222

I Secretary made where he did not affirm that, indeed, I had

2 connected them. And so 1et the Secretary know that I d'id,

J i ndeed, do that.

4 a So, to be clear, Secretary Pompeo knew that you had

5 connected Yermak to RudY Giuliani?

6 A Correct.

7 O When did you inform Pompeo of that? Was it

8 contemporaneous wi th the i ntroduct'ion?

9 A In I don't want to say same day, but we're l0 talking in the same time Period.

1l a So it's fair to say the Secretary was aware of what t2 Rudy Gi uli an'i that the f act that at least Rudy Gi uti ani l3 was commun'icating di rectly w'ith Andriy Yermak

t4 A Yes. l5 a the adviser to ZelenskY? l6 A Yes, he knew that. I'm please go ahead and keep

t7 asking, but I can skip ahead to something here if you would

18 like. t9 a Sure. Why don't you tell us what you would like to

20 tetl us. I may have more questions, but I'11 let you drive 2t for now.

22 A So, sk'ipp'ing ahead, so the date of these text

23 meSSageS is Sunday, the 22nd of September. I had two missed

24 calls from Rudy on Friday, the 20th of September. These are

25 the dates that are wrong in my long-form testimony, by the 223

I way. They're off by one day.

2 He tried to call twjce on the 20th of September,

J probably from the green room. I mean, he's constantly in the

4 media. You can't work out in the gym without seeing him on

5 TV. So I did not answer those ca11s, and I think that's

6 partly why I think he was frustrated.

7 I did speak the next day with Ulrich Brechbuhl, the

8 counselor of the State Department, to say that, you know,

9 Rudy's way out there. Ulrich called me to say: What's the

l0 story here, what's the background? Remind me. Walk me ll through this again. I had done it earlier in August, and he t2 just wanted to be refreshed. I did that. l3 Sunday morning, I get all these text messages, this long l4 stream of text messages from Rudy. Some are the first two l5 that you mentioned, and then he continues on saying that he's l6 going to let the Secretary know that he connected, which l7 fine. l8 And then he's forwarding o1d messages that I had sent to l9 him to demonstrate to me that he has these text messages,

20 which, of course, I know, he's got them on television. And I 2l did say: Thanks for your help, just the courtesy, you know,

22 of getti ng together wi th Andriy.

23 And then he says: Get out a statement that the State

24 Department connected me to Yermak, and I reported back to

25 State on my conversations. Yermak has talked about this to 224

I press, so 'it's now public information. A11 I'm asking is to

2 te1l the truth. I can send you text chain if you need to

3 check your recollection.

4 And, again, I didn't answer any of these at the time.

5 I spoke with Secretary Pompeo. Gordon Sondland was with

6 him. They were in New York at the UNGA meeting. I was in

7 Washington. Marik String, the acting legal adviser, was also

8 on that cal1. And I watked the Secretary through, again, you

9 know, the narrative so it was fresh in his mind. And he l0 said: Yeah, I know, I know.

1l Then he said that he had spoken w1 th Rudy himself ,

t2 gotten a caIl or called him, I don't know which. I suppose l3 Rudy called hjm. And he said, what Rudy was concerned about

t4 was that we were not affirmjng that we had connected Yermak l5 and him rather than him iust doing it on his own. l6 And I said: We1I, that's easy, because on August 22nd,

t7 we put out a statement from the State Department saying that l8 Yermak had asked me, and I had put h'im i n touch wi th Rudy,

t9 because it had made media back then.

20 And so he said: Wel1, then that's great. So why don't

2t you call Rudy back, tell him that, and give him a copy of

22 what was handed out at the time. So I did that.

23 a And that's what this final message is here?

24 A That's what that fi nal thi ng i s there. It was

25 handed at the State in the State Department. It was 225

I not the re was no brjefjng that day, I believe, or if it

2 was, thi s WAS not included in the briefing. But it was

a 'it J prepa red , was cleared, and it was handed to Ken Vogel

4 (ph), who th en tweeted i t.

5 a We re you aware that Sec reta ry Pompeo was on the

6 July 25th call wi th President Trump and Presi dent Zelensky?

7 A I was not

8 a When did you first learn that?

9 A When he sa'i d so. I believe it was yesterday l0 morning.

ll a So you never had any conversations with Pompeo t2 about that call?

l3 A No.

t4 a Di d you ever have any, aside from the ones that we

l5 were j ust talki ng about, conversati ons with Secretary Pompeo

l6 about Rudy Giufianj and what he was up to in the Ukraine?

17 A Yes, yes. I described my concern that he is

l8 projecting a damaging or a negative image about Ukraine, and t9 that's reaching the President, and that I am trying to work

20 with Ukrainians to correct that messaging, correct that 2t i mpress i on.

22 a What did Secretary Pompeo do?

23 A Sai d: I 'm glad you' re doi ng i t.

24 a Trying to correct it?

25 A Yes. 226

I a Did he ever say he took your concerns to the

2 Presi dent?

J A He did not.

4 a Do you know whether Rudy Giuliani and Secretary

5 Pompeo had any direct conversations, one-on-one

6 conversati ons?

7 A 0n1y the one that I just mentioned, which was

8 around September 22nd.

9 a I also want to just kind of put a marker down for l0 the record. When was the first time that you spoke with Rudy

ll Gi ul i ani about anythi ng havi ng to do wi th Ukrai ne? t2 A Yes. It was jn earlier in MaY. l3 a Yeah. If you flip to page 6, there's a message t4 from May LLth, 20L9.

l5 A Yes, that would be i t. t6 a 0kay. And I'11 1et you read that and refresh your t7 recollecti on. And my questi on i s go'ing to be, what was the

l8 Sum and substance of the converSation you had with Giuljani?

t9 A So, on May LLth, I wrote to Mayor Giuliani saying:

20 Mr. Mayor - - hi , l,lr. Mayor, Kurt Volker here. Good speaki ng 2l with you yesterday, which meant May LQth then I must have

22 spoken with him. call any time up to about 4 p.m. today if you want to follow up. We would like to brief you more about

24 the Zetensky di scussi on and also Russi a-Ukrai ne dynami c.

25 so I had learned through the media that he was going to 227

I go to Ukra j ne and he was 'intendi ng to pursue these

2 allegations that Lutsenko had made, and he was going to go

J jnvest'igate these things. And I reached out to hjm to brief

4 him, a couple of key points. Lutsenko is not credjble.

5 Don' t 1 i sten to what he i s sayi ng.

6 a You told Rudy Giulianj that, that Lutsenko is not

7 credible?

8 A Yes. Yes, I di d.

9 a 0kaY.

l0 A To say that I had met wi th Zelensky as a ll Presidenti al candidate, and I believe he's the real dea1, and t2 we should be trying to support him. And, third, I wanted to l3 talk to him about what's going on with Russia and Ukraine so t4 he's aware of that. l5 We spoke briefly on the 10th. It must have been I l6 don't have an exact time in mind, but I'm guessing it was L0 t7 m'inutes, somethi ng 1i ke that. And he had to go. 5o I texted

l8 him the next day, saying: I'm happy to fol1ow up, because we t9 didn't have a f u11 conversat'ion, and he was going to go to

20 Ukra i ne. 2t And so I sa'id: Thi s number i s good f or text and ce11

22 phone.

23 And he never got back to me, and he canceled hi s tri p.

24 And that's when he announced also he WAS canceling the trip,

25 that President Zelensky is surrounded by enemies of the 228

I United States, which I thought is

2 a Was that helpful for U.5. relations with Ukra'ine?

5 A Certainly not. so that conversation took place and

4 dropped then. Because he didn't go to Ukraine, there was no

5 poi nt i n pursui ng i t anY further.

6 a So, just to be cIear, prior to this time, you had

7 not had any conversati ons, communi cati ons wi th Rudy G'i u1 i ani

8 about Ukrai ne

9 A No. l0 a pri or to l{aY 1Lth? ll A No. t2 a 0r the conversation that you had on or about May l3 11th?

t4 A No.

15 a The phone conversation. t6 A This is it. t7 a 0kay. Were you aware, though, that G"iu1i ani was l8 involved in Ukraine, so to speak, prior to this time?

t9 A Not at the time. Even at thi s time, I wasn't av',are

20 that he had as many Ukraine connections as it later became

2t apparent that he did.

22 a Do you know anyone do you know somebody

23 associ ated wi th G'iul i ani named Lev Parnas?

24 A Yes. j 25 a Who s Lev Parnas? 229

I A Lev Parnas is a Ukrainian-American businessman. I

2 bel i eve he' s based i n Flori da And he attended the breakfast

3 that I had with Rudy Giuliani on May 20-whatever, 25th,

4 somethi ng 1 i ke that.

5 a And which breakfast was that, May 25th?

6 A No, no, no, I take i t back. Not May 25th. July

7 19th.

8 a 0kay.

9 A I did not have a breakfast with him on May 25th.

l0 a Thi s i s the breakfast at the Whi te House meeti ng ll t2 A I'm confusing the White House readout after the l3 inauguration as the date. July L9th is when I had breakfast t4 with Rudy, and Lev Parnas attended that breakfast. l5 a Who is Lev Parnas? What's his relationship to t6 Giuliani? t7 A I don't know what thei r relati onsh'ip i s. They l8 appear to be friends. I assumed that Giufiani brought him l9 along to the meeti ng because he's Ukrai ni an-Ameri can and,

20 therefore, knows a 1ot about Ukraine. 2t a Do you know if Lev Parnas was doing anything to

22 help Gi u1 i ani get i ntroduced to Ukrai ni an offi ci als?

23 A I don't know.

24 a Do you know anything else about Lev Parnas? Had

25 you had any interactions with him prior to that breakfast 230

I meet i ng?

2 A Never met him before or since.

3 a Where d'id You have breakfast?

4 A At the TrumP Hote1.

5 a Why did you have breakfast at the Trump Hotel?

6 A Because I was guessing that's where Rudy was going

7 to be staying, so that would be the easiest thing to do.

8 a When you met with Andriy Yermak when he was in

9 D.C., where did he stay?

t0 A I believe he stayed at the Trump Hote1. ll a Do you know why he stayed at the Trump Hotel? t2 A I don't know whY.

13 a D'id you ever have any conversati ons wi th the l4 Ukra j ni ans about curryi ng f avor wi th Pres'ident Trump by

l5 staying at their ProPertY? l6 A I did not, no. t7 a Did you have any discussjons with the Ukrainians

18 about Lev Parnas?

t9 A No, I di dn't.

20 a Do you know someone by the name of Igor Fruman? 2l A I read that name in press reports. I don't

22 remember. It's possible he was at the Same breakfast, but I

23 honestly don' t remember.

24 a You said that maybe he Fruman may have been at

25 the breakfast? 231

I A He may have been there.

2 a How many people were at the breakfast?

J A I reca1l Lev Parnas, Rudy Gi ul i ani , and myself

4 sitting at a tabte. There were two other people at a

5 separate tab1e. And that and one of them may have been

6 Igor Fruman or not. I don't know.

7 a Did you ever have any conversat'ions wi th Donald

8 Trump , Jr ., about Ukrai ne?

9 A I've never met h'im. l0 a Have you ever spoken to him? ll A No. t2 a What d'id Lev Parnas or the person that may have l3 been Igor Fruman, at least that you remember, say during that

t4 breakf ast meeti ng w'ith Ukrai ne? l5 A Sure. I don't remember anythi ng about Igor Fruman. l6 I'm not even sure if he was there. It's possible he was. I t7 j ust don't know. l8 a How about Lev Parnas then? l9 A Lev Parnas, it was interesting, because I was

20 expecting to have a very negative view of Zelensky and to 2t have a very pro-supportjve vjew of Lutsenko, the prosecutor

22 general. And as we were talking about things, I just kind of

23 1i ke launched i n and sa'id: I thi nk these guys are f or real .

24 I t' s a good team. He' s assembl i ng some good people. He

25 campaigned on changing the country. I think he's the best 232

I hope we've had. I think there's a 3- to 5-month window in

2 which the next 5 years of the Ukraine are going to be

J determi ned. And he needs all our support.

4 And, to my surpri se, both Parnas basi cally was very

5 knowledgeable about people 'in Ukraine and events, largely

6 agreed with that. I didn't expect him to agree with that.

7 But he said: Yeah, that's what I think too. He seems to be

8 trying to do all the right things.

9 And then we got to talking about Lutsenko, and I said l0 that: Don't believe what Lutsenko has been saying. I think

l1 thjs is a self-serving narrative to preserve himself in power l2 and protect himsetf, possibly protect Poroshenko as we11.

t3 And, again, to my surprise, Rudy agreed with that and

t4 sai d : Yes , I 've come to that conclusi on too.

l5 So he jnitially believed Lutsenko, but I think had l6 distanced himself from that after that, maybe because

t7 Lutsenko had then come out and disavowed his own allegations l8 f rom earlier in the year.

t9

20

2t

22

23

24

25 233

I 14:07 p.m.I

2 BY MR. NOBL E :

J a And we talked about that earlier

4 A Yes.

5 a AI1 right I think I want to switch gears a 1itt1e

6 bi t and ask you about some other messages. If you could turn

7 to page 26. And we're going to mark pages 25, 27, and 28 as

8 exhi bi t 10.

9 lVolker Exhjbit No. 10

r0 was marked for identi fi cation. l

ll BY MR. NOBLE:

12 a And on page 26, I'd like to direct your attention l3 to the first entry for May 25, 2019. t4 A Yep. l5 a So can you set the scene l6 A Yes. t7 a you know, as of May 26th? l8 A Yes. l9 a What was going on?

20 A Very happy to. So our -- Iet's get the sequence 2t here. 0ur ambassador to Ukraine had departed post.

22 a That's your ambassador, Ambassador Yovanovi tch?

23 A Ambassador Yovanovitch. She had departed. I was

24 there for the presidential inauguration with the others that

25 we discussed. I had the meeting in the 0va1 0ffice with the 234

I President. And I was concerned that we were not going to

2 have a Serious senior diplomat on the ground in Ukraine once

J Ambassador Yovanovitch had 1eft. We were getting a brand-new

4 DCM later that week who had not served in Ukraine before, So

5 completely new, and I, therefore, thought it was important

6 that we get a seasoned d'iplomat in there. And I suggested

7 Bill Taylor because he had been ambassador there before, he

8 knew the country, he knew the players, he had a lot of

9 experience, and he could go on a temporary basis aS a Charge l0 while we appointed a new ambassador. ll So I di scussed thi s wi th Bi 11 . He was reluctant. I l2 don't want to I don't want to over-characteri ze hi s l3 reasons, but, you know, being on the outside and seeing the

t4 administration, he was not Sure if we would maintain as

l5 robust a support for Ukraine as we had had for the past l6 2 years.

t7 I had been fighting for this everY day and we had, I

l8 th i nk, a very strong policy, but he was just worried it was

l9 goi ng to get undermined at some Point

20 a What did did he saY what he thought would

2l undermi ne?

22 A He didn't say sPecificallY. It was more a generic

23 f ear, but I th i nk hangi ng ove r eve rYone ' s head on the expert

24 communi ty is, is there some grand bargain wi th Russi a where

25 we throw Ukraine under the bus. 235

1 And I kept assuring him, Bi11, I've been at this, and

2 it's been the other way around. We have strengthened our

J support for Ukraine. We have lift we have increased

4 sanctions, we have lifted the arms embargo. We did the

5 Pompeo declarat'ion on nonrecognition of Crimea. We've been

6 more vocal about Russia's aggression. We are on track here,

7 and it's important that we have people in there fighting to

8 do that.

9 So that was the nature of our back-and-forth, talking l0 about whether he would agree to be a Charge. ll a How did just pausing for a second. How do you t2 reconcile that, the fact that all these measures were being l3 taken while you were special envoy to Ukrajne to, as you say, t4 strengthen the relationship, strengthen Ukraine, build up l5 Ukraine so that jt could defend itself against Russia, as you l6 say, with weapons that you believe they needed in order to l7 either deter an attack or fight the war that's ongoing? l8 How do you reconcile that with the decision to freeze t9 military assistance, hundreds of millions of dollars of

20 mi 1 i tary assi stance to Ukrai ne? Why di d that not stri ke you 2t as highly problemat'ic to U.S. national security, or to our

22 national securi ty interests?

23 A It did strike me as problematic, and therefore, I

24 acted immed'iately to argue that this has to be reversed and

25 we have to keep the assistance going. 236

I a And I believe you testified that everyone in the

2 interagency from the NSC, to DoD, to the official State

3 Department posi ti on, everyone supported that fundi ng goi ng to

4 Ukrai ne, correct?

5 A That's correct. It was OMB that announced in the

6 interagency meeting that there was a hold --

7 a Okay.

8 A or a review.

9 a And I believe you said the first time you learned l0 about that was well , actual1y, i t's i n the text messages. ll I believe it might have been Bill Taylor said there was a

t2 SVTC.

l3 A Yes. t4 a A secure conference call from OMB announcing the l5 freeze in July?

t6 A J uly L8. t7 a July L8th. 0h. And do you know who at OMB was l8 responsible for the freeze, or for implementing the freeze,

t9 or communicating the freeze to the interagency?

20 A Yeah, I don' t know. I di dn' t attend the

2t i nteragency meeti ngs. I typi cally di d not.

22 And it was a sub PCC meeting, whjch is typically deputy

23 assi stant secretary 1eve1.

24 a Did you attend the sub PCC meeting?

25 A No. 237

I a Let's go back to your text messages, page 26. So

2 tet's pick up where BiIl Taylor says and I believe he's

J talki ng about hi s deci s"ion whether or not to

4 A Correct.

5 a I guess --

6 A To accept the j ob.

7 a to accept the job as ambassador to Ukraine. "I

8 am sti1l struggling wi th the decision whether to go. Can

9 anyone hope to succeed with the Giuliani-Biden issue swirling l0 for the next L8 months? Can 5," meaning Secretary Pompeo, ll "offer any reassurance on this issue?"

12 What do you think he meant by the Giuliani-Biden issue? l3 And j ust to recall, we're talki ng we're talki ng about t4 May 26, 2019, which is approximately 2 months before

l5 President Trump's phone call with President Zelensky when he

l6 urged President Zelensky to jnvestigate the Bidens. What was t7 Bilt Taylor referring to here? l8 A He was referring to what he had seen in the media l9 about Giuliani talk'ing about Hunter Biden and whether Vice

20 Pres'ident Biden had acted inappropriately in attacking the

2l f ormer Prosecutor General Shok'in.

22 Bill was at th'is tjme not in the U.S. government. He

23 was working at USIP, so he's just referring to the what's

24 out there in the media swirl.

25 a Did you have d'iscussions wi th Bi 11 Taylor about hi s 238

I concerns about what Giutiani was saying in the media about

2 Ukraine needing to investigate the Bidens?

J A Yes.

4 a Aside from this text message?

5 A Yes. Aside from the yes, I did, because in

6 conversations about whether he would take the job, I would

7 reiterate, "Look, Giuliani does not represent the U.S.

8 government. Don't worry about that. We are actually

9 getting we have our policy in the right p1ace, and we need l0 people in the U.S. government to actually be continuing to ll push for the right Policies. " t2 a And what d'id he ultimately decide, Bi 11 Taylor? l3 A He di d dec"ide to take the j ob, af ter we had a

t4 meeting with Secretary Pompeo and Ulrich Brechbuhl and Bill

l5 and myself to djscuss our policy. Bill wanted to be l6 reassured that the Secretary of State is saying the same

t7 thing that I'm saying about where our policy is, that we are l8 robustly i n Support of Ukra'ine. And, of courSe, Secretary

t9 Pompeo did that.

20 O And later i n th'is text message exchange, you tel1 2l Bill Taylor, this is 5/26/L9 at 1'L:23, "Let's see how it

22 looks on Tuesday. I don't know if there's much to do about

23 the Giuliani thing, but I do think the key thing is to do

24 what we can right now since the future of the country is in

25 play right now." 239

1 A Yes.

2 a Which country were you referring to?

J A Ukrai ne.

4 a And what did you mean by this when you were telling

5 thi s to Bi 11 Taylor?

6 A Yeah. So I say there's not much to do about the

7 Gjuliani thing. He's going to be out there speaking publicly

8 and saying what he says no matter what. We can't fix that.

9 That's goi ng to happen. l0 But we can right now you know, the key thing is what ll we can do, meaning those of supporting United States and U.S. t2 interests, what we can do, since the future of Ukraine is in l3 play right now. We have a new president, there's going to be

t4 a new parliament, a new government, and it's going to be a

15 dicey t'ime. I was trying to encourage him to accept the l6 position. l7 a But isn't there something that the Secretary of

l8 State could have done about G'i uli an'i? Are you te11i ng us l9 that Secretary of State Pompeo was helpless to stop Giuliani

20 from interfering with official U.S. diplomacy in Ukraine? 2t A Honestly, yes. I'm sure he could have called Rudy

22 Gjuljani, but would Rudy Giuliani stop doing what he's doing

23 because the Secretary of State calls him? I'd be surprised.

24 a What if President Trump had calted Giuliani and

25 said to knock it oft? 240

I A Because they had a dj fferent relatj onshi p, attorney

2 for the President, then PerhaPs.

3 a Do you know whether Secretary Pompeo ever discussed

4 Rudy Gi u1 i ani wi th Presi dent Trump?

5 A I don't know.

6 a Specifically, Giutiani's efforts in Ukraine?

7 A I don't know whether he did.

8 t4R. SWALWELL: Just real quick. When you say "attorney

9 for the President," you mean attorney for Donald Trump, l0 right, not the 0ffice of the President?

ll MR. V0LKER: Yes . Yes , that ' s what I mean .

t2 MR. SWALWELL: Thanks.

l3 MR. V0LKER: Personal attorney. Thank you.

14 BY MR. NOBLE:

l5 a And you mentioned a meeting that you had with

l6 Secretary Pompeo and hi s counset , U1 rj ch Brechbuhl , and Bi 1t

t7 Taylor?

l8 A Yes.

t9 a You were discussing whether Bill Taylor --

20 A Yes.

2t o should take the j ob. What, i f anythi ng, WAS

22 di scussed about Rudy Giutiani in that meeting?

23 A I don't recall that that actually came up. I thi nk

24 it was more about can we be sure that the policy will remai n

25 the same, you know, sanctions, arms, et cetera 241

I a So did the Bidens or an investigation of the Bidens

2 come up jn that conversation?

J A No, no.

4 a So the Rudy Giuliani issue, as you calf it,

5 d'idn ' t

6 A Yeah

7 a come up at all?

8 A No. I don't recall that comi ng up at all.

9 And just reading on, so Bi t1 is say'ing, "You' re

l0 absolutely ri ght. We need somebody there. Why don't you be

ll Cha rge? " t2 a To you, right? l3 A To me, ri ght. t4 a And d'id you want that j ob or no? l5 A I did not want that job. t6 a Why djdn't you want that job? t7 A Personal reasons. Part of it, as you know, I'fi l8 getting married on Saturday, and I -- l9 a Congratulati ons agai n.

20 A and I wanted to be here. Thank you. 2t And also I felt I was more effective doing the special

22 envoy position, because there you can engage wjth the

23 'interagency, you can engage with the a11ies, you can engage

24 with NATO, you can engage with the EU. It's a much broader

25 range of things that you can do from there, rather than being 242

on the ground 'in Ukrai ne.

2 a Can we go to page 27, just hit this quickly?

J There's a text message exchange on July 8' 2019, at about

4 9:14 a . m.

5 A I'm sorry. What Page agai n?

6 a Page 27.

7 A Yes. And

8 a 7/8/L9 at 9:14.

9 A Yes. l0 a And you say, "Zelensky was on board. Bohdan was

ll skepti cal " ?

t2 A Uh-huh. l3 a What were you talk'ing about here? t4 A That refers to seeking to schedule a presidential

l5 phone ca11. l6 a Okay. "And worried that a call substitutes for a t7 visit. i pulled the two of them aside at the end and

l8 explai ned the Gi ul i ani factor. "

t9 A Yes.

20 a lr,/hat di d you mean by "Gi uf iani f actor, " and who 2t were you explaining the Giuliani factor to?

22 A I explained it to President Zelensky and the chi ef

23 of Presidential Administration, Andriy Bohdan, was standi ng

24 next to him. And I explained that I thought that there i s a

25 negative narrative about Ukraine that is counteracting all 243

1 the good things that he is doing, and that we are officially

2 communicating back, and that this is being amplified by Rudy

J Giuliani. So th'is is a negative f actor for Ukraine's image

4 jn the United States and our ability to advance the bilaterat

5 relationshi p.

6 MR. SWALWELL: And, Ambassador, L7 days after you

7 explained that, we now know, you know, the phone call readout

8 from the White House of the call between President Trump and

9 President Zelensky. l0 How do you think President Zelensky reconciled what you ll had told him about L7 days earlier and what he would hear t2 from the President, which was, in fact, the person one of

l3 the persons you should fol1ow up with is Rudy Giulianj? Was

t4 that confus i ng? l5 MR. VOLKER: I don't know, yeah, because I was not aware l6 of the content of that phone ca11. President Zelensky and t7 Andrey Yermak never mentioned that to me, so I don't know. l8 MR. SWALWELL: But would that undermine what you're l9 telling President Zelensky just L7 days earlier, that he has

20 a more elevated role than what you are telting him? 2t MR. VOLKER: I actualty I hadn't thought about it,

22 you know, in this context before, but as I think about it, it

23 was probably very hetpful that I had told this to President

24 Zelensky when I did so that when he heard thls f rom the

25 Pres'ident, he was forewarned, right, there's a Giuliani 244

1 problem here.

2 MR. SWALWELL: Rlght. But with all due respect,

J AmbaSSador, aS you said earlier, any time the President of

4 the United States asks any other foreign leader, because of

5 the weight of the Un'ited States, whether you have forewarned

6 Zelensky about Giuliani or not, the fact that the United j 7 States Presi dent i s gi vi ng Mr. Gi u1 ani thi s status, that

8 would be important for 14r. Zelensky, right?

9 MR. V0LKER: I suPPose it would.

l0 BY MR. NOBLE: ll a Going back to page 28, if you can flip to the t2 bottom portion on August 25, 2019, at LL:05 p.m. Do you see

l3 that

t4 A Yes. l5 a where Bitl Taylor says' "When you briefed l6 Bolton, did you recommend he see Yermak?"

t7 What was he asking about there? This is August 26th,

18 leading up to

t9 A Yes. 'in 20 a the summi t Warsaw or the World War I I

2t Memori a1

22 A Yes, yes.

23 a in Warsaw.

24 A Solhadaphone call bri efi ng wi th J ohn Bol ton

25 bef ore hi s tri p to Ukrai ne to just make sure he was 245

I up-to-date, because he was going to be visiting there. And

2 Bi 11 asked me 'i f I recommended that he see Yermak.

J a Whi le

4 A White visiting Ukra'ine.

5 a Whi le Bolton was 'in Ukrai ne?

6 A Yes. He was going to see the President; he was

7 going to see Danylyuk, who was technically h'is counterpart.

8 Context: Danylyuk's star within the Zelensky orbit was

9 fadi ng at thi s poi nt, and he's sj nce resi gned, and Yermak's l0 star was up. ll a And just out of curiosity, do you know whether t2 Danylyuk resigned or was fired? Was he pushed out? l3 A I believe he resigned. I haven't spoken with him t4 since he resigned. He did he did send me a text message l5 before this testimony today to wish me wel1, but I haven't

t6 spoken wi th hi m. t7 a OkaY. l8 A But my understanding is that he became very l9 uncomf ortable wi th the vi si bi 1i ty of th'i s ol i garch, Igor

20 Kolomoi sky (ph) , 'in recent months i n Ukrai ne. 2t O Who became uncomfortable?

22 A Danylyuk became uncomfortable with it, and did not

23 want to continue in his duties if he thought that this

24 'ind'ivi dual i s havi ng too much f reedom of maneuver i n Ukrai ne

25 a Can you explain a ljttle bit more about the nature 246

I of hi s concerns about Kolomoi skY?

2 A Yes. So Igor Kolomoisky is one of the handful of j J very, very, very wealthy Ukrai ni ans. Together, f you

4 jnclude influence over state-owned industry as welt as

5 privately owned things, they probably control at least

6 20 percent of the GDP, and it is all the GDP that matters; so

7 energy, energy distribution, jnfrastructure, defense you 8 i ndustrj es, coal and steel producti on, transportati on,

9 name i t, medi a, especi alty, they have got i t.

10 And Kolomoisky had a bank called Privat Bank (ph), and ll that bank made a number of bad loans, $5 bittion worth, to

t2 it djsappeared and basically to him and his other leaders l3 of the bank, and it was nationalized. And the Ukrainian

t4 taxpayer officially is ba'iling out the bank for the money

l5 that KolomoiskY stole. l6 Because the IMF provides budgetary support to Ukraine,

t7 we actually ended up baiting out this bank.

l8 And he was being pursued by President Poroshenko. He

t9 waS living in exile in Switzerland, and then moved to exile

20 'in Israel. 2l He is subject to a civil suit in Delaware now over this

22 bank as well.

23 The courts in Ukraine just before the presidential

24 election, the courts in Ukraine had a finding that the

25 nationalization of the bank that had been done was not done 247

I properly, and that opened the possibility of restoring the

2 bank to Mr. Kolomoisky, and possibly even paying

Ja compensati on.

4 a 0kay. I don't mean to cut you off. I mean, we

5 don't have I don't want to keep you here all night --

6 A 0kay.

7 a so I'd like to keep going on.

8 A But anyway, you get the nature

9 a Kotomoisky went back to Ukraine after Zelensky was l0 elected. Is that fair to say? ll A Yes. After Zelensky was elected, he returned to t2 Ukra'ine, he vi si ted some of hi s busi nesses, he gave med'ia l3 jnterviews, he played a very visible public roIe. And the t4 Privat Bank issue has sti1l not been definitively resolved. l5 And I think Danylyuk was becoming increasingly concerned

t6 that thi s i s gi vi ng the appearance also there's a t7 photograph of Kolomoisky meeting Zelensky in Zelensky's l8 office that was released by the presidential administration; t9 transparent, but sti 11 a bad si gn. So Danylyuk, I thi nk,

20 left for all of these reasons. 2t a Okay. Back to your text messages. 22 A I'm sorry to get on a tangent.

23 a That's okay.

24 Back to your text messages. 8/27/20L9 at'7:34, Bill

25 Taylor wrote: "Bolton said he talked to you and Gordon 248

I brief1y. " That's Ambassador Sondland. "Nothing specific.

2 What should they talk about? Tim says Bolton wants to stay

J out of pol i ti cs. "

4 Tim, who is that?

5 A Tim is Tim Morrison, who is the Senior Director for

6 Europe at the Nati onal Securi ty Counci 1.

7 a And what did you understand it to mean when Bolton

8 wanted to stay out of politics? Is that a reference to

9 the l0 A Yeah. ll a Administration's or to Trump and Giulian'i 's t2 efforts to get Ukra'ine to open the investigations we've been l3 talki ng about?

t4 A Yeah. It's not c1ear. I think it may have been

l5 more about G'iut i ani ' s rote generally. l6 a Did you have any conversations with National t7 Security Advisor Bolton about Giuliani? l8 A I did back earlier in August. t9 a And what did you say to him and he to you?

20 A Basically the same as with Secretary Pompeo: "I

2t want you to know Giuliani's out there spinning these

22 narrati ves. I 'm concerned that thi s i s affecti ng the

23 Presi dent's vi ews of Ukrai ne. "

24 I'm trying to work with Ukrainians, and they are trying

25 to communicate a message back to Bolton to convey that they 249

I are actually a different crowd, not from 2015, not corrupt,

2 so that positive message gets back to the President. 5o I

J explained all that to Bolton.

4 He did not engage on that, by the way.

5 O He did not engage on that?

6 A He did not.

7 Secretary Pompeo, as I sai d, "Good. I 'm glad you' re

8 doi ng that. "

9 Bol ton j ust ki nd of sai d, "0kay. " l0 a Was Bolton on the July 25th call, do you know? ll A I don't know. t2 a At the end here so we're on September Lst is l3 when the meeting in Warsaw occurred, correct?

t4 A Wi th the vi ce presi dent. l5 a With the v'ice president. And I'11 get to that, but l6 here at the very end, you wrote, Kurt -- or Bill Taytor wrote l7 to you, "Kurt, can you WhatsApp Def ense l'li ni ster" oh, l8 wow Zagor -- l9 A Zagorodnyuk.

20 a "We just met to discuss the pause jn security 2l assjstance. He would like your advice and assistance. "

22 So at this point, the Ukrainians were clearly aware

23 A Ri ght.

24 a of the freeze. Is that ri ght?

25 A That's ri ght. 250

I a Okay. And did you have a conversation with the

2 Ukrai ni an defense mi ni ster about the freeze?

J A Yes, I did.

4 a What did you say to him and he to You?

5 A I said that everyone in Washington is trying to

6 figure this out and fix it: Pentagon, State Department, NSC,

7 and even in Congress. I had done some staff meetings with

8 the Armed Services Committee, Senate Armed Services

9 Commi ttee.

10 And in terms of advice, I suggested that he called ll Secretary of Defense Esper, that he's a brand-new defense

t2 mi ni ster. He should establj sh a counterpart relationshi p, l3 and gi ve a call and express hi s concern about th'is, and

t4 empower Esper to raise this issue. l5 And I also suggested that he ptan an early visit to

l6 Washington when Congress is 'in sessjon, so that he could meet

t7 both with Esper, or if Esper's not in town, whoever is there

l8 from the Pentagon, but also have a chance to meet with

t9 Members of Congress.

20 a And do you know whether he reached out to Secretary 2l Esper?

22 A He did.

23 a He did? Do you know what they talked about or what

24 the conversation was about?

25 A I did not get a readout on the cal1. I'm not sure 251

1 when the call took place. I have a feeling it was after a

2 de1 ay.

J Also, somewhere in here I texted him a letter that

4 several Senators signed to Chief of Staff Mulvaney urging

5 saying that they had heard that there was a hold, and urging

6 that there not be such a hold.

7 a Do you know who else was on that letter?

8 A I believe it's in here somewhere. I know here

9 it is. Very good. Page 32 and 33. Senator Shaheen, Senator l0 Durbin, Senator Blumenthal, Senator Portman, and Senator ll Johnson, and i t was addressed to the Di rector of 0MB, M'ick t2 Mulvaney, in that capacity and copied to Secretary Pompeo and l3 Secretary Esper. t4 a So I want to skip to page 55. And I think that is l5 a new exhi b'it I have to create. So thi s wi 11 be Exh'ibi t LL, l6 and it wj11 be pages 54 through 57.

t7 lVolker Exhi bi t No . 11.

l8 was marked for i denti fi cati on. l

l9 BY MR. NOBLE:

20 a And, again, to page 56, I want to di rect your

2t attenti on to August 29th, 2019.

22 A Yes.

23 a The message starting at 5:02, where you wri te:

24 "Trump not going to Warsaw now. Pence going. I 'm so sor ry

25 Who are you telfing this to? 252

d1 plomati c 1 A Thi s i s Vadym Prystai ko, who was the

2 advi sor to President Zelensky. He had been ambassador to

J Ukrai ne's ambassador to NAT0, was tapped to be diplomatic

4 advi sor. He i s currently the forei gn mi ni ster. go 5 a Do you know why President Trump decided not to

6 to Warsaw?

7 A The hurri cane news. There was a possi b'i I i tY of a

8 hurricane hi tti ng Flori da, and he cancelled hjs triP for that

9 stated reason. l0 a Do you know for a fact that's why he cancelled it ll or was that the stated reason? l2 A That that's the only reason that's been given. l3 a And President Trump was supposed to meet with t4 Presj dent Zelensky i n Warsaw. Is that ri ght?

l5 A That ' s cor rect. j 16 a And had you been work ng lead'ing up to that t7 meeting? Had you been working to arrange that meeting? l8 A I had been pushing for the two of them to get

19 together f rom May; that I s'incerely beli eved that once

20 President Trump sat down with President Zelensky, he would

2t have the same conclus'ion that this is Someone we can work

22 with, as I had when I met with him.

23 a Did you attend the meeting in Warsaw?

24 A No.

25 l'4R. N0BLE: Is it t'ime's up? Okay. I see. l'ly time's 253

I up, so I'11

2 MR. VOLKER: 0kay.

J MR. CASTOR: I'light be possible should we take a break

4 or keep going?

5 MR. SWALWELL: I prefer to keep going.

6 MR. V0LKER: I'm okay.

7 MR. CASTOR: 0kay. Keep goi ng?

8 Do you have any questi ons at thi s ti me?

9 MR. PERRY: I don' t. l0 MR. MEAD0WS: As long as we have at the end where we can ll come back and do a round.

t2 MR. SWALWELL: Sure. l3 MR. CAST0R: We might have couple of things here. I t4 don't thjnk it's worth turning over. l5 MR. MEADOWS: He is getting married on Saturday. l6 MR. N0BLE: We won't be here on Saturday.

t7 MR. V0LKER: Thank you.

l8 BY MR. NOBLE: t9 O So did -- I'm sorry. I think I was asking you, did

20 you attend the Warsaw meeting?

2t A And that ' s cor rect. And I d i d not .

22 a You did not. Did you get a readout from that

23 meeting about the meeting between Vice-President Pence and

24 Zelensky?

25 A Not much of one, actually. Very, very sketchy. I 254

I did not get much of a readout at all.

2 MR. SWALWELL: Ambassador, with respect to the Warsaw

J meeting, with a high-level official t'ike the Vice Pres'ident

4 meeting with the President of Ukraine, is that a meeting you

5 would typicalty be in?

6 MR. VOLKER: Depends. I had just been traveling for

7 about a week prior to that, including to Ukraine, and I had

8 some schedul i ng confl i cts. And wi th the Vi ce Presj dent goi ng

9 there and not being part manifested on the delegation to l0 the Warsaw, whatever it is, anniversary of World War II, it

l1 just wouldn't have been possible to attempt.

t2 MR. SWALWELL: Did you prepare the Vice President for

t3 that meeti ng?

t4 MR. VOLKER: I did not.

15 MR. SWALWELL: Do you know who did prepare the Vice

l6 President for that meeting?

l7 MR. VoLKER: I assume his staff prepared him and the NSC

l8 staf f .

t9 MR. SWALWELL: So are you aware of any State offic'ials

20 who were a part of the preparation for that meeting?

2t |\,lR. V0LKER: I'm not aware. I would think that there

22 would have been Some contact with the State Department, but

23 I'm not aware of who would have done that.

24 MR. SWALWELL: Was Bill Taylor at that meeting?

25 MR. V0LKER: I don't betieve so. 255

I MR. SWALWELL: How about Ambassador Sondland?

2 MR. V0LKER: I believe he was, but I'm not sure.

Ja I"lR. SWALWELL: Again, I guess, is it it strikes me as

4 unusual that you would not be and I understand the travel

5 j ssue, but, agai n

6 MR. V0LKER: Yeah.

7 MR. SWALWELL: the Vice President of the United

8 States

9 MR. V0LKER: I know. l0 MR. SWALWELL: standing in for the President, is it ll unusual that you were not more a part of that meeting at t2 least in the preparation?

l3 MR. V0LKER: In Mun'ich, in February of I guess it was t4 February of this year, February 2019, Vice President Pence

l5 1ed the admini stration detegation to the ["lun jch Securi ty l6 Conference, and I was there. I had asked to be included in t7 his meeting with President Poroshenko, and I was not included l8 i n that meeti ng. l9 MR. SWALWELL: Whose decision was that?

20 MR. V0LKER: The Vice President's staf f , the V'ice 2t Presi dent or Vi ce Presi dent's staff.

22 MR. SWALWELL: Who informed you that you would not be

23 MR. VOLKER: Someone workjng on his staff at the time.

24 MR. SWALWELL: Do you know who that was?

25 MR. V0LKER: Gabrielle. I don't remember the last name. 256

I MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Sorry. Keep goi ng.

'included n 2 MR. V0LKER: But i n any event, I was not i ) that meeting. And I my understanding is that the Vice

4 President likes to keep hjs meetings very, very sma11.

5 so when it was the Vice President going, ftying from the

6 u.s., I'm heading back or had just headed back to the

7 U. S. , I di dn't reallY Push for i t.

8 MR. SWALWELL: But would there typically be coordination

9 among State and the Vice President's office for a high-1evel

l0 meeti ng 1 i ke that ll MR. VOLKER: Yes.

t2 MR. SWALWELL: what the priorities are?

l3 MR. V0LKER: Typically there would be.

t4 MR. SWALWELL: So you don't know who briefed the V'ice

l5 President on what the meeting should entail?

t6 MR. V0LKER: I don't. I don't. I mean, it was a last

t7 minute swap-in. It was going to have been the President. l8 The President declined, sent Pence instead. l9 MR. SWALWELL: Was there a readout of the meeting?

20 MR. VOLKER: As I said, I barely got any readout of the

2t meet i ng .

22 MR. SWALWELL: What readout did you get?

23 MR. V0LKER: Essentially that it went we11, that

24 concerning security assistance, the Vice President did not

25 have an answer to lifting the hold. So he said, Whatever the 257

1 deci sjon ultimately js, rest assured that we stand side by

2 s i de wi th Ukrai ne, we support you, and that he would advocate

J for a meeting with the President when he got back.

4 1'4R. SWALWELL: Who gave you the readout?

5 MR. VOLKER I don't honestly remember now. The logi ca1

6 person would have been my assi stant at the State Department,

7 Catheri ne Croft.

8 MR. SWALWELL: And do you know if it was orally or

9 electronj cal1y or l0 MR. V0LKER: Yes, ora11y, oralty. ll MR. SWALWELL: And did you seek to obtain any more t2 i nf ormati on post readout j ust so you knew how to deal wl th l3 your Ukrai ni an counterparts?

t4 l4R. VOLKER: I didn't. I figured that that's about as l5 much as I needed to know. I know a lot more. l6 MR. SWALWELL: Let me go back to Mr. Noble.

t7 BY MR. NOBLE: l8 a And in terms of readouts, you got a readout -- l9 that's the readout on the U.S. side, but in your text

20 me55ages, you Seem to get a readout from the foreign minister

2t of Ukraine, Vadym?

22 A Yes. He repeated that same 1 i ne of I don' t

23 maybe you know where it is in the ti mel i ne here. 24 a Sure. So on September Lst, 2019, at L:27. This is

25 page 55. 258

I A Yes.

2 a I 'm j ust goi ng to call hi m Vadym, i f that' s okay . ) A Yes, yes. VadYm.

4 a He writes: Have to recognize it was a good meet.

5 Nobody was rushing. Seems the chemistry was there. It could

6 easily be a very successful meeting with P0TUS. However, on

'i 7 assi stance sj de, t di d not become clear, quote, " regardless

8 of the decision, you have to know that the U.S. is staying

9 strong next to UA i n i ts war aga'inst. . " l0 So help interPret that for us. ll A Right. So I texted Vadym thank you for

t2 reminding me, because I had forgotten thjs How was Pence

13 meet i ng?

14 And Vadym Prystaiko, who is on the verge of being the

l5 forei gn mi ni ster, i f not the forei gn mi ni ster on thi s day,

16 says: "Have to recognize it was a good meet." So it was a

t7 good meeting. "Nobody was rushing. Seems the chemistry was l8 there. It could easily be a very successful meeting with l9 POTUS," meaning that if we have a President Trump-President

20 Zelensky meeting, Vadym is convinced that would go we11. 2t a Okay. So just to set the table, at thjs point in

22 time, September Lst, 2019, the security assistance funds to

23 Ukraine was frozen. The Ukrainians were aware of it.

24 A Yes.

25 a You were sti11, and the Ukrainians were stitl 259

1 pushing for a White House meeting.

2 A Yes.

J a And then they there's this meeting with Vjce

4 Presi dent Pence

5 A Yes.

6 a and the Presi dent of Ukrai ne. And V'ice

7 President Pence can't telt the Ukrainians why the funds are

8 bei ng frozen?

9 A Ri ght. l0 a And can't commit to a White House meeting for ll Presi dent Zelensky?

t2 A He couldn't gi ve a date f or the meeti ng with

l3 President Zelensky, but he undertook to support such a t4 meeti ng.

l5 a At this point in time, had the Ukrainians committed t6 to putti ng out the statement by President Zelensky about t7 Buri sma and the 20L6 elect'ions?

18 A No. l9 a So we had talked about that before, the statement

20 that we were going back you were goi ng back and forth on. 2t A Yeah.

22 a Whatever happened to that statement?

23 A It died. I mean, no one once we started seeing

24 a tempo of engagement wi th Ukraine, we had first the sense

25 that Rudy was not goi ng to be convinced that it meant 260

I anything, and, therefore, convey a posit'ive message to the

2 President if it didn't say Burisma and 20L6.

J I agreed with the Ukrainians they shouldn't do it, and

4 in fact told them just drop it, wait ti11 you have your own

5 prosecutor general in place. Let'S Work on substantive

6 i ssues 1 i ke thi s, securi ty assi stance and all . Let's j ust do

7 that. So we droPPed it.

8 And so by thi s time, there's I'm not actively

9 di scuss'ing that wi th anybody anymore '

l0 Should we cont'inue or - -

ll a Yeah. And then yeah. J ust the next 1 i ne, you t2 say , "Good gr i ef . " l3 A Yes. t4 a "We need to get our side sorted out on the

l5 assi stance. "

t6 A That's much more that's much more like me than

t7 sayi ng, " Damn Date. " l8 a "We need to get our side sorted out on the t9 assistance," meaning the ass'istance to Ukrajne that had been

20 frozen, correct? 2l A Yes.

22 a "But glad the meeting was good overall. Stj11

23 workjng for the White House visit." Right?

24 A Yes.

25 a 0kaY. 261

I A I thi nk that's clear.

2 a And at this point in time, you stjtl did not know

J why the funds supporting Ukraine were being frozen?

4 A To this day, no reason has ever been given.

5 a Can we go to page 54, at the very bottom? I just

6 want to ask you a couple more things about --

7 A Sure.

8 a your messages with the foreign minister.

9 A At thjs tjme, diplomatic advisor to the President. l0 a When did he just so I know going forward, when ll di d he become forei gn mi ni ster? t2 A Around once the government -- so the parliament

13 had to be seated, wh'ich took pIace, I bel i eve, on l4 September 1st. And then once the parliament was seated, then

l5 they could vote i n the mi n'isters. And so somewhere around l6 Lst, 2nd, 3rd, he would have been voted in. t7 a 0kay. And going back to the statement that you l8 said the Ukrainians dropped, did they do that because t9 Zelensky never got a date for a White House meeting?

20 A No. They di d i t because we agreed 'it j ust wasn't a 2t good idea, it's not productive.

22 a So at the very bottom here, Vadym says, "Thank you.

23 It was important contact. I must admit, I felt that you

24 sugarcoated a message on a v'isi t, or the message I got

25 earlier was not correct. The visit went wel1. He is fast 262

I learner and adapts constantly. Frankty, this one was

2 expectedly easy and friendly. Will introduce him to tougher

J ones gradually. What was your reading?"

4 Can you set the scene for us? This is July 4th, 2019'

5 What was goi ng on?

6 A So I met with President Zelensky on the previous

7 day, July 3rd. This was in Toronto. There was a conference

8 hosted by the Canad'ians on supporting Ukrainian economic

9 reforms, and I led the U.5. delegation. l0 And I had this meeting wjth President Zelensky. And

1l Prystai ko, I asked him what h'is take was on the meeti ng. He

t2 said, "Thank you. It was important contact. I must admit, I l3 felt that you sugarcoated a message on a visit."

t4 so I was not as negative about getting a white House

l5 visit scheduled as Prystaiko believed I should have been. I

l6 was sayi ng, " Look, we' re worki ng i t. we wi 11 get thi s done.

t7 You know, it's -- sometimes it takes time' it's hard, but l8 we you know, we are here working this. "

t9 Prystaiko was more anxious about it. And I had probably

20 communicated with him, I can go back and took, but explaining

2t that, you know, we're getting nowhere here. We're trying,

22 but we,re not getting any date out of the white House.

23 And he thought I maybe sugarcoated jt when I should have

24 been more negative in my way of presenting it with President

25 Zelensky. 263

I a Is that because something a message was

2 communicated to him in Toronto, something that made him think

J that you had kjnd of led them on that the White House meeting

4 would be occurri ng soon, or

5 A Well

6 a Why does he think you sugarcoated it?

7 A Yeah. Just exactly what I just said, that in the

8 meeting with President Zelensky, I didn't say, thjs 'is a

9 problem in terms of getting a meeting. I said we are working l0 it, I'm confident we're going to get there, more like that.

ll And so I think he felt that was t2 a Sugarcoating it for President Zelensky?

13 A Sugarcoating it for President Zelensky, yes. t4 a 0kay. Let's go to the top of the next page. And l5 you wrote, "I wanted to make sure he knew we are supporting t6 him," meaning Zelensky, right? l7 A Yeah. l8 a "and hjs stated commitment to reforms, and that l9 there are stjlI concerns at the highest level he needs to

20 address proactively about KoIo" 2t A Kotomoi sky.

22 a That i s Kolomoi sky that you' re talk'ing about

23 ea rl i er?

24 A Yes.

25 a "and whether he wi1l really pursue reforms he 264

I says. I talked to him privately about Giuliani and impact on

2 Presi dent. "

J A Yes.

4 a Let's focus on that last part there. Who are

5 you which President were you referring to?

6 A Presi dent TrumP.

7 a Okay. And what did you communicate to President

8 Zelensky about Giuliani's impact on President Trump?

9 A I told h'im that he bel i eves a lot of these negati ve

l0 narratives about Ukraine; that there may be people around ll Zelensky that are, as he sai d 'in hi s tweet or i n hi s l2 press, enemies of the United States; and that he is

l3 continu'ing to put out a negative narrative, and that that is

t4 probably influencing President Trump's thinking.

15 so this is that discussion that I had on July 3rd with l6 President Zelensky that we talked about earlier.

t7 This text message is my conveying to Vadym Prystaiko,

l8 the diplomatic advisor, what I had told to President Zelensky l9 the day before.

20 O Okay. Thank you. That answers my question on 2t that.

22 So I think I might be done with text messages. I'm not

23 making any promises, but we can set those aside for right

24 now.

25 MR. N0BLE: I'm going to 1et my colleague' Dan Goldman, 265

I ask a few questions.

2 BY MR. GOLDMAN:

J a Ambassador Volker, I want to turn back for a moment

4 to the securi ty assi stance i ssue.

5 Let me direct your attention to Bates number 37 of your

6 text messages, if you have them there . It is one exhibit. I

7 don't know whi ch one.

8 MR. CASTOR: Which one of the exhibits? 37?

9 |v1R. GOLDMAN: Yeah. 37. I'm not sure which one, but l0 on Ju1y L8th

ll MR. CASTOR: 2. It's exhibit 2, page 2

t2 I"IR. GOLDI,IAN: Thank you. Exhj bi t 2.

l3 BY MR. GOLDMAN t4 a 0n July 18th at L0:19 in the morning, can you read l5 what Bj11 Taylor texted to you and Gordon Sondland? l6 A Yes. July L8th, Bitl Taylor: "OMB" Office of t7 Management and Budget, on a SVTC, that's secure video l8 teleconference, it should be a C "just now said that all l9 security assistance to Ukraine is frozen per a conversation

20 with Mulvaney and POTUS. Over to you. " 2t a 5o at that point, you understood that the President

22 of the Uni ted States had 'issued the order to f reeze the

23 Ukra'ini an aid. Is that ri ght?

24 A That is what this says. I had not heard that from

25 my assistant or from others who were at the meeting, so I was 266

I a little confused that this was true, but this is what Bill

2 said.

J a Did you subsequently learn whether that was true or

4 not?

5 A I believe it to be true. I don't know. I don't

6 this I never got a clear explanation as to what happened.

7 a Well, you know that it came from 0MB?

8 A From OMB, which would be Mutvaney as the director.

9 a Right. And also the acting chief of staff, l0 Mulvaney? ll A Yes. l2 a Right? And presumably he's acting at the direction

13 of the President?

t4 A Presumably. l5 a Okay. You don't have any reason to think that this l6 was not a di rect'ive f rom the President, do you?

t7 A No, I don't. l8 a In fact, none of the other agencies understood why l9 this was happening?

20 A Correct. 2t a Right? So it was not coming from any of the other

22 interagencies that you were aware of?

23 A Cor rect.

24 a So when and to your knowledge, up until it

25 became public at the end of August, you were you were not 267

I aware that any Ukrainians knew about this ho1d, is that

2 right

J A That's correct.

4 a on the securi ty assi stance?

5 A That's correct.

6 a But they then became aware of it on, I believe you

7 said, August 29th?

8 A That's my recollection.

9 a 0kay. And then the next day, August 30th, was when l0 Presi dent Trump cancelled hi s tri p to Warsaw. Is that ri ght? ll A I'm not sure what date that was cancelled. It

t2 could be. l3 a Okay. We11, the meeting in Warsaw with Vice t4 Pres'ident Pence was September 1st.

l5 A Yes.

l6 a Ri ght? So Presi dent Trump obv'iously cancelled

t7 before that?

18 A He had been in France at the G-7, and then I

l9 bel i eve he returned to the United States rather than do the

20 other stop

2t a And what did you understand, or what did you learn

22 subsequent to Vi ce President Pence's meeti ng wi th President

23 Zelensky in Warsaw that they d'i scussed rel ated to the

24 securi ty assi stance?

25 A It's exactly the message that we saw on the other 268

I text.

2 a You didn't learn anything more than what was

J written in that message?

4 A No, no.

5 a Okay. Now, Vice President Pence relayed to the

6 Ukrainians -- he did not relay an official explanat'ion for

7 why the aid was bejng he1d. Is that right?

8 A That's my understanding, that's correct.

9 a And you were not aware of any explanation for why

10 the aid was being hetd?

ll A No explanation was ever given.

t2 a And did you relay that to the Ukrainians as well?

13 A Yes, I did.

l4 a So from the Ukrai ni an PersPective, they understood

l5 f rom thei r Ameri can counterParts that, one, the aid was being

t6 held, and two, no one had a reason why. Is that right?

t7 A That i s correct.

l8 a 0kay

l9 A And th ree may 1? Three, that we all thought

20 this is a mistake, and we' re goi ng to fi x i t.

2t a Exactly. I n addi tion, all the professionals who

22 focus on this area of the world thought i t was a mi stake?

./.) A Yes.

24 a Now, f rom J ulY 18th up until September 1st, during

25 that period of time, You became aware of an effort bY Rudy 269

I Gi uli ani , at a mi nimum, to i nfluence Ukrai ni an to open these

2 two particular investigations. Is that right?

J A Yes, to have that included in a statement the

4 Ukrai ni ans would make.

5 a We11, it's not just to have it in a statement --

6 A Yeah.

7 a They wanted

8 A That jf they stated they would do it.

9 a them to begin the investigatjons, right? l0 A Yes. ll a It would be memorialized in a statement -- t2 A Ri ght.

13 a but that's what Gi uI i ani wanted. t4 A Yes. l5 a And now in retrospect, you know from reading that l6 call record that Donald Trump wanted that as wel1, right? t7 A Yes. The call record, I think, kind of speaks for l8 i tself as to what the President said. It's a 1i ttle t9 different than saying Burisma and 2015, but the call record

20 i s there. 2t a Right. As part of your job as a special envoy to

22 Ukraine, do you read all of Presjdent Zelensky's press

23 releases?

24 A Do I read them all? No.

25 a You don't read them all? 270

I A No.

2 a You don't want to know well, did you do you

J think it would be part of your duties to read a readout of

4 President Zelensky related to a telephone call that he had

5 wi th Donald Trump

6 A Yes.

7 a the President of the United States?

8 A Yes. That, I probably saw.

9 a And did you read that Ukrajnian r eadou t ?

l0 A I probably did. I'd have to see i t to remember i f ll I did or not. t2 a 0kay. We1l, I want to mark this as

13 MR. SWALWELL: L2.

t4 MR. G0LDMAN: Exhi bi t L2.

l5 l-4R. CAST0R: We mi ght need copi es of thi s one. l6 MR. NOBLE: We have PlentY of coPies. t7 lVol ke r Exh i b'i t No . L2

l8 was marked for identification. l

l9 BY MR. GOLDMAN:

20 a Do you recognize this to be a readout from the 2t Ukrainians of a call between Presjdent Zelensky and President

22 Trump on July 25th?

23 A Yes, I do recogni ze th'is, and I di d read i t at the

24 time.

25 a So you di d read i t at the t'ime. Could you read the 271

I second paragraph, please?

2 A "Donald Trump is convinced that the new Ukrainian

J Government w'i11 be able to quickly improve image of Ukraine,

4 complete investigation of corruption cases, which inhibited

5 the i nteracti on between Ukrai ne and the U . 5 . A. "

6 a Okay. When you read that at the time, what did you

7 thi nk?

8 A I thought that's good; that that was the whole

9 idea, is for President Zelensky to convince President Trump l0 he is serious about f ighting corrupt'ion, he's going to ll prevent things from happening in the future. t2 We've had enormous issues of pressing Ukraine to fight l3 corruption under previous governments in Ukraine, getting an t4 anticorruption court establi shed, setti ng up a speci al l5 prosecutor's office for corruption cases, special t6 investigatory office of corruption. It was a real struggle l7 to push Ukraine to fight corruption, and that had been an

l8 i mped'i men t .

t9 And so he' s sayi ng that, " I bel i eve Zelensky i s seri ous

20 about changi ng the di recti on of thi ngs. " And he's sayi ng 2l here that he believes that he convinced President Trump that

22 he is serious and will be able to do this, and that will help

23 to improve the U.S.-Ukraine relationship.

24 a All ri ght. Let's try thi s agai n i n a di fferent

25 way. 272

I There was no readout from the office of the presidency

2 here. Is that ri ght?

J A You mean a readout --

4 a There was no official readout from the White House

5 of thi s ca11.

6 A I don' t be1 i eve so, no.

7 a Rlght. Did that strike you as a 1itt1e odd?

8 A Not rea11y. I don't know if all ca11s are read

9 out, and if they are, they are just so perfunctory, you don't l0 learn anything from it anYWaY. ll a So that's a very nice gloss on the call and which t2 he read in this readout, but let me take you back to the text l3 message that you wrote to Andriy Yermak right before this

t4 call where you said, "Heard from Wh'ite House. Assuming l5 President Z convinces Trump he will investigate/'get to the l6 bottom of what happened' in 2016, we will najl down date for

t7 vi si t to Washi ngton. " l8 So with that knowledge jn hand, when you read this, you l9 did not think that what the Ukrainians were referring to was

20 the specific investigation that you told them to reference in

2t the call?

22 A What I said is wel1, two different things.

23 First off, what the actual statement says is "complete

24 i nvesti gati on of cor rupti on cases whi ch i nhi bi ted the

25 interaction." So I take it to mean what it says. 273

I Second, what I sajd concerning that message to Andriy

2 Yermak is, "convince the President, " so be convincing, "and

J get to the bottom of what happened in 2015."

4 5o this is looking backward at whether there was any

5 election i nterference.

6 a So you didn't say to Andriy Yermak: Convince

7 Pres'ident Trump that you are real1y serious about rooting out

8 corruption in Ukrajne, and then we can set a White House

9 visit, did you? l0 A No. You said No. It said I have it in front ll of me here, but you know what it says.

12 a Ri ght.

13 A It says t4 a And given your conversations with Rudy Giuliani and l5 the fact that you had connected Rudy Giuliani to Andriy

16 Yermak shortly before this cal1, you also understood that t7 that was -- that those investigatjons were very important to, l8 at a minimum, Rudy Giulian'i , right? r9 A The connection between Andriy Yermak and Rudy

20 GiuIiani, I believe, is the 22nd of Ju1y. 2l a And this call was the 25th?

22 A Right. And they did not have a detajled

23 conversation unti1 August 2nd when they met in Madrid. 5o I

24 put them together and then had no fo11ow-up from either of

25 them about that other than 274

I a And just to be c1ear, they had planned that meeting

2 in Madrid prior to the Pres'ident's call

J A Correct.

4 a on JulY 25th?

5 A That i s cor rect.

6 a Do you know whether Rudy Giuljani had any role in

7 mak'ing that call happen between President Trump and President

8 Zelensky on July 25th?

9 A I don't know whether he did. l0 a You don't know? ll A No. t2 a You di dn't hear anYthi ng about i t?

13 A No. He did not take credit for that. And I

t4 believe he may have been helpful, but I don't know that. l5 a Okay. 5o moving ahead now where we are with the t6 securi ty ass'istance where I was bef ore j S, you Were aware

t7 that duri ng that whole time f rom m'id JuIy unti 1 late August, l8 that the security assistance had been held l9 A Uh-huh.

20 a and that there was no officiat explanation for 2t i t?

22 A Ri ght.

23 a And then that message was relayed to the Ukrainians

24 at the end of August, right?

25 A Whi ch message? 275

I a That there was there was a hold on the securi ty

2 assi stance and that there WAS NO explanation for why?

J A Yes.

4 a Okay

5 A And that we were going to try to fix it.

6 a And that you were going to try to fix it.

7 And that during this time while that was going on, Rudy

8 Giuliani, and now we know President Trump as well from this

9 ca11, was pushing Ukraine to initiate these jnvestigations, l0 cor rect? ll A That 'is true. t2 a so, Ambassador Volker one moment. l3 Before I get to the next point, if we could go to 42, t4 whi ch I don't bel i eve is an exhibjt. ActuaIly, 'it is. We'11

l5 get the exhi bi t. I'11 f i nd the exh'i bi t . l6 Do you have it in front of you? t7 A I do. l8 a Okay. Near the top of the page, 7/22 at 4:27 p.m., t9 could you read what you texted to Gordon Sondland?

20 A 4:27 p.m.? 2t a Yes.

22 A Kurt Volker: "0rchestrated a great phone call with

23 Ru dy and Yermak. They are goi ng to get together when Rudy

24 goes to Madrid in a couple of weeks. "

25 a Can you read the next one? 276

I A "In the meantime, Rudy is now advocating for a

2 phone call. "

J a And what did you understand that to mean?

4 A That he would support the President calling

5 Zelensky.

6 a We11, you actually used the word "advocating'"

7 That's di fferent than " support, " ri ght?

8 A Yeah. Advocate for, support. That's the same

9 thing. l0 a We11, "advocating" actua11y, doesn't that mean that ll he's actually pushing for it rather than just supporting one?

t2 He's af f i rmati vely try'ing to make a phone call happen, l3 that's -- correct me jf I'm wrong. t4 A Yeah. Is now advocating for a phone calf is now

l5 supporting a phone I -- I take them to be the same, but,

t6 okay; advocating for, urging that there be a phone cal1. t7 a Okay. And if you read two lines down at 4:28:48. l8 A Now, to be clear, I never heard back from Rudy.

t9 That's what he told me, but then I don't know whether he did

20 or not. 2t a Okay. If you could read

22 A Two lines down. "I can tell Bolton and you can

23 te11 Mick" -- that is Mulvaney, the OlvlB Director, that Gordon

24 knows "that Rudy agrees on the call if that helps."

25 a And then 3 days 1ater, the call occurred, right? 277

I A Yes.

2 a And this was a phone call that you had been trying

J to get

4 A Yes.

5 a for a coupte months, right?

6 A Yes.

7 a Now, Ambassador Volker, given the pressure that

8 Rudy Giuliani was putting on the Ukrainian administrat'ion to

9 initiate these'investigations, do you not think that the l0 Ukrainians would not have understood that the actual ll explanation for the security assistance being held up was the t2 fact that they did not issue that statement, or they had not

13 initiated those investigations if there was no official

t4 explanati on? l5 A That I see why you' re aski ng thi s questi on. l6 a Because 'it makes sense? t7 A But even my own understanding of this is back to l8 the meeti ng I had 'in the 0va1 0f f i ce wi th the others and the

t9 Pres'ident i n May.

20 Hjs views on Ukraine were so sharply negative, and 2t reinforced in a negative understanding, that it makes more

22 sense to me, i t's more d'i rect that thi s i s happeni ng

23 independently; that he sees that we are about to launch a

24 notification of millions of dollars to Ukraine. Wait a

25 second. You know, are they can we work with these guys? 278

I Are they corrupt sti11? Why should we be giving them

2 American money? Why aren't the Germans doing this?

J That' s what I 'interpreted at the t'ime what the i ssue i s .

4 And I don't know whether I said it that explicitly to the

5 Ukrainians, but I think it's reasonable to see this as

6 somethi ng happeni ng on i ts own. out 7 a Right. Now, you said in one text that you were Donald 8 of the toop, you had only two phone conversations with

9 Trump, you were not privy to Rudy Giul jani's conversat'ions

l0 wi th the Ukrai ni ans. I s that ri ght? ll A Yes. t2 a And, in fact, you weren't even present for Mike

13 Pence's meet'ing wi th ZelenskY?

t4 A That's correct. l5 a So you don't real1y have firsthand knowledge as to l6 what meSsages were relayed to the Ukrainians. Is that right?

t7 A In those meetings, yes, that's correct' l8 a Yes. That's right. l9 The did you you reviewed the call record of the

20 July 25th call

21 A Yes.

22 a closelY?

23 A Yes.

24 a Did you see anywhere where President Trump mentions

25 the word "corruption"? 279

I A I'd have to go back and read it. I'm suspecting

2 you know the answer. (Pause- referri ng) .

J Okay. I do not see the word "corruption." I see a few

4 things that infer corruption, but I do not see the word

5 "corruption. "

6 a In fact, in your conversation with the President in

7 May, the stated reasons why he had a deeply rooted distrust

8 or dislike of the Ukrainians was because of what he perceived

9 to be their role in the 2015 election and/or the PauI l0 Manaforte case. Is that right? ll A That was mentioned, but it was a long longer t2 statement that "they are all corrupt, they are all terrible l3 people, and," you know, "I don't want to spend any time wlth t4 that." That was it was a broader statement. And he also

l5 said, "and they tried to take me down. " l6 a So he didn't have any specific examples other than t7 the fact that they tried to take him down? l8 A He did not give any other specific examples. t9 a Ri ght. And, i n fact, i n thi s call , he does

20 speci fi cal1y reference an i nvesti gatj on related to the 2015 2t election and an investigation related to Joe Biden, right?

22 A He does.

23 a Okay. So you don't really, s j tt'ing here, bel i eve,

24 do you, that the Pres'ident or Rudy Giuliani needed some

25 assurance that President Zelensky was actually against 280

I corrupt'ion? That's not what they were really concerned

2 about. You understand that, ri ght?

J A Yeah. No, I do believe that. We have to

4 di f f erenti ate between the President and Rudy Gi uIi an'i .

5 What I heard from President Trump in the meeting in the

6 oval offi ce was blanket, 1 i ke, " thi s these are terri ble

7 people, this is a corrupt country, " you know, "I don't

8 believe it."

9 I made the argument that Presjdent Zelensky is the real l0 deal, he is going to try to fix things, and, you know, he

ll just did not betieve it. He waved it off. So there's a

t2 general issue there. l3 He did not mention investigations to me jn that meeting, t4 or call for investigations. I was not aware that he did so

15 i n the J uIy 25th call Iater.

16 His attitude towards Ukraine was just general and

t7 negat i ve.

l8 Rudy G'iu1iani, as we know f rom a 1ot of hjs public l9 commentary, talks about this all the time. He's interested

20 i n that, but that doesn't mean that the President 'is as

2t focused on that as Rudy j s, and so I would I would

22 di fferenti ate there.

23 And I think the target as I saw it, is to make sure the

24 President is not being reinforced in such a negative view,

25 and gets on with a bilateral relatjonship with the new 281

I presi dent.

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I [5 :05 p .m. ]

2 BY MR. GOLDMAN:

J a Are you aware of President Trump expressing

4 publicly any concerns about corruption in any other

5 countries? know 6 A Wel1, Russia. I've heard him mention, you

7 O You have? j on 8 A corrupti on n Russi a, i n the same conversati ' been 9 like they're all terrible. I can't say that I've l0 O Do you recall -- just on the topic of Russia, do

l1 you recall when President Trump in Helsinki sajd that he

t2 beli eved Vtadimi r Puti n over hi s i nte1li gence agenci es?

13 A I do remember that press conference' t4 a OkaY. l5 A But we're talking about corruption, and I think , l6 we re talki ng rea11y, you know, btisi ness c1 i mate there.

t7 MR. NoBLE: But President Trump took multi ple meeti ngs l8 with President Putin but would not meet with President

t9 Zelensky, right? To this day he's not met with President

20 Zelensky in the 0va1 0ffice, but he would take meetings with

2t Presi dent Puti n. so i f he's truly concerned about

22 corruption, why meet with Putin but not meet with Zelensky?

23 I"lR. VOLKER: Yeah. I Can't anSWer other than that I

24 think it's important that both take p1ace. You know, it's

25 important to fight corruption. It's important that the 283

I President meet w'ith Zelensky and support him. It's also

2 important that the President meet with President Putin

J because we can't have a risk of conflict with Russia either.

4 BY I,lR. GOLDMAN:

5 a Ambassador Votker, we understand that you are in a

6 difficult position, and I don't think anyone here has any

7 doubt that you were singularly focused on promoting the

8 bilateral relat'ionship between the United States and Ukraine

9 and supporti ng Ukra'ine i n the'i r ef f orts to promote democracy l0 and in their best interest, which I take it you understand is ll also in our best interest. t2 A Yes. l3 a Is that right? t4 But you don't live under a rock. And for you to sit l5 here and say that you don't think that through all of your l6 ef f orts to persuade Rudy G'iuf iani , through all of the

l7 Ukrai n'i an ef f orts to commun'icate and coordi nate wi th Rudy

l8 Gi ut'iani that he's acti ng alone as a rogue actor wi thout any t9 connectjon to Donald Trump, who is his client.

20 And part of the reason that we know that and that you 2t know that sitting here is that both Rudy Giuliani and

22 President Trump have admitted as much. So I'm struggling to

23 understand why you are sti1l trying to teI1 us that they were

24 not jnterested in pursuing these jnvestigat"ions and that that

25 had nothi ng to do wi th the Presi dent's v'iews on Ukrai ne? 284

A We11, there's a difference between understanding at

2 the t'ime and what we have in pubtic domain today. 5o at the

J time, neither President Trump nor Rudy Giuliani, after that

4 first breakfast meeting that I had with him, ever brought up

5 Joe Biden.

6 I had pushed back on that and separated it, and said'

7 one thing about corruption in Ukraine, whether Ukrainian

8 officials may have done improper things, Burisma, or

9 otherwi se, and that and so every t'ime that came up af ter l0 that I felt I had already put up that marker' ll a 0kay. Now, understandi ng that you've been t2 testifying today primarily to what you knew at the time, l3 let's just take a step back and look back with hindsight that

t4 i s 20/20, because you know thi s area very welt. You're an l5 expert in this area.

t6 Now, looking back, as you see it today, understanding

t7 that you are not privy to a lot of this informatjon, do you l8 recogni ze the concerns or the Ukrai n'ian do you l9 recognize that the UkrajnianS may very well have perceived

20 that the securi ty assi stance hold related to Rudy G'i uli ani 's 2t efforts to i nfluence them to i ni ti ate these i nvesti gati ons?

22 A Ri ght. Is i t possi b1e that they be1 i eve that, yes,

23 i t' s possi ble. I had conversati ons wi th them about thi s

24 after August 29, and for about a week and they never raised

25 that wi th me. 285

I a Understood.

2 Mr. Noble, do you want to go through a couple of the

Ja other meeti ngs?

4 BY MR. NOBLE:

5 a Sure. And I wanted to go back to a pojnt of

6 clarification. When we were talking about the statement that

7 was being drafted in August of 2018, I believe you testified

8 it was never issued.

9 A Ri ght. l0 a The Ukrainians dropped it. But they continued to ll talk about a poss'ible i ntervi ew - - t2 A Yes.

l3 a that President Zelensky was going to do,

t4 co r rec t?

l5 A Yes. I was not i nvolved in that. I heard about t6 that from Gordon Sondland that he had been i n touch wi th

t7 Ukrai ne, and there was talk about Zelensky gi vi ng an

l8 i ntervi ew in which he would talk about hi s commi tment to

19 i nvesti gati ng thi ngs that happened i n the past. I don't know

20 the details of those conversations, and I don' t bel i eve any 2l such i ntervi ew happened.

22 a And was the plan for that intervjew for Pres'ident

23 Zelensky to specifically mention Burisma and the 2016

24 electi ons?

25 A I don't know. 286

I a So I would like to go through and talk about some

2 of the other conversations between u.s. officials and ) Ukrai ni ans, and I 'm goi ng to do thi s i n chronologi cal order. .ike 4 5o I'd f to go back i n time to Apri 1 2L of 2019 when

5 President Zelensky was elected. And there was, I understand,

6 a congratulatorY call --

7 A Yeah.

8 a between Presjdent Trump and President Zelensky.

9 Is that correct? l0 A That i s cor rect. ll a Di d You Parti ci Pate i n that call? t2 A I did not. l3 a Okay. Djd you get a readout about the call? t4 A Just that it was a good congratulatory phone cal1. l5 That's all. t6 a Do you know how long the call lasted? t7 A I don't. l8 a You do not? l9 A No.

20 a Okay. Do you know who else parti ci pated i n the 2l catl?

22 A I don't.

23 a Okay. And do you know what in sum and substance

24 was said by President Trump and President Zelensky during the

25 call? 287

I A No. My understanding is that it was just a

2 congratulatory phone call on his election victory.

J O Do you know whether they discussed Joe Biden or

4 Hunter Bi den?

5 A I don't.

6 a Do you know whether they discussed Burisma?

7 A I do not.

8 a Do you know whether they discussed Paut Manafort?

9 A I don't.

l0 a Do you know whether they discussed a White House ll vi si t?

t2 A I don't.

13 a Do you know whether there's a transcript or a

t4 summary or a memo or notes of that call?

l5 A I don't know that either.

t6 a You never saw such notes?

t7 A No. No.

l8 a Did you ever discuss the calI with Secretary Pompeo l9 or anyone else at the State Department?

20 A Just the fact of a congratulatory phone ca11, no 2t more than that.

22 a Did anyone ever express any concerns about the

23 Apri 1 2Lst catl?

24 A Not that I heard.

25 a So I'd like to now turn to the May 20, 2019, the 288

I U.S. delegation to the inauguration of President Zelensky in

2 Kyiv.

3 A Yes.

4 a It's our understanding that the White House had put

5 the inauguration for President Zelensky on Vice President

6 Pence's calendar, but at some po'int President Trump

7 instructed Vice President Pence not to attend the

8 inauguration. Were you aware of that at the time?

9 A I was aware that we were trying to get Vice l0 President Pence to lead the delegation, and in the end he ll wasn't able to do So. Given that this was put together over t2 the course of a couple days, I'm not surprised I wasn't

13 surprised at the time that the Vice President couldn't do it. t4 a Do you know the reason why President Trump directed

15 Vice President Pence not to go to the inauguration?

t6 A I was not aware that it was at the direction of

t7 President Trump, and I assumed it was just a matter of

18 schedul i ng. l9 a Who led the U.S. delegation?

20 A Secretary of EnergY Rick PerrY. 2t a Why was that?

22 A Cabinet leve1, so that we were at teast, if we

23 weren't getting the vice presjdent, it was Stil1 important to

24 have Someone at a cabinet 1eve1, and because We have a 1ot of

25 issues with Ukraine on energy. He has an interest in 289

I Ukra'ine, so I th'ink he was very happy to take on the

2 assignment.

J a To what extent had Secretary Perry been involved in

4 U . S. -Ukrai ne relati ons up to that poi nt?

5 A He and I had not really intersected up to that

6 point on Ukraine. I had known him years past, but nothing

7 concerning Ukraine in a contemporary time space until we went

8 there together.

9 a Who are the three amigos? l0 A That refers -- I don't use that phrase either ll because I think of three other people as the three amigos

t2 a Fai r enough.

r3 A But that refers Gordon Sondland usually uses

t4 that, and he was referring to himself and to Rick Perry and

l5 to me. l6 a Why di dn' t Secretary Pompeo lead the delegat'ion? t7 Wouldn't he have been more approprjate? l8 A He would have been a great cholce. I don't know l9 why, probably also scheduli ng.

20 a 0kay. Who else was i n the U. S. delegat'ion bes'ides

2t Secretary Per ry?

22 A Senator Ron Johnson WAS there as well and our

23 Charge d'affaires at the time Joe Penn i ngton .

24 a Joe Penni ngton?

25 A Yeah. 290

I a Was Ambassador Sondl and the re?

2 A Yes, he WAS one of the one s i n the delegati on.

J a 0kay. And you were there as well?

4 A Yes.

5 a Okay. Do you know who they met with in Kyiv during

6 the i naugurati on, whi ch Ukrai ni an offi ci a1s?

7 A I have to think back. We met with President

8 Zelensky. Several advisers were wjth him in that meeting.

9 We met with the speaker of the parliament, the then-speaker l0 of the parfiament because it was before the parliamentary ll election. Yeah, I'd have to think back who else we may have

t2 met wi th. l3 a 0kay. Duri ng the meeti ng w'ith Zelensky, was there l4 any di scussi on about Rudy Gi uli ani or the i nvesti gati ons

l5 A No. t6 a that we've been talk'ing about? t7 A No. That did not come uP. l8 a Do you know whether President Trump directed anyone l9 in the U.S. delegatjon to deliver a message to Zelensky about

20 the i nvesti gati ons?

2t A No.

22 a You don't know one way or the other?

23 A I don't know one way or the other. I don't believe

24 anything's happened, but I don't know.

25 a Do you know whether Ambassador Sondland delivered 291

I any message to President Zelensky or any of his advisers?

2 A I don't believe so. I don't know.

J a Do you know whether Ambassador Sondland had any

4 one-on-one meetings or meetings that you did not attend while

5 you were in Kyiv for the inauguration?

6 A For the inauguration, I bef ieve we did everything

7 together.

8 HR. CASTOR: I thi nk we've got the 45 minutes is up.

9 MR. NOBLE: Okay. We have more, but we'11 turn it over l0 to you. ll MR. CAST0R: 0kay. Anybody need a break? t2 MR. V0LKER: Yeah, maybe a quick break.

l3 MR. N0BLE : 5-mi nute break?

t4 MR. V0LKER: Yeah . l5 lRecess.I l6 MR. BITAR: We'11 return on the record. It's 5:27 for

t7 the mi nor i ty.

l8 MR. NUNES : Welcome, Ambassador. 1'1y name i s Devon l9 Nunes. I'm from California. I just wanted to welcome you to

20 the commi ttee. 2t MR. V0LKER: Thank you.

22 MR. NUNES: I was a litt1e surprised that this was sti11

23 going, so I'm sure you're exhausted. But from what I

24 understand, you' re answeri ng the questi ons, sti cki ng to the

25 facts, and I appreciate your willingness to come in on your 292

I own and testify before the committee here. ) MR. V0LKER: Thank You, Congressman.

J |VlR. NUNES: And I don't think we have very many

4 questjons 1eft, if any, but we may have just a couple.

5 BY MR. CASTOR: your 6 a Yeah. Just a few. We're very respectful of

7 time. These all-day intervjews can be a challenge, so we

8 would like we wish you could get home by, you know, 6:00

9 or at Some reasonable hour, So We'11 try not to stand in the l0 way of that. ll A Thank you. t2 a Appreciate you sticking to the facts that you have l3 firsthand knowledge about. In the last round there was some

t4 questions that present some ambiguous facts

l5 A Uh-huh. l6 a you know, for what reason Vice President Pence t7 didn't lead the delegation. You know, that's what

18 i nvesti gati ons do. They look for evi dence and proof. And,

t9 you know, you were asked whether Vice President Pence didn't

20 travel because of, you know, the aid iSSue or there WaSn't an

2t investigation into Joe Biden and so forth. And you testified

22 that you didn't have any firsthand knowledge on that and, in

L) fact, you sajd it was probably his schedule.

24 A That was my assumption. It is difficult to get

25 things on the President or Vice President's calendar. 293

I a And you ment'ioned that it happened on short notice?

2 A It was a very short notice announcement of when the

Ja inauguration would be, so I think, as a -- you know, anybody

4 in the world only had like 4 days'notice, and putting

5 together a presidential delegation in that short space of

6 t'ime is tough.

7 a But the delegation did include some key players,

8 Senator Johnson?

9 A Yes. l0 a Secretary Perry? ll A Yes. t2 O And Ambassador Sondland? l3 A Sondl and. t4 a So that was a very reasonable size delegation? l5 A It was a very it was the largest delegation from l6 any country there, and it was a high-1eve1 one. t7 a Okay. So there's no reason to suggest that the l8 roster of officials on the delegation was anything less than

t9 what you'd expect?

20 A Rlght. It would have been nice to have the Vice 2t President, but, you know, you can't always yeah.

22 a 0r the Secretary?

23 A Yeah.

24 a You were asked whether there's any mentjon of

25 corruption on the ca11, going back to Exhibit 4, the readout 294

I of the telephone conversation. I'm not certa"in the word

2 "corruption" appears, but, you know, if you turn to page

J three at the bottom

4 A Yes.

5 a the President says some very bad people.

6 A Yes.

7 a You know, I don't know 1f that's an ambiguous

8 statement or not, but, you know, reasonable people could

9 equate very bad people --

l0 A Ri ght. ll a to corrupti on. t2 A Yes. So the question that I answered was whether l3 the word "corruption" appears and does the President say it. t4 And I said, no. I said, there are some things that you can

15 infer, and that was what I was looking at is, he tatks about l6 a prosecutor who was very good gett'ing shut down, says that's

t7 really unfair. He says, they shut down -- you had some very

18 bad people involved. So that's an inference even if it's not l9 using the word "corruption."

20 a At various points today we've talked about the 2t President's deep-seated concern about Ukraine, the business

22 culture there. And we've gone through several reasons why

23 the President may have had that view, whether jt was related

24 to hi s pri or busi ness experi ence

25 A Possi bly. 295

I a whether it was related to the business

2 experience of his colleagues in the bus'iness community

3 A Possi bly.

4 a whether it related to Paul Manafort

5 A Possibty.

6 a whether it related to, you know, this allegation

7 of Ms. Chalupa. But among all of those things, you would

8 testify that indeed the President had a very genuine

9 A Yes. l0 a deep-seated concern about Ukraine and ll corruption, for whatever reason, a variety of reasons? t2 A Yes. l3 a Is that true? t4 A That is true, and that was crystal clear to me. l5 a And you have been with the President and you've had t6 readouts about his concerns about Ukraine. t7 A Uh-huh.

l8 a And so i s i t fai r to say that thi s wasn't a l9 pretext - -

20 A Ri ght. 2l a for alt thi ngs Bi den?

22 A Cor rect.

23 a 0kaY.

24 A Correct.

25 a Exhibit L2 was the Ukrainians' readout from the 296

I call.

2 A Say that again?

J a Exhibit L2 earlier was the

4 A Oh, yes, the statement from the President's 0ffice

5 of Ukraj ne, Yes. poi today 6 a Right. And, You know, at various nts

7 we've talked about, you had a readout from the State

8 Depa r tmen t after the call happened?

9 A Uh-huh.

l0 a Nobody totd you anything about that?

ll A Ri ght.

t2 a You had a readout from your Ukrainian folks

13 A Ri ght.

t4 a that you have a rather sophisticated

15 relationshi P wi th

t6 A Yes.

t7 a I mean, you're in constant contact with these

t8 Ukrai ni an officials?

t9 A Yes.

20 a You have trust. TheY trust You?

2l A Yes.

22 a And they never mentioned anything about Joe Biden

23 to you?

24 A That's correct.

25 a And then on this readout I don't see the word 297

I "Biden, Burisma, Hunter Biden, " anythi ng, ri ght?

2 A That is correct.

J a 0kay. So th'is is like another data point, a piece

4 of evidence about the call that, you know, if you're looking

5 to characterize what happened on the ca11, this is another

6 piece of evidence?

7 A Ri ght.

8 a Thjs morning we spoke in some detail about the

9 delay i n the assi stance funds. l0 A Yes. ll a And you testified that these delays happen. t2 A They do. l3 a There are complicated facts. There's different t4 power centers on any type of assistance to a foreign nat'ion l5 Is that correct? l6 A In general, yes, that's true. t7 a Okay. But you believed all along that these l8 assistance funds would be released? l9 A Yes.

20 a And the Unjted States commitment -- 2l A Yes.

22 a to stepping up the aid to Ukraine, and

23 especially the types of aid, the more 1etha1 and helpi ng them

24 with some, you know, anti-weapons systems, was it in the

25 Uni ted States i nterest? 298

I A Yes.

2 a Was it in the interest of Ukraine?

J A Yes.

4 a And you expressed confidence' you know, that this

5 aid would be released?

6 A Yes, I did.

7 a And you also testified that you tried to convey

8 that to the Ukrainians?

9 A Yes, I di d. l0 a And you tried to convey that to the other U.S. ll offic'ials?

t2 A Yes. l3 a So to the extent there were some, you know, t4 hair-on-fire moments, for lack of a better word, that this l5 wasn' t go'ing to happen, yotl stayed the course, you stayed l6 confident, and indeed, in the end, the assistance funds

t7 were

l8 A That i s exactlY ri ght. t9 a There was some di scussi on about whether President

20 Trump has met wi th Rudy Gjuliani in the 0va1 Office. Are You

2l aware of any such things?

22 A I have no knowledge of that.

23 a Presi dent TrumP has met w'i th I'm sorry, wi th

24 Vladi mi r Putin in the 0va1 0ffice?

25 A Is that a quest'ion? 299

I a Yeah. Do you know i f

2 A I don't know. I'd have to go back and check. I

J know he's had meeti ngs wi th Puti n. I don't know whether he's

4 met him in the Oval Office.

5 a Most of these meetings have occurred in

6 i nternati onal locati ons, haven' t they?

7 A That's my understandi ng, yeah.

8 a But I believe there was a suggestion that Putin had

9 been invited to the Ovat Office and Zelensky hadn't jn one l0 of the earlier rounds? ll A Yeah. There have been meetings with President t2 Puti n.

l3 a Ri ght. l4 A And there had been no it had been difficult l5 schedul i ng a meeti ng wi th Presi dent Zelensky. That bei ng t6 said, we had a meeting with President Poroshenko in 20t7.

t7 Presi dent Zelensky was elected i n l'lay of 2019, and we had a l8 meeti ng i n September of 2019. So 'it took a lot of work, but t9 we got there.

20 a But since President Trump has been'in office, 2l you're not aware of any meeting wjth Vladimir Putin in the

22 0va1 0ffice, are you?

23 A No.

24 a In New York the President did meet with Zelensky?

25 A Yes. 300

a And so the President has met with Zelensky at

2 international meetings, this one happened to be in New York,

Ja just like the President has met with Vladimir Putin at

4 i nternati onal meeti ngs, correct?

5 A That i s cor rect. Perry' 6 a 0kay. I think that's al1 we have for Mr'

7 I 'm sorry.

8 MR. PERRY: Thank You.

9 Ambassador, in the last series there was a 10t of time you 10 spent on the fact that the funds weren't forthcoming and

l1 didn't know why, nobody seemed to know why, but you were

t2 going to have to address the officials in the Ukrainian

13 Government in your normal course of your business'

t4 And it was implied that surely they knew because of

l5 Mr . Gi u1 j ani ' s statements, thi ngs i n the press, that there l6 could only be one thing, right. we don't have the money.

t7 The money is not forthcoming yet. You can't tel1 me the

18 reason why. So the onty reason that can be i s because these

t9 investigations are or are not involved. That was kind of the

20 implication.

2t Now, previously jn another round you had talked to me

22 about the trust that the same officials from Ukraine had in

23 you personally.

24 MR. V0LKER: Yes.

25 MR. PERRY: And you had conversat'ions with them about 301

I the fact

2 t"lR. VOLKER: Yes.

J MR. PERRY: -- that the money was not forthcoming and

4 you d'idn't know why.

5 MR. V0LKER: Yes.

6 MR. PERRY: And not once did they imp1y, ask, infer that

7 you know of that it had anything to do with investigation?

8 MR. V0LKER: That is true.

9 MR. PERRY: And you're confjdent that if that was l0 something they were concerned about, that they were worried ll that that was there was a connect'ion, a nexus, that they t2 would have asked you or brought that up as a possibility? l3 MR. VOLKER: It never came up 'in conversation with them, t4 and I believe they had trust in me that they would have asked l5 if that was rea11y what they were worrjed about. l6 MR. PERRY: Okay. I yie1d. t7 MR. CAST0R: That's all we have for now. l8 MR. SWALWELL: Ambassador, with respect to the security t9 assistance, am I correct that that was appropriated by

20 Congress in 2018? Is that right? 2t MR. VOLKER: I beljeve that's right.

22 MR. SWALWELL: Okay. And so the second that's

23 appropriated and the President signs into 1aw, the Ukrainians

24 have an expectation that i t's coming. Is that right?

25 MR. VOLKER: That is correct. 302

I MR. SWALWELL: 0kay. so whether they learned about the

2 hold in August or before, every day that goes by after it's

3 appropriated and they don't receive it, as far as they're

4 concerned, i t's bi nary. They don' t have i t. Is that ri ght?

5 MR. V0LKER: Yes, I think that's fair.

6 MR. SWALWELL: okay. I'11 turn'it over to Mr. Noble.

7 BY ]"IR. NOBLE : or 8 a In the text messaging exchange on September 8

9 September 9 with Bill Taylor, where he says that he believes l0 that the aid was being held up and the White House visit was ll being wjthheld because of the investigationS, do you know why

t2 he had that concern or what basis he had for believing that?

l3 A No, I don't. I believe, and I'd have to go back

t4 and read it again, but I believe it was the Politico art'icle

l5 that suggested that. And we, Gordon Sondland and I, both l6 spoke with Bitl and said, I don't think that's it, and don't

t7 panic over this. We are working to get this fixed. l8 a But 8111 Taylor was threatening to resign if that l9 turned out to be the case, that that was U.S. policy?

20 A No, I think the way I read his note, if we actually

2t did not deliver the security assistance, that would be a

22 major change in u.s. policy and that would cause hjm to

23 resign.

24 a I'd like to ask you about Secretary Perry. After

25 the l,lay 20 delegation to Kyiv, d'id he have a continuing role 303

I goi ng forward i n deal i ng wi th Ukrai ne?

2 A He did. We tried to work as a team, that group

J that had been part of the presidential delegatjon, at least

4 Gordon and Rick Perry and myself and with Bj11 Taylor, in

5 order to try to keep momentum, keep Ukraine on the front

6 burner, bui 1d a bi lateral relati onshi p, get the Whi te House

7 vi si t, and so f orth. And he had some part'icular i ssues i n

8 the energy sector that he was very keen on working with the

9 Ukrai ni ans, and so he was very act'ive on that. l0 a Okay. So he continued to communicate with the ll Ukrainjans at that point -- from that point? t2 A Yes. Yes, I'm sure he did. l3 a Okay. I want to ask you about the May 23,201.9, l4 0val 0ffice meeting. l5 A Yes. l6 a I think we talked a little about that at the t7 beginning. But could you just remind us, who all was present l8 for that meeting? t9 A Yes. To recap, we had the delegatjon that had been

20 the presidential delegation, Rick Perry, myself, Gordon

2t Sondland, and Senator Johnson. I believe Mr. Kupperman, the

22 deputy nati onal securi ty advi ser was there, I be1 i eve

23 Mr. Mulvaney was there, but I'm not sure about that. 0ur

24 Charge at the t"ime in Kyiv, Joe Pennington, was not there.

25 O Okay. And approximately how long did the meeting 304

I last?

2 A I woutd suspect about a half an hour.

J a And can you describe the di scussi on

4 A Yes.

5 a that occurred?

6 A Yes. The Pres'ident started the meeting and started

7 wi th ki nd of a negat'ive assessment of the Ukrai ne. As I 've

8 said earlier

9 a Yep. l0 A i t's a terri ble pIace, all corrupt, terri ble ll people, j ust dumPi ng on Ukrai ne. t2 a And theY were out to get me in 2015. l3 A And they were out to get and they tried to take

l4 me down.

15 a In 20L6?

16 A Yes. And each of us took turns from this

t7 delegati on gi vi ng our poi nt of vi ew, wh'ich was that thi s i s a

l8 new crowd, jt's a new President, he is committed to doing the l9 ri ght thi ngs. I beli eve I said, he agrees wi th you. That's

20 why he got elected. It is a terribte p1ace, and he

2l campaigned on cleaning it UP, and that's why the Ukrainian

22 people supported h'im.

23 So, you know, we strongly encouraged him to engage with

24 thi s new Presj dent because he's commj tted to fi ght'i ng all of

25 those things that President Trump was complaining about. 305

I a And how did the President react?

2 A He just didn't believe it. He was skeptical. And

J he also said, that's not what I hear. I hear, you know, he's

4 got some terrible people around him. And he referenced that

5 he hears from Mr. Giuliani as part of that.

6 a Can you explain a little bi"t more about what the

7 Presi dent sai d about Rudy Gi uli ani j n that meeti ng?

8 A He said that's not what I hear. I hear a whole

9 bunch of other things. And I don't know how he phrased it l0 with Rudy, but it was I think he said, not as an ll instruction but just as a comment, talk to Rudy, you know. t2 He knows all of these things, and they've got some bad people

13 around him. And that was the nature of it. t4 It was clear that he also had other sources. It wasn't l5 only Rudy Glul i ani . I don' t know who those mi ght be, but l6 he or at least he said, I hear from people. t7 a 0kay. Did anyone else come into the 0va1 0ffice

18 during the meeting that you can reca11? t9 A Not that I can recalI. It's possible, but I was

20 sitting facing the desk, and he was sitting facing us, and I

21 couldn't see what was happening behind me.

22 a He being the President?

23 A Yeah, the President sitting at his desk, the

24 delegation facing him, and I could not see what was happening

25 behind. 306

I a 0kay. Do you know whether Rudy Giuljani was at the

2 White House that daY?

J A I don't.

4 a He was not in the meetinS?

5 A He was not in the meeting.

6 a And what was the outcome of that meeti ng? What was

7 the conclusion, the takeawaYs?

8 A The outcome was that the President agreed to sign a jnvite 9 congratulatory letter to President Zelensky and h'im to

t0 the White House. ll O And that's the letter we talked about earlier? t2 A And that's the letter we have. l3 a Okay. So I 'd tlke to move on , ask you qui ckly t4 about a June 4, 2019 meeting between Jared Kushner and

l5 Presjdent Zelensky at the U.S. mission to the EU's l6 Independence Day celebration. Are you aware of that meeting?

t7 A I am aware of President Zelensky going to U.S. l8 or to the European Union, and I believe there was a dinner l9 that Gordon Sondland was at w'i th hi m or maybe Gordon even

20 hosted. I'm not sure who else was there. 2t a Did you attend the meeting?

22 A I did not.

23 a 0kay. Did you PreP the meeting?

24 A No, I did not.

25 a Okay. Did you get a readout from the meeting? 307

I A I did not really get a readout ei ther, other than

2 Go rdon told me that Jay Leno was there. And that was

3 a Why was Jay Leno there?

4 A I have no i dea.

5 a And who else Secretary Perry was there, cor rect?

6 A I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.

7 a 0h, you don't know.

8 A I don't know.

9 a You don't know the parti ci pants on the U.S. side?

l0 A No, I don't.

ll a Do you know anything else about the June 4 meeting?

t2 A I don't. I was not rea11y plugged into that.

l3 a A11 right. So I want to move to jump to the

t4 J uly L0th meeti ng.

l5 A Yes.

l6 a This is with the Ukrai ni ans.

t7 A Yes. l8 a Danytyuk and Yermak at the Whi te House?

t9 A Yes . Yes . Wi th J ohn Bol ton .

20 a Can you just descrjbe kind of the course of events 2l for the Ukrainians visit to Washington, D.C., who they met

22 with, the sequence of meetings that you participated in, just

23 give us the lay of the land.

24 A Yeah. To the best of my recollect'ion, Danylyuk was

25 coming in his officia1 capacity as the chairman of the 308

I National Security and Defense Council for a meeting with

2 Bolton as a counterpart, So starting up that relationship' I

J had drinks with him the night before.

4 Andriy Yermak v,,as also in town at the same time. This

5 was not fulty coordjnated between the two of them. And there

6 was some obvious, I don't want to call it tension, but a

7 litt1e sense of Danylyuk assuming the official role when

8 Yermak feels that he's the one closer to President Zelensky,

9 so it just created a little bit of a dynamic between them l0 that you could see. I met with so I said I met with ll Danylyuk for drinks in the evening before. t2 a Where did You have drinks? l3 A At the Metropolitan C1ub. And the next morning I

t4 met with Yermak for coffee.

15 a And where was that? t6 A And that was at the Trump Hotel. And then I saw

t7 both of them at the meeting with John Bolton. l8 a At the Whi te House? t9 A At the White House.

20 a 0kay. And remind us who the other participants 2t were

22 A I believe it was Ri ck Perry, Gordon Sondland,

23 myself, an NSC staffer, I'm not sure who it was now, somebody

24 from the National Securi tY Counci 1 staff, John Bo1 ton

25 himself. 309

I a What was discussed at the meeting, sum and

z substance?

J A Yeah. It was

4 a Is this the one you were telling us about earlier

5 where Danylyuk was getting way too bureaucratic?

6 A Exactly, yes. It was talking about legjslation to

7 reform the security services, legislation to reform the

8 defense establishment, and really getting down into the

9 bureaucratic weeds, and not conveying a top-1eve1 message, a l0 strategic message. ll And Yermak didn't say a word in the meeting. It was t2 only Danylyuk doing his presentation and talking because he l3 was Yermak was respecting Danylyuk's role of making this t4 presentation. And the meeting was just kind of f1at, and I

l5 thought i t was a mi ssed opportun'i ty. t6 a Did you have a goal for the meeting, something that t7 was supposed to happen with Bolton? l8 A Well , two thi ngs: One of them, I wasn't i nvolved t9 in scheduling the meeting. It was just a normal, you know,

20 he's coming as a new counterpart, but I was hoping that 2l Danylyuk would give Bolton more of a political sense about

22 what's going on in Ukraine, who the new team is, who Zelensky

23 is, and he didn't talk about that. So I thought that was the

24 mi ssed opportuni ty. He did not convey what's real1y

25 happen i ng . 310

I And I was also hoping that wjth that John Bolton would

2 become more act'ivated 'in tryi ng to get the date for the

3 Whi te House vi si t f or Zelensky, and that d'idn't happen.

4 a Which had been promised by President Trump in that

5 letter?

6 A Yes.

7 a At the end of May?

8 A Yes. And that's why I texted Bill Taylor that this

9 was not good. l0 a Was there any discussion during that meeting about ll Giuliani's --

t2 A No. l3 a acti vi t'ies i n Ukra j ne? t4 A No. l5 a 0kay. Anythi ng about the j nvesti gati ons that we've t6 been talking about?

t7 A No. l8 a Was there any di scussion about possi ble U. S. t9 sanctions on a Russian oil pipeline?

20 A That's possi ble. I don't remember, but i t i s

2t possible that that was a toPic.

22 a Was there a djscussion of possible Trump-Zelensky

23 0va1 0ffice meeting at that meeting?

24 A Yes. Yes. I 'm sure 'in 25 a What was di scussed that about that? 311

I A It was just do we have a date for a visit yet, and

2 John Bolton saying, rto, we don't have a date

5 a Did he give an explanation why?

4 A I bel i eve i t was j ust schedul i ng. You know, i t' s

5 tough to schedule. The President's got a lot of th'i ngs

6 stacked up on hi s calendar looking forward, not giving a

7 substant'ive rea50n but a scheduling reason.

8 a That's what Bolton gave?

9 A Yes. l0 a Okay. Were there any other meetings between the

ll Ukrainians and U S. Government offi ci als on that vi si t to

t2 D.C.? l3 A Probably. I don't know. Well , I do know. I take t4 that back. I do know that Andriy met wjth Members of

l5 Congress. t6 a Do you know who Andriy met w'i th? l7 A I don't. But he told l8 a Did you ever get a readout of who l9 A No. No. He told me subsequently and it was

20 probably we're probably looking at least a month 1ater, we 2t were talking, and he mentioned that not only was he there for

22 the Bolton meeting but he had other meetings with Members of

23 Congress as we11, bipartisan.

24 a I want to jump forward to JuIy 25, 2019. That's

25 the day after the Trump Zelensky cal1. 312

I A Yes.

2 a You had a meeting jn Kyiv along with Ambassador ) Sondland and Ukrainian officials, correct?

4 A Yes.

5 a Who did You meet with?

6 A So on the 25th I had a series of meetings with a

7 variety of people. I wanted to meet with the heads of each

8 of the different parties that had been elected to the

9 parliament. So new parliament, new people in town. l0 so that would include Poroshenko, who has his own party; ll Tymoshenko, who has her own party; slava vakarchuk (ph), who

t2 has a new party called The Voice; a representatjve of the

l3 United 0ppos'ition Block, which tends to be more Russian

t4 leaning, that was BoYko.

l5 And I'm sure there are a few others. I think I had a l6 breakfast with humanitarian organjzations working in the

t7 Donbas, maybe a civil society group as well that are dealing l8 with the anticorruption issues. The next day I had lunch l9 with Yermak that day as we1l, on the 25th.

20 a 0n the 25th? 2l A 0n the 25th.

22 0n the 25th I had I guess that's when I had the

23 breakfast with the humanitalian organizations. We had a

24 meeting with President ZeIensky. Bill Taylor was at that

25 meeting as welt, along with other staff from the embassy. 313

I And then we went out to visit the conflict zone.

2 a 0kay. Did you di scuss wi th the Ukrai ni ans after

Ja President Trump and Pres'ident Zelensky's catl about the ca11,

4 havi ng any di scussi ons

5 A Just very briefly as we discussed before, just top

6 1ines. They were pleased that the call had taken place. It

7 was a congratulatory cal1. They thought it went wel1. And

8 they were encouraged again because the President had asked

9 them to pick dates for coming to the White House. l0 Can I also add

ll a Su re. t2 A the principle topic of the meeting with Zelensky l3 at the time was what was going on in Stanjtsa Luhanska with t4 the d'isengagement of Ukrainian forces, what the Russians were

l5 doi ng, and how the Ukra'ini ans now saw the next steps of how t6 to improve the ceasefi re, work towards Minsk implementation. t7 This was the first time that Zelensky really seemed to l8 have a command of those i ssues and was do'ing thi ngs. And so t9 we had a -- I'd say, at least two-thirds of the conversation,

20 i f not more, was j ust about that. 2t a Okay. I want to fast forward to September 9 of

22 20L9.

23 A Yep.

24 a Were you aware on that date that the Intelligence

25 Commjttee, the Committee on Oversight and Reform, and the 314

I Foreign Affairs Committee launched an investigation into Rudy

2 Giuliani's activities in Ukraine, the w'ithholding of or

Ja the freeze of military assistance to Ukraine? Were you aware

4 that that investigation had been launched?

5 A Yeah. There are two letters there were two

6 letters sent from the three committees to Secretary Pompeo,

7 one seeking this transcribed testimony and another one

8 seeking documents. You're now referring to those two?

9 a No. I'm referri ng to SePtember 9. l0 A Yeah. I don't remember that. ll a To the State DePartment. t2 MR. GQLDMAN: Yeah. There was a september 9th document

13 request to the State Department. That was the and as well

t4 as the White House.

l5 MR. V0LKER: Do you mind if I check the timeline that we

l6 h ave here to see what I was doing at that time?

t7 BY MR. NOBLE: l8 a Sure. Sure. t9 A No, I was not aware of that. I was hosting a

20 conference i n Tbilis'i for the McCai n Insti tute. 2l a Did there come a time when you learned about the

22 investigation?

23 A Just now.

24 a You weren't aware that Congress had launched an

25 i nvesti gati on on September 9 315

I A No.

2 a in the

J A No.

4 a So I can take it, you didn't have discussions about

5 that investigation

6 A No.

7 a wi th anyone at the State Department?

8 A No. Sor ry.

9 a 0kay. No. Just asking. Just checking. l0 Okay. ll MR. SWALWELL: But let me, Ambassador --

t2 MR. V0LKER: Yes . l3 MR. SWALWELL: you became aware, I'ffi sure, through

t4 publ i c report'ing i n early September that there was a l5 whistleblower compla'int and news outlets were reporting that l6 that complajnt related

t7 MR. V0LKER: Yes. l8 MR. SWALT^IELL: to Ukraine?

t9 1'4R. V0LKER: Yes.

20 MR. SWALWELL: You were aware? 2l MR. V0LKER: When the news media broke the story about

22 there bei ng a whi stleblower who was the i ni t'ia1 news

23 reports were that the Presjdent made an inappropriate promise

24 in a phone call with a foreign leader. And I remember

25 heari ng that. 316

I And then I bef ieve 'it was about 2 days later i t emerged

2 that it was about ukraine. And then, you know, the cycle

J just escalated from there, and I followed those media reports

4 and then I saw the transcript reteased and then I saw the

5 whistleblower rePort released.

6 MR. SWALWELL: Thanks.

7 BY MR. NOBLE: jump September L7' 8 a 0kay. So going to forward to and 9 We understand there was a call between Secretary Pompeo

l0 the Ukrainian foreign minister. Are you aware of that ca11, ll September L7?

t2 AThatringsabell.SeptemberLT.Wedon'thave

l3 any more information that rings a bel1. I believe that

l4 took pl ace. l5 a Okay. 5o did you help prepare the Secretary for l6 that call?

t7 A In the sense that I would meet with the secretary

l8 periodically to update him on what I was doing and things l9 with Ukraine. I think I had met with him on I had just

20 made a note as I was going through some of these messages 2l that are in here. I know that I met with him on August 19

22 a With SecretarY PomPeo, August L9?

23 A With Secretary Pompeo' Then we had the nati onal

24 day thi ngs, then we had Bolton's vi s'it, then we had Labor

25 Day, and then I was traveling. And so I did not speak to the 317

1 Secretary specif icatly before that phone call in a narrow

2 time wjndow, but I was pretty sure he was up to speed on

J things happening wi th Ukraine.

4 a Did you get a readout from that call?

5 A No, I didn't. I beli eve that i t was a fi rst phone

6 catl , you know, that i t's, I 'm the new forei gn mi ni ster.

7 I 've j ust been appoi nted. Happy to work wlth you. That i s

8 my understandi ng.

9 a Okay. And we understand that on September L8 Vice l0 Pres'ident Pence had a call with Presjdent Zelensky? Are you ll aware of that?

t2 A Say that again. September L8? l3 a September 18, the next day, a call between Vice t4 President Pence and President Zelensky? l5 A That I'm not sure I did know about. l6 a So you don't know anything about that particular t7 call?

l8 A Yeah. I 'm j ust tryi ng to thi nk. Yes . Wai t. Yes, l9 I do. Yes, I do. I take it back.

20 a This is teading up to UNGA. 2t A Yeah. This was a fol1owup. He had met wi th

22 Pres'ident Zelensky i n Warsaw. Remember, he had no

23 information to give about security assistance, and he was

24 going to advocate for a White House meeting. And I be1 i eve

25 that this phone call was the Vice President getting back to 318

ng I President Zelensky to follow up on those things' sayi ) securi ty assi stance i s movi ng, and we are movi ng ahead wi th a

J Whi te House v'isi t wi th a b'itateral meeti ng' Why do you bel i eve 4 a And you said you believe that'

5 that? had 6 A I'm j ust trYi ng to remember conversations I

7 with Bitl TaYlor who totd me about i t. SePtember L8 8 a OkaY. Bi 11 TaYlor totd you about the

9 call? l0 A Yes. ll a So then I want to jump to the meetings on the t2 sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly l3 A Yes.

t4 abetweenPres.identTrumpandPresidentZelensky l5 on September 25. You attended UNGA, didn't you? l6 A I did. t7 a Did you help prepare for that meeting? l8 A Yes.

19 a Between the Presidents?

20 AldldnotpreparethePresidentsspecifically.I 2l did have these conversations with secretary Pompeo in advance

22 of the UNGA meetings. Pompeo about 23 a what did you djscuss with secretary

24 the meeti ng?

25 A Well, that it's great that we can schedule it, 319

I important to get the two leaders together. By this time it

2 was all well in the public domain about Rudy Giuliani, about

Ja text messages, about, you know, investigations and so forth.

4 And, you know, I had several things that one of them

5 i s, Ukrai ni ans, i f you' re goi ng to release the transcri pt of

6 the call , the Ukra'in'ians want to see i t f i rst. They would

7 also like to have the meeting first and talk before releasing

8 a transcri pt. That di d not happen.

9 a Who made that request to you from the Ukrainian l0 side? ll A Yermak, Andriy Yermak. t2 a And do you know why he wanted to see the transcript l3 first or have the meeting about it? t4 A So they could prepare their own messaging and l5 prepare the President. And also there's in their minds l6 this is also a 1itt1e bjt of respect, that if you know, t7 they fi rst off, don't want a transcri pt i nvolvi ng thei r l8 leader to be reteased, but if it's going to be released, at t9 least do the courtesy of sharing it and talking about it

20 first so that it can be seen to be something that they agreed 2t on rather than just letting it go.

22 a And to your knowledge, d'id the Whi te House or anyone else consult wjth the Ukrainians as they requested

24 about the release of the transcript?

25 A I believe that Secretary Pompeo spoke with 320

no 1 President Zelensky and informed him that we felt we had

2 choice but to release the transcript. but 3 a Did Secretary Pompeo say why he had no choice

4 to release the transcriPt? you 5 A I think jt was just the public buildup of,

6 know, expectation from the whistleblower report or from the

7 knowledge of the whjstleblower report -- it wasn't released

8 yet but from the knowledge of the whistleblower report,

9 we've got to release thi s phone call transcri pt. l0 a And after the transcri pt was publ i cly released, di d

1l you have conversations with any Ukrajnian officjats about its

t2 contents? mean, 13 A I'm sure I did, but nothing rea1ly to say' I

t4 the transcri pt was what 'it was. We d'idn't really go ovelit. l5 It was something that then was being managed at pretty high

l6 level s . l7 a What do You mean bY that? l8 A We11, I'lr not having read the transcript, it's a l9 1ot of information that I wasn't aware of. And the public

20 commentary about this was coming from the President, so I'm 2l not real1y engagi ng i n tryi ng to di scuss i t.

22 a 0kay. Did the Ukrainians express any concerns to

23 you about the contents of the call?

24 A They didn't express concern about the content.

25 They did express concern about the fact of its retease. 321

I a And what was thei r concern about the fact of the

2 release?

J A That it had not been well coordinated with them.

4 They felt that they were being a little bit that their

5 i nterests were bei ng di sregarded or subordi nated to U. S.

6 domesti c pol i ti cal acti vi ty.

7 a In advance of President Trump and President

8 Zelensky's press conference at UNGA, do you know whether

9 President Zelensky or any of his advisers spoke to any of l0 the to the President or to any of his advisers? ll A In advance of that? t2 a Yeah. l3 A I spoke with Andriy Yermak in advance, and we were t4 talki ng more about -- one of them he was ralsi ng a concern l5 about the release of the transcript. I sajd I would see what t6 I could do, and I conveyed that message to Secretary Pompeo

t7 and through an intermediary, through the executive secretary. l8 And then we talked about what some of the substance and

t9 f ollowup of the meeti ng could be, how do we bui ld on th1s,

20 and that was the conversation I had with Andriy the night

2t before.

22 a At any point during UNGA or leading up to UNGA, was

23 the subject of the investigations that President Trump and

24 Rudy Giuliani had been pressing the Ukrainians to commence

25 rai sed, the j ssue of the j nvesti gati ons? 322

I A No, not with me and not in any of my conversations.

2 a Do you know whether there was any discussion ) between the Ukrai ni ans and U. S. offi ci a1s about the securi ty

4 aid during UNGA? 'i and 5 A No, because by that poi nt t had been 1i f ted,

6 So it was aIl moving, and i think there was a Satisfaction

7 that that's behi nd us.

8 a Do you know why it was lifted, the freeze?

9 A I believe that the letter from the Senators, the l0 one that I shared with the defense minister in a text ll message, I bel i eve that had an i mpact on the Wh'i te House. t2 a Are you aware that the freeze was lifted after l3 Congress announced that it was investigating the freeze and

t4 the President's efforts to get Ukraine to investigate Joe

l5 B'iden? l6 A Yeah, I heard no, I wasn't aware of that. I

t7 heard something different. I heard that there was a threat l8 to withhold funding for other things from Congress if this l9 funding did not go forward. And that may have had an impact.

20 O But to be clear, you don't know the reason why the 2l fundi ng the freeze was actually 1i fted?

22 A No, I don't know why it was put in place and I

23 don't know why it was lifted. We can try to infer about just

24 the President's general attitude, but I believe the reaSon it

25 was lifted overall was just as I had anticipated from the 323

I beginning, everybody who knows Ukraine and knows the policy

2 thinks this js a good idea.

J There was also timelines involved, and the Pentagon was

4 very clealin communi cati ng wi th me, and I assume theref ore

5 also communicating with the White House, that they were going

6 to have to move some of this anyway because they were going

7 to comply with the law.

8 a Duri ng UNGA, was there any di scussi on between U. 5.

9 offi ci als and Ukrai ni an offi ci als about a vi si t to the l0 White House for President Zelensky? ll A Repeat that question again.

t2 a Duri ng UNGA

t3 A Duri ng UNGA. t4 a during that week or leading up to it, was there l5 any di scussi on of the vi s'it? t6 A Yes. Yes, i t's on camera. Pres'ident Zelensky and t7 President Trump did about the first 30 minutes of their l8 bilateral meeting on camera in order to show that they're t9 si tting there and working together and answering questions.

20 And President Zelensky made a joke about it. It didn't 2t come across in English as funny as it probably seemed to him

22 in Ukrainian, but I could te11 that it was him

23 a What was the joke?

24 A We11, it was that thank you for invjting me to

25 the White House. I'm rea1ly looking forward to coming, but I 324

I think you forgot to tel1 me the date.

2 a So this date, has the White House visit for

J President Zelensky been scheduled, to your knowledge?

4 A To my knowledge we1l, I shouldn't answer it that

5 way, because I'm now out of the information loop, so I don't

6 know whether one has been scheduled. As of when I resigned,

7 i t had not been scheduled.

8 MR. SWALWELL: You included Dan Hoffman in your

9 production, and I want to know whY?

l0 t4R. VOLKER: Yeah. Yeah. Dan Hoffman is a former cIA ll station chief in a couple of different places. The

t2 Ukrainjans were in the midst of reforming their security l3 structures, and they were concerned about perSonnel, and they

t4 were concerned about getting the structure right.

l5 So I know Dan Hoffman, and so I offered to both l6 DanyIyuk, as the head of the National Security Defense

t7 Counci 1, and also Yermak, h€'s goi ng to Ukrai ne. If you l8 would like to meet with him, I'11 put you jn touch.

t9 MR. SWALWELL: Do You know if theY met?

20 MR. VoLKER: I don't know actua11y. I never heard back. 2l I know they got jn contact or both of them said they wanted

22 to meet, but then I don't know what the followup was. t"lR. SwALWELL: And Mr. Hoffman is a private citizen who

24 sits on the President's Intelligence Advisory Board today.

25 Is that ri ght? 325

I MR. V0LKER: Yes, that's correct.

2 MR. SWALWELL: Was he involved at all in this discussion

a J wi th the Ukrai ni ans around Mr. Gi u1 i ani ?

4 MR. VOLKER: I have no reason to think that he would

5 have been involved in that at all.

6 MR. SWALWELL: These text messages, are they your

7 personal phone or are they

8 MR. V0LKER: Yes .

9 MR. SWALWELL: government phone?

l0 MR. V0LKER: Yes . ll MR. SWALWELL: Your personal phone?

t2 MR. VOLKER: Yes. l3 MR. SWALWELL: Were you provided with a government

t4 phone ? l5 MR. V0LKER: I was provjded with a government phone. t6 MR. SWALWELL: Are there text messages on your

t7 government phone as well? l8 MR. VOLKER: I don't believe so. I couldn't figure out t9 how to do that. The password on the government phone always

20 seemed to drop, and I couldn't get into it. 2t MR. SWALWELL: Why WhatsApp?

22 MR. VOLKER: WhatsApp is what the Ukrainians prefer to

23 use, less abifity to be fistened into by foreign intelligence

24 than WhatsApp.

25 MR. SWALWELL: I think there may be a few more questions 326

I about the phone. I just want to ask, you know, going through

2 your biography and your service to our country and the fact

3 that you stepped up here to serve for free, as you said,

4 sacrifice to your family, sacrifice to the lulcCain Institute, good 5 and you had, I think as Mr. Goldman said, very

6 intentions as far as executing U.5. policy.

7 Now that you have the benefit of hindsight and you're by 8 able to look at the other track that was being run

i , 9 l'4r . Gi ul i ani and even the Presi dent i nvolvi ng l"lr . Gi ul ani

l0 how does it make you feel that you were doing all of this the 11 work and you were not read into thjs other track, which

l2 Ukrai ni ans certa'in1y knew was goi ng on?

13

t4

l5

l6

t7

l8 l9

20

2l

22

23

24

25 327

I [6:11 p.m.]

2 I'1R. VOLKER: How did it make me feel?

J l'lR. SWALWELL: I mean, isn't it embarrassing as a

4 diplomat? That you are the diplomat. You have the

5 experience, you're charged with doing this. Mr. Giuliani is

6 not a diplomat. He's not a U.S. Government employee. He

7 doesn't have a securi ty clearance. And he's not shari ng wi th

8 you and the President is not sharing with you this other

9 track. l0 MR. VOLKER: Yeah. What I would say is it makes me feel ll that it's very, very unfortunate, because we had done such t2 good work on policy with Ukra'ine, pushing back Russia, l3 supporting them, democrat'ic transition. Things are going l4 great. And this separate track, as you refer to it, ends up l5 overshadowing the work that we've done and the need to l6 continue that work going forward.

t7 MR. SWALWELL: Thank you. Mr. Goldman.

l8 BY MR. GOLDI4AN: t9 a Ambassador Volker, on that topic, you mentioned

20 earlier that the first 5 months of President Zelensky's 2l Presidency were very important. What did you mean by that? 'in 22 A I meant that they won an absotute ma j ori ty

23 parliament, 254 out of 450 seats. 5o they would be able to

24 pass legislation on day one. But that majority is going to

25 erode. He's going to have defectors from his party who are 328

I either bought off by corruption or support'ing Kolomoisky or

2 unwilling to stick with the legislation. And he also has

3 this dynamic of Mr. Kolomoisky showing up and being quite

4 vi si ble i n Ukrai ne.

5 And he's got a limited window in which to seize the

6 reins of power, get real legislation passed, and push through

7 a fundamental reform of all the different systems in the

8 country and to fight corruptjon. And if he doesn't get that

9 through in the first 3 to 6 months, he will probably lose his

10 pa r1 i amentary maj or i ty and probably be unable to accompl i sh ll much after that. So there's a critical window here for him t2 to be successful. l3 a And how important is his success tied to the United t4 States' poli ti ca1 or di plomati c support?

l5 A I believe it's very important that he has that. t6 a Why is that? t7 A It is seen by others in Ukraine as validating and l8 will convince them to stjck with him if he has U.S. support. t9 a And what is the significance to President

20 Zelensky's reputation and performance in Ukra'ine of a Wh'i te

2t House vi si t?

22 A I t enhances h'i s stature, that he i s accepted ' that

23 he is seen at the highest leve1. The imagery you get from j 'in 24 bei ng at the Whi te House i s the best n the wor1d, terms

25 of how it enhances someone's image. 329

I a And you've also test'ified today about the military

2 and security assistance that the Unjted States provides to

J Ukrai ne?

4 A Ri ght.

5 a How important is that to Ukraine?

6 A It's also criticalty important. It's essential

7 that we continue to provide it for a variety of reasons, for

8 the substantive reason of reforming and improving their

9 defense capabilities, deterring further Russ'ian aggression, a l0 symbol of U.S. support, and strengthening a negotiating ll position to cause Russia to eventually want to settle the

t2 war. l3 a So the success of President Zelensky with'in his t4 first 3 to 5 months, how much do you think that that depends

l5 on the pol i ti ca1 , di plomati c, and mi 1 i tary assi stance that l6 the United States provides? t7 A I thi nk that i t how do you want to say th'is? I t l8 'is critically important that we do everything we can as l9 quickly as we can. That was my operating assumption, that

20 this is now the moment. 2t a A couple rounds ago, you answered some questions

22 about this Burisma investigation. I just wanted to ci rcle back to jt for one second, because I think you testified that

24 it was important to fjnd out what the facts might be about

25 Burisma. Were you referring to the allegations of a few 330

I years ago I believe that you described about Burisma'S money

2 laundering or Some other corrupt or criminal conduct by the

J company i tself?

4 A I was referring to that and anything else that

5 might have jnvolved corrupt activity from the company.

6 a And I believe you said that you testified

7 earlier that there's no doubt in your mind that Vice

8 President Biden was acting completely on the I'm 'in 9 paraphrasi ng, but on the up and uP, terms of hi s

l0 recommendation to get rid of Prosecutor General Shokin. Is ll that ri ght? l2 A Correct. He was executing U.S. policy at the time l3 and what was widely understood internationally to be the

t4 right policy, right. l5 a And so the allegations that there may have been l6 some improper conduct by Vice President Biden at the time

t7 have been debunked, correct, and there is actually no

l8 evidence that that is the caSe. Is that your understanding? l9 A I'm not sure I fol1ow the quest'ion. I'm sorry, I

20 don't mean to be 2t a No, I just mean you're familiar I think with what

22 you said in your meeting that you had with Mr. G'iuliani about

23 how he was explaining to you what Biden, V'ice President

24 Biden's role was and Prosecutor General Shokin. You're not

25 aware of any evidence that Vice President Biden did anything 331

I improper in h'is

2 A Correct.

J O relations with Ukraine; correct?

4 A Yes, that's ri ght.

5 a So when Rudy G'iuli ani , or now, you have the benef i t

6 of the call record where President Trump talks about Burjsma

7 or Biden, you understand that or talks about Burisma,

8 rather, let's j ust Rudy Gi uf i ani talks about Buri sma. You

9 understand he doesn't actually care whether the Ukrainian l0 Government investigates a Ukrainian company for corruption,

ll co r rec t? t2 A What Rudy sa'id to me once was , al l I want i s f or l3 Ukraine to apply its own 1aws, and investigate and apply its

14 own 1aws, no political interference in investigation. l5 a So is it your testimony that you understood that

l6 Rudy Gi u1 i ani 's desi re for the Ukrai ni an Government to

t7 investigate Burisma had to do with potential money laundering l8 or other criminal conduct by the company itself, and not in t9 connection to either Joe or Hunter Biden?

20 A No. I believe that Giuliani was'interested'in 2l Biden, Vice President Biden's son Biden, and I had pushed

22 back on that, and I was maintaining that distinction.

23 a So you were majntaining that distinction, because

24 you understood that that whole theory had been debunked and

25 there was no evidence to support it, right? 332

I A Yes. That i t was not

2 a So i f that i s the case, yes, that i s the case, then

J if he insjsts on Ukraine opening an investigation, why is

4 that not manufacturing an investigation when there is no

5 evi dence there?

6 A We11, I'm not sure that anything ever had been

7 investigated. We did have allegat'ions made by the Prosecutor

8 General in Ukraine, wh'ich he later retracted, Lutsenko.

9 a 0kay. 5o he made them and retracted them? l0 A So what I think would have been very useful would ll be for Ukraine to clarify what's all this about, i.e.

t2 noth'ing. Lutsenko said this, he retracted it. There's

l3 nothi ng there. t4 a But that's not an i nvesti gati on, ri ght? t5 A Wel1, in order to say that, you would presumably l6 want to i nvesti gate. t7 a Okay. But you'd want to investigate something that l8 they had already established there was no evidence to

l9 i nvesti gate?

20 A Ri ght. If there's no evi dence, then that's what

21 you can say.

22 MR. G0LDMAN: Yeah, l'4r . Noble.

23 BY MR. NOBLE:

24 a Just some qu'ick questions to kind of test your

25 scope of knowledge. Not test. I'm not trying to test you. 333

I Are you aware of a Skype conversation between

2 A I was always did best in geography when it came to

J Tri vi a1 Pursuit.

4 a In spelling Ukrainian.

5 Are you aware of a Skype conversation between Rudy

6 Giuliani and former Prosecutor General Victor Shokin in late

7 2018?

8 A No.

9 a Are you aware of a meeting in late January 20L9 l0 between Rudy Gjuliani and then-Prosecutor General, January ll 2019, Yuriy Lutsenko in New York? t2 A I've heard that meeting took p1ace. l3 a Do you have any personal knowledge of that meeting? t4 A I have no personal knowledge of the meeting. I l5 just heard that it took p1ace. l6 a How about a meeting between Giulianj and Lutsenko t7 on the sidefines of the Middte East Conference in Warsaw,

18 Poland, in February 20L9? l9 A I have not heard about that.

20 a Were you aware then in l4arch 2019, the month after 2t he met with Giuliani, Lutsenko announced that he was

22 reopening the investigations into Burisma and Manafort? A I think I knew that. I don't know if he did that

24 or not, but I think I heard that he had said that.

25 a How did you hear that? 334

I A J ust press.

2 a You djdn't have any conversatjon with Lutsenko

J about that?

4 A No, no, no.

5 a Did you have any conversations with Ukrainian

6 officials about the reopening of those investigations?

7 A No, no.

8 O And then he later closed those investigations in, I

9 bel i eve, May of 20L9. I s that cor rect? l0 A I thi nk that's ri ght. ll a In April of 2019, before the final round of the t2 Ukrainian Presidential election, we understand that Ukrain'ian l3 Interior Minister Arsen Avakov traveled to Washington, D.C.

t4 Are you aware of that visit? l5 A Yes, yes. l6 O What do you know about that visit? t7 A I bel i eve I saw hi m on that vi s'i t, and he was

l8 distancing himself from Poroshenko and wanted to have a

t9 separate set of relationships jn Washington different from

20 Poroshenko, probably wi th a v'iew of wi shi ng that he would be 2l kept in office as well.

22 a Simi 1ar to Lutsenko?

23 A Simi 1ar to Lutsenko.

24 O Do you know who Interior Minister Avakov met with

25 in Washington, D.C.? 335

I A No, I don't. No.

2 a Followi ng that vi si t, he essenti a1ly swi tched hi s

J a11egj ance to Zelensky, correct?

4 A Yes, yes.

5 a Is he sti 11 the Interi or Mi ni ster?

6 A I believe he is.

7 a Have you ever had any conversations with him,

8 Avakov?

9 A Once. I n that vi si t that he made to Washington, we t0 had a bri ef meeti ng And the focus that I had in

ll communi cati ng wi th him was free and fai r electi ons. Make t2 sure that these elections are c1ean, free, fai r, secure. l3 Ukraine has had bad examples of this i n the past. And he's t4 in Charge of the police.

l5 a Are you aware of any meetings or communicatjons

l6 be tween Rudy Giuliani and Avakov?

t7 A No.

l8 a Are you aware of any meetings or communications

l9 be tween any Member of Congress and Interior Minister Avakov?

20 A No.

2t a Are you fami 1 i ar wi th the whi stleblower complai nt,

22 the IC whi stleblower complai nt?

23 A Yes.

24 a After i t was made publ i c , d'id you have any

25 conversations wi th anyone at the State Department about the 336

1 allegations in the whistleblower's complaint?

2 A I 'm tryi ng to thi nk. The allegati ons bei ng about

J the Bjden phone call?

4 a Yes.

5 A Yes.

6 a Among other things.

7 A Yeah. I 'm tryi ng to thi nk. The only the answer

8 I believe is no. It came out I didn't have any

9 conversation before it was released. It came out I believe

l0 on the 25th of September. Is that correct? ll a That i s cor rect. t2 A And then I resigned on the 27tn. So no. l3 O Did you speak to Secretary Pompeo during that t4 meeti ng we talked about earl i er regardi ng your resi gnati on

l5 about the whistleblower's allegat'ion? l6 A No. No, I -- it was a lO-minute call and it was

t7 about my decision to steP down. l8 a Did you ever speak to any U.S. Government officials t9 about the allegations in the whistleblower complaint, anyone

20 at the Whi te House? 2t A No, no.

22 MR. CASTOR: If I may, I think the 45-minute segment is

23 up.

24 MR. NOBLE: Sure.

25 MR. CASTOR: Do you need a -- 337

I MR. V0LKER: I'm okay for now, if we can

2 MR. SWALWELL: We're almost done.

Ja MR. MEAD0WS: God bless you.

4 MR. NOBLE: I 'm almost done wi th mi ne.

5 MR. CASTOR: I'm looking down at poor l\,lr. Meadows and he

6 looks a little bit sad down there.

7 MR. MEAD0WS: Mr. Ambassador, I want to come back to one

8 thing, only because I've been on Foreign Affairs for a long

9 time. And when we talk about foreign aid, and I think the l0 point was made that once it's appropriated, it's a done dea1. ll I happen to know better, and I think you probably know t2 better, having served in the State Department for a long l3 time.

t4 Forei gn ai d i s routi nely held up whi 1e they' re wai ti ng l5 for authorizing committees to be notified for weeks, months. l6 Does that happen on a regular basis? t7 MR. V0LKER: All the time. l8 MR. MEADOWS: A11 the time. So, to suggest that there l9 'is some nefarious purpose just because one foreign aid

20 allotment gets hetd up, you would have nefarious purposes 2l every single year through every approprjation process. Is

22 that correct?

23 MR. VOLKER: That is correct.

24 MR. MEAD0WS: Because I think it's real important that

25 we put this in the context of what it really is. 338

I MR. VOLKER: Yes.

2 MR. MEADOWS: It was a delay that you believed was

J ultimately going to get finished and corrected. You betieved

4 and communi cated that to the Ukrai ne offi ci als, not to worry,

5 that we are going to get this done. And, in fact, everyone

6 i n your ci rcle be1 i eved i t would be done, i ncludi ng

7 Mr. Taylor, once you had that conversation. Is that correct?

8 MR. V0LKER: Yes, yes. I believe I persuaded hjm don't

9 worry, this is not going to stand.

10 MR. MEADOWS: And then ultimately, did I hear you ll earlier say that he took a job, he was up for a job? Did I

t2 mi shear that? l3 MR. V0LKER: That conversation I believe relates to h'is t4 deci si on to accept bei ng appoi nted as Charge. l5 MR. MEAD0WS: Right. And so any concerns that he had, l6 obvi ously

t7 MR. VOLKER: They were a1layed, yeah.

l8 MR. MEADOWS: -- you persuaded him that, indeed, he t9 ought to go ahead and take the job, based on that you've

20 a11evi ated hi s concerns.

2t MR. V0LKER: Yes, and not just me, but also Secretary

22 Pompeo.

23 MR. MEADOWS: I want to clarify one other thing, because

24 as we've looked at this, one of the things that we continue

25 to look at i s thi s whole Buri sma-Biden. To your knowledge, 339

I there was never an investjgation of that. Is that correct?

2 MR. VOLKER: Yes. We just went through

J MR. MEAD0WS: But he was trying to say that this whole

4 thi ng has been debunked. It's impossi b1e to have anythi ng

5 debunked if you don't investigate.

6 MR. V0LKER: I don't believe any yes, thank you,

7 Congressman. That's exactly my understanding, is that it has

8 never been investigated. And you have these altegations and

9 then retraction of allegations, and it has never actually l0 been i nvesti gated.

ll MR. MEADOWS: I just think it's important that we look t2 at the clarification of these. And I do appreciate the fact

13 that you've been very strong in believing that Joe Biden t4 didn' t do anything'inappropriate. l5 MR. V0LKER: That is correct. l6 l"lR. MEADOWS: Do you think it might have been best, l7 knowing that his son was on there, to maybe have recused t8 himself from that decision?

t9 NR. V0LKER: Hindsight.

20 MR. MEAD0WS: In hindsight. 2t MR. V0LKER: I'm sure he got legal advice.

22 MR. MEAD0WS: Because, I mean, we're talking about recusals. There's a plethora of recommendations on recusals

24 around here.

25 MR. VOLKER: I don't want to answer what he should or 340

I shouldn't have done. I mean, that's not for me to decide.

2 MR. MEAD0WS: You ' re a career professi onal , and

J honestly, over eight hours now, I've been impressed. Not one

4 time have you equivocated or dodged the question. It's rare.

5 I thjnk even the majority would say it's rare. And so we

6 apprec i ate you r candor - -

7 MR. V0LKER: Thank you.

8 MR. MEADOWS: -- and your honesty in answering in at1

9 rega rds . l0 I'm disappointed, because I believe that America is ll being deprived of an unbelievable public servant with t2 knowledge of Ukraine and perhaps what is, maybe with the l3 exception of just the M'iddle East, one of the most difficult t4 places to actually navigate foreign policy. l5 I've been impressed not only with your spelling, but l6 with your knowledge here today. And I hope that you look at

t7 stayi ng i nvolved as a Ukrai ni an expert, because that's , l8 indeed, what you are. I've gotten to meet a whole lot of l9 experts in their fje1d, and yet, I'm very rarely impressed

20 and today I was impressed. So i just want to say thank you. 2l MR. V0LKER: Very kind of you, Congressman. Thank you.

22 MR. MEADOWS: I want to close by saying this: There's

23 going to be spin that comes out of this particular

24 transcri bed i nterv'iew. There's goi ng to be thi ngs that are

25 in the media that you supposedly said. They're going to 341

take, you know, a 1ittle sentence and suggest that it means

2 something other than the context of the 8 hours that we've

J had. I thi nk i t's cri t'ica11y important that the message to

4 the American people is very c1ear. And that message that I

5 heard you very loud and clear today is that there was no quid

6 pro quo at any time ever communicated to you. Is that

7 correct?

8 MR. VOLKER: Not to me, that is correct.

9 MR. MEADOWS: In your conversations wjth the Ukrainian l0 officials, was there ever a time where they communicated to ll you that they believed that there was a quid pro quo? t2 MR. VOLKER: No. We went over earlier th'is thing about l3 a statement and how that would be hetpful in getting a White

T4 House date, but I think that we eventually dropped that, kept

15 worki ng on the date and sayi ng we are sti 11 go'ing f orward. l6 MR. MEAD0WS: In fact, the readout, according to your l7 testimony, from Ukraine and the understanding from the State l8 Department, two groups that didn't talk to each other, were t9 very similar in that they felt Iike the call was a positive

20 call and a positive move going forward. Is that correct? 2l MR. V0LKER: That is correct.

22 MR. MEADOWS: And fi na1ly, j n all of thi s, I thi nk j t's

23 also important to the American people that they understand

24 one cri t j cal component of youlinvolvement i n alt of thi s.

25 You're a professional. If you were ever asked to do 342

I somethi ng that was wrong and not 'in the best i nterests of the

2 Unj ted States, would you do i t?

Ja

4

5

6

7

8

9

l0 ll

t2

l3

t4

l5

t6

t7

l8

t9

20

2t

22

23

24

25 343

I MR. VOLKER: 0f course not.

2 MR. MEAD0WS: Okay. Were you ever asked to do something

J that was wrong by this administration or anybody connected

4 wi th thi s admi ni strati on?

5 MR. V0LKER: No, I wasn't.

6 l"lR. MEAD0WS: Including the President of the United

7 States?

8 MR. VOLKER: Including by the President. I was never

9 asked to do anything that I thought was wrong. And I found l0 myself in a position where I was working to put together the l1 right policies for the adm'inistration and using all the t2 friends and network and contacts that you have, Pentagon, l3 State Department, NSC, to stitch that together, and I feel t4 that we were successful at doing that.

t5 MR. MEADOWS: Do you believe it 'is in the best interest l6 of the United States and Ukrajne to have a meeting in the l7 0va1 0f f i ce wi th the two leaders, and 'is that somethi ng that l8 l4embers of Congress should encourage, in spite of everything l9 that's gone on?

20 MR. V0LKER: Yes, I do. I do. l''lay I add to that,

2t Congressman?

22 MR. I"IEAD0WS: Yes , please.

23 MR. V0LKER: Because desp'ite everything that has led to

24 this testimony today, as impossible as it may be to do, if

25 you just put that out of your mind for a moment, we've had a 344

I lifting of this hold on security assistance that's going

2 forward. We had a very positjve meeting with the President

J and Zelensky in New York. We have a renewed commjtment to

4 there being such a White House visjt. And we have momentum

5 in putting a fittle bit more pressure on Russia in the Minsk

6 process.

7 Substantively, things are actually okay. They're pretty

8 good right now. This is about as good as you would want --

9 this is where you would want to be if we d'idn't have all this l0 other thi ng goi ng on 'in the background.

1l MR. ['4EAD0WS: WeIl , you have my word that I 'm goi ng to t2 encourage based on your expertise and your expertise l3 a1one, I'IIl goi ng to encourage that very meeti ng.

t4 MR. V0LKER: Thank You so much. l5 MR. CASTOR: I just have one followup. There was some

l6 Q&A about whether you would -- after the whistleblower

t7 complaint came to light whether, you know, you were talking l8 to Secretary Pompeo and some of the other folks about the

t9 contents of the comPlaint.

20 And there was a reference to the Biden phone call that,

2l you know, you I think acknowledged in answering one of the

22 questions from our Democratic counterparts the Biden phone

23 ca11, and that was I just want to clarify that to the

24 extent we' re refer ri ng to Presi dent Trump' s call wi th

25 Zelensky and that readout, that wasn't a Biden phone ca11. 345

I MR. VOLKER: 0h, I understand what you mean. Yes. What

2 I understood the question yeah, what I understood the

J question to be was President Trump's phone call with

4 President Zelensky in which Vice President Biden was

5 menti oned.

6 MR. CAST0R: 0kay, thanks.

7 MR. V0LKER: Thank you.

8 MR. SWALWELL: Ambassador, I think we've got about L0

9 more minutes. I just want to echo what l4r. Meadows said. l0 I'm sorry that you are leaving. You are a career ll professional and I want to thank you for that. t2 I do want to put jt in the context, though, that I l3 believe that your expertise should have been prioritized over l4 Mr. Giuliani's, and I think that is part of the problem here l5 and I wish that would have occurred. l6 I also don't want to be naive about the security l7 assistance that has gone through finally and the meeting that l8 may happen at the White House. It did take a whistteblower t9 complaint and an impeachment inquiry. I mean, that has to be

20 a part of the context, that only once those two happened did 2t the securi ty assi stance be released. Now, whether they' re

22 related or not we may never know, but, I mean, that's an

23 important contextual aspect of this.

24 And so I think it's probably 'inaccurate to give credit

25 to the administration that none of that was going on in the 346

I background. But, with that, I'm going to turn it over to

2 Mr. Goldman or Mr. Nob1e.

3 BY MR. NOBLE:

4 a So I said we weren't going to go back to texts, but

5 I have some more questjons on your texts. 0n page 44,

6 Septembe r 22nd, 201.9, secdnd I i ne down at 1'2:.04 p. m. Are you

7 there?

8 A Yes, I am.

9 a And Ambassador Sondland says: Yes, can you meet l0 wi th S thi s af ternoon? That' s w'i th Sec retary Pompeo? ll A Ri ght. t2 a And I believe you may have mentioned this meeting l3 before during your testimony, but can you provide the context

t4 for why he was asking you to meet with Secretary Pompeo? l5 A Yes. This was to have a meeting, which for me was l6 the phone call on the 22nd of September, to talk with

t7 Secretary Pompeo about Giuliani going very public wi th the l8 statements about our instructing him and that he was

t9 representing the State Department and so forth.

20 a Got i t. In response to Gi uli ani 's text to you, i s 2l that right, that we went through earlier?

22 A Yes, his two attempted phone calls, his texts to

23 me, my conversation with Ulrich Brechbuhl, which had gotten

24 to the Secretary. And so this was a followup to that for a

25 conversation with the SecretarY. 347

1 a Okay. And then after the conversatjon with

2 Secretary Pompeo, it looks like a few hours later, at 7;2L,

J you wrote back to Sondland: Spoke with Rudy per guidance

4 from Secretary.

5 A Yes.

6 a What guidance did Secretary Pompeo give you about

7 speaki ng wi th Rudy?

8 A He said to tel1 him that we had already said on

9 August 22nd, through the spokesperson of the State l0 Department, that I had connected Yermak to him at Yermak's ll request, and provi de him wi th that. And I di d that. t2 O And then you said: "He, " meaning Rudy? l3 A Yes. t4 a Said he will use the statement and talk with John l5 Solomon.

l6 A Ri ght. l7 a What did Rudy te1l you during that phone call? l8 A He said that that is helpful to have that statement t9 from August 22nd that confirms that I was the one who put

20 Yermak in touch with him, and he was going to then tel1 that 2l to John Solomon. That's what he said.

22 a And John Solomon is the reporter at The Hitl?

23 A He's a reporter at The Hi 11. 24 a 0r former reporter, right? He's no tonger wjth The

25 Hi t1? 348

A Is that right? ) MR. NEAD0WS: One more daY.

J MR. N0BLE: One more day?

4 BY I,IR. NOBLE:

5 a Why did Rudy want to talk to John Solomon about the

6 statement?

7 A I presume John Solomon was writing something, and

8 so he wanted to get this point into the article that Rudy was

9 not acting alone, but or that is not the right way to Say l0 j t. That Rudy was he did not 'ini ti ate the contact wi th ll the Ukrainians on his own, that I facilitated that for him. t2 a And then Rudy Giuliani also urged you to talk to l3 John Solomon?

t4 A He did. l5 a Did you sPeak with John Solomon? l6 A No, I didn't. t7 a Why didn't you talk to John Solomon? l8 A Because I didn't want to be engaging in this media

l9 cycle wi th Rudy Gi ul i ani .

20 a Why not? 2t That's all I have.

22 BY ]'4R. GOLDMAN:

23 a Alt right. I just have a few closing quest'ions,

24 Ambassador. Thank you for the long day and we do appreciate

25 you. Your stami na i s imPressive. 349

I I just want to clarify one line of questioning that

2 Mr. Meadows had. I think he was talking about the

3 Burisma/Biden investigation, and I just want to be sure.

4 Your understanding is that neither Hunter nor Joe Biden were

5 ever investigated in connection to Burisma, right?

6 A My understanding is that they never were.

7 a Okay. But Buri sma i tsel f was bei ng i nvesti gated?

8 A Buri sma had I beli eve there was an i nvesti gation

9 i nto Buri sma f or a number of thi ngs, and Shok'in, the l0 former-former Prosecut.or General, was not doing enough on ll that. I believe that the next prosecutor general, Lutsenko,

12 started and stopped. l3 a 0kay. You had mentioned earljer thjs morning, t4 actua1ly, that there was some contact or communication that l5 either you or your attorney had with the White House l6 Counsel's 0ffi ce. t7 A Yes. l8 a Is that within the last week? l9 A I had a phone conversati on w'i th the Whi te House

20 Counsel ' s Offi ce. I don' t remember the exact date. I t was 2l after the telephone transcript came out and the whistleblower

22 report came out. And it was a fact-finding call from them.

23 Who am I, what did I say, what did I do, what -- you know,

24 what is there's a reference to me in the whistleblower

25 report. What does that mean? So just trying to give them as 350

I much background as possible.

2 a 5o the whistleblower complaint came out the morning

a J of last Thursday, the 26th of September, and you resigned the

4 evening of the following day. So was your

5 A it was before that. It was before it came out

6 pubt i c1y then.

7 a Do you recal1 when that was, when the conversation

8 was?

9 A I don't remember the exact day. It would have

r0 been it fel1 kjnd of jammed together. I was in New York ll for the UNGA. It was before the bilat meeting. There was an

12 issue about the train. So 0o, it may have been Thursday, l3 that Thursday, the same day 'it came out, the 25th, once I got

t4 back to D. C. l5 a And who did you sPeak with? t6 A I don't remember the names. The two people from

t7 the Whi te Hou s e Counsel's 0ffi ce.

l8 a And just you, the three of you?

t9 A Yes, yes

20 a And what were they asking you about?

2l A Just the facts. Just what is thi s you know,

22 when jt says you, you know, were in con tac t wi th Rudy

23 Gi u1 i ani , what happened? VerY much what I testi fi ed tod ay .

24 Just getting the bas'ic facts so that they were aware of

25 what's out there. 351

I a We've asked you some anything else? Djd they ) make any recommendations or suggestions to you?

J A No. That's what I was going to say. They did not

4 ask me to do anything. They did not have any guidance. They

5 were 1i teratty in fact-finding mode.

6 a And other than the one call that your attorney had

7 with the acting legal advjser at the State Department, have

8 you had any additional conversations since you resigned

9 A Yes. l0 a with any legal counsel for the administration, ll White House, or State Department? t2 A With the State Department legal adviser. I befieve

l3 I spoke wi th hi m on the weekend, and I spoke wl th hi m on

t4 0ctober 2nd. No. Today 'i s the 3 rd . 0ctober 1st. l5 a And what was the nature of those conversations? l6 A I wanted to find out two ways. He ca1led me. l7 He wanted to know what my intentions were about testifying. l8 I told him that I intend to testify. He wanted to make sure l9 that I had seen the Secretary's letter, which I told him that

20 I had, giving reasons why this was an unreasonable request, 2t as the Secretary saw it.

22 He wanted to make sure that I was making sure the State

23 Department had access to all the things that are here in

24 this the text messages and things that you have access to,

25 which they do. 352

I And he wanted to also make sure that if I had any other

2 records and emailS or other things that I was I would go

J back and double-check that they were copied to my State

4 Department emai I address.

5 That was the rule that I tried to fol10w and that was

6 approved i s I can send th'ings f rom my personal emai 1, but I

7 must copy my State Department email address. And I tried to

8 fol1ow that retigiously, but there may have been examples

9 where I failed to, and to make sure that I went ahead and did l0 that. ll a We've talked a little bit a lot about Rudy t2 Giuliani and his interplay with the State Department today, l3 but I j ust want to ask you generally, did anyone el se at the l4 State Department ever rai se any concernS to you about Rudy

l5 Gi u1i an'i ' s role i n the Ukrai ni an si tuati on? l6 A Yes.

t7 a Who?

18 A Bill Taylor that we've talked about and the Acting

19 Assi stant Secretary, Phi 1 Reeker. Both were j ust very

20 uncomfortable with him being active. As I said in my opening

2t testimony, my view is if it's a fact, we've got to deal with

22 'i t. You know, it's a problem. Yes, it is, but we've got to

23 deal with it and see if we can fix it.

24 a You said it's a problem. What was problematjc?

25 A The problem, as I said, was that he was amplifying 353

I a negative narrative about Ukraine that was impeding our

2 ability to advance the bilateral relationship the way we

J wanted.

4 a And then, fina1ly, the one question that we haven't

5 asked you, whjch I think is worth getting your input on:

6 When you first read the call record from the July 25th ca11,

7 what was your reaction?

8 A I was surprised. I had not heard anything about

9 Biden, Hunter Biden or Joe Biden in this entire time. And I l0 had been very active, as you see. I've been very active in ll communicatjng with people, in trying to solve some of these

t2 problems, i n tryi ng to get the Whi te House v'isi ts together, l3 phone ca1ls. And for that to have taken place and my not to t4 know that was qu'ite a surprise. l5 a In addition to being surprised, were you troubled l6 at all by what you read? t7 A Yes. This I believe was your quest'ion earlier. It l8 creates a problem aga'in where all of the thi ngs that we' re t9 tryi ng to do to advance the bj lateral relati onshi p,

20 strengthen our support for Ukrajne, strengthen the

2l posi tioni ng agai nst Russi a i s now getti ng sucked j nto a

22 domesti c poli ti ca1 debate i n the U. S. , domesti c po1 i ti cat

23 narrative that overshadows that. And I think that is

24 extremely unfortunate for our policy w'ith Ukraine.

25 a And did you understand that at least some of the 354

djscuss'ion in that call was the President asking for Ukraine

2 to do something that would have an impact on the domestic

J political situation here jn the U.S. as well?

4 A Wel1, referring asking the President of Ukraine jnto 5 to work together with the Attorney General and to look

6 this, you can see, as it has now happened, th'is becomes

7 explosive in our domestic politics.

8 a Well, I think you all right. You've said it

9 earl i er. I 'm not goi ng to belabor the poi nt.

10 MR. GOLDMAN: Did you want to say something before I ll finish?

t2 MR. SWALWELL: Ms. Speier from california has joined us.

13 MS. SPEIER: Thank you. I apologize for not being here l4 to hear all of your testimony, Ambassador. l5 I have an abiding question about the special prosecutor, l6 Lutsenko. Do you think that he is a good prosecutor?

t7 MR. VOLKER: I believe you're referring to the

l8 prosecutor general of Ukraine, Yuriy Lutsenko, who is no

t9 longer in office.

'i 20 MS . SPE I ER: That s cor rect. 2l MR. VOLKER: And I believe that he was not credible and

22 that he was making things uP, frankly, to create a

23 self-serving narrative to make himself look valuable to the

24 United States, in the hopes that we would urge the new

25 Presi dent not to remove hi m f rom h'i s j ob. 355

I MS. SPEIER: And there was at one point I believe in the

2 conversation between the President and President Trump in

J which he was encouraging that Mr. Lutsenko be retained. Is

4 that not correct?

5 MR. V0LKER: Yes. The phone call here, I think they're

6 talking past each other a litt1e bit on that point. 0n page

7 3 of the telephone transcript at the bottom, President Trump

8 says: I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he

9 was shut down, and that's real1y unfair.

r0 I think President Trump here is referring to the former ll Prosecutor General Shokin. And he says: A lot of people are t2 talking about that, the way they shut your very good l3 prosecutor down and had some very bad people involved. t4 This is the one that Vice President Biden was involved l5 in helping to remove from office, because he was widely l6 percei ved as not fi ghti ng corrupti on. t7 Later -- l8 MS. SPEIER: Presjdent Zelensky wasn't jn power at the l9 time, and it was --

20 MR. V0LKER: When Shokin was prosecutor general, that is 2l correct. President Poroshenko.

22 MS. SPEIER: But he did have Lutsenko removed, correct?

23 MR. VOLKER: Do you mind, ma'am, if I can do

24 this sequentially, because I think it will answer your

25 question? 356

I MS . SPEI ER: 0f course.

2 MR. V0LKER: So the President was referring to Shokin

J and his removal. President Zelensky comes back'in the

4 conversation and says: I wanted to tel1 you about the

5 prosecutor. First of all, I understand and I am

6 knowledgeable about the s'i tuati on. S'ince we've won the

7 absolute majori ty i n our parli ament, the next Prosecutor

8 General will be 1.00 percent my person, my candidate, will be

9 approved by the parfiament and w'i11 start as new prosecutor l0 i n September.

11 So I believe he understood President Trump to be talking

t2 about not Shokin but about Prosecutor General Lutsenko

13 MS. SPEIER: Right.

t4 MR. VOLKER: who at thi s time was st'i11 the

l5 Prosecutor General.

l6 MS. SPEIER: COrrCCt.

t7 f,4R. V0LKER: President Zelensky did not trust Prosecutor

l8 General Lutsenko at all. He thought that he was there for

t9 his own interests and to protect Poroshenko's jnterests and

20 was determ'ined to remove him from office.

2t MS. SPEIER: But you' re i nterpreti ng Presi dent Trump's

22 comments differently than I did. I thought he was being

23 supportive of t'lr. Lutsenko, and wasn't it Mr. Lutsenko who

24 put the op-ed'in The Hill about the three principles that he

25 thought needed to be reviewed, which included precisely what 357

Rudy Gjuliani has been promoting?

2 MR. V0LKER: Yeah. So I'm not familiar with the op-ed

J in The Hi11. I read the President's comments here as not

4 talk'ing about Lutsenko but talk'ing about Shok j n. And,

5 therefore, he's not trying to defend Lutsenko. And Zelensky

6 is not understanding that and talking about he's going to get

7 hi s own prosecutor general 'in place and then we wi 11 have a

8 ret i able prosecutor general .

9 M5. SPEIER: A11 ri ght. And then recently, Mr. Lutsenko

10 was interviewed by one of the cable TV channels and said that

ll he had i nvesti gated Mr . Bi den and Hunter Bi den and d'id not t2 fi nd anythi ng. Is there any credi bi 1i ty to that?

13 MR. V0LKER: That doesn't sound f ike what I saw. So l4 maybe he gave a d'if f erent i nterv'iew. I saw an i ntervi ew on l5 Face the Nat'ion on Sunday, and in that interview he said that l6 he did not investigate the Bjdens, that he would only

t7 i nvesti gate Ukrai ni an cj ti zens. I don't know what he may l8 have said at another interview.

l9 MS. SPEIER: Yeah. Thi s was a CNN i ntervi ew.

20 MR. VoLKER: I did not see that. 2t f"lS. SPEIER: All ri ght. Thank you.

22 I yield back.

23 MR. SWALWELL: Just to clarify, does President Zelensky

24 speak Engl i sh?

25 MR. V0LKER: Yes, he does. 358

1 MR. SWALWELL: Okay, that's all we have. Ambassador'

2 thank you. Thank you to counsel. Yes.

3 MS. DAUM: As I think you can all appreciate, the

4 Ambassador has been very open. He'S been cooperative with

5 answeri ng at1 of your quest'ions today and i n provi di ng

6 information, documents to the committees today.

7 I think you can also understand that some of this

8 information is very sensitive from a diplomatic standpoint,

9 parti cularly h'i s conversati ons wi th other di plomats, forei gn l0 diplomats as wel1. This informatjon has been provided to you ll wi th the understandi ng that 'i t's not classj fi ed and that thi s

t2 jntervjew transcript and the documents associated with it l3 will not be made public except in accordance with the rules l4 of the committee. l5 I'd also like to add that, as you can see in the letter l6 from the State Department to me that is now part of the

t7 record, the State Department has concerns about the

l8 privileges and the classification tevel of these materials

t9 and has stated that i t would need to conduct a legat and

20 classification review prior to the release of any of these

2t materials publicly.

22 I understand that the depos'ition rules of the committee

23 require Ambassador Volker to have an opportunity to revjew

24 the transcript before its release. WjII we be afforded that

25 privi tege? 359 360