thEpisode 5 Phil .mp3

Rebecca Scholtens [00:00:00] In this episode of Sound Waves, we talked to Phillip Long, chief executive officer of the National Trust for , about the work that is being done to balance conservation and preservation of coastal and ocean spaces while also promoting public access and engagement.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:00:52] Hello, everyone, and welcome to Sound Waves, the podcast for the By the Seaside Exhibition. We are so excited today for the guest that we have: Mr. Phil Long of the National Trust for Scotland. Phil, would you mind to introduce yourself?

Philip Long [00:01:09] It's very nice to be taking part. So I'm chief executive of the National Trust for Scotland. I've only been doing that for a fairly short time, just about 10 months. And National Trust for Scotland is Scotland's leading conservation body. We care for seventy six thousand hectares of land, which includes almost 50 minerals, many islands off the West Coast. Over one hundred visited heritage properties and much more besides. And so it's an amazing organisation to be part of and to be responsible for. And before that, I was the founding director of the V&A Dundee New Design Museum, which opened in 2018 and it was my responsibility to to develop that museum from scratch and to get it open and then to run it. And then prior to that, I was senior curator of the National Galleries of Scotland for many years, working on exhibitions and writing publications on many Scottish and international artists.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:02:08] So you've been you've been around a bit. You've seen things, you know things.

Philip Long [00:02:13] I've made all the classic, I've made all the mistakes.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:02:16] But that's what you learn from.

Philip Long [00:02:18] Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:02:19] Well, we are so happy to have you on our podcast with us today. We're hoping to be able to ask some questions about conservation, about access, and mostly about how people in Scotland can use the National Trust Scotland for wellbeing and to improve their mental and physical health.

Madison Kuras [00:02:38] Just a little bit of background info for Rebecca and I, both students at the University of St Andrews in the Museum and Gallery studies cohort. We were very, very lucky to be able to sit in on a conversation with Phil a couple of weeks ago, which was fantastic. There were a number of fantastic questions asked, not only from the By the Seaside cohort, but also from the class itself. So a lot of these questions that you were going to be hearing today come from not only Rebecca and I, but also from the By the Seaside cohort and of the Museum and Gallery Studies class on the whole, which is super exciting.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:03:14] We're going to start with a bit of a heavy hitter. We'd love to discuss the conservation work undertaken by the Trust and look into its mission to preserve these natural environments while also allowing people to engage with this part of their cultural identity.

Philip Long [00:03:28] It's a great question to to to discuss. I think it's worth saying a little bit about the trust in its formation. It came about in 1931 in response to a strong desire from a small group of group of people in Scotland that we did in another organisation, perhaps comparable to this to the establishment of the National Trust in England, Wales and Wales and Northern Ireland, which was put into place in the late 19th century, which would take responsibility for the care of our extraordinary heritage. And that heritage covers many areas. There isn't a definition of it that we follow. The heritage in our care encompasses everything from houses and castles through to wild landscape, designed landscapes such such as gardens and through to domestic and industrial properties, if you like. So, for example, the trust has both Tenement House in Glasgow and also has a historical printing works, Smails Printers in Innerleithen in the Scottish borders. So our responsibility to care for our state covers a very diverse range of property. And over 90 years now, because this year is the Trust's 90th anniversary, we've built up an estate portfolio, if you like, of heritage that we have a sort of dual responsibility for. And we're a charity and our charitable cause is to conserve the heritage that is in our responsibility. But it's also about making it accessible to people as much as is possible. And there in itself lies an interesting question about balance of conservation requirement as well as accessibility

Rebecca Scholtens [00:05:16] Jumping off from that then, how does the National Trust for Scotland strike the balance between protecting natural heritage and encouraging people to enjoy it? How can natural heritage, like coastlines and other blue spaces be enjoyed without causing further damage?

Philip Long [00:05:31] Well, your question is a great one, and it's at the heart of the Trust, because the Trust has the responsibility to do both of these of these things. And that's vested in its foundation. Take, for example, Ben on , which is one of the Scottish Munroes, so a mountain over three thousand feet. Ben Lawers is quite a Lowland mountain, by comparison with many of the more northerly ones and it has particularly an extraordinary biodiversity, particularly of alpine plants, so its natural landscape is very precious in itself. What's precious is what grows on Ben Lawers. So our responsibility is to care for that. But it is also about encouraging people to understand and explore these wild places. And so we need to do that in a way where we encourage people to enjoy, be inspired by, and I think particularly in the last year, find solace from these outdoor places which have become even more precious to everybody. To do it in such a way that it doesn't damage the natural environment and the biodiversity that makes these places particularly important. Within the trust, our strong view that the best way of doing this is to help people to understand that these places are very special and the conservation requirements are complex. They're multifold. So the care of that natural environment is something that we will address with people who might come to walk on Ben Lawers. And the best way I think of helping people to themselves take responsibility for the natural environment is to help people understand why that environment is so important. Of course, the prospect of walking up Ben Lawers on a path which is somehow or other fenced and that's the only part you can go, is unfeasible. That just wouldn't work and nobody would want that. And so we provide good paths on mountains, but one of the things that we've seen particularly that's been very difficult in the last year, is the number of people that have been going out to Scotland's wild places for whatever reason, whether it's because it is what we can do, but it is also because of what we've seen, the increased importance of the natural environment to people, and that causes a build-up of people on our mountain paths. And they're concerned about being in too close proximity to other people because of the risk of infection. And so walkers can walk off paths and unwittingly cause damage to that natural environment. So that's an example that's at the heart of that striking the balance. The best thing I think that we can do is to help people understand why it's so important that people take care in these places. That's the best way of caring for them for the future.

Madison Kuras [00:08:21] That is actually such a good point. And that really is helpful because we have a question that specifically looks at the past in the past year and a half. So one of the questions we had was what have been the most important lessons that have been learnt during COVID when it comes to the National Trust for Scotland and its cultural impact?

Philip Long [00:08:41] Well, there's so many lessons to be learnt in a situation like the last year, because the National Trust for Scotland is a charity that depends on support from people coming to its places. And if the requirements are that we can no longer make our places available, then that means that people can't come. And there is a risk that that support doesn't therefore come. And people may not be so inclined to be a member, for example. And membership subscriptions are very important in enabling our conservation work. And so what we've seen this year, as have many organisations, that our whole business model has been under threat as a consequence of the pandemic. And if you remove funding from the trust, then you remove our ability to take care of the places that are part of Scotland's national definition, if you like. But turning to the point in the in the landscape and in the natural environment, I think that what we've learnt were some things that we're aware of before, but they've now become very, very clear to us. And that in particular is that the natural environment, outdoor spaces, whether it's the coast or the wild landscapes or whether it's gardens, are places that have become incredibly important to people because of what they offer, they offer beautiful environments in which people can feel inspired by. They offer places where people can go to with others safely because of the scale, because of the distance. And I also think that all the landscape always changes and people themselves are the greatest cause of change in landscape, they do offer, in comparison with many other sorts of environments, a degree of permanence and stability. And I think that that's a quality that has also been very important for people in the last year, as we have seen the world that we all live in turned upside down. And then the final point I want to make about what we've learnt is how important places that the Trust are responsible for, are important to communities across the country. The trust is at the heart of particularly many rural communities, quite isolated communities. And so they have a very important part in not least contributing to tackle employment in those places or being a place for all of these places, and I think that all of these things will be important themes for us

Madison Kuras [00:11:02] Absolutely.

Philip Long [00:11:03] In the future.

Madison Kuras [00:11:04] Absolutely.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:11:06] Coming off that, I know that one of the ways that museums and cultural institutions have tried to kind of bridge the gap between not having visitors come in and still trying to engage visitors over the last year and extending even before that to with increased digital presence, has the NTS offered or looked into virtual engagement for blue spaces or even just larger estates and sites, especially now that people are not able to travel to these areas?

Philip Long [00:11:35] We have looked very much into digital engagement and I think we really only just touched the surface of that, actually. So to give you some examples, one of the things that we found that people particularly value was sort of insight talks from our experts in the trust to find out about places. So although it might seem the most obvious thing to do to provide it sort of virtual experiences of going to places, that's perhaps something that we've done less of and perhaps something we should look at in the in the future. But what we found is that people particularly have valued these sorts of insights into Trust places or finding out about conservation or understanding more about that, about what the Trust's approach, for example, to gardening, which has become a very important thing in many people's lives over the last year. And although in this, of course, we're talking substantially about the natural environment, the outdoors, the Trust is responsible for many different sorts of heritage. One of the things that the Trust organised, which I think was was very successful, was a Robert Burns Night online where people could join and take part in a really quite a non-traditional sort of burns nights that involved recitation, yes, but also performed the performances from particularly from some of Scotland's most creative younger talents, reinterpreting Burns and demonstrated a way, I think, that a poet and a cultural figure such as that from the 18th Century is still somebody that's got great validity, particularly to young people today. So we're excited about these sorts of digital possibilities for the future and we'll certainly want to do more of that.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:13:23] That sounds very exciting. I can say that a Burns Night was not a thing I knew about before I came here

Philip Long [00:13:31] The digital ones have been the thing to do this year. But if you ever have a chance, then go to a real one. It's quite a night.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:13:37] I hope so. We're going to move on to something a little bit more personal. Do you have any blue spaces within the Trust or outside of the Trust that you have as a favourite? And where is it and why? If you if you want to share where it is, unless you want to keep it a secret, then by all means, speak in very general terms.

Philip Long [00:13:56] Well, so many really I think it's difficult. I mean, I'm lucky to live by the sea. And in fact, I live in St Andrews, so I'm often down in the West Sands. And I think that's a very special a very special place. You know, I go down there to think and it's often where I sort of think about difficult things and try to solve problems. And so I think I think living in an environment by blue spaces, by the sea particularly is something that's become very important to me. But another one I would give as an example, I was, in my job I'm fortunate to be able to go and see and be involved in and work at amazing places across the whole of Scotland. And just off a week or so ago, I was up in Torridon in Wester Ross. Before I left, I was able to have a walk around Loch Coulin, which is in Wester Ross and Wester Ross and that area, is in the main known for its extraordinary munroes, which have wonderful names like and Ben Alligin. And in between these mountains, there are the most wonderful lochs and lochans and Loch Coulin is walk I did last weekend, which was very, very special and special indeed.

Madison Kuras [00:15:05] That's fantastic. I'm very envious, but I'm also very aware of the fact that I'm asking you to name your favourite of these spaces isn't the most diplomatic question. But I'm glad to hear that one of them is within the grounds of St. Andrews, because I know Rebecca and I, within the past year when we have been here, West Sands, East Sands, the blue spaces and the green spaces of St Andrews, have been such a joy to all of us and they've really, really helped move through, lock down and quarantine and it's just been beautiful. So we're very, very lucky. We were talking about audiences and different demographics. One of the questions that we had was who is the National Trust for Scotland's main audience. Since we are the learning and engagement leads of By the Seaside, one of the things that we have been focussed on is trying to expand our own audience. So has the National Trust for Scotland really tried to expand their original audience, especially in the time of COVID?

Philip Long [00:16:05] Yeah. So it's a really important question, particularly for the year that we're talking about in relation to share of the work you've been doing. It's very important work in museums and galleries and and in organisations such as National Trust for Scotland, because it's so important to understand your audiences. It helps direct your efforts, prioritise your work, and of course, it's so important in relation to how one goes about funding one's organisations and activities. Put an application to a funder and you can't speak about the impact that it will have on audiences, then you won't expect to get very far. So it's an essential thing to do. And I think the museums and galleries exist to care for collections and research into them. But that's all rather meaningless if it doesn't also done in such a way that you communicate well and have a message to to convey to audiences. Within the Trust, the Trust was visited in the last sort of year of normality in 2019/20 by over four million people. So the audiences are vast. The Trust will always want to do more work on expanding its audiences. And of course, by that I mean just numerically, but being as broadly appealing as possible. It is the case, you know, we do know that the largest audiences that the Trust receives are generally amongst older people, so 50 and older and also families with young children. And I think both is understandable. Trust properties can be remote and require some commitment to get to and one's own transport and so on. For an older audience who have perhaps the leisure time or the disposable income to be able to get to Trust properties, it's understandable that those audiences are perhaps the greatest. Similarly, for families with young children looking for days out, and entertainment and open spaces that are safe, the Trust is very appealing there. We certainly need to do better with what one might call young people, which is probably classified as sort of eleven to twenty six, generations older than that. But we need to think hard about how do we address those audiences? How do we develop a sense of of being relevant to these to these audiences? And I think one of the hardest audiences to be accessible to is perhaps an audience that's even older that, young families who will be working and maybe beginning to start families and so on who are very, very little leisure time and perhaps not a great deal of disposable income because it's all tied up in trying to buy houses and so on. So the first thing is that it's yes, very important to be aware of audiences and to work towards broadening the accessibility, if, of course, that's what one wants to do. It's always very important as well to ask questions about, well, is this particular thing that we're doing going to prioritise a particular audience. In doing so, it may exclude another audience, but it may be valuable to do that, if what one is doing is designed to address a particular audience need. And we're looking at that across the across the Trust. We, for example, have conservation volunteer groups that they can be called a younger audience and then we'll have different sorts of activities that will be perhaps focussed to an audience that will be naturally, perhaps an older audience who just started up again, an initiative with the organisation Young Scot and along with other bodies, like a Historic Environment Scotland and historic houses. So hopefully that will also encourage younger audiences to come to us.

Madison Kuras [00:19:27] That's fantastic. In a previous conversation we had with Dr James Grellier and Dr Lewis Elliott of the Blue Health Project, Dr Elliott was talking about how in his own research, one of the things he was doing was trying to make these blue spaces more accessible to a wider range of people because blue spaces, specifically when they're advertised, oftentimes they are targeted at a group of people who already want to go and already have the capacity to really immerse themselves in all kinds of ocean and water recreation, but at the expense of people who might need a little bit more convincing or might simply just want to go to the ocean or to any blue space. And so that was a conversation that we'd had where he was talking about how important that was to really build up these initiatives, to make these areas more accessible for everybody. You were just talking about initiatives that you had. Could you speak to any specifically?

Philip Long [00:20:27] Of course. And I think I think what you describe is, will ring true for many organisations, whether they're organisations like the Trust that have substantial outdoor properties or or historic houses and sort of museum and collection properties or or just museums and galleries. One needs to think very carefully about not always just preaching to the converted because that will mean the one sphere of influences is really very narrow. So it comes back to the point about understanding audiences and different audience needs and also a recognition, which is absolutely right, that different audiences will want to engage in different ways. So in a responsibility that I had previously, like V&A Dundee, for example, you know, we knew very well that people might come in because they wanted to have a cup of coffee to meet a friend. Others might come in because they want to spend two hours in an exhibition. Others might want to come in because they want to spend a day in a workshop. Others, who might have a very professional interest, will want to be involved and come on a very regular basis to take part in the sort of professional development activities. And so whether it's in a museum or a gallery or a body like National Trust for Scotland, I think it's very important to be aware of and alive to, and also the excitement of thinking about a whole range of means by which people might enjoy and be attracted to getting involved with the thing that one is responsible for, or the thing that one is communicating. And so I'm sure in your own exhibition project it's been an important thing to think about, what are the different ways in for different audiences? So to give you an example about a Trust place, and it might not seem as sort of immediately connected, but I think it is, if you look at someone like Glencoe, which is a most extraordinary wild environment, but also an environment that's been shaped by plinths of people for many hundreds, if not thousands of years, and that can be experienced in very many different ways. It might look as if it's very, very intimidating to enjoying that environment can only be done in a way which is quite specialist, perhaps. And that's rather akin to the views that you were talking about, accessibility to oceans. And but, of course, people can come to Glencoe and come to our sort visitor gate via our visitor centre and enjoy the extraordinary view of Glencoe and find out about the history and the deeply troubling history that has happened in that in that valley. Or they can take a choice to to do some quite low level walks and enjoy the environment in that way or if they want to take on the challenge of really getting up to those mountains, then the trust can support that as well. So I think it's very important to think about the responsibility that one has as a curator or or being responsible for a heritage, is that there are many ways that people might be able to enjoy it and to think about what it could mean to many different sorts of audiences, rather than having one sort of specialised interest. And in the past, I think, particularly museums and galleries, at the worst, they are fairly accused of being exclusive because some of these places do not think about broader audiences and and how they can be meaningful. But the ones that will succeed will think very carefully about that. And I think that's clear when one looks at the sort of diversity of approaches that museums and galleries now take and the sorts of diverse programmes they offer and are quite distinct about different audiences needs in that.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:23:56] One of the elements of our exhibition is a call to action for visitors, for conservation and to preserve blue spaces. What role within the Trust can the public play in preserving these coastal sites? Are there any specific initiatives that you can speak to that the Trust is currently undertaking to preserve coastal space and blue space in general?

Philip Long [00:24:16] Yeah, well, I'm very pleased to talk about that because the trust is, as a conservation body, is responsible not just for conserving the places that it owns, and it's normally easier to conserve what you own than what you might not own, and that means that there's a there's a particular challenge in the conservation interests of blue spaces and particularly the oceans, because really they have a very sort of complex sort of ownership responsibility in the UK, whether that's within inshore waters, and there's a responsibility from government, whether they belong to the Crown, which a great deal of blue space in the UK does. Within the Trust, the things that concern us are planning developments around heritage properties that may threaten those places that tell extraordinary stories. And one in particular that we've been very bothered about recently is the battlefield at Culloden, which is to just east of Inverness, which is such a significant moment and not just in Scottish, but in the history of the United Kingdom, that's being constantly blighted by planning applications around the area that we ourselves own and care for. And so we are calling for that area to be better protected, recognised. Turning to blue spaces, one of the things that we're concerned about is protections for MPAs or marine protected areas around Scotland. There are several marine protected areas designated around the Scottish coast, but the legislation around them that protects them is not as strong as it could be. They can be disturbed particularly by quite invasive fishing methods that will disturb the environment. Now of course, fishing is a very important part of, it has been for many centuries of the of the economy. And so we are looking to campaign for sustainable practises and fishing that will help sustain that industry, but also protect these marine environments. So I think those are two areas that we're particularly interested in at the moment. And for anybody listening to this who would like to find out more about this, then please do go to the National Trust for Scotland website. And if you look in our story section or type in 'manifesto,' you will see our manifesto commitments to campaigning for the care of and the protection of Scotland's heritage.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:26:36] Actually, we had the great opportunity to interview the Sub Aqua team here at the university and they were very passionate about conservation of blue space, including working with different organisations to look at the seabed to see if people had been practising unethical fishing practises and that they had been very active as volunteers and just as students in preserving those marine environments around Scotland as well.

Philip Long [00:27:02] It's so important, you know, if you take marine environments around places that the Trust owns, like the Isle of Canna in the Hebrides and Iona and , and the most extreme, St Kilda, which is in the Trust's ownership. It has an extraordinary designation. It's a jewel UNESCO World Heritage site for both its amazing human history, it was occupied for many thousands of years and then finally evacuated in 1931, the year that the Trust was founded, but it also has an extraordinary marine environment which provides a habitat for unbelievable numbers of sea birds and marine life. And the care of these places is at the heart of what the Trust does.

Madison Kuras [00:27:42] In a personal anecdote, the very first time I came to Scotland, I was about 14 years old and my mother, Nanna and myself went on a tour of the Hebrides. I remember going to this one island that you had to take a long boat ride to, and it was so very remote and I had never seen so many puffins in my life. I just remember walking around that island and there were puffins everywhere and I was just astounded and that was, I'm pretty sure the moment I just fell in love with Scotland.

Philip Long [00:28:13] Can you remember which island, was it Staffa?

Madison Kuras [00:28:15] I think it could have been.

Philip Long [00:28:17] The famous cave is Fingal's Cave that's been so inspirational in art and music.

Madison Kuras [00:28:22] Yeah, I think it could.

Philip Long [00:28:23] Which is famous for its colonies. And of course, not so far away from St Andrews, we have the , which,

Madison Kuras [00:28:28] Yeah.

Philip Long [00:28:29] Which is similarly important.

Madison Kuras [00:28:32] I mean, it was a very rugged island, but that doesn't really narrow it down very much.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:28:39] Describes a lot of Scotland

Madison Kuras [00:28:41] I know, it's beautiful like that. So we are actually coming to the end of our podcast. So I think we have time for a couple more questions before we sign off. So, being a little selfish here and doing a shameless self promotion, one of the wonderful things about the By the Seaside Exhibition was that it was such an interdisciplinary exhibition. Although we did work with the collections a great deal, one of the things that we were charged with was branching out from our host museum's goal because the Scottish Fisheries Museum focuses mainly on the commercial fishing industry and the history of this fishing industry, where By the Seaside focuses on blue space and blue health and recreation. And that was one of the wonderful things about doing this whole exhibition. One of the questions that we have you have you in your history of being a museum professional and now the National Trust for Scotland, have you done any similar exhibitions in your work, ones that might be a little bit of a branch away from the traditional goal of your host museum?

Philip Long [00:29:47] Yeah, it's a good question and well done for doing that because museums and galleries can be, I find, they do try to very much focus on what's particular to them, what makes them distinctive. And despite the fact that the museums and galleries are often places where one want thinks that, you know, the most innovative and sort of boundary pushing work will happen, that's not always the case. They can often stay within their own boundaries. So, I think I think I'd give a couple of quick examples, I mean, and neither are to do with National Trust for Scotland. One is when I

Philip Long [00:30:20] was at V&A Dundee and it was our opening exhibition, which was called Ocean Liners, and that might give the impression that it's about the design, given the V&A Dundee is a design museum, about the design of these great ocean going vessels. But what I loved about that as a subject and which I think often makes great subjects for exhibitions, is when one can identify a subject that really allows the imagination to run riot in in a way and introduce all sorts of topics that that one might not expect. And that can surprise and delight visitors and also comes back to what we were talking about earlier on. It might very well allow one's exhibition to have a much broader appeal if you if you bring that out.

Madison Kuras [00:31:02] Right.

Philip Long [00:31:02] So the thing of ocean liners, which is so interesting, is that they are completely contained worlds in which people would be together for days, if not weeks on end, every single need of all the passengers would need to be catered for. So everything about these environments have to be completely designed for human need; everything from the different services and the different classes of cabins through to the sort of leisure activities that one would have at sea, engineering, design and also societal things to do with immigration and changing views and speeds in which one can travel the world. All of these things came into that exhibition and I think that was that was fascinating about that. Another one which goes a bit further back in what I've done is an exhibition on the architect Basil Spence, which was I did when I was at the Gallery of Modern Art in Edinburgh, which is primarily about the visual arts. So that was an exhibition about a designer, but a designer that was felt to be really interesting in the context of that gallery because he was also outstanding at commissioning the work of artists and his design projects. But what also became very interesting in that was the fact that in looking through that designer's eyes, it was possible to understand quite a lot about social attitudes to many things in the middle of the 20th century. His years when he was at his height, were really from the 1930s up into the 1970s, so a period that went from the pre-war, pre- Second World War period right up into the seventies and covered everything to do with the ongoing development of social housing through to exhibitions as to how one would broadcast one's country in things like the Empire Exhibition in Glasgow in the 1930s, or the Festival of Britain in 1951. So I think the best exhibitions to my mind and the ones I've enjoyed being most involved in are the ones that suggest on the surface that they might be quite limited, but in fact they cover such an extraordinary breadth of human endeavour and or a relationship with the natural environment that you can really pull out so many areas to look at. And that makes them absolutely fascinating. So I'm looking forward to seeing your exhibition because it sounds a great idea to do the Fisheries Museum.

Madison Kuras [00:33:13] Thank you very much. Since we are coming to the end of our podcast, do you have anything that our listeners should keep in mind when considering personal spaces, blue spaces, but also these wild spaces within Scotland, especially in terms of engagement and conservation?

Philip Long [00:33:28] Yeah, what I think is worth saying is, is is perhaps just elaborating on some of the things that we've talked about earlier on, which is that what we've seen in the last year is that open natural spaces, whether they're inland or whether they're around water or by the sea, have become very, very important to people, more and more so we're aware of recent trends like the increase in the world, swimming and so on, that might have seemed to be quite niche activities, but they're becoming more and more important to people. It's been very clear that in the last year, I think from what we've all been experiencing together, we would all agree with this and I'm sure many other people would, the natural environment has become we all understand through the last year how absolutely vital it is to our lives, to our mental wellbeing and to our leisure time, to our to our welfare. And so we must protect that. And it is the case that the conservation of these places is vital, but yet they are at risk. If we don't really address fully the world climate crisis then we are at risk of losing these coastal locations and that is a great concern for all places in the world, not just the ones that benefit from having coasts. And so that would be my final message, I think. We not only enjoy blue spaces doing all sorts of crazy leisure activities, in and around, but they're very important for our mental health and wellbeing and for the future sustainability of the planet. And so if we love them, then we must care for them and take action to care for them and preserve them.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:35:04] Yes, I can't agree with you more, and I really hope that our work within our exhibition will help to cement that as well.

Philip Long [00:35:12] Another point I would make is the inspiration that these places have been to artists over many years. And I'm sure that's evident in your exhibition. When we've been speaking, I've been thinking about artists work that helps us understand why these places are special. I would pick out a couple artists like the Latvian Vija Selmen, who I think has done amazing drawings and dry points of the ocean surface, which if people don't know of, they are really wonderful to look at. And then I think photographers like Thomas Joshua Cooper, who's American born, San Francisco, but for many years head of photography at Glasgow School of Art, and he's taken the most extraordinary photograph of water, whether it's inland or whether it's the ocean at all points around the world, and if listeners are not aware of those artists work, I would really recommend looking at them because they give us an artist's deep insight as to why these places are very, very important to us.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:36:06] That's such a crucial point of blue space and it's tied to well-being as well. This chance to to create and to enjoy that space and be inspired by it. You mentioned the Hebrides, I know one particular piece of classical music that I love is Mendelssohn's Hebrides Overture. And we actually have audio from one of the violinists with the Scottish Chamber Orchestra performing an excerpt of that that will go with our virtual exhibition.

Philip Long [00:36:30] It's such a key piece that, you know, that the fact that that extraordinary Scottish, sort of quite sublime and inspiring landscape in the beginning of the 19th Century inspired classical artists coming from some distance specifically to see these places, that beginning of the opening up of understanding of the value of art landscape, that the romanticism of all of that; Fingal's Cave and Mendelson's music around that is expresses it so beautifully.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:36:56] He really, really had an amazing gift, that's for sure.

Madison Kuras [00:36:58] Yeah. It's it's so wonderful. Thank you for those recommendations. For our listeners back home, please make sure you check them out. I know I will be after this podcast. So thank you very much.

Philip Long [00:37:09] It's a pleasure.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:37:10] Once again, a huge thank you to Phil for taking the time to talk to us about the National Trust for Scotland and the work that's being done. Once again. I'm Rebecca.

Madison Kuras [00:37:20] And I am Maddi.

Rebecca Scholtens [00:37:21] And this has been sound waves.