Gas NrnE 2020 Zv! Street Uasiiinp;tan, D .C , 20036

PAC& THE NATION

as brcadcast over the

CBS Television Netnork and the - CBS Radio Netv~ork

Republican Leader of the Senate

NIWS CORRESPONDENTS: Martin Agronsky CBS New

Ben H. Ragdikian Saturday Evening Post

Roger Mudd : CBS News

PRODUCERS: Qlen Wadley Prent iss Childs

DIRECTOR: Robert VLkarelli MR. AGRONSKY: Senator Dirksen, in the light of the Chinese Commun'ist ultimatum to India, the Indians have asked POP aid from the United States, Britain and the SovLet Union. Iihat should our COuiltry do?

SGNATOH DIRKSEN: There are several things he can do, We can make an entreaty noMo go any further riith this aggresseve move.

Secondly, wp could 'issue a formal rmrning not to g3 any further. - Third, we mi~htotkr some kind of aid. - Fourth, we might offer our good ofzices as an

Lnterradiary in the hope tkat all sides vi:ill accept.

If you ask me nhat klnd of aid, that Is probably a quesLion that experts should answer, because obviously

'in a sitiiation of this kind it would almost have to be military aid.

THE ANNOUSER; From CBS Washington, FACE THE

NATION, a spontaneous and unrehearsed news Inter vfef.q with the Senate Republ ican leader Everett Dirksen of Illinois. Senator Dirksen will be quest foned by

CBS New Correspondent Roger Mudd, Ben Bagdikian of the Saturday Evening Post, and to lead the question'ing CBS News Correspondent Mart in Agronslsy . We shall resume the interview wit.h Senator Dir"ksen in just a moment. MR. AGRONSKX: Senator Dirksen, former Vice

President Nixon has charged that President Johnson has proved himself impotent to stop the war between

India and Pakistan. How do you feel about that accusation?

SEXATOR DIRKSEN: Well, can an outside country ever stiop a war? We probably came closer to it in the Congo where we offered planes and I presume s?me weapons. That went a good Wys in order to bring that to an end, We dLd not stop.- a war in Vietnam. I am not sure when you have major powers iFke Pakistan in India

$hat you can cakegorically say that by our inkervention we can stop n war, because there are the conflicting parties to be taken into account, and perhaps bheg viill not yield in princip1.e on the posLtfon they take, Then what does the United States or any other country actually do?

MR. AGlIONSKU: Senator, I take it; you disagree wlth

Mr. Nixon?

SENATOR DXRKSEN: Well, I am just; trying to give you a factual answer to the question as I understand LC, and I try Co project myself i.nt.0 the position of t~e

President of &he United Stakes sn dei;ermining what course

60 pursue in the hope that the vjar nay be stopped, buG a hope is one thing, actually stopping conflict is quLte another.

MR. BAGDIKIAN : Well, Senat or, pur suing that same point, has also said that he thinks

'chat American foreign policy under the Johnson Adminis- tration is properly going 60 be an issue in the 1966 election campaign. You have been forthrighb fn support of the Presiclznt Is forelgn policy. Is bhfs ano'chw serf ous difference betiween you and Mr. Nixon?

SENATOR DIRILSEN : Well, r@t par: icularly, because thers are many facets Go foreign policy. .- You remember -in 1960 one of Lhe grear; issues bas the low prestige of Ghe United States in all parts of the world. I do not belleve that prestige has been improved. In fact, 1 think lt has been Lmpaired. That, of co~rse,is one of the things thal; comes out of this crucible 06 dtrferences between countries that are

.located. ken, twelve thousand miles aeray. Bug slnce that fssue was made in '64 It wLl1 be a recurring issue in the days ahead.

MR. MUDD: Senator, specii"ica1ly un Mr. Nkonls comments, do you think that Presldent Jct-.nson will succumb to %he tempbation in Soubh Vietnam to agree to a coalition or neu'cralisd government;?

SENATOR DIRKSEN: Well, 1 can only say I hope not.

That's a tremendous live in order to bring hostilities to an end and stop the blood-letting. But wfll it have been a durable answer if it's done, because if

It's neutralist obviously it can go in one dfrection or another,

MR, MUiID: By hupe not, do you hope agabst hope or do you have some feeling: that the President would succumb to the temptat ion?

SJNATOR DIRKSEN: Well, I do not know what the

President will do. I can only say I hope he will not succumb to it unl;Il every other devlce, every other .- possible Pemedy has been tried. Whece has a state of neutralfsm cvei. gotten us? Laos 1s a classical example oY where embracing that doctrine has failed and It has only aggravated our troubles In the Far Jast.

&In. AGhONSI(Y: Well., Senator, suppose, to use your own words, the President had tried everything else and

Yelt that this was the only so1ut;ion. Would you then support nim?

SENATOR DIRKSEN: Well, I would prefer not to crass that bridge until I Came to it, but i: would like to see every other devlce, every other approach trred first and tried erfectevely before you get that faP,

MH. BAGDIKUN: Well, are you sayLng, Senato?, that you are not in yous* own mind rullng out a possibiltty of a negotiated peace or a coalition gwernrnent, i%at you might accept it under some conditions?

SENATOR DLRKSEET: Well, maybe it is the ul.tirnate end to this thLng in place of continuing conflict, but this conflict can spread and finally engulf the entere world. Tkat makes, of course, a better choice between really two extremes. That's why I say 5 don1t like to

proJecl; myself that fay into eke future and come up ~ith what seems like a categorical enswer. MR. MUDD: Senator, Mr. -Nixon also said that by 1968 unlcss Mr. Johnson suSSered a major foreign policy criei:3 or a domect ic '6conomic upheaval 6he

President woulc be in an even stronger political positLon.

Do gou agree that as yet the President has not suffered a major foreign policy crlsis?

S!ZhIATOil DIRKSEN: Up to this paint I do nol; believe he has.

MR. MUDD: What do you do then With the Dvmfnican

Republfc? How do you categorize South Vfe'inam?

SENATOR DIRKShTJ: Well, first 01 all, the Adminis- tratlonrs policy in Vietnam is lin a nature a continuation of what be tried to undertake fn a limited uay before.

That goes back to the Geneva accord in 1954. And under that aceord we viere permitted to send in something less than 700 advisers. But as this problem took on new dlmensiom in Vietnam, we had to make a build-up these a and try to train the Vietnamese arn!y, and that's the

01.d stwry, You move a little further eaeh time and

finally you are in difficulties up to your neck, so

that bouay I th-ink ft is pretty conceded that tie have

more than 125,000 troops of all kinds, meaning msfntenance

troops, operational troops, and so forth, in Vietnam.

Now there is speculation as to whether or not we need

even more, and I am not prepared to say whether they

will be sent or not. It is Wing discussed. That I

can sag. ,- MR. AGRONSKY: But you donft feel that this will

be an issue in the campaign? You would exclude it?

SFNATOR DIRKSEN: Well, you can't laugh this thing

off entirely, but it fs a fact that we made some pledges

to Vietnam more than eleven years ago and we certainly

do not want to be in a position of having any counhry

sap that we repudiated our pledges and we welched on

the promises that we made,

MR. BAGDUCTAN: Well, Senator, do you agree with

what is commonly said that President Johnson is very

strong and able on the dornest ic side of policy and

practioes, but that his weakness is foreign policy,

, and do you think this is true and do you 'chlnk this

will make a difference in the coming elections, that

this is h%s vulnerable point? L.

SENATOR DIRKSEN: Well, now, when you talk about strength on the domestic side, you are talking, I suppose, about the Capacity and facility of the President to get his program through congress, but there is another stanza to that whole story, and that is Pi' it is taken through

Congress successfully, it still has to be made to work.

And the question is will it work?

I cite as an example the so-called poverty program.

I addressed myself to that at consfderable length on the C Senate floor and pointed OLI~some of the peculiar and almost silly undertakings, T%ke 437 young ladies, if 1 may use the term, ages 13 to 15, befng taken around and shown Mow to drive a truck, how to dance the ballet, and so forth, to give them a hint as to Pihat kind of future occupations they might want to pursue. Well, what a lot of academic nonsense that really is.

NON, you can mult lply it In a lot of quarters. So it Is not the fact that Concress approved the anti-poverty program. They have to take responsibility for making the program work and that's quite a different thing.

MR. AGRONSKY: Senator, one area en which you are completely at odds with the President; is on the right to work amendment that is being proposed, so-called 14 (b 1 to the Taft-Hartley Act,

SEXATOR DIRKSEN : You are quite right. 9

MR. AGRONSfl: Right. Now, you have said that you are prepared to Eilfb~~eterthat Iti1 the snovi TiLes ,

Do you intend to keep Conpposs here ' ti1 Christmas? Is that the thrust oi your observation?

SENATOR DIRiCSdT : Well, Mart in, first 3 must correct you, 1 never used that odious word "i'ilihuster ." I like to think of it in terms of ex'cendec! discussion,

MR. MUDD: Why is it so odious, Senator? Why is that word odious? - SENATOR DLRKSEN : Well,.- somfbocig at tached a rather odious connotation to the word and so I like to avoid it, but extended discuss2on is a far better term. Moreover,

it's more readlly translatable into givhg: information to the country. You see, Thomas Jeff'erson once said,

"To inform the minda of the country and then abide by the judgment of the people is the duty of a pubblic servant,I I

S:, 1 am Just biylng to inform the people.

MR. AGRONSKYr How long do you intend to inform the

people? Let's put it that way,

SENATOR DIRKSEN : Well, it depends somewhat on what

the issue is, khe time of the year, and so forth, whether there is something -- MR, AGRONSKY: Well, let's talk about the right to

work amendment to the Taft-Hartley Act.

SII;NATOR DIRICSEN: Yes, e'c 's going to come at about the right time of the year. The children are in school. People are back from theLr vacations, They now address themselves to more serlous businesa and they read more critLcally than they have before and they listen to your programs more critically. And as a result they will bc doing a lot of thinking. So we ruant to only lay out foundational material. that will be a guideline for them to think through.

MR. MUDD: Have you got some information, Senator, F-~ information come to you that perhaps the Administration wlll. not push 14(b] thls fal-l? Mike MansefEeld the other day indicated that bhe decision to call it; up was not irrevocable.

SENATOR DIRKSEIJ E Yes, but I have no informat ion, that is to say, I have no exact knowledge on that point.

Sometimes I get feelers frm one sLde or another.

MR. MUDD: Have you gotten feelers on this?

SENATOR DIRKSEN: And all to often there is always coupled with one of these probes a little tag, whether you wLl1 do a certain thing in January or in the second session of the 89th Congress If this issue is thrown overboard.

MR. AGRONSIN: Do you now have reference to the reapport i onment dec is-ion, is that it ?

SENATOR DIRICSEN : Both, reapportionment and also l41b).

MR. BAODIKXACAM: Well, Senator, it's commonly

thought thak on reapportfoment on which you here

defeated this time on the attempt to cater down the

Supreme Court decision on one man, one vote, that you

did get a concession from the AdrninfstraCion in having

that the Tirct order of business ?+hen Congress recon-

venes in January, and many people have supposed that there was some kind of arrangemeht,-- some kind of deal on which you got this and there was a little tag connected.

Is this true? And, if so, id-iat was the tag?

SENRTUR DIRKSEN: IrJcll, 1 am afraid on that issue

you are a lTttLe Loo polite. I do knotv that I got a

concession, I kncw that I went into the Judiciary

Committee armed irrl'ch everyChing I needed within tne

compass of the rule book and safd, "'NO reapportionment,

no immigration," because tn a committee you car put a bill to sleep, It only takes two people, and I had two or three

at my right hand to help, because in a morning' e session

you ge;r. practically a good hour in order trj debate an issue,

And once you get the floor they can't take it away from

you. So we could have kept that going until Christmas

easily. At long last the vote waz changed. I do not

know what extraneous force was iiltruded t:r change that

vote, I only know that when 1 said, "Iklseither this or 12 else," that suddenly there rrjas a change and instead of a tie vote in the full comm'itkee the vobe was 9 to 7 and the reappor(Eionment issue went on the calendar. I - made thfs one concession. I wauld not try to have L% called up until January.

14.R BAGDIKIAN : Do you think YOU will w1n in January where you were beaten this time?

SENATOR DIRKSLZ: Well, I: never go on a long trail like that without feelfng thz6 when you get to the end of the trail you can hoist . ..the flag of victory.

MR. MUDD: To return just briefly to the 14(b) extended debate, you have said that you have got 25 men you can count on to run this filibuster. Most people can't, count bur; 17. And in your office last week when you had a meeting on it only 11 showed up.

Now, the fact is, Senator, that uhat you got

~Lllingto f ilLbuster are same old men and some &id- west Republ icans who have never gone through a f ilibuster before . Now, do you really think you can mount an all-out cratorical display that will require the Administration to roll back?

MR. DIRKSEN: F,irst, Roger, I am sorry if my strategy threw you off track. You see, I only invited as many to that strategy meeting in my office as were 13 Ghere . Everyone I invited was there. I dicln' t ask for the re& of '%hem. I knew where they were and who they were.

MR. MUDD: You have trlcked me before, Senator.

SE3IATOR DIRKSEN : Oh, I am sorry. Eut I know how many we got on both sides.

NR. MUDD: Well, how many do you have? SE3IATOR DIRKSEN: Well, must I disclose - - i4R, 14WD: You said 25 once,-- SEWATOR DRKSEN: Well, if I said 25, &hen I can st ill stick by 25.

MR. ACTZICXSKY: Are there enough to hoist the flag of victo~y,Senator?

SEIJATOR DLRIGSEN : It migilt be more ,

Well, I think so.

MR. AGRONSKY: When?

SEWTOR DIRKSESI: I begin to see the steam column rise all OVeF the country on this Issue of 14fb1, and believe me, that Is not limited to people unidentified with unions. You viould be surprised at the number of card-carrying members in labop organizations who are wrftlng in constantkg day afte? day agaLnst the repeal

of l&(b), So rue believe we have got the country in our corner, and I do believe that the national polls that are carefully taken will sustain that observation and that Judgment . MR. AGRONSKY : Senator, despite your resistance

to the Administration and the Pres.ident on 14 (b) , the Right-to-Work Act, many people feel that the Presldent has you unequivocally in his corner any time he really wants you. Do you think 'ihat s fair?

SENATOR DIRKSEN: I m never i~nequivocallyin

anybody's corner. When 7: thhk the President is rrght,

then I am in his corner. When .I think he is wrong, I v- tell him so and I tell. hen, in language 1 am sure he

NR, AGRONSKY: He seems to demonstrate a remarkable -- SENATOR DIRKSEN: Because we icarncd a svct of a

common language Wen we wre leaders together in the Senateand an& we could talk to each other freely at

his office or in mine, and you could ttwow in a few

expletives, you toad thraru the punctuation series out

of the window and we an emphasis Lhat doesn't always

sound good in public, But when we got throtgh we knew

where we stood.

MR. 33AGDIKIAbT: But, Senator, I don't think that

Ghere is another important Republican leader who has

had as casual relations with the last trm Democratic

Presidents as you have and with the D~aiocra'cicleadership

on the Hill. Is this a reflection of the face that tho 15 Republican strength is very weak at this tLme fn numbers and we perhaps don't have cr rea.1. trifo-party system buC, as someone said, a one-and-a-half parcy system, and does this cordial9ty and irequent cooperat Lon Mat you have piith the Adniinfstratlon a matter of convLction or is it, hell, expedLency, the best you can get, under the circum- stances?

SEBVATOR DIRKSEN : Well, norla that s a very involved question and maybe we ought toF@arse it Like you do a sentence. . - First 02 all, is th~reany reason wiq' I shouldnTl; maintain that long-standing frfendoh9p ur-i'ih the Prosldent and still be able to disagree r*i.ith him and do bt violently rlght in hLs presence rihen we have a session? He under- stands fully and so do I. Very often, you. talk about one and one-half partfks,

I remind you that those very catchy clLci?es that are 'in the air today you co~ildreproduce from the 1iterat3me of 1928, irjhffi after that election they said the Democrat

Party is done, Isn't that vrhat they sa-ld? Why they had all the wreathes ready, the hole was dug in the cemetery, the marble slab was prepared : Here lies the Democrat

Party. But parties ara rather viable and durable insti- tutions and they don't die on the vine quite that way.

And it only takes events to infuse new interest in a party. 16 ,?he Republicans are st ill here. Sometimes they tempo-

rarily switch to the o'cher sfde. You got the independent

vote to work on and to lure back into the Republican Party,

Now, I xi11 give you. an example. In 1950 1 rang

all the changes in the campaign ZzalEst the majority

leader of the Senax, who is my friend and has alcvays

been my friend ail$. ?vho comes to see me, and you lcnoir that

I am referring to the Honorable Scott Lucas formerly United States Senator from the-- State 3f I1Zlnois. But tile clay that the kord came that the troops were movlng

into Korea that p~.tan enL'ir'Gly different face upon the

campaign. Fron then on there has only one fssue,

So when I say events, Chose are the critical things

that gfve direction 60 a parsby and glve dfrecl;lon Lo the

bhink-lng of the people %then they go to 'the polls to vote,

And finally, just thls braad obse-cvaCion. Who was

the professor at the UnSversfiq of Wiscon~fnyears ago, I

'chi& his name vias Monroe, who said, "Pari;Les don't defcat

each other. Parties defeat themselves .I' And I think that's prtei;ty nearly a political 'mufsm.

MR. AGRONSKY: Senator, there are many more Ghings

chat we would like to ask you and we will resume the

questioning in a moment. -."-

MR. AGRONSIQl : Senator Dirlcsen, you have indicated 17 that you refuse to be discour?aged about the prospects for your party in the forthcoming elections in '66 and

I presurne in 168. Who do you see on the Republican scene who could lead your party in l$u?

SENATOR DIRKSEN: We3.1, you cause me peat distress of spirit when you ask that question, kcame it would be necessary then for me to figure some persor: out, I can give you names, MR. AGRONSKY: That woulg-73e interesting .

SE8ATOR DIRKSEN: That. - doesn't moan that they will go anywhere with the party when khe chips are down. But former Vice Pcesldent Nkxon is still out in front, that

:is to sag, in front, I mean in front of the public . There Ls Governor Romney of Michigan who gets around the country a good deal . There is the Governor , Whether he has ambitfons in that field I do not know, but I ppesume there will still be others when the tlme comes, and it's quite a long ways to 1968.

MR, MUDD: Will your party go through in 1968 what it. vient through in 1964, that is, a show-down between the moderate wing of the party and the conservat lves, or is that fight over in your party in conventions?

SmATOR DIRKSEN : I believe, Roger, that to a considerable extent thzt's over. If we had to have a lesson, and if you can call it a lesson, then let 1964 stand as that lesson.

MR. AGRONSIZS1: What tias the lesson YOU got from

'64, Senator?

SENATOR DDXSEN: Well, you had a popular candidate who had been courslng this country i"or a long the. And, frankly, I do not know how you would have assembled any group of delegations and denied that nomLna5:ion to Barry

Goldv~ater. He traveled early and late, before clubs and groups and polktical meetings -al.1 over the country day and nLght, raen and shLne . Nobody Srorn the standpoint of enerky and hard work could ever match that- reeord,

And a cand-idate doesn't burld hiaself up in a clay. You don't do it in newspaper headlines . MR . AGRONSKY : Senat or, is zeal and energy a su.b- st 9tute for capacjty?

SENATOR DIREiSEN : Oh, no. 'It requires all oP those, but I am speaking only norj of what happened in San

Francisco, because these people had seen him. They had shaken hands wLth hLm .m, The.y knew him. They didn't know some of these other candidates except that $hose were names thak appeared on the front page or over radio or on teelevision. Buk beyond that -- you know, it has

II - a deep .impress if you see a manis name and say, I know h5m. L saw hh. He grabbed my hand and gave me a vigorous handshake ." And here yo~thad the rru5-ts of many years 19 of endeavop, because he was at it all the while that he was a member of the UnlCed States Senate,

MR, BAGDIKIAN: But, Senator, havenl'G you safd khat even in hindsight, you would do it all over sgalin

In nominat ing Barry Goldwater and presumably knowing

Che disaster that woad come from Ghat;?

SENATOR DIRISSd13 : We11 , sob Zng and speaking from hindsight puts me in same dLfPicull;y, but I khink I wou3.d have done precisely what- 'I did before. Ffrst , because 1 thought he was going to get the nomination, but more hportankly as a c&league he asked me to norninaee hlm ,

MR , MUDD: Senator, in jusb the brief moment we have got lefC can I pln you down on a flat prediction as 'Go when the first session of $he 89th Congress will finally get oa6 of hfasliington?

SENATOR DIRKSEX: Well, I could give you a half a dozen dates. I could say, "Get your Thanksgiving turkey now, " or "Buy the trimmings for your Christmas tree :"

Who knows ?

MR , MTJDD: What do you think?

SEMATOR DIRKSEN: We have got some vitality and if

14(b) is going to be dished up I can assure you that there is going to be extended dLscussfon,

MR , AGRONS,KY: Senator, I am awfully sorry, gentlemen, 1 am awfully sorry but our time is up, Thank you, Senator Dirksen, for belng here with us on . A vjord about nexi; vreek s guest now 'Jn a moment . -""

THE ANNOmTCUI: Today on FACE THE NATION Senate iiep~~blkanleader Everett DDlrksen OF Ill,lns%srias 'inter- viewed by CBS news correspondect Roger M~rdd, Ben Bagdlklan of the Sctt Wday SvcilLng Post .TBS news carrespundent Mrtln Agronsky led the questfoning.. - Next tjeek Under Secretary of Skate George W. Ball ~lllFACE TI-IC l?ATION.

FACE TEE NATION was prerecorded in liashfngton.