Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 22 OCTOBER 1946

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Health Acts Amendment Bill. [22 OcTOBER.] Questions. 831

TUESDAY, 22 OCTOBER, 1946.

;)fr. SPEAKER (Hon. S. J. Brassington., ~'ortitude Yalley) took the chair at 11 a.m.

CtUESTIONS.

Housr;,:a SI'rES, COOPER's PLAINS AND SUNNYBANK, Itir. BRAND (Isis), for Mr. NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of the Opposition), asked the Secretary for Public Lands- '' What area of land adjoining the eastern side of the South Coast railway between Cooper's Plains and Sunnybank railway stations is available for housing purposes-(a) unoccupied land owned by the Commonwealth, (b) by the State, and (c) occupied as perpetual leases but subject to resumption conditions~''

Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers) replied- '' The Department has no information regarding land owned by the Common­ wealth which might be unoccupied. 'l'he only vacant Crown land adjoining the eastern side of the South Coast railway between Cooper's Plains and Sunnybank railway stations which is available and suitable for housing purposes are areas of a bout 3 acres comprising the eastern part of portion 190, and about 12~ acres com­ prised in portion 525, parish of Y eerong­ pilly, a design of which land is at present being prepared with a view to subdivisior. 832 Papers. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

and sale. Perpetual leases are not held VETERINARY SURGEONS ACT ":"?ject to any special resumption con­ AMEND:\1EN'r BILL. ditiOns, and any land held under that tenure is therefore not available to be INITIATION. dealt with by the Cro1vn for housing pm­ lion. H. H. COLLINS (Cook-Secretary poses.'' for Agriculture am1 Stock): I move- '' That the House will, at its next sitting, 8PECIAL LEASE, BOW EN DJSTRIC'f. resolve itself into a Committee of the Mr. PA'I.'ERSON (Bowen) asked the \Vhole to consider of the desirableness of Secretary for Public Lands- introducing a Bill to amend the Veterinary Surgeons Act of 1936 in certain '' (1.) Was the land (R. 37, parish of particulars.'' Kelsey, Bowen) thrown open for special lease in or about the year 1 936? :\I otiou ngrcell to. " (2.) If so, (a) who secured the lease and what were the period and rental SUGAH EXPERIMENT STATIONS thereof; (b) did any other persons tender ACTS AMEND::\IENT BILL. for the leasr and what rental did theY offer? · INll'IATJON. "(3.) Has the' perior1 of the lease Hon. H. H. COLLIN§ (Cook-Secretary l'Xpired ~ for Agriculture and Stock): I move- '' 'l'hat the House will, at its next " ( 4.) If the answer to (3) is "Yes"­ sitting, resol.-e itself into a Committee of (a) when did it expire; (b) has it been the Whole to consider of the desirableness extended, and, if so, for \Vhat period and of introdming a Bill to amend the Sugar at what rental; and (c) were applications Experiment Stations Acts, 1900 to 1941, called, either by ad,-ertisement or other­ in certain particulnrs. '' wise, to enable persoirs other than the previous lE',lsees to tend.er for the lease? ?\lotion agreed to. "(5.) If applications were not called, what \Yas the reason for sue h action'?'' SGPPLY.

RE::>tiMPTJON OF Co1niiT'rEE-EsTIMA1'ES­ Hon. A. JONES (Charters Towers! replied- F'IF'rH A}ID SIXTH ALLO'rTED DAYS. '' 1. Yes. ('rhc Chairman of Committees, Mr. J\;fann, Brisbane, in the chair.) "2. (a) Austin Francis Vaughan and James Maltby, as tenants in common in ESTIMATES IN CHIE}', 1946-1947. equal interests. Term of lease 10 years DEPART:IIENT Q]' ,JUSTICE. from 6 August, 1936. Upset 'rentai wa~ COURTS OF PETTY SESSIONS. £2 per annum. Rental bid nt auction. £35 per annum. (/J) The lease \YRS sold nt Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich-Attor­ auction to the highest bidders. m'y-General) (11.7 a.m.): I move- '' That £165,096 be granted for 'Courts "3. The lense was declared forfeited on of Petty Session~. ' ' ' 18 April, 1941, for failurE' h:'- tlw lessees to pay the rent due. The amount required is £29,733 greater than last year's expenditure, brought about "4. (a) See answer to (3). (b) and by increases in salaries amounting to (c) A special lease of the reserw after the £22,046 and an increase in Contingencies of excision of 12 acres, leaving an m·ea of £7,687. The expected increase in salaries 443 acres, was again offered for sale by expenditure is brought about by the return public auction on 2 April, 1942, for a of a number of officers from war service, term of 10 years at an upset annual aml proYision is made for the payment of rental of £3 13s. 10d. ( 2d. per acre). The 79 additional officers in connection with the lease was purchased at the sale at the work of courts of petty sessions. Allowance upset rental by Austin Frm1eis Vaughan is made also to meet the higher cost of and James 1\faltby as joint tenank The liYing in different parts of the State. Fares, sale was advertised in the usnal mnnnPr.'' freights, printing ancl stationery account for an appropriatio~ of £1,980; there will be an unusually high number of transfers during PAPERS. the year because officers are coming back to their employment. The following paper was laid on the table and ordered to he printed- The sum of £4,180 is proYided for retiring allowances. This is a new vote in respect Report of the Department of Agriculture of seven officers who were retired on and Stock for the year 1945-1946. 30 June, 1946, an cl one officer who died during July. There are small increases in The following paper ·was laid on the table­ the other Contingencies items. Order in Council under the State Develop­ Mr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (11.9 ment and Public Works Organisation a.m.) : When speaking the other day I made Acts. 1938 to 1940 (10 October, 1946). the st:1tement that in constitutional cases Supply. [22 OCTOBER.) Supply. 833 comi_ng before the courts of petty sessions It is expected that the cost of printing I d1d not expect any magistrate to give annual rolls will be £1,723 more than last a decision in my favour against the Govern­ year. Supplementary rolls will have to be ment, with the exception of my friend, printed too to cover the period from the Mr. Arthur Aitkin. I was speaking about beginning of the year until the issue of the the magistrates I knew who 1Yen• in office writ. In addition the Electoral Office has in Brisbane at that time and my remarks do been exceptionally busy in enrolling men who not necessarily apply to those who are there have returned from active service. Its officers today. I make that point clear. attended at the camps when soldiers were As a matte-r of fact, at least two that I being demobilised, with the result that 55,000 know there today are 100 per eent. In case forms for enrolment on the State rolls were there should have been any misunderstanding received from seryice men ancl 1Yomen return­ I want to make it clear that I 1YUS not talking ing from active service. That shows that the about the magistrates who are there today. Electoral Office has been \·ery active in get­ Now I come to another matter, one that ting the returned men and women on the roll. I have have mentioned before in this Chamber, After the Federal elections we found that that is, that the salaries of magistrates should many thousands more people were on the ,State be paid free• of income tax so as to make rolls than on the }'edETal rolls, berause the them more financially secure than they are E'edeml electoral authorities did nothing iu today, in order that they cannot be bought this way to get returning service men and over. _I do not know of a single magistrate women on the roll. When demobilisation was or a JUdge who has ever been bought OYer taking place at Reclbank, illoorooka and other so far as money value is concerned. I do places, three of our State officers attended not know of any who has been handed a sum at those camps to fill in the electoral regis­ of money, although it could have happened. tration forms for the demobilised men and However, I do !mow that magistrates or judges womc11, who merely had to sign the forms have been bought OYer by way of other con­ in order to get on the roll. I want to talw siderations. To help eliminate those other this opportunity of congratulating the Prin­ considerations I suggest that the Government cipal Electoral Officer, Mr. Maguire, ancl his should make their salaries tax-free when we officers, on the splendid work they did in get back the right to levy our own income getting these returned men and women 011 the tax. roll. At 11.12 a.m., li'Jr. l'IE (Windsor) (11.17 a.m.J: Elec­ toral registration is the most important phase ~Ir. DEVRIES (Grcgory) rclie1·ed the in the whole of our political system. I ques­ Chairman in the chair. tion whether we should not adopt the practice in usl' in most of the other States, where Mr. HILEY (Logan) (11.12 a.m.): In a previous discussion of these Estimates I the Commonwealth rolls and the State rolls, inquired from the Attorney-General whether together with their subdivisions, are on a law schools could be established in the uniYer­ uniform basis. I find, for instance, that for sity of Queensland in contemplation of the State purposes I am on the Sandgate roll approach of the time when the. present but in the N undah section of the I,illey Com­ examinations for police magistrates and clerks monwealth electorate. This is Yery confusing of petty sessions would be superseded by to many people. examination and training at the Universitv. Then the basis of checking the rolls is I repeat that inquiry of the Attorney-General different in the State from the basis used in now to discover whether the time for employ­ the Commonwealth. The work of checking ing the schools I mentioned for these Public State rolls is done by the police, but the Service requirements has drawn netner. checking of the Federal roll is done by the postal authorities. The time has come when Hon. D. A. GJ,EDSON (Ipswich- there should be a uniform basis for dissect­ Attorney-Genera!) (11.13 a.m.): The Queens ing the districts and a uniform roll through­ land Law Society instituted a com·se of lec­ out the whole of the States. Rnch uniformity tures for this training about the middle o.f operates very effectively in Victoria, New last year and quite a number engage-d in this South Wales, and other States, and there work, including magistrates and clerks of is no confusion there. I make the plea that petty sessions, are getting a certain amount in order to avoid confusion here this uniform of training under it. system should operate at the very earliest Vote (Courts of Petty Sessions) agreed to. opportunity. At the last Federal election, as pointed out by t1te Attorney-General, a tre­ ELEC'rORAL REGISTRATION. mendous number of returning service men were Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich- disappointed because they did not have a vote. Attorney-General) (11.14 a.m.): I move- Had there been a uniform system in this State, the returned service men now on the '' That £42,019 be granted for 'Electoral State rolls would have been on the Federal Registration.' '' rolls, and they would haYe had a vote. This figure represents an increase of £1,014 lUr. Gledson: They would not have been, in salaries and £27,652 in contingencies. Six because there was no-one to put them on the additional officers are employed compared with Federal roll. last year. The general elections will be held in the next calendar year, within the present Mr. PIE: If the Federal Electoral Office financial year. Provision is made for expenses had been as active as the State office, these amounting to £25,450 in connection there,Yith. men "·oulc1 haYe been on the Federal roll. 1946-2D 834 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

.Mr. Gledson: Immediately you have a under which it may be able to check these uniform roll the State Electoral Office would things. I only want to get a sound basis for be abolished. rolls. We are working on it ,as a party because it is a real problem that has to he overcome. We .Mr. PIE: The State Electoral Office is hope to submit to the House and the electoral not abolished in other States, although there authorities a plan to overcome this very real may be a uniform basis there for electoral difficulty, which undoubtedly exists. I believe rolls. The State Electoral Office here· would a vigorous effort should be made-a very not be abolished from the State point of vigorous effort-to bring the rolls into view. 'rhe rolls, however, are uniform in proper condition before the next election. I every way, including the boundaries of subdi­ appeal to the Attorney-General to do the thing visions. \Ve must agree that a man in one thoroughly. I can see, as was pointed out by big Federal electorate should not he on a him, that the elections will cost us about different section of the Federal roll from the £26,000 this coming financial year. We as a section in which he is enrolled for State party look forward to the coming elections. elections. I have seen electors on polling day absolutely confused. They come along and Mr• .MOORE (Merthyr) (11.23 a.m.): I say that they are on the State roll for Sand­ desire to congratulate the Chief Electoral gate hut it is found that they are< on the Officer, Mr. Maguire·, and his staff on the Nundah or Toomhul section of the Federal excellent job they have done under very diffi­ roll. It has been proved over and over again cult circu'mstances. I do not think there is that the rolls are not in an altogether healthy any other electoral office in the world that has condition. Even the police have told us that put up a performance equal to the one put up time and time again electors are not at the by Mr. Maguire and his assistants during the place of residence stated on the roll, but yery difficult war period, when the electors of notwithstanding their report they remain on

know more about electoral incidents than he I realise that it is a tremendous job to \Yould. I do not propose to enter into a dis­ compile a roll. We know that people \Yho cussion of the integrity of the hon. member intend to leave an electorate temporarily are and myself-I leave that to the people in my sometimes a way for years, but they de siTe to electorate who know both of us-but I feel remain enrolled in the electorate, hoping that that I must raise my voice here in defence eventually they will return. In other elector­ of members of the Public Service against rates rolls are incomplete. Last year I had whom these slanders are frequently hurled over 800 letters returned throu_gh the post, across the Chamber and who cannot be present with a noting by the postal authorities that to defend themselves. the addressee was unknown, and I do not think there is one hon. member of this Com­ I have been actively interested in elections mittee who has not had a similar experience. for many years. I have been a poll clerk I do not blame the electoral authorities for and a presiding officer and I have scTUtinised this, bec:mse I appreciate their difficulties, on behalf of the Labour Party. In addition hut there sl1ould be some system under which, I have been in the fortunate position of being if we get definite evidence, such as the return a candidate. During all those years I have of con-espondence by the postal authorities, not seen anything done at elections that was that the people concerned are not entitled to not fair and aboveboard. The Queensland be on a particular roll, the electoral office People's Party by innuenclo suggests that should accept this evidence with a view t.o the Labour Party is the Government of this purifying the rolls as much as possible. State because of certain malpractices but I would point out to thD members of that party Again, there are on the rolls people who that we are the Government of Queensland have been deceased for several years. T admit because the majority of the people of Queens­ that the war has made the position difficult land voted for us because they believed that in this direction, but there should he some we should control the affairs of this State. ensy method, when a person dies, of submit­ ting the necessary informntion to the clectoml lUr. Jiorris: That is not always the ollice so that the rolls may be adjusted. I deciding factor with the majority of the realise the difficult position confronting om­ people, is it~ electoral officers, and I am Yoicing- no com­ plaint here. All I seek to do is to make lUr. MOOR.E: There is a great deal that useful suggestions, and I think the sugges­ the hon. member for Enoggera has yet to tion put forward by the hon. member for learn about politics and about the conduct of Windsor this morning was mnclc in tlHl same elections. Every candidate in an election has spirit. The opportunity will he presenting every opportunity to have scrutineers and itself shortly to make an alteration of the everything else to ensure for himself that system, so that the Commonwealth electorates everything is f:air and aboveboard. may take the names of the State electorates As I said, I rise this morning to congratu­ ancl honndaries could be the same in both late the electoral officers on the great work cases. done by them. I do not think that the elec­ toral staff at election time receive sufficient Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich­ recompense for the job they do. It is work Attorney-General) (11.33 a.m.): In some that requires a knowledge of the Elections States they have joint rolls. but in (~ueenslancl Act, and plenty of common sense, and entails the system used is different. Here the State any amount of hard work. I rise also to pro­ roll is also the jury roll. If we had a joint test against the insinuations hurled about the Commonwealth and State roll it would lw Chamber about these people and to defend necessary to establish either a new depart­ them. They do a good job for the public ment or appoint special officers for the enrol­ and do it very honestly. ling of juries. lllr. lUaher: That would not be hard. llfr. DECKER. (Sandgate) (11.30 a.m.) : I support the suggestion the leader of om Mr. GLEDSON: It could be done as they p:;rty made to the Attorney-General but I go do it in other States, but at present the shghtly fm:ther. If this State is not pre­ State electoral roll is used as the jury roll. p.ared to brmg State electoral boundaries into Mr. Maller: One roll, one country, one line with Commonwealth boundaries the Com­ destiny. m?nw~alth ~haul~ be asked to bring its bound­ arres mto lme With those of this State. Mr. GLEDSON: There is a difficulty with We know very well, and so does the the boundaries because the boundaries of Attorney-General, that in Queensland the some Federal divisions and the boundaries Feder~l rolls are likely to be altered of State electorates are not identical. At one matenally very_ shortly. It is also apparent time they were, the State electoral boundaries that enrolment m some electorates has become being the boundaries of the Federal sub­ unbalanced and action will have to be taken divisions. There was a readjustment in 1921, by the Sta~e to corre_ct the anomaly. When and, with this and subsequent readjustments, we are_makm%· alterahons-and in my opinion the electoral boundaries have become alterat10ns Will be made in the very near unbalanced. future-we shoulcl 0l1Cleavour to introduce a Vve approached the Commonwealth Authori­ system "~hereby the State boundaries will ties but they said that they would not alter coincide with the l~ecleral bonndaries. To their boundaries as there would probably be my mind, it is only a matter of an arnmge­ other alterations and they would have to keep ment between the Commonwealth nnd our­ on altering. There is much to be said in selves to rectify this problem. favour of the proposal and I take it that 836 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. my department will eo-operate with the Com­ greatest privileges and the very essence of our monwealth in the redistribution of seats. society. I hope that those facilities will be The Principal Electoral Officer, Mr. McGuire, extended to them and that the system of tells me that the position is likely to arise proxy voting will be modified to that extent that letters sent out never reach the and that it will not be used improperly so as addressees. The rolls are made up to to ea use confusion. 31 December each year and within a few I suggest also that there should be a review months after that time hundreds of letters of all the State electoral rolls every 12 could be returned marked ' 'Addressee not months, not only every three years when an known'' because there is a 30 per cent. move­ election is pending. The work could be ment in each electorate each year. entrusted to officers of the Police Force, but Mr. Pie: Far too high. the time given to them to do the work should not be restricted. I understand that when Mr. GLEDSON: Hundreds of letters sent they carried out their last review of electoral out in each electorate are returned, which rolls they were restricted in time in that they shows that the addressees have moved. The were instructed to have the work done before only people who can tell where such an a certain date. That did not give them addressee now resides is the Electoral Officer. enough time to carry out a proper investiga­ When a postman cannot deliver a letter he tion. There may be between 12,000 and Teturns it marked, ''Addressee not known."' 14,000 electors on an electoral roll, and in 'rhat is all that the Postal Department will do. order to do his job properly the policeman Mr. Maher: That does not apply to my must call at every house to check the bona electorate. fides of all the electors there. An elector may have gone away for a holiday for a fortnight, Mr. GLEDSON: The Electoral Office and when the election comes round find that knows where the people have moved to. They his name has been removed from the roll. I might have transferred from one division to do not blame the electoral officer for that; he another and when they have registered for the is left with no alternative when the report second division their names are crossed off the comes to him that the elector is no longer roll for the first. The Postal Department living at a certain address but to erase his does not bother; the postman takes his letter name from the roll. The elector, howeve1·, back and says that the addressee is not there may have lived at the same house for 20 or and letters are thus returned to senders. This 30 ·years, but when he goes to the polling position can arise a few months after the booth to exercise the greatest privilege any beginning of the year because of the move­ citizen may have, he is told that his name is ment of electors that takes place continuously. not on the roll. ·when all the circumstances surrounding the removal of his name from the Mr. LUCKINS (Maree) (11.39 a.m.): I support the proposal of the Leader of the roll are withheld from him, he naturally Queensland People's Party for a more compre­ becomes suspicious, but if the review of the hensive electoral rolls. At the same time I rolls was carried out annually instead of every appreciate the difficulty to both the Federal three years it would remove much of the and State offices. I expect that early in the sus.picion some electors feel that their names new year there will be a Federal move with are removed from the rolls for some improper regard to electorates and if my expectations purpose. In any case, my suggestion would are correct a large number of Federal seats do much to clear the air. may be set up in Queensland and Australia. Mr. BRAND (Isis) (11.43 a.m.): The That may be an opportune time for this State hon. member for Windsor has suggested that and the Commonwealth to co-operate. I should there should be a measure of uniformity as not like to see the State Electoral Office done between the State and Federal electoral rolls. away with because it serves a very useful It has been the wish of the hon. memhars on purpose in many directions, particularly in this side of the Committee throughout the municipal elections. The State roll is a bureau years that some action should be taken by the of information and many people who have Attorney-General to induca the Fe·deral been apparently lost can be traced through it. authorities to realise the need for this I congratulate the office on putting demobi­ uniformity. At the present time a person lised troops on the rolls. If the State had who desires to become ·enrolled on both the approached the Commonwealth Government at State and Federal rolls must fill in separate that time and stressed the wisdom of doing forms of application for enrolment. the same thing for the Federal rolls, the If our aspiration is to be efficient we Commonwealth Government might have agreed should at least lessen the difficulties of the that the State officers should enrol the electors in making application for enrolment. members of the forces for Commonwealth A person who makes an application for enrol­ purposes also. That would have been very ment on a State or Federal roll believes that desirable co-operation. he will thus become enrolled on both. There I suppose we can take it that the system of should be no difficulty in the way of having proxy voting by soldiers overseas will be a uniform application form. If it is impos­ continued for another 12 months or till after sible to get a uniform roll, which is the ideal, peace is declared, whenever that will be. In that is an acceptable alternative. I was any event it is to be hoped that whatever pleased to note from the Minister's reply to soldiers are serving overseas, and in whatever the hon. member for Windsor that he is branch of the services they may be, they will endeavouring to get some uniformity in elec. have plenty of time to exercise their right to toral boundaries, which also would give much vote at an election, which is one of their relief. We should be able to get also a Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 837 uniform application form that would entitle ment and refused to let me pay for it. I the applicant to enrolment on both Federal brought that too under the attention of the and State Tolls and for a particular subdivi­ Attorne,y-General, who replied that he would sion, whetheT FedeTal OT State. do something about it, but three years have passed and he has not done one thing a bout It is our duty to see that the people aTe on it. Had that occurred in connection with a the roll. TheTe is nothing more disheaTtening member of the Labour Party the Attomey­ foT a peTson to make an application faT a General would have done something about it; vote and then discover he is not on the roll. but because it was in connection with Barnes, I agree with the provision of our State law whom they want to get Tid of, he has f1one that a person shall not be taken off the nothing about it. State roll unless he is enrolled for some other electorate or in some other State. After all, The hon. member for Merthyr wept buckets that is a wise provision and it has enabled of blood when he spoke of the innuendo of the many persons to remain on the roll. \V e are deputy leader of the Queensland People's always looking for clean rolls, and no-one Party in respect of his attack on a person should be on a roll who is not living in the named Hampson, who is now in charge of electorate, but there are many difficulties to the ballot-papers at the Govemment Printing overcome. There would be much less, cause for Office. He endeavoured to make out that that complaint had we a uniform application form reflected on the whole of the staff of the that would entitle the applicant to enrolment Government Printing Office. That is an on both rolls. I hope that the Minister will absurdity. The fact remains that recently endeavour to bring about greater uniformity it "as proved that mtion-coupon paper came between Federal and State emolments; it out of the Government Printing Office IYould benefit not only the people concerned unknown to the Government l>rinter. That !Jut members of Parliament also. shows that other things could go out unknown to the Govemment Printer; likewise ballot ::\Ir. J ..F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (11.47 papers could go out. There is a stigma on a.m.) : I endorse the remarks of previous Hampson that is important as far as I am epeall:ers. In the past much trouble has been concerned. By virtue of the stigma he should experienced in connection with our electoral not be in that position. "\Vhen you appoint rolls. I was the first hon. member to bring here a man to a position of trust you want to be evidence of the state of our rolls by throwing sure of his bona fides, and Hampson is not on the floor of this Assembly 900 letters that bona fide. If the hon. member for Merthyr had been returned to me marked ''Addressee were anxious to see everything wa& '' on the unknown.'' I tried to locate some of the up-and-up,'' why did he not-as the good unknown persons and in doing so made exten­ C~ll'istian that he claims to be-follow up sive inquiries. I found that a great number the complaint I made three years ago about of them had never lived in the district. They these two people in Bnndaberg telling the old­ 1wre ''phoney'' electors. How did they get age pensioners that they were to have on the roll? I brought the matter before this, a bscntec votes? Chamber to try to get something done but nothing was' done. '!"he last time I spoke on Mr. Moore: I did not believe your com­ the subject I pointed out to the Attomey­ plaint; no sensible person would. General that in Bundaberg two people, one named Walsh, a night officer in the Railway lir. J. F BARNES: It was a complaint Department, and another named Town, went brouO'ht fm'ward on the floor of the Chamber; round the old-age pensioners and told them therebfore it should be investigated. If thP that they could not vote ordinarily and would lton. member were sincere he would have done be forced to use the absentee vote. As one of so, and the Attorney-General would have done these men was a night officer in the Railway so if he were sincere. Department and both >Yere A.L.P. heads the vVe know what the Electoral Office should pensioners believed them. The result was' that do-that is, eliminate a lot of the informal they there and then filled in applications for votes. Most informal votes are causefl by the absentee votes, which were collected by Walsh fact that people put the ''X'' in one square and Town. From my inquiries I believe that and '' 1'' in the second square, or ' ' 1 ' ' in if the pensioners voted Labour they witnessed the top square and ''X'' in the bottom their signature, but if they voted for Barnes square. They are both primary votes and their votes were not witnessed. An absentee therefore they do not count. In my experi­ vote is not worth twopence if it is not wit­ ence the cause of the majority of informal nessed. I pointed out to this Chamber on a votes is the putting of the ''X'' in tl1e one previous occasion that 22 of these votes got square and the '' 1 '' in another square. The by Walsh and Town were not witnessed. It G-overnment have not done anything to rectify was therefore reasonable for me to assume this position. These people honestly believe tha:t that because 22 old-age pensioners stood up if they put "1" for J ones they are helping and voted for Barnes, W alsh and Town to put him in and that if they put an ''X'' inwardly refused to witness their votes thus in the other square the other fellow is crossed making them illegal and informal. I 'know out or vice versa. Nothing has been disclosed some of those votes were for Barnes. I as to the cause of the majority of informal brought the matter before the notice of the votes. Nothing has been done about it and Attorney-General and he did nothing something should have been done. Electoral about it. machinery is a very important matter. I will During the same speech three years ago I give an example of how important it is. mentioned the fact that the Bundaberg news­ Recently we had the Federal Torie11 offering paper refused to take my election advertise- child endowment to 1,000,000 children, which 838 upply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply meant that they offered £19,500,000 by way saying. It does not hurt me one iota. I am of legal oribery. They offered to cut out the thinking of others, I am not particularly means test for 500,000 people, which meant affected. I do not have ' 'How to Vote'' that the country would have to pay cards; but it affects the people of Queens­ £42,350,000. They also offered a 20-per-cc11t. land and it is high time it was stop]1'8d. cut in taxation and company taxation, "·hich amounted to £50,000,000. Mr. lUciNTYitE (Cunningham) (11.58 a.m.): I make the suggestion to the The grand total of tl1at legal bribery was Attorney-General that I made last year as £111,000,000. They offered concessions to the regnros the prepamtion of rolls for local­ public to the equivalent of £111,000,000, whieh authority elcctionR. Local-authority rolls are is just a shade more than the amount receiver1 largely based on the infmmation obtained in Customs duties and sGles tax for the year. from the State rolls. One of the most difficult If so much is at stake on an election day that things a local-authority clerk has to face is some party or somebody will offer conces­ the preparation of rolls for the local­ sions worth £111,000,000, we must look at the authority election, and each year the position thing seriously Gnd I say definitely that is becoming mor2 difficult. The suggestion I having a person of the calibre of Hampson made wa's very simple, that is that the card in the Government Printing Office in Que2ns­ of application for enrolment should have an land is far from looking at it seriously. We extra line on whieh the elector applying for must have highly trusted men in connection enrolment could signify the local authority with elections. J\Ir. 'rucker, the Government area in which h2 lived. That information Printer, is highly trusted, but for argument'" could be transferred by way of a symbol sake, I would point out that any pGrty that to the electoral roll so that when shire clerks is prepared to offer £111,000,000 to gain were preparing thair rolls it would be a very the vote of the p-eople could go to Tucker simple mattE'r for them to decide where the and offer him £10,000 to give them so and so. elector lived. 'l'his system could be very Of course, Mr. Tucker would not agree to easily adopted and would fill a long-felt want. that, but according to the record of Hampson The privilege of voting is the basis of our he would certainly agree to it. This threat great democra tie system and there are to our ·electoral system should be removed. enormous irregularities in our local-authority ll'Ir. Turner: You are not judging by elections, so much so that at the last Local yourself, are you? Authorities' Conference a resolution was carried by the representatiYes of local authorities from the whole of the State that 1Ur. J. F. BARNES: Unfortunately, I representations be made to th:e proper make mistakes, when I give other people credit for having too much brains. That authorities to have this principle> introduced applies to the hon. member. in our enrolment system. There is another asp·ect of electoral cam­ I appeal to the Attorney-General to give paigning, and what goes on on voting flay, favourable consideration to the> suggestion. and that is the assaulting. It is high time It is only a simple matter. All that is needed that what I Tefer to was stopped. Assume is an extra line on the application form, anc1 that I am going along to vote for Jones, it would be an easy matter to find where our and a man comes along and hands me a ratepayers and c>lectors live. I submit it to "How to Vote'' card. It may be how to the Attorney-General for his fayomable con­ vote for the CountTy PaTty, the Queens­ sideration. land People's Party, or the Labour Party. Suppose it is a ''How to Vote'' card for ~Ir. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (12.1 the Country Party. Along comes a Labour p.m.) : Like the hon. member for Merthyr, guy and snatches it out of my hand and puts I have had considerable exp0ricnce in the his own card into my hand. On another taking of ballots for not onl;' municipal but occasion along comes the Labour scTutincer. also State and Federal purposes. After a He does not snatch that one out of my hand lifetime of study and work round polling but he foTces me to take his caTd. I am booths in every capacity, I am eonvinced that speaking of those who force intending there is only one loophole that needs to be closed, and closed effectively if that can be voters to take their cards. That is highway done. I refer to personation. It is a fact robbery. That is ~ed Kelly business and it is high time it was stopped. that a number of people still go from booth to booth and vote at every booth IYithin an An Opposition lUrunbi3r: They aTe giving electorate. At the last State election a something. definite charge was made against one man who, without the knowledge of the hon. mem­ Mr. J. F. BARNES: No, you are taking ber for Townsville-I do not think for a something fTom them. By their high-hande-d moment that the hon. member for Townsville methods they aTe making the people nervous would countenance such a thing-voted twice, and theTefore reducing their physical if not three times, at various polling booths strength, consequently they are taking some­ in the Townsville electorate. I know it is thing from them. It is high time it was extremely difficult to stop personation, but I stopped. On·e has only to sta'nd outside a believe that the Attorney-General should polling booth to understand what I am examine all aspects of the question to see Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 839 whet her we cannot close up this last loophole lUr. AIKENS: I do not know that there to the electoral crooks, because they aTe is. If he contends that his name was CTooks. wrongly stTUck off he can get a vote under the section that pTovides for such ea -es. At 12.3 p.m., '!'hat vote o·oes into a scaled envelope, but The CH_AIRMAN resumed the chair. whether it "is allowed is a matter for the returning officer. Mr. AIKENS: In past elections there has J\h'. 1\Iaher: I have had people complain been a fair amount of personation at the to me of having been struck off a roll after BTisbane booth. I know that for a having been years in the district. long time the voting at the Brisbane booth for various electorates throughout Mr. Marriott: I have not seen one the State was rather higher than was allowed yet, and I haYe scrutineered for expected. At the last State election the years. Communist Party-and I say this to its credit Mr. AIKENS: The returning offic~r although I am not a member, as hon. mem­ makes a check to see whether the person s bers know-did a considerable amount towards name was on the preceding roll or the .Toll stopping personation at the Brisbane booth. for the previous election. If it is1 I believe It had in the Brisbane booth a number of that in many ,cases the returmng officer people who were conversant with residents in allows that vcte. The hon. member f~r the northern electorates, and it was amazing Bulimba who has had perhaps more expcn­ and indeed amusing to see the number of ence th~n I, says that he does not know people who came into the Brisbane booth to of an occasioil where a wrongly-erased vote for northern electorates and who, when elector's vote has been counted. I am prepared they saw this line-up of Communists ready to believe that such was his experience. The only to identify them or denounce them, suddenly \\"aY to get over the difficulty is to hav~ a der,ided that they did not want to vote after uniform roll, and you will not get. it _whilst all and cleared out without having an absent vou have Feileral electorates rechstnbuied vote in that Brisbane booth. Personation from time to time and State electorates rerlis­ does not go on to any great extent-never­ tributed from tinw to time. The only way .to theless it r1oes go on to the extent that it get uniforL? voting is to abolish State Parlu;­ can influence an election one >Yay or another, ments wh1rh should han been done yea1s and I sincerely hope that the Attorney­ ago. '~\bolish the useless excrescences and General will give some thought to stopping t1:ansfer certain of State Parliament fun.c­ this crooked practice. tions to the Feilrral Parliament and ve_st .m A good deal has Leen said about the need rounty councils, as is done in Great Br1tam, for uniformity of rolls, and I agree that the the other powers of the State. County need is there, although frankly I cannot see councils m·e eloscr to the people, they. ~re any solution of the problem while the present elected by adult franchise and in my opuuon are more competent to perform many of t.he political s~t-up remains in Australia. It is disheartening for scrutineers of all parties functions now performed by State . Parlia­ outside polling booths on election day to ments than those Parliaments. While you have people coming to them and claiming to haYE' a Federal Gowrnment and separate have been on the roll for 20, 30 or 40 years, Sbte Governments you will not get a and saying that they have not moved from uniform rolL their residences but for some reason unknown to them they have been removed from the 'l'lle CHAIRlUAN: Order! I think the Toll. Provision is made in the Act wheTeby hon. member is a long way from the matter such a prrson may elaim a vote from the before the Committee. He is discussing presiding officer but although that vote may electoral redistribution and whether it is a be allowcil by the returning officer of the good thing to abolish State Parliaments. T electorate concerned there is no section under think it is time he discussed the matter which an elector who puts in a card to the before the Committee. Sate Elecoral Office, if his name has not been placed on the roll, can have his vote lUr. AIKENS: I shall be only too pleased allowed. If you think you have b~en crossed off the roll illegally you can claim a vote, to do that. The hon. member for Bundaberg but whether the vote is allowed or not is, of raised the question of the distribution of course, problematical. ''How to Vote'' cards at polling booths. I say frankly-that this is borne ou_t by If you have been illegally kept off the experience over many years-:-tha.t 9:J per roll although you have made application to cent. of the electors have theu mmds made he the roll, no provision is made for you ~n up long before they get to a polling booth. to get a vote. I say quite frankly th!lt it is a disheartening job to men workmg at. Jtir. JUaher: Hear, hear! polling booths to see the continuous and ever­ growing number of people who for some Jtir. AIKENS: All they want from the reason or other have been crossed off the distributors of the ''How to Vote'' cards is roll after having been on it for a number the correct way to vote for the candidate of years. they have selected in their own minds long . Mr. Maher: Is there any means by which before they get to the polling place. I have an elector whose name has been struck off handed out thousands of these cards and my the roll can ascertain how he was struck off~ experience is that the elector takes a ''How 840 Sttpply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. to Vote'' card f1 om anyone who will offer subject to this Act and the regulations, be him one. There is no a1gument or fighting, permitted to vote if- but now and again a little jostling might ( a) He sent or delivered to the prin­ take place, but a policeman is always ·'on cipal ·electoral officer or electoml tap'' who ~will quieten dn>Yn any suggestion registrar a duly completed claim for of assault or coercion mentioned by the hon. enrolment or transfer of enrolment, member for Bundaberg. If you watcheu an as the case requires, in respect of the elector closely when he ~was walking from the entrance gate to the polling booth, you district, and the claim was received by the principal electoral officer or would find that he shuffles the various '' llow electoral registrar before the issue to Vote ' cards to get the right one on top. He merely wants to claTify in his own mind of the writ for the election, and that the way in which he shouhl Yote for the he r~ceived from the principal canc1ic1ate he has previously selectPcl. electoral offiecr or the electoral registrar an acknowledgment of such I am particulaTly pleased that theTe is no claim; and he did not, after sending prderential yoting in State elections. In or delivering the claim and before the olden days when you had to vote K o. 1 the issue of th(' writ became quali­ for the first candidate of your choice and fied for transfer of enrolment to you could, if you wished, yote No. 2 for the another district; or second candidate, quite a number of mck2ts (b) His name wao not to the best of 11·cre worked. I remember one incident ili his knowledge, removed from the particular, and it is quite true. lt was the time when Mr. Arti? Fadden contested the TOll owing to objection or transfer or disqualification, and he had from Kennedy electorate a'gainst l,[r. Hayes in the time of his enrolment for the 1932. A numbn of people of alien descent district to the date of the issue of in the Ingham district wanted to vote for the writ for the election continuously Mr. Hayes. They had had enough of the retained his right to enrolment for ;)!loore Government anl they wanted to vote that district.' ' for Mr. Hayes. Whether Mr. Fadden had any knowledge of what I am about to relate The electoral registrar mentioned in the or not I cannot say, but I know that his section is the registrar for the district in campaign supporters in the Ingham itistrict which he lives and in respect of which he went round to these Italians and said, '· Do makes claim for enrolment. That appl~es to you want to vote for Hayes~'' anu the any part of the State. If he delivers his Italians said, ''Yes, I want to vote for Mr. card to the electoral officer, by post or other­ Hayes.'' When the Fadden supporter said wise, and the electmal offic·er acknowledges "Well, if you want to vote for Mr. Hayes receipt of it the elector is entitled to vote give Mr. Hayes bra Yotes and give Fadden only one and you can do that by voting two The hon. member for West :vi:oreton, I for Hayes and only one for Artie Fad den.'' think bv way of interjection, asked whether That meant that Hayes got the No. 2 vote the person against whom objection to enrol­ and Padden got the No. 1 vote. I do not ment is lodged has any means of discovering know whether Mr. Fadden had any knowledge who is objecting to his emolmen t. I should of that or not but he just won thE' election by like to explain to the hon. member that if an a mere majority of 80 or 90. That racket objection is made to the enrolment of any was fairly extensively practised in the person notice of such objection is sent to th:o>.t Ingham district during that election cam­ person and with it a statement as to why paign. objection is being made to his being on tl1e roll. Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich­ That is done in every case? Attorney-Generrrl) (12.12 p.m.): It was l\Ir. Pie: pointed out by one hon. member that if a l\Ir. GLEDSON: Yes, that is done in person had lodged a \':ud for enrolment and eYery case. was not placed on the electoral TOll he was not allowed to exercisB a Yote but I want to At 12.15 p.m. tell him that if a person lodges such a card and is not enrolled he can claim a vote under MR. DEVRIES (Grcgory) r<'lieved the Section 35A of the Elections Act, which Chairman in the chair. says- Mr. GLEDSON: In every case where '' Notwithstanding anything contained in objection is lodged to an application for this Act, when any person who is entitled enrolment notice is sent to the applicant and to be enrolled on the roll for a district in it the reasons of the objection are stated. claims to vote at an ·election and ltis name If the applicant replies and states that the has been ami tted or erased from the certi­ objections arc not correct he is enrolled. fied roll of the 1n·evious general E'lection, or from any subsequent quart·erly or Mr. Pie: What if he is wrongfully taken supplementary roll, or from the certified off the roll? roll for the election in respect of which the person claims to Yote under this section, Mr. GLEDSON: If he is wrongfully owing to an error of the principal electoral taken off the roll he is reinstated. If either officer or officer of his department or other as a result of the police canvass or for some error, or in consequence of mistaken other reason an eleetor is reported to have left identity or otherwise, and through no fault the district, or to have changed his or her of the person himself such person may, name, or to have enrolled for another elcc- Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 841 toratc, that is stated on the notice sent to the in regard to the action of a person person objected to before the name is remoYed nlreatly on the roll; he can vote at six booths from the roll. and, maybe, at all the booths in the elec­ torate. When it is found that ]1eople have Mr. PIE (Windsor) (12.16 p.m.): The voted twice there are very few prosecutions, AttOTney-General, from my point of view, the reason being that it is left to the success­ made an astounding statement in the course ful candidate or the defeated candidate to of this debate, that is, that throughout Queens­ prosecnte. I believe the Govenunent should land there was an average movem.:ont of prosecnte as a deterrent. enrolled persons of 30 per cent. We, are entitled to get further details on this matter I believe the wages of poll clerks have bec'n from the Attorney-General. In my own elec­ brought before the Goyernment. They are not torate there is not a 30-per-cent. movement in recei\·ing the remuneration that is their due. the population. It is practically impossible Imagine those men working 12, J4 and 16 that one-third of the electors either move in hours for a miserable £1, and the higher or out of an electorate in the course of a vea1·. officeTs 30s.! It is the department's dnty Do you think, Mr. Devries, that wonlil be to see that the salary of these poll cleTks is nt least £2 a day. possible in the Gregory electorate~ There r.re 12,000-odd electors in 'Windsor and I The hon. membeT for 1\-Iundingburra made a know that 3,500 of them do not move in or statement about the time when Mr. Fadclen out of my electorate in a year. was contesting Kennedy against Mr. Hayes )!r. Hayes: But they move about the ancl we hacl pTeferential voting. I believe electorate. that he· has put up a good case for ''How to Vote'' cards. I do not use them, but I have ::ur. PIE: I think there is something no objection to their use by others. When it wrong in the statement. 1 do not think that comes to a eonfused election like the recent percentage of movement is right. It would Federal election I should say that at least mean that on an avemge 15 per cent. of the 10 per cent. of the people re.quire ''How to electors moye into the electorate and 15 per Vote" cards. I admit that it is not so con­ ccnt. move out. There is something wrong fnsing ns it was, be-cause preferential voting with that figure and I should like the has been abolished in the State elections, but Attomev-General to check it and give us some at the last Federal elcetion 10 per cent. of the further· information. ~ people needed ''How to Vote,'' cards. There may be some abuse of the system by people I am very grateful to the hon. gentleman who hand them ont at the gate and this could for the way he received the suggestion made he policed more in order to make sure there to him by us that there should be uniform is no abuse. I do not believe, however, that rolls throughout the State and Commonwealth. it is abused to a great extent. Again and again I have seen people on elec­ tion day apply for a vote and say, ''I am on I again thank the officCTs of the department the State roll and I must be on the Federal for what they have done. roll,'' and vice versa. Every member of Parliament has had that experience. The Mr. KER.R. (Oxley) (12.23 p.m.) : I sup­ quicker we get that information the better. pOTt the very good suggestion made by the Uniformity of rolls should apply to local hon. member for Bundaberg. nuthorities also. Today we find that a vote is accepted if you lUr. L. J. BAR.NES (Cairns) (12.19 use the stroke '' 1'' or the ''X.'' A good p.m.) : I wish to congratulate the officers of deal of confusion arises by virtue of the fn et the Electoral Office. I am not one of those that is a legal vote. They can either vote of evil mind. I acquire that philosophy from ''X'' for the candidate thev want or '' 1. '' Alexis Carrell who stated that a Government Very often you find them voting '' 1'' for the may thrust legality on their people but they candidate they want and ''X'' for the can­ cannot enforce morality. I believe that most didate they do not want, thereby making the people are honest. I believe also that there vote informal. There is the clear-en t issue are certain anomalies, for no other reason and it is necessary to clarify the position, and than you cannot enforc-e morality. I malw to make it either the figure '' 1'' or the this suggestion to the department and the letter ''X.'' Much confusion would be saved Attorney-General, that when there is evidence if something like that was done. to prove that an elector has voted twice the responsibility for prosecuting should be on J look upon the Principal Electoral Officer the Govcrnme11t. It should not be the duty as the man who administers the Electoral Act. of a defeated candidate or the candidate wh'o No doubt, by virtue of the position he holds, has been elected. The Government should a good deal of caustic eomment can be hnrled JWOsecute so that others will be deterred from at him. I understand his duties to amount repeating the offence. In this way there will to these: he is the recording clerk of all the be a lesser number of such offend-ers at electors of Qurenslanc1, and he gathers his futnre elections. information from various sourees. He wonld get inf01·mation from the Registrar of Deatll~, The hon. member for \Vindsor macle the statement that for a house where onlv thr •e nnd he probnbl;· 11ses the police to the greatest veople an: living tl1e roll may inrlica'te that possible extent in gathering information for five·, six, or even ten are enrolled. There is the completion of the roll. a possibility that those enrolled are actuated At 12.2-t p.m., by an evil motive, probably the desire to vote under assumed names. It is something similar The CHAIRMAN resumed tl1e chaiT. 842 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

-Mr. KERR: I have had one or two have oceurred in which someone has objected experiences in my electorate where there >~as that another person had left a particular a certain amount of casualness i11 enforcing locality for a considerable period and his name proof of residence but my rolls have been should have heen erased. J;'rom inquiries made particularly clear and I have no personal at the Electoral Office I have always found complaint. the information obtainable. There has been In several instances I found that when the no hesitation on the part of the staff to give police visited a certain house the occupant it. I have always got the fullest information. was away. He might be away for :a month The point I had in mind when I rose to or even two months but the next thing we speak was that when new residents come to a discovered was that his name was removed district the postman leaves an electoral card from the roll. It is quite easy for the police to be completed by them. to exercise a little more care in certain respects. I do not make this a general charge, JUr. Pie: That is not done with regard but such incidents have happened. They are to the State roll. a little casual and if greater care was exer­ cised in this regard we should have probably 3Ir. HAYES: No, it is for Federal enrol­ fewer complaints on polling day. n;ent, but I think that it often happens that those people, having completed an application .i)fr. HAYES (Nundah) (12.26 p.m.): The eard for .l''ederal pmposes, believe that their Attorney-General this lll'Orning gave the Com­ names ·will be placed on the State roll also. mittee an explanation concerning the extent As we know, however, a separate application of movement of the electors. I think the hon. must be made for State enrolment, and it is gentleman explained the matter very clearly because of this erroneous belief that many but apparently hon. members opposite have people find that they are not enrolled for not understood just what movement means. State elections. Again, we have relied on the A movement of 30 per cent. was mentioned. police to check our State rolls from time to When the hon. member for Windsor was time. As we all know, the police have had speaking I pointed out that movement did not a tremendous number of extra duties to per­ mean necessarily people moving from one elec­ form, particulal'!y during the war years when torate to another. A nulll'ber of people are man-power was short, and errors could have living in rented homes or rooms and move­ occurred in that way. Prior to the last ment means, not necessarily that they move, election, the checking of the rolls was done we will say, from the Nundah electorate to rather hurriedly. Man-power was short, and the Windsor electorate but to some other part extra police were sent out from Roma Street of the same electorate. to help the outside men on this 1vork, and Mr. Pie: That would not affect the roll mistakes could have occurred then. at all. Prior to the 1932 election, the Moorc Mr. HA YES: It would, as it means a Government had so emasculated the Elections change of address. And naturally that is Act as to disfranchise certain people. movement. Nomadic workers were deprived of their right to vote. Again, they abolished 10 electorates, Mr. J. F. Barnes: Don't try to apologise. taking care that seven of those were safe .i)lr. HA YES: You were unconscious most Labour seats, while only three were repre­ of the time. sented by them. I know that if it had not been for the work that I did, with the help of As regards movement in the Nund:ah elec­ my supporters, 600 people in the Nundah torate for the first six months of this year electorate would have been disfranchised. In I will give certain particulars. 'rhe number a short time we were responsible for having of electors on the electoral roll for N undah is 13,095. New entries during that period 600 electors placed on the roll. Since their retmn to office, the Labour Government have were 2,400 and erasures 1,361. restored to the individual his right to vote. Mr. Pie: They went out. Ther have rectified the anomalies in the Act, with the result that today no-one has cause llir. HAYES: That is the movement that for complaint either about the Act or the roll. was mentioned by the Attorney-General. It is not generally understood what movement I trust that when the next check of the rolls 1ncans. is made by the police we shall not see the .:n:r. Pie: Double that for the year. hurry-scurry we experienced last time, but that the Attorney-General will make all .i)lr. HAYES: I do not know how the anangements in ample time to permit of a hon. member can s,ay how many people die in proper check. I hope too that if an officer three years, and how many will move in and should call at a house when the occupier is out of an electorate or even move to another not at home, he will not merely say that the address in the same electorate. Undoubtedly person concerned no longer lives there, but there have been some stupid remarks by mem­ that he will have long enough to make his bers of the Opposition but I think the thing eheck to enable him to visit that residence is as plain as a pikest:aff. Apparently the again later. If a call is made and the people one desire of certain members of the Opposi­ who normallv live there are absent the matter tion is to try to find a nigger in the woodpile. is not simply left at that. Every effort is On polling day, whether Federal or State, made to see that every pers.on entitled to a there are always people who say that their \'Otc has that vote by his name being on a names should be on the electoral roll. Instances roll. Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 843

Jir. GltAHAlU (Mackay) (12.36 p.m.): I their second choice. l should like to ·tell the think it will be admitted, notwithstanding the hon. member for Mundingbuna that I have many anomalies that are said to exist, that been successful in all my election campaigns fe\Y people throughout the Commonwealth fail without the use of scrutineers, ''How to vote'' to exercise a vote on polling day. I believe ('ards, booth tables or committees-not m-en that the fact that we have both State and a chairman, a treasm·e1· or a secretary. 1 £'edeml Tolls is one of the reasons why some have done without the whole lot and at least people are denied the right to vote. Many I can say what the position is when it romes people, some perhaps through ignorance, do to voting day. not realise that it is necessary or that the onus is on them to see that their names are lUr. Aikens: You might have been more on both the State and Federal rolls. We find successful if you had had thtenL that many people have their names on the State roll but not on the Federal roll, and Mr. J. :F. BARNES: Perhaps so. vice versa. I suggest that consideration be ::lir. Aikens: This may have been a given to a slight aitera tion on the wording of handicap, which you \Yere voluntarily cany­ the claim-for-enrolment cards. I have a letter ing. before me from one of the presiding officers nt Mr. J. F. BARNES: Wait until I come the recent Fedeml election in which he makes to my point. The hon. member said that the suggestion that on the eard it should be !J5 per cent. of the people knew how they stated that the particulars required are for would vote before going to the polling booth. State rolls only, when application is I differ from him an cl say that 99 per cent. being made for inclusion on the State would lmow. l'Olls, ancl for Commonwealth rolls only when it is for Federal purposes. I believe Mr. AIKENS: I rise to a point of order, that would show the elector that although and it is important. I said that 95 per cent. he had filled in a card for the Common­ of the people knew for whom they were going wealth it is necessary that he should fill to vote before they went to the polling booth in a card for the State and vice versa. and that they took ''How to vote'' carc1s so I found during the recent eleetions that there as to be sure that they would vote in the were many electors whose names were on the right >nlJ for the candidate of their choice. State roll but not on the Federal roll. They said that they filled in cards for State regis­ llir. J. F. BARNES: That is my view too. tration and they naturally thought their names The hon. member said that 95 per cent. of would appear on the Commonwealth roll. IV e the people knew how they were going to vote before they went to the polling booths and found also that many soldiers voted at the recent Federal elertions when their names they took the ''How to vote'' cards to pre­ did not appear on the State roll. I know that vent them from making a mistake in voting. the Minister can concern himself with the I say today that 99 per cent. of the people State rolls only but I suggest that my know how they will vote. In the old days 99 suggestion be placed before the Common­ per cent. of the people took voting cards so wealth Electoral Office. It would enable an as to make sure that they voted in the right elector to seo that he had a further responsi­ way. Today 99 per cent. of the people go to bility of filling in an application card either the polling booth knowing for whom they are for Stn te purposes or Federal purposes. going to vote and take a ' 'How to vote' ' card irrespective of party but only 1 per lUr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (12.39 cent. of the people require a ''How to vote'' p.m.): I am disappointed as usual-no card to help them record their vote propmly. Minister ever replies to me. Is it because he For that reason I did not think that ''How cannot reply or that he will not~ I always to vote'' cards were necessarv. I did not bring in documentary evidence with the result think it was necessary to hive ''How to that he is left without a reply. He cannot vote'' caTds just for 1 per cent. of the reply. I will try to force the issue. Seeing people·, and by not having them I effected a that he did reply to this matter three years saving of time and \vony. ago I ask the Minister to reply to a statement made by me three years ago and again this I made the statement-and it aprJie,; par­ morning, that the Bundaberg paper refuses to ticularly to Labour scrutineers-that ''How nllow me to put advertisements in it. I say to vote'' cards are forced on the electors. that that is undemocratic and wrong in I did not mean that they did it in the case principle and the Minister has power to alter of every elector but it is done I should say, that state of affairs. He told me three years in about 5 per cent. of the cases. Even if ago that hEl would go into the matter but it is done in the case of only 1 per cent. there nothing has been done about it since. is no reason why these people should be assaulted by scrutineers outside the electoral I made another complaint three ~·ears ngo booth. I have seen that done time and time to \vhich he did not reply. One of thf' old­ again. They snap the ''How to vote'' card age pensioners in Bundaberg was forced to out of the hands of an elector ancl thrust vote as an absentee; he \Yas made to commit their own card into his hand, believing tlwt a crime. 'l'he Attorney-General has done the elector has not the ability to vote the nothin;:: about it nor has he replied. I ask w~v in which he desire~ to \'Ote. They thrust him tn clo so. the.ir own card into his hand in tlie belief I regret that preferential voting has gone that he will vote according to that card. An out but I trust that the people \Vill get that examplG should be made of th~ 1.e serutineers right hack. They should have the right to who assault people outside the electoral ,-ote for whom they want as well as exercise booths. 844 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich-Attor­ question like any other hon. member I will ney-General) (12.43 p.m.): The hon. member reply to him or any hon. member who-- for Nundah referred to some rather important matters and so did the hon. member for Isis. Mr. J. F. Barnes: You are talking The first was in reference to the police cam·ass. through your neck. A good many duties are imposed upon tlw The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! police but efforts will be made to give them as much time as possible to canvass for the Mr. J. F. Barnes: You are talking electoral rolls at the end of the year or thl' through your neck and you know it. beginning of the year so that the supple· mentary rolls will be as complete as possible. The TElUPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! lUr. GLEDSON: When the hon. member Reference was made to the adoption of a talks about judges and magistrates being uniform electoral card for State and Federal bought over-- purposes. The matter was taken up with the Commonwealth authorities some time ago but )lr. J. F. Barnes: That is not the point. there are certain difficulies in the way. For instance, the State Electoral Office has an 'l'he TEli'IPO RARY CHAIRMAN: Order! index of all the cards of applica.tion for State purposes containing all the signatures .iUr. J. F. Barne,s: You are the one that of the applicants and the Commonwealth makes them crook Electoral Office has its index system for its The TE.iUPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! own purpose. Those circumstances present T ask the hon. member to allow the Attorney­ a difficulty in the adoption of a uniform card General to make his speech. He had an system and it is one that cannot be 0asiJy opportunity to make his own speech and I OYercome. I have suggested that we take the ask him to be decent enough to allow the matter up again with the Commonwealth Attorney-General to make his speech. authorities. The difficulty could be overcome by having a double card printed, instead of a llir. GLEDSON: Mr. Devries-- single card, with the middle perforater1, and after the applicant had filled in and signed lUr. J. F. Barnes: You dirty thing, you each card the State or Federal Electoral Office, cannot reply to it. as the case might be, could forward to the The TE.lliPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! other the part of tllE' card affecting it. It would only mean that the applicant would hr ~Ir. J. F. llarnes (walking out of compelled to Bign the application twice. Chamber) : Time for a Capstan.

lUr. Aikens: At present a person desir­ lUr. GLEDSON: The Principal Electoral ous of becoming enrolled has after signing an Officer has reported to me- application form at the State Electoral Office '' I have checked with the Records Room, to go to the other encl of the town half a mile Department of J usticc. The Returning away to sign an application to become Officer, Bundaberg, did not report to me enrolled for the Commonwealth. anything in the nature of the statement made by Mr. Barnes regarding postal votes Mr. GLEDSON: If we can introduce a at the last general election in the electoral double card perforated in the middle as I district of Bundaberg.'' suggested, we can get over the difficulty. Wrc He has made that report to me. Neither was have an index card that is used in the case any report made that any perEon who desired of any complaint of illegal voting. The to exercise a postal vote had been prevented Elections Tribunal is thus able to call for anv from doing so. Under the Act such a person e1mllenged vote and baye it prompt!~, pro­ has a right to vote as he wishes without any duced. interference in the exercise of his vote. If any such interference had taken place and Mr. Wanstall: Could you not distribute the matter had been reported to the district those cards at each centre~ electoral officer, he would have had power to deal with it. Mr. GLEDSON: If we could get the Com­ monwealth to agree that one card could be The same thing applies to the giving out distributed by the electoral officers to the of cm·ds at the polling booth. I Temember police or post office as the case may be, or being in Townsville on one occasion during to the electoral office, or the applicant. That the municipal election. I saw a gentleman suggestion will be inve~tigated by the Prin­ walking ronnel with cards, and smiling at cipal Electoral Officer. If we can obtain the everybody and saying, ''Have you a card: co-operation of the Commonwealth that will Take mine, too.'' I was introduced then to he done. the hon. member for Mundingburra, who also was handing out carcls, just as is done in The hon. member for Bundaberg seems to every electorate. They come along and assume that because I did not Teply to him hand out their cards and if the voter does that I did not like to do so. He makes all not >vant the card he does not take it. sorts of statements that personE arc nooks Most people, as the hon. member for or rogues. I do not think anyone in this :\Iundingburra says, take the cards from everybody and vote as they desire. If the Committee, certainly no-one outside it, statement made here is correct, 'that people believes the statements made by the hon. have cards snatched out of their hands and member. When he is able to approach a others put into their hanils, well, that is a Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 845 breach of the Act and it should be reported of official valuer of friendly societies. The to the returning officer. No person ha~ the work was undertaken previously by a part­ right to interfere with anyone. time officer with remuneration at £250 pm· annun1. ]}fr. Aikens: There is a policeman at nery booth. They can complain to him. Vote agreed to. illr. GLEDSON: Either to the policeman or the returning officer. If I saw a person LICENSING COMJ\Ilt>SIOK. snatching cards out of the hands of my voters I should make> a complaint. Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich- Attorney-General) (12.55 p.m.): I move- lUr. Wanstall: How do you know your '' That £5,973 be granted for 'Licensing Yoters? Commission.' '' m:r. GLEDSON: I know them all. (Oppo­ The amount required for the current year is sition laughter.) £527 in excess of last year's actual expendi­ The hon. member for Enoggcra ought to ture. Two officers have returned from war ser­ know that pretty well. All the members of vice, necessitating a,dditional expenditure the Queensland People's PaTty, except the amounting to £412 on salaries. The increased leader, were up in the Bremer electorate at provision for contingencies is £115. that by-election, and they wanted to know Mr. BRAND (Isis) (12.56 p.m.): I shall how I knew the voters. I said I knew them. be glad to he,ar from the Attorney-General ~Ir. Pie: You did not authorise your whether it is proposed by the Licensing Com­ election litera turP, mis~ion to issue licences to clubs. I under­ stand that the Commission recognises that the lUr. GLEDSON: That was all author­ time has arrived when they should be granted. ised. The next thing was that they asked Throughout Queensland numbers of returned me on election morning how many votes we soldieTs' clubs are being established. were going to get and I told them that "lYe should get a majority of over 2,000, and the Hon. n. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich- results showed I \l·as only a couple of Attorney-General) (12.57 p.m.): Before club hundred out. I met the hon. member for licences could be granted an amendment of '£oowong many times; he and I were on the the Act would be necessary. one job going round to the different booths with light refreshments for the people. ~Ir. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (2.15 There ::tTe provisions in the Act to keep p.m.) : Being a controller of licensing, the the election clean, and anybody who has a Licensing Commission more- or less has complaint that anybody has been inteTfered control of tourist traffic. In Queensland we with at the booth should report the matter have in our Barrier Re,ef an asset equal in to the returning officer or the police officer, value to our wool clip, but unless that asset who will take action. is properly developed with suitable accom­ modation it will be of no Yalue whatever. Mr. J, 1<'. BARNES (Bundaberg) (12.53 Before granting a licilnce to any hotel on the p.m.) : Fortunately, I have five minutes left Barrier R.eef islands the Licensing Commis­ in which to reply. As to the election I was sion should see to it that the proposed hotel speaking about, I made a complaint before is of the standard required to cater for they started to count the votes so that if it international traffic. When the tide goes out should be a close call I could contest those at any of tlw'e Reef islands there is no water particular votes. That report can be got within the, immediate vicinity, the nearest being from the returning officer, Mr. Grenier, who anything from 100 to 500 yards from the shore, has since been transferred. I made the and it would he suicide to attempt to swim complaint before they started to count the in the water on the outside of the Reef for vote,_ I knew of people who had voted for it drops immediately to a depth of from 20 me and I knew their Yotes were discarded to 30 feet at that spot. If the tide is out because they ·were not witnessed. There was first thing in the morning none of th-a 111!" complaint and confinnation of it. Let holiday-makers can swim. I am speaking the Attorney-General bring the evidence now of all the Reef islands with which I am forward and prove me to be a liar, or it will acquainted. There may be some that I do prow him to be a dill and me to be truthfuL not know at which it is possible to swim Y ote (Electoral Registration) agreed to. >Yhen the tide is out. :lir. Wanstall: You can always get a FRIENDLY SOCIETIES. swim at H'eron. Hon. n. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich­ lUr. J. F. BARNES: Yes, if one is satis­ A ttom0y -Genenll) (12.54 p.m.): I move- fied to swim in four inches of water whe-n ''That £2,591 be granted for 'Friendly the tide is out. "'f y point is that befOTe Sotil•tiPs-.' '' granting licences for hotels the I.. icensing Commission should compel applicants to The total amount required is £353 more construct swimming pools so that patrons may than last year's expenditure, being an swim at any time of the day, irrespective increas0 of £490 in salaries, due to the payment of the usual increases, and a redur­ of the state of the tide. tion of £137 in contingencies. This decrease The accommodation on these Reef islands is explained by the appointment of a Govern­ is primitive. As I have said in this Chamber ment actuary who will undertake the duties during the last six years, in order to enjoy 846 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

the domestic comforts available at the moment water into fresh water-100 per cent pme one would need to be about 18 years of age fresh water-but its by-products woU:ld be and have a girl wink at him for the :first valuable. However, that is another matter. time a'nd then you would not notice the discomforts. If we are to attract inter­ If the tourist trade in the Barrier Reef is national tourists it is essential that we to go ,:;~ead H is necessa~·y .fo~ somebody to provide suitable accommodation. have v1s1~n. Of course,. 1! IS Impossible for There are various ideas about accommoda­ me to thmk of the Mmister concerned as tion on the islands. The twin-bed shack sys­ having vision; nor can I think of the Govern­ ment as having vision but 'the Government tem. has been su~geste~, that is, a syst;;m of ha-:'mg shacks With twm beds septic system might have sufficient knowledge to take advan­ wash-basin, and shower atta'ched. When 1 tage ~f what I have said and ta]l:e the matter spe~k of a septic system I mean something up w1th somebody who they 'think might eqmvalent to It, be~ause the ordinary septic kno.":. . If these islands are given the water s;rstem as we know 1t would be almost impos­ facilities they badly need they will return to Sible there through lack of water. Water Q?eensland the equivalent in value of the wool eould be provided, however, by eliminating chp. I have been saying this for years. The the salt from the sea water. :fir~t person other than myself who brought this mattar up was the Prime Minister at The most important point to be consideTed a parliamentary dinner here recently and the if we aTe to develop the tourist tmffic is the second person was the hon. member for supply of fresh water. Those Barrier R~ef Kennedy, who brought it up on a Private islands are totally different from the ordinary Members' Day on a motion on which l:lnd island surrounded by reefs. There are I wanted to speak. I was allowed only five many la'nd islands in the Whitsunday minutes-and then the motion was sabotaged. Passage, but on the coral islands of Whether you like Frank Barnes or not the Barrier Reef water is the main you can take his word that what h~ problem. The Royal Geographical Society is saying will come true. I mean what bored to a depth of 800 feet on Heron Island I say; this is going to come true. If and was still going through coral at that you have not ·the vision to take advantage depth. The only possible means of obtaining of the asset that the Barrier Reef is to fresh water there is to catch the rain water. Queensland somebody else will take advan­ If we are to provide fresh watEor by that tage of it and turn the Barrier Reef into means for about 100 people it wm be neces­ the equivalent in value of the wool clip of sary to have a catchment capable of catching Queensland. and storing 200,000 gallons. If we do not the ac.commodation houses would be forced to _clo.se sometimes on account of drought. Mr. AIKE'NS (Mundingburra) (2.25 Tlns IS where the Gov-ernment could come p.m.): I want to enlarge slightly on the into the picture, seeing that water will r~mar~s I made. t~e other night about the Lwensmg c.m:nmiSSIOn, particularly in regard always be a difficulty and eve-n with the to the cond1twn of the hotels at Townsville. catchme-nt system you will still be restricted With~n the last week or two a Queensland as to the water you could use. Tounst Development Conm:rittee visited Mr. Ai:kens: Could you not put up a Townsville and met quite a number of repre­ fair-sized distillation plant~ sentative citizens appointed as a result of a meeting called by the Townsville City Mr. J. F. BARNES: We should take Council, that very progressive body which advantage of nature. There has been in a}ways takes the lead in pushing ahead the operation since 1908 a plant called the sun­ viTtU'eS of the districts round it. vaporisation parabolic mirror-radiation plant. The one I know of consists of a concave mirror, An Opposition Member: Who is mayor 14 f<:et across, 40 feet long with a foot pipe of the Townsville City Council~ runnmg through the centre. The sun's rays reflect on the same point continuously. They heat the vapour going through the pipe and a:t . Mr. :UKENS :. TP,e mayor of the Towns­ vil~e C1ty Council IS Mr. J. S. Gill, a very the same time it is drawn out of a tank which estimable gentleman. During the discussion in the device I am speaking of is filled natur­ ~hat took place between the Queensland Tom­ ally by the tides. The tide comes into a con­ Ist Development Committee and the committee crete tank, on top of which is an ordinary plate­ appointed by the public meeting called by the glass surface. The sun shining on this surface To~nsville. ~ity Council, Mr. Butler, a very sets up vaporisation. Suction created by an emment Citizen o.f Townsville, pointed out electric motor sucks the vapour ont of the that many hotels m Townsville were not vet tank and in its passage the it sewere~- ~ men;ber of the Tourist Develop­ is converted into steam. H is ment Committee 1s Mr. Byrne, himself secre­ by the salt water in by the tary and member of the Licensing Commis­ The is the of the motors sion, and in reply to the statement by Mr. to pump the water and to suck the Butler, Mr. Byrne made a remarkable state- out of the and that could be by a but I do not Tecom- as reported in the Townsville '' ment it because it is too noisy. The cost of '' whose report can be taken as true and as correct. 'This is a motor such as with the Mr. Byrne is reported to have said- would be small. '' There was ia surplus of licences in could help in Townsville at the present time and if any­ fresh water on our BanieT Reef thing, there should be a red~ctio~ rather plant I speak of would not only turn sea than an increas<'. Many hotels were so Supply. (22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 847

grouped that they were not effectively used. for me is the Criterion Hotel on the Strand. It would, he thought, be necessary to The remarks :are- ecnlarge hotels which were on the best sites. '' Temporary connection to sewer of first Whether this could be done, in view of the floor level W.Cs. pending the confirming housing priority, and also the priority for with Licensing Commission's require­ the erection of industrial concerns, such as ments.'' the proposed cannery at Townsville, was another matter. The trend in Townsville 'rhe remarks by the commission are­ was to reduce rather than to increase " Full order in preparation." licences. If there was a demand for accom­ The hotel next listed is Tattersalls in modation by tourists, surely there would Flinders Street. The remarks of the owner be private enterprise sufficiently courageous are- to go ahead with any necessary building pnJgr,amme.'' '' Full order in preparation.'' The next on the list is Buchanan 's Hotel What a remarkable statement! I have been situated in Sturt Street. The remarks on it in Townsville for something like 17 years and are- in that time the population of Townsville '' Tempor,ary connection pending the con­ has increased considerably, and to my know­ forming with Licensing Commission's ledge there :are four fewer hotels in Towns­ requirements.'' vl'lle now than 17 years ago. I take it that :Mr. Byrne was speaking on behalf of the 'l'here again the remarks of the commission commission and he intimated that so far as it are- was concerned the number of licences in '' Full order in pr,eparation.'' Townsville should be still further reduced so Mr. Aikens: Buchanan's has the dirty that the liquor monopoly might be concen­ old pan system in the back yard. What liar trated in a group of hotels at the most suit­ drew up that list for you~ able sites. And I take it that ''the most suitable sites'' in :Mr. Byrne 's opinion would The CHAIRMAN: Order! be not the most suitable, sites from the worker's viewpoint of moderate accommoda­ Mr. GLEDSON: The Central Hotel in tion at moder:ate rates, or where they would Flinders Street is owned by the Townsville want a couple of pots of beer after knock­ City Council. The remarks are- ing off work, but the most suitable sites from '' Temporary connection pending pro­ the viewpoint of the big monopolistic posed building alteration.'' breweries. What a statem

The Newmarket Hotel is situated in The remarks by the commission are­ Flinders Street. It is stated- '' Full order in preparation.'' " Not connected to council sewer. Exist­ The remarks conceming the National Hotel ing sBptic tank in use.'' are- The remarks by the commission are- '' Not connected to council sBwer. Exist­ ing sanitary conveniences in use.'' '' Sketch plans rebuilding proposal to 'l'he remarks of the commission are- hand 14-10-46.'' '' Full order in preparation.'' The remarks in connection with the Railway As regards the Victoria Park Hotel, the Hotel in Flinders Street are- remarks are- '' Not conneded to council sewer. Exist­ '' First-floor level conveniences ancl all ing sanitary conveniences in use (pan waste pipes connected. Public conveniences system).'' still on sanitary service.'' 'rhe remarks by the commission are­ 'rhe remarks by the commission are­ '' Full order in preparation.'' '' Full order in preparation.'' The remarks in connection with the Mans­ The last hotel is the Royal Oak. 'rhe field Hotel in Flinders Street .are- remarks concerning it are- '' Not connected to council sewer. Exist­ "Not connected to council sewer. Exist­ ing sanitary conveniences in nse (pan ing sanitary convenience in use.'' system).'' The remarks by the commission are- The remarks by the commission are- '' Full order in preparation.'' '' Order served 3-6-46. Sketch plans I want to go further and quote from a under review.'' letter sent to the secretary of the Licensing Commission by the manager of one of the The remarks concerning the Sovereign hotels in Townsville conceming the sewerage Hotel are- installation. Firstly, he acknowledges having ''Not connected to council sewer. Exist­ received our letter asking that the matter ing sanitary conveniences in nse ( pan be attended to, and then proceeds in these system).'' words- The remarks by the commission are­ '' 'l'his morning the writer, in comp,any with the licensing inspector and Inspecto1· '' Full order in preparation.'' Lowes, conferred regarding the above. 'l'he remarks concerning the Carriers' Arms ''When Messrs. Wilson and Byrne were Hotel are- here, the pr,emises were inspected and it '' Not connected to council sewer. Exist­ IYas tentatively agreed that the best site ing sanitary conveniences in use (pan for the men's lavatory block was adjacent systDm).'' to the bar, in a room which was previously occupied as .an office, but was at that time The remarks by the commission are- used as a storeroom. For the female '' Application before Bureau of Industry guests of the lounge it was suggested thrrt for permit to perform renovations includ­ portion of thB storeroom be partitioned oif ing bathing and sanitary conveniences.'' and the necessary conveniences pro,·idccl The West End Hotel is next. The remarks there.'' there are- This is the pertinent paragraph- ''First-floor level conveniences and all '' Following the conference, we today waste pipes connected.'' discussed the matter fully with the Officer The remarks by the commission are­ in Charge, Bureau of Industry, Townsville, and he stated that towards the end of '' Full order jn preparation.'' last week he received definite instructions The remarks concerning the Royal Hotel from his office in Brisbane, that the only are- occasion on which a pmmit would be " First-floor level W.Cs. only connected. granted for work to be carried out at Waste pipes not connected and public con­ licensed premises was where the condition veniences still on sanitary.'' of the building was such that it would endanger lives.'' The remarks by the commission are­ That applies to them all. That instruc­ '' Full order in preparation.'' tion has been given to those licensees, and The remarks concerning the Victoria Bridge the council I take it, in the same way as Hotel are- permission had to be obtained to carry on work while the housing shortage wns so great. '' First-floor level convenience and all waste pipes connected. Public convenienc€s :ftir. Aikens: The sewerage mains were still on sanitary service.'' there eight years-befor0 the Housing Com­ mission was set up. Concerning the Commonwealth, the remarks are- Jir. GLEDSON: The sewerage arrange­ '' First-floor level IV.Cs. connected. ments were all in the course of preparation ·waste pipes not connected. One yard con­ at the outbreak of the war. The s'ewerage venience connectDCl to sewer used by both -was just in operation, but as soon as the sexes.'' ,.-ar st:1Ttcc1 there \vas no opportunity of Supply. [22 OcTOBER.) Supply. 849 uoing this work, because the people in lUr. J. }'. BARNES: The three hotels in Townsville and Mundingburra and all over East Bundaberg are the National, the East the State devoted all their energies to the End and the Prince of Wales. The Prince winning of the war. These other things had of Wales is really the most centrally situated to stand over. Since that time the people of but the building is in a terrible state. Being the State, the people of Townsvill.e an.d central it could remain but it should be 11undingburra included, have been anxiOus to forced' to put up a new building. Of the get house& to live in before they un~ertook other two the National should go out and any great expenditure on public buildmgs m the building of the third condemned and thl' the shape of hotel premises. owners made to rebuild. Mr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (2.36 In North Bundaberg we have the Young p.m.): I do not usually find myself in agree­ Australian, the Mulgrave, the Globe, and the ment with the Licensing Commission-I haw RaihYay Hotels. The two hotels that should from time to time exposed its lack of know­ remain are the Railway and the Young Aus­ ledge of how to cany on the job-but on tralian, because they serve the people. The this occasion I rise to support the Commission Railway should be rebuilt. in respect of the statement made by the h011. member for J'.Iundingburra, who said that it In South Bundaberg, out of. the main area. was going to retluce licences there. I do not there are four hotels. The Imperial Hotel say that I cv.n agree with it in regard to is near the main street, the others being the Townsville, because I do not know the condi­ Gympie, the Melbourne and Tattersalls. 'l'he tions in that city, but in general I agTee Imperial Hotel is so situa,ted to ihe main with that statement. As a bmwny traYcller street that it could remain as a principal for four years, as a publican for several hoteL The Gympie Hotel, being between years, and as a conunercial traveller for 13 two other hotels, serves no purpose and years, I Lave had considerable experience of should go. But as I said before if these hotels hotels. I found there were too many small are taken full compensation should be paid. hotels in Queensland that had to depend for li'Ir. l'arrell: By whom? a living on running their houses as gambling Mr. J. F. BARNES: By the Licensing houses or semi-houses of ill-fame. They had Commission and the people who gain by it. to trede all night in order to make ends.meet. It is high time that hotels with a licence fee Mr. Fan·ell: By the people of Bunda­ under a certain amount-in my day £25; berg~ today I cannot tell becausG the licence fee li'Ir. J •.F. BARNES: Not necessarily by has gone up because the excise duty has gone the people of Bundaberg. They should be up-should be closed by the Commission. fully compensated for by the people who Hotels with fees under £25 should be closed gain by it. Privately I put a proposal for­ up, with the exception of hotels in special cii·­ ward in .l'\orth Bundaberg for two particular cumstances. For instance, at Lota there may hotels to be taken out and the other hotels be only one hotel, and the licence fee may be to compensate them, but that was defeated. about £20, but as the people have to have At the same time the whole of Queensland licence there thev \YOuld be allo,wil to c 11'1" would get an advantage by such an arrange­ on. But in pr~vincial towns like Gympie ment. Good hotels are an asset and every­ Maryborough and Bundaberg, a licensee who body should share in that asset. vVhen a. is not paying £.25 should be closed np. hotel pays the equivalent of a licence fee, A big percentage of these small places which was under £25 six years ago OT more. run their houses as semi-houses of ill-fame the result is that t hP beer and the lager or gambling dens or some other thing. That served to customers is either hot or flat. is the only possible way they can survive. 'l'hey must be flat. They cannot afford ·to I know in one hotel the landlord had a serve fresh and cold beer all the time because manager, and he said to me in his ignorance, they have not the trade that would enable '' Mick is the one that can break wine down; them to do so. Customers of these hotels are he is the best in Queensland.''. ThcTe is no forced to drink pots of beer or larger that are such thing as l:;rcaking-ilown wme, but there either hot or flat. The fac.t that these small is such a -thing as breaking-down rum. I was hotels went out of commission would be for the downstairs and I saw Mick breaking the wine benefit of everybody in Queensland. For down; he was adding one gallon of water to instance, if two hotels ha-:e to go out of three gallons of wine, and the publi~ weTe ."P~Y­ commission and each one IS worth £2,000. ino- for one gallon of water; and m additton and the delicensing makes the value of the to "that the water spoils the flaYonr of the wine. two remaining hot·2ls jump up from £4,000 Those hotels, to carry on, are forced to -put to £6,000, the GO\ernment should pay com­ water with it or do ROmetl1ing apart from pensation to the extent of £2,000 and the the normal drink traffic. Tt is high time remaining hotels to the extent of £2,0?0. that hotels were delicensed. I do say However the fact I am most concerned with vou shoulrl de licence in Bundn berg. I shoulc1 is the licensees who nre deeilensed should lw there are hotels in other tOlY!lS SaY fully compensated. that should go. I should say in the East End th0re is oiw and in South li'Ir. L. J. BARNES (Cairns) (2.4? p.m.): Bundaberg one. There are two hotels I agree that the delicensing of certam hotels in North Bumbherg that could go nlthow:h in Queensland is n?t ~nly necessary but I certainlv snv that each one of the hotels essential, but the dehcensmg of hotels IS not thnt are (,limi;Jated shoulr1 he fully com]lC11· sufficient in itself. For instance, if t:omon'O\\' snted. the Commission delicensed 50 per cent. of ~lw Jlfr. Jfioore: What are the hotels? ::\a me hotels in the provincial to\~ns and the e}t" the hotels. of Brisbane there would sbll be anomahcs. SilO Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

'l'ake the Bellevue Hotel over the street. villo is a foul and filthy lie. 'l'he Townsville Nobody would ever say that as far as trade City Council has never abandoned tlw plan for is eoncemed it should be delicensed, unless l"L·modelling and modernising it. The council it was on account of the conduct of the had plans drawn up for remodelling and hotel. There is enough house- trade there modernising that hotel. Those plans stand for the hotel to keep going. The point [ today, and the people who refnsed to allow make is that: if the Licensing Commission us to do the work were the State Govern­ wishes to have licensed houses at which food mpnt, acting on the advice of the Co-ordinator­ will be served as it should be served aml General of Public Works, who refused to the publican can make sufficient profit out of advance the Townsville City Council money the hotel something must be clone to peg the in order to modernise and remodel ito· own prices for hotel leases and freehold. 'rhe hotel. There ar2 hotels right in the heart premium and rental that woul(l be charged of Townsville, as has been s7ated by the for hotels after 50 per cent. of the number Attorney-General, that are still using the old were delicensed would be excessive and would insanitary unhygienic pan system. force publicans to take certain thing~ off menus to make the hotel pay for itself. Let me give another idea of how Towns­ ville was persecuted in the curly days of the You would find, for instance, that they war. vVe had been granted money for the con­ would try to take a quarter of an ounce out of struction of an Olmypic swimming pool and a nobbler of whisky. When Mr. ::\fcConnack baths, and w·e had actually part-constructed it. was Premier of this State the breweries We had !Jcrn grunted £22,000 to do the ;job, put a suggestion to him, because he was not and when we had built the actual pool, before au fait with the position, that rentals should we could put any appliances onto it in order be pegged on licence fees. The Government to use it as a s·wimming pool, some of thE did not accept the advice of the breweries, nitwits in Townsville, led by Mr. H. G. Pass, who put a clause in their leases to provide who was the Queensland People's Party that any tenant who had, say, a three- or candidate for Mundingbuna at the last five-year lease and who sold the hotel within election, worked up public enthusiasm against 18 months should give a certain margin of the swimming pool, and the State Co-ordinator­ the profit made on the sale of the lease to the General of Public Works took the brewery. This was not done out of selfish remainder of the monev from us. And there motives but in an effort to prevent the pay­ on tlw Strand at 'l'o,Yns-ville today is a ment of inflated prices for the freehold or swimming pool half constructed on which we lease of a hotel. IHn·e spent £12,000. It cannot be used as a If we want better accommodation and sw·imming- nool because when we got the job better drinking houses it will be necessary half completed thE\ Sta'te Government took to reduce the licences and at the same time the l" st of the money from us. sp1·eacl them. For instance, there is room for two licences in North Caims. There are The snme i1osition existed in reganl to the probably four hotels adjoining one another C ;J:1ral Ho:'-'1. \Vc are prqe conception of punishment is direc~ed towar~s responsible. I only made the statement 1n it-the reformative aspect. Pumshment m order to point out that all the hotels not that aspect is intended to convey to the person connected with the sewerage are in the same so incarcerated that he may upon the comple­ position as the Council's hoteL I do not tion of his term become a potentially use­ think I mentioned the word ''money'' or ful citizen, one who will not again offend anything about money. The firms that own against society. But the very fact that the hotels are not raising the question of society says to a certain prisoner that he money but the question of getting permission will be incarcerated for life immediately from the building-control authorities under indicates that we abandon all hope of his the Bureau of Industry. Until they get that reform. Ob.-iously a life sentence means that pe1·mission from the Bureau of Industry they we relinquish all ·hope of the reform of such cannot get the material or go on with the a man, that he is beyond redemption. But work, although they have money to do .so. is it wise that we should mix such people It is not a question of money but a question with short-term prisoners for whom there is of permission. hope of reform and in whose punishment the Vote (Licensing Commission) agreed to. dominant feature is reform~ It would be interesting to hear from the PRISONS. A ttornE'Y-Gencral on this matter. First of all, perhaps he will tell us whether there is lion. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich­ am· truth in the Press statement I mentionec1 Attorney-Geneml) (2.54 p.m.): I move- anrl secondl;v whether the reformative purpose ''That £68,077 be granted for of punishment is being served in the mixing 'Prisons.' '' of long-term prisoners and lifers with short­ The amount requested shows- an increase term men. of £1,540 in salaries and a decrease of £1,462 in connection with contingencies, a net Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich­ decrease of £78. Attorney-General) (2.58 p.m.): There has been a statement in the Press in connectio-n with Additional officers are now employed at the nwtter and I should like to tell hon. Brisbane, Marburg, Townsville, and the staff memb-:r-J and the public the position. T1te at Rockhampton has been reduced by one. statement said that there were on the prison The number of service men confined in civil famrs 10 prisoners who had committed rape gaols has been greatly reduced, a;1d t~is and other serious offences, but the Comp­ accounts for the smaller amount reqmred ror troller-General of Prisons has furnished me maintenance and incidentals aml gratuities with this information- to discharged prisoners. '' The table, No. 3, appended to the Mr. HILEY (Logan) (2.55 p.m_) : Accord­ Prisons Department Annual Report for the ing to a recent statement in the Press relatmg year ended 31 December, 1945, refers to to the conduct of the prison farms on the offences for which prisoners were confined South Coast ri,·ers, a nnmber of lifers­ during the year and not individual murderers and other long·-term prisoners-are prisoners.'' mixing on these farms with a number of ,hOTt­ i.Erm prisoners. I should like the Attorney­ 'Il1e table I have here refers to the offences General to tdl hon. members what are the thnt have been eommitted. It sets out that figures in this regard. I shoElcl like to have one prisoner down there, not a long-term man nlso his observations concerning prison reform, hut a short-tnm mnn, is in for four offences of how this mixing of lifem and short-tenn in connection with the handling of children. men fits into the picture and serves the pur­ It was not a sexual offence. He was poses of prison farms. sentc>nced on fom separate charges of mis­ At 2.56 p.m., handling children. :\fr. DUGGAN ('l'oowoomba) relic• d the 1\fi'. Hiley: What was h.e charg·ed with­ Chairman in the chair. common assault¥ 852 Supply. [ASSE:MBL Y .] Supply.

l\Ir. GLEDSON: No, charges of indecently in society again. Some work with cattle, dealing. horses, pigs, and fowls. 'l'hey become conver­ sallt with agricultural work, including the lUr. Hiley: That is a sexual offence. growing of crops and the conservation of Mr. GLEDSON: He was a short-term water and fodder. :Many of the men who have prisoner. The other prisoner wa,s convicted spent six or 12 months there acquired a on two charges of assault, another prisoner liking for farm work and went on the land. was convicted of incest, another was a case Some of them are share-farmers, some have of indecently dealing, another carnal know­ been helped by their friends to go on the land ledg,e of a girl-this was an old man over 70 and others hav·e gone on to farms of their years of age-and the other was convicted of own. 'fhousands of men who have gone assault on a female. I asked him what that tlu·ough the honour system have sent letters was. He informed me that the offender was a to the Comptroller-General thanking him for soldier. lie was walking down the the opportunity he ha'd given them of re· stl'eet when he hit a girl with his hat establishing themselves in civil life. and was charged with assault. He was a Jlfr. IULEY (Logan) (3.6 p.m.): I am short-term prisoner. He was sent to a prison grateful to the Attomey-General for what he farm. The Comptroller-Genet·al decided, has told us. Lest he should have any mis­ after this man ha'd been at Boggo Road for apprrhension on the point let me assure him a little while, that he would be a good that to the extent to which prison farms are prisoner to send to Palen Creek. All these undoubtedly succeeding in ref01·ming a great prisoners were discharged in 1945. None number of people convicted by the courts I \Yore long-ta·m prisoners. have nothing but regard fo1· their work; my .!Ur. Brand: Have any prisoners there concern is rather lest to some degree the been sentenced to life imprisonment for quality of that work might be in jeopa'rdy by murder? some unwise blending of the classes of persons allowed to go to the prison farms. Ml·. GLEDSON: There are only six 'fhere were a number of murderers there. The prisoners concerned in these offences. There Attorney-General has given the Committee no are some life prisoners down there. One information as to the number of persons such prisoner is a young fellow who got into convictE'd of murcl'er who are on the prison trouble because some person induced him to farms. I think we are entitled to those drink. He is only a lad. The Comptroller figures also. sent him to the prison farm. He has taken Because it is implied in something he said, up a course of study in engine-driving, in I should like him to tell the Committee this: which he has obtained first-class and second· he quoted the case of a la'd who had been class certificates. He has certificates for declared a habitual criminal and sentenced to steam-engine- driving also. He was put on life imprisonment who was making good the steam-engine, and given an opportunity studying engineering and so on. That would of going onto fhe boiler in the sawmill there. sL:ggest to me that all hope of reformation of Ho is also studying for his certificate for the a person who gets a life sentence is not diesel engine and electricity. abandoned. It was implied that if this lad Mr. Hiley: Is he a lifer? succeeds in demonstrating that he is a potentially useful citiz,cn, the life sentence Mr. GLEDSON: Yes. He is only a boy. attached to him could in his special circum­ We thought it better that he should be stances be waived or he could be paroled and incarcerated at Palen Creek than at Boggo thus restored to society as a' decent citizen. road. He is doing us,eful work. Some pris­ o!lers whose sentences \Yere reviewed by the 3I.r. Aikens: Why not? Parole Board were given the opportunity IUr• .HIIiEY: I agree, but I should like of going to a farm. The Comptroller-General the Attorney-General to take the Committee really decides whether a prisoner should or fully into his confidence on these two points­ should not go there. He has the sole respon­ firstly, how many murderers are on prison sibility for every prisoner sent there. No-one farms, secondly, whether I am conec't in lmt the Comptroller has any say as to whether what I feel is implicit in his remarks, that a prisoner goes to the farm or l"emains at this lad to whom he made particular refer· Boggo road. It is all a question whether he cnce will have the hope, if he can demonstrate thinks he can trust a prisoner. The object that he is in fact showing eYidence of real of transferring a prisoner to a prison farm re·form, of bci11g freed and becoming a decent is to rehabilitate him. Some prisoners are citizen. given a fixed sentence by the Pm·ole Board and there are prisoners at Boggo road who Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich­ have no chance of getting out of there. Attorney-General) (3.9 p.m.): 0£ prisoners in Prison farms were instituted towards the end gaol for murder, five are at Palen Creek, and of 1934 by the Premier, who was then Secre­ since this report was compiled two have been tary for Health and Home Affairs. Some released on parole. prisone.rs ~were tra'nsfened from Boggo road 'ilir. Maher: Two murderers released on to Palen Creek, and housed h1 tents for the parole~ purpose of establishing it. The prisoners have built that fm·m up into a valuable. Ml'. GLEDSON: There is one at Stone property. It is now vastly improved. It also RiY0r and one at Numinbah. provides an opportunity for the men the-re lUr. Brand: What is the total on those to rehabilitate themseh·es and take their placa farms~ Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 853

~lr. GLEDSON: Five at Palen Creek. it. That institution is no longer a prison one at Stone River, and one at Numinbah. under the, Prisons Department. All prisoners at Rockhampton are kept at the watchhouse At 3.10 p.m., and anyone sentenced to more than a fort­ The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair. night's imprisonment is brought to Brisbane. The people of R.ockhampton hacame so good Mr. GLEDSON: Parliament gave that there was no need for the gaol; some­ prisoners the right to apply to a Parole Board, times it had no prisoners, and on the occasion which looks into the fucts. It considers the when I inspected it, there was only Oil'e. report of the triul judge, who makes his report on the seriousness of the matter froin ~Ir. Pie: Have you an officer in charge the evidence adduced at the trial. If the there~ bourd thinks the prisoner should be allowed out on parole, speaking from memory I think Mr. GLEDSON: We have an offi.oe1· in the period of parole is two years, after which charge at the watchhouse who is under the the prisoner is released. control of the inspector of police there. ~Ir. Hile,y: So you never abandon hope JUr. Brand: You are providing for a 'vith them~ wardar here. Mr. GLEDSON: No. If we abandoned )lr. GLEI>SON: There are separate hope that would be the end of all. As I said, places for males and females at the watch­ the Parole Board considers the circumstances, house. the report of the trial judge and the behaviour of the prisoner while in prison lllr. Pie: There is no-one at the gaol? and if it is thought that in the interests of the prisoner parole can be granted without )fr. GLEI>SON: No. The gaoler is at the detriment to the public parole is given under watchhouse now. certain conditions. As to solitary confinement, the solitary­ confinement cells have not been used for jlfr. PIE (Windsor) (3.12 p.m.): People yeaTs. They are there, but they are used for who have been very closely assocmted with stores. 'They are situated on the floor under­ prison work for 20 to 25 years have brought neath the building, but prisoners ara not kept under my notice their opinion that too much in them. solitary confinement is imposed on certain types of prisoners in the. gaol at Boggo Road llir. Pie: There are many people there in comparison with those who are sent to in solitary confinement. Palen Creek. I promised them I would bring the matter up when these Estimates were llir. GLEDSON: If a person becomes going through Committee with the object of refractory and punishment is required, he is asking the Attorney-General to inquire into kept in his own cell; he is not put in a that aspect of the matter. solitary-confinement cell. We have a refrac­ tory cell there for anyone who is violent. It When in Rockhampton recently, I under­ is padd,ad, and if a prisoner becomes refrac­ stood that the prison there was virtually tory or mental he is put in there until he is closed: that there was no-one in it and that taken to anotl1er institution. The solitary­ the Government are not likely to use it as a confinement cells are not used, and have not prison again. As confirming that view, I been for years, although they are still there. 1vould point out that in the very lee of the Of course, wo still have the old scaffold there, prison \valls a series of old-age pensioners' but, like the solitary-confinement cells, it has homes have been built. Do the Government not be,en used for years. intend to cany on that prison as, a prison in any shape or form~ I notice that in these lllr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (3.19 Estimates an amount of £641 is provided for p.m.) : I am particularly pleased tha't the it. The position is really tenible from the hon. member for Logan raised tha question aspect of the situation of these homes for of sending lifers to the prison farms, and I the old people and the Attorney-General congratulate the Attorney-General and the should give the Committee some indication as Prisons Department for having extended the to whether the Government intend to carry reformative section of the work. on that building as a prison or demolish it. As it stands, it is a very grave injustice to If I can judge from the interjections, it these old people ; their homes are in the would seem that some hon. membars of the Yery shadow of the prison wall. Opposition believe in the old mediaeval inquisitorial method of punishment, that once Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich­ a man commits a sin against society he should Attorney-General) (3.15 p.m.): I will answer be punished anrl ostracised for ever. I the last question of the hon. member for remind hon. members who have that idea of Windsor first. 'J'he Rockhampton gaol has punishment of one of the truly great proverbs been declared by proclamation, an Eventide of Confucius in which he says that a man is Home for the Aged, and placed under the not judged great by staying risen but by contr'ol of tha Secretary for Health and rising oYery time he falls, and I congratu­ Home Affairs. No more prisoners will be late the Government on giving prisoners an kept there. I understand that when the opportunity of rising irrespective of the labour is available it will be pulled down. number of times they have fallen. Plans have been prepared for the work and the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs Mr. Maher: That does not apply to will be able to give more information about murderers. 8.3-± Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

.JUr. AIKENS: Let us take the crime of with his fellow men and forever he denied murder. Many men who are murderers have the opportunity of once again joining lit' never committed any other crime but that fellows~ single act of murder. They are decent citizens J\Il·. Malt er: A killer is a killer. He has who, in a moment of anger or impetuosity, murderous instincts and he will kill a second happened to strike a blow that resulted in time. the death of their victim. Becaus·e of that ilir. AIKENS: Absolute bunk and bosh! one unfortunate lapse- There is no man amongst us who has not the }Ir. Hiley: It is not murder. killer instinct; most of us are able to repress our ·;;motions, including our hatred, and have .:\Ir. AlKENS: We have a convicted not actually committed the act of murder . murderer in Boggo road who did not 'rhe guilt of a particular act is not in the kill a man. He was merely then~ committal of the act but in the mental whel] a police pimp killed the Chinaman process behind the act-the motive behind and he is now doing a life sentence the act. Ther·e is a passage in the Bible that for murder. Curley Day did not kill the says something to the effect that a man who Chinaman but he was there when the police has adultery in his mind is as guilty as the pimp did and Curley Day ''copped the blue.'' man who commits adultery with the body. I Every one of us may kill a person in a fit do not know the exact words; I am not of anger or passion, and according to the :cufficientlv conversant with Holy Sc1·ipture views expressed by the hon. member for West to quote 'them verbatim, but they are there. Moreton that person should be punished for My only argument against the Parole Board ever without the chance of redemption or is that it is too strict. There was a time reformation. I do not agree with that view. \vhen a political party of the political suasion I believe that a man, no matter how bad he of the hon. member for West Moreton is, has still within him the elements of good­ governed this State when murderers were ness and if they can be brought out after he released after they had served for no more than has served a term of imprisonment commen­ 12 years. James Kenniff was released after surate with the off\mce that man should have serving for 1 2 years and other murderers the opportunity of taking his right place have been released aftr'r serving not more again in human society. That is than 12 years, yet today they must serve 21 applied True Christianity a.nd vastly or 22 years before they can even come near different from the theological Chris- the Parole Board. EYen if a man has served tianity as applied by many hon. member~. 12 years for premeditated murder, at least I am a practical Christian and not a theologl­ he should be given the right to approach cal Christian. That is the Christianity in the Parole Board and the Parole Board should which I believe. I see no reason why, if a have the right to consider favourably his murderer shows signs that he is repentant application for release on parole. I believe and is willing to work with the prison authori­ that punishment can be too drastic and too ties to fit himself to become once again a excessive, that being so, it can defeat its O\Yll useful member of society, he should not be object. Consequently, while I congratulate the pla'ced on a prison farm. For anybody to Goyernment on instituting the Parole Board suggest that the common short-term prisoners and while I congTatulate them on the release will be corrupted by coming in contact with a of murderers and other prisoners, neverthe­ murdere,r is bunkum because a murderer, less I think there is much room for improve­ despite the fact that he has been found guilty ment, and for more lenience than there is at of murder, might be capable of high the present time. moral attainments. He might be one of the best of men although in a moment of passion Mr. Maller: What you want is to abolish or hatred he committed the crime of murder. gaols and let them loose. There are times, Mr. Manu, when I have Jir. AIKENS: What a remarkable number contemplated murder; don't have any doubt of men in this. communitv 1vant to see our about that. The typical man has tmn·ad over Australian sinners sente,{ced to everlasting in his mind more than once the idea of gaol, and on the other hand want to see the getting rid of some pestiferous person by X azi and :B'ascist sinners released and forgiven removing him by an act of homicicle. The and heaped with flowers, fruit, and everything only thing that has prevented me from else! If the Nazi or Fascist sinner in committing murder has been the fear of their opinion is entitled to clemenev punishment; sometimes I have thought my surely some of our own murderers also intended victim was not worth standing trial are entitled to clemency. I do not believe for much less than being convicted. in the abolition of punishment altogether. ])Ir. 1Uaher: You would not kill a If you were to do away with punishment cockroach. you would destroy the whole fabric of society, on which our democratic institutions are :nr. AIKENS Perhaps I am so soft­ baRed. On another yote I am going to deal hearted that I would not kill a cockroach with the most pernicious type of killer that but I have contemplate·cl killing not cock· \\~e have in this State today, the road-hog roaches but human beings-some not far a\Yay killer, the man who takes in his hands a lethal from me at the present time. Because a man weapon in the form of a motor-car and runs does one a'ct of nnuder is he to be condemned down innocAnt men, women and children on fot all time, to he made a social leper and the highwnys and byways of the State an(1 locker] a~way in Bog·go Road or Ste\'~art 's gets n\\·ay with it. The hon. member thinks r'1·cn~' ~11d 11~t again be allnwccl to mingle that thnt t~·pe of killer ought to he Rhle to Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 855 get away with it !Jeeause he i~ a motorist the case before imposing a sentence. The himself, and never knows the day that he court is very liberal and takes into considera­ might run down men, '"omen and children tion all the circumstances before it imposes, in the highways and byways of this State. for example, a sentence of life imprisonment. He does not believe that a man who in a fit vVe have seen many serious cases such as of passion takes a chopper, a knife or a gun killing dealt with by the court. In most and destroys a life should get any clemency cases murder is premeditated. Again I say eYen after he has served 20 years in gaol. that the Government should take another view I conclude by congratulating the Govern­ of this matter and not let it be said that ment, and I again suggest to the Attorney­ people undei"going a sentence of life imprison­ General that he put it to the Parole Board ment for murder can go out onto these prison not to restrict its activities but to enlarge farms where there is no control over them. ::md modify them. They are on their word of honour. We owe a duty to the people living in the adjacent Mr. PLUNKETT (Albert) (3.28 p.m.): A areas. They should not be allowed to live yery big principle is inyolved in this matter there in greater fear than is usually associ­ and there is no doubt that the presence of ated with country life. lifers on the pris.on farms has caused a good The statement in the Press has caused a neal of alarm. good deal of alarm in those areas. Some lUr. Aikens: Only among the wowsers in consideration should be shown to that section the community. of the community who have never broken the laws of the country, and who are trying l1Ir. PLUNKETT: The hon. member pro­ to make a living. They should not be left fesses to be a pmctical Christian, not a with some dread o\·erhanging them that men theological Christian, and then the next on these farms who have been found guilty minute he says that he had mmder in his of murder will abuse the liberty they have mind Ycry often. If that is the attitude to walk out day or night. of mind of a Christian then I cannot say that I am a practical Christian. l1Ir. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (3.33 p.m.) : I find myself somewhat in agreement There is no doubt that the prison farms with the hon. member for Mundingburra. lwve done a great deal of good, and they That is because dming the last 10 years I have helped many prisoners to rehabilitate have gone through a lot of persecution. themselves in society, but it must be remem­ Sometimes I find myself believing in the bered that the prison farms are in closely God in the Old Testament that told settled districts, and that the presence of David to ''slay his enemies.'' After lifers on these farms has given serious alarm. having gone through persecution, and after While we should do evtlrything possible to haYing been put into gaol on several occa­ encourage people to rehabilitate themselves sions, you often feel like shooting your in society, we must not place desperate enemies. Then again I find myself believing prisoners in close proximity to people living in the God in the New Testament who said in the country, very often in isolation, with ''Love thy neighbour as thyself,'' as women and children. On some occasions their I am a true Christian. Sometimes I husbands are perhaps absent from home while have to decide which God I have to follow. they are virtually within a couple of miles of Sometimes, like Guy Fawkes, I feel as if I n prison farm where there are men who have should like to blow up Parliament House, an been sentenced to life imprisonment for act that would probably help the universe. murder. 1'\'e should give every opportunity If I did I should force the public to read my for those who have offended against the speeches on such a vital matter as the reform bws of society to retrieve their position, even of the banking system. If I blew up Parlia­ if they have committed murder, but it should ment House they would say, ''It looks as be done within bounds, not at such places as though this guy Barnes had something. prison farms. There arc no locks or keys He was th2 only man who could see that to prison farms. Its inmates can walk out the international bankers were behind all at any time of the day or night they ,vish. our tron bles and there was no other We have found that very few indeed in way but to blow the place up and get a tomparison 'rith the number incarcerated fresh team in who were influenced by the there have done so, but I am just wondering, policy of Mr. Barnes.'' Therefore I should and the I"esidents in the vicinitv too are be adjudged by them an innocent man; it ,l·ondel'ing, why a man who has "committed would he said that I did the country a good murder, be he young or old, should be given turn. J should be regarded as a martyr. the opportunit"· of going to a prison farm and l<~Yen a murderer should be paroled undeT bp at liberty clay or night and in proximity such circumstances. I know a person who to country people who fear men of that type. is going to he gaoled for murder and it If 've m·e to giYe these people an oppmtunity seems that his life has been such that his to rehabilitate themselves-and I agree that chance of being pa'roled is nil; but there are ' e should-we should do it under a different people who on the spur of the moment pick system altogether, not under the s:y,tem we something up and use it or use a gun. If I have been discussing. vVe must take a serious had a gun in my hand sometimes probably I view of this matter in relation to those men should use it and therefore I should be entit­ who commit murder. led to be pa'roled. I was born of Australian parents, three-quarter Irish and one-quarter I do not agree with the hon. member for English, and I am grateful for the one­ Mundingbmra in the matter of court quarter English, because were it not so the sentences. The court goes into all angles of persecutions I have gone through would have 856 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. made me shoot at least one or two people's or a good portion of those shares that will heads off. So I am grateful for the one­ come to you in the Castlemaine Brewery, quarter Bnglish, which brings me back to because you are dangerous you might the New T·estament and therefore I belieYe then have a controlling interest. You can ''God is Love,'' even though I sometimes take my \\ ord for it, a case will come on, believe in the God in the Old Testament who then another case \Vill come on, then another, told David to ''slay his enemies.'' and so on, and you will find legal costs eating I am in favour of parole, if the prisoner's up a large portion of the money left in the character has been good prior to his enter­ will.'' The Public Curator sat on the fence ing gaol. I do not belieye in paroling the until the end. He sat on the fence until the habitual criminal because men of that class end, because he knew it was not necEssary will continue to do what they have done in to come in at the beginning. The the past. The habitual criminal should be Attorney-General in answer to a question asked in this Chamber s·aicl that the Public med~cally. treated. The day is coming when '"e m this Parliament will haYe criminals Curator was not entitled to come in until medically treated-at least my grand­ the will had come before the Full Court of children-will say, ''My grandfather, Frank Queensland. I say definitely that the Public Barnes, member for Bundaberg, decided that Curator knew in the first place that he c0uld they were . a lot of dills in those days, they come in. It was his legal right to do so, and knew nothmg about medicine.'' The day is he did not come in until pressme was brought to coming quickly when scienctl will prove that bear, because in this particular case breweries habi~ual criminals are created through influence the policy of the Government an~ physical want. When we get to that stage they were opposed to Paddy FitzGerald s we shall study before we speak in order to rightly getting the shares left to him, and by learn the real causes of results. I say that opposing him they would reduce hi,.; capital the r\al cause of every crime is money; or shares in the brewery. The court refused there IS no other cause; directly or indirectly the Public Curator certain costs because he it is money. People were conYicted and had no right to be there at that stage. sent out to Australia because thev stole a It is high time breweries ceased to dictate rabbit or a loaf of bread, because they the policies of the Govemment ancl I say needed money in order to giYe their family right now that the Attorney-General-- financial security. In the library you will see that prominent people in this countrY Thir. GLEDSON: I rise to a point of order. were sent to gaol because they fought for I ask that the hon. member for Bundabm·g their rights in the Old Country and came out withdraw his statement that breweries dictate here as convicts and became prominent here. the policy of the Government. The day is coming again, as the Bible ~Ir. J. F. BARNES: I do not intend to. says, ''Fools shall be wise men and the wise There is no point of order. men shall prove fools.'' I say members of Parliament are fools because th.ey are "Yes" Mr. GLEDSON: I ask that the statement men of the international bankers· and th<'Y be withdrawn. It is offensive to me. should be all politica1ly mmdercd.' ·· Mr. J. 1'. BARNES: You look at the Vote (Prisons) agreed to. Standing Orders. There is no point of order. PUBLIC CURATOR. Tile CHAIR1UAN: Order. I ask the hon. Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich- member for Bunda.berg to withdraw that Attorney-General) (3.39 p.m.): I move- statement as the Attorney-General says it '' That £2,600 be granted for 'Public is offensive to him as a member of the Curator.' '' GoYernment. The Es.timate is £400 in excess of last year's Mr. J. F. BARNES: Righto, I will with­ expenchtme. The work of this office has draw the statement. increased to a large extent, so that additional vVhat I was about to say when I was sat staff is required, and increased fees to upon \Yas that pTessure was bTought on the barristers and solicitors in private practice Public CuratoT to intervene in this case when must be paid. vV e lwpe to extend our at that stage he had no intention of doing: legal-aid work by the beginning of next pressure was brought to bear by none otheT year. than the Attorney-GeneTal himsdf. Most of the money for the Public Curator comes under Trust and Special Funds. Mr GLEDSON: I rise to another point of OT~lcr. I do not know how long we have }Ir. J. :1<'. BARNES (Bundaberg) (3.40 to sit and listen to this sort of thin;.:. ""'o p.m.): I rise again to criticise the Public pressme was bTought to bear on the Public Curator and the Attomey-General. Hon. Curator in any foTm whatever. members arc aware of an action that recently hit the courts-the Devoy -will case. That was The CHAIRJUAN: Order! I ask the hon. one of the biggest rackets ever perpetmted member fOT Bundaberg to accept the denial in Qneensland and it was abetted by the of the Attorney-General. He must not Public Curator. When Patrick FitzGerald, a persist in imputing improper motives to hon. beneficiary under the Devoy will, was brought members. into court about the will, I said to him, '· Pndrly, this is a racket. It. is a racket, lUr. J. }'. UARNES: You ask me to accept perpetrated with the one idea of relieving the clenial of the Attorney-General: I am you of some of the £62,000 worth of shares forced to accept th' denial of the Attornry- Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 857

General because I can be out for a fortnight the motorist is not alwavs to blame for the if I do not, ·but that is the only reason why road accident. Nevertheless it is an absolute I accept it. It is high time that public fact that in most instances the motorist is officers ceased to be politically influenced. at fault. I believe that speed is mainly TheTe is one thing certain and that is that responsible for the accidents that occur on the Public CuratoT is going to get a fright­ om roads, the accidents that are leaving a ful kick in the back from me and tl.is time terrible trail of death and destruction on their political influence will get them into every road, every highway and every byway trouble, not out of tTouble. in the State. Vote (Public Curator) agreed to. ilir. GLEDSON: I rise to a point of order. I do not want to stop the hon. member from REGISTRAR~GEXER~\.L, dealing ·with this matter but I cannot see how I can reply to him because this matter does Hon. D. A. GLEDSOK (Ipswich--­ Attonwy-GeneTal) (3.44 p.m.): I move- not eome under my control. '' That £10,087 be granted for 'Registral·- The CHAIRiUAN: Order! I was just General.' '' considering the point and wondering whether This amount is £1,525 in excess of last the Attorney-General was going to draw year's expenditure, and is represented by attention to it. I think the matter comes an increase of £2,016 in salaries and a Teduc­ under police courts. I do not think there is tion of £491 in contingencies. The increased any provision in the vote for Sheriff and provision foT salaTies is brought about by Supreme Court for it. the return of four officers fTom waT service. Mr. AIKENS: There is provision, and I The smaller amount under ''Contingencies'' was going to tie the whole affair in. 1 was is explained by payment last year of £782 going to tie it in with the Crown Prosecutor, for retiring allowance, &c., which is a non­ Supreme Court judges, and everyone connected recuning item. 'rhe other contingencies item; with the Supreme Court, because in my honest show increases of £153, and £138 in postage, and considered opinion the attitude of the telegrams and incidentals and faTes, freights, Supreme Court towards road killers is respon­ pTinting and stationeq respectinly. sible for the contempt in which the law is Y ote agreed to. held by the genuine guilty road killer. 'l'lwt is a serious statement to make, ancl I intend to buttress it with absolute facts. The aver­ SHERIFF AND SUPREME COl-RT. age motorist is a decent citizen who tries to Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich­ obey the law, but the killer, the speedster, A ttomey-General) (3.45 p.m.) : I move- the man who disregards the rights of every­ ''That £36,523 be granted for 'Sheriff one else on the road except himself, has no and 8upreme Court.' '' respect for the law because he knows that if he kills and comes before a Supreme Court This is a decrease of £419 on last year's and is found guilty the sentence imposed upon expenditure. There is an increase of £1,101 him will be a travesty of justice, not a real in salaries, seven officers having returned to act of justice. duty. The decrease of £1,520 in contingencies is represented by a reduction of £2,011 in the I mentioned in this Chamber last "Car item for expenses of jurors and witnesses the ce1se of a man who admitted that he" was attending the SupTeme and Circuit Courts. coming home fTOm a joy ride in the Towns­ Owing to its natme, this expenditure is ville area and had gone to sleep at the wheel. govemed by the number of eommittals from \Vhile asleep at the ·wheel he ran into, at the lower court. speed, and killed three men, two Americans and a young boy, who were fixing a motor lUr. AIKENS (Mundingburra) (3.46 cycle on the side of the road in the brilliant p.m.) : l wish to deal with the terrible toll glare of motor-car headlights. The boy's of the road, which is mounting daily. I motor-cycle had broken down, the two Ameri­ know that every decent citizen of this Htate cans had come along in their motor-car, they and of the Commonwealth must stand had shone the brilliant headlights on the appalled at the growing death roll as a result motor cycle, and the three of them were fixing of motor-car accidents throughout Queensland t ht> motor-cvcle. This man admitted in and the Commonwealth. I know also that t>virlence that he was asleep at the wheel, that many men and women and children have been he had run into and killed the three men. maimed and crippled for life as a result of these accidents. I know, too, that many of He was charged and found guilty of man­ these accidents have been unavoidable. Many slaughter by a Townsville jury, and Mr. of them have been accidents in the true sense Justice R. J. Douglas allowed him to go of the term. I can remember riding home free on bond. The man appealed to the Full from this House a few weeks ago with an Court and the Full Comt granted him a hon. member of the Labour Party. He gave retrial. He again came before the Supreme me a ride home in his motor-car and I do Court in Townsville, and the jury on this not propose to mention his name because it occasion again found him guilty of unlaw­ may influence his endorsement for the coming fully killing, and in sentencing the man plebiscite. Between Queen Street and Mr. Justice Douglas made this astonishing Adelaide Street he brought his car to a stand­ statement, ''I am going to take into con­ still while a pedestrian actually walked across sider.ation the fact that you have been to the road and walked into the bonnet of his considerable expense in securing this retrial; stationary car, which shows of course that therefore, althol~gh you have been found 858 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

guilty for the second time of unlawfully time, and it is the same all over the State. killing, I do not propose to send you to These people know that if they knock down gaol.'' The man was released on a bond. anybody or kill or injure anybody th~ w~ole What an outcry if some murderer, with a process of law is staek~d upon theu SI~e. lethal instrument such as a bottle, a stick, The whole process of law IS s!a'cked_ on the s1Cl~ an ille·gal instrument, or a knife, had been of the killer instead of agamst him, and 1f found guilty of manslaughter in the first even by a sweep of hard luck f_or him he ~o·es case; had got a retrial by appealing to the before the Supreme Court and IS found gm_lty 1<'ull Court; had been committed back to a of unlawfully killing or unlawfully woundmg second trial; and the judge mo.uthed those or even of murder some maudlin old judge maudlin sentiments in regard to that killer~ who is a motorist himself will lavish on him sympathy that he does not deserve ,and mete At the time I mentioned this case last out an absolutely ridiculous sentence. Until year the Full Court case had not come off. our judges face up to these facts and demand The man was afterwards found guilty by a from this type of killer the respect to v- hi eh jury of unlawfully killing, and as I said, the law is entitled nothing will be done. was released on a bond. I was so incensed that I wrote a series of articles to the northern Hon. n. A. GLEilSON (Ipswich­ Press, claiming that the maudlin sentences Attorney-General (3.56 p.m.): The respon­ imposed by the Supreme Court judges were sibility for pretecting the public on the high­ responsible for the terrific increase in the ways is a matter for the police and the death-roll on the roads. One article sentence a matter for the Supreme Com-t. appea'red in a weekly northern paper, but the The Supreme Court judge can impobe daily Press would not touch the articles. sentence only according to the law of the Later there was the case of a man charged land and if it is held that the law does not befor·a the same Supreme Court with having go far enough that is a matter for Parlia­ knocked a woman do>vn and il1jmed her. He ment, not for the judge. was found guilty of unlawfully wounding­ not killing-and Mr. Justice R. J. Douglas 1Ir. Aikens: Do you think that a man sent him to gaol for a: term. There was no should get a lesser sentence for injuring release on a bond for that man. I do not another than for killing him~ want anybody to get the idea that I believe the sentence imposed on the second man was JUr. GLEilSON: I suppose on reading too light. I do not. I think his sentence the cases I should not give the same sentence was well-deserved, but e.an anyone justify as a judge would give but a judge must the action of Mr. Justice Douglas in allow­ take all the circumstances into consideration. ing a killer to go free on a bond and sentenc­ ~Ir. Aikens: One was a socialite and the ing a man who merely injured a person to a other a worker. light term of imprisonment~ That is what is occurring today. 'rhe road killers of this lUr. GLEDSON: The judge can impose State-they constitute the minority of those a sentence only in accordance with the law who drive-but the actual potential road and if the law is insufficient it is for Parlia­ killers of this State hold the law in contempt ment to alter it. That cannot be done by because of the puerile, maudlin sentences administration. inflicted on them on the few occasions when they are found guilty by a jury. Unless our :Ur. WANSTALL (Toowong) (3.58 p.m.) : judges face up to the fact that they have a I agree with the remarks of the A_ttorne:y­ duty to the people to punish this type of General concerning the power of the Judge m offender adequately, just as juries realise that imposing sentence and they are applicable to they have a duty to the public as well as the sentences generally and not only to the type person charged befora them, nothing will be of sentence mentioned by the hon. member done to reduce the awful toll of the road. for Mundingburra. 'rhe toll is mounting up year after year until The standardisation of sentences is a ques­ it will excead, as I believe it almost does now, tion that has exercised the minds of jurists the death roll overseas amongst our fighting as long as there has been a system of law­ forces during the last war. This is a scan­ enforcement similar to the system under dalous state of affairs. Newspapers are which we live. I am reminded of the remarks gn·mg space to this subject and fortu­ of the hon. member for Toowoomba two nately are forgetting Bernborough, or giving nights ago on the same subject. It is utterly Bernborough only a page and a half instead impossible to standardise offences because no of two pages; they have cut down the report two offences are alike. Each offence is about a social whoremong<'r who shot different from the next, as each person is another social whoremonger in Sydney to different from another. half a page, and devoted only one column instead of two columns to Frankie Sinatra 's Mr. Aikens: Unfortunately no two separation from his wife, but unfortunately persons are alike. One man was a socialite the men, women and kiddies who walk off the and the other a worker. footpath walk into what might be termed a pit of death when they pass onto our high­ JUr. WAN STALL: I do not pay any ways. It is not uncommon at night-time to attention to the vapourings of the hon. mem­ see cars and motor-cyclists travelling np to ber on that subject. I considered his remarks 50 miles an hour in George Street, Queen concerning the hon. Northern j'udge were a Street, South Brisbane, Ann Street and grave reflection on the judge's integrity and Elizabeth Street. Fifty miles an hour is not more than once I was prompted to rise and an uncommon speed for those people at night- enter a protest because I thought that the Supply. [22 OcToBER.] Supply. 809

hon. member was committing a breach of the to increase the sentences. ·we are here as Standing Orders. However, I decided to let law·makers, not as law·interpretcrs. If that him finish and take the opportunity when my was our considered opinion, of course, we turn cumc to condemn his remarks. I think should bring about the change that hon. that he made a very unfair reflection upon members desire. the hon. the Northern judge and judges Mr. Aikens: Is not the maximum generall~·. srntcnce for manslaughter life? lUr. AHmNS: Mr. Manu, I rise to a point of order. I made no reflection what· JUr. WANSTALL: The maximum sen­ I tences in most circumstances would be life, but eYet·. studiously kept awa;v from reflections. there are other cases that aTe left to the I made a statement of absolute fact that can discretion of the judge-the question whether br ,·erified from the He>Yspnpers that pnh· the offender should be imprisoned or whether l i:;hed the rase. he should he released on a bond. I am making T!i(' CHAIRMAN: Mr. Wanstall! no plea for the careless motorist-I detest the creature-but I urge the hon. member for ::\Ir. WAX STALL: It all depends on the 1\Iundingburra. to exercise a little temperance point of view from which one considers the and he a little more careful in this matter, mutter whether eert:l in remarks are n particularly in the CTiticism of sentences. reflection m· not. If an;·one says, ''A \Vhat he describes as a more Tigorous applica· maudlin old judge, himself a motorist'' the tion of the law really applies to matters implication is that being a motorist he before you get to the law courts and is sentenced a prisoner to a lighter term than not CTiticism of the courts. The remedy is he should haYe got nnd I should consider the prevention of maiming or killing of little that such a judge lmd been insulted or victims in tTaffic accidents. 'rhe real remedy, reflected upon. Perhaps the hou. member did as the Attorney·General pointed out, is to not intend to make any reflection; or possibly preYent such injury in the first place, not to he coulcl not help doing so. Howeyer, he complain about the lack of severity of th<' made the statement and I think it wns an sentences after some poor innocent Yictim has t'ntirely wrong one to make. The hon. mem· been laid low. ber must lmow that he reflected on the good fiir Ail> ens: After a man has run you name of the judges of this State. It is all dtmu. he should bP let go. Ts that yom vet)' well for an hon. member to stand up ;1ttitude~ and express disagreement with a particular sentence but he is not in the same favoured lUr. WANS'l'ALL: No, that is not my position to review all the circumstances attitucle. relating to an offence as a judge who hears 3Ir. Aiken~: That is what you are the 1vhole of the evidence and has been advoeating. trained during the whole of his lifetime in the upplication of sentences. JUr. WANS'fALL: No, but you would I am absolutely convinced of this, that tlw achi:ve a mueh better rcsnlt by reducing the judge is fired with only one ambition anc1 only numbe1· of <1eaths by proper police adion. That is preferable to increasing sentences on one ~otive, and that is to administer justice motorists "·ho han• been found guilt:-· of' this >lS fauly as his capacity and ability will per· mit him .to do so. The hon. member probably offence. has a different conception of sentences the JUr. Aikens: That would be a weak higher or lighter sentences in diff0rent dnses. argument if you applied it to all types of I ask the hon. member to reflect and reulise killers. that what is of more importa.nee is the reten· tion by the public of their faith in the ~Ir. 1YANSTALL: It would be just as administration of justice·. If he does l'efiect true whatever type of killer you were apply­ on those lines he will see that he is not doincr ing it to. It is far betteT to prevent a service to the people when he gives utteranc~ crime in the first place than attempt to to the statements he did, as h0 is undermining stamp out that class of crime by increasing their faith in the judiciary. the sewrit:-· of the sentence. It applies not only to crime and disease but evervthin'( The hon. member spoke of mul'derers being thr1t takes place in soe.iety; preyention is found guilty of manslaughter. He does not hetter than cure. realise how paradoxical was his statement. Murder implies the volition of impulse and In the little book that the Attomey·General manslaughter is simply a case of negligence, distributed on the activities of his Chief of unintentional injury in the case of unlaw­ Offiee anrl sub-departments, on page 40, fully wounding. There is a vast degree of nndet· the ''Sheriff's Office, Supreme Court,'' difference in the punishment that the Legisla· I notice some interesting figures dealing tnrEl has agreed should be fixed for inan· >Yith the number of nolle prosequis entered slaughter as compared with mmder. As the at the Supreme Court. For the year ended A.ttor~ey-General pointed out on previous occa· 30 June, 1946, 23 were entered against male s1ons m answer to the hon. member for Too­ accused and nil ngainst fema1es; and on the lvoomba, and as he reminded the hon. member same page it is recorded that no indictment for Mundingbnrra, the remedy lies in the was presented against three males and one l1ands of this Legislature, not in the hands female. In other words, 23 cases went before {Jf.l~o:r. members who attempt by intemperate the Supreme Court, the juries were enticism of sentences to influence the empanelled, the Crown Prosecutor opened judiciary or magistrates, as the case may be, the case, and the trial was proceeded with 860 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. to a certain stage, where the Crown case professional staff and exercise his discretion broke down utterly and completely, and, if -in that type of case only-and thereby save the normal thing happened, his Honour the a good deal of the time and some of the trial judge would have intimated to the congestion in the courts, and certainly a. Crown Prosecutor that this was a case in good deal of public money. which he would be compelled to direct the I finish on this note: I would not have jury to enter an acquittal or, alternatively, anybody say of me that I advocated any loose be compelled to withdraw the indictment discTetion by the Attorney-General or the from the jury; and then the Crown Prosecuc running of any risk by him. Far better allow tor would enter a nolle prosequi. That an indictment to go for trial and allow the happened in 23 cases in Brisbane. I should judge to intimate his opinion on it, if there like to see the figures for the country which, is any doubt; but theTe are a. numbeT of I imagine, would be comparative. On the <"ases-and I know of them personally-in other hand, the Attorney-General exercises which the evidence has been so hopelessly his discretion not to present an indictment weak :mcl lacking that the Attorney-General, in only three cases. 1fy point is that in exercising his discretion, could diTect the the majority of the 23 cases· in 'vhich nolle presenting of no indictment at that stage. prosequis were entered, almost invariably at the suggestion of the judge, the correct thing Mr. Aikens: And lay himself open to a for the Attorney-General to do would have veTy serious charge. been to present no true bill; so instead of )lr. WAN STALL: He would not lay having three cases of no indictment and 23 himself open to any serious charge by nolle prosequis, there would have been three a fair-minded person in the cases to nolle proseguis and 23 cases in which no which I refer. I am not dealing with those indictments were presented. That must apply cases to which the hon. member is referring, not only in Brisbane but throughout the under "·hich such a charge could he levelled. I country. am not asking the Attorney-General to take Mr. Gledson: Is the Attorney-General a risk. Jt would be preferable to allow the competent to judge W indictment to be presented and the court or the jury to indicate its opinion of the evi­ )fr. Aikens: He would lay himself open dence. The only type of case with which l to a charge of conuption, and that has been am dealing is the clearly hopeless case. done. Thmc arc a number of other matters that could be dealt with on this vote but I wish ::ur. WAN STALL: That may be done in no'1 to mention particularly the procedure some cases. In any doubtful ease his duty and rules of the Supreme Comt. It is many is a clear one, that is, to present an indict­ years since there has been any real attempt ment. The cases I have dealt with are those at simplification of the procedure and rules in which the trial judge almost illYariably of our Supreme Court practice, and I make says, ''This is a case that should not go on; the suggestion that the time has nOIY arrived I shall have to take it from the jury.'' when some attempt could be made to eodify, Mr. Gledson: Then sometimes the com­ consolidate and simplify the procedure and plainant will not give evidence. rules in the many respects in which they are open to such action. I do not propose to take up the time of hon. members by dealing Mr. WANSTALL: That may be respon­ "·ith such matters in detail, because they are sible for the !'esult in some cases. In many peculiarly technical and would not be of :my cases-and I am speaking from experience­ interest to hon. members, but I am sure the the only evidence the Crown has is the deposi­ Attorney-General has on his file a number of tions. The Crown Prosecutor opens on the suggestions that have come from the legal depositions before him, and the judge eitheT profession and these would be augmented by on the Crown opening or at the end of it, a lm·ge number of other suggestions that intimates that it is a case in "-hich a nolle could be very easily obtained by him and prosequi should be entered. I appreciate the incorporated in the procedure and rules. difficulty of the Attorney-General in exer­ Those I have in mind would be in the cising this discretion. I suggest to him interests of the public generally, would theTe are a. number of cases in which he simplify litigation, and save the time of the would save public Tevenue and the time of courts. 'l'hey would be a. step towards the the judges and the expense of the accuserl perfection of justice, a principle to "·hich hy exercising his discretion not to present a we all subscribe. tnw bill. In all those ca.~es, if further evidence was found, he would be perfectly within '!'he hon. member for Toowoomba, when his rights to present a subsequent indict­ speaking on the Chief Ofiice vote a few ment. I am making it quite clear that I am evenings ago, urged the nationalisation of not speaking of the border-line cases or the the legal profession. I must confess that I doubtful cases, in which it is the Attorney­ have a considerable regard for the opinion of General's clear duty to indict the accused; the hon. member on most things but he has but in those cases where there is no chance fallen from grace for making such a foolish whatever of conviction and as soon as the suggestion. We are all entitled to our matter is opened before the judge he indi­ opinions and I do not intend to criticise cates that it is such a case that it would him for holding an opinion but I do criticise' he a. waste of time to proceed further '"ith l1im for advocating seriously the nationalisa­ the trial, I put it to the Attorney-General ton of the profession. No benefi·t would that he could well take the advice of his come to the public by doing so. I remind Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 861 him that no country in the world, with the Justice Philp said, as published in the Queens­ exception of Soviet Russia, although many land Reports of 31 January, 1942- have advanced a great distance along the ,' I am unable to understand the board's road of nationalisation, have ever seriously attitude in objecting to the production of contemplated the nationalising of the legal the record if it had nothing to hide. Its profession. A success might be made of entry as a public body is to assist the nationalising the medical and teaching profes­ administration of justice. Its very objec­ sions but no success would ever accrue from tion to produce the record, without assign­ nationalising the legal profession because its ing any reason therefor, would raise sus­ verv nature makes that utterly impossible. picion it had something to hide, and would Some of the greatest benefits that the public alone be good ground for forcing the derive from that so little appreciated band production.'' of people who comprise the legal profession That referred to the depositions before the are-- lower court that Dr. Max Michel had asked for and been refused. On two previous occa­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. sions I had spoken on the case, purely on the membel' is wandering from the vote before assumption of medicine, and when the doctor the Committee. approached me, after approaching most hon. members of the Opposition and not being Mr. WANSTALL: I am endeavouring to able to get them to bring the case before keep to it and as this is the Supreme Court this Parliament I had the temerity to sum up vote I submit you will beaT with me. I will and decide 1vhJther tl1e doctor was right or not deal with it at any great length. I wrong because I had no evidence before me. am pointing out that one of the greatest Furth~rmore, before I would bring the case benefits derived by the public from the before this Parliament I had to study a few practice of law in its present set-up is that textbooks on medicine, so that I could have particulal' f0arlessness on the part of advo­ some understanding of the subject involved cates whether they are attacking the Govern­ -cndocrinology. I brought the case before ment, the highest authority in the land, or the Assembly and later produced the cle~osi­ the wealthiest and the most fil'mly entrenched tions here to prove that my two previous mouopolists. speeches, which were based purely on ass;n;np­ tion were correct in both law and mecllCme. If you nationalised the profession, you That was on 4 September, 1946. On that would have everybody paid out of the same occasion not one of the metropolitan Press pay envelope, and you would lose the inde­ printed my speeches, but one weekly journal pendence and fearlessness in .advocacy that did, and this is what it said- are so characteristic of the profession and so '' Perjury Charges. valuable to the public. I do deprecate the '' 'Bombshell' Barnes Causes Sensation in suggestion, coming from the hon. member for Parliament. Toowoomba, and I have no doubt that on more mature reflection he will realise that ''Why did the entire metropolitan Press he spoke without that usual thought that he suppress one of the most sensational gi,·es to his speeches. charges ever made in the Parliament of Queensland on 4 September~ Was it Mr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (4.16 because the charges were made by Mr. p.m.): Having had 30-odd applications Frank Barnes, member for BundabergW" before the Supreme Court, and lost only They have a picture of me stanclifl:g there one minor one, and apart from my numerous with my helmet and two bombs, while hon. other applications I therefore have had members are mnning away for fear I should more experience than most laymen in throw them. Without going into detail as to court work, and I am qualified to say what this weekly paper said, I quote the something about justice. The other following from the second-last paragrauh :- night the hon. member for Toowoomba ''That is the substance of the sensational wept buckets of blood over my terrible state­ charges made by Mr. Barnes,-the most ments :tbout justice. Up till that time I had sensational disclosures since the Mungana. great respect for the hon. member for and Brennan bribery cases-yet not a line Toowoomba. I thought that alt110ugh he was appeared in the daily Press." a ''Yes'' man in matters of finance, he was Then they go on to quote the Queen Caroline a man who would speak his mind in other ease, the case in which Queen Caroline, a respects. On this occasion he found it daughter of one of the German princes, necessary to come forward and defend the married the king of the day, and she was Government because of my claim :about the tried without even having anyone take clown injustice administered by the department evidenco for her. The court was 100 per with which we are dealing. Up to that time cent. packed. That case is one of the text­ I had admired him, and had thought that book cases that all solicitors learn about although he was only a "Yes" man when when going through their examination. That it came to caucus control, he would exercise paper compared this case with the Queen his right to spe.ak in this Chamber. Caroline case. If the hon. members for Toowoomba and On that occasion I referred to the Full Baroona are sincere, v;hy do not they not do Court appeal of Dr. Max Michel. I pointed something about having this matter br?u~ht out what one of the Full Court judges said to a head~ I asked for a royal commission in his finding. In that appeal c,ase Mr. and I asked that the depositions be tabled; 862 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

1 asked questions and trieu in every way I me out on my pink ear and so the nccessi 1y could think of to get the depositions but for more Supreme Court actions arose. was refused, but I alreadv had what I There is another aspect of this case that was asking for. I the;·efore brought I should like to deal with, a very sore ques­ documentary evidence to prove 65 points tion of law, that of waiver. I have heart! of perjury and if the hon. members the opinions of numeTous judges on the sub­ fOl' 'l'oowoomba and Baroona wore honest theY ject. We should pass a law to sa~ that would force the Government to have ai1 waivcT can operate only when specifically inquiry and have the people who committed expTessed by the client himself aml not to perjury committed for trial. ?\ o, they do depend on the client's counsel, who may be not do that. Why'? Because, Mr. l\Iann, such ignorant of that law. Suppose that a man has an inquiry \\'OUld expose not only the medical a. case and he goes to court. Sometimes he officer who ~was one of their c,ervants but one finds that he has to comply with the Statute of the Executive Council who was party to it. of Frauds or the Statnte of Limitations and On 4 April, 19,10, they moved a regulation bar­ other thino·s but that he has not given the ring a doctor the right to receive the deposi­ requiTed ,;-~tice OT has not done something tions, from the lower com·t_ The depositions within the required time. Let me Tevert were in the hanrls of the people concerned and once more to the Dr. Michel ease. 'rhe Full the depositions in the lower eourt >I'L're oppo­ Court held that DT. ~lichcl had lost his right site to or different from the depositions in the on one point because he had not taken a next court. I produced statement after state­ certain obiection before the lower court. f-Ie ment by the Medical Assessment Tribunal. otjccted "to Dr. 0lento 's sitting ~s an That was why nothing was done. These guys assessor on the JYicdical Assessment Tnbunal and the Medical Board that WL're conflicting lwcause Dr. Cilento as president of the get up and pretend to weep buckets of blood Medical Boanl had acted as prosecutor, judge, and do nothing about the documentary starter, refeTee-the whole lot-in the case evidence before this Assembly. before the Medical Assessment Tribunal. Dr. ;\Iax Michel went to the Full Court of Queens­ '!'here are sewral other things I should like land and that was one point of his defence. to speak about and one is this: Tf any man goes to the Supreme Court and wins an action .Judge Philp rulecl in his favour but the other he should not lose. You can call that Irish two judges were against him because he had or eaU it what :vou likP, hut that happens not exercised his right in the lower court. today. 1 went to the Supremo eomt with the ;)Ir. Wanstall: He had not objected. biggest constitutional issue ever before· thP JUr. ,J. F. BARNES: Yes. When he came courts of Queensland. I got a decision in my before the Full Court he objected to Dr. favour but in getting it I lost £75. Where Cilento 's sitting as an assessor. Remember is there justice in that? I won and I lost £75. that he did not have the evidence when he In other cases the loss might be greatt>r was before the lower court to enable him to because I sa>-ed mvself much cost. As the know what happeneli before the Medicnl hon. member for · Kurilpa said, '' Barnes Beard aurl so he could not know that Dr. instructed his own eounsd. '' I saved extra Cilento had been judge, starter a.nd referee. {lOst by partly instructing counsel. I say it is Therefore I hold that the two Judges who wrong in principle for any man-not neces­ ruled against him were wrong· in that a sarily the hon. member for Bundaberg-to client must not be taken to have waived a go to the Supreme Court, win, a11d come out right against himself in . respect of som.e­ losing. He is entitled to come out winning, thing that he knows notlung ahont-he chcl if he wins. But the la>v is so made; it has not have the evidence when he was before not been altered and it embarrasses the 01·din· the lower court. Therefore, ho1Y could he ary small man ~who goes to court. ~When I object to Dr. Cilento 's sitting as an assessor became a member of this AssemblY I told the on the ::\fedical Assessment Tribuntl? When people of Bundaberg that there were two he went to the Full Comt of Queensland laws, one for the~ rich and on0 for the poor. Dr. Max Michel should haYc 11·on his <"asc I found there were three laws, one for the on that point, but he did not >vin it on that Tich, one for the poor, and one for members point; he won it on other points and so it of Parliament, but I can go further and say does not matter a great den!. My cont:n­ that therp are nmv four laws, ont> for the tion is that we should pass n ln11· to providP rich, one for the poor, one for members of that an act of waiYer shall not br sustained Parliament, and one for somp members of unless it is rlone bv the client himst>lf. Parliament. T happen to be in the latter EYcry time a case · goes to conrt thNe category, alone with my friends the hon. mem­ bers for Mnndingburra and Bowen. There is one solicitor on one sicle and one on th2 other, or mw harrister on one should be one law- and one law only. sidE' and one on the other. One wins lUr. Wanstall: I should resent that. and the other loses. Therefore one is wrong 50 per cent. of thP time. How can Mr. J. F. BARNES: You can please a client be held responsible for n technica I yourself about that. As proved time and time default in law when the client knows noth­ again, e>·erything was done to me in spite of ing about a certain mat~er and hi~ so~icito~ the fact that I warned them what the law was. or barrister knOIYS nothmg a bout It either. I warned the Government on this particular I am not now referring· to Dr. M ax i\fichel 's occasion that they could 110t do what they did case, but to one of my own, but as. I have to me. The;~• forced me to go to the court had so many T cannot just recall w~wh one time after time, so hindering the traffic in it >Yas. In the case- of Dr. Max l\'hchol hr the court, which is much behind schedule had not objected to Dr. Cilento 's sitting today. The:y tried to -pick me up and throw as an assessor on the Merlical Assessment Supply. (22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 863

Tribunal, and therefore it was held by the it. In this ease I took the matter to the Full Court, a majority deciding, that Dr. Full Court and I retained two counsel. Had Max Michel had waived his right in that I lost I should have been compelled to pay connection. The law should provide that the fees of two counsel briefed by the opposi­ nobody but Dr. Max Michel, the client, tion. I could have defended the case person­ should waive that right. It should not be ally but in order to close any loophole, or incumbent on the client to object in the lower avoid any danger of being wrong in law, court to Dr. Cilento 's sitting on the Medical I retained two counsel. I stated the law to Assessment Tribunal. If a barrister makes a this Parliament on the subject six years ago, mistake and the client is dumb, in that he about half an hour before I was thrown out knows nothing about it, that is no reason on the first occasion. The law as I stated why the client should be taken to have it then stands today. That was the law that waived his right in any way. Therefore I I depended on, and the law that will prevail again say it is high time that we passed a in the future. Despite the fact that I knew law specifically to prGvide that a client shall that to be the law I engaged counsel, because not be taken to have waived his 1·ight when something might have cropped up all of a he does not specifically do so. In s1wrt, it sudden that would need me to have extra should provide that only the client can waive brains beside me, in case I was caught by his right, not his counsel. That is a. very ~m·prise. However, I was not. caught by important thing. A counsel can make a very surprise. serious mistake and the mistake can arise The point is that I was not ~llowed the in not lodging an objection to a certain thing. same costs in the lower court despite the fact The law should provide that the right is that I won on appeal.. That enables a rich man not waived unless the client specifically says to have his barrister in the lower court. It that he waives that right. does not matter ahout the poorer man. It is I come now to another verv impmtant high time that the law was revised, not only aspect of 1itigation, the matter of costs. The in this but in other respects. That law \Yas Supreme Court allowed nw about £8 cost' in made in the Dark Ages and we are expected respect of my trial in the lower court when to abide by it. Most of our laws :vere made the matter went before the V'nll Uourt of in the Dark Ages. The law regardmg waiver Queensland. was made in the Dark Ages. - In the lower court, when the opposition :Mr. Pie interjected. won J-.he case, they were allowed £32 costs against •ne. Yet when I won, I only got £8 Mr. J. F. BARNES: Read Halsbury costs against them! It is high time that about it. scale of costs was altered. My daim before The CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. W. P. Wilson, stipendiary magistrate Mr. J. F. BARNES: The point is that the in the Magistmtes Court, was for £200 courts cannot command respect unless the­ damages. That was the case I lost :md had Govemment institute law that will give people to pay the opposition £32 costs. jnstice. How can the Government command respect when they send a police magistrate ~o llir. Wan stall: On your claim. the court stacked to tell the defendant, If Mr. J. F. BARNES: Yes, my claim was his name is Barnes, how the case can go before for £200 damages. I had to pay them £32 it s·tarts ~ The Government cannot command costs. I then went to the higher court on respeet for their courts if they allow a weekly the decision and I won. paper to star on its front page perjury cases and yet do nothing about it. The Govern· lUr. Wanstall: You got judgment for £25. ment. themselves are bringing the courts i~to lllr. J. F. BARNES: I won that case and disrepute, and it. is high time that somethmg got judgment for £25. My costs were based was done about 1t. on the lower scale, despite the fact that I At 4.35 p.m., won on a constitutional issue. It was Mr. DEVRIES ( Gregory), relieved the ridiculous and absolutely absurd to give me Chairman in the chair. £25. I am not allowed to talk about that. Mr. J. F. BARNES: I have another _five If I were, oh boy, I would. What I am minutes, but I will keep it for another tlme. concerned about is that I was awarded £25 damages on a constitutional issue and after Mr. PATERSON (Bowen) (4.35 p.m.): In winning that case I was allowed costs only this vote for the Sheriff and Supreme Court on the lower scale, which was equivalent to I want to speak a bout tw_o matters .t~at I about £8, agains·t their £32 costs against me. believe are very important m the admmlstra­ in the lower court and also reduced costs in tion of justice in the Supreme Court. The the Full Court. That made up the deficiency fil'St relates to certain practices that have of losing £75 in winning my case. The grown up in recent years in North Queensland Attorney-General could get up and say, "You regarding the issuing of prec~p~s and the were in the Magistrates Court; it was not selection of jurors . in . cnmu~al. ca~s. necessary for you to have a barrister; you I made certain suggestwns m a BlJTIIlar diS­ could have had a solicitor and it would have cussion either last year or the year before been cheaper." The Attorney-General has not that and as the matter has not yet been had the experience in law that I have had. a tte{1ded to I am going to raise it again. They had a barrister in the lower court. l<'or the benefit of hon. members I might Whv should I have a solicitod I was forced oc1tline the practice that prevails in issuing to brief a barrister. At the same time I the precept for j~ri~s and the. practice. that was not allowed his costs. The Government paid prevails in the cnnnnal court m selectmg a their barrister full costs. He lost nothing by jury. The general practice is th::t t a 864 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. precept is issued, · and ordinarily the panel, only in cases where more than one number of jurors selected or set out in person is actually on trial for a particular the precept is 48. Then when the trial begins, offence. if it is a case in which one person is accnsetl, his counsel has the right to ehallenge, in the The other matters I wish to deal with are sceond round, l:J of those JUrors. instances in which juries bring in a verdict of not guilty after the judge has strongly Mr. Aikens: Has he not an unrestricted urged that they should bring in a verdict right to challenge in the first round? of guilty. J!'requently juries are condemned for this. The particular cases to which I ~Ir. PATER§ON: Yes, in the first round wish to refer are those in which provocation the Crown Prosecutor representing the Crown is the cause of the act 1hat constitutes and counsel representing accused have an the offence. Unfortunately, under our law umestricted number of challenges; but very provocation is not a defence in cases of often that means nothing bee a use they both grievous bodily harm. Strange to say, for exercise their rights to the full and they come s-ome reason best known to its founder, to the second round. In the second round the the late Sir Samuel Griffith, our criminal Crown Prosecutor still has an unrestricted law provides that provocation shall be a BmBber of challenges, and the counsel for defu1ce in an ordinary case of assault, and the accused has only 12 challenges. That is assault occasioning bodily harm, and can be the law as it stands. There is no doubt that a partial defence, in a case that normally is it was the intention of the I.egislature that one of wilful murder or murder and thereby when a man is put on his trial for a criminal reduces it to manslaughter, but provocation offence, in that second round his counsel is no defence whatever in a case of assault should have one-quarter the number occasioning grievous bodily harm. I know of challenges the Crown Prosecutor has. But of one Appeal Court judge in the years gone sometimes there are cases when more than one by who strongly criticised this anomaly in our prisoner is up for trial in connection with criminal law, ancl if my memory serves me the same offence. It may be that two persons correctly it was the late 1\Ir. Justice Real. or three are being charged or, ns I know from He pointed out that the defence of provoca­ my own experience in one case, four. In all tion is based on the recognition of the fact cases the Crown Proscr•.utor himself would that sometimes a man, either through insult condude-and rightly so in many cases­ or some other cause, is in fact ·deprived of that the ordinary panel of 48 is insufficient his self-control. The Criminal Code provides and he would apply to the judge of the Supreme that in some cases one of the elements that Court for an order to increase the panel mus-t be proved for the defence is that as a aecording to the number of persons charged. result of the insult or some other factor the To my knowledge on one occasion the panel accused was in fact deprived of his self­ was increased from 48 to 84, but notwith­ control. Then, strange to say, the law goes standing that fact the number of ehallenges on and states that he is not entitled to this given to a particular accused was not defence if he does anything that is likely to increased. It is all right in cases with cause death or grievous bodily harm; in other four or three or two accused because words, there is the contradictory principle the counsel for the accused can sever that although the man is deprived of his his challenges and have 12 challenges for self-control, he is supposed to retain sufficient each accused. But is is very unfair ,.-hen the self-control to use just sufficient force not court proceeds to deal with those cases in to go beyond the barrier 1Yhere he is liable which only one person is accused and carries to cause grievous bodily harm or death. on with the enlarged panel of 84 or 72, or That is the law as it exists in our Criminal whatever else it may be for the counsel for the Code, and while I have the greatest respect accused still has only the right to challenge for a former Chief Justice of this State and 12 jurymen in his second round. So if we of the High Court of Australia, the late Sir take the extreme case ·where four men were Samuel Griffith, I have never yet understood up for trial in one case and 84 jurors were summoned for selection in the trial, when how that anomaly got into our criminal law. only one person was charged with an offence The result is that juries frequently, when his eounsel, instead of having 1 2 challenges asked to find a man guilty of an offence out of 48-one in four-would have 12 involving grievous bodily harm, find on the challenges out of 84 that is one in seven. I evidence that the prisoner was provoked. All am suggesting to the Attornev-General that the elements of provocation are there. They that is yery unfair. " are able to see from the evidence that the prisoner was, in fact, deprived of his self­ I understand that in Brisbane they over­ -control. They are able to see from the came the d_ifficulty by adopting the follow­ evidence that he acted of a sudden before mg practice. The Crown Pro-secutor his temper had time to cool. All these applies for an enlarged panel, but that elements are there, but if it is an offence enl\\rged panel applies only in those cases involving grievous bodily harm they cannot in which there are two, three or four persons legally take them into consideration. They on trial. I would suggest that we either can, however, take them into consideration have the law amended so that the if the offence is one that unde-r normal prisoner will still retain the same pro­ circumstances would amount to wilful murder portion of challenges, that is, one in or murder, because they are told that in that four, or failing that that the Northern case the offence can be reduced to man­ court adopts the practice of the Brisbane slaughter if provocation exists. If the court, that is, make use of the -enlarged verdict is manslaughter the judge has the Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 865 right to impose any penalty up to and includ­ Government give serious consideration to the ing life. If he is charged with ordinary need for nationalising the legal profession assault, or assault occasioning bodily harm, the better. As a man who pmctised for m.any the defence of provocation applies, anu if a years before coming into this Parliament, I prisoner can satisfy the jury that he 1vas in should much prefer being a public servant fact deprived of his self-control, that he working for the Government as a lawyer to acted suddenly before his temper had time practising privately, if the whole of the to cool, then he is acquitted. The judge on system were nationaliseu. It is true that I that evidence would direct the jury to acquit might be able to earn more in private prac·· him, but for grievous bodily harm there is tice in some good years, and it is certainly no such defence. true that a number of lawyers can earn The result is that we have this practice much more in private practice than they springing up among jurymen. In such cases would probably ewr get under .a system of juries are loath to convict. They adopt the nationalised legal profession, but >ve have to attitude: why should they convict a man who ronsider it not from the point of yiew of \ms in fact deprived of his self-control, so whether one, two or twenty will earn mors that he did not know what he was doing and but from the point of view of service to the he was not in a· position to determine the public, and I belieye that the best way of amount of force to use even though the force he giving the best senice to the public in all used was beyond what was sufficient to cause legal matters is to nationalise the legal bodily harm and was in fact likely to cause profession. vrieYons bodily harm. If I may be pardoned Hon. D. A. GLEDSON (Ipswich~ for using the term, they say, '' 'l'o hdl 1vith Attorney-General) ( 4.48 p.m.) : The hon. the law. Morality and common sense sav member for 'l'oowong spoke about nolle that he is not gui'rty," and they bring in ~ pro,equis. He made the .astounding sugges­ wrdiet of "Not guilty." It is silly to ha Ye tion that the Attorney-General should t1ke this sort of thing perpetuated. Why not l0t certain advice and decide to enter a nolle ns be honest and have the la\\' amended'! prosequi befOTe a case was brought to the Then juries could hring in an honest Yerdict court. I cannot understand such a sugges­ in accordance with the law, morality ani! tion. If I did that we should hear nothing c·ommon sense. hut squeals from the other side .a bout the Finally, I am very pleased that I had one A ttorney-Geneml 's being judge and jury in supporter in the hon. member for Toowoomba those cases. in advocating a policy of nationalisation of the legal profession. I believe that has got ::lir. Aikens: They would be the first to to come. I was pleased to notice that the a ecusc you of corruption. hon. member for Toowong, while he is opposed llir. GLEDSON: I suppose they would do to it, nevertheleRs recognises that there may that even without my entering a nolle he sound reasons for nationalising the prosequi. In the first place I point out to medical profession, hut the reasons that hon. members that an accused person is taken could be advanced against the nntionalisation before the stipendiary magistrate. His ease of the medical profession are just as weak is heard and he has the right to employ and unsound as those that can he advanced rlef<:>nding counsel. After hearing the evi­ against the nationalisation of the legal pro­ d<:'nce, the magistrate al'l'ives at his deeision. fession. It is absurd to suggest that If he decides that there is a case against vou would have one eommon basis for the accused he commits him for trial before payment. \Ve shall not. We have a the Supreme Court. The hon. member for nationalised teaching profession in our Toowong asks me, after the magistrate has primary and secondary Government schools. heaTd all the evidence and arriv·cd at a All the teachers in our State schools decision in the lmver court, to take the aclYice are public servants. vVe haYe nationalised the of certain officers and agree to enter a nollll teaching profession in those State schools bnt prosequi. we haYe not a common basis of payment. )Ir. Wan stall: You did it in three cases_ K o-one 1vould suggest that in the teaching profession of the State schools there is not -:!Ir. GLEDSON: did that on three plenty of room for initiative. No-one \YOnld occasions, when >Ye had no case. One case suggest thnt onr t-eachers throughout the en me from a coroner's inquest. A person was State are at the one low level of mediocritv. committed and the whole of the advice in that Such a suggestion would be absurd because Tegard was that there was no case to go before !n this nationalised t<-aching profession there t lH:' court. I have a list of cases here that I 1s ample scope for showing initiative because could give to the Committee in which I was initiative will mean that a teacher will rise nrommended to enter nolle proseqnis-some from one class to another or will go from were of wide public interest-and I refused he a dma stcr of one school to he,admaster of a to enter nolle prosequis. In some of the cases, higher school, and so on throughout the when they went before the court, my opinion length and breadth of the whole educational was confirmed and not the legal advice I had profession. got. At least some persons 1ver0 acquitted and others 1vere found guilty of the charges )Ir. Turner: And strive for it. against them. The matter of entering a nolle Ill'Oscqui Jir. PATERSON: And strive for it. And the same is true with regard to th2 leO'al when a case comes before me is one for serious profession. I believe that the sooner tl1is eonsideration and such a decision would nnt be give11 by me unle.~s there were strong J946-2E 866 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. grounds that there was no case. I have said in Yery few instances. It is done not so much that it is a matter for the judge and jury to with the idea of saving expense on the part hear the evid-ence and decide whether a of the Crown as to give the complainant and prisoner is or is not guilty. I could illustrate the general public the measure of justice to a case of the Crown against a man in which 11·hich they are entitled. the question was whether the duck was aliye The hon. member for Bowen refened to or dead. ;j my panels and I promise him that I will 1\:Ir. Pie: What duck was that? look into the matter. If there is any differ­ ence between the procedure adopted in the .iUr. GLEDSON: Hon. members may :Supreme Court, Brisbane, and in the circuit laugh, but to be serious the whole question or K orthern courts >Ye will endeavour to have was whether the duck was :Jlire or dead. it rmnedied so as to give an r~ecnsecl or his Because they were not sure that the duck was eounscl the rights that art> ,n-ailable to them alive the case was not allowed to go to the :in Brisbane. jury. On the subject of causing grievous bodily I ha>·e particulars of other cases before harm or being guilty of m:msl:mghter I can me. ~'or instance, there was the case in which only say that the provision was in the a. man was charged with manslaughter in Criminal Code been use, I understand, of the running down a person. I refused to enter scriousnpo,s of the offences that were taking a nolle prosequi because I thought it was for plaec. ProYo>cation is taken into account, but the judge and jury to say whether h0 was that does not mean, fm- instance, that an hon. guilty of manslaughter. The judge said that member can jump across the floor of this that th~re was no evidence to bring before the Chamber and c-.ausc seTious bodily hann to jury and that he would have to direct them another hon. member who displeases him. If to find him not guilty. The Crown Prosecutor the bodily harm is o1lly a tnp on the side of entered a nolle prosequi. The judge said the lug or a clip of the car, there is no very there was no case to go before the jmy and serious offence, and provocntion is taken into he advised the jury to find the man not account. In the c~se of grievous bodily harm guilty. This cas·e was one for the judge and or murder, proyocntion is not justification. Jury to decide and not the Attorney-GeneTal, Any punishment should be tempered with and whilst I hold the portfolio of Attorney­ mercy, and an :1ccuscd ]JPrson h~s the right General I will not determine those cases and to plead provocation so long as he has not set myself up as an authority to say wlrcther oYerstepped the mark to the extent of inflict­ a man is guilty or not if he has c·aused bodily ing grievous bodily han11. That is the reason harm to someone else. for the proYision. If an alteration to the I eould illustrate cases from the country Code in this Tespect is Tequired it will have in which the recommendations haye been to to be done by Parliament, and perhaps when enter a nolle prosequi but a nolle· prosequi the Criminal Code is next being reviewed the has not been entered. From my own district suggestion made by the hon. member con­ a case was submitted to me with a recommen­ cerned will be looked into. dation that I enter a nolle prosequi but I lUr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (4.59 refused, saying, ''No, the men have been p.m.): I want to Tcply to the l'emarks of the committed by the magistrate and the decision hon. member fol' Toowoomba and the hon. will lie with the judge and jury.'' This member for Bowen concerning the nationalisa­ also was a motor-caT case. The judge said tion of justice. No single layman has had he could not find evidenc'" to connect the more experience in law than I, and I do not second man and that he would have to rrddse think anyone will attempt to take that record the jury that there was not sufficient evidence, from me. I have figured as prosecutor in and the Crown Prosecutor enh:rcd a· nolle 29 cases in the l01rer court and as prose~utor prosequi. in one case in the Full Court. I have been There was also the case in which rr man both complainant and defendant, but mostly was committed for trial on a charge of rape the complainant. of a woman. The ease went on, a nolk I am one person who is in a position to prosequi was entered because the complain· judge whether the law shoulc1 be nationalised ant refused to give evidence in the Snprmn(' or not. My only complaint of the law is in Court. Despite all the encleaYolHS of the the fact that the Government exercisP judge and the Crown Prosecutor to get her to influence on certain magistrates, &e. If the' speak, she abs.olutely refused to budge. ThPrP law was nationalised the influence ,,·onld be• was no alternative for the Crown Prosecntor far greater. You renwmber the nvtOTiou' hut to enter a nolle prosequi. case at Capalaba, in which I flattened the I haw given some examples from the :2:~ police magistrate and flung everything at cases in which that procedure has been him bar the lino on the floor, and that was follmved and the Tensons for it. I ha>·c only because there was no lino on the floor. decided in verv few cases, perhaps four or I defamed him anYas no sound case I told him of the corruption of the court, against the offender concerned. The persons and I was not asked to apologise to him. were accused either by wav of complaint or nor was I committed for contempt. My object in the course of police action and committed in bringing that case on was to prove that for trial, and in my opinion such cases should there was no chance in winning a case against go on to the higher court unless there are the Government. You remember well the good and sound reasons to the contrary. I person I sued. It was the ex-landlord of baYe exercised my authority in that respect my hotel at Bundaherg. He had brought me Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 867 to court on 16 applications, and I \YOn 15 of Mr. WANSTALL (Toowong) (5.4 p.m.): them. I used him to expose the injustice I want to comment on the reply of the of the courts in Queensland. In doing so I Attorney-General to my statement that he abuser] the court. The reason why I did that should have used his discretion in filing· no was that that particular magistrate was true bills in certain cases. He was right partially nationalised, inasmuch as he was when he said that there are certain eases in fully controlled by the Government. The >vhich it is his duty not to file an indictment, same thing applies to W. P. Wilson, \Yho bc~ause there have been three such cases in behaved like a criminal in my constitutional the last financial year. Therefore we are court case. ·when I walked out of the court on common ground to that extent-that he I felt like abusing him, which I did not >Yant has power to refrain from indicting somt' to do. He was influenced by the Govern­ persons against whom the stipendiar~· ma~·is­ ment. If he was influenced by the Govern­ that. has found a prima-facie case. ment-- 'l'he whole difference between us is the J!r. GLEDSON: Mr. Devries, I object to difference of degree. Amongst those of the these sort of accusations against magistrate~ 23 nolle-prosequi cases that he did not cite, and judges. It is going too far. I asl' that there were some in which he could well have the hon. member be requested lo withdraw exercised the same discretion that he exer­ that statement that :\fr. Stanley \Vilson, one cised in the three. Although it may take of our leading stipendiary magistrates, and courage, the administration of justice on some a man respected all over the State, could lw occasions demands such action on the part of influenced by the Government in anv decision the person holding the impOTtant semi-judicial he gives. · · office of the Attorney-General. In him is The TEfiiPORARY CHAIR.MAN: Order! repos,~Yhole point between us is one of degree. 1 do :-.ay that he should approach his duties ~Ir. .J. 1<'. BAR.NES: The Attorney­ with a very much firmer tread in some of General has asked that I withdraw a reile~tiOJl these cases' than he has taken in the past. on Mr. Stanlcy \Vilson. God bless n-,- son] I mu not entering into any argument in regard if I ever do! He is an honest· man. to the cases which he cited-in those. I did not reflect on ::\fr. Stanley Wilson I ap;l'ee, his proper duty wa& to allow them but on Mr. W. P. Wilson. I therefore to go to the court-or in the border-line will not withdraw it. If the Attomev­ eases. It is the others, the clea·r case.g, in Goneral asks that I withdraw the reflection which there was no evidence to go to the jnr:v, on Mr. W. P. Wilson, I will. to which I refeT. 'I.' he TEMPO R.AR.Y CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. member is reflecting on the judiciary, I mnke the point that I did not make earlier and I ask him to withdraw. •.·.-hen I spoke on the question of nationalisa­ tion of the legal profession. The most impor­ ~Ir. J. I<'. BARNES: I am entitled under tant p~rt of the kgal profession's fluty con­ the .standing Orders, to reflect on ; police sists in championing the causE'< of the private mag1strate, but I am not entitled to l'eflect citizen ag:1inst the Sovereign. The hon. on judges of the Supreme Court. I am not member for Bundnbcrg is a case in point. reflecting on judges of the Supreme Court, J should shndder to think of the hon. member I am merely reflecting on a magistrate of having- to depmd on a nationalise(] lawyer to the lower court. If the hon. member asks ]'resent his nrgunrnt and represent him in that I withdraw my reflections on :\fr. \V. P. some action he had taken against the Sove­ Wilson I will do so. reign represented by the Government. To illustTate it I need not enter upon such eon­ Jtir. GLEDSON: The b,on. member for tron'-rsinl ismos as the hon. member foT Bundaberg says he did not reflect on Bnndabrrg did_ Vlfe only have to look at Mr. Stnnley Wilson but he did reflect on some of the very involv,erl anrl big constitu­ Mr. \V. P. Wilson. He says he wns influencec1 tional rases fought in the High Court during by the Government in his decisions. 'l'hat the lnst five or six years, in which some small is a reflection on the judiciary and I a~k nYerngr little shopkeerrer or citizen found it tlwt it be withdrawn. · nrrrssnrv to issue a writ against the Common­ The TE:rtiPORAR.Y CHAIRMAN: Order! "·ealth of Australia reprsenting the Roverei_gn The hon. member in saying that the Govem­ in Allstralia. Take the case of ::\fr ..Tames, ment influenced a magistrate to do a certain for p-,~mple. There lwve been many eases thing is reflceting on the judiciary. The hon. i1n-oh·ing constitutional issues. anc1 appellants member is not in order anc1 I 3,790 be granted for 'Titles Government will refund 50 per cent. Assist­ Office.' '' ance to importers of pedigreed stock will '!'his represents nn increase of £G,71ll, of cost £1,000, of which the State bears one­ which salaries will nbsorlJ £5 787 nnd contin­ thin], the balance l eing Lol'lle equally gencies £929. 'l'he work ~f the oftit~ is hdween the Commonwealth Government and inc1:easing rapidly, as indicated by the fol­ the Commonwealth Bank. Provision for the lowmg comparativE' ··tatement for the first ''Queensland Agricultuml Jomnal'' has beell quarter of this nnd last financial year- increased by £350 to meet the cost of thl' proposed special jubilee issue about July of 1945-46. 1946-H. next year. The Stock Diseases Compensa­ tion Fund will require £230 more than last Collections .. £20,436 lls. 4d. £36,54 7 2s. lld. year. This is a grant from consolidate,] Documents lodged 13,333 22,967 Number of Deeds reyenne on the basis of 50 per cent. of the dealt with 13,160 30,358 collections from the levy on milk. The '"Tant in gePL•t·:ll is due to the extension Provision has been made thencfore for of the 'activitie, of the Department of Agri­ salaries for 21 additional officers. U ncler culture and Stock. whirh eovers m;~ny ramifi­ contingencies provision is made for n•tirino• cations and embTilcCJ the production' of most al!owance, &c., of £395. n of the primary \YCalth in the State. UnlesH one follows the depm·tment 's activities closely, lUr. lUARRIO'fT (Bulimba) (5 10 p.m.) : the wealth produced by our primary industries Durng the debate on the Chief Office Yote is surprising, so tlwt it might be as well to wh~n an hon. memb~r was speaking of com: giw a brief reYicw of them. plamts as to delays m having btLiucss tram­ acted at the Titles Office r' made an inter­ Hon. members will nppreeiate that a good jection and the hon. meml;cr implier1 that the ileal of production cannot lw measured. For delay was really due to the Commonwealth instance, there is the fooc1 eonsumed by the Sub-Treasury. 1 pointed out bv interjpction people who are living on the land and making that the delay occurred after the decks had a living from it, and then there are the fruit been cleared by the Sub-Trcasnrv and at the and ,-cgetables gro>Yn by eity and town Title~ qffice. The hon. gL•ntlema;; was rathPr dwellers- as well as the poultry, with tlre attendant eggs, produced b3' these people. caustic m return but he proeeeded to cxpl11 i11 that the delay in the Titles Office had to But the measuret] proc1ndion in this Stak be excused because the ofllce "-as overcroi\'C1er1 in 1944-45 was valued at £()2,949,000. In with work and staff had to be trainer] I the previous year it was \Yorth £63,190,000. appreciated the statement made bY m{otlter ~\Vhen we analyse what goes to make up that hon. member, I think the hon. nH~ml1cr for total we find that the grain crops of the Baroona, who read from a small brochure Rtnte were worth £3,185,000 in 1944-45, and issued by the Attorney-General showing- that green forag-e was estimated as being worth the amount of work clone in the Titles Office £", 12-i,OOO. OthC'r pror1ncts were worth- during the wa·r period as a record if not Hay £1,240,000 for Australia, certainly for G2ueensla{rd. ThP Sugar-cane £9,984,000 Attorney-General also referred to it. for Fruit . . £3,076,000 which I thank him. I have no desire to cast All other crops £4,618,000 any reflections on th2 alJility or workmanship '!'he total for the agricultural industry was of the staff of the Titles Office. Far be it from £24,221'\,000. n:e to harbour any su<'11 thoughts. T appn•• crate _what they are trying to do and I wish The total for sheep-raising, ineluding wool. to brmg that point out. 'rhe staff have been \Yhich 1ms >vorth £11,401,000 in that year. was actually ovenvhelmed with WOTk because of £13,204,000; cattle-raising, £10,107,000; dairy ~he large number of transfers of propertic:< production, £1,718,000; pig-raising, £2,87\1,000; m connection with home-building during the and poultry, £1,749,000. past year. I thank the Attornry-Genern1 for A great deal of administrative \York is making the point ob,-ious. · done b3· the Department of Agriculture am] Vote (Titles Office) agreed to. Stock in administering Acts of Parliament affecting these indnstries, in all about 60, so DEPART-..fENT OF AGRICUI/fURE AXD STOCK. that the officers of the department, in addition ADMINISTRATION, to a good knowledge of agriculture in all itR phase,, must possess :1 great knowledge of Hon. H. A. COLLINS (Cook-Secretary for Agriculture and Stock) (5.14 p.m.): I !m...- also. moYe- The season we have come through in the " That £102,524 be granted for 'Depart­ ye.ar under review was in general a fairly ment of Agriculture a-nd Stock-Adminis- good one until about March of this year; and tration. ' '' production was well maintainBd after the good Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 869

rains in March until May, but since that time :rtrr. COLLINS: Up to the present, on a great area of the State suffered from any kind of property, according to our way of extremely bad drought conditions. Some of looking at things, it is for the stockowner to the districts that suffered worst were in the make the provision. It is not a matter for the Central area, including Rockhampton, Monto, Government. and thereabouts. They are experiencing pro­ Lably the driest time they have had. .lUr. Sparkes: To provide the trucks?

At 5.21 p.m., ~Ir. COLLINS: The trucks are available. I do not say that they are always available The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair. nor do the Government provide trucks for eYerybody just when and where they want JUr. Sparkes: Would you say the South­ them but the Government do give a sen·ice in west was very dry~ that respect, and a good service too. Jir. COLLINS: Particularly dry. I men­ The big que Jtion is, ''·what can be clone tioned the Central district because from what to counter the effects of drought~'' I ha Ye people haYe told me present conditions there said on previous occasions, and I repeat it ;1 n· the worst they have ever known; they ngnin now, that it is something that must be mP probably as bad as those that existed tackled Yery determinedly by the Yery people in the 1902 drought, if not worse. Over a who 0\Yn the stock, although it is the province gTcat part of the far-western area of the of the Government to give them what reason­ State drought conditions still prev,ail; the able assistance they can. Anyone who has south-westem portion has had good rains travelled the \Yestern part of the State must lWcntly, and the country is picking up con­ know that we have some remarlmbly good siderably. Right along the North Coast, so natnral grasses that stand up to dry concli­ far as Caims, rlrought conditions have affected tions better than those of any other <·o,mtrv sugar-cane production and the maize and in the world nnd that we hn\·c also soHJe o'f llnir~·ing industrie~ on the Atherton Table­ the best fodder trees to offset the disastrous lmHl Yery seriously. It is rather an anomaly, effects of drought. Look at the help thnt perhaps, that the maize industry on the is obtained from the mulga hce, which A thcrton T,a hlcland was affected by too much gTows naturally in some westeTn pnrts of the rn ia early this year and the dail-ying industry State. It is one of the best of th<> tree today is adversely affected by not having stock feeds we have and the people who have sufficie:1t. So that in the same year you get grazing propPTties ennying mulga should not i1oor1s m one area and later a drought, both hesitate to regenerate it. They could do causing ,a good deal of loss in production. this important work by allowing reserves to be Actually our sheep and wool industries are held available in time of drought and in such the premier industries, I should say, of this a wav that their stock will not have too far !';tnte in point of value produced. to wall< for feed and water. My depm-tment is only too willing to co-operate in this connection. The people 1vho are interested Jir. ::uacdonald: In wealth? in the grazing industry and know its difficul­ ties inside out, better in many respects than IUr. COLLINS: In money value. That I as Secretary for Agricultme and Stock, lws really been so since the inception of agri­ are fnllv awa1:e of thP value of a reserve of cultnre, and it is tragic to see in some parts of the State drought conditions affecting mulga for use in dry weather. 'l'heTcfore, those industries. That brings one naturally why not retain certain areas and hold them to the question what can be done to prevent to offset the devastntion of drought~ the ravages of drought not only in the wool :rtrr. :l!acdonald: Almost every grazier is industry, but also in the cattle and dairying doing that. industrips, as well as those industries depen­ r1ent upon livestock for their continuance. :rtrr. COLLINS: If that is so, why are In making a surYey as I have done during there so many deputations from this indm,tr,v the last month or so over a great part of the to me actually for financial help, for payment Rta te, and in some of the parts of the State from consolidated reYenue to recoup them most affected, I have be,·n struck by the their stock losses~ We ha \'e no desire to fact that whilst there have been terrific interfere in the management of a holding any los'~es because of drought, some people in the more than is absolutely necessary, but if drought-affected areas are getting through there are to he eontinued requests for mone:v 1vithont a very considerable amount of loss. to replace stock losses consequent on drought the Goyemment IYill virtuallv haY<.' to exer­ I know that some people will criticise me cise some control over the ·management of 11·hen I say that much could be done to make these properties. I am not going to sa:v that better pro~ision for droughts. No doubt hon. we as n Go.-ernment are going to do it but if members opposite will say that much should the GoYennnent are to l>e expected to make he done by the Goycrnment, but I believe money available free of interest and on other more could be done and must be done by both liberal terms to help the people in the grazing the Gowrnment and the people interested in industry, that presupposes that we must take the wool industry to help it along. It is steps to preYent such a catastrophe from not just a question of, ''Are you going to happening again. help me?" or, "Am I going to help you?" :rtrr. Sparkes: Do you think that the Jir. Sparkes: Well, who is to be GoYermnent can preYent the occurrence of responsible for shifting your stock~ droughts in \Yestem Queensland? 870 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. COLLINS: No, but much can be all. Then, light falls of rain in a time of done to offset the ravages of drought. If drought will destroy good feed. The whole the hon. member for Aubigny, who knows question calls for attention not only by the industry so well, says nothing can be officers of the department but by pastoralists done he is not a good representative of the themselves. great industry in which he is engaged. JUr. lUacdonald: How would you 3Ir. Sparkes: What did your Government r1etermine the carrying capacity? do when they owned Keeroongooloo? ::lir. COLLINS: That is reasonably well :JUr. COLLINS: I am trying to discuss determined already by the Land Court. one of the greatest problems affecting· our Many people who do carry out what I hnYe great grazing industry in order to try to suggested do not find themselves in very find a solution for it. If it cannot be dis­ serious trouble. A great deal of trouble is cussed in a way that will be helpful to it caused by gambling on the good seasons and then no good will come out of the debate. failing to get out of the bad. Nobody can .J'Ir. Macdonald: What can you do when deny that a certain amount of gambling is there is no top feed~ going on in that Tespect. Many men do well and others not so well, and these are inclinevho have suffered from drought to conditions than western Queensland, nor has recover. I know high prices are not much any country in the world better fodder trees good to a man who has not any sheep to than we have. It is a matter of correctlv shear, bnt the fact that the price of wool smveying both these classes of drought feed is high does increase the value of his pro­ to see whether some means cannot be perty, and "IYill naturally help him \Yhen hr deYisecl to offset the terrific drought losses wants to restock. In the cattle inclustn, that are incurred from time to time. The although drought conditions are bad, priees same anplies to cattle-rais,ing to a lesser have been particularly good over the lnst extent. " Most cattle-raising' is done on few years. country that is not overstocked. Mr. Sparkes: They always are in the ~Ir. Sparkes: What makes you say that? drought years-for fat cattle. }lr. COLLINS: Much of the Gulf country Mr. COLLINS: I do not think it is is not overstocked yet it has suffered very brought about so much by drought as by war severe drought losses. conditions, which have improved the marl,et }fr. Sparkes: That country west of and demand. Hockham]2ton is all cattle country. Mr. Sparkes: Do you mean to say the Mr. COLLINS: The Gulf country is in shortage of fat cattle is not brought about a bad way. by drought~ }Ir. Sparkes: You are contradicting }!r. COLLINS: I did not say that. The yourself. high price of cattle has been brought about not so much by the drought but by the Mr. COLLINS: I am not. In the Central better demand for fat stock, which is partly District it is not a matter of overstocking. due to the war; and the sheepmen, Some of the country there has no grass at cattlemen and dairymen have been enjoy- Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 871

ing better prices over the last few years than the body that is negotiating at the present they enjoyed at any time during the last time with the British Government and thE' 20 years. Commonwealth Government to determine 'fake the dairying industry. Although we actually what is to be done with this money are going through a pretty bad drought the and how it is to be distributed. production of butter in that industry is lUr. Pie: He has every right to do it. higher than the average over the last five years and prices ,are better than they have }Ir. COLLINS: He has every right but been for many years. According to the report while he is doing that he has not every right of the Queensland Co-operative Dairy Asso­ to blame the Commonwealth Government for ciation, the average production of butter taking £3,000,000 from the dairymen when from 1941 to 1946 was 45,080 tons and this the item has not been settled. In dis­ :·ear 45,198 tons, which shows that the pro­ cussion that is exactly what he does. r1uction this year, although we have been suffering from a drought, is higher than for JUr. Sparkes: He never said a word. th,• average previous five years. Another llir. COLLINS: I have heard him say it. ]'oint is that the sum received this year by I have read his statements in the Press an have heard some say that price is the only heen in 20 years. I suggest tlmt the hon. thing that matters. It is not. It is certainly member for Aubigny ask- the hon. memrcr an important factor, but sooner or later we for Fassifern, who tells something of the same shall have to face up to the world's parity ston·. He knows tho truth about it but that prieas on the oversea·s market. When that is something he does not tell. He is one of time comes the country that can produce most 872 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

economically will win that market. We may cases were in a dreadful condition as a rewlt be able to do something by controlling prices of not feeding. within Australia, as we have done in the past, but tlte ·export market will have to be faced llir. Macdonald: Due to frosts. eventually, and now is the time when we should Mr. COLLINS: I do not care what the endeavour to improve the economy of the condition was due to; it is a fact. In much dairying industry to the greatest possible of that country there could be a considerable extent. I am giving special attention to the conservation of fodder. Although the Agri­ dairying industry because I believe that in cultural Bank does not come under the time it will be one of the principal primary administration of my department there is industries of the State. If it is handled opportunity for every person to conserve conectly it has a great future. fodder on the farm where his stock are. If There are many ways of improving our that conservation is not done there it must dairying industry. We can improve the be done in close proximity to where the feed · quality of our cream, which is not all that is grown. I know that many dairy farr_ners is to be desired at the moment. We can also have their hands very full and are not m a improve our cattle greatly by t·esting all position to harvest lucerne ?r mal~e silos. herds, but the greatest factor affecting pro­ The Government have made It possible for duction today, apart from drought, is the advances to be made to dairy factories, which feeding of da'iry stock. Until we achieve a if they care to do it for t~e farmer ~an higher standard of feeding, until we improve spend up to £3,000 for buymg harvestmg our pastures, we are not going to get what plant, machinery an_d tractor~ to harvest it is possible for the dairying industry to silage or hay. I beheve that It. would pay produce. dairy companies to invest money m that way and do the whole job for the farmer, 'l'he dairying industry can be improved very charging the cost to him and taking it from profitably, as was illustrated the other night his returns over a period of 12 months. I by the Commonwealth Controller of Dairying, have spol{en to many ~airy_ factory manalj(ers Mr. C'hris. Sheehy, who on his trip abroad had about a scheme of this kmd and I beheve seen a herd of 170 cattle producing over that they could with a little inducement from 850 lb. of butter a cow. I am not saying that their shareholders and suppliers put a that is an ordinary production in America or machinery pool into active operation. I dsewhere, for it is ::m extraordinm·y produc­ think it would not only pay them handsomely tion, but it goes to show what is possible with but would make for continuity of supply to dairying under ideal conditions. We have everv factorv which is one of the big factors evidence in this country to show that our land, toda"y in the" ~verhead costs of running butter climate and stock are good enough to make for high production figures. vVe have herds factories. in this State producing well oveT 400 lb. of They haw very big supplies i:1 s~me parts butter a cow; many herds producing well over of the vear and verv low supplies m others. 300 lb. of butter a co1v but it is a fact that The ma~hinery pool ~ould be used to conserve we have the lowest average production a dairy fodder. If necessary the organisation could cow of any of the States of the be used to plough the land and plant _the Corn m onwea lth. crops, the cost to be defrayed by the dauy­ men. This would be one of the most for­ :J}Ir. Sparkes: You know how those cattle ward moves that could be made in the dairy­ 1n:re fed. 'L'hey are never out of the stalls. ing industry and I commend the su15gestion to the people interested. The Agncultural Jl'Ir. COLLINS: It may be that it pays to feed them that way. It may pay us to feed Dank already has power to make the ne~es­ om cattle better than we do feed them and I sary advances and I look for the co-operatiOn say that the time is approaching when a great of "the dairyi{lg people, including the butter r1eal will have to be done to improve the feed­ factories to bring the matter to speecly ing of our cattle. Tlnough the ordinary fruition.' It would enable· the dairying channels that: exist today we have the where­ industry to be placed on a very much sounder withnl so far to conserve feed on every dairy footing than it is on today. farm-pwrv worth-while dairy farm. I am Of cmHse, the throwing of a certain ~mount nllnding to" a certain class of· country I have of ('nsilage into a silo or the makmg of seen people dairying on, country with a doubt­ some sorf of hay >Yill not of itself solve the ful rainfall, very little cultivation land avail­ problem. It c'ans for a good. deal mm:e able, and small areas, and I say that that class consideration than that. For mstance, It of country is not dairying country at all. will be necessary to provide for a proper 'Unless you hnve land in the low-rainfall dis­ balance between the volume of fodder and the tricts that will grow a certain amount of size of the herd, and the silos will have to fodder naps and you are able to conserve be of such a size as >Yill proyide for a proper foddn you are running a risk with your dairy­ daily use of ensilage. If the ensilage is ing. There are some areas I do not put into exposed to the air for a certain time and is that class. not removed to a certain depth each day it will go bad. This work cannot be done ~Ir. ~Iacdonald: It is well to make that exception. haphazardly. I ap~eal to . the dairying industry, to the Council of Agnculturc, winch Mr. COLLINS: Even the land I passed is particularly interested in the mat.ter, anp through the other day is looked upon as being to the newly-formed Queensland Dauymen s in the best rainfall belt and amongst the Organisation to take the matter up. I am richest in the State but the cattle in some prepared to meet the various bodies and Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 873 discuss the matter with them to see if some­ such as the large white and Canadian Berk­ thing cannot be done, beeause until we solve shire, which are the most suitable for our the problem of properly feeding our dairy Queensland conditions. stock "·e shall 11ot get anything like as far as >Ye should with the allied problem of J.Ur. Sparkes: The large white straight­ better bTeeding. Under present conditions out or the cross~ herd-testing cannot give us a very good idea .l\Ir. COLLINS: I like the large white of what is a good cow and what is a bad straightout because after all it is essential to cow. ·while a cow has to scout about for maintain a pure-bred product. It is difficult to fC'"d and climb over fences in the process maintain evenness of quality with crossbreds, she cannot give the maximum Tesults, and 'l'he large white kills very well. One of its a fteT all the cow that gh·es the best Teturn advantages is that it is not over-:l'at. The is the best cow. BefOTe >Ye can have a proper export market will not take pigs of the s:·stem of herd-testing, we must have a proper heavier weight that we have been selling in system of feeding, so that the animal will Queensland. A pig weighing from 120 to give to iLl maximum capacity. There are 130 lb. is not the most profitable pig to handle enough organisations at the moment to take hecause it is sold when it is growing fast the r!mttcr; in hand-the Council of Agricul­ and at a time when you must put meat on it ture, the Queensland Dairymen's Organisa­ without getting it over-fat. tion, the butter factories with all their directors. and the many experts in my depart­ .l\Ir. Sparkes: What do you think of the ment. \Ye have some very valued officers in Berkshire-Tamworth cross? this connection and better use can be made of them in the matter of providing proper Mr. COLLINS: What does the hon. feed for dairv stock than is done at the member think of the Poll-Shorthorn cross 'I moment. I malw this suggestion to the people The poultq industry has gone through interested in dairying, and I offer the fullest difficult times. The men in it have be1:n co-operation of the department over which I caught by the general shortage of grain in lHCPide. I believe that very useful results Queensland, due very largely to the drought, can be ol.Jtaincd if we only bear in mind and also due to the fact that much of our the seTious effects of the present drought and gTain-particularly sorghum-got into other determine when the sea''On breaks to make States because of the black-market. Not less provision for better times. thm1 half n million bushels of grain and There arc many other matters associated sorghum have gone into New South Wales with primary production to which I can refer. at a time when we could have Yery well done }'or instance, pig-raising is an important side with that feed here. It seems wrong for ns of the dair~-ing industry, but I think pig­ to he sending grain to other States-I know Taising can be carried on not so much as a it cannot be stopped-when we are bringing side-line to dail·ying as a profitable industry grain from as far down as South Australia on its own. and Victoria. Its futme lies in that direction as well as in being an adjunct of the dairying industry. Mr. Pie: Do you know what Mr. Dedman 'rhe pig can play a very much more important said~ part in our farming than it has in the past. :Hr. COLLINS: Mr. Dedman stopped the A great quantity of our surplus grain can export of sorghum overseas to Africa. be fed to the livestock on the farm where it is grown. These feeds should be obtainable l\Ir. Sparkes: It had largely gone when at their first cost. I do not see very much he stopped it. future in buying them, transporting them to rail and having to pay rail freight, agent's lUr. COLLINS: No, it was not mostly charges, commission and handling charges at gone; some of it had gone. It did help the both ends. I know of few animals that, if industry to some extent. The poultry indus­ used economically, will pay better than the try is suffering from a shortage. I think pig under proper conditions. Pig-raising has the industry today is worth not much short increased in the last few years. A g-reat of £2,000,000 in measured production. If export market can be developed. This m0r1ns you took the measured with the unmeasured growing the right type of pig, one that is production I am sme it would he worth suitable for export. It might even be wise well over £2,000,000. for the industry to confine itself to

Mr. COLLINS: That is a fallacious state­ There is room for a great expansion of the ment, and very much like the statement made wheat industry in this country and I believ some time ago about the quantity of wheat that it will not be grown only for grain but we are allowed to grow-3,000 bushels-and used very largely with oats and other crops that the growers were getting as low as 2s. for stock-fattening. In doing that we shall a bushel for anything over that quantity-- be doing a good thing. There is provision Mr. Sparkes: It was correct at the time for the expansion of the area under wheat it was made. in Queensland. And speaking of restriction, I would remind the Committee that there is Mr. COLLINS: Like most of the hon. no restriction on the amount of whrat that n member's predictions it was entirely fal­ grower may grow for hay or fodder or for lacious. At the time they were promised grazing purposes or for livestock. Control full export value of the wheat and in some comes into the picture, just the same as cases they got more for export wheat than in sugar, only when we are trying to get a for the wheat allowed to be grown for home standard price for export wheat. There is no consumption. It was, as I told the hon. limit at present to what can be grown not member in this Chamber when he made the only in Queensland but in AustTalia. statement, very wide of the mark, like most of the hon. member's hard-luck stories in Sorghum is a crop that must inevitably connection with the man on the land, aml increase in importance in this State and at events have proved it. If the wheat-growers present we are obtaining seed from overseas of Australia are willing to carry out the for release to our growers. In distrids of legislation that has been passed bv tho Com­ summer and spasmodic rainfall it is of monwealth Government and the complemen­ importance, inasmuch that it can stand up tary legislation that must be passed by the to dry conditions'. It is also a crop that various States of the Commonwealth, they lends itself to mechanical harvesting, which is will be assured of 5s. 2d. f.o.b. for all their Rlrcady being carried out in Queensland. wheat for five years. If the export value is The fruit and vegetable industry, in th higher than 5s. 2d. they are going to get a hands of the C.O.D. from the market view­ considerable advantage on the export wheat point, is doing very well. It has enjoyed, on top of that 5s. 2d. The 5s. 2<1.. is a again like all other primary product~, excep­ :floor price and made under a contract for a tionally good prices for its products durin;:: minimum of five years. The Federal Ministe1· the last few years. In some cases prices for Agriculture and Stock and the Federal have been too high for the person with a Government have laid it down also that the large family to provide for. It is very much position ,_.m be reviewed i11 three yem·s' time to the credit of this Government that they to see if an extension of that guarantee can gave help to the C.O.D. and very much to the be made. Let us hope that it can be put credit of the C.O.D. that the organisation on a permanent basis. has been extended to the far western tO\YllS Regularity of pTices in all our primary such as Roma, Charleville, Longreach, Cairnc', products is of great importance. Fluctuating Townsville, Innisfail and other places. prices can hit the agriculturis't ana the man Sem.ible distribution of those perishable com­ on the land just as badly as drought. Time modities llas always been lacking, and we and again in this State we have havns. was a price as low as J s. 9d. a bushel to the PriYato industry did not cater proper!:· for wheat-grmyers of all States and it is· greatly the trade and it has been left to the C.O.D. to the credit of the present Federal Govern­ to do so. The inhabitants of those tom1s ment that the:· have tackled tl1ese problems, arc very appreciative of the v;ork done by which have never been tackled by previous the C.O.D. which, if it has done nothing els., Fer1ernl Govemments. The Federal Govern­ has made local distributors come down to ment are the only Government who can help ro~son~ble prices for these commodities. the State in solving the great problem. The report obtained by the Premier on th,o lUr. Brand: Queensland dealt satisfac­ possibilities of developing the canning of torily with the wheat industry by means of tropical fruit discloses great scope for expan­ the Wheat Pool. sion in this State. Again, it is pleasing to see that the C.O.D., in its usual capable· way, Mr. COLLINS: Yes, but the hen. mem­ hRs set about establishing a cannery calculated ber knows very well that it is govc1·ned by to stabilise the pineapple industry. I hope to overseas trade. see the canning of tropical fruits expa'nded to ~Ir. Brand: Of course it is. all those areas recommended by the experts as being suitable. j}fr. COLLINS: This is an opportunity that lws never been offered to the wheat­ IUr. Pie: Which towns are you going to put the eannori·2s in~ growers of A11stralia before, that of a :five­ years' guarantee at a minimum of 5'. :?d. a Jir. COLLINS: That will be determined bushel. later. The report of the expert ha's been lUr. Brand: The old export price. presented to Parliament and the hon. member is at liberty to read his recommendations. To Thir. COLLINS: The hon. member will my mind canned tropical fruit should take the have time to tell his own storv in due course, same place in quennsland as peaches, pears, anrl I must then sit and list~n to it. plums, and apples take in thE' colder southern Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 875 climates. Our tropical fruits are of great on a non-irrigated farm was about 600 lb. ralue to the householder who hitherto has of seed cotton to the acre, the production on never been able to obtain enough of them irrigated land was about 1,800 lb. to the because of the high prices. acre. Now, 1,800 lb. at 6d. a lb. gives a The cotton industry also offers great scope gTo·.1·er a gross return o~ £45 an acre ':'nder irriaation. Cotton-grown1g, moTeoveT, 1s an for expansion. ind~strv that has to go hand in lwnd with JUr. Ple: You have let cotton down. other classes of fanning. We have to realise tk1t tlwre has to Le Totation of crops to get lUr l'OLLINS: We have not let cotton the best from the soil, and this is something down~ The cotton-growers are enjoying a that we have not vet learnt properly. We higher price today, and that price ha·s been have been doing a"good deal to exploit and fixed for ilxe years. rob our land and not farming properly and JUr, JUacdonald: You are producing only putting back into it wh_at we too_k out of it 6,000 bales. in the process. Rotahon croppmg . can be practised and it has been practised m older Jir. COLLINS: Which proves that there eountries of the world. 'rhey have learnt is great scope ~or expa1:sion. Eve!I now: the the lesson there, as we are learning our~. ~Ve Director of Agnculture 1s overseas mvest1gat­ started with mining, and we are contmumg ino- the possibilities of mechanical cotton­ the process of obtaining as much from the pi~king. In the United States of America the soil as we can get out of it. With farming, industry was established many years ago, but however one cannot carry on that practice there they ha've not the labour problems that indefinitely. Mixed farming, if properly ;ve have here. Cotton was the only industry learned, will maintain the fertility of the in which the majority of the coloured popula­ land, ::md we can prevent what can become tion of America could be employed. These a very great scourge in this country, namely, colomed people weTe originally taken to soil erosion. America against their will as slaves and put to cotton-growing. Most of them have The sugar industry has suffered very remained in that industry and to introduce greatly during the war bec_a_use of a s~ortage mechanical harvesting of cotton there would of labour, shortage of fertlhs~r and th1s year be to do a disservice to the coloured races. through drought and frosts m the southern In Australia, however, we have no problem pnrt of the State. The condition of drought concerning the employment of our coloured is ge11unl throughout the sugar belt, but the frosts in southern Queensland have been people, and that b_eing ~o, we can introduce mechanical harvestmg w1th advantage to the particularly sev~re . this yea:, an~ unfortu­ people engaged in the industry and do no nately in some d1stncts the y1eld w1ll be very 1nj ury to our coloured population. low. The industry returned to the State approximate!;' £8,000,000 ~uring the la~t i\Ir. Pie: Then why have you not intro­ financial year. It is an mdustry that IS duced mechanical harvesting~ capable of being expanded, bu~ it too has _its limitations, and as we are trymg to do w1th 1Ur. COLLINS: We have mechanical other crops we are doing with the sugar cotton-haryesting now. Apparently hon. industry, co~1trolling production to the extent members opposite do not wish to learn. A!l of the market we can see for what we grow. t11ey se·em to be interested. in is decrying th1s Although the hon. member for Aubigny is Government and the State. Every statement criticising severely the limited control exer­ appearing in the Press seems to be calculated cised in regard to wheat, would he say that to belittJ.a and decry everything going on in there should be no control in the sugar the country. To read the published state­ industry~ It is only by the exercise of a ments of hon. members opposite would lead rigid control that the industry has become the one to wonder how any primary producer can great one it is today for Queensland. (Oppo­ possibly live in this country, to wonder sition interjections.) whether anybody ever did any work. All we are able to read is that somebody is on Tl1e CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. strike. No mention is made of the fact that member for Aubigny has been lon?' enou~h in possibly 95 per cent. of the community are this Chamber to know that contmual mter­ dcing honest hard work, working as hard as ruption is disorderly. I ask him to allow the anv other person in any country. If the hon. gentleman to make his speech without Press is not decrying our industries it is interruption. publishing such statements a's would lead one to believe that a person walking down the lUr. COLLINS: Any land that continually streets of Sydney ran a grave risk of being grows one crop, year in a~~ year out, parti­ murdel'ed or bludgeoned. The Press does a cularly with the use of fert1hser, must eventu­ great disservice to this country, and how we ally 1JPcome exhausted. inust look to the eyes of people overseas I Much can be done in the way of cattle­ do not know. It is a wonder to me that after fattening to a limited degree in the sugar reading what the Press publishes about this areas with cultiv-ated pastures and the fatten­ country anyone ever comes he·re from over- ing of cattle on sugar farms, even if only of sea's. a limited number. It would be a great FurthennoTe, I believe that with the adjunct to the meat industry, which is another de>clopment of irrigation, cotton-growing can sound industry. I was veTy interested to see he expanded. Tests are being caTried out at not so long ago what is being successfully present fmd the res:1lts of one experiment n re practised by Mr. Young, the manager of the r-nconrnging. ·wheTe the average production Fair:nnend plantation. 876 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Whether the sugar-growers like it or not agree that you cannot expect continually to they will have to rotate their sugar lands, have good results if you are continually which may mean that they will have to be gTowing sugar-cane on the same land. Hon. given a peak tonnage in terms of tons of membcTs of the Country Party, unfortunately sugar rather than acres of land and that they for those who send them to Parliament, know shall be allowed to produce the sugar on veTy little about the land and it would he new land and under the cheapest conditions n blessing if they were not here at all. as they see it. We must see that none of the Mr. Je'Sson: They prefer to have shares sugar that is produced is allowed to be in fertiliser companies. destroyed. That is one thing that this Government will never do so long as they Jl'Ir. COLLINS: That is one of the curses remain a Government, which so far as I of the sugar industTy-men haYe been selling can see will be for many long years to sugar faTms and investing their money in come. fertiliser shares. That is partly why the The sugar industry will have to recognise industry has been restricted on certain nrea» its own problems. It has ilone a mighty and in doing that they are still faTming the job for Queensland and it is one that I sugar farmers. That is well understood by regard as a beacon light of suceessful people outside. Hon. members of the Counhy organisation in primary industries. Without Party do not care what happens to the mnn any help from any particular Government it on the land, but we do. has of its own initiative during the last 20 I am pleased to be able to say that the years increased the production of sugar an fresh-milk trade in Brisbane stands on a acre by over 50 per cent. and it has donG fairly sound footing, after difficult times on it in the face of declining prices and at the account of drought. same time it has built up a tremendous export The whole of the dairy cattle are being trade. tested. They have all been tested once in JUr. Bra,nd: It does not look as if the the Brisbane area and the second and third sugar lanils >Yere going out. tests are now proce·eding. We hope eventu­ ally to eradicate the whole of the T.B. in 1\Ir. COLLINS: That is not a statement the herds supplying fresh milk to Brisbane that should come from an hon. member who and by the extension of these t·ests eradicate holds a high position in the sugar industry. it from the herds snpplying fresh milk for That tremendous progress has been made only the manufacture of all kinds of dairy because of the strenuous efforts by the products. 'That will enable us to say that Department of Agriculture and Stock, the the whole of our ea ttle producing milk for sugar industTJ itself, and the Bmeau of dairy products are entirely free from disease. Sugar Expcrimen t Stations in breeding better classes of cane. Jir. Pie: When do yon expect to com­ plete that test~ IIIr. lifacdonald: And the C.S.R. Company. Mr. COLLINS: The first and second tests Mr. COLLINS: I am not denying what in the BTisbane area ha'ye, been largely com­ the C.S.R. Company has done; it has done a pleted and in some herds we are proceeding good job too. I saw recently in the Gordon­ with the third and fourth tests. Yale district a trial plot of plant seedling cane that many years ago gave tremendous l'\Ir. Pie: Is the reaction very high? tonnages and a fairly high density aml grow­ ;)!r. COLLINS: The first reaction in some ing alongside it the latest breeds of cane cnses was high, but overall it is about 12 developed at the l\Ieringa ExpeTiment Station. per cent. The reaction in the re-tests has The latest breeds were ,growing' in the same got down to 6 and 2 per cent. I am only soil as the Clark seedling, but the latest stating these figures from memory. breeds were giving double the production of the Clark seedling cane. J'\Ir. Nicklin: It is down to about 4 per JUr. Brand: The Cl ark seedHng has gone cent. ont. }fr. COLLINS: The marketing-organisa­ tion legislation has been of great be,nefit to lUr. COLLINS: Yes, because the sugar­ the prima'ry producers. Marketing legislation ?:rowers will not grow it to the same extent l1as been of gTeat advantage not only to ns they did before. It is the land that has ,,,one out, not the seedling cane. primary produceTs in this State but throughout Australia. This legislation was enacted by ;)fr. IUacdonald: It is seed-sick. Labour Government many years ago. It was viciously criticised and fought by members of ,lUr. COLLINS: It is land-sick. It is the Country Party and members of the Opposi­ only by adopting new methods of production tion generally. NeveTtheless, it has won out. and practising rotntion with pastoral pursuits Many of our products can with advantage to that you nre going to refresh the lnnd nnr1 themsch-os come under it. Amongst other improve the inclustTy ovcr-nll. products that are in the course of doing so lU1·. JUacdonaJd: You have never grown is th, poultTy industry. There is also a cane, thnt is evident. possibility of a pig pool in Queensland, as >wll as a potato pool in Southern Queens­ Mr. COLLINS: What I am saying is land, which will take the place of the prrr;ent appTeciatcd by the men of the highest Commonwealth control when it ceases. The authority in the suga1· industTy. ThPy same kind of legislation could with advan­ thoroughly approve of nll I :un saying. They tage he applied to the whole of the ment Supply. [22 OCTOBER.] Supply. 877 industry if the producers interested were worth 3.96d. a lb. and in 1945 5.92d. Beef sufficiently alive to their own requirements. in 1939 was worth 30s. 4d. a cwt. and in I recommend them to give it great thought. 1945 it was worth 45s. 5d. I am using those They should consider coming under this legis­ figures in support of the argument I have lation not only in the marketing of meat but used here that this Government and the also in the marketing of wool. It is entirely Federal Labour Government have given a wrong that we shoultl grow the best wool in stabilised price to the primary industry. That the world and then allow others to come is indubitably a fact, and the primary pro­ here and tell us what our product is worth ducers during the last two years have got >vithout reference to the cost of producing. more out of taxation by way of subsidies }Ir. Sr)arkes: They are telling us pretty than they paid into taxation. One of the well just now. troubles today with the primary producer is that because of the higher prices they are Jir. COLLINS: That may be so but do getting they are in an income-tax scale they not forget there was a past and there will be were never in before. a future. If you are not sufficiently alive to that you will suffer in the future as you I have endeavom·ed to make a general suffered in the past. survey of the Department of Agriculture and Stock and as the debate goes on I feel sure ]\[aTketing legislation has achieved substan­ many more explanations will be asked for and tial increases in prices in this country for our given. Before I conclude my opening address primary products. 'l'he general outlook of I want to give the officers of the department our primary industries >vas never better than gre.at credit for the work they have done for at present. It behoYes all those interested the primary producers of this State. We in the welfare of this country to maintain have men in all departments who, I feel sure, their confidence in primary industries and could get much higher salaries in private thus have confidence in the future a·s well. enterprise. They are loyal to the department \Ve have a range of prices for primary and they are giving a wonderful service. products that has ncvar been equalled in this .From the Under Secretary down through the country. Fm example, in 1939, wheat was heads of the sub-departments to the juniors worth approximately 2s. 4d. a bushel; today in all of them, I take this opportunity of it is worth 4s. lld. to our growers. offering, on behalf of the Government and lUr. Kerr: How much is it on the wodcl's the people of Queensland, our very sincere markets'! thanks. foT the great work they are doing ioT th1s State. 'l'l1ey are a splendid body of l'iir. COLLIXS: It is worth more than men, loyal, helpful and co-operative. All I that on the world's markets. ask is that the pTimary producers be as )lr. Brand: Between 9s. and 10s. co-operative as the depaTtment and its staff desires to he >Yith the pTimary producers. ::I'Ir. COLLI~S: Does the hon. member suggest that we should sell our pr.oduct. on ~Ir. l'iiULLER: (Fassifern) (7.54 p.m.): the world's markets when >YOl'ld panty pnccs I am sure we all appreciate the effoTts made ar-e hitrh and at subsidised price,, when they by the MinisteT since he has occupied his are lo~·, or does he suggest that it is better prescnt high and important office. I am sure to tq to haYe a stabilised price for a number we appreciate that he as a practical man is of vcars? Prices for primary products were bent on trying to improYe the conditions of peg"ged >Then they were from 50 to 100 per our primary producers, and that he finds cent. higher than prices ruling in 1939. almost everything he may suggest of a prac tical nature is in contra~t with Government It is only the present Federal Govemmcnt, policy. with their sympathy for the primary pro­ ducer, who have been able to bring that Mr. Collins: In what way? Fixing of about. In 1939 wheat was worth 2s. 4d. prices~ a bushel and it is now worth 4s. lld. In 1939 pe.annts were ',mrth 2d. a lb. and they JUr. ~IULLER: I am sure it must be are now worth 3~d. a lb. Pig meats in 1939 apparent to the Minister for TTansport, he 1vere worth £2 12s. 7 d. a pig and are now being a practical man. I imagine the worth £5 3s. 1d. Wool in 1939 was worth grumble that must take place at Caucus meet­ lO~d. a lb., during the war it was worth ings. I know too that he has the right to come into this Chamber and endeavour to 15~d. and after the Labour Government increased the Yalue, I see scoured wool now bolster up the GoveTnment policy but knows bringing up to 70d. ,a lb. in the depths of his heaTt th~t Labom 's policy will not tend to inCTease production. 3Ir. Sparkes: The Labour Government 'l'he hon. gentleman must feel his position did that, too! Ycry keenly.

1\Ir. COJJLI~S: I am not claiming credit The proposal is to increase the vote from for that, but I 1vill claim credit for stabilis­ £234,248 to £330,280, or by approximately ing the price of wool at a higher price than £96,000. I do not object to that at all, the hon. member's Federal Government did, because this is the department faT which a although they claimed to be the representa­ great amount of money should be pTovided. tives of the primary producers. Butter in But faT the life of me I cannot understand 1939 was >vorth 13-~d. a lb. and in 1945 it "·hat paTt this increase >Till play in increas­ was \Torth 19.9d. a ib. Many butter fadorics ing production. In ·dew of that fact I pro-­ paid higher than that and it is not on pose to deal \Yith some of the points raised first-class butter either. Cotton in 1939 \Yas by the MinisteT. 878 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The llon. gentleman endeavoured to tell the The CHAIRMAN: Order! There is Committee that production had increased altogether too much interjecting. I ask hon. enormously. I disagree with him. He was members to allow the hon. member for very clever. He evaded entirely weight of Fassifern to make his speech uninterrupted. production and dealt entirely with value of production. lUr. lfiULLER: I should like to reply to the first statement made by the Minister, in lifr. Collins: Butter was higher last year connection with dairy production. He told than for the average of five years. us that prodhlction last year was higher than lUr. ~IULLER: Yes, but I will reply to the average for the previous four or fiyc him on his own figures. I have been years. That may be so, but I invite him to accused by inference of trying to exaggerate go through the figures I propose submitting the r•osition. 1 do not want to exaggerate and he will see where his cnse falls clown. and if I do so in this or in any other case As I have been charged with exaggerating, for that matter I want the Government to I propose to quote from the report of thp tell me so. If I am proved to be wrong or Under Secretary, which 11as tabled only 1 exaggerate it is the Government's job to today. In 1938-39 Queensland produced show me where. 2,775,211 boxes of butter. Lnst year we pro· ducecl 1,809,000--a reason why your production is where it understand. I think it is preposterous for is today is that it does not pay people to nn hon. member to make such interjections feed cows to produce dairy produce. on 11 subject of which he knows nothi11g. I a-:>preciate the fact that the bon. member for lUr. Conins: Why did the sugar produc­ Kenncdy knows his own business. tion go clown~ Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 871}

Jir. MULLER: That is an easy question Queensland vvill be eating mincemeat before to answer because a comparison cannot be the end of the year. During the last few made between pre·war prices and what they months the beef-cn.ttle industry has had a :ue todav. \Vhen the war broke out butter st't·back such as it never had before. and che~se prices were down to starnttion ·while this Tigid control has been con· rates. We were sending to Great Britain tinued manv of our bTeeders have gone out in the vicinity of 100,000 tons a year and of the in(lustry and that state of affairs will that nation was getting her requirements from continue unless they get something extra to .New Zealand and Denmark and there was compensate them for theiT drought losses. If more butter on the world's markets at that this is not done they aTe not going to breed time than they could absorb. The result the cattle we want. Costs of production will was that prices were reduced to a starvation increase, the losses will not be replaced, and level and dairy farmers were getting scarcP!y so production will suffer. That is what is :my wages and were just able to exist.. Does happening all the time. There are many the JI.Iinister suggest that is a fair bas1s for things peThaps that may have seTved to eomparison' Many things haYe happened increase production to some extent, such as since then. People would not be in the the use of tractors and milking machines, industrv if prices were to he kept at that where it was economically possible to use low le_;el. 'l'hey would get out of it and them, but the fact remains that there is a engage in other lines of primary production; shoTtage. I know that a subsidy has been they would take no interest in dairying. I given to the dairying industTy and that the have said before, and I repeat, that it was dail'y farmers have received about £7,000,000 due to a vigorous maladministration policy. in this way, but the price of the dairy I hoped when the JI.Iinister took over the produce was pegged at very much below the portfolio of Agriculture and Stock, seeing cost of production and while they received that he was a pmrtical man and seeing that a subsidy of £7,000,000 they really lost the Minister for 'l'ransport had a practical £12,000,000 by not being allowed to get the background they would bring influence to benr natural mnrket price Ol' the price they would on Lnbour policy right throughout Australia, have got on the export market. If the in order that primary producers might Teceive Minister has the right to make a comparison greater consideration. for purposes of his case I have the right to Jir. CoHins: Never have they been given make a compaTison for purposes of my OvYn gre:::ttcr ('onsiderntion. l'ase. But I mmt to be fair. I believe that ::Ur. JUULLI~R.: Some of our primary when it is nceusnry to peg wages the dairy industries ha; e received consideration, but fanners and primary producers generall3· what has happened·? The Commonwealth nwst be pTepnred to submit to some form Government adYisers tried mighty hnrd to of price control, but the proof of the scheme keep the price of pig meat at Id. \Vhen. the is found onlv in the results that flow from price rose from 6d. to 7 d. a lb. they Jnstlfied it. If yon cnnnot get the pl'Oduction, that is, it because it was more than the price paid if you vYill not pay the primary producer in the previous year. Todny, seeing that a the price that 'I'll! enable him to produce, it fair price is being paid for pig meat, 9d. a will be the consumer who will suffer. If llJ., production has increased. the ]1l'Cscnt sd1cme is continued it will be the Let me take nnother of our industrir,; vYhile consumer who ;,·ill pny, became there will the matter is fresh in m)' mind and I quote be sul'h a sh01·tnge in supplies that ;crices wiH again from thP annual report of the Depart­ he high and he will be hit in the end. ment of Agriculture and Stock in reference I know that my time on this vote is limited to cotton. Look where the cotton industry and I only wish that I hnd even half the lws got to. time that the MinisteT had to discuss it. He At page 60 of tlmt report vYe find that mndG one or two stntements that called for for J 939-40 the production of seed cotton v-ery sharp replies. I admire his courage in was J 2,] 08,491 lb. It went to 15,869,159 lb. daring to make some of the statements he in 1940·41, to 14,057,690 lb. in 1941-42, then did. He is the Minister in charge of the dropped down to 1,820,246 lb. for 1944.4ii. In department but he cannot always be right. other vvorrls, it fell from 12,000,000 lb. to Some of his stntements were open to question J ,000,000 lb. I emphnsise that to support and I suppose that if I were in his position my argument thnt after all in industry you I should have to take it on the chin too if cannot div·orce the economic side frou1 the I were to put my chin out as he did. He scientific side. Those Tigid price-control made a nmnber of statements that are open svstems worked with pencil a11d paper to show to YCTY severe criticism. For instance, I do v1·hat it costs to prodce an article are no not agree with him when he snys that all our troubles are due to over-stocking. good : if vou do not get the ~ rticle some of the controllers begin to imagine that there is Jl

Central District only a few weeks ago and appointed that the Minister's department lws there the conditions are deplorable. The clone little or nothing to stop its sprca.l. supply of natural grass is Yery low and stock­ Even now, with summer approachin~';, I cannot owners must hand-feed to keep their stock find anything being said or done that might alive. One must decide vvhether it i& econom­ prevent the spread of the fly. \Ve read i11 ical to hand-feed. It is uneconomical when you the report of the department of the great take into account the cost of the feed and possibilities of D.D.T. That is true. We then the price of the product on the market­ know of the possibilities of D.D.T. as n result you can safely conclude that you are going of scientific investigation by officers of the to lose 50 per cent. of the amount spent on C.S.I.R. but the time has arrived when the the fC'ed. I >Ycnt into this question Yery Minister and his officers should set nbout rloscly when I was in the Rockhampton taking definite action to cope with the spread district a few weeks ago and in my opinion of this fly. I know a number of stock­ the people hardest hit are those who try to owners will do their part. I will do mine play the game by feeding their stock to keep and a number of others will do theirs too. them aliYe. There is this diiliculty: there J;tre and always The careless man who just walked out and vYill lJ a number of people in a district wlr·• let his stock die suffered, but the man who feel will do nothing. Numbers of cattle will nm his stock and was paying for this dear feed about the roads and reserves ancl in respect will be hit harder financially than those of these nothing will be done. While a who let their stock die. I am not suggest­ number of stock-owners will be prepared to ing that we should take the short cut and stem the onset of this fly, others >Yill l.'t allow our dairy cattle to die. We should it go. not. vVe should try to encourage and help Mr. Collins: A few years ago, when the our stock-owners to make provisions against Act was introduced, you opposed an:-· form drought. vVe shall not do so if we have of control of the buffalo fly. theol'lsts rushing in and telling the industry what prices should be. How do you expect Mr. MULLER: The Minister is trying to men to spend good cash in feeding their stock exaggerate and misconstrue. only to find that their profits after so feeding are less than would pay them to store it: ('l'ime expired.) I am in this industry and I know something :rtir. BRAND (Isis) (8.20 p.m.): It was about it. If we sold our foodstuffs instead interesting to hear the Minister submit his of feeding them to the cows and let them Estimates for this year, and in the course of run in the paddocks and exist as best they his remarks make the claim that he and his could, and if we did not lose them we should Government have been able to help the primary be financially better off. producers by ensuring increased prkes. J nst why we should have the claim made that this What has all this talk of subsidy done~ Government have assisted the primary pro­ First of all, no honest-to-God dairy farmer ducers over the last seven years while we or producer wants subsidies. Thev should have been at war is one of the things I :not be forced to approach the Government cannot understand, nor can I understand the for relief or sustenance of any kind. That Minister's contention that they have been is no practical way to get over the difi\culty. such great saviours of the primary producers The practical way is to give these people a of this country. I know of no industry in sufficient price to enable them to fortify reg:ard to which this Government have made themselves against drought and other diffi­ representations for better prices for their culties. Unless you do that you get trouble. primary products, which are the basis of their Recently, to get over the difficulty created by prosperity. 1h·onght. the State and Commonwealth Govern­ ments provided £50,000 by way of relief. The Commonwealth Government brought What happened when this money was appor­ down a drought-relief scheme, under which tioned, particula:Oly in Central Queenrsland the State Government are supposed to advance where the best part of it went~ We found their share of the money up to 50 per cent. that the people who let their cattle go got What do vrc find in Queensland~ Do we find 75 per cent. of the subsidy, whereas the men the State Government accepting the scheme who endeavoured to keep their stock going of the Federal GovernmenU Have they got nothing. I am not saying that no effort .approached the Federal Government to say should be made to keep one's stock alive. that they will co-operate with them in a That is unsound. The advancing of money drought-relief scheme although the primary by way of loans has many weaknesses. You producers of Queensland have been suffering can examine it as long as you like but you more than th!] primary producers in any ~re forced to admit that the responsibility other State~ Other States will co-operate must be on the primary producer himself. with the Commonwealth Government in regard T-T e shonld not be encouraged to think that to that scheme. The only other scheme that if he cannot carrv on he must fall hack on the State Goyernment have offered to the the Government ior relief. The "·hole thing drought-stricken farmer-and there are many ~s l'conomically unsound. Until you get past in this State in the various primary industries rhal stage I do not sec how yon can get out -is that under which a loan is made through of th2 c1ifficultv. · the dairy factories and repayments have to be met. Two other industries besides the dairy­ I mentioned a moment ago the need of ing industry recently asked this Government getting additional scientific aiel. Some time for drought relief. The sugar-producers and ngo I spoke on the buffalo fly. I mn clis- graziers of Queensland approached them and Supply. [22 OcTOBER.] Supply. 881

I thought the Minister would have told us proclueers, they will see to it that the loss what the Government proposed to do in threa teued bv Commonwealth action will not regard to those industries, but we heard rest on the llrimary producers, that they will nothing of what they intend to do. not be the losers. l'tir. Walsh: Do you say a request was i'I'Ir. Collins: Why has the acreage of made by the sugar industry to the State peanuts quadrupled if it is so unprofitable 1 Government for financial assistance? lUr. BRAND: That does not answer my Mr. BRAND: The sugar industry made question >Yhy the Minister has made no appli­ a request to the Queensland Government some cation to the Commonwealth Government for "·eeks ago-- a subsidy to cover the loss caused by the direction of the Commonwealth Goven1ment J Iiir. Walsh: For financial assistance? Itlr. Walsll: I want you to prove that Jlir. BRAND: That a drought-relief the peanut-growers will make a loss, and you seheme should apply to the sugar industry. cannot prove it. The whole trouble with this Government in not accepting the Commonwealth drought­ Mr. BRA NI>: It is true, according to the relief scheme is that they would have to pay report, that the peanut industry last year was over some money. The Queensland Labour producing from an area of 25,000 acres, and Government take fine care that they do not it is proposed to produce this year from pay over ,any money. If they can advance 50,000 acres. The Minister desires to know money that will be repaid they will do it. why that increase has taken place. It is not That is the only drought relief they ha>e because of any action of his Ministers and offered the primary producers. The Minister he knows it. The peanut industry, th;ough savs that the Commonwealth Government the actions of its board, has been ucvcloping ha"'ve been the saviours of the primary pro­ over the years, and we find that not only in ducers of Queensland and Australia. Why Australia but in Britain and even America do not this Government sh0\1" that thev are there is a demand on Australia for peanuts, prepared to give practical help to the primary ~ nd the price determined will enable this produced In the tropical North, where great industry to develop still further and drought was once virtually unknown, the pay reasonable re\vards. primary producers are now suffering from its effects and we have not had one word from ~Ir. Hilton: Who created the board? the Minister that would indicate that the Gowrnment are going to do something. )lr. BRAND: I take it that the farmers ereated the board. 'l'he Minister spoke a good deal about the various industries; he spoke of the wheat, Mr. Hilton: Who created the legislation? dairying, sugar and peanut industries, but he did not say what action he was proposing Itir. Walsh: Labour legislation. to take to save the peanut-growers from the threateil)ed loss of £40,000 because the }Ur. URAND: Of course it was legisla­ Commonwealth Government altered the ri01·mal tion. marketing of peanuts. I listened to the Minister contending that be~ause of the action of his Government there ~Ir. Walsll: You cannot prove that figure or £5,000 either. was wonderful control of the sugar industry, that production was maintained at a market­ Mr. BRAND: The Minister for Transport able level and that that was one of the great ~ays that we cannot prove it. The peanut salvations of that great industry. I know industry of Queensland has a Peanut Board, that State and Commonwealth Governments and this Government know something about have from time to time been able to place the Peanut Board's having said that on the the sugar industry in such a position that it estimate it must lose £40,000. was able to control its own marketable esti­ mates, and was governed by a board consist­ JUr. Collins: Never been correct in a ing of the representatives of the industry, forecast yet. except that the present State Government take fine care that it has no direct representation ~Ir. BRAND: The Minister knows that ou the Sugar Board. that was the statement made b:v the board, . The _Minister cannot show that any prosper­ that there will be a loss of £40,000 because Ity exists among the primary producers of the Commonwealth altered the normal chan­ Queensland because of the acts of his nels of the marketing by demnnding that thL' Ministry. peanuts shall go towards the production of The Minister was hard-pressed tonight to peanut oil. The Ministor has not protested justify the position of the wheat industry, to the Commonwealth Go;-ernment against caused by the Commonwealth Government's this action, by which the peanut-growers of action 18 months ago in limiting the Queensland stand to lose a sum estimated by production of wheat in this conntry. Queens­ the board at £40,000. Nor has he made land producers were limiten because the application to the Commonwenlth Govern­ Commonwealth Government thought that this ment for the subsidy about which he spoke State \Yas not suitable for the production of so much this e;-ening. Surely to goodness, wheat. if the Govemment of Queensland and the .Minister are interested in the primary ~Ir. Collins: That is not true . 882 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

:Ur. BRAND: Mr. Dedman and a few of south. Immediately spray depots were set the Minister's friends in the Federal Parlia­ up in places such as Bor01·en anrl Isis Jnue­ ment indicated quite clearly that Queensland tion and now farther down at 1\Iungar, but should not participate in any benefits to come the buffalo flv is around those areas. If in the to the wheat-growers. Queensland producers early clays action had been taken bJ tlle were limiterl to 3,000 bushels at the ruling Minister we should not have the fly wl1ere it rate, and had to depend on the world's parity is today. As a result of the apathy of the prices for ~m~·thing in excess of that amount. Administration \\'8 have the buffalo fh 'l'his resultecl in a drop in production. marching on the southern areas and eomini~ Although we had all sorts of regulations for upon the grent dairying districts of the South. the gonorning of the wheat industry, our Its effect will be devastating to the dairy granaries gradually became empty. The herds of South Qneensland. Within almost J ~ ::\finister is now endE'a\-oLuing to justify the months of the installation of the spray position by referring to another agreem .nt. svstem at Bororen the whole countryside wa' Having failed to ensure an adequate \Yhent alive, with these fl'ies. I cannot say that the supply to meet the bread requirements of the Government have clone a great deal in :!ll Australian people, the authorities now realise endeavour to hold this menace back in the that they must guarantee a price that will Gnlf country, ,,-here it originated. enable the people of Australia to have an assured supply of flour ,and at the same time The report submitted by Mr. Short-, Under be able to export wheat. Secretary of the Department of Agriculture and Stock, is an excellent one, but we finrl Mr. Walsh: Why did not your party give from it that a drought exis,ts. There has them a fiw-year agreemenH been a decline in the numbers of hOTses, cattle, sheep and pigs throughout the year. Mr. BRAND: I believe that our party Up to 31 March last, as compared with the made a great mistake in not giving them a previous year, there has been a decline in ten-year guarantee. The Leader of the horses of 13,313, in cattle of 83,432, in sheep IJiberal Party and the Leader of the Country of 2,322,839, and in pigs of 22,676, but since Party proposed a ten-year plan for wheat that time many hundreds of thousands of production and I venture to say that the sheep and cattle have perished as a result of great majority of wheat-growers voted for the drought. that plan at the recent election because they knew that \Ye must have long-range planning The Minister indicated that he is wry if lYe are to hope to revive an industry that anxious to develop the pig industry in has been almost ruined by faulty adminis­ Queensland. It has risen during the war tration during the war years. to its present high place in production but according to the report there has been a At 8.34 p.m., reduction in our pig population of 22,000. The Minister spoke exhaustively on this Mr. DEVRIES (Gregory) relicwcl the Chairman in the chair. subject and I do not know whether he is putting an argument for a reduction in the weight of pigs but he seemed to me to be )Ir. BRAND: In Queensland, where we giving an indication to the pig-producers of can grow wheat without the aid of fertiliser, this country that they must soon have to we should be able at least to double our look to a reduction in weight in the pigs requirements so as to ensure an adequate they send to market. If that is so, I should supply of bread for our people. If we do like to say to him that I hope he will that the countries overseas will soon learn endeavour to maintain quality and prices as to look to us for wheat to enable them to they have been over the years even at the give their people bread. We all know that expense of weight. there is a shortage of wheat throughout the world and this new proposal should be some It is possible that the weight may have to encouragement to produce wheat not only in come down to conform to market require­ other States but also in Queensland, where ments, but if that is necessary we mnst see it can be produced in abundance in normal that the payable price that has prevailed in years. the past, a price that has enabled the indus­ try to expand, is maintained. So far as I I come now to the buffalo fly, a menace can discern, the people of this country are that has spread to the southern parts of the willing to pay a reasonable price for bacon State. Some years ago it was confined to and pork, and so it would be better to main­ the Gulf country, but now we have it in the tain the existing price even at the expense lower regions of the State and the Govern­ of a rednction in weight rather than reduce ment have been rpsponsible for its rapid tlw price and the weight too. The industry spread, south. Today \Ye have an article is nn important one and deserving of the appearing in the ''Telegraph'' showing that consideration that the Minister indicated. It the buffalo fly is advancing on Brisbane: it is one that can help the dairying industry goes on to say that it is now south of and the small primary producers very Maryborough. materially. It may yet develop in a small I congratulate the Minister on changing way without the aiel of the claiTying indus­ the spray system for eombaling the buffalo try. Perhaps if we follow the practices fly. He released a D.D.T. mixture almost nnployed by Argentina and other parts of as soon as he took office. Prior to t1wt all the \vorld wo may be nble to produce the we l1arl was a phenyle mixture, which was pigs ;ye want, especially with irrigation, with­ ,])solutrl:v nse1ess. Th2 flies have now come out the aid of milk-without the clah-ying Questions. [23 OCTOBER.] Veterinary Surgeons, &c., Bill. 883 industry. \Vlwn that tinw arrives I feel stue that there v:ill Le a great future for this industry, and that it will enable the smaller producer to make a few pounds more than ho would make by carrying on only. one industry. In short, it will be a valuable adjunct to many other industries. It offers a wonderful srope for people engaged in mixed farming. I com­ mend the Minister for the interest he has taken in it and trust that he will contimw to do so, in order that the pig-producers of Queensland may be assured of a measuTe of economic secnritv. Am1 I trust above all that the price for the nroduct ''"ill not 1J.e allowed to fall, and that the produeeTs g"nerally can look foTwaril to a gooil return fTom the industry. Progress reported. The House adjourned at 8.45 p.m.