MS-763: Rabbi Herbert A. Friedman Collection, 1930-2004. Series I: Wexner Heritage Foundation, 1947-2004. Subseries 1: General Files, 1949-2004.
Box Folder 62 13
Denver Beit Din. Background stories [Denver, Colo.]. 1983-1989.
For more information on this collection, please see the finding aid on the American Jewish Archives website.
3101 Clifton Ave, Cincinnati, Ohio 45220 513.487.3000 AmericanJewishArchives.org SPECIAL SECTION Conversioa & Patrilineality · ·. DECEMBER 2, ~98 3 Denver's iiitetnationally unique jo~nt conve~sio.n -'tl~agtam breaks down Thjs special section of the lnl'ttllloanlaia edited only for gross grammaticaJ infelicities. sidered to be Jewish by the Reform rab Jewish News examines why Denver's inter with Denver's rabbis. repetitions, digl'C$Slons, and certain com binical body, ir the child is raised Jewishly. The ground rules of the interviews stipu nationaJJy unique joint conversfon program mo!Hy agreed upon facts, which constitute This breaks with the long-standing defini lated that no type of rabbi would be asked broke down. part of lhe summary below summary of ("A lo OOIJlJJ'lmt on any statement made by ~ For six years until this past summer, the IJN interviews"). • tion or a Jew as a person born of a Jtwish morher ("matrilineaJ descent"), whether or type of rabbi in his respective interview with Denver was the only city in the world in These transcripts, ~ides · illuminating the which Traditional, Conservative, and Re not the child is actively raised as a Jew. the UN. Traditional, Reform, Conservative, operation and the brcaJcdown of the joint Orthod.ox, and Reconstnictionist rabbis were form rabbis openly and ofOciaJJy cooperated conversion program, provide a rare glimpse The debate over matrilineal and par.rilincal asked IQ comment on issues they perceived on the conversion of non-Jews to Judaism. into the thinking, the motivations, and the descent in Judaism is a major bone of con as Under this arrangement, each rabbi recog style of Denver•s 'rabbinical oommunity a.s tention among rabbis tooay. Shortly after the them, and on any substantive conflicts - if nized the validity of the conversion per a whole. · Reform rabbinical body passed its patrilincal any - with other groups of rabbis, but not formed de jure by all of the rabbis collec In addition to the transcripts, this special resolution, an Orthodox rabbinical body, on statements made lo the JJN by the other tively and de facto by any single rabbi section presents certain ~ey documents writ the Rabbinical Council of America. "deplored groups of rabbis. preponderantly. ten by Denver rabbis to their colleagues at and denounced'' the resolution. For technical reasons various UN staff The program broke down with rabbis in the time of the breakdown, last summer (see This debate is uniquely poignant in Denver members participated in interviews with open disagreement with each other. Most pp. 11-12). because it was only in this city that rabbis various groups of rabbis. The interviewers congregational rabbis in Denver devoted one One main reason for the demise of the or different philosophical and theological included Miriam Goldberg, IJN Editor and of their High Holy Day sermons to the topic. conversion program was the passage lasl persuasions ac1ually cooperated openly and fublisher; Doris Sky, UN Managing Editor; In this special section, the transcripts of· spring by the Reform 1abbinical body, the officially in a joint conversion program - Rabbi Hillel Goldberg, IJN Senior Editor; interviews with the congregational rabbis in CentraJ Conference of Ameri6m Rabbis, of a program touching the heart of the issue of Larry Han.kin, lJ N Assist.ant-to·the-Pub· metro Denver - including both those who a resolution declaring that Jewishness is Jewish ge~cology. as does the patritineal lisher, and, in one intcrview, Chris Lcppek. panicipated in the joint conversion program established by patrilineal descent in conjunc matrilineal debate. Because of its crucial role IJN Special Assignments writer. The tape and those who did not - are presented. tion with "appropr.iaie and timely public and in American Judaism generalJy and in the recordings were transcribed by Larry Han formal acts or identification with the Jewish breakdown of Denver's joint conversion pro kin, who also coordinated the scheduling of These interviews were condu.ckd by UN faith and people." aram particularly, the issue or patrilineal des the interviews. This Conversion and Patri staff mtmbets and simultaneously recorded. that . or Jewish This meam babies bom cent was raised equally with that of the joint Uneal ~l special section was conceived, The transcripts from the tape recordings were fathers .,and. non-~ b. motbet'• •Mt:rC9D .. conversion pro.aram in the IJN'a intaview1 t ~ .• ·&. -. ~~A ') ! • edited. ~by • ~ '# .._ " :,-. .. ~......
The following is a summary of the pub- · menu, which weruu~IKd by the Tradi ing through the program. Some rabbis .ay that the unity wm be fish~ transcripts ofiilter-Mws with Denv~·s tional rabbis alone. TbeM reqWrancnts were WW l1111t Jol•t co•vtniom proan1m bt ~ because some r.t>bis wm not ae, rabbis, plus addit/ontµ factual information imm.erlioa.in l.bel.mLtwb ror a.female coo· ~? cept lbc.oJ.hers' converu and· thus ill some , revealed in the interviews but published on veit?'"andeitbef~.ot'hlW'•id.tm The Traditional rabbis describe the pro cues not perform weddinp jointly1 with ...... ly here, in summary form. brit ~--: symbol.ic."circumcision (see 0Jossary &ram retrospectively as a mistake. Other rab 1 ~ other rabbis, or not permit weddings of con- · Who partidpafed in Denver's joint conver and Abbreviations) - for a male cooyert. bis would like to see It reestablished, but do grqational, members with· a 1 n~m.,.ccepted sion program? Six years a,go, at the beginning of the pro not expect thar lo happen, at least in the near conver\ in)hat rabbi's and member'~
Page 2 - S.~tlon C lntermountaln Jewlah New• - CIYnukah Edition Patrlllneal Descent and Conversion December 2, 1983
may mean eajag_,.challah o.n S~~s. and matzah,on J>~ver . For us, dietary laws Traditional Rabbis have a different meaning. Our comp r omi~ was not to inquire rurther and say, "Well, Rabbi Stanley Wagner, BMH . . what do you mean by that? And we want to ' know how far you're prepared 10 .. . " Rabbi Qaniel Goldberger, HEBREW EDUC~TIONAL Our compromise was to ask the major questions which symbolized major com I ALLIANCE mitments to Judaism, LO the Jewish people. , . We said, "Do you commit yourself to the Rabbi Jerome Lipsitz, BETH J OSEPH Torah?" General quesLions. Our com· • promise was not 10 get too specific about i.t. I want to make it dear that it was tert with I}N interviewers: MIRIAM GoLDDERG, DORIS SKY, RABBI a question as to how far they would go. We HILLEL GOLDBERG, ,LARRY HANKIN, just gave the people the benefit of the doubt. CHRIS LEPPEK This was the beginning of a process, as Rabbi Lipsitz srud. We weren't prepared to say, ourselves, that this was the end. IJN: Was Ra(bi Laderman Involved in lhe They always had the option to say, even UN: It was a qutslion or degree ..• beginning, r~resenling the Alliance? though they agr«d to encourage their peo Rabbi Wasnttr: Oe.gree, yes. Rabbi Goldberger: Rabbi Laderman was ple, that those who didn't want to go through IJN: Does that mean that· you had some sorl never involved. the immersion [and the hatafat d.am] - the of follow up ~truclure hen? IJN: If Rabbi Laderman was nol involved, Reform had the option to convert them R•bbi Lipsitz: Not really. and since Rabbi Goldberger wasn'I at lhe privately. So it must be dear that it was never Rabbi Wagner: It would have been on our Alliance al that time, wh•l. if someone thoroughly 100 percent C?mmunal conver agenda. wanted lo convert from the Alliance? Who sion. It would have been So if aJI the rabbis Rabbi Lipsitz: We couldn't have for the Rabbi Jerome lipsltz could he &o to? Either one or you? had said, "Anybody who comes to us for simple reason that, I would say, 90 percent Jewish women in town. The Jewish women, Rabbi Upsltz: Rabbi Laderman referred conversion go through the communal of the converts were identified with the mwt especially, who are looking for Jewish men them either to Rabbi Wagner or to myself. conversion program, otherwise we're not go- Reform movement. This is where the sen· 1 - the existence of a program made it easier UN: Was il lhat lbbbl LadermH couldn' t ing to do it." : · silivity came in. We had no exposure to for a man lo say, "Well, Pll go out with a go along with this? They never did that ancf, therefore, it was them. We had no way of coming co them and non-Jewish girl and she'll become Rabbi Lipsitz: He just never did never a percent communal conversion saying "What are you doing?'' They were 100 converted." conversions. process. I want to make lhal clear. no longer within the framework or our in Rabbi Goldbt'rge:r: Because the Rabbis Rabbi Wagner. But he was very, very IJN: Art you saying that in addition to the stitution. They were identilied wi th Reform had a class for that. (In the past,J a couple much in favor or this entire program. JOO or 700 or whatever it is that the com· temples. would call, or an individual would call, and IJN: Now, everybody knows that really, the munlly did conversions. there may have lhere possibility, the as IJN: Was a before we'd say, "Come on in, we'll sit down wilh whole Jewish world was looking to Dennr palrillnw Issue and natrnch progr11m were hem others? you.'' Not that that still isn't the case. That to see how this process wms going to proceed. R•bbi Wagner: Nol may have been, there niised, that lhis might be dissolved? still ls. But [recently) we would gel calls into Now that you are oul or it, do you think this were. We don't know what the numbers are. Rabbi Upsitz: We were with our Reform our offices, "When do the classes begin?" was a six-year mistake? The Re form never exaaly revealed to us colleagues and as brothers we pleaded with The altitude was, "The rabbis have a class Rabbi Goldberger: It has to be slressed because they kept insisting that they were en them, " Please do not introduce two new con in town to take care of tha1." that for a long period of time, in America couraging everybody and ( am sure that they cepts into the community for the simple Rabbi W•Rner: And now especially with and in Denver, conversions were done for all did but I merely am saying that it must be reason that they will threaten the entire pro the patrilincal. A man who might have been denominations, with no fights and no clear that it was never a 100 percent com gram of conversion. We cannot as Tradi restrained - may have been - preferred to , uproar. Many people have said that we are munal conversion process. tional rabbis even begin to think to identify go out with a Jewish woman, wanted his raking a step back. We say, no, we haven't lJN: And you had problems wilb this? with what you are suggesting." children to be Jewish. We think that the gone backwards. We have just gone back 10 Rabbi Wagacr. I had problems with this 1 would like to read tflis summary the of patrilineal issue again, may, may encourage a position tba1 existed ve.ry favorably and because it always meant the compromises outreach porogram as was advocated by the very smoothly for a number of years. people who are borderline cases to say. that 1he Reform made, which were real - Central Conference of American Rabbis. II "Listen, I'm marrying a non-Jewish person, Rabbi Wagner: This is also very impor stiJI they had an out if the person didn '1 wan1 stated explicitly: " The task force has con but it doesn't make any difference, my tant. During the six years, we were impor to go through the communal conversion pro cluded that scelcingconvens is entireJy within children are going to be Jewish anyway. I'll tuned by many people to let people know They convert them anyway. Had historic traditions of Judaism." cess. could sec to i1 that lhcy're raised Jewish." We felt about it. they said that they wouldn't convert anybody This, or course. created the breach, and thar ir will be subject ro 1ha1 interpretation IJ~: Who wen "we?" c X.c:cpl through the communal conversion wccouldn'I even chink i111crmsofgoingou1 proaram11t'lftll&hr and knotklng on doors tr'jing tO' seducc.or ,au_s! tl\qe{o~ ~ecerbato tl}~.prq!.>lCfJl ,9.Ll\a.Y.r ~....,_Wll#lft!r. 'The entire· Denver Rab- .bawil~dlfteml• ing Jews fmd Jews and marry )ews. IJN: Old oy of you hanaay potendal con entice those who are not Jewish into a pro· binical Council. [There was pressure) on us Rabbi Goldberger: We don't think we can verts who wanted lo work oae-on-onc with gram for the simple reason that this would by rabbis all over the country. by leaders to stop the now of American assimilation, but thtir rabbis and not go through lht com be somehow entirely in opposition to our know exactly what we were doing. I must. tell we don't have to give impetus 10 it. munal proiram? undemanding of HaJachah. you that the Denver rabbinate refused 10 do IJN: Bui it's clear that prior to this conver Rabbi W•gnu: The only situation that I R•bbJ Goldberger: So, the two things so aU along. sion program - probably even during Its ex had was when, for ex.ample, a person who together - the patriJineal decision - which Rabbi Lipsitz: I think' it's important to istence - tbue wue any number or people grew up as a Jew whose mother mjght have is making a major breach in American note that our national bodies of Reform, who wtrt members or Temple Emanuel or been converted by a Reform or Conservative Judaism - because it is a qeviation from Conservative and Orthodox were really not other Reform synagogues or temples who rabbi. The person from the moment he grew something whose source is thousands of enthralled with our project. They felt that were children of Jewish fathers and not up considered himsetr Jewish, went to our years . . . in Moment Magazine, Prof. it was 100 radical and they just wondered Jewish mothers. And the palriline21 decision, religious school; and so on and so forth, but Pctuchowski, who is a professor at the why we we.re doing what we were doing. in a sense, simply confirmed whal ex.isled LJN: AU three groups? because halachically he wasn't Jewish, I [Reform) Hebrew Union College, [argued alre3dy. didn' t go through any oomrnunal conversion vehemently against it.] We thought that was RMJbJ Lipsitz: All three group5 - Rabbi Goldberger: Not "simply." It was process with people like that. one major breach. The second was to go in Reform, Conservative and Orthodox. When a na1ional public resolution. Rabbi Goldbttga: We have all had cases to a national program in our community. We we {rabbis in Denver) would sit together as IJN: 'Vou're saying that the mere existence of people who have been in the congreg~tion couJdn't go along with the Reform outreach a board, we would somehow relate [to each of a ronvirsion, logetber with the snitrillneal for years whose mothers were not Jewish. program. Rabbi Eisenman was with us on other) our experiences with our own rabbinic decision, says that no matter who you are or IJN: Lei's go back to the question of com that 100 percent. That is a program of the groups, we saw we had something in com what you are, you can end up Jewish without promises. Whal an your views of your Reform movement nationally. We thought mon as a form of cohesiveness, as we were terribly mucb difficulty? accommodatlo11S7 it would spread our resources too thinly. all somehow in a very sensitive predicament. Rabbi W•1aer. The whole process cases R•bbi Up$ltz: I would say primarily that UN: What kJnd of resources? There is no one in the hiSlory of this world the way - which is specifically the oricnta we were prepared to say that even though we Rabbi Goldberger: There were many. In that has ever tried a program lilce the one in Lion of the Reform movement - and is nol knew that all of the students coming out of dividual responsibility to o ur converts, which we were involved in Denver. Perhaps 1he orientation of the traditional Jew. the general conversion process would not be follow through with people. Also, to be part we did it because geographically we are Rabbi Lipsitz: I would say for myself, I authentic Orthodox functioning Jews, we of something that was sponsored by another somewhat isolated. Had we been in the do not have the great hesitation or reluctance were prepared to say as long as they were movement was something we feel we could throes of New York or Philadelphia, I think that Rabbi Wagner manifests in terms or the making a beginning, an effort, to learn not do. So it's those things togettier with there, too, there would have been a reluc class because from the beginning I saw this Judaism and to aspire to be committed Jews, patrilineal, and that goes back to s6mething tance. I think that this program, for the most developing. That hasn't disturbed me as we were prepared to offtt our-signatures. mentioned earlier: why didn't we seek part, for six years- even though there may much as it has disturbed my Traditional col Essentially, as traditionalists, we could publicity for all those years? We were able have been some individual problems - that leagues. never recognize the conversion process of lhc to stay within certain boundaries when it was it worked out quite well. What really disturbed me was when my Reform. They.didn!t go through the ba1achic just a Denver project, bur when national peo UN: Rabbi Upsitz, on Yom Klppur yoa said Reform friends introduced the two new areas process. So they were creating a diChotomy ple came in to talk to the Denver Rabbinical from die pulpit that each of the thrtt groups into the program which made me som~how in the community - two separate sets or Council . . . - Reform, C.Olltel"Vative feel that they were making a statement, that and TraditJoaal - Jews. And this disturbed us (Traditional rab JJN: Who were lhey7 ·had lo make certain acconimodaUons. rd bis] greatly. We were saying to them, please, th.ey themselves were unhappy with what was like yo11 lo ttpdt what some or those a«om why have two separate types or Jews? We Rabbi Wasner: Daniel Symes, who now going on, that perhaps the time has come for modatlons wtte. want to create a Jew that all of us· can is the assistant to (Rabbi Alexander) the Reform to go at it alone and we should Rabbi Up!/tz: Even though the Reform re recognize as being Jewish. This is cssential Schindlu and a lay person, Lydia Kulkoff. cons.ider going with our own traditional pro ject the HaJacbah, they agreed that they Jy why we went into the whole process. From IJN: So, you ' became upset prior to the gram. This is what upset me. would insist that kashruth be taught as a con our standpoint, the major area of com patrWneal decision? It was so flagrant I It was so obvious what cept. They would also say lhat Passover promise that usually requires kabbalas miu Rabbi Goldberger: Yes. As a matter of they were doing because they knew that both .Kashruth should be Instituted in the home. vos. We were waiting to see a little bit how fact, we were becoming apprehensive before of these concepts we could not live with. So But of course they did not believe in immcr they progressed. both of them. why introduce them? Why impose them &ion and hatafat dam bric. Their compromise Rabbi Wagna-: Let me see Ir I can qualify UN: Why? upon us when they knew we were going to was that their students too would go through that a little bit, ma.kc il more clear. Our com ' Rabbi Wa1ac.r: Because of all the things have to reject them? It was their way or say Che immersion process as well as the hatalat promise was sinrp(y that we did not make the we have said before and things we haven't ing to us: · ~ Enough is enough. H's been nice dam brit. thorough investigation that we might have said. ·There are two things that I want to add: for six years, enjoy yourselves and go into Rabbi Waiou: Wait a second. I want to made with our own converts - whether the Number one, we became uncomfortable something new.'' This is essentially what make this clear. f.or me, this is ;t major PffSOn, in praeuce, wa$ prepared 'to embrace with the fact there was a conversion program happened. point. ' ' a larger m~re of traditional Judaism. For in Denver. Anybody warit lo convert? Just UN: Are you sa.Yin1 that tile Reform group The Reform did not say that their can example, we' ask~ [the eon~,pi the com go10 a conversion pr.ogram. The existence said, "We are deflDUely 1oln1 to lnlroduce didates for conversion muse go through the m1.anal program) a series ofquestions . Nwn of a program1' bcgan to open the doors • tM patrWneal u oflldal,.T 1 communal c:onvcrsion process. Had they bcr one- "Wall• you • ol>sCne 1 thet dietary futther. · H ·•• '· 1 ' 1 .•:• '' ,Rabbi Wa1aer: The Reform movement, 1 done that, incidcntatly, it might have been laws?'v They had to answer in, the affir• IJN; Tot· . '· ' ·,' here in Denver, W.U open to the question of an entirely different pic.ture. maUve. 'For the Reform, the dietary laws ' bbbl Waiau: To undermine all the t '· I • • '• \ l'leue lft ,r ..e J • l • . I Otcember 2, 1113 PetrUlnMI Descent end Conversion Chenukah Edition - lntennountaln Jewish New• SecUon c
whether it would introduce patrilineal here. is slilJ Kial Yisrocl- Jewish unity. We have They can't openly repudiate their national shared with our Reform colleagues that for movement and they personally may or may the first time in 2000 years this unity is be not identify with it, but they were willing to ing threatened by patrilineal. Why? Because talk about bow the patrilineal issue would every Jew in the history of this world, affect Deaver. But again, the point was, that whether he was observant or not observant, they were always prepared to accept the if he was halachically Jewish he was con· patrilineal decision within their own sidercd a Jew. The fact that he was a devia congregations. tionist, didn't keep kashruth, Shabbat - IJN: They never said lo you, for the sake of that was another problem. He was, of lhe continuance or the ... course, a Jew. Rabbi UpsilZ: Arter they saw that we were Now the Reform, for the first time in 2000 alienated, after they saw that we were years, is coming with a program saying that meeting secretly amongst ourselves to try and if the father's Jewish, the child is Jewish. We do something separately, they felt that they can never consider the child to be Jewish. were going to be somehow singled out for So for the very first lime we are disturbing the program. They came back and fragmented within the Jewish community. said, "What if we sit down and somehow re We have two kinds of Jews. ll's a tragedy evaluate what we're saying vis-a·vis the pro· to have to singl.e oul individuals in the future gram of national outreach and also patri-' and say. "WeU, you're not Jewish because lineal?" your mother is not Jewish, even though the lJN: What does Chat mean, "re-evaJuale"? Reform will ~y lo you that you arc Jewish Rabbi WagMr: Specifically, I can tell you. If your father is Jewish." This is a very They said they were willing 10 discuss the im serious breach. plications of the national program for the IJN: Do you feel that the patrilineal issue Denver area, and they were prepared to say, ' Rabbi Daniel Goldberger hen In Amerlc:a will cause Che same problem "We cannot openly repudiate patrilineality, same week that we were meeting with the that the Reform Jew bas In Israel? but we are prepared to encourage every non conversion or I knew the family, which Reform {initially,) Rabbi Steven Riskin hap- Rabbi Upsit6: In Israel, a Reform Jew ls J ewisb woman to go through conversion. pened to be in Denver, six years ago. Al that Jewish, one hundred percent. He is accepted sometimes requires personal status even though they are married. We are not lime, he was the one who offered us sugges- as a Jew; he is recognized as a Jew. He is documents, my letter was never questioned. going to simply say since we accept Jewish tions in terms of the various compromises, part of the Jewish community. Patrilineal So, we can't say the Israeli rabbinate knew the circumstances. identity through the father, we are not go of how far we should go, because he felt that will create the same situation as with the Rabbi Goldbfrger: ing to bother non-Jewish wives to convert. the program was a definite asset. He would Karaites thousands of years ago. They I feel very strongly For Denver, we arc prepared to encourage like to have it inrroduced in many com- somehow broke away, became a separate en- about having a personal responsibility for every non-Jew to conve~ no matter what.•• muruties, but he knew that people would re- tity, and disappeared. This is the correct people who are converts. J feel uncomfor We regarded that as no1 much of a ject it. analogy perhaps. table signing a certificate for people with concession. whom I did not have a personal relationship. IJN: Why ls tbal? He felt here we could do it. A Reform Jew is Jewish. Under IJN: Howatt the thrtt or you now going He was the inspiration, at least as far as patrilineal, these arc not going to be Reform to handle converts? Are you going to have Rllbbi Upsltz: The underpinnings of the I'm concerned. He is definitely a national Jews. entire structure, I believe, were removed with classes or your own? Are you going to work Orthodox leader who felt somehow inclined IJN: Has then never, never been palrilineal with them one-on-one? whal they had suggested initially. · toward this program. In terms of the rcjec- desttaC la Judaism? Rabbi Wagner: We just felt thal the Rllbbi Goldbft'itr: I don't think any of us tion [of the program), this was something Rllbbl w.,aer: 1 would have to say that has decided completely yet. But we have schism was created, but the fact is that they that we wresllcd with, we worked with, and the sources are not so clear as to what con- withdrew. ldcologicaUy they were in favor decided there would be no joint conversion we did meet with Rabbi Hopfer. We know stituled Jewish identity in antiquity. class. of that statement that we have to start seek his sentiments. We started it and we ended it. IJN: What kind of sourttS7 ing converts, that we have to ease the way Rllbbi Wagnu: Among the Traditional Rllbbl w.,_,: We might say, that the real R•bbl w.,Mr. Can you show me one rabbis. for converts into our community. Because question was [not to get permission to pulJ source that specifically states that 1he child they were not prepared to say, "No, we will Rabbi Goldbn-xu: We will handle them out but to) get permission to involve of a Jewish rather and a non-Jewish molher individually. We are establishing c11e Na 'asdl not accept the children or Jewish fathers with ourselves, Rabbi Riskin may be Rabbi tip· is accepted as a Jew? You will never find one non.Jewish mothers as Jews, that they must V'Nishmah pro1ram for Jewish people, and sitz's inspiration, but he's not the po~t. sour~ 10 rhat effect. we may send I hem to ii as ii develops. Now. convert," because they weren't prepared to aharon {the final halachic euthprity). . UN: Wlaat art the IOW'~ f« the malrl- do that, we couldn't go along with it. Na '&sdl... • V'NWunab. are nor conversion UN: Aft yoa AY~ ~ ~~pnpand to . Walal'911UIJN: Did Y'..°".::;;d~~ii."'ijidliliMi•iiliiiiiireiib-ii1 .. 1i18tiinl a.t~IM(i-.dli.W.ilaaitM~~• • ~ ruto\U\tt the outrricb. but a«tt prep•red to R•bbl w..-•n We dbcutsed, or I di.,. ~rilineal - mcdlevaJ .sourcca. I.TN: W-·Yo• -tllilhd ,,,,,,,., ,,,_J,,,_ or rtnounce the patrillneal'? cussed, the matter with a number of Ocdolim UN: TM d•HIC c.,H Jml prior 10 Ifie Mid- rducallo11 ln lltr formrr con.,enfo• dassel7 Rllbbl Wagner: They were not prepared to but I did not ask them for any peuk (deci· die Aacs? Did you clalnk Chey wm geUJna enou&b buk renounce outreach; they were prepared to sion] because I was not prcputd to reject this lbbbl Wa1Mr: No, we have every reason lnfonueloaf not to introduce . . . You see . . . pesaJc beau~ I intuitively knew what they co believe it was always thal way. The sources lbNll Goldberiw Under that kind or UN: So l!Ry wen prepaml not to l•trodutt were going to say ("No.") are not that dear. From my point of view, system. yes. Che outreacb In Denvrr, and also they were UN: Were tbue consult.ado• with others I would have to smile at a movement which Rabbi W11att: I th.ink that education prepared not to go along, qulelly or other· Lon the decision to pull outl1 · has rejected so much of ..historic tradition" Lhat•a pareve, lhat's nonideologica1, tends to wlse1 with paCrillneal decision? Rabbi Goldbe,.,er: Officially, no. (and yet says:] "Historically, the father was create pareve Jews, \)eoplc that lack strong Rllbbi Wagner: They couldn't repudiate I think we have to address the issue of accepted as a source of Jewish identity." ideological commilments. .... - that, even quietly. The most they could say whether the decision made six years ago was It is rather ludicrous for me to bear that I think that in general there is an ingre· is that they would encourage everybody to correct because up until that time issues of from a movement that bas reject.ed so much dient missing from 1hc American Jewish convert. ritual matters did not come before the of the tradition. You want 10 go back and scene - commitment to ideologies. We IJN: So you are sayinit at thal point, you Denver Rabbinical Council since there were sec justification for the contemporary posi- would like to create Traditional Jews who could no longer go along . . . subcommittees or Traditional rabbis. Things 1ion on Jewish life from history? Well go are committed to Traditional Judaism as an Rabbi Wagner: No longer, because what that had to do with mikveh, divorces back to Shabbas and kashrurli and Jewish ideology. who see Judaism as the strength Reform movement had done was to legalize kashroth - all the ritual ma1ters - were Jaw, because that's really part or our history. of our people and the guarantor of Jewish a definition which went against everything handled by the subcommittee of Traditonal So I can't quite understand s~king justifica- survival. that we believed in. · rabbis. In retrospect, in hindsight, it may be lion in hlstory for a contemporary position UN: Say lbc girt was Jewish and her husband IJN: Is whal Rabbi Wagnu has been saying that it should have been reaJilzed that when when the Reform movement bas for so long converted. Perbapssbe bad not beeo deeply more or less rep~ntative of what you (Rab you get into the interpretation of Jewish law rejected so much of our history and lhe tradi- involved In the syoagogut! as a young per bis Goldberger and Lipsitz) believe? - it should have been kept separate. The 1io n which emerged out of that history. • son, although she wenl throu1tJI • Bat Milz (Nods of heads.} conversion program was done because we lJN: What Is the halachic status of the con- vab and confirmation, bul that was about Rabbi LJpsitz: Let me make just one more relt there was a need for Klal Yisrod, for uni- versions lhal were done through I his it. Now. when be converted, and the)· fundamental poinl. ty in the community and perhaps we went program? perhaps went into the Reform monmenl, Over the period of six years of working overboard in that particular area. Rabbi Goldbf~ The halachic status is coulda't you say that they bave come Into together with our Reform friends, I think we Rabbi Wagnt>r: l want to add to this a very that we stand by those thal have our the Jewish fold where they olherwise might began to ascertain one basic distinction bet important point. l think the lesson that we signatures on them; they have been accepted not have? ween the Reform and the Traditional. We learned from this six year experiment was in Israel - some of them have gone to Israel. Rabbi Wainer: We are certain Lhat the came away with the conviction that they felt that it's erroneous to build the idea of Jewish When we had to co-official, at marriages, Reform movement, conducting its program, that it was good, that it was a definite asset, unity on religious or ideological we did so. will contjnue to have that kind of success. to allract as many converts as possible to the compromises. , IJN: You ny some of tbem h.ave gone to We arc not saying Lhat people should stop Jewish community. In this way, they would There are a hundred ways to build Jewish Israel. What exactly does that mean? converting. Nothing is going to prevent the make up for the assimilational process that unity. Rabbi Goldbtfltr: Some of them have Refonn movement from creating those kinds is taking place in Denver and throughout the We can work together for Israel, Jewish gone and been married. Some have settled of converts . . . country. education. We can talk about reaching out in Israel. lJN: Now, what ii someone - •boy or &irl They were really excited about lhe con to the unaffiliated, we can talk ·about UN: Of those who have &oe and been mar from a family la any one or your coogrqa verts. defense, honor of the Jewish people. There ried la Israel, do tlM people In Israel know lloos - comes and says, " I want to marry For us, we were more pragmatic, realistic. are a hundred ways to work for Jewish uni the drcwnshlnces 11nder which they con a girl who Is not Jewish.'' Tbey ask about We knew thal in the liberaJ society in which ty in love and in respect without calling upon verted? the convcnlon. They come to you and you we Jive there would be individuals coming in the Reform to compromise its ideals and the R•bbl Goldbfrger: The feller comes from say to lhe girt, "Are you re:ady to accept ripe to the community seeking out conversion, Traditional to compromise. And therefore us which bears our sjgnaturcs, and that was down lbe Une according to lh.lacbu?" Sbc but not to the extcru that we would get to build a Jewish unity on the basis of such sufficient. They were accepted in both Israel saJS yes, but you cao tells It's witb a great ecstatic about it and say, "Hey, we want compromises is a very shaky foundation. and in the United States, based on the letters. deal of raerv1doa. Thea they llaink they're you, we love you, we need more everyday." And what's more, it literally prevented us IJN: Are you saying the authoritlct in Israel not goina lo make it. Can they 10 to the Re. Thjs was the basic difference. I think this from exploring the other avenues of unity knew full well • • • form? has to be understood. and how we can work together. So we feel, R•bbl Goldberier: No, they didn't know All tbrtt nbbis: Of course. Rabbi w.,au: One more thing-, and this at least the Traditional rabbinate feels, that full well. RlllJbi Upsltz: Reform converts don't have is really at the heart of it. The Reform in our rather than having the break-up of the con Rabbi w.,Mr: We didn't sign certificates to Learn Hebrew; they don't have to put in community misinterpreted our pull-out and version procedure destroy Jewish unity, it stating that the following candidate came the hours that they have to with the rest of misinterpreted our reje£tion of Reform con was the beginning of a pr~,s of creating from the Reform Movement and we super us, so it's always been much easier. version as regarding Reform Jews as second a firmer Jewish unity, based not on religious vised onlY the mikveh so we can't be respon· Here, too, you ·have to understand the class citizens. compro~.~. ~ut on a com!JlP,!1 usessi;nent s.ible. Our certificate stated specifically that tragedy that starting October, after six years, UN: lo your decision to pull-out of Cbls pro of the problem$ that face us as a com.municy, this person wa.s kasber le-khol davar shebi we, representing the Traditional commuru pam, did you colled.lvcly or h1dMdully ~ IJpiltz: Rabbi Wagner state4it vr:ry ko:hrshab: And that's the certificate that they ty and the Orthodox community, and 1 be eoasall olller rabbhalcal autllorttlcs? clcarty, but I think there's one area here got. When I sent a letter to Israel stating that lieve Rabbi Eisenman will concur with us, RUbl Up$1tz: ll just so happened that the which we have to ao into. Our un~diog such-and·sucll was a' Jew, whether through Pleue tee Pap 11 Page 4 - Section C lntermountaln Jewish News - Chanukah Edition Patrlllneal Descent and ConversJon December 2. 1983
R•bbl Foster: Excuse me, I think that is a misreading of the (patrilineat decision) Reform Rabbis document. That is the typical response that we. as Reform rabbis. get from more tradi· Rabbi Steven Foster, TEMPLE EMANUEL lional people that that is whar 1he documcn1 says: that you don't have to do anything, Rabbi Richard Shapiro, TEMPLE EMANUEL that all you have to do is have one Jewish parent and the chiJd is Jewish. That is Rabbi Herbert Rose, HAR HASHEM (BOULDER) precisely the poin't that I was trying to make. IL is not a mailer of who is and who is not Rabbi Raymond Zwerin, TEMPLE SlNAl I he Jewish parent. le is also a matter of how the child is raised so that a c.h•lu born or a Jewish father and raised in the relig.ion or the mother is dearly not any more Jewish, in my IJN interviewers: MIRIAM GOLDBERG, DORIS SKY, RABBI opinion, than a child born of a Jewish HILLEL GoLDBERG, LARRY HANKIN mother and raised in the religion or the faLher. It is a matter of consciousness. IJN: So there is no presumption of the F.ditor's Nt1tr: Due to scheduling connicts, the resolution was setting forth, I was Jewishness or any Jewish child? Rabbi Raymond Zwerin of Trn1ple Sinai was wondering why we were doing it at the time. Rabbi #"osier: You have to read the docu· unable to be i111erviewcd together with l1'is I was wondering whether we were doing it menl.1 You know you can't just read the first Reform colleagues. His separate interview only to lhrow down the gauntlet to our tradi· sentence and that is the mistake that every follows this Now we li ve in an assimilated world and the only way we are going LO guarantee peo. Rabbi Foster: 1 didn't say rhat. I think pie ma~ing Jews is to go back to a ghetto th~y made a terrible mistake. I personally mcntabty or go back lo Lhe ghetto. Since we thmk that what we had here was worth clearly are not going to do Lhar in Lhis socie preserving. Wor1h preserving to the point ty, intermarriage is somethfog that we are go that we ~ Reform rabbis wrore a letter to ing to have to live with. I think what we've our 1rad111onal colleagues indicating to them done . here is ralh~ rhan transmitliog a that we were willing to forgo any program negallve message as transmit a positive of th~ UAHC, that we were willing - as message. Rabbi Wagner has called it, the status quo Th.e mc:ssage is that you can opt into ante - chat we would go back to the slatus Judaism: 1f you do marry someone who is quo ante of last Decembcr. thar we would not Jewish, regardless of who does the mar do eyerything we could to heat whatever rying, your children can be viewed as Jews wounds seemed to have been caused by the when appropriate and timely fJewisbJ acts Reform movement, that we would disavow [are performed). so on and so forlh. any part and parcel with Lhe outreach movement. And maybe there are Jewish fathers out there who are marrying non-Jewish women We had also made a pledge ourselves and they hear about this and they say we ~hich w~ did not put in writing, that whc~ never knew we had an opportunity to raise II Ca~e lime for lhe issue o f eaJrilineal des our kids as Jews. I think in the long run we ~t, tn o ur community. not m terms or the will gain numbers for our people, not Lose philosophy, we would do everything within num~rs, alth?ugh that is not the purpose our power wiU1 our own people to sec to ir that the children that were going to be raised of thtS resolution. f think that is a side ef lhbbi lticbard Shapiro fect. Bui I don't think that this resolution, as Jews would be taken to the mikveh as in- Rabbi Steven foster ~asscd by a group of rabbis in Los Ang~les Rabbi Shapiro: That's correct, but lhar fants and converted according to Halachah. depends on who you read. • Not that I was going to stand up and disavow This came out of an Orthodox rabbi. She's m 1983 - nobody is going to give a darn not Shomeret Shabbat (Sabbath observant) Rabbi Fostu: Maimonides would opt for pat_rilin~al descent. because f happen 10 about whether or not they marry a Jew or she doesn't keep kashruth, she doesn't d~ a non-Jew because the CCAR made a state a more liberal standard . . . believe 1t. I am not going to stand up and anything. UN: Tban7 say to you or anyone else that it is wrong, ment on patrili.neal descent. That's stretching f would not bring to a Bet Din a woman, because I happen to believe it's right. it in my opinion. Rabbi Foster. Than members of the RCA for example, who wasn't commiued to light· here. ThaL's how we all got started on this That doesn't mean that I don't understand ing Shabbat candles, and who wasn.'t using whole joint conversion program to begin the point of view of my Traditional col IJN: Did you anticipate the outcry by Shabbat candles, at least as an entry point Orthodoxy? with. That's how we got started. l~g~es , and that I wouldn't do everything for Shabbat. I would have insulted the R•bbi Foster: 0( course. IJ N: There Is an Issue here that Is not being w11hm my power to see 10 it that a child is compromise. addressed. Isn't the definitional issue - who conv~rted acording co Halachah, so that Rll~bi Sh~pfro: That's why, by the way, IJN: This was tbe Cirs1, really the only rom is or who Is nol 11 Jew - qualitatively dif· there is no question about the Jewish aulhen you wall notice the CCAR palrilineal resolu munity, in which such a community-wide tion was limited 10 lhe Jews of North ferent from any olher issue that has divided t icity of that child vis-a-vis halachic ap proaches to Judais.m. So we agreed to do convel'Slon program was held. Do you see America. We have not presumed to speak for that it could succeed somewhere else? our Reform colleagues in areas where 1he Rabbi FOSftt: The Zionist issue is different everything we could, and they still couldn't Rabbi Foster. I think that it will succeed from other issues. and in that respect, I go along with us. Reform community has a much more here eventually. I do. I 1hink thal after all tenuous relationship with the traditional would say yes, it is qualitatively different IJN: You've iden•med three reason~: of this is said and done - give it some time community, where they don't have the from oLher issues. numbers, outreach, and palritineaJ. In numerical strength that we have here. We IJN: Doesn't th.at mean tbal you can't say respect to lwo or lhem, you were willing to IJN: First you said "eventually." Now you don'1 pretend to speak for Europe or Aus we couJd give a littJe on that and you should Iorgo. Then, why did the joint conversion program break up7 say "Rive 11 some lime." Han you go1 any tralia or Israel or anywhere else where Jews give a little on that - you must be lalking lime frame? live. about the same issues when you talk about Rabbi Fosttr: You'll have to ask my R11bbi Fost~r: Eventually. should lbbbi Fostu: 1 must say something to you bow people should be giviag or not Traditional colleagues. IJN: Whal wlll happen with your c:onYerls on this whole issue, and that is it seems to be &lving? R•bbi Shapiro: Rabbi Goldbcr{!er srated startlnir now? me that Kial YisroeJ is always called into Rabbi Rose: I do think that the legitimacy ~or th~ record that he regards tht> entering R•bbl Foster: Our converts now must be q~estion_ when Reform rabbis do something or lhe right that a Conservative or Reform into lhis program as a mistake. Even if there told that their conversion1 - just as it used rabbi who wants to act on the Halachah to with which Orthodox rabbis disagree. But was compromise, he regards the program lo be - will be a~ted certainly by us, by , the things that go on between Orthodox and perform a conversion - and also, in Israel from rhe beginning as a mistake - thal they most Conservative rabbis, because most of · ~eform rabbis wb~ Orthodox rabbis may to deny a rabbi.of •hfFAcgna~eaatio.!l: ~~bJp_s, ~~IP~}°'& D'fU,C:_h· ~;;' . ~~q~ab~ µ)~~~ illlfi impose standard$ upon u.~ that we arc not usually mo.re observant than the aYC't'age • AIUIOI .KOR! I W n:: ..lly Surpris«I with the ~ versloiU'O'fanyC'Olte.as3'~~-· - prepared to accept - tha1•s never called Kial Reform rabbi in the US, the right to perform clear reference by our Onhodox colleagut>s aecepr~ by tM Orthodox mo••emmt. We rel/ Yisrod. a marriage - is a very severe infringement as to numbers, and to the quality of our con chem thar right up front. We don'r play Let me just sive you another example. We on the recognition of the legitimacy of the verts nor being what they were before. You'll game$ with lhis business. at this synagogue have bef!n more than anx whole movement. have to recognize chat the Orth.odoJt had to 1 lhink th.al evenlually, when things cool ious to cooperate when we have a Traditional While I don't agree with what went on supervise rhe milcveh; they wouldn't allow down, it ls my hope, it is my prayer - I real and Reform rabbi doing a marriage here with patrilineal, 1 don't think it is any of us 10 do it. Lr they were getting as ly believe .•. ceremony. From my own perspective, the re qualitatively more severe than what bas b.een many as 30 to 40 a month . . . UN: You fed tbat lhe community b poorer quiring of a traditional ketubah (Jewish mar legislated against the ' liberal rabbinate in Rabbi Foster: They weren't gelling close ror not having tbls program? to that many. riage contract] is hardly in keepin.g with Israel. I do think this is quite a severe issue Rabbi Foster: Poorer, yes. ' Reform ideology. And yet if an Orthodox - it is an important issue, but I don't think R•bbl Shapiro: The most they ever had in Rabbi Rose: J really think that when all r, rabbi comes here, if be wants to bring bis it is more important than the second-class one Bet Din was 10, maximum. Is said and done the Reform rabbinate did kosher tdim (witnesses), if he wants to use citizenship put upon 1he liberal Jew and the Rabbi Rott: We had a large class here. everything to reconcile it after the events a ketubah, we've kind of overlooked it, liberal rabbi in the State of Israel. The candidates that I had senL down were took place. because lbe Traditional rabbi says unless you IJN: Would lt be safe to say your willingness above-average people. From the paint o f fn all deference to my Orthodox col do it my way I won't come here. Now it lo perform alJ ritual ~ulrements with view from what I've seen - I've been in lhe leagues, Chey evidently had initial reserva seems to me that also raises the question, respect lo conversion, and tile uawiUingoeM rabbinate for over 25 years - the converts tions about ii, and some of 1he.se lhings that that 1 sent down there, the quality of our why don't you bend a liule bit for Kial to accept thls, led to the collapse or this Joint occurred - the Reform outreach program convetts was of a very high nature; they were Yisr~I? conversion program In Deaver? Why did this and the patrilineal - sort of pushed lhem collapse? sincere. I've only bttn in Boulder about a on lhe other side. This confirmed some of IJN: Isn't the palrilinul issue qualltaUvely R1bbiSbapiro: For one reason only, and year-aod-a-haJf and.some of my best, en their reservations. When we tried to recon differe11t from aJI of tbose othus? Whether it's renected accurately in the minutes of the thusiastic congregants have come out of this cile - we said we aren't going to do this. you beUen in Divine Rndation or not, Denver Rabbinical Council meeting at which program. ~ we weren't going to do that - in the interest wbetber you observe Shabbat In this way or it collapsed . IJN: Then there really bn'I much of an of main1aining the program, it wasn'I the olhet way - aJI of these tbeologlcal and R•bbi Foster: Before we gel into that, I agreement between aJI thru. enough. It had already reached a point of practical lhiap - you have a lietubab, you think what happened in term~ of the demise /Ubbl Fostu: Wajt a minute. There is very decision. don'I have a btubab - none or these Issues of our program was a feeling - l can't speak much or an agreement. It was really an in I would hope that there could be some determine tbe basic defhution of who ls a for my Traditional colleagues, l can only sult to us to say rhat qualitatively their con- reconciliation. Jew. Wouldn't YO• ag:ree tbat all of the pre guess at what their fee.lings were - that the • verts were better lhan ours and therefore they I wanr 10 say this on behalf o f the Or vious and continuing disl&Jffments qoaethe patrilineal issue, coupled' with the willingness didn' t want to ~icipate wit~ us any longer. thodoit rabbis. We do have a good rapport less allow us lo live and lllUTY with euh of the UAHC to bring a new program of You '0 see that in another letter lhat goes wilh with lhem and I hope that we will continue other, wherus the patriJiaeal dedsio11 does outreach to 9enver - coupled with - and this. It's really unfair. The quality o f our on other issues to maintain a common con aot7 I think you have to take all three of them conversions was high caliber, high quality cern for Israel, Soviet Jewry, Jewish rights IUbbJ SIJ•plro: l know one that doesn't together - the tremendous numbers of peo· people. here in the US. and r'll cite lhe perfcct example - gerur, pie who arc seeking Judaism and who have And the question is, what do you mean by Perhaps when tempers simmer.down we conversion. Even if I agree to take any ger been findjng a home within the liberal bran high quality? By my standards, it means that can work together even on this program. The or giyyoret (male or female convert) to mik· ches of Jewish life - because we have been the commitments that we have adhered to, people in the classes - the converts veh, undergo immersion, tevilla, harafac dam more willing to accept and to teach and so the standards of what we have asked people thcmsclves - wanted the joint efforts to con brit, accordjng to Halachah, the ger will not on - I think if you take att three of those to do in terms of their own practice, were. tinue. This goes across the board, wbethe.r be ~epted. togelher, I think it became too much for my going to be met. they' re Conservative, Orthodox or Reform Traditional colleagues. candidates. In fact they wrote a petition and DN: That's tbe same issue. I can only give you one example of - it's presented it to some of lhe rabbis to-:main Rabbi Sllaplro: It is not the same issue. J think they could have dealt with the fact an excq)tion perhaps - I sat in on one Bet that we were doing a Jot of conversions, but Din for one convert or one of my traditional tain it. What I'm saying is I'm willing to ad.hereto IJN: How, thea, would you characterize the HaJachah and convert that individual, but you have LO understand that two years ago, colleagues right here in town and we asked we were already gelling the ftrst inkling that her if she was going to light Shabbat candles rabbinical anily ia the ~nver area? because it is a foreign ideology in haJachic Rabbi 1·o:;ter: 1 think personally we are terms, because the convert ad.heres to there were problems here because some of and she didn' t even know what they were. still friends. There isn't any question about Reform Jewish ideas, that convert will not our colleagues were really kind of poking al IJN: By /kl Din, you mean ••. that. We disagree abaout a fundamental be accepted even if the conversion ceremony us -you're doing 100 many, you're doing IUbbl Foster: We had a Bet Din made up issue and we' re sorry that the program is no is according to Halachab - that is where the too m;my. of a Traditional, Conservative and Reform more, bul that doesn't mean that we are not Orthodox, I think, are excluding us from That became troublesome LO them. rabbi. And every person who was converted personally commitred to one another, com Kial Yisroel. I' m willing to adhere to all of They have a different ideology and a dif through the community system came to lhat mitted ro many of. the programs that Rabbi their standards bot they still won't accept it ferent framework from which they begin. So Bet Din Md then the Orthodox rabbi would Rose bas already expressed. because I'm not a member of lhe Rabbini· I chink if you take all three of those together. take that person with two kosher wiLDesses UN; Could we 10 back for just a momeal cal Council of America (Orthodoit]. all at the same lnne or in· a rshort period of to the miltveh. That was the comprorqise. time, that•s·what undid our'program. But I remember this one case - it stands ou1 lo 1omet.bl11c that Rabbi Shapiro said earlier UN: Bat tile standards are not just ritual IJN: Are you qytaa lllu yoa doa't blame in my mind very clearly. She hadn't thc,fog. c:e&ardia& Ult palrillneal resolution? You slllcl stanclards. them? giest notion of what Shabbat candles were. Plaw .. hJt 1 • • Page 6 - Section c lntermounlaln Jewlah News - Chenukah Edition Patrlllneel Descent and Conversion December 2, 1983 gram SttVed as a kind of unwitting vebkle ror intermarriage by ma.king ii more accep· Conservative Rabbi table lo date a non.Jew since ii would~ fair ly simple ror a non.Jew to become a Jew? RODEF. SHALOM Rabbi ~nm11n: I think that there was Rabbi Bernard Eisenman, some orthat. As l renect back now, if there is a positive side of the undoing of the joint 1JN interviewers: RABBI Hu 1 EI GoLDBERG, LARRY HANKIN board of conversion. ii was lhat we would be going back to a Maimonidean balachic view of how converts need to approach JJN: Were there cases in which potential con· problem was the entrance or patrilineality, Judaism and how we should approach the verts had been sponsored by individua.I rab· to which the Orthodox including myself convert. And the word is discouragement. bis. had completed the 16 wuk course, had couJd not agree to. To the credit of our l have a feeling that there wasn't enough come back and fulfilled the inner congrega· liberal colleagues, patrilineality, though na of that. UonaJ requirements, bul nonetheless were re tionally the Reform movement has ad And maybe that was an underlying prob jttted by the joint board or inquiry? vocated the acceptance of patrilineaJity, our lem. If there is an area of diversity between Rabbi Eisenma11: In my time, there were Reform colleagues were willing lo say that the Reform, the Orthodox, and the Conser three cases with which. I recall specifically, they would not accept patrilineality in order vative, it's how accessible one could get to we were n.ot happy. In one case, we thought to maintain this program. That's quite a conversion. 1ha1 psychological issues were involved. In statement. Aqd I know that Rabbi Foster I am traumatized when a person says 10 the second case, we d1d not feel the sincerity. made thal statement. me, "I want 10 convert to Judaism." I get I In the first year. recall very vividly that In any case, there arc a number of reasons Rabbi Bernard Eisenman very nervous about it because I know 1hal we asked the candidate lo go out and sit that I can understand from the the Orthodox ii is a long-term process and ii should be a do,\'n until we discussed the situation. We side for pulling out. The Orthodox rabbis very difficult process, because you are talk What are lbc other ramificalions? asked the candidate to reconsider and maybe and l did not have that many converts in the ing about lhe undoing or a formal culture, Habbi Eisenman: The synagogue admis come back lo us again. 1 can't recall if the program. If I had in the whole year seven sion procedures. One asks the individual his number one. candidate ever did come back to us. converts, that was remarkable. The Reform You are talking about the undoing of the or her Hebrew name. the Hebrew names of There was a parame1er. We could not in grouping had a large number. And that may the mother and the father. so you are mak relationship Lo your paremal community, have created some of the dilemma because dulge every candidate. Generally, however, ing these kinds of inquiries as to gcneology. that is, your parents' Christian community, the feeling was that the interviewing process in the end of the process, you could have 13 which I Feel very bad about at times because IJN: What is the policy bert al Roder was thorough and that we would not seek to or 14 come before the board in one shoe and I know how a Jewish molher would fed if Shalom regarding miud couplts? undo what a rabbi has invested il1 a convert. then they would have co go to the mikveh a Jew converted into Catholicism or Pro Rabbi 1'.:isenm•n: Jn a mixed couple, the Now attendant 10 that procedure was real and the Orthodox rabbis were assjgned Lo the Jewish panner is a member of lhe congrega teslantism. And one has 10 be sensitive 10 ly a remarkable 'liystem or the Reform ab task. It became a very unappealing activity tion. If the cl1ild is a descendant of a Jewish that loss. There is loss involved. dicating some or their desires and the Or because you lost the relationship with the in Therefore the accessibility to conversion. mother, 1hen he or she is enlitled to all Jewish thodox abdicating somewhat in order 1ha1 dividual. That is some of the argument and I think, was moving somewhat rampantly. rights and privileges. The non-Jewish part the principle of Kial Yisroel be maintained. I understand thal. The abundance of peo I had some concerns toward the end of the ner has no, as I call it, no citiz.enship - may Obviously, the Reform had to agree to the ple who came through that program, I think, Board of Conversion. Your question is well not come on rhe pulpit, may not partkipale tevi/ah, the immersion, to hatafal dam brit, was overwhelming for six rabbis to . . . taken. There could have been people who in any rilual avenues, nor serve on the board the covcnantal ceremony. They agreed thal IJN: Do you queslion Cite aulhenlicity or slipped through and that is tragic because of trustees of the congrcgauon. rhe candidates who came before lhe board sincerity or &he numbers coming through they end up being marginal converts. 1 think IJN: How do you view lbe Reform policy agree to a modicum of kashruth. . from the Reform? that conversion requires greater attention 10 thal confirmation is Lanlamounl to On the immersion side - and this is where Rabbi FMnmu: I never got into that. The the inner pysche of a convert because if you conversion? it got somewhat complicated - the agree code or conduct. was that these are responsi pay attention, you will have a greater Jew ment was, by the Reform and by myself as ble rabbis - Rabbi Shapiro, Rabbi Foster. Rabbi Eisenman: 11 does not mcel our in the end. So, your question is a fair halachic definition of who is a Jew. the other non-Orthodox rabbi, that Lhe im and Rabbi Zwerin - and therefore, I would question. IJN: Now, I 1m hning a problem with mersion and the covenantal ceremony would have assumed that each candidate lhal was IJN: What are you going to do now with be in the hands of the Orthodox totally. The going through the program was thoroughly semantics here. You have refenfli, if I recall your converts? laity chat would be acceptable to the Onho inteFviewed. correctly, most of the time, lo some of your Rabbi U5mman: At RodcfShalom, we'll dox community as the witnesses, they would UN: You ~ndcrstood a number of the colleagues on &be Oener R1bbinical Coun onJy convert someone who is related to my be the coun that would witness and direct reasons that lht Orthodolt were uncomfor· cil as Orthodox rabbis. They refer lo congregation. It may be a young man whose the ritual conversion. I. as a Conservative fable, and one or these w.as the abundance themselves as Tnldilional rabbis. And I'm parents are members of our congregation wondering whelher from your point of view rabbi and the Reform rabbinate would sLcp or converls • • • and meets a non-Jewish panner and they ou\ from that particular process so there Rabbi Eisenman: rr r had difficulties with there really Is any dislincClon - given your sripulate to me fhat rhey desire to be in the theology and rilual and the way you run your woµJ.d ~ no balachic llcaalJ problems. Thal, lh~ proa.i:arp il was .~hal yiie tended to.lose,. ambiance of Conservative Judaism. Then I coniftPtloa and your own Jewish standards coo, was working. " the intimacy that conversion requira. Con wiJl consider exploring the nature of the con· - between you. and them? IJN: You were the Conservalive rabbi. Is version is an act between a rabbi and the can• version with that individual. Rabbi Eisenman: Your question is that why you were the first chairman of the didate. There was something about the pro IJN: )'OU teach Lbem yourself. now that touching the nub or the confusion in Denver wm program? gram that took away from that. And l there is ao joint class? around Conservativism. And that's why Rabbi Ei~nman: I have the feeling that understand that. I sensed tbaL Rabbi Eisenman: We have always had at Conservative Judaism didn't succeed as it my colleagues wanted a triad or three bran IJN: You menlloned your own objecllons lo Roder Shalom an ongoing program. Davida shouJd have in Denver, Colorado. ches and it seemed logical that the Conser patrilinulity. Could you opl.aln lhose? Danish has been kind to us, being our resi The truth is that my Traditional colJeagucs vative rabbi would serve as the. . . the term Rabbi EJ~nmu: From a pure halachic dent instructor for over 12 years. She has would be the equivalent of right-wing Con "chairman of the conversion board" is point of \•iew. the definition or a Jew is that always been the master teacher on the in servative rabbis of the East. The distinctions misleading. It really was a secretary- main whkh is a descendant of a Jewish mother. I between the three Traditional congregations dividual basis. will work with the converts tajning lhc records. the sequence or inter So we're dealing with the undoing of pro on the theological and on determining and Rodef Shalom are very little. They use views - it was an administratjvc role. I don't per gcncaJogy. This has been the definition whether the convert has psychically made a microphones: men and women sit logether; know what the motivations were at the time. of Judaism since the time of Ezra and. transference into Judaism chat is satisfying. Of course, I was in the middle. Nehemiah. so that we're talking about shadings of distinctions. UN: Will you encourage your converts to IJN: Now, the Traditional rabbis baye pull While il could be argued that prior to Ezra have a bal1cbic rllual conversion? ed out or this. and Nehemiah descendency was patrilineal, We have accepted the right of women lo Rabbi Eise.nman: They must have. R•bbi EJsenmH: That's right. lhe fact of lhe matter is the halachic defini equal privileges ritually at Rod.cf Shalom. UN: Tben, will the Tradilional rabbis honor UN: Have you, or aol7 tion is as it sta.nds. In terms of the State or [They don't, so) that would be a distinction. your coaverts . • . Rabbi Eisenman: Well, the whole thing Israel. which is a significant defining point We use the trienniaJ cycle instead of the an Rabbi Eisenman: From what 1 under has been undone. So it 's not a question of in Jewish history right now. the undoing of nual cycle in the reading of the Torah - that stand, they wiU not. whether 1 pulled out. The board of conver the definition or who is a Jew in that legal would be a distinction. We do not repeat the IJN: Whal will you do if you need a sion and its process have been undone. I parameter ' would undo the whole entire musaf on Shabbat morning, that signature for Israel? would have stayed with a system like this genealogical structure of Israel, that is, the would be a distinction. Rabbi Eisenm•n: Don't forget. we have because 1 do believe that th.e system is an ex community of the Diaspora and Israel. And But as to other distinctions, I'm not too a long history before the board of conver cellen1 system. But being that to the right of as [Reform lheoloaian Jacob) Petuchowski sure, fr'om a consumer point of view, that sion. Converts who wanted to make aliyah me and to my kft, it was undone ... wrote in Moment Magazine, that which link for the worshipper, there is much distinction have been informed from lhe very outset that IJN: ut's puC ii lhl.s way: When the Tradi· ed the Lubavticher Rebbe with a Reform between Conservative Judaism and Tradi· going to the Stale of lsraeJ with a document 0 lional rabbis came and sajd, We want to rabbi was this issue of genealogy which was tionaJ Judaism as it's called. So, I gues.s what signed by a Conservative rabbi wiJI not be Pl:lll out,•• did you say, "I agree with them: not tampered with. l 'm saying is that tpere is very little line of recognized in the State of Israel. There is a l want to puU out, loo," or, "No, we ought While J underslllJld some of the historical distinction between Conservative and Tradi forewarning. l haven't had that many that to hold this lhing togelher." reasons as to why matrilincality was created tional. It's primarily institutional - we have made aliyah; l will admit th al there are Rabbi Eisenman: I didn't say anything. - the husbands went off lO war - we had belong to the United Synagogue of Amertca. Orthodox rabbis in the US who have been And I don't mean to be cute about it. I'm to have a defining point: Who sires the child? UN: In what kind of time period dJd you see very kind when it comes to aliyah. For that only one rabbi in the middle and I recognize Judaicly? The fact of the mailer is that we the joint co11verslon program deteriorating? mitzvah, they will do anything and generally thaL. If you're asking me, do I agree with the must have a parameter by which we all are JUbbi Eism1JWJ; It really began with some upon the declaration of a convcrt's making Orthodox, or who do I agree with, I musL going to define ourselves. The State or lsrad mixed messages which came from the aliyah, they have handled the ritual so that say that both sides had reason co undo the is Lhat binding, defining point. And therefore Reform side in which there was a "Project there would be no difficulty for that in joint conversion program. My personal I could not go along with patrilincal. Other Outreach" (conversion of "unchurched Gen dividual. I am happy about that personally. preference would have been.for it to succeed, wise, we arc going to have great confusion tiles''} here in Denver. it gives me the greatest anguish that my clearly. , so that people who enter, say, a traditional The Reform rabbinate asked the Tradi converts cannot be recognized in the State UN: (n other words, they had their rupee· congregation, inquiries will have to be made tional rabbis if we could use our joint con of Israel. rt is demeaning and it's one or the live reasons for undolrlg it, bur you djdn't as to dcsccndcncy because they may not be version class as a testing ground for Project parts that's a paradox to me: That a faith bave any reasons for undoing it? of the Jewish faith in terms of this legal Outreach. although the Reform is willing to group with such a love of ethics and love of Rabbi Eisenm•n: J had no reason to un definition. make any kind of agreement that this would lhe stranger, that the love of their own do it. I can't say that l - being that. they UN: Wbm you aay Traditional congrega not be seen as a Reform project nationally. grouping is not extended Lo Conservative are in lhc majority - there's no reason in tions, you an including Conservative? The agreement was chat this would be the Jews. discussing what l would do. I had no role Rabbi Ei~nman: Within Conservative perfect place to try it, allhough nationally IJN: Do you think Chai the unlty or tbe in that. congregations, definitely. We arc going to it would not be seen that way 10 protect our Oennr Jewish community, In a deeper sense, In my opinion, t feel very bad that it was have to be, in the next generation, for sure program or conversion so that the Orthodox bas been damaged or improved as a result undone. 1 understand. however, why it had ... it may not be easy to move from a Re would not be indicted nationally for par or this bmtkup of the conversio11 board? lo be done. form congregation to a Conservative con ticipating in a Rcf.onn program. Rabbi Eisenman: The unity of the com IJN: Do you thhtk there was a way it could gregation. So there is great harm done to the 11le fact of the matter is - ~bottom line munity will be affected by lbis greatly. It may have continued, sati5fying both lite Rdorm unity of the House of lsraeL - was once that process began, J think il mean that a Conservative rabbi and a Tradi and the Orthodox? UN: The CCA.R has passed tlJJs resolulloa, · began some of the introspection as 10 whru tional - or whatever you call them - may Rabbi EJ!iellman: I don't know that it so l 1uess there are rabbis throughout the we were doing. could have gone on much longer. Part of the country who are pulling II Info practice, lJN: Do you think th1t the conversion pro· Please see Paae 7 -· Oecember-2, 198?_ Patrmn~I pesc:ent •.nd Con_veralon Chenukah _Edlllon - lntermounteJn Jewish ·N.ws Section c - Paga 7 they're not Jewish? How can you say ir?" I could even go turther. We've decided to Reform Rabbis have: a kosher home, so we'll have a kosher ~onUnued rrom Page S hom1e. I could go even further, we've decid· lJN: What finally happened witb this &irl1 ed tio be shomer shabbas. tbac tbis resolution was 111e11nt only for lhe Rdbl RO#: She didn't go ch.rough with IJN: Whal arc yoa getting •t here? ReJorm in North America, nol dsewltere. that particular marriage or engagement. I R11bbl Zw«in: l'm telling-you that's the Would this lead to a problem In which a c:hlld think her marriage broke up as a result. logic: of it all. Certainly it happens to Jewish was rec:ogn1zcd through Che patrilineal des Rabbi Shapiro: But the point is; with con· fath1ers who bring their children up as Jews, version· with gillin {Jewish bills divorce) c:enl, but perhaps went somcwbcrc else - of to lhe exclusion of all ocher religiou.s England, South America, Auslralia - 11td which is a problem a.hundred and some odd back.grounds. So, how do you say to them years old, I don't think you have any quali a Reform rabbi there would say, "l'm SOfTY, the children aren't Jewish? What are they if we don't recognize tltis7" tative difference here. The antagonism has they're not Jewish? Lutherans? They been there. I happen to be one of the more Rabbi Shapiro: That's possible, even in wou1ldn'l know a Lutheran -chu rch if they this country. There are Reform rabbis in this traditional Reform rabbis. in the country. saw one. country who will not accept Jews of Jewish And l encounter it every l>it as. much as Amd then we have Jewish mothers who everyone else does. fathers and non-Jewish mothers because as have, Christmas trees, or you have a Jewish Rabbi Foster: I really believe that the issue Reform rabbis we are all free to follow our mother who doesn't bring her klds 10 shut. conscience on any. resolution of the CCAR. of patrilineal descent can be easily resolved. Thes.e are Jewish children? I will even say So, yes, it's certainly possible. The vast ma in the hands of the Orthodox rabbis with that a person who doesn't raise their child simple conversion of infants. That's impor· jority of rabbis overseas will honor this Jewish doesn'l have a Jewish child . I'm althouglrtlftfrnayno(practlce it tlictilselves. -iarit: Tlrat"am ·be done. Thert's no qu~11 ready to say that too, T don't care if they about that. But the point is, any rabbi at any point is have two Jewish parents. free to disregard this resolution entirely. It's Rabbi Raymond Zwerin UN: Tbm your definition of Jew ili solely a matter of whether he or she believes it to based on commitment and consdousoess? be a matter of consciousness. R~ymond TEMPLE SINAI Rilbbl Zwerln: Yes, a conscious commit· Rabbi Rose: Lei's say that a Reform rab Rabbi Zwerin, ment - a positive affirmation. A person bi converts a pers.on who falls in love with [born of a Jewish mother or father) w'ho is an Orthodox Jew. I am thinking of a case 1JN interviewers: RABBI Hrr r EI GOIDBERG, LARRY HANI9N 30 y,ears old and grew up in a Methodist of one of my congregants. Actually it wa.s church, and has never set foot in a syna her mother who converted. The daughter was gogue, can never say "I am a Jew" until he IJN: Did you vote on the <;;cAR palrilineal ty. When the entire Jewish system was sort born and raised in our congregation. When or she has taken on a long and arduous resolution? . or rigidified - locked in - matrilineal was it came to marriage, Lhe rabbi said, "You're courne of study, until they really understand Rabbi Zweria: J didn't vole. I abstained. nece.ssary. oot a Jew." That's an.insult, from our point what it means to be a Jew, in this society and IJN: Can you explain why? MatrilineaJ became an answer to a or view, an intolerant attitude. If the Or in t.hc past and in the future. And then after Rabbi Zwerin: No, I really can't. Basical problem. thodox rabbi would have said, "Well, you're a cenai~ period of lime, and he has learned ly, I imagine lab.stained because I didn't like But the same conditions do not adhere in a Jew, buc for our purposes, we would like what Judaism is all about, then there comes the political nature of the event. the 20th century. We are not, thank G-d, a you to go to 1mikveh," or some1hing like a point when he can say "J am a Jew." IJN: Meaning lbe vole? second class people; we arc no longer locked that. then I would have felt better. IJN: Would you eocounige someone like that R•bbl Zweri.n: Yes. Somehow or another · into one particular area; wc are not con fin· But these people blotted out her mother's to convert? For eumplt, if this person dis the idea of the democratic proce.ss involving ed by governments and therefore things conversion, a whole lifetime of that child be· covered he really had a Jewish mother or a those people who were there, an~ not those have changed. And matril:incal descent docs ing raised in the synagogue, being confirm male1rnal grandmother . . . people who were not there, bothered me. The not work any longer. ed - she was very active in the religious Ra,bbl Zwttin: Even if a guy had a Jewish Reform principle is not that democracy is Let me ask a question - why is it impor school - and she was heartbroken. mother. I would require h.im to convect, ab· what works, anyway, It may be the Conser tant to have a criteria that a Jew i.s one born That was a consequence of a lack of sen solutcly, if he had not been raised as a Jew. vative principle, but it's not the Reform prin· either or a Jewish mother or a Jewish father? sitivity, and so the sense of Kial Yjsrod goes UN: Why did lite community program lnnk ciple. Ba.sically, in Reform Judaism, every Understand that patrilineal descent does not deeper. ll's a matter of the clashing<>f these down? institutional philosophies and the victims are person does what be or she thinks is cor~ct say a father alone is the progenator of the Jews out there. At this point in our or appropriate. There is no concept of cath a person's Jewishness. Patrilineal descent Rair,bJ Zwerin: It cenainly did nol break down because of the Reform rabbis. It was history I do think that there should be some olic Israel (with a small c), as (Conservative says that also the father has legitimate claims Rabbi Goldberger, speaking for all of the kind of meeting of the mind.s, a give and take founder Solomon) Schecter might have said to the descent and status of a Jewish child. other Orthodox rabbis, who said - "Conver on the pan of both sides or the movements. it. So, therefore, 1 didn't think it was ap You see, the reason .that Halachah did in· sion i1; a part of the sociology of life and there If the Orthodox remain intransigent, it will propriate to vote on whether we were going sist on matrilineal descent is because in the should be some way not to grease the .skids never happen. The biggest argument in the to make de jure what was already de facto. Middle Ages, a Jewish women could never so much; the fact that there is is Refotm movement• agaill5'l compromise is UN: You mean. you don't dllalc t.beretbould marry a non-Jewish man and vice.versa. a class be votes blndln& Reform rabbis? Thererore, while a Jewish woman could have almost an cncoura1emenr - tllere is a nttd that the Orthodox wiJJ never give an inch. · to ce>1ol down the process; we want mitted themselves to) kabbalas mitzvahs - accepting the mi1zvos, or what they stand Orthodox Rabbis for. IJN: Before this lnslitule or Board o[ Con Rabbi Yaakov Hopfer, ZERA · A BRAH~ version was set up, would you have accepted the converts from lhe Traditional rabbis? Rabl)i Arthur Fine, ZERA ISRAEL Rabbi Hopfer: In each situation, you've got to look at the convert himself and if it Rabbi Yisroel Popack, LUBAVlTCH OF COLORApo merits for him or her 10 be considered a convert.' Rabbi Fine: So the ceremony was correct. interviewers: MIRIAM GOLDBERG, :DORIS. SKY, but the whole thing is: was the kavvanah, lhe UN intent, there? RABBl· HIILEL GOLDBERG, LARRY HANKIN l am surprised that 1he Denver rabbis even got such an agreement. I never heard of a rabbinical council in any city that reached IJN: Are you members of the Denver Rab that happened during the Middle Ages - an agreement with the three branches there. binical Council? If not, why not? women were raped - this is just blatantly I have not seen this before. They never got Rabbi Fine: My reasons for not belong false. Matrilineal was written in the Mishnah together on reasons of Halachah because ing are solely personal. It has nothing to do that was c.dited close to 2000 years ago. and they could nor. The only ti me I've seen lhat with Halachah or anything thatlthey have the Talmud derives it from the Bible; so try in some form was with the Jewish Welfare done. I agree with having a council, especial ing to pull the wool over people's eyes - not Board and the chaplaincy. An~ 1hat's not Rabbi Arthur Fine ly in the areas of social action - Soviet knowing, they obviously haven't studied - really over the HaJachah. the right sources. At this point, most of the Jewry, anti-Semitism, Israel, anything that this is j ust a travesty. You see~ what concerns me is something non-Jews do not want to accept more affects the Jewish people as a whole. Nobody If you want to say, we don't believe in else. rAny such mutual agreement over con burdens. That's the reaJity. in the world knows better than we Jews that matriJin~ - that's fine, but all of a sud version) is still subject to change ·from the IJN: Wiih the Russians, are you assuming we are not monolithk, but for the world, we den lo try and convince people that this is outset. Once a new resolution is passed by that they are Jewish because they tell you so? speak as one voice. My reasons for not something that rabbis have insituted a cou tbe various rabbinical assemblies, that could Rabbi Popack: We can tell if there is acer belonging are personal in nature and I'd ple of years ago out of necessity, and that change the whole thing. tain amount of heritage that they speak of. rather not talk about it. 1 today we live in a different society, and that IJN: Do you understand why Denver's rab To a certain extent. after getting friendly Rabbi Hopfer: I'm not part of the Coun it's not necessary anymore - it's just faJse, bis wanted lo have 11 joinl conversion pro- with families, you begin to realize who's cil either. It's not personal, it's a principle. not the way to convince people to do some gram in the first palc:e? 1 who. Obviously as Jews we are brothers and we thing. Rabbi H opfer: Because .it was causing IJN: Are 1here cases where they really aren't stand for many things that are compatible, If they want to have a different Halachah Jewish halachically and they didn't realize but there are many things that l just can't - and by the way they don't believe in dissension. They were saying, " I don't recognize your conversion., and it therefore it themselves because of their lack or agree with. Halachab - if they want to act and live in becomes personal, and so we must do knowledge? . Many times there is a stance taken by the a different way, everybody has the privilege something so everybody recognize. That Rabbi Popaclc: Right. They didn't realize, Council itself that I don't feel I can be a part of doing that, but don't try and pull things will was the cause of that. but then fortunately Rabbi Sirota (a Russian of. over on people. I think it is a travesty. speaking assistant to Rabbi Popack), after lJN: Is lhere any issue on ideology where Another thing that I think is very impor Just let me say this. When I was asked meeting them several times, can pick it up. you, as Orthodox rabbis, would agree or tant: people must know that there is a dif before to go into particulars as to why J He learns about their families and where they ference - let them decide - obviously it's didn't want to be a member of the Denver consider making concessions with the Re- form rabbinate? · come from and so on. their choice - but I think people have got Rabbinical Council, let's just take this ex IJN: Do they then go lhrough strictly a ritual Rabbi Fine: On matters of divorce, to know that there is a difference between ample tight here. conversion, or do they go through the whole kashruth, conversion, they would have to an Orthodox, Conservative and Reform The rabbis never had a right to get into education process as well? come to us. Because there is nothing wrong rabbi. something like this (joint conversion pro Rabbi Popaclc: They are not interested in with them leaning to the rrghl. IJN: Your feelings about not joining the gram). What they did was - now I wasn't conversion. They just accept it as it is at this Denver Rabbinical Council come from be. a rabbi here in Denver and L wasn't involved IJN: So you said that they would accom modate, bul there is no w9y or you accom point. ing an Orthodox rabbi? at that time, but let me kind gf tell you what Rabbi Hopfer: The question is, what modating them? Rabbi Hopfer: Correct. they got into. , would you do? Rabbi Popack: First of all, I'm not a One, the TraditionaJ rabbis - as they calJ Rabbi Fine: No. Once you jump out of the Rabbi Popaclc: We wouJd encourage them pulpit rabbi. My major activity is education themselves - were not recognizing the con circle of Halachah, you ... to go through the halachlc ritual part of iL and outreach. I think that, in addition to Rabbi Hopfer: Let me just say one thing. versions of the Reform rabbis, and obviously IJN: We've spoken of how the evangelical what Rabbi Hopfer said, which l totally that caused a split. So they Wanted to do You know historically what it meant when movement has open a~ms Jo con,,erts. Are agree with, the work that 1 do and the things something - a conversion tbac everybody 1 a·Jew·marricd a goy. Obviously this person ·welew"s'reaching out·.:_ is this offensive by I'm involved with are not really connected was ostracized, shunned from the communi would recognize. So there was a com halachk standards? . with my being involved with that particular ty. Today, because it•s happening in such in promise. The compromise was that the Rabbi Hopfer: You've read the numbers Council anyway. Reform rabbis were going to let the Tradi creased numbers - we live in such a liberal of intermarried couples in the Allied study. IJN: May I clarify some terminology? They tional rabbis take care of aJI the ceremonial society - it kind of rubs off on you. There have been others in the last couple of used to ~Y only Orthodox, Conservative a.nd aspects, so the conversion would be recogniz I just had this call the other day. He didn't years who have been interested in reaching Reform. Now, we have the word ''Tradi ed by everybody. This was the c~mpromise. know about this patrilineal issue. A man out to these couples - to make them feel called me up and asked me if I would marry tional,.. which Is what BMH, Beth Joseph, Had I been there at the time, let me just more comfortable. But sometimes - you and the Alliance use. Do you still regard this tell you what I would have said. It never him. He didn' t know I was an Orthodox rab feel bad - but sometimes you've got to be as Orthodox? Whal is it? would happen. This concept of conversion bi. Obviously he just looked in the phone very severe. Rabbi Fine: It depends where you come is that somebody feels a desire and dedica book. It turned out that he is marrying a lt's not that we' re not interested in people. from. People from the East would not calJ tion to become a Jew and to whaL.Judaism non-Jewish girl and I say I'm an Orthodox The last thing we can be accused of is not BMH, Beth Joseph, or the Alliance Or stands for, and therefore wants to convert rabbi and l can't do it. l started talking to being interested in our brothers and sisters. thodox. The minute you have the mixed from being a Christian, a Mos,em, or from him and said, "Don't you realize what But there's somerhing you have to realize. seating, they would not call it Orthodox. But no religion whatsovever. What we were hav you're doing? Your children will not be We're not going to try to convert them. It's the rabbis who are there - they are doing ing was people who were coming not because Jewish." And he said, "I never thought very highly unlikely that eventually we'll what they can - every person has got to of a burning desire .:__ we understand and ap· about that until now." After talking to bim come to the situation that either one of the for a half-hour, he promised he would come make that decision ~ they are Orthodox and predate the beauty and we want to become spouses - the one who is not Jewish - will - they will not accept the word Conservative. part of the Jewish people - that had nothing over and spend a Shabbos. He will see maybe come and feel and be imbued with the spirit In the East people would call it right-wing whatsoever to do with it. I'm not saying there there. is something to Judaism. of Judaism. I'm not saying that it can't hap Conservative, but they came up with the term weren't such people - there are. And they're He just thought his children would be just pen. It has happened in certain cases. but TraditionaJ for the Middle WesL Which very, very beautiful people, and we should as Jewish as he is, and it's very necessary for normally what will happen is that it will not people to realize that throughout history, this means it reaJly isn't affiliated with the Con look up to them - they're beautiful people. happen. · child is considered to be a goy. He's a goy servative movement, and yet it's not quite But on the whole, if you take a look at So what's happening is we're trying to Orthodox. They are not affiliated .with the numbers, it would show that between 90 and and that's it. reach out to make them feeJ more comfor IJN: We are aware 1hat many Russians come United Synagogues of America !Conser 95 pereent came solely because it was a cou table. So there's nothing to stop a young cou from the Georgian area and are not know vative], they ate affiliated with the Union of ple, and one of the spouses was Jewish; and ple from intermarrying when they know they American Orthodox 'congregations, but in often what happened after they walked out ledgeable. There m•Y have been intermar can be part of the community. And, al practice they are nol Orthodox. of these courses was that they forgot riages in the family. How do you hAndle this? though, I say again it hurts, because he's our lJN: So, lhe-;e are no shadings or Orthodox everything. Do you have a poliey? brother and she's our sister, you hate to sort Rabbi Pop11clc: First, the young men and - either you are or you aren't Orthodox? You take a look and see what happens to of throw them to the dogs, ii hurts, every Rabbi Fine: ,No, l am not saying that these supposed converts - it was reaJly a -women who have come to us to have a chup time I think about it, every time I deal. with either. There is a certain base, a level, that farce. The rabbis said you have to go through pah (to get married] got involved with Rus it. It's almost a daily situation. Not the peo-· everybody agrees on. There is a circle with a certain course, you have to pass a certain sian Jews. Very few of them have married pie of my community, per se. but we have a center. Some come a little closer to the test. So, they studied and that was it. Americans. a larger Jewish community who will speak Second, it's very ppssible that a young center, but still they are within the four cubits I.JN: Didn'1 th~ work with the rabbis? to them to make them comfortable: "Let Russian man wouJd like to marry an Ameri or Halachah. Once you jump out of the cir Rabbi Hopfer: That's just the point. They them feel comfortable right now." I can't cle, then you are no longer in there. At least, worked very little with the rabbis. Now that can. and this person did not go through the do that. that's the way l feel. there was an institute, every rabbi would say proper conversion. Or ii would be a situa IJN: When • Russian couple comes and Rabbi Hopfer: I dislike very much the use that he cannot convert on his own, but it has tion where the father would be Jewish and they're not knowledgable do you try to reach of the word Orthodox. I would much rather to go through the institute. So what hap the mother would not be - it would lead to use, ••a person who adheres to the HaJa pened was the foUowing! they bad differenl a tremendous amount of assimilation and I out and - not make conversion easier - but chah." If a person does not adhere to classes, such as those taught by Reform rab would try to stop that. encounge It? Rabbi Pop11ck: Even though there is the , Halachah, I would not consider hlm an Or bis, about Reform Judaism. By far, the ma JJN: lllidn'I mean an American and a Rus. thodox Jew. no matter who the rabbi is. A jority went through the Re"form classes. lt's slan. I mean if a Russian couple escaped and concept of outreach, bringing every in dividual, Russian or American, closer to Yid man can adhere to the HaJachah, and be a not ~ause the potentiaJ converts had one partner or the other wasn't Jewish. dishkeit, we have to base ourselves on prin rabbi in a Reform, or Conservative or studied the three branches - if that's what Rabbi Popack: There are only a few that Reconstructionist shul. Just because the rab you want to call them - and decided that we know of. · ciples of Torah. We can't say because we want to brin,g somebody closer to Yid bi happens to be Orthodox in his own per this was most fitting for them, but. obvious JJN: How do you handle ii? sonal life - .that doesn;t mean it's an Or ly they were demanding·the. least and "they Rabbi Popack: We are very open with dishket, that we should break all the prin thodox shul. might as well get it over with. This is the them and honest. If the father says that he cipl~ of Torah. would say what the Reform movement lJN: Is there any historical basis, what proof. has a child and would like to give him a 1 soever, for palrillneality? ' . · ln my line of thinking - l want to be care religious education, we would tell them very is doing now is just.ifyjng what has been go R•bbi Hopfer: (Reform rabbis have said ful about this - baJachicaJJy I would not openly that since your wife•is a non-Jew, ing.on all along. There's so much intermar of the definition) of a Jew as having been consider them to be'Jews. l don't care who there is need for you to know that the child, riage and assimilation that we're going to born to a Jewish mother - that this 'fas converted them or took them to the miltveh. at thia point, ls not Jewish. If he wants con- justify it somehow or we're going .to lose our something forced on us because of things They would not be called (people who com- - version, then we will send that individual to P1eue see Pqe 9 December 2, 1983 PetrlllnNI Descent •nd Conversion Chanukeh Edition - lntermountain Jewish News Section C - Page 9 mcmbcr!i or wharcver - which obviously makes a person Jewish. In 01hcr words. if isn't the Torah 11uin1 or view, c~pecially since you have sm.1cbody that's involvcd with any it's Hashem, G-d, 1hat no1 only gave us 1hc organization or any Temple. if the csi.encc orah, bul crea1ed us and specified who is i.s there, then we coni.idcr them Jewish. Com a Jew, and you can't brcal.. G-d's word. mi1men1 and cssem:e t.lon'1 alway~ go to· I ''ould say 1ha1 you have 10 look at it gcther; but if you have 1he essence, ii'~ ob· from chat perspective. viously imf)ortant to have the commitment. We believe very strongly lhal it is lhesc 100. prindplcs 1ha1 have kept us 1oge1her all these &xond point. I think we all agree that pco· years. The Et11ics or tlic Fathers says 1ha1 pie don't wam to brca~ away from the even though you have 10 love every creation, Jewish people and Jewish heritage, bul I ii says you have to bring 1hem closer to think that the thing that's lacking today is Torah. In oLher words, you don't lake Torah an expression that the Talmud uses, tinoJ.os and change ii - you bring I hem closer 10 she-nisbu, "children that were raised in cap what it is. tivity." It's no faull of 1neir own (lha1 they It has to be done in a way where, as Rab weren't raised JewishlyJ in most cases. I bi Hopfer poin1cd out, the Code of Jewish think this is important thal at thi5 point in Law specifies how conversion lakes place. our history. outreach is very important 10 We don't create 1he proce$s. The ToraJ1 reach 1he young ncoplc, especially rhosc who creates the process. are going off to college - they gee involved Rabbi llopfu; Let me just clarify one with non-Jewish girls or boys - we have to thing. These intermarriages have 10 be deal! Rabbi Visroel Pop•ck stress lO them I he importance of what Juda· Rabbi Y•iJ1kov Hopfer with on an individual basis. You can't have Therefore the Jewish communUy has no ism is. So in addition to bringing up the most importanl consideration. a general consensus lhal this is lhe way we choice but to make these inkrmarrie.d children Jewishly, the reality as that when Numbers are·important in a way: it is im are going 10 deal with it. Every couple is dif couples comfortable within lhe communil)'. they become older and they arc on their own, portant f1or us to have children; the greater, ferent and therefore has LO be dealt with on Thett's no alternative ... How do you res there is a need for them lo gel invovled in Lhe be1tc1r il is. But the notion tha1 if you an individual basis. pond to that? some Jewish activity. And that's why I stress don't ha•11e greater number!I, there's not a In 1he normal approach to a convert, we Rabbi Fine: Tbe fact that the social prob· organized Jewi~h activicies for that age group future for the Jewish people. that's not so. have lo dissuade 1hem from becoming lem exists, we recognize. and we do so with in particular. Historicallly, throughout the Middle Ages, or Jewish, bul in these cases where there has a great deal of terror. This is a concern that IJN: Does the survival or the Jt?Wish people even previously, we never had as many Jews been a legal ma.rriage, we have 10 handle it we have, but for you to say, "there's no depc1td OD lbe aumbcr or Jews in the world? as there are today. You hear about lhe a different way. The way to deal with tha1 alternative, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em," Rabbi Pop•ck: In terms of the Torah, 1he Golden Era of Spain, in 1hc great city or Cor· is obviously - if you use 1he ritual - it no, that's not an allcrnative. Jews were always a minority and will aJways doba - how many Jews do you think lhcy sounds like all you have to do is dunk lh"E:m Rabbi Hopfer: The crux of the problem be a minority. And I rhink the Torah's poin1 had thent? If they had forty· or fifty· or in the mikveh and make a circumcisi.on if it's is that we want our children to feel happy of view is that there is quantity and qualily. sixty-lho1Jsand Jews. that was considered an a male. that they're Jewish and what it means and Torah views quality as very important. And enormous Jewish community. If there's hope thar the one that's a Gen obviously to ask them not to intermarry. The that's why the Jews were always smaller in All ovc:.r 1he globe, we never had as many tile will come around, and possibly become solution, obviously we arc not doing enough number even though we had the bl~ing Jews as we have today. But they kept imbued wirh 1he spirit of Judaism, in this for our children: we are not living the way from the days of Abraham that we would be togechcr and the reason for 1ha1 is that they situation where they arc already living we should, and therefore we arc not teaching as numcrou.s as 1he stars in lhe heavens. The had large families. There were pogrom!. and togerher, then we've got to deal wilh that our children how lo Jive. It has to do wich reaJity is, the same Torali says that we are this is something that we're just not used lo situation. They are already li ving together. education, with teaching the children. a minority group. Atem m 'at mi·kot f1a but it's something that happcned daily. Jews L:e1 us lry and help the one who is Jewish Let me make it clear. The Reform move· amim. Because we are a small percentage, were killed and obviously that is why we live wilh a man or woman who is also menl - that is the cause of the problem. The this is more of a reason to hold onto some· didn't exiisl in such great numbers. But what Jewish. We have to see wha1 we can do. commitment lo Judaism, 10 what Judaism thing U1a1 will give us this quality. The kepi u~ as a people has nothing 10 do with Bur to say we will make it easy for you, stands for - lhe mitzvos, which remind us Talmudic expres~ion for lhis quality is that our numbers: there was a bond 1ha1 kept us tha1 we just can't do. daily whal it means to be a Jew - when all even though we arc like one sheep amongst together. It was our Torah. our mitzvos. we UN: Ir anyone in your coniregacJon.s uid, of that is taken away from us. the Torah and 70 wolves, we are conncc1ed w11h the were doing 1hings; we had the feeling and 1his "I want to marry a girl or a boy who is a mitzvos ... we've got to save them; they Almighty who is infinite rhrough His Torah. is what k.cpt us together. Reform Jew," would you perform the are the core or the problem. I must be very In other words - I'll sum it up - there JJN: You say you are nor worried that lt1e ceremony? open and frank. have been greater nations lhat have ceased Jew will survive, but are you concerned Rabbi Popack: Lei me explain. A Jew is IJN; Are you saying there is no such thing to exist. The Jews are a minority group and about lh1e qualit}' of lht Jew? a Jew because you are bom from a Jewish as a commuted Reform Jew7 C.n't a per through all the pressures and pogroms we Rabbi Hopfer: If we don't teach our mother. At thi.s point the Reform movmient son be so Involved with Judaism as a ~rorm still are here. So what is the secret? The children - if we don't teach ourselves and has abolished. if 1 may use that teTm.a get, Jew that be may be more committed than a answer is, according 10 1he traditional our children - lhc proper way to live as a Jewish divorce. So. therefore, ir this child m.11rginal person who belonits to a Tradi .sources, it is the way lhc Jews have main Jews. the quality of Judaim1 will obviou.~ly is bom from a mother who previously was lionat s)'nagogue? tained Lhcir Yiddishkei1 anJ binded them be in danger. married and never had a divorce . . . Rabbi Hopfer. I just want to make lhis selves with G-d. They have the Jewish spark Rabbi lflne: Of course there will always be Rabbi Hopfer: If the family has been a very, very clear. I'm not saying how I feel in them. Jewish people. The question is, how? We can member of a Reform congregation for a long to my brother and sister, the Reform Jew in IJN: You are pying, then, it's rhe qualily, do ii in two ways: With the assimilation, lime, you've got to check and see. Temple Emanuel, the Reeonstructionist, or not the quantll)•? 1ha1 's the one thing that 1hrca1cns the Jewish Rabbi Popack: If there wasn't a non a Jew who doesn't affiliate with any religion lbbbi Pop•ck: It's the qualit.y. people, not minimizing the horror or halachic con\'ersion, there would be no whatsoever - they were just born to a IJN: Would I be correct in inferring, Chen, Auschwimi. If the anti-Semites would leave problem. Jewish mother. A Jew, no mailer what he that tr la.rgc numbers or Jewish pe.ople In the us alone, we would disappear all by lbbbi Fine: Why is 1his happening? Where is Clr where he is. the reeling chat he's my United Stal.es Intermarry and assimilate and ourselves. Although there will alwa)'S be thaJ did we fail? The Orthodox didn't reach the brother or my sister is always lhcre. I'm not perhaps lose lheir ide.nlily aUogether, you small minority. young people many years ago. The Conser· talking about any individual person. wiU not necessarily be upscl from the poinl Whal bothers me is, the Almighty will nol vative and Reform rook over. There was You' re right. There are people {traditional or the survival or lhe Jewish people, provided let us disappear. How will He not let us more moderation and more moderation, and Jews) who do things because they are just that the Jews who remain arc "qu.allty"? disappear? Every time something like they were caught up in a terrific sweep. And used to doing them and it docsn 't mean much Rabbi Popack: I think that we ought to assimila1 Ion gets out of hand. something like now everybody wants to save everybody else to them. That's good also, listen they're still remember thal it's true that throughou1 the H itler, Khomeneni, always comes around. and we don't know which way to tum. doing what they're supposed to do and that's history or lhc Jews !here have always been Look al the situation in pre-War Ger And 1hcy come to us and we say we can't, important. those who have decided to break away from many. Jews were more accepted around 1he We'd like to but we can't. So what arc you There arc other people who are very ded· their heritage, but al the same lime, because Kaiser a11d then all of a sudden everybody going 10 do? icated lo Judaism. They want to be Jewish of the strength of the Jewish people, they slancd n:alizing they were Jews. So, yes, we Rabbi Popack: You know that even but sometimes they don'l understand whal have encouraged many not to. In other are not disappearing. Bui my G·d, who lhough there are differences of opinion bet it is. If the Torah tells us that this is the way words, if you say that we're going Lo lose a wanes 10 chink of a pogrom? Who wanis to ween whar we and Reform say is HaJachah. 10 live the life of a Jew - by performing certain amounl, I think we can't just stand think of something like that? there was never a disagreement on what the mitzvos - this is the way a dedica.ted and com back and say, •'Whatever happens hap Now, what is our obligation? This is what essence of a Jew was. In other words, even mitted Jew has to act. This person who is pens." I think we should try and encourage I 1hink you were leading 10. Rabbi Hopfer. though there's a difference of, say, whether always working for Jewish causes, giving Jews to marry Jews . . . The qualhy will affec1 the quaniity. The you should or should not put on 1efillin, a tzedalcah, that's beautiful - he's a very, very IJN: For lhc purpose or saving lht Jewish more we reach the Jews. I he more assimila Jew is always a Jew. You may say that Shab beautiful person - but he's not Jiving lire people JH!r SC, or for the purpose Of .saving lion will slow down. Once the assimilation bas is imponant to you or is not important the way he's supposed to. When you don't the individual Jews? stops, the less chance or something like this to you. but we are all Jewish. Bui now we teach your children the way 10 live as a Jew Rabbi Popack: Well, both - for saving happening. have reached a situation where the Reform - J'm talking about the commandments of 1he individual, and for keeping the milzvah Othern don't see it that way. They sec says someone is Jewish who the OrLhodox the Torah - we arc endangering lhc life of of "you shall love your neighbor as assimilat ion as our survival . . . says ii; not. This leads to a situuion where the Jews. And chis is what hislOJY has shown yourself." So. by saving Lhe individual we R11bbi Hopfer: We won't convince a whole the essence is at stake. to be true. arc concerned with the Jewish nation as a leadership, a whole group to change its ways. IJN: Vou havt? alluded many time.s lb21 in Take a look at what happens in Israel. whole. As Jews we can't say that we should h is our obligation 10 open our hearts. to Orlhodoxy, Che rituals, namely immersion There is very liule intermarriage with the redefine our whole religion of thousands of open our homes to every Jewish person. I and circumcision, do not represe.nt the Colafi Arabs. years because of certain thfogs that are har> just wish that chc people in their congrega ty of a proper conversion. Whal IJJ it besides There was .a survey taken among seniors pening today. tf we arc saying char Torah is tions - in whatever congregation they are, lhe rituals lh•t define a proper conversion? in high school. They were asked if they something infinite - since it is something or, if it's no congregation whatsoever - you Rabbi Fine: Kabbalas Hamitzvos (accep would rather be Jewish or Gentile. Forty· that came from the Almighty - we, as crea· know it's very, very difficuh for one in tance of the commandments). eight percent said i r I hey were living in Israel lions, can't turn the Creator around. The dividual, one rabbi to go to everybody's IJN: Bui what d06 lhat man? Does that they would rather be Jewish, but living in Lhc Creator tells the creations what to do. That's home - but we can say, "Come, our com: mun that Ir you have one without the other Diaspora, they would rather be Gentile, the feeling of the Orthodox. Otherwise, what munity is open: try to give yourself lhat op - Che rilual without the acceptance or mitz because it's easier to be goyim. happens is, lhat tomorrow we will do dif· portunity to learn there is somelhing else to vos, or vice-versa - lhc conversion is Take a look at what that says. The com ferenL things, the next day there will be no Judaism 1han what you have been taughl. rendered Invalid? mitment to being a Jew just isn't there. It consistency and we will jusL change Torah. Give yourself that option. Look at history lbbbi f"iM: You need investigation. has to be taught. That's just not the proper Rabbi Hopfer: The question is the fu1ure and see where it's been, where Jews have liv Withou1 investigation. it is parve. There is way LO teach them. You have to live daily of lhe Jewish people. Is there going lo be a ed for g(:nerations. Maybe there's something nothing there. the lire of a Jew - and then, there's a Jewish people? Some reports say that even· more to Judaism than you have been UN: How do yoa respond to lbe following danger. We live in lhat type of society. 1 pray tuaUy we just won't exist any more. No, I'm taught.'• Our hearts, our homes, our shuts slalcmcnt: Condilions in the US being what about my children everyday that that doesn't not worried about it. This is something we arc open 10 you - please come. Otey are, Jewish Young people arc going to happen to them... · :~ •1 were promised; it is one of our basic beliefs. Rabbf Popack.: I'll just comment by say go out and meet non.Jews, and marry them Rabbi Pdpadc: I think it's imponant to But again, the question is, if your brother ing lhat it seems to me that there are one or lnevllably and not out ot any active se.nst or stress that if a person is committed and is do or sister is drowning, and something has lo 1wo reasons why there can't be lhis dl1loy1Uy lo the Jewish community. ing things Jewishly, there is that essence that be done fonhcm, then obviously that is the Please see Page 12 P•ge 10 - Section C lntermountaln Jewish News - Cr..nukah Edition P8trlltnMI Detc.nt •nd Conversion December 2, 1983 meet the convert prior co the milc vcll. They happened not to be pan of the &t Din that Reconstructiotiist Rabbi day and they were assjgned that month to the mikveh. They mighc not have met the per Rabbi Steven Kaye, COLORADO JEWISH RECONSfRUCTIONJSr son. There was a grcac deal of time on their part ror people lhey did not sponsor. The FEDERATION numbers were more Reform than they were or the Trawtional rabbis. IJN interviewers: MIRIAM GOLDBERG, RABBI HILLEL UN: Then you do find some validity to tbe TrtditJoual rabbis' d•lms that ptth1ps GOIDBERG, 1.ARRY HANKIN, Reform convcrls were not prepared adequately. IJN: Do lbr RttonslruccJonlsta have a policy to Judaism, you're not a halachic Jew. That R•bbl Kaye: No, I didn't say that. 1 said oa p11riliMallty7 opens up the door for all ki.nds or communj it was a draining or lime. If one is going to RUbl "111-r: In 1968 lhe Rcconstructionist. ty. and there has to be give and take on all be Individualistic with lhe person who is Rabbinical Association and the Federation kinds of levels. Then, again, that's why a coming through, the rabbis did not have Chat of Rea>nsLrUccionist Congregations and Rcconstructionisc is not a halachic Jew, so kind of cime. So. I'm not ''ery supporcive of Havurot - che national coordinating body . I don't think there has co be give-and-cake 1he Traditional rabbis in this stance. - adopted a policy o r patrilineal descent. there. IJN: In other words, you're saying that If It didn't hit the press because we are such JJN: Give-and-take between whom7 Ibey had had two hours to sil wllh each per a small movement. Rabbi Kayt: Give-and-take between dif son whose Immersion Ibey wllnessed - The reasoning behind paLrilincali1y is 1hac ferent factions within che Jewish communi· wblc:h would have laken up to, say, 20 hours Rcconstructionism is g rounded in ty. We'll go lnco that when you talk about tbal day, or 80 bours four days in a row, or egalicarianism. ff WC arc going lO say I hat the conversion issue. I clearly separacc the wbtevcr - lbal ir, In lheory th1t could h9ve lherc is to be complete equalilty between men patrilincal and 1hc conversion issue as two been arranged, you l.hink t~ Tnidilio.nal ... rabbis would not have puffed out, or at least and women. how can you say chat a child different lhings. Rabbi Steven Kaye born to a Jewish father and a non-Jewish UN: Let.'s ruirt 011 conversion. What Is the on tb1t basis! Aec:onstruc:tlonlst approach or •ttilude were not really interested in the convening; Rabbi Kayr: I don't think that thcir state mother is not Jewish, ir the child is raised they weren't fulfilling the ten sleps I the joint solcty as a Jew? Rcconstructionism says that toward conversion? ment Lhal they were mikveh dunkcrs would Rabbi Ka.ye: It has very open doors to conversion board's ten Jewish com· have been valid because then there would a child is Jewish if the child is raised solely mitments}. They wdn'l like the patrilincal as a Jew and given a Jewish education. those persons who want to convert. have been conlacl with them. They would Reconstructionism does not recommend con· descent issue. have known who 1he pe.rsoo was. They said IJN: Att )'OU boand by this? lJN: ls lbtre any vaticfit)' la lbcse points'l version for the purpose or marriage. lhat six monlhs later. they would be walk Rabbi IUp: Personally? Similar to the Rabbi Kayr: I think ~ ha.. c to go back Reform movement, none of che policy deci However. if a person is committed lo ing down the street and a pason would say. Judaism and marriage is an clement, they arc to the responding letter from Rabbis Foster, "You're the one who converted me," and sions of 1he Association arc binding upon the Shapiro. Zwcrin, and Stone. These rabbis welcomed. they would not even remember chis in· rabbinate. There is no censure, no wrist responded by saying that we should continue slapping, bu1 it is a posilion which I personal In terms or the process. because dividual. And there l agree because in my at· in this program; there's room for com titudc in performing any life cycle function ly agree with. Reconstructionism doesn't require Its rabbis promise on all parts; that the numbers were I try to find time - significant time - co IJN: Do you know how many people this to do X, Y. and l strongly recommend z. not too high; that the patrilincal dcsccnc spend with that person or family because I bavt afftcted ~ntt it "1IS adopted? ritual circumsion and mikveh. ••Y could be dealt with. view myself as a person who cares about Han you wen II pul Into prac.tkt a gnat In terms of the & t Din. l'\'C been an td, The other poinc Rabbi Wagner made in his other human beings in the Jewish community deal? a witness. o n both a Traditional and a letter wa~ in the area or the outreach pro and chat's very difficult in terms or time. Rabbi Kaye: In the congregation where f Rcconstructionisl &t Din, and Chere arc very gram by UAHC in Denver. The third letter That's where I'm sympachelic with them - was serving in New Jersey, lhcre was a family different kinds of tones. I feel 1hat when a was a letter by Rabbi Laderman who strongly - Jewish father and non-Jewish molher - person comes before a Bet Din in the in lerms of demands on time. But I don'I recommended that the program should con agree with their position. they had raised their children solely Jewish. Rcconstructionist community, ic is made up tinue. There is a need for Kial Yisroel and We discussed that there would be problems of both mm and women - again, because I chink that we' re caught in a very uncom community spirit. fortable position, as follows: We, meanins if she wanted co get married by Conservative we feel that women can be and have a right UN: So. Jtow do you ualaate all of tllis? or Tradirional rabbis and that she might to be a witness - Che person has gone •nyonc who belongs to any congregation lhbbi KaJ·e: What cook place at the arier che end of 1his joinr conversion clasi. want to consider going to mikveh. As a through enough study and the concern is meeting was interesting. Reconstrucrionist I feel responsible for mak whac is this person's Judaism. lc's nor so - when the new program comes out (the lJN: Whit meeting a~ you talkin& 1boul? Reconstructionist community will join with ing people a'>'arc of the Halachah. but not much or a probing. •·can you \ell me every Rabbi Kaye: The Rabbinical Council for saying that this is necessarily what you thing you know about Torah1" The ques the Reform in doing the conversion class meeting of August 8 or 9 hcld in Boulder, toaether) - people who go through that ha\·e 10 do. I guess 1hi~ is what the Reform tions might be, ''What were &0mc or Che where there was lo be a long healthy discus· course and they want to be married by one movement has been doing for years, loo. The po5itive Jewish experiences you•ve had?" sion on the topic of chi.s progam. Rabbi child has up uncil 1he age of I 3 to renounce " What an: you going to do when you have o r the Traditional rabbis, the Traditional Goldberger, Laking off his hal as the Presi rabbi wiU not recogoiie chat conversion Judaism ir he was con~erted as an infant. By children and ther1e's Christmas? At your In dent of the Rabbinical Council, represented standing up for Bat or Bat Miizvah. rhc child law's house?" Those kinds of questions. I think we've divided lhc community. the TradicionaJ rabbis. He went through the In many ways Che converts go through the makes a public acctptancc of his Jewish practical questions as well. That's the points in the leucrs. Rabbi Foster respond same exact process; they'll study the same idenricy. process. ed by stating, "You tell U$ where to come things; they may go 1hrough mikveh, but the Then we strongly recommend a public IJN: What has bffn lhe history of a down the road." If you wa n1 to ask the people who are signing the conversion docu ceremony before the congregation wich a " patrilincal Jew" who Ms gro,.-n up and 11 UAHC not co do their outreach program, ment arc not halachically obserVant Jews. statemem accepting Judaism as well as some Illas come time for marria1te. or the person line. tr you want us to beef-up some of the Therefore, that person can never be married kind of donation to rzedakah - some wor· wants lo go to lsnel. 11-httt lhtrt mi&ht be requirements, line. You tell us where you by one or the other (Traditional) rabbis. thy cause. We feel that the people 'hould a problem? want u~ to meet you along the road. What I think will take pla~e is that we'll begin to fulfill one of the most lmportan1 Rabbi Kaye: In terms of fsrael. I'm not And the response from the Traditional have people who will call one o f che Tradi mitzvot. familiar with any problems or statistics. In rabbis . .. tional rabbis and say, ' ' Rabbi, 1. want to con terms of marriage, again, I haven't heard of IJN: When did you come to Dcnver'l UN: Did he also say lhat Ibey would not vert," and they' ll ask some questions. They anything because all of Olli rabbis would per Rabbi Kaye: August I, 1983. apply patrlline:al in Denver? will say we will ask you to follow more obser form a marriage lfchat person is already seen IJN: Tiatn. the joint conversion pro~nm Rabbi KaJ't': Different people who were at vances. Shabbat. kashruch. X. Y and Z, and as Jewish. The same with the Re form rabbis. broke up just • few days after tha17 the meeting had different recollections at that the person will say, " I'm not interested," IJN: You say IMt •II the way back in 1968. Rdbl Ka1-e: Yes. point. I lend to remember him saying thac pick up the phone, call one of the Reform the Rec:onstractlonlsts have itone by UN: Wert )'OU at H)' or llto~ mttcingsT there was no need for the CCA R lo come out rabbis, find ouc that it might be easier p1trilincal as well as m11rilinul. Nnw. rou Rdbi Ka,.r: Yes. Rabbi Goldberger. as with tha1 position bccau~ it had been the because there isn't rhat kind of requirement also said th•t you know lhat !here's a num president or the Rabbinical Council. had practict of Reform Judaism basically since or personal observance or mit2'VOl. They'll ber of fKtions In tbe Jewish c:ommunily Chai kept me informed after I made the decision its inception. So. I tend to remember him go through the conversion class, then go don' t. So what Is your view of lbe lmpllca· in May to take the position. He shared with saying that. back to that congregation to be married and lions of that ckdsio• ttpnling Jewish unity? me the various correspondence between the But the Tradicional rabbis responded by they won'1 be able to. Rdbl Ka1·e: Because I take the position rabbis back and forth. saying chat a mist.alee was made six years ago I think that's when the community will sec that if one is raised solely as a Jew, and in UN: Since May, tht.n, you' ve bttn aware or by entering into this program; we should the first pressures. Beause I don•t think the no other rdigion. one is Jewish. I think it this? have not entered into lhis program at all. We members of the congregation wiU tolerate is not so much my problem as the problem Rabbi Kaye: Correct. have areas in which we can work together that for a long period of cimc. I think that's or the other movement~. J don't view that IJN: As tllc prosnm stood. before tbe and areas where ~ can't work together - when poltical issues will come in again. in temu of unity. I think che breach of uni breakdown, would y011 have p1rtidpaltd and areas of religious observance and life is o ne IJN: Do you believe that tllttt Is HJ vallcll· cy rests on the part of the resl or Lhe encour11cd your potential c:onvtrts to go of those areas. We made a miscake, and lhat ty to tlle view thal ha•ln& a co~ersion pro communi1y. U1rou1h itf was lhc end of the discussion. gnim In uisle.nc:e whkb Is fairly easy to 10 IJN: If matrtlinul ltu been gohrg on Ior a Rabbi Ka1~: Absolutely. l would like to For me as a newcomer. I was disappoin1ed tbrou1h dlscourqu youag people from (ew tb01lUAd yHrs, Ind now you dtaage sec the program continue . As a Rcc;onstruc because I expected a healthy discussion. Sttklng mates of Ille Jewisll faith? you.r mind oft U, doa't you Uliak you laavc tionist , I believe in Klal Yurod - in total I think the person who went up in my per R.. bbl Kaye: If they c:unvcn, I don't view to justify &Ital for Jnbb aaJly? community. One ot the things that auracted sonal esteem that day was Steve l:oster, it as an intermarriage. R•bbi ICayt: Well, then you have to get me in part to Denver was that this was the because Steve Foster has the most to gain by UN: Bue doesn't ll happtti muy times tut into other areas. How can you i;ay that you only city doing this joint conversion pro the UAHC outreach program and by every only bKau.sc two people are getting married can count women In miriyan? How can you gram. h was a real opportunity for com thing else. It could mean lots of feathers in - one of them ls not Jewlsb - and only justify havina mixed seating in a congrega munity rabbis to work together in the area his ca.p because it's a program with national because of prusure rrom one or the seu of tion? How can you justify driving to con or religion - not just what can we do about attention. He could only go from here, bur partnlt, and not from die mates themsdves, aregations on Shabbac7 So it's not just this political issues - but more 1.he religious he was really saying, honestly, tetr me where do one of lbe persons go tJuouah a coavu· issue. sphere. This was an opportunjty to do some 10 go and I'll meet you. sloa procas? Can't the oistence of a con· UN: a.t lltey' rc rally dlfrermt. ama•t they? of lhat. lam personally upset by the breakup UN: la yoar 'ricw was tlltft any daneut but nnio• program tltea be constnled as an tn· Beauc wbeo you' re de.Una wltb the sort of the program. that weal beyond ldeoloa"'· tbal couJd bt courqement to lntumarn? of 01lqs you just mentioned, you arc talk· e:h1raderind as • personality coamct? R•bbl Ka-,e: lf the rabbi who is doing lhe Ing aboat dcpea or·~ 10 Jewish law. UN: Cu 7011 pve 1oar HRlllDtat of wby RabbJ Kaye: I think there are censioru be intake of the spouse docs not take Lhe time Bal !ten yoa an dealla& wit• a question of die jolat toannloa prosram broke dowo? lwccn some of the individuals bur I don'c with the couple, then yes. wbo Is • Jew Co •ttrt wUb. Isn't U.at a Rabbi Karr. l understand that the Tradi think ic came throuJh at that time. AL other But from what I understand has taken qulilatiYdy dlflernt problml? tional rabbis stated they could no lonaa con Limes, I've heard of it beini displayed. place under the present program there is in R.abbJ Ka,-~ I'm not so sure it is. I've tinue in the Ptoaram because they felt th.at With this issue. again. the Traditional ral> dividual time with the sponsoring rabbis as come to the point wbeu I used to think it the candidates who c:oine through from the bb fdt lhey were - I'll use the term - well as group time without lhc other teachers. was, but now I think that you're either. Reform were DOl mcetina the standltrds they mikveb duders, and they had a difficult lf lhc rabbi is not picking up on that and stil.1 bound by the Halachah or you'r~ not. would like. They felt that the numbers were time wich that. continues with the conversion, then I have Once we live in a liberal community, and too biJh; they felt It was "grea.slna the skjd" This is the point where ( do give the Tradi· problems with it. • you're not halacruc in your tocal approach to intermarriage. "The people who converted tional rabbis some credit. Ofttn they did not Please• Pase U D~ember 2, .1983 fa1rlllneal Descent and Conversion Chanukah Edition - lntermountaln Jewish .News $ectlon C - P,age•H R.abbis Emeritus continuing that relationship. bi Friedman to ask for help for "moos Chit Obviously there have been some changes tim" during the depression days. in the points of view of some of the.consti I recognize that there arc considerable out tuent groups. The recent statement of the side pressures working on some of our col CCAR about patrilineal descent has migbti leagues. The trend toward polarization is ly disturbed~ great many. I presume that on significant in l 983. We have all kinds or the reform si d~ there h·as been considerable justifications for withdrawing from too close amount or misgiving over the growing in an environment with those who love a dif tolerance and withdrawal on the part of ferent formulation of their Jewish feelings. many of the orthodox. In my judgement it would be a tragic mis It is my feeling however that ground rules take to allow these pressures and these sen have not changed, regardless of whether timents to destroy what we have been able there have been positions and principles and to create in our own community. You all proposals adopted which seem radically dif remember the ramo'us passage in Rosh Ha ferent. From the very beginning we recog Shanah 25 b in commenting on Deuteron nized that it was not the function of any one omy 17:9 which says that one should go to of the constituent groups to seek to impose the judge who will be living in his time. When its theology, its outlook on Hala.cha, its stan the obvious question was raised, "well, of dards on the others. Otherwise we could course, how could one go to a judge not liv never have initiated any kind or cooperation. ing in his time," the answer was "Jepbt.ha Reform has its very definite attitudes about in his generation is like Samuel in his genera ·Rabbi Earl S. Stone, Rabbi Manuel Laderm.an, tion.•• I take that to be a lesson Lo us to do which the orthodox have strong resistance. TEMPLE EMANUEL HEBREW EDUCATIONAL Nevertheless, we felt that we are fellow Jews, our own thing, in Denver and not to be participating in a great adventure of promul swayed and persuaded by what others else \ 1JN interviewer: LARRY HANKIN ALLIANCE gating a Jewish consciousness in this new where seem to find more attractive to their Editor's note: Rabbi Manuel Laderman, not American open society, which is so different own political or religious inclinations. IJN: What is your view or palririneal an active member of the Denver Rabbinical from any other previous Jewish experience, It will not do, from my point of view, to descent? was that it was necessary to undertake original proclaim unity on a national scale, to be Council, not involved in meetings con Rabbi Stont': I think. it is a very humane of kinds of efforts, even though they might be associated with all kinds of efforts at bridg cerning che break-up the joint conversion way or meeting a very serious situation in our program. However, on June 18, 1983, he dangerous and pioneering. We on the ortho in$ the areas of division, while at the same own day. Matrilineal descent was originally wrote to members of the Denver Rabbinical dox side were not deterred by the threats of time. on one's home turf, destroying that insiituted by the ancient rabbis because of Council urging the continuance of the con excommunication by some of our more hide which has been built up over a period of a tragic human situation, where because or version program. The following is the text bound confreres. We were ready to gamble years. so many wars and anti-Semilism, women of his /euer. that working together, associating together, In my opinion the effort at comunal con acting together was for the benefit of Kial version is a significant step in the advance were raped, and as a result, men didn't know Dear Colleagues: . Yisroel and for Jewish honor. We certainly ment of a Jewish community. It may weigh who the fathers were. So, at the time. it had Baba Metzia 53 b has the lesson, "He who were opposed to the isolationist position heavily upon some members of our frater a great human signifis;ance. proposes any idea ought Lo be the first to at which so many of our colleagues espoused. nity, and may impose upon them some great But today, we live in a world where there' tempt to carry it out." Since it was my sug is so much intermarriage - and we arc try In our own Denver situation, we have strains of time and effort. This situation may gestion at the annual dinner meeting of the A ing to hold onto as many Jews as possible learned to live and work together in an har very easily change. time may come when Rabbinical Council of Denver that prepared - I think matriJineal has lost its value. monious spirit which has been emulated and there will be a different kind of emphasis or written statements should be provided for the Aciually, Reform rabbis have been doing envied in other communities. Our position impulse towards conversion from other August meeting, I am following the counsel this all through the years. about where weddings may take place, our branches of the community. To judge from or the sages and offering my suggestions. what is happening at the moment, aod there IJN: So, during your active years as a rab readiness to share each other's facilities in There has always been in Jewish practice fore to overthrow a program which has been bi, you did recognize as Jews the children or community educational efforts, our con a recognition that there is a distinct dif built up over a period of time, would be Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers? ference between initiating an idea (L'chat tinued respect for each other publicly, in Rabbi Stone: Or course. All they had to every kind of joint appearance, have brought shortsighted. chila) and facing a situation which is already Finally, it would be my guess that the step do was to be raised at the Temple and be con in existence (B'diyeved). We are in the dignity and self-respect lo the rabbinate in, firmed, Bar Mitz.vahed - they were affirm the community at large. which is being considered, of eliminating this b'diyeved situation: joint effort, will have a serious impact on the ing their Judaism - and we accepted them Some orthodox groups in America are Let me give you one early example: When entire Rabbinrcal Council. It will show to and that was it. now considering or reconsidering affiliations I came to Denver in 1932, I was privileged many people that there is an internal divi IJN: Will this cause a problem in terms of with non-orthodox groups. Some of them are to have both Rabbi William S. Friedman of sion and dissention in our group which no marriage because the Orthodox rabbinate quite determined to dissolve any bonds with Temple Emanuel and Rabbi C. H. Kauvar cosmetic effort at fellowship will overlay. will nol recognize these childrens as Jews? those who do not share their theological of the BMH Congreagation come to the We face a serious crisis. We should be bold Rabbi Stone: No, I don't think it is any position. Alliance to install me. To many of the Jews enough and courageous enough to accept the more a problem than it was before. As long Others or us, particularly in the Rabbinical of Denver this was a first, and it was hailed dangerous with the same kind of courage as Orthodoxy only recogniz.es the mothers, Council of America, have the strong feeling as a new era in collegial fellowship. Jt made that we have shown in previous years. The they are pot going to accept a child unless that once we have entered into an agreement it easier therefore when Rabbi Ginsberg, one ancient admonition of Deuteronomy I: 17 he goes through a formal conversion. and arrangement with non-orthodox rab of the very saintly orthodox rabbis of the "do not be afraid of any man" applies IJN: Were you supportive of the communi· binical and synagogue groups, as we did in Wt,st side was interested in publishing his especially to rabbis who are judges in Israel. ty joint conversion program? the Synagogue Council of America, in the books, for Rabbi Kauvar to endorse and sup Let us face up to that chaUenge today. Rabbi Stone: l certainly was. chaplaincy program of the JWB, in our local port his publi.shing efforts. It made it sim Yours truly, IJN: Were you parl of the original planning board of rabbis, that we are committed to ple for Rabbi Ginsberg and me lo go to Rab- MANUEL LADERMAN when ii was first established? Rsbb.i Stone: Yes. IJN: How do you view the break-up of the program? Docutnents: the Rabbis' letters Rabbi Stone: I think it is a tragic situation. I think'that with the joint conversion pro MEMO TO: My Colleagues of the Denver · "HECHSHE.R '' for Reform conver·sion that there was no way to do so, and that, in gram we stood out ahead of every Jewish Rabbiniul Council candidates. fact, it was the Reform Rabbinate, therefore, cOIQSJlunity in the world - not the country, FROM: Stanley M. Wagner 3. The political and spiritual pressure ap which was responsible for changing the status but the world - in uniting the Jewish DATE: June 17, 1983 plied. within Denver and by our national quo of our Communal Conversion process. religious factions and in bringing many more I have been asked to prepare a memoran associations, to desist from participating in 3. The C.C.A.R. decision on Patralineality converts into what they considered tp be the dum pertaining to the Communal Conver the Communal Conversion process was which, once again, sharply defined the proper traditional form of conversion. sion process and the reasons, as I see them, significant and serious. Reform perception of "Jewish identity", UN; Do you lhink lhe compromises were for its discontinuance. Since I will not be at Nevertheless, we might have been able to which differs so greatly from the traditional reasonable - fair all lhe way around? The Rabbinical Council's August meeting, persist in participation in the process because perspective, made the relationship between Rabbi Stone: I think so. I definitely do. J feel it necessary to comply with this request. we regarded i:he KlaJ Yisrael side of the equa Reform and Traditional R<1bbis in matters Here. we are using converts to go through The establishment of the Communal Con tion as welghty enough just to balance the of Jewish identity, extremely difficult. And a conversion and become a Jew, according version process was seen as a victory for scales. • even when suggestions were made by the to their standards. And then they turn compromise and Kial Yisrael unity. It must However, three new developments within Denver Reform Rabbinate concerning the around and cut it out. be clear, however, that rhere was always an the Reform movement tipped the scale the possibility of modifying the CCAR "defini And tbe converts were doing it. I would uneasiness about this program, for the other way. tion'' for Denver, once again, it became a say that 98 percent of the ones that I work following reasons. l. Schindler's announcement of "Project matter of "choice" and not "mandate." In ed with went to mikveh, which was never 1. The compromises made by Reform and Outreach" signaled a new, direction for the other words, those for whom "community done before. And now, by this one silly ac Traditional Rabbis were really uneven. The Reform movement which. in whatever way recognition" of "Jewish identity" was im tion, they are denying converts the oppor Traditional Rabbis· were mandated to offici you can explain it, will undoubtedly result portant would be encouraged to convert, tunity of convening according to Jewish law. ate at the Conversion of persons, most of in accelerating the trend of conversion to otherwise, the Reform definition of " who is First they gave them the opportunity to do whom, they would never otherwise convert Judaism. This means that certainly we will a Jew" would stand. 1 so, and now all of a sudden, they are deny because they fell so far below traditional see an even greater flow of converts in the For these reasons, and others which I am ing it. standards or conversions. Reform Rabbis, Denver area. certain my colleagues could supply, the con UN: You've been very much part or the unl on the other hand, were only required to en 2. The Denver Reform Rabbinate ap tinuation of our Communal Conversion ly or lhe Denver rabbinate through the years-. courage their candidates to convert through proved a national Reform movements' pro process becomes untenable. ... in fact, a good example of it. ls the unity stlll MlKVEH-HATAFAH-MlLAH. And, al posal to have Denver become an experi Furthermore, this development, I would there? though Reform Rabbis admittedly fulfilled mental community for the preparation of a hope, will not otherwise undermine the Rabbi Stone: I think (rumors about hard their part of the bargain admirably, the text and audio visual material for a course felicitous relationships we have established feelings and fighting) have go_tten around the "out" which they had made their com in "Basic Judaism." We were told, emphat and will not prevent.us from a full measure community and this, I'm very upset about. promise quite different, qualitatively, than ically that the Denver Reform Rabbinate was of cooperation in areas, of communal life I think it's being overstated, ~ng blown up the compromise of the Traditional going to engage in this effort, with the use ' where this is possible. beyond the trut~. Jhc Denver. .Rabbinical Rabbinate. or. Reform staffing_, regardless.of whether or Council still me°'5, and we are still good 2. Traditional Rabbis felt overwhelmed by not the Traditional Rabbinate. was going to B~d and appro.-ed by Rabbis Daniel friends personally. :rhe~e·s still, a good the sheer numbers of Reform candidates for participate.i°iit. What remain~l;c?r . us to 4o Gold~rger ud Jerry Upsitz. . feeling. conversion. We continua.IJy felt spirituitlly was to discuss how to crcat.c a program under Is there anything else you would like to say? drained by a process which appeared as those circum¢ulces with which we could feet Rabbi Stone: I would love to sec the Tradi though we were simply providin& a comfortable. "{be concJusio~ I caine to w~ Pirate .ee Pqe 12 tional rabbi.s change their minds. P•g• t2 - S~tlon C lntermounteln Jewlth Newt - Chanukah Edition Patrlllntal Detcent and Conversion December 2, 1983 Rllbbl Upsltz: Essentially, HaJacbah tells Traditional Rabbis us to make an effort to tell convens to uy Documents: the Rabbis' letters Co11tlaued from Page J to be comfortable in their own religion. However, after a few meetings if we see that July 8, 1983 conversion and therefore had an "out," and 1 cannot accept any of the converts coming they're really serious, then we will slart the TO: Members of the De.nnr Rabblnic:al that ' 1heir compromise was quite different 1hrough the Reform because obviously they process. The whole time that they are going Council · qualitatively from lhe compromise of the will not have mikveb; they will nol. have through the process we tell them that there ntOM: Rllbbis Earl Slone, Richard Shapiro, traditional rabbinate." We reject tha1 notion hatafat dam. So essentially they arc conver is no guarantee. Raymond Zwerin, William Cohen, Herbt?rl most vociferously and ask our traditional ting only to Reform Judaism. Rose, Steven Foster colleagues to remember 1ha1 our compromise Rabbi Goldbuger: It 's always proba Should any of our children in the future with ritual is just as important as any com tionary. After the initial discouragement, we desire to marry them, they will have to go We have prepared the following sratement promise made by our 1raditfonal rabbis. through a traditional conversion process in try the classes for a while; we'll see how that as a means or runhering our discussion on addition to the Reform. So now, the Reform goes. They don't just go through the class the future of the communal ct>nversion proc 3) We hope that our tradi1ional colleagues conversions only reflect one-thfrd of the to convert . ess that has worked so well these past number w111 choose to continue 10 work with us in community. They are only one-third Jewish IJN: You call the probabtlonary period a of years in our community: this important area. If that is the case, we - in terms of the Reform understanding of long time. Is that a Wttk7 A ye.ar? What is The Reform rabbis of Denver are also ask for a very serious discussion on the area Judaism. dull exactly? pained by the abruptness with which our of i;nutual respect for our own philosophical, Rabbi Wagner. Now I have to specify Rabbi Wagnur Every one is an individual process seems to have concluded and each , theological commitments. We.recognize the here. This may be viewed by the Reform case and every rabbi makes the determina of us, individually and togelher, have importance of maintaining the integrity of Jewish community as regarding the Reform tion. ls there a support system? Js there nol wrestled with the ques1ion of how best to our traditional colleagues. but we insist upon Jew as a second-class citizen. What we· have a support system? There are so many factors serve the needs o r the people in Denver. it for ourselves as well. We believe lhal over to emphasize here is that the Traditional com It is evident to us at Lhe outset that, re lhe past months there has been a great deal munity has a religious imperative to love all IJN: Whal does ii work oul to? A year? ..• gardless of how or through whose auspices, o f undercutting and of "backbiting" about Jews. We cannot accept a process of conver Rabbi GoldHrg~r: It varies. lf a person the conversion process in Denver will con us as Reform rabbis. Wt regret that in some sion that is contrary to our halachic perspec never had a Christian religion it might be tinue. It is important to note that as long as cases we; too. have responded in kind. We tive, but that doesn't mean that we stop lov three months. for someone else it might be Jews live in a secular world, Jews and non hope that if 1his proposal is accepted by the ing Reform Jews, or that we regard Reform a year or more. Jews will meet and fall in love. lt is our col total Rabbinical Council. 1hen we could Jews as second-class citizens. Rabbi Wagner: I would reruse to set any ective decision as to how best to bring them begin the process of reclaiming the total That is erroneous. time parameters. into 1he fold of Jewish Life. IL seems to us respect that we have had for one another I don't regard a Jew who offers me a non lJN: Can we talk about what tills ls goiag that regardless of how we might lament the over the years and I hereby emerge from this 1 koshcr meal to eat - and I say I'm sorry l to mean to the communlly? People have social condition or Jews in America, 1hc process much healthier and much stronger. can't eat your meal -1 don'1 reject that per always said thal Denver ls fortunate In that phenomenon of conversion will continue for We hope that our traditional colleagues son as a Jew or I don't stop loving him as Orthodox and Reform rabbis have sat many decades to come. lt is our hope lha1 will view this decision as one in which we arc a Jew. I simply say I can't accept your meal, together, that we have bad 1 nther unUied we will always provide the very best oppor seeking " shalom bayit'' as opposed to the and we're saying to the Reform communi silwition here. Maybe It's not like that so tunity for those who seek out Jewish life. implementation of any program from the ty. "We cannot accept your conversions." much any more. You can nilly together for With this as a starting point. we would pro outside which migh1 precipitate the fracture We don't stop loving Reform Jews as J ews. Soviet Jews, lsratl, aad the llliags that we pose the foUowing; of our community. In lhc mood of concilia all agree oa, but are you rally gohag to be tion, we hope that we can discuss these UN: Reform Jews an nol second-class I) Since our community conversion proc able to work together afler yoa 've bad some points, together with the points made by dliuns, bul people converted by Reform ess has worked so well for all of us in the hard fffling1? Rabbi Wagner in his memo of June 17, ac J ews are not Jewish. Is tbat ii? past, wc ur.se its continuance. We recognize our meeting in Boulder on August 17. Rabbi W•gnu: Just as a non-kosher meal Rabbi GoJdberpr: We haven't had any that prior to the spring or 1983' when a pro I have also taken lhe liberty of including served by a Reform J~w is non-kosher. We hard feelings. We have found that our posal was brought by the UA HC to Denver, with this mailing a copy of the ad that was can't stop that. original rears of working together on our community conversion process worked placed in the New York Times by Merkaz IJN: A semanrks question: This term ideological grounds were self-fulfilling pro well for us. Lt is true that from time to time, Horabonim - United Orthodox Rabbinate "Tradltlonal" translates into Hebrew as phecies. We may have hurt feelings for a there were uncomfonable feelings about the - which was an open letter to American M uoratl, which in Israel connotes Conser while because this is a serious matter. But sheer numbers of people who looked at Reform Jews on the issue of patrilineal des vative Judaism. Are you all ~mfortablt with now in the Denver Rabbinical Council we Judaism as a religious alternative. But Lhe cent. Tbi.s lcllcr has been responded to quite this term "Tradlllonal"? Is It different rrom have pledged to intensiry efforts - Israel process work.ed well nonetheless. We hope succinctly and beautifully by Ray Zwerin. a "Orthodox"? Is II the same? ls it a Study Tour. Community High School, that we can return to the months prior to the copy of whose letter is enclosed. We believe euphemistic: lerm; a substantive term? Whal media communications, Soviet Jewry, spring of 1983 and continue Lo grow in our i.~ ii? Denver Institute of Adult Jewish Studies. that Lhis too should be a part of our discus communal conversion process. We recognize sion at our August meeting. Rabbi GoldMrger. You know there arc These arc the reasons we need a synagogue that this means lhal the UAHC. however degrees of Orthodolly. In the Midwest this council in Denver desperately for Orthodox.. well-intended we believe them 10 be. will not is called Traditional w1th a callilal T . Traditional, Conservative, ReconsLruc be a par1 of the Denver community conver IJN: Is tbl.s a gradation or Orthodoxy? tionist, Reform as a non-religious body so sion process at this time. Editor's notr: Tl1e follo wing record or the R•bbJ Goldberger: It is a gradaLion of Or we can voice our con~ms for Allied, Israel Traditional rabbis' 'Yithdrawal from tlie joint thodoxy, rig hr . Bonds, to speak out into the community on 2) We as Reform rabbis need to clarify for conversion program is from the minutes of IJN: Where do you sland regArding lhe Or· issues of race, poverty, the homeless. Just ourselves and for the Denver Rabbinical the Denver Rabbinical Council meeting of thodox lradition or distouraging or turning because th.is one thing broke up, it doesn't Council as a whole how ii is that this frac Aug. 17, 1983. approved at the meeting of away a potential convert? mean it will hinder our erforts for unity. turing of our process has occurred. We rec Oct. 5, 1983. ognize that we have be.en accused or being Responding on behaff or the traditional you' re saying tbal Jn a marriage where lllett short-sighted and obstinalc. However. we would remind our oolleagues that in any rabbis (sec attached correspondence). Rab Reconstructionist is a conversioa done wllh inleftSive supervi bi Goldberger Slated that they no longer wish sion on the puts of the rabbis, II .ls aol aa situalion in which there is compromise, namely the establishment of our communi· to participate in the community proce.ss. He Rabbi h1terma:rriage~ stated rhat they were concerned with the Continued from Page 10 But llle praul question ls really asking ty conversion program as it has come to be, none of us can have our own philosophies number of individuals par1icipating in the But what I think happens is two things: something else-. process and wish to decrease it; he also stated Whenever you bave • Jew who ls marry· completely met. Rabbi Wagner has stared in One is that Lhe rabbis require the spouse or his J une 17 memo, to which Rabbis Gold that they believe tha1 they erred in establish potential spouse (of the convert) to go Ing someone who Is not Jewish 10 scare witb, ing the program originally because of the wha1 chat means Is, there's one other Jew out berger and Lipsitz were signalors, that there through the course. So there's a bond there was more giving on the part of rraditional compromises involved. l.n their opinion con that unites the couple. Two, statistically, we Chere who bas one les.s polenli•I Jewish parc version belongs in the area of those things ner to mate with, sucb that If you have, say, rabbis than there was on 1he part o f the see that people who conven to Judaism orten Reform rabbis. We would respectfully sub which each of 1be rabbis does according to are more observant- I use small "o" there 100 people lo lbe community and SO of them his own beliefs and practices. He stated that marry non.Jews who convert, Chen the other mit that in the process of e.~tablishing our instead of capital "o" - or Judaism and " 10 Commitments Tor Conversion," there they will honor their commitment to any in thaL creates tension within the household, SO don't ban a poteatial 50 Jewlsll partners. dividuals who entered the c.lass with the ex So, if you han less Jewish pllfattS to marry was a tremendous amount of give on the part many times because one wants to light Shab of Refonn rabbis. Refonn theology makes pcciation that the community process was bat candles and one wants to go to synagogue because t.he olber o•es have DUlrricd aon available. Jews wlto bave converted, it's muds less like it djfficult to mak.e demands upon any in or whatever and the born-Jewish partner is ly tbal those remalnin& SO wlll end up mar dividual in the area of ritual. Yet, each of During the discussion that followed. the not as smsitive t.o that because they never felt rying Jews In aay fashion, with or wiCbout us has, we believe, not only encouraged peo traditional rabbis stated that they would no thal strongly about Judaism or had a formal conversion. In that sense, thrn, isn't a ple to undergo the traditional form or con longer take converts wbo bad studied with Jewish education. So, the course unites and numerically strong conversion program a version - mikvah, hatafat dam brit·milah non-traditional rabbis to the mikveh, nor brings on Jewish identity at times. contribution to Intermarriage? - but we have been meticulous in insuring would they any longer take part in marriages Different people are throwing out statistics R•bbi Kaye: Not in the least because J that those who havl! converted to Judaism involving Reform gerim. Rabbis Foster and about what happens after a divorce. They are think the only way you can avoid that is by have observed Lhose " 10 Commitments for Shapiro cxprcsed a concern that this decision saying that a person who converted solely for building the ghetto walls agafo. As long as Conversion." We believe that we are judged was reached without full and equal discus the purpose of marriage then renounces our children Live in an open pluralistic socif!ly very harshly when the June 17 memo states sion of all members of the Council; i.e.• that Judaism and goes bade to Christianity. J and they go off to college, or they go Lo work that the Reform rabbis were only to "en~ it was a unilateral decision of the traditional haven't sttn those statistics nor do I believe and they have relationships with those who courage" candidates to undergo Halachic rabbis. them. arc not Jewish. relationships are going to IJN: \'es, tbal's a sepanate issue. But bere, form. cumstances, what's happening now is that all of the reasons? ll's so easy and conve say that mostly those arc younger people who Orthodox Rabbis the Jewish nation is being divided. People nient to say, "Well we can change and do grew up in the country and they really never Continued from Page9 who are leaders - they never have had this whatever we want" because of their position. saw different shades of Judaism and they in-depth study of Talmud, of midrash, of ln other words. what I want to say is this: certainly are commitled. And sometimes they C:Onnection. philosophy - it just really wasn't ever there. We're living in a society where 1 don't think feel it out of conviction. They feel that what One is, I guess, certain individuals have And under those circumstances. the reason they are doing is proper, thal is the way to cenain beliefs, but in other cases. the peo all the leaders necessarily are fighting they speak se strong.ly is because that's their philosophically. I think it's a fight of who live as a Jew and teach other people because ple speak. not necessarily from belief, but job. it is the only way that Judaism will exist. This because it's easier for them. more conve is going to be victorious at Limes. When If you really wanuo know the truth, I am is the way they understand it. nient; sometimes, it's a feeling of being vic you're dealing with that kind of a feeling, With Orthodox rabbis sometimes also, going to say that the majority of youth are no matter what you say intellectually, no torious - and that could divide the Jewish sometimes it's how they make their captives to a certain e.xtenc. When you are matter how you express emotionally, if that nation because you know what politics can livelihood and it's not out or a very true con really do. I don' t know whether everybody speaking about truth and phiJosopy, how person's position - hjs income - is depen many of them really delve into what it is? viction. And sometimes it's a matter of who is speaking in tbe name of Judaism real· dent upon it, he is not going to change. I honor, especially if one's is a bigger temple ly knows all the, historical points of view, all I'm not talking about social work, rin nol think when you deal with money and honor, talking about helping someone else physical than another's, but it certainly - I wane to the belief~, and any time they might speak that sometimes overweighs issues. make it very clear - l know some of them because it's benefic.iat for them. Not because ly. l'm talking about truth and philosophy. Rabbi Hopfer: Let me jun &ay lhis. l know personally, and they are very committed. But How many of them studied ten years of that Is their historical point of view. there a~e many committed Reform and Con 1 just think they arc missing the point; they J~sh philosophy, for instance? How many When there is the desire to be victorious, servative rabbis. Committed because they are not seeing lhe right. And that's something anything goes. And under those cir· of them studied theCode of Jewish Law and feel what they are doing is right. And J would that eventually we 'll change. l'l AR l-- 1 6-89 THU 3 : 28 p . 0 1 r A J\ L t. A U ~ H t::. t: ·I .. .. (,IJ CLAL. T('): ,,.., N11lor.it Je11.·hh Ccl'\lef for lumll'\I Al'\J luJc~~lp . FROM: ___.b_ ."--a.,,,... 4-"'le.'-"'"'-413~n .....~"-''--l ~)..__().,______(cl Al) •n $co\'tnlll Al't l\Ul (C11t. J31d St.) .. .:,.., \'01\, New York t())'.:11 ; · Number of pages · · ) ./ · · to foliow: --f-1- . Comments . or .special ins true t ions: . ;••., ~ · •.. ' . ..... I f there are· any problems with this transmission: Call: 212- 601 - 7600 .... ,. F'ax: 212-601-3712' t'i •• I I H I •' - 1 •-· ; • . • I I i I I :.· : - .... . ", ~ PRELIMINARY DRA FT THE DENVER CONVERSION PROC ESS - THE HALAKHIC VALIDATION BY Rabbi Stanley M. Wagner The purpose of this paper is to review t he communal conversion procedure established by the Denver Rabbinical Counc il in 1978, to provide the halakhic basis tor Orthodox Rabbinic participation in this program and to establish the halakhic bases for the valida- tion of the 176 conversions performed under those circumstances and conditions. Some of the tacts pertaining to our procedure ought to be reviewed: 1. A ~abb ini c Conversion Board (not a Beth Din) was established consistin9 of Orthodox, Conservative ~nd Reform Rabbis for the purpose of establishing an educational program tor all prospective candidates a nd for determining their sincerity, upon completion of the program, as to their belief in God, their-abandonment of all prior Christian convictions, their intention to become part of J -2- the MILAR and T'VI LAH, does Ra mbaoi spe cify that a Be th Din of three performs the HODAAH [Ibid., halakha 6}. The TUR'S state- ment V'CHOL INYANAV BAYN L·HODEEO HAMITZVOT L'KABLAM, ETC., seems to refer to the KABALAT HAMITZVOT at the time of the T'VILAH ~hich requires a Beth Din of three (see Bach, s.v. V'CHOLJ. Even the reference to the HODAAH & KABBALAH as T'CHILAT OIN [Ibid.] does ~~,.~ft .ti.;.,.,,,,,.,,,,., not imply a time sequence, but rath~ the P'RISHAH states the KABBALAT HAMITZVOT if not expressed during the day and before a Beth Din of three is M'AKAYV because SHEHU GUF HADAVAR V'HATCHALATO. Also the M'CHABER refers to the Beth Din of three only at the final HODl\AH & KABALAH and not at the initial HODAAH Crbid., S'IF ~· As to J, t' S statement in S'IF 3,v·cHOL INYANAY HAGER, etc. must take place before a Beth Din, this also refers to the time of T'VILAH since the KABALAT HAMITZVOT is M'AKEVET ~ • .. ... I and not initiall,l. (see the SHACH, ,.v. OMRIM LO on the YOREH OEAH, Ibid., S'IF 3} also note Rashi in Yeva110t 47 b where he states D'HASHTA AL Y'DAY T'VILAH HU NICHNAS LICHLAL GERUT HILKACH B'SHAAT T'VILAT Mt1zVAH TZARICH L'KABAYL ALAV OL MITZVOT) 2. No convert was passed through if there ~as an outright rejec tion of a sin9le mitzvah (B'chorot 30b; Rambam1Isuray ,,iyah 14,8). J. The prospective convert, after completing the educational program (described below) and examination by the Conversion Board, was turned over to an Orthodox Beth Din, and at the Mikvah: a) It was ascertained again that the conversion ~as being undertaken for the love of Judaism and the Jewish people, and not for another TOELET althou9h many poskim le9itimate a convert I ·1 A F~ - l ..:. - :::: ·::;. T. H U 3 : z. 0 F' • C1 4 -3- wh o converted for an ulterior mo tive B'DEAVAD. (TUR YOREH 0EAH 268; YOREH DEAH 268, 12; RAMBAM, Ibid., HALACHA 17. See the D'RISHA on the TUR, Ibid., and SHACH on YOREH DEAH, Ibid., where the BET YOSEF introduces the concept in Gerut of HAKOL L'FEE R'UT HADAYAN based on the Tosephot in Yevamot l09b. s.v. RAAH, and on 24b, s.v. LO. This concept becomes an important basis, as shall later be explained, for all decisions which we reached. That one may accept even a convert BIZMAN HAZEH who comes with an "ulterior motive" is accepted by many poskim such as David Hoffman in his M'LAMED L'HOIL (YOREH DEAH, 83, based on a MA.HARAM SHIX, EVBN HAZER 37 and YOREH DEAH 249); YAAKOV EMDEN (Responsa TZUR YAAKOV 27); CHAYIM OZER (ACHIEZER, CHELEK 3, 15); SHLOMO KLUGER (Responsa, TUV TAAM VADA'AT 230). b) There was MILAH or HATAFAR and T1 VILAH all before a Beth Din of Orthodox Jews only, including one of the Orthodox Rabbis. (that a Beth Din does not require for conversion three who are R'U¥IN LADUN even L'CHATCHILAH has the approval,among others, of Moshe Feinstein {IGROT MOSHE, YOREH DEAH 109) who permits "S'TAM ANASHIM". Many others approve if at least one of the Beth Din is a Talmud Chacham for the purpose of HOOAAT HAMITZVOT. c) There was a HODA.AT HAMITZVOT and K}.BBALAT HAMITZVOT in a very general fashion, but it was clear that the conversion was L'SHAYM SHAMl\YIM and that there was an acceptance of "the God of Israel and the Torah of Israel ... (What constitutes J It also must be understood that although the point of entry into the conversion program wa s the recommendation of one of the participating Rabbis, including Reform and Conservative, and although Rabbis may have been meeting privately with the conversion candidates they recommended, nevertheless there were ~ official Reform, Conservative or Orthodox conversion candidates. Rather all were participants in a "communal conversion'' process and when they were interviewed by the Orthodox Beth Din and were taken through the MILAH or HATAFAH, T 1 VILAH, HODAAT HAM!TZVOT V'KABAL ATAM they did not become denominationally Reform, Conservative or Orthodox Jews . In other words, candidates who came before the Orthodox Beth Din are not to be likened to prospective converts trained by a Reform or Conservative Rabbi who are asking to be converted ritualistically AL PEE HALAKHAlf by an Orthodox Beth Din who will be automatically embraced by hetel>do~ movements. The communal conversion process was just that -- an entry into the Jewish community characterized by a commitment to the principles of YICHUD and AHAVAT HASHEM, the eradication of any ideological association with ChA.istianity, the traditional perception of Reward and Punishment, and a 9eneral understanding and acceptance of MITZVOT and Torah ideals. The educational program which prepared a candidate for ulti mate acceptance was a 16 session, three hours per session course in which participants studied Jewish history, custom s and cere monies and other aspects of Judaism to prepare them for meaningful praticipation in J ewish life. The ins tructors attempted to select aspects of Jewish life which were universally accepted by -5- all movemen ls such as -- reverence for the Shabbat and Yami" Tovim, AHAVAT TZIY ON , TZEDAKAH U'GEMILUT CHASSADIM. Rabbis rotated during the 16 weeks and exposed the candidates to their own ideol ogies. Three Orthodox Rabbis participated each twic~, and hence, six of the 16 Rabbinic lecturers were devoted to Orthodox ideology and SHMEERAT HAMITZVOT including TAHARAT HAMISHPACHAH. Now, the basic question we must face is the ANAN SAHADAY that a great nwnber of these converts do not observe the mitzvot from the moment they are converted. Do we say that since KABALAT HAMITz VOT is M'Al I .: ,, I will be absorbed into the Jewish community, or if we repel a non- / Jewish husband. There is a clear and present danger that Jewish children will be NITl'ftE'U BAYN HAGOYIM. ~dd to these problems the issue ot GIYUR K'HALAKHAH in the CHOK HASHVOT which can result in the serverin9 of Iarael from a large portion of diaspora Jewry and we have a DOCHEK of enormous ma9nitude, even an AYT LAASOT HA¥FAYRU ~ORATECHA (MISHP'TAY UZIEL, YOREH DEAH 14; EVEN HAZER 181 20) • The principle of R'OT AYNAY HABET DIN, or KFEE HAVANATAYMU also applies here. We have already found the principle stated in the matter of GERUT by the Bet Yosef (see p.3 ). One can see this principle applied in GERUT by many poskim (see, for example, Responsa M'LAMED L'HOIL1 EVEN HAEZER 3 and YOREH OEAH 73; Responsa TUV TAAM VADA.AT 2301 Responsa TZUR YAAXOV 27; Responsa ACHIEZER, 3rd CHELEK, 15). The Orthodox Rabbis of Denver L'FEE R'U~ AY NAYHEM, saw the f o llowing possibilitiess a) We were in a community in which the relationships between the Rabbis of all persuasions were amicable. 0 M AR· - 1 G-89 THU -7- b) The Reform and Conservative Rabbis were willing, for the sake of Jewish communal harmony and unity, to enter those prospective converts who came to them into the communal conversion process requiring MILAK or HATAFAH, T'VILAH and J SHEYOCHLU SHECHUTOT T'MUTOT V1 LO YOCHLU N'VAYLOT,and ~ho expresses such a stronq concern about the loss o! Jews to our fold and even encourages conversions where there is no KIYKUM HAMITZVO~ but at least a conversion L'SHAYM SHAMAYIM, again CO\.~itin9 on that which is MASUR L'AYNAY HADAYANIM (ISID, 18) . We were convinced that not only would such converts be legit- • imate BID'AVAD a~o perfectly clear from Rambam (ISURAY BIYAH 13, 17) where there was absolutely no HODAAT MlTZVOT and, hence, no KABALAT HAMITZVOT (see also RITVA AND NIMUKAY YOSEr on YEVAMOT 4 7b), but that even L 'CHATCHEELAJ4 based on HOR.AV UZIEL 1 S interpre tation of all the sources (as compared to HOR.AV F.EINSTEIN'S p'sa/(, since there are those who hold that a p'sa k which does not cite r 1 H 1, l ._. - :_. •• ~ 1 1 1 1_1 .:.· =:. -~ ~ . . ,_, .....:. -8- sources is really a DAAT YACHID whereas a p'sa~ which cites sources is n2J; to be regarded as a Oaat Yachid) we had si9nif icant halakhic bases for undertaking our program. I wish to review some of the salient points in HOR.AV UZIEL's Responsa which we believe strengthen our case. 1. In the case where a Jew is., already married to a non-Jewish woman he encoura9es her conversion (MITZVAH ALAYHEM L'KORVAN U'LHACH- 11 NEESAM BIVRIT TOR.AT YISRAEL U'LEHOTZEE NEGA HATAAROVET • MISHP'TAY UZIEL I YOREH OEAH 14) based on the Tosephot in Yevamot 24. He . maintains that AYN BO !SUR GAMUR because of the consequences of allowing them to remain intermarried and the impact upon the children. 2. In his Responsum 18, HftRAV UZIEL reminds us of the ISURIN involved in intermarriage (N'SUAY BAT AYL NAYCHAR, HITCHATNUT, B'8ELAT Z'NUT) and the requirement to eave Jews from violation of these serious prohibitions. . 3. Evan where HORA.V uz~EL prohibits the conversion of a GOYAH such as in the case where a ~OHEN intends to marry her he still stresses the need to convert the children to Judaism although they will have a non-Jewish mother (MISHP'TAY UZIEL, EVEN HAEZER 18; so also in Responsum 19). 4. In yet another Responsum (Ibid., 20) his questioner posits the case which most closely relates to those converts who we in Denver converted, to wit, couples married in secular courts, couples simply living together without even a secular marriage license, some of the Jewish "partners" observe some Jews laws J<'STAM YEHUDIM BIZMAN HAZEH, others neglect to fulfill most of the Jewish laws. Yet, there is a desire on the part o! the non-Jewish partner to :?· : ~· c_;:. I • • ,_, :. -9- convert to Judaism and the Jewish partner is anxious for such a conversion . Horav Uziel r esponds L'DINA that GAYR SH EMAL V'TAVAL OH GIYORET SHETAVLAH L'SHA¥M GERUT HARAY HA~M YISRAELIM G'MURIM YIYAD ...... -.-BAYN ...... IM M'KAYMIM..... ,,,.. HA.MITZVOT ...... OH LO. He e mph asizes that the essence of conversion is L'HEEKANES 8IVRIT YlSREAL U'VE'EMUNAT YICHUD HASHEM V'KABALAT MITZVAT TORATO and 1f:er•s of RABALAT MITZVOT it is clear that there is only a HODA.AH of MIKTZAT MITZVOT and he states SHEAYH DORSHIN MIMENU L'KAYAYM HAMITZOVT V'AF LO TZARICH SHEBET DIN YAYD'U SHEY'KAYAYM OTAM. He further CQncludes that AYN TNAI KIYUM HAMITZVOT M'AXAYV ET HAGERUT AtILU L'CHATCHELAH. (It is also interesting to note that according to Rabbi Akiva Eiger one may not teach a non-Jew Torah before he converts [Respon>\Of R'AAiva Ei9er - p"sakim 411 see also 'I'ZEMACH OOVID of Rabbi David Rapaport on Rabbi Akiva Eiger's responsumJ. Others say that some of the mitzvot may be taught 1uch as blessings, prayers and the SHEMA (MINCHAT ELIEZER, 4th CHELEK, 63]. Clearly, then, ~ccording to these poskim, KIYUM HAMITZVOT is not M'AKAYV since these converts are certainly not even aware of the mitzvot.) He also stresses that it is not only MUTAR but that we are M'TZUVEH to convert such persons even if they will not fulfill the commandments . Once we convert them, it is their responsibility, not ours, that they fulfill the coinJnandments. Interestingly too, he is M'DAYAYK in the Tosephot in Yevamot (Ibid.) that in the case of Hillel and Rabbi Chiyah who accepted converts who converted with an ulterior motive, the converts were accepted irntl'l~diately in the knowledge that ultimately their conversion would be L'SHAYM SHAMAYIM even though they might not ultimately fulfill the mitzvot of the Torah. Such was the case during the period of ~in9 David and Solomon when it was prohibited to process converts althou9h 1-· • I_~ · ~ I l ~ ~ I• - l •-· - :_ ••,.. I I l l_I .f.. ; ~· -:_, - 10- there we r e many who converted before a Beth Din of HEDYOTOT (see a lso Ra mbam , ISUR.AY BIYA!i 1 3 ,15) because they converted L' SH AYM SHAMAYIM. 5. Ho rav Uziel conc ludes in this r esponsum (Ibid.) that we should not c lose the doors to converts in this day and age; that we do not want to estrange Jews from our peopl~ (which would be the conse quence of not providing broader opportunities for conversion); that even in the case of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother we must strive to bring the children close to the Jewish people bec~use HARAY MIZERA YISRAEt HAYMAH; and in his summation in his Responsu~ 25 (M!SHP'TAY UZIEL, EVEN HAEZER) he refutes the position of HALITAYNU L'RASHA V'YAMUT since we can find a way through conversion to prevent a person from sinning day after day. For all of the reasons above, and for the more positive reasons mentioned by ChaZ4.l who were affirmative in their attitude towards KABALAT GERIM, including this mitivah in the commandments of AHAVAT HAGER and AHAVAT HASHEM and reminding us of Biblical precedents for receiving converts (see Tosephot, Yevamot 109b, s.v. RA.AH), the Denver Orthodox ~abbinate participated in our communal conversion process. Add, in truth, although we were unhappy that we could not, to be9in with, brin9 these converts to a higher level of mitzvah observance, we and they underatood that the conversion was the be9in nin9 of a process of spiritual qrowth. We were, furthermore, more than satisfied that our converts would consider themselves fully part and parcel of the Jewish community with many of them attaininq a high level of mitzvah observance. Contrary to the press notices, we did not organize a "conversion factory" and our converts were not "phony" . We withdrew from the -11- proce:ss 1iQ.! because we felt that we \..'ere cngaying in a program which did not have halakhic validity but because the Reform law on patrilinea lity placed a cloud over our unified efforts in issues of Jewish status. We appeal to you, therefore, not only to avoie impugning the legitimacy of our converts B'DEAVAD which in our estimation would certainly be contrary to the ROV MINYAN O'BINYAN of Poskim, but to avoid censuring us for our efforts even though we engaged in this procedure without consulting e i ther the RCA Beth Din or its leadership. We acted in good faith LFEE R'RUT AYNAYNU irt what we felt was in full accordance witn the halakhajf. The parti- cipatin9 Orthodox Rabbis received no compensation whatsoever for their involvement, nor was there any communal pressure applied upon us to engage in this process, so that we had absolutely no ulterior motives for our commitment to this procedure. Finally, the iss ue before us is EQ! whether there are yaieh osrim with regard to any or all of the procediJres we followe5. What was attempted here was to demonstrate that our communal conversion process does have a halakhic basis and that, as rabanim musmachlm , we had the rigJi-t, in this case we beli~d the respon sibility, to seek out those kulot of our poskirn which would leqit imize it halakhically. The AYT LAA.SOT actually permits a HAFAYRU TORATECHA , but we telt within the bounds o! Troah although we recognized that we were in a "grey zone•• halaJttt'cally. As to our culpability in this endeavor, we conclude with Rabbi Uziel's citation in reference to judges who follow his guidance, ~v·~u ~CHUM Y'CHAPER AVON . "