed out them and trying to push back the frontiers through that over that period we British failed to protect the hard and soft power. My new noble and gallant friend existing inhabitants of Palestine as Balfour’s letter Lord Houghton touched on this. While President Putin promised. We also failed to prepare Palestine for claims to be a Slavophile, looking to Asia rather than independence, as we were required to do under the Europe, Russia has been leaning in both directions at mandate. Now we find ourselves facing problems there least since the time of Peter the Great. The Select again. Committee concluded that, despite Russia’s resentment, It interested me that the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, the peace and stability of the Balkans could be enhanced made such a clear distinction between east and west by further NATO co-operation and specifically by Jerusalem and suggested that east Jerusalem, in spite support for the proposed membership of Bosnia and of the statement by the President the other day, might Herzegovina, and Macedonia. It is unthinkable that indeed be the capital of Palestine. He is right to this does not reflect the policy of the new US concentrate on the Old City as the focal point. Every Administration. This is in some contrast to the apparent effort to settle the problems of these two countries by lack of enthusiasm within the EU for the accession of partition, from the Peel commission in 1937 to UN new members, stemming from President Juncker’s resolutions over the years, has recognised the inescapable comments in 2014. Some witnesses to the committee fact that the status of Jerusalem needs to reflect its felt that the EU was watering down the Copenhagen importance to Jews, Muslims and Christians if peace principles of democracy and the rule of law. is to be secured and to last. Of course, it would be I would finally like to mention Kosovo, which I easier to be consoled by the remarks of the noble visited twice with the IPU. I declare an interest, in that Lord, Lord Turnberg, if one did not also know of the I am proud to have a Kosovan-Albanian son-in-law. tremendous pressure put on the residents of east Jerusalem Kosovo is another example of a state in which we by the Israelis through residence restrictions, movement invested a lot of political, as well as military, capital restrictions all the time, building restrictions and the since the war of 1998-99. It is only half a country, building of settlements in east Jerusalem, which has while four EU countries refuse to recognise it and been going on ruthlessly for many years and which Serbs virtually rule the north with Russian approval. continues to this day. The murder of a leading Serb politician in Mitrovica It is significant, particularly in the context of this this week was another sign of insecurity there. The debate, that we and other western democracies have noble Baroness, Lady Helic, has already mentioned not followed the United States in this initiative. The roaming paramilitaries, and there is corruption. noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, hoped that, in the United 767 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 768

[LORD COPE OF BERKELEY] via the United Kingdom. That is one of the political States, democracy might help to curb the excesses of consequences of leaving the EU. It is not necessarily Donald Trump, and we all hope that. However, we the totally disastrous. Although we should have stayed, allies of America also have a duty in this respect not and I voted to stay, I do not take the view that we necessarily to follow all his policies over the years and cannot make this work, as long as we see our relationship to lean out of the boat in the other direction. with the European Union as being a close one. The damage that was done by the statement on I also emphasise what has been my view for some Jerusalem was, first, a blow to the United Nations and time: that the European Union is at best two-speed its resolutions and the rules-based order that the noble and maybe even three-speed in its approach to emerging and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, referred to in his economic and political integration. Some countries in excellent maiden speech, as did other noble Lords. Europe will head ever closer towards economic union The statement is also a blow to the idea that America and the political union that necessarily goes with might be a broker between Israel and Palestine, as that—if you have closer economic union, you inevitably previous US Presidents have done their best to be. I develop a political union—and we will be slightly am particularly sad about that because for a brief outside that, in the second or third tier of that process. period last year, when American policies seemed to be That is not necessarily a disaster. It is not the best developing, particularly in the Gulf, Saudi Arabia and place to be in, but we can make that work if we so on, it seemed that the great dealmaker, as he is said recognise that we have to be very close and have a to be—at least by himself—might open up new possibilities good working relationship politically and on the economy, of reconciling this stubborn problem. I fear that has defence and foreign policy. That is why I share my become much less likely and less possible. noble friend Lord Robertson’s view that we have to In the face of US policy, we in this country, with put the Foreign Office at the forefront of our activities. our other allies in Europe and elsewhere, need to We must also consider our soft power in all its aspects, redouble our efforts to try to bring peace in Israel/Palestine including our help to developing countries, which my but also in other parts of the world, not just sit back noble friend Lord Judd mentioned. All those things and bemoan what is happening. Of course, many will continue to be part of Britain’s influence. But our Israelis and Palestinians want to get on with one language, culture and history make it clear that another. Those are the people we should help, while relationships with the EU and the US will not necessarily doing our best to marginalise the zealots on both sides diminish. The relationship between the UK and the of this terrible divide. US is not all about the President and the Prime Minister; it is about the incredible, multilayered British 1.43 pm and American contacts—family, business, politics, Lord Soley (Lab): My Lords, I always look forward academia, science and technology—that keep us close. to these debates because I learn so much from the That has to be a key part of this. contributions made, from experience, across the House— The contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, particularly today from the noble and gallant Lord, on Iran was important and good. We need to focus Lord Houghton, who made an interesting speech more on the role of Islam. In my lifetime we got used containing some interesting concepts, which will bear to a political ideology dominating the world— rereading. communism, capitalism, Nazism, fascism, and so on. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, for That has gone and is being replaced by a religious introducing this debate in the way he did. I do not ideology, and, frankly, that has been the history of the share his slightly doom-and-gloom approach. I recognise world for several thousand years. his attempt to use the historical perspective of the The disputes in Iran and the riots in the streets are 1930s, but I would have thought that pre-1914 is more in part about the problem Iran has in marrying political relevant. One great power, the United Kingdom, was control—President Rouhani is struggling but he is in relative decline, and now another, the United States, trying to do a good job—with religion: according to is in relative decline—the emphasis being on relative both Shia and Sunni interpretations, there is no law not absolute decline, which are two very different above God’slaw.Time precludes any further examination concepts. But I accept that the position is changing. Of of that issue but we have to focus on it in the coming course, there is also our own decision to leave the decades. European Union. Finally, we also have to be aware of the role of None of these things will necessarily mean that nationalism, which I am afraid is growing in many there will not be great collaboration between the key countries in the world. That, combined with the growth western democracies and countries. Following the Brexit of ideology, is a danger we have to face. referendum, we must stay close to Europe and get closer on defence and foreign policy. In my judgment— 1.49 pm indeed, this is said within the European Union at the moment—there will be greater co-ordination of defence Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB): My Lords, I am and foreign policy in the EU. The United Kingdom grateful for the chance to speak in this debate, in ought to support that. We have to work in tandem which I have the unusual pleasure of agreeing with with that, and our relationship with both the EU and every word said by the noble Lord, Lord Lamont of the US will be—to use that hackneyed term—a special Lerwick. relationship: it has to be really close.Wemust acknowledge I will make two quick points. First, this is a brilliantly that the United States will, in due course, have to timed debate, one year after the inauguration. I am relate more directly to the European Union and less less worried than I was then about the threat to 769 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 770

NATO. The investigations into possible collusion and The special relationship is a great deal less special certain Russian involvement in the election campaign than it was. I remember in 1967 taking my then-girlfriend, in America have neutralised what I saw as the biggest now wife, around Washington with her list of people risk to NATO: candidate Trump’s openly avowed who had worked with her parents in the war. They all admiration for President Putin. If that is still in his turned out to be senior people either in intelligence head he cannot act on it, given the investigations agencies or the State Department. For that American taking place on Capitol Hill and elsewhere in Washington, generation, that was part of their formation. They had so I am slightly less worried about that. spent four years in European war. That has gone. One point that perhaps was not brought out in the People in the United States are much more likely now debate, and about which I am more worried about to have travelled somewhere else. They do not instinctively than I was a year ago, is the threat to the rules-based look to Europe. Our consensus, however, is that in trade system. The open insistence that the United spite of President Trump and all these trends, the States will no longer be bound by WTO rulings, and United States remains the indispensable power for a the attempt to subvert the WTO system from within liberal international order and we need to maintain by refusing to make appointments to panels—refusing our governmental and political exchanges with the to appoint judges in the WTO’s dispute settlement United States in spite of the blizzard of dreadful procedures—is an existential threat to a central element Twitter messages. of a rules-based system that originated here in London. On a liberal international order, I congratulate the We invented the General Agreement on Tariffs and noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton, on his maiden Trade. The WTO was run for a very long time on speech and the number of very insightful things that British expertise. When we joined the European Union he said such as, we imported the old Board of Trade expertise into it “stability and a rule-based global order do not occur naturally”. and we saw great commissioners such as Leon Brittan We have to fight for them. We have to keep them and Peter Sutherland. We should pay tribute to Peter going. We have to have an active foreign policy with Sutherland for all his work, not just in Brussels but others to maintain it against all the efforts of authoritarian also in Geneva, in all our interests. states to undermine it. He also said that a liberal It is very important if we are to leave the European international order has to be a more inclusive world Union that we remain in very close touch with it in community. support of the WTO system. To my mind, a sweetheart trade deal with the United States is a mirage. It clearly When I hear US Republicans talking about the has an “America first”policy.Weremember the inaugural importance of Winston Churchill, I remember that speech. We must not let pursuit of close contacts with the Atlantic charter, the basis for a liberal international America, which are very important, blind us to the order,was mainly written by Roosevelt and his assistants fact that the rules-based system is particularly important and signed by Churchill. US Republicans have scrubbed to an open trading country such as the United Kingdom. Roosevelt completely out of the picture. They like Churchill as a great world leader but want to shunt Roosevelt off because he believed that welfare and 1.52 pm freedom from want—other dimensions of democracy— Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, this has were equally important. been an interesting and constructive debate with It is important that we remember that because remarkable consensus across the House. Almost everyone globalisation, as we have discovered in the past 30 years, agrees with what the noble Lords, Lord Lamont and spreads inequality into our countries and therefore Lord Robertson, said about Iran, for example. I hope fuels populism. I remember reading an excellent book it does not embarrass the noble Lord, Lord Lamont, by the Harvard economist Dani Rodrik, in which he that we are very much of one view on that. says that globalisation may not be compatible in the There are three interconnected themes: first, the long run with democracy and, if we have to choose, we changes in the United States and the impact of President have to choose democracy. Trump; secondly, how we maintain the threatened That is a matter for another debate but it raises liberal international order; and thirdly, the implications some very awkward questions for those such as the for British foreign policy. On the United States, I think noble Lord, Lord Howell, who are quite fond of a most of us agree that the changes to which we have to network world. When many of those who use the adjust are longer term than President Trump and that network come from corrupt and authoritarian regimes Trump highlights and, we hope, exaggerates some of and launder their money through London and elsewhere, the underlying trends. it is not easy for us to maintain our liberal values, let When I first went to the United States in 1962, I alone spread them further out. began to learn that the Atlantic community was between Then we come to the implications for British foreign the east coast of the United States and Britain and policy. I feel a degree of underlying uncertainty as to western Europe.In those days Texas was not so important; what British foreign policy is. In his best diplomatic Massachusetts and Pennsylvania mattered much more. way, the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, suggested that he Now, California, Texas and Florida are fundamental was not entirely sure what “global Britain” means. to American foreign policy and Asian-Americans and That confusion is shared by all of us. It is rather like Latin-Americans are as important as the old, white “deep and special” and “strong and stable”. It is a very Anglo-Saxon Protestants were. The discontented convenient phrase to use when you do not want to white Anglo-Saxon Protestants form part of Trump’s explain what you mean, and that is part of the problem core vote. with British foreign policy today. 771 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 772

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] have been unable to discover them, and so has the The underlying concern was expressed strongly by Library. Perhaps he could help me and even provide a the noble Lord, Lord Robertson. He mentioned the, list of those speeches for other noble Lords who have “savage amputation of our international diplomatic capacity”, contributed to these debates. cutbacks in the Foreign Office, our embassies and the The consensus across the House about British foreign Diplomatic Service, and a loss of direction in our policy seems to be entirely clear. The United States foreign policy as such. remains important. France,Germany and other European actors are also vital. The Commonwealth is an asset, Winston Churchill, after all, defined British foreign although we should not overplay what sort of an asset policy as being based on three circles—the transatlantic, the Commonwealth is. But we do not quite know what the European and the Commonwealth. We are presently the Government think on all this, least of all how they disengaging from the European circle, without yet any will maintain the European circle alongside the American information from the Government as to how we will circle after we leave the European Union. maintain that relationship after we leave the European Union. We operate our diplomacy through 40 working 2.02 pm groups underneath European common foreign and security policy. I am told that during the Arab spring Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, I too the Political and Security Committee, in which we take thank the noble Lord, Lord Ashdown, for initiating a major part in Brussels, met almost daily for several this debate, which has been wide ranging and important. weeks and the number of Foreign Ministers’ Councils One of the good things about House of Lords debates was sharply raised. on subjects such as this are that we are not confined. We hear from a wide range of expertise on a number I am also told that the British and the Germans are of subjects. I particularly welcome the excellent maiden the ones who most regularly send diplomatic messages speech by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton round within the European Union. Wewill cut ourselves of Richmond. As the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, out of that unless we come to some other arrangement. said, he is a welcome addition to our military Benches, The Government have so far said nothing on that, and I look forward to his future contributions. except that we had a position paper last September which in detail told us how much we had gained in foreign policy and defence co-operation over the last Noble Lords: Warrior Benches! 30 years precisely from this co-operation with our European partners. On the importance of British-French Lord Collins of Highbury: Was it warrior Benches? defence co-operation, I would say to the noble Lord, There you go: that shows the difference between us. I Lord Ricketts, that when I was in the coalition will not go any further. Government, I was well aware that Liam Fox was Trump’s attack today on the free press, backed by making active efforts to ensure that as few people as Rupert Murdoch’s media empire, is full of irony.Twelve possible knew how important Franco-British defence months ago, the Chatham House report on America’s co-operation was. That was not very helpful and part international role under Trump said that his foreign of the problem that we face. There is a gap between policy path would be hard to predict. It pointed out public understanding and the analysis of where we are. his fondness for, For the past 40 years, we have worked through all “unpredictability—a characteristic long noted as dangerous in that. The noble Lord, Lord Lamont, remarked on the foreign policy—and has a tendency towards inflammatory and escalatory rhetoric. He is transactional and short-termist in outlook, importance of EU3 on Iran. It was extremely effective, has little respect for long-standing alliances and partnerships”. together with the high representative—the noble Baroness, Twelve months on, Trump started 2018 with a Lady Ashton—and it is not clear how we will maintain flurry of tweets that sparked protests across the world, that either. We will not meet our opposite numbers as caught allies off guard and further divided opinion in easily, regularly and naturally as before, so we will Washington. As we heard in this debate this afternoon, have to find some new arrangement that is so far he has split the international community and inflamed undefined. Palestinians when he recognised Jerusalem as Israel’s The day before yesterday, a number of noble Lords capital by moving the embassy. He then threatened to complained that they had not understood that Europe punish those who voted against the move at the United was a political project. Of course it was a political Nations General Assembly by cutting aid. project. It came out of the last major war. It was a I say all this because the excellent contribution project to provide European security and—as from my noble friend Lord Robertson was a telling Mrs Thatcher used to say, including in her Bruges point about this debate. We need to focus on the speech—to extend democracy. We have extended it reactions to these things, not just what Trump intended. successfully across eastern Europe. There is a positive reaction. It causes us to focus on The uncertainties of British foreign policy should what we have and the important things that we value. concern us all. I listened to Boris Johnson’s speech in Trump’s own view of his first 12 months was to praise Chatham House in December 2016 in which he his own Administration for victories against ISIS in announced that it was the first of a series of speeches the Middle East and for bringing unprecedented pressure that he would make on the redefinition of the strategy to bear on the North Korean regime. The national of British foreign policy. I have searched several times security strategy unveiled in December also labelled since then—I asked the Library to assist me—to discover Russia and China among the chief challenges facing which speeches he had since made on the strategy of the US, despite Trump’s overtures towards their leaders. British foreign policy. I regret to tell the Minister that I That has been reflected in today’s debate. 773 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 774

Ryan Crocker, the former US ambassador to Iraq security strategy, and to its allies by Russia. From our and to Afghanistan, who served both the George Bush point of view, that also links to cyber and the policing and the Obama Administrations, said: of the internet, which is becoming an increasingly “Other than the neo-isolationism I do not think there is a important aspect, not only of defence issues but of pattern to his foreign policy … I think he is purely reactive”. defending our liberal democracy and the values that But our reaction must be about what that vacuum is we have talked about. creating. That is the important role of Britain The Doug Stokes article in the latest volume of internationally in supporting a rules-based system and International Affairs, published by Chatham House, human rights. In our debates on the Sanctions and said that Trump’s administration, Anti-Money Laundering Bill this week, I was pleased “combines elements of isolationism with cost-benefit bilateralism that this House focused on the importance of championing and, most strongly of all, a deep ambivalence towards the liberal human rights, which will be at the core of our activity. international regimes that America has helped bring to birth and sustain since the end of the Second World War”. Another consequence of Trump’s actions over the But I think what I have heard in this debate is that our past 12 months has been the deep cuts to the State special relationship with the United States is not about Department budget and the dearth of high-level one man; it is about our common heritage, our shared diplomatic appointments—the failure to make key values and democracy. It is important to reflect on important appointments. As my noble friend Lord that. Our focus on that relationship cannot just be Robertson reflected, we have also seen cuts to our seen in terms of that individual relationship; it must foreign and diplomatic services which will impact on be seen much more in terms of that soft power that we our ability to fill that vacuum. There is no doubt that have been talking about, and certainly we had an Trump’s lack of interest in established diplomatic excellent debate in this House on the report of the protocols has put a strain on the close relationship Select Committee on soft power. I think it is still worth between No. 10 and the White House. However, as the reading that report because it focuses on a number of noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, pointed out, UK national key issues. I think, for peace and security,our relationship security strategy is largely designed to work this special remains very important. As James Landale of the relationship from force structure to intelligence sharing. BBC put it: It is critical. “It is almost as if the Trump modus vivendi has made it even On Trump’s “America first” agenda and the new more obvious that the transatlantic relations that matter are the national security strategy published at the end of last historic state-to-state contacts between the different agencies of government rather than the personal relations between individual year, we have heard, as the US National Security leaders”. Adviser Lieutenant-General HR McMaster said last The noble Lord, Lord Howell, said it absolutely perfectly. year,that “America First Doesn’t Mean America Alone”, We have new networks that are developing. We need to and that the US would continue to work closely with reach out to those networks, and not only new networks allies in pursuit of a global leadership. That is another of countries. One of the things that Trump’s campaign key element of today’s debate. We have the rhetoric has taught us is that there are new means of and the tweets, but we also have effective co-ordination communications. As a foreign policy objective, we at a range of levels in our special relationship, which is should reach out not only to all politicians but to civil something that we should not miss. society, because that is how we maintain our liberal The highest priority in the strategy was given to the rules-based organisations in the world. Reaching out protection of the American homeland from attack. through new media and new contacts—that is what Another overriding theme was a focus on American our soft power should focus on. prosperity as the core national security goal. I welcome I commend the debate and I conclude by thanking the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. He is the noble Lord for initiating it, but it is not the end absolutely right that there is an additional threat to and the last word. This debate will continue over the the rules-based system, which is about trade. Trade next three years of Trump’s Administration. has become one of the key focuses of President Trump. It fits in well with the presidential election narrative 2.15 pm targeted at the working classes in the US with growing The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth concerns about stagnation and declining competitiveness. Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): My Lords, I will return to this theme at the end of my speech. I first join all noble Lords in thanking the noble Lord, One of the things we have seen in the excellent Lord Ashdown, not just for tabling this debate but House of Lords briefing that we had for this debate for introducing it in a very informed and thoughtful are Professor John Bew’s observations that one can see manner. He appropriately set the tone demonstrated subtler themes in the strategy that McMaster highlighted. by all contributions to this excellent debate, which is They are talking about peace through strength—a well-informed and again reflects the best of your conscious sort of reminder of the Reagan era, reflecting Lordships’ House in terms of expertise on a wide Trump’s demands for more effectiveness and utility in range of issues. the international game. McMaster is also keen to It would be entirely appropriate at this juncture to stress that the US will expect reciprocity from its allies welcome the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Houghton in terms of supporting NATO for example, as we have of Richmond, to his place. In his first excellent speech, heard in this debate. he said he would be non-controversial. Drawing a From our point of view there are synergies in terms military analogy, he was non-combative in that sense of our concerns, particularly about the security challenge as well, while the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, welcomed posed to American interests referred to in its national him to the warrior Benches. It is for me, on behalf of 775 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 776

[LORD AHMAD OF WIMBLEDON] Lady Falkner, pointed out. On climate change, not the Government, to welcome him to all Benches. He only have we been strong, we have continued to work is a valuable addition to the House and I look forward to with other international partners. My noble friend working with him across the months and years. Lord Lamont pointed to the Iran nuclear deal and I For over a century, the most important and epoch- can assure him that we continue to work strongly with defining international partnership has been, as noble our European Union colleagues, and the EU3 in Lords have acknowledged, between ourselves and the particular, in ensuring that deal stays alive, while not United States of America. It is an alliance that has missing an opportunity to ensure that the United overcome tyranny. It has championed rules, rights and States also continues to support that important deal. freedoms that have transformed lives and livelihoods, Multilateral trade agreements and the Middle East both within our borders and beyond. The noble peace process, which I will come to in a moment, have Lord, Lord Judd, also pointed out the excellent been areas where we have differed from pronouncements relationship we have enjoyed at the United Nations made by the Administration. Notwithstanding and the important role we have played with the differences, however, we continue to work very closely United States in the UN as a P5 member. Let me alongside the Administration on all these issues, as assure all noble Lords, including the noble Lord, friends, as allies and, as my noble friend Lord Howell Lord Judd, that the UK is committed to further aptly put it, as partners in this relationship. We do not strengthening the rules-based international order and agree on everything but divergence from particular US international organisations such as the UN, which foreign policies is nothing new for the United have been central for this rules-based system for the Kingdom. British Governments of all political colours last 70 years. Indeed, before Christmas we worked have at times found themselves at odds with some with the US and other partners to secure General aspects of US foreign policy. On major post-war Assembly resolutions in support of the UN Secretary- issues such as Suez or Vietnam, the US and UK did General’s current plans for reform efforts within that not agree. The Thatcher/Reagan years are often cited organisation. as a high-water mark in relations between our two countries, yet even they were not always aligned on Together, we have a rules-based international system every issue. within which we work closely with the United States and other international partners. This system, albeit Turning briefly to Iran, my noble friend pointed imperfect, has enabled a period of relative stability out that this is an important relationship to retain. I and prosperity that we have never seen before. We acknowledge his important efforts in this regard but stand together with the United States—and with I also reassure him that the recent visit by my right Europe—in facing a resurgent Russia, an assertive honourable friend the Foreign Secretary to Iran was China and new forms of threat across the world. We a dialogue that was both constructive and raised have shared great successes, for example in the fight issues of mutual importance. Yes, we are encouraged against Daesh, in close co-operation on intelligence by some of the pronouncements made by President issues—as the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, pointed Rouhani, particularly with some of the challenges and out as part of our Five Eyes alliance—and bilaterally protests we have seen on the streets of Tehran. As we and in our shared commitment to NATO, reflected on move forward, there are important parts to this by the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts. relationship: good co-operation with the Trump I am confident therefore that we need no further Administration is important. For each of the policies persuasion, as we have all agreed, whatever perspective on which we disagree there are many more we was drawn in this debate, of the United States’ agree on. continued importance to UK interests; nor of the I shall reflect on some of the points made by noble pivotal role the United States will continue to play for Lords during this debate. The noble Lords, Lord many years to come, as pointed out by my noble friend Ashdown, Lord Judd and Lord Robertson, spoke Lady Helic, among others, in shaping the way the very poignantly of the importance of soft power. world deals with a host of issues that are fundamental Indeed, on reflecting in preparation for this debate to us. Whether we are dealing with the challenges of I was reminded that Portland Communications North Korea, or—as the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, recently did a survey of soft power which included pointed out—closer to home in the Balkans, the USA government assets, but also the private sector and its has a close role to play. In that respect, I say to the representations across the world—we were second on noble Lord, Lord Wallace—we talked about global that list. That does not mean that we rest on our Britain and the three circles—that, yes, there are times laurels. I saw, in my time at the Foreign Office, the of challenge in the UK-US relationship, but it remains, important role the British Council plays. We heard as all noble Lords have acknowledged, a constant, from the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, about Chatham constructive dialogue; from engagement across the House; I might add Wilton Park to that list. The noble board at working level to regular calls between my Lord, Lord Ashdown, pointed out some of the challenges. right honourable friend the Prime Minister and the He talked of population growth being a focus of President. The strength of that relationship means foreign policy initiatives. Perhaps he should have a that we are willing and able to have frank discussions conversation with my right honourable friend the Foreign with each other when we disagree, and rightly so for Secretary, who mentioned that very term but also the each ally. solution, which he feels equally passionate about. I am The President has set a new direction for US policy, sure it reflects the sentiment across your Lordships’ as many noble Lords have set out today. There are House, about how that can be dealt with. The noble issues of difference from us, as the noble Baroness, Baroness, Lady Tonge, touched on educating and 777 United States: Foreign Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] United States: Foreign Policy 778 empowering girls and women as part of the solution Israel, built on decades of collaboration across a to some of the challenges that we face. Girls’ education range of fields, including education, business, arts and is at the centre of that. culture. That also provides us with the strength to The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, talked about our ensure that we can have very candid conversations vital relationship with the US in intelligence. The US when we disagree. My noble friend asked specifically is a long-standing ally and I know from my time as about trade envoys. I agree with him that they play a Aviation Minister and as Minister for Countering vital role in promoting UK trade. The Department for Extremism the vital work we have done in sharing International Trade, which is responsible for overseeing intelligence and averting terrorist incidents—those our network of envoys, will announce any new changes impacting our streets here in London and across as appropriate. the world, and those in the aviation sector. Equally, I recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, put it, I assure the noble Lord that we work exceptionally that we also continue to deal with the US further closely with our European partners on intelligence afield. He mentioned North Korea, appropriately. I sharing, joint operational work and sharing our assure him that we are continuing to work very closely experience of developing threats. It is our view that with the US to put maximum pressure on North close co-operation will continue regardless of the UK’s Korea to change course and enter negotiations to future relationship with the European Union after eliminate its nuclear and ballistic missile programmes. Brexit. Through the UN Security Council we have imposed The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, again talked about increasingly tough sanctions to cut off the revenues a differential with the withdrawal of aid to Pakistan. that fund these illegal programmes. My noble friend The UK and Pakistan have shared an interest in the Lord Lamont mentioned the use of sanctions. I am battle against terrorism and we regularly highlight to fresh from the Report stage of the EU sanctions Bill, Pakistan the importance of taking effective action which we finished yesterday and which will allow us against all terrorist groups: it is a constructive relationship the flexibility, through the domestic sanctions policy that we believe in. The noble Baroness, Lady Tonge, that we will have, to continue to work with our partners my noble friend Lord Cope and the noble Lord, to ensure that we can impose sanctions as and when Lord Anderson, among others, touched on the Middle necessary. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, raised the East peace process and particularly the recent importance of the relationship that every Foreign pronouncement by President Trump recognising Secretary has had with the US Secretary of State and Jerusalem as the Israeli capital before any final status he talked about his own experience. I assure noble agreement. Let me be clear: the British government Lords that the Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson, and position has not changed—east Jerusalem is regarded my right honourable friend Boris Johnson enjoy a very as occupied Palestinian territory. It is our belief that close, co-operative, productive and constructive the prospects for peace in the region were not helped relationship in this respect. by the pronouncement. It is important, however, to As we look forward, one of the areas which has look forwards. Therefore, as the noble Lord, Lord been raised concerns the United States and the European Turnberg, also pointed out, the second part of that Union. An oft-repeated characterisation, which noble speech focused on the continued commitment to a Lords touched on, is our relationship with the US and negotiated two-state solution. It remains the view of how it frames our exit from the European Union—a the British Government that a shared Jerusalem is the choice between the US or the EU or between Europe way forward: a shared Jerusalem for Israel and a and the world. As many noble Lords acknowledge, shared Jerusalem in the context of a viable, sustainable these are false choices. Yes, we are leaving the European Palestinian state. Union, but our national interest will continue to be I turn to the global Mexico City rule that the noble aligned with the interests of our European neighbours. Baroness, Lady Tonge, raised. It is clear that we will We are still part of that continent, we still continue to not agree with the US Administration on their policy, enjoy strong relationships, particularly on security but let me assure her that the UK remains one of only and our economies. I agree wholeheartedly with noble a handful of international donors willing to tackle this Lords including the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, who highly sensitive issue. My noble friend Lady Helic implore us to continue to do more work with Europe. touched on the important issues of Burma and Syria. We will do so but our departure from the European She recognises, of course, the important work we have Union will not change the reality that global problems done, both at the United Nations and more recently at will require global solutions.They will require partnerships the Human Rights Council, in ensuring that this important and we will always need to work with countries both issue—the displacement of close to 1 million people, near and far. as she so aptly and poignantly put it—is kept at the Wecontinue to work on our relationship with European forefront of all people’s minds. I assure her that we are partners. As the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, pointed working very closely with the United States in this. As out, you need only turn on the television today to see I have already alluded to, we continue to work closely a summit taking place which underlines our close with the United States on action against Daesh in proximity with one of our closest neighbours—the Syria and Iraq. We will continue to work closely on closest if you look east—and that is France. The this with our European partners. Anglo-French summit taking place today with My noble friend Lord Taylor talked about the President Macron again underlines the importance of importance of Israel, both in the context of the Middle our relationship across many areas, including East peace process and more generally. I assure him stronger economies, our defence relationship and other that the UK enjoys strong and growing relations with areas of mutual interest. We will continue to work on 779 United States: Foreign Policy[LORDS] United States: Foreign Policy 780

[LORD AHMAD OF WIMBLEDON] that we strengthen the new relationship we will have those relationships. At the G7 summit in May the with the European Union; strengthening and continuing Prime Minister took the lead on engaging the US and to build on our relationship with the United States; European countries to co-operate on countering online and recognising—through the Commonwealth and extremism. That remains a priority on which we work other bilateral relationships—the importance of building collectively with our European partners. and developing prosperity, trade and relationships The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, talked about soft across the world. power. If we look down the list of countries, as The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, spoke in the gap, quite I said, we are second only to France. Interestingly, rightly, on the concept of trade and touched on the the United States ranked third in that survey. The WTO. Let me assure him that the UK will remain noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Wallace, also steadfast, notwithstanding any challenges, as a champion talked about trade and the definition of global Britain. of free trade at the WTO and in establishing the UK’s Let me assure the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that the future independent trade policy.As we leave the European three circles remain alive and well. They are very Union, we will continue to work closely with WTO prosperous. members, including the US, to ensure a simple, fair, As Minister for the Commonwealth I am sure that transparent transition for all parties, that minimises all noble Lords are looking forward to the Commonwealth disruption to our trading relationships with other Summit and Heads of Government Meeting in April. members. It will not replace the European Union or the UN, but In conclusion, the UK Government have engaged it is an incredible network. My noble friend Lord historically, and will continue today and in the future Howell speaks passionately, and rightly so, about the to engage, with the US Administration, issue by issue, Commonwealth relationships. We enjoy similar legal policy by policy. It is a strong, productive, important systems, education systems and languages. It is important relationship, and we will continue to work as we have we leverage those across the four important areas of always done. We will use every tool of friendly sustainability, security, prosperity and fairness. I look co-operation and influence to persuade the US forward to working with noble Lords in strengthening Administration of the benefits of working for our our role across the Commonwealth. common interests. That allows us to have those candid The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, talked about the conversations when we disagree. As we have always FCO budget. I can assure him that, in the government done, we will continue to cherish and nurture our spending review, the FCO’s non-ODA budget was fully close relationship with the US. It is a relationship protected. As we have also heard, we are working in based on shared history—as the noble Lord, Lord closer alignment with colleagues in DfID, through Collins, said—and on shared fundamental values and common-aligned objectives in our development policy. shared interests. It is a relationship that transcends Indeed most recently, along with Defence Ministers personalities and party politics—a relationship that and the Secretary of State for International Development, matters hugely to both our countries, and which has we launched a new document looking at women, been a driver of peace and prosperity for many, many peace and security around the world and at our decades. This relationship is as important today as it international partners. The document underlines the ever was before. In an age of geopolitical turbulence importance of global Britain in that area. Let me and uncertainty, it is a relationship that I believe—and reassure the noble Lords, Lord Robertson, Lord Ricketts, I am sure it is a sentiment expressed by all noble and Lord McNally, about the role of the FCO in its Lords—will endure the test of time and endure long diplomatic efforts and its embassies, which play an into the future. incredible role together with our high commissions. Finally, I once again thank the noble Lord, Lord That will continue to be the case. Ashdown, and all noble Lords who have contributed The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, asked questions to this important debate.As ever,as a Minister responsible about national resistance movements and sanctions in this House for foreign affairs, I am for ever enlightened against Syria. On the latter, without going into too and informed. much detail, those sanctions will remain in place with 2.35 pm the regime until we see a move away from President Assad. On resistance movements, I think history tells Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon: My Lords, I us—albeit depending on what the notions and government shall of course not detain the House for more than a structures are—that the first and primary objective handful of sentences. That was a very high-quality must be that they must cease violence. They must put debate—I know we always say that, but it really was. I down weapons and recognise those around them as listened to it intently and learned from it a lot. I make legitimate partners towards peace. I will write to him two comments, very briefly: I noted the point of the specifically on the observations he made. noble Lord, Lord Soley, that I was being too pessimistic—this was not the 1930s, it was 1914. I am My noble friend Lord Howell, among others, raised not sure that I draw a huge amount of comfort from the important issue of changing global relationships. that, but there we go. I was moved to be described by We can talk of relationships with China or India, and the noble Lord, Lord Howell, as charmingly old- the Government continue to strengthen our work in fashioned. No one has ever said that about me before, this respect. As my noble friend pointed out, technology and I shall relish it, coming as it does from the noble advancement, changing positions, population growth, Lord. It has been a privilege to lead this debate, and I changing dynamics, businesses, education—all these beg to move. things are changing the world. That is what global Britain is all about: repositioning ourselves to ensure Motion agreed 781 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy 782

Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy whether the Parole Board Rules were carried out. Is Question for Short Debate there a precedent for a Minister to apply for judicial review of the board’s decision? As the board is financed 2.36 pm by the Government, and probably by the Ministry of Justice, I wonder what the precedents are. I trust that Asked by Lord Morris of Aberavon the Government will get better legal advice than they Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what assessment did when they appealed to the Supreme Court on they have made of the extent to which the legal Article 50. system does justice to alleged victims in the Mr Brandon Lewis MP, now chairman of the commencement of prosecutions, the disclosure of Conservative Party, has been criticised by Sir David evidence to defendants, and the relationship between Latham, a former chairman of the Parole Board, as the Crown Prosecution Service and the police being irresponsible in his remarks. I tend to agree. If authorities. the Minister is advised to proceed on judicial review against the Parole Board, the Parole Board itself will Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab): My Lords, I hope then have to consider its position. I advise the Minister this debate is timely, given the almost daily reports of to proceed with caution. difficulties in sex-case trials. I have spent over half of my adult life at the criminal Bar, and I am deeply I have nothing against Mr Nick Hardwick, whose aware of the necessity to respond to the needs of board has a most difficult talk. It needs only one of justice as problems arise. these prisoners to go wrong to bring the whole edifice into question. I understand that only 1% do so. I hope When I became Attorney-General, the CPS was in that, in the discussions, the representations made on a mess on a number of issues. I invited a distinguished more than one occasion by the noble and learned retired judge, Lord Justice Glidewell, to chair an inquiry Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, about in which the noble Lord, Lord Dear,played an important prisoners with indeterminate sentences are not forgotten. part. I am not suggesting there is a need for such a broad inquiry now, but some particular aspects of Mr Hardwick has previously chaired the Police prosecution require some form of independent review. Complaints Commission and been Chief Inspector of The Attorney-General, by statute, supervises the Prisons. It has been noted that some gentlemen—and CPS. The House was told last week by the Minister ladies—move seamlessly from one quango to another. that the practice of him meeting the director frequently Looking at it broadly and philosophically, and not and regularly continues. I was glad of that assurance. being personal, might it be time for the Cabinet Office In my time, the directors would come to discuss problems to consider whether a much wider pool of talent in individual cases, and particularly those which might should be looked at, rather than playing for safety in be of interest to the public. In most cases, the decision public appointments and moving pieces around the to prosecute was taken by the directors but, in the chessboard? Mr Hardwick now wants more transparency; cases raised, it was of mutual assistance to discuss I wonder whether this was considered at the time of problems; I hope that, as a senior criminal lawpractitioner, his appointment. I have looked at the Parole Board I was of assistance in the delivery of justice. Rules and they are easily amendable by regulation. I hope the decision in the Worboys case to prosecute The second issue is the disclosure of evidence which only 23 counts—and, of those, only a single case of might help the defence and undermine the prosecution. rape—was discussed with the Attorney-General. I fully When I recently questioned in the House whether we understand the rationale of selecting only the best had gone backwards since 1997 in the practice of cases to prosecute. However, the machinery to ensure disclosure, the Minister blithely assured the House that the victims—including more than 100 other women, that we had not. I would be fascinated to read his according to the police—knew the reasons for non- brief on this point. The reality is that, with the growth prosecution in their cases is crying out to be revisited. of social media and the use of mobile phones, the I have no comment to make on the sentence involving volume of evidence to be considered has grown one allegation of rape. immensely and made the task of disclosure much The trial judge, the late Mr Justice Penry-Davey, more difficult. Might not the downloading of material whom I knew well, had wide experience of criminal from mobile phones during the period of alleged law and more. It seems that the sentence was within offending always be flagged up and specifically considered? the guidelines of the time. Had more cases been brought Nevertheless, the need to disclose in the interests of before the court, the sentence might well have been justice is still paramount. Last Friday’s press reported considerably more; the full gravity of the alleged offending that, after the collapse of Mr Allan’s trial and similar would have been understood and dealt with in a cases, the police in London have been issued with a sentence. new communications assurance policy to ensure full The victims are concerned about the decision of the compliance. I find the Minister’s assurance to the Parole Board to release Worboys. Their particular House now even less persuasive. concerns are, first, about how they found out and, The recorder, Mr Bruce Houlder QC, previously secondly, about the conditions on his release. Only one head of the court martial and a very experienced victim was consulted. The Parole Board is an independent prosecutor in his time, believes that something is seriously body and operates according to its own rules. The wrong with the process of disclosure. It is not a new Parole Board chairman blames the Justice Secretary problem. In July 2017, the joint report of Her Majesty’s because the victim contact service is tasked to do that. Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate and Her Majesty’s It may be revealed in the course of court proceedings Inspectorate of Constabulary warned the CPS about 783 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy[LORDS] Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy 784

[LORD MORRIS OF ABERAVON] them from coming forward when they see collapsed the widespread failure to hand over important evidence, cases, and perhaps in some cases because matters and highlighted six cases of failure and called for which might have convinced the jury of guilt do not go action. Given the Attorney-General’s supervisory forward because failure to disclose has wrecked the responsibility, I have two specific questions. First, trial by that point. when did the Attorney-General last discuss with the prosecuting authorities the issue of non-disclosure? The inspectorate report to which the noble and Secondly, was the joint report to which I have referred learned Lord, Lord Morris, referred was absolutely discussed, and what action was taken? scathing. It said: There have been many cases reported recently, I “The inspection found that police scheduling (the process of fear, but going back a little to 2015 and the case of R v recording details of both sensitive and non-sensitive material) is Salt, the then Lord Chief Justice, the noble and learned routinely poor, while revelation by the police to the prosecutor of material that may undermine the prosecution case or assist the Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, offered guidance defence case is rare”. in a case where there were difficult counterbalancing pressures, referring to, The auditing process was criticised with the comment “where continuation would offend the court’s sense of justice and that it was, propriety or would undermine public confidence in the criminal “likely to reflect badly on the criminal justice system in the eyes of justice system and bring it into disrepute”. victims and witnesses”. We are told that the Metropolitan Police is reviewing 30 other cases with the CPS. The role of the police in I recently had the experience of doing five weeks on disclosure is crucial. That is the beginning. We look a jury at the Old Bailey. One thing I took away from forward to the publication of this review. The problem that was a realisation—that no amount of evidence seems to be much wider than the detective constable in given to the Justice Committee had fully persuaded Allan’s case. We need something more independent, me of—of the sheer scale of the disclosure requirements from top to bottom, to ensure, in the words of the when faced with social media, CCTV, number plate noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, recognition and all the other technical aids which have that there is no further undermining of public confidence been so important and, indeed, so valuable in in the criminal justice system. demonstrating guilt in many cases. The quantities of material involved, and the police time taken up before and during the court proceedings, are enormous 2.46 pm requirements. They magnify massively the disclosure Lord Beith (LD): My Lords, I am delighted to requirements and the means necessary to achieve what follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, and we all seek: namely, the proper and timely disclosure appreciate his wisdom in bringing this matter before of exculpatory material to the defence. This scale of the House—although I am slightly embarrassed to be material clearly calls for a fundamental revision of sandwiched between two such experienced practitioners how disclosure is managed. I hope, again, that the as the noble and learned Lord and the former Lord Minister has been reflecting on that in the light of Chief Justice, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Thomas. recent cases. I will refer briefly to each of the three propositions that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, set out That brings me to the third leg of the question: the in the Question he put before the House. relationship between the police and the Crown Prosecution Does the system do justice to alleged victims? There Service. The CPS might well be expected to play a are many ways in which it does not, but I ask, in bigger part in trying to make sure that the police do particular: is there is a danger that not all the cases what they need to do—ensure that potentially exculpatory which could meet the evidence test are taken to trial material is found—and that in general this mass of because of the pressure on police or CPS resources, or material is properly used. perhaps because there is a wish for the trial and the The relationship between the police and the Crown prosecution case to be manageable in court and capable Prosecution Service is closer than it used to be, with of being absorbed during the process of a jury trial? If more pre-charge advice. There was quite a movement that happens, for example, in a case of rape or serious in that direction a few years ago, which included sexual assault, does that lead, possibly, to a lesser trying to co-locate the CPS with the police, although I sentence than might otherwise have been passed and detect a slight pulling back from that because of the create the situation that we have seen in the Worboys fear that the independence of each side could be case? That is the first question that I want the Minister jeopardised in some way. In this respect I would like to reflect on. the Minister to reflect, with his own considerable The second question is: does the failure to meet knowledge, on whether there are advantages in the disclosure requirements harm defendants and, in some system in Scotland, and in some other European cases, victims? Certainly it harms defendants—recent countries, or whether those systems pay too high a cases have given vivid illustration of that. Defendants price in terms of the independence of the prosecutor have often spent a long period on police bail, during from the police and vice versa. In Scotland the procurator which their reputation and their standing in the fiscal and Crown counsel are in a position to direct community have been severely damaged if not totally police inquiries, which is not the case in England. Is destroyed, for a case which does not in the end come the price paid for that the diminution of the respective to trial or which collapses in court because disclosure independence of the two bodies, or is it something we requirements have not been met. Of course, it can ought to look at? Would it be helpful in trying to cause harm to victims as well, partly because it discourages ensure that the kind of machinery we now need to 785 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy 786 handle these disclosure issues is put in place in police media in sexual cases. In the old days you had very forces and integrated with the Crown Prosecution little by way of disclosure; now, you have massive Service? amounts. From my experience of reading through it, All this has massive resource implications and we what is exchanged on social media came as a great cannot simply run away from them. The fact that we surprise to many of my age. It is, however, critical, now have a wide range of material that can demonstrate because it shows how the relationship is and, in particular, either guilt or innocence—and is very important in what may have happened. doing so—is something we neither can nor want to In the case to which the noble and learned Lord change. However, it places much heavier requirements referred, it was clear—as the trial judge found—that on the system, and I would be grateful for the Minister’s there had been gross incompetence on the part of the reflections on how that can be dealt with. police officer. As we caused inquiries to be made of the chief crown prosecutor and the chief constable, it 2.52 pm was clear that the fault was systemic. At the end of the Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd (CB): This is a timely judgment we said, in the court, after referring to debate, and I shall deal with only one of the questions another 2015 case, that we hoped that that case, and posed, namely the one about disclosure. I do so because this one, would receive the closest study by the chief this problem ought to have been solved many years crown prosecutors and the chief constables, as there ago. It is the continuing failure to solve it that I shall should be no recurrence of failures of this kind by concentrate on. either the CPS or any police force. That was more than Essentially, the one point I wish to make is that the two and a half years ago. law in relation to disclosure is clear, simple and fair: We considered asking the Criminal Procedure Rule fair to the defendant and to the complainant or victim. Committee to see if some kind of supervision could be What has gone wrong, however, is the successive failure, imposed by the courts, in imposing sanctions for a over many years, in implementing the law and having failure to comply with the law. It was thought, however, proper procedures on the part of the CPS and, more and resolved by the Criminal Procedure Rule Committee particularly, the police, to ensure that the law is that this would be impractical and have collateral complied with. consequences. I will elaborate a little on this. The law was set out Two noble Lords who spoke earlier referred to the in the 1996 Act and is clear, with its codes of practice report of the Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate and the Criminal Procedure Rules that have been and HM Inspectorate of Constabulary.It is an excellent made alongside it. There were, however, issues, and in report, conducted by two people of great experience. 2011 the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, the then Their conclusion is so important that it is worth Lord Chief Justice, appointed Lord Justice Gross to reading in full—it is a short paragraph: look into the entire system. He looked at what happened “Non-compliance with the disclosure process is not new and in the United States and in continental countries to see has been common knowledge amongst those engaged within the if we could learn anything. He came back with a very criminal justice system for many years and it is difficult to justify why progress has not previously been made in volume crime cases. clear recommendation that no legislative change was Until the police and CPS take their responsibilities in dealing needed but that a great improvement was needed in with disclosure in volume cases more seriously, no improvement how it was handled in this country. In particular, he will result in the likelihood of a fair trial can be jeopardised”. recommended that there should be a proper recognition The report set out a number of recommendations. It of the consequences of the electronic and digital age. was six months to the day that the report was published, In 1996, it is fair to say, the proliferation of documents and various things should have been done within six could not have been anticipated. The focus of Lord months. Justice Gross’s excellent report was the problem that I therefore very much hope that the Minister will had arisen in serious fraud and similar cases. He was obtain from each chief constable and each chief crown not concerned with the problem that has come to the prosecutor what has been done. We can no longer fore recently. continue this failure of accountability. There is a very As a result of Lord Justice Gross’sreport, in December broad issue to which the noble Lord, Lord Beith, 2013 the then Attorney-General, Mr Dominic Grieve, referred about the accountability of the relationship. issued a further guidance on disclosure. At the same Time does not permit that but what we must surely do time I, as the then Lord Chief Justice, issued, with is to have concrete action on the accountability of him, an agreed protocol for dealing with unused material. chief constables, who really are not accountable for We both emphasised that the proper disclosure of this matter,and much closer scrutiny of what is happening unused material, made through a rigorous and carefully in the CPS. I very much hope that the Minister will considered application of the law, remains a crucial undertake this task and put before the House the part of a fair trial and essential to avoiding miscarriages responses of the chief constables as to what they have of justice. done. It is a disgrace—I do not use that word lightly—that We both realised that there was no point in these this problem has been left unresolved for so long. fine words and fine documents without putting in place a system of training and explaining what should 3 pm happen. That was undertaken. However, as the noble Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, I congratulate and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, has the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, on securing mentioned, it became apparent in 2015 that what had this important debate.In December 2016, your Lordships’ been hoped for was not being done.Part of the explanation House voted to strengthen the current victims’ code in may be a huge rise and change in the use of social a number of ways, including giving a duty to all the 787 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy[LORDS] Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy 788

[BARONESS BRINTON] Ministry of Justice doing to ensure that best practice agencies involved in any case to follow the code. The is disseminated to all constabularies—and, if ABELS duty is presently much weaker than that. At considerations is the gold standard, will it ensure that this gold of Commons amendments in January last year the practice is rolled out? then Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Police officers report that the form filling and box Trafford, said from the Dispatch Box that the Government ticking to request an RI is overly bureaucratic and would publish their strategy to strengthen the victims’ time-consuming. Once completed, it takes an average code within the year. We know that it has been delayed of four weeks for an RI to be allocated. This is a long and we will continue to hold the current Minister and time in the memory of a small child—or of some others to account for a consultation by Easter, and for adults with learning difficulties—and police officers a strategy to be published this calendar year. The fact talked in the report about the conundrum that they that it is one year overdue has already affected the lives face. One said: “I thought, ‘I’m just not waiting—I of a number of victims adversely; we know that there can’t’. That case involved a three year-old child. Because are flaws in the system. the child was three, I knew the memory retention In the short time available in this debate, I will focus wouldn’t be great”. The parents of the child had on the experience of the most vulnerable victims. This warned that her memory would not be great and said, week the Victims’ Commissioner, the noble Baroness, “You need to get this done sooner rather than later Lady Newlove, who I see is in her place, published her because of that”. The National Crime Agency said, excellent review into the provision of registered “You can’t have one for another four to five weeks”. intermediaries for children and vulnerable victims and The officer said, “That’s too late” and explained: “In a witnesses. The review makes chilling reading. These case like that I have to make a decision—do I sit and RIs are trained to work with children and those with wait that long, and risk losing the information, or do I specific conditions who need extra support to be able try and obtain it another way?”. What does the Minister to give evidence in court. In example after example, propose should be done to simplify the allocation of police officers and CPS advisers—as well as the RIs RIs so that evidence can be taken from these vulnerable themselves—talk about how the CPS and the court witnesses speedily? process, and especially funding problems, are denying Time does not permit me to go through the these victims and witnesses their rights under our recommendations of this excellent review, which seems judicial system. to echo many of the other problems cited with the For example, the review says: early stages of the criminal justice system as experienced “One police officer described how she carried out an interview by victims. But the review is clear on the need for a with a male victim of assault with severe learning disability. She much better overview and management of processes. I said, ‘every time he spoke he just giggled and could not communicate suspect that if that happened there would also be with her. He responded really well to the male RI, who was able to fewer delays and cost overruns and, even more important, simplify the questions sufficiently for him to understand and less need to re-run trials because evidence has not been answer them. It made a big difference. The RI struggled a bit but eventually got a full account of what happened. It meant that the produced early enough or effectively enough. For children, man could have access to justice!’”. young people and vulnerable victims this is particularly In 2016, an HMIC inspection into child protection true. at the Metropolitan Police Service reported that senior Weknow from previous reports that a large percentage officers, of victims are deeply unhappy with the way that the criminal justice systems treats them. For this group of “recognised the limited availability of RIs and the negative effect this has on the quality of the service provided to children and vulnerable victims, the state has an extra duty to young people and have raised with relevant partner organisations ensure that support is offered as quickly and effectively such as the Ministry of Justice”. as possible, both to ensure a smoother journey for the It was also reported that the delays and slow processes case through the criminal justice system and to ensure in being able to hire an RI were hindering children and that their voice is heard, with appropriate support and vulnerable people in getting access to the help they justice given. needed. To quote again from the report: 3.06 pm “One CPS advocate described her involvement in a case in Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood (CB): My which the victim was a 15-year-old girl who was assaulted on her Lords, this brief and highly topical debate, for which way home. The girl had severe brain damage as a child. A we are greatly indebted to the noble and learned Lord, statement was taken and the police officer felt that the victim was Lord Morris of Aberavon, who over many years has able to do the ABE”— been a tireless contributor in this field, is focused the evidence— rather on the earlier stages of the criminal justice “on her own ... The police and the CPS could not agree and the system than on imprisonment and release. But those funding for an RI was refused in this case”. matters have been dealt with by those altogether more However, there are some good examples, too. The expert than me, not least the noble and learned Lord, Norwich constabulary uses the achieving best evidence Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, and I will turn instead to language screening toolkit, known as ABELS, to screen related questions that I have raised with the House on for the communication needs of victims. Other earlier occasions, notably on prison overcrowding. In constabularies receive information from schools or much of what he said the noble and learned Lord, social workers for children aged under 10. The problem Lord Morris, shot and wounded, if not killed, many of is that practice is inconsistent—particularly so for my foxes, but I, too, will raise the issue of IPP prisoners, vulnerable adult victims and witnesses. What is the of whom alas Mr Worboys is one. 789 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy 790

We had a two and a half hour debate on prison the courts could and should strike them down. Sir David overcrowding in September last. I know that the recent Latham, referred to already as the Parole Board chairman Lord Chancellor read it, because some of us went to between 2009 and 2012, in what I suggest was a rather discuss prison reform with him. Now we have, sworn more balanced letter, said that it was time to look in this very morning, yet another Lord Chancellor—the again at these rules. In the third letter, a member of the fifth in as many years, such is the value now placed on Bar persuasively suggested that there were good reasons that once great office. I express the hope that he and for a privacy rule: hearsay evidence is admissible and his new Prisons Minister, Rory Stewart, will now in psychiatrists, probation officers and others might well turn read that debate and pay heed to it. give information in the expectation of confidentiality. As it happens, the first leader in today’s Times He said that we should certainly beware of hasty rule squarely addresses the prison crisis.It talks of a “crumbling changes—and I agree. prison system” and the “dire” situation with fewer The third Warboys lesson is that the Ministry of staff, an ever-increasing number of assaults on prison Justice must improve its system for alerting victims— officers and fellow prisoners, and prisoners locked up including those who complained but were not themselves for very long periods. It talks of “squalid” conditions, the complainants in the charges actually brought—of et cetera. Today’s Motion refers to justice for alleged the impending release of a prisoner. victims. Justice they must certainly have, but I cannot I end by urging that the Warboys case and the accept that victims require us to pursue the course that particular problems that it has raised really ought not we have taken over recent years of ever-longer sentences, to be used as an excuse by the Ministry of Justice for to a point where in fact we now have more indeterminate losing interest in the genuine grievances of many of sentences here than in all the other 46 countries of the the remaining IPP prisoners: those whose tariff sentences Council of Europe combined. Overall, of course, we were often no more than months or a year or two but have a far higher proportion of our population in who remain incarcerated eight to 10 years after they prison than in any comparable civilised country—I have served their due punishment. Their plight has put aside, as an unhappy comparison, the United rightly been described by ex-Lord Chancellors as a States. As today’s Times advocates, sentencing guidelines stain on our criminal justice system, and so it remains. should be revisited. They are the subject of preventive detention, which is Let me turn briefly to IPPs and alas, most topically, a form of internment—and that is not our system. the Worboys case and the lessons to be learned from it. First, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, said, the prosecuting authorities, the police and the 3.13 pm CPS should always strive to charge the accused with a Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD): It is a pleasure to sufficient number of offences to represent the full follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of extent of his criminality and to indicate fully the Eaton-under-Heywood, because I agree with every degree of his dangerousness. It seems highly questionable word he said, particularly on indeterminate sentences. whether that occurred in this particular case. Although I turn, however, to the issue of rape. A startling a 16-year determinate sentence is very considerable—a statistic from the organisation Rape Crisis is that sentence represented here by the eight-year tariff Warboys three-quarters of all adults who contacted their centres got—it might be the case that he actually should have in 2016-17—and there were upwards of 65,000 of had a life sentence. That would have been appropriate them— complained of sexual violence that had occurred and would have kept him in prison altogether longer. at least 12 months earlier. Out of every 100 who The second lesson, which Nick Hardwick—who experience sexual violence, only 15% choose to report it. truly is a most excellent chairman of the Parole Board— What follows? The Ministry of Justice’s statistics, has himself been advocating, is that there should now An Overview of Sexual Offending in England and Wales, be a radical review of the rule that the Parole Board published in 2013, estimated that there were between cannot give its reasons or disclose the details of individual 60,000 and 95,000 rapes annually of men and women cases. It is perhaps worth putting on record here the in this country. As a result of the low reporting rate, most relevant provisions of the 2016 Parole Board however, only 15,000 were recorded by the police as rules. Paragraph 22(3) says that, crimes. Of these, only 3,850 were marked as detected. “a hearing must be held in private”. There were only 1,070 convictions. Do people who Paragraph 24(1) says: commit rape steal away into the darkness, never to be “The decision of the oral panel must be recorded in writing identified? No, not at all: 90% of those who complain with reasons, and that record must be provided to the parties not of rape know who the perpetrator is. For the legal more than 14 days after the end of the hearing”. system to deliver justice to victims, the first step is for However, paragraph 25, under the heading, “Disclosure the victim to make a timely complaint. of Information”, says: “(1) Information about proceedings under these Rules and the If a person is attacked by a stranger—the one in names of persons concerned in the proceedings must not be made 10 case—there is usually no difficulty in the victim public”. complaining. The police swing into action: they identify (2) A contravention of paragraph (1) is actionable as breach of suspects through descriptions of the attacker, forensic statutory duty by any person who suffers loss or damage as a examination of the attacked person, and careful result”. examination of the scene. DNA is of critical importance As it happens, there were three letters on this in and frequently CCTV plays a part. A delay in a Tuesday’s Times this week. The noble and learned complaint of this type will obviously greatly hinder an Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, suggested that investigation, and where a stranger is involved, the those rules were “almost certainly unlawful” and that chances of a conviction are seriously diminished. 791 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy[LORDS] Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy 792

[LORD THOMAS OF GRESFORD] disclosed in the usual way. Of course, the defendant However, that is not the typical case. Far more would be taking the risk of there being adverse messages, common are acquaintance rapes, where the complainant which would be admissible against him, but if he is able to identify the suspect as someone known to believed there was material that would assist him, it them: a neighbour, a friend, or someone known through would be revealed. dating. Then there are domestic or relationship rapes The complainant need not fear disclosure of her committed by people who are, or have been, intimate whole sexual history. A report published last month partners or family members. In these cases, there are by the Ministry of Justice and the Attorney-General very often serious disincentives to lodging a complaint, found that applications under Section 41 of the Youth such as the intimate nature of the offence, feelings of Justice and Criminal Evidence Act 1999 were made in shame or fear that the complainant will not be believed only 13% of the 306 rape cases examined, and 92% of or might be blamed for the offence. There may be a those applications were disallowed, so the bar against lack of confidence in the criminal justice system, or disclosure of the previous sexual history of the fears for personal safety or the safety of children. It is, complainant is very high. I hope the Director of of course, entirely understandable in human terms Public Prosecutions, Alison Saunders, who is meeting that one or more of these reasons may cause a complaint today with interested bodies, will consider a protocol to be withheld, but it obviously makes the investigator’s along the lines I am suggesting. task much more difficult. I add my thanks to the noble and learned Lord, One Ministry of Justice statistic is telling. Its researches Lord Morris of Aberavon, for raising an extremely revealed that 57% of female complainants between the important and relevant issue. ages of 16 and 59 told someone but did not tell the police; 28% told no one and only 15% told the police. 3.21 pm No one told the police but nobody else. Your Lordships will appreciate, therefore, that the evidence of a recent Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, I congratulate my complaint to a relative or friend, admissible under noble and learned friend on securing this important Section 120 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, may be and timely debate. Much is heard, and rightly so, of of real significance. the needs of victims in our criminal justice system, Another issue raised by the noble and learned Lord, exemplified dramatically in the past few weeks by the Lord Morris, was disclosure, which is a tricky problem. Worboys case. The distress occasioned by the apparent In the recent case of Allan, a huge number of emails failure to prosecute more cases involving this offender and messages had been collected by the police from and, arguably, the even more worrying failure to notify the complainant. Reports do not say precisely why or victims of the offender’s release from prison is palpable. how. Clearly, if there was something in them, as there As the Motion makes clear, there are also significant was, which would assist the defendant, it had to be issues affecting defendants, especially in relation to disclosed. I wholly commend the barrister, Jerry Hayes, disclosure of evidence material to a prosecution, which a member of my chambers, for his action as the need to be addressed, and there are also concerns prosecutor in informing the defence and ultimately about the process of decision-making on whether to discontinuing the prosecution. It was in the highest prosecute. These issues, although they have come traditions of the Bar. I also commend the CPS and the dramatically to the fore in the past few weeks, are not investigators who must have drawn his attention to new. this material. Victim Support published a report last April which It must be realised, however, that it cannot be right recounted failures to comply with the victims’ code. Of routinely to require a complainant to disclose each 19 requirements laid out in the code, three were not and every email and message that might be on their met in more than 50% of cases, including offering a mobile phones. A requirement to turn all intimate files chance to make a victim personal statement and having over to the police must be a disincentive to making a the consequences of such a process explained, while in complaint in the first place. Disclosure must be no less than 62% of cases victims were not asked proportionate. My noble friend Lord Beith asked how about their needs and assessed for an enhanced service. it was to be managed. The Allan case illustrates the In only four categories did the failure in meeting need for a further protocol that, as the noble and entitlements fall below 20%, and many were in the learned Lord, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, said, would range of 30% to 50%. Unsurprisingly victims were be fair both to the complainant and to the defendant. much more satisfied when they received all the code’s What I have in mind is that where a defendant entitlements than otherwise. There is a clear systemic clearly raises the issue of consent in interview at an failure to meet the needs of victims in a range of early stage, he should be entitled to make an application material issues. The report concluded that more first to the police and, if refused, to a magistrate, for monitoring and enforcement of the victims’ code is the preservation of any electronic messaging within a required. Can the Minister confirm that these matters specific period in the possession or control of the will be addressed in the new strategy for victims expected complainant whom he alleges consented to what to be published soon? happened. He should then be required to provide to Disclosure of unused material is another area of the investigator such key words as he thinks appropriate concern, as we have heard, which is reflected in the for a search of the material. Clearly, his name would joint report by the Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate be foremost, but so would places, events and dates. and the Inspectorate of Constabulary last June. As the The investigator would search the material according report pointed out, every item of unused evidence to those key words and anything relevant would be should be retained and reviewed to see whether it 793 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy[18 JANUARY 2018] Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy 794 could undermine the prosecution or assist the defence to enable defence lawyers to analyse all the pieces of and, if so, it should be disclosed. In practice, however, relevant information, to which the Minister replied the process was described as, that that point would be addressed. It was surprising “routinely poor, while revelation … to the prosecutor of material that no assurance on this critical point was proffered that may undermine the prosecution case or assist the defence at the time. A month on, what is the position? This is case is rare”. surely an issue which could be addressed immediately. Sensitive material is not managed effectively, and One area on which the Government have appeared prosecutors are not managing ongoing disclosure, with to take action is pre-trial cross-examination of victims, an audit process, with the Attorney-General saying in November that “far below any acceptable standard”. he welcomed the further rollout of this practice. Will the Minister say what progress has been made in this The report concludes that the failure to provide timely area and what targets have been established for its disclosure leads to, adoption? It is to be hoped that change of this and “chaotic scenes … outside the courtroom … unnecessary other kinds will not be delayed because of resource … adjournments and discontinued cases”, implications, not least because it could actually save which, money if properly employed, as well as improving the “reflect badly on the criminal justice system in the eyes of victims substantive process and helping victims cope with the and witnesses”. stress of reliving their experience. The report made nine recommendations, one for This has been an interesting and well-informed immediate action, six for implementation within six debate. I hope that the Minister will be able to give months, and one for implementation within 12 months. some assurance that progress will be made sooner Will the Minister update us on progress in the past rather than later in tackling the variety of problems nine months? raised not only by your Lordships this afternoon but While we are considering the question of resources, by other organisations to which I and other noble it is interesting to note that the Sunday Telegraph—not Lords have referred. my usual paper of choice—reported on Christmas Eve that prosecutors were being urged two years ago to 3.27 pm boost rape cases but that the CPS, The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of “found lawyers struggling with deadlines, pressing charges where Elie) (Con): My Lords, I join other noble Lords in there was scant chance of conviction”, congratulating the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, and that the service was underresourced, making it on securing this debate. difficult to achieve quality casework. The telling headline Justice is at the heart of any democratic society, and to the Telegraph article was: providing protection to the public from wrongdoers, “We warned sex trials would suffer under workload, says CPS”. while also ensuring that everyone has a right to a fair The report was published last February.Will the Minister trial, is at the centre of the rule of law. Fairness means tell us what extra resources have been allocated to fairness to all—equality of arms—and so, just as the meet that difficult situation? prosecution should have ample opportunity to present its case before an impartial court, so too should the My noble friend Lady Chakrabarti last month referred accused have access to relevant evidence and material to two recent cases in which inadequate disclosure of that might assist them challenge or rebut the prosecution material led to acquittals, after much stress on the case. The court should provide an environment that innocent defendants, and attributed this to the encourages complainants and witnesses, sometimes underfunding of an overstretched CPS and police vulnerable or in distressing circumstances, to give their service, although—one might have thought predictably— best evidence to aid the court in determining what one Nick Timothy, the Conservative Party’s answer to happened and to reach its verdict fairly. This is clearly Steve Bannon, denied that resourcing was an issue. In an important debate and one of heightened public fairness, he at least welcomed the acquittal of the interest at present in the light of some of the cases that unfortunate Liam Allan after two years of police bail have come to the fore in the media. on a charge which ultimately fell apart. The Prime Under the Code of Practice for Victims of Crime, Minister’s statement that it is, complainants are entitled to a range of services throughout “important that we look at the issue again to ensure that we are the criminal justice process before, during and after truly providing justice”,—[Official Report, Commons, 20/12/17; the prosecution of the accused. I shall not enumerate col. 1062.] them. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, alluded to was very welcome, but it needs to be followed through them and to the need for us to ensure that the code is by an independent review of process and a commitment properly applied, and I note his observations in that to ensure that adequate funding is available to train, regard. Complainants are also entitled to be informed employ and supervise the relevant staff in the police on whether the suspect is to be prosecuted and, if service and the prosecution service. dissatisfied with a decision not to prosecute, to seek a My noble and learned friend Lord Morris asked a review of the police or prosecutor’s decision not to Private Notice Question on the disclosure issue in prosecute. December. The noble Lord, Lord Faulks, took the Coming to disclosure, let us be absolutely clear that opportunity to ask whether there were, we are at one on this. Compliance with disclosure “adequate resources, by way of legal aid or otherwise”,—[Official requirements is vital if there is to be a fair trial, which Report, 18/12/17; col. 1836.] is in the interests of the complainant, the accused and 795 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy[LORDS] Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy 796

[LORD KEEN OF ELIE] Helping witnesses and victims give their best evidence indeed the whole community. All evidence upon which is of course a core part of the Crown Prosecution the prosecution intends to rely must be disclosed to Service’s role, and the CPS aims to do everything it the defendant. Furthermore, the prosecution must can to help them with the difficult and sometimes disclose any relevant undisclosed material which it is traumatic experience of appearing in court. Prosecutors not using as evidence but undermines their case or can apply for special measures to allow vulnerable, strengthens the defence case. intimidated or child victims and witnesses to give Prior to recent events, the Attorney-General had evidence in court unseen by the defendant. This can be launched a wide review of disclosure procedures in the achieved also by using videolinks. Vulnerable people— criminal justice system. His review will consider how complainants and witnesses—can receive assistance in processes and policies are implemented by prosecution giving their evidence through an intermediary in and defence practitioners, police officers and investigators. appropriate circumstances. This was commissioned following the comprehensive The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, touched upon joint inspection of disclosure by Her Majesty’s the question of the victims strategy and the extent inspectorates referred to earlier, which concluded earlier to which there was room for RIs—registered in 2017. The scope of the review is wide, covering intermediaries—to be available. We are pursuing that. cases in the magistrates’ courts as well as more complex In 2015-16, we recruited 100 new RIs, doubling the Crown Court cases and specialist types of cases, including size of the scheme. We are currently running a regional economic crime and sexual offences. The review will recruitment drive, which we hope will increase the examine existing codes of practice, protocols, guidelines numbers further by about 15% nationally.Weappreciate and legislation as well as case management initiatives the need to ensure that this is rolled out nationally and and capabilities across the criminal justice system, is not simply to be found in a few regional hot spots, if including how digital technology is used. I can put it that way. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, alluded Mention was made of recent cases of failure of to the massive increase in material that has now become disclosure, in particular the Liam Allan case. The available—for example, in the context of sexual cases Crown Prosecution Service and Metropolitan Police where social media may play such a significant part. are jointly conducting an urgent review into the Liam Of course, social media does not just reflect messaging Allan case, which collapsed at trial. Clearly, it is crucial between a complainant and a defendant; there may be that the circumstances of the case are examined, any social media involved in communication with third wider issues identified and appropriate lessons learned. parties. There is a massive amount of material there The findings of that review will be published before that is potentially relevant to any complaint. the end of this month. It would not be appropriate for Over and above that, I make one short observation: me to pre-empt that review and speculate further at very often, the defendant will know or not know this stage. The CPS and the Metropolitan Police are whether there should exist social media of that kind. also looking at all live rape and serious sexual offence We had a recent example of a case where someone cases to check that disclosure is being handled complained that photographs on his phone were only appropriately. produced at a very late hour. What I find somewhat surprising about that case is that the defendant must The Crown Prosecution Service is committed to have known all along whether he had taken such working effectively with the police in the context of photographs on his phone and whether or not they issues such as disclosure, and indeed doing so from an were there. If there had been timely disclosure of that, early stage of any investigation in order to build the it might well have been possible to recover them much strongest possible prosecution case for trial where the earlier than was done. case meets the test for charge and to bring to an early conclusion those cases which do not. It is necessary in We know that we have to address the new digital this context to be fair to the complainant and to the age in this context. Technological developments and defendant in these circumstances. the way investigations are conducted are leading to new and emerging issues. The Attorney-General’s review The Director of Public Prosecutions has a good will look at this as well as building on the recent relationship with the chair of the National Police reports on disclosure which have been referred to and Chiefs’ Council, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner identify a number of issues that have arisen with and the lead officers for criminal justice on this and regard to knowledge, skills and training. other topics. There is regular communication with The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, referred to victims’ chief constables in that context. support. We are increasing expenditure on that. The I note the point made by the noble Lord, Lord noble Lord, Lord Beecham, referred to Section 28 Beith, with regard to other systems of prosecution, in provisions on pre-recorded cross-examination special particular the position under the Crown Office and measures in that context. We are addressing this: we Procurator Fiscal Service in Scotland, where of course want to reduce the stress of court and make sure that a distinct jurisdiction is exercised because there the vulnerable and intimidated witnesses can give their Crown and the procurator fiscal are in a position to best evidence. We are rolling out a pre-recorded cross- direct the police on the conduct of any investigation. I examination system for vulnerable witnesses in Crown would not like to suggest that one system is better than Court centres in England and Wales. This will also be another at this stage. Clearly, the DPP’s guidance on tested in the context of not only vulnerable witnesses charging sets out arrangements in England and Wales but witnesses who are complainants who may be the for the joint working of police officers and prosecutors subject of intimidation, for example. during the investigation and prosecution of criminal 797 Legal System: Prosecutorial Policy [18 JANUARY 2018] Green Finance 798 cases. Prosecutors may provide early investigative advice I hope that I have reassured noble Lords that we are in serious, sensitive or complex cases, and in any case concerned about the issues raised here relating to where a police supervisor considers it would be of victims, disclosure and the need to keep vulnerable assistance in helping to determine the evidence, the victims and complainants fully informed of the outcome supervisor will be able to seek advice in that context. I of a prosecution and, indeed, the outcome of any accept that the system in other jurisdictions is different. sentence, including issues of parole. I will not go into The CPS and the police have agreed a joint approach the details of particular cases that have been mentioned, across England and Wales to monitoring and improving but I will underline a point made by the noble Lord, the quality of files submitted by the police to the CPS. Lord Thomas of Gresford: disclosure is central to our There may be instances where a police file is submitted system of criminal justice, but it must be proportionate. to the CPS and then returned in order that further When we come to deal with these issues, we must investigation or further inquiry can be made in a respect the rights and interests of the complainant and particular case. of the defendant. They are challenging issues; we are addressing them; and we shall address them further in I touched upon the matter of the progress of the the light of recent events. victims strategy that the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, I am obliged to noble Lords, and I thank the noble asked about. The Government have made a commitment and learned Lord, Lord Morris, again for this debate. to publish a victims strategy in 2018. The new Secretary of State for Justice, sworn in as Lord Chancellor this morning, has not yet had the chance to look at the Green Finance work done so far in detail, but he clearly regards this Motion to Take Note as an important part of his agenda, underlined by 3.42 pm recent events. Moved by Lord Teverson Reference was made to the case of Worboys. The Government believe that there is a strong argument That this House takes note of the case for the for reviewing the case for transparency and the process United Kingdom to remain a global leader for for parole decisions and how victims are appropriately green finance, and for the United Kingdom’s financial engaged in that process. As I mentioned on a previous sector to be resilient to climate change. occasion, there is a distinction between those who are Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, I declare my interest the victims of complaints that have been the subject of as a trustee of the Green Purposes Company, which is successful prosecution and those who have been the the green shareholder for the Green Investment Bank. victims of complaints that were not proceeded with. Regrettably, it is an unremunerated position. In the latter case, the matter of intimation is discretionary rather than obligatory. The Secretary of State made a An interesting thing that happened when the Statement to the other place on this matter on 9 January. appointment of myself and my four fellow trustees of He has spoken to the chair of the Parole Board and the Green Purposes Company was announced was the Victims’ Commissioner about what changes might that the five of us were described in one publication as be made in the present circumstances, and the Ministry “reliable eco-warriors”. This took us rather by surprise of Justice will lead the review with the view that because we had never really thought of ourselves in decisions can be taken on this by Easter. that sort of role. Certainly, and probably unfortunately, I have never been on a Greenpeace ship in the Southern Very briefly—as I am living on borrowed time at Ocean protecting the orange roughy from being this point—I shall respond to some points. The noble exterminated. and learned Lord, Lord Morris, asked me two questions. What the five of us also had in common, apart from First, the Attorney-General last discussed non-disclosure that description, was that we had all been involved in with the DPP on Monday 15 January; it is a current various ways in the finance sector. It struck me then issue. The Attorney-General’s review of disclosure how many in the outside world see a contrast, if not a was triggered in part as a result of the joint inspectorate contradiction, between high finance, or finance generally, report that has been referred to. Progress by the CPS and those who are concerned about and campaign for against the recommendations in that report is the the environment; they are seen very much as separate subject of regular discussion at the superintendents’ bedfellows. If I want to do one thing in this debate, it meetings. is to show that it is vital that those two characteristics— I am not going to go into the details of the Worboys those skills, those markets, those interests—are indeed case and what was and was not prosecuted. The noble bedfellows in the way that the future of our planet and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, develops. suggested that perhaps not all appropriate cases had The background to this debate is, inevitably, the been prosecuted. It would not be appropriate to speculate Paris agreement of December 2016. Its headline purposes on that; the CPS has an evidential test to apply, and I were to reaffirm an international agreement on the would not seek to second-guess the process in that target for a maximum planetary temperature change context. However, I would say that Worboys was a of 2 degrees, but the island nations of this world in case of an IPP sentence but I see no reason why that particular aspired to an increase of only 1.5 degrees. particular incident should impact directly upon our When I secured this debate, I wondered what the consideration of how we are going to proceed in the financial size was of the commitment to meet the Paris context of IPP sentences in future. That is a matter agreement. The numbers are very difficult to envisage that has been the subject of ongoing debate and but I shall give the House two of them. The first is that discussion and will no doubt continue to be. $100 billion a year is needed by 2020 to support 799 Green Finance [LORDS] Green Finance 800

[LORD TEVERSON] green bonds that we already have in this country. climate action just in the developing countries—that There are also the insurance and reinsurance markets, does not even include the developed world. Secondly, including catastrophe bonds and resilience bonds, carbon the International Energy Agency estimates that $26 trillion trading, private equity and venture capital, crowdfunding of additional investment is needed in renewables and and, right down at the retail end, green collective energy efficiency between 2015 and 2040 to achieve investment schemes and green mortgages. All have a even the two-degree target, and that is just in clean place in the financing of a clean future. energy efficiency and generation. However, it is not Secondly, the UK is an environmental hub. We have just about those areas. We also have a need for energy international NGOs such as WWF, Greenpeace and storage, recycling and circular economy systems, right Friends of the Earth headquartered in London. We the way down to the minutiae of smart meters, home have superb environmental consultancies such as E3G, insulation and research and development into new university centres of excellence such as Imperial College’s technology. It is blindingly obvious that public sector Grantham Institute and—more down my way in the money has no chance of getting anywhere near those south-west—we have the internationally renowned Met totals, so private sector investment is vital. Office, based in Exeter. That is merely around the mitigation of climate We also have environmental leadership. That came change. In terms of adaptation, major weather events partly out of the Climate Change Act, which we as a demand major upgrading and the provision of public Parliament passed 10 years ago. The original Stern and private infrastructure, the most obvious element report is still highly regarded. We have had, and still being coastal defence. The key role here is that of the have, leadership in the European Union on climate insurance industry in covering the costs of flooding, change. Our sherpas were key in delivering the Paris storm damage, firestorms and droughts. The numbers result. We also have the leadership shown by Governor show that insured losses have increased from an average Mark Carney and the Bank of England, co-chairing of around $10 billion per annum in the 1980s to an with China the G20 Green Finance Study Group, and average of around $45 billion per annum—a fourfold Carney’s leadership within the Financial Stability Board. increase so far by this decade. Overall losses are up I congratulate him on the work that he has done, and threefold over the past 30 years: there are some four on what he has brought to international attention in times the amount of insured losses. the financial sector. Taking those mitigation and adaptation imperatives My point is that this is the perfect match in the to meet the climate change challenge, and then connecting making. London is best able to provide us all with a with the world of finance, we meet head-on the challenge sustainable future, and that sustainable future needs of financial stability and resilience. Two threats are the power and skills of London. When I say London, I seen here. One is transition risks, which are about the mean the broader UK financial community as well. reallocation of assets from dirty to clean technologies. This can be win-win for the City and for our planet. The challenge is to do that in an orderly market Let us make no mistake: this transition to a clean transition. The remedies are classic: green investment economy is going to happen. As we have seen across finance; transparent corporate reporting around assets, the Atlantic, despite Trump’s efforts to reverse the not least the potential stranded assets; and corporate clock, American states and corporate America continue environmental performance. Then there is the adaptation to move down the path to a clean economy—rather side—the physical risks of climate events, which are too slowly, but the economics are driving that just as very much down to the insurance and banking sectors. much as the politics are resisting it. Why is this important to us? As we know, the UK, The only questions for us are: are we to remain at particularly London, is a global financial centre. Let the centre of these new opportunities, and how do we me give some of the numbers again, although many consolidate our lead? Scandinavia is already rearing people here for the debate will know them. The City its head in this area, and there will be major investment and the financial sector generally in the UK offer, and in Asia in the future. The French have already issued a provide, £125 billion of gross value added. That is sovereign green bond worth some ¤7 billion. We cannot some 7% of total UK GVA. Its trade surplus is something be complacent. We must maintain our position by like £26 billion, it employs 1 million people—some breaking down barriers, and building on our competitive 3% of all jobs—and gives a tax take of more than advantage. £70 billion, which is some 11% of Treasury receipts. The barriers are generally seen as externalities, such Only 50% of that GVA is in London. Another 10% is as the total costs not meeting the complete environmental in the south-east and 7% in Scotland, which is another and social costs, maturity mismatch, lack of clarity, important centre. asymmetric information and inadequate analytical Why is green finance an opportunity? As well as capabilities. In London we can be really good in most being an important economic hub, the UK has an of those areas. But I must say to the Government that important financial ecosystem. First, we have world-class we also have barriers in the UK, such as a shrinking commercial legal practices, English contract law, the home market. This week the Bloomberg New Energy London Stock Exchange, AIM and other world-class Finance report points out that UK investment in financial exchanges, top global universities and business renewables and smart energy technologies fell by more schools, and a vibrant fintech sector. We can also than half—by 56%—in 2017, the biggest fall in provide the full range of financial services, not just the any country. obvious Green Investment Bank-style investment finance Our access to European Investment Bank money and green bonds—although I recognise and congratulate will disappear following Brexit. The EIB has provided HSBC and Barclays on the issuance of foreign currency loans of more than ¤37 billion for UK energy 801 Green Finance [18 JANUARY 2018] Green Finance 802 infrastructure since 2000. In the UK we have a lack of I am very excited that after what one might politely pace. The Smart Meters Bill will come to us shortly, call a lull, this Government have finally got their green yet when I came to the House over 10 years ago that mojo back. It cannot go unnoticed that we now have was supposed to be urgent. We also have the uncertainty three important Ministers at the heart of government over Brexit and its effect on our financial sector. re-energising and driving the green agenda forward What is the answer to this? There is an important again. I was delighted to see the Climate Change agenda. We need action from the Government to Minister promoted to the Cabinet in the recent reshuffle. achieve the fourth and fifth carbon budgets to make She is the author of the clean growth plan and I know sure we have a good home market, and we need to from personal experience that she is fizzing with ideas keep our environmental and financial communities and absolutely determined to turn them into action. I here in London and in the City coherent despite am delighted to see that the Secretary of State for Brexit. I believe that we need to remain a member of Business, Enterprise and Industrial Strategy remains the EU ETS. We need to continue welcoming all talent in his place—I am sure that was always the Prime into the City, including from non-environmental areas. Minister’splan—to drive forward that industrial strategy, We need to create and validate world-class benchmarks which has a rich green vein running through it. I know and indices. We need to keep standards in our financial that he is absolutely committed to the decarbonising affairs that keep out “greenwash”, which is so easily agenda. Perhaps for many the greatest surprise of this done and will undermine our reputation, and to stimulate parliamentary year was the vigour with which the new retail investment products so that households and Secretary of State for the Environment has grasped individuals can also participate in this market, as well this agenda. Those of us in particular who may not see as product development and research. We need more eye to eye with him on his Brexit views could not fail mandatory reporting for UK-listed companies in line to be impressed by the reforming zeal which he has with the recommendations in the excellent report of brought to that brief. He has turned Defra from an the Financial Stability Board’s Task Force on Climate- outpost and backwater in Whitehall to probably the related Financial Disclosures. As a former trustee of a most exciting department in government. That is great. local authority pension fund, I know we need to show I can honestly say that I have not been this excited that fiduciary duty does not always mean conventional about the Government’s green agenda since 2006, investment in huge pension funds. when I was pulled to the top of a glacier in Norway I welcome the Government’s green finance task alongside David Cameron by a group of rather photogenic force but we need to seize the moment now. The good little huskies, who together helped us push the green news is that this programme requires little public agenda to the top of the political agenda back here money to implement but does require legislation and at home. some regulation. We need to reinvigorate our Following that politically important trip, I was very environmental leadership and remain outward-looking proud to play my part in taking the Climate Change as much of the investment will be in the developing Act through the House of Commons for the world. Therefore, I ask the Minister to take very Conservatives. The great thing about that Act, which seriously the recommendations of two excellent reports had a few critics at the time, was the strong cross-party among many: the City of London’s Fifteen Steps to consensus that underpinned it. It is a tribute to the Green Finance and the report of the FSB’s Task Force Labour Government of the time that they brought it on Climate-related Financial Disclosures. Will the forward, but in Committee, the other place and here, Government move forward those recommendations—not Parliament was at its best, and being constructive. least, as a starter,the City’s demand for the establishment The criticism we faced on the climate change legislation of a new UK green standards board? Will the Treasury was that we were unduly precipitate in acting the way issue a green savings bond, like the French? we were,legislating in quite a dramatic wayand responding The Clean Growth Strategy and the 25-year to a threat that was not yet proved. Some of the environmental plan are welcome but do not contain assumptions that we put on the face of the Bill, enough action. We need action now. This is a golden requiring emissions reductions for decades to come, green win-win opportunity. In Cornwall we say, “This were very bold indeed. We had no way of knowing is the moment to ride the wave”. I challenge the whether we would be able to achieve them. I am Government not to miss that opportunity. I beg to particularly proud that, thanks to that strong cross-party move. action, we have an Act in which targets are being met. We have met the carbon budgets up to 2017. Although 3.56 pm there is more action required to deliver the carbon Lord Barker of Battle (Con): My Lords, I draw budgets in the coming decades, I am confident that noble Lords’ attention to my entry in the register of there is the will in government to close the relatively interests, particularly my commercial interests in the small gap that will see us through to the 2030s. clean energy economy and my membership of the I do not want to sound complacent. I do not boards of the Environmental Defense Fund Europe pretend that this is going to be easy—the easiest things and the Climate Group. are probably behind us now. We can all marvel at the I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, on fall in the cost of clean energy. It is quite extraordinary. securing this important debate and on his excellent When I became a Minister in 2010, the subsidy for the speech. That should come as no surprise as I have smallest solar installation was 43p per kilowatt hour. engaged with him over many years. He is not only very To all intents and purposes, there is barely a solar knowledgeable on this issue but has a broad horizon. subsidy now. At a commercial level, solar farms are The points that he made were very apposite. going into operation without any subsidy at all, but the 803 Green Finance [LORDS] Green Finance 804

[LORD BARKER OF BATTLE] We therefore need to look carefully at the profitability of solar continues to grow. This is fantastic recommendations of the green finance task force that and confounds all of those sceptics and naysayers. It the Government have set up, particularly as it relates fully warrants the Government’s intervention and public to transparency—as the old adage says, “If you don’t investment in those early schemes and tariffs. measure it, you can’t manage it”. We also require far more of our institutions—in fact, the vast majority of Here we are in 2018. Not only was the UK the first our City institutions—to engage much more strictly country to introduce binding domestic climate change with this agenda and to be much more open and targets but, in 2016, as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, transparent in the investments they make. said, we were instrumental in helping secure the Paris I was interested in a report that Christian Aid Agreement. Since 1990, our national carbon emissions produced and kindly sent to me ahead of this debate, have fallen more and our national income has risen entitled Our Future in Their Plans: Why Private Finance faster than any other nation in the G7. We have proved is the Public’s Business, in which it commended once and for all that you can reduce pollution while Aviva and Legal & General for their response to Paris, increasing prosperity. their clear targets and their positive engagement. The latest figures from the National Grid indicate Unfortunately, nearly all the other institutions that that last year was the greenest year ever for the energy were measured fell far short of what we need in the sector. Between June and September, almost 52% of current post-Paris age to deliver those 2020, and indeed electricity generation came from low-carbon sources 2050, climate targets. and we now have the largest installed offshore wind I am an optimist, but we need the Government to capacity in the world. The cost of offshore capacity is continue to lead if we are to maximise the impact that tumbling thanks to that early government support. We the City of London and British financial institutions are also continuing to phase out coal; the leadership can have, not just here in the UK but around the that the UK Government are taking on that is particularly world, in helping stave off the worst impacts of man-made commendable. However,all of this investment historically global warming. and in the future is dependent on raising sufficient scale of finance. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, 4.07 pm said, the amount that we have to secure is mind-boggling. Baroness Kramer (LD): My Lords, I suspect that My first real engagement with this agenda came in everybody in this Chamber and most people who will 2010, when I attended my first international climate read Hansard are incredibly well aware of how countries conference as a Minister. That was in Oslo, just after across the globe—not just the traditional green players the May general election. At the time, the international but new powerhouses, notably China and India—are community was doing its best to pick up the pieces now absolutely determined to achieve green economies. after the disappointment of Copenhagen in 2009. One Our first two speakers, my noble friend Lord Teverson of the few positive things that came out of Copenhagen, and the noble Lord, Lord Barker, gave us a sense of thanks to Gordon Brown, was the commitment that the extraordinary size of the investment that is necessary the UK secured to mobilise $100 billion in climate to back up that ambition. Werecognise that we ourselves finance a year, by 2020, from developed to developing cannot possibly achieve our environmental goals, and economies. However, that was about as far as it went. those countries certainly cannot achieve theirs, unless It was a vague ambition—an aspiration. It was not at we unleash the power of the financial markets to all clear where that money was going to come from or underpin green policies. Mark Carney has warned us where the split between the public and private sector that if sustainable strategies fail, our own economic would be, which was open to a broad interpretation. future will be threatened. We therefore have every interest in making sure that the green finance agenda On the flight home, sitting with my private secretary, is a success. I began to scribble a few questions on the back of an So far, London has played an important role in easyJet napkin. Which institutions will create these developing green finance. There are 64 green bonds products? Which fund managers will buy these products? listed in London, raising over $20 billion in seven Which investment banks will invest in creating these currencies. However, we need to be honest: it is not a markets, and, in fact, which markets will support these dominant role. In 2017, London listed 27 new green products? There were so many questions. When I came bonds, raising $10 billion, but across the globe the back, therefore, I convened a round-table discussion issuance of green bonds totalled $120 billion. Part of of a few people from the City. That small discussion that was purely domestic—not all of it was became something called the capital markets climate international—but it makes it clear that the dominance initiative, which in turn, by the time I ended my tenure, London is often used to in the sectors in which it leads had grown to include about 60 or 70 UK institutions is not yet established in this field. We have expertise in from the City. I became incredibly impressed by the renewable infrastructure funds and in green indexes way in which City institutions are keen to engage on offered through the FTSE Russell, and we are known this agenda, prepared to think beyond tomorrow to for our ability to innovate. But this is a wide-open years to come, and prepared to innovate to design the market. Hong Kong, Luxembourg, Paris, increasingly, type of financial products we need. However, there is and New York are all players; the Irish and the Swedes still a strong requirement for government leadership—for are taking initiatives in this area. I wish to see London government to convene, and, when necessary,to intervene confirmed as the leading international financial centre in the market. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, for green finance. Of course, the Government’s green there is still a need for international leadership. finance task force is looking at these issues, but let me 805 Green Finance [18 JANUARY 2018] Green Finance 806 recommend four actions the Government could adopt Other noble Lords have said that this has to be sooner rather than later that would be game-changers underpinned by investor confidence that the projects in confirming London’s role. financed through green instruments are genuinely green. First, the Government should issue their own green This is an area where the UK, because its regulators sovereign bond. This would act as a mechanism to are so highly respected, can lead. finance the UK’s own portfolio of commitments to All around the globe, various different entities have green infrastructure. Clearly, the money could be used sprung up to provide verification for green projects. for energy-efficient home building and indeed for zero- Some of them are not-for-profit, some are charities. carbon homes—an opportunity for the Government But frankly, it is such a diverse and complex arena of to bring back a programme that, frankly, they should verifiers that we can legitimately ask whether people never have abandoned. It could underpin pilot and investors understand the standards they establish. programmes in carbon capture and storage. It could Who verifies the myriad verifiers? So far, no one is be used for the long list of green transport, land playing that kind of role. That is a serious role for the management and energy projects the Government have FCA—verifying the verifiers and assuring standards signed up to. Just as significantly, it would be a prestige for any green issuance in the UK. It would enhance instrument, attractive to a wide range of investors, the UK’s global status. We all recognise that in contrast, educating and pump-priming the market. The noble nothing would kill the market faster than a suspicion Lord, Lord Barker, talked about the importance of of falsely green claims. pump-priming technology. It is just as important to This is not a time to be complacent. The climate pump-prime new financial instruments, and this is an change agenda is urgent and we must support it in any illustration of that. For those who say that this is way we can. But if we can do it in ways that also slightly off the wall, my goodness, China, France, enhance the UK’s global role in finance, that would be Nigeria and even Fiji have issued green sovereign a second prize worth winning. bonds. We have a lot of catching up to do to be a major prestige player. 4.15 pm Secondly, for London to lead we need to develop Lord Mountevans (CB): My Lords, I add my thanks the retail market in green finance—instruments small to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for his insight enough and local enough to attract the ordinary investor. during this debate, and for providing an opportunity We are seeing some action at the retail level: Triodos, to address this important issue. My City interests are Ecotricity and Belectric are three examples. Abundance recorded on the register. is a world-leading platform that allows small investors I approach this debate not with the intention of to put their money into green projects—I was looking giving an environmental sermon, but as a businessman, at its website this week—from a solar farm to the having had the privilege of launching the Green Finance green use of whisky residues. However, it will require Initiative at the City of London Corporation back in work from the Treasury to make IFAs and other 2016, alongside Sir Roger Gifford, one of my predecessors advisers aware that they can recommend such options as lord mayor and now chairman of the initiative, the to clients who desire them, and broader public education so-called GFI. Tackling climate change is one of the is critical. Financial education—financial literacy, if defining challenges of our time, but it also represents a you like—must extend to cover the green investment material and financial risk to us all. Left untackled, sector. the cost of climate change will permeate throughout Undoubtedly there is potential for tax policy to the financial services sector—via pension funds, share support both the green bond and retail markets. The prices, premiums and loans—not to mention the impact US offers tax incentives for bonds financing green on GDP and the wider economy. We therefore face an buildings and renewable energy. For people who think economic and prudential as well as an environmental that the US is well behind the curve, this is an example imperative to act now. of where it is ahead of it. Brazil allows tax-free bonds At its core, the appeal of green finance is that it to be issued for wind. China is working on proposed invites businesses, savers and investors to contribute to tax incentives for green bonds generally. Mexico and tackling pollution and climate change while safeguarding India have tax incentives for green bonds at municipal long-term profitability. In short, it is what I like to level. Even Singapore has a grant scheme to cover the think of as business playing its part in addressing costs of green bond verification. climate change. Over the last decade, green finance has What about a green mortgage scheme? Barclays has risen to the top of political, regulatory and industry issued its first bond secured against mortgages on agendas worldwide. This was demonstrated at the G20 homes that meet energy specifications: what an effective summit in Hangzhou in 2016, where world leaders way to drive both energy-efficient new build and retrofit. made an historic commitment to “scale up” green There should not be one or two instruments from one finance after President Xi adopted it as a key issue for bank or another; they should be widely issued. Central the first time. and, especially, local government could play a significant It is well known that Paris has long identified the role in helping this market by encouraging or even value of green finance, and has been driven in particular sponsoring similar instruments. The US, never slow to by a moral vigour since the 2015 UN Climate Change seize an opportunity, is pioneering a range of green Conference at which the Paris Agreement was negotiated securitisations well beyond mortgages, and Fannie and adopted. Indeed, as noted, France became the Mae—going back to something close to the mortgage first country to issue a sovereign green bond in 2017, market—has completed one of largest ever issues to underlining its desire to be seen as a driving force for back energy-efficient housing retrofits. the implementation of the goals of the agreement. 807 Green Finance [LORDS] Green Finance 808

[LORD MOUNTEVANS] focusing on the global development of green finance. However, London’s appeal lies in the fact that it can Importantly, in 2018, the GFI expects to conduct offer more than worthy intentions; the UK can provide detailed work in a number of areas including green commercial expertise and a global business hub with standards for strategic investment in belt and road which to grow this new and innovative product. One of infrastructure. Your Lordships might also be interested the City’s great strengths is its ability to capture fresh to know that, in 2017, the GFI also signed a formal trends and evolve, as demonstrated by the growth of partnership with its Brazilian counterpart, the Council Islamic finance in London in recent years, for example. for Sustainable Market Development, focusing on Since 2008, the UK has led international efforts in public sector leadership, standards and certification, green finance, launching the first offshore green rupee and data. and renminbi bonds in 2015 and 2016 respectively. I Ultimately, the success of green finance lies in had thought that there were now 59 bonds but I was collaboration. International leadership and partnerships delighted to hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, will be key to driving capital flows through London that there may be 64 bonds listed in London in seven after the UK leaves the EU. It is essential that London, different currencies—a sign of how rapidly the global as a financial centre, remains flexible in adapting to appetite for green products is growing and of how the needs of investors and customers in order to quickly the market is expanding. continue as a global leader in green finance. To this However, your Lordships will recognise that green end, the City of London has already focused attention finance still occupies a niche position in relation to the via government, business,banks and institutional investors UK’s wider financial services offering. I look forward on ways in which to grow the sector, while promoting to seeing the results of Sir Roger’s labours at the GFI, best practice. Combined with the Government’s and the results from the Government’s newly launched commitment to a new industrial strategy, which your green finance task force, which will publish its Lordships debated in this place only last week, and the recommendations in the spring to accelerate the growth Clean Growth Strategy, the UK is in a strong position of green finance in the UK. to capitalise on progress already made. May I take a moment to be so bold as to make just two suggestions that I hope the Minister will take the 4.23 pm time to reflect on? First, I would join with the previously The Lord Bishop of Durham: My Lords, I add my made request for the Government to consider thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for securing implementing the recommendations from the Financial this debate. This year’s COP 24 UN climate change Stability Board’s Taskforce on Climate-related Financial conference will be a crucial opportunity for the world Disclosures, particularly in relation to greater corporate to accelerate its climate ambitions in order to try to disclosure. Indeed, through its work with the green meet the 1.5 degree Paris commitment. This country finance task force, the GFI can act as a hub for faces a choice: do we want to lead the charge on this or exchanges between public and private sector to explore drag our heels somewhere near the back? I welcome policy proposals for implementation, including existing the UK Government’s recent focus on environmental UK codes, regulation and laws. issues. Initiatives such as the green finance task force, Secondly, I urge the Minister to forget all that he the endorsement of the Financial Stability Board’s learned in history lessons and consider following French task force on climate-related financial disclosure and footsteps. I refer to the flotation by France of a the UK’s setting up of the Powering Past Coal Alliance sovereign green bond previously mentioned. It would at COP 23 all show how we are influencing discussions certainly be a significant, symbolic and practical step at global climate change meetings. for the UK to issue its own sovereign green bond and I Good progress is being made, but there is more that know that the financial services industry would welcome the UK can do to be a global leader in green finance. this most warmly. Interestingly, Paris has issued a This is an effort that requires the leadership and hard green bond—an idea not yet contemplated by London. work of the Government—and, crucially, as other But it is encouraging nevertheless to note that Transport noble Lords have noted, the co-operation, collaboration for London in fact issued its own first green bond back and initiative of private business.Vital to this is recognising in 2015. This may be a good moment to note that, in that sustainable business is good business. The idea my understanding, there is no premium for green that a business model that incorporates environmental finance, so it is competitive. and social responsibility is in conflict with financial Also central to the sector’s success here is the results and the bottom line is simply a fallacy. A Government’s ability to promote the UK as a key business that manages environmental and social issues destination for green inward investment, and the well is a more sustainable one, even if the results take a development of financial relations and solutions abroad little longer to bear fruit. Businesses and banks have through our green financial expertise. Given the much to gain from the growth in the market for considerable time spent in this place discussing our renewables and from reducing their exposure to the existing trade relations, green finance presents an risks associated with lending for fossil fuels. opportunity to consider new relationships with trading Sustainability starts with transparency. There must partners around the world and a chance to exert be a culture change in financial reporting methods so Britain’s soft power. that companies disclose to shareholders and investors The Green Finance Initiative has established formal the full extent of their carbon footprint and how they partnerships with its Chinese counterpart, the Green are working to reduce it. This was the recommendation Finance Committee.As confirmed by the recent Economic of the Financial Stability Board of the G20 last year. I and Financial Dialogue, it is an extensive partnership am proud to say that the Church Commissioners were 809 Green Finance [18 JANUARY 2018] Green Finance 810 recently successful in passing a shareholders’ resolution DfID is doing excellent work in helping people to asking the oil giant Exxon to report on how its business access clean energy overseas—for example in its Energy model will be affected by global efforts to limit the Africa campaign, which focuses on off-grid solar energy. average rise in temperatures to below 2 degrees centigrade. However, recent figures from CAFOD show that the As Christians, we in the Church recognise that humanity UK Government overall are still spending more on has a God-given responsibility for the stewardship fossil fuels than on renewable energy in developing and care of the earth and its creatures, and this is just countries. Will the Minister commit to investigating one part of embracing that responsibility. Several of how more support can be given overseas for renewable Exxon’s peers, including BP and Shell, have already energy and less for fossil fuels, particularly in developing followed suit, sending out a very strong signal that nations? investors expect businesses to integrate climate change As I said in my opening remarks, for our financial considerationsintotheirbusinessstrategiesanddisclosures. sector to be resilient to climate change, the impetus Crucially, however, these disclosures are not mandatory cannot come exclusively from a government-only initiative. for all companies. Will the United Kingdom Government It requires the collaboration and full commitment of consider introducing mandatory carbon emissions the entire financial sector. As yet no UK bank has reporting for companies to ensure that investors have produced a clear transition plan for energy financing. all the information they need? Banks have a vital role to play in the shift to clean While transparency is necessary at a basic level, we energy—in investments both at home and overseas—since need to be much bolder than this, investing in green renewable energy companies are typically more dependent energy in creative, new and dynamic ways. It is an than fossil fuel companies on bank financing. This is uncomfortable reality that, even if the Paris pledges particularly true in developing countries. Yet many are are implemented in full, we will probably not keep complicit in using customers’ money to finance projects warming below the 2 degree goal. Far more investment that are literally fuelling climate change. HSBC, for is needed in low carbon and other sustainable example, has provided $45 million of bank guarantees infrastructure and technologies. Once again the UK to Adaro Energy, which is one of Indonesia’s largest must lead the way on this and work to make the coal producers. capital markets greener through good policy. There is Having said this, there is reason to be hopeful, and a real need here for vision, policy stability and clarity there are some excellent examples of good practice. In in long-term policy objectives.Up to now,UK renewables 2015, Barclays participated in loan syndicates that policy has been riven by inconsistencies and some provided more than $1.3 billion in direct project financing stops and starts. The Government’s recent sale of the to six large-scale renewable projects in South Africa, Green Investment Bank, which might have overseen including three wind farms and three solar plants. I much of this innovative investment, leaves Britain commend Christian Aid’s Big Shift campaign, which without a key vehicle for supporting green projects. I calls on the UK’s largest high street banks to ensure find this a disappointing decision for a Government that their lending practices are in line with global who are supposedly committed to green finance and climate ambitions, setting ambitious and measurable combating climate change. targets to increase lending to renewable energy projects While much progress has been made in decarbonising while decreasing loans to fossil fuel companies. Here is current UK power supply, long-term decarbonisation another excellent example of how civil society can policy for areas such as transport and housing, in engage with making a real difference on this issue. particular, is far less clear. The Institutional Investors Though there are clearly many opportunities to Group on Climate Change in a report in 2017, for invest in large-scale renewable energy, small-scale and example, recommends implementing binding regulations off-grid energy systems often make the greatest difference to ensure that all new homes and commercial buildings to poor people in rural and isolated communities by are near zero emissions. An encouraging step in the providing clean and safe energy for household cooking right direction in respect of transport was the announced and lighting. In Burundi, for example—a country with intention to ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars which I have close links and which I regularly visit— and vans from 2040. I will ask the Minister two Christian Aid, in partnership with COPED, is working questions. First, when can we expect to see clear on a renewable energy pilot where the by-product policies for both homes and commercial properties to from processed palm oil is converted into a fertiliser have zero emissions? Secondly, might the Government from which thousands of families are benefiting. There consider that the 2040 date for banning the sale of new is a pressing need to scale up financing for such small, petrol and diesel cars is not bold enough? Should they local projects. Indeed, it will be essential that developing bring this forward to 2030? countries are helped at every stage to ensure that they While we must consider our investments in energy use energy far more wisely than we, as developed at home in the UK, we know that climate change is a nations, have done. We dare not suggest that they hold global phenomenon. Therefore,we must think ambitiously back from development as they seek to build better and thoughtfully about our energy investments overseas, lives for their people—but they can be helped to avoid particularly in poorer and developing nations. Indeed, the major environmental mistakes that we have made asweknow,climatechangeisdisproportionatelyimpacting on our development pathway. on the poorest and most marginalised people in the While the shift in financial investment is ultimately world. Not only our environmental responsibility but down to the banks themselves, I would argue that the our social responsibility and commitment to justice Government have a considerable role to play in call for urgent global action to ensure equitable access encouraging this. In addition to putting in place to enriching and sustainable development. frameworks for mandatory disclosure of carbon footprints 811 Green Finance [LORDS] Green Finance 812

[THE LORD BISHOP OF DURHAM] industry to develop a new set of green and sustainable and other climate-related information at both individual finance management standards. The first standard will company and portfolio level, a phasing out of fossil be produced, I think, early this year, but these standards fuel subsidies, and ensuring that the fossil fuel industry will be voluntary. Can the Minister confirm that once has a limited influence in determining the price and the standards have emerged, the Government will put mechanism when implementing carbon pricing, would their weight behind getting business and other areas to all go a long way towards making the British financial adopt them? Without a standard approach, comparison banking sector a global leader in green finance, and becomes very difficult. resilient to climate change. We must remember that part of being a global Turning to the industrial implications of this sector leader in green finance means thoughtfully using the in the UK, as the Minister knows, importantly, the global influence that we already have. So finally I ask Government’s published industrial strategy includes a the Minister: how is the UK using its influence with clean growth strategy. Clean technology must be an the World Bank and other multilateral development important element of our future industrial strategy. banks to persuade them to invest less in fossil fuels BEIS estimates that clean tech already employs about and more in renewable energy? Green finance matters 430,000 people in the UK and is growing at double-digit for the whole world. Let us not drag our feet in any rates. The very existence of the clean growth strategy way in developing it well. is itself positive and we welcome it. Clean energy entrepreneurs have long felt that they were fighting for 4.34 pm recognition. This starts that process. The Government have firmly stated that this industry is not a niche and Lord Fox (LD): My Lords, I join others in thanking that the clean economy is an important growth area my noble friend Lord Teverson for securing this debate for the UK economy. We welcome that. and for proving that he is the very model of a modern eco-warrior. I will focus on two areas: resilience to Of course, the challenge is what happens next. This climate change, and transparency; and—the Minister is a very broad sector that operates at many scales. It will not be surprised to hear—the industrial implications covers everything from a neighbourhood scheme to of this for the UK. insulate homes, to a £1 billion offshore wind farm. Starting with resilience and transparency, historically Can the Minister perhaps devote some of his time to UK pension investments were dominated by fossil explaining the way in which the Government’s industrial fuels, not least because of the position of Shell and BP strategy will vary across these different opportunities? in the FTSE. A managed retreat from that exposure to Of course, progress turns not just on government but fossil fuels is in our interests not just societally but in on access to finance, and we have heard strong terms of our pensions. Progress has been made but it interventions today from other speakers. Yet the UK’s should be noted that the value of local council pension Green Investment Bank—GIB—has been sold to fund holdings in fossil fuels has actually risen 15% to Macquarie. Before the sale, GIB demonstrated the £16 billion over the past two years. benefits of building a centre of expertise in green Planning and reporting decisions need to be made finance. My party regrets what we see as an ideological rationally. They need to be based on investment-grade sale. While there are other games in town for those analysis and backed by real data. London pension seeking finance, the Government must now further funds have been global leaders in pressing companies free things up, in particular by changing—as my noble to report their exposure to climate change, as we heard friend, I think, pointed out—the fiduciary duties of from the previous speaker. We warmly support the owners of pension funds. Bank of England and its task force on climate disclosure Place was another important, and very welcome, and reporting requirements for companies because, aspect of the industrial strategy. In that regard, the clearly, we need to do more. In that regard, does the existing clean-tech industry is more geographically Minister have any comments on my right honourable spread than many other industries: it is helping to friend Vince Cable’s suggestion regarding reporting? rebalance some of the industrial activity around the He suggested that the UK should follow France’s lead United Kingdom. Much of this industry serves local in ensuring that disclosure applies both to companies people and is inherently distributed across the country,so and the flows of finance. That would include requiring it serves the “place” part of the industrial strategy investors to explain how their policies align with UK agenda to continue to encourage it. In addition, the carbon budgets set under the Climate Change Act. As Government now plan local industrial strategies. Can your Lordships know, transparency on sustainability, the Minister say how these will incorporate the green alongside transparency in financial reporting, helps element? investors make informed decisions. This is a global trend and, as we have heard from Funding for smaller projects is still a challenge. other speakers, the UK benefits hugely from being an With the sale of GIB, we lost an organisation dedicated early adopter, helping to shape how the practice has to this sector. It was, I repeat, wrong for it to be sold. developed globally. The Government can best help Wenow need the Minister to explain how the Government this by setting standards for transparency. Can the will encourage more microfinance for the smaller, Minister reassure the House that the momentum injected more locally based projects around the country.Perhaps into transparency by the coalition Government will the Government should also commit to allowing not be lost over time? Reporting will also be assisted local authorities to borrow for green infrastructure by common standards so we are looking forward to improvements related to energy saving or other green the output of the BSI, which is working closely with elements. 813 Green Finance [18 JANUARY 2018] Green Finance 814

I turn to business investment. Many businesses The expertise shown so far includes the very interesting perhaps choose to spend capital on new plant, speech of the noble Lord, Lord Barker of Battle. I rather than fixing some of the environmental needs agreed with him so much and he indicated, quite of their sites. The Government can do more on rightly, that the Government are now committed to messaging the importance of efficiency—in the this whole matter, whereas there were signs a few years energy or environmental sense—to leverage higher ago that they were perhaps a bit slow in responding. productivity, and they can look at taxation. Will the The exception to that expertise in all the speeches so Minister undertake to speak to Treasury colleagues far is that now the quality goes down, because I am about how tax can be further used to drive green not the expert. I deliberately do not have a written text investment in our industry? today because I want to pick up some of the points Worryingly, the UK is becoming a less attractive that came through in the debate. I prefer that because destination for green investment. For example, the it becomes more of a real debate rather than just a EY—formerly Ernst & Young—index measuring series of conference speeches made on machine tools, countries’ attractiveness to energy investment saw the following one after another. UK fall from fourth place in 2013 to 10th place in I mention the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, again 2017. Can the Minister tell the House how he intends because, in addition to his expertise, there is what he to reverse this negative trend? did during his long and distinguished chairmanship of I expect that the Minister will mention the the committee on this subject. We first met when he Government’s green finance task force, as have other was Chief Whip for the Lib Dem section in the European noble Lords. We welcome it, but my understanding is Parliament. He has focused on this as one of his that it will meet three times and disband after six leading subjects and we are grateful for that. I hope months. Can the Minister confirm that and, if it is your Lordships in this debate will forgive me if I true, say what he hopes to get from such an ephemeral mention again a terrible joke—I have not used it for a gathering? long, long time. Many years ago there was a human Clean energy forms a significant part of green cannonball in a circus in Britain who was injured in an finance. Energy is complex, as the Minister knows. accident. Fortunately, it was not a serious injury but Heat, transport and power are inextricably linked. the ringmaster wrung his hands in grief and said, “It’ll Any action on one element has a reaction elsewhere. take us a long time to find another man of the same Energy is badly served by decisions taken on political calibre”. I am embarrassing the noble Lord by insisting instinct or to grab headlines. Energy investments are that there is a link from that to the quality of his long term, requiring investors to consider future policy contribution but it is true, and we thank him and the for several Parliaments to come—often more than other noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. several. We need stable policy, developed collaboratively The noble Lord, Lord Fox, was right to question across the whole industry. whether there are still areas of complacency around A clear pipeline of future work is the best environment this subject. Those areas are found in some governmental for clean investment. Businesses that see a future circles. I do not include the Minister who will reply market will invest in technology, facilities and the today; I am sure he is fully committed, psychologically skills of their people. That helps bring costs down and and in detail, to this new policy that the Government hastens the transition to a clean economy.Furthermore, are developing for the sake of this country and our it will unlock the clean finance we need. friends in the rest of the world. But there is still a To conclude, the UK led the way on resilience and problem with these matters, which I noticed was indicated reporting. It has built great expertise in investing around even today in two contrasting points in the press. I the world, as we have heard from other speakers. As refer to the quality newspapers—I include the Times this debate reveals, there is cause for positive thoughts, in that, which I hope is not incorrect and rash. but overall there can be no backsliding: it is a competitive The first article I should like to mention was on world. Most of the success outlined here today is a page 6 of the Guardian today. It referred to how much result of decisions taken five or 10 years ago. We need damage was being done, in Europe and Britain, by the to know that this Government understand today’s huge increase in the purchase and use of microwave challenges and opportunities. I call on the Minister to ovens. The figure given was that it was the equivalent convince us that he has that understanding. of 7 million cars unloading carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. The article went on to say that this trend 4.44 pm in the sales of microwave ovens has become a brand-new feature of modern life in households in the European Lord Dykes (CB): My Lords, it is a great pleasure to Union and here, as opposed to the old, traditional follow the wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Fox. He oven, which is still used in some circumstances. That it is well known to be an expert on this subject. Indeed, is now a major threat and causing serious concern in to have four Members from the Liberal Democrat those expert circles which follow these trends. group speaking on this subject today, out of a total of nine or 10 for the whole debate, is an impressive total. In contrast, however, on page 6 of the Times today It shows the expertise in that group on this subject. I there was an interesting reference to a study published deliberately thank the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for in the journal Nature, which, his excellent contribution—I hope not to embarrass “refines previous estimates of how sensitive the climate is to him by praising him too much—in opening and taking carbon dioxide by considering the historical variability in global the initiative on this debate. It is such an important temperature. It focuses on the key measure, known as equilibrium subject. climate sensitivity (ECS), which is used by climate scientists to 815 Green Finance [LORDS] Green Finance 816

[LORD DYKES] promoting these objectives? I thank the right reverend make predictions. ECS is the amount of warming that would Prelate for his very important remarks: they showed occur if the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere his remarkable expertise on this subject. We are grateful doubled”. for what the Church has been doing. We look forward The suggestion of this study—again, I quote from to the Minister’s reply—with his history of many paragraph 2 of the newspaper article—is that, portfolios over the years and his skills and abilities—to “the target set in the Paris Agreement on climate change of give us a reassuring answer in this important debate limiting the average temperature increase to well below 2C is more today. achievable than some scientists have claimed”. That is welcome news indeed, although, as someone 4.53 pm has mentioned, there is a stricter target for island Baroness Featherstone (LD): My Lords, I congratulate territories. That has, I hope, focused on reassuring my noble friend Lord Teverson on securing this debate. people that this is a serious programme between countries I usually stand here to warn that the Government are and internationally, and between allies and friends not going far enough or fast enough—they are not—to and within the European Union—of which we are deliver our emission reductions commitments from still, thank goodness, a member—and that we are now the Paris Agreement and the Climate Change Act. co-operating, following the lead in Paris. I live in However, today’s debate is really about the economic France as well, and I remember,when the green sovereign opportunities of the low-carbon economy and the French bond was launched, how excited people in low-carbon world. We have the opportunity to make France were by that first achievement. I echo the views the UK the green and sustainable investment capital of others in this debate who urged us to go down the of the world, but only if we move swiftly and take the same route. I hope the Minister will deal with that right actions. There will be, and already is, fierce subject today. competition from other countries to lead and capitalise Therefore, not all is depressing, but equally, not all on this agenda, so we need to move decidedly; we need is very reassuring in the total picture. I very much to signal to the world that we are serious, not half-hearted, agree with the noble Lord, Lord Fox, when he said not little and late, but bold and courageous if we are what a great mistake it was to sell the Green Investment going to capture this market. Bank in that way. I think we will come to regret that The potential—as we heard from many sides of the later. As far as I know, the aim is really the usual House—for green finance is huge: trillions over the fund-raising by the UK Treasury, which is, sadly, not next decade. It is easy to see how, within a few short known for its skilful management of the British economy years, every listed company on the planet will face over many decades. That is the trouble with the emphasis calls from shareholders to explain how they plan to that we keep making. Of course,debt and debt governance adjust to a decarbonising economy and escalating for all Governments in the western world and elsewhere climate risks. is a major preoccupation. I understand that. With a rising population pursuing higher levels of If you take the US figures, they are now so high and wealth on a finite planet, green and sustainable investments unsustainable, but cannot in any way be reduced should facilitate the transition to a more sustainable practically, that you end up feeling in despair when economy and avoid many of the risks associated with you think of what it is trying to do. I agree that the US transition. If we do nothing to create a sustainable is doing some things on the green investment strategy future, we stand to lose out through enormous shocks front, but it does not have enough resources. The to our economy and financial system, and then, as United States defence budget is 10 times the size of other noble Lords have said, there is Brexit. Sir Vince Russia’s. There is not much green consequence or Cable, in a recent op ed for City A.M., said: result in that defence spending in the United States and overseas. Another reason for us to work with our “The prospect of Brexit threatens to cause serious damage to the UK’s financial services industry. Paris, Frankfurt, Dublin and European partners on these matters is the EIB, which even Luxembourg are all circling like hungry jackals waiting to has been mentioned by a number of speakers. I agree pick off the weakest members of the herd. London will need to entirely that it is important for us to continue that develop a distinctive and competitive offer to investors. I believe relationship if we can. I personally think that we we can find it … in the expanding world of green finance”. should eventually reverse the decision to leave the EU I think noble Lords on all sides of the House agree. through a democratic vote, in whatever form it might The financial system is there to serve the real economy take. The whole thing is a nightmare proposition and which, in turn, is there to help society thrive. We do more and more members of the British public will not have the green, zero-carbon economy today that come to realise that. society needs, so we also do not have a green financial About six years ago, we were all avidly reading system channelling capital towards it. Both those things the book The Burning Question by two very eminent need correcting at the same time to secure progress. scientists. The message there was to keep fossil fuels in The financial system is just that: a system. It has the ground. That is a tall ask for the practical exigencies multiple actors, all of whom have different incentives of the international, commercial and economic and roles to play. Therefore, action needs to be taken community and energy companies, but it is none the across the whole system. To categorise broadly the less something that should be our target for the future. interventions that are needed, they are those that We now have the good side of things developing: wind relate to the supply of capital; the demand for capital; power, electric cars, solar panels and the rest of it. and the connective tissue between supply and demand. However, is it enough if the Government do not take Across all three categories, we have to ensure that the the lead, as elsewhere, and with our EU partners in financial system is resilient, both to huge environmental 817 Green Finance [18 JANUARY 2018] Green Finance 818 change and the economic change necessary to avert it, Then there is the connective tissue of data. Data and that we redirect capital towards activities compatible has a transformative impact on how capital is deployed. with a zero-carbon economy. The whole success of the green bonds market—tiny but growing—arguably boils down to just one difference We heard from my noble friends Lord Teverson, between a conventional bond and a green bond: data, Lady Kramer and Lord Fox on the supply of capital. specifically data about how the proceeds of the bond All those with professional responsibilities for governing will be used for green. Making that data available to institutional pots of money on behalf of others—for investors has revealed enormous demand, and since example, pension fund trustees—have fiduciary demand is so often outstripping supply, issuers of duties and must take seriously climate risk and the green bonds are now seeing material pricing benefits changing economics of things such as renewable energy. in their favour. Regulation can require this, training can support it and government-run pots of money can set the example. The TCFD, the Task Force on Climate-related Doing so will result in large sums of money seeking Financial Disclosures—it trips off the tongue, that green. Banks should be supervised using existing one—plays directly into the data agenda. Disclosure prudential regulatory powers so that we are confident must be mandatory, as we have heard from several that they are taking seriously the financial risks of speakers today, and as advised by Aviva, the insurance climate change or a failure to transition quickly enough. giant. It must be made mandatory as soon and as Doing so will result in more bank capital seeking smoothly as possible, and feed into all relevant existing green. Insurers should be empowered to be a go-to disclosure legislation. If we get that right, the expertise source of investment in zero-carbon infrastructure. we will accrue will be exportable as a service. They have to find long-term investments to match their long-term liabilities, and they have a clear vested As for green fintech: digital technologies are interest in bringing down overall levels of climate risk. transforming how financial services are delivered. If If zero-carbon infrastructure investment cannot work we think peer-to-peer platforms and payment systems for them, who can it work for? like PayPal right through to blockchain—add in machine learning and big data analysis techniques—digital As we heard from my noble friend Lady Kramer, technologies are a formidable force. For green finance, the investing public are often forgotten, yet they are they can be used to get massive amounts of data on the customers of the above institutions and the citizens green into the financial system, at scale and at low who stand to thrive or struggle in a green climate-changed cost, allowing investors to differentiate between green world. The average saver or investor is quite open to and brown in whole new ways. doing good with their money, but the system they put money into cannot answer the most basic of questions: The digital revolution can make the financial system what environmental impact is my money having? The more accessible and accountable to consumers. Green public have to be able to access this information and fintech is a nascent area, but the UK has powerful the investment advice related to it as a matter of strengths in fintech, green finance and innovation. We course. If necessary, government savings products for have such a huge opportunity to lead the world in this the public should surely kick-start the market for area, and the Government should be looking for ways simple, impactful financial products. to spur that market innovation. There is also demand for capital. As we heard from We have had an excellent debate; I want to touch on my noble friend Lord Fox, the Government have a few of the points that have been made. The speech issued their clean growth strategy, but investors remain of the “reliable eco-warrior” behind me was a tour de pretty unclear about where their capital can be put to force. He emphasised that all finance is really green best use to help deliver it. What about clean growth finance and that it is win-win for the climate and the investment plans by the Government and industry to economy. I suppose if you boiled that down you start focusing investor attention on the biggest needs? would say, “We can save the planet and make money”. There are significant, but often overlooked, regional He also reiterated the point about mandatory reporting. or local agendas here. Clean, zero-carbon infrastructure My noble friend Lady Kramer talked about the size is needed right across the UK, and very often local of the green bond market and how we need to educate authorities and councils could be playing a catalytic and pump-prime new financial instruments.She advocated role in attracting green finance from the private sector. a green sovereign bond. She said that we need to However, their knowledge and skills as to how to do educate the public that financial literacy is a must. She so are lacking, so what about building capacity to also talked of green mortgages and the verifying of the issue clean growth investment plans for particular verifiers. The right reverend Prelate reminded us of the regions or green bonds for cities and regions? Indeed, Christian commitment to the stewardship of our planet. the sovereign bond would not go amiss either. I think it is a favourite saying of the noble Lord, Lord Finance flows mostly in rational directions—mostly. Mountevans, that business is playing its part in addressing As was mentioned by the right reverend Prelate, we climate change; it is an opportunity for business to still have a raft of perverse subsidies, for instance fossil show its green credentials. My noble friend Lord Fox fuel subsidies, which make it economically sensible for talked of resilience and transparency, and said we money to flow into exactly the kind of activities that needed to set the standards of transparency.He lamented, we are trying to wean ourselves off. The debate about as do many on our side and, I am sure, others, the loss needing to see an end to renewable subsidies always of the Green Investment Bank. That is one of the misses this point, yet it is a huge distortion in the stupid things that we in this country do: develop market. something brilliant and then sell it off. 819 Green Finance [LORDS] Green Finance 820

[BARONESS FEATHERSTONE] done. I declare my interest as having a corporate I shall touch briefly on divestments, which I was finance business. Nevertheless, we are where we are, hoping would be covered by someone else. Divestment we have to move on and at least there is some enthusiasm is moving hugely in this country. When New York to do so. moves, the World Bank moves, Aviva moves, the Dutch We do this in the context not just of enthusiasm but bank ING moves, Norway’s sovereign fund and Black of the fact that there has been a downturn, and there Rock move—they all get this. There is a huge and are worrying signs of a reduction in investment, as growing reputational, financial and operational risk noted by the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord that Governments and investments are associating Fox. There are some opportunities available to the UK with fossil-fuel assets. They are going to become stranded because we have an excellent outstanding financial assets at the same time that it is becoming clear that centre. Certainly, in the shadow of Brexit, we have to the economy will become low carbon. work doubly hard to maximise any opportunities that Happily, we do not need to reinvent the wheel but we have, and during this debate we have heard many we need to ensure that we are ahead of the curve. We interesting and useful suggestions. In introducing the have the European Commission high-level expert group debate, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, made a crucial recommendations, the Prudential Regulation Authority’s point about how we in the UK remain a global leader initial report on the impacts of climate change for the in green finance. The watchword for this has to be how UK’s insurance sector, the UNEP inquiry into the we ensure leadership. design of a sustainable financial system, the Environmental Audit Committee inquiry into green finance and the I want to talk about green finance in a slightly conclusions of the financial stability task force on wider context. Many of the contributions have strayed climate-related financial disclosures, and in March we into broader areas—the noble Baroness, Lady will have the recommendations of the Government’s Featherstone, made an excellent and quite wide-ranging green finance task force. So we are not lacking in speech on a number of areas. However, this is not just advice, but what we need is strong action. I am looking about a market opportunity. There is an unprecedented forward to hearing from the Minister. I hope he is availability and uptake of solutions, particularly on going to say that the Government will act with urgency, treatment and on renewable energy generation and clarity and boldness. If we want this market, there storage. In many ways you could identify that as the really is no time to lose. largest business opportunity in the world at this time, but it is also a market requirement. Sustainable capitalism, 5.05 pm long-term capitalism, inclusive capitalism—however you wish to describe it, it is now a much more important Lord Mendelsohn (Lab): My Lords, I thank the requirement for the world at large. This is about noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for securing the debate. It promoting an economic system within which business has been useful and constructive, and I look forward and capital seek to maximise long-term value creation, to hearing the Minister respond in kind to some very and about accounting for material, environmental, useful suggestions. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, social and governance issues. Integral to this framework Lord Teverson, who has done an outstanding job in is the consideration of all costs and benefits regardless these areas. I thank him for the unpaid role that he of whether they are currently attributed with an economic plays as a trustee of the Green Purposes Company, cost by society. and I thank all his colleagues for the work they do. It is a very important role and we are very grateful to them. This sort of sustainable investing is an investment Like others, I noticed that the noble Lord bristles philosophy and approach that allocates capital to when he is described as a reliable eco-warrior. I certainly companies aligned with these principles, and uses analysis think that he is very reliable and, having worked with and metrics to do it. Indeed, it seeks a competitive him on the Green Investment Bank, I think he is also market rate return. It does not compromise financial exceptionally constructive, as was his tone in his returns for sustainable outcomes, or the reverse. It remarkable tour d’horizon. He raised an important applies to the entire investment value chain. This is the issue that I shall just pick up: the risks involved for the way the world is moving—for very good reasons. That insurance industry in the grand challenge of climate reflects not just the requirements of green areas but of change. No one should underestimate how significant all society’s impacts; it also reflects confidence in the they are. There has indeed been a fourfold increase but private sector itself. the velocity of that increase is changing rapidly and There are many advantages to take, and we have we have to be very conscious of that. many goals in policy terms. That is not just about the I was very moved by the enthusiasm of the noble transition to a low-carbon economy, or about more Lord, Lord Barker, particularly his phrase that the business models leveraging technology that improves Government have regained their mojo; that is an important asset utilisation, thus conserving resources and other point to make and it is certainly true. We welcome the things.It is not just about the maturing field of sustainable green finance task force, the City of London green finance, but also about a shift in behaviours and finance leadership group and many other important attitudes towards sustainability between generations, initiatives that are now starting to take place. Like with more enthusiasm and commitment towards such many others, I regret what happened to the Green issues from the millennial generation and the centennials. Investment Bank. All that did was to take £1.6 billion Indeed, we face the challenge behind that often-quoted off the Government’s debt figure. That was an overriding phrase, that the future belongs to those who give the requirement of the transaction but it yielded only next generation reasons for hope—and we have to £120 million. That was not the deal that I would have do that. 821 Green Finance [18 JANUARY 2018] Green Finance 822

This all bleeds into issues around corporate governance, to assets in the UK. But there is an issue about how because asset owners, managers and companies need some of our rivals are dealing with these opportunities. to adopt a more holistic definition of fiduciary duty—one This is an important challenge for the City of London, that incorporates sustainability and shapes investment and the noble Lord who has had such a distinguished frameworks as a result. We also need to encourage career in the City made a very useful contribution. wider consumer behaviours and consciousness of these Earlier this month, Fromageries Bel, the French issues, even to the point of considering how our pension multinational cheesemaker perhaps best known for plan might incorporate sustainability as a key the brand Mini Babybel, extended a credit agreement consideration, and how we can become more aware of with a group of banks, comprising a ¤520 million all the consequences of our purchasing decisions.Investors, revolving credit facility made up of a consortium of businesses and consumers alike are now equipped banks, including Société Générale, BNP Paribas, with the economic case for action, and the information Crédit Agricole, Commerce Bank, KBC Bank and a on which to take that action. few others. It is interesting that this renewed credit The Paris Agreement provides a key opportunity, agreement includes environmental and social impact which has led to many calculations of the overall criteria linked to the company’s sustainable development requirements globally. The International Finance strategy. It is a pioneering credit facility tying a credit Corporation has suggested that $23 trillion of global line to environmental and social performance. These investment will be needed between 2016 and 2030, and sorts of challenges have been taken up round the I think that our Government have identified $13.5 trillion world and to maintain our leadership position we have in investment in energy alone. We must energise all to do more. forms of economic activity and finance. We are starting to promote electric vehicles. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham talked I shall focus on one or two particular aspects, to try about sales of petrol and diesel vehicles ending by to illustrate some of the challenges. It is important to 2040. Wehave a massive issue with millions of lithium-ion establish global standards. This is not something that batteries that will need to be recycled or reused each affects the UK alone. The lack of agreed global standards year, as required by existing law. Indeed, we have no for what qualifies as a green project is fraught with such facility in the UK and we have to think about many problems. For example, let me illustrate one of what our requirements will be over time. Perhaps in the challenges in the nascent area of green bonds—the this area we can show that we have moved on and crucial point at which climate issues directly meet the adopt a more collaborative approach to the way in financial markets. which the market might be encouraged or supported Green bonds are a fixed-income instrument used to to meet that challenge within the context of the industrial further the green agenda. This asset class has grown strategy or other initiatives. The Government take the dramatically, and there was more than £100 billion of view that this issue will be for the market to determine. issuance last year, compared with a minuscule amount The consensus in the Chamber for more progress, and only a few years ago. The momentum is extraordinary— more co-operation to achieve it, was adequately reflected yet there is no binding definition of “green”. There is in the debate. I hope that the Minister will respond in no legal perspective in the European economies as to kind. what constitutes such a bond. There has been a vacuum, filled by some principles from NGOs and industry 5.16 pm groups such as the International Capital Market Association, which has a list of acceptable use of TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department proceeds. But there is a glaring lack of an acceptable for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) legal definition. This is not the case globally—China (Con): My Lords, I will leave lithium batteries and the has a legal definition—but we need much more recycling thereof for another day. I hope that the noble co-operation to create our own in Europe, and a more Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, will be prepared to accept a accepted global standard. letter on that slightly more detailed subject than the broader themes with which we have engaged in this What can the Government do to maintain leadership? debate. We are seeing from around the world what can be I join other noble Lords in congratulating the noble done to support growth in green finance. The European Lord, Lord Teverson, on securing this debate and Commission has this month indicated support for introducing it. I join my sometime noble friend, the regulatory incentives that would encourage banks to noble Lord, Lord Dykes—I suppose that is how I shift their balance sheets in a green direction, by should address him—in congratulating his sometime allowing them to take on more leverage against assets noble friends on the Liberal Benches on the extraordinary with a positive environmental impact. France last year contributions of the colleagues of the noble Lord, became the largest sovereign issuer of green bonds, Lord Teverson—the former colleagues of the noble raising ¤7 billion to fund energy transition. There are Lord, Lord Dykes—in producing four speakers in this other illustrations as well. debate. As my noble friend Lord Barker implied, we We must not miss this opportunity, because the achieved much during the coalition years. I particularly appetite is clearly there. In September a ¤600-million remember undertaking with my noble friend a great bond sold by SSE became the largest bond with a deal of work on anaerobic digestion, the energy that green label attached so far issued by a UK company, can come from that and the successful removal of with the funds being used to finance onshore wind waste from the waste stream as a result. It is a minor farms. As has been stated before, Barclays sold the point but it was very important in terms of recycling first green bond from a UK financial institution linked and green energy. The coalition achieved much and I 823 Green Finance [LORDS] Green Finance 824

[LORD HENLEY] The United Kingdom is widely recognised as a hope that in what I will say I can convince noble Lords global financial powerhouse. In the Global Financial who were formerly noble friends—I refer particularly Centres Index, London has been rated as the top to the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, with whom financial centre in the world since 2015. It might be I served on the coalition—that we will continue to that the Leader of the Liberal Democrat Party does achieve those results, no doubt with them prodding us not think that the City should have quite such dominant along, as we continue not with a coalition Government power, but most of us welcome it and are grateful that but with a Conservative one. it is so successful and provides so many jobs and funds for the Exchequer to pay for the services that the I welcome all the contributions we have had on this Government need to provide. It is only natural that the important agenda. I congratulate noble Lords on the United Kingdom is well placed to build on our global Liberal Democrat Benches on their recent report on a leadership in green finance, which is what we want to clean, green and carbon-free Britain. The noble Lord, do. It is an important part of the United Kingdom’s Lord Teverson, and, I think, other noble Lords referred leadership in tackling climate change. I assure the to the recent City of London report and the FSB’s right reverend Prelate and others that we want to show report. I give an assurance that we will look very leadership in tackling climate change, because green carefully at those. finance matters to both the financial and climate change agendas, domestically and internationally. I Only a week ago, the noble Lords, Lord Mountevans, assure noble Lords that government work on green Lord Mendelsohn and others, debated our industrial finance does not take place solely within the Department strategy, which sets out how the United Kingdom will for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, which I build on its strengths and maintain its global leadership have the honour to represent here. in a fast-changing world. The industrial strategy recognises clean growth as a great opportunity that we must On the international stage, the Bank of England is pursue. As the noble Lord, Lord Fox, will remember, co-chairing the G20 sustainable finance study group we set out our clean growth strategy earlier than the with China, and government as a whole has established industrial strategy, but the industrial strategy made it formal green finance partnerships with Brazil and clear that, of the four “grand challenges”, clean growth China. Domestically, BEIS and the Treasury both was one of the main ones. It is a challenge facing us work in close collaboration on green finance, and at and all the major economies in the world—and the official level the work has received support from minor economies, for that matter. 11 different departments so far. We have also seen significant leadership on green Our clean growth strategy demonstrates that it is finance from the private sector. Barclays recently listed entirely possible to grow our economy while cutting a ¤500 million green bond and HSBC committed to emissions.Indeed,in2016theUnitedKingdom’semissions provide $100 billion of financing and investment to were 42% lower than in 1990, while GDP increased by develop low-carbon technologies and projects. The 67% over the same period. To all those Jeremiahs who London Stock Exchange has attracted more than 60 green say that you cannot have a reduction in emissions and bond listings, raising over $20 billion in seven different GDP growth in the same period, the figures for this currencies. We want to do all we can to encourage the country show that that is not the case. Furthermore, profitability of green finance. I reassure the right PwC recently published a report that showed that the reverend Prelate that we want London to be the leader United Kingdom’s average annual reduction in carbon of that. Indeed, as that famous Londoner, the great intensity over the past 16 years has been greater than lexicographer Dr Johnson, so eloquently put it many that of any other G20 nation. years ago: “There are few ways in which a man can be more innocently That global transition towards green growth cannot employed than in getting money”. happen without our financial sector, which is the main subject of the debate today. The pursuit of cleaner We want the City to continue to do that in green growth implies a great change in the way we invest, finance as well. from households to large institutions. All investments As such, BEIS and the Treasury have jointly established and purchases are relevant. In the last 10 years, for an industry-led United Kingdom green finance task example, we have seen global green bond issuance force. That was welcomed by the noble Lord, Lord grow from zero to reach more than £100 billion last Teverson, and I am grateful for that. I am also grateful year. I believe that we are already a global leader in to my noble friend Lord Barker, who, also describing green finance, and the Government entirely agree with himself as an optimist, welcomed that task force, the strong case for the United Kingdom to remain so which will develop long-term, ambitious policies in and for our whole economy to be resilient to climate close collaboration with the private sector. The task change, which is the second of the noble Lord’s debate force brings together senior leaders from across the Motion. If I can frame it as two questions, the first is financial sector, including representatives from big the need to remain a global leader and the second is banks such as HSBC, Barclays, Aviva, the London the need to ensure the resilience of the economy to Stock Exchange and the Bank of England. It has climate change. Our industrial strategy and our clean already consulted over 100 stakeholders and will publish growth strategy set out the ambitious first steps that its final report in the spring, providing green finance we have taken to ensure not only that the United recommendations for the Government to consider. Kingdom captures this opportunity but that we will On Tuesday, three of those UK green finance task remain the leading standard-setter in the sector as it force members gave evidence to the Environmental develops. Audit Committee. I have not yet seen the detailed 825 Green Finance [18 JANUARY 2018] Green Finance 826 transcript but I look forward to it, as I imagine do committed to maintain the Green Investment Group’s other noble Lords. However, I understand that the green values as part of its successful bid and a successful task force was discussed, among other issues, and that share has been established to safeguard the Green those members were supportive of our green finance Investment Group’s green purposes. work. I very much hope that the noble Lord, Lord The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, referred to his role Teverson, who referred to the recent news of the sharp as one of the independent trustees. We are very grateful drop in investment in renewable infrastructure in the for the work he has taken on and I am sure he will Bloomberg report, will accept that our support for perform it with extraordinary diligence. I, like the clean energy has led to dramatic falls in the costs of noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, regret that he is unpaid renewable technologies—which, again, my noble friend for that but I do not think it will affect his excellent Lord Barker referred to—and will accept that the UK work in any way and the key role that he has played in green finance task force will look at ways in which the the development of that special share, particularly Government can facilitate investment in further low- now that he is one of the independent trustees. carbon deals. The GIG continues to demonstrate leadership in That brings me to just one or two of the questions the green sector. For example, it recently launched a at this stage which were raised. The noble Lord, Lord ground-breaking pay-as-you-save energy efficiency service Teverson, was looking for more retail products; again, with no up-front costs for medium and large energy we would like the green finance task force to look at consumers in the United Kingdom. It is taking a this issue and at lending for both households and proactive role in the green finance task force and has businesses. We hope to see the sector itself develop already made a number of significant green investments. new products—green bonds, for example—in the near future. But again, we are looking for advice on that. I did not think I would get through the debate The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked what the without Brexit coming through. My noble friend Government would be doing on green mortgages. In Lady Featherstone questioned what might happen our green growth strategy we committed to working with Brexit and sought assurance on the implications. with mortgage lenders to develop more products in As we proceed to the exit, the Government will continue that field. We published a call for evidence alongside to utilise our entire global network to promote the UK the green growth strategy, seeking views on proposals as a destination to invest in, and as we move to the for supporting more products of that sort, particularly second phase of negotiations we will certainly explore green mortgages. That can be looked at by the task our future relationship with EU bodies such as the force. European Investment Bank. At the Autumn Budget, the Government also set up a new dedicated subsidiary The noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord of the British Business Bank to become a leading Mountevans, referred to Fifteen Steps to Green Finance UK-based investor in patient capital across the UK. published by the Green Finance Initiative in association That new subsidiary will be capitalised with £2.5 billion, with E3G. Did the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, say which further complements the Government’s recent he was at the launch or perhaps it was at the creation announcement of investing £2.5 billion in low-carbon of the Green Finance Initiative? He will correct me, no innovation from 2015 to 2021. doubt, in due course if I have got that wrong. Both work as part of the green finance task force. We will In the last minute or two that I have, I will briefly certainly want to work closely with them. touch on the resilience of the financial sector to climate change. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, rightly noted The noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, and the noble the importance—as well as building on the UK’s Baroness, Lady Kramer, mentioned the sovereign green global leadership in green finance—of ensuring that bond. We support the United Kingdom issuance of the UK financial sector is resilient. The Government green bonds and the London Stock Exchange listing already work with the insurance industry on physical of those 60 or so green bonds to date, but for the risk, as mentioned by many noble Lords. My noble Government to go down that route we would really friend Lord Barker referred to the excellent work done have to show that they were cost-effective to the taxpayer. by my right honourable friend Michael Gove at Defra However, nothing is ruled out and it is something that through its Flood Re scheme, which works with insurers can be looked at in the future. to help provide householders at the highest flood risk I move on now to the sale of the Green Investment with affordable insurance. We are particularly interested Bank, which the noble Lords, Lord Fox and Lord in that, given recent disasters in the north-west. We Dykes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Featherstone, continue to demonstrate this global leadership through very much regretted. We want to help the private DfID’s recent establishment of the Centre for Global sector build on its strengths and drive the development Disaster Protection. of the green finance sector. The core objective of the In the time available to me, I will not be able to give Green Investment Bank was to mobilise greater private this part of the noble Lord’s debate the coverage it sector green investment. It was a profitable sale—even deserves. I hope that he and others are happy for me to the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, admitted it was write to them in greater detail, particularly on some of profitable but not as profitable as if he had sold it the recommendations we have received from the Task himself—and demonstrated the bank’s success in acting Force on Climate-related Financial Disclosures—very as a commercial entity and the case for green investment. important recommendations indeed that need to be Under public ownership the Green Investment Group dealt with. Since I have now used up my 20 minutes, I leveraged some £2.50 of third-party investment for very much hope that the noble Lord will accept a letter every £1 it invested. Macquarie, the purchaser, has on that. 827 Green Finance [LORDS] Green Finance 828

[LORD HENLEY] Government of whatever colour should be able to Weshare the desire of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, deliver. My noble friend Lady Kramer drilled down and his party that the United Kingdom offers its and offered challenges. The right reverend Prelate leadership in this area. Through our clean growth spoke about social responsibility and particularly the strategy and our industrial strategy, we have put in role of DfID, which I did not mention but is incredibly place the tools to enable us to do so. We will continue important. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, talked about to work collaboratively within government across all transparency. I do not know what I can say to the departments and all parties, and we welcome the noble Lord, Lord Dykes. I think that microwaves are occasional prod from our former colleagues in coalition pretty efficient. Unfortunately the real enemies are on this issue. We also hope for further prods from the probably people like me who are Aga owners—I think private sector and others to ensure that we effectively we are the real enemies of megawatt hours when it build on the UK’s strengths in green finance. comes to preparing food. I also thank the Front-Bench spokespeople, particularly my noble friend Lady 5.37 pm Featherstone, and of course the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, for his usual insights. Of course, they Lord Teverson: My Lords, I thank the Minister for have to be here, given the weighty positions they hold his response. It is last business on Thursday so I will as Front-Bench spokespeople. obviously need to be brief. To put this beyond doubt, I I say again to the Minister and to the Government: should say that I and my fellow eco-warriors feel it catch this wave. There is that opportunity: it is a sweet entirely appropriate that we are not remunerated as moment, so let us get on and do it. I have one trustees of the Green Purposes Company. disappointment, but I recognise that the noble Lord is I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Barker, for his not a Treasury Minister. The one thing we could and work over many years on distributed energy and the should do to lay down a marker as a nation—as the work he did in the coalition. The Minister is right: we City—is to have a green sovereign bond. If we do not, worked very well together in this whole subject area as we are saying we are out of this important market, so I part of the coalition. The enemy was the Treasury, but ask the noble Lord to take that back and discuss it I suspect that that is government, whether in coalition further with his Treasury colleagues. or not. I thank all your Lordships for your contributions. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Mountevans, on having achieved this Green Finance Initiative and Motion agreed. the report Fifteen Steps to Green Finance. It is eminently readable and sensible and is a superb agenda that a House adjourned at 5.41 pm. GC 1 Education: Modern Foreign Languages[18 JANUARY 2018] Education: Modern Foreign Languages GC 2

Grand Committee The decline at A-level has the obvious knock-on effect for applications for MFL degrees at university, which Thursday 18 January 2018 have dropped by 57% in 10 years. Over 50 universities have scrapped some or all of their MFL degree courses. Uncertainty over the UK’s continued participation in Education: Modern Foreign Languages the Erasmus+ programme is one reason for the drop Question for Short Debate in applications. I cannot emphasise strongly enough how important this scheme is for giving students of all 1 pm disciplines, not just the linguists, the opportunity to Asked by Baroness Coussins improve language skills and develop an international and cross-cultural mindset. A study in the US and British Toask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Academy research show that that employers rate these they have made of the importance of modern foreign skills at least as highly,or even more highly,than expertise language teaching in schools and universities, and in STEM subjects. Graduates who have spent a year of the impact of the United Kingdom’s withdrawal abroad are 23% less likely to be unemployed than from the European Union on the sustainability of those who have not. Will the Minister give an assurance that teaching. that after Brexit the UK, along with Norway and Switzerland, will continue to be part of Erasmus+ Baroness Coussins (CB): My Lords, I start by declaring beyond 2020, especially as the European Commission my interests as co-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary plans to double participation in this scheme by 2025? Group on Modern Languages, which is supported by Erasmus+ is also a vital part of the supply chain for the British Council, and vice-president of the Chartered MFL teachers. The existing shortage risks becoming Institute of Linguists. I thank all noble Lords in advance much worse because an estimated 35% of MFL teachers for their contributions and look forward to the Minister’s and lecturers are non-UK EU nationals, as are 85% of reply. I am also grateful to the House of Lords Library language classroom assistants.Unless they are guaranteed for its excellent briefing pack. residency status post Brexit, MFL teaching in our Her Majesty’s Government have a great track record schools could collapse. We are not producing enough of saying positive things about learning foreign languages languages graduates ourselves to meet the shortage, and of taking important initiatives to back up their which the Department for Education estimated at fine words. As recently as last November, Schools 3,500 if the Government are to meet their EBacc Minister Nick Gibb said that the Government were target. We know that EBacc figures would shoot up if committed to, only more pupils were doing a language at GCSE, so it “remaining open to the world after we leave the EU and to is very much in the Government’s own interests to becoming even more global and internationalist in our outlook. protect and improve the supply of MFL teachers. Can Improving the take-up and teaching of modern foreign languages the Minister say whether the Government have any in our schools … is an important part of achieving that goal”. firm data on the numbers of current MFL teachers He added that there were, from the EU? What proportion of applicants for “business, cultural and educational benefits to learning a language”.— initial teacher training in MFL and what percentage [Official Report, Commons, 30/11/17; cols. 579-80.] of MFL teachers leaving the profession are EU citizens? I would only add diplomacy, defence and security to We have heard an awful lot recently about the dramatic the Minister’s list of benefits. reduction in the number of nurses coming from the EU to work in the NHS; it would be sensible to have Important initiatives taken include making a foreign equivalent data on MFL teachers to help shape the language part of the national curriculum for key stage 2; kind of training and recruitment programmes we might the EBacc has boosted take-up of language GCSEs; need to plug the gaps. over 100 language teacher trainer scholarships have been awarded; and £10 million of government money Can the Minister comment on the conflict between has been invested in the Mandarin Excellence Programme. the EBacc and the Progress 8 system for measuring But—and I am sure noble Lords could all hear that schools’ performance at GCSE? Languages are not but coming—despite all this, language teaching and compulsory under Progress 8 and there have been learning in our schools and universities are in deep reports that some schools are using Progress 8 to avoid crisis. In 2004, languages became optional after the doing languages at all. That undermines the EBacc. age of 14, reducing GCSE take-up from nearly 80% to Can the Minister say what specific action the Government half that. A compulsory language as part of the can take to address this? I would also like to know how EBacc managed to get that back to 49%, but that may the Government intend to respond to evidence, most now be in reverse as entries fell in 2017 by 7.3%, and recently from the latest Language Trends Survey, that EBacc has had little, if any, impact on continued pupils in state schools—especially those in deprived take-up post-16. Numbers taking French A-level have areas, and including primary schools—are benefiting declined by one-third and for German by one-half. least from the advantages of learning a foreign language. Just in case any noble Lords should think that that is Lower take-up at GCSE correlates with regions of not such a bad thing these days, when we need Mandarin poor productivity and low skill levels. For example, in more than we need French, I draw attention to the the north-east in 2016, only 43% of pupils sat a GCSE recent report from the British Council, which said that in a language, compared with 75% in some London the top five languages needed by the UK for our boroughs. Only one-third of state schools employ a prosperity and influence post Brexit are Spanish, language assistant, compared with 73% of independent Mandarin, French, Arabic and German. schools. Only 30% of state schools still run exchange GC 3 Education: Modern Foreign Languages[LORDS] Education: Modern Foreign Languages GC 4

[BARONESS COUSSINS] because of my particular interest in Latin America, trips with a host family; 77% of independent schools I emphasise the importance of Spanish and Portuguese do so. There is a correlation between pupils on free in this context—but also to sustain the tourist industry school meals and low MFL take-up, and pupils in on which I foresee the United Kingdom becoming deprived areas are increasingly allowed to drop their more and more dependent. I hope therefore that my language after only two years in secondary school, or noble friend the Minister will be able to reassure us even withdrawn from language classes altogether. How that his department has taken on board the checklist does any of this help the social mobility that the created by the APPG on Modern Languages, chaired Government say they are committed to? by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and of which I I believe we need a cross-government national languages am a member, and that it will be pursued. recovery programme, because the crisis is not just for In the short time available I wish to raise two the DfE to sort out. Many departments have a critical specific issues. The first is one I have raised before as a stake in making good our languages deficit as a nation: suggestion to encourage young people to acknowledge Justice, Health, Foreign Affairs, Defence, Media, the benefit of studying foreign languages. It is not only International Development and, of course, Trade and to use them directly as teachers, interpreters and Industry. We need more home-grown linguists and to translators, but as an additional asset to other professional rely less on importing our language skills. This challenge qualifications. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers predated the EU referendum, of course, but the reality and many other professionals can add to the value of of Brexit, with the Government’s ambition for the UK their work if they speak another language or languages to be a leader in global free trade and more influential reasonably fluently. As a lawyer, I am an example of on the world stage, makes it all the more urgent. As I that. I believe that the Government could give a lead said last week in the debate on the industrial strategy, on this by ensuring that application forms for Civil speaking only English in the 21st century is as much a Service jobs in all departments include a box asking disadvantage as speaking no English. Language skills which other languages the applicant can speak. This are a key enabler of success and need to be woven into would at least enable people to realise that the ability all ages and stages of education and training, including to speak another language is a plus factor. Can the apprenticeships and technical education. Minister indicate whether this happens across the board, Finally, will the Minister undertake to initiate or indeed in any department other than the Foreign Office? discussions across government to kick-start a new The second issue relates to what I consider to be a strategic plan to rebuild the UK’s language skills? Will hidden treasure in the United Kingdom. It is a fact he support the proposal to designate a Minister with that millions of British citizens living here speak, for cross-government responsibility for languages, to ensure example, Gujarati, Hindi, Bengali, Farsi or Arabic as that, this time, decisive leadership achieves a step their first language. In any assessment of modern change in language learning in schools, FE and HE? foreign language teaching, do the Government take The education sector could learn a lot from looking this into account and in what ways are they building at the positive initiatives already being taken by the on that resource? Foreign Office and the Army, for example. The I would like to have pursued other aspects which Government could do a huge amount by selling the were raised in the excellent briefing and in the noble case for languages to students, parents, head teachers Baroness’s introduction, in particular emphasising the and employers alike. By no means does everyone need importance of the Erasmus programme, but I feel sure to be a specialist linguist, but the soft power advantage that many of these issues will be raised during the debate. in the 21st century belongs to the multilingual citizen and nation, not the monolingual Brits of the past who 1.13 pm thought that all they had to do to be understood was shout more loudly in English. Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab): My Lords, I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for introducing the debate and for her ongoing commitment 1.10 pm over many years to this subject. I think that we are Baroness Hooper (Con): My Lords, we should all be making progress, but there is still a lot more to do. I grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for accept absolutely the premise of the debate, which is introducing the debate and giving us an opportunity that whatever happens to our relationship with the to consider this issue. At a time when there has never European Union, we are going to need more mastery been more need to communicate internationally and of languages, not less. globally, I was appalled to learn that entries for GCSE It is now almost two decades since the Government modern foreign languages have almost halved and of whom I was a member transferred the power to that 50 modern foreign language departments across decide whether key stage 4 students should learn a higher education have closed in the past 15 years. The modern foreign language from central government to noble Baroness has given us more detailed statistics on head teachers. To be honest, I did not think that that. It was always a problem to recruit sufficient Brits 16 years later we would still be in this position, and to work in the European Union institutions because of that is what I want to address today. The vision we had the lack of adequate language skills. For this reason, when making that change was not to be where we are in recent years we have fallen well below our quotas in now. It has often been seen to be a battle whether those institutions. modern foreign languages should be made compulsory Now more than ever we need foreign language skills, right through school. A lot of time and energy has not only for the important and wide-ranging trade been wasted on that which might have been better negotiations that lie ahead in the post-Brexit world— used to address other issues. The evidence for that is GC 5 Education: Modern Foreign Languages[18 JANUARY 2018] Education: Modern Foreign Languages GC 6 twofold. The EBaccs arrived. Given the consequences led to an inevitable 57% drop in undergraduate numbers of not getting EBaccs for the school, it was almost and—this is the most frightening figure—an average compulsory to have modern foreign languages. Fewer of three modern foreign language departments closing than 50 per cent of students have actually taken a each year. Over 16,000 UK students are involved in language. Even though we have got almost compulsory the Erasmus programme. I hope the new Universities modern foreign languages in key stage 4, the drop-off Minister in the other place will be more enthusiastic at A-level is quite significant. If you look at other about sustaining our participation than his predecessor, difficult and challenging linear subjects, such as maths, Jo Johnson. physics, the science subjects and computing, we have The decline in the number of students taking A-levels not seen that. We have seen either a steadying of has reached a dangerous level. But let us be positive. A-level entrances, or a slight increase over recent Primary schools are now teaching modern foreign years. I have come to the conclusion that solving this is languages. Teachers are, in many schools, reporting not a battle about whether it is compulsory, it is about great successes. But if we are to really make that work, what we are doing in the classroom and how we are it has to start at the age of five. It also has to link in teaching modern foreign languages. One thing in the with secondary schools. What happens is that you get briefing that quite saddened me was that secondary children from primary schools up to a proficient level school students sawthe need for modern foreign languages in, say,French or Spanish. They transfer to the secondary but chose not to study them because they did not like school and the secondary school does a different subject. the lessons. They were not enjoying them. That is not a All that work in developing the subject does not get criticism of the brilliant teachers who try to do their realised. I do not have an easy answer, but I do know best in difficult circumstances. that is one of the major problems. The other problem My points to the Minister are that I absolutely still in primary schools is, as the noble Baroness, Lady believe that the emphasis should still be on primary Morris, said, the need to have more graduate teachers level. When you look at primary level, the lack of who have a modern foreign language as their degree. consistency guarantees that secondary level does not As we have heard previously, that is becoming less and stand a chance of getting it right. In every other less likely, because departments are closing down. national curriculum subject, they link with primary. There needs to be a training programme for those They know what they are building on. They know teachers and also for teaching assistants. Many primary what the next stage is. I really like the idea of a schools use teaching assistants to do conversational language recovery programme. That is because it implies work with groups of children. Whatever happens in we are going to do something different, that we have any dreadful Brexit process, it is important that for the got the determination but we are not looking back—we future prosperity of the country, we get this right. are learning from what is taking place. My final comments would be: concentrate on primary 1.20 pm level. I would make it compulsory for primary. I would Lord Dykes (CB): My Lords, I am grateful for what not make it an entitlement. There is a big difference has been said in the previous four speeches, particularly between the two. I would concentrate on pedagogy. by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. I am a fellow What did we learn from the Mandarin experiment officer of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Modern where it is eight hours a week rather than 30 minutes a Languages. We are very proud of the noble Baroness week? Is that a better way of teaching modern foreign because of her leadership and all the unstinting work languages? As ever, we should invest in the professional that she has done with the British Council to promote development of those who are working with our key this issue. It is very easy and tempting still for foolish stage 1 and key stage 2 children. people in Britain to regard it as a marginal subject of no consequence whatever; it is extremely important. Even if we want the subject just for cultural and intellectual reasons, there is also the reality that we 1.16 pm lose business at the margin all over the world because Lord Storey (LD): My Lords, I also thank the noble we do not bother to have proper language teaching Baroness, Lady Coussins, for initiating this debate. and learning in our schools and universities, and in My mother was German. She met my father at the end business. of the Second World War. He was in the Royal Scots That is unlike in other countries. I admire the supreme Fusiliers. My mother came from a large family with modesty and efficiency of the German population, sisters and brothers who settled all over Europe. I have most of whom speak better English than we do when cousins in Switzerland, Holland and Austria. My cousins we go over there. When I try to insist that I do a speech and their children all speak immaculate English. Why? in German—because I speak German myself—they Because it is compulsory at school. They start learning always say, “Oh, no, do it in English because we can a language at the age of five. That spreads all the way follow it easily”. It is a remarkable achievement in a through. We can be quite negative about the facts and country like that, of 82 million people, that they have figures. Let us remind ourselves of those, because they been so caring about this subject. need to be reiterated quite often. GCSE entries have I personally am lucky because—like the noble Baroness, almost halved since 1997. Fewer than half students Lady Coussins, and others, I think—I always found entered for maths take a modern foreign language. languages extremely easy. Therefore, I mastered at a The noble Baroness, Lady Hooper, made the point very early age the main European languages plus that those doing sciences or professional degrees are Russian and did not find them difficult for some less likely to do a modern foreign language. This has bizarre, rather nerdy reason; I found them very easy GC 7 Education: Modern Foreign Languages[LORDS] Education: Modern Foreign Languages GC 8

[LORD DYKES] us in, across spoken languages. We are all linguistic and exciting. I started quite late, being six, seven or creatures, so we can aim high. We do not have to think eight before I started reading some French. Even this is just about a few people patching the thing up as infants, if they get the access through their parents, we try and struggle against collapse. can start learning languages as if they are games, I will give a little example of why it is so important, puzzles, contests and competitions. They really enjoy again from my own discipline. In medieval times, a that. It is one reason why children in Britain are word in the Bible was translated as “do penance”, learning Mandarin with incredible proficiency at a meaning in relation to an institution. The Reformation very young age. Spanish is a very easy language. As we discovered the word actually means not “do penance” know, it is completely phonetic, except where it is but “repent”, which is a state of the heart. That is a indicated with an appropriate symbol. It is therefore totally different understanding of the language, from easier for those languages to be grasped at an early age. an institutional frame to the individual having values However, they are all important. Those mentioned and aspirations. That is why it is important to get by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, show the priorities language right and to understand it. but also the need not to neglect other languages—I am We need a strategic policy to put languages at the glad that she and others in this debate have mentioned heart of our learning. I support everything that has the Indian subcontinent as well. It is interesting to see been said about primary schools. I have a granddaughter how the Chinese have dealt with learning English. It is called Lila, who at nursery school, at the age of three now a huge learning system in China, a country that or four, was learning Spanish and was so excited about need not have bothered because it was very committed it. She could say the words. There is something in all to its own activities. human beings that can be developed for language, and It is important for business to take these things up we have to press on and do that. inside companies and with the trade unions. It has I hope the Minister will be able to reassure us that always been difficult to persuade people when they there could be a strategy that puts language at the say, “Oh, well, it is not my subject. I’m concerned with heart of learning, both to grow human beings more the job and the work we do”. But languages is not just fully and to equip us to take our part in an international at the margin; it is intrinsic to the very salvation of this world of business, politics and values. Without that, country. Bad effects are coming along from this Brexit we will be very impoverished. nightmare—and it is not just a debate about interesting possibilities and options; it is a total nightmare for this 1.26 pm country. Therefore, one of the best things to do is to Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con): My Lords, first stay in the EU and encourage a language learning I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, who is tireless on programme with it as well as with others. this subject. I also want to follow her in giving credit to the Government for what has already been achieved. 1.23 pm But as all noble Lords have said, there are huge The Lord Bishop of Derby: My Lords, I, too, thank challenges still to overcome. the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. I want to say I have one big point to make here, following what something about the general importance of the subject, the right reverend Prelate said. Why does this matter? and then some specific things about business and First, the idea that English is the international language primary. The noble Baroness has set out a lot of the is a massive exaggeration. There are billions of people data, which is the foundation. who do not speak English. It is actually shocking InmytraditionthereisamythcalledtheTowerof Babel, arrogance to say that everyone else should learn our whichmanyof yourLordshipwillknow,whichpointsto language because we cannot be bothered to learn therealityof thehumanconditionbeingthatweliveina theirs. But above all, speaking a foreign language does massive number of language groups. That is either a much more than give you the linguistic ability. It opens challengeforconflictoranopportunityforco-operation. your mind to other cultures and opens a door to other Thekeyisforlanguagethereforetobeusedcreatively. mindsets and to understanding how other people live The late Helmut Schmidt, the former Chancellor of and think and act. It is this which lubricates international West Germany, wrote that nobody should go into trade and international relations. politics unless they can speak at least two languages—so This is absolutely vital in today’s world, with rapid they would have to join the noble Baroness’s group. globalisation in trade, finance and investment, with That is important because he meant that we need to growing nationalism, with the emergence of great understand not just our own culture but how other economies in China, the Indian subcontinent, Latin people think through their language, so that they can America and Africa, and of course with Brexit now look at you, your business activities and your political taking place. We cannot afford to be inward-looking values—whatever it is. Communication depends on and insular. The UK has a population of 65 million understanding language not just in your space but people. Russia has 140 million. The other 27 members from somebody else’s point of view. of the EU have 270 million. South America and Latin Before we just think, “Well, we’re all English; we America have over half a billion. Africa has more than just speak one language”, as the noble Lord has just 1 billion, India 1.2 billion and China 1.3 billion. The referred to, we should remember that we are all linguistic UK has to wake up. anyway. We speak the language of the head and the My message to the Government and to the Minister language of the heart, the language of consciousness is this. Yes, please carry on doing all you can in your and the language of unconsciousness. There is a universal school reforms to embed still further the learning of language, which religion, sport and compassion unite foreign languages in our schools and other institutions. GC 9 Education: Modern Foreign Languages[18 JANUARY 2018] Education: Modern Foreign Languages GC 10

But on top of that, we have to think big. So many of many ways of learning languages. I know many adults our young people are by instinct internationally minded. who have learned foreign languages online, doing it in It should not be difficult to engage with them so they their spare time. That is particularly attractive to see the benefit, the stimulus and the joy of going to young people, who I understand are more and more another country and talking its language, sharing motivated to learn foreign languages because they do their experiences and creating relationships and bonds not believe that they were very well taught in school. of mutual understanding. So let us get some of Britain’s Therefore, I would definitely back a national language most creative minds on to this. recovery scheme. I very much hope that the Minister This is the challenge that has been raised by the can give us some encouragement on that but, from my noble Baroness—we have to change our thinking big point of view, I would add: do not let us just leave it to time.It cannot just be the responsibility of the Department schools and teachers; let us get the adults learning for Education or of the Government alone. Britain is as well. at a pivotal moment in its history. The world is going to change in ways we cannot even imagine. Yes, we need 1.32 pm practical policies, but we also need inspiring leadership, Lord Evans of Weardale (CB): My Lords,I congratulate imagination and passion. the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, on enabling this important debate. I endorse what has been said by 1.29 pm previous speakers about the importance of language Baroness Janke (LD): My Lords, I am very pleased teaching in the light of Brexit and the potential challenges to be able to join in this debate on the teaching of to sustaining it. I particularly pick up the point made modern foreign languages. I too have been a language about our security and defence interests, which are teacher, not just of foreign languages but of English. definitely reliant on our ability to communicate and Having heard others speak, I can certainly support the understand other countries. Without a language base, fact that in trade and in doing work with people in that becomes a very difficult proposition. other countries, it is essential to have a foreign language. I want to draw particular attention to the international As somebody said to me the other day, you can buy in baccalaureate in this context. The IB is most familiar English but you cannot sell in English, so I hope that to many of us as a stretching curriculum and examination we will take this forward. for sixth formers, but in fact it is very much more than As the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, has already that. There are IB programmes for all stages of school said, provision has dramatically reduced in schools, education, from primary right through to sixth form. I universities and higher education. I heard what the am pleased to declare an interest as a governor of a noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said, and I agree that it state academy that uses the IB to good effect throughout is particularly concerning that so many children in the school, using the middle years programme and the schools were discouraged from taking foreign languages sixth-form programme, and moving towards using a and that those schools were in some of the most primary school programme for the IB. deprived areas of the country. It seems to be a huge The UK is moving out of the EU and into a new injustice that, as we have just heard from the noble relationship with countries in Europe and beyond. In Lord, the values of learning a foreign language have that context, the educational philosophy and principles been denied to many children not only because they of the IB—a global outlook supported by strong were not encouraged but because they were discouraged language teaching, and the development of open-minded from taking a foreign language as part of the drive to and inquiring thinkers who are equipped with the raise standards. critical skills to succeed in the world—are more important In addition to what has been said already, I support than ever. We need that approach if we are to succeed in compulsory language learning in primary schools. this new and challenging environment. The IB curriculum However, if we are to have a national language recovery provides that in a way that is acceptable to children programme, we will have to move very quickly,increasing right through the ability spectrum, from the less able capacity within schools and universities, increasing to the most academic. the number of teachers and changing the culture that I very much hope, therefore, that the Government somehow we in this nation do not really need to speak will encourage more schools, including those that serve foreign languages. As someone who has taught adults, less-privileged communities, to see the importance of I would also say that we need to incentivise people in IB principles and take the opportunity to promote work. I think that employers are very keen to have them through adopting IB programmes. The school their employees speak foreign languages—more so in where I am a governor started as a school in serious view of Brexit. Something like £45 billion is lost to difficulty. It rebooted itself, including by adopting the GDP through the lack of language learning skills. IB principles and has now moved to having an outstanding When I taught English as a foreign language in status. Part of the reason for that, I think, is the France, there were many incentives to learn a foreign aspiration and the vision that the IB gives of being language. Employees were given the time to do so by part of a global community of learning. That outward- their employers, they were given help with payments, looking approach is something that many of our and the Government backed a national scheme. That schools would benefit from in the current climate. was some time ago—lots of people in France now speak English. However, people took that up, and it is 1.35 pm a fallacy to say that people in adult life cannot learn Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD): My Lords, as a languages. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, talked modern language graduate and one-time teacher, I about methodologies in schools, but there are now thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for this GC 11 Education: Modern Foreign Languages[LORDS] Education: Modern Foreign Languages GC 12

[BARONESS GARDEN OF FROGNAL] much greater importance than can be reflected adequately timely debate and for her energetic support for modern in a three-minute contribution. Many noble Lords languages. It is an enthusiasm which I share. have highlighted the figures that demonstrate that The UK does not have a proud record of speaking foreign language teaching in our schools and universities other languages, although our diplomatic and security is—as the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, said—in services have been world leaders, often in somewhat crisis. obscure languages, and we have certainly seen excellence The introduction of the EBacc was designed, in in academic departments and in parts of business, part, to promote greater take-up of French and German, which have proved that the British do have the capacity, but it does not seem to have made an impact. There if not the will, to enjoy languages other than English. are a number of contributing factors, most of which The position in schools and universities—as we have have been referred to today by noble Lords. In part, it heard—is close to critical, as various school initiatives is caused by complacency, with young people feeling reduced the importance of languages, which fed straight they have no need to learn a foreign language because through to diminished university departments and English appears to be ubiquitous. They need to be thence into fewer committed language teachers. The made aware that only a quarter of the world’spopulation discouragement of EU national staff will make the speaks English, which means around 5.5 billion people situation even worse. do not. It is also in part due to a lack of suitably As members of the EU, we have been sheltered to a qualified teachers of languages for schools and that degree on the need for European languages, as English there are fewer teacher education opportunities, especially was deemed one of the languages of choice. But there in the lesser-taught languages. Another factor is cuts will be no need for our European neighbours to continue to school funding, resulting in a reduction in school to give such priority to English if it is no longer one of libraries and their resources. the member languages. A while ago, I asked a Business The decline in young people studying languages is Minister whether linguists were included on trade less likely to be reversed while the Government persist trips and received the answer, “It isn’t necessary; they with their rhetoric, as they have since the referendum, all speak English”. Maybe that is true around the deliberately fostering what the Home Affairs Select table, but what about the informal talk and exchanges Committee described in its report published this week away from negotiations and the snippets of gossip or as “a hostile environment” to immigrants. In addition insight which might be deal-makers? What about the to fostering negative impressions of people who are courtesy of speaking to people in their own languages, “not like us”, and hence their languages, such hostility as the noble Lord, Lord Sherbourne, said? And what has caused foreign nationals to leave the UK while about Willy Brandt’s famous saying, mentioned by my deterring others from coming here. That policy is noble friend Lady Janke: particularly demonstrated by the Government’s senseless “If I am selling to you, I speak your language. If I am buying, determination to include overseas students in the dann müssen Sie Deutsch sprechen”? immigration figures, when in fact they make a decisive Research by Professor James Foreman-Peck for UK net contribution to this country. There is already a Trade & Investment demonstrated that deficient language shortage of modern foreign language teachers, yet the skills cost the UK economy 3.5% of GDP per year, Government’s unwelcoming tone ignores the fact that, which is around £48 billion each year—a sizeable sum. as has already been stated, currently around one-third If and when we leave the EU, it will be essential for of them are non-UK EU nationals. We need more our citizens to be able to engage in conversation, in of them to plug the gap, particularly from France, negotiations and in talking personally or professionally Spain and Germany, but the generally inhospitable with our neighbours in their own languages. Take-up atmosphere—perceived or real—since the referendum is not helped by the view that it is more difficult to get makes that much more difficult. high grades in languages than in other subjects. Surely The effect is also seriously concerning for the ability this should be a matter for exam boards and examiners of young people to prepare themselves for the fast- to address, by bringing grades into line with other changing demands of the economy in the years ahead. subjects. It seems an unnecessary hurdle to put in the At a time when global connections matter more than way of language learning. Can the Minister say what ever, it is worrying that the UK is facing a languages the Government are doing to address the issue of deficit, because that restricts access by young people language GCSEs and A-levels having lower grades to overseas work experience, a vital part of preparation than other subjects? This seems a crucial question if for them to develop a career in international business. we are to raise the attraction of language learning. It is Needless to say, the very real threat to the ability of a matter of urgency that we encourage more young UK students to access the Erasmus+ programme after people to learn and to enjoy the way others communicate we leave the EU is an issue that the Government and, in doing so, to understand better our international simply must resolve through negotiation. Failure to do neighbours. I applaud the work of the British Council so could only lead to a further reduction in the number and British Academy in their research and I hope of undergraduate language courses. This is one of the that the Government listen to and support their recommendations in the British Council’s excellent recommendations on modern language teaching. recent report. I would highlight also the call for minimum time requirements for language teaching—I agree with 1.38 pm the noble Lord, Lord Storey, that that should start at Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, the key stage 1—and for further education and higher noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, deserves our gratitude education providers to integrate language modules for initiating this debate on a subject of real importance— into more of their courses. GC 13 Education: Modern Foreign Languages[18 JANUARY 2018] Education: Modern Foreign Languages GC 14

I hope the Minister will have had the opportunity What action are we taking to improve the take-up in the two months since it was published to study the of languages? I start by saying that I absolutely read British Council report in sufficient detail to respond the view of noble Lords including the noble Baronesses, today to its recommendations, because it is a clarion Lady Coussins and Lady Janke, and my noble friend call for action that is absolutely necessary. Lord Sherborne about the interesting idea of a national language recovery scheme. I will be taking that back to 1.41 pm the Department for Education as an idea to look at. Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con): My Lords, I am In September 2014, we made it mandatory for pleased to answer this Question for Short Debate and maintained primary schools to teach a language to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for her pupils at key stage 2, a point raised by the noble passionate advocacy of the importance of teaching Baroness, Lady Morris. Maintained secondary schools modern foreign languages. When the national curriculum must also teach a language to pupils at key stage 3 and was first introduced, it was compulsory to teach at offer it at key stage 4. An important point about least one language to all pupils in key stages 3 and 4. continuity was made by the noble Lord, Lord Storey. However, it may be that the true value of languages The noble Lord, Lord Watson, asked what was being was not widely embraced, as the Government of the done to encourage students beginning language study day removed this requirement in 2004, as the noble as early as key stage 1. Schools are free to teach Baroness, Lady Coussins, mentioned. Weknow that there languages to children at key stage 1 if they choose to, is much more to be gained from studying a foreign and a wide range of resources are publicly available to language. It can build cultural and global understanding, support teachers who wish to teach languages to younger and improve the ability to think laterally and creatively. children. However, this is not a mandatory requirement, It can also bring benefits from a career perspective: and we have no plans to make it so. languages are important for those working as translators We have introduced the English baccalaureate and in the diplomatic service, but also for those working performance measure, which shows how many pupils in petrochemicals, engineers, banking and any profession entered a GCSE in English, maths, sciences, a language that can lead to working overseas or with international and history or geography.The noble Lord, Lord Watson, partners. asked why the EBacc has not stemmed the downward I would like to chip in at this point to answer a trend in those studying languages in school and whether question raised by my noble friend Lady Hooper. She the English baccalaureate affects teaching of other asked whether civil servant applicants are routinely creative subjects. Pupils who took GCSEs in 2017 will asked about any foreign language skills. As far as I am have made their subject choices in 2014, before the aware, the Civil Service does not ask applicants directly publication of the EBacc consultation. We therefore about language skills unless it is relevant to the role. were not expecting language entries to rise significantly That is something for us to mull over. this year. In July 2017, we published the outcome of As the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, said, we know it is the EBacc consultation, which sets a clear direction of a myth to believe that, as English is spoken fluently by travel for the EBacc, and we expect schools to respond many around the world, there is no need for us to to it. Entries to language GCSEs are now higher than converse in the languages of our international business they were in 2010, but we have always said that the partners. My noble friend Lord Sherbourne put it EBacc should be studied as part of a broad and rather more starkly and succinctly. I was interested balanced curriculum. also to hear what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop In July, we announced our ambition for 75% of of Derby said. He made an important point about the year 10 pupils to be studying the EBacc by 2022. This commonality of language to cross religious and country is an indication of the importance that the Government values. attach to languages, as these aspirations cannot be met We have never been an insular nation, and, in without pupils taking a GCSE in a foreign language. leaving the European Union, it is important that we But there is much more to do, and the noble Baroness, adopt an even more global outlook. In support of this Lady Coussins, eloquently set out most of the challenges concept, the British Council’s Languages for the Future in her speech. Although the proportion of pupils report, published in November 2017, said that we taking the EBacc has risen from 22% in 2010, only must, 38% of pupils in state-funded schools were entered for “initiate a bold new policy to improve foreign language learning GCSEs in all five EBacc subject areas in 2017. for a transformed ‘global Britain’”. I agree, but we are still far from achieving the levels of Take-up of languages GCSEs has been the biggest uptake and proficiency in languages that we need to, obstacle to achieving high EBacc entry rates. In 2017, and those points have been made today. Only 47.3% of of those pupils who entered GCSEs in only four of the pupils entered a languages GCSE in 2017, and in too five EBacc subject areas, 80% had not been entered for many schools only the most academic pupils are a languages GCSE. These figures serve to highlight encouraged to study languages to GCSE level. Yet the extent of the challenge facing us. taught well, all children can become fluent. Maintained The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, reported that schools must offer languages at key stage 4, although schools are using Progress 8 to avoid MFL and that it is not mandatory for pupils to take up that offer. We the EBacc and Progress 8 are in conflict, but we need taking a GCSE to be an option that all pupils believe that these measures are in fact complementary. might want to take, in the knowledge that it will be It is true that a people does not have to do MFL to get enjoyable, is of value and that quality teaching will a good Progress 8 score, but the EBacc’s subjects are enable them to make good progress. given emphasis. What is more important than relying GC 15 Education: Modern Foreign Languages[LORDS] Education: Modern Foreign Languages GC 16

[VISCOUNT YOUNGER OF LECKIE] wanting to move towards the compulsory angle. I have on performance measures is to ensure that pupils want set out clearly the actions that we are taking, but I did to take languages because they see the value and are say at the outset that this debate, along with other well taught—a point I made earlier. debates which might be held, will feed into the department. We have considered practical steps to help schools. Perhaps new ideas will emerge, particularly those raised First, Mandarin is cited by Languages for the Future, by the noble Lord and the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, along with French, German, Spanish and Arabic, as in their speeches. one of the five most important languages for this I would like to move on to teacher supply and country’s future. The Mandarin excellence programme, retention. We cannot grow this pool without enough which began in September 2016, will see at least 5,000 high-quality teachers in our schools. That is why we young people on track towards fluency in Mandarin are working to grow a strong pipeline of teachers from Chinese by 2020. Schools on the programme provide within England. But let me be clear: there are more four hours’ direct teaching time to pupils, supplemented teachers than ever before in our schools—15,500 more by another four hours’ study. This has led to pupils than in 2010. The number of teachers returning to the making great progress in that language. profession has risen by 8% since 2011, and we are Secondly, the recently published social mobility encouraged that the number of people starting initial action plan outlined plans to improve access to high- teacher training in 2017 was up on the year before. quality modern foreign languages subject teaching. However, in case I am accused of being complacent, Expert hubs will see schools with a good track record we know absolutely that the recruitment landscape is in teaching languages sharing best practice in pedagogy. tough. We are alive to the challenges that the improving Thirdly, there is a need to step up communications economy and the pressures of rising pupil numbers by highlighting the importance and value of languages pose. Recruitment in priority subjects like languages to parents, pupils and teachers alike. Our future has historically been challenging, and that is why we communications will highlight the role that languages have put a package of measures in place to support the can and must play in improving pupils’ achievement recruitment of trainees and the retention of existing across subjects. These actions to increase the number teachers.Wecontinue to offer generous financial incentives, of pupils entering languages GCSEs will build a larger including scholarships and tax-free bursaries, which pool of potential A-level and degree students. are typically worth up to £26,000, for trainees in The noble Lord, Lord Watson, asked a question priority subjects, including modern foreign languages. about the Government’s plans to address the causes of We have also developed a number of measures to the decline in modern languages degree courses in encourage more specialists into initial teacher universities—and he asked what we think the cause is. training, including targeted marketing campaigns and We think that the key factor impacting MFLs in providing support to potential applicants across priority higher education is the decline in the take-up of languages subjects. at GCSE level. I have already referred to the positive I should like to move on to the recruitment of steps we are taking to address that, but there is some teachers from overseas. As we grow the domestic evidence that a substantial number of students continue pipeline of teachers, we are exploring international to develop language and intercultural skills during recruitment initiatives in the short term. For example, higher education, evidenced by an upswing in students we have worked with the Spanish Government to choosing to study language modules alongside their expand their visitor teacher programme to England. non-language degree subject. The annual UCML/ While most teachers are recruited from this country, Association of University Language Centre’s survey schools have been able to recruit staff from overseas to of institution-wide language providers in UK higher fill posts that cannot be filled from the resident workforce. education institutions suggests that the numbers have As we recruit more teachers nationally—this is a point more than doubled in a decade. mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins—and Lord Watson of Invergowrie: I thank the Minister work to increase retention, we expect a reduction in for answering some of the questions I provided in the need for these initiatives. advance, but there seems to be an element, if not of We fully appreciate the valuable contribution that complacency, at least of just leaving it at young people EU nationals make to teaching languages in our schools being encouraged to take up more languages. It may and universities.In December,the UK and EU negotiating happen or it may not happen, and at the moment it is teams issued a joint report on the first phase of the not happening. I have heard nothing which suggests Brexit negotiations. This has helped to provide certainty that what the Government are doing or planning to do for those EU nationals, including MFL teachers, who will suddenly create the step change that the noble will be living in the UK when we exit the EU. It sets Baroness, Lady Coussins, said is necessary in her out a fair deal on citizens’ rights that allows UK and introduction. As the noble Lord, Lord Storey, said, in EU citizens to get on with their lives broadly as they countries such as Germany it is compulsory. We really do now, continuing to enjoy rights such as access to have to grasp the fact that language teaching in this healthcare, benefits and education. country, certainly in the early years, has to become compulsory or there is no reason to believe that the I realise that time is against me and know that a figures will improve. number of other points were raised, notably by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, and the noble Lords, Viscount Younger of Leckie: I thought that the Lord Watson and Lord Evans. I shall write to all noble noble Lord might want to make that point, but that is Lords and put a copy of the letter in the Library of the the next step, is it not? We are not at the stage of House answering those queries. GC 17 Education: Modern Foreign Languages [18 JANUARY 2018] Defence Review GC 18

To conclude, I have heard certain messages from hollowing out that is taking place daily. This is known noble Lords today, and it is clear that we are at a not just by our allies—in particular,the United States—but crossroads in the future of languages teaching in our by our potential enemies. education system. Doing nothing is not an option and What is most worrying is that our people and their the Government are taking positive steps through the families and, of course, all those involved in our initiatives I have outlined. There may be more to do, defence industries are only too aware of our known but I am encouraged by the passion and support your weaknesses, and so increasingly are the public at large Lordships have shown today for improving the profile via the media in their many forms. Is it therefore a of languages within our education system. surprise that the quality of those we are trying to recruit is faltering? And worse, some of our best are 1.55 pm leaving. I am sure that other noble and noble and gallant Lords will spell out those needs during this Sitting suspended. short debate. The men and women who serve and wish to serve in our armed services are by far the key construct, and it Defence Review is vital that they and their families are fully confident Question for Short Debate that the necessary resources will unquestionably be available so that not only can they fight to the best of 2 pm their abilities but they are provided with the finest protection. Of course we accept that we are not trying Asked by Lord Sterling of Plaistow to emulate our world role as it was in the Churchill To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they days of the Second World War, but in the years to intend to conduct a full defence review, in the light come we must have a fighting force of the necessary of the capability of the Armed Forces to meet strength which will in itself be a deterrent—the finest global defence needs. equipped and the finest trained, led by forward-thinking, innovative leadership that can respond immediately to possible expected threats and, most of all, the unexpected. Baroness Stedman-Scott (Con): My Lords,I respectfully Our armed services have always played a key role in remind your Lordships that the time in which to speak responding to catastrophic events that take place from is limited to two minutes. I am sorry about that but if time to time throughout the world. noble Lords could honour it, I would be very grateful. As recently endorsed by our Secretary of State for Defence, the right honourable Gavin Williamson, our Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con): May I be allowed Armed Forces should be the “best in the world”. to ask whether that includes breathing time? Much needs to be changed if this goal is to be achieved, My Lords, I am most grateful to have the opportunity but many act as though we have all the time in the to address this crucial subject in your Lordships’ world—we need it like yesterday. House. In Her Majesty’s Loyal Address on 27 May 2015, On Thursday of last week, 11 January, I went to the the Queen used the word “re-engage”. I tried to find Commons to observe and listen to the Back-Bench out who put that word in—No. 10, the Foreign Office defence debate led by Vernon Coaker, MP, the or the palace? I never nailed it down. distinguished former shadow Secretary of State, who That word says it all. We have been disengaging for made an excellent opening speech and closed with years from many countries—and, crucially, from those passion. If you have not read it, it is a must. What is of the Commonwealth. They are fast coming to the more, it is better to watch it live, as Hansard does not conclusion that we are becoming part of yesterday. We do justice to the experience of seeing the body language, all know that to recover respect and standing is a hard the passion, the eloquence and the deep knowledge of hill to climb. the subject among our Members of Parliament. James Early last year I, and others, called for a fully Gray MP, chairman of the APPG for the Armed up-to-date SDSR, as it had become more than clear Forces, pointed out that in the past, there were five that not only had the world become a vastly more government-called debates on defence every year, and dangerous place but our withdrawal from the European the House was packed. Union—not Europe—added a major global dimension What was also splendid was the non-partisan to our needs and responsibilities. Circumstances in participation from all sides of the House, covering the 2018 are light years away from those in 2014-15. whole of the United Kingdom: Labour, Conservative, As many of us who were involved at the time knew, SNP,and other MPs from Scotland, Wales and Northern the 2010 SDSR was, frankly, an unmitigated disaster Ireland et cetera. It was also clear that unless the right from which the Ministry of Defence has still not fully levels of resources were forthcoming, there was and recovered. The 2015 review was carried out in a much would be grave disquiet behind the Government Benches. more professional way, the result of which substantially I am sorry to have to have to inform my noble friend improved the hardware and kit for our armed services, the Minister that I would totally share that sentiment. but the financial resources needed were heavily under- The debate lasted nearly five hours, and I only wish estimated. Ministers are still instructed to keep to the the public and the media were aware that they have government line—namely,the now famous “2% NATO”, such calibre of MPs trying to do their duty on behalf and so on and so on—yet they must be more than of the nation for the defence of the realm. They aware of the lack of resources leading to the dangerous should be truly grateful for their efforts. I am sure my GC 19 Defence Review [LORDS] Defence Review GC 20

[LORD STERLING OF PLAISTOW] On a different subject, President Trump—I reiterate noble friend the Minister would strongly agree that President Trump, not Trump—released the US national this House, with all its knowledge, experience and security strategy just before the Christmas break. As wisdom, has the same unquestionable sense of duty. usual, television, radio and other media immediately It is has been known for at least three years that panned it in a most superficial way.Later that afternoon, much greater resource was needed to support both I discussed the release and the document itself with a present and future defence needs, taking account of very senior officer in the Department of Defense and course of the increasing roles of cyber, intelligence, we both agreed that it was not only a most interesting technology et cetera. It was hoped much would result document but the declaration of a confident country— from the security review which was started by our I stress the word “confident”. It is a country that is National Security Adviser, Sir Mark Sedwill, last June. further strengthening its already extraordinary economy It consisted of 12 strands, but with only one strand and which, not surprisingly, puts “America first” but, covering the Ministry of Defence. unlike President Obama who was becoming increasingly However, that review has to be fiscally neutral. It isolationist, intends to return to its former world role does not make sense. Surely, the outcome should be of defending and protecting western values throughout fully costed in order to decide the total resources the world. It is totally understandable that the President needed to decide the way forward. I was a founder considers it only fair that the rest of us share the bill. member of the Joint Committee on the National Our relationship with the United States through Security Strategy some 12 years ago, and we all agreed history—our key military ally,our expectation to be major then that the National Security Council should be a trading partners and our shared culture—is unique. key organisation for this country, but that it did not Therefore, I find it extraordinary that the Government, have the right structure to achieve this objective. I am despite the degree of anti-feeling, were not more robust afraid the jury is still out. It should be a strategic body months ago to warmly invite the President of the and much more widely represented, with the direct United States of America to visit the United Kingdom. involvement of the Chiefs of Staff with their own Historically, this country was famous for its realpolitik; strategic input. both Germany and France, who are not known lovers Dr Julian Lewis, the chairman of the Defence Select of the United States, are more than prepared to use it Committee, stated in the Commons debate that in to the full. Personal views should play no part whatever. times past, in particular during World War II and Today, sadly, this country could not release a national later, their strategic views were given direct to both security strategy with the same confidence of that of Prime Ministers, Winston Churchill and then Clement the United States but, with powerful leadership and Atlee. Sir Mark, as National Security Adviser, must be the support of parliamentarians, that day can come. allowed to be more independent—to have more We will have done our duty. independence and therefore influence—more like his counterparts in the United States. 2.11 pm We are dangerously running out of time. I personally Baroness Anelay of St Johns (Con): My Lords, I find most frustrating the length of time it takes for shall focus on the importance of continuing to develop decisions to be made and implemented. If we were on soft power and the UK’scontribution to UN peacekeeping a war footing, much of this bureaucratic baggage work. Our Armed Forces play an invaluable role in would immediately fall away. Many of us in both our securing our national influence around the world and Houses wish to see a properly funded foreign service delivering on our security and economic goals. The delivering a clear long-term foreign policy, itemising expertise of the UK Armed Forces is, as my noble both risks and opportunities. A proper defence review friend has said, both legendary and highly valued. I should clearly identify value for money, not just cost, witnessed this when I was the Prime Minister’s special and demonstrate clearly the financial resources needed representative for the preventing sexual violence in for both our short-term and long-term needs in cash-flow conflict initiative and the Foreign Office Minister terms. responsible for UN peacekeeping. I visited the British As we speak, some £2 billion is most urgently support team in Kenya, and was impressed by their needed just to complete the present programme. As teaching courses for police and security personnel Dr Lewis and many others in both Houses have stressed, from across the region. Last year alone, 9,000 military, and continue to stress, we should unquestionably allocate police and civilians were trained in specialist areas, at least 3% of our GDP—which is still a low percentage ranging from protection of civilians, through numerous in comparison with the past. Many billions would types of tactical training to high-end weapons technical flow back into our own economy through sovereign intelligence and counter-IED courses. It is essential purchases, and it will unquestionably be of economic that we enable that work to continue in future. benefit. This level of funding would send a powerful The UK’s contribution to UN peacekeeping was signal to our NATO allies and certainly help our enhanced in 2015 when David Cameron announced negotiations with the European Union. that, in addition to our financial support, we would The First Lord of the Treasury is the Prime Minister, send personnel as a troop contributing country to so surely the Treasury does not have the final word. South Sudan. There, I met our Engineer Regiment-led Following her powerful speech at Lancaster House, I task force, stationed in the north of South Sudan, would like to think that the very strong views expressed which provides engineering support, such as the in both Houses will convince the Prime Minister that construction of a jetty on the River Nile, a vital she has the quality of support which would enable her temporary field hospital in Bentiu and helicopter landing words to become a reality. sites. I was therefore delighted when my noble friend GC 21 Defence Review [18 JANUARY 2018] Defence Review GC 22 the Minister announced last November that the UK is chooses to remain in office, he has to bear some extending its deployment in South Sudan until April responsibility for the financial situation that is ongoing 2020. It is, indeed, a demonstration of our commitment at the Ministry of Defence. It is clear from the exchanges to international peace and security. We need to be earlier in the week that the review has been nobbled sure that any review of spending and of our forces and is being dovetailed, as was said earlier, into the demonstrates a commitment to do much more in existing budget. I strongly support greater NATO- future. European co-operation, and welcome the Anglo-French announcements today. Sadly, such greater co-operation 2.13 pm is not helped by the tragedy of Brexit. We live in an Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab): My Lords, we are increasingly dangerous world: China and Russia are deeply grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, for modernising their forces and increasing defence giving us the opportunity for this debate today, as well expenditure, and the underwater threat is a particular as for giving the House the opportunity to respond by concern. In my view, the current ratio of 3:1 defence showing the pent-up demand for a proper defence expenditure to overseas aid is unsustainable. I favour a debate that lasts all day. I hope that the powers that be reduction in overseas aid from 0.7% to 0.5%, which have taken note of that response. I am left with about would provide at least £2 billion annually for the one and half minutes to make three points. defence budget. The first point is that, like everybody else, and any I want to finish with a brief question to the Minister. responsible citizen of this country and Members on Will he inform us of the latest position on the propulsion both sides of the House, I hope to heaven that the systems for the Type 45 destroyers? Government are not planning any more defence cuts after the terrible way in which our defence capability 2.17 pm has been run down over the past seven or eight years. Lord Stirrup (CB): My Lords, the Treasury-mandated It would be utterly unjustifiable; the world has not in starting point for the 2010 defence review was a reduction any sense become a less dangerous place, and there is in the MoD’s budget of between 10% and 20% to be no justification whatever for that. achieved over the first three years.The measures necessary My second point is that, on that positive assumption to achieve such savings so quickly proved unpalatable, that the Government do not have those plans—it really even to a Government focused wholly on the elimination would be horrific if they did—I hope that they will put of the deficit over the span of one Parliament. But an end to the uncertainty by making a clear statement even the savings that were eventually made, of some that there will not be any further defence cuts. The 7.5%, inevitably left a strategically incoherent defence moment that comes up in any conversation that anybody programme. The best that could be done was to reach has with serving military personnel, officers or other a position in 2015 from which coherence could be rebuilt, ranks, there is a real worry on that subject. I am sure provided that substantial real-terms increases were made that many colleagues have had such conversations in in the defence budget in each of the succeeding years. the past few weeks and months. This is really affecting morale, and it must be affecting recruitment. This is a In the 2015 review, the MoD produced a plan to quite unnecessary cost to impose on our military, on restore coherence, although more slowly than envisaged top of everything else. I hope, therefore, that clarity in 2010, but the plan was inadequately funded. It can be established very quickly. relied on wholly unrealistic assumptions about the savings that could be made through efficiency. When, My third point is this: I gather one reason why the unsurprisingly, these failed to materialise, the plan was MoD has run into financial problems recently has in trouble, and the subsequent fall in the exchange rate been the devaluation of sterling, and the higher sterling only exacerbated the problem. price as a result of procurement from the United States and, to some extent, the European Union, of The Government now face a choice: they can provide the A400M programme. I suppose that the F35 is the more money and fund the plan properly or they must major issue here. I hope we can have a statement on come up with a new plan. I, of course, urge them to this from the Minister to put our minds at rest, because adopt the former course, not least because this is the one thing that is absolutely clear is that under no minimum action that is required. Let it be remembered circumstances should the military be made to pay the that the 2015 plan was about achieving coherence, not price for that devaluation. In no sense whatever is it about restoring our defence capabilities to where they the military’s fault. This is a direct result of government should be in this challenging and dangerous world. policy to hold the referendum and, afterwards, to That would require an annual expenditure of more decide—quite gratuitously, in my view—to understand like 3% of GDP.Alas, I do not expect the Government it as excluding us from the single market and the to go so far. However, I trust that the Minister will, in customs union. This is having a devastating effect on due course, be able to confirm that they will at least do the economy, of course, but it is nothing to do with the this bare minimum. I, like many other Members of military,and the military should not be made responsible your Lordships’ House, would view anything less with for it or have to suffer for it. That would be utterly the gravest concern. unjust and irrational. 2.19 pm 2.16 pm The Lord Bishop of Portsmouth: My Lords, I confide Lord Lee of Trafford (LD): My Lords, I have a few in you. Priests—even bishops, perhaps particularly brief points. I have great respect for the noble Earl, so—are inclined to repeat themselves. I imagine noble Lord Howe, but I say this in the nicest way: if he Lords might have noticed. I have heard it said that we GC 23 Defence Review [LORDS] Defence Review GC 24

[THE LORD BISHOP OF PORTSMOUTH] make sure that I did not do more than my two minutes have only one sermon in us and just dress the message that I will misuse a few of my seconds now in apologising. up differently each Sunday. I will be repeating my I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, for making message today, and I am grateful to the noble Lord, sure that your Lordships’ House keeps coming back to Lord Sterling, for the opportunity to do so. I am just the question of defence and defence expenditure. As as grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for listening he said, in the other place last week there was an to my repetition with the grace, care and attention that excellent debate on defence where all the contributors, we all appreciate. from whichever part of the other place, made clear My message is that I applaud the Government’s their commitments to the Armed Forces and defence ambition for defence, which is about British power for expenditure. good in the world—but as things stand, I doubt that For slight reasons of getting the list wrong—it is we have the capability, or the defence budget to deliver not just me today—I do not speak as the Liberal the capability, to meet that ambition. Things could be Democrats Front-Bench speaker at the end of the list. about to get worse, judging by what we read in the However, on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I want media. So, if we are to meet the Government’s ambition, to reconfirm that we are still committed to 0.7% of we must also review our ability to do so. GDP going to development aid. My noble friend Lord My second point is that the present state of uncertainty Lee made very good points about defence expenditure, is not helpful, and that is an understatement. The but he maybe is not putting forward the party line on media is not the forum in which to conduct discussions development aid. on defence expenditure. We should have discussions in We are deeply concerned about expenditure. I seem private, followed speedily by clarity in public. That to recall that in the aftermath of the referendum the would be fair to those who are affected, so they know Minister repeatedly told us that defence expenditure where they stand. The current lack of clarity creates was essentially hedged and would rise in real terms, uncertainty, particularly among the servicemen and yet that is not the advice that we seem to be given now. women we value so much. What commitment can he give us that defence expenditure My final point is also on morale. The noble Earl will be ring-fenced in real terms? The right reverend may have an inkling of the direction in which I am Prelate the Bishop of Portsmouth rightly mentioned heading. I hope that he will be able to respond to my morale in our Armed Forces. What is the Minister question on whether he can commit to a debate on the doing about the offer in terms of pay and pensions, Floor of the House on the Armed Forces covenant—an and to what extent does he think morale is in the right opportunity to pat the Government on the back for all place? Can more be done? In particular, can he reassure that has been done and to look forward to all that us that adequate training will be given, including might be done. When it comes to defence, our greatest extreme-weather training for the Royal Marines, and riches are the commitment, sacrifice and professionalism that the Royal Marines’ position in our Armed Forces of our Armed Forces. We need to provide them with remains absolutely secure? resources and end this ghastly uncertainty. 2.25 pm Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD): My Lords, like other Members of your Lordships’ House, I am most Lord Craig of Radley (CB): My Lords, deterrence is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sterling. Oh, have I not just having Trident invulnerable at sea; it needs jumped ahead? I am so sorry. national resolve, with conventional defence and hitting power, too. A tripwire alone will not sustain deterrence 2.22 pm credibility. Lord Freeman (Con): My Lords, I wish to raise a If diplomacy fails to avert conflict, or there is a bolt very specific point for the Minister, concerning the from the blue, what next? First, indicate determination Royal Navy and maintaining its reach. not to give in and fight back with conventional force. Her Majesty’s Ship “Queen Elizabeth”—a carrier—is If not, face the starkest of choices: immediate surrender most welcome, and shortly she will enter into full or press that nuclear button. service, but she needs substantial support. For example, Since the 1990s, we have had complete air superiority she needs submarines underneath her, destroyers to over opposing forces. That was not so in the Falklands. protect her, frigates and, obviously, supply ships and The opponent could not be denied airspace. Our losses landing craft et cetera. My main concern about the mounted: six fighting ships and landing craft sunk; veritable naval armada that is contained, or implied, others knocked out of action; more than 30 air assets by these two great, new carriers is the implication for gone; nearly 1,000 dead or wounded, all in a mere the existing service provided by the Royal Navy, in three weeks. Only victory brought salvation, a halt to terms of protection in the Gulf, South Atlantic and these setbacks and escape from disaster. After the Pacific. How will we maintain the proper servicing for conflict, we had enough in strength to make up for an aircraft carrier—indeed, we will have two, with one what had been lost. always at sea—and how can we maintain our worldwide Not so today. Losses at those rates now could soon reach, as I believe we should? leave us conventionally defenceless. The forces are too weak in manpower, equipment and weapons to absorb 2.23 pm such losses and still fight on. So stop gutting and Baroness Smith of Newnham: My Lords, first, I hollowing out the services. Let us build up numbers. apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Freeman, for jumping If not, the national deterrent will be derided as mere the gun. I was so keen to put my stopwatch on and political tokenism—the country an emperor with GC 25 Defence Review [18 JANUARY 2018] Defence Review GC 26 threadbare clothes. The deterrent lacks full credibility Wecannot continue gaffer-taping up our disintegrating without more conventional clout to underpin it. Reviewers, defence. We must either fund properly the capabilities please take note. set out in SDSR 2015, or we should have a proper defence review to recalibrate our country’s requirement 2.27 pm for defence. If that suggests that our defence capability should be largely as now, let us see it resourced properly. Baroness Wilcox (Con): The way in which the noble If there is not the will to do that, cut cloth and Lord, Lord Sterling, has put his Question together is recognise that the Government’s global ambitions are fairly open-ended, which gives a lot of us a chance, so a wish too far. I have lost two pages of what I was going to say by now. 2.32 pm I picked up the Times newspaper last week and was rather delighted to read that our national shipbuilding Lord Touhig (Lab): My Lords, the noble Earl’s strategy has gone to work. It has recognised the challenges Statement on Monday left me with more questions faced by the MoD and the UK industry and set out an than answers. In response to my noble friend Lord ambitious plan to improve the way in which the MoD Tunnicliffe he said that the SDSR 2015 did not sufficiently goes about procuring warships and how industry responds predict the intensification of the threats that Britain to the MoD. Procuring Type 31e through a competitive now faces. What specific steps will be taken to ensure process within UK shipyards and with a capped cost this error is not repeated? What is covered by a security of £250 million per ship will not only ensure that the capability review that was not covered by SDSR 2015? Royal Navy can afford to buy enough of the ships it He told us that the Government had to be realistic in needs to meet its global commitments but will deliver how they configure the defence budget over the next value for money for taxpayers and strengthen UK few years. Does not that mean even more cuts? He said industry, including through exports. We can do that that the capability review was fiscally neutral, adding because, right now, no other shipbuilding can match that that may mean enhancing resources for certain the price tag for our frigates. capabilities and reducing them for others. He said that I was also very tickled to read in the article that it spending more on defence was not currently the reality looked like the end of BAE’s monopoly after all that that the Government were working on in this review. time. Here we have competition back again. So I am a So can we deduce from the Minister’s comments that little more optimistic about what is going on. I am his Secretary of State has given way in his battle for rather keen on us all having these fights every now and more money from the Treasury? again. If we keep doing it, we will eventually feel that The noble Earl said that plans to support the national we are where we need to be. The man that we had security strategy would be as effective and efficient as involved with this is Sir John Parker, the industrialist possible—and this from a Government that spent and veteran of shipbuilding. Such men and women £16 million on refitting RFA “Diligence”, our only will take us to our next fight. at-sea repair ship, in order to scrap it, then spent £65 million on refitting HMS “Ocean”, our only vessel 2.29 pm capable of allowing marines to deploy using landing craft and helicopters, only to scrap that, too, then Lord Boyce (CB): My Lords, I declare my interests announced that a further £20 million would be spent as set out in the register. The 2015 defence review set on adapting one of the carriers to carry out the role out our strategic priorities and a vision for how defence that “Ocean” carried out. Certainly “efficient” and should contribute to our country’s global ambitions. “effective”would not be the words that I would use—but That review was under-resourced to the tune of half a then that comes from a Government who attempted to billion pounds and that, added to the current adverse sell HMS “Ark Royal” on eBay. pound/dollar exchange rate, defence equipment inflation Today our Prime Minister is meeting the French versus headline inflation and the failure of some efficiencies President, hoping to agree further defence co-operation. measures, results in today’s serious underfunding of Will the Prime Minister explain to Monsieur Macron the defence budget. Thus cuts are under way now. why, since 2010, this Government have overseen a Incidentally, I take issue with the Minister in saying in 50% reduction in our military capability, a point made our November debate that I was “completely wrong” by my noble friend Lord West of Spithead? It would regarding cuts having to be found to compensate for be a welcome start if Mrs May called a halt to Britain’s efficiencies not properly delivered. I am not wrong descent into becoming a second-rate military power, on that. and that rather than a piecemeal stab at a national In addition to today’s cuts, further drastic savings security capability review, the Government should have measures are being considered. The Minister will say a top to bottom review of our defence and security that this is all speculation and that no decisions have needs based on our foreign policy objectives, then provide been made, but I suggest that he cannot deny that the resources we need. some very serious capability measures are being costed. If they are taken, that will have a dramatic effect on 2.35 pm our ability to meet our SDSR 2015 mission requirements, and the Armed Forces will certainly not be able to Viscount Trenchard (Con): My Lords, I congratulate deliver properly on contributing to the Government’s my noble friend Lord Sterling of Plaistow on introducing aspirations to be a global player, aspirations frequently this timely, yet too short debate. As General Sir Nick articulated by the Prime Minister, the Secretary of Carter acknowledged recently on the “Today”programme, State for Defence and, indeed, the noble Earl himself. the security threats faced by this country have never GC 27 Defence Review [LORDS] Defence Review GC 28

[VISCOUNT TRENCHARD] comparative advantage, disregarding vanity projects been greater during his 40-year career. We are one of and matching critical requirements to budgetary only five countries, including Greece and Estonia, constraints are fundamental. I would hope to hear which observe the NATO guideline to spend at least today of much-needed tightened departmental guidelines 2% of GDP on defence. I am not sure that we do still on contract awards, spending procedures and budgetary meet the 2% guideline, because we used not to include control, as well as enhanced in-house scrutiny and the intelligence and security budget within defence delivery capabilities. spending. Over the last several years, we have progressively Political masters have an unenviable challenge to moved the intelligence budget into defence, making it fund and deliver the effective tools and processes for hard to compare present spending with that of 10 years each of the four strategic needs: ground, sea, air, and ago as a proportion of GDP. Perhaps my noble friend cyber. The fourth, the new threat of cyber, represents the Minister could inform the Committee what is the the biggest challenge. Is the Minister satisfied the current level of defence spending as compared with United Kingdom has the resources and capabilities to that of 10 years ago, on the same basis as we used to counter current and future cyber threats? In order to measure it? I suspect that it is more like 1.7% than 2%. ensure maximum necessary capability in our cybersecurity Of course, I understand that we now conform to the arsenal, we must know the extent of future co-operation NATO rules for measuring spending—so perhaps the on software vulnerability with ENISA, the EU cyber- Minister alternatively could tell us what defence spending security agency. I understand that a proposal to set up would have been 10 years ago, if we had already at that a certification framework, with ENISA as the hub, is time started including the intelligence budget within in the offing, so from that point we can calculate our defence. needs and costs. Are the Government addressing this My noble friend referred to Mr Vernon Coaker, with ENISA, or is this subject to the ongoing Brexit who expressed concern that, if the current national negotiations? security capability review is to be fiscally neutral, and Her Majesty’s Government might wish to consider if spending on cyber and intelligence capabilities is to hosting a state-level global conference to map out be increased, then it follows that the Government political, security and cyber dialogues and responsibilities must be considering cutting pure defence expenditure and to co-ordinate necessary scrutiny and enforcement or the capabilities of the Armed Forces. That would be mechanisms. extremely dangerous in the current climate. Could I ask my noble friend the Minister if the Government 2.39 pm are still firmly committed to increasing pure defence Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, the Question put spending in absolute terms, and as a percentage of GDP? by the noble Lord, Lord Sterling, is: should we have a There are several reasons why the United Kingdom full SDSR? It seems to me that the response to that still punches above its weight around the world. Our depends on the effectiveness of the present process, country’s much-envied soft power does not depend which we were told about on 15 January.The affirmation only on the excellent quality of our foreign service then was that the threat was as in 2015 or worse, and personnel, highly skilled and effective though they are. another was that there was no more money. Another Our soft power is considerably augmented by our hard affirmation was that there would be no more muddling power, or at least the perception that we still possess or hollowing out—call it what you like—with training the highest-quality Armed Forces in the world—by no cuts, a reduction in spares, ships tied up and repairs means the largest, but the most effective and well deferred. Frankly, those three statements are incapable trained, man for man, in the world. Perhaps nowadays of delivery. There is at least a £2 billion per year gap I should say “person for person”, which leads me and it is necessary to do something about that. finally to ask my noble friend the Minister whether he So there is muddling—we know that there is. That shares my concern that the attempt to recruit more is why morale is falling—the morale figures from the people from different backgrounds, religions and last review were dreadful—and it is why we are failing orientations, and also to pander more to the emotional to recruit and maintain the numbers. It is inevitable well-being of personnel at the expense of the traditional that there will be cuts. Can we have an assurance from emphasis on physical fitness, threatens to backfire and the Minister that when, sadly, there are cuts, there will may be counterproductive? Does he not agree that this be detailed explanations of the security and defence new, politically correct approach may put off those threats that we are leaving exposed in our foreign potential recruits from traditional backgrounds, and policy? We will know of such threats only at the end of that the Armed Forces may lose more than they gain? a full SDSR taking place. I believe that the consensus Does he not think it very important to continue to view that we will need a lengthy debate at the end of exhort our soldiers, sailors and airmen—I cannot that process is sound, and I will certainly be working bring myself to say air persons—to be the best? That through my channels to see whether we can have such would optimise the recruitment of suitable personnel a debate. from both traditional and the more diverse new backgrounds. 2.41 pm 2.37 pm The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Earl Howe) Viscount Waverley (CB): My Lords, we must now (Con): My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord determine our future contribution and place in the Sterling on securing this important debate. As the world, while balancing the protection of our national debate has proved, his Question undoubtedly reflects interests and achievement of our foreign policy goals. the considerable interest in the subject across the Developing conventional capability partnerships for House, and rightly so. GC 29 Defence Review [18 JANUARY 2018] Defence Review GC 30

Before I address my noble friend’s Question directly, the UK’s contribution to NATO and the UN reinforces I shall set the context. As noble Lords are aware, the international security and the multilateral institutions National Security Adviser has been leading work on a by which it is upheld. The UK is leading the NATO national security capability review since July. It has enhanced forward presence battle group in Estonia, been an important opportunity for the Government to commanding a significant proportion of NATO’sstanding conduct a thorough analysis of intensifying threats to naval forces, and as my noble friend Lady Anelay national security and to consider their impact on the reminded us, contributing to the UN Missions in South implementation of the 2015 national security strategy Sudan and Somalia. and strategic defence and security review. Finally, defence makes a very large contribution to Defence has played a major role in the capability the prosperity of the UK. In December, the Secretary review, contributing a huge amount of work. There of State announced a huge £6 billion contract with can be no doubt that we will continue to build on Qatar for 24 Typhoon aircraft, a huge boost to UK elements of that good work after the review has drawn aviation. Equally, contracts emerging from the national to a close, further exploring the opportunities for shipbuilding strategy—for the Type 26 and, as my noble modernisation that have been identified. friend Lady Wilcox rightly mentioned, the Type 31e— However, it is important that I do not pre-empt the support thousands of UK jobs and hundreds of UK completion of the capability review. Ministers will suppliers, as does the Ajax armoured fighting vehicle discuss its conclusions in due course and will consider programme. The defence industrial policy was published what needs to happen next. Precisely because of that, in December. It sets out measures to help the UK and because we believe that the last SDSR is a sound defence sector to thrive on the global stage, including basis for the work that we are doing, I am sure that my by supporting small and medium-sized enterprises, noble friend will appreciate that I cannot stand here reinforcing critical skills and training, and increasing today and commit the Government to conducting a investment in defence innovation. I encourage noble full defence review. Lords to seek it out. The substance of my noble friend’s Question is the These are our global defence needs. It is clear that capability of the Armed Forces to meet global defence the Armed Forces are meeting them. But changes in needs, as he well articulated. Those defence needs, and the global strategic context require changes in the way indeed our wider foreign policy, begin with the three we conduct the business of defence and security. I have national security objectives set out in the 2015 national spoken in recent debates about increasing threats faced security strategy: protect our people, project our global by the UK and its allies. I do not propose to repeat influence and promote our prosperity. The Armed myself—I think we all agree that we have entered a Forces, and the wider defence enterprise, make an period of sharply increased complexity and risk. The expert and admirable contribution to the fulfilment of boundaries between competition, confrontation and those objectives. That will not change. conflict are becoming blurred, and the use of military The protection of our people is clearly at the very and non-military capabilities is being blended. Our heart of what defence exists to do. At home, the adversaries are investing heavily in traditional capabilities Armed Forces contribute to the resilience of the UK. and in non-traditional tools,such as cyber and subversion. They support the police under Operation Temperer They are taking advantage of the proliferation of and hold 1,200 troops at very high readiness under cheap yet sophisticated technology to exploit our existing government winter preparedness plans.Their outstanding vulnerabilities and to try to create new ones. support to UK overseas territories in the Caribbean I will need to write to a number of noble Lords to last year, following Hurricane Irma, offers a remarkable give full answers to the questions put to me, but let me example of their capabilities in this latter regard. In address at least some. First, there is the perennial UK airspace and territorial waters, the Armed Forces question of the defence budget. Of course we must keep a constant guard against threats. The recent images provide defence with sufficient resources to meet the of HMS “Westminster” shadowing Russian warships country’s needs. But passionate as we may be about through the Strait of Dover will be familiar. defence, we must do the same for health and social Beyond our borders, the Armed Forces protect us care, for education, for welfare and for civil infrastructure. through their potent deterrent effect. We tend to think Balancing those competing demands is the difficult first of the UK’s continuous at-sea deterrent, and business of government. I can, however, assure the more recently of our developing carrier strike capability. noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and my noble friend But every force element in our Armed Forces makes a Lord Trenchard that the defence budget is rising in vital contribution to our ability to deter. Wherever real terms: £35 billion last year, £36 billion this year, they are deployed, whatever task they are undertaking, £37 billion next year and £38 billion the year after that. the Armed Forces’ world-leading professionalism and The noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, raised the skill send a powerful deterrent message to any would-be subject of resilience. The need to maintain resilience—the adversaries, and allow us to project our global influence. ability to absorb the losses that you may suffer in In the latter context, our troops are building the theatre—is of course one that we fully recognise. I capacity of our allies and partners across the world. In assure him that, as ever, it informs all deliberations on Iraq, the UK Armed Forces have helped to train over the structure of the UK’sArmed Forces as we go forward. 60,000 Iraqi security forces. In Ukraine, the UK has In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Touhig, in provided defensive training in medical skills, logistics particular, the purpose of the NSCR is precisely to and counter-IED. We are training the Libyan coast ensure that we have the right capabilities for the intensifying guard, the Afghan security forces and the Nigerian threats that we face, but also that we deliver those armed forces,among very manymore examples.Of course, capabilities in the most appropriate ways. GC 31 Defence Review [LORDS] Dental Health: Children GC 32

[EARL HOWE] I no longer need to declare a financial interest, as I The noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, raised the retired from dental practice after about 35 years as a important issue of cyber. He will know that the National national health dentist on the fringe of the City, in Old Cyber Security Strategy was published in the summer Street, now known as the Silicon Valley of London, of 2016. It was largely welcomed at the time. It is being which underwent complete redevelopment of the 200 year- delivered through £1.9 billion of investment in the old small redbrick houses that were there in our day. national cybersecurity programme. Investment from The local residents were not keen on dentists, and that programme is helping the MoD to deliver the new came only when they felt their problems had become cybersecurity operating capability, and a defence cyber urgent. Patients were often not seen until their pain school will open this year. GCHQ and the MoD are had become intolerable, and emergency extractions working in partnership to deliver the national offensive under local anaesthetic were fitted in for them between cyber programme, so that we really do have a world-class appointments—historically, at half a crown a time. offensive cyber capability. Sadly, local parents were unaware of the fact that My noble friend Lord Freeman spoke about supporting permanent teeth, the first molars, erupt behind the the aircraft carriers and asked how we would maintain baby teeth, and sometimes they were so badly decayed both carriers and maintain worldwide reach. I assure before they brought the child to the surgery suffering him that operating both aircraft carriers is affordable. such severe pain that extraction was the only possible Work is being conducted as we speak to plan the most treatment. This was the worst possible start for a effective and coherent way to operate the capability. dentist-patient relationship. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Lee, who asked Children who have regularly attended for dental me about the propulsion systems on the Type 45, I can check-ups or treatment are not upset at the thought of reassure him, I hope, in part, that Project Napier is a dental appointment and have a much better prospect addressing the reliability and resilience issues in the of taking an interest in their dental health throughout Type 45 destroyers. It is a programme that is progressing their lives. The system of school dental check-ups for well and, if I may, I will write to him with further pupils was of value, although one survey established details. that only one-third of those seen and advised to have We cannot and we will not allow the UK’s long-held necessary dental treatment followed that advice. military edge to be eroded, but maintaining our ability Sweets and sugary drinks have always caused damage to meet those global defence needs and contribute to to teeth, and I recall those vicious dummies—or the national security objectives does not mean maintaining comforters, as they were called—filled with sugary the status quo for our Armed Forces. It means upholding syrup, bathing the deciduous baby teeth with that a long tradition of British innovation, harnessing new damaging liquid. Sweets still seem to be blamed for most technologies and techniques. It means reinvigorating dental problems, but I do not intend to spend time on and reinforcing NATO, which maintains the bedrock that aspect today, as I am sure others will. As a of UK defence. It may also mean reprioritising how mother, I know how rapidly sweets become an addiction we allocate our resources to emphasise the most effective for children, and years ago I used to give advice that it capabilities for the world in which we operate. We is the 15 minutes after the sweet that matters, so it may must consider the new threats that we face and the be better for children to have a specific sweet time once new opportunities for modernisation available to us. a week, when they could have as many as they wanted, As the NSCR draws to a close, defence will continue rather than the deceptive “just one” doing damage to ask itself those questions and to build on the firm more often. Sweet drinks including an acidic element foundations that the review has laid down. are a further problem. In 1968, I was the first woman dentist ever appointed 2.52 pm as a member of the Standing Dental Advisory Committee for England and Wales, and I served until 1976. I was Sitting suspended. an elected member of the General Dental Council from 1984 to 1986 and a governor of the Eastman Dental Hospital. I say that simply to make clear that I Dental Health: Children have never had any academic dental role, but was very Question for Short Debate involved as a basic national health practising dentist. In 1988, I had the privilege of joining your Lordships’ 3 pm House. I was particularly interested in the passage of Asked by Baroness Gardner of Parkes the Health and Medicines Act 1988, and I moved Amendment 30 to retain free national health dental To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action examinations for all. Realising that many Members of they are taking to ensure that children receive regular the House might not know much about the workings dental examinations and any necessary treatment. of national health dentistry, the day before the debate I spoke to as many Peers as I could find, asking that Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): My Lords, it they attend and listen to the contributions before seemsappropriatethattheCommitteeshouldbediscussing deciding how to vote. The responses were good and this subject today, as it fits in well with the British the debate was wide-ranging. My dental colleague, Dental Association’s campaign aimed at creating a my noble friend Lord Colwyn, made an excellent greater public awareness of the need to ensure that contribution—I am grateful to him for speaking again children’s teeth receive the necessary care. In my view, today. Other speakers in 1988, the noble Baroness, preventive care is at the forefront of this. Lady Masham, and the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of GC 33 Dental Health: Children [18 JANUARY 2018] Dental Health: Children GC 34

Swindon, were both very supportive in helping to draw successful cities which aim to provide their residents attention to the fact that all forms of health screening with the best possible healthcare. Birmingham has were free for national health patients. The amendment had a fluoridated water supply since the 1960s and to retain free national health dental examinations was Manchester has not. All health conditions in the two carried by 118 to 97, a majority of 21. cities follow similar patterns. The one major exception Following this, the Deputy Chairman of Committees is dental health. DMF in Birmingham is 0.8 and in called Amendment 31 and I intervened to say that he Manchester—where it is the worst—it is 1.3. had told us that if Amendment 30 were agreed to, Last year, I found it very disturbing to read that 31 could not be called. His reply was somewhat revealing: children in Manchester were taking up all general “That is quite right. I was so surprised at the last result”.—[Official anaesthetic beds in order to clear their deciduous Report, 19/7/1988; col. 1239.] teeth. Apart from the pain and discomfort that these Sadly, when this went to the Commons, the amendment children would have suffered to reach this sad dental was reversed by 300 votes to 284 and financial privilege state, it will continue to cause problems, even when was attached, so we were not able to re-debate the those teeth are all out, as the presence of the primary matter. I believe that this was the beginning of the end teeth maintains the space as the jaws enlarge to receive of national health dentistry as we knew it. My husband the larger secondary teeth. Many of the children who did beautiful crown and bridge work and patients have had premature extractions will require lots of would often ask him, “If I paid more, could I get a orthodontics to enable the secondary teeth to come better crown?”. His reply was always, “No, everyone into normal alignment. gets the best crown I can do”. He was a gifted silversmith, My time is limited, so I shall conclude by quoting with his own hallmark and a liveryman of the Worshipful the recent statement from Australia’s National Health Company of Goldsmiths. He was one of many dentists and Medical Research Council following a comprehensive with successful general national health dental practices study which makes clear the optimal and proper level really caring for their patients. of fluoridation for dental benefit without any adverse effect on general health. The statement that the council All national health dental treatment for children up has put out is very strong and, as an Australian, to the age of 18 remains free now, but there are so I think I am entitled to quote it: many areas where there are very limited, if any, national “It shows that community water fluoridation, as it’s used in health dental practices. The children no longer go Australia today, is effective at reducing tooth decay and is not along with their parents and are examined at the same associated with any general negative health effects”. time, as the parents are not going. There are, as I say, The headline states: whole areas where NHS dental practices hardly exist. “With 60 years of data and 3000 studies”— Last year, I was shocked to read that no NHS places for general anaesthetic surgical beds were available in more than considered anywhere else in the world— Manchester, as all were taken by children requiring “Australia declares fluoride ‘completely safe’”. full clearances of their deciduous teeth. I hope that we will really encourage the authorities here to look into this, as it would help children so much. Over some years, I have been asking both Written and Oral Questions on the difference in health patterns between Birmingham and Manchester, and the toothy 3.10 pm answers are referred to as DMF—decayed, missing Lord Colwyn (Con): My Lords, I declare my interests and filled. Birmingham has the best DMF and Manchester as a retired dental surgeon, a fellow of the British the worst. Apart from that—and I emphasise this—there Dental Association and vice-president of the British is no difference in the health pattern. Birmingham has Fluoridation Society. had a fluoridated water supply since the 1960s, so it has certainly been tried and tested over a long period. I thank my dental colleague, my noble friend Lady I emphasise that there is an optimal level which has to Gardner, for securing this debate. This is very timely, be constantly monitored and adjusted by the water considering the extensive coverage that children’s tooth authority by either adding or removing fluoride from extractions received in the media just last weekend. the water supply to maintain this optimal level. This came after the number of youngsters admitted to hospitals to have rotten teeth removed hit a new high. Australia has generally had fluoridated water supplies Despite tooth decay being an almost entirely preventable for many years. I visited a nephew of mine, a Sydney disease, we now see 170 children undergo an unnecessary dentist who looks after the pupils at one of the big general anaesthetic because of it every single day. schools. He told me that he could tell by looking at Such operations have cost the NHS £165 million since their mouths the boys that came from country areas 2012. As someone who performed thousands of tooth where the only water supply was rain water or river extractions under a general anaesthetic in my dental water. There was a markedly worse dental condition in career, I know as well as anyone that the cost of these those not benefiting from the controlled optimal-level procedures goes far beyond the financial impact on fluoridated water supply. Time has moved on and our health service: think of the pain and distress for there are now many fluoride toothpastes which help to the child, the lost sleep and school time, and the stress maintain dental health, but optimal-level fluoridation and time off work for the parents. Children in many of drinking water would be much more effective. parts of the country have to wait up to a year for their For a number of years, I have tabled Questions, operation, and many kids end up spending months usually for Written Answer, to establish the difference and months on painkillers and antibiotics. This really in general health and dental health between Manchester is not good enough in the 21st century in one of the and Birmingham. I have chosen these cities as large richest countries in the world. GC 35 Dental Health: Children [LORDS] Dental Health: Children GC 36

[LORD COLWYN] seeking free help with dental pain at GP surgeries and As the Minister will know, Scotland and Wales have A&E departments, along with an ever-increasing bill achieved unprecedented improvements in their child for children’s hospital tooth extractions. oral health outcomes in recent years by introducing Finally, I should like yet again to point out to the the pioneering national programmes, Childsmile and Committee that a cost-effective way of improving Designed to Smile. The British Dental Association has outcomes and reducing oral health inequalities is the been calling for England to follow in the devolved wider use of water fluoridation. Colleagues will know Governments’footsteps for years so that English children that I have favoured this solution for many years, and can benefit from these simple, tried-and-tested solutions. we have heard about it from my noble friend Lady Dentists welcomed the first step made in England Gardner. The evidence for fluoridating water supplies with the recently launched Starting Well programme, is indisputable. It is safe and good for teeth, particularly but I share the BDA’s concerns that this new scheme is in childhood. While the ultimate decision on whether currently limited to some 13 local authorities in England. to introduce fluoride into the water supply lies with I understand that in London only 12 practices in local authorities, central government could do much Ealing are taking part in the scheme. This is in the more to facilitate local conversations about this and context of well over 4,000 national dentists practising assist those councils which think that this is a measure in the capital. So, although the scheme will reach some that would work well in their area. I know that the children in the areas with the worst outcomes, there Minister will have heard all these arguments before, will still be millions of others across England who will but I hope that she will take them on board and pass miss out. Will the Government look into expanding them on to her colleagues in the department. Child the scheme beyond the 13 initial sites so that more tooth decay is preventable and it is high time that we children in England can benefit from it? started doing a better job of preventing it. The other scheme that has recently started is Dental Check by One, which is being championed by the 3.16 pm British Society of Paediatric Dentistry and is supported Baroness Benjamin (LD): My Lords, 15 years ago, by the Chief Dental Officer. As the name suggests, the as I sat in the dentist’s chair for my annual check-up, scheme aims to ensure that young children are taken my dentist said despondently that the patient before to see a dentist before their first birthday. This is me had been a three year-old whose teeth he had important so that the child becomes comfortable in a extracted. Today this is not an out of the ordinary dental environment from an early age and so that occurrence among children across the country.Children’s parents can be given advice on how to take care of oral health has become a major public health issue, so their offspring’s teeth. If a child’s first visit to a dental I congratulate the noble Baroness on securing this practice is traumatic—if they need a filling or an important debate. extraction—in many cases this will deter them from As we have heard, 90% of child tooth decay is going to the dentist later in life. Therefore, it is crucial preventable, but it is an issue that affects 25% of five that their first check-up is a positive experience. With year-olds across England, and in some parts of the just 20% of children under the age of two having country it rises to more than 50%. Last year nearly been to the dentist in the last year, it is certainly 43,000 hospital operations were carried out to remove important that we raise awareness among parents of teeth in children and teenagers, which is equivalent to the importance of taking them as soon as their first 170 operations a day. The excessive consumption of teeth come through. However, we need to remember sugary food and drinks combined with poor oral that the total amount of NHS dentistry commissioned hygiene is a major cause behind these cases. in England is limited, and in fact NHS England Good oral health can help children to be more commissions only enough of it to cover just over half confident and perform better at school, and it can the population. In many areas of the country, people make a significant difference to their long-term oral are still struggling to find a dentist who is able to see health. Children with high levels of disease in their new NHS patients. primary teeth run an increased risk of developing According to a recent study by the BBC, 48% of disease in their permanent teeth, so addressing this NHS practices in England are not accepting new adult issue early can make a real difference to children’s patients while 40% are not accepting new child patients. lives. Visiting a dentist on a regular basis is essential to Saying that all parents should take their children to maintaining good oral health. It helps to ensure that the dentist as soon as their teeth erupt is a great idea, oral health problems are identified at an early stage but it will not become a reality until the Government and is an opportunity for dentists to provide advice to ensure that enough NHS dentistry is commissioned parents and children about maintaining a good oral care for those who need it. routine and managing their diet. However, the statistics It is important that any national preventive programme around dentist attendance are concerning. Many children is properly and sustainably funded. I understand that aged between nought and 17 never see an NHS dentist. the Starting Well initiative will not be receiving any This is despite Public Health England’s advice that new funds, with all the money coming from existing children should start having dental check-ups when dental budgets. Underfunding NHS dental services is their first teeth appear, normally at around six months. similarly pointless. NHS dental budgets have gone What can we do to improve this situation? The first down in real terms by 15% in the past seven years thing is to get the message out as widely as possible while patient charges have been going up at an inflation- that not only should children be visiting the dentist busting pace. The effect is that every year hundreds of but, crucially, NHS dental treatment is free for all thousands of patients waste precious NHS resources children under the age of 18. Equally, if we are GC 37 Dental Health: Children [18 JANUARY 2018] Dental Health: Children GC 38 encouraging parents to take their children to the dentist particularly where young people are a captive audience regularly,we must ensure that dental practices themselves at popular programme times. Good advertising would are welcoming, friendly places where parents feel certainly help to promote the importance of good oral comfortable. The oral heath profession has to play its hygiene and support lots of winning smiles. role too. To tackle the problem of child tooth decay, I welcome the improvement in children’s oral health everyone needs to work together: health visitors,midwives, over the past 20 years, but, unfortunately, 12% of community nurses, early years workers, pharmacists three year-olds still experience tooth decay. We know and others all have the opportunity to engage with all too well that dental decay is the top cause of children and their parents. It is essential that they all childhood hospital admission for five to nine year-olds, provide consistent and accurate advice about maintaining with hospital trusts now spending £35 million on good oral health. extractions of multiple teeth for the under-18s. It is a Among others, the Faculty of Dental Surgery has massive cost to the NHS. To put it in context, twice as called for oral health to be included in health workers’ many under-10s have to have extractions as young training and professional development. This is not people who break their arms—that speaks volumes. about training health visitors to be dentists, but about Significant oral health inequalities continue to exist enabling them to identify signs that a child may have for children who live in deprived communities when an oral health problem and to signpost them to further compared with those who live in affluent areas, and help. Perhaps the Minister can indicate what the this must be addressed. I highlight also those children Government are doing to ensure that the public health with disabilities, who have even poorer outcomes. workforce is properly trained in the importance of Unfortunately, young children who have to undergo oral health and how they can support children and tooth extraction, and those with high levels of disease, parents in maintaining it. have an increased risk of disease in their permanent We need also to address the variation in dental teeth. Local authorities are now responsible for access across the country. Last year, the media reported commissioning public health services for children and on the difficulty that people in some areas have in young people, and have the power to consult on proposals, accessing treatment—areas such as Cornwall, where more such as water fluoridation schemes and intervention. than 14,000 people are on a waiting list to register with That does not require behaviour change by individuals, an NHS dental practice. While NHS dental treatment and as such, choice should be offered. is free for children, if parents themselves do not go to the dentist, for whatever reason, this can be a significant What can be done to improve children’s dental barrier to children’s attendance. attendance? An important strand must be to work Public Health England has given direction on a with and support external partners collectively in continual range of evidence-based oral health activities that preventive care, especially for looked-after children local authorities should be implementing, as demonstrated and children from families living in poverty. It is vital in Scotland’sChildsmile initiative. However,there appears to raise awareness of the fact that children should visit to be limited national momentum to ensure that all the dentist at least once a year and to make sure that LGAs are undertaking their responsibility for child oral everybody realises that it is free and that children health and prevention. What action are the Government should have check-ups in the first 12 months of life. In taking to ensure that all LGAs are actively implementing particular, I refer to the new “Dental Check by One” Public Health England’s recommendations at local level? campaign, which should have more widespread and How many LGAs have sustained programmes for prominent advertising. tooth brushing and toothpaste distribution, community- Close ties with primary and secondary schools are based fluoride varnish programmes and supervised vital. They should promote good oral health and tooth brushing in nurseries? What are the Government’s highlight any issues around reducing sugar consumption plans to improve oral health education so that parents in food, snacks, drinks, energy drinks and fruit juices. and children understand the impact of sugar on teeth It is estimated that children consume around three and the importance of a good oral health regime? times more sugar than the recommended maximum The good news is that child tooth decay is a problem amount. Importantly, teenagers have the highest intake we can all solve, if we work together and get simple of all age groups, consuming some 50% more sugar on things right to prevent the appalling suffering, anguish, average. For awareness, surely clear teaspoon labelling loss of school time, depression and unnecessary pain is needed from our manufacturers, who we hope will that children are going through today. come forward in support and give a real step change to their packaging. 3.22 pm The Government have set out a pilot scheme in Baroness Redfern (Con): My Lords, I thank my 75 practices, looking at incentivising care, but many noble friend Lady Gardner for bringing this debate to families wish to see a much bigger and quicker rollout, the Grand Committee today. I am pleased to have the together with a hard-hitting media and advertising opportunity to speak on the important issue of children’s campaign that does not only focus on oral health, but oral health. I refer to my interests as listed in the targets the obesity challenge. Both of those represent register of interests. major public issues facing the UK, which could be Looking back over a number of years, I see that incorporated into a coherent national strategy. attention has continued to be drawn to the impact of I want to take the opportunity to thank the Minister, sugar on children’s oral health, together with the the noble Lord, Lord O’Shaughnessy—who is not interlinked growing problem of obesity facing our here today—for answering my Written Question on young children. I wish to take up the issue of advertising, what plans there are to introduce new initiatives to GC 39 Dental Health: Children [LORDS] Dental Health: Children GC 40

[BARONESS REDFERN] checked for various health issues before they go to the improve dental health in areas of deprivation. I thank Games,my teeth were never looked at. What consideration him for his reply, referring to the “Starting Well” has been given, beyond the soft drinks levy, to whether programme. I wonder whether the noble Baroness, the children should be allowed to purchase energy drinks, Minister, has any information to hand with the latest and what encouragement could be given to help them number of dental practices now wishing to join that to understand the products they contain? programme. The figures on the number of children going into Finally, even now, it is sad that 41.5% of children hospital for extractions are, quite frankly,shocking—not aged nought to 17 did not visit an NHS dentist in the just because of the numbers, but the cost that has on 12 months up to 30 September 2017 and 78.7% of the NHS and the long-term impact on children’s health. children aged between one and two did not visit a It is not just about cleaning your teeth or going to the dentist. As I referred to earlier, in 2015-16, the cost to dentist; it is also about what you consume. I am very the NHS of tooth extractions in young children aged supportive of the Government’s childhood obesity nought to 19 was £50.5 million; that amount must be strategy and the soft drinks levy. It could be incredibly reduced as quickly as possible. I hope therefore that useful, but many companies are changing their the Government will consider investing more—not products to just go under the limit of what they would only in prevention, but in earlier intervention. be taxed on. In a chance discussion, a friend who is a governor 3.28 pm of a primary school said that they have a large number Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB): My Lords, I thank of children on free school meals. More than 15% of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, for children in state schools are eligible for free school tabling the debate. I have a number of interests to meals. When they introduced a breakfast club to increase declare: I am a vice-president of the Local Government attendance, they found virtually all those children had Association; I am the chair of ukactive; and last year very poor oral health. Now they fundraise to buy I published a report on duty of care in sport, which I toothbrushes to keep in school, so children clean their was asked to complete by the right honourable Tracey teeth after the free breakfast, and they also encourage Crouch MP, the Minister for Sport in another place, them to clean them at lunch time. where oral health was reported to me from several We also need to think about children’s activity. If different groups of people.I also spoke at a periodontology you are eating a poor diet and drinking too many fizzy conference last year, as declared on my entry in the drinks, you are not going have the energy to be active. register of interests, where I met Professor Ian Needleman This has a huge impact on our children’s health. I from UCL. That sparked an interesting conversation would like to draw your Lordships’ attention to about the oral health of athletes, which led me to the research on what happens during school holidays. consider the wider impact it could have on the future For children on free school meals, many do not eat in of elite sport. In my personal experience—without the summer holidays. It is also very easy to eat a poor going into too much detail—I found it hard to eat or diet of pre-prepared meals, which can be high in sugar tolerate any food in my stomach on race days, so I or salt, or to eat fast food. A charity called StreetGames travelled everywhere with a toothbrush. It was not has set up a programme called Fit and Fed, which always possible to clean my teeth after I had been sick; ensures that children have access not only to activity my teeth show signs of decay because of that. but to free, nutritious meals. I chair ukactive, which Every major Games I have attended has a polyclinic, has produced research showing that, in the summer which includes doctors, opticians and dentists. At the break, there is a much greater divide between the London Games, the polyclinic was designed and built fitness levels of children from poorer socio-economic to treat 200 athletes a day; from seven in the morning backgrounds and those who are more affluent. The to 11 at night, it was full. In 2012, it had 3,220 poorest 25% of primary school children experience a “encounters” with athletes. The biggest proportion— drop in their fitness levels 18 times greater than the 52%—of those were for musculoskeletal issues, but richest 25%. So it is not just oral health—it is what we second on the list was dental issues, which affected eat and what we drink—and ukactive is working with 30% of athletes. That number is very similar to previous partners to open up dozens of school sites across the Games, as well as Rio 2016. In their research study, country this summer to address issues of inactivity Needleman et al found that 300 athletes showed high among children. We are also going to be looking at levels of disease, and 20% reported that this had had a how we can educate children on oral health serious negative impact on training or performance. It The inactivity crisis that we are facing, coupled is often assumed that athletes will be at the peak of with things like poor oral health, is significantly limiting physical fitness, so those numbers are quite shocking. our children’s opportunities. I realise that the things I In this context, future consideration needs to be given have talked about this afternoon cut across a number to the consumption of sports or energy drinks, gels of government departments, and many issues are for and other products which are invaluable for athletes in other Ministers, but this is an important area where training, but come with unforeseen consequences. As cross-government work is vital. an older athlete on a programme, you may get advice on what to use, but as a young person you may not. 3.33 pm There are some sports programmes that have quite Lord Storey (LD): My Lords, I thank the noble young athletes and I wonder whether lessons on oral Baroness, Lady Gardner, for securing this important health should be specifically included in the induction debate. I declare an interest as a vice-president of the process for young athletes. While lots of athletes are Local Government Association. GC 41 Dental Health: Children [18 JANUARY 2018] Dental Health: Children GC 42

Many of us, though not all, will be in the fortunate procedure. In financial terms, the cost of what is a position of having to clean some, if not all, of our major operation is considerable, and inevitably takes teeth. One of the incentives to look after my teeth was scarce resources away from surgery that is less avoidable. the unwelcome annual inspection at school by the We all know how difficult it is for adults to get on local authority dentist. I remember that, at the end of the list for an NHS dentist in some areas, and how the day, the school secretary would come in and give many adults end up paying for regular check-ups, or out forms to every child who needed some dental paying the price for not having them. What we do attention. The parents of those unlucky enough to be know is that many parents do not seem to be aware given a form had two options: one, to agree to an that dental care, as my noble friend Lady Benjamin appointment with the school dentist; two, to undertake said, is free for children and that although 60% of to take the child to their own NHS dentist. In the practices accept children, 40% do not—40%. 1950s, not sending the form back was not an option. We are always asking today how we can reduce Of course, in the 1950s, with sweets still rationed and pressures on the NHS. Tooth decay is the leading ice cream soda a rare treat, teeth were under less threat reason for hospital admissions of young children and than today. the most preventable. Dealing with this issue would I lived, as did many of us, in a relatively golden age help to relieve those pressures on the NHS. I hope that of dentistry, where it was universal and free at the as a result of this really important debate, the Government point of delivery.My own parents prioritised toothbrushes might come forward with some new initiatives which and toothpaste. In England today, there are many will deal once and for all with the problem of young gaps in the availability of National Health Service children and teeth. dentists which need to be filled and, in the absence of any regular school inspections, many children and young people are unaware of the state of their teeth 3.39 pm until toothache demands the attention of a dentist. Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords, like the noble Of course, many parents ensure that their children Lord, Lord Storey, I recall school dentists, and indeed take care of their teeth through regular brushing and our family dentist, who went by the wonderful name taking care with their diet. They make sure that, for of Mr Slaughter. example, their children’steeth are not regularly submerged At this point in this excellent short debate, the in fizzy drinks or coated with chocolate. However, the awful facts about the state of our children’s teeth in rise in the need for very young children to have all or England have been laid before all of us, including the some of their milk teeth extracted has a range of very Minister, who I think, like me, must be hanging her heavy costs, both in human and financial terms. head with shame that we are failing our children on Many Members will recall when Margaret Thatcher such a scale. The fact that so many youngsters suffer removed free school milk in 1971, earning, sadly, the from tooth decay and that so many require extractions title “Milk Snatcher”. This policy was eventually reversed at such a young age is a badge of dishonour for our and, today, every child under five is entitled to free health service and for our Ministers. We have failed to milk. When we had a similar debate last year, the then confront a wholly preventable disease. Education Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Nash, said This is not only a childhood problem. We are that he would look into whether we could provide free condemning a generation of children to reach adulthood school milk for all primary school children, and there feeling self-conscious and inhibited by the state of was a large article in the Telegraph. Could the Minister their teeth. That will certainly affect their social relations tell us where we are up to with the thoughts of the and indeed could affect their job prospects. The evidence noble Lord, Lord Nash, on free school milk for every suggests that for far too long the Government have primary school child? tended to view oral health as an optional extra. For The area I live in, the north-west, has some of the the children lining up for tooth extractions in our highest rates of tooth decay. About 15 years ago, my hospitals, tooth decay has long-term consequences. local authority decided to introduce what is called Whether they grow up to become solicitors, receptionists, dental milk, where a medically correct amount of hairdressers, footballers or whatever, the state of their fluoride is put in the milk. Parents had the choice of mouths can affect their life chances. In June 2016, a their child having a carton of dental milk or a carton YouGov poll for the British Dental Association revealed of ordinary milk. The parents of 99% of the children that 77% of respondents felt that decayed teeth or bad in my school chose the dental milk. I think 10 local breath would hinder a candidate’s chances of securing authorities introduced it. When replying, could the employment in public or client-facing roles, while 62% felt Minister tell us whether any evaluation has been that applicants with visibly decayed teeth, missing undertaken of the dental milk project and where we teeth or bad breath would be disadvantaged in securing are up to on its development? I listened to the noble any role and it would hinder their promotion prospects. Baroness, Lady Gardner, talk about fluoride in the The inequalities in tooth decay are stark. For five water supply, and this might be another initiative that year-olds in the most deprived areas such as Blackburn we might look at to help prevent dental decay in our and Darwen, 56% have tooth decay. They are almost children. seven times more likely to have decay in their teeth It is difficult to imagine how awful it must be for a than their peers in, for example, Jeremy Hunt’s two year-old to suffer the trauma of hospital admission, constituency in Waverley, where the rate is 8%. Children general anaesthesia and the extraction of their teeth. from lower income families are much more likely to The parents will also pay a heavy emotional price as have dental disease than other children of the same they support their child before, during and after the age. At five years old, 21% of children who receive free GC 43 Dental Health: Children [LORDS] Dental Health: Children GC 44

[BARONESS THORNTON] I congratulate my noble friend on securing time for school meals will have dental decay, while the rate is this important debate today, and I am pleased to have 11% among all other children; yet according to the the opportunity to talk about what the Government Royal College of Surgeons,tooth decayis 90% preventable. will do in this area. We all recognise that poor oral I know that the Minister will tell us about the health for children can have a devastating impact on a Government’s new preventive oral health initiative child’s quality of life. known as Starting Well, but I have to say that when I We need to keep in mind that, overall, children’s look at the details of the programme, I cannot see how oral health is better than it has ever been, with the it will have the same impact that the campaigns being most recent data from 2015 showing that 75% of five run in Wales and Scotland are having. They are leading year-old children in England are now decay free. Between the way on improving child oral health with their early 2008 and 2012, the number of five year-old children intervention prevention initiatives known as Designed who showed signs of decay fell by approximately 10%. to Smile and Childsmile. They have led to unprecedented This is fantastic progress, but it still leaves 25% of improvements in outcomes over recent years. If one five year-old children experiencing decay, which is were being really unkind, one might even suggest that unacceptable. As was said by my noble friends Lord the Government scheme looks a bit like window dressing. Colwyn and Lady Gardner of Parkes and the noble I have some questions for the Minister and I want Baroness,Lady Thornton, one child needing to have tooth to echo some of the remarks made by the noble Lord, extractions under general anaesthetic due to poor oral Lord Colwyn. Why is this scheme being limited to health is one child too many. This is why improving 13 local authorities? Why is it being funded from children’s oral health is a priority for this Government. within existing dental spend when we know that dentistry The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, said that the is chronically underfunded, down 15% since 2010-11? Government do not feel dentistry to be important. Why has no new money been found when we can all However, our manifesto made clear our commitment see that that expenditure would fall squarely within to support NHS dentistry, improve coverage and achieve the invest-to-save category? Can the Minister confirm better outcomes, especially for deprived children. that what the Government are doing is asking dental The key issue now for child oral health is that of surgeries in these local authorities to volunteer to take inequality, as the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, part in this scheme? Is that an effective way to proceed? mentioned. Active dental disease is now clustered in Is there a plan or a budget for a wider rollout of the deprived groups and areas. Dentists can and do play scheme? If there is, when will that happen, and if there an important role in improving oral health, but patients is not, why not? Lastly, what else is there? understanding the wider issues involved—from diet Fluoridation needs to be made easier. It has been and good oral hygiene to the role that fluoride can mentioned by several speakers in the debate, who have play—is crucial to progress. been quite right to say that it is a cost-effective public The good news is that a good diet and good oral health initiative. I feel that I have to say that, not only hygiene, together with regular visits to the dentist and because other noble Lords have mentioned it but access to clinically proven prevention measures such because my noble friend Lord Hunt is so passionate as fluoride, go a long way to eliminating dental disease. about this matter—he would not forgive me if I did The bad news is that, as we all know, the issues not mention fluoridation. surrounding children’s poor oral health are complex, Reducing children’s sugar consumption is of course and this means that there is no easy or quick fix for those crucial. The average five year-old consumes their currently left behind. own weight in sugar every year. While the soft drinks Dentists have a vital role to play in providing regular industry levy is a welcome first step, we need the check-ups for children, giving important messages to Government to take much more decisive action in this parents about self-care at home and providing evidence- area, particularly around advertising, marketing and based interventions, such as fluoride varnish applications, price promotions involving high-sugar products. New alongside any necessary treatment. Delivering Better restrictions should be introduced on advertising high-sugar Oral Health, Public Health England’s key guidance to products before the 9 pm watershed on television and dentists, is clear on the need for regular applications of online, something which we on this side have pledged fluoride varnish for all children at recommended intervals. to do. Would the Minister like to take this opportunity I am delighted that, in 2016-17, 4.7 million children to pledge to do the same? had courses of treatment for fluoride varnish applications, a 13.9% increase on the previous year. Fluoride varnish I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, applications now equate to 41.2% of all child treatments, on tabling this important debate and I commend her making them the most common dental treatment for for her persistence over many years in these matters. I children. thank all other speakers and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s remarks in response to the debate. Every noble Lord who spoke today talked about fluoridation in the water. The clinical case for fluoride’s effect on oral health and the benefits of water fluoridation 3.45 pm is substantial. The Government and Public Health Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con): I apologise at England would warmly welcome a decision by a local the beginning for the fact that I will have to speak area to fluoridate the water supply. However, such quite fast because I do not have very long and have decisions must be made locally. Local authorities were quite a lot to say. I do not want people to think that I given responsibility for water fluoridation in the Health am galloping through it because I am not interested in and Social Care Act 2012. Given the level of debate what I am saying—I am. that water fluoridation has historically aroused, unlike GC 45 Dental Health: Children [18 JANUARY 2018] Dental Health: Children GC 46 fluoride toothpaste or varnish, it is important that anywhere in the country where local commissioners there is clear local ownership of decisions. However, decide it is needed. I understand that this offer will be the case continues to be made by Public Health England made available to commissioners by NHS England that we want as many local areas as possible to make later this year. It will bring to a wider audience the key sure that it happens. Water fluoridation benefits the message that I know the Chief Dental Officer passionately overall oral health of the population. NHS England champions—the importance of starting oral health already bears the cost of delivering fluoride where this care and dental attendance as young as possible. is done through a dental intervention such as applying Ensuring access to dental services and treatment is fluoride to teeth, and there are no plans for the costs the responsibility of NHS England. However, it is of water fluoridation to be met centrally. important also to talk about the role of Public Health Turningtotheissueof accesstoadentist,NHSEngland England in improving children’soral health more generally. commissions primary dental services and has a duty to This area of public health is very much a priority for commission services to meet local need. In the 12-month Public Health England. The noble Baroness, Lady period ending 30 September 2017, 6.8 million children Grey-Thompson, talked about a joined-up approach were seen. This equates to 58.8% of the child population. to dentistry and other areas, and the noble Baroness, We appreciate that some areas have access difficulties, Lady Benjamin, talked about the LGA implementing even for children. I know that NHS England is committed Public Health England’srecommendations.Public Health to improving the commissioning of primary care England has established the Children’s Oral Health dentistry within the overall vision of the five-year Improvement Programme Board, which brings together forward view. a wide range of stakeholders and has an extensive I want to mention some of the specific actions work programme. Public Health England, through the being taken to improve access and the care that dentists board, co-ordinates all the work being taken forward can give patients once seen. We are committed to across the system on improving child oral health. One introducing a new NHS dental contract, which will of the outputs has been the updating of the “red book” improve the oral health of the population and further to ensure that all new parents receive clear messages increase access to NHS dentistry.Seventy-five high-street about the importance of good oral hygiene and early practices continue to test a prevention-focused clinical dental attendance. pathway, which includes offering all patients an oral Manynoble Lords have spoken about sugar.Prevention health assessment and advice on diet and good oral is a key part of the work that Public Health England hygiene. Follow-up appointments are offered where leads. Diet is very important—particularly sugar intake, necessary to support patients’ self-care and carry out which is the leading cause of dental decay. The sugar any necessary preventive treatments. levy and the sugar reformulation programme are therefore The new approach aims to increase patient access very important in improving oral health, as well as by paying dentists for the number of patients cared having an impact on the wider issues of obesity. for, not just for the treatment delivered, as per the Following on from that, the noble Baroness, Lady current contract. It is important to be clear that the Grey-Thompson, mentioned energy drinks and the scheme will have to demonstrate that it can maintain problems that athletes have had. As we know, energy access and improve oral health, including that of drinks can be high in caffeine and sugar. Alongside children, in a way that is sustainable for practices, our measures to reduce sugar, we will continue to patients and NHS commissioners before any decision monitor the situation and look at any emerging scientific will be taken on a wider national rollout. evidence on the consumption of energy drinks. I hear My noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes talked what the noble Baroness says. As I said, we will about children not attending dentists, and my noble monitor this. Since we published the plan on the sugar friend Lord Colwyn, the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, levy, there has been real progress. The levy has become and many others mentioned the Scottish initiative. law and will come into effect in April 2018. Public However, I would like to talk about the wider reform Health England has formulated a comprehensive sugar of the current approach. NHS England is developing reduction programme with the aim of a 20% reduction schemes focused specifically on children in areas of in sugar in key foods. high dental need. My noble friend Lady Redfern talked about what As it has already been mentioned in the debate, I am schools can do. We expect all schools to have healthy sure that many here are familiar with the Starting Well eating policies. The noble Lord, Lord Storey, talked programme. Noble Lords seem to feel that it will not about milk in schools. Although nutrients in milk are be sufficient, but it is aiming to improve oral health useful for healthy teeth, milk does not per se improve outcomes for young children in deprived areas. The teeth, and calcium, which is needed for healthy growth programme will work in 13 high-priority areas, with in teeth and bones, can be found in a number of foods. the aim of increasing the provision of evidence-based However, poor diet is a key risk factor of poor dental advice and interventions for all children under the age health, and all children are encouraged to reduce their of five, but especially for those who do not regularly intake of free sugars. Milk is a safe alternative to sugar visit a dentist. This will, where appropriate, include and sweetened drinks, is safe for children’s teeth and is outreach to children not currently in touch with dental recommended for delivering better oral health in the practices. evidence-based toolkit for prevention. Alongside that, NHS England is also developing a complementary Starting Well core offer. This is a Lord Storey: If the Minister does not have the commissioning approach designed to facilitate increased information about dental milk, could she write to me access and early preventive care for young children about it? GC 47 Dental Health: Children [LORDS] MV “Empire Windrush” GC 48

Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen: I will write to the 108 passengers, and on 21 December 1947 the noble Lord on that. “Almanzora” docked in Southampton. But to quote I have only a minute to go, which is a nightmare. the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, in his book Never The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, talked about the Again, speaking of the arrival of the “Windrush” on Starting Well programme. The overall aim of Starting 22 June 1948, Well is to reduce oral health inequalities. The programme “the great wave of post-war migration from the Caribbean to the will operate in 13 identified high-priority areas and United Kingdom can symbolically be said to have begun with will be funded through expected dental underspends. that fateful voyage. The history of the black diaspora in Britain NHS England launched the programme in September begins here”. 2017 with a series of events around the country attended In 1948, the non-white population was about 30,000 by 158 dental practice teams. Practices have been of a population of about 50 million, mainly in port applying to join the programme, and over £3 million cities of Liverpool, Cardiff and London. Just over of funding has been agreed locally to support it to date. 1,000 followed the 393 of the “Windrush”, and in My noble friends Lady Redfern and Lord Colwyn 1951 it was 2,200. In the 1950s, 250,000 migrants had talked about the fact that only 20% of two year-olds come from the Caribbean and, by 1962, the non-white are being seen by dentists. Public Health England population was 500,000—mainly Caribbean, Indian recommend early attendance, as well as an appropriate and Pakistani. Three-fifths of that number were diet and strong oral health hygiene as the foundation Caribbean. While the British Nationality Act was of oral health. This message is being given to parents being considered as the “Windrush” landed, that huge at the very start of their children’s lives through the migration was more due to the economic situation in personal child health record. the West Indies, the 1944 hurricane and the United I feel that I have left several questions out and, if I States passing legislation restricting migration from have, of course will write to noble Lords. In conclusion, the Caribbean. However, I would go further than the I hope that I have demonstrated our strong commitment noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, who speaks of the history to improving oral health outcomes for children and of black diaspora beginning with this voyage. It is the ensuring that children have access to dental services history of modern, multi-racial Britain that begins and important preventive advice. Please let us carry on here—or, as the title of a book by Mike and Trevor talking about this, including outside the Chamber, Phillips puts it, Windrush: The Irresistible Rise of when I have all the time in the world. Multi-Racial Britain. This was a seminal event in our modern history. Of 3.58 pm course, black populations had settled here after the First World War, so when the recent film “Darkest Sitting suspended. Hour” depicts the Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, speaking to ordinary people on the Tube, which may MV “Empire Windrush” not be accurate, an educated West Indian migrant Question for Short Debate quoting Shakespeare to the Prime Minister could very well be. Little did I know when I moved to Clapham 4 pm last year that for a few weeks underneath Clapham Common, in the deep shelter, many of the passengers Asked by Baroness Berridge of “MV Windrush” slept their first nights. Within To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans three weeks, they all had jobs, and they had settled they have to celebrate the 70th anniversary of the around Brixton, as on Coldharbour Lane was the arrival of MV Empire Windrush. nearest labour exchange. They had fought for Britain, for the motherland, and they now arrived to rebuild Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, I thank all Britain. noble Lords for contributing this afternoon. The Times This was the first mass, visible migration to the newspaper of 24 May 1948 carried the news of Princess United Kingdom, which is what differentiates it from Elizabeth’s visit to Coventry, Winston Churchill’s jeep the previous Irish and Jewish migration. While of overturning in a mishap, and an aircraft crashing on course these groups faced prejudices, this migration to the main road from Margate to London. There was was to introduce Britons to race relations. Today, a news story about Commonwealth citizens,as Parliament 15% of the UK population are black and minority had been considering what was to become the British ethnic, and “Windrush” is for many of them seen as Nationality Act, but the Times failed to record that their beginning. That is why a model of the ship was this was the day when the MV “Empire Windrush” left part of the wonderful opening ceremony to the 2012 Jamaica for the United Kingdom with 493 passengers, Olympics, as it has shaped modern Britain—a modern who had paid 28 pounds and 10 shillings for the Britain that, in the 1980s, looked so very different to a one-way fare to move to the United Kingdom to work. young girl peering out of the car window when being Britain was about to change permanently and change driven through Highfields in Leicester from monocultural for the better. Rutland to get my school shoes. Notting Hill would Some of the passengers were, of course, former not be the same without the annual Trinidadian-inspired servicemen who had been part of the 8,000 volunteers carnival, and it saddens me that this street festival is from the West Indies who served in World War II and not viewed with the same generosity as festivals such had been stationed in the UK. The “Windrush” was as Glastonbury. Having lived in both Ghana and not in fact the first vessel to come, as in March 1947 Trinidad and Tobago, Britain’s diaspora means for me the “Ormonde” sailed from Jamaica to Liverpool with that these experiences are now not only in photographs GC 49 MV “Empire Windrush” [18 JANUARY 2018] MV “Empire Windrush” GC 50 but part of my everyday story. Who we are as Britons convene other interested people, including those from has and will continue to change, but “Windrush” is the British Caribbean population, to hear what events indeed something that needs to be celebrated. they would like this year and whether they agree that I have learned so much from Britain’sblack community, some enduring, permanent recognition is needed of in particular their gracious response to suffering, Windrush Day? oppression and, still too often today, racism. For what they found in 1948 was not a motherland ready to 4.09 pm receive a child from far away, but rejection, mistrust, loneliness and, all too often, violence. I am aware that Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab): My Lords, I many in your Lordships’ House can describe these congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, on experiences from a personal perspective, but of all that securing this debate and on her excellent speech, every I have watched and listened to in preparing for today’s word of which I agreed with. I am delighted to pay my debate, this quote from Ben Bousquet has struck me. tribute to our friends from Jamaica and other parts of In 1957, he was followed by the BBC’s “Tonight” the West Indies who chose to make their home in the programme in his vain search for lodgings. This was United Kingdom, and to thank them, their children the first programme on race relations on British television. and their grandchildren for the huge contribution that He said: “It was an age of tremendous cruelty to black they have made to the well-being and enrichment of people—it was an unforgiving time”. That last phrase our nation. We think particularly of nurses in hospitals, struck me, and I am so pleased to see the right reverend staff on our public transport and in all our public Prelate the Bishop of St Albans among today’s speakers, services, artists and musicians, high-achieving sports as David Goodhart, in his book The British Dream men and women, and, more recently, trade union writes: leaders and Members in the House of Commons and “Many churches, even, closed their doors to these often piously this House. It is a privilege to share the speakers list Christian people, who had to set up their own black churches—a this afternoon with such distinguished Members of this lost opportunity to reverse the slow decline of the Anglican House, particularly those with Caribbean origin. My Church”. noble friend Lady Lawrence of Clarendon had hoped There are of course exceptions, such as the Speaker’s to take part, but has been prevented from doing so by Chaplain, the reverend Dr Rose Hudson-Wilkin, but a church commitment. mainly Caribbean migrants set up their own churches, Alongside so much good will and positive feeling such as Bishop John Francis, who founded Ruach towards people whose origins are in the Caribbean, I Ministries in Brixton, where thousands have attended. hope I may be forgiven for striking a slightly discordant Many people today in the United Kingdom are note by raising the question of how the Home Office is unaware of this cruelty,so celebrating such an anniversary treating a number of long-settled, retirement-age UK is also about teaching people about the past. A few residents of Caribbean origin. One particular case—there years ago, I attended the reopening of a black-led are others—is that of a 61 year-old lady, called Paulette church in Lozells in Birmingham. During the Wilson, who lives in Wolverhampton. She came to refurbishment period the congregation had met in the Britain from Jamaica in 1968 and was initially looked local girls grammar school, so the headmistress—a after by her grandparents. She went to primary and lady in her late 50s, looking to me rather like Miss Jean secondary school and has a British daughter and Brodie—took the opportunity to speak when presented grandchild. She worked and paid taxes here for most with her bouquet. With tears in her eyes, she asked for of her life, and at one stage she worked as a cook in the forgiveness. She said she was so sorry and had not House of Commons. realised that people had not been welcomed by the Under the terms of the 1971 Immigration Act, all Church of England and so had formed churches such Commonwealth citizens living in the UK were given as this. indefinite leave to remain. Paulette Wilson never applied After such treatment, the lack of representation of for a passport because she assumed she would not the leadership of this community in your Lordships’ need one if she did not intend to travel abroad. One House, compared with 30 Anglicans, is most troubling day, she got a letter from the Home Office telling her and is a matter that the Prime Minister could look at to register each month at the Solihull immigration in the run-up to this anniversary. But in addition to centre. While she was there on a visit, officials declared forgiveness, there needs to be restoration, so that we that she was an illegal immigrant, had her carted off can truly celebrate this moment when modern multiracial to the appalling Yarl’s Wood immigration removal Britain began. I ask Her Majesty’s Government to complex and told her that she would be deported— consider how to provide a permanent marker in central presumably back to Jamaica, which she had not visited London to celebrate such a significant day and event, since she left as a child almost 50 years before.Fortunately, especially as we are talking about celebrating the Paulette’s MP—Emma Reynolds—and the Refugee arrival of a boat while metres away from the Thames. I and Migrant Centre in Wolverhampton both intervened. am aware that the Government take the view that if At last, she has now been given leave to remain, the public want such a reminder, they should raise the although she has lost benefits for the past two years, as funds, but I hope that there are central government well as her flat, and has to rely on financial support funds to support events this year. from her daughter. I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for Similar cases recently reported in the media include taking the lead on this anniversary and for my recent that of Anthony Bryan, a 60 year-old painter and meeting with him, together with the noble Baroness, decorator who has lived in Britain since he arrived Lady Benjamin. Will he agree to reach out to and from Jamaica as an eight year-old child. He was also GC 51 MV “Empire Windrush” [LORDS] MV “Empire Windrush” GC 52

[LORD FAULKNER OF WORCESTER] and political life of the community.Caribbean migrants, declared an illegal immigrant and sent to a detention followed by Asian groups, retain their identities to a centre. Home Office staff went as far as booking him greater extent. on a flight to Jamaica, which was only cancelled after Many noble Lords and the Government want to interventions by an immigration lawyer and his local make plans to celebrate this 70th anniversary, and we MP, Kate Osamor. She described his situation as would all welcome that. The point I want to stress is “barbaric” and said: that despite so many drawbacks, progress has been “People are left wondering: how can someone who has done made on many fronts, but this does not mean that so much for the community be treated like a piece of rubbish? discrimination has been successfully eliminated and Why send people to detention when they have done nothing that prejudice no longer exists. It is important that we wrong?”. celebrate the way in which we have safeguards to YourLordships will recall that in 2012, the then Home ensure that this does not happen and that we have Secretary announced a “hostile environment for policies to deal with these ugly features. immigrants”. This has clearly led to overzealous Who in their right mind in those early days of interventions by officials. I have mentioned just two migration would have imagined that this country would cases today, but there are many others; they will not promote legislation to ensure equality of opportunity have the good fortune of excellent local MPs taking for all of its citizens with an emphasis on race, disability, up their cases. gender, age, faith and sexual orientation? We must I hope the Minister will be able to say that that never forget the contributions of people like Fenner hostility has been abandoned and that immigrants Brockway, Roy Jenkins, Lord David Pitt, Lord Chitnis, who are here lawfully are welcome and appreciated. Lord Boyle, the former Colonial Secretary Iain Macleod Surely the Home Office could bring itself to offer and the famous cricketer Lord Learie Constantine, my Paulette Wilson, and others treated in a similar way, a noble friend Lord Lester and organisations like Campaign proper apology? Against Racial Discrimination, all of whom worked tirelessly towards this end. I am so pleased that we 4.13 pm have on the speakers list today the noble Lord, Lord Lord Dholakia (LD): My Lords, I add my thanks to Ouseley, the first black chair of the Commission for the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, and my noble Racial Equality. We must also not forget the noble friend Lady Benjamin for raising this issue in the last Baroness, Lady Lawrence, who despite her family few days. tragedy has continued to play a positive role in building About 70 years ago, the steamship “Empire Windrush” a decent society. docked at Tilbury, carrying with it the hopes and We now see a cultural pluralism that has emerged. dreams of hundreds of young men and women from If this is the legacy of Commonwealth migration, we the Caribbean. Nothing like this had happened before. should welcome it. The legacy has demonstrated that Here was an event when people from the margins of if properly handled, migration is to be valued and the Empire were coming to build a new life in the promoted, not regarded as a source of fear. A progressive metropolitan centre. The arrival of “Empire Windrush” liberal approach would value differences and cultural is historical in that over the years it changed the pluralism. However,despite these reasons for welcoming master/servant relationship that Britain had enjoyed immigration, few other political issues raise the same in the colonies. tensions and emotions as immigration and its implications It is worth casting our minds back to that part of for “Britishness”. history. There was devastation in Britain, inflicted by I conclude by saying that we have an opportunity to the war. Britain’s role as a global power was declining, recognise the contribution that Commonwealth citizens with changes in the former colonies and at home. The have made to this country. It is time to reflect on the country was trapped in the old idea of itself. There positive legacy of the MV “Empire Windrush” and to was little consideration of a genuine migration policy celebrate the achievements of a proud and diverse and the settlement of new arrivals. The first arrivals society. The best time to beat our drum will be at the were greeted with the optimistic assumption that Britain CHOGM conference in April this year. shedding its colonial legacy would turn it into a true melting pot. In those days, there was no such thing as 4.17 pm immigration formalities. Commonwealth citizens were Baroness Young of Hornsey (CB): My Lords, the British subjects and had a right to enter the United noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, does us all a great Kingdom. It was generally assumed that the many service by initiating this debate and inviting us to racial, cultural and religious groups would be assimilated consider a number of significant issues. into a new whole—a single people with similar ideals, The late Professor Stuart Hall, an inspiration to so attitudes and values. many artists and academics, scholars and politicians The policymakers never thought that identity would across the world, who arrived in Britain from Jamaica be an issue. New arrivals would simply do as the in 1951 as a Rhodes scholar, was a great chronicler of Romans do. They would fit in neatly and assimilate. some of society’s contradictory approaches to racial Little thought was given to the impact of racism and and cultural identities. The ability to hold two or more economic marginalisation, or that people would want conflicting views or sensibilities is a hallmark of attitudes to retain their cultural heritage. The resurgence of the towards racial politics, whether those of the general extreme right demonstrated that the process was not public, the press or politicians and policymakers. automatic or inevitable. For those of European ancestry, Anniversaries may be counted on to bring those tensions there was considerable assimilation into the economic to the fore. GC 53 MV “Empire Windrush” [18 JANUARY 2018] MV “Empire Windrush” GC 54

The entreaties of the British Government of the failing in our responsibility if we did not take the day drew a positive response from the Caribbean, opportunity to emphasise this point whenever we can. Africa and Asia, as they did in the First World War Finally, Parliament can make a contribution in terms and in the Second World War: “Come and help the of looking at itself and the contradictory nature of mother country rebuild its shattered services and lay legislation which on the one hand proposes equality the foundations for new ones”. Yet as noble Lords and anti-discrimination but on the other introduces have pointed out, the reactions to the small band of harsh policies around immigration and detention. 20th century pioneers on the MV “Empire Windrush” In summary, I have tried to indicate that thought was not exclusively welcoming, not even from the very needs to be given as to how this memorialisation is politicians who had invited them. However, it is also made to work for us and to be presented to the public important to state that the reception was not uniformly at large. I hope we can adopt a more sophisticated and hostile either. nuanced approach that is not afraid to engage with Contradictory attitudes mean that migrants and ambiguity and dissonance. their descendants may be both demonised and valorised at the same time by politicians and newspapers without 4.22 pm missing a beat. Significant achievements in the arts, science and sport may be both praised and written off The Lord Bishop of St Albans: I am grateful that the as “political correctness gone mad”, depending on an noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, tabled this debate, and editorial or political whim. Any academic wishing to in particular that she has framed it in the context of a write about the purpose and impact of the memorialisation celebration. Having said that, we also need to face the of landmark events and anniversaries will find some fact that there are a number of quite shameful things rich objects of study this year. There are the two stages in our history that we need to confront. of women’s demand for the right to vote being All dioceses in the Church of England are linked acknowledged, as well as the end of the First World with other parts of the Anglican communion, and I War and 70 years of the NHS. am particularly interested in today’s debate as my own Given our demonstrable desire to commemorate, diocese of St Albans is linked with the dioceses of the what is it that we are seeking to achieve? How may we Windward Islands and of the North East Caribbean ensure that, in the interests of historical accuracy, we and Aruba, which I have visited. Many people in our acknowledge the pain as well as the pleasure—the diocese have strong links with the West Indies—we tension between achievement and suffering, and between regularly have exchanges and get to know people and racism and acceptance—afforded by remembering, communities. In Luton, which is in my diocese, we without souring the whole experience? We should have thriving communities of people from the island embrace the challenges and seek resolutions to them, of St Vincent, in St Peter’s and in Holy Cross, Marsh not try to avoid them. Farm. Discussions are under way at the moment about Starting from those iconic black and white how this event will be celebrated in Luton. photographic images of arrival at Tilbury docks, we need The events surrounding the arrival of migrants—at to ensure that women’s roles and voices are foregrounded whatever point but particularly in the 1940s and 1950s— equally alongside men’s. Let us be diligent in our are complex, and I see something of this in my own research and seek out those women, here and overseas, family. An uncle and aunt, deeply committed lifelong and identify their part in this history whenever there Methodists, made it their life’s work over many decades are exhibitions or discussions about those settlers. to use their property in London to welcome lodgers, There are also wider stories from 1948 in terms of a particularly those coming into the country. They took wide spectrum of experiences of colonial peoples of great pride in introducing them to people and embedding that period. Independence movements, rebellions, caste them into their Methodist church. It was an extraordinary and class consciousness, and so on, mark that period piece of work, which the family celebrates. shortly after the end of the Second World War. The I also have to say, though, that in my own family landing of the “Windrush” and disembarkation of racist comments were made behind their backs.Questions those 492 men did not happen in isolation from other were raised about why they were doing it—was it just events and movements. This needs to be located within to make money? Growing up in my own family, I its historical, social, cultural and international context. could see precisely the tensions that are being recognised We should be explicitly linking the staffing of the and acknowledged in this debate. public sector after the havoc wrought by the war not It is good that the anniversary of the arrival of the only to the settlers who came on that ship and others “Windrush” will be marked this year by a service in like it from the Caribbean but also to those who set Westminster Abbey. That is a good thing to do, but the sail from west Africa, from east Africa and from the danger is that it remains as this sort of symbolic act. It Indian subcontinent. How do these stories interconnect seems to me that the most important way we can with more recent mass migrations, such as the movement celebrate this anniversary is to commit ourselves now of Europeans into the UK et cetera? to a greater degree of racial equality and social cohesion. Another important question is how we might think In my own diocese, we are continuing to roll out a more broadly about Caribbean peoples’ histories. I am programme of training in recognising and confronting sorry to the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, wherever he racial bias. It is something we need to attend to all the might be, but the history of the black diaspora in this time among ourselves. country did not start in 1948. It goes back centuries. I note the proposals that have been around for So many historians and cultural commentators have some while for an official Windrush Day to celebrate worked very hard to dispel that myth that we would be this significant contribution that migrant communities GC 55 MV “Empire Windrush” [LORDS] MV “Empire Windrush” GC 56

[THE LORD BISHOP OF ST ALBANS] I end with the following observation. I am very glad have made to British life. A national day to foster the Bishop talked about the importance of celebration positive and constructive discourse around the issue of because I think that is right. We live in a world which migration—which has become so incredibly toxic in is diverse. That is part of creation—its diversity. We recent years—would be a great way of honouring the really have to learn to enjoy and celebrate diversity memory of those who came over here in 1948, and and see it as an enriching feature of living, rather than perhaps before and after, and the huge contribution something to be managed because of all the problems they have made to every aspect of our life as a nation. associated with it. We have to let ourselves go and I also note the suggestion to have some sort of permanent celebrate it. I hope, therefore, that whatever is done to memorial here in the UK, possibly in London. I hope celebrate the arrival of “Windrush”, we will be letting that Her Majesty’s Government will give consideration ourselves go and celebrating as we should. Unless we to how we can enable groups of people to get together in Britain fully,as a whole society,endorse and understand to think about both the permanent ways of marking our interdependence with humanity as a whole, our this anniversary and also how to then use them to future is pretty grim. I am glad that this debate was address the fundamental issues in society of how we introduced. engage with and celebrate the contribution that these communities—and indeed other communities—make 4.31 pm as they have come to enrich our life here in the United Kingdom. Lord Crisp (CB): My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness on securing the debate and on her very eloquent speech. What a pleasure it is to follow the 4.26 pm noble Lord, Lord Judd, and the remarks about the Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, first, I thank the noble future with which he concluded. Baroness for having given us the opportunity to have It is a simple story and a very powerful one. People this debate and for the very enlightened, warm and were asked to come to our aid. They came, they helped objective way in which she introduced it. We are very and many—indeed, most, probably—were treated poorly. fortunate to have somebody like her in our midst. We have moved on from those days, as so many noble I was a youngster, in my teens, when the “Windrush” Lords have already mentioned, but not yet far enough. arrived, but I can remember the excitement and There is more to do, and I will illustrate that in a concentration. It is very important that we have been moment. reminded that the reaction was mixed. I was shocked Speaking as a former chief executive of the NHS that there were people then saying, “No Blacks welcome and former Permanent Secretary at the Department of here” in lodgings and elsewhere. Health, I know as well as anybody in recent years the The noble Baroness was absolutely right to raise the great contribution that the “Windrush”generation—and, point about the role of the Church. I am a sort of since then, people from black and minority ethnic humanist Anglican, and I say with faith in my own communities more generally—have made to the NHS. church that I cannot imagine that we can go on into When I was chief executive, the make-up of the NHS the 22nd century with just that Church represented by was more than 17% from black and minority ethnic right as a denomination in Britain. It just does not communities. It had an overrepresentation of people represent the reality of Britain. We can understand the from black and minority ethnic communities. I also historical argument for this, and how important the know that there still was not the sort of equality of Church has been in the whole evolution of the House opportunity that one would like to see. The expression of Lords, and all the rest, but if we are going to reflect that became current in those days was the “snowy Britain as it is today, we have to look, for example, at white peaks” of the NHS, and I guess I was sitting on the flourishing black churches in some of our one, because when you looked at the NHS, people communities, with a very challenging interpretation of from black and minority ethnic communities were Christianity and how it can be enjoyed. congregated largely in the more hands-on—direct patient Above all, I want, as an Anglo-Saxon Scot, to say care—but lower levels of the hierarchy. thank you, because I know from the social experience I congratulate NHS England on what it has been of the years that have passed since the “Windrush” doing recently to try to make changes and secure that the health service would not have survived without greater equality of opportunity, particularly the recent the Caribbean community.Public transport, particularly workforce race equality standard, which has been but not only in London, would not have survived. We applied across the whole NHS and which is revealing must remember that we encouraged these people to and bringing out details about how different groups come—the noble Baroness referred to that. are treated within the NHS. So there is more to do, I am also very glad that the noble Baroness, Lady although we have come an awfully long way. Perhaps, Young of Hornsey, made the point about a rather as a former chief executive of the NHS, I can also say limited perception that does not see the very interesting thank you to the many people who have made such an contribution made by black minorities and others way extraordinary contribution to the NHS over the years. back into our history. Now we see this coming to I will conclude with two suggestions—two questions, fruition as we see the contribution to the arts, not only really—for the Minister, which I ask him to pass on to of the fantastic choirs associated with the churches the Department of Health. The first is that this year is but the Royal Shakespeare Company and opera. The also the 70th anniversary of the NHS and I believe there contribution is there in academia. Of course, the noble are already plans to celebrate that anniversary and to Baroness is a very good illustration of that. include the contribution of the “Windrush”generation. GC 57 MV “Empire Windrush” [18 JANUARY 2018] MV “Empire Windrush” GC 58

That needs to be celebrated to highlight the past, but to him by a Royal Navy captain, Michael Henry Pascal. we also need to highlight the present and the future. With Captain Pascal, Vassa served in the Seven Years’ Something I would suggest as part of that is asking a War against France from 1756 to1763. He served on young group of nurses from black and minority ethnic the same ship that took General James Wolfe and his communities to write out their vision for the health men into battle against French troops in Quebec in service for the future, based on the principles and 1759. Later, under his African name, Olaudah Equiano, ideals that so many people have been talking about he wrote a book which was published in several different today, so that not only are we celebrating a generation languages in other European countries. from the past but thinking about and celebrating the Vassa was a contemporary of Ignatius Sancho, an ideas of a current generation about the future—it African who lived as a boy in Greenwich from the would be nice if any of them were descendants of the 1730s and grew up to become butler of the Duke and people who came on the “Windrush”. Duchess of Montagu. Sancho later became a shopkeeper, Let me also mention one other proposal. I am composed music, appeared on the stage, and entertained talking very heavily about nurses, because I am delighted many famous figures of literary and artistic London. to say that I and my noble friend Lady Watkins of He was said to have been the first African to have Tavistock are engaged in a campaign to promote and voted in a British election, during the 1770s. He also strengthen the role of nurses globally. I understand wrote a large number of letters which were collected there is a proposal to have a statue erected in London and published in 1782, two years after his death. to nurses who have come from other countries to Thomas Gainsborough’s portrait of Sancho was painted support the NHS—not just the “Windrush”generation, in 1768 while the Montagu family were in Bath. Those but nurses who have come from Africa, India and are only a few of the many example of stories of elsewhere around the world. I think this would be a African people who lived in Britain many years ago great symbolic gesture and a recognition from the and who made a contribution to this country. NHS, which is a global employer and has drawn so There is a story to be told about the fight for air heavily on people around the world. It would be a raid shelters in Brixton were fought to be opened up celebration of what they are doing and a promise that, because there was no other accommodation provided in the future, we can do better. for those who arrived here. In drawing to a conclusion, I would like to mention 4.35 pm three names among the many thousands that I could Lord Ouseley (CB): My Lords, I thank the noble refer to. They are people who are known to me and Baroness, Lady Berridge, for introducing this debate, who made an essential contribution to how we took which gives us the opportunity to reflect on what forward the struggle for equality and justice, challenging might be a Windrush Day. Her introduction invites us prejudice and bigotry, and, as the noble Lord, Lord to look broadly at how we might commemorate and Dholakia, mentioned, furthering the opportunity to celebrate what “Windrush” should mean to us. In my bring forward legislation to enable equality for everyone. view, it really is not simply about the arrival at Tilbury Those three are Sam King, who was a giant in Southwark, Docks in Essex on 22 June 1948 of more than 500 which I am sure will be referred to, Rene Webb and British subjects from the West Indies. It is more about George Greaves. They are all ex-servicemen who arrived the black presence in Britain. Interestingly, there were at the same time. They served during the war, were also 66 Polish migrants on that ship when it docked. sent back and were asked to return to Britain. The real The history of the black presence in Britain is contribution that they made in promoting equality, about people from the Caribbean, Africa, Asia and justice and community cohesion was recognised through what was then called the new Commonwealth. Can we the award of public honours. still call it that, or should we call it the Commonwealth, Finally, a Windrush Day would highlight how that embracing people from the old and the new generation helped Britain to face up to the end of the Commonwealth? That history is littered with many empire, to challenge racial prejudice, injustices and colourful characters and insightful experiences.Septimius discrimination, and to campaign for equality legislation Severus was an African Roman Emperor in command to make Britain fairer and enable access to opportunities of a garrison at Hadrian’s Wall. The Blackamoors in on an equitable basis. That struggle for equality,inclusion Tudor England at the end of the 16th century were and cohesion remains a feature of everyday life for largely self-sufficient, established African communities. many people in Britain today and every day. They attracted the attention of the then monarch, Queen Elizabeth I, who proclaimed that there were 4.41 pm too many Blackamoors on the streets of London and Baroness Benjamin (LD): My Lords, I too congratulate they should be removed from these shores. the noble Baroness on securing this important debate A Windrush Dayon 22 June would be about promoting and on her passion for making a difference. I declare knowledge about the historic facts of migration and an interest as a patron of the Windrush Foundation. new settlements in Britain. It would celebrate how My vision as we celebrate the 70th anniversary of the newcomers to Britain have contributed positively to MV “Empire Windrush” arriving in Britain is for the the cultural, economic and social development of the Government to commemorate it by announcing an country. official annual Windrush Day.It would give the country Some 250 years ago, a young man then known as the opportunity to celebrate all aspects of our migrant Gustavus Vassa decided to make Britain his home. He population and to appreciate their contribution through had just bought his freedom from the owner of a sugar education, politics, sport, art, music, culture, fashion, plantation. Gustavus Vassa was his slave name, given cuisine, business, medicine and so on. GC 59 MV “Empire Windrush” [LORDS] MV “Empire Windrush” GC 60

[BARONESS BENJAMIN] Lords, I look forward to the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, The “Windrush” arrival is not always highlighted setting out for us what the Government plan to do to during Black History Month, so a Windrush Day celebrate the arrival of the “Empire Windrush”70 years would be a day to remember not only “Windrush” ago at Tilbury Docks. passengers but other migrants who have made and It is such a momentous occasion and a milestone continue to make significant contributions to the on the way of creating the country we live in today. prosperity of Britain. Schools could annually feature People coming here from the Caribbean to make a life and highlight them, and it would be a means of for themselves and make a contribution to this country fostering greater social understanding and cohesion. should be celebrated. As many noble Lords have said, It could be a way for young people, especially those they were not always welcomed with open arms by the from minority ethnic backgrounds, to develop a better communities they came to live in, but their children sense of identity as the histories and contributions of and grandchildren have gone on to make a contribution their ancestors are appreciated and celebrated. and continue to do so today, in all walks of life. I am part of the “Windrush” generation. I came to I had the privilege of knowing one of the men that Britain from Trinidad as a 10 year-old and I had to walked off the ship at Tilbury on 22 June. As the noble break down many barriers. I had to face unbelievable Lord, Lord Ouseley, said, his name was Sam King, a adversity which no child should have to endure, being man born at Priestman’s River in Portland, Jamaica—I told by a church in Penge that my kind was not wanted am very pleased he has already been mentioned. He there. This happened to many Caribbean people who responded to an advert in the Gleaner from the simply wanted to worship joyfully in church as they Government looking for young men to come and help had done in the Caribbean. That is why so many them to fight the Nazis. He joined the Royal Air Force black-led churches sprung up in cities across the country. and after training was posted to RAF Hawkinge, So it is wonderful to hear that the nation’s church where he worked as an engineer. leaders will be celebrating and commemorating the 70th “Windrush” anniversary positively. I am a positive After the war, he went back to Jamaica but could thinker and believe that we should all pave the way for not settle. Then he saw another advert in the Gleaner future generations. Our children need to feel as though for tickets to come on the “Empire Windrush”. He got they belong in order to face the future confidently. So his ticket, got off the boat at Tilbury and rejoined the we all need to play our part in the “Windrush”celebrations RAF.After leaving the RAF some years later, he joined as a legacy. We are part of it. the Post Office and became a postman for 34 years. He My contribution to the 70th anniversary is to create was a major figure in the West Indian community, an RHS Chelsea Flower Show “Windrush” garden particularly in London. Along with others, he helped with the help of Birmingham City Council. The garden to set up the Notting Hill carnival. He was a lover of will also be displayed around the country so that as sport, particularly cricket. I first got to know Sam in many people as possible will be able to experience the the days when they had that great West Indian cricket vibrant horticultural display telling the story of those team which beat us in the West Indies and then came pioneers from the Caribbean who travelled to Britain and beat us here in England as well. to start a new life and helped to rebuild Britain after As we have heard, Sam helped set up the Windrush the war by working in the NHS, the transport system, Foundation to preserve the memories of those who factories and many other services. An element of the had travelled here to the United Kingdom on that display will be a collage of images of the “Windrush” ship. While a postman, he joined the Labour Party, story as seen through the eyes of schoolchildren. It is and was an active member of the Dulwich Constituency great that the “Windrush” will now be part of the Labour Party for many years. He worked with the then national curriculum for 16 year-olds who will be able local MP, Sam Silkin, who then became Lord Silkin of to take their history exams in the subject at GCSE Dulwich. Later he worked with Tessa Jowell as the level, but a Windrush Day would add value to education local MP, now my noble friend Lady Jowell. for children of all ages. Sam became a Labour councillor, and then the first Parliament officially recognised 23 August as black person ever to become Mayor of Southwark. UNESCO’s International Day for the Remembrance Local government in the 1980s, especially in London, of the Slave Trade and its Abolition, so why not was a fairly rough affair. No quarter was given, and 22 June as Windrush Day? I hope that the Government Sam had to handle some fairly stormy meetings at will consider this and celebrate the 70th anniversary Southwark Town Hall. He did so with great wit, by officially announcing a Windrush Day. We owe it to charm, skill and dignity. He also carried out his other the descendants of the “Windrush” generation, so that roles as first citizen of the borough and was much they feel they are part of the history of our great loved by all who got to know him. He was then country.I look forward to working with the Government awarded an MBE in 1998. On 31 January 2010, a blue to make the “Windrush” celebration memorable and plaque was placed outside the house he lived in from significant. 1958 to 1984 on Warmington Road. For me, Sam is an example of a life well lived and a 4.45 pm shining example of the contribution immigrants make Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op): My Lords, to our country—particularly, as in his case, from the first, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, Caribbean. He was loved by his family and friends; he on securing this debate this afternoon. In the short was law abiding; he served this country in the Armed time I have, I will not be able to cover all the points Forces; he arrived back here and worked in the public noble Lords have made in the debate. Like other noble sector; he was a community activist and made a major GC 61 MV “Empire Windrush” [18 JANUARY 2018] MV “Empire Windrush” GC 62 contribution, as we have heard, to the community Let me make it clear that the Government are absolutely here; and he was an elected politician. He is only one determined that people who are rightly here should man, but he is an example of the difference that people remain here. who have come to live and work here have made to this I will ensure that a copy of the report of this debate country. is shared with other government departments, because The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, talked about the NHS, it has clearly impacted on a number of areas, including and this is one area we have never sorted out. People DCMS on statues, which I will come on to, and the come and work in the public sector and then retire. Home Office in relation to the correct contribution Many people may want to retire back to the Caribbean. from the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. If they do, their pension is frozen. That is something The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, asked about recognition we should look at. It is very unfair. My mum and dad of the role of the “Windrush” generation and members are Irish. My mum was a nurse as well, and they of ethnic minority communities in general in relation retired to Ireland. My mum and dad get their pension to the NHS. He is absolutely right. We all remember increase every year with no problem at all, but if you the powerful impact of the opening ceremony of the go back to the Caribbean, you do not. That is unfair. Olympics in 2012, which combined references to the You have paid for that pension. I know it would cost a “Windrush”, the NHS and the fact that we are a lot of money, but the Government should look at it proud multicultural, multiracial society.That is reflected because it is unfair. We should look at the contribution in everyday life, not just in the public sector, but that they have made to this country: what you paid for, certainly in the public sector and probably most obviously you should be entitled to get. But what a great debate in our great NHS. That is an important point. I know we have had. that is the view of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health, Jeremy Hunt, but I will 4.50 pm ensure that he sees a copy of the report of this important Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con): My Lords, I debate. congratulate and thank my noble friend Lady Berridge The noble Lord, Lord Crisp, made a valid point for bringing this very important topic to our attention about statues. As a nation, a country and a kingdom, today. It has been a debate of extreme potency and we have become much more aware of the importance impact on many different fronts and I will try to do of statues. You can scarcely open a newspaper these justice to the contributions that have been made. At days without seeing a legitimate case being made for a the end of my period, I will specifically deal with some statue of an individual or a cause. I will ensure that a of the plans we have. In so far as I have not covered all copy of the report of this debate goes to DCMS with the detail of the plans, I will cover them in a letter a covering note. which I will send to all Members of the Committee. We should not think just in terms of London, In response to a point made early on by my noble although London is important. In that context, before friend Lady Berridge about the input of other noble I come to some of the activities that the Government Lords, we would be happy to hear from all noble Lords are engaged in, we are working with Tilbury—I think about ideas. We have had some good potent, ideas Tilbury lies in the London Borough of Thurrock—and today. I have written separately to the noble Baroness, Lambeth because on 22 June, Windrush Day, there Lady Lawrence, because she will clearly have ideas and will be a celebration of the 70th anniversary. I am very I would like to be able to reflect on them so that we are grateful for the dynamic representation of the community able to move forward together on some of the important provided by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin, who areas that we have touched on today. has been a joy to work with as we have looked at these Many noble Lords referred to the early degree of projects. I congratulate her on the success of the prejudice that undoubtedly existed and the awful garden project, which I know she has been instrumental experiences that many of the first members of the in driving forward. It is very hard to say no to her on “Windrush”generation, not just those on the “Windrush”, anything, but on something as great as a garden, I can must have experienced when coming to this country, quite see why she has had that success. I hope to be finding not just a cold climate but a very cold reception. able to visit it when it comes to London. I am sure we That was truly awful. Many noble Lords referred to all do. It is a great thing. that and to the journey we have made, including the In the context of saying that we are working with noble Lord, Lord Judd, the noble Baroness, Lady the Windrush Foundation, the Voice will bring out a Young of Hornsey, and the right reverend Prelate the special celebration edition to mark the 70th anniversary. Bishop of St Albans, but other noble Lords said that We also have plans to mark it not just in Westminster we still face challenges, including the noble Lords, Abbey but to make it known to other cathedrals and Lord Dholakia and Lord Crisp, who had some specific religious bodies around the country that it is Windrush questions that I will try to cover, the noble Lord, Lord Day. We need to make sure that it is recognised and get Faulkner, who made a very powerful contribution, a positive message out there about the importance of and the noble Lord, Lord Ouseley, who asked some the day. They might like to have a service of celebration specific questions. I shall try to deal with some of in their community and to organise a tea party, as will them. be happening in Lambeth. There is also the possibility The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, made a potent of live-streaming between different celebrations. point. It strikes me as strange, as it has done for some Celebration will not be on Windrush Day only. Things time, that we see people challenged and asked to go are starting in Lambeth in February.They are happening back to a country where they may never have been or, in Leeds, where the Phoenix Dance Theatre is putting if they have, it was a long time ago, and it is not home. on a Windrush production, which will be coming to GC 63 MV “Empire Windrush”[LORDS] UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding GC 64

[LORD BOURNE OF ABERYSTWYTH] Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, I thank all those London on, I think, 26 to 28 April, so I give advance who have decided at the end of this busy week to give notice to noble Lords. It will be at Sadler’s Wells, I me an hour of their time to discuss these matters. This think. I hope to be able to go to it. A range of debate was inspired in my mind by the fact that we are activities is going on, and we hope to enlarge on what at a point of celebration and worry in sport, in equal is already happening while keeping it focused. I am measure. Wehave transformed our sporting environment very happy and privileged to work with noble Lords to from the top. Of the statistics that I have acquired make sure that we can enhance what is happening. from various sources, as one does at the start of a The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, referred to the debate, the one that stuck out for me was that our great Sam King. He was indeed a great man. Many improvement from 1996, the Atlanta Games, to the great men and women who came over on that boat, Rio Games was a 347% increase in medals. But that subsequent and previous boats deserve to be honoured, figure probably tells you where one of the problems but there is clearly iconic significance to the “Windrush” comes from—the Olympic Games. At elite level, one which we want to celebrate as a country to demonstrate of the problems has been that, if you are in that select not just how far we have come, which we have, but to club, getting this wonderful funding that is provided recognise that there are still challenges, some of which by the lottery, or at least inspired by it, and giving I hope that we can face through the Race Disparity central government the incentive to get in on this Audit. It published data, and you cannot really disagree wonderful success story and guarantee it, which it has with data. You can disagree about what we do about done, you are actually excluding other sports, or making the data, and that debate is now going on in government the barrier to get in there that little bit higher. Team because the Prime Minister has been driving it hard sports seem to struggle slightly, and are more vulnerable. and has been asking departments to bring forward I asked the noble Lord, Lord Ashton, beforehand plans to ensure that we take forward the published whether he could give an example of exactly what the data and act to ensure that some of the lessons are criteria for success is, because it is perceived as being learned and some of the wrongs are righted. That is medals at the Olympics. I know it is broader and more something I know that we want to do. complicated than that, and I have probably made that I hope that noble Lords will forgive me, because mistake in conversation and in communication with I am sure that I have missed some points. I will try to people—but if we can actually see what the criteria for pick them up in the letter that I will send round. I funding elite sport is, that would help this debate and, encourage all noble Lords to pass on the message I hope, get it beyond here and out. If we can make sure about the importance of Windrush Day and, more that we are encouraging sport to expand its base, we broadly, about the lesson of the Windrush generation may well get to the bit that has not been so successful. and its importance for our country. We are all here in a The participation rate at a moderate level of about mood of celebration about Windrush, but we must 30 minutes a week has improved over the same period also recognise that we cannot be complacent. There by 6%. Clearly, a 6% improvement for the entire are still lessons to be learned, although the examples population may be a massive increase, but the perception of others from earlier generations demonstrate that is,in our current environment, that funding is concentrated there were people at the time who obviously were on a few sports that are encouraged to win all the receptive, as the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, medals. With certain sports—for instance, when you pointed out. It was not all bleak, even in those early have lots of medals available—of course, we have the days, although it was clearly very bleak for many potential of getting much more bang for our buck. people. There was the example of people early on, A sport such as artistic gymnastics has lots of such as Roy Jenkins, although that was perhaps a bit different events and lots of opportunities to acquire later,and Ian Macleod, as well as people in the community champions and people who succeed at that level, compared and religious communities up and down the country to one of the team sports. Hockey has done reasonably who were helping. well, but one centre forward down and a goalkeeper I once again thank my noble friend Lady Berridge having a bad day and that medal goes. That is the fact for introducing this debate in such a timely way, I thank of the matter in all team sports. If you have lots of noble Lords who participated and look forward to different options, to a degree you have a buffer zone, working with them to ensure that we have a very and if you have a good structure in place, you do not successful year and a very successful Windrush Day and have to worry about that off day to the same extent, get it into the national calendar. That is very important. because you will have other bites at the cherry. How Motion agreed. are we going to structure this in future? The question of how we bring other sports up that will penetrate into other bits of society is very important. If we UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding cannot address that, we are not following on from that Question for Short Debate initial success. We are not saying, “We will do more”. 5.01 pm There is a cohesive social value in amateur sport, when people join together to do something that they Asked by Lord Addington get a buzz out of or enjoy, or whatever the correct To ask Her Majesty’s Government what term is in psychology. It is about the mates who give consideration they have given to reviewing the guidance up their time on a regular basis to get involved in given to UK Sport about which sports are to receive sport. Indeed, there are direct health benefits of casual funding for elite programmes, to take into account sport. At Question Time today, we were discussing the potential growth of grassroots participation. how exercise helps you in old age. If you have a GC 65 UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding[18 JANUARY 2018] UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding GC 66 sporting habit, exercise is a lot easier to do. Your We have an expansion here; we have a series of muscles might have decayed, but if you have some turns we can take. What are we doing to link the two muscle memory then, to put it bluntly, you stand a aspects? If we are to build on success, it appears that chance of getting them back without killing yourself. we have to look to what is culturally embedded and As all the old sportsmen in the Room will know, and I enhance it. In boxing, for instance, we produce literally see there are a few, you find yourself going back. dozens of world-class amateur boxers now, and that is socially acceptable—it goes on to have good social The relationship between the elite and grass-roots results. If we can build upon that, we will do something sports is changing, in a good way. As I get older—and good for society. If we do not, we will lose every social I still occasionally put myself through “golden oldies” benefit that goes with it. All I am looking for today is rugby—I am beginning to wonder when rugby is to get some response from the Government and to going to get a walking version of its game. It has been hear from others about how we take this on. We have a said of me that I am going that way quite rapidly good story; we are at the point where we can make it a anyway; indeed, some people have said I was never far great one or go backwards. I look forward to hearing off it in the first place. In the context of the development what others say in this debate. of grass-roots sports, how do you make that relationship between the two, and how can it be perceived as more equal? What thinking is going on about that? 5.10 pm Lord Moynihan (Con): My Lords, I declare two There is an elephant in the room that is going to interests, one as president of British Water Ski and plant its feet on our toes very rapidly: the lottery does Wakeboard and the other as chairman of the British not seem to be delivering funds with anything like the Olympic Association from 2005 to 2012, covering the efficiency that it did. I do not know whether that is a Beijing and London Olympic cycles—when, after much management problem or the result of competition or negotiation with government, we secured funding for if it is just the case that the world has slightly moved eight years and beyond. A very important point was on. I have had exchanges with the Minister before made by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, who I about this, but if we are going to rely on the lottery, we congratulate on securing this debate: a four-year cycle must look at what we can do to ensure that it can at for a sport will never deliver what you wish. The least guarantee the level of funding that we have at the reality is that you need to plan for a good 20 years. We moment. A decline in funding from the lottery,particularly need to make sure that secure funding is in place for for grass-roots sports, is unwelcome. It is one thing to sports over that sort of period rather than the quadrennial get a Minister to say, “Yes, we’ll guarantee your Olympic cycle. programme or your elite-level programme”, but it is rather more difficult politically to argue for the upgrading I would like to make a very few comments. First, in of sports pitches, village halls and so on, particularly essence, I hope that UK Sport will consider turning as there will always be someone making an excellent the existing pyramid upside down and allowing those case for other uses of that money. How are we going to sports which have no programme funding to have address that? I would be interested to hear the discussion something that athletes can aspire to by allocating that is going on, because we are coming to the end some funds to every Olympic and Paralympic sport of this cycle of funding. For the next Olympic Games, and thus rewarding success. It is neither logical nor it is all to play for. We must start to address this right that badminton, which medalled in Rio, or thoroughly. wheelchair rugby, which missed out on a medal by one goal in the final match, should have all their funding We have to go beyond the idea that everything will withdrawn after analysis by a so-called intelligence be fine because, if lots of people watch it on television, unit of UK Sport. They simply analyse using their they will go out, join in and take it up themselves. computers and do not understand that to secure success, Although that may work a little, it patently does not a wider participation base is essential and funding work well enough. We have to do something else. If we needs to be put in place. I repeat that it is not just for want to cheer people on TV, we have to make sure that that four-year cycle, depending on the outcome of a our recruitment base is wide, or we can contract in on final, but over a much longer period. ourselves and concentrate on a few sports. For instance, Secondly, I hope that UK Sport can look closely at if we want to have an internationally recognisable the amount of money going into the English Institute basketball team—I have a little knowledge of some of of Sport. It seems in some ways to be unconnected the people in the Room—with a cultural base and with what is needed by each sport. Those in receipt of activity, what level of investment by the state would be funding pay for the services of the EIS, which could in required to do that? That would drag in other aspects my view be made to work far better at a more reasonable as well, and other sports would have other angles. cost. I hope that a review of the EIS can be high on What do we need to maintain sports? Are we prepared Dame Kath Grainger’s priorities. to get slightly more involved in planning ahead and Thirdly, the short-termism culture of the current developing how these things go? I do not say that this funding model, which I have mentioned, fails to recognise is easy; we found out from the London Olympics that the potential of the unfunded sports. More and more you cannot create a team overnight and expect it to be is going into the successful sports which carry our maintained. Handball is a wonderful game to watch; if medal haul. I recognise the extraordinary contribution I were a few years younger, I think I would have they have made and the remarkable success they continue enjoyed playing it. But it would appear that we have to have worldwide. I value that but we have now moved no cultural base for it, and will not have one unless we to the position whereby five sports had more than 50% do a lot more work. of the total four-year funding for Rio. That is funded GC 67 UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding[LORDS] UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding GC 68

[LORD MOYNIHAN] In conclusion, as president of British Water Ski, I by the organisation UK Sport which is mandated to want to make one very interesting point. British Water promote sport the length and breadth of the United Ski and Wakeboard came off the agenda in 2012 when Kingdom. I believe that there should be one pyramid UK Sport stopped funding non-Olympic sports. It which should connect and encourage participation was told that it should rely on talent programme at the base and provide services and the support funding from Sport England, which is doing a very structure needed right the way through to medal success good job now in developing participation, but the at the top. talent funding programme is about to go. That is a I hope that more and more sports men and women classic example of the base of the pyramid, and the move away from the feeling that many sports had post top of the pyramid for a few sports, being very strong, Rio: that they had nothing to aim for because their but there is no consistent ladder to climb, which is the national programmes were no longer funded and were only way to secure long-term success in the medal demoralised as a result. UK Sport will of course argue tables. I hope that UK Sport can engage more with that national governing bodies should do more, but non-Olympic sports and urge the Commonwealth Games for many this creates an almost impossible situation Federation to bring water skiing onto the agenda for for the governing bodies. For those who seek to achieve when it returns to the UK. With the support of the their potential, there can be no future when there is no Commonwealth Games Foundation, I am sure that resource to assist them. Team sports have been particularly that will be the case. badly hit, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, mentioned. In conclusion, more needs to be done to deliver a Young men and women from ethnic communities one-stop shop, introducing all the difficult and relevant and disadvantaged groups tend to be attracted to team skills necessary to link participation with excellence in sports where they find friendships and all the a single, unique and coherent strategy. characteristics of well-being and togetherness. But local authority sports facilities being very expensive to 5.18 pm hire is impacting on the ability of local groups to meet and train. Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB): My Lords, I welcome UK Sport has cut the funding for international the debate and I draw your attention to my interests representation. I want to put on the record that I feel on the register. I am the chair of ukactive, vice-president this is a very important point. We need to make sure of the LGA and I fit the noble Lord, Lord Addington’s, that we have good international representation in all definition of an “old athlete”—many years ago, I was international bodies and that our top administrators a lottery-funded athlete. In April last year, I published attend congresses. However, that is impossible if a a report on duty of care in sport, which the Sports sport is not in receipt of UK Sport performance Minister, the right honourable Tracey Crouch MP, funding. This comes despite more than a decade of asked me to undertake. welcoming such an involvement and encouraging sports Lottery funding was set up to transform the medal to do so. It may not be possible for many sports to winning opportunities and it has done so. I want to attend the international congresses of their sports, point out that in Atlanta, although the Olympic team particularly those that have had a complete cut in won one gold, the Paralympic team won 39 and were funding. For example, squash has been working hard— third on the medal table—but the funding is extremely admirably so—to be recognised as an Olympic sport. welcome all the same. There is huge public support Having a seat at the top table of international squash and a real feel-good factor when teams win. Medals helps us enormously in making the case that squash, matter—they always have—but we must understand which is a very popular sport in this country, should that there is a cost to winning medals that is not just be an Olympic sport. A presence at the top table of financial. The 2012 Games were an incredible experience sport is vital not just for those who benefit most by and we were absolutely right to do it. The Games their medal tally, but for those five sports as well as the provide a moment of inspiration: there are athletes other sports and Paralympic sports that are funded. who are competing now because of London. I competed We should be looking at supporting international because of the 1984 Olympics. representation across the board. Elite sport is the showcase, but it is a small part of I totally accept that sponsorship and private sector the structure. Many sports are able to show the impact support is critical; it should be sought. This is an area that winning medals has on participation. I have long where UK Sport can help. It can sit down and work thought that major sporting events—I need to be clear with governing bodies—all governing bodies, not just on this—on their own do not change the world or the Olympic and Paralympic ones—to achieve more participation. It is not fair to expect the 10 days of the funding through sponsorship. When I was chairman Paralympics to change the lives of all disabled people. of the British Olympic Association, we had the FTSE It changed the lives of many Paralympians, but the 100 initiative where we linked companies directly to reality is that for many disabled people, it changed individual sports, many of which still benefit from the little. It did not make buses more accessible, nor stop sponsorship they received at that time. It was a huge disability hate crime. pity that when it came to the Olympic Games in While it is not impossible to make a GB team or London in 2012, when we raised over £1 billion in qualify for a major games, if the sport is not funded at LOCOG, there was not a single meeting between all the elite level it is likely to be very much harder. Young our governing bodies in sports and LOCOG to introduce athletes need to be able to see the top of the pyramid them to the sponsors that were new to sport. We lost and believe that they have an opportunity to get there. that opportunity. I understand that funding is not limitless and that GC 69 UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding[18 JANUARY 2018] UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding GC 70 there are challenges over lottery receipts; all sports concern to us all. If we look back at the medal success want more money. But I would like to ask this: how do of the Olympic team in Beijing, we see that 37% of our we inspire a nation if the opportunities to compete at Olympic medallists came from the independent sector. the highest level are limited because there is no funding? I cheered every single one of them on, but that is not There is a symbiotic relationship between elite, grass how sport should be in the future. roots and wider participation. We also cannot forget As the chair of ukactive, I said at our national the impact that volunteering has on sport. summit last year that activity is the golden thread that I would like to look at one sport in particular, runs through every part of our lives. Today’s young which I hope will provide a useful example: badminton, people are the least active ever and we need a serious for which we won a medal in Rio. However, it is not in shake-up of the school day to save “generation inactive” the funding cycle through to Tokyo for the elite side of from a lifetime of ill health. The fittest children today thesport.Badmintonhasthelargestschoolschampionship would have been considered some of the least fit and in Europe, involving some 42,000 young people between active 30 years ago. We need to bring activity back the ages of 11 to 16. If badminton is played in your into children’s daily lives. PE takes up just two hours primary school, you are four times more likely to play of the 168 hours in a child’s week, and that is only it at secondary school. That has been made possible during term time. Research by ukactive has shown because of lottery investment and it could not be done how the school summer holidays can drive a sharp without it. Approximately 50% of the people who wedge between the activity levels of the affluent and participate in badminton would not be classed as deprived children. We need to work with partners to “sporty”. For around £5 million of local money, the open up dozens of schools over the summer to address lottery has provided £70 million of investment into this inactivity. local facilities and that has been a key part of the Children are never going to turn up to a nutrition growth in participation. The lottery investment into session on its own or talk about oral health, the subject the world-class programme delivered not only the of an earlier debate that I spoke in. They might not medal in Rio, it delivered a 245% growth in participation turn up to a session about mindfulness, but sport has in London alone. Some 66% of the legacy growth the power to do a huge amount. Nelson Mandela said: across the country was among those aged under 16. “Sport has the power to change the world”. Badminton believes that the lottery funding works and needs to be protected. I agree with that, although By looking at how we can engage children through I probably have a different view on how the total sum freestyle dance classes, football or whatever sport it of money should be spent. may be, we might just have the chance of showing them the merits of a balanced and healthy lifestyle. We I should like to ask the Minister about the status of will then have a much greater chance of bringing these the response to the Every Sport Matters agenda, which children into sport. Sport is absolutely wonderful and the non-Olympic and Paralympic sports have presented it has given me so many things in my life, but it is time to UK Sport. I understand that the landscape is not to think a bit more widely than just sport. simple. We have UK Sport, Sport England, the home nations sports councils and devolution. It is not a 5.25 pm simple system to work through. I think that we need to start looking at this in a different way and consider Lord Wasserman (Con): My Lords, I, too, congratulate how truly active we are as a nation. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Addington, on securing this Sport England is looking at new ways of managing debate. I also thank him for his interest in the work of participation and funding projects differently. That is the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Basketball, of fantastic, but if we have less active people, we have fewer which I am joint chairman. I should also declare my people coming into sport. We are a nation of sports interest as chairman of the Basketball Foundation, a lovers and we are a nation of people who like watching registered charity established by the clubs which comprise sport, but perhaps participation is a little further down the professional British Basketball League—the BBL— the agenda. My own journey into elite sport was not with a view to encouraging and supporting the community about a pathway. I was paralysed at the age of seven. outreach activities of these clubs and of other basketball The world was not very accessible back then and my clubs around the country. father believed that I ought to be fit and healthy in This is not the first time that I have argued the case order to be able to live in an inaccessible world. in your Lordships’ House for more public funding for Part of the challenge is how we talk about sport. basketball. I make no apology for doing so again What do we mean by that? Do we mean competitive today. I am sure that noble Lords with strong interests sport, physical literacy or physical activity? Sport is a in other sports, such as badminton—particularly those subset of being active, and that is why we need to supported by UK Sport—will be relieved to hear that change some of the narrative. It should not always be I do not intend to argue that UK Sport should make sport for sport’s sake, we need to look at physical basketball a special case and support it at the expense activity as a preventative front line of the NHS. We of some other sport which it presently funds. need to be thinking about the health of the nation and I would, of course, love to see our national basketball how we could fund projects in a different way. The teams compete in the Olympics,and would enthusiastically reality, as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has said, is applaud a decision by UK Sport to enable the British that a four-year funding cycle for elite sport does not Basketball Federation to make it happen. However, I fit into a five-year election cycle, let alone anything would not want it to happen at the cost of our country else. We in the UK do incredibly well in sport at the slipping down the medals table. I love to see us at the highest level, but the inactivity crisis should be of huge top of the table, and I do not mind which sports have GC 71 UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding[LORDS] UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding GC 72

[LORD WASSERMAN] But those communities, by their very nature, cannot won the medals. Nor, frankly, do I take much notice of afford the facilities or coaches necessary to mount the educational background, or even the ethnicity, of effective basketball programmes, although most of the our athletes when I proudly watch them standing on sport’s biggest stars honed their skills on the streets or the podium singing our national anthem. For me, in public parks with nothing more than a ball and a sport is one of the few areas of life where innate hoop. So who should fund these facilities? Private ability,combined with dedication and sheer hard work— commercial and philanthropic funding for inner-city and perhaps luck—make all the difference. It is one of recreational basketball is very hard to come by. There the few areas where what counts is who you are, not are many reasons for that, including the fact that, who you know. That is why I believe that Dame although basketball is the second most popular sport Katherine Grainger is right to say that our hero athletes after football for 11 to 15 year-olds, it is played mainly can unite and inspire us as a nation. At a period in our in state, as opposed to independent, schools, and has national life when we are riven by debate caused by the very little social cachet. For that reason, public funding Brexit referendum, the Government would be well is the only realistic, short-term way of getting basketball advised to support anything that unites us and, to this into our inner-city BAME communities, to enable it to end, to put more money into all aspects of sport, both work its magic in terms of enhancing the life chances elite and grassroots. of the youth of those communities and keeping them I am probably revealing my naivety in comparison out of trouble. with some noble Lords who have spoken when I say As I argued earlier, I would not want to see this that I am prepared to leave it to UK Sport to do its job money taken from other parts of the sports landscape, of backing Olympic winners. I do not want to make particularly elite sport. It should be found from those life more difficult for UK Sport by asking it to use its government departments with statutory responsibility limited resources to solve a number of other major for keeping people out of trouble, enhancing their life national problems, such as urban deprivation and chances and keeping us all safe. Just as the Foreign ethnic and racial discrimination. UK Sport is already Office supports the foreign language service of the helping to tackle those problems by providing inspiration BBC, I propose that the Home Office, the Ministry of for our young people through the success which our Justice, the Department for Education and others find athletes achieve internationally.That said, those problems the funds to support basketball from their departmental need urgent attention and sport, particularly basketball, budgets as a contribution to building, can play a major role in tackling them. “a country that works for everyone”, Basketball is a sport which has a particular attraction to quote my right honourable friend the Prime Minister. for members of our inner-city communities, and especially How that money is distributed to these communities is our BAME communities. This is partly because its a matter for inter-departmental consideration. It could world-renowned heroes such as Wilt Chamberlain, be through basketball’s governing bodies, a new agency Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Michael Jordan and our own or charity,or through police and crime commissioners— John Amaechi are, to a large extent, members of these who, by the way, have responsibility for keeping our communities. We see the practical effect of this in our communities safe and who would jump at the chance national teams: 75% of our men’s senior team are of taking on this new task. What needs no further members of our BAME community; 85% of our consideration is the urgent need for action. under-20 men’s team and 75% of our under-18 and under-16 men’steams are members of those communities. 5.32 pm The figures for our women’s teams are lower, but not significantly so. This, of course, reflects the fact that Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD): My Lords, I thank more than half—58%—of basketball’sadult participants my noble friend Lord Addington for focusing this are from BAME communities, even though those debate on the proper relationship between elite sport communities make up only 10% of the UK adult and grass roots sport in this country. population. Even more striking is that approximately The National Survey for Wales 2016-17 found that 17% of Basketball England members live in the country’s of the 700,000 population in north Wales where I live, most deprived council wards, as defined by the 190,000 people—27%—aged 16 and above are not Government’s definition of multiple deprivation. Some currently active but want to be more active. So, this 18% of basketball clubs are located in these wards. very day,Chwaraeon Cymru—Sport Wales—is launching Basketball is clearly a sport that reaches parts of Sport North Wales, pioneering a new model. It is the country that other sports cannot reach. As such, it seeking longer-term funding from the Welsh Government delivers all the well-known benefits of sport—good who currently provide £3 million annually across the health, confidence, self-esteem and improved mental six local authorities. Sport North Wales will lead and capacity—to those who have the least going for them co-ordinate sport throughout the region with a single in terms of family income and advantage. For me, mission and purpose; precisely how is yet to be revealed whose professional career over the past 30 years has by today’s press release, but I hope that it follows been concerned mainly with keeping communities safe, along the lines outlined by the noble Lord, Lord basketball offers the unique capability of being able to Moynihan, to preserve community sports facilities. In reach directly into these inner-city, disadvantaged my own home town we have lost two swimming pools communities to improve the life chances of those most and nothing has replaced them. at risk of getting into trouble with the criminal justice I have always been involved in very muddy grass system. By doing this, basketball can play a major role roots sport in north Wales, having played rugby until in keeping communities safe. age disqualified me, coached my team as a WRUqualified GC 73 UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding[18 JANUARY 2018] UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding GC 74 coach to win the North Wales Cup, and then refereed with the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, that there should from Blaenau Ffestiniog to Rhosllanerchrugog. My be a base level of funding for national governing noble friend Lord Addington knows of my afterlife of bodies in all Olympic sports otherwise the development refereeing parliamentary rugby, which is much slower of important areas of sport will be lost. Perhaps in but more violent, from North Island in New Zealand 1996 tae-kwon-do would not have appeared on the list to California in the United States. of supported sports, but Jade Jones MBE was introduced to the sport by her grandfather at the age of eight in I am delighted that Rygbi Gogledd Cymru 1404, the little village of Bodelwyddan in Denbighshire and the date that Owain Glyndwˆr beat the English, which is now has two gold medals under her belt in successive based at Colwyn Bay is currently heading the Welsh Olympics. Premier League, the most senior league under the four regions in Wales. In my youth, north Wales was regarded There is today a thirst for fitness and activity among as soccer territory.Wrexham Football Club was founded young people. Just go outside and see the peloton of in 1864 and is the third oldest professional rugby club cyclists swooping past this House, risking the life and in the world. So a protestant Caernarfonshire and limb of every noble Lord. It is absolutely clear that Anglesey supported Everton in Liverpool, for goodness’ investment in sport will pay back in the future by sake, but what happened to bring rugby players such reducing obesity, diminishing diabetes and, as the as Robbie McBryde and George North out of Anglesey? noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, said, lowering It was the elite Welsh rugby team of the 1970s with dependency on the NHS. Gareth Edwards, Barry John, Phil Bennett and Ray If lottery proceeds are falling, there is an obligation Williams from Wrexham. It became patriotic to play on the Government to step in and invest wisely. So rugby, particularly in the Welsh-speaking areas. So I where is the money coming from? Some sports do not have lived to see how sporting success breeds grass require support. Football’s income from television is roots participation, with clubs springing up in Bala, obscenely high and distorts wages and the transfer Harlech and Menai Bridge. I once had to delay the market. Gambling produces obscene profits for gaming kick-off in Nant Conwy because Twm, the star flanker, companies without their employees even having to was still shearing his sheep on the hill. These and kick a ball or jump a fence. So it could come from, many others were clubs that simply did not exist in maybe not a tax, but certainly sponsorship. I know the 1960s. that the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, wants to get But I have also been lucky enough to be able to take money out of the Home Office and the Foreign Office part in the United Kingdom’s premier Olympic sport and I wish him the greatest luck in that, but it is very of rowing, not so much at grass roots as more semi- important that sport is supported. In the interests of a submerged. The great Sir Steven Redgrave and healthy society there has got to be a rebalancing of Sir Matthew Pinsent scored Britain’s only gold medal resources. Is it not time to be thinking radically? in the Atlanta Olympic Games of 1996 at Lake Lanier. I rowed on that lake with my Chester-based club, Rex, 5.40 pm the following year. Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab): My Lords, there The tally in 1996 over all sports was 15 medals and seems to be a theme coming through and I simply Britain ranked 36th in the world, which is something want to add my voice to the expression of it. Incidentally, that I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, with the previous speaker in mind, I say that one would not approve of. With the leadership of Redgrave former Welsh rugby union referee is following another and Pinsent, with professional coaching and facilities, in this debate, and no doubt some quite heavy influence and with the backing of National Lottery and government will be cast upon the outcome of the debate as a result. funding, the sport of rowing grew and flourished. I have to say, however, that I can trump a few aces, Elite success led the way.Every time we had an Olympic because I in fact played with Barry John at the University success, we had recruits to my Chester club. Indeed, of Wales—I want that on the record of course. I also my club captain’s son, Tom James, won three Olympic played at Lampeter, where the first rugby game was golds in three successive Olympics.Another club member’s ever played in Wales—it was brought there from daughter, Vicky Thornley, won a silver medal along Cambridge, shortly after it originated in Rugby. I with Katherine Grainger in the Rio Olympics. Such is played in the centenary game with a whole host of the increase in the grass roots membership of the Rex Welsh international stars playing against us. I went Rowing Club. I can assure your Lordships that we are down for the 150th anniversary just last year, where I not called Rex for nothing because we are about to kicked off the ball—that was the limit. launch four new boats at the weekend after next—one, It is interesting, as my life has unfolded, that the if I may say so modestly, with my name upon it. I great sports that I have played—cricket, badminton, believe it to be very positive that some noble Lords rugby and anything else that was going—have gradually have been encouraged to row in the annual Parliamentary become more sedentary, ending with snooker. I have Boat Race and have voiced a number of issues raised even given that up, not so much because my sons by British Rowing through the APPG. began to beat me at it but because they began to I appreciate the single-minded purpose of UK Sport pretend that I had beaten them—that is a much more to produce medals and glory for Britain at the forthcoming serious position, I can assure noble Lords. Tokyo Olympics. That is its mission statement and it As far as I see and hear it, the real key to this fulfils it very well, but I am not sure that reducing the discussion is that we have to decide at the beginning of number of sports being supported and cutting off the our thinking—our conceptualisation—whether to look rest without a shilling is the right way forward. I agree for a solution to the admitted need to encourage GC 75 UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding[LORDS] UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding GC 76

[LORD GRIFFITHS OF BURRY PORT] For all of that, it seems to me that public money activity in this sector at the top, through pump-priming should be put into sporting activity for reasons that go in order to set examples that others will follow and to well beyond sport, which have been mentioned in this inspire through great success, or at the bottom. The debate: for health, community cohesion and well-being. noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, talked very eloquently All these things, and not just medals, must be a product about that second approach; I have heard him speak or an outcome. In all those ways, I support those noble on basketball twice now. Lords who have made this point very eloquently and All my sporting activity was in the pre-professional from very different positions in these fields of endeavour. days, before pay, and there was an entirely different I finish by remembering the film “Invictus”, which approach to it. Burry Port, where I come from, has showed South African rugby and Nelson Mandela had no medals in anything, but the playing fields of and all of that. The great moment for me was when Burry Port, like those of Eton, were full of people the rugby players in the South African team—all striving to beat local opponents. There were revenge white—were taken in their bus by the captain of the matches with Tumble over the hill and Pembrey down team to a township. They did not know what to do or the road. My brother was in at 16 playing for Pembrey why they had been brought there, but they showed youth and I played for the University of Wales later kids who kicked a bit of rag around as a football the on. It was all without any money being exchanged at glories of passing the ball and playing rugby. Now the all. Really, it is about the balance between putting South African team has black people in it, and I am money into activities that generate success that then sure it arose from those sorts of beginnings. Participation, inspires others and looking to develop communities revitalising communities and spreading money out with these local rivalries, competitions and the spirit with that must be the sole and overriding objective. I of fellowship—is there anything better than taking to look forward to what the Minister is going to say any field of endeavour with the idea of really knocking about who he played rugby with in his day. your opponents for six, only to enjoy a pint in the pub with them afterwards as you recount tales of derring-do 5.49 pm in days gone by? There is nothing more sensible than TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department that as a pattern for the way you live. Here, of course, I for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of would draw a distinction between the crowds at football Hyde) (Con): My Lords, I am staggering to my feet and rugby. The crowds intermingle at rugby, and you with an old sporting injury, which has come back to make jokes at each other’s expense and that of the haunt me. I, too, thank the noble Lord for securing this opponents around you, whereas in football the police debate. What a marvellous collection of sportsmen help to separate them off from each other. and sportswomen—I should say ex-sportsmen and I wonder about the way such resources as we have ex-sportswomen—we have here to talk about this. It is get channelled out. Why do we favour sports that are an important issue that is being raised. It is particularly very low in terms of participatory potential, such as enjoyable for me as the Minister responding because equestrian sport, when sports such as basketball—which, there have been hardly any questions at all, although in terms of social cohesion, bring people together that is genuinely because it has been a true debate, across all the divides that afflict us socially—are left where people have put their points of view. That is out of the equation? I wish we could recalibrate the quite rare, I have found. way we look at how we distribute such resources as are The timing is especially apt following UK Sport’s available. Whether it is everything as it was last year, announcement last week confirming the medal targets less or whatever, how do we prioritise? The whole for the forthcoming Winter Olympics and Paralympics business of medals leaves me cold. I love having medals in Pyeongchang. It has set a target of five medals in and cheering competitors on, but I cannot see that the Olympics, which would represent Team GB’s best that must be the sole criterion when we look at a ever performance at a Winter Games. ParalympicsGB’s formula for distributing the cash that is available. target of seven medals would be its best performance Tomorrow morning, I will receive a protégé of mine since lottery funding began. Whatever one’s views of who got a job a couple of years ago with the Rugby the current no-compromise mission of UK Sport, I Football Union. His job is to animate communities think that noble Lords will join me in wishing those throughout north London and to interest schools that sports men and women the very best of luck as they do not have a tradition of rugby, and communities compete for medals in South Korea in a few weeks’ that have no playing fields, in the possibilities of time. playing it, especially helping women to play. The Rugby I agree that the noble Lord has raised a subject Football Union no doubt gets some government money; which is worthy of debate—namely, considering the I do not know and do not really care—it is the activity current UK Sport funding model and how it relates to I want to exalt. It is about taking it out of a sporting the strength of sport at the grass-roots level. The base—where the newspapers are full of the rivalries, fantastic successes at recent Olympic and Paralympic the need to win the Six Nations Championship and all Games, exemplified by what the IOC acknowledged as the rest of it—and into the grass roots, where people the greatest Games of modern times at London 2012, play on muddy November days. The noble Lord, Lord have showcased to the world the very best that Britain Thomas, and I have refereed matches in Wales where has to offer. As has been said, the no-compromise you could not see the 25—when it was called the 25. approach delivered the greatest performances in a The rule about kicking into touch left us totally lost: century at Rio 2016, with 67 Olympic and 147 Paralympic when we took our spectacles off you could not see medals, and Britain coming second on both medal whether the ball had bounced into touch or not. tables. We should remember that thanks should also GC 77 UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding[18 JANUARY 2018] UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding GC 78 go to National Lottery players, without whom none of The capacity for long-term planning is part of this would have been possible. Noble Lords who do Team GB and ParalympicsGB’s success. As mentioned not think that medals are the only criteria to consider by the noble Lord, Lord Addington, lottery funding is must acknowledge that the public, and the noble Lord, crucial to UK Sport in making its funding allocations Lord Wasserman, like watching our athletes on the on a four-year basis ahead of each Games, which is podium at these Games. why the DDCMS has underwritten any potential lottery The noble Lord’s Question is right to raise the shortfall so that it can confidently plan ahead of 2020. importance of sport at all levels. The Government’s The lottery is a matter of some concern: lottery interest in areas such as safeguarding, anti-doping and ticket sales were £6.9 billion in 2016-17, which was tackling inactivity is set out in the sport strategy. In lower than in recent years. Nevertheless, it is still the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Addington, I can say fourth best sales performance since the National Lottery that UK Sport is currently planning its next public began in 1994. We expect good cause returns in 2017-18 consultation on its strategic direction for supporting to be broadly similar to those in 2016-17, but we are elite sport post Tokyo, and the results of the consultation concerned and we are looking into what we can do should be available at the end of this year. In 2014, about the National Lottery. Camelot has carried out a UK Sport’sremit was validated by its public consultation comprehensive review of its business in response to at that time. those falling returns, which I welcome as a positive The noble Lord, Lord Addington, particularly asked step.The Minister for Sport recently announced proposals me to define what UK Sport’s mission is. It is currently to ban companies from offering bets on EuroMillions, to, which affects our National Lottery. DDCMS has been “inspire the nation through Olympic and Paralympic success”. working with Camelot and lottery distributors to improve So its remit, in which it has undoubtedly succeeded, awareness of the good causes and projects that benefit was to deliver Olympic and Paralympic medal success. from National Lottery funding. We have underwritten The home countries’ sports councils’ role is to support UK Sport’s lottery funding until 2020, but noble Lords participation and talent development. However, UK will appreciate that it is a big ask to expect the Chancellor Sport also has other responsibilities which are best to guarantee it beyond 2020. As I said before, no delivered at a UK level, such as bidding for and staging funding criteria have been set beyond Tokyo, and UK major sporting events in this country, and hosting Sport will consider the Paris 2024 funding cycle at the major events on home soil that showcase our athletes appropriate time. and deliver an economic impact for the UK. That is Despite how it may appear from newspaper headlines, aligned with our Sporting Future strategy. UK Sport is committed to supporting unfunded Olympic The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, mentioned having and Paralympic sports by offering knowledge sharing, a seat at the table at the highest level of international technical support and services to sports that may wish sport, and UK Sport is there to help secure that. It will to bid for major events in the UK. UK Sport will help to deliver impact through athletes volunteering in consider investment and support for unfunded sports schools and communities, and sharing their knowledge wishing to apply for international federation positions— and expertise with the wider sector. which my noble friend Lord Moynihan told us were so In pursuit of elite success, we have not forgotten important—as well as wider advice,including participation grass-roots sport. The Government, with the lottery, in its international leadership programme. are investing around £1 billion in grass-roots sport UK Sport and Sport England work closely to ensure through Sport England over the current four-year alignment of resources, messaging and support that period to increase participation and activity. To put they can offer on education and development programmes that in perspective, that is nearly three-and-a-half times for sports and sporting talent. They also collaborate as much as the current Olympic cycle amount. Sport on duty of care, organisational culture, conduct, the England’s Active Lives data show that more than implementation of the sports governance code and 60% of people aged 16-plus are regularly active. As the investment in talent and high-performance programmes. noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, said, activity Over the next four years, Sport England is investing is one thing that we ought to consider as important, £225 million in national governing bodies and their because it is best for the health of the nation. If sport work with grass-roots participants, through its core helps with that and helps to get people out of the front market investment programme, as well as £6 million in door on a cold January morning, it is a very good the almost 400 athletes who are not yet podium ready, thing. supported by the Talented Athlete Scholarship Scheme, The latest data from Sport England’s Active Lives providing academic support in areas such as sports survey will be published in March. We hope to see science, medicine, strength, conditioning and performance continued positive levels of activity,which can contribute lifestyle. to physical and mental well-being and individual, social The noble Baroness,Lady Grey-Thompson, mentioned and economic development. activity. I agree with that. The point is that we need to UK Sport’s remit of achieving medal success for educate people about the benefits of activity. If sport the Tokyo cycle is set and performance targets remain helps to do that, then so be it. It might make exercise on track. Annual reviews are held, which give unfunded more fun, for example, but getting out and taking sports the chance to bid with fresh evidence of more exercise is difficult. We need to work on that, performance to obtain UK Sport investment. The I agree. latest annual review decisions will be made on the I thank my noble friend Lord Wasserman for his 31st of this month; of course, they are a matter for spirited advocacy of basketball. He knows of course, UK Sport and in keeping with our arm’s-length principles. that specific funding decisions for individual sports GC 79 UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding[LORDS] UK Sport: Elite Sport Funding GC 80

[LORD ASHTON OF HYDE] consultation taking place this year and I am sure are deliberately not in Ministers’ hands but are confined noble Lords will want to contribute to it. UK Sport to arm’s-length bodies. But he wants money from and Sport England, which work on grass-roots sport, non-DDCMS sources, so I also wish him well on that. work closely together to take into account sport at I was going to mention the medal winners from both levels. We as a Government remain committed to Wales, but I think that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, supporting both elite and grass-roots sport. We will did that. I conclude by emphasising that we acknowledge continue to seek improvements for the benefit of both that there is an issue to be debated, that UK Sport has levels of sport and for the nation as a whole. done a fantastic job in the remit it was given, but that it may not be the correct remit for ever. There is a Committee adjourned at 6.01 pm.