Chicago-Kent Law Review

Volume 90 Issue 1 Shari'a and Halakha in North America Article 3

1-30-2015

Roundtable Discussion: Opposition to Islamic and Jewish Religious Practices in Contemporary America: Overlap and Divergences, the Anti-Shari'a Movement in America

Wajahat Ali

Lee Ann Bambach Emory University

Samuel Freedman Columbia University

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Recommended Citation Wajahat Ali, Lee A. Bambach & Samuel Freedman, Roundtable Discussion: Opposition to Islamic and Jewish Religious Practices in Contemporary America: Overlap and Divergences, the Anti-Shari'a Movement in America, 90 Chi.-Kent L. Rev. 13 (2015). Available at: https://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cklawreview/vol90/iss1/3

This Article is brought to you for free and open access by Scholarly Commons @ IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law. It has been accepted for inclusion in Chicago-Kent Law Review by an authorized editor of Scholarly Commons @ IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law. For more information, please contact [email protected], [email protected]. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 14 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 & RTS A ; IBERAL ; Author; Con- ; Author; L : The Stream : ) 1/14/2015) 8:51 AM OLLEGE OF ELETE ,C D EMARKS ARTICIPANTS OT OPPOSITION TO ISLAMIC AND TO ISLAMIC OPPOSITION P N R 13 13 O 15-16, 2013 (D HICAGO The Domestic Crusaders CIENCES C DOCX ,Liberal Arts andCollege of Dean of the S PRIL AMERICA ). PENING A O , Ph.D. candidate, Emory University; and University; and , Ph.D. candidate, Emory , Professor, Columbia University; Author; OUNDTABLE R ANTILLO T LLINOIS AT : We welcome you the Humanities to the Institute for I , Playwright, AMBACH REEDMAN B LI RLE F WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( A O NN A ANTILLO T sultant, U.S. State Department; Co-host, State sultant, U.S. EE AMUEL OUNDTABLE SHARI’A AND HALAKHA IN AMERICA CONFERENCE L S AJAHAT STRIDA NIVERSITY OF A EAN W ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION:ROUNDTABLE Sciences; Professor of History,Chicago University of Illinois at Columnist, New York Times; former Columnist, Jerusalem Post. Jerusalem Columnist, New York Times; former Columnist, U P02 - R I have been looking at the program and it is amazing. I have heard I have beenthat looking at the program and D JEWISH RELIGIOUSJEWISH PRACTICES IN CONTEMPORARY AMERICA: OVERLAP AND DIVERGENCES, THE ANTI-SHARI’A MOVEMENT THE ANTI-SHARI’A AND DIVERGENCES, OVERLAP IN at the Universityof Illinois at Chicago. Myname is Astrida Orle I Tantillo. of Liberal Arts and Sciences, and it is really Dean of the College am my pleasure to beday this final here to open of the Sharia and Halakha in this event, sponsors of thank the to first Conference. I would like America the IIT Chicago-Kent College of Law, UIC Jewish andMuslim Initiative specifically I would most the UIC Institute for the Humanities. like to thank the coordinators, UIC’s Fleischacker Samuel and Junaid Quadri and Chica- for bringing this together. much you very Rosen. Thank go-Kent’s, Mark very that are few things was can think of program yesterday’s I wonderful. than where religious to discussions of liberal democracy important more 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 14 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 14 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 14 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). : Thank you very much Dean: Thankyou very much Tantillo. We are CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW ERSON P WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( OUNDTABLE NIDENTIFIED P02 - R So we will begin this morning with a slightly different format than we different format with a slightly morning this So we will begin U We are a school with a large Muslim population in one of America’s population in We are a school with a large Muslim A of major component initiative is the interdisciplinarythis work brought about by the research done by our faculty and even by the dis- brought about byand even by done by our faculty research the in our classrooms. The resultscourse that is centered and of this research discourse on brought to a wider communityare then this campus through and actions and activities within the communities, events, publications, be part of. I would like to proud one, which we are especially including this you and I wish a veryfor coming, successful stayour cam- you on to thank you. Thank conversation today. productive pus and a very very initiative grateful for UIC’s support for the Jewish-Muslim and for all your us predecessors have given Dean’s office, and you, the of the help that years,over the We are also grateful for the which has really been terrific. support we have had frompleased to we are proud and Chicago-Kent and have worked with Chicago-Kent several on this initiative, which was times mention that there was an reallyindividual wonderful. I should also quite David Gassman who contrib- UIC, named I believe of gift by an alumnus, uted specifically for conferences on Jewish-Muslim relations, which has also helped with the conference. had yesterday—different all of the other panels—a round table dis- from cussion. I will the three participants now. They introduce will all come up. They will all speak for about or fifteen ten minutes—ten We are minutes. here, it is basically but be strict clock-watchers introduc- to short not going will then respond to one another somewhat.tions. They Then we will have an open discussion with the entire audience on the topic of the anti-Sharia Unfortunately, the—I think of this as a Lemony in America. in movement Snicket’s conference—we have had a series of unfortunate events. And one was—and this is is okay. actuallysaddest but I think everything of them the most ethnicallymost of the is one campus diverse cities, and in fact, our most in Jewish and We have a facultydiverse in the nation. with strong interests well situated studies, and so we are Islamic at UIC to take a lead and to collaboration and initiatives. in the area of Jewish-Muslim work with others 14 14 freedomlaw intertwines where and with democra- liberal of the the notions cy, that so I am grateful we are ableour cam- here on to do this conference are reallypus. So we to proud at UIC be the home of the Jewish-Muslim and all of the valuableinitiative events we and collaborations are able to do and of course today, organizations, communityhere with with other groups, especially,most College of Law. IIT Chicago-Kent with 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 14 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 14 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 15 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 , inaudi- column. column. , which was , which was a 15 15 Small Victories: The Small Victories: On Religion The Domestic Crusaders The Domestic ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM The Inheritance ELETE D Jew vs. Jew: The Struggle for the Jew vs. Jew: The Struggle OT N O (D DOCX ). , which won the National Jewish Book Award for ] Some of the other websites I have seen [ ] THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( Laughter [ 1 OUNDTABLE P02 - R Wajahat will open and then Lee Ann willWajahat will If speak, and open and then Lee Ann you Sam. then However, we are lucky—weHowever, least are over here at lucky—in last the am not sure exactlyWe also have—I we flip a what order—did the FreedmanNew from We also have Sam York Times speaking. He Wajahat Ali is a playwrightwhose work, ] . . . I’ll just say numerous other websites. say numerous . . . I’ll just ] Wajahat’s blog is called “GOATMILK.” ble 1 Real World of a Teacher, School Her Students, and their High Book Award; a finalist for the 1990 National minute to have found a wonderful person to speak in her stead. Lee Ann in her stead. person to speak found a wonderful have minute to at Emory is a Ph.D. candidate Bambach Universitywhere she is a writing United States. She received her the Islamic dissertation about Arbitration in the from J.D. and her from Harvard DivinityMasters in Theology School University She Georgia. of has clerked on the J. Ervin III for Judge Sam Bar was one of the drafters of the American Fourth Circuit, and Associa- Anti-Sharia and Anti- and Recommendation Opposing tion’s Report night, speaker last keynote with our She worked Foreign Law Legislation. on her dissertation. Abdullahi An-Na’im Michael Broyde, and Okay. worked it out? have You in. coin?—we will go and professor. He’s for a columnist is an award-winning author, columnist He isthe New York a professor Times. and writes the religion column—of Uni- out—and a professor at Columbia which I read religiously as it comes versity. He is also the author of six books, including 2015] 2015] Marsuki,Nadia was in speakers, planned our of one last bike accident a Friday. Fortunately, seems to be okay, and she helmet was wearing a she here. unable to be fly, is so to doctors not warned by her but she was would all come up here, I will find a watch and raise hand when rough- my would all come up here, I will find a remain. ly two minutes was the first major play livingAmericans about Muslim Amer- in post-9/11 ica. McSweeney’s published it in 2011. He is also an essayist, a humorist, an attorney-at-law,for and writes for I think several websites primarily goat’s milk? finalist for the 1997 Pulitzer Prize; and finalist for the 1997 Pulitzer Soul of American Jewry he was a staff reporter I have 2001. As for the in mentioned, non-fiction from 1981 to 1987, and he currentlyTimes the writes He was also a regular columnist on American Jewish Jerusa- Issues for the Post from 2005 to 2009 and has contributed to numerous other publica- lem tions and websites. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 15 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 15 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 15 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 , , 3 , you according to blogger according to blogger 2 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol All-American Muslim ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW Confirmed: Islamic Terrorist Financed Miss USA Contestant Burkaball Butterball: “Bacterial” Kosher vs Holy Halal . : Good morning. Salaams, Shalom, and everything in everything and Salaams, Shalom, : Good morning. WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH (May 16, 2010 5:02 PM), http://www.debbieschlussel.com/21971/confirmed- 16, 2010 5:02 (May LI ( (Nov. 27, 2011), http://pamelageller.com/2011/11/burkaball-butterball-bacterial- A COM . COM COM . OUNDTABLE AJAHAT P02 - R In addition, Sharia, according to others, has into our supermar- crept Sharia, according to others, In addition, Anyone know about that controversy? A simple reality TV show pro- reality TV show A simple controversy? Anyone know about that However, I say Sharia has already infiltrated and conquered America. However, I say America. Sharia has already and conquered infiltrated W AMELAGELLER Debbie Schlussel. and tahini in everykets. We have placed hummus and Safe- Whole Foods Once moms. byyou have which is eaten, daily way suburban supermarket, We won over America. youwon over suburban moms, have con- have quered American turkeys with our ally Butterball. Thanks to the intrepid conspiratorial learned about the Geller, we have culinary detective, Pamela public.” on an unsuspecting turkeys “Butterball cover-up of foisting halal 2. Debbie Schlussel, controversy. duced by TLC, that erupted in international cable network, the Debbie not know anything about this show, So if you do 2. DEBBIESCHLUSSEL We have also infiltrated the most influential voice in America—the televi- influential voice in America—the We have also infiltrated the most sion. If you guys know about last year, we had a reality TV show called All-American Muslim I mean the I signs are everywhere.mean We re-elected to the oval office, a Muslim 2012 registered voters percent of Indeed, seventeen Barak Hussein Obama. prays is anti- to the Kaaba, and as such, Hussein Obama think that Barack Caliphate. Obamacare. Second First term: American. have also We Term: made strong progress in the culture war. Three years ago, we put a tiara on Miss USA, Miss Rima Fakih, who comes from—anyone? Dearborn, Mich- Rima Miss as “The Fakih is otherwise known igan. And Hezbollah- the pageant was financed by whose bid for Islam- Muslim supporting Shiite fraud perpetrators,” ic terrorists and immigration 16 16 you this conference. for having Thank between. so much thank And you for to, myself like a non-academic allowing two days, at least for be in the company academics. you, of And thank academics, me. We for tolerating conversation inspiring, this great, heartwarming, conference with begin this you must Sharia controversythat network and the about the Islamophobia Sharia there the not followed meme, you who have of have heard. For those States Constitution with United Sharia supplanting the is a fear of creeping and Crescent.the Stars and Stripes with Star law Islamic and replacing I youhave heard of this. of think some kosher-vs-holy-halal.html/#sthash.aqVIMqfS.dpuf. 3. Pamela Geller, Pamela islamic-terrorist-helped-fund-miss-michigan-usa-pageant/. 3. P 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 15 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 15 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 16 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 , (Nov. , Mar. , Mar. AG Down- M ODAY AGE P , USA T RONT Modern Family 4 , F , 17 17 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE Family Guy D OT N O (D DOCX ). Mop sink, foot-washing sink. To-may-toe, to- foot-washing sink. To-may-toe, Mop sink, 5 ] Is it like—thank you, I will take that. You know, is You that. Is you, I will take it like—thank ] All-American Muslim: A Programmed Deception THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA Lawmakers Assured that Sink is for mops, Not Muslims WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( Laughter ? [ OUNDTABLE , worst of the worst, and Disney received World. And he his talk- P02 - R If you actually the research, the companies did actually to submitted If youIf guys have last week, following the news have been Muslims al- ton Abbey tips? Jihadi it show cooking of Al Qaeda? Does Real Housewives it like the that would cause about this show a so outrageous What is training grounds? that if youIt was so outrageous controversy? and international national Freedman guys well—Lowe’s, about this as wrote remember—Sam the into what theyretail giant, caved pressure enormous said was and withdrew of customers.a broad spectrum response from this show citing a ads from Family of Florida the name by campaign run byone organization an email Association. is an operation run byThis organization one dude with a terri- of David Caton, the sole name huge email list byble website and a the a Association, who has Family of Florida employee history of boycotting shows like who sponsor corporations Degrassi earlier show much ing points about the of the Islamophobia from members will come up again, her name a network that I will highlight. For example, show was who wrote on her blog that the Geller, Pamela lot unfortunately, not did of Jihad. I the threat ignoring Americans into trying to manipulate And also, David Horowitz’s power. know a reality TV show had that much writer wrote the show was stealth“FrontPage Magazine,” in which a prop- through the hijab. to Islam submission aganda to promote mah-toe. Humus, Hamas. mah-toe. Humus, That stuff is ridiculous. 26, 2013, http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/03/26/tennessee-muslims-lawmakers- sharia-law-mops-sink-state-capitol/2020617/. 4. Daniel Greenfield, Daniel 4. 2015] 2015] it like know, is show You about?” ask yourself,would this “What is 5. Doug Stanglin, Doug 14, 2011), http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/dgreenfield/all-american-muslim-a-programmed- deception/. 5. ready the Tennessee state infiltrated capital with our “foot washing sinks.” you if prayers—our which prayers, daily our five before ablutions For our according to Re- were paying are “acts of terrorism” attention last week, publican North Carolina State Representative, Michele D. Presnell. Senator it to national attention, uncovered the stealthBill Ketron, who brought Director, Connie Administration Legislative addition of foot washing sinks. for “I confirmedRidley, with the facility administrator wrote in an email, sink installed in the that the floor-level the State Capitol Complex men’s in lay- is for housekeeping use. It is, Chamber outside the House restroom man’s sink.” terms, a mop 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 16 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 16 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 16 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 , EWS EWS American , FOX N [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). . I am going to talk about that in the four minutes minutes in the four talk about that going to . I am CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW Boy Band Jihad: Mega Pop Star Pimping Islam on Your Daughters Mega Pop Star Boy Band Jihad: (June 6, 2012 3:52 PM), http://www.debbieschlussel.com/50331/mega-pop- 3:52 (June 6, 2012 WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( because he was acting in a way that was “consistent with because he was acting in a waythat Advocates of Anti-Shariah Measures Alarmed by Judge’s Ruling 7 COM . by blogger Debbie Schlussel. Now this is ridiculous, and we we and ridiculous, Now this is Debbie Schlussel. by blogger 6 OUNDTABLE P02 - R So the question should be, “How did this all start?” We have to go So the question should be, In fact, if you guys pay attention from last year, nearly from every single you attention guys pay In fact, if Specifically, there have been seventy-eight bills, which seek to restrict One last one—the crème crème last one—the One de la crème. interna- of the infiltration Our back to 2009 and a New Jersey court judge. The judge denied a family restraining order bya woman who said she was forced to have non- Judge Joseph Charles Jr. said husband. consensual sex with her Moroccan he did not believe the man desire to or an intent to sexually “had a criminal assault his wife” the religious freedoms of Muslims, and as we will find out in this conversa- as we will find out in of the religious freedoms Muslims, and tion, it affects not only Muslims, but also essentially all ManyAmericans. support by unfortunately, have been given mainstream Republican of them, leaders. Sixty-two of these seventy-eight model bills were based on the that template was written by attorney David Yerushalmi entitled Law for American Courts Pamela Geller He is also the private attorney of and Frank I have left. one version Six states have passed Gaffney.about Frank. I will be talking Tennessee, Oklahoma, of this bill. This includes Louisiana, Arizona, South Dakota, and Kansas. his practices.” The judge, for those of you who are attorneys, was his practices.”for those of clearly The judge, in 6. Debbie Schlussel, Debbie 6. DEBBIESCHLUSSEL (Aug. 5, 2010), http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/05/advocates-anti-shariah-measures-alarmed- judges-ruling/. 18 18 7. Maxim Lott, Lott, Maxim star-pimping-islam-on-your-daughters/. 7. should laugh, and we have laughed; however, each one of these examples of these examples each one laughed; however, and we have should laugh, has beenthat I have given network, cited by members of the Islamophobia proof that for the fictitious Sharia threat of responsible who are very much different parts of America.Sharia has infiltrated on the anti-Sharia presidential candidate of 2012 ran major Republican Rick openly: it did who of the people you the names meme. I will give Michelle Pawlenty, Cain, and Newt Gingrich, Herman Tim Santorum, Bachman. The manufactured, fictitious Sharia threat is about as threatening unicorn or Big Foot. Yet, thirty-oneas uncovering the states in the past two years we have introduced what call the anti-Sharia bill, or a version the of anti-Sharia bill. tional boy band sensation, One Direction, featuring—if you featuring—if One Direction, sensation, tional boy daugh- have band ters, you this—featuring know Zayn who is a Muslim—and Malik this is your Islam on star pimping jihad mega-pop quote, “boy-band I proof and daughters,” 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 16 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 16 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 17 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 8 OK, 2013, Aug. 15, EWS 19 19 , N Fear, Inc.: Roots of the ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA ] I also investi- an was the lead author of this document, ] WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( U.S. Judge Permanently Bans Oklahoma Islamic Law Vote OUNDTABLE Laughter P02 - R Not so fast, because the Islamophobia industry as its smok- uses that Not so fast, because the Islamophobia way that controversyAnd the same mainstreamed, the anti-Sharia was the rulingIn January that prevent- 2012, an appellate court confirmed the—it is an honorable pro- I also was In addition to goat milking, my Tim Tim Talley, gative report that we on entitled, spent six months http://newsok.com/u.s.-judge-permanently-bans-oklahoma-islamic-law-vote/article/3872460. http://newsok.com/u.s.-judge-permanently-bans-oklahoma-islamic-law-vote/article/3872460. 8 ing gun proof of Sharia infiltration. Fast-forward to 2010. We go to Okla- to 2010. We Fast-forward of Sharia infiltration. ing gun proof State homa. Question 755 State RepresentativeDuncan introduced Rex “Save also known as the Our State Constitutional Amendment.” those For yourself, “Save our state be asking you should know, youdo not of who barring measure was about the This question. “state what?” Good from law international or Islamic considering courts from when deciding cases.” because it good timing had really amendment The proposed constitutional in controversy 51 building over the Park manufactured coincided with the New York City as we remember of 2010, which in the spring and summer was neither at which controversy, Zero mosque the Ground was dubbed mosque. nor a Ground Zero, just to save we will talk about it in the discussion and was mainstreamed time. The leading grassroots organization, Act for America, anti-Muslim urge vot- in 2010 to in Oklahoma launched a $45,000 grassroots campaign radio ad a one-minute sponsored State Question 755. It also ers to support that ran across the nation to warn against Sharia. Seventy percent of Okla- threat. However, a federal judge voters non-existent voted to ban this homa the law forquickly blocked violating the Establishment Clause of the First community. and for blatantly targeting the Muslim Amendment taking effect. from state constitutional amendment ed the voter-approved Specifically, the court pointed out that proponents of the law in the opinion, Oklahoma courts which instance in of a single not knowing to admitted country. An elected of another applied Sharia law or the legal precepts not find that he could anti-Sharia bill admitted supported the official who any into the state.” Yet here we are evidence of Sharia “creeping 2013 in and thirty-one this. So there was states a genesisare still talking about to created by few people. this fear a very mongering fession. [ 2015] 2015] the overturned court appellate the two months, within And thankfully error. law and U.S. court system The So that’s great, wonderful. decision. works. Hooray. exhale, awesome. Release, 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 17 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 17 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 17 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 FOR . TR , C [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol http://cdn.americanprogress.org/wp- ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D We released it on Google. Just type in type Just it on Google. released We in 9 . DOCX ). available at available CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW (2011), (2011), Fear, Inc.: The Roots of the Islamophobia Network in America in Network Islamophobia the Fear, Inc.: The Roots of WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( 10 ROGRESS OUNDTABLE at 9. Id. P02 - R Before we go on, I think I should give the definition of Islamophobia of Islamophobia definition the should give I I think Before we go on, The threat of creeping Sharia is whollymanufactured by certain indi- Therefore, for the first time we have dissected and exposed the net- we have first time Therefore, for the dissected and exposed the .P MER A 9. Wajahat Ali et al., 20 20 America in Network Islamophobia “Fear, Incorporated.” It was Progress. Center for American I did this with how we ex- report about it is an investigative August 2011. And released over dollars million excess of 43 have given in funders who posed seven network incestuous nearly almost and interconnected, years to a small, ten religious groups, and some and grass roots right think tanks, of individuals, memes. these divisive, anti-Muslim personalities, to promote especiallythat we have covered, of Islamophobia that we have the type came up that we The definition 9/11 tragedywitnessed post the in America. fear, hatred, and is an exaggerated Islamophobia with is the following: stereo- thatnegative is perpetuated by and Muslims Islam hostility towards part— is the key this in bias, discrimination—and types resulting America’s social, from of Muslims political, marginalization and exclusion and civic life. viduals and organizations that have the rich history of fear mongering, hys- fear the rich historyviduals and organizations that have mongering, of to quickly break down how this teria, and dubious associations. And I want has network go five categories. I will not the Islamophobia happens. So in detail, I promise. We doing okayinto all of them so far? Okay. Five with the categories. Everything is first group always The begins money. identified seven funders. The money what we call the We have trail. money primarilynerve center of Is- we called the goes to the second part, which “scholars” and experts that often originate from D.C. policy lamophobia, Then the ques- are the ones who create the and think tanks. They memes. memes. How be “who cares, they are just are theytion should spread?” The work, categorized it, named the names, the and the traced the funding work, categorized it, named money, once-fringe memes that have now gone and showed the genesis of several President heard the following: you have if your head Nod mainstream. are mosques Trojan Sharia is a threat to America; is a Muslim; Obama horses; and radical Islam Apparently,there is no has infiltrated America. traditional Islam is Islam; radical Islam. such thing as What ismoderate cannot be loyal Amer- Muslims for Americans—practicing damaging most icans. Anyone heard at least one or two of these? This is very sad; everyone or her heads. his is nodding content/uploads/issues/2011/08/pdf/islamophobia.pdf. content/uploads/issues/2011/08/pdf/islamophobia.pdf. 10. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 17 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 17 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 18 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 , ERSPECTIVE P ]. It is Fox It is ]. USLIM .M laughter 21 21 MER , A ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D Despite this, he has been invited OT 12 N O A 2006 article on Mr. Yerushalmi A 2006 article on Mr. Yerushalmi (D 11 DOCX ). (May 14, 2012), 2012), 14, (May : CNN! three! ROGRESS P : Dr. Renaud wants to be a smartass to be a smartass : Dr. Renaud wants [ . . . THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA EMBER WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH HINK ( LI M EXCLUSIVE: Class Materials From Military’s Anti-Islam Class From Military’s Anti-Islam EXCLUSIVE: Repeatedly Cite Class Materials , T A two . . . OUNDTABLE AJAHAT Mapping Sharia Project Goes Beyond Islamophobia – III Project Goes Beyond Islamophobia Mapping Sharia UDIENCE P02 - R The architect uncovered of the current anti-Sharia legislation we have A W He also happens to be the attorney Geller of Pamela and the attorney as attorney David Yerushalmi. Are people familiar as attorneywith Mr. Yerushalmi? Are people familiar David Yerushalmi. head. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) are nodding their Most people anti- “He has written of Mr. Yerushalmi: has a record of anti-Muslim, bigotry.” and anti-black immigrant, News, thank you. And do not “mis-underestimate” new News, thankmedia—blogs, do not “mis-underestimate” you. And internationally been critical. After it gets mainstreamed It has online radio. these literally points memes end up as talking with a megaphone; media in theverbatim of I just gave youpoliticians, and mouths of the an example funders. the seven mention not going to am candidates. I 2012 republican I want to nerve center and money but the then goes to the We listed them, nerve center real quick. talk about the military-anti-islam-class-materials/. 12. http://www.amperspective.com/?page_id=1430 (last visited Nov. 18, 2014). 11. Eli Clifton, Clifton, Eli 11. Islamophobic Authors 2015] 2015] call what we is unfortunately, and organization, the grassroots group third they the of are members spread through these The memes religious right. which alsoconstituencies use news to the fourth group, media, which goes the media news channel news—there is a just traditional megaphone—not a let’s take of three, the count On that is very responsible. in particular guess. One of Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer’s hate group “Stop Islamatization of hate group “Stop Islamatization of of Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer’s of Islamatization being the “Stop now evolved into which has America,” Nations.” It is cited as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center and cited byagenda. We will a radical anti-Islam the ADL as promoting manufac- they are also behind the in our conversation, but talk about this by elected officials to give expert testimony on Sharia. He has appeared on press outlets, such as NPR, tomainstream he talk about Sharia even though law, or a of Arabic. master Islamic is not a scholar of Islam, even went so far as to claim: “Muslim Judeo- civilization is at war with . The Muslim those committedpeoples, to Islam . . . Christian civilization are our enemies.” as we know it today, http://thinkprogress.org/security/2012/05/14/482667/exclusive-islamophobia-network-cited-liberally-in- 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 18 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 18 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 18 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 (Dec.30, Laugh- available at at available ROGRESS P (2010), (2010), which mislabels which mislabels 14 HINK , , T MERICA A [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol t)%2009142010.pdf. t)%2009142010.pdf. ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE HREAT TO D T OT N O THE (D Despite this, he concedes, “I Despite this, he do not , 13 DOCX ). HARIAH ,S Y ’ CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW Shariah, the Threat to America OL .P EC S WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( Gaffney Accuses Observant US Muslims Of ‘Sedition’ FOR FOR . TR C OUNDTABLE See P02 - R Equating Sharia with criminality, further proposed legisla- Yerushalmi Mr. Yerushalmi is Mr. Yerushalmi is think tank SANE—S-A-N- the also the founder of I will in two minutes. name my I cannot even say What, two minutes? In 2010, and this is key,this In 2010, and the Center for Security Policy (CSP) released ] Sorry. theythe press release, would test the prop- In said the campaign ] tion to make adherence to tion to make Sharia a felony. This includes a Muslim woman who is wearing the hijab, like you in the back. That would be a felony un- Frank Gaffney who is is Mr. ally and funder der this definition. His major give a Security Policy. I want to Center for tank the founder of the think a sedi- great quote by Frank Gaffney: that is used to promote “A mosque protected religious that is not a . . . is what Sharia is which tious program, practice, that is, in fact sedition.” 2010), http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/12/30/176440/gaffney-muslims/. 2010), http://thinkprogress.org/security/2010/12/30/176440/gaffney-muslims/. 14. 13. Matt Duss, ter the U.S. conspiracy to overthrow to a criminal amounts osition that Sharia government. E, not making this up—Society of Americans for National Existence, for National Americans of this up—Society E, not making to make to Sharia a felonyadherence legislation which in 2007 proposed the years initiated organization punishable by twenty In 2007, his in prison. campaign. Enemy” in America: Knowing the Sharia project: “Mapping [ I do five? Give me five. Can so long. going Sorry for try to finish. 22 22 controversytured And Zero Ground of the mosque. I reallysaying keep that it is manufactured. how it was we should talk about And I think manu- same because that in the panel discussion factured how a about template became an a national issue, interna- issue, became a local became non-issue same tional issue—the way they did that playbook—isplay at with the Sharia controversy. Sharia as the preeminent totalitarian threat to America and the legal mili- to America and the legal totalitarian threat Sharia as the preeminent tary doctrine that seeks to political It was alsosupplant the Constitution. It is designed to provide a comprehensive co-written by David Yerushalmi. characterizations and assess- on the official and articulate second opinion U.S. government. Specifically, the ments of this threat as put forth by they define Sharia in a static, ahistorical, unscholarly way which no practicing in would ever recognize. Muslim http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/upload/wysiwyg/article%20pdfs/Shariah%20- %20The%20Threat%20to%20America%20(Team%20B%20Repor know much about Sharia, but I have talked a lot about that as a threat.” And about Sharia, know much 2010. in $300,000 has made he a 170 page report called 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 18 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 18 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 19 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 . Sha- taqiyya Lee Ann is , and I want want I , and 15 as religiously as religiously is, most Muslims is, most taqiyya , 23 23 taqiyya taqiyya LLIANCE A ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM Y ’ OL ELETE D .P OT UB N .P O at the behest of the self-proclaimed at the behest of (D MER , and concluded that the CSP report pro- , A DOCX ). THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH Nothing to Fear ( is a new is a new released bytaco guacamole Bell with extra Taco taqiyya OUNDTABLE ]. Most people have no idea. Taqiyya is an Arabic word, which an Arabic word, is Taqiyya no idea. people have Most ]. American Law for American Courts , which evaluated what theywas fifty said from appellate court cases P02 - R In 2011, Mr. Yerushalmi developed a template for the current anti- a template developed Yerushalmi In 2011, Mr. The bill, if passed, would prevent Muslim-American communities would prevent Muslim-American communities passed, The bill, if And also what they do is they mislabelthey this word theyalso what And is do laughter allowed Muslims to hide one’s faith in order to protect your life and family. It is very similar to the not say in the Jewish faith. It does concept you are it is. It sayshow insidious that every look allowed to lie, but practicing thing as a “good Mus- there is no such to them, lies. So, according Muslim youlim,” theybecause the good Muslim cannot trust are practicing Sharia legislation—I am ending now, I promise, in a minute—entitled in a minute—entitled I promise, ending now, am Sharia legislation—I AmericanAmerican Law for Courts non-partisan advocacy Policy group, American Public Alliance. The organ- values and American ization claims to America one of the greatest threats comes today from “foreign laws foreign legal doctrines, including Is- and Sharia law thatlamic has been infiltrating our court system.” to spend 20 seconds talking about it. They mislabel it. They talking about mislabel 20 seconds to spend lying.mandated they In essence, say that Islam encouragesto lie Muslims Muslimswhat ask most you deceptive. If and be will think [ 15. 15. http://publicpolicyalliance.org/legislation/american-laws-for-american-courts/Nov. 18, (last visited 2014). 2015] 2015] from having the same rights access to courts as any and having the same religious other from community in America. The fact that they have taken out the words Islamic Law—because if you realized it in Oklahoma in 2010, they guys remember Constitutional so theymuster, would not pass law replaced it with foreign or religious law—has now concerned business communities and Jewish- and Muslim-American communities. If this Catholic-American, American, going to end on I am And our rights. it infringes on all of is implemented, Gaffney’s Frank he also helped co-author 2011 report this, I promise, going to go into more detail about how this has shown up in Tennessee and has shown up in Tennessee detail about how this more go into going to Bar Associationcall this this and they reviewed Arizona. The American an anti-Sharia initiative. They manyentire said movement legislators of the anti-Sharia initiatives in other states are using the sponsoring the model by David Yerushalmi. legislation drafted ria Law in American State Courts: An Assessment of State Appellate Court Cases twenty-three states that proved Sharia had infiltrated the U.S. court system. in their 2011 report of this the findings The ACLU thoroughly debunked own 2011 report, 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 19 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 19 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 19 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 , ACLU [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D They rejected Mr. Yerushalmi’s They Yerushalmi’s Mr. rejected OT 16 N O (D DOCX ). : I want to talk a little bit about the evolution of the evolution of bit about : I want to talk a little CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( AMBACH 17 B ] NN A OUNDTABLE at 1. Nothing to Fear: Debunking the Mythical “Sharia Threat” to Our Judicial System to Our Judicial Threat” “Sharia Debunking the Mythical Nothing to Fear: Id. EE Applause P02 - R Foreign law is the law of another country, so if you have a business Foreign law is the law of you another country, so if However, the ACLU suggested an insidious purpose behind this entire entire behind this purpose an insidious the ACLU suggested However, [ L these laws and that they the various guises have appeared in. Early itera- It is not just have two prongs to them. tions were verySharia or broad and religious law; they Now law. foreign and/or international also attack there is a difference, actually, between foreign law and international law, but that “Save in Oklahoma’s gets lost in the shuffle here, especially, for example talked about, specifically That one, as we our State” Amendment. prohibit- considering inter- the courts from ed Sharia law and specifically prohibited included law of another state if it or even the and foreign law, national law Sharia law. contract with a French company,you specify and you that want French law to apply to that contract—which is called a choice of law clause and very 16. 16. (May 2011), https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/Nothing_To_Fear_Report_FINAL_MAY_2011.pdf. 24 24 ‘Sharia “[m]ythical a [t]hreat.’”moted movement to criminalize Sharia. Prohibiting U.S. courts to consider Sharia courts to consider U.S. Prohibiting Sharia. to criminalize movement rightsserves only and having the same Muslims from one purpose: to bar by defining Therefore, individuals. anyaccess to courts as religious other Sharia as a problem and as a totalitarian threat, we to assume that are now Sharia, all adherence to is anypracticing Muslim, which is essentially This casts Muslims all observant suspicion on to America. a threat deemed Politically fram- culturally, this inaccurate column. as a potential fifth and and subsequently that Islam, are all Muslims, to believe ing allows people utterly and with America’s political, civic, not only incompatible social also a continuing,are threat. In the conversation, life, but they hostile I will groups, and the political grassroots groups, the talk about how the media would like to talk about how this ac- this and I mainstreamed groups have tually has, ironically, as a American national securitymajor served threat to over; I am sorry for going I am the time. me giving you for citizens. Thank finished. unsubstantiated claims of Sharia infiltration as “wrong” and said it was and said it was as “wrong” of Sharia infiltration claims unsubstantiated judicial how our of a misunderstanding and on misinformation “based both works.” system 17. 17. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 19 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 19 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 20 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 25 25 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE where they referred—they did D 19 , OT N O (D DOCX ). Graham v. Florida where the Supreme Court decided it was not bound by Supreme where the bound it was not Court decided THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA 18 WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH , ( OUNDTABLE P02 - R We know that the Oklahoma amendment was struck down. It was was struck down. It We know that the Oklahoma amendment On the flipside, in 2010, the Supreme Court of the United States Court of the United States the Supreme in 2010, On the flipside, struck down purely on First Amendment grounds, but it could have been but it could grounds, Amendment purely on First struck down grounds. You have the other constitutional host of a whole on struck down the laws impairing Contracts Clause. States cannot pass obligation of con- law or foreign law, you Sharia cannot tract, but with a law prohibiting Thefreely a problem. of law. That would have been contract your choice as under problem, been another have Full Faith and Credit Clause would this provision they judgments from were not going to look at other if states those states’ laws somehow it was very included Sharia law, although un- clear what that really have violated the Supremacy And it would meant. Clause as well, because it may have interfered with thecer- observance of tain treaties. That is against the Supremacy Clause. So with the Oklahoma people, but and other religious Muslims you have a fear among amendment community, business including the others, it also engendered a fear among reached a decision in not base their decision on it, but they referred to—international opinion referred to—international on it, but theynot base their decision without parole. to life in prison and sentencing juveniles against convicting cases thereSo because of such legal norms is this real fear of international into the U.S. system coming the part of someand this feeling on people that we should put up a wall; we anybodyshould not look at what else is law, laws of other countries. We doing. There also is a fear of foreign there is this fear of in either. Then up a wall and not let that put should Sharia, which is what Wajahat talked about. So a lot of these are combined in a lot of these legislative efforts and it definitelyappeared in the all Okla- amendment. homa the International Court of Justice’s judgment to stay the execution of a Justice’s judgment Court of the International This saysMexican national. to the Internation- that we do not have to listen our own to according we want to and we can do what al Court of Justice, U.S. laws. 18. v. Medellin Texas, 552 U.S. 491 (2008). 19. Graham v. Florida, 560 U.S. 48 (2010). 2015] 2015] Oklahoma under allowable been in business—thatcommon not have would includes law effect. International put into been this amendment law had For influence opinions. that may of law norms international treaties and inter- have considered decisions that of court are a number there example, Court decision 2008 Supreme side there is the law. On the one national v. TexasMedellin 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 20 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 20 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 20 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 ]. I am laughter evidence of a desire to [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol report. It stated that Islam ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D prima facie OT N and egregious . . . it was introduced O so (D DOCX ). CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH bar karma from but I guess it is wortha court, a try ( Shariah: The Threat to America Shariah: can OUNDTABLE ]. However, even Even]. the same here you though problems. have P02 - R However, it was clear by singling out Sharia, the legislation was never out However, it was clear bysingling A slightly approach was taken different in Tennessee, which is one of Since the Oklahoma amendment ultimately was found not to pass con- pass was found not to ultimately Oklahoma amendment Since the laughter you are not singling out Sharia law, by specifyingyou are not singling law religious at all you are still It is with the First conflicting still bad for businesses.Amendment. amendments. other constitutional It still runs afoul of was a political, and fascist totalitarian system. military, It included wording is that said that the observance of Sharia Thanks- for Halal turkey you are eating a So if overthrow the government. It was just ludicrous. trying the government. to overthrow you are giving, pass, and in any case, going to such language was unnecessary. You can away Sharia and Islam just strip that whole language about pass a rea- and and that is indeed what ended terrorism, sonable law outlawing support for that if a bill includes language clear became So it quickly up happening. explicitly referring to Sharia specifically, or even religious law more gener- You are never going to muster. ally,pass constitutional it is never going to will just end up being struck you they do, even if get these laws passed and, Therefore,down in court, as was the the proponents of case in Oklahoma. of this law versions neutral such bills changed tactics and adopted facially my favorite laws just because it was favorite laws my by one who uncovered the stealth foot Senator Bill Ketron, the washing was sinks. The bill he introduced in Tennessee really bill. an anti-terrorism and support for terrorism, material to criminalize It was ostensibly designed to support passed with generic language regarding material it ultimately But only as it first appeared, it targeted terrorism. organizations” “Sharia The bill itself had a whole material that provided support for terrorism. Sharia, and the language in manyabout cases was lifted introduction the straight from not sure younot sure [ stitutional muster because it singled out Sharia, then the next attempt was then the next attempt Sharia, it singled out muster because stitutional broadly. law but religious For more Sharia, include just to not it to broaden things: an there was that did two in 2011 Arizona bill introduced example, or for- countries laws of foreign or incorporating it opposed implementing eign bodies in anyusing any courts from state judicial decision, and barred any but also law. So here, it was not just Sharia, religious sectarian reli- was included: it what And theygious sectarian law. described helpfully law, Canon law, would include Sharia Halakha or [ Karma 26 26 in any trade and international them this was that handicap really to going a at real competitiveput them disadvantage. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 20 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 20 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 21 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 27 27 , model legislation. And legislation. model , ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX the same protections as the U.S. Constitu- the same ). all THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( American Laws for American Courts Laws for American American OUNDTABLE P02 - R While the language of the legislation itself is facially itself legislation language of the While the it neutral, that is, over legislation and then model in the provisions There are two main a court cannotany The second provision says consider law or legal does not mention Sharia or even religion at all, the American Public Policy at all, the American even religion Sharia or mention does not page that touts this law specificallyAlliance’s website it was states that crafted because of the threat of foreign laws, especiallythe Sharia, and a lot It also includes court system. creeping into the specter of it somehow constitu- necessity the language about individual’s for protecting of lofty and children. especiallytional rights, that of women years—thethe two years—they last specific carve-outs added have as well in order to overcome arguments against especially concerns this legislation, by community the business the law’s possible impact. The about and others the citizens from law is designed to protect the model first provision of their constitutional so would violate where doing law foreign application of rights anyway, someone’s constitutional so this violate rights. You cannot anydoes not make provision is unnecessary. sense—this You cannot apply you In addition, constitutional rights. a foreign law that is going to violate alwaysyouyou. For example, state law that is above have cannot apply would violate stateforeign law when doing so criminal This is just laws. a law is just unnecessary. the total non-issue and that whole part of rights as in the parties the same fundamental would not grant tradition that U.S. Constitution. Now, this is tricky, and it is not clear what this means. If French law does not provide law? At all? There are a lot of French apply we cannot tion, does that mean have the same protections we enjoynot in this world that do legal systems etc. Islamic of religion, of press, due process, freedom regarding freedom protection equal provide do not laws law, Jewish law, and many religious It seems that for women. according to the strict language of the law, model tradition there is somethingthat in this legal the mere fact that somewhere is not totally rights accorded under the United States Constitu- equal to the need would system or legal whole legal tradition that the tion would mean be to be thrown out. It is not clear if that is the case, or how this would that can have, and, interpreted. It is provision a very worded strange, poorly on peo- a second, has alreadyas I will point out in just had a bad impact ple’s lives. 2015] 2015] newer for these Largely, at all. religion talk about does not that model the Policy American Public before: the about is what we talked bills model Alliance’s, iterations. has undergone various this, too, 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 21 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 21 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 21 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 And if you And if 20 . [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D Hamdeh v. Hamdeh OT N O (D DOCX ). CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW (May 9, 2012), http://publicpolicyalliance.org/2012/05/current-kansas- (May WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( LLIANCE A Y ’ OL .P OUNDTABLE UB Current Kansas Court Case Shows Need for American Laws for American Courts Legisla- Courts for American Need for American Laws Shows Court Case Current Kansas .P M P02 - R This is painted as terrible for women; denying women the rights that the rights that denying women This is painted as terrible for women; So the concerns we talked about earlier about international law, trea- law, about international earlier about we talked concerns So the So what is the practical effect? There have not been very cases many In 2010, there was a divorce case, , A 20. 20. tion 28 28 they would have under the U.S. legal system. However,system. the website or the they have under the U.S. legal would about what the actual outcome of the supporters of such bills do not talk case was, only Just like the husband in that the husband argued for this. to rape his New Jersey him argued that his religious beliefs would allow wife. They cherry-pick of cases, rather than the ultimate outcomes, to parts imply that somehow additional legislation is needed to protect these poor, women.defenseless Muslim go to the American Public Policy Alliance’s website for this bill, this case this bill, Alliance’s website for American Public Policy go to the is touted as one of the reasons why we need this law, to protect women—to protect women’s in in that case, Because Lebanon, rights. a couple met they were married there United States. Things and the wife came to the thewent sour, and Islamic argued that the husband marriage contract meant payment, $5,000 deferred mahr, or bridal to that the wife was only entitled as her entire divorce settlement. court-case-shows-need-for-american-laws-for-american-courts-legislation/. ties, and business contractsties, and resulted have to the ap- specific exceptions in of carve-outs A number of these two provisions. plication added have been carve outs, the to these According legislation. end of the model towards the not apply courts. It should to Native American law shouldnot apply model liability partnerships, limited corporations, So all business to corporations. from this law,etc., are now excluded which is the way the proponents of such laws have addressed that the business community the concerns has for ecclesiastical organizations excludes religious raised. It now also mat- and firing of clergyters such as the hiring membership issues. and church with U.S. to conflict to be interpreted law now says not it’s And the model narrowed down and narrowed it has been treaties. So it started out big, and attack on very targeted, but veiled, a is that is really left of it down until all website, is designedon the wording according to the religious law that, Sharia. However, as a practical it will include all to include matter only law, including Jewish law, in its grasp. kinds of religious Currentlyafter these laws have been passed. they have been passed in six states, I believe. However, is Kansas because in that a good example state, there were two divorce cases, one before the law was passed and one after the law was passed, which provide a good contrast. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 21 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 21 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 22 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 is basi- eruv . An 29 29 eruv ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). ] : As a religion journalist, I have written a fair amount written a fair amount have : As a religion journalist, I THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( REEDMAN F OUNDTABLE AM Laughter and applause P02 - R If you want to push a baby carriage, carry shawl in its bag, your prayer After the legislation passed in Kansas there was another divorce case was Kansas there in passed the legislation After divorce another Ultimately, these laws are really distorting a system that was working [ S or carry a bag of crackers or you cheerios for your are cannot if child—you fully observant unless you are inside your house or symbolically the inside extension of your house, which is the purpose of an about some of the issues, about some particularlywhat Wajahat addressed, and so I do we will be able to include some of this not want to be redundant, although Q&A. So rather during the purpose here is to provide a contrast, whichmy is to look at how issues of Jewish religious law played the public out in sector, which I think really provides a and showssignificant difference how Theythese issues are sometimes to those who are involved in them. painful what Wajahat andstand in real contra-distinction to Lee Ann have de- religious laws—which are actually stalk- scribed—disputes about Muslim ing horses or Trojan horses for Islamophobia. 2015] 2015] cally a piece of thin wire, line or very like fishing something gener- small, to the naked eye,allyvisible wire that will be strung tree to tree or only to light bulb over a certain light bulb agreed upon area. In part of the Mus- string up to you not have did world, where walled cities were the norm, lim this was wire because the wall served ritualistically the same purpose. So involving the Soleimanis. The Soleimanis were The Soleimanis the Soleimanis. in Iran. married, I believe, involving It was a abuse. short were and there marriage And of domestic allegations the the court to enforce in this case, asked the wife, Andmarriage contract. because thiswe have in part cannot do that, we said, “Oh no, the court Lawnot think that now and we do Courts’ law for American ‘American be allowed.” get the deferred not So the wife, as a result, did that would mahr agreed would contract, which in that case on in the marriage have cheated out of what this case, the wife was basically been $677,000. In right otherwise, with the explicitlyjudge her legal would have been refer- the exact opposite. protect her. It did this law did not law. So ring to this So the laws fine to begin with. are unnecessary; the courts already have the tools to deal and I would saywith them, that these laws are basically a red Muslims, but saying we serving to demonize are doing is herring. All they that Mus- are not against Muslims, This implies we are just against Sharia. to Sha- related do anything actually so long as theydo not . . . lims are fine a bad Muslim” paradox. is good Muslim ria. This is what I call “the only 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 22 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 22 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 22 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D is theologically correct. But largely it is DOCX ). in all of North America. It has been primarilyNorth America. It in all of eruv CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW eruvim WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( OUNDTABLE . Moreover, I will just add that there are some just add that there . Moreover, I will who ultra-Orthodox P02 - R The other significant difference is that the opposition has generally is that the opposition difference The other significant In any case, in some of these approval for anefforts to get municipal , there has been controversy. are three in the U.S. that I want to There eruv still do not believe that thestill do not believe in the past decade where in the past Jewish confident Orthodox there has been a more that Canada, and Western Europe—when in the United States, population of being in fear not living enough, secure enough, confident felt population attacked, where theythe local were to municipality to avoid going having and say, “May around border we put up this symbolic our community?” not only because, And it is very Ortho- is it vital for individual important you’reor even if dox, Jew as well, in building a community, a conservative are not going to have an effective in creating communityyou institutions, life, an effectivecommunal cannot carry synagoguelife, if people within the 30 30 of andmodernityand particularly American the North of the problem sort It also become the has idiom. West European way Orthodox Jewish of an some of take concerns andits ritual enough to feeling confident population the discussion needs into public policy.of Because think to the 1920s, I up onlythere were three eruv One in Palo Beach, New Alto, California; one in West point out. Hampton York; and one in Tenafly, New Jersey. these What instantly distinguishes kinds of battles from what you the have heard from other speakers is that There is on this issue. outside demagoguery there has been no organized to a nerve center. nothing equivalent fromcome others Jews. These have been Jew versus Jew controversies. What has been fascinating is looking at the non-Jews in these communities let us guys it out and “Will you scratching their heads and asking, figure know what we are really do?”—because, mainly, do not supposed to they are controversies These reallywant to look anti-Semitic. arenas in which the struggle in which the observant and less-observant Jew plays out. It is I cite are communities whosenot accidental in that all three examples Jew- affluent, more observant. The more ish population skews towards less tend to parts of the Jewish community, outwardly mobile more prosperous, or conservative movement. reform the be un-affiliated or affiliated with we can generalize, tend to stayOrthodox Jews, city tend neighborhoods, in to stay near city which theycan walk to, institutions and tend to be poorer last several decades,partly because of family size. It has only been in the you have in which with the advent of the modern Orthodox movement, professions—becoming lawyers,Orthodox Jews going into doctors, and accepted as an Orthodox norm. accepted as an Orthodox norm. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 22 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 22 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 23 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 —by the mohel controversies is, “I 31 31 eruv ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE , which was later overturned by to go up you are de facto creat- D OT N eruv O eruv (D there There have been Jews. have been DOCX ). eruv are the contemporary equivalent of the restric- eruv THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( . Now, we know as Jews and Muslims [the tradition] to tradition] [the . Now, we know as Jews and Muslims OUNDTABLE P02 - R And in fact, I sometimes say brought by that these battles less ob- Let me quickly go through the other examples. AnotherLet quickly controversygo through the other examples. me Thus, the language that attaches itself to these itself to these language that attaches Thus, the the judiciary, was a unanimous vote, butthe judiciary, was a unanimous two of the counselmembers were Jew- to the were completely looking Jewish. And the non-Jewish members ish members for the cue. So different not be this could than more what has controversies. The effect of the happened with these devious anti-Sharia way are felt by these an in the sense they feel Orthodox Jews is similar to unlivable. make the community effort is being made servant Jews over the do not want to be coerced.”do not want of fear that And, a sense that arestores owned bythe Sab- Jews into closing on are not observant will be pressured who stu- that have systems bath; that public school thrived with a lot of Jewish lot of Jewish taxpayersdents and with a to pay willing school public high in and send their kids to daytaxes will Jews move Orthodox as suffer more the enlightened self-interest of schools and, without having kids at public as readilyschool, will not vote is the school tax referenda. I think that for vitriol, the this but that alone does not explain piece of one legitimate of the major at Palo Alto, some So as you look things. which is about other Joel Beinin, of Stan- an actual notable Jewish Scholar, opponents include who we Zimmerman, Mitchell attorney, the leading ford University and again, some Hampton, was a “member of the tribe.” In West may surmise of the leading opponents of the three different federal lawsuits; one of those was brought by a group called by a group was brought of those three different federal lawsuits; one “Jewish of West Hampton People for the Betterment Beach.” In Tenafly, the the initial vote to refuse to put up Jews. ing a restrictive covenant against Orthodox specificallythat has flared up in New York over a procedure called is metzitzah b’peh tive covenant with which non-Jews used to keep Jews out of the tive covenant with which non-Jews If youneighborhood. do not want the circumcise a newborn male. In certain very fervently Orthodox circles, there is also the belief that religious law requires some of the blood from penisthe after the circumcisionmale to be extracted by the man that has done the circumcision. And this has led to anywherea from York dyingcases of infants in New havingtotal of twelve or fourteen from 2015] 2015] to desire same the developing areas—and non-Jewish in professors a have city yard,nice into move of the and to to have a bigger house, move to out over the communal conflict into then them which brings these suburbs, Jews them. who preceded with non-Orthodox norms 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 23 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 23 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 23 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( OUNDTABLE P02 - R And then the last example, which is the one that bears And then the last example, which is maybe a bit of the things that reallyagainst it in these I think one of helped fight back parallel to what we talked about earlier, were the efforts in California, one parallel to what we talked about earlier, in Santa Monica and one in San Francisco, to pass laws that would have outlawed circumcision altogether. And these are largely driven, although are largely Jewish people—I think they prominent some they have included chil- application of misguided a somewhat say driven by both, I would than dren’smore rights—but that, by a very ascendant atheists movement in the public square as being religion in this country, which sees any role of has become and that itselfwilling to assert more much anathema movement in ways as this. And in San Francisco, they such actually had a circumci- Santa In but a judge later struck it. 2011 ballot, November sion ban on the And the Monica, they never got enough signatures. issue for Cali- whole fornia ultimately settled when the state legislature was passed a law that and banning the practice of circumcision, would bar municipalities from you in which is the only example But I think here Jerrysigned that. Brown religious practice—to make it atavistichad an attempt to demonize or to up a act to children, and to drum this atavistic superstitious cruel portray basis. on that groundswell of public opinion cases, aside from the fact that it created an instant alliance of Jews and just to pillory be used Muslims, so which immediatelycould not it meant 32 32 I have herpes. contracted estimateseen one of fifteen a yearin has not that been ratified by the New DepartmentYork of Health.in any But case, it which a significanthas been already health problem, public makes it very from these different recognize international or refusal to anti-Sharia efforts And whatsoever. public health application which have no law efforts, so, in CityNew York was there an extensive public policy about what the debate what I And ultimately, be. ought to health response response and public was that the N.Y. City Department diplomatic solution though was a very families to sign a of Health requires basicallywaiver, the acknowledging procedure and saying,do it anyways”—so anrisks of this “We want to have very case tomade a you could easily consent. I think outlaw informed way the new- consent and it entirely the newborn has no giving of because is born is the one who of at risk. A small faction the Orthodox Jewish total Jewish communi- faction of the it world, which makes an even smaller ty New York, in all, they to court to oppose this. First of went in court. lost Jews but also by non-Orthodox only not were opposed on this But also they byJews Halakha whose religious leaders and whose decisors of Orthodox have said that there is not a textual basis, there is not a basis in rabbinic law different. procedure—so again very for doing this 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 23 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 23 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 24 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 33 33 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). : So, a lot of the rhetoric aimed against Muslims : That is a good question. One reason, maybe, that that One reason, maybe, : That is a good question. THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( AMBACH B REEDMAN NN F OUNDTABLE A EE AM P02 - R S L bigotry did not attach itself to Jews in the same way that it did to Catholics, is that the bigotry against Jews—first of all I am a believer in American as far as theexceptionalism worst mo- Jewish experience, and even at the ments here there has been nothing for Jews parallel to what they experi- enced in virtuallycountries in Europe. So even during the Henry all the pretty it is covenants, the Ford and Lindbergh eras, even during restrictive But one reason we were not singled out as Catholics is thatnot comparable. because, inand also school system public part of the Jews were very much and the protocols of the anti-Semites spite of the fevered imaginations of as a non-hierarchal religion, as a religion that is Elders of Zion, Judaism not vulnera- a single head Jew in charge, was have and doesn’t multivalent ble to the same kind of misportrayal as American Catholicism was because, youif look back at, say,against Al Smith when used at the vicious rhetoric in 1928, which is the exact analoghe ran for president that Barack Obama . But it . . . has had to deal, with the exception that Obama isn’t Muslim was very about much and it was all about the Vatican running the country 2015] 2015] in favor arguments health public were strong there that is community, one of circumcision.was flar- very in fact at the And this controversytime that with its came out of Pediatrics American Academy ing, the recent most outweigh the health health benefits said that the circumcision and report on risks, particularly terms in of HIV diseases sexuallyand other transmitted acquired by a likelymale to be being more has notwho had a circumcision. not seen anythingAnd also, we have like this flare up anywhere else in the this in effort to transplant of organized been anycountry, nor has there kind after the wayissue popping up in state we have seen the anti-Sharia that that is the verystate after state. So the Jewish side contrast from instructive to, that we can aspire shows something that it I think of the tracks, and someday, Muslims for American as well, that which is dispute and discord of religious practice in the publicabout the application sphere can take preju- for something fronting else—without something place without being dice. Unfortunately, a long wayyou have heard, we are terms of the as in that. a away from long way idiom, Muslim American today really echoes stuff that was used against Catholics earlier in today reallythe cen- echoes tury and, not as but some, againstyou feel that the much Jews. How do you think what do and where it is now, point to the Jewish community got it will take Muslims to get there? 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 24 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 24 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 24 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE ] is as multivalent as Judaism. I is as as Judaism. multivalent ] D OT N O (D inaudible DOCX ). : Especially when you are seen as lying because as lying : Especiallyyou are seen when : is It interesting because there is no—except for CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW : Right, the [ : There is so much to unpack. But I mean the question to unpack. But I mean the question : There is so much WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( AMBACH AMBACH A B B , as Bambach and Freedman each other. Freedman talk over REEDMAN NN NN F A OUNDTABLE A AJAHAT EE EE AM P02 - R L W L S inaudible of being absorbed into Whiteness, and thus being “mainstream”, is a prob- for American Muslims, where two-thirdslem an immigrant come from think that Jews, and this is a complicated reality, also, if you learned the you learned the reality, if also, is a complicated this think that Jews, and studies, Jews became language of white white. Jews were, in the binary couple of genera- at least for the first ambiguous, view of race, American South.tions, particularlyAmerican Were they in the white? Were they that is where we have done well in over time, black? What were they? And public precedent in the we have become that is where more this country; life; that is where we have given aspects of our religious culture as well as reallyaspects of our to be part of the country. We have popular culture, by You know, literally it. loved it and in turn been embraced impregnated by those of interfaith has whitened us That has whitened us. That marriage. Justin the white studies scheme of things. like the Irish and Italians were archetype,whitened. And, using that white studies Muslims have not be- be it should not think do it. I not recommending white yet. And I am come anyone—Jews,required. For of Italians, or anyone else. But, as a fact life,American It is also—I think that there was that seems to be the case. never had to face being the militarynever a concerted effort—the Jews and national security of the United States. The enemies anti-Jewish discourse never took exactly and that is a very that role, hard negative to disprove. Ameri- on the wing of the gremlin you are not the that prove you How do can public? then turns the discussion over to Wajahat Ali]. then turns the of [ 34 34 partlyas aliens portrayed being Catholics they because a Catholic created But why for themselves. school system theyhave done that? Partlyas a one then, schools. So public in the against forced Protestinization bulwark was that prejudice kind of Jews were of the reasons subject to the same not is that there Another reason the same. not set up public institutions they did as the in the wayevil puppeteer to was not one point person you could you incarnate. you know, the fifth column Pope as being, the could point to certain brands of Shia Islam—there is nocertain brands of Shia that. hierarchy like 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 24 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 24 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 25 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 35 35 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ]. ELETE D OT N O (D laughter DOCX ). : And the largest group is African American. American. largest group is African : And the : We immigrant Muslim make parents cry at Colum- : Well, close, close. I mean trying close. I mean technical to, just for : Well, close, THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( AMBACH A B REEDMAN NN F OUNDTABLE A AJAHAT EE AM P02 - R S L W bia’s Journalism School graduation [ bia’s Journalism 2015] 2015] the and it is background, diverse most communityreligious in in America of racial make-up. terms purposes, it is like thirtypurposes, it is like percent African American, thirty percent South Asian, they say about twenty-five to thirty and percent Arab-American, question then assumes,know the then the great But you miscellaneous. are we happen in the twenty-first“What is going to a that now century us main- and make that shift the landscape Will country? minority/majority a bi-racial president?” And this which has now elected stream in a country, is a tension; this is a tension community. within the As far as the narrative a that in terms ofgood point made goes, I think you American Muslims, of the slaves were ships, one-third despite coming Columbus on the here have been So we theybrought over here against their will; were Muslim. Our narratives run deep in the of the country. here since the beginning soil.yet,American I would say And it’sthe American Muslim 2013, and stasis around national security.narratives are anchored in prejudicial the So versus is always the bad Muslim concept of the good Muslim colored by helping is one who is the good Muslim national security, in the sense that who is not one of guys,good and law enforcement, and/or one of the terrorists? as an And that’s it. Your entire utility, them—the American, as anchorsan American around what youMuslim, are doingnational to help us of the and robs and humiliating, security, which is very de-humanizing great achievements that especiallywe have to twen- in the last fifteen made we ty in in law, still lacking. And I are yearsmedia—which in academia, I alwaysthink—there is something our “tribe learn from tell people—to from another that Jewish-Americanmother”—is reallycommunities did has really their community that I think benefitted something and America Especially,when it cultural contributors. in the fact that they’ve become to comes media, especially when it comes to pop culture, especially when it to political life. There was and when it comes a fantas- to academia, comes It was a statistic that said in 2002, ninety2002. tic study came out in that percent of American Muslim professionals were part of—what I call the Theyholy trinity. were either doctors, engineers, or the catchall business [meaning businessmen or in business]. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 25 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 25 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 25 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D ]. But if you think about where we were But if you think ]. ’s study done about two years ago that . And actually, what is worse is that what is worse is . And actually, it was DOCX ). th Time inaudible CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW : Can I just add one thing? I think what makes this one thing? I think what : Can I just add : As far as the research goes . . . what they say that is . . . : As far as the research goes : And so, you: And so, learned that we have know it is something WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( LI A A ] folks after [ REEDMAN F OUNDTABLE AJAHAT AJAHAT AM P02 - R S W W inaudible from, and the last ten years . . . . Actually, there is you know, something . . . the last ten years and from, fell, a the two towers of tragedymoment You know, 9/11, about that. and forcescrisis, also we have communitiesthink And I to have introspection. proactive,emergence of these, seen the I would say Muslim progressive, learning from of the same in-roads, some grow up making communities know, not only—you That this is how, you communities. Jewish American Muslim you have a multi-hyphenated cut off your identity. You cannot just Mus- hand. People are like, “I’m your American cut off hand. You know, a there’s no conflict.” But, it is American, I’m this sense of—I think lim, belong to this yesterday—we that someone contract talked about implicit the Jews. we share narratives with belongs to us, and country country, this 36 36 two of the underlying root causes of Islamophobia, they say is the follow- say they causes of Islamophobia, underlying root two of the There was a ing: ignorance. said that sixty-two say they do not know a Muslim. percent of Americans because it is not malice. one is ignorance, and that is important So number do not have a Most of the studies show that Americans malignant heart The towards Muslims. Theymostly“I just do not know Muslims.” say, second part: they say what they about Muslims do learn and Islam they get from the media and media misperceptions, and specifically, sensationalized media reports. The American Sociological Review came out with a study in the major discourse about Islam said that the months ago that about three media, especially in the past ten years, has been shaped by many of the Indus- from the Islamophobia people that I have unfortunately mentioned on these anchors. And plugged media has kind of mainstream try. And the not the immediate aftermath concerted politicization as it was the as much by [ in the 2000 election when both parties were vying for Muslim voters. Newt in the 2000 election when both parties were vying for Muslim Gingrich, who maybe put a Muslim prayer changed totally, in the U.S. Capitol. When you saw Muslim American athletes; these could be heroes star athletes. So things were reallyworshipping growing up kids to today Jews and as fast as it happened for not heading in the direction, probably the tragedy is that it’s and been so reversed. direction, in that Catholics but especially tragic is that things were trending in the immigrant absorptionimmigrant especiallyin the tragic is that things were trending 11 right up to September model 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 25 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 25 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 26 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 ] saying article that they L.A. Times 37 37 eruv controversy, I wrote a controversy, OMMENTS C ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM speaking to Sam Freedman eruv ELETE D OT N O (D UESTIONS AND DOCX ). Q 1: I just wanted to pick up on that last kind of list , just a normal op-ed, I thought not much of it. And not much op-ed, I thought , just a normal UDIENCE A THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA EMBER WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( M L.A. Times OUNDTABLE UDIENCE P02 - R A And then what you kind of touched on at the end about the circumci- of touched on And then what you kind piece for the of factors and maybe push back Sam, on some of the things you just said. of the things on some back Sam, push of factors and maybe the recent ago amid Maybe like ten months 2015] 2015] spike of a recent caused that have trends as the also seen we have what is the 9/11 them, years, want to mention I just ten in the last Islamophobia ground-zero the 2010 Hussein Obama, Barack tragedy, of election the spike, a caused a recent controversy,mosque accordinghuge spike, which Poverty The Law Center. to the Southern anti-Sharia meme has also been is becom- country this are sayingpeople is that what also And globalized. ing a minority/majority country.these fac- This is huge, and also some of the also one, which is important a very one, and sixth the also and . . . tors anti-immigrant in anti-government, the exponential rise factor leading to the past five years,hate groups in over the past is the economic collapse, four to five years. That has made for a very if you cultural volatile, will, space, with the ignorance and the bymedia misperception exploited some why, that explains [ I think of the people. And what you were just saying, there has been this resurgence. they had received so many phone calls against they pro- had received so my many then I got a call later thatthen I got a week from somebody at the sion stuff, the way in which it is funded—largely,by a na- MGMbill.org, to push it tries legislation, that that has its own model tional organization if, I feel me wonder of it makes part on the federal and state levels. And like in part of that debate resistance to het- there is an LGBT component, of the anti- some of pushing of that, kind and, part ero-normativity circumcision other issues. which gets bound up in some And I guess here is what I really maybeam wondering: that some of those factors Wajahat we are going to have not just that it is us think that mentioned should make and where internal two different paradigms: a it is kind of Jewish paradigm where it’s and invidi- going to be national local, and an Islamic paradigm we about, but to think of a sad thing maybe we are, it is kind ous. But that are seeing the trend with that kind of Islamic the tide, as to howmodel wanted me to write a follow-up, kind of responding to critics. And I was to of responding kind to write a follow-up, wanted me was kind had written what I because I thought kind of taken aback by that everyof straightforward; it was like what And the case had ever said. pushback wasn’tIt just local [i.e. in Los Angeles]. was national pushback. national than local. is right, although I guess more So I think that 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 26 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 26 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 26 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). : Well other religions are I do think that Jews and CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW : Yeah I justdo not see what think that, again, I really WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( AMBACH B ] is given to the ex-wife.” That prosaic is such an ordinary, REEDMAN NN F OUNDTABLE A EE AM P02 - R L S inaudible 38 38 to tip and going maybe is States, minority the United treated in are groups to start we are going resistance and seeing Islamic not to just more more but Jewish initiatives, initiatives, waymaybe the even the Islam- in which Jewish law and now incorporating legislation is anti-Sharia the ophobia and that faces minority paradigm new the to be So that is going other things. me some- all to tell you love for And I would in the United States. religions thing really happy wrong. about why I am getting caught up in this anti-Sharia hysteria. I think Canada was hysteria. I think a perfect in this anti-Sharia getting caught up any- and nobody said problem with no had used arbitration Jews example. by there was talk about doing it thing. And then when Muslims, they just not know what the Jewish community So I do said, “Ok, nobody can do it.” and theyinteresting to see whether Canada], would be it are is doing [in But I see it primarilystill doing arbitrations. fueled byand fear of Islam as a whole, but I of this secular backlash against religion there is a little bit part of anything. is a huge that do not think you are describing as a resurgent anti-Semitism. I think, if there is a cutting I think, if you are describing as a resurgent anti-Semitism. asser- of a very vigorous, it is more edge, it is what Lee Ann just described, tive atheism that really language has not been part of the American public brings reli- if ever, that sees anythingway that in quite this for a long time, as objectionable.you know, as someone public square And, the gion into and had a religious civil and religious divorce, the whose been through both if someone would say, of course it would horrify me re-marriage, “How dare New York state law incorporate Freedman’s Sam that divorce decree the [ way of civil law acknowledging a parallel track of religious law. But if the it is driven byI against that, I do not think anti-Semitism. fight happens by In fact, in the religious sphere, period. think it is driven anti-religion, The of Vatican II [i.e. at the fiftieth anniversary we are looking know you shift in this year, Jewish- which is the paradigm Second Vatican Council] totally remade rela- The end of deicide Catholic relations in this country. at the level of elites, but also at the grass-roots level just tions between, not while I find Christian Scientism— between Jews and Catholics. And because of its expansionist view of the land of Israel and Palestine—very Vatican II cultural level, there’s on a more been a de facto problematic, experience for evangelical Christians in who I think in this country, many down-played, ways their supersessionist or millennialist up, or have given 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 26 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 26 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 27 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [a reality [a ] and even The Guardian 39 39 inaudible ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE All-American Muslim D OT N O (D DOCX ). , about two weeks ago, wrote these two pieces 1: I would actually love if you said a little bit said a little you if love would actually 1: I Salon : I want to actually talk about some goodactually news, only some about : I want to talk in THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA EMBER WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( M A OUNDTABLE AJAHAT UDIENCE P02 - R A W when I described my divorce [hypothetical, discussed above], as objection- discussed[hypothetical, divorce my when I described above], there. stop able. Well I will just more hear—I completely to I am about well, more wanted sorry, I just agree that like anti-religion. I’m looking more now and this is not anti-Semitic more that piece on bit up about a to follow of, just you, kind anyof just curious if we are headed. on where youhave something to say if the sense that, I do believe that it is, I mean Chris that it is, I Hedges de- the sense that,[journalist] I do believe in a as a new fundamentalism atheism militant rise of this scribed it as the been fol- years have you guys ago. And I do not know if book about four lowing conversations specifically, Greenwald in but Glenn and Nathan Lean in thatreally,kind of, resur- have been of atheism the henchmen calling out articles that went viral, specificallygent. And the Richard [were on] Daw- and the late Christopher Hitchens. And I think there is Harris, kins, Sam that is uniting religious com- atheism of militant about the rise something also that—this is why of shared values. And I think I wanted tomunities good news—this is unfortunatelysay the fact that this anti-Sharia some if other mothers,” years from “cousins united in the past two legislation has of whyyou will. I will give three that we I think quick examples are on a trend towards something I do hope that the Islamophobia good. Because year, is receding. In Florida last tide has reached its highest peak and the in large part, thanks to Jewish- was Sharia bill was introduced, and it communities andAmerican the rabbis of the communities who stood up with the Muslim-American communities that and leveraged their support, in Florida. As far as the cultural spaces go, about twelve to died the bill thirteen years pop-culture personality really went [out] ago, no influential, of their way to back Muslims. Now of the Florida Fami- I give the example ly Association’s petition against the show But there was a petition cancelled against show on TLC after one season]. 2015] 2015] ra- way see Jews and at Jews, as part of of looking continuum religious a Jews that And I think need to be replaced. as deviants who ther than and in some waysMuslims against each are pit in conflict this country, other in terrible.which is In some ways, they become allies parallelsand see among you it as, know, we are not see the Jews] lacking [i.e. So I do themselves. folk tryingwith religious us as Jews. to stigmatize be dealing We might with, again, very secular find any folk who would [ 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 27 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 27 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 27 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 sar- UFFINGTON Shariah: Shariah: , H [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW [report]. She did a press release for it. Allen West WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( OUNDTABLE And the other one is, they And the other one of the two burning towers, have a photo 21 Anti-Muslim Subway Posters Prompt NYPD to Increase Security in Stations ] but stood up for this—Megan McCain; hip-hop mogul, Russell but stood up for this—Megan hip-hop mogul, McCain; ] P02 - R I also think in the political space, some good news is that, even though that, even though is good news some space, the political I also think in (Sept. 25, 2012), http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/25/anti-muslim-subway-posters-nypd- OST increase-security_n_1912239.html. increase-security_n_1912239.html. 21. 21. P 40 40 a and originally store improvement home [the Lowe’s said petition that that to bigotry that was and fear. And cower should not the show] sponsor of blogger, signed by gayjoke, it was signed by, a this is not like and I mean Catholic of the Donahue William Schneider; Rabbi Mark Perez Hilton; [ of Muslims a friend and Civil Rights]—really Religious League [For casm space, to the activism Simmons; and it comes Susan Sarandon. And when of have you the audience] guys[to “Stop Islamization been following in New America” or five metro ads for the past four York and months, Geller and Robert Pam talking about? what I am D.C.? Everyone knows with out Spencer have come these very ads: “In the inflammatory war be- tween the civilized the savage, support the civilized and support man man, Israel.” and next to it they context, saying, take a chronic quote out of “Attack them Well, right next to those adswhere you in New find them.” very York, similar aesthetic ads, it is almost like a duplicative copy, were taken out proactively and Rabbis by for Human show that Rights to the Sojourners commu- and this is poisoning the in America, this should not be happening nal well. I am she narrowly won. But Allen West—and Michelle Bachmann won, [because] these peoplegiving these names work in concert with the people West called Frank industry—Allen in the Islamophobia that I mentioned Gaffney Michelle Bachmann supported the 2010, mentor, and his The Threat to America guys Illinois—you own elected official here, Joe Walsh from your lost, and what he did last year?remember to a [He] went city council meeting and they to kill here, neighbors are out “These Muslim said [paraphrasing], are seeing is a trend now, hopefully,you.” He lost. And, I think, what we towards some shared values. And I think, ironically, that the Sharia legisla- tion, as Lee Ann has said, really give should in its current manifestation, pause and concern to religious communities. seen And we have Muslims and Jewish groups come togetherhope that it in places like Florida. And I you a specific answer as to the rise of give is a trend. You know, I cannot see how very curious to is on the rise. And I am but it atheism, this militant concert. I hope I gave you an an- religious communities keep uniting in swer. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 27 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 27 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 28 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 41 41 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). 2: I was just going to make a point that I think just going to 2: I was make THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA EMBER WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( M OUNDTABLE UDIENCE P02 - R Anyway, second thing I want to point out is that the I do not want to I have testified in different terrorism cases. And the kind of evidence A 2015] 2015] lump this all lump on right-wing nuts. I the right-wing nuts are right-wingmean, case, the federal are despicable. Unfortunately,nuts, and they this gov- in is reallyernment 1996 legisla- opinion. You go back to taking a leap, in my you go and look at that If to terrorism. support material tion criminalizing statutes, there are provision, those criminal criminal actuallystatutes. two foreign terrorists, and the other is for One is criminalizing material support terrorists. And there im- is an support for domestic material criminalizing portant difference between the two statutes. For the criminalization of ma- is required, whereas purpose element foreign terrorists, no for terial support congres- then in the terrorists, there is a purpose element. And for domestic sional record, it says that, because, there is nothing redeemable about for- be something about know, there eign terrorists, whereas, might you intended you to prove something, so we have terrorists that have domestic statute, kind of this nebulous introduce to further violence. So when you which does not require any of any intent or proof to commit sort of intent violence in order to commit the crime,get this kind of infinite then you the right wing is using [paraphrasing chain of causation, which is what the to you’re contributing a hijab you’re wearing “Of course if right-wingers]: of inferences.” But that is exactly because we can look at this link terrorism uses. the reasoning the federal government the federal government uses to convict people to the kind of is very similar Sam really Sam his made in that, But I think closing remarks. really, the situa- to other different compared States is very in the United tion of Muslims back to— go you If security dimension. because of the national minorities did a someone story Murfreesboro on the And they controversy. mosque were interviewing otherwise very this sweet middle-class woman in goes and at the end she her objections to the Murfreesboro about mosque, in all of these plac- We are our enemies. of [paraphrasing] “It’s the religion so why here?” And I mosque are we going to put up a es fighting them, think that is a, you irrational, it is very know, however illogical or visceral. And, it is a very hard thing to—first I think to I think it is impossible mind. it would be very, very in the United States to ignore the Muslims silly for will be near future the States is fighting, and for fact that the United is the way countries. And that wars in it is go- Muslim fighting, numerous And I think that is going to unfortunately. lifetime for my ing to be, I think, rights in the United States. on Muslim impact have a dramatic 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 28 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 28 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 28 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW : Now, I just want to give an example of the national national of the example an to give want just : Now, I WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( A OUNDTABLE AJAHAT P02 - R Speaking about the Ground Zero mosque controversy, for those of you of for those controversy, Speaking about the Ground Zero mosque W security narrative and how our men securitywill unfortunately men narrative and how our be dealing with it. becomes the national becomes the local how upon touch to And I just want and whythe international, we should be so concerned. If you are concerned be concerned with Islamophobic about national security, should we why is that our enemy quick. The studies have shown messages? Just real call them one recruitment The number Al-Qaeda, Taliban. abroad, you can has worked is the use that they that one propaganda number tool, and the Now I traveled around Muslimwar with Islam.” is at following: “The West are very they you, communities telling for the past several years and I am acutely perceptive as to what has been landscape—I the U.S. happening in Unitedpolitics. In the mean, they acutely they U.S. follow are aware; States, if you is at war with the hear the language, the language is, “Islam want to give you I just twoWest.” Extremism seems to beget extremism. Breivik, the Norwegian killer Anders not mind. do if you quick examples detailed exactly where he why 1500 page manifesto a behind in 2011, left he killed seventy-seven people, children. He said that he mostly wanted to being very lenient towards “Eurabia” and for for becoming punish Europe Islamization.and specifically In his 1500 page multiculturalism, towards manifesto, he cites every I single mentioned in the Islamophobia member expert, reviewed the docu- the counter-terrorism network. Mark Sageman, network for Islamophobia the people of the ment and said we cannot blame infrastructure. The rheto- from the same Breivik emerges but causing this, ric is not cost-free. Pastor Terrywho remember, dude with the handle bar Jones, the mustache, he has a constituency Sam, like, three [people]. looks like Yosemite of, figure. He said [paraphrasing], an international you “If becoming And he’s burn the Quran.” So, going to I’m Zero the Ground mosque do not move he actually in April 2011, what people forget sometimes is that went ahead and burned copies of the Quran. The Afghan Taliban was waiting for that a siege on a U.N. they laid that, two weeks after he did to happen. About civilians. When asked for justification, nearly killing two-dozen compound, Taliban said [paraphrasing]: “The West the Afghan is at war with Islam. Quran.” Pastor Jones burned the 42 42 sorry The rot this. to say So, I am nuts use. these right-wing that reasoning head, as they the began from say. Turkish saying You know, the that the to rot from the fish begin down. And it is spread head. And unfortunately, teacher in this regard. been the greatest government has the federal 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 28 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 28 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 29 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 43 43 ], that that many], people ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). 3: I just want to make especiallyan observation, speaking to Audience Member 2 THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA EMBER WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( M article that came out last year. But Robert Spencer’s information OUNDTABLE UDIENCE P02 - R A And I just want to touch on the national security component, and I and security the national on to touch I just want And component, share the same—I mean I do not know if it is the head. There is difference There is difference is the head. if it same—I share the not know mean I do government. about the federal in agreement has the federal government But experts network as used it comes to when in the Islamophobia people many and specifically training law to FBI counter- it comes when enforcement, after material was purged teaching The Islamophobic officials. terrorism The Wired used to train FBI recruits, Mohammad about Islam and Prophet was being terrorists. is a com- So there Muslim potential interrogate who would then at the state, local, andponent of law enforcement, levels, that I federal last example the give hand. I will in hand think have unfortunately worked as the A.P. winner fromPulitzer have all followed it, 2011. You guys where the NYPD widespread surveillance[did] of Muslim communities, schools, talking about I am than that theyfor no other reason are Muslim. where they theywhere like Columbia, eat, even at universities infiltrated Studentthe MSA [Muslim Association] and went on a kayaking trip, and the reports were, “They not making this talked about praying a lot.” I am a day. They’re times five four to “Theywant to pray up, [paraphrasing] very And a year religious.” after this Pulitzer report, the groundbreaking that NYPD had tobecause of investing admit all of this time, this money, wantednothing. I just theyand these resources in counter-terrorism, found much. talking so for to comment on that. Sorry to Wajahat, that I do not think it is a coincidence the anti-Sharia legislation it is a coincidence to Wajahat, that I do not think of court cases. Because Iwaysin some that court cases think use examples andhave a certain have a certain ability to legitimatize go viral in ability to different of this is in a slightly example political life. A great American fifteen years debate, I mean, ago nobody reform at the tort field. If you look knewin America what the law of torts was. No one ever heard of it. had debate. voters And view about the tort reform And most now have some is the system tort one thing everyone knows about the McDonald’s coffee case. People what“Oh the ask I teach now. I say “Torts.” They say, me coffee case.”McDonald’s So, just as in the cases that you are describing, where the case Or the famous the McDonald coffee case is mis-described. was also a which for being psychic, damages got compensation woman case that either never happened or was quickly reversed on appeal. Those stories were ofleveraged by the business communityand the chambers commerce to create a narrative that was then used to leverage legislation in 2015] 2015] think you are right [ you think 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 29 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 29 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 29 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW : Well, being a journalist and a journalism professor, I : Well, being a journalist and a journalism : I think that is a really: I think that is a I think the astute observation. WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( A REEDMAN F OUNDTABLE AJAHAT AM P02 - R W S 44 44 and houses state I similar country.around the extremely pattern is And the is a few a sense. I pervasive in even would say Islamophobia mean, more youwhich of it, the mechanics movement. But years tort reform the behind be clearly interested in, can seem to be is of the things that traced. And one to narrative, you have change the to order in is, that this about so difficult complexityintroduce what the into was reallycase the about or what were, or whygrounds of the decision was self-corrected that this by the judicial system actually internally. do not And those complications make for particularly successful narratives in political life. American And so the ability to to leverage outrageous cases me seems tool in the as a stock in the of political to this United States that also lead movements building for legislation. sort of widespread move fact that you is key.narratives fact that counter-narrative—we talk about And the years when it comes toten where in the past five to are in this space now lawyers or people in the pop-cultural space: “How or activists or journalists or alternative narratives?” And the do we create either counter-narratives a lot of industry for will give credit to the Islamophobia one thing—I you sounds strange—is creating things, which to that they are verygood at narratives. Lee these Ann talksemotional about it—it is almost absurd, but compel- due to this very nullified of the legislation becomes the absurdity they run with it. They root. And an emotional taps into narrative that ling that constituency and for these memes both their quite well for run with it seems sometimes national to international. And it local to will go from that sophistication and facts some-know, inject want to, you who those of us includes narrative to the people that a compelling times are unable to make the complexity but also taps into the emotion. And, to be honest—we have to three yearsbeen talking about this the last two behind closed doors— often times people are in a space of, “Ok, let’s hit them with facts. Let’s hit the public with facts.” Sometimes, as you know, the public could care less 1] about facts. saying,was “Ah, you Member As Muhammad [Audience those guys. Theyyou’re like You are not seem nice, but a good Muslim. And that narrative is like seeped in the heads. So I kill us.” are trying to a very and we are still you made in that space now of good point, think crafting narratives. can that What was make a saying?couple of observations. you are not If message. do is, sort of refine your need to then all you be accurate trying to 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 29 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 29 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 30 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 45 45 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( OUNDTABLE P02 - R Another point that I would make that Another point that goes to some of what Wajahat reallyThen the last thing is something that me when I talk saddens said is that there are revolution in kinds of advantages to the digital all me- really have are huge disadvantages dia, but there two of them too. And play into come climate. in the current Number the line between pro- one: fessional and or between amateur, has alla real journalist and an ideologue consumers. news but vanished for most get Tweets, when When people when theythey web, all too few of them go on the curated site are reading a in the American jour- be non-partisan an effort,that at least makes to either other in the on one side or the nalist tradition, or to be responsibly partisan Between that and Western European tradition. between just random more advocacy,no pre-tense of verification at all. So it is very or hard to discern, of the public, what theyfor much its providence is, how are getting—what a Terry thing is that it super-empowers believable it is. And then the second Islamophobia—the than homophobia about Jones. Or—this is more be what Westboro Baptist Church. That youthey can call a “jackleg preacher,” a preacher who is kind of a fraud. And if you can do something the news, then it is instantly picked up on outrageous enough, to get going so to echo around the world. And, it is difficult at times. I wish that journal- Jones, ists would just agree to boycott Terry Westboro Baptist and boycott is that even if we did, they through can still communicate but the problem we saw with thatFacebook and through YouTube, as crazy, bigoted ver- L.A. Put it out there made. Coptic Christian from that the sion of the movie you get that stuff backanywaysit becomes its own reality. So how do and not have an answer. do in the box? I As I a big pro football fan. am the counter-narratives. I am about one of Prudential commercial—even I watching all see this the games, though I But theyusually sound off. put the guy’s name up and it was “Mu- have the jahid Abdul Rashid.” And guy then I say, in a commer- a Muslim “Wow, the put decided to cial selling insurance. How great is that?” So I actually and heard the game text, which was verysound on during the football a grandfather, and youwonderful. It is him talking about being see him 2015] 2015] phrase—thejust in that And if it was not know I do Zero Ground a mosque. youBut by that the phrase, lucky [it]. making a focus group did guess or if you that accurately, to do was, in covering need first thing know, the was back and say,try walk it “Well it’s actually to not Zero, and it’s not Ground column, in my wrote about as I for that matter, actually And a mosque.” So know. towers, youprayer been a Muslim there had in the twin room simplis- some against win the battle to complexity that hard for what? It is tic label. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 30 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 30 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 30 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). 4: I would like to make little bit4: I would like to of an observa- make ]. And I thought this was the And I thought ]. to an sad post-script CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW EMBER : I think what I would like to do at this point is, we are is, we are point to do at this like what I would : I think WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( laughter is going to point out that we had a Muslim in that com- a Muslim we had out that is going to point M OUNDTABLE ODERATOR UDIENCE P02 - R M A admirable piece of popular culture, which is that you in that culture, which is that do something piece of popular admirable yourself you want to distance and then tolerance, to bowl for its own way is from it. And that was as depressing as that is out of the “Gellerism” some are like “Uh oh, the there is a positive thing, people there; that even when New York Times mercial. for be bad Yeah, that business. Let’smight hold that at arm’s length.” 46 46 This so admirable. is “This I thought, So his grandkids. with fishing going ordinary healthyis such a an being used to sell identifiable Muslim sign: an column my I decided to do or annuities.” So life insurance product like together. They it the ad agency were put of that and got ahold about it, Abdul of Mujahid psyched,it, justifiably.know, proud of you Got ahold Rashid. He was reallyhappy to did not want about it. But Prudential to talk talk at all. Thenwant to You know, first theyown their good deed. did not “with or without when it became apparent column that we were doing the they statements released these preposterous ‘em,” that they had no idea that he was Muslim [ tion, and I also have a question in relation to the anti-Sharia laws that the anti-Sharia relation to obvi- have a question in tion, and I also arbitration in the United States, ously affect Islamic because I have done a little work in this area as well. My sense is that, and this goes back to what yesterday,Michael Helfand spoke about a lot of this—at least in the non- legal community—a political and legal community, the in the popular, in of viewing Islamic law,a misperception lot of this seems to have to do with tribunals and the like, in religious Sharia, Islamic courts and arbitration is the caseways, think this not I do And in many rather than legal terms. with Jews anymore. And part of the reason I think that is so is because there have beenone of the key developed over time—and I think that is that itthings in this entire discussion, is for a par- just takes a lot of time ticular community to become another presence in American life—but over the various organizations: Orthodox time, Orthodox Jews have developed Union, Beth Israel, the Yeshiva of America, Rabbinical Council Universi- and in gen- ty—various role in blogging play institutions that major a very eral political life. People looking for a quote or a comment can get one not really running out of time but . . . let us take questions in a little bit of a a little bit of in a us take questions let . . . but of time out not really running can guysyou take notes to make sure panelists] bunch. So if you write [the three at a time. was them I will take [what asked]. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 30 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 30 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 31 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 47 47 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). 5: Two very brief points and a question. You a question. points and Two verybrief 5: THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA EMBER WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( M OUNDTABLE UDIENCE P02 - R A 2015] 2015] the President theyone from can get Union; of the Orthodox the head from University.of Yeshiva is, That represents what Judaism something—that and far accessible under- more it far more law is—and makes what Jewish to thestandable wired society,the legal/political in and particularly those communitynuanced, sophisti- these things in a to think of who are willing cated way. is any whether there And I wonder com- sense in the Muslim like of North America, Council like the Fiqh organizations in news munity, and other organiza- AMJA Jurists of Muslim [Assembly of America], there are— are or how widespread how many there tions—I do not know gradually more to associations kind of become and imams, of mosques communi- political the interaction, the public with sophisticated in dealing getting and kind of communities the journalistic ty, the legal communities, especiallythe message that, a lot of what we are with respect to Sharia, nu- And I think there are places to inject is law, not religion. dealing with the ances to the to it. And again, where people are receptive discussion organization really is that there is no hierarchal religion, problem for the statements— semi-authoritative make but if there are such institutions to it entails law—about Sharia where persuasive statements about the Islamic things to begin to shift to significant do something that might how it works, what is reallyan honest understanding of going on. mentioned the fear in your talk. The idea is a fear concern . . . which is that which . . . is a fear concern talk. The idea mentioned the fear in your those who on track. You mentioned your life is your faith if you can hide wanted to add that an- I just of Islamophobia. this empire in are involved playother dimension is how these things out in the Muslim community. That when theythat it is actually Jewishit creates this perception see that, of Jewish conspiracy, kind community,or some they that are trying to de- You know, since the this law. Muslim communitymonize does not under- stand very various shades of opinion, their well the Jewish community’s degree in forces impe- to the internal diversity,add this dimension so they community.rious that exist in the Muslim this war Myquestion is: Is particularly some in which, policy foreign against Sharia part of a global Republican lawmakers and politicians see that in post-Arab Spring, there partand Sharia is a very political important are rising Muslim movements elsewhere. So theyof their agenda, like the and Muslim Brotherhood see that America is at war and they want to of Islam with this interpretation do need to create a very strong, negative secularize these societies. So, they opinion of Sharia so that these conflicts that they should be justified, are 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 31 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 31 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 31 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ], and I think that the compar- and ], ] . . . . ] And to supplement your ELETE D OT ESPONSE N R O (D inaudible DOCX ANEL ). P cuts herself off 7: Well I consider it supplementary to that be- to that I consider it supplementary 7: Well :I will start [Audienceand address Schlomo 6: I just wanted to respond to something, a cou- to respond to something, wanted 6: I just CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW EMBER EMBER WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH AMBACH ( M M B NN A OUNDTABLE UDIENCE UDIENCE EE P02 - R A A L ple of comments that were made earlier about an alleged rise in atheistic atheistic rise in about an alleged earlier that were ple of comments made this has something and that radicalism, this issue. To to do with this isme not affiliated with any thought. Those of us who are quite an astounding influence feeling: that religious religion actuallyexacted the opposite have There is no country. is increasing in this public life. place for an atheist in sure that none of atheist, and I’m to being an admit No politician would you’re you know, this whole group that these people organization, in the self-identify So I do as atheist. that sure none of them I’m talking about, I mean, I just feel is not know where this quite surprised andcoming from. in involved radical atheists are at all some evidence that the I’d like to have you’re about. any talking things that of these 48 48 of justification a moral and it gives ideology of evil a kind against finding domestic or is it just a Is that possible these conflicts. thing? cause I also want to question point [ point, [surveys show] that America is one of the most religious countries of countries of religious most is one of the that America show] [surveys point, the Western liberal democracies compared to Europe. ison that I raise, Europe, is sort of instructive on that. And I am thinking of thinking And I am on that. ison that I raise, Europe, is sort of instructive case in Germanythe circumcision where Germanyone of the supposedly is atheistic, anti-religious countries in Europe. And so, there that seems most now to be warranted that there is a growing force behind that and Islam And the argument—one to represent “religion,” than Judaism. comes more of the arguments that I have read on intelligent most the whole debate on to illegalize circumcision—wasthe attempt that if the Muslims had been have declared it illegal in a would circumcised, they who ones the only second, but because the Jews also circumcise, Germany had a PR problem Therefore, [ [with the Jews]. Member 4]. I would argue it is the opposite. It is not that you It is not that see Islamic it is the opposite. I would argue 4]. Member popular opinion sees Islamic law as religious rather than legal, but law only as legal and not as religious. If you ask people about Jewishlaw—well you are all that, and those you have things like have kosher, you have prayer, religious. But if you ask about Sharia, it is—well theyand they amputate, ABA working on this brother one time stone. When I was talking to my 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 31 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 31 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 32 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 49 49 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). : Let me just throw in one thing on that, which I was : Let one thing on me just throw in THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( REEDMAN F OUNDTABLE AM P02 - R S going to bring up and which I am veryalert to as a journalist. There is this I am going to bring up and which Islamic Rela- CAIR (the constant effort to smear Council on American tions), ISNA Society(Islamic MPACAmerica), (Muslim of North Public Student Associations—anyAffairs Council), and Muslim groups— of these places towhich I found as a journalist responsible go for comment and or fronts for Theyexplanation. are perceived as being fronts for terrorism are subject that they not exist. It is do groups Hamas. So it is not that these front into being them just erode their credibility, but flip not to an effort to, that the RCA or the equivalent Jewishorganizations for worldwide terror that is can think of thing I only not. The are groups certainly generally somewhat similar is that around Jewish groups there is certain discourse view, a euphe- or Likudnik as, in least in my that uses terms like neocon a close parallel. But entire groups— be for “Jew” period. That would mism the American-Jewish community,ADL—are not the called into question the way CAIR, ISNA, and other groups are. These are sort of the main- one thing I add—I think is where, we stream organizational voices. And a main- wing; there is the far right earlier—isjust that it is not it pointed to the elephant in the room here in that part of too. I think stream element part—what we as Jews and Muslims need to work out with each other—is that, I think one of the reasons for the portrayal of those groups in that way is that it is our back-handed screwed up way of acknowledging that we and Palestine. Instead of just always,not on Israel disagree often, though 2015] 2015] law, he immediately not want we do well said, “Oh, Islamic about project in Geor- “I am I said, people.” kill they law in I mean, Islamic country. this that gia; we kill people to see So I think getting people here too.” more not necessarilySharia is these criminal laws; I have not whoa Muslim met they do apply these criminalwants to Even when in their country. laws contract issues—some for domestic tribunals, it is want Sharia [is- more Muslim need tribunals; and divorce definitively. Women marriage, sues], mar- “limping we call of what to get out oftentimes need tribunals women riages” in of “chained women” which is basically the equivalent Judaism. the pub- So tribunals actually perception is lost on But that help women. lic—it is not I think there are Muslim organizationsseen. that are trying to educate the and are tryingpublic and the to reach out. You have ISNA specificallyhave had campaigns Council that Muslim Public Affairs against anti-Sharia generally, legislation, and more Sharia describing what actually a big you so it has not made against the tide, are swimming is. But impact. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 32 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 32 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 32 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ] well, that is all true though. well, that is all true though. ] ). CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW Jokingly : [ : I’m going to try to consolidate actually all four ques- four consolidate actually all to going to try : I’m WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( A REEDMAN F OUNDTABLE AJAHAT AM P02 - R S W tions, if it is great point— of that possible, succinctly. going off But just still say organizations, I would when it comes to Muslim of them that many are like newbies, if you was will, and 9/11 a baptism by fire, if I use may was Amer- The placed upon the and microscope spotlight that [expression]. did not have ican-Muslim communities and many of them and institutions, deep networks, deep sophistication, in these deep roots, deep strategies, effectively.responding Forget about alternative narratives—counter- narratives. It if I did illuminate, may, of the incompetence some thatexists as a result of being relatively, I think, new in these fields, which is critical because it is self-reflection of the fact invest wisely we did not in some we are it showed. But, I mean, certain professions. And institutions and what he [Freedman] was also, better. And saying, is a verygetting there defini- network. Speaking about the deliberate effort by the Islamophobia any exclusion—to paint about marginalization, tion of Islamophobia: it is individual, or politician, as Muslim organization, mainstream being a of, member now they say, the radical Anyone who Muslim brotherhood. years that? Several gets guys remember Keith Ellison—you mainstream. you’re a pat- to me “Sir, prove openly said, News on Fox ago, Glenn Beck So the fact that anyone voice, even gets a riotic American.” mainstream have been hit as a I cultural contributors. I mean, man who hates America; they call me Hamas, Hezbollah, I and The Radical Muslim Brotherhood. like everything. am 50 50 saying American as our relations that are Muslims and American Jews over that civil disagreement vigorous but at times, to include, have going to talk that we do not instead, issue, while others, many working around these groups “Well because we sort of say, but through, are sympathetic to they nationalism, cause and the Palestinian be fronts for Palestinian must Hamas. They that is just for terror.” And be fronts must a twisted way of a out. We need being played legitimate disagreement to find healthier ways we of saying,are reform; come together on immigration “We’re going to to come other social justice issues; we are going together on going to come you still going know what, we are freedom issues. But together on religious to disagree the timea lot of on Israel and Palestine, so let’s just say we on.” out what things we can work together disagree and figure 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 32 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 32 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 33 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 51 51 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). : Yeah, it is : Yeah, themselves, Muslims also with And all true. THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( LI A OUNDTABLE AJAHAT P02 - R But what we have seen in past three years the is also this multi- W . So think about getting across a consistent message that represents our that represents a consistent message getting across about . So think 2015] 2015] cultural coalition of—I think—this diverse cultural coalition of—I think—this as front American well. And I Muslims to say for American have Jew- that we think it is very important partners. Andish-American narra- that is why I think—speaking about the by a narrative that is crafted to have two things: tives—it is important but also the diverse communities, also of that narrative have to messengers partners. It is verywhich is why we have seen a lot of be non-Muslim key, not just a this is “Oh, say, space, because people headwaymainstream in issue. This is an American issue about pluralism.” Muslim I mean, I want to go back to the point where we are the most diverse reli- diverse we are the where I to the point back most I to go want mean, decide even what day to celebrate cannot We gious community in America. Eid community.commu- would say,Muslims Sunni “Well, what community? or Salafi or Deobandi Sunnis? Barelvi Sunnis, community? nity? Shiite like it feels sometimes and so forth and so forth. So, Desi?” And so forth But, I think what we a headless chicken. are like we are running around finding out—especially realize there because people space both is a shared security that we in America national and this is affecting are broadly—is especiallygetting a lot of help in the last three years, especially ironically seen controversy. Zero from the 2010 Ground mosque in the last two I have years, are comingto three a lot of people to Muslim-American organiza- tions, and Muslims-American are going to both secular and organizations [The Muslims-Americanhelp. asking for religious organizations organiza- you And it.” teach us how “You guys did tions are asking] have a model, comes to Jewish conspiracy,we have been seeing that. When it unfortu- is always contami- nately, kind of Israel. And this the room the elephant in shared spaces and shared nates even messages. And like I what should be communities, youaround Muslim know, have said, when you have traveled and they report players at those said, in the Islamophobia people looked Daniel Pipes. Is this a “Hey,Geller, David Horowitz, Gaffney, Frank Pam Jewish conspiracy?”because And I always,back against that, alwayspush if you did do not give imputed intentions to why read the report, we people what they did. And it is not fair to say because if that it is just “the Jews,” last ten to twelve years, people behind the you look at the it is not just cer- tain Jewish-American organizations. It is also what I call the Evangelical Pat Robertson.Christians—okay, certain Evangelical Christians—[like] Act for Bridget Gabriel of Also, the Maronite Christians—like America Muslimsand Robert Spencer—and also some like Zuhdi Jasser. So it is like front. Islamophobia of the willing on the coalition this multi-cultural 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 33 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 33 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 33 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW : You know, something that you just touched on re- touched you just that something : You know, WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( attacks, and the valor of Muslim American soldiers and first Muslim attacks, and the valor of th REEDMAN F OUNDTABLE , it was constructed to have a unified fighting force in World War to have a unified fighting , it was constructed AM P02 - R Another way in which the war contributed and enabled the inclusion war contributed and enabled Another way in which the The other thing that I think will be needed is leadership. In a way, Ei- that I think will be needed is leadership. In a way, The other thing S minds me, in my old man hearings aids way,with Lasik and now did I old man in my only minds me, a question somebodybetter answer to up with a come an asked probably to become What allowed Jews hour ago: that and for mainstream, matter as Catholics In fact, maybewell? Ann’s in Lee cannot I question. it was keep anythingWar II for allowed it was World what Interestingly, straight. a is not tradition” quote “Judeo-Christian one: the two reasons. Number Moore, Deborah Dash historian, construction. As the is a social tradition. It in World War II called book about Jewish soldiers a terrific points out in GI Jews II. Because inyou conscription, mass World War II, with a lot of Jew- had who either never encountered Christians soldiers, lot of ish soldiers, and a ways. volatile or had encountered each other onlythe other before, I in archetypalmean, the Jewish be chased by experience was to the Irish- up for being a and be beaten neighborhood in the Catholic tough kid had that generation father and uncles’ “Christ killer.” All the men in my experience. Vatican II, by the way, that totally not my experience. made was tradition the Judeo-Christian But to create a unified fighting force, invented. And it also helped godless Nazism in fighting against and godless on our racial supremacy who is in Japan. It was another way defining of such a Judeo-Christian tradition was side. That side and who is on their the war. good idea that it was given legs after of Jews and Catholics is the Howof African-Americans. inclusion can you of racialfight a war against two forms back and and then come supremacy continue to have racial supremacy, or religious bigotry, tolerated in this was anti-Catholic is no accident that initially It there bias, then an country? anti-Jewish bias, and then a lot of anti-Black bias—at least the legal in- twentyyears World War II. World War II after are toppled in the struments makes it impossible to politely in the United States. argument sustain that It for Muslim-Americans. moment And, what we will need is a comparable the lossis terrible that we have not utilized of Muslim-American life in the 11 September 52 52 responders in the yearsresponders in the since then, as a waythat exact point. to make to put into senhower, as an ultra-white-bread Protestant, was a good man play, of course, the idea of Catholic and inclusion Jewish because he had game. He was neither. that no skin in 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 33 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 33 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 34 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 53 53 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT , was , major. And you are right; it N th O (D DOCX ] The state of the union address. And it is it ] The state of the union address. And ). : But [George] W. was veryinter- good—sorry to : But [George] Nodding : Well yes, symbolically—just how Eisenhower : I agree, I agree. I thinkto the what W. did, going : [ : Can I answer that atheist, in response to that atheist : The state of the union address. : The most “American.” “American.” : The most THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA EMBER WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( LI LI M A A A REEDMAN REEDMAN REEDMAN F F F OUNDTABLE AJAHAT AJAHAT AJAHAT UDIENCE AM AM AM P02 - R W A S I think, similarly,I think, Barack of the because Obama, way perceived he is W W S S one? I do not know if she left. Perhaps it was ineloquent wording on my left. Perhaps it was ineloquent wording if she know do not one? I to suggest that all atheists, not mean or that there part, but I did is an all- I was verymilitant atheism. specific about names in andparticular, I want to stress those two names again: Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. And undid it all. But I think one reason that there was not a backlash that has one reason that there was not a backlash I think But undid it all. hugely important— an important—a happened since then is that he gave message that time. day. And that bought some was—who is going to have to be the person who carries that message out. who carries that out. message to be the person was—who is going to have mosque four days after September 11 four daysmosque after September 2015] 2015] rupt—but W. was very was rupt—but W. he made the decision to invade Iraq, good. Then everything. which undid sadly as an alien and as a cause of the Muslimizing of this country, will of this sadly of the Muslimizing and as a cause as an alien he can as make be able to this point, eloquently articulatelynever, as and as to be the have going to It is over. this point who can put be the person and certainlynon- non-Catholic probably Christian, and whitest, most one to have to be the who is going landscape, in the political Jewish, person John were brief flickers of it in 2008 when there I think who messages this. about to that woman McCain talked back in that town Barack Obama hall when McCain talked back Or moment. is just one fleeting debate. But that McCain on his election night as gave his booed Obama to the people who you need someone—the that night. But concession speech whitest white Christian person. Christian, person—the most just unconscionable that that moment was lost and that its veered so far to was lost and that its veered so just unconscionable that that moment the other extreme. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 34 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 34 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 34 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 The . And Salon ]. laughter [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D ] from Hawaii, and then Jonathan and from ] DOCX ). inaudible 8: My name is Gary. CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW ]—no, I’m serious,]—no, I’m it. It betrays go research some : So much method [ for scientific : So much : Yeah, yeah,you really see : Yeah, scientific method. But, if EMBER : Okay, I was hoping we would have time for one more for one : Okay,more I was hoping we would have time WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ]. Our [ ( laughter M A ] . . . ] REEDMAN F OUNDTABLE , which followed up Nathan Lean’s great article in Lean’s great article up Nathan followed , which ]. And let just sayme ]. after that, we’ll thank our panel, and then ]. You know, some academics just stay away from Twitter, be- from academics You know, some just stay away ]. inaudible AJAHAT ODERATOR UDIENCE AM pointing P02 - R So, for the last group of three. Mohammad, I was going to give you a give I was going to Mohammad, group of three. the last So, for M S W A laughter laughter short one, but I let you have that last one on W. I am going to have toshort one, but I let you am have that last on W. I one spread [ there will be a lunch break and we will here at 12:30 for the last reconvene panel and the final keynote speaker. There is lunch available in various different venues around here. then [ these claims he’s made, first and foremost, they have teamed up with some with have teamed up these claims first and foremost, they he’s made, industry,of the people in the Islamophobia implicitly, at least and there seems to be a high level of animosity specifically whatever towards Islam, “Islam” of atheism. means, that focus narrow and Muslims. So I wanted to Specifically, those two people. 54 54 give going to I am and network, Islamophobia the yes, are types of there they to Google because names. Just go sum- do a good concise you three with a great article out in Greenwald came week, Glenn mation. Last Guardian cause Dawkins certain, in particular has unleashed in the last two months lazyvery clumsy, And he said that and Muslims. against Islam invectives it, which about Quran, but he knows enough the he has not even studied of betrayskind [ you’reyou if know, of, . . . academic an round, we do not have time, but we will have one more round anyway we will have one but have time, more round, we do not [ specifically, of say, have a sense I would and Dawkins mili- do both, Harris which has tant atheism, specifica animus towards Muslims and Islam. Dawkins has been using many and someof the literature of the writers who bywho are used both network, and the Islamophobia in up have shown speakingbeing an And Twitter, of both Geller and Robert Spenser. Pam peopleshould never get on Twitter think some entity of good and bad, I [ 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 34 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 34 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 35 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 ] inaudible 55 55 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). 10: I want to 10: somethingspeak up in favor of 9: My name is Kareem Hunt. I think Sam Hunt. I men- is Kareem 9: My name 8: Well, I am not working so that indicates that I not working so that 8: Well, I am ] Opposition to the violent settlers of [ settlers of to the violent Opposition ] THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA EMBER EMBER EMBER : Yeah, great. great. : Yeah, : That, bythe way, of a nice crisp question is a model WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( M M M inaudible ] Second World War, the right of Christianity and Zionism, es- and Zionism, of Christianity War, the right Second World ] OUNDTABLE ]. Everybody keep it like that; it would be good. good. it would be keep it like that; Everybody ]. ODERATOR ODERATOR UDIENCE UDIENCE UDIENCE P02 - R M A M A A laughter Inaudible pecially. How might that be, in this day, contributing to the Islamophobia pecially. Islamophobia to the that How in this day, contributing be, might that Wajahat discussed? have some baggage when I come here. We have not yet found out the cause out come here. yet found not We have I have some baggage when of name wasn’t done in the Boston. It probably in of the recent bombing Chris I think of the Bahá’í faith. in the name or regarding religion atheism Hitchens made a mistake,respect to him. with all due God is not great; people do harm in the something everything. It’s not just religion spoils a Jewish was born to name of it. And I of. You can do good in the name an atheist, wasn’t intellectual when I was thirteen. I became but I family, Hitchens were bothFreud and Chris but then I came to realize something. verydid not I stoical. Most people aren’t going down in history. You know, have a very and great life, so I’m homework skeptical and I should do my the philosophical skeptics mean. I dofind out what religion was think 2015] 2015] that’s been criticized several times this morning which is “good Muslim, which is “good several times this that’s been criticized Muslim, morning Jew, of “good As a Jew, Ibad Muslim.” embrace the dichotomy endorse, bad Jew.” [ [ tioned it, but I would like to hear more about the student Israeli conflict. the student Israeli about like to hear I would more but tioned it, [ movements and Israeli rabbis trying to monopolize and establish extremist and establish extremist and Israeli rabbis tryingmonopolize movements to Pastor Jones in the interpretations of Halakha. The despicable YouTube because of that. I people two dozen was outrageous, but so is killing movie Jews and Muslims if we are going to have, as I for verythink it is important frequently against the speak up alliance, to hope, an effective long lasting especiallyand our own group. By groups, in both extremists the murderers a Jewish- Jew, not way, thean American I alwaysI am fact that emphasize a Jew first—I assumeyouhave I am American. are Muslims first—and I in commonmore with other Jews than other Americans. “Jewish- isAmericans” somethingthe that Americans invented. The Americans American Sorry, not accept. which I do U.S. government, invented the Jews. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 35 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 35 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 35 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 are there schools where [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol 22 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). 11: I do have a couple of quick questions. One couple of quick questions. One do have a 11: I CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW EMBER : Thank you. you. : Thank WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( M OUNDTABLE ODERATOR UDIENCE P02 - R M And something for Sam and Lee Ann. I’m thinking about something thinking and Lee Ann. I’m for Sam And something A Mustafa Baig is a scholar on Islamic Mustafa Baig is a United Studies in Manchester, scholar on Islamic Kingdom. 22 56 56 because than this, more something there is I do hope but up, made probably towe do tend want there somethingto be than more Religion is ulti- this. mately very unlike the physical because subjective, you sciences, no know, bushes burning to people through does not talk seen a soul. God doctor has youwant to have baggage, if I So, and again, get consumed. that do not what I say reality, be based on secular unpack something, is law, it must our traffic example, For nontheistic. atheistic, it which doesn’t means mean laws are not They atheism or theism. based on are based on safety. And ultimately, this does have a religious dimension—safety protecting and and above board in our legal being the environment, each other, protecting And so business practices. or rich; I’m not that famous some, I hope I make I wish I were but I sometimes both, do a statement after tend to make a prob- If you knew my it was not totallylecture, but I hope inappropriate. you would forgive me. lems, for Wajahat. Is anything being done at the grass roots level, like in for Wajahat. Is anything being done schools—Jewish schools, Christian schools, schools? And also, or public obviously, I’m because an outsider, not sure I’m children are being prepared to face these challenges?prepared to face children are being Especially with work in schools—because yourself—ifyou like some someone are doing now where we have some Jews, Christians, stuff in the United Kingdom just in general, to do in schools, or sometimes go in together and Muslims there. for the kids something between upon it—statements mean you touched idea of joint—I around the Christians, Jews, and Muslims and whoever I do else. not want to use the instead of Mus- attack on all, but one is an NATO line where, an attack on a cross-party it is kind of defense. Welims defending Muslims, did some- for the circumcision controversy in Europe in Germany, this thing like where I was told to write the statement and it was signed by a Mumbai a much a Christian priest. And we found that’s and also scholar Muslim especially the Muslims when we for things, effective waydoing more of have Jews and Christians on board. If you get a large enough member base—it’s and Jew—if Christian, “We have not just a Muslim, can say,you you list,” for example, our mailing signed up for who have 2,000 members 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 35 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 35 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 36 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 ] issues ]. pointing inaudible 57 57 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). : I’ll start by addressing your [ your by addressing start : I’ll : I’m going to try to be succinct on all of them. The rea- of them. be succinct on all to try going to : I’m THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( LI AMBACH A B NN A OUNDTABLE AJAHAT EE P02 - R W L that you raised when you said laws must be based on something secular.raised when youthat you something must be based on said laws you cited become completelyWe can never I think our laws, and in secular store one in the grocery was walking I Georgia, and from am that. Again, I with my mentioned the fact that who Sunday eleven-year-old son, they do He Sundays. not sell liquor on asked, “Isn’t that against the Constitution?” are definitelySo these blue laws a Christian, based on Sabbath, and Sunday blatantly be shouldn’t they that your idea with But I agree that. things like secular, non-religious do the best that we can to create a religious. And we legal system in this country.do not really see anybody But I pushing who Muslims who I’ve interviewed, orthodox the most against that. Even that as and who see country establish Islamic tribunals in this really want to Or-the wayOrthodox Jews would, because faith in essential to their that example. not sue each other in non-Jewish courts, for thodox Jews should Most Muslims are verythat the civil clear law, that the secular law, places safety health and on them in this country. We have regulations; we limits that as an issue reallyfor any- not see So I do regulations. have criminal else? have something you Wajahat, do body in this country. son why I think “good Muslim versus bad Muslim” is so problematic is I’m Muslim” is so problematic versus bad “good Muslim son why think I us who are out those among or calling not adverse to some self-policing bad, committing terrible, illegal acts. There are people who are “bad” and there are people who tryor rationalize their “badness” in the to legitimize of and the individuals who are religion, which taints both the religion name as still being with Muslims problem The community. religious part of that is that there“not mainstream” is a rich ocean of Jewish narratives in Amer- Seinfeld; like ica. I will give when people see you an example, Seinfeld, Jewish. all know he’s Jewish comedian.” he’s that And we they think, “Oh New York, who is funny, who and Seinfeld is a comedian who is from happens to be Jewish. Okay.there was a process, if you And of the will, American the into integrating Jewish civilization, the Jewish immigration, that exotic any You can more. Whiteness; where being Jewish do not seem also be happens to and who be neurotic happens to be a character, who marker attachedJewish. But now there is still the exotic to Muslims. And example. If it use the Boston Bombing we’ll . . . when something, let’s say the American community,even those Muslim was done bya Muslim, and 2015] 2015] of mem- thousands many with possibly organization an are representing [ you can work if bit of clout a have quite will bers, you 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 36 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 36 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 36 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 ] ] No Laughter Laughter [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). : Do we need a Muslim Woody: Do we need a Muslim Allen? [ CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW : It is interesting that some it started, instead of of : And the Muslim-ness is not a primary, or even a sec- EMBER WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( M A ]—no we should talk about it. As far as the Islamophobia ]—no REEDMAN F OUNDTABLE ]. Nothing will happen. will happen. Nothing ]. AJAHAT UDIENCE AM inaudible P02 - R A W S If it happens to be, however, God forbid, a minority—forget Mus- a minority—forget God forbid, be, however, to If it happens national securityIn going back to our narrative, there’s so much more laughter seriously, and this is the response: We do not hang out with those people, seriously, with those out hang and this is the response: We do not people are effing crazy.okay? Those Like, whyout with hang would we you saying?what I’m those people? Do see to our lives and our narratives than justto our lives and security, national right? Go to of people saysports—Mohammad Ali, Hakeem Olajuwon. A lot talk to about national security.people? I have been in discussions Honestlythem with NCTC say,and that set, and they “Tell us where Abdul the “extrem- hang out?” [ Where do the Taliban ist” gets his information. comedy, a little bit in theater, and in the literature, the Muslim-American bit in theater, and in the literature, thecomedy, a little Muslim-American But those are forms that speak reallystory is starting to get a little traction. to cultural mandarins—the elite. I think the question is when will the mass a Seinfeld when will movie, Hollywood media—when will a really big Audiences loves this a Muslim? personlevel popularity TV show—have protagonist. lim—that does not have that cultural, political space,lim—that does not right? He will be like Daffy will be on all of our heads and the shrapnel Duck. The anvil will fall of our face, blasted right in front which is why the “good Muslim, I think veryalso is dichotomy troubling. bad Muslim” 58 58 defend, to interrogate, be asked will but aren’t Muslim, look Muslim who borne not burden is The Alright? Muslim-ness. and explain their investigate that commit that individual terrorist who helped by or those the individual communities thatand international borne byact; it is national, local, the is if it it] way [simplify And the I try to who are Muslim. or looks “Islamic” dudeis a white is ansay does it, like, let’s who there Suppose McVeigh. week. next we find out in the does this, who anti-government individual be like White people will Bugs Bunny. head The anvil will not fall on their [ ondary consideration. It’s a process. It’s ondaryAnd it is a process that others have consideration. gone through. I just want to talkeda quick point about—someone make about the succinct question about evangelical Christian, Israel, and Pales- tine [ industry goes, there are significant ties to what we call evangelical Chris- 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 36 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 36 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 37 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 59 59 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). : Well, let me even tie in . . . you said you know . . . : Well, let me even tie in : This is willexactly say. I was going to I something THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( AMBACH B REEDMAN NN F A OUNDTABLE EE AM P02 - R S Let us be real about this. And then Muslims die after, apparently. But this. And then Muslims Let us be real about is a So there Franklin Graham. Bill Graham, have the son of Now you L then you have Christians then you have Christians Israel. And youUnited for Gabriel have Brigitte the Act for America, co-founder of Christian, leader and who is a Maronite talk about grassroots grassroots organization. We will leading anti-Muslim a Christians United for Israel conference talk at gave a for a second. Who They’re soul. have no “Arabs and Muslims and who said [paraphrasing], a very the 700 Club, Pat Robertson of dead set on killing?” influential network, and also a Islamophobic deeply tied to the evangelical Christian, the anti-Sharia legislation. proponent of political union between these groups that plays out on the grassroots initia- tives in a big, big way. And Muslims and our allies do not have a strategic years that. What we have seen in the last two to counteract organized force are pockets that Tennes- spring up in communities—like New York and bubbling. see—ad hoc stuff that is emerging and 2015] 2015] extreme, tians—the say,I would and cynical a and politically expedient not want to But I do Zionism. right-wing who are for the those union with Hagee, Christians Pastor terminology. in my be inelegant United for Isra- el—Okay? the know the narrative—that We all will comemessiah back to messiah the Holy once the and sedate it, to control it and Land, Jews need the will be the Jews. killed pretty much back, comes first people bet if I went back, I could recover all the email I have deleted, you know, I have deleted, email all the recover I could back, bet if I went not have an would be surprised if I did after that attack on the U.N. base. I CAIR and some other Muslim-American groups— e-blast from email—an premise is that there’s such an unexamined problem it. The condemning Muslims or why do not the moderate Muslims, that there are no moderate you know . . . be heard that even when, that Muslims need to speak up. And every time there’sof attack, some kind up. And every time need to speak that Muslims whether or not it’s by it is Muslim, always, a “Well need to con- Muslims yesterday,hours of group.” Well the bad Muslims within their within demn started getting I and press releases emails the bombing, allfrom of these and Relations] on American-Islamic Muslim listservs—CAIR [Council and vic- the victims for and praying the bombing other ones—condemning somehow, But families. those do nottim’s get translated into Muslims say- ing anything. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 37 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 37 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 37 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ]. ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N inaudible O (D DOCX ). : They say something ...... say: They something CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW : I’m sorry : I’m day Mustafa. My kids went to a Jewish : It’s ignored because we all know there because we all : It’s ignored are no mod- : If you’re a Palestinian nationalist; if you’re a unitaryyou’re : If you’re if a Palestinian nationalist; : Right. : Right. : I know I did give you guys I did want to you a handful. : I know I did give MBACH WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( LI A BA REEDMAN REEDMAN REEDMAN NN F F ]. He’s been an important voice in the Orthodox world in saying Orthodox world voice in the He’s been an important ]. F OUNDTABLE A AJAHAT ODERATOR EE AM AM AM P02 - R And also one more thing on the good Muslim, bad Muslim. The prob- bad Muslim. thing on the good Muslim, And also one more M S W S L S inaudible state person—I’m not, I’m a Zionist, a liberal sort, but a Zionist nonethe- Zionist I’m a Zionist, a liberal sort, but a not, state person—I’m less—but if you’re a unitary Muslim, state person as a that doesn’t make you know, then we be the definition, that cannot To me, you immoderate. percent of American Muslims out ninety-eight going to wipe are probably as moderates. I do not think that there is a reason to do that. complicated is that life is someone can be good on than that, and more lem preparation As I was going through my one issue and terrible on another. RIETS, the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan from Rabbi Hershel Schachter for today, at Yeshiva University,Theological Seminary of has been great on the issue [ within not religiously required. But it’s this is anathema, this is dangerous; the last few weeks, he made some statements about outrageous racist is heblacks. So is he the good Jew, or you the bad Jew? I can think of, stands I might ap- world who will take know there are, Jews in the Torah stances on territorialprove of on medical expansion or ethics and take max- in Israel, or the powerimalism of the chief rabbinate in Israel, that I may I think it is risky to try to boil bad Jew? find objectionable. So, good Jew or things down that way. school, although it was a they a lot of inter- very one, and did hippy-dippy had speakers they work. And emphasis on interfaith faith; there is a lot of lot of speakers about Israelis— Theythat focus on America. had a 60 60 erate Muslims. I think And also, because there’s a use of the legitimate between disagreement many American and manyMuslims American Jews there’s on Israel-Palestine; a that of misuse as a way delegitimize to anyone as a Muslim. moderate make sure somebodyquestion about about Mustafa’s said something take it [ you and then school initiatives 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 37 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 37 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 38 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 61 61 ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O (D DOCX ). ]. : In the last ten years, lo- communities and more more THE ANTI-SHARI’AMOVEMENT INAMERICA WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH LI ( ], tomuch ], the sadness of the priests who saw my name laughter A OUNDTABLE laughter AJAHAT P02 - R Okay, so when it comes to grassroots, I will tell you we are at where I will tell Okay, to grassroots, so when it comes notice, and this is disturb- point—is to make—last The point I wanted I also want to end on some of these to end on some I also want statements—the need for joint W every semester [ right now, which is somewhat encouraging, but we have a long waybut we have a long to go. is somewhat encouraging, right now, which the diverse that from An acknowledgement and awareness communities this problem exists, that addressedwe have not and this problem, we need to get to point B. How do we get to point B? What do we do? The messy worse, we are in that part right or first steps, the second steps, for better systematic and as say the not as consolidated, organized, are now. So we the needAct of America, but people have realized for the counter to the on the education, grassroots, activism, and political levels. Act of America know what youing—you are talking about—the responses to what hap- pened yesterday. a sadness that There is that theypeople have to prove are test. Do I do two lapels is and wave a litmus enough. There Americaholic hat?the flag wearing do How the Uncle Sam much I talk about loving jury,judge, or to this What will prove Seven times? Six times? America? that is American see, that I am enough? I think executioner that I cannot troubling. statements—absolutely. I was proudest of Michael Bloomberg; Mayormy Michael Bloomberg; was proudest of I statements—absolutely. in New York was in the controversy.“Ground Zero Mosque” of the middle were on Liberty Island think they group. I interfaith He put together an you in the background. Rabbis, priests, with the statue being know, proba- bly array Hindu and Sikh clergy as well—a toof religious leaders whole that has of the tolerance for Park51. So I agree speak up in favor extra trac- better. do that, the we can more tion, and the 2015] 2015] IsraelisPalestinian Israelis—and Jewish and the at efforts coexistence that is- on to is big that theyof the school went fact, the founder there. In sue, so some of it is out there. cally are creating their private Muslim cally Muslim school or Montessori schools their private are creating to get we see in Catholic schools to what very of both, the dual education similar and JewishMuslims—American education, but with schools, happening as also an education that gives our values well. And now in the last two years, the Bay especially—I’m seen an active en- from area—they have I, is encouraging. so this and churches, with local synagogues gagement myself, a am product of an all-boys Catholic Jesuit high school where I was in religious grade every semester who got the highest the token Muslim studies [ 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 38 Side A 01/14/2015 15:25:42 A 01/14/2015 38 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 38 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 ]. I’m ] I’m saying, laughter [Vol 90:1 90:1 [Vol ) 1/9/2015) 12:18 PM ELETE D OT N O Inaudible from audience (D DOCX ). article that came out yesterday not talk came article that that did CHICAGO-KENT LAW REVIEW CHICAGO-KENT LAW : I’m sorry: I’m a dark note [ to close on such WITH SMALLCHANGES WITH ( ] Washington Post OUNDTABLE ODERATOR Applause P02 - R [ The second thing we have to mention, speaking about the responses,about the speaking to mention, have we second thing The M sorryyou. we have to go. Thank 62 62 there is a about the response from Muslim-American communities; international from Muslim-American response about the are Muslim communities bated breath, prayingwaiting with the indi- that the Boston act. Why? for a Muslim even me yesterday And not vidual is and again head my into thought popped that looking at this, when I was head. Because my into myself hated for that thought popping again, and I like, “WhyI’m am I already the fact that prepping a response and dreading to the ?” Because, again going back of 2001, memories . . . if it’s a Muslim was a stu- are yours, I like they mind seared into my which are very, very Berkeleydent leader at UC thatI remember and time—I’m being very American leader. a conversation with another Muslim open—I was having if I have it in me know God forbid, I do not like, if it’s a Muslim, man I’m dance. [ post-9/11 to do this, to do the it goes back to Mus- the key the point that—this is thing—internationally, local lims know that the will become the become the national, which will narrative that has perpetuated in the into the international, which will feed It will that Boston community. last ten years,not only affect which will anvil will fall on the Daffyaffect international relations and the who Ducks And that is very,very tough. look Muslim. 35947-ckt_90-1 Sheet No. 38 Side B 01/14/2015 15:25:42 B 01/14/2015 38 Side Sheet No. 35947-ckt_90-1