COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard

WEDNESDAY, 25 NOVEMBER 1998

THIRTY-NINTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIRST PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 25 NOVEMBER

National Transmission Network Sale Bill 1998, and National Transmission Network Sale (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1998— First Reading ...... 565 Second Reading ...... 565 Customs Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) 1998 (No. 2), and National Environment Protection Measures (Implementation) Bill 1998— First Reading ...... 567 Second Reading ...... 567 Business— Consideration of Legislation ...... 572 Higher Education Funding Amendment Bill 1998— In Committee ...... 572 Third Reading ...... 580 States Grants (Primary and Secondary Education Assistance) Amendment Bill 1998— Second Reading ...... 580 In Committee ...... 593 Third Reading ...... 599 Space Activities Bill 1998— Second Reading ...... 599 Matters of Public Interest— Community Sport and Recreation ...... 607 Aboriginal Communities ...... 609 Yunkaporta, Mr Francis ...... 609 One Nation: Queensland State Election ...... 611 Private Health Insurance: Rebate ...... 613 Public Office Holders: Dual Citizenship ...... 616 Drug Abuse and Drug Related Crime ...... 618 Questions Without Notice— Goods and Services Tax: Banking Services ...... 620 Distinguished Visitors ...... 620 Questions Without Notice— Economy: Government Policy ...... 620 Taxation Reform: Industry ...... 621 Youth Training ...... 622 Goods and Services Tax: Fringe Benefits ...... 623 Global Warming: Great Barrier Reef ...... 625 Goods and Services Tax: Input Credits ...... 625 Regional Forest Agreements ...... 626 Goods and Services Tax: Voluntary School Fees ...... 626 Online Australia Day ...... 627 Goods and Services Tax: Impact on Consumer Price Index ...... 628 Banking: Fees and Charges ...... 629 Fringe Benefits Tax: Proposed Changes ...... 630 Taxation Reform: Regional Australia ...... 631 Answers to Questions Without Notice— Millennium Bug: Government Documents ...... 633 Knowles, Senator Sue: Alleged Death Threats ...... 633 Goods and Services Tax: Banking Services ...... 633 Notices— Presentation ...... 639 Business— Finance and Public Administration References Committee ...... 641 Taxation Package: Reference to Commitees ...... 641 Community Affairs Legislation Committee ...... 641 National Competition Policy ...... 641 Government Documents: Public Interest Immunity ...... 642 CONTENTS—continued

Superannuation: Building Awards ...... 642 Employment, Workplace Relations, Small Business and Education References Committee ...... 642 Online Australia Day ...... 642 Telstra: Bendigo Fault Centre ...... 642 Millennium Bug: Compliance Progress Reports ...... 643 Committees— Scrutiny of Bills Committee—Report ...... 644 Documents— Auditor-General’s Reports—Report No. 17 of 1998-99 ...... 644 Committees— Regulations and Ordinances Committee—Membership ...... 644 Reference: Taxation Package ...... 644 Notices— Withdrawal ...... 653 Space Activities Bill 1998— Second Reading ...... 653 Migration Legislation Amendment (Strengthening of Provisions relating to Character and Conduct) Bill 1998— Second Reading ...... 656 In Committee ...... 669 Third Reading ...... 669 Governor-general’s Speech— Address-in-Reply ...... 669 Documents— Private Health Insurance Administration Council ...... 678 Genetic Manipulation Advisory Committee ...... 679 Productivity Commission ...... 680 Aboriginal Land Commissioner ...... 681 Consideration ...... 682 Adjournment— Indonesia ...... 683 Banking: Local Government and Regional Australia ...... 684 Government Documents: Executive Power ...... 686 Buchan, Sir John ...... 688 Documents— Tabling ...... 690 Indexed Lists of Files ...... 690 Tabling ...... 690 SENATE 565

Wednesday, 25 November 1998 complete its consideration of the bills. These current bills incorporate minor amendments, including those recommended by the Senate Committee which examined the previous bills. The The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. amendments extend the access regime in the bills Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., to include ancillary services provided by the ABC and read prayers. and SBS and to cover community television providers. A further amendment confirms the NATIONAL TRANSMISSION original policy intention of the Sale bill that the NETWORK SALE BILL 1998 access regime applied by the bill is restricted to carriage services for the transmission of existing NATIONAL TRANSMISSION analog broadcasting services. NETWORK SALE (CONSEQUENTIAL These bills will give the ABC and SBS a direct AMENDMENTS) BILL 1998 commercial relationship with transmission service providers, thereby increasing the national First Reading broadcasters’ responsibility for transmission of their programs. The ABC and SBS have been seeking Motion (by Senator Ian Campbell) agreed such a commercial relationship for many years. to: The sale of the transmission network will provide That the following bills be introduced: a bill for a range of benefits. The ABC and SBS, and other an act relating to the sale of the National Transmis- network users, will finally operate in a purchas- sion Network and a bill for an act to make conse- er/provider relationship with service suppliers. quential amendments relating to the sale of the Transferring this operational activity to the private National Transmission Network, and for related sector will produce the scope for greater client purposes. focus and responsiveness that flows from normal Motion (by Senator Ian Campbell) agreed commercial practice. In addition, it sets the scene to: for a greater degree of competition in the transmis- sion services market, particularly with the introduc- That these bills may proceed without formalities tion of digital terrestrial broadcasting. Sale proceeds and be now read a first time. will be used to further reduce the public debt. Bills read a first time. In agreeing to sell the network, the Government has recognised the importance of safeguarding import- Second Reading ant broadcasting policy objectives. We have made Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western it clear that the maintenance of existing ABC and Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the SBS coverage and service quality, particularly for Minister for Communications, Information regional and remote communities, is a prerequisite. Technology and the Arts) (9.32 a.m.)—I table In addition, we will ensure that existing Communi- the explanatory memorandum relating to the ty Service Obligations will be preserved, including those for network users such as Radio for the Print bills and move: Handicapped, remote commercial satellite broad- That these bills be now read a second time. casting services, self-help retransmission groups I seek leave to have the second reading and emergency service operators. speeches incorporated in Hansard. In the medium term, we recognise that there is likely to remain limited competition in the trans- Leave granted. mission services market, especially outside major The speeches read as follows— metropolitan centres. NATIONAL TRANSMISSION NETWORK Against this background, these bills balance the SALE BILL 1998 desire to maximise the benefits of establishing commercial synergies, with the need for competi- The National Transmission Network Sale Bill 1998, tive safeguards to protect the Government’s broad- together with the National Transmission Network casting and social policy objectives. Sale (Consequential Amendments) Bill 1998, The Network will be transferred to one or more implements the Government’s decision to sell the national transmission companies which will have National Transmission Network. agreed contracts with the ABC and SBS spelling Bills to enable the sale of the network were passed out transmission requirements for existing analog by the House of Representatives in the previous broadcasting services. These companies will be sold term of this Government. However, the recent to the network purchaser, or purchasers, with the federal election was called before the Senate could contracts in place. 566 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

A compact with the ABC and SBS will spell out including those under Part 3A of the Trade Prac- the Government’s transmission coverage and tices Act 1974. quality expectations—in return for full funding of the costs of the broadcasters’ initial five year The ABC and SBS will also be able to establish transmission contracts. their own transmission services. This power, together with the ability of the broadcasters to The bills provide a regulatory framework to purchase future requirements from other providers, underpin these contractual arrangements. will provide commercial leverage and introduce contestability into the market, particularly in It is necessary to ensure the continuity of contrac- relation to digital broadcasting services. tual arrangements in the event of on-sale of the network, and to safeguard against the transfer of The access provisions in the Sale bill are subject to assets necessary for the continuation of ABC, SBS, the operation of the provisions in Part 5 of Sched- Radio for the Print Handicapped and emergency ule 4 to the Broadcasting Services Act 1992 which services. gives the national (ABC and SBS) and commercial television broadcasters a right of access to broad- Accordingly, this bill contains provisions requiring casting transmission sites (including NTN sites) for Ministerial approval before transfer of any assets the purpose of installing digital television transmit- associated with these "nominated services". This ters and associated facilities. requirement will enable the Minister to ensure that the proposed transferee adopts the conditions of the The new arrangements also require a number of previous contracts with the ABC, SBS and Radio technical changes to other portfolio legislation. The for the Print Handicapped operators in relation to National Transmission Network Sale (Consequential their core performance obligations. The provision Amendments) Bill 1998 amends the Australian will also allow an assessment of the likely commer- Broadcasting Corporation Act 1983, the Special cial or financial viability of the proposed transferee Broadcasting Service Act 1991 and the to further safeguard the continued provision of Radiocommunications Act 1992 to allow the existing national broadcasting services.The legisla- broadcasters to deal directly with transmission tion also provides for an access regime similar to service providers, and to enable the ABC and SBS that put in place for the telecommunications to maintain control over the radiocommunications industry for the benefit of certain nominated spectrum used to broadcast their services. customers. The access regime will guard against any imbalance in negotiating power, which could The ABC and SBS will report to the Parliament, have led to essential transmission services and through their annual reports, on any significant facilities not being available, or only being avail- changes in transmission coverage or quality of able at monopoly prices. national broadcasting services. The access regime will: The ABC and SBS will be responsible for dealing with any complaints from the public about recep- . guarantee access to existing analog transmission tion quality. In the unlikely event that a suitable services for the ABC, SBS, government and non- and timely response is not provided by the broad- profit self-help retransmission groups and the casters, and a substantial problem appears to exist Radio for the Print Handicapped operators, and in relation to changed transmission coverage of a will community, the Minister will have the option of . guarantee access to existing Network sites and directing the Australian Broadcasting Authority towers for groups such as community broadcast- (ABA) to investigate the matter. ers (including community TV), remote commer- With this contractual and legislative package, the cial satellite broadcasters and emergency ser- ABC and SBS will at last have a direct commercial vices, as well as the ABC, SBS, self-help relationship with the provider of their transmission retransmission groups and Radio for the Print services, and a degree of flexibility in determining Handicapped. how best to meet their future transmission needs. If the parties are unable to reach agreement on the At the same time, the Australian public can be terms and conditions to apply, they will have confident that coverage and signal quality for recourse to the ACCC to arbitrate the matter. existing national broadcasting services will be protected. This combination of contractual and legislative provisions will balance the likely market power of In addition, self-help retransmission groups, emer- new network owners to ensure continued access by gency service operators, remote commercial national broadcasters and other nominated users on satellite service providers and providers of Radio reasonable terms and conditions. for the Print Handicapped services will be protected by the access regime. Capped charges in contracts Commercial users of the network will have re- or supplementary funding will ensure that they are course to standard fair trading legal safeguards, not financially disadvantaged. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 567

The National Transmission Network Sale Bill 1998 direct the Australian Broadcasting Authority (ABA) also contains some technical requirements to to conduct an investigation into the matter. facilitate the sale. Minor amendments to the Radiocommunications These include provisions to ensure, if necessary, Act 1992 will facilitate ABC and SBS control of that ownership of fixtures can be separated from the Radiocommunications spectrum used to broad- ownership of the land on which they are located. cast their services. Some transmission facilities have been built on non-Commonwealth land and the power to "sever" This bill will have no financial impact. the fixtures from the land is needed to make it clear Ordered that further consideration of the that the Commonwealth is the owner of Network assets. second reading of these bills be adjourned until 14 days after today, in accordance with This bill also ensures that the new Network owner will not be subject to State and Territory planning standing order 111. and environmental laws for facilities existing or under development at the time of the sale. Of CUSTOMS LEGISLATION course, a new owner will be subject to all planning AMENDMENT BILL (No. 1) 1998 (No. and environmental requirements for new facilities 2) or substantial changes to existing ones. Sale proceeds are expected to return to the Budget NATIONAL ENVIRONMENT in 1998-99 as an offset to outlays. The Government PROTECTION MEASURES has agreed that total outlays for transmission services after the sale will be contained within (IMPLEMENTATION) BILL 1998 current forward estimates. No additional resources are required for the negligible financial impact of First Reading administering the regulatory arrangements contained Motion (by Senator Ian Campbell) agreed in these bills. to: These bills will allow the completion of the sale of That the following bills be introduced: a bill for the transmission network. As promised, the Govern- ment will deliver the benefits of a more commer- an act to amend legislation relating to Customs, and cial transmission environment, and give the national for related purposes and a bill for an act to provide broadcasters the direct responsibility for transmis- for the implementation of national environment sion of their programs which they have sought for protection measures in respect of certain activities so long. At the same time, the bills provide the carried on by or on behalf of the Commonwealth safeguards necessary to preserve the Government’s and Commonwealth authorities, and for related national broadcasting and other social policy purposes. objectives. Motion (by Senator Ian Campbell) agreed NATIONAL TRANSMISSION NETWORK to: SALE (CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS) That these bills may proceed without formalities BILL 1998 and be now read a first time. The National Transmission Network Sale (Conse- Bills read a first time. quential Amendments) Bill 1998 supplements the National Transmission Network Sale Bill 1998, in Second Reading putting in place arrangements to effect the Government’s decision to sell the National Trans- Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western mission Network. Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the This bill amends the Australian Broadcasting Minister for Communications, Information Corporation Act 1983 and Special Broadcasting Technology and the Arts) (9.33 a.m.)—I table Service Act 1991 to make it clear that both the ABC and SBS have the power to produce, transmit the explanatory memoranda relating to the and arrange for the transmission of programs. Both bills and move: organisations will be required to provide details in That these bills be now read a second time. their annual reports of significant changes in transmission coverage of national broadcasting I seek leave to have the second reading services. speeches incorporated in Hansard. Where a substantial problem appears to exist in Leave granted. relation to changed transmission coverage of a community, the Minister will have the power to The speeches read as follows— 568 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

CUSTOMS LEGISLATION AMENDMENT in Australia and which may have illicit drugs BILL (No.1) 1998 (No. 2) aboard. This group of people includes people such as maintenance crews, caterers and cleaners and, in This bill is identical to the Customs Legislation relation to ships, visitors. This gap is a weakness Amendment Bill (No.1) 1998, introduced into the which has been exploited as a means of importing House of Representatives on 2 July 1998 before the illicit drugs. The proposed amendments seek to last Parliament was dissolved on 31 August 1998. provide Customs officers with a power to examine It represents the first instalment of legislative the bags or other containers in the possession of amendments proposed by the Government imple- such persons to ensure illicit drugs are not being menting the "Tough on Drugs" strategy, an initia- landed by them. tive announced by the Prime Minister on 2 Novem- ber 1997. Similarly, Customs officers do not currently have any power to frisk search such persons. This Illicit drugs damage our society, especially our inability, where the Customs officer has reasonable young people. The Government is determined to do grounds to suspect that the person is carrying everything it can to reduce the menace of illicit prohibited goods on his or her body, provides a drugs. The Prime Minister’s personal leadership in significant opportunity for such persons to walk announcing the ‘Tough on Drugs’ strategy is a very illicit drugs off a ship or aircraft. The amendments clear demonstration of that commitment. propose to provide Customs officers with the power Recent significant seizures of illicit drugs underline to undertake a frisk search of a person in such the Government’s commitment. circumstances. The Government’s strategy is three-fold. First, it It is proposed that these powers will also apply in aims to reduce demand for illicit drugs by educat- circumstances where Customs officers are involved ing people, particularly our young people, about the in the boarding and searching of a ship or aircraft dangers of drug use. Second, it aims to reduce the whether it is berthed or parked at a wharf or airport harm being done to drug users, for example through respectively or whether a vessel is boarded at sea education about the risks of HIV/AIDS among by Customs officers on an Australian Customs injecting users. Thirdly, it aims to reduce the Vessel. supply of illicit drugs by stopping them from coming into the country in the first place. Each of In summary, the powers proposed are not new these parts of the strategy received a significant ones: as I have explained, Customs already has boost in funding in the Prime Minister’s initial these powers in respect of arriving passengers. The announcement of 2 November 1997 and were proposal is simply to extend the powers to other emphasised in his second announcement on 16 people in a ‘Customs place’ who have unrestricted March this year. access to planes and ships for quite legitimate purposes. The proposed frisk search powers will As well as making sure that our law enforcement provide the same safeguards and rights to individu- agencies have the people and the tools that they als as currently apply to passengers, thereby need to combat this menace, we also need to make ensuring that the dignity of a person being frisk sure that they are equipped with adequate and searched is maintained. appropriate legal powers. That is what this bill is about. In relation to Customs officers on board Australian Customs Vessels, there has, for some time, been a The bill amends the Customs Act 1901 (the Act) concern within the Australian Customs Service with the objective of providing Customs officers about the safety and welfare of Customs officers with more effective powers in relation to the operating at sea in an isolated environment. Cus- detection of illicit drugs at the border. The bill also toms officers are not armed. They should be able amends the Customs Administration Act 1985 in to feel safe and without the fear of any threat when relation to the use made of information obtained or administering the Customs Act and protecting our held by the Australian Customs Service. A brief borders. This is particularly the case in relation to outline of the proposals included in the bill is as Customs officers operating at sea when boarding a follows. ship. Unlike the controlled environment at an Currently, passengers and crew who arrive in airport, Customs officers do not necessarily know Australia on a ship or a plane are required to report in advance the circumstances they will confront on to Customs. In respect of such people, Customs has boarding. For this reason a special frisk search powers to ask questions, search bags and, subject power is being sought in these circumstances. to establishing a ‘reasonable cause’, conduct When an officer suspects that he or she is in danger searches of people. But there is a gap in these of being injured by a person on the ship, the officer powers. Customs does not currently have these will be able to frisk search the suspect person powers in relation to a large number of people who without consent and take possession, if necessary have access to ships and planes that have arrived with reasonable force, of any implement such as Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 569 knives, guns or other implements which could harm (including performance enhancing drugs) as well as the officers. in relation to other unlawful activity. Such arrange- The bill also proposes to give Customs officers the ments also assist efficient operational and regula- power to copy a document in circumstances where tory activity by Customs and other bodies. Special a Customs officer has reasonable grounds to safeguards are also included to ensure the appropri- suspect that the document contains information in ate protection of personal information. relation to the importation of illicit drugs. Such The bill also includes a proposal related to the information will be invaluable in the detection of control of weapons in accordance with the significant drug importations. Government’s gun control policy. The objective of In addition the bill proposes a number of amend- this proposal is that a person on a craft on an ments which will assist in the detection of drugs by international voyage visiting Australia, for example generally making Customs controls more effective a yacht, is to be subject to the same gun controls at the border. These may be summarised as fol- as if such a person arrived in Australia as a passen- lows: ger, similar to all Australians. To this end it is proposed that such a person be . A Customs officer currently has the power to required to keep such weapons in secure storage on require a vehicle to stop in a Customs place for board their craft for the duration of their stay in the purpose of checking goods leaving Customs Australia. If they are unable to provide secure control. There is no deterrent if the driver of the storage on their craft for the storage of the weapon, vehicle fails to stop. It is proposed to make it an the Customs officer is to have the power to take the offence in cases where the vehicle fails to stop. weapon into custody for the duration of the . Currently the act makes it an offence for craft or person’s stay in Australia. The weapon will be goods coming from a place outside Australia to returned to the person upon departure from Austral- go directly to a sea installation without Customs ia. permission. A similar offence exists in relation The proposals I have outlined will be of valuable to a craft or goods leaving a sea installation assistance to the Australian Customs Service in directly for a place outside Australia. It is controlling movements of people, craft and goods proposed to extend the application of this provi- across the Australian border, and in particular, sion to resources installation. The potential for enhance the ability of the Australian Customs sea installations to be used to breach border Service to detect importations of illicit drugs into controls is equally relevant in relation to re- Australia. sources installations. NATIONAL ENVIRONMENT PROTECTION . It is an offence under the act for an Australian based craft to transfer goods at sea to a craft on MEASURES (IMPLEMENTATION) BILL 1998 an international voyage. It is proposed to also INTRODUCTION make it an offence for the craft on the interna- The National Environment Protection Measures tional voyage to be involved in such a transfer (Implementation) Bill represents a further signifi- of goods. cant milestone in the development of environment . A Customs officer currently has the power to protection in Australia. The bill represents a board and search a foreign flagged ship in the commitment of the Commonwealth and the States Australian territorial sea. As a consequence of and Territories to work cooperatively to develop Australia becoming a signatory to the United and implement national environment protection Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, it is measures, a commitment which was agreed to by proposed to extend these powers to the contigu- the Council of Australian Governments in the ous zone in cases where the Customs officer has Intergovernmental Agreement on the Environment reasonable grounds to suspect that the ship has in May 1992. The Government made an election been, is, or is to be involved in the commission commitment to introduce legislation, as necessary, of an offence against the act. It is also proposed to implement the Commonwealth’s obligations to extend the area in which the general powers under the COAG Agreement in relation to compli- to board and search ships may be exercised to ance with State environment legislation. Introduc- include the sea to the landward side of the base tion of this bill fulfils the Government’s election line to the coastline of Australia as well as the commitment. territorial sea. It bears repeating that the objectives of national Amendments are also proposed to the Customs environment protection measures are to ensure that Administration Act 1985. These amendments will people, wherever they live in Australia, enjoy the modernise the official secrecy and disclosure benefit of equivalent protection from air, water, soil provisions and will recognise the necessity of pollution and noise and secondly, to ensure that arrangements for intelligence sharing in acting decisions by business are not distorted and markets against illicit drug smuggling and trafficking are not fragmented by variations between jurisdic- 570 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 tions in relation to the adoption or implementation . the making of regulations; of major environment protection measures. . the use of an existing law of the Commonwealth On 12 March 1998 the Senate Environment, which can deliver appropriate environmental Recreation, Communications and the Arts Legisla- outcomes; and tion Committee presented its report on the National . the carrying out of an environmental audit and Environment Protection Measures (Implementation) preparation of an environment management plan. Bill. The Committee recommended that the passage of the bill should proceed. The National Pollutant Inventory National Environ- However, passage of the bill was delayed due to ment Protection Measure was made by the Council proroguing of Parliament. The bill is the second in February 1998. Council also made two further part of a package of complementary State and measures relating to ambient air quality and the Commonwealth legislation. It follows the National transport of controlled wastes across State and Environment Protection Council Act 1994 which Territory borders on 26 June 1998. In addition, established the National Environment Protection measures on guidelines for the assessment of site Council and allowed for the development and contamination and used packaging materials are application of national environment protection also being developed. measures. National environment protection meas- COOPERATION WITH STATES AND TERRI- ures, which may be a combination of goals, guide- TORIES IN ENVIRONMENTAL MANAGE- lines, standards or protocols, will apply as valid law MENT in each participating jurisdiction. The bill is breaking new ground and will establish The first face-to-face meeting of the Council stronger co-operation between the Commonwealth occurred on 21 June 1996, after the States and and the States and Territories in relation to environ- Territories had passed mirror legislation to put in ment protection initiatives. place commitments to implement national envi- It is envisaged that the mechanism of application ronment protection measures. of State and Territory laws will be the first option The National Environment Protection Council Act considered for the implementation of a national 1994 determined that measures may be made in environment protection measure with regard to relation to: Commonwealth activities and sites. (a) ambient air quality COMPLIANCE WITH NATIONAL ENVIRON- (b) ambient marine, estuarine and fresh water MENT PROTECTION MEASURES quality; The Commonwealth, and the States and Territories (c) noise, where differences in environmental will have to comply with any national environment requirements relating to noise would have protection measure developed by the National an adverse effect on national markets for Environment Protection Council. This strong goods and services; commitment by all governments ensures national harmonisation of approaches which aim to protect (d) general guidelines for the assessment of site the environment. The National Environment contamination; Protection Measures (Implementation) Bill is the (e) environmental impacts associated with mechanism through which the Commonwealth will hazardous wastes; fulfil this important commitment. (f) the re-use and recycling of used materials; An exemption from implementing a particular (g) motor vehicles noise and emissions, also measure at a certain Commonwealth place or with where differences in standards would affect regard to a specific Commonwealth activity will national markets. ONLY be given on the ground of a matter of national interest. A matter of ‘national interest’ is OPERATION OF THE BILL confined to: The purpose of the National Environment Protec- (i) Australia’s relations with another country or tion Measures (Implementation) Bill is to provide Australia’s international obligations, national for the implementation of national environment security, national defence or a national protection measures in respect of activities by the emergency; or Commonwealth and Commonwealth authorities. (ii) a matter relating to telecommunications or The bill provides the means by which the the management of aviation airspace and Commonwealth and Commonwealth authorities are airports, including aircraft emissions, aircraft able to implement national environment protection noise and on-ground airport management, measures. These means consist of: but not including matters specified by 1.04 . the application of provisions of State and Terri- (2) of the Airports (Environment Protection) tory environment laws; Regulations; or Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 571

(iii) any other matter agreed to between the be taken into account, as must the environmental, Commonwealth, the States and the Terri- economic and social impacts of the measure. The tories. Council must also take into account whether the Australia is part of an international aviation com- measure is the most effective means of achieving munity and it is the Government’s view that the desired environmental outcome, and whether matters relating to aviation airspace management the measure can be simply and effectively adminis- and airport management would benefit from being tered. regulated under a single national regime. In provid- National environment protection measures must ing an holistic regime for the effective environ- also be consistent with the principles of ecological- mental regulation for airspace and airports, the ly sustainable development as outlined in the Commonwealth will be meeting the objectives of Intergovernmental Agreement on the Environment. national environment protection measures provided by the Intergovernmental Agreement on the Envi- As stated earlier, the National Environment Protec- ronment. tion Council has finalised Measures for the Nation- al Pollutant Inventory, the movement of controlled The bill provides for the implementation of national wastes across State and Territory borders and environment protection measures by another law of ambient air quality. These measures aim to address the Commonwealth if the Environment Minister is issues of national significance. satisfied it will achieve appropriate environmental outcomes. One of the Objects of the Airport The Government made an election commitment to (Environmental Protection) Regulations, made continued its support of the National Environment under the Airports Act 1996, is to establish, in Protection Council and promote measures that conjunction with national environment protection address ambient standards for marine and estuarine measures, a Commonwealth system of regulation water quality; packaging waste; the rehabilitation for activities at airports that generate, or have the of contaminated sites; and diesel fuel emissions. potential to generate, pollution or excessive noise. A number of studies have been undertaken to By operating in conjunction with national envi- ensure that the current measures being developed ronment protection measures, it is my view that the can stand up to rigorous scrutiny, both in relation Regulations will provide the appropriate environ- to their scientific basis and administrative efficien- mental outcomes. cy as well as their effectiveness in contributing to To ensure these outcomes are achieved, the Regula- achieving the desired environmental outcome. For tions prescribe the development of an environment example, the Government’s Air Pollution Inquiry strategy for each airport and the establishment of assisted the development of the ambient air quality an enforcement regime. measure through the funding of important work on Noise emissions from aircraft in flight or when air quality standards. landing, taking off or taxiing at an airport and An impact statement is required for each national engine emissions will continue to be regulated by environment protection measure by the National the Air Navigation (Aircraft Noise) Regulations and Environment Protection Council Act 1994. These the Air Navigation (Aircraft Engine Emissions) impact statements include comprehensive explan- Regulations respectively which will continue to ations of the measure and identify where possible meet Australia’s international obligations. economic, environmental or social costs or benefits In the case where State or Territory law is not the are likely to arise. mechanism for implementation of a particular NON-GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT IN national environment protection measure, there is THE DEVELOPMENT OF MEASURES an obligation on the part of Commonwealth auth- orities to implement the measure either through an Public consultation is an important component of existing Commonwealth law which will deliver the the process to develop national environment necessary environmental outcomes, through protection measures. Draft measures are published Commonwealth regulations or through development in the Commonwealth Gazette and submissions of an environment management plan. regarding the draft measures invited over a minimum of two months. Non-compliance with a national environment protection measure will be published in the Gazette, Non-government advisory groups, with membership and the details of authorities not complying will relevant to the various national environment also be publicly available through the annual report protection measures, have been involved in the to Parliament on implementation of the measures. development of those measures. Membership of these groups has included representatives of groups RIGOROUS DEVELOPMENT OF THE MEAS- as diverse as the Australian Institute of Petroleum, URES Minerals Council of Australia, ACTU, Greenpeace In developing a national environment protection Australia and the Queensland Conservation Coun- measure, regional environmental differences must cil. 572 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

Non-Government representatives have also partici- until 14 days after today, in accordance with pated in the technical advisory panels for national standing order 111. environment protection measures. Further, the community will have an opportunity to BUSINESS examine each draft measure and to provide submis- sions during the consultation period following Consideration of Legislation publication of the draft measure in the Common- Motion (by Senator Ian Campbell) agreed wealth Gazette. It is very likely that changes will to: be made to the national environment protection measures after receiving important feedback from That the provision of standing order 111(6) various sources during the public consultation which prevents the continuation or resumption of phase. second reading debate on a bill within 14 days of its first introduction in either House not apply to HARMONISATION OF ENVIRONMENTAL the following bills: OUTCOMES ACROSS AUSTRALIA National Transmission Network Sale Bill 1998 An outcome of the adoption of national environ- ment protection measures will be greater certainty National Transmission Network Sale (Conse- for business, and a greater capacity for industry to quential Amendments) Bill 1998. manage environmental issues which cross State bor- ders. HIGHER EDUCATION FUNDING AMENDMENT BILL 1998 While implementation strategies may vary some- what across States and Territories, it is likely that In Committee information will be shared between jurisdictions in relation to implementation of measures and that, The bill. over time, the implementation strategies themselves Consideration resumed from 24 November. will have a tendency to become uniform nationally. Senator CARR (Victoria) (9.34 a.m.)— CONCLUSION Minister, you were seeking an answer to a The passage of the National Environmental Protec- question I put to you when we were last tion Measures (Implementation) Bill is a landmark event for environmental management in Australia. discussing this matter. The legislation will provide the implementation Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— vehicle for the development of national environ- Special Minister of State) (9.35 a.m.)—The ment protection measures on, as I have mentioned question related to the Australian Research previously, a range of issues including ambient marine and estuarine water quality, packaging Council and a discussion paper. I believe that waste, the rehabilitation of contaminated sites and is where we left matters yesterday. I can tell diesel fuel emissions. the Senate that it has been almost 10 years Cooperation between the Commonwealth and State since the release of the last substantial policy and Territory governments in the development of statement on the role of higher education measures represents a major benefit not only to the research in Australia. people of Australia and to the environment, but also to Australian industry. Research and research training have never been more important to the nation’s econom- There will be benefits to the environment through the close attention given to the specific environ- ic, social and cultural wellbeing, and it is ment issues and to identifying an effective environ- critical, in the government’s view, that public mental outcome in development of national envi- expenditure on research and research training ronment protection measures. The Australian people be seen as an investment in the future. We will benefit through having access to equivalent should do everything as a government to get protection from pollutants wherever they live in the best possible value for the Common- Australia, and industry will benefit from ensuring competitive neutrality in relation to their activities wealth’s investment. throughout Australia. It is therefore appropriate, we believe, to I commend the National Environmental Protection look at this situation. A discussion paper was Measures (Implementation) Bill to you as an thought appropriate in this regard, and I am important achievement in environmental manage- advised by the minister that he will be releas- ment for Australia and for all Australians. ing shortly a discussion paper on research and Ordered that further consideration of the research training. As I understand it, the second reading of these bills be adjourned government’s position at this stage has not Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 573 been finalised. The discussion paper will be measures—research income from all sources released, and comment then will be taken on and higher degree research completions. A it. peak facility scheme is the final proposal—for Senator CARR (Victoria) (9.36 a.m.)— large-scale infrastructure projects to replace Minister, could you advise the Senate what the research infrastructure equipment and consultation has occurred to this point in the facilities program. preparation of this discussion paper? If these propositions are contained in the Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— paper—and I ask the minister whether these Special Minister of State) (9.36 a.m.)—I am are the propositions that are being advanced advised that the department has undertaken by the government—I ask: what steps will the the task of drafting the discussion paper and government take to protect the quality of has done so in consultation with various vice- Australian research projects and the interna- chancellors. tional reputation of Australian universities? It Senator CARR (Victoria) (9.37 a.m.)—I may well be argued that, should propositions read in the press that various vice-chancellors such as this be advanced, international are saying that they have not seen the docu- accessors would distrust the objectivity of the ment. For instance, I note a report in the Aus- processes and cease to participate in Austral- tralian on 18 November which says that ian research projects because, inevitably, it representatives of the Australian Vice-Chan- will lead to a narrowing of the research and cellors Committee have asked that they be funding focus. Applicants could be subject to provided with a copy. In fact, they have said the claim that the process has been contami- they thought it would have been courteous for nated by nepotism and by failure to examine them to have been sent a copy. A number of matters on an objective international peer senior vice-chancellors have been arguing that basis. Minister, I ask: are those concerns this has been put together in secret, and that justified? What action does the government the proposals contained in this measure go to intend to take to protect the quality of Aus- some fundamental changes in the way in tralian research activity? which research grants will be distributed. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— It is suggested, for instance, that there Special Minister of State) (9.40 a.m.)—There should be a movement towards internal are a number of questions there, Senator Carr, assessments and a removal of peer review for and I will address each one in turn. Firstly, the awarding of research moneys. It is sug- the paper is not yet in final form for release. gested that the proposals contain a provision As I said earlier, the minister will be releasing for portable scholarships for research higher that paper for discussion when it is in that degree students to replace existing postgradu- form. Those who are interested in this area of ate places funded through the operating grants research will then be able to comment on it. of the Australian postgraduate awards and that The drafting of the discussion paper is one there be a research and innovation scheme in which was engaged by the department, in the form of competitive block funding to consultation with some vice-chancellors. institutions to replace the Australian research Others will have adequate opportunity to schemes that currently operate and the bulk, comment when the paper is released. for instance, of the funding of the Australian National University Institute of Advanced It is a tenet of this government’s policy in Studies would be rolled into the new competi- relation to tertiary education that it will take tive scheme. Responsibility for allocating all steps necessary to protect the integrity of research moneys and the peer review process the high standards that we enjoy. The process would shift to the universities. that the government has embarked on con- It is further suggested that the government cerning this discussion paper is nothing proposes that a research training and environ- untoward; it is a normal process. I presume ment scheme replace the existing research that the opposition is not impugning the quantum, to be calculated equally in two integrity of the department in the way it has 574 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 conducted this. I think that answers the sulted. I have not been privy to that process various points of your question, Senator. of consultation. Senator CARR (Victoria) (9.41 a.m.)—I Senator CARR (Victoria) (9.44 a.m.)— appreciate the minister’s attempt to address Perhaps that is a matter that we will have to these issues. I beg to differ as to whether or take up in the estimates, Minister. I am sure not the questions have been answered. I you will look forward to that discussion. I notice in the press this morning that Dr Kemp ask: what guarantee will there be under this is not committed to a particular time line for proposal that there will not be a concentration the release of this report. Given the history of of research funding to the so-called big eight? this minister in terms of releasing matters for Has there been any consideration given for an public debate at times when there will be as equitable distribution of research moneys little public attention as possible, can the across the sector? minister assure the Senate that this report— Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— this green paper, as some have called it—will Special Minister of State) (9.45 a.m.)—This not be released over the Christmas period is touching on what I have referred to previ- when the academics and other components of ously, that the discussion paper will be re- the industry are out of circulation? leased and will be available for comment. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— That is the time to address these points, I Special Minister of State) (9.42 a.m.)—Dr would suggest, Senator Carr. I am really Kemp has said that the release of this paper unable to take it any further than that today. would be some time not very far in the future. Senator CARR (Victoria) (9.45 a.m.)—I I do not think the minister can be any more appreciate that, Minister. I asked yesterday a certain than that. Senator Carr knows how question concerning illegal fees being charged these things are done. That is as far as the by universities, which I would argue are in minister can go in the circumstances, and it breach of the HEFA Act, or certainly that is not unreasonable for that indication to be allegation has been made. I also note that the given. I note that Dr Kemp did say that the minister has announced that these breaches document would contain a very positive set of will now be investigated. Can you provide the proposals for university research. I think that Senate with any details of this investigation? indicates the government’s commitment to the What steps are being taken to immediately sector. review these questions? Senator CARR (Victoria) (9.43 a.m.)— Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— Minister, you indicate that some vice-chancel- Special Minister of State) (9.46 a.m.)— lors have been advised. I note in the press Perhaps it is opportune for me to address that a number of senior academics, including questions which were raised yesterday on this Professor O’Kane, the former chair of the and other matters. Firstly, in relation to the ARC’s large grants committee, has indicated ancillary fees matter that was raised yester- strong support for the international peer day, certainly there was an article today in the review system. As I understand it, she is one Australian which was entitled ‘DETYA to of the vice-chancellors that have not been tackle illegal fees claims’. The situation is consulted about this measure. Has there been that there are guidelines in relation to the fees any consultation with anyone else in the that can be charged by universities, being industry, apart from the government’s few such fees which are not essential to the hand-picked vice-chancellors? course. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— There have been some complaints—three, Special Minister of State) (9.44 a.m.)—I I understand—which the department has been understand that, apart from the vice-chancel- investigating. Two of those have resulted in lors that I have referred to, there have been a change of practice by the university con- some others, perhaps not of the same seniority cerned, and one is continuing. As stated in the as a vice-chancellor but nonetheless with article, the government will investigate claims expertise in this area, who have been con- that universities are charging students illegal Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 575 up-front fees. This matter has been under been restored. I believe the other matters in investigation, and should further complaints relation to funding were touched on yesterday. arise they will be looked at. In relation to section 23C, which is dealt Senator Carr asked yesterday about a drop with by clause 7, Senator Crossin asked a in operating grants of $590 million from 1998 question on the apparent reduction of $481 to 2000. That really is a similar question to million in 1998 down to $417 million in that posed by Senator Crossin in relation to 2000. What is not provided for in those clause 3 of this bill, which relates to section figures is the $36.8 million which has been 17 of the act. Of course, I stated yesterday provided for the year 2000 in relation to the that the apparent reduction in figures which strategic partnerships which I mentioned appears in the bill does not take into account yesterday. There is a reduction in those supplementation which would occur from figures that relates to the quality program, HECS contributions. The Department of which was a one-off program provided for by Finance and Administration has provided the previous government. The discontinuance figures which show that, in fact, the operating of that has resulted in the savings that we see. grants will increase from $4.879 billion in So, when you take that into account and then 1998 to $4.9 billion in 2000. That is when add in the $36.8 million that I have men- you consider the supplementation of the tioned, the situation is not as it would seem HECS contributions. in the bill as described at clause 7. On the question of open learning—and this is to Senator Crossin also asked me yesterday Senator Carr—there has been no change in how the HECS contributions were calculated the policy and this bill, I am advised, in no and whether there was any guarantee. I way affects that policy. indicated yesterday that these were based on Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- projections. These projections were arrived at tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian via the department and, of course, the depart- Democrats) (9.51 a.m.)—Yesterday I asked a ment of finance and the Commonwealth number of questions in relation to the inclu- Actuary. I understand that in that there is a sion of Notre Dame University in table A. I calculation of some 13 per cent for what thank you, Minister, for your answers on that could be classed as—for want of a better occasion. I wonder if you could expand on term—bad debts and that, in any event, the some of the answers you gave yesterday. For department of finance has guaranteed a top-up example, I asked you if you and the govern- if there is a shortfall. Yesterday I indicated it ment had given any thought to the signifi- was based on projections, but I am now cance of including, for the first time, a private advised that the department of finance will university in that triennial funding arrange- provide that top-up if it falls short of the ment. I understand the rationale that you have mark. It is the government’s view that it will put forward for the inclusion of Notre Dame, not fall short of the mark, but if it does there that is, that obviously funding of a triennial is that assurance from the department of nature provides more stability and certainty finance. for the institution. The other question related to James Cook I do not doubt the good work of this institu- University and the restoration of 450 places. tion, particularly in providing educational Senator Carr asked on what basis this had opportunities in the Broome region. I think all taken place. I can tell the Senate that there members of the chamber would be willing to had been a reduction in growth places which commend Notre Dame on its work, on its came about as a result of the university failing progress, but I state again for the record my to meet its targets. It appears that the univer- concern and also my query as to why the sity has improved its performance. After government is embarking on what is an consultations between the university and the unprecedented move of including a private department, there has been a revision of the university in that triennial funding arrange- situation and those 450 growth places have ment in table A and why we are not seeing 576 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 comparable institutions—I mentioned Avon- and public scrutiny as are existing in public dale College and Marcus Oldham yesterday— institutions? So it is unclear what accounta- not being included. I also brought up the issue bility mechanisms will be put in place as a of the new university, Australia’s newest condition of the receipt of this funding. public institution, Sunshine Coast. I acknow- This amendment gives a private institution ledge, Minister, that you have said it will be access to public operating funding without included in that table when the legislation is increasing the available money. Minister, brought to the chamber. But I still believe that please feel free to clarify that statement. Does that institution has good reason to question— this mean that public institutions will lose indeed every other public institution has funding and student places in order to provide reason to question—why the government a subsidy to private institutions? And the would take this unprecedented step of includ- National Tertiary Education Union goes on to ing a private university for the first time in ask other questions, such as: does the inclu- the triennial funding under table A. sion of a private institution within the same I will seek to move an amendment that category as existing public institutions pave returns to the status quo arrangements—that the way for competitive tendering for student is, to maintain Notre Dame in table B. I places by private providers? In the context of understand that that will not be widely sup- declining fully subsidised places, does this ported in the chamber, but I think it is an precedent mean that resources will be spread incredibly important issue, and that is why I even more thinly? give the minister a number of opportunities Again, Minister, while not seeking to once again to explain the rationale from the suggest that there is any deficiency or any- government and to explain perhaps why other thing wrong with the operations or the work private institutions are not being given the of Notre Dame University—like other mem- same so-called stability and certainty. bers in this place I commend its work, espe- I also would like to know the impact and cially in that Broome region—I would like to the implications of the inclusion of Notre know why the government is including a Dame University in that table. Obviously, private university in table A. I heard the apart from access to triennial funding, I am minister’s answers yesterday, and I am yet to just wondering what accountability and be convinced that this is an appropriate move reporting mechanisms the university will be for a private institution. I move: expected to comply with. The Parliamentary (1) Schedule 1, page 3 (line 5), omit "Table A", Secretary to the Minister for Education, substitute "Table B". Training and Youth Affairs, Ms Trish Worth, Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— said in the other House: Special Minister of State) (9.57 a.m.)—This This amendment will have the effect of providing will involve funding of $1 million per annum the university with triennial funding as opposed to out of a budget which is well in excess of $4 annual funding and will provide a capital roll-in and research quantum in the university’s operating billion. So the government rejects any asser- grant as well as enable the university to seek tion that this will detract from funding for funding under the capital development pool for other tertiary institutions of a public nature. major building works. In fact, the funding for this can be found from Minister, my understanding is that it is unpre- legislated superannuation which involved an cedented for a private institution to be in this excess amount. This small amount of funding funding category, but I would like to know will be found from that amount at no cost to some more of the implications of this deci- public funding for the tertiary education sion. Will this mean that other public institu- sector. tions miss out? I note that the National I indicated yesterday that this university Tertiary Education Union is asking similar provided for tertiary education in the form of questions. Will Notre Dame and any subse- teachers in an area which is a remote area of quent private institutions added to the act be Australia. In fact, that was touched on by the required to comply with the same conditions Leader of the Opposition in his letter. It is a Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 577 good point, because that places Notre Dame Minister, are you stating categorically that in such a unique position. This does not put money made available to Notre Dame Univer- Notre Dame’s Fremantle campus in table A; sity will not be at the expense of public it is the Broome campus that we are talking institutions? Is that what I can ascertain from about. It was the work at that Broome campus your comments? I saw your head nod, but that I referred to yesterday. So the funding of would you please answer the question in this relates to its Broome operations, which of relation to what regulatory and accountability course provide sorely needed access to tertiary mechanisms will be in place for Notre Dame. education. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— The National Tertiary Education Union Special Minister of State) (10.02 a.m.)—They ought to have a look at what Notre Dame will be the same as any university which has does in the north-west and perhaps look at the public funding. unique service it provides in tertiary education Senator CARR (Victoria) (10.02 a.m.)— in the Kimberley—to those people living in The opposition supports the proposed amend- remote areas—and also its indigenous educa- ment to the legislation and opposes the tion. It is not the only private university to be Democrat amendment. This is because we in table A. The Australian Catholic University recognise the work done by Notre Dame is also in table A. So this move is by no University at its Broome campus and its means the first of its kind, but it does provide teacher training at both campuses. The large for recognition of the unique work that is number of indigenous students at the Broome done by Notre Dame in a remote area and in campus—close to 80 per cent—justifies the the provision of tertiary education in that area, provision of access to the full range of operat- particularly in relation to indigenous students,. ing grants funding, including research and So the government feels that in this instance capital funding. With the exception of the two there is no excess of exercise of any discre- instances above, however, Labor does not tion. As I say, it is supported by the opposi- believe there is justification for further access tion and for good reason. I commend the to Commonwealth operating grants funding amendment—not the Democrat amendment, for Notre Dame University. the government’s amendment as contained in Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- this bill—to the Senate. With due respect to tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian Senator Stott Despoja, we do not believe her Democrats) (10.03 a.m.)—I thank the opposi- fears and those of others are substantiated in tion for clearly stating their position in rela- any way and we believe that to not allow for tion to this amendment. I will not be dividing this amendment would be a retrograde step in on this amendment because it is clear where the provision of tertiary education in what is people stand. I acknowledge once again the a remote part of Australia. work being done by the Broome campus of Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- Notre Dame University. I understand that is tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian the rationale which the opposition are using Democrats) (10.00 a.m.)—I thank the minister to explain the reason they are opposing my for his response. I think it is very important amendment. But with due respect, when to state once again, not only on behalf of the Senator Carr says ‘with the exception of the Democrats—I understand the Greens will be above, we do not support private institutions supporting this amendment—but also on being given access to public funding’, the behalf of the NTEU, that this is not a nega- point is—and this is the point of my amend- tive reflection on the work of Notre Dame as ment—where are we going to draw the line? an institution. To suggest that the National Most people in the community would have Tertiary Education Union is not aware of or a great deal of sympathy for the NTEU when supporting the work that is being done at the they state that this is privatisation by stealth. Broome campus is not a fair allusion. This I would like to see the government make a matter relates to private versus public institu- much clearer distinction as to which private tions and public funding of those institutions. institutions have access to public moneys and 578 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 why. Is it simply because you have arbitrarily Vanstone—argued that everybody had to take decided that this happens to be a particularly a cut and she thought reasonable access was good institution and that we all support the provided. work of that institution in the region, obvious- We have had the arguments about where ly, commendably, because it is doing work the public university system is attempting to with indigenous communities? Are there provide better access for indigenous students specific guidelines in place suggesting why and the minister saying that that was not this private institution over any other should possible because of general cuts in funding. be given access to public moneys? It is difficult for us to see that specific cases With respect to the opposition, I suggest can be made for redirecting funding, and I do that this is being done not only by stealth but not think there is any other way we can say that, as other representatives of the education it. The money has to come from somewhere. movement have suggested, this argument is, Whether it is tertiary education or some other once again, the thin edge of the wedge. sector, you do not create funding from thin Basically, we are now paving the way for air, and the government is always telling us private institutions to be in table A, that is a that. funding pool which enables them access not Neither of us is having a go at Notre Dame only to triennial funding but also to a range University; neither of us is criticising the need of other funding. The opposition has to realise to make universities more inclusive. However, that this is quite an important step today. The we have had many arguments about reduc- government amendments which they are tions in funding for student groups represent- supporting really do blur the distinction ing indigenous students, and we have had between public and private institutions when many arguments about the government reduc- it comes to access to public money for educa- ing funding for programs which specifically tion in this country. That is a serious step. try to cater for the needs and cultural values This is not a reflection on the particular of indigenous students. The government did institution, but it is very clear that the Demo- not seem to notice or pay much attention to crats and some others in this chamber believe that. It does seem to be selective. I am very that public money should be available first concerned about the precedent that is being and foremost to public institutions. I have set. I am prepared to support the concerns of grave concerns about the direction in which the student bodies. I will therefore be support- we are heading. ing the Democrats amendment. Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- (10.05 a.m.)—As Senator Stott Despoja has tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian mentioned, the Greens (WA) are prepared to Democrats) (10.08 a.m.)—I have a quick support the amendment put forward by the question for the minister. Minister, you stated Australian Democrats in relation to public that this change is restricted to only the funding for a private university. I understand Broome campus and will not apply to the the arguments that have been put forward by entire University of Notre Dame. For the the minister and I also understand what is record, could you state how you will ensure being sought to be achieved by Notre Dame that that is constrained? How will you ensure University in this particular instance. But I that it only affects that particular campus? can also think of examples where we have Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— stood in this chamber—and during Senate Special Minister of State) (10.08 a.m.)—I estimates committee hearings—and argued understand that there is an agreement with the about reduction in funding on programs university through the profiles process which within the public education sector. One that can accommodate this, and it will be based on springs to mind relates to universities like the places. That can be readily identified in Curtin University where the number of home relation to the Broome campus. I restate what visits for indigenous students was cut because I said earlier: this is only in relation to the the minister at the time—it was Senator Broome campus. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 579

Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- I wanted to ask on the matter. Given that this tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian bill has been before the chamber for some Democrats) (10.08 a.m.)—I understand that time, I conclude on this particular matter with process, but I suggest that there is no guaran- this question to the minister: can you advise tee that this applies to only the Broome the Senate whether the government is looking campus. By virtue of the way you put Notre at any form of voucher system linked to Dame University in the table, there may be research grants allocations for postgraduate certain agreements, but I cannot see how that students? is a guarantee that it will be restricted to only Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— the Broome campus. Do you accept that Special Minister of State) (10.12 a.m.)—In legally it could be extended, it could be relation to Senator Carr’s question on the broader, and it could apply to other parts of voucher system as it relates to the question of the university? research, these matters will no doubt be Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— discussed when the discussion paper is re- Special Minister of State) (10.09 a.m.)—In leased. I cannot in any way pre-empt the relation to its public funding, the university course of that discussion, and it would be best has to acquit the money in the way it has taken up when the discussion paper is re- been provided and for the purposes for which leased. it has been provided. For a start, I think the Senator CARR (Victoria) (10.13 a.m.)— university is a thoroughly reputable institu- Obviously that will be the case, Minister. To tion. I take it that you are not suggesting that conclude on this matter, in the second reading the university would in any way try to fiddle debate on this bill I raised the question of the the books or fudge the figures. The depart- adequacy of university reporting and the ment will ensure that that does not take place, attention drawn by Professor Walker of the as it does in relation to other matters. I can University of New South Wales to the incon- give the Senate every assurance that the sistencies in approach that are being taken by funding will relate to only the Broome cam- universities in that state. Specifically, he said pus. that universities were making internal deci- Amendment not agreed to. sions regarding the centralisation or devolu- Senator CARR (Victoria) (10.10 a.m.)— tion of administrative functions to hide the The minister made some responses to ques- true nature of their cost structures. tions I put to him yesterday. I thank the Professor Walker indicated that the financial minister and the department for answering reporting was inadequate and that those those questions promptly. On the question of measures did not reveal relevant data as a the operating grants, it is apparent that the result of poorly drafted instructions from figures contained in the bill are correct. There DETYA in regard to the ways in which these has been a reduction in the Commonwealth’s matters should be reported. He said that the contribution to universities; that is, there has failure of the department in this area had been a fall in operating grants of $590 million shielded the management of universities from from the 1998 level, with a further fall of appropriate performance scrutiny. $140 million in the year 2000 under this bill. Professor Walker indicated that, in the The supplementation referred to is drawn various figures tabled in the New South from students themselves and is in part a Wales parliament, universities had signed response to the government increasing HECS statements in their annual reports which charges by 125 per cent. This is money drawn indicated that the records they were present- upon as a result of revenues raised by those ing were a true and fair view of the results of increases in the Higher Education Contribu- the operations of the universities and that tion Scheme. I thank the minister for confir- signatories were not aware of any circum- mation of those matters. stances which would render any particulars I indicate that, in terms of the research included in the financial statements mis- question, I had not included all the questions leading or inaccurate. 580 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

Professor Walker goes on to suggest that tures, Ernst and Young’s developing of a that is in fact not the case because significant robust costing methodology for use in Aus- components of universities’ operations were tralian universities and the development of a not recorded accurately in those financial response to the Coopers and Lybrand review reports and were not consistent with various of university reporting requirements. other financial statements and because the In view of the work in progress that I have New South Wales Auditor-General had mentioned and the program which is being claimed that universities’ published budgets conducted by the AARF, it is the govern- did not encompass all financial transactions ment’s view that it is sensible to await the reported in their financial statements. My outcome of that work. The minister has said question to the minister is: does the govern- that he believes there is scope for improve- ment believe there is a need to standardise ment in financial statements from the point of reporting by formulating draft rules governing view of increasing transparency for stakehold- universities’ accounting practices which do ers and this is something that the government take into account these criticisms? When will is working towards. DETYA be able to effectively monitor the operations of universities and the profiles Bill agreed to. process without such reforms of the account- Bill reported without amendment; report ing guidelines? adopted. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— Third Reading Special Minister of State) (10.15 a.m.)— Bill (on motion by Senator Ellison) read a Firstly, I can assure the Senate that the third time. Commonwealth grants to universities are fully and effectively acquitted. Secondly, financial STATES GRANTS (PRIMARY AND statements of New South Wales universities SECONDARY EDUCATION have been audited by the New South Wales ASSISTANCE) AMENDMENT BILL Auditor-General and have not been qualified. 1998 Thirdly, in relation to the question of the development of financial reporting, I am Second Reading advised that the Australian Accounting Re- Debate resumed from 23 November, on search Foundation is conducting a program to motion by Senator Newman: achieve greater harmonisation between Aus- That this bill be now read a second time. tralian accounting standards and those of the Senator CARR (Victoria) (10.19 a.m.)— International Accounting Standards Commit- The States Grants (Primary and Secondary tee. The intention is to complete the program Education Assistance) Amendment Bill 1998 by the time the International Organisation of amends the States Grants (Primary and Secon- Securities Commissions provides its endorse- dary Assistance) Act 1996 to give effect to ment of the IASC accounting standards. the budget measures and to make a range of Advice from the Australian Accounting other changes. It provides $40.2 million to Research Foundation is that a new accounting extend the National Asian Languages and standard on financial operating statements Studies in Australian Schools Program to the should be issued in the second quarter of end of 1999. The NALSAS was an initiative 1999. It would be sensible to await the out- of the federal Labor government in 1994 to come of the work being undertaken by the support, enhance and expand Asian language AARF before any revision of the guidelines studies in all Australian schools. The languag- is undertaken. I am advised that there is work es targeted are Chinese Mandarin, Indonesian, in progress in the division on financial report- Japanese and Korean. ing and analysis. That includes the Deloitte I note that a study by the ANU late last financial statement analysis of universities’ year showed that more languages are taught financial health, the analysis of three-year in Australian schools than anywhere else in projections of university income and expendi- the world, particularly Asian languages. The Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 581 opposition supports this extension of that amount and in so doing will exacerbate NALSAS. We note, however, that the parlia- inequalities within our schools and restrict mentary secretary for education, during the educational opportunities. debate on the bill in the House, refused to The number of young people affected will confirm the additional $90 million for be heavily concentrated in the high areas of NALSAS promised in the coalition’s election youth unemployment. The government knows policy and that this was additional money to who these young people are although, despite be appropriated in this bill. So the $40 million our having raised these questions at the we are dealing with here could be part of the estimates process, it seems unable to come $90 million, which is very much part of the forward with the relevant information. The style of the creative accounting which we number of recipients of the youth training have come to expect from this government, allowance—those 16- and 17-year-olds who and particularly from this minister. will be affected by the youth allowance from The bill provides some $20 million for the 1 January next year—can be identified by so-called full service schools initiative to help postcode but, instead of providing additional schools cope with the influx of additional funding to the schools in these areas, the students which will occur from next year as government is taking submissions for funding a result of the introduction of the Youth under the so-called Full Service Schools Allowance. This $20 million is part of a $40 Program. million package of measures to help schools While a submission based approach may be cope with the impact of the Youth Allowance. a good way to encourage ideas, it is not the The other measures in the package, $13.5 only way. I have concerns that the manage- million for the Jobs Pathway Program and ment of the allocation of funds by submission $6.2 million for the new Apprenticeship may lead to a situation where schools despe- Access Program, simply continue programs rately in need of additional support do not put in place by the Labor government. receive it. I understand that some principals The then Department of Employment, of schools in high unemployment areas are Education, Training and Youth Affairs pre- not preparing submissions, because they pared what has now become a famous cabinet believe that the $20 million being provided is submission last year which recommended totally inadequate to meet their needs. expenditure of $140 million to help schools The Labor Party believes young people cope with the influx of students as a result of should finish their education and we encour- the Youth Allowance. The government’s age participation at all levels of education, but package falls $100 million short. Schools will we do not believe that schools can cope with have nowhere near enough money to cope an influx of young people who are largely with the services needed, given that up to alienated from the education system, and in 27,000 16- and 17-year-olds will be returning many cases from society as a whole, without to school next year due to the Youth Allow- there being additional resources to enable ance. them to do so. The amount provided in this These young people will need special help bill is nowhere near what is needed, and that to complete their studies and to ensure that is a fact acknowledged by the minister’s own they do not disrupt the learning of others. department. Some will need basic literacy and numeracy The bill also provides for flexibility of programs. In many cases they will need funding allocations under the Literacy and individual case management. They will need Country Areas programs so that most ABS one-to-one tuition. This government has not census data can be used for determining provided sufficient resources to do that. The relative need. This means determining the former coalition education minister in Queens- allocations between the states and sectors. But land estimated that each additional student what has happened beyond that? My informa- would cost an extra $7,000, yet the Howard tion is that, in removing the so-called red tape government is providing only one-tenth of in the 1996 changes to the targeted programs, 582 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 the coalition threw out the baby with the projected figures for Commonwealth schools bathwater. Along with the word ‘equity’, funding to the year 2000. The table provided mechanisms which showed how targeted included attributed amounts of financial money was being distributed by systems have assistance grants for each year from 1996 to disappeared or at least are not working as 2000. I have had some work done on that they ought to. table, and the results were extremely reveal- For all the minister’s huffing and puffing ing. The work I had done shows that the about literacy, the opposition is not convinced amount of FAGS attributed to the government that literacy funds are going to the neediest schools—that is, the percentage of untied schools and students. This is particularly the grants assumed to be spent by the states and case in my state of Victoria, where substantial territories on government schools—was not cuts to programs, running into millions of the 17.6 per cent which, according to the dollars, have occurred. This bill has inserted minister’s department, is the correct figure. amounts for capital funding for non-govern- My calculations show that for each of the ment schools of up to $74,537,000 each year years from 1996 to 2000, the table provided from the year 2000. This amount has declined by the minister attributes 20 per cent of the from $84,672,000 in 1999 and is $39 million FAGS to government schools. I ask: how do less than the $113 million that Labor provided the government and the department explain in 1996. This extraordinary decline is causing this discrepancy? major concern in the non-government school That is not all; there is a great deal more. sector, and I call on the minister to give an For example, Dr Kemp’s FAGS figure, which explanation. he assumes to be a percentage spent on The amount provided for recurrent capital schools and then claims as Commonwealth expenditure for 1997 and subsequent years is money, includes amounts which are clearly adjusted by this bill in the most recent rounds earmarked for purposes other than schools— of supplementation. This leads me to the amounts like $400 million annually in identi- important issue of the real and nominal fied road grants incorporated into FAGS for figures on Commonwealth school funding. 1997-98, and $370 million for 1998-99 which This is a question that I have pursued with was previously separately identified as health some vigour in the estimates. I have received funding. totally unsatisfactory answers from the offi- These amounts, while notionally part of the cials in this regard—totally unsatisfactory financial assistance grants pool, are clearly answers which I expect are being directed by destined for uses other than education. It the minister. defies credibility to expect us to believe that The amounts provided need further investi- the states will channel money away from gation and much closer examination. On 12 other areas of need—like roads and hospi- May this year the minister for schools claimed tals—in favour of schools. So the FAGS pool that the federal budget provided $153 million used by the minister is artificially inflated. To extra for schools in one year—a 3.8 per cent claim, as the minister does, that one-fifth of increase on the previous year. By 24 May the roads and health funding goes to schools is a claim had become an increase to government nonsensical argument. It is just as nonsensical schools of only $380 million in 1998 com- as his claim that the $1.6 billion cut to FAGS pared with 1996. Neither figure allows for the imposed by the Howard government in 1996 true year-on-year comparison because they are had no impact on the states’ capacity to fund not in real terms. The second one includes schools. attributed FAGS funding, which we were told Dr Kemp wants to have his cake and eat it in the Senate estimates hearing on 10 June as well. He wants to maximise the size of the had to be revised down from 24 per cent to FAGS pie and claim a percentage of it as 17.6 per cent. Commonwealth schools funding, but he also Subsequently, the answer to question No. tries to argue that if you cut the size of the 223 from the same estimates hearing provided pie it makes no difference to the Common- Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 583 wealth’s contribution. The people of Australia These figures do not include the impact of are not falling for this one any more. the enrolment benchmark adjustment. That Minister, it is time to start dealing with the will be a cut over and above the declining facts and not with fantasy. expenditure revealed in the minister’s own documents. The enrolment benchmark adjust- The work I have done factors out those ment is an unjust and unjustifiable cost- amounts for road funding and health expendi- cutting measure which is decried by teachers, ture. It also seeks to turn figures into real, parents and school authorities right around comparable dollars rather than nominal Australia. The EBA is a piece of public amounts. In the table provided in response to policy so bad, so inequitable and so abhorrent question No. 223, the minister claims that that there are calls for its removal across there is a per capita increase in Common- traditional boundaries between government wealth support for government schools of and non-government schools and between 13.5 per cent—from $1,987 in 1996 to $2,255 Labor and non-Labor state governments. in the year 2000. On these calculations, adjusted for an inflation figure of three per Taking money away from schools whose cent—which is a very conservative amount enrolments are increasing is unfair and is given the recent supplementation outcomes totally unacceptable policy. In 1997, New and the array of indices provided to the South Wales government schools enrolled estimates committees on cost increases for 2,839 more students than in 1996 but lost schools—there has actually been a decline in $4.3 million through the EBA—equal to the per capita payments to government school $1,081 for every government school in the students of some 7.4 per cent from $2,047 in state. In Victoria there were 1,414 more 1996 to $1,896 in the year 2000. This is students in 1997 than in the year before yet further proof that the minister’s figures cannot the EBA reduced funding by $1.73 million— be relied upon. They are, in fact, doctored. more than $1,000 for each government school. In South Australia the EBA represent- This explains the government’s flat refusal ed a cut of $3,557 for each school. In Queen- to provide official real funding figures to the sland the cut averaged $1,986 for each school. Senate. It has been done in the past, but the For each of the additional 8,495 students practice changed after this government was in enrolled Australia-wide in government schools office for a few months. Ever since the table last year the Commonwealth through the EBA which the opposition obtained through the cut funding by $1,400. This amount far Senate estimates process in 1996 exposed the outweighs the per capita payments made by truth about what this government is doing to the Commonwealth for government school school funding, this practice by the govern- students of $379 for each primary school ment has ceased. That table showed a decline student and $559 for each secondary student. in the real funding for Commonwealth contri- So the additional students represent a net loss butions to government schools of $87.5 to the states of at least $841. million between 1996-97 and 1999-2000. There is no doubt about this. Despite the In the second reading speech on this bill in fact that this government has attempted to the House the minister claimed that Common- hedge these figures, a clear examination wealth direct funding for schools will increase reveals what many have known for some each year between 1997 and 2000 by an time: the presentations that the government average of 2.5 per cent. But if one looks at has made are inaccurate and misrepresent the the government schools only, even the real funding allocations by government to the minister’s own figures, which are in nominal, students of this country. not real, dollars, show a fall in direct It is about time the minister revealed the Commonwealth funding in the year 2000— official figures. We will give Mr Evans and $1.684 billion as compared with $1.730 his group in the parliament the opportunity to billion in 1999. In real terms the fall will be present their view of the real funding figures much greater. in terms of real allocations of dollars. But the 584 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 situation cannot go on. There is an attempt to effectively in the face of vastly inadequate present these figures in a way which is totally resources, the Democrats certainly have no inadequate and false. This attempt demon- desire to hold up the passage of this legisla- strates to me the total lack of credibility tion today. But I do want to take the oppor- attached to this government’s statements tunity to put on the record yet again the very about the level of funding for education. serious concerns we have about the amount of This is not about making sure that funding funding the government is making available follows the students under the EBA measure, to schools, which will be faced with vastly as the government has continued to try to tell increased demands as a result of the us. It is about cutting funding to government government’s Youth Allowance eligibility schools. It is about cutting opportunities to guidelines. Estimates of the number of stu- students in this country. It is about reducing dents likely to either stay at or return to choices and limiting life chances. This school because of the Youth Allowance government has taken these actions deliberate- requirements vary considerably. Last year the ly and in a most destructive manner for government said that figure was somewhere ideological purposes. It is no good having the between 25,000 and 27,000, but it has now department seek to present these measures in revised that figure and indicates that it is any way other than what they actually are or 8,200. I might add that Victoria has said that try to cover-up what is an obnoxious, totally it expects this figure to be 6,000 in that state unjust and inequitable policy. alone. I would ask that Dr Kemp focus his atten- The Australian Council of State School tion on education and training and on provid- Organisations estimates that the overall ing factual information to the Australian funding impact on schools will be closer to people about the directions of policy in this $150 million than the $21 million which is on government in terms of educational opportuni- offer. There is a problem here in terms of the ties for all Australian students. We can only differences in expectations of students who hope—and I suppose it is more hope than will remain in schools who would otherwise experience—that he will heed the call which not do so, and that is because we are talking is now coming from all sections of the educa- here about a fixed sum—$21 million over tion community in Australia that this govern- three years, or $7 million a year—regardless ment move to abolish this totally unfair and of whether it is 27,000, 25,000, 8,000 or unjust policy. 6,000. That is what is really inequitable about Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (10.37 this amount of money. a.m.)—The bill we are considering today, the Many will go back to schools they have States Grants (Primary and Secondary Educa- previously left, and many will no doubt think tion Assistance) Amendment Bill 1998, of themselves as adults already and resent introduces two main changes to the States having to return to school. For those students Grants (Primary and Secondary Education who do not want to be in school this will be Assistance) Act 1996. These are the allocation something of a nightmare. I think it is useful of $21 million for the introduction of so- to refer today to a document which has been called full service schools over three years, prepared by the Successful Learning Project and the allocation of $40.2 million for the entitled Negotiating, Staying and Returning: extension of the National Asian Languages Young People’s Perspectives on Schooling and Studies in Australian Schools strategy. and the Youth Allowance. In that publication The Democrats will, of course, be supporting the following factors were identified as this bill because we understand that schools influencing early school leaving. The first is need the very small amount that is being the type of school system: the vast majority offered, which will be available to them for of early school leavers have a government programs such as these. school background. The second is gender: With so many schools already facing more young men than women leave school enormous pressures in trying to operate early. The third is ethnicity: Koori students Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 585 are the most seriously disadvantaged of all funding. They are the ways in which young school leavers. The fourth is regional differ- people are treated; the nature of the courses ence: rural areas have higher levels of early on offer; the institutional flexibility of the school leaving. The fifth is socioeconomic delivery of courses; and the support struc- status: low income is predominantly linked tures, especially for those with most negative with early school leaving. The sixth is change experiences, in providing both initial and of locality and residential insecurity, especial- ongoing support. The report argues that to be ly homelessness; the next is early and chronic successful the nature of the responses required truanting, a clear indicator of early school at the system level and the school level must leaving; and the last is family expectations of include arrangements which reward schools schooling, although this has declined as a and colleges for returning students and suc- factor since the mid-1980s. cessfully re-enrolling students. That document The reason I point to those is that they goes into the reasons why those enormous indicate the sorts of areas in which this disincentives exist for schools. It reads: funding will be needed to address this prob- Melbourne suburban school principals are generally lem of students being at school who would careful to balance the quest for overall student numbers with a focus on getting the ‘right sort of otherwise not choose to be there. As a former student’—who will present positive images of the teacher, I can tell you that students who do school, and who will produce positive ‘educational not want to be at school can be a real night- outcomes’. Archdall argues that schools do not mare for the schools and for the students want to be seen as catering for the more ‘needy’ themselves. So, when it comes to many of students as they will then be termed a ‘welfare’ these returning students, the importance of school; parents who want an academically rigorous curriculum will move their students to a school specifically designed programs and carefully which does not have such a ‘welfare’ label. Being designed support structures cannot be overem- perceived as a school that cares for the ‘welfare’ of phasised. students may then result in a lowered perception of it being able to provide a quality education, and Aside from the $21 million, the federal thus increase the danger of forced closure because government will pay its usual $550 per capita of falling numbers. The message is clear: individual on average to these students. But, as has schools which attempt to cater for the welfare already been mentioned by my colleague, the needs of their students do so at the ‘risk’ of being rest will have to be found by the state govern- labelled. ments. As we know, it costs around $4,500 to That is just an excerpt from this report, which educate a student in a government school, but comes from the Dandenong Regional Youth here we are talking about special needs, and Committee response. principals estimate that the costs of providing The report also suggests that there needs to worthwhile programs for returning students be a case management approach that aims to will be closer to $7,500 per capita. So, instead match individual students to existing or of providing $435 per student if you take the emerging options, to work with them in higher estimate of 27,000 who will be in this appropriate placements and to continue to category, or roughly $1,000 per student if you offer support and guidance. The staffing accept that it is only 8,000 students who will formula for schools and units should under- be returning, it does not measure up to what take to accept and retain difficult students, to the government ought to be providing, which work with returning student needs, and to is around $3,000 extra per student for this recognise the particular personnel needs of measure. curriculum development and delivery and of The ACEE Equity Network newsletter, an providing support for students beyond the education publication, in its August edition classroom. A staffing formula should acknow- reviewed the work that I have previously ledge the implications of flexible timetabling mentioned, Negotiating, Staying and Return- and attendance requirements—in other words, ing, and outlined four critical areas which will extra staff. There should also be flexible impact on the success or failure of the pro- development of courses and approaches at grams that we are talking about here with this individual school and college levels. 586 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

One thing that all of the principals and shortage of teachers this would cause would teachers I have spoken to have made very be addressed by the federal government. The clear is that providing the sorts of programs most serious concern for the Democrats is the that are needed with the current proposed shortage of teachers, along with the inadequa- funding levels will be virtually impossible. cy of this level of funding. Even with the most optimistic reading of the Senator CARR (Victoria) (10.49 a.m.)—by numbers coming back into schools, $1,000 leave—I indicate that, while the opposition for each student, if one was to allocate it on supports this bill because it is an allocation of a per capita basis, would barely pay half the moneys, we are highly critical of the way in cost of an ordinary classroom teacher. As I which this government is proceeding to think I have already demonstrated, there is a allocate those moneys. To demonstrate our far greater need for resources for schools to concerns more specifically, I move: cope with this situation. At the end of the motion, add: One of the most serious consequences of "but the Senate condemns the Government for the youth allowance legislation is the effect it damaging Australia’s schools, including by will have on the demand for teachers and, in failing to provide them with adequate re- particular, the impact on students and schools sources to cope with the expected increase of up to 27,000 students a year as a result of the in rural and remote areas. I have raised this introduction of the Youth Allowance". matter previously. It is a very serious and immediate problem arising from teacher Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) shortages in this country. (10.50 a.m.)—Much of what I have to say this morning has already been covered by my Barbara Preston’s report for the Australian colleagues Senator Carr and Senator Allison. Council of Deans of Education, published just But it is important to further put on the record two weeks ago, shows that 4,500 positions that, while this bill will provide schools, will not be able to be filled next year. I have states and territories with funding of $21 done an extrapolation from those figures, million for the introduction of what they say which shows the direct impact of the youth is the Full Service Schools program, that is allowance on that demand for teachers. In $21 million over three years. This is by no New South Wales 386 teachers will be re- means adequate if you look at the facts and quired but will not be there because of the figures in relation to the number of young youth allowance. In Queensland the figure is people on whom the youth allowance is going 177; in Victoria it is 561; in Tasmania it is to impact around this country in the next 52; in South Australia it is 94; in the Northern three years. As we know, the common youth Territory it is one; in the ACT there will be allowance will affect young people aged 15 a surplus as a result, which is unusual; and in to 17 from 1 January 1999. They will have to Western Australia the shortage will be 107. be engaged in full-time education to qualify That totals 1,386 teachers who will be re- for payment, unless they meet special exemp- quired because of the extra numbers that the tions. This is going to have an enormous youth allowance will demand in our schools. impact on schools across Australia. I want to foreshadow that, during the There has been an allocation set aside for committee stage, we explore the possibility of states and territories to help fund what we delaying the implementation of the effect of now believe is an expected 27,000 students this legislation. That is so we can look at between the ages of 16 and 17 years returning those figures to examine whether there are to school. In the federal budget only $24 some immediate steps that need to be taken million was allocated over a three-year period to increase the number of teachers who can be to assist schools with the implementation of made available and to stop any very serious the common youth allowance. This hardly consequences of this legislation, which the meets the former DEETYA’s estimate of $140 government did not manage to raise at the million per annum—not $7 million per time the youth allowance legislation was annum—that will be needed to help schools introduced. There was no suggestion that the cope with the influx of students in 1999. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 587

The impact of the policy on the common profession. We already know this through the youth allowance is going to severely affect Senate inquiry into the status of the teaching many young people and their families. Firstly, profession, to which the government is yet to it is going to force some young people who respond. I have my own thoughts about why are living independently back into their family that is the case: it is because the recommenda- home. Secondly, it is going to force young tions in that inquiry are too near the bone. We people with family conflict to stay living in know there is low morale amongst the teach- the family home. Thirdly, I believe it is going ing profession. We know that the profession to create severe financial pressures on fami- attracts people. However, the tendency is that lies. The other serious implication of the people who get into the profession become common youth allowance is that it increases overworked, have limited resources and get the age of independence in this country, for extremely stressed. More people leave than the first time, from 18 to 21. the profession can attract these days. Ulti- I think it is important to note that this $21 mately, the status of the teaching profession million in funding will be provided to schools has become less highly regarded in this in areas with the highest numbers of young country. Time and time again, when people people affected by the implementation of the say, ‘My kid has left school’ or ‘School is not common youth allowance. One of the ques- catering for their needs’ or ‘The curriculum tions I will be putting to the minister will be is not appropriate’, the blame is always put on how they are going to ascertain that. We need teachers. The resources that are given to to look not only at the areas that have the schools and the lack of assistance that is highest number of young people but also the given to teachers to grapple with the many different environments of each of the states demands they have in this day and age are and territories. I will explain a little bit about very rarely looked at. that later when I come to the analysis of the I think we need to look at the impact of the Northern Territory and what happens there. common youth allowance and the measly The other thing I notice is that the funding amount of $21 million over three years when will address the needs of young people who it comes to teachers’ supply and demand will be forced to return to school following protection. Senator Allison has already com- the introduction of the youth allowance, and mented on the recently released report by the for current students who are at risk of not Australian Council of Deans of Education. completing year 12 or of making a successful That report, titled Teacher supply and demand transition from school to training. That is a to 2004: 1998 updated projections has been significant number of students across our prepared for the Australian Council of Deans school system. I believe $21 million does not by Barbara Preston. The methodology in the take into account the fact that a lot of young report is rigorous and comprehensive and the kids leave the schooling system originally predictions cover the non-government as well because it does not cater for their needs. As as the government school systems. The we know, there is a high incidence of youth conclusions in the report are clear and com- suicide and youth drug use. I do not think the pelling. I will concentrate today on tables 18 $21 million goes any way to addressing the and 19 and will table them when I have poor self-esteem that young people sometimes finished my analysis. suffer from in a downward spiral as they In this report there are consistent trends grapple with what skills they will need for across Australia towards a significant period their future—or what future they are going to of undersupply of appropriately qualified have—and where they see themselves in later graduates. The most serious and extended life. shortages are expected in Victoria and South I want to say also that the commitment by Australia. From 1999 to 2004, the supply of this government of only $21 million in school teacher education graduates in the primary funding over three years to the states and sector will be only 80 or 90 per cent of territories adversely affects the teaching demand. At the secondary level—and I will 588 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 refer to the implications for the common effect will probably be proportionally greater youth allowance—the shortfall is expected to than in the nation as a whole. be greater in that supply will be only about I would like to remind this chamber again 70 per cent of the demand. The $21 million that, unless you live in one of the five major over three years, according to our brief, will centres in the Northern Territory—Gove, be for: Darwin, Katherine, Tennant Creek or Alice the employment of specialist teachers or counsel- Springs—your only access to secondary lors, providing professional development for education is through a correspondence school. teachers and other staff or delivering and develop- This is a national indictment on the delivery ing special courses or assisting students to access government and community support services. of education in this country. We are talking about providing programs for youth who will But the $21 million will fail to attract the be affected by the common youth allowance large increase in teacher numbers that this when, in the case of the Northern Territory, program will warrant. if you do not live in one of the major cities, The figures on a state by state basis are there will be no access apart from secondary quite astounding. Tables 18 and 19 provide correspondence courses. Those correspond- national totals of supply and demand for ence courses are predominantly targeted at primary and secondary teachers, including kids who live on pastoral stations and who supply as a percentage of demand and the size will complete year 11 or 12 either through a of projected surpluses or shortages. Table 19 public exam or a school assessed system. in this report adjusts secondary demand to There is no secondary education outside the take account of the expected impact of the major centres in the Northern Territory. It is common youth allowance. This table suggests something that this nation should be ashamed that, across Australia for 1999—let alone up of. to the year 2004—the demand will be 8,334 Getting back to the impact of the youth teachers. The actual supply is only 5,262 allowance around the country, this report teachers, which leaves us with a shortage of suggests that in New South Wales the imple- 3,072. When we take our projections through mentation of the common youth allowance to the year 2004, that shortage becomes will exacerbate the shortfall in 1999-2000, 3,192. with supply in those years, as well as at the When we have a look at the implementation end of the period, less than three-quarters of of the common youth allowance, we see that demand. In Victoria, the impact is expected it will result in an increase in secondary to move from a moderate to a severe shortfall, enrolments of about 25,000 students, which is especially at the secondary level. about one-quarter the increase necessary to Senator Carr—That is dead right. bring retention to year 12 to 100 per cent. Senator CROSSIN—That is right, and the The secondary shortfall will be much more expected shortfalls in the next two years in serious in 1999-2000. Victoria will increase substantially. Again, There are a number of major factors in the there will be little change in the expected projected shortfalls that are outlined in the shortfalls in the subsequent years. report, but I think it is important to have a In Queensland, the report concludes, the look at what effect the common youth allow- implementation of the common youth allow- ance will have on all states and territories. ance is expected to severely exacerbate the In the ACT, retention is already very high, shortfalls. For Western Australia there is the so the effect will probably be quite minor. I same comment. In South Australia, the imple- might place on the record that perhaps bu- mentation of the common youth allowance is reaucrats sitting in the ACT might think that expected to take supply well below half of $21 million will be an adequate amount if teacher demand in 1999-2000. In Tasmania, they stay within the bounds of the Australian the introduction of the common youth allow- Capital Territory. But in Tasmania and the ance is expected to ameliorate the 1999-2000 Northern Territory where retention is low, the surpluses, the increased senior enrolments in Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 589 part making up for the reduced year seven take public assessment exams. They will need enrolments. assistance to get into an alternative learning But, let us turn to the Northern Territory pathway; they will need to undertake voca- because, of all the states and territories this tional education or they will need to be report refers to, the Northern Territory not channelled into the new VET in schools only attracts comments about the shortfall of programs—all on a shoestring of only $7 primary and secondary teachers in greater million a year. proportions than for the nation, but the attrac- Finally, colleagues I speak with from my tiveness of teaching in the Northern Territory background in the teaching profession say to and how difficult it is to retain teachers in the me that this adds to their low morale; it adds Northern Territory are talked about. It says to the fact that teachers are being asked to do that the Northern Territory school authorities more each day with less; it adds to the fact will need to do more than increase their we are still waiting for the government’s interstate recruitment efforts. response on the status of the teaching profes- Historically, there have been very high sion. If the government’s response is only to resignation rates in the Northern Territory. provide these people with $21 million over Therefore, much more effective strategies to three years to cope with the large influx of support teachers in the positions they find 16- and 17-year-olds they expect back in their difficult and generally improve the attrac- schools over the next three years, it will fail, tiveness of teaching in the Territory, thus and it will fail because there is no commit- lowering the resignation rate, may be essential ment to provide the resources to do any for reducing the demand for replacement better. teachers who will become very difficult to I do not want to be standing here in the find. This is all within a projected national Senate chamber in three years time hearing commitment of only $21 million over three that this new, you-beaut common youth years. allowance policy did not work because the This report says that, because of the already teachers did not put in the commitment or high retention rates in the ACT, the introduc- because there was not enough effort on behalf tion of the common youth allowance is of the systems to make it work. It will only expected to have only a minor impact. So we work if there is a commitment to fund re- have one territory out of all our states and sources, a commitment to fund more teachers territories where this report of the Australian in the system so these young kids get a better Council of Deans of Education suggests there go over the next couple of years. will be a minor impact, but generally the Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— evidence is there, based on supply and de- Special Minister of State) (11.07 a.m.)—Much mand of teachers, that there will be a severe has been made of that aspect of the States shortfall. Grants (Primary and Secondary Education In conclusion, this money will target spe- Assistance) Amendment Bill 1998 which cialist teachers, but not teachers who initially deals with the full service schools and the will be required to be there to cater for the provision of some $21 million over three influx of these students; professional develop- years in relation to this program. Of course, ment for teachers who are already there, and what senators from the opposition and the devising specialist courses. You are going to Australian Democrats fail to have regard to is need additional teachers to actually devise the the total expenditure for education and the courses. You are going to need additional other programs that supplement the full teachers to get out there to work with ITABS service schools program. I thank those sena- and industry groups or to set up curricula tors for their contribution. At the outset, let whereby these kids who are being forced to me say that total direct Commonwealth return to school—bearing in mind there were schools funding will provide in excess of $16 probably substantially good reasons why they billion for schools over the period 1997-2000. left in the first place—will not have to under- The Commonwealth budget papers show that 590 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 funding for schools is estimated to increase Senator Crossin said that students have each year to 1999-2000 with an average good reasons for leaving school. I can say increase of around of 3.6 per cent a year. that, in many cases, young people do have Let us look at the facts. This government good reasons for leaving school because they went to the people of Australia a few months are going to a job or they are going to train- ago in the federal election with a plan for the ing. But, in many instances, young people do future education of the young people of this not have what I would call sufficient reasons country. But it went to the people of Australia for leaving school. They leave school without with a strong record on education. We had sufficient training or backup. So that $40 brought about, with the cooperation of the million for the middle years of schooling is a state and territory governments, uniform supplementary, if you like, to this whole full benchmarks, national goals, in relation to service schools approach. literacy and a plan to develop numeracy as we We have to look at those that have just left have developed literacy—in years 3 and 5, school and we have to look at those that are national goals for literacy. at risk of leaving school. The $21 million that When I travelled around this country during has been spoken about deals with the question the election campaign, it was apparent to me of returnees and keeping those at risk at that literacy was one of the greatest concerns school. The number of students quoted by the of Australian parents. This was despite the opposition and the Democrats, we believe, is fact that the opposition and minor parties not a correct number. It will be much less downplayed this when this government raised than the 27,000 students estimated by the it as a serious issue in the last parliament. We opposition and Democrats. We believe that have provided funding to meet literacy and the returnee figure is more like 8,000 stu- numeracy needs. We have provided $680 dents. When you combine that with the million over four years for literacy and nu- retainees of 12,000, you get a figure more like meracy. As well as that, we promised that in 20,000. The variation in the returnee figure this parliament we would provide an addition- comes as a result of amendments to the Social al $72 million over three years to improve Security Legislation Amendment (Youth literacy and numeracy standards in schools. Allowance) Bill 1997. We also pledged to provide an additional $40 What the opposition and the Democrats fail million over four years to ensure high literacy to recognise is that in Australian schools we and numeracy standards in the middle years have in place courses which are currently of schooling. addressing those students at risk. This is The middle years of schooling is perhaps an particularly so in the areas of vocational area which is sometimes overlooked and is education. Vocational education is perhaps crucial, because it is from this current band of one of the greatest areas of growth that we students that we are looking to increasing see. Since 1992, the number of students retention rates. The full service schools relates engaged in vocational education training to addressing the fall in retention rates that courses at school has increased by over this country has been experiencing in its fourfold. That recognises the growth in this schools. In 1992, the retention rates were at area. We as a government believe that this is 78 per cent. In 1997, this had fallen to 72 per crucial in addressing those students at risk. cent. Something had to be done about this. Because of that we have provided $200 The parents of Australia wanted us to address million over four years to assist students it and we had to address it, because we had combine study towards a senior secondary young students leaving school with nowhere certificate with nationally recognised and to go. They were leaving school without accredited vocational education and training. adequate training, with no direction. So the Therefore, whilst you are at school you can full service schools, combined with the youth embark part-time on a traineeship or appren- allowance, is designed to address this drift of ticeship. When I travelled to many schools students away from schools. across Australia I saw some successful exam- Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 591 ples of young students increasing their liter- three years. That is a pledge we have made acy and numeracy skills, going through to that will come into effect in the year 2000. year 12, but at the same time embarking on We have already put $42 million into this part-time training—accredited training—which crucial area to take us through to 1999. I meant that when they came out of school they agree with Senator Carr when he says that had a clean transition from school to work. there is a huge take-up of Asian languages Their training whilst at school was nationally and studies in this country. I saw it when I accredited and nationally recognised. That travelled around Australian schools—I was makes perfect sense. formerly minister for schools. I saw many We have also committed $80 million to the successful courses. This innovation in our Australian Student Traineeship Foundation to election platform was widely greeted wher- enable schools to develop school based ever I went because it gives two great benefits industry courses with local businesses. I can to the Australian people: it teaches its young advise the Senate that the number of students people Asian languages so that in future when who are enrolled in foundation programs has we deal with our neighbours we can deal with grown from 18,000 at the end of 1996 to them in their own language if needs be; it 38,000 in 1997. We have also provided $13.6 also brings about more harmonisation in our million over 1998-2000 to help schools own society and an understanding of our become job placement agencies and mentors Asian neighbours and those people of Asian for their school leavers. extraction living in Australia. There is a win- win aspect to this whole program. In the So it is not just the $21 million that we are future, when Australia does business in the looking at for those students at risk of leaving South-East Asian region it will have a young school and returning to school. We are look- generation who will be in control when ing at $80 million for the Australian Student dealing with our Asian neighbours, who will Traineeship Foundation to work with industry; be able to speak to them in their own lan- $13.6 million for job placement to assist guage. schools; $200 million over four years to assist But there is more in this bill. There is the students engage in part-time studies and country areas program and the issue of pro- training at the same time; and $40 million for viding flexibility for that. Senator Crossin literacy and numeracy programs, targeted at mentioned the question of how we are look- that crucial middle year sector of schools— ing at education in country areas. I share that that is, looking at those students who will be concern, coming from the state of Western questioning whether they will stay on at Australia—the greatest state in area in this school in the next year or so. If you add all country—and I have seen the difficulties that that together with the full service schools, you you have with remote education. That is why have a comprehensive plan by this govern- in our election platform we announced fund- ment to address the decline in retention rates ing for the basic boarding allowance for from 78 per cent in 1992 to 72 per cent in isolated children. We announced an additional 1997. That is a deterioration that we have to $23.6 million over five years to increase that address, and we are addressing it. basic boarding allowance so that isolated Much was made about the shortage of people could send their children to school. teachers. This bill deals with funding for We also announced, and have in place, schools and school programs such as full programs in relation to indigenous education. service schools and national Asian languages There is $80 million worth of practical pro- and studies. In the last parliament we provid- grams that will achieve outcomes for indigen- ed $42 million for national Asian languages ous students. As well as that, there is $6.2 and studies to take us through to the end of million for intensive English studies for those 1999. We then committed in the election indigenous students who do not have English campaign $90 million to take that further, as a first language. We have had the Depart- from the year 2000 and for the following ment of Education, Training and Youth 592 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

Affairs working with the Department of female. So, obviously, there is a pool of Communications, Information Technology and qualified teachers out there who are not the Arts in a strategy designed to maximise seeking employment. Of course the teaching the increase in technology in delivering profession is ageing and there are great distance education to those remote parts of demands being placed on it. During my term Australia. This government regards education as minister for education I acknowledged that in regional Australia as crucial. We recognise and the work that Australia’s teachers were that there are difficulties, and we are working doing in this country. The ministerial council to address them. of education ministers commissioned the Teacher shortage is an aspect which the development of a teacher recruitment strategy. opposition and the Democrats have made Individual states and territories would be able much of today. As I stated earlier, this bill is to adapt this to address local requirements, designed for specific programs and the appro- and I am happy to say that the Common- priation of funding for Australia’s schools. wealth is committed to 50 per cent of the Teacher supply was dealt with in the report funding for this research because it is import- mentioned by the Democrats, which was ant to look to the future. written by Ms Preston and which involved the What I can say in relation to the work of Australian deans. What that report is at odds teachers is that this government recognises the with in relation to the states is the question of very good work that teachers are doing in teacher shortages. Let us look at what some Australia today. In fact, it was with a view to state ministers have said. The Victorian that that during the recent election campaign minister in a letter published in the Age on 31 we announced some $75 million over three October this year said: years to a quality teacher program to update Department of Education figures indicate that the and improve teachers’ skills and promote and supply of teacher graduates will meet demand well lift the status of teaching in government and into the future. non-government schools. The government is Similarly, the South Australian education yet to respond to the status of teachers in- minister was quoted in the Advertiser on 31 quiry. It will do so—of course, in between we November this year. He said: have had an election which has perhaps The state government did not expect a teacher distracted us somewhat—but we did put our shortage in 1999 apart from the usual difficulty in money where our mouth was during the filling about 10 positions. election campaign by announcing this $75 This bill is not about addressing teacher million which will go to a quality teacher shortage. It is about addressing education in program. I believe that that is a very import- Australia’s schools and funding specific ant step indeed and really does show the programs, which I have mentioned. A major importance that this government places on difference between the Australian Council of keeping teachers up to speed with their Deans of Education report and departmental professional development. So there is no work is the treatment of the pool of qualified question of the government ignoring any teachers who are available to re-enter the teacher shortage or ignoring the status of teaching force. The Australian Council of teachers. Deans of Education report focuses on recent So when you look at aspects of this bill, graduates and argues that the pool dissipates you need to look at what this government is as people obtain teaching work or other doing in the total area of education and in employment. This does not allow for qualified professional development of teachers. You teachers who have left for family reasons and need to look at our track record where we are now seeking to re-enter the teaching force. have addressed those big issues of literacy Australian Bureau of Statistics data for and numeracy, where we have addressed the 1996 shows that there were some 14,600 question of vocational education and training unemployed persons with education qualifica- in schools to the extent that it has never been tions and that 75 per cent of them were recognised before, where we have allowed Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 593 accredited training to occur within our PAIRS schools, and where we are allowing this Lundy, K. Newman, J. M. flexibility to give young Australians great * denotes teller opportunities to go on for training and subse- Question so resolved in the negative. quent employment. Original question resolved in the affirma- Question put: tive. That the amendment (Senator Carr’s) be agreed Bill read a second time. to. In Committee The Senate divided. [11.28 a.m.] (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret The bill. Reid) Senator CARR (Victoria) (11.33 a.m.)— Ayes ...... 33 Minister, in the election campaign and in your Noes ...... 33 second reading speech summary you indicated —— that the Liberal Party had promised an addi- Majority ...... 0 tional $90 million for the Asian language pro- —— gram. Is the $40 million which is appropriated AYES in this bill part of that $90 million? Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. Bishop, T. M. Bolkus, N. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— Bourne, V. Brown, B. Special Minister of State) (11.33 a.m.)—No, Carr, K. Collins, J. M. A. it is not. That is the separate amount, which Conroy, S. Cooney, B. I mentioned earlier was announced in the last Crossin, P. M. Crowley, R. A. parliament. We have two amounts for Asian Denman, K. J. Evans, C. V. Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. languages and studies: $42 million which will Hogg, J. Hutchins, S. take us through to the end of 1999 and $90 Lees, M. H. Mackay, S. million which will take us beyond 2000. Margetts, D. McKiernan, J. P. Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.34 Murphy, S. M. Murray, A. O’Brien, K. W. K. * Quirke, J. A. a.m.)—Minister, I note your comments that Ray, R. F. Reynolds, M. the state governments are saying that supply Schacht, C. C. Sherry, N. will meet demand. Are you not even mildly Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. concerned about the report of Barbara Pres- Woodley, J. ton? Do you discount it altogether? How do NOES your remarks and those of the state education Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. ministers sit with the report of MCEETYA, as Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. I understand it, which shows that there will, Chapman, H. G. P. Coonan, H. * in fact, be severe shortages in mathematics Crane, W. Eggleston, A. Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. and science teachers and in teacher supply for Ferris, J. Gibson, B. F. rural and remote areas? How do you reconcile Heffernan, W. Herron, J. the Barbara Preston report, which I would Hill, R. M. Kemp, R. argue is a very thorough document, with the Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. statements of the state ministers and are you Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. looking beyond that? What sort of mecha- MacGibbon, D. J. McGauran, J. J. J. Minchin, N. H. O’Chee, W. G. nisms will you use to see that this dire short- Parer, W. R. Patterson, K. C. L. age of 4,500 teachers next year does not Payne, M. A. Reid, M. E. become a reality? Synon, K. M. Tierney, J. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— Troeth, J. Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. Special Minister of State) (11.35 a.m.)—In my previous statement, I did not necessarily PAIRS Campbell, G. Tambling, G. E. J. discount the report by the Australian Council Cook, P. F. S. Campbell, I. G. of Deans of Education. I pointed to areas Faulkner, J. P. Alston, R. K. R. where we would distinguish the report from 594 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 what state education ministers were saying; of the Youth Allowance will have the result that perhaps there were a few aspects upon that the report says it will. which the report was built that were at vari- We will have to take on notice the state-by- ance with the way we see it. The department state breakdown. I do not think we have that has said that in discrete areas there may be yet. The strategic committees set up in the some shortages which are perhaps not national states and territories have been working on but are occurring on a local or regional basis. this. When information is to hand, we will We do not discount the question of teacher provide it to you. supply as being of no moment. In fact, that is why the Commonwealth has contributed 50 Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.38 per cent of funding to a national strategy for a.m.)—Minister, you mentioned that the teacher development and recruitment. That is Commonwealth was sharing the funding for something which is being developed at the this teacher recruitment strategy—and I ministerial council of education and training understand that you said it was paying 50 per which is under way at the moment. cent. How much is that? What does that funding pay for? Is it to write a document or My remarks are not dismissing any con- is it actually to provide teachers? How much cerns but are simply made on the basis of let is it? For what period of time? Has it already us not overestimate the situation in the im- been spent? What is it for? mediate term and let us not overstate any Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— short supply and create an atmosphere of Special Minister of State) (11.39 a.m.)—I panic. We need to approach this on a rational understand that an amount of $200,000 has basis at a national level with the cooperation been provided by the Commonwealth and that of the states and territories, and that is what the report will be finalised by the end of this is being done through the ministerial council year. That has been done in conjunction with of education. the individual states and territories. I would Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.37 have to take on notice to provide greater a.m.)—You will recall that in my speech in detail of the work they have engaged in and the second reading debate I made mention of with whom they have consulted. That has an extract of the figures prepared by Barbara been developed through the ministerial coun- Preston in which the total number of teachers cil of education ministers. required to implement the youth allowance, to Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.39 meet the needs of those students staying on at a.m.)—As I understand it, one of the strat- school who would not otherwise do so, is egies to come out of that work in South 1,386; that is, presumably 1,386 classrooms Australia was to provide some sort of HECS will not have teachers as a direct result of the replacement fee so that teachers would be youth allowance. Are you saying that that encouraged to enter teaching courses, and so figure is also unreliable? If so, what is your that there would also be some sort of scholar- estimation of the direct impact on the demand ship or arrangement in place—and I do not for teachers of the youth allowance? Do you have any of the details—which would encour- have that on a state by state basis? age teachers who had left the work force Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— some time ago to return and retrain. Special Minister of State) (11.37 a.m.)—In It seems to me that it is a Commonwealth relation to that figure of 1,386 teachers, I fail responsibility and not a state government to see how that is needed for an expected responsibility to forgive HECS or in some cohort of students numbering 20,000. As we way to fund the up-front fees that are required say, we have some 8,000-odd returnees, plus for retraining or to fund the HECS fees. Has 12,000 who would stay at school. If you add the Commonwealth considered putting in that together, you get 20,000. Why do you place such steps to increase teacher numbers? need 1,386 extra teachers for that cohort of Even if we take the lower figure of 8,000 20,000? I do not think those figures jell. That additional students, it seems to me that the is why we say that we do not think the impact Commonwealth has some responsibility to see Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 595 that teachers are in place and that they are seems to me that there are a lot of question either retrained or are coming on in the marks there. system to meet the needs of that very low I put it to you that it would be wise to estimate. delay the implementation of the forced return Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— of these students to schools for at least 12 Special Minister of State) (11.41 a.m.)—The months until we get some of this sorted out. detail of this report is yet to be finalised Would you consider doing that? The Demo- because, as I said, the report will be finished crats would move an amendment to this effect by the end of this year and will be put before if it were possible with this legislation but, the next ministerial council of education unfortunately, it is not. Would the government ministers—which would be in about March or consider this—given that there are so many April next year. I cannot pre-empt what that unknowns and given that, as you say, you do report will say. If there is any Commonwealth not want to take unilateral action? involvement, that will have to be looked at in Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— conjunction with the states and territories. It Special Minister of State) (11.44 a.m.)—I would not require the Commonwealth to dispute that we are approaching this from a march off and take unilateral action. position of ignorance. We are saying that the Obviously, we would want to work through question of teacher supply is very important this report at a ministerial level with the states and, as a result of that, the Commonwealth and territories. I think that is as far as we can government, with the state and territory take that. What we are looking at is more in governments, has commissioned a report the long term. You are asking what the which will deal with a national strategy for strategy will be for this program which will recruiting teachers. I think that is a thoroughly come into place in January next year. We are responsible course of action to take. It indi- saying that we cannot see any problem in the cates how seriously we regard this. near future, but we are concerned to ensure It does not mean to say that we believe the that in the interim and long term there is not ship is going down and we should all aban- a problem with teacher supply. That is why don ship and run for the lifeboats. It is a we have embarked upon this report. normal, prudent course of action that any Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.42 responsible government would take and that a.m.)—With respect, Minister, it is difficult is to keep an eye on the medium- to long- for you to say that there is not a problem. term supply of teachers. We do not believe You have already indicated that this commit- that there is a short-term supply. We do not tee is looking at teacher recruitment strategies believe that the numbers of students which and examining the figures. You say that you will be affected by this program are such that would not be prepared to take unilateral it will cause disruption to the hundreds of action, but in a sense you are already doing thousands of Australian students enjoying that—you are already implementing a pro- education in this country. We predict on the gram which makes a higher demand on figures that we have that there will be some teachers. There is already significant evidence 8,000-odd students returning to schools across that the shortage is there. Australia and there will be perhaps another I think you are arguing from a position of 12,000 who will stay on at school. That ignorance in terms of this question. There is 20,000 will not have the impact that some a lack of knowledge about how we are going people are saying that it will. It is 20,000 to recruit teachers and there is some uncer- students compared with hundreds of thou- tainty—in your mind, at least—as to whether sands of students, the total population of the shortages outlined by Barbara Preston are school students in Australia. real or somehow manufactured. There is also To delay that another year we believe uncertainty about how many students are would be irresponsible because, as I stated, in actually in this category and what extra 1992 the retention rates of students at school demands the Youth Allowance is making. It was in the region of 78 per cent. That fell in 596 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

1997 to 72 per cent. We believe that there is I just want to put on the record the fact that a problem when you have the rate of retention those figures do not stand up to much scru- of Australian school students dropping at such tiny when you look at those updated projec- a rate. That is an important thing which I tions. I am happy to table my extrapolation found when I travelled around Australia from your projections, which is simply adding visiting schools and talking to parents. It is a up and figuring out the average increases, if problem which has to be addressed and we that would be helpful to you. cannot put it off for another year. We have to The point I really want to make, however, deal with it now. Dealing with issues is the is that I think that the Commonwealth is not task of being in government, and this is one facing up to its responsibilities in respect to issue which has to be dealt with now. Another teachers and I think that to put your head in year will make it worse. the sand and say, ‘This is not going to make much difference to schools’ will be very Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.46 damaging for your government. I think that a.m.)—It would appear to me that dealing the problems are going to be there in those with this question by forcing young people to areas which have traditional difficulty in stay in school is not an answer. As I said in finding teachers. They are, of course, the rural my speech on the second reading, as a former and remote areas and subjects like mathemat- teacher I know that simply forcing young ics and science. people to stay in school will not force them to learn. It will have no effect whatever on We already have a dumbing-down, if you the outcome except to perhaps worsen the like, in that area. School teachers who have situation, particularly in schools that do not an arts degree and follow that with a Diploma have adequate programs. I think we have of Education are finding themselves teaching managed to demonstrate that the needs for senior mathematics and science. If those adequate programs in schools are extreme. teachers are not adequately trained, if they do Even at the best possible figures imaginable not have a science degree before going into that you have put forward of 8,000 students, teaching, then they are not going to make the that is still only $1,000 a student. We also subject exciting for their students and there know that that is not going to all students will be a downward spiral in terms of support who would be in this category, but that is for science and education in particular. And another argument. they are just two areas. This is something the Democrats will be Minister, I wanted to just draw attention to watching very carefully. If Barbara Preston’s some figures. You said, as part of your projections are accurate, then I think this will response to the issues raised, that the govern- come home to roost for the government. The ment had a very comprehensive overall plan government has been warned: Barbara and that its total expenditure was much higher Preston’s previous report was not as alarming since coming to office. I just want to remind as this one is but, nonetheless, it did send a you that the projections from 1996 right very strong warning to the government that through to the year 2000, as updated for the something would need to be done about table prepared for the states grants bill, show teacher shortages. As she says, we cannot a rather different picture. The average annual rely, as Mr Kennett in Victoria would have increase in funding for government schools, done, on all the teachers who were sacked— the total direct funding, was a mere 3.05 per and there were 8,000 in Victoria—coming cent. In the attributed FAGs you say there back into the teaching work force. Some will. was an increase of 4.2 per cent. I think that Many will need retraining—and I do not see Senator Carr has already pointed out that that any money in here to assist with that—but is a claim you cannot necessarily make. In most will be getting on with their lives. They non-government schools the increase is much find jobs in other occupations, occupations higher, 7.18 per cent and 3.6 per cent for that are a lot easier than teaching, I have to attributed FAGs. say, and they move on. They move location- Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 597 wise and they move into having families. cut by your government in the last budget. I They are no longer there as a pool of teachers need to remind you, as well, that it is all very ready to go. well to talk about $40 million in literacy and I urge you again to look at this report, to numeracy but, likewise, the funding for those question the advice you are getting from the special projects was cut by your department. states and from your department and to So you have really dressed up extra money as seriously address this question, because the being additional when it is not. It is simply Commonwealth is responsible for part of that rejigging something that was previously taken shortfall. If Barbara Preston’s figures are at all away. accurate, 1,300 more teachers are required as I think it is disingenuous of you to suggest a result of the Youth Allowance. Again, I that all of those areas of funding are new urge you to examine this question and not money. They are not. It is money that has simply leave it up to who knows what and been cut or has been broadbanded, I think just wait for the outcome which is really only was the phrase. You cannot claim that that a couple of months away. money is all new and is all extra. I come back The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- to the figures that are there: even if we were tor Bartlett)—Senator Allison, are you to add the amounts that you have indicated, seeking leave to table the document? it would not show anything like the sort of increase that you suggested earlier on in this Senator Ellison—I would be happy to see debate. That 3.05 average annual increase that. percentage over 1997 through to the year Senator ALLISON—I seek leave to table 2000 might be bumped up to 3.1 per cent, but the document. it really does not make a great deal of differ- Leave granted. ence. Saying that $16 billion is going into Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— education really does not mean anything Special Minister of State) (11.52 a.m.)—I unless we look at the relativity of that figure might just point out that the figures men- and see what your government has done to tioned by Senator Allison do not include all public education. the programs. In fact, I have alluded to some Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) of them—indigenous education, Australian (11.55 a.m.)—Minister, Dr Kemp made this National Training Authority funds for VET in statement in his second reading speech: schools, school to work funding and the state Funds for Full Service Schools projects will be government funding. They are not included in directed to schools in areas with the highest the amounts which have been mentioned. numbers of young people affected by the imple- When I say that there is $16 billion of fund- mentation of the Youth Allowance. ing, you have to look at the total funding Can you provide for me information on what which is from government sources. body, or who, will be determining the areas May I just say on the teaching aspect that affected? How will the funds be allocated? we do take seriously the question of teacher What consideration will be given to the development. That is why we announced $75 allocation of those funds other than to perhaps million during the election campaign for the areas in which there are high numbers of professional development of teachers. Part of young people affected? By when will that be that is also to increase and improve the status done? of teachers which, we believe, will go towards Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— enhancing teacher recruitment. Special Minister of State) (11.56 a.m.)— Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (11.53 When the Commonwealth set out upon this a.m.)—Minister, you provoke me to respond course, it caused to be set up in each state to that—I was not going to. Seventy-five and territory strategic committees which million dollars for professional development would then assess where the needs lay in will be welcomed by teachers, but I must relation to these young people. What was remind you that professional development was looked at—because we did not have the youth 598 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 allowance then to rely on, but we had the Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) youth training allowance—was the number of (11.58 a.m.)—I note also that the funds are to recipients of the youth training allowance. provide for additional support for schools to develop innovative programs and services. Dr These committees stem from the various Kemp suggested in his second reading speech education departments in the states and that that might also go towards employing territories and are working in cooperation with either new specialist teachers or counsellors. the Commonwealth. That work is being But what of schools which do not choose to conducted at this point. Some of the things do this? Can you clarify for me who will be that are being looked at include, for instance, developing the innovative programs and clusters. One example I saw in Queensland services? I am assuming that, if schools do involved three schools where one could act as not put in a bid to use the money to employ a source, or a centre, for students who could specialists or counsellors, existing teachers in possibly be going to all three, and it would those schools will be given this additional draw upon students from that area. Things workload to undertake. will vary greatly, of course, depending on the geography and demographics. There is no Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— question of that. This will not be uniformly Special Minister of State) (Midday)—It is true spread across the country, and that is why the that in some schools you already have teach- respective committees are looking at their ers who are well-qualified to undertake these own states and territories to see where this tasks, so I would envisage that some schools need lies. would not put in a bid which involved em- ploying someone extra. I have seen first-hand Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) some very good courses and examples where (11.57 a.m.)—Minister, further to that: will teachers have been doing this sort of work. those steering committees be putting in a bid With the retainees, they would continue to do to access some of these funds or will the the work with those students at risk. There funds be allocated on a state and territory would be no change. They would continue to basis, at which point they will then have to work with those students. You would then allocate simply what they have been given? have the returnees whom they would take on and deal with. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— Special Minister of State) (11.58 a.m.)—The The question is whether or not they need process is that the committees invite applica- someone extra. From some of the examples I tions from schools within their various states have seen, they do not. In one example I saw and territories. The applications then go to the in Queensland there was a teacher dealing committees and the approvals are made by the with four students who were at risk. They minister concerned, who would be Dr Kemp. were dealt with quite separately from the normal cohort of students in that year because Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) of the various problems they had. It was (11.58 a.m.)—Further to my question: how is proposed that that teacher could accommodate that $21 million to be allocated around the any student who came under this program country? Will state and territory steering because he was well-equipped to deal with committees put in a bid for that $21 million, students who had a number of factors going or has the department determined how much on in their lives, such as a dysfunctional money each state and territory will get, which family life or perhaps a drug problem. This those steering committees will then allocate? teacher was well-equipped to deal with those things. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— Special Minister of State) (11.58 a.m.)—Each This is an instance where the teacher could state and territory will provide an indicative deal with those at risk plus those who might figure of the amount that the particular state return to school. But in some schools they or territory needs. The funding will be done may need an additional person with the on the basis of that. expertise to deal with them. We do not see Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 599 that as a problem. We do need the flexibility Bill reported without amendment; report so that when it is necessary for the schools to adopted. bring in someone with the expertise they can. Third Reading One school I saw was proposing that they would deal with the returnees in a different Bill (on motion by Senator Ellison) read a way because these students had left school. third time. They knew that they could not put them in a SPACE ACTIVITIES BILL 1998 classroom with other students. They would have them attending at perhaps a different Second Reading hour of the day and they would be dealing Debate resumed from 12 November, on with a vocational education and training motion by Senator Kemp: course which was on offer at the school. That this bill be now read a second time. Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) (12.02 p.m.)—Minister, is the government Senator CROSSIN (Northern Territory) perhaps suggesting that this teacher, who is (12.05 p.m.)—My contribution to the debate coping quite well with four students at risk— on the Space Activities Bill 1998 is to simply and there are probably many of those kinds of place on record the proposal and to make teachers around this country—would be mention of what is happening at the Christ- expected to do a similar job if the number of mas Island satellite launch facility. I am returnees increased to 10 or 12? Surely there aware that this bill seeks to regulate what is must be some recognition on your part that in happening in this industry. I am also aware that situation there needs to be a variation to that there are two other areas in this country the student-teacher ratio by the provision of which this bill will regulate. My particular an additional teacher or additional resources, interest is in what is happening on Christmas or a recognition that that person cannot Island because for federal matters it is under continue to exist under similar circumstances the jurisdiction of the Northern Territory with an increase in student numbers. electorate. Senator ELLISON (Western Australia— As a senator for the Northern Territory, I Special Minister of State) (12.03 p.m.)—In want to say a few words about the proposal that particular instance the idea was that any for the Asia Pacific Space Centre, better returnees could be dealt with at a time differ- known as the Christmas Island satellite launch ent from the other students. In any event, facility proposal. Christmas Island is a small there is nothing to stop the school putting in island of 135 square kilometres and has about a bid for extra resources. The teacher con- 2,000 residents. With regard to the satellite cerned saw no problem coping with returnees. launch facility there are differences of opinion If there were too many to be dealt with at amongst my constituents on Christmas Island once you could stagger the classes dealing as to whether the proposal should or should with them. That was one aspect that could be not go ahead. The Asia Pacific Space Centre looked at. If that did not turn out to be appro- proposal is one of three commercial satellite priate then the school could look at applying launch facilities currently being pursued in for added resources to put into another teach- Australia. There is another in Queensland and er. The person I spoke to seemed more than another in Woomera in South Australia. happy to accommodate any extra student load The Minister for the Environment and Heri- in that situation. It really has to be looked at tage has previously determined that the Asia on the basis of what the school has on offer. Pacific Space Centre proposal for a satellite Some schools have some very good courses launching facility would require the prepara- in hand already and what they might need is tion of an environmental impact statement. not extra teachers but extra resources in the This draft environmental impact statement various courses they provide by way of should soon be released for community con- vocational education and training. sultation. I know that Christmas Island resi- Bill agreed to. dents are eagerly awaiting its release. 600 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

In a press release that Senator Robert Hill as Christmas Island, where only 10 per cent issued back on 29 May this year he outlined of the population are European, that the that he had determined that a proposal by the consultations are conducted thoroughly in all Asia Pacific Space Centre Pty Ltd to build a languages so that everybody concerned has a satellite launching facility on Christmas Island complete understanding of what is being would require the preparation of an environ- proposed and what are the implications. At mental impact statement, and this announce- this stage, having visited Christmas Island, it ment by the minister was certainly welcomed. is my conclusion that some people there He went on to say that the preparation of an misunderstand the proposal and are feeling environmental impact statement would ensure fairly threatened and frightened. That is that all environmental impacts of the proposal mainly due to the fact that a lot of the infor- are fully assessed. mation has not been provided to them in a It is important that any potential impact on language that they can understand and feel Christmas Island’s natural and cultural heri- comfortable with. So, on behalf of my con- tage is taken into account before the approval stituents on Christmas Island, I remind Sena- of this proposal goes ahead. Eighty-five tor Hill that future consultations should in fact square kilometres of the island are now be in a language that everybody on the island covered by the Christmas Island National can understand. Park, reflecting the unique ecosystems and As well as being important to ensure that biodiversity contained on the island. Christ- Australia attracts investment by commercial mas Island contains a number of unique interests in the areas of satellite launch facili- ecosystems and five nationally listed endan- ties and other related activities, it has been gered species. said that it will ensure that Australia will meet As I am sure the EIS will demonstrate, its obligations under United Nations space there are both pros and cons regarding the treaties. It is essential that there is clear satellite launching facility, but it is vital that legislation to establish and apportion liability the residents of Christmas Island have all the in the event of any damage caused by a information they need to make an informed satellite launch. As has been spelt out in the decision about whether or not they want the Space Activities Bill explanatory memoran- launch facility to proceed. Seventy per cent of dum, the risks inherent in space launch the residents of Christmas Island are Chinese operations dictate close monitoring and in origin, 25 per cent are Malay and only 10 supervision of launch activities to protect the per cent are European. With this in mind, I community from unsafe practices. I know the would hope that the Chinese-Malay popula- people of Christmas Island will be watching tion, many of whom speak English as a closely to ensure that, if the satellite launch second language, have the opportunity to have facility proposal does go ahead, residents will their concerns explained in the appropriate be protected in the case of damage or acci- language. If the proposal does go ahead, it dents and that there are adequate environ- will introduce a technologically sophisticated mental safeguards in this event. operation to the island which would be likely Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- to have a major impact on telecommunica- tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian tions, air services and shipping services. The Democrats) (12.12 p.m.)—May I begin, Mr target date for this project is the year 2000. Acting Deputy President Bartlett, by saying The Space Activities Bill will establish a how nice it is to see an Australian Democrat regulatory framework for space activities in sitting in that chair for a change. I wish you Australia. I want to place on record that, well in that new position. I rise to speak to whilst we welcome what is outlined in this the Space Activities Bill 1998, an initiative bill, there is a need for companies such as the designed to provide a comprehensive frame- Asia Pacific Space Centre Pty Ltd to bear in work for space activities in Australia and mind, when they are conducting consultations involving Australian interests. There is pres- about building launch facilities in areas such ently no regulation for the licensing, safety Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 601 and liability of Australian launch activities. an active industry policy to identify and The justification for this legislation is to develop, sector by sector, export and import secure the investment needed for commercial replacement opportunities and the adoption of success of Australian space ventures. the latest innovations and technologies. I would like to say something about the Secondly, we support the nurturing of a importance of governments taking the initia- highly skilled work force that is capable of tive to set in place the framework for new meeting the demands of the future, which industries. Australia has a heritage of space presently requires a massive boost to our science and astronomy participation—and a education sector. Thirdly, we support review- long history of sidelining space program ing and establishing a new gauge of well- decisions and space issues. Australia uses being—such as a genuine progress indicator global communications satellite systems, or GPI—that takes into account socially and remote sensing imagery, space based meteoro- environmentally detrimental and beneficial logical forecasting and navigation guidance. effects which are not included in the present Space based activities are important to Aus- measures such as the GDP. Fourthly, we tralia in both monetary and utility terms. support reform of the taxation system to make Australia already spends more than $500 it fairer and more effective. Lastly, we sup- million annually on satellite systems, but port increasing public investment in infra- mostly overseas and with no guarantee that a structure to support our nation’s future devel- local industry will derive any benefit from or opment, job security and wealth creation, involvement in these programs. especially in research infrastructure to ensure This legislation is a step in the right direc- universities and research institutions have tion to get the Australian industry involved. state-of-the-art equipment. These measures It is absolutely essential that Australia devel- will directly affect the ability of Australian op a vibrant and growing manufacturing and science and technology to prosper in the services sector to provide the high skilled, future. As for space, the Democrats support high value jobs for the future. This requires a proactive government legislative scheme the government to provide the strategic that sets out the framework for regulating the direction necessary to develop the local industry. This bill creates some of that frame- industry. Part of this process is the need to work. develop a strategic plan for industry sectors. I am taken by Douglas Adams’s descrip- This should be an integrated approach to tion: science and technology, recognising, of course, the importance of education, research Space is big. Really big. You just won’t believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean and development support and initiatives, you may think it is a long way down the road to intellectual property protections, venture and the chemist, but that’s just peanuts to space. seed capital, the encouragement of innovation and creativity, a government purchasing And here we have a bill that proposes to policy, a comprehensive industry policy and regulate space—all space. This is a substantial initiatives, including taxation, in the short, challenge and must be based on some fairly medium and long term, as well as a social significant ground rules. This sentiment is set assessment of technology and the inclusion of out in a number of international conventions. innovation in the economic analysis and For example, the agreement governing the budget planning undertaken by government. activities of states on the moon and other celestial bodies: To achieve these goals, the Democrats have plans to integrate the place of education, . . . is determined to promote on the basis of research and development and innovation into equality and the further development of co-oper- the economic agenda. The Democrats support, ation among States in the exploration and use of the moon and other celestial bodies. firstly, economic independence for Australia where we as a nation earn more, save more The treaty on principles governing the activi- and invest smarter, and in particular support ties of states in the exploration and use of 602 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 outer space, including the moon and other eventually come back to earth. This is signifi- celestial bodies, is: cant as the lifetime of some of these materials . . . recognising the common interest of all mankind spans many generations, so we need to look in the progress of the exploration and use of outer to the very long term when we are talking space for peaceful purposes. about regulation of space. For example, the I acknowledge that that was ‘humankind’. United States has used radioisotope thermo- electric generators, or RTGs, for earth obser- Senator Schacht—We won’t report you to vations in orbits generally greater than 700 the thought police to make sure you are kilometres. RTGs generally use plutonium politically correct all the time. 238 as a fuel source because of its high heat Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Thank you, to mass ratio and relatively long half-life of Senator Schacht, but I am sure you support 87.7 years. The natural orbit decay of these language that is not gender specific. satellites is several hundred years, when they Significantly, these conventions identify will re-enter the atmosphere and, as a result equality, the common interests of humanity of friction in the air, burn up. This will, in and the peaceful use of space. These are most instances, turn the satellite into dust that worthy ideals and our legislation must pro- will then be spread around by the wind and mote and reflect these ideals and goals. In weather. most instances this bill is consistent with Both the United States and the former these ideals and the Democrats welcome this. Soviet Union launched vehicles into space However, there are some issues I would like with RTGs as well as nuclear reactors using to address broadly. enriched uranium 235. We know that the US Firstly, I am concerned about radioactive vehicles, which have re-entered the atmos- and other toxic and dangerous substances in phere, had RTGs that were encased so as to space. Last year, as some members of the survive re-entry. All reports suggest that this Senate may recall, the Cassini space probe was a successful design strategy, although I was launched from Cape Canaveral to hurtle will comment more on that later. In contrast, around the earth with 33 kilograms of plutoni- the former Soviet Union designed their fuel um. I, together with a lot of other people, was sources to vaporise on re-entry. concerned about the potential for an accident. The consequences of radioactive material I understand that the risk of accident as the spreading around the globe are frightening. probe swung past earth on the way to Saturn The most important point to make here—and was very low—people suggested infinitesimal- I will leave the details for another time—is ly low—but the consequences of an accident that there is no safe dose of radioactivity, would have seen an estimated five billion because the harmful effects of low dose people subjected to radioactive plutonium. radioactivity over generations cannot be The issue here is that the risks may be very presently determined and one ‘hit’ is enough low—and scientists are very good at calculat- to cause cell damage that may lead to cancers. ing risks, I acknowledge that—but it is the This means it is not acceptable to send radio- broader community that should decide wheth- active material into space unless we have er or not that risk is worth taking. determined the risk and made a decision that I appreciate that the role of radioactive and it is a risk worth taking. Just because it is a toxic materials in earth orbits is likely to be low risk—and I say this to the smiling minimal. However, this bill deals with all minister—does not necessarily mean it is a space, and I am concerned about any radioac- risk worth taking. tive or toxic material in all space. The life- The next issue of concern to me is the span of Cassini’s 33 kilograms of plutonium increasing amount of what is broadly referred is a long time and we should be cautious to as space debris. I would like to expand on about spreading this stuff around. this to talk about objects in space as being Of more immediate concern to earthbound useful objects and as being debris. Whether life is that materials sent into earth’s orbit do you have the useful ones or the debris, it is Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 603 all out there. Australia accounts for some 15 history but by the previous government. I payloads and debris objects. think that science issues are intimately linked Senator Minchin interjecting— with a range of portfolio areas like industry, training, education, research and information Senator STOTT DESPOJA—I would very technologies—all these areas of the future much like to hear the minister expand on his which we should be considering as invest- thoughts not only of space regulation but also ments for future prosperity, be it economic as about Australia’s 15 payloads and space well as contributing to a society where we are debris. The way this number is calculated is more enlightened. quite contentious. It should be seen as a relative number compared to the thousands of I think that science issues are not given the objects attributed to the United States, the precedence that they often deserve in this former Soviet Union and the European Space place. It has been quite exciting to see a space Agency. bill on the Notice Paper for debate. I hope, Minister, that you will ensure that there are This also means that Australia’s contribu- many more opportunities for discussion in this tion to space objects is a contribution to a place about the crucial areas of science and fairly crowded space. It is a fairly crowded technology. environment. The United States Space Com- Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) mand reports some 26,000 human-made (12.25 p.m.)—I rise on behalf of the opposi- objects in orbit which have been detected, tion to support this Space Activities Bill 1998 tracked and catalogued. This number includes and do so with some pleasure as a former around 8½ thousand earth satellites. The rest minister responsible for space activities from are used rocket bodies, dead payloads and 1993 to 1996. It is a pleasure to see at long operational debris, which includes optic last a commercial development in space covers, attachment hardware and other bits related activity taking place in Australia. and pieces which fall off vehicles. I remember when I was the minister, when Interestingly, only about six per cent of the we were talking to the Kistler Corporation 8½ thousand satellites are functioning. This and others who may have been interested in does not include objects that are less than 10 using Australia as a launch site, that it was centimetres in size in low earth orbit and up pointed out to me by the officers in the then to one metre in geostationary orbits. This may Department of Industry, Science and Tech- amount to tens of thousands of objects. This nology that this bill would be needed to is of significant concern, as these objects are provide a regulatory regime for commercial likely to cause accidents and unexpected interest in space. I think I said I could accept behaviour of space objects. that and I think at the time, informally, the I have more to say about the specific department started to prepare what is now this purposes of this bill. My office received bill, anticipating that we would be success- answers to questions about this bill quite late ful—after many trials and tribulations—in last night. Perhaps the minister will be happy convincing some commercial organisation to to outline his responses to some of the con- use Australia as a launch site. cerns that were raised between our offices. I As a South Australian, I was particularly will be happy to address some of my concerns interested in getting Woomera reactivated in relation to regulation versus self-regulation because, in two years time with the closing of during the committee stage of this bill. Nurrungar, Woomera will be basically wound For the record, I do congratulate the new down to being a care and maintenance oper- minister on his responsibilities, and I hope ation of what 30 years ago was I think the that he will bring vigour, a bit of passion as third or fourth biggest town in South Austral- well as intellect to the debate not only about ia. Woomera will be almost a ghost town of space but about science issues generally. I only a few hundred people on a care and suggest that science is an area that has been maintenance basis for the Australian defence sidelined by this parliament not just in recent forces. In view of the taxpayers’ contribution 604 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 to build and establish Woomera over 50-odd the gantry that shifts the rockets to assemble years, it would be very sad—not only for the rockets; they had built all the ancillary South Australia but for Australia—to have equipment. Woomera wind down and allow it and a lot When I was space minister, it was most of facilities to basically disappear. distressing for me to find that, in the late I did visit Woomera on a number of occa- 1980s, one of these sites had been used by the sions as minister to look at what was already SAS for target practice, to test gunfire power there in space related activity. I say to Senator and to conduct explosives tests. They blew Minchin—a fellow South Australian, as well the roof off the underground control bunker as the minister—that it is instructive to go to with explosive devices as an experiment. That Woomera and to go out to the various places concrete structure, which is equivalent to 10- where rockets used to be launched, as part of storeys high, is pockmarked with every type a military program by the British government of light to middle level armament. There are in particular, in the fifties and the sixties. I shell holes all over it. All the concrete obser- am sure he, like me, would be staggered to vation posts built around the edge of the site see the investment that was made and the from which the observers watched rockets range of launch facilities that were built in take off have shell marks all over them. that area, spread over many hundreds of I took the matter up with my colleague the square kilometres of Woomera and not just Minister for Defence so as to stop the SAS, near the town. In fact, you have to drive 30 or any other Defence operation, continuing to kilometres out in different directions to find blow up these assets because, in that period, some of them. In 1994 the command head- we had invited a delegation from various quarters for launching rockets of a large Russian rocket making companies to visit. nature, including the former ELDO rocket, They said that the shell of the site which had was still in operational form. It had been not been blown up could be used, with very maintained all those years waiting for the next cheap modification, to launch modified proton rocket to be launched. Much of the equipment rockets. I think we got agreement that they and the computers were outdated, but some would no longer use the ELDO concrete site had been upgraded. There was a care and for target practice and that the SAS would no maintenance operation. It was a two-storey longer use it to test explosive devices. building—more than a blockhouse arrange- ment—and it could be activated at very small All over Woomera there are sites for extra cost. launching very small rockets up to the size of the ELDO. The major advantage of Woomera It was also salutary to go and see at the is that it is a declared area for defence pur- edge of Island Lagoon the two sites the poses, and it covers many thousands of square ELDO operation built in the late sixties to kilometres. It would be nice if it was closer launch the European rockets before they were to the Equator because we could launch shifted for political reasons to French Guiana. equatorial rockets. Commercially, it is cheaper We now find that that site in French Guiana the closer you get to the Equator. But, for a is the most successful commercial rocket north-south polar orbit, Woomera is very well launching site in the world, regularly launch- placed to launch rockets with low earth ing satellites every few weeks. That was a orbiting satellites for communication pur- political decision the French forced on the poses. I think that is what the Kistler organi- ELDO operation under the wonders of Gener- sation is looking at. al de Gaulle and we lost. I think I can mention now for the benefit of But, before it shifted, tens of millions of the minister that the Russians told us it is dollars were spent to build two major rocket possible to assemble and fire these rockets launching facilities on the edge of the escarp- from Australia for as little as $10 million a ment at the lagoon. One of them was used for firing, which is extremely cheap. The Rus- static firings of the ELDO rocket and the sians provided drawings. We brought a other was never used at all. They had built Russian delegation to Australia and they were Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 605 amazed at what we had at Woomera but also, they were always leveraging it to make when we took them through the submarine commercial advantage for their nations. We corporation engineering works at Pooraka— should not be naive enough to believe we will not at Osborne—they said the equipment the get any advantage without leveraging our submarine corporation had at those engineer- geographical and geopolitical position in the ing works was capable of being used for world. Australia is very well placed to be a assembling rockets. The equipment and the major launch site, but it will need a commit- technology was available then. ment. In the early 1990s Transfield was interested I have to say that this bill is an excellent in putting together a consortium to launch start. I suggest, Minister, that there will be rockets from Australia. As John White, the some issues debated in committee and some former head of Transfield, said, making and amendments may be moved. I have no doubt launching a rocket from Australia is a lot less that, within two or three years, you will be complicated than building an Anzac frigate in back here to amend this bill to expand the Williamstown. It is not that difficult. We used regulatory regime and, I would hope, to put the old saying that you must be a rocket in place a more proactive industry policy to scientist. But this is not rocket science. By provide value adding space related activities using that phrase we made rocket science from Australia—and, I have to say, from sound a lot more complicated and expensive South Australia in particular. I think the than it now is. Kistler beginning is an excellent one. I say to the minister that I ran into trouble Minister, I know that you inherited this when trying to convince Treasury and Finance portfolio and that decisions were taken in the to make money available to seed fund and last three years about the funding of space initiate space related activities in Australia. I activities. I have to say that, although I was think my colleagues in the Treasury and not successful in growing the space budget, Defence bureaucracies believed I was trying I was able to hang on and maintain in it at to build Cape Canaveral at Woomera. All I least a few million dollars. In the first term of was after was a few million dollars over five your government the decision to abolish the years to kick-start something that would be, Australian Space Office and the funding that in the end, a value added industry. went with it for some proactive research was As Senator Stott Despoja pointed out, in a mistake. In industry policy terms, it was Australia we probably import now about $1 about leveraging value added for Australia. I billion worth of services from space satellites. am pleased to see that at least you have put That goes on our current account deficit. If some money back to administer the regulatory we are serious about getting the current regime. But in the estimates committee to account deficit down, in the long run we will come in February, I will take that opportunity have to look at areas where we think we can to have more of a dialogue about developing reduce those import costs. One of those areas space related activities. is through space related activities. You will never get commercial development If we launch satellites, we can then leverage to the level of value adding the best jobs the service that goes on the satellite because unless the federal government of Australia is that can be provided to Australia at a cheaper seen worldwide as being genuinely interested price since we are actually launching it. I and willing to put some money up-front as have to say that Treasury and Finance did not seed money for R&D and some infrastructure accept that argument and did everything development. This legislation will be a good possible to say that that is not what the free message to start off with. I am not suggesting market is about, et cetera. that you need $50 million, $100 million or Let me tell you that space is not about the $500 million. You may need a few tens of free market. Everything in space is about a millions over five years to target where you controlled, fixed, rigged market. When I was need the development of space related activi- dealing with the Russians or the Americans, ties. If we are serious about creating high 606 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 quality jobs, reducing our current account about? One of the jet engines compresses gas, deficit and space related activities, this is the or oxygen, at high speed and at a high speed place where we can do it without a major cost it combusts and provides power. The leading to the Australian taxpayer. proponent of that technology over the last 10 Regarding the development of low earth years is from Queensland University. All they orbiting satellite networks for telecommunica- needed for that program was funding from tions, we have seen the advertisements on time to time of a few hundred thousand television that the Iridium network is now up dollars. They have the worldwide leadership and running. This is the start of what we in it. They need to test the equipment. They ought to be able to say to Iridium and to need to put up a test probe on a satellite with Motorola. Every year they are going to have a model to show that it actually works. to launch replacement low earth orbiting If we get into the league, we have the satellites. We should be able to say, whether control of the technology; we have the know- to Kistler or someone else, ‘We can launch ledge and the skill. We will not have to spend these from Australia on a regular basis at a hundreds of millions of dollars. Others will cheap price’. Bill Gates, under his program, come and say, ‘We want you to be the partner believes he can deliver the information because you have the skill. You have the superhighway by a network of 900 low earth intellectual property’. That is how I see an orbiting satellites. Nine hundred would mean effective, subtle, discreet program operating, that, every year, 40 or 50 would have to be because we have the intellectual knowledge replaced. Some will fall to earth, some will already in this country if we can put it to- hit each other and some will not work. So gether with a focused program. there has to be a replacement. Although I have not spoken much on this What we have to aim for, in my view, is bill, because I agree with it—and the opposi- getting the commercial operators to see that tion agrees with it—we see this as the very we can effectively launch these satellites. first small step of what some of us tried to do Once we get into that, we can then start in the early 1990s as the opportunities arose. leveraging back and asking, ‘What are we There are companies in Australia, given the going to do to build the satellite?’ We already right leadership, that will invest. There are have people in this country who have won overseas companies that will invest. The jobs contracts to provide parts to American satel- that will come, and the quality of those jobs, lites that are now operating in space, either will mean that we have a real advantage in militarily or for commercial reasons. In this this country, in our national interest as well very town of Canberra there are people who as in our commercial interest. have successfully made parts—major and Minister, I urge you to go and visit Woom- significant parts—for American satellites for era and have a look at the site. You will, like various commercial companies. That ought to me, be a little dismayed at what we have be built upon. That is why we need an indus- allowed to be destroyed. I ran across an try policy, an industry plan—not a plan to Indian space engineer who skited that, when give a free kick or for someone to grab $50 we wound down ELDO and so on, we sold million, put it into their pocket, disappear and all our best space equipment to India at give- then, after five years, say, ‘Thank you very away prices. They used it to build their own much. Give us another $50 million’. We need space equipment. They have their own rocket a dedicated plan to leverage the opportunities now, built on cheap equipment they bought we already have—the skill we already have. from Australia in the 1960s and 1970s when I read only last week in the Business Re- we gave away Woomera and the equipment view Weekly—and I draw this to the at peppercorn prices. minister’s attention—a story about the next The saga of space in Australia now is a generation of jetliners that will actually go very sorry saga of many lost opportunities. I through the edge of space, supersonic, to hope this bill, in a sense of bipartisanship, is London in two hours. What are they talking the beginning of an opportunity that we are Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 607 not going to lose—that we see it as the community based participation towards elite beginning of an opportunity and build upon programs, in an ever-diminishing pool of it. Therefore, I commend the bill to the funding, there is now an even greater need for Senate. I look forward to taking part in the government involvement in the promotion of committee stage, if there are further amend- participation. ments. Minister, I ask you whether at the Regrettably, the government has to date committee stage you can give any further ignored some of the critical recommendations indication of allocation of extra resources to contained in the report prepared during its the space program. I will take that up with period of government entitled Rethinking the you in the estimates committee as well. I look funding of community sporting and recrea- forward, as I say, to further debate in this tional facilities: a sporting chance. It has chamber about establishing a decent Austral- failed to act on some of the report’s critical ian space program. recommendations. Certainly, sport has Debate (on motion by Senator Minchin) changed. It is now big business and the adjourned. corporate dollar that largely shapes competi- tive sport. It is the sponsorship dollar that MATTERS OF PUBLIC INTEREST determines whether or not a sport survives. If The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT you want an example: here in the ACT our (Senator Murphy)—Order! It being 12.45 women’s cricket team had to clean out the p.m., we will now proceed to matters of amenities at Manuka Oval during the men’s public interest. one day game, so that they could raise enough money for an interstate visit. Without Community Sport and Recreation sponsorship or funding, the non-elite side of Senator LUNDY (Australian Capital sport suffers. Territory) (12.45 p.m.)—I rise today to talk Just look at how sports competitions are about the importance of community sport and declining in many regional areas because recreation and, in particular, what will happen transport and registration costs are becoming when the 2000 Olympics are over. prohibitive. Rural and regional communities The course this government is charting is are really doing it tough under the Howard based on providing for elite sport above all government. We have seen this across a else. They have shifted the balance such that whole range of policy areas. And the one grassroots sports and recreational activities are thing that many small towns have to alleviate being ignored in favour of medal winning the many stresses of life—sport—has become sports. We have seen cuts right across the a discretionary cost that fewer and fewer sporting budget in the last two coalition families can afford. budgets and inevitably, as that pool of fund- What happened to sport and recreation as ing diminishes, community and participatory simply a means of enjoyment and exercise? sports programs receive less and less re- What is the government doing to ensure that sources. Yes, the Olympics are important— participation is increased and that facilities are but so too is the local netball court, public available to anyone who wants to improve pool, athletics track and recreational fishing their health? day. If the government wants the low-down on Under this government, Australia’s reputa- the role sport plays in Australian life, they tion as an egalitarian society where everybody should take a careful look at the Confeder- gets ‘a fair go’ no longer applies. It no longer ation of Australian Sports study, the Econom- applies because this government cannot see ic Impact Study of Sport. The Confederation’s beyond a bandaid solution of short-term report highlights the tremendous contribution funding. There is no depth to their policy and the sports sector makes to Australian society. no strategy that has Australia’s future in In the 1995-96 financial year, the sports mind. Because sports funding is increasingly sector was worth almost $8 billion and sports being directed away from grassroots and related exports contributed over $430 million. 608 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

Australian households spend around $6 billion $800 million to the Australian economy. In each year on sport and recreation, meaning other words, if the government bothered to that sport brings in about the same economic invest in sport and recreation—rather than benefits as the car, clothing and electricity slashing away at the budget allocations and industry sectors. funding—then they might be surprised to find You would think that the government would that the rewards far outweigh the investment. recognise the economic benefits by supporting The benefits of increased participation are the sports industry. You would think that an tangible right across the board. A healthier industry that employs close to 100,000 peo- society means a healthier work force. And we ple, as well as engaging almost 850,000 know that there is a direct correlation between volunteers, would be deserving of a long-term increased health and fitness and increased commitment from the coalition. But their productivity and occupational health and record to date shows that this is not the case. safety standards. Conversely, people who are By the year 2000 to 2001, the Howard not fit—and less healthy—take more sick government will reduce its financial commit- days. They are less productive and have ment to sport by over $60 million. The greater occupational health problems. Howard government is happy to take almost So increased community participation in a billion dollars in taxation generated from sport and recreation creates greater income for the sports sector, but they will not provide governments and delivers tangible benefits in any real commitment beyond the Olympic terms of workplace productivity and safety. Games. So when the games are over and the Some of these equations represent a correla- big sponsorship dollars have moved on to tion of figures that is not currently taken into Athens, Australia is going to be left without account in the government’s assessments of adequate funding for elite and community where they should put resources. It is the sport programs and participation rates will blend of looking at these cross-portfolio areas drop even further. and their interrelationships that becomes so The government’s approach to sport is a critical in policy development in this area. short-term strategy—if you could call it a What the statistics do not tell us, however, strategy at all. It is bereft of any vision about is how many people are unable to participate. the important role sport and physical activity Statistics do not tell us about people excluded will play in our future. And, outside of some from participation because of structural and cheerleading about the Olympics, I have heard economic barriers that this government has nothing about addressing the fundamentals of done nothing about. They have not done physical fitness and recreational sport and the anything about increasing participation, role that that has in the quality of the lives of because this is part of the unglamorous side Australians. of sport. You will not find the Prime Minister The report of the Confederation of Austral- or the minister for sport addressing barriers ian Sport, which presents a snapshot of the faced by sections of the community who want nation’s health, acknowledges the importance nothing more than the chance to participate in of participation. Unfortunately, we are more some form of recreational activity. of a nation of sports watchers than sports You will not see them out there talking up participants. In 1995-96, just over 30 per cent Paralympic sport with the same gusto as non- of Australians participated in some form of Paralympic sport. The Australian Paralympic physical activity. That means that over 4½ Committee received just $1 million from the million Australians were involved in either a Olympic program—or just four per cent of playing or non-playing capacity—but it also sports funding in Australia. This pitiful means that nearly 70 per cent of adults were amount of money is hardly recognition for the not involved. One of the most important 42 gold medals, 37 silver medals and 27 statistics to emerge is that a five per cent bronze medals Australia won at the Atlanta increase in the participation rate in sport Paralympic Games. Yet, in many ways, it is would deliver a net economic benefit of over more important to fund programs for people Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 609 with disabilities, as their ability to participate underwrite international sporting events, but is often dependent on government provided this government have shown that they do not infrastructure. And the opportunity to partici- understand that by investing in people, by pate in those programs presents the first investing in grassroots sport and recreation, opportunity for them to just participate in they will get a far greater return than just the physical activity from a grassroots perspec- financial revenue. tive. There are too many barriers to participa- Aboriginal Communities tion—barriers such as lack of public transport to venues; lack of facilities for athletes with Yunkaporta, Mr Francis disabilities; inadequate lighting of grounds Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (12.56 and car parks, which is a real concern particu- p.m.)—During the last sitting of the Senate, larly for women and children; lack of change I spoke on the audit report on the health of rooms and toilets, especially wheelchair Aboriginal communities. I spoke about my access; lack of adequate child care; and lack concerns in this regard and particularly about of quality public facilities. the death of one Aboriginal woman. Today I So how do we redress the barriers that are want to speak a little more about that situa- preventing more Australians from pursuing a tion today and to commend the Courier-Mail healthier lifestyle? There obviously is not in Brisbane which, through the offices of one some magic formula that will automatically its journalists, Tony Koch, has been exposing make us a fit and healthy nation, but slashing some of the tragic circumstances which do funding and cutting critical government exist on Aboriginal communities in Queens- programs are certainly not the answer. What land. can be done is to look at those sections of Australia where participation is low and then I also want to speak about a great friend of to examine what resources and facilities are mine, Francis Yunkaporta, who died a few available. And what you will find is that, weeks ago on the Aurukun community and while some regions and urban centres are well whose funeral was attended by many people catered for, others compete for scarce re- from around this country, including Minister sources. Herron. I certainly commend him for that. It is amazing what a decent football field or Francis Yunkaporta was a very highly basketball court or soccer pitch with a club- respected Wik elder who died of cancer on house and change rooms can do for the Thursday 29 October without seeing justice in physical, mental and economic health of a his lifelong battle for his people to own and community. The government might be sur- manage their traditional land. His death prised to learn that the health and wellbeing follows that of many other Wik warriors, but of all Australians is what counts, not just that particularly people such as John Koowarta. It of certain sections favoured by this adminis- represents the loss of one of the most respect- tration. ed and trusted leaders of the Wik people. One of the reasons that we must enhance White missionaries took Francis and his and broaden the participation rate is that sport father from the family’s home at Cape Keer acts as a coalescing force. It binds people Weer to the Aurukun mission on the western together; it gives them a sense of purpose, a side of Cape York Peninsula when Francis sense of place and a sense of community. For was only six years old. His father was re- many residents of rural Australia, sport is one moved in chains. When Francis’ father of the few things that keeps their communities reached Aurukun and realised his children alive. The banks might be gone, the Internet were being taken from him, he protested and might be unaffordable, pay TV might never tangled physically with the superintendent, but arrive—but sport is always going to be there. he was chained up again and thrown onto a Governments understand this—or at least barge which took him back to Cape Keer they should. They understand it when they Weer. 610 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

Francis never saw his mother again. He did Uniting Church Synod over a number of years see his father, although they never discussed as he attended the synod and engaged in the the day the children were taken. In reference debates. The synod was, as you can imagine, to his father, Francis says in his autobiogra- divided along political lines—the idea that phy: politics does not enter religion is something He never talked about the day I was taken from that only someone who does not know any- him but I could tell he was crying inside when he thing about it would believe—on the question thought about it. of whether to agree to hand over administra- This was reported to John Camplin in 1993, tion of the Aurukun and Mornington Island who wrote an article about it then. missions to the state government. Francis went on from mission life to join Francis sat quietly in the synod while the Australian Army’s Light Horse Brigade, church leader after church leader argued the and then after the war worked as a stockman fate of his people. I remember that he walked on stations around Cape York for 15 years quietly to the podium and spoke for about before getting married in Aurukun. Francis five minutes in his traditional Wik language. was separated from his wife for a year when It was very powerful, because he then trans- he was sent to the penal settlement at Palm lated what he had said into English. I am Island for protesting when a white official at quoting from memory, but he said something Aurukun pointed a gun at one of his friends. like: ‘You have all been debating the future In 1968, Francis was elected Chairman of of my people as if you understand us, but I the Mission Council Board and embarked on wonder if you do. I am speaking now in your a 30-year career as a powerful leader of the language, but did you understand when I Wik people. During this time Francis became spoke to you in my language?’ It was a involved with the Presbyterian—now Unit- powerful moment. He then went on to talk ing—Church, which administered the Auru- about the struggle of the Wik people over the kun and Mornington Island mission stations. years and of his hope that the church would His first major battle came 10 years later in come to support them in their fight for self- 1978 when the then Joh Bjelke-Petersen determination in the coming years. Francis government instructed the church to quit Yunkaporta’s Christian faith was critical to Aurukun in order to allow Comalco to begin his fight for the Wik people. mining a massive bauxite deposit found on Wik land. I remember when the Aurukun people opened the Wik summit which was held in Francis was the main media spokesman Cairns in January just two years ago. Francis during the dispute that followed, which and other people from Aurukun opened involved former Prime Minister Malcolm proceedings with a special ceremony. They Fraser and federal Aboriginal Affairs minister planted a symbol of traditional Aboriginal law Ian Viner. It became not only a dispute and then they sang a hymn which contained between Aboriginal people and the state the words: We love the land, oh God, wherein government but also a dispute between the thine honour dwells. They explained that their Commonwealth government and the state Christian faith and their traditional law guar- government at the time. Francis also worked anteed for them that God resided in their within the church to win support for his traditional land and that that meant, from the people in this particular struggle. Francis did point of view of both their faith and their law, not, however, have the total support of all they had no choice but to protect and fight for church leaders, as he found out when he that land. This approach was typical of travelled to Brisbane to attend a special synod Francis Yunkaporta. Throughout his life, no to discuss management of Aboriginal reserves matter how often governments, churches, at Aurukun and Mornington Island. mining companies or whoever dished out poor At this time I was very much personally treatment to his people, he always maintained involved with him and with other leaders. I a quiet reserve and stated his case simply and remember the impact that he made on the with great dignity. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 611

Francis Yunkaporta was one of the most them, but I wonder what they will achieve. I gracious men I have ever known. He pos- guess this is the point of my speaking here sessed great leadership and wisdom. He gave today. his community stability and leadership There is community sympathy right now in throughout the turbulent sixties, seventies and Queensland. The state government has prom- eighties, and even into the 1990s. ised more dollars and an indigenous women’s He was among a contingent of Wik people task force to look at the problems—and that who travelled to Canberra for the third pas- is great. However, the Democrats think that sage of the Wik legislation through the Senate the problems are too complex to tie down to this year. He watched while Senator just the state government. I believe that there Harradine danced with some of his people. are many other people who are and ought to The tragedy is that Aboriginal elders like be involved. Certainly the community coun- Francis Yunkaporta are now deceased. The cils should be involved. Wik warriors before him who tried to get I remember many years ago going to the justice through the white system are dying then minister, Russell Hinze, with a request without seeing justice done. That causes me from the council of Aurukun at that time that great pain. they have the ability to pass by-laws making I visited Aurukun just a few weeks ago. I Aurukun a dry community. The minister at must say, having visited Aurukun over the the time was unable or unwilling to allow that last 20 years and having had close connec- to happen. The community councils have a tions with many of the people, that I was responsibility. The women in these communi- distressed to see the condition of the com- ties also need to have a voice, because it is munity and to read again some of the stor- they who are most affected by the violence ies—not only of that community but of other and the abuse of alcohol. It also comes down communities on Cape York—that have been to money being provided for proper refuges collected by Tony Koch and repeated in the for those women and children, and whether Brisbane Courier-Mail. The horror of the money is getting through to where it is situation at Aurukun and other Aboriginal needed. It comes down to looking at our communities has been highlighted through priorities. I realise that at this moment we are those reports; communities are racked by spending millions of dollars on an indigenous violence, alcohol abuse and despair. I com- arts festival for the Olympics when Aboriginal mend the Courier-Mail for having the courage women and children are cringing in fear of to tell those stories. I also commend the violent men in their communities in refuges previous Governor of Queensland, Leneen that are shot through with bullet holes. That Forde, who has taken up this particular cause is the reality. It comes down to providing and had some public meetings about it. She economic futures for remote indigenous intends to pursue the issue. She is a great communities. That is critical. woman and a great Queenslander. She was Francis Yunkaporta rose from a community also, I must say, a great governor. I commend racked by despair and violence and managed her for the initiative that she has taken. to be a voice of dignity and reason for his Those reports in the Courier-Mail are a sad people. But the elders are dying out and many chronicle of lives destroyed by solvable of the young people are in despair. If massive problems. Even more tragic are the reports in cultural and economic change is not wrought the last few days that public servants respon- in Aboriginal Australia, and if great leaders sible for the Cape York communities reported like Francis Yunkaporta do not come forward, this over 10 years ago and cried out for then I fear for the future. solutions. But action was not taken by gov- ernments of any colour. Women and children One Nation: Queensland State Election have been needlessly brutalised over these Senator HOGG (Queensland) (1.10 many years. I commend Tony Koch on his p.m.)—I rise today in this matter of public reports and the Courier-Mail for running interest debate to address the issue of the by- 612 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 election on 5 December in the state of We saw that outcome in the Queensland Queensland in the state seat of Mulgrave. The election in June 1998. The coalition failed seat is currently held by One Nation. That badly in failing to put One Nation last. They should not be the case, but it is. showed a complete lack of understanding of the political consequences of their decision The Nationals had the opportunity to place not to put One Nation last. What we saw was One Nation last on their preference ticket at political expediency above principle. In my the forthcoming by-election. Whilst it is estimation, the adoption of that position, optional preferential voting, the Nationals together with the accelerated pace of change chose not to place One Nation last but to by the Howard government over the last 2½ leave it to the voters to choose where to years, brought about the undoing of the allocate their preferences. Whilst this might coalition in Queensland. be something that can happen—and reason- ably so under normal circumstances—one There were harsh initiatives by the Howard would have hoped that a more responsible government—cuts to legal aid and removal of attitude would have been adopted by the free job services such as the CES, disastrous National Party in this by-election on 5 policies on aged care and a loss of interest in December. rural and regional areas. All this fuelled the One Nation fire and contributed to the prob- Mr Borbidge, the Leader of the National lems suffered by the National Party and its Party and the opposition, hates both Labor ultimate demise in Queensland. and One Nation, and therefore hates to give— The coalition in Queensland then went on Senator Woodley interjecting— to legitimise One Nation not only as a party but as a voice in the parliament of Queens- Senator HOGG—You could say that. He land. Of course, this then further legitimised refuses to put Labor ahead of One Nation. He that party in Australian politics. has left it up to the voters and to whatever Labor’s decision to put One Nation last in might happen on the day. This is politically that state election held in June this year saved irresponsible. It shows why the Nationals are nine coalition seats—nine seats throughout the in the trouble that they are in today, both in state of Queensland which would have been Queensland and nationally. lost if Labor had otherwise directed its prefer- One Nation raised its head to satisfy the ences went to the coalition because Labor put disenchanted voter out there, and they have One Nation last. Conversely, though, the had some success—no more so than in coalition’s decision to put One Nation ahead Queensland. None of this would have hap- of Labor caused One Nation to win eight pened in the first place in the state of Queens- seats. One Nation, of course, directed prefer- land if Mr Howard had accepted Mr ences to the coalition in 15 seats and saved at Beazley’s challenge and delivered a decisive least four National Party seats. blow early on in the piece to One Nation. If that series of events had not taken place, There is no doubt that, if the ALP challenge firstly, we would not have One Nation as a that was put out as early as June 1997 that force to be reckoned with in Queensland and One Nation should be placed last—and which Australian politics to the extent that they have was denied by the Prime Minister—had been to be reckoned with today. Secondly, we taken up, One Nation would never ever have would not be facing the prospect of One got a leg off the ground. That was the morally Nation being re-elected in the seat of Mul- appropriate action to take, rather than allow grave in the by-election on 5 December if One Nation to bubble along and rise to the firm action had been taken in the first place. prominence that they now have. Some may If Labor had not put principle before political argue that that prominence is on the wane, but expediency in Queensland, then the One I will come to that in a few moments. The Nation numbers in the state parliament in fact is that, by failing to address the issue Queensland could have been 20. In that case, early on, the Prime Minister failed badly. One Nation would have been larger than both Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 613 the National Party and the Liberal Party. got nine and the Independents got two. It was What a set of circumstances would have on that basis that Labor was able to form a unfolded then. Instead of Mr Borbidge and government with the assistance of one of the Mr Beattie vying for the right to form govern- Independents and, whilst it is not in govern- ment we would have seen the Governor ment in its own right, Labor still is the talking to Mr Feldman during that period of government in the state of Queensland. uncertainty. Of course, history now shows that The Nationals putting One Nation last will Mr Beattie was successful in forming a Labor not in any way alter the state of play in the government—and a good one at that. state of Queensland in the by-election on Whilst One Nation did not win a House of Saturday, 5 December. The result will not Representatives seat, it did win a Senate seat change who is in government. It would, in Queensland. It cannot be said that One therefore, have been a move showing real Nation is a spent force and that One Nation leadership and real courage for the National is on the wane. Whilst in the recent New- Party to have come out decisively and put castle election held last Saturday there was no One Nation last on the ballot paper, giving a Liberal or National Party candidate, One clear preference direction to the people of Nation did come second on the poll, well Queensland, showing that not only is their ahead of the Greens, who got nine per cent, rhetoric strong by having some of their and the Democrats, who got eight per cent. representatives against the One Nation cause They achieved 16 per cent of the primary vote but that, in fact, they also back it up by in that election held in the seat of Newcastle. putting One Nation last. Whilst one cannot read great things into this, The fact is they did not; they fell at the it certainly dispels the theory that they are on hurdle again. So what we are faced with in the wane. If they were not to be a force in the by-election in the state of Queensland on Australian politics, why didn’t the Greens or Saturday the 5th is not just getting One the Democrats perform significantly better? Nation elected for the first time but getting They did not. The fact remains that the One One Nation elected for the second time. I Nation candidate did poll nearly 17 per cent believe that the National Party should have of the primary vote with nearly 80 per cent of shown the courage of their convictions and the vote counted. should have stood up and been counted on I think it is a miscalculation to say that One this issue by placing One Nation last. They Nation is a spent force. Given the opportunity failed to do so. to deliver a telling blow to One Nation in the I have an ongoing concern that One Nation, forthcoming by-election in the state seat of with their flat earth policies, can in any way Mulgrave, the National Party have whimped gain any legitimacy in Australian politics. it, in my view. They had the opportunity to Whilst I disagree with most of the views of come out decisively by clearly putting One the people opposite and of some of the other Nation last but, by not putting One Nation people in this chamber, that does not mean last and by equivocating, the coalition have that they are the total anathema that the One left the door open for One Nation to succeed Nation views are. One would hope that, if for a second time in the electorate. That is a confronted by this again, the Nationals will frightening prospect indeed. Having succeeded clearly put One Nation last. once was bad enough, but to have a second bite of the cherry—or the apple—is unfor- Private Health Insurance: Rebate givable. The Nationals could be going down Senator ABETZ (Tasmania—Parliamentary the path of further cementing the legitimacy Secretary to the Minister for Defence) (1.23 given to One Nation by them on the previous p.m.)—In today’s matters of public interest occasion. debate, I will seek to highlight the benefits to For the record, in the Queensland election all Australians, and in particular to my fellow on the last occasion Labor got 44, the Nation- Tasmanians, that will flow from the als got 23, One Nation got 11, the Liberals government’s election commitment to provide 614 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 a 30 per cent rebate for those that insure for million per annum for the states to maintain their health needs. the status quo. The simple fact is that having Health and health care are important con- people in private health insurance, having cerns for many Australians; they want choice health insurance cover, takes the burden off and they want a fair system. In response to the public sector. By pursuing what could community concern, the government an- only be some ideological motivation in trying nounced its policy of a 30 per cent rebate on to frustrate the government’s policy, what health insurance premiums. The government they are in fact doing means that there will be was elected on that policy. Yet I understand a greater pressure on the public health system, that there are now elements within this cham- which is already moaning and groaning under ber who would seek to frustrate the imple- the weight of waiting lists. mentation of this sound social policy—indeed, It is not generally appreciated that while 91 people who were elected on the promise to per cent of funding for public hospitals comes the Australian people that they would hold the from all taxpayers, 94 per cent of private government accountable for the promises it hospital funding, which is about $3.5 billion, made. is self-funded: it comes from patient user You know the slogan ‘Keeping the bastards premium charges. In other words, those who honest’? Well, there are certain elements in are treated by the private hospital system pay this Senate that are deliberately seeking to twice for hospital services in Australia: ensure that the government cannot abide by compulsorily, as general taxpayers, for the its election promises, by abusing the power public system; and, by exercising freedom of they hold in this place to frustrate the wishes choice, by paying yet again by means of of the government. They seem to be hell-bent premium and user charges to be treated in a on frustrating the wishes of the Australian private hospital as against a public hospital. people and what is a very sound social policy. Those patients who take responsibility for Recently I received a well-documented sub- financing their own health care needs by mission from the Tasmanian Private Hospitals choosing to use the service of a private Association. It contained a wealth of infor- hospital directly forgo their Medicare entitle- mation. It ought to be compulsory reading for ments under the public health system. In real any senator but in particular for Tasmanian terms, this exercise of choice equates to a senators thinking of opposing this important private subsidy of Medicare of around $2.6 reform. billion per year which in fact—and this is Almost half of the private hospitals in this interesting—is more than double the proposed country are not-for-profit hospitals run by rebate put forward by the federal government, church and charitable organisations, or are and thus allows the public hospital system to charity based. They provide a welfare support cater for the more needy members of the role way beyond the point of discharge, which community. includes a significant range of social services, The private hospital system makes a very research and general preventative health significant contribution to Australia’s public education services. All of those would be at welfare and health system. Its hospitals risk if our policies are not adopted. treated 1.77 million people last year, which It should also be noted that most of the equates to 33 per cent of all admissions, and health insurance funds are not-for-profit directly employed in its 472 hospitals 41,918 organisations. Latest research indicates that full-time equivalent staff. If suppliers and every one per cent drop in membership of the contractors are added, private hospital services private health funds incurs an $83 million represent an aggregate employment sector of funding increase in commitment by state 100,000 Australians and their families. It is treasuries to the public hospital system. If the noteworthy to remind ourselves that health number of policy holders were to drop by two insurance is accessed by 700,000 Australians per cent per year in the next three years, the earning less than $20,000 per annum, so government would have to find another $500 private health insurance is hardly the play- Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 615 ground for the rich that the opposition is which are already high, and those who come seeking to portray it as. from Tasmania would be aware of the very The Liberal rebate would inject an addi- real difficulties being experienced by both the tional $8 million in disposable income into previous and current government in trying to each federal electorate which, on average, make ends meet in relation to the public contains 39,000 insured adults and children. hospital sector. Those federal members thinking of voting On top of that, Tasmanians suffer worse against this proposal should be giving serious health than the citizens of any other state or consideration to what they are going to tell territory and our demographic profile is the those 39,000 adults and children in their most vulnerable of all the states because we electorate as to why they do not want to assist have a pronounced ageing population which them. Also, they might like to tell the small will require increasing medical attention as business owners in their electorate why they the years go by and, quite frankly, Tasmania did not want that extra $8 million of dispos- of all the states is least capable of financially able income in the pockets of their electors. meeting the challenge. Tasmanians rely more The only reason that could motivate people on the private hospital system than any other would be an outdated ideological mind-set. state. The issue of assisting people to retain If the health insurance system were to or rejoin health insurance funds enjoys over- collapse, not only would these 39,000 people whelming support. in each electorate suffer but it would place an Some people have sought to use a perverted intolerable burden on the public health sys- sense of the term ‘social justice’ in this tem, with governments being forced to pro- debate, but let me just remind them that social vide an additional 25,000 beds in the public justice is not based on an outdated dogma, system, involving greater capital outlays and nor is it based on jealousy or a desire to cut a recurrent cost of an extra $3 billion per down tall poppies. True social justice seeks to year. look after all. When you have got a situation If that scenario is not bad enough, it is even where, as I have mentioned before, 700,000 worse for my home state of Tasmania. Tas- Australians are in private health insurance mania has a markedly higher private health who earn less than $20,000 per annum it coverage than the mainland states. In the June ought to make people think. 1998 quarter, 30.6 per cent of Australians had Senator Watson—They are not rich. private health insurance, with the Tasmanian rate being 33.5 per cent. Senator ABETZ—As Senator Watson quite rightly interjects, they are not rich. But what Senator Watson interjecting— is the Labor Party’s policy for those? It is Senator ABETZ—Senator John Watson simply to block our measure. That is all they has just interjected and made the very telling can do because, on the other side, they are point that in Tasmania, in fact, we have the unfortunately a policy-free zone. lowest rate of disposable income of any state, which, of course, confirms yet again the need Allow me to go through this question of for this rebate and blasts out of the water the social justice. Looked at in isolation, the mantra from the ALP and those that would rebate may appear inequitable because of the oppose this rebate that somehow health lack of a means test. However, when high insurance is the playground for the rich. In income earners drop their cover and compete fact, it is a need for those who have health for public hospital beds, the relative tax insurance. In the two years to June 1998, burden on low and middle income earners 19,000 Tasmanians have dropped out of increases and the access to public hospitals of private health cover, which unfortunately those who can never afford the private system constitutes 10.8 per cent of total membership. is impaired; and that is the social justice issue Such a transfer of patient responsibility from in this debate. the private to the public hospital sector will The context is, I suppose, that Medicare is inevitably result in increased waiting lists, not means tested. The rebate encourages the 616 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 better off to contribute to their own health Firstly, it is useful, by way of background, care costs, leaving the public system better to have a very brief overview of the issue in placed to provide health services to the needy. respect to section 44(i) of the constitution, That is social justice in anybody’s language. which provides that: This is an equitable outcome. Any person who- The $1.3 billion expended on the rebate (i) Is under any acknowledgment of allegiance, will produce more care in the longer run than obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is $1.3 billion spent in public hospitals because a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign individuals have shown time and time again power:... that they will make a contribution to their shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as own health care in return for choice of pro- a senator or a member of the House of Representa- vider and choice of institution. tives. The key to all this is to use the subsidy Section 44(i) was involved fairly recently, on judiciously so that the personal financial 25 November 1992, in a decision of the High contribution is a reasonable one. I still recall Court in a case that was known as Sykes v. in the previous government when a certain Cleary. This matter has been widely reported Prime Minister bragged about the fact that he on occasions since November 1992. In that did not have private health insurance. But case of Sykes v. Cleary, six of the seven take the tip: when he or his family were in judges of the High Court found Mr Cleary need of health care in a hospital, do you think incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a they were required to wait in the overcrowded member of parliament on the grounds that he waiting rooms? Of course not. They were had held an office of profit under the Crown allowed to pass through and get immediate under section 44(iv) of the constitution and, service. That is not social justice. That is not as a result, the by-election was void. Interest- fair, especially in circumstances when there ingly, Mr Cleary went on to be re-elected to was the capacity to pay for their own private parliament. The electors made a clear state- health insurance. ment about what they thought about this My plea is in particular to my fellow issue. Tasmanians to consider this issue very care- The same case involved consideration of fully and to my fellow senators from Tasman- section 44(i) of the constitution. A majority ia to consider this issue very carefully be- of five to two of the High Court found that cause, if this rebate proposal is lost, the two other candidates, Mr Kardamitsis and Mr greatest losers will be the people of Tasmania, Delacretaz, were ineligible under section 44(i) who have the highest rate of health insurance and, therefore, a recount could not be con- combined with the lowest income combined ducted. All seven judges found that section with the greatest health needs of this country. 44(i) required a person to take all reasonable I simply ask them: put away the silly ideo- steps to renounce their other citizenship. logical dogma or hang-up and look after the The majority of the court held that this people of Tasmania on this very important required use of the renunciation procedures of issue. the other country if there were such proced- ures. Where there were no such procedures, Public Office Holders: Dual Citizenship or where the other country refused renunci- Senator SHERRY (Tasmania) (1.38 ation, proof of requesting renunciation was p.m.)—The issue that I wish to make some sufficient. Because such procedures were comments on today concerns the matter of available in relation to the two countries of dual citizenship and eligibility for standing for which Mr Kardamitsis and Mr Delacretaz public office. The matter has been in the were citizens, they had not taken all reason- media once again, with some allegations able steps to renounce and were therefore being made against Senator-elect Heather Hill ineligible under section 44(i). Two judges from Queensland, who is scheduled to take dissented on the section 44(i) point and her position on 1 July next year. considered that Mr Kardamitsis and Mr Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 617

Delacretaz had taken all reasonable steps by relevant to determining when persons with making oaths of allegiance to Australia when dual Australian and British citizenship became they naturalised, which included a renunci- ineligible under section 44(i), which I referred ation of other allegiances together with their to earlier and which the High Court exam- long-term commitment to Australia. ined. It is fair to say that at the end of 1992 this What is interesting is that at the time of did cause some major concerns for members Federation, and until the enactment of the of parliament. I was one of them. I do not Australian Citizenship Act in 1948, there was recall the exact number, but there were cer- no such thing as an Australian citizen— tainly double figures of members of the Australians were British subjects, full stop. I House of Representatives and the Senate for do not intend to go into all of the legal detail whom there was an arguable case over wheth- but there have been a number of other acts of er they had failed to renounce the country of both the British and the Australian parlia- their home of birth. If there was a formal ments which are relevant to the issue of deter- procedure, even if they had Australia citizen- mining when a person with dual Australian ship, as a consequence of the High Court and British citizenship became ineligible. decision they were open to challenge—let us They are such acts as the British Nationality put it that way. I was one of those who, in a Act 1948, Citizenship Act 1969, Australian flurry of activity, dashed down to the British Citizenship Act 1973, the Royal Style and High Commission, sought out the details for Titles Act 1973, which uses the title ‘Queen renunciation of citizenship from Britain, paid of Australia’, the 1981 British Nationality Act the appropriate fee—which at that time was and the 1986 Australia Act. They are all $50, I think—and lodged renunciation forms. relevant with respect to this issue of dual There were quite a number of members of nationality. parliament at that time who had to go through One other point about the 1992 case Sykes that procedure. v. Cleary was that that was about office of In respect to myself, my father was an profit under the Crown. That was how the Australian who worked in England after the issue originally commenced, rather than on war. My mother was English. My father and this dual citizenship matter. my mother intended to come back to Australia I would like to turn now to the recent in 1955. My father returned to Australia when speculation concerning Senator-elect Heather my mother was pregnant with me. I had to Hill from Queensland. There are three aspects stay in England until I was born apparently. of this matter that have caused me particular You were not allowed to travel to Australia concern. Firstly, prima facie—and I stress, if a child was less than six months of age. I prima facie—on the facts available as pub- have to say, regrettably, that I was born in the lished in the media—and I think we have United Kingdom. My kicking and screaming always got to be cautious about facts pub- on the boat over here had nothing to do with lished in the media, particularly in this very my being sad about leaving the ‘motherland’. intricate legal area—it does appear that There were many members of this place who Senator-elect Hill has a problem if she failed were in that position—not just, of course, to renounce her British citizenship; if she through having been born in the United failed to fill out the form, have it registered Kingdom but through having being born in with the British High Commission and pay other countries. I took out Australian citizen- the fee. ship in 1972 or 1973, having absolutely no Given all the publicity at the time of the idea that I, in any way, had some sort of legal High Court ruling in 1992, and that there has connection with the English ‘motherland’. been subsequent publicity from time to time, It is a serious issue. As I said earlier, it has we have to wonder how a political party such been raised in connection with Senator-elect as One Nation which boasts of its profession- Hill. Since Federation, a number of Australian alism—it is certainly professionally controlled acts of parliament have been passed that are and organised, some would say manipulated, 618 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 by a ruling triumvirate—can be absolutely the Age on 24 November. Apparently, accord- incompetent in the matter of dual citizenship. ing to this report, if you want to renounce As I said, it is not as though it has been British citizenship you now have to pay a fee something that has been hidden; it has been of $800. It does fluctuate according to the a matter of extensive public debate. Certainly exchange rate between the pound and the in the case of my party, and I am sure in the dollar. As I recall, when I renounced in late case of the Liberal Party and the National 1992 I think I paid $50 and collected the Party, all efforts are made to ensure that when receipt. One of my Senate colleagues who people present for elections they are eligible renounced about 18 months to two years ago under the constitution. But, of course, in paid a fee of approximately $130. I was respect of Senator-elect Hill, someone has to staggered to see it now costs $800 to re- challenge her eligibility to sit in the Senate. nounce British citizenship. It will be interesting to see where that chal- It does seem extraordinary to me that, lenge comes from. through accident of birth, those of us who What I thought was particularly offensive were born in a particular country, in this case, were some of the comments made by Senator- the United Kingdom, but who are not particu- elect Hill. She has been publicly reported as larly wanting any legal connection with the alleging that her citizenship would not have United Kingdom—no reflection on the United been queried, ‘if I was Chinese or Kingdom—and who did not know that they Vietnamese’. Of course, whether it relates to had any legal connection with the United Chinese or Vietnamese or Greek or Italian or Kingdom are now faced with having to pay even, dare I say, Anglo-Saxon—people of $A800 to be rid of a ‘privilege’ they did not Anglo-Celtic descent—is not the issue. The want and, in many cases, did not know they issue is whether or not she holds dual citizen- had. I certainly do not believe that an $800 ship; that is the critical issue. I think it is very fee is appropriate for the administrative costs, regrettable that Senator-elect Hill should which are relatively minor. They must have attempt to off-load at least some of the re- imposed a surcharge when they upped the fee sponsibility for her possible error—and I say to $800. ‘possible’ error—with a comment about Chinese or Vietnamese and to imply that that They are the three aspects I raise. One is is an issue and an excuse. All that does, particularly serious, of course—the comment unfortunately, is feed off some of the racist by Senator-elect Hill in respect of the Chinese sentiment that exists in sections of our com- or Vietnamese. I think that is very unfortu- munity in Australia. I think that was an nate, feeding on the racist sentiments in appalling remark for Senator-elect Hill to Australia. Secondly, I think she should have make. known if she had a problem—and we can only look at the facts as presented in the It will be interesting to see if anyone in or media, and I am always cautious about that. associated with the National Party does take legal action. If they do, it will be no surprise Finally, I think it is an outrageously exorbi- that that will probably occur after next tant fee that the British government is now month’s Mulgrave by-election in Queensland. charging to renounce citizenship, particularly in circumstances where people do not know Senator Abetz—Why not the Labor Party? of or do not want any particular legal associa- Senator SHERRY—Senator Abetz says, tion with the United Kingdom. ‘Why not the Labor Party?’ I happen to have a view about what Senator-elect Hill can do Drug Abuse and Drug Related Crime and I would question, frankly, the practical Senator GIBBS (Queensland) (1.52 p.m.)— value of such a challenge in respect of Sena- I rise to speak on a matter that continues to tor-elect Hill. be of significant public interest. Australian The third matter of concern that I have drug laws are in dire need of reform. There is about this issue is, again, something that was no denying it. Most federal politicians have reported in the media. It was in an article in acknowledged this fact. But despite continued Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 619 community pressure, this government has escape the confines of reality. It is not enough consistently failed to provide any new solu- to simply take the drugs away from people. tions to the problems stemming from drug We have to offer them some hope to replace abuse and drug related crime. them with. Counselling and employment services would be a good start. The provision The failure of the government’s current of additional support services for participants Tough on Drugs approach was highlighted in current treatment programs may therefore again at the First Annual Conference on be a means of reducing relapse rates and Drugs and Young People in Melbourne. enhancing the success of existing treatment Conference delegates condemned the notion strategies. of zero tolerance, asserting that the emphasis of anti-drugs strategy should be placed on It has been suggested by some within the treatment rather than punishment. People treatment field that outpatient services may working within the treatment field have been provide a viable means of providing strong saying this for years but still the Howard after-care support. The provision of outpatient government has continued to provide more services would make the range of treatment punitive punishments for drug related crime. options already available more flexible and This government has consistently been more could conceivably be incorporated in any concerned with promoting an image of being future treatment strategies involving new tough on drugs than it has been with address- pharmacotherapies. The development of more ing the needs and concerns of the Australian flexible treatment services would enable easier people. This complete disregard and apathy access to therapy for many users, particularly for drug users and their families has led to a those whose time is constrained by work or situation where even established treatment family commitments. It is often difficult for services are struggling to survive, with dwin- female users with young children to gain dling resources and funding. Not only has the access to counselling services, particularly government failed to introduce new treatment when they need to find child-care facilities at options for Australian drug users, it has failed the same time. in its duty of care to those participating in The provision of additional support ser- existing services. vices, outpatient counselling services in It is the woeful inadequacy of counselling particular, may be a means of improving the and other support services that I seek to flexibility and long-term viability of existing highlight today. New pharmacotherapies have treatment options. It would also represent a dominated recent debate in Australia about more practical and humane approach to alternative treatment options for heroin users dealing with Australia’s burgeoning problem in particular. There is growing concern, of drug use and drug related crime. We need however, among people from within the to start looking at drug users as people. Until treatment field that the lack of support ser- the government actually starts providing vices provided for existing treatment options treatment options that address their needs in has contributed to low retention and high a more practical fashion, we cannot expect relapse rates among participants. Many treat- any improvements. ment workers emphasise the need for ongoing We need to look at why increasing amounts support to be provided in order to address a of Australians are turning to illicit drugs user’s psychological addiction and assist in rather than dishing out arbitrary punishments. social reintegration. Longer-term support ser- Many from within the treatment field recog- vices such as counselling and employment nise a growing need for specific counselling assistance help people to come to terms with services to address underlying problems that the practicalities of life while they struggle to are triggering drug use in many heroin users. overcome their addiction. Such services It has been estimated that anywhere between provide a means of finding solutions to the 30 to 70 per cent of people in treatment for problems that have often initiated drug abuse heroin dependence have unresolved issues of in the first place. Often drugs are used to abuse, contributing to their psychological and 620 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 physical addiction to heroin. Hence incorpo- urer yesterday, that is, ‘fees for opening and rating a wider range of counselling services keeping bank accounts, cheque accounts and within treatment programs could enhance the the like’, or does it fall within the category performance of existing treatment options. which you referred to on Monday of a ‘spe- The development and introduction of cific fee for service’, in which case it would specific counselling services could improve be subject to the full GST? the accessibility of treatment options for a Senator KEMP—Senator Conroy referred significant number of Australian heroin users. to a question that was answered fully and Mr John Bynon, who recently helped to fulsomely by the Treasurer yesterday. The establish Australia’s first program for abused Treasurer put out a press statement on this male heroin users, is a strong advocate of issue, which I will table after question time. such methods. He emphasises that it is often Senator CONROY—Madam President, I pointless to treat a person’s drug addiction if ask a supplementary question. Can the Assist- that person initially turned to drugs to escape ant Treasurer explain precisely what he means anguish resulting from other forms of abuse. by ‘specific fee for service’? Would EFTPOS Once again, we must seek to understand the fees fall within this category and therefore be problem before we can begin to address it. slugged with a GST? The increasing incidence of drug use among Senator KEMP—Madam President, I do young Australians is of particular concern to not think that is a supplementary question. the community. The youth of today are this Senator Conroy would be well advised to wait country’s future and yet each year more and for the press release which I will be tabling more of our young ones are lost to drugs. It after question time. That will make the issue is about time this government thought about absolutely crystal clear. developing some kind of proactive strategy to combat this trend rather than initiating further DISTINGUISHED VISITORS knee-jerk reactions in the arena of criminal The PRESIDENT—Order! I draw the law. Australians do not want to make their attention of honourable senators to the pres- children criminals and outlaws; they want to ence in the President’s gallery of former offer them help. Many youth workers believe Senator Michael Tate, a distinguished senator there is a rapidly growing need to establish from Tasmania. I welcome you back to the more youth-specific heroin treatment options. national capital and hope that your visit here With the incidence of heroin use amongst is very pleasant indeed. young people continuing to rise in Australia, there is an urgent need to provide new treat- Honourable senators—Hear, hear! ment options and support services relevant QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE and appropriate for catering to their specific needs. Understandably enough, treatment Economy: Government Policy facilities dealing with patients who— Senator MacGIBBON—My question is ad- (Time expired) dressed to Leader of the Government in the Senate, Senator Hill. The government went to The PRESIDENT—Order! The time for the last election with a comprehensive set of this discussion has concluded. policies to strengthen the economy, to raise QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE living standards, to look after families and to nurture small business. My question is: how Goods and Services Tax: Banking important is it that these policies are imple- Services mented and what planning has been done to Senator CONROY—My question is ad- bring them about? dressed to Senator Kemp, the Assistant Senator HILL—I thank the honourable Treasurer. Does the Commonwealth Bank’s senator for his important question. He does $2 over the counter service fee fall within the raise the contrast between a government that category of services referred to by the Treas- has a clear plan, a comprehensive program Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 621 and soundly based policies, and a Labor Party prepared to recognise that one of the reasons opposition that is devoid of ideas, devoid of it lost the last election was that it took to the intellectual contribution and has nothing at all Australian people no viable alternative, then to offer the Australian people. The program it has taken a small step in the right direction. that we went to the people with at the last Now it needs three years to work up an election, and which we seek to implement, alternative set of policies so that for once builds upon our first term in office—a term people of Australia will not be able to say during which we were able to offer the Aus- that Labor stands for nothing. The time is tralian people lower interest rates, low infla- now there for the Labor Party. They have tion, reduced unemployment, massive busi- another three years in opposition to think ness investment and all the other benefits that about what they stand for, to try to identify can then flow from that to the betterment of their place in the future of this country and to all Australians. do the hard work that is necessary in relation In our second term, we take to the Austral- to building policies. Then maybe, just maybe, ian people a comprehensive taxation reform they will come up with something worth in order that Australian business can be as while for the next election. efficient as its competitors, continuing work- Taxation Reform: Industry place reform in order to give young people in particular better job opportunities, a stronger Senator FAULKNER—My question is health system with our reforms to support in directed to Senator Kemp, the Assistant particular the private health sector to build Treasurer. Does the minister recall the upon the record sums that we are investing in Minister for Industry, Science and Resources the public health sector in this country, a saying yesterday in the Senate, ‘Under our leadership role for APEC built on the sub- new tax system Australian industry is going stance of that strong domestic economy— to save $10 billion a year in costs’? Is this true? Is the government no longer claiming Senator Cook—You sold us out of APEC. that the reductions in costs that will flow to You know that! industry will be passed on to consumers? Is The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Cook, the government not double counting by shouting in that fashion is totally out of order. claiming that that $10 billion in savings will Senator HILL—Improvements in regional go to industry and at the same time relying on services, strong industry policies with an those savings to justify its impossibly low emphasis on information technology and inflation estimate of 1.9 per cent? information industries, a world-class education Senator KEMP—If the minister referred to system, protection for the Australian environ- cost savings in the order of $10 billion for ment through another $250 million contribu- Australian industry, that is the correct figure tion, assistance for families, an agenda for as far as I am aware. But I will check that if reconciliation and the referendum for the you wish. All these costs are set out in some Australian people on a republic. This compre- detail in an excellent book. hensive plan was clearly put to the Australian people. It was supported by the community Senator Conroy—Have you found the and is now to be implemented by this govern- press release? ment. Senator KEMP—Yes, I have found the What does the opposition offer instead? press release, Senator Conroy, but I do not Obstructionism, no ideas, no policies, no know what that has got to do with the ques- nothing. What did Mr Beazley say? He tion I am answering at the moment. One of rejected the so-called ‘new way’. He wanted the big features of our tax package which I a second way. That has now gone by the by. think was of great appeal to Australian indus- Mr Latham comes into the party room yester- try was the fact that we were able to take day and says ‘It’s not good enough,’ so Mr very substantial costs off industry. The GST Beazley says ‘It’s time for intellectual input.’ is an extremely effective way of achieving If this is the first sign that the Labor Party is that particular goal. Also, Senator Faulkner, 622 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 there are very substantial cost savings in minister advise the Senate how the Howard relation to exports. government’s training policies have helped Senator Cook—Wrong! Wrong! young Australians? Will the minister indicate the impact that alternative approaches could Senator KEMP—The exporters think it is. have on the number of young people in The exporters are very supportive of our tax training? reform package. Senator Cook is not suppor- tive of our tax reform package, but the ex- Senator ELLISON—This is a very good porters are. In relation to this issue, Senator, question indeed from Senator Watson, be- I would prefer to support the exporters rather cause it touches on a very important issue for than you. They supported our tax package young Australians. What we are talking about heaps, and they did not support your tax here is training the next generation of young package. Australians to go forward and obtain jobs and carve out a future for themselves. I can say Senator Faulkner, you then referred to the that, as the result of an agreement with the inflationary impact of 1.9 per cent. I think states and territories via the Australian Na- that figure has been very carefully worked out tional Training Authority agreement, some and very carefully modelled. I do not think 55,000 extra places have now been provided anything that the Labor Party has been able through efficiencies. to produce has knocked the calculations on which that figure is based. I confirm that the Senator Carr interjecting— package does show that there will be an Senator ELLISON—No doubt Senator inflationary rise of 1.9 per cent overall. Carr would be very interested in this indeed. Senator FAULKNER—Madam President, It is predicted that these places will expand to I ask a supplementary question. Can the 70,000 by the end of 1999. That only spells Assistant Treasurer clarify how much of the good news for young Australians. much trumpeted $10 billion in savings from Senator Carr—And no extra money from the new tax system the government expects the government. No money from the govern- will be pocketed by industry and how much, ment—someone else always has to pay. if any, will flow to consumers in lower prices? Senator ELLISON—In relation to the funding, can I tell Senator Carr, Madam Senator KEMP—From memory, the President, that this government is committed questions that Senator Faulkner raised are in to $1.4 billion in the year 1998-99 in relation fact covered in the extensive tables in this to vocational education and training. This is book which I have referred to before. Again, an increase of almost $200 million over Senator, I urge you to look through that book. Labor’s last year. There is also funding of It lists the cost savings by sector and it has $295 million in relation to new apprentice- other tables which deal with— ships. That will accommodate some 120,000 Senator Faulkner—You are kidding! Try new apprenticeship positions. That is out- answering the question. standing news for young Australians and also Senator KEMP—That is the answer to the for older Australians who want to engage in question. training or upskilling. At the moment, there are over 190,000 Youth Training people in training. That is a record for this Senator WATSON—My question is country. Indeed, it is an indicator that this directed to Senator Ellison, the Minister government is travelling in the right direction representing the Minister for Education, in relation to its policies on vocational educa- Training and Youth Affairs. Will the minister tion and training. Vocational education and advise the Senate of the coalition’s strong training in Australian schools has been a commitment to giving young people the skills subject close to my heart. We have provided they need to compete in today’s competitive $200 million over four years to expand work environment? In particular, will the vocational education and training opportuni- Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 623 ties in schools. Added to that, we have pro- Senator WATSON—Madam President, I vided year 11 and 12 students with the oppor- ask a supplementary question. Minister, that tunity to participate in vocational education is indeed an encouraging response, and con- courses. gratulations on your part in that achievement. Could you give us further information in What is significant is that in 1995 some relation to this in particular and further 26,000 students were engaged in such courses indicate the impact the alternative approaches but by 1998 that had increased dramatically could have on the number of young people in to 114,000 students. What we have here is a training compared with the policy you have recognition of those 70 per cent of students just enunciated? who do not go on to university; those 70 per cent of students who Labor neglected when it Senator ELLISON—One can look at the was in power. alternative methods, especially those that I mentioned, which the opposition engaged in We are looking at providing those 70 per when it was in power, such as merry-go- cent of Australian students with an opportuni- round training programs which went nowhere ty to do things other than go to university. and red tape—if you wanted to become an This will provide new opportunities for them. apprentice or trainee you could go to a multi- Added to that, we are providing part-time tude of government agencies and organisa- training opportunities in courses which are tions and still be none the wiser. accredited. Some 1,400 students across Aus- Senator George Campbell—You told us tralia have embarked upon this. This provides the Job Network was wonderful. that those students can not only improve their literacy and numeracy skills, but they can also Senator ELLISON—What we have intro- engage in an accredited course so that when duced, Senator Campbell, is the new appren- they graduate from school there is a seamless ticeship system and some 200 new apprentice- transition from school to work and training, ship sites which not only provide employers and they have somewhere to go when they with information in relation to new appren- leave. That is a lot more than was offered to ticeships but also, most importantly, provide young Australians in the past under the it for those people who want to look into opposition when it was in government. opportunities for themselves in relation to apprenticeships and traineeships. We have cut Senator Chris Evans—And they go to away the red tape. We have provided the Centrelink, which isn’t staffed any more. opportunities for Australians to make inquiries Senator ELLISON—We have also got the and we have made it simple. We have in- Jobs Pathway program, which I am sure creased the opportunity for employers to take Senator Evans would be very interested in. on training. The International Monetary Fund has indicated that Australia is heading in the Opposition senators—Sit down! right direction in building more opportunities for training and jobs. (Time expired) Senator ELLISON—I hear the opposition say, ‘Sit down.’ That is how much regard it Goods and Services Tax: Fringe Benefits has for the Jobs Pathway for young Austral- Senator CROSSIN—My question is direct- ians. This is a very important subject, one ed to the Assistant Treasurer. What will be which the opposition does not care about. We the FBT impact under the GST regime for an are worried about making sure that there are employer who pays, or reimburses employees, pathways for young Australians to go from for GST-free activities such as health, educa- school to work. From the interjections on the tion or child care? other side, it is obvious they do not give a hoot. They know they did nothing when they Senator KEMP—I will take that question were in power and what we are providing is on notice, look at the detail and provide you over $13 million. Some 83 projects have been with an answer. funded to provide such pathways. (Time Senator CROSSIN—Madam President, I expired) ask a supplementary question. I was hoping 624 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 it would follow from the answer to the first If the honourable member wants a technical one. Will there be a different FBT impact explanation of the differences— under the GST regime for an employer who referring to a technical taxation question— reimburses employees— Question Time is not the time or the place to give Honourable senators interjecting— it. The PRESIDENT—Order! It is important That is a principle which I think is a most that people are able to hear what is being said appropriate one, and I intend to follow it. in the chamber. The PRESIDENT—Senator Kemp, that is Senator Hill—Madam President, I take a not relevant to the current point of order. The point of order. Senator Crossin is obviously question we are dealing with is whether or not starting a second question. It is not something Senator Crossin’s supplementary question is that has arisen out of the answer to the first supplementary. It could not be supplementary question. It is therefore not a supplementary to the answer, but the status of such questions question in terms of the standing orders and has been considered previously by the Proced- she should not be permitted to ask it. ure Committee and it has become the practice that questions can be supplementary to the Senator Conroy—Then make your minister question. The first words she uttered—which answer the question. were all I heard—indicated that it was at least The PRESIDENT—Senator Conroy! Cease the same topic as previously. I would need to behaving like that. hear the whole of the question to know whether it was supplementary to the question. Senator Faulkner—On the point of order, Madam President, we have a situation where Senator Faulkner—In other words, you we have an incredibly incompetent minister can’t protect him. in Senator Kemp— The PRESIDENT—Senator Faulkner, it is The PRESIDENT—That is not a point of out of order to behave in that fashion. order. Senator CROSSIN—Will there be a Senator Faulkner—I am speaking to the different FBT impact under the GST regime point of order. He has only two methods of for an employer who reimburses employees answering a question, either waffling or for a GST input-taxed activity, such as an saying he will take the question on notice. employee who pays, or receives reimburse- ment for the payment of, private rent? The PRESIDENT—That is not speaking to the point of order. Senator Hill—Not to question your ruling, of course, Madam President, but I would Senator Faulkner—My point on the point respectfully put to you that that is a supple- of order taken by Senator Hill is that, given mentary question arising out of her question that the minister has indicated that he intends and not out of the answer— to take the question on notice, surely it is proper for Senator Crossin in a supplementary The PRESIDENT—That is correct. question to be able to outline further details Senator Hill—And a supplementary ques- of what she requires from this minister who tion must arise out of the answer, not out of is totally incapable of answering any question the original or primary question. in this chamber. The PRESIDENT—Supplementary ques- Senator KEMP—On the point of order, tions initially, when they were introduced to Madam President, I refer you to a statement the Senate, had to be supplementary to the an- that was made by someone who some people swer. In recent years, most supplementary would say is a very distinguished parliamen- questions have been supplementary to the tarian—others would have a different view— original question and not the answer. When Mr Keating, when asked to provide somewhat the Senate referred that matter to the Proced- technical advice on tax matters. This is what ure Committee, as I said a few minutes ago, he said: it was the view of the Procedure Committee Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 625 that the way things were functioning at the The bottom line is that scientists do not know present time was the way it would continue. why this occurs from time to time and the If Senator Kemp has anything he wishes to issue will continue to remain one for debate add, he may do so. and research. Hopefully in the future we Senator KEMP—Yes, I do have some might better understand these occurrences, information which I wish to add. If that is a and if it is possible—although the chances are serious question and you want a direct re- that it will not be—that some human action sponse to it, I will certainly supply that to you can be taken to deter the increase in tempera- when I am improperly informed. ture, that might take place. Global Warming: Great Barrier Reef Senator ALLISON—Madam President, I ask a supplementary question. I thank the Senator ALLISON—Madam President, my minister for his answer, but again I ask: question is directed to the Minister for the Minister, did you or your officials try to Environment and Heritage. I refer to this suppress in any way the Great Barrier Reef week’s conference of more than 250 world Marine Park Authority’s concern about that experts in coral reef science in Townsville. link between coral bleaching and global Minister, is it true that your government warming? I think you did not quite answer specifically instructed the Great Barrier Reef that question, so I put it to you again. Why Marine Park Authority not to link the world- did the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park wide and disastrous coral bleaching to global Authority call a press conference to say that warming, in spite of overwhelming evidence coral bleaching was related to the wet season to the contrary? Are you aware that interna- when at the same time world experts were tional scientists and reef managers are angry saying that the biggest threat to coral reefs and that they are accusing your government was rising sea temperatures linked to global of scientific censorship? warming? Senator HILL—That is news to me. Can I firstly say that I hope the honourable senator Senator HILL—I just said that there is a has had an opportunity to peruse the State of concern that run-off could be contributing to the Great Barrier Reef world heritage area this factor. I also said that it is not known yet 1998 report that was released yesterday. It is whether there is any link between these principally the result of about three years of occurrences of increased temperature in the scientific assessment and records the good water and emissions of greenhouse gases. state the assets are in, which is a credit to the Lastly, GBRMPA’s brief to me was as I just Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority’s related to the honourable senator—that is, that management and supervision of the reef and there is no established link. That is the view something of which all Australians would of the authority. obviously be proud. In relation to the coral bleaching that has Goods and Services Tax: Input Credits occurred in the last 12 months—which does occur from time to time—yes, this latest Senator QUIRKE—My question is to occurrence early this year was more severe Senator Kemp, the Assistant Treasurer. In than is usually the case. On this occasion it is regard to the remitting of GST input credits believed to have been related to an increase to registered businesses, will a business lose in water temperature in the relevant areas. its input credit when an item it has purchased There is some suggestion that there may have is used less than 50 per cent for business been other factors involved, including turbidi- purposes? ty and some other stressful occurrences. Having said that, there is still no compelling Senator KEMP—I suggest that that par- evidence that the particular instance of warm- ticular question wait until the bill is tabled in er water this year is related to climate change the House of Representatives. We will pro- activities associated with greenhouse gases. vide an answer then. 626 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

Regional Forest Agreements a period for contribution from interested Senator MARGETTS—My question is to parties, an opportunity to make submissions. the Minister for the Environment and Heritage In fact over 30,000 public submissions were representing the Minister for Forestry and received. They have been analysed, which Conservation. I refer the minister to the WA was a huge task in itself. We have even had Legislative Council Standing Committee on an independent audit done on the process of Ecologically Sustainable Development report receipt and analysis of submissions so there on its inquiry into the WA Regional Forest can be no suggestion that they will not be Agreement which recommended, amongst properly taken into account. The negotiation other things, that the WA Department of between the Commonwealth government and Conservation and Land Management be the Western Australian government continues replaced as lead agency for the RFA, that the and is now well advanced. I am hopeful that RFA be finalised through an accord process it will reach a conclusion in the reasonably and that the draft RFA be released for public near future. comment and assessment by the EPA. I ask: Senator MARGETTS—Madam President, given that this unanimous report of the all- I ask a supplementary question. The minister party standing committee reflects a broad failed to answer the specific question in concern in the community about the direction relation to the environmental impact assess- of the WA RFA, what is the current WA ment. Given that the Western Australian RFA RFA, when is it expected to be signed and scoping agreement states that the draft RFA will the Commonwealth government be imple- will be released for EPA assessment, will the menting any of the recommendations in the minister ensure that this commitment is met? Legislative Council’s standing committee If he does not, do the agreements between report? states and the federal government mean anything at all? Senator HILL—I suppose I should start by congratulating Mr Tuckey on his appointment Senator HILL—Under Western Australian as Minister for Forestry and Conservation. Mr legislation the agreement must go to the WA Tuckey will of course bring to the Western EPA, which is somewhat different from other Australian Regional Forest Agreement local states when the local assessments become part knowledge as well as years of practical and of the RFA negotiation itself. Obviously if useful experience in relation to natural re- that is the requirement of Western Australian source matters. Having said that, the progress law, that will be complied with. on an RFA for Western Australia, whilst it is Goods and Services Tax: Voluntary a little slower than I would have liked, re- School Fees mains on track. It is true that the Western Australian Legislative Council conducted an Senator CARR—My question without inquiry and came to the conclusion that what notice is to Senator Kemp, the Assistant was needed in Western Australia was a Treasurer. Will the GST be applicable to negotiated outcome between all stakehold- various voluntary user fees charged by ers—the sort of solution that one would have government schools as opposed to tuition fees suggested could only come from a ‘green’ for private schools which will be GST-free? chairman of the committee. It is totally un- Senator KEMP—Some of these issues workable, nevertheless that is the way it is. were considered in the Vos committee report. The report was of course to the Western Senator Jacinta Collins—Can we have a Australian Legislative Council, and how the look? Western Australian parliament responds to it Senator KEMP—Yes, you can. When the is something to be determined by the Western report is tabled by the Treasurer, you will be Australian parliament. able to have a look. That issue and the issue In relation to the RFA, as the honourable of which areas are GST-free are considered in senator would know, the reports on options that report. That will enable me to provide a have now been out for some time. There was detailed response to your question. This Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 627 package is one which is very beneficial to mendous practical value that derives from education. Make no mistake, the education online services, electronic commerce and a sector is a very big winner in the tax reform whole raft of new technologies. It is well- package that the government has brought known not only that Australians are notori- down. We will make sure that wherever ously early adopters of new technologies but practical the fees in relation to private schools also that when it comes to PCs, for example, and public schools are treated in an equitable we are not far behind the US in household and fair manner. penetration, which runs at about one-third. Senator CARR—Madam President, I ask About 14 per cent of households are con- a supplementary question. Given that answer, nected to the Internet and use the Internet Minister, how does the government justify to regularly—well ahead of other countries. the parents of students at Broadmeadows Senator Lundy—What are the stats for Secondary College that they should be subsi- rural Australia? dising the fees paid by parents who can afford Senator ALSTON—The stats for rural to send their children to Geelong Grammar? Australia are that you failed comprehensively Will the government ensure that parents of to deliver the goods. You made a complete students at government schools will not have goose of yourself at Albury. The industry is to pay a GST on so-called voluntary fees, amazed that you even got a guernsey as which in effect they have no choice but to shadow minister shadowing the shadow pay? minister. Apart from that we have performed Senator KEMP—Fees which are paid in brilliantly. relation to education are GST-free. I am not The PRESIDENT—Senator Alston, you sure what point you are making. I was under should be addressing your remarks through the impression you were making another the chair. point. I was thinking of making another point: Senator ALSTON—I am sorry, Madam those fees which were not compulsory in President. I was provoked. We certainly relation to curriculum. accept an obligation to ensure that all Austral- Senator Carr—You were talking about the ians are aware of not only the Internet and Vos committee. You can’t have it both ways. those facilities but also the enormous job Senator KEMP—Senator Faulkner, if you opportunities that are provided and the emer- could just keep quiet for the briefest of ging global skills shortage that will mean that moments one could respond to the question. many school graduates will be able to get Fees in relation to educational activities are very significant premiums from pursuing GST-free. That applies to private and public computer related careers. We do have an schools. I thought you were speaking about obligation to ensure that people have access various fees in relation to clubs and soci- to maximum benefits to ensure that those who eties—in that voluntary sense. are otherwise missing out in rural and remote Australia are given all the opportunities that Online Australia Day the Labor Party would simply deny them. We Senator McGAURAN—My question funded them through a $250 million regional without notice is to the Minister for Com- telecommunications infrastructure fund which munications, Information Technology and the the Labor Party opposed tooth and nail during Arts, Senator Alston. I note today information the original Telstra debate and then put out a about Online Australia Day this Friday, 27 press release during the election campaign— November. Will the Minister explain to the in the name of Senator Schacht but obviously Senate the importance of this day and the endorsed by the rest of the crew—basically activities to be staged around Australia? knocking off the money. It was pure political Senator ALSTON—Online Australia Day theft. You will not be forgotten for that. is this coming Friday. It is a very important The Internet does offer tremendous oppor- opportunity to ensure that there is maximum tunities. It breaks down the tyranny of dis- awareness in the general public of the tre- tance. It enables much greater levels of social 628 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 interaction in rural areas. It enables people to of the GST induced price increases for hous- tackle new markets not only in Australia but ing costs? How does this change impact on around the world. It provides access to a the government’s economy-wide estimate that plethora of information for both adults and prices will rise by only 1.9 per cent under the schoolchildren. It provides enormous oppor- GST? tunities for online commerce, both business to Senator KEMP—As Senator Cook said, business and business to consumers. In many the estimate is that prices will rise by 1.9 per respects IT and the information economy are cent overall as a result of the tax reform going to drive us into the next millennium. program. A wide range of taxes are coming Online Australia Day is part of a concerted off and there is the imposition of a GST. The effort by this government. We have pro- overall effect on the economy has been claimed 1999 Online Australia Year. We held estimated, as a result of Treasury modelling, Australia’s first electronic summit, e- at 1.9 per cent. This takes into account all the commerce summit, in April this year designed data which is available to the Treasury. We to energise business into taking up the com- believe—and the Labor Party has not been mercial opportunities. Over the last six able to shake these statistics one iota, I might months the national Office for the Information say—that the overall effect will be 1.9 per Economy has been conducting a series of cent. regional summits. We are going to have 30 in During the last week of the election cam- all to ensure that people do understand these paign, the Labor Party ran some very exten- benefits. sive advertisements which argued that the This Online Australia Day will involve not impact of the GST would be five times the only the launch of a federal government web figure which had been estimated by the site for families but a virtual classroom government. That was wrong; that was a lie. linking 40 schools around Australia, Internet We have not had one apology from the Labor access and classes in more than 700 schools Party for those quite disgraceful ads. We and libraries, the launch of the Farmwide believe that the figures which have been satellite based trial and online ABC forums— produced which show the overall impact of in other words, a whole raft of opportunities. the GST are fair. People will even be able to see whether Senator Conroy—That’s not true. Senator Schacht has managed to update his web site in the last 18 months. I am sure they Senator KEMP—They have been modelled will not bother going to Senator Lundy’s by the Treasury on the best data available to because she is still learning the technology. them. The Labor Party, despite great efforts No doubt the Labor Party is offered the on their part to shake this figure, have not resources to try and assist those who have been able to do so, and we stand by that 1.9 some degree of computer literacy. Online per cent figure. Australia Day should be a unique opportunity. Senator Conroy—That’s not true and you I am sure the unions will fund the purchase know it. of technology for you and there will be free The PRESIDENT—Senator Conroy, you laptops all round. (Time expired) have been interjecting far too frequently. Goods and Services Tax: Impact on Senator COOK—Madam President, I ask Consumer Price Index a supplementary question. I am tempted to Senator COOK—My question is to the give the minister another minute to further Assistant Treasurer, Senator Kemp. I refer to humiliate himself by adding to his answer, the recent changes made to the CPI’s meas- because he did not answer the question that urement methodology and in particular the I put. The question I put was about the inclusion for the first time of expenditure on change in the measurement methodology of dwellings. Minister, given that $17.2 billion the consumer price index and the impact that was spent on residential building in 1997-98, will have on the CPI. You did not answer that what will be the impact on the CPI as a result question, Minister. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 629

Senator Alston—Madam President, I raise minister to advise the Senate as to what a point of order. Senator Cook has been going exactly the Prime Minister means when he on for almost the entire minute and has not says: yet formed anything in the shape of a ques- I don’t see the conditions of greater competition as tion. I therefore ask you to rule him out of having yet been satisfied in order to meet the [sort order because he is simply not asking a of] criteria we had in mind when we enunciated our question. response to the Wallis inquiry. Senator Faulkner—On the point of order, Could the minister outline to the Senate the Madam President: it is normal practice to detailed criteria that the government believes allow a questioner in the Senate to complete are necessary for a competitive banking their question before you make a judgment system? Is one of the criteria correcting the whether there is a question involved. If market power of the banks to impose what- Senator Alston could wait that long instead of ever fees they want on their customers? Is desperately trying to protect Senator Kemp, another the introduction of the basic banking who cannot answer any questions at all, I am accounts promised four years ago so that sure he will find that there will be a ques- pensioners and social security recipients are tion—and another one that Senator Kemp not slugged with fees? cannot answer. Senator KEMP—In relation to the second The PRESIDENT—There was a long part of the question, a variety of banks now introduction, but it was my impression that offer accounts called transactions accounts. you were asking a question. Please do so, Senator Stott Despoja—Is that one of your Senator Cook. criteria? Senator COOK—Thank you, Madam Senator KEMP—You asked me the second President. Minister, given that interest rate part of the question about what pensioners related changes will drop out of the headline and others can make use of. In relation to the CPI, will Treasury target, firstly, the new CPI first part of the question, what we are looking headline rate or, secondly, Treasury’s measure at is effectively giving consumers more of underlying inflation rate, in its consider- power. ation of monetary policy settings? Senator Conroy—I’m not sure the Com- Senator KEMP—From the point of view monwealth bank customers can take much of humiliation, Senator Cook, there was no more power! greater humiliation than occurred on 12 The PRESIDENT—Order! There are far November 1997 in a Senate legislation com- too many interjections on my left and I would mittee. That humiliation was arguably the ask that Senator Kemp be heard in the cham- greatest political meltdown since Federation. ber. Senator Vanstone—What did he do? Senator KEMP—In other words, the Senator KEMP—I will not tell you what banking sector will have to be far more he did because I may well table that after responsive to consumers. What we are seek- question time, or I may not table that, in case ing in relation to the financial sector is to you do not know what the case is, Senator. enable the consumer to have widespread We have a new index, the 13th series, and choice and for there to be effective competi- that is the index which will be very widely tion between the banks, which will drive used. down costs and ultimately deliver benefits to the consumer in terms of cheaper services. Banking: Fees and Charges We have travelled some way along that road. Senator STOTT DESPOJA—My question I do not think there is any doubt that, as a is also to the Assistant Treasurer. I refer to result of the reforms that we have brought in, the Prime Minister’s comments last night that we have been able to increase competition in there can be no mergers among the four big the financial sector. Therefore, in a variety of banks until competition improves. I ask the banking areas we can point to some very real 630 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 successes. One of those successes, of course, had the opportunity to closely read what Mr is the really historically low interest rates Joe Hockey has said. Frankly, I am always which are now available. But we still say loath to accept quotations which may have there is a way to go. been taken out of context. However, on your Senator Faulkner—You’ve still got a way recommendation I shall read closely what Mr to go. Hockey said yesterday. The PRESIDENT—Order! There are still Fringe Benefits Tax: Proposed Changes far too many interjections all around the chamber. Senators should observe the stand- Senator MARK BISHOP—My question is ing orders. directed to the Assistant Treasurer, Senator Kemp. Does the minister regard as valid the Senator KEMP—Our policies are designed criticism by business groups of the timing of to increase competition. We believe competi- its proposals to include fringe benefits on tion has increased but, nonetheless, there is employee group certificates? Will the govern- certainly a way to go. The ultimate end of a ment be giving consideration to delaying competitive market is to provide cheaper and these changes until April 2000? I also ask effective services to consumers and to provide what credence the minister gives to claims consumers with a range of choices. That is that the proposed changes have the potential: why this government is determined, as distinct from previous governments, to make sure that . . . to render the Fringe Benefits tax and related we have a truly competitive financial sector. rules the most complex that exist, both from a technical and an administrative point of view. Senator STOTT DESPOJA—Madam President, I ask a supplementary question. Will the government be meeting with the Law Minister, is it not the case that the Council of Australia, the Institute of Char- government’s policies are in effect giving tered Accountants, the Taxation Institute of more power to the banks, not more powers to Australia, the Australian Society of CPAs and consumers as you claim? Yesterday the other the Australian Taxpayers Association to Assistant Treasurer, Joe Hockey, engaged in discuss this matter? a spirited defence of banks, suggesting that Senator KEMP—I would like to make a people who complained about increased fees couple of points. Firstly, Senator, you have were actually subsidising an old banking actually asked me to explain your policy. Did system. As the Treasurer’s right-hand man, whoever passed you that question tell you that does the minister endorse the comments of the that was actually the policy that you took to Treasurer’s left-hand man who, according to the election? Did they say that to you? This the Treasury web site, still has no specific job is unique. If I am wrong I am sure senators duties? Does this mean that Australians now will correct me, and you have a supplemen- face the prospect not of a government that tary and a good chance to correct me. I am prevents banks from increasing fees but a looking at Senator Cook, who helped write government that is encouraging banks to do this very unsuccessful tax policy. He can nod so? or shake his head to indicate whether my Senator KEMP—Senator, if I can take the memory does serve me. My memory was that last part of your question, you have got this the Labor Party picked up all the fringe truly wrong. benefits tax changes which the government Senator Stott Despoja—I have it here. proposed in its election policy. So this is a unique case in that a Labor Party senator has Senator KEMP—We are about providing got to his feet and asked me to explain Labor market forces which enable better services to Party policy—very unusual. The other com- consumers. As I said, in a number of areas we ment that I would make is that I think the can point to some important gains. We are Labor Party picked up this policy— very keen to bring about effective competition in the marketplace for financial services so Senator Ian Campbell—Option C! Option that consumers have real choices. I have not C! Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 631

The PRESIDENT—Order! Shouting across in particular’? Minister, what has changed the chamber is unacceptable behaviour. your mind on the use of group certificates for Senator KEMP—The other comment that the collection of FBT? I would make is that the Labor Party picked Senator KEMP—Senator Bishop did not up this policy because they, like us, saw there clarify his question. His question was not was a need to make sure there was a signifi- about the GST, which we know the Labor cant improvement in the fringe benefits area. Party does not support; it was about the FBT, We moved down that road in relation to our which we understood the Labor Party did tax reform package and you, in this section, support. It was actually in their policy, so the moved exactly down the same road. Unlike clarification he gave us was not effective. you, we always listen carefully to a wide What has changed is that we have a major tax range of groups—community groups and reform package which is designed, among business groups. If they wish to put forward other things, to assist business. views to us, we will always listen to those Senator Conroy—Biggest burden of red views. In the implementation of the tax tape ever given. package, Senator, we will certainly ensure that it is done in a way which minimises problems The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Con- for the business community. That is, of roy, stop interjecting. course, part of the ongoing consultations Senator KEMP—In a number of important that— areas—the withholding of a range of pay- Senator Cook—Will you answer the ments—there will be substantial savings to question? business. There have been statistics indicating that some companies have up to 32 contacts Senator KEMP—I have answered the with the tax office each year. Under our question. The policy that is stated in our tax proposals, these contacts with the tax office reform program is that the reporting of can be reduced to, from memory, about four. grossed up taxable value of fringe benefits We believe that the overall picture is that greater than $1,000 on group certificates will business will certainly benefit substantially. be from the 1999-2000 year. Senator, I am (Time expired) not aware of any moves to have that changed at this time. Taxation Reform: Regional Australia Senator MARK BISHOP—Just for the Senator FERGUSON—My question is ad- record, I should answer your kind invitation, dressed to the Minister for Regional Services, Minister. It is not the position of our party to Territories and Local Government, Senator support the GST. We will not support it in the Ian Macdonald. future and we will oppose it when it comes. Opposition senators—Oh! In the context of the answer to the specific question, we thank you for advising that you The PRESIDENT—Order! That sort of will not extend the implementation date until reaction is absolutely not helpful and it is April 2000. quite absurd. I ask a supplementary question, Madam Senator FERGUSON—Minister, rural President. Minister, in regard to the use of communities will be big winners under the group certificates for the collection of FBT, government’s tax reform plan. Will you do you recall saying on 6 May 1997 that the inform the Senate what will be the effect of use of group certificates for collection of the taxation reform on rural communities? Will superannuation surcharge tax would ‘involve you outline the huge reductions in transport some one million employers, would involve costs and freight charges in country areas? some 10 million taxpayers with their group What will be the effect of the introduction of certificates’ and that, in rejecting the group a GST, particularly on local government? certificate method for collecting the surcharge Senator IAN MACDONALD—Madam tax, you said you ‘were not prepared to President, Senator Ferguson will know, impose additional red tape on small business because he comes from regional Australia, 632 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 that it is one of the most important parts of As well, we have done quite a lot of other Australia when it comes to export earnings things in rural and regional Australia which and the wealth that this nation creates. Sena- we will build upon. You will all remember tor Ferguson, because he comes from the the $525 million agricultural Advance Aus- country and because he has interests in the tralia package, the $1.25 billion Natural country, will know that the best thing you can Heritage Trust—much of which went to rural do for business in rural and regional Australia and regional Australia—the Federation Fund, is to get interest rates down, get inflation and a lot of good work done on the highways. down and look at unemployment problems Senator Ferguson asked me what will come and attend to them. I am very pleased to say out of the new tax reform package more that in the first term of the Howard govern- specifically for the bush. Once you address ment we did that. interest rates, once you address inflation, once Senator Conroy—What about regional you help reduce unemployment in rural and banking? regional areas, the best thing you can possibly do is get the costs of transport down. That is The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator what the tax reform package will do. Conroy, you have been interjecting through- out. We will be reducing the costs of the big trucks that take goods out into rural and Senator IAN MACDONALD—We hope regional Australia and take goods from rural to have the opportunity of initiating our tax and regional Australia back to the ports by 22 reform package, and I hope the Democrats per cent because the wholesale sales tax will will help us in this because it is just so go completely. It will be replaced by a 10 per important for rural and regional Australia. cent GST but, because it is an input into Senator Ferguson asked me what the impacts business, it will go completely. So the cost of will be. Regional businesses will share in the those huge trucks will fall by 22 per cent, and $10 billion reduction in costs to Australian that will make the cost of transport to rural business if we are able to implement our and regional Australia so much better. In reform package. addition to that, those trucks that run out to Senator Robert Ray—On a point of order, rural and regional Australia and bring the Madam President: can the rural members goods back into port— having a subcommittee be seated so they can Opposition senators interjecting— hear this very important answer on rural The PRESIDENT—Order! The level of matters? noise on my left is absolutely unacceptable. The PRESIDENT—Order! I call Senator Senator IAN MACDONALD—Madam Macdonald. President, they have absolutely no interest in Senator IAN MACDONALD—It would be rural and regional Australia. In fact, they more important, Madam President, if Senator appointed as their spokesman someone who, Ray would listen to this because he and his when she moved from the Gold Coast to the colleagues have absolutely no interest in rural outskirts of Brisbane, thought she was moving and regional Australia, despite the fact that to the bush; someone who quite clearly told most of the wealth of our nation comes from her former colleagues in the Democrats not to there. go near the bush because there were no votes there at all. That is the sort of insult the There will be, with the tax reform package, Labor Party put out to people in rural and reductions of up to $1.1 billion in the cost to regional Australia. agricultural industries. In the export area, costs will fall by $4.5 billion. They are huge As I was saying, the cost of running those savings for rural and regional Australia. They trucks out into rural and regional Australia will in fact give rural Australia the sort of and of bringing the goods back into ports are boost that it did not see in the 13 years prior quite enormous.(Time expired) to the Howard government taking office. Opposition senators interjecting— Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 633

The PRESIDENT—Order! Behaviour in inappropriately, in my view, but nonetheless the chamber is absolutely unacceptable and tagged it slightly to my responsibility—as to disgraceful. It brings the chamber into disre- whether the AFP had used any resources in pute. The level of noise is absolutely unac- relation to Senator Knowles. I am advised the ceptable. answer is no. Senator FERGUSON—Madam President, Goods and Services Tax: Banking I ask a supplementary question. I ask the Services Minister to further inform us of the effect of tax reform, of the GST, particularly on local Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant government, which was the last part of my Treasurer) (3.05 p.m.)—As indicated in question. question time, I table the press release which Senator IAN MACDONALD—Thank you, was discussed in the question by Senator Senator Ferguson. I had not quite got around Conroy. I do not propose to table the extract to explaining the benefits regarding transport from Hansard of 12 November 1997 which costs. Fuel will fall by 25c a litre for the big involved Senator Cook. trucks that bring the goods from rural and Senator CONROY (Victoria) (3.07 p.m.)— regional areas into the ports. I move: In relation to local government, there is That the Senate take note of the answer given by more good news. Local government rates and the Assistant Treasurer (Senator Kemp), to a charges and all regulatory matters will be question without notice asked by Senator Conroy absolutely GST free. They will get rid of all today, relating to the proposed goods and services the wholesale sales tax inputs, the indirect tax and bank fees. ones that really account for some $70 million What we have seen today has been one of the on local government in Australia. And, in most pitiful attempts to answer the questions fact, they will make huge savings from the that have been put before him. There have cut in fuel costs. For example, the Queensland been 16 questions in three days—16 questions Local Government Association—(Time ex- he has had from the opposition—but he has pired) not answered one. That is what we have seen. Senator Hill—Madam President, I ask that ‘It is in the book’, he says, ‘it is in the press further questions be placed on the Notice release.’ It is anywhere but in his head! We Paper. have a situation at the moment—and I am glad you have come back, Senator Kemp— ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE Senator Kemp—But I am not staying for you; don’t get your hopes up. Millennium Bug: Government Documents Senator CONROY—where banks in this Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— country are making massive profits, and this Minister for Justice and Customs) (3.04 government wants to duck facing up to it. We p.m.)—Yesterday, Senator Lundy asked me a are seeing exorbitant, excessive profiteering question relating to an investigation of and greed from the banks. We are seeing a 20 millennium bug documents. I can advise that per cent return on shareholders’ capital on an investigation is being conducted and, in retail banking—and that is on ordinary mums accordance with the longstanding practice of and dads and pensioners and battlers. There successive governments, I have nothing is a 20 per cent return coming to the banks. further to add to that. It was referred directly That is what is happening out there right now. by DoFA to the Australian Federal Police. We are seeing massive increases in fees and Knowles, Senator Sue: Alleged Death charges. Threats And what did Mr Hockey, the minister, Senator VANSTONE (South Australia— say? He said that they have a system: Minister for Justice and Customs) (3.04 where we have the opportunity to get the full p.m.)—Senator Cook asked a question—quite benefit of user pays. 634 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

That is in yesterday’s Hansard. That is where lutely nothing. You have been silent. As this government is coming from—‘the full ordinary battlers out there in Gippsland have benefit of user pays’. had fees and charges stuck on top of them The banks have not stopped yet. Everybody day after day and massive increases, what in the industry knows there are more fees and have you said? Absolutely nothing. increased charges coming. Everybody in the Senator Knowles—I rise on a point of community knows they are coming. What is order. Madam Deputy President, I draw your this government trying to do? They are trying attention to the standing orders. Is Senator to claim all the credit for interest rates being Conroy going to be forced to address his low but, when banks lose their margins and remarks through the chair or is he just going recoup it through fees and charges, what do to scream at another senator across the cham- they say? They say, ‘It is nothing to do with ber? us. We are responsible for the low interest The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—No, he is rates but, just because the banks are making going to be asked to address the chair. Some their money in a different way from ordinary of the interjections can cease too. Senator punters, that is nothing to do with us. There Conroy, please speak to the chair. is nothing we can do about it.’ They claim the credit on the one hand, but they do not want Senator CONROY—What we have seen to face up to what is happening to ordinary is silence from this government. As bank battlers out there in Australia. branches in suburbs of major cities have been hitting the fence, where have the government Yesterday Mr Hockey said, ‘There is a been? Running away from it. They do not simple choice. Do you want lower interest want to face up to it. But there is a communi- rates or do you want competition in the ty obligation involved. Even Don Argus provision of financial services?’ I always admits there is a community obligation thought competition was supposed to be about involved in banking. seeing fees and charges going down—not Senator Forshaw—He is retiring. going up, because that is what is happening. In the last decade, a decade that had low Senator CONROY—Exactly, Senator inflation and modest economic growth, we Forshaw. Now he is retiring he has a bit of have seen bank profits for the big four in- courage. That is what he has had to say on crease by 440 per cent. Bank profits are up by the issue. Even the National Bank, Australia’s 440 per cent. The profits of the big four have biggest bank, has turned round and said, grown 3½ times faster than the economy as ‘There is a community service obligation.’ a whole. In 1997, the big four earned $3.2 What has this government done? It is ignoring billion more from fees and charges than at the it: it wants it to go away. According to the start of the decade. We have seen massive minister, Mr Hockey, you have a choice: you increases. get higher interest rates or fees and charges. Those are the choices faced by the communi- Senator McGauran—What did you do in ty. The government does not want to face up 13 years? to it. Senator CONROY—Senator McGauran Senator Calvert—Twenty-one per cent asks, ‘What did you lot do? What did you do interest rates. when you were in government?’ The fees and charges have come because the margins have Senator CONROY—As bank branches been squeezed from interest rates being low. have closed in Tasmania, Senator Calvert has But you claim you are not responsible for it. said nothing. (Time expired) The real push for fees and charges has come Senator KNOWLES (Western Australia) in the last couple of years and you try to (3.11 p.m.)—I find today’s debate, yet again, pretend it has nothing to do with you; you do quite bewildering. The Labor Party, very not have to take any responsibility for it. carefully and selectively, forget their record. Senator McGauran, as bank branches have Let us not forget that the very state that the closed in rural Victoria, you have said abso- previous speaker, Senator Conroy, comes Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 635 from is the state that had a Labor government opposition, having been defeated the second that saw banks go into huge decline, branches time, still pretending that the system they close one after the other and the State Bank created and loyally defended is working. They hit the wall. I note that Senator Conroy is are pretending that it helps businesses when walking straight out of the chamber. He does it actually hurts businesses and hurts job not want to listen. He is too embarrassed. The creation. They should know that, because they fact of the matter is that it was the Labor state were the ones that had a million people government that made sure that people’s unemployed. They were the ones that had money was put at risk and they are the ones interest rates at 17 per cent. that made sure that branches closed every- Senator Calvert—21 per cent. where. Senator KNOWLES—Or 21 per cent. Senator Calvert—And in South Australia. Thank you, Senator Calvert. They know how Senator KNOWLES—And in South many businesses went broke during their time Australia, and in Western Australia, my own of government, and they know how income state. As if the Western Australian Labor tax rates were crushing families year after government did not do enough through the year. We want to fix this 1930s tax system— WA Inc. years to ensure insecurity through which they wanted to do 13 years ago, and building societies and credit unions. Let us still have not had the courage to do purely not forget also that the Labor Party was in and simply because they thought they could government for 13 years federally and during win an election on it. It is an old, outdated that time it could have chosen to do what the system. The new tax system will have one coalition government has already done in but simple tax. Why not start to be honest about a few short years and will come into action what the tax proposals are all about and not next month, and that is, allow the building divert off to these side issues when they societies and credit unions to issue cheques in actually created the problem? It is this their own names, thereby increasing competi- government trying to fix it. tion and giving greater flexibility to those The lights having gone out in the cham- people who choose to use building societies ber— and credit unions as their alternative source of Senator KNOWLES—We don’t seem to savings and financial communication. be able to fix much with the electricity Let us also not forget that, under the Liberal system! But this approach is just so sympto- and National coalition government, the aver- matic of what they are doing. But also let us age family is now $300 a week better off than remind you that the new tax system is going it would have been under the Labor govern- to abolish the financial institutions duty, ment. But that is also forgotten. Those oppos- which is the money that you are charged ite say, ‘Let us just make sure that we forget when you put your money into the account. all of the things that have been done and It will abolish the bank account debits tax, the simply look at some manufactured answer.’ money you are charged when you take money We sit in this chamber every solitary day and out of your bank account. It will abolish hear the distortions about what the tax reform stamp duty on mortgages when people buy policy is going to do. We hear about simply homes. It will abolish stamp duties on shares, adding on a 10 per cent tax. and it will abolish stamp duties on leases. It Those opposite know that that is not true, will abolish stamp duties and bed taxes. (Time but they keep repeating it. Equally, the ones expired) who want to be a little more honest say that Senator CROWLEY (South Australia) it will simply remove the wholesale sales tax (3.16 p.m.)—Such was the power of that last and put on a 10 per cent tax. But they do not speech it plunged most of us into the dark! talk about all the taxes coming off. They do We might as well stay with that because what not talk about how many taxes there are. Let we have is a government that refuses to take us not forget that there are many taxes. Here on the banks, a government that claims that we are with Labor, nearly three years into it is here on behalf of the citizens but has 636 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 refused to take on the banks. The opening and shareholders’ returns and consumer and paragraph of an article by AAP in the Can- customer consideration. The banks are moving berra Times today, Wednesday, 25 November, to satisfy the needs of their large customers says that the federal government refused and more and more disregarding the needs of yesterday to even criticise the Commonwealth their small customers—the profit margin is Bank’s pre-Christmas decision to raise fees not so much, they are walking. and charges, instead advising customers to We have just completed a regional employ- shop around. I think it says it in a nutshell. ment inquiry of the Senate Employment, We can add to that the failure of this Education and Training Committee, which I government to take any responsibility for chaired and which has now changed its name. these fees and the answers given in this That regional employment inquiry went all Senate today by Minister Kemp, which are a around Australia. Everywhere the story was pathetic attempt to obfuscate at every turn. the same: ‘Banks have left our small commu- They do not want to answer. They do not nities and the branches have closed, and want to deal with it. They do not want to deal behind the bank closures go the small busi- with the fact that these charges have gone up. nesses and the money turning over that local Senator Knowles has just made some virtue consumers will provide.’ You know that, and of the fact that the GST will do away with you did not know what to do about it. But the some of those bank charges. Well, why aren’t communities are being backed by the Bendigo you complaining bitterly about the one that Bank, for example, which is one of those the bank is putting on? On the one hand, you organisations that is back in there on behalf are taking some of those charges away; with of small customers. the other hand, they are slipping another one The concern that we have on this side is on. And who are going to be affected? It will that it is not a fair notion to put up a flat be the people who use their accounts most, charge, as the Commonwealth Bank is pro- including the little people with small ac- posing. It is going to very dramatically affect counts—people like pensioners, school chil- people who regularly withdraw small amounts dren and small savers who do not want to be of money from their modest accounts. They carrying a large amount of cash around, who are the people we are particularly concerned therefore go often to the bank to draw their about, and we are concerned that this govern- money from the tellers, and who might often, ment does not care to even chide the banks if they are actually up to it, want to be both- on it. ered using an automatic teller machine. These The Advertiser, not known as a red rag but are the people who are going to be hit by as a much more a conservative newspaper, these charges—not the top end of town, who says in its editorial today: will be enormously advantaged by your No wonder Australian banks are so unpopular. No government’s proposals in health and in tax wonder there is burgeoning movement to start more and all sorts of different systems. You do not accountable new community based banks. give a hoot for the people at the bottom end Indeed, Mr Editorial Writer. To continue: of town, and you do not care at all about what banks are doing. The federal shadow Treasurer, Mr Crean, suggested that the Howard government should act on the Senator Hill—Oh! What about a million matter. Such interventionism would be ill advised— unemployed under Labor? No surprise! Then it says: Senator CROWLEY—Senator Hill, please. At the same time the Prime Minister, Mr Howard, Such a loud and vulgar groan! You do not or the Treasurer, Mr Costello, should sharply apparently give some regard to the balance remind banks that the government could take such between caring for consumers and caring for power, and that should it do so it would have shareholders. Madam Deputy President, the public opinion entirely on its side. braying opposite indicates something—I don’t This government is hopelessly out of touch know what; you can’t hear it. But there is a with public opinion. You may have passed the balance to be drawn between massive profits barrier and won the election, but you did not Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 637 take the minds and hearts of the people with So what is that going to do? It is going to you. This bank exercise and your failure to help the adjustment that is required on the even give a hoot about your community current account deficit, which is still a prob- obligation by requiring the banks to address lem here in Australia; but also our tax plan, it is going to backfire all over you in no time through the GST, is going to encourage at all. people to save more rather than to consume. You talk about the impacts of the GST and So that is also going to help the current the savings. How can you possibly justify the account deficit. And it is going to encourage benefits of the GST because it reduces costs growth and more jobs in the economy. in the banks and at the same time give no Just contrast what we are doing and what regard to the new bank increases? the government has done with what the ALP Senator GIBSON (Tasmania) (3.21 p.m.)— did in the last four years of its reign. Did it Again we have the Labor Party attacking the go out with its tax plan in 1993 and tell the government’s tax plan. We have had Senator Australian community what it was going to Crowley spending her five minutes talking do—that it was going to lift taxes and about banking charges. I remind Senator charges, the total revenue taken in by the Crowley and the Senate that with the tax government, by 30 per cent? No, it did not package this government is proposing to tell anyone about that. But that is what it reduce banking costs by removing financial actually did. Not only did it do that; it also institutions duty and debits tax, currently with went out and borrowed heavily. Over four an aggregate of $2 billion and expected in years of Mr Keating as Prime Minister it went two years time to be about $2½ billion. We out and borrowed another $70 billion and are going to reduce the cost structure for spent all that as well. It also spent $9 billion people to do banking. that it got from the sale of assets—half of the I go back to the general case. Again, the Commonwealth Bank, Qantas and CSL. It Labor Party have been questioning the Assist- spent 27 per cent of GDP in the last year of ant Treasurer today about the $10 billion the Keating government. lower costs for business. That money is going Contrast that with us. What have we done? to do two things to business costs. They are We have reduced costs. We have reduced the going to be substantially reduced and then, government expenditure in the GDP from 27 through competition in the marketplace, the per cent in the last year of the Keating prices of goods and services are going to government to 25 per cent today. The come down too. As you all know, the Treas- Commonwealth accounts for 25 per cent of ury estimates of the CPI increase is going to expenditure in the economy. Not only that: be only 1½ per cent. we are currently in surplus. In other words, Another critical thing about the lowered we are living within our means, which is costs for business is the big impact this is quite a big contrast with what the previous going to have on exports. Business costs are government did. Not only that: we are also going to be lowered by 3.2 per cent in general reducing Commonwealth government debt. terms across all business in Australia, but the We inherited a Commonwealth debt of about costs for exporters doing business will be $96 billion, and it has been significantly lowered by 3½ per cent. We have been reduced to date. The government plans to shooting ourselves in the foot in Australia by keep reducing that government debt. Further- penalising our exporters and by giving en- more, what did we do with regard to the couragement to importers importing into election? We went out a year before the Australia. We are doing something about that. election—in fact longer—and announced that We are going to give our exporters a free we were going to go in for tax reform. We kick. We are going to give them help and went through proper process. We actually had encouragement by giving them, through the an inquiry, which I had the honour of chair- new tax system, lower costs of 3½ per cent— ing. We had over 650 submissions. (Time that is, $4½ billion per annum. expired) 638 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

Senator FORSHAW (New South Wales) hundred and seventy-five branches have (3.26 p.m.)—Senator Gibson has just spent a closed. Fee income for the ANZ Bank has fair amount of his time talking about the sup- gone up to $1.5 billion in 12 months. posed benefits of a GST to business. Of Whilst we see the impact upon small course, when you hear the bank executives depositors, families and households around these days, they do not talk about customers; this country, what has happened to the sala- they talk about the benefits to business, the ries for bank executives? That is a different benefits to the bank, and the benefits to share- story. For instance, the Chief Executive holders. Senator Gibson, the fact is that a Officer of the ANZ Bank earned, in his first major, if not the essential, role of banks is to year, $1.76 million, and $560,000 of that was serve the needs of its customers. All the bank a performance bonus. He got paid $560,000 customers out there, the many hundreds, for closing down 175 branches, reducing thousands, millions of depositors in banks— service! ordinary men and women and their families in this country—know that if there is one In answer to a question asked by Senator thing they are not getting today from banks it Conroy, Senator Kemp stated at the end of his is decent, good service. Continually we have comments, ‘The ultimate policy of the coali- seen—and particularly over the last 12 tion government is to create cheaper and more months—a reduction in services, along with efficient services.’ They are not becoming an increase in fees and charges. more efficient. How are they becoming more efficient when hundreds of branches are being Let us have a look at that record over the closed around this country and bank custom- 12 months. Senator Knowles likes to talk ers are being shunted out by increasing fees about 13 years. Let us see what has happened for over the counter services and are being under this government in just 12 months. forced more and more to use automatic teller With respect to the ANZ group, for instance, machines? And what have the banks done in in the last 12 months only, 175 branches of the last week or two? They have increased the the ANZ Bank around this country have been fees for the use of automatic teller machines. closed! At the same time, what has happened They now want to get customers out of the to the ANZ’s profits? Their profits went up bank, away from the ATMs and into super- by eight per cent to $1.175 billion in 12 markets to do their banking through EFTPOS. months. Look at the other banks, for instance, the There is not a small depositor or even a National Australia Bank. The Chief Executive medium-sized depositor with the ANZ Bank is retiring on $2.7 million and what has been who has earned anywhere near that percentage the great performance of that bank over the amount on their savings. In fact, when most last 12 months? They closed 71 branches. average bank depositors—those who have They reduced the work force by approxi- their pay packet paid in each month or each mately 1,500 people. But their fee income week, have the normal household expenses went up by 19 per cent and their profits and so forth, and have to use banking ser- increased. It is the same story wherever you vices—look at their bank statements these look at the four major banks. Competition is days, most of them will find that on the a myth. It is the customers who are suffering normal average savings and cheque accounts under this government. (Time expired) the level of charges is higher than the amount Senator FERRIS (South Australia) (3.32 of interest they earn. You will come back and p.m.)—We have had a quite extraordinary say, ‘We have got interest rates low.’ That attack on the ANZ Bank this afternoon from may be okay for borrowers but there are a lot my colleague Senator Forshaw suggesting that of depositors out there who are finding they banks do not give a damn about the impact of are paying more to the banks to have access their charges on families and suggesting that to their money than they are getting by way we do not give a damn about it either. Sena- of return through the small interest that they tor Crowley made the suggestion that we do are earning. Where is the service in that? One not give a hoot about bank charges and taxes. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 639

The extraordinary thing about this is that both Most of my colleagues on this side of the of these contributions have come from mem- chamber would probably agree with that. bers of this place who where part of a govern- Those opposite might be interested to know ment which delivered interest rates of up to that this is an excerpt from a contribution that 21 per cent to farmers, to small business and was made as part of the government’s guide to families with mortgages. to tax reform presented at the National Tax- ation Summit in July 1985 by the government Senator Crowley would know that in our of the day, led by Prime Minister Hawke and home state of South Australia this led to Treasurer Paul Keating. There it is, an admis- thousands and thousands of bankruptcies in sion that this taxation system is worn out, small businesses. Thousands of farm families inefficient, beyond further patching up and lost their farms and many families were riddled with holes that are being exploited by forced to sell their properties because they tax avoiders. What better evidence—out of could not pay the bank charges that your the mouths of your own people more 10 years economic policies delivered. So when we hear ago—can there be that the taxation system who does not give a hoot about bank charges, needs repair, reform and restoration to give a to coin a rather unfortunate phrase of Senator fairer and greater opportunity to families, to Crowley’s, we suggest that Senator Crowley enjoy a greater amount of spending money and Senator Forshaw, and perhaps some of and discretionary spending, so that they are their colleagues, put a mirror up to their faces taxed when they spend and not taxed when and consider for a moment the policies which they earn? were delivered by their government to the families of Australia. As all roads lead to Rome when policies are being discussed on your side of the chamber, Senator Calvert interjecting— I suggest all roads lead to Werriwa. You only Senator FERRIS—Indeed. Gareth’s granny need to have a look at what the member for frightener— Werriwa has been suggesting the opposition should do when looking at taxation. I will end The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! my contribution by simply saying that Labor Senator Ferris, please refer to members in the needs once again to take policy seriously, not other place by their correct titles. just to use it as a campaign convenience, not Senator FERRIS—The member for Holt, something to be picked up and thrown away. Gareth Evans, made a very constructive Some of you might like to have another look suggestion for tax reform. He suggested at A Guide to Taxation Reform of 1985. There valuations of pre-1985 assets, what is known is great policy in there. If you took it on out in the community as a granny frightener, board you would realise, as we do and as the I believe. Grannies and thousands of other population of Australia do, that taxation Australians reacted appropriately by voting reform is needed. (Time expired). the opposition down. Question resolved in the affirmative. I would like to read a short and thoughtful piece from a document which members NOTICES opposite who are still in the chamber may Presentation find interesting. It is headed ‘The Vicious Circle’ and says: Senator Gibbs to move, on the next day of sitting: The patchwork system this government inherited is riddled with inefficiency and unfairness and is now That the following matters be referred to the beyond further patching up. The system has lost the Finance and Public Administration References respect of a lot of taxpayers and exploitation of the Committee for inquiry and report by 31 March system is rife. 1999: ...... (a) the extent and cost of all market research undertaken by all government departments It’s become a vicious circle. Tax rates rise. More and agencies in the period 11 March 1996 people opt out. Then tax rates have to rise again. to 3 October 1998; 640 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

(b) whether on all occasions a full and open Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure tender process was observed; and for the Service of the year ending on 30 June (c) what steps were taken to avoid the use of 1999 such market research for party-political Particulars of Certain Proposed Additional purposes. Expenditure in respect of the year ending on Senator Tambling to move, on the next 30 June 1999 day of sitting: Advance to the Minister for Finance— (1) That estimates hearings by legislation commit- Statement of Heads of Expenditure and the tees for the first half of 1999 be scheduled as amounts charged thereto pursuant to section follows: 36A of the Audit Act 1901 for the year ended 30 June 1998 1998-99 additional estimates: Provision for Running Costs Borrowings— Monday, 8 February, Tuesday, 9 February and, Statements and supporting applications of if required, Friday, 19 February (initial hear- issues, dated March, April, May and June ings—Group A) 1998 (tabled on 23 June, 30 June and 11 Wednesday, 10 February, Thursday, 11 Feb- November 1998) ruary and, if required, Friday, 12 February Final Budget Outcome 1997-98 (presented out (initial hearings—Group B) of session on 18 September 1998 and tabled Tuesday, 4 May and, if required, Thursday, 6 on 10 November 1998). May (supplementary hearings—Group A) (5) That the committees consider the proposed Wednesday, 5 May and, if required, Thursday, expenditure, expenditure under the Advance to 6 May (supplementary hearings—Group B). the Minister for Finance, the Provisions for 1999-2000 budget estimates: Running Costs Borrowings and the Final Monday, 31 May to Thursday, 3 June (initial Budget Outcome 1997-98 in accordance with hearings—Group A) the allocation of departments to committees agreed to on 11 November 1998. Monday, 7 June to Thursday, 10 June (initial hearings—Group B). (6) That consideration of the Advance to the Minister for Finance for the year ended 30 (2) That the committees meet in the following June 1998 in committee of the whole be an groups: order of the day for the day on which legisla- Group A: tion committees report on their examination of Community Affairs the Advance. Legal and Constitutional Senator Tambling to move, on the next Finance and Public Administration day of sitting: Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport. That legislation committees not hold supplemen- tary estimates hearings on the 1998-99 budget Group B: estimates. Employment, Workplace Relations, Small Business and Education Senator Tambling to move, on the next Environment, Communications, Information day of sitting: Technology and the Arts That the Senate sit from Monday, 7 December Economics to Thursday, 10 December 1998. Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade. Senator O’Brien, at the request of Senator (3) That the committees report to the Senate by Conroy, to move, on the next day of sitting: the following dates: That the Senate views, with deep concern: 9 March 1999 in respect of the 1998-99 (a) the Federal Government’s callous disregard additional estimates and total lack of interest in ensuring that the 22 June 1999 in respect of the 1999-2000 community has access to both affordable budget estimates. and accessible banking services, as evi- (4) That the following documents be referred to denced by the fact that under the Howard committees for examination and report: Government over 484 bank branches were closed in 1997-98; and Particulars of Proposed Additional Expenditure in relation to the Parliamentary Departments (b) the failure of the Government to: in respect of the year ending on 30 June 1999 (i) formally monitor bank fees, and Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 641

(ii) rule out a goods and services tax being (c) urges the Government to consider the applied to bank service charges. application of a tariff at a rate that provides effective short-term protection to the Aus- Senator Knowles to move, on the next day tralian pork industry. of sitting: Senator Lundy to move, on the next day That the Community Affairs Legislation Commit- tee be authorised to hold a public meeting during of sitting: the sitting of the Senate on Monday, 30 November That the Senate notes: 1998, from 12.30 pm to 1 pm, to take evidence for (a) the Coalition’s failure to actively address the committee’s inquiry into the Australian Radi- issues relating to access and equity in ation Protection and Nuclear Safety Bill 1998 and relation to the internet, in that only 13.5 per 2 related bills. cent of Australians have internet access and Senator O’Brien to move, on the next day that the single most cited reason for not of sitting: having a connection is the prohibitive costs; and That the Senate— (b) that, in the context of converging informa- (a) notes that: tion technologies, internet access will, in the (i) following persistent demands for action future, be the key for citizens to access by the Opposition, the Government final- fundamental information. ly, and reluctantly, launched an inquiry Senator Woodley to move, on the next day into the impact of pig meat imports on of sitting: the Australian pork industry, including an investigation of action under the safe- That the time for the presentation of the report guard provisions of the World Trade of the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Organization (WTO), Legislation Committee on the provisions of the Wool International Amendment Bill 1998 be (ii) the Productivity Commission has now extended to 2 December 1998. completed that inquiry, (iii) the commission found that the Australian BUSINESS pork industry has suffered and is suffering Finance and Public Administration serious injury as a result of prices to producers being consistently, and appreci- References Committee ably, below average production costs Motion (by Senator O’Brien, at the request during 1998, of Senator Faulkner) agreed to: (iv) the commission found that serious injury That general business notice of motion No. 2 during 1998 has been caused primarily by standing in the name of Senator Faulkner for today, imports, proposing an order for the production of documents (v) the commission report states that safe- by the Minister representing the Treasurer (Senator guard measures can be justified under the Kemp), be postponed till 30 November 1998. WTO rules, Taxation Package: Reference to (vi) the commission’s findings contradict Commitees claims by both the former Minister for Primary Industries and Energy (Mr Motion (by Senator Tambling, on behalf Anderson) and the Minister for Trade (Mr of Senator Kemp) agreed to: Fischer) that pig meat imports were not That business of the Senate notice of motion the primary cause of the industry’s prob- No.1 standing in the name of Senator Kemp for lems, and today, relating to the reference of matters to certain (vii) the Productivity Commission’s report committees, be postponed till a later hour. took 140 days to prepare, was based upon wide-ranging evidence from all Community Affairs Legislation interested parties and included a num- Committee ber of public hearings; National Competition Policy (b) calls on the Government to act quickly to put in place the WTO safeguard measures Motion (by Senator Margetts) agreed to: recommended by the Productivity Commis- That business of the Senate notice of motion no. sion rather than further delay assistance to 3 (relating to the reference of matters to the this key industry by embarking on another Community Affairs Legislation Committee) and extensive round of consultations; and general business notice of motion no. 23 (national 642 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 competition policy) standing in her name for today, (vii) three virtual radio networks streaming be postponed till the next day of sitting. live broadcasts via ABC Online throughout the day; and Government Documents: Public Interest (b) expresses its support for initiatives like Immunity Online Australia Day, which are designed to Motion (by Senator Murray) agreed to: raise awareness among Australians of the online world and provide ‘hands on’ experi- That general business notice of motion no. 24 ence of the Internet for first time users. standing in his name for today, relating to the tabling of documents under an order for the produc- TELSTRA: BENDIGO FAULT CENTRE tion of documents, be postponed till 30 November 1998. Motion (by Senator Allison) proposed: That the Senate— Superannuation: Building Awards (a) notes that: Motion (by Senator Allison) agreed to: (i) Telstra proposes to close down its Bendi- That general business notice of motion no. 21 go Fault Centre on 1 January 1999 and standing in her name for today, relating to indus- relocate the operation to Tasmania, trial awards and superannuation, be postponed till (ii) the centre staff have won awards from the next day of sitting. Telstra for excellence, Employment, Workplace Relations, Small (iii) the relocation of the centre will result in Business and Education References a net loss of at least 27 jobs to the Bendi- Committee go area, (iv) the City of Greater Bendigo was assured Motion (by Senator O’Brien) agreed to: by Telstra that these jobs would remain That business of the Senate notice of motion no. in the Bendigo area, 2 standing in his name for today, relating to the (v) the unemployment rate in the Bendigo reference of matters to the Employment, Workplace region is one of the highest in Victoria, Relations, Small Business and Education Refer- ences Committee, be postponed till 30 November (vi) considerable efforts have been made by 1998. the City of Greater Bendigo to promote Bendigo as a call centre, and ONLINE AUSTRALIA DAY (vii) the people of Bendigo, like so many Motion (by Senator Calvert) agreed to: regional communities, are fed up with the job cutting efforts of governments That the Senate— and government business enterprises; (a) notes that Online Australia Day, which is and being held on 27 November 1998, will in- (b) urges the Commonwealth Government to volve hundreds of online and offline events direct Telstra, as is provided for in the including: Telecommunications Act 1991, to reverse (i) the launch of a year-long Virtual Expo, this decision until such time as it can be featuring hundreds of government agen- demonstrated that: cies, community organisations and busi- (i) the move is cost-effective, and nesses, showcasing the best of Australia online, (ii) there is a compensatory gain in jobs for the Bendigo region. (ii) the launch of the Commonwealth Govern- ment’s web site for families, Question put. (iii) a virtual classroom linking more than 40 The Senate divided. [3.49 p.m.] schools across the nation, (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret (iv) Internet access and training in more than Reid) 700 schools, libraries and community ac- Ayes ...... 34 cess centres across the country, Noes ...... 35 (v) the launch of Farmwide’s satellite-based —— trial, providing 400 remote farmers with Majority ...... 1 access to the Internet via their television —— screens, AYES (vi) live forums featuring a range of person- Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. alities and celebrities, and Bishop, T. M. Bolkus, N. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 643

AYES (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret Bourne, V. Brown, B. Reid) Campbell, G. Carr, K. Ayes ...... 33 Collins, J. M. A. Conroy, S. Cooney, B. Crossin, P. M. Noes ...... 34 Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. —— Evans, C. V. Forshaw, M. G. Majority ...... 1 Gibbs, B. Hogg, J. —— Hutchins, S. Lees, M. H. AYES Lundy, K. Mackay, S. Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. Margetts, D. McKiernan, J. P. Bishop, T. M. Bolkus, N. Murray, A. O’Brien, K. W. K. * Bourne, V. Brown, B. Quirke, J. A. Ray, R. F. Campbell, G. Carr, K. Reynolds, M. Schacht, C. C. Collins, J. M. A. Conroy, S. Sherry, N. Stott Despoja, N. Cooney, B. Crossin, P. M. West, S. M. Woodley, J. Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. NOES Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. Abetz, E. Boswell, R. L. D. Hogg, J. Hutchins, S. Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. * Lees, M. H. Lundy, K. Campbell, I. G. Chapman, H. G. P. Mackay, S. Margetts, D. Colston, M. A. Crane, W. McKiernan, J. P. Murray, A. Eggleston, A. Ellison, C. O’Brien, K. W. K. * Quirke, J. A. Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J. Ray, R. F. Reynolds, M. Gibson, B. F. Heffernan, W. Schacht, C. C. Sherry, N. Herron, J. Kemp, R. Stott Despoja, N. West, S. M. Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. Woodley, J. Macdonald, I. Macdonald, S. NOES MacGibbon, D. J. McGauran, J. J. J. Abetz, E. Brownhill, D. G. C. Minchin, N. H. Newman, J. M. Calvert, P. H. * Campbell, I. G. O’Chee, W. G. Parer, W. R. Chapman, H. G. P. Colston, M. A. Patterson, K. C. L. Payne, M. A. Crane, W. Eggleston, A. Reid, M. E. Synon, K. M. Ellison, C. Ferguson, A. B. Tambling, G. E. J. Tierney, J. Ferris, J. Gibson, B. F. Troeth, J. Vanstone, A. E. Heffernan, W. Herron, J. Watson, J. O. W. Kemp, R. Knowles, S. C. PAIRS Lightfoot, P. R. Macdonald, I. Cook, P. F. S. Hill, R. M. Macdonald, S. MacGibbon, D. J. Faulkner, J. P. Alston, R. K. R. McGauran, J. J. J. Minchin, N. H. Murphy, S. M. Coonan, H. Newman, J. M. O’Chee, W. G. * denotes teller Parer, W. R. Patterson, K. C. L. Payne, M. A. Reid, M. E. Question so resolved in the negative. Synon, K. M. Tambling, G. E. J. Tierney, J. Troeth, J. MILLENNIUM BUG: COMPLIANCE Vanstone, A. E. Watson, J. O. W. PROGRESS REPORTS PAIRS Cook, P. F. S. Boswell, R. L. D. Motion (by Senator Lundy) proposed: Evans, C. V. Alston, R. K. R. That there be laid on the table by the Minister Faulkner, J. P. Coonan, H. representing the Minister for Finance and Adminis- Murphy, S. M. Hill, R. M. tration (Senator Ellison), by the adjournment of the * denotes teller Senate on Monday, 30 November 1998, the individ- Question so resolved in the negative. ual reports and associated documents provided to the Department of Finance and Administration by Senator IAN CAMPBELL (Western each Commonwealth department and agency in Australia—Parliamentary Secretary to the relation to those departments and agencies’ ‘Y2K’ Minister for Communications, Information (millennium bug) compliance progress. Technology and the Arts) (4.00 p.m.)—I Question put. would like to table a short statement in relation to the return to order motion that has The Senate divided. [3.57 p.m.] just been defeated. 644 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

COMMITTEES and the need for integrated policies that are effective in spending public money. I seek Scrutiny of Bills Committee leave to continue my remarks later. Report Leave granted; debate adjourned. Senator COONEY (Victoria) (4.01 p.m.)— I lay on the table the Scrutiny of Bills Alert COMMITTEES Digest No. 10 of 1998 dated 25 November Regulations and Ordinances Committee 1998. Membership DOCUMENTS The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Auditor-General’s Reports (Senator Crowley)—I have received a letter from the Leader of the Australian Democrats Report No. 17 of 1998-99 nominating a senator to a committee. The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Motion (by Senator Kemp)—by leave— (Senator Crowley)—In accordance with the agreed to: provisions of the Auditor-General Act 1997, That Senator Bartlett be appointed to the Stand- I present the following report of the Auditor- ing Committee on Regulations and Ordinances. General: Report No. 17 of 1998-99— Performance Audit—Acquisition of Aerospace Reference: Taxation Package Simulators: Department of Defence. Debate resumed from 24 November, on Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) motion by Senator Lees: (4.02 p.m.) (by leave)—I move: (1) That a select committee, to be known as the That the Senate take note of the document. Select Committee on a New Tax System, be established to inquire into and report, on or I would like to draw the attention of honour- before 18 February 1999, on the economic able senators to the recommendations from theories, assumptions, calculations, projections, the Auditor-General and to the findings that estimates and modelling which underpinned there do not seem to be any actual policies the Government’s proposals for taxation reform, contained in Tax reform: not a new relating to the acquisition and use of aero- tax, a new tax system. space simulators for training when expensive (2) That, in conducting its inquiry, the committee pieces of equipment—new aircraft—are examine the following matters: ordered. (a) the estimated levels of revenue to be gener- I would like to speak on this issue at ated or foregone due to the proposed chan- greater length on a future occasion but, for ges, including the estimated level of revenue now, I will just say that it is worth looking at to be generated by imposing a goods and the report and at the fact that perhaps this is services tax (GST) on the basic necessities of life (such as food, clothing, shelter and a pattern that has been repeated in other areas essential services) and books; of the Australian Defence Force. There did not seem to be a specific policy on the acqui- (b) the effects of the proposed changes on: sition and choice of simulators, including on (i) national Gross Domestic Product, their design and specifications, and the use of (ii) national export performance and national them in training as a money saving device. debt, We are talking about billions of dollars, (iii) the national Consumer Price Index, and potentially. We are also talking about the (iv) the distribution of wealth in the Austral- availability of aircraft and amenities for ian community; communities where training aircraft are used (c) the effects of the package on future federal rather than simulators. budget revenues, expenditures and surpluses, including a critical assessment of the eco- I think it is worth while alerting honourable nomic assumptions underpinning the senators and the community to the document Treasury’s projections in this regard; because it does fit in with a lot of the con- (d) the effects of the taxation and compensation cerns people have in general about the acqui- package on disposable income and house- sition policies of the Australian Defence Force hold spending power for a range of ‘cameo Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 645

profiles’, including but not limited to those where Australia’s taxation system does not presented in the proposals, under the follow- address major tax potential, and without ing scenarios: limiting the foregoing, the consideration of (i) a GST extended to the necessities of life taxation of foreign companies operating in (such as food, clothing, shelter and essen- Australia, including the relative merits of tial services), and resource rent taxes, royalties or land taxes as compared to company tax in securing a (ii) a GST not extended to the necessities of fair compensation to Australia for use of its life (such as food, clothing, shelter and resources, whether the 150% tax concession essential services); for research and development should be (e) with the aim of identifying families and restored and whether small companies groups who may be disadvantaged by the should be allowed to be taxed as partner- Government’s proposals, focusing on lower ships. and fixed income individuals, families with (f) the potential for tax avoidance and evasion, dependent children or adult members, including an examination of the effects on groups and organisations, and those with the cash economy, and the potential impact special needs, such as people with disabili- of electronic commerce on the future via- ties; bility of a GST; (f) the assumptions made as to consumption (g) the effects on compliance costs; and saving patterns and the cost of living for the various ‘cameo profiles’; (h) the potential for reducing payroll tax, in- cluding by providing incentives to create (g) whether the stated objectives of the package long-term employment and by replacing can be met by using an alternative and payroll tax with a carbon tax; fairer approach; and (i) whether there are other means available (h) such other matters as the committee con- for rebating or reducing the indirect taxes siders fall within the scope of this inquiry. or excessive user charges embedded in (3) That the committee also inquire into and exporters costs; report, on or before 19 April 1999, on the (j) excises, including those on fuel, tobacco and broad economic effects of the Government’s alcohol—identifying the industries which taxation reform legislation proposals with benefit, and to what extent, from the pro- regard to the fairness of the tax system, the posed changes to taxes on fuels; living standards of Australian households (especially those on low incomes), the effi- (k) the effects on interest rates; ciency of the economy, and future public (l) the effects on investment, in both physical revenues, including: and human capital formation; (a) the effects on equity, efficiency and compli- (m) the effects on small business; ance costs of including, or not including, food or other necessities of life in the GST, (n) the effects on the non-profit sector, includ- together with any related adjustments to the ing the total amounts of money contributed package if food or other necessities of life by the sector, administrative costs, impacts were GST zero-rated; on the viability of the organisations, and the consequent effects on the wellbeing of the (b) the effectiveness of the package in easing community; the poverty traps facing people on low incomes, and reforming and streamlining tax (o) the effects of the GST on particular indus- and income support for families with chil- tries, including: dren, taking into account the static and life- (i) key service industries such as tourism, cycle impacts on families with children; (ii) the Australian automobile and related (c) options for amending the income tax sched- industries, having particular regard to the ule to make it more equitable; effects of changes to fuel excises, (d) the findings of the Tax Consultative Com- (iii) other ‘invisible’ export industries, such as mittee chaired by David Vos; education and financial services, and (e) options for improving the effectiveness and (iv) the international competitiveness general- fairness of the tax system and reducing ly of Australian industries; inequitable or unreasonable tax avoidance and minimisation, including consideration of (p) the implications of not requiring that the alternative areas for tax generation, either GST component of goods and services be where there are current tax concessions or itemised on receipts; 646 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

(q) the effects of the taxation reform legislation (viii) the extent to which the proposed com- proposals on rural and regional stakeholders, pensation arrangements are secure from including: change to below adequate levels; (i) the effects on particular regions, (s) the adequacy of measures to ensure that consumers fully benefit from the abolition (ii) the effects on rural and regional commu- of existing taxes; nities of different tax regimes on fuel— especially the cost of transport of goods (t) the effects of the taxation reform legislation to rural communities, proposals on legal and constitutional mat- ters, including: (iii) the effects on primary industry of replac- ing the current sales tax exemption on (i) the constitutionality of the proposed agricultural machinery with a GST, and mechanism for future changes to the GST, including whether such changes (iv) the effects of imposing a GST on food would present a significant hurdle to and other necessities of life on remote future increases, or reductions if deemed communities, including Aboriginal and necessary to stimulate the economy, Islander communities; (ii) the constitutionality of the proposed (r) the effects of the Government’s taxation reorganisation of federal-state tax arrange- reform legislation proposals on state and ments and whether the powers and func- local government administration, including: tions of states and territories are material- (i) the effects of the package on future ly affected by this reorganisation, and federal-state financial relations and the (iii) the effects of the proposals on the cost of capacities of state and local governments access to justice; and to adequately finance their respective responsibilities in both the short-term and (u) options for amending the proposed legisla- the long-term, including the effects of the tion to improve its fairness or efficiency. proposed transfer of responsibility for (4) That, in reporting on the matters referred to in local government financial assistance to paragraph (3), the committee have regard to the states, and whether it discriminates the reports of the references committees between states, referred to in paragraph (17) and integrate the (ii) the implications for specific purpose findings of those committees into its final programs, report where relevant. (5) That the committee consist of 7 senators, 3 (iii) mechanisms required to lock in commit- nominated by the Leader of the Government ments made by federal and state govern- in the Senate, 3 nominated by the Leader of ments with regard to the new arrange- the Opposition in the Senate, and 1 nominated ments, by the Leader of the Australian Democrats. (iv) the implications for future federal-state (6) That the committee may proceed to the dis- financial relations of not extending the patch of business notwithstanding that not all GST to the necessities of life (such as members have been duly nominated and food, clothing, shelter and essential ser- appointed and notwithstanding any vacancy. vices) and books, and any adjustments to the proposed arrangements which would (7) That: be required to federal-state financial (a) senators may be appointed to the committee relations, as substitutes for members of the committee (v) the implications of the package for the in respect of particular matters before the quality and affordability of public utility committee; services and for the public utility conces- (b) on the nominations of the Greens or inde- sions for social security recipients, pendent senators, participating members (vi) the effects of application of the GST, and may be appointed to the committee; and of changes to tax status, on local govern- (c) participating members may participate in ment and its activities, particularly com- hearings of evidence and deliberations of mercial activities, the committee, and have all the rights of (vii) the implications for the delivery of members of the committee, but may not Commonwealth Government services, vote on any questions before the committee. including employment services, welfare (8) That the committee shall elect as its chair a and other social and cultural services, member nominated by the Leader of the and Opposition in the Senate. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 647

(9) That the committee shall elect as its deputy (15) That the committee be provided with all chair, immediately after the election of the necessary staff, facilities and resources and chair, a member nominated by the Leader of be empowered to appoint persons with the Government in the Senate. specialist knowledge for the purposes of the (10) That the deputy chair act as chair when committee with the approval of the Presi- there is no chair or the chair is not present dent. at a meeting. (16) That the committee be empowered to print (11) That the committee have power to send for from day to day such documents and evi- and examine persons and documents, to dence as may be ordered by it and a daily move from place to place, to sit in public or Hansard be published of such proceedings in private, notwithstanding any prorogation as take place in public. of the Parliament or dissolution of the House of Representatives, and have leave to (17) That the following matters be referred to report from time to time its proceedings and references committees in accordance with the evidence taken and such interim recom- the schedule below for inquiry and report by mendations as it may deem fit. 31 March 1999, and that in undertaking these inquiries the committees have regard (12) The quorum of the committee shall be a to the report of the Select Committee re- majority of the members of the committee. ferred to in paragraph (1) and consult wide- (13) The committee set 29 January 1999 as the ly, holding hearings in each state and terri- date for receipt of submissions. tory, as required. Submissions to these (14) That the committee hold hearings in each inquiries are to be made by 29 January state and territory as required. 1999.

Committee Matters for Inquiry Community Affairs The impacts of the Government’s taxation reform legislation proposals on the living standards of Australian households (especially those on low incomes), including: (a) the scope and effectiveness of the proposed arrangements on charities, child care services, aged care services, welfare services, local govern- ment human services and all not-for-profit organisations in maintaining the quality and affordability of essential community services, including the implications for the public funding of these services and the implications for the commercial activities of these organisations, and whether unconditional GST-free status should apply to bona fide charities; (b) a detailed examination of the zero-rating of health services, including an examination of which services should be zero-rated; (c) the effects on community sector organisations of changes to their tax exempt status, and of the compliance costs of the proposed tax ar- rangements; (d) the effects of the proposed private health insurance rebate; (e) the effects on people with disabilities; (f) the effects on public, community and private housing, including the levels of rents; and (g) options for amendments to improve the fairness or efficiency of the proposed legislation. Employment, Workplace The employment incentive and education impacts of the Government’s Relations, Small Busi- taxation reform legislation proposals, including: ness and Education (a) the scope and effectiveness of the proposed zero-rating arrangements for education in maintaining its quality, accessibility and affordability; (b) the effects on employment; 648 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

Committee Matters for Inquiry (c) the effects of the proposed GST treatment on the quality, accessibility and affordability of employment services; (d) the effects on education of imposing a GST on, or zero-rating or exempting books and associated education resources; (e) the effects on education of imposing a GST on ancillary resources, services and commercial activities, including the effects on overseas students; (f) the effects of the proposed changes to the tax system on employment; (g) the effects on wage costs, particularly if the basic necessities of life are taxed; (h) the scope and effectiveness of changing the unemployment benefits, pensions and Newstart Allowance ‘tapers’; (i) the effects of the proposed changes to the tax system on training and adult education; and (j) options for amendments to improve the fairness or efficiency of the proposed legislation. Environment, Communi- The broad effects of the Government’s taxation reform legislation propo- cations, Information sals on the environment, the arts and information technology, including: Technology and the Arts (a) the environmental effects, and likely impacts of changes to fuel excises, particularly but not only diesel, and the replacement of WST with GST on vehicles and other transport services including: (i) possible increases in greenhouse gas emissions, (ii) increases by amount and type of air pollution, (iii) the effects on public and rail transport, (iv) the effects on alternative energy use in transport including, but not limited to, compressed natural gas, (v) the changed effects on native forests of logging or woodchipping due to the tax package, and (vi) the changed effects of mining in environmentally sensitive areas due to the tax package; (b) the environmental effects of the replacement of Wholesale Sales Tax by the GST and associated changes in fuel excises on electricity and natural gas; (c) the impacts of the proposed tax changes on the prices and existing and potential use of renewable energy particularly but not only solar energy technology and energy efficiency equipment; (d) the environmental effects of any changes to taxes on exports; (e) the consistency or otherwise of the proposed changes in taxation and excise arrangements with Australia’s international treaty obligations, including its obligations under the Framework Convention on Climate Change; (f) options for a tax system which better achieve environmental objec- tives,including incentives for fuel efficiency and alternative energy sources, such as measures which promote both environmental protec- tion and employment generation; (g) the extent to which environmental impacts were considered in the drafting and final copy of the Government’s tax package; Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 649

Committee Matters for Inquiry (h) the scope of any consultation on environmental matters with experts in Environment Australia or any other Government departments other than the Treasury and Finance departments; (i) the impact of a GST on ticket sales for the performing arts; (j) the effects of a GST on the transfer of grant monies for arts projects; (k) the effects of the tax proposals on sponsorship provided by the private sector to individual artists and arts organisations; (l) the extent to which the package will block consideration and introduc- tion of ‘ecotaxes’; (m) the effects of a GST on not-for-profit conservation and arts organisa- tions; and (n) options for improving the environmental effects of the package.

(18) That the provisions of the bills implement- (iii) the impact on services provided by non- ing the proposed new tax system stand referred to government organisations such as chari- the previously mentioned committees for inquiry ties, and report in conjunction with the terms of refer- (iv) the effects on low and middle income ence authorised by this resolution, as soon as the families of taxing the necessities of life, bills have been introduced in the House of Repre- sentatives. (v) the effect of the proposed goods and services tax (GST) and other items of the (19) That when the bills referred to in paragraph Coalition tax package on wage costs, and (18) are first introduced in the Senate and a motion is moved for the second reading of the bills, debate (vi) the estimated levels of revenue to be on that motion shall be adjourned at the conclusion generated or foregone due to the proposed of the speech of the senator moving the motion and changes, including the estimated level of resumption of the debate shall be made an order of revenue to be generated by imposing a the day for 19 April 1999 without any question GST on food and books; being put. (c) the effect that the proposals would, if imple- mented, have on the Australian economy, upon which Senator Faulkner had moved by including but not limited to the effects on: way of an amendment: (i) employment, Omit all words after "That", substitute: (ii) inflation, (1) The following matters be referred to the (iii) interest rates, Economics References Committee for inquiry and report on or before the last sitting day in (iv) economic growth, May 1999 and that in undertaking this inquiry (v) exports, imports, trade and foreign debt, the committee consult widely, holding hearings (vi) investment, in all states and territories: (vii) specific regions, including remote com- (a) the measures announced in the document munities, Tax reform: not a new tax, a new tax system (viii) particular industries, including key service and the provisions of any bills implementing industries and small business, and the measures; (ix) the cash economy; (b) the assumptions, calculations, estimates, projections and modelling concerning the (d) the adequacy of measures designed to various proposals either separately or jointly ensure that the GST will never rise above including, but not limited to: 10 per cent; (e) the adequacy of measures to ensure that 1(i) the distribution of wealth in the Austral- consumers fully benefit from the abolition ian community, including the distribution- of existing taxes; al impact on different household types, (f) the detail of items under consideration to be (ii) the adequacy of the so-called compen- listed as ‘GST free’, including medical sation measures proposed and the possible items, education and exports (including erosion or withdrawal of compensation, service exports such as tourism); 650 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

(g) the findings of the Tax Consultative Com- was to have a look at it and take our time mittee chaired by Mr David Vos; with it to be sure that we got it right and that (h) the implications for the delivery of in its entirety all those details did encompass Commonwealth Government services, the field. including employment services, welfare and other social and cultural services; We have had a look at this overnight. As (i) the implications for the various state and best I can judge—I can only speak for myself territory governments of the proposals, in this—it is comprehensive and I cannot including federal-state financial relations think of a particular area that is omitted. The and the potential impact on the provision of concern I have—I express this now so that it services by those governments; is on the record, and in the hope that I do not (j) the implications for local government; have to return to it or refer back to it but so (k) the effect that the proposals would, if imple- that it is there as an attitudinal approach to mented, have on the environment; the inquiry that I suspect we are about to (l) the implications of not requiring that the embark on—is that when one writes a series GST component of goods and services be of particularly detailed terms of reference, if itemised on receipts; something then arises which is not expressly (m) alternative taxation measures available to covered by that detail, one could get into a the Government, including options for procedural argument as to whether it was reducing tax avoidance and evasion; and meant to be inquired into or not. (n) all matters relevant or incidental to con- sideration of the above issues. I believe that the spirit of these terms of reference coming before the Senate is to have (2) The event that matters related to these terms of reference are referred to other references a complete inquiry into the GST, and that the committees, the Economics References Com- terms of reference are to point that inquiry to mittee shall take into account the reports of the hot topics and subjects that obviously any such committees in completing its own make up a complete inquiry. Therefore, if report on this reference something comes up which is not precisely Senator COOK (Western Australia— and pedantically related to those terms of Deputy Leader of the Opposition in the references but falls within the scope of what Senate) (4.05 p.m.)—I think I was in continu- a decent full-blown inquiry should look at, we ation last night when the clock overtook us are not going to get into a bickering argument and this debate was adjourned. I opened my on point scoring or on how many angels can remarks to the Senate by noting the comments dance on the head of a pin about whether or from Senator Harradine, who had spoken just not that particular thing is going to be includ- prior to the call coming to me. He made the ed and considered by the inquiry. I say that point repeatedly, and I think with some bearing in mind that it ought to be related to considerable force, that the terms of reference the inquiry and its broad scope. I am not of this inquiry are very wide indeed. I think talking here about issues that might not be it is right to observe that as a statement that and are dragged in as red herrings. I make is true. The terms of reference run to many that point, but I don’t want to be caught into pages and cover, I think, all the subjects that a debate in the field that I have referred to. I can bring to mind as to what this inquiry This looks like the mother of all inquiries. should be about. It is an inquiry that I think is an opportunity One of the hardest acts of analysis to for ordinary Australians to make their voices undertake is to be confronted with a quite heard in the Senate chamber about the comprehensive list of subjects and have the government’s proposals for a GST. It is an question posed, ‘Well, what is left out?’ If inquiry in which Australians can make a you look at the comprehensive list of subjects, difference. They need to put their views it is hard to think of the one that is missing, forward. Fifty-two per cent of the electorate if there is one. What the Labor Party wanted voted for parties opposed to the GST and 48 to do, given that this document in its compre- per cent voted for parties on the government hensive nature had just been put before us, side of the chamber. Many of that 52 per cent Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 651 of Australians may not belong to organi- nomic issues, submissions close on 29 Janu- sations who have got well-paid publicists or ary and it must report by 18 February. It has are in a key position in the economy to put got 14 working days to consider the major their points of view powerfully, but it is economic arguments and to take evidence on important that ordinary Australians seize this those. opportunity, step forward and make their I want to observe that that is a very short views heard. It is important that this inquiry time, given the immensity of this task, be- be comprehensive and complete, and it is cause these are complex technical issues. important too that when Australia speaks in These are not simple matters, they are not the Senate through this inquiry the govern- matters of assertion or contention; they are ment listens. That is very important. matters of study, and they are quite detailed I will mention some of my concerns about and quite technical. That is an immense the structure of the inquiry, though I suspect obligation to impose on a committee at any that at the end of the day I will vote for the time. In addition to that obligation, this full package. This inquiry is an immense task committee during that period of 14 working and it is working to a very tight timetable. days has to direct its attention specifically to The pictorial flow chart of the inquiry, if I six clauses and a further six subclauses—12 can represent it orally, consists of the select particular provisions overall. So I make the committee taking general economic argument, point now, and mark the spot as I do so, that the assumptions and the underlying theory, this is an immense task, wide ranging, com- looking at the tables and so forth about the plex and technical, to be executed in a very macro-economic effect of this tax and what short time indeed. the basis might be for proceeding down that When the select committee turns its atten- course. Then the references committees, tion to its final report, it has to consider the divided into their three specific areas, will be conclusions of the three references commit- looking into those specific areas based on a tees, which will be available by 31 March. report of the select committee on the heads of Then by 19 April it has to complete its economic concerns or interests about this consideration. In completing its consideration, issue. Then again the select committee will be bearing in mind the conclusions of those accepting submissions widely from the com- detailed reports from those three specialist munity, taking into account what the various committees, it has got 21 specific clauses references committees might say in their which have a further 19 subclauses, making specialist areas and framing an overarching up a series of 40 particular provisions that it report to the Senate. That is the flow: a has got to consider as well. It has also got to general inquiry on foundation economic consider all of the submissions that Australian issues; specialist inquiries while a general organisations and individuals might bring inquiry continues; and a final report from the forth. select committee. It has 53 working days to do that in. It has It is an awkward process. I am not saying to do it while it visits all states and both it is not a reasonable process but I think one territories, and while it visits regional Austral- can concede that it is awkward in its style. A ia as well. It has to do it in such a way that great deal needs to be taken into account in the orchestration of the flow of information within a very short time, because this inquiry there is due, proper and weighty consideration will have the submissions closing at the end by the participants in this inquiry. If we of January, with a first report by 18 February, weigh this inquiry down under reams of thus enabling the specialist references com- material which cannot be humanly processed mittees to proceed, and then a final report by in the time, then the conclusions of this the select committee on submissions by 19 inquiry will be defective to the extent that it April. Looking at the document, that means cannot address its workload. that for the first part of the inquiry, the select The other observation I make is that for the committee inquiry into the underlying eco- first part of this inquiry, the highly technical 652 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 and complex area of the macro-economic because we will need the cooperation of some assumptions and so forth, if we give notice of the organs of government and particularly this weekend in the national media calling for some of the organs of government that the submissions then it is between now and 29 Assistant Treasurer represents in this cham- January that submissions will be prepared. ber—namely the Treasury, which has done a Where does one go for advice and informa- lot of the work in preparing the government’s tion in that area? An obvious place is aca- pitch for a GST to the electorate. We will demia. Academia will be in Christmas recess want access to them and we will want a free for most of that time. That may free up flow of information from them in order to individual academics to spend their Christmas fairly review the literature, to compare it with break writing submissions for this inquiry. It criticisms and to look at the underlying may mean that others have made family assumptions properly. arrangements, even at this point. It may mean We may also need access to other organs of that, during the early days of January, it will government. One of those may be the Tax- be very difficult to get access to campus ation Office itself when we come to technical based computations about economic model- questions about how tax revenue is collected ling and so forth. I make the point that there and the efficient ways of doing so; issues of are obstructions, by virtue of it falling across avoidance and magnitude of avoidance in the period of the festive season, that would several areas; and what they might know not normally be considered as difficulties. about international comparisons of the size of I make all of these points to arrive at this the black economy in countries where there conclusion, which I think is a fair and reason- is a GST and in countries like Australia able conclusion and one that ought to be where, fortunately at the moment, there is not. mentioned: we have an immense task. We I put those observations and reservations on have a short time to do it. We have a com- the record now so that later it cannot be said plex series of hurdles to surmount in order to that we never raised them. If this motion is achieve it. It is expected that our conclusions carried, our intention is to be conscientious will be influential in the end and therefore about discharging this inquiry in a fully they must be properly considered and given efficient way and to complete the reference, due weight when they are delivered. The as handed to the committee from the Senate, timetable to achieve all of that is incredibly in a way in which the electors of Australia short, but the only way one can approach this would be proud to see the machinery of this task is to try to get it done within the time- chamber acting positively in the national table. interest. The Labor Party argued for a much longer Amendment (Senator Faulkner’s) not timetable, one in which it would be more agreed to. reasonable to be able to complete this work. Amendment (by Senator Kemp) agreed to: The agreement between the government and At the end of the motion, add the following the Democrats is an agreement not to give us paragraph: a reasonable amount of time to complete that That the days of meeting for the Senate for the work, but to truncate the time. I do not first half of 1999 be as follows: criticise the Democrats for that because I Monday, 15 February to Thursday, 18 February know that that was not their original position. Monday, 8 March to Thursday, 11 March It may be that, in the negotiations, they were Monday, 22 March to Thursday, 25 March pushed back to that. But I do ask the Assist- Monday, 29 March to Wednesday, 31 March ant Treasurer sitting opposite that he please Monday, 19 April to Friday, 23 April note the points I have made. Tuesday, 27 April to Friday, 30 April Tuesday, 11 May to Thursday, 13 May Senator Kemp—I always do. Monday, 24 May to Thursday, 27 May Senator COOK—Thank you, Mr Assistant Monday, 21 June to Thursday, 24 June Treasurer. I also ask that he be sympathetic to Monday, 28 June to Wednesday, 30 June. our needs as we try to complete this inquiry, Motion, as amended, agreed to. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 653

NOTICES else. A great many people in the world— those people who knew about it—were out- Withdrawal raged that those who conducted the launch Senator KEMP (Victoria—Assistant took that risk on behalf of everyone else. Treasurer) (4.22 p.m.)—I withdraw business of the Senate notice of motion No. 1. Space is considered to be the final frontier. We hear of space exploration, space tourism, (Quorum formed) women and men travelling to distant galaxies SPACE ACTIVITIES BILL 1998 and great adventures in space. However far into the future these visions might be, I think Second Reading we can be quite confident that it will not be Debate resumed. the Space Activities Bill 1998 that provides the framework or legislative basis for them. Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) To be quite fair, this is not the intention of (4.25 p.m.)—I rise to speak on this important the bill. The intent of this bill is much more Space Activities Bill 1998. We are dealing mundane: it is to provide a framework for the with issues of legislation of space activities, commercial exploitation of whatever advan- and it seems that it may well have been tages Australia may have in the lucrative brought on by recent commercial activities, business of launching what the bill somewhat including those mentioned by Senator Crossin quaintly calls space objects and providing in relation to Christmas Island. They are not them with a place to land. Ironically, the bill issues about what happens in space activities; does not concern itself with what those space they are about the launches. Unfortunately, objects do when they are up there. It is about we have seen in recent years that the issues licensing the places from which they are and concerns in relation to space activities are launched and issuing permits for the objects, not just about launches—although launches including both the launch vehicles and their are important because, as we found from the contents. Christmas Island example, we are dealing with superheated steam in a fragile national In speaking about the bill today, I will park environment. We are also talking about address issues not covered by the bill and dangerous materials that could be jettisoned some of the many issues that are raised by the through the process, and we are talking about bill itself. We believe there is a need for processes that need to be carefully monitored. community debate on the future in space. But in particular we are also talking about Since the launch in 1957 of the world’s first the range of activities that could occur in the satellite, Sputnik—a small ball sending out future—about what actually happens in space, regular beeps—through the massive US space what is taken into that environment and what program of the 1960s, culminating in the the responsibilities are. We only have to look moon mission of 1969, and the recent series as far as the 1997 Cassini probe to see the of space shuttle missions that have attracted assumption that whoever launches the particu- so much attention—and perhaps the first case lar satellite can take responsibility for the rest of space tourism—the range of technological of the world. We had extreme concern in possibilities has expanded at an enormous 1997 about the launch of the Cassini probe rate, so much so that we have spacecraft and its 33-odd kilograms of plutonium. The successfully travelling to Mars, Jupiter and launch could have gone wrong—and of beyond. Enormous amounts of resources have course launches have gone wrong; there have been expended on these efforts with very little been problems in the blast-off stage in the debate on the real issues of what it means for past—and could have put at risk some five the long-term future. billion of the world’s population of seven So what is the purpose of space explor- billion. That risk was not shared with the rest ation? Is it an extension of the Christopher of the world; they were not taken into con- Columbus mentality—discovery to open up sideration. Those people who conducted the the way to exploitation of previously un- launch took the risk on behalf of everyone tapped resources, perhaps? Can we actually be 654 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 trusted in space when we do such a poor job been made for the construction and operation of sustainably using and equitably distributing of the launch facility goes some way to resources here on earth? Are there inalienable resolving that, but we would prefer to see the rights for aliens? Or can we create a culture particular environmental laws specified. in space which does not repeat the errors of Launch sites are, by their nature, most the past—greed and exploitation, territorial likely to be in relatively isolated areas, but acquisition and colonisation? this does not reduce the need for strict envi- This bill does not provide the opportunity ronmental control. There are other issues of for that debate, but it is one we should have indigenous rights, as we saw with the propo- in Australia—and we should have it soon. sal for a launch site at Cape York. Why so soon? Debate on the hypothetical We know that Christmas Island is con- issues of space will help us to clearly focus sidered by many to be a remote site, but it is on some of the recent and contemporary also the site for very important bird and issues which get lost in the messy business of terrestrial life. It has flora and fauna that do political partisanship, pragmatism, trade-offs not exist anywhere else on the planet. There- and deals. fore, we cannot afford to be blase about some It might help us to think afresh about some of those environmental consequences if there of the mistakes we have made in our recent is to be jettisoned material that can cause past—such things as the perpetuation of damage to those environments, or even noise colonialism; dispossession and denial of rights or superheated steam that will impact on the exemplified in the Native Title Act; destruc- breeding activities of local animals or birds. tion of our forests by the vandals in the forest We need to look at other issues, including industry, or our failure to take a stronger the need for strict environmental control and stance on the elimination of nuclear weapons. indigenous rights, as we saw with the propo- In the absence of such a hypothetical debate sal for a launch site at Cape York, which is I will turn to the particular bill we have to now supposedly in limbo. We would prefer consider. The first thing to be said is that it no, never. Cape York raised the issue of a is more about what happens here on the need for land rights legislation to empower ground in Australia than about what happens Aboriginal people to deal effectively with in space. It licences sites for the commercial major proposals. The Native Title Act does launch of satellites and provides for permits not do that, but it is important for Aboriginal for the launch vehicles to get them into space. people in the vicinity of these projects to have The sites for these launches are to be private- their interests protected. Perhaps the opposi- ly owned and operated. That does not mean tion might extend their amendment to refer to to say people will be able to control where the relevant Aboriginal legislation as well as the bits of space vehicles will land. to environmental legislation. This licensing of privately owned and The same company that was involved in the operated sites in itself raises cause for con- Cape York proposal, International Resource cern. We are familiar with inherent conflict Corporation, has shifted its attention to Christ- between commercial interests and safety and mas Island. The intention is to launch be- environmental protection. Maybe in Western tween 12 and 46 Globalstar mobile satellites Australia we will end up with a state agree- there, using Soyuz rockets, with some poten- ment act should we have one actually in tial problems with the technology. It is, as I Western Australia. mentioned, an extremely important local Let us look at some examples. The bill as environment. I have to declare my interest originally introduced had no process for here. I have a great deal of admiration for environmental protection. We had serious Christmas Island. I have a small flat on concerns about that. The Labor amendment Christmas Island because I like it so much, that the minister be satisfied that all necessary though I hardly ever get there. environmental approvals have been obtained Basically it is a very important environ- and that an adequate environmental plan has ment. The process of developing an environ- Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 655 mental assessment is now under way and, whole Star Wars strategy that many of us hopefully, it will provide answers as to just found totally abhorrent. what is proposed, what its effect will be on The US General Accounting Office reported people and the environment, and what will be last year that the US military would spend done in the design, construction and manage- $US7.8 billion on upgrading its defence ment of the project to reduce the effect on the systems communications satellites and leasing people and environment of Christmas Island. time from commercial suppliers. Is this I understand that there is already agreement beginning to ring bells? No wonder there is between the Commonwealth and a private such demand for launch facilities with that company for the launch site at Woomera—the sort of budget driving the industry. It could be Kistler project. I wonder what environmental that the US military or other military will, in and Aboriginal issues have been addressed, the future, buy time from launching facilities and remain to be addressed, in relation to that in Australia. project. The difficulty for us is to know how such The bill, we should note, excludes deals satellites, launched from Australia, are being done before 11 November this year. Kistler used and will be used in future. The legisla- has done a deal at Woomera, and the Interna- tion gives the power to permit a launch and tional Resource Corporation project at Christ- the minister can take into account the payload mas Island was announced by the government in deciding whether or not to grant the in March 1998. How will they be regulated? licence. But it does not allow the minister any We do not know from this bill. How will we say in the use of the satellites once they are know when the contracts are, in fact, commer- launched. This is a very dangerous omission cial-in-confidence? as far as we are concerned. The legislation Then there is the proposed project on an goes only to the launch period and does not island off the coast of Gladstone in Queens- cover what happens with the satellites while land, about which it seems to be very hard to they are in orbit. get any information at all. Perhaps the This is a major problem. Communication minister might like to tell us more about what satellites are able to be used for any com- is proposed there, and particularly if military munication and the nature of that can change payloads are involved. to military use at any time. But that does not Let us look at the granting of launch per- mean it cannot be controlled by legislation. mits. This bill is about the commercial launch Time is leased on satellites with clients whose of commercial payloads into space. It is good purpose is known. There should be provision that nuclear weapons and weapons of mass for the exclusion of whole ranges of activities destruction are excluded from those things which have the potential to contribute to the allowed to be launched, but why stop at growth of militarism or to harm regional nuclear weapons? Why are we allowing peace and security. weapons of any kind in space? We have no Fissionable materials can be sent into space enemies in space. We do not want space used under this legislation. Even with the ALP to threaten imaginary or real enemies here on amendment, this can still happen. A require- earth either. ment for permission from the minister does This is not entirely a hypothetical issue. not impress me at all. One approach may be Billions of dollars were expended on the US a ban on all radioactive material with exemp- Star Wars program before it was finally tions spelt out in regulations for small quanti- conceded it was a waste of money. Neverthe- ties of specific types of isotopes. The idea less, there are no shortages of military minds that material capable of causing enormous still harbouring illusions about deploying such harm in the event of an accident—the indus- weapons. Australia should ensure that try has had plenty of major accidents—could Australia’s laws do not allow such things to be included in the fuel or the payload of be launched from here. Please recall that launch vehicles launched from Australia or Australia was a very important element of the allowed to return to earth on Australian soil 656 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 is one that would be opposed by the vast So there does need to be a lot more work majority of Australians, and rightly so, as was done on this bill. Unfortunately, the indica- the Cassini probe, by just about everyone who tions have not been strong so far that the ever heard about it. government is listening to these concerns. People were outraged. They could not Senator MINCHIN (South Australia— believe that such a thing was proposed, yet it Minister for Industry, Science and Resources) happened. It really did happen. People should (4.42 p.m.)—I thank all speakers for their thank whoever they pray to that that launch contribution to the debate on the Space did not go wrong. That it could come about Activities Bill 1998. I welcome the as a result, for example, of a request from the opposition’s support for this bill. I note the United States to allow a return to earth of one concerns that have been raised by the Austral- of its interplanetary missions begs the ques- ian Democrats and the Greens and I think it tion of why they do not want it to come down appropriate that we deal with them at the in their own back yard. committee stage. With that, I conclude my second reading contribution. We also have a number of serious concerns Question resolved in the affirmative. about other aspects of the bill, from the nature of the standard launch conditions to the role Bill read a second time. and independence of the launch safety offic- Ordered that consideration of the bill in ers. We want to see further extension of the committee of the whole be made an order of administrative review provisions for a review the day for a later hour. of ministerial decisions, especially any deci- sion to instruct a launch safety officer. We MIGRATION LEGISLATION believe that a launch safety officer should be AMENDMENT (STRENGTHENING OF available in every launch safety facility, but PROVISIONS RELATING TO it seems they are to be shared amongst the CHARACTER AND CONDUCT) BILL various potential sites in Australia. 1998 These matters are ones about which we will Second Reading be proposing some amendments, but the issue Debate resumed from 23 November, on of most concern about this bill is the space motion by Senator Kemp: activities it does not cover. It does not cover the uses of space objects after the 30-day That this bill be now read a second time. launch period. It does not even put in place Senator COONEY (Victoria) (4.43 p.m.)— adequate coverage for liability in the event of I am part-way through my speech on the an accident or the inadvertent return to earth Migration Legislation Amendment (Strength- of Australian space objects after the launch ening of Provisions relating to Character and period. Conduct) Bill 1998. To recapitulate, this is a bill which, according to the second reading Yes, we need legislation to ensure the speech, does certain things. I will quote from safety and protection of the environment the second reading speech as it sets it in associated with space activity, but it needs to context. go further. It needs to set an example in the spirit of our internal commitment to the In a world of rapidly increasing people movements, our immigration arrangements must be designed to peaceful uses of space by going much further streamline the entry and stay of all genuine visitors, than this bill does in outlawing weapons in students, business people and permanent residents. space and the use of space for military and However, a small proportion of non-citizens military intelligence purposes—for Australia seeking to enter Australia do have substantial not to be involved, inadvertently or otherwise, criminal backgrounds or criminal associations. in putting very dangerous material into the Others commit crimes while they are in Australia. atmosphere, or likely to be causing harm if an What this bill does is to so change the law accident occurs to very many people not that those people can be dealt with more covered under this agreement. expeditiously than is presently the case. The Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 657 proposition that I put seems clear. I said the ers that proposition because it removes, in other night, and I say again now, that there certain instances, the ability of courts to are dangers in this legislation in so far as it review decisions. reflects an attitude towards immigration and migration legislation that needs to be watched. There is concern that this bill represents an unfortunate trend in migration law. I note, for Very few people are going to be affected by example, a report in the Age last weekend of this legislation. Some of them, in the past, a speech to the Federation of Ethnic who would have been caught by this legisla- Communities’ Council by the Prime Minister tion—if it had then been operative—would in which he said we have to toughen up on have been banned not so much because of migration law. He said, as the paper reports, criminal associations or of criminal acts but, that: in reality, because of what they represented or because of the particular philosophy they had . . . there was a need to balance integrity and adopted. At all times, no matter what the compassion in the migration program. legislation, we should be very hesitant about taking an approach in Australia that would Everybody would agree with that, but what do come down upon us and affect, either directly you mean by integrity? Does that mean that or indirectly, those civil rights and civil you are going to apply the law in a way that liberties that we enjoy. comes down too harshly? I will quote from a decision of a justice of Remember that our Human Rights and the Supreme Court of the United States of Equal Opportunity Commission Act contains some time ago who was dealing with a case provisions, as a schedule, which say that that concerned the Communist Party, a party everybody, no matter who they are, should be not popular in the United States then or now. treated with humanity and should be treated He had this to say in his judgment, which I equally. If, in this legislation, we are going to think is worth quoting here today: choose certain people that we are going to move against in an unfair way, then we have I do not believe that it can be too often repeated that the freedoms of speech, press, petition and something to worry about. (Extension of time assembly guaranteed by the First Amendment must granted) I think there is a need for a change be accorded to the ideas we hate or sooner or later in the culture of the administration and they will be denied to the ideas we cherish. perhaps the legislative underpinning of our In so far as this bill will be directed against migration law. people who fit within its terms, but who are As I said the other night, the minister who not being banned because of their criminal heads this legislation is a person who is noted conduct but rather because of their thoughts for his fairness and for his dedication to civil and what they represent, then there is danger. liberties. He is a member of Amnesty Interna- The tests that will be applied include tests tional and has been for years, so what I am that depend for their validity on decisions saying now is not an attack on the minister. made by courts overseas which are not as full It is an attack on the system and the culture of integrity and fairness as our courts in that seems to have entered the migration area Australia. So, although this proposed act may at this stage. We had the spectacle, and I use seem a reasonable piece of legislation, there the word advisedly, of a person from Somalia are dangers in it. being returned to that country. That person The other issue that I raised the other night, was not a refugee within the strict terms of and that I raise again now, is that of due the provisions of the Geneva Convention but, process. If anybody is to be thrown out of the nevertheless, was a person who deserved country, if anybody is to have their reputation compassion from this country, which is a besmirched, if anybody is to have action compassionate country, and from the minister, taken against them, that should be done only who is a compassionate minister. I will finish after the facts have been ascertained to a with those few remarks, and I am indebted to reasonable degree of proof. This bill endang- the chamber. 658 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT various agencies. So basically it provides a lot (Senator Crowley)—I think the chamber is more power and discretion to the minister. also indebted to you, Senator Cooney. The approach that I have taken since taking Senator BARTLETT (Queensland) (4.53 responsibility for the Democrats in the area of p.m.)—I am indebted to Senator Cooney for immigration is to try to work constructively enlightening us on this occasion even more with the government and with the minister, than usual. We are addressing the second who I believe—as Senator Cooney said a reading stage of the Migration Legislation number of times—is someone who tries to Amendment (Strengthening of Provisions approach what everyone agrees is a very relating to Character and Conduct) Bill. As difficult area from as humane a perspective as Senator Cooney said in his contribution then possible. We recognise that there are difficul- and also, I think, in the first stage of his ties in terms of the ability of the minister and contribution a day or two ago, whilst a lot of the department to adequately address some of this bill obviously seeks to make some con- the issues that they are confronted with in crete changes, many of the concerns the relation to people applying for or holding Democrats have about it actually relate to the various visas. We are happy to try and work culture that it promotes and the message that constructively with the government in all sorts it sends out to the general community. of areas to address the real problems, but of The issue of immigration and the perception course the issue in this as with many issues— and rhetoric around the motivation of but perhaps this more than most—is one of migrants or potential migrants is one that has ensuring that we do not unfairly restrict the been in the news and in public debate a lot in rights of genuine or what one might call the last couple of years, often in a negative innocent people in the process of trying to way and a very misleading way. It is for that catch the non-genuine or non-innocent, if you reason that I think we need to be very careful like. That is always a concern, and I think it about the messages that we send out to the is an issue here. community about the intentions and the The Democrats accept that Australia has a motivation of most potential migrants—there right to monitor and restrict the entry of has been a lot of scapegoating and a lot of persons who are of what might be called bad repeating of myths about migrants or potential character, and we do support the implementa- migrants attempting to rort the system. tion of workable provisions to protect Austral- Whether it is refugees or people wanting to ians from so-called undesirable or obviously enter the country for various reasons, the dangerous entrants. Obviously, the govern- Democrats are concerned about the potential ment does have a responsibility to protect for a continuation of the momentum, if you residents of Australia—anybody in Australia, like, towards more of a negative culture, more residents or tourists or whatever—from people of a non-accepting and non-inclusive culture who are potentially dangerous. But we do in relation to how we perceive potential believe that such provisions must be suffi- migrants and people entering the country. ciently flexible to be applicable in a wide This bill makes a number of changes which range of circumstances, not pigeonhole people have the effect of giving the minister more too severely and must be firmly founded on power, discretion and influence over granting principles which include many of those that or refusing visas on the grounds of character. Senator Cooney elaborated on: compassion, It reverses the onus of proof in relation to empathy and natural justice. character. It limits the time for the process of We do have concerns about the direction of review by the AAT, albeit by a less severe attitudes and the culture, as Senator Cooney limitation than was originally intended when mentioned, in relation to immigration in this bill was first tabled in the previous recent years. Probably the one that is most parliament. It provides protection from dis- relevant in this bill is the issue of the changes closure of confidential security and criminal to the character test and the reversal of the intelligence information that is provided by onus of proof. A number of witnesses told the Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 659 recent Senate committee that looked into this the-board, automatic mechanism of determina- legislation in the previous parliament about tion. Perhaps even more importantly, people the strong objections they had to the character who are now world leaders will usually be test itself. Certainly, the inclusion of certain fine. They obviously have that extra public levels of criminal sentences as an automatic profile to assist their cases, but for more indication of someone’s character does seem anonymous people around the globe, many of to me and to the Democrats to be a potential whom have been caught in justice systems problem. Whilst the current minister may be which are not as fair as ours, that is some- a person of sufficient wisdom and fairness to thing which is not open to them. Perhaps even be able to work his way through some of the more relevant is the potential lack of a clear minefields in this area, one can obviously distinction in many areas between criminal never guarantee the integrity of future behaviour and psychiatric illnesses, where ministers in this area. That is always the people may have had psychiatric disabilities danger when increasing the power and discre- in various countries that are not as capable as tion of ministers in general. ours of determining these differences and may In his second reading speech the minister have established criminal records as a result. said that decision making in relation to In those circumstances, they will find it a lot character judgments will be improved by harder to meet the reversal of onus of proof deeming that certain levels of criminal senten- that is put upon them. ces will lead to an automatic finding that the A number of submissions to the Senate non-citizen concerned is not of good charac- committee which looked into this matter ter. Then of course it becomes incumbent on voiced a lot of opposition to the degree of that person to prove otherwise. In other personal power which will be given to the words, the onus of proof is reversed automati- minister as a result of this bill. That is always cally, based on certain criteria. It assumes a a risk, as I mentioned earlier. The Law Coun- uniform system and standard of justice around cil of Australia noted that the minister will the world, which clearly is not the reality. have virtually absolute powers to exclude or The character test does not adequately take remove non-citizens who are deemed not to into account, in our view, that justice and be of good character. Again, this goes to criminality are defined very differently in trying to reach that middle ground between various countries throughout the world. We providing adequate powers to address a have had pointed out to us during committee situation but not providing such absolute hearings and on other occasions that certain powers that it leads to the potential of over- world leaders would, under the test to be kill. imposed in this legislation, automatically be The minister will have the ability to set deemed to be of bad character and then would aside decisions of the AAT and to refuse or have to prove otherwise. Nelson Mandela is cancel a visa where the minister suspects that an obvious example, as is the President of the person does not pass the character test and South Korea, whose name escapes me, not the refusal or cancellation is in the national being as learned in these matters as I should interest. The flexibility of the definition of be. ‘national interest’ again is another one that is Senator Schacht—Kim Dae Jung. potentially open to misuse and is one that is Senator BARTLETT—Thank you for your able to be used to provide the minister with assistance, Senator. I am sure other world extremely wide powers, which is always a leaders and people who are now seen to be potential concern. people of influence and significance would I should mention again the Democrats automatically be deemed to be of bad charac- support for the proposal to increase from 42 ter. Obviously, on a case by case basis, the days, which was in the original bill, to 84 government would say that we would not days the limit on reviewing character cases. have a problem with Nelson Mandela, but this This seems to us to be much more reasonable. points out the problems of having an across- Nonetheless, we share the concerns held by 660 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 many people who deal with people who are immigration issues over the coming months applying for visas of all sorts regarding the and years. subjective nature of the term ‘national Senator SCHACHT (South Australia) interest’ on which the minister will be able to (5.07 p.m.)—I rise on behalf of the opposition refuse or cancel a visa on character grounds. to indicate that we support the passage of the The Ethnic Communities Council of West- Migration Legislation Amendment (Strength- ern Australia pointed out that, rather than ening of Provisions Relating to Character and having access to an independent review Conduct) Bill 1997. In their remarks, the process, these people will now be subjected previous speakers—Senator Bartlett and my to the whim of the government of the day good friend Senator Cooney—raised the determining what is in the national interest. vexed issues of the balance between due Whilst this government may be able to exer- process, human rights, the right of the indi- cise that discretion with expert ability, per- vidual vis-a-vis the state, the onus of proof haps a future government may not be able to and so on, which are all very relevant. Those do it so well. The term ‘national interest’ issues have been debated at some length in potentially is so broad as to be able to justify the Labor Party and we, on balance, believe almost any issue of a certificate of exclusion that what the government has proposed in this if the government deems it necessary. Obvi- bill should be supported. ously the politics of these things could come In the broader Australian community, into the situation as much as the real facts. irrespective of one’s view, the due process and the natural inclination have always been I would now like to refer to the culture and to say that someone is innocent until proven the message that we send out to the communi- guilty. In the situation where we face the onus ty. I have been a bit disappointed by the of proof being reversed from the standard that statements—at least those of the Prime most of us have always supported, that is, on Minister, if not of the other ministers of the balance, a reasonable thing to do in view of government—since the election which seem, the clear evidence that there are people to a large extent, to be continuing to send a around the world in organised criminal activi- message out to the community to reinforce a ties who would find it useful to get permanent perception that there is a problem of large residency or a period of stay in Australia to scale abuse of the system by people entering carry out some form of criminal activity Australia and not playing by the rules or against the citizens of Australia. seeking to exploit the system. Whilst the We believe that it is very important to Democrats certainly do not suggest that there decide on the balance of probability of what are not people who are doing the wrong thing, is in the national interest as to whether the I think it is always a danger, whether it is in minister should have the power to ultimately this area, in social security or in anything overrule an appeal to the AAT. The opposi- else, to overstate a problem and affect com- tion believes that in the national interest, munity attitudes towards a whole class of where the minister overrules the AAT and people, the vast majority of whom are not that decision is provided to the parliament, it doing anything wrong and are simply trying is on the minister’s head—to use that crude to follow appropriate process. term—that the decision be made public in the Those are some of the concerns that the terms that it has been refused. The community Democrats have with the thrust of this legisla- can then debate whether the minister has used tion, whilst recognising that there are real the character test appropriately. issues that the government is trying to ad- At a personal level, I have always argued dress. I would like to take this opportunity to that ministerial responsibility to the parlia- congratulate Senator Patterson on being ment is the ultimate sanction in a properly promoted to the position of parliamentary functioning democracy. I have always been secretary for this area. I am sure we will be more interested in a minister standing up and engaging in more constructive debate on saying, ‘I did it—or I did not do it—and I Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 661 take responsibility, and I will be judged When Louis Farrakhan visited Australia accordingly by the community as well as by recently, Minister Ruddock put some caveats the parliament,’ rather than having some on his being granted a visa. I understand that tribunal elsewhere make a judgment. Mr Farrakhan accepted that and I do not think I have noticed, by the way, that when the there was any breach of those caveats, in- public disagrees with a finding of a quasi- structions or restrictions. I stand to be cor- independent tribunal, they still blame the rected on this, but I think that was the case. minister anyway. It is a bit like the old saying There is an equally celebrated case where in politics: a minister will always get the three previous governments—including a former jeers when something goes wrong and will be Labor government—had refused a visa under blamed, but he seldom gets the three cheers the issue of good character to the British when something goes right. author and so-called historian David Irving. In the end, it has to be a ministerial power Mr Irving has written a number of books, as long as it is transparent that it is being some of which, to say the least, are controver- used. If it were shown that a decision could sially contested, about his view on such issues be taken to overrule the AAT without it being as the Holocaust and the Second World War. made public in some form and for it to be He has also written other books on matters acknowledged, we would not support that that do not deal specifically with the Holo- position. I do not think any person in a caust and related areas that that are, other democracy should have the right to make a historians tell me, quite reasonable books in judicial decision in any form without it being historical terms. In fact, I have read one of publicly available for debate. them myself. I think it was entitled The War This is an important issue. The opposition Between the Generals. believes that, on balance, that protection is Senator McKiernan—Don’t ask me! reasonable. Any minister from any govern- ment will stand to be judged accordingly. Senator SCHACHT—No, I am not looking These issues of good character are always to you, Senator McKiernan, to vouch for this, going to be matters of fine judgment. For but it was a very interesting book about the example, I know that my colleague Senator personal disputes between the various Allied McKiernan has raised the issue of the applica- generals from the time of Normandy onwards tion for a visa by Gerry Adams, a member of in the Second World War—Eisenhower, Sinn Fein, who may or may not have some Montgomery, Bradley, Patton and others. That formal connection with the IRA. He was book was quite an interesting read and it gave refused an application for a visa to visit new information. Australia. Again, the argument of judgment about Before the peace settlement in Northern David Irving being granted a visa is a matter Ireland, one might have argued that it was a of fine judgment as to whether he should or very reasonable position that previous govern- should not. He clearly upsets a significant ments and this government had taken. But section of the Australian community because now there is a peace settlement and Gerry of his views about the Holocaust. He also Adams meets the ministers of the British would argue that in a democracy he should be government, and he is now a minister in the entitled to have free speech. Others may say government of Northern Ireland in the recon- that they want to hear his views. But he is not stituted Stormont parliament. I therefore think a citizen of Australia and I believe it is a he may have a stronger case to argue as to matter of judgment, so long as the ministerial why he should be given a visa to come to decision to either grant or not grant him a Australia—even if that visa is given, as usual, visa is made public. The public will make a with some caveats. We have no quibble with judgment, and that will be part of the public ministers from time to time putting caveats on debate in a democracy. those applications for a visa and that people We do not oppose the government’s bill on must obey those caveats. the power of the minister to effect a decision, 662 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 even though the AAT may say something any bill in this area of balancing the different. We do not have any objection to the individual’s right against the collective right government reversing the onus of proof. We of the community to defend itself will always believe it would be easier for some of the be perfectly reached. Circumstances will criminals who may be wanting to get into change from time to time. Australia to carry out their criminal activity to gain and maintain entry while a govern- If this bill goes through and if, after we ment tried to prove their background. I also have the experience of its operation, it does accept, as a former Customs minister in require further amendment in view of future particular, that unfortunately there are times experience, so be it. That is not a deficiency when you cannot allow all the evidence of this legislation. It means that from time to before you to be made public about why some time the balances will be shifted around in person does not pass the character test. debate in the community and in the parlia- ment. That is a strength of our democracy, not I know, as a former Customs minister, that a weakness of it. if you divulge the information you have had internationally provided to you about why I would always say in these areas dealing someone should be refused a visa and there- with judicial rights et cetera that although we fore at the customs barrier not be let into the should always err on the side of the individ- country if they tried, you may put at risk ual, we cannot automatically forgo the rights somebody elsewhere in the world who has collectively of the community if that individ- provided that information and you may put at ual who is not a citizen of this country is risk the future arrangements Australia has perverting our own processes to advance their with our services—the Federal Police, Cus- criminal activity. I think the view in the toms, et cetera—for getting adequate informa- community would be that the collective view tion, because they would not want to have put must outweigh in this case the individual at risk their sources. I understand that you rights on the normal things that we would cannot automatically provide all that informa- argue for, for our own citizens internally tion. It should not be made available for within Australia. Therefore, the opposition someone to defend themselves and probably supports this legislation. to use the information indirectly or even Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) directly to carry out and further extend their (5.19 p.m.)—The Migration Legislation criminal activity, and to use it to threaten Amendment (Strengthening of Provisions people who may have provided the informa- relating to Character and Conduct) Bill 1997 tion. I think the onus of proof in this case on seeks to amend the Migration Act of 1958 to balance, as I said, is reasonable. increase control over the entry into and I understand that when this bill was first presence in Australia of certain non-citizens proposed the time to lodge an appeal was 42 who are unable to pass the character test and days. I think through work and negotiation to strengthen the procedures used in dealing that has now been extended to 84 days and with such people. we think that is a reasonable outcome. I think The bill was introduced in the House of the minister also wanted an extension of some Representatives on 30 October 1997 and they time to respond as well in certain procedural passed it on 19 November of that year. There matters. We think on balance that that was were six opposition amendments moved at the reasonable. time, all of which were negatived. There was I have no doubt that circumstances may be a relatively brief and narrow inquiry in the such in two or three years time, if this bill is Senate. There were 23 submissions received carried—and I think it will be carried with the and, subsequently, 11 witnesses appeared government and opposition supporting it—that before the committee. Furthermore, Senators there may be people debating that the bill has Bolkus and McKiernan wrote minority reports gone too much one way or not enough in and the Democrats wrote a dissenting report, another direction. There is no guarantee that leaving only Senators Abetz, Coonan and Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 663

O’Chee, all coalition senators, to agree to the Senator Schacht—It would not be difficult provisions of this bill. to prove, I would have thought. Labor, I believe, has now had its amend- Senator MARGETTS—Senator Schacht ments incorporated into the Senate bill and I interjects that it is not difficult to prove, but understand it intends to pass the bill without you are putting that onus on people to prove further amendments. The character test at its their wrongful imprisonment. The detail—the minimum is whether a person has been proof—is not so easy to get when people sentenced to 12 months in prison. It would themselves may be under great distress and deem all visas of a person not meeting the stress. What is considered to be proof under character test to be cancelled or refused. It is, the law? Do you have to have witnesses to we believe, worth while to have an objective, your torture? What kind of proof would be standardised and legally binding character test considered to be adequate proof for victims of with its potential for simplification and wrongful arrest, torture or bad treatment? greater consistency in decision making but, in Should we put people through this when they its current form, this test leaves no room for may well be refugees who would normally be those who have since reformed, how long ago accepted? their sentence was given, or those who have It gives stronger ministerial powers to been wrongfully imprisoned. That includes refuse or cancel a visa on character grounds. political prisoners. The minister may intervene in any case and substitute his or her own decision to refuse or Under this legislation, neither President cancel a visa on character grounds. This Nelson Mandela nor Aung San Suu Kyi decision will be non-reviewable by the Ad- would have passed the character test. I won- ministrative Appeals Tribunal. Applicants can der whether somehow this legislation will be lawfully placed in detention following their change in order to alter that situation if those failure to meet the character test. If the people, or others in a similar position, ever decision is revoked, they can subsequently apply to come to Australia. The length of claim against the Commonwealth because of time a person has been in Australia and the their detention. We have had an example in stable links they have formed with the Aus- recent days of a potential decision where the tralian community, including family, are not minister basically was trying to expel a person taken into consideration, nor is a person being whose life was in danger. It is always pos- of good character and yet associating with sible that ministers make wrong decisions, those who have a criminal background; that and here we are removing the ability to is, community groups and church workers. appeal to the Administrative Appeals Tribu- nal. Senator Schacht, in his contribution, said that he was comfortable with the reversal of It undermines the integrity, independence the onus of proof. I think that is a problem. and public confidence in the work of the The amendments would place the burden of tribunal even if these powers are used only in proof on visa holders to convince the minister rare cases. Theoretically, an independent that they pass the character test. Since 1992 tribunal could find the person to be of good it has been up to the department to prove that character but the minister could decide they the person did not meet the test. When you are of bad character, and the minister would are dealing with refugees who may well have not have to disclose the details of how he or been wrongfully imprisoned, sometimes for she came to this decision. several years at a time—which I must say I The minister can intervene at any time heard today in relation to Chilean refugees during the review process even if the applica- who were tortured and imprisoned—you put tion is still being decided by the Administra- a very great burden on people who are al- tive Appeals Tribunal. No indication is re- ready traumatised to prove and put up a case quired as to which individuals or groups to the Australian parliament that they have should be excluded and on what grounds. A been wrongfully imprisoned. visa can be refused or cancelled if the 664 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 minister decides it is in the national interests, the Freedom of Information Act. It is a and the national interests are not defined. The double bind. Law enforcement and intelli- applicants, we believe, should be able to gence agencies are reluctant to give informa- claim for improper time in detention. tion because of the government’s inability to With the scheme for expedited review, the promise non-disclosure and, therefore, charac- review application must be lodged with the ter assessments cannot be easily or properly AAT within nine days of notification of done. Yet if the information does not have to decision, with one set of all documents. The be disclosed to anyone, including the parlia- minister must provide non-disclosable docu- ment, it weakens an evaluation of the decision ments within 14 days of being notified of the on the person’s character. The AAT argues application by the AAT, and if no decision is that the information should at least be avail- made within 84 days of the person’s original able to them for the purpose of the review, notification, the original decision is upheld. and that sounds like a reasonable argument. The 10-day limit for applicants to lodge a This could prevent people from applying for review is impractical and unrealistic, given other visas. The amendments prevent, with language and postal barriers and the difficul- limited exceptions, persons who have a visa ties for individuals in getting their application refused or cancelled on character grounds together, especially in conjunction with an from applying for further visas while they are already overburdened legal aid system. still in the migration zone. A person could We have had many debates about that in still apply for refugee status, which is an the past, and Senator McKiernan can attest to essential caveat to this provision. the difficulties getting worse under our legal The minister must notify the applicant of a aid system. One aim is to ensure the review decision and the process of coming to that process is not used as a mechanism to prolong decision and of any rights of appeal, much as the person’s stay in Australia. The majority of before. Notification must also be accompanied applicants will be in detention anyway whilst by two copies of all relevant non-disclosable awaiting their review. It is not much of an documents. Giving two copies enables the incentive to stay on for review process. applicant to quickly apply for appeal to the There is a new test for conclusive certifi- AAT. cates. The new standard test for all conclusive It does enhance the power to give binding certificates will be the ‘national interest’. The directions. The minister’s power, under minister will have the power to prevent a case section 499, to delegates and tribunals would being reviewed by the Immigration Review be expanded, and the minister would be able Tribunal and the Refugee Review Tribunal as to specify more precisely how a discretion well as the AAT if he or she deems that it is should be exercised. in the national interest—again, unspecified. We are not sure how this would work out Again, this undermines the independence of in practice. We are very concerned about the the review process. National interest is not implications for basic human rights, and we defined and gives the minister an unaccept- think that it is very dangerous legislation. ably vague and broad base for excluding Therefore the Greens will not be supporting people to merits review. Currently, the nation- the Migration Legislation Amendment al interest is defined in some degree as the (Strengthening of Provisions relating to security, defence or international relations of Character and Conduct) Bill 1997. Australia. At least this degree of clarity Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) should remain, and that is not here. (5.29 p.m.)—I rise to support this Migration With protection from disclosure of confi- Legislation Amendment (Strengthening of dential security and criminal intelligence Provisions relating to Character and Conduct) information, the information provided by Bill 1997 in its amended form. We cannot be specified law enforcement or intelligence accused of acting in haste in the passage of agencies for the purposes of assessing a this particular bill. Senator Margetts in her person’s character would be protected from opening comments went through the dates Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 665 from the introduction of the bill through to its evidence in Melbourne and Canberra. We presentation to the Senate. It is now more presented a report to the parliament before 23 than 12 months since we have seen the bill. March this year. The bill has languished since I was very tempted to get a copy of the then despite the urgency of the message minister’s press statement, which he released contained in the minister’s press statement. at the time, making all sorts of accusations Nothing has happened on it until today. It is about the Labor Party and where the Labor proceeding today because there is, I under- Party stands in regard to the control of crimi- stand, unanimity on where we are going. nals entering this country and what stance we might take on the bill. Senator Margetts—Ahem. In the sense of where we are going with the Senator Brown—Not quite. bill and in recognition of the very positive negotiations that have occurred, I have decid- Senator McKIERNAN—Thank you, ed not to go down that track. But I do make Senator Margetts, I accept that interjection but mention of it. It might be better if those I am not sure how Hansard will deal with it. negotiations started or if there were at least Even you would accept that the bill is prob- some element of consultation with the parlia- ably going to get relatively speedy passage. ment before the press secretary drafts, prints The minority report by Senator Bolkus and and issues those press statements. It might me, which is attached to the committee’s save some egg being tossed at the minister’s main report, is a short, very considered four- face, because it is the minister who ultimately page document. In it we give some very gets it. It might seem to be a good idea for considered advice to the department and to the press secretary at the time, to justify the the minister. We are very pleased that, from income they are on, but it may not necessarily what we have heard so far, the suggestions be the right thing for the government in the contained in that minority report have been long term. taken up and will be actioned by the commit- With the passage of this bill we are clearly tee. I recognise that there are some in the seeing a vindication of the stance that Labor chamber who do not necessarily agree with has taken consistently over many years, and the stance we have taken on it. But we very certainly in the years that I have been a clearly outlined in that very short 3½-page member of this parliament. Labor stands very minority report that there would be consider- strongly for parliamentary control of who can able debate during the committee stages of enter this country and who can remain in this the bill had the amendments not been present- country. Those who have criminal records, ed to the chamber. The amendments are who have been involved or engaged in crimi- forthcoming so I do not need to dwell and nal activity, are not welcome. We have not delay the Senate much more on it. welcomed them and we will not welcome I do need to follow up on the comments them as members of the opposition. Irrespec- made by Senator Schacht when he mentioned tive of what is contained in the ministerial some of the less desirable people that we press statements from time to time, action would not be wanting to come into this speaks louder than words. And the actions country. Mr David Irving is one of those. Mr have been the negotiations that have gone on Irving has an international criminal record. He around this bill. has been deported from Canada and also from The bill, as Senator Margetts and Senator Germany. That in itself is reason enough not Schacht have said, was referred to the Senate to issue that particular individual with a visa. Legal and Constitutional Legislation Commit- Mr Irving’s lawyers have challenged both tee, which did conduct some public hearings ministers’ decisions—the current minister, Mr on the bill. We took evidence on the bill in Ruddock, and the previous minister—in the Perth, which is somewhat strange for a legis- Federal Court of Australia. Thankfully, those lation committee because generally they take appeals have been dismissed. They are deci- evidence in only Canberra. We also took sions that I hold to. 666 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

But not all ministerial decisions are neces- hope the minister is receptive to pleas such as sarily correct in the fullness of time. Senator I am making. Schacht mentioned Mr Gerry Adams. He I would stress and urge to Mr Adams and probably should have called him Mr Gerry his supporters that the application be made in Adams MP. Not only is Mr Adams a member the normal way. There are millions of appli- of the new assembly in Northern Ireland; he cations for visas to enter Australia made each is also an elected member of the Westminster year. Not all of them need to be done through parliament, which is said to be the mother of the media; they can be done in the normal all the parliaments. He has not actually taken way according to the law. I know there are his seat but there are political reasons for that. people in Australia who want to meet with I have not been on the public record before Adams, want to talk with him and want to saying that the Australian government—either listen to his experiences in the lead-in to and Labor or Liberal—should grant a visa to Mr actual happenings in the peace process in Adams. I have not until now. I now go on the Northern Ireland. I hope that that visa will be public record and say that if Gerry Adams granted and that members of parliament such applies for a visa in the normal way he ought as us assembled in the Senate of Australia to be issued with one so he can enter this might be given the opportunity to meet country to speak with his supporters in this directly with him and hear his views. There country. are, Mr Acting Deputy President, as you would quite well know, very strong links I am changing my mind on Mr Adams. between Ireland and Australia and between There are some members of the community, the United Kingdom and Australia, and I hope particularly back in Western Australia, who that the passage of this bill will actually lead will know that I have not previously support- to some positive developments in that regard. ed Mr Adams in his quest to come to Austral- ia. I certainly did not support the visa request I made some remarks earlier about the when his book was being published. But benefit of consultation on matters before things have dramatically changed in Northern statements are announced. I am aware of a Ireland and I pay great tribute to Mr Adams ministerial statement given yesterday during for what has happened in that very divided question time in the House of Representatives nation of Northern Ireland, and in Ireland and when the Minister for Immigration and Multi- the United Kingdom. cultural Affairs made some comment about alleged abuses of the special needs relative Adams played a very crucial role in the category. He said that the regulations are peace process which culminated in an agree- going to be tightened up—regulations, I might ment on Good Friday of this year—a peace add, that are subject to examination by this process which was later validated and vindi- chamber and indeed can be subject to dis- cated by referendums in both the north and allowance if they are wrong. south of Ireland. Adams’s role has been internationally recognised and he probably I have from the Internet a copy of the should have been included as one of the Fuduche judgment, which I understand was recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize along with the judgment the minister referred to when he the two recipients who were granted it. I said, in his answer to a question—which was understand there were political reasons why more a ministerial statement—that the special Adams could not be included in that. needs relative category system was being abused because someone was allowed to stay Whatever reasons there were previously for because of homesickness. That is in the Adams not being granted a visa on character statement in the House of Representatives. grounds—a decision on which I understand From my quick glance through the judgment, there is a challenge still ongoing in the and it is a fairly substantial judgment, I do courts—I think those reasons have now been not think that the minister is quite accurate in put behind us, and we have to move forward his description that it was merely homesick- with the times. Times have changed, and I ness. I do not want to distort the record either, Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 667 but there might be opportunity during the and whatever. Ultimately, as I said, what we committee stages, if there is need to, to come on this side of the chamber are about is back and look at that. But I think this particu- protecting Australia, which I understand lar case was a lot more serious than merely people on the other side of the chamber are homesickness. I understand that an individual about. We can work together on this, and I had a psychiatric disorder and the separation think the actions and the amendments that are of the family had an enormous impact on the forthcoming on this particular bill are living individual, and that was substantiated by proof of how we are working together. medical opinion. Senator PATTERSON (Victoria— Maybe it is useful for ministers from time Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for to time to grab a headline and get their name Immigration and Multicultural Affairs) (5.44 in the paper, to be seen from time to time to p.m.)—I would like to thank Senator Cooney, be doing something. But, if we are going Senator Short, Senator Bartlett, Senator down the wrong track—the wrong track in Margetts and Senator McKiernan for their terms of the government, the wrong track in contributions to the debate. To sum up, I terms of protecting Australia—maybe it is remind all senators that the objective of the better to sit and wait before we go for the Migration Legislation Amendment (Strength- headline. Certainly I have been tempted to do ening of Provisions relating to Character and that, but in my latter years in the parliament Conduct) Bill 1997 is to safeguard the Aus- I have not been issuing press releases on such tralian community. It implements a number of a regular basis. We can make mistakes, and important policy measures in relation to the in this particular category of character testing entry and stay in Australia of non-citizens it can be very decisive and have a great who are of character concern. These measures impact on the individuals concerned. We need continue the process of restoring community look no further than July of last year and the credibility in the management of immigration case of Mr Lorenzo Ervin, and the embar- matters. It will enable the government effec- rassment that that case caused to the then tively to discharge its duties and responsibili- acting minister, Senator Vanstone, when she ties to the Australian people and ensure a got it wrong, and the embarrassment of the higher level of protection for the Australian department whose advice she was probably community. acting on who had got it wrong, and the embarrassment of the QC before the High The bill sends a clear and unequivocal Court of Australia because they had got it message on behalf of the Australian com- wrong. munity, which expects that non-citizens coming to Australia should be of good charac- Mistakes and errors can occur, and I think ter. To meet this expectation, the government what we are doing now, the referral of a bill must have the ability to act quickly and deci- such as this to a Senate parliamentary com- sively wherever necessary and to remove non- mittee, has vindicated the processes of the citizens who are not of good character. This Senate. There were only three hearings of the message is especially timely given Australia’s committee to take evidence from different hosting of the Olympic Games in less than parts of Australia and it was not the biggest two years time. inquiry that the committee has ever participat- ed in, but they were all very useful hearings. I would like to address a couple of issues Very useful evidence was collected and a very that honourable senators raised during the useful report was presented to the parliament debate. The other night Senator Cooney said of Australia. I would argue there was a very in his remarks that the proposals in this bill useful minority report from Senator Bolkus would only apply to visitors to this country. and me, which I understand has been heeded. I would like to clarify that the provisions can Perhaps this is a better way to go than racing apply to all non-citizens in Australia, whether to grab an immediate headline from they are visitors or permanent residents. I ministerial statements, from press statements would also like to clarify that the rights of 668 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 non-citizens to seek judicial review will not requirements for a visa is that the non-citizen be changed by this bill. must demonstrate that they meet the criteria, Senator Cooney also said that the minister one of which is character. This bill ensures must apply the provisions of section 501 that the objective of protecting the Australian personally. I would like to clarify that the community will take precedence, with the major power under section 501 to refuse or onus being placed on the non-citizen, as it cancel a visa is exercisable either by the was before 1992. This existed in 1992. It was minister or by a delegate of the minister. a change then that actually led to a period Also, Senator Cooney pointed out that the where the minister or the delegate had to power under section 501 is a discretionary indicate that the person was not of good power which allows the minister or delegate character. So it is really not earth-shattering to exercise their discretion to refuse or cancel or rocket science; it was in legislation before. a visa. This means that, even if people like Senator Bartlett also referred to the Anwar Ibrahim did not meet the requirements minister’s personal powers. The powers that of a character test, they could still be granted are conferred by this bill on the minister to a visa. I cannot quite remember but I think refuse or cancel a visa are subject to the Senator Cooney actually referred to Anwar requirements of natural justice. Non-citizens Ibrahim. will still have the opportunity to make rep- He also requested evidence of people who resentations to the minister that they do meet have come to this country and ‘done character requirements. The only time that a violence’. While the majority of visitors and non-citizen will not be entitled to make a permanent residents are law-abiding citizens, representation or seek a merits review is there are many instances of such conduct. I where the minister decides that it is not in the have been given a recent example of such national interest. behaviour where criminals from a particular country—and I do not think it does any of us Senator Schacht, in his contribution, indicat- any good to name that country—who trav- ed maybe the difference between why the elled here and committed crimes of violence opposition is agreeing with the government in against members of their own ethnic groups this case and why the minority parties are not: who had settled in Australia. Senator Cooney that is that members of the opposition, when may wish me to give him more detail about they were in government, had to make the that. It is not appropriate here, but there are sorts of decisions that Mr Ruddock has to examples that can be given of that happening. make now in government. It is, as Senator I would like to add that this bill is not just Schacht said, a fine balance between the about preventing physical violence in Austral- rights of the individual and national interest. ia by visitors or permanent residents; it is also I think Senator Schacht put very clearly the designed to protect the community from other dilemma we face in—if I can be a little bit threats such as harassment, intimidation and rude to you, Senator Schacht—an uncharacter- vilification by preventing people with substan- istically succinct way, because he did not take tial criminal records or criminal associations his whole 20 minutes. He was able to put from coming to or remaining in Australia. forward a very clear case about why he is going to agree with us. Senator Bartlett raised the issue of the reversal of the onus of proof. I think Senator It speaks volumes that the opposition is Schacht dealt with that in his contribution supporting us on this—because you have been when he talked about the very delicate bal- in the position of having to make these very ance between the rights of individuals and the difficult decisions. I will admit to Senator rights of a country, or the national interest. Margetts and Senator Bartlett that they are The reversal of the onus of proof reflects a very difficult decisions and there is no real general principle that, where a person is answer. It is an issue of judgment, but it is a seeking a benefit, responsibility lies with that judgment that has to be made to protect the person to establish eligibility. One of the interests of Australian citizens. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 669

Senator Schacht indicated that the require- AYES ment for the minister to table reasons for the Hogg, J. Hutchins, S. overturning of an AAT decision allowed Knowles, S. C. Lightfoot, P. R. Lundy, K. Macdonald, S. transparency in that decision making. I think MacGibbon, D. J. Mackay, S. he was correct in saying that and I think that McGauran, J. J. J. McKiernan, J. P. is appropriate. Senator McKiernan, I will O’Brien, K. W. K. O’Chee, W. G. * draw your comments regarding Gerry Adams Patterson, K. C. L. Payne, M. A. to the minister’s attention. I am sure that he Quirke, J. A. Ray, R. F. will make any decision, if there is an applica- Reid, M. E. Reynolds, M. Schacht, C. C. Tambling, G. E. J. tion, based on its merits. Troeth, J. Watson, J. O. W. Senator Schacht—And mine too, if you West, S. M. wouldn’t mind. NOES Senator PATTERSON—Of course, Sena- Allison, L. Bartlett, A. J. J. Bourne, V. * Brown, B. tor Schacht, I will bring your comments to his Lees, M. H. Margetts, D. attention. I was just checking about a judg- Murray, A. Stott Despoja, N. ment that Senator McKiernan referred to. I Woodley, J. have been advised that there may have been * denotes teller some confusion about whether the homesick- ness related to another case. I have not had Question so resolved in the affirmative. time to have that checked, but if you would Bill read a second time. like a briefing on that the departmental In Committee officers would be only too happy to do that. There may have been some confusion, be- Bill agreed to. cause I think there were two cases, but I have Bill reported without amendment; report not had time to follow that up. adopted. I would like to thank honourable senators Third Reading for their contributions. I would also like to Bill (on motion by Senator Patterson) read thank the opposition for their cooperation in a third time. supporting this bill. I look forward to working with the minister to ensure the integrity of our GOVERNOR-GENERAL’S SPEECH migration system and the granting of visas. Address-in-Reply Question put: Debate resumed from 11 November, on That the bill be now read a second time. motion by Senator MacGibbon: The Senate divided. [5.56 p.m.] That the following Address-in-Reply be agreed (The President—Senator the Hon. Margaret to: Reid) To His Excellency the Governor-General Ayes ...... 43 MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY— Noes ...... 9 We, the Senate of the Commonwealth of Austral- —— ia in Parliament assembled, desire to express our Majority ...... 34 loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign and to —— thank Your Excellency for the speech which you AYES have been pleased to address to Parliament. Abetz, E. Bishop, T. M. Brownhill, D. G. C. Calvert, P. H. Senator WEST (New South Wales) (6.01 Campbell, G. Carr, K. p.m.)—Thank you, Mr Acting Deputy Presi- Collins, J. M. A. Cooney, B. dent Bartlett. Well done on your first day in Crane, W. Crossin, P. M. the chair. This is a typical example of this Crowley, R. A. Denman, K. J. government’s inability to manage its business. Eggleston, A. Faulkner, J. P. Ferguson, A. B. Ferris, J. Quite literally, notice was given us about this Forshaw, M. G. Gibbs, B. change to the program within the last 30 Heffernan, W. Herron, J. seconds. I have just had to ring my office 670 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 and, as people possibly observed, my staffer People are beginning to realise that the GST has just arrived with the notes I was using will have major impacts on the general com- earlier. munity. There are a number of issues that I want to There is another issue that I want to take continue to canvass here about what this up: this government’s treatment of health—or government’s policies and the new directions lack of treatment. I am referring to the that they are taking—or, rather, not taking— government’s cut, in its first budget in 1996, mean for people, and particularly what they to its component of the Commonwealth mean for people in rural areas. I spoke earlier Dental Scheme. That has had a major impact about the concerns of various groups about on many people and many services. I have the impact the GST will have on them. In here a copy of a letter to the editor of the particular, charitable organisations and church Daily Liberal, which is the Dubbo newspaper. groups with their op-shops and things like On 11 November, an Elaine Elliot wrote to that—which they run for people’s benefit— the paper expressing major concern about are expressing concern. Other groups also are what happened to her mother. expressing concern about the GST. Certainly Her mother, who is an insulin-dependent local government bodies are expressing diabetic, broke her false teeth. When she rang concern. the dental clinic she was advised to superglue The Local News is a briefing paper for them so that they might last the necessary five parliamentarians produced by the Local months. Otherwise, she had to get a letter Government and Shires Associations of New from a dentist or a doctor confirming her South Wales. In the October-November issue, current health problems and explaining why issue 7, they say: she needed urgent attention. Even with a Local Government has some concerns about the medical certificate she could only get a application of a GST on council activities. The number and be placed on a waiting list. The extent to which the GST will apply to Local clinic could not determine the time in which Government ‘commercial activities’ is a major she would get treatment. Elaine Elliot finally concern in the absence of clear definition. It is found a private dentist who would repair the understood that water, sewerage, child care, nursing homes and domestic waste will remain GST-free, dentures, but it was at cost to her mother. however, this leaves in doubt the status of a I know of another lady who lives in Orange number of other activities for which councils and who has been waiting five months for collect fees. replacement of a filling that has fallen out of The Voss inquiry was set up and given three one of her front teeth. She is on social securi- weeks to answer these questions relating to ty. She would like to get a job, but she cannot health and what is in and what is out. These afford to get her tooth filled. She cannot get sorts of things are going to take Senate onto the emergency waiting list of the local committees a number of months to sort out dental health clinic, so she has to sit at home. and work through, yet the Voss committee She is not able to eat properly. She does not was given three weeks to do it. feel confident enough to go out and get a job. I have extracts from local papers such as Senator Patterson—Raise it with Mr Carr. the Daily Advertiser in Wagga. Local disabili- ty groups and services in that town have Senator WEST—The parliamentary secre- expressed concern about the impact of the tary says, ‘She should raise it with Mr Carr.’ GST on them. I have seen press releases by The parliamentary secretary does not under- groups like St Vincent de Paul deploring the stand that the reason this particular scheme lack of compassion for the poor in the GST. was introduced by the Labor government It is a pity, mind you, that they did not make when we were in power was that there were these comments before the election to alert insufficient funds to all of the states, includ- people to the very negative impact that the ing the Liberal held states. GST will have upon people on low incomes, We had some compassion when we were in but it is nice that they have done it now. power and cared about dental health and, Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 671 therefore, the general health of people. We Excellency referred to the government’s so- introduced the scheme whereby poor people called Tough on Drugs initiatives, asserting and those on low incomes were able to have that the government will be maintaining its dental treatment more quickly than before. momentum on the fight against illicit drugs. This callous, uncaring government scrapped To many from within the treatment field this the scheme because they said the Common- must have come as a big surprise, considering wealth had no role or responsibility for the that they were unaware that any momentum dental health of the people of this nation. had ever been gained. Teeth do not know state boundaries. The Prime Minister rejected the recommen- Senator Patterson—I rise on a point of dations of his own Ministerial Council on order. I was waiting to see whether Senator Drug Strategy last year when they concluded West would correct what she had said. I said that the ACT heroin trial should go ahead. He that Senator West should raise it with Mr has subsequently set about establishing a new Carr, not the person to whom she was refer- body that might be more accommodating to ring. It should be Senator West who raises it his own personal opinions. The new Austral- with Mr Carr. ian National Council on Drugs is chaired by The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT Major Brian Watters from the Salvation (Senator Bartlett)—There is no point of Army, who was the other most prominent order. opponent of the heroin trial. Senator WEST—The parliamentary secre- The Prime Minister has recently been tary knows jolly well that it does not need to asserting his commitment to addressing social be the responsibility of me or anybody else to policy issues and I think it is about time he raise this with state premiers. The federal had a second look at his stance on drug law government should be accepting its responsi- reform. I find it particularly ironic that Mr bility for dental health, not passing the blame Howard continues to pay lip service to the on to the state and flicking it off. This is cause when he has repeatedly ignored the typical of the attitude of this government. advice and direction of doctors, academics, They do not want national schemes. They do workers from within the treatment field and not think that people in New South Wales, indeed his own cabinet ministers with regard Victoria, Tasmania or Queensland have the to possible avenues for reform. same right of access to the same schemes. Legislation governing illicit drug use in People are being told, ‘Use superglue for Australia has traditionally been steeped in your dentures’ and people cannot even get an attitudes of fear and prejudice. The very first appointment for five months to see whether laws enacted in Australia to restrict the their case is an urgent one. This government consumption of drugs were initiated to pro- stands condemned for their lack of concern hibit the smoking of opium in the early and compassion for people. This is typical of 1900s. These laws were enacted largely as a what you would expect from a conservative knee-jerk reaction to the increased presence government. For that they are to be con- of Chinese immigrants in Australia at the demned. People deserve better than that. But time. The Chinese, who had come to Australia this government just does not care at all. They throughout the gold rush, were perceived with should be roundly condemned. In less than suspicion and trepidation by the broader three years time they should be kicked out by population. Significant racist sentiment at the the people of Australia because they jolly time reflected the belief that the Chinese were well know that they are not going to be cared stealing jobs from ‘real Australians’. for by a conservative government. They are It was from within such a climate that an uncaring and uncompassionate mob of restrictions on opium were born. There were people. many stark and frightening contrasts between Senator GIBBS (Queensland) (6.10 p.m.)— Australian and Chinese culture at that point I rise to respond to an issue that the Gover- and these were embodied in the denunciation nor-General touched upon in his address. His of opium smoking. The smoking of opium 672 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 became a symbol for the breakdown of crime instituted under prohibitionist strategy traditional values and norms within Australian may actually be exacerbating costs for law society. It represented all that was unfamiliar enforcement agencies. Prominent Australian and confronting about the new immigrants lawyer Chris Murphy agrees with this argu- and their culture. Instead of trying to under- ment and has emphasised the irony of incar- stand this new culture and integrate it into the cerating a person for crimes perpetrated in established social fabric, early governments order to finance their addiction when often simply sought to legislate against unsavoury that person’s addiction cannot be treated in aspects of it. gaol. By gaoling users under a prohibitionist The prohibition of opium smoking at the policy instead of providing additional treat- time reflected racist sentiment more accurately ment services, the federal government is than it reflected any actual danger posed by reinforcing a self-perpetuating cycle of crime the substance to the broader community. and punishment for Australian heroin users. Similarly, in Australia today, people reject the Last year the ACT heroin trial proposal notion of heroin as a legitimate pharma- gave the government the opportunity to test cotherapy because of their fear of and para- a new treatment option for severely dependent noia about heroin addicts—who are perceived heroin users. The trial would have yielded as a dangerous minority. Meanwhile, after the invaluable information for doctors and other prohibition of opium, a wide variety of treatment experts with regard to the potential medicines, the great majority of which con- for pharmaceutical heroin to be used in the tained heroin, morphine or cocaine as their treatment of addicts. Far from heralding the active ingredients, were supplied with in- mass production and distribution of heroin by creasing popularity by chemists and doctors. the government, the first stage of the trial The history of illicit drug legislation in would have been limited to 40 registered Australia bears testimony to a haphazard and dependent users from the ACT. Far from reactionary approach to policy formulation being a radical movement, the ACT heroin that has continued to the present day as trial proposal received support from a wide successive governments have bowed to both range of individuals and groups. internal and external political pressures. The report of the NSW commission into Australia became a signatory to the 1931 police corruption in 1997 recommended that Convention on the Suppression of Illicit the trial be allowed to go ahead. The report Traffic in Dangerous Drugs in response to claimed: pressure from the United States. This decision was taken against the wishes of the Australian Without such a trial its efficacy or otherwise would never be known. Until attempted, it is very difficult medical community at that time. to move forward or to consider alternative strat- Especially in the 1990s it is worth won- egies. dering why we have mirrored the American I believe that was a very sensible conclusion. approach to legislation on illicit drugs. I think The proposal had been further bolstered by it is widely recognised that North America the resounding success of the recent Swiss has largely failed in its so-called war on heroin trial. Retention rates and compliance drugs. The punitive war on drugs was with treatment were increased. The numbers launched in America in the 1970s by the of those with permanent employment doubled, Nixon administration. Decades later the war the incidence of criminal activity among on drugs continues in America, and the participants rapidly decreased and they experi- casualties continue to rise unabated. Surely enced improvements in their general health. advocating the ‘just say no’ message and Perhaps most importantly, however, a signifi- putting your head in the sand is no longer a cant number of participants decided to give viable means of addressing the problem. up heroin and switch to abstinence therapy in It is commonly accepted by many from the longer term. This is in stark contrast to within the treatment field that the punitive methadone maintenance therapy, which few approach to heroin users and drug related addicts ever fully recover from, even after Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 673 decades of treatment. A Swiss national refer- ed in response to the heroin trial proposal. endum in 1997 saw 71 per cent of the popula- With Dr Wooldridge out of the country and tion come out in favour of continuing the the Thredbo disaster a high priority, Mr trial. Clearly the Swiss have found that hordes Howard wavered under increasing pressure to of desperate heroin addicts will not descend abandon the trial. On 19 August federal upon their country the instant a trial is initiat- cabinet released a statement indicating that it ed. Indeed the Swiss have found that crime would not support the heroin trial, so years of has decreased as users are not forced to research and expert recommendations were become criminals to support their habit. overturned after a media smear campaign that Given all of this evidence and support for lasted a mere couple of weeks. Mr Howard the trial, what happened? What incredible rejected all of the recommendations placed purveyor of knowledge was more authoritative before him. In doing so, he dashed the hopes than all of these experts, politicians, doctors, and dreams of families and friends of heroin lawyers and scientists? What amazing all- users throughout the country who had been powerful force could outweigh the evidence eagerly awaiting a new treatment option that gathered by years of studying, compiling, might eventually offer a lifeline to their loved fasting and contemplation? Our Prime ones. Even more cruelly, he offered no alter- Minister was listening to the likes of John native on which they could pin their hopes for Laws and Alan Jones when he made his the future. decision. He had a health minister, Dr There are a number of new treatment Wooldridge, who was telling him it should go options worthy of further examination in the ahead. He had the entire Ministerial Council Australian context. The drug naltrexone has on Drug Strategy telling him this was a good been trialled overseas with very positive idea. He had the bipartisan support of a results and is currently being used in a num- number of leading political figures, not to ber of Australian treatment facilities. mention the support of countless doctors and Naltrexone has so far been linked primarily treatment professionals. Apparently none of with the controversial ultra-rapid detoxifica- this stood up to the scrutiny of a minority of tion technique but has also been used in more prominent media figures with dubious qualifi- conventional forms of maintenance therapy. cations and a bigoted understanding of the Naltrexone blocks a person’s opiate receptors issues. so that the administration of an opiate has no While Laws and Jones launched a misin- effect. A patient on maintenance therapy with formed and misguided scare campaign against naltrexone would therefore be unable to the trial on the airwaves, the Daily Telegraph obtain a high from injecting heroin. This followed suit in the print media. On 2 August helps people come to terms with their psycho- a photo of ministers from the Ministerial logical addiction, even after the physical Council on Drug Strategy appeared under the symptoms have gone. heading ‘Drug pedlars in business suits’. On A number of private treatment facilities 18 August an editorial from the same paper have already incorporated naltrexone as a referred to ‘the contentious, morally indefen- fundamental part of their treatment regime. sible and profoundly evil heroin trial’. I find Despite this, the government is yet to ac- it particularly disturbing that the Daily Tele- knowledge its potential as an alternative graph seems to have put itself up as the treatment option for Australian heroin users. guardian of public morality. It will be a sad It is very difficult to take the Prime Minister’s day in Australian history when a tabloid commitment to social policy seriously when newspaper is the guardian of the moral fabric he has failed to respond to a huge medical which binds our society, and it was rather breakthrough that has the potential to make a presumptuous of the Telegraph to assume that big difference for heroin users and their role. families. However, the Prime Minister was signifi- In addition, existing treatment facilities are cantly swayed by the media storm that erupt- seriously underfunded and are struggling to 674 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 provide even the most basic of support ser- agenda in Australia. The Australian people are vices to participants. One would assume that looking to him for leadership and some counselling services should be made available plausible answers to this most debilitating to all people trying to come to terms with a problem that is stealing our children and serious addiction, but the reality is that many threatening the very future of our society. of those on the methadone program continue Personally, I think Australia deserves better to be maintained without proper counselling, than John Howard. But since the Australian guidance or supervision. There simply are not people are counting on him, I hope he is enough services to go around, and the Prime serious about his commitment to social policy Minister seems unwilling to institute a and decides to reconsider his stance—not only reallocation of resources to fill the gaps. on the heroin trial but also with regard to So the dubious history of drug legislation other alternative treatments. in Australia continues in the 1990s along the We do not need a Prime Minister who is same path it embarked upon in the early trying to win votes by declaring that he is 1900s. Once again a section of the population tough on drugs. We need a Prime Minister has been marginalised and demonised to the who can look at the facts objectively and then point where the government can justify respond with courage to the needs of the legislating against them instead of for them. Australian people. While many heroin users In Australia today, heroin addicts are seen as supported the trial, it is not the free drugs that a threat to the moral and social fabric; their they were after. A young girl in an inner city lifestyle is completely alien to the understand- treatment facility made this clear to me last ing of most everyday Australians. Will we year when she said: legislate against them, punishing them for I want more than free heroin from my life. I their difference? Or will we legislate for actually want to be happy and accomplish things. them, with the ultimate aim of helping them and integrating them back into the communi- Don’t we all? ty? The decision is now ours to take, and I Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) trust we will consider it carefully. (6.28 p.m.)—The Senate is considering the The politics of this issue is a constant frust- address-in-reply. The motion reads: ration to those dealing with heroin use. Fam- May it please Your Excellency: ilies of heroin users and those in the treatment We, the Senate of the Commonwealth of Australia, field need help now to address the problem, in Parliament assembled, desire to express our and the intricacies of party politics are just loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign, and to another barrier. I recently attended a national thank Your Excellency for the speech which you remembrance ceremony for people who have have been pleased to address to Parliament. lost their lives through drug use, and let me I sincerely hope that is the last time that I will assure you that the message there was one of be addressing a motion such as that. I say that unity, not one of politics. People expect us as in the knowledge that some time next year their elected representatives to address the there will be a referendum in Australia on issues that are worrying them the most, and whether or not this country shall become a this is one of them. I therefore advocate a bi- republic. I have great confidence that that partisan approach to addressing the issue. This referendum will be carried and that, following is a wide-ranging social problem that affects that referendum, Australia will indeed become all Australians, and as their elected represen- a republic. It is my fervent hope that that will tatives we have a duty to work together to occur prior to the next election. So when the find a solution. The Prime Minister must learn opening of parliament next occurs, it will be to listen and become responsive to the needs ‘the President’ or a person by some other of the Australian people. But first he must name who will open this parliament and make learn to listen to his own colleagues. the address which the parliament will then be It is Mr Howard’s responsibility to bring pleased to receive and to thank His or Her drug law reform back onto the political Excellency for. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 675

I do have great faith, and even greater faith well. He took it in good humour, but not following the Constitutional Convention always without an argument. If there was one which was held in Canberra earlier this year, thing in life that Jack really enjoyed, it was attended by some 148 people—some of whom a good, forceful argument. were elected and some of whom were ap- Jack Marks was an extraordinary individual pointed—who came down with recommenda- and I owe him more than I think I owe any tions on the direction in which Australia other human being other than my immediate should go. I was not a supporter of the con- family. He probably is the person mostly to vention in the first instance, and certainly not blame—or mostly to credit, depending on a supporter of the appointment of people to which way you look at it—for my presence the convention. I was not a supporter of the in this parliament. Certainly it was his oratory method of election of those who were elected that convinced me to not only become a to the convention. I think that, with the member of the Amalgamated Engineering benefit of hindsight, those people who deter- Union and on the same occasion become shop mined the methods of election would not have steward for that organisation in a place called been quite so supportive of them had they Dillingham Shipyards, in Fremantle, Western known what the results were going to be. It Australia, but also to do so at a time when I is common knowledge now in my state of was actually a member of the Australasian Western Australia that the representatives of Society of Engineers. So it was a rapid the Australian Republican Movement signifi- introduction into the Australian trade union cantly won the poll in that state under a movement. Jack was a mentor in my life, as voluntary voting method, and I am pleased to a member of the union, as a branch official, have made some small contribution to that as a shop steward and as a conference deleg- success as a public representative of that state. ate at both state and federal levels. The people whom we elected to come over to the convention from Western Australia made While he was a mentor and a father figure eminent contributions. One of them, a most in many respects, he was also a very great significant individual, has since been elected mate and a very great confidant in times when as the member for Cowan and sits in the other a young, brash individual needed some guid- place as the people’s representative from that ance and needed some advice. He would electorate in Western Australia. I am referring certainly give that to me. He provided an to Graham Edwards—the Hon. Graham enormous amount of support and wisdom, and Edwards, as he was a minister in a previous indeed advice, at the time of my first mar- Western Australian government. riage breaking up. For a time, he and I shared accommodation—bachelors together, both of I make note of the address-in-reply out of whom had a penchant for red wine, and many courtesy to the parliament, because that is the other things. motion before the chamber, but also I wish to use this opportunity to pay tribute to another Senator Quirke—Is that where you got great republican—but one who was also a your ties from? great royalist—who unfortunately passed Senator McKIERNAN—At that time I away on 2 October 1998. I am referring to used to be pretty tieless, but I still enjoyed the Albert John Marks, or Jack Marks, or, as he red wine. Jack was, as I said, an amazing was more commonly known, Marksy. Marksy individual. It was his oratory ability and his was a republican. All his life, and certainly lifestyle that encouraged me to get involved during the life I knew him, he was a republi- in politics in Australia. My involvement in the can. He was a royalist merely because he union movement started first; my political supported the East Perth Football Club, whose involvement started afterwards, and both he nickname was the Royals. So he had this and another official of the later Amalgamated dichotomy in life, which he didn’t have a Metal Workers Union, Harold Peden, were problem in explaining to people, and we were both members of the Communist Party of quite happy from time to time to remind him Australia, where I started my political think- of the fact that he was indeed a royalist as ing in this country. 676 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

I actually left the Communist Party before Jack was one of the individuals targeted by Jack did. It was something that I discussed the then Premier of Western Australia in 1979 with him at the time because I was frustrated when he was arrested with Laurie Carmichael by where it was going, and indeed his at the airport and charged under the infamous frustrations were brought to bear but he felt section 54B of the Police Act—an action it was not the time for him to leave the party. which the government later very much regret- He gave me great encouragement in joining ted because the whole of Australia was the Australian Labor Party after a space of brought to a standstill on a number of occa- time, and he himself joined the Labor Party sions as the working people defended their later on in life. Had he joined before or right to meet with more than three people at around the time that I had joined, perhaps he a time without having to ask for police might have been, as Kim Beazley said in the permission. oratory at his remembrance celebration in Jack made that contribution, and I was very Hyde Park, a Premier of WA. Nothing was pleased to be at the memorial ceremony in beyond Jack Marks. He lives very fondly in Hyde Park, just opposite where he lived, on my memory. 9 October 1998 to share with his family and We also have a living reminder of Jack other loved ones the memory of a very re- Marks which shows the benefit of his persua- markable man. He was one of a kind, the siveness. One afternoon, around 15 years ago, champion of the battlers, and a man who my present wife, Jackie, and her children could break bread with either prince or paup- were called over to his place in Stirling er. As the tribute to him that was distributed Street, Highgate, where he told us of a pend- on the day said, he had an irreverent sense of ing overseas trip to the United States. Jack humour and there was no bulldust about him. had a cat, and his cat had kittens, and he This was so even on his deathbed. I was convinced the children that they could save at lucky enough to have the opportunity to visit least one of those kittens. him in his final days. When the doctor re- vived him, he abused the doctor and said, I do not, and did not at that time, have a ‘Don’t you ever do that again. You’ve got love of cats, but I—and Jackie as well—got enough film in the can. You’re not filming lumbered with this black furry thing which we Ben-Hur.’ The doctor said he would not do it. called AJ after Albert Jack Marks. That cat is That was the end of the life of Jack Marks, still with us. It is a very fussy cat. It does not but his memory lives on. share Jack’s love of red wine, but it certainly Senator COONEY (Victoria) (6.40 p.m.)— shares his love of contrariness and can, in its I want to respond to the speech by His Excel- own way, be particularly argumentative—to lency the Governor-General on the occasion a certain extent, it has the characteristics of of the opening of the 39th Parliament on 10 my mate Jack. He has gone, but his memory November 1998. The Governor-General lives on. touched on a number of subjects and devel- I have spoken briefly about his trade union oped themes on others. The topics included involvement and some of his political in- economic challenges, a new tax system, volvement. He finished his life as a very reform in the community context, jobs and active citizen of Western Australia. He be- workplaces, our future generations, and so on. came the first mayor of the town of Vincent The address-in-reply looked to the future. It in Western Australia, a town which evolved is interesting that it should do so, because a after the metropolitan area of the city of Perth challenge is before the Australian people at was broken up to form four different munici- the moment as to how we go into the future. palities. Jack made enormous contributions When the Governor-General spoke of a new during his life—in his personal life to his tax system, he was speaking about the new family and his loved ones, and to the trade tax system put forward by the coalition. union movement and workers generally right Central to that new tax system is the goods around Australia. and services tax. How new is the concept of Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 677 a goods and services tax? How new is the most able to bear the burden of paying money concept of a tax on consumption? I will read for the proper running of the country are from a work by Thomas Paine, a great thinker relieved of that obligation and those who are in the 18th century. I will read from his work least able to do it, the poor, have it cast upon The Rights of Man. them. When in this address that the Governor- Thomas Paine made two contributions in General gave to parliament it is said that there the work that is now called The Rights of will be a new tax system, and when it is Man. The one I will quote from is from remembered that a central feature of that new 1792—well over 200 years ago. He was tax system is the consumption tax, on reflec- talking about taxes. This is what he had to tion it hardly fits the description of a new tax say about taxes over 200 years ago. People system. might agree or disagree with what Thomas Not only that, what is pointed out in the Paine said at that point in time, but what is Rights of Man by Thomas Paine is that, for clear is that he was talking about it over 200 the relief of those in distress, money is need- years ago, and so to call the goods and ed and if that money is taken from those who services tax a new tax system is hardly can least afford it there is an injustice. That accurate. Thomas Paine said: is quite clearly the case not only in the 1790s Notwithstanding taxes have increased and but in the 1990s in Australia. There will be a multiplied upon every article of common consump- lot of discussion over the next few months tion, the land-tax, which more particularly affects about taxes and there will be plenty of oppor- this ‘pillar,’ has diminished. In 1788, the amount tunity for me to address that issue again. I of the land-tax was £1,950,000, which is half a repeat that it is not a new tax, it is an old tax million less than it produced almost a hundred going back centuries, and a tax which over years ago, notwithstanding the rentals are in many instances doubled since that period. 200 years ago was condemned for the defects it had then—and there are holes now. Just to put that in context, he was saying there were two forms of taxes: there was land Another thing I want to talk about is that tax, which fell upon those who had landed there is stress again and again in the econom- estates—in those days the aristocrats—and ic policies pursued by this government and there was a tax on consumption. What Tho- pursued not only by this government but by mas Paine was complaining about was that many people in the corporate sector which the taxes on the aristocrats were diminishing requires that expenses be cut, that employ- and those on consumption, which hit the poor, ment be shed and that the interest that we were increasing. He went on to say: should all have, according to this philosophy, is in the bottom line and nothing else. That Before the coming of the Hanoverians, the taxes again is not a new concept. I go this time to were divided in nearly equal proportions between the land and articles of consumption, the land one of our own great authors, Banjo Paterson, bearing rather the largest share: but since that era, Andrew Barton Paterson, who said in a poem nearly thirteen millions annually of new taxes have that was published in the Bulletin on 20 been thrown upon consumption. The consequence December 1890, well over a hundred years of which has been a constant increase in the ago— number and wretchedness of the poor, and in the amount of the poor-rates. Yet here again the burden Senator Woodley—I like the poem A Bush does not fall in equal proportions on the aristocracy Christening. with the rest of the community. Their residences, Senator COONEY—This is On Kyley’s whether in town or country, are not mixed with the habitations of the poor. They live apart from Run, Senator Woodley. I think it is set in distress, and the expense of relieving it. It is in Queensland. A lot of his poems were set in manufacturing towns and labouring villages that Queensland. those burdens press the heaviest; in many of which Debate interrupted. it is one class of poor supporting another. Thomas Paine is showing that through the tax DOCUMENTS system, and through taxes being thrown onto The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Sena- consumption, the effect is that those who are tor Bartlett)—Order! I am sorry to interrupt 678 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 you, Senator, as you were about to burst forth funds are in very serious decline and have into verse. It being 6.50 p.m., I now move to been so for quite a period of time. This has the consideration of government documents. all been happening as the contributions that I have been paying as a personal member of the Private Health Insurance Administration funds have been increasing dramatically over Council the years. Indeed, as this report tells us, they Senator McKIERNAN (Western Australia) have gone up by seven per cent in the last (6.50 p.m.)—I move: financial year, the year to which it refers. That the Senate take note of the document. That is talking about the funds overall. I received this document only today and I Membership has declined. Now just over 30 find it to be an enthralling document, and also per cent of the population has private insur- one that is particularly useful because of the ance. The Medibank Private fund—which number of letters that I am receiving in my comes up later in the papers list—has actually electorate office and indeed the few letters increased membership in the year. I suppose that I am receiving in the parliamentary that might be attributable to all of the adver- office. Let me in the first instance refer to the tising that it does and to the $118.29 per letters I am receiving. I am grateful for them person that it spends in servicing each mem- because they have helped me make up my ber. I also note that, despite the dramatic mind as to how I am going to vote on the decline in membership and the enormous proposed 30 per cent rebate for private health pressures that appear to be on the health insurance. insurance funds throughout Australia, this Senator Ian Macdonald—You haven’t particular document tells me on page 16: made up your mind recently. Management expenses for the year ended 30 June Senator McKIERNAN—I note that Sena- 1998 were $540 million representing a 1.9% tor Macdonald is here. He looks so much like increase over the prior year amount. Noel Crichton-Browne it is amazing. Senator I find it extraordinary, when the funds are in Macdonald has prompted me to declare that such diabolical trouble, that their management indeed I am a member of a private health costs are increasing. If the largest fund is fund. If there is a pecuniary interest I declare actually increasing its management in a period it at this point in time. when the overall fund numbers are declining, The letters did help me make up my mind. where is the money going? How is it being The fact is that the health funds went to some spent? Who is benefiting from it? lengths—and I am particularly referring to the My initial thought when this proposal was documentation that originated from the Hospi- mooted in the election was that this would be tal Benefit Fund in Western Australia that was a lovely subject for a parliamentary committee sent to all their members to be sent on to me inquiry. After the decision earlier today I am and other members of parliament—to encour- not going to move down that track—I think age us to vote for the proposed 30 per cent there are enough inquiries under way—but reduction. I have looked at my own personal that is the way I would really like to go: to private health insurance in the past to see have the health funds and the health fund whether I could continue to afford to pay for directors come in front of a parliamentary it. I have examined that and tossed up wheth- committee and tell us how they are spending er, taking all risks into account, I could their money. continue to support it. I would also like to have Australian Medi- Obviously, a fund such as HBF wants as cal Association representatives, who wrote to many people as possible to remain in it. I me today in Canberra offering me some wonder if I would want the taxpayer to come submissions to support their proposal, in front in with such a subsidy in what is essentially of us and justify the costs that their members a private enterprise field. That is where this charge. I refer in particular to gap fees. particular report comes to help me, because it People take out medical insurance and pay for tells me that the private health insurance the insurance but that does not pay the overall Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 679 hospital bill. Where does the extra money go? or the confidence necessary for the broader Where do the gap funds go? That is why I community to accept this technology—and would like to see a parliamentary inquiry into that it is acting in their best interests—or to this whole issue. (Time expired) take up its beneficial parts. Question resolved in the affirmative. This is not about uninformed criticism. Genetic technology is very new and likely to Genetic Manipulation Advisory have a huge impact on our community. I hope Committee it will bring about improved health care in the Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- way we have already seen cloned insulin and tralia—Deputy Leader of the Australian other drugs radically improve lives. However, Democrats) (6.57 p.m.)—I move: I also want to be sure we do not end up with That the Senate take note of the document. the less desirable aspects of this technology. This is the annual report of the Department of I am a keen advocate of government in- Industry, Science and Resources Genetic volvement in industries to try to set out the Manipulation Advisory Committee. It is on regulatory framework necessary to get Aus- one of my favourite topics, as you may know. tralian industry going. We have seen a good This is a particularly welcome report, setting start on this by the new minister in the regula- out the activities of the GMAC, a non- tion of space activities. We have had a wel- statutory body responsible for overseeing the come recognition of this from the Minister for development and use of novel genetic ma- Communications, Information Technology and nipulation techniques in this country. The the Arts, and I hope we will have the same scope of GMAC is: response from the government about gene technology. . . . any experiment involving the construction and/or propagation of viroids, viruses, cells or In a press release dated 30 October 1997 organisms of novel genotype produced by genetic the then Minister for Primary Industries and manipulation which are either unlikely to occur in Energy and the Minister for the Environment nature, or likely to pose a hazard to public health or the environment. said that there is hope for positive changes. This press release proclaims new regulation The GMAC issues guidelines which it hopes for gene technology: will be followed. These include procedures to The Federal Government has decided to introduce be followed by institutions and researchers a package of measures designed to provide appro- intending to undertake genetic manipulation priate regulation of gene technology. work, and details for containment facilities. The problem with the GMAC is that it is not I look forward to this legislation. a body which is backed by legislation. In fact, As part of this proposal I believe we will it has terms of reference to oversee the devel- establish a Gene Technology Office to under- opment and use of genetic manipulation take a number of functions presently under- techniques and advise the minister about this. taken by GMAC. I hope the powers of this It is a good idea without teeth and another office will include uniform, comprehensive example of the government’s present notions and compulsory risk assessments together that regulation by voluntary compliance is with effective mechanisms to enforce the satisfactory. Sadly, there is no compulsion GTO decisions. about this whole scheme and that is its funda- I have a number of concerns about the mental weakness. release of genetically modified organisms. When it comes to self-regulation—despite Many of the cells and organisms that are their best intentions—voluntary codes always being subjected to genetic manipulation have hide the potential activities of disreputable near relatives in the environment that are able, organisations and disguise the fact that there under ideal conditions, to incorporate modi- is no guarantee of protection. Without com- fied genetic materials. Once a gene has been pulsion through clearly stated guidelines and incorporated into a population of cells or legislated rules, there will not be the certainty organisms then that gene will form part of the 680 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 gene pool for that cell or organism. For tions whether a tariff is the most appropriate example, some of Australia’s major seed means of remedying serious injury and facili- crops have closely related weeds that infest tating adjustment in the Australian pig meat those crops with similar life cycles so that industry. The Productivity Commission is of genetic material is at a high risk of entering the view that fixing the current injury and the weed population through pollen transfer. facilitating adjustment is better targeted with If the crop has a herbicide resistant gene and a combination of direct assistance to those the related weed infests that crop then there forced to leave the industry and appropriate is a good chance that the resistant gene will short-term assistance to facilitate an expansion enter the weed gene pool because of the of export capacity. selective pressure applied by the herbicide The Senate would be well aware of the which will select for herbicide resistant range of government assistance that has been weeds. provided to this very important industry. The There are real risks associated with this new $19 million pork industry adjustment package technology and we need to have the regula- has been settled over the last 12 months or so tory mechanisms to deal with this. GMAC has and includes a $10 million National Pork been a good organisation to start this process, Industry Development Program, an $8 million despite my concerns, which are reflected by Pigmeat Processing Grants Program that aims a number of groups in the community. I to stimulate investment in the processing suspect that some broader social and environ- sector and $1 million under FarmBis for a mental issues may have been subsumed by notional skills enhancement training initiative obfuscation of scientific evidence and the for pork producers. Funding approvals under selective claims of particular interest groups. the $10 million National Pork Industry Devel- I seek leave to continue my remarks later. opment Program commenced in July 1998 and Leave granted; debate adjourned. to date some $2.8 million have been approved by the government for projects in the produc- Productivity Commission tion, processing and retail sectors. Senator SANDY MACDONALD (New There is much work to be done, but in South Wales) (7.03 p.m.)—I move: response to the Productivity Commission That the Senate take note of the document. report the government will be consulting with This report of the Productivity Commission’s representatives of the pig meat industry and independent safeguards inquiry, titled Pig and all other interested parties in developing the Pigmeat Industries: Safeguard Action Against best and most useful response. This inquiry is Imports—report No. 3, into imported frozen the first safeguards inquiry Australia has pork was handed to the Treasurer on 13 undertaken under the new rules that came into November and has now been released publicly operation under the WTO in 1995. It is being following tabling in the Senate today. The closely watched by our trading partners. The inquiry was held to determine whether the outcome of the inquiry will be notified to the WTO safeguards action is warranted against World Trade Organisation and we will also imports of certain frozen pig meat and also to consult with Canada as the major supplier report on the factors affecting the profitability prior to responding to the report. and competitiveness of domestic pig farming The pig meat industry is a big and vital and pork processing industries. industry, especially for many family farmers The Productivity Commission has made a right across the country. Times have been number of findings that will need to be very difficult. I am aware of that. However, considered carefully by the government, exports are growing. They are up 80 per cent including attributing injury to the impact of this financial year. The industry is working to increased imports and the finding of a tempo- restructure itself. Assistance has been given rary measure to remedy that injury. The by the government, with more to come. We options include a temporary import tariff, but will look at a further response as a result of the Productivity Commission seriously ques- the report of the Productivity Commission. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 681

We said it would be tabled immediately it in the pig industry knew months ago. The was provided to the government, and it has opposition parties, and the Democrats as part been. It makes some interesting suggestions of that, have been urging the government to and it acknowledges the very constructive role take action. the government has played in this very im- After this delay, as we consult and get more portant and widespread industry. reports which continue to tell us what we Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (7.08 know, I urge the government to really take p.m.)—I also wish to speak on the Productivi- action at this time. There is no point our ty Commission report into the pig and pig continuing to allow an industry to hang by its meat industries. I agree with some of the fingernails while we consult more people remarks that Senator Sandy Macdonald has when we know exactly what the cause of made; in fact, I probably agree with most of injury is and in fact we have, under the WTO them. But I say that the government is going criteria, the action that we can take. The to have to do more than it is projecting at the Democrats want immediate action now that present time. There is no doubt that the the Productivity Commission has cleared any Productivity Commission has found that the hurdles to implementing safeguard action for influx of cheap imports from Canada and the pork industry. I put on the record what the Denmark has caused serious injury to the Pork Council itself has said with regard to Australian pork industry. We knew that; we what it believes the government should do: knew it months ago. Yet the government, A temporary tariff quota is the most appropriate despite having a number of reports which told measure for the industry. We will be calling on the it that, decided to commission another report, Government to implement the tariff quota system which told it the same thing again. proposed by the industry. There is no doubt that the Productivity They are not asking for something outside of Commission found that safeguard action is the WTO; they are simply asking that the justified under World Trade Organisation appropriate action, which is within the WTO criteria. Those criteria allow for a quota, a guidelines, be applied at this time. I call on tariff quota or a tariff to remedy serious injury the government to do that immediately. There caused by imports. It is quite clear that I is no need for any further consultation, reports cannot read out all of the report but, so that or commissions of inquiry—what we want is the Senate will not be in any doubt about some political action. The federal government what the report says, let me just read into the must immediately implement a tariff quota on record one or two very important paragraphs. pork imports so that Australian families and Under ‘Serious injury’ it reads: Australian pork farmers can benefit from the Although there are no hard and fast rules for Christmas peak in demand. We want immedi- determining serious injury, the Commission con- ate action, because this Christmas we want siders that for the first half of 1998, the loss of Australians to be eating Aussie ham and not market share, decline in price and reduced profita- imported ham. I seek leave to continue my bility recorded by the industry constitute serious remarks later. injury in terms of the WTO Safeguards Agreement. Leave granted; debate adjourned. That follows a paragraph which says that serious injury was undoubtedly caused by Aboriginal Land Commissioner imports. I will read a little more into the Senator ALLISON (Victoria) (7.12 p.m.)— record. It says: I move: The Commission has examined a wide range of That the Senate take note of the report. factors which may have contributed to the injury described above and has concluded that increased In the context of the Aboriginal Land Com- imports were the dominant cause of low pig prices missioner annual report for 1997-98, I note and reduced profitability. that indigenous people in the Northern Terri- There is no doubt about it. They are quite tory, specifically at Kakadu, have had a very unequivocal and they nail their colours to the significant victory today. Just hours ago the mast. We now know what I think most people UNESCO World Heritage Committee released 682 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 its report on its investigation into the Jabiluka now trigger the World Heritage Act by issu- uranium mine. This was a high-level team of ing a proclamation over the area. This can of scientists who came to Kakadu last month to course go to the Governor-General and be consider whether on environmental and completed within 24 hours. Then the minister cultural grounds the Kakadu world heritage is able to issue the determination. area should be placed on the world heritage The report also states that there are unac- endangered list. This report unambiguously ceptably high levels of scientific uncertainty, says that it should. The government has been lack of participation, negotiation and com- humiliated and disgraced by this report, and munication with traditional owners. There are the Democrats will be calling on the Minister negative regional and socio-cultural impacts for the Environment and Heritage in the of this development on Aboriginal people. Senate tomorrow to trigger the World Heri- The report recommends that we should re- tage Act to issue a proclamation and, on scind the Koongarra Project Area Act 1981 to gazettal—which can be done in 24 hours, I change the boundaries to accommodate a understand—make a determination to stop the mine at Koongarra. The report also says that mine. The report says: there has been a breakdown in trust with After assessing the information made available to indigenous Australians. the mission in the background documents and stakeholder submissions and through site visits and The commission is of the view that it is overflights, the mission has concluded that Kakadu incumbent on the Australian government to National Park is exposed to a number of serious recognise the special relationship of the Mirra threats which are placing it under both ascertained to their land and their rights to participate in and potential danger. decisions that affect them. The report says That comes as no surprise to the Democrats, that the Australian government should recon- and I don’t think it will be a surprise to the sider the status of the 1982 agreement and the 60 per cent and more of Australians who 1991 transfer to ownership to ensure mainte- think we should not be mining uranium nance of the fundamental rights of traditional within or even near a world heritage area. owners. The commission concluded: And it will come as no surprise to the Mirra The existence of sacred sites, dreaming sites, and people from the Northern Territory, who have trails and other areas of particular spiritual signifi- been fighting this mine because of the dam- cance to the Aboriginal people were not fully age it will do to their ancient culture. They do considered in the course of establishing: not want the mine and, contrary to what (1) the original boundaries of the Jabiluka lease; Senator Hill says, it has brought no benefits (2) the mine construction site; to Aboriginal people in Jabiru or to the (3) the boundaries of the areas identified as signifi- surrounding area. It is a disgrace that the cant by the Australian Heritage Commission; and minister has been saying that this mine poses (4) the boundaries of the World Heritage Area. no threat to Kakadu. He has let the mining I suggest this report is a victory for common- company proceed on that basis and he has sense and a deep humiliation for a govern- ignored the science and the scientists, conser- ment which cares more about the short-term vationists and ordinary Australians. dollar than for the environment or for its The report noted the serious concerns and reputation on the international stage. preoccupations expressed by some of Question resolved in the affirmative. Australia’s most eminent scientists as to the unacceptably high degree of scientific uncer- Consideration tainties relating to the Jabiluka mine design, The following government documents were tailings disposal and possible impacts on considered and not debated: catchment ecosystems. The report singles out Australian Institute of Marine Science—Report Environment Australia for their failure to for 1997-98. Motion to take note of document properly present the environmental issues. moved by Senator Hogg. Debate adjourned till One wonders whether this might have been at Thursday at general business, Senator Hogg in the orders of the minister. The minister must continuation. Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 683

Australian Rail Track Corporation Limited— regime, which it was believed would deliver Statement of corporate intent, August 1998. a politically and economically secure Indo- Motion to take note of document moved by nesia. But, like all good foreign policies based Senator Woodley. Debate adjourned till Thursday at general business, Senator Woodley in continu- on self-interest, a balance is needed. And on ation. any analysis, Australia lost its balance. Health Insurance Commission—Report for 1997- Within a generation, the policy has been 98. Motion to take note of document moved by shown to be a failure. Australia too frequently Senator Forshaw. Debate adjourned till Thursday turned a blind eye to the corruption and only at general business, Senator Forshaw in continu- ation. whispered its dissent to human rights abuses. For all this neighbourly bonding we saw Remuneration Tribunal—Report for 1997-98. Motion to take note of document moved by nothing coming—not the economic, social or Senator Forshaw. Debate adjourned till Thursday political collapse. The foreign policy we spent at general business, Senator Forshaw in continu- decades manicuring can hardly be said to ation. have built up any useful insight into Indo- Wet Tropics Management Authority—Report for nesia. For all the achievements the department 1997-98. Motion to take note of document of foreign affairs would claim from their moved by Senator Woodley. Debate adjourned softly, softly relationship over the past 20 till Thursday at general business, Senator years, the lack of achievement has been Woodley in continuation. greater. Just look at today’s results. The truth ADJOURNMENT is that the Suharto regime ploughed on re- gardless, without meaningful political, social The PRESIDENT—Order! It being nearly or economic reform. 7.20 p.m., I propose the question: That the Senate do now adjourn. Now that fundamentally the power of the day has gone up in smoke, Australia’s foreign Indonesia policy requires a new approach to deal with Senator McGAURAN (Victoria) (7.18 the new circumstances. Ironically, given the p.m.)—As the Senate would be aware, there precarious situation Indonesia finds itself in, has been a resurgence of student demon- a softly, softly approach is more relevant now strations in Indonesia which left 14 dead at than it was then. I accept that we must under- the hands of the army and hundreds wounded. stand the dilemma the new government finds Now, with the news this week of Muslim itself in. On one hand, law and order must be mobs attacking Christian churches and lynch- preserved and minorities protected from the ing Christians, it is fair evidence to what street rioters; on the other hand, the military degree our neighbouring country has disinte- presence on the street must be kept from grated. Indonesia’s economic and political turning into brutal repression. Provided the turmoil is a legacy of the Suharto regime. In new government of Indonesia is moving a short space of time the Indonesian facade, towards major reform, we should understand which the Australian government has hailed their dilemma and tailor our responses accord- for 20 years or more, has disintegrated into a ingly. Yet this is no time, nor any excuse, to poverty stricken country on the political diminish any effort to resolve the East Timor precipice. question. In fact, it has never been more It is true to say that much of Australia’s timely for Australia to reassess its foreign thinking over those years was designed to policy regarding East Timor. avoid the consequences of an archipelago I urge a reassessment involving a stronger with the multitude of ethnic communities and stance for a free East Timor—one that is religions at war with each other, the conse- more aligned to the international community quences of which are obvious. The corner- and, more particularly, the United Nations. stone of Australia’s foreign policy towards All the old arguments used to sustain Indonesia over the last 20 years plus has been Indonesia’s occupation of East Timor are now designed to avoid this possibility. Our foreign either well and truly outdated or irrelevant to policy therefore gravitated to the Suharto the emerging Indonesia of today. For exam- 684 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 ple, the claim that Indonesia’s invasion and Banking: Local Government and continued occupation has been necessary to Regional Australia prevent a little Cuba developing can no longer Senator MACKAY (Tasmania) (7.25 stand. Perhaps in 1975, at the height of the p.m)—I thank Senator McGauran for making Cold War, this had some validity. With the some very interesting remarks. Tonight I end of the Cold War, the tagging of East would like to talk briefly about banking Timor as a little Cuba can no longer be justi- services, local government and regional fied. Another example is the claim that the Australia. On 20 June 1996 the Treasurer, Portuguese were ‘lousy colonisers’ who are Peter Costello, told the House of Representa- now just in it for themselves and therefore tives that: have no right to reclaim their colony. This has If there is any suggestion of anti-competitive been debunked by the fact that Portugal does activity or collusion in fees and charges, the not seek to recolonise. Rather, they are government does have the option of referring the pushing for a free East Timor at the United matter to the relevant body, the Australian Compe- Nations—at the request of the East Timorese. tition and Consumer Commission. And we will take that action if necessary, or if any information arises I believe the following steps are needed to of inadequate competition in that area of products increase pressure on the Indonesian govern- as well. ment to accelerate a resolution of the East Timor question. First, support East Timorese Yesterday, in response to calls for the govern- participation at the United Nations-sponsored ment to take action on what seems to be peace talks between Portugal and Indonesia. exponentially increasing bank fees, Senator Second, Australia should offer to play a Rod Kemp said: greater financial and administrative role in the Bank customers can maximise the benefits of United Nations-sponsored peace talks. Third, competition by actively shopping around for the best products, services and prices to satisfy their Australia should establish a consulate in East needs. Timor which would enhance the monitoring of human rights abuses. Fourth, Australia It seems that these two statements, at worst, should forge closer relations with the Portu- directly contradict each other and, at best, guese government thereby dispelling the inter- seem completely different. The latest line national perception that Australia may have a from the government seems to be that if biased approach to the East Timor question. customers are not happy with bank fees, bank Fifth, seek the release of Xanana Gusmao. closures and loss of services around the Sixth, maintain, into the foreseeable future, country, then they should simply swap banks. the suspension of military exercises with the This government—or, certainly, Senator Indonesian armed forces. This would maintain Kemp in relation to the remarks he made— the pressure for meaningful progress on the clearly has no real understanding of the Indonesian government. Seventh, support an terrible impact of bank closures on regional Indonesian-Australian inquiry into the 1975 Australian communities. Many people in deaths of the five Australian journalists at regional Australia now have no choice at all Balibo. Those responsible must be brought to when it comes to banking, which makes the account for their crimes, as much for the sake concept of shopping around a bit senseless. of the families as for Australia’s own code of More and more communities are losing their justice. basic banking services, and the Prime I concede that if Australia were to do any Minister simply mouths platitudes of sympa- immediate backflip on its foreign policy thy whilst no action is taken. towards East Timor, it could definitely con- Regional Australians can only be offended fuse the Indonesians and, perhaps, even create by the Prime Minister’s statement to the a hostile neighbour. So I am not asking for a National Farmers Federation last night, report- backflip or a great leap of change in our ed in the Australian Financial Review today. foreign policy. But I believe, for the reasons He said: I have given, that we need a definite shift in Another matter I want to acknowledge is the great our foreign policy. concern in rural Australia about the disappearance Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 685 of services. Some of these services, the loss of they will. But local government has expressed them, has been very painful, and some of it is great concern about the continuing withdrawal unavoidable and some is irreversible. of services from regional Australia. In fact, it The final insult was his claim that he was: has been voicing its concern for quite some very conscious of the concern within rural Australia time. about the presence of bank branches. In 1997, the General Assembly of Local I would interpolate there the ‘lack’ of pres- Government, a gathering of over 700 council- ence of bank branches. Under the Howard lors from around Australia, considered the government in 1997-98 we have seen approxi- issue of regional banking services. Earlier this mately 500 bank branches close. Yet the year the Australian Local Government Asso- government still claims that customers can ciation made a submission to the House of shop around and that competition will ulti- Representatives Standing Committee on mately sort it out. But that clearly is not Financial Institutions and Public Administra- happening. tion inquiry into banking services in regional Australia. In its submission, the ALGA said: One particularly significant sector that has expressed deep concern about continuing While government may not have a direct role in maintaining banking services, it has one in ensuring closures, particularly in the face of large that the outcomes of commercial decisions of profits for the banks, is local government. business reflect adequately the needs of rural And those profits are enormous, as a number Australia and take account of the intrinsic values of senators have alluded to today. The big of community and diversity. four earned a pre-tax profit of $6.29 billion ‘Hear, Hear!’ we all say. ALGA pointed out this year. Perhaps this government has not that the issue was a matter of both: heard clearly enough the message on banking which has been coming from local govern- . equity of access to services for those Australians whose circumstances dictate a life outside the ment over the last year. After all, it is clear major urban centres of the nation; and from the tax package, which seeks to rid the Commonwealth of any direct relationship with . Maintenance of the viability of rural local communities in the name of diversity and their local government, that councils and their intrinsic value. communities do not seem to rate very highly on this government’s agenda. At the recent General Assembly of Local Government, which I was pleased to be able The government has consistently ignored to attend, a motion on banking services was local government and clearly underestimates carried. That motion reads: its importance to the community with regard to a range of issues. Despite the ongoing The Australian Local Government Association calls on the Federal Government to obligate banks to protestations from the Australian Local return to providing banking services to towns Government Association, the government has throughout regional Australia, particularly in view effectively washed its hands of any real re- of the large profits of the four major banks and the sponsibility and any national approach to large number of towns that have lost banking local government by proposing to hand over services and the associated socioeconomic problems responsibility for local government funding to which have occurred as a result. the states—something which is regarded with The situation has got so serious—not just in deep trepidation, particularly by local councils regional Australia but in the cities as well— in Victoria. They propose handing local that local government in NSW seriously government to the states with little, if any, considered withdrawing some $4.4 billion consultation and no guarantee that funding worth of business from ‘recalcitrant banks’ will be improved, or even maintained, in the and depositing these revenues with communi- long term. There has not been a clear signal ty friendly financial institutions. So effectively from the government with respect to that. It they are considering voting with their feet. is also clear that the coalition has not yet Local government has shown that it is very listened to local government with regard to concerned about the effect bank closures have tax reform, and there is no indication that on its local communities, but this government 686 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 does not seem to care. This government . Develop a Charter of Regional Banking Respon- stands by while banks increase their fees and sibility to define the obligations to rural and continue to close services. remote communities which banks should reason- ably be prepared to meet; What are communities to do in these cir- . Encourage voluntary arrangements to provide cumstances? Certainly, shopping around in banking services; and Ensure that through a many small towns where there is only one Regional Banking Services Fund (contributed to bank is, as I indicated, simply not an option. by all licensed banks) services are maintained Once again, if the government actually did and restored where justifiable. listen to local government it might get a few We knew we were pretty much right on the ideas. The General Assembly of Local button when the banks screamed the house Government also addressed what to do when down, particularly in relation to that latter banks do close. Their motion reads: point. Will the coalition match that? Will the The Australian Local Government Association calls coalition do anything about it? At the mo- upon the Federal Government to negotiate an ment, despite the immense coverage that this agreement with the Australian Bankers Association issue is getting, nothing seems to be emanat- to develop protocols concerning the closure of any ing from the government. We need action on bank, and in particular those branches located in this. Local government knows that govern- rural and regional Australia. Such protocols take ment cannot just stand around and watch from account of the social and economic impacts on communities, including: the sidelines as local communities are hit by bank fee increases and bank closures. Why . Alternative Service Provision doesn’t the government seem to understand . Training in other banking techniques (tele- this? We call on the government to take banking, giro payments, ATM network develop- action in this regard. ment, links to Credit Union Partnership arrange- ments and such like); Government Documents: Executive . Consideration of Agency/Joint Venture Service Power provision. Senator MURRAY (Western Australia) Local government knows what happens when (7.35 p.m.)—I wish to expand on some of the banks withdraw from communities. Appearing points I made on Monday, 23 November 1998 before the House of Representatives banking concerning the critical issue of claims by the inquiry last year, a representative of the executive to the commercial-in-confidence Tasmanian Local Government Association ground for refusing to produce documents illustrated the impact very clearly. He said: requested by the Senate. Senators will recall that in a tabling statement accompanying Importantly, when people travel to larger centres to utilise their banking services, they also conduct documents in response to a Return to Order, other business there. There is a drop, therefore in the Leader of the Government claimed that it consumer spending with local businesses in rural was ‘in accord with Senate practice’ that municipalities resulting in a loss of jobs and out- certain documents are withheld. Of course, migration of households and businesses This would such a claim is baseless. The Senate may be likely to result in a reversal of any previous decide at its discretion that certain documents intentions to take out loans for investment in local business and thereby impeding development of should not be made public, but it is not at the small enterprises. Therefore, a loss or reduction in discretion of the executive that such a deci- the full range of banking services could impede the sion is made. To do so is for the executive to viability of rural communities and place them in usurp the crucial role of scrutiny of govern- jeopardy. ment that the Senate performs and that all I do not think I could have put it better parliaments perform as a democratic and myself. Unlike this government, the Labor public duty. Party recognised the deleterious impact of It is time the Senate bit the bullet with bank closures on regional Australian commu- respect to this issue. Recent academic, judicial nities. Prior to the election we thought long and media comment all follow the same and hard about our policy development theme that members of the executive must not process and we committed to: be able to ignore requests by upper houses for Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 687 information with impunity. I will provide Government throughout the life of a Federal examples of such comment shortly. The point Parliament. is that the climate is now right for a Senate Thus the court highlights a constitutional challenge to such an arrogant use of executive limitation on the power of the executive to power or, perhaps, to put it more correctly, withhold information from this house. such arrogant use of purported executive In a valuable analysis of claims to commer- power, as it is not clear that refusal to pro- cial-in-confidence by the executive at federal duce documents in the face of a valid order level, Tom Brennan, a partner in Corrs Cham- by the Senate is within the constitutional bers Wesgarth, in a paper entitled ‘Undertak- power of the executive. We all know that the ings of confidence by the Commonwealth: are executive does exercise this power at present. there limits?’ in 1998 argues that arrange- My point is that they do it without authority. ments entered into by the executive that In their joint judgment in the recent High involve undertakings of confidence may be Court case of Egan v. Willis, Justices void as being beyond power. He says on this Gaudron, Gummow and Hayne described the point: relationship between the executive and the Where the information concerned is material to the parliament as follows: operation of government, it is inconsistent with the responsibility of the Executive to the Parliament for A system of responsible government traditionally the Executive to enter into enforceable obligations has been considered to encompass the means by of confidence which would prevent such disclosures which Parliament brings the Executive to account to the Parliament . . . The Executive does not have so that the Executive’s primary responsibility in its the power to enter into an obligation with such an prosecution of government is owed to Parliament. effect. The point was made by Mill, writing in 1861, who Brennan further suggests that ‘parliamentary spoke of the task of the legislature to watch and privilege law would suggest that the executive control the government: to throw the light of publicity on its acts. It has been said of the contem- could not refuse to comply with a requirement porary position in Australia that, whilst the primary of either house that such information be role of Parliament is to pass laws, it also has provided’. important functions to question and criticise It is therefore clear that the weight of legal government on behalf of the people and that to secure accountability of government activity is the analysis is in the corner of the Senate on this very essence of responsible government. issue. Therefore, if the Labor Party’s partisan interest in this issue—and that partisan inter- That is about as unequivocal an endorsement est is with their keeping one eye out for what that I could get for the position of myself and might impede their own executive power my party on this issue, and that endorsement when they get their turn in office—can be put is from the highest court of this country. This aside for just a short time, this house would judgment sends a clear signal to the executive be on solid legal ground by imposing appro- that it cannot simply ignore the structures set priate penalties for a repeat of the executive’s up by our constitution and its conventions for contempt of the Senate as exemplified by its the proper and transparent conduct of govern- response to the return to order to which I ment. have referred. But we would not only be acting soundly Further judicial support comes from the in a legal sense but also in the public good in unanimous judgment in the 1997 Lange case. enforcing accountability in the eyes of com- Here the High Court directly addressed the mentators and the public. In his column of 24 issue of the reach of executive power in the November 1998 in the Bulletin, for example, following terms: Laurie Oakes states: Those provisions which prescribe the system of Executive control is a major reason for the decline responsible government necessarily imply a limita- in the status of Australian Parliaments. And it is a tion on legislative and executive power to deny the solid argument for not tampering with the system electors and their representatives information that allows the Senate to act as real parliaments concerning the conduct of the Executive Branch of should be holding governments accountable and 688 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998 subjecting their policies and actions to proper can, but I am proud to say that, along with scrutiny . . . Only in the Senate—thanks to minor another great former Liberal Party president, parties and Independents—is the power of a bloated Michael Kroger, Sir John agreed to be my executive ever challenged. referee for my preselection to this place on Further, in an editorial in the Australian two occasions. I hope and pray that my newspaper of 20 November 1998, the writer contribution to the parliament will do him says of claims to commercial confidentiality: proud. I am honoured to be able to rise in this This defence is over-used by governments trying to place to pay him tribute tonight. avoid scrutiny and embarrassment and often represents arrogance of the first order: a democracy Sir John Buchan’s achievements were elects its representatives to act on behalf of the many; his life dedicated to the service of electorate as a whole, not of vested interests. The other people. There were so many aspects to system requires the utmost transparency and direct Sir John’s life. He was undoubtedly a great accountability from its parliamentary representa- architect and business leader, one who head- tives. Lack of transparency and limiting the capaci- ed, for 40 years, what is today one of ty of Parliament to review government decisions weaken our democracy. Australia’s largest, oldest and most respected architectural practices. Election results federally and in the states clearly reflect a desire by the Australian He had an indelible influence on Mel- people to have independent upper houses that bourne’s landscape. He is credited with act as a check on the executive. But in order providing the catalyst and vision for to carry out this desire of the people, upper Melbourne’s great South Bank development— houses must demand, and get, full disclosure a vital and vibrant landmark that will be part on government dealings. of Melbourne for many generations to come. Under the auspices of the Soldier Settlement Given the weight of opinion on this issue, Scheme, he built over 2,000 homes across and the recent experience in New South Victoria to house returned servicemen. The Wales, where only legal action would bring Stock Exchange building, the Russell Defence the executive to the table to resolve the issue, Complex here in Canberra, Jupiters Casino, it is time for this house to send a clear signal shopping complexes and many other fine to the federal executive that further defiance Victorian and Australian landmarks all bear of Senate orders will result in the appropriate Sir John’s creative mark. penalty being applied. It appears that only by such action will the Senate get the disclosure He was co-founder of Apex Australia, with it needs to carry out its constitutionally and its origins in Geelong as the Geelong Young electorally ordained role. Businessmen’s Club. It was formed in the shadow and pain of the First World War and Buchan, Sir John the Great Depression. It was formed because Senator SYNON (Victoria) (7.43 p.m.)—I of the compassion and vision of three friends. rise tonight to pay tribute to a great Victorian John Buchan was just 20 at the time. In his and indeed a great Australian. I pay tribute to own words: Sir John Buchan, community activist, business It was post-depression. We felt we had jobs, albeit leader and political pillar. He was a civic minor ones, and here was an opportunity to do leader in the true sense of the word; imbued something for young men by bringing them to- with a sense of duty and altruism. He was a gether in some form of fellowship and service. visionary. John Buchan left behind a won- Apex’s emblem, no doubt, is well known to derful legacy—a legacy that most people all of us. The three equal sides represent the could not accumulate in a dozen lifetimes. great qualities of citizenship, fellowship and There were many who knew him better and service for others. The triangle and name longer than I. That I knew him at all, and felt represent the scaling of great heights and the his support and patronage, is an honour and rays are symbolic of the rising generation of a privilege. youth. This emblem could well be a metaphor There are many others who have paid Sir for John Buchan’s life. Apex has gone on to John Buchan more eloquent tributes than I become a national and an international institu- Wednesday, 25 November 1998 SENATE 689 tion dedicated to the service of others. Sir biggest companies. It was typical of Sir John John did the same. to draw on his business and political contacts John Buchan served his country with for a worthy cause and in his mind there was distinction in Greece, the Middle East and no worthier cause than tackling youth unem- Africa during World War II, reaching the rank ployment. The committee did not shirk from of captain. He served on the Melbourne City the difficult questions and combined practical Council from 1954 to 1959 and had an on-the-ground solutions with hard-hitting important impact on town planning and local policy recommendations, not least among governance issues. He also served on the them calling for a review of youth wages and boards of the Royal Melbourne Hospital and legalising voluntary work contracts. Back in La Trobe University. the mid-1980s he talked of community service in return for the dole. He went on to become President of the Victorian Liberal Party of Australia from His passion for the unemployed in his final 1958 to 1962 and then its Treasurer from years was JANA—Jobs A New Approach, 1962 to 1967. He counted amongst his close established in country Victoria with Sir John friends and confidants Sir Robert Menzies, Sir ambitiously planning for a national expansion. Henry Bolte and Lord Casey. He could pick JANA embraced all that Sir John believed in. up the telephone to Roosevelt and Nixon. He It calls upon members of service clubs, who was critical in forging a strong and vibrant are so fortunate in life, to share their experi- Liberal Party in Victoria. ence, time and skills with those less fortunate. Just as Sir John had mentored so many in his He loved all things American, not least his own life, he was challenging others to do the charming wife, Lady Virginia, and became same. state and then federal president of the Austral- ian-American Association. In 1971 Sir John Sir John knew that we would only ever start was knighted in recognition of his contribu- to come to grips with unemployment when tion to international relations, in particular government, community and business worked between Australia and the USA. together. In the past four years alone, there Sir John was always in for the long haul. are over 500 young people who have jobs and Whether it was the Southbank project, which hope, thanks to Sir John’s vision, compassion took over 20 years to come to fruition, or and drive. youth unemployment, Sir John did not allow Just weeks before his death, inevitably in any setback to diminish his enthusiasm or the first week of the election campaign, I tenacity. spoke with Sir John. We spoke naturally Ted Baillieu provided a moving tribute to enough of politics and of the deservedness of Sir John at his memorial service. With Sir another coalition victory. He encouraged me John, Ted shares the distinction of being a during a difficult personal and political time. great former president of the Victorian divi- As with every conversation we had, it turned sion, an architect and a Geelong Football to our mutual concern about unemployment. Club supporter. Ted observed that if John At 89 years of age, Sir John was still search- Buchan was guilty of an obsession then it was ing for ways to respond positively to the his commitment to the next generation, his tragedy of youth unemployment and ponder- faith in the future, his trust in the young. ing what impact the forthcoming election would have on thousands of young people. Despite our mutual involvement in the Liberal Party, it was our mutual concern for Characteristically, we talked about who he the unemployed which forged our relation- should lobby next. No minister, Prime ship. In 1984, two years after his retirement, Minister, industry or community leader was Sir John founded the National Committee for immune from his phone calls or letters. The Development of Youth Employment—a group conversation with Sir John was typical of that had as its members six knights, a major- him—warm, encouraging, optimistic and a bit general and six heads of some of Australia’s cheeky. 690 SENATE Wednesday, 25 November 1998

Sir John may have retired from work but he Equal Employment Opportunity (Commonwealth never retired from life or from the service of Authorities) Act—Equal employment opportunity his community. He was filled with an indomi- program—Australian Broadcasting Corporation— Report for 1 September 1997 to 31 August 1998. table spirit and a great love for humanity. Sir John was a great man but, more importantly, Genetic Manipulation Advisory Committee— Report for 1997-98. he was a good man. Medibank Private—Statement of corporate Victoria lost a great leader and a great intent—1998-99 to 2000-01. citizen with the passing of Sir John on 25 National Health Act—Private Health Insurance October, and those who were honoured to be Administration Council—Report for 1997-98 on part of his world, in some small way, will the operations of the registered health benefits miss him greatly. To his gracious and beauti- organisations. ful wife, Lady Virginia, and to his children, National Rail Corporation Agreement Act— Susan, Tom and Debbie, may I express my National Rail Corporation Limited—Report for heartfelt sympathy. 1997-98. As one of the many tributes printed in Productivity Commission Act—Productivity Commission—Report—No. 3—Pig and pigmeat newspapers around the country over the past industries: Safeguard action against imports, 11 month said, ‘Put simply, Buchan made Aus- November 1998. tralia a better place in which to live.’ Remuneration Tribunal Act—Remuneration Senate adjourned at 7.52 p.m. Tribunal—Report for 1997-98. DOCUMENTS Royal Australian Mint—Report for 1997-98. Wet Tropics of Queensland World Heritage Area Tabling Conservation Act—Wet Tropics Management The following government documents were Authority—Report for 1997-98. tabled: Indexed Lists of Files Aboriginal Land Rights (Northern Territory) The following documents were tabled Act—Aboriginal Land Commissioner—Report for 1997-98. pursuant to the order of the Senate of 30 May Australia Post—Statement of corporate intent 1996: 1998-99 to 2000-01. Indexed lists of departmental and agency files for Australian Rail Track Corporation Limited— the period 1 January to 30 June 1998— Statement of corporate intent, August 1998. Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. Australian Security Intelligence Organization Tabling Act—Australian Security Intelligence Organiza- tion—Report for 1997-98—Erratum. The following document was tabled by the Commonwealth Authorities and Companies Clerk: Act—Reports for 1997-98— Return for 1997-98 for— Australian Institute of Marine Science. Bounty (Books) Act. Australian National Railways Commission (Australian National). Bounty (Computers) Act. Health Insurance Commission Act. Bounty (Machine Tools and Robots) Act. Medibank Private. Bounty (Ships) Act.