Wednesday Volume 541 29 February 2012 No. 271

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 29 February 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 271 29 FEBRUARY 2012 272

visited General Dynamics on many occasions and it is House of Commons an excellent company. I am pleased to concur with the hon. Gentleman’s sentiment. Wednesday 29 February 2012 Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): Does the Secretary of State believe that restoring the Welsh Development The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Agency brand would reignite inward investment to Wales? PRAYERS Mrs Gillan: I think that—[Interruption.] The personal [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] remarks from a sedentary position have put me off my stride temporarily, even though they were not about me. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that branding is exceedingly important. There is no doubt in the UKTI Oral Answers to Questions report by the Welsh Affairs Committee that the WDA was a great brand for Wales that was well known across the world. I know that many people would like to bring WALES it back. I think that is worth considering, although perhaps in another form. There is no doubt that branding is an important aspect when marketing Wales. The Secretary of State was asked— Inward Investment Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): I join the Secretary of State in marking St David’s day. Will she join me in 1. Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): marking Wales’s magnificent triple crown victory over What steps she is taking to promote Wales as a England on Saturday? I am sure she will have no trouble destination for inward investment. [96367] in doing so. Since coming to office, how much private sector The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): inward investment have the Secretary of State and her You may have noticed, Mr Speaker, that some Members Government helped to bring to Wales? are wearing leek ties or daffodils in advance of St David’s day.May I take this opportunity to wish everybody a happy St David’s day for tomorrow, 1 March? Mrs Gillan: What a magnificent victory that was. It brought a tear to a girl’s eye to see the team doing so I am committed to working with UK Trade & well. As far as the match on Sunday goes, Cardiff were Investment, the Welsh Government and others to improve robbed and they played very well. the level of inward investment that is attracted to Wales. Last week’s report by the Welsh Affairs Committee Inward investment and that side of business life are highlights a number of important issues. In particular, devolved to the Labour Welsh Assembly Government, the need for joint working between this Government as the right hon. Gentleman should know, given that he and the Welsh Government is very clear. was an architect of the legislation. Since coming into government, I have met delegations from Taiwan, China, Gavin Williamson: Does my right hon. Friend welcome Turkey, Japan and Russia to promote Wales as an the Welsh Affairs Committee report and agree with it investment decision. Indeed, I launched the first ever that the Welsh Government should engage more positively trade mission of Welsh businesses to Bangladesh, led by with the UK Government to attract investment to Wales? the Wales Bangladesh chamber of commerce. I stress to the right hon. Gentleman that there needs to be a Mrs Gillan: I can reassure my hon. Friend that I partnership between the UK Government and the Welsh welcome the sterling work of the Welsh Affairs Committee, Government because when making inward investment as I am sure do all Members, given that it was a decisions companies look at the UK as a whole. We unanimous report. It highlights areas that must be need to give them reasons to go to Wales. addressed by the UK Government and the Welsh Government. Recently, I met Nick Baird, the chief Mr Speaker: The Secretary of State’s replies are executive of UKTI, to discuss the response. I have said immensely courteous, but I am afraid that they are a bit right from the start of this Government that I want to long. encourage closer working between the Welsh Government and the UK Government, particularly in the light of some of the disappointing figures in Wales. Mr Hain: I thank the Secretary of State for her reply, but remind her that in the 15 months since the Government Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): General Dynamics spending review, the UK economy has grown by a has celebrated 10 successful years in my constituency. miserable 0.2%—15 times less over the same period Will the Secretary of State congratulate the Labour than the Office for Budget Responsibility’s 3% growth Government, who were instrumental in bringing General prediction in June 2010 after Labour left office. That Dynamics to my constituency? collapse has massively damaged inward investment and jobs in Wales. Is it not high time that the Government Mrs Gillan: I have always said that politicians of all changed course and followed the lead of the Labour parties should co-operate to bring inward investment to Welsh Government with their Jobs Growth Wales scheme, both the United Kingdom and Wales. I have great which provides jobs for 4,000 young people in Wales? pleasure in congratulating any individuals who were Where the Tories are hammering Wales, Labour is involved in bringing General Dynamics to Wales. I have standing up for Wales. 273 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 274

Mrs Gillan: I have to say that I will take no lessons place will ensure stability in the industry and a fair rate from the right hon. Gentleman, particularly given that, of return for investors, and restore confidence to since we came into government, we are investing £1 billion manufacturers. in electrifying the great western main line and putting £60 million into broadband. It is important that both Mr Llwyd: I hear what the Under-Secretary says, but Governments work together. If the First Minister goes can he guarantee that this sort of mess will not happen on a business delegation and brings back business to again and that we can further develop green technology Wales I will be delighted, but I think that we should in Wales, where we are well placed to do that, in my work together—and, for the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency and throughout Wales? We need to develop information, we will be sticking to plan A. those industries, so will he assure the House that we will not again have this kind of mess, which undermines confidence in the whole sector? Feed-in Tariffs Mr Jones: I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that 2. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): What assessment the sector is extremely important to the Welsh economy, she has made of the effect of changes to feed-in tariffs but I am afraid that, as ever, it has been left to the on the Welsh economy. [96368] Conservative party to clear up Labour’s mess.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Given the feed-in tariffs (Mr David Jones): We are continuing to consult and fiasco and this week’s news that big investors in wind engage with the solar industry on changes to the feed-in energy are threatening to take millions of pounds worth tariff scheme and our assessments are ongoing. There of green jobs abroad because they are losing patience are several key innovative businesses in the solar industry over the Government’s shilly-shallying about renewables in Wales and we are committed to ensuring that they policy, how will the Under-Secretary convince companies have a prosperous future. to invest in the installation and manufacture of renewable energy equipment in Wales, securing much-needed jobs Mr Hanson: According to the Department of Energy and reducing our dependence on ever costlier imported and Climate Change’s own figures, the industry is likely gas and oil? to shrink by a third, which means 5,000 jobs, in 2012 as Mr Jones: The Government’s response to the consultation a direct result of Government policies that the Under- does just that: it provides a sustainable framework for Secretary has supported. How many of those jobs will the industry to go ahead and for investors to have a be lost in Wales? Will he put his hand up and say that it proper rate of return. has been a hash from start to finish? The People’s Rail Mr Jones: I would certainly say that it was a hash at its inception because the scheme that the Government 3. Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/ of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member put Co-op): If she will discuss with ministerial colleagues in place was poorly designed and lacked the flexibility the potential benefits of Wales being the test bed of the to respond to changes in the cost of installing PV and in People’s Rail revised governance proposals; and if she the price of electricity. The measures that the Government will make a statement. [96371] are now putting in place in response to the recent consultation will provide consumers with a proper rate The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales of return, of the sort that was originally envisaged. (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has regular discussions with my right hon. Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Does my Friend the Secretary of State for Transport about a hon. Friend agree that the important thing is that there range of transport issues that affect Wales. I am aware is a fair, not an excessive, return? As a result of that, that the right hon. Gentleman spoke to my colleague Italy, France and, in the past week, Germany have the Minister of State for Transport only recently. significantly changed the tariffs, as the Government Alun Michael: I am sure the Minister recognises that have endeavoured to do in the UK. the Welsh Government—led by Carwyn Jones, and including Carl Sargeant as the Minister with responsibility Mr Jones: Yes, of course, and that underlines the fact for local government and transport—are showing a that the scheme was poorly designed from the start. The capacity for innovation and for bringing co-operative Government’s proposals will provide a fair rate of return principles to bear. Would it not be a good idea to for investors. support the Co-operative party’s idea of the People’s Rail, so that railway services in and around Wales are Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): But accountable to the travelling public? Will the Minister this retroactive policy has shattered business confidence support that idea? in Wales. We are set for advances in the green economy, but who will invest when moneys can be wiped out at Mr Jones: The People’s Rail proposals are a helpful the mere flick of a pen in Whitehall? It is simply not contribution to the continuing debate on how we improve good enough, and the Under-Secretary should realise our transport infrastructure—I believe they were first that we are considering a key industry in Wales. floated some four years ago when the Labour party was in power. The Government are currently considering Mr Jones: The right hon. Gentleman’s criticism would our response to the McNulty review, which has identified be more properly directed at the previous Government. ways in which to make the railways more efficient and The measures that the Government have now put in affordable in the longer term. 275 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 276

Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): Rather than setting up from low-paid, part-time workers an example of reducing a consumer mutual, which raises concerns about administrative burdens, or is it simply an example of the accountability to all the people of Wales, will the Government kicking someone after they have thrown Government consider the utility of transferring them on the ground? responsibility for all railways in Wales to the directly democratic body, namely the Welsh Government and Mrs Gillan: I hope the hon. Gentleman has noticed Assembly? that in creating the most competitive tax regime in the G20, which is the aim of the Treasury and this Government, Mr Jones: That is not currently on the agenda, but no we have also taken the lowest paid out of tax. That will doubt the hon. Gentleman will make his representations make a great difference to families and individuals to the Silk commission. across the UK, including in Wales.

Burdens on Business Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): But John Longworth, the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, 4. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What recent says that businesses tell him that they are still not feeling discussions she has had with (a) ministerial colleagues the burden of regulation lifting. Will the Secretary of and (b) others on measures to reduce administrative State listen to business and confirm that the Cabinet burdens for businesses in Wales. [96373] was yesterday lambasted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for not achieving satisfactory growth? 6. Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): What recent discussions she has had with (a) ministerial colleagues Mrs Gillan: Right from the beginning when I was and (b) others on measures to reduce administrative appointed Secretary of State for Wales, I set up a burdens for businesses in Wales. [96375] business advisory group so that I could listen directly to the concerns of business and industry. I hold regular The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): meetings with that group, and as recently as this week I I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues, met the new chief executive of the CBI Wales. I certainly the First Minister and other organisations on reducing listen to what businesses are saying, as do this Government. the regulatory burden on businesses and the public in Wales. Funding Reductions (Women) Fiona Bruce: Does the Secretary of State agree that although some decisions on business regulations are 5. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What devolved, it is vital that the Welsh Government do not assessment she has made of the effects of Government introduce any measures that are seen as a disincentive funding reductions on women in Wales. [96374] to invest in Wales? The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Mrs Gillan: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The We want to put women at the heart of our economic Government—whether the UK or Welsh Government— future. Although we have had to make difficult decisions, must be careful to send signals to business that we are we are ensuring that the reductions made are shared on its side. We must not place any more barriers in the fairly, while still protecting the most vulnerable in society. way of businesses creating jobs in Wales, which is why I was particularly disappointed when the First Minister Jessica Morden: Not only are Welsh women being hit supported the extra financial transactions tax. I am sure particularly hard by the cuts but, as my hon. Friend the the financial services industry in Wales will have been Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) said, on daunted by that. April 6 more than 9,000 families in Wales will discover that they will be hit by a change to working tax credits Chris Kelly: The UK Government are scrapping new that could mean the loss of up to £3,800 a year unless regulations that would have cost businesses more than they increase their hours. Does the Secretary of State £350 million a year and are radically reforming the have any comprehension of how hard it will be for those planning system in England. Many such decisions are families to increase their hours, especially in retail, and devolved to the Welsh Government, but would my right what is she doing to fight their corner? hon. Friend like Labour Ministers in Cardiff to follow suit? Mrs Gillan: As the hon. Lady knows, the Government’s top priority is an economic recovery that provides jobs Mrs Gillan: Yes. We are aiming to be the most business- for everybody, including women. In difficult times, the friendly Government in history. By scrapping new Government have been helping families with the cost of regulations and with the red tape challenge, we have living. For example, we have been freezing council tax, thrown down the gauntlet to all those organisations while the Welsh Labour Government have refused to that put barriers in the way of business. I wrote to the implement a similar policy in Wales, and extending free First Minister about that some time ago—I am still health care and child care. We have increased that waiting for his response, but I am sure he would share entitlement in England. I challenge Labour, in power in my sentiments that we need to encourage and not stifle Wales, to match that record. business. Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): Many of the claims Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): At a made about the effect on women of the reform of the time when unemployment is at a 17-year high and more welfare state in Wales have unfortunately been repeated people than ever are forced into short-term work, is the in reports published yesterday by Cuts Watch Wales Government’s decision to withdraw working tax benefits which, despite making claims about the effect on Wales 277 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 278 of changes to the welfare system, state that there is Mr Jones: This is currently a matter for discussion no evidence to back up those claims. Does the Secretary between the Welsh Assembly Government and the relevant of State agree that it is unfortunate that many public Whitehall Department, and those discussions continue. sector organisations, supported by the taxpayer, have agreed to be mouthpieces for Labour party propaganda St David’s Day on this issue? Mrs Gillan: I always condemn organisations funded 8. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What plans by the taxpayer being propaganda mouthpieces for the her Department has to mark St David’s day. [96377] Labour party, so I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend. He must remember that the Government are The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): providing flexible parental leave, working with employers Tonight my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is to end the travesty of the gender pay gap, establishing a holding a reception for St David’s day. Tomorrow the women’s business council and providing enterprise mentors Welsh flag will be flying over No. 10, and I will be to help more women to start their own businesses. We attending the Back-Bench St David’s day debate and have a proud record on women. [Interruption.] And as welcoming Welsh children from the Dreams and Wishes my right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and charity to the House of Commons and Gwydyr house. Equalities has just joined us on the Front Bench, I Tomorrow I will also be attending a St David’s day would like to offer her my congratulations on her work dinner in London and a church service in the Crypt, at on this front. St Mary Undercroft. I presented the Prime Minister Public Service Delivery with daffodils from the national botanic garden of Wales yesterday, and Gwydyr house is full of daffodils. 7. Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): What recent discussions she has had with (a) ministerial colleagues Mr Speaker: Almost enough material for an and (b) others on the delivery of public services in Adjournment debate. Wales. [96376] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Kevin Brennan: This St David’s day will be tinged (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary with some sadness, as Wales plays a memorial match in of State and I have regular discussions with ministerial my constituency tonight in memory of Gary Speed, the colleagues and Welsh Government Ministers to discuss Wales manager who died so tragically at the age of 42. a wide range of matters, including public services in Money will be raised for a charity called CALM—the Wales. Campaign Against Living Miserably—to help to prevent suicide among young men. Will the Secretary of State Stuart Andrew: Given the reports of patients in Wales hold a collection in support of that charity at her St crossing the border for better health care in England, David’s day event? does my hon. Friend agree that the NHS in Wales is in need of reform and deserves proper funding as in Mrs Gillan: I hope that the memorial match in the England? memory of Gary Speed goes extremely well and that a Mr Jones: Yes indeed. The Government are seeking lot of money is raised for the charity. In answer to the in England to create an NHS that is fit for the 21st hon. Gentleman’s question, I will come back to him and century and that gives greater discretion to professionals let him know, because I would like to ask the people and choice to patients. By contrast, Wales increasingly who work in the Wales Office. We are having a charity has a one-size-fits-all health service that is falling behind called Dreams and Wishes come in on St David’s day the rest of the country. tomorrow. That is what we are focusing on, but I will see what I can do for the hon. Gentleman. [Interruption.] Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): One of the key public services in Wales is housing, but a constituent who Mr Speaker: Order. We could do with a bit of quiet, came to my surgery last week is in work and works a full both out of respect for St David’s day and in order to week but unfortunately is homeless. Were he to resign hear the Chairman of the Select Committee on Welsh from his job, the local authority would be required to Affairs. find him a home, and it would be paid for by the taxpayer. He does not want to do that. What will the David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I wonder Government do to end the manifest unfairness whereby whether the Minister would consider marking St David’s somebody who is in work and paying Child Support day by allowing patients to opt out of the NHS in Wales Agency fees is still homeless? and instead enjoy the lower waiting lists, lower infection rates and better funding that are the hallmark of the Mr Jones: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, as the NHS in Conservative-run England. constituency MP, is making appropriate representations to the Welsh Assembly Government, who are responsible for housing in Wales. Mrs Gillan: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding us, on the eve of St David’s day, of the Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): Another area of differences that are arising because of Labour Government public service delivery is the additional £350 million for policies in Wales. I am sure that his question will be child care tax credits that the coalition Government are heard by many people across Wales. I hope that the delivering. What difference does the Minister think that Welsh Labour Government will emulate our reforms will make to working mothers and mothers trying to get and produce a first-class health service in Wales for all into work? our citizens. 279 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 280

High Speed 2 Tourism

9. Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) 11. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What (PC): What discussions she has had on Barnett recent discussions she has had with (a) ministerial consequentials to Wales for High Speed 2. [96378] colleagues and (b) others on the promotion of tourism in Wales. [96380] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): of State and I have had recent discussions with ministerial As this is Welsh tourism week, I have been out on visits. colleagues in Her Majesty’s Treasury on a range of I also have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues issues, including funding for Wales. and others on the promotion of tourism in Wales. Tourism is primarily a devolved matter for the Welsh Jonathan Edwards: HS2 is clearly an England-only Government but, as usual, we are keen to work with project, yet the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said last them to promote Wales internationally. [Interruption.] week in answer to a question that I had tabled that Mr Speaker: Order. The Secretary of State’s answers Barnett consequentials would be decided after can scarcely be heard, and that is simply not fair. Let us “budgeting and funding arrangements” had been have a bit of order for Mr Mosley. completed. Will the Minister ensure that Wales does not lose out on the £1.9 billion that it should receive as a Stephen Mosley: Thank you, Mr Speaker. result of HS2, by securing guarantees that the project There are huge opportunities for boosting tourism in will be funded via a stream that results in Barnett north Wales by working with the beautiful, historic consequentials? [Interruption.] border town of Chester. Has my right hon. Friend had any discussions with the Welsh Assembly Government Mr Speaker: I hope the Minister caught the thrust of to encourage the joint marketing of our tourism gems that—the Prime Minister was momentarily troubled by on both sides of the Anglo-Welsh border? some sort of insect. Mrs Gillan: I will certainly ensure that my hon. Mr Jones: I did get the thrust of that, Mr Speaker, Friend’s request is on the agenda at my next meeting and there might be some force in the hon. Gentleman’s with the First Minister. I also hope that many people argument were it not for the fact that the rail network in visiting this country, particularly for the Olympic games, Wales is not a devolved issue. As such, there is no force will take the opportunity to visit the many attractions in his argument whatever. on both sides of the border, but especially in Wales. Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): What more could Crime be done to capture the Irish tourist market in Wales, especially north Wales? 10. Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Mrs Gillan: As the hon. Gentleman knows, that is the the Home Department on crime levels in Wales. [96379] responsibility of the Labour Welsh Government, but I will certainly ensure that that matter is brought to the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales attention of Irish Ministers in my conversations with (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary them. of State and I have regular discussions with Home Office Ministers on a range of issues relating to crime in Wales. PRIME MINISTER

Mr David: We have already lost 40 police officers in The Prime Minister was asked— Gwent. Does the Minister believe that this cut in police numbers will help or hinder the fight against crime? Engagements

Mr Jones: I visited Gwent police last week, and I was Q1. [97130] Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): delighted to see that the most recent crime figures show If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday an 11% reduction in crime in that force area. One might 29 February. have thought that, rather than talking Gwent police The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): This morning, down, the hon. Gentleman would offer the force some I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others, support. and, in addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today. Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con): Does the Minister agree that Mr Slaughter: According to Revenue and Customs, policing in Wales will be more effective and more some families earning just £13,000 a year will lose accountable following the election of commissioners in £1,000 a year in tax credits from April. Before the November? election, the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr Duncan Smith), now the Work Mr Jones: Yes I do. I believe that, for the first time, and Pensions Secretary, described our warning that some democratic accountability will be introduced into low-income families would lose tax credits as a lie and the policing process in Wales and throughout the United as irresponsible “scaremongering”. Did he mislead the Kingdom. public? 281 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 282

The Prime Minister: What we have done is increase Edward Miliband: I thank the Prime Minister for that tax credits for the lowest-paid people in our country, answer, but I have to remind him that the Education and we have actually lifted over 1 million low-paid Secretary said: people out of income tax altogether by raising the “The big picture is that there is chilling atmosphere towards personal allowance. If the hon. Gentleman is worried freedom of expression which emanates from the debate around about taxation issues, he should have a word with his Leveson.” candidate for Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, and I hope that the Education Secretary, who is sitting ask whether he is going to pay his taxes. further down the Bench, will have heard the Prime Minister’s words. Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Many Now, let me move on from one area where I hope Irish people were moved by what the Prime Minister there can be cross-party agreement, to an area where said about Bloody Sunday. Given that it is becoming there is not. On Sunday, Lord Crisp, the man who ran increasingly clear that eurozone support for Ireland is the NHS for six years, said about the Prime Minister’s conditional on its saying yes in the referendum, will the Bill: Prime Minister confirm that this country will support “it’s a mess…it’s unnecessary…it misses the point…it’s confused Ireland, whatever it decides? and confusing and…it’s…setting the NHS back.” Why does the Prime Minister think that, with every The Prime Minister: We are certainly very good friends week that goes by, there are yet more damning indictments of the Republic of Ireland and the people of the Republic of his NHS Bill? of Ireland. It is their choice whether to sign the treaty of fiscal union, and their choice whether to have a referendum The Prime Minister: Let me just make one further on that treaty. As in all things, people’s views in a point about the Leveson inquiry, because I think it is referendum should be respected. important. What my right hon. Friend the Education Secretary was saying—and I think it is important for all Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab): Before of us in this House to say—is that while these inquiries turning to other matters, does the Prime Minister agree are going on, it is important for politicians who, let us with me that the allegations made by Deputy Assistant be frank, benefit sometimes when the press are a little Commissioner Sue Akers in the Leveson inquiry about bit less hard hitting than they have been in recent years, widespread corrupt behaviour at the heart of the press to say that we support a free, vibrant, robust press. I do and the police are devastating, and that such behaviour think that that is an important point, which is what my can have no place in the national institutions of our right hon. Friend was saying. country? Does he further agree with me that this underlines Turning to the health reforms, the right hon. Gentleman the importance of the police inquiry, which must get to actually said something last week that I agreed with. He the bottom of these allegations without fear or favour, said: and of the Leveson inquiry itself? “The NHS will have to change. …because of the rise in the age of the population”, The Prime Minister: I completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman about this issue. There is all-party because of the rise in support for the Leveson inquiry, which needs to get on “the number of long-term conditions”, with its work—which it is conducting in a very reasonable and because of the rise in “expectations and costs.” It and thorough way—and also proper support for the sounds a bit familiar. He is right that it has to reform. police inquiry. It is important to make the point that The problem for the Labour party is that it is against there is always a debate about what is right for newspapers the money that needs to go into the NHS, which it says to do to get stories that are in the public interest, but it is irresponsible, and that although it supported competition is hard to think of any circumstances in which it is right and choice in the past, it does not support them any for police officers to take money. more.

Edward Miliband: I thank the Prime Minister for that Edward Miliband: The Prime Minister seems to have answer. On the Leveson inquiry, may I ask him to forgotten the question I asked him; it was about Nigel ensure that, in the weeks and months ahead, none of his Crisp who ran the health service for six years. He was senior Ministers does anything to undermine its work? the chief executive of the national health service and he Would he accept that it was ill-judged of the Education says that the Prime Minister’s Bill is “a mess…and Secretary to say last week that the inquiry was having a confusing”—but the right hon. Gentleman will obviously “chilling” effect on freedom of expression? Does the not want to listen to him. Prime Minister now dissociate himself from those Let me ask the Prime Minister about somebody else, comments, and urge his colleagues, whatever their closeness who appeared on the Conservative party’s platform at to particular newspaper proprietors, not to undermine the spring conference in 2010. He hosted the first speech the Leveson inquiry? of the Health Secretary—he is not here, I do not think—and he advised the Labour Government, that is true. He is The Prime Minister: I answered this question last the GP at the head of the clinical commissioning group week. The Education Secretary, like the rest of the in Tower Hamlets. He wrote to the Prime Minister on Cabinet, fully supports the Leveson inquiry and wants Monday and said this: it to proceed with the very important work that it does. “We care deeply about the patients that we see every day and That is the position of the Education Secretary and the we believe the improvements we all want to see in the NHS can be position of the entire Government. achieved without the bureaucracy generated by the bill.” 283 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 284

[Interruption.] Government Members say no, but this The Prime Minister: He said that 98% of GPs oppose is a man who is in charge of a clinical commissioning the reforms—that was the figure. Let me give him the group. Is it not time that the Prime Minister recognised actual figures. There are 44,000 members of the Royal that he has lost the confidence even of the GPs whom College of General Practitioners. Out of a total of he says he wants to be at the heart of his reforms? 44,000, just 7% responded opposing the Bill. What about the royal college of physiotherapists? Of the The Prime Minister: There are 8,200 GP practices 50,000 in the royal college of physiotherapists, covering 95% of the country implementing the health 2%—[Interruption.] I know that that is enough for the reforms, which is what they want to see happen. The unions to elect him leader of the Labour party, but that right hon. Gentleman asks me if I will listen to those is about as far as it will go. people who ran the NHS over the last decade, so let me give him a selection of people who ran the NHS in the Hon. Members: More! last decade and see what they think of competition. Edward Miliband: Government Members are obviously This is what Lord Darzi said: well trained today, but let me tell them that their support “The right competition for the right reasons can drive us to for the health Bill is digging their own burial at the next achieve more”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 11 October general election. I asked the Prime Minister a specific 2011; Vol. 730, c. 1492.] question. I know, by now, that he does not like to This is what John Hutton said. He was a Health Minister answer the questions, but I just simply asked him who under the last Government—[Interruption.] Opposition supports his Bill, and answer came there none from this Members do not want to listen to Labour Ministers Prime Minister. Let me refresh his memory as to who from when they used to win elections. Anyway, this is opposes his Bill. By the way, it is no good the Deputy what he said: Prime Minister smirking—I do not know whether he “Competition can make the NHS more equitable.”—[Official supports the Bill or opposes it. Report, House of Lords, 11 October 2011; Vol. 730, c. 1569.] The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): I support it. That is the view of a Labour Secretary of State. What about an adviser to the last Labour Government, Julian Edward Miliband: Oh, he supports it! Well there is Le Grand, who specifically looked at competition? This firm leadership for you. is what he said: Let me refresh the Prime Minister’s memory as to “the measured effects of competition have not been trivial…evidence those who want the Bill withdrawn: the Royal College shows that the introduction of competition in the NHS could be credited with saving hundreds of lives.” of General Practitioners; the Royal College of Nursing; the Royal College of Midwives; the Royal College of The truth is that the right hon. Gentleman does not Radiologists; the Faculty of Public Health; the Chartered want to listen to past Labour Ministers because he is Society of Physiotherapy; the Community Practitioners taking a totally opportunistic position in opposition to and Health Visitors Association; and the Patients this Bill. Association. Does it not ever occur to him that, just maybe, they are right and he is wrong? Edward Miliband: The reason that 95% of GPs are now having to implement part of these changes is that The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman did the Prime Minister has imposed them. Dr Everington not mention: the National Association of Primary Care— addresses this in the last line of his letter, where he says: supporting the Bill; the NHS Alliance—supporting the “Your government— Bill; the Association of Chief Executives of Voluntary Organisations—supporting the Bill; the Foundation Trust I believe that this is a letter to the Prime Minister— Network—supporting the Bill; Lord Darzi, a Labour “has interpreted our commitment to our patients as support for Minister—[Interruption.] Who was Lord Darzi? He the bill. It is not”. was the surgeon Labour hired to run the health service. And 98% of those in the Royal College of General Here we are having had four weeks in a row of NHS Practitioners oppose the Bill. I have to say that it is hard questions but not a single question of substance—not to keep track of opposition to this Bill, because in the one. It is all about process, all about politics, never past seven days alone the Royal College of Physicians about the substance. We all know that it is leap year, so has called the first emergency general meeting in its maybe just this once I get to ask the question. We all history about the Bill, and the Prime Minister has lost know what the right hon. Gentleman is against, but is it the support of the British Geriatrics Society and the not time he told us what on earth he is for? Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. So every week that goes by more and more health care Q14. [97144] Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): In my area, organisations come out against this Bill. I have a simple there are plans for 120 metre-high wind turbines question for the Prime Minister: can he now give the between the beautiful villages of New Marske and House a list of significant health organisations that are Upleatham, which are less than a mile apart. Does the still wholehearted supporters of the Bill? Prime Minister agree that such giant turbines should not be built so close to residential areas without local people having a say? The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman specifically said—[Interruption.] This is very important— The Prime Minister: We want to see a balanced [Interruption.] energy policy and there is a place for renewable technologies in such a policy. We are making two changes that I Mr Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister has been think will be welcome to the hon. Gentleman. First, we asked a question, so let us hear the answer. are cutting the subsidy to onshore wind, because I think 285 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 286 that it has been over-subsidised and wasteful of public have got extra drugs through that fund. We promised money. Secondly, when the Localism Act 2011 fully that the number of doctors would grow faster than the comes in, that will give local communities a greater say number of bureaucrats and, since the election, the about issues such as wind turbines. Of course, we tried number of doctors has gone up by 4,000 and the to do that earlier by abolishing the regional spatial number of bureaucrats has gone down by 5,000. That is strategies that the previous Government put in place, what coalition policy is doing for our health service. but we lost that case in the courts so we need the Localism Act to come into force in full. Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): When will the Prime Minister close the loophole for multinational Q2. [97131] Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab): companies that allows the migrant cap to be flouted Earlier, the Prime Minister answered a question from using intra-company transfers, or is that another tough my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith immigration policy that will fall victim to the “curse of (Mr Slaughter) with a little more abuse than he would Clegg”? have wanted. Does the Prime Minister recognise that 200 couples in his constituency with 400 children and The Prime Minister: On this one, my hon. Friend is 600 couples in my constituency with more than 1,500 being unfair. We have a tough migrant cap for migrant children will lose working tax credit, possibly up to the workers, and business said how important it was to have level of £3,800 or more, which can be 25% of their intra-company transfers, but only at relatively high income? Without sounding complacent, can he say how salary levels. That is what we put in place and it he will answer those couples and their children? demonstrates that over time we will be able both to control immigration and to do so in a way that does not The Prime Minister: As the hon. Gentleman knows, damage business. we have had to take difficult decisions because of the enormous debt and deficit that we inherited. In taking Q4. [97133] Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) those decisions, we have protected the poorest families (Lab): We now know that the Government were made by increasing the child tax credit. That is what we have aware of fraud allegations at A4e before the Prime done. We have also helped the poorest who are in work Minister appointed that company’s chairman as by lifting 1 million people out of income tax. The his family tsar. As the Prime Minister is in danger of question must come back to Labour: “You left us with acquiring a reputation for ill-judged personal this mess, what would you do about it?” appointments, will he tell the House what independent checks he believes should be carried out before such Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): This summer, in appointments are made and whether any such checks my constituency of Gloucester, and everywhere around were carried out in respect of Emma Harrison? the country, people will be looking forward with huge excitement to the start of the Olympic games. It is a The Prime Minister: First, let me be absolutely clear great opportunity to celebrate how well the UK manages that I was not aware of any allegations of irregularities these great global events, but not everybody sees it as when Emma Harrison became an adviser on troubled that sort of an opportunity. The general secretary of families to the Government. At the time she was appointed, Unite sees it instead as an opportunity for a general there were no formal investigations into A4e; there was strike. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that just the company’s own probe into irregularities. I think nothing could be further from the spirit of the Olympics that this issue needs to be properly dealt with and I am and nothing could do more damage to the reputation of concerned that subsequent to Emma Harrison’s our country? appointment, information needed to be passed up the line to Ministers more rapidly. I have asked the Cabinet The Prime Minister: I think my hon. Friend speaks Secretary, Sir Jeremy Heywood, to review the guidelines for the whole country about what the general secretary across Government and this particular case. When the of Unite said. Let me quote it directly: right hon. Gentleman talks about the horse having “I’m calling upon the general public to engage in civil disobedience.” bolted, he might want to put into his question the fact That is what he said. Let us remember that Unite is the that Emma Harrison was given a CBE by the previous biggest single donor to the Opposition, providing around Government and that all the allegations that are being a third of their money, and had more of a role than made are into contracts that his Government handed anybody else in putting the right hon. Member for out. A little more transparency about that might be a Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) in his place. It is good thing. not good enough for the Opposition just to put out a tweet; they need to condemn this utterly and start Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Will the Prime turning back the money. Minister join me in paying tribute to the courage of the war photographer Paul Conroy from Totnes, who was Q3. [97132] Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) injured showing the world the horrors of the Syrian (Lab/Co-op): No top-down reorganisation of the NHS, regime? Will he join me in thanking all those who no reduction in front-line police officers and no cuts to helped to secure Mr Conroy’s safe passage to Lebanon? tax credits for low-income families: why does the Prime Minister find it so hard to keep his promises to the The Prime Minister: I certainly join my hon. Friend British public? in doing that. The role that the media play by being in incredibly difficult places such as Homs in Syria to The Prime Minister: We promised to increase spending bring the truth and the news to the world is very on the NHS and we are boosting spending on the NHS. important. That is what Paul Conroy was doing and We promised the cancer drugs fund, and 10,000 people that is what Marie Colvin was doing when she tragically 287 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 288 lost her life. I certainly pay tribute to Paul Conroy and than they would have been under the previous Government’s above all, as my hon. Friend says, to the very brave plans, but clearly we are also being impacted by a higher people who helped to get him out of Syria, many of oil price. whom have paid an incredibly high price. I can tell the House that Paul Conroy is now safe; he has been in our Q7. [97136] Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) embassy in Beirut in Lebanon. He is being properly (Con): This week, the Government took action on looked after and I am sure that soon he will want to unacceptable tax avoidance. Does the Prime Minister come home. agree that the principles of paying a fair share of tax should apply both to banks and to former Mayors of Q5. [97134] Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): London? Last October, the Chancellor announced a new policy The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an important called credit easing. Can the Prime Minister tell us how point. Whether it is Barclays bank or, frankly, Ken many businesses have been helped? Livingstone, people should pay the proper amount of tax, and I hope that Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs The Prime Minister: The Chancellor said at the time will look carefully at all these sorts of cases. Londoners, of the autumn statement that the policy would be in many of whom live in Labour-controlled areas with place in time for the Budget, and that is exactly what is high Labour council taxes, will be pretty angry about going to happen. [Interruption.] what they have seen and will probably conclude that red Ken has been caught red-handed. Mr Speaker: Order. Let us hear Mr Peter Aldous. Q8. [97137] Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): The Q6. [97135] Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): High Institute for Fiscal Studies has reported that the streets across the country, including those in Lowestoft, Government’s tax and benefit changes will hit families Beccles and Bungay in my constituency are facing with children five times harder than those without tough trading conditions at present, including the children. Is that what the Prime Minister means by prospect of a 5.6% increase in business rates. Can the “the most family-friendly Government…ever”? Prime Minister outline what the Government are doing Is it fair, or is it just another broken promise? to support traders to enable them to grow their businesses and create jobs? The Prime Minister: What this Government have done is increase tax credits for the least well-paid; lift The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is right to raise people out of tax; and introduce free nursery care for this issue. There are real concerns about the hollowing two, three and four-year-olds, and expand it for families. out of some of our high streets and the number of All those things have made a difference. empty properties. What we have done is double the Incidentally, the hon. Lady did not mention that small business rate relief scheme, and that has helped an she is sponsored by the Unite union. She could have estimated 330,000 small firms. We are also removing taken this opportunity to condemn Len McCluskey. legal red tape that requires ratepayers to fill in paperwork [Interruption.] to claim that relief, which is something that Labour refused to do when in office. From working with Mary Mr Speaker: Order. Portas, we have a whole plan for how we can try to help reinvigorate our high streets, which is absolutely vital Q9. [97138] Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and for our towns and cities across the country. East Thurrock) (Con): Since the furore about work experience broke out, has my right hon. Friend had any businesses and/or organisations come forward to Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): The Prime support this vitally important and publicly popular Minister might have seen the headlines in the newspapers initiative, which will help young people to get the skills today that the happiest people live in Northern Ireland. that they need to get into work? As the Democratic Unionist party has been the major party of government for the past five years in Northern The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is entirely right: Ireland, we on the DUP Benches are not surprised by the whole country wants to see more young people that. Of course, one thing that overshadows that happiness given the opportunity that work experience provides. is the high and escalating price of petrol and diesel, The good news is that since this row in the pages of our which is the highest not only in the United Kingdom newspapers, we have had expressions of interest from but in the European Union. Can the Prime Minister 200 small and medium-sized employers who want to get bring happiness to all parts of the UK by agreeing to do involved in the programme. It is time for businesses in away with the August fuel tax increase and address fuel Britain, and everyone in Britain who wants to see allowances as soon as possible? people have work experience, to stand up against the Trotskyites of the Right to Work campaign, and perhaps The Prime Minister: I am delighted to hear that the recognise the deafening silence there has been from the people of Northern Ireland are the happiest in the Labour party. United Kingdom, although I have to say that their representatives in the House do not always give that Q10. [97139] Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) impression. Perhaps I have been missing something. We (DUP): Happily, Mr Speaker, I am able to welcome the recognise that families and businesses are continuing to Prime Minister’s commitment to the reform of the feel the pressure from very high prices. We have cut the European convention on human rights and the powers fuel duty and scrapped the automatic fuel duty stabiliser. of the European Court of Human Rights. Will the That has meant that average pump prices are 6p lower Prime Minister give a commitment to allowing this 289 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 290

House a proper debate on the subject when the The Prime Minister: I can certainly give my hon. Brighton declaration is published, and will he ensure Friend that assurance, but first I am sure that the whole that, once again, the principle of subsidiarity is House will want to send the deepest condolences to the respected, and that the British courts have a proper say husband and family of my hon. Friend’s constituent, in what goes on in this country? Penny Hegarty. I know that the Minister of State, Department of Health, my right hon. Friend the Member The Prime Minister: I do want to see the principle of for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), has met local MPs on a subsidiarity get a fairer hearing at Strasbourg—that number of occasions to keep them updated. Clearly, was in the speech I made at the Council of Europe patients have the right to expect far better standards of about reform of the Court—so that it does not become care. I know that the Care Quality Commission and a court of the fourth instance, whereby someone who Monitor have both raised concerns about standards at has already been in front of a local court, a court of the trust. As my hon. Friend says, it is being turned appeal and a supreme court in their country then comes around, but that work needs to be undertaken with all to the ECHR. We do have proposals for reform. On speed. what is debated in this House, we now have the Backbench Business Committee, which has an enormous amount Q12. [97141] Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East of days in this House— Falkirk) (Lab): Is the Prime Minister aware that Graeme Brown, who is the director of Shelter Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Not enough. Scotland, described the proposal for a bedroom tax as “grossly unfair and shows the UK Government is simply failing The Prime Minister: Not enough, I hear. It has more to listen to the voice of reason being put forward by housing than enough in my view, and it can make over a day for professionals, social landlords, MSPs and individuals”? that debate. Does the Prime Minister accept that widows and widowers left in their family home when their children leave and on a low income can lose up to 25% of their housing Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) benefit support if he continues with this? Is he unfeeling, (LD): Does the Prime Minister agree that one of the or is he just determined to get his way? best ways to deliver on our commitment to the fairness agenda is to go ahead as quickly as possible with implementing the coalition’s agreement to raise the tax The Prime Minister: The issue is this: we desperately threshold to £10,000? need to reform housing benefit. If we had not done anything about housing benefit, it was expected to cost over £24 billion a year. As the hon. Gentleman’s own The Prime Minister: The coalition agreement commits welfare spokesman, the right hon. Member for Birmingham, us to real increases in that threshold. We have achieved Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) said, Beveridge that in Budgets over the past two years in spite of the difficult conditions that we face in the economy. I think “would scarcely have believed housing benefit alone is costing the it is a good idea to lift people out of tax. It particularly UK over £20bn a year. That is simply too high.” helps low-paid people, and it particularly helps low-paid I am getting slightly frustrated with these statements in women. principle about reform. The Opposition say they are in favour of a benefit cap, but they vote against it. They say they are in favour of welfare reform; they oppose it. Q11. [97140] Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): The Ministry of Defence They recognise that housing benefit is out of control, is buying tankers from South Korea when the work but they frustrate every attempt to deal with it. could be done here. The MOD says it will Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): On this leap “not consider wider employment, industrial, or economic factors” day, when shy men throughout the country will be in procurement. Why will this arrogant and complacent nervously hoping that their girlfriends might make a Prime Minister not stand up for world-class British commitment to them, may I ask the Prime Minister to industry? give romance a nudge and to remind us and confirm that the reforms made through the welfare system will The Prime Minister: I do stand up for world-class always, always support hard-working families? British industry, and as I said, when I travel the globe, I am very happy to have British Aerospace and Rolls-Royce The Prime Minister: I was wondering where my hon. on an aeroplane with me, promoting Great British Friend was going with that for a minute or two, but she companies. It is just a pity that when I do that, I get is right. It is a leap year, a very special day, when all attacked by the Labour party. sorts of things can happen—all sorts of possibilities. The key thing is that through both our tax system and Q13. [97142] David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) our welfare system we should be encouraging families (Con): Is the Prime Minister aware of the tragic death to come together and stay together, and celebrating of my constituent, Penny Hegarty from Over Kellet? commitment. Penny’s husband, Dr Phil Hegarty, believes that his wife’s death is just one example of systemic Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): Is management failures at the University Hospitals of the Prime Minister aware that the entry clearance office Morecambe Bay NHS Trust. Will the Prime Minister in Abu Dhabi has rejected an application by Mrs Maqsood assure Dr Hegarty and all my constituents that recent Jan to come from Pakistan to attend her granddaughter’s work to improve the management will continue, and wedding in Manchester? Would the right hon. Gentleman that this trust will be turned around? specify what kind of employment a 72-year-old woman 291 Oral Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Oral Answers 292 who does not speak English and has never left Pakistan Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Further to is liable to obtain in my constituency, where unemployment the Prime Minister’s answer to my right hon. Friend the is 10.6%? Will he overrule this barmy decision and Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) on allow Mrs Jan the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to the Leveson inquiry, he is of course absolutely right that attend her granddaughter’s wedding? If the Home Secretary we need a free press, but the nation will not thank him if has said—[Interruption.] he goes along with the suggestion made by Tory peer Lord Hunt, chairman of the Press Complaints Commission, Mr Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman has that the Defamation Bill, which is coming forward in been lucidity itself. I am sure he is bringing the question September, should be used to legislate for a new system. to an end. That would pre-empt the Leveson inquiry. Will the Prime Minister make it clear that he will not do that? Sir Gerald Kaufman: I am; I am bringing it to an end. If the Home Secretary has whispered to the Prime Minister that Mrs Jan can appeal, I should add that the The Prime Minister: I am glad that the hon. Lady wedding is on 2 April and the appeal procedure is too asked that question, because I have absolutely no intention slow to make that possible. of pre-empting the Leveson inquiry in any way at all. I think that if we look back to the debate we had in this The Prime Minister: To answer the right hon. Gentleman House, we will see that both the leader of the Labour very directly, I was not aware of the individual case. party and I said how important it was to trust Leveson There are hundreds of thousands of people who travel to get on with the job and to give every signal that we between Pakistan and Britain every year. We must have want to be able to adopt what is proposed without there tough controls to prevent the abuse of our immigration being regulatory arbitrage between the parties. I think system, but I suggest that he takes up the case individually that there is an understanding on that basis but, given with my hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration, who that there is that understanding, I repeat again that it is has a superb grip on these issues and I am sure will be important that hon. Members on both sides stress the able to give him some satisfaction. importance of a free press to the health of our democracy.

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Under Tony Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Hard-working Blair’s regime, we could sleep safely at night because we families in my constituency are absolutely astonished knew that Lord Prescott would take over if Tony Blair that a benefit cap of some £26,000 is being opposed by was incapacitated. What would happen if the Prime the Labour party. Does my right hon. Friend agree that Minister were incapacitated? we will always make work pay and provide benefits for those who are unable to work? The Prime Minister: I have been waiting for this question for some time, because I know that my hon. Friend has asked almost every Cabinet Minister, including The Prime Minister: I am delighted, Mr Speaker, that the Deputy Prime Minister who, I think, replied that my my hon. Friend caught your eye, because today is the hon. Friend seemed to have a morbid fascination with day that the Welfare Reform Bill becomes an Act and the end of the leader of the Conservative party. All I for the first time we will have a proper cap on welfare. can say is that I have no plans to be incapacitated. That is supported by this side of the House, opposed by that side, but backed by the overwhelming majority of Mr Speaker: We are very relieved. people in our country. 293 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Points of Order 294

Points of Order the Speaker has ever greatly cared about the level of seniority of Whips as far as that goes. Whether or not the hon. Lady is sponsored by Unite, 12.36 pm I emphasise that there is nothing wrong constitutionally in our arrangements with being sponsored by a trade Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): On a point of union, so it is not an accusation. The matter is not— order, Mr Speaker. Further to the Prime Minister’s [Interruption.] Order. The hon. Member for Ealing statement that I am sponsored by the union Unite—I North (Stephen Pound) is a man of magnificent qualities, am grateful that he has waited to hear this—can you but he is in no position to advise the Chair on what is or advise me on how this untruth can be corrected, as I am is not allowed. This is not—I repeat “not” for the not sponsored by Unite, and on what opportunity the benefit of the hon. Gentleman—a point of order for the Prime Minister will be given to correct the record? Chair. That, as I often say, is the beginning and the end of the matter. The hon. Lady has put her concerns on The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Further to the record. that point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe that I was reading something from the Register of Members’Financial Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): On a point of order, Interests, which is that Bolton West constituency Labour Mr Speaker. Following my point of order with you on party received £1,250 from Unite in 2010 and that the Monday about charges for the Clock Tower, do you hon. Lady registered a donation of £2,250 from Unite have any information about whether Members will be in 2010 in the register. Of course, if I have in any way given a vote on that very unfortunate decision to charge got that wrong, I will come back to the House at the people to visit the House of Commons? earliest opportunity. Mr Speaker: No, I have no such information, and I am afraid that it is not a point of order for the Chair. I Mr Speaker: I am most grateful to the hon. Lady for have known the hon. Gentleman for over 20 years— her point of order, to the Prime Minister for his response probably nearer to 25—so I know what a tenacious to it and for this opportunity to set out the position. Let terrier he is, but he must raise these matters in an me say this for the benefit of the hon. Lady and the orderly way. I think that we have got his point; he has House: whether or not she is sponsored by Unite, and I got my response; and at least as far as today is concerned emphasis whether or not she is—I am happy to accept we will leave it there. that she is not if that is the factual position, because I If there are no further points of order, we come now do not know—[Interruption.] I do not need any help to the ten-minute rule Bill, for which the hon. Member from a junior Government Whip—he would not know for Wycombe (Steve Baker) has been so patiently waiting. where to start—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for It would be helpful if people going past him would do Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) says that he is a senior so quickly and, preferably, quietly, so that we can hear Government Whip—[Interruption.] I do not think that from Mr Steve Baker. 295 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Financial Institutions (Reform) 296

Financial Institutions (Reform) I believe that profit is right and proper when earned through voluntary exchange without force or fraud. Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order Bonuses based on just profits are a good thing. If some No. 23) people gain but the costs of their actions are forced on to others through state power, however, that is an injustice. 12.40 pm It is one from which our constituents are still smarting, and it is one which is causing people to question the Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I beg to move, basis of our social system. If we are to prosper, we must That leave be given to bring in a Bill to enforce strict liability preserve and extend commercial freedom, promote personal, on directors of financial institutions; to require directors of professional and mutual responsibility and facilitate financial institutions to post personal bonds as additional bank capital; to require personal bonds and bonuses to be treated as enterprise under the rule of law. In banking, a business additional bank capital; to make provision for the insolvency of that is categorically different from others, we must financial institutions; to establish a financial crimes investigation ensure that those who stand to gain also bear the risks unit; and for connected purposes. of their actions. I therefore propose the following measures. I draw the House’s attention to my registered interest First, on the liability of bankers, board members of in Cobden Partners. financial institutions should be strictly liable for losses—that In a developed society such as ours, we need a vibrant, is, liable without the need to prove fault on their part. In dynamic, reliable and robust means of executing payments the event of bank insolvency, board members would be and intermediating savings to entrepreneurs: we need a subject to unlimited personal liability.Their own wealth—all good banking system. Unfortunately, as the Governor assets, houses, pensions and so on—would be at risk. In of the Bank of England said in his 2010 Bagehot addition, bank directors would be required to post lecture: personal bonds that would be potentially forfeit in the event of losses, not as a cap but as a guarantee. Bonds “Of all the many ways of organising banking, the worst is the one we have today.” should be at £2 million, adjusted for inflation, or 50% of net wealth. Any board member who resigned would still Elsewhere in that speech, he said: be subject to unlimited liability and the requirement to “At the heart of this crisis was the expansion and subsequent post bonds for a period of two years following their contraction of the balance sheet of the banking system.” resignation, so that they could not run away from We might well discuss why balance sheets expanded so impending disaster. far and which factors and choices drove that expansion, Secondly, bonus payments would be deferred for a but for today’s purposes it suffices to quote Martin period of five years. The bonus pool would be invested Wolf, writing in the Financial Times on 9 November in escrow accounts, with appropriate provision for stocks, 2010, who said: dividends, stock options and cash. “The essence of the contemporary monetary system is the creation of money out of nothing, by private banks’ often foolish Thirdly, personal bonds and the bonus pool would be lending.” used to make good bank losses. Should a bank report losses over any period, they would be borne by beneficiaries Further, on 23 February this year the Bank of England’s of the bonus pool in the first instance. Further losses executive director for financial stability, Andy Haldane, would be borne by board members and made good published an article in the London Review of Books,in from their posted bonds. Any further losses would then which he wrote: be borne by shareholders in the usual way. Finally, in “The continuing backlash against banking, as evidenced in the event of insolvency, bank directors would be exposed popular protests on Wall Street and in the City of London, is a response not just to the fact that the world is poorer, as pre-crisis without limit. riches have turned to rags, but to the way these riches were Additional measures would cover the definition of privatised, while the rags are being socialised. This disparity is core capital and accounting standards, provide a robust nothing new. Neither in the main, is it anyone’s fault. For the definition of bank insolvency, require a new fast-track most part the financial crisis was not the result of individual receivership regime for banks, which is long overdue, wickedness or folly. It is not a story of pantomime villains and and produce a programme to end state support and village idiots. Instead the crisis reflected a failure of the entire system of financial sector governance.” return financial institutions to normal operations. There would also be provisions relating to EU passporting It seems that there is an increasingly unified message rules and provisions for criminal investigations and coming out of the Bank of England. criminal liability. We must rise above that inadequate story of pantomime Those measures are targeted at banks, which are villains. Entrepreneurial error and gaming rules in the categorically different from other businesses, but whether pursuit of self-interest are nothing new, and the system they can be achieved without extending the scope of the should have been able to cope. It is that foolish lending Bill to any company regulated under the Financial of new money, that failure of the entire system of Services and Markets Act 2000 is a matter for debate. financial sector governance, which must be addressed. To promote diversity and competition, wholly owned What is to be done? Mr Haldane supplied an answer. mutuals and new small banks might be exempted from He wrote: certain provisions, such as the requirement to post “The best proposals for reform are those which aim to reshape bonds. risk-taking incentives on a durable basis”. The obvious question is who would become a director That is what my Bill intends to do. It aims to reconnect of a bank under a regime of unlimited liability. Actually, risk and reward in the financial system, and to deal with unlimited liability banking has an illustrious history. the moral hazard that allowed the privatisation of vast The two greatest bankers of the 19th century, Nathan gains and the projection of vast risks and losses on to Rothschild and J. P. Morgan, both operated highly the public. successfully under unlimited liability. It made them 297 Financial Institutions (Reform) 29 FEBRUARY 2012 298 conservative in their risk-taking and reassured Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and counterparties who appreciated what they stood to lose Governance if a deal went wrong. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) for reminding Emergency debate (Standing Order No. 24) me that unlimited liability partnerships were relatively common until the 1980s. 12.51 pm The principle of unlimited liability for directors in certain circumstances was placed on a statutory basis in Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I beg to move, 1929 and remains in section 232 of the Companies Act That this House has considered the matter of the legal and 2006. My Bill would make bank directors’ duties openly other action now to be taken by the Government in upholding the rule of law and protecting UK interests in respect of the nature enforceable. Let us not forget that, as colleagues in all and content of the Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance parts of the House will know, banks are often quick to in the Economic and Monetary Union. require small business directors to provide personal, Thank you, Mr Speaker, for approving my application secured guarantees. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for this debate. I am also deeply grateful to all those for the gander. Members—some 100 or so—who rose so spontaneously Members will have seen that both HSBC and Lloyds and strongly to support the proposal that I put to the have been engaged in bonus clawbacks, and that, too, House yesterday afternoon. This is only the fifth emergency establishes the principle that bonuses should be at risk debate since 2001. The debate is about the rule of law: in the event of losses and damage. The banking system not only the rule of law as it affects the United Kingdom is, after all, capable of generating losses so large as to but, inevitably, the rule of law in Europe as a whole. The threaten our entire economic system. Prime Minister, to his great credit, rightly exercised the Hard-working families and individuals paying tax veto to protect UK interests, but this is not simply a out of typically modest incomes must never again suffer question of the single market and financial services, the injustice of carrying the risks, and consequences of however important they may be to the UK economy. risks, taken in the pursuit of often enormous private The rule of law is inseparable from democracy, which, returns. Risks must fall to those who take them. Instead based on freedom of choice, leads to the making of law of vicarious liability of taxpayers, there must be through general elections in line with the wishes of the responsibility in the banking system. The Bill represents voters. That is as important as it is simple. Unfortunately, an opportunity to free the banking sector and the the European Union, despite its much-vaunted claims public from regulatory capture and lobbying. It could and aspirations, has increasingly departed from democratic raise standards from the bottom up, through the principles and from the rule of law in the pursuit of preservation and extension of commercial freedom and ideology.We are now witnessing ever-increasing tendencies the development of professional, personal and mutual towards bureaucracy, and even the imposition of responsibility. technocratic Governments on individual member states, The Prime Minister has called for a responsibility as in Italy and Greece. Yesterday, as it has in the recent revolution, and that is what this Bill would provide. It past, the Bundestag voted on European bail-outs. According would end the culture of rewards for failing in the to opinion polls, about 80% of the German people are banking system and establish a basis on which London against the bail-outs, yet the German Government and could continue to grow into the future as the world’s the Bundestag passed the proposals by a massive majority. leading trustworthy financial centre. It is time for us to say to bankers, “Put your money where your mouth is. Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): This line By all means make a fortune, but if you want the about European technocrats imposing technocratic reward, bear the risks.” Governments all over the place is very fashionable. Question put and agreed to. However, the truth is that the current crisis, which is Ordered, very serious—the hon. Gentleman is right to hold this emergency debate—is about the raw power of politics. That Steve Baker, Mr Douglas Carswell, Ian Paisley, It is about the politics in Germany in not wanting to Peter Aldous and Mr Richard Bacon present the Bill. bail out Greece; the politics here; the politics in Greece, Steve Baker accordingly presented the Bill. where people voted pretty overwhelmingly to accept the Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on bail-out package, with parties splitting up; and the Friday 27 April, and to be printed (Bill 312). politics in Italy, where people dumped the wretched Berlusconi and put in quite a good guy, Monti, for the time being. The Commission is not involved in this; the technocrats are out of the game; the Eurocrats are off the pitch. It is about raw politics. We are in the driving seat, and the hon. Gentleman might be as well.

Mr Cash: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who makes an important point. However, this is not merely about technocrats but about the brutal fact that the political game as it is now being played is increasingly coercive. That is part of the problem that I shall address.

Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): Following yesterday’s announcement of the Irish referendum, does my hon. Friend share my concern that if the result is the wrong 299 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 300 Governance Governance one as far as the European establishment are concerned, union. In effect, they say that the solution to the problem it will be ignored and overruled by some method or is the European Parliament, rather than the national another? Parliaments, although they do want us to be involved so that we can sign our own suicide note. On economic Mr Cash: I do indeed. A new rule is being imposed matters and the multi-annual surveillance framework, through the arrangements under this treaty which involves they want more money to be spent, irrespective of the a kind of qualified majority voting for referendums failure of the European economic systems that they whereby if member states do not have the requisite have put in place. The Minister for Europe, who was at number of referendums in which they say that they do that meeting, will recall that he, I and others who were not want the treaty, they will simply be ignored. I hope being realistic about this matter were simply astonished that when it comes down to it and the Irish people have by the continuing stream of determination to seek more this explained to them, that will be a spur to their voting and more money for the European Union, through the no, because people are being taken for a ride. financial transaction tax, by increasing its resources and through the common commercial tax base. Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this emergency Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab): debate. Does he share my concern that with democracy No one can beat the Chairman of the European Scrutiny having been suspended, in effect, in two countries, with Committee for diligence. However, I will not be staying a deepening democratic deficit across the eurozone as to take part in this debate for one reason: I am disappointed rules are bent, and with a eurozone fiscal compact that at his timing. The Committee has yet to hear from the seems to undermine the EU institutions, we could fast Financial Secretary to the Treasury, we have not yet be reaching a tipping point as regards the EU’s credibility finished our evidence sessions and we have not yet and legitimacy? presented our report. I know that the Government are desperate for something to fill the gap in this debating Mr Cash: Absolutely. For those of us who have been hall, which has frankly turned into a disappointing— critical of the European Union, but not of Europe, because we believe that we need stability and prosperity The Vice-Chamberlain of Her Majesty’s Household in Europe, my hon. Friend’s remarks are entirely justified. (Mr Mark Francois): Do you think we put him up to it? We are now facing the breaking of the rule of law through the imposition of European rules. It is an Michael Connarty: I am not immune to the value of extraordinary paradox that the law should be used to the Whips, but I honestly believe that they have got break the principle of law itself. themselves into such a situation that they have allowed even this debate because they are desperate to fill the Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): How is the hon. Order Paper. Gentleman going to vote on this motion? As I understand Mr Speaker: Order. First, the hon. Gentleman’s it, his idea is that the treaty should not go forward, but intervention is too long. It is very enjoyable, but too if the motion is agreed to, we will have decided that we long. Secondly, although I do not usually comment on have considered the matter, and the Government will the content of debates at all, I feel that I must do so for therefore be able to proceed with the treaty. the benefit of the House. I know that it will please the senior Government Whip—I must get my seniority Mr Cash: The hon. Gentleman is rather missing the right—when I make the point that this debate was point. The question before the House is that we should granted by me. It was nothing whatever to do with any have a proper debate about legality. There will not be a Whip, senior or junior, and that is the end of it. vote, as far as I am concerned, because we need to have an open discussion among Members of Parliament, not Chris Bryant: On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Of only in the European Scrutiny Committee, as has been course, what you say is absolutely true, but you would the case so far. We have heard evidence from many not have granted this debate unless 100 Members had distinguished lawyers and economists, and from the stood up. My hon. Friend the Member for Linlithgow Minister for Europe, although sadly, and deeply regrettably, and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) is absolutely right not from the Foreign Secretary, who has twice declined to say that a lot of Tory Back Benchers have been dying to come before us. He did say that he would come on for anything other than the complete vacuum— 27 March, but that is far too late for the purposes of our proceedings. The most important thing is that we have Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What rubbish! an open and transparent debate about questions that otherwise would not get across to Members of Parliament, Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman said so last night let alone to the people at large. to me in the gym. They are dying for anything other I have just spent two days in Brussels as Chairman of than the absolute vacuum that there has been in the the Committee, with my hon. Friend the Member for business in this, the longest parliamentary Session since Hertsmere (Mr Clappison). We had an extremely the Long Parliament. constructive dialogue with members from the national Mr Speaker: That is an interesting point, like many of Parliaments and Members of the European Parliament. the hon. Gentleman’s points, but it is not a point of The only remedy that is provided in this time of economic order for the Chair, as he knows perfectly well. and, I submit, political crisis in Europe is more Europe, not less. That completely misses the point. Mr Cash: That was not really a point worthy of As I discovered only a few months ago at the multi-annual comment, but I will certainly reply to the hon. Member surveillance framework meeting, some people want further for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty), European institutional change towards greater political who is my colleague on the European Scrutiny Committee. 301 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 302 Governance Governance [Mr Cash] Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): It is quite right to have this debate as it is urgent and on a matter The question of legality has already been canvassed. of great moment. Does my hon. Friend think that there The Government have demonstrated that in the letter is any way in which 25 countries can construct a treaty written by Sir Jon Cunliffe, on their instruction, to the that presumes to use the EU institutions that belong to secretary-general of the European Council, which expresses the 27 member states as a whole, without having an severe reservations about and, in effect, disputes the adverse or substantial impact on the UK? Should we advice of the legal adviser to the European Council. not be warning our Prime Minister of that threat before Without wishing to prejudice what the European Scrutiny he negotiates? Committee may conclude in our report, the fact is that there is already sufficient notice of the concerns over Mr Cash: Absolutely. Given that the Prime Minister legality for the matter to be considered by the whole is going to the Council tomorrow, where it is inconceivable House, rather than just in the Committee, as important that this matter will not be raised, and that the ratification as that is. There is one simple reason for that: silence or process is under way, it is important to get that point on acquiescence can be assumed to be consent. I will the record. I believe the arguments to be self-evident. explain that point in a moment. While the question of legality is allowed to continue Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I am enjoying this without challenge, and while it is decided whether the interesting debate. It is an opportunity to air some key European Court of Justice should be called upon to issues. Why does the European Scrutiny Committee make a judgment about this matter, which will itself meet in private? It would be more helpful if it was open take time, we are depending on the action, legal or to us all more often. otherwise, of the Prime Minister, who is going to the Council tomorrow. It is therefore important for us to at Mr Cash: We have periodically sat in public, but then least indicate our view in this debate, in amplification of the position has been reversed. That depends on what is what the European Scrutiny Committee is considering decided by the House as a whole, because these matters and what it may yet conclude. I cannot make any relate to the Standing Orders. I see that the Leader of assumptions about what its conclusion will be. We have the House is here. He knows how vexed this question is. certainly had the most powerful evidence from the likes We have gone backwards and forwards on it. However, of Professor Paul Craig, who is by no means unknown the issues that we are discussing have been discussed in European Union circles as a person of immense extensively in public. My hon. Friend is more than stature. welcome to come along if he wants to listen to any of our sessions. [Interruption.] As my hon. Friend the Michael Connarty: I am about to leave the Chamber, Member for Rochester and Strood (Mark Reckless) has because I believe that this is not the right time to debate just indicated, if he does not want to come along, he can something that we are considering in the European read the transcript. I have copies of it here if he wants Scrutiny Committee. I am used to all-party Back-Bench to look at it. I do not think that anyone can dispute the Committees being run as the fiefdom of the Chair. fact that the information is out there. However, as a former Chair of the European Scrutiny The question of when action needs to be taken is Committee, I think that it is extremely discourteous, highly relevant in determining whether the Government when we have not finished our inquiry or published our are seen to acquiesce in decisions that are being taken report, to have a debate on something that the Chair of by other Parliaments, which, as my right hon. Friend the Committee sees as a matter of interest. It is wrong the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) said, will to do that and I think that it should be discussed in the affect us vitally. Committee. I am now going to read my papers for the Committee sitting at 2 o’clock so that we can have some debate. Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP) rose—

Mr Cash: I will reply to that point simply by saying Mr Speaker: Order. Before the hon. Member for that it is important that we, as a House, consider Stone (Mr Cash) takes an intervention, may I say that it matters as they are going on concurrently. There should is always a privilege to listen to his speeches, and today be no presumption that other Members of the House is no exception, but gently point out that about a dozen necessarily know the detail of the matters that we are people wish to speak? I therefore confidently anticipate discussing. that he is approaching the conclusion of his remarks.

Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): May I Mr Dodds: I congratulate the hon. Member for Stone reinforce my hon. Friend’s point that it is important for (Mr Cash) on securing the debate. I think that it is right the House as a whole, and indeed for departmental and proper that the whole House considers such matters. Select Committees, to have thematic debates about issues On the Irish referendum, will he confirm that the rules that arise from the EU? Such debates should happen at have been rigged so that if 12—never mind the rest— an earlier stage than they do, which so often seems to be eurozone countries approve, the pact will be deemed to at the last minute. I agree with him on that point. be ratified?

Mr Cash: There is also the important question of Mr Cash: Absolutely. I do not know whether the whether action might need to be taken on the advice of right hon. Gentleman was in the Chamber at the time, the Attorney-General in relation to the ratification process, but I referred to that in reply to another colleague. We which, as I shall explain in a moment, was initiated by are effectively having a new qualified majority voting the German vote yesterday. system for referendums. 303 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 304 Governance Governance The catalogue of breaches of the spirit and the specific There is an increasing tendency by Germany to impose legal requirements were epitomised in Madame Lagarde’s its will on other member states, but it should not be remarks on 17 December 2010 about the first bail-out forgotten that although Germany pays vast sums into fund, otherwise known as the EFSM—the European the European Union, it benefits enormously from that, financial stabilisation mechanism. She said: and it could be argued that both French and German “We violated all the rules because we wanted to close ranks banks have played roulette with the Greek economy, and really rescue the euro zone.” and are now, through the rules and the treaty, seeking to That is the objective and the method. She is now head obtain repayment and bolster their own banks and their of the International Monetary Fund, and we are faced own economies by imposing new rules to suit their with the prospect of the United Kingdom being expected requirements. Germany, of course, wants to help the to contribute to the IMF for what everybody knows is a euro. It has an enormous investment in it, but I would back-door arrangement to underpin and guarantee the argue that the tendencies to coercion are not in the bail-outs in the European Union, which the IMF was interests of Germany, the European Union or the United not set up to provide, as the United States and other Kingdom. Indeed, today, we read that the constitutional countries have made clear. court in Germany yesterday blocked the powers of a special parliamentary panel to fast-track emergency Indeed, Germany and France broke the stability and decisions affecting the rescue fund. growth pact as it was originally instituted. Now we have The new treaty is described as the “treaty on stability, a new feature in the big political landscape: in the co-ordination and governance” in the EU, yet it is not, pursuit of a tax and fiscal policy and compliance with a contrary to what the Opposition said at an earlier stage, so-called golden rule to balance their budgets by a form an EU treaty. The Lisbon treaty lays down specific of coercion, 25 member states of the European Union requirements before changes can take place. They specify have now come up with an agreement to increase the that the rules shall not be changed unless everyone powers of the stability and growth pact as it applies to agrees. The false assumption underlying the new treaty them, irrespective of whether a country held a referendum between the 25 is that, despite the failure to achieve and voted no, as the right hon. Member for Belfast unanimity, and even though the rules on enhanced North (Mr Dodds) just suggested. The vote would co-operation have not been used, they claim that it simply be swept away by a majority vote of the other remains legitimate to obtain those ends by a different countries, which insisted on applying the golden rule. route. I put that to the Minister for Europe the other One is bound to ask what kind of golden rule it is and day—namely that the treaty is based on the dangerous whether it is not possible for individual countries to assumption that the end justifies the means, and that balance their budgets out of self-interest and through they would argue that, even if it is unlawful, the requirement their own democratic decisions, rather than having a to introduce the treaty for political reasons overrides rule imposed on them in pursuit of the ideology of the law. The question is whether it is lawful for the EU economic and political union. Indeed, the imposition of institutions, such as the Commission and European such a rule will, of itself, not balance the budgets Court, to be involved in such an agreement. anyway, as has been found in the past. This is using rules of law to breach the rule of law. The new treaty is the triumph of expediency over the law. Professor Paul Craig sets out his arguments in The real solution to the European crisis, which is not 11 pages of carefully analysed argument. I am certain confined to the eurozone and deeply affects the United that the Government know all that and I am glad that Kingdom, is that the levels of public expenditure, which the Attorney-General is here. If he wishes to intervene, led to the breaches of the criteria in the treaties, can be I shall be only too happy. As a former shadow Attorney- solved only by generating growth and giving oxygen to General, I am sure that my right hon. and learned small and medium-sized businesses, for example, through Friend knows the parameters of the unlawfulness of deregulating the massive over-regulation and multiplicity this treaty, which is why I suggested that he should come of laws, such as the working time directive, among today. many others. The list is vast. I believe profoundly that the Government know that Yet again, the whole treaty is a vain attempt to the treaty is unlawful and, in the words of Professor sacrifice practicality and democracy on the altar of Paul Craig, it is important to consider whether it can ideology, just as the referendums in Ireland, France, Holland and so on were all simply thrown away. “confer new functions on EU institutions.” He continues: Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Will the hon. “I believe this would be contrary to the existing Lisbon treaty Gentleman give way? and to legal principle.” He then examines articles 7 and 8, which I have no time Mr Cash: I will not give way again. I have listened to to go into, as well as articles 3(2) and 273. They all raise what Mr Speaker has said and I have no intention of questions that are before the European Scrutiny Committee giving way. I have given way a great deal already, as I am about detailed matters, which we will tackle in due sure Mr Speaker appreciates. course in our report. Even today, the European Central Bank is departing from its established rules in providing what some suggest Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): Will my hon. is as much as a trillion euros of guarantees, and flooding Friend encourage people who wish to find out more to the markets with unearned money to support countries visit the European Scrutiny Committee’s website at which are failing to run their economies properly. There parliament.uk/ESCOM? is a further problem, which is an increasing trend towards coercion, again in pursuit of ideology. Mr Cash: I certainly would, as I said earlier. 305 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 306 Governance Governance [Mr Cash] Minister vetoed the use of the European institutions. The Foreign Secretary was categorical in his assertion Angela Merkel is quoted in The Wall Street Journal a that EU institutions were reserved for the use of the 27. few days ago as saying: He stated: “As Chancellor of Germany, I should and sometimes must “What we are clear about is this, that the institutions of the take risks but I cannot embark on an adventure.” European Union belong to the 27 member states”. I cannot think of any more dangerous adventure than On the eve of the January European Council, the Secretary moving away from the rule of law and inviting the of State for Work and Pensions, who is listened to tendency to coercion, which is increasingly evident in closely on those issues by Conservative Members, could German policy making. Indeed, I believe that new rules not have been clearer. He said: of law are being asserted to break the rule of law. I am “The fact is the prime minister vetoed them using the institutions”. sorry to say that in Germany they seem to believe in The Chancellor took to the airwaves just hours after the government by rule. We believe in government by consent. January European Council ended, saying, without hesitation The process will not work. We are now in the period and seemingly without equivocation: of a phoney war. Those who have seen the play “Three “If we had signed this treaty…we would have found the full Days in May”, about 1940, may well wonder whether it force of the…European Court, the European Commission, all is now obvious that, if we were to acquiesce in imposing these institutions enforcing those treaties, using that opportunity the new and unacceptable rules, and in using EU to undermine Britain’s interests…We were not prepared to let that institutions, that would become a new process of happen”. appeasement. Fortunately for us, in those dark days, Churchill refused to accept Halifax’s advice at the end Martin Horwood: The hon. Lady makes a robust call of that fateful month. for clarity on policy. Can she confirm whether the Labour party is in favour or against the use of EU The letter that the Prime Minister has sent through institutions by the 26? Sir Jon Cunliffe, to the secretary-general of the European Council makes it clear that we have serious reservations. Emma Reynolds: If only the position of the Liberal We now have two Europes, both built on sand. It is Democrats were clear on that matter—[Interruption.] I essential that we have a referendum in this country so will come to that. that the people can have their say because there are such profound questions— There was a guarantee from the top of the Government that EU institutions would not be used—I hesitate to Mr Buckland: On what? describe it as a “cast-iron” guarantee, because it might upset some Conservative Members, but none the less, the position seemed to be clear. The evidence seemed Mr Cash: On what kind of Europe we want. It is compelling and the Government seemed to be clear increasingly obvious that the position has become what they were saying, but how quickly things unacceptable and that the rule of law itself is now in unravelled—on the European Commission, on the use jeopardy. We are involved and we must have a referendum of the buildings and on the role of the European Court on our relationship with the EU. However, first the of Justice. One by one, the Government’s guarantees Government must decide what action they will take faded into yesterday’s headlines, and their empty rhetoric about the challenge to the rule of law in Europe. They was painfully exposed. must put referral to the European Court of Justice firmly on the agenda, follow that through and, at the Mr Baron: The shadow Minister will accept that the same time, reassess our policy towards the European fiscal compact is designed to save the euro. Could we Union and insist on a renegotiation of the treaties to therefore have clarity on the official Opposition’s position ensure that the United Kingdom is not found wanting. on the euro? Given that all the economic evidence and the 85 currency devaluations since the second world war 1.20 pm show that countries that have left a currency bloc benefit, and given that Greece desperately needs a devaluation, Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): will she explain why she supports the cry to save the I congratulate the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) euro when that policy serves only to make the austerity on his innovative use of House procedures to secure this packages worse? debate. In fact, it would have been unnecessary for him to use such innovation if the Government agreed to Emma Reynolds: Unlike the hon. Gentleman, the re-establish the pre-Council debates that Labour held Opposition believe that the stability and preservation of when it was in government. the eurozone is in our country’s interests. If those I welcome the opportunity to debate this important countries took on their former currencies, there could issue. The Opposition would not usually want to intrude be a disastrous impact on our economy. I do not agree on the private grief of the Conservative party, or indeed with him. of the coalition, but we nevertheless have a duty to David Cameron walked out of the negotiation at point out the inconsistencies in the Government’s position. the— I might not always agree with the hon. Gentleman, but I sympathise with him today, because the only thing that Mr Bone: Who? is clear is that the Government’s position is manifestly unclear. Emma Reynolds: I am sorry. I meant the Prime Minister. The fighting talk we heard from the Government in I do apologise. December and January flies in the face of reality. Ministers loyally and repeatedly rehearse the script that the Prime Mr Baron: Will the shadow Minister give way? 307 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 308 Governance Governance Emma Reynolds: Not for a minute—I have taken a “Well it clearly would be ludicrous for the 26, which is pretty couple of interventions already. well the whole of the European Union with the exception of only one member state, to completely reinvent or recreate a whole The Prime Minister walked out of the negotiation at panoply of new institutions.” the December Council with no additional guarantees or Perhaps there is more agreement between Martin Callanan safeguards to protect British interests; no protections and the Deputy Prime Minister than first meets they on the single market; no additional safeguards for financial eye. They both believe, as the Opposition do, that the services; and not even a seat at the table of eurozone Government have flip-flopped. Despite their initial bravado, meetings to ensure that we had a voice, if not a vote. In they have been unable to veto the use of the institutions. short, he gained nothing apart from the short-lived praise of some Conservative Back Benchers, but even that is changing. Henry Smith: I have waited patiently since the intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Article 8 of the new treaty states that the Commission, Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) to hear exactly the European Court of Justice and the buildings will all what the official Opposition policy is on the fiscal have a part to play in the working of the fiscal compact. treaty. Incidentally, is it still official Opposition policy In fact, the Government’s representative in Brussels, to join the euro? Sir Jon Cunliffe, stated in a letter to the European Council that articles 3, 7 and 8 all make explicit reference Emma Reynolds: The shadow Chancellor has made it to the role of the EU institutions in the fiscal compact. clear that we do not think we will join the euro in his Despite profound confusion over the Government’s political lifetime. interpretation of the legal basis for the treaty, the treaty The ultimate irony is that the Prime Minister, who is clear. According to the terms of reference set out in has previously been so scathing of the EU, has now the text of the agreement to be signed tomorrow, the been reduced to relying on that institution to be the last fiscal compact will rely on the operation of the EU line of defence in the protection of British interests, institutions upholding the terms and workings of the because the EU, unlike him, will be in the room. The agreement. The Europe Minister told the European UK will be barred from key meetings, rendering us Scrutiny Committee last week that one can argue about voteless and voiceless in future negotiations. Without the politics of the terms, but they amount to a promise being in the room, we stand little chance of knowing—let by 25 countries that they want to support doing certain alone influencing—whether eurozone Ministers will stray things under the European treaties. He said that in into areas of decision making that affect the 27. those cases, the use of the European institutions is, by definition, already authorised. The Opposition are right to be concerned at that prospect and to doubt the effectiveness of such a system Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Will the in protecting British interests, and we are right to ask shadow Minister give way? questions on how that situation was allowed to happen.

Emma Reynolds: Not for a minute. Andrew Percy: The shadow Minister said strongly Will the Minister therefore state clearly, and once and and clearly that she believed the euro needed to be for all, whether the Government believe the legal status saved, and that any country leaving the euro would have of the agreement, as set out in the terms of the fiscal a negative impact on our country and economy. What compact, and specifically in the articles I have cited, is evidence does she draw on to support that assertion? wrong? If it is wrong, what will the Government do to correct it? If they will do nothing to correct it, are we Emma Reynolds: A disorderly default by any member right to assume that that is their way of quietly admitting of the eurozone could have disastrous implications for that they have been forced into a humiliating U-turn? that country and knock-on effects for the rest of the EU. There would be a contagion effect that the hon. Mr Baron: Will the shadow Minister give way? Gentleman would be naive to think would not take place. Emma Reynolds: I will not give way. I have given way We are right to stress that the response by the once to the hon. Gentleman already. Government and centre-right Governments across the At least the leader of the Conservatives in the European EU to the eurozone crisis has been economically inadequate, Parliament, Martin Callanan, has been clear. He said: and any worsening of the crisis will have a devastating “There is no doubt that the government’s position has altered impact on our economies. Although we welcome the since the December summit, when they were insisting the institutions fact that in January the European Council spoke about could not be used…I blame a combination of appeasing Nick the need for growth and jobs in order to ensure the Clegg, who is desperate to sign anything the EU puts in front of recovery of the eurozone, we are concerned that this is him, and the practical reality that this pact is actually quite hard merely an add-on to the current deal rather than an to prevent.” integral part of it. In the light of that, will the Europe Does the Europe Minister therefore agree with the Minister comment on the position of the French Socialist analysis of his party’s leader in the European Parliament? presidential candidate, who is visiting the UK today and urging EU member states to reopen the treaty to Andrew Percy: Will the shadow Minister give way? include more commitments to growth and jobs? I will cite the words of one Member of the House Emma Reynolds: Not for the minute. who seems to share our deep scepticism about the Does the Minister agree with what the Deputy Prime consequence and cause of the Prime Minister’s diplomatic Minister said on “The Andrew Marr Show”in December? defeatism last December—the Deputy Prime Minister. He said: Earlier this month, he explained: 309 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 310 Governance Governance [Emma Reynolds] As a result of the Government’s actions, Britain has never been so excluded from decisions affecting its vital “The language gets confusing. Veto suggests something was national interests. That is bad for British business, bad stopped.” for jobs and bad for families across the country. No The phantom veto of December has now been exposed. British Government, regardless of political colour, have He also said that over time the treaty would been as complacent as this Government about the “be folded into the existing EU treaties so you don’t get a emergence of a two-speed Europe. By putting party permanent two parallel treaties working separately from each interest above the national interest, the Prime Minister other…We all see this as a temporary arrangement rather than has rendered the Government dependent on what could one which creates a permanent breach at the heart of the EU.” be described, euphemistically, as the Conservatives’ least- According to him, the Prime Minister’s walkout in favourite institution—the European Commission—to December was a temporary arrangement. protect the UK from decisions being taken without us even being in the room. Even Baroness Thatcher, a The crux of the issue was eloquently and pithily staunch critic of the EU, understood that being in the expressed by the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood room was of paramount importance. She would never (Mark Reckless) the day after the 30 January European have relied on the European Commission to defend the Council, when he asked the Prime Minister: British national interest. “Will the Prime Minister explain what it is that he has vetoed?”— [Official Report, 31 January 2012; Vol. 539, c. 687.] 1.35 pm Nothing, it seems. The Government Back Benchers who gave the Prime Minister a hero’s welcome in December Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): I have now realised that he did not prevent anything from find the Opposition’s stance rather astonishing, because happening. We said at the time that his walkout was not it focuses only on micro-details and fails to address the an expression of the bulldog spirit but a form of diplomatic big picture. As an eternal optimist, I feel that the big defeatism. picture—the opportunity for Britain—has rarely been better because real change is in the air. As a banker by Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Is the background, I have very real concerns about the prospects hon. Lady aware of one thing that the Prime Minister for the euro’s survival, and I think that the European seems to have achieved with this veto—as it has been Central Bank’s long-term repo arrangements will not described? In Ireland, the Irish Attorney-General has endure beyond the first roll-over and may well collapse said that the fact that the compact is outside the EU long before then. But regardless of the outcome for the treaties has influenced the advice that Ireland needs a euro in the short to medium term, there is no doubt that referendum. change is in the air. I should mention to the shadow Minister that, as I Emma Reynolds: That suggests that the Prime Minister’s am sure she realises, the treaty is not an EU treaty but a influence is greater than it is. It is up to the Irish people fiscal compact treaty that does not include all the EU to decide whether to accept the treaty, whether within member states. She did not seem to make that clear. The the European treaties or outside. fiscal compact treaty will create a euro summit for those who are part of the eurozone and those who have Despite the penny dropping with everyone else, the ratified that treaty. The euro summit will consider things Prime Minister resolutely clings to his phantom veto. such as competition and structures, and inevitably will, At the press conference after the January European therefore, be a forum for caucusing. That is almost Council, he said: inevitable. So change is in the air. “There isn’t an EU treaty because I vetoed it; it doesn’t exist.” I take great pleasure in the fact that, because change That flies in the face of the evidence. The European is in the air, there is the opportunity for change for treaty involves 25 out of 27 of the member states. It Britain too. The prospect is no longer of a two-speed involves the European Commission and the European Europe but of a multi-tier Europe—in respect not just Court of Justice. It sounds like a European treaty; it of those in the eurozone and those outside it but of walks like a European treaty; it clearly is a European those in the Schengen arrangement and those outside it, treaty. The Deputy Prime Minister is at pains to describe and of those great fishing nations interested only in the this situation as temporary, but in truth he was powerless common fishing area and those who wish to be excluded to prevent the Prime Minister from putting the Conservative from it. A multi-tier Europe in which member states can party interest above the national interest, as it was pursue their own particular interests but join together reported he was advised to do by the Foreign Secretary. in areas of common cause is the opportunity facing us. I am delighted with everything I hear from our Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): Does that mean Government about our approach to that. We should that the official Opposition would be happy with the welcome and support those in the eurozone area who treaty, leave it as it is and do nothing? wish to work more closely together on further fiscal integration to support their currency, and we should Emma Reynolds: We have made it clear that we are also be pressing for change in the best interests of not happy with the treaty. We would not have walked Britain. In that context, I want briefly to mention the out of the negotiations in December when a text was work of more than 120 Conservative Back Benchers in not even on the table. We would have negotiated a forming the Fresh Start project. I pay tribute to my hon. different treaty. We believe that this is a fiscal straitjacket Friends the Members for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) like the one that the Government are putting on our and for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice). The country, and it is not in the interests of the eurozone or three of us, together, have been pulling together an the UK. enormous project that looks at every single policy area 311 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 312 Governance Governance under the EU and attempts to determine where it acts in the west country recently attributed the death of one Britain’s interests, where it goes against Britain’s interests elderly gentleman to the working time directive, which and what the options are for change. To my knowledge, had meant that not enough doctors were on call and such work has not been done for a good long time. It that the two doctors on duty were seeing 300 to 400 patients was astonishing that the shadow Minister could not between them. Change is therefore vital. come up with any detail, but could only nit-pick at what My third and final point is about structural funds, the Prime Minister has been doing. where we now have a genuine opportunity. Back in I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Dunfermline 2003, the hon. Lady’s Government’s policy was to repatriate and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), who sits on the the local element of structural funds. In Britain we have shadow Minister’s side of the House and who has been contributing ¤33 billion to structural funds over become co-chair with me of an all-party group. That the past seven years. Some ¤9 billion comes back to the group has seen significant engagement from both sides UK, but that is decided by the EU. What on earth is the of the House in the interests of EU reform and what point of that? We can decide best where to allocate that could be a better deal for Britain. ¤9 billion. Interestingly, some of our poorest regions are net contributors to structural funds, not net beneficiaries, Emma Reynolds: I would like to make it clear to the so the potential for reform is massive. hon. Lady, who is making an eloquent speech, that the Opposition are in favour of European reform, but not Bob Stewart: Does that mean that we can change the same kind that she is. For example, we are not in quite easily without any further ado, simply by adopting favour of repatriating European social policy, and we my hon. Friend’s suggestions? also think that, even were it desirable, it would be pretty Andrea Leadsom: All the changes that the all-party unrealistic. group is investigating would require negotiation. Some things are more complicated than others, although we Andrea Leadsom: I am glad that the hon. Lady made are setting everything out in the research that we are that intervention, because I can assure her that the undertaking. [Interruption.] I have been asked to finish, all-party group on European reform, with which her so I will. hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West My two final points are these. For far too long we Fife other Labour Members, Government Members have tried to avoid the EU and not engage with it, so the and Members across the House are closely involved, is other thing that the Government are doing that I welcome investigating the options for change. It is not a campaign is engaging far more and far better with EU policy group but an investigative group. It is a disappointment making at all levels. My second point is about better EU to me and to others that the hon. Lady has not engaged scrutiny in Parliament. We have been rather bad at that in that debate, because we have turned up some extremely in the past, so I am glad that the Minister for Europe interesting facts. will be doing far more of it in future. As the devil in the EU is in the detail, I would like briefly to mention three areas. The first is financial Several hon. Members rose— services. Before the financial crisis, the single market for financial services was a very good thing. It significantly Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I added to British GDP, as well as the GDP of Germany, know that this is an important debate and that everyone France and Italy. All the change at EU level was about wants to get in, but we have so many speakers that I am creating a better single market, including in UCITS— going to have to impose a seven-minute time limit. undertakings for collective investment in transferable However, even then it will be very tight, so if Members securities, the most successful financial services export could save some time and ease up on the interventions, from the UK ever. that would be helpful. Financial services had great legislation; however, since 1.43 pm the financial crisis the EU has turned to stopping, slowing down, preventing and shutting down financial Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I will do my services, almost in a sort of act of revenge against the best, Mr Deputy Speaker. bankers. Indeed, I have heard many EU politicians I do not really disagree with some of the points that talking about how City-style financial services are to the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea blame for the problems they have found themselves Leadsom) has just made, but to achieve her aims she facing. However, that is simply not true, and our Prime will have to find allies. The difficulty is that the Conservative Minister did absolutely the right thing for British businesses party is perceived as profoundly hostile to European and the British economy by standing up for financial co-operation. It is allied with some very odd gentlemen services and seeking the safeguards that would enable in the European Parliament, as we know, and it sits with us to protect the industry, which employs a total of the Russians at the Council of Europe. We represent a nearly 2 million people in this country and contributes democratic political organisation in this Parliament, 11% of our GDP on an ongoing basis. He therefore did and we cannot achieve co-operation at a supra- absolutely the right thing, entirely contrary to what the parliamentary level by just telling people what we want shadow Minister suggested. and expecting everybody else to agree. Therefore, there Secondly, the shadow Minister mentioned social policy has to be a new approach to Europe. and the working time directive, and said that the all-party I congratulate the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) Fresh Start group would repatriate those powers. Not on securing this debate under Standing Order No. 24. It true: we are looking at what the options for change are. is absolutely outrageous that we do not have proper She will know, as do many people, that trainee doctors debates on Europe in Government time. Indeed, I am in the NHS are severely hampered. In fact, a coroner in sorry that the Leader of the House is not here—I have 313 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 314 Governance Governance [Mr Denis MacShane] UK is only a modest part of its operations. Frankly, his comments are unjustified in that respect. What is the made that point to his face; I am not saying anything objection to those banks accessing liquidity ECB support behind his back. It is unfair to ask the Backbench on the same terms as anyone else, and why should they Business Committee, which is generous on a number of not do so? issues. Mr MacShane: Because of the breathtaking hypocrisy Mr Bone: The right hon. Gentleman is making a fair of the Conservative party, in that when action is needed point. The Backbench Business Committee is not given to allow HSBC and RBS—British firms—to continue the time in advance to plan any of these debates, so he is functioning and operating in a Europe that needs to absolutely right. keep its head above water, and which therefore might need some help from the IMF, all we hear from the Mr MacShane: And it is not as if this place is Conservatives is that we should not be part of it. crammed full of legislation, is it, Mr Deputy Speaker? I However, what is sauce for the RBS and HSBC goose— really wish that the Government would stop continually going and asking for euro taxpayer handouts—has to hiding behind the Backbench Business Committee’s be sauce for the UK gander. We are all in this together. existence to deny their allocation of time for what are important debates. Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): Will The hon. Member for Stone made the interesting the right hon. Gentleman give way? observation that the EU institutions could not be used for just a group of EU member states, but of course Mr MacShane: Although I will lose time, I will give that is nonsense. They are used if there are rows over way—it is the hon. Gentleman, for heaven’s sake. Schengen, which does not include us, or if there are rows over fisheries policy, which on the whole does not Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the right hon. involve Austria, Hungary or other land-locked nations. Gentleman; I will be very brief. RBS has business in Also, there have always been groups or clusters of EU Ireland. It is lending against its loans in Ireland, which member states with particular concerns which the European are in euros and are therefore a matter for the eurozone. institutions have to have some regard for. Of course it ought to be able to get money from the Bob Stewart: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? ECB on that basis. Mr MacShane: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive Mr MacShane: And 50% of our exports go to the me, I want to give time to other colleagues and do not eurozone; therefore, it makes sense for us to help the want to take up my full time. eurozone stay alive. However, that will be difficult, I should inform the House that I might not be here because in our broad economic and fiscal policy we are for the wind-ups, because I have to go and hear Monsieur more European than the Europeans. We are implementing François Hollande speak at King’s College London. I anti-growth, deflationary, 1930s-type policies that Herbert am excited about meeting Monsieur Hollande, this socialist Hoover or Heinrich Brüning would have instantly who is proposing to increase the income tax on people recognised. That is why unemployment is going up, why earning ¤150,000 to 45%—in other words, lower than job creation is falling and why growth is flatlining. The the business-crushing tax rate that the present Chancellor paradox is that we need new policies for Europe, but of the Exchequer imposes on higher earnings. Of course, they are not on offer from this Government, this Chancellor Monsieur Hollande is not proposing to rip off the or this Prime Minister, who is entirely on the same epaulettes or the légion d’honneur from bankers he wavelength as Chancellor Merkel, President Sarkozy does not like—as our Prime Minister did with Sir Fred and all the others who are currently pursuing job-killing, Goodwin—nor is he proposing retrospectively to deny growth-crushing, deflationary, austerity, Treasury-driven bankers their bonuses or to introduce retrospective tax financial and fiscal policies in Europe. I am surprised legislation on what bankers earn. We have the most that we have not heard the terms “Camkozy” or anti-banking Prime Minister in the history of Great “Merclegg”, because there is undoubtedly very little Britain. As a low-tax socialist, I will be glad to be at the difference between the right-wing Conservative policy college listening to Monsieur Hollande, who seems to of our political leaders and that of the politicians have a much more moderate and pragmatic policy. controlling the big continental countries. I would be interested to hear from the hon. Member Let us be clear: the Commission is not involved in for Stone, who has left his place, why exactly the Royal this. The European technocracy and bureaucrats are Bank of Scotland—partly owned by us—and HSBC not involved in this; they are utterly sidelined. This is are running to the European taxpayer, in the form of about the raw politics of anger in Germany against the European Central Bank, to ask for cheap loans. Greece, and the raw politics in Greece against Why on earth should the European taxpayer bail out Germany. It is also about the raw politics of the appallingly badly run, inefficient British banks that do Conservative party in this House, some of whose not lend their money, but continue to try to pad out members rightly feel that all the pledges made by their their bonuses and salaries? I certainly do not object to leader, now the Prime Minister, on referendums, their doing so; indeed, I hope that the European taxpayer renegotiation and repatriation have not in any way will show some generosity. been delivered. That is what is causing upset and concern in the House of Commons. I am sure that Mark Reckless: The right hon. Gentleman is commenting it was also raw politics in Ireland that led the about two banks, which he has given as an example, but Taoiseach to agree to the referendum there. We know as for HSBC at least—a large international bank with that Monsieur Hollande has said that, if elected, he will interests throughout the world, particularly in Asia—the renegotiate the treaty. We also know that Mr Rajoy, the 315 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 316 Governance Governance new conservative leader in Spain, has said that he will That connection, and the involvement of the Commission, not implement a Merkozy-type dose, because Spain will mean that at least one institution will have to could not take it. uphold proper adherence to the European Union treaties We need a new approach in Europe, and in this and the safeguards in the fiscal compact treaty. country. I would have no problem if, after 15 years of Is there any threat to the single market, which is one wallowing in Euroscepticism, the Conservative party of Britain’s primary interests in all this, given the safeguards rejoined the real European world. I would like to see that we have succeeded in inserting into the treaty by Conservative MEPs sitting with other centre-right MEPs, having a seat at the table and being part of the discussions precisely to create the links that the hon. Member for that led to the drafting of the treaty, despite not being a South Northamptonshire mentioned. We need more signatory to it? That is in contrast to the view expressed engagement, and not in order to join some Euro-federalist by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East nirvana—that is not on offer at the moment. We are (Emma Reynolds), who is no longer in her place. I living in not a two-tiered Europe but a multi-tiered believe that that was a positive step by the Government, Europe, and we have to be part of it. We are not at the and a positive example of the re-engagement that we moment, but I hope that the Government can change have seen since December. their course before it is too late. Mr MacShane: Does the hon. Gentleman still share 1.51 pm the view of his leader, now the Deputy Prime Minister, that the Conservative party’s colleagues in the Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): It is always a European Parliament are “nutters”, “anti-Semites” and pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Rotherham “homophobes”? (Mr MacShane) in debates on Europe. He is the authentic voice of Euro-enthusiasm on the Labour Benches— Martin Horwood: I think that the right hon. Gentleman [Interruption.] He is one of the authentic voices. I is misquoting the Deputy Prime Minister, who was could not, however, work out from listening to his referring to the other parties that are members of that speech whether he was in favour of the treaty or not. group. I obviously have a great deal of sympathy with It is also traditional to congratulate the hon. Member that point of view, but I can assure the right hon. who secured a debate such as this, but in this case I Gentleman that our leader was not accusing Conservative think that the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) has MEPs of that. missed the point on a colossal—almost historic—scale. What is the most serious threat to the UK’s national There are questions of legality and politics around the interests? Is it the use of the EU institutions? Is there a treaty, but they are dwarfed by the really big issue, threat to the single market, given the safeguards that which is the future of the European economy. The have now been inserted into the treaty? I would say not. treaty represents a sincere and concerted attempt to The most serious threat to the UK’s national interests is make that future stronger, safer and more prosperous. the most serious economic crisis in Europe’s post-war We can argue about its chances of success, but I think history. It is a real and present danger to British jobs, that the hon. Gentleman is trying to have his cake—perhaps British prosperity and British companies. Why would I should say “gateau”—and eat it. He is calling on we now throw a spanner into the works of the only European economies to practise fiscal responsibility vehicle with a chance of bringing that crisis under without the treaty, while simultaneously criticising them control? To use the hon. Member for Stone’s term, I for not sticking to the previous, more flexible, regime. I think that such an idea reveals something about his own do not think that he can have it both ways. pursuit of ideology, rather than any real defence of the That is in stark contrast to the letter written by the UK’s national interests. For that reason, I think that he Prime Minister and 11 other Heads of Government in might even be losing sympathy among his Conservative the run-up to the summit, which tried to address the colleagues for what must now count as the political real issue of promoting prosperity in Europe. It talked equivalent of antisocial behaviour in continuing to be about completing the single market in service markets completely obsessed by the legal minutiae and institutional and promoting the digital economy, as well as details, rather than the really big picture that is facing “providing a secure and affordable system for cross-border on-line Europe and Britain within the European economy. payments, establishing on-line dispute resolution mechanisms for cross-border on-line transactions”. Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): It also proposed promoting an “internal market in The hon. Gentleman said that he was going to make a energy” and “energy interconnection”, as well as a really big point, but I do not think that he is doing so. “commitment to innovation by establishing the European Research The really big point is surely that Europe cannot grow Area, creating the best possible environment for entrepreneurs while policies for competitive deflation are in place. and innovators to commercialise their ideas”. They involve either one country, Greece, which is bankrupt That is exactly the agenda that should be dominating and will never be able to pay its debts, or four countries. our discussion of the summit. We should be talking That situation is never going to lead to a stable Europe about how we are going to get the whole of the European that can grow and with which we can trade. Is not that economy back on track towards creating jobs and the really big point? Would not we all be better off if sustainable prosperity. Greece left the euro in as stable a way as possible? We have to ask ourselves: what is the real threat to the UK’s national interests? Is it really the use of EU Martin Horwood: The hon. Gentleman has raised institutions by fiscal compact countries? Could that not some of the issues that we should be debating, although be interpreted as a connection that will strengthen the they are not the subject of the motion, which is about interests of the 28, relative to the fiscal compact countries? legal compliance. There are issues about whether the 317 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 318 Governance Governance [Martin Horwood] structured debates before European Council meetings, so that they have a strong mandate from us and we are compact will work and whether it will do enough to able to inform what they take to the meetings. stimulate growth, and the Prime Minister and the other It is a shame that the hon. Member for South Heads of Government have addressed them in their Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) is no longer in letter, and in the agenda for growth, jobs and sustainable her place. I gather she is often referred to nowadays as prosperity that they are pursuing. I think that that the new iron lady—although I do not know who will get addresses the hon. Gentleman’s question. an Oscar for playing her in the future. I profoundly Those questions about the economic situation are disagree with her that a multi-tier Europe is a good what we should actually be debating here, and there is idea. During my four and a half seconds as Minister for an argument for reinstituting regular debates in advance Europe the BRIC economies—Brazil, Russia, India of European Councils. It is unsatisfactory that we have and China, and for that matter, Mexico—repeatedly ended up debating this matter with less than a day’s told me, “It is essential that we know that we are dealing notice and with very little preparation, at the very last with a single market.” If we decide to cut up the single minute before the European Council. There is also an market, with lots of different tiers of different elements argument for a thorough revision of the whole scrutiny of legislative proposals, it will do us damage with the procedure for European legislation in this place. With growing economies of the world. China is not interested all due respect, I think that the European Scrutiny in dealing with 27 different countries in Europe; it is Committee keeps bringing us back to discuss the interested in doing business in Europe. If it is going to technicalities, yet we never seem to have debates on the be more difficult to do business in Europe, it will do substance of issues such as the fundamental economic business elsewhere—and we will have cut off our nose questions and the structure of the European economy, to spite our face. as the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Member for Stringer) has just pointed out. Stone (Mr Cash) about the danger of technocratic Governments being imposed on other European countries. Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): Will the There has always been an element of democratic deficit hon. Gentleman give way? within the European Union. In a sense, it is almost inevitable—unless we choose to elect a single President Martin Horwood: I will not give way again, because I and Government of Europe, to which I would be will not get any more time and the Deputy Speaker has wholeheartedly opposed because I do not think that instructed us to be brief. there is a single people of Europe. That is why we will Where is the report from the European Scrutiny always have a strange mixture of elected Governments Committee on the economics of this matter—and where, in member states working alongside a European come to that, is the report from the Treasury Committee Commission and a European Parliament. It will never on the economic aspects? We must address these issues be perfect, but I would say that this House is not perfect in revising the way in which the House of Commons in different regards either. The historical process of scrutinises European affairs; we need to take a step up parliamentary democratic reform in this country has and get away from this constant obsession with legal always been a matter of trying to improve on what we technicalities and the minutiae of organisational details. had last year—not some golden ideal, but improving on We need to get away, too, from Eurosceptic obsessions what we had and have last year and this year. that see conspiracies everywhere to try to undermine Of course there need to be changes in Europe, but if British sovereignty, and to get on to the real issues of the economic solutions effectively being enforced on how to promote jobs and prosperity in Europe as a some European countries have so little support within whole. That is the mission that the Prime Minister with those countries, there is a danger not only that the the other 11 Heads of Government has set out in the individual Governments will face riots and significant letter. I think that is exactly the right agenda, and it is in civil disturbance, but that the whole European Union stark contrast to some of the suggestions made in could face big problems. today’s debate. I agree with the hon. Member for Stone in his analysis of Germany, too. That country has tended to suggest to 2pm the world that it is paying for rescuing the countries in Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): It is a delight to trouble. That is far from the truth. The honest truth is follow the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin that Germany is making an awful lot of money out of Horwood), even though we were in English classes the present arrangements and intends to make even together at school and I still bear grudges about that. more money out of the arrangements on the table in the He was broadly right in his analysis—I appreciate that near future. We sometimes need to push back to the my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) Germans and say, “Actually, you need to be little bit will worry that I am praising a Liberal Democrat—and more honest about exactly where your economic and I agree with him. I agree, too, with all those who said financial interests lie in all of this.” that it is a shame that we had to use the Standing Order The broad position is that there are two choices. We No. 24 procedure to secure a debate on one of the can try to make the euro work because the UK believes biggest issues affecting parliamentary sovereignty, our that if it were to fall apart it would lead to significant economic future and our relationship with some of our dangers, particularly given that we are the banker and biggest allies in Europe. In addition, we do not usually the financial powerhouse of Europe. I believe that that get to hear enough from the Minister for Europe. is the right approach for us. There were problems with If the Government take away one thing from today’s the initial creation of the euro, particularly when there debate, I hope it is the fact that we need properly was no enforced audit so that countries could simply 319 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 320 Governance Governance make up the numbers, sometimes even employing needs to be more mutually assured deflation and that extremely expensive accountants to help them to do there needs to be a madness imposed on these countries so. Some big countries in the EU wanted to turn a blind to try to see whether the euro will work. eye to it because they themselves worried about the Ministers rightly say that they must not say anything enforcement of the stability and growth pact, so they in public or be seen to do anything in public that makes allowed some countries to do that. It is important that the difficulties of the euro area worse. I fully endorse we rectify some of those inherent problems in the that approach. They should never normally comment creation of the euro, which is why, broadly speaking, on the euro, because it is too dangerous, it is too advancing towards some kind of fiscal union, as difficult and it is up to those in the euro to say what they adumbrated in the treaty, is the right direction for us to wish about how their currency is developing. But how it take, although there might be some details about which develops is of grave interest to us, so I urge my right I would be worried. hon. Friend the Prime Minister to ensure that, in private, There is an alternative route, however, which is essentially when he is round the table, as he will be, with all the to dismantle the euro. I know that some Conservative other leaders and with a right to a view, he speaks truth Members believe, for perfectly legitimate reasons, that to their impotence. He should say to those assembled that is the right course to take. They believe that we leaders struggling to get a grip on their recalcitrant cannot have a single currency with a single interest rate economies and some stability into their very unstable for the very different labour markets across the whole of currency, “This is not working.” He should tell them the EU. I just think that that they are wrong on that. I that, in truth, the treaty before us this afternoon cannot believe, and I suspect I will be proved right, that not a conceivably make the euro work. Other things can help single country will leave the euro this year or next year; to ease the pain of the euro, and in another debate we in fact, a couple more might join it. could discuss many other policies that could pull off the There were problems with the UK veto exercised trick of getting many countries through and the euro before Christmas. It has, to coin a term, left us with a out the other side, but this treaty is not the way to do it. Bulgarian muddle. In truth, we have neither an EU This treaty is deeply offensive to many democratic treaty nor a not-EU treaty; we have a sort of European peoples in the countries of western Europe that will face treaty that is a half-way house with legal dubiety at its it. It reinforces a German view of how to make the centre. That is where the hon. Member for Stone is economies of western Europe work that clearly is not absolutely right. I think it would have been better if we working. If part of the medicine for a country that has had stayed at the table and made sure that we had an borrowed too much is to spend less and borrow less in EU treaty that was right for Britain. I disagree with the public sector—that can be the right approach, and I those who say that this is a question of more Europe or can think of countries where that could apply—at the less Europe— same time a series of policies have to be adopted to promote growth in the private sector, so that there is Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? some hope, there are some new jobs and there could be new tax revenue coming in. Chris Bryant: I cannot; I have all of one second—I Where the EU is proposing tax rises, it needs tax am finished. reductions on enterprise, business and success. Where it is proposing a bigger monetary straitjacket, it needs 2.7 pm monetary ease. It is now creating a very big monetary Mr John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): This debate easing across the eurozone as a whole by tipping trillions is about the future of democracy itself. There can be no of printed money into the system to try to make it more important issue. We are considering a draft treaty work, but that new money cannot possibly help Greece that presumes to take substantial powers of decision or Portugal, because they have frozen and damaged over how much a country can spend, how much a banks, they are under the austerity cosh, and representatives country can tax and how much a country can borrow of the European Union are going in and treating them from the democratic choices of the member state to a as if they are damaged economies that cannot conceivably centrally imposed system, which it is hoped will make pull through. the euro work better. This matter is of vital importance The euro scheme is damaging the confidence that to the United Kingdom because we wish our neighbours Greece and Portugal need in order to see light at the end to live in democratic prosperity for their own sakes, of the tunnel; it is putting people off investing there. because we wish to trade with them successfully and Why would someone go to Greece to invest through because we wish to make sure that there is no danger euros, if they think that it may be driven out of the whatever that our cherished freedoms and independence currency and forced into a big devaluation? Why would as a member state that has deliberately kept out of the they seek to do business in Greece when the banks are euro could in any way be damaged by this treaty, which frozen and they are not benefiting from the liquidity presumes to use European Union institutions to enforce injection that is helping the corporate bond market and a non-European institution will. the Government bond market, temporarily, in Italy and The peoples of western Europe are right to be mightily in Spain? worried about the bad state of health of their respective Above all, our Prime Minister has to secure and democracies where they have adopted the euro. We see protect the British interest. We in this House should be daily on our televisions or hear reported on our radios very proud of what our predecessors created, obtaining dreadful scenes from Greece, Spain and Italy, which are control over how much is raised in taxation, how much struggling with the common economic discipline and is spent and how much this country borrows and prints. policy being imposed today. The German-led new treaty We are rightly out of the euro, because those in it says that such discipline is not strong enough, that there cannot conceivably maintain democratic control over 321 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 322 Governance Governance [Mr John Redwood] Mr Clappison: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and the apposite point is that this treaty is a new form of those issues. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member mission creep by the European Union. We need to be for Stone (Mr Cash) for raising this issue today before clear that something new and important is happening in the summit, but we are worried that—inadvertently, I the European Union, as has been suggested by learned am sure—the Government might get us dragged into legal opinion submitted to the European Scrutiny much greater supervision of our economy by the European Committee. We have seen in the past, under our European Union, in a way that signs us up to the very mad policies Union treaty obligations, that notwithstanding the promises that we are rightly warning them cannot conceivably made to us, there has been a massive erosion of the work. United Kingdom veto and a substantial extension of Europe is at risk: jobs are being destroyed; economies EU competences—but at least we have always known are being gravely damaged; the people are on the streets; that that has been done within the framework of the and the main political parties in these European countries treaties themselves and that we have conferred power to are signing up to exactly same policy, so even where a the EU within that framework. general election takes place the popular will is thwarted, We are now dealing with something novel, because as people do not have a proper choice if they stick to the when hon. Members come to look at this agreement in main parties. In one or two countries Governments are detail they will find that it is not within the framework even being changed by the European elite without a of the EU treaties; it is a separate international agreement single vote being cast and without the democratic view that deals with how the European Union might act. of the people and their parties being consulted. Surely Although it is said to be an international agreement, it everyone in this House is ashamed of that. Surely we all is not an EU treaty and it will not describe itself as unite in saying that the thing that brings us together is such, but the EU runs through it like a golden thread. It our belief in the power of the ballot box, the voice of is as if the EU has come up against an obstacle in the elected representative and the right of people to proper legal procedure and just decided to ignore proper choose and to say that a policy is failing. We are told by legal procedure and go its own way; it has looked at the the European establishment that only its policy can rulebook, the rulebook was not convenient for it and so work. There is no evidence whatsoever that the policy is it has torn up the rulebook and drawn up a new set of working, but there is massive evidence of the damage it rules. The way in which it may act within that new set of is doing. rules could have substantial implications for our country. I hasten to add that our Government have taken the Several hon. Members rose— right course so far in dealing with that.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Eight Martin Horwood: The moment had almost passed, speakers wish to speak and the Minister would like but the question I was going to ask was: if he is 15 minutes in which to wind up, so it would be helpful if questioning even back to Maastricht, does he still support Members tried to be generous to others. the single market, which Conservatives would surely see as one of the greatest achievements the European Union 2.14 pm has delivered? Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con): It is a great pleasure to follow my right hon. Friend the Member for Mr Clappison: With the Single European Act, we Wokingham (Mr Redwood), and I strongly endorse the had a single market established before the Maastricht sentiments he uttered throughout his speech, including treaty. I do not have time, in the seven minutes those at the end. I warmly congratulate my hon. Friend available, to go over the whole Maastricht treaty, but the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) on securing this a very wide body of opinion now suggests that it debate. should never have been signed—I have heard that said I heard the comments made by the hon. Member for from the Government Front Bench. All the safeguards Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), who speaks for the that were put in place have turned to dust. Let us bring Liberal Democrats on Europe and does so consistently. things a little more up to date. The hon. Gentleman will He suggested that my hon. Friend is being technical or recall that his party was so upset about the signing of difficult in raising these matters for debate, but he had the Lisbon treaty that it wanted a referendum on getting the House’s support for an emergency debate. My memory out of the EU altogether and Liberal Democrat Members of events in this House goes back a long time, and I walked out of the House. recall that similar comments were made when my hon. The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), Friend was raising concerns about the Maastricht treaty who is no longer in his place, made some apposite and about the single European currency. Yet a very wide points, as did the right hon. Member for Rotherham body of opinion in this House now suggests that the (Mr MacShane), although he was completely wrong. Maastricht treaty should never have been signed and He asked what was wrong with groups of states that the single European currency is not a self-evident coming together within the European Union to do good. The hon. Member for Cheltenham would do well something where not all member states are participating, to remember that. When my hon. Friend the Member as in the case of the Schengen agreement and many for Stone rings the alarm bells, we should all prepare to other things. That comes back to my main point, man the barricades. because that was all being done within the framework of a treaty. A completely different treaty is being set up Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Does my hon. now, but it is one within which member states are still Friend agree that mission creep over the years means co-operating and operating within the framework of that we are right to be sceptical now? the European Union, using the EU institutions, as we 323 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 324 Governance Governance know. It was apparently drawn up by the European Mr Clappison: I have given way to the hon. Gentleman legal service, the European Commission has a central once and I am afraid I am not going to go back to role in it, the European Commission is mentioned in the all the treaties—Lisbon, Maastricht, Amsterdam— we whole of the preamble and throughout every article, have had in the past. He has had his chance to have and the final decision-making body with arbitration his say. powers over this is the European Court of Justice. I warn right hon. and hon. Members to look at the detail of the treaty. It is new and very important and is Bob Stewart rose— worrying in the context of what is taking place in Europe, particularly as regards the lack of democratic Mr Clappison: I will give way to my hon. Friend at control that countries now have over their decision the end, if I may, because I need to make one or two making and over very important fiscal and economic other points before then. matters that go to the heart of democracy. I urge I would respectfully draw to the attention of the colleagues and my colleagues on the Front Bench to be Minister the fact that although we are rightly not a part vigilant. The Government took the right decision in of this treaty, it brings about some fundamental innovations vetoing the treaty—we had the right to do so, it was in in decision making among EU member states. In particular, our interests to do so and we should never have considered I refer to articles 7 and 8. My hon. Friend the Member being part of such a framework. for Stone rightly referred to the coercive powers being My right hon. and hon. Friends have been right to taken by the European Union and I urge my right hon. reserve the Government’s position, as they have and hon. Friends to consider just how coercive those through the letter that has communicated the Prime powers are and to try to ensure that they are never Minister’s view through Jon Cunliffe to the European brought to bear against this country. No pressure should Council. We reserve our position on the use of EU be put on us to submit. institutions, which we are entitled to do, and there There is a body of opinion in the EU that wants to should be no criticism of the Government—the make this country submit to the EU deficit procedure Opposition are being very opportunist if they try to and we have, unfortunately, entered into some commitments make something out of it—but, in its typical way, the on that. We must keep out of those commitments EU has taken no notice. We should take no notice of because they run completely counter to the principles of the EU, however, and we should insist on the strict letter democracy both in the individual member states and in of what we are entitled to under the treaty provisions the EU. Under article 7—let us remember that this is and be extremely vigilant to ensure that there is not, to not an EU treaty and is outside the EU—when the use the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Commission is of the opinion that a country is in St Albans (Mrs Main), any further mission creep by the breach of the deficit procedure, it brings the matter EU. We should ensure that we have no part in these before the other member states and unless there is a matters. We are not part of the euro and we should be qualified majority vote against taking the decision that very careful to ensure that the EU does not try to the commission wants to take, the matter must be extend the scope of what it is trying to do over this treated as a breach and the offending country will be country. If it does, it will be at the expense of democracy hauled before the European Court of Justice. This is a and of this House. We have seen far too much of that very significant procedural development. already in my time in the House and we need to be vigilant and to stand firm against these very worrying We are familiar with how we used to have a veto in new legal developments in the EU. European Union matters. It goes back to 1975 and we were promised when we joined the European Union that we would always have a veto. That was eroded and 2.23 pm we agreed to abide by the qualified majority vote for Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a great more and more things, particularly in the single market, pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for but at least it was a qualified majority vote and a Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) and I agree with every word qualified majority of states had to be in favour of a he said. I shall try to discuss some different issues in my measure before it could take effect and legally bind this speech. country. Under the new EU method of decision making, Let me start by congratulating my hon. Friend the the Commission gets its way unless there is a qualified Member for Stone (Mr Cash) on achieving a debate majority vote against what it wants to do. There could under Standing Order No. 24. I want to comment first be a clear but simple majority of EU member states on its parliamentary significance. This is only the second against the Commission’s finding a member state in time in my parliamentary career that I can remember breach, but it will still legally be necessary for the such a debate being granted, and the first was on the country to be considered to be in breach and hauled phone hacking scandal. This shows the importance that before the European Court of Justice even though a Mr Speaker gives to the matter. More than 100 Members majority of EU states were against that course of action, rose in the Chamber when he agreed to the debate and despite what individual electors in the countries concerned they were not just from one side of the House, but from might want. There could scarcely be anything more both, and they were not just from the Conservative and coercive than that. Labour parties, as all the Democratic Unionist party My hon. Friend the Member for Stone is right to ring members were here. It was a very significant show that the alarm bells. This is a new procedure—it is very this House wanted to discuss in advance of the European new—and it is taking EU integration to a completely summit the views of the House and that Members different level. wanted to get their message across to Ministers. I hope that when the Minister sums up, he will be in receiving Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? rather than transmitting mode. That is why this debate 325 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 326 Governance Governance [Mr Peter Bone] The next issue is whether the treaty will work. I am sorry that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is important—Ministers should know what the House is not in his place, but he made a very good point when is thinking before they go to Europe to debate the issue he said that there were two ways of looking at this and, if necessary, cast any votes. matter. One was that we could create this European I want to return to the question of the procedure that political and economic union that is dominated by has led to the mess we find ourselves in today. Germany and that the euro would work. I do not think there is any chance of that system working and it would Graham Stringer: The hon. Gentleman is making a actually result in the greatest political unrest in Europe point that has previously been made in this debate in since the second world war. slightly different ways, which is that there should be more opportunities for this House to say to the Government Bob Stewart: It looks to me very much like we would what position they should take before they go into have a centralised economy commanded by Germany. European negotiations. Does he agree that such debates If there were any chance of it working, it would be should not only be reinstated but be on votable and brought down by the fact that the people of Europe—the amendable motions? people most affected by it—would reject it. There would be a total rebellion by the people of those countries. Mr Bone: The hon. Gentleman is psychic, because that was the very point I wanted to come on to. It is Mr Bone: It is very appropriate that my hon. Friend ridiculous that we are not having such debates and it is in particular made that point. What we would see is even more ridiculous to suggest that they should be extreme nationalism. We would have extreme nationalists scheduled by the Backbench Business Committee. Everyone saying, “This is the fourth reich,” and all that that knows that the Backbench Business Committee is supposed would mean. I am talking not just about little political to get 35 days a year, but that has not happened in this demonstrations on squares outside Parliaments; it would double Session of Parliament. I am very pleased to see overturn democratically elected Governments. That is the Leader of the House pay close attention to the why the solution that the hon. Member for Rhondda debate and it would help the House enormously if the suggested would not work. Committee had the days marked in advance. If that The solution to this problem is to allow countries to were the case, perhaps the Backbench Business Committee leave the euro in an orderly way. Greece, Spain and could put on such debates because we would at least Portugal at least would come out of it and would then know in advance that we had the days. We did not have be able to do what every other country has done in the a day before the summit on which we could have scheduled past when it has had an economic problem—devalue its this debate. That is not the issue, however. This debate currency and set its own interest rates. There would should not be put on by the Backbench Business Committee then be some hope for growth in the future. The idea but by the Government, and it should be on an amendable that we will permanently have regions of Europe that motion rather than a “take note” motion. I agree entirely will always be depressed and have the most horrible with that point. austerity funded by German taxpayers is beyond belief. Let me briefly mention the veto. The Prime Minister I have a feeling that the good and the great of Europe rightly vetoed the EU treaty, and no one can pretend have a policy at the moment of hoping that something that this is an EU treaty—it clearly is not, because we will turn up. It is like borrowing more and more on vetoed it. It is also clear that the Prime Minister and the one’s credit card hoping that one’s Euro lottery ticket Government believed that the EU institutions could not will come up. It will never come up. What they have to be used. do is deal with the problem now. That will not be pain-free but it will result in a Europe that will begin to Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab) rose— grow again. That would be not only in our interests but Mr Bone: I shall give way in a moment. As on any in the interests of individual countries. other occasion when the EU is defeated, the EU has Probably the main point I want to address is whether ignored that and carried on as if the rules were not we as a nation are being a good Samaritan. It seems to there. me that we are not, although we see the problem. We did not go into the euro because we always thought that Mr Spellar: I think that the hon. Gentleman might we could not put different countries with different just have answered my question. He was stridently political structures into one economic area with one asserting that the Prime Minister had asserted his veto, interest rate and one currency and expect it to work. We and I wanted to know what he had vetoed and what said that was wrong, and that has proved to be the case. effect it had had. What we are doing at the moment—this is where the good Samaritan point comes in—is walking by on the Mr Bone: I do not honestly believe that the right hon. other side of the road. We can see what has happened Gentleman, who has sat all through this debate, could and that something is seriously wrong—that someone is possibly not understand what the veto is about. The seriously sick—but are we prepared to risk being unpopular Prime Minister quite clearly vetoed the treaty so it and say something about it? If we were a real friend and could not be an EU treaty. That is what happened. That a real good Samaritan we would say, “You’ve got this is why the British people were 100% behind the Prime wrong and the way to fix it is not to carry on but to Minister and why coalition Members—or at least the stop, think of the problem and solve it by having an Conservative coalition Members—were wholly supportive orderly reduction in euroland.” That is where we are of him. He had a better reception for that veto than for letting down not only ourselves but other countries in any other of the very good things he has done as Prime Europe. I urge the Minister not to walk by on the other Minister. side of the road but to be a good Samaritan. 327 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 328 Governance Governance 2.32 pm replaces that credit with official credit that the Irish taxpayers, not just the Irish banks, will have to pay Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): This back. Instead of the European Central Bank supplying debate is not just about legality; it is about how we best all the credit, which it is, realistically, unlikely to get protect our interests, which are best served by having a back, that credit is being displaced by taxpayer-financing strong and vibrant growing European economy.Currently, from the EU, the eurozone, the International Monetary we do not have that, and the reason we do not have it is Fund and, indeed, this country. The Irish people will the euro. The idea that the solution to that is more euro have to pay that back instead of the European Central is no more credible than the Opposition’s suggestion Bank suffering the losses it deserves for causing this that the solution to a crisis caused by borrowing is more crisis in Ireland and for having very unwisely extended borrowing. If we are to protect our interests, we need to credit. know where those interests are, to be modest and to recognise that our influence on these matters is limited. Ireland faces a choice: whether to stick with that I believe Greece would be far better off if it were to system, grind further into poverty and give control, in leave the euro, default, devalue and price its way back this Carolingian settlement, to France and Germany to into the market. We could encourage our constituents lord it over them, or to reinstate its own currency. Were once more to go on holiday in Greece and it would it to do that, it would need capital controls, otherwise recover in a way that it cannot if it stays within the euro. there would be capital flight, and it would not have However, that is a decision for the Greek people and is access to overseas capital. It would need to pay the one over which we have precious little influence. difference between its spending and tax by printing its own money, there would be significant devaluation and I shall concentrate on Ireland. Yesterday, the Taoiseach probably quite a lot of inflation, and in the short term announced there would be a referendum in the Republic there would be very severe uncertainty. None the less, to reaffirm, or otherwise, the country’s commitment to that would be better for Ireland than sticking with the the euro. Ireland faces a fork in the road and has three current European programme. potential choices: to stick with the euro and the programmes being imposed on it; to reinvent its own currency; or to Instead, the other option, which, when I question the re-establish a relationship with the pound sterling. In Chancellor and the Prime Minister, at least appears to December 2010, I commissioned an opinion poll across be on the table, is re-establishing the old link that the Republic of Ireland by a company called RedC, Ireland had with sterling within a single currency area. I which interviewed a representative sample of 1,000 Irish am talking about a common currency area that makes people, somewhat more than a third of whom agreed some sense for similar economies with similar housing that in light of the financial crisis they would support markets, in which the interest rate does not lead to the Ireland’s leaving the euro and re-establishing a link with boom-and-bust cycle that the euro that has been applied the pound sterling. Earlier, we heard from the Prime to the Irish economy so inevitably does. Instead of Minister that while the eurozone says, “We will only relying on official European credit with all the terms, support the Irish people if they vote as we tell them to,” conditions and subjugation that involves, and instead of the UK will support the Irish people whatever choice cutting the country off entirely from overseas credit for they make in this referendum on their future. a period with all the risks that entails, the Irish economy could look to the UK private sector, much as, to a We in this country have very clear interests in Ireland. degree, it now is, certainly in terms of the property Last year, we were exporting more to Ireland than to all market, to give the support and credit that the Irish the BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, India and China—but banking system cannot provide itself. that has now changed and we now export 8% to the BRIC countries but only 4.5% to Ireland. That is because When we look at our interests—we have the Royal the Irish economy has contracted so much that there Bank of Scotland and the Ulster bank—we see that UK has been a significant negative impact on the UK, and banks have already written off or taken impairments particularly on Northern Ireland, in terms of our exports. for £40 billion-worth of loans to the Irish economy, but Irish migration has turned from a net migration from the Bank of Ireland, despite negative equity of perhaps this country into Ireland to a very strong migration the £15 billion in respect of its Irish property loans, has other way. That is something we have allowed for many taken only a £1 billion impairment. Very few Irish years. I should declare an interest because my mother people have been repossessed, and there has just been a came to this country from Ireland as a 17-year-old carrying on, with massive negative equity and with the nurse. If the euro prevents Ireland from creating jobs interest just about being paid. That cannot be sustained for its young people, we will create those jobs and they in the long term, and this country should stand ready to will come here and continue to be welcome, but would it support a recovery in Ireland by sharing our currency if not be better if Ireland had a monetary policy more necessary in our own interests, in Irish interests and in suited to its needs? Europe’s interests. The euro is destabilising the Irish economy, and it will 2.39 pm do that again, just as it has already done, at great economic cost to Ireland and some economic cost to Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): It is a the UK. In addition, the bail-out we are told that pleasure to participate in this welcome debate, which, as Ireland is getting is a bail-out not of the Irish people my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) said, but of the European banks. The current position is that allows for the expression of a wider spectrum of the the European Central Bank has extended—in my view opinions in the House on matters germane to the European extremely unwisely—very large sums of money to the Union and the crisis in the eurozone, and I am grateful Irish banking system, ostensibly as liquidity support, to him for securing it. I reiterate a point that I made to initially for the short term but increasingly for three him in an intervention, and that needs to be underlined years, at very low interest rates. The Irish bail-out today: it is incumbent on both Houses to raise their 329 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 330 Governance Governance [Mr Robert Buckland] Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): Does my hon. Friend not accept that all of us in this country want game when it comes to the scrutiny of European legislation to trade with Europe? There is no question about that. in its various forms, and to raise their game significantly There is no “little island” mentality. We want to be when it comes to debates about thematic developments part of, and trade with, Europe; we just do not want in the European Union. to be told what to do on Europe, and we want our own currency. It is not a matter of “little Britain”. We The European Scrutiny Committee, which my hon. do not want to get out; we want to trade with Europe—that Friend chairs, does an admirable amount of work, but is it. its limited remit, as I think he would concede, does not allow it to go as far as he and others would perhaps like in looking at some of the thematic issues raised Mr Buckland: I do not disagree. My hon. Friend the today. That is why I strongly believe that it is the role of Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) subject Select Committees, at a far earlier stage, to do made a powerful point about variable geometry; we the work of scrutiny, examination and report. That should use Europe in our national interests, and work would add to the quality of debate on the detail of with it where appropriate. My hon. Friend the Member European policy. for South Dorset (Richard Drax) is absolutely right about trade and the single market, which was, let us face I am a member of the Justice Committee, and together it, a British invention. Lord Cockfield did a huge amount with other members, I recently paid a most instructive of work to make sure that that aspiration became a visit to Brussels. We met the Vice-President of the reality, and my hon. Friend is right to emphasise the Commission who has overall responsibility for justice issue. As for not being told what to do, again he makes a and home affairs, and we met other members of the fair point. I do not accept that, at any stage, the British directorate-general. Frankly, it was instructive, because Government, or the people of this country, should be it became blindingly clear to me and my colleagues that put in a position in which they end up doing something we as domestic parliamentarians need to have an input against their will. That is why I supported the Bill on into the detail of proposed regulations at a far earlier European referendums, now the European Union Act 2011, stage. I am thinking particularly of the justice and why I agree with the mechanism that the Government home affairs pillar; by 2014, we have to have considered proposed, and why I was happy to speak in support of whether we opt into the entire mechanism, or stay out that Act on Second Reading and at other stages. and perhaps adopt some of the regulations that we have To come back to the reality of the debate about chosen to opt into thus far. That is important work that Europe, we are talking about real jobs. We should be we are missing. talking about trade, widening the single market, the The Liaison Committee has met my right hon. Friend digital economy and the energy market—all things that the Minister for Europe, and I know that the Government form the subject matter of a very helpful letter, signed are keen for Parliament to take a far more proactive by the Prime Minister and 11 other Heads of Government role. I am glad that they take that view, and I look to the on 20 February, which set out a plan for growth. That Liaison Committee and the Chairs on it to take up the should be at the core of negotiations at the European cudgels, or the baton, and get that scrutiny right. Council. That should be the agenda, because that is the agenda that is relevant to my constituents and the wider Far too often in debates about the European Union—I country. It would be wholly ridiculous for me, an elected speak as a lawyer with 20 years’professional experience—we representative of Swindon, to say to my Honda workers, end up talking about the legalistic aspect of Europe, “What we need is more arcane debate about the legality and we forget that Europe is nothing without its people. of Europe,” when what they want to hear is debate and I have the honour of representing a constituency in discussion about how we can grow the economies of Swindon that has many links with the European Union. Europe and expand the growth agenda. That is what I We have many major manufacturers, including car call on Ministers to do. manufacturers such as Honda, which exports 50% of its vehicles to the 27. We have a number of other international Mr Cash rose— companies that export widely to the European Union. Our links and trade with Europe are vital. Mr Buckland: I shall take an intervention from my I yield to no one in my enthusiasm for widening trade hon. Friend, as he was good enough to allow me to with the BRIC—Brazil, Russia, India and China—countries intervene on him. and the wider world. That agenda is something that we all agree on, but we have to accept the reality of Britain. Mr Cash: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, and it The reality is that the EU—the 27—is still our major has been, in a way, my political life’s work to try to draw trading partner. Any scintilla of schadenfreude, or a attention to the effect that this legal framework has on wish that the eurozone would break up, is dangerous. It our daily lives, but it is absolutely unacceptable to suggests that somehow we are not linked at all with the suggest that we can make any changes of the kind that affairs of the EU—that it is a faraway place of which we he would prefer to make, in order to benefit his constituents know little. I think of Neville Chamberlain when I say or mine, without having regard to the legal constraints that, and I resent bitterly the suggestion that those of us imposed on us as a result of treaties. who favour positive engagement in Europe are the heirs of appeasement—far from it. We are fully engaged with Mr Buckland: I yield to no one in my respect for my the affairs of Europe. The lesson from history is that hon. Friend, and he and I have had many conversations when Britain disengages, we end up having to go in to on these issues, but we cannot get away from the point sort the mess out, and I for one am not prepared to take that the European Union is an exercise of political will that path. first and foremost. It is the political will of its members 331 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 332 Governance Governance that drives the future course of the European Union. I Mr Buckland: As I said, as a lawyer I realise that accept that we all work within a legal framework, but let although the law is not irrelevant—of course it is not— us be clear about where we are. The 25 have agreed to political will often takes precedence, as we have seen in sign a treaty that is not an EU treaty. If there is to be the history of the development of the EU. Surely my any proposed fold-in in five years, the British veto will hon. Friend can accept that. apply. We have the right to say no, and that is an important point that we need to underline. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am afraid to say that I disagree with my hon. and almost learned Friend. Law is the Jacob Rees-Mogg rose— foundation of what politicians do, and politicians use their political will through the law. Indeed, they have Mr Buckland: I shall take an intervention from my the ability through Parliament to change the law, but very good and honourable Friend. they cannot just ignore it. That is why I want to come on to Sir Jon Cunliffe’s Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to my hon. Friend important letter. He makes two significant points. First, for giving way. We may not have the ability to say no, he notes that because the issue may qualify for enhanced co-operation “the EU institutions must only be used outside the EU Treaties in five years’ time. with the consent of all Member States, and must respect the EU Treaties.” Mr Buckland: As a lawyer, I love a legal debate, In response to a question at a meeting of the European and bearing in mind what has been said and the Scrutiny Committee last week from my hon. Friend the aspirations signed up to by the 25, I think there is a very Member for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison), the Minister strong case for saying that when the five-year period for Europe—who, if I may say so, was extremely helpful comes to an end in 2021 or ’22, we will still be in a at the evidence session—said when asked whether good position, bearing in mind the clear political will permission had been given by the Government for the that the Prime Minister has shown by his refusal to EU treaties to be used: participate, and to allow the United Kingdom to “No, we have not been asked so to do.” participate. That is a very clear statement of intent, and It ought to be of grave concern to the House and to the I would be happy to argue the case on that point in five country that the member states of the European Union, years’ time, just as I am happy, and happy for the British excluding us, Sweden and the Czech Republic, have Government, to argue the case about some of the decided to proceed with a treaty without establishing articles in the fiscal compact. Where there is reference that they are following the correct legal forms. to the European Court of Justice, it is incumbent on the Government to argue the point, and to make it clear that we wish the compact to be entirely outwith the Mr Cash: My hon. Friend may be interested to know institutions of the EU. that yesterday in the European Parliament, which I attended as Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee, Those are matters of legal debate. I do not accept in a dialogue between MEPs and MPs, one of the that they are now set in stone, or in some way unarguable French representatives said from the platform to the or unimpeachable. Let us bear in mind what happened chairman that she did not think it appropriate for me to in the economic crisis of 2008, when member states cast be able to make certain comments because the United to the four winds rules that we all thought immutable. Kingdom Parliament and the United Kingdom were We need to remind ourselves at all times that the institution not part of the eurozone. My hon. Friend might find is an exercise of political will or it is nothing. That is that rather extraordinary. why clear expressions of political will, such as the one that we heard from the Prime Minister in December, are Jacob Rees-Mogg: Indeed, but one never knows what the right approach. I welcome the debate, and I thank people might say in relation to the European Union. my hon. Friends for taking part. As I was saying, it is a shocking state of affairs that our partners in Europe should want to proceed with a 2.49 pm treaty without even bothering to go through the proper Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): May forms to ensure that that treaty is lawful under EU law. I join in the congratulations to my hon. Friend the They have not even asked the question. It may be that Member for Stone (Mr Cash) on getting this crucial they know what the answer will be, but if they do, they debate, and say how shocked I am by my hon. Friends are one up on most Members of Parliament. the Members for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) and The other point raised in Sir Jon Cunliffe’s letter is for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) for their view that that the legality does not desperately matter and it is all “we must reserve our position on the proposed treaty and its use about politics? This is a novel and somewhat eccentric of the institutions”. view for parliamentarians to take, when the heart of the This, again, is very important because what we are matter is the law and the detail of the law. Without the trying to find out is whether the Government are reserving rule of law, what we are doing here ends up being a their position on the current legality of the treaty, or waste of time. how the treaty will be used in practice. If it is the former—if the Government are concerned about the Mr Buckland rose— current legality of the treaty—it is important that they act now to establish their concern and to have a judgment Jacob Rees-Mogg: My hon. Friend is bursting to from the European Court of Justice, rather than waiting. intervene, so I happily give way to him. If the Government wait, as my hon. Friend the Member 333 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 334 Governance Governance [Jacob Rees-Mogg] the United Kingdom because we are not a signatory and it is not yet part of the TFEU. But if that is the for Stone said earlier, he who is silent is seen to consent, case, why does it say and we will find that we have allowed the treaty to be “The amounts imposed on a Contracting Party whose currency implemented and we will have lost our ability to have is the euro”— recourse. that is, a fine of up to 0.1% of GDP— “shall be payable to the European Stability Mechanism. In other Martin Horwood rose— cases, payments shall be made to the general budget of the European Union”? Jacob Rees-Mogg: It is a particular honour to give We have here a treaty that is making provision for way to my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham. fining non-euro members for their budgets, even potentially ones that have not signed up to the original treaty if it is rolled in within five years, as the treaty itself requires. Martin Horwood: It is an equal pleasure to intervene That is why this debate is so important to establish the on my hon. Friend. I am grateful to him for allowing legality and see whether we can at this early stage stop me to do so. Does he accept that by reserving their this treaty—a genuine veto, rather than a soggy veto—or position, the British Government may gain something whether we will find that by doing nothing now, by of a tactical advantage by perhaps retaining the ability being friendly, kind and generous to our neighbours, we to challenge any future perceived breach of this treaty do not really help them with the economic situation and therefore encouraging compliance with the European that they face. I agree with those who say it would be Union treaties? better for some countries to default and devalue. We will instead find that by being silent, we have consented Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am afraid I do not agree with my to a treaty that is against our fundamental national hon. Friend because a key part of the treaty may interests. already be in breach of European Union law. I refer hon. Members to article 8, which states: 2.58 pm “If the European Commission, after having given the Contracting Party concerned the opportunity to submit its observations, Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): Thank you, Mr Deputy concludes in its report that such Contracting Party has failed to Speaker, for allowing me to contribute to this important comply with Article 3(2), the matter will be brought to the Court debate. I have listened carefully to a large number of of Justice of the European Union by one or more Contracting Parties.” speeches, many of which have raised interesting points, including that of my hon. Friend the Member for What that says is that the European Commission may North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). I recognise end up enforcing requirements under the stability pact that there are issues relating to the legality of the in direct contradiction of TFEU—the treaty on the proposed treaty, but it is important to stress that this is functioning of the European Union—126(10). We discussed not an EU treaty. That is the key point and the one on this at length in the European Scrutiny Committee and which our case must rest; otherwise, we will get terribly the Foreign Office’s wise legal counsel, Mr Ivan Smyth, confused. The second key point about the treaty is that gave us a very helpful answer—that in treaty terms, it includes not only all members of the eurozone, but “will” is not an obligation, and if it were an obligation, aspirant members. However, it does not include us as we the wording would have to be stronger than “will”. are neither members nor aspirant members of the eurozone. It seems to me that that is a pretty narrow basis for maintaining the legality of what the treaty requires the Mark Reckless: My hon. Friend suggests that there Commission to do. Let us bear in mind that under the might be confusion and asserts clearly that the treaty is treaty law, the European Commission does not have not an EU treaty, but surely if it was an international the authority to enforce the requirements of the stability treaty it would be in international public law and subject pact on member states; under this treaty it does not to the jurisdiction, such as the states agree, of the quite have that authority directly, but it is so close to International Court of Justice at The Hague. However, doing so that it would not make any difference at all. it is actually being implemented through the European Commission and will be subject to the European Court A further aspect of the treaty concerns me. Article 16 of Justice, both of which are creatures of European says that the treaty will be rolled into the TFEU within Union law. five years, so it will become part of the whole package of European Union law within five years. It is currently Neil Carmichael: I thank my hon. Friend for his thought, though others may think differently, that it intervention. That does not alter the fact that it is not would not have been possible for this treaty to be an EU treaty, and that is the point. The Commission brought in under enhanced co-operation. However, there might well take a view on these matters, and that brings is a school of thought that maintains that the ESM me to another key point. It is in our nation’s interests to treaty which is awaiting ratification by Parliament would ensure that the treaty works in protecting the euro in the allow enhanced co-operation to be used, in which case long run. We do not want the euro to fail, because that this treaty could be rolled into the European Union’s would badly affect our economy. It is important that we treaties without the say-so of the House, under enhanced continue a dialogue with the process but are not actually co-operation. We should be deeply concerned about involved in it. It seems to me that what we have secured that, not least—going back to article 8—because it through the veto and our continued resistance to being refers to how countries may be fined. Let us bear in a part of the treaty is essentially an overview on proceedings mind that the treaty is supposed to be all about the to ensure that the EU positions are safeguarded, because eurozone member states, and is nothing to do with in so doing we will protect our interests and those of the non-eurozone members and nothing at all to do with overall single market. 335 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 336 Governance Governance It is important to note the comments of the US involved, engaged and ready to contribute to the future Secretary of State, Hilary Clinton, who noted that the of the EU; and secondly, to ensure that we can easily United States was concerned not about our failure to be observe what is going on, because we have a clear and part of the treaty, but about whether the treaty itself obvious interest in making sure that the EU treaties, would succeed in its principal mission of enhancing the such as the Lisbon treaty, are enforced and maintained position of the euro. That is a clear expression of the as part of the governance of the EU. That is how we American Government’s position, and it is consistent will be able to check the legality of the treaty we are with our position because we, too, recognise that that is talking about today. We will do that not by complaining a fundamental priority.I am not often asked by constituents about it or chucking grenades into the process, but by whether the treaty is an EU treaty or some other kind of allowing it to happen and ensuring that we keep an eye treaty; what they are worried about are the economic on what is happening. That is the Government’s key circumstances in which they live, and that is what we objective and I am pleased to note that that is what the have to start talking about. Government are doing. Although I welcome the debate, I am disappointed I will end with the points that are really important to that it was secured only as a result of Standing Order my constituents. In my constituency we need jobs, growth No. 24, and that for that reason we had less than and investment. There are firms in my constituency that 24 hours to consider it, but it is also necessarily important depend on European markets and that are part of to talk about what will happen at the European Council, significant and complicated supply chains stretching which is almost immediate. At that Council we need to across Europe. We need to think about the importance drill down on the key issue of what we need to do to of those supply chains to our economy and ensure that ensure that growth comes to Europe and to Britain. we encourage investment across Europe and between nation states where appropriate. The critical issue is to Mr Buckland: On that point, should not priority be move the terms of debate away from the questions of given to tackling the tariff barriers and, indeed, non-tariff treaties and so on and towards what we actually want barriers that often exist between the EU and countries the EU to do and how we express this country’s objectives such as Japan and other major competitors, which are a for the EU. The electorate are much more impressed if real block to more effective trade? we talk about economic growth, because that is one of their priorities, as it is ours. It is also a question of labour mobility, because when people are thinking about Neil Carmichael: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, moving jobs they appreciate a flexible labour market, and I thank him for that intervention. It is crystal clear and one of the things the European Council should that we need to engage properly with the large economies, focus on in the coming days is labour mobility and such as those of Japan, China and the US, because they youth employment. I note that that is on the agenda, understand that we are talking about a European and rightly so, and think that the electorate and the dimension. He has hit the nail on the head in that House will welcome it when the results are announced. regard. It is critical that we look outward for trade opportunities and inward to ensure that we are internally competitive. That means that the single market needs to 3.8 pm be further upgraded and that the energy market needs Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): Thank you, to be made into a European market, because until it is Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to speak in the we will continue to suffer from price variance and debate. I have to leave at 3.30 pm, as I have advised you, supply problems. If Members want to know about that, but I have been here for the entire debate. I am pleased then rather than worrying too much about what is to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil happening in Europe with regard to policy, they should Carmichael) but must say that I disagree with just about just ask their constituents, who will tell them that they every word that he said. I congratulate my hon. Friend want more stable and lower energy prices, and the way the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) on securing the debate, to achieve that is by developing an energy market. but as my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud observed, To do all those things, Britain must be a key player in we have had only a day’s notice of it. That was because the European Union, and the Government are rightly my hon. Friend the Member for Stone was so fleet-footed ensuring that we are. We have to be there in order to and secured it through Standing Order No. 24. Should develop bilateral relationship and to be part of the we not have had that emergency measure, we would leadership of the European Union, so it is right and have had no discussion whatsoever. proper that we show a responsible attitude to the way in My hon. Friend the Member for Stroud said that we which the treaty we are talking about unfolds. If we are have not had enough time to contemplate the matter, seen to object to any measure intended to protect the but we should contemplate the impact of this form of euro or to deliberately obstruct the measure they wish legislation even if we do not get debates on it. My hon. to introduce, we are at risk of taking some blame for Friends the Members for Stone and for Hertsmere something that we do not want to happen in the first (Mr Clappison), who is not here at the moment, have place. Therefore, it is in our interests to start co-operating spent many long years studying the implications of with those nation states that are considering the treaty. what goes on in Europe for our economy and our That is why we should be sensible about the use of the legislature. It is extremely important that we do so. This EU institutions. is not about navel gazing. At the beginning of this whole process, immediately I was somewhat disappointed in my hon. Friend the after the veto, I said that we should consider the questions Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), who seemed relating to the use of the EU institutions. There are two to feel that by studying the matter we are somehow good reasons for allowing the use of the EU institutions: being disloyal. It is not disloyalty. We are doing just first, to secure our reputation as a country that is service to our constituents, because although there may 337 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 338 Governance Governance [Mrs Anne Main] Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Lady give way, as she is attacking us directly? be the political will or ambition in Europe, the impact will be very much on us as a democratically elected Mrs Main: I am not attacking any Liberal Democrat; Parliament. I, like many other colleagues, have been I am just saying that they are quite within their rights to extremely disappointed by the mission creep throughout change their minds, and have been known to do so. Europe, which has in effect led to imposition on a democratic country by people who were never elected Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Lady give way? by that country but who now make decisions about it—such as Greece. Mrs Main: No, I am not giving way to the hon. Gentleman. I have made my views clear about why I will not. He has had plenty of opportunity. Mr Buckland: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for allowing me to correct a misapprehension. I apologise if I am extremely concerned also that the package under I created the impression to which she refers, because it discussion could be incorporated into EU law within was not my intention at all. I think that we are all five years, because this situation is very much like our patriots in this House—we should be—and that although bleating on the Lisbon treaty, when we kept saying, “It we may agree on the ends, we may differ on the means does have a big effect, it does have a big effect,” and we by which we achieve them. I should not for a moment were constantly told that it did not. The treaty under question my hon. Friend’s integrity or her sincere devotion discussion has a potentially big effect, and that is why I to her country. offer my encouragement to the Minister, which I am sure he has been offered by many hon. Members today, Mrs Main: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, including my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon and I end this part of the debate on that conciliatory (Mr Buckland). The Minister has the huge support of note. the House and the political will of this Parliament, and the Prime Minister had the support of the majority I have sincere concerns, however, that the mission of the House in using the veto. He had robust support, creep that I mentioned in an intervention has led us to which I believe he has also among the public, for the point at which a democratic country can have exercising the veto, but, despite the fact that we are not something imposed upon it, leading to riots and civil ultimately part of the process, what we do not want is to unrest, because it is not willing to take the necessary become a part of it because of mission creep. pain that the EU must inflict on it. Although we are not So I say to the Minister, who is going along to discuss today debating whether Greece should leave the EU, we those matters, that we could be affected by them, despite all should heed the warning that when Greece signed up the fact that they are not designed to affect us. They are to being a full member of the EU it did not sign up to designed to affect those countries that are happily allowing have something imposed upon it, as it has had. themselves to be influenced in that way, but my fear is that, like all the other treaties that have come our way Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Lady give way? over the years, including Maastricht, ultimately five years down the line, when this one is incorporated, we Mrs Main: No; the hon. Gentleman has made many will somehow feel its chilling effects. speeches and many interventions, and I am sure that as I felt the need to jump up and down when my hon. the lone representative of the Liberal Democrats today Friend the Member for South Swindon said, “What he has had more than his fair share of the debate. I shall does the EU make us do that we don’t wish to do?” not take interventions from him. Well, I should like to deport Abu Qatada, but I cannot. I am extremely concerned that we will find ourselves I should like not to be fined or pursued in the European dancing on the head of the same pin as that in the Court of Justice for trying to introduce a means of not previous Parliament. The hon. Gentleman was a Member allowing people who have never paid into our benefits then, so he will remember the Liberal Democrats saying, pot to claim—a habitual residence test—which was “We need to have a full EU in/out vote on this, and we overturned on the ground that we are somehow being will give you a genuine vote,” whereas the Conservatives, discriminatory. Those are just two examples of our in opposition at the time, said that we needed to have a regularly being made to feel that we must do something, vote because there was a treaty. We were assured, “Oh, and, what is more, the European courts now have a no, no, it is not a treaty. It is just something we don’t punitive nature, whereby they routinely fine countries need to have a referendum on.” Such dancing on the that are non-compliant and say, “If you don’t do so we head of a pin is what most of us on the more Eurosceptic will place people in your country to make whatever we side of our party find worrying about this particular want delivered, delivered.” treaty-that-is-not-a-treaty, into which we supposedly do The European courts are intent on getting their own not need to have any form of input. way, and they have found a new method of getting around the rather difficult matter of our veto. They Mark Reckless: Does my hon. Friend accept that the have decided to ignore us, inasmuch as they have said, difference between our commitment to a referendum on “This agreement isn’t to do with you,” but ultimately it the Lisbon treaty and the Liberal Democrat commitment will be because we will feel its effects. So I encourage the to an in/out referendum is that theirs is still possible? Minister to go along to the discussions with a truly sceptical mind, based on his long and distinguished Mrs Main: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. career in the House, during which time he has seen these As we know, Liberal Democrats tend to change their arguments made again and again, and seen how in minds, so they can always change their minds and retain reality the situation has translated into something very that possibility. He is absolutely right— different further down the line. 339 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 340 Governance Governance 3.16 pm (Neil Carmichael) indicated, that is important to all our constituents, because we all want to be able to trade Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): with a successful eurozone. Let us therefore make that I rise not to detain the House, as I know that the assumption in favour of the treaty and those who have Minister will shortly be on his feet, subject to other framed it. contributions, but because it seems to me, having listened to the majority of speeches in the debate, that the issue Even in those circumstances, there still exists the under discussion is extraordinarily important—so problem of the legality of the use of the institutions of important, in fact, that I am disappointed not to see the European Union. I hope that my right hon. Friend more Members on the Opposition Benches. the Minister will make it absolutely clear to the House, Be that as it may, and given that the Minister will on and through the House to the British public and our behalf of the Government shortly respond to the debate, partners in Europe, that the Government will not I think it important that he gives a direct response to countenance anything that not only damages this country three points that I have listened to during our proceedings. and its interests but is unlawful under the treaties to First, there is the point, which my hon. Friend the which we have already subscribed. That is the second Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) made so ably, point with which he must deal. about the procedure by which the matter has come The third point is the most important. The treaty is before the House. We are fortunate indeed that Mr Speaker potentially the thin end of a very large wedge. Other yesterday acceded to the request from my hon. Friend Members have alluded to the fact that when the European the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), whom I too congratulate Union and the faceless bureaucrats in Brussels do not on securing this debate under Standing Order No. 24. It get their own way, they simply look for a solution that is is perfectly right that he should have sought that liberty not necessarily lawful but is at least pragmatic, to ensure and, therefore, that we debate the matter today. that what happens is precisely what they want, rather But for the fleet-footedness, as another hon. Member than what the people of Europe want. That has been described it, of my hon. Friend, there would have been the hallmark of European governance since the EU was no opportunity for the House to discuss the matter established, and certainly since the Maastricht treaty. before the end of the week, when the treaty will be We see it very clearly in this case. signed by those who choose to do so. Given its provisions, My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister was absolutely to which I shall turn in due course, that would have right to veto the suggestion of any further European been a matter of very grave concern not just to those of treaty that would have damaged the interests of this us on the European Scrutiny Committee, who look at country and the City of London. When Opposition such matters with great interest and, I hope, care, but to Front Benchers ask, “What was vetoed?”, as they did the whole House, albeit that it would have been in earlier in the debate, I say that it is very clear. It was a ignorance of some points that have been made about further European Union treaty that this House does not the importance of precisely what is going on. want and that, more importantly, the people of this It is a great shame in those circumstances that country do not want. It would have been damaging to Government time was not scheduled in advance of the the interests of Britain and all our constituents. It end of this week for the debate to take place. Although I would have been extraordinarily straightforward for the know that it is not directly my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition to stand behind the Prime Minister’s responsibility, I have no doubt that he, who Minister, but he chose not to do so. Perhaps he is fearful will answer for the Government, has discussed the of Europe, and perhaps the fact that none of his Back matter with the Leader of the House, and it is perfectly Benchers and almost nobody from the Labour party is appropriate that the House be told why no debate was here for the debate indicates that Labour is perfectly scheduled in Government time. That is the first point willing to see imposed upon the British people the same that he must answer. sort of treaty that it gave us in Lisbon without a The second point concerns the legality of using the referendum, having promised one in the first place. European Union’s institutions in the context of the treaty to which those 25 countries will become signatories. We know, because the Prime Minister has told us, that Emma Reynolds: Can the hon. and learned Gentleman the Government have their own concerns about whether explain to the House what in the fiscal compact treaty it is appropriate that EU institutions be used outside the would have applied to the UK, and therefore why the framework of the treaties that already exist for the Prime Minister felt the need to veto it? governance of the European Union. I understand and accept—the Government are entirely Stephen Phillips: If the hon. Lady had actually read right—that there must be a degree of pragmatism in the fiscal compact treaty, and if she had been here when relation to the aims of the treaty, which we hope will my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset succeed in stabilising the euro, although many Government (Jacob Rees-Mogg) made his speech—I do not think Members, many Opposition Members, I suspect, and, she was—she would know that article 8 of the treaty indeed, many people in the country are concerned that provided for penalties in relation to countries that are it is just yet another piece of paper, and that all we are not eurozone members. She would also know that article doing is putting off the evil day when the euro finally 16 required the treaty to be rolled into the treaty on the unravels and countries such as Greece, Portugal, Cyprus functioning of the European Union within the next five and perhaps even Italy have to drop out. years. That is the thin end of a wedge and indicates Let us assume in favour of those who have put the clearly to me and other members of the European treaty together and framed its provisions and that it Scrutiny Committee that in the current case it is stands some chance of making things better in the possibly being contemplated that the provisions of the eurozone. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud treaty will in due course become binding on the United 341 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 342 Governance Governance [Stephen Phillips] more and more power. Why do we not get a proper and authoritative interpretation of the treaty now, before we Kingdom, notwithstanding the fact that the UK is not a proceed? member of the eurozone. That is the direct answer to If one needed any ammunition to support the principle her question. that the treaty is ambiguous, one would need look no When the Leader of the Opposition says that he further than the opinion of the Council of Ministers. would have negotiated further on the treaty, Conservative Four questions are asked in it and the answers are set Members are entitled to ask with whom he would have out, and they confirm that it is incredibly ambiguous. negotiated. The negotiations had come to an end. Is the hon. Lady saying that the Leader of the Opposition 3.27 pm would have negotiated with himself? The Opposition Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I pay tribute to need to stop opposing just for the sake of opposition, my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) for and instead stand behind the Prime Minister and his securing the debate. He stands up for everything in veto and behind debates such as this. With that said, I which I and a lot of Members on both sides of the hope that the— House believe. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I simply do not understand why we all look at this huge abyss, this black hole, this legal and financial I have three speakers still to call, and we have 10 minutes federalist nightmare, yet go on pouring billions of euros before the wind-ups. into it in the hope that it will somehow recover. It will not. The political elite in the entire eurozone are betraying the very people they say they represent. 3.24 pm We are going to have tears over this. We have, Mr Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): It is a unfortunately, already had riots in Greece: God forbid pleasure to be able to participate briefly in this very that we have riots in this country one day when the important debate and to follow my hon. and learned people wake up to realise that we have been, dare I say Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham it, disingenuous—I will not say untruthful because I am (Stephen Phillips). I congratulate and thank him, the not allowed to use that word in this House—to our Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee and all electorate. We have to be truthful, and we have to base its other members for putting the spotlight on this our politics on common sense and the law. I want us to important issue. have jobs, growth, wealth and mobility, but we will not My hon. and learned Friend said that the UK get them under the current EU federalist state. We must Government must make it clear that they will not renegotiate and start talking. I urge those on the Front countenance anything unlawful. The question is whether Bench, please, for our party and our country, to say at anything in the treaty is unlawful, and that is where the the meeting, “Enough is enough: let’s sit down and find rule of law comes in. My understanding is that one of a more common-sense approach for the future.” the most important elements of the rule of law is that the law should be clear and easily understood; otherwise, 3.29 pm it is very difficult for people to know whether they are Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con): I am sorry that complying with it. Over the years, ambiguity has been my hon. Friend the Member for South Dorset (Richard the hallmark of the laws that the EU and the European Drax) is going to be crying over the treaty. His constituents Court of Justice have gradually developed, which have will be worried about this, as we all are, but it is not only been against this country’s best interests. about the treaty, because that is merely the result of a What is in the treaty is very unclear, as my noble major crisis. In debates in this House, we often express Friend Lord Howell, the Foreign Office Minister, made concern, in many respects, about many countries, whether apparent when he said in the other place: they be Somalia, India, or the economies of the far east. “There has been much comment about the use of the European Those economies impact on this country. It is crucial Union institutions, and I want to come to that. The new agreement that whatever emerges from the way in which the EU sets out limited roles…The legal implications are complicated and implements the treaty serves our national interest by hinge upon how the agreement is implemented. It is for this ensuring our greater economic security. reason that we have reserved our position.”—[Official Report, I share Members’ fears about whether the treaty will House of Lords, 16 February 2012; Vol. 735, c. 936.] deliver the right result. Over the past 18 months, we As my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset have watched the economic meltdown across Europe (Jacob Rees-Mogg) asked, what is the point in reserving being met with inactivity and summit after summit, as our position? If we remain silent, it could be interpreted Ministers from all over Europe have come together but as an estoppel or a consent to what is going on. there has been no endgame, no result, and no agreement. Why are not the Government asking the European This comes extremely late in the game. That means that Court of Justice to interpret the treaty now? The ECJ whatever is done will cost Europe—the eurozone—a lot will have a role in interpreting the arrangements for the more money than if the situation had been addressed European Union’s accession to the European convention 18 months ago. This is not a day when Europe is shining on human rights. If it can do that, why cannot it in its glory. This has come too late, in a crisis, and as a examine the treaty? We would then know exactly what it result Europe has cost itself more money. thought about the legality or otherwise of the treaty. If It is not in our interests to be part of the treaty, but it we wait for it to interpret the treaty, we will find that it must be in our interests to support Europe in sorting does so in a purposive manner, in accordance with the out its own economic situation. I worry whether it will principle that it is right and proper for the EU to have be successful, but very much hope that it will be. I know, 343 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 344 Governance Governance however, that we are in a better position than we were My hon. Friend the Member for Stone was right to before the Prime Minister went off to Brussels to veto point to what I believe to be a genuine, underlying the treaty. The veto is in place protecting the UK from tension in European affairs at the moment between two the treaty, and we are giving our support in ensuring important pressures. The first is the economic logic, that the European economies get their act together. which prescribes that if we had a single currency, interest rate and monetary policy, logically we would have to 3.32 pm move towards greater fiscal integration. That, after all, is one reason why I and most members of my party The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I opposed the United Kingdom entering the euro. We felt thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) that that was the inherent logic of the project. Against and all hon. Members who have taken part in the that, there is the political challenge, which is whether, if debate. I am conscious that in the limited time available there is to be greater fiscal integration among countries I am unlikely to be able to do justice to all the various that share a single currency, there is a sufficient sense of and detailed questions that have been asked. As my common political identity, not just for the Governments hon. Friend said, I gave evidence on this subject to the of those countries, but for their voters, that they can European Scrutiny Committee for nearly two hours last accept major decisions in economic policy being taken Thursday. I am not sure whether the transcript is yet at, and democratic accountability being transferred to, available on the Committee’s website, but if Members the European institutional level, rather than being based wish to explore these matters further, I refer them to the solely at national level. detailed answers that I attempted to give to my hon. Friend and other members of the Committee. Mr Baron: My right hon. Friend is well respected in I take very seriously the comments made by a large his post. Can he highlight the concrete and substantive number of hon. Members about the importance of guarantees that will exist to prevent the two-tier Europe scrutiny. I completely agree with those who have said that is being created through the establishment of the that while the European Scrutiny Committee does an fiscal compact from acting against the best interests of excellent job within its prescribed terms of reference, this country? which are confined to looking at documents as they come from the EU institutions, there is a powerful case Mr Lidington: There are two parts to my answer. for what one might term more upstream engagement by First, the action that the Prime Minister took in December Parliament in examining the strategic direction of European ensured that what other countries chose freely to do, policy before it takes the form of specific items of through sovereign decisions, will not be binding on the European legislation. Some, at least, of the Chairs of UK through European law. Secondly, as a number of the departmental Select Committees are interested in my hon. Friends have said, the Government are determined pursuing that further, and I very much hope that they to work actively with other members of the European will feel encouraged to do so. Union in pursuit of common interests. Although this In response to my hon. and learned Friend the Member might not give the assurance that can be given by a rule for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) book, the culture that I see at work in the European and others who asked about having debates before Union week by week is one in which countries come to European Councils, I can only repeat what has been the table with interests and views of their own. Countries said before from this Dispatch Box: it was an explicit do not act as a predictable bloc or cohesive caucus part of Tony Wright’s report, which led to the creation because they happen to belong to the euro. There are of the Backbench Business Committee, that such debates eurozone countries lined up with us to support budgetary should be among those for which responsibility was discipline. Other eurozone countries—largely net transferred from the Government to the Backbench recipients—want to see a greater EU budget. There are Business Committee, to be dealt with in the time that also euro-outs that are net recipients and that want to was allocated to that Committee. see a bigger European budget. The way in which countries line up on particular issues does not follow logically Mr Bone rose— from where they stand in relation to the fiscal compact or from whether they are members of the eurozone. Mr Lidington: I will not give way, but I take seriously the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Several hon. Members rose— Wellingborough (Mr Bone) made about the Backbench Business Committee wanting to have predictable times Mr Lidington: I will not give way again, because I at which it can schedule such debates. The Leader of the have limited time and there are a lot of points to which I House was listening carefully when he made his remarks wish to respond. and, I am sure, will be attentive to that particular point. I will not dwell on what happened in December I draw my hon. Friend’s attention to the fact that a because I want to get on to what hon. Members asked review of the procedures suggested by the Wright me this afternoon. However, I draw the House’s attention Committee is due in the near future. to the fact that my right hon. Friends the Foreign I did not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer have Stone when he laid strictures on individual EU countries. now sent detailed accounts of the approach to the Greece and Italy may do things differently from how December European Council meeting and the events politics is done here, but everything that has happened that took place shortly afterwards to my hon. Friends in those countries so far has been within the bounds of the Members for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) their constitutions. The legislation that the Governments and for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) in their capacities as of those countries take through has to be enacted by the Chairs respectively of the Foreign Affairs Committee democratically elected Parliaments. and the Treasury Committee. Those letters have been 345 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 346 Governance Governance [Mr Lidington] Change cannot be done through the EFSM treaty, which is to be signed intergovernmentally by the eurozone copied to my hon. Friend the Member for Stone and are members only. already available on the websites of the Foreign Affairs and Treasury Committees. I am making arrangements Stephen Phillips: Will the Minister give way? for them to be placed in the Library today. The Prime Minister’s decision in December ensured Mr Lidington: Forgive me, but I will not because I that the treaty, to which 25 countries subscribed, was want to press on and try to answer more of the questions “outside” the European Union. As my right hon. Friend asked during the debate. told the House in January, It is a fact that the compact says that it is a treaty that “we are not part of it and it places no obligations on the UK. It shall be applied in conformity with the obligations set does not have the force of EU law for us, nor does it for the EU out in the EU treaties. The declared intent of the institutions or for the countries that have signed it”.—[Official signatories is that they shall act at all times in accordance Report, 31 January 2012; Vol. 539, c. 678.] with EU law. I want to deal with some of the points that my hon. It is a matter of legal fact that the primacy of EU law Friends the Members for North East Somerset (Jacob laid down in the EU treaties is not and cannot be Rees-Mogg) and for Hertsmere (Mr Clappison) made. affected by the drafting of an intergovernmental treaty. The treaty does not govern how the European Union Article 2 of the compact explicitly states that if there is shall act. It imposes certain obligations on the contracting any conflict or overlap, the EU treaties will prevail. In states, which are linked to the EU. However, in so far as any case, even if that phrase were absent from article 2, it refers to EU treaties, it makes it clear that they and it would be against EU law for EU member states to their rules have primacy and apply in any circumstance enter into any kind of international agreement that where there might be overlap or apparent contradiction. contradicts the EU treaties and EU law. My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset Having said that, it is also true that elements of the asked about the prospect of non-eurozone members fiscal compact give us serious concern. Our concerns being fined under the fiscal compact. If a non-eurozone relate to certain tasks accorded to the European member state has ratified the treaty, until it joins the Commission and the European Court of Justice. I set euro, it can decide which parts of titles III and IV of the out our concerns in greater detail in my evidence to the compact apply to it. Once that country joins the euro, European Scrutiny Committee last Thursday. In fairness, the whole fiscal compact applies to it. The fiscal compact it is worth alluding to the fact that others who gave rule in article 3(2) and the jurisdiction of the Court evidence to the Committee—I am thinking of Professor under article 8 fall within title III, so pending membership Dougan, of Martin Howe, who is by no means a of the euro, the non-euro countries can choose whether euro-enthusiast, and of the Council Legal Service written they wish to be bound by those aspects of the compact. evidence to the Committee—presented a different A member state, whether in the euro or not, can be interpretation and argued that article 273 of the EU fined only once it has ratified the fiscal compact through treaties could be interpreted as justifying what was set its national means. out on the use of the institutions under the fiscal My hon. Friend also asked about the risk of the compact. treaty somehow being imposed on us in the next five The concern of the British Government is that the years by underhand means. example set under the compact for the EU institutions, Jacob Rees-Mogg: I want to clarify the point that I the role and functions of which are determined by was trying to make. The treaty might possibly come in treaties agreed by all 27 member states, could be used in through enhanced co-operation, so although it would future either to set unwelcome precedents or to impinge not formally be imposed on us, it would reach the status on the integrity of EU law and the arrangements set out of an EU treaty if the current treaty that we are in the in the EU treaties. That is why we have reserved our process of ratifying is ratified. legal position. That in turn means that we are vigilant and ready to act, including by taking legal action in the Mr Lidington: I do not know whether we will have European Court of Justice, if we believe that the EU time to explore that this afternoon. I may write to my institutions are being used in a way that is contrary to hon. Friend setting out the answer in greater detail, but the provisions of the EU treaties and that harms our I do not believe that his fears are justified. Treaty national interest. change can take place only under the procedures for The Prime Minister made clear at the informal January treaty change in the treaty on European union and the European Council that the EU institutions can be used treaty on the functioning of the European Union. It outside the EU treaties only with the consent of all cannot take place under enhanced co-operation, which member states. He also said that the treaty should not can, in any case, bind only those countries that choose undermine the operation of the single market or otherwise to participate in it. That is clear in the treaties. infringe on areas of policy that are properly for discussion The role given to the European Court in the compact by all member states in the EU context. That position in relation to the balanced budget rule—and, indeed, was repeated in writing by Sir Jon Cunliffe, our permanent the imposition of that rule—could not be introduced representative to the EU, on 22 February. I deposited under enhanced co-operation. Although the compact that letter in the Library of the House on the same day. declares that it has the objective of being incorporated The actions the Government have taken in respect of in the EU treaties in five years, that is only an aspiration, the compact have been informed by advice from across not a given. Any changes to the EU treaties would have Government. I will not be drawn into a detailed discussion to be agreed by all 27 member states, using the procedures of what the Government’s legal analysis says, not least under the EU treaties themselves for treaty amendment. because reserving our position means that we might at 347 Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and 29 FEBRUARY 2012 348 Governance some stage wish to go down the path of legal action. I Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill do not want to say anything that might prejudice or [Relevant documents: The First Report from the Environment, reveal a position that we might take in court in such Food and Rural Affairs Committee, Future Flood and circumstances. Water Management Legislation, HC 522, the Fourth I am sure most hon. Members realise how foolish it Report from the Committee, the draft National Policy would be to speak in such a fashion, but I am confident Statement on Waste Water, HC 736, and the Government’s that reserving our position is the best way of protecting responses thereto.] UK interests. It enables our partners to undertake economic and political tasks that we hope will help to stabilise the Second Reading eurozone while preserving our right to take legal action should that become necessary. 3.51 pm The problem all our economies face in Europe is a The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and lack of growth. That growth will not come from increased Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman): I beg to move, Government spending, nor will it come from consumer That the Bill be now read a Second time. spending funded by increased private indebtedness; it In December, the Government published “Water for can come only from structural reform and a growth in Life”. The White Paper set out many of the challenges trade, both within Europe and beyond. My right hon. facing the water sector. These challenges are not just Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood), about how much water we have available now and in the and my hon. Friends the Members for South Swindon future; they range from the environmental impact of (Mr Buckland), for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) water management to the means by which we deal with and for Stroud (Neil Carmichael), spoke strongly in the waste water and, not least, the issue of affordability. interests of their constituents when they urged the Government to press forward with an innovative and There have been dramatic improvements in the health assertive agenda for economic reform and growth in of many of our rivers, but more needs to be done. The Europe. We are working with our partners to do that, as House will recall that the Government have invested was evidenced by the letter to which the Prime Minister £92 million to improve our rivers and waterways. Despite added his signature to those of 11 other Heads of that, however, over-abstraction and pollution of our Government, and for which Bulgaria, Slovenia, Portugal rivers, lakes and streams means that only a quarter of and Lithuania have voiced support. The Government our water bodies are fully functioning ecosystems. The intend to be active in promoting our economic interests water and sewerage sectors have, though, made significant in Europe and the wider world, and I commend our progress. More than £90 billion has been invested in the approach to the House. 22 years since privatisation to reduce the water industry’s impact on the natural environment and to continue to 3.49 pm deliver high-quality drinking water while keeping water bills generally affordable. Mr Cash: Undue delay in reserving our position on the necessity of getting concrete guarantees and an It is also worth noting that last year, despite the driest answer to the question of whether we will go to the spring on record, there were no hosepipe bans, which European Court of Justice over this matter is no substitute was testament to the 36% reduction in leakage achieved for action. We must take action now because the advice by the industry since privatisation. from the legal adviser states: “within five years…when this happens”. Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I do not want my right hon. Friend to digress too far from His assumption is that this will happen within five her speech. She mentioned hosepipe bans this year, but years. We must take action now. We cannot allow delay there are likely to be bans this summer owing to the lack to trump the necessity of getting this right. It is essential of rainfall now. Has any thought been given to the long that we move, and move now. I shall speak to the Prime term and to providing a national grid for water so that Minister about this shortly. I seriously hope that the we can share the water supply up and down the country? Attorney-General will take the necessary action and advise accordingly so that the Cabinet is fully apprised Mrs Spelman: Thought has been given to that. We of the fact that this is not a lawful treaty. had a drought summit last week, and I have said publicly 3.51 pm that hosepipe bans are more likely this year because we have had our second dry winter. The important point, Three hours having elapsed since the start of proceedings, however, is local connectivity. That is the key. Water the motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 24). companies explained to us at the summit how they are The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George connecting to their neighbours. It is important for the Young): On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. House to know that transporting water over a significant Owing to the debate under Standing Order 24 that has distance is prohibitively expensive. The idea of building just ended, the time available for the debate on the a pipeline to transport water from the north-west, which Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill has been pleasantly has it in abundance, to the south-east, which reduced. It is therefore the Government’s intention, if traditionally does not, might sound attractive, but it is necessary, to make more time available to complete the prohibitively expensive. However, local connectivity debate that is about to commence at a later date. I will produces, in essence, a virtual national grid. give more details in the business statement tomorrow. Today, our reward for all that investment is world-class drinking water and a cleaner environment. Water supplies Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): I am grateful are also safer, better and more secure than ever before. to the Leader of the House for that clarification. Water and sewerage services also remain relatively inexpensive compared with other household bills, and 349 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 350 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Mrs Spelman] vulnerable in the water area where we reside. Indeed, it would be open to every company to do so, and we have are good value for money. The average bill stands at just published a consultation about the company social over £1 a day. At the same time, water companies are tariff. investing £22 billion over the current five-year price round in mains replacement, flood resilience, river Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): Let me congratulate improvements and better water quality in 55 wetlands my right hon. Friend on bringing forward this measure and bathing areas. and remind her of the cross-party nature of the origins However, a minority of customers struggle to pay of the Bill and the fact that we have been working their water charges, either because they are on low towards it across all parties for many years, including incomes or because they live in areas where bills are under the previous Administration, and not only following higher than average. In fact, 23% of household customers the Anna Walker review, as there has clearly been every across England and Wales spend more than 3% of their intention of addressing what has been a clear historic disposable income on water and sewerage charges. We unfairness for South West Water customers. now want to start tackling that problem. The Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill will allow us to Mrs Spelman: My hon. Friend is quite right. Indeed, provide support to keep bills down in the south-west I look across the Chamber to the right hon. Member for and to reduce the risk of future infrastructure developments, Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) as a demonstration of the cross-party such as the Thames tunnel super-sewer, raising bills consensus that existed, which I have acknowledged. The disproportionately. Clause 1 creates a general power to diligence with which south-west constituency Members enable the Government to make a payment to water raised awareness of this historic unfairness is the reason companies for the purpose of reducing charges payable our Government have sought, finally, to do something by customers. The only circumstances under which we about it and stop turning a deaf ear to families struggling currently envisage using that general power is in support with that historic legacy, which is what had happened of South West Water customers. We believe that the for too long. circumstances they face are exceptional. There are limits to the help that we can give, because Anna Walker’s review of charging for household of the vast economic deficit that we inherited. However, water and sewerage services, which was commissioned we believe that the Government should help to correct under the previous Government, identified why households the historic inequity that has left water bills in the in the south-west face the highest water bills in the south-west so markedly out of kilter with those elsewhere country. At privatisation, South West Water had the in the country. We have therefore committed to funding lowest regulatory asset base per property. Since then, South West Water to enable it to cut bills by £50 a year the company has had to invest around £2 billion to raise for all household customers. The payments will start in the standard of its infrastructure to the same level as April next year and will be maintained to the end of the the rest of the country.With comparatively fewer customers, next spending review period. The £50 reduction will be the cost of new investment per property has been higher transparent on customers’ bills and, contrary to the there than anywhere else. The benefits of that investment impression that might have been gained, will not provide include improved water quality, reduced leakage, cleaner any sort of benefit to South West Water. It will simply beaches and better bathing water quality, as enjoyed by be passported straight through to the householder, who the south-west’s many visitors. However, the costs have will receive that money in full. been borne solely by South West Water customers, We take pride in helping hard-pressed families in the whose bills have risen as a result. I would like to pay south-west, but we recognise that the challenge of helping tribute today to hon. Members past and present in all vulnerable customers with water affordability problems parts of the House who have devoted years to raising is a different and more general problem that can be felt the profile of this historic unfairness on behalf of their in households anywhere in the country, as the hon. constituents. Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) suggested. As constituency MPs, we all know the families Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Does that we are talking about. That is why our water White the Secretary of State accept that average water bills Paper has set out definitively the dual approach that we across the country are set to rise by almost 6% in April are taking to tackling affordability issues. First, we are and that this Bill will do nothing to help the vast taking measures now to enable water companies to majority of people, who have seen their incomes cut or introduce social tariffs and to tackle bad debt. Secondly, frozen? Why should water companies not have to tighten over the longer term, we are introducing a package of their belts like everybody else? reforms to increase competition and innovation in the industry that will help to keep bills down and improve Mrs Spelman: I can give the hon. Gentleman the customer service. assurance that water companies are indeed tightening We consulted recently on how water companies could their belts like everybody else. The rise that he described design social tariffs to reduce the bills of those who is the one set out by the economic regulator Ofwat, as would otherwise struggle to pay in full. We will publish an indicator of the overall level of inflation, which has final guidance in the spring to enable companies to not a little to do with the economic mess that we bring forward social tariffs in their charging schemes inherited from the previous Administration. However, from 2013. Water companies’ responses to the the important point for the hon. Gentleman is this. He consultation have shown their commitment to addressing and I share the use of Severn Trent Water’s services, and customers’ affordability problems. Many already have companies such as ours will be able to introduce a schemes in place, such as trust funds, matched payment company social tariff, which would assist the most schemes, referrals to benefits advice and some existing 351 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 352 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill social tariffs, but we have to be realistic in acknowledging urbanisation and more extreme rainfall events caused that bad debt is also a serious problem in the water by climate change. This, as I am sure all Members will industry. agree, is unacceptable. Bad debt adds an average of £15 to all paying customers’ We are the world’s seventh largest economy; this is bills, and this Government are taking action to address our capital city; this city is a shop window for our entire that. We are consulting on measures to reduce bad debt, country—and the status quo is simply not good enough. and we are considering two options. The first is a This Government are going to put the “Great” back in regulatory measure that would make landlords liable “Great Britain”—a Government who are showing that for the water charges for their tenants’ properties if they Britain is open for business and competing globally. failed to supply details of those tenants to the water That is why need a 21st century solution, not a 19th company. However, we are mindful that the measure century one that would still rely on allowing the Thames has to be proportionate and easily administered, so we to function as a sewer. are also consulting on whether we should ask landlords to share their tenants’ details with water companies Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): Over voluntarily. 1 million customers of Thames Water are in what is termed water poverty. The Thames tunnel, which I Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): Will support, is estimated to cost something in the region of the proposals that the Secretary of State has just mentioned £4.2 billion, putting £1 a week on the bills of Thames be similar to the present regulations involving landlords customers. What are the Government going to do to and energy companies, or might they be somewhat ensure that more people will not fall into water poverty different? as a result? Mrs Spelman: Naturally, Thames Water will be one Mrs Spelman: Electricity utility bills are the domain of the water companies looking at a company social of the Department of Energy and Climate Change, tariff. That provides a means, as with Severn Trent rather than the Department for Environment, Food and Water and every other water company, of really helping Rural Affairs. We are seeking to ensure that people who the most vulnerable customers. It is important, too, to use water pay for it; it is a question of fairness. Water put in context what Thames Water customers, probably has historically been treated somewhat differently from including some hon. Members, pay now. Unlike South other utilities such as electricity and gas, so there might West Water, Thames Water currently has significantly be some differences in the details of the proposals. The below average water bills. Where the average combined hon. Lady will have an opportunity to raise that point water and sewerage bill is £356 a year, South West as part of the consultation. Water ratepayers pay £517 a year, whereas Thames This Government are going to get a grip of the issue Water’s ratepayers have a combined bill of £319 a year. of bad debt, which is forcing up bills for those who do We are starting with Thames Water’s ratepayers who the right thing and settle their bills on time. We are on have a significantly below average bill. the side of those who play by the rules and pay their bills in good faith and, unlike the previous Government, Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab) rose— we are going to ensure that their interests are properly Mrs Spelman: Let me make a little progress, if I may. served by clamping down on those who do not, or will not, pay their bills. We need a solution that prevents sewage from entering the Thames in the first place. Today, the proposed Despite the considerable progress that has been made Thames tunnel offers the most timely, comprehensive on cleaning up our water environment, challenges still and cost-effective solution to the combined sewer outflow remain, not least in the river that ebbs and flows outside problems. We are very aware, though, of the impact its these very walls. The House has previously debated the construction would have on local communities. Thames fact that London’s sewerage system is operating close to Water has just finished its second public consultation capacity. We are now at a stage at which waste water on its proposals, and will consider the responses it has containing untreated sewage overflows into the Thames received. It plans to publish its response in the latter between 50 and 60 times a year, involving an average half of May. Thames Water will continue to work hard total of 39 million cubic metres a year. The sewage with those potentially affected to minimise the impact discharges kill fish and leave litter and debris floating in where practicable. the water. Because of the tidal ebbs and flows, that debris can take up to three months to reach the mouth We recognise that the large and complex Thames of the river, and frankly, it stinks—just ask David tunnel project comes at a cost, which will impact on Walliams. Hon. Members will recall his Sport Relief Thames Water sewerage bills, but we are confident that challenge last spring to swim 140 miles along the length the bills would still remain below the current national of the Thames here to Westminster. His challenge should average and below the average bills of Southern, Anglian, have been the distance, the strong currents and the Wessex and Severn Trent Water customers—and well undertows, not the quality of the water he swam in—water below those of South West Water customers. that was bad enough following heavy rain to place his Mr Slaughter: Does the Secretary of State agree that entire endeavour in jeopardy. the cost of the tunnel is too large to justify the environmental We might not quite face the “Great Stink” of 1858, benefits, and that the projected costs outweigh the when the stench of sewage led to this House’s curtains advantages of a cleaner river? being soaked in chloride of lime in an attempt to disguise the overpowering smell and, ultimately, to Mrs Spelman: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that his Parliament being suspended, but the sewer outflows party is not in favour of trying to clean up the sewage will only get worse with population growth, increased out of the Thames? He will know that the initial study 353 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 354 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Mrs Spelman] that Londoners can be assured that the power to provide contingent financial support is in place while we work on the Thames tideway was launched when his party with Thames Water and other stakeholders to plan for was in power—in 2001—and that a significant amount the financing and structuring of the tunnel. of time was spent looking at alternatives and carefully assessing with the greatest rigour what the costs of such Mr Slaughter rose— a complex project might be. Just to put this in context, the proposed cost for the Thames tunnel is comparable Mrs Spelman: I have already taken one intervention to the amount having to be spent in Paris to do almost from the hon. Gentleman. exactly the same thing and what the German Government As the Bill contains just two simple spending powers are having to do to deal with an outdated system on the to implement intentions that the Chancellor set out in Rhine-Ruhr. So I do not accept his argument that the the autumn statement, our intention is that the Speaker expenditure on cleaning the sewage up out of the Thames be able to certify it as a money Bill. I am, however, is not justified. mindful of the limitations that would place on discussions The objective of our approach is to help relieve the in the other place and of the desire to debate the need extent to which households in London are being asked for the Thames tunnel, in particular. The need for the to contribute. As I said in my written ministerial statement proposed Thames tunnel will no doubt be discussed in on 3 November 2011, the Government believe that the detail if, as I expect, the waste water national policy private sector can and should finance this project, but statement is debated before the end of March. We will we accept that there are some risks that are not likely to also shortly be laying a draft order before Parliament to be borne by the private sector at an acceptable cost. We amend section 14 of the Planning Act 2008. This section are willing, in principle, to provide contingent financial 14 order would enable a major sewer such as the Thames support for exceptional project risks where this offers tunnel to be included as a nationally significant best value for money for Thames Water’s customers and infrastructure project, and we look forward to hearing taxpayers. However, I will want to be assured that, when any concerns that hon. Members may have. we offer this contingent support, taxpayers’ interests remain a top priority. We are working with Ofwat, Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): My Infrastructure UK and Thames Water to ensure that right hon. Friend will be aware that the Select Committee the financial structure for the proposed Thames tunnel undertook some work on the waste water policy statement, includes safeguards, so that the likelihood of Government largely addressing the whole issue of the Thames tunnel. support being called on is minimal. I am mildly surprised that we did not use that opportunity, either during the Committee’s work or the Government’s Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) response to it, to discuss this particular planning point. (LD): I do not oppose the Bill at all, but may I just alert my right hon. Friend to something? Leaving aside the Mrs Spelman: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. arguments about whether there should be a full tunnel As I just said, there were 21 working days for the or another solution, which I hope to address if I am national waste water policy to be debated from the called to speak, there are concerns about the Government moment it was laid before Parliament on 9 February. giving money to a company such as Thames Water. It is There is still time and I am sure that hon. Members will not a very transparent organisation, being a private take advantage of that. equity-funded company that has 10 layers of corporate structure, including in tax havens in some parts of the Finally, those looking forward to seeing the other world. The Government should attach tough conditions legislative reforms proposed in the White Paper should to support for any water company if this is to be seen as rest assured we are firmly committed to our programme transparent and good value for money. of market reform for the water and sewerage sector. Mrs Spelman: I share the right hon. Gentleman’s Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab): Will concern that there should be rigour in this exercise, and the right hon. Lady give way? I have just talked about the safeguards we are seeking. I can also assure him that we have been advised by Ernst Mrs Spelman: I am just summing up. and Young that the projected cost of this project does It is right, however, that the House should get the represent value for money, but the rigour will continue chance to scrutinise our proposals in detail and, to that to be maintained throughout the elaboration of the end, we will publish a draft water Bill in the coming project. months. I commend this Bill to the House. Several hon. Members rose— 4.15 pm Mrs Spelman: I wish to make a little more progress. Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): The Bill is welcome, We believe that simply having this power available if a little unexpected. It is welcome because it provides will help us to maximise private sector investment in the assistance to the people hit hardest by the botched Tory tunnel and keep the cost of financing down. The Bill in privatisation of the water industry, which created a 1858 that provided the money to construct a new sewer water company in the south-west with too few people to scheme for London, and to build the Embankment in pay for the £2 billion investment needed to create the order to improve the flow of water and of traffic, was south-west’s sewerage system over the following 20 years, rushed through Parliament and became law in a mere with just 3% of the population clearing up 30% of the 18 days. Although we do not anticipate such swift nation’s coastline. It left them with the highest unmetered progress, we need to ensure that assistance is provided water bills of any region and the Bill seeks to provide promptly to South West Water customers and, similarly, some relief, a fact that we welcome. 355 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 356 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Miss McIntosh: I am delighted that the hon. Lady Government did in 13 years? We have 3% of the population had the opportunity to visit my constituency and I look in the south-west and 30% of the beaches, and that is forward to hearing from her how that went. Does she why we have got these extreme costs. This Government not appreciate the fact that, as the Secretary of State have faced up to their responsibilities and delivered real has just mentioned, £90 billion has been invested since cash to water bill payers, rather than just talking about privatisation that probably would not otherwise have it like the previous Government. been invested? There was also a debate among the hon. Lady’s hon. Friends in the past about privatising the Mary Creagh: I am disappointed at the hon. Gentleman’s railways, but there is general agreement in the country tone, because he is ignoring the fact that we commissioned that water privatisation has been a success bar the the Walker report when we were in government. He is unfortunate circumstances that pertain in the south-west also ignoring the action we took, not least to prevent in the context of its having the longest coastline and the customers from being disconnected. I am sure that application of the EU bathing directive in that regard. many of his constituents were affected in the early days of water privatisation when hundreds of thousands of Mary Creagh: I am happy to report that the pigs I customers were cut off—disconnected—from their water met in the farmer’s field in the hon. Lady’s constituency supply for non-payment of bills. We changed that. We were extremely well. There was a very strong smell of changed the law and effectively instigated a right to bacon coming off them, even while they were alive, water, which we think is a basic human right and is which was very nice, and I was very happy to see them. required for basic dignity and decency. I am sure that On privatisation, we accept the consensus that affected many people in the south-west. privatisation is here to stay and that it has delivered the The Bill is welcome because it lays down powers investment in the infrastructure at no direct cost to the exercised by the Secretary of State to provide finance taxpayer. It is clear that that cost has been paid indirectly for the huge infrastructure investment that is needed to by customers through their bills, however, with particular clean up the Thames, which has had very little investment damage to customers in the south-west. That is why the since the great sewer drilled by Bazalgette 150 years ago. Bill is with us today. However, there are a number of questions that the Secretary of State must answer. First, why is the Bill so Stephen Gilbert (St Austell and Newquay) (LD): This short? We are in a time of drought not seen in this seems to be a particularly smelly debate. Can the hon. country since 1976, so why is she focusing on the little Lady explain why over 13 years, despite recognising the picture rather than the big picture? Why was the water problems of privatisation in Cornwall and the south-west, White Paper that was due in spring 2011 not published Labour did nothing to help address the concerns that until December 2011? Her colleague the Water Minister the Bill addresses? is now promising a draft water Bill this spring, so can she confirm that there will not be a full water Bill to Mary Creagh: Ihaveinmyhandagraphfrom take forward the other measures in Anna Walker’s Ofwat’s website about the annual average bill. The hon. report in the Queen’s Speech this May—yes or no? Gentleman will see—I am not sure whether he can see this far, but I would be happy to pass it on to him—that Mrs Spelman: The Under-Secretary of State for when we passed the relevant water legislation in 2000 water Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend bills dropped from an average of £325 a year to £285 a the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), will be year. During that water review period, water bills were happy to answer this point in detail, but we do not need much lower. We took action across the country and that new measures to do some of the important things we will also have affected the hon. Gentleman’s constituents need to do right now to tackle this drought. I mentioned in the south-west. He is also ignoring the fact that we the drought summit. As we saw last year, flexibility in asked Anna Walker to consider the issue of affordability. terms of abstraction licences helped our farmers and we We have had the Walker report and only one aspect of did not need hosepipe bans. its many recommendations is being debated today. The rest are being left, I am afraid, on the long finger. The extra time we took for the water White Paper improved it, putting resilience at its heart, and the Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I paid climate change risk assessment vindicated that decision. water bills in the south-west for 13 years under the hon. I am sure that hon. Members would like the time to Lady’s Government and I cannot remember my bills debate, through proper pre-legislative scrutiny, the measures ever being stable or not increasing considerably. I do set out in the water Bill. The Prime Minister gave an not know where she has got her figures from—perhaps undertaking to the Chairman of the Select Committee she is looking at a national figure—but I can assure her on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs that a draft that my bills have not reduced. bill would come forward within months and I have repeated that commitment today.

Mary Creagh: Does the hon. Lady think that the Mary Creagh: I take it from that answer that there £50 a year for which the Bill provides until the end of will not be a full water Bill in the Queen’s Speech this the spending review period is adequate compensation May. On the issue of abstraction, the proposals so far in for her constituents? It will undoubtedly be eaten up by the water White Paper talk about reforming the abstraction the next two years-worth of price increases in cash licence with an end date of 2027. The Secretary of State terms. has had three drought summits—

Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Does the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for hon. Lady accept that this coalition Government have Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): done more in 13 months than the previous Labour Much can be done now. 357 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 358 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Mary Creagh: That is fantastic; so we can look forward homes, schools and hospitals for non-payment. It is to a reform of the abstraction regime that will not take extraordinary to think that legislators would allow until 2027. provisions that let hospitals—care-givers and providers of sanitation—be cut off for non-payment of bills. We Frank Dobson: In considering any water shortages allowed for compulsory metering in areas of scarcity, that may or may not occur this year, will my hon. and a more muscular Ofwat, holding the water companies Friend and the Secretary of State bear in mind that in to account, has emerged in recent years. the 22 years since privatisation there has been no net increase in reservoir capacity in England? Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): Will the hon. Lady give way? Mary Creagh: I am sure that the Secretary of State Mary Creagh: I will make some progress, and then I will have digested that point from my right hon. Friend. will give way. Where specific issues required careful This is an orphan Bill, which is decoupled from the consideration, we brought in experts to advise us. We long-term reforms required to tackle climate change commissioned the Pitt report after the 2007 floods, the and keep water affordable. Why does the Bill, which Cave report to look at competition and innovation, and affects two areas—the south-west and London—not the Walker report, which analysed water charging and mention those two areas? Is it because that would make looked explicitly at the problem of high bills in the it a hybrid Bill, which would require full and proper south-west. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore scrutiny in the other place? Is it because by not mentioning (Huw Irranca-Davies) legislated for water companies to those two areas and drawing the Bill widely, the Secretary introduce social tariffs in the Flood and Water Management of State is able to define it as a money Bill, which means Act 2010. I shall now examine each of those issues in that it receives only a cursory one day’s scrutiny in the turn. other place? What possible reason could she have to Some have questioned why the Tory and Lib Dem fear their lordships’ scrutiny of this worthy and timely Government wanted to extend £40 million a year in Bill? We can surmise that she is keen to get her short Bill financial assistance to a region dominated by Tories through Parliament—an endeavour that does not seem and Lib Dems. I will leave others to speculate about the to have been properly communicated by the Whips to politics, but it is clear that customers in the south-west her own Back Benchers, if today’s sudden change of face bills that are, on average, 43% higher than in other business is anything to go by. areas. That is why we examined the issue in government and did the groundwork on helping those 700,000 Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I note that the hon. households. I pay tribute to colleagues in all parts of the Lady described the Bill as worthy and timely. I am House, and to our former colleague, Linda Gilroy, for curious about her line. She says that £50 per household their work on the issue. in the south-west is insufficient; I would like to know whether she and her party propose offering more to the Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): Perhaps the south-west, and how that would be funded. Secondly, in hon. Lady could tell the House the average cost of a view of the line that she is taking, is she suggesting that water bill in the south-west pre-privatisation, and say she and her party will vote against the Bill today? how that compared with bills in other parts of the country. Mary Creagh: I am happy to say that we will not vote against the Bill. If the hon. Gentleman waits, I will Mary Creagh: I do not know what the costs were, but come on to some of the wider affordability issues and I can say that all water bills were considerably lower will, I hope, answer some of his questions on the wider pre-privatisation. If the hon. Gentleman looks at graphs issues. of what happened to bills post-privatisation, he will see that they went up exponentially, particularly in the early The next unanswered question is: why are we debating 1990s. They were kept down in ’91 and ’92, and then the Bill now? We know that the Government ran out of they went up exponentially across the board. From meaningful new legislative business about two months memory, they were around £250; that has gone up ago, and the House has been surviving on thin rations—a massively. meagre diet of one-line-Whip business and Back-Bench business debates, valuable though they are. There was Mr Offord: How much was it in the south-west? no new Government legislation, but suddenly—boom!—out of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Mary Creagh: I do not have those figures. Does the Affairs, a Department whose Ministers are the embodiment hon. Gentleman have them? Perhaps he will share them of clout, grip and competence, spurted a sudden, short with the House in the debate. water Bill, born of the realisation that if the Department We accept the argument that the south-west requires has lost its slot in May’s Queen’s Speech, it had better additional help to keep water affordable, but stopping deliver on the Chancellor’s promises to the south-west there misses the point. Ofwat, the independent regulator, and his coalition partners. That happened just six short estimates that a fifth of households are already spending weeks before the end of one of the longest parliamentary more than 3% of their income on their water bills, yet Sessions ever held. Clearly, such a masterstroke of Ministers have failed to bring forward any plans to parliamentary planning and timing could have been tackle high bills, apart from in the south-west, which confected only by the Department that brought us the has the highest bills in the country. There, around forest sell-off. 200,000 people spend more than 3% of their disposable Labour in government corrected many of the injustices income on water bills, but in the Thames region there of water privatisation. As I said, in 2000 we banned are a staggering 1 million people in the same predicament, water companies from cutting off the water supply of so surely we should be working towards extending help 359 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 360 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill through a national affordability solution. Without one, The Government should be using existing data about the effect of the Government’s £50-a-year payment in benefits to ensure that everyone who is eligible is on the the south-west will soon be wiped out by price rises; WaterSure tariff. I hope we have described the heavy prices will rise by more than inflation in each of the lifting that we did on that tariff. Last year the Government next three years. The assistance is welcome, but decoupled consulted on taking on the costs of WaterSure and from wider reform, it will provide little lasting help on absorbing them at a cost to the Exchequer of £10 million water affordability. I hope that answers the point raised a year, as opposed to continuing the cross-subsidy. This by the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George). idea was dropped from the water White Paper. What We know from Ofwat that the groups most vulnerable has happened to that notional £10 million? Why is it not to water poverty are single parents, pensioners and being used to part-fund company social tariffs or a jobseekers. When we were in government, we introduced wider tariff to help the wider population? WaterSure, a national affordability scheme paid for by a Londoners will see their bills rise by £70 to £80 a year cross-subsidy from water customers, and paid only to when the Thames tunnel is finished in, we hope, 2020. metered households with three or more children or to London has some of the poorest people in the country people with certain medical conditions, but the limitations and a significant number living in water poverty.WaterSure of the scheme are apparent, because not everyone in will not help most of them. It is imperative that company water poverty has three or more children, and many social tariffs are introduced well before the Thames pensioners and jobseekers will not be eligible for the tunnel is completed to minimise the financial impact on scheme. Londoners, yet the Government’s draft guidance on There is a further problem of penetration of WaterSure. company social tariffs shows that they are adopting a Only a third of eligible households access the scheme, minimalist approach. so there is big issue relating to the role of the water The Government have ruled out data sharing, which companies in educating their customers about WaterSure is key to help water companies identify customers in and the role of places such as jobcentres in making sure water poverty and enable them automatically to reduce that people have access and understand their entitlement. their bill, which is obviously the least painful way, rather than allowing people to get into water debt and Mrs Spelman: When the hon. Lady’s party was in then taking action through the courts to pursue the power, what did it plan to do about the fact that two money. They have ruled out an affordability scheme thirds of people eligible under WaterSure were not administered nationally, and they have ruled out an taking it up? Will she acknowledge, therefore, that with extension of WaterSure, which is the only national the baton being passed to the present Government, who social tariff. Under DEFRA’s draft guidance, the design continue to run the WaterSure policy but with more of social tariff schemes is left entirely to the water determination to enable more eligible households to companies. Indeed, it is their choice whether to implement take it up, we have supported that with the introduction a scheme at all. This is the big society in action: a of guidance on social tariffs to all companies? postcode lottery for millions of customers facing water poverty. We believe that it is untenable for the Government to pass a water financial assistance Bill without providing Mary Creagh: The right hon. Lady might want to any assistance to the rest of the country. We will pursue answer her own question. We commissioned the Walker amendments that would oblige water companies to report, which said that Ofwat should do a six-monthly deliver a social tariff scheme that meets clear and uniform league table of water companies showing the best and criteria. worst performers. She has had 18 months. Has she implemented the recommendations of the Walker report? Dan Rogerson: On the question of how WaterSure She has made her own guidance to water companies on will be funded and placing obligations on companies, if social tariffs voluntary, not mandatory, and I fail to see we have a funded social tariff in the south-west, it will how allowing them to choose whether to implement have a disproportionate effect on the other bill payers them will help customers. who are paying into the pot. More work needs to be done before we start pushing regions down the route of Alison Seabeck: Perhaps I can shed some light on having generous social tariffs, because we need to know what was going on under the previous Government. In what costs are being loaded on to other bill payers in the Plymouth south-west area, a detailed pilot was the region. undertaken to identify people for whom water was unaffordable. That was to feed through into forward Mary Creagh: That is an excellent point. That is why policy development. Anna Walker used that as part of we were interested in the Government’s consultation, the basis for some of the work that she did, so it is not which talked about a national affordability scheme and true that we were not considering how to reach the offered the potential to absorb the costs of WaterSure. I people who needed help. hope that the Minister will offer some clarity on that in her closing speech and I am sure that we can work Mary Creagh: I thank my hon. Friend for that together on that. clarification. It is clear that much work was done in the south-west because it has the highest penetration of Simon Hughes: I do not mean to pre-empt what the WaterSure customers and the highest rate of metered hon. Lady might say on the other aspects of bills to households, despite the fact that water is plentiful in the water rate payers, but are she and her colleagues south-west, so it has nothing to do with scarcity. It has concerned—I put this point to the Secretary of State—that to do with people making a rational economic choice the value to water rate payers in London of the Thames and understanding that if they move to metered bills, tunnel, which is now priced a £4.1 billion, might not be their costs will go down. what it was when the previous Government thought it 361 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 362 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Simon Hughes] is contagious. We should all take the necessary precautions, but such indiscipline would never have been allowed was a good idea? There are big questions about whether when I was a Government assistant Whip. it represents value for money for water rate payers and There remain, however, a number of hurdles to clear, is the best solution in the light of the evidence. not least that of the Communities and Local Government Secretary, who has an effective veto over the tunnel, so Mary Creagh: We believe that the allocation of sums, DEFRA support alone will be insufficient. We see the guarantees, indemnities, or whatever form the financial tunnel, in addition to its environmental benefit, as an assistance takes, should be done with full parliamentary opportunity to create up to 4,000 direct jobs for Londoners, oversight, and I will address that when I move on to to expand apprenticeships and to regenerate London. clause 2. With the provision of financial assistance, we expect We believe that the tariffs should be paid for by not just those apprenticeships but higher-level training cracking down on bad debt, which the Secretary of to be a non-negotiable part of the deal. State mentioned in her speech. Ofwat’s website states: In an infrastructure project of this scale, complexity “More than five million households currently owe money on and duration, we should be setting targets not just for their water bills and over the last five years the amount owed has apprentices but for the number of young people who increased by more than 50%.” will achieve Masters-level civil engineering qualifications In 2010, £1.6 billion was outstanding, three times the over the project’s lifetime, as well as encouraging local amount of bad debt for gas and electricity bills, despite and national procurement to secure growth and the the fact that water bills are much lower. As she said, the economic recovery in London. people who cannot or will not pay add an average of No impact assessment has been produced alongside £15 a year to the bills of consumers who play by the the Bill. The rather short explanatory memorandum rules. Bad debt arises in part because landlords are states that this is because the Bill is associated with under no legal obligation to provide their tenants’ public expenditure, but clearly there will be burdens on details to water companies. Rather than a voluntary water companies when administering any schemes under approach, the Government should compel landlords to clauses 1 and 2, so what conditions will South West share their tenants’ details with water companies, and I Water have to fulfil? Presumably, there will be an audit know that the consultation is ongoing and is due to process, so what will the company’s administrative costs close fairly soon. If we reduce bad debt, we can reduce be, or has it agreed to waive them? everyone’s bills and fund social tariffs that help those Of more concern, however, is the fact that there is no struggling to pay. provision anywhere in the Bill to require potentially Clause 2 creates financial mechanisms and large sums of taxpayers’ money to be spent transparently guarantees to support the construction of the Thames and accountably. Clauses 1 and 2 state that undefined tunnel. Why do the Government avoid using the words “terms and conditions” can be attached to the use of “Thames tunnel”? Are they trying to avoid a proper public money, but that falls well short of making clear discussion of the merits? Labour supports the project. exactly what will happen, and we believe that certain Our Flood and Water Management Act 2010 introduced safeguards should be specified in the Bill. a “provision of infrastructure” regulation, creating the I had a little look at the Water Industry Act 1991 this framework for the tendering, designation and building morning, and section 152 states that the Government of such projects. However, costs have risen and time can pay out money to water firms only scales have stretched. The Government need to show “in the interests of national security.” leadership and make a clear commitment to the project So it is clear that infrastructure projects of the scale and and ensure that the right vehicle for managing and cost of the one before us were simply not envisaged at delivering it is put in place. The consultation process for the time of privatisation. the tunnel is vital for ensuring that sites are placed Today’s Bill shows those limitations, and section 154 correctly and the environmental impact of the work on of the 1991 Act also states very clearly that if any residents is minimised. financial assistance or guarantee is given, “the Secretary of State shall lay a statement of the guarantee Mr Slaughter: I agree with what my hon. Friend says before each House of Parliament” about the Thames tunnel, and to that extent I agree and with the Secretary of State. However, had the Secretary “as soon as possible after the end of each financial year…lay of State not chuntered through her speech in such a before each House of Parliament a statement relating to that cursory manner on an issue that is very important to sum.” London Members, I could have told her that the virulently The right hon. Lady says that the subsidy to South anti-tunnel comments that I quoted were not mine, but West Water will continue until the end of the next those of my neighbouring Tory MP, the hon. Member comprehensive spending review period, but that again is for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands), who happens to not in the Bill or in the explanatory memorandum, and be a Government Whip. This is just another example of we want to see those things guaranteed. members of the Government saying one thing in the House before going back to their constituencies and Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): Will the hon. saying the exact opposite. Lady commit her party, should it ever return to power, to continue the £50 discount each year? Mary Creagh: That used to be the province of the Liberal Democrats, but perhaps saying two different Mary Creagh: We have to look at the cost of water things, depending on whether one is at the top or the bills in the round—the average, unmetered cost of water bottom of the hill, in the House or in one’s constituency, bills. We want to bring them down throughout the 363 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 364 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill country, but we are not sure what sort of economy we Simon Hughes: The Minister knows that some of us will inherit, so I shall not make any election promises have been asking for that process to be followed, and we today. look forward to such a motion coming before the House. We will seek to amend the Bill in Committee so that I therefore endorse the hon. Lady’s request, which I the Government are required to seek further parliamentary think will have widespread support from all parties. approval for such payments through the laying of a Miss McIntosh: I am sure the Secretary of State, statutory instrument. That power should be triggered wherever she is, and my hon. Friend the Minister will after a sober assessment of the facts, and after the have heard that point. Secretary of State has made her case to the House. The explanatory memorandum is silent on state aid. Mr Love: I, too, express my interest in having a Is the Bill compatible with EU state aid rules? Has the debate on the national policy statement, which is very Environment Secretary discussed the matter with the important. The hon. Lady mentioned the need for an European Commission? [Interruption.] Okay. So water amendable motion, but from speaking to the Minister’s customers do not run any risk of having to repay the office and the Department’s parliamentary office, I assistance at a later date. That is a relief. understand that it will be non-amendable. An amendable In conclusion, despite the right hon. Lady’s warm one would be greatly preferable. words, this “financial assistance” Bill is poorly named. Miss McIntosh: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, It extends no financial assistance to anyone except and I commend his work in bringing his constituents’ those living in the south-west. It is an orphan Bill, concerns to the Select Committee and continuing to conceived in haste, which is silent on the wider affordability represent them now. Those of us who work in London issues, and it ignores the cost-of-living crisis for households during the week all wish to see the super-sewer in place, hit by this Government’s assault on the squeezed middle. but we understand the length of time that it will take. We recognise that privatised water has brought benefits, There has not been an engineering project of that with £90 billion invested in our infrastructure at no nature since, I think, 1858, and the Committee has no direct cost to the taxpayer, and we believe that water doubt about the impact that the sewer’s construction should remain a properly regulated private industry. will have on his constituents and others. Today, however, is a day for thinking about the water The Committee’s wish, as recorded in our report, is customer. Since privatisation, customers’bills have increased for an amendable motion, and I am delighted that there year on year, wherever they live. Many have found is support for that. It may be within the gift not of the themselves adjusting to metered water, and by 2015 Minister but of the party managers, and looking further there will for the first time be more metered customers along the Treasury Bench I see how well represented than unmetered ones. Climate change will mean more they are today. I am sure that our point will be taken regions being under greater water stress, with consequences back to the highest possible authorities. I welcome, in for customers’ water use. That is why it is down to us to passing, the Leader of the House’s commitment to hammer out a new consensus on water affordability. I allow more time for this debate. ask Ministers to work with us to amend the Bill and help hard-pressed families. At the conclusion of her speech, the Secretary of State made some remarks—on which, unfortunately, she would not take any interventions—about the 4.45 pm amendment relating to planning, which will be of great Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I interest to the Select Committee and, I am sure, to right congratulate the Secretary of State and the Department hon. and hon. Members who live along the path of the on bringing forward what some might call a small but proposed super-sewer. I hope that my hon. Friend the perfectly formed Bill. The House will be at a loss to Minister will be able to clarify those remarks. understand from what the shadow Secretary of State On the waste water national policy statement, the said whether the Labour party is in favour of the Bill, Committee is pleased that the Government’s response the Thames tunnel super-sewer structure and the more to our report set out the areas where DEFRA has affordable water bills that the Bill proposes. accepted our recommendations and consequently amended I would have welcomed the opportunity to put my the NPS—for example, in line with our recommendation points to the Secretary of State, but I see that she has that the inclusion of a project in Ofwat’s asset management been called away urgently. She talked about the 21 days plan be removed as a criterion of proof of the need for available for a debate on the national waste water policy. the project. I am delighted that the relevant documents have been Neil Parish: It is absolutely right that the planning selected for this debate, which allows me to draw attention process be taken into consideration. In my view, the to the conclusions in the Environment, Food and Rural Thames tunnel must go ahead, because when I was Affairs Committee’s fourth report, on the draft national returning to Battersea from this House late one evening, policy statement on waste water. We stated: cycling along the Embankment, the tide was low, and I “Given the importance of this NPS in delivering waste water could smell the sewage being pumped out into the and water quality objectives, we recommend that it be subject to a Thames. [Interruption.] Hon. Members may turn their debate on the floor of the House of Commons on an amendable noses up, but I have smelt it, and we must do something motion prior to desgination.” about it. When the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), winds up the Miss McIntosh: Given what the hon. Member for debate either today or on some future date, will he Edmonton (Mr Love) said as well, I do not think that confirm whether the Government intend to table an the House is in any doubt about the need for the amendable motion for debate? Thames tunnel super-sewer, but we should not 365 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 366 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Miss McIntosh] assessment has been undertaken. Clearly, it is not just about public expenditure; a substantial amount of money underestimate how long the project will take and its is being requested by the water companies, through the cost. Concerns about rising costs, to which hon. Members Government, to give a £50 reduction. The Minister will alluded, were expressed in the evidence to the Committee. be aware that some of those who live in and represent the south-west are concerned that increases in inflation Mary Creagh: The hon. Lady said that she is not will wipe out the £50 reduction. clear whether we support the Bill. I want to put it on the Today, the Select Committee took evidence from the record that I said at several points that we do support it. Minister of State, Cabinet Office, who is responsible for As for whether we would continue with it, we would providing policy advice. He told us that an impact have no plans to repeal it in government if we were assessment is meant to look at the environmental impact elected in 2015. of a project. I am not suggesting that the Bill is defective because it does not have an impact assessment, but I Miss McIntosh: I am sure that the whole House will would like to record my personal disappointment that welcome the hon. Lady’s helpful clarification, because there is no impact assessment. It would have allowed her concluding remarks were a little ambivalent. the House to perform proper scrutiny on Second Reading Returning to DEFRA’s acceptance of some of our and in subsequent parliamentary stages. It should have conclusions, some of the site-specific material has been been incumbent on the Government to produce an moved to an annex that is part of the document that is impact assessment on the implications for the water not to be relied on by the decision maker in reaching a companies of the reduction of water bills in the south-west decision on a project. That meets, to some extent, our of England and on the impact that the Bill will have on criticism about the inclusion of weak material on the Thames Water. Thames tunnel, as well as on Deephams sewerage treatment The Select Committee produced an excellent first works. Perhaps my hon. Friend the Minister will also report of this Parliament, if I may describe it as such, give us a status report on those treatment works. entitled, “Future flood and water management legislation”. It is right at this moment to pay tribute to the work of David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): In the Select the previous Government. There was all-party support Committee’s consideration of the £50 reduction in the for the Pitt report and its recommendations. There was south-west, did it look at water poverty more generally also all-party support for, and obviously positive scrutiny across the United Kingdom, including whether other of, the Flood and Water Management Act 2010. The regions have more consumers in water poverty than the fact that we are having to wait for the draft water Bill, south-west, such that it might have been fairer for the which will cover all the other aspects, is a source of money to have been allocated in a different way? concern. We are approaching apace 30 June 2013, when the Association of British Insurers will look to replace Miss McIntosh: In our report on the Thames tunnel, its statement of principles on the provision of flood we did not consider aspects of affordability, which are insurance. There will also be a host of other measures rightly covered in an earlier report to which I will turn to consider. shortly. Perhaps in responding, the Minister could explain I am delighted that DEFRA accepts that the remaining what he is doing about insurance. I want to record my site-specific sections have been improved and that the personal resistance to any state funding of insurance. Government have, as recommended by the Committee, There are hard cases, which many of us will have in our moved to change the definitions in the Planning Act own constituencies, where houses remain at a substantial 2008 to include sewerage transfer and storage projects or high risk of flooding. I can think of examples such as such as the Thames tunnel in the process for deciding Thirsk, Pickering, Malton in the past, and Sinnington applications for nationally significant infrastructure projects. at the moment. There are therefore insurance aspects The Committee welcomes that. I hope that we have that need to be considered. However, as soon as a discharged our duties comprehensively, given that this Government introduce an element of state funding or was one of our first opportunities to do so under the state insurance, it leads others who are on a low or fixed Planning Act. income to argue that they have concerns about their ability to pay insurance. I know from the visits I made Simon Hughes: I pay tribute to the hon. Lady and her as shadow floods Minister to parts of the country such colleagues on the Select Committee. May I make an as Cumbria that there is real concern, particularly when unashamed, but well-linked plug? Next Tuesday, 6 March, properties are rented, about whether those on low incomes at 7 o’clock in Committee Room 11, I will be hosting a can afford even contents insurance. meeting to discuss the state of the issues that relate to the Thames tunnel. I hope that she or one of her Stephen Gilbert: With some 200,000 homes in the colleagues will be able to come and listen to what is country at risk of flooding, what mechanism would my said. hon. Friend propose for ensuring that the people affected can access affordable insurance? Miss McIntosh: I am most grateful. If it does not clash with our Committee meeting, all of us who are Miss McIntosh: Speaking in an entirely personal available will endeavour to be there. capacity, and looking at sustainable development and I echo the comments of the hon. Member for Wakefield flood prevention, the one thing we could do today is to (Mary Creagh) about there not being an impact assessment. stop building on floodplains. Perhaps the House would The explanatory notes state that because the Bill is like to unite around that and an amendment could be concerned solely with public expenditure, no impact tabled to a future water Bill. 367 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 368 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill There are things that we can do now. There has been management legislation and the Government’s response—is lots in the papers recently about water stress and scarcity, the Gray review on regulatory aspects. I hope my and drought. That will inevitably have an impact on hon. Friend the Minister confirms that that will be homes. There is a risk of subsidence and there are included in the draft Bill, along with the Cave review, reports of roads cracking. That obviously has insurance which is on aspects of competition—specifically, the implications for householders and business properties, level of competition that there will be—and the Walker but also for highways. Again in a personal capacity, I review. In times of water stress and scarcity, it is important challenge the Minister on how we will pay in those that we encourage people to use water sensibly and, as mostly rural areas for roads that are cracking now Ofwat and Anna Walker have frequently said, that we because of drought rather than the flood damage that encourage households and businesses not to heat their occurred in the previous two years. water beyond the supply that they need, because doing I welcome the fact that our report discusses the new so leads to unsustainable use. responsibilities of the upper-tier authorities for flood Another issue pertains specifically to the Thames and water management, and that funds are available. tunnel and more widely. The Committee is persuaded The Government response talks about providing the that the Thames tunnel is the best way to proceed for funding to lead local flood authorities through direct the purposes intended, because sustainable drainage grants and says that that is expected to fund fully their systems were excluded. However, we just touched on new responsibilities under the Act. However, my local how to prevent floods, and I hope the Minister can authority tells me that those moneys are not ring-fenced. today report on progress on establishing sustainable If that is the case, and we are reducing, because of drainage systems throughout England and Wales. Will austerity, the money for the core tasks of the upper-tier he renew the commitment, or give us a once-and-for-all-time authorities—county and unitary—that will pose real commitment, that the Government will end the automatic difficulty for them, and I put that to the Minister. right to connect, which goes to the heart of water stress My hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton and scarcity? In Filey in my area, 300 houses will be (Neil Parish) mentioned affordability. The Minister and built on a functional floodplain against the council’s others have been challenged about that in many forums, advice. The field takes surface water surplus, but there is not only the Select Committee, but all-party groups. It nowhere to displace it to. Yorkshire Water is trying hard is right that the Bill focuses on affordability for the to accommodate proper capacity and connection for south-west region. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear.”] I those 300 extra homes without making others short of have no connection with the south-west, other than supply, but the area is not flush with water, if you will hoping that I have many friends on both sides of the pardon the expression, Mr Deputy Speaker. House who represent the region extremely ably. However, I welcome the debate and the opportunity to draw the there is a particular issue in that the population is small Committee’s wider concerns to the House and the Minister. and there is a heavy emphasis on fixed and lower On the two specific points to which my right hon. incomes. As I said, the application of the EU drinking Friend the Secretary of State referred, I hope the Minister water directive, and especially the bathing water directive, confirms that there will be a debate on an amendable posed enormous problems to the south-west. motion on the Floor of the House on the national I therefore welcome the fact that the Bill addresses policy statement on waste, and that he clarifies what affordability. I hope that when the House has ample planning issue the Government will bring before the time—I am sorry if it will not be this year; we keep House. hearing that something will happen in the coming weeks or the coming months—and the draft Bill is before us, 5.8 pm we can address some of the other affordability problems Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): It is a and also a social tariff. pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Thirsk and David Mowat: I have listened to the points about the Malton (Miss McIntosh), who as Chair of the Environment, south-west, and I, too, have no problem with the region Food and Rural Affairs Committee obviously speaks being helped through the Bill. However, there is an issue with great authority on such matters. As one of her about water poverty and in which regions it is greatest. vice-chairs on the all-party parliamentary group on There is a case for helping them, notwithstanding the local environmental quality, I am used to following specific problems that exist in the south-west. I believe her—I have certainly done so for the past couple of that there is more water poverty in the north-west than years. Perhaps in future I will get ahead of her, but that the south-west, and there is therefore a case for doing is something to hope for. something there at the same time. I shall not speak for long. I want to raise two issues, the first of which is the Thames tideway tunnel and how Miss McIntosh: I do not want to rehearse the arguments it will impact on my constituency. I am grateful to the I have just made, but every hon. Member could point to Minister, who has responsibility for the natural environment examples of water poverty. I am sure all of us have and fisheries, for the letter he sent to London MPs constituents who write to us or come to our surgeries to yesterday to explain how the Bill will help. The second talk about the affordability of their bills. Dealing with issue relates to water for fire sprinkler systems, which that is the role of Ofwat. I should like to record my we have discussed before. It could be referred to in the thanks to the chief executive, and more especially the Water Industry Act 1991, which the Bill amends. This chairman, of Ofwat for their work in that regard. They might be a missed opportunity to amend the Act further have a real role to play. to deal with that issue. One other piece of unfinished business that I expect I shall deal with the constituency matter first. As a to be included in the draft water Bill—this was raised in former Minister in the Department for Environment, the Committee’s scrutiny of future flood and water Food and Rural Affairs and a former Minister for 369 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 370 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Jim Fitzpatrick] Frank Dobson: Will my hon. Friend bear it in mind, when talking about the extra expense, that Thames London, I am familiar with the challenges facing the Water, over the past six or seven years, has made profits Government in dealing with the problem of massive totalling £1 billion, which have been paid out to its sewage discharges into the Thames. Since the formation currently Australian shareholders and before that its of the coalition Government, all the political parties, as German shareholders? well as the Select Committee, have considered the matter and concluded that something needs to be done. Jim Fitzpatrick: My right hon. Friend makes an In my constituency, Thames Water’s original plans important point that will be a matter for scrutiny in would have taken nearly all of King Edward memorial Committee. I expect it to be raised in Committee in due park, which, given the population density, is one of the course. very few green open spaces in Tower Hamlets in east East London assembly member John Biggs and I are London. Not surprisingly, the plans caused considerable seeking Thames Water’s latest considerations, and obviously outrage—and that hostility continues today—and it led the Bill would affect the building of the Thames tideway to the formation of the Save King Edward Memorial tunnel. The local community is resolute on this issue. Park campaign. It comprises local residents, freeholders, My only concern about the choice between the Heckford leaseholders, council and social tenants, and residents street site and the Thames foreshore site is that building from the new expensive blocks on the river as well as the interceptor to the sewer on the foreshore would from the established estates and nearby.All were determined mean much more traffic by water, on the Thames. If to protect the park from being destroyed by Thames Heckford street is chosen, there will be several thousand Water. heavy goods vehicles on the streets of Tower Hamlets I pay tribute not only to the campaign officers but to and further east for several years. That would not be a all residents, local councillors and officers of Tower welcome dimension, but these things are in the balance, Hamlets council, as well as to the local papers, the and obviously we are pressing for the best possible East London Advertiser and The Wharf, for the outcome for the local community. campaign to save the park. The campaign officers are The second issue that I want briefly to mention is fire Carl Dunsire, Emma Dunsire, Robin Milward, Toni sprinklers. I pay tribute to the Minister, who is always Davey, Mahbub Mamun Alam, Raihan Islam and Mark courteous and efficient. I am grateful for the meeting Baynes. They have all done an excellent job bringing the that he afforded me and the officers of the all-party community together and lobbying Thames Water and group on fire safety and rescue to discuss the matter myself—and I have been in discussions with DEFRA, only four to five weeks ago. There is a myth perpetrated so the campaign has clearly made an impact. Local by the media—mostly in adverts on TV and in the celebrities, including Sir Ian McKellen, Lee Hurst and cinema—that when a fire in a building activates the Helen Mirren—to name but a few—have also registered sprinkler system, every sprinkler right across the building their support. is activated and the whole place is doused in water and damaged. The reality, of course, is that the only sprinkler I must also pay tribute and give credit to Thames activated is the sprinkler head immediately above the Water. That will not go down well in the constituency seat of the fire, as the heat generated by the fire melts because it is still regarded pretty much as the enemy, but the soldered link, causing the blockage to fall away and to its credit, it has engaged with us, understood and allowing the water to act as an extinguishing agent. The several times changed its plans for King Edward memorial problem with the myth is that people are frightened of park. Mr Phil Stride and his team deserve credit for sprinklers, because they think that if they install them that. Some months ago, Thames Water also engaged as in their building and they are inadvertently actuated—we a consultant our former colleague, Mr Martin Salter, know that smoke detectors can go off because of burning the former Reading MP.That has helped the consultation toast—their home would be damaged. However, that is process with local residents. Also, I recently chaired a not the case, and the cost to society of not installing constituency public meeting to which more than 100 people sprinkler systems in buildings includes the hundreds of turned up. millions of pounds lost to schools damaged by fire The Save KEMP campaign, which, as well as local every year—a cost that is often passed on to local residents, comprises people of professional standing—for council tax payers, as most local authorities self-insure. example, Carl Dunsire is an engineer—identified an alternative brownfield site on Heckford street. That Mr Slaughter: My hon. Friend is making a good proposal was put to Thames Water a considerable time point about a matter that was brought home to me ago, and since then the company has floated it as a recently. Hon. Members will remember the serious fire secondary option. Having said that, the company’s preferred that closed Wood lane, opposite the BBC in Shepherd’s option remains to build out on to the river from the Bush—perhaps that is why it got so much publicity. The foreshore of King Edward memorial park, rather than consequence of such events in major buildings with no in the park. sprinkler systems is not just the risk of loss of life, but John Biggs, the Greater London assembly member often the permanent loss of jobs where buildings cannot for east London, and I wrote to Thames Water this reopen and the huge damage to industrial and public week seeking the latest consideration of the two options buildings. and the costings. Heckford might be slightly more expensive but given the disruption to the local community, the Jim Fitzpatrick: My hon. Friend anticipates the point support for the project and everything else, if the costs that I am coming to, immediately after I make the point were equitable, the local community would be strongly that when a school burns down, the problem is not just in favour of Heckford. the damaged building, but the disruption to the education 371 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 372 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill of the students at that educational establishment and welcomed by the fire service and the fire industry as the impact on parents, who have to take their kids to another major step towards a safer society, but I recognise schools further away, with disruption to friendships and that that might not be possible yet. School fires are the rest of it. As for the point that he correctly makes, increasing, and I am told that 10% of schools are when there is damage to an industrial or commercial affected by vandalism involving fires each year. More premises, there is not only the damage to the building, fires are occurring during school hours, and it is only a but the cost of insurance for the company, a loss of matter of time before there is a major tragedy. Most fire production and, more often than not, unemployment legislation is reactive and retrospective, drafted on the costs to the individuals who work on those premises, back of a major loss of life. The amendment that I have because it takes months and sometimes longer to rebuild suggested could take us forward significantly, and protect or replace, if at all possible. our children in the future. Most critical of all is the loss of life. Fire deaths affect In conclusion—and as a complete aside—we really the most vulnerable in society. The majority of people need to hold a fire evacuation drill in this place at some who die in fires are the most vulnerable—the old, the point, because we need to give leadership to the rest of sick, the young, people with social difficulties or people the country on these issues. I am grateful for your with addiction problems. The most vulnerable are the indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker. ones who predominantly die in fires. Tragically, we have recently seen a number of major multiple fatalities 5.22 pm across the country, most recently in London—in what was formerly Brent East—where a mother and five Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): It is always a great children died in a fire. However, the experience of local pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Poplar and authorities where fire sprinklers are the norm is entirely Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick). As a former fireman, he different. There is a district in Arizona called Scottsdale— demonstrates his passion and knowledge of that subject. one of Phoenix’s five districts—that is the fire sprinkler The last two contributions have shown how wide-ranging capital of the world, as I am sure the House will be this debate can be— pleased to learn. Scottsdale has had a city ordinance for 30 years that says that if someone builds something, Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I have they have to install a sprinkler system. One person has been thanked for my indulgence, but let us just say that died in a fire in Scottsdale in 30 years. Scottsdale has a conversation went on about how relevant some of the 250,000 people. They smoke, they cook, they burn contributions were. Please do not test my patience too candles and they probably have heating too, despite the much. desert climate. Sprinklers save lives. That is now becoming the UK experience. More local authorities, more registered Andrew George: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I social landlords and more developers are recognising was in no way implying any criticism of your great the benefits of sprinkler systems. office, or of the way in which you apply the rules to our There has been extensive correspondence between debates. I have carefully cut out of my speech all the the all-party group and DEFRA on the Water Industry parts referring to swimming and surfing in the waters of Act 1991. If I may, I shall quote from a letter from the south-west, and any other matters that you might former chief fire officer Ronnie King, who is a highly consider a further indulgence. regarded officer in the fire service, as well as being the As a Member of Parliament from the south-west, it is active administrative secretary of the all-party parliamentary my primary objective to address the two issues that group on fire safety and rescue and the chair of the represent the primary purpose of this three-clause Bill water liaison group. In reference to the Act, which the before us today. Having said that, the hon. Member for Bill amends, he says: Poplar and Limehouse spoke about the associated issue “To this end I outline in this letter a proposed change to of fire sprinklers, which I hope will be dealt with section 57 on the provision of water for firefighting. Section 57 elsewhere. Similarly, I know that the hon. Member for covers the duty to provide water for firefighting and currently this Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) never misses the duty is limited solely to providing water from designated fire opportunity to address the important matter of flood hydrants. Increasingly householders are seeing the benefit of installing sprinkler systems, which will lead to significant reductions defences in her constituency. in fire deaths and injuries if they could be more widely used. I come to this debate to congratulate the Government Under the current legislation such supplies are classified as non- warmly on what they are achieving through this measure, domestic supplies and are subject to agreement of terms and particularly by the clause that is intended, although not conditions on a case by case basis. An amendment of section 57 by name, to benefit or at least address an unfairness to to include as firefighting water that taken from service pipes connected to a sprinkler system will clarify the status of connections the water bill payers of South West Water that has gone to the water system for automatic fire sprinkler purposes. The on for 22 years. The unfairness has been identified current ambiguity is a barrier to the proliferation of sprinkler across all parties and by the Anna Walker review, which systems.” was commissioned by the previous Government in August I acknowledge that the Minister has asked his officials 2008 and concluded in December 2009—just before the to examine that matter and to report on it. If nothing last general election. It highlighted the need to address can be done in this Bill, we would be grateful if it could this significant and long-standing unfairness. be considered for the water Bill that is coming along not I welcomed the comments of the shadow Secretary of far behind it. I also want to acknowledge that the vast State, the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh). majority of the water companies already do the right She clearly enters into debates in a full-blooded manner thing in co-operating, without the legislative clarity that in a debating Chamber that often becomes extremely the proposed amendment would provide. An amendment tribal. At certain points in the debate, I was not sure to the Water Industry Act 1991 in the Bill would be whether Labour Members were going to be encouraged 373 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 374 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Andrew George] Water has to be asked for what is known as an “assessed charge”, which often results in those people—inevitably, to vote against the Bill. Following my intervention on they are vulnerable households—having their water bill the hon. Lady, however, she made it clear that she and halved or significantly reduced to below that level. So her hon. Friends would support the Bill. That will there is further work to do to address the problems of resonate through the House, following what is, after all, water affordability for those living in households that a cross-party consensus on this issue. She raised legitimate cannot convert from unmetered to metered properties. I questions about problems of affordability—across the have asked South West Water if they would, as a default, country generally, but particularly for the customers of automatically offer the assessed charge to those living South West Water—that need to be looked at further. I in such accommodation, rather than their having to hope that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary will deal trigger it by requesting it. That is an important point. with some of those issues in his response. I hope, too, that legislation will be forthcoming soon after the next Miss McIntosh: May I return to the hon. Gentleman’s Queen’s Speech so that we can further meet concerns comment about almost being able to predict the dividend about affordability issues. at the beginning of the year? Water companies do not Speaking about how South West Water operates itself, rely solely on water bills for their income and investment. I have in the past called it an ethics-free and risk-free Given that they are now viewed as a fairly reliable money extortion system. I know that is rather strong investment for pension and insurance funds, is it not a language; it goes back primarily to the days when Bill good thing that their dividend is fairly stable? Fraser was the chief executive of South West Water. Andrew George: I certainly would not wish to denigrate His management of the business in a rather belligerent or diminish in any way the importance of successful and Thatcherite style has largely been remedied by both British companies. Where a company provides a good his successors, Bob Baty and Chris Loughlin. With basis for investors, I celebrate that, along with others. I Chris Loughlin and his board of directors addressing am simply commenting on the reality of the situation of the legacy, it might no longer be appropriate to describe water companies in relation to all other private companies, the company as ethics-free. Chris Loughlin has managed which ply their trade in a much more risky environment. the company well and genuinely wants to address the That is simply a matter of fact, not of debate. concerns about water affordability. I take my hat off to him and his board members for their efforts. Simon Hughes: There is a link between the experience That said, one thing we cannot escape from is the fact of colleagues and constituents in the south-west and that all water companies—certainly including South that of people in the Thames area, because Kemble West Water—have a monopoly within their areas. There used to own South West Water and it now owns Thames is effectively no competition at all. Significant questions Water. When it owned South West Water the bills were have been raised about the effectiveness of Ofwat as a significantly high and there were a lot of complaints. regulator. It is supposed to establish the “K” factor People are fearful that some of the practices it used every few years to constrain the levering up of water then, which included paying out dividends greater than bills, but water companies are still able almost to predict its income—that seems to be not about saving the the end-of-year dividends at the beginning of each capital—might be being applied at the moment. financial year. Andrew George: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend Sheryll Murray: Does my hon. Friend agree that for that intervention. about 20,000 households in the south-west could reduce On the question of the high water bills in the south-west, their bills by about £350 to £400 if they took up the let me put on record the fact that in 2010-11, bills for option of water meters, and that many of those households South West Water customers were, on average, £486, include the elderly and the most vulnerable? which is certainly higher than the average bills in the rest of the country, which were £339. Unmetered customers Andrew George: I absolutely agree that there are still had much higher bills, of course, at a rate of £721 whereas many customers of South West Water who could enjoy bills for metered customers in the south-west were £394 on lower bills as a result of transferring to water meters. average. As I and others have said, that was the focus of Ultimately, however, the unit charges are bound to have the Anna Walker inquiry. to increase once all households switch to water meters. Mr Offord: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this Unmetered households are currently charged significantly is about not only the cost of water bills in the south-west more than metered households, so when companies but the fact that the average weekly wage is about plan for the future it will simply not be possible for 30% lower than that in parts of the south-east and them to maintain the same level of profitability and London? dividend to their shareholders if they continue to charge at the current rate. Andrew George: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The point that my hon. Friend makes is extremely Cornwall has been at the bottom of the earnings league valid, but I must also say that I have taken up issues table pretty much since records began. It has significantly with South West Water, as I know other hon. Members higher water bills than anywhere else in the country, have done. One such issue relates to customers living in high levels of unemployment in some parts, as well as sheltered accommodation or in houses in multiple dependants on benefit, pensioner households and so occupation where they have single unmetered bills but on, and if we add to that the low average incomes across do not have the benefit of being able to convert their the households in the area, it is inevitable that in many property on to a meter because of the circumstances in households people will pay more than 3% of their which they live. In those circumstances South West income to meet their water bills. 375 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 376 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said measure for targeting vulnerable households. However, earlier, the problem is partly caused by a lower level of because of the problems with adopting a WaterSure infrastructure at the time of privatisation in the early system across the south-west and because of the evident ’90s and by the fact that the south-west has been unwillingness of water rate payers in the south-west to significantly more burdened by the costs of the bathing make any further contribution to a scheme that would water directive than any other region in the country. I benefit vulnerable households, it is unlikely that those have drawn the same parallel as others. The bathing households will be able to benefit from any application waters around the Cornish and south-west coast are a of a regionally based WaterSure system. I therefore national asset yet only 3% of the population must pay urge my hon. Friend the Minister to look again at for the cost of cleaning up. The cost is very expensive, whether we can resurrect any form of a national WaterSure because many outfalls must all be dealt with very system. Clearly, we will go back to South West Water expensively, which is the primary cause of the excessive and talk to it again about how it might address the issue bills across the south-west. The general populace enjoy of particularly vulnerable households. other national assets, such as the museums and galleries A number of matters need to be addressed and I am of London, and it is the general taxpayer who pays for sorry that I have not addressed those concerning London, them. We do not ask just London taxpayers to pay for but I know they will be addressed by many other the National Gallery, the British Museum and the other people. I look forward to hearing my hon. Friend’s museums—we, as a country, contribute and that is an reply and his responses to the questions that have been important parallel. raised. There has been a long-standing campaign and the Anna Walker review was rather belated but at least 5.42 pm welcome and took us a long way down that road. I congratulate the previous Government for that and pay Dame Joan Ruddock (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab): tribute, as other hon. Members have, to Linda Gilroy, a May I start by apologising to the House? I have an former Member of this House who contributed a great urgent constituency engagement and will have to leave deal towards advancing the case for fairness in the before we conclude the debate. billing of water customers, particularly in the south-west. Let me say at the outset that my constituents and I I also congratulate the hon. Member for Plymouth, support the construction of the Thames tunnel. There Moor View (Alison Seabeck) for calling a debate on 14 is no doubt that we cannot continue to discharge raw June 2010, which can be found at column 710 of Hansard, sewage into the Thames. Much as I would like to debate and my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) many of the wider issues, I am essentially here to make for doing so on 9 March 2011. a statement on behalf of my constituents, because There are issues that need to be addressed. To sum Thames Water has a proposal to intercept the Deptford up—I am aware that I have taken as much time as the storm relief sewer that runs through Deptford discharging previous speakers—I hope the Minister will address my north into the Thames. questions. Clause 1(3) concerns the discretion of the The site selected by Thames Water is a triangle of Secretary of State in determining which customers within green, open space—the Crossfield amenity green, any particular water company area might benefit from which is bounded by Coffey street, Crossfield street and the intervention of the Secretary of State to vary the Deptford Church street. For those who do not know it, bills or make a contribution, and my question, which Deptford Church street is a major dual carriageway relates back to the announcement of the payment of intercepting the Crossfield residential housing estate. £50 per household in last year’s autumn statement, Thames Water proposes at least four years’ work on the concerns how a household will be defined. site, the permanent legacy of which will be four main ventilation columns at least 6 metres high, with associated Andrew George: In my area, a large number of control units and maintenance requirements. During households run bed-and-breakfast facilities, guest houses the phase one consultation, the preferred site was Borthwick and other businesses, and they are businesses for the wharf foreshore, but for the phase two consultation purposes of South West Water’s billing structure. However, Deptford Church street is the preferred site and the there are also many wealthy second home owners who Borthwick wharf foreshore is put forward, together have water meters and pay virtually nothing towards with the Sue Godfrey nature reserve in Bronze street, as the very expensive costs of getting water to their properties, an alternative. which are often very remote—on cliffs and so on—and We in Deptford cannot understand Thames Water’s taking away their sewage. Often, they let their properties change of plans, which will have a great impact on an at very expensive prices and make a lot of money, but exceptional area of my constituency. The phase two they are not considered to be businesses and so they will consultation site information paper identifies three reasons get the benefit of the reduction of £50 per household. why Deptford Church street is now preferred. The That clear and evident unfairness is one of many, but I reasons given are, first, that Deptford Church street has shall not bore the House with a raft of examples regarding relatively good access compared to Borthwick wharf this issue of how households should be defined. If we foreshore; secondly, that using Deptford Church street are addressing issues of vulnerability and affordability would avoid work to the Thames foreshore; and, thirdly amongst water rate payers, we need to be very careful that the potential effects on residents, visitors and business how we define households. amenity would be less than with the alternative site. The £50 per household reduction is a rather blunt On access, no traffic impact assessment is provided to instrument. Yes, it is efficient and it means that the enable comparison between the two sites, so how can we administrative costs will, one hopes, be less than would judge? On avoiding work on the foreshore, there is a have been the case with a more elegant and sophisticated particular paradox. The majority of the site selection 377 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 378 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Dame Joan Ruddock] and buses in a two-way traffic scheme, particularly as Deptford Church street is on the borough’s oversized assessments favour sites in close proximity to the river, vehicle route. with jetty or wharf facilities. Clearly, the Borthwick There can be no doubt that the proposed works will wharf foreshore would have a great advantage over impact on existing businesses along Crossfield street, Deptford High street, in that material and spoil could particularly given that access, both vehicle and pedestrian, be delivered and removed using the River Thames. could be disrupted and restricted. The construction Furthermore, the alternative site is located at the point vehicle movements would have a highway safety impact at which the combined sewer overflows are discharged in Coffey street, particularly for those accessing St Paul’s into the River Thames. Intercepting the sewer at that church, and when the movements coincide with St point would capture the contents of the entire length of Joseph’s school’s arrival and departure times. Narrowing the sewer. Intercepting it further inland, at Deptford Crossfield street would have an impact on the commercial Church street, would leave a length of the sewer uncaptured. units on Crossfield street, particularly in relation to Thames Water has provided no data on the number deliveries and servicing. A further raft of transport of people, households and businesses affected at both concerns have been raised by Lewisham council in its sites, so it is impossible to compare the sites. In addition, formal objections to Thames Water, but they are too the impact on St Joseph’s Catholic primary school on numerous for me to go into now. Deptford Church street is direct and severe when compared to any comparable community impact resulting from Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Hear, hear. the use of the Borthwick wharf foreshore. A number of businesses will be directly affected by the use of Deptford Dame Joan Ruddock: I am most grateful to my right Church street, while Borthwick wharf and the adjacent hon. Friend for that intervention. I will now slow down, Payne’s wharf are both vacant. as I know that he is desperate to be able to speak in the Let me turn to the issues specific to the Deptford site debate. chosen by Thames Water. There are two primary schools Overlying all the concerns that I have outlined is an close to the proposed site: St Joseph’s Catholic primary aspect of Deptford that has been completely neglected. school is opposite the site, and the new Tidemill academy Planning consents have already been given for the is close by. As I say, the proposed works will take at least construction of thousands of new homes in the immediate four and a half years, which represents the majority vicinity of the Deptford Church street site. Work is period of primary school attendance. That area of already under way and the nearby Convoys site, which Deptford appears in the top 10% of areas in the country has a footfall—this is quite amazing—equivalent to the in the index of deprivation, making primary education whole of the south bank, is expected to be redeveloped of paramount importance. Both indoor and outdoor over precisely the same period as the Thames tunnel. learning will be impacted by noise and air pollution. This is a prescription for chaos. It is particularly unfortunate Fire evacuation for St Joseph’s during the period is of because Deptford has enjoyed a prolonged period of concern. The school requires an off-site space near the regeneration led by Lewisham council, financially school for 260-plus children and 25-plus staff, and they underpinned by the Labour Government and supported need to reach it quickly and safely. The site currently by a number of private sector partnerships. used is the green space that Thames Water proposes Lewisham is the 12th most densely populated local using for its shaft and associated construction works. authority in the UK, and my constituency the most No impact assessment on the school and its fire regulations dense of all. As a consequence, every small piece of has been offered. open space is greatly valued and provides essential Sited alongside the green is the grade-I listed St Paul’s green lungs for the city. The Crossfield amenity green church, the single most significant listed building in will be made unavailable and inaccessible for at least Lewisham. The proposed shaft and associated building four years in an area of very limited open space. works directly affect the setting and structure of the Lewisham borough’s core strategy emphasises the church, the boundary wall to the church cemetery, importance of improving connectivity throughout the which is listed in its own right, and the grade-II listed area for pedestrians and cyclists. The recently completed railway viaduct to the south. It is therefore not links project from Deptford high street through to surprising that English Heritage has expressed a preference Margaret McMillan park, as well as the work on Giffin for the alternative site to the Deptford Church street square, the Deptford lounge, Tidemill academy and site, as there would then be less impact on heritage Wavelengths, demonstrate the implementation of the assets in our area. council’s strategic aspirations for the area. The effects of the disruption to traffic patterns would The completion of the Thames tunnel site works is be numerous, and the disruption would cause congestion not expected until 2021, resulting in an unacceptable and danger. The proposal involves closing the two delay to the delivery of the council’s strategic objectives northbound lanes of Deptford Church street; the two for links to and connections through the area. Furthermore, southbound lanes would provide one lane in each direction. Deptford high street is classified as a site of nature Again, no detailed traffic modelling has been provided. conservation importance in the adopted unitary There could even be emergency vehicle access restrictions development plan. If the borough were the local planning associated with the traffic management measures along authority for this application, it would either refuse the proposed construction vehicle routes. Bus lanes in permission that had adverse impacts on nature conservation both north and southbound directions would be temporarily or, if development were considered essential, it would suspended, yet the width of the southbound carriageway require an environmental appraisal that included methods is insufficient to accommodate heavy goods vehicles of mitigation and proposals for compensation. 379 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 380 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill I appreciate the need for the Thames tunnel, so I However, the Metropolitan Board of Works said that would not be objecting to this site if I thought this was a the cost of Bazalgette’s plans was too high, so he case of simple nimbyism. It is not. There is so much at proposed and installed the combined sewer overflow stake that we have to make the loudest and clearest system. This ensured that when it rained the accumulation objections on the grounds that I have outlined. Already of rain water that enters the sewerage system can be 1,300 people, in an area where there is not a great deal released through the CSOs, taking the sewage with it. of activism, have signed a petition opposing the use of London’s current population is estimated to be about 8 the Crossfields amenity green. I support the measures in million and rising. In a typical year, 39 million tonnes of the Bill that will enable Thames Water to undertake a untreated sewage is discharged into the River Thames much needed improvement on behalf of all Londoners, with as little as 2 mm of rainfall. To put that in but I| believe that it can provide the necessary shafts perspective, that is enough to fill the Royal Albert hall elsewhere with less damage than that which would 450 times, and the discharges occur about once a week result in my constituency. My plea to Thames Water is, on average. in the words of the local campaign, “Don’t dump on The emerging effluent contains not only sewage Deptford.” and storm water, but biochemical oxygen demand material, pathogens, nutrients, heavy metals, pesticides, oils and 5.54 pm suspended solids. In short, London’s Victorian sewers Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I rise to support can no longer cope, which is why London desperately the Bill, as I have much experience of both South West needs the super-sewer, or Thames tunnel. The CSOs Water and Thames Water, However, I must say that my discharge into the river not only chemical and biological perceptions of the two companies differ widely. They contaminants, but nearly 10,000 tonnes of litter every appear to operate at different ends of the spectrum: year, including toilet paper, wipes, sanitary towels, condoms, South West Water levies one of the highest surcharges cotton buds and other flushable items. I know that the in the UK and has the lowest number of consumers, hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) while Thames Water levies one of the lowest surcharges accompanied Thames Water on a trip, as I did, where and has the highest number of consumers. he saw for himself the problems at the pumping station at Fulham. The hidden dangers of the effluent that goes The Bill is about a decade overdue. The shadow into the river include pathogens, viruses and bacteria, Secretary of State said that many of the problems are such as E. coli, hepatitis A and faecal streptococci. the result of privatisation, but that is an erroneous assertion. If we look at the value of the water companies Due to the ebb and flow of the tide, it can take up to before privatisation, we will see that Anglian Water was three months for sewage that has entered the uppermost worth £357 million, North West Water £458 million, reaches of the Thames to reach the sea. That is a Severn Trent £476 million and Thames Water £558 million, problem in itself, but the persistence of infection is a but South West Water was worth a lowly £106 million. real problem. Around 50% of typhoid bacteria are In general terms, at the time of privatisation South destroyed in an aquatic environment in one to three West Water had the lowest amount of assets per days, and 90% is destroyed in three to 13 days, but the property, and since privatisation the company has invested most resistant can remain for weeks and retain their about £2 billion, in 2007 prices, to bring its infrastructure power of infection, which has an impact on not only the to the same level as that elsewhere in England and people who use the river, but those who live around it. Wales. At privatisation, South West Water’s bills were about Mr Slaughter: The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful £50 higher than the national average. This disparity was case, and he is right to say that I visited a pumping exacerbated by the impact of the bathing water directive station, although it was the Hammersmith one. When and, of course, the urban waste water treatment directive. most people think about pumping stations, they think As the Public Accounts Committee and the National that some form of treatment is going on there. On the Audit Office recognised in 1992, privatisation of the contrary: a structure that is probably half the size of water industry was an unprecedented task, with 10 utility this Chamber fills up with raw sewage, which is then monopolies floated on the stock market at the same pumped straight into the Thames, and that happens on time after years of restricted investment and an obligation at least a weekly basis. Does he agree that it is highly then to spend more than £24 billion in a decade in order irresponsible to say that we should clean up the Thames to catch up. Any perception of failure now can be so that it is so clean that salmon can thrive and prosper attributed only to the lack of governmental interest in in it? We need to clean it up because it is an essential the industry 10 years after privatisation and, in the case health matter. of South West Water, in the 19 years its consumers have had to wait for the Walker review. Mr Offord: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his If greater interest had been shown, one industry intervention. I am probably aware of whom he is citing, practice that is causing problems across the country and, having had conversations with the former leader of would have been identified: the use of combined sewer Hammersmith and Fulham council, I can assure the overflows. CSOs are intended to act as release valves at hon. Gentleman that we do not agree on this subject, times of higher operational use. When Sir Joseph Bazalgette though we may agree on many others. first planned the sewers for London, he gave every The super-sewer in London is consequently essential person a sewage production allowance and decided the to ensure that the UK complies with European diameter of pipe needed to remove it. He then doubled environmental standards and, most particularly, the that diameter. We should all be grateful that he did so; urban waste water treatment directive. All British taxpayers had he not, the smaller size of the sewers would have are at risk of having to fund hefty EU fines if the UK is ensured that they overflowed in the 1960s. confirmed to be in breach of that directive. 381 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 382 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Mr Offord] it is cheaper to pay them than to ensure that their infrastructure performs within the terms of their licences. It is not just London and Thames Water that need to Water companies are labelled repeat offenders, as year take action, however. All water companies have a contract on year they are fined for impacting the environment with their consumers not only to provide them with with unlicensed discharges of untreated sewage. Only clean water, but to remove their sewage and to treat it last Friday South West Water was ordered to pay almost responsibly, but that is not happening. The water quality £40,000 in fines and costs for allowing sewage to escape of Britain’s beaches is being jeopardised by thousands into the River Dart near Galmpton in south Devon, of unregulated overflow pipes that dump raw sewage after effluent entered the river last May and caused the into coastal waters and rivers. It has been estimated that closure of a shellfishery. 3,500 pipes operated by water companies pump unlimited The 1976 EU bathing water directive is not designed amounts of raw sewage into more than 80 rivers and to identify effectively the impacts on the environment along sections of our coastline. That comprises more from combined sewer overflows. It is useful in giving an than 60 operated by South West Water, including pipes indication of water quality over the bathing water season, on the River Torridge, which flows to a popular Devon but all that it really tells us is the water quality during beach; more than 250 outlets operated by Yorkshire 20 short periods over 140 days, and only in the most Water, including sewage flowing into the North sea; popular bathing zones, not at the points where water is sewage overflows on the River Don, where thousands most likely to be polluted, such as the mouth of a river of fish were killed by sewage pollution in 2006; and an or the nearest CSO on the beach. overflow, operated by United Utilities near Manchester, The revised bathing water directive, which will come which was blamed for polluting a fishery in 2005. into force in 2015, will mean four years’ consecutive data being examined and water being measured against Dan Rogerson: The hon. Gentleman is making a tougher standards. However, there will still be 20 samples, powerful case for the need to be mindful at all times of and many pollution incidents will fall between the gaps. how outdated sewerage systems can cause problems. I remain concerned that many CSOs are deemed not to People may be more accepting of occasional discharges have an impact on bathing waters, and so are licensed during periods of very high rainfall, but he knows north for even more frequent discharges—the licences do not Cornwall well, and if he considers the area of Trevone contain a set figure. he may wish to look again at South West Water’s record The CSOs also discharge when a predetermined volume on delivering its promises, because in that area discharges of water is being passed forward within the sewerage have been occurring several times a month, and the system. When that volume is reached, the CSO can be company has yet to take action. I have raised that issue employed to release pressure from the system, resulting with South West Water, and we hope to address it soon, in raw sewage on beaches and in rivers more than but he is absolutely right that there is a problem not just 100 times a year, equal to the frequency in London. here in London, but throughout the country. Those CSO discharges can also have an impact on the Mr Speaker: Order. There is a worrying pattern coastal environment. Our over-reliance on CSOs has developing whereby the erudition of interventions is resulted in the European Commission taking the UK to equalled only by their length. court over a breach of the EU urban waste water directive of 1991. The case has been heard, but we are Mr Offord: I take it from that only that you would still waiting for the judgment. like me to talk even longer, Mr Speaker. I support the Thames tunnel, the super-sewer or I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman, however, whatever we want to call it, for the environmental and and having had some experience as a lifeguard in Cornwall economic benefits that it will achieve in London. The I have seen at first hand the problems that South West project is expected to add £70 to £80 to the average Water has caused. I intend to go on to address the Thames Water waste water charge, which has been points that he raises. among the lowest in the country, and I recognise the problems that that would cause some people. Even with From my experience in Cornwall and elsewhere, I am the Thames tunnel, however, Thames Water’s bill would aware also that there are 500 regulated sewer overflows rise only to the national average. The additional resources on Britain’s beaches that, as the hon. Gentleman rightly from the Government should allay some of the fears of says, are supposed to operate only after heavy rain. the people whom colleagues have mentioned. However, swimmers and surfers often complain, even to I also welcome the reduction for South West Water me, that the overflows operate more regularly to relieve customers, but according to one estimate highlighted by pressure on sewerage systems that are said to be “at the company itself, the cost of removing or further bursting point” by the various water companies. reducing the impact of CSOs in its region’s network Despite a £10 billion investment programme by water would be about £500 million, which could add as much companies since privatisation, about one in four beaches as £40 a year to the average bill in the region. If the still fails to qualify for the European Union’s top category. Government propose to subsidise each South West The investment has ensured that 96% now meet the Water customer by £50, the company should by its own lower mandatory standard, but this still means that a evidence be able to afford to undertake that work from swimmer, surfer or scuba diver has a 14% chance of its current resources. I should like that to happen, contracting a bacterial or viral infection, and that is particularly given the introduction of the new bathing simply not acceptable. water directive. Until that occurs, it is anathema for Every year the water companies factor into their any Government to claim that we have bathing water operating costs the insignificant fines, ranging from a of a high standard in this country. My experience, and couple of thousand pounds to tens of thousands of that of other Members, has been that that is simply not pounds, that can be levied on them, and they know that the case. 383 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 384 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill 6.7 pm Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that despite the fact that Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): I wholeheartedly the £50 cut will be impacted by high inflationary rises, associate myself with the final comments of the hon. those rises apply across the country, so one cannot say Member for Hendon (Mr Offord). that we are worse off in the south-west, because we are I welcome the Bill, and I thank the Minister and the still better off by that £50? Secretary of State for introducing it. As my hon. Friend the shadow Secretary of State said, it goes a small way Mr Bradshaw: That is absolutely right. I am afraid towards righting the terrible injustice that was done as a that water customers across the country are paying the result of how the water industry was privatised, particularly price for this Government losing control of inflation. in the south-west, in 1989. The reason we are all facing these massive increases in the current financial year and the next is that inflation is As other Members have said, other people deserve out of control. We in the south-west are suffering like credit, too. I thank the excellent public servant Anna everybody else. However welcome the £50 cut is, it will Walker, whose year-long review in 2008-09 made already have been wiped out by the time we get it. recommendations, some of which the Government are People will not notice it because their bills will be no now implementing. I also thank my right hon. Friend lower than they were before as a result of the two years the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who was of increases that they will suffer this year and the next. the Secretary of State who commissioned the Walker We must stop the culture of annual increases, and I review. hope that the Government will do that when they bring I also thank somebody else who has been named by a forward their full water Bill. The hon. Member for number of Members today—my colleague the former St Ives is absolutely right about this. We always talk Member for Plymouth Sutton, Linda Gilroy. Linda about the water industry as though it is the same as the worked tirelessly as a leading member of the all-party gas industry, the electricity industry and the other privatised water group during her 13 years in this place. She was utilities, but it is not—it is a monopoly private provider. like a terrier with a bone on the issue—I remember Customers in the south-west cannot choose where they seeing two Prime Ministers and several other Ministers get their water from. Admittedly there is also a problem scurrying away from her whenever they saw her approaching in the energy industry, but people do have a limited them in the Division Lobby, because they knew she choice of provider for their gas and electricity. would pin them against the wall to talk about water The other reason it is completely wrong to put water prices. She brought not just great persistence but huge in the same category as the other privatised utilities is expertise to the subject, and she helped to change that water is plentiful. We live in a wet country; it rains. minds. It is no exaggeration to say that without Linda If it stops raining, we might as well all pack up go Gilroy’s contribution, the Walker review would never home, but that is not going to happen—we hope. Water have happened. We might have got there in the end, but is not like gas, electricity or oil, where the resources are we would have been much less far down the road. It is finite. The Government must challenge the assumption gratifying that Members in all parts of the House have that water prices should always rise. Given the advances paid tribute to her, because she is no longer in this place in modern technology, there are strong arguments for to smile on her legacy. water bills coming down rather than going up. I ask the I would be grateful if the Minister could answer a Minister to look carefully at the structure of the industry couple of questions. What will happen at the end of the and the strength of the regulator. For the reasons that next comprehensive spending review period? Will further the hon. Member for St Ives and I have mentioned, legislation be needed if the £50 rebate is to be extended there is a very good argument for the water regulator beyond the next CSR period; and if so, how will the being much stronger than the regulators of the other legislative mechanism be put in place to do that? Given privatised utilities. that when the Labour Government considered this issue The Prime Minister is fond of making speeches about in the past there was a problem with European state aid crony capitalism; well, he can show us his mettle by rules, is he satisfied that there will not be such a problem dealing with an industry that is a private monopoly with what the Government are doing? where customers have no choice. The industry has its hands round their necks, they cannot go anywhere else, Why are the Government implementing only part of they are fed up, and they do not understand the inevitability the Walker review? Will the Minister assure us that the of year-on-year increases. other bits will be implemented when the Government Of course we have to improve our outdated infrastructure, bring an all-singing, all-dancing water Bill to this House? and a lot of work has been done on that. However, I am a little disappointed that we will apparently not get when I hear industry spokespeople and Ministers saying such a Bill in the forthcoming Queen’s Speech, but I that we are about to face a terrible drought, worse than hope that we will during this Parliament. That is absolutely that in 1976, I wonder why the industry and the Government vital because, as the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew have not looked more carefully at the idea of water George) said very clearly and convincingly, there is a trading, which I think has been mentioned by a Government desperate need for root-and-branch reform of the water Member. Why do we not pipe water from the Severn industry. catchment area, where it is plentiful, to the Thames The £50 cut in bills in the south-west is extremely catchment area? That could be done quite cheaply. It is welcome, but our bills will still be the highest in the not hugely expensive or terrible for climate change, as country, and the cut will already have been wiped out by the Secretary of State said in her opening remarks. A the time we get it owing to the increases in the current similar thing could be done across the country. My right and forthcoming financial years, with a 5.7% increase in hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras April. (Frank Dobson) mentioned reservoir capacity. 385 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 386 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Mr Bradshaw] Anne Marie Morris: Like the hon. Gentleman, we are all looking at how we can deal with the affordability There is no reason why in this country, which has a issue. However, the Bill is intended purely as an academic cool, temperate climate with plenty of rain, we should piece of legislation to allow the £50 reduction, not to pay such high prices for our water. We should not address the whole gamut of water issues, which is accept inexorable rises year on year, particularly when substantial. I welcome the £50 reduction and think that families are feeling the pinch. I share the admiration of the 710,000 householders who will benefit from it will the hon. Member for St Ives for the current management be absolutely delighted. of South West Water. However, in the increases that I will raise some technical points, because this is a that company and the rest of the industry have asked technical Bill. I will not talk about the big picture of for in this financial year and the next, they have not water issues. I will be grateful if the Minister considers shown the sensitivity that they might have shown to the the points that I raise in his winding-up speech, whether state of household finances. that be today or on another occasion. My concern is that the £50 is aimed at the domestic user as opposed to Richard Benyon: I urge the right hon. Gentleman to the non-domestic, commercial user. I understand why read our water White Paper, which addressed many of the Government are trying to be careful with their the points that he is making. It was long overdue in resources, but I emphasise that including the non-domestic, doing so. It is important that water companies talk to commercial user would mean an extra £3.5 million, each other about bulk trading, moving water and the which falls within the £40 million ceiling. I recognise the connectivity between water company areas. That is precisely Government’s concerns, but there is a potential issue what the White Paper sought to achieve. It addressed a with domestic households that pay through commercial long-standing problem. intermediaries. For example, park homes cover a significant number Mr Bradshaw: I look forward to the recommendations of residents throughout the south-west, and the rates in the White Paper being implemented in legislation. I are effectively levied against the park home owner. I am hope that that will happen in the next Session and that therefore concerned that those living on park home we will not have to wait another year or more, but there estates will not receive the benefit. There is a similar is talk of the legislative process being clogged up by problem with sheltered housing. I am worried that House of Lords reform. We need this legislation as subsection (7) to proposed new section 154A in clause 1 soon as possible to address the problem once and does not fully address that. I would be grateful if the for all. Minister considered that because I cannot believe that I will end my remarks on this point. The Bill is a anybody feels that those individuals should be excluded welcome development, as far as it goes. Of course the from the benefit. £50 cut is welcome, regardless of the fact that it will be My second technical concern relates to the debate wiped out by the big increases in water bills this year about WaterSure and support for those who cannot and next. However, it is only a temporary solution to afford to pay their water bills. I will not go into the the problem in the south-west and nationally. Although debate because it is something for the water Bill. My it will assuage the public anger in the south-west over concern is technical because, if the Government decide the cost of water bills temporarily, if those bill continue to support the Consumer Council for Water’s view that to go up every year, this bit of help will be but a distant WaterSure should be nationally funded, I am not sure memory in a few years’ time. I address my final remark whether subsection (2) to proposed new section 154A as much to those on the Opposition Front Bench as to would enable them to take that position. I would therefore the Government. Whoever is in power has to grasp this be grateful if that were reviewed. nettle once and for all and reform this industry properly, so that it operates for the benefit of the consumer and Otherwise, I think I will make history by making the the customer. shortest speech of the afternoon and simply say, “Well done Government—huge benefit! £40 million should not be sniffed at.” 6.17 pm

Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I 6.21 pm congratulate the Government, because they have done an extremely fine job. Frankly, I find the comments Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): It is a about the £50 reduction being cheeseparing a bit sad. great irony for us in the south-west, surrounded by I was interested to hear the comments of the right water as we are, that we have the highest water bills in hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) and I agreed the country. I represent a coastal city that sits on three with him on many points. He said that he is concerned rivers and the injustice of the expense of water bills in that the £50 will be wiped out by price rises. As I said, Plymouth aggravates almost everyone I know in my there will be price rises across the country. Is he saying constituency and the wider region. that the Opposition would have provided more money Water bills in the south-west are, on average, 43% to give a greater subsidy? If so, how would they have higher than in the rest of the country and we have funded that? I will leave him to ponder that. 200,000 households under water stress—paying, as we have heard several times, more than 3% of their Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): The hon. income towards their bills. A Government Member Lady asked about Opposition policy. We support the said that there were more people in his region to £50 payments in the south-west, but are looking for which that applies, and that is true, but we have the further action on water affordability across the piece, highest percentage of people in that position. Those which this Bill does not provide. people are pensioners and families with high and 387 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 388 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill essential water needs. They are often supported through plans are inaccurate in terms of the connection of WaterSure, but only about a third of those eligible get mains sewers to properties. It is wrong that the default that help. position is to assume that people are connected and People have been paying through the nose for a basic charge them. As a result, the onus is on the bill payer or commodity. I accept that it needs to be valued because, house owner to understand exactly where their water with climate change and other pressures, it could become goes and whether they have a direct connection into the more scarce. If we do not prepare well for the decades mains sewer. That adds further unfairness to the system, and century ahead how we manage the future costs of and I ask the Minister to address it at some point. the necessary work and, from my perspective, prevent a I wholly support the comments of the hon. Member repeat of the mistakes that were made when water was for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) on park home privatised and the south-west paid a disproportionately owners. Many people in Glenholt park in the north of high price, we will all fail water bill payers. The Bill my constituency are anxious about how the proposals clearly tries to set out some ground rules in that regard. will play out for them, and I am afraid that not all park The high cost of water is not a new problem, but it home owners are responsible or willing to be generous has dominated concerns in Plymouth throughout my with the people on their sites. time in Parliament and for many years before that. It A number of related issues, including the adoption of has posed problems for Governments of all political private sewers, will impact on the cost of water nationally, persuasions and it will clearly continue to exercise the and they need to be understood with regard to the Bill. I current Minister in the months and years ahead. note that the explanatory notes state that the Bill gives As we have heard, for many years, I and other south-west the Secretary of State Members have campaigned to address the higher bills “a power to give financial assistance” left us by privatisation. The detailed Walker review did, with regard to the to Anna Walker’s credit, much of the groundwork for “construction of…sewerage infrastructure”. the announcements that followed, including the Chancellor’s I assume that that is partly designed to reassure Thames announcement of the £50 refund for households in the Water bill payers on the linked new ring main sewer. south-west, and ultimately led to the Bill. However, civic schemes are not mentioned in the Bill, so Through parliamentary questions, Adjournment debates when the Minister winds up, will he tell the House and the work of the all-party parliamentary water whether assistance could be applied for by a water group, which was initially chaired by Linda Gilroy, who company that finds it has a much more extensive private has rightly been lauded in the Chamber today, then by sewer commitment than it believed it had inherited? the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), The Minister will know—we have written to each other and then by the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew on the subject—that we are unclear what the burden is George), Members of all parties have sought to keep likely to be for some water companies in that respect. the issue high on the agenda. The Government need to introduce measures to tackle At a time of soaring utility bills, high inflation and long-term water affordability, not just in the south-west stagnant wages, action on water bills is welcome. However, but nationally, and they should consider the feasibility it needs to be meaningful and lasting to make water bills of a national social tariff. We have heard that from more affordable in the long term. The continuing upward other hon. Members and I hope the Government consider pressure on the south-west, despite the refund, will the proposal. mean that many families dip below the poverty line. It is Anna Walker, who dedicated a whole chapter to the not acceptable to increase the number of children and injustice felt and experienced in the south-west, set out pensioners in poverty. Although I welcome any help a number of main challenges nationally, including the that the Government are able to give—it would be cost that other bill payers incur as a result of bad churlish not to welcome the £50—it is small relief from debt—it is around £15 per person, as we have heard. ever-rising bills. This is not the end of the debate and She looked at the implications of metering and considered the problem extends beyond the south-west. how future costs should be met, acknowledging some of That said, all of us who live in and represent the issues that we have debated. She was also clear that constituencies in the south-west—I should declare an it was appropriate for water customers to pay for interest as a South West Water bill payer—have a duty improvements to the quality of water and the disposal to ask whether the bill will effect meaningful and lasting of sewage, because they ultimately benefit from such changes. Sadly, my conclusion is that it will not. There is improvements, but she was also clear that customers a strong view that this gain will be temporary, and that should be fully consulted before the Government agree even with the changes, water bills in the south-west will to such changes to avoid the accusation of imposing a be back at their current levels within two or three years, stealth tax. I believe that the proposals of my hon. for the reasons I have set out—wages are stagnant and Friend the Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), the inflation is high. shadow Secretary of State, on parliamentary oversight Will the Minister look at the issue of water companies of specific schemes, should be debated seriously in overcharging for surface water drainage, which affects Committee on the Floor of the House. water bill payers specifically in the south-west, but also The Bill will be a waste of time if, within a short more generally? Very many households do not connect period, the problem of affordability comes back on to their waste water into the sewerage system and water the agenda, not just in the south-west but nationally, companies do not have complete data on where those and if customers feel that they have not had input into properties are—I have been out in my patch trying to the reasons for the higher bills that they pay. The identify them. In Plymouth, no council data exist for Government will do them no favours if they simply the 1950s from the plans, and it is believed that later appease us in the south-west who have kicked off over 389 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 390 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Alison Seabeck] There is always a danger, however, that infrastructure projects start with one price tag but end up with another. the years and made a lot of noise about our bills, and When the Thames tunnel scheme to deal with sewage in they will miss an opportunity not only to consider water the Thames—the system built in the Victorian era by affordability in a more strategic and inclusive way but Bazalgette is no longer fit for purpose—was first proposed, obviously to tackle the historical injustice in our region. the general cost was said to be between £1 billion and Whatever the new regime, basic standards must apply, £2 billion, but everybody now accepts that, at 2011 but that is not entirely clear from the Bill, and it needs prices, the Thames tunnel would cost £4.1 billion or the appropriate regulation, which also is not entirely more. That excludes financing costs, as the notes to the clear. As has been said, the House must be able to Bill explain, but includes £900 million for risk and consider every proposal on its merits, but that is not in optimism bias. So this is a big project that will cost a lot the Bill either. So more work needs to be done. Given of money. the expertise and experience of Members across the In 2006, the water regulator warned potential Chamber, I hope for further and more detailed debate buyers of Thames Water that it would not allow them in the short Committee stage because it would be of to saddle the company with high debt levels and pass benefit to the Bill. financial risk on to the customers. I want to concentrate my remarks on the financing, and the financing 6.30 pm structure, but I also want to place on the record my Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) position on the project. I have supported the general (LD): I am grateful for the opportunity to take part in position that we need to deal with the infractions on air the debate and to follow the hon. Member for Plymouth, quality and water quality in London that have brought Moor View (Alison Seabeck), who rightly concentrated us before the European authorities. That is what we are on matters in the south-west. facing in relation to water and air quality; therefore, we need to act. May I say, as I have said in other policy areas, that as I have started from the proposition that the Thames a London MP I fully support the Government’s proposal, tunnel, as proposed by Thames Water, is the right derived from a Liberal Democrat election commitment, answer. When it was endorsed by the last Government it to assist people in the south-west? Over the years, I have had my support, but I am increasingly troubled that it campaigned with colleagues to improve water quality in looks as if it may not be the answer that everybody once the south-west and to clean up sewage on its beaches—I thought it was. Therefore, when I recently made a full and my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew submission as part of the consultation process, I asked—I George) helped with the Surfers Against Sewage campaign. am also about to write to the Secretary of State to ask I am also clear that there is a collective responsibility for this question, after this debate and after a meeting on Members across the UK to legislate to end disparities in Monday—whether, at least between now and the point water prices. As a London MP, therefore, I do not resent in the normal timetable when Thames Water might be our legislating to assist colleagues in a beautiful part of in a position to make an application, there could be a the country where bills have been disproportionate final independent review of the viability of the current compared with ability to pay and the justice of the case. project. Sheryll Murray: Does the right hon. Gentleman agree Those driving the project have an interest—Thames that, from a south-west perspective, this is truly a cross-party Water has an interest, and there are others with an initiative? I cannot think of another example where interest. It is important not just to have a battle between every major political party has campaigned on the those with an interest in favour and local authorities water issue. such as mine—[Interruption]—and that of the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), who is about Simon Hughes: I absolutely accept that. I was not to intervene on me—which, because of the effect on disputing the cross-party nature of the campaign. I was their constituents, have become opposed. At the moment trying to support my hon. Friend and colleagues across we have a dialogue of two different interested groups, the House by saying that those of us who do not come and I think we need to get some people involved who do from the south-west have supported them too. not have a vested interest. There are people in the European Commission who do not have a vested interest, A pledge made by the Liberal Democrats bas been there are people in international agencies on the environment honoured, and a pledge made by the coalition Government who do not have a vested interest, and there are also has also been honoured—generally, then, this is a good people who do not have a price interest. Before they proposal. commit their support to a project that is rapidly increasing The second part of the Bill is the one that preoccupies in cost—I will say why that is a danger for the Government, those of us with London constituencies and constituencies as well as for everybody else—I think the Government served by Thames Water. It is the largest water company would be wise to commit themselves to one last review. I in the country and covers a significant number of colleagues hope I can persuade colleagues over the next few weeks with constituencies in the Thames valley as well as in that this can be done in a way that is compatible with the capital. That relates to clause 2. I support the the timetable in general terms. general proposal that the Government should be able to assist major infrastructure projects, and I am aware that Mr Slaughter: The right hon. Gentleman took part in last year and the year before, the Chancellor rightly a Westminster Hall debate last September—less than identified a set of infrastructure projects around the six months ago—at which I think I was also present, country to get people back into work. Good, long-term, when he said: viable infrastructure projects are a good thing, and we “The Thames tunnel is the best direction.”—[Official Report, should support them. 14 September 2011; Vol. 532, c. 316WH.] 391 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 392 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill Is he saying that he has changed his mind since then? If Water plc, Thames Water Holdings plc, Kemble Water he is saying that he has reservations about cost or Ltd and Kemble Water Holdings Ltd, and intermediate individual sites, I would say that I probably share them—if holding companies. The list goes right up to non-Macquarie I get a chance to speak, I will probably address them. Is investors and then to Macquarie, and shows the purchase he, however, saying that he has now changed his mind of part of the company by the Chinese state finance about the project as a whole? organisation and others. That shows an organisation that does not do transparent finance. We therefore need Simon Hughes: The answer is that there is a proposal certain safeguards to be put in place to protect any on the table for what is called “the full tunnel”. I am not taxpayer investment and Government support. as certain now that what is called the full tunnel is the The company also has considerable activity in the right solution. There is already the tunnel being built in Cayman Islands. I am not sure whether that is the most the east—that is well under way—and there is an argument appropriate way for a major utility company to spend for a smaller tunnel and other measures. I just think we its money. The tax arrangements of Thames Water, need to satisfy ourselves before we go for the full tunnel having been bought by Kemble, have involved setting that that is the right solution. There are also site issues, up a subsidiary financing branch in the Cayman Islands, of course, but I regard those as secondary, although in based at Ugland House, which has 18,856 other businesses my constituency, as in the hon. Gentleman’s, they are registered at it. There is a real question of transparency hugely important to our constituents, not least with a for Thames Water, and the Government need to have a major site being planned in the middle of my constituency public debate on it. We need to look at this matter in affecting thousands of people, thousands of homes and Committee and on Report to determine exactly how the two or three major schools. financing arrangements are arrived at. There is at the Mr Slaughter rose— moment no proposal from Thames Water as to how it will raise the £4.1 billion to finance the project, and I Simon Hughes: I will give way one last time. am concerned that the cost might ultimately be borne by the Thames Water ratepayer, which might not provide Mr Slaughter: The right hon. Gentleman is being the best value for money for our constituents who pay very generous. When he says “not the full tunnel”, I their bills. should point out that the context of his remarks last Mr Blaiklock concluded: September was his objection to the wholly inadequate “There is no doubt that the introduction of Private Equity-type Selborne report, which proposes a partial tunnel—a investment into the privatised UK public services has sharpened disastrous tunnel—in west London. I hope he is not up the financial management of such enterprises. However, such saying that he supports that. Private Equity investment has also (a) introduced a lack of transparency in the control, governance Simon Hughes: Rather than have a long dialogue, I and, therefore, the accounts of such utilities. Some utilities, such will let the hon. Gentleman have a copy of my submission as Thames Water, are effectively owned and controlled offshore, to Thames Water later, so he can read my full views. possibly by companies with limited liability and domiciled in tax However, let me summarise, as I did in my submission: havens. Corporate information is, not surprisingly, hard to come “I am now clear that, since the end of the first round of by for such Private Equity investments! Hence, in the event of consultations in 2011, the arguments for a review of the full operational failure by such utilities…it is quite possible that the tunnel proposal and possible alternatives have substantially increased. controlling company and its directors cannot be called to account, There has been a growing amount of opposition against the full notwithstanding OFWAT’s Conditions P and F licensing tunnel from my constituents and other constituents in greater requirements… London.” (b) increased the leverage and, thereby, decreased the financial I go on to say that we should therefore give that argument strength of such utilities, at the expense of customers and the greater weight. security of service; and Let me turn to the substance of the financial issues, (c) introduced corporate uncertainty. The investment horizon for Private Equity is traditionally three to five years, which is which are dealt with in this part of the Bill. Back in short for public service utilities, which require long-term capital 2007, a memorandum was submitted to the Treasury and financial stability. The only balancing feature has been the Committee by a Mr Martin Blaiklock—consultant, increased intervention, as direct investors, by pension funds and infrastructure and energy project finance—on the subject life insurance companies—as principals, not clients—albeit some of Thames Water specifically, but also on equity-type are offshore owned and controlled. Such investors have longer investment generally. He said: time horizons and are ideal investors for such public service utilities.” “Over the last 12 months I have be keeping a particularly close watch on the activities of Thames Water, not least because I am a The other activity that is certainly questionable is the Thames Water customer, but also because it is one example,—and way in which Thames Water has managed its affairs in a good example,—of Private Equity involvement with public recent years. Extremely high dividend payments have services. The case of Thames is significant as it is the UK’s largest been made over the past years, representing a direct privatised water utility, serving the Capital and 13 million customers, and also a monopoly service provider...Thames Water Utilities transfer of income and capital out of Thames Water to Limited…is the utility licensed by OFWAT. However, Thames private investors. At the financial year end in 2011, Water Utilities Limited is 5 or 6 times removed from the controlling Thames Water made £225.2 million in profits, but it investor group…of whom a number are based offshore in distributed £271.4 million in dividends. This high dividend Luxemburg…Is this the ‘transparent’ corporate structure expected policy is a recent development, but it is not limited to of a UK monopoly public service provider?” last year. In 2010, the unadjusted common dividend I cannot put this on the record, but there is a helpful payout ratio, in percentage terms, was 141.5%—that is, graph in that memorandum to the Treasury Committee nearly half as much again was paid out. The figure for showing Thames Water Utilities Ltd at the bottom. 2009 was 126.7%—a quarter as much paid out again as Above it are lots of holding companies, including Thames was made in profits; and in 2008, 61.3% was paid out. 393 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 394 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill [Simon Hughes] What of domestic supplies and customers? About 370,000 people in the north-east spend more than 3% of That contrasts with Anglian Water’s dividend ratio of their income on water, which is why I am glad that the 81.%, Southern Water’s 58.7% and South East Water’s Opposition will introduce a new clause to enable the 48.4%. The policy of paying higher returns to investors introduction of national minimum standards for water started immediately after the company was purchased company social tariffs. Such tariffs will ensure that by the consortium behind Kemble Holdings in 2007. financial assistance is provided to those most in need The company paid out £535 million in dividends in across the country—not just to those in the south-west, 2007, and £233 million in 2008. about whom we have heard so much. It is worth noting All this has happened while the company has vastly that the south-west has almost exactly the same number increased its debt position. In the financial report of of households paying a disproportionately large part of 2008, the change in the amount of debt held by Thames their income for water supplies. Water was more than £1.5 billion. Ofwat warned the Some Members have talked about water meters, and I bidding companies to keep a good debt ratio, advising would encourage all individuals and families to explore that 45% would be appropriate. The ratio is now at 80%. using them. My personal saving in my home came to We—Parliament—and the Government need to ask about 60%, so people should look at this option to solve why Thames Water has increased its debt holding by so some of their financial issues. However, I recognise that much when it is known that it has an extremely large that is more difficult for families than for a couple living capital project coming up, which will need a substantial in a larger house. amount of borrowing. There has been a lot of consensus around the place My question to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of today, but it saddens me to say that the Government are State is whether the Government have investigated whether taking a similar approach to that being taken to the big Thames Water would have been able to make a greater six energy companies. The Government seem incapable contribution to any scheme from its own funds if it had of taking on the powerful vested interests of the large not spent the last few years borrowing money in order water companies and are set to miss the opportunity to to pay itself. Both the financial policy and the tax make a real difference with a more comprehensive Bill arrangements of Thames Water seem to me to be that would put pressure on companies to deliver for our appropriate for us to debate. communities the services they deserve at a reasonable and fair cost. From April, water bills will rise by an My conclusion is that we might need to insert conditions average of 5.7%, which is a huge amount, given that for into the Bill regarding any financial arrangements whereby many ordinary families pay freezes and job losses are the Government underwrite the borrowing by Thames the name of the game. Such a hands-off approach from Water, making it clear that they should be transparent, the Government is truly shameful and it is even more ethical and accountable so that Thames Water users, appalling when people are already contending with a those of us who represent people in the Thames Water 20% increase in energy bills over the past year. area and everybody else in the country can understand More important than that, however, is the following that there has been some pretty strange organisational question: did we really hand over or sell our water assets finance going on in the last five years. We must make to allow companies to make huge profits, borrow on the sure that the objectives do not feather the nests of the back of those assets to pay dividends and still fail to equity investors rather than benefit Thames Water users, provide enough water for people in the south to water so we must ensure that we have the right financial their gardens if they choose to do so? I am particularly vehicles if we are to go ahead with infrastructure projects concerned and surprised about the proposals in clause 1 like this one. We will have plenty of opportunity to to allow the Secretary of State to provide financial debate the project itself on other occasions, but I hope assistance—taxpayers’ money—at the stroke of a pen that the Secretary of State will be sensitive, as I know or if she the Treasury is sensitive, to these real concerns about how Thames Water runs its financial affairs. “considers it desirable to do so” to a privately owned water or sewerage company that 6.47 pm may be failing in its basic duty to deliver an adequate water supply all year round in parts of our country. I do Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I would not know how much cash the Secretary of State will like to talk about the Bill’s impact on people in north-east have to splash around, but providing a blank cheque at England and to outline some of the responsibilities that taxpayers’ expense and at a whim to any water company water companies, which make billions of pounds of she likes, whenever she likes, is absolutely not what is profit between them, might need to be compelled to needed to ensure that ordinary people get a fair deal on fulfil, although I acknowledge that some do the right their water. thing—part of the time, at least. That issue is all the more pressing given that huge I would also like to take the opportunity to invite areas of the south and east of England are suffering those who want a consistent and high-quality water their worst drought in almost 35 years. One recently supply to come to the north-east—industrialists, proposed solution is shown in the decision by a utility manufacturers, green revolution companies, call centres, company to draw up plans for a £2.6 billion pipeline to breweries and individual people would all be made send water from the north to the drought-hit south. welcome in the region. My message to allcomers is United Utilities has revealed plans for the pipeline, but I clear: “You need water; we’ve got it”—and I would must question whether it is really the answer. It would encourage anyone needing water for their businesses to be incredibly expensive to transport water from north get in touch with Tees Valley Unlimited, and we will to south, and I know who will end up meeting the cost. work with them to develop their business without fear The Environment Agency last looked at the idea of a of ever having to do without their water supply. pipeline in 2006 and estimated that it would cost up to 395 Water Industry (Financial 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Water Industry (Financial 396 Assistance) Bill Assistance) Bill eight times more than developing the existing infrastructure. York, who lose only 10% in leakage, or perhaps, one Water is heavy—1 cubic metre of water, which is what day, to equal Singapore, where the leakage rate is about 5%. one person uses a week on average, weighs a full metric I have already personally dismissed the idea of the tonne—so the energy required for the construction, water-rich north sending our supply south, but water development and operation of large-scale water transfer companies in the south could help themselves, each systems also adds further to carbon emissions, which other and consumers. Last December, the Environment lead to climate change. Agency told Ministers that the myriad small water The north-east of England has significant infrastructure companies in south-east England could save £500 million for industrial and domestic water supply. One of Europe’s by 2035 if they shared supplies. Instead, the companies largest man-made lakes, Kielder water in Northumberland, were planning to saddle customers with a bill of £760 was created to supply water to the industry of north-east billion for unnecessary new reservoirs. What will the England, much of it on Teesside, in and around my Government do about that? Will they introduce legislation constituency. Sadly, the growth of some of the industries, to deal with some of those matters? such as steel, that are heavily water intensive did not Will the Government make any moves to force the materialise. As we have seen, the north-east economy private water companies to take the right action, stop has been rebalanced in recent times, with different the leaks, share supplies around the country where industries and a wider range of jobs. That was done necessary and deliver for consumers? I do not think the under the previous Government and, of course, the Bill demonstrates that the Government have a long-term work was led by the now defunct One North East vision for affordable water supplies or the industry as a regional development agency. whole and I only hope Ministers will take action to sort In recent years, Kielder water has come into its own, it out. My message tonight is: “If you want water and with underground springs ensuring that it always remains you’re an industrialist, come to the north-east.” at a high level, regardless of the prevailing climate. That means that while the south of England is often forced to 6.57 pm implement drought strategies and hosepipe bans, north-east England enjoys plentiful water supplies. People in the Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) north-east have, of course, had to pay the price for an (Con): It is a delight and a pleasure to participate in this abundant water supply, which is now managed by debate, particularly as I come from a city that has Northumbrian Water. Unlike other companies, it has Burrator reservoir, which was built by Sir Francis Drake pegged its price rise to inflation this year. Over the and is in the Torridge and West Devon constituency. I years, however, consumers in the region have paid higher also want to thank hon. Members for the tone of the bills to finance this reservoir, and given such an abundance debate. It has most certainly been a cross-party debate of water there are surely no excuses for a hike in prices and we have been able to support what is being proposed. when there is no need for investment in reservoir I thank the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, infrastructure. Northumbrian Water does do the right Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member thing; it does invest in works and it works hard for its for Newbury (Richard Benyon), who came to Plymouth communities. We all like the idea of reduced bills, but earlier this week to support south-west Devon and to we also need investment and the constant water supply visit Plymouth Marine Laboratory, a premier marine that we have in the north-east. Indeed, with such an scientific research organisation. He was able to talk abundance of water, instead of transferring large amounts about how the cost on top of the water rates is £15 for of water to the overcrowded and drought-ridden south, those people, because of bad debts. would it not make both environmental and economic I am aware that the issue of water rates has been very sense for industry to move to the north-east? I have important, particularly in my constituency. I pay tribute, already issued the invitation: “Come north, we have all oddly enough, to my predecessor, who was the Labour the water anyone needs.” Member of Parliament for Plymouth, Sutton and If we are going to go down the north-south route, I campaigned very effectively along with the hon. Member want to know what the benefits will be for people in for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) to ensure north-east England. They have paid for the investment—will that this message was heard. I have become aware in the they get a dividend through reduced bills when their course of today’s debate that we have all worked together water is moved elsewhere, if that ever happens? to achieve this, but that it is this Government who have delivered the ability to ensure the £50 provision. We On a different matter, is it not an absolute disgrace have all worked together as Members of Parliament that in England and Wales leakage rates, at about 25%, and, more importantly, we have made sure that 90% of are higher than a decade ago? Some private companies, the Members of Parliament in the south-west have been now exporting their profits to their shareholders overseas, sending a clear message, too. are failing in their duty to create 21st century services for our people. Water companies might have done well There has been an enormous amount of regeneration on investment, but they have done so at the expense of in my constituency, but in 1997 St Peter’s ward was one consumers. of the poorest wards in the whole country. People in the ward have been challenged to ensure that they can meet What action will the Secretary of State take, for their water bills. The £50 reduction is welcome, and I example, to cut Thames Water’s obscene leakage rates? thank my hon. Friends for the hard work that they have The company loses 30% of the water it puts into the done, but the 4% increase— mains—200 litres a day for every customer—yet it has posted profits, in what could be considered a bad year, 7pm of £208.5 million. That money could go a long way towards investing in improvements and helping the The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 9(3)). company to move towards the record of Paris and New Debate to be resumed tomorrow. 397 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Business without Debate 398

Business without Debate EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing SUPPLY AND APPROPRIATION Order No. 119(11)), (ANTICIPATION AND ADJUSTMENTS) BILL Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing SAFETY OF OFFSHORE OIL AND GAS ACTIVITIES Order No. 56), That the Bill be now read a Second time. That this House takes note of European Union Document Question agreed to. No. 16175/11 and Addenda 1 to 4, relating to a Draft Regulation Bill accordingly read a Second time. on the safety of offshore oil and gas prospection, exploration and production activities; supports the Government’s view that the Question put forthwith, That the Bill be now read the UK has a proven, robust offshore environmental and safety Third time. regime; and further supports the Government’s intention to negotiate Question agreed to. a legal instrument which ensures that high standards of health and safety and high levels of protection for the environment are Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed. maintained across Europe in respect of oil and gas operations, and that any new proposals do not negatively impact upon the DELEGATED LEGISLATION present UK regime.—(Mr Dunne.) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing The Deputy Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Order No. 118(6)), Question being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday 7 March (Standing Order No. 41A). SOCIAL SECURITY That the draft Social Security (Contributions) (Limits and Thresholds) (Amendment) Regulations 2012, which were laid BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (5 MARCH) before this House on 30 January, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.) Question agreed to. Ordered, That at the sitting on Monday 5 March paragraph (2) of Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments) shall apply to Order No. 118(6)), the motions in the name of Edward Miliband as if the day were That the draft Social Security (Contributions) (Re-rating) an Opposition Day.—(Mr Heath.) Order 2012, which was laid before this House on 30 January, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.) Question agreed to. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (6 MARCH) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Ordered, Order No. 118(6)), That, at the sitting on Tuesday 6 March, notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 20 (Time for taking private EDUCATION business), the Private Business set down by the Chairman of That the draft Schools (Specification and Disposal of Articles) Ways and Means shall be entered upon (whether before, at or Regulations 2012, which were laid before this House on 19 January, after 7.00 pm), and may then be proceeded with, though opposed, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.) for three hours after which the Speaker shall interrupt the business.— Question agreed to. (Mr Heath.) 399 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Private Hire and Hackney Carriage 400 Vehicles Private Hire and Hackney Carriage that amounts to 2% of drivers being assaulted each Vehicles year. Very few jobs have such a high rate of unprovoked violence. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House I have spoken with the National Private Hire Association, do now adjourn.—(Mr Dunne.) the Licensed Private Hire Care Association, and Private Hire News, and I am indebted to them for their engagement and assistance with my preparation for the debate. They 7.2 pm all, without exception, talked openly and depressingly Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): I was prompted to about the widespread nature of violence towards drivers, call this debate to discuss the safety of private hire and and said, even more worryingly, that the level of violence taxi drivers and their passengers as a result of recent continues to increase. events in my constituency—the death of a constituent The National Private Hire Association sent me news who was a private hire driver and an assault on another reports of attacks on drivers with knives; guns, fake and driver. More broadly, I want to encourage the Minister real; baseball bats; a hammer; a fire extinguisher; and to make it his priority to transform the perception, and even a wheelie bin. Drivers have been set on fire and run too often the reality, that private hire and taxi drivers over by their own vehicles. I have not found any nationally are given second-class status in our public transport collated statistics on assaults and murders of private system when it comes to their safety. I also wish to hire and hackney carriage drivers. Perhaps the Minister highlight to the Minister some of the impediments can tell me whether those statistics are collated. If not, to the safety of passengers that have been highlighted to that in itself indicates that the issue of safety is not me by Am I Safe?, a developer of applications to help receiving the attention that it should. The GMB union passengers to verify at the point of hire that a vehicle is kept a record of attacks between April 2007 and February legitimately licensed. Those impediments arise from the 2008; it listed that nine drivers were killed and 45 suffered complex regulatory structures, differing rules, and serious physical assaults while doing their job. The inconsistent interpretation of access to information rights Department for Transport conducted research on personal that arise from the various licensing authorities. security issues in 2008 and found that, on average, three drivers a year are unlawfully killed—evidence from Private hire and taxi drivers are a vital part of our across the country that our private hire and taxi drivers public transport system, and when it comes to their are at risk. I would argue that we have not made physical safety and the safety of their property, they sufficient progress in mitigating those risks. deserve to be afforded the same protection as our bus drivers, airline staff and railway employees, but they are My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South not. In many towns such as Bedford, if a person has (Mr Binley) raised the issue in a debate on 24 June 2009. been out for the evening with their friends, private hire That debate was interesting because of a number of vehicles and taxis are often the only answer to the points that he raised, but also because he noted the question, “Who will take me home tonight?”, yet drivers extent of the private hire and taxi sector. He said that routinely have to deal with people who can be abusive, “we are talking about an industry that employs 340,000 people…The and may be under the influence of alcohol, drugs or industry makes about 700 million taxi journeys a year, which both. A journey may end with someone vomiting in the means an average of roughly 11 journeys for each member of the population. About £3 billion is spent on fares each year. We are vehicle or running off without paying. Private hire and therefore talking about a sizeable industry that plays a major role taxi drivers run those risks—not routinely, of course, in our public transportation.”—[Official Report, 24 June 2009; but much more frequently than many of the public Vol. 494, c. 912.] would appreciate. The Minister responding that day, the right hon. Let me turn to recent incidents in Bedford. As Adam Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), was alert to the Thompson of the Bedfordshire on Sunday newspaper issue of driver safety and made some useful suggestions, reported, but underlying that debate and much of the industry “Fayaz Alhaq…who runs AGS Cars in St Peter’s Street, commentary is a sort of shrug-of-the-shoulders view Bedford, says his employees are ‘running a gauntlet’ every that the issue is just too tough to tackle, and in some weekend and have a job ‘as dangerous as the police’. His sense that it is the cost of doing business. What strikes words come after 61-year-old grandfather Mehar Dhariwal me is not the fair and sometimes compelling explanations of…Kempston…died…having been assaulted the week before of the complexities of implementing changes that will while working.” tackle these widespread instances of assault, but that Mr Thompson’s report went on: given these horrific attacks at such high incidence rates for so many years in a single sector of the economy, we “Only last month Bedfordshire on Sunday reported how 24/7 private hire driver Turbez Ahmed…was attacked…by a gang of have allowed the complexities to thwart our action for eight who wouldn’t pay their fare up front.” so long. Efforts by Bedfordshire police to bring to justice the In the search for remedies, I turn first to the perception assailants in those two horrific and sad cases go on. I do of the industry. Department for Transport research in not want to obscure those efforts by talking further 2008 found that about those instances, but although they are specific “a strong belief held by many drivers, controllers and others cases, sadly they are not isolated examples. representing the trade is that the root cause of many of the problems is a lack of respect from the public for taxi and private A freedom of information request to Bedfordshire hire drivers.” police showed that there had been 93 assaults in the That lack of respect can make the transition to abuse or preceding 12 months on private hire and taxi drivers, to violence a much easier step to take. It is a sad fact including 35 cases of aggravated bodily harm and also that this lack of respect too often descends into 30 common assaults. My local authority estimates that racial abuse. 401 Private Hire and Hackney Carriage 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Private Hire and Hackney Carriage 402 Vehicles Vehicles [Richard Fuller] I ask the Minister to consider the possibility of the more widespread use of proceeds of crime moneys for I understand that a similar issue confronted the door this purpose. security sector—I am not sure whether we can call them I mentioned the lack of statistics on crime. I always bouncers these days. The violence against bouncers was think that if we do not track something, we will find it seen as part of that job, but a focused effort on changing hard to make improvements. Therefore, will the Minister that perception, together with other initiatives, has had work with the Home Office to track more formally the a positive impact, reducing the incidence of attacks on statistics on criminal attacks on private hire drivers, door security staff at our pubs and clubs. What, in including aggravated racial abuse? Will he also comment practical terms, has the Department for Transport done on whether he will seek opinions from the private hire since 2008 to tackle the public perception of the industry, and taxi trade as input to the Prime Minister’s alcohol and what steps would the Minister consider undertaking? strategy? Unfortunately, so many of these incidents of Perhaps it would be appropriate for the Transport crime correlate with alcohol and drug misuse. Committee to assist in this effort. Also in 2008 under the previous Government, the Jonathan Lord (Woking) (Con): I commend the work Sentencing Guidelines Council included taxi and private of Woking street angels in my constituency, and similar hire drivers in that category of workers where longer street angels across the country, and also pay tribute to sentences would result from a crime. What assessment the licensed taxi drivers who have an arrangement with has the Department made of the impact of those changes the street angels to take drunk and incapacitated passengers in sentencing guidelines? Does the Minister believe that safely home, unless they are potentially violent, in which further action to strengthen the guidelines is warranted? case the police are called. The drivers sometimes do that The national associations and the GMB raised with at no cost to the passengers. Is that something that my me the issue of the introduction of CCTV and/or driver hon. Friend would like to see in more parts of the shields. I will be interested to hear the Minister’s thoughts country? on those, as I understand that there are differing opinions Richard Fuller: My hon. Friend makes a good point. about the desirability of each of those options, but he There are many excellent initiatives in towns across the will be aware of the initiatives by some local authorities country. They have recognised the problem of growing to investigate or roll out CCTV solutions. They have levels of alcohol abuse and the late night trade generally. been considered for Brighton, Braintree, Oxford, We see organisations such as street angels working with Manchester and other locations. He will be equally the police, local authorities and taxi companies to ensure aware of the very high cost of some of these solutions. that towns do not suffer as a result of people staying out It is unfair to expect drivers to bear the full cost of the too long and that they get home safely. That relates to equipment, particularly if the market price continues to the point the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) be hundreds of pounds. made about the importance of local initiatives being given a national profile so that we can make changes all Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): There has recently the way across. been a change to legislation in Northern Ireland to My hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Jonathan increase safety for taxi drivers and passengers and to Lord) enables me to segue over to talk about the safety regulate the sector. That resulted from attacks on both of passengers. It is a sad reflection on the taxi industry parties. Does the hon. Gentleman think that where that, despite the significant efforts made by local authorities, there is good practice somewhere in the United which he mentioned, any cursory review of local newspapers Kingdom—in this case, in Northern Ireland—that could will readily identify cases of assault—frequently sexual be used as an example to produce better regulation for assault—of passengers by taxi drivers. That is the flipside taxi drivers on the mainland? of the issue of vulnerability. There is the vulnerability of drivers who are on their own, perhaps with cash, and Richard Fuller: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent the vulnerability of people being driven home on their point, which highlights the fact that so many authorities own. In 2002, the Metropolitan police estimated that in are responsible for licensing, and the complexity of London alone 214 women had been raped or sexually various initiatives taking place. I understand that the assaulted in such circumstances in the preceding year. Law Commission will examine certain aspects of regulation, The figure fell to 93 by 2009 but has recently increased. but he makes an excellent point about the need for best There is a range of initiatives that national Government practice to be applied across the country. I shall be and local authorities are taking to reduce risks to passengers. interested to hear the Minister’s response and his thoughts I will not dwell on those in too much detail, but a on the balance between localism and trying to tackle a particular issue I want to highlight for the Minister is national concern. the limitations and availability of publicly held data My view is that it would be unfair to expect drivers to that might be useful in reducing offences against passengers. bear the cost of CCTV, particularly if the price of the There are currently 384 licensing authorities in the UK, equipment remains in the hundreds of pounds. I do not each of which will have its own policies on the collection expect public money to be made available in these of data on drivers, such as their Criminal Records straitened times, but I do know that in 2006 Bedford Bureau checks, and on their vehicles, and each authority borough council worked with Bedfordshire police to will have its own rules about sharing that information. use some of the proceeds of crime moneys to implement As we know, information is power, and that power CCTV in a pilot scheme at low or no cost to drivers. In ought to be available to passengers, should they wish to Leicester, funds from the tackling knives action programme have it, when they hire a cab. It would provide reassurance have been used. In other local authorities, advertising to know that the vehicle and the driver are properly on cabs has been enabled to fund the cost of CCTV. licensed. 403 Private Hire and Hackney Carriage 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Private Hire and Hackney Carriage 404 Vehicles Vehicles Am I safe? is a service that currently operates in more include any relevant local police information, in addition than 50 towns and covers 10% of the UK population, to a record of previous criminal convictions, cautions but it reports that local authority information gathering and warnings, but those checks have, in law, been restricted is patchy and that the timeliness of updates varies. I do to drivers who work regularly with vulnerable adults or not know whether that application is the best, but I with children. believe that it makes sense to make this regulated I agree that licensing authorities should be able to see information more accessible and more accurate. Therefore, enhanced criminal record checks in respect of all taxi I ask the Minister for his views on the value of a and private hire vehicle driver licence applicants, regardless national registration database of private hire drivers of the type of work that they intend to undertake once and licensed vehicles and, more broadly, his comments licensed, and I have been working closely with colleagues on the need for rigour in data collection and CRB in the Home Office and, in particular, with my hon. checks. Friend the Minister for Equalities, who announced in Often, in towns and villages throughout our country, January that all taxi and private hire vehicle drivers will the only public transport option for getting back home be entitled to enhanced criminal record checks. The after a night out is a cab—a private hire vehicle or necessary legislative change has now been made by the hackney carriage. It is time for the Government, Home Office, and today I can confirm that it will come notwithstanding the Law Commission’s review of into force on 26 March. legislation, to come forward with some initiatives that The Minister for Equalities announced also that licensing will make our private hire and taxi sectors a respected authorities will be entitled to check whether any applicant part of our transport system—a status that they and is barred from working with children or with vulnerable we, the public, deserve. adults under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006. That is a good example of the Government listening to the experts and acting accordingly. Licensing officers 7.20 pm have told us that they need to be able to see enhanced The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport criminal record checks in order to make a proper assessment (Norman Baker): I thank my hon. Friend the Member of applicants’ suitability, and we are responding by for Bedford (Richard Fuller) for raising this important providing them with the tools that they need to carry subject of taxi and private hire vehicle safety, and for out that vital task. securing the time to allow us to debate the issues. This There is also a growing need for information about debate comes at a time when there have been a number licensed vehicles, a point that my hon. Friend helpfully of very serious alleged assaults on and by taxi drivers, made in his lucid comments. That information enables and that is a matter of great concern. the public to verify immediately whether a given vehicle Licensing authorities will do their best, I am sure, but is licensed, and it helps with the “traceability” trail. the unfortunate fact remains that taxis and private hire There is a difficulty when it involves personal information vehicles can never be perfectly safe. They are often hired relating to individuals, but that is a matter for local from isolated places at night; drivers carry cash; and, authorities to weigh up against their wider obligations self-evidently, taking a taxi or private hire vehicle generally and considerations, including, under the Data Protection involves getting into a car with a stranger. That combination Act 1998, the protection of personal information. of factors makes drivers and passengers particularly I am happy to say, however, that I am aware of vulnerable to violence, and it is important that we take Transport for London’s vehicle-checker facility, which what steps we can to minimise the risks. enables the public to input a vehicle registration plate and discover whether the vehicle is actually licensed as a In looking at safety, we normally focus on the passenger’s private hire vehicle. That is a helpful facility, and I for perspective, but my hon. Friend quite rightly refers to one cannot see why licensing authorities should hold the dangers that exist for drivers as well. A report from back on providing such information. As I was aware the Department in 2007 found that on average three that my hon. Friend might raise that matter, I spoke to a drivers a year are killed unlawfully. Each crime is of leading national licensing organisation just yesterday course unacceptable, but it is worth putting into context and said that I thought it ought to respond positively to the fact that journeys in taxis and private hire vehicles requests for vehicle licensing information, if not proactively account for just over 1% of all journeys per person per put it on its website. It agreed, and said that it would year, and that is 700 million journeys or 3.5 billion miles disseminate that message to its member authorities. per year. That, of course, is of no comfort to those who are subject to the unwarranted and unprovoked attacks I move on to the hugely important issue of drivers’ to which my hon. Friend referred. personal safety. I was very sorry to learn of the incidents in my hon. Friend’s constituency. I extend my sympathies Let me look at how we might make the experience and those of the Government to those who have been safer for the passenger and driver, starting with the subject to serious assaults there and elsewhere, and passenger. First, local authorities, as licensing authorities, perhaps particularly to the family of the 61-year-old are obliged to ensure that only those who are “fit and grandfather to whom he referred. I was particularly proper”—the term in law—should be licensed as taxi or horrified by my hon. Friend’s description of the range private hire vehicle drivers, and it falls to individual of weapons that are sometimes used against drivers councils to ensure that that is the case. who are simply going about their lawful business. It is The Criminal Records Bureau check is a central intolerable that they should be subject to attacks such element of that assessment process. A number of as he described. The lack of respect to which he referred organisations have raised with me their concerns that is clearly an important factor to be taken into account. some taxi drivers have only a standard criminal record I turn to the questions that my hon. Friend asked. I check because the law does not allow for all of them to agree with him that there is a problem of perception. have enhanced checks. Enhanced criminal record checks We will examine the parallel position of doormen, to 405 Private Hire and Hackney Carriage 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Private Hire and Hackney Carriage 406 Vehicles Vehicles [Norman Baker] reduction while exercising all their duties. The Department’s best practice guidance suggests that the installation and which he referred, to see whether there are lessons that use of appropriate safety measures is best left to the might be sensibly transferred across. judgment of the owners and drivers themselves, but we My hon. Friend asked about statistics. Because licensing would encourage licensing authorities to look is largely a local function—it has been since 1847 or sympathetically on, or actively encourage, measures before—there is not the depth of national statistics that that protect drivers. he or I might like. However, we will talk to the statisticians As my hon. Friend will be aware, the Protection of to see what is available, and I will write to him to let him Freedoms Bill is being considered in another place. The know. We will also consider whether the statistics that Bill includes provisions further to regulate CCTV and are available in different places might be accumulated to other surveillance camera systems. Those provisions give us a better picture of what is happening. Of course, include the introduction of a statutory surveillance local authorities may hold information, and I will ask camera systems code of practice and the appointment my officials to talk to the national body of licensing of a surveillance camera commissioner to encourage officers to see whether it has information that might compliance, provide advice and information, and monitor throw a light on the matter and what else might usefully the code’s effectiveness. I will maintain an interest in the be done. If there is information such as he mentioned, I development of the code to ensure that CCTV associated will happily share it with the Prime Minister’s team that with public transport, including taxis, is addressed is examining the alcohol strategy and with the Home appropriately. Office more generally in respect of the crime statistics Drivers can use a range of other security measures to that it collects. I certainly agree that it might be useful to improve their personal safety, including conflict avoidance track criminal attacks on private hire vehicle and taxi training. The Department has issued guidance for taxi drivers more formally. and PHV drivers about how best to protect themselves, I am familiar with the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002, and that is on the Department’s website. because I was on the Bill Committee when it was taken Clearly, enforcement is a hot topic. I commend Transport through Parliament. It was a useful Act. I am not aware for London’s Safer Travel at Night campaign, which that it has been applied directly in cases such as we are aims to reduce the number of cab-related sexual offences discussing, but I am happy to ensure that my colleagues by raising awareness of the dangers of using unbooked at the Home Office are made aware of my hon. Friend’s minicabs, also known as touts, and illegal cabs. It also comments and concerns on that matter and others involves targeted police and enforcement activity to affecting them. I will write to the relevant Minister to identify, disrupt and deter illegal cab activity. Transport make him or her aware of the contents of today’s debate for London has, through a sustained effort, made great and my hon. Friend’s comments, including those relating strides in reducing cab-related sexual offences and instances to the Act. of touting, although I accept that there remains an My hon. Friend mentioned CCTV. Any decision to outstanding concern relating to pedicabs, which are install it in cabs or elsewhere must of course involve outwith the PHV and taxi licensing system. clarity about the purpose of doing so. It is important to More generally, I am pleased that, as my hon. Friend consider carefully its potential contribution towards said, the Law Commission has agreed to undertake a achieving that purpose, the costs and whether the intrusion comprehensive review of the law governing taxis and into individual privacy is appropriate and proportionate. PHVs. The fact that taxis outside London are licensed CCTV in taxis and private hire vehicles is by its nature under an Act of 1847, and those inside London under intrusive, putting law-abiding people under surveillance an Act dating from 1869, speaks volumes. The Law and recording their movements, although it might be Commission is a body dedicated to, and expert in, argued that individuals accept that by flagging down a unravelling complex and archaic legislation and replacing taxi or booking a private hire vehicle. it with modern, simplified legislation, and I hope that it CCTV can be effective in both preventing and detecting will take on board issues relating to safety as part of its crime and antisocial behaviour, and owners and drivers work. The commission embarked on the review in July 2011, of vehicles understandably often want to install security it will be consulting in the spring, and it will provide us measures to protect the driver. However, there is a with a report and draft Bill in November 2013. balance to be struck, not least given the Data Protection I hope that that is helpful in taking forward the Act’s provisions on the processing of personal data. genuine and proper concerns that my hon. Friend has Nevertheless, the personal security of taxi and private raised. hire vehicle drivers and staff clearly needs to be considered Question put and agreed to. as well. The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 requires local 7.31 pm authorities and others to consider crime and disorder House adjourned. 73WH 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 74WH

John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): On that Westminster Hall point, will the hon. Lady give way?

Fiona Bruce: I will, but I repeat the question that I Wednesday 29 February 2012 asked earlier.

John Healey: Will the hon. Lady not accept that the [ALBERT OWEN in the Chair] facts show that where a trade union is involved with an employer, fewer days are lost through illness and injury and there are fewer employment tribunal cases and that Trade Union Funding there are, therefore, cost savings to the human resources Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting function and the organisation, which are clearly benefits be now adjourned.—(Bill Wiggin.) to the employer? If that is the case, is it not right to accept that the employer should bear some of the cost of the work that union representatives do for their work 9.30 am colleagues and for their employer and their organisation? Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Owen, and a privilege Fiona Bruce: We are saying that the cost is wholly to introduce this debate. In doing so, may I, as someone disproportionate. Millions of pounds a year of taxpayers’ who comes from a northern mill town, where my money are being used to fund this activity. I have said grandmother started weaving in the cotton mill as a that much of the activity is worth while, but much of it young girl and lost much of her education as a result, veers towards being, if not is, political. During the past acknowledge the historic role that trade unions have 13 years of the— played in our country throughout the past century in improving and defending workers’ rights? They are John Healey: Will the hon. Lady give way? worthy of our respect. I acknowledge too the important role that they still play today as a valuable part of our Fiona Bruce: No. [Interruption.] May I please give civic society in supporting and advocating workers’ my speech, Mr Owen? [Interruption.] rights and representation. The debate is not about criticising the work to which Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. I call Fiona Bruce. I have referred, but about the promotion of transparency, accountability and fairness in the way in which such Fiona Bruce: Thank you, Mr Owen. During the 13 years work is fulfilled—things that I hope we would all agree of the Labour Government, the Government were funded it is right to promote in public and civic life. It is about to the tune of £10 million a year by the unions in ensuring that the right balance is found between effective political work. We think that that is wrong. representation of trade union members and value for money for the taxpayer. Many of us believe that, at the Several hon. Members rose— moment, the balance disproportionately disadvantages the taxpayer. Fiona Bruce: I shall continue, if I may, because I have hardly embarked on my speech and I know that many Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): On that other hon. Members wish to contribute to the debate. point, will the hon. Lady give way? I have acknowledged the good work that trade unions Fiona Bruce: I will give way and I am happy to take do. My concerns about union funding and financial interventions, but perhaps, in the interests of transparency, support stem from my time as a councillor in Warrington. the hon. Gentleman will first say which trade union he In 2006, when Labour lost control of the council and a is a member of and how much money that union has joint Conservative and Liberal administration took over, given to his constituency Labour party in the past three I was allocated a portfolio with the title “Value for years. Money”, later augmented to the finance portfolio as a whole. One action that I undertook was to review all the Mr Sutcliffe: You would not allow me to do that, property assets of the council to see where efficiency Mr Owen, on the basis that interventions must be brief, savings could be made and where, at a time of increasing but I will write to the hon. Lady with all the information pressure on our services, better value for money could that she has requested, because I am proud to be a be delivered for our council tax payers. I am talking member of a number of trade unions. In the calculation about money being allocated to front-line services. We that she has made in relation to transparency and the analysed every building and piece of land that the balance being wrong, how much weight has she put on council owned—that had never been done before—and the amount of work that unions do to help employers drew up plans to ensure that their use and value was in to have good industrial relations? the best interests of residents. The use of some buildings was increased. For some buildings, joint use was the Fiona Bruce: I have already recognised the positive way forward. Rents were reviewed where appropriate. work that trade unions do. We are simply saying that it Some properties were repaired. Others were released for is unfair that taxpayers should have to shoulder the sale, so that the funds on disposal could be utilised burden of the cost of that work to the degree that they more effectively for the benefit of residents. do, particularly when so many of those taxpayers and To my surprise, I discovered that one of the authority’s council tax payers have no connection with the work of most prestigious properties, part of a wing of the town those unions. hall itself—undoubtedly the most prestigious listed building 75WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 76WH

[Fiona Bruce] people’s money responsibly and doing all that they can to maximise its use, so that as much as possible can go in the town, in the prime commercial letting area—was to the front line, for those most in need. I am talking occupied rent free, and with services free, by local union about stewarding people’s money responsibly and ensuring representatives, at considerable cost to local council tax transparency, accountability and fairness. payers. I do not want to pre-empt what others will say, but I do want to draw attention to the excellent contribution Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): Will the hon. Lady my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase made give way on that point? in his Adjournment debate on 26 October 2011, when he gave many clear examples and staggering figures. He Fiona Bruce: No, I shall continue with my speech, if I drew the attention of the House to the issue and to the may. In the interests of transparency, which I mentioned need for reform based on the principle that the activities earlier, I would have liked to obtain the definitive figures that people undertake on behalf of trade unions should for that cost, but I was never able to do so. I did, on a be funded by those trade unions and not by the taxpayer. number of occasions, ask that use of the asset be Why should taxpayers pay for that work? reviewed, but I could never get council officers even to consider reviewing the use of that asset in the same way People pay council tax to have their bins emptied and as the use of every other property asset in the town was their streets cleaned. Councils across the country are being reviewed, while all the time local community making every effort to keep council tax frozen, and the groups, charities, small business owners and others were Government are making every effort to pay off Labour’s seeing their charges for and use of property reviewed. deficit. At this time, more than ever, it is right that we The fact that property used by trade union representatives ask the questions I have posed. was exempt from that process struck me as simply I applaud Swindon council, which has recently taken unjust. steps to review the issue. It has removed the shared job The value of the use of that asset—prime commercial of two union representatives as part of a £15 million property—when multiplied over many years, must have reduction. Councillors who met to finalise the council’s amounted to thousands of pounds. That money could budget said they should not have to pay their staff to do have been used to keep down the costs of renting local union work in the current economic climate. community halls by youth groups, guides and scouts Colleagues who follow me will have many questions and mum and tots, and for other front-line services in a for the Minister, but I would be grateful if he would give town where many residents are by no means affluent. I us guidance on how town halls up and down the country am sure that few, if any, council tax payers in Warrington can challenge union representatives’ use of facilities knew that their money was being spent in that way, and that would be better utilised for the benefit of the that had they known and had they realised the amounts community. In the light of the excellent contribution involved, they would have been as surprised as I was. It my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase made is interesting to note that if I, as Member of Parliament in his earlier debate, will the Minister also update us on for Congleton, wanted to hold my surgery in the town the progress of Government action to deal with the hall, I would be required to pay a charge. concerns my hon. Friend raised? I had intended to Therefore, when I heard about the Trade Union repeat them, but I will not, because so many other Reform Campaign, which was founded to reform the Members want to speak. laws and funding arrangements relating to trade unions and so to create a more level playing field, I was pleased 9.41 am to support it and become a council member, together with many other hon. Members who are here today and Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab): I am proud will speak after me to raise concerns in addition to the to answer the question from the hon. Member for one that I have highlighted—the use of council facilities. Congleton (Fiona Bruce): I am a member of the GMB In supporting the campaign, I am pleased to note that union, and, yes, it has helped to fund my election we are in good company. My right hon. Friend the campaigns. I hope it will do the same in the future, just Prime Minister himself is backing the campaign and as the businesses the hon. Lady supports are likely to wrote in November—[Interruption.] He wrote in November support her directly or through some other medium. to its chairman, my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock The hon. Lady’s comments emphasised one of the Chase (Mr Burley), to whom I pay tribute for standing major problems in our political system. When a party is up and spearheading this campaign. The Prime Minister elected, it rips up what the previous party did, and we wrote: can see the consequences of that in all sorts of areas. “I am pleased that you have decided to establish the Trade One section of the Tory party—it is much larger than it Union Reform Campaign…as I strongly believe the current level used to be—is focusing particularly on trade union of public subsidy to the trade unions cannot be sustained, either rights. It thinks the only way we will sort out our morally or economically…at a time when across the private and economic and political system is by removing workers’ public sectors people are having to take very difficult decisions in rights to health and safety protection at work because order to save money, it is difficult to justify some people in the such things are all red tape. That is why the Tories have public sector being paid not to do the job they are employed for, but instead to undertake full time trade union activities—much of formed their Trade Union Reform Campaign, in the which should be funded by the unions themselves. We need to same way they formed the TaxPayers Alliance as a front question why the public is paying for so much, and whether this is and a seemingly independent organisation to get over sustainable going forward.” their message and alter the debate on public finances. That is what we are doing today.Hard-working taxpayers, I want to focus a little on how things should be. When particularly in these challenging economic times, deserve we look at our economic competitors, it is clear that we to see Government, at local and national level, stewarding are not at the races. Our manufacturing industry has 77WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 78WH virtually disappeared, although that is the fault of both However, I am worried, and I wonder whether the hon. the Labour and the Conservative parties, and I am not Gentleman agrees in principle with union members laying political blame. However, there are fundamental being paid out of taxpayers’ money. That is the crux of weaknesses in the way we approach industrial relations. the worry many people have. I was a Parliamentary Private Secretary—the lowest of the low—in the Department for Trade and Industry Mr Doran: A whole phalanx of my colleagues will when Labour was elected in 1997, after 18 years out of come in on that issue, but I want to focus on the issue I office. One of the key issues on which we had manifesto have outlined. To answer the hon. Gentleman’s question, commitments and which we wanted to tackle was the however, I see this arrangement as a facility for management. industrial relations system. Rather than taking the approach In my constituency, which does not have a Labour of the hon. Lady and most of her colleagues in the council at the moment, staff are paid to do this work Conservative party, we decided to trust the trade unions because it is a door for management to knock on when and management. We asked the CBI and the TUC to go there is a problem. Whenever there is a difficulty, the away and look at what we proposed in our manifesto two sides can quickly get together, and the people who programme, and then to go beyond it and look at a represent the work force can talk with some authority; range of issues that we felt were a serious problem in they do not have to work at the coal face in another job our industrial relations system. There was not a lot of and then have to be briefed on an issue that has come up confidence that they would come back with a workable somewhere in another department. These things happen programme, but we were quite explicit: we told them to in the private sector as much as in the public sector come back and tell us what they could agree about, because they are good for management—they oil the what they did not agree about, but thought they could wheels. sort out, and what they positively disagreed about. I remember sitting in the office of the Secretary of Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and State, my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby Lesmahagow) (Lab): Does that point not sum up the South (Margaret Beckett), when the TUC and the CBI fundamental flaw in the contributions of the hon. Members came back to report on what they had worked out. We for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) and for Beckenham (Bob were all astonished, because they had gone much further Stewart)? This is not about trade union facilities, but than we had anticipated. Both sides knew the industrial about the time given to fulfil industrial relation duties. landscape and the workplace, and they knew how the The time used by trade union representatives is, in fact, system worked. They came back with a formula that tiny in relation to their own particular work, and the eventually became the Employment Relations Act 1999. vast majority is used to ensure that the workplace works The focus of that Act was not, as the hon. Lady might smoothly. That is where Tory Members are getting this suggest, about Labour buying off its union funders: it very wrong. was a serious attempt to change the industrial landscape. One of the key issues was to try to get the courts out of Mr Doran: My hon. Friend speaks with a lot of industrial relations, and I think we succeeded enormously experience. He has worked with local authorities across in that respect. I am very proud of what we did in that Scotland, and I bow to his knowledge. It is easy to area. count the cost of wages. The Secretary of State for One of the key areas of conflict was recognition. We Communities and Local Government, who has an axe introduced a process that enabled recognition to be to grind, has all the resources to get the figures together; properly worked through in the workplace or with but there is no assessment of the benefit to management. support from ACAS. That meant that we had a rational That is the fundamental weakness in the case. debate, rather than both sides following their first instinct The pendulum is swinging. I have described how we and rushing to the courts to try to force things through. approached industrial relations, and the figures for time Within a few months of the Act—in fact, the process lost at work through strike action in the past 15 years started before it was enacted—we had more than 1,000 show a dramatic improvement, but that graph is likely new workplace agreements. Management decided to sit to change substantially. I am deeply concerned about down with their workplace unions for the first time, and the approach of any Government who think that the they started to enter agreements. There have been virtually only way to resolve problems in the workplace is to no disputes since, although there have been one or two reduce workers’ rights and remove their health and high-profile ones. In the main, however, the whole issue safety rights. That is a particular issue for me. I was a of industrial disputes over recognition has disappeared. very young Member of Parliament when the Piper Sadly, we now have a new Government. Just this Alpha disaster happened. It was a time of light regulation week, I met a group of trade union officials who represent in the offshore oil industry, because the imperative was the trade unions at QinetiQ, where the managing director, to get the oil ashore and recover the taxes that it paid who has no experience of the defence industry or science, the Exchequer. One hundred and sixty-seven men were has decided that recognition will be removed from the killed, and I have spent a lot of my political life still in workplace. That will be an area of conflict, and it is contact with the relatives and survivors. It is not something completely unnecessary. There was no proper consultation I want repeated. I have a simple rule: one man’s red tape with unions: in fact, in that case, unions at the national is another man’s essential safety system. level feel they have been deceived and lied to, and such The Conservative party was not always the way it is comments are not made lightly in an industrial context. now. A week or so ago I read an obituary of Robert Carr, who died recently. Lord Carr had the onerous Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I am totally in responsibility of taking the Industrial Relations Act support of having unions, and it is a statutory right for 1971 through Parliament. That was flawed, and he unions to carry out their business unpaid in work time. made it clear later in life that much of it was not easily 79WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 80WH

[Mr Doran] 9.55 am understood; I think that was how he put it. He had Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): I congratulate my practical experience of manufacturing industry. His hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) family had owned a metal works, which apparently on obtaining the debate. I am a member of Prospect provided metal for the airframes for, I think, the Wellington trade union, and it does not give me any money for bomber, during the war. It was a quite substantial political campaigning, but I am publishing a pamphlet company. After his spell as Secretary of State he said with Demos in the next couple of weeks, on relations that because of his time on the shop floor in his fathers’ between the unions and the Conservative party, and am factory he understood the importance of trade unions. deeply interested in the issue. That breed of Tory—people with practical experience I want to make three points. First, I believe that it is of the workplace—seems to have gone. He understood wrong to lump all trade unions together. Secondly, as the importance of trade union rights and was genuinely the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) said, liberal about them. the Conservative party has a long history of co-operation with unions, on which we should build. Thirdly, we There are more important issues involved. The way should do more to support the moderate majority of we deal with the workplace is extremely important. As I trade union members, most of whom are not political have said, we have virtually lost our manufacturing activists. base. We have the car industry and a few other significant areas, but perhaps we should look at what happens in It is true that some trade unions get subsidies from other countries—particularly Germany. After the war the Government, as do banks. Yet many unions are, we Germany recognised the importance of good relations should acknowledge, capitalist institutions, offering services between the work force and management. It established that are intended directly to replace state provision, a system that German trade unions tell me is almost as such as private health care. The market comparison revered as the NHS. The key thing is that the work force website privatemedicalinsurance.co.uk shows that the has a voice at every level. Labour-affiliated union Unison has recently encouraged its members to join private health care schemes such as I lost my seat in 1992 and at that time—another Medicash. confession for the hon. Member for Congleton—I worked for the trade union movement. I was responsible for There are other examples. In 2001, The Daily Telegraph organising some conferences for what is now a part of reported that 3.5 million trade unionists—more than Unite, but was then the Transport and General Workers half the TUC membership—now have some form of Union. One conference was about the automotive industry, private health cover. That was 10 years ago. Since then and I had the task of asking the head of BMW in the the trade union movement has considerably professionalised UK to speak at the conference. I had a meeting with and strengthened its private health care offer and other him and he asked me what I wanted him to say—an services, such as legal insurance. I suggest to my hon. unusual situation for me; usually it is a case of being Friends that we need to look at the reality of trade told what someone wants to say. I just said, “Be union- unions, not just the rhetoric of extreme militants. friendly.” He said, “I can be very union-friendly. I Unions are still the largest membership associations strongly believe that no major company can now operate in Britain. They are hugely more popular in membership without the strong support of its work force and trade terms than all the political parties combined. unions.” He was a member of the main board of BMW in Germany at the time. James Morris (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con): That philosophy seems totally alien in our political My hon. Friend is making important points. The system. The debates on trade unions that we have had in Conservative party has had a positive relationship with this House—the last one was on a ten-minute rule Bill the trade unions, but is not transparency of funding on facilities for trade union members—are marked by and understanding what trade unions do the most two things: ignorance and anger. There is polarisation important thing? on both sides. That is bad for us, politics and the country. Robert Halfon: Yes, I accept exactly what my hon. Friend says; I am all in favour of transparency. However, TUC membership now stands at 58 unions, representing Albert Owen (in the Chair): Before I call Robert 6.5 million people—more than the population of Scotland. Halfon, I want to make an announcement on time Of those 58 unions, just 15 are affiliated to Labour, limits. Because of the number of hon. Members who leaving 43 that are non-affiliated. In addition, there are want to speak, including those who have given advance huge numbers of small staff associations. My point is notice, I am, with the authority of the Chairman of that those 6.5 million are a complex network of people, Ways and Means, imposing a time limit of four minutes and the vast majority of them will be moderate Britons, on Back-Bench speeches. The rules are exactly as in the in all sectors of the economy, from all walks of life, and House. Each of the first two interventions accepted will not militant activists. stop the clock and give the hon. Member who gives way an extra minute. We do not, as the Chamber does, have I am proud that our party has a long history of the mechanisms that enable hon. Members to know the co-operation with the trade unions, beginning in 1867, time on the clock, so with the assistance of the Clerk we before the Labour party even existed. It was the will ring the bell when there is a minute to go. An Conservative Prime Minister the Earl of Derby who intervention made in the last minute entitles an hon. first sought to legalise trade unions in 1867. He said in Member to added time. the House of Lords at the time that 81WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 82WH

“the voices of Manchester, of Birmingham, of Leeds, and of all I say to the Government and my hon. Friends that, the other important centres of manufacturing industry were despite the rhetoric, let us not walk into the elephant absolutely unheard.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 22 July trap set for us by Len McCluskey, Bob Crow and others. 1867; Vol. 188, c. 1775.] He praised a trade union march in London, insisting to Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. a hostile Liberal Opposition that the process was entirely legal. I say these things not because I am not a proud 10.2 am Conservative: I come from the Thatcherite wing of the Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): It is a pleasure, party, but even Mrs Thatcher was an active trade unionist. Mr Owen, to serve under your chairmanship. In 1950, she was elected president of the Dartford Can we just think about the people that we are branch of one of the first organisations that she ever talking about? They are public servants who represent joined, the Conservative Trade Unionists. One of her millions of public servants, whose only role in life is to first engagements as Leader of the Opposition was to deliver quality services for the people we are fortunate address the CTU. She told them in 1975—it is well to represent. These people are not the enemy within. worth hearing this quotation—that “the law should not only permit, but…it should assist, the trades I agree with what the hon. Member for Harlow unions to carry out their legitimate function of protecting their (Robert Halfon) said about the Tory party’s track record members.” not being anti-union. The Tory party supported Solidarnosc We all remember Mrs Thatcher for the wars against in the early 1980s, but it did not support the shipyard Arthur Scargill and so on, but she was supportive of workers in Sunderland when it destroyed the Sunderland trade union members and grass roots, although she was shipyards. The Tories supported the Union of Democratic against militants. I am a firm Thatcherite on trade Mineworkers, but they did not support it while they union reform. were destroying the British coal industry. The Tories then forgot about them and put them on the dole along Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): To add with the other 200,000 miners who lost their jobs because to my hon. Friend’s comments about Mrs Thatcher, I of the Tories’policies. Only last week the Prime Minister remember that Norman Tebbit was very much a trade had some trade unions into No. 10 to talk about the unionist within the aircraft industry and, indeed, led health reforms. The one thing those three examples strikes. have in common is that the Tories liked those groups as long as they were doing their bidding. When the unions Robert Halfon: My hon. Friend proves my point. In are doing the bidding of their members, somehow they 1979, during the general election, trade union members are no longer friends of the Tory party. held a mass rally at Wembley stadium under the banner I am proud to have been a member of a trade union “Trade unions for a Conservative victory”. That is the for 43 years. I have been at the sharp end. Unlike most kind of future that I hope our Government will aspire people here, I have not just read about this. I was an to. elected lay official for my union, released from work for My conclusion is that we need to support the moderate 15 years by Newcastle city council to represent a majority of trade union members, most of whom are membership of 7,000 and a work force of 16,000. My not political activists. In politics, language is everything. hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven We should not be afraid to support grass-roots trade and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann), who spoke earlier union members, to encourage people to join trade unions about industrial relations, has got it absolutely right: we and—dare I say it?—to have, perhaps, the occasional have lost sight of what industrial relations means. It is beer and sandwich. We often discuss facility time, and, about developing a relationship with people and between yes, we need to crack down where it is abused and say management and the unions. Most of the time is spent that it should not be used for party political activity. avoiding problems. It is about building relationships, so Nevertheless, some facility time is good. A local employer that we can say, “Look, we need to go and see these in my constituency, the bus company Arriva, says that people, because if we do not see them, things will go off facility time is incredibly beneficial. The politically neutral the rails.” First Division Association, which has 20,000 members, There are huge examples. I spent many hours with uses facility time to relocate the families of civil servants home care workers, encouraging them to take redundancies who are serving overseas. While we crack down on the or to take ill health retirement. That was a huge step for abuses, we should recognise that not all facility time is them, but they put their faith in me and that helped my bad. authority in being able to respond to the cuts being Whatever reform is pursued, our focus must be on imposed on them. I did thousands of disciplinaries and what is right for union members. It may be worth grievances. I was involved in appeals, social security returning to the original opt-in position for political appeals and industrial tribunals. If I had not been there levies, which was the status quo until 1945. doing that, those people would have been unrepresented. It is somehow being argued that taxpayers should not Finally, I will quote Richard Balfe, the former Labour be doing this and that the unions should fund it all. If MEP who came over to the Conservatives. He said: the unions fund it all, as the Tory party knows, no “British politics has changed enormously in recent years. Labour union in the world could have sub levels high enough to has become a rich persons’ party and the Conservatives are do that. It would also lose the hands-on experience of reaching out to groups that in the past would not have been natural allies. We do not expect to convert the leadership of the people who were working on the ground and at the coal trade union movement, but we do offer respect for the achievements face—I literally worked at the coal face—who try to of the movement and the possibility of a mutually beneficial make things better for the people they employ and the dialogue.” people they represent. 83WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 84WH

[Mr David Anderson] and campaign meetings, is a vital part of its organising strategy. Its community service group guidance note on Where has this debate come from? We all know that facility time states that this debate has not come from the employers, because I “a key task for you in negotiating a facility time agreement will be work closely with the public sector employers in Gateshead, to get as many activities as possible covered by your paid facility such as the council, the college and the hospital—I see time allowance. In other words, although you’re entitled to unpaid the chief executive on a regular basis—and not one of time off…why not try to get those activities covered by your paid them has said to me, “Let’s get rid of facility time.” We time off?” have some strong, hard relationships. As we sit here That comes back to the point on transparency. today, the unions in Gateshead council are sitting with I want to touch quickly on direct payments. We have the management trying to work out how they make 350 already touched on local authorities and the amount of people redundant with as little damage to the people time for paid equivalents, full-time equivalents and and the service as possible. part-time equivalents and how—I think the hon. Member It would appear that the truth is that the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) said this—that was down for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), who led this debate, was to the local authority. It is worth looking into the extent not strong enough to control her officers, because her to which this is taking place across the country. Some officers have control of whether members have time off. weeks ago, I mentioned Camden council, which seemed If the council and the officers do not agree that the to be giving a lot of resource to securing union facility trade unions have time off, it does not happen. If she time and putting its payment as a priority, while cutting was not strong enough to control her officers, that is a front-line services. That is a major area. fault with her and her administration, not with those Direct payments are another way the public purse who represent the people on the ground. supports trade union activity. The Union Learning We know where this has come from: it has come from Fund costs the taxpayer something like £22 million a the storm-troopers of the TaxPayers Alliance. If we are year and supports the employment of about 170 trade talking about storm-troopers, we all know what Hitler’s union employees. More transparency is definitely required attitude was to trade unions: get them out of the way, in relation to direct payments. lock them up and destroy them. I am sure that no Member would support anything that Hitler or the Mr McCann: Will the hon. Lady give way? people he represented did, but that is the slippery slope that we are on with this debate. Priti Patel: I will not give way, as I have to wrap up quickly. Regarding the political levy, it is worth noting 10.6 am that the membership forms for both the GMB and the Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): The context of this debate Public and Commercial Services Union make no mention is the reform of trade union funding. In the four minutes at all of the fact that their membership fee includes a that I have, I want to touch on the areas of facility time, contribution to a political party’s political funds. That direct payments to unions and the political levy. is another area that requires more transparency. Those who sign up to join those unions should be informed The Minister will be aware that I welcome the current that included in the price, they are signing up to give review of facility time. At a time when public bodies are their money away to a political party. being asked to publish all spending over £500, it is shocking how little information is being made available I hope that the Minister will take these comments on about the tens of millions going to the trade union board and let us know whether the Government can movement in various forms. As part of the Government’s fast-track proposals in the report by Sir Christopher review, I urge the Minister and the Government to Kelly on party political finances to address these matters introduce measures requiring public sector employers and empower union members to decide explicitly whether to publish in full detail the use of facility time in their or not to opt in and pay their political levy, rather than organisation, the amount of time and, importantly for having it taken from them without their knowledge. transparency, its purpose. It is essential, because we need to see why facility time is five times more prevalent 10.10 am in the civil service and three to four times more prevalent in the wider public sector than it is in the private sector. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): That is a stark difference. Thank you, Mr Owen, for calling me to speak. Both the public and private sectors are bound by the It is normal practice to congratulate the hon. Member same laws on facility time and both sectors have to who secures a debate in Westminster Hall. On this grant paid time off for trade union activities, such as occasion I shall resist that temptation, because there is negotiating pay conditions, meeting employers and no doubt whatsoever that this is a politically driven supporting members at disciplinary hearings. Important debate, with the dark hand of the TaxPayers Alliance though those are—I think that we would all agree about behind it—an organisation about which little is known, that—why do trade union members in the public sector including how it is funded, so we know where it is seem to receive so much more paid time off than their coming from. It is also rather interesting that the private sector equivalents? That has to be looked into Conservative MPs in Westminster Hall today are all and is where the point about transparency comes into from the new intake of the party’s MPs, which gives us play. an idea of where the new Conservative party is going. I will give an example. Unison has boasted recently in I must say that I have not had one single constituent various documents that securing paid facility time for complain to me about trade union funding—not one—in trade union activities, such as attending conferences the 10 years that I have been in Parliament. In terms of 85WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 86WH employment rights, we already have the most business- I am conscious of the time, Mr Owen, and all I want friendly employment rights in the whole of Europe. to say in conclusion is that I have worked for many good That is undisputed, and if people do not believe me let companies, none more so than Thales, which is a very me quote Richard Lambert, the director general of the successful and progressive business. It sees every benefit CBI in 2009, who said in a foreword: in having trade unions in the workplace. In fact, it goes “In today’s difficult economic climate, it is more important out of its way to ensure that people have the opportunity than ever that all resources available to the workplace are well to join a trade union. The rhetoric from Conservative deployed. Union reps constitute a major resource: there are MPs today is different from what is happening in the approximately 200,000 workers who act as lay union representatives. real world and it is really disappointing to see that the We believe that modern representatives have a lot to give their Conservative party, which has some decent people in it, fellow employees and to the organisations that employ them.” has been dragged down by the young Turks.

Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): 10.15 am Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, however he would analyse or describe the business-friendliness of the current Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): I will thank Government, being business-friendly does not necessarily my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton (Fiona mean the opposite of being in favour of workers’ rights? Bruce) for securing this debate. I wanted to speak today because I am supportive of Jim Sheridan: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right what trade unions do in representing the interests of and I am glad that he made that intervention. their members, giving them a voice and standing up for There are some members of the Conservative party their rights. Although the traditional view of the relationship who live in the real world, none more so than the between employers and trade unions has been that it is Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong one of confrontation, that view is misleading; in most Learning, the hon. Member for South Holland and The cases, employers and union representatives have a very Deepings (Mr Hayes), who said: constructive relationship. “I want to pay tribute to union learning reps, who have made Indeed, from the point of view of the employer many so much difference to so many lives, and to such effect. Trade benefits come from unions. For example, trade unions unions can play an invaluable and immeasurable role in improving can be a supportive and welcome presence in assisting skills in the workplace.” with significant changes within a business and they also That suggests that there are some Conservatives—apart provide a forum for negotiation that often saves time from those in Westminster Hall today—who live in the and cost compared to dealing with employees on an real world. individual level. For my sins, I have been a member of the Transport On a personal level, I am hopefully about to be and General Workers Union and I am still a proud elected as the new president of Conservatives at Work, member of the Unite union. I am also proud to be the which was formerly Conservative Trade Unionists. I chair of the Unite parliamentary group, which meets pay tribute to Lord Taylor of Holbeach for all the work regularly and takes up issues with whatever Government that he has done as the previous president. My colleague, are in power. Before anyone asks about my funding, my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), there is absolute transparency about my funding, including is also very much involved with Conservatives at Work. my funding from the trade union movement; it is all Conservatives at Work has played an important part recorded in the books and is there for everyone to see. in guiding the Conservative party in its work with trade unions, so I am involved in that and I have always In the short time that is left for me to speak today, I remained supportive of the aims of trade unions. That will focus on one of the major issues that trade unions said, I am uncomfortable with the idea of taxpayers’ are involved with, which is health and safety in the money being used to fund union officials who are workplace. For my sins, I am also chair of the all-party working in public sector roles, as was revealed in my group on health and safety, which deals with occupational own part of the world in June last year when it emerged health. We have just released a report that highlights the that taxpayers are paying almost £200,000 towards the dangers from asbestos to children, teachers and other salaries of union officials at North Yorkshire county people who work in schools. There is not one single council while important local services were under threat, business in this country that would raise the issue of and indeed continue to be under threat. people dying of asbestos-related diseases, especially children who go to school and who are in danger of On a wider level, it has been revealed that in 2010-11 being contaminated by asbestos and suffering from public sector bodies spent £113 million on staff working such diseases. As a former shipyard worker, I have seen on trade union activities. people die of mesothelioma, which is the most horrible death that anyone could ever see, yet employers are still Mr McCann: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? churning out asbestos to the third world because it has been banned in this country. That is what trade unions Nigel Adams: I will push on, as I only have a couple are about; that is what their job is about. It is to ensure of minutes to speak. that people go to work safely and come home safely. It To clarify, £113 million of taxpayers’ money was is unfortunate that the hon. Member for Beckenham spent. Broken down, an estimated £80 million was spent (Bob Stewart) is no longer in the Chamber, because he on paid staff time, with £33 million in direct payments, is a former member of the armed forces and it is a little which was £7 million more in direct payments than in known fact that more people are killed in the workplace 2009-10. At a time when there is a lot of protest about in the UK than British service personnel are killed in cuts—due to the catastrophic financial position left by armed conflict. Labour, a party that I understand receives 90% of its 87WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 88WH

[Nigel Adams] So what is the motivation for today’s debate? I do not think it is about facility time. I think it is about that core funding from trade unions, although I stand to be issue in the minds of some Conservatives who believe corrected on that—it is not right that we have public that the relationship with the trade unions and the sector workers who are being paid not to do the front-line Labour party is too close, and they want to undo it. service that they were employed to do. As the taxpayer That should not be the driving force. We know that the is picking up the bill, the subscriptions that the unions figure of £113 million has come from the TaxPayers raise from their members, which the man on the street Alliance. It states that £80 million was for paid staff would assume were being used to fund the union, can time and £33 million was in direct payments, which then be spent on other activities, such as campaigning equates to staff costs of 2,840 full-time equivalent staff. or potentially keeping the Labour party afloat. However, those figures do not calculate the savings All of us on this side of the fence were thrilled at the made by individual staff in the work that they do. A Prime Minister’s recent public support for the campaign modern country should be looking for good industrial on union funding. He described the use of taxpayer relation patterns. funding to pay for trade union activity as unsustainable, When I was the Minister with responsibility for both morally and economically, and I am pleased that employment, I saw the need to ensure that we had we have the weight of the Government behind us. genuine co-operation in the workplace, whether it was I accept that under the Trade Union and Labour in the private or public sector, and to ensure that we Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, union officials have could get productivity and develop as a competing the statutory right to “reasonable time” off work, with nation in the world. There will always be difficulties and pay, to attend to specified trade union duties, but let me different aspirations between employers and employees, say that again—it should be “reasonable time” off work. and that is why we need good human resources departments and good, strong trade union bargaining. I hope that Government Members will reflect on this and not make 10.19 am it a politically motivated campaign. I hope that they Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): I congratulate heed the words of the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on Halfon), because we need a constructive dialogue with securing this debate. I thank her for saying that trade trade unions. If there are issues and problems with unions are a force for good, and that has also been buildings and suchlike, it is better to deal with them in a mentioned in the speeches overall. positive way rather than wage a political campaign that will undo the good relationship that exists between I am a member of Unite and of Unison. Unite has employers and employees. contributed to my election funding for many years, and I hope that that continues for many years to come. If it was not for the trade union movement, I would not be 10.23 am here as a Member of Parliament. I was brought up as a trade unionist and my politics came from involvement Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) in trade unions. We need to consider the history of how (Con): Thank you for calling me in this debate, Mr Owen. political development took place, particularly in the I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton Labour party and its relationship with trade unions. (Fiona Bruce) on securing it. May I make it clear at the Since becoming a Member of Parliament and being beginning that I am not proposing to end up getting involved in trade union activity, I have also had the into trade union bashing, because I recognise that the dubious pleasure of being the Minister with responsibility unions play an important role in industrial relations for employment and employment rights for three years. and in making sure that everybody works together. May For me, the debate hits home. Had the debate been I also correct a possible misinterpretation? I understand entitled “Review of facility time”, I might have understood that the term “pilgrim” refers to a trade union official the need for a discussion about the issues that affect our who goes out and campaigns. In Plymouth, being a local authorities, although I would not have agreed with Pilgrim means being a supporter of Plymouth Argyle the need for a review. If we agree with the argument for football club. I am delighted to say that I was there to doing away with facility time for public union officials, see them draw 0-0 against Dagenham & Redbridge at what do we do about human resources teams in local the weekend. authorities? Do we get rid of them next? In reality, these It is important to recognise that in my city in my people, from all sides, contribute to making sure that constituency, 38% of people work in the public sector, democracy and diplomacy in employment relations so there is a great deal of interest in employment rights goes on. and how the trade unions work not only with the city In my view, there is no case for looking at political council, but with a whole series of different organisations. levies. The political levy ballot was first introduced in They work with the health service, for instance, and 1980 by the Thatcher Government. The hon. Member with Babcock, which is a significant employer in helping for Witham (Priti Patel)) let the cat out of the bag when to ensure that our Navy continues to operate properly. she talked about the political levy and the transparency From my perspective, I find it difficult to go out on of the Union Learning Fund. Most employers—perhaps the doorsteps and explain to people that, at a time when the hon. Lady would like to check—would agree that we are making cuts to front-line public services and that fund is one of the finest things that we did in when the local authority is making sure that it empties Government, because it provided the opportunity for the dustbins and that the potholes in the roads are filled working class people to engage in training and develop in, the trade unions should end up being treated as a through higher education and beyond. It was welcomed special case. I hope that the Government will ensure by most employers, particularly the CBI. that there is significantly more transparency in how the 89WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 90WH trade unions operate. Perhaps the local authority should about 40% of facility time, so it is not only public sector make a decision once a year about whether it wants to representatives who are paid for by taxpayers for facility continue to make the facilities available. time. I think that the trade unions have done a significant About the money that has been suggested is being job, and they have a significant part to play. Indeed, paid by the taxpayer, in my experience, if I had any time during the discussions on Post Office privatisation, I off for facility time, I would have just received the wages met with trade unions and I encouraged them to get that I would have received had I been at work. That is involved in trying to sort out the problems inside the not even a saving. No one was put in my place, so there Post Office, and I encouraged them to make sure that was no saving. It is misleading to suggest that there can they were able to buy shares in that service. That is be a huge saving in facility time, because, in the main, something that we may need to look at. people are not replaced when they are doing facility My final point—I am aware that lots of people wish time, and that is important. to speak—is that we need to look at the trade union levy I represented people in the mining industry. My and ensure that people can opt in rather than having to facility time was about health and safety. What is more opt out. It has to be a positive choice that people make. important than health and safety in the workplace? I If it is that way round, we can have a level playing field visited people who had lost their husbands underground. for everyone to operate in. They did not want to see the colliery manager or anyone from the management. They would ring up and say, “Mr Lavery, can you go and speak”— 10.26 am Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab): In the brief time that I Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. have, I want to say that I believe that this is a callous attempt to attack the trade unions and trade union 10.30 am members in the workplace. Many of them are ordinary men and women simply seeking to do a valuable job. Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): It is a My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, —my very good friend and former mining colleague—said Mr Owen. that he is not sure that anyone here has ulterior political I, too, start by congratulating my hon. Friend the motives: I am sorry to disagree, but I believe that that is Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on securing this the case. important debate. The level of taxpayer funding of trade unions has clearly become a major political issue. Fiona Bruce: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? As sunlight is the best disinfectant, it is important that such issues are debated honestly and openly in Parliament. Ian Lavery: I will not give way. It has been mentioned I am amazed at the churlish comments made by some before that we want more transparency. Since the Tory Opposition Members in not congratulating my hon. Government took office, they have introduced a certification Friend on securing the debate. The trade unions, over officer. We now have more legislation than any other this Parliament, under a Conservative-led Government, democracy in the western world, and our trade unions will still receive more than £500 million pounds of are more restricted than anywhere else. My view is quite taxpayers’ money. I cannot think of any other issue that simple—there is a concerted attack on ordinary men MPs feel should not be debated at all. We can argue and women. However, we should not be surprised. about reforms to the national health service and the When any Government Member gets up and says, “My police, but when it comes to trade union funding, auntie used to work here, and my father was a miner”, Opposition Members feel that it is somehow beyond the we know that something is coming in the following pale to even debate or discuss it. I can only think that sentence: kick the trade unions. they worry that when the public realise how much of I disagree with several things that have been said. On their taxes go on funding the trade unions and not on 30 November, the day of the public sector strikes, the front-line services, there will be a huge public outcry. Prime Minister clearly stated in the House that he They fear that the momentum for reform would be would review the facility time for trade unions. That unstoppable. was his reaction—to kick the trade unions for daring to have the audacity to speak up for their membership. Jim Sheridan: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? However, it had been mentioned beforehand. Mr Burley: No, I will not. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): We, on the Government side of the House, feel that Will the hon. Gentleman give way? the public have a right to know where their taxes are going. That is why my hon. Friend the Member for Ian Lavery: I will not give way. It had been mentioned Congleton has done such an important job this morning at the Tory party conference by officials and Ministers in securing the debate on behalf of hard-pressed British who were proud to be trade union bashers and trade taxpayers. union kickers. That is why a lot of the new Tory MPs As my hon. Friend said, there is now widespread are thinking that this is the way to get a job in the party. public and parliamentary concern about paid time off They think, “Let’s start kicking the trade unions. That’s for trade union activities and duties, an issue that has what we should be doing.” been acknowledged by the Minister for the Cabinet I have been a trade union representative since the age Office and the Minister for Local Government. They of 16 or 17. I have been involved in both the private and are both looking at reforming that practice, known as public sector. By the way, the private sector represents public sector facility time. 91WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 92WH

[Mr Burley] the TUC now receives three quarters of its funding from the public purse, runs a surplus of £40 million a I understand that the Cabinet Office is about to year and is sitting on top of £1 billion of assets. The last launch a consultation into the extent—indeed abuse, as time public sector organisations operated at that sort of pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Witham profit was in the ’90s in the privatised utilities, which (Priti Patel)—of so-called facility time. I would be grateful were struck with a windfall tax by the right hon. Member to the Minister if he could update us on when the for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) in ’97. We consultation will take place, what its parameters will be, have to question now whether the trade unions should when it will be likely to conclude, and what the be subject to a similar windfall tax. They received £113 recommendations for reform might be. million last year and £80 million in paid time for staff. The issue this morning is one of basic principle: is it As I have said, under the Conservative-led Government, appropriate for the taxpayer to subsidise trade unions at they will still get more than £500 million. It is right that all, and if so, to what extent? In the brief time I have we ask whether that money could be better spent on the this morning, I want to deal with the issue of principle, front line. That sum buys a hell of a lot of nurses, because as far as I can tell, it has never been properly doctors, teachers and police officers. explained or defended in public. It is unfair for taxpayers to shoulder the burden. I listened carefully to the response of the right hon. Trade unions should pay for representation in the public Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) to sector themselves, using their subscription income. An the ten-minute rule Bill tabled by my hon. Friend the hon. Member said that that would somehow end trade Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse unions. It will not; they can clearly afford to represent Norman) on the issue. It was notable that in his response, themselves, as we have seen with the huge sums that at no point did the respected former Minister—I am Unison has. Taxpayers should no longer be expected to sorry to see that he is no longer in the Chamber—defend fund the army of trade union representatives. or explain the principle of a public subsidy to trade unions. He opened his response by saying: 10.36 am “This Bill attacks the most basic and most benign feature of trade union work—the day-to-day support for staff at work by Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): It is a their colleagues who are prepared to volunteer as trade union pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I representatives.”—[Official Report, 11 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton 201.] (Fiona Bruce) on securing the debate. It is important That rather missed the point, because we have no problem that things are debated. However passionate the arguments with colleagues who are prepared to volunteer as trade on each side are, there is nothing wrong with having this union representatives, just with colleagues who think debate. they should be paid by the taxpayer to be trade union I have been disillusioned this morning. I am certainly representatives. In fact, if I was a volunteer trade union not speaking in the debate to bash the unions. I do not rep, doing a worthy job for a few hours a week because I believe that my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and believed in helping colleagues, I would be rather annoyed Ainsty (Nigel Adams) wanted to bash the unions either. to think that whereas I worked for free, other colleagues felt that they needed to be paid to do it; in fact, some Fiona Bruce: Will my hon. Friend confirm that not feel that they need to be paid full-time to do it. Where is one single Member on this side of the Chamber has said the fairness in that? Why do some trade union reps need anything other than to acknowledge the good work of to be paid while others do not? the unions?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Perhaps I could Alec Shelbrooke: When people look back through defend that by pointing to Germany. Not only does Hansard, they will see that much praise has been given Germany have the most productive manufacturing and to the trade unions. industrial sector, it has one of the highest levels of I was a member of Unite for 11 years. My money public subsidy, recognising that productivity, health and ended up being spent against my hon. Friend the Member safety and the competitive nature of its industry benefit for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), but there we go. I cannot from having active union-work force engagement. There say that I was ever funded by Unite. I believed in the is the defence. How would the hon. Gentleman respond trade unions, and one of the most important things to that? about them comes down to the shop stewards. I have seen some good shop stewards—members of the Labour Mr Burley: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s party and elected councillors. I was a Conservative intervention; at least he has had a go. I find it utterly councillor, and the shop steward in the university where counter-intuitive to claim that higher public services I worked was a Labour councillor, but we were able to can somehow be delivered with public sector staff working work together. A lot of it comes down to the shop for the union rather than in their jobs. There may be steward on the floor, and I have seen progress being case studies of union reps doing valuable work, but made. equally, there are case studies of union reps working I am not here to bash the work of the unions at all. against the public interest, as has been exposed by MPs The problem I think we have—I put this challenge to and the media, so I do not think the hon. Gentleman’s Opposition Members—is that if at the next general point holds. election, Royal Bank of Scotland turned up and said, In the minute that I have left, I want to point out “We have decided to give £10 million to the Tory party a new statistic. The campaign that we formed, the to campaign,” there would be outcry from the Opposition Trade Union Reform Campaign, has pointed out that Benches. 93WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 94WH

Nigel Adams: From our Benches as well. Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. That is a point of debate. Alec Shelbrooke: Yes, probably from ours as well; we would not be happy with it. That is an important point. Alec Shelbrooke: Thank you very much Mr Owen. There is some perception that we are union-bashing, We have seen in the past couple of minutes where my but that is not true. I remember listening to the speech frustration has lain, with people saying, “Unions do made by the leader of the Labour party at conference, this” or “Union bashing”. That is not what the debate is just after he had been elected. He spoke about the about; it is about funding and how public sector money dinner ladies who were told that they had to buy their is used. Politics is about perception, and if there is a uniforms and aprons. The trade unions got involved perception that public money given to the unions is and made sure that they did not have to do that. That is then given to the Labour party, the best way to solve important work by trade unions. that problem is to tinker with the rules and have an Everyone here likes to mouth off. We are the people opt-in, so that people can say where they want the who stand up and front up. We will stand up, debate money to go. Then the unions can say, “We have this and have an argument, but 95% of the people out there many people opted in and this pot of cash, and we have would sweat with fear at having to stand up right now to decided to give it to the Labour party.” No one would make arguments. That is why we need healthy, working argue with that. We cannot argue with that. trade unions. There may need to be some reform. The balance However, there are some problems, and there is an needs to be redrawn for some of the public sector easy way to overcome some of the perceptions about workers working full-time purely on union business, but the funding between trade unions and the Labour party. that is a different debate. Please do not make this an It is simple: instead of having an opt-out of the political argument about union bashing. That is offensive to levy, let us have an opt-in. Someone would have to opt many Conservative Members who believe in the work in each year, which then has to be audited. Where the of trade unions. I am not here to speak for everybody pot of money from the opted-in political levy is spent on the Government Benches, but I know that a great can be decided by the trade union. many of my hon. Friends very much believe in the work of the trade unions. A great number of us have been Jim Sheridan: By shareholders as well? members of trade unions and have worked in places where we have seen their work, but that does not mean Alec Shelbrooke: Absolutely. The hon. Gentleman that the situation is completely okay; there are aspects asks whether shareholders would be able to do it. Why that need reform, but debate is the best way to examine not? We are trying to empower shareholders. that. Mr McCann: Does the hon. Gentleman not concede Ian Lavery: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? that it has already been tried? The Conservatives introduced the Trade Union Reform and Employment Rights Act Alec Shelbrooke: I will, but I only have about 10 seconds. 1993, which forced trade union members to re-sign up Ian Lavery: The hon. Gentleman is being very to their trade unions every three years—a further attack. conciliatory in his contribution. The political levy is Does he also concede that while he may believe in trade covered in the Trade Union and Labour Relations unions, the contributions from the hon. Members for (Consolidation) Act 1992. Union members must be Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) and for Witham (Priti balloted, whether or not they pay a political contribution. Patel) demonstrate that they are on a completely different planet from the one he is on? Albert Owen (in the Chair): Order. I call Gareth Thomas. Alec Shelbrooke: I would not say that my hon. Friends are on a different planet from me; their arguments just 10.42 am have a different emphasis. Many Government Members Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I believe in trade unions, and find it demeaning to be congratulate the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona compared to the Third Reich. It demeans the hon. Bruce) on securing the debate. She said that trade Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), who said that we unions are a valuable part of our civic society and that were going the same way as Hitler by trying to remove they do hugely important work on behalf of many of the trade unions. That devalues the debate today, which their members, and I very much agree with that comment. is about where the funding comes from. She went on to make a series of other points from which Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Is my she drew conclusions with which I am afraid I cannot hon. Friend aware of the Warwick I and Warwick II agree. agreements? To get the policies that they wanted from a I am slightly surprised that she and some Conservative Labour Government, the trade unions dictated the policies Members should so obviously want to attack the interests to be enacted by a Labour Government in return for of hard-working people—the home help, the teacher, union funding. the nurse, the learning assistant, the dustman, the cleaner. Those and many others who work in the private and, in Alec Shelbrooke: There are indeed many stories, but I particular given today’s debate, the public sectors are want to return to the specific— not paid huge salaries. They are part of the squeezed middle and are seeing their finances hit hard by the Jim Sheridan: On a point of order, Mr Owen. That Government’s VAT rise, for example, and by high energy statement is completely untrue. Trade unions do not bills, which Ministers will not act on. Many of them are dictate Labour party policies. The hon. Gentleman extremely worried about whether they will have a job in should withdraw that remark right now— six months’ or a year’s time. 95WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 96WH

[Mr Gareth Thomas] the support of many business people, so much so that the former director general of the CBI, Sir Richard If the hon. Lady and some of her colleagues have Lambert, described them as having their way, the right of such people to be properly “a lot to give their fellow employees and the organisations that represented will be taken away.Thousands of hard-working employ them.” families will lose that most basic of rights—the right to If such a senior figure from the business world was be properly represented when they need it most. That moved to endorse the role of union representatives, point was made by my hon. Friends the Members for maybe Conservative Members should pause and consider Blaydon (Mr Anderson) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery). whether the performance of organisations in the public Virtually all the staff who would be affected most by sector benefits from union representatives paid for by the hon. Lady’s proposals do not earn huge salaries, yet the public sector, as my right hon. Friend the Member they still demonstrate considerable commitment and for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) and my hon. hard work in delivering some of our most basic and Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and important public services. The Prime Minister once Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) said. spoke of compassionate conservatism. I ask the hon. Research by the University of Hertfordshire examining Lady and her colleagues, how is it compassionate to the benefits of funding trade union facility time in the take away from often low-paid, hard-working employees public sector suggests that the work of union representatives the opportunity to be properly and professionally saves between £260 million and £701 million per annum. represented when they need it most? For every £1 spent on union facility time in the public sector therefore, between £2 and £5 is returned in accrued benefits. Many City institutions would be proud of that David Morris: The hon. Gentleman referred to hard- rate of return. I gently ask why the hon. Member for working families. Does he not think that it is appalling Congleton and her hon. Friends think that Britain can that hard-working families’ taxes are funding people afford to waste such sums of money, because that is who should be working, but rather than doing their what would happen if her proposals were accepted. actual jobs, the taxpayer is paying them to be union The organisation that appears to have created the officials pro rata? context for the debate, and indeed for other such debates, is the TaxPayers Alliance. Its report does not seem to be terribly well researched. It is certainly not up there with Mr Thomas: With all due respect to the hon. Gentleman, research from the Institute for Fiscal Studies or Barnardo’s I think that he has got completely the wrong end of the and it certainly contains misunderstandings about how stick, as I will explain. the Union Learning Fund works. When I was preparing If an employee is facing sexual harassment, worried for the debate, I was interested that the slightly calmer about safety in the workplace, about to lose their job or voice of the Minister for Further Education, Skills and have their pay cut, and does not know where to turn Lifelong Learning praised the work of Unionlearn. The when they have problems at work, trade union report refers to unions that do not exist and to organisations representatives—independent of their employers—offer that are not unions, including School Leaders Scotland, a crucial place to turn. They are trained and experienced the Retired Officers’ Association and, I am told, a credit in handling such issues and in liaising with employers to union. resolve disputes and workplace problems before they escalate. They help to reduce the cost to the immediate Priti Patel: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? employer and the social and human cost for the individuals Mr Thomas: Not now, no. concerned. They reduce costs to the employer and Trade unions are heavily regulated, a point made by ultimately help to reduce the cost to the taxpayer, a my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck. The right of point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen employees in the public sector to be represented properly North (Mr Doran). is a measure that not even Margaret Thatcher in her Even if one accepts the figures in the TaxPayers wildest moments wanted to abolish. I recognise that Alliance report, which seems to have provided the context TaxPayers Alliance reports are to Conservative MPs for the debate, union representatives amount to only what sweets are to little children: a temptation, a must-have, 0.05% of the public sector work force, and, it must be something to cry and shout about. Older heads, wiser said, they carry out a significant proportion of union heads—I hope Ministers—need to recognise that behind duties in their own time. They have attracted a vast the sound and fury, trade unions play a quiet, useful amount of Conservative MPs’ time. It is reasonable to and important role in helping our public services to run wonder whether spending so much time on that issue is more smoothly. In the worst of times, when employees the best use of the House’s time. The national health feel vulnerable and on their own, a trained and professional service is in crisis, we have record levels of joblessness, representative, a trade union representative, can play an the economy is in free fall, welfare to work schemes are important role in supporting them. falling apart, many charities and community groups are Albert Owen (in the Chair): I am grateful to hon. in a desperate search for funding and there are huge Members for adhering to the time limit. I call on the cuts to our armed forces. When all those issues deserve Minister to reply. the attention of the House, it is a little surprising that Conservative Members want to focus on 0.05% of the 10.50 am work force. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick As my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Hurd): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Paisley Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) pointed out, and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) for recognising interestingly, union representatives continue to enjoy that my friend and colleague, the Minister for Further 97WH Trade Union Funding29 FEBRUARY 2012 Trade Union Funding 98WH

Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning, my hon. Friend reps must carry out. They could include collective the Member for South Holland and The Deepings bargaining negotiations, formal engagement in statutory (Mr Hayes), lives in the real world. Some have doubted consultation on collective redundancies, accompanying that in the past, so it was very helpful of the hon. an individual to a disciplinary hearing, and can also Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North to confirm include health and safety responsibilities. Activities include that truth. However, he was entirely wrong to not attending union annual general meetings, executive congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton committees and workplace meetings to discuss the outcome (Fiona Bruce) on securing the debate. I do so, and of negotiations. congratulate her also on how she presented her concerns. There is a statutory entitlement to paid time off to She always speaks with a great deal of personal conviction carry out union duties, but there is no such entitlement that is often rooted in real experience, and she did so for union activities. However, some employers, including again today. in the public sector, extend paid time off to activities as I was disappointed that so many Labour MPs appeared well. There is no right to time off for trade union to come here to frame the debate as the Tories bashing activities that consist of industrial action. The amount the unions. That is not the language I heard at all. Hon. and frequency of time off, whether paid or unpaid, is Member after hon. Member stood up to recognise the for negotiation between the employer and the union valuable role of the unions, as I do too. No one in the and depends on what is reasonable, taking account of Chamber needs a lecture about the value of good all the circumstances. There is no statutory minimum or industrial relations, or the cost of bad industrial relations, maximum. That ensures the necessary flexibility to and various Opposition Members spoke powerfully accommodate the wide variety of different work forces about that. For the avoidance of any doubt, the Government and different day-to-day circumstances within those are not proposing any change in statutory entitlement work forces. By that I mean that what is reasonable to paid time off to carry out union duties. I am grateful today may not be reasonable tomorrow if the circumstances to my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert have changed. Halfon) for pointing out that that goes with the grain of An ACAS code of conduct underpins the legislation. Lady Thatcher’s position. The code is comprehensive and, among other things, In the context of the public sector, there is legitimate emphasises the importance of clear procedures and concern about the level of contribution from the taxpayer, record keeping, as well as general considerations in about the issue of balance, which was raised by my hon. determining what is reasonable. They include the size of Friend the Member for Congleton, and—critically—the the organisation and number of workers, the need to issue of transparency, on which my hon. Friends the maintain a service to the public, and the need to ensure Members for Witham (Priti Patel), for Plymouth, Sutton effective representation and communication with workers and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) and for Selby and Ainsty with a range of needs. (Nigel Adams) spoke strongly. That is what we are As I said earlier, at the heart of the framework is the debating this morning. importance of good industrial relations in maintaining I start with the law. We recognise clearly that the an effective organisation. A reasonable amount of paid Government have a role in facilitating the conditions time off offers value for money for customers of an for a positive relationship, including balancing the needs organisation and users of their services. For example, it of the employer with those of the employee. That is can minimise working time lost due to disputes and achieved largely through the Trade Union and Labour accidents at work. Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992. As the title indicates, Some hon. Members mentioned the union modernisation the Act brought together a variety of legislation that fund. The latest round of projects is currently winding had been introduced and amended during the previous up and will be completed by early 2012. No further 20 years—a much more turbulent industrial relations rounds of the UMF are planned, and no further funds climate. The Act covers a wide variety of issues, including will be committed to it. It is important, however, for recognition of unions in the workplace, the responsibilities Government to ensure that public sector employers of the employer and union representatives and, of course, manage the paid time off they grant their union industrial action. The extent to which the Act addresses representatives effectively to deliver the benefits I have trade union funding is in the context of union keeping mentioned. of financial records, use of membership subscriptions I was asked about the proposed consultation in relation for political purposes and, in the context of this debate, to the civil service, which was announced at our party paid time off to carry out essential duties. conference. In answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley), we have already Ian Lavery: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? announced that we will be consulting with the civil service trade unions on the following areas: reduction in Mr Hurd: I will make more progress before taking overall facility time across the civil service; ending or interventions. limiting the practice of 100% of civil service employees’ Aside from one or two specific instances, the Act time being spent on trade union duties and activities; does not distinguish between the public and private ending paid time off for trade union activities, as opposed sector. The statutory framework recognises that there to duties; and reporting, developing a common system will be essential business that underpins the union’s for reporting and monitoring across the civil service. formal role and helps to facilitate good industrial relations That is the framework of the consultation, which I am in the work force. The Act therefore provides for time assured will start imminently. off to carry out that business. In doing so—this is We will seek to review and rebalance the amount important to the debate—it distinguishes between duties of paid time off provided to undertake trade union and activities. Duties are the essential tasks that union duties. The current level of facilities time offered to 99WH Trade Union Funding 29 FEBRUARY 2012 100WH

[Mr Hurd] Renewable Energy trade unions across Departments is very generous, and is certainly significantly more than that allowed in the 10.59 am private sector, or indeed in the wider public sector. While recognising the importance of effective representation Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) in the workplace, we firmly believe that trade union (Con): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, facility time arrangements in the civil service are in Mr Owen. I am grateful to Mr Speaker for granting this urgent need of modernisation to reflect modern working important debate, because we are rapidly approaching practices. The consultation is focused on the civil service, 2016—a year that is demanding the Minister’s attention, where my responsibility as a Minister in the Cabinet given that security of energy supply, on which he is Office lies, however other colleagues who have responsibility something of an expert, is increasing in importance. for these matters in the wider public sector have been I hope that this debate will feed into the wider discussion asked by the Prime Minister to review the position in about the security of supply and be a useful contribution their sectors. to the thinking on this issue. Given the three important issues that underpin that thinking—keeping the lights 10.58 am on, the diversity of energy sources and increasing the Sitting suspended. amount of renewable energy—I am pleased that hon. Members are here to listen to the debate. The debate title is a testament to Britain’s growth in green technology and our status as a world leader in climate change awareness. However, as I will explain, for too long we have trailed behind countries such as Germany in the production of green energy, and we must take decisive action to secure support across the whole sector. The reality is that attention within the renewables incentive debate has been centred on solar photovoltaic and wind energy. In the short term, river and wave energy may become a new focus. However, too little attention is paid to anaerobic digestion and other energy- from-waste technologies. The decoupling of the two subjects of waste management and energy production in the mind of the general public would be useful in overcoming hostility to the production of energy from waste.

Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): I pay tribute to the excellent work done by my hon. Friend in this regard. Does she think that we need to expand on the excellent work of companies, such as ACM Environmental plc, which has converted waste into renewable energy in schools in Kent? Waste is converted on-site, rather than outside in other areas, and used to heat water, for example, at those schools.

Caroline Nokes: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. That is exactly what I shall focus on, albeit in Hampshire rather than Kent. To date, the main focus of attention on energy from waste appears to have been on large-scale industrial production of waste-sourced energy.Advanced gasification is a key part of securing green energy and decreasing landfill: it is a carbon-lean process involving the efficient, high-temperature conversion of waste to base-load electricity. After the August 2010 announcement that energy from waste can be sold to the national grid, there is now real discussion about how local authorities in particular can secure income sources by selling green energy. For example, Air Products, a leading provider of industrial gases and environmental systems has been granted permission for a 49 MW advanced gasification plant in Teesside, the building of which will begin next year. That development will create 700 jobs, divert up to 350,000 tonnes of waste from landfill and produce enough predictable, clean power for 50,000 homes. Air 101WH Renewable Energy29 FEBRUARY 2012 Renewable Energy 102WH

Products is precisely the sort of provider of clean energy Another major advantage of anaerobic digestion as a that we should be encouraging to meet our renewables renewable energy source is that the material left over at obligations. the end of the process—an odour-free digestate, rich in nutrients—can be used effectively as fertiliser. This could, Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Does and really should, become the standard fertiliser on the my hon. Friend agree that it is vital, in any incineration market. However, many domestic and business users do or gasification process, that the end result comes from not understand the benefits derived from buying recycled harvesting recycled material along the way? products. A new petrochemical-derived fertiliser can cost a farmer between £200 and £400 per tonne, but the by-product from a micro-anaerobic digestion site is Caroline Nokes: Indeed; my hon. Friend is correct. more likely to be of a consistent chemical and nutritional I should like to explore a number of issues facing the specification. Currently, the anaerobic digestion industry development of the renewable energy from waste industry is struggling to sell recycled fertiliser, produced to resource outside the large industrial-scale plants that I have action programme standards, at £5 to £6 per tonne. I mentioned. I want to show how the current incentives would be grateful to the Minister if he expanded on are working and how we could adjust them to accelerate how we can best explain the benefits of, and incentivise awareness and the development of the industry, particularly the consumption of, recycled fertiliser in farming and harnessing the potential for small-scale production, as domestic gardening. well as production on an industrial scale. Many sites in the UK are producing biowaste. According I have called this debate because incentivising small-scale to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural production could develop valuable employment Affairs, the UK produces approximately 7 million tonnes opportunities, help small businesses and local communities of food waste and about 90 million tonnes of animal generate their own green energy, grow UK exports and, slurry and manure per year. With 23.6 million households most importantly, assist the Government to achieve and 41,000 farms, it is clear that the potential for green secure, diverse and green energy. energy production is enormous. As a country, we continue to produce too much waste The UK currently has 214 anaerobic digestion plants and we need to promote better uses for our unwanted installed, of which 146 are sewage treatment sites. In produce. Producing more energy from waste is therefore comparison, Germany has approximately 9,000 farm-based a win-win policy, but it needs to be carefully explained sites and China has a simple, rural, domestic-scale to the general public, as the subject is easy to misunderstand, approach to anaerobic digestion, which benefits millions especially when anaerobic digestion is not well of people. It is clear that the UK has far greater potential communicated. to make use of this technology. In light of Germany’s achievements in this field, the NFU’s commendable Anaerobic digestion is the process whereby biowaste vision for 1,000 on-farm anaerobic digestion plants by from plant and animal material is converted by micro- 2020 seems quite modest. organisms in the absence of air into biogas, which can in turn be used to generate green electricity and heat. There are almost unlimited possibilities for anaerobic Anaerobic digestion can help reduce fossil fuel consumption digestion on a local scale. In my constituency, the and greenhouse gas emissions—two essential goals in patented technology of an innovative micro-anaerobic our fight against climate change. Almost any biowaste digestion technology provider, SEaB Energy, based on can be processed in that way, including food waste, Southampton university science park, has produced a energy-producing crops and crop residues, slurry and system that creates and generates power from waste manure. The process can accept waste from our homes, inside a shipping container. Using that technology, the supermarkets, industry and farms, ensuring that significantly company has proved, both at the university science park less is sent to landfill. and, locally, at Sparsholt agricultural college, that it is possible to implement micro-anaerobic digestion solutions. A number of other food producers, golf clubs and Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. hotels are also exploring the benefits of using such Lady for bringing this important matter to Westminster technology across the UK. Hall. Does she feel that, to incentivise the use of waste All organisations create waste. SeAB is leading the material from farms, for example, the Government need way, through anaerobic digestion, in reducing our to consider financial incentives, because although every dependence on landfill by converting waste into valuable farmer would wish to do that, financial restrictions energy. I should welcome the Minister’s visiting and might prevent them from doing so? meeting the people who have developed this world-leading technology, so that he can see green energy in production. Caroline Nokes: Not just financial incentives are needed; There are several different options for anaerobic digestion, deregulation and, in some instances, making the planning depending on the amount of energy required, and each process a lot simpler for agricultural enterprises are has its own challenges. A centralised anaerobic digestion needed, too. facility requires large quantities of biowaste to be collected The National Farmers Union is a vociferous advocate and driven across the country, inevitably generating a of anaerobic digestion and argues that its use on farms strain on the existing road network and increasing the reduces emissions of methane from manures and carbon footprint of the technology. It is also capital agricultural residues, improves air quality through the intensive, and the site-planning process can be lengthy. control and reduction of odours, such as ammonia, and By comparison, decentralised sites are arguably simpler leads to benefits to water quality from the improved to operate, quicker to build and easier to install and management of nitrogen and other nutrients present in manage. Road haulage is largely eliminated and the manures. waste producer benefits directly from using its own 103WH Renewable Energy29 FEBRUARY 2012 Renewable Energy 104WH

[Caroline Nokes] to contribute to the secure, diverse and green supply of energy? If so, can he outline clearly how the potential waste to generate its own green energy. I would be for small-scale production can be encouraged and grateful to the Minister if he commented on how we can incentivised? Secondly, what changes to legislation and incentivise the many small waste producers, such as regulation—in particular to that coming from the farmers, food growers, food packers, hotels, hospitals, Treasury—would be a prerequisite for the vision of schools or prisons—the list is almost endless—so that small-scale energy from waste production to become a they can benefit from green energy throughout the reality? Thirdly, what can be done to rebalance the country. In short, anaerobic digestion reduces the need debate, to support the broader market development of for landfill, with the exciting possibility of creating sustainable fuels from waste, including micro-anaerobic sustainable communities with a consistent waste fuel digestion and to ensure that the necessary incentives are power source. in place for the sector to thrive? I thank the Minister for The NFU is keen to ensure that smaller, farm-based taking the time to address the issues, and I look forward biogas proposals are not disadvantaged by being labelled to hearing his response. waste management. If we are to see the necessary growth in on-farm anaerobic digestion plants, it is 11.14 am important that they are subject to simple permits. I will be pleased to hear the Minister’s comments on that and The Minister of State, Department of Energy and on what work can be done with the Department for Climate Change (Charles Hendry): It is a privilege and a Communities and Local Government to ensure that pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I light-touch regulation is encouraged among local planning thank my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and authorities. Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) and congratulate her on securing the debate. She has given us an excellent It is important to note that there is tremendous summary of the benefits that such technologies can potential for the upgrading of biogas to biomethane for bring and a clear understanding of where she sees the motor vehicle use as a tradeable low-carbon fuel or for barrier to their deployment. I want to go through where direct injection into the natural gas distribution network. we see the opportunities and to say what we are doing I understand that equipment for biogas upgrading is to remove the barriers. available from Germany, where such pipeline injection is growing, and in our constant search for fresh sources My hon. Friend has not been alone in the debate. I of car fuel, that is an extremely encouraging possibility. welcome the contributions of my hon. Friends the Members for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke), Other sources of renewable fuel can be found in the for Redcar (Ian Swales) and for Gillingham and Rainham waste stream, such as the conversion of used cooking (Rehman Chishti) and of the hon. Member for Strangford oil into biodiesel, which is entirely sustainable and (Jim Shannon), which all showed the understanding, derived from a waste product. That would involve recycling depth of knowledge and interest in the issue that is almost 100 million litres of waste cooking oil each year, present throughout the country. while helping the Government to exceed their greenhouse gas emission targets in transport by 8%. However, as I have already had the chance for a brief conversation highlighted by the recent report on environmental taxes with some of the people involved in SEaB. I am delighted by the Environmental Audit Committee, of which I am with the opportunity to visit in the future and to see on a member, the removal this March of the 20p per litre the ground the work that they are doing in the constituency duty differential on such fuel will make it prohibitively of my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and expensive and high-blend users will have no choice but Southampton North, but it is also important to put our to return to fossil fuels. That will have a disastrous discussion in the context of the wider energy debate, impact on the UK biodiesel industry, resulting in the and that is how I wish to begin. She is absolutely right, loss of green jobs, as well as discouraging further investment however, to highlight the untapped potential of the in the development of new technologies in the energy- sector, and part of our objective as a Government is to from-waste sector. realise that potential in the most effective way that we can. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): Does my hon. Friend As my hon. Friend outlined, renewable energy has a agree that such fuels should be taxed on their energy vital role in our low-carbon future. By the end of the content and not on their volume? The tax on volume is decade we must cut our carbon emissions by 35% on one of the problems for the industry in getting going. 1990 levels, and by the end of the next decade they must have halved. We also have the EU renewable energy Caroline Nokes: My hon. Friend makes an excellent target, which means that we must generate 15% of our point, and there is much to credit his argument. energy from renewables by 2020. In order to meet that I strongly urge the Minister to continue to speak to target, about 30% of our electricity and 12% of our heat his colleagues in the Treasury, because I fear that, will need to come from renewable sources. That is not without continued support, we will jeopardise the significant only about meeting targets, because it is also the right steps that have already been taken. The energy-from-waste thing to do, and we need to reduce our dependency on sector is full of innovative and in many cases ingenious imported fossil fuels. Home-grown renewable energy ideas. I am conscious that we need a wide variety of can enhance our energy security and give us a greater energy generation methods to meet demand. No one degree of energy independence, helping to shield us form of green energy provides the whole answer, and we from global fossil fuel price fluctuation, which seems to need a range of solutions, both large and small. be in only one direction at the moment, as we see high In summary, there are a number of questions for the prices for oil and gas. She also touched on the immense Minister. First, does he agree that there is real untapped economic potential in renewable energy, and the sector potential for small-scale energy-from-waste production could provide opportunities for up to 500,000 jobs. 105WH Renewable Energy29 FEBRUARY 2012 Renewable Energy 106WH

In the Department of Energy and Climate Change, transport. Biomass heat and power includes energy we have been working with the renewables sector to from waste technologies, such as anaerobic digestion, understand more effectively how much renewable energy waste combustion and the new, advanced technologies can be deployed by 2020, and to identify the current of gasification and pyrolysis. We believe that those eight constraints that must be addressed. technologies collectively are capable of delivering more than 90% of the renewable energy we need for 2020. Rehman Chishti: The Minister knows that 6.7 million Instead of just having targets, we are determined to tonnes of food waste are being discarded each year. Are show how we meet our objectives. It is easy for Governments there any plans to ban completely food waste going into to have targets, but then to leave them to a future landfill? If so, what is the time frame? Government to explain why they were not met. We are determined to put in place a clear road map that shows Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend is aware that what what barriers exist, and how we intend to overcome we have been seeking to do is to give local authorities them so that we can be more effectively held to account more say in how they should manage their affairs, in the process. rather than a top-down, Government approach. For Last year, we published the UK renewable energy many of us with landfill or land-raise issues in our road map, which shows where we are now on those constituencies, it seems absurd to put food waste into eight technologies, how deployment may develop up to such facilities. At the end of the day, however, we want 2020, and the actions that will need to be taken now to the local authorities to be the driving force in resolving overcome the barriers to deployment. Although our such issues. In his own case, Kent is a beacon authority evidence shows that we can meet our target of 15% in looking at how to manage its waste issues. renewables by 2020, we are clear that we need a rapid increase in deployment. At the end of 2010, renewable Ian Swales: I thank the Minister for investing DECC energy accounted for 3.3% of UK energy consumption, money into an anaerobic digestion facility at the Centre so there is a significant way to go. for Process Innovation in my constituency. He is referring a lot to renewable energy, but does the way in which Renewable electricity and heat technologies are generally waste is treated under all our policies throughout the more expensive than fossil fuel generation, and require various Departments satisfy the renewable energy criteria subsidy to boost deployment, just as every previous new and meet the simplicity requirements mentioned by my energy technology has done. Support is available under hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton the renewables obligation, the feed-in tariffs scheme, the North? renewable heat incentive, and the renewable transport fuel obligation. Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend raises an important issue. For the first time, we are now moving towards a Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): The Minister talks clear, cross-Department strategy on waste. That means about eight key technologies and delivering them affordably. looking at the hierarchy and at where we reuse and I entirely agree with that, but will the road map be recycle, but also seeing that as part of that process there flexible enough to change if technologies advance with is residual waste, and getting an energy source from that time? If one technology becomes more prevalent in is better than putting it into landfill and land raise. delivering the green energy that we need, will changes be made to cover that ? Jim Shannon: Will the Minister give way? Charles Hendry: My hon. Friend makes a crucial Charles Hendry: I will give way briefly to the hon. point. We have set out in the road map the high, Gentleman, but then must get on to the comments of medium and low trajectories for each technology. A key my hon. Friend. element that may change is the cost of delivering them. For example, we are working with the industry on Jim Shannon: I recognise the Minister’s passion for offshore wind to bring down the cost by 40% over this the subject. He mentioned a Government strategy: will decade, and that is critical to the extent of its deployment. that include the regions such as Northern Ireland, Scotland If the costs cannot be brought down, we must make and Wales as well, so that it is uniform and UK-wide? choices on behalf of consumers to show that we are trying to deliver those renewable objectives at the least Charles Hendry: We seek to work with the devolved cost to consumers. Flexibility is an integral part of that Administrations but, clearly, different rules apply in process. different parts of the United Kingdom, where the different Despite the undoubted benefits of renewable energy, Governments have responsibility for such matters. If we it must be cost-effective and affordable compared with have central control in Westminster over different aspects, low carbon alternatives. I acknowledge the valid point we have the influence, but we obviously wish to work that my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and with the devolved Administrations to ensure that the Southampton North made in her introduction that the strategy is as holistic as possible. The more that we can renewables industry and investors need stability to plan remove the barriers and have an integrated and holistic ahead. Uncertainty is often the greatest enemy of approach, the more effectively we can attract investment investment. I also appreciate that recent changes, particularly into the sector. to the support for solar photovoltaic installations under We have identified eight technologies that we believe the feed-in tariffs scheme may have temporarily affected will bring us closest to delivering those 2020 targets industry and investor confidence, although we are cost-effectively and sustainably. They are onshore and now seeing strong growth again in the number of PV offshore wind, marine energy, biomass heat and electricity, installations. We are committed to delivering our goals ground source and air source heat pumps, and renewable in a way that minimises the impact on consumers’ bills. 107WH Renewable Energy29 FEBRUARY 2012 Renewable Energy 108WH

[Charles Hendry] programme of work with 56 actions to tackle the key barriers to deployment. You will be grateful, Mr Owen, In our measures to reform the support mechanisms, that I will not go through all those this morning. we have three objectives. They are designed to make However, work is progressing on a range of actions, the budget go as far as possible, and to maximise the including disseminating information, particularly on number of people who can benefit from schemes. They regulatory controls; providing guidance on the costs will provide greater certainty for the industries concerned and benefits of AD and best practice projects; developing on the rates of return that they will receive up to 2020, skills and training for AD operators; building markets and they will ensure value for money to consumers who for digestate; and understanding the barriers to the use pay the bills. of biomethane as a transport fuel. Those pick up on I understand that the scheduled banding review for most of the issues that my hon. Friend raised. An the renewables obligation has caused some concern. annual progress report on how we are moving to meet Banding reviews ensure that as market conditions and those actions will be published in the summer. innovation within sectors change and evolve—this point Our commitment to anaerobic digestion is also clear is directly in response to that made by my hon. Friend through the financial incentives that we offer. Anaerobic the Member for York Outer (Julian Sturdy)—developers digestion is the only biomass technology supported continue to receive the appropriate level of support under the feed-in tariffs scheme, which is aimed at necessary to maintain investment. We have studied how smaller scale projects under 5 MW.Larger-scale projects much subsidy different technologies need. When new are eligible for support under the renewables obligation. technologies need help to reach the market—for example, The renewable heat incentive supports biogas combustion wave and tidal energy, which are emerging technologies—we below 200 kW thermal and the injection of biomethane have proposed increasing support, but when market at all scales into the national gas grid. costs have come down or will come down, we propose In addition, a £10 million loan fund is available from reducing the subsidy accordingly. That proposal will the Waste and Resources Action Programme to support result in a lower impact on consumers’ bills than keeping the development of new AD capacity to divert 300,000 the existing bandings, and will drive a higher level of tonnes of food waste from landfill. WRAP is jointly deployment. Setting the bands for the period to 2017 administering, with the Technology Strategy Board, a also provides the industry with the certainty needed to fund designed to drive innovation in AD systems to make investment decisions now. The public consultation bring down the cost of capital. Waste, including anaerobic on the banding review has closed, and we will issue digestion, is one sector likely to be eligible for initial the Government’s response in the spring, confirming intervention by the Green investment bank. In the the banding levels moving forward. Legislation setting meantime, a new team within the Department for Business, the new bands in law will come into effect on 1 April Innovation and Skills—UK Green Investments—has 2013. £100 million to invest in smaller green infrastructure I have mentioned the eight existing technologies that projects, including AD, on a fully commercial basis. I we have focused on in the UK’s renewable energy road hope that that reassures my hon. Friend that significant map. Anaerobic digestion has, without doubt, an important support is coming through, and that we have identified role to play in both biomass heat and electricity generation. the issues. The United Kingdom produces about 100 million tonnes I share my hon. Friend’s enthusiasm for smaller, of food waste, manure, slurry and sewage sludge that is more local plants. That is backed up by the study by suitable for treatment by anaerobic digestion. When the consultants for the renewables obligation banding review coalition was formed in 2010, we stated our commitment that suggested that anaerobic digestion potential lies in to developing energy from waste through anaerobic stations with less than 5 MW of capacity. That ties in digestion. I assure my hon. Friend the Member for with our commitment to localism, which was raised Romsey and Southampton North and other hon. Members during the debate, and is why, as part of the rural who have spoken that we remain absolutely committed economy growth review, the Government have announced to delivering on that commitment. that they will promote the development of community-scale Last June, the Department for Environment, Food renewable energy projects in England through the and Rural Affairs and Department of Energy and Climate establishment of a £15 million rural community renewable Change jointly published the anaerobic digestion strategy energy fund. and action plan. It sets out our vision for anaerobic I also share my hon. Friend’s concern about the digestion, with an estimate of potential that could reach difficulties that anaerobic digestion operators experience between 3 and 5 TW hours of electricity by 2020. in trying to sell their digestate as fertiliser. It is a Currently, there are only 172 MW of installed anaerobic valuable biofertiliser that can be used as a renewable digestion capacity in the UK, processing more than source of critical plant nutrients, such as nitrogen and 5 million tonnes of material, and generating more than phosphorus. Although the UK has long-term experience 1 TW hours per year. More is coming through the with digested sewage, digestate derived from food wastes system. Just last week, Tamar Energy announced plans and other inputs is often regarded as novel by the to develop 40 AD plants in the UK, with an installed market. There is a reluctance to accept it until evidence capacity of 100 MW. In addition, we know of more of its quality and benefits can be provided. The anaerobic than 100 plants that have received planning permission, digestion action plan contains a number of actions to and a further 80 that are going through the process. build confidence, and I hope that my hon. Friend will It is clear that momentum is building and support for continue to work with WRAP to ensure that the identified the technology is growing, but we recognise that significant challenges are understood. barriers must be overcome for the sector to reach its potential. The anaerobic digestion strategy and action 11.30 am plan also sets out a joint Government and industry Sitting suspended. 109WH 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 110WH

Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) they must account for every penny while the so-called big boys of Scottish football are able to rack up debts of [MR CLIVE BETTS in the Chair] hundreds of thousands, if not millions of pounds, with no obvious means of repayment. 2.30 pm Thirdly, it is worth noting that those who work Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): behind the scenes at our smaller clubs often do so for It is a pleasure, Mr Betts, to serve under your chairmanship little or no recompense, and would normally have no for the second time during this Session. I have been expectation of receiving any praise or credit. For example, asked to give the apologies of some hon. Friends who on Saturday, I discovered that the tannoy announcer at are detained in the Scottish Affairs Committee and the Cowdenbeath FC is Mr Jim Stark, who was editor of Treasury Committee. I am sure that many of them the Central Fife Times. Behind the scenes, one of the would otherwise have been here to discuss their take on key cogs in the functioning of a successful match day is what has happened in the Scottish game in recent Mr Alex Haddow, chairman of the local community weeks. council. Without the tireless support of such individuals, Hon. Members need no reminding of the importance and hundreds of other community heroes, clubs such as that football clubs play in our communities north and Cowdenbeath and Brechin City would not function. south of the border. I am privileged to have two senior The strength of feeling in clubs further up the Scottish football clubs in West Fife. Dunfermline Athletic is in leagues is equally strong, and due to the full-time nature my constituency, and Cowdenbeath is some 800 metres of their clubs, arguably their roots go even deeper into over the border in the constituency of my right hon. their local communities. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath For the sake of probity, perhaps I should declare an (Mr Brown), the former Prime Minister. I want to say a interest at this stage. I am not only a Dunfermline little about the role of those clubs, and clubs like them, Athletic season ticket holder, but my constituency office throughout Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. is located within the club. Dunfermline Athletic—or the On Saturday, I was lucky to be taken to Cowdenbeath’s Pars—like many other clubs, has invested heavily in home game against Brechin City football club as the supporting youth and grass-roots football. Indeed, the guest of a local law practice, Stenhouse Husband & club offers classes for children from 18 months and Irvine. While sitting with the club’s board of directors through primary school to introduce them to the game, over lunch, I was able to talk about the state of the and to build their confidence and interpersonal skills. Scottish game as a whole, and the way in which clubs Those classes, with the support of their parents, help to operate in the lower divisions. People give up their time develop children’s motor skills, and they provide a fun and money to support clubs such as Cowdenbeath and and safe environment so that children can integrate and Brechin City, and I was struck that they do so not for develop their characters. The emphasis is, rightly, on financial gain, or the glamour, or even the company of fun and enjoyment, but it is a crucial role, for which Members of Parliament, but because of their deep clubs receive no financial recompense, and fills a vital affection for the clubs in their communities, their love of role in society—some might say the big society, which football, and because they want to give something back the Minister is so keen on. Beyond primary school, to their home towns. football clubs, like those south of the border, have successful youth academies. Dunfermline’s under-14s On Saturday afternoon, I had the opportunity to and under-15s recently visited the city academy in spend some time with the chairman of Cowdenbeath Manchester, and were able to take part in a contest football club, Donald Finlay QC. You may not be against players from the likes of Manchester City. familiar with that name, Mr Betts, but he is one of Scotland’s highest profile Queen’s Counsel, a former The financial situation in Scottish football clubs in vice-chairman of Rangers football club, twice rector of recent years has been dwarfed by their counterparts in the University of St Andrews, and someone who has the English leagues. I shall provide some context for the enjoyed a colourful and entertaining history of involvement finances of Scottish football. The television sponsorship with Scottish football. While chatting to him on Saturday deal in Scotland is only approximately 1% of that south afternoon, I asked him why, having been involved with of the border. Outside the old firm, players’ wages in Rangers during their most successful period, highlights the Scottish premier league are typically only £1,000 to of which included narrowly missing out on a European £3,000 a week, which is a fraction of that paid to cup, and achieving nine league titles in a row, he provided players in the premiership, the championship, or even so much time and energy to support one of the lesser league one. To put it simply, the annual wage of a lights of Scottish football. I hope that Mr Finlay does Dunfermline player is less than the weekly salary of a not mind me sharing his answer. He said that he was Manchester City, Chelsea, or Manchester United squad Cowdenbeath born and bred, and was always proud of player. None the less, clubs such as Dunfermline are his home town. He simply wanted to put back a little expected to compete with the giants of Scottish football. into the community that he loves so much. The recent financial events at Rangers football club The second thing that struck me was that clubs in the cannot be seen in isolation. Before I talk about the lower leagues operate with far more fiscal responsibility impact on other clubs of Rangers going into administration, than some of the clubs in the top two flights of Scottish it is worth recapping the saga at Ibrox. The origins of football. Perhaps it is because those involved in the Rangers’ problems date back over two decades. In 1988, running of lower league clubs are local business men David Murray bought a majority shareholding in the and lawyers that they have a healthier respect for a club for approximately £6 million. Mr Murray invested balance sheet, and recognise that a club’s expenditure heavily in building a team that could not only dominate must not exceed its income. It is undoubtedly a source the Scottish league, but compete with the best of Europe. of frustration to many smaller clubs that every month Something that is often forgotten is that when Rangers, 111WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 112WH

[Thomas Docherty] good examples of that model in Scotland. I referred earlier to Brechin City which, as hon. Members may under Murray and Graeme Souness, were building their know, had on its board Mr David Will, the FIFA successful side, which would go on to win nine league vice-president for the British Isles, and a local lawyer, titles in a row, English clubs were banned from competing steeped in Brechin City. There are successful models of in Europe, so Rangers were able to attract players from clubs, both large and small, where the shareholders are England who, to play in Europe, either had to move to the fans. I hope that the Treasury will look at ways of Europe or travel north of the border to play for the old trying to ensure that a fit and proper person test means firm. The list of players at Rangers during the late ’80s not only that liars such as Mr Whyte are not put in and early ’90s was a “Who’s Who” of Bobby Robson’s charge of clubs, but that we can all have comfort in club England team. The names will be familiar to every finances for the future. English fan: Chris Woods, Terry Butcher, Trevor Sinclair, Gary Stevens, Trevor Steven, Ray Wilkins and Trevor Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I Francis. They were great players in a great team. congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate, Rangers were able to use their dominance and ongoing which I am attending as a Pompey supporter, so I share success to attract some of Europe’s best players, such as his pain and that of other hon. Members. We too have Brian Laudrup and Paul Gascoigne. Unfortunately for been badly let down, but I hope that the supporters’ the club, their ambitions were never matched by their trust will soon have a financial stake in the club. income, and in 2004 those debts peaked at a staggering Does the hon. Gentleman agree that when HMRC £72 million. However, in the next few years, Rangers deals with clubs in such situations, it is important that it reduced their debt to some £30 million by the end of the considers the club as a distinct entity, and does not tar it decade, according to their annual accounts. In 2010, with the sins of the whole football community going Mr Craig Whyte confirmed to the stock exchange that back over many years? That has been my experience of he was in talks with Rangers’ owners about a takeover. the way that HMRC dealt with Portsmouth, and I In 2011, Mr Whyte formally bought the club for a would like to put on the record my thanks to HMRC notional £1, having agreed to take on the club’s debts. staff, and to the Minister for facilitating dialogue. I He promised Rangers fans that he would be able to hope that Rangers and other clubs have similar success. service those debts. Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I congratulate those comments. She has been a staunch champion of the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. He referred Pompey’s interests, and I know that she badgered the to the history and the debts racked up by Rangers, but Minister on more than one occasion to ensure that the does he agree that that is commonplace today? Manchester club got a fair hearing. She is right to say that each club City and Chelsea have massive debts, far in excess of needs to be considered on its own merits, and I will what Rangers ever racked up. The only difference is that perhaps return to that point during my remarks. they have someone to stand behind those debts. The phenomenon is not new, and sadly it has not gone away, Thanks to the Scottish press, which has been assiduous but it is not unique to Rangers. in trying to get to the truth of this sorry affair, it has been particularly disturbing to discover in recent weeks Thomas Docherty: The right hon. Gentleman is correct. that HMRC has been engaged in a long-standing battle What is appalling about the Rangers situation, and has with Rangers over what the Treasury believes, and I come to light in recent weeks, is that Mr Whyte did not believe, is a tax-avoidance scam instigated by David have the money to service the debt. It has now transpired Murray. If Rangers lose this ongoing court case, it has that in what I would regard as a most disgraceful act, been estimated that the club will owe HMRC somewhere Mr Whyte and cohorts borrowed money from Ticketus in the region of £45 million in unpaid taxes from over on the future sale of season tickets. In effect, Rangers the past decade. fans paid for Mr Whyte’s ill-fated takeover; they are the On 9 January 2012, shares in Rangers were suspended losers, and I am sure that disgraceful situation will be from trading on the PLUS stock exchange for failure to recognised across the House. submit audited accounts—alarm bells should have rung at that point. Mr Whyte, however, dismissed it as Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I, unimportant because he was by then, he argued, the too, congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the dominant shareholder. On 5 February, Rangers were debate. He has raised an important issue about Craig knocked out of the Scottish cup by Dundee United at Whyte and the apparently underhand way in which he Ibrox. On 11 February, Dunfermline hosted Rangers in acquired a controlling influence at Rangers football the Scottish premier league. Finally, after months of club. Does he agree that if football clubs could allow speculation, on Monday 13 February, Rangers lodged fans a greater degree of controlling influence, à la their intention to enter administration at the Court of Barcelona model or perhaps in the way alluded to Session. Mr Whyte told reporters that, in his estimation, earlier in respect of Cowdenbeath, it might move us the club’s final tax bill could amount to £75 million—an away from the insidious controlling influences of multi- astonishing amount. The following day, the club appointed billionaires who appear to use football clubs as playthings? Duff and Phelps as administrators. The SPL deducted 10 points from Rangers, which left them 14 points Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely behind Celtic. right. I see that the hon. Member for Portsmouth North Rangers entering administration has not simply changed (Penny Mordaunt) is in the Chamber. She has championed the dynamic of the title race but has had a devastating that model for Portsmouth FC, so perhaps she will be impact on three groups of people: first, the staff—both tempted to contribute to the debate. There are some playing and non-playing—of Rangers FC; secondly, 113WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 114WH the companies that are owed money by Rangers as It is more than likely—in fact, I have been led to creditors; and thirdly, the other 11 members of the believe—that other clubs, which I will not name because Scottish premier league, which is the group that I wish they have not asked to be named, are also owed money to raise with the Minister today. for various transactions and are in a similar situation to No one should have anything other than sympathy Hearts. As you will see, Mr Betts, these are not insignificant for those who face losing their jobs at Ibrox, in particular sums, particularly given the parlous state of Scottish those who work behind the scenes and are not millionaires, football as a whole. Scottish football faces several months and who will not easily find employment in the current of uncertainty and disruption while the financial affairs economic climate. of Rangers are sorted out. There are two distinct yet equally important categories Before I set out what HMRC should be doing going of club. Two clubs in the SPL have claimed that they are forward, it is worth reflecting on its role in allowing the owed money by Rangers for ticket sales, and I will situation to occur in the first place. In recent months, explain their situation for the benefit of the House. every Member of the House will have been visited by Under the rules of the Scottish Football Association the owners of local businesses, asking for assistance in and the SPL, the total gate receipt for a league game working with HMRC to deal with short-term cash flow belongs to the home club. It is standard operating challenges. The sums involved are often not large. However, practice for the away club to sell tickets for their end of HMRC is not exactly known for adopting a sympathetic the ground, but under the rules of the league, that or flexible approach to assisting local companies with money must be paid to the home team within seven problems. days of the fixture taking place, minus any pre-agreed Indeed, the Minister will probably recall correspondence handling fee. The money is not the property of the away between him and me before Christmas about one of my team, which is merely the handling agent. local businesses, which despite many years without a For games in the Scottish cup, however, ticket sales single missed or late payment, had experienced a short-term for the whole ground are split equally between the two problem and found HMRC to be unbending and—dare clubs, minus any operating costs, and the home team get I say it?—uninterested in its problem. People can imagine to keep any proceeds from hospitality, refreshments, or the surprise felt by those businesses, many of which programme sales. Under SFA rules, the two teams that have contacted me in recent days, when we learnt that have sold tickets do not have any right to count those HMRC had not received any payment from Rangers for ticket sales on their balance sheets, as they are merely pay-as-you-earn or, apparently, VAT since last May and holding agents and the money is to be put into the pool that the sums for PAYE and VAT have now reached, of gate receipts for the cup tie as a whole. In other according to the Scottish press, some £15 million. words, the two clubs are merely acting as agents; it is not their money. I am not criticising HMRC per se for the decision not to require payment from Rangers. I do, however, believe When Rangers entered administration, the club and that it is wrong that the club has been treated differently its administrators, Duff and Phelps, refused point blank from not only any other club in the league, but thousands to hand either amount of money to Dundee United or of small and medium-sized businesses in Scotland. There Dunfermline, arguing that it should go into the pot of are serious questions that require proper answers, and I credited money. Let me be clear and send a message to hope that the Minister can provide some of them today. Rangers’ administrators: that money does not belong—and has never belonged—to Rangers. Holding on to it is not First, it is inconceivable to everyone, frankly, given only morally wrong, it is nothing short of theft. the sums and the time period involved, that HMRC What makes matters worse is that members of the allowed this situation to develop unilaterally. Can the Rangers board of directors were in the directors lounge Minister confirm to the House whether any UK Ministers at East End Park on the Saturday in question. They were aware of the size and severity of the non-payment looked their counterparts in the eye, and told them that by Rangers, and whether any discussions took place on Monday the money would be transferred to Dunfermline among UK Ministers and between Ministers and HMRC Athletic by BACS payment. It is utterly inconceivable about possible courses of action? Will the Minister also that on that Saturday afternoon, the board of directors, confirm whether any representations have been received which included Mr Ali Russell, did not know that on from the Scottish Government, either before or after Monday afternoon they would be filing papers with the Rangers went into administration, on the issue of its tax Court of Session. For the two clubs involved, despite liabilities? the support of the SPL and the SFA, it will probably As I said, I do not criticise the decision of HMRC not take months to recover the money to which they are to force payment of moneys due. However, I believe legally and morally entitled from Duff and Phelps. that given the knock-on effects on the other 11 clubs The second category of club involves any club in and the fact that the integrity of the Scottish premier Scotland—or elsewhere—that has entered into financial league season itself is now at risk, HMRC must take transactions with Rangers, for example over the transfer proactive steps to support the other 11 clubs. In short, I of players. We know that at least one club, Heart of would like HMRC to carry out the following actions, Midlothian, stated that it is owed close to £1 million for and I would be grateful for the Minister’s confirmation the transfer of a player to Rangers. It is in a more that HMRC will indeed do so. HMRC should now complicated situation—one that you will be familiar proactively contact the other 11 clubs to establish what with, Mr Betts—concerning the rule of football first financial liabilities they have as a result of Rangers creditors. As I understand it, Scotland does not have the going into administration. HMRC should then work same rules as England about football first creditors, but constructively and sensitively with the clubs and the that is an issue of ongoing legal dispute between the SPL to ensure that none of the other clubs is unable clubs, HMRC and the creditors. temporarily to meet their obligations to the taxpayer. 115WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 116WH

[Thomas Docherty] It would be a good thing for football if clubs had to take a stronger interest in each other’s financial performance To be clear, I believe that it is right and proper that by when they entered into financial transactions with each the end of the season, all 12 clubs should meet all their other. A club would really have to think, when it sold a financial obligations to HMRC and the taxpayer, but player to another football club, “Can this club afford to they need to be given the breathing space to sort out the pay us?” At the moment, clubs know that that risk is sorry mess created by Mr Craig Whyte. I urge the guaranteed by the football first creditors rule, so they Government to ensure that all the other 11 clubs pay in are more likely to sell players to clubs that cannot really full the sums owed to HMRC by the time of the last afford them. whistle at the end of the season, but that individual The type of discipline that I have described would be packages of payments can be tailored so that financial good. It might help to bring about something that is penalties are not incurred by them as a result of the badly needed in football in England and Scotland—some actions of another—indeed, the largest—club. deflationary pressure on players’ salaries and transfer I would be grateful if the Minister could also set out fees. That is where the money is going. There has never what contact he has had, if any, from the Scottish been more money in football than there is today, yet Government since Rangers went into administration to there have never been so many football clubs failing offer assistance to the clubs or to the SPL to meet their financially. obligations. I would be grateful if the Minister could meet me in the coming days if there are any questions Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman has been a that he feels unable to answer in a public forum, so that big champion of football reform. Does he not accept, we can further discuss the crisis in Scottish football. though, that the sums of money in Scotland are very different from those in England? The reality is that two clubs in Scotland hold 90% of the revenue and, in 2.54 pm effect, bully the other clubs in Scotland. Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I just Damian Collins: The hon. Gentleman makes a very want to make a few comments on this important subject. important point. The failure of Rangers in Scotland I will not claim to share other hon. Members’ expertise has a much bigger market-distorting impact on Scottish in Scottish football. No doubt, other hon. Members, football than the failure of Leeds United, Portsmouth particularly from Scotland, will speak with a great deal or another large club in the English premier league of insight about the situation at Glasgow Rangers would have, so it is a much more acute problem. That is football club. However, I think that the hon. Member an area where greater transparency on financial performance for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty), in and disclosure between clubs would help. However, that opening the debate, touched on a number of important is not something that the clubs should be allowed to do points that are relevant to football in Scotland and in on their own. They require help from the governing England and relate to the financial administration of bodies and, where necessary, from HMRC as well, so the game—in particular, the football first creditors rule. that that can be properly policed. I agree that it would There is no doubt that, in the case of Rangers, the be very difficult for smaller clubs in Scottish football to losers are the fans of the club and other clubs and start calling the shots with the old firm. That is a businesses to which it owes money. They are the people problem, but it is one where the competitions have a who have lost out as a result of what has happened. The role to play. failure of a club of its size has an impact in destabilising Where clubs owe money to the taxman, that is a the structure of the league, so in some ways everyone serious matter, as it is for any other business. The hon. involved in football in Scotland is affected, whether or Gentleman made that clear in his speech. Businesses in not they are directly employed by or associated with our constituencies—we have all had such experiences Rangers football club. The hon. Gentleman set that out in the past year or two—have problems because they are very clearly. in arrears; HMRC is coming after them for the money; I think that there is a big issue to do with the football and they ask for help. It is a very difficult situation to be creditors rule. The caution that I would express about it in. Businesses understand that if they owe money to the in relation to Scotland is that it has had a damaging and taxman, it is a serious issue, so how is it that football destabilising effect on the game in England. It cannot clubs have been allowed to build up large debts? be right that when a club fails and goes into administration, When Leeds United went into administration, the its creditors, if they are not within football, might get a taxpayers of the United Kingdom lost £6 million in penny in the pound. We might be talking about a local unpaid taxes. Why was it allowed to get to that stage business that prints the club’s programmes or a local and to get that bad? HMRC should intervene, but the builder who had worked on its ground. When Leeds competition organisers should be keeping an eye on the United went into administration, the West Yorkshire tax payments and how up to date they are for their ambulance service got pennies in the pound or a penny clubs. The Premier League in England has made some in the pound. However, footballers who are owed salaries progress with that. It even has a system where clubs can and football clubs in different parts of the country that have television money or prize money withheld from are owed transfer money get their money in full. them if they owe money to the taxman. That money The hon. Gentleman made a very good point about might go straight to the taxman. The clubs have to ticket sales—money that is supposed to pass directly understand that they have to pay their bills just like any from one club to the other. He highlighted that particularly other business. well. It is unfair to other creditors of football clubs— It is unfair for the clubs to subsidise spending that community businesses working alongside a club, perhaps they cannot afford by securitising their ticket sales, employing fans of that club—that they lose out massively. selling their future gate receipts, borrowing money from 117WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 118WH their banks until they cannot borrow any more, borrowing are losing money because the clubs owe them money money from the local businesses that they engage with and the obscurity of the clubs’ ownership causes further and owe money to and borrowing money from the concern and a lack of confidence, that needs to be taxman. They cannot keep on borrowing money at resolved. every opportunity until there is none left. That has to be The ultimate way to resolve who owns football clubs— stopped, and the tax authorities have a big role in doing again, HMRC may be able to help us on this—is to so, with the support of the competition organisers. That understand the source of the finance. People might is one of the reasons why the Culture, Media and Sport assume ownership or the ownership might be from a Committee, of which I am a member, has recommended fund that is registered in Nevis and operated in Switzerland. that there should be a licensing scheme for football, so Where does the money come from? HMRC has to look that the football authorities can keep an eye on the at that routinely. HMRC and football clubs’ banks have financial performance of clubs and ensure that they are to be satisfied that football clubs are not being bought not getting into too much debt. or injected with cash that may have come from uncertain There is also the introduction by UEFA of the financial or dubious sources, so that needs to be followed. fair play rules. In Scotland, just as in England, there will I feel that HMRC should launch a retrospective be many clubs playing in the top division that will have investigation to determine what the source of finance a chance of qualifying for European competitions— was for Leeds United and who owned the club, so that if certainly the Europa league, if not the champions league— there was any uncertainty about the club’s ownership that will want that licence. They will understand that and who was involved in putting in money to take it out they have to be able to balance their books in the of administration, that might be pursued. We have a medium term. That will be an incentive to clubs to right to know what happened in that case and the tax ensure that their financial performance is better in the authorities may be the only body that can pursue that. long run. We should be putting our own house in order, however, and the competition organisers have a big role Poor administration of football clubs creates a big to play in ensuring that that happens. debt to society, which communities around the country are paying. We should send a lesson out that we want There is a great role for HMRC in ensuring that tax greater transparency over ownership and greater liabilities are paid. There is a role in getting rid of the transparency of finances between clubs and a more football first creditors rule. responsible attitude from clubs in their transactions with each other, to avoid the big impact that we feel at Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman is making a the time and that we see with Rangers currently of the compelling argument, but perhaps I could tempt him to cost of failure. That is the cost to fans, local businesses say something about clarity of ownership as well. Part and the competitions in which they compete. of the issue with Leeds United in particular was the uncertainty over who owned which assets. Will he speak about that? 3.4 pm Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I Damian Collins: The hon. Gentleman pre-empts the congratulate the hon. Member for Dunfermline and final thing that I wanted to touch on in my remarks and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) on securing this important the subject of my ten-minute rule Bill, which I will debate. He will know that I have spent many a fine introduce on 13 March and which is about the ownership afternoon on the terraces of East End Park as a native of clubs and assets. It is an important area and one of Dunfermline, supporting the mighty Pars. My affections where HMRC could be prevailed upon to help. When have now transferred to the mighty Saintees of McDiarmid Leeds United failed, there was uncertainty over who Park in Perth. I know that it is very much to the hon. took over the club’s liabilities. It was taken over by a Gentleman’s disappointment that almost the entire length beneficial trust and the investors in that trust were never of the Scottish premier league separates Dunfermline made known. There were allegations of a relationship from St Johnstone just now. perhaps between FSF, which took over control of the The hon. Gentleman mentioned two other clubs in club, and some of the club’s other creditors. That was his contribution. It was a bit remiss of him, when never known, because we never knew the identity of talking about Cowdenbeath, not to give their nickname, those investors. It would help football a lot if there was which I am sure that you, Mr Betts, are bursting to transparency over the ownership of clubs and clubs’ know. They are known as the Blue Brazil, a nickname major assets, such as training grounds and stadiums, so that could never be more deserved. I remember when that we can see who controls them and where the money my grandfather used to take me to watch the cup games comes from. against Cowdenbeath, being a native and resident of There have been allegations that certain people who West Fife, where the league support was for Dunfermline. represent the brass plaque of the ownership of the club I went to Central Park to watch the cup games when are not the source of finance for the real ownership of Cowdenbeath were competing. That was a forlorn activity the club. I do not understand how the fit and proper back in the 1970s, because on only a couple of occasions person test can be applied to a club’s ownership if no did Cowdenbeath manage to get past the second round. one knows who that person is in the first place. We do He also mentioned Brechin City, which used to be in my not know who owns Coventry City, who currently play constituency, in north Tayside. What is notable and in the second tier of English football. Until last summer, significant about Brechin City is that it is the only we did not know who the owners of Leeds United were professional football ground with a beech hedge as its either. That cannot be allowed to continue. Certainly, if border. A lot of Scottish football fans liked to go along. clubs are failing and the taxman is losing millions of There were the bridies at Forfar Athletic and the beech pounds in revenue, businesses and local communities hedge at Brechin City. 119WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 120WH

[Pete Wishart] There is also the issue of television rights. As the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife said, they Enough of my tour around the football grounds of involve a fraction of the sums for television rights in Scotland; let us get on to business. I think that everybody England, but they represent a massive income for the here is a football fan, but where on earth are the rest of Scottish game. If there were no Rangers, what impact my Scottish colleagues? There is only the hon. Member would that have on the television rights sold to ESPN, for Dunfermline and West Fife. We get so few opportunities Sky and the BBC, which play a massive part in the to discuss Scottish issues, particularly important Scottish incomes of so many other Scottish football clubs? We issues about football. We are all proud that we represent would also miss the drama and spectacle of old firm football clubs in our constituencies. I have St Johnstone, games, which are enjoyed and appreciated not only in a fantastic team doing well in the premier league, but Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, but where are my Scottish colleagues this afternoon? It is throughout the world. not as if they get loads and loads of Scottish business in this House. Not one of them could be bothered to turn Thomas Docherty: Just for the sake of clarity, it might up today to discuss the biggest crisis that is facing our help to reiterate that if either half of the old firm is not national game. That is a disgrace, which says a lot about in the SPL, the contract with the TV companies falls. It my Scottish colleagues when it comes to debating these is therefore in the SPL’s interests to treat Rangers as a important issues. special case because of those knock-on effects. We have never had a crisis like this one. It is totally unprecedented and how it will end is anyone’s guess, but Pete Wishart: I am glad the hon. Gentleman mentioned the nature and the face of Scottish football will probably that. He is absolutely right that that is one possible change dynamically because of what is going on. consequence of losing Rangers. That is why we should do all we can to ensure the ongoing survival of Glasgow Thomas Docherty: First, some colleagues have been Rangers football club. detained at Select Committees this afternoon. Secondly, does he agree that many colleagues are nervous about Damian Collins: Glasgow Rangers is too big to fail, discussing what has happened with Rangers, because it and they will find a way of restructuring their debts and is difficult to have a rational, sensible debate about the coming back, but does the hon. Gentleman share my Scottish game without many of our constituents taking concern that the real long-term losers will be small umbrage at us? businesses and other football clubs?

Pete Wishart: I do not know that that is true. I know Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman is spot on. There that there is a bit of interest in this debate: one only has is, of course, talk and speculation about what happens to look across the corridor from here. That does not if Rangers are unable to come out of administration. excuse anything, however. This is important and it is Indeed, the Scottish press, particularly the sporting unfortunate that there are not more Scottish colleagues press, have a fascination with the old firm, and we read here to debate what is probably the biggest crisis that we about it almost every day. However, the hon. Gentleman have seen in our game. This deserves and requires is right that some of the small businesses that are proper debate and it is unfortunate that we will not have expecting payment from the administrators will suffer a that today, because this crisis deserves to be dealt with massive loss. That is a real issue, and I am grateful to as sensitively as possible. him for bringing it up. I listened carefully and closely to the remarks of the Football is our national game. All our football clubs hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife. Where I play an enormous part in our economic activity and can go along some way with him is that there is a real make a real contribution to our communities and desire for a solution to this problem. There has to be a constituencies. The Fraser of Allander Institute estimates solution, because it is almost inconceivable to imagine that the old firm’s economic importance to Glasgow Scottish football without Glasgow Rangers. They have and the rest of the Scottish economy amounts to 130 years of history and tradition. They have huge £190 million. More than 3,000 full-time jobs depend support—some 50,000 home fans go to watch Glasgow on SPL football, and £200 million is spent on related Rangers at a home game every second week in the city commercial activities in Glasgow alone. According to of Glasgow. To have that taken out of our game would the Rangers annual report, the direct economic activity have a significant and deep impact on the ability of the generated by the club is in the region of £56 million. SPL to continue to produce a platform that will engage Most importantly, there is also the issue of what and encourage people and ensure their support. happens to the 331 people directly employed by Rangers. It is not just about ticket receipts. When Rangers They must be absolutely paramount in our considerations, come to St Johnstone, it is the biggest weekend that we and I hope some solution is found so that they can have in Perth. It is not just the inflated gate that we get continue to serve in their jobs. by playing one of the old firm; it is also some of the This is not, however, just about clubs’ contribution to activity spin-offs for Perth. It is not just about the pubs our economy, important and significant though it is. on match day. Glasgow Rangers supporters may choose There is also the value professional clubs have for our to take a day either side of the game—the Friday night communities, and the hon. Member for Dunfermline or the Saturday evening—so our hotels and restaurants and West Fife mentioned that. We can all see the are busy. There are also the other activities that go on infrastructure that exists and the clubs our young people within the city. To lose that would be to lose a significant are encouraged to participate in. We know that our amount of income and economic activity, which would football clubs make an immense contribution to our be very much missed. communities. According to the SPL’s 2011 community 121WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 122WH report, 20,000 people participate in community projects to Scottish football and the number of jobs that depend weekly, and SPL clubs spent £8 million on community on it, as well as its history and tradition, its success and activity, which is no small sum. its value to the SPL. There are also the fans in Scotland. I know the The club is in a mess. The hon. Gentleman mentioned audience for SPL football has diminished, but 3.2 million the current regime, which has been a total disaster—we people still attend SPL games each season, and a further cannot call it anything other than that. Once Craig 76 million watch them on ESPN, the BBC or Sky. Whyte took over its debts, something was always going Football is therefore a big business, which contributes to happen. He did not have the money to ensure the much to our economy and our communities, and we club could get out of its difficulties. What he did with must ensure that we respond to the current crisis with Ticketus was appalling, and there will now be an SFA the sensitivity it deserves and requires. Scottish football investigation into the Ticketus deal. There will also be is in a precarious state, and it remains a fragile product, an investigation to see whether Craig Whyte is a fit and so it can ill afford to lose one of its major protagonists. proper person to run a football club, and we will have to see the details. Again, it is the fans who suffer, and the Of course, this is not just about Rangers. Several of people who work in the club have been the major our clubs are teetering on the brink of financial collapse recipients of all the bad news and all the doom and the and ruin. I just wish they could all be like St Johnstone, gloom. which is run so perfectly and effectively by Geoff Brown, Right now, the administrator is responsible for running its chair. It never gets into debt, it always ensures it the club. In the next few days, Duff and Phelps expect to looks after its liabilities and it never has a problem with announce the first round of job losses, which will first HMRC, but that is not the case with many of the clubs impact on the playing staff. There are outstanding in the SPL. I am thinking not just about Rangers, but I issues of payments to other clubs, and I have heard the will not mention the other clubs, because we all know representations from Dunfermline football club that it which ones are experiencing real difficulties and pressures. should be paid. The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife is right that money should be paid to clubs We have seen what happens when clubs cannot meet that are owed it, and Rangers have no right whatever to their responsibilities and liabilities. Dundee and Livingston retain it. However, the job losses show the real impact went into administration. We have also seen one SPL that going into administration has on people’s careers club—Gretna—go to the wall in the past 10 years. It and jobs. was not a particularly great example, and I doubt whether other clubs would like to replicate its business The hon. Gentleman talked about the Scottish model. Government’s role, and they stand ready to offer assistance to anyone affected by job losses. They have said they These are tough times, and gates are falling. We have will do all they can to keep in contact with the administrator heard from the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe and to be available to provide support and assistance if (Damian Collins) about the pressure of football wage there are job losses. In addition, there is the PACE— inflation and how it must be brought under control. partnership action for continuing employment—programme The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife was in Glasgow, which has offered to provide any assistance of course right to mention that SPL football is totally it can if there are job losses. PACE has offered Duff and different from the English premier league or first division, Phelps assistance almost daily to take things forward, and only the wages in the old firm are similar. However, and there have been several conversations to that effect. some clubs have tried to replicate what we have seen This is a developing and emerging situation, and Scottish elsewhere and to buy success by buying expensive players. Ministers and PACE are keeping their eye on it. They have tried to compete with the old firm and they have got into all sorts of difficulties. That is probably Thomas Docherty: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can one of the reasons why Dundee football club, in particular, provide some clarity, because he speaks on sport for the experienced the difficulties that led to its going into Scottish National party. He will be aware of reports in administration. There is a demand all the time to buy this morning’s newspapers that the Scottish Government more expensive players, because that is what the market are apparently offering all the assistance they can to the dictates, and clubs are encouraged to fork out money. Scottish open, and the assumption is that financial However, gates are falling, and there is any amount of assistance may be forthcoming. Does the hon. Gentleman competition from other activities for the time of agree that if the Scottish Government are going to put constituents, who might otherwise go to watch football money into the Scottish open, they should also see what games. financial assistance they can provide to the SPL? We all accept that our football clubs must meet their Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman is right, and I am financial obligations. Everybody in every business must grateful for that assistance for the Scottish open. I am pay their tax—it is as simple as that. They must pay it sure that he will be the first to recognise that the input on time and they must ensure that any business plan is that the Scottish Government have made to Scottish totally predicated on meeting their tax liabilities. However, football is significant—the £25 million that was announced I am sure I am not the only Member in the Chamber towards the national performance centre, for example, who will have put the case for businesses and individuals the £8 million through CashBack for Communities and in his constituency who have got into trouble over their the £4 million going into the refreshed youth action tax liabilities. I do not know how many letters I have plan for the next four years. That shows the Scottish sent to HMRC on behalf of small businesses and Government’s support for Scottish football and their people who have got themselves into difficulties. It is commitment to ensuring that it will continue to develop absolutely right that people also make representations in the next few years. That will be welcomed in football on behalf of Glasgow Rangers because of its significance throughout Scotland. 123WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 124WH

[Pete Wishart] institutions that are integral parts of communities—aspects of communities that inspire pride, loyalty, aspiration I want to mention a couple of initiatives. Unfortunately and ambition in individuals, but which also act as there was some appalling behaviour two weeks ago at standard bearers for those communities in the wider Glasgow Rangers, in the home game against Kilmarnock, world. I do not think that anyone could deny that which shows that there is still a massive problem with Rangers, Celtic—their great rival—and all the great sectarian chanting. I am delighted that for the first time clubs of Scotland have been standard bearers for Scotland the Scottish Government have put in place legislation to in the world of sport and beyond. tackle that effectively. It was not supported by the rest Rangers, of course, are a great Scottish club, and the of the parties in the Scottish Parliament, but at last one that prompted today’s debate. We heard a bit of something will be done to try to get rid of that curse their 140-year history, and about the nine great from the national game. championships that they won on the trot in Scotland, equalling, I believe, the Celtic record. I was not aware, Thomas Docherty: I regret the fact that at the end of a until I started looking at this subject, that they are also good speech the hon. Gentleman is trying to bring in the club that has won more national championships party politics. I went to the Dunfermline and Rangers than any club in any national football league in the game as a guest of the police, early in the season; the world. That is a measure of the club’s success. However, procurator fiscal was there. The PF, the clubs and the what we cannot understand by looking at the names police were clear about the fact that that legislation, inscribed on trophies and trophy walls in such clubs is which no one else in the Scottish Parliament supported, the wider, deeper, historical, cultural and sporting was unnecessary, and unworkable. significance of the club. Anyone who has been to Ibrox, as I have, as a great sports fan—though a Welshman, of Pete Wishart: It is the police who have been telling course—knows the importance that the community the Scottish Government that the legislation is required. attaches to it. It is right that we should be discussing the We have had that debate in the Scottish Parliament, and issue today, and framing our remarks in that context. thank goodness that behaviour will at last be challenged The other broad set of remarks on the sporting front effectively. I welcome the fact that the SNP Scottish was about the role of money in sport, and football in Government are deciding to take on the issue head on, particular, as well as about ownership, the transparency and trying to get that appalling scourge out of the of football club financing, and the sustainability of Scottish game. clubs in a world where money seems to be the prime There are other issues in Scottish football, but the driver, despite all those other—in many respects far one that we are debating is the big one—the thing that more important— cultural, historical and community we need to get tackled and sorted out. I hope that values associated with the role of the club. That is HMRC will work sensitively with the administrator, something that I, as a Welshman and a sports fan, feel is and that we will get a solution that will ensure that it significant for a different code of football—rugby football. will be paid what it is owed. The main thing is that We have similar issues with the game in Wales. I agree HMRC should secure the outstanding liabilities that with the hon. Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Glasgow Rangers has towards it. Let us hope that we Collins), who made some remarks about the necessity get a solution that will allow Glasgow Rangers to come for greater transparency about finances. He also said out of administration—a solution that will mean that some things, to which I hope the Minister will pay as much as possible will be done to retain the staff who attention, about the role of HMRC and the Government work on its behalf; that we will have a Scottish premier in seeking greater transparency in finances, ownership league worthy of that title and enjoyed by its supporters; structure and the potential pitfalls and difficulties that and that we can go on ensuring that that product can be clubs may encounter, in rugby and of course football. developed, and made entertaining and exciting for people Clubs are businesses, yes; but they are more than just not just in Scotland but worldwide. businesses. However, in that context of clubs as businesses the 3.22 pm role of HMRC is simple. Its job is to collect the taxes Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): I congratulate my that are due in the appropriate volume and at the hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West appropriate time. It is not often that I or other hon. Fife (Thomas Docherty) on securing an important debate, Members quote judges; perhaps judges would feel that which has touched on a much wider set of issues than we do not do so approvingly. However, Lord Justice just Scottish football. It covered the importance of Mummery, in a recent tax case at the Court of Appeal, football, and football and sporting clubs, as cultural said rather appositely that institutions within communities—institutions that help “tax is a contribution towards the costs of providing community bind communities together. I thought that my hon. and other benefits for the purposes of life in a civil society”. Friend’s remarks about Dunfermline, and in particular That is a phrase that would have fallen, perhaps not as Cowdenbeath, were deeply informative. I confess I was eloquently, but certainly as easily, from my lips. Tax is not aware that Cowdenbeath were known as the Blue important to the wider community just as those football Brazil. I assume that that is to do with the shirts, and clubs are. not the temperature in which they play north of the It is in those two contexts that I place my remarks. border; but it could be either, I guess. Individuals and businesses, however humble or, in the Two broad sets of remarks have been made in the case of Rangers, mighty they are, need to pay their debate, and I want to frame mine against that context. I taxes. Therefore it is a matter of great regret to me that have already mentioned one of the areas covered: the Rangers have not paid the £9 million in taxes that importance of football clubs as cultural and community HMRC has said is outstanding for PAYE and VAT. 125WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 126WH

That is why Rangers have gone into administration, dramatically as they have done with Rangers, and if which we deeply regret. As I understand things, HMRC they lead to the potential loss of great institutions that is also looking at whether there may have been instances are of such cultural and financial importance to their of tax avoidance. I am sure that the Minister will take local communities, Governments need to think about great care over that, given his and my deep and continuing the extent to which they must improve their insight into concern about tax avoidance. I know, in particular, that those sporting institutions and those businesses, and HMRC is interested, in the Rangers context, in the use consider their particularities. I hope that the Minister of employee benefit trusts. There are several investigations will comment on that issue too. in progress about EBTs, and, as I understand the matter, Finally, I will make what is perhaps a personal point. their use for payment of individuals working for Rangers, I echo the plea made by the hon. Member for Folkestone including players, plays a part in the non-transparency and Hythe that we should look at alternative models of of the financial affairs. I will not go into further detail ownership for football clubs and that the Government because I cannot: we do not have the detail that would should also become engaged in a discussion about those make further comment possible. However, I should like alternative models. In my capacity as a constituency assurances that the Minister is making himself certain MP, I have been working with Pontypridd rugby football that he understands, to the extent that he can, given the club and other Welsh rugby clubs to look at FC United arm’s length nature of HMRC, the detail and complexity of Manchester, which is a fan-owned football club with of the issues involved. I also ask him to consider the extremely transparent structures and financial arrangements. wider cultural set of understandings and sensitivities Those sorts of arrangements may provide the key for that HMRC needs to bring to bear in this case. the Government when they think about how to frame One of the other issues that has clearly come out of policy, not only at HMRC but more widely across this debate is the importance of local knowledge and government, that will help to ensure there is a greater local understanding—the rootedness of Rangers in the degree of transparency in ownership, management and— local community. Under the current Government, in crucially—sustainability for institutions that are not particular, and under the last Government, there has simply sporting institutions or businesses but, of course, been a reduction in numbers of local HMRC staff. That a vital part of their local community. reduction is being sped up under the current Government, with 10,000 more HMRC staff due to go before the end of the spending period; it was announced in January Damian Collins: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman that 4,000 or so staff would go. Given that reduction for picking up on something that I said. I wanted to and the potential loss of local knowledge, is the Minister clarify that although there is a role for HMRC, before certain that those people in HMRC who are dealing HMRC becomes involved there is a role for the competition with Rangers in Scotland will understand the cultural organisers to act as whistleblowers and bring in the context and have the requisite sensitivity to appreciate relevant authorities if they think there is a problem. The both the financial nexus locally—the interconnectedness competition organisers should be the first port of call of clubs and businesses that surround Rangers, and of and then there should be recourse to a higher authority course the connection between Rangers and the wider if they cannot sort out the problem themselves. Scottish professional football league, which, as we have heard from hon. Members, is a crucial connection—and Owen Smith: Again, I agree with the hon. Gentleman the cultural significance of Rangers for the local on that point. Clearly, there is a role not only for the community? authorities but for the clubs themselves—indeed, for Given the Minister’s slightly arm’s-length relationship the sport itself—to think about both the sport’s sustainability with Revenue and Customs, has he been briefed in in the long term and the extent to which money is quite detail about Rangers, to the extent that he can be often eroding the ability of local clubs to represent a briefed about the issue? Does he feel that he is fully on local community, whether that community is in Leeds, top of the issue? Does he understand—I am sure he Pontypridd or, as in the case of Rangers, Glasgow. must—the importance of Rangers to the wider community These clubs were not created for professional or financial and the wider sporting fraternity in Scotland? Is he benefit; they were created as part of community certain that the HMRC people dealing with Rangers representation. have the requisite expertise? HMRC needs to reflect on that point when it deals In closing, I will say a few things about the issue that I reasonably, sensibly and even-handedly with those clubs, think is at the root of many of the problems that we as it professes to do with all of the individuals and have in football; there may be particularities around institutions with which it works. We have all encountered Rangers connected with the takeover of the club by instances of individuals feeling that HMRC is not dealing Craig Whyte and the way that the club’s business has with them even-handedly. I am sure that the Minister been managed since May 2011, but Rangers are not a will want to assure us in a moment that HMRC always unique case. The root cause of the problems that football deals even-handedly with institutions and individuals. clubs, rugby clubs and other sporting institutions across However, in this instance—a case in the public eye that the length and breadth of this land are facing is to do is of such enormous importance, not only to Glasgow with the role of money and the commercialisation—the but to Scottish life in general and indeed to the commodification—of sport, whereby players and clubs representation of the UK on a wider, even global stage—I are bought, sold and traded in a global marketplace am also sure that he will want to make certain that that Governments in this country and elsewhere seem to HMRC painstakingly looks at the wider financial and have little control over, and perhaps they also have too cultural disbenefits of Rangers ever collapsing, and little insight into the financial machinations and the ensure that in collecting the tax, as it must indeed do, it rationale for the changes that happen. But if those understands that it must also make sure that that situation changes come about, especially if they come about as does not happen. 127WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 128WH

3.36 pm Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David While I appreciate the fact that the Minister cannot talk Gauke): Thank you, Mr Betts, for calling me to speak. about the specific tax structure of Rangers, can he It is a very great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship confirm whether UK Ministers, of whatever Department, this afternoon. were aware that Rangers had not paid since last May? I congratulate the hon. Member for Dunfermline and Mr Gauke: There are a couple of assumptions in the West Fife (Thomas Docherty) on securing the debate. It hon. Gentleman’s question. I was going to deal with has not been heavily attended, but it has been of good those points later, but I will do so now. First, there is an quality. It has also been wide ranging; we have heard a assumption in his question that, as has been reported, little about the history of Scottish football and we have Rangers has not paid PAYE since May. There is taxpayer had a bit of a geographical tour of a number of Scottish confidentiality and there are limits to what can be said football clubs. We have heard about a number of issues to Ministers, as well as what can be said publicly. All I relating to football in Scotland and we have also heard can say is that HMRC has assured me that in cases of from my hon. Friends the Members for Portsmouth this kind, it gives debts very close attention at all times. I North (Penny Mordaunt) and for Folkestone and Hythe would therefore be very surprised indeed if there had (Damian Collins) about issues relating to football in been no ongoing discussions or action by HMRC to England. secure payment over that time period. There is no doubt that the issue brought into focus by On the hon. Gentleman’s question about ministerial the administration of Glasgow Rangers is a significant involvement—in his speech he raised the point about one. That administration is clearly crucial to football in the involvement of Scottish Ministers as well—Ministers Scotland and, as we have heard, football in Scotland is were kept informed of significant developments such as crucial to Scotland much more broadly, including to the the timing of court proceedings, but HMRC did not various communities in which football clubs exist. seek or take advice from Ministers on how to handle The importance of football to a local community is matters that were entirely within HMRC’s responsibility. self-evident, first because it provides jobs and stimulus Equally, with regard to the Scottish Government, there to that community. We have heard about the impact were discussions. HMRC was entitled to inform the when Rangers play against St Johnstone in Perth and Scottish Minister, because there were issues relating to we all know how football can contribute to the feel-good devolved powers, and it was right that the Scottish First factor if a team is successful. Any football supporter Minister was informed. At his request, HMRC explained can testify to that, as well as testifying—to be fair—to its general policy for customers who were having difficulties the feel-bad factor when a side does badly. I speak as an paying their tax debt, and it gave him an idea of the Ipswich Town supporter who has experience of both likely time scale of its initiating administration proceedings the feel-good and the feel-bad factors. if tax debts were not paid. Although HMRC listened to Secondly, the football industry in the UK contributes representations that he wished to make, it neither sought significant sums to the Exchequer by way of PAYE, nor took advice from him or other Scottish Ministers. I national insurance and VAT. The debate about football hope that provides some clarity. and taxation obviously tends to focus on sums that have Thomas Docherty: I am grateful to the Minister; he not been paid, but it is worth pointing out that last year has been quite candid. He will probably be aware that the contribution to the Exchequer from football amounted the First Minister does not normally wait to be asked to to well over £1 billion, and clearly that money is vital to give advice, so can he tell us what advice the First the provision of public services. Minister offered without being asked? Of course, football is always in the spotlight. Recently, there seem to have been as many column inches about Mr Gauke: I do not know what advice the Scottish football clubs in the business pages as on the back First Minister provided, if indeed he provided any. I pages, and I am acutely aware of the wider impact that know that there were discussions informing him of the the administration of Glasgow Rangers football club issues, as was appropriate; for example, whether there will have on other football clubs and businesses. However, were going to be any public order issues that could be the difficulties of one business cannot mask the significant related to progress on this particular matter. There was support that the Government and HMRC have provided nothing in any way improper about a discussion with to help and support businesses across the country, the First Minister in broad terms. Similarly, I assume including football clubs, to grow and to meet their tax that the discussions with Ministers of the UK Government obligations, even when they encounter temporary difficulties. were not about specific tax information, but in the Of course, the debate has demonstrated the particular broadest of terms. and intense passion that is involved with the business of Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): I appreciate what football, but I hope that the hon. Member for Dunfermline the Minister has said about the limited nature of the and West Fife will appreciate that, due to confidentiality advice that he has been given by HMRC, given the obligations, I cannot share specific information about nature of his relationship with HMRC. Can he tell us Rangers with him. I know that he will be disappointed whether he in turn has impressed on HMRC that it with the constraints that exist for all of us, but it is needs to think of the wider financial nexus around important that HMRC protects customer confidentiality. Rangers, and of course the cultural significance of the However, I can comment on the importance that the club? It is a business, but it is not just a business. Government place on supporting businesses, whatever their size or fame, and on the position of football debt Mr Gauke: HMRC is well aware of the significance generally, and particularly at this time, on the importance of Rangers football club and its importance in Scotland. of ensuring that where public revenues are due, they are I have no doubt that HMRC is aware of that sensitivity. paid on time and in full. I am sure the hon. Gentleman is not suggesting that 129WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 130WH

Rangers should receive special treatment, but HMRC is to explore how they—the football league authorities aware of the importance of Rangers to Glasgow and to and HMRC—could work together to reduce the levels Scotland, and indeed to the UK more widely. I have no of tax debts in the football league. doubt about that. From those initial discussions emerged a working I return to the issue of the support that businesses arrangement that remains in place today. All English receive from HMRC, both generally and in respect of football league clubs consented to HMRC sharing football. Of course, facing tough conditions, many information with the football league on their payment businesses can stumble upon difficult times. That is why compliance in respect of PAYE and national insurance. HMRC invests so much time and energy to support Not only does any club that withholds those taxes face those businesses, whether they are start-ups or established decisive action by HMRC, it will also encounter sanctions large businesses, when they encounter difficulties. from the football league. I will focus on the support that is provided for the However, the issue is not always about sticks. The many thousands of businesses, large and small, through carrot is that eventually, all clubs will compete on an the time to pay arrangements, which allow them to even basis. No club should benefit over another simply spread the payment of their liabilities beyond the due because it retains taxpayers’ money to fund its operation. date. That facility took on a more prominent role in That is an absurd proposition, with which I know hon. November 2008 when the Business Payment Support Members will disagree. Service was launched. Its purpose is to provide speedy access to quick decisions from HMRC for businesses The decisive action taken by HMRC and collaboration facing short-term financial difficulties and who wish to with the football league authority has paid dividends. discuss time to pay arrangements. Similar arrangements are now in place with the Irish Many hundreds of thousands of businesses have Football Association and the football conference, which accessed the service since its launch. The time to pay is the tier immediately below the football league. arrangements have helped hundreds of thousands of In addition, some months ago HMRC met the Scottish individual taxpayers and businesses suffering short-term premier league and the Scottish football league authorities financial difficulties. This has been particularly helpful to explore whether similar arrangements could be put in during the past four years, given the economic challenges place for the top four divisions of football in Scotland. that the UK has faced. HMRC will continue to offer Further discussions are scheduled soon on that proposal. that support service where it is appropriate to do so, HMRC will meet the Scottish leagues next week to although I make it clear that the facility is not there to monitor the payment of taxes, which addresses one prop up an insolvent business whose existence is dependent of the specific points raised by the hon. Member for on not paying the taxes for which it is liable. That is why Dunfermline and West Fife. HMRC will probe deeper when a business comes back repeatedly to seek time to pay. Such repeat requests can Thomas Docherty: That was hugely informative and I indicate a more deep-rooted financial difficulty, which am sure that it will be welcomed. If only we had heard it can mean a time to pay arrangement is unlikely to be before now. the appropriate outcome. I have two specific questions. Will the Minister confirm At a time when the public finances are as they are, it that HMRC will contact all 11 other clubs to see what is crucial that businesses and individuals pay the tax assistance they require as a result of the situation with that is due. That is a point that every speaker has made Rangers? Also, can I tempt him to say a little about the this afternoon. Businesses and individuals who do not potential introduction of a bond, which I know the pay their taxes are restricting growth and getting an Treasury has previously considered, to protect HMRC, unfair advantage over those who follow the rules. The so that if a club finds itself in administration, HMRC Government are committed to levelling the playing field will have a guarantee that it will get some of its money for the compliant majority. Even as HMRC puts in back? place services to support businesses, small and large, to realise that ambition, it also expects all businesses, be they football clubs or not, to be run effectively from a Mr Gauke: I will deal with the hon. Gentleman’s tax management point of view. second point first, which he is absolutely right to raise. As reported in the media, it is true that in recent years From April 2012, HMRC will be able to seek securities some football clubs have had poor compliance records where PAYE is at risk. That mirrors existing powers for for the payment of tax liabilities. I am not talking about VAT, which are already in place. If a taxpayer does not the payment of tax on profits; I am referring to the pay the security, they will commit a criminal offence. PAYEand national insurance that the clubs have deducted There are, of course, safeguards to ensure that the from their players and other employees and the VAT power is not abused by HMRC—it is not to be used that they have charged their customers. Too often some widely—but where there is concern about repeated failure, football clubs have used those moneys, which were that is an additional tool available to HMRC. That, in never theirs, to fund their business, because they have itself, will have a deterrent effect, which I hope will be overstretched themselves in other areas. Many hon. helpful in such circumstances. Members will doubtless have views on why that situation has arisen, and why clubs so often apparently spend Pete Wishart: The Minister has mentioned some of more than they can afford. I think all hon. Members the sticks available to HMRC to secure its liabilities, but will agree that it would not be right for taxpayers to what about the carrots? What about incentivising the fund such shortfalls. clubs that meet HMRC requirements on time? I mentioned However, things have begun to change. One practical the example of my football club, St Johnstone, which way was when the previous chairman of the English has never gone into the red. Does HMRC want clubs to football league, Lord Mawhinney, approached HMRC behave and be able to balance their books on that basis? 131WH Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities)29 FEBRUARY 2012 Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) 132WH

Mr Gauke: There would be a problem with HMRC Owen Smith: Will the Minister give way? rewarding clubs for paying their taxes; after all, it should be taken as a given that businesses pay their Mr Gauke: I have provoked the hon. Gentleman. taxes. I return to my point on the work that is being Before we go too far off the topic, I will let him come in. done with the football league in England, with Lord Mawhinney, where football gets to grip with the issue, Owen Smith: I want to confirm that the Minister is and works in conjunction with HMRC to ensure that saying that there will be 10,000 further jobs going under clubs would face difficulties within the leagues if they this Government over the spending period, as well as fail to comply with their obligations. I would look at it the 4,000 job losses announced in January. that way. The first point made by the hon. Member for Mr Gauke: The working assumption is as I have said, Dunfermline and West Fife in his intervention was and as is in the public domain. The hon. Gentleman will about whether HMRC will proactively contact the 11 be aware that there is redeployment within that, so that other clubs in the Scottish premier league. Rangers there are additional staff dealing with tax evasion. going into administration is a huge event, not just for There is capability to reduce the number of staff working Rangers, but for all the other clubs in the Scottish in processing, where the use of new technology can premier league and some other clubs as well. HMRC is substantially reduce the need for manual work. conscious of that and will—I am assured—listen sympathetically to any approach where that event causes I cannot comment on the case of Rangers specifically, serious short-term financial difficulties. The onus is on but I assure the hon. Member for Dunfermline and other clubs to get in contact with HMRC if they have a West Fife that HMRC is working with the administrators, difficulty. The debt lines are open seven days a week, alongside other creditors, to reach the best solution for and there is no reason to delay discussions with HMRC, the public purse and the club. We have heard how which I know will be happy to engage with clubs if they Rangers going out of business would be a disaster for have particular issues. It is for the clubs to contact Scottish football. The purpose of administration is to HMRC, rather than for HMRC to initiate communications. save the club and to ensure that creditors get as much as I hope that I have adequately addressed the issues about possible. HMRC’s involvement, within the constraints that I and HMRC have in relation to taxpayer confidentiality, and Damian Collins: On a point of principle, does my about what communications there have been between hon. Friend agree that it is wrong, when a football club Ministers of the UK and Scottish Governments. goes into administration, for HMRC and other creditors to get paid only after all football debts have been Regarding HMRC’s capability in terms of the local settled? issues, I am assured and confident that it is deploying the right skills and the right amount of urgency to the investigation of avoidance schemes. I am also confident Mr Gauke: As we have heard in the debate, that is a that HMRC has the right skills to understand fully local matter more for the English arrangement. There is factors. The hon. Member for Pontypridd raised a point currently a court case on the issue. I have a lot of about reductions of local staff in HMRC, which he sympathy with my hon. Friend’s view. There seems to be described as having increased and accelerated under unfairness, and as I said, there is litigation on the this Government. We have debated that point once or matter. twice in recent days, including in television studios. In The debate has been valuable, and I thank the hon. 2005, the number of HMRC staff, following the merger, Member for Dunfermline and West Fife for securing was around 96,000. When this Government came into it and raising the issues. There are constraints on what office, it was 66,000. By the end of the spending review, I can say, both publicly and privately, although I will it is likely to be around 56,000. It is difficult to argue always be happy to have a discussion with the that there has been an acceleration in job reduction hon. Gentleman. However, the constraints of taxpayer under this Government, and I will happily debate how confidentially apply to me as much as anyone else, and why we have been making changes in employment so I am not given all the information. The debate has on another occasion. We are strengthening the capability been useful, and I thank the House for allowing us to for tackling evasion. hold it. 133WH 29 FEBRUARY 2012 Daniel Morgan 134WH

Daniel Morgan interfered with, and therefore took the money to his home in March 1986. He alleges that he was attacked 4pm outside his house by two masked men who took the £18,000 from him. Belmont Car Auctions then sued Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): It is Southern Investigations, which resulted in Daniel having nearly 25 years—10 March 1987—since the son of to raise £10,000 very quickly for security to the court. Isabel and the brother of Alastair, Daniel Morgan, was brutally killed by five blows of an axe to the head. The We know that two days before the murder Daniel told last blow was probably struck when he was on the a witness, Brian Crush, that he believed that Rees and ground, because the hilt was embedded in his skull. Fillery had set up the robbery and taken the money Alastair is here today representing his family to hear the themselves. Daniel also told a witness that he was Minister’s response to the family’s call for a judge-led dealing with police corruption and that he did not know inquiry into the five failed investigations into Daniel’s whom in the Met he could trust with the information. murder. All they ask is justice for Daniel. It is important that the Minister understands at the The five failed inquiries have cost the taxpayer nearly outset why the omissions of the meeting at the Golden £30 million. I believe that had the murder been investigated Lion pub and the auction robbery were so critical to the adequately a quarter of a century ago, Daniel’s killer first investigation being compromised. My source has would have been brought to justice. John Yates said: told me that omissions in the statement gathered by “This case is one of the most deplorable episodes in the entire Fillery initially prevented attention being drawn towards history of the Metropolitan Police Service.” Jonathan Rees and, indeed, Fillery himself. Alastair He went on to say that Daniel’s family had “been Morgan, Daniel’s brother, has also told me how he treated disgracefully.” I suspect that the Minister will raised his own suspicions with Fillery about Rees’s not be able to grant a judge-led inquiry today, but I possible involvement with the Belmont Car Auctions hope that he will at least keep an open mind, as the robbery as a possible motive for the murder. Alastair Home Secretary has not yet decided whether to grant had not known that Fillery had actually recommended such an inquiry, which my hon. Friend the Member for Rees to the auction company at the time. Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) has Alastair now believes that it was a mistake to trust also been campaigning for on behalf of her constituents. Fillery. He tells me that, for example, his information to I ask the Minister for one thing: please agree to ask Fillery later led to a phone call to his sister-in-law in his officials and the Metropolitan police a number of which the family were told directly by Fillery that searching questions before he and the Home Secretary Alastair should get out of London because he was make their decision. I will put those questions to him at interfering in the investigation. When Fillery was removed the end of my contribution. Daniel’s family categorically from the team, the investigation quickly focused on do not want another investigation by the Metropolitan those whom the Met believed to be responsible. Fillery, police—they have lost trust. Before I raise specific questions Rees, the two Vian brothers and two other police officers for the Minister, I will run through the events that have who were closely associated with Southern Investigations led to the five failed investigations. were arrested. However, no charges were brought and all six men were released. Investigation No. 1 was severely compromised by police corruption. For 20 years the Met failed to admit At the inquest in April 1998, Kevin Lennon, who that, despite the repeated pleas of the Morgan family. worked as a bookkeeper at Southern Investigations, Indeed, it was not until 2005 that the Met’s then gave evidence that implicated Rees in Daniel’s murder. commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, admitted that the first The Guardian newspaper reported that, in evidence to inquiry involving Detective Superintendent Sidney Fillery the hearing, Kevin Lennon said Rees wanted Morgan had been compromised. If that admission had come dead after a row. Lennon said: earlier, the subsequent inquiries might not also have “John Rees explained that, when or after Daniel Morgan had failed. been killed, he would be replaced by a friend of his who was a As part of the first investigation, it is now known that serving policeman, Detective Sergeant Sid Fillery.” DS Sid Fillery—a member of the original murder squad— Lennon also told the inquest that Rees had said to him: failed to reveal to his superiors that he had very close links with Jonathan Rees when he became part of the “I’ve got the perfect solution for Daniel’s murder. My mates at inquiry. I am told that Fillery took a statement from Catford nick are going to arrange it.” Rees, but it did not include details that both he and Lennon added: Rees had met Daniel at the Golden Lion pub the night before the murder, nor did it include details of a robbery “He (Rees) went on to explain to me that if they didn’t do it themselves the police would arrange for some person over whom of Belmont Car Auctions a year earlier. Had those they had some criminal charge pending to carry out Daniel’s details emerged at the time, they would have revealed murder”. that those incidents brought both men into direct conflict with Daniel. In the weeks before his murder, Daniel Morgan had repeatedly expressed concerns over corrupt police officers The Belmont Car Auctions story was significant because in south London. The Morgan family also believe that Jonathan Rees and Daniel had previously agreed that Daniel was about to reveal evidence of corruption. they would not deal with cash-in-transit work. Daniel is known to have been angry when Jonathan Rees took on In the aftermath of the murder and just as predicted the job of looking after the takings from the auctions, by the evidence of Kevin Lennon seven months before saying it would, “backfire on them.” Rees, who was at the inquest in 1988, Fillery took early retirement contracted to carry cash to the bank after a series of with an enhanced sick pension. Alastair Morgan has auctions, alleged that the bank night-safe had been also told me how, at the inquest, members of the Met 135WH Daniel Morgan29 FEBRUARY 2012 Daniel Morgan 136WH

[Mr Tom Watson] and three other men for the murder. My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) disputed the fact he had ever spoken with Fillery directly then refused the family’s request for a judicial inquiry. as part of the investigation. He believes that they were In 2006, a fifth investigation began under Assistant trying to cover up for Fillery. Commissioner John Yates. That happened out of the Investigation No. 2—an outside inquiry—ordered by blue after Alastair Morgan had initially approached the the then commissioner, Sir Peter Imbert, following a Metropolitan Police Authority chairman, Len Duvall. complaint by the family, was carried out by Hampshire He had ordered the commissioner to present his own police. It made no attempt whatsoever to address the report on the case before that. The family were initially allegations that Fillery had tried to get Daniel’s brother, deeply sceptical of the new Yates investigation. Alastair, out of London after he had pointed to Rees as Devastatingly, after five years, the case collapsed last a prime suspect in the murder. Had the inquiry done so, year. The Morgan family’s solicitors have said that this it might have found that what Alastair said tallied with was the allegations previously made by Kevin Lennon at the “under the weight of previous corruption”. inquest in 1988. The inquiry’s terms of reference were The accused, Jonathan Rees, Fillery and the Vian brothers to investigate were ultimately acquitted because the defence would “all aspects of police involvement arising from the death of not have had access to all the documents in the case. Daniel Morgan”. The Metropolitan police repeatedly mislaid crates of Unknown to Daniel’s family, the remit of the inquiry evidence, owing to the sheer number of documents the was secretly changed at a high-level meeting at Scotland case had generated. Mr Justice Maddison also ruled Yard in December 1988. The family further believe that that the supergrass witnesses had been mishandled. the second investigation did not address the statements I now turn to the situation that the family find made at the inquest by serving police officers in which themselves in now. Since the collapse of the prosecution, they denied that Alastair Morgan had ever raised his the Met has publicly admitted corruption in the first suspicions about Rees with Fillery, directly, as part of inquiry. The family believe this corruption had an impact investigation No. 1. on the second, third, fourth and fifth inquiries. However, what the family did not know during any of the five In addition, Mr Morgan is frustrated that he offered investigations is the extent to which the relationship to provide Hampshire police with a statement after an between News International, private investigators and initial interview, but they refused it—indeed, no further the police had an impact on the conduct of the inquiry. statement was taken until 2000. The inquiry later reported to the Police Complaints Authority that there was Jonathan Rees and Sid Fillery were at the corrupt nexus of private investigators, police officers and journalists “no evidence whatsoever of police involvement in the murder” at News of the World. Through the hacking scandal, we and that the original inquiry had been good. now know that Southern Investigations became the hub of a web of police and media contacts involving the Understandably, the Morgan family kept up their illegal theft and disclosure of information obtained campaign for justice. In November 1997, they met through Rees and Fillery’s corrupted contacts. Southern Sir Paul Condon who promised to review the case—nothing Investigations sold information to many newspapers happened until late 1998 when, under the leadership of during the 1990s, but we think exclusively to News John Stevens and Roy Clark, the Met launched a third International after Rees was released from jail in 2005. investigation into the murder. That was done without the knowledge of the Morgan family and in secrecy—not The main conduit at News International was Alex including the family was a mistake and the secrecy of Marunchak, chief crime reporter for the News of the the inquiry has deeply troubled them. The secrecy today World and later the paper’s Irish editor. I want to focus is still a major issue for the family with the Met. I hope the Minister’s attention on Marunchak in particular. that the Minister understands that he must ask why the Rees and Marunchak had a relationship that was so family were not kept informed. close that they both registered companies at the same address in Thornton Heath. Abbeycover, established by As part of investigation No. 3, a covert bug was Rees and his colleague from News International, Greg placed in the office of Southern Investigations. I will Miskiw, was registered at the same address as Southern return to that later. Yet investigation No. 3 arguably Investigations, run by Rees and Fillery. Rees’s confirmed missed its chance to use trigger events to gather further links with Marunchak take the murder of Daniel Morgan evidence on the murder. After Rees went to jail, the to a new level. Morgan family had another meeting with Roy Clark. Clark initially said that they would do another investigation. It is important to remember that, in the days before The family ruled that out, as they wanted disclosure of the murder, Daniel’s family believe that he was on the the Hampshire report first. First Clark and then Andy verge of exposing huge police corruption. That was Hayman refused to disclose the report to the family. It confirmed by Brian Madagan, Daniel’s former employer, was not until the family were forced to go to the High in a statement in May 1987, in which he said that he Court that they succeeded. The Morgans should not believed Daniel was about to sell a story to a newspaper. have had to do that. In a second, later statement, Madagan said he believed that paper to be the News of the World and the contact In the interim, the Met conducted a fourth inquiry, to be Alex Marunchak who, until recently, still worked led by Detective Chief Superintendent David Cook. for the paper. BBC Radio 4’s “Report” programme also However, the fourth investigation, which the family confirmed that it has seen evidence suggesting that, described as the first honest investigation into the murder, a week before the murder, Daniel was about to take a gathered insufficient evidence to prosecute Rees, Fillery story exposing police corruption to Mr Marunchak and 137WH Daniel Morgan29 FEBRUARY 2012 Daniel Morgan 138WH was promised a payment of £40,000. We also know, clear attempt to interfere with the murder inquiry of from the investigative reporting of Nick Davies at The Daniel Morgan. The Guardian has reported that the Guardian, that Southern Investigations paid the debts reason why no action was taken by Scotland Yard was of Alex Marunchak. not to embarrass the Met with newspapers. As part of the third failed investigation, Operation It gets worse. I would like the Minster to request to Nigeria was launched. It included the surveillance of see all the intelligence reports submitted about Alex Southern Investigations between May and September Marunchak. I believe the Met is sitting on an intelligence 1999 and was run by the Metropolitan police’s anti- report from late 2002 that claims a police contact overheard corruption squad, CIB3. It placed a bug in the offices of Marunchak claim he was paying the relatives of police Southern Investigations that yielded evidence that convicted officers in Cambridgeshire for information about the Rees for a serious and unrelated crime. Police surveillance Soham murders. As far as we know, those allegations shows frequent contact between Rees and Marunchak. have not been investigated. I do not know whether the I understand that the tapes made by the recording by intelligence reports are accurate, but I do know that the bug have not all been transcribed; if they were, they Alex Maranchek was involved in writing stories about would yield more collusion, perhaps criminal in nature, how the Manchester United tops of those young girls between News International and Jonathan Rees. I hope were found. I also believe that at least one of the Soham the Minister will ask the police if that process is under parents appears in the evidence file of Glenn Mulcaire. way. The Met police failed to investigate both leads when When Rees came out of jail, he was re-hired by the reported in 2002 and 2006. I think that Rupert Murdoch News of the World, then edited by Andy Coulson. Rees owes the Morgan family an apology, and I do not think also founded a company called Pure Energy, in which that he has made his last apology to the grieving parents Marunchak was involved. The police hold evidence to of murdered children. suggest that Rees discussed the use of Trojan devices Daniel’s family will never see his murderer brought to with his associate, Sid Fillery. He was an associate of justice—corruption at the Metropolitan police has ensure Philip Campbell Smith, who received a custodial sentence that—but the Minister has it in his power to see that on Monday for a crime related to blagging. Campbell they get an explanation of the failure. He can only do Smith is a former Army intelligence officer. I will say no that if the next investigation has their confidence. They more on Campbell Smith, because I do not want to seek a judge-led inquiry into the police’s handling of the prejudice the Operation Tuleta inquiry. However, I hope murder, because they have lost confidence in the police. that I have demonstrated to the Minister a close association In the circumstances, wouldn’t anyone? between Rees and Marunchak. This is why I think that the Metropolitan police cannot be used in any further investigations: yesterday, the Leveson inquiry heard a startling revelation that 4.21 pm Alex Marunchak—a close business associate of Jonathan The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Rees, then the prime suspect in a murder case—chose to Herbert): I congratulate the hon. Member for West put DCI David Cook and his family under close covert Bromwich East (Mr Watson) on securing this debate. I surveillance. The person who was investigating a murder am aware of his interest in this matter and the interest was put under close surveillance by a close business of other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for associate of the man he was investigating. That was Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry). raised with Rebekah Brooks in 2002, the then editor of the News of the World. I would like the Minister The Home Secretary and the Government believe to imagine what his response would have been to that that this is a matter of the utmost seriousness, concerning information. A journalist employee tried to undermine an horrific murder exacerbated by a failure to see those the murder investigation of his close associate. Rupert responsible held to account. The Home Secretary is Murdoch claims that News International takes a zero- taking a personal and active interest in this issue. She tolerance approach to wrongdoing. However, far from met Daniel Morgan’s family and representatives in launching a wide-scale inquiry to investigate wrongdoing, December last year and listened carefully to what the Rebekah Brooks promoted Alex Marunchak to the family had to say to her. She committed to reflect on editor’s job at the News of the World in Ireland. what she had heard at that meeting and to look into the matters further. At the time, she also made it clear that It gets worse. Last year, Mr Cook’s then wife, Jacqui we do not rule out anything when considering the next Hames, discovered that her records appeared in the steps. She has since spoken to Bernard Hogan-Howe, evidence file of Glenn Mulcaire. The records show the Metropolitan Police Commissioner. information that she believes could only have been obtained from her private police records. While DCI There is no doubt that the case of the murder of Cook was investigating a murder, his colleagues in Daniel Morgan has not been handled properly by the another part of the Met were in receipt of evidence that authorities over the years. Although no murder investigation a close associate of his suspect was illegally targeting is ever really closed without the perpetrators being him. Did Andy Hayman, the then head of the hacking brought to justice, the fact is that 25 years on Daniel’s inquiry, who also happened to be in charge of the murderer remains unconvicted. There has been a failed fourth investigation into Daniel’s murder, ensure that trial and justice has not been done, or seen to be done. his colleague was informed about this? No. When Andy Tim Godwin, as acting commissioner at the time, has Hayman retired early from the Met, he became a paid apologised for the repeated failure by the Metropolitan contributor for News International—that is not right. Police Service and accepted that For months, Scotland Yard took no action. Why not? “corruption had played such a significant part in failing to bring Why was it not willing to pursue what appears to be a those responsible to justice.” 139WH Daniel Morgan29 FEBRUARY 2012 Daniel Morgan 140WH

[Nick Herbert] review is focusing specifically on the methodology, decisions and tactics adopted by the prosecution team, including I am sure that hon. Members will agree that none of any omissions in relation to disclosure and the use of us can ever begin to comprehend the suffering that the the assisting offender provisions in the Serious Organised Morgan family has endured over the past years. Our Crime and Police Act 2005. I realise that this review will sympathies are with them. not answer all the issues that might be raised in a Whatever happens now, the Government, the police judicial inquiry, which remains the Morgan family’s and the authorities must do all we can, not just to bring preferred outcome. However, it might have a bearing on the murderers of Daniel Morgan to justice, if at all how we could frame any judicial inquiry, should that be possible, but—crucially—to ensure that the wider issues the way forward. It would also help the MPS and the to do with police corruption are identified and addressed. CPS consider what options would be available to them, The Metropolitan Police Commissioner has given his were they to look to prosecute those responsible in personal assurance to the Home Secretary that he is future. This report has been much delayed, partly because committed to achieving these ends. That is why he has the MPS and the CPS have been considering the forensics appointed Assistant Commissioner Cressida Dick aspects, but I understand that it will be completed personally to oversee all aspects of the Morgan case. shortly. The MPS has offered to brief the family and She is, as hon. Members will be aware, a senior police their representatives on the findings. officer who is currently the assistant commissioner of Jacqui Hames’s evidence to the Leveson inquiry has specialist operations, and she comes to the case and the brought these issues into even sharper focus this week. issues it raises with fresh eyes. It is important to note That inquiry has now turned from considering press that she has no previous involvement with the case. practices alone to focusing on the relationship between The MPS has also started looking at a full forensic the press and the police, whether those relations were review, which, as hon. Members will recall, was an inappropriate or indeed corrupt, and what bearing they important factor in the successful prosecutions in the might have on how the police conducted their investigations Stephen Lawrence case. The MPS is considering seeking into phone hacking. advice from independent counsel on what options are The detailed investigation of specific cases, such as available to it to enable successful prosecutions, in light the Morgan case, might be considered to be more a of the failed trial last year. matter for this second part of the inquiry, although it is Ongoing investigations are relevant, including Operation clearly a matter for Lord Justice Leveson himself to Weeting and Operation Tuleta, being led by Deputy decide how far he wants to investigate specific cases, Assistant Commissioner Sue Akers of the MPS, who, such as this part of the inquiry. following her evidence to the Home Affairs Committee Given all this ongoing work, it is important to consider in July last year, again gave a clear account to the what options are now available to identify and address Leveson inquiry earlier this week. Both Operation Weeting, police corruption and bring those responsible for Daniel’s which is looking at the interception of mobile phone murder to justice. As I have mentioned, the Morgan messages by journalists and their associates, and Operation family has called for a judicial inquiry and this call has Tuleta, which is considering the numerous historical been endorsed by the Metropolitan Police Authority. operations that have some bearing on this matter, are However, such an inquiry is unlikely to be quick—a key ongoing. We must let those investigations run their concern for Daniel Morgan’s mother—and it cannot course, as they have a bearing on the issues raised in the directly lead to prosecutions. Any such prosecutions Morgan case. For example, Deputy Assistant Commissioner based on what the inquiry may unearth would need to Akers will be looking at the circumstances surrounding follow further police investigations. I recognise that this the surveillance by News of the World journalists of would satisfy the Morgan family’s demands and we are David Cook, the former senior investigating officer in considering carefully whether this is the right way forward. the murder inquiry. I take seriously these allegations, The Home Secretary and I have not ruled out ordering repeated in the evidence of Jacqui Hames to the Leveson a judicial inquiry at this stage. The Home Secretary inquiry yesterday. wrote to the Morgan family’s solicitors yesterday and I appreciate the concerns of Daniel Morgan’s family will do so again shortly with her decision on the way about further investigation by the police. However, I do forward. not believe that the police service is incapable of investigating Any decision will need to take into account whether itself. The investigations led by DAC Akers have led to the MPS might invite another police force to conduct a the arrests of police officers. There are many examples police investigation, particularly focusing on the allegations of corrupt and criminal officers having been removed of corruption in this case. There may yet be value in this from their force and brought to justice. In addition, the course, involving officers with no connection to the Independent Police Complaints Commission is a robust, MPS investigating allegations of police corruption, because independent body that can always oversee on referral or even now aspects of the alleged corruption have not call in any such investigation. So there are strong checks been properly investigated. The MPS has not ruled out and balances over the police in such matters, too. this option. Hon. Members will note that the Home Secretary has Were such an investigation to proceed, any judicial recently appointed Dame Anne Owers as the new chair inquiry would be limited in what work it could do of the IPCC. Dame Anne, former chief inspector of alongside these investigations. An alternative might be prisons, has a formidable public reputation, not only as for the Government to ask a Queen’s counsel to supervise an expert in criminal justice matters, but for her integrity the investigation of the corruption aspects of the Morgan and independence from the Government. case, again by an outside force, involving police officers The MPS and the Crown Prosecution Service are with no connection to the MPS. This option would jointly reviewing the reasons for the collapse of last most likely be quicker, with a QC providing the integrity year’s trial of five suspects relating to this case. This and independence required. 141WH Daniel Morgan 29 FEBRUARY 2012 142WH

In conclusion, I reiterate the Government’s commitment South West Marine Energy Park to seeing that all that can be done is done to bring justice for Daniel Morgan and his family. Similarly, the MPS is also fully committed to seeing that justice is 4.30 pm done. The Home Secretary continues to take a personal George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): It is and active interest in this matter. The hon. Gentleman a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for this asked that we remain open-minded about this matter. I debate, Mr Betts. assure him that we do. I am committed, as he is, to Looking back through some of my notes, I was making sure that we get to the bottom of this matter, in reminded that a little more than a year ago, on 15 February one way or another. 2011, we were last in this Chamber to discuss marine energy in the south-west, in particular in Cornwall. I am pleased that quite a lot of progress has been made over the past 12 months. In my speech last year, I referred to the renewable obligations certificate and how in Cornwall we needed to be given five ROCs, as Scotland has, and I am delighted that the Government have made some strong moves in that direction. We talked about the importance of focusing on and joining up the infrastructure in the south-west, and the decision to have a marine energy park in the south-west brings some of those ambitions to fruition. We talked about the importance of funding to bridge the risk and potential for wave-power projects, and a number of device developers have benefited from some Government support to establish their devices. A great deal has been achieved, therefore, although I was reminded that it has happened not only in the past 12 months. In the summer of 2009, we talked about the potential for a marine energy park in Cornwall, when the Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), then the shadow Minister, first came down to Cornwall, to the Tremough university campus. I was talking to someone in Cornwall recently who said, “Are you doing this then? When you said that, we thought it was only a story. We didn’t think it was actually going to be done.” So it is good to see that, in this Parliament, the Minister is delivering what he said, and we welcome that. My constituency is home to the Wave Hub project, which is the central element of the new marine energy park. It is the first test facility of its type in the world, and it enables us to test commercial-scale arrays of marine energy devices. The smaller FaBTest project in Falmouth bay is linked, and the two facilities are at the heart of the marine energy park, so I have a direct interest in seeing it work. The facilities are supported by a strong supply chain in Devon and Cornwall, a strong university at Plymouth, which does a lot on marine biology, and the academics at the university of Exeter and the Camborne school of mines down at Tremough, which is doing a tremendous amount of work on researching moorings and other issues. Since our debate a year ago, two device developers have signed agreements to plug into the Wave Hub facility off Hayle: Ocean Power Technologies, with Government support, is developing a device that we hope will deploy next year; and later this year a new entrant, Ocean Energy, hopes to deploy its device. Before I move on to the main thrust of my comments, I want to talk about the marine renewables deployment fund and its importance. The Minister has already suggested that he anticipates that about half the £20 million set aside by the Department to encourage green energy will go to wave power. In response to a recent question that I asked, he said that he expected a significant sum 143WH South West Marine Energy Park29 FEBRUARY 2012 South West Marine Energy Park 144WH

[George Eustice] that the Government and their agencies can do is to get on and make things as easy as possible for them as they to come down towards my part of the world, which I develop those pioneering ideas. I completely agree with welcome. I understand the reluctance to commit in a her point. rigid way, because the Department wants to keep its options open. With a number of people asking what the marine energy park delivers, however, an important Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I thank the hon. principle to establish is that projects in such a park Gentleman for bringing the matter before the House should at least be given some priority treatment in today. In my constituency of Strangford—in particular, attracting funds to develop the deployment of marine with SeaGen at Portaferry—there have been successful devices. Wave Hub still has two berths left on its device, trials of harnessing wave and tidal movement at the and we are anxious to attract additional device developers. narrows of Strangford lough. Does he agree that there could be an exchange of information from different Another area that will be equally if not more important regions in the United Kingdom? In this case, what we to the success of the marine energy park is removing have learned in Northern Ireland might be of advantage some of the barriers that currently confront developers. to those in England. That has always been one of the key issues that we wanted to see dealt with in a marine energy park. How can we simplify the consenting process? How can we George Eustice: Indeed. The more we join up such make consultation less onerous than, frankly, it is? In academic research, the better. I know that EMEC—the doing so, we need to consult closely with the Minister’s European Marine Energy Centre—in Scotland worked colleagues in the Department for Environment, Food closely with our academics at Tremough. I would be and Rural Affairs, because a lot of the decision making delighted to see us also working with academics in is by the Marine Management Organisation. The Crown Northern Ireland, to ensure that we learn the lessons Estate also has quite a big role to play. I want to argue that they have learned. that we should learn lessons from other countries in the Another area in which there is a big difference between world—in particular, Norway, which has a fantastic Norway and the United Kingdom is consultation, which track record in adopting a pragmatic approach to device is onerous in the UK. The process in the UK is clearly developers and not standing in their way.A few comparisons defined, first a pre-screening consultation with the MMO of what we do for marine device developers in the UK and then a formal environmental assessment, which is and the approach in Norway might be useful. the screening and scoping element. After that there is First, on the application process, in the UK a developer all the documentation preparation, with a series of has to apply to the MMO for all construction, all environmental statements, and only then the formal alteration or any improvement of any works affecting application, which is followed by a whole bout of the sea bed. That includes all renewable energy projects, consultation, feedback and mediations to adjust things. unless they are huge and much larger than what we Only then can there be a licence determination, after would be talking about in marine energy at this stage. which there is a wait for the licence to be issued, which Compare that with Norway, where simply the local may cause problems and take time. Then, there are municipal authority or, in some cases, the regional management returns and monitoring reports, and finally coastal authority makes such decisions. the process of decommissioning and proving compliance. On leases, in the UK developers need to get a lease The consultation procedure is very complicated. for the sea bed for any fixed structures, including any Let us compare the procedure with that in Norway, anchors, even before they can deploy a test device. which takes a much more pragmatic approach. The Leases are always needed from the Crown Estate, and handling authority may choose to consult with other they are negotiated on commercial terms. Compare that bodies, such as fisheries organisations or harbour with Norway, which has no specific need for a sea bed authorities, but the consultation is loose, pragmatic and lease—in particular, for small test devices—and a much sensible. Typically, it takes no more than four weeks. On more pragmatic approach is taken. Devices with temporary the environmental assessment here, the MMO must anchorage or deployment are deemed to have a low-risk decide in every case whether there should be an assessment, impact, so there is no need for a sea bed lease, which is a whereas in Norway there are formal environmental considerable cost saving. assessments only for pre-defined and designated environmentally sensitive areas. In all other cases, self- Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Does my hon. assessment is generally the guiding principle. Here, the Friend accept the importance of the marine energy Crown Estate frequently insists on onerous requirements park to companies in our west country constituencies, for insurance for decommissioning, but there are no certainly in my constituency? The Searaser device, invented such formal requirements in Norway. There are no by Alvin Smith who lives in Dartmouth, is being developed application fees in Norway, where the process is completely locally, so there are huge implications for him. He is free because it has maintained a light-touch system. pleased to have a marine energy park that he can use for What happens here in the United Kingdom? Two sea trials. hours of free pre-application advice is the most that is available, and after that advice is charged at £80 a hour George Eustice: I certainly agree. I hope to achieve in to device developers. An application typically costs the debate some progress on what we want the marine from £7,200, which is a huge additional cost. There is energy park to deliver. My hon. Friend is right that such also a time implication. In the UK, an application to marine energy developers are taking considerable risks. deploy might typically take nine months, compared They are pioneers of the industry and are expected to with just one month, or three months at the outside, invest large sums of money in development. The least in Norway. 145WH South West Marine Energy Park29 FEBRUARY 2012 South West Marine Energy Park 146WH

We can learn a lot from Norway. Clearly, we have power, and his constituency is home to the ground-breaking different structures here. We have the MMO, with which Wave Hub testing facility for wave energy devices, which we must work. I want to spend a few minutes reflecting remains an important vital component of the South on how to incorporate into our approach some of the West Marine Energy Park. lessons from Norway. First, could we not require the I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes test facility operator to be responsible for deploying test (Dr Wollaston) for her comments and interest, and the devices within its test facility? The important point is real and growing interest in her constituency. I also that there is a lot of duplication. Wave Hub and FaBTest commend the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) have had to go through the onerous screening, scoping for his comments; I look forward to visiting Northern and consultation processes. If someone wants to deploy Ireland to see for myself the huge potential for marine a device on that test facility, they must go through the energy, and some of the exciting developments there. same process again. There is a lot of duplication, and giving authority to test facility operators would be equivalent the equivalent in Norway of giving Jim Shannon: The Assembly in Northern Ireland, harbourmasters greater control. which has devolved responsibility for this matter, has Secondly, can we simplify the consultation process just concluded legislation on marine technology, so it within the test areas, given that they have been through might be possible to take advantage of that, because huge amounts of consultation and screening? Let us people will be eager to tell the Minister what we have remove the need for the screening and scoping stage done. because, again, it duplicates work that has already been done. The estimates suggest that, if just that element were removed, three months would be chopped off the Gregory Barker: I look forward to opening the post. application time. If the Norwegian authorities can agree During the next few minutes I will endeavour to answer the deployment of these devices in just a month, or in detail the points that my hon. Friend the Member for three months at the outside, let us set a more stretching Camborne and Redruth made. He gave a serious critique and challenging time scale for the MMO? Let us not of the progress we are making, and the progress that we allow it to sit on projects, letting them stew for months could make if we improved further the marine energy on end, and allowing matters to drag on for nine park and the processes underlying it. If I am unable to months. Let us tell it that we expect it to deliver within a give an immediate response, I will write to him, and I month or two months. will study and reflect on his important points and examples. He is an important voice on this agenda, and Finally, we must enable the MMO to exercise more I assure him that we take it seriously. judgment, particularly on minor alterations to deployment. Sometimes, when a device developer is ready to deploy, Alongside the other UK marine energy testing facilities it may decide that it needs to change a small aspect of at EMEC in the Orkneys, and the marine drive train its deployment. At the moment, it must go back to testing facility that is opening in the spring at the square one and go through the complicated consultation National Renewable Energy Centre—NaREC—in the procedure again. The MMO must then consult with north-east of England, Wave Hub helps to give Britain other people again, even when that is unnecessary because a unique offer to this emerging sector not just in the the suggested change is quite small. The ability to close British Isles, but globally. Here in the UK, we continue out consent conditions would be more sensible, and the to be a global focus for an important long-term global MMO could exercise judgment without necessarily having industry. It is vital to maintain that competitive advantage, to return to the statutory consultees over and again. given the significant and increasing interest in other Those are technical points, but if we are to make the parts of the world. I am constantly looking at how to marine energy park work, a key component is dismantling push forward that agenda in partnership with the industry. the barriers that stand in the way of marine energy Combining the world-beating testing infrastructure developers. They take tremendous risks to pioneer an that we have in the UK, particularly in the south-west, industry. Sometimes, they invest tens of millions of with world-class academic expertise, and the funding pounds to develop the technology. The very least that stream for marine energy, which I will talk about briefly, the Government can do is to make sure that Government- the coalition has created in the UK the most attractive controlled agencies get off people’s backs and allow environment for developing marine energy. It is still a them to get ahead and to make a success of the industry. nascent industry, but we believe that it is now the most encouraging environment anywhere in the world, and I 4.45 pm am very proud of that. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Before I say anything about today’s topic, let me use Climate Change (Gregory Barker): I congratulate my this opportunity to welcome the report from the Select hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth Committee on Energy and Climate Change on “The (George Eustice) on yet again securing a debate. He is Future of Marine Renewables in the UK”, which was an extraordinary champion of marine power in the published last week. It underlines the great potential south-west. It is no discourtesy to any of his colleagues benefits that development of a thriving marine energy in the region to say that he has undoubtedly been the sector can bring to the UK, and recognises the coalition’s most tenacious champion over a number years, and work to support development of the sector. When I preceding his time in the House, in encouraging the spoke to the Committee last year, I underlined the formation of marine energy parks, and driving in the Government’s determination to grow a thriving marine Conservative party an ambitious transformational approach sector, building on Britain’s wealth of experience and to harnessing the power of the sea. He previously expertise. We will carefully review the report and respond secured a Westminster Hall debate on funding for wave to its recommendations in due course. 147WH South West Marine Energy Park29 FEBRUARY 2012 South West Marine Energy Park 148WH

[Gregory Barker] revenue support for wave and tidal stream to five renewables obligation certificates per megawatt, subject to a 30MW I appreciate the concerns voiced by my hon. Friend. project cap. He has been a champion of this agenda in the past and The consultation on the proposed banding is now it is right to listen to his concerns and take them closed, and although I am obviously unable to prejudge seriously. I assure him that the Government are fully the final outcome of the review, the work will stand us committed to maximising the benefits that the wave and in good stead when reaching the right decision about tidal sectors can deliver. That commitment is explicitly the level of ROCs needed to take the sector through to underlined in the coalition agreement, and I am committed early commercial-scale deployment. The Government’s to ensuring that it is delivered. response to the consultation will be published in spring. I want to know if there are inefficiencies in the Our work with the sector through the programme system, and I always look with interest at other models board has demonstrated that as well as revenue support, from abroad, or at best practice wherever it is found, to the sector needs capital investment if it is to move see how that can help to improve the design of our towards commercialisation. I therefore announced last emerging marine economy. That is why I established the June that following the success of the £22 million marine marine energy programme board, which brings together renewables proving fund, the Department of Energy the Government, regulators and the marine energy sector. and Climate Change has also allocated up to £20 million The programme is a vehicle to drive through ambitious for the development of pre-commercial wave and tidal changes that will enable marine energy to prosper, including arrays. I remind hon. Members that that funding represents by streamlining the leasing and licensing processes. The a significant proportion of the overall DECC innovation network of marine energy parks that we are creating funding allocated for the spending period at a time of around the UK will be another vital tool for driving severe retrenchment and austerity, so it is a good outcome home success on the ground. for the sector. Last month, I was delighted to be invited to visit the My officials have been working with the sector on south-west and launch the first marine energy park, designing the marine energy array demonstrator fund, which received widespread positive coverage in the press. or MEAD. The overall framework of the scheme is As hon. Members may know, marine energy parks are nearing completion, and we envisage that it will be open central to the Government’s goal to transform prospects for applications this spring. More recently, there has for the sector, and they are something that I championed been a welcome announcement of additional funding both in government and opposition. from the Scottish Government. It is important, however, Although wave and tidal technologies are very different, that that funding complements the support already put the clustering of activities through marine energy parks in place by DECC, the Energy Technologies Institute, can help to drive the required innovation and growth in the Technology Strategy Board and others, as well as the sector, in a way that is not dissimilar to what the opportunities presented by the EU new entrants clustering in silicon valley did, and continues to do, for reserve. My officials are working with their Scottish the IT industry. Last year, I challenged the south-west Government counterparts to ensure that funding is to develop the UK’s first marine energy park. The complementary, used effectively, and offers best value expertise in the south-west, and the region’s commitment for money. However, the success of the industry does to developing wave and tidal energy, meant that it was not rest solely on financial support. among the first to successfully create such a park. I We have also made progress on planning and consents—a commend the south-west, and in particular its MPs point close to my hon. Friend’s heart. In particular, who have been driving the agenda, on the dedication DECC completed the offshore energy strategic and willingness that has been shown in delivering this environmental assessment for wave and tidal energy in outstanding work, and on everything that has been English and Welsh waters last year. The SEA complements done to turn the vision into reality. It is gratifying to see the existing work for Scotland, Northern Ireland and that the south-west is already using the marine energy the Severn estuary, and opens up suitable sites across park as a way of fostering co-operation and collaboration the UK for consideration concerning the potential between sector players in a co-ordinated action to maximise deployment of marine energy devices. opportunities open to the region, whether by encouraging My hon. Friend raised concerns about the Crown investment or by maximising access to funds at Westminster Estate, and I will take them on board when I further or even European level. consider his remarks. We should not, however, overlook I touched earlier on the marine energy programme. the work that the Crown Estate is doing with the sector Working with key industry and Government stakeholders to enable commercial-scale deployment. At the end of on the programme board, we can focus on the real last year, the Crown Estate launched a tidal stream issues facing the sector and show the leadership that is leasing round in Northern Ireland, which followed the needed to tackle the barriers that impede development, success of the world’s first commercial-scale wave and and drive the sector forward. I am not complacent tidal leasing round, in which the Crown Estate leased about the need to remove more barriers and create a 11 sites in Scotland’s Pentland firth and Orkney waters, glide path to deployment, which is why I take my hon. which could extend to 1.6 GW of capacity. Friend’s points so seriously. Work is already under way to consider how the One of the first major tasks to which the marine practicalities of sea-bed leasing can be best approached. energy programme board contributed was the review of Later this year, the Crown Estate plans to run a consultation the renewables obligation banding. The evidence that with industry on future wave and tidal leasing, which members of the board fed into the review through the will be informed by work that it is undertaking to board’s finance working group was invaluable, and led clarify the size and distribution of wave and tidal energy to the consultation proposal for enhanced levels of resources across the UK. Leasing for small test deployments 149WH South West Marine Energy Park29 FEBRUARY 2012 South West Marine Energy Park 150WH is currently dealt with case by case through a newly set Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and up fast-track process. Such deployments should not be Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon) and me to thrash out subjected to the same complexity of process as larger, the detail of some of these problems, which he could commercial-scale deployment, and I would be keen to then feed into the programme board? hear whether that is the experience of stakeholders. On licensing and planning, we need to build on the Gregory Barker: That sounds like an excellent idea. work that has already started in Scotland to ensure that Obviously, I cannot commit my hon. Friend the Under- a coherent and efficient system of planning and consenting Secretary of State to that, but he is an amenable chap is adopted across the UK. I have asked the Marine and I am sure that, subject to our diaries, we can work Management Organisation, and Marine Scotland, to something out. work with the sector to look at ways of ensuring that We have achieved a lot since our last debate on wave the licensing process is as efficient as possible, while energy, but I recognise that there is much more to be maintaining the necessary level of protection for the done and we do not intend to rest on our laurels. Over environment. the coming months, the Government will continue to The Department for Environment, Food and Rural work on a number of priority areas. It is important Affairs is reviewing the implementation of the birds and to ensure a place for marine energy within electricity habitats directives, which are important environmental market reform proposals, and the next meeting of the directives that affect the renewable energy sector. The marine energy programme board will be in Scotland in views of the offshore renewables sector are being fed the summer. There is a lot more to do, but the Government into the review, so that the right balance between efficient have a lot of ambition. I am grateful to my hon. Friend deployment of marine energy and the safeguard of our for his continued enthusiasm and support for this exciting marine habitat can be struck. I will, however, take on agenda. board my hon. Friend’s comments about Norway. Question put and agreed to.

George Eustice: At the start of my speech I noted that the issue also involves DEFRA. Would the Minister be 4.59 pm willing to meet the chief executive of Wave Hub, the Sitting adjourned.

31WS Written Ministerial Statements29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS Written Ministerial DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER

Statements Electoral Registration (Annual Canvass 2012)

Wednesday 29 February 2012 The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper): Elections for Police and Crime Commissioners (PCC) and potentially for elected mayors in the larger BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS English cities will take place on 15 November this year. These will fall in the period in which the annual canvass English for Speakers of Other Languages of electors normally takes place and, as such, raise a number of issues including concerns about the quality The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong of the register available for the elections and the increased Learning (Mr John Hayes): Together with my hon. burden on electoral administrators of conducting a Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Communities canvass at the same time as preparing for an election. and Local Government, the Member for Hazel Grove The Government have worked closely with the Association (Andrew Stunell), I would like to update the House of Electoral Administrators, the Electoral Commission following my statement I made on 18 July 2011, Official and others to consider the options for addressing these Report, columns 59-60WS, on the provision of English concerns. for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) training. To better accommodate these elections, I am directing The written statement of 18 July 2011 stated that the Electoral Registration Officers (EROs) to commence Department for Business, Innovation and Skills would and conclude this year’s canvass earlier than would work with the Department for Communities and Local normally be the case in the areas where PCC elections Government to consider additional ESOL provision are taking place (England and Wales excluding London). for learners with no, or extremely poor, levels of spoken Following a positive recommendation from the Electoral English, who are not in or currently actively seeking Commission on 21 February under section 8(1) of the employment, and are unable to afford course fees. Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, We are therefore pleased that the Secretary of State I am issuing a direction today to all relevant EROs for Communities and Local Government will make pursuant to section 52(1) of the Representation of the available up to £10 million in the 2011-12 academic year People Act 1983. to support this additional English language training. This will be a one-off approach for this year and the Funding is now being offered to further education canvass in Scotland and in London will be unaffected. colleges and training providers in areas facing significant This is the best option available to provide for consistency integration challenges to support the delivery of English for the PCC elections and certainty for all involved. language training. The Government’s clear aim is to ensure well-run As set out in “Creating the Conditions for Integration”, elections and a successful annual canvass. Requiring the published on 21 February, we believe that being able to canvass to start earlier will ensure that there is sufficient communicate in English is vital for an individual’s time for EROs to carry out the full range of canvassing personal advancement, and central to creating strong activities, consistent with their statutory duty to take all and integrated communities. necessary steps to maintain complete and accurate registers. The Electoral Commission has developed specific guidance for electoral administrators on the practical implementation DEFENCE of the direction to supplement its existing good practice guidance on the annual canvass process. Police and Guarding Agency I am placing a copy of the direction in the Libraries of both Houses. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan): As part of the programme of work associated with defence reform within the Ministry of Defence, the Ministry of Defence Police and Guarding FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Agency (MDPGA) will cease to have the status of an Executive agency from 1 April 2012. The Ministry of Defence police (MDP) has been an Hong Kong (Sino-British Declaration) agency under the then Government’s “Next Steps”regime since 1996. The MDP were subsequently combined with the MGS to become the MDPGA in April 2004. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth The separate elements of the MDP and the MGS will Affairs (Mr William Hague): The latest report on the continue within MOD’s organisational structure, albeit implementation of the Sino-British Joint Declaration collocated and under the command of Chief Constable on Hong Kong has been laid before Parliament and will MDP. be published today. A copy of the report is also available The change in operating status will have no impact on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website on the MDPGA’s customers, and will contribute some (www.fco.gov.uk). The report covers the period from £140,000 towards MOD and National Audit Office 1 July to 31 December 2011. I commend the report to accounts and administration savings. the House. 33WS Written Ministerial Statements29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

HEALTH Until now, settlement has been a virtually automatic consequence of five years’ residence in the UK as a skilled worker. Those who have settled have tended to Winterbourne View be less well paid and lower-skilled than those who have not. And the volumes of migrant workers settling have reached record levels in recent years. In 1997, there were The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul fewer than 10,000 migrant workers and their dependants Burstow): I promised to update the House about ongoing were granted settlement, but by 2010 this had risen to activity in relation to Winterbourne View private hospital 84,000. So in future, we will exercise control to ensure and other services for people with learning disabilities. that only the brightest and best remain permanently. The House will wish to note that 11 people employed Following advice commissioned from the independent at Winterbourne View appeared in Bristol Crown court Migration Advisory Committee, we will apply a minimum on 9 February. Three people have pleaded guilty and pay threshold to skilled workers in the tier 2 (General) have been referred for sentencing reports. A further and tier 2 (Sportsperson) routes who want to settle. The eight people are due back in court on 16 March. threshold will be £35,000 per annum. In order to settle, The Care Quality Commission (CQC) has now a worker must be paid at that threshold or at the completed their focussed inspections of 150 services for appropriate rate for the job as specified in codes of people with learning disabilities. The reports from these practice published by the UK Border Agency, whichever inspections are being published in batches and a further is higher. The £35,000 figure reflects the median pay of 20 reports are being published today. They can be found UK workers in tier 2 level jobs. at: www.cqc.org.uk/LDReports?latest. To provide flexibility where there are skills shortages 67 inspection reports have been published so far. in the domestic labour market, we will waive the £35,000 These reports have found poor practice in some of the threshold for migrants who are being sponsored to do units and some major concerns. jobs which are on the shortage occupation list, or have Where the CQC has identified concerns, the provider appeared on the shortage occupation list at a time while is required to inform CQC when its improvement actions the migrant has been sponsored to do that job. Similarly, have been completed. CQC will follow up to check that to help maintain the UK’s position as a hub for the the improvements have been made, including further world’s best scientists and researchers, we will not apply inspections where necessary. the threshold to those scientists and researchers, who are in specified “PhD level” jobs. However, as now, We have written to NHS and local authority chief these settlement applicants will need to be paid the executives to ensure that they are continuing to take appropriate rate for their job, as set out in the UK action required to address any concerns raised; and Border Agency codes of practice. review their own commissioning, care planning and oversight arrangements to support improvements. We will apply the new settlement pay threshold to tier 2 migrants applying for settlement from April 2016. To We will continue to look for ways to drive up standards provide certainty for migrants and employers, we will across health and care for people with learning disabilities. hold the threshold at £35,000 until April 2018. We will The results of the CQC inspections programme will confirm the threshold for 2018-19 next year and review feed into the wider departmental review of Winterbourne it annually thereafter. View, together with the reports from the serious case review and the NHS serious untoward incident review, Tier 2 is intended to provide a solution to temporary and evidence from other investigations and reports. skills gaps in the domestic labour market. So in future, temporary leave as a skilled worker will be limited to a The departmental review is continuing to engage maximum stay of six years and tier 2 migrants who with people with learning disabilities or autism and leave the UK will need to wait 12 months after the challenging behaviour and their families about how expiry of their leave before they may reapply to return services can be improved. Ministers will report findings under tier 2. At a time of high unemployment, we owe it from the departmental review to Parliament and determine to British workers to ensure that our migration system what further action is necessary. does not perpetuate reliance on migrant labour. I will continue to update the House as things develop. We intend to leave the settlement rules for tier 1 migrants unchanged. These arrangements, for investors, entrepreneurs and those of exceptional talent, were put in place as recently as 2011 and are consistent with HOME DEPARTMENT welcoming the high value individuals the UK needs to drive economic growth. Immigration The predominant message from the consultation was that employers wanted a settlement system that provided certainty, simplicity and flexibility. These measures will The Secretary of State for the Home Department deliver that. (Mrs Theresa May): In June last year, I published a Turning to the overseas domestic worker (ODW) consultation document on employment-related settlement, routes, we will introduce changes to align these categories tier 5 of the points-based system and overseas domestic with our wider migration policy. At a time when we are workers. That document set out proposals to break the reserving settlement for the brightest and best and automatic link between coming to the UK and settling moving towards a more selective system in general, it is here permanently, and to reform the other routes. Today, not right that domestic worker routes should lead to I am setting out our plans following the consultation. settlement in the UK. In 2011, 16,430 visas were issued 35WS Written Ministerial Statements29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS to ODWs in private households, including dependants, entertainers giving one-off or a very short series of and 1,280 grants of settlement were made to ODWs performances and sportspeople undertaking broadcasting and their dependants. So we shall reform the rules as work. They will have to demonstrate they intend to follows. leave the UK after a month. ODWs in private households will only be permitted We have already overhauled much of the immigration to accompany and work for visitors. They must leave system since May 2010. We have closed the old tier 1 the UK with the visitor, after a maximum of six months. general route that allowed migrants to come here without They may not extend their stay, switch employer, sponsor a job and replaced it with reformed routes for entrepreneurs dependants or settle here. ODWs in diplomatic households and investors and a new route for those of exceptional will be able to remain for the diplomat’s duration of talent—the people the UK really needs. We have limited stay, up to a maximum of five years. They may not the number of skilled workers who can enter through switch employer or settle but may be accompanied by tier 2 to fill specific vacancies; tightened the skills and their dependants. language requirements and introduced new rules on We recognise that the ODW routes can at times result intra-company transfers. We have refocused the student in the import of abusive employer/employee relationships visa system so that only high-quality, genuine students to the UK. It is important that those who use these can come to the UK and we continue to tighten the routes to bring their staff here understand what is and is rules. A statement of intent published on 13 February not acceptable. So we will be strengthening pre-entry sets out how changes to the student rules, which were measures to ensure that domestic workers and their announced to the House last March and which are due employers understand their respective rights and to come into effect from April, will operate. We have a responsibilities. Key to this will be written terms and clear goal: to reduce net migration to sustainable levels conditions of employment that are agreed by both and to build an immigration system that is smarter, employee and employer. But the biggest protection for more selective and more responsive. these workers will be delivered by limiting access to the The changes already made are starting to deliver UK through these routes. We are restoring them to their results. The policies described in this statement represent original purpose—to allow visitors and diplomats to be the next phase in our programme of immigration reform. accompanied by their domestic staff—not to provide Taken together, they form a balanced package of measures permanent access to the UK for unskilled workers. that will contribute to reducing net migration and delivering Tier 5 of the points-based system caters for people a sustainable, selective immigration system. They will coming to the UK for temporary, primarily non-economic break the link between coming to work and settling purposes. The consultation revealed that the routes in permanently helping to ensure that we remain in control tier 5 are too diverse to adopt blanket rules, for example of who comes and who stays. on length of leave, ability to sponsor dependants and Today, I shall publish a statement of intent on the skills requirements. However, there will be some tightening Home Office and UKBA websites setting out in more of the current provisions. Internships and work experience detail the measures that I have announced to the House type schemes within the Government authorised exchange today. Two further documents which I shall make available scheme sub-category will be restricted to one-off stays on the departmental websites are a summary of the of a maximum of 12 months, as this is sufficient time responses to the public consultation and an analysis by to obtain the necessary experience. From the autumn, the UK Border Agency of the salary and occupations leave for contractual service suppliers and independent of a sample of skilled workers who settled in 2011. professionals using the international agreement sub-category Copies of these documents will be placed in the House will be restricted to six months in 12, in line with our Library. commitments under the general agreement on trade in services (GATS) and other free trade agreements. We will lay the necessary changes to the immigration We shall also make some deregulatory changes. In rules before Parliament in mid-March, to come into response to feedback that sponsorship requirements effect from 6 April. The exception is the changes to the in the PBS can be unduly onerous and inflexible in some tier 5 international agreement sub-category, where we circumstances, we intend to create a new route outside shall bring forward rules changes in the autumn. the points-based system for certain fee-paid activities. With the exception of the tier 2 settlement rules Visitors in this new category (“permitted paid changes, the rules changes laid in mid-March will apply engagements”) will be able to undertake specific fee to those submitting applications on or after 6 April 2012. paid activities for up to one month without the need for As previously notified, the new tier 2 settlement rules formal sponsorship by a UK-based employer. Those will affect those who entered the points-based system who will be able to benefit will include certain professionals, under the rules in force from 6 April 2011 and who will for example visiting lecturers and examiners, artists be eligible to apply for settlement from April 2016. exhibiting works, authors undertaking book signings, Further details are provided in the statement of intent.

3P Petitions29 FEBRUARY 2012 Petitions 4P

Minister, to urgently discuss the definition of ‘Gypsy’ Petition status for the purposes of planning law with, among others, representatives of Romany Gypsies and English, Wednesday 29 February 2012 Scots, Welsh and Irish Travellers. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Rory OBSERVATIONS Stewart, Official Report, 18 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 5P.] [P000997] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities Definition of Gypsy Status and Local Government: The Petition of supporters of the National Federation The Secretary of State for Communities and Local of Gypsy Liaison Groups, Government published a draft new planning policy for traveller sites for full public consultation in April 2011. Declares that the Petitioners believe that the present The consultation included a question asking whether definition of “Gypsy Status” in the context of planning the current definitions of “gypsies and travellers” and law puts Gypsy women who act as carers for their “travelling showpeople” for the purposes of planning family or who are widowed or divorced in an unequal policy should be retained in the new policy. position; declares that the Petitioners believe that recent case-law shows that this is an increasing issue; declares The current definition for planning purposes reflects that the Petitioners believe that the present definition is the fact that many gypsies and travellers stop travelling not a fair or equal one under the Equality Act 2010 and permanently or temporarily for health reasons or because declares that in the light of the drafting of the new of caring responsibilities but still want to maintain their National Planning Policy Framework and the new Planning traditional caravan-dwelling lifestyle. Policy Statement, this is an ideal time to look at this In response to the question in our consultation, some issue. respondents suggested that the Government hold a full, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of separate consultation on the definition of “gypsies and Commons urges the Secretary of State for Communities travellers”. The Government are currently considering and Local Government, together with the Equalities all the responses to the consultation.

305W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 306W

to 90% in the level of reduction on the rate of climate Written Answers to Change Levy for those industries who sign a Climate Change Agreement with my Department. The Secretary Questions of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the right hon. Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), is leading the development of the eligibility criteria for the Wednesday 29 February 2012 compensation package and the metrics to be used in the criteria with support from the Department with HM Treasury.

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Departmental Regulation and Climate Change if he will consider capping the amount end consumers pay in respect of green taxes and charges via their electricity bill. [95455] Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what progress his Department has Charles Hendry: The Government are committed to made on the Red Tape Challenge; and which regulations ensuring that the transformation to a low-carbon economy have been (a) abolished and (b) revised as part of the and delivery of secure energy supplies happen at least Challenge. [97238] cost to energy consumers. To help ensure that policies achieve their objectives cost-effectively and affordably Charles Hendry: DECG has regulations in both the the 2010 spending review set an overall cap for DECC’s Environment and Energy themes of the Red Tape Challenge tax and spending through policies that entail levy-funded and work is ongoing to review these. We expect spending. announcements on the environment theme in the spring and on the energy theme in summer 2012. However, Currently energy and climate policies add just 1% on DECC has repealed 20 regulations since conducting its average to household electricity bills; while by 2020 own review in 2010. households are estimated to be saving around 16% on average compared to what they would have paid in the Electricity: Prices absence of policies. For businesses, policies currently add around 21% to an average electricity bill paid by Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy medium-sized business users, while by 2020 that will and Climate Change what steps he is taking to reduce rise to 25%. However, for most businesses direct energy the electricity prices paid by energy intensive industry. costs are a relatively small proportion of total costs. [95454] The Government recognise that energy and climate change policies can potentially have distributional impacts, Gregory Barker: While prices paid by individual industrial particularly for the most vulnerable households and the customers are based on commercially confidential most energy intensive businesses, and have taken action contractual arrangements between the customer and to address this. For example, the warm home discount their energy supplier, Ofgem monitors the market to scheme helps eligible low-income and vulnerable households ensure that suppliers’ profits are not excessive and that with their energy costs through a rebate on electricity consumers pay a fair price for their energy. Electricity bills. Last year the Government also announced a package prices paid by industrial users in the UK are largely of measures to reduce the impact of policy on the costs determined by the wholesale cost of electricity (itself of electricity for the most electricity-intensive industries. driven by global fossil fuel prices and the marginal electricity generating technology at a given point in time). Energy: Meters Energy suppliers will also add the cost of transporting the electricity to the customer, any other administrative Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy costs incurred in supplying electricity and a retail margin. and Climate Change what steps he is taking to ensure Industrial electricity prices will also include the cost of that any objections to the Draft Technical Specification the climate change levy as well as the cost of other by the European Commission or other EU member energy and climate change policies which place an states will not delay implementation of the smart meter obligation on the retail energy supplier, which that rollout. [97194] supplier may pass on to their customers. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Charles Hendry: In line with the requirements of the Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), announced Technical Standards Directive (98/34/EC), the Government in his autumn statement on 29 November 2011, Official will notify the GB specifications for smart metering Report, column 807, a package of measures to reduce equipment to the Commission in the coming weeks. the transitional impacts of energy and climate change Some suppliers have indicated they will begin rolling-out policies on the costs of electricity for those energy smart meters once the specifications are notified. This intensive industries whose international competitiveness will provide consumers the opportunity to experience is most affected by these policies. the benefits of smart meters ahead of mass rollout. If This package is worth £250 million to British business objections are raised to the notification, they will be over the current spending review period. It will consist, addressed ahead of the planned start of mass rollout in subject to EU state aid clearance, of compensation for 2014. The Government are engaging with industry experts, the higher electricity costs arising from the EU Emissions the Commission and other member states to minimise Trading System and the Carbon Price Floor. The the risk of delay under the Technical Standards Directive Chancellor of the Exchequer also announced an increase Process. 307W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 308W

Exhaust Emissions: Shipping Charles Hendry: In order to support the Government’s development of a Waste Transfer Pricing Methodology Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for for the disposal of higher activity waste from new Energy and Climate Change what his policy is on the nuclear power stations, the Nuclear Decommissioning European Commission proposal to reduce greenhouse Authority (NDA) has provided cost estimates for the gas emissions from shipping. [97175] disposal of spent fuel, based on the current NDA reference case and also on a range of alternative scenarios Gregory Barker: The Government recognises the which differ from the reference case, for example with importance of addressing greenhouse gas emissions regard to geology or inventory. These cost estimates from shipping. The UK is playing an active role in the relate to the disposal of a canister of spent fuel and the International Maritime Organization’s (IMO) work on canister is designed to be capable of disposing of spent technical, operational and market based measures to fuel from both advanced gas-cooled reactors and pressurised reduce emissions on a global basis. The first best approach water reactors. for dealing with emissions from the international maritime These figures were set out in Annex C of the ″Waste sector is through application of a global Emissions Transfer Pricing Methodology for the disposal of higher Trading System agreed through the IMO. activity waste from new nuclear power stations″ published However, the Government recognises the value of a in December 2011, which is available at European approach to addressing emissions from shipping http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/Consultations/nuclear- and looks forward to receiving the European Commission’s waste-transfer-pricing/3798-waste-transfer-pricing- legislative proposal, noting that the EU had given the methodology.pdf IMO until the end of 2011 to reach an agreement on a No energy companies or reactor vendors are proposing global basis. the construction of advanced gas-cooled reactors as part of any new fleet of new nuclear power stations. Fuel Poverty Green Deal Scheme Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assistance the energy Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for company obligation will provide to people on low pay Energy and Climate Change what incentives he proposes who are at risk of fuel poverty but are not receiving to introduce to encourage take-up of the Green Deal. benefits. [95729] [95727] Gregory Barker: The Green Deal and energy company Gregory Barker: Last year the Government announced obligation will enable households to access energy efficiency a big injection of funding—£200 million—to help boost measures at no up-front cost, while also providing extra early take-up of the Green Deal which will provide a assistance to those who need it most. special time limited ‘introductory’ offer. We have proposed that the Affordable Warmth element There are also existing or potential regulatory leavers of ECO should be targeted at low income and vulnerable that will help drive demand. We have acted to address households. Means tested benefits are one of the best the worst private rented sector buildings. From 2016 all ways of identifying those likely to be most at risk of domestic tenants will not be unreasonably refused consent suffering from the effects of fuel poverty. A number of from their landlords to make energy efficiency improvements the qualifying benefits target those in low paid work, to their homes and from 2018 it will be unlawful to rent such as child tax credit. out domestic or non-domestic properties which fall Under our proposals, all households would be able to below an ‘E’ energy efficiency rating. access the support available under the carbon reduction In addition, the Department for Communities and element of ECO, including those on low pay who are at Local Government is currently consulting on changes risk of fuel poverty but not receiving benefits. to Part L of the Building Regulations that could further We will also be developing guidance shortly under drive take-up of energy efficiency measures from October the Home Energy Conservation Act to encourage local 2012. authorities to promote the Green Deal/ECO in deprived DECC is also working in partnership with our areas. stakeholders to look at further ways of stimulating Furthermore, the consultation invited views on whether demand. there is a need for and the possible structure of any safeguards within the policy to ensure that those most Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Economic Situation at risk of fuel poverty will benefit sufficiently from ECO. We are considering carefully responses to the Green Deal and ECO consultation and the final details Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy of the policy will be published in due course. and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the likely level of reduction in greenhouse gas emissions Gas: Prices due to the 2008-10 recession. [96887]

Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Gregory Barker: DECC has made an initial estimate and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the of the impact of lower than expected growth on its CO2 unit cost of disposal of advanced gas-cooled spent emissions projections, based on the model it uses to reactor fuel; and what the cost would be for the produce its published energy and emissions projections. disposal of such fuel from a new fleet of nuclear power DECC estimates that projected CO2 gas emissions in stations. [96332] the first carbon budget period (2008-12) are around 6% 309W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 310W lower than they would have been if UK GDP were to If all these installations receive the tariffs proposed in have grown as forecast in the 2008 budget rather than as the October 2011 consultation (eg 21p/kWh for <4kW forecast in budget 2011. installations) for electricity generated from 1 April 2012, Projections for the 2nd and 3rd carbon budget period there would be an annual cost of approximately £25 (2013 to 2017) and (2018 to 2022) are around 8% and million (nominal, undiscounted), or a lifetime cost of 9% lower respectively. However the analysis suggests around £350 million (real 2011 prices, discounted). If that, under the central projections even if growth had all these installations receive the original tariffs (eg remained as projected in 2008, the Government would 43p/kWh for <4kW installations) for the 25 year tariff still have been on track to meet the first three carbon lifetime, there would be an annual cost of approximately budgets. £50 million (nominal, undiscounted), or a lifetime cost of approximately £750 million (real 2011 prices, discounted). Housing: Insulation Note that these figures are lower than our earlier estimate of the potential costs of not seeking to appeal to the Supreme Court against the Court of Appeal’s Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for judgment on feed-in tariffs for two reasons: Energy and Climate Change what consideration his (1) they only include data on installations up to 26 February, Department has given to a transition period for the rather than installations to end March; and move from subsidies for cavity wall and loft insulation (2) the installation rate is lower than we anticipated it would to solid wall insulation under the Carbon Emissions have been if we had not sought leave to appeal to the Supreme Reduction Target. [R] [95728] Court. Gregory Barker: Cavity wall insulation (CWI), loft Sellafield insulation, and solid wall insulation (SWI) are all eligible measures under the Carbon Emissions Reduction Target Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (CERT). To date, the obligated companies have focused and Climate Change what plans he has for the (a) primarily on insulation for lofts and wall cavities with future of Sellafield and (b) long-term storage and only limited promotion of SWI, meaning that a large handling of spent fuel; and if he will make a statement. proportion of easy-to-treat cavities have already been [97150] filled or will have been by the end of 2012. The CERT will transition to the new Green Deal and energy company Charles Hendry: Land adjacent to the existing Sellafield obligation (ECO) at the end of 2012. One of our key site is one of the eight locations considered suitable for priorities for the new schemes will be to facilitate a future nuclear power stations and plans to build a new stronger market for SWI. However, there will still be an nuclear reactor here were confirmed in June 2011, with important role for CWI and loft insulation under ECO, a completion date of 2025. Sellafield may, in future, particularly in supporting uptake for low-income consumers. also house other facilities, including a fuel fabrication We are now considering responses to the recent public plant to convert plutonium to MOX fuel, or a viable consultation on Green Deal and ECO, and consideration alternative, for new reactors. Legacy facilities at the site of the transition between schemes will be included in are being decommissioned by Nuclear Management the Government’s response. Partners, under contract to the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA). Intermediate and high level waste Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs will continue to be stored safely and securely until a geological disposal facility (GDF) is available. The credible options paper on spent oxide fuel Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for management, published by the NDA, concluded that Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of the most viable option is to complete the existing contracts 20 February 2012, Official Report, column 479W, on and then close the THORP plant; with any future spent renewable energy: feed-in tariffs, what estimate he has fuel arisings being stored and not reprocessed. The made of the number of solar PV installations since assumption is that the spent fuel from new nuclear 12 December 2011; what estimate he has made of the power stations will be kept on site, in interim storage, annual cost of remunerating the amount of solar PV until the point at which it is disposed of in a GDF and installed since 12 December 2011 at the Government’s that the encapsulation of spent fuel will also be carried revised feed-in tariff rates; and what estimate he has out on site. made of the additional annual cost of remunerating the amount of solar PV installed since 12 December Wind Power: Yorkshire East 2011 at the original tariff rates. [96994] Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Gregory Barker: Latest data from the central FITs and Climate Change what has been the total cost to the register and the Microgeneration Certification scheme public purse of the Lissett windfarm in East Yorkshire. database suggest there were around 37,000 Solar PV [96951] installations between 12 December 2011 and 26 February 2012 (monthly and weekly deployment statistics are Gregory Barker: The renewables obligation (RO) is available on the DECC website at: currently the main financial mechanism by which the http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/energy_stats/ Government incentivises the deployment of large-scale source/fits/fits.aspx renewable electricity generation. It is a market based Note that these data are provisional, and the installation subsidy and the funding comes ultimately from electricity numbers (particularly for the most recent week) are consumers and is classified by the ONS as ‘tax and likely to be revised upwards in later releases. spend’. 311W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 312W

The RO is administered by Ofgem who issued Lissett Justine Greening [holding answer 28 February 2012]: windfarm with 179,765 ROCs in respect of the electricity As set out in the departmental business plan, my intention it generated between February 2009 and November is to take a decision on the line of route for the second 2011. DECC estimate the value of this ROC support at phase of High Speed 2 no later than the end of 2014. £9.2 million in 2011-12 prices, based on a mixture of published and provisional data from Ofgem. High Speed 2 Railway Line: Nature Reserves

Fiona Bruce: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if she will consider all available information on (a) sites TRANSPORT of environmental importance and (b) nature reserves and local wildlife sites when a preferred route for Phase Departmental Recruitment Two of her Department’s proposals for High Speed 2 is identified. [96511] Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much her Department spent on (a) recruitment Justine Greening [holding answer 28 February 2012]: services and (b) executive search agencies in each month Sites of environmental importance, nature reserves and since May 2010; and if she will make a statement. local wildlife sites will be considered in the accompanying [93556] appraisal of sustainability, which is appropriate for that stage of development. A more detailed environmental Norman Baker: The central Department and its seven impact assessment would follow decisions on the ‘Y’ in Executive Agencies have spent £51,967 on recruitment much the same way as due process is being followed for services since May 2010. the environmental impact assessment for phase 1. The Central Department and its seven executive Agencies have not engaged executive search agencies since May M25: Hertfordshire 2010. All other recruitment is handled by an internal centralised resource. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when she expects the roadworks on the M25 near South High Speed 2 Railway Line Mimms to be completed and all carriageways opened; and if she will make a statement. [96952]

Dan Byles: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Mike Penning: The works on the M25 junction 16-23 how many households (a) nationally, (b) in Warwickshire project are expected to complete by July this year. and (c) in North Warwickshire constituency have received assistance from the HS2 Exceptional Hardship Scheme; and what the total monetary value is of compensation Motor Vehicles: Safety allocated in each case. [94795] John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Justine Greening: The information requested is as for what reasons the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of follows: State for Transport has not responded to correspondence (a) Nationally from Martyn Faulds on red indicators on classic American cars. [97174] 47 applications have completed, with a total monetary value of £27,230,850. Norman Baker: The Department has no record of (b) Warwickshire receiving correspondence from Martyn Faulds on red 13 applications have completed, with a total monetary value of indicators on classic American cars but would be pleased £6,077,500. to respond if a copy or copies can be sent to: (c) North Warwickshire Constituency The Department for Transport Six applications have completed, with a total monetary value Great Minster House of £3,045,000. 33 Horseferry Road London Steve Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many officials in her Department are working only SW1P 4DR on the High Speed 2 project; and how many hours they spent working on the project in (a) 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011. [96037] SCOTLAND Justine Greening: There are currently 21 officials working full-time on high speed rail with additional Action for Employment input from a number of other officials within the Department. Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for I would also refer my hon. Friend to my answer of 19 Scotland what contracts his Department has with A4e; January 2012, Official Report, column 916W. and what the (a) purpose and (b) value is of each such contract. [97016] Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when she plans to announce the route of the David Mundell: The Scotland Office has no contracts Y-route of High Speed Two. [97159] with A4e. 313W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 314W

Departmental Pay Members

Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Scotland how many officials in (a) his Department Ireland how many times (a) he and (b) the Minister of and (b) the non-departmental public bodies for which State have received correspondence using House of his Department is responsible are paid (i) £100,000 or Commons notepaper from hon. Members who have not more and (ii) £142,500 or more per annum in the latest taken their seats. [96822] period for which figures are available. [96907] Mr Paterson: The information requested is as follows. David Mundell: There are no officials in the Scotland (a) Four times Office or its non-departmental public bodies that are (b) None paid £100,000 or more per annum. Political Parties

Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Ireland what discussions he has had with representatives of political parties in Northern Ireland on entitlement Drinking Water: Costs to allowances for parties whose Members have not taken their seats in the House of Commons. [96848] Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the Mr Paterson: I have had a number of discussions House of Commons Commission, what the annual cost with representatives of political parties on this issue. is of bottled water supplied to (a) committee rooms and These discussions are continuing. (b) Westminster Hall. [96684]

John Thurso: The cost of providing bottled water for House of Commons Committee and meeting rooms in WALES the Palace of Westminster and Portcullis House for Broadband financial year 2010-11 was £6,983.25, and from April 2011 until December 2011 £8,110.70. It is not possible to separate the cost of water provided in Westminster Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Hall. The Commission has, following a proposal by the what recent discussions she has had with (a) ministerial Administration Committee, agreed to trials using tap colleagues and (b) others on the provision of broadband water and a water cooler, to test the proposition that in Wales. [96381] alternative ways of providing water would have higher costs but result in reduced carbon emissions. Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs Gillan), and I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues in the Department for Culture. Media and NORTHERN IRELAND Sport on a range of issues, including broadband. The Secretary of State has also had recent discussions Action for Employment with the First Minister and the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science on this issue. Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Inward Investment Northern Ireland what contracts his Department has with A4e; and what the (a) purpose and (b) value is of Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales each such contract. [97026] what steps she is taking to promote Wales as a destination Mr Paterson: My Department does not have any for inward investment. [96369] contract with A4e. Mrs Gillan: I am committed to working with UKTI, Departmental Pay the Welsh Government and others to improve the levels of inward investment attracted to Wales. The Welsh Affairs Select Committee report last week Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for highlights a number of important issues but in particular Northern Ireland how many officials in (a) his Department the need for joint working between this Government and (b) the non-departmental public bodies for which and the Welsh Government is very clear. his Department is responsible are paid (i) £100,000 or more and (ii) £142,500 or more per annum in the latest period for which figures are available. [96906] CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Mr Paterson: One official in my Department is currently paid over £100,000 pa. No officials are paid more than Telecommunications: Competition £142,500 pa. There are currently no officials in any of the non- Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for departmental bodies for which I am responsible who Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment are paid more than £100,000 pa. he has made of the effect on competition and consumers 315W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 316W of the cost to smaller providers of submitting appeals Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for under the current telecoms appeals framework. [96927] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he expects (a) amendments to the telecoms appeals framework in Mr Vaizey: While no such assessment has been made order to introduce a more streamlined and efficient I can confirm that issues regarding competition and appeals regime and (b) the introduction of secondary consumers are at the heart of Ofcom’s decision making. legislation to effect the necessary change will take place Appeals against Ofcom’s decisions can be complex and by his deadline previously announced as 6 April 2012. therefore lengthy and costly. To see how this can be [96931] improved the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has carried out two consultations on the telecoms appeals Mr Vaizey: The consultation on the telecoms appeals framework and we are looking at steps to streamline the framework suggested that potential legislative changes process to help all telecoms providers. could be made in time to come into force on 6 April 2012. However, in light of the responses received it is Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for now clear that whilst legislative change cannot be ruled Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what comparative out, the proposed options consulted on need to be assessment he has made of the competitive advantage explored further and that process will not be completed to larger telecoms providers, as compared to smaller in time for reforms to come into force on 6 April 2012. competitors, of larger competitors’ greater ability to afford the costs of appealing Ofcom’s decisions. [96928] Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment Mr Vaizey: While no such assessment has been made he has made of the commercial effect on smaller I can confirm that issues regarding competition lie at telecoms providers of time taken for Ofcom regulation the heart of Ofcom’s decision making. Appeals against due to additional work undertaken by Ofcom in order Ofcom’s decisions can be complex and therefore lengthy to prepare to defend its decisions against a potential and costly.To see how this can be improved the Department appeal. [96933] for Culture, Media and Sport has carried out two consultations on the telecoms appeals framework and Mr Vaizey: No such assessment has been made. However, we are looking at steps to streamline the process to help the Department remains concerned about the impact of all telecoms providers. lengthy and costly appeals against decisions on Ofcom’s ability to regulate for the benefit of consumers. For that Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for reason, the Department has held two consultations on Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent assessment the telecoms appeal framework. The first in autumn he has made of the average cost of appeals submitted 2010, as part of a consultation on implementing changes under the current telecoms appeals regime. [96929] to the electronic communications framework, and the second in August 2011 (closed October 2011). We are Mr Vaizey: The Department for Culture, Media and currently considering what action to take as a result of Sport (DCMS) recognises that appeals against Ofcom’s responses received. regulatory decisions can be lengthy and costly and that is why DCMS has carried out two consultations to Television: Licensing explore options for improving the process. The recent consultation noted that the costs of appeals to industry are not known as such costs are confidential to appellants, Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, however anecdotal evidence suggests that such costs Olympics, Media and Sport how many pensioners in can range from £100,000 to millions of pounds. (a) Bexleyheath and Crayford constituency and (b) the London Borough of Bexley received a free television Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for licence in each of the last three years. [97146] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment he has made of the effect of his proposed amendments Mr Vaizey: I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I to the telecoms appeals framework on (a) the number gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South of appeals submitted, (b) the average length of an (Mr Cunningham), on 8 November 2011, Official Report, appeal and (c) the average cost of an appeal. [96930] columns 193-94W.

Mr Vaizey: As noted in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport’s recent consultation on telecoms appeals there was no intention for the proposals to HOME DEPARTMENT result in fewer appeals as there was no intention to restrict the right of appeal for telecoms providers. While Action for Employment no assessment has been made on the average length of appeals the consultation did note that the time spent by Ofcom in defending appeals was 11,500 staff hours in Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for the financial year 2009-10 and 9,000 hours from April the Home Department what contracts her Department 2011 to January 2012. The average costs of appeals to has with A4e; and what the (a) purpose and (b) industry are not known as such costs are confidential to monetary value is of each such contract. [97076] appellants, however anecdotal evidence suggests that such costs can range from £100,000 to millions of Damian Green [holding answer 28 February 2012]: pounds. The consultation noted that the costs of appeals The Home Department including its Executive agencies to Ofcom were more than £2 million in 2010-11. has no contracts with A4e. 317W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 318W

Arrest Warrants Part three EAW requests issued by the UK in 2009-10. Number of part three requests Country issued by UK Geraint Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many European arrest warrants Cyprus 5 have been issued for arresting and bringing to the UK a Germany 4 suspect from each EU country in each of the last eight Belgium 3 years. [96811] Italy 3 Romania 3 Damian Green: The Serious Organised Crime Agency Greece 2 (SOCA) and the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Hungary 2 Service for Scotland are the designated UK authorities Lithuania 2 responsible for processing European arrest warrants Portugal 2 (EAWs). Information on part teases (persons wanted Austria 1 from the UK by another member state) and part three Bulgaria 1 cases (persons wanted by the UK from another member Finland 1 state). Malta 1 Due to the way data was recorded prior to 1 April Sweden 1 2009, it is not possible to provide data on the number of Total 203 warrants issued to each European Union member state Part three EAW requests issued by the UK 2004 to 2008-09 prior to this date. For cases before this date, a manual Number of part three requests examination of files would have to take place which issued by UK would incur disproportionate cost. 2008-09 257 The following tables show the number of part three requests issued by the UK for those persons wanted 2007-08 182 from another EU member state. 2006-07 146 1 January 2006 to 31 March 2006 24 Part three EAW requests issued by the UK in 2010-11 2005 131 Number of part three requests 2004 96 Country issued by UK

Spain 62 Netherlands 41 British Nationality: Assessments Ireland 37 1 All 23 Tristram Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for the France 16 Home Department how many Life in the UK citizenship Germany 13 tests have been sat in each year since 2007; and what the Poland 10 number and proportion was of such tests which were Cyprus 9 passed in each such year. [91795] Lithuania 9 Belgium 7 Damian Green: Since the test was introduced for Portugal 7 Nationality in 2005 and extended to include settlement Bulgaria 4 cases back in early 2007, over a million tests have been Romania 4 delivered. Czech Republic 2 Estonia 2 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-111 Total Greece 2 Slovakia 1 Total tests 304,905 232,527 186,468 193,461 917,361 taken Sweden 1 (Number) Austria 1 Failure rate 29.70 27.90 25.40 27.00 27.50 Denmark 1 (Percentage) Gibraltar 1 Pass rate 70.30 72.10 74.60 73.00 72.50 Hungary 1 (Percentage) Italy 1 1 Up to May 2011 Malta 1 Note: These figures do not constitute part of National Statistics as they are Total 256 based on internal management information. The information has 1 This refers to requests issued to all EU member states because the not been quality assured under National Statistics protocols, should location of the person is not known be treated as provisional and is subject to change.) Part three EAW requests issued by the UK in 2009-10. Number of part three requests Country issued by UK Civil Disorder

Spain 58 Ireland 39 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State The Netherlands 31 for the Home Department what her policy is on the France 25 recovery of small businesses affected by the public Poland 19 disorder of August 2011; and if she will make a statement. [93348] 319W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 320W

Nick Herbert [holding answer 8 February 2012]: Insurers Departmental Senior Civil Servants have paid out, or made interim payments, to over three-quarters of businesses affected by the riots. Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the We are committed to reimbursing police authorities Home Department how many senior civil servants left for the compensation they pay out, and it is in their her Department and its public bodies in each month interests to put in claims as swiftly as possible. Our key since May 2010; what their names are; what the rate of concern is to ensure that individuals and businesses turnover of senior civil servants in her Department was receive the compensation to which they are entitled, during this period; and if she will make a statement. and the majority already have. [96248] Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what discussions she has had Damian Green: Since May 2010, 70 senior civil servants with police authorities on compensation for people (SCS) have left the Department and its agencies. A affected by riots [95591] monthly breakdown is shown in the table. The rate of turnover of SCS staff in the period May 2010 to February Nick Herbert [holding answer 22 February 2012]: I 2012 was 29.4%, and this represents an overall reduction have convened meetings with the chairs of affected in SCS numbers in the same period of 10%. Given our police authorities together with the Mayor’s Office for obligations under the Data Protection Act we are unable Policing and Crime, Association of Police Authorities to disclose the names of all of these staff. and representatives of the insurance industry. Meetings For the Home Office executive non-departmental have focussed on ensuring that progress is made with public bodies (NDPBs), this information cannot be compensation payments to victims of the August disorder. provided as to do so would incur disproportionate cost. Some information about senior staff in the Home Office and its NDPBs, including names of all staff at Databases: Telecommunications SCS Pay 2 level and above and SCS 1 staff where they hold senior positions or their names are already publicly Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home available, is available on the Home Office website at: Department whether any legislative proposals in respect http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/our-organisation/ of the communications capabilities development programme structure-salary-information/public-bodies-structure-salary/ will be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny. [97351] The information shown is a snapshot as at 30 June 2010, 31 March 2011 and 30 September 2011. James Brokenshire: As set out in the Home Office’s structural reform plan, details of the Government’s Number of SCS staff that left legislative proposals to preserve the ability of the law enforcement, security and intelligence agencies to obtain 2010 communications data within an appropriate legal Total 35 framework will be announced in Parliament in due May 1 course. June 2 July 4 Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home August 2 Department whether she consulted the Information September 2 Commissioner on the communications capabilities October 20 development programme. [97352] November 2 December 2 James Brokenshire: Home Office officials have consulted the Information Commissioner on the Communications 2011 Capabilities Development programme and continue to Total 35 work with his team. January 2 February 1 March 5 Departmental Research April 10 May 3 Graham Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for the June 1 Home Department if she will place in the Library a July 4 copy of the Sixth Defence Scientific Advisory Council August 1 Sub-Committee statement on the medical implications September 2 of the use of Taser X26 and M26 less lethal systems on October 1 children and vulnerable adults and associated Taser November 2 matters. [96605] December 3

Nick Herbert: The sixth Defence Scientific Advisory 2012 Council Sub-Committee statement on the medical Total 0 implications of the use of Taser has today been placed January 0 in the House of Commons Library. 321W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 322W

Entry Clearances: Overseas Students Damian Green: The UK Border Agency does not use the term bogus in the context of compliance actions. Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the The UK Border Agency records institutions’ accreditation Home Department how many checks have been carried by an approved body, and whether it is compliant with out on Tier 4 sponsors in the last three months. [96793] its sponsor duties. The UK Border Agency does not have the power to Damian Green: The UK Border Agency carries out a close any education or training provider. It can however range of checks on Tier 4 sponsors, these include: revoke the Tier 4 licence of any sponsor found to be pre-licence verification; post-licence announced and non-compliant with its sponsorship duties. unannounced visits; specific verification linked to sponsors who apply to be highly trusted and intelligence led non compliance investigations. In the three months October Foreign Nationals: Offenders to December 2011, the UK Border Agency carried out 725 such checks. Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many foreign national offenders Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the who were released since May 2010 have subsequently Home Department how many inspections of Tier 4 been (a) arrested, (b) charged and (c) convicted for colleges have been carried out in the last three months. further offences. [88770] [96794]

Damian Green: Alt Tier 4 sponsors have been visited Damian Green: The following table sets out the number at least twice, once by their accreditation body and once of foreign national offenders who were released after by the UK Border Agency. In 2011, the UK Border being in UK Border Agency detention between May Agency carried out approximately 900 inspections. Around 2010 and May 2011 and have been subsequently (a) half of these inspections were unannounced and arrested, (b) charged and (c) convicted for further approximately a third took place between October and offences: December 2011. Charged—on Arrested remand Convicted Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many Tier 4 sponsors (a) have 2010 been found to be breaking the terms of their licence May101 and (b) had their licences revoked as a result in the June 7 3 4 most recent period for which figures are available. July541 [96795] August 4 3 1 September 3 2 1 Damian Green: Where the UK Border Agency has October 3 2 1 serious concerns about a sponsor, it will suspend its November 1 1 0 licence pending further investigation. The total number December 0 0 0 of sponsors, since the inception of sponsorship, found 2011 to be breaking the terms of their licence is approximately 355. The UK Border Agency has revoked approximately January 6 2 4 150 of these sponsors in total. In the last year 88 February 6 1 5 sponsors have had their licence revoked due to non- March505 compliance. April 3 2 1 May633 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Total 50 23 27 Home Department how many (a) unannounced and (b) announced inspections were carried out on Tier 4 Figures are based on internal management information colleges, in each of the last twelve months. [96796] and are subject to change. The UK Border Agency begins consideration of Damian Green: All Tier 4 sponsors have been visited deportation of foreign national offenders (FNOs) 18 months at least twice, once by their accreditation body and once before the end of the sentence, where the sentence by the UK Border Agency. In 2011, the UK Border length allows. In 2010, 43% of deportations took place Agency carried out approximately 900 inspections. in the Early Removal Scheme period of 270 days. Where Approximately half of these inspections were unannounced. removal is not possible by the end of sentence, the The data provided above is internal management agency seeks to detain FNOs to protect the public and information derived from ’live’ internal operational where there is a risk of absconding. databases that has not been externally validated; it is However the agency has to operate within the law. It therefore provisional and is subject to change. We would must release foreign offenders when ordered to do so by not normally consider this to be of publication quality. the courts and release low risk offenders where there is no realistic prospect of removal within a reasonable Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the period of time. Where we believe there is a risk to the Home Department how many Tier 4 colleges have been public we vigorously oppose bail applications or ask the (a) found to be bogus and (b) closed as a result in the court to impose reporting conditions and electronic most recent period for which figures are available. tagging restrictions if bail is granted. When FNOs are [96797] released the agency works closely with both the police 323W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 324W and the National Offender Management Service to James Brokenshire [holding answer 27 February 2012]: reduce the risk of reoffending. Deportation action continues The budget allocated to the Forensic Science Regulator in all cases. for the financial years 2009-12 were as follows: Approximately 90% of those released on bail are released by the courts. The remaining 10% are released £ by the UK Border Agency, having assessed that the risk 2003-09 1,295,500 of harm posed to the public is low and that there is no realistic prospect of removal within a reasonable period 2009-10 1,278,500 of time. 2010-11 1,297,200 2011-12 1923,000 Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2012-13 2— Home Department how many foreign national 1 Reduction in allocated funding for 2011-12 represents the salaries of offenders due to be removed on release were awaiting staff who were transferred to Home Office Science shared finance and secretariat support functions, but continue to support the Forensic removal in (a) May, (b) September and (c) December Science Regulator. 2011. [88784] 2 To be agreed

Damian Green: The following table sets out the number Knives: Crime of foreign national offenders who have completed their custodial sentence and are awaiting deportation. Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for the Detained Non-detained Total Home Department how many incidences of knife crime were recorded by the Metropolitan police force 2011 in each London borough in each month since May May 1,461 3,760 5,221 2008; and if she will make a statement. [93143] September 1,355 3,906 5,261 December 1,421 3,935 5,356 Nick Herbert [holding answer 2 February 2012]: The Home Office receives information at a police force area Figures are based on internal management information level on offences involving a knife or sharp instrument. and are subject to change. We do not receive data relating to individual London The UK Border Agency begins consideration of boroughs. deportation of foreign national offenders (FNOs) 18 months before the end of sentence, where sentence Proceeds of Crime length allows. In 2010, 43% of deportations took place in the early removal scheme period of 270 days. Where removal is not possible by the end of sentence, the Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for the agency seeks to detain FNOs to protect the public and Home Department what the total value was of criminal where there is a risk of absconding. assets (a) frozen and (b) recovered by (i) each police But the agency has to operate within the law. It must force in England and Wales, (ii) the Serious Organised release foreign offenders when ordered to do so by the Crime Agency and (iii) HM Revenue and Customs in courts and release low risk offenders where there is no (A) each of the last five years and (B) the year to date. realistic prospect of removal within a reasonable period [95400] of time. Where we believe there is a risk to the public we will vigorously oppose bail applications or ask the court Nick Herbert: The value of frozen criminal assets is to impose reporting and electronic tagging restrictions not held centrally. Information on the value of criminal if bail is granted. When FNOs are released the agency assets recovered by each police force in each of the last works closely with both the police and the National five years is available in the House Library. Figures for Offender Management Service to reduce the risk of the Serious Organised Crime Agency and HM Revenue reoffending. Deportation action continues in all cases. and Customs are as follows: Approximately 90% of those released on bail are released by the courts. The remaining 10% are released £ by the UK Border Agency, having assessed that the risk Agency of harm posed to the public is low and that there is no Total value of criminal HM Revenue and Serious Organised realistic prospect of removal within a reasonable period assets recovered in: Customs Crime Agency of time. 2006-07 37,028.857.36 6,030,327.70 Deportation can be delayed for many reasons including 2007-08 30.925,975.75 8.363,806.02 human rights and other legal challenges, the situation in 2008-09 29,157.014.72 18.081,908.67 the offender’s home country and lack of co-operation 2009-10 27,583,852.55 18.432,223.79 by the offender and his/her home government in getting 2010-11 23.630,083.56 15,926,818.08 essential travel documents. 2011-12 (y.t.d. 13.296,028.50 6,768,859.80 September) Forensic Science Regulator: Finance

Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for the Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much funding her Department Home Department (1) what the total value was of allocated to the Forensic Science Regulator in (a) criminal assets that were (a) frozen and (b) recovered 2009, (b) 2010 and (c) 2011; and how much it plans to in (i) each of the last five years and (ii) the year to date; allocate in 2012. [96293] [95401] 325W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 326W

(2) pursuant to the oral answer of 6 February 2012, The provision of national health services, including Official Report, column 16, on serious and organised diagnosis and treatment of children with severe allergies, crime, what the improved performance has been in is a matter for the NHS locally. relation to the recovery of the proceeds of crime. [95425] Antenatal Care

Nick Herbert: The value of frozen criminal assets is Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for not held centrally. The value of criminal assets recovered Health what estimate he has made of the proportion of in each of the last five years and the year to date is as (a) parents who attend (i) part and (ii) all of the follows: ante-natal and post-natal classes available to them and (b) ante-natal and post-natal classes attended by (A) Total value of criminal assets recovered in: £ one parent and (B) both parents. [96807]

2006-07 125,260,000.00 Paul Burstow: This information is not collected centrally. 2007-08 135,700,000.00 There are many different ways of providing antenatal 2008-09 148,000,000.00 education from one to one discussions to workshop 2009-10 153,710,000.00 style groups. A Care Quality Commission survey of 2010-11 157,630,000.00 women’s experiences of maternity services in England 2011-12 (y.t.d. September) 91,200,000.00 in 2010 found that 58% of women had attended national health service antenatal classes during their pregnancy. Terrorism: International Cooperation Delivered with care: a smaller survey of women’s experiences of maternity care published by the National Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Perinatal Epidemiology Unit in 2010 reported 40.2% of Department what assessment her Department has women had attended NHS antenatal classes or workshops. made of the (a) maintenance and (b) utility of the 67% of women who were offered and attended NHS directory of specialised competences in counter- antenatal classes said their partner was welcome to terrorism among national counter-terrorist agencies attend with them. established by EU Council Joint Action 96/610/JHA. [96749] The Department launched ‘Preparation for Birth and Beyond: a resource pack for leaders of community James Brokenshire [holding answer 27 February 2012]: groups and activities’ in October 2011. The pack is a This measure seeks to assist EU member states through practical tool, which aims to improve outcomes for a shared understanding of their respective specialised babies and parents through a refreshed approach to counter-terrorism competencies which might be made antenatal education. available to respond to requests for assistance received The Department funded ‘Reaching out: Involving from other member states. The Government continue to Fathers in Maternity Care and Top Tips: Involving value our working-level cooperation with other EU Fathers in Maternity Care’, published by the Royal member states to combat the threat from terrorism, and College of Mid wives in November 2011. The Guide we continue to review the effectiveness of measures provides top tips and useful insight into how all maternity such as this. service staff might best encourage fathers’ involvement throughout pregnancy and childbirth, and into fatherhood HEALTH and family life. Allergies: Children Cardiovascular System: Health Services Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what measures are in place to ensure that GPs are what recent discussions he has had on improving care aware of the risk of food allergies in children; and what pathways for cardiac services between district general measures are in place to ensure testing occurs. [96911] hospitals and specialist units. [97313] Paul Burstow: Doctors are responsible for maintaining the clinical knowledge necessary for the area in which Mr Simon Burns: The Department has had no recent they practice. All general practitioners should be aware discussions on improving care pathways for cardiac of the common allergic conditions in children, including services between district general hospitals and specialist food allergies, and should be familiar with the local units. pathways for testing and diagnosis of the less common The Cardiac Networks play an active role, working allergies. Information is available from various sources with both commissioners and providers of cardiac services, including a clinical guideline from the National Institute in improving care pathways for patients with heart for Health and Clinical Excellence and a set of clinical disease and reducing variation in access to services. pathways from the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. Departmental Internet Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what funding and assistance is given to Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital Trust to help children Health what public services his Department delivers online only. [96896] with severe allergies. [96876] Paul Burstow: The information requested is not held Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not deliver centrally. any public services online only. 327W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 328W

Departmental Pay Department is responsible are paid (i) £100,000 and (ii) £142,500 or more per annum. [97039] Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many officials in (a) his Department and Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is given (b) the non-departmental public bodies for which his in the following table:

How many full-time How many officials officials are paid (part-time) are paid How many full-time How many officials between £100,000 and between £100,000 and officials are paid above (part-time) are paid Organisation £142,500 £142,500 (FTE) £142,500 above £142,500 (FTE)

Core Department of Health 32 1512 15 Connecting for Health 16 10 1511

Arm’s length bodies Alcohol Education and 0000 Research Council Appointments Commission 15000 Care Quality Commission 6 15 15 15 Council for Healthcare 15000 Regulatory Excellence General Social Care Council 15000 Health Protection Agency 94 1530 15 Human Fertilisation and 00150 Embryology Authority Human Tissue Authority 15000 Monitor 9 15 15 15 1 Or fewer Notes: 1. FTE is full-time equivalent—proportional for part-time workers. 2. The table includes medically qualified staff, some part time, whose salaries with professional allowances bring them into the above pay ranges.

Diabetes: Chiropody include further measures relating to foot care resulting from the findings of these projects. Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for The diabetes foot care activity profiles have been Health pursuant to the Answer to the right hon. developed to provide information on the in-patient care Member for Leicester East of 6 February 2012, Official of people with diabetes who are admitted to hospital Report, column 143W, on diabetes: chiropody, if he will for a range of foot care conditions. They are designed to request an audit of the implementation of National allow those involved in the provision of this care to Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence Guideline appreciate the scale of activity and relate this to similar 10: the Prevention and Management of Diabetic Foot trusts across England. The data used are from the Complications; how improvement to service provision Hospital Episode Statistics database and cover all episodes is being supported by robust audit processes; and if he of in-patient care between April 2007 to 31 March 2010 (published August 2011) and April 2008 to March 2011 will make a statement. [96776] (published January 2012). A diabetes foot care profile is available for every primary pare trust in England. Paul Burstow: NHS Diabetes are currently undertaking NHS Diabetes has also launched national and regional work to improve service provision of foot care for foot care networks to bring together best practice such people with diabetes in England, and to pilot the auditing as integrated foot care services, up-to-date guidance of this provision. There are three aspects to this work: and tools. NHS Diabetes has produced a commissioning Looking at the structure of services. This has already resulted guide for foot care that includes an intervention map in foot care being included in DiabetesE (a web-based service detailing all of the elements needed for the service and a improvement tool that supports implementation of the NICE service specification template. Quality Standard for Diabetes); Piloting the auditing of foot ulcer management; and Diabetes: Orthopaedics Diabetes foot care activity profiles. Audit data on the management of foot ulcers are Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for being tested in 20 pilot sites. Data collection started in Health pursuant to the answer to the right hon. September 2011 on all new cases of diabetic foot ulceration Member for Leicester East of 6 February 2012, Official for a period of three months. Information on when the Report, column 143W, on diabetes: orthopaedics, what ulcer is healed or the outcome at 12 months (whichever assessment he has made of the variation in the is soonest) will also be collected. An analysis of the incidence of (a) minor and (b) major amputations per baseline characteristics will be presented at the Diabetes 1,000 population across primary care trusts; and what UK annual professional conference in March 2012. The steps his Department is taking to reduce such variation National Diabetes Audit 2013 will be expanded to in incidence. [96777] 329W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 330W

Paul Burstow: Unwarranted variation in amputation There are currently no departmental capital funding rates of people with diabetes across the country is schemes available for which hospices are able to bid to unacceptable. It is estimated that with the right care improve existing facilities or which could be used to 80% of amputations carried out on patients suffering build new facilities. from diabetes would be preventable. Decisions about the most appropriate therapeutic Hospitals: Waiting Lists treatment for an individual patient are a matter for the local national health service. But through publishing Gloria De Piero: To ask the Secretary of State for more data like that in the National Diabetes Audit, the Health how many operations have been cancelled by Department aims to help commissioners and providers hospitals in (a) Nottinghamshire and (b) England in identify where improvements need to be made. It is the last 12 months. [96673] important that clinicians also review their own data to make improvements to the care that they provide to Mr Simon Burns: Data on the numbers of elective reduce variation. operations cancelled at the last minute for non-clinical reasons between Quarter 4 of 2010-11 and Quarter 3 of Health Services: Ex-servicemen 201i-12 for acute NHS trusts in Nottinghamshire are shown in the following table. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Number of last minute cancelled operations for non clinical reasons, how much his Department has spent on monitoring the Nottinghamshire and England, Quarter 4 2010-11 to Quarter 3 2011-12 health and wellbeing of returning veterans in each of Number the last 10 years. [96789] Sherwood Forest Hospitals NHS 350 Foundation Trust Mr Simon Burns: There are no current plans for a Nottingham University Hospitals 1,385 NHS Trust specific project of this nature. However, officials at the Nottinghamshire Total 1,735 Department are currently working hard to deliver on England 56,510 the implementation of two key reports whose joint aim Source: is to significantly improve the health and wellbeing of Department of Health dataset QMCO returning veterans. These are Dr. Andrew Murrison’s reports into both mental health, and prosthetics care IVF: Leeds for veterans. There is a budget of £22 million available to deliver against these reports. The development of a Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for “Veterans’ Information Service” (VIS) will form part of Health what steps he is taking to ensure sufficient the Veterans’ Mental Health recommendations. One of provision of NHS-funded in-vitro fertilisation treatment the aims of the VIS is to follow veterans up 12 months in Leeds. [96983] after they leave the service, as we are aware that both the mental and physical wellbeing of service personnel can Paul Burstow: The national health service decides be at risk in the months after they first discharge. locally on the funding of fertility treatment, such as in-vitro fertilisation (IVF), based on the health priorities Hospices of local populations. David Flory, deputy chief executive of the NHS, wrote to primary care trusts in 2011, reminding commissioners of the National Institute for Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health and Clinical Excellence guidelines, including the when the newest hospice was built. [96669] recommendation that up to three cycles of IVF are offered to eligible couples. A copy of the letter has Paul Burstow: We do not hold this information. already been placed in the Library.

Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for McKinsey and Company Health (1) how much of his £40 million of capital funding for hospices in 2010-11 has been spent; [96670] Barbara Keeley: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) which hospices have benefited from his £40 million Health pursuant to the contribution by the Secretary of of capital funding for hospices in 2010-11; and where State for Health of 22 February 2012, Official Report, such hospices are located; [96671] column 909, on McKinsey and Company, what access (3) what plans he has to allow potential new hospices to (a) the Transition Risk Register and (b) any of its to bid for capital funds available to current hospices. constituent parts has been given to staff of McKinsey [96672] and Company. [97233]

Paul Burstow: The recipients of the 2010-11 £40 million Mr Simon Burns: The Department is not aware of hospice capital grant scheme, and their location, are McKinsey and Company having had any access to the included as an annex of the “End of Life Care Strategy Transition Risk Register. Third Annual Report”. A copy has already been place in the Library and is available on the Department’s Medical Treatments website at: www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_130239 what recent assessment he has made of the effect of a Of the £40 million made available, hospices spent patient’s level of optimism on their ability to fight (a) £39,985,299 to improve the physical environment. infectious and (b) cardiovascular diseases. [96837] 331W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 332W

Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not undertaken the morale of NHS staff; what representations he has any assessment of the effect of a patient’s level of received on this matter; and from whom such optimism on their ability to fight infectious diseases. representation was received. [97116] Various studies highlight the benefits of reducing patients’ pessimistic attitudes and increasing their optimism Mr Simon Burns: The annual NHS staff survey is towards their recovery from cardiovascular disease. used to monitor and benchmark the experiences of staff However, there has been no assessment of how conclusive working for the NHS and provides an indication of these studies are and the types of interventions that morale. The 2010 survey is the most recent available, might be put in place to help all patients have a more and demonstrates that against a background of significant positive attitude towards their cardiovascular health. change, NHS staff remain committed to delivering the best possible standard of care for their patients. Mental Health Services: Per Capita Costs The Department’s ministerial correspondence database does not have a specific keyword to index correspondence Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for concerning morale among NHS staff. Providing a figure Health how much each primary care trust spent on with regard to the number of items of correspondence mental health per head in each of the last five years. received about the effect of the National Health Service [97071] Transition Programme on the morale of NHS staff would incur disproportionate cost. This represents Paul Burstow: Information on mental health spend correspondence processed by the Department’s central has been placed in the Library. correspondence team only.

Neurology Obesity: Bexleyheath

Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many people with (a) Parkinson’s disease, (b) what steps he is taking to help tackle obesity in (a) multiple sclerosis, (c) epilepsy, (d) muscular dystrophy adults and (b) children in Bexleyheath and Crayford and (e) motor neurone disease died from (i) their constituency. [97068] condition and (ii) symptoms associated with their condition in each primary care trust area in each of the last five Paul Burstow: Measures to tackle obesity at the local years. [97308] level are a matter for prioritisation by local national Paul Burstow: The Department has made no analysis health. service organisations, the Government have of the number of people dying in each primary care published “Healthy Lives, Healthy People: A call to trust from the specific neurological conditions mentioned. action on obesity in England”. This sets out how obesity will be tackled in the new public health and NHS NHS: Reorganisation systems, and the role of key partners. The “Call to action” sets out a new national ambition Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for to create a downward trend in excess weight in children Health what the financial cost to his Department was and adults by 2020. Localism is at the heart of the new of the appeal against the Information Commissioner’s approach and local leadership will be important in ruling on 2 November 2011. [96813] preventing and tackling obesity. There will be a new ring-fenced public health budget for local areas, and Mr Simon Burns: The cost to the Department of continued investment in key programmes such as officials’ time for work on the appeal is not broken Change4Life. down, as this forms part of their overall duties as civil servants. Organs: Donors The Department receives legal services through a block Service Level Agreement (SLA) with the Department Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for for Work and Pensions (DWP). The costs of Government Health (1) what recent assessment he has made of the lawyers working on the appeal are part of the block shortfall in organ donations to meet demand for SLA payment made by the Department to DWP. Costs transplantation; [97179] of individual projects are not charged to the Department. (2) what steps he plans to take to increase the The costs of external Counsel cover the costs of proportion of potential organ donors who become appealing against two decisions of the Information actual donors. [97182] Commissioner made on 1 and 2 November 2011, relating to the Strategic and Transition risk registers respectively; Mr Simon Burns: Despite the considerable progress both cases will be heard together by the Tribunal. made over the last few years, there is still a shortage of To date, the amount billed to the Department by organs donated for transplant. Around 10,000 people external Counsel is £24,630 (including VAT). It is estimated are listed on the United Kingdom transplant waiting that the total costs of external Counsel in relation to the list and around three people die every day waiting for an two appeals, including the two-day hearing on 5 and 6 organ to become available. The situation is even more March, will be just over £40,000 (including VAT). serious for people from African-Caribbean and Asian backgrounds as they are three to five times more likely Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for to need a kidney transplant than white people. We have Health what assessment he has made of the effect of a number of initiatives to encourage more people to the National Health Service Transition Programme on support donation with specific initiatives within the 333W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 334W black and minority ethnic populations such as working increase in the number of people returning to training. with faith organisations, local radio stations or organisations Therefore, a similar output of qualified physiotherapists like the African-Caribbean Leukaemia Trust. should be achieved, even though there are fewer training People may sign up to the Organ Donor Register commissions. when they register with a new general practitioner; NHS London have tendered for their physiotherapy when applying for a new passport; when applying for a training programmes starting in 2012-13. Higher education European Health Insurance Card, a Boots advantage institutions were informed of the results of these bids in card or a driving licence. NHS Blood and Transplant January 2012. The detail is confidential until the contracts also publicises the need for more people to register as are signed off, which is expected to be in March 2012. donors through public awareness campaigns, on their NHS London have reviewed the level of commissions organ donation website and on their national helpline. in the light of expected future demand for physiotherapists, There are now over 200 highly trained Specialist Nurses taking into account factors such as attrition, retirement for Organ Donation based in hospitals across the country and clinical experts views on quality of education. and NHS Blood and Transplant is continuing to train While a degree of oversupply is desirable to allow for and recruit more staff into this vital role. Clinical Leads unforeseen changes in the future, NHS London believes for Organ Donation have been appointed in every acute that reductions in commissions are required to avoid hospital working closely with hospital Organ Donation large numbers of nurses and physiotherapists being Committees to increase donation rates. unable to find employment. A Transitional Steering Group (TSG), chaired by Primary Health Care Chris Rudge, has also been established to help maintain the momentum. The TSG will be focusing on the six big wins—optimising deceased donation rates through Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for undertaking brainstem death testing and considering Health what estimate he has made of the likely proportion donation after cardiac death in all appropriate of primary health care commissioning being undertaken circumstances, increasing consent rates, increasing donation by (a) public sector employees directly employed by the from emergency medicine, timely referral of donors and state and (b) private sector employees under contract better donor management. to primary health care commissioners for the year 2015-16; and what estimate he has made of future trends in this Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for area. [96957] Health how many people were registered as organ Mr Simon Burns: No such estimate has been made. donors in the most recent period for which figures are available. [97181] Subject to the passage of legislation, the commissioning of primary care services will be the responsibility of the Mr Simon Burns: The current number of people on NHS Commissioning Board (NHSCB) from April 2013. the Organ Donor Register is 18,617,022 as of 24 February The NHSCB Authority, established on 31 October 2011, 2012. is leading the preparatory work for the NHSCB and developing proposals for how its functions could be discharged, including those for primary care commissioning Physiotherapy: Greater London and primary care support services such as general practitioner payments and patient registration (often Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Health known as FHS services). what assessment he has made of the effect of (a) In documents published for its board meeting on changes in numbers of physiotherapy training places in 2 February the NHSCB Authority was clear that staff London and (b) the closure of physiotherapy courses in the 50 local offices of the NHSCB will include those at the University of East London and South Bank involved in primary care commissioning. The cost of University on the ability of the NHS to meet future FHS services will also be the responsibility of these demand for physiotherapy services; and if he will make local office teams. a statement. [97003] At the moment primary care trusts discharge FHS services through a number of different models which Mr Simon Burns: It is the responsibility of strategic include in-house arrangements and outsourcing—both heath authorities (SHAs) to plan their commissions within and outside of the national health service. based on local work force requirements. The precise arrangements as to how these functions The numbers of physiotherapy training commissions will be discharged in the future to secure high quality from 2006-07 to 2012-13, both for NHS London and primary care services will, be for the NHSCB to determine. nationally, are shown in the following table: However they are discharged, the NHSCB will remain Physiotherapy training commissions accountable for all commissioning decisions. Actual commissions Planned commissions Prostate Cancer 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13

NHS 355 368 349 343 315 261 228 Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health London what steps his Department is taking to improve National 2,193 2,038 1,814 1,805 1,714 1,508 1,471 survival rates for men with advanced prostate cancer; and if he will make a statement. [97151] While the intake into training places is important, SHAs have indicated that the reductions in training Paul Burstow: In 2008, the National institute for commissions reflect a number of factors, including Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) published the increased retention of non-medical trainees and an clinical guideline ‘Prostate cancer: diagnosis and treatment’. 335W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 336W

This sets out recommendations on the tests, treatment, TREASURY care and support that men who have suspected or diagnosed prostate cancer should be offered, including Banks: Loans those men who have advanced prostate cancer. To ensure that these recommendations continue to reflect the latest available evidence, NICE is currently updating this guideline. Alun Cairns: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what information his Department holds on the (a) Prostate Cancer: Drugs number and (b) proportion of successful appeals made to banks under the banking lending independent appeals process. [97294] Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment his Department has made of the draft guidance published by the National Institute for Mr Hoban: The first report by Russell Griggs, the Health and Clinical Excellence proposing to refuse independent reviewer of the appeals process, will be approval of the use of abiraterone for patients in published in April. England and Wales, and of the effect any such refusal might have on men with advanced prostate cancer and Child Tax Credit their families; [97199] Mr Hepburn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) how many people received child tax credit over-payments what representations he has received on the use of in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the cancer drugs for the treatment of advanced prostate North East and (d) the UK in each year since the cancer in advance of the National Institute for Health inception of tax credits; [97346] and Clinical Excellence guidance on the issue. [97356] (2) how many people were in receipt of working tax Paul Burstow: The National Institute for Health and credit payments in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Clinical Excellence (NICE) is currently appraising Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK in each abiraterone (Zytiga) for two separate indications. NICE year since the inception of tax credits; [97345] is an independent body and has not yet issued final (3) how many people were in receipt of child tax guidance to the national health service on either indication. credit payments in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South The Department, as a registered stakeholder, has Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the UK in each responded to NICE’S consultation on its draft guidance year since the inception of tax credits. [97344] on the use of abiraterone for castration-resistant metastatic prostate cancer previously treated with a docetaxel- Mr Gauke: The answer to these questions can be containing regimen. found in the Finalised Award Statistics (annual view We have received a number of representations from after finalisation) Geographical Statistics (National hon. Members, members of the public and industry Statistics) available at: with regard to this appraisal. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/final- award-geog.htm Transplant Surgery The average number of claimants of working tax credit and child tax credit can be found in the publication Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for ‘Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics Finalised Health how many people were awaiting transplantation annual awards. Geographical analyses’. For 2009-10, surgery requiring (a) lungs, (b) a pancreas, (c) a the latest year for which finalised data are available, the heart, (d) kidneys and (e) a liver in the most recent publication is at: period for which figures are available. [97180] http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- final-awards-may11.pdf Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is provided For each year, Table 2 has total number of claimants in the following table. for child tax credit and working tax credit by local Active transplant list authority. Table 3 has this information by Westminster Current at 23 February 2012 parliamentary constituency, and both tables have this Total Paediatric <18 years for the UK and the north-east. Information on over-payments just for child tax credit Kidney 6,483 88 would be available only at disproportionate cost; however Pancreas 39 1 information on tax credits over-payments can be found Kidney/pancreas 193 0 in the publication: ‘Child and Working Tax Credits Pancreas islets 22 0 Statistics. Finalised Annual Awards. Supplement on Heart 160 19 payments. Geographical analyses’. For 2009-10 this is Lung 213 17 at: Heart/lung 14 2 http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/cwtc-geog- Liver 487 38 final-awards-supp-may11.pdf Other (multi-organ) 48 8 As previously, for each year Table 3 has information Total 7,659 173 on number of families with over-payments by Westminster Note: These figures are subject to change as information is updated. parliamentary constituency. Table 2 has this information Source: by local authority, and both tables have figures for the NHS Blood and Transplant north-east and the UK. 337W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 338W

Departmental Internet Revenue and Customs: Closures

Helen Goodman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Chancellor of the what public services his Department delivers online Exchequer (1) how much he has allocated to the support only. [96900] of staff affected by redundancy at HM Revenue and Customs in each year between 2012 and 2014; [96818] Miss Chloe Smith: HM Treasury does not deliver any (2) what steps he is taking to support staff affected public services online only. by the closure of HM Revenue and Customs offices between 2012 and 2014. [96819] Income Tax: Gillingham Mr Gauke: By 2015 HMRC will be operating with Rehman Chishti: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 10,000 fewer full-time equivalent posts than in April (1) how many people in Gillingham and Rainham 2011. HMRC is confident that in the main this reduction constituency pay income tax at (a) 20 per cent., (b) 40 can be achieved through natural wastage and through the redeployment of those in need of new roles into per cent. and (c) 50 per cent; [96724] other essential work, particularly .into new roles in (2) what the revenue raised from (a) income tax and compliance arising from the £917 million spending review (b) national insurance contributions was in Gillingham reinvestment to reduce the tax gap. HMRC has no plans and Rainham constituency in the tax years (i) 2009-10 for compulsory redundancies and will avoid these as far and (ii) 2010-11. [96725] as it possibly can. Reduced staffing levels will mean a reduced need for Mr Gauke: Estimates of the number of taxpayers in accommodation and HMRC is nearing completion of the then Gillingham constituency in 2007-08, the latest the office closure plans that will take the Department year for which detailed survey data are available, are right through to 2015. HMRC’s work around these provided in the following table, categorised by their plans indicates that the vast majority of staff affected highest marginal tax rate. by closures are likely to be within reasonable travel of Parliamentary constituency of Gillingham 2007-08 another office and the expectation remains that when Marginal tax rate Number of taxpayers (thousand) an office closes the staff based there will relocate to another HMRC site. As part of the decision making Staffing rate 7 process staff will have the opportunity to discuss how Basic rate 44 their personal circumstances affect their ability to move Higher rate 6 in one-to-one discussions with their managers. HMRC All taxpayers 56 will support individuals unable to relocate by exploring Note: all available options with them and financial support in Components may not sum to total due to rounding. Source: the form of daily travel assistance will be considered for Survey of Personal Incomes, 2007-08 those who face increased travelling costs as the result of the move. Total tax liabilities for the Gillingham constituency are estimated at £222 million in 2007-08. Tax Avoidance: Ghana Estimates of national insurance contributions by parliamentary constituency are not available. Projections of taxpayer numbers by marginal rate to Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Chancellor of the 2011-12 are available for the UK and each Government Exchequer what reports he has received on the use of Office Region on the HMRC website in tables 2.1 and Ghana as a location for tax avoidance schemes. [96958] 2.2, at the following addresses: Mr Gauke: Treasury Ministers receive advice from http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-1.pdf HM Treasury and HMRC on a range of tax policy http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_tax/table2-2.pdf issues and are aware of tax repayment claims based on Projections of taxpayer numbers and their liabilities arrangements involving Ghanaian teak farming. HMRC are not available at lower levels of geography, due to is currently investigating claims relying on these greater uncertainties in making projections for small arrangements. geographical areas and small sample sizes. Taxation: Aviation Income Tax: National Insurance Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) what recent estimate he has made of the Exchequer what discussions he has had on (a) the revenue which would accrue to the Exchequer if (a) alignment of national insurance contributions with fuel duty was levied on (i) international and (ii) internal income tax and (b) the removal of the upper earnings journeys by air and (b) value added tax was levied on limit cap on national insurance contributions. [96799] the full value of air tickets; [96826] (2) what estimate he has made of the revenue which Mr Gauke: The Government are currently working would accrue to the Exchequer if (a) air passenger on options for integrating income tax and national duty was replaced with a tax levied at 20 per cent. on insurance contributions. Budget 2012 will give an update. airline tickets for flights departing from UK airports The Government have no plans to remove the upper and (b) aviation fuel was subject to duty at the same earnings limit cap on national insurance contributions. rate as petrol for cars. [96827] 339W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 340W

Miss Chloe Smith: I refer the hon. Member to the £ million answer given to my hon. Friend the Member for East Total Crown Estate 50% of Crown Estate Surrey (Mr Gyimah) on 12 September 2011, Official 2010-11 marine revenues marine revenues Report, column 1041W. Aviation turbine fuel used in private pleasure flying Scotland in turbine powered aircraft is subject to duty at the Highlands and 3.7 1.85 same rate as road diesel at 57.95p per litre. Aviation Islands gasoline used in piston powered aircraft is subject to Rest of Scotland 4.1 2.05 duty at 37.70p per litre. Other uses of aviation fuel in the UK do not attract duty. VAT at 20% is applicable to Wales 2.3 1.15 retail sales of aviation fuel used for commercial flights N. Ireland 0.9 0.45 within the UK and private pleasure flying. Tax receipts Total 47.4 23.7 from these sources are not disaggregated from reported totals. At a local or constituency level, however, the Fund will operate on a competitive bid led basis. It will be Taxation: Self-assessment open to any coastal community that can meet the eligibility criteria set out in the prospectus my Department David Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer launched on 9 February to apply for a grant, regardless what steps he is taking to assist people living in rural of the level of marine revenues raised by the Crown constituencies without access to the internet who are Estate in that locality. required to submit a self-assessment tax return online; and if he will make a statement. [96870] Departmental Food Mr Gauke: There is no requirement for taxpayers to file their income tax self-assessment tax return online. Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Taxpayers who do not wish to or have difficulty in Communities and Local Government what proportion filing their income tax self-assessment return online of food purchased by his Department was produced in have the option to file a paper return by 31 October the UK in each of the last five years. [93720] following the end of the tax year concerned. Robert Neill: In the last two years the proportion of Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Chancellor of the food purchased by the Department that was produced Exchequer what steps he is taking to simplify the in the UK was as follows: self-assessment tax form. [96880] Financial year Percentage UK produce Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs is committed to improving taxpayer experience by continually reviewing 2010-11 57 its products and processes. This includes the usability 2009-10 56 and contents of the self-assessment tax return. The information requested for earlier years was published by DEFRA in three annual reports on food procurement which covered the period April 2006 to March 2009. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT The final one of this series is available at: Coastal Communities Fund http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/policy/publicsectorfood/ documents/100226-food-proc-initiative.pdf These reports include an estimate of the proportion Dr Thérèse Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for of domestically produced food procured for Government Communities and Local Government what methodology Departments and also supplied to hospitals and prisons his Department used to determine the amount of funding under contracts negotiated by NHS Supply Chain and for each coastal constituency in the Coastal Communities the National Offended Management Service. A summary Fund. [96737] of all three years is on page four of this document. Grant Shapps: The amount of money made available These reports were laid in the Library of the House. to each country of the UK under the Coastal Communities These figures were supplied by our facilities management Fund is equivalent to 50% of the gross revenues raised supplier and relate to in-house catering. by the Crown Estate’s marine activities in that area. For The DEFRA document quotes the following figures 2012, the funding is based on the Crown Estate’s marine for DCLG for earlier years: revenues in 2010-11. This will make available £23.7 million (50% of £47.4 million revenue raised) to support Percentage economic development in coastal communities in the UK and will be split between each country as follows: 2008-09 57.5 2007-08 65 £ million 2006-07 59 Total Crown Estate 50% of Crown Estate 2010-11 marine revenues marine revenues The Department’s caterers are contracted to comply England 36.4 18.2 with Government buying standards for food with regard to food purchase and provision and we are working to increase the volume of food procured from the UK. 341W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 342W

Departmental Internet the housing and construction sector. We have not yet made any firm decisions on what regulations will be Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for abolished. Ministers will consider the public comments Communities and Local Government what public services and whether there is a robust case for each regulation to his Department delivers online only. [96890] either be abolished or revised. The 123 Red Tape Challenge reforms made, or about Robert Neill: The Department for Communities and to be made, so far across all Departments are set out in Local Government does not deliver any public services the Government’s latest Statement of New Regulation online only. published on 28 February 2012. Many further changes will be announced and implemented in the coming Departmental Procurement months. So far 15 themes have appeared on the Red Tape Challenge website. Five have gone through a rigorous Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for decision making process (Retail; Hospitality, Food and Communities and Local Government how much his Drink; Employment Related Law; Manufacturing; Road Department spent procuring products and services in Transport). The Government have also announced 2010-11. [93871] deregulatory plans in health and safety, following the Löfstedt report, with more to follow through Red Tape Robert Neill: We have interpreted this question to Challenge. include all 3rd party expenditure including rents and rates for instance. Departmental records show a total of Departmental Travel £222.6 million expenditure on products and services in financial year 2010-11. All spending over £500 is published on my Department’s Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for website as part of our transparency agenda. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 16 January 2012, Official Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, column 31WS, on cost of ministerial cars, whether Communities and Local Government (1) what proportion his Department has any other arrangements for ministerial of the total value of contracts issued or to be issued by travel; and how much his Department has spent on (a) his Department in 2011-12 have required successful private hire vehicles and (b) taxis for each Minister organisations to put up a capital bond; and if he will since May 2010. [92839] make a statement; [94919] (2) which contracts his Department has tendered or Robert Neill: This Government have taken a series of will tender in 2011-12 which require successful steps to reduce the cost of ministerial travel. Departmental organisations to have a capital bond of more than spend with the Government Car and Despatch Agency £5 million; which contracts have not required such a has been reduced from £488,276 from 1 April 2009 to bond; and if he will make a statement. [94940] 31 March 2010, to £268,953 from 13 May 2010 to 31 March 2011, and the number of allocated cars been Robert Neill: The Department has interpreted capital reduced from six to one. bonds to mean surety bonds, such as Performance Use of a Hackney Carriage taxi is often cheaper than Bonds. using the pool car arrangements provided by the The Department has not issued and has no plans to Government Car Service. From 13 May 2010 to the end issue capital or performance bonds in respect of contracts of January 2012, total expenditure by ministerial offices tendered or planned to be tendered in 2011-12. Due to on taxis was £3,029 over the 21 month period. This the nature of procurements undertaken by the Department figure includes travel by staff within ministerial offices—it it is not foreseen that these instruments would be required. is not a figure solely for travel by Ministers. Ministers have made occasional use of private hire Departmental Regulation vehicles when making visits to different parts of the country: total expenditure on such vehicles for the Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for period in question is not readily available and could be Communities and Local Government what recent progress provided only at disproportionate cost. his Department has made on the Red Tape Challenge; and which regulations have been (a) abolished and (b) Electoral Register revised as part of the Challenge. [96997]

Robert Neill: To date, of over 1,200 regulations considered Mr Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities so far under Red Tape Challenge, the Government have and Local Government what role (a) district auditors agreed to scrap or substantially overhaul well over 50%. and (b) the local government ombudsman have in relation As a result of the Red Tape Challenge, DCLG has so to complaints of maladministration in local authority far announced deregulatory plans, as part of the Hospitality, electoral registration services. [96974] Food and Drink theme, to relax the requirements on energy performance certificates in holiday lets. Robert Neill: The local government ombudsman’s The DCLG Housing and Construction theme is currently role is to investigate complaints from members of the going through the Red Tape Challenge process. We have public who consider they have suffered injustice arising invited the public, business and the voluntary and from maladministration, including on electoral registration community sector to give us their views on how to services by local authorities. The ombudsman may make reduce unnecessary and disproportionate red tape in recommendations about redress. 343W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 344W

The district auditor would have no role in relation to Fire Services: Pensions a maladministration complaint, unless there could be issues of impropriety, or irregularity, or illegality, in the John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for use of resources. Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of the findings of (a) the report entitled Email Pension Schemes in the Fire Service and the Independent Public Service Pensions Commission by Tony Cutler Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for and Barbara Waine, (b) a report on the impact of the Communities and Local Government if he will take Governments’ proposals for members of the firefighters’ steps to encourage the use of e-mail in preference to pension scheme and the new firefighters’ pension scheme printed correspondence for communications between by First Actuarial consultants, (c) a scoping study: his Department and hon. Members. [94854] Review of ageing and the demands on firefighting by Richard Graveling and Joanne Crawford on behalf of Robert Neill: The Department will want to consider the Institute of Occupational Medicine and (d) the this issue in the light of the views of hon. and right hon. report entitled Fitness for Work: Estimate of the Members and having taken account of previous and deterioration of the aerobic fitness of firefighters with existing experiments of the use of e-mail in preference age by Richard Graveling on behalf of the Institute of to printed correspondence Occupational Medicine. [R] [94846] Robert Neill: Each of the reports referred to were Environment Protection: Planning Permission commissioned by the Fire Brigades Union as part of the detailed discussions around setting the cost ceiling Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for for, and undertaking further discussions on, reforms to Communities and Local Government what plans he has firefighter pensions. I am grateful for the continued to give guidance to local planning authorities on the dialogue with the Fire Brigades Union and all of the National Ecosystems Assessment. [96734] firefighter unions to discussions on pension reforms, and for providing the evidence in the reports which, I Robert Neill: In our consultation on the draft National can confirm, have been fully considered by the Government. Planning Policy Framework we asked for views about On 9 February, I updated the House on the Heads of supporting guidance and who could provide it. We are Agreement that has now been reached on proposed carefully considering all of the submissions that have reforms to the firefighters’ pension schemes, a copy of been made to the consultation and will consider what which was deposited in the Library of the House. The relevant guidance will be required. proposals will ensure that firefighters continue to have access to good quality pensions that are sustainable, fair Fire Services and effective. The design parameters provide for 10 years of transitional Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for protection, so that those closest to retirement will see no Communities and Local Government what steps he is change in when they can retire, nor any decrease in the taking to encourage more people to sign up to become amount of pension they receive at their normal pension on-call retained firefighters. [97314] age. There will also be a further four years of tapered protection, and a final salary link for all benefits earned Robert Neill: The Department greatly values the retained under final salary arrangements. The proposed new firefighter duty system, which provides flexible, cost-effective scheme provides for a defined benefit career average and locally based fire and rescue cover. However, scheme with a generous accrual rate of 1/58.7ths based responsibility for the recruitment and deployment of on in-service revaluation of average weekly earnings. retained duty system firefighters rests with individual There will also be flexible retirement from age 55, built fire and rescue authorities. Each fire and rescue authority around a normal pension age of 60, with enhanced is responsible for assessing through its integrated risk retirement arrangements for active scheme members management planning process the number of firefighters who are age 57 and over. on both whole-time and retained duty systems, required to provide an effective fire and rescue service in its area. Fire Services: Standards My Department continues to work with fire and rescue authorities to raise awareness of the retained John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for duty system, to aid this it has produced the Retained Communities and Local Government how many and Duty System Employers’ Information Toolkit to support what proportion of fire service response times, from fire and rescue authorities in engaging with local employers time of call to time of first attendance, were of a duration in raising awareness about the duty system, and encouraging of (a) up to five minutes, (b) six to 10 minutes, (c) 11 their support to release staff to become retained duty to 15 minutes and (d) over 15 minutes for each fire and firefighters. The Department has also produced the rescue service in each year since 2000. [R] [94843] Recognition Scheme for Primary Employers of Retained Duty System (On-Call) Firefighters, to recognise employers Robert Neill: The information requested is not readily who have agreed to make staff available for retained available. However, it is intended that analysis of response duty system service. time data, including the information requested, will be As well as the above, the Department also maintains included in the Fire Statistics Monitor which is to be regular dialogue with the representative bodies on retained published by July. This will include data up to 31 March duty system issues. 2012. 345W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 346W

Homelessness: Greater London Housing: Repairs and Maintenance

Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many people Communities and Local Government (1) what recent (a) applied for and (b) were awarded home repairs estimate he has made of the cost of providing temporary assistance in England in financial years (i) 2009-10 and accommodation to homeless people in (a) the London (ii) 2010-11. [97323] Borough of Bexley and (b) London in each of the last five years; [96728] Andrew Stunell: Data are collected on private sector (2) how many people in (a) the London Borough of renewal assistance via the Housing Strategy Statistical Bexley and (b) London presented as homeless in the Appendix. This includes all assistance (grants and loans) last five years. [96729] to private sector dwelling stock (including housing associations) for repairs, improvements and adaptation under the Regulatory Reform (Housing Assistance) Grant Shapps: The following table shows the total (England and Wales) Order 2002 and the Housing number of decisions about households presenting as Grants, Construction and Regeneration Act 1996. homeless (i.e. those applying for assistance under the The dataset is published annually at the following 1985 and 1996 Housing Acts) made by: (a) the London link: borough of Bexley and (b) all London boroughs and the City of London in the last five financial years. This http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ comprises: (i) all eligible households found to be in housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/localauthorityhousing/ dataforms/ priority need and unintentionally homeless (acceptances); (ii) those in priority need but intentionally homeless; Summary information about renewal grants are published (iii) those not in priority need and (iv) those found to be in the table at the following link: not homeless. http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/housing/xls/ 2039604.xls Total number of decisions made by (a) London borough of Bexley (b) all London boroughs and the City of London under the 1985 and 1996 In 2009-10, 127,070 grants were paid by local authorities Housing Act on applications from eligible households, for the last five to households for renewal assistance. A further 4,860 loans financial years were paid by local authorities or by third parties sponsored Total decisions by local authorities. London borough of Bexley London In 2010-11, 124,490 grants were paid to households for renewal assistance. A further 5,070 loans were paid. 2006-07 850 33,450 These figures relate to grants and loans completed 2007-08 579 29,000 during the financial year. Information is not collected 2008-09 423 27,290 on the number of grants and loans that have been 2009-10 261 23,150 applied for. Information on the actual number of 2010-11 519 25,310 households receiving assistance is not collected. Source: Quarterly P1E returns Local Authorities Information about English local housing authorities’ actions under the homelessness legislation (Part 7 of the Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Housing Act 1996) is collected quarterly at local authority and Local Government if he will take steps to force level. Data are published in the quarterly Statistical local authorities to divest themselves of assets which Release on Statutory Homelessness, and are available in are not necessary for their core functions; and if he will the Library of the House or via the DCLG website: make a statement. [96954] http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/homelessnessstatistics/ Robert Neill: It is for local authorities to decide how publicationshomelessness/ to make best use of their assets, including the relative I recently announced allocations of £18.6 million to benefits and costs of holding assets, and the disposal of local authorities so they can better tackle single homelessness under-utilised assets. They are best placed to know and bear down on rough sleeping. This extra funding what is most appropriate for their local area in a way will help councils to ensure that nobody is turned away that central Government cannot. without clear and useful advice when they are most in We have been working with a number of local authorities need. This comes on top of the existing £400 million to look at all public land and buildings in their area homelessness grant this Government have protected. which has shown potential 20% savings, significant opportunities for growth and improved outcomes for The Department for Communities and Local residents. Government collects and publishes detailed breakdown of outturn local authority revenue expenditure on housing services including homelessness and temporary Local Authorities: Airports accommodation since 2005-06. This information can be found on the Department’s website at: Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities http://www.communities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ and Local Government whether he considers it appropriate localregional/localgovernmentfinance/statistics/ that local authorities should own or hold an interest in revenueexpenditure/ an airport; and if he will make a statement. [96953] 347W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 348W

Robert Neill: It is for a local authority to be satisfied Decision % % that it has the power to undertake any specific activities. year Procedure Allowed allowed Upheld upheld Total This would include the ownership or holding of an interest in an airport. The Airports Act 1986 made LI 9 60 6 40 15 provision for the establishment of Public Airport Companies. This is a company that carries out the 2010 WR 32 56 25 44 57 business of operating an airport as a commercial IH 0 — 3 100 3 undertaking, which is either a subsidiary of a single principal council or a subsidiary of two or more such LI 14 48 15 52 29 councils. 2011 WR 45 60 30 40 75 Planning Permission: Travellers IH 4 36 7 64 11 LI 11 61 7 39 18 David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for WR = Written Representations Communities and Local Government what assessment IH = Informal Hearing he has made of the effect of new planning guidance on LI = Local Inquiry travelling showpeople’s sites on appeals lodged before Private Rented Housing the new guidance comes into force; and whether such an appeal against a planning decision will be judged Graham Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for against the guidance that was in force at the time the Communities and Local Government what assessment application was made. [94804] he has made of the effects of buy-to-let mortgages on the size of the private rented sector. [96774] Robert Neill: Our draft planning policy for Traveller sites was published for consultation last year and we are Andrew Stunell: Based on data drawn from the English currently considering all the responses. Housing Survey for 2010-11 and the latest figures from In the meantime, decision-makers are entitled to have the Council of Mortgage Lenders, we estimate that regard to the fact that it is proposed to withdraw the buy-to-let mortgages currently support some 39% of circulars and replace them with the Government’s draft private rented sector stock. The Government’s Housing new policy. Strategy outlines our support for a thriving private When a planning inspector makes a decision they will rented sector, as well as taking a series of measures to take into account all the evidence before them at the build more affordable homes and support home ownership. time the decision is made, including national planning Recycling: Shropshire policy that is extant at that time. We intend to publish our new policy as soon as Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for possible. Communities and Local Government what advice and assistance he is giving to Shropshire council to help Planning Permission: Wind Power them to collect and recycle cardboard. [96878]

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: My Department published a detailed Communities and Local Government how many planning prospectus for the Weekly Collection Support Scheme appeals in respect of wind turbines were considered by on 3 February. The fund, worth up to £250 million, will the Planning Inspectorate in each planning category for support local authorities like Shropshire to deliver better each of the last five years; and what proportion of such weekly collections of household waste and recycling. appeals in each category were (a) upheld and (b) We are inviting expressions of interest by 16 March dismissed. [94780] from English local authorities, like Shropshire, that will deliver weekly collection, environmental benefits, and Robert Neill: The following table shows the number cost-effectiveness. We look forward to receiving a range of planning appeals in respect of wind turbines in each of innovative bids that promote investment in infrastructure, category, the percentage allowed and upheld for each of champion joint working and better procurement, and the last five years. Within these figures are a number of reward householders for recycling more. appeals for turbines on individual dwellings. Social Rented Housing: Finance Decision % % year Procedure Allowed allowed Upheld upheld Total Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what payments have been made 2007 WR 25 44 32 56 57 from the public purse to each (a) housing association IH 0 — 2 100 2 and (b) social housing provider in each of the last five LI 0 — 4 100 4 years; and for what purpose the funding was provided. [94675] 2008 WR 14 39 22 61 36 IH 4 100 — — 4 Grant Shapps: This Government wants to create a LI 3 38 5 63 8 new era of accountability and openness. We are therefore committed to publishing details of any new tenders for contracts, new contracts over £10,000 and spending 2009 WR 26 50 26 50 52 data involving all transactions of over £500. This threshold IH 5 56 4 44 9 of over £500 is a lower threshold than that required by 349W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 350W

HM Treasury but the Department has brought publication Paid Invoices paid Percentage of its spending data in line with transactions published by local authorities. These transactions will include 90 plus days 26 0.19 payments made directly by this Department to housing associations and other social housing providers. Grant The ‘paid...’ criteria include the two days required by payments made by this Department from 2008-09 can the banking process, and therefore represent delivery of be found at the following website: cleared funds in the supplier’s bank account. http://www.communities.gov.uk/corporate/ The invoices shown are for all suppliers as DCLG transparencyingovernment/spenddata/ does not distinguish between supplier types. From November 2010 the Department has published For comparison, the performance in April 2010 in this spend data on a monthly basis. percentage terms was: The Homes and Communities Agency, as a Departmental arm’s length body, is responsible for Paid Percentage publishing its own spending data and is expected to Within 14 days 91.13 publish details of their transactions over £500 every Between 15 and 30 5.27 month on their own website. HM Treasury prescribe the Between 31and 60 1.97 format of the data published and provide guidance on Between 61 and 90 0.85 content and data exclusions. 90 plus days 0.78 Expenditure data from 2010-11 can be found at the following website: http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/transparency To provide the detail of all payments made to each ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS housing associations and other social housing provider in every year for the last five years, including the purpose Action for Employment for which the funding was provided, would be to do so at disproportionate cost. Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what contracts Wind Power: Planning Permission her Department has with A4e; and what the (a) purpose and (b) monetary value is of each such contract. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for [97020] Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of (a) the effect of the presumption in Richard Benyon: Core DEFRA has no contracts with favour of sustainable development on appeals to A4e. overturn local planning decisions relating to wind farms and (b) the compatibility of that presumption Birds of Prey with his localism policy. [97081] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill [holding answer 28 February 2012]: An Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate impact assessment was published alongside the draft her Department has made of the population of each National Planning Policy Framework, which includes species of birds of prey in each of the last five years. an initial assessment of the implications for planning appeals. The presumption in favour of sustainable [96203] development is designed to reinforce the role of locally- Richard Benyon: The populations of birds of prey in produced plans in addressing development needs. the UK are monitored through a range of schemes and Departmental Billing surveys according to species. For more abundant species, between-year population trends are assessed through annual sample surveys, notably by the British Trust for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Ornithology (BTO)/Joint Nature Conservation Committee/ Communities and Local Government how many and RSPB Breeding Birds Survey, the most recent results of what proportion of his Department’s invoices from its which can be found on the BTO website. private sector suppliers were paid (a) within 14 days, (b) between 15 and 30 days, (c) between 31 and 60 Scarce species are subject to periodic national surveys days, (d) between 61 and 90 days and (e) more than 90 (usually undertaken every 12 years) to assess national days after receipt in the last 12 months. [93441] population sizes. The results of these surveys are published in scientific journals and summarised by the Rare Breeding Robert Neill: The following table shows the number Birds Panel’s annual report, which is available via the of invoices processed by the Department for Communities Panel’s website. and Local Government between 1 February 2011 and The geographical range of raptors in UK is periodically 31 January 2012. assessed by atlases of distribution in the breeding and non-breeding season about every 25 years. These atlases Paid Invoices paid Percentage are organised jointly with Ireland, and in the UK are co-ordinated by the BTO and the Scottish Ornithologists’ Within 14 days 13,307 95.27 Club. The most recent, covering the period 2007-11, is Between 15 and 30 467 3.34 planned for publication in 2013. Between 31 and 60 133 0.95 Between 61 and 90 35 0.25 Population sizes assessments are thus not made annually for all species. 351W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 352W

I refer my hon. Friend to the answer I gave on Commissioners Office. Information on personal data 7 December 2011, Official Report, columns 346-8W, security breaches is published on an annual basis in the which provided the most recently available assessments Department’s annual resource accounts. of the population size of each diurnal species of UK Additionally all critical and significant control raptor, and the periods these derive from. weaknesses, including other critical and significant security breaches, are included in the Statement of Internal Common Fisheries Policy Control which is published within the annual resource accounts. Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for The incidents referred to in this reply all occurred Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions after March 2011 and therefore have yet to appear in she has had with (a) the European Commission and published accounts. (b) other EU member states on fisheries partnership agreements as part of the review of the common fisheries Droughts: Lincolnshire policy; and if she will make a statement. [95733]

Richard Benyon: As UK Fisheries Minister, I hold Mr Leigh: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, regular discussions on fisheries partnership agreements, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is taking to the revision of which forms a key element to the wider mitigate the effects of any potential drought in Lincolnshire. reform of the common fisheries policy. I most recently [96040] discussed this with Commissioner Damanaki, earlier this month and with key interests at a DEFRA funded Richard Benyon: Following the exceptional shortage conference at Chatham House. Discussions continue of rainfall over the last 18 months Lincolnshire is in a and the external dimension of the CFP is scheduled for drought. discussion at the Fisheries Council on 19 March. The Environment Agency’s drought team in Lincolnshire As negotiations continue, I will press our case for meets regularly to plan and implement agreed actions. reform, and in particular will look to strengthen proposals The meetings include representatives from Anglian Water on fisheries partnerships agreements to ensure the same and the National Farmers Union. principles of sustainable use are applied inside and Advice has been given to all water users in relation to outside EU waters, and that agreements with developing the potential impacts and how they can help. The countries are managed transparently. Environment Agency will continue to provide advice and updates as the situation develops. Departmental Data Protection The Environment Agency is closely monitoring the impact of the drought on the environment and will Mr David Davis: To ask the Secretary of State for respond to any environmental incidents as result of this, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to for example by undertaking fish rescues where appropriate. the answer of 6 February 2012, Official Report, column 80W, on departmental data protection, what The Environment Agency will continue to operate a data or information was compromised and under what number of water transfer schemes, including a scheme circumstances in each of the five cases of data loss and that pumps water from the River Trent into the rivers breaching confidentiality; what steps her Department Witham and Ancholme. This is used to support public took in response to each case; and if she will make a water supply, industry and agriculture in the county. statement. [96579] Droughts: London Olympics 2012 Richard Benyon: The five incidents reported in the answer of 6 February 2012, Official Report, column Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for 80W, on departmental data protection were three cases Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she is of data loss and two breaches of confidentiality. making contingency plans for the potential effects of Two of the data loss incidents concerned staff records drought on the London 2012 Olympic Games; and if lost in transit by (i) a mail courier and (ii) loss on a she will make a statement. [96418] train; the staff affected were made aware of the losses. The third data loss incident involved a list of possible Richard Benyon: The Olympics has been designed to nominees for a specialist panel. This was left on public be the most sustainable modern Olympics. The Olympic transport, however it was quickly recovered intact with Park sports venues will use at least 40% less water than no compromise of integrity or confidentiality. Where equivalent buildings through the use of water efficient staff members were responsible for the losses, action appliances, rain water harvesting from roofs, and grey was taken under the Department’s disciplinary procedures. water systems. An innovative membrane bioreactor plant The two breaches of confidentiality concerned has also been installed to make use of ‘black water’ to unauthorised disclosures which when investigated were supply a custom non-potable distribution system on the not found to relate to protectively marked information. Olympic site. They had no impact on the business of the Department Thames Water, the water supplier to the main Olympics and did not involve personal data. Park, has indicated that if the region does not receive The Department takes all cases of data loss very above average rainfall in the near future it may have to seriously and all reported incidents are investigated by impose restrictions on water usage this summer in line the departmental security officer. DEFRA and its agencies with its drought plan. It does not anticipate that this report all critical and significant personal data security will affect essential Olympic activities and will be working breaches to the Cabinet Office and the Information with London Organising Committee of the Olympic 353W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 354W and Paralympic Games to minimise non-essential water of assembling a case to support a request to the European use. Thames Water and the relevant Government Commission for an increase in the kilowatt days limit Departments hold regular discussions on this issue. for the scallop fishery in the western waters or a realignment Other water companies who supply Olympic venues of effort from Area VI to Area VII. [96839] in areas affected by the risk of drought are taking Richard Benyon: DEFRA has sought advice from actions in line with their drought plans. As yet there is Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture no indication that this will affect essential Olympic Science (CEFAS), our marine scientific advisers, on activities. whether or not an evidence based justification exists for increasing effort in Area VII. CEFAS advised that such Environment Agency: Manpower a justification could not be made on the available evidence at this time. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Floods: Pendle Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many employees of the Environment Agency are assigned to dealing Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for with shale gas issues. [96860] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is taking to mitigate the effects of flooding in Pendle Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency currently constituency. [96556] has one national officer assigned full time to the Richard Benyon: In November 2011, the Environment environmental regulation of shale gas. A further 20 national Agency lowered a weir on Colne Water at Cotton Tree officers are actively involved in supporting this work as near Colne. This is providing increased flood protection part of their roles. to 77 properties. In Earby, the Environment Agency is The Environment Agency allocates other officers to undertaking culvert repairs to protect up to 40 properties regulate and permit these activities on a local site by site from flooding. It is also refurbishing or replacing 10 basis, subject to the scale of the operation and regulatory debris screens to ensure nearby properties are adequately need. The Environment Agency estimates that there are protected from flooding from culverts. currently approximately 40 officers involved in this work The Environment Agency has commissioned Jeremy across England and Wales. However, these officers Benn Associates to computer model watercourses to undertake a wide range of different regulatory roles and assess gravel accumulation. Results of this modelling are not solely dedicated to regulating and permitting are expected in April and will enable more effective shale activities. flood risk management in the area. At the end of February 2012, the Environment Agency Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for will be launching five new flood warning areas that will Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many people serve a total of 1,216 commercial and residential properties. were employed in the Environment Agency in each year The Environment Agency works closely with Lancashire since 2008; and how many she expects the agency to county council (the lead local flood authority) and employ in each year to 2015. [96861] Pendle borough council. There are regular meetings to exchange information on flooding issues and on the Richard Benyon: The number of staff employed by implementation of the Flood and Water Management the Environment Agency, expressed as ″Full Time Act. Equivalents″ (FTE) can be found in the following table: Fly-tipping: Cycling Staff employed by the Environment Agency each financial year since 2008 (FTE) Mark Menzies: To ask the Secretary of State for Total FTE Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Financial Year (including Wales) Wales only FTE representations her Department has received on fly-tipping; 2007-08 12,499 1,085 and whether her Department has assessed the effects of fly-tipping on cyclists. [96323] 2008-09 13,372 1,147 2009-10 13,244 1,085 Richard Benyon: DEFRA has received a number of 2010-11 11,543 1,032 official representations on fly-tipping from members of the public, private landowners, enforcement authorities and others as part of the call for evidence ahead of the Environment Agency staff numbers projection up to 2015 (FTE) waste policy review. These were translated into a number Total FTE Financial Year (including Wales) Wales only FTE of actions in the final waste policy review action plan, including introducing stronger powers to seize the vehicles 2011-12 11,562 1,057 of suspected offenders, working with the court authorities 2012-13 11,386 1— on increased sentencing and considering the issues around 2013-14 11,211 1— fly-tipping on private land. 2014-15 11,092 1— We received representations on fly-tipping on farmland 1 Projection is not currently available at the regional level. as part of the independent Farm Regulation Task Force Report and have very recently published the Government Fisheries response to its recommendations. We have actively invited views on fly-tipping from interested parties via the Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for National Fly-tipping Prevention Group. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her No specific assessment has been carried out of the Department received any external advice on the prospect effects of fly-tipping on cyclists. 355W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 356W

Food: Packaging member states but not in the UK, because they are not suitable for, or relevant to, our circumstances. As such, Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for the seed is not being marketed here. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is In addition to the above, over forty types of GM crop taking to reduce the use of packaging in the food have been licensed by the EU for use as food or feed industry. [96201] products, but not as seed for cultivation. Full details are available at: Richard Benyon: DEFRA is working with food retailers http://ec.europa.eu/food/dyna/gm_register/index_en.cfm and manufacturers to reduce waste via Phase 2 of The Courtauld Commitment, a responsibility deal with the Currently, three types of GM crop are authorised to grocery retail sector. This includes a target to reduce the be grown for research purposes in field trials in England. carbon impact of grocery packaging by 10% by the end These are a nematode-resistant potato, a blight-resistant of 2012 (by reducing packaging, recycling more or potato and an aphid-repellent wheat. increasing the recycled content of this packaging). Landfill In December 2011, WRAP published results covering the first year of Courtauld Phase 2, 2009-10. These revealed that we have made good progress towards the David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for target on packaging, with a reduction of 5.1% in emissions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the minimum associated with packaging in the first year of the agreement. permitted membrane thickness of a landfill site is; and We are also working with industry, the Devolved what steps she would expect the Environment Agency Administrations and the Waste and Resources Action to take if a membrane is found to be below the minimum Programme to develop a new voluntary agreement with permitted thickness. [96100] the hospitality and food service sector. This agreement will seek to reduce food and packaging waste and deal Richard Benyon: The EU Landfill Directive specifies with the waste that does arise, more sustainably. We aim the requirements for bottom liners in landfills. Protection to launch this agreement in the spring. of soil, groundwater and surface water is achieved by Food: Waste the combination of a geological barrier and a bottom liner. The landfill base and sides must consist of a mineral layer or artificially established geological barrier Simon Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for that satisfies permeability and thickness requirements Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if the Government laid down for different classes of landfill site. will set a date by which it intends to achieve its long-term vision that no food waste is sent to landfill sites. [97119] The minimum thickness of geomembranes used at landfill sites is not set down in regulations but depends Richard Benyon: We have not set a specific date to on the nature of the site and the wastes accepted. As a achieve our long-term vision of sending no food waste general rule, 2 mm is used for the base and sides and to landfill. 1 mm for the cap. However, we are working towards this vision by A single measurement below the minimum thickness helping consumers waste less and save money through would trigger no action, but if the membrane was found the waste and resources action programme’s (WRAP) frequently to be below the minimum thickness on delivery ‘Love Food Hate Waste’ campaign, working with the to the site it would be rejected. If it was found to be food industry to improve products and practices through unacceptable after installation, the Environment Agency the Courtauld Commitment, and developing the evidence would generally require the site operator to provide base on food waste causes and quantities. We are also a risk assessment to determine what impact on the working with WRAP and the devolved Administrations environment the reduced thickness of the geomembrane to develop a new voluntary agreement with the hospitality would have. If the impact was negligible, the Environment and food service sector to reduce food and packaging Agency might allow the geomembrane to stay in situ; if waste and to manage the waste that does arise more not, the Environment Agency would require its removal sustainably. and replacement.

Genetically Modified Organisms: Crops David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what level of Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for insurance her Department requires companies who (a) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many operate on and (b) operate landfill sites to hold in strains of genetically modified crops are licensed for respect of environmental damage. [96103] use in the UK. [96207] Richard Benyon: There is currently no specific legal Mr Paice: Three types of genetically modified (GM) requirement under the Environmental Damage (Prevention crop have been licensed by the European Union (EU) and Remediation) Regulations 2009 to hold insurance for commercial cultivation: in respect of ’environmental damage’ within the meaning Monsanto MON 810 insect-resistant maize of those regulations. Bayer T25 herbicide-tolerant maize For non-landfill waste management activities, the BASF EH92-5271 amylopectin industrial starch potato Environment Agency only issues an environmental permit T25 maize seed has not been marketed anywhere in if it is satisfied that the operator is capable of meeting the EU and is not expected to be for the foreseeable the obligations under the permit. The Environment future. The other two crops have been grown in some Agency makes a risk-based assessment of whether the 357W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 358W operator has any current or past insolvency and/or Richard Benyon: DEFRA does not make such estimates. bankruptcy proceedings, and performs a credit check Local authorities are best placed to determine the waste (or undertakes further investigations) where appropriate. management needs in their areas. Under the EU Landfill Under the EU Landfill Directive, there is a requirement Directive, the UK is required to reduce the amount of that operators have made adequate provisions by way waste sent to landfill to 50% by 2013. The UK wide of financial security to meet the obligations arising landfill target for 2013 is 17.8 million tonnes. We are on under their environmental permit and the provisions of track to meeting this target. the directive. This includes provision for the closure and Landfill: North West long-term aftercare needed for most landfill sites. The grant of an environmental permit for a landfill David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for site is subject to the need for the operator to make Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate financial provision that must be ’adequate’ to discharge she has made of the likely total volume of waste going the obligations under the permit for as long as is required. to landfill produced by (a) Merseyside, (b) Greater This means that the provision has to be: sufficient (in Manchester, (c) the borough of Warrington, (d) the monetary terms) to meet the obligations of the permit; borough of Halton and (e) the borough of Wigan in secure for the duration of the permit; and available each of the next 15 years. [96101] when required to discharge permit obligations. Richard Benyon: DEFRA does not make such estimates. Landfill: Arpley Local authorities are best placed to determine the waste management needs in their areas. Under the EU Landfill David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for Directive, the UK is required to reduce the amount of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her waste sent to landfill to 50% by 2013. The UK wide Department has put in place to (a) monitor and (b) landfill target for 2013 is 17.8 million tonnes. We are on minimise emissions of (i) inorganic compounds, (ii) track to meeting this target. dioxin and (iii) non-methane organic compounds at Marine Stewardship Council: Consumers Arpley landfill (A) site and (B) gas generator; what assessment she has made of the merits of taking further such steps; and if she will make a statement. Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for [96102] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will assess the effect of Marine Stewardship Council certification Richard Benyon: Environmental permits issued by the on consumer behaviour. [97280] Environment Agency for landfill sites have strict controls for managing and minimising landfill gas emissions Richard Benyon: The report “Attitudes and Behaviours (including trace constituents) from the landfill. The around Sustainable Food Purchasing”, published by primary control measures include installation of gas DEFRA in April 2011, examines the issue of consumer collection systems within the waste mass, capping completed attitudes to Marine Stewardship Council (MSC) certified areas and burning the collected gas within engines to fish. A copy of this report is available on the DEFRA produce electricity, which is exported to the National website. Grid. One of the projects funded as part of the Greener The emissions from the gas engines are monitored Living Fund (GLF), “MSC on the Menu”, looked at periodically for a range of substances. Emission limits raising consumer awareness of MSC at selected certified are set in the permit to ensure that statutory environmental sites, such as restaurants and places of employment. quality standards are met. The permit also requires the The focus of this work package was to develop ‘point control of the combustion process to minimise emissions of sale’ materials and explore their effectiveness in and ensure that they do not impact on human health or promoting sustainable choices. The GLF evaluation the environment. The low concentration of chlorinated report is due to be published later this year. compounds in the landfill gas and the combustion conditions mean that the monitoring of dioxin from the Members: Correspondence gas utilisation plant is not required. In accordance with Environment Agency guidance, Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for monitoring for non-methane volatile organic compounds Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects is no longer carried out. A recent review of the landfill to answer the hon. Member for Harrow West’s letter gas risk assessment for the Arpley Landfill Site concluded about the answering of a parliamentary question on that the emissions would not exceed the relevant senior staff being paid through a private company. environmental quality standard at any of the designated [97108] receptors. Richard Benyon: The hon. Member for Harrow West can expect an answer to his letter shortly, in line with Landfill: Lancashire the Department’s 15-working day target for replying to correspondence from hon. Members. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will Morocco: Fishery Agreements estimate the likely total volume of waste going to landfill produced in (a) Pendle constituency, (b) East Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Lancashire and (c) Lancashire in each of the next Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what reference is 15 years. [96560] made to Western Sahara in the documents provided by 359W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 360W

Morocco on the effect on the Saharawi people of the Richard Benyon: Waste recovery and disposal operations, EU-Morocco Fisheries Partnership Agreement. [95630] including incineration, are subject to the requirement for a permit under EU Waste Framework Directive Richard Benyon: There was no specific mention of (2008/98/EC), the principal purpose of which is to Western Sahara in the information provided by Morocco. prevent harm to human health and the environment. Some of the information could be related to the area, This requirement is met in England and Wales through such as investments in a particular port, but other the environmental permitting regime. The Environment information was provided on a province by province Agency is the regulator for the determination of applications basis and the borders of the provinces do not coincide for environmental permits and carries out inspection exactly with those of Western Sahara. and other forms of compliance assessment of permitted facilities. Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Incineration plants are additionally obliged to meet Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will ask the stringent emission requirements of the Waste the European Commission to consult representatives of Incineration Directive (WID) (2000/76/EC) and, for the Saharawi population on the proposed EU-Morocco those with an incineration capacity exceeding three Fisheries Partnership Agreement. [95632] tonnes an hour, the Integrated Pollution Prevention and Control Directive (2008/1/EC) which requires the operation Richard Benyon: As part of normal discussions in to be carried out in accordance with best available negotiating new fisheries partnership agreements we techniques. would expect the Commission to seek assurances that local fishing communities benefit from such agreements. In the case of the proposed EU-Morocco agreement Rhydymwyn Valley this would include those representing the Saharawi population. Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs by what date she Pesticides plans to publish the final vision document for the future of the Rhydymwyn Valley site. [96174] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether the Chemical Richard Benyon: DEFRA has no plan to publish a Regulation Directorate applies the precautionary principle paper or statement on the future of the Rhydymwyn when (a) assessing the risks of the use of pesticides to site. DEFRA will continue to manage the site to fulfil the environment and (b) appraising new research relevant its obligations under the Chemical Weapons Convention to such risks; and if she will make a statement. [97170] Declaration and its obligations as site owner. Richard Benyon: Commission Communication (2000)1 of 2 February 2000 outlines the European Commission’s Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for approach to using the precautionary principle and Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what representations establishes, among other aims, Commission guidelines she has received from organisations on the future of the for applying it. These guidelines recognise that one way Rhydymwyn Valley site since 1 January 2011. [96175] of applying the precautionary principle is through the Community rules for prior approval of certain products, Richard Benyon: DEFRA has received no formal such as pesticides, before they are placed on the market. written representations on the future of the Rhydymwyn In authorising pesticide products in the UK under the site since 1 January 2011. EU rules for national authorisations, the Chemicals DEFRA has received and responded to various Regulation Directorate (CRD) assesses the products to correspondence since 1 January 2011 relating to operational ensure the risks that can arise from use of these products issues on site. Within this dialogue, groups have set out are acceptable and that these risks can be managed their aspirations in respect of their specific relationship effectively. with the site. Views expressed generally seek to promote The CRD reviews relevant new research findings nature conservation or the history of the site. Views against the framework of the regulatory risk assessment have also been expressed against any intensification of and, where appropriate, discusses them with other pesticide use for any purpose. regulators and in international forums. Relevant research The general correspondence includes the following would also be considered by the Advisory Committee topics—the site access policy, access to the tunnels, an on Pesticides which provides independent scientific advice All Ability Bike scheme, correspondence with the on pesticide authorisations in the UK. Community Council, maintenance of the buildings, The CRD will continue to be involved with the management of controlled plants, the Historic Building development of risk assessment methodology and keeps survey and filming on site. abreast of developments in this area. It will continue to consider relevant studies as they arise. Officials from the Department also met with a number of stakeholders in February 2011 to discuss their concerns Pollution: Incinerators and encouraged the groups to co-operate and form a consensus view between the groups to inform a way Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for forward acceptable to all. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is taking to ensure that pollution from the incinerators Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for constructed by Veolia in the UK are effectively Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects regulated and monitored. [96272] the next meeting of the joint consultative committee 361W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 362W for the Rhydymwyn Valley site to take place; who the 2015. The complementary Rural Community Broadband current members and chair of the committee are; and Fund operated by DEFRA under the Rural Development when the Joint Consultative Board last met. [96176] programme for England is targeted at the 10% of communities that will otherwise receive only standard Richard Benyon: It is not intended that the Government broadband. hold any further meetings of the Joint Consultative DEFRA is not funding standard broadband since Board (JCB) for the Rhydymwyn Valley site. The board that would involve us duplicating one of the key aims of does therefore not have a current confirmed membership. the main fund operated by Broadband Delivery UK. The last meeting was held on 14 July 2009 and had representatives from: Rural Areas: Private Finance Initiative DEFRA (Chair) North East Wales Wildlife Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Rhydymwyn Valley History Society (formerly Valley History Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Society) discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the Rhual Estate Exchequer on funding for a second round of Rural Interserve Growth Network pilots. [97311] Friends of Rhydymwyn Valley Richard Benyon: The intention to support around six Grosvenor Caving Club pilot Rural Growth Networks was one of the package Walkabout Flintshire of Rural Economy Growth Review measures announced British Trust for Ornithology as part of the autumn statement by the Chancellor of Mold and District Civic Society the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd Badger Group Tatton (Mr Osborne), on 29 November 2011, Official Cilcain Community Council. Report, columns 799-810. We are currently focused on setting up those pilots and, as such, no discussions have Groups who offered apologies for the meeting included: taken place concerning the possibility of a second round. Reptile Recorder Clwyd Powys Archaeological Trust. Scallops River Rom: Conservation Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for answer of 20 February 2012, Official Report, column Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what conservation 499W,on scallops, whether the conditions for (a) seeking work her Department has carried out on the River a reallocation of effort from Area VI and VII and (b) Rom; and what future work is planned. [96205] increasing effort in Area VII were on the agenda of meetings with the European Commission; and when Richard Benyon: In 2011, three projects were completed these issues were last discussed. [96476] on the Rom, which becomes the River Beam at the Chase Nature Reserve. A natural connection of the Richard Benyon: There have been no recent discussions river with its flood plain was made at Collier Road on these issues. Flood Storage Area, and wetland scrapes were created there. A backwater was created at Chase Nature Reserve Seas and Oceans: Technology to provide fish refuge in times of high flow. The river was restored through Beam Parklands and in excess of Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for 12ha of UK Priority Biodiversity Action Plan habitat Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment was created. her Department has made of the potential effect of Work planned on the river involves the removal of a emergent technologies on (a) coastlines and the seabed, weir at Beam Valley Country Park for the benefit of (b) marine mammals and seabirds and (c) human habitat and improved fish passage. Recently plans have communities in development areas. [96856] been discussed with Havering borough council to significantly improve the river from Roneo Corner to Richard Benyon: In the “Productive Seas” chapter of the Chase, a length of 1.5km. Concrete removal and “Charting Progress 2” and the associated feeder report, river re-naturalising are being discussed. A Catchment available on the DEFRA website, the principle activities Plan that includes the Rom is due to be completed by occurring in the marine environment are described, December 2012. together with an assessment of the environmental pressures they pose, their consequent impacts and the associated Rural Areas: Broadband management measures that have been taken.

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Third Sector Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what funding her Department provides for the provision of broadband Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for other than superfast broadband in rural areas. [96195] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Department has taken to implement the principles of Richard Benyon: The Government’s £530 million the Best Value Statutory Guidance in respect of (a) investment in the rollout of broadband to rural areas is giving at least three months’ notice to voluntary and aimed at providing standard broadband to all premises community organisations and their service users when and superfast broadband to at least 90% of premises by reducing or ending funding, (b) engaging with voluntary 363W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 364W and community organisations and service users as early Richard Benyon: Ofwat is the economic regulator of as possible before making a decision on the future of the water and sewerage sectors in England and Wales. the service, any knock-on effects on assets used to Since privatisation in 1989, a total of approximately provide this service and the wider impact on the local £98 billion of capital expenditure has been spent by the community and (c) making provision for voluntary water and sewerage sector on improving services. and community organisations and service users to put Data showing each companies’ total capital expenditure forward options on how to reshape the service or project. within England and Wales since privatisation has been [95788] placed in the House Library. These figures include both improvements to water and sewerage networks and Richard Benyon: The Best Value guidance does not other capital assets since privatisation. legally apply to central Government Departments or their executive agencies. Water: Pollution However, as the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my right hon. Friend the Member Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), made clear in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what safeguards his foreword to the revised Best Value guidance, central exist to ensure that traces of cytotoxic drugs do not Government Departments support the fair standards enter the water supply chain. [96912] set out in the guidance and have reaffirmed their commitment to the national Compact. The issues raised Richard Benyon: The drinking water regulations were are covered by the Compact. changed at the end of 2007 to introduce a continuous In January the National Audit Office published ‘Central process of risk assessment by water companies for the Government’s implementation of the national Compact’; presence of substances that may pose a potential risk to this report provides commentary on the implementation human health in raw water at each point of abstraction. of the national Compact across Government. DEFRA Companies must monitor raw water, mitigate identified participated fully in the National Audit Office’s review hazards and notify the Drinking Water Inspectorate of and will be following up, as appropriate, the the outcomes of risk assessments. The Chief Inspector recommendations set out in the National Audit Office of Drinking Water has the power to impose additional report, in order to ensure that the Department continues mitigation steps or, exceptionally, to require that a to be a strong model of collaborative working between supply is shut down. Government and the voluntary sector. To support these industry risk assessments, the Drinking Water Inspectorate, in association with the Health Water Companies Protection Agency, carries out national risk assessments for new and emerging drinking water hazards, and Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for commissions supporting independent studies, funded Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate and published by DEFRA. This regime for safeguarding she has made of the cost of the infrastructure needed drinking water quality and health introduced into law to connect neighbouring water companies. [97093] the water safety plan approach which comprises global best practice as published by the World Health Organisation Richard Benyon: At present around 650 Ml/d of water in its ‘Guidelines on Drinking Water Quality: Chapter is transferred between water companies which represent Four’. some 5% of the total amount of water put into the water supply system. The water White Paper stated that West Africa: Fisheries companies would be expected to have explored all options for balancing supply and demand in their water resource management plans, including interconnectivity within Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for and across company boundaries and opportunities for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her trading water. Department provides funding to governments in West Africa to help them protect their waters from illegal However, modelling work by Ofwat has suggested fishing. [95849] that, nationally, water companies could save an estimated £960 million (net present value) by making better use of Richard Benyon: DEFRA provides no direct funding interconnections rather than developing local resource to West African Governments to help protect their solutions. Work by the Water Resources in the South waters from illegal fishing. However, the United Kingdom East group, which represents the water companies of has played, and continues to play, a full part in supporting the south-east, has estimated that, by 2035, net benefits and encouraging capacity building in West African of £501 million could be achieved in the south-east states. Examples of this include participation in 2011 in alone at a cost of £262 million NPV from better sharing a Maritime Security Conference organised by the of resources. International Maritime Organisation and Maritime Organisation of West and Central Africa, the involvement Water Supply: Finance of national fisheries control experts in projects in Senegal, Sierra Leone and Ghana and hosting West African Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for fisheries officials in the UK fisheries operations room Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate and Fishery Monitoring Centres. DEFRA has also she has made of spending (a) by each water company recently sponsored an event at Chatham House on and (b) in each constituent part of the UK on illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing, which was improvements to (i) the network of water and sewerage attended by representatives from several West African pipes and (ii) other capital assets since 1991. [96328] states. 365W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 366W

Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Average waiting times—employment and support allowance Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is June 2009 to June 2010 to taking to encourage a sustainable EU policy towards May 2010 May 2011 the exploitation of West African fish stocks through Average time in weeks from 7.2 8.1 third party agreements. [95851] submission to DWP to receipt at HMCTS Richard Benyon: As UK Fisheries Minister, I hold Average time in weeks from 15.0 21.0 regular discussions on fisheries partnership agreements, receipt at HMCTS to first the revision of which forms a key element to the wider hearing reform of the common fisheries policy (CFP). I most Notes: 1. The above data is taken from management information. recently discussed this with Commissioner Damanaki 2. The data regarding the time from when an appeal is submitted to earlier this month and with key interests at a DEFRA the DWP until it is received by HMCTS is taken from HMCTS’ funded conference at Chatham House. Discussions continue database and relies on the date of submission provided by DWP. The and the external dimension of the CFP is scheduled at Tribunal does not measure the time from receipt at DWP to receipt the Fisheries Council on 19 March. at HMCTS and the averages have been calculated by subtracting the time from receipt at HMCTS to first hearing from the total average Western Sahara: Fisheries time. HMCTS is working hard to increase the capacity of Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the SSCS Tribunal and reduce waiting times. It has Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what reports she implemented a range of measures including securing has received of British trawlers using flags of additional hearing rooms; increasing the number of convenience to fish in the waters off western Sahara. cases listed in each session; increasing the number of [95631] sessions held; streamlining its administrative processes; running double shifts in its largest processing centre so Richard Benyon: I am aware that a very small number that more appeals can be processed each day; running of UK fishing vessels have previously fished in the Saturday sittings in some of the busiest venues (where waters off western Sahara under the flags of other there is demand and where it is feasible); setting up a countries in order to obtain some more fish quota. customer contact centre to deal with telephone enquiries While they are entitled to do this, I understand they are for the processing sites, freeing up other staff to focus now back under the UK flag. on processing appeals and arranging hearings; and recruiting more judges and panel members to hear Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for more appeals. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps the All of this is having a positive effect. The number of Government is taking to ensure that trawlers from EU disposals has increased significantly from 279,000 in member states fishing off the coast of West Africa act 2009-10 to 380,000 in 2010-11 and the tribunal will in accordance with the provisions of third party dispose of over 435,000 appeals this year, with the fisheries agreements. [95848] capacity for half a million disposals in 2012-13. Disposals outstripped receipts for the ten months between January Richard Benyon: UK ensures that all fish imported 2011 and October 2011, and the number of cases waiting from West Africa are caught in accordance with the to be heard reduced by over 35,000 between April and requirements of fisheries partnership agreements through October. The average waiting time has stabilised nationally, the checking of catch certificates. We are also working and is beginning to fall in many venues. within the common fisheries policy reform process to ensure that measures governing vessels fishing under such agreements are strengthened to ensure more sustainable Barristers: Pay and well managed fisheries. Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice which 10 barristers’ Chambers earned the most JUSTICE from criminal legal aid in the last year; and how much they earned. [96312] Appeals: Employment and Support Allowance Mr Djanogly: The information is not held. The Legal Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Services Commission (LSC) does not pay Chambers for Justice what the average length of time was between an the provision of legal aid work. The LSC pay individual applicant lodging an appeal against a decision on barristers directly, except where a barrister is either entitlement to employment and support allowance and employed by a solicitor firm or paid by a solicitor firm the appeal being heard between (a) June 2009 and as part of a disbursement under legal aid. May 2010 and (b) June 2010 and May 2011. [97353]

Mr Djanogly: Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Children: Custody Service (HMCTS) hears appeals against Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) decisions on entitlement Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for to employment and support allowance (ESA). Justice how many children have been returned to the The following table shows the average time taken UK voluntarily following wrongful retention by a from submission of an appeal to the DWP until the parent living abroad in each year between 2002 and date of the first appeal hearing at HMCTS for ESA appeals. 2012. [97276] 367W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 368W

Mr Djanogly: The information available for cases of Mr Djanogly: Under the Ministry of Justice, Her voluntary return to England and Wales, Scotland and Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service (HMCTS) has Northern Ireland under the 1980 Hague convention on employed the following approximate total number of the civil aspects of international child abduction is set security staff (security guards/supervisors) across its out in the following table. Cases can involve more than courts and tribunals sites: one child. Statistics on voluntary returns do not show whether the abduction was a wrongful removal or wrongful Number retention. 2009 1,632 Cases of voluntary return of children removed from: 2010 1,641 England and Northern 2011 1,463 Wales Scotland Ireland

2002 29 2—1However, for reasons of operational security it is 2003 49 2—2inappropriate to detail the exact number of security 2004 47 2—0staff employed by each individual court and tribunal 2005 44 2—0site. 2 2006 42 —1Criminal Proceedings: Translation Services 2007 56 2—1 2008 59 2—1 2009 58 2 0 Mr Leech: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2010 36 4 0 how many interpreters on the National Register of 2011 1—030 Public Service Interpreters have worked for his Department 1 Not yet available under its framework agreement with Applied Language 2 Not available Solutions since August 2011. [96325] 3 Provisional Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice began using services Courts: Crimes of Violence under its contract with Applied Language Services in December 2011. The information requested is not held Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for by the Ministry of Justice. Interpreters provided under Justice how many violent incidents were recorded in this contract must have appropriate qualifications. each (a) court and (b) tribunal in (i) 2009, (ii) 2010 and (iii) 2011. [97059] Death Certificates

Mr Djanogly: The number of violent incidents reported Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for in courts and tribunals are as follows: Justice what assessment he has made of the case for 2009-10: 213 bringing forward legislative proposals for England based 2010-11: 197 on the Presumption of Death (Scotland) Act 1977 to create a single certificate in the event of a person being 2011-12 (April to November 2011): 71. presumed dead. [97250] It is not possible to provide a breakdown for each court and tribunal for the years requested as courts and Mr Djanogly: We are currently considering the tribunals operate out of approximately 650 locations. recommendations for the creation of a certificate of Providing these data would be labour intensive, time presumed death made by the Justice Select Committee consuming and result in a disproportionate cost. in its report of 22 February 2012 on ‘Presumption of As with question 96705, the figures provided comprise Death’ and by the All-Party Parliamentary Group for reported incidents from the reporting periods April to Runaway and Missing Children and Adults in the report March and resulting in actual violence. This includes of its inquiry into support for families of missing persons include incidents between and against parties, court and published in July 2011. We hope to announce our initial tribunal users and Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunal conclusions in our response to the Select Committee Service staff and contractors. These figures do not report. include verbal abuse or threats, nor any violent incident which took place off HMCTS premises while staff were Departmental Internet undertaking official duties. My Department takes the security of all court users Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for seriously and it is the policy of Her Majesty’s Courts Justice what public services his Department delivers and Tribunals Service that all security incidents are online only. [96898] reported and investigated. All incidents involving violence are reported to the police for further investigation. Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice does not deliver any public services online only. Courts: Security Employment Tribunals Service Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many security staff were employed by Her Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service in (a) 2009, Justice how many (a) unpaid employment tribunal (b) 2010 and (c) 2011 by each individual court and awards and (b) unpaid ACAS settlements were passed tribunal. [97058] to High Court Enforcement Officers in (i) 2010-11 and 369W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 370W

(ii) 2011-12 to date; how many of these unpaid awards Table 1.1: Employment Tribunal receipts since 2000-01 and settlements have been fully enforced; how many Multiple claim could not be enforced; and how many cases remain Singles1 Multiples1 cases1 unresolved. [96828] 2002-03 68,000 30,700 5,000 2003-04 65,700 49,400 5,000 Mr Djanogly: In financial year (FY) 2010-11, 1407 2004-05 55,600 30,600 4,600 unpaid employment tribunal awards and 88 unpaid 2005-06 51,300 63,100 5,900 ACAS settlements were passed to High Court Enforcement 2006-07 54,100 78,600 6,700 Officers (HCEOs). In FY 2011-12 to date, the figure for 2007-082 54,500 134,800 6,600 unpaid employment tribunal awards passed to HCEOs is 1304, and for ACAS settlements it is 172. 2008-09 62,400 88,700 7,400 2009-10 71,300 164,800 7,400 Regarding the successful enforcement or otherwise , 2010-11 60,600 157,500 5,900 the Ministry of Justice (MOJ) does not hold figures 1 Figures for singles and multiples prior to 2006-07 are provisional as centrally which specifically relate to HCEOs performance a breakdown was not provided at the time the original information data on these cases. Data is supplied on a quarterly was published. basis to MOJ which covers all enforcement cases not 2 Figures for 2007-08 are provisional due to issues over how multiple just employment tribunal and ACAS. An exercise is claims were counted. currently underway for this data to be extracted and be Source: ET Annual reports and ET Database available by the end of April 2012. I will write to you Table 1.2: Employment Tribunal Quarterly Multiple Receipts 2011-12 once this exercise is complete. Claims Cases Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Q1 32,900 — Justice (1) how many (a) single claims, (b) multiple Q2 25,000 — claims and (c) multiple claim cases were accepted by Source: employment tribunals in each year since 2000-01; Quarterly Statistics for the Tribunals. Data are not held on the [96829] number of ‘multiple claim cases’ within the Quarters. There can be some movement in claim designations between single and multiple (2) how many (a) multiple claims and (b) multiple claims during the first six months of a claims life so the information claim cases were accepted by employment tribunals in currently held will not be accurate. Once reconciliation is carried out each quarter of 2011-12 to date. [96830] for the Annual Report, it will be possible to provide a consistent set of data. This will be carried out in June 2012. Mr Djanogly: Claims to employment tribunals may be classified into two broad categories: singles and EU Staff: Corruption multiples. Multiples claims are where two or more people bring claims, involving one or more jurisdiction(s), and Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice usually against a single employer (but not necessarily how many EU officials were convicted of corruption so, for instance in transfer of undertaking cases). To be offences in the UK in each of the last five years; and joined in a multiple, individual claims must arise out of what assessment his Department has made of the the same or very similar circumstances. As a multiple, effectiveness of the 1997 EU Convention designed to the component claims are processed, and judicially fight corruption involving officials of the European managed, together. Union or national officials of member states of the Statistics published quarterly and annually by Her European Union since its introduction. [97222] Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service provide a breakdown of claims received (or ’accepted’) and concluded Mr Kenneth Clarke: The Ministry of Justice Court (or ’disposed’). Since the financial year 2006-07, this Proceedings Database holds information on offences breakdown has included that between single and multiple provided by the statutes under which proceedings are claims. These statistics can be found online: brought, but not the specific circumstances of each http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ case. Therefore it is not possible to identify from centrally tribunals/employment-tribunal-and-eat-statistics-gb.htm held information whether and, if so, how many EU For the purposes of this answer, we have defined officials were convicted of corruption offences in the ’multiple claims’ as the individual component claims UK. brought or handled within a multiple; and ’multiple UK law meets the standards of the 1997 EU convention claim cases’ as the combined groupings formed by the on the fight against corruption involving officials of the component claims. European Union or national officials of member states The following tables set out the number of singles, of the European Union by virtue of the Bribery Act multiples, and ’multiple claim cases’ accepted in each 2010. An assessment has not been made at national financial year for which data is available since 2000-01; level about the overall effectiveness of the convention. and the number of multiples accepted in each quarter of 2011-12 for which data are available. Information on the number of ‘multiple claim cases’ for each quarter of Judicial Conduct 2011/12 will not be available until later in the year. Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Table 1.1: Employment Tribunal receipts since 2000-01 Justice what assessment he has made of the relationship Multiple claim Singles1 Multiples1 cases1 between the Judicial Appointments and Conduct Ombudsman and the Office of Judicial Complaints; 2000-01 77,800 52,200 5,100 and whether there is a duplication between those two 2001-02 70,900 41,100 5,100 offices in relation to judicial conduct. [97307] 371W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 372W

Mr Kenneth Clarke: Judicial Appointments and Conduct Number Ombudsman (JACO) are laid out in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005 which created them. Rape 295 The OJC considers all complaints about Judicial Other sexual offences 476 Office holders, including recommendations on disciplinary Robbery 963 action against magistrates and tribunal office holders Arson 203 made through local investigations. The JACO considers Other offences 303 the process the OJC adopted when handling the complaint, to identify any maladministration with a view to improving These figures have been drawn from administrative complaint handling by the OJC. IT systems which, as with any large scale recording The Ombudsman has no remit to consider the original system, are subject to possible errors with data entry complaint about the judge’s conduct, nor can he review and processing. the merits of OJC decisions. This separation in each Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for body’s remit ensures that there is no duplication between Justice how many prisoners serving (a) an indeterminate these two offices in relation to judicial conduct. sentence for public protection (IPP) and (b) a life sentence Legal Aid Scheme have been directed to be (i) released and (ii) transferred to a Category D prison since May 2010; and for what offences they had been sentenced to the IPP or life Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for sentence. [96061] Justice what the budget for criminal legal aid was in the last year. [96313] Mr Blunt: The following tables show the numbers of indeterminate sentenced prisoners released by the Mr Djanogly: There is no separate budget for criminal independent Parole Board between 1 May 2010 and legal aid; funding forms part of the overall legal aid 30 September 2011 (the most recent data currently provision. In cash terms, spending on criminal legal aid available), by offence for which they were sentenced: was £1,165 million in 2010-11. IPPs Legal Profession: Pay Number Manslaughter 10 Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Other homicide and attempted 11 Justice which 25 lawyers earned the most from criminal homicide legal aid in the last year; and how much they earned. Other violence against the person 112 [96311] Rape 7 Other sexual offences 20 Mr Djanogly: The information is not readily available. Robbery 73 Additionally, the amounts paid to individual solicitors Arson 17 are not known as the Legal Services Commission (LSC) Other offences 15 contracts with firms of solicitors, rather than individual Total 265 solicitors. Life sentences Given the level of public interest, officials now produce Number a list of highest paid barristers and solicitor firms each year. This work will be published in due course and I Murder 209 will write to the hon. Member once my officials have Manslaughter 13 published the data. Other homicide and attempted 5 homicide Prison Sentences Other violence against the person 41 Rape 10 Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Robbery 15 Justice for what offences prisoners were serving an Arson 2 indeterminate sentence for public protection (IPP) who Other offences 9 have served longer than their minimum tariff in the Total 304 period since the introduction of that sentence. [96055] The requested data on the number of indeterminate Mr Blunt: As at 31 December 2011 a total of 3,489 sentenced prisoners transferred to a Category D prison prisoners serving an indeterminate sentence for public are not held centrally and could be provided only at protection had passed their tariff expiry date. The following disproportionate cost. table shows a breakdown of these prisoners by offence: These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with any large scale recording Number system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Total 3,489 Prisoners Manslaughter 72 Paul Uppal: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Other homicide and attempted 130 homicide if he will provide a breakdown of the prison population (a) (b) (c) Other violence against the person 1,047 by race, age and gender in the latest period for which figures are available. [97098] 373W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 374W

Mr Blunt: The following table shows the breakdown These figures have been drawn from administrative of the prison population in England and Wales as at 31 IT systems which, as with any large scale recording December 2011 (latest available). system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing.

Population in prison establishments by sex, ethnicity and age, 31 December 2011, England and Wales Asian or Black or Asian Black Chinese or Age group White Mixed British British Other Not stated Unrecorded Total

Males: 15-17 767 136 118 336 15 2 40 1,414 18-20 4,963 476 549 1,303 80 13 172 7,556 21-24 9,193 729 1,058 2,045 126 22 352 13,525 25-29 10,206 595 1,437 2,031 158 26 395 14,848 30-39 15,481 658 2,037 2,740 253 34 559 21,762 40-49 10,700 300 786 1,857 136 29 300 14,108 50-59 4,787 92 278 557 49 11 87 5,861 60 and over 2,797 13 77 100 12 12 27 3,038 Total 58,894 2,999 6,340 10,969 829 149 1,932 82,112

Females: 15-17 16 5 2 300430 18-20 227 20 7 32204292 21-24 429 34 21 59 7 0 12 562 25-29 564 34 26 105 8 0 11 748 30-39 937 54 39 159 21 0 13 1,223 40-49 605 22 34 113 18 1 15 808 50-59 237 8 22 41802318 60andover6306711179 Total 3,078 177 157 519 65 2 62 4,060

Males and Females: 15-17 783 141 120 339 15 2 44 1,444 18-20 5,190 496 556 1,335 82 13 176 7,848 21-24 9,622 763 1,079 2,104 133 22 364 14,087 25-29 10,770 629 1,463 2,136 166 26 406 15,596 30-39 16,418 712 2,076 2,899 274 34 572 22,985 40-49 11,305 322 820 1,970 154 30 315 14,916 50-59 5,024 100 300 598 57 11 89 6,179 60 and over 2,860 13 83 107 13 13 28 3,117 Total 61,972 3,176 6,497 11,488 894 151 1,994 86,172

Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Providing a figure for IPPs alone would incur how many prisoners serving an indeterminate sentence disproportionate costs as that data has not been retained for public protection in England and Wales were in a recorded form. In order to establish the number of assessed as suitable to be held in open conditions but prisoners serving IPP sentences at the time the snapshot were waiting to be moved to a Category D prison in the was taken, retrospective checks of individual prisoners’ latest period for which figures are available. [97196] records would have to be performed to recreate the list at the time it was generated. Mr Blunt: As at 2 December 2011, there were 492 This data is subject to variation due to progress of indeterminate sentence prisoners (ISPs) who had been individual cases including prisoners removal from open approved by the Secretary of State for transfer to open conditions following adverse developments and Parole conditions but were located in closed. This figure includes Board decisions following review. those serving a life sentence and those serving an This figure was drawn from administrative IT systems indeterminate sentence of Imprisonment for Public which, as with any large scale recording system, are Protection (IPP). subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. This figure is taken from a snapshot of data. ISPs are prioritised for transfer to open conditions using the Reoffenders date the Secretary of State approved their move. Whether prisoners are serving an IPP or a life sentence is not Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for relevant to the prioritisation criteria and as a result was Justice what steps he is taking to reduce re-offending of not, at that time, recorded as part of the process. people sentenced to one year or less in custody. [96225] 375W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 376W

Mr Blunt: The Government are committed to reducing In under-18 young offender institutions (YOIs) and re-offending to cut crime, build safer communities and secure training centres (STCs) debriefs are conducted increase public confidence in the criminal justice system. between a young person and a member of staff. This Many of the offenders who are sentenced to one year does not rely on a young person’s literacy skills and or less in custody are serial offenders with chaotic lives involves communicating with that young person based who repeatedly commit crime. The latest reoffending on their needs. Independent advocacy services are available rates for short term prisoners illustrates the urgent need in STCs and under-18 YOIs to assist young people in to tackle their re-offending, with 56.6% of adults serving resolving issues related to their welfare, care and treatment sentences of less than 12 months re-offend within one which includes supporting young people who are unable year of release. to read and write during a restraint debrief. The aim This cohort of offenders is the target of the first should always be to allow the advocate to be present if custody related pilot of our payment by results programme the young person wishes it, provided this does not result to reduce reoffending and will be an important focus of in unreasonable delays in conducting the debrief. many of the other pilots, whether managed from custody Statutory guidance for children’s homes (including or by other agencies in the community helping address secure children’s homes) requires that in any case where the cause of their offending on release. a child has been restrained, staff must make sure that As set out in “Breaking the Cycle” Green Paper and they are offered debriefing and support which might the Government Response, the Government have a also include access to advocacy if this is what the child radical new approach for working across Government wishes. This process places the responsibility on the and with the private and voluntary sectors to rehabilitate home’s staff and management to make sure that the offenders. This includes closer partnership working at child is properly debriefed and does not rely on the child the local level; getting offenders free from drug and having literacy skills. alcohol problems and addressing offenders’ mental health problems; improving offenders skills and getting them into work; and reducing barriers to resettlement. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Sentencing Apprentices Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many and what proportion of people were Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for sentenced to (a) custody and (b) community sentences Business, Innovation and Skills with reference to his in each magistrates’ court in the latest period for which Department’s press release of 6 September 2011 on figures are available; [97267] apprenticeships, what the names are of the 20 companies (2) how many and what proportion of children were which volunteered to trial payment by outcomes in sentenced to (i) custody and (ii) community sentences relation to apprenticeships; how many apprentices each in each juvenile court in the latest period for which such company has employed since September 2011; and figures are available. [97268] how many of these were (a) aged 16 to 18, (b) aged 19 to 24, (c) aged 25 and over, (d) female, (e) from a Mr Blunt: Tables showing (a) the number of persons minority ethnic background and (f) people with a proceeded against for all offences at each magistrates’ disability. [95807] court and sentenced to immediate custody and community sentences, by proportion, in England and Wales in 2010 Mr Hayes: As at 22 February 2012, 24 employers are (latest available) and (b) the number of persons proceeded taking part in the large employer pilot to test an outcome- against for all offences at each youth court and sentenced based payment system for apprenticeships. to immediate custody and community sentences, by These are listed as follows. It is not possible to proportion, in England and Wales in 2010 have been provide data on the total number of apprentices each deposited in the House library. company has employed. Annual court proceedings data for 2011 are planned Employers in large employer pilot for publication in May 2012. Employer name Young Offenders: Restraint Techniques Barchester Healthcare Bhs Ltd Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Boots Opticians professional Services Ltd what steps he has taken provide children held in the BT secure youth estate with alternative means of providing Carillion plc accounts of restraint where they are unable to read and write fluently following the coroner’s recommendation Compass Group UK and Ireland on this issue in 2007. [97310] Cordant Group plc DHL Express UK and Ireland Mr Blunt: The Government fully recognise the G4S importance of ensuring that young people in the under-18 Jarvis Training Management Ltd secure estate have an opportunity to provide an account McDonalds of events following a restraint incident, formally referred to as a ‘debrief’. The Youth Justice Board Code of National Grid Practice on Behaviour Management sets out an expectation Nestor Primecare Services Ltd that all under-18 establishments conduct debriefs with Priory Central Services Ltd young people after they have been subject to restraint. Reed 377W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 378W

Rentokil his Department has collected in the last year to ensure Select Service Partners Ltd a full picture of key business clusters. [97226] Sodexo Spirit Pub Company (Services) Ltd Mr Willetts [holding answer 28 February 2012]: The Tesco Stores Ltd Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) TUI UK and Ireland does not currently systematically collect information on key business clusters. Sector teams within BIS may Veolia Environment Development Centre Ltd produce information relating to their own areas. All key Whitbread plc reports and research pieces in this area are available Wincanton publically on the BIS website: Source: http://www.bis.gov.uk/ Skills Funding Agency Bus Services: Brighton Business: Government Assistance

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has (a) held Innovation and Skills (1) how many people have registered discussions with the Secretary of State for Transport on to receive assistance from his Department’s Get Mentoring and (b) made an assessment of how the recommendation scheme in (a) England, (b) Berkshire, (c) Reading and of the Competition Commission to introduce legislation (d) Reading West constituency since its inception; to give local transport authorities additional powers to [96961] introduce mandatory multi-operator ticketing schemes (2) how many business mentors have been recruited will affect the Big Lemon Bus service in Brighton and through his Department’s Get Mentoring scheme in Hove; and if he will make a statement. [96668] (a) England, (b) Berkshire, (c) Reading and (d) Reading West constituency since its inception. [96962] Norman Lamb: No assessment has been made of how any of the Competition Commission’s recommendations Mr Prisk: Get Mentoring is a SFEDI-led (Small arising from its Local Bus Services Market Investigation Firms Enterprise Development Initiative) project, supported would affect every local bus operator in every individual by grant funding (from both BIS and the Government local bus market. The Department for Transport’s response Equalities Office,) to recruit and train 15,000 volunteer to the Competition Commission’s provisional remedies, business mentors from the small and medium-sized available online at: enterprise (SME) community. http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/assets/ bispartners/competitioncommission/docs/2010/localbus/ To date, over 4,000 volunteers have been recruited dft_pdr_response.pdf through this initiative, around 16% of whom are based makes clear the Government’s support for effective in the south-east. This estimate is only approximate and multi-operator ticketing schemes. The formal Government based on the location of the workshop they attended. response to the final report will be published in due We do not currently have the data to ascertain how course. many were recruited from Berkshire, Reading and Reading West constituency specifically. Bus Services: Competition Volunteer mentors recruited and trained through Get Mentoring are deployed via the mentoring organisations Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for on mentorsme.co.uk, the national mentoring portal. Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make it his People do not register to receive mentoring assistance policy to implement in full the recommendations made via the Get Mentoring scheme. in the local bus services market investigation published by the Competition Commission in January 2012; if he Departmental Pay will ensure that the Office of Fair Trading has sufficient resources to ensure that operators abide by any new rules arising from implementation of the recommendations; Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for and if he will make a statement. [96178] Business, Innovation and Skills how many officials in (a) his Department and (b) the non-departmental Norman Lamb: It is my intention to set out the public bodies for which his Department is responsible Government’s response to the final report of the “Local are paid (i) £100,000 and (ii) £142,500 or more per Bus Services Market Investigation” published by the annum. [97032] Competition Commission in due course. The Under- Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Norman Lamb: There are 24 individuals in core BIS Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), has publicly set who earn between £100,000 and £142,499. In addition out his intention to make a statement on bus policy in there are nine individuals in BIS who earn over £142,500. the near future. Similar information from BIS public bodies is not Business held centrally and to collect it would incur disproportionate costs. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government are committed to publishing senior Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer staff data as part of the transparency agenda. BIS data of 20 February 2012, Official Report, column 545W, on from these exercises is available on the website business, if he will place in the Library the information http://www.bis.gov.uk/transparency/staff 379W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 380W

Data from BIS non-departmental public bodies is available There are no stated bilateral trade targets for Bangladesh, at Indonesia or the Philippines but UKTI does provide http://www.bis.gov.uk/transparency/partners services for UK companies seeking to do business in each of these markets. Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme There is currently no programme in place to encourage bilateral trade with Iran. Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will publish the information he holds on the take-up of the enterprise finance guarantee. Public Houses [97293] Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation Innovation and Skills what recent progress he has made and Skills (BIS) publishes enterprise finance guarantee on introducing a statutory code of practice that includes lending figures on the BIS website. They are updated on (a) a free-of-tie-in option and (b) an independent a quarterly basis and available from the following link: adjudicator for the pub industry. [95600] http://www.bis.gov.uk/policies/enterprise-and-business- support/access-to-finance/enterprise-finance-guarantee/efg- Norman Lamb: The Government have no plans to statistics introduce a statutory code of practice for the pub industry. On 24 November 2011 the Government Exports announced a new tough and legally binding form of self-regulation for the pub industry, including a strengthened Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for industry framework code and the establishment of a Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) the value was Pubs Independent Conciliation and Arbitration Service of exports in 2011 and (b) objectives he has set for the (PICAS). As the code will now be legally binding, it will level of exports by 2015 to (i) Bangladesh, (ii) Egypt, ultimately be enforceable through the courts. (iii) Indonesia, (iv) Iran, (v) Mexico, (vi) Nigeria, (vii) Pakistan, (viii) the Philippines, (ix) Turkey, (x) South Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Korea and (xi) Vietnam. [95692] Innovation and Skills what recent progress he has made on the commissioning of an independent body to review Mr Prisk: The information is as follows. the self-regulation of the pub industry in the autumn of (a) 2011 data for total exports to the countries as 2012. [95601] follows are not yet available. The following table shows the latest goods (2011) and services (2010) export data. Norman Lamb: On 24 November 2011 the Government announced a new tough and legally binding form of £ million self-regulation for the pub industry, including a strengthened UK exports of goods UK exports of industry framework code and the establishment of a 2011 services 2010 Pubs Independent Conciliation and Arbitration Service Bangladesh 136 198 (PICAS). As the code will now be legally binding, it will Egypt 1,039 560 ultimately be enforceable through the courts. It would Indonesia 631 325 not be appropriate at this stage to commission a review. Iran 180 128 Mexico 952 421 Nigeria 1,543 1,280 Student Loans Company: Pay Pakistan 509 302 Philippines 285 125 Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Turkey 3,698 1,126 Business, Innovation and Skills for what reasons the South Korea 2,482 1,123 Student Loans Company has agreed to account for Vietnam 325 192 PAYE and national insurance at source for the salary Source: of its chief executive. [97114] HM Revenue and Customs (goods), Office for National Statistics (services) Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation (b) The Government aims to double bilateral trade and Skills approved the appointment and remuneration with Turkey, Mexico and Nigeria by 2015 and to increase package for the Student Loans Company (SLC) chief bilateral trade with Pakistan to £2.5 billion pounds by executive put forward by the SLC Board in December 2015. 2010. BIS and SLC followed the correct processes, Under the UK Vietnam Strategic Partnership Agreement gaining approval from across Government, and were signed in 2010, the parties committed to doubling bilateral satisfied that the package met the relevant guidelines, trade to £4billion and UK investment in Vietnam to including value for money. more than £3 billion by 2013. While personal tax arrangements are a matter for the There are no stated bilateral trade targets for Egypt individual and HMRC, the SLC recognises concerns or South Korea, but these markets are both designated about ensuring the appropriate taxes are paid and the as high growth markets in the current UK Trade and SLC has agreed to account for PAYE and national Investment (UKTI) five year strategy. Accordingly, UKTI insurance at source in respect of the salary of its chief is helping to target opportunities in these markets. executive. 381W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 382W

Students: Finance (j) heterosexual, (k) transgendered, (l) no religion, (m) Christian, including Church of England, Catholic, Kate Green: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Protestant and all other Christian denominations, (n) Innovation and Skills what plans the Student Loans Buddhist, (o) Hindu, (p) Jewish, (q) Muslim, (r) Company has to change the application process for disabled Sikh, (s) members of other religions, (t) married, (u) students’ allowances and childcare grants for students civil partners, (v) single, (w) divorced, (x) widowed, in England to enable students to apply for support (y) over 60 years old, (z) under 21 and (aa) disabled online. [96975] on the latest date for which figures are available; and if she will make a statement. [96840] Mr Willetts: There are no such plans at present. The Mrs May: Since the Equality and Human Rights Student Loan Company (SLC) is currently working at Commission is an arm’s length body; the following is full capacity delivering a programme of change that therefore based on information it has provided. The underpins the higher education reforms announced in information as follows reflects the position as at 2011. 31 March 2011. Longer term, the SLC is committed to enhancing the disabled students’ allowance and child care grant application Number Proportion processes and customer journey, including the provision of an online application, as resources become available. (a) male 146 33 (b) female 293 67 (c) white 342 78 (d) from mixed or multiple ethnic groups 11 3 LEADER OF THE HOUSE (e) Asian or British Asian 36 8 Members: Pay (f) Black African, Caribbean or Black British 34 8 (g) from another ethnic group1 —— (h) lesbian or gay 26 6 Mr Dodds: To ask the Leader of the House whether (i) bisexual 10 2 he has plans for a debate on payments to hon. Members (g) heterosexual 342 78 who have not taken their seats. [96821] (k) transgendered 0 0 (i) no religion 173 39 Sir George Young: I have no plans for such a debate (m) Christian, including Church of England, Catholic, 156 36 in the current session. Protestant and all other Christian denominations (n) Buddhist1 —— (o) Hindu1 —— 1 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES (p) Jewish —— (q) Muslim 13 3 Equality and Human Rights Commission (r) Sikh1 —— (s) members of other religions 18 4 Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for Women (t) married 178 41 and Equalities what assessment she has made of whether (u) civil partners1 —— the Equality and Human Rights Commission is fulfilling (v) single 128 29 its public sector equality duty under the Equality Act (w) divorced 22 5 2010 in respect of its duty to foster good relations (x) widowed 0 0 between people who share a characteristic and those (y) over 60 years old 25 5.70 that do not in respect of (a) homosexual people and (z) under 21 years old 0 0 Christian people and (b) homosexual people and (aa) disabled 100 23 heterosexual people; and if she will make a statement. 1 Where the number of staff with a particular protected characteristic is fewer than 10, and the information is considered sensitive personal information that [96862] might lead to individuals being identified, the figures have been replaced with an asterisk. Mrs May [holding answer 27 February 2012]: The Homophobia: Sports Equality and Human Rights Commission is responsible for complying with the public sector equality duty in Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Minister for Women and the same way as other public bodies. It is not for Equalities what discussions she has had with Ministerial Ministers to assess compliance with the public sector colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and equality duty, Sport on homophobia and transphobia in sports. Ministers and officials have regular discussions with [96810] the Equality and Human Rights Commission about its overall performance. Mrs May: I and the Minister for Equalities, the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Equality and Human Rights Commission: Manpower Featherstone), have spoken regularly with ministerial colleagues in the Department for Culture, Media and Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for Women Sport on tackling homophobia and transphobia in sport. and Equalities how many and what proportion of On 5 March 2011, the Government launched the Charter employees at the Equalities and Human Rights Commission for Action to deliver progress on this agenda. Both were (a) male, (b) female, (c) white, (d) from mixed or Departments are now working on its implementation. multiple ethnic groups, (e) Asian or British Asian, (f) Most recently, on 22 February 2012, the Minister for Black African, Caribbean or Black British, (g) from Equalities attended a No. 10 summit on tackling another ethnic group, (h) lesbian or gay, (i) bisexual, discrimination in football chaired by the Prime Minister 383W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 384W and the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and the Health Education Trust at: and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South www.healtheducationtrust.com West Surrey (Mr Hunt), attended by the Minister for Sport and the Olympics, my hon. Friend the Member Dyslexia for Faversham and Mid Kent (Hugh Robertson). The summit included discussion of plans to tackle homophobia Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Education and transphobia in the game. Both Departments continue what guidelines he issues on testing for dyslexia. [96883] to work closely together to take forward this work. Sarah Teather: The Department for Education does not issue guidelines on testing for dyslexia. It is important, however, that teachers are confident and able to identify EDUCATION reading difficulties at the earliest opportunity. 3,200 Adoption teachers have accessed specialist dyslexia training. We are developing specialist resources for initial teacher Mark Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for training and supporting teachers to obtain postgraduate Education what recent assessment he has made of the qualifications through our National Scholarship Fund rate of disruption in adoption services within the (a) for teachers. These measures will enhance teachers’ UK and (b) Milton Keynes unitary authority area. knowledge, understanding and skills and support them [96022] to identify dyslexic pupils earlier. In June this year we are also introducing a phonics Tim Loughton: Data on adoption disruption following screening check for all children in year one to support the making of an adoption order is not held centrally. I early identification of reading difficulties. have recently commissioned the university of Bristol to carry out an investigation of adoption breakdown following Education: Assessments the making of an adoption order; this will help us to understand better the reasons why adoptions do break Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for down. Education what powers he has to (a) issue guidance on Data collected by this Department (for England only) and (b) oversee the maintenance of standards for the shows that of the 2,700 children placed for adoption at marking of examinations in (i) Wales, (ii) Scotland and 31 March 2007, 4% left that placement without being (iii) Northern Ireland in respect of courses which are adopted by the original prospective adopter though followed (A) only in one of those countries and (B) in nearly 1% were subsequently adopted by other prospective more than one country in the UK. [96798] adopters. Mr Gibb: None. Qualifications policy is a devolved Data for individual local authorities cannot be provided matter. for confidentiality reasons due to the very small numbers of children leaving placements other than for adoption. Where qualifications that are used in more than one part of the UK are intended to be comparable, the When Ofsted last inspected Milton Keynes unitary qualifications regulators in each country will act to authority in 2009, they stated the adoption disruption ensure consistency of standards. rate in that authority was ″very low″. Grammar Schools: Admissions Children: Allergies

Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what measures are in place to ensure that teachers and how many pupils aged 11 to 15 years were in publicly-funded classroom assistants are aware of the risk of food secondary schools in each of the last five years; and what proportion were in fully-selective publicly-funded allergies in children. [96913] schools. [96486] Mr Gibb: It is important that schools work closely with parents to ensure that pupils learn to manage their Mr Gibb: The information requested is shown in the allergies and intolerances by making appropriate choices table. supported by school staff. Selective schools1 and state-funded secondary schools2, 3: Number (headcount) 4, 5 Local authorities, schools and all those that provide of pupils aged 11 to 15 , January each year: 2007 to 2011, England catering services for school children are well aware of 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 the importance of potentially allergenic food stuffs. The Selective 112,020 111,920 112,145 112,535 112,535 key action for schools is that the parents of any individual schools1 pupils with food allergies should discuss this with the State-funded 2,902,840 2,861,490 2,831,435 2,809,410 2,785,405 secondary school and agree how the allergy will be managed in schools2, 3 the school. DFE published guidance on this, Managing Percentage6 3.9 3.9 4.0 4.0 4.0 Medicines, in 2008, which is being revised. 1 Includes 164 selective schools. Although there are no formal arrangements in place 2 Includes middle schools as deemed. 3 Includes city technology colleges and secondary academies. to make school staff aware of the risk of food allergies, 4 Includes pupils who are sole or dual main registrations. advice is available from various organisations including 5 Age is calculated as at the previous 31 August each year. the School Food Trust at: 6 The number of pupils attending a selective school expressed as a percentage of the number pupils attending a state-funded secondary school. www.schoolfoodtrust.org.uk Note: National figures have been rounded to the nearest five. the Anaphylaxis Campaign at: Source: www.anaphylaxis.org.uk School Census 385W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 386W

Members: Correspondence DEFENCE

Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Armed Forces: Skilled Workers when he expects to answer the hon. Member for Harrow West’s letter about the answering of a parliamentary question on senior staff being paid through a private Oliver Colvile: To ask the Secretary of State for company. [97048] Defence what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for (a) Work and Pensions and (b) Business, Tim Loughton [holding answer 27 February 2012]: I Innovation and Skills on recognition of the skills wrote to the hon. Member on 24 February. acquired by service personnel while serving in the (i) Royal Navy, (ii) Royal Marines, (iii) Royal Air Force Schools: Inspections and (iv) Army by other employers. [96863]

Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Robathan [holding answer 28 February 2012]: Education whether he has made an assessment of the Wherever possible the armed forces seek to accredit cost of the proposed reinspections of schools by Ofsted their training to nationally recognised standards. The that have been graded as outstanding overall but not Department of Work and Pensions has no direct outstanding in respect of their teaching. [96792] involvement in the accreditation of training, education and work experience but the Ministry of Defence works Mr Gibb: Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector is currently closely with a range of other bodies across Government consulting on proposed changes to school inspections, including: the Department for Business Innovation and including setting higher expectations for outstanding Skills; the Department for Education (Policy); Ofqual schools. Schools judged outstanding at their last inspection, (Regulation of Standards), the National Apprenticeship including those that were not outstanding in respect of Service; Sector Skills Councils (Standards); and Awarding their teaching, may be subject to review of that status at Organisations (Qualification Development). some stage in the future. This would be determined by HM Chief Inspector following risk assessment by Ofsted. Radar: Wind Power The cost of any inspections that result from this will be considered as part of the overall changes once decisions have been taken about the package of proposed reforms. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 9 February 2012, Official Schools: Transport Report, column 336W, on radar: wind power, if he will list the location of the three new windfarm-tolerant Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Education radars referred to in that answer. [97015] what the cost per pupil was of school transport (a) in each local education authority with a wholly selective Mr Robathan: The first of the new wind farm tolerant admissions system and (b) on average in their statistical radars was installed in September 2011 at remote radar neighbours in each of the last five years. [96489] head (RRH) Trimingham, Norfolk. Two additional windfarm-tolerant radars at RRH Brizlee Wood, Tim Loughton: We do not collect data on the cost per Northumberland and RRH Staxton Wold,North Yorkshire pupil of school transport. Funding for school transport are scheduled for installation in January 2013 and September is provided through Revenue Support Grant, paid by 2013 respectively. the Department for Communities and Local Government and locally generated council tax. Teachers: Ex-servicemen CABINET OFFICE Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what progress he has made on his proposal Departmental Pay to recruit former members of the armed forces as teachers; and if he will make a statement. [96934] Fabian Hamilton: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Gibb [holding answer 27 February 2012]: We have Office how many officials in (a) his Department and worked closely with the Ministry of Defence and the (b) the non-departmental public bodies for which his Training and Development Agency for Schools on ways Department is responsible are paid (i) £100,000 and to bring more service leavers into the teaching profession. (ii) £142,500 or more per annum. [97033] 155 Service leavers have applied for initial teacher training courses this year, which is significantly higher than the Mr Maude: In 2010-11 my Department spent less on 40 to 50 we would normally expect to receive. Further wages and salaries than it did in 2009-10. to this, we have reserved 50 additional places on the Since May 2010 the number of officials in my Graduate Teacher programme, to commence from Department paid over £142,500 per annum has fallen. September 2012, which will be available exclusively to In April 2010, two officials in Cabinet Office non- service leavers. departmental public bodies were paid such salaries. We are also developing a new high quality programme There are now none. which will recruit and train the most talented service At present there are 52 officials in my Department leavers as teachers. We will announce further details of paid over £100,000 and none in a non-departmental this programme later this year. public bodies. 387W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 388W

Departmental Recruitment Mr Maude: The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Rachel Reeves: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Tatton (Mr Osborne), have the use of the official residences Office what progress he has made towards employing above No. 10 and No. 11 Downing street respectively. private sector non-executives to departmental boards; The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth and what remuneration package is provided for each Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond non-executive director drawn from the private sector (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has the use of the residence at No. serving on a departmental board. [96586] 1 Carlton gardens. The flats at Admiralty house are unoccupied. Mr Maude [holding answer 27 February 2012]: Since In addition the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of May 2010 the Cabinet Office has driven forward efficiency the Exchequer also have the use of Chequers and programmes, which has identified £5 billion of savings Dorneywood. The Deputy Prime Minister and Secretary for Departments in 2011-12. By appointing those with of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs each experience of managing complex organisations, including have the use of Chevening. many world-class business heavyweights, to serve as Non-Executives on departmental boards the Government Prostate Cancer: Death are introducing a more business-like ethos to Whitehall. The Non-Executives are challenging Departments to deliver the Government’s objectives in a timely and Mr Bone: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office cost-effective way. Our Non-Executives are offered how many men in (a) Wellingborough constituency remuneration in line with the guidance in “Corporate and (b) England died from advanced prostate cancer governance in central government departments: Code in each of the last five years. [97355] of good practice 2011”, which provides that: “Non-Executive board members will be remunerated at a rate Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the which is in line with the Bank of England’s non-executive Directors responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have of Court”. asked the authority to reply. In 2011-12 this was a rate of £15,000 per annum. An Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2012: additional £5,000 is available to Lead Non-Executives As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I and chairs of Audit and Risk Committees. have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking 59 Non-Executives have now been appointed to the how many men in a) Wellingborough constituency and b) England Enhanced Departmental Boards. Of these 17, including have died from advanced prostate cancer in each of the last five eight Lead Non-Executives, waive their fees. Further years. (97355) Non-Executives have indicated they have donated, or Table 1 as follows shows the number of deaths where prostate intend to donate, their fee to charity. cancer was the underlying cause for England and the Wellingborough parliamentary constituency for 2006 to 2010 (the latest year Government Departments: Freedom of Information available). Internationally accepted guidance from the World Health Organisation requires any conditions that contributed directly to Lisa Nandy: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet a death to be recorded on the death certificate. In cases where a Office when he intends to publish updated guidance on cancer is deemed to have contributed to a death, medical practitioners private email accounts and the Freedom of Information and coroners are not required to specify whether the cancer was Act 2000. [97219] advanced at the time of death. Figures on cancer incidence and mortality in the United Kingdom Mr Maude [holding answer 28 February 2012]: We and constituent countries are published annually and are available will issue the guidance in due course. here: www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/all- Government Departments: Offices releases.html?definition=tcm%3A77-21518 Table 1. Number of deaths where underlying cause was prostate Mr Scott: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office cancer in Wellingborough parliamentary constituency and England, what recent progress he has made with his planned 2006-101, 2, 3 disposal of surplus Government offices and other buildings. Deaths [96885] Area 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Mr Maude: From 1 June 2010 to 31 January 2011 the England 8,506 8,659 8,597 8,842 9,082 Wellingborough 19 20 25 18 26 Government have reduced the size of their civil estate constituency by 10 million square feet. More than 775 buildings have 1 Prostate cancer is defined using the International Classification of been vacated during the same period, which includes Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD 10) using code C61. exits from leasehold, freehold and PFI holdings. The 2 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year and exclude estate has shrunk by 8.75% since May 2010 and is deaths of non-residents. reducing at twice the rate when compared to the 18 months 3 Figures are based on boundaries as of November 2011. prior to the 2010 election. Public Bodies: Manpower Grace and Favour Housing Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Knight: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what estimate he has made of the number of Office which Ministers in his Department have the use people employed by departmental public bodies in each of grace and favour homes. [96872] of the last five years. [97255] 389W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 390W

Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Mr Duncan: The UK funds three programmes in responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have Bangladesh with elements of social protection that asked the authority to reply. improve nutritional outcomes. These programmes target Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2012: households including women and children, and total As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I expenditure over the last four financial years was: have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question asking what estimate has been made of the number of people £ million employed by departmental public bodies in each of the last five years. (97255) (i) 2008-09 33.5 Estimates of employment by executive Non-Departmental (ii) 2009-10 31.4 Public Bodies (NDPBs) are published on a quarterly basis by the (iii) 2010-11 44.7 Office for National Statistics as part of the Public Sector Employment (iv) 2011-12 134.5 statistical bulletin. Data are available for 2010 and 2011. 1 Estimate Estimates for 2007-2009 were published by Cabinet Office as These programmes improved the nutritional status of part of the annual Public Bodies publication. mothers and reduced acute malnutrition, stunting and Crown NDPBs have been excluded from the estimate of anaemia in under fives. A new programme will give employment by NDPBs to avoid double-counting with official direct nutrition support to over half a million extreme Civil Service estimates. This is consistent with ONS’s official poor women, children and adolescent girls. estimates of Public Sector Employment that are produced on a quarterly basis. The requested data are as follows: Employment in executive non-departmental public bodies (NDPBs)1, 2—All employees WORK AND PENSIONS Headcount 20073 20083 20093 20104 20115 Atos Healthcare: Scotland

7 7 8 5,8 5,9 Crown non- 4,570 4,400 15,070 14,230 13,480 Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for departmental public bodies6 Work and Pensions Which Atos assessment centres are Non-departmental 96,460 92,700 96,060 90,640 81,900 located in Scotland; and which such centres employ public bodies (excludes mental health champions. [97354] Crown NDPBs)10 1 Numbers are rounded to the nearest ten. Chris Grayling: Across the UK, Atos Healthcare has 2 Advisory and Tribunal NDPBs, and Independent Monitoring Boards, introduced 60 Mental Function Champions to assist rarely employ their own staff. They are usually supported by civil and advise healthcare professionals on a national basis. servants from the sponsoring Government Department. 3 Figures for NDPB’s for 2007, 2008 and 2009 are taken from their Within Scotland, the Mental Function Champions are respective annual Public Bodies Reports, which were collected and based in Glasgow and Edinburgh. published by Cabinet Office. Estimates relate to 31 March. Of the 148 Medical Assessment Centres in the UK, 4 Figures from Q2 2010 Quarterly Public Sector Employment Survey 30 are sited in Scotland, these are as follows: (Office far National Statistics). 5 Figures from Q2 2011 Quarterly Public Sector Employment Survey Aberdeen—484 Union Street, Aberdeen, AB10 1TS (Office for National Statistics). Ayr—Russell House, King Street, Ayr KA 80AB 6 Estimate taken from ONS Civil Service Statistics publication. 7 Includes Health and Safety Commission, the Health and Safety Banff—The Clinic Chalmers Hospital, Clunie Street, Banff, Executive and ACAS (the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration AB45 1HY Service). Benbecula—Benbecula Hospital, Balivanich, Benbecula, 8 Includes employees of ACAS, Health and Safety Executive, Child Benbecula, HS7 5LA Maintenance Enforcement Commission, Office for Budget Responsibility Berwick—Berwick Infirmary, Main Reception, Infirmary Square, and Civil Service Commission. TD15 1LT 9 Includes employees of ACAS, Health and Safety Executive, Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, Child Maintenance Enforcement Campbeltown—40 Hall Street, Campbeltown, PA28 6BZ Commission, Office for Budget Responsibility and Civil Service Dumfries—67-75 Irish Street, 1st Floor (Within JCP Office), Commission. Dumfries, DG1 2PQ 10 Crown NDPBs have not been Included as part of non-departmental public bodies to avoid double-counting with civil service headcount Dundee—Caledonian House, Greenmarket, Dundee DD1 4QP estimates. Edinburgh—44 York Place, Edinburgh, EH1 3HU Source: Fort William—Community Wing Health Centre, Camaghael, Office for National Statistics and Cabinet Office PH33 7AQ Glasgow—Corunna House, 29 Cadogan Street, Glasgow G2 7RD INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Golspie—Lawson Memorial Hospital, Golspie, KW10 6SS Bangladesh Greenock—1 Duff Street, Greenock, PA15 1DB Hawick—Hawick Health Centre, Teviot Road, TD9 9DT Pauline Latham: To ask the Secretary of State for Inverness—2 Baron Taylors Street, Inverness, IV1 1QL International Development how much his Department Islay—Islay Hospital, Gortonvogie Road, Isle of Islay, PA43 spent on social protection programmes intended to 7JD improve nutritional outcomes for (a) children and (b) Irkcaldy—Government Buildings, 26 Victoria Road, Kirkcaldy pregnant and breastfeeding mothers in Bangladesh in KY1 1EA (i) 2008, (ii) 2009, (iii) 2010 and (iv) 2011; and what his Kirkwall—Balfour Hospital, Kirkwall, Orkney, KW15 1GH Department’s assessment was of the effect of such Lerwick—Market House, 14 Market Street, Lerwick, ZE1 programmes. [96835] OJP 391W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 392W

Lossiemouth—The Moray Coast Med Pract, Muirton Road, Steve Webb: The weather station associated with the Lossiemouth, IV31 6TU Reading West constituency over the last three years is Montrose (Townhead)—Links Health Centre, Marine Avenue, South Farnborough. The number of benefit units we Montrose.DD10 8TR estimate to have had a payment in the area covered by Newton Stewart—Health Centre, Creebridge, Newton Stewart, the weather station is in the following table. DG8 6NP Estimated number of benefit units that received at least one cold Oban—Lorn District Hospital, Glengallan Road, Oban,PA34 weather payment for weather stations linked to postcode districts in 4HH the Reading West constituency Perth—The Medical Centre, Caledonian Road, Perth, PH2 Weather 8HH station 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 Portree—Portree Hospital, Portree, Skye, IV51 9BZ South 0 64,600 65,300 Stirling—Government Buildings, 2 St Ninians Road, Stirling, Farnborough FK8 2HF Notes: Stornoway—Health Centre, Springfield Rd, Stornoway, Isle of 1. The information provided is management information. Our preference Lewis, HS1 2PS is to answer all parliamentary questions using Official/National Statistics Stranraer—Out Pt Dept, Galloway Community Hospital, but in this case we only have management information available. It is not quality assured to the same extent as Official/National Statistics Dalrymple Street, DG9 7DQ and there are some issues with the data, for example, figures given are Thurso—Dunbar Hospital, Ormlie Road, Thurso, KW14 7XE estimates. Actuals are not available. Estimates for 2011-12 maybe Wick—Wick Medical Centre, Martha Terrace, Wick, KW1 revised after the end of the cold weather payment season, but will still 5EL be estimates not actuals. 2. A cold weather payment is made to an eligible customer when the average temperature has been recorded as, or is forecast to be, 0°C or Children: Maintenance below over seven consecutive days at the weather station linked to the customer’s postcode. (When the temperature criterion is met, the weather station is said to trigger.) Dame Anne Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for 3. South Farnborough weather stations is linked both to an area Work and Pensions what revenue his Department within the Reading West constituency and also to an area outside the expects to raise (a) in the current spending review Reading West constituency. Estimated numbers given are for the period until 2014-15 and (b) in the following spending weather station as a whole, not for the part of the Reading West constituency linked to the weather station. review period, from charging applicants to the future 4. Cold weather payments are made to benefit units. A benefit unit statutory maintenance system an application fee of can be a single person or a couple and can include children. £20. [95227] 5. Some benefit units received more than one payment in a year. 6. Estimated numbers have been rounded to the nearest 100. Maria Miller: The total revenues from charging for Sources: Postcode district to weather station links: Department for Work and applications to the future scheme are dependent upon Pensions records. the levels of applications and these are subject to a Records of triggers and estimates of potential qualifiers by weather degree of uncertainty. The following table shows the station: Department for Work and Pensions records. likely range for this spending review (SR10) and an equivalent for the following four years (SR14). Disability Living Allowance Charging fee estimate SR10 SR14 Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Application fee revenue £4 million to £6 £9 million to £13 (£ million) million million and Pensions if he will add 22q11.2 deletion syndrome to the list of medical conditions in the medical Further details will follow in the impact assessments guidance for disability living allowance and attendance which will accompany the charging regulations. allowance decision makers. [96326]

Dame Anne Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Grayling: A short description of this condition Work and Pensions what estimate his Department has will be added to the Customer Case Management glossary made of the cost of collecting a £20 application fee to of terms used by decision makers. access the future statutory maintenance system in (a) the current spending review period until 2014-15 and (b) the following spending review period. [95228] Housing Benefit

Maria Miller: The application fee is payable upfront Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for before an application proceeds and is collected as part Work and Pensions how many people in (a) Leeds of the application process. The incremental costs are North West constituency, (b) the Yorkshire region and expected to be negligible. (c) England were in receipt of housing benefit in each Further details will follow in the impact assessments year since 2009; and what he expects the equivalent which will accompany the charging regulations. figures to be in each of the next three years. [96539]

Cold Weather Payments: Reading (Berkshire) Steve Webb: Forecasts of future housing benefit stock are only available at a national (Great Britain) level. These are published in table C1 at: Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in Reading West http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd4/autumn_2011.xls constituency have received a cold weather payment in The information available on previous years is presented each of the last three years. [96960] in the following table. 393W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 394W

Housing benefit recipients in England, Yorkshire and the Humber Steve Webb: The information is as follows. region and Leeds North West parliamentary constituency, as at the dates shown (a) This information is not collated. Total (b) International Pension Centre officers in the Indian Sub Continent and Yemen perform validation checks at the claims November 2011 England 4,215,430 gateway to prevent fraud from entering the system. The number Yorkshire and the 433,420 of fraud cases identified is not collated. In Spain we have a Humber Spanish fraud hotline for ex-patriots to report suspected cases of benefit fraud. The hotline is run by the International Pension Centre officers in Spain. From 1 April 2009 to 31 January 2012 November 2010 England 4,092,150 this hotline has identified 622 fraud cases. Yorkshire and the 419,500 Humber International Pensions Centre

November 2009 England 3,897,420 Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Yorkshire and the 396,720 and Pensions whether his Department has any plans to Humber review the operation of International Pension Service officers located at UK embassies and high commissions. January 2011 Leeds North West 4,760 [95354] parliamentary constituency Steve Webb: The Department for Work and Pensions Notes: reviewed the operation of International Pensions Service 1. The data refer to benefit units, which may be a single person or a officers located overseas in late 2011. This review concluded couple. 2. The figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. that there was no unequivocal evidence that these officers 3. SHBE is a monthly electronic scan of claimant level data direct protected the Department from fraudulent benefit claims. from local authority computer systems. It replaces quarterly aggregate On that basis we decided that this service had reached a clerical returns. The data are available monthly from November 2008 natural break point. We have since been provided with and November 2011 are the most recent available. further evidence of risk in relation to the Indian 4. Recipients are as at second Thursday of the month. 5. Information is not available for housing benefit recipients at Subcontinent area, which was not made available to the parliamentary constituency level each month from November 2008. original review. We have therefore decided that we should 6. However the Department has published information on housing retain a local presence in Pakistan and Bangladesh for benefit and council tax benefit caseloads at parliamentary constituency the time being. This will allow us to gain further evidence level for January 2011 only on its website at: of their effectiveness at combating the risk of fraud. As http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/hb_ctb/hb_ctb_parlc_jan11.xls Source: part of our commitment to continuously improving the Single Housing Benefit Extract (SHBE) effectiveness and value of our services, we will reconsider this position in the future. Housing Benefit: Pension Credit Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate his Department has made and Pensions whether one or both of a couple in of savings made through early detection of fraudulent receipt of housing benefit have to have reached the or erroneous claims by International Pension Centre pension credit qualifying age in order to be exempt staff based overseas in the latest period for which from the new under-occupancy rules to be introduced figures are available. [95356] in 2013. [96841] Steve Webb: In 2009-10 the cost of having the Steve Webb: The under occupation measure in the International Pension Centre Officers in the Indian Sub social rented sector applies to those of working age. For Continent, Yemen and Spain was £664,000 and the couples currently claiming housing benefit, both the estimated benefit savings for the Indian Sub Continent claimant and their partner need to be under the, qualifying and Yemen was £2.5 million and savings of £1.2 million age for pension credit to be treated as working age. for Spain. When universal credit is introduced, if either member in New Enterprise Allowance a couple is under the qualifying age for pension credit then the couple would be treated as working age. They would then be expected to access universal credit rather Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work than pension credit. and Pensions what the level of take-up has been of the (a) new enterprise allowance and (b) New Enterprise It is intended that those already in receipt of pension Allowance Loan in (i) Skipton and Ripon constituency, credit at April 2013 will be protected, and continue to (ii) North Yorkshire, (iii) Yorkshire and the Humber receive pension credit as long as they continue to meet region and (c) the UK since its introduction. [97312] the other qualifying conditions. Chris Grayling: The Department does not publish International Pension Centre new enterprise allowance statistics at the levels requested. Information for Great Britain is published which shows Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work that, for the period January to November 2011, the and Pensions how many cases of fraud have been number of mentor starts was 6,880, of which 1,310 were identified by (a) the International Pension Centre and in the north east. In the same period in Great Britain, (b) International Pension Service officers based in UK the number of weekly allowance starts was 1,960, of embassies and high commissions in each of the last five which 300 were in the north east official statistics are years. [95351] available and can be viewed at: 395W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 396W

http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/pwp/pwp_gbw_feb12.pdf Notes: The Department does not publish statistics for new 1. Part (a) is based on the tax/benefit system in 2011-12 enterprise allowance loans. 2. Parts (b) and (c) are based on the tax/benefit system in Pensions: Fraud 2012-13 3. Universal credit is based on the tax/benefit system in 2014-15 Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 4. Income is defined as net earnings in addition to any benefits or and Pensions what estimate he has made of the cost of tax credits. fraudulent overseas pensions claims in the latest period 5. Council tax of £1,000 a year has been equated to approximately for which figures are available. [95352] £19 a week. 6. All numbers have been provided in 2011-12 prices and where Steve Webb: This information is not available. necessary deflated by the GDP Deflator. All numbers have been rounded to the nearest £1. Public Sector: Redundancy

Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Widowed Parents Allowance Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the number of people made redundant from a job in the Mr Brady: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and public sector since January 2010 who have subsequently Pensions if he will take steps to ensure that entitlement been re-employed. [97243] to widowed parents allowance is not affected by the introduction of income-related criteria for eligibility for Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply on behalf of the child benefit. [96625] Cabinet Office. The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority Steve Webb: When child benefit will cease for people to reply. who are higher rate taxpayers, we will ensure that, when the change is introduced, entitlement to widowed parent’s Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated February 2012: allowance is not affected as a result. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking for the number of people made redundant from a job in the Winter Fuel Payments public sector since January 2010 who have subsequently been re-employed. [97243] The requested information is not available. Official estimates Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work of redundancies are derived from the Labour Force Survey (LFS). and Pensions if he will estimate the number of higher However, the details required to identify redundancies in the rate taxpayers who were in receipt of (a) a free television public sector are not collected. Also, the LFS only identifies people who have become re-employed within three months of the licence and (b) winter fuel allowance in the latest date of redundancy. period for which figures are available. [95801] Social Security Benefits Steve Webb: The following table provides estimates on the number of TV Licence (aged 75 or over) and Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for Work winter fuel payment recipients that are higher or additional and Pensions if he will estimate the total household rate taxpayers. income including working tax credit, child tax credit, child benefit and council tax benefit of a couple The estimates are based on Department for Work working 16 hours a week on the minimum wage living and Pensions forecasting data combined with information in their own home and paying £1,000 in council tax (a) on the tax paid by older people from Her Majesty’s currently, (b) after changes to qualifying requirements Revenue and Customs Survey of Personal Incomes, and for working tax credit on 1 April 2012 and (c) information on the overall numbers of pensioners from including out-of-work benefits. [95428] the Office for National Statistics population projections. 2011-12 Chris Grayling: On the assumption that this couple Number of recipients that are has two children: higher or additional rate taxpayers (thousand) (a) Prior to April 2012, this household would be entitled to working tax credit and they would have income of around £330 (a) TV licence (aged 75 or over) 100 per week. This includes around £19 a week in council tax benefit. (b) Winter fuel payment 600 (b) In 2012-13, this household would not be entitled to receive Notes: working tax credit and would have income of around £257 per 1. The figures assume that all taxpayers aged 75 or over benefit from a week. This includes around £19 a week in council tax benefit. free TV Licence, and all taxpayers aged over women’s state pension (c) If this household was out of work their income would be age benefit from a winter fuel payment. around £271 per week. This includes around £19 a week in 2. Figures are rounded to the nearest 100,000 individuals. council tax benefit. 3. The figures present higher and additional rate taxpayers together due to rounding conventions. The Government are reforming the welfare system through the introduction of universal credit in October In 2011-12 around 2% of all TV Licence recipients 2013. Universal credit is designed to improve financial (aged 75 or over) were higher or additional rate taxpayers. work incentives. And in this example the couple will be In the same year around 5% of winter fuel payment around £95 per week better off working 16 hours a recipients aged under 80, and 2% of those aged 80 and week compared to being out of work. over, were higher or additional rate taxpayers. 397W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 398W

Work Capability Assessment Search for UK Treaties http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/treaties/search Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for (treaties can also be found in public legal libraries). Work and Pensions how many of those awarded points Other services such as passport renewal and replacement, under Activity 7, Understanding Communication, in legalisation (e.g. certificates, apostilles etc.), and scholarships work capability assessments undertaken between April are primarily dealt with online but offline options also and November 2011 did not have hearing loss. [95654] exist. Chris Grayling: It is not possible to provide a breakdown Departmental Responsibilities of individuals who do not have hearing loss but scored against activity 7 as the data cannot be reliably split to that level of detail. However we do publish quarterly Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign stats which provide details of primary condition and and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of details of the percentage of people assigned to the 10 January 2012, Official Report, column 73W,on Adam Work Related Activity Group because of scoring 15 points Werritty, what the (a) subject and (b) purpose was of or more at assessment split by type of functional the meeting on (i) 8 September 2009 and (ii) 16 June impairment. 2010; who else was present at each meeting; whether These statistics are available at: any minute or other record was made of each meeting; and whether there was advance knowledge of each http://statistics.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/ meeting by (A) Ministers, (B) the relevant county desk esa_wca_20120124_tables.xls of his Department and (C) the security services; and if Work Capability Assessment: Northern Ireland he will make a statement. [96598]

Pamela Nash: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Mr Lidington: It is not normal Government practice and Pensions which providers are performing work to comment on the participation at meetings held by capability assessments in Northern Ireland. [96540] officials or subjects discussed. Information regarding the participants at the meetings on 8 September 2009 Chris Grayling: Matters of social security in Northern and 16 June 2010 is already in the public domain. Ireland are the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Relevant Ministers and senior officials were aware of Assembly. the meetings mentioned. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE answer of 10 January 2012, Official Report, column 73W, A4e on Adam Werritty, who else attended the dinner on 6 February 2011; whether any officials from (a) his Department and (b) the Ministry of Defence were Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Secretary of State for present; what was discussed; whether any minute or Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what contracts his other record was made of the discussion; who hosted Department has with A4e; and what the (a) purpose and paid for the event; and whether official guidance on and (b) monetary value is of each such contract. receipt of hospitality by Ministers and officials was [97021] followed. [96599]

Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Mr Lidington: It is not normal Government practice has no contracts with A4e. to comment on the participation at meetings held by Departmental Internet officials or subjects discussed. Relevant Ministers and senior officials were aware of the meetings mentioned. Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what public Kosovo: Serbia services his Department delivers online only. [96895] Karen Lumley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Lidington: The following Foreign and Commonwealth Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment Office public services are available online only: he has made of the progress of talks between Kosovo Search of sanctions and export controls: and Serbia on normalising relations between those countries. http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what-we-do/services-we- [97204] deliver/export-controls-sanctions/country-listing/ Searchable travel advice and contact details of UK embassies Mr Lidington: The EU-facilitated dialogue between overseas by country: Serbia and Kosovo is continuing. A meeting took place http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel- from 22-24 February 2012 where agreement was reached advice-by-country/ on Kosovo’s participation in regional fora and a technical The Academic Technology Approval Scheme: protocol concluded on implementation of an agreement http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/what-we-do/services-we- on management of the border between Kosovo and deliver/atas/ Serbia. Search of documents on British policy overseas: Previous meetings under the dialogue have led to a http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-us/our-history/historical- number of agreements between the two parties, including publications/documents-british-policy/ on civil records, cadastral records, freedom of movement, 399W Written Answers29 FEBRUARY 2012 Written Answers 400W customs stamps, university diplomas and integrated Farida Shaheed was appointed as UN expert in the border management. Implementation of these agreements field of cultural rights on 1 November 2009. During her is underway. mission she met Government officials and civil society Energy and telecommunications are two headings representatives, in addition to academics, grass roots under the dialogue on which agreements have yet to be leaders, and representatives from different cultural concluded. There are likely to be further areas, yet to be communities and minority groups formally added by the parties to the dialogue agenda, where agreement between Serbia and Kosovo will be Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign needed in order to fulfil the objectives of the dialogue. and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to to The dialogue aims to improve the lives of citizens in ask the UN Special Rapporteur for Freedom of both countries and to move both Serbia and Kosovo Expression to visit occupied Western Sahara. [97186] further down the path to EU accession. Western Sahara Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has no plans to ask and Commonwealth Affairs which UN special rapporteurs the UN Special Rapporteur for Freedom of Expression have visited Western Sahara since the renewal of the to visit Western Sahara. The British Government are committed to the independence of UN Special Rapporteurs MINURSO mandate. [97183] and their right to fulfil their mandates as they choose. Alistair Burt: UNSCR 1979 on the situation concerning For this reason, we are not involved in decisions concerning Western Sahara, adopted on 27 April 2011, welcomed the remit of their work. the commitment of Morocco to ensure unqualified and Officials from the British embassy visit the territory unimpeded access to all Special Procedures of the UN regularly and speak to a range of interlocutors including Human Rights Council. officials and human rights organisations. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 29 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 280 WALES—continued Engagements...... 280 High Speed 2...... 279 Inward Investment...... 271 WALES...... 271 Public Service Delivery...... 277 Burdens on Business ...... 275 St David’s Day ...... 278 Crime...... 279 The People’s Rail...... 274 Feed-in Tariffs...... 273 Tourism...... 280 Funding Reductions (Women) ...... 276 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 29 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 31WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 32WS English for Speakers of Other Languages ...... 31WS Hong Kong (Sino-British Declaration) ...... 32WS

DEFENCE...... 31WS HEALTH...... 33WS Police and Guarding Agency...... 31WS Winterbourne View...... 33WS

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 32WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 33WS Electoral Registration (Annual Canvass 2012) ...... 32WS Immigration...... 33WS PETITION

Wednesday 29 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 3P Definition of Gypsy Status ...... 3P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 29 February 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 376W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT— Apprentices...... 376W continued Bus Services: Brighton ...... 377W Departmental Food...... 340W Bus Services: Competition ...... 377W Departmental Internet ...... 341W Business ...... 377W Departmental Procurement...... 341W Business: Government Assistance ...... 378W Departmental Regulation...... 341W Departmental Pay ...... 378W Departmental Travel ...... 342W Enterprise Finance Guarantee Scheme ...... 379W Electoral Register...... 342W Exports ...... 379W Email ...... 343W Public Houses ...... 380W Environment Protection: Planning Permission...... 343W Student Loans Company: Pay...... 380W Fire Services...... 343W Students: Finance ...... 381W Fire Services: Pensions ...... 344W Fire Services: Standards...... 344W CABINET OFFICE...... 386W Homelessness: Greater London ...... 345W Departmental Pay ...... 386W Housing: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 346W Departmental Recruitment ...... 387W Local Authorities ...... 346W Government Departments: Freedom of Local Authorities: Airports...... 346W Information ...... 387W Planning Permission: Travellers...... 347W Government Departments: Offices...... 387W Planning Permission: Wind Power ...... 347W Grace and Favour Housing ...... 387W Private Rented Housing ...... 348W Prostate Cancer: Death ...... 388W Recycling: Shropshire...... 348W Public Bodies: Manpower ...... 388W Social Rented Housing: Finance ...... 348W Wind Power: Planning Permission ...... 349W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 339W Coastal Communities Fund...... 339W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 314W Departmental Billing ...... 349W Telecommunications: Competition...... 314W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Television: Licensing ...... 316W continued Departmental Internet ...... 397W DEFENCE...... 386W Departmental Responsibilities ...... 398W Armed Forces: Skilled Workers...... 386W Kosovo: Serbia...... 398W Radar: Wind Power...... 386W Western Sahara ...... 399W

EDUCATION...... 383W HEALTH...... 325W Adoption ...... 383W Allergies: Children ...... 325W Children: Allergies ...... 383W Antenatal Care...... 326W Dyslexia ...... 384W Cardiovascular System: Health Services...... 326W Education: Assessments ...... 384W Departmental Internet ...... 326W Grammar Schools: Admissions...... 384W Departmental Pay ...... 327W Members: Correspondence ...... 385W Diabetes: Chiropody ...... 327W Schools: Inspections...... 385W Diabetes: Orthopaedics...... 328W Schools: Transport ...... 385W Health Services: Ex-servicemen...... 329W Teachers: Ex-servicemen ...... 385W Hospices ...... 329W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 330W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 305W IVF: Leeds ...... 330W Departmental Regulation ...... 305W McKinsey and Company ...... 330W Electricity: Prices ...... 305W Medical Treatments...... 330W Energy: Meters...... 306W Mental Health Services: Per Capita Costs...... 331W Exhaust Emissions: Shipping ...... 307W Neurology ...... 331W Fuel Poverty...... 307W NHS: Reorganisation...... 331W Gas: Prices ...... 307W Obesity: Bexleyheath...... 332W Green Deal Scheme...... 308W Organs: Donors ...... 332W Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Economic Situation... 308W Physiotherapy: Greater London...... 333W Housing: Insulation ...... 309W Primary Health Care...... 334W Renewable Energy: Feed-in Tariffs...... 309W Prostate Cancer...... 334W Sellafield ...... 310W Prostate Cancer: Drugs ...... 335W Wind Power: Yorkshire East ...... 310W Transplant Surgery...... 335W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL HOME DEPARTMENT...... 316W AFFAIRS...... 350W Action for Employment ...... 316W Action for Employment ...... 350W Arrest Warrants ...... 317W Birds of Prey...... 350W British Nationality: Assessments...... 318W Common Fisheries Policy ...... 351W Civil Disorder ...... 318W Departmental Data Protection...... 351W Databases: Telecommunications ...... 319W Droughts: Lincolnshire ...... 352W Departmental Research...... 319W Droughts: London Olympics 2012 ...... 352W Departmental Senior Civil Servants...... 320W Environment Agency: Manpower ...... 353W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 321W Fisheries...... 353W Foreign Nationals: Offenders ...... 322W Floods: Pendle ...... 354W Forensic Science Regulator: Finance...... 323W Fly-tipping: Cycling ...... 354W Knives: Crime ...... 324W Food: Packaging ...... 355W Proceeds of Crime...... 324W Food: Waste...... 355W Terrorism: International Cooperation...... 325W Genetically Modified Organisms: Crops ...... 355W Landfill ...... 356W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 313W Landfill: Arpley ...... 357W Drinking Water: Costs ...... 313W Landfill: Lancashire...... 357W Landfill: North West...... 358W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 389W Marine Stewardship Council: Consumers ...... 358W Bangladesh...... 389W Members: Correspondence ...... 358W Morocco: Fishery Agreements ...... 358W JUSTICE...... 365W Pesticides...... 359W Appeals: Employment and Support Allowance...... 365W Pollution: Incinerators ...... 359W Barristers: Pay...... 366W Rhydymwyn Valley ...... 360W Children: Custody...... 366W River Rom: Conservation...... 361W Courts: Crimes of Violence...... 367W Rural Areas: Broadband ...... 361W Courts: Security ...... 367W Rural Areas: Private Finance Initiative ...... 362W Criminal Proceedings: Translation Services...... 368W Scallops...... 362W Death Certificates ...... 368W Seas and Oceans: Technology ...... 362W Departmental Internet ...... 368W Third Sector...... 362W Employment Tribunals Service...... 368W Water Companies...... 363W EU Staff: Corruption...... 370W Water: Pollution...... 364W Judicial Conduct ...... 370W Water Supply: Finance...... 363W Legal Aid Scheme ...... 371W West Africa: Fisheries ...... 364W Legal Profession: Pay ...... 371W Western Sahara: Fisheries ...... 365W Prison Sentences ...... 371W Prisoners ...... 372W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 397W Reoffenders...... 374W A4e ...... 397W Sentencing...... 375W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued TREASURY—continued Young Offenders: Restraint Techniques ...... 375W Taxation: Aviation ...... 338W Taxation: Self-assessment...... 339W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 381W Members: Pay ...... 381W WALES...... 314W Broadband ...... 314W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 313W Inward Investment ...... 314W Action for Employment ...... 313W Departmental Pay ...... 313W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 381W Members...... 314W Equality and Human Rights Commission...... 381W Political Parties ...... 314W Equality and Human Rights Commission: Manpower ...... 381W SCOTLAND...... 312W Homophobia: Sports ...... 382W Action for Employment ...... 312W Departmental Pay ...... 313W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 390W Atos Healthcare: Scotland ...... 390W TRANSPORT ...... 311W Children: Maintenance ...... 391W Departmental Recruitment ...... 311W Cold Weather Payments: Reading (Berkshire)...... 391W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 311W Disability Living Allowance...... 392W High Speed 2 Railway Line: Nature Reserves...... 312W Housing Benefit ...... 392W M25: Hertfordshire ...... 312W Housing Benefit: Pension Credit ...... 393W Motor Vehicles: Safety...... 312W International Pension Centre ...... 393W International Pensions Centre...... 394W TREASURY ...... 336W New Enterprise Allowance...... 394W Banks: Loans ...... 336W Pensions: Fraud ...... 395W Child Tax Credit ...... 336W Public Sector: Redundancy ...... 395W Departmental Internet ...... 337W Social Security Benefits...... 395W Income Tax: Gillingham ...... 337W Widowed Parents Allowance...... 396W Income Tax: National Insurance...... 337W Winter Fuel Payments...... 396W Revenue and Customs: Closures ...... 338W Work Capability Assessment...... 397W Tax Avoidance: Ghana...... 338W Work Capability Assessment: Northern Ireland..... 397W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 29 February 2012

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 271] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Financial Institutions (Reform) [Col. 295] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Steve Baker)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Treaty on Stability, Co-ordination and Governance [Col. 298] Emergency debate under Standing Order No. 24

Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill [Col. 348] Motion for Second Reading—(Mrs Spelman)

Safety of Offshore Oil and Gas Activities [Col. 398] Motion—(Mr Dunne); Division deferred till Wednesday 7 March

Private Hire and Hackney Carriage Vehicles [Col. 399] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Trade Union Funding [Col. 73WH] Renewable Energy [Col. 100WH] Scottish Football (Tax Liabilities) [Col. 109WH] Daniel Morgan [Col. 133WH] South West Marine Energy Park [Col. 142WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 31WS]

Petition [Col. 3P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 305W] [see index inside back page]