• STATE Government LIBRARYL of South Australia
STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
OH 1/33
Full transcript of an interview with
LILY MARIAN SHALLESS
on 30 May 1986
by Beth M. Robertson
Recording available on cassette
Access for research: Unrestricted Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library OH 1/33 LILY MARIAN SHALLESS
NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT This transcript was created by the J. D. Somerville Oral History Collection of the State Library. It conforms to the Somerville Collection's policies for transcription which are explained below. Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word and reflects the informal, conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. The State Library is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the interview, nor for the views expressed therein. As with any historical source, these are for the reader to judge. It is the Somerville Collection's policy to produce a transcript that is, so far as possible, a verbatim transcript that preserves the interviewee's manner of speaking and the conversational style of the interview. Certain conventions of transcription have been applied (ie. the omission of meaningless noises, false starts and a percentage of the interviewee's crutch words). Where the interviewee has had the opportunity to read the transcript, their suggested alterations have been incorporated in the text (see below). On the whole, the document can be regarded as a raw transcript. Abbreviations: The interviewee's alterations may be identified by their initials in insertions in the transcript. Punctuation: Square bracket [ ] indicate material in the transcript that does not occur on the original tape recording. This is usually words, phrases or sentences which the interviewee has inserted to clarify or correct meaning. These are not necessarily differentiated from insertions the interviewer or by Somerville Collection staff which are either minor (a linking word for clarification) or clearly editorial. Relatively insignificant word substitutions or additions by the interviewee as well as minor deletions of words or phrases are often not indicated in the interest of readability. Extensive additional material supplied by the interviewee is usually placed in footnotes at the bottom of the relevant page rather than in square brackets within the text. A series of dots, ...... indicates an untranscribable word or phrase. Sentences that were left unfinished in the normal manner of conversation are shown ending in three dashes, - - -. Spelling: Wherever possible the spelling of proper names and unusual terms has been verified. A parenthesised question mark (?) indicates a word that it has not been possible to verify to date. Typeface: The interviewer's questions are shown in bold print. Discrepancies between transcript and tape: This proofread transcript represents the authoritative version of this oral history interview. Researchers using the original tape recording of this interview are cautioned to check this transcript for corrections, additions or deletions which have been made by the interviewer or the interviewee but which will not occur on the tape. See the Punctuation section above.) Minor discrepancies of grammar and sentence structure made in the interest of readability can be ignored but significant changes such as deletion of information or correction of fact should be, respectively, duplicated or acknowledged when the tape recorded version of this interview is used for broadcast or any other form of audio publication.
2 ATB/14/129-612i Mrs Lily SHALLESS ii 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Page
Preface LXI
Notes to the Transcript iv
Family and Background 1 Father's emigration to South Australia Father's Currie Street livery stables; horses, employees, busy seasons, customers, motor rivals
Childhood 20 Currie Street home Whooping cough Move to spacious Morphett Street home
Decision to work in teenage years 27
Childhood continued 29 Ice skating at the Glaciarium
Schooling 34 Dominican Convent, Franklin Street 'Upstairs' and 'downstairs' and class consciousness
Work 40 'Too many women at home' Office work at Charles Moore Ltd
Courtship and Marriage 48 Extended engagement Parents' deaths Move to Glenelg
Collateral Material in File 8612 includes: Photographs P8612A-H; photocopies of news clippings about William Adams; photocopy of a pamphlet advertising the Adelaide Cyclorama (the same building then housed the Claciarium).
Cover Illustration 'The littlest skater in Adelaide': Lily Adams aged five as Little Red Riding Hood in a fancy dress carnival at the Glaciarium, Hindley Street, in 1905. ATB/14/129-6121 Mrs Lily SHALLESS iii 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
PREFACE
Lily Shalless (nee Adams) was born in the City of Adelaide in 1899. Her father was the proprietor of a livery stable in Currie Street which did brisk business hiring out horse-drawn vehicles on a daily basis. The family lived com- fortably in a large rented house in Morphett Street and Lily, the middle child of three girls, had various pastimes including ice skating, the violin and dancing. Lily went to the 'upstairs school' at the Dominican Convent in Franklin Street until she was about seventeen. Afterwards she was expected to stay at home but a year or so later when her younger sister was about to leave school, Lily was daunted by the prospect of four women in the house all day and got herself a job at Charles Moore Ltd. She began on a cash desk, graduated to the office, was trained on the Comptometer to balance the cashiers' dockets and within a few years was in charge of the section. Lily met her husband-to-be in about 1927 but they did not marry until 1934.
Mrs Shalless was 86 years of age at the time of the interview.
Mrs Shalless is an enthusiastic speaker with a lively memory. The interview took place in the sitting room of her unit and the recording levels of the tape recordings are good. There is little extraneous noise apart from some caused by Mrs Shalless shifting in her chair and minor traffic sounds and birdsong.
The interview session resulted in two hours and fifty minutes of tape recorded infor mation.
'S.A. Speaks: An Oral History of Life in South Australia before 1930' was a Jubilee 150 project conducted under the auspices of the History Trust of South Australia for two years and two months ending December 1986. The Interviewees are broadly representative of the population of South Australia as it was in the first three decades of the twentieth century. Selection of Interviewees was guided by a Sex and Occupation Sample calculated from the 1921 Census and Inter- viewees were suggested, in the main, by people who responded to 'S.A. Speaks' publicity. Each interview was preceded by an unrecorded preliminary interview during which details about the Interviewee's family history and life story were sought to help develop a framework for the interview.
As stated in the Conditions of Use for Tape Recordings and Transcripts adopted for the 'S.A. Speaks' project: 'The copyright in the item(s) [viz. the tapes and transcripts of Interview 8612] and all the rights which normally accompany copyright including the right to grant or withhold access to them, conditionally or unconditionally, to publish, reproduce or broadcast them, belongs in the first instance to the History Trust of South Australia for the purposes of the 'S.A. Speaks' project and after the cessation of that project to the Libraries Board of South Australia for the purposes of the Mortlock Library of South Australiana.' ATB/14/129-612i Mrs Lily SHALLESS iv 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT
Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word. It was the policy of the Transcriptionist, Chris Gradolf, and the Interviewer, as editor, to produce a transcript that is, so far as possible, a verbatim transcript that preserves the Interviewee's manner of speaking and the informal, conversational style of the interview. Certain conventions of trans- cription have been applied (i.e. the omission of meaningless noises, redundant false starts and a percentage of the Interviewee's crutch words). Also, each Interviewee was given the opportunity to read the transcript of their interview after it had been proofread by the Interviewer. The Interviewee's suggested alterations have been incorporated in the text (see below). On the whole, however, the document can be regarded as a raw transcript.
Researchers using the original tape recording of this interview are cautioned to check this transcript for corrections, additions or deletions which have been made by the Interviewer or the Interviewee but which will not occur on the tapes. Minor discrepancies of gram mar and sentence structure made in the interest of readability can be ignored but significant changes such as deletions of information or correction of fact should be, respectively, duplicated or acknowledged when the tape recorded version of this interview is used for broadcast or publication on cassettes.
Abbreviations
The Interviewee, Lily Shalless, is referred to by the initials LS in all editorial insertions in the transcript.
Punctuation
Square brackets [1 indicate material in the transcript that does not occur on the original tape recording.
The Interviewee's initials after a word, phrase or sentence in square brackets, i.e. [word or phrase LS] indicates that the Interviewee made this par- ticular insertion or correction. All uninitialled parentheses were made by the Interviewer.
An series of dots, indicates an untranscribable word or phrase.
Sentences that were left unfinished in the normal manner of conversation are shown ending in three dashes, - -
Spelling
Wherever possible the spelling of proper names and unusual terms has been verified. Where uncertainty remains the word has been marked with a cross in the right hand margin of the Interview Log and Data Sheet which can be consulted in the Interview File.
Typeface
The Interviewer's questions are shown in bold print. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 1. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
'S.A. Speaks: An Oral History of Life in South Australia Before 1930' Beth Robertson interviewing Mrs Lily on 30 May 1986 TAPE 1 SIDE A
Well, could you just start by telling me your full name from when you were girl.
My name before I was married you mean?
Yes.
Lily Marian Adams.
What was your married name?
Lily Marian Shalless.
What was the date of your birth?
Fifteenth of October, 1899.
You were saying the other day, for a while you thought you were born in 1900.
Yes, my mother always told me that and I thought to myself, 'Oh, that's lovely'. (laughs) Then my father left us a thousand pounds. He had my name incorrect - he had Lilian Mary. He wouldn't think of the name Marian, you see - Mary was - - Of course that's the Church, you see, Our Lady's name. Because of my birth - I had to get my Birth Certificate - to verify and make it right. And when I got that Birth Certificate, I was a year older, and I was then eighteen months older than my boyfriend, as I called him then.
So you found you were even older.
Yes. And I said to him then, 'That finishes us. We won't marry - I won't marry you,' because we were engaged but not with a ring at the moment, you see - we had the understanding. And he said, 'That doesn't matter,' and I said, 'You don't marry - - -. The wife's never older than the husband'. Of course it was back in 1934, that was when I was married eventually.
Where were you born?
was born in Waymouth Street, right near the intersection of Morphett Street - the first part into Waymouth Street, overlooking the eastern side of Light Square.
Was that the house your parents were living in?
Yes. It was like an office block thing, you know - it wasn't a real house.
So they had rooms did they? ATB/I4/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 2. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
No. It was just a place. And I don't know what was down - because, you see, I was born there, but I know I was born in the upstair room, and my grand- mother came from Moonta to my birth. For my older sister, my mother went up to Moonta and that's where she was born. Dad said, you know, he was so thrilled that he was going to have a family and that, that he didn't want anything to happen - wrong.
For how long, when you were a child, did your parents live at that place?
Oh, we left there - - -. I don't think I was even walking. Because we went up into Currie Street, and that was not a house. It was a place to let and the bedrooms were upstairs. I don't know that part of it because they might have made it as such, because it was near my father's business where he started. It was just diagonally across the road from them. That's where my young sister was born.
How long did you stay there?
I think I was about —. I don't remember going to school from there, so I must have been seven - between six and seven - when we left, and went around into Morphett Street, in Dr Mayo's old home. Beautiful old place. And we had a separate part for the staff - you know, what it was in those days. Separate kitchen and everything.
We'll talk about your house a little later on. I'd like to ask you a bit more about your family. Can you tell me your father's name?
William - just William Adams.
Was he born in Australia?
Oh no, in Belfast, Ireland, and he left there when he was a late teenager, that I could make out, and went to England because of the fighting between the Orangemen and the Irishmen. St Patrick's Day they'd have the procession - like they used to have it here - and the Orangemen would throw bricks at them, and on Orangemen's Day, vice versa. (laughs) And he left anyway and he found work up in the northern part of England, nearer to Scotland - I can't remember the little county part, the name of it. Then he got his boyfriend to come over because it was better living in England, and then they came down to the southern part of England and they heard about this Australia, and they said, 'Well, let's go out and see what it's like,' and they came out and they came here.
They were both walking down - - -. They had a place in a hotel - I can't think what hotel it was. I know that someone got into it and took all their ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 3. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
goods and took his Bible - he had brought his Bible with him and everything - and took all those things away from him, and he was heartbroken. But they were walking down King William Street and a man saw them, and he said, 'You're new chums aren't you?' - this is the way my Dad told us - and they said, 'Yes, we're from Ireland'. Because it was Ireland in those days, and the top part was Ulster - that's where England took it away. Anyhow, the man said, 'Do you want work?' and they said, 'Yes, that's what we've come out for - to make a life out here'. He said, 'Oh,' and they went up Salisbury way and they worked on a farm thing - you know, out in the grounds.
I don't know how it was that he came back into Adelaide and got into the horses part - I don't know anything about that. But I know he was in a - - Off Currie Street, there was a little street went - L-shaped, like that and then out into Morphett Street - and there was a few horses there. Then suddenly he had this place there [see copy of snapshot of father's premises at 73-75 Currie Street on file] next to the John Bull Hotel. That's this side of it [to the left] and that side of it was Tolley's [A.E. & F. Tolley] office. They were two-storey buildings, all joined together, three of them, and I can't remember the next one, but the next one was Hardy's Wines [Thomas Hardy & Sons], and then there was the drive in to the back. They had caretakers - the children used to play with us out in the front of our place, and they had this 'within' [recessed] balcony with an oval shape and they could look over.
So anyhow, I don't know what happened, but we moved, anyway, around to Morphett Street and we helped - Ruby [LS's sister] and I. My father made us a little cart with two wheels and a - - -. We had a little pet lamb and we used to harness it up and put it in there (laughs), and go down the street and back again, pushing it along of course. I have gone down with my eldest sister, down to the ice - - I think it's the education building [TAFE] where my son works now - that's the corner of Currie Street and Morphett Street. It's like L-shaped like that, because of the Square - Light Square - and here was a place that they - an ice works - and my mother had the ice chest. We used to go down there with the little cart and get a block of ice, you see, to re- cuperate the ice chest when it low.
Would the lamb still be pulling the ice?
No, we didn't bother too much, and when it got a bit older my father got rid of it. (laughs)
From what you were telling me the other day, and what I've seen by looking at the old directories to Adelaide, your father at one stage was working from two premises in Currie Street, both sides of the road. Was he? ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 4. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
I can't visualise that. I know he had - - -. Where we were [living - 92 Currie Street] there were business offices - like down - then there was just a little small lane, we called it, and there was a big paddock, and my father had that. He had horse-drawn vehicles, because he had chaff as well, and they used to deliver the big things of hay and all that sort of thing, in part of his business there. That's where those horses were kept. Where we lived, our back yard ran down and there was a fence across, you see, because the little lane came as far as our back gate and my father had made this little walk-through - - Oh no, it was as wide as from there to here [10-5']. He made it go through to the paddock so he could go through to make sure his horses were all right - those ones for those vehicles, you know. They had the trough down there for them to have a drink and everything. We used to go down and watch them come in - the men come in, and unharness the horse. But that would be that, but it wasn't in Currie Street.
So it was a paddock behind where you were living.
Yes.
Pd like to ask you a bit about your father's business. How would you describe it in the years of your childhood? What did it involve?
Well [looking at the snapshot of the premises] he had, I suppose, about thirty horses in that part [73-75 Currie Street]. In the front part was all his vehicles - you could walk up through. The office was over round this side [to the right]. And then it became all bricked and there was the trough along, and then you walked up and you were between - you know, in the stables, the backs of the horses all together there. Then around here there were more of them. He had a phone - 1343 his phone number was (laughs), and ours in Morphett Street was 3969, I remember that.
My father was very, very attached to the horses, and every night after he'd have his tea - we had midday dinner he'd come home for, you see - after tea, he'd walk around the Square - and often I used to walk with him - and up Currie Street, and he used to go in to see that the horses were all settled down for the night. They knew. They'd look up and go [makes neighing sound] neigh at him - neigh, I don't know whether they call it that now - and he'd give them a handful of bran and oats, you know, just in amongst their chaff, because they were all fed. The horses were all fed when they came in - they didn't all come in together of course, depends on how long you hired them for - and they were then taken out by the stable boy from there, just to the trough to have their drink. And the same way to hose them - every day they had to be hosed. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 5. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Was the hosing area outside the building?
[queries question]
Were they hosed down outside the building?
No, inside the building. It was all a great big bricked place, you know, the water just ran away.
You've mentioned that there was a paddock behind where you lived. Would some horses live outside at night?
No, they were all put in stalls. There were only three or four - people who wanted anything down with a trolley or a vehicle and that: The same way as up the top of Currie Street. That's where they had - there were no trams there. Currie Street was just a lovely big street. What did they call - they were there in a row?
The cabs?
Yes, but they were horse-drawn vehicles - drays and trollies and everything. Well then, when they were going to put the electric tram down Currie Street, they all moved down by Light Square.
So you could just walk up to them and hire one from the street.
Yes. They were in the middle of the street. We had gas lights - all gas, not electricity - in the streets. There was one by where we lived, and every night we used to stand out there and watch Johnny Lamplighter, we used to call him, on his bike. He'd come along with a big long stick and light the light. (laughs)
Did your father line up his horses and trollies in the street for people to hire?
No, he didn't have anything to do with that. They were individually used. If you wanted to go anywhere for a drive, you would go there to him and hire the horse and trap - horse and vehicle.
You said he had about thirty horses.
Yes, round about that. For Oakbank - they only had Oakbank [horse racing] on the Monday in those days, there wasn't a Saturday. But for Oakbank, I remember going round from our place and seeing - and he had, oh, five or six - the vehicles all ready. Of course they have to put, not oil, but grease, on the wheels. And that particular horse that was to be put in that particular vehicle - that horse's harness was hanging there, and its nosebag with its food for the day. I don't know whether they ever got their food, because they'd be running to put their money on at Oakbank. They were all ordered. There was a big five-horse drag, you know, all set up high. There were five horses for that. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 6. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Round the Devil's Elbow, oh, that was dreadful, but it was dreadful when I drove the car, even then. Even now, in the paper the other day - it's dangerous. But now it's heaven to go down around, but, oh, that was a dread- ful corner, the Devil's Elbow - it was a devil's elbow too. We used to go up there and visit a man who used to come down to our place and that. He had sheep and everything up there and he lived up in a nice house up there and we used to go and visit them. Then we used to come down the Devil's Elbow and go in there at the foot of this, and there's a lovely house in there and we used to visit them. When we went visiting we knew that we had to sit down in a chair and we did not move. All the adults talked and you sat like stuffed dummies. (laughs) No, I'm joking. But, no, we didn't be in the conversation. We knew what was going on - you know, just ordinary talking and everything.
Did your father also have the sort of vehicles that people would hire if they were moving house - a sort of dray, or that sort of thing?
No. He had a couple of tip drays and that, but they weren't - - -. You had to have a big enough horse to co-operate with those sort of vehicles you see.
Did he have any heavy horses?
He had some, yes, a couple - just a few. Not the big stallions - not those big ones that you see at the Show. That's all I go to the Show for, to look at the horses.
Did your father also have ponies?
He had this little pony that you saw a photo there [see photocopy of news- paper photographs of Mr Adams' ponies on file] and it was called Teddy. That's the one that he used to go round from Morphett Street. He used to walk around in the morning or come home at dinner time, and all that. He used to use this, you see. And that's what he used to use and we used to get up with him in that little vehicle. Go round there at seven o'clock in the morning and change into a different vehicle and bigger horse, leave that one there, and go for a drive, you see - come home at eight o'clock. Then I'd run across to Dad to give me money - 'You want a hot pie for breakfast?', 'Yes'. We'd run across to Balfour's on the corner - and it's still there, Balfour's the bakery - we used to go across and get a hot pie for our breakfast. (laughs)
Where would you drive in the morning?
We used to go down Botanic Park, and it was beautiful at autumn time when all those leaves fall at the back of the Gardens - when you come out there by Hackney. When you come out there, that's the main one, back of the Zoo, but ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 7. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
there's one you turned off and you came out there by - where the trams used to be and then the buses. I think that's going now.
Yes.
I can see it altering so much now. Then we used to go out to Magill to Mr Facey who used to build vehicles for Dad and if he wanted anything - some- body ordered one, you see, to be done. We used to drive out there, but we would sit out in the vehicle while Dad went in and talked the business to him, and then we'd come home. Ruby would drive one way and I would drive the other way. As soon as we turned for home, we changed over. One drove one way - - -. My father never drove when we were there - we did all the driving.
How young did he teach you to drive?
Oh, I suppose it must've been round about five. Round about when it was my skating days.
About your father's business, did he also hire horses for riding?
No. I always wanted to ride. I didn't have any idea of wanting to be in a Show or anything like that - for my own pleasure, you know. But the only way we did any riding was with a stable boy leading it. Oh no, Dad was frightened something would go wrong and we'd have an accident. (laughs) We didn't learn side-saddle - it wasn't that early time.
Did your father train the horses to harness himself?
Yes sometimes he would buy one from - - -. See, Barker Brothers had their big place with a big ring - they used to auction horses there that were brought down from the country, and they had a big lot of them you see. I'd be in there at an auction sale, and they used to sell there. That was in at the back of the John Bull Hotel. You went in one way but you could come out this other way, down past my father's part. The horses would be just let loose into the ring - you know, one or two at a time - and the man with the whip to make them keep running around, and the men sitting up there looking to see whether they were putting the right foot forward or the left foot or something. (laughs)
When the sale was finished the horses that were not sold, they were brought out like , sheep - in a group - and they'd come out there and walk down, and they went down to Brooklyn Park and they had this big place down there for them where you'd keep the horses. You couldn't keep horses right in the city - it was too congested.
So they were driven through the streets. ATB/I4/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 8. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Yes. And there were two men on horses used to send them down. Sometimes they'd come up along the footpath and we wouldn't dare be outside. (laughs) But we loved them.
One of the men who I interviewed as a boy used to drive sheep through the city to the butchers' shops.
Yes that's right, I've seen that happen.
So the city had very much a country feel about it.
I was always sorry when I'd see them. When we lived in Morphett Street I'd stand on the verandah, and they used to come around through, and I used to be sorry that the poor little things in one day - you knew they were going to be dead, you know. Then, of course, I had to sit down at the dinner. (laughs)
Did your father ever comment on the way that people treated his horses? Was there ill-treatment by people who hired his horses?
Well, if he thought they didn't treat it - they would never be able to hire again. He wouldn't let them have it. He was very gentle, and he'd always go in and speak and touch the horse, before he walked up past, so that the horse wouldn't kick out and knock him somewhere. The horses were in stalls, not loose boxes. There were some loose boxes around the corner part, with dif- ferent horses in.
Did he ever breed from his horses?
No, nothing like that at all.
Did you say that he trained them himself or bought them fully trained?
No he just bought them and you put them in a harness and they got used to being in the shafts and the traces and everything. When there was a sale on, one particular time, a man from Glenelg, he brought this pony up from Glenelg and he was running late to get to the auctioneer to sell the pony, you see, and he galloped it.
When it got to the place, my father saw it go in, and he went into Barker's and he looked at it and it was, oh - they called it sweating, of course, not - an animal sweats. It was really nearly gone. My father said, 'You're not putting that in there'. He said, 'I'll buy it off you'. So the man said how much he wanted and Dad put his hand in his pocket and gave him the money and he got it. And we used to put them in as a pair, because Ruby's little pony - we called her, that one - her pony, you know, she never rode it or anything. But we kept that in our back yard in Morphett Street - there was a stable in the back yard - and we used to feed it and everything for Dad. But it didn't like - ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 9. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
no it was the other one - didn't like water after having this showering. It never forgot. See, that's why it is a horse is marvellous. It never forgets good, bad or indifferent things.
We used to go up to the waterfalls and as you went through the waterfall roadway - there were two little creeks and you went through them. We used to put the two - have a pair, you see - and one didn't care about the water at all but the other one that had been hosed so badly and treated so badly, it never forgot, and it used to pull back like that, on its traces, and the other one would pull to make it go through. But it wouldn't go through anywhere. If there was water on the road it would stop like that, and go around. See, they never forget.
Do you remember your father talking about any accidents with his vehicles when people were hiring them.
Oh yes, he's had accidents. Like they turned a corner too quick or anything like that. He did have one and the people didn't tie it up properly and when you went to the waterfalls you just pulled in and tied the horse up and then went away up. It got undone and believe it or not, it came back to Adelaide. It galloped and galloped and galloped and my father said, 'Oh'. And I remember distinctly that it was galloping down Currie Street, you see, and Dad said, 'It's so-and-so' - I forget the name of the horse. Each horse had a name of course, and that went on the account - my oldest sister took the accounts - you know, kept the accounts. Anyhow, it turned to go in, but - it was all right, but only that it didn't realise that the wheel had caught the post of the verandah there - and it tipped there and they had to help it up.
END OF TAPE 1 SIDE A: TAPE I SIDE B
Did you say that the horse got injured?
No, it only just - it fell over, but they got it up and that. But the vehicle, the wheel got hurt - injured, as you would say. I forget what Dad used to charge. One and six for some distances you went. One and six, you know, in those days.
Would people hire the horses for longer than one day?
No, they always came back that night. They might come back - they'd say they'd be back at nine o'clock and whatever time. But whether Dad rented them out like that, for the number of hours, I wouldn't know - I wouldn't know that - but I know there was some - - -. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 10. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Pll tell you who he used to hire a horse and trap and a driver to - and the driver, Fred, he used to hate doing it - was the first policewoman, Kate Cocks. She used to go round in this vehicle to the houses where there were babies fostered out, and she used to go there to see if they were getting treated right. More often than not he used to come back boiling mad. I always remember my father saying, boiling mad because she'd bring the baby out and say, 'Look, isn't it lovely?' Of course he couldn't care less about the baby. (laughs) Yes, Kate Cocks. And you see, that was on - that was booked up, and we got the account for that. That was a Government sort of thing, a Police thing, you see.
There were people who hired to go - like they do now, agents. You know, they go round to the shops to see if they want any more. What do you call them?
Corn mercial traveller type people.
Yes, that's what it is - corn mercial traveller. Well, he had those permanently booked - oh, half a dozen or more. Different places in Adelaide. They used to go out to the different parts, you see, to get the orders. Well that part was booked up, you see, and my sister would keep the account.
So he would also sometimes provide a driver for people as well, would he, like for Kate Cocks?
Yes for Kate Cocks he would, yes. Yes, she was nice. And she used to - - There were some people used to walk down Morphett Street and of course they worked for the - prostitutes, you know - and they were scouts. They were not young. They were older than the people that did the work, if you call it work. They used to walk down and around to meet any men they could, you see, clients. My father was boiling mad because in the summer Mum and Dad would sit out on the verandah after tea, and then about ten o'clock Dad would go to bed. But he used to get so annoyed, so he told Kate Cocks about it and she stopped them.
Yes, she was certainly a well known character.
Oh yes. Yes, she was marvellous. My father thought she was just a wonderful person because she did her work - she was so conscientious in doing it.
Looking at this little photograph, did the vehicles drive right through into the building?
No, there [on the right] - that's the drive. That is a driveway through. That part there [far right], that's Tolley's. They'd come down past there and turn in. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 11. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
And you had a building right up next to you on the other side, did you?
That's the John Bull Hotel.
So you couldn't drive through on that side.
No. No, it was a big open thing there [the left front of the building], but you couldn't drive in because it was the gutter, see, and you didn't drive up a gutter. That was the gutter and here was this little [lane]. It went up there and this was Tolley's and you turned in, into the back of my father's, and then of course there was a further part for him. But if you went on further you came to where the auctioneers - - -. That's the back way out - that's the way they used to sometimes bring the horses. But my father stopped that because the horses would come into his place instead of walking straight into Currie Street.
Was his office on this side - on the right hand side of the building?
[queries question]
His office area.
Yes, it was on the right hand side but in the back. This part [at the right front] was the vet and he hired that out. It was fenced in, and it was like a - just a little - —. You can see a door there - you can see it's like a shop. Yes, well that was the vet.
Do you remember his name?
No.
He had his own practice.
Yes.
Would your father use him?
Oh yes. He rented that part from Dad. But Dad didn't own that. I think Barker Brothers owned it, like they owned the John Bull at that time.
So your father didn't own the premises.
He didn't own the premises. No, I don't remember that.
Did your father have anyone in partnership with him in the business?
At one time he had the man that - I think his name was McNeil. He did the fodder - you know, chaff and hay and all that sort of thing - he did that for a while. But it wasn't a success so that was broken off.
How many people did your father have working for him? ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 12. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
I don't know. I think only about four - yes, I think four.
You've mentioned - was his name Fred Chapman?
Yes, he was one of them, and there was a younger one and they called him the stable boy. He did more different things. Because there was a terrific lot of work to do and you had to put your - - -. You had to clean the stalls - you know, clean up. Then night time, like, there was the place where their food was put - where they ate into - and underneath that was all straw, and even- ing time that was all brought down, because that's for the horse to sleep on. They slept on all this beautiful straw, and then in the morning that had to be all scraped up again and put back.
So that was stored away during the day.
Yes. Oh yes, had to be away. And my father was as meticulous there as he would be home with us. Because my mother would say, 'You don't do that, you know, Lily' and I didn't do it. But now if you say that, they say, 'Oh, but we do'. (laughs) I'm not criticising, but I mean, that's how you lived in those days. Your parents were the ones.
From one of the photographs in the newspaper, did your father have cats living in the stable?
[queries question]
Cats.
Oh yes, they used to come and live in there. I couldn't tell you now whether we fed them or not. I suppose Dad provided the material for them to eat and that was that, but they used to come in.
During the 1920s, did your father's business suffer with motorcars coming in?
Not to a lot of extent. We didn't go — Of course in 1920 I was already working, you see, and I didn't take in any of that. But there was no - - Finance wasn't drawn out. We still had good clothes and everything the best, you know - all the best. They used to always know us down in the shops - 'Yes, Mrs Adams,' and 'What would Rita want to wear today? What will you have Lily?' - and she'd pick out the dresses and try them on.
So were you comfortably off?
Yes. Oh yes, we had everything. Well, you see, my father bought that [a ring he gave LS when she was eighteen] and just no talk about it at all. Yes, he gave us everything. And the main thing about Dad, he loved to hear you having a good time, and when we'd go out anywhere and you'd come home, ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 13. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
you'd sit and talk and tell him all the things, and he'd roar laughing at the things we've done and everything, you know. That was his life, but he never ever went with us. No, never went with us. I have been to the Show with him - down to the part where the horses and things were. I went one time when it was down the Exhibition, and we parked the pony and trap and we went in the back way. I think it's University or something buildings there now, last time I went down that way. We used to go in that way to go in and look at all the different things, and then go into the stand and the Jubilee Oval.
But, see, my father never went to any of the concerts we were in. But I always remember in the old church, that's the St Patrick's - they turned that into a hall, and they used to have concerts there for funds. I always remember one time we were singing. There were three of us, Sissy Leonard, Vi Gittings and I, and it was called 'Mystic Sisters Three' - 'Faith, Hope and Charity' - and I looked down, and down in the foyer part, my father was standing there. But he didn't come up and sit. He was there for the concert because he wanted to see us on the stage. Vi Gittings was Faith, and she sang a solo, and then Sissy Leonards - she was Hope - and I had the deep voice, and I was Charity. But those two sang, then we sang in between. I always remember people looking. I suppose they thought, 'Oh, that poor thing, she's not going to get a solo'. Then - and it was: When a miser clasps his treasure Viewing it with greedy eye Then I sing with hopeless pleasure What is wealth when mortals die? Then the hand that grasps the treasure Scatters it around And then Charity is found. And then we said 'Thus you move, unseen, unheard - - always remember that. Very often I sing it a bit here - quietly. (laughs)
You've mentioned Oakbank being a popular day for your father's business.
Oh yes.
What other occasions during the year?
Oh, the Show, and the Exhibition. You know, every four years or something there was a big Exhibition. When there was anything on anywhere outside where they could walk, they hired a vehicle to go. But they hired a vehicle for a Sunday afternoon to go to Henley Beach for the afternoon, or to go - - Of course you wouldn't need a nosebag for the horse, or anything, for those sort of things, and you wouldn't put it out of the trap - you know, unharness it. Down to Glenelg, down to the Semaphore - down those parts. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 14. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
It sounds as though your father must have worked very long hours.
Oh yes, terrific - terrific long hours. All at once, we'd be at the table, and Dad would say, 'You look tired,' to Mum, and he'd say, 'You'd better go off for a holiday'. We wouldn't go back to school. Mum would let the nuns know that we were going away, and we'd go up to Broken Hill or - all over the - across to Melbourne - for holidays.
We went to the Melbourne Cup one year and Uncle Thomson was there and we stopped at his home and with my cousins - two boys and a girl. Uncle Tom said to my mother - we went for the Melbourne Cup - 'You can't take the • children there,' you know - 'It's too bad. The crowds are dreadful,' and all this sort of going on, so we stayed home. Mum went. I don't know how they went to the Melbourne Cup - to the racecourse - and my mother was so annoyed. She said, 'Look, you would have loved it and there was no crowd and all like that. He thought it was too much for children to go'. Of course Rita could have gone because she was a big girl.
But my mother nearly keeled over when - - -. She said, 'What did you do?' and I said, 'Oh, we went with Eileen' - that's our cousin. We went along the banks of the river and there was a man there fishing, and of all things he caught an eel, and it was like a snake. Oh, my mother, she said, 'There you are, you see'. She wouldn't say that to Dad, you know - didn't tell him all that. She said, 'There you are, you see. You would've been better off at the race- course'. Oh, it was a little path like this, and down into the river, and we had to walk one behind the other.
Did your father ever take a holiday with you?
No, never. [Break in recording when Mrs Shalless's son delivered photographs of the Adams' horse, buggy and driver that took Mr Tolley (presumably Mr F.O. Tolley of Park Terrace, Gilberton) to and from his business premises next to Adams' stables each day. See copy of one of the photographs on file.]
Tell me about this photograph.
That's when Mr Tolley came through the [Botanic] Park from Hackney. He was on the corner - a lovely old home - on the corner of a road that goes out that way. I couldn't tell you which road - what it's called nowadays. Then you'd come in through - I know there's a pub just there - you'd come in the gates then to come through Botanic Park, and then you'd come up the road into North Terrace. The driver used to - yes, that was him, Fred - he used to have to harness that up and go out and pick him up and bring him to the ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 15. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
office, and then he'd let them know when he wanted to go home, and get all into the regalia again, and take him home.
Would Fred wear that kind of livery for anybody else?
No, nobody else wanted it. (laughs) Just as well. And these [the shafts] - by rights they should be straight, but because they belong to that kind of a vehicle - the shafts.
That's a very beautiful horse.
Yes, beautiful.
Were all your father's horses turned out that way?
Yes, lovely horses - beautiful. They had to be washed down and brushed down and - done proper. If they were hot when they came home, they didn't hose them down with a cold hose, you see. They let them get off a bit and then they did them. There's a way of doing things. Like you wouldn't jump into a cold bath when it was below zero. (laughs) See the long whip he's got.
Yes.
Yes, well that's taken as you're going through.
In the Park.
In the Park, yes - Botanic Park.
So that's two photographs of the same — -.
Yes. This one - the little creek runs in underneath there. I think the Zoo's over this side. Yes, two different ones. I don't get that, but they're on dif- ferent days because there's a man behind here.
Yes, that's right.
But I don't think that white thing is there, is it?
No.
That's the rug that he put over him.
Did Fred like dressing up that way?
No, he did not, but he had to do it because it was his living. And he had to come back then and sweep the stables. (laughs) He used to put this in the office - hang all that in the office. I think Mr Tolley provided that. I wouldn't be surprised that he didn't - I don't know if he owned the vehicle or not, but the horse was Dad's, and the harness naturally. Many a time I've harnessed a horse. Yes, lovely. And when you're putting the bit in - and their mouths are so soft and beautiful. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 16. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Did your father have any difficult horses?
Yes, he had them that was - well, Pd call them moody. It might have been that they didn't feel up to it, you know, not well or something. I don't know, but he didn't have them not well and the vet had to give them medicine and all that.
When a horse got too old to work, what happened to them then?
Well, they were destroyed. But Dad would just send them to be done. I don't know where, or the whereabouts of any of those sort of things.
They're beautiful photographs.
Aren't they, yes? For those days. Yet nowadays they say, 'Oh, isn't that beautiful'. They wouldn't do that in the old days - there you are.
I think that was - his name was Krischock, and he had a photography studio in Rundle Street or somewhere. He took my photos of - my other ones, you know.
Oh, the ones of you skating?
Yes, the skating ones.
So your father had quite a thriving business with the horses.
Oh yes. See, he was sought after for the horses.
Did he have any competition in the area?
Yes. Now what was that man's name? Badman? - not Bradman. Badman. There was a Badman somewhere about then. I think he was further down Currie Street, but it wasn't as big as Dad was. But they were quite friendly and everything, and if Dad didn't have it he'd send [the customer] down to him. That's the way they lived. Of course that was my father, you know, he wasn't a bit spiteful or anything. He didn't take any umbrage at anybody like that. Yet he stuck up for everything.
Did you ever have any chores to do in the stables yourself?
No. Oh no, not us. (laughs) No, we didn't have anything like that at all. We could go round and walk around between the stalls and everything. But you had to be very careful because when the horse hears your footsteps, some- times he kicks his back leg out and you might get it - in any part of you. So you were very careful to walk quietly down. You see, they're tied up, and naturally they would be ready to defend themselves from anything. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 17. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Do you know whether your father agisted the horses out in paddocks anywhere to give them a rest?
No, they didn't need a rest like that. Oh, I think it'd be down there at - no, it wasn't Brooklyn Park because that was Barker Brothers. It was somewhere we used to go down and he'd say that's so-and-so, so it must have been something somewhere, but I don't remember anything about it.
Do you remember whether he'd have an off-season in his business that wasn't as busy as other times of the year?
No, I don't think so.
Did your father's business die with him?
Yes. Yes, it finished. Well you see, it was then that the cars were starting more. The thing is - I used to laugh at - we used to go to Oakbank with him, you see, but he never ever went in a horse and trap. He hired a car. (laughs) And Wally Rankin used to come with us - you know, from the pub next door. And when the pub was getting built, Wally went across and had a room to live in - to sleep in - up above the man that did hairdressing, and that, almost opposite the pub. But he used to come down to our place for breakfasts and dinner - no, not breakfast, dinner and tea he used to come. Because I remember Christmas time, my mother's big clothes basket - you know, for the clothes from the line - full of toys and games and everything that Ruby and I were to have, because Mum wouldn't take any money from him for the food and that, for the simple reason that his mother died in my mother's arms, up at the hotel. We used to go into the hotel - Auntie Liza was the cook there - and we used to go into the hotel. I remember going in one time, when we went up on the balcony to watch a plane come up and a man - the first man with a - - -. What do you call them? You know, they get out and then they pull the string.
Oh, the parachute.
We saw him come down. (laughs) And we were frightened that it wouldn't open up - and there's that little space of time. Yes, I remember that part.
Was your Auntie Liza your mother's sister?
Yes, my mother's eldest sister.
She worked in the hotel.
Yes, she worked as a cook there.
I'd like to ask you a little bit about your mother. What was your mother's name? ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 18. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Jane. Just Jane Mackey.
Where was she born?
As far as I can make out, it would be Moonta or Wallaroo or one of those parts. But I think Moonta, because that's where that little cottage was, you know, that I showed you, with Auntie May.
What did her family do for a living?
My grandfather, he and Grandma came out in a sailing ship - from what I could hear from them, and from Mum - and they went up there for the Moonta mines, and he worked in the mine. And they're buried up there - they both died up there.
Did you ever know them?
No, because, you see, my grandfather had already died and Grandma came down from Moonta for my birth. I wouldn't be remembering anything about her at all.
And she died soon after, did she?
Apparently, yes, I wouldn't know. But we never had her visit us or anything like that. She died up at Moonta.
How many brothers and sisters did your mother have?
Oh goodness me. That was hard for me to think the other day, wasn't it? Uncle Thomson was the eldest, and there's Auntie Lily, Auntie Liza, Aunty Alice, Auntie May - she was adopted. That's only five. Oh, then there's Uncle Bill - I said Tom didn't I?
Yes.
There's another one, and I can't think of him.
So it was a big family.
Oh yes, quite a big family. They separated around and that, and Auntie Lily married Tom Keating, up in the railway town, and they had two girls and a boy. Uncle Thomson went over to Melbourne and he married there, because it was he that we went to the Melbourne - that Mum when to the Melbourne Cup with.
You've mentioned going for holidays to Broken Hill. Did you have relations there?
We had Auntie Alice. See, Auntie Alice had a big house - it's still there - in Carrington Street. Every time I go in by bus, the bus pulls into a stop just ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 19. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
there, and as we start off I see her house and I think of her. It was three houses - two-storey ones, joined. She was in the end one and she let rooms. She married in Trinity Church, Uncle Hughie Hughie Farrell - and we went down to the church. Of course in those days we [Catholics] didn't go in there, into other churches, but we went anyway, to Trinity Church. Lovely old place you know. But we were amazed that you knelt on hassocks, because in our church you kneel on wood. We thought it was lovely. (laughs)
Anyhow, Auntie Alice - they were there - but Uncle Hughie would go away to the - -. I don't know, he used to go mining or something. But he made money enough with it, but they stopped in that house you see. When Uncle Hughie would go away, Auntie would say, 'Let Lily come up and stop with me for company'.
END OF TAPE 1 SIDE B: TAPE 2 SIDE A
You were telling me about staying with your Auntie Alice.
Yes. Well then, she and Uncle Hughie, they went up to Broken Hill and in a part - I remember there was a train ran down the middle of the street, like it did here to go down to Glenelg - I've been in that many times. They had this big boarding house and the men who worked night - worked shifts, shift work - they boarded there and they had their meals there. Of course we used to go there and we used to have our meal at another table in the dining room, and they were all there. What did they call their lunch - their food they take? There was a name for it, and it was all just wrapped up. They were all on the table and each one knew that when they were going out in the dining room they'd take it to go off to work.
Did your mother ever do any work before she married?
Before, no. Well, the work she did was looking after people. Like, she looked after Mrs Rankin, you see. See that's where it is. She was looking after her for the - -
Did she do any nursing?
No, not that I know of. I don't know anything about her working days other than, she must have been with the Rankins a long time, because they treated her as another mother.
So she was living at the John Bull Hotel, was she?
don't know. I don't know whether she slept there or not - I wouldn't know that. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 20. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Did your parents ever tell you how they met?
[queries question]
Did your parents ever tell you how they met?
No. No, they didn't. Probably at the pub. (laughs) No, I don't know how they met, actually. If Rita was here, she'd know. She's seven years older than me. Naturally she'd know more things.
You had just the one other sister, who was two years younger.
Yes. Yes, I'm the middle one of the three, and I'm always sorry for anybody that's the middle one of three. When they're both the same - you know, feminine [sex].
Yes, because you were all three girls.
Yes, all three girls.
And your younger sister was Ruby.
Yes, Ruby Pearl.
Let's talk a little bit about the house that you grew up in. Do you have many memories of the Currie Street rooms that you lived in?
I know the rooms. I can visualise them now, because there was the front room like this would be, then you'd walk through here and then there was another room there. There was a dining room table there but we never ever dined there - we dined down in the kitchen. They had a couch alongside the table there and I sat on that. Sometimes while I was waiting for the next bit, I'd lie down - I'd lean over on it. (laughs)
Yes, people often had a couch in the kitchen, didn't they?
My mother had - I don't know what they'd call it. It wasn't a cancer - well it could be now - but it was a big thing like that, about that thick, and growing in her neck.
Was that a goitre?
Well, it could've been, but they cut it out, and Dr Lynch did that. He did it on the table in the front room. The piano sitting there and here's Mum on the round table there. And I remember distinctly Auntie Julia came and cooked our meal that day. Of course it was a wood stove and everything. Was that while you were still in Currie Street? ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 21. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Yes. And suddenly down comes Doctor, with this piece, and he threw it in the fire. He said, 'It's all done,' and he threw it in the fire. I was so disgusted, even though I was only - I think I was five or five and a half. I know now that children at that age now, that some people say, 'Oh aren't they clever - they remember this?' and I think to myself, 'Well I remembered when I was that age'. The nuns told us that you use the inside of your head - everything that happens gets marked in, and if it gets too - - I thought afterwards, if it gets too marked in there's no room for the rest of it. (laughs)'
What other sort of illness do you remember in the family when you were a child? You've mentioned that you had whooping cough.
Oh I did, yes.
Was that as a girl?
When I was in Currie Street - I was only little. Yes, and I used to bring blood up. And, I'll tell you what, I remember once I coughed so much my mother ran out and brought me inside. She was frightened I might bring blood into the gutter. Anyhow, I had the whooping cough and nothing would save it. They said, 'No,' and even my father's doctor - it was Dr Todd, and he was on the corner there by the Cathedral, a lovely building - that was his doctor. And Dr Lynch was in - I think it's a boarding house or something now, belonging to some denomination or something. I don't know, but it's just there - lovely home - next to the Cathedral practically.
Anyhow, somebody told my father that the cure - - -. It was an old man - he was a caretaker for Barker Brothers, like the office part of Barker Brothers' saleyards - and he, Mr McGowan, he told my father - he said, 'You get the pears from the prickly pears, and boil them, strain it and then put some sugar in and heat it up, and let her have that'. And that cured me. And when I told the doctor at one time, he said, 'Oh yes, they use that for - - -I - something else now, I forget what it is. I said, I bet they do.
But at that time - when you went down Henley Beach Road, when you got down by - oh, past Mile End, way down further - you could see right across. There was two or three houses only, and it was all - and you could see right across to the Bay Road. Of course it's Anzac Highway now. We used to see the tram going down - you know, when you were going doing Henley Beach Road - but it was alive with prickly pears. They had a dickens of a time getting rid of them, but the pears - it was the pears, not the prickly part - the pears themselves. The boy used to have to go down in the horse and trap and pick them, because it was almost anybody's property. It was a big paddock and ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 22. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
that was that. I don't know how often he went, but I remember - I always distinctly remember - it tasted beautiful and I asked my mother for it. I used to say I wanted some of it. But that cured me.
Did your mother have any of her own home remedies that she used on the family?
Yes. Well, I don't know about anything like medication of any description - I don't remember that. But I only know that when I was a child - and even now would be - out in the sun, I didn't sunburn like my two sisters and go brown. I went red and blistered, and when I come home my mother was always ready, and she'd just slice a tomato in half and rub it on, and that used to ease the pain. Because it was very painful, and always on the shoulders. You just had only a little bit across here. Of course now I'd get it everywhere, wouldn't I, if I was modern. (laughs) Yes, I never like to be out in the sun. I had freckles, and the others didn't have freckles.
[I remember going to see the Light memorial unveiled in Light Square in 1905 when 1 was six years old and we were living in Currie Street. We walked from there to the Square. My mother pushed my youngest sister in a big old- fashioned wicker pram and I walked on one side and my elder sister walked on the other. Another lady went with us. I think she was the one who did house- work for Mum. When we got to Light Square we saw them pull a big piece of material away from the monument and I can remember that Mother was very disappointed to find that the monument was so plain. LS (as told to the inter- viewer on a later visit)]
Well, let's talk about the family's move to Morphett Street. That was No. 64 Morphett Street.
That's right. Then it became 176. They altered it because of the different buildings or something.
You've mentioned that it was Dr Mayo's old home.
Yes.
Did your father buy it?
No, they wouldn't sell it. It was in - I don't know what it was, but - -
So you were renting.
Yes.
Was your family the only one living in the house? ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 23. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Yes. When we went there it had been - - -. The people went out of it and they left people - residents - not boarders, only just had rooms, you know. Because you'd walk down the passage, there was the lounge on the side - drawing room it was called, a big one. There was Mum and Dad's bedroom, here was our bedroom - we three girls - and there was the dining room, and then there was this kitchen open out like that, and the bathroom off it. No, the bathroom out there. Then we went out into a square place where the tank - you know, the water tank - and the kitchen there. Then there was this other building with a kitchen for the staff, you see, and a room next to it was the - what do you call the one that drives the horses?
The coachman.
The coachman, for the doctor, you see. That's where he lived, that was his bedroom, and just here, off the kitchen, there was a door, and there was a space there - here there was a door and a room and that was for the staffs' dining room or whatever they liked to use it for - lounge, drawing room we called it. And then there was a staircase and there were three rooms up top, and they were let. But when we went in they were all given notice to go when they got something. Not immediately, or anything like that. But my father hated it because the three people that lived upstairs - they were men - they had to come down through and around our kitchen and we'd be sitting there having our meal and my fatherld go, 'Huh', like that, and that was significant. Oh, he hated anybody else in the place, you know.
This room here, we'd turned into a dining room, that was a lady and her daughter, and her daughter worked at Vardon's, the printers. She got married and she married in the Cathedral too. The mother used to go and be a night nurse - to take care of an elderly person - so she wasn't there in the night, and then she used to come home. We didn't see her very much at all. She didn't cook in our kitchen, so I don't know where they cooked. They probably went out to the other one out the back, you see, because the staff had to have their own kitchen. Their food mustn't touch the doctor's food, you know!
Did that woman and her daughter move out fairly soon?
Yes, the mother went quickly after the daughter married, you see. I think her name was White, but I know she married a man with the name of O'Laughlan and she got married in the Cathedral and we went to see the ceremony and that. She must have turned [Catholic] for him, because in those days if you didn't belong to the Church you didn't get married before the altar, because my mother and father were married in the priest's house, you see, up at St ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 24. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Patrick's because Mum wasn't a Catholic. But Mum died a Catholic in Calvary.
While you were living there did anybody use what had been the staff quarters?
No.
So that was empty.
That was empty, yes, all the time. The only time that somebody came in there was the people in the - two Misses O'Dea, they ran the boarding house next door to us which had a little driveway through there. You couldn't get through - it was fenced, and I don't know why it was there, but anyhow, it was like that little drive-thing. Not a drive, but a space - a gutter in the centre. When the Misses O'Dea decided they were too old to have boarders, they all had to leave. Well these Ahearns, they came and - two of them came, brother and sister - and they used the kitchen and that. My mother let them come in for the time being until they found another place. I think they came from up O'Halloran Hill there somewhere, the Ahearns. One was a policeman.
Did your mother ever have any help in the home?
No. Only when she was sick, we had the nurse come in, and when she was sick - the last sickness - we had a day and a night sister for her, because she had cancer in the gullet. She died a fornight after Dad - was buried a fortnight after Dad.
We'll talk about that a little bit later on. Refresh my memory - did all of you girls have your own rooms?
No, we all slept in one room. There was a double bed and a single bed. Ruby, when we were in Currie Street, I remember her. We used to go to nine o'clock Mass at the Cathedral, we three children, and Ruby was sleeping in Mum's room - Mum and Dad's room - in a cot, and she went to get out. I went to the door - went through there and then we had to go down the stairs, you see, this is in Currie Street - and she went to get out and her leg gave out and she couldn't walk.
So we went to Mass, Rita and I, and then Mum got the doctor, and it was infantile paralysis - that is now, polio. She used to walk, oh, like that [limping] you know, with her foot, so of course she couldn't do much at all. We had to carry her everywhere, and we used to take her mornings to Wakefield Street Hospital for her to have massage. It didn't improve it so Dad said she'd got to go to Dr Todd. So took her to Dr Todd and he put an electric battery thing on her and she walked, but she still walked like that. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 25. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
One day I was going down to Jar men's with her to help her get a pair of shoes - see, the middle girl! I was only a little bit older than her, but I was years older otherwise. I remember going down to Jar men's, down in Hindley Street, to get her something she said and Mother said, 'No, you cannot'. She wanted Cuban heels on her shoes. You know, not the little flat ones - she wanted it a bit higher. And Mother said, 'You can't have them. You won't be able to walk, Ruby,' and Dad said, 'What's going on?' You mustn't have a cross word in our home. He just wanted to know and you'd ease it out, you see - we never had any arguments like that. Well, Ruby and I did on the quiet - we sneaked it. (laughs) But anyhow, Mum said, 'Oh, Ruby wants those Cuban heel shoes,' and she said, 'She'll never walk in them'. Dad said, 'If she wants them, let her have them' - I can hear him say it now - 'and if she doesn't walk and if she falls over, that'll be her own fault'. That was his attitude.
So, down we go, and I said to Mrs Jarmen, 'Mum said she can try on the Cuban heels'. She tried them on and she walked straight - it straightened her. See, it was the very thing she wanted, that little bit. So home we come, and Mum said, 'How'd you get on?' I said, 'It's all right' and she walked in them, and Dad said, 'There you are'. (laughs) And after that she wore these big high heels. Dancing, she used to - - Oh, we used to go three or four times a week to different dances. Up in Osborne Hall, down the Palais Royal.
Let's talk a little bit more about your home during your childhood. Did you have much of a yard at the house at Morphett Street?
Morphett Street. Yes. Quite a good size. You can see where Dad's standing there with the horse and vehicle - did you see that?
Yes, the snapshot.
Yes, well that's part of it there, and the stable part was just along here. When you came in the driveway, you shared the driveway to the two gates like that, to a little cottage next door - Kennedy's lived there. Mr Kennedy had the wood shop right down by the - - It's where Peter [LSts son] works now - you know, it's been all done. We used to go and get wood there for the copper.
You've mentioned that you stabled a pony in your yard.
Yes, we had the stables.
Would your father keep more than one horse in the home?
No, only had one, and that was the one to take him to and from the stables. Instead of him walking around - it took longer, you see. He liked to drive around. And the pony knew which way he was going every time. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 26. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
I guess it was good for business, too.
Yes, of course, I hadn't thought of that side. (laughs)
Did you have any other animals in the house or yard? Did you keep fowls?
Yes we had fowls for a while, but not too long. What did we have? We had a cocky. Oh, we had a couple of rabbits and suddenly they started to breed and my father killed them all. I said, 'What is he killing them for?' and Mother said, 'Oh, they're breeding'. So we had them in this big long thing that you could run in, you know, and he just picked them up and hit them on the back of the necks. I can't think what else. Oh, we had a dog. And we also had a dog come into our place and I got it to come out and it turned around on me and jumped up at me, and it got my finger, and it's still got it there.
Were there a lot of stray dogs in the streets?
Oh no, not that you'd notice. Over in the Square people used to take them to run around on the lawn and all that.
Did you grow any vegetables in your yard?
No. Rita did - she grew something one time, and Dad let the pony eat it so she never did [any more LS]. Because her name was Pansy, you see - Rita Pansy - and this, as you come in the gate there, this is where - - -. The stables come out you, you see, like that, and you come in the gate. Well there was a little three-cornered part there that you could put things in, and she put pansies all along the edge, and the horse ate them - the pony ate them. And Rita said, 'It's eaten my flowers,' and Dad said, 'Oh, yes, he loves them'. That's all he said. (laughs) So she never planted any more. Mum had pot plants - quite a number there. In the little alcove part between the back wall of the kitchen and the tank. Because alongside the tank was the copper that you did the - - -. And we had the two big - what do you call them, basin things on the top of a stand? And I used to stand up on a thing and wash our handkerchiefs and wash the socks.
Troughs.
Yes.
What sort of chores did you have to do in the household?
Dusting. I had to do all the dusting and you've got no idea. Pm almost like that [here], with all these little things. Oh, terrific. And the piano. The back part on the piano - the top of it - was all little things, stems like that, and a middle thing. It was a beautiful piano - a Wertheim they called it. Of course ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 27. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
it was German. They were the best pianos those days - I don't know whether they are now. I don't know whether they are even in existence, you know, after the War, being German, everybody thought anything called German, that was the finish. It's so silly - for the next generations on.
What do you remember thinking of that at the time?
I don't remember. I think I just went along with it. But I used to help with those sort of things. Rita did the - being a big girl and being so much older - she naturally did - - Of course my father didn't think any girls should go to work. He could keep us so why worry. But four women in the house - whatever would you do? See, that's what I said to my mother. I said, 'Mum, Ruby leaves school next year. Whatever's going to go on?' She said, 'What do you want to do?' I said, 'I'd like to get a job and go to work,' and she said, 'Well, you do it, but don't tell your father. Not until you've got it or got going'. I said, 'All right'.
Well, there was a - - In the hotel next to Dad, when they rebuilt, the modernised it you see, there. They built a little shop there and a Mr Duignan had leather goods and harness and all that, right next door to my father. A couple of people said to Dad, 'You oughtn't to allow them to come in. You ought to have objected,' and Dad said, 'No, opposition's the best thing. People will come down where there's two of us to choose from, whereas if there's only one and you've got to walk further down - - -1. He [Mr Duignan] was further down, but they rebuilt that, you see, and he couldn't be there. Anyhow, [Veronica] Duignan was in the Cathedral choir, Ron Duignan was the singer and Leo Dignum went to - and Clem - they went to Dominicans until they got to about ten and then they had to go to CBC [Christian Brothers College].
Maggie Duignan [his eldest daughter LS] owned a couple of houses and she used to go down to collect the rent in Waymouth Street, and she used to pass our place in order to get there - every fortnight or so. She'd call in, you see, and she said, 'How are things going?' you see - I was sitting in the drawing room. Mum said, 'Oh, Lily wants to go to work' - I think I was just on eighteen. 'Lily wants to go to work?' she said, 'Do you,' she said, 'What do you want to do?' I said, 'Well I'd like to do clerical work,' I said, 'I would never have the patience to serve people, because,' I said, 'if they looked at me and said, "I don't know whether I like it or not", I'd just as likely to throw it at them'. I was quick - a bit now too. (laughs) Anyhow, she said, ask Mr Fiddaman in Moore's'. She asked him. He said, 'Oh, send her in,' so I went in on the Friday and they put me in at the desk in a department, to give change. • ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 28. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Because they put desks out for Friday night shopping, you see, instead of it going down into the tubes in the basement. So I was there, and then they stopped all that and I was up in the office. Then they had me taught the comptometer.
But when I was gone to work, Dad come home for dinner, you see, and I had already been home and got a snack and gone back. See, you walk from Morphett Street to Moore's, that was easy. He said, 'Where's Lily?' - because I sat on his right - and Mum said, 'Oh, she's been home and had lunch. She's got herself a job'. And he said, 'A job!' - I can imagine him just glaring. And he said, 'Oh. Oh, it won't last long,' just like that. Later on when they had me taught the comptometer I had four girls under me - five, but I don't count Mabel because she did the entries. I did all the cashiers, and we had to balance the cashiers and do the stock sheets, and we had to decimalise every- thing on the comptometer. But when you did the dockets, you turned them here and you felt here [worked the machine without looking at it]. Some were down lower. The even numbers were straight on the top and the others had a curve, and you knew which one you were working. It was one of the photos that I told you - I showed you.
We'll talk more about your working days a little later on. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about your household when you were growing up. Did you have running water in the house?
No, only in the bathroom, and we didn't have a heater in the bathroom in those days. And we washed up in a dish on the table. Cleared the table and then wash up. I used to usually do the washing up - I hated drying up - and those two did the drying. Those two, you know, my two sisters. And then we'd put everything away and guess where we'd go? Up to the drawing room, Rita at the piano, me with the violin, and we used to play duets, trios - because I played the violin. When I went to learn the violin, I loved it, and Mum bought me a little one like that when I was little. I used to get around with two sticks, and thinking I was playing the violin.
Anyway, Mum said, 'Don't tell your father until you've - - - he loved a violin - 'Don't tell your father until you can play it'. So we practiced and everything, and then I played, and it was the 'Keel Row' - you know the 'Keel Row'? [LS hums the tune] - and I was playing that when Dad came in. We did it on purpose. We heard him come in and everything was right, you see. He said, 'Oh, visitors,' or something, and Mum said, 'No,' she said, 'it's Lily and Rita up there'. He said, 'Oh'. She said, 'Go up and see,' she said. 'It's Lily is playing'. And he came up and I can see him now. He came to the door, and his ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 29. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
face - it was elated, and he said, 'Play it again,' and I played it again. But, see, we used to go up and sing and everything.
END OF TAPE 2 SIDE A: TAPE 2 SIDE B
Did your father play the violin himself?
No, just loved the music. I wouldn't know why or anything, but he loved the violin. But he never wanted to come —. Dad would go into the dining room —. We'd dine sometimes in the dining room but most times in the kitchen - it was a nice big kitchen. But we had a lovely fireplace in the dining room and of course we used to light the fire there. Dad'd sit there and Mum'd be sitting mending things and darning socks and all that sort of thing, by the table, and the fire's just there nice and warm - not in the summer of course - and we'd be up at the piano and playing, you know. We'd play the trio, and I was the middle one, playing this like this on the piano. We used to be out in concerts and everything, but mostly for the churches or schools and all that.
[When we lived at Morphett Street, Mother used to take we three girls to every play - be it comedy or drama - that was on at the Theatre Royal. We had booked seats in the front row of the dress circle and I can remember that the girl who took our coats always greeted Mother by name. Mother would only let us stand up once after we got to our seats to look over the balustrade to see the people coming in below. Then Mother would say, 'Sit down,' and we wouldn't get up out of our seats again. Not like children today! LS (as told to the Interviewer at a later visit)]
As you mentioned earlier on, your father was a Catholic but your mother originally wasn't.
No, that's right.
Did that cause any conflict in the family?
Never. Never ever. And when Rita was starting school, so I learned later, Mum said, 'What school to go?' and Dad said, 'Well it's a girl, and so leave it to you. You're the one who should know. If it was a boy I would know where to send,' and Mum said, 'Oh'. So Mum thought, well - - In those days, if you went to State school, you were poverty stricken. Snobbery - you've got no idea! I was brought up with it like that and I hate it - I hated it all my life. Anyhow, Mum thought, 'Well, we're near enough to the [Dominican] Convent'. This was when we were in Currie Street, when Rita went to school, you see. So she went up and saw the nuns and Rita went there, you see, to their school. Of course naturally, then, I went when we went round into Morphett Street. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 30. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
But I used to wait outside at our Currie Street home for Rita to come home from school, and she'd put her school bag in - say hello and goodbye to Mum - and down we'd go. She'd get the money to pay to go in - down to the skating rink. I always waited for her to come home - different days of the week that she got home early enough. But Rita played the piano marvellously.
At what age did you start skating?
Five. See we only skated in the winter - they closed for the summer. Because it was bad for your health in those days, so they said, to go into a cold place from the heat - because it'd be a century - or vice versa, coming out into the heat. So it was always done in the winter time.
You skated at the Glaciarium.
Yes, that's what it was called - yes, Glaciarium.
How many years did you do that?
Only one. When I got to over six, it went broke. And Professor Corvil was going to teach me to skate on one leg and get around. He was just teaching me and holding me just a little bit - by a fingertip for me to get my balance. He was ready to grab me. But it went through because people got tired of going out of the cold into the cold and sitting freezing. Of course they sat with these heaters under their feet.
You've shown me the beautiful photographs [see copies of three on file] you have of you in skating costumes. These were for fancy dress carnivals were they?
Yes. Yes, had them pretty often there. The first one I went to, I went as Red Riding Hood. I only wore the Red Riding Hood - - -. My mother dressed [Ruby and me] as though we were twins, and when I got to ten or eleven, oh, it hurt me to be dressed the same - and people thought you were twins. Anyhow, I wore that then, and I've still got the pinny that I wore.
That's the one in this group photograph.
Yes in that one. And that's Mr Bagshaw.
Oh yes, dressed as a Chinaman.
He said, 'Come along with me' - see how tall he is. They dressed up, you see, in those days.
Did Mr Bagshaw own the place, or was he involved - - -?
No, he used to come and skate. He had his business, you see. I used to go past there when I was at school, later on, and I always used to think, 'Oh yes, I skated with him'. But this one, my mother had that made. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 31. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
That's your Little Bo Beep costume.
Yes, she bought that. She used to curl my hair around her finger after she washed it.
Did you win prizes for those costumes?
[queries question]
Did you win prizes?
Yes, a prize for each one. I got a gold brooch for that [Little Red Riding Hood] and I got a silver candle stick - a bag, and I threw it out later, it was only a small one. But you see, they were really adult things that I won. There were no children like that enough to have competition. But I could skate as good, if not better, than some adults. Because I loved it. I love it now. When I see them on the telly, I think, 'Oh, beautiful'. It's balance, you know - oh it's gorgeous. This was blue - a beautiful shade of blue. I don't know now whether I've still got that belt - and I've got the brooch on that I won. I've got it in there now but it broke in halves and I must get it mended. And a silver candlestick. And hanging here is a set of brushes.
Were you allowed to go alone with your sister?
Yes, Rita and I went together, after school.
At what time of day were the Carnivals held?
In the night.
Would you and your sister go alone to them?
No, Mum went, and Ruby, and they'd sit - - -. Well, very often they'd come on a Saturday afternoon and they'd sit and watch us. You're in a - like a little fence - and you walked in a little gate, and you sat on the chairs. Here was the round part there and this beautiful red plush material - a footwarmer, like they used to have in the old trains. Going to Melbourne my mother would always have her feet on them. (laughs) And Broken Hill, you know - night time it gets cold.
For the Carnivals and winning the prizes, were you judged on your skating or just on your costume?
No, the skating. Oh no, it was the skating.
What was the skating surface like in those days? Was it a smooth surface?
Like it is now. When they finished - in the afternoon they closed for a time and then it opened for the night time - they'd go along, I've watched them, ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 32. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
with a big, as wide as that [ten inches] a big shovel thing, and take all the top off.
So a man would do that.
Oh yes, the keeper. And around that part where all the mirrors were, that seat around there was all red plush - beautiful.
Was there a tower in the middle of the ice rink?
No, there's this big - - It kept the roof up really. Big posts, you know great big round - -
That was in the middle.
Yes in the middle of the rink.
Did that have mirrors?
It had mirrors about that wide all the way down like that you see, all the way around.
A woman who was a girl at about the same time as you - or she would have been a little older than you - remembered going skating, and she spoke of a man who would come out with a little brush and brush you down when you fell over.
Oh yes, that's right. (laughs)
Did he have a room in the mirrored post?
No, there's nothing there. It was just an absolute post. Then when it closed down - Rita and I skated on there until you couldn't skate. You know, all the ice was going down and down and down, and then we just looked at it. (laughs)
But after that I went to a picture show - it became a picture show. But that big thing was still there - the big post - and you had to make sure that you got a seat that you could see. Then of course they fixed the ceiling and the roof so that it wasn't necessary to have that to keep it up. But first of all, I remember walking in there with my mother and Ruby and Rita - and Ruby was only a tiny child - before it was an ice rink, and it was the Battle of Waterloo. It was right around - you walked around - and I remember seeing it all around, and full right down [the walls]. Whether it was only painted on the walls or what it was I wouldn't know because I wasn't old enough, but I just remember walking in and looking at all these sceneries of soliders.
So it was a sort of panorama. [In fact, the Adelaide Cyclorama] Yes. And then they turned it into the ice rink. We were so well known there, they used to say, 'Hello Mrs Adams'. (laughs) Oh, it was gorgeous. ATB/I4/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 33. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Did you have lessons with your skating?
That man just taught me, yes. But you didn't pay a fee or anything. He just said to my mother, 'What about the other girl doing it?' you see. I think it was only admittance going in and all that paid for it, and that's why it went broke I suppose.
[While I was skating Bricknell's bakery asked Mother if I could represent the company at one of the fancy dress carnivals. I can remember going to a cardboard box maker in Leigh Street to be fitted for the costume which was a three tiered cake. The costume was taken to the ice rink on the night of the carnival and I got into it there. Once I got into it I was in it for the night! I remember getting so tired that I started crying and I remember Mother saying to the photographer that she hoped the tears wouldn't show on the flashlight photograph he took of me. [See a copy of this photograph on file] Bricknell's shop was in King William Street and whenever we came to that part of town we had afternoon tea on their balcony. I remember seeing my cake costume displayed in a great big glass case inside the shop after the carnival. Later on Bricknell's joined with Balfours but then the Bricknell name disappeared. LS (as told to the interviewer at a later visit)]
We were talking about your father being Catholic. Did you attend church regularly?
Oh yes. Oh, you wouldn't dare miss Mass on Sunday. Then at Christmas time, when I was in the choir, I would go to early Mass so I would hear Mass properly, because when you're singing you're not in it so much - it's a bit different being out in the choir.
By the time you were a child, was your mother attending the Roman Catholic church?
No, she used to come with us to anything that was big, you know. Well, 1 made my first communion in the Nun's Chapel there, but for confirmation in the Cathedral, Mum come to that and all that. Dad didn't. Mum went to every- thing - belonged and everything - and when she was in Calvary - she was pretty sick at one time there - and she thought that she - - -. She said, if she was going to die, she would sooner - so she could be buried with Dad, see, in the West Terrace Cemetery, and so she turned a Catholic. But Dad said, 'You're more of a Catholic. You're a better Catholic than the Catholic mothers,' and so she was. I always remember, the first prayers I said, when I was so-high before I learned a prayer - and I always remember blessing myself and saying, 'God bless Daddy, God bless Mummy, and make me a good girl, ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 34. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Amen'. That was my nightly prayer. But we never said Grace at the table. My father said his own Grace and we said it quietly, because of Mum. I know Dad did that - I knew that later.
You mentioned before that there was a good deal of snobbery about.
[queries question]
Snobbery.
Oh yes. The State school children didn't be so amicable with a private school you see. Now, the Convent I went to there was an upstairs and a downstairs, and we went to the upstairs school which we paid more for than [those who] went to the downstairs. We never mixed, never, and at dinner time there was only one - two swings, one for big or small children - and no other things to do. They used to play games. But they had their - more there, at the down- stairs school, you know - there was a bigger playground for them because there were more children, and we were here. Now, for half the dinner hour we were allowed the swings and the other half the others were allowed, but we didn't be together.
One time I was going to do an exam and I went to have a rehearsal - you know, practice with the Sister - and I went around. I took my bike around to - the St Joseph's, I think it was called, the room - and when I came out, I got my bike and I had my violin and my bag - case, in there, and I carried the violin on the handle, and the —. Our going in and out was into Franklin Street and there was a private one for people coming into the Convent to visit the nuns or anything - because the nuns didn't go out, you see, Dominicans - but there was this other big exit and that was for the downstairs school. I got on my bike and rode out that one, and Mary - she was a deaf and dumb girl that lived with the nuns, but, oh God, she used to tell on you - and she saw me. The next morning Sister Mary Hyacinth called me out from the class and she said, 'I believe you rode your bike out the other gate'. I said, 'Yes Sister, that's right Sister. I was around there for practice'. She said, 'Well, don't ever do that again. That's not your school'. Snob.
Then it was all altered when the Archbishop came in. He altered it. Like Pope John altered all that sort of thing. It made no difference at all. The same way we can go into another church now, and there's nothing to do with it. I don't know why it ever started, but that's their business.
When you were growing up, did you think yourself and your family better than the poorer children? ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 35. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
No, we were always taught never - never. 'You're no better off than anybody else.' You know, it often amazes me, some of the mothers. Well, they're out working now - they're not there to tell their children this is right and that's wrong, so much, in the ordinary way of life. But we were never taught that we were better off than others.
Were you taught that at school though?
Yes. Yet, we did that, and yet we had separate toilets. A toilet for boys and a toilet for girls - only one for each school, and - - (laughs) There was a big room - the whole part was - and they used to use that later on for a demonstration for all our handicrafts - handworks, for all the parents to come and see what you've done all the year - but they had partitions that you could move between the classes. On the windowsill there was a piece of wood like that - a marker - and if you wanted to go to the toilet you put your hand up, and if the marker was gone there was somebody else there so you didn't go. You had to wait till that marker come back so you could go, because there's only one toilet, and you had to go down two flights of stairs with a wrought iron thing down the middle. One day I thought to myself, 'No one about,' and I got on it and skidded down on it - you know, sat on it and come down - and who should be at the bottom but a nun. She said, 'Lily, you go right up there and walk down properly like a lady,' so I had to go up all those stairs.
With the children who went to the downstairs school, did you notice that they were poorer than you in terms of their clothing or the way they spoke?
Yes, we noticed that - we noticed the difference in them and all that.
What sort of things?
Well, I mean, they weren't - they didn't live the same as us. They dressed different and ate differently. By that, I mean not their manner of eating - I mean their food wouldn't be the priced food, if you get what I mean.
Did you have any friends from the poorer children?
We never associated with them. You didn't have time to, you see. They went out at a certain time of the day and we went out through the certain time of the day. We didn't all go out at the same time.
In the streets around you in Adelaide, did you see much evidence of poverty?
Oh yes. We used to think, 'Well, they haven't got as much as us'. Not meaning that we were better or anything. I was always taught that if you had more money than somebody else, you were not better than them. It's how you behave. But now there's two girls go over here to the club - this is where it's ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 36. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
hard now - they said, 'Oh yes, we've been to the Dominicans up in Franklin Street too,' but they went downstairs, see. And yet they were on a par with me. I don't know why they had the two different things.
And the Cabra [Dominican Convent] girls, they all thought they were just streets ahead of us. But when they wanted anybody to play the seconds in the violin orchestra, or to sing seconds in their concerts, I had to go all the way down in the tram to rehearse and then go to the concert, and I had to be in it with them, just the same. But you see, they were boarders, all of them. Well, they had big cattle stations, way up, you know, and of course they were down boarding, and of course they were rolling in money.
So there was a real hierarchy in the schools.
There was, to a certain extent. Just on the quiet, but there was never any words about it or action about it at all. In your mind, you thought, 'She goes downstairs of course,' you know. (laughs)
These days people talk in terms of there being different classes in society. What would you say that your family belonged to when you were growing up?
Oh, middle class I think. The high class ones were the ones who held high positions - but why they held them I wouldn't know. But, I mean, the Mayor and the Councillors and all them, they were all the ones of the place. And a Member of Parliament. Well, we had a Member of Parliament, he was in the Cathedral choir, John Daly, and he married a girl that - we used to visit her parents and everything. They used to come to our place every first Sunday of the month and have tea with us, or dinner - I don't know which it was, tea.
One Member of Parliament who I wanted to ask you about was very well known in the West End, and that was Bert Edwards.
Oh yes.
What did you know of him when you were a child?
Just that he was Bert Edwards and did everything he wanted. (laughs) That's all I could say.
What did you mean by that? What was he involved in?
I mean, he seemed as though he - everything he did turned to gold, sort of. He was an energetic sort of person with his business part of life, you know. Yes, Bert Edwards. He did a lot of good - terrific lot of good - but, of course he was Labor, and my father was Liberal.
Was he? ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 37. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Oh yes. So you see, we didn't think too much about the others. (laughs)
Was your father interested in politics?
No. No, not deliberately interested, but he used to know who was where and all that - he knew them.
Did he become involved in the Liberal Party?
No, never came in - - -. My father never ever became involved in anything. No, he lived his life and he was really happy with all of us. Of course when we got older and we went to dances and things, Rita was home - you know, to be home with them and that. We weren't out every night but we used to go out always on a Saturday night, and another night or so in the week, to a dance. We come out here [Unley] to Pullman's and learned to dance. Did you?
Yes.
From about what age?
[queries question]
About how old were you?
Oh, I would be early twenties. Ruby came out first - Ruby and Lily, her girlfriend. They came out, you see, and - who is it, somebody said, 'Why doesn't your sister come?' and I said, 'Oh, I don't want to go out and learn to dance'. I knew how to waltz. Anyway I went out - I came out here, out in Arthur Street - and, my word, he used to - - -. He had the Palais after a while, he and his wife and the two daughters. He would come along and he'd pinch the fellow in the bottom, a bit like this, and he'd say, 'Not so tight, not so tight'. See, if you were in close to the girl or - - -. Yes, you had to dance so far apart. (laughs) And you all sat in numbers. You had numbers down, and he'd move them, and the Number Nine boy would have to come over here to Number Nine girl, or Number Ten girl, or whatever it was, you see. You couldn't have your own set.
Then they'd say, 'Your own choice,' and then all the boys would come across - of course the girls would never ask the boys to dance. My sister always had the blues dance with a certain boy, and one night he came and he picked me. I looked down at Ruby - I thought to myself, 'This is funny'. So anyway I had to get up, because he came and said, you see. Ruby got up with somebody else, but he might have decided he'd have a change or something, and she went mad at me for dancing with him. I said, 'But I couldn't help it,' ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 38. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
and do you know for eleven weeks she never spoke. Never spoke. We slept in the same room and everything - she was so boiling mad. And we'd go to the dance, and I was the mug - I used to go up and put things on the seat so we'd all sit in the one row. I used to go early to the Osborne Hall.
Which Hall?
Osborne Hall. It was owned by - I think it was Ellis the bakers, cake makers and everything, and you went upstairs to the hall. A lovely hall - beautiful floor to dance. Of course you don't need a floor now.
Did you do your own dressmaking?
No.
Where did you get your dresses made?
In a dressmaker - I don't know. We'd buy a dress- - Oh, in Moore's, when I was in there, there was a girl there used to do the toilet part. You know, people used to go in there and she was like a caretaker there. Well, we became friendly and I used to visit her, because her mother was a dressmaker. So she made my clothes then after that. But see, now, when I got married, she and her husband got - she married, and he was a Freemason, and of course they never went in a Catholic church in those days. She came to the wedding but he made an excuse, but I knew why he wouldn't come.
When you were growing up, did you have friends who weren't Catholics?
Who weren't? Yes. Religion never ever did, and I think it was the influence of the nuns. There's one God, and however you - that's what we were told - however you worship Him, that's the way you'll be judged. Not as what you are. It doesn't matter. Now, like, all these ones that worship idols, well they believe in it and they live to the Commandments. There's the Ten Corn mand- ments - I can tell you them backwards - and it doesn't matter. If they live according to the Law of God, they're equal. So that's the last thing I think of anybody when I meet them - the last thing I ever think. Unless the subject comes up, I never know - I would never know.
Another thing I wanted to ask you about - you've mentioned your parents talking about prostitution in the area. Did you see much evidence of crime or violent behaviour when you were growing up?
No. No, I have seen fights outside pubs and that sort of thing. But I would go - when I was a teenager - at the Wondergraph pictures down there in Hindley Street, and I would go there because I was following a serial. I love movies - I did love. I would go there because Ruby didn't like pictures at all and Rita ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 39. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
didn't be bothered, and so I used to go on my own and I used to walk from Morphett Street, round via Light Square, up Currie Street, down Leigh Street, into Hindley Street, to the Wondergraph. And at eleven o'clock it'd be finished and I'd walk home. My God, I wouldn't do it in daylight now. I wouldn't go past Light Square. (laughs) No, I don't mean that, but I mean I wouldn't do it in the night.
Were you ever troubled?
Never ever. I never ever bothered to meet anybody. If you met anybody at that time of the night they'd walk past and you'd walk past, you know. They didn't take any notice.
END OF TAPE 2 SIDE B: TAPE 3 SIDE A
We've talked a little bit about your schooling. What ages did you attend school? [queries question]
How old were you when you started school?
Seven.
How long did you go?
I think I was about - I must have been nearly seventeen.
So you went on to the secondary schooling?
No, it's all the same. There was no primary and secondary in those days. You just went on from one class to another till you go up to - - -. Junior, Senior and - I can't think what the other is. I know when I did Primary, I had to go down to the Uni and sit and do the thing there, because being Adams! was up in the corner - my seat in the - - -. It's now, oh, a beautiful place. I've been in there to a concert.
Oh, was it the Bonython Hall?
Could be the Bonython.
What level did you get to at school?
To Primary, Senior - past the Senior part, and all that.
What was your parents' attitude to you being at school? Did they want you to get a certain sort of education?
No. They just went along with what life was - whatever way we were doing.
Had your older sister stayed as long at school? ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 40. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Yes, I think she must have, because, see, she was seven when I was born. So you see, she would be almost ready - - -. She'd be not quite seven because she would have to be going to school at seven, so she's not - no, she's not, she was six. Because, when they found my Birth Certificate - I've got it in there.
What was the discipline like at school?
When they told you not to do a thing, then you didn't do it, that was the point.
Was there any corporal punishment?
No, we didn't have any. Only I did see a boy, in our class, before - - -. You see, the boys - it's hard for nuns to educate boys in those days, especially when they [the nuns] didn't go out. This boy - I don't know what he did wrong. He might have talked too long or did work wrong - something like that - but he must have answered back something, and he had to hold his hand out and have the ruler - bang. That's the only time I've ever know. But there was no - - -. You were reprimanded by word. But when we did fancy work, needle- work they call it now, and plain sewing - we had an hour of each, two different days. We'd come out of our desks - two in a desk - and we'd sit on a form and do our fancy work, and one of us had to read a book on manners and etiquette. And we had to write that down later. We had to answer the questions later.
What did you think, looking back, on the education that you got? Did you think it was of a good standard?
Oh yes. Well it did me good, you see, because I just went on into Moore's and I got the head job in that certain part.
Did you do commercial studies at school?
No. No, not at all. Only that they sent me to - oh, it was just round the corner in Pine Street, a place that had these [comptometer] machines for me. And they questioned me and they said it was all right.
Was that Peacock's?
Yes. Anyway, when I came back, they said —. The others in the office - see there was the two offices. There was one office that did all the docket work and everything - the other was accounts. In the middle was the Accountant's office. It was glass - you could see through - and a door each way. A door there from ours, and a door from the passageway when you come up the stairs. We were doing a certain lot, but some of them in the other office didn't think we were as good as them, but we had better knowledge because we had our machines and that. But when I was sent down - I can't think of the ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 41. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Accountant's name then, he sent me down - and I said I was interested, you see, and that was all right. Of course they were buying the machine and they'd teach somebody. They had one that was an old one and they were buying another one.
This is the comptometer?
Yes. And some of them - and it must have been Muriel Cleveland - she must've gone in and said, 'Why is Lily Adams doing it and Mabel Hooker has been here longer and she's doing the same kind of work?' But she wasn't doing the same kind of work because she didn't have to work on the comptometer at that time, because she was doing the entries part - the accounts. Reckoning all the accounts up - that part there. I was balancing the cashiers, you see, but they said, 'She's been here longer,' and everything, so of course I was told I wasn't going any more, that Mabel was going.
So Mabel goes down there and she learns all this business, you see, and then later on I went down and had a couple of lessons at it and I took it all right. I wasn't the head girl there then - I can't think of the head girl, head woman. I know she married and I took her job. Anyhow, when I'd [been to Peacock's] to do that, they straight away said I was to take that job, not Mabel, because Mabel wouldn't know a bull's foot about that, you see, doing only this other part. She was facing that way, you see, and we sat opposite each other. So I got the job to do there. I got two pound ten a week - that was big money, two pound ten.
Let's talk about your working life. First of all, at the time that you left school, had you gone as far as you wanted to go in school?
Yes.
Do you remember whose decision it was for you to leave?
Oh just - at the end of the year, that was the end of my being there, because I was far enough - - -. You know, I couldn't go much further there before going on to University, which I did not want to do. It was suggested and I said, 'I'm not capable of - I don't want to. I don't want to go to the University'. Because to go to University - it was down North Terrace - I thought to myself, 'They're too snobby'. I didn't want to go and mix with them. You know, they'd be too brainy for me, probably, and they might notive been, but still.
You've mentioned how your father didn't think that girls needed to work.
No, mustn't go to work. Of course, Rita was needed home because Mum wasn't a strong woman. She had haemorrhoids and she used to bleed - oh, ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 42. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
badly, badly. I remember when we were down Rundle Street one time - one night shopping time - and Ruby and Rita would be walking ahead of Mum and I. And Mum suddenly went up this little lane there, and then she just fixed her clothes and that, and there was all blood - she was bleeding you see. She was in Wakefield Street Hospital and had the operation. So Rita just automatically stayed home, and that was right, you see.
But it was I who worked out in my little brain box that - 'Whatever are we going to do when Ruby leaves school next year?' because I couldn't find too much to do myself. I'd do all the dusting, hang out the clothes for Mum, and then I said, iron the hankies Mum'. I'd iron the hankies, standing on a hassock like that there.
My mother-in-law gave me that when we got married so that I could sit and put my feet up. I think she thought because I was an office girl, I was not family-like. But when she came and had dinner - roast dinner and food and everything - she nearly keeled over. It was my cooking. But I only learned from my mother, watching her. I'd say, 'Mum, can I cut - —? What about me doing the mint?' and she'd let me do the mint sauce and all that sort of thing. I did all the extra bits, but I liked doing those things.
How long were you at home after you left school, before you started working?
Oh not very long. It wouldn't be a year. But I couldn't for the life of me see how we were going to live, day by day, with so little to do. Of course I used to read a lot, but you couldn't sit down and read a book all day. So anyway, that's how it is that I got a job. When Charles Moore's was burning, Len said to me - that's my late darling [husband] - he said, 'We'll go in and see'. It came over the air - not telly in those days - over the air, that Moore's was on fire. So we went over to Victoria Square, we parked the car, and Peter, my son - I forget how old he was - he cried. I said, 'What are you crying for, dear?' He said, 'It was where you worked Mummy'. (laughs) If I told him that now he'd - - Because he teaches boys that are young men.
So can you tell me when you first started at Moore's what your work involved?
In a cash desk giving change. They'd come along and give you the docket and then the money, and you'd just hand the change out to them.
So you'd be dealing with the sales people?
Yes, the shop assistants.
They'd bring along the docket. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 43. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Yes. Then when I got up into the - I was down in the tubes for a while. You know, they come down in a tube and you put the change in to go back.
When you started on the cash desk, was that on the floor with the shop?
It was on the ground floor like this is. But the office was up a flight, and then a flight, and then there was the next floor up. See it was between the two.
Like a mezzanine.
Terrific height between, you see, and all that space that you look down. I found a little snap there I took from the office, looking down at all the things.
So where you ended up working, in the office, would be what I think they call a mezzanine floor, or something like that. Was it around the outside?
No. Now do you mean, the office?
Yes. Did the office have a complete floor all the way across the building?
Yes, but right through one side. And there was another one, to do with the transport part of it - the delivery and that - the office was next door to that. But on the ground floor, beneath where I was, was the switchboad with all the numbers and that, and laybys and those sorts of things, and next door was the Accountant and the next door was the Manager.
So there was a sort of bank of office on one side of the building.
Just in the middle, yes, only along that side. The far end, alongside where - there was a big room where there was, I think it was, four toilets and basins and everything, and customers could go up those little stairs and go in there. But we had to - there was a space, and then we had to go up the next lot to our place.
So how long did you work on the cash desk?
Oh, not very long at all, because you see they extended the - what's its name?
Oh, the pipe?
Where we went down in the tubes. Yes, they extended that a bit and they didn't bother with the little cash desk. I only was there a very, very short time, and Friday nights was the time that they used to engage somebody in there for quickness.
Where did the tube operators work?
Down in the basement alongside it. Big thing with the tubes both sides.
So you'd be taking the dockets and the money out of the tube - out of the capsules. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 44. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Yes, and put the change in and put the money and the top docket into the thing and pull the - just stand it in, and pull a lever, and up it would go. But you didn't see it go because it was in a tube.
How long did you work at that job?
Not very long there, because they had the vacancy up in the office and they said for me to go up there, and that's where I stopped and finished up.
How long after you'd first begun at Moore's was it before you went to the office? Was it months or a year?
How do you mean?
Was it a month or three months after you started working at Moore's until they moved you to the office?
Oh yes, it'd be months I suppose. Oh, six months or so I suppose. It would be twelve months.
How did you like work?
Oh, loved it.
When you first started?
Yes. I love figures so much I keep a day book. I've done my day book up today (laughs) and balanced the money.
So what did your work consist of when you started in the office?
Sorting the [sales] dockets. You sorted them first into departments, but you didn't - All you knew was that certain initials were [different depart- ments] and [as a junior LS] you put them on a [peg board], and then you took them off and criss-crossed them [in department lots LS] and passed them to the one [in the position] that I did later, and she did the dissecting of it [whether it was wool, lining, cotton etc. LS]. Then she passed them across to another junior [who put them into pigeonholes LS] according to the number of the assistant the one who did the serving. If you were Number Ten, well you'd put it in there, and all that. Then Alice Wood was sitting here, and they were passed over to her to make sure she had the books. They had a different book cover for their dockets every day, and they alternate days, you see. Alice would check off those dockets with the side of the book - make sure they were all done right and that.
But when they were passed on to me, I had to look at —. I had to know what was in every department. Like, cotton was H, I-IL was lining, wool was G, and silk - I can't think what silk was now, at the moment, offhand. But if ATB/I4/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 45. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
they wrote on the docket, '1 yard' - in those days - 'of lining', and they put it to H, 1 had to send the junior down to find out which it was, whether it was the lining or the cotton material - to get it right. They often used to put the wrong initial to it. So that's what we had to know, all those parts.
Then when you were moved on to the comptometer, what did your work involve then?
Well that was it. See, then when they'd bring the stock sheets - when they took stock - we had to work night work to do them. It was then we had to decimalise, because they'd put down, '65 yards of so-and-so' - you know, of the material - and we had to extend it, 'at so-much'. Say it was five and six, you know, five shillings and sixpence - I've got so used to the others, the decimals - the pence side had to be decimalised, you see, so you had to know the decimal of that in order to work it on your machine. See, it was all right to work your number at sixty, but not when it's a five - the five pence you had to do it. That's the way we had to do it. But that was only the stock sheets.
So on the comp otherwise, you were adding up all the cashiers' dockets were you?
Yes, balance them. Their money had to balance with the dockets.
Did that section of the office that you were working in, and that you became head of, have a name?
No. No, it was all just the office, the whole lot. But they used to all go out to have a cup of tea - down the end. The junior from that other part used to go and get - up to the cafe up top, the dining room, or whatever it was, up on the top of the place - and you come down with the hot water and tea, and they order. But I never wanted a cup of tea in between meals - I never do now. So I never bothered to go out but they used to go out and stand around and munch a bun or something. I think they were allowed about ten minutes but they were more than that, but nobody took any notice. As long as we got our work done, why worry?
Were there only women working in your section?
Yes, only women.
What about in the office as a whole? Where there men working in the office? Only the Accountants - like, up the top. No, I don't remember a man. Oh, there was one man came in for a while there, because he married the girl that I took her job.
We're concentrating on the period up until 1930. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 46. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
That's right.
What stage would you have reached by then? Were you in charge of that section?
The same section, yes, until I left.
What was your pay like when you started?
I think I got ten bob - ten shillings. I got a note - a ten shilling note. Then later on 1 got a bit more, and I finished up, I had two pound ten a week in charge of the office. You wouldn't do that now. Of course things were so cheap - much cheaper.
Of that money, were you expected to give any to your parents?
No, my mother didn't take any notice. So I said to her, when I got it - I forget how much I gave her - and Mum said, 'No, we don't do that'. I said, 'Look, Mum,' I said, 'Rita and Ruby do all the housework. I do nothing now in the house, so I'm going to pay my board'. So I paid her - I couldn't tell you how much I gave her out of it, but I know - - -. Then I lived on the rest of it.
Were you then expected to keep yourself in clothing and the like?
Yes. And if I saw a dress - we went shopping together those days - and if it was more, my mother just said, 'Well we'll have that'.
Did Rita or Ruby begin working themselves during the 1920s?
No never. The Accountant said to me, 'You've got your sister. Would she be able to come in and work?' Now, Ruby had never done work in her life, and he said, 'Would she come in and relieve on the switchboard?' - of all things! He was a dumb cluck in one way. I said, 'Oh, I'll see,' and she said, 'Oh, I think I could do it,' and she went. But it was too hard for her. She said, 'It's no good,' to me. So Campbell Smith come up once and he said, 'Who's that girl on the switchboard? She doesn't know much about it'. So I went into the office and I said, 'Excuse me, I overheard that'. I said, 'It happens to be my sister,' I said, 'and she hasn't got to work at all and,' I said, 'she only came in to oblige,' but! said I would now tell her that she needn't bother to do it. And Campbell Smith just looked at me - I didn't like him much.
Did he manage the building?
No, Mr Gibson was - J.H. Gibson, and he had a big furniture place down in Hindley Street later. He left and went into a business on his own, and Campbell Smith became the Manager and then young Charlie Moore - - -. Charlie Moore went overseas and then Ken Moore took over in the meantime and that, and Ken Moore was in charge when I left. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 47. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Did you, in your position, have much to do with the management side of it?
[queries question]
In your day to day work, did you have much contact with the Manager?
No, not at all. I always remember when Campbell Smith came back, we gave him an evening. They said, 'Bring your violin and give an item,' and I said, 'Oh no'. They said, 'Yes we want you to'. So I brought it and I did the item, but then they started, you know to dance. But I didn't play for dancing. I was in the kitchen helping to get the supper ready, you see, and they were all going to dance, and in comes Ken Moore and he said, 'Miss Adams, where is she?' and I said, 'Here, has something gone wrong?' you know. He said, 'No,' and he said, 'This is our dance,' and I went out, and I was the first one he danced with. They said, 'Ohhh'. They thought I was on with him I think. (laughs)
Then when we were coming home - coming back from it - there was a man from World War One and he had his arm off, and he was the lift man. This arm [left] it was, and he overloaded the lift. I've got my violin and I've got it like this [clutched in front of me], and Pm standing in there, and the lift went down, but it wouldn't stop. It went on down and it wouldn't stop at the floor. So they brought it up and it went up past. Then he brought it down. He over- loaded it, you see, so much. The doors were open, so they pulled each one out. It was my turn - they pulled me out with the violin like this. Then when it got to the level, it stopped. That's why I hate lifts. I never forget it.
Was there any sort of trade union for you when you were working at Moore's?
Yes, there was one thing. I wasn't getting the right money, and I went to find out about it, and I joined this thing. And of course it wasn't done in those days, you see, and I just went back and told them, I said, 'Keep everything. Cut me out,' you know. It wasn't called a union, it was just a - - I don't know what it was to tell you the truth.
Some sort of an association?
Yes.
What do you mean, you said to them to keep everything?
Oh, I didn't want to be a member of it, you see, because nobody else was a member of it and they might - like they do now - they don't like working with somebody that belongs somewhere else.
Did they help you get the money you needed, though? ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 48. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
No, they didn't do anything at all. Anyway it didn't make any difference - I got it. See, once you got twenty one, you stopped at that amount of money - it didn't matter what position you had.
Were you dissatisfied with that?
Oh, I was satisfied with anything - it was the occupation to me. (laughs) I didn't have to live on it. It didn't make any difference.
When you say you weren't getting enough, was that when you turned twenty one or later on?
Yes, I didn't get the rise. See, when you became twenty one you got a certain amount - whatever it was, you see. It must've been the two pound ten or something, or the two pounds or something.
Did you find out why you didn't get it?
No.
But you got it in the end.
Yes.
END OF TAPE 3 SIDE A: TAPE 3 SIDE B
I wanted to ask you a little bit more about your working days. As the twenties went on, you were then getting into your own late twenties. Were you planning to work for an extended period of time, or did you have other plans?
No, I had no plans whatsoever. I just went on day by day.
You've spoken before about having a boyfriend. Were you planning to get married?
No, we just enjoyed - - I met him to oblige my sister's girlfriend, because she was going with a boy and they were going to a picnic up at Belair, up at the National Park - I don't know what club it was or anything. I had nothing to do with Lilly - Ruby was her friend, but I never had anything to do with those two. I mean I kept myself out - I knew I was older than them up here [in the head]. You know, I had more experience, being at work and all that, you see. Suddenly she was crying. She said, would I go to the picnic with a boy, because the boyfriend she was going with said that if she didn't get a girl to go with this boy to the picnic, he wouldn't go out with her.
It was Easter Sunday. I said to my mother, 'What will I do?' I said, 'Easter Sunday, Mum. I'm always here home for Easter Sunday?' She said, 'Oh, you can go'. So we had to meet at the corner of Morphett and Grote Street, because she lived up in the street up further. I said, 'All right, I'll go'. So she and I, we arranged — -. We had to take - we bought a chicken and we had to take the ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 49. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
lunch, you see, and that. We played tennis and all sorts. Then they said, 'Oh, we'll have a walk'. I thought he was nice - he was all right.
Then they had another party down at Port Noarlunga, and we went for a walk, he and I, way around the edge part there, when you come to - the river comes out on to the beach, you know - and then back. Oh, it was beautiful. Anyhow, when we came back, they were all having a smooch in different couples, which I abhorred, so we - - -. We never tried anything like that, see, and when we came home - - -. He was then working on the railway - putting the railway lines and that down up by Wallaroo, somewhere up there - and he was supposed to have his apprenticeship then, and when it finished he was supposed to be brought down into an office here, by Victoria Square there. The man that was his boss liked him so much that he wouldn't let him go, so he left it.
So anyhow, that's beside the point, but he asked me would I go to the pictures with him, you see, to West pictures, with his father and mother and him. He used to come down from this position every weekend, you see, and they had permanent bookings at West's. I said, 'All right, go to the pictures with you,' and we went, but we didn't sit with them. He altered the seating part, you see. They were there, I suppose, and saw him - because he was an only child. Anyhow, we started, and just went out when he was down from the position, and we just went on and on and on, like brother and sister, you know. We used to have a day out, and it was was then I bought my little car - 1927.
So you went out together for a good many years before you finally married? Yes.
And that was in 1927.
He wanted me to verbally say yes we would marry, so that we could let my mother know before she died. Mum and Dad liked him very much. Anyhow, we became engaged, unofficially, so that if Mum asked anything and that. When Dad's will was read and we got our big money and that, Mum said, 'That'll be a help for you to get your glory box' - they used to call it - 'ready'. And I just, you know, didn't take any notice of it. I said, 'Oh, we will marry eventually'. But, see, Mum died the next week - no, a fortnight after Dad. She was buried exactly the same day, a fortnight later.
Was there any pressure on you from your parents or friends to get married earlier?
Never, no. There was never any pressure of any description in our family for anything, other than if they thought it was something you did that wasn't the ATI3/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 50. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
correct thing to do. You know, there's a correct way to do everything. They'd just simply say, 'That's not the right thing to do'.
Could you tell me a little bit about the deaths of your parents? That was about 1929 - 1930, was it?
[refers to papers]
You've mentioned that your mother had cancer of the throat.
Yes. Well she had that big operation then, but she died with the cancer and they fed her through the stomach, straight in, and we had the two sisters to do it. She was in Calvary [Hospital] when the operation was done, and when she came home we had to - —. Ruby was to do that, but she wasn't the type to do it that much. I don't know how it came about, but we got a nurse to come. I think the doctor did it, you know - got a nurse to come and put it in. Ruby was quite pleased about that - she was frightened. But it was a marvellous thing. You see, if Mum got a headache, they'd put an aspirin - Aspro, I think they called it in those days - mashed it up and put it in a liquid and put it down in the tube and it went straight in there and she lost her headache. So that proves that you've got to wait till they get down in there before your headache goes, which is right.
What the circumstances of your father's death?
Oh, it's sad. [4 minutes 41 seconds deleted from the tape recording] He died in Calvary [Hospital].
Were you ever told what sort of illness your father had?
No, we never knew. He was eighty four and back in those days, that was ancient. Anyhow, what he did, was - they brought him home, Siebert's [Frank J. Siebert, undertaker], to our place. [break in recording]
Dad was in our drawing room and it was what they called - it's Labour Day now, but it was Eight Hours Day, on the Wednesday. The fourteenth of October. And they said, 'You can't have your father have a - - -'. He didn't die on the fourteenth, but that would be the day, by rights, he'd be buried. So he was there that night - the Tuesday night - home in his coffin, and we stopped up all night. We took it in turns. They said, 'It's Race Day, there's races' - the Adelaide Cup - and the people who would want to come to the funeral, they'd be going to the races, because they're involved in it you see. Because Dad knew all the owners and trainers and everybody like that. So anyway, they made it the next day - the Thursday - which was my birthday. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 51. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
So anyway, Mum got the nurse to let her out of bed and walk in and see Dad. And I think she really only - - -. She just gave up after that, because I think she made herself want to live because - to look after Dad, you know, to be here. She didn't want him not there.
Had your father continued working up until his death?
Yes. Yes, he was still going over to the stables - round to the stables.
What happened to the household when your parents died?
Well, Rita was married of course, and living in the - - -. Ruby and I stopped there - I can't think how long we stopped. It wasn't a year or anything like that. But we stopped there, and my husband now, was - Len - he looked for somewhere for us to live. We said we would go somewhere. He found this flat - upstairs flat in Moseley Street, Glenelg - so we moved down there, down to Glenelg. We were there a couple of years, and then it got really unbearable because I never knew what mood Ruby would be in when I came home.
You see, the tram to Glenelg used to come and come round through Victoria Square and around by Moore's. I used to come out and get the tram home, you know, it was easy. Anyhow, that didn't matter. Anyhow, I thought to myself, 'Oh, this is dreadful' and when I'd get home - you see, the shop didn't close till six o'clock, and by the time I got the tram home - - I had to do my own tea, and I paid the rent out of my wages and the money Dad left us - I paid the rent and I paid her my board, but I never got anything out of it. Weekends I got a meal, but she'd be off dressed and ready to get a tram up to town to go to a dance.
You've mentioned how you felt a good deal older than your sister in terms of experience and so on. When you were working during the 1920s, did you think that working changed you?
It broadened my ideas because I met more people and different kinds of people. You know, it makes a difference then. I was really an outsider with the other two [sisters] because I was different to them.
Do you think other people saw working girls as something different? You've men- tioned your mother-in-law thinking that you wouldn't settle into the home.
Oh yes. You see, my mother-in-law was so possessive to my husband. So when I found I was going to have one child, because I had the hysterectomy, I said to Len, I said, 'Peter's got to do whatever he wants to do'. I said, 'I'm not going to be the ruler like your mother was to me'. I said, 'It was dreaduP, and it was dreadful. If it was a girl it would be a different matter, but a boy is different. You can guide them and if they do wrong, say, 'Well, you don't do it that way,' if you've got the right atmosphere in the home. ATB/14/129-612 Mrs Lily SHALLESS 52. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8612
Well I think we've covered a lot of ground today, and I thoroughly enjoyed talking with you. We've had a look at most of the photographs as we've gone along. Another one that you've lent me is you with the comp machine, sitting in the office. You thought that was during the 1920s sometime.
Yes.
Do you recognise your age at all from your haircut?
No.
When did you have your hair cut short?
Oh, when we lived down at Glenelg. My father was dreadful when Ruby had her's cut, but Ruby's hair was frizzy curly, and when you'd comb it, it'd come out, but be little white ends come on the end of it - it would almost bleed, the hair.
So did you wear your hair in a bun?
A bun at the back. It's in the photo.
Well, thank you very much indeed for sharing all of your memories with me. I hope you've enjoyed it. I certainly have.
Yes I have.