Second Session, 39th Parliament

official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Thursday, May 20, 2010 Afternoon Sitting Volume 18, Number 5

the honourable , speaker

ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC

Second Session, 39th Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL

Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations...... Hon. Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Minister of State for the Olympics and ActNow B.C...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Advanced Education and Labour Market Development...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Minister of Agriculture and Lands...... Hon. Steve Thomson Attorney General and Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Children and Family Development and Minister Responsible for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens' Services and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism and the Public Affairs Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Community and Rural Development...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Education and Minister Responsible for Early Learning and Literacy...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources...... Hon. Minister of State for Mining ...... Hon. Minister of Environment...... Hon. Minister of State for Climate Action...... Hon. Minister of Forests and Range and Minister Responsible for the Integrated Land Management Bureau...... Hon. Minister of Health Services...... Hon. Minister of Healthy Living and Sport...... Hon. Minister of Housing and Social Development...... Hon. Minister of Labour...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Small Business, Technology and Economic Development...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Culture and the Arts...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

Leader of the OfficialO pposition...... Carole James Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Claire Trevena Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz Director, Hansard Services...... Jo-Anne Kern Acting Legislative Librarian...... Peter Gourlay Legislative Comptroller...... Dan Arbic ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING

Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Hon. Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Hon. Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Harry Bloy Black, Hon. Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... Cadieux, Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Comox Valley...... Don McRae Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coell, Hon. Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Hon. Kevin Krueger Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Hon. Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hansen, Hon. Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nechako Lakes...... Hawes, Hon. Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Dawn Black Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Hon. Iain Black Lake, Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... Hon. John Yap MacDiarmid, Hon. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Hon. Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (NDP)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Hon. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Hon. Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Hon. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Gordon Campbell Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Hon. Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, Hon. John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Hon. Ben Stewart

Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 35; Independent 1

CONTENTS

Thursday, May 20, 2010 Afternoon Sitting

Page

Routine Business

Introductions by Members...... 5621

Tributes...... 5622 Jennifer Hao R. Lee

Introductions by Members...... 5622

Tributes...... 5622 Ron Butlin Hon. I. Chong

Introductions by Members...... 5622

Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 5622 Creston Valley Blossom Festival M. Mungall Aboriginal Awareness Week M. Dalton 100th anniversary of Prince Rupert G. Coons Visit to Shanghai R. Lee Alice Maitland D. Donaldson Tsleil-Waututh First Nation Olympic legacy celebration J. Thornthwaite

Oral Questions...... 5625 Waiting times for MRI and diagnostic services A. Dix Hon. K. Falcon S. Hammell D. Routley Self-exclusion program for problem gamblers S. Simpson Hon. K. Falcon Impact of harmonized sales tax on health care products J. Brar Hon. C. Hansen Implementation of harmonized sales tax B. Ralston Hon. C. Hansen D. Donaldson J. Kwan

Orders of the Day

Committee of the Whole House...... 5629 Bill 14 — Motor Vehicle Amendment Act, 2010 (continued) M. Farnworth Hon. M. de Jong B. Ralston Reporting of Bills...... 5639 Bill 14 — Motor Vehicle Amendment Act, 2010

Third Reading of Bills...... 5639 Bill 14 — Motor Vehicle Amendment Act, 2010

Committee of the Whole House...... 5639 Bill 10 — Veterinarians Act L. Popham Hon. S. Thomson H. Bains J. Brar B. Ralston

Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 5650 Bill 10 — Veterinarians Act

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply...... 5650 Estimates: Ministry of Community and Rural Development Hon. B. Bennett S. Fraser B. Simpson D. Donaldson K. Corrigan N. Simons 5621

THURSDAY, MAY 20, 2010 the House, Mr. Steve de Jong. Would the House please make them both very welcome. The House met at 1:34 p.m. J. Thornthwaite: I'd like to welcome a friend and sup- [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] porter, Silvester Law. Silvester is up there in the gallery, and he's been a great supporter of ours over the years. Routine Business We really appreciate him coming to visit. Welcome, Silvester. Introductions by Members S. Hammell: I have the pleasure of introducing three Hon. G. Abbott: I'm just looking for my guests. I teachers from Surrey. Stephanie Argent is a teacher- think they're probably still making their way in, but I librarian at Holly Elementary, an inner-city school in have the great pleasure of introducing several members Surrey. She combines her teaching degree with a back- of the Treaty 8 First Nations, who will be joining us in ground of library, community recreation and learning the House today. support in her role as a teacher-librarian in a multicul- They are West Moberly First Nations Chief Roland tural school with 40 languages. Willson; Prophet River First Nation Chief Lynette Tsakoza; Patricia Baisi has been a teacher-librarian in the Doig River First Nation Chief Norman Davis; Treaty 8 Surrey school district since 1999. She has chaired the Tribal Chief Liz Logan; Prophet River First Nation Coun. Surrey schools Book of the Year program for the last two Laurette Kaiser; and the negotiations and implementation years and currently works in two libraries. director for Treaty 8, Diane Abel. Kathy Leko is a teacher in Surrey school district for [1335] 23 years, has worked in small rural schools, inner-city Earlier today these three Treaty 8 First Nations signed schools and large suburban schools in primary and four resource management agreements and a final agree- intermediate grades. Could the House please make all ment with the province that will provide greater certainty these three fine teacher-librarians welcome. around economic opportunities, resource development, land stewardship and heritage conservation in the trad- Hon. S. Bond: From time to time in the House my itional territory of these Treaty 8 First Nations. I'd ask all colleague from Prince George North and I like to recog- members of the House to please make them welcome on nize special people. I'd like to do that today. I'd like to this very special and historic day. recognize Mrs. Brenda Bell. Today is a very special day in the Bell household. It is actually their 32nd wedding H. Bains: It is my pleasure to introduce to this House anniversary. I think anyone who could be with the mem- my very good friend, Scott Lunny, who is an assistant to ber from Prince George North for 32 years deserves a the director in district 3 of the Steelworkers. He's also a special commendation in the Legislature today. vice-president of the B.C. NDP. Along with him is a special guest from the U.K., Louisa D. Thorne: I also have the pleasure today to introduce Bull. She's a deputy branch secretary of Unite, a union two teacher-librarians. I'd like to introduce the House that represent over two-million-strong workers in the to Maureen Mcdonough, who has been a teacher for 18 United Kingdom. Please help me give them a real warm years and a teacher-librarian for the last three. She's cur- welcome to this beautiful place here. rently the teacher-librarian at Laronde Elementary in Hope your journey is great. Surrey. In addition to her teaching degree, she has a mas- ter's in education in curriculum and instruction and a K. Corrigan: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to certificate of teacher-librarianship. She is also one of the welcome to the House today Coun. Richard Chang, a coordinators of the preschool literacy program Parents councillor in the city of Burnaby. With Richard are as Literacy Supporters, otherwise known as PALS. Katherine Shieh, CEO, and Bill Tulloss, the vice-president [1340] of StructuRad, a company out of Encino, California, who I would also like to introduce Lisa Domeier de Suarez, are here meeting with several members of the opposition who has been the secondary teacher-librarian at Clayton to talk about their company, which offers teleradiology Heights Senior Secondary in Surrey since 2007. She pre- solutions and image-sharing networks. I hope the House viously taught English and Spanish for seven years. In will make them very welcome. addition to her teaching degree, she has a BA in Spanish, Latin American literature and Portuguese and is a gradu- T. Lake: We're very privileged to have working in the ate of the UBC teacher-librarian diploma program. B.C. Liberal caucus someone from a very proud and I would like the House to welcome them, along with prominent Kamloops family, Stacie Dley. Today she is the three teacher-librarians from Surrey my colleague joined by her partner, and first time to be introduced in introduced — highly educated, wonderful parts of our 5622 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

education system. I'd like the House to make them very ing this on a voluntary basis for the past 20 years and welcome. does an incredible job. I know he would be here watching us today, but I'm sure he's watching on his television. I Hon. R. Hawes: I'd like to introduce 35 grade 11 stu- would ask the House to please recognize and acknowledge dents from Heritage Park Secondary in Mission. They Ron Butlin, parade chairman. will be arriving just about when question period starts. They are with five parents and their teacher, Ms. Holly Introductions by Members Mayo. They are here to take a look at what's going on here in the buildings. I would ask all members…. I'm J. Rustad: A couple months ago, I had the great pleas- pretty sure you'll want to be on your best behaviour for ure of going and visiting the Rainbow Christian School these grade 11 students, who I'm sure would like to see in my riding. Today there is a school group that has a very normal, quiet debate, and I'm sure they will. With come down here to visit us. They aren't in the precinct that, please welcome them as they arrive. quite yet, but they will be shortly. It's a group of 16 grade 8 students, accompanied by 12 adults. Mr. Mark Durupt Tributes is the head of that group here. I just wanted to make them all welcome. JENNIFER HAO Hon. P. Bell: Serenading visitors to the Legislature R. Lee: I would like to take this time to congratulate today is a group of fiddle students from Whitehorse in a grade 10 student at Burnaby North Secondary School the Yukon, on an exchange program with young fiddlers in my constituency. Jennifer Hao won first place with an from Victoria. Both the Yukon fiddlers and the Victoria- essay in Canada's Greenest School competition. Jennifer based fiddlers are led by my brother-in-law DanielL app, herself will receive a $3,000 scholarship, $500 in green who is out on the steps of the Legislature playing for school supplies and, most impressively, a $200,000 hybrid tourists today. Would the House please welcome all of school bus for her school. Would the House please join the students from both Victoria and the Yukon. me in congratulating Jennifer and all the students who [1345] took part in this impressive green inner-city program. D. Hayer: We have one special guest here today, Owen Introductions by Members C. MacRae. He is the Canadian director of Clan MacRae Society of Canada and one of the hardest-working resi- D. McRae: Some members of this House may have dents of Surrey. I would like to welcome him and thank noticed there was a gathering of the Clan MacRae at the him for all the work he does for Surrey. Will the House Legislature today. I would like to pay special note to some please make him very welcome. people here. Marigold MacRae, Gracious Lady of Eilean Donan Castle of Scotland and president of the Clan MacRae Statements Society of the United Kingdom, is here. The Baroness (Standing Order 25B) Miranda MacRae–Van Lynden, 24th constable of Eilean Donan Castle; the Rev. Dr. Robert MacRae, president of the CRESTON VALLEY BLOSSOM FESTIVAL Clan MacRae Society of Canada; and several members of the Clan MacRae Society are here to meet for their M. Mungall: This May long weekend presents a big AGM and to attend the Highland Games and Celtic Festival. weekend for the Creston Valley. The 69thC reston Valley Will the House please make them welcome. Blossom Festival kicks offF riday, May 21, with both the Party in the Park and the opening concert featuring the Tributes Doug Arden comedy show. Not to be outdone by Friday, Saturday shows up with RON BUTLIN fun-packed activities, most notably the Blossom Festival parade that features marching bands, floats, clowns, Hon. I. Chong: All members will know that on horses and the local MLA throwing candy to both kids Monday we celebrate one of our statutory holidays. Here and kids at heart. in Victoria we have our annual Island Farms Victoria There's also a street fair in Creston's downtown Spirit Day Parade on Monday morning, starting at 9 a.m. I Square, events saluting the Creston Museum, the Classic know those members who are local will attend it, as well Car Show and Shine, a soccer tournament, events at the as those who may arrive Sunday night. I hope that they Creston Valley wildlife management area, a spike-driving will participate in this. contest, a dunk tank, a climbing wall at Millennium Park, I wanted to pay special acknowledgment and recognition a chili cook-off and so much more. So you see what I to an individual, the parade chairman, who has been do- mean when I say "big weekend." Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5623

But a big weekend just wouldn't earn that title with- 100th ANNIVERSARY OF PRINCE RUPERT out one key ingredient. That, of course, is the pancake breakfast. The Creston Valley Blossom Festival not only G. Coons: "Sold out." That's what the sign says at the hosts one such pancake breakfast, where festival-goers headquarters of the Prince Rupert 2010 Homecoming. get to line up and get their share of syrup and flapjacks, Two years of intensive organizing, planning and prepping but you will find three pancake breakfasts where you have culminated in a fun-filled long weekend starting can enjoy friends, family and neighbours over a cup of today, May 20, and continuing until Sunday, May 23. joe and a stack. [1350] Now, if all that isn't enough to get you running over to This is PrinceR upert's third homecoming. The first was Creston for the weekend, the festival theme this year is: in 2000 to celebrate the millennium. It attracted about a "New pool? That's cool." Celebrating the grand opening thousand people. The second was in 2005, with about of the Creston Valley's new swimming pool and updated 1,800 participants, and this weekend has 2,000 Rupertites community rec centre, the festival is ringing in this com- partaking, with an amazing 1,100 coming from all parts munity resource with style and great fanfare. of the globe — some as far away as Alaska, South Carolina, So come for the pancakes, come for the parade, and Texas, Germany, Norway, Dubai and Australia. come for a dip in the pool, but whatever you do, don't What's unique about this homecoming is that Prince miss out on Creston Valley's 69th Blossom Festival. Rupert is the only city in the province celebrating their 100th birthday. It's going to be a great weekend, with ABORIGINAL AWARENESS WEEK the usual hospitality rooms, the pancake breakfasts, the wagon rides, the golf scramble, the chauffeur-driven vis- M. Dalton: This is Aboriginal Awareness Week in its to local establishments, the five grad reunions, and British Columbia. I am proud to be Métis, and I'm the infamous gala and dance. proud of the progress that aboriginal people have been For Prince Rupert's 100th, there were a couple of in- making over the past number of years in terms of eco- triguing projects. The Rupert Songs CD is a compilation nomic development and treaty agreements with the of 15 songs to celebrate Rupert's centennial. It highlights province. unique interpretations of the town's spirit, landscape and There are over 130,000 First Nations people and the infamous weather and was done by current and ex- 60,000 Métis in the province, comprising approximately Rupertites. Homecomers will be entertained by some of 5 percent of our population. They are a fast-growing and these local performers, including Ray Leonard, Cynthia youthful people, which contrasts sharply with the aging Pyde and Kate Lines. demographics of the general populace. Also in celebration of Prince Rupert's centennial, a The increased participation of aboriginal people in our musical production was created, Raven's Story, The workforce is becoming increasingly important as time Dream Lives On, a musical based on the history of Prince progresses. As was evident in this year's Olympic Games, Rupert. It was written by Peter Witherly, Rudy Kelly and aboriginal peoples are a vital part of not only Canada's Chris Armstrong, produced by Crystal Lorette, directed but British Columbia's social fabric and heritage. by Alison O'Toole. It has over a hundred people from This year marks the tenth anniversary of the signing the community participating on and off the stage, -in of the historical Nisga'a treaty. In just the past year we've cluding their local MLA. signed treaties with six First Nations, including the I must acknowledge and thank the eight-member first urban treaty with Tsawwassen First Nation. These homecoming committee for all the hard work and treaties bring reconciliation and increased economic energy they put into organizing this event and also, as opportunities for First Nations people as well as for all Barb Gruber, says: "Rupert is a place that you just don't British Columbians. forget; it's always on your mind." This will be the best Though we have made significant positive steps homecoming yet. together, there remain many challenges, which will only be resolved with determination, vision, cooperation VISIT TO SHANGHAI and time. I make special mention of Shawn Atleo from the west coast of Vancouver Island, who was elected R. Lee: This week we celebrateA sian Heritage Month National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations last year. in the Parliament Buildings. It reminds us of the deep I also recognize the chiefs and elders throughout the connection of our province to the Asia-Pacific region. province who work to improve the condition of native Also this week the Premiers of our three western prov- communities and their people. inces are visiting China and Japan to promote education, British Columbia's aboriginal people are facing a trade and investment. brighter future, and I know we all share the desire to Last week, in my capacity as the Parliamentary see more progress to close the social and economic Secretary for the Asia-Pacific Initiative, I had the oppor- gaps. tunity to the visit the 2010 Shanghai Expo, which will 5624 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

last for six months with an expected 17 million visitors. decision in the courts and won, but the judge ruled it "Better city, better life" is the theme uniting the exhib- was too late to reverse the path chosen by government. itions of 246 countries. The lesson Alice taught all of us, though, was not lost. I attended the opening of the Canada Pavilion and the It was to stand up and fight when resource extractions opening of the Vancouver Pavilion, both pavilions an decisions by government run counter to what is best for example of wood in action, as the structures as well as the small communities where we live. the displays inside are made from wood. Perseverance Despite that feistiness, that fearlessness, Alice also and efforts like this are behind the success in our efforts brings a very strong sense of compassion to her public to export wood to the Asia-Pacific markets. role, and her ability to compromise when it is needed I'm sure we are all pleased with the recent announce- to get a better situation for the community is very ment of Canfor's mill re-opening and Tolko's agreement inspiring. with China, which will support 555 direct jobs. So congratulations, Alice. As her husband, Bill, says, On this trip, together with the Shanghai Business it hasn't been a cakewalk. I know there's been a lot of Association of Canada, I met with the vice-mayor of personal and financial sacrifice, but you've created a leg- Shanghai; provincial and state ministers; consuls gen- acy of strength for the rest of us to look up to. And the eral; independent news and institutes, including the best thing is, as Alice said that night, we aren't getting Wenhui-Xinmin United Press Group; Shanghai Women's rid of her yet. Federation; and Shanghai Academy of Agricultural Sciences. TSLEIL-WAUTUTH FIRST NATION I shared information about the Sunshine Coast, OLYMPIC LEGACY CELEBRATION Burnaby Board of Trade and the province with many of the people I met. It was an opportunity to help con- J. Thornthwaite: The Tsleil-Waututh Nation, or nect the B.C. delegation with Shanghai entrepreneurs, people of the inlet, live on the north shore of the Burrard government officials and our trade representatives in Inlet. They are a small but growing community of almost China. 500 people. On April 26 while I was here in Victoria, I witnessed strong intentions of cooperation in media, my constituency assistant Carol Dawson attended the agriculture, tourism, education. I'm sure the mem- Tsleil-Waututh Nation Olympic legacy celebration that bers would welcome the trip to Shanghai in September recognized all the partners that helped create the success if they want to join the trip organized by the Burnaby of the 2010 games and for helping the Tsleil-Waututh Board of Trade. First Nation reach centre stage. Last week at the Tsleil-Waututh Nation community ALICE MAITLAND centre I was honoured when Chief Justin Sky George wrapped me in a blanket that signifies warmth, love and the D. Donaldson: At the North Central Local willingness to work and help each other. I was also Government Association annual meeting held in presented with a plaque which reads: "Our memories of the Smithers earlier this month, there was a celebration to 2010 Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games will always mark 40 years of municipal politics for Hazelton Mayor remind us that when we paddle together as one, we can Alice Maitland. I'll say that again: 40 years, 34 as mayor. achieve great success. Our hands are up to you in thanks I spent a decade with Alice on Hazelton council. She and appreciation, thanking all of you honoured ones." is a friend and a mentor and has an incredible impact Local First Nations leaders remarked that since the on many leaders in the north, especially as a role model games, a new model for aboriginal participation has for women in municipal politics, and in this chamber been created for a platform of new solutions. Chief as well. Justin George has said: "We see this as a model for how What was honoured was not just her longevity but we can collectively come to the table. Rather than focus her quality of service, integrity and relentlessness in on problems, we focus on solutions. It's not going to defending rural communities. Many speakers took the happen overnight, but this will be seen as a building stage in what became a very emotional tribute. You block for the future." could hear a pin drop when former Smithers mayor Jim Dennis Thomas, who welcomed the world to Davidson said to Alice: "You were right; we were wrong. Vancouver wearing a wolf pelt on his shoulders dur- Those of us in this room did not support you. We didn't ing the Olympic opening ceremonies, remarked that think we could fight government." this is the first time an indigenous group has been ac- [1355] knowledged as an official partner in the games. SoI , too, He was referring to an unjust government decision in raise my hands in thanks and appreciation for the Tsleil- the late 1980s that allowed timber previously designated Waututh Nation and agree that when all of us do paddle for the Hazelton mills to go to Prince George instead. together with our First Nations partners, we achieve With the support of Hazelton council, Alice battled that great success in British Columbia. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5625

Oral Questions never talks about the wait times that CIHI talks about — the Canadian Institute for Health Information, which WAITING TIMES FOR said, actually, that British Columbia is number one for MRI AND DIAGNOSTIC SERVICES cardiac wait times; surgical wait times for hips, for knees, for cataracts. He never talks about that — number one. A. Dix: Ironically, my question to the Minister of Now, you know, I know that the Health critic likes Health is about wait times. If your doctor's office calls to be selective. He's now talking about MRIs. Granted, on your behalf and books a regular, medically necessary there is no standardized measuring process across the MRI at Vancouver General Hospital today, there's cur- country for MRIs. I acknowledge that. But what I can rently a 14- to 18-month wait time. In Abbotsford it's 18 tell the member is that we have gone from nine MRI months. That'sN ovember 2011. In Surrey it's 18 months. machines and 37,000 tests done in 2000-2001, when his In Nanaimo it's 14 months. In Burnaby it's 18 months. government was government, to today where we've got In many communities wait time has almost tripled 24 MRIs, over a hundred thousand procedures being since this minister became Minister of Health. Does done. I get that we continually have to try and improve. the minister think it's acceptable for people in pain to wait well over a year for medical services in British Mr. Speaker: The member has a further supplemental. Columbia? A. Dix: It's impressive. After a year of study the min- Hon. K. Falcon: Well, first of all,I want to make some- ister has discovered that every health system in the thing very clear. Any British Columbian that requires an world is doing more MRIs today than ten years ago. The urgent diagnostic, whether it's a CT scan, an MRI or Health Minister has discovered, apparently not discov- an X-ray, will receive that — full stop. The issue is with ered, 18-month wait times. All of the procedures we're elective, non-urgent procedures, and there is a wait. The talking about, every single one of them, are medically member is quite correct to point that out. necessary. The number of MRI machines in British Columbia Now, Mr. Cruz — he's a patient in Vancouver. He was has gone from nine in 2001, when we first got elected, to involved in a terrible hit-and-run. He was the victim of 24 today. The number of diagnostics that we do is up 170 a terrible hit-and-run. He was told that for the diagnos- percent, the number of MRIs that we're doing. tic procedure he requires on his legs he would have to Even in spite of those increases, there is still a chal- wait until July. That's July 2007.C an the minister explain lenge. So we are looking at the non-urgent MRIs and to us how that was now or ever acceptable in a public making sure that we do everything we can — looking health care system? at how the system is delivering it, the appropriateness of the referrals — to deal with the virtually unlimited Hon. K. Falcon: He refers to a gentleman, Mr. Cruz, demand for MRIs. that did spend one week back in February at Vancouver [1400] General Hospital. The member should know that during that time he did receive urgent diagnostics. He had two Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. CT scans for his neck and for….

A. Dix: Well, the only innovation this minister Interjection. has come up with is to cut 11,500 MRI procedures in Vancouver Island and Vancouver Coastal Health — Hon. K. Falcon: Excuse me. Sorry, Mr. Speaker, I'll 11,500 according to the health authorities themselves start repeating because the member interrupted me. — and to see a dramatic increase in wait times. Mr. Cruz was admitted to Vancouver General Hospital Oh, yeah, there was one more. They stopped pub- back in February where he spent approximately a week. lishing the wait-time data on the website. That's a real During that time Mr. Cruz received a number of urgent innovation from the Minister of Health. scans: two CT scans for his spine and his head as well as The reality is that an 18-month wait time is completely an ultrasound and seven different sets of X-rays. unacceptable, and it's directly the result of the policies of Subsequent to being discharged a week later, he has the Ministry of Health. They did more MRI procedures been an out-patient and received out-patient treatments. before the election than after the election. That's what I understand that he does have a non-urgent MRI for a that was about, hon. Speaker. When will the minister do knee that his doctors referred to. The member should something about unacceptable wait times across British know that for non-urgent MRIs there is a wait-list, and Columbia? we are very concerned about that. We're doing every- thing we can to try and address those situations, not just Hon. K. Falcon: It is interesting that the Health critic for Mr. Cruz but for British Columbians right across the brings up the issue of wait times, because I notice he province. 5626 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

S. Hammell: Hon. Speaker, my constituents are now and deliver those MRIs more efficiently for non-urgent waiting 18 months — 18 months — to undergo a medic- MRIs. It is a challenge for British Columbia, but we are ally required MRI at Surrey Memorial Hospital. When working on a number of solutions to deal with it. this government's electoral prospects were on the line, resources were allocated towards reducing MRI waits D. Routley: My constituents are referred to Nanaimo in Metro Vancouver. That funding has subsequently Regional General Hospital for diagnostic tests. This been withdrawn, and now by sanctioning layoffs of MRI Liberal government, through VIHA, in the lead-up to technicians, the number of tests the public health care the last provincial election announced additional fund- system performs is even further reduced. Treatment ing for MRIs. That was before the election. After the cannot proceed without diagnostics. election VIHA was forced to cut thousands of scans. On those grounds, will the minister reverse this The wait time is now more than tripled, to 14 months. course? My community, like others in B.C., has invested, through [1405] their tax dollars and through donations, in these MRI machines and these procedures. Will the minister stop Hon. K. Falcon: It's interesting that that member asks wasting our investment in public health care? the question, because of course, that member was a cab- inet minister during an NDP government when Fraser Hon. K. Falcon: I think it's important to point out Health had only one MRI machine for the entire Fraser to the member opposite that actually the largest invest- Health. In fact, it was a common practice in Fraser ment in public health care is occurring right now under Health that they would ship their patients to Vancouver this government and has been…. I want to remind the to receive the MRIs. member opposite that actually the health care budget Well, I can tell you this. In Fraser Health the number is going up 15 percent over the next three years. That's of MRI procedures from 2001 to today are up 528 per- over two billion additional dollars just for operating. cent. But you know, even with a 528 percent increase, the [1410] demand is virtually limitless. That's why we are actually As you know and as I've said before, that doesn't even trying to find different ways to deliver those - proced include the additional $3 billion in capital, including the ures to increase productivity and to try and ensure that new Royal Jubilee Hospital that just recently received British Columbians waiting for non-urgent MRIs can international acclaim and that's under construction. receive them as quickly as they rightly deserve them. Really, the challenge is this. The challenge is that even in spite of those massive investments in Canada and, Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. indeed, in British Columbia, we still have virtually un- limited demand. So the responsibility of governments is S. Hammell: This member has a lot of time wander- to figure out how we can do more with the dollars, the ing in the past, but this decade is on his watch. Surrey record dollars, we're already pouring into the system. Memorial is not only my community hospital, but it also TheN DP approach is: don't change anything; just huck serves the Minister of Health's constituents of Surrey- more money at it. Our approach is to actually try to look Cloverdale. His decision to undercut their access to at doing things innovatively, differently, and that's what diagnostic tests leaves them waiting for over a year for we're going to continue to try and do. treatment. The minister knows that this should not be the standard wait time, nor does it have to be. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Will the minister at least restore MRI volumes in the Lower Mainland to pre-election, May 2009 levels? D. Routley: On the one hand, the minister boasts about spending, and then he accuses this side of only Hon. K. Falcon: Actually, I can tell you that what resi- asking for spending. He talks about the cost-efficiency. dents in Surrey are really proud of is the fact that there's Through the chair, Minister, it is not cost-efficient… a $240 million out-patient hospital being constructed right now in Surrey. I'll tell you what else they're proud Interjections. of. They're very proud of the fact that there's a new $600 million Surrey tower at Surrey Memorial Hospital being Mr. Speaker: Members. constructed in Surrey. You know, the challenge for British Columbia is a D. Routley: …to let this equipment sit idle. To allow challenge right across the country with MRIs. It's that wait times to grow exponentially is not cost-efficient. In the explosion of requests for MRIs for non-urgent pro- fact, it creates a bottleneck in the system. It does not re- cedures is virtually unlimited. What we are trying to do duce health care expenditures. Instead, it accomplishes is deal with that in a thoughtful way that looks at the ap- the complete opposite because patients deteriorate. propriateness of referrals, that looks at how we can try Why is the minister continuing to make decisions that Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5627

put more strain on Vancouver Island patients and their on July 1 we will see the HST add a new tax on a whole health care system? range of health care products that help keep people of British Columbia out of health care: vitamins and sup- Hon. K. Falcon: How refreshing to finally hear the plements, over-the-counter medications and remedies, words "efficient" and "efficiency" come out of the NDP. fitness memberships, bicycles — just to name a few. That's got to be a first. Let's record that one in the his- That is completely contrary to the B.C. Liberal promise tory books. to promote healthy living. I can tell you that when we do other changes in the My question is to the Minister of Healthy Living and health system — like, for example, when we move to- Sport. Has the Minister of Health Living met with the wards joint procurement where all the health authorities Finance Minister to let him know that the HST damages are purchasing together, saving $150 million — they are the very goals her ministry is responsible to promote? opposed to it. Every single change we've made that im- proves efficiency, the NDP are hysterically opposed to. Hon. C. Hansen: What is clear, I think, to British So it is surprising that that member, of all members, ac- Columbians is that the vast majority of goods and tually lets the word "efficiency" cross his lips. services, 80 percent of goods and services, will not be af- The fact is that they're opposed to change. They are fected at all by the introduction of the harmonized sales opposed to innovation. We have always said that we em- tax or, in fact, some will actually come down in price. brace innovation. We embrace change. We embrace the We recognize that there are some things that are going challenge of trying to deal with a health care system that to be more expensive. That's exactly why we have put in in spite of record funding increases, still faces challenges. place an HST credit for British Columbia families, and We'll continue to innovate on this side of the House. 1.1 million British Columbians will get a cheque in the mail every three months to help offset some of those in- SELF-EXCLUSION PROGRAM cremental costs. FOR PROBLEM GAMBLERS The other thing that I think is important for the members opposite to pay attention to is that in British S. Simpson: Governments have a responsibility to Columbia today we have seen a significant increase in the have effective programs in place to deal with addictions. take-home pay that British Columbians enjoy because of Yesterday we heard about the failure of the voluntary the changes that we've made to personal income tax. self-exclusion program for people with gambling addic- For example, the take-home pay between 1990.… tions. This is a program, as the government will know, that looks to exclude problem gamblers from casinos Interjections. after they self-enrol. We heard about Shannon, who registered for this Mr. Speaker: Members. program in 2008 and then proceeded to gamble away $40,000 in casinos, including $4,000 in one 18-hour Hon. C. Hansen: Actually, the members might want stint. Her physician, Dr. Jennifer Melamed — an addic- to get their pencils out and write down these num- tions expert, as well — has called the program a sham bers, because I'm sure they'll want to use this in their and has stated: "If you say you're going to keep them speeches. Between the years 1990 and 1999 the average out, then keep them out. If you're saying it's a scam and take-home pay in British Columbia dropped by $1,525. a farce and it's not going to work, then tell the patients Between the years 2001 and 2008 the average take-home upfront." pay of British Columbians increased by $4,482. My question is to the Health Minister. Will the Health Minister commit today to work with his colleague the Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Minister of Housing and Social Development to do a third-party assessment of the self-exclusion program and J. Brar: It's very clear that the Minister of Healthy to fix the problems with the self-exclusion program? Living and Sport is not even allowed to stand up and de- fend her own policies for this government. Hon. K. Falcon: I'll take the question on notice on be- This is a story of an individual that talks about the half of the Minister of Housing. damage the HST has done to that person. Phillip Gabel [1415] called us today. Mr. Gabel lives in 100 Mile House. He's a paraplegic because of a car accident six years ago. He IMPACT OF HARMONIZED SALES TAX takes vitamins to keep his body strong. He needs mas- ON HEALTH CARE PRODUCTS sage therapy services, and he also takes over-the-counter aspirin as a blood thinner. These are all going to go up J. Brar: If the B.C. Liberal government continues to under the HST, and Mr. Gabel is very angry with the B.C. ignore the people of British Columbia that elected them, Liberals, and rightfully so. 5628 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

My question is again to the minister. Can the minis- was going to build the economy of British Columbia. It ter explain why these health products necessary to keep was going to create jobs, and that is exactly what we are Phillip Gabel well are going to cost more, completely delivering. contrary to Liberal policies? We are now seeing evidence that British Columbia is going to lead Canada in terms of economic growth this Hon. C. Hansen: The hon. member will know that year, according to the Conference Board of Canada. We the vast majority of products and services that a family see where British Columbia is leading Canada in terms needs in their household budget, the core things that of job creation and an unemployment rate that dropped people rely on for their families, are either exempt or in one month from 7.9 percent down to 7.3 percent. Just are not going to change at all as a result of HST. That this morning one of the three big bond-rating agencies includes things like home energy. It includes things like in North America, Standard and Poor's, reconfirmed basic food and groceries. It includes things like gasoline British Columbia's triple-A credit rating. for their automobile. After a decade in the 1990s, where we saw British I have a question back to the member. When that con- Columbia go from a have province to a have-not stituent contacted him, did the member actually tell that province, where we saw consecutive year-after-year constituent that he may be eligible for this HST credit downgrades of British Columbia's credit rating, we have in the form of a cheque in the mail that will arrive? The now seen a decade of growth, a decade of positive eco- first of those cheques — by the way, to the member — is nomic outcomes, a decade of strong growth in our credit arriving in the first week of July. Those cheques will help rating, to the point that we now have a triple-A credit offset the cost of HST for the vast majority of low- and rating. That's what British Columbians elected last year modest-income British Columbians. in May, and that's what we are going to deliver. [1420] D. Donaldson: Well, the Minister of Finance brings IMPLEMENTATION OF up integrity. No one's questioned his integrity. What HARMONIZED SALES TAX we're questioning is his decision not to tell the people of B.C. he was bringing in the HST before the election. B. Ralston: The restaurant and food services industry British Columbians know the HST was a broken elec- asked both major parties during the last election: "Will your tion promise by this Liberal government. These absurd party oppose harmonizing the GST with the PST in British excuses are just, plain and simple, not good enough. Is the Columbia?" The B.C. Liberal response in writing was: "It is Minister of Finance saying that a declaration in writing not something that is contemplated in the B.C. Liberal elec- by the B.C. Liberal Party isn't worth the paper it's written tion platform." They continued: "We have no plans to move on, or will he honour what was written before the election on harmonizing federal and provincial sales tax." and reverse the HST before it's implemented July 1? Why won't the Finance Minister acknowledge what [1425] everyone else in British Columbia knows — that the B.C. Liberals broke their promise not to bring in an HST? Hon. C. Hansen: That's coming from a member who campaigned on a platform of opposing a carbon tax. Hon. C. Hansen: I stand by what I have said in this How many days did it take for the official opposition to House. I have outlined for the members opposite the flip-flop on their carbon tax after the election? timing and the sequencing of the decisions around the We were elected…. harmonized sales tax, and I will not stand here and have the Finance critic for the official opposition question my Interjections. integrity in this chamber. Mr. Speaker: Members. Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. Minister, just take your seat for a second.

B. Ralston: The truth is that voters were betrayed, and Interjections. the minister's responses are embarrassing to the people of British Columbia. Will the Finance Minister pluck up Mr. Speaker: Members. Minister. his courage and stand up in this House and admit the Continue, Minister. truth that everyone in British Columbia knows — that the B.C. Liberals made a promise not to bring in the Hon. C. Hansen: We were elected on a platform of HST, and they broke it? making sure that British Columbia led North America in economic recovery. We are seeing that evidence today. Hon. C. Hansen: What we promised British Columbians We know from the commentators and from the leading in the election last year was that this was a party that economists in North America that if we want to truly Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5629

maximize the opportunities for B.C. families, to maxi- Committee of the Whole House mize jobs all around British Columbia, the adoption of the harmonized sales tax is the single biggest thing we Bill 14 — Motor Vehicle can do to make sure that British Columbia continues on Amendment Act, 2010 the path of strong economic recovery that we have seen (continued) over the last 12 months. TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on J. Kwan: This charade reminds me of the old game Bill 14; L. Reid in the chair. show, Family Feud. What are the two worst broken promises by this Liberal government? The survey says The committee met at 2:33 p.m. the sale of B.C. Rail and the HST. The first issue is before the Supreme Court of B.C., and the second issue is be- The Chair: The Minister of State for Mining seeks fore the courts of the people. leave to make an introduction. Will the minister save his colleagues from the wrath of the electorate and just admit that the B.C. Liberals be- Introductions by Members trayed British Columbians and scrap the HST? Hon. R. Hawes: It gives me pleasure to introduce Interjections. a number of students — I think there are 35 — from Heritage Park high school in Mission, a great school. Mr. Speaker: Members. They're here with their teacher. I had her name here a moment ago. Holly…. She's waving, anyway. Hon. C. Hansen: This is coming from a member who They're here to watch what's going on. I hope they was actually part of cabinet in the late 1990s, when we enjoyed question period. It was, well, probably different saw a net out-migration. for you. But enjoy your trip to the Legislature. I'm sure you're going to learn lots here today. It's a great school. Interjections. Could the House please make them all feel very welcome. [1435] Mr. Speaker: Minister, just take your seat for a second. Continue, Minister. Debate Continued

Hon. C. Hansen: This is coming from a member who On section 19 (continued). was part of the cabinet in the NDP government, when we saw 50,000 British Columbians leave this province in M. Farnworth: We're on section 19, which is a fairly search of jobs in other parts of Canada. That was their long section that deals with the changes taking place, approach to job creation, but the problem is that they moving from not just .08 but down to .05, and the pro- weren't creating jobs in British Columbia. They were hibitions that now arise when one does blow or register creating jobs in Alberta and other parts of Canada. a blood alcohol content of between .05 and .08 and the We have set out a positive agenda. We have set out a changes that take place. competitive tax regime that is actually attracting invest- One of the issues I would like to ask at this particu- ment. It's attracting the businesses that are creating the lar point…. What is happening is that, in essence, we jobs for B.C. families. are tightening up the discretionary part of the roadside suspension from 24 hours — it's now if the light goes or- [End of question period.] ange, there will be. I think that's an important change. What we've done in this province historically is that Interjections. there has been a significantC ounterAttack program that has been accompanied by ads and education programs Mr. Speaker: Members. around that. Is it the government's intent to ensure that in keep- Orders of the Day ing with these changes, people are made aware of them — that there is an educational component, that there is a Hon. M. de Jong: I call Committee of Supply in campaign component that will drive home the message Committee A — for the information of members, the that there have been some significant changes now in estimates of the Ministry of Community Development British Columbia and that the yellow light is the same — and, in this chamber, continued committee stage de- thing as a red light? It will mean significant penalties bate on Bill 14. and significant changes in the way that people who are [1430] driving impaired will be treated. 5630 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for his com- M. Farnworth: Under subsection (4): "For the purposes ments. I think there is a case to be made for drawing the of subsection (1), a prohibition is (a) a first prohibition if public's attention to the changes that these provisions rep- a person has not been subject to a previous prohibition resent. I think they are significant enough to warrant that. under that subsection within the 5 year period preced- There are, over the course of the balance of the year, I ing the prohibition." believe, two CounterAttack campaigns that would nor- The way I read that is that if today I had a prohibition mally be advanced, and they would be provincewide. and I had five years of a clean record, then five years and They would include both print and broadcast com- a day later, that would be treated as a first prohibition.I s ponents. I think it is appropriate, as the member has that correct? suggested, and the intention would be to adapt those campaigns to take into account and publicize the chan- Hon. M. de Jong: That is correct. ges that these provisions represent. M. Farnworth: Once this legislation is now intro- M. Farnworth: The effect of the driving prohibition duced, will it take effect from, let's say, today? So you will under section 215.41 introduces the following three cat- not be looking back. If someone had a 24-hour roadside egories: three days in the case of the first prohibition, suspension, let's say two weeks ago…. If they got one seven days in the case of a second prohibition or 30 days once this legislation would be passed, that would be in the case of a subsequent prohibition. passed as the first prohibition. Is that correct? What was the basis for the determination of that length of time? Was it done on the basis of a legal opin- Hon. M. de Jong: That is also the case. ion? Was it done on the basis of consultation with the police? Was it done on the basis of any jurisprudence? M. Farnworth: I would just ask for the rationale be- What was the basis for the determination that these hind that. Is it a legal issue or is it just: "Okay, we are now would be the lengths of time? introducing the new legislation so everyone knows that this is how it functions from now on. It is this way"? Or Hon. M. de Jong: I hope members will excuse me. is there a legal impediment to saying: "You know what? I did not this morning or as yet this afternoon intro- We have a new change in place, but we're not able to look duce the able staff that are helping to guide me and us back to determine whether that applies to your driving through these provisions. Tyann Blewett, Brad Gerhart record in terms of a prohibition or not"? and Dan Kazmiruk are here. [1440] Hon. M. de Jong: Probably three parts to the answer, There are two components, I think, to the member's the most important being that it was a purposeful deci- question around the genesis for this. The first relates to sion to create a regime, moving forward. To do otherwise the fact that they are escalating penalties, and I should would have been possible. It would have undoubtedly just take a moment and say that that is deliberate. It is complicated the legal instrument before us. I just posed built around the notion and belief in best practice that this question to the experts, and I don't want to over- the best way to alter behaviour is to ensure that the state this, but it may have been one of those features that sanction that accrues as a result of improper behaviour would have rendered the amendments more vulnerable increases through the repetition of that behaviour. to a constitutional challenge as well. The specifics as it relates to three, seven, and 30 are [1445] consistent with and, I suppose, to a certain extent mod- elled on what has been in place in Ontario since May of B. Ralston: Can the minister confirm, though, that last year. the superintendent will retain an overriding jurisdiction to assess each individual driving record on its own merit M. Farnworth: We're basing this in part on what has as he or she does now and can use the fact of 24-hour happened in Ontario since May of last year. Has there suspensions, however they're treated, to continue to use been any jurisprudence or legal issues arising out of the those in the same way going forward? Is that correct? new legislation that they passed in Ontario that we've had to either adapt in British Columbia or potential de- Hon. M. de Jong: As I think I understand the ques- cisions that may impact on this particular legislation tion, the answer would be yes. that we're aware of? M. Farnworth: I just want to confirm or understand. Hon. M. de Jong: Not yet, but we will be watching In some ways, I think one can make an argument to with interest, and of course, this will be one component continue to count. If you have a prohibition for driving, of the challenge that will likely arise in Ontario and, then five years later you have a prohibition for driving ultimately, I expect, here in B.C. plus a day — so it's your first — and then five years later Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5631

than that…. There's clearly a pattern there. Is there an words used are "where an approved screening device ability to take that into account, to say: "You know what? registers a warn." Perhaps my knowledge of statutory There is a pattern here"? drafting is not what it could be, butI would have thought The reality is that either it's treated more as a longer that one would want to clarify, in the definition section suspension or there is the ability, as the superintend- of "warn" — I'm thinking of some parking statutes, even, ent, to say: "You know what? You need either remedial where the wording is very specific that the expiry means training, or you need an interlock or something of that a flashing light on such and such a device — to specify nature." Is there the ability to take that into account? it more precisely. Because you won't be able to bridge an evidentiary gap with such a definition which doesn't in- Hon. M. de Jong: The short answer is yes. The differ- clude this. It may not be possible to do that. ence, of course, would be that the automatic escalating I just want to express that concern about the way in provisions would not kick in, and it would be an ex- which the definition has been drafted, becauseI fear that ercise, as the member for Surrey-Whalley has pointed it may be something that won't bear the weight of judi- out, of the superintendent's discretionary authority else- cial scrutiny that it might receive in the future. where in the act. M. Farnworth: In this section you get a driving pro- B. Ralston: I just wanted to ask some questions related hibition for either three, seven or 30 days. There's also to the definition of "fail" and "warn" that are set out in the 90-day provision. The other angle, or the other as- the act. Sometimes in some statutes…. As I understand it, pect, is the additional consequences of a monetary for the approved screening device, what will be displayed penalty. If the minister could just outline what those will not be a numerical reading but will be a colour of a monetary penalties are, because I have a couple of ques- light — a yellow for a warn and a red for a fail. tions, and it will flow from his answer. So when this is translated into a statute, it's not exactly the same thing. In some legal interpretations I'm aware Hon. M. de Jong: To the member for Surrey-Whalley: of or I recall, that may pose a difficulty in sustaining that I was not meaning to be disrespectful earlier. I note his interpretation of what it means to be given a warn or observation and didn't think I had much to add to the to be given a fail. Given that this is a statute with some exchange. fairly serious consequences in terms of loss of licence, To the member: two sets of fines. One relates to the it might be likely to be challenged in the courts, as the fines that are imposed, where it's a warning, within the minister has pointed out. warning range — so .05 to .08: first time, $200; second Has that issue — that the legal equivalent of the dis- time within five years, $300; and third time within five play of a light, the colour of a light on the approved years, $400. In the fail range it is a $500 fine — yeah, a screening device, equals a certain numerical value of $500 amount. impairment — been considered? M. Farnworth: In section (2) of 215.44 it goes: "The Hon. M. de Jong: I think I understand the mem- monetary penalty must not exceed the amount pre- ber's question. Again, he's right about the seriousness scribed by regulation" — which is clearly either the $200, of the consequences here, so these are relevant matters $300, $400 or $500, but then it goes on to say — "and in to canvass. any event must not exceed $500." I think procedurally what would need to occur upon My question is: what is the purpose for putting on the any sort of judicial review exercise, or possibly even an cap? Are you not limiting the ability to sort of quickly administrative review, would be the need…. Whether respond to changes? For example, if it's deemed that the or not the screening device is lights or the word "fail" reality is a stiffer financial penalty after a year or two or "warn," it would be incumbent to present evidence years or down the road, you're having to bring things that that orange light or red light or warn or fail equates back to the House. or relates to an instrument that has been calibrated in a So why has that not been taken into account here, and certain way — so between .05 and .08 being the warn, what's the purpose? and above .08, the fail. [1450] Hon. M. de Jong: Again, the short answer is legal ad- I think at that stage of the process, there would be an vice, and this relates to something that we have been obligation to present a factual basis for what the lights or discussing throughout this debate on this bill. We were the words equate to, from the perspective of a calibrated very sensitive to the amount of the fines. The advice is, instrument. again, to insulate against what we think will be the in- evitable challenge — having a statutory cap. B. Ralston: I think this is an important point. When The member is right.A ny change will require the gov- one looks further down, let's say at section 215.43, the ernment of the day to come before the House and seek 5632 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

permission and approval from the House to make the In this specific case we have tried to take account of change. But its presence in the body of the statute relates at least two things. First of all, in the case of, let us say, to the advice we received around protecting against the a three-day driver's prohibition, one could have taken constitutional arguments that we think will flow about the view that before getting your licence back, you had penalty provisions. to pay your fine. The determination was made that no, [1455] there should be some period to pay. What should that period be? Well, if you get a speed- M. Farnworth: Then does this mirror what is in ing ticket, you've got 30 days to pay that. That is equal existing Ontario legislation? Are the penalties that they across the board as well, so we thought that to align it have the same as this, or are they different? with that time-to-pay period seemed to be, I'll say, a rea- sonable rationale. But I don't want to dispute what the Hon. M. de Jong: I'm just reminded that the Ontario member has said — that for a family earning $30,000 a penalties are significantly lower. We believe, based on year, these fines will have an impact far different than a memory, it's $150 across the board. family earning $100,000 a year. [1500] M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for that answer. Also in 215.44, under section (1): "A person who has M. Farnworth: I thank the minister for that ques- been served with a notice of driving prohibition under tion, and I agree. It is a broader issue, and it is one that section 215.41 is also liable to pay, no later than 30 days applies to a whole host of things. That's why I raise it, after the date the notice is served, a monetary penalty" because these are new, important prohibitions and pen- — that's the penalty that we've been talking about — "in alties coming into place. I think what it comes back to the amount prescribed by regulation." The question I is the importance in terms of the government educat- have is: why the period 30 days? Again, is that a statu- ing the public, educating drivers, doing a campaign like tory one? CounterAttack. It's like: "Look, there are some signifi- More importantly, I think there's an element of abil- cant changes here, and they have some very important ity to pay here, in that if you have a high income and are consequences." financially secure, you can pay that in 30 days and that People need to understand that and recognize the im- may not be a problem. But if you're not as financially portance and the significance of these changes because sound or as financially secure, this can put a consider- they will impact them, not just in their ability to use a able hardship. While I agree that the message is clear vehicle but also in the pocketbook. Given the disparity — we don't tolerate drinking and driving — there is an in income and the ability to pay, I think it's important issue, I think, of fairness here or in the ability of some- that it's just reinforced — what role that I think the gov- one to be able to pay the fine. ernment needs to be taking on. That fairness isn't there, on the basis that someone One of the additional consequences, apart from the with a higher income is able to pay, and someone in a monetary, is the remedial program in place. "If a per- lower income is not. Within this section I don't see an son is prohibited from driving for a period of 30 or 90 area or the potential for relief or the ability to pay over days under section 215.43, the person must register in a different period of time. If the minister could address and attend any remedial program required by the super- those two issues, I would be grateful. intendent under section 25.1." My question is this. First off, is the attendance man- Hon. M. de Jong: I'll begin by acknowledging the datory? What's the level of discretion? And second, who observation that the member has made, which I have will decide? Will there be, I guess, in essence, a registry heard from other sources. That is that depending on of acceptable programs, or will that be just up to the dis- one's financial circumstances, penalties of any sort and cretion of the superintendent? particularly penalties that could run to the hundreds of dollars…. Of course, we are only talking now about one Hon. M. de Jong: As per the section, of course, the aspect of a broader fiscal sanction that they will visit, requirement is a mandatory one. But I can alert the hon. with varying degrees of harshness, upon people, and member to the fact that the program is in existence now, that is a reality. so there are drivers today that are referred to it. It may I think the same can be said of the consequences of get a little busier. We hope, actually, not too much busier. a driving prohibition or a vehicle…. To have a vehicle But it may get a little busier before these provisions have impounded when it is the only vehicle your family owns the desired effect. and operates is a different matter than to have a vehicle The member didn't ask, but I suspect he will. The impounded if it is one of three vehicles that sit in the individual driver will cover the cost of attending that garage of a family. So that argument has some applica- program, and my recollection is that it is about an $880 tion and goes to the seriousness of the consequences. charge for attending and completing that program. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5633

M. Farnworth: Yes, the minister was anticipating my that there is an issue of looking at some of the intent of next question. The follow-up question to that, then, is: the legislation. will that be a one-off or will it be: "Okay, clearly, you One of the things that I think we should be concerned didn't get the message this time, so the next time you get about is the potential of putting individuals in a poten- a prohibition — guess what — you're going to be going tially dangerous situation. If you're away — if you're on back to school again." a dark road, for example, or you're a fair distance from The requirement can be each subsequent time, but your place of residence or where the other people in the also, if additional other factors in the record indicate to vehicle are going…. For example, there may be minors the superintendent that there is a problem here, addi- involved or younger people. tional remedial action or education is required. Is that If there is someone in the vehicle who is capable and the case? who is not impaired — is sober and not impaired — and they have the ability to take that vehicle to where Hon. M. de Jong: Yes, that's the case. it should be, including the other passengers in there, then that is an appropriate discretionary action to be M. Farnworth: In terms of the impoundment of the taken by the officer who has issued the prohibition to vehicle, there's the three-day, and then there's the seven- the individual. day. I think that's fairly straightforward in terms of what I'm thinking of cases where you could have, let's say, takes place. Is the requirement to have the vehicle im- three young teenagers — 18, 19 — a fair distance from pounded, or is there the ability to just have the vehicle home, maybe no public transit in the area. It's not a out of use? question of, you know: is a taxi readily available? And [1505] you tow the vehicle away. Then it's, like, okay, they're The reason I ask that question is sometimes you will stuck somewhere, and that's not exactly the most ideal get two or three people in the car. The driver, particu- situation. larly now that you've got the fail-safe, thinks that they're So it's not a question of lessening the severity of the fine. You blow the warning. You blow orange as opposed consequences but recognizing a reality that we should to red. You get the three-day prohibition. But some- err on the side of caution, if the minister understands body else in the vehicle is perfectly sober and capable the point that I'm trying to make. I'd appreciate his com- of driving. ments on it. Is the purpose to actually impound the vehicle or just [1510] to get it off the road? So that person would be able to drive the vehicle either to the registered owner's place Hon. M. de Jong: I'm reminded that we are going to of residence, where it's not used or, you know, out of come to a section in the vehicle impoundment sections the way. that deals specifically with obligations around ensuring the safety of people in a case where a vehicle is im- Hon. M. de Jong: The member is correct about the pounded, and I have the member's point. manner in which the section is worded. It does pro- It is neither the objective nor would it be prudent to vide…. Here is where, again, the notion of discretionary create a situation in which the three teenagers are left authority on the part of the police officer comes into play, at 2 a.m. in the morning on the side of Highway 1 with because whilst some of the other sanctions are manda- traffic whizzing by. There are provisions that speak to tory, the police officer has a choice here. that later in the bill. I don't think that choice extends to, for example, or- But I should also say this, in response to the scenario dering the vehicle disabled onto the side of the road. I raised by the member. The police officer will have the think the officer, he or she, has the option of ordering option of deciding whether or not to order impound- the vehicle impounded or not. In that case if there was ment. Whilst that decision will rest with the police another driver available to take custody, care and con- officer,I don't want people to garner the impression that trol of the vehicle and drive off, they would have that if they make this mistake — if they do this, but they've option, if the police officer chose not to have the vehicle got someone with them who actually should have been impounded. driving in the first place — all of this is going to be a lit- tle easier because they'll just ask the person who's sober M. Farnworth: I think this is an important point that and able to drive to take the vehicle. They will still risk I just want to ask a few more questions on. I think most having their vehicle impounded and all of the requisite people accept the fact that if you've got a prohibition, costs that go with that. your vehicle is impounded. You will not get any argu- I think the point about ensuring the safety of the in- ment from the public on that. I think where the question dividuals…. Nor, by the way, do I anticipate or expect, on the issue of discretion becomes important…. And I nor does the act, the amendments, contemplate an of- think it's important that in this debate back and forth ficer saying to the occupants of a vehicle: "The driver is 5634 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

being issued a prohibition. I understand that the pas- Hon. M. de Jong: I can refer the member to section senger has not been drinking, so I am going to impound 215.5(6), which statutorily requires the review to take the vehicle but let the passenger drive the vehicle to the place within 21 days. impound yard." That won't happen, either. There will be a tow truck, and those two individuals will have made a [C. Trevena in the chair.] bad choice. But for that bad choice, they wouldn't be in the fix they're in. Section 19 approved.

M. Farnworth: I understand what the minister is say- On section 20. ing. I just want to be clear that, again, it's because we are moving from where there was discretion — you know, M. Farnworth: Section 20 deals with the issue of seat- you've got the 24-hour…. Now we're moving to a three- belts. It "eliminates the ability of a person to obtain a day, and I want to make sure that we recognize that there certificate from the superintendent of motor vehicles or are circumstances and situations that arise. Not to take from a medical practitioner exempting the person from away from the prohibition, not to lessen the penalty, not the requirement to wear a seatbelt." to lessen the impact of the legislation, but to recognize Despite my comments that the only people who that we want to make sure that there is that flexibility that would choose not to wear seatbelts live in fly-over states deals with those situations, whether it's Highway 1 at two in the U.S. and attend tea bag conventions, I'd like to o'clock in the morning or somewhere out, you know…. ask the minister: what were the current existing sort of If you're from Port Coquitlam, and you're out in rural medical conditions that one could choose to try and say: Abbotsford, and you have no idea where you are, we're "I don't need to wear a seat belt"? What are the currently able to deal with that and not place an additional danger existing examples of the types of excuses used to not to the one that has been prevented by the prohibition on have to wear a seatbelt? the individual. So if I've got that assurance, then that's one of my concerns addressed. Hon. M. de Jong: I always think of the story about Muhammad Ali — speaking of flying places — where he B. Ralston: I had a question just about the interaction apparently got on board an aircraft, and when the light of a couple of sections. In 215.43(3), a notice of pro- came on to buckle up, the Great One said, "Superman hibition under this section "takes effect immediately on don't need no seatbelt," to which the flight attendant re- service of the notice of driving prohibition under sec- plied: "Superman don't need no airplane." tion 215.41." As the Attorney General may be aware, There have been a variety — the ones that you might, under the current provisions for the 90-day prohibition, perhaps, expect: abdominal injuries, back injuries, the prohibition doesn't come into effect for 21 days, and people claiming claustrophobia. The bottom line is that there's a seven-day period in which one can file for an in some cases there may actually be a genuine belief application for review. on the part of the person that the seatbelt is problem- So in the case of a three-day prohibition, other than, I atic. The submission and the evidence and all of the think, the possibility that on the evidence that's shown material and the requests from the medical profession at the review…. The person asked for a second sample, are built around their conclusion that there just isn't a and that was denied, and then the prohibition may be medical basis for any of those arguments. Therefore, the overturned retroactively. exemption…. [1515] [1520] It seems to me that as a practical matter, a person who I think in part what was happening, I am advised, is gets a notice of prohibition for three days or for seven that as long as the exemption applied, people were going days will be obliged to serve that prohibition, although to their physician, pressuring them to take advantage of they may be seeking review. Is that correct or not? it and give them the letter or give them the basis for the application. So on the strength of the medical position Hon. M. de Jong: I think that's a fair, practical analy- and the medical evidence, that option will no longer sis of what will happen. exist.

B. Ralston: On the administrative side, will there be M. Farnworth: I think it's important to get that on any…? The superintendent's office…. At least, my infor- the record. This is not about a civil liberties issue, tak- mation is that there are often delays due to the volume ing somebody's right away. This is about common sense. of applications that they receive. There are not that many This section is in here based on medical recommenda- review officers. So what's the present time that it takes tions, sound medical research and sound medical advice. to deal with an application for review under the current I think it's important that that is on the record for this 90-day prohibition system? section. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5635

Section 20 approved. A case of arthritis, coupled with someone who is in perhaps not an advanced stage but, certainly, in early On section 21. to intermediate stages of macular degeneration, for ex- ample. They're not at a point where their eyesight is M. Farnworth: Section 21 deals with the reporting completely gone, but coupled with the other conditions requirements of health professionals in relation to the they've got, it's best that they're not on the road. Is that ability of their patients to drive. I think this is an issue what is anticipated under the discretionary part of this that is of increasing importance as we have an aging section? population. If the minister could explain how this sec- tion and the changes that this section will make are Hon. M. de Jong: As the member was going through different from the existing legislative requirements his question and the example, I leaned next door and around physicians and of conditions affecting the abil- was told that that is precisely — multiple medical condi- ity to drive. tions for which the accumulative effect…. It's where no one single medical condition was perhaps a bar, but the Hon. M. de Jong: I think the changes can be categor- cumulative effect of those medical conditions was such ized in the following four ways. It broadens the list of as to cause a medical practitioner to question the ability health care professionals who are required to report of that person to operate a vehicle safely. in certain circumstances. So nurse practitioners, oc- I think this is — and the member has been an MLA cupational therapists are added to that list of medical long enough to know — going to become a pretty chal- professionals. lenging area as our population ages. If we haven't had It creates the authority to specify in regulation the it in our own families, we've certainly had constituents medical circumstances that trigger the requirement for come in, and it's pretty traumatic for someone that's medical professionals to report, and again, it will specify driven for 50 or 60 or 70 years. Physicians are part of by regulation the nature of the information that must be that; medical professionals are a part of that. reported in those circumstances. The short answer to the question, though, is yes. I'm It also provides a mechanism by which medical pro- not as brave, I fear, as the member. I won't even venture fessionals can, on a discretionary basis, report to the an example, because for every example, someone is go- superintendent, even where the mandatory require- ing to say: "I know someone with that, and they can still ments or circumstances are not there. drive perfectly well." But that's why we try to provide the So if a medical practitioner comes to the conclusion protection that the medical experts need to provide as that even though one of the specific thresholds has not sound a report as they can to the superintendent. been hit that requires them to report, they have concerns about the overall ability of this individual to operate a M. Farnworth: Then is part of the reason for this motor vehicle safely, it affords that medical professional change…? In essence, if someone is involved in an the protection they need to know that they can make accident and it's determined that the cause of their ac- that report, albeit a report that may lead to their patient cident is really their inability…. They should not have having their ability to drive limited or withdrawn. been on the road because they have a series of medical conditions. M. Farnworth: There are a couple of issues that this That allows…. It's to protect the physician or the does raise, and one fully understands the reasoning be- medical individual who has been treating the person for hind it. The discretionary area,I think, is one that I have those conditions, in the sense that: "You know what? You some concern around, in the fact that in deciding…. It's should have reported this." Is that one of the issues that pretty black and white, when there's a particular med- this is designed to address — so that there in essence ical condition that's reached a particular stage, to say: is no redress or no liability on the part of the medical "You know what? That means you're no longer safe. It's professional? inappropriate that you drive." [1525] Hon. M. de Jong: I think the legal protection afforded On the discretionary side. Is the intent to look at, in by this section is slightly different than that which the essence, a cumulative effect of a number of potential member has described. What we're trying to do is that disabling illnesses that are compounding on each other in situations where there is a positive obligation…. It's — that each have a cumulative effect that is leading to an either a mandatory obligation on the part of a medical impairment, an inability to drive? Neither one by itself expert to report, or in exercising their discretionary au- is an impairment that would result in a reason to pull a thority, they do so in good faith. licence, but collectively, together, they actually indicate: That report leads to testing on the part of the super- "You know what? It's probably best that this individual is intendent and could ultimately result in the patient, not driving." I'll see if I can give an example. citizen, losing their licence. There's no ability on the part 5636 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

of that patient to come back to the doctor and say: "You convicted of that alcohol-related motor vehicle offence have really complicated my life. I believe that you violated complies with the conditions of a provincial ignition the doctor-patient confidentiality, and I want to seek re- interlock program. So that's the first thing. dress from you." That is, in effect, the legal protection to With these amendments, the person will be able to the medical professional that is afforded by this section. apply to the superintendent for a reduction to their li- [1530] cence suspension to three months in the case of a first conviction, six months in the case of a second conviction B. Ralston: The obligation to report is in the previous and 12 months in the case of a subsequent conviction. section, and as the minister said, this does broaden the That is to align with the Criminal Code provisions. number of professionals to whom that obligation applies. The approval of the superintendent is subject to the I suppose the difficulty might arise in subsection (6), person equipping the vehicle they operate with the igni- where they are proposed to make regulations setting out tion interlock device and registering for and participating the medical conditions or functional impairments that in the remedial program and the ignition interlock pro- oblige those professionals named in subsection (1) to re- gram to the satisfaction of the superintendent. port and setting out the circumstances when the duty to Yes, there are costs associated. We've covered the re- report does not apply. medial program, and yes, there are costs associated with I would expect it would be so. But is this something the interlock program. They are, I'm advised, estimated that, before that regulation is drafted, the respective pro- at $1,500. So the means exist by which you can apply to fessional colleges, College of Physicians and Surgeons, reduce to 90 days, but in so doing, you have to register would be consulted on? It does involve some fairly fine and take these programs, and the interlock program will distinctions that are attempting to be drawn here. As the cost you another $1,500. minister says, and I think I understood him, the issue of patient-physician confidentiality does arise, and that's Sections 22 and 23 approved. protected in law very strongly in a number of ways. This is a departure from that. Is that the plan in terms of On section 24. drafting the regulations? [1535]

Hon. M. de Jong: Not just the plan. It's actually taking Hon. M. de Jong: I move the amendment to section 24 place as we speak. standing on the order paper in my name. [SECTION 24, in proposed sections 253 (6) and (8) and 262 (1), by deleting the text shown as struck out and adding the Section 21 approved. text shown as underlined: 253 (6) Subject to section 255 (5), a motor vehicle impounded On section 22. under section 215.46 (1) is to remain impounded for a period equal to the period that the person referred to in section 215.46 (1) is prohibited from driving under M. Farnworth: Section 22 permits a person who has section 215.43 (1) (a) or (b). been convicted of an alcohol-related driving offence and (8) If a driving prohibition is substituted, varied or revoked participates in a remedial program during the balance under section 215.5, the superintendent must, and participates in an ignition interlock program to (a) substitute or vary to the same extent or in the case of a substitution of a 3-day or 7-day prohibition have the prohibition period is shortened. for a 30-day or 90-day prohibition, revoke the Can the minister explain how this is going to work corresponding impoundment imposed under and the impact? Again, the discretionary is based on section 215.46, and the factors of the number of prohibitions, the nature of (b) in the case of a substitution of a 3-day prohibition for a 7-day prohibition, vary to the same extent the prohibition, the length of the prohibition and the the corresponding impoundment imposed programs that the individual has taken to address what- under section 215.46, if any, or ever issues the superintendent has determined — let's (c) in the case of a revocation, revoke the corres- say alcohol or drug counselling or other issues that the ponding impoundment imposed under section 215.46, superintendent feels are appropriate. and (b) subject to the lien described in section 255 (2), and to the expiry of the period of impoundment Hon. M. de Jong: I don't like to generally bore mem- in the case of a substitution or variance and the expiry bers by reading the notes, but the member has asked a of another period of impoundment, if any, under section 251 (1), order the person who has custody of lot of stuff. Why don'tI alert him to the summary note I the motor vehicle to release the motor vehicle to the have, which I think covers a lot of what he's asked? owner or a person authorized by the owner. The first thing is that the section is being amended Early release of motor vehicle on grounds of economic hardship to align with provisions of the Criminal Code. Those 262 (1) A person who (a) is the owner of a motor vehicle impounded under Criminal Code provisions presently allow for a specified section 215.46 (2) for a period of 30 days or under reduction in the court-ordered prohibition if the person section 251 (1) for a period of 30 or 60 days or, if Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5637

not the owner of the impounded motor vehicle, a for example, or a vehicle that has been armour-plated person authorized by the owner, and illegally. This would not capture any of that. That's my (b) has a valid driver’s licence and is not prohibited from driving, understanding. may, within 15 days after the impoundment of thea Okay, I wanted to be clear on that, because if it did, motor vehicle begins under section 215.46 (2) or 251 then I had some issues around that that I was going to (1), apply to the superintendent under subsection (2) of want to see addressed. this section for the release of the motor vehicle.] Hon. M. de Jong: No. Thank you; that's helpful. The On the amendment. authority for the seizure of that vehicle in those circum- stances exists via those statutory instruments, not this Hon. M. de Jong: The amendment that I've just one. moved off the order paper is designed to address what I [1540] think was, in complicated drafting, an error. We wanted to make sure that the discretionary authority that we M. Farnworth: That now brings me to the issue that spoke of with respect to impounding vehicles existed the minister has stated, which is that one of the effective for the three- and seven-day impoundments. But for the ways is the loss of the vehicle. Once it's impounded and amendment, there was some question about the discre- the loss, are there provisions or an ability to say…? Does tionary authority and it being mandatory. the Crown at this point have the ability? Does it have That's the nature of the amendment that has been to go through other legislation to say, "You know what? moved. It is to ensure that impounding vehicles You're not getting it back" — let's say, in the case of a in the case of three- and seven-day prohibitions is street race — or can that be done through this particular discretionary. piece of legislation?

Amendment approved. Hon. M. de Jong: No This is a temporary impound- ment of the vehicle. If the Crown wishes to expropriate On section 24 as amended. ownership of that vehicle, it would need to do so via other means. M. Farnworth: The issue around impoundment…. I mean, it's pretty straightforward in terms of what M. Farnworth: This is a topic…. My colleague the we've been discussing around impaired driving, either member for Surrey-Whalley may have additional issues, through alcohol or through drugs, but this also encom- and those are around the question of economic hard- passes, and the definitions deal with, the issues around ship. If the minister could outline what steps are in this racing and stunts. So this is different in the sense that it to ensure…. encompasses all those other things, such as street racing, Again, I think it's that issue of fairness, whereby it's which people are concerned about. something that's impounded and someone has the abil- I want to confirm that it would also encompass crim- ity to pay or the ability to wait. They are able to get that inal activities, such as a vehicle that's impounded in out, as opposed to someone who doesn't have those relation to, let's say, gang crime investigation. Would it resources and is, in essence, also penalized in a much include that? more significant way.

Hon. M. de Jong: Two things. The authority that this Hon. M. de Jong: I'll begin by referring to two very creates is related to driving offences. I don't want to sug- specific provisions that contemplate an application to gest that we have found a clever way to circumvent the address. One is at 262, which is "Early release of mo- more onerous civil forfeiture proceedings. Street racing tor vehicle on grounds of economic hardship." And 263 would be an example, but they are driving-related of- relates to compassionate grounds, which might relate to fences that would give rise to the authority to impound. health conditions. Those provisions are here. I should say, as well, that in terms of trying to alter be- I have — as I'm sure the member and others have — haviour, I think the mounting evidence is that for many heard from people who ask about their exposure in cases people, the loss of their vehicle is perhaps the best way where a child or a friend has borrowed the car. Yeah, that to bring home the need to alter that behaviour. becomes an added risk. Whilst some provisions exist by which people can bring that application, most people I M. Farnworth: I agree with that. I just want to come know these days are pretty busy, and this is not some- back to it, because I want to make sure I'm not missing thing that happens by itself or is automatic. something here. I'm not talking about the civil forfeiture I'm hoping — and, I think, all of us in our own ways of a vehicle, but rather…. We've dealt with legislation are hoping — that over time this will provoke a realiza- in session that's dealt with the hidden compartments, tion that when you pass your car to someone, you are 5638 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

entering into either an explicit or implied agreement, there's no public transportation, no way of getting back and if that person abuses your generosity, the conse- and forth to their employment in the town — would be quences can be felt in fairly profound ways. an eligible person? Or a person who lives, say, in remot- Anyway, I'm lecturing. I don't mean to do that. There est Abbotsford and has a job in, say, North Vancouver is, in a very specific way, a realization that people can that they commute to — there's, again, no effective public bring an application to retrieve their vehicles on grounds transportation — and requires the vehicle. Is this section of economic hardship and on the grounds of, under 262, contemplated to allow that person to seek a review? compassionate grounds. Hon. M. de Jong: In the example the hon. member M. Farnworth: I just want to pick up on that. I mean, has given, if I understood it correctly, the individual I understand what the minister is saying. would not be availing themselves of section 262(3). They [1545] would more likely be availing themselves of section 263 It's one thing to, for example, let a friend…. It's very easy in bringing the application that the member spoke of. to make that implicit: "You're taking it; you're responsible." That's one thing.A child in a family is completely different. B. Ralston: I just want to be clear, because in my past There, the idea that there is an implicit responsibility life, certainly, that was a concern that was expressed by is…. You know: "Dad, I'm taking the car" and "What? Ask many. In the previous legislation, as the minister may your mother" — right? It's, "Oh yeah, Dad said," and out you know, despite many protestations of economic hardship go. from a number of people, there was no avenue in the Those are completely different sets of circumstances, legislation, and the courts, on review, were just obliged and I think that we need to recognize that in this section. I to reject any effort to assess that reality. think we need to recognize the intent when we're putting [1550] this forward, particularly with family situations. They Compassionate grounds does mean, then, and could are often complex; they are often not straightforward. be used where a person's employment is jeopardized, We need to be able to bring some common sense in and this would be a method of seeking a review and a ensuring that someone…. It's not to take away from shortening of the impoundment of the vehicle on that the consequences, but there's a way to deal with them basis. I just want that to be clear on the record. that recognizes the complexity of family relationships and the reality of how in families sometimes decisions Hon. M. de Jong: It was with that in mind that we in- are made. I hope that that is part of the intent in this cluded 263(2) with the specific reference to the "loss or section. curtailment of employment."

Hon. M. de Jong: That would certainly be part and par- M. Farnworth: I just want to confirm that section cel of the consideration at play with respect to section 263. 265, "Owner's right against the driver," even despite…. Okay, your friend has taken a car. The vehicle ends up B. Ralston: Just a couple of questions. Section 262(1) being impounded, and the Crown is assessing the pen- refers to a person who is the owner or, if not the owner alties in the impound. You're not losing your right to of the impounded vehicle, a person authorized by the be able to recover that from the individual who caused owner. So that's not intended to be the person who…. your vehicle to be impounded. That refers to the authority to make the application, not to the person who might have been authorized by the Hon. M. de Jong: I just made the observation. I owner to drive the vehicle whose actions led to the im- would have thought that the right would have existed in poundment, I take it. I think that's relatively clear. Let the common law, but this makes it abundantly clear that me just leave that as one question. there is a right to recover. The second suggestion is….I t's clear in section 262(3) that this appears to be where the vehicle is used in a B. Ralston: Section 269, the power to make regulations, small business and is used for the purpose of operating refers back to section 255(2). I think, if I understand the the business in some way. But one often encounters, of section correctly, it authorizes the superintendent to set, course, people who are employed and work for wages by regulation, fees for storage charges. Often one of the who make similar arguments about economic hardship. results of having one's vehicle impounded is that you're I don't read section 263 in that way, although I may be required to pay storage charges, and sometimes those misreading it, because it refers more to compassionate can be, in the view of some, fairly exorbitant. grounds: "…the eligible person to suffer a loss or curtail- Is it the intention, then, to draft a regulation that ment of employment…." would set a daily maximum storage fee for the tow yard Is that intended? The person whose vehicle is seized that was storing a vehicle that was impounded under and lives 40 miles outside of Fort St. John on a farm — these sections? Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5639

Hon. M. de Jong: The short answer is yes. They are On section 2. presently regulated. They will hereafter, pursuant to these provisions, be regulated by the superintendent. L. Popham: I have one question on section 2. It's on (4). There was a need to state that theB usiness Corporations Section 24 as amended approved. Act does not apply to the college. My question is: why not? Why was that necessary to put into this act? Sections 25 to 29 inclusive approved. Hon. S. Thomson: What we're doing by creating the Title approved. college is creating a corporation, and all the rules and provisions that are in the legislation and that will be in Hon. M. de Jong: I move the committee rise and report the bylaws apply. We felt that we didn't need to have the the bill complete with amendment. Business Corporations Act and all those additional re- quirements for a corporation apply specifically to this Motion approved. because it was covered in the legislation and the bylaws. The next section. We can direct certain provisions of The committee rose at 3:53 p.m. the Business Corporations Act to apply if necessary, but it wasn't felt that it was necessary to have all those pro- The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. visions of the Business Corporations Act apply to the college. Reporting of Bills H. Bains: I have some questions about this section. Bill 14 — MOTOR VEHICLE Section 2(1) says: "The British Columbia Veterinary AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 Medical Association is continued as a corporation under the name College of Veterinarians of British Columbia." Bill 14, Motor Vehicle Amendment Act, 2010, re- Then it goes on to say: "The college consists of (a) mem- ported complete with amendments. bers of the council, and (b) registrants." Perhaps the minister could explain what is being changed here. There Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be read for the third used to be the British Columbia Veterinary Medical time as reported? Association. [1600] Hon. M. de Jong: With leave, now, Mr. Speaker. Now we're saying, according to this, that it will con- tinue to go on but the name is being changed to College Leave granted. of Veterinarians of British Columbia. Can you explain what the purpose is here? Third Reading of Bills Hon. S. Thomson: What is happening here is that Bill 14 — MOTOR VEHICLE the association is being renamed as the college and re- AMENDMENT ACT, 2010 focused under the new provisions of this legislation, this bill, to focus on the regulatory responsibility of the Bill 14, Motor Vehicle Amendment Act, 2010, read a college, the regulation and oversight of the practice of third time and passed. veterinary medicine. The other activities that the association previously Hon. M. de Jong: I call committee stage debate on performed — things like membership, development, Bill 10. advocacy, those kinds of roles — will potentially be car- [1555] ried on by another society or organization representing those interests. Committee of the Whole House The college will focus specifically on the regulation and the oversight of the practice of veterinary medicine. Bill 10 — Veterinarians Act It's a refocused initiative, and it's being renamed as the college. TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Bill 10; C. Trevena in the chair. H. Bains: It goes on to say: "The college consists of (a) members of the council…." Perhaps the minister could The committee met at 3:57 p.m. explain: what is the difference between the council and the college? And how are the members of the council Section 1 approved. appointed or elected versus the college members? How 5640 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

does that work between the two? Are they two separate executive or the directors representing animal health entities — college and council? Or they are one entity, technologists or other certification that may be envis- but they are named differently? aged under the bill. So three to five registrants elected by the members or Hon. S. Thomson: The council is the governing body, by the registrants of the college, then up to four appoin- or the governing set, of the college. The council members, tees appointed by the minister, and one additional spot, a number of them, will be registrants and can come from for a maximum of ten. the registered body, who will be the individuals who are certified as registering as a member of the college. H. Bains: As I understand it now, today there is a As we get to the other sections, you'll see that there council, and then there is an executive. Are you saying, will be up to four appointees by the minister as lay repre- then, that the only difference now is that under the new sentatives who will form part of the council. They're not structure, it's who appoints them? Under the current act, to come from the pool of registrants. Those will be in it was the membership entirely appointing, except one addition to the council members who would be elected that the province could have appointed. But now it is from the registrants. three to five coming from the members and up to four The council becomes the governing…. The board of by the provincial government. One, as I understand, was directors is the governing part of the college, and the the technical person that could be appointed. college is the summation of the registrants who are cer- So there will be a council, and then there's a college. tified by the college. It's separate, and the council is separate. Council will be the one that will actually be running and directing, mon- H. Bains: That I understand, this House understands itoring the affairs of the college. Is that how it works? and those members who are affected by the change understand. Right now I guess the best way to do that Hon. S. Thomson: Well, the college is the overall body. would be to describe what is there today and what it will The college would refer back to what the association was, look like tomorrow, after this has passed. so that's been renamed as the college. That's the overall Today the members of the veterinarian association body and the membership, registrants. The council is the elect their executive. That's how the British Columbia equivalent to the council that currently exists under the Veterinary Medical Association executive was created. legislation, with a different structure in terms of election Then they ran the affairs on behalf of its members on and appointments, as different from what is currently a day-to-day promotion of the membership, and the under the B.C. Veterinary Medical Association. licensing and disciplinary part was done by the same The college is the overall body. The council isthe executive, if I may call it that, who were elected by the governing body, and we're implementing a different members. I don't know what their term was, but after structure for that. The purpose for that is to ensure that a certain term they were elected, and they go for re- there is greater public oversight, additional lay represen- election. tation, which was one of the recommendations that came So there was one body. I don't know what the officers through the public consultation process when we under- are — a president, probably vice-presidents. Then they took the consultation. I think it's fairly straightforward would be hiring the staff, and they will be managing the in terms of…. The college replaces the association. It's affairs on behalf of the members. the overall membership. The council is the governing That's what it is today. If you could draw a picture for portion of the college. us, how will it be different under this act, if this act is passed? H. Bains: I think my description was correct, then. The only difference now, under the new act, is the Hon. S. Thomson: Under the existing act, it was makeup of the council members. Now the government called the council. All the members of the council were or the minister can appoint up to four, and the college elected from what would be, under these circumstances, will be appointing up to three to five.I s that the only dif- the registrants — other than one. There was the provi- ference, then? sion for one provincial appointee, one lay representative, to be appointed to the council. Hon. S. Thomson: The member opposite is essentially [1605] correct. That is the difference as far as the structure of Now, under this new bill, there would be a minimum the new college. There are others, and we'll get to those of three, I think it is — I'll just get this straight — elected when we deal with other sections in the bill. There are from the registrants, up to a maximum of five; up to four other differences between the powers and various other appointees appointed by the minister by ministerial aspects of the operation of the new college compared order; and additional provision for one additional ap- to the previous act and the previous association, but in pointee to the council, which, as you said, would be the terms of structure, that is the difference. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5641

J. Brar: As I understand this, to make it very clear, cludes four members from the public, which is a nice now we have the B.C. Veterinary Medical Association. balance. But I think it will only make sense if that bal- But under this, once this act becomes the law, then ance is always maintained. There may be a time when basically, we'll have the college of British Columbia there are three members on the council from the profes- veterinarians — whatever it's called — and the college sion, and it will be good to have at least three members will have a council, which will be the governing body. from the public. We understand that the makeup of that will be differ- I just want to understand the perspective from the ent than the council we have under the B.C. Veterinary minister's point of view. There must be a clear cause or Medical Association. purpose to have that balance. Is the intention here that [1610] the minister will maintain that balance, appoint public I think the question I just want to ask the mem- members so that they have public input, which can pro- ber is: how will the College of Veterinarians of British vide input for a better quality of care in the council and Columbia be different than the current B.C. veterinar- also provide some balance for making some important ian medical council? If the minister can put a little light decisions for the people of British Columbia? on there. What will be the difference between these two bodies, and what will be better when we move to a col- The Chair: If I might suggest, Member, these ques- lege from the current medical association? tions are better directed under section 4 of the bill, on the council. If the minister chooses to respond in this Hon. S. Thomson: Just before I respond to the mem- section, that's fine, but they are specifically about sec- ber opposite, I didn't introduce the staff that are here tion 4. with me when we got started. So I just wanted to intro- [1615] duce them for the record. Beside me is Tom McReynolds, the legislative analyst Hon. S. Thomson: I can respond here. Maybe that'll with the strategic policy and legislation branch in the make section 4 go quicker. Ministry of Agriculture and Lands. Behind me are Grant Just to say that the provisions that were here — min- Parnell, assistant deputy minister with the Crown land imum of three, maximum of five from the registrants in administration division, and Joe McBride, who is the the college, up to four by the minister…. It doesn't say solicitor with legal services in the Ministry of Attorney exactly four. It's up to four, and one, potentially, from General. Thank you for the opportunity to do that. the certified technologists. To respond to the question… I think the member is I think you can see clearly that the intent is to main- looking for what the change is. There are two main ele- tain that balance, and I think I can say that that was part ments of the change. One is a refocused mandate to focus of the rationale for the way it was structured in terms of primarily on the regulation of the practice of veterinary providing that range, but keeping that range both in the medicine and some other provisions that potentially number elected by the registrants and the number ap- bring in certified technicians and things as part of that. pointed by the minister. I think the other change in the structure is with the I think that our goal is to ensure we continue to have provision now for additional lay representation or lay that appropriate balance between the expertise within appointees by the minister to the council. In our view, the registrants that look after the key principle of a self- that was in response to some of the consultation that regulating organization but also that balance of ensuring we received. We will be able to appoint specific skill sets we have that strength in the lay representation to ensure through those lay appointees that will strengthen the that that is done in the public interest. operation of the council, will provide additional exper- tise beyond the specific expertise in terms of veterinary Section 2 approved. medicine. But things like legal background, governance, other On section 3. medical background — that kind of additional strength of skill set to the council will be what is envisaged there, H. Bains: I have a few questions about the duties and ensuring that the overall practice in the work of the objects of the college. I think that is what is listed in here. council is done in terms of protection and regulation of It goes on to say: the practice of veterinary medicine and in the best pub- "In carrying out its objects, the college must (a) protect the pub- lic interest. lic interest, and (b) exercise its powers and discharge its respon- sibilities under this Act in the public interest. (2) The objects of the college are as follows: (a) to establish the requirements for regis- J. Brar: The one thing I like in this act is the makeup tration of an individual as a registrant; (b) to establish, monitor of the new council under the college, which has a max- and enforce standards for the practice of veterinary medicine." imum of five members from the profession and then five My question is…. That was in place under the current members who are appointed by the minister, which in- act, and those duties were vested in the British Columbia 5642 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

Veterinary Medical Association. Now those duties will a lengthy dispute going on. I'm trying to figure out if be of the College of Veterinarians of British Columbia. Is the BCVMA…. They carried out their duties under the that correct? Are there any duties and objects changing, current act, and we have the mess that we have before or are they the same as what we have today? us. Now the college…. Simply the name changed. They still have the same rights and duties vested in the college, Hon. S. Thomson: I think, in responding, that it's im- and these are the same members. portant to look at the provisions under the objects under The minister has said on many occasions that part of the previous bill, which simply said: "The general objects the reason to bring in and update this act is to deal with of the association are to promote and increase know- the issues that the members are facing between BCVMA ledge, skill and proficiency of its members in all things and the members. So how does that change under this relating to veterinary medicine and to the veterinary act? profession." That was the object under the previous act. What I think we've done in this act is provided, Hon. S. Thomson: I've been clear in the comments through these objects, for the refocusing of the work of so far. We are changing over from the association to a the college in terms of focusing on its regulatory man- college, providing for a different governance structure. date in terms of the oversight and ensuring the correct There are also a number of other provisions, as you will conduct of veterinarians, the ethical practice of veter- see when we go through the balance of the sections, that inary medicine — all of those kinds of things. And it ensure we put standards and principles in place in terms brings in a specific reference to doing so in the public of how the college administers its responsibilities under interest. bylaws in terms of registration, investigation and disci- But it doesn't cover off those areas whichI mentioned pline throughout the balance of the bill. earlier, which was about promoting advocacy — those Essentially, the provisions are very much the same kinds of things which are now being separated. I know in terms of what the association did previously. It is a work is underway within the community for an associa- self-regulating association. We're making sure that we tion or organization that would cover off those interests. provide them with the tools necessary to operate as a Things are changing under these new objects to clearly self-regulating profession consistent with other self- focus the work of the college on the regulatory oversight regulating professions, and we've provided for a different of the practice of veterinary medicine. governance structure. In combination with a number of [1620] the other provisions of the bill, we expect that they will provide for that appropriate and strong oversight of the H. Bains: As I understand it, currently the BCVMA…. practice of veterinary medicine in British Columbia. Part of their duties were to promote and enhance the [1625] interests of their members and, at the same time, to re- ceive and investigate complaints, and also to monitor the H. Bains: So far what we've seen is that the difference veterinary medicine. The licensing and monitoring and between the current act and this act is the makeup of maintaining of the licence were also vested within their the council. The college structure remains the same, al- body, although they may have different committees. though with a different name. It was BCVMA, and now That's exactly what is said here.N ow it says that it will it's the college. How those members are appointed or be "to establish and maintain a continuing competence elected continues to be the same process. program to promote high standards for the practice of The only difference so far, if the minister could con- veterinary medicine." I think that is the responsibility firm, is the structure of the council.E ven there, the only of the BCVMA today. Whether it was in written form difference is that now the minister will be appointing listed in the act or not, that was essentially what they did. up to four members plus one layperson, as the minis- Maybe the minister can correct me if I'm wrong. ter puts it. Is that the only difference we have seen so far Then it goes on to say: "to receive and investigate com- with sections 2 and 3? plaints against registrants and former registrants and to deal with issues of discipline, professional misconduct, Hon. S. Thomson: We're going to go through the conduct unbecoming a registrant, incompetence and other provisions of the bill, I expect, but the differences incapacity." that we have seen so far are the association transitioning I think all of those rights were vested in BCVMA. Now in name to a college and the governance structure. There they will be carried out by the college. Is that correct? will still be a council. The governance structure in terms of the structure of the council will be different than in Hon. S. Thomson: Yes, I think that's correct. the previous act. As we just discussed, the duty and objects provided for H. Bains: I think the issue here is…. I think it was in this bill strengthen the focus of the role of the college brought to the minister's attention, and there has been on the regulatory oversight of the practice. The broader Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5643

provisions that were in the previous legislation around At this point I think the basic changes are the change promoting and those areas will be done separately, so in structure and the appointment of the laypersons, a that this college will strictly focus on its regulatory role. more focused set of objects in section 3 and incorpor- Those are the differences that we've seen so far. ating all of the objects that were in the previous act in terms of a self-regulating association. H. Bains: If I read 3(2)(f), it says: "to establish and employ registration, investigation and discipline prac- H. Bains: Again, my question to the minister…. If tices that are transparent, objective, impartial and fair." this is the same language that is carried over from the Could the minister explain how that is different than current act to the new act, which is very, very import- how BCVMA is governed today — under this particu- ant…. It talked about "establish and employ registration, lar section? investigation and discipline practices that are transpar- ent, objective, impartial and fair." Hon. S. Thomson: I think the important thing to note I think this is the crux of this whole dispute before us is that the objects being referred to here are the broad that the members and the associations are going through. principles. They set out the broad principles of a self- I just want to ask the minister. Currently if this language regulating organization. I think they're at the high level. is still there…. There were members who were on the That's what you want to see in a self-regulating profes- disciplinary committee. They were heard and were ac- sion. You want to see these principles and these objects tually on record. They would make comments about the maintained and adhered to as the college does its work. accused, as I call it, before they go to the table or the The detail that I think you're looking for in terms of panel to hear the complaint, showing their bias. the specifics of how those are achieved are in the fol- I mean, they seem to feel there's no remedy avail- lowing sections of the bill — as we get into the various able to them under the current act. What I'm looking specific components of this bill and the other sections, for now is: is there a remedy available to the members in terms of how those objects will be achieved, in addi- facing these disciplinary hearings, who may feel or may tion to the change in the governance structure. have evidence that there is a panel member on the disci- plinary committee who is biased? They have evidence to H. Bains: The language that we are talking about show that there is a bias expressed by that member. Is now, 3(2)(f) — is that any different than what the act there any extra avenue available, any remedy available to has today? the registrant facing these disciplinary hearings? Or is it [1630] the same as what we have today?

Hon. S. Thomson: At the basic level, the provisions The Chair: Member, I'd suggest that some of these that are incorporated in these objects are many of the issues are going to be coming up in other sections of the same provisions that were in the previous act in terms bill. If we can move on to the other sections of the bill, of laying out the responsibilities of the association and this member might be able to get some of the answers being a self-regulating organization under the previous that you're looking for. act. Clearly, in this one, one of the principles that I think B. Ralston: Just looking at the present act — in the we've achieved in defining these objects here and with "Objects" — there's one sentence which reads: "The gen- some of the separation in terms of the other role in eral objects of the association are to promote and increase terms of promoting…. By having the change in the the knowledge, skill and proficiency of its members in governance structure, the perception of a self-interest all things relating to veterinary medicine and to the vet- function changes under the new governance structure erinary profession." Obviously, this proposed section 3 — the perception of conflict of interest. is a substantial expansion of that one-sentence descrip- We're broadening the governance of the college tion of objects in the previous statute. through the new structure of the council to deal with [1635] those perceptions and those concerns. We're laying out Will the minister confirm that part of the reason to ex- in the objects a clear set of principles under which the pand the objects and specifically enumerate some of the self-regulating organization should operate. ones that the member for Surrey-Newton has referred I think they're all principles that we would agree are the committee to is to provide some assistance to poten- important, and it's what we would want to see in a self- tial legal interpretation should these matters — and we regulating organization when we look at things like, as would certainly hope that would not be the case — go to you mentioned, fair, transparent, objective and impar- the courts, that having this broad description of objects tial. Those are principles that we would all want to see in and some very specific provisions, such as (e) and (f) in a self-regulating organization overseeing a professional particular, would assist the court in deciding on how to service. interpret the statute should it become necessary? 5644 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

Hon. S. Thomson: What we were attempting and what H. Bains: So there is no other section that deals with we have done in this section, section 3, is to clarify the the question that I asked. I got the answer. I appreciate objects of the college, to strengthen the objects, to make that. The remedies are the courts, as they exist today. it clear for the members of the college and the council, I guess my next question would be…. Under this sec- which will be overseeing this, what their role is, what the tion, if the college is found to be, or the members feel key principles that they need to do are in terms of under- that they are, making bylaws or changing bylaws as they taking their responsibilities as a self-regulating profession. did in the past — for example, the language proficiency We have made these objects consistent with other test…. If they come up with that kind of bylaw again, the self-regulating professions. It was an attempt to broaden only remedy available to the members today, which they those, to make it more clear and to make the role of the would feel…. In the past they felt that it was systemic college focused in its efforts to ensure that we got the discrimination to keep certain members out. As a re- administration and the oversight of the practice in the sult, they went to human rights, and finally theBC VMA best public interest. realized that that was not the right thing to do, so they withdrew that. So that language proficiency test is no H. Bains: The Chair ruled that this, the question that longer there. I asked earlier, is dealt with in further parts of this act, Right now, if the minister could confirm that that scen- perhaps. I went through it, and the question that I asked ario is still there — that if the members feel that this college under 3(f)…. I don't see any other place in this act that is coming up with bylaws that may be discriminatory in would deal with the question that I asked. their eyes, the only remedy they have is human rights or The question that I asked was: currently, if this the courts. Is that correct? language exists in the act today, how is it that the com- [1645] plainants feel that they have no remedy available to them in case the panel members hearing the disciplin- Hon. S. Thomson: The principles and the objects re- ary procedures are found to have made comments that quire the processes to operate and the bylaws to operate are biased prior to going to the hearing? in the public interest, to be established so that the college Maybe the minister could help me. Where is that sec- operates in the public interest. Obviously, discrimina- tion to deal with that for the complainant or the person tory bylaws would not be in the public interest. who's going through the hearing on disciplinary mat- If you've read through the new bill, you will note the ters, if they find that one or more of the panel members provision that there is the authority for the minister to have shown bias prior to the hearing taking place? If amend or alter bylaws in the public interest if required. there's another section, then I'll wait. Perhaps the minis- I'm not expecting that, and I am hoping that would not ter could help us with that. be a provision that would have to be used. But in the [1640] event that there was a theoretical situation where some- thing like that was potentially happening, that authority Hon. S. Thomson: I think what the member opposite exists in this legislation. is looking for…. What we have done is put it in the new bill — strengthen the objects of the college. We've put J. Brar: Yes, I just want to ask one last question on in place processes and principles to have that transpar- this one. The members for Surrey-Newton and Surrey- ency, that objective fairness and impartiality. There are Whalley have asked a number of questions. And just to new provisions in dealing with the operation of disci- get clarification on one particular area,I want to ask the pline that's in committees and the bylaw processes that last question on that one, so we have absolutely clarity will all be determined. on that one, particularly 3(f) — "to establish and employ The remedy that I think the member opposite is look- registration, investigation and discipline practices that ing for is…. Those remedies exist currently, and those are transparent, objective, impartial and fair." remedies will exist under the new bill. Those remedies Keeping in mind that the British Columbia Veterinary are the courts. We haven't written into these provisions Medical Association is to continue as a corporation dealing with the issue of, specifically, the bias that the under the name of College of Veterinarians of British member opposite is referring to. Columbia, and keeping in mind the history of this What we have written into these provisions is to estab- dispute, which the member for Surrey-Newton has lish the council or the college with the governance that mentioned, I would like to get assurance from the min- we expect will bring in these principles under the ob- ister as to when the same members who have been part jects. We'll operate in that manner. But if, during those of that conflict will be rolled out as the members of the processes, there are those concerns, then the remedies new college? exist outside this legislation, outside this bill as far as How are they going to abide by these objectives or remedies to the court and other avenues, just as is hap- duties of the college under which they have to estab- pening currently. lish new rules, particularly for the disciplinary hearings, Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5645 which are objective and transparent? There's a historic erning structure in a membership-based organization. bias. There is organizational memory there. So what So I think it's pretty straightforward. It just says that one checks and balances will the minister put in place to en- of their responsibilities as the council is to govern in sure that it is done that way? accordance with the act, with the regulations and with [1650] bylaws that'll be established by the membership.

Hon. S. Thomson: I think the main response to this is H. Bains: It says: "The council must govern, con- that first of all, when we move to the new legislation, we'll trol and administer the affairs of the college." So how be able to appoint as quickly as possible and transition does the council control and administer the affairs the additional lay representation to the council. We have, of the college? Is there some…? If you look at the col- throughout the provisions of the new bill, more descrip- lege, there are duties and objects of the college. They are tion and prescriptive processes around how the functions clearly defined. There's a whole section here. But under are to run under discipline and investigation and those "Council," it hardly gives anything other than the general aspects of the role of the self-regulating profession. statement. If you look well ahead in the proposed legislation as [1655] well, you'll see the provision where the minister has the What powers do they have over the college? That's responsibility or has the ability to set an election process what my question is, because I asked the question pre- in the transition period. That will allow the membership viously. The minister can make bylaws under section and the registrants to choose members of the council 28 if the minister feels that that is in the best interests from the registrants. of the public. But does the council have certain powers All of those provisions will take place in the transition when the council members feel that the college is mak- to the new college, and with the refocused definitions ing bylaws that may not be in the best interests of the of the objects, with the additional lay representation in public? Do they have those powers? Or do they simply terms of the governance, it's my expectation that the col- make certain policies and then let the college run the lege will manage its role as a self-regulating organization way they want to run according to these regulations and in the public interest. these bylaws? I'm just trying to figure out what powers the council Section 3 approved. has over the college when you talk about controlling and administering the affairs of the college.C an they actually On section 4. direct them that their actions are wrong? Can they ac- tually say: "The decisions you made in your last meeting H. Bains: Section 4(1) — the language says here: are not according to the act and the regulations, the by- "The council must govern, control and administer the laws"? Do they have those powers? affairs of the college in accordance with this Act, the regulations and the bylaws." Perhaps the minister could Hon. S. Thomson: The council undertakes its func- explain what powers under this language the council tions by adhering to the act, to the regulations and to has over the college. What, on a day-to-day basis, will the bylaws. We've got, coming up in the next 25 sec- the council be doing as, it says, it is governing "the af- tions or so, all the provisions of how the council does fairs of the college"? that. The council makes bylaws to establish committees. What will be the duties of council? The rest of the sec- The council sets bylaws in place for approval of bylaws. tion talks about the makeup of the council, but this is The council sets in place bylaws which are voted on by the only one that talks about what their duties are. Can the membership for the election processes and things. the minister explain how they will be governing the af- That's how the council undertakes its governance role fairs of the college? — by adhering to the act, by setting the bylaws by which the college will operate. Hon. S. Thomson: This section, section 4(1) — sim- ply, I think it's very straightforward. What it says is that H. Bains: That clarifies a little more than what we had the council, who are the elected members from the regis- before. trants and the appointees that will be appointed as the I'm looking at the structure of a company. There's a members of the council through the lay appointment board of directors. They are in overall charge of the com- process…. This simply says that, in conducting their pany. They hire a CEO, and the CEO runs the affairs. work, they have to do it in accordance with the act, with the provisions of this act, with any regulations that'll be [L. Reid in the chair.] in place and within the bylaws that'll be established. That's very basic. That sets out the role of the board So I'm looking here. Is it a similar structure here — — essentially, the board of directors — or any other gov- that the council will hire the registrar or the executive 5646 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

director, that the executive director will report to the Commissioner to ensure that that was appropriate and council, not to the college, and that the registrar will received that approval. run the affairs of the college as a full-time officer or staff [1705] member? I'm just trying to compare the company struc- I'm new to this process, so I will take the advice of the ture. If this is the same here, perhaps the minister could Chair that if there is anything inappropriate in terms of explain that to us. his participation here currently, that will be at the dir- [1700] ection of the Chair. I was not intending to do anything inappropriate here. Hon. S. Thomson: The college is the same as any other self-regulating profession. It's set up as a corporation. The Section 4 approved. council is essentially the board of directors. The board of directors will establish the bylaws and the processes. On section 5. The balance of the bill talks about how those bylaws are approved. Presumably, the council will establish of- J. Brar: Section 5: the council may "by bylaw establish ficers of the council — president, vice-president — as a registration committee, an investigation committee part of those bylaw processes. The council will engage and a discipline committee." I just want to understand: the registrar and staff for the college. The membership, what is the difference between the investigation com- which is the college, in the majority of the cases approves mittee and the discipline committee? the bylaws that the council will establish. Hon. S. Thomson: The investigation committee as es- J. Brar: I just want to ask one question on this section tablished here under this section — that's the step that as well. The minister may appoint four lay members on looks at and investigates any complaints and then would the council. So the minister has those powers. I just want make a determination on whether it would move to a to ask the minister: what will be the guiding principles discipline hearing or not. The discipline committee is for appointing those members? Will there be a gender the process that would undertake that discipline hearing balance? Will there be people from the ethnic commun- if the investigation committee recommended that that ity? And will there be regional representation when the was the step that needed to be taken. minister makes the decisions about those members? J. Brar: If I'm clear about that, there will be two stand- Hon. S. Thomson: As I mentioned earlier, the ap- alone committees. That's what I understand from the proach to the lay representatives will be managed comment made by the minister. One will be an inves- through the board resourcing office, and that'll be the tigation committee, and the other will be a discipline merit-based approach to the appointments. I talked committee. about the need to have the skill set that helps ensure that My understanding, as I think it works, is that there the college operates in the public interest. I talked about is a stand-alone discipline committee, and as needed, just some general things like legal background, like that committee or the council establishes an investiga- ability and strength in governance, things like a good tion committee for a particular case. But the minister is background in dispute resolution processes — those telling me something different here — that there will be kinds of things. But that will be managed through the a stand-alone investigation committee. That committee board resourcing process on a merit-based approach. will do the investigation and then hand it over to an- other subcommittee, which is the discipline committee B. Ralston: In discussing matters with his staff, I of the council. If that's what it is, I would like the minis- notice that the minister was also consulting with the ter to confirm that. member for Kamloops–North Thompson, who appears to be in the group of officials who are advising the min- Hon. S. Thomson: If the question is if there are two ister now. I understand that the member is a former stand-alone committees, the answer is yes. member of the College of Veterinarians, and I'm just wondering if the minister could advise whether he is J. Brar: Thank you for the clarification. Can the satisfied that that's within the bounds of propriety for a minister tell us how many members will be on each member of the House. committee, and will those committees have a public member as well? Hon. S. Thomson: Just to clarify. You will know that [1710] the member for Kamloops–North Thompson spoke in the second reading of the bill. He's a non-voting mem- Hon. S. Bond: I seek leave to make an introduction. ber of the association. In speaking to second reading of the bill, he did check with the Conflict-of-Interest Leave granted. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5647

Introductions by Members On section 12. [1715] Hon. S. Bond: On behalf of my colleague from Prince George–Mackenzie, I wanted to take the opportunity L. Popham: "The council may by bylaw do any of the this afternoon to welcome a group of students who have following in relation to the registration of individuals as made the long trek from Prince George. We don't often registrants: (a) establish requirements for registration or get to welcome students to the Legislature. We wish we reinstatement of registration, including requirements had that opportunity more often, but it means a very respecting…." The third bullet is: "the provision of evi- long bus ride for this group of 27 students. dence of good character." I'm just wondering how that They are not only great students; they're great musi- will be established. cians. They are here on a band trip. They've just finished their tour of the Legislature and now wanted to see the Hon. S. Thomson: Those provisions, all the provisions Legislative Assembly in action. It's a much quieter time referenced there — the standards, the competencies — of the day. Question period is earlier in the day and will be established as part of the bylaw that the council much more — what should I say? — energetic than it is will develop and that will be taken to the membership. this afternoon, but we're very pleased to have you here in the precinct. Sections 12 to 48 inclusive approved. We want to take this opportunity to welcome Mr. Toyata, their teacher, and the other adults that have ac- On section 49. companied you here to Victoria. We're glad that you've L. Popham: "Inspections, Complaints, Investigations done that, and we hope you enjoy your stay and wish and Discipline." What would be the criteria used in ap- you a safe journey back to Prince George on that long pointing a person or persons as inspectors? bus ride tomorrow. Thank you for coming; we're glad you're here. Hon. S. Thomson: I think the question from the member opposite was: what would be the qualifications Debate Continued of the inspector? I think that when the council are hiring an inspector, they would look for somebody who under- Section 5 approved. stood the business, knew the work of the council, the work of veterinarians. On section 6. It would be the same as any other inspector hired to do building inspection or other processes like that. I ex- L. Popham: Section 6 deals with bylaws regarding pect that they would develop some qualifications that council elections: "The council must by bylaw…(f) an inspector would have and would recruit and hire provide for the remuneration and expenses of council accordingly. members." My question is: how much will the council members be given for their election process? Is there a L. Popham: As far as the bylaws go, I'm wondering: spending limit for this election, and will members be would there be any more public consultation before the able to provide their own financial assistance for the bylaws are finalized? election? Hon. S. Thomson: The matter of developing the by- Hon. S. Thomson: Before I respond specifically to laws will be the responsibility of the council. They may that question, I think that I didn't get a chance to an- or may not wish to do some further consultation in de- swer the question on section 5 quickly before we moved veloping those bylaws. That's not the responsibility of to there. Just to very quickly respond to that one for the the government or the ministry. It will be the respon- member opposite…. The composition of the commit- sibility of the council to establish the bylaws that are tees will be established by bylaws, and there's nothing required under the new legislation. that would prevent a non-registered member to be part [1720] of one of those committees, but the council will estab- lish by bylaw the composition of their committees. L. Popham: Will there be conferring with the minis- On section 6, then, the remuneration and expenses ter before establishing those bylaws as permanent? of council members…. That refers to the remuneration and expenses for serving as a member of the council Hon. S. Thomson: It's not required, but we would ex- once you're elected. pect, I think, that we would have a working relationship at staff level with the council as they're developing their Sections 6 to 11 inclusive approved. bylaws. They know ultimately the ministerial authority 5648 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010 with respect to the bylaws, so my expectation is that there be taken. That needs to be taken under court direction. would be a working relationship at our staff level as they They need court approval before doing that. develop those. But it's not a requirement in the legislation. L. Popham: I do want to discuss section 53(2), be- L. Popham: I guess I'm wondering if the minister cause it relates to the one I'm doing now. I'm not sure will be requesting availability of those bylaws and if he if I'm allowed to discuss that. Can I discuss that now to feels that it's necessary to sign off on them before they're help clear it up? finalized. The Chair: Okay, proceed. Hon. S. Thomson: I think, as I referenced in the re- [1730] sponse to the previous question, we expect that we would have a working relationship at the staff level as L. Popham: In section 53(2). I'll read it to you: "Unless they develop the bylaw. In some of the provisions that the court otherwise directs, an application under sub- we've just approved in passing the previous sections, section (1) may be made without notice to any person there are notification requirements, posting require- and may be heard in private." I guess I'm understanding ments, for the bylaws. from the previous answer that that's simply under court In terms of if I would be signing them off, the answer order that that would happen, but if you could clarify would be no, but the expectation is that we would have that for me — how it doesn't contradict the previous that working relationship as their bylaws are developed. section.

L. Popham: I'm moving to (4): "An inspector may ex- Hon. S. Thomson: Go back again to section 49, which ercise powers under subsection (3) in respect of premises is the inspection process, which is, you know, where, as used as a private residence only if (a) the inspector be- part of the investigation…. We're thinking that there's lieves on reasonable grounds that the private residence something we'd like to look at. We have reasonable is being used as business premises by a registrant." I'm grounds to think that it's something that needs looking bringing this one up because I think inspecting a private at. It would require the consent to come in to do it as home is a very serious matter. I'm wondering how "rea- part of an investigation process, in responding to a com- sonable grounds" is defined. plaint to see whether there is justification for it, to see [1725] whether there are further steps required that may move things towards a disciplined hearing or those sorts of Hon. S. Thomson: I think it's important here to note things. that there are two provisions to this section. One is the When we get into the next section, that is a situation test of reasonableness and reasonable grounds. The other where there are reasonable grounds, that there is some- is that the powers are exercised with the consent of the thing that you need to enter a premise to deal with. It occupant. If there isn't consent, then there wouldn't be does require court approval to do that. You would have the search. But I think the test of reasonableness goes to go to the court with all the grounds and the justifi- back to…. There has to be an honest belief. It has to be cation for why that action needed to be taken. So the on an objective basis and be seen to be reasonable. It's sections deal with two different things. important to note that there is both that and requiring the consent of the occupant. Sections 49 to 81 inclusive approved.

L. Popham: My understanding of reasonable On section 82. grounds…. If we're moving ahead to section 53(2), I think that it seems to contradict part (4) in section 49. L. Popham: I would like to move an amendment on I'm wondering if you could comment on that. section 82. [1735] Hon. S. Thomson: I wanted to make sure I was clear which further section the member opposite was refer- The Chair:H on. Members, the proposed amendment ring to. Section 53 and 53(4) deal with search and seizure is out of order with respect to Standing Order 67, as it with the requirement of a court order. Section 49, which potentially would generate public expenditure. we're dealing with, deals with inspections. There's a difference between inspection where you have Amendment ruled out of order. reasonable grounds to do an inspection and it requires the consent of the occupant, as opposed to moving to J. Brar: Madam Chair, this is about the transition. I the section on search and seizure, which is where there think the key issue, which we believe should be taken is a clear view that there is an issue and action needs to care of once this legislation becomes law, is that there Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5649

has been ongoing conflict that we hope this will take the rules for disciplinary hearings, including setting up care of, and in the future that there's a better mechanism a committee to continue hearings under the discipline and better communication between all the members of procedures. the new College of Veterinarians of B.C. My concern is that if the same council member, even Under the transition of this act, the old council, basic- in the absence of four appointed members which the ally, will become the council of the new College of minister has the power to appoint under this law, and Veterinarians of British Columbia. I would like to ask that may not be there…. So it will be basically exactly the minister under that as to what assurance the minis- the same council which is there now, and that will basic- ter can give that the bias or the perceived bias, which is ally be the transition council until the election takes there already among the members…. How will that be place. So clearly, if you look at the history of that coun- taken care of? cil, the test-for-English requirement is a clear indication What checks and balances will the minister put in about the mindset and the paradigm of thinking of that place to ensure that that bias or the organizational mem- group. ory does not carry on with the transition from the old Having said that, my question, again, to the minis- council to the new council? ter is: what checks and balances will the minister put in [1740] place to ensure that the old memory from the old con- flict does not just move on with the council transition Hon. S. Thomson: I think I've addressed the answer when we move from the old council to the College of to this question at length in the early part of the debate Veterinarians of British Columbia? on the clause-by-clause sections of this bill when we were talking earlier about the structure of the council, Hon. S. Thomson: This is a timing issue, essentially. the steps taken to add the lay members to the govern- The transition provisions that are provided here are ance, the steps taken to clarify the objects, the steps meant to be transition, meant to be temporary. The min- taken within the more prescriptive nature of the provi- ister does have the authority in this section to appoint the sions around investigation, inspection, discipline, all the lay individuals as quickly as possible, so that could hap- sections that we've dealt with already under the bill. pen before the first election takes place. So we can move In transition, the assurance that I can give the mem- to add that lay representation as quickly as possible. ber opposite is that we have thought very carefully about The current lay representative also provides for the transition in terms of providing the transitionary clauses provision that the current lay representative that we have here. We will move as quickly as possible. You have to appointed to the council can continue. As you'll note in recognize that we want to do this in an orderly manner the section, the minister also may by order specify the in terms of transitioning to the new college and transi- date for that election to take place. tioning in the new structure and some time to get the [1745] bylaws established. But we will move as quickly as we As I said in response to the earlier question, we will can in an orderly transition to the new council. work as quickly as we can in this transition. But we do We believe that the legislation, or the bill that's being want to make sure we do it in an orderly manner and proposed here, provides for that ongoing governance make sure we don't have any gap in the regulatory over- structure under the self-regulating profession, as I men- sight of the college or the association now transitioning tioned earlier. We expect that they will operate in the to the college. We will move to do this transition as public interest moving forward, and we think we've quickly as we can but in an orderly, thoughtful way. taken the steps to ensure that that will be the case. B. Ralston: The act confers upon the minister fairly J. Brar: As I understand section 82, it says: "… until 3 broad discretionary powers, including the ability to ap- council members referred to in section 4(2)(a) are first prove bylaws or not and the power to appoint public elected under this Act, the council consists of (i) the members and also to intervene more broadly. I suppose members of the former council, and (ii) the individuals, the concern that's being expressed by my colleague, if I if any, appointed by order of the minister under the for- could add to what he said, is that…. I think he's seek- mer Act or under section 4(2)(c) of this Act…." It's sort of ing an assurance that in this transitional period, where confusing for me. If the minister can give clarification. complaints that were previously before the old council My understanding from this, by the way, is that until will be continued…. the election of the college takes place — I don't know Is the minister prepared to give the assurance that how much time it will take — the current council of the should this legislation pass, which appears to be imminent, BCVMA is going to continue as the new council of the he will commit to, within the bounds of the new statute, college. If that is true, my concern in that situation is making sure the complaints process is conducted fairly? that that is the council the minister is giving the pow- I think, rightly or wrongly…. I know there are those in the ers and responsibility to, to establish the rules, including profession who disagree with this, but there are certainly 5650 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

strongly held views on both sides — the minister is fam- efficiently as possible, in consultation with the current iliar with the history here — that intervention or at least association, to put the new governance structure in the prospect of intervention by the minister or the pos- place and the new provisions of this bill. sibility may encourage a more orderly and I suppose less conflict-ridden resolution of the complaints that are Sections 82 to 104 inclusive approved. currently before the council. Title approved. Hon. S. Thomson: The act and the provisions do not authorize the minister to intervene in a specific case. Hon. S. Thomson: I move that the committee rise That would be inappropriate. WhatI have said is that we and report the bill complete without amendment. will, based on the transitional provisions, move to tran- sition in an orderly manner and as quickly as we can and Motion approved. as reasonably under the circumstances in moving from one association to a new college. There are the provi- The committee rose at 5:52 p.m. sions to move as quickly as we can to appoint additional lay representation in terms of the governance structure The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. in the council. We can make sure that things happen in a manner as Report and quickly as possible because we have the ability to estab- Third Reading of Bills lish the date of the first election to elect the new council. But I think it's important that we do that in consultation Bill 10 — Veterinarians Act and cooperation with the existing association. They're professionals. They've done a good job in self-regulating. Bill 10, Veterinarians Act, reported complete without We're giving them a bit more prescriptions, a more fo- amendment, read a third time and passed. cused approach, more focused objects. We need to do that as quickly as we can to get the new council and the new Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported college operating, and we need to allow the membership to resolution, was granted leave to sit again. have that election process that would establish their regis- tration on the new council. The assuranceI can give is that Hon. P. Bell moved adjournment of the House. we'll do that as quickly as we can in an orderly manner. Motion approved. B. Ralston: I wasn't suggesting that the minister inter- vene in any specific complaint.B ut if the minister's view Mr. Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 10 becomes the way in which the previous body of com- a.m. on Tuesday morning. plaints is being adjudicated, as I understand the objects of the legislation and the powers that are given to the The House adjourned at 5:53 p.m. minister, there is the power to intervene. Is that a correct interpretation of the jurisdiction that's conferred upon the minister in this act? PROCEEDINGS IN THE [1750] DOUGLAS FIR ROOM I would say I have every confidence that that will be exer- cised fairly by the minister in this case. As we know, the Committee of Supply history here is a very vexed one, and I think we're all look- ing forward to happier relations within the association. ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF COMMUNITY AND RURAL DEVELOPMENT Hon. S. Thomson: The assurance that I provided is that we will move in the transition as quickly as we The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); H. can to put the new governance structure in place and Bloy in the chair. to work with the association. To do that, the transition provisions do provide for the situation where…. There The committee met at 2:34 p.m. may be a couple of current cases, and the provisions that we have there deal with those. Unless the decision has On Vote 26: ministry operations, $302,121,000. been made, then it moves to the new structure. I think my efforts, following passage of this bill, will The Chair:Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to be to make sure that we do that. My focus will be to the Douglas Fir Room. We're doing the budget estimates make sure that we do that transition as quickly and as on the Ministry of Community and Rural Development. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5651

If I could remind all members in the gallery that they that includes enough funding to fund all of the $165 can't use any portion of their audio equipment and they million in projects that have to be completed by March cannot talk with members. That blue ribbon across the 31, 2011. There's also $41.1 million that is known as the front is like an invisible glass, so you'll have to send them strategic community investment fund, which is the traf- electronically or meet them out in the hallway. fic fine revenues and the small community grants. Minister, do you want to make opening statements or There's also a larger number…. Well, probably ifI give introductions? the member those two numbers, that would give him a [1435] sense of where the increase is coming from — so mainly, it consists of infrastructure funding and then the final Hon. B. Bennett: First of all, there are a number strategic community investment fund payment, which ministry staff over here that I'll introduce as they come was the $41.1 million. up here to help me out. Sitting beside me is, of course, Deputy Minister Dale Wall, and behind me is Assistant S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. Well, my Deputy Minister Shauna Brouwer. understanding, if I read it correctly, is that $32 million of I'm actually not going to make introductory remarks the money that's transferred is coming out of the Rural about the ministry. I think time is fairly short. I'd rather Secretariat. give the time to my colleague across the way to ask ques- [1440] tions, if it's okay with him. I think he knows what we do Is that just a straight change of ministry, or is it just a in the ministry, so I think we'll just turn it over to him. change of authority over that money? Sometimes when the moneys change from ministry to ministry, it's hard S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister, and welcome to your to track what services are going with it and what the staff and your deputy.I appreciate the fact that we didn't rationale is for that move. Let me just go to that one spe- do the opening statements with any length, because we cifically, then. have only this afternoon, I believe. The ministry is a far- reaching one in many ways. There are many issues and Hon. B. Bennett: I think the $30 million number many responsibilities that we will not have time today, that the member is asking about is coming out of the I believe, to actually get into. There will be a few times Rural Secretariat component of the ministry. It has to do where I have just a couple of colleagues coming in to ask with the province's matching money for the community some specific questions, but for the most part,I guess I'll development trust — you know, the job opportunities be running the show on the critic's side here. program, etc. The feds put in $30 million, and we put in I've been attending the local government annual meet- $30 million, so that's our $30 million showing up there. ings that have been happening throughout the province. The minister has been travelling, of course, throughout S. Fraser: I'll probe the community development the province with those, too, so our paths have crossed quite a few times lately. I've certainly been following the trust maybe a little later in this session here. But in my comments that the minister has been making as we were understanding, wasn't it $47 million that was from the coming up to this estimates process, and I appreciate federal government? Wasn't that their portion that's on his providing the information to local governments. Of the table there? I'd calculated it at $32 million from the course, that's a key part of this ministry. Rural Secretariat and about $47 million from the federal I note that there are some significant service trans- government. There's quite a discrepancy there. Can the fers, funding transfers, to the ministry — this year only, minister comment? for the most part. There's an increase of, I guess, just under $160 million since September. That's transfers Hon. B. Bennett: You know what? I'm going to have in services to the ministry. It's sort of a one-time thing, to guess — not at the numbers, because I know what the one-year thing. Can the minister explain the rationale province put in to match the federal money. I also know for that, please? what the federal component was, and it was $30 million, so it was $30 million each. Hon. B. Bennett: I might have to do this in pieces, so My guessing is about the increment above the $30 I'll give the best answer I can. I'm not sure that I fully million. I think the member used a number of $40-some- understand where the member got the $160 million fig- odd million. What I would guess is that that probably is ure, so we may have to go back and forth a couple of a carryover from the earlier part of the community de- times to get at what the member has asked. velopment trust program. It was a $129 million program Our budget for the ministry has actually increased by over, I think, about three years. Some of that money was 72 percent this year. It's roughly $130 million, and that still being spent when we got another $30 million from gets you up to the $309 million total. To explain what the feds, and we put $30 million in ourselves. That's that consists of, there's $195 million for infrastructure probably where that number comes from. 5652 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. not flow-through federal dollars. These are provincial Local government services and transfers have in- dollars that we use to match with the federal dollars. creased by $159 million since September. Some of that — $58 million of that, if I read it correctly — is for a S. Fraser: Thank you to the minister for that clarifi- one-year commitment. I don't think that's expected to cation. If we move to the 2011-2012 fiscal, the numbers extend beyond 2010-2011. The way I read it, by 2011- drop dramatically. I think it's showing about $89 mil- 2012 the funding for local government services and lion. That's in funding for local government services and transfers would again, in essence, be cut by $89 million transfers. There's quite a significant drop from this fis- for 2011-2012. cal to next. Can the minister elaborate and explain that, Essentially, the budget increase that the minister is re- please? ferring to, this 70-plus percent, is like a one-shot…. It's [1450] an anomaly as such — is it not? [1445] Hon. B. Bennett: To the member's question, same sort of answer as to the question before, with differ- Hon. B. Bennett: I think the member is referring to ent numbers. There is not a deduction, but there is less the restated estimates — what was stated last spring and money in the budget in the fiscal year 2011-12 generally. what was stated more recently. There's roughly a differ- But there's some new money that year as well. I just want ence of $160 million. The explanation for that is that the member to know what the difference is. there was an increase — a considerable increase — in Essentially, the bulk of the decrease is due to the fact funding and then there was a decrease in some parts of that most of the infrastructure money will have been the budget. I'll just tell the member what the increases paid out by then — not all of it. Not all of the program were and what the decreases were, and he can do the money will have been paid out, but a lot of it will have math. It will come out to roughly $160 million. been paid out, and that constitutes a good share of the In terms of the increases, there was $169.5 million for difference. additional infrastructure stimulus expenditures. That There's also…. The traffic fine revenue program included things like the Building Canada fund commun- and small community grant program will be paid ities component. It included a big number within that fully, 100 percent. That'll be a little higher in that year. $169 for the Building Canada top-up and the infrastruc- So that's going to go up a little bit, but the infrastruc- ture stimulus programs. Those are the programs where ture dollars flowing through the ministry will be down the projects have to be completed by March 31, 2011. considerably. It also included $17.5 million to complete the Towns for Tomorrow program, and it included $2 million for S. Fraser: The funding, the drop…. I mean, this is additional planning and procurement of the CRD sew- stimulus money that's in there right now, whether it's age treatment plan. the Building Canada money or the…. Arguably, it's for Those items make up the increase. The decrease is stimulus for local governments and communities. You constituted by a reduction of $17 million that is re- know, in these tough economic times you can't argue lated to the small community grants and the traffic fine that. So that stimulus, that portion will be used up. That revenue-sharing grants, plus a $12 million reduction will be finished with next year. in the infrastructure programs and the B.C. commun- Are there any thoughts from the minister regarding ity water improvement program due to the maturity of what impact that drop will have on stimulating the econ- those programs. If you take the increases and subtract omy and stimulus to the communities? the decreases, you'll come up with a $160 million overall increase in the budget. Hon. B. Bennett: It's a good question. I do think that the timing of the infrastructure program that we an- S. Fraser: The Building Canada stuff — that's federal nounced over the past — oh, goodness — year and a dollars. So this is an amalgam of federal and provincial half, I guess, couldn't have been better, actually. I think dollars. The sourcing of this is…. The province has a role the federal government's timing was good as well. to administer, but they're not necessarily the providers There were a fair number of infrastructure projects of the money. It's more of an administrative role. Is that announced a little more than a year ago, prior to last correct? spring's provincial election. Then, of course, this past fall there were a huge number of infrastructure projects Hon. B. Bennett: I'm pleased to inform the member announced. In fact, it was the single largest infrastruc- that he's not correct about that. That's all provincial money. ture program in the history of the province announced Most of these programs — not all of them, but most of this past fall. them — are…. The major infrastructure programs are a The member is right to suggest that that was intended third-third-third. These are provincial dollars. These are to stimulate the economy in all of the regions of the Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5653

province, and I think it is doing that and will continue their third as a level of government that I don't think to do that. A lot of public dollars are being spent in small is even recognized constitutionally? I mean, even if the towns, villages, regional districts and big cities, and that infrastructure projects are vital to the communities, es- will continue for the next couple of years. pecially small rural communities, often great challenges Those kinds of investments by government, by the are there for them to actually come up to the table and provincial government and by the federal government, match the fiscal might of the provincial and the federal aren't the kinds of investments that any government can governments. Can the minister comment, please? afford to make year after year after year. They're done in unusual circumstances, I think, and done as quickly as Hon. B. Bennett: The member is correct in the way you can get the projects organized and evaluate them he characterizes the situation, with the federal and prov- and then get the money paid out. incial governments being constitutionally supported at Then the belief of government is that the private sec- levels of government, whereas the local government is a tor will start, as the economy improves, to pick up the delegated form of government. slack in terms of the investment that will then stimulate I think he also makes a fair point that some local gov- our economy in the province and across the country. ernments, particularly smaller ones, are challenged to I would say, with some caution, that there's lots of come up with the one-third that they are obligated to evidence right now indicating that that's exactly what's come up with on some of the major infrastructure pro- happening. As the public infrastructure dollars do what grams. Of course, that's exactly why this government they're intended to do, the private sector is coming back, created the Towns for Tomorrow program, where local I think, fairly steadily now, and you'll see a lot of private governments with a population base of 5,000 or less only sector investment in British Columbia over the next sev- have to pay 20 percent of the infrastructure project, and eral years. That will, I think, fit very nicely, timing-wise, the province will pay the other 80 percent. with the timing of the expenditure of these public dollars. Communities that have 15,000 or less pay 25 per- I guess the only other thing I would say to the cent of the cost, and the province pays 75 percent of the member's question is that there are regularly joint infra- cost for those communities. When you get above 15,000 structure programs between the provinces and the population — and it's always difficult to know where to federal government. I have no doubt that there will be draw the line — the theory is that you get to a critical another one when the federal government is in a pos- mass of opportunity for local government in terms of ition to put forward some of their dollars. We will, as we property taxes that allows them to raise the money they always do, match them and put forward a program to lo- need to pay the one-third of the infrastructure project cal government and give them an opportunity to invest cost. in their roads, sewer systems, water systems and the rest I would also suggest to the member that the Municipal of their infrastructure. Finance Authority has been a great partner for local gov- [1455] ernment in allowing them or enabling them to access Typically, if you look at the history of these programs, the funds they need to gather up the one-third. there are always two or three or sometimes even four Having said that, the member's question is: do you years between these programs, so I wouldn't expect talk much with local governments about their strug- anything for the next couple of years. But there will be gles to come up with money for infrastructure projects? another one. Absolutely. They tell me all the time that it's a struggle, and sometimes I tell them that it's a struggle at this end, S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. He was ac- as well, to come up with money to do the things that we tually heading down where I was going with this, with want to do. So we all struggle, I guess, at every level of the infrastructure grants. The one-third, one-third, one- government. third model has been used extensively, certainly as the But I do think the Towns for Tomorrow program is a federal government's transfers have changed since a few great program. We've got another $17½ million that will decades ago. be going out this year through that program to those It's often, as the minister knows when he talks to local smaller communities. So I think that's good news. governments, that you've got three levels of government, two of them recognized constitutionally — the federal S. Fraser: That's $17½ million this year forT owns for and the provincial governments. As partners on the Tomorrow to offset some of the costs for infrastructure. one-third, one-third model, they have the ability — all That $17½ million — that's the entire province. That's of the powers of taxation and the legislative powers — to the communities below that critical mass. That has to raise money and to run deficits if necessary. Those are be spread out amongst the entire province. It's actually not options largely available to local governments. quite a small amount, compared to the number of mu- Has the minister had any discussions with local nicipal governments out there that would, potentially, governments about the challenges of coming up with qualify. 5654 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

That being said, I guess I'll finish off this sort of direc- governments have very, very limited access to revenue tion of questioning with: has the minister engaged in any streams. Along with maybe an increase in traffic fine discussions with his federal counterparts about…? He's revenue, there have been fuel tax increases that are paid mentioned the likelihood of seeing the infrastructure by local governments. There are MSP premiums for mu- funding happening immediately again. But considering nicipal staff.O f course, these are significant, and they've that we're still in a very fragile economic time, certainly, been increasing in a significant way. in the province and in the country, and the continuation Property taxes have been capped on major ports, in of these grants will still be of…. some industries, although we'll talk a little bit about that, [1500] I would hope, regarding the work the task force is doing The need for stimulus of the economy may still be on that. ICBC and B.C. Hydro rates are paid by muni- there in the next fiscal year. I don't necessarily believe cipal governments. Courthouse closures result in loss of that the private sector is going to fill up the gap that revenue, actually, for local governments as well as higher quickly. policing costs and, of course, some of the costs associ- I'm just wondering if the minister has been lobby- ated with some of the changes made on policing. The ing or would consider lobbying the federal government per-officer costs have gone up too. to ensure or at least to put our word in that this would I want to put into context that it's not all good out be a valuable program to continue for at least two years there. There have certainly been, under this government, in a row and that the funding could be made available a lot of extra costs levied on local governments. I've cer- through Towns for Tomorrow and such, to ensure that tainly heard that, and I know that the minister has too. funding might be available for valuable infrastructure I believe there was a resolution, a strongly worded reso- projects throughout the province as a form of not just lution, about off-loading and downloading at the recent providing valuable infrastructure but also to continue UBCM conference in September. the economic stimulus that those programs provide. That's an ongoing issue. I know the minister is aware of it, but I just wanted to get it in context that yes, there Hon. B. Bennett: I do want to just clarify for the may be some moves made to increase revenue availabil- member's benefit that the Towns for Tomorrow pro- ity to local governments, but it certainly doesn't offset gram was not just a $17½ million program. That's what the great costs that have been downloaded and off- is left in the program now. It was actually $57½ mil- loaded onto local governments. lion over three years. There's $17½ million left. By the I'd be happy to hear a comment in return on that. time it's over, it will be almost $60 million that's gone Then I'm going to just move over, because we're going out to small communities, and the province will have to go to community development trust questions from paid either 80 percent of the cost of the project or 75 my colleague, if that's all right, as I warned the minister percent. earlier. There's also the LocalMotion program, which put [1505] money out into smaller communities, which was very successful. There are also the small community grants, Hon. B. Bennett: I actually don't doubt the member's which the member would be interested in knowing that sincerity when he suggests that perhaps we're not giving we doubled, actually. We doubled the size of the small as much money to local government as we should, but I community grants from the days that his party was in am obligated to give him the facts. government. I can tell the member, in general terms, that over the We are also paying out 100 percent of traffic fine rev- past nine years local government has ended up with over enues to communities that collect them. I believe that $3 billion in new incremental revenues that they didn't when the member's party was in government, it was 10 have when we were first elected. That's a lot of new rev- percent. We now pay out 100 percent. enue, and that's in general terms. There are a number of examples like that, where there Again, we doubled the small community grants. is actually more money going to local government to- That's about $227 million annually. We are giving com- day than ever before. Not to minimize their challenges, munities 100 percent of the traffic fine revenue. That's because it's very challenging being in local government, accounted for about $250 million since 2004. just like it is being in provincial government. I can list We have invested in places like Cranbrook, where off for the member many, many examples of money go- I come from, $33 million in a hospital; in Kamloops, ing to all sizes of communities in the province over the $28 million in a hospital; in Nanaimo, $39 million in a past several years that they've made good use of. hospital. We've invested in 33 different airports across the province, many of which are not in big cities. In S. Fraser: I appreciate the increase in traffic fine -rev fact, most of them are not in big cities. We've invested enue for the municipalities. Besides their ability to levy in colleges and universities and seniors homes. In the property taxes and control the mill rates and such, local Kootenay region, where I come from, there is at least Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5655

one new seniors facility in just about every community I wonder if the minister could indicate whether that that exists in the Kootenays. thinking has occurred and whether or not the province Again, it's not to suggest that local governments have is looking at contributing further to this fund, because it easy or that they have lots of money to play with. They the fund does wrap up, or the trust wraps up, on March don't, and neither does the province. We're constantly 31 of 2011. working with local government to try and figure out how they can deal with the challenges that they have to Hon. B. Bennett: Let me start, first of all, by agreeing deal with. with the member that this has been a terrific program. They do an absolutely magnificent job of budget- For the member's benefit, this program has maintained ing, in my opinion, for the most part, so we work with 504 recreation sites across the province. There have been them carefully and respectfully. If there are ways to pro- 4,716 kilometres of trails created or upgraded. Ten parks vide them with other revenue-generating means, we're have been made safer or more accessible. always open to that idea. I think, generally, that over There have been 2,572 hectares of forest treated for the past nine years local governments would say — in fuel management — which the member, coming from a quiet moment, when they wanted to be fair — that Quesnel, knows is an important thing out where we they've been well-treated by this government. live — making communities safer, and silviculture treat- ments on 15,200 hectares. There have apparently been B. Simpson: I would like spend a few minutes can- 8,363 mountain pine beetle–affected trees that have vassing the community development trust. Just for the been felled and burnt with this program. record, the community development trust was estab- This program has actually helped close to 9,000- re lished two years ago now — it's got one more year left source workers in British Columbia since its creation. I — predominantly as the result of the federal govern- think there's probably an ideological difference between ment's $1 billion package for stimulus. British Columbia the way the members on the other side look at the fact got a portion of that. The government put together this that we got this federal money…. community development trust. It was mostly designed I think, from our perspective, we're proud of the fact for forest workers, so I have some questions around that we have the kind of relationship with the federal that. government that allows us to get that kind of money I wonder if the minister could just clarify, for the pub- from the federal government. There was a time in this lic record, the total funding contributions to the trust, province when the provincial government here in British and by source. Columbia fought constantly with and was a thorn in the [1510] side of the federal government. We decided early on that you do better on behalf of Hon. B. Bennett: For the member's benefit, I'll break your taxpayers, on behalf of the people you're account- it down into the three components of the commun- able to, if you try to get along with your partners, and the ity development trust. The transition program had or federal government is a partner of British Columbia's. is having $85.5 million go through it, the tuition com- British Columbia has done extremely well by the federal ponent had $17.25 million go through it, and the job government in terms of the money that they've provided opportunity program had $88.25 million go through it. to us for infrastructure funding and so forth. That includes the original $129 million that went into With regard to whether we're going to keep this it, which was federal money. It also includes the subse- program rolling along, it was never intended to be a pro- quent $60 million that went into it, $30 million of which gram that would last over the long term. It was intended was provincial and $30 million of which was federal. to help resource workers in our communities during a time when the forest industry was suffering, when the B. Simpson: I have the total figures. I think the min- U.S. economy took a nosedive and the housing industry ister actually was giving the numbers assigned to each of crashed. It's done that. We've helped, as I say, upwards of those envelopes, not necessarily the numbers that have 9,000 resource workers in the province. actually come out of those envelopes. I have the totals As I said earlier, it's unfortunate that the member sitting in front of me, the totals that have already flowed missed what I said a bit earlier about how the private from the three envelopes. sector is now starting to reinvest in British Columbia One of the things that we've indicated, of course, is the and to create jobs. matching contribution that occurred with the second [1515] contribution to this fund — the $60 million, where the There are all kinds of signs that the forest industry is province put in $30 million. We had indicated that we coming back and that other businesses are feeling more felt, as other provinces did, that the provincial govern- confident. They're starting to invest, as I say, and create ment should have matched the $129 million, the original more jobs. That the timing of the infrastructure stimu- allocation, to stretch this as far as possible. lus, the timing of this particular program and the fact 5656 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

that the infrastructure program with the federal govern- rather have the 55- to 60-year-olds still available to work ment and our own infrastructure programs like Towns when the industry came back, as opposed to the workers for Tomorrow, plus this community development trust, who were over 60, and that's why we made the decision. are going to take us into that point where the private sector will take over I think is either good luck or good B. Simpson: Again, an answer to a question I didn't management. But either way, the timing is actually ask or have intentions of asking. So the transitional pretty good. assistance program is closed. Again, we all have individ- uals who have come in ever since this program closed B. Simpson: It's always interesting to get answers in asking for more transitional assistance. estimates to questions that were never asked, but first The minister's rose-coloured glasses with respect and foremost, I'm not quite sure where the minister is to the industry are just that. The minister knows that, going with ideological divides when I just simply asked down in his neck of the woods, where the industry is if the provincial government had contemplated adding still struggling. It's still going through fundamental re- more money to his funds. structuring. There are still a lot of older workers who Yes or no? Is the provincial government contemplating would like the opportunity to transition out, which is adding more money to this fund and looking at carrying what this program was designed to do. the community development trust forward? So is the community development trust still getting significant numbers of requests for transitional assist- Hon. B. Bennett: I'll try to do a better job of ex- ance and for help? Do they have applications in excess plaining what I meant when I said that there may be of what the program was able to meet? an ideological difference between the ways we look at [1520] the money we get from the federal government. What I meant, for the member's benefit, is that we think it's Hon. B. Bennett: Well, I'm going to try my hardest actually a very positive thing if we can get the federal to only answer the questions that I'm asked. I definitely government to pay a greater proportion of the costs of don't want to provide more information than the mem- programs that are going to benefit British Columbians. ber wants. We don't see that as a problem. We actually see that as a The transition program, as I said already, ended after real win for British Columbians. the second year. It was supposed to end after the first Why wouldn't you rather have the federal govern- year. It ended after the second year. That program is ment pay more rather than have them pay less? So that's done. I wouldn't make a big thing of it, but we haven't what I meant by that, and obviously, we will agree to dis- actually had any contact from people who are interested agree on that. in the transition program since after the second year. I did actually answer his question about the future Having said that, I know there are people out there who of the program. I said that I think that the completion of the program is timed very well with the re-emerging would like to avail themselves of the program. strong economy in the province, and this program will I can tell the member that the focus of interest by come to an end. resource workers seems to be more on the tuition as- sistance than on transition at this point. There's a much B. Simpson: Is the transitional assistance program greater interest in that. still available for applications? I do feel that I need to respond to the member's com- ment about my area. Actually, my area's forest industry, Hon. B. Bennett: The transition program was always generally speaking, is doing way better than it was doing intended to be paid out, actually, in the first year. We before. Tembec is operating. The pulp mill is operating. paid out a lot of it in the first year. There were some The sawmills are operating. Galloway is just about to go funds left in the program, which we used to pay out in back to work. There was an announcement, I believe, the second year. last week or the week before that the mill in Slocan City I might predict, perhaps, what the member might ask in the West Kootenay is going to get up and running. about the change of the age threshold. In the second year I know that Wynndel Box and Lumber is running full we changed the age threshold above which you would steam — at least two shifts, maybe three. qualify to apply from 55, which we used in the first year, It's not perfect, and the prices are still low. You know, to 60. Maybe anticipating what the member might be the Canadian dollar went down today a little bit, which interested in, we did that because there was a discrete, is good for them, and the price of lumber went down, smaller amount of money left, and we wanted to make which sort of cancels out the decrease in the value of the sure that the money went to older workers. dollar. Nonetheless, there are more people working in The industry told us quite clearly that that's what their the forest industry today than there were a year ago, and preference would be. If they have a choice, they would that seems to me to be a good trend line. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5657

B. Simpson: The tuition assistance program — how again, about this kind of program. You know, I'm hope- long will it continue to accept intakes? ful. I'm optimistic that as the prospects for the federal government improve with the improving economy, we'll Hon. B. Bennett: You must be registered in the pro- once again be able to partner with them on a variety of gram by December 31, 2010, and you must be in an programs. actual course at a college or some sort of training insti- tute by, I think, March 31, 2011, to qualify. B. Simpson: Is there a requirement on the part of the federal government for match funding in this case? Will B. Simpson: I want to just canvass a job opportunities the province be required in any future funding from component, but I just wanted to clarify that, as I under- the federal government to match, as they had to do stand it, the final application process for that has now in the second allocation here but didn't do in the first closed. Is there an intent to have more applications, or allocation? was that in fact the final application window? Hon. B. Bennett: The practice of the federal govern- Hon. B. Bennett: If I don't get all the information out ment is to advise provinces at some point that they have for the member, he can remind me of what I missed, but money that they would like to spend in the provinces. there's close to $40 million of job opportunities program Of course, provinces are always knocking at their money that will be out there between right now and next door asking for help, but with regard to whether or not spring. it's a matching program or a program where they simply In terms of new money, that window closed in late transfer money to the province and allow the province January. There's roughly $10 million available — high to use the money, it depends on the specific program interest, as the member would expect. There will be a and the terms of reference that are negotiated by the joint announcement by the federal government and the province and the federal government. provincial government coming sometime fairly soon with regard to some of those new projects. [S. Cadieux in the chair.] [1525] Even within the short time that I've been in the prov- B. Simpson: Is it fair to say that the interest far ex- incial cabinet I've seen a number of different provincial ceeds the ability of the fund to support with dollars? and federal funding programs. You just give it your best shot as a province to negotiate the most favourable Hon. B. Bennett: That's a trick question. Well, of terms you can with the federal government. Sometimes course it does. It always does. it's a one-third, one-third, one-third. Other times they There's always more interest in any program that gov- will pay the full shot, and other times they want it 50- ernment has. It doesn't matter whether you're talking 50. There's no way to predict what the terms of reference about job opportunities or whether you're talking about will be in the next program, no matter what program building new sewers and water systems and sidewalks we're talking about. and roads or anything. There's always more interest on the part of the general public, local government, the B. Simpson: I appreciate that and understand the na- private sector, even those of us in the provincial gov- ture of that dialogue. ernment. We never get as much money from the federal One of the reasons why I was asking the minister to government as we would like to. So yes, there's never stick to the questions is that I have very limited time, as enough money to give everybody the money they want. the minister well knows, and hence had some questions that needed to be done. I've only got two more, and I'll B. Simpson: Are there any discussions with the federal do them together. government to see if it's possible to fund this last round It is the ongoing dialogue with the federal govern- of entries? Again, it was designed for communities that ment around incremental silviculture for the province are in transition, designed to put people to work during of British Columbia. Are there any discussions with their own personal transition. So is the minister hav- the federal government? And we were asked to ask this, ing any discussions with the federal government about Minister, by the Minister of Forests, so I don't want to looking for opportunities to fulfil the requests that are be punted back to the Minister of Forests, because he there as the program winds down? punted it forward to this ministry. [1530] Hon. B. Bennett: I have actually had discussions In the past we used to have forest and range develop- with members of the federal cabinet, not only about ment agreements with the federal government in which this but about infrastructure funding, about the pine we were able to fund significant incremental silvicul- beetle money that they promised a few years back and, ture to meet Crown obligations. I'm not talking about 5658 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

the legal obligations of licensees post-harvest. I'm talk- about the $800 million that's missing from the prom- ing about Crown obligations on land that have been ised billion from the federal government. disturbed. Are we having discussions with the federal [1535] government about the possibility of a large incremental I would like the minister to clarify for the public silviculture program? record: does he have indications from the federal govern- The second part of the question is very specific toF irst ment that that $800 million is still real, still potentially Nations. First Nations, during the Olympics, issued a on the table? If so, what is it that this provincial govern- press release with a specific ask, and it had to do with ment has to do to get that? Secondly, is there a guarantee their concern about threats to their communities be- that First Nations will get what they believe is their fair cause of interface fire. They believed that they were cut of that, which was 20 percent of that fund? promised by the federal government $20 million each So two parts, very specific. Is that $800 million still year for ten years. in play, and if so, what do we have to do to secure it? Are there any discussions by this minister with the Secondly, will First Nations get the 20 percent they be- federal government to address First Nations' concerns lieve they were promised? around wildfire and around community interface work that needs to be done to protect those communities Hon. B. Bennett: For the member's benefit, he may against wildfires? So two different programs that the dismiss the value of the job opportunities program. I cer- minister may be discussing. tainly don't. I don't, frankly, think that the people who had projects and who worked on those projects would Hon. B. Bennett: This is a multifaceted answer, - ac dismiss it as insignificant. I think it was very significant tually, to the question. I would assume that the member in their lives, from everything that we hear from them. asked the Minister of Forests about the UBCM program So 12 percent of that program went to First Nations. and the dollars they have around fuel management pro- First Nations did get quite a few projects, actually, jects. I don't have the numbers on what's left in that throughout the province for silviculture and fuel man- program, but I think it's significant. agement. I don't know where the member gets the 20 Through the job opportunities program we actually percent number from, so I can't really respond to that. focused, in the past year, on silviculture, fuel manage- I can tell the member that we do believe that the fed- ment, and ecosystem and range restoration. We spent a eral government was sincere when they said that they lot of money in those areas. I won't bother going into the would pay B.C. $1 billion related to pine beetle. They percentages or the numbers, because the member didn't did so with the $200 million. I believe that if we keep ask me specifically for that. There has been and will con- working with them and if we're reasonable…. We have tinue to be in this next round…. I would guess that a lot been reasonable partners with them, and if we continue of the $10 million will be spent in the job opportunities to be reasonable partners with them and we keep ad- program on fuel management and silviculture, probably vocating strongly on behalf of British Columbians, they some ecosystem restoration as well. will come through. Then there is, thirdly, the matter of the $800 million I think this is something, actually, that both sides of that the federal government will be transferring at some the House share — a desire to encourage the federal gov- point to the provincial government, probably in incre- ernment as strongly as we can to meet that commitment ments. That's the $800 million that is left over after the as quickly as they possibly can, given their circumstances first $200 million from the billion they promised that that are not that different than our circumstances and relates to pine beetle. There's that money. There is the other provinces, where they're in a deficit position. money at UBCM. There's the money through the job opportunities program. There are also the line items in B. Simpson: Just for the public record, no one on this the Minister of Forest's budget for silviculture. side has ever dismissed the work done under job oppor- tunities, but I would suggest the minister might want to B. Simpson: The critic is allowing me just to close go back and see what his people did in opposition with this off, especially given the minister's last comments. respect to the same kind of work under Forest Renewal The nature of the investment, as we canvassed it in the B.C. and the dismissal and the way they tried to make Ministry of Forests, is that it's a quarter-of-a-trillion- that work a laughingstock. There's a double standard dollar asset. Under the Ministry of Forests program for there, to the minister. Forests for Tomorrow, all that's being invested is about Secondly, I will get the minister the documentation $40 million, at a marginal investment. from the First Nations Forestry Council so that the Historically that investment was in the $200-million- minister is clear in his discussions with the federal gov- to $250-million-a-year range. If you roll up all that the ernment about the tacit promise to First Nations about minister has indicated, it doesn't come anywhere close 20 percent of that money. I'll make sure the minister gets to that. What's intriguing is the minister's comment that documentation. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5659

S. Fraser: Madam Chair, welcome to the session here S. Fraser: To the minister, you get to appoint a pos- at the wonderful Ministry of Community and Rural ition that's normally, in local governance, an elected Development. I'd like to move on to some governance position. Is that correct? questions, being mindful that we have so little time here. One came to my attention quite recently. I haven't Hon. B. Bennett: The member, I'm sure, must be really prepared much on this, but it appears that Sun aware that through this legislation, we were attempting Peaks will be electing their first mayor and council.N ow, to create something new — a way to create a resort mu- this is a new development. Is this the result…? I'm going nicipality. It's similar to what happened in this province, to go back. I believe it was Bill 11. Is this a governance certainly, with Whistler but also similar to what hap- model that has developed through the introduction of pened in some of the other communities that were Bill 11 — I don't know — a couple of years ago now, or created essentially out of thin air. I have a couple where several years ago? I come from. Sparwood and Elkford were created basic- ally out of nothing. Hon. B. Bennett: The short answer: yes. This was an attempt, legislatively, to set the rules and the terms of reference for how you would do that if there was S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that.N ow, I have an opportunity and a need for a resort community to be a few questions about the model of governance here. created. Is it the same as a regular election where everyone Maybe this was identified in detail with the introduc- is elected to council? No, it's not, because you have that ap- tion of the bill at the time. I don't recall it, though. pointed councillor. But that is a transitional approach in My understanding is that the model here…. There these communities. As it was with Whistler, it will be with will be a mayor elected in June, and there are three coun- Sun Peaks as time goes on. There will be less and less of a cil seats available besides that. Is that the model? It's like need to have the appointed councillor there, and ultim- a small municipal governance model. Some towns have ately, all members of the council would be elected. three councillors and a mayor; some have seven council- lors, including the mayor. Have I got that correct? How's S. Fraser: How many residents are in this new com- this going to be working? munity? What's the population base, and what's the [1540] numbers on the electorate? Ballpark is fair enough.

Hon. B. Bennett: Hon. Chair, I think the member Hon. B. Bennett: The approximate number is 350 resi- was correct. Just to go over it, though, to make sure that dents. If most of the condos and suites were full on a busy it's correct in the record, the mayor is elected, three of weekend, there would be roughly 2,000 people there. the councillors are elected, and one of the councillors is appointed. That approach mirrors,I am advised, exactly S. Fraser: All right. Thanks to the minister for that. what took place in the '70s in Whistler. Now, through Bill 11, if I recall, this is sort of mandated from the minister or ministry, the creation of this new S. Fraser: Is there an appointed councillor in town. It doesn't require the assent of, or meaningful Whistler? consultation with, local government, the regional dis- trict. So this is created literally out of the air, and it can Hon. B. Bennett: Yes, hon. Chair. be done around the wishes and advice of local govern- ment. Is that correct? S. Fraser: Who makes that appointment? Hon. B. Bennett: I'll see if I can respond to all those Hon. B. Bennett: I'm just not sure which word the points. If I don't get them all, the member will remind member used to ask the question about the appointment me what they were. of the councillor in Whistler. But there was a council- [1545] lor appointed in the '70s to the Whistler council. That First of all, there was a vote by the people who live appointment lasted for about ten years. Then, as more at Sun Peaks, so this wasn't done to them. It was done people moved into the community, they had no need with them and because of their request for government for that, and everyone was elected. Just so we're clear on to do this. There was a vote. People had an opportunity that point. to vote at Sun Peaks on whether to do this or not. The What was the other question? vote passed with, I think, 73 percent voting yes. It was also with the approval, I would say — I might even say S. Fraser: Who appoints…? enthusiastic approval — of the regional district. These things don't happen totally independent of local Hon. B. Bennett: Oh yeah. The minister appoints the government neighbours, and they don't happen totally councillor. independent of First Nations neighbours. 5660 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

Despite the fact that there is still concern on the part He didn't answer the question about what criteria. He of some First Nations in the area, there was a lot of con- did confirm that regardless of the suggestions that come sultation around this particular file. The regional district from the community or the developers, it's his deci- talked about it for a long, long time. So did the folks at sion to make alone. What would be the basis for that Sun Peaks talk about it for a long, long time before it ever decision? happened; otherwise, the province wouldn't have done it. Hon. B. Bennett: It is a serious responsibility. The S. Fraser: The minister referred several times to the member, you know, is making a good point. I can tell necessity for an appointed member. There are 350 resi- you that I don't take it lightly, nor do I take it lightly dents — 2,000 sometimes. What would be the rationale when I receive bylaws for signature from every regional for having a non-elected member? district in the province. There are a number of oppor- tunities for the minister to exercise the authority of the Hon. B. Bennett: There was a committee of folks, office. I've never thought of it as power, frankly. I just including the local electoral area director from the haven't thought of it that way. It's an obligation, a re- regional district and folks from Sun Peaks. They called sponsibility and, really, a great opportunity to be in my the committee the restructure committee. The restruc- position to deal with these kinds of things, and I take ture committee worked for a long time on this matter, them very seriously. this issue of creating a resort municipality. With regard to the member's question on how you It was their recommendation to government that one make the decision as to who should be the appropriate of the councillors be appointed, in acknowledgment that appointment to that council, I will weigh very heavily this is a very small community but a community that is the recommendation from the incorporation commit- likely to grow. tee and the resort company, particularly if it's a joint The province wants to still have its finger in the pie, so submission to the ministry — you know, they come to speak, by having an appointment on that council, to up with one name. I'm going to have to give that great make sure that provincial interests are considered and to weight, and it's likely that that would be the person. But make sure that this venture is successful, and that's why because I have this responsibility to make the decision, this transitional appointment is made. I'll have to take a look at it and decide if that person is There certainly are no nefarious or conspiratorial the right person. things going on here. It's just an issue of wanting them In terms of how I would make that decision, we have to be successful. One of the ways they can be success- a new municipality, or we're about to have a new muni- ful, and they agree with this, is to have one appointment cipality. We're going to have a new mayor and council there for a number of years. starting out with this new municipality. They have 350 people, roughly, who live there, but they are visited regu- S. Fraser: To the minister, then: what criteria will he larly by a couple of thousand other people. use to choose an appointment, and has he made that de- This is a venture that's going to take some energy and cision? If so, who is it? commitment. I want to have somebody on there and I [1550] know the provincial government wants to have some- body on there who is going to be constructive; who Hon. B. Bennett: We have consulted and continue would have some experience, perhaps some financial to consult with what I referred to before as a restruc- experience or business experience; who understands the ture committee, which is sometimes also known as the resort business I think would be something that would incorporation committee. We're continuing to talk to be nice for that person to bring to the table; and, ob- them. We're also talking to the resort company as well. viously, somebody of considerable personal integrity Between the incorporation committee and the resort and, again, experience and education. company, they'll no doubt have a suggestion for us as to who should be appointed, but ultimately, as I've said al- S. Fraser: I don't disagree with that vague criteria ready, the final decision on that is made by the minister. the minister is suggesting that he would use. Surely that would be something best left up to those people that can S. Fraser: I know the minister suggested there's noth- vote. An appointment is, I think…. ing nefarious, but it's quite a sweeping bit of power the [1555] minister has. I mean, this is a municipality, essentially a I mean, the minister has the opportunity here to allow town, and chartered municipalities can be created. They a full democratic process, and a quarter of the council do happen. But there's a position that would normally will be picked by him. I'm not meaning to suggest any- be elected through a democratic process. thing, but the minister could make this just a pure, raw The minister has unilateral power over one-quarter of political appointment, and there would be nothing to the council members, essentially. He hasn't laid out…. stop that. That may or may not be in the best interests of Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5661

the community. That would be best left to the commun- Hon. B. Bennett: Well, the last part of the member's ity to decide. That's, I think, the basis for democracy. question first. You have to live in the municipality or I'll just throw this out — a question: will this new local own property before you get a vote. So if they live within government have a seat on the regional district board? the Sun Peaks municipality boundaries or own property there, they would get to vote. Hon. B. Bennett: I have to say to the member that In that section that I referred the member to a minute he's in a minority in the fact that he thinks it's a bad idea ago, section 8, "First Nations advisory body," it makes it for the province to appoint somebody to this inaugural quite clear that the council must invite the various First council at Sun Peaks. There is, apparently, one person Nations — and they spell out the specific names; they with a blog at Sun Peaks who doesn't like it. That's fine. are all bands in this case — who have to be invited to That is that person's democratic right, and I encourage provide a nominated person to the First Nations advis- that person to blog away. ory body. So these folks from the First Nations will be But you know, the regional district has no objection to this. chosen by their First Nations communities and their The other 349 people who live at Sun Peaks, I am advised, First Nations governments. have no objection to this. It was done in Whistler. The member is within his rights to try to make a big political issue out of S. Fraser: Time. The clock is going too fast. Can the this, but frankly, he's in a pretty small minority when it comes hon. Chair slow that down a bit? to this. Most people think this is a pretty good way to do this. Okay, I could continue on this, but I actually hadn't With regard to the regional district, I'm sure the member planned on spending this much time there, although is curious, and it's a good question to ask. Would the I'm fascinated by this model. I would note that this is appointed councillor, he or she, be qualified to sit on the not new. We have, under a new Liberal bill, a new resort regional district? The answer is no. It would be one of community created where one-quarter of the council the elected people, either the mayor or one of the three members who are normally elected are appointed by the elected councillors. minister, which again, I believe is quite a sweeping power that's not based on democracy. It's an appointment. S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. There is If you compound that with what we're seeing pro- some controversy with the resort. There were First posed at UBC, we have a similar situation where there's Nations issues. There were consultation issues. Will the potentially a large community, not 350 residents. We're minister consider a First Nations appointee? talking thousands of people that will essentially have, you know, an appointed board, and the minister who ap- Hon. B. Bennett: Again, a good question and, I think, points the board will essentially be the oversight on it. an important question. I mentioned earlier that there So again, this is not exactly a democratic model. So are some First Nations people who are not yet comfort- we're seeing now two instances where the minister is be- able with the idea of a resort municipality. The province's ing given powers that would normally in a democracy position is that there was adequate consultation done, be handled through a democratic process. Does the and we continue to talk with First Nations. I know that minister not find that ironic — that we've got two in- so does the resort municipality itself. stances here of, really, the minister giving himself quite However, we've done more than that, actually. In the extraordinary powers around a democratic process that letters patent we've actually included a whole section on would normally occur, really, anywhere else in the prov- a First Nations advisory body that this resort municipality ince, anywhere else in the country? will have to comply with for all time, as long as these letters patent are in place. Hon. B. Bennett: I'm going to resist the temptation to I won't use up a bunch of time reading what's in the let- respond to that comparison. We actually have a miscel- ters patent, but I would refer the member to page 4 of 13 laneous statutes bill before the House right now dealing of the letters patent. It's section 8, and it's called the "First with the topic of UBC and Metro Vancouver and, there- Nations advisory body." The community, the municipality, fore, my understanding is that we're not to discuss that the local government is obligated legally to create this ad- here, so I won't do that. visory body and to do certain things to make sure that First I will respond this way, though, to the member. When Nations have an opportunity to be part of this venture. you look at what they have today at Sun Peaks, they have one electoral director on a regional district who repre- S. Fraser: On the letters patent, will the new munici- sents those 350 people and, as well, those other couple pal government, including the one appointee from the of thousand visitors that come and go. minister, be deciding on who sits on that advisory com- What we're going to, as a result of, as the member has mittee? Also, are First Nations in the area allowed to cast stated himself, this B.C. Liberal legislation…. We're ac- a vote in the upcoming June election? tually going to a situation where you're going to have [1600] three elected councillors and an elected mayor — four 5662 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

elected people in the beginning; it will eventually be He is one smart cookie, and he seems to know every- five. We're going from one elected representative to four thing. It's a great, great pleasure to work with him, and elected representatives and an appointed representative. I know members on the other side enjoyed serving with In terms of democracy, I think that the numbers are in him and working with him as well. favour of the resort municipality. Today we had a meeting of the Local Government Elections Task Force. It lasted a few hours, and it will be S. Fraser: I guess we can agree to disagree. You know, probably the last face-to-face meeting we'll have. We'll partial democracy is, I guess, better than no democracy, do a lot electronically between now and May 30, a lot if I'm understanding the minister correctly. But hav- over the telephone. ing full democracy would probably be the better way to In answer to the member's question, "Have we de- go, in my opinion, and the minister says that I'm in the cided on our recommendations?" — I don't know if he minority. used those words, but I think that's what he meant — [1605] yes, we have. I would suggest that maybe the 350 people in the new community agree with the minister, but I would suggest S. Fraser: Hi, Gary and Nicola. Both your reputations that if the question was put to what model of governance precede you. Thank you for being here. would be considered the fairest and most democratic in Well, I guess I won't ask you to report out on the the province, I think the majority of British Columbians recommendations, but I understand that there's timing would side with me in my opinion that a complete for that. The end of the month, I believe, was the dead- elected model would be a preference. So we won't fol- line that you would have to present to cabinet or to the low that. Premier. I'm not sure. Can the minister maybe give us a I hope the minister's not literally saying that right now hint as to when those recommendations may be made before the House we have Bill 20. If we are at section 4, I public? hope we're not missing it, because that would be, I pre- sume, a section that he and I will be able to probe and go Hon. B. Bennett: I think May 30, which is the date back and forth on the particulars of the UBC decision. that we are obligated to have this report in to govern- Am I missing anything? Is he saying this is happening ment. It goes to government and UBCM, not to cabinet right now? or to the Premier. That was the original request of us.A s I say, our obligation is to have the report done and in Hon. B. Bennett: Well, you've asked me a question to government and UBCM by May 30. I think May 30 that I don't have the information to allow me to answer. might be a weekend day, so we'll have it done, completed I don't know if Bill 20 is up in the House right now. I and in to UBCM and the government by the last Friday don't think it is. I'm pretty sure it's not. I wouldn't want in May, which I think is May 28. to say on the record that absolutely it's not, but I don't [1610] think it is. S. Fraser: Thanks for the clarification from the minis- S. Fraser: All right, I'll take that. The minister said ter on that. Just for the record, there was a flurry of court that right now there's a bill before the House. I was tak- challenges, criminal charges proposed and many things ing the minister literally, but you're figurative. I know that led to this task force being created, and many con- Bill 20 is there. I wasn't sure on the rules of the House as cerns. There was an attempt to do some stuff in 2008, I far as us probing. I know there are rules around question think, by the government around electoral reform that period when they're on bills that are before the House, was, arguably, lacking. I'm not casting blame here, but but I wasn't sure if the rules applied during the estimates from what happened in the 2008 election we saw that process. there were still significant problems, certainly. I'm just going to move right on to the task force. If I know that just on Central Saanich there were 19 I'm not mistaken, this is the last day of the task force on charges recommended by the RCMP. I know there were electoral reform. Is today the last day scheduled? That's many communities where there were considered to be on the website. I think today is. Is that report finalized electoral discrepancies, problems, campaign financing at this point? issues and non-disclosure issues. There was a whole raft of things. Then, of course, there was a whole list of other [D. Hayer in the chair.] things that the task force was mandated with. Now, Daphne Bramham, I believe, wrote this in early Hon. B. Bennett: Gary Paget is just leaving his chair, May. Her quote was: "The B.C. election task force was and Nicola Marotz is just coming in. Gary Paget, actually, flawed from the beginning with a timeline that was too is a long-serving public servant in the government of short, a mandate that was too broad and a membership British Columbia and has served with great distinction. that was too narrow." Now, I mean, that's her opinion. As Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5663

the minister knows, I had a problem with the makeup of that Daphne Bramham had used in one of her articles: "the the task force. We've discussed this in a previous meet- Wild West." I wish I hadn't said that, because it's not true. ing, and I certainly voiced that publicly, as we have in the opposition. A Voice: Don't quote reporters. What was the rationale, considering that the issues around local governance and the changes that are be- Hon. B. Bennett: Yeah, exactly. Don't quote reporters. ing contemplated are quite sweeping, very broad? There You know, what I learned, and I think what all of us was a very short timeline, and yet the minister chose learned through this process…. And we had dozens and a model that specifically, purposely excluded a large dozens of hours of meetings and discussions and inter- number of the elected representatives in this place, in viewing people, like the Leader of the Opposition and the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. Now, the the critic. What we learned was that local government model, I'm saying, of the legislative committee system elections are administered very, very well by local gov- — the special committees, the standing committees — ernment. Their chief administrative officers are usually allows for all members of the House, who are elected their chief electoral officers. They do an excellent job. to represent their constituents, to be a part of these You know, the member refers to some problems in the amendments. 2008 election. Absolutely. We know all about those prob- Can the minister explain why he excluded all of us? lems in great detail. We've analyzed them. We've tried to And I would include the independent member for Delta come up with recommendations that will fill those gaps South in that. She's not able to be with us here today, in the process. But you know, we're talking about a half- but we have discussed this. These should not be partisan, dozen communities. We're not talking about something political positions on the task force. It should have been that's endemic throughout the whole municipal world or done through our committee system. the whole world of local government. I think that's ac- tually demeaning and disrespectful to local government. Hon. B. Bennett: Hon. Chair, I'm going to take a mo- There aren't those kinds of widespread, dysfunctional ment to answer the member, because the member has problems. criticized this process consistently over the past several Having said that, there were some issues that came months. I recognize that the member has a job to do as up in 2008 that needed to be addressed. You know, the the critic and that the member is in opposition. He has member might want to bear in mind that the changes a job to do, and I know that opposition members are that were made in 2008 were actually quite positive. there to criticize and to try and find ways that they can What we're doing is building on top of those changes make the government look bad. That's the nature of op- that were made. In any case, what we've done is identi- position. I understand that. fied the gaps that we think exist in the local government I should say for the record and for the member's elections process, and we've made recommendations to benefit, as well, that this is the most constructive, posi- fill those gaps. tive, enjoyable, satisfying process that I've been involved Now, the member suggests that the process wasn't in, in my nine years as an MLA. It's been a wonderful somehow democratic or fulsome. Well, what would've process. Now, that's not just me; I'm not the only person happened if we had struck a legislative committee, as that believes that. the member has suggested? Well, the first thing that We shared that today — all the members of the task would've happened is that UBCM members wouldn't force. That includes four members of local government. have been able to sit on it — only members of the That includes Chief Harry Nyce of the Nisga'a. That in- Legislature, MLAs. cludes Robert Hobson, the former president of UBCM. I don't think that we're the only people that know It includes Mary Sjostrom, the mayor of Quesnel, and about local government and local government elections. it includes Barb Steele, who is a councillor with Surrey. I know that the member has been a mayor. I have never We all agreed that this was a very, very good process. I sat on a local government council or a regional district believe that the result, the report with the recommenda- board. Government wanted to have UBCM member- tions, will speak for itself. ship on this task force, and the only way to do that was The second pointI want to make is that it is a mistake, to create the kind of task force that we created. So I think and it is borderline disrespectful, I think, to…. And that the member hasn't thought this suggestion all the maybe the member wasn't suggesting this, so I don't way through. want to suggest that he was. But it has been suggested in With regard to how democratic it was and how fulsome the media that the local government elections process is our consultation process was…. I mean, we had over somehow or other dysfunctional, just out of control. 10,000 people say things to us as a task force. We met with [1615] the Leader of the Opposition and the critic. Actually, they I probably contributed to that in the early days, I think made…. You made a very good presentation. I enjoyed before we even had our first meeting, by using a phrase what the Leader of the Opposition had to say. 5664 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

I believe that the recommendations we're making are Every MLA here is elected. Every MLA has a duty to going to be largely consistent with what the NDP has represent their constituents, and you did not open that asked us for — largely consistent, actually, with what the opportunity up to the independent member for Delta mayor of Burnaby has asked us for, of all things. I don't South nor the opposition members. As being part of the know whether folks will say that after the report comes process here that we're supposed to be involved in, it out, but in any case I think that we're on the right track. would be a natural to involve all members of the House We met with the B.C. school trustees face to face. Who to ensure even the appearance of non-partisanship and else did we meet with? We met with some academics who for it to not be political. So I disagree, and others dis- spent a couple of hours with us telling us what they thought agree also. we should do — some academics with a lot of experience. I just believe that can taint the process — no matter We had a meeting on March 12 in Richmond. We how much fun the minister had by not having members invited every single local government person in the of the opposition on that committee. I guess that's good, province to come down to Richmond. A bunch of them but I think that it would have gone a long way towards came down — I think about 100, maybe 150 of them. more credibility for the recommendations that will be We spent all day, nine o'clock in the morning till about coming out. I hope that they'll be worthwhile recom- four or five o'clock at night, just talking about nothing mendations and significant changes that will close some else except for local government elections. People from of the gaps. all over the province were there. It was a powerful ex- Again, I believe that it's a role that all Members of perience, and it was well worthwhile. the Legislative Assembly should have, because of its I think I've covered most of the ways that we have non-partisan nature. The issue should be non-partisan, tried to get out there. We created a great website. I'm should have involved a bipartisan — tripartisan, actually sure the member's been on the website. It's localelec- — setup. So we'll agree to disagree on that. tionstaskforce.gov.bc.ca. If the member hasn't been on The issues were significant. Now, police conducted there, he should go have a look. investigations in West Vancouver, Central Saanich, We published all of our discussion papers. It was sug- Langley, Summerland and Gibsons following the 2008 gested that we do that. We decided that that was a good election, and they recommended charges in many of suggestion, despite the fact that it was a heck of a lot those cases. I don't believe any charges came about out of work for staff. We've done that. We've tried to be as of that, despite RCMP recommendations. So the Crown transparent as we possibly can be, and I think we have did not proceed, obviously. been very transparent. As the minister said, you looked, in the task force, at We've tried to bring people into this process in a non- this very, very carefully. How was the decision made? political way. The member says: "You know, it shouldn't Who made the decision for no charges to be laid against have been so political." Well, it actually hasn't been pol- anybody out of that 2008 election problem? itical at all. There's been no partisanship involved in this process. Had it been a legislative committee, it would Hon. B. Bennett: Well, the way that enforcement is have been political. We wouldn't have been able to done today is…. I think that it's fair to state my own per- have UBCM members on it. It would've had NDP, B.C. sonal view. I don't think that it's adequate. I think it's really Liberal…. It would have been, just by its very nature, difficult for members of the public and local government combative and political, and we didn't want to do that. folks to have an investigation of something done. [1620] Under the current rules, essentially, you go to the We wanted to have more of an academic process, al- RCMP, they decide whether they're going to take the most, where we asked people to give us their thoughts in file to the Crown prosecutor, and the Crown prosecu- writing. Instead of standing up at a microphone and giv- tor decides whether they're going to lay charges. In this ing a speech, whatever might come to mind, we wanted case, there were certain situations where the RCMP de- them to think about this. We wanted them look at the cided that there wasn't criminal intent. In fact, in many discussion papers that were posted on the website, think of the cases they decided that there wasn't criminal in- about these complex issues and then tell us what they tent, and so they didn't take the file further to theC rown think in writing. prosecutor. We believe that was the right way to go, and we're Where they did, and the member referenced a situation really proud of the process, and we're proud of the re- like that where they did, the Crown prosecutor decided port that is very quickly shaping up. not to take the issue to court, to lay charges. I don't know…. I wasn't there when that decision was made, and S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. I got a I have no way of knowing on what basis the Crown pros- roundabout answer there. I don't know if I actually got ecutor's office decided not to go any further with it.I have the answer. This is an issue that is important to allB ritish some inklings as to…. I could guess, I suppose, but I'm Columbians. not going to do that. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5665

So that's how the process works, and certainly, the So you may see some recommendations in the report. government, the minister, has nothing to do with that. I can't say for sure, but you may see some recommen- [1625] dations around education. You may also see some I do think the fact that these half a dozen situations recommendations going to, I think, a more thoughtful that emerged in 2008…. I think the fact that nobody, as and useful compliance and enforcement regime as well. I understand it, ended up going to court is a signal that the system recognized there wasn't criminal intent here S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. in these situations, at least for the most part. I don't re- Can he tell us who the Crown prosecutor was? Is there member all of the situations, so I'm not going to say that any way to, like, track what the rationale was? I mean, if there was no criminal intent anywhere in any of these the task force doesn't do it, is that something that's avail- situations in 2008. But the vast majority of them were able to a citizen? Is that something they can look up if situations where people had either misunderstood the we know who that was? Maybe that's something… I can rules or didn't take the time to know what the rules were check court records myself. and got themselves into a jam. I'd be curious to see. I've had a lot of questions put to Police looked at it. In some cases the Crown pros- me as critic as to why those charges were dropped. That ecutor looked at it and decided that these folks are not rationale, I would have thought, would have been dis- criminals and shouldn't be taken to court, that they cussed at the task force level, since you're going to be should be admonished and sent on their way so that making recommendations. A task force that was created they do a better job next time. out of these cases, at least in part…. So is that something We think we can improve that whole process, and you that can be made available? will see recommendations that will deal with that pro- [1630] cess at the end of May. Hon. B. Bennett: Well, as I said earlier, I'm not going S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. So the char- to be contacting the Crown prosecutor's office. However, ges were dismissed. Were these charges reviewed by the the member could contact the Crown prosecutor's offices task force? The rationale for dismissal of all charges — in Central Saanich and West Vancouver. I don't know was that discussed? And thirdly, was it one single Crown what the response would be, but certainly, that would be prosecutor that made the decision to not proceed with where he could go. He could ask them, you know, why any of the charges? they made the decisions they made not to lay charges. Contrary to what the member has suggested, our Hon. B. Bennett: I learned a long time ago not to call purpose at the task force was not to do specific inves- judges, and I've added Crown prosecutors to that list. I tigations and analysis of investigations that the RCMP have no idea what the rationale was. did. Our purpose was to look at those situations to de- To the second part of the member's question, what termine whether or not there was a gap in the local the rationale was for the Crown prosecutors…. There government elections process, either on the administra- were two cases, two communities — West Vancouver tive side — dealing with ballot boxes and who can vote and Central Saanich — where the RCMP actually gave and the lists and that sort of thing — or more on the fi- the file over to the Crown prosecutor. You know, they nancial disclosure, campaign finance side. would have analyzed it on the basis of whether there's a That's where we focused: what are the gaps, if any, in likelihood of conviction. They made a decision. I have the local government elections process? We used those no way of knowing, nor would I even consider asking, cases, certainly, to try and identify those gaps, but we why they made that decision. didn't get into specifics of legal investigations. Our job as a task force is to look at those situations in those half a dozen communities and figure out whether S. Fraser: Thanks,I guess. I mean, the hope is that out or not there was a gap in the process. For example, was of this task force we'll get recommendations that will go there a gap with how education is done? It's not all about to the heart of some of the flaws and weaknesses in the investigations and penalties and enforcement and tak- electoral process at the local level. That, I would suggest ing people to court. That should be a last resort. — and I'm sure the minister would agree — is to make The member knows this, andI 'm sure everyone on the sure, hopefully, that the process isn't tainted, wrongly other side agrees with this: 99.9 percent of the people or rightly, and that those involved in local governments that put themselves up for election to local governments can do so with maybe more security and more know- are good people who are doing it for all the right reasons. ledge. I agree with the minister in his submission that We shouldn't be going after them from a point of view education should be a part of that, so hopefully, we'll see that they're criminals or something. We should try and that coming forward in the recommendations. figure out: why didn't they follow the rules?A nd a lot of However, I guess we will never know the deliberations times it's education. that happened that the task force was involved in when 5666 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

making these decisions. The minister here in estimates ister of the Crown. For the member to suggest somehow is not giving me any details about what charges were or other that our process is faulty because I didn't want contemplated, what the rationale was from the RCMP to breach these very, very standard rules of conduct for a to do multiple charges, what the rationale was for the minister…. I'm not quite sure where he's coming from. dismissal of all charges. I would suggest that the member consider going on Those are things that, without the public knowing, the website and having a look at the papers that are without us legislators knowing, we won't know if you've there. You know, set the politics aside. If he truly wants closed the gaps, if the recommendations will have dealt to understand all the work that was done on this task with those issues at all. I would put that to the minister force, to understand the complex issues that were dealt that that would be…. Again, it could bring some skepti- with by this task force, go on the website and have a look cism to a process that should have been a lot more open at these papers. I don't know how many, because they're and a lot more inclusive. not numbered, but there are at least a dozen fairly exten- The minister, at the Lower Mainland Local sive, detailed papers on all of the different topics that the Government Association…. I know it's still before he's task force dealt with. making the recommendations public, but he did allude We spent a considerable amount of time…. Not to that their recommendations may not include contri- jump around particularly, but I can't resist responding to bution limits. Now, I guess, that's the prelude to this the member's comments earlier that, somehow or other, question. The minister might be surmising this. I've because our task force wasn't a legislative committee, we led up to this by trying to get some details about the were more political. In fact, if it had been a legislative rationale for the RCMP-recommended charges and the committee, you would have had NDP and Liberal — no- subsequent dismissal of those charges. body else, no local government representation. That, to I mean, that whole issue out there, if it's involving me, would be far more political. contributions, which is surmised by many, and how To say, as the member did, that members of the op- that contribution process happened and the appear- position didn't have an opportunity to participate in ance of impropriety, at the very least…. If the minister this task force…. Of course they did. Everybody in the says that they didn't look deep enough into those char- world had an opportunity to make a submission to this ges to know really what was going on, and he's already committee. All they had to do was read the papers and suggesting to the Lower Mainland government, the mu- understand what the issues are, because they're complex. nicipal association, that there will be no contribution Read the papers, understand what the issues are and limits contemplated in the recommendations, how do then make a written submission. we know that gap is being closed, if there is a gap? The member had that opportunity. Every member What issues were there in the charges that were de- over there had that opportunity. Everyone in the world liberated by the minister and the task force to lead to had an opportunity to make a submission to this task recommendations that include no contribution limits? force. Tell us what you think. Tell us if you like the idea [1635] of contribution limits. I didn't get the member's submis- sion. I didn't get any submissions other than from the Hon. B. Bennett: My staff is looking up the specific Leader of the Opposition. So you know, it's a little hol- situations that the member has referenced from the 2008 low to say that you didn't have the opportunity. local government elections. You know, I have to disagree In terms of the situations that the member has referenced quite vehemently with what the member has indicated. I from the 2008 election, there were five or six situations get that he's in opposition and he has to say these things, from 2008. One was in Central Saanich. The member but I mean it's just nonsense to suggest that the task has mentioned that situation. The RCMP investigated. force didn't look at the situations where people were ac- They recommended 19 charges. The Crown counsel cused of wrongdoing in the last election. We looked very, chose not to proceed. I don't know why. The member is very seriously at them, and my staff is looking up the list welcome to go to the Crown counsel and ask, if he wants of those situations now. to. I don't know if they'll tell him, but he can certainly No disrespect intended to the member, but it is bi- ask. I'm not going to ask, as a minister. zarre for him to continue to suggest that I, as a minister There was a situation in Langley where a local par- of the Crown, should know why the Crown prosecutors ent group ran an advertisement that promoted a slate of made the decision they made to not lay charges. It ac- board of education candidates. The media said that they tually would be completely improper for me to contact failed to identify themselves. It was investigated by the the Crown prosecutor's office and ask them why they RCMP. They didn't recommend any charges. didn't lay charges. [1640] It would also be, in my opinion, improper for me to There was a situation in West Vancouver; that's the contact the RCMP and ask them why they made their third situation. It was reported that two citizens asso- decisions. That's just not appropriate conduct for a min- ciations campaigned extensively on behalf of some of Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5667

the candidates without identifying themselves to local specific question.I 'd like to go back to the task force, but government as "campaign organizers." In that situa- I'd like to touch maybe on the other task force that I just tion, there was a citizen or some citizens who filled out a need a bit of information on. I have some other questions, complaint and gave it to the West Vancouver police de- as well, around a municipal revenue-sharing agreement partment. They investigated those allegations. with resort municipality revenue-sharing. So a couple of They recommended charges, and the Crown counsel questions there, but if I could allow my colleague to ask chose not to proceed. Again, I have no idea why they a specific question on behalf of a constituent, I'd really chose not to proceed, other than that the standard test appreciate that, because he's got another obligation. for Crown prosecutors, basically, is: what are your chan- ces of conviction? So one would assume that they didn't D. Donaldson: Thank you to the critic and to the min- feel there was a great chance for conviction. ister's staff for fielding this question.I hope you have the Summerland — there were some mistakes made there. appropriate staff here. It's a question from a constituent You know, I would characterize those mistakes as honest of Stikine. He lives in the regional district of Bulkley- mistakes by elected people not really understanding the Nechako. It's a question around regional districts. His rules. They need to get the rules right, and we need to name is Eugene Becker, and he's done some very exten- educate them better. We need to do a better job on edu- sive thinking on the structure of regional districts. cation. We need to make sure that when people submit He feels that the structure is flawed from the aspect themselves to this local government elections process, of a person elected in a municipality also being able to they know what they have to do. So as I said earlier, sit as a voting member on a regional district board. He's there might be some recommendations around that. written numerous letters on this topic. The minister may In Gibsons there was a court case launched by four be familiar with some of them. residents to invalidate an election. They allege that there The most recent one was to the inspector of munici- were irregularities in vote counting. The judge noted palities. It's one of the most recent ones — February 11. that all the rules were not followed, but there was "no Mr. Becker has done some research on his own. He has evidence of bad faith, only inadvertence and errors." investigated municipal districts in Alberta, for instance. That goes to my point that for the most part, folks A municipal district in Alberta includes farmlands that make mistakes in local government elections are and unincorporated areas. They elect one councillor not crooks. They're people who maybe haven't taken for a ward. There are 64 of these kinds of structures in the time they should have and maybe need to be ad- Alberta. monished for not following the rules properly, but they [1645] shouldn't go to jail or be horsewhipped or anything. So the question under this budget vote is: can the The point here is to figure out where the gaps are and minister describe any plans under this vote to review the why they made mistakes, help them not make mistakes regional district model to assess its efficacy? next time, educate them, work on compliance and — if absolutely necessary — do an investigation and have ap- Hon. B. Bennett: Hon. Chair, if I can just get the propriate enforcement. So we have learned from all of member to nod, to make sure that…. There are two dif- these situations, despite what the member has indicated ferent situations this could be, and I think I know which in his earlier statements. one it is. You were talking about a situation. Your con- stituent is concerned about a situation where somebody S. Fraser: I was merely referring to the minister's re- is sitting both on the regional district as an electoral dir- fusal to come up with any information on the questions ector and on a municipal council. Is that the situation? I was asking around those court cases. You kept circling Okay. I had the nod in the affirmative. around that one, and you finally came up and read some Yes, we are aware of that. There are two instances of details that were looked at by the task force, which is that in the province. I've attended all five regional local illuminating. government association meetings. From time to time — Suggesting that the opposition had a chance to submit a not at each one of the five, butI think at a couple of them, written submission to the task force is not what I call inclu- anyway — people have come up to me and said: "You sivity. Being involved, we are legislators, regardless of our know, that may be an issue." The member's constituent political stripes. We are elected to do that. We all represent has written in, and I know we're aware of that. municipalities and municipal governments and regional The local government elections…. Sorry, I've talked district governments that are affected by these potential about the Local Government Elections Task Force so changes. If the minister had made a truly open process, much that I've got it on the brain. The Regional District then we wouldn't be having to spend this much time in es- Task Force, which was created by the previous minister timates trying to pry some information out of the minister. that had this portfolio, did look at a myriad of issues. I guess now I'm going to ask for a liberty here after They didn't actually make any recommendations to gov- this. Maybe I'll get it or not. I have a member that has a ernment on that particular topic. 5668 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

What I've said to UBCM is: "Do you know what? If volunteer matching program and the employee loan this is an issue in local government, tell us what you want program or secondment to VANOC. It indicated that government to do." You know, the opposition would be there were four ministry employees involved in the the first people to be down on us if we just did some- volunteer matching program. That was the program thing sort of top-down without consulting with UBCM whereby employees could volunteer some of their time, and without them asking us to do it. I've actually said and a matched amount of time would be given to them quite recently to UBCM that if this is an issue you want while they were paid to work in the Olympics. us to address, tell us. I think you may perhaps see a reso- My understanding is that there were four. At least ac- lution come forward in September. cording to the report, there were four from this ministry, I hope you'll tell your constituent that you've raised and I'm wondering if I could find out what the cost was this, that the minister is aware of it. I think we need local associated with those four employees. government to give us some guidance on whether they want us to address it or not, and that's where it's at. Hon. B. Bennett: The member is correct. There were four ministry employees who volunteered for the D. Donaldson: Thank you for that answer. I may not 2010 Vancouver and Whistler Olympic and Paralympic have added enough information to that question. It's the Games. They volunteered for 244 total hours between flipside, as well, that the constituent is concerned about, the four of them. where an elected municipal councillor also sits on the She's probably asked every minister that has come regional district board, which is the structure we know through here the same questions, and I'm sure she's the regional districts are constructed under. aware that they pay their own travel and accommoda- I never talked about a top-down approach by his min- tions. So 244 hours. We will figure out the value of that istry. What I am asking is if he's heard from UBCM on and get that to the member. this kind of issue and if he's looking, under this budget vote, at investigating the efficacy of the current model of K. Corrigan: I had one more question, and that was regional districts. to do with the employee loan program. My understand- ing was that there were two employees from the ministry Hon. B. Bennett: I'm happy to repeat the answer I that were seconded to VANOC. I'm wondering if I could just gave you. I said that yes, I have talked to UBCM get the same information — the value of the salary and about this. There is some interest out there in local gov- benefits associated with those two employees and also a ernment circles in discussing this at least, if not perhaps confirmation that that is the correct number. imposing a change or a fix. As I said a second ago, I'm going to let UBCM take Hon. B. Bennett: I can confirm the member is correct the lead on this. If they want us to make some chan- — there were two ministry employees who were seconded ges around this situation, I think government would be to work at the games — and make the same commitment more than willing to do that. But we don't want to force to the member that we'll dig that information out for her a solution on them until they've come to us and said, and provide it to her as quickly as we can. "We want you to fix this," and they haven't done that yet. S. Fraser: Hon. Chair, thanks for the little interlude K. Corrigan: I had a couple of quick questions about there and the change of pace. the Olympics that I was going to ask the minister. The I guess just to finish up on the local government task ticketing report that was published recently indicated force…. The elections coming up — what's the timing that the minister did not attend any Olympic events. on this? Recommendations have to come forward, I First of all, perhaps just a confirmation from the minis- know. Does that come back to the House in the form of ter that that was correct. legislation, and if so, when? The timelines — can this be done in time for the next municipal election? Hon. B. Bennett: That is correct. [1650] Hon. B. Bennett: I won't give a lot of detail on the go- forward steps for this work. If the member wants more K. Corrigan: Again, I wanted to ask about whether or detail, I'm happy to provide it, but I don't want to use up not there were any other hosting costs associated with his time with more detail than he wants. this ministry. The report will go to government andUBC M on May 30. It will then be up to government to decide which of Hon. B. Bennett: My ministry had no hosting costs. the recommendations will be adopted from the report. It will then be up to government to deal very expeditiously K. Corrigan: Recently the Ministry of Citizens' with any recommendations that require legislation and Services put out a press release that talked about the regulation as well. Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5669

We're going to have to get busy with this immediately If I could move on. We have, of course, the other task following receipt of the report to be ready in time for the force of big importance to the province around indus- next local government election that's scheduled for, I be- trial taxation, and I don't know if that requires a slight lieve, November of 2011. staffing change. Does Nicole get to retire, then, or go [1655] back to work? Our commitment is that we will have whatever On March 10 the minister announced the joint review recommendations government decides to adopt in legis- of major industrial property assessment and taxation in lation — those that need to be legislated — for the next the province. It's near and dear to many in the prov- local government election. It's been a tight time frame ince with the issues, the recent court challenges, around to get this done, but my own personal view is that you taxation. work better when you're under pressure. You could give I know that four communities in particular — Port the task force twice as much time and come up with the Alberni, the heart of my constituency, and then there same recommendations, I think. were Powell River, Campbell River, North Cowichan — We work really hard at it, and I think we had lots and all faced specific challenges with, in this case, Catalyst. lots of public input into the process. I think the report is Other communities faced similar challenges. going to be great. I think we can get the legislation done It certainly was an issue at the UBCM also. It was a in time for the fall 2011 election. It is a lot of work for staff, very well-attended session, as the minister knows, on the but we fully intend to meet our commitment to have the issues around industrial taxation. It was well attended, as recommendations adopted into legislation or regulation the minister also is aware, not by just the representatives or policy in time for the November 2011 election. from these four communities or other communities, but even the urban centres were very interested in this, too, S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. You've because of the potential, I guess, around vacations for all touched on something — the date of the election. If taxation — corporate, industrial, whatever. As the min- there were a recommendation…. The minister may not ister is very well aware, there are a lot of concerns about be able to answer this without divulging some of the how to fund basic infrastructure for towns and cities. recommendations. One of the things that were pon- Since that announcement, I don't have a lot of fur- dered by the task force was potentially changing the ther information on the role of the task force. I guess term of the electoral process locally to four years. Is he I don't believe it's necessary for me to go through the able to comment on that? I guess that would be another same thing I did with the last task force. option to give a little more time if that were required. [1700] For the record, this is another task force that excluded [H. Bloy in the chair.] the members of the opposition and the member for Delta South. Again, she's not able to be with us in this I don't know if that's even something that was con- room today, but I said that I would certainly be raising sidered — to move an electoral process out one year that issue on her behalf too — that she has great con- hence. Is that something that was contemplated, or is it cerns that she was not able to take part in this task force something that the minister can comment on? to have any meaningful role at all. Again, I would put that point out — another pro- Hon. B. Bennett: We certainly have no plans — either test from myself and the independent member of the we being government or, as far as I'm aware, the task Legislature that this should have been a more inclusive force — to recommend changing the date for the next process. However, at least the previous task force…. local government elections. So the hypothetical about At some point, the minister reversed his decision and whether it's three years, four years…. Whatever the allowed the publication of the submissions to be made recommendation might be on that won't change the so that the public had some way of tracking what was be- date. At least, that's my understanding today, standing ing submitted to the task force and whether or not they here in estimates. were being listened to or whether submissions were go- My understanding is that we would not consider ing into a black hole, so to speak. That,I think, was useful changing the date of the next local government election. — the minister's decision to reverse that decision. I wouldn't say that I can absolutely guarantee that, but I This task force we don't know much about, so I guess think it's doubtful. I'm looking for a bit of information. Firstly, about the meetings — are there plans for public consultation? S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. I wasn't How many times has the task force met? I guess that'd fishing. It was just something that came to mind that be the first couple of questions around that issue. that might be a possibility. I don't know the efficacy of changing an electoral term during the term. It would Hon. B. Bennett: Just a clarification. The member probably be unprecedented, but it was just a thought. said that the minister "reversed his decision," and that 5670 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010 was in relation to posting the papers on our website. The It's a very complex issue, and we need to look at tech- Local Government Elections Task Force is not a com- nical solutions before the elected people get a crack at ponent of the ministry. I don't make decisions on behalf saying whether they like it or they don't like it. of the task force. It's a consensus-based, democratic group made up of representatives from the government S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister. caucus and from UBCM. We decide jointly how we do Going back a few comments ago, I met with the things. We've made every single decision that way, and UBCM early on when the task force was named, the first every single recommendation that's going to come out is task force on electoral reform with the Leader of the a consensus-based decision. Opposition, and we expressed our concern that the pro- I should put the member on notice that every time cess was not going to disclose the submissions, so there he criticizes anything that's recommended, he'll be was no way to track them. criticizing UBCM just as much he'll be criticizing the The minister was making statements in the press. His government. He's fair to do that, but that's the truth. statements were regarding that he was not going to…. With regard to the industrial taxation task force, there They were not going to be made public. He was quite are actually two groups that I want the member to be definitive on that, yet he was making comments openly aware of. The task force consists of a steering committee to the press at the time suggesting that what he was that has my deputy minister, Dale Wall, on it and Connie hearing…. He was hearing that nobody was concerned Fair, who is president and CEO of B.C. Assessment. about campaign finances or that it was a free market of It has Robert Hobson, who is the Central Okanagan the democracy, or something like that. regional district chair. He's also an alternate on the Local He was out there making statements about what he Government Elections Task Force, co-chair of this in- was hearing. He was refusing to make those public. We dustrial taxation group and past president of UBCM. raised those concerns with the UBCM. We were told Dan Rogers, the mayor of Prince George is on there; that basically, it's being controlled by you and your of- Lawrence Chernoff, the city of Castlegar — one of the fice.I t's good to hear that the decision was made that the communities, actually, in the province dealing with UBCM were able to have a role in changing the mind the company that was refusing to pay its taxes; Gary of the task force or changing the role of it to open up MacIsaac, who's the executive director of UBCM; Gerry the submissions to make sure that they were available to Armstrong, who is a UBCM consultant and a very, very the public, so there was some way of tracking and some knowledgable, smart guy in taxation; and one business form of accountability. representative, Jock Finlayson, an economist who hap- Thanks to the minister for trying to clear that up pens to be the executive vice-president for the Business for me, but there were reasons that I raised those con- Council of B.C. cerns, and they were based on past statements made by Then to advise that main group there's an advis- the minister himself and in consultation with UBCM. I ory committee. There are a couple of CAOs: one from didn't make that up. It was meant with no disrespect to Elkford, one from Powell River. UBCM at all. I applaud the decision to change and open There's David Lane from the Canadian Property Tax up that process so it was, at least, trackable to some ex- Association; Bob Laurie from the Vancouver Board of tent for the public. I think that was a wise move, and I Trade; Jon Garson, B.C. Chamber of Commerce; Ken thank the minister for that. Just for clarification.I wasn't Peacock, Business Council of B.C.; Mike Martin, general trying to get anybody riled. I congratulate the decision. manager from Teck Cominco from the Trail operation; Going back here…. Okay, the task force on indus- Brenda Gibson with UBCM; again, Gerry Armstrong; trial taxation is created, and for all the makeup of that, Andy Robinson, who is also a very, very knowledgable I thank the minister. Is there anywhere to find this? I guy about taxation; Christine Dawkins, who is with haven't been able to get any information on this. I don't the Ministry of Finance; Mike Furey, who's our ADM see anything about meetings — how often they meet, for local government for the ministry; Talitha Soldera, when the scheduling is, what dates are available. What who's also with the ministry, works in this field; andR ob sort of work is this committee doing? Can you give us Fraser, another member of our ministry who works in just a hint of what the process is for this committee? The this field. makeup is good. How often are they sitting, and is there [1705] a schedule available? This is quite a technical exercise to try and figure out what we might be able to do together with local gov- Hon. B. Bennett: I think the member makes a good ernment to address industrial taxation rates. The reason point. He is the critic, and he has every right to know why these committees were struck the way they were is how this process is working. I frankly have not been very that we didn't…. You'll notice I'm not on it, for example. involved in this process. The member said that it's being You'll notice there are no MLAs on this committee from run by the minister's office. It must be somebody else in any party. The reason was that it is such a technical issue. the minister's office. It's not me, because I really haven't Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5671

been that involved in the process. I've spent most of my with them and be as open and creative with them as we time working directly with local government and, to possibly can without breaching any of our important rules. some extent, with the companies, because I believe that's where the solutions are in individual communities. N. Simons: I take it that co-financing is off the table. I must say that the deal that was worked out between I would appreciate confirmation of that, and I'm just Catalyst and Powell River is probably a pretty good wondering if that would make the Powell River council model, generally speaking. There's going to be a dollar concerned. asked, and then I'm not sure what we're going to do with My second question has to do with the level of con- that, but generally speaking, the company and Powell sultation required when discussing or getting involved River have done a really good job of coming to grips with in liquid waste management plans. What is the statutory how they can help each other and how they can partner. obligation of municipalities — and, indirectly, the prov- I really do believe that in terms of industrial taxation, ince — in ensuring that there's a consultation process on that's where the solutions are going to be. Nonetheless, liquid waste management plans? there's policy work that has to be done around industrial taxation, and that's what this committee is doing. Hon. B. Bennett: Two parts to my answer, hon. Chair. [1710] The first part deals with the member's summary of whatI What I would offer to the member is, first of all, a said in my previous answer. To clarify…. I definitely don't briefing from staff on this process, and also, we'll give want the member going back and speaking to the Powell the member a copy of the terms of reference so that River media, or to the Powell River mayor and council, you understand how it's working. It's not intended to and saying that the province is not interested in helping be secretive. The people who were on there are mostly to fund waste management. We are. We're talking with provincial government employees and a few business Powell River quite regularly, in fact, about helping. people. There's nothing conspiratorial about the process. I'm not quite sure what the member meant when he We're just here, and we're just trying to help. said "co-funding," but we're in the business in this min- istry and in this government of helping local government N. Simons: I'm pleased that the minister referenced to deal with their challenges around water treatment, sew- Powell River, and my question is about Powell River. age treatment and so forth. We're still talking, and I hope that we'll be able to come up with something on that. Hon. B. Bennett: For some reason I was just thinking [1715] of Powell River. I don't know why. With regard to the second part of my answer, on the member's main question, it really is a question for the N. Simons: Yeah, well, I understand that. It's a beauti- Minister of Environment, but I think he may have al- ful city. ready been through estimates. What I can tell the I'm wondering if the provincial government is planning member — to the best of my knowledge, as a minister to directly or indirectly subsidize the Catalyst mill in who's not responsible for this — is that there is a con- Powell River through the financing of the co-treatment siderable obligation for public consultation prior to the plant. I'm talking about liquid waste management. Minister of Environment making that final decision. I think the member can count on public meetings Hon. B. Bennett: It's a good question. The deal that for sure — I shouldn't say several, because I don't know has been worked out between the company and the how many public meetings — and significant consulta- community does involve some sharing of services, so of tion with the public. course Powell River, as the member is no doubt aware, has approached government over the past few years to S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for allowing others assist in funding some sewage treatment–type facilities. to jump in here. We're kind of fluid, I guess is what you Government, obviously, doesn't want to be in a position would say. I would take the minister up on the briefing where they're subsidizing business. It's one of our core — that would be very helpful — on the industrial taxa- policies in this government, so we won't do that. tion task force. At the same time, we can't say to communities, "We He mentioned terms of reference. The steering com- want you to sit down and work with these companies and mittee as such — do they have a charter that guides their try and figure out some way that you can have them re- work? Is it something adopted, or is the terms of refer- duce their industrial taxation so that they can keep their ence what he's referring to? doors open and so that they can be more competitive," and then have such strict rules that the communities Hon. B. Bennett: We unfortunately don't have a copy just aren't able to do that. of the terms of reference with us. Otherwise, we could I think the answer to the member is that we admire what provide those to the member on the spot, but we defin- they're trying to do in Powell River. We're going to work itely will. 5672 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

The terms of reference are what guides this committee briefing from staff, on what the meaning is of the report in its work, and I think that through a briefing, the mem- that was done. I invite all members of the opposition to ber will have an opportunity to ask all of the questions engage in the process. he wants to determine what the guidelines generally are, We're just not going to have a lot of public meetings, in addition to those that are contained in the terms of which tend to be highly political, because we don't want reference. to politicize the process.

S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister. I know these are S. Fraser: Thanks to the minister for that. The mem- technical things. ber for Powell River–Sunshine Coast is going to have Taxation is always a fascinating subject, and every- another question. body has got an opinion, but will there be…? I mean, A follow-up on this one, just to close off this bit.O kay, does the minister know of or will he support some sort so there's no public consultation process, but is there of public consultation process that will…? any consideration of, or is it possible that the minister I am, as critic, getting a lot of questions about what would consider, even some sorts of updates, just to let the heck is happening. There isn't anything published the public know? It could be done on line, in a website, about this since the announcement has been made. The at the ministry website — something to let people know, public really doesn't have any oversight at all on this. even in the most general terms, what the task force is As the minister knows, as I mentioned before, this was doing, the general content and/or the timing or how a big session at the UBCM. So there are a lot of issues often they're meeting, and what topics in general they're there that the public is interested in. Will there be some deliberating. process available to the public? I'm sure the minister must be getting the same ques- tions I am, so I believe that would be useful, but if the Hon. B. Bennett: I would suggest to the member minister can comment. that the public is, in fact, in a fairly strong position here because their duly elected representatives in local gov- Hon. B. Bennett: I'm advised that the process is very ernment do sit on this committee. This committee has fluid, that it is moving around a lot. There are a lot of committed to reporting out at the next UBCM conven- different parties at the table with many different points tion in September of this year, where no doubt there will of view, so there really is no consensus at this point and be a healthy debate, discussion, and then it would be out no consensus perhaps even in sight that would enable in the public realm. us to report out. We will have a public discussion about this prior to I understand that the member, as critic and as a for- government taking any sort of action, if there is any ac- mer mayor, is interested in what's happening in this tion to be taken. process. What I would suggest to him is that he come and talk to me every now and again, or I'm happy to S. Fraser: Just to be clear, there's no public process set up meetings with senior staff to just let the member anticipated, then, besides the reporting out at the end know the kinds of discussions that are happening. of the process, and that's to the UBCM next September. I'd like to assure the member that there is no conspir- Did I get that right — just for clarification? acy to put caps on industrial tax rates in the communities of the province suddenly, without notice. We're trying to Hon. B. Bennett: If the member means by the term figure out how we can help our industry be competitive "public process, public consultation," are we going to so that they can keep their doors open and continue to have a series of public meetings around the province employ in places like Powell River and Port Alberni and to discuss what this group has come up with for ideas Cranbrook. around industrial taxation, the answer is no. We will not be having that kind of a public process, N. Simons: I want to quote from an article in the but we will be taking the report to UBCM, where all the Powell River Peak from yesterday, I believe it was. It delegates will get a chance to read and to hear a pres- just raised another question on that issue of financing. entation and to discuss and debate. They may decide to It says: "Dale Wall, Deputy Minister of the Ministry of propose a resolution or two in relation to this. Community and Rural Development, has put together a [1720] group to work with the city on interim funding requests, Then there will be, I would imagine, quite a fulsome assistance on implementing the agreement-in-principle, public discussion through the media, through meetings drafting a tax revitalization bylaw to allow major indus- with my ministry, with UBCM members. trial tax certainty for five years, and other miscellaneous Certainly, I would invite the member to get engaged items." in the discussion when this work is completed and to Would the minister be able to comment on that and come and see me, to have a briefing again, a second maybe explain what "other miscellaneous items" are? Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5673

Hon. B. Bennett: The reference to other miscellaneous be made with haste due to — I wouldn't say artificial items would have referred to the various components of deadlines — deadlines that are not set by us. the agreement between Catalyst and the community. The question is: would the ministry make sure that ad- [1725] equate consultation occurs despite this deadline? What Again, to my earlier point, we are taking a construct- I'm concerned about is that decisions might be made ive approach to this. We know that we might have to be quickly because of a funding deadline, and that might innovative, on the government side, to make this work. allow for people to look for ways of speeding things up. We want to find a way to make it work. We're definitely That's my concern, because I do think that this is a not looking for ways to not make it work. We know that major infrastructure proposal, and it's one that should there's been a lot of work that's gone into the negotia- be a lasting element of the city's infrastructure. I'm just tions and, ultimately, into the agreement that they seem concerned that the process requires some public con- to have. sultation, and if the government, if the province puts What I would say to the member, and what he can say timelines on it, it may pressure that kind of consulta- to his community, is that we are committed to working tion process. as hard as we possibly can to find a way to facilitate this I'm just wondering if the minister could elaborate on agreement between the community and Catalyst. that issue. [1730] N. Simons: There seems to be an indication that there's a very tight timeline. The city of Powell River Hon. B. Bennett: In terms of consultation, as I planned to have the co-treatment project completed mentioned earlier, the liquid waste management plan within 18 months. I'm just wondering if the minister is requires, as I understand it — not being the minister re- aware of the consultation process that's occurred to date sponsible — a lot of consultation with the public. That's on this particular innovative and interesting and contro- built into the process. versial proposal. The Minister of Environment is not going to sign off on a permit or a plan without the community having Hon. B. Bennett: I think I understand the question. considerable opportunity to talk about it, hear about it I'm going to do my best. If I don't get it right, the mem- and give their feedback to their elected representatives ber will tell me. there. The member, I would think, is aware that the infra- With regard to any sort of pressure from this ministry structure program that funds this sort of infrastructure or other agencies in government to Powell River to speed is…. The windows for applying to that are long behind things up, I mentioned earlier that there is no infra- us, and until there is a new program that comes along structure program available, no Canada-B.C. program that the federal government and the provincial govern- available. There are some smaller programs available, ment partner on, there wouldn't be, I don't think, the like Towns for Tomorrow and that sort of thing, but I level of funding for the size of project that is contem- don't think that program would have the level of fund- plated in Powell River. ing that they would need for this. Typically what we do is say to communities: "Get your There is the gas tax program. I know Powell River is planning done. Get as much of the design work as makes aware that there may be money available from gas tax sense to get that done." We actually help communities and so they may well be wanting to get something ready do that. We have people in the ministry that can help, to avail themselves of that opportunity when and if — and we have small infrastructure planning grants that well, not if — the gas tax opportunity will come. we try and find for communities. It could come as early as this fall. I don't know when My understanding is that we have said to Powell River: the opportunity will be there for communities, but that "Get that work done. We'll help you get that done so that may be the pressure that the member has heard about when the next infrastructure program comes along, in the community. You know, it's not pressure. It's just you're in a good position to apply for your funding." that if you want to apply in that particular window, you That is typically what we do with all the communities in probably should be ready by a certain time of the year. this situation. N. Simons: I appreciate that answer. I'm trying to en- N. Simons: I know that there are important things sure that the community members who are concerned happening in other parts of this beautiful country of are not going to feel that there's a timeline pressure that ours, and I was pleased to know that earlier Montreal they need to adhere to specifically, but clearly there are was leading, 2 to nothing. deadlines for applications. The concern around the timeline and the window of Are there any opportunities for government to inter- application, I think, could…. There are concerns in the cede should the proposals for this plan not be ready at community about the timeline and decisions that might the deadline of the provincial government application 5674 British Columbia Debates Thursday, May 20, 2010

programs, and would the minister have any influence If I can just get clarification from the minister. And I over that? apologize for this. When he gave me the list of the people that were on the committee, on the task force, was that Hon. B. Bennett: There is, again, this process with the steering committee or the advisory committee or the Ministry of Environment on the liquid waste man- both? Again, I apologize if I didn't get it all. agement plan that will take some time because of the requirement for public consultation, so the commun- Hon. B. Bennett: I did read them fairly quickly. I ity has that ahead of them. That is separate from where gave the member the names, first of all, for the steering you get the money to build it, but obviously they're con- committee and then, secondly, for the advisory commit- nected. You're not going to make an application to build tee, so both committees. We'll get the member a copy something before you know that you have approval from of this. the Ministry of Environment on your plan. Built into this there's…. You know, this is going to S. Fraser: I appreciate that too. It's not that I zoned take some time. The member asked how much flexibility out. I just missed whether or not that was both or not. there is in terms of our window for receiving applica- I don't know that labour…. I tried to make some tions for gas tax. This is a priority for the government, notes there. Is there any representation on this commit- for the ministry. tee from labour? I'm not aware of…. I know there are I have said this several times publicly: we admire what administrators on here — or at least one from a com- Powell River is trying to do with Catalyst. We think they munity involved or affected directly by some of these are a good model for other communities, other regions, industrial taxation problems lately. and therefore we are going to make every effort to be Are there any elected representatives? Are there any flexible and help them get their application done at the mayors? I don't think there are — from Powell River, appropriate time and to time the application window ac- Campbell River, North Cowichan and Port Alberni. cordingly. I can't guarantee the member, but we are well So two separate questions, then. Are there any labour aware of what's needed there, and we're going to do our representatives in any of that, either the steering com- best to help them make it work. mittee or the advisory committee?

S. Fraser: I have a question that's related that just Hon. B. Bennett: UBCM picked the representatives came to mind. Maybe I should know it, but if there were from local government to sit on these two committees infrastructure money — the one-third, one-third, one- and on the steering committee. That's sort of the main third opportunity — available for infrastructure grants committee. As I mentioned earlier, you have Robert through the federal-provincial initiative, and cities like Hobson, who's from the Okanagan. You have Mayor Powell River or Port Alberni were looking at changing Dan Rogers from the city of Prince George and Mayor this model of one of their public services to more of Lawrence Chernoff from the city of Castlegar. The city a…. of Castlegar, as the member is probably aware, is dealing [1735] with a similar situation to the Catalyst situation. Essentially, it would be a privatization of that service, On the advisory committee there are two CAOs to some extent. Would there still be the eligibility for — one from the district of Elkford, where industrial tax- such a grant program? It's just a curious question. I'm ation is a huge issue, with the five big coalmines there; just curious if that would work or not. and then Stan Westby, the CAO for the city of Powell River, with obvious experience in the matter — to advise Hon. B. Bennett: It's a hypothetical question, because the steering committee. we don't have a Canada-B.C. infrastructure program. I'm advised that everyone who's on there works, but We don't know what the terms of reference would be none of them would be classified as what the member for it. I have no idea what the feds are going to want refers to as labour, I don't think — if I understand what next time around. Generally, if there was a Canada-B.C. he means by labour. infrastructure program and it had a community com- ponent, which it almost certainly will, I would think S. Fraser: I think the minister does. I'm referring to that this project would certainly qualify to apply. Yeah, the paper union, Steelworkers. There are various union I would think so, although not knowing what the pro- representatives that could be there. There's certainly a gram is, I can't guarantee that, obviously. role to play, and there's certainly a perspective there that I would have liked to see on one of these committees, if S. Fraser: Thanks for the minister's answer there. I not both. apologize for the multiple hypotheticals in that question. I go back to the March 10 release from the minister. It just came to mind with the previous member's ques- Sorry to go back to that. The minister states that the tion — from Powell River–Sunshine Coast. goal "is to develop livable, economically sustainable and Thursday, May 20, 2010 British Columbia Debates 5675

financially competitive communities," which is a great, that I have said from day one and continue to say that a lofty goal, to be sure. The same release also quoted a they must pay their taxes. representative from the business community, stating This is all about labour. This is all about workers.I f you that they're looking for changes to the current property want to call it a social contract, this is all about the social tax regime. So it sounds to me like we could be facing contract. The contract is between the people who live in some major changes in the way our governments or, in- a community and a large industrial enterprise that does deed, our communities make ends meet. nobody any good at all if they go out of business. I know the minister gave assurances that there were There are factors that go into whether a business is not going to be any sudden caps foisted on anyone, but successful and is able to continue to employ people or it sounds like this committee might in fact be…. I mean, not. One of those factors is taxation costs. If the taxa- there's the potential for the committee — again, I'm tion cost for big industry is a lot higher than it is in other looking forward to the briefings — to be rewriting the jurisdictions and that big industry has the option of social contract, if you will, that's existed between com- taking its money and moving to the other jurisdiction, munities and these industries for a long, long time. where the taxes are lower, then it becomes a very rel- That would be a very significant thing to do, consid- evant factor for labour. ering that the public doesn't get access to the processes For mom and dad and the kids that depend on the that are happening, that there is no real accounting out pulp mill in Powell River or the sawmill in Cranbrook or to the public. Port Alberni, having those companies be healthy, having [1740] them keep their doors open, is part of that social con- Again, I appreciate and will take the minister up tract. All we're doing with this industrial taxation task on his offer for briefings. But I'm not the public, and I force is trying to make sure that we're not chasing these don't really have the resources to provide that level of major employers out of this province. I would assume information. that the member would be on side with that. If we're not getting an open consultation process and with the spectre of, essentially, a social contract being The Chair: Seeing no further questions, I'll call the altered, would the minister consider opening this up a vote on Vote 26. bit or even being a little more inclusive on the steering committee? Labour certainly isn't really officially or -un Vote 26: ministry operations, $302,121,000 — approved. officially recognized in this task force. Hon. B. Bennett: I am reporting completion of the The Chair:Minister, and noting the hour. Ministry of Community and Rural Development and ask leave to sit again. Hon. B. Bennett: Permission to answer the question? Motion approved. The Chair:Yes. The Chair: Before I adjourn, I'd like to thank my Hon. B. Bennett: When you think about the indus- neighbour, Wayne, who watches this program all the trial taxation and the situation with Catalyst and some time. I said I'd mention his name. of the other forest companies in the province that have stopped paying their taxes…. Let me state on the record The committee rose at 5:44 p.m.

Hansard Services

Director Jo-Anne Kern

Manager of Print Production Robert Sutherland

Post-Production Team Leader Christine Fedoruk

Editorial Team Leaders Laurel Bernard, Janet Brazier, Robyn Swanson

Senior Editor — Galleys Heather Bright

Technical Operations Officers Pamela Holmes, Emily Jacques, Dan Kerr

Indexers Shannon Ash, Julie McClung, Robin Rohrmoser

Researchers Jaime Apolonio, Mike Beninger

Editors Anton Baer, Aaron Ellingsen, Deirdre Gotto, Margaret Gracie, Jane Grainger, Betsy Gray, Iris Gray, Linda Guy, Barb Horricks, Bill Hrick, Paula Lee, Nicole Lindsay, Donna McCloskey, Bob McIntosh, Anne Maclean, Constance Maskery, Jill Milkert, Lind Miller, Lou Mitchell, Karol Morris, Dorothy Pearson, Erik Pedersen, Peggy Pedersen, Janet Pink, Amy Reiswig, Heather Warren, Arlene Wells, Glenn Wigmore

Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker.

Printing Agent Crown Publications, Queen's Printer for British Columbia 563 Superior St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 9V7 Toll-Free: 1-800-663-6105 telephone: (250) 387-6409 Fax: (250) 387-1120 e-mail: [email protected]

Rates Single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $398. GST extra.

www.leg.bc.ca

Hansard Services publishes transcripts both in print and on the Internet. Chamber debates are broadcast on television and webcast on the Internet. Question Period podcasts are available on the Internet.