Vol. 724 Monday No. 99 24 January 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Introductions: Lord Dannatt, Lord Wigley, Lord Collins of Highbury. Questions Constitutional Reform: Referendums Crime: Murder Bill of Rights Bangladesh: Rapid Action Battalion Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (12th day) Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2010 Rent Officers (Housing Benefit Functions) Amendments Order 2010 Motions to Annul Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2010 Rent Officers (Housing Benefit Functions) Amendments Order 2010 Motion to Resolve Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (12th day) (Continued) City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] First Reading Transport for London Bill [HL] First Reading

Grand Committee Energy Bill [HL] Committee (3rd Day)

Written Statement Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2011, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 671 Introductions[24 JANUARY 2011] Constitutional Reform: Referendums 672

Lord McNally: My Lords, on the basis of principle, House of Lords I rely on my distinguished predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Wills, who, when challenged with a similar question, Monday, 24 January 2011. said this: 2.15 pm “Inevitably, however carefully you define this … you do not actually escape the question of judgment … It is inevitably going Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Hereford. to be a subjective test”. On the question of the forthcoming legislation on the House of Lords, I ask the noble Lord to be a little Introduction: Lord Dannatt patient. The Government’s proposals will be put before 2.23 pm the House. General Sir Francis Richard Dannatt, GCB, CBE, MC, Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My Lords, do the having been created Baron Dannatt, of Keswick in the Government consider that constitutional changes which County of Norfolk, was introduced and took the oath, are relatively readily reversed or modified by Act of supported by Lord Bramall and Lord Bilimoria, and Parliament are less obviously in need of the backing of signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. a public referendum than matters which fall into a fixed and almost irreversible constitutional norm? Introduction: Lord Wigley Lord McNally: My Lords, as I say, it is a subjective 2.29 pm judgment, but that would seem to be one possible dividing line when looking at these matters. It would, The right honourable Dafydd Wynne Wigley, having in each case, be a matter for the Parliament of the day. been created Baron Wigley, of Caernarfon in the County of Gwynedd, was introduced and took the oath, supported Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, if a by Lord Elis-Thomas and Lord Faulkner of Worcester, constitutional change is to be submitted to a referendum and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of as the price for holding two parties together in a Conduct. coalition, is that not a poor reason and a worrying precedent? Introduction: Lord Collins of Highbury Lord McNally: It certainly would be if that were 2.35 pm ever to happen in the future. Raymond Edward Harry Collins, Esquire, having been created Baron Collins of Highbury, of Highbury in the Lord Campbell-Savours: Does the noble Lord accept London Borough of Islington, was introduced and made that a referendum on the voting system for the House the solemn affirmation, supported by Baroness Prosser of Commons is a constitutional issue? and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. Lord McNally: My Lords, that is a matter of judgment. I do not know whether this is a trick question. As to Constitutional Reform: Referendums whether, if there is a change in the voting system, our constitution will reflect that, that is a matter of the Question obvious. 2.40 pm Lord Pearson of Rannoch: Why is it right to have a Asked By Lord Grocott referendum on the voting system, about which the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what criteria British people appear to be somewhat indifferent, and are used to determine whether or not a constitutional not right to have a referendum, which was promised to change should be submitted to a referendum. the British people by the Prime Minister who gave a cast-iron guarantee and about which the leader of the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Liberal Democrats walked out of the House of Commons McNally): My Lords, the Government believe that when that referendum was not granted; it was in the Parliament should judge which issues are the subject Liberal Democrat manifesto—in other words, the of a national referendum. referendum on whether we want to stay in the European Union or leave it? How can it be right to have the first Lord Grocott: So there is no question of the without the second? Government adopting any principles towards it, then. I cannot understand the Government’s position on Lord McNally: It is a very interesting question. this because they do appear to have a position. How When the Constitution Committee looked at this matter, can it be right to have a referendum on the major one of its recommendations was that, if ever we came constitutional issue of changing the voting system for to the point of a proposal to leave the EU, it would be the House of Commons but wrong to hold a referendum a matter for a referendum. What happened with the on the major constitutional issue of changing an Lisbon treaty, as with all other treaties since the referendum appointed House of Lords into an elected House of which endorsed our membership, is that it went through Lords? the parliamentary process. 673 Constitutional Reform: Referendums[LORDS] Crime: Murder 674

Lord Soley: Is not the main judgment here one of Crime: Murder how we deal with constitutional measures? Is it not Question time for both Houses to look at how we get agreement as far as possible? When we get agreement, we tend to 2.49 pm get better constitutional change, but it takes time. With European legislation in this area coming up, the Asked by Lord Lloyd of Berwick noble Lord might find that it is not Parliament but the courts which decide whether a referendum should To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have been called. It is rather more complicated than he plan to reconsider their decision, announced in the thinks. Ministry of Justice Green Paper Breaking the Cycle: Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation and the Sentencing of Offenders, not to abolish the mandatory life Lord McNally: No, my Lords. I am thinking on sentence for murder. this matter and have been talking with the noble Lord, Lord Wills, about his own experience. He has told me that he was considering forming some kind of The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord group of wisdom that could look at these issues. We McNally): My Lords, the Government have no plans are still in contact on that. Whether it should be done to abolish the mandatory life sentence for murder. as a parliamentary exercise or government exercise, or given to a suitable think tank, I am not sure, but I do Lord Lloyd of Berwick: I thank the noble Lord for not deny that what the noble Lord has said is good that Answer. Is he aware of recent research that shows thinking. that the public are not in favour of a life sentence in every case of murder, as is so often thought, especially not in cases where the conviction has been of a mercy Lord Stoddart of Swindon: If the Minister cannot killing? Seventy-nine per cent of those consulted in give an assurance that we will have a referendum, face-to-face interviews last May said that they thought can he give an assurance that the Parliament Acts that nine years or less would be sufficient in such will not be used if the House of Lords does not agree cases, which corresponds almost exactly with a recent with any legislation on reform that comes from the decision in the Court of Appeal that reduced the Commons? minimum term from nine years to five years. Against that background, why do the Government continue to Lord McNally: No, I cannot give such guarantees. think that a life sentence is necessary in every case of The Parliament Acts are there for the judgment of the murder? Why not leave it to the judge to decide on the government of the day. As I have said previously, facts of the particular case? Why not at least consult whether there should a referendum to consult is the public on this in the consultation exercise that is a matter for the judgment of the Parliament of the currently taking place? day. Lord McNally: My Lords, the noble and learned Lord Campbell of Alloway: Does not the constitutional Lord is referring to the Nuffield Foundation report process to which my noble friend referred require Public Opinion and Sentencing for Murder. I know that pre-legislative scrutiny of a constitutional Bill, not because he was generous enough to send me the report, only of the Bill currently before the House but any which, in my reading, shows that there is a good deal Bill? of public confusion about the law of murder. Perhaps there is a need for greater education and explanation. The blunt fact is that the Government considered Lord McNally: I think that all parties agree that these and other proposals in the recent, or not so pre-legislative scrutiny is a good idea—certainly, I recent, Law Commission report on the matter. However, have been supportive of it—but, as we have said, it is they came to the conclusion that the time was not not always possible when a radical and reforming right to take forward such a substantial reform of our Government hit the ground running. criminal law.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, can Lord Thomas of Gresford: The noble Lord has the Minister give a logical, rational explanation were referred to public confusion about the law of murder. the situation to arise where there would be a referendum Does he accept that a thoroughgoing review and reform in the country on the system of voting for the Commons of the law of murder, including the abolition of the but not one on the system of voting for the House of compulsory, mandatory life sentence, would be a jewel Lords? in the crown of the coalition Government if it could be achieved in the next five years? Lord McNally: There are so many hypotheses in that question that it would be as well if noble Lords Lord McNally: I hear what my noble friend says showed a little more patience and waited for the and I am sure that many in the Government will proposals on the House of Lords that the Government concur with that assessment. Proposals to act now will bring shortly bring forward. Without pre-empting were given consideration, but we came to the conclusion my noble friend, I know that the Minister answering that the time was not right to take forward such a the next Question is eager to get on to that. substantial reform of our criminal law. 675 Crime: Murder[24 JANUARY 2011] Bill of Rights 676

Lord Borrie: My Lords, was the statement that the Lord McNally: My Lords, I do not have that specific Minister made today approved by the right honourable figure to hand, but I shall write to the noble Lord on Kenneth Clarke, who said, in the same week as the it. The point that he makes is perhaps the one that publication of the Green Paper indicating the view causes the public confusion—that a life sentence does that the Minister has just given, that he did not think not mean inevitably that the person convicted is going that mandatory life sentences were suitable except in to die in prison, although sometimes they do. the most serious cases and that they were quite inappropriate for mercy killings by a husband or wife of the other? Bill of Rights Question Lord McNally: My Lords, over the past few months when these matters have been discussed, a number of 2.57 pm views have been given—I have given some views myself— but the fact is that the collective view of the Government Asked By Lord Wills is that the time is not right to take forward such a substantial reform of our criminal law. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the commission to investigate the creation of a British Bill of Rights will consider the option of repealing Lord Walton of Detchant: My Lords— the Human Rights Act 1998.

Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords— The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): My Lords, the commission will investigate Noble Lords: Cross Bench! the idea of a UK Bill of Rights that incorporates and builds on all our obligations under the European Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, there is Convention on Human Rights. We will make a statement considerable time. I am aware that the noble Lord, to Parliament on the precise terms of reference of the Lord Walton of Detchant, has been magnanimous in commission in due course. giving way twice. Perhaps we can hear him first and then from my noble friend. Lord Wills: My Lords, the very careful words that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has just used appear to Lord Walton of Detchant: Is the Minister aware that open the door to repealing the Human Rights Act. I the House of Lords Select Committee on Medical wonder whether he recalls what he told this House on Ethics, which I was privileged to chair, reported in 7 October last year, when he said that, 1993 that in its opinion the mandatory life sentence “if at the end of this Government’s term there was no Human for murder should be abolished to allow flexibility in Rights Act, there would be no Tom McNally”.—[Official Report, sentencing? The Home Office reported to that committee 7/10/10; col. 217.] 23 cases in which a positive act by a family member Can the Minister clarify the situation for the House had resulted in the death of a loved one suffering from and say whether he still agrees with me that the terminal cancer. In every case, a charge of murder was Human Rights Act provides essential protections for considered. However, because the conviction of the the rights and liberties of the individual in this country individual would have given rise to a mandatory life and does so by enhancing the protections already sentence, the charge in all but one case was amended available under the European Convention on Human to attempted murder, as it was recognised that no jury Rights? Will he stick to his commitment to resign if would be likely to convict. Was that not therefore a the Government move to repeal the Human Rights case in which the law was being manipulated? Act?

Lord McNally: My Lords, I do not try to mislead Lord McNally: My Lords, when I was studying the House in any way in acknowledging that some of politics at university, I remember a chapter in the book these issues have been before successive Governments about the man who forgot Goschen. That was Lord for a very long time. On some of the issues, such as Randolph Churchill, who threatened to resign so many when the plea is on grounds of a mercy killing or a times that in the end the Prime Minister of the day related defence, successive Governments have taken accepted the invitation and replaced him with Viscount the view that this is a matter for Parliament rather Goschen. I am well aware that we have a Viscount than the Government of the day. Within their broad Goschen in this House. I think that you can threaten decision not to attempt a major reform of the law at to resign too many times in a political career. the moment, the Government are trying to look at the I do not think of the decision to go ahead with a guidance so that it may be simplified and to trust the commission on the working of the Human Rights Act judgment of judges in these matters. as any dark plot to repeal it. Again, I have called the noble Lord in aid so often today, but he knows that Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Can my noble friend tell when he was in office, he took a similar look at the us how many convicted murderers who have been effectiveness of the Human Rights Act. That is what given life sentences have actually died in prison? Surely we will do. In all I do, I shall ask the question asked by the reality of a mandatory life sentence is that it does the late and lamented Lord Bingham, “Which particular not actually amount to that at the end of the day. human right do you intend to repeal?” 677 Bill of Rights[LORDS] Bangladesh: Rapid Action Battalion 678

Lord Faulks: The Minister said on another occasion—I Lord McNally: The coalition agreement made it think at the Liberal Democrat Party conference—that clear that this exercise would be a matter of building he was anxious that the Act should be “better understood on the European Convention on Human Rights. That and appreciated”. Does he envisage, along with other remains our intention. steps that might be taken, giving a gentle reminder to courts and tribunals of the provisions of Section 2, Lord Bach: The Minister is well known and widely which requires them to “consider” Strasbourg respected for his support for the Human Rights Act. jurisprudence, as opposed to slavishly following it Does he agree that the introduction of that Act by the even if the decision is contrary to common sense? previous Labour Government, supported by his party, represented a huge step forward for the liberty and Lord McNally: Most certainly, my Lords. One thing freedom of the British people? that I have been looking at is whether it is possible to give some guidance in the exercise we are undertaking Lord McNally: My Lords, I most certainly do but, which will point our courts to such a sensible review of as has been said, the previous Government were taking human rights cases. Nothing does more damage to a long, hard look at that legislation—and quite sensibly, human rights than court judgments that call on human because the Act is sometimes misrepresented and rights, not always accurately, as the justification for misreported. Anyone who believes in it, as I do, would action which the general public think is absurd. also recognise that it does not have the national buy-in which I would like to see for a Human Rights Act. Our exercise will educate people and give them a greater Baroness Whitaker: Nevertheless, does the noble understanding about what I referred to otherwise. It is Lord agree that the Human Rights Act has done much not a Human Rights Act for villains. It is our Human to underline the dignity of ordinary people through Rights Act and the more we understand that, the the courts when they have restored the right of elderly better it will be. people to life-saving treatment in hospitals and the right of brothers and sisters not to be separated if they go into care homes, along with many other such Bangladesh: Rapid Action Battalion decisions? Question Lord McNally: My Lords, I could not agree more 3.05 pm because, importantly, whereas we get the odd publicity Asked By Lord Judd that seems to suggest that the Human Rights Act is there for the benefit of villains, the understanding that To ask Her Majesty’s Government what part we need to get through to people is that it is our they are playing in the training of the Rapid Action human rights which the Act protects. Just to add to Battalion in Bangladesh. what I was saying to my noble friend, one reason why I am an enthusiast for celebrating Magna Carta in four The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth years’ time is that I want people to understand that Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The United Kingdom human rights are part of our DNA as a country— Government have been providing basic human rights something that Lord Bingham often emphasised. I am and ethical policing skills training to the Rapid Action in talks with my honourable friend Sarah Teather Battalion in Bangladesh since 2008. We consider it about how human rights can be better included in important that the Bangladeshi Government have the teaching in schools. capability to maintain effective law and order, so as to protect the safety and human rights of the Bangladeshi Lord Dubs: In an earlier answer the Minister referred public and to minimise the extent to which to a UK Bill of Rights. I wonder whether he would counterterrorism threats emanate from Bangladesh to care to say something about the position of Northern the United Kingdom. The aim of our work is to Ireland, where for a long time there has been a request further improve the Rapid Action Battalion’s standards that there should be a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights in accordance with our own values and legal to reflect decisions made in the Good Friday and responsibilities. other agreements. Lord Judd: I thank the noble Lord for that reply and for his very positive leadership on this issue. Lord McNally: The noble Lord is quite right. There Does he not agree that great commendation is due to is a commitment but, having looked at this matter, we the British armed services for much of the training feel that the Good Friday agreement commitment that they do across the world in very difficult should be honoured separately and not as part of this circumstances? Does he not also agree that great pains exercise. must therefore be taken to avoid directly or indirectly becoming associated with organisations conducting Lord Thomas of Gresford: In his first Answer, the themselves in a way that not only negates everything noble Lord referred to building on the European that we believe to be worth defending in our society Convention on Human Rights. Will he assure us that but plays into the hands of militant extremists by if there is to be a replacement of the European convention provoking resentment? Does the noble Lord further by a British human rights Act, it will contain all those agree that, within Bangladesh, there is widespread provisions and additional provisions as we see necessary popular dismay and contempt for the behaviour of for the circumstances in this country? that battalion? 679 Bangladesh: Rapid Action Battalion[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 680

Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is absolutely The House is a self-regulating Chamber. Most noble right to refer to those concerns, which Her Majesty’s Lords see that as fundamental to the way in which this Government certainly share. We have remained engaged House works. Over the centuries we have devised ways through this programme, which is generally part of of working based on freedom and flexibility of debate. our counterterrorism programme, in order to seek to These freedoms underpin the reputation of the House raise the standards and improve the human rights as a place of responsible and serious scrutiny and all skills of that particular body. It has been uphill work; of us value these freedoms. Part of our way of working we are anxious to do more. We are in constant contact is through the usual channels. One of their key functions with the Bangladeshi authorities, through the British is to arrange business in the Chamber so that the High Commission, and it is exactly the sort of matter House makes best use of the time available to scrutinise which my right honourable friend the Prime Minister legislation and hold a Government to account. As will raise when he receives the Prime Minister of many noble Lords are aware, the usual channels routinely Bangladesh, Sheikh Hasina, who is coming to visit discuss an overall timescale for each Bill and come to next month. These matters will be discussed there and an agreed estimate of the likely number of days required the noble Lord is quite right to raise them. to complete Committee. The usual channels sometimes get this estimate wrong, but they operate in a way that Lord Avebury: My Lords, according to the Bangladeshi ensures that there is flexibility if a little more, or even human rights organisation Odhikar, 127 people were less, time is required. extra-judicially killed in 2010, more than half of them On this Bill, the usual channels have been unable to by RAB. Has the Foreign Secretary sought the advice agree an estimate of the length of time required for of the FCO’s recently appointed human rights advisory Committee. This is unprecedented and worrying. Even group on whether it is appropriate for us to offer on some of the more controversial Bills that this training to a paramilitary force that is alleged to have House has considered in the past 50 years, the usual murdered so many suspects and to have operated a channels have agreed the approximate amount of time torture centre where British suspects were tortured to to allow the House to exercise its scrutiny function gain information? Will the Government ask the Guardian fully and effectively. An agreement through the usual to make all the available material on RAB available to channels provides a framework that allows both Sir Peter Gibson for his inquiry into the alleged British government and opposition to conduct their business knowledge of improper treatment of prisoners abroad? efficiently while not infringing upon the House’s right to regulate itself. Such agreements are the cornerstone Lord Howell of Guildford: I am sure that all necessary of the work that we do here. information will be provided for that inquiry. These matters have been discussed, and they continue to be The Opposition asked for more time for greater discussed and reviewed most carefully. It is obviously scrutiny on this Bill. The Bill has received more time, a matter of difficult judgment in how to ensure that but it is not good for this House, or for the legislative our engagement and, indeed, support for the Rapid process across Parliament as a whole, to assign an Action Battalion leads to an improvement in the situation infinite amount of time to the passage of a particular that we have confronted, which my noble friend Bill. Other Bills need to pass through this House, and mentioned. The answer to his question is: yes, we are there is other business that many noble Lords wish to concerned and, yes, all those concerned with the consider. Let me set out a few facts about the position promotion of human rights in the Foreign and that we find ourselves in today. Commonwealth Office are focused on how we can Today will be the 12th day in Committee on the improve this programme and the effectiveness of training Bill. The other place took five full days on the Floor to in the handling of human rights. That must go forward. complete Committee. The Clerks have not been able to find another example of a Bill that has taken more Parliamentary Voting System and than 11 days in Committee on the Floor in recent years. We have now spent nearly 80 hours in Committee Constituencies Bill on the Bill. The other place completed Committee in Committee (12th Day) 25 hours. On day one in Committee, we started with 47 groups of amendments for debate. Those groups 3.10 pm were agreed by all those who had tabled amendments, yet we start day 12 with a further 54 groups of amendments remaining. Motion Moved by Lord McNally I have spent some considerable time in recent weeks considering how, if the usual channels cannot function That the House do now resolve itself into in the normal way, the House could exercise its core Committee. function as a self-regulating Chamber. It is not a question that I have ever had to consider before. I have The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord discussed this with others, but we have not yet found a Strathclyde): My Lords, as we begin another week clear answer. If we are unable to make reasonable almost entirely dedicated to the Parliamentary Voting progress towards completing Committee proceedings, System and Constituencies Bill, I shall update the I believe that it will be right to take soundings from all House on its progress. I do so very much in the spirit quarters of the House, including from the Opposition, of Leader of the whole House in order to inform the as to the best way forward. Clearly, any solution needs House. to be acceptable to the House. 681 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 682

[LORD STRATHCLYDE] stage of the Bill in a timely fashion with the necessary compromises There is now a real risk of the Bill not becoming on both sides having been achieved”.—[Official Report, 19/01/2011; law in time for the people to have their say in a col. 401.] referendum on 5 May. I do not believe that that is what We on these Benches very much agree with these the House intends and it will raise questions about our views. In that spirit, I can report to the House that I ability to revise if we do not present the Bill in time. and others met Ministers last week on these matters The Government wish to listen to what the House has and put proposals to the Government, although so far to say. Concessions were made during proceedings in this has not borne fruit. There have been further the other place. We are considering, as we always do in contacts over the weekend and we have sought to do Committee, further concessions to put to this House. all we can to promote further discussions, so we are The Government have already lost two divisions, with profoundly grateful for the statement that the Leader every possibility of losing more. We are open to changes of the House has given today. We are, as the noble to the Bill, but not to changes that would undermine Leader says and as the House is aware, at an impasse. the fundamental purpose of the Bill agreed at Second The Government’s right to get their business done in Reading, which I believe have majority support both reasonable time has to be balanced with the Opposition’s in this House and across Parliament as a whole. right, and indeed responsibility, to give reasonable scrutiny to any Bill but particularly to an important 3.15 pm Bill of considerable Parliamentary and constitutional Alongside this, we must, together, find a way for the significance. House to complete consideration of the Bill in a The House has faced such an impasse before on a timely manner. I very much hope that it will be through number of occasions and has met and resolved it by the usual channels that a resolution will be found, but the House giving leadership. That is both what we ultimately, if the usual channels are unable to act soon need to do now and what I hope we will do now. The to resolve this impasse, I may have to come to the Leader of the House had three principal points in his House and ask for its advice on how best to proceed. I statement and our response to them is as follows. We finish by noting that at some point we may need to will continue to involve ourselves constructively in any review how all our conventions work, rooted as they discussions. We will consider constructively any of the are in the principle of self-regulation, and, indeed, Government’s proposals, as indicated in the statement whether we need new conventions, as some have suggested. today by the Leader of the House. We will participate It is something that I would wish all parties, as well as constructively in any wider discussions beyond the Bill the Cross Benchers, to play their part in. currently in front of us about the conventions of the House. I know that noble Lords understand the seriousness of the position in which the House finds itself on the The statement from the Leader of the House indicates Bill, but I am equally sure that there is a desire across that the will for discussions is now there. We welcome the House to find a sensible and constructive way that, although it will of course be for the discussions forward. themselves to show whether that will translates itself in practice into specifics. Concrete progress is required on the issues of concern in the Bill. With concrete Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I am grateful progress, I am confident that we can resolve the impasse to the Leader of the House for his statement. We before us, but that will involve give and take. In the welcome the Government’s constructive approach, as mean time, we will continue to maintain the level of set out in the statement. We on this side have repeatedly scrutiny that we have been applying to the Bill, with made it clear that we are ready and willing to talk. We many amendments in front of us yet and considerable believe that that is the right way forward. We believe scrutiny still to be carried out in this Committee. that that approach is what this House wants to see and that it is right for the Bill and right for this House. We This House had a tough and difficult time last wish to preserve the self-regulating nature of your week. We debated the Bill long into the night. I do not Lordships’ House. know whether the House faces a tough and difficult time this week as well. However long we sit, we on this In his wise intervention last week when we last side stand ready for constructive and positive discussions. considered the Bill, the noble and learned Lord, Lord We welcome the fact that the Government are indicating Mackay of Clashfern, made clear his support for their readiness to take the same constructive and negotiations because, as he put it, positive approach. “it has always been the way to work”. Looking for, “a spirit of real co-operation”,—[Official Report, 19/01/2011; Baroness D’Souza: My Lords, I speak on behalf of col. 405.] the Cross-Benchers. It will come as no surprise he hoped that we would have some concessions from that there is deep concern among us about the Her Majesty’s Government and that we will respond breakdown in the conventions and procedures of this constructively. I very much agree with that view and House. I thank the Leader, the noble Lord, Lord with the view from the Cross Benches, which was Strathclyde, for his words today, but would like to expressed so well by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill muse a little further on the possible consequences for of Bengarve, and the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, this Chamber. who said: Scrutiny is our job, but I doubt that a reasonable “I urge that the Government and the Opposition redouble person would conclude that the speeches in the dark their efforts to reach a compromise so that the debate can proceed hours of the night last week, and maybe even again in a timely fashion and we are able to conclude the Committee tonight, represent scrutiny or sensible revision. We are 683 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 684 therefore forced to believe that it is the Opposition’s In exchange for that, it is vital that the Opposition intention to delay the Bill beyond the date on which it accept their responsibility and cease to create what is would be possible to have a referendum: 5 May. in effect a filibustering lobby—for that is what it is. It Many Cross-Benchers, of course, hear the justifiable is high time, speaking as someone who cares very worries that the Opposition have expressed about the much about this House as an essential element in a lack of scrutiny of certain parts of the Bill, and I am sensible, thoughtful and responsible democracy, that it sure that we acknowledge the difficult combination of is accepted that there should be some relatively small two contentious issues for reasons of political expediency. movement on both sides so that we can get an agreement We recognise that the date of 5 May was always, to say and decision on this issue within the next few days the least, an unhelpful goal. I think everyone would and, to put it bluntly, cease to lose the respect that we also agree that there is some legitimate question about so much need, and usually deserve, from the rest of the whether the Salisbury/Addison convention really should country. apply to this Bill. Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, I have given Despite all this, I hope that I am expressing the notice that I again wish to propose that we do not views of the majority of Cross-Benchers in saying that continue with these proceedings at all. I hope for a the tactics that the Opposition are using to delay the more helpful answer today than the one I was given Bill fly in the face of the conventions that have governed last Wednesday. I have been encouraged to try again this House for perhaps the past six decades, that these by several noble Lords who have told me that the tactics undoubtedly bring this House into disrepute, brush-off that I was given last week was really most that any success of such tactics may well encourage unsatisfactory and not at all in accordance with the their further future use, and that these factors put convention of your Lordships’ House that the together may even mark the beginning of the dissolution Government at least try to answer questions; they of this House. I say this with some reluctance—even should at least make a fair stab at it, even if they do to me, it sounds somewhat dramatic—but I believe it not like the answer. to be true. Why would the public, let alone the other place, choose to support a Chamber that is seen to be My question last week was simply whether it was it deeply unserious in undertaking the role of revision was sensible to break our traditions and spend so and scrutiny? We are at a dangerous crossroads. much time and energy debating the method by which Members are elected to Parliament when so much As everyone knows, the Cross-Benchers are fastidiously power has been passed to Brussels that they can do independent and non party political. What I say is very little when they get there. My question today goes absolutely not anti-Opposition; indeed, as has been further, and I touched on it in the first Oral Question said and was shown by Cross-Benchers in this House today: if we are to have a referendum on anything, last week, we very often support the Opposition in why is it not to be on what the British people have been their valuable amendments. No, our collective concern— promised, which is whether or not we want to stay in for once, perhaps we are acting as a group—is that the the European Union? After all, such a referendum was self-regulation and fundamental tasks of this House given as a cast-iron guarantee by the Prime Minister are sufficiently valuable to be preserved. We therefore during the run-up to the Lisbon treaty. The leader of both understand the need for and urge that there be the Liberal Democrats, and this sews up the coalition significant compromises on both sides of this House Government quite nicely, actually walked out of the so that we may proceed with dignity and resolve. House of Commons—some would say flounced—because he was not allowed a vote on whether we wanted to Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, what the stay in or leave the EU. Such a referendum was also in noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, has just said is of his party’s manifesto. extreme importance. She has summed up very well Why are we wasting so much time on a referendum what is at stake in an issue that has far greater repercussions to which the public are supremely indifferent while than the source of the differences between the two denying them one that they have been promised and sides of the House. We do indeed put at risk the whole which 85 per cent of them say they want? Surely the reputation of the House of Lords as a place of intelligent Deputy Leader of the House must agree that this sort and thoughtful discussion, where from time to time of procedure, together with the regrettable filibuster essentially bipartisan considerations give way to the that is clearly being mounted by Labour Peers, can do greater needs of the constitutional issues that affect nothing but harm to the reputation of your Lordships’ the United Kingdom and its people. House. Can it do anything but make the British people In that context, observing this as someone who has despise their political class even more than they do at not taken detailed part in the debate, it seems clear to the moment? Here I entirely share the sentiments and me that there is some room to move on both sides. I the words of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza. suggest that one of the issues that might be moved on I add my thanks and those of my party to all the is that of giving slightly more discretion to the Boundary staff in your Lordships’ House, who are behaving with Commission on constituencies with a natural such amazing fortitude and courtesy throughout these community. The House’s choice on the issue of the Isle regrettable proceedings. I fear that we do not deserve of Wight showed how strongly it shares that view, and such service if we continue. it is only sensible to do that within the narrowest conceivable limits, which basically means equal-sized Lord Grenfell: My Lords, I have not taken part in constituencies while recognising that some issues have the debates on the many amendments that have been to be given rather more discretion than the present Bill before us because, to be honest, I have not wanted to gives them. contribute to the length of the proceedings. 685 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 686

[LORD GRENFELL] pass but Part 2 be brought fully into force later by I have listened carefully to what the noble Baronesses, order, without compromising the start of work by the Lady D’Souza and Lady Williams of Crosby, have Boundary Commission. said. However, I have to reject the accusation of filibustering. The House must understand the frustration Lord Strathclyde: I thank all those who have taken that is felt on this side of the House that a matter of part, particularly the noble and learned Lord. I very such constitutional importance arrived in this House much recognise the constructive way in which he wishes without a White Paper or a Green Paper, and that the to continue. I hope we will soon be able to restart the issues in the second part of the Bill are of fundamental Committee stage. I also thank the noble Baroness the interest to the public because they concern the Convenor of the Cross Benches. It is always difficult constituencies. I agree that at times we on my side of for the Cross-Benchers to involve themselves in what the House—I will get no accolades from the Front they might see as being a political fight. This is now Bench for saying this—have gone too far in discussing much more than a political battle; there are serious the amendments and that maybe it would have been issues about the role of the House in scrutiny, which I better if they had been discussed more briefly. However, tried to lay out. I very much welcome what the noble they were and remain important amendments, because Baroness said. this is an incredibly difficult issue to deal with. I will not respond in detail to what everybody has The real problem that faced us, as we all know and said. I say briefly to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson: have discussed many times in this House, was the fact there are many opportunities in this House to raise the that there were two parts to this Bill when there should issues that he has raised—in Private Members’ Bills have been two Bills. What has happened to irritate the and through amendments to other Bills. He may well House, and maybe the public at large, has been due to have a point but it is a point that is not part of this the fact that the second part of the Bill would have Bill, specifically. I urge him to raise these matters in been a much shorter exercise if it had been a second debate, rather than on this Motion. The noble Lord, Bill. As my noble and learned friend on the Front Lord Williamson, makes a suggestion similar to those Bench has said many times, we would have had no that many others have made. We do not mind how we problem about meeting the date of 5 May if it had resolve these issues—we know that there must be a been debated and dealt with separately. However, a resolution—so long as we do not delay the main matter of such great constitutional importance as purposes of the Bill. I beg to move. changing boundaries and all that that involves in reducing the number of Members of the House of Motion agreed. Commons deserved a separate Bill. All I say to Members of the House is: please Clause 11 : Number and distribution of seats understand the frustration of those on these Benches. It is not a question of trying to hold anything up but Amendment 68 of trying to get proper scrutiny of a major constitutional Moved by Lord Snape issue. If only there had been two Bills instead of one, we might have avoided this unfortunate situation. I 68: Clause 11, page 9, line 30, at end insert— “( ) Each constituency shall be wholly within a single county now agree that we should try to move forward as fast boundary.” as possible, but I beg noble Lords to understand that where there are amendments that are absolutely essential Lord Snape: My Lords, in speaking to this group of to the second part of the Bill—to make sure that it is a amendments, I bear in mind the exchange that has just good Bill in that second part—we retain the right to taken place in your Lordships’ House. I hope that discuss it fully, as a scrutinising and revising Chamber whoever replies from the government Front Bench will should. accept that these are important amendments, which are worthy of discussion, particularly bearing in mind 3.30 pm what has just been said about the need for your Lord Williamson of Horton: My Lords, some of us Lordships’ House to act as a revising Chamber. Most are very keen to see the possibility of some approach of the matters covered by this group of amendments that would lead to a solution to the evident difficulties were not debated in the other place for various reasons. in the passage of the Bill through the House. Since we I do not particularly blame the Government for that. have dealt with the amendments to Part 1 of the Bill, it Some of us who have been around for a while—at would seem reasonable to foresee that this part of the least in the other place—were not particularly happy Bill should go through with a view to the referendum about some of the proposals made after the 1997 taking place on 5 May. However, the timing for Part 2 general election to revise the sitting hours of the of the Bill is not so tight, as it requires action on House of Commons. We pointed out that some time—that constituencies to be in place by October 2013, with a time is now but we pointed it out even back then—the view to the next election. Has the Leader considered—or Labour Party would be in opposition and might well would he consider—the possibility that the Bill might regret that the number of hours available for debate launch the Boundary Commission’s work but that for many of these important matters would be curtailed Part 2 would come fully into force only by order at a under those proposals to amend the hours of the other later date? We know there are several other issues, such place, which were accepted. So much legislation now as the need for some flexibility in the 5 per cent margin comes before your Lordships’ House not debated at all on the size of constituencies. However, I intervene or, if debated, done so under a time limit and certainly now on this key issue of timing so that the Bill might without any great thoroughness. I repeat: that particularly 687 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 688 applies to this group of amendments. I hope that the Many of us pointed out at the time that the creation noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, will bear that of metropolitan county councils would be an extremely in mind when he comes to reply and will acknowledge expensive exercise. So it proved to be. Chief officers of that this group contains some serious and relevant those local authorities rightly expected—and got— proposals for the improvement of this piece of legislation. substantial pay increases because of the size of the I labelled him “the nice Lord” last week, which probably population for which they were responsible. However, did not enhance his career greatly among his colleagues the Local Government Act 1972 went ahead and the but I meant it anyway. metropolitan county councils were created. They came On Amendment 68, the fact that so many of your into being in 1974. Within 12 years, a Conservative Lordships have already expressed concerns about the Government decided to abolish the metropolitan county new constituencies crossing county boundaries is worth councils. repeating, albeit briefly.After all, the county councils—the I do not say that the noble and learned Lord, Lord 48 ceremonial counties, as they were known—were set Wallace, who is replying to this debate, has any up as long ago as 1888 by the Local Government Act responsibility for that, but it would be an interesting of that year. Although further reforms took place in financial comparison if he told us how much that the back end of the 19th century, the counties were particular exercise—the creation of metropolitan county significantly formed in 1929, when many of the powers councils and their abolition within 12 years—cost the available to those county councils were increased. taxpayers of this country. I would hazard a guess that They were largely curtailed by the Local Government it was considerably more than the supposed savings to Act 1972, which led to the demise of some local be made from the abolition of 50 or 60 Members of authorities, such as the Ridings of Yorkshire and the other place. I hope that the noble and learned Westmoreland, to name but two. Concern has been Lord will give us some figures so that we can compare expressed in your Lordships’ House over the course of and see just how genuine this supposed saving is going the debate about the prospect of the new constituencies to be for the British tax payer. crossing county boundaries. I do not wish to repeat anything that was said. I understand that people in Amendment 69 refers to the number of local authority Devon and Cornwall feel very strongly about these boundaries in the new constituencies. I plead no superiority matters, as do some Members of the other House. over any other Member of your Lordships’ House I indicated when I got to my feet that much of this who did not serve in the other place, but I know that legislation has not been properly debated in the House the Minister who is replying did serve there. He knows, of Commons. However, much of it was reported on by as I know, the difficulties of constituency Members of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee of Parliament and the importance for them of establishing the Commons, which had the following to say about and retaining a relationship with senior officers as well constituencies crossing other boundaries, particularly as councillors in the local government area in which as far as county councils are concerned. Page 25 of its their constituency lies. report on the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill, under the heading “Constituencies As with noble Lords of all parties who have served crossing other boundaries”, says at paragraph 78: in the other place, I met constituents who came to me with problems that were entirely a matter for the local “Requiring all constituencies to be within 5% of the electoral authority. I said at one of our earlier debates that quota would mean … the creation of constituencies crossing regional and county boundaries, not least in Cornwall and Devon. some of my colleagues down the Corridor, perhaps Keep Cornwall Whole, a cross-party group campaigning against with more courage than I, would say to those constituents this aspect of the Bill, told us”— who came with purely local government problems: that is, the committee— “This is nothing to do with your Member of Parliament, take it to your local councillor”. Many of us, with “that creating a constituency with a number of historical, political some difficulty perhaps as far as our parliamentary and geographical identities would pose a serious challenge to the local MP, and that”— majorities were concerned, did not see that as a proper way forward, and took up those matters on behalf of here the committee quoted Keep Cornwall Whole— those constituents. “‘there is a severe risk that elements of it will go under-represented or indeed unrepresented.’ They have stated that loosening the The relationship with senior councillors and officers— equalisation requirement for constituencies to within 10% of the directors as they became, thanks to the Local Government electoral quota would mean avoiding the need for a constituency Act 1972—was such that I could ring, let us say, the to cross the Devon-Cornwall border”. director of some particular function in Sandwell Council, I hope that the Government will look carefully at which lay in my own constituency; I would not say that report and will see what they can do to prevent “Do this” or “This must be done”, because Members constituencies crossing county borders. One of the of Parliament in the other place have no such powers, main reasons behind this part of the legislation—the but I would say, because of the relationship I had new constituency sizes—was given by Her Majesty’s established, “Would you look personally at this particular Government as the need to save money. Removing case?”. Quite often I got a reply saying “We didn’t 50 or 60 Members of the other place would, it was handle that very well and this is what I propose to do”. said, save millions of pounds. I remind your Lordships, That is entirely a normal relationship and one that particularly the Conservative Members, that those of noble Lords of all parties who served in the other us who were active in local government in the early place will be familiar with. I put it to your Lordships 1970s remember the Local Government Act 1972 because how much more difficult it would be to do that with of its creation of metropolitan county councils. two or three different local authorities in a constituency. 689 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 690

Lord Naseby: I had a highly marginal seat in We need constituencies that have some affinity. Northampton South and I had three local authorities Drawing lines on maps, as has been pointed out in to liaise with. It is just a matter of application on the these debates, does not a community make; crossing part of the Member. local authority boundaries is something that the Boundary Commission for many years has done its best to avoid. 3.45 pm The committee went on to say: Lord Snape: Yes, I noticed that the noble Lord lost “Another consequence of the 5% equalisation requirement is that the boundary commissions will have to split wards in order his seat in Northampton South at one stage as well; I to achieve the required number of electors in each constituency do not say that that was anything to do with the fact … Professor Ron Johnston told us that research suggested that that he had three local authorities to deal with, but he political activity declined when wards were divided”. would at least acknowledge, I hope, that the resources I have no wish to offend the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, necessary to deal with three different local authorities by talking about political activity, but the party unit of are considerably greater than those needed to deal government in my own party—once the ward and now with just one. I am sure, given his reputation for hard the branch—is normally based on a local government work, that he found dealing with three local authorities ward. If you split that ward then obviously political completely effortless. Those of us who did not perhaps activity in that particular area is likely to be considerably possess his stamina or his drive felt it was pretty affected. That might not bother noble Lords on either exhausting dealing with one, let alone two or three. I side of the House, but all three major parties depend am sure that the noble Lord would accept at least on active volunteers, and what gets volunteers actively some part of what I say; it is easier to deal with just involved in a political party is a sense of community one local authority. that I fear will be lost unless some of these amendments Again I refer noble Lords to what the report from are accepted. the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee This the fourth or fifth time I have spoken on this had to say about this particular aspect of the Bill and legislation. I hope that the noble and learned Lord, that covered by this particular amendment. Lord Wallace, who is to reply, will acknowledge that on no occasion have I spoken for longer than 15 minutes. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I think I am right to These amendments are important. The only real debate recall that the boundary review for the seat for that took place was on the 5 per cent quota, not on the Northampton South took place a few years ago and details that I have outlined in these amendments—and that now it is wholly coterminous with the actual town there is a whole group of them. I say again to noble of Northampton; the other area is not there any more. Lords that if we had really been anxious to be difficult, we would have debated all the amendments separately. These are important matters. I hope that when the Lord Snape: I suspect that the Boundary Commission, Minister replies he will bear it in mind that we are having noted the elevation of the former Member to talking about communities as well as political parties, your Lordships’ House, felt that no one else could and that he will look seriously at these amendments. I possibly follow in his footsteps and therefore made beg to move. sure that the constituency was coterminous with the local authority. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Lord Naseby: Well, after 23 and a half years it is not Snape. Counties are the starting point of any boundary surprising that there were changes made. Yes, the review. They are not the building blocks; wards are the present Member for Northampton South has only two building blocks. Those of us who have been involved local authorities to deal with; not one, though. in boundary reviews in various capacities will know that. I would include among that group myself, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, and many noble Lords on all Lord Snape: Amendment 71 refers to three local sides of the House who have served in the other place. authorities, I think. I have been aware of some of the They will know that counties are the starting point. difficulties, but I must not detain the House for longer Outside London, you always start with a county—it than necessary. can be a shire county or a metropolitan county. You The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee are advised of the number of seats in that county and had this to say so far as local and district councils are the initial recommendations of the Boundary concerned: Commissions are published. “Another practical effect of the 5% equalisation requirement I recall my time working in the east Midlands, when is that many more constituencies than at present would cross local authority boundaries. The numbers involved will vary across the Derbyshire received an extra seat. That came into UK: Scotland is likely to see 15-20 (out of 50) cross-local government force at the last general election and the constituency border constituencies, Wales between 23 and 28 constituencies (of was called Mid Derbyshire. This was because the 30), and in England, where 34 constituencies already cross a electorate had increased and the county qualified for a London borough boundary, the commissions ‘expect to cross new seat. I was always clear that that would be boundaries to an even greater extent in a review carried out under a Conservative seat and in May last year it returned a the terms of the Bill.’ The Secretaries to the English and Scottish Conservative MP. There were knock-on effects. The Commissions, Bob Farrance and Hugh Bucanan, told us they intend to take local authority areas into account when designing review resulted in High Peak becoming coterminous constituencies. In Wales very few constituencies will be able to with the district council boundary. That was positive follow local authority boundaries”. and sensible. A seat called Derbyshire Dales was created 691 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 692 close to the boundaries of Derbyshire Dales District belonged to Wandsworth was partly in Wandsworth Council. The South Derbyshire constituency became and partly in Lambeth. That might not have been so coterminous with the boundary of the district council; bad in itself, except that Wandsworth’s policy was to previously, it had contained a couple of wards in the have a low council tax and to charge pretty heavy rents City of Derby. to council tenants. Lambeth’s policy was to have a There are of course seats all across the county that high council tax and to charge low rents to council cross different district boundaries, but all are contained tenants. within the county. The county is compact; it provides Think of the position of a block of flats in Lambeth historic identity and people understand it. Take away in a Wandsworth-run council estate. The poor people those county boundaries and what do we risk? In living in the Lambeth bit of the estate had pulled two Derbyshire, bits of High Peak would go into Greater short straws. They had to pay the high council tax in Manchester. North East Derbyshire would be put Lambeth and the high rents charged by Wandsworth together with Sheffield, while seats that are largely Council. They were caught both ways. Fortunately based on the towns and districts of Erewash and that situation was adjusted, but the anomaly of splitting Amber Valley would be ripped up. The historic A52, a council estate in two by a constituency and, as it then which was recently named Brian Clough Way, in was, a borough boundary is clearly nonsense. I only recognition of what Brian Clough brought to Nottingham hope that such things will not happen again, which is and Derby, was put in a Leicestershire seat. It is wrong why many of us are concerned that, if anomalies of to ignore these boundaries. Greater London is a county this sort are built into the system, it will damage local and is allocated a number of seats. It is true that in communities, local people and the politics of the area. Greater London seats cross borough boundaries, but Perhaps I may widen the argument away from that account is taken of that. That recognition would go example. We have discussed representing a constituency under these proposals. that was in more than one local authority area. I Seats and communities of course change and would have found that pretty difficult. Many noble movements in boundaries should take account of those Lords have represented areas, either as local councillors changes. However, the Government’s proposals are or in Parliament. It is difficult to represent an area and deeply flawed, as nothing else matters but the number deal with another local authority. It is possible under of people, who are thereby denied their right to proper the present system that one might have to deal with input. They will have the right to send in a letter but another health authority. That is also difficult and I do not to appeal to an inquiry. That is not right. It is most not know what the future will be for the health service regrettable that the Government have not moved on in that regard. For a Member of Parliament to be these proposals, but I live in hope, given what we have effective, it is surely important that the constituency heard from the Leader of the House this afternoon. should reflect the community, the local authority area The names of seats are also important. This is and the way in which the health service operates. In sometimes forgotten, but boundary inquiries are a that way, a Member of Parliament can be most effective. good forum for looking at them. The inquiries do not Take the situation where one wants to achieve always get it right, but they can improve the situation. better co-operation between a health authority and I grew up in Walworth in the London Borough of the social services department of the local authority— Southwark. When I joined the Labour Party in 1979, I co-operation that occasionally does not work too well. found that I was in the Southwark Peckham CLP. I If a Member of Parliament is to be effective, he or she went to secondary school in Peckham, but calling the needs to be able to understand these relationships and, seat Southwark Peckham did not reflect the community. it is to be hoped, to have these bodies covering the The proper name should have been Camberwell, Peckham same area. We used to call them coterminous boundaries. and Walworth, which would have identified the three The other important area is not just the community distinct communities in that constituency. I am pleased but the way in which a Member of Parliament relates that in a subsequent review the seat was renamed to local voluntary groups in the community. These Camberwell and Peckham, which better reflects the groups tend to relate to natural community boundaries. constituency, because most of Walworth has been It is difficult to achieve an effective relationship with included in Bermondsey and Old Southwark, although one’s constituents if the community groups do not that name could be improved. cover an area similar to that of the constituency. I had I bring my remarks to a close in the spirit that has another difficulty in Battersea, because part of the been expressed on both Front Benches. I hope that a constituency was in Balham and the people of Balham deal can be sorted out shortly. did not like to be called residents of Battersea. We had to deal with that one, but it was all done within the Lord Dubs: My Lords, I support these amendments. local authority boundary, and it was a matter of just Perhaps I may give an example of where even the recognising that the community in Balham was different Boundary Commission does not always get it right. from the community in the northern part of Battersea. The point is that there are, at present, ways of getting I would like to feel that the Boundary Commission it right subsequently. will be empowered by amendments to the Bill that I had the privilege of representing the Battersea take these matters into account. I honestly believe that constituency. We had an anomalous situation on the the ideal situation is when a Member of Parliament Wandsworth/Lambeth border. My constituency was represents one community within one local authority within Wandsworth. As noble Lords know, Wandsworth area, not two. That would make for the most effective had a Conservative council and Lambeth, which adjoined relationship and the most effective work of the political it, had a Labour council. One council estate that parties and it would enhance democracy. 693 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 694

4pm reasons, schools need to be merged. A councillor could be faced with the challenge of a school having to Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: I wish to speak be moved from one part of his ward to another. If the specifically to Amendment 69, which states: move crossed the constituency boundary, it would put “Each constituency shall contain only whole local government two adjacent Members of Parliament into conflict. It wards”. is not an edifying sight and it does not help a local I want to address that from a practical point of view, community to remain coherent. but, first, I endorse what my noble friends have said There is also a problem where wards are villages. about the importance of retaining a sense of community Given the way in which the Bill is drafted, in a ward and the significance of the relationship between the that is a village a situation could arise—for example, elected representative and the community that he or as a consequence of a new housing development—where she works with and gets to know. I am sure that any the village becomes too big to remain as a part of one noble Lord, whether they have been a Member of the ward. A chunk would then get taken off it and be put other place or not, would acknowledge that elected into a ward based in another village, even though that representatives for a particular community achieve village might be five or six miles away. That would much more when they work together—be it at the break down the community’s cohesion. local authority level, the devolved Administration level I do not want to delay the House unduly on this or the parliamentary level. matter but we need some common sense in relation to Often that comes into its own in a crisis. I saw it in the building blocks of constituencies. We need to take particular a decade ago, at the height of the foot and into account how people do the day-to-day work of mouth outbreak. It did not affect my constituency representing communities and we need to be seen to but, as I was then the Secretary of State for Scotland, I be responsive to the sense of involvement that individuals saw it in the Borders of Scotland, particularly around have in their communities, be it in the community Dumfries and Galloway. Political differences were put organisations to which the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, aside and people worked together for the good of their referred, or in the formal structures that make up the own community. I experienced it in my former building blocks for the Boundary Commission that constituency when the Boots factory was closed. For the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, spoke about. I urge decades, all Boots’s cosmetics had been made in a the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, factory in Airdrie when suddenly, completely out of to reflect seriously on this matter, because there are the blue, a decision was taken to close that factory, practical difficulties that will cause us great distress in costing more than 1,000 jobs, largely those of women. the future if we do not get them right now. The community and the elected representatives came together. We dabble with that at our peril. Lord Haworth: My Lords, this is the first time that I It is a heartening sight to see elected representatives have spoken in the debate on the Bill—it may be the come together but there is also a less than positive only time that I choose to speak—but I support my element. If a constituency boundary divides a ward, a noble friend Lord Snape on Amendment 68 and what local councillor will have responsibility for two different he said about the importance of the county boundaries parliamentary constituencies—and not always do within the overall process. constituencies agree. Local issues can emerge that My first and only experience of making representations cause conflict between one constituency and the to the Boundary Commission took place many years neighbouring constituency. I am thinking specifically ago in respect of parliamentary constituency boundaries of issues such as the closure of part of a hospital. For within the London Borough of Newham. I was asked example, the accident and emergency department of by my constituency Labour Party to make strong my local district hospital was transferred to the district representations to the Boundary Commission to the hospital in the adjacent constituency, which caused an effect that Green Street—anyone who knows the London extremely fraught debate. People were distressed as a Borough of Newham will know that there is a bus consequence because it meant a much longer journey route that goes straight down the middle of the for those who had cars, while those who did not have borough—was an historical boundary of profound cars would have to go from central Lanarkshire into significance separating the old boroughs of West Ham, Glasgow and back out again. The journey for people which was inside the original London County Council with cars would take a quarter to half an hour, but area, and East Ham, which had traditionally regarded those without cars would perhaps have to give up an itself as being in Essex. entire day. I wanted the accident and emergency I decided that the two sides of that fairly narrow department to remain in the constituency of Airdrie thoroughfare did not meet and, on arriving to make and Shotts, whereas my colleague Frank Roy wanted representations to the Boundary Commission, I found it to go to Wishaw General Hospital. to my terror that I was up against the representative of That kind of thing happens with astonishing the Newham South Conservative Association, who regularity. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace had hired Ivor Stanbrook, an eminent QC—he was a of Tankerness, perhaps sees that one of the few leading Conservative Member of Parliament, who benefits of a constituency that is all islands is that it represented Orpington at the time—to put what was, is all your own, whereas in the more urban areas such effectively, the opposite point of view. We argued our issues of conflict can arise. This is particularly true in cases and the Boundary Commission went away and relation to schools and we see it a lot at the moment in no doubt considered the representations that had been Scotland. Schools are often the bulwark of a community made. I was extremely pleasantly surprised when the and sometimes, often for good and sound educational commission altered its original proposals and recognised 695 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 696 that there was a community called East Ham and a I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is separate and different community called West Ham. not in his place to hear this, because I know how often Although a London borough had been created to he says that he is a Lancashire lad and proud of it. I subsume them both, there were nevertheless historical hope that the Minister will consult his noble friend ties on either side of the street—I had represented it as Lord McNally, as well as the Deputy Chief Whip, the being the width of the Thames, but in reality it is noble Lord, Lord Shutt of Greetland, who I am sure is hardly the width of this Chamber—and those a proud Yorkshireman, to ask their opinion on whether communities were kept in separate constituencies. a constituency that crossed the Lancashire and Yorkshire boundary would be a good idea. I think that he will Nothing lasts for ever and, for all I know, given the find that they would agree with me that it is not such a sense of identity that Newhamers may have of living jolly good idea. I hope that the Minister will reflect on in the London Borough of Newham after 30 or 40 years, that and that the amendment will be carried. the width of Green Street might no longer be a particularly important consideration. However, other boundaries have been crossed in London boroughs Lord Bilston: My Lords, I do not intend to detain and parliamentary constituencies, the results of the House for long but I am anxious to give my which have been described to me by friends in Tower support to the amendment moved by my noble friend Hamlets as abominations. For example, the constituency Lord Snape. When we began the second part of this of Poplar and Canning Town spans the River Lea Bill, many Members of this House gave the benefit of and two separate boroughs. The two communities their knowledge and valuable experience on many have almost no means of contact other than one geographical areas the length and breadth of the main road on a bridge, a tube line and the DLR. They British Isles and on the many constituencies that they are completely separate and have traditionally looked have known and loved. in almost opposite directions, yet they have been I hail from the Black Country, a group of once brought together in a constituency that, probably to quite prosperous towns and villages that are proud of people who draw lines on maps, looks fairly their contribution to our industrial heritage, as they straightforward—“Oh, it is along the riverside; we were at the heart of the Industrial Revolution. These could call it ‘Leamouth’ or ‘Docklands’”. In the end, towns nestle no more than two to three miles from the title settled on was Poplar and Canning Town, but each other and they have as many different dialects as it is not a happy arrangement. People who live on both they have distinct communities. I was honoured and sides of the River Lea in that constituency feel that privileged to represent the area of Wolverhampton they have been lumped together with communities and Bilston at local, regional and national level for with different interests. more than 40 years. I am therefore very conscious, together with all my noble friends, of the arbitrary This brings me to the point that I wish to make manipulation of constituencies in the Bill. However about Lancashire. Although I am pleased and honoured desirable more equally sized constituency electorates to have a Scottish territorial designation, I do not may be, the Bill will create lasting damage to close-knit know whether that quite makes me a Scottish Peer. As and settled communities in areas such as Wolverhampton noble Lords will realise, I do not sound very Scottish. I and the Black Country. am a Lancashire lad. Going back to my roots in I would offer in evidence—and this is why the Blackburn in Lancashire, and reflecting on questions amendments are so necessary—the recent analysis of identity, I know that when I was growing up and made by the Electoral Reform Society. It concludes was asked where I came from, I would say, “I am a that five parliamentary seats may be lost in the Black northerner”, rather than, “I am English”, even. Beyond Country and Staffordshire under this Bill. Wolverhampton that I would certainly say, “I am a Lancastrian”. will have just two MPs instead of three and one would There is a certain pride in coming from the red rose end up looking after what are described as some county and I am sure that, on the opposite side of the Walsall matters. Residents in a new Wolverhampton border, there is great pride that all Yorkshire men and South West seat would find themselves split between women have in coming from the white rose county. Wolverhampton and Dudley. In Walsall, one seat would Our rivalries, which were wars if one goes back far disappear, likewise in West Bromwich, Halesowen and enough, should not be allowed to take on too great an Stourbridge, as well as in Staffordshire. importance. The possible destruction of these constituencies is Nevertheless, the sense of identity is extremely too painful to contemplate. Crossing local authority important and I can see that, if this amendment is and ward boundaries will completely undermine not accepted, calculations will be made under the communities and seriously damage community relations. Sainte-Lague method and, for that part of northern In addition, I foresee undoubted problems that people England, it will perhaps be necessary to start at the will experience in obtaining satisfactory advocacy and coast. If we work inwards from Blackpool, Southport representation. All this becomes more and more apparent and Preston on the seaboard of Lancashire and apply as we continue to discuss this bureaucratic and anti- mere mathematics on how big the constituency should democratic legislation. It reminds me of the wise be, it is likely that a constituency will be created—let words of that wonderful philosopher Omar Khayyam: us say Ribble Valley—that will breach both sides of “Ah, Love! could you and I with Him conspire the Lancashire and Yorkshire border, or perhaps there To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire, will be a constituency called Pendle and Craven, which Would not we shatter it to bits—and then again would cross that important historical county Re-mould it nearer to the Heart’s Desire!” boundary. I support the amendments. 697 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 698

4.15 pm Rule 5 is characterised in paragraph 6.20 as follows: Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, there was talk “Rule 5 requires electoral parity as far as is practicable”. earlier this afternoon and last week about filibustering. It also says: I cannot believe it and defy any noble Lord to suggest “Paragraph 6.5 of this chapter sets out how we have overall in good faith that anything that has been said this brought constituency electorates closer to the electoral quota”. afternoon—even one sentence—could possibly be The party opposite when it was in government accepted regarded as filibustering. We have had six contributions this review and fought the previous election on those in less than three quarters of an hour, which is surely a rules. Therefore, my great problem is that I cannot see very reasonable pace. I have certainly listened to every why it does not describe to us how it sees these rules detail that has been put forward sincerely and from being changed by the Bill in a material way. I completely direct experience. concede that there are some material changes. The I suppose that it is possible to despise this whole first one is that, although the fifth review suggested subject of how people organise themselves at local that there should be 613 Members of Parliament, we level, canvass and campaign and how political parties have now reached a rather higher number, and the Bill are structured, their relationship with local government, proposes 600. I also concede that at that time the constituency organisations and so forth. It is possible discretion to the Boundary Commissions meant that to say, “That is the grass roots and I am only interested they departed from plus or minus five to a greater in the high policy issues”. There may be one or two extent than is proposed in this Bill. As far as I can see, rather haughty people in this House who take that those are the only major differences. line. That is terribly unfortunate because if you despise the grass roots of politics you are despising the whole Lord Davies of Stamford: I shall answer the noble way in which our democracy works. Without those Viscount right away. As he says, it has always been the grass roots, we would not have a thriving political tradition and habit of the Boundary Commission to democracy. endeavour to respect county boundaries. Indeed, that It is extraordinary that there have been no contributions is in its explicit rules. As far as I know, it has always from the Benches opposite on these important issues. I respected ward boundaries. I have never heard of a can hardly believe that no one on the other side of the case of wards being split. Perhaps they have but, if so, House has any views whatever on this subject. I can it has been extraordinarily rare. We all know that this hardly believe that they all despise such discussions in Bill will place the Boundary Commission under very the way that I have indicated might be the case. I hope great constraints which, in practical terms, will force it not, although one or two people perhaps do. I find it to breach those important rules: the two constraints very difficult indeed to believe that noble Lords opposite being the limitation of MPs to 600 and, particularly, would not stand up and defend the Government and the 5 per cent rule. We have had other opportunities in oppose the amendments if they thought that the these debates to discuss those two rules, which have an amendments were unreasonable. No doubt they are immediate effect on the extent to which it will be hoping that the Minister will bring some rabbit out of possible to respect county boundaries, local government a hat at the end of the debate in the form of an boundaries or, indeed, ward boundaries. Therefore, I argument against these reasonable amendments, but strongly support my noble friends who are trying none of them seems to have come up with any objections explicitly in these amendments to protect those things whatever. That has been the pattern of the debates, so and to make certain that we do not cross county there is a strong sense that those who have been boundaries except in the most exceptional circumstances. tabling the amendments have been winning the argument Above all—I say “above all” as this is a matter of the and that those who have opposed them when voting greatest importance to me—we do not in any way have done so on the basis of no arguments at all, or want to break up wards and divide them between have at least been unwilling to put any forward. parliamentary constituencies. Therefore, there is now a need for explicit rules, and the purpose of these amendments is to introduce them. Viscount Eccles: My Lords—

Lord Davies of Stamford: I shall give way to the Viscount Eccles: As I read these amendments, the noble Viscount, as I am delighted that I may have noble Lord is not correct when he says that there are provoked him to rise to his feet. to be exceptions. There are to be no exceptions if these amendments are accepted. Viscount Eccles: I am grateful to the noble Lord. He would help me if he could tell me how his remarks Lord Davies of Stamford: Indeed, and that is necessary relate to the rules that applied in the general election in the circumstances. I do not hold to every word of last year. The fifth report of the Boundary Commission these amendments, as I shall explain in a second if the for England was sent to the noble and learned Lord, noble Viscount will give me an opportunity to do so. Lord Falconer of Thoroton, and I do not believe that However, their main thrust seems absolutely right, as, he had many grumbles about it at that time. I shall indeed—I do not want to anticipate the next debate—are read out two rules. Paragraph 6.19 states: the amendments that have been put forward by my noble friends on the Front Bench, which I hope that “Rule 4 requires the boundaries of county and London boroughs to be respected as far as practicable. As explained in Chapter 2, we will get to in the next section. In fact, the first thing we have crossed these boundaries to a greater extent than before, I want to say on the detail of the amendments, with using the discretion afforded by Rule 5 to avoid excessive disparities great respect to my noble friends Lord Snape, Lord in the electorates”. Kennedy and Lady McDonagh, is that I wonder whether 699 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 700 the first amendment relating to county councils Viscount made that point. The last thing the Boundary achieves, technically, what they want it to achieve. The Commission wants to do is to split counties or to amendment states: incorporate in constituencies parts of different counties. “Each constituency shall be wholly within a single county That is something it has managed to avoid doing in boundary”. general. However, we need to strengthen its hand to As I read that text, it means that counties that are too prevent it being pushed in that direction. small to constitute a normal sized constituency would Even more important than counties are wards. They have to be a constituency on their own. I think of really are the grass roots at which politics is conducted Rutland. That would be a very peculiar result to and are the way in which individuals are brought into emerge from the amendment. That is why I fear that I our political system and take an interest in civic affairs cannot support that amendment in its present form if through meeting with their friends and neighbours it came to the vote. However, I may have misunderstood locally to discuss common problems. It is incredibly it and that the problem I have is dealt with adequately important that a ward and a ward committee in a in another context. If that is the case, I shall either give political party has a relationship with one Member of way to my noble friends on that matter now or look Parliament. Immense synergies flow from that because forward to hearing an explanation subsequently in the when you go out campaigning you want to be in a debate, but that aside, I am totally in favour of the position to talk about local and national issues. All spirit of that amendment for two reasons. The first Members of Parliament have to talk about local and concerns a matter I have already dealt with in another national issues and all their supporters ought to be in context in these debates, so I will not dwell on it, and a position to do that. It is no use campaigning for a that is the all-important issue of the extent to which council seat when if somebody raises a national problem the individual elector identifies with the constituency you say, “Actually this is not the constituency of the into which he or she finds himself or herself. Counties Member that I support and so I cannot talk about this are enormously important. We have already heard national issue”. That is a hopeless system. It is very about the great sensitivity which would arise if important that Members of Parliament know their constituencies were spread across the traditional historic county and district councillors, that county and district Lancashire/Yorkshire divide. councillors know their Members of Parliament, that I assure the Committee that if there were any they tackle a common set of problems, work together, suggestion of taking bits of Lincolnshire and putting understand local issues and as far as possible have the them into a constituency with parts of Nottinghamshire, same views on local issues. That may not always be the Cambridgeshire or Leicestershire, there would be the case but at least they feel that they have the same most appalling outcry. I do not doubt for a moment responsibilities which are coterminous. It is only in that that would lead to some people not bothering to that way that the whole political system we have has a vote in either county council elections or parliamentary degree of coherence and therefore of credibility, and elections as a protest. That would go in the exact has in the minds of the electorate a degree of functionality opposite direction from the one in which we wish and purpose. All these things would be very badly to go. damaged by breaking up wards between different constituencies. That is the point on which I feel most Speaking from my considerable experience as a strongly. former constituency Member of Parliament, I want to make a very practical case. It is very important so far as possible to have an exclusive, or at least a limited, Lord Rennard: My Lords, at the conclusion of relationship with local authorities as it is only in that today’s business, no doubt in the small hours of tomorrow way, when one has a large agenda, a lot of give and morning, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of take and when one sees the same people in different Stamford, will say exactly the same thing as he did at contexts, that one can effectively do business together, the beginning of his speech: namely, that we have not and where there is an atmosphere of confidence and witnessed any filibustering. If so, by the time we get to trust, which there needs to be between a Member of the end of today’s proceedings we will have made great Parliament and a local authority, irrespective of political progress on this Bill, with proper and legitimate scrutiny. party. That is enormously important. It is important It seems to me that the legitimate area of scrutiny in to avoid the conflict of interest which could otherwise the amendments is about how far there are guidelines prevent local authorities, which may necessarily have a for the Boundary Commission to follow or how far we rather bureaucratic mentality, contacting a Member at have prescriptive rules which it must follow. I see the all. If there are two, three, four or, God knows, more merits of the case for either strict rules or for guidelines, MPs with bits of a particular local authority, county, but there are strong and reasonable arguments about district council or whatever it is, they might well feel what level of discretion the Boundary Commission that they cannot possibly talk to one of those MPs should have as it endeavours to equalise the size of the without saying exactly the same thing in exactly the electorates for different constituencies. I see that as a same circumstances, taking exactly the same amount reasonable argument to have. of time, with all the others, so they would not bother to do it at all, and so the co-operation, discussion and Lord Davies of Stamford: I am grateful to the noble mutual understanding would not occur. There are real Lord for giving way. He is making a useful contribution practical arguments of this kind in favour of trying, and he is absolutely right: there is a choice for us in wherever possible, to keep county councils within this House this afternoon about going down the guidelines county boundaries. We are, of course, preaching to the route or the firm-rules route. If we went down the converted with the Boundary Commission. The noble guidelines route, which has attractions, would the 701 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 702

[LORD DAVIES OF STAMFORD] hope that we do not cross county boundaries, district noble Lord be in favour of giving the Boundary boundaries or London boroughs more than is really Commission some hierarchy of guidelines so that, for necessary. example, when the issue of community feeling or of ward boundaries conflicted with the numerical targets Lord Campbell-Savours: The noble Lord is emphasising which are being imposed—the 5 per cent rule, for the need to take greater notice of the 5 per cent or example—it would give the former priority and not 10 per cent argument than of the issue of crossing the latter? boundaries. In the light of the debate that took place in Westminster Hall, called and supported by Liberal 4.30 pm Democrat Members, a debate on parliamentary Lord Rennard: Introducing a specific hierarchy of representation called by Andrew George which the priorities is rather more problematic than the noble noble Lord will know of, it is clear that lots of Liberal Lord might think. One problem would be that if you Democrat MPs want flexibility towards the 10 per try to prescribe exactly in which order the commission cent figure. Could the noble Lord go a little further must take into account different factors, you open up and express support for that principle here in the the Boundary Commission process to legal challenges Chamber now? That would help the debate on down the road, which would cause greater uncertainty, immeasurably. including to Members in another place, about the eventual outcome. It seems to me that for flexibility in Lord Rennard: The only principle I will express in the different criteria that the Boundary Commission this part of the debate is my overarching belief, shared has to follow, it is better to say, “in general, in so far as by many noble Lords opposite, that constituencies it sees fit”. When it sees fit how to take into account should have roughly the same sized electorates, but in those different criteria, we should address in this House addressing the different balance of the arguments, how much flexibility it may have in trying to equalise there is in my view more merit in the case for saying the electorates. that we should look at flexibility in the size of the electorates than for saying that we should try to treat Lord Snape: I hope that the noble Lord will forgive each constituency, county or district as a special case. me for interrupting him so early in his interesting For example, I notice that an amendment has been contribution. I draw his attention to the review from tabled by a noble Lord opposite that Cumbria should the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee of be a special case. There is virtually no limit to the the other place that the overall problem is the 5 per number of special cases that you could try to establish. cent leeway one way or the other. If that could be My view in opposing the amendment is simply that looked at, some of the other matters that the noble there is more merit in the flexibility of the electorate Lord correctly raises could be properly considered. argument that there is in saying that you should never cross the ward, the district or the county boundaries. Lord Rennard: I am saying very carefully that I Counties vary enormously in size, and the electorates think that there are good arguments for looking at the can rise or fall rapidly, so it is not proper to say that degree of variation that there might be between the you could never cross the county boundary, but I hope electorates of different constituencies. When, some that it will not happen too often. months ago and before the general election, a proposal was on the table to recreate constituency boundaries Lord Snape: Will the noble Lord give way? with only a 2.5 per cent margin between electorates, I thought that that was far too narrow and tight. The Lord Rennard: I wish to conclude my argument and Bill currently proposes a 5 per cent variation. I am not take further interventions. I think that we should simply saying at this stage that I think there are make more progress on the Bill, and I will conclude legitimate arguments for discussing the variation that my argument rapidly by saying that in relation to we might have, and that those are stronger arguments wards it is of course of general convenience for elected to have than to say that we should have hard and fast representatives and constituents if ward boundaries rules about never crossing county boundaries, district are not crossed, but we now have ward boundaries in council boundaries or ward boundaries. parts of the country—Birmingham, for example—that I speak, of course, as a former party agent and are very large. There are more than 20,000 electors in a party organiser. From my point of view, it was much typical Birmingham ward. In Scotland, where we now more convenient if all the wards were within a have an STV system for local elections—thanks to the constituency; that makes it easier for the parties. I Scottish Parliament and supported by three of the believe that, by and large, that should be the case. four main parties in Scotland—we have larger wards Indeed, amendments that we will consider later in my than previously. name and that of my noble friend Lord Tyler flag up In my view, it would not be possible to have a specifically to the boundary commissions the importance roughly arithmetic equalisation procedure and never of ward boundaries, but we do not suggest that they cross ward boundaries. In some cases—I will conclude should never be crossed. The reason that I think that on this point—there may be a dilemma for the Boundary they can never be crossed is that there is still the Commission. For example, it may want to consider, overarching principle in the Bill of more equal sized “Do we want to keep Birmingham whole and not electorates. By and large, it is possible to achieve more cross the Birmingham city boundary, or do we cross equal sized electorates without crossing ward boundaries. some of the ward boundaries?”. My personal preference Where they are crossed, that should be very rare. I might be to say that it would be better for representation 703 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 704 and good governance to keep Birmingham whole and Lord Campbell-Savours: Perhaps I may take my cross the ward boundaries. For those reasons, I do not noble friend back to the very interesting and constructive support the amendments. contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. I am being very serious when I say that because what he Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords— suggested might, in some ways, influence any negotiations that take place. He placed greater emphasis on the Lord Lipsey: I shall follow directly on from what the numerical calculation than on the area of the amendment noble Lord, Lord Rennard, said, and I shall be extremely with which we are dealing. I ask my noble friend to brief, so my noble friend will not be kept waiting long. press the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, perhaps to intervene In one way, I shall go further than the noble Lord did more, not only on the Floor of the House but with his and say that many of the principles incorporated in colleagues, because that is the way forward on the Bill. the amendments are already present in the Bill in the rules under Clause 11. For example, it states, more Lord Lipsey: I have probably known the noble explicitly than the present rules, that Lord, Lord Rennard, even longer than I have known “local government boundaries as they exist”, my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours, and no one on the most recent council elections, should be a has ever accused him of being as ineffective behind the special factor that the Boundary Commission can take scenes as he is effective on the public stage. I rose into account. It states that a special factor that the immediately after he spoke in order to agree with him Boundary Commission can take into account is local and to show that here we are finding common ground, ties. County boundaries, as we know, most famously which is desirable for the conduct of the negotiations in the case of Cornwall, are exactly the sort of local tie that are now to take place and will help the Committee that it can take explicit regard of. So those principles out of the current impasse, so accurately described are in the Bill. The trouble is that they do not amount earlier in our proceedings by the Leader of the House. to a row of beans because of the 5 per cent limit. That is the problem. Otherwise we would not face this difficulty. Lord Rooker: My Lords, once upon a time there was a place known as the Royal Borough of Sutton Lord Tyler: The impression seems to be given by Coldfield, just to the north of Birmingham. In the Members opposite that somehow the existing situation local government boundary changes under the 1970-74 is that a constituency never crosses a county boundary. Tory Government, it was added to Birmingham in That is of course not true. In the historic case of 1974. The external boundaries of Sutton Coldfield Lancashire and Yorkshire—I can think of no part of have remained exactly the same but it has simply been the country where counties have a more historic rivalry— added to the north of Birmingham. I declare an the constituency of Oldham East and Saddleworth interest, as part of the northern boundary was part of crosses the county boundary. my old constituency of Perry Barr. Earlier today I bumped into the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, who thanked Lord Lipsey: I cannot think what it was in my his noble friends for the support that he got last week, remarks—because no doubt the noble Lord intervened and we had a chat about our joint boundary, which on me seeking clarification—which contravened what was always a bit of a bone of contention come the he just said. When he makes his speech in a minute, no Boundary Commission review. doubt he will be able to develop his point, but I do not In my 27 years as an MP I think there were two think that it arises from my remarks to the House, parliamentary boundary changes and probably three with great respect. local authority ward changes, but this boundary remained exactly the same. I have just looked at a map again Lord Snape: Before my noble friend moves on, I put because it is a few years since I represented the area. to him the point that I sought to put to the noble The historical boundary of the Royal Borough of Lord, Lord Rennard, but he declined it. I refer back to Sutton Coldfield was built almost on the watershed the House of Commons committee to which I referred. but was gradually developed. When you look at a map It states that, of the area, you say to yourself, “What’s that dotted “many more constituencies than at present would cross local line that goes across the back gardens and up the authority boundaries”. alleyways. and at one point splits a cul de sac in half?”. It is referring, as my noble friend implies, to the 5 per This is an urban constituency, and this boundary cent limit. happens to form the line between the B73 and B44 postcodes. There is no question but that in parts Lord Lipsey: I am not in favour of any absolutes—that of the country postcodes affect property values. It has is my point—but I am in favour of greater flexibility, already been mentioned, including by me, that wards which would enable most of the principles in the are building blocks, and the average ward throughout amendments to be respected. Perhaps I may take an England has about 1,400 constituents. Some of them example that came up earlier. Under the Bill, of the are really tiny but the average ward in London has 46 counties of England, in only nine cases can the about 6,000 constituents. However, once you get out boundaries be respected. How does that reflect reality? into less populated areas, the wards are tiny. As building However, if we had a different rule—a 10 per cent rule, blocks they are great because you can add in 100 here for example—those boundaries could be respected in or 200 there in order to make the boundaries come all but two cases, and these specific exceptions would right. However, when you have a ward of 18,000, not need to be brought into effect. Of course I give 19,000 or, in some cases such as the old Sutton wards, way to my noble friend. more than 20,000 constituents, what do you do? 705 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 706

4.45 pm the situation is completely different. They all have I do not wholly agree with all the amendments, for fairly large wards, although nothing on the scale of reasons that I shall explain, but it is self-evident that the city of Birmingham. I cannot see a way around unless the Bill is changed the Boundary Commission this. I have no personal hang-up about crossing a will have to ignore the historical boundary and put county boundary, but that is because I had no experience Banners Gate Road, George Frederick Road, Longmoor of representing the shires. Saying that will probably be Road, Greenway Drive and Elizabeth Road, which an anathema to some, but I would far rather cross the currently fall within the B73 postcode in Sutton Coldfield, county boundary than deprive the county of half an with the nearby ward of Kingstanding, which was MP, because that will be the reality. If you get to named after the abortive attempt of King Charles II 5.45 per cent, you will end up with five MPs and will to make a stand in the area. There must be similar have lost half an MP because you cannot make up the examples around the country. This is not the county other half by joining someone else. I should mention boundary or even the district boundary; it is a ward that it is government policy—and it was the policy of boundary, but the wards are the building blocks. I the previous Government as well—to get local authorities have said that there should be more equality with the to provide services, such as social services, jointly, constituencies, and for that you have to split wards whether they are districts in the same county or another when you have wards this big. I see no alternative. county. Environmental health is a classic case of where I always thought that, when Armageddon came for districts join together and have common services. The the Tories, they would be left with Huntingdon and boundaries are irrelevant to the services that are provided Sutton Coldfield. The only threat to them in Sutton to the people. It can be done and we know that it can Coldfield comes from some of my former friends who be very practical, so I have no real hang-up about it. I are Liberal Democrats. I do not think that they will do not think that it should be the norm but I would take it very kindly when I point out—as I shall do if rather do that than deprive people of, say, up to half a there is no give and take on the Bill—that intransigence Member of Parliament. I can recall the situation before over the Bill will result in all those people within the I was first elected— B73 postcode voting in the Kingstanding ward, and no amount of Lib Dem leaflets will be able to correct Lord Grocott: For a very long time, my noble friend the situation with which they will be faced. That is a represented a constituency that was essentially in the serious point. centre of Birmingham, apart from the period that he I want to raise another point, which was raised by was talking about: when it was adjacent to Sutton the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. When you have big Coalfield, which by that time had itself become part of urban areas, particularly the metropolitan boroughs, Birmingham. He might feel differently about his lack of which Birmingham is one, you are faced with a of objection to cross-county boundaries if he was choice. Going over the boundary from a metropolitan trying, for example, to represent part of the city of borough into a bit of a district in, say, Staffordshire, is Birmingham and a bit of Worcestershire or part of the pretty significant for the MP. It is not like crossing city of Birmingham and a bit of Staffordshire or London borough boundaries, where there are local Warwickshire. I think he would find that an extraordinarily authorities of equality, if I may put it like that, and difficult thing to do. That really is one of the main similar services. There is no comparison between the reasons why, for all the rough justice involved in some district councils in north Staffordshire and the unitary of the judgments that Boundary Commissions have authority of the city of Birmingham. Therefore, the had to make in the past, trying to abide by local Boundary Commission will be left with a dilemma authority boundaries is a common-sense thing to do, unless it gets more guidance. Does it contain the both for the MP and more importantly for the people existing boundary of the external areas of Birmingham, whom that MP represents. which includes Sutton Coldfield, and then split the wards, with all that that signifies—I see no alternative; Lord Rooker: I fully accept that, and that was made wards have been split in the past—or does it let the clear in one of my previous speeches: that the local external boundary go and give the MP some part of authority might be reluctant, if some issue comes up the metropolitan borough of Birmingham along with that transcends the boundaries, to get their MPs up to adjoining district councils? That is a pretty significant speed and briefed to lobby and kick in doors in decision, and I am not sure whether it should be left to Whitehall to put their case. At the same time they are the Boundary Commission. thinking, “Hang on, that MP represents part of the Because of the rigidity of the Bill with the figure of area that we are a bit negative about, and complaining 5 per cent, you get too wide a spread. I fully accept about”. So there could be an issue here—whether it is that that 5 per cent can go either way, and I would not a new air field or another infrastructure issue—that want 10 per cent to be the norm because that is where crosses boundaries; I fully accept that. On the other abuse would come in. You have to have some kind of hand, I accept there should not be a massive disparity constraint in this, but partly releasing the rigidity does between sizes of constituencies. The point is that there not mean a free-for-all elsewhere, and I think that that is no easy answer to this. This Bill provides an easy is probably where part of the impasse has come about answer because of its rigidity, but because of that it is in this respect. However, I do not think that there is unfair. any choice in the matter. The issue of the 10 per cent is important, but the The situation is different in different parts of England other point is that, if the Bill is allowed to go through simply because of the nature of the counties and the without any sort of compromise, the only discussion small districts. However, with the metropolitan counties, of these issues is actually here. Those discussions will 707 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 708 not be held in public inquiries because the citizens of of our debate on these amendments could be avoided this country are being denied the right to go to a if the Government were to concede on the principle of public inquiry to make the points, some of which I the 5 per cent—if they were to accept the 10 per cent have alluded to and some which others have. That is for which my noble friend asked or some flexibility the problem; if only there could at least be that safety above 5 per cent whereby some areas would apply valve so that some of these issues could be vented at a a 5 per cent arrangement as against others that constrained public inquiry. I am not in favour of would apply a 10 per cent arrangement. Only by that sending people from London around the country because kind of flexibility do we move away from the arguments that becomes open-ended. There could be a public that are being deployed during this debate. It is a inquiry on any constituency changes in a maximum of straitjacket. My noble friend Lord Grocott referred to 15 working days—three weeks; I guarantee that that rough justice. It is rough justice that arises only out of could be done. You put the constraints in place, limit a straitjacket that the Government have sought to the political parties so it cannot be abused, bring in introduce. genuine citizens and other bodies, including business I would like to know—some work must have been and the Church, and you could do it, but you have to done in government—how many county boundaries have that safety valve, otherwise the pent-up difficulties would be breached with a 5 per cent flexibility as that will arise at the next election will be on the heads against a 10 per cent one. If that margin is substantial, of the Liberal Democrats. surely that is an argument in favour of a 10 per cent I do not live in Birmingham; I live in a shire area flexibility. That question applies to how many London and I am not proposing that we cross the Shropshire and metropolitan district council boundaries are to be border boundaries because I would be in a spot of breached. The difference between a 5 per cent straitjacket bother there. I have found it remarkable that, in the and a 10 per cent one applies equally to the question past six months, watching stuff go through my door in of whether wards would be split within individual Ludlow from the Lib Dems, I have yet to see a single constituencies. Surely Ministers must be beginning to leaflet that hints that they are in coalition with the accept this following the intervention from the noble Tories in central government. It is disingenuous and Baroness, Lady Williams, today. She was absolutely unbelievable. As it hots up towards the election and blunt and said basically that we should move from the the boundary issue comes up, these things will come 5 per cent. Let us hope that in his winding-up speech back. I would rather that that did not happen, by the to this debate, the Minister will signal to us that the way. I would rather we get this right. I do not seek in Government are prepared to look at that particular advantage in this; I think there is a good case, as the issue, because I am sure it would help to move this Bill Leader said this afternoon. I heard the word “concession”, along. and I make no bones about that; there are concessions to be made. Let us get it out into the open so that we know where we are—the sooner the better, because I Lord Bach: My Lords, we have had an interesting want progress on this. I repeat, having proposed the debate on interesting subjects, and we look forward to amendment that would in effect have given flexibility hearing the Minister respond. The principle behind on the date for the referendum, that there is no problem this group of amendments matches that which motivates with the referendum being held on 5 May.My amendment the next amendment, Amendment 71A, in my name would not have stopped that; all it would have done and that of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer. was give the Government a backstop if things went The stringency of the Government’s proposals as we wrong. Little did I know when I said that back in late see it—the inflexibility of the rules set out in the Bill, November or early December that we would still be in the strict adherence to a tight mathematical formula Committee at the end of January. and the lack of discretion given to the boundary We do need to make progress, and we need that commissioners in carrying out their work—will have safety valve so that the only debate on constituency damaging effects on our system. changes, splitting wards and crossing boundaries is The Constitution Committee of your Lordships’ not held in the unelected part of our Parliament. That House reported on the proposed equalisation of is balmy when you think about it. All we are asking is constituencies in this Bill, and wrote: that the people get the opportunity, when the changes “Applying the new rules as to equalisation will necessitate the are proposed for their area, at least to come forward creation of constituencies crossing regional and county boundaries; and say, “I agree”, “I disagree”, “We have been trying in addition, many more constituencies than at present will cross to do this for years”, or “Thank heaven we are getting local authority boundaries. This has significant administrative and political consequences, in terms of such matters as electoral some changes”—at least to have the chance to say so administration and party political organisation. The pace of themselves and for it not just to be left here. change is unlikely to lessen such administrative and political challenges and, indeed, seems likely to make them more difficult to manage”. Lord Campbell-Savours: I intervene only following the intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Rennard. I It went on: am interested in the common ground to which the “The Political and Constitutional Reform Committee heard noble Lord, Lord Williamson of Horton, the noble evidence from Democratic Audit that the new rules as to equalisation Baronesses, Lady Williams of Crosby and Lady D’Souza, were being imposed ‘without any attempt to form a consensus’ and without the Government having first investigated what people and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of actually want from representation. There did not appear to be any Clashfern, referred last week. They all sought that evidence that the electorate considers equalisation to be significantly middle ground that we expect to arise out of the more important than, say, geographical, customary or traditional negotiations that will inevitably have to be held. Much boundaries”. 709 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 710

[LORD BACH] but the noble Lord is quite right: it contains remarkably The committee concluded: different elements of the make-up of our country. The “Pre-legislative scrutiny and public consultation would have truth is that, apart from now having a remarkably enabled a better assessment of whether the new rules as to good Member of Parliament, it also has a very strange equalisation are overly rigid”. mixture of the country within its confines. If this Bill It has come to be expected that those of your Lordships’ were to become law, we would have many more seats colleagues who sit on that committee—and I remind such as Oldham and Saddleworth than we do at the this Committee that they come from all parts of the moment because of the iron rule of numbers. In my House—are always entirely wise and sensible in their view, that would be a pity. It is not an appropriate type assessment. We certainly think so. of seat for this country. It is fine if we have one or two such seats, but to have many Oldham and Saddleworths would cause more difficulties than not. 5pm As far as these amendments are concerned, we on The Deputy Prime Minister has made it clear that it the Front Bench prefer the factors to guide boundary is the Government’s intention to retain wards as the redrawing contained in our Amendment 71A, but we building blocks of the new constituencies. In Select believe that these amendments are sensible and warrant— Committee evidence, the Deputy Prime Minister said, and I am sure will get—a proper response from the “we consulted with the boundary commissioners in great detail Minister. and they were unambiguous. We set the figure at 5 per cent because they said: ‘If you set it at any less than 5 per cent, we will Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: Can my noble not be able to use ward boundaries as the building blocks for our friend or the Minister tell me whether the sort of boundary review, and if you want us to do it by’—I forget the flexibility that the Leader of the House referred to exact date—‘October or December 2013, we must be able to use today would allow margins of flexibility on the final wards as the continued building blocks of constituency boundaries. number—that keeps reminding me of a book in which We can do that to within 5 per cent on either side of the the answer is 42—so that it would then be easier to threshold’”. have regard to local differences? I think my noble The very same Boundary Commissions have also friend Lord Rooker, whom I respect enormously and said—I am afraid in contradiction to what the right have worked with for years, may be able to take a honourable Deputy Prime Minister asserted: slightly more laid-back view on this issue than, for “The changes to the total number of constituencies, and the example, a Minister were he or she to dare to go to the tighter limits on the number of electors in each constituency, will boundary between Lancashire and Yorkshire. result in a complete redrawing of constituency boundaries ... The electoral parity target may require the Commissions to work with The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace electorate data below ward level in many cases”. of Tankerness): My Lords, Amendments 68 to 71 specify It may be that those two conclusions can be put more explicitly the way in which the Boundary together or that the Government feel a bit aggrieved at Commissions are to draw up new constituency having received incorrect advice, but these two pieces boundaries and take some discretion away from the of evidence cannot hide the fact that, on taking more Boundary Commissions. They provide that constituency time to assess the implication of the Government’s boundaries must be contained within existing county plans, the Boundary Commissions have been forced to boundaries and must not split local government wards change their assessment. The fact is that their belief is and propose limits on the number of local authority that wards will be split, and the notable academic, areas that constituencies can cross. With the exception Professor Ron Johnston, agrees. of Amendment 69 on wards, they appear to be directed Why does this matter and how much does it matter? at English local government structure only. I am not As has been said during the course of the debate, sure whether that was the intention or whether they wards are the building blocks of our constituency map were intended to apply to other parts of the United and have been regarded as such for a very long time Kingdom as well, but I am not going to nitpick over indeed. They, of course, vary in size across the United that because in moving the amendment the noble Kingdom—my noble friend Lord Rooker said that a Lord, Lord Snape, indicated that they were important few minutes ago—most starkly between urban centres and that has been reflected in the debate that we have such as Birmingham, which has always had large had. wards, and rural villages. Wards form the basis of The Bill provides for the Boundary Commission to community representation. Local councillors represent take into account local government boundaries within particular wards and clusters of wards are joined the range of flexibility provided by the Bill. Projections together to make up parliamentary seats. Local political indicate that with that flexibility it would be possible parties and the key grass-root activity of leafleting to have constituencies varying from 72,000 to 79,000 are organised at ward level. The noble Lord, Lord electors. The Bill’s provisions represent a rebalancing Rennard, made it clear in his speech that wards have of the rules in existing legislation; namely, the equality advantages for, among others, political parties fighting in the weight of a vote and the flexibility to recognise elections. local factors. We believe that the existing legalisation The problem is that the proposals contained in the results in unclear and potentially contradictory sets of Bill paint a fragmented and disjointed picture of rules. Indeed, the Boundary Commission for England representation. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made an has said that each rule taken on its own is quite clear interesting comment about the present seat of Oldham but it is required to apply all the rules and its experience, and Saddleworth. Having visited it only briefly, I do and that of its predecessors, is that there is often not want to sound as though I am some expert on it, conflict between them. 711 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 712

What is proposed in the Bill with regard to Rules 2 councils and Northampton county council, which and 4 is to have a hierarchy, as was said in one of the overrode both the two district councils. So it would exchanges. It is because of this rebalancing that we not be three separate district councils—it would be a have given precedence to the size of electorate and the county council and district councils within the same geographical area of each constituency over other county, as far as I know Northampton. factors in Rule 5, such as local government boundaries. I believe these other factors are important, and that is Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I defer to the noble why we have provided the Boundary Commissions Lord’s superior knowledge of the English local with the flexibility to consider them. I emphasise to government system. In the case of Mr Mundell, it is the noble Lord, Lord Haworth, that it is possible for three unitary council areas. The constituency which I the Boundary Commission to have regard to local ties. used to have the privilege to represent in Shetland is The Boundary Commissions have regard within a one of those preserved by this Bill and it had two local 10 per cent band of the UK electorate quota between authority areas within it. the largest and smallest constituency. We believe that I recognise the point made by the noble Lord, Lord the provisions of the Bill represent a reasonable balance Snape, about the relationship which individual Members between these factors and ensure a system where votes of Parliament have with their local authorities. There have equal value throughout the United Kingdom. are numerous cases where Members of Parliament In response to a point made by the noble Lord, represent more than one local authority area. No one Lord Dubs, there is nothing in the Bill or in the is suggesting that any of those who fall into that Boundary Commission rules at the moment to move category do not do their job on behalf of their constituents individual electors from one local authority area to as well as those MPs who only have only one local another. But as is the case at the moment, some authority within their constituency. I note in passing constituencies cross London borough boundaries. In that Mr Mundell increased his majority at the 2010 election fact, 19 out of 32 London borough boundaries are crossed by 1.9 per cent. Without causing any difficulties with by a constituency boundary. That does not transfer my coalition partners, that, for a Scottish Conservative the individual elector within that local authority area. in the 2010 election, was quite an achievement. It is important, too, to look at this from the perspective Lord Dubs: I may not have been clear. I was referring of the elector. With regard to “one vote, one value”, to a situation where a council estate was owned by one the electors are only in one local government area with local authority and part of that council estate was in a one Member of Parliament. We should not necessarily different parliamentary constituency and borough. It be looking to the administrative convenience of Members was an anomaly in terms of both borough and of Parliament at the expense of the value of votes for parliamentary boundaries. the individual elector. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am grateful for that clarification. As I indicated, under the existing rules, 5.15 pm 19 out of 32 London borough boundaries are crossed An important point has been made in this debate by a constituency boundary. My noble friend Lord about wards. Numerous contributors—the noble Baroness, Eccles also reflected on the fact that boundaries are Lady Liddell of Coatdyke, the noble Lords, Lord crossed under the existing rules. My information is Davies and Lord Rooker, my noble friend Lord Rennard, that 16 out of 35 shire counties are crossed by a and others—have emphasised the importance of wards. constituency boundary and 31 out of 40 unitary I am grateful to those who tabled these amendments boundaries. In its fifth report the Boundary Commission for raising this issue. The Government recognise that noted that in the fourth review, 13 constituencies wards can be useful building blocks for constituencies, which crossed metropolitan district boundaries whereas as the noble Lord, Lord Bach, noted when he quoted in the review which took effect in 2010, 22 constituencies the evidence to the Constitution Committee of my did so. And whereas in the previous review right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister. 170 constituencies had crossed non-metropolitan district However, to ensure the fairest constituencies possible, boundaries, the recommendations for the fifth review it is inevitable that even ward boundaries may have to included 165 which did so. be crossed on some occasions. The noble Lord, Lord In Scotland, where I accept there are other issues Rooker, and my noble friend Lord Rennard illustrated with regard to wards because of the multi-Member the different size of wards in Birmingham compared nature of the local authority wards, there is one to many other parts of England. We believe these constituency—that of my honourable friend Mr Mundell, details should be a matter for the Boundary Commissions, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State at the which may use the wards if they see fit. The Bill does Scotland Office—which covers parts of three council nothing to stop them doing that. In fact, the secretary areas. His constituency of Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale to the Boundary Commission for England confirmed and Tweeddale covers the council areas of Dumfries that the provisions of the Bill make it possible for and Galloway, Scottish Borders and South Lanarkshire. wards to be used as a building block for constituencies This is an important point. My noble friend Lord in most, if not all, cases in England. Naseby mentioned the fact that he had at one stage represented three local authority areas. Lord Howarth of Newport: I would be very grateful if the Minister could give the House his response to Lord Bach: I am sorry the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, the following observation made by Dr Lewis Baston in is not in his place. I should have asked him at the time. Democratic Audit: January 2011 on this issue of the The three he mentioned would have been two district splitting of wards: 713 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 714

[LORD HOWARTH OF NEWPORT] far he has not been too successful, so he had better “It is probably impossible to implement a 5 per cent rule stay where he is to ensure that the mood of your without splitting wards between constituencies, something which Lordships’ House does not change. the Boundary Commissions currently avoid doing because of the potential for voter confusion and highly artificial constituency I will refer in closing this debate to some of the boundaries, not to mention causing headaches for the organisation contributions that have been made from both sides, all of all political parties. … The worst-affected areas are those of which have been relevant. My noble friend Lord where wards have large electorates, such as the English metropolitan Kennedy gave us the benefit of his knowledge of boroughs, most of Scotland and some unitary authorities and London boroughs. A rigid 10 per cent rule might still involve a Derbyshire, pointing out that it would be difficult to few isolated cases of ward-splitting, but it is likely to be very retain parliamentary seats in Derbyshire under the uncommon in comparison with a 5 per cent rule”. 5 per cent rule and that it might be necessary to cross Is there not a lot of very good sense in that? county boundaries. He mentioned High Peak and Greater Manchester. There is some affinity between Lord Wallace of Tankerness: As my noble friend the two, in that many commuters travel between them, Lord Rennard said, there is no limit to the number of but that is about it; from a social and economic point special cases. If we move without any other limitation of view, there is not a great deal to unite them. He also to a 20 per cent band rather than a 10 per cent band, emphasised the importance of the names of seats. we are moving away from the basic principle of equal My noble friend Lord Dubs correctly pointed out value. Broadly speaking, we have followed the provisions that there are anomalies under the present system, to of the 1986 Act with regard to local authority boundaries, which the Minister also referred. No one says that the and while we are keen to avoid being too prescriptive present system is perfect—it cannot be—but I refer on this issue, there may be some merit in placing a without quoting directly to the committee in the other discretionary consideration of wards in the Bill. We place, which said that there would be a great many certainly want to consider further the elements of more anomalies unless we looked in detail particularly these amendments that concern the use of wards. at the 5 per cent rule. Other amendments have been tabled with regard to My noble friend Lady Liddell of Coatdyke reminded wards by the noble Lords, Lord Lipsey and Lord us of the importance of the relationship between Foulkes, and my noble friends Lord Rennard and elected Members. Although, to paraphrase what the Lord Tyler. We want to consider, therefore, the use of Minister said, legislation should not necessarily be wards and to bring back a fully considered response about the administrative convenience of Members of on that on Report since it is an important point. On Parliament, it should not be about exacerbating the that basis, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his differences between them either. The greater the number amendment. of district councils involved on a particular issue, the greater the number of Members of Parliament. That is Lord Davies of Stamford: Before the noble Lord sits regardless of party. It has been known for Members of down, will he recognise that there will be considerable the other place of the same party to disagree about pleasure in many parts of the House at what he has constituency matters. I know that such a thing would just said about the recognition of the importance of never occur among the Liberal Democrats, but I suspect wards? On a first reading of this Bill, it looked rather that the Conservatives are a bit more like us and are strange that other criteria were mentioned in Clause 11(5), more inclined occasionally to fall out. such as local authority boundaries and European constituencies, but there was no explicit mention of My noble friend Lord Haworth referred to a particular wards. What he has just said about considering making constituency difficulty in London and spoke of giving a specific mention will go a long way to reassuring a evidence with some trepidation at a public inquiry. We lot of people who are concerned with this point. are anxious to preserve the principle of public inquiries on boundary alterations. Any confrontation between Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am grateful for those him and Ivor Stanbrook QC would lead to only one reassuring remarks from the noble Lord. Not only do winner—you do not need the letters QC after your wards provide possibilities as building blocks, but name to be able to act as an advocate in such a way as their very nature means that local ties are cemented I know that my noble friend does. through them. My noble friend Lord Bilston gave us the benefit of his 40 years of distinguished service at various levels in Lord Snape: This has been an interesting debate. the Black Country. He quoted Omar Khayyam. I Fourteen noble Lords, including those on the Front cannot compete with that. I suspect that the words Benches, have participated and I will ensure that my that he quoted so movingly were not aimed at Boundary closing remarks guarantee that the debate is concluded Commissions or boundary alterations, but they were in less than two hours. That gives the lie to those certainly appropriate in the context of this debate. He outside who say that none of this debate has been reminded us of the long-standing feeling of hurt when particularly relevant and that much of it, if not all of electors are transferred from one district to another. it, has been designed merely to hold up the Government’s In my former constituency in West Bromwich, we had legislation. That is not the case and I am sure that I some difficulty in 1974 in deciding the name of the speak for noble Lords on all sides of the House in new borough. Even now, 40 years on, the borough of thanking the Minister for the way in which he has just Sandwell is not immediately recognised throughout responded. If he could persuade his colleague, the the United Kingdom. You do not often hear the noble Lord, Lord McNally, to adopt the same emollient people who lived in the former authorities that formed tone, we might have two nice Ministers responding. So the borough of Sandwell saying in response to a 715 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 716 question as to where they live: “Well, actually, I live in he said. Given that, and the amiable nature of the Sandwell”. I was a fairly new Member of the other debate—and the fact that no time has been wasted—I place when the borough was created. I was told that beg leave to withdraw the amendment. people in Smethwick, which formed part of that borough, having been transferred to the new constituency of Amendment 68 withdrawn. Warley, which they did not particularly recognise, were certainly not going to have imposed on them Amendments 69 to 71 not moved. the name West Bromwich, although that seemed to me as an outsider at the time to be the most sensible name for the new borough. I suspect that Amendment 71A there will be many difficulties and arguments such as Moved by Lord Falconer of Thoroton that unless the Government see sense on the 5 per cent deviation rule. 71A: Clause 11, page 9, leave out lines 31 to 33 and insert— My noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford at least “(2) In England— provoked an intervention from the other side of the (a) each constituency shall be wholly in one of the electoral regions specified in Schedule 1 to the European Chamber when he pointed out that none had been Parliamentary Elections Act 2002; made until he got to his feet. He emphasised the (b) no district or borough ward shall be included in more importance of the ward structure, as, to be fair, did than one constituency; the Minister in his reply. One participant from the (c) the Boundary Commission should, where practicable, other side was the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, who have regard to the boundaries of counties and London was rather more emollient on this occasion than he boroughs and in any case no constituency shall include has sometimes been in the past in saying that the whole or part of more than two counties or London there should be discussion rather than hard-and-fast boroughs. rules. He rather skated over the fact that there will be (3) In Northern Ireland, no local authority ward shall be many more such anomalies unless, I repeat, the 5 per included in more than one constituency. cent deviation rule is eased. He implied, although he (4) In Wales— did not say so in as many words, that just a few (a) no unitary authority ward shall be included in more than more constituencies would cross local authority one constituency; boundaries under the legislation. That was not the (b) the Boundary Commission should, where practicable, view of the committee in the other place or of have regard to the boundaries of unitary authorities, and organisations that wish to defend the integrity of in any case no constituency shall include the whole or counties such as Cornwall. I readily accede to the part of more than two unitary authorities. experience and knowledge of constituencies of the (5) In Scotland, regard shall be had to local authority ward noble Lord, Lord Rennard—it was until fairly boundaries.” recently impossible to conceive of a by-election taking place without a figure lurking in the Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, the amendment background with a coy and retiring smile, which would insert a number of additional factors for the invariably belonged to the noble Lord—but I hope Boundary Commissions to take into account when that he will recognise that, unless some changes are drawing constituencies in the four parts of the United made to the Bill, the anomalies that have been raised Kingdom. It in effect represents the opposition Front on both sides of the Committee will be perpetuated. Bench’s conclusions in relation to the issues discussed Indeed, my noble friend Lord Lipsey put his finger on under the previous group of amendments. the matter in his brief intervention, saying that At present, the new rules for drawing constituency under the legislation only nine out of 46 counties boundaries proposed by the Bill are dominated by the would have their boundaries respected. That is an overriding requirement for every constituency, with a anomaly; it is a significant change, which the Government few exceptions, to fall within the margins of 5 per cent should look at. either side of a new UK-wide electoral quota. The My noble friend Lord Rooker entertained us with intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, in stories about Sutton Coldfield joining Birmingham. relation to the 5 per cent/10 per cent issue was interesting Unfortunately, the former Member of Parliament for and instructive, and I strongly recommend that noble Sutton Coldfield, the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, was Lords read it tomorrow. not present, otherwise we might have seen a discussion, Although Rule 5 in Clause 11 lists a number of if not a minor spat, between the two of them. My further factors which the Boundary Commissions may noble friend and I were referred to by the British press also take into account when drawing constituencies, in the context of some of the debates last week as a they are subordinate to the numerical prerequisite. In couple of ageing lefties. I suppose that we ought to be practice, that means, as we have just discussed, that the suitably grateful that, for once, the British press got Boundary Commissions have very limited scope to something half right. My noble friend Lord Campbell- take proper account of those other considerations. Savours said that we have to move on the 5 per cent The only general rule that sits above the iron law of deviation rule, as did my noble friend on the Front the electoral quota is the stipulation that each constituency Bench, who said that constituencies would otherwise shall be wholly within one of the four parts of the become fragmented and disjointed. United Kingdom. That at least is recognition of the I was grateful for the tenor in which the noble and fact that there are certain political and administrative learned Lord, Lord Wallace, responded. These are boundaries which it would be unwise to cross in matters to which we shall have to return on Report, as pursuit of mathematical equality. We believe that that 717 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 718

[LORD FALCONER OF THOROTON] Professor Ron Johnston emphasised to the Political recognition does not go far enough and that the Bill and Constitutional Reform Committee when it took should allow for greater sensitivity and flexibility evidence on the Bill. He said: when it comes to dealing with the administrative units “The issue is whether it is important particularly for administrators within, as well as between, the four parts of the United and for parties and MPs, and I am sure it is, because the fewer Kingdom. local authorities you have to deal with the better”. He said that a rule contained in the Bill referring to 5.30 pm England, Your Lordships heard in the previous debate that “only includes some of the types of local authorities. It has gone back to the old wording of the previous Bill and only the the Government’s intention in crafting these proposed boundaries of counties and London boroughs shall be taken new rules in their current form is to attain as great an regard of. Why not take regard of the unitary authorities as well? electoral equality between seats as possible without Why not take regard of the metropolitan boroughs or principal splitting wards, which are the building blocks of authorities? It seems to me that the Bill is deficient there and I parliamentary constituencies. The Deputy Prime Minister, wonder if that clause was not written in haste simply taking Nick Clegg, as was quoted earlier, expressed that view something from a previous Bill and it would be better to reconsider in oral evidence to our Constitution Committee and that. Wherever possible give an MP as few local authorities to deal with as possible”. on the Floor of the other place when he was being asked Questions in his Question Time. We have also These administrative confusions would also create heard that the Bill will fail to deliver the objective that significant problems for political parties at a structural the Deputy Prime Minister has named—that wards level, especially in the case of the Conservative and should be the building blocks. Independent electoral Labour parties, which are organised on a constituency experts and the heads of the four Boundary Commissions and ward basis. Professor Johnston informed the Select have all made it clear that to meet the proposed Committee that one academic study had shown that, numerical target, individual wards will almost certainly “when a ward was split a lot of the ward activists drifted away. need to be divided. Noble Lords heard the quote from They had lost their rationale to represent this place, this place no the four heads of the Boundary Commissions. longer existed, it was in two parts and political activity declined”. I do not think that this is what any of us wish to see. As the conclusion of the Political and Constitutional The overall stated purpose of these Bills is to revive Reform Committee of the other place has already trust in politics, not reduce interest in politics. As it been quoted I shall quote only the last sentence: stands, this Bill is not a formula for increasing political “The electoral parity target may require the Commissions to activism and public engagement; it appears to be a work with electorate data below ward level in many cases”. recipe for undermining it. An aspect of the Bill that That would be a major change to the established has not come under enough attention is the extent to pattern of political representation in England in particular, which political parties at grass-roots level will be where at present no wards are divided between undermined by the boundary reforms set to be unleashed constituencies. The secretaries of the four Boundary by these new rules. In particular, the requirement to Commissions also told the Select Committee: have boundary reviews on the basis of the inflexible “The electoral parity target will result in many constituencies new rules every Parliament will produce much greater crossing local authority boundaries. Early modelling suggests disruption than we have been used to. To quote the that in Scotland between 15 and 20 constituencies (of 50), and in secretaries to the Boundary Commissions—I promise Wales between 23 and 28 constituencies (of 30), would cross a local authority boundary”. for the final time: They also said that, “Strict electoral parity, and a fixed total number of constituencies, will result in frequent constituency redesign”. “the application of the electoral parity target is likely to result in many communities feeling that they are being divided between That will mean very great organisational challenges constituencies”. for local party machines which, in the end, are run by The Government have been generally dismissive volunteers. Something that we may have learnt over when concerns about split wards and crossed local the 13 years in government was that reorganisations of authority boundaries were raised in the other place. state providers meant that there was a focus on the They said that people would not care if their ward was reorganisation and not a focus on the provision of the split between different parliamentary seats and that it central purpose of those organisations. did not matter if council borders were crossed. I am Amendment 71A is aimed at providing some solidity absolutely sure that nobody is talking about this at the to the boundary review process—a better balance to moment; it is not an issue that has grasped the public. the process for drawing constituencies, and a greater But that does not mean that people would not notice understanding about the potentially damaging knock-on the change or that it would not have negative consequences effect of the rigidly mathematical framework to which once the change arose. Split wards would give rise to the Government currently adhere—but does it in such confusion, at least among members of the public who a way as to accept the principle that there needs to be live in them, with their MP being in one place and much greater mathematical consistency between their councillor in another. Including parts of two or constituencies. The Bill is right to stipulate that three local authority districts in a single parliamentary parliamentary constituencies should not cross national constituency would surely make life more difficult for borders, and we do not propose to touch that rule, but a Member of Parliament and undermine the service we do propose to bolster it with a further rule that says that he or she is able to provide to constituents, as my that constituencies should not cross the electoral regions noble friend Lady Smith of Basildon, recounted to the relating to the European Parliament. The Bill itself House last week. This was the point that psephologist suggests that the Boundary Commission should take 719 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 720 those regions into account. We would go a bit further, as my noble and learned friend said—about trying to in a sensible move that would give future boundary reduce the public’s confusion over who their elected reviews a stable framework within which the processes representatives are or about keeping to a minimum the could unfold. number of local authorities or health boards that MPs The other elements of our amendment would provide have to deal with. It is also vital in relation to political a clearer requirement that administrative units and party organisations. Political parties are absolutely boundaries in the four parts of the United Kingdom, essential to democracy. When I go around in seminars in particular the ward boundaries in England, Wales organised by the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, and Northern Ireland, should be respected and given I explain to new democracies in eastern Europe and proper account when parliamentary constituencies are north Africa—I have been to Macedonia and to Egypt being created. I very much hope that the Government to talk about this—the importance of having active will treat these amendments in the spirit in which they political parties with good organisation. are addressed—namely, recognising the need for greater The experience in Scotland has been that, because numerical equality but, equally, trying to build on the in both Ayrshire and Edinburgh, the two areas that I importance of communities and to ensure that political know best from a constituency point of view, we have activism and focus is on the things that really matter to ended up having different boundaries for the Scottish the people that politicians are supposed to serve. Parliament and the UK Parliament—the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, was lucky in this, because Lord Davies of Stamford: I congratulate my noble Orkney and Shetland have been given special treatment and learned friend. His amendment has achieved a on so many occasions—great difficulties have been very elegant solution to the problem that we were caused in terms of party organisation. It really has concerned with under the last amendment, and it is a confused people and made things more difficult. very important step forward. If this amendment were The kinds of things that are difficult are, for example, passed, would he agree that we would still need to look fundraising activities. As my noble and learned friend very carefully at the 5 per cent rule and replace it with Lord Falconer said, political parties are run by volunteers. the 10 per cent rule? If that were not done, the Boundary When you get them in, they are not paid in most cases, Commission could not have regard to the criteria that apart from national organisers, but they are the ones my noble and learned friend rightly wants it to have organising the coffee mornings. At this time of year, regard to, because it would conflict with the very we should perhaps think as well of the Burns suppers narrow 5 per cent rule? that are taking place to raise money. There are Labour Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I agree with the last Party Burns suppers around the whole of Scotland at point from my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford. the moment. All those kinds of activities are much Increasing the figure to 10 per cent would make it more difficult if you have different party structures. If much easier as a matter of practicality to do what the you have to have a ward structure or a local liaison amendment would do, and the independent research group for another party organisation, as we have in that has been done by bodies such as Democratic Scotland—we have a CLP and a regional party Audit also suggests that that 10 per cent flexibility structure—it makes things very difficult. People can does not lead to unacceptable differences between spend hour after hour organising just meetings and constituencies that might be said to favour one party minutes for meetings. They are trying to get things over another. We can achieve the purpose that the organised within their party structures rather than coalition sought to achieve and preserve communities doing the fundraising. in a way that most contributes to effective political Parties should also be involved in political education. activity. We should be having much more political education I hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord run by the parties, getting young people in and getting Wallace of Tankerness, who will be replying to this them to understand what democracy is about, as well because he is completely alone on the Front Bench out as what our parties are doing. It is therefore vital that of the team dealing with this, takes the amendment in we should not strangle or snuff out this voluntary the spirit in which it is offered and gives us a favourable political activity by a complex overlapping of boundaries. response. That is why I hope that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, will be as sympathetic to the proposal Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I want to in this amendment as he was to the previous one. make a brief intervention, encouraged by the very positive response from the noble and learned Lord, 5.45 pm Lord Wallace of Tankerness, to the previous debate. Lord Grocott: My Lords, I am not sure whether my We are talking about very much the same subject here. noble and learned friend’s amendment is the best way I make this intervention on one issue only: the question to encapsulate the basic philosophy of this part of the of political party organisation. This is, perhaps, a Bill, as far as this side of the House is concerned. It direct plea to the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, who I has to be acknowledged that that philosophy is very know is an expert on this. I think that he told us on different from the philosophy of the side opposite. one occasion that he became secretary of his local However, the amendment is certainly an attempt to do ward party at the age of seven. He has moved onwards what is, surely, consistent with our philosophy, which and upwards ever since. is that the best way of determining constituency When we are talking about trying to get boundaries boundaries is broadly to follow how it is done at as coterminous as possible, we are not just talking present. That is to say that it should be on the basis of about community cohesion—although that is important, guidelines—and they are guidelines—within which a 721 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 722

[LORD GROCOTT] last chance to have anything sensible to say about that. Boundary Commission, in public consultation with To me, that is an indictment of the approach that the local people, determines what the boundaries should Government are taking, which is—I know that they be. To me, that is a flexible way of determining boundaries will deny this and find ways of explaining it—essentially while totally accepting that one of the key factors to end local community involvement within flexible ought to be, as the Government keep insisting, having rules, not within rigid rules, to determine local constituency as close to equality as we sensibly can get in the boundaries. I plead for more flexibility. electorate in each constituency. Essentially, however, it I will not trespass too far on to other legislation, is a bottom-up system with flexibility. but when I thought about it I realised that this desire I find all this pretty astonishing. The Liberal Democrats to make all the rough edges smooth, to apply a straitjacket and the Conservatives are, I acknowledge, in their to our constitution and to make it all work according different ways normally on the same rhetorical side, at to rigid rules seems to be an almost pervading view of least in these arguments, and say that they do not the Government in a lot of the constitutional legislation agree with top-down solutions. How many times have that they are bringing forward. I do not know whether I heard that on other subjects, not least the health that goes right across government. In fairness, the service at the moment? The Liberals pride themselves Liberals have been quite consistent about this, but we on localism. A great chunk of the coalition document are now saying that constituency boundaries should is about the importance of localism and local communities. be very rigidly drawn and shortly we will be told the dates of all future general elections—presumably until the sun swallows up our planet. Every five years there Lord Tyler: My Lords, how does the noble Lord, will be a general election, come hell or high water, on a Lord Grocott, manage to suggest that the amendment precise date. There will be no flexibility. I will not go to which he is speaking is not a top-down solution and into those arguments, but, my word, I will want to is not prescriptive, if he looks at its proposed sub- develop them when we reach the Bill about fixing the paragraph (2)(b)? term of Parliaments. I think that I am right in saying that the Liberal Lord Grocott: What, that, Democrats are very keen on us having a written “no district or borough ward shall be included in more than one constitution, which will lay all these things out and, of constituency”? course, lead to the interpretation of the rules being In my book, that comes under the great heading of adjudicated on by the courts. The beauty of a lot of common sense. I recommend that to the Committee as our electoral and constitutional arrangements—this being splendid. It is not exactly severely top-down and certainly applies to the drawing of constituency not nearly as top-down as what is in the Bill, where, boundaries—is that they have been flexible. They apply irrespective of boundaries, the history of communities, the greatest principle that you can apply in any mountain ranges or rivers—if we had any deserts, constitution, which is the principle of common sense. they would no doubt be subdivided into several They allow for rough edges not to be smoothed out. constituencies—there is what I call a top-down solution, This is particularly true in the case of the four nations which aims simply at precise numerical conclusions. that are the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. There is no doubt about where I think the We all know that it is a slightly unusual arrangement, determinations of our boundaries should come from. whereby one of the four countries totally dominates It is precisely as I have described. However, an essential all the others numerically, but there are all sorts of ingredient of it—we are not yet there in the Bill and I accommodations, one of which we shall come to later, am certainly not going to talk about it now—is the in respect of Wales, which is severely affected by crucial importance of local inquiries in which local the Bill. people can participate. I have sat through nearly all I cannot write a constitutional doctrine explaining our proceedings on the Bill and, as ever, my noble how the British constitution operates in relation to the friend Lord Rooker has encapsulated why we are four constituent parts of the United Kingdom, but I where we are. As he rightly said, it is the certain can say that it has worked pretty well, that people are knowledge that we are not going to have these local pretty free within it and that they understand the inquiries that makes this Committee stage so important. system in which they operate. If there are a few This is the only point at which sensible local opinion anomalies here and there, so be it. I fear that what we can be expressed at a national level. are seeing in the Bill in relation to constituencies and I am sure that some will correctly and energetically constituency boundaries is yet another step along the argue that the views of local people should be taken road. I may be alone in this; I have been called a into account. I dare say that the noble Lord, Lord constitutional conservative by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, will do so when we come to the debates on the McNally, who, sadly, is not here. If that means someone county boundaries in Cornwall. Like everyone else in who believes in common sense in the operation of the this House, I have been getting lots of e-mails and constitution, then I plead guilty. My noble friend’s messages from people in Cornwall and there is almost amendment passes the test of common sense for me. It an air of desperation in them. I was prompted to think allows flexibility locally and that is why I support it. that by the comment of my noble friend Lord Rooker that this was essentially the local inquiry going on Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I noticed now, precisely because the people of Cornwall know that the Minister did not respond to the question that perfectly well that, if we decide in Committee that I asked him and my noble friend Lord Bach about county boundaries will be ignored, this will be their whether the flexibility regarding numbers that has 723 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 724 already been determined by your Lordships’ House, being here and debating this, when I would very much with the decision on the Isle of Wight, will be allowed like to go home, because the Government have conceded to affect the number referred to by the Leader of the that local people could do the job that we are attempting House, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, as “a nice, to do here. I am surprised, although I intend no round figure”. It is important that we should know discourtesy to the Minister, that the Liberal Democrats that when we are debating different views about the are giving up the opportunity that, in our experience, terms on which new constituency boundaries will be they have taken so often in the past to make a very full drawn. presentation at a public inquiry into constituency boundaries at local level. If we want an active democracy, I make the passing comment, in light of my experience people need to feel that they are part of the system in local government, that it is not only for MPs to be that creates the constituencies and determines boundaries. able to work with the local authorities in their area. The Bill is going in absolutely the opposite direction. My noble friend Lady Henig, who was on Lancashire County Council at the same time as I was, will recollect I shall sit down now, but I shall come back to this that there were many occasions when we sought to subject in other parts of the Bill. The Minister may go influence our Members of Parliament serving Lancashire. away and think that my speeches are not necessary, There could have been difficulties had the boundaries but he could stop them at any point by accepting that of those constituencies crossed county boundaries. On the people in the areas that I have referred to and lived the whole, we had a good working relationship, to the in—Leicestershire, Lancashire, Staffordshire, Shropshire, point where, on one unique occasion, Dame Elaine Wales and London—can make their own case, because Kellett-Bowman lobbied me to find a way around the this is not the place where that ought to be done. ban by her right honourable friend the Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, on our giving children free school 6pm milk. That remains a unique memory for me. Dame Lord Graham of Edmonton: I am tempted to enter Elaine Kellett-Bowman was very concerned at that this debate because the premise that the constituency time about EU milk subsidies. is important has a slight flaw. Every constituency has a The sense of locality among political activists is number of wards. I first became a councillor 50 years important. There is a mistaken belief out there in the ago this year, and my experience is that the best country that the political parties have thousands and discussions that I have taken part in have been with 10, thousands of political activists who ought to knock 12 or 15 people in someone’s house. We did not on their door every time there is an election. If we can masquerade; we were proud to say that we were a do anything during the passage of the Bill to explain ward and we dealt with the issue. Every issue in a that it ain’t necessarily so, it would be a good thing. I locality—a constituency—has a resonance in a part of remember knocking on the door of one Labour supporter the constituency, whether it is a road pattern, a in a county council election and being told, “I have development, a school or the closure or opening of been waiting 10 years for someone from the party to something. The ward level is very important. knock on my door”. I said, “That is because you, as a Having taken part in this debate and listened to party supporter, are not out knocking on doors”. He colleagues, I congratulate them on bringing their said, “What do you mean?”. I said, “Tonight, there are experience here and on not being put off by the about 18 people out”. This was in what was then the shaming fact that, as I detect, that experience is seen in borough of Preston. The public will not understand some places as irrelevant. We have the opportunity the debate about the importance of place in terms of here to remind the Minister—rub it into him, if you political activists, but your Lordships will, from experience. like, without being offensive—that there are people out in the field who will be affected by this. The sense of place and of belonging is critical. In The Minister and his colleagues have made great my experience, having lived in London, Shropshire, play of the big society and localism. However, in this Staffordshire, Lancashire and Leicestershire—I was Bill they are not paying attention at all; democracy born in Leicestershire—the sense of place in the major grows and is stimulated by events and individuals. We conurbations is less, particularly since the abolition of could all in this Chamber look back on where we the GLC, although I found, when talking to schoolchildren made a big move on to a council, into its leadership, there, that the sense of place of West Bromwich overrode into Parliament and so on, but it all stems back to a the new title of Sandwell. The sense of place is critical handful of people who represented the Labour Party, in building political interest, activism and co-operation the Tory Party or the Liberal Democrat party, not in a around a community, not only within the parties but big way but in a small way—and that is the way they between the parties. The sense of place matters and in want it. Those of us who have an ambition to serve at that context, and because of my previous experience—this a higher level have the opportunity to do so, and is a former interest—as leader of the Association of everyone is here only because they have given service County Councils for England and Wales, I have to say to their party in one way or another. Thousands of that certain parts of the country, such as Wales and people serve the democratic principle from a very low Lancashire, have a very strong sense of place. base. My noble friend Lord Grocott made the point that I say simply to Members opposite—I cannot say this is the only opportunity to debate these issues, that I am replying to what they have said because I because the Bill deprives local communities of the have not heard what they have said, except the Minister— opportunity to put their case. As somebody who has that they ought to pay serious attention to the impact attended most of our proceedings on the Bill, I feel of the Bill at the local level if it is carried out, because bitterly resentful that I am accused of filibustering for it will damage our democracy. 725 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 726

[LORD GRAHAM OF EDMONTON] frequent boundary reviews, within the straitjacket of We all struggle, not just within the Labour Party numerical equality that the Government are designing, but in all parties, to maintain democracy. Issues come might work once or even a second time, but I fancy up that affect the constituency, and then you get local that after the 2018 boundary review the people of this headlines and so on. So far as I am concerned, though, country will say, “This won’t do”. I very much doubt the Edmonton Labour Party that I served, and still that the system will survive, should it be legislated, and have great connections with, has gone through a series we will do our best to persuade the Government that it of changes in its organisation. From having eight is not, after all, a very good idea. wards it is now down to four because of the change in The Government ought to understand that themselves. the demographic profile of the constituency. It is that As my noble friend Lord Graham of Edmonton just level, around someone’s table in someone’s house or in mentioned, the Government make much play of localism a back room, that I am talking about. Last Saturday I and the big society, but how can you seriously advocate went along to the annual meeting of the Edmonton the virtues of those things if at the same time you Co-operative Party, an organisation that is affiliated design your political structures to inhibit and distort with the Labour Party. There were 20 people there, localism and disregard people’s own sense of where serious players in the political game. They might not they take their place within society? pull many strings or be able to affect a lot, but there were 20 of them on a Saturday morning, from 11 o’clock If the Government think that these considerations to past 1 o’clock, who came along and were moved to are too sentimental or imprecise, I appeal to them at discuss the issues that affected them. least to consider the practicalities of the working I support the amendment. I hope the Minister is relationships between MPs and elected members of able to say something that will be helpful to the mover local authorities. My noble friend Lady Farrington of the amendment, because unless there is a change to wisely advised the Government to look at this from the policy of the parties opposite—in general, but the point of view of local authorities. The reality is particularly on the Bill—we are going to be worse off that local authorities take decisions overwhelmingly in the future than we have been in the past. within a context of policy made by central government—of legislation and policy emanating from Whitehall and Westminster. Unfortunately, we have a Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, every noble highly centralised system of government in this country. Lord who has so far spoken in this debate, and indeed Indeed, until we have radical decentralisation and in the debate on the previous group of amendments, greater autonomy for local government in this country, has put forward the view that it is highly desirable that we will continue to need more MPs. parliamentary constituencies are aligned as far as possible with local authority boundaries. That is partly because so much policy-making and The only noble Lord who has demurred from that legislation comes from the two Houses of this Parliament; to any extent is the Minister, the noble and learned therefore you need an adequate number of Members Lord, Lord Wallace. He did not deny that, all other of the other place to do justice to the policy-making things being equal, it would be desirable, but unfortunately and legislation. It is also partly because local authorities, he makes the factor of numerical equality between rather than being free, as they ought to be, to get on constituencies paramount. He therefore spoke of there and do their work on behalf of their local communities, being a conflict of factors with which the Boundary must endlessly look to the centre for authorisation and Commission is obliged to wrestle. I would not put it in make representations to the centre to see whether they those terms; I would say that there is a tension between can persuade officials and Ministers to modify their a variety of legitimate factors—numerical equality, policies so that they make more sense for their local community, history, geography, and of course alignment concerns. Key intermediaries in that process of frequent with local authority boundaries. The Boundary negotiation between local and central government are Commission’s task is to do its best to reconcile those local Members of Parliament. It is therefore very factors to arrive at a judgment that holds them in an important, in practical working terms, that Members appropriate balance, as my noble friend Lord Grocott of Parliament have a satisfactory operational relationship stressed, in consultation with local people. The present with their colleagues and counterparts in local authorities. system is a good one, and it seems reckless to upset it Equally, it is very important that elected members in this way. and officers of local authorities know to which Member Local authority areas, like constituencies, ought to of Parliament they should turn. It is better, therefore, contribute to defining and expressing people’s sense of if the constituency boundaries can be drawn so that their local community. That is a point that we have whole local authorities are contained within them. been arguing and no doubt will continue to argue in Local authorities then know exactly which individual proceedings on the Bill. Unfortunately, they are too Member of Parliament they need to work with. The much discounted in the Bill. If members of the more MPs they have to deal with, the more confusing, Government consider that questions of identity—people’s expensive and time-wasting it is for people in local sense of who they are and where they belong—are government. Equally, the more confusing and difficult negligible considerations in politics, I respectfully suggest it is for Members of Parliament to maintain the kind that they are seriously mistaken. Indeed, any system of of working relationship that they need. Neither the parliamentary representation that systematically discounts local authority nor the Member of Parliament should those emotions within our national life will not last. need to duplicate, triplicate or otherwise multiply Supposing that the Government are successful in representations, meetings or the dialogue that they legislating to bring this into effect, the system of have with their colleagues at the other level of government. 727 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 728

A Member of Parliament should champion the important within our system. It will be made more place he represents. He or she can champion a local difficult if we see the sort of fragmentation that the authority area if he or she has a clear-cut relationship Government seem willing to contemplate. with that local authority area. How much more difficult The same applies to voluntary organisations, which it is for a Member of Parliament convincingly to are part of the warp and weft of our democratic life, champion a hotchpotch of different local authorities activism and citizenship in the healthiest way in our that happen to fall within different parts of his constituencies. It is unfair on voluntary bodies to constituency. require them, often with very limited resources and hard pressed to do the tasks that they do in the Lord Grocott: What on earth would happen in a interests of their communities, to have to relate to a constituency that, let us say, crossed county boundaries, much more complex cat’s cradle of elected representatives where counties could take diametrically opposed views than need be the case. on major regional planning issues, or on school placements What lies behind our concern on this side of the and applications to different schools? What on earth House to ensure that this legislation allows for the does the constituency Member of Parliament do in continuation of a sensible and workable pattern of representations to central government on that? He will relationships between local authorities and Members seriously let down half his constituency if we go by of Parliament is respect for local government. Local these rigid rules. government in this country is too weak. If it is to become ill-assorted with Westminster representation, Lord Howarth of Newport: My noble friend is absolutely it will be bad for our democratic culture. As my noble right. I was just about to make that point; the Member friends have stressed, the ward is the building block of Parliament is liable to be conflicted if he owes equal and basis of our democracy. The Minister and Mr Nick loyalty to different local authorities, which might Clegg have both paid lip service to the importance of themselves be at odds on important policy issues. the ward as that building block. We must allow it to be Under the provisions of the Bill, as my noble friend a reality. Unless we make it realistic and practical for suggested, it would be difficult for a Member of Parliament political parties to organise at ward level, and then to to deal with elected county councillors in two different campaign both for elections to local authorities and counties that overlapped with his constituency. In the elections to Westminster constituencies, we will vex, previous debate I quoted Dr Lewis Baston on the confuse and undermine the operation of local authorities. danger that, with the narrow 5 per cent tolerance—or, It will be made worse if there are to be boundary as the Minister likes to call it, a 10 per cent tolerance: reviews every five years and frequent shifts of boundary. both ways from the norm of 76,000 voters—wards Let us, for heaven’s sake, not make the situation any would all too frequently be split. more complex and tormenting than it need be for local political parties. For these reasons, securing a rational and reasonably consistent alignment of constituency 6.15 pm boundaries with local authority boundaries, and Equally, there will be all too frequent occasions on minimising the occasions on which constituency which constituency boundaries have to cross county boundaries traverse local authority boundaries, is well council boundaries. Again, to quote Dr Baston: worth some compromise of the pure principle of numerical “In the Democratic Audit model of how boundaries could be equality. drawn using a 5 per cent rule, only 9 out of 46 counties, accounting for 67 of the 503 seats proposed for England, did not need to be grouped with another county (North Yorkshire, Humberside, Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, I have in the Lincolnshire, Cumbria, Staffordshire, Gloucestershire, Berkshire, course of my contributions over recent weeks tried to Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire). Furthermore, relatively small bring some fairly original material to our debates to future changes in electorate size would lead to disruptive change help them along. I have often drawn on statistical to the county groupings every parliament. A 10 per cent tolerance evidence from various organisations. However, today I of variation would transform this chaotic picture”, do not want to do that. I want to refer to a debate that and vastly for the better. This question of a 5 per cent took place—probably unknown to Members of this or 10 per cent tolerance connects absolutely inextricably House—in the House of Commons on 11 January in with the issue of alignment with local authority Westminster Hall. I should perhaps start by explaining boundaries. It is very important that we do not make a the relevance of Westminster Hall. It is a secondary mistake by legislating so tightly that we break the Chamber in the House of Commons where the debates existing pattern of good working relations as it largely are of great importance and great interest, but where, prevails between Members of Parliament and local for whatever reason, business managers in the House authorities; and fragment constituencies between different of Commons organise debates which very often attract local authorities, making for a far more complex, even fewer people. There was a particularly interesting debate chaotic, pattern—if you can call it that—of relationships. that took place there on parliamentary representation. That matters very much for the constituents of It was called by Mr Andrew George who is the Liberal both ward members and Members of Parliament. We Democrat Member for St Ives. The relevance of this all know that in Members’ constituency surgeries cases debate was that it was the first time that many Members are brought to them that, in principle, ought to have of the Liberal Democrat Benches in the House of been taken to the ward member. Sensible, practical, Commons had had the opportunity to speak on Clause 11 fluid relationships between Members of Parliament of the Bill. Because of the arrangements in the House and their colleagues in local government, in the service of Commons and the use of the guillotine and the of their shared constituents, are very precious and truncating of debate, there were many issues which the 729 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 730

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] Why has no Liberal Democrat Member of the House Liberal Democrat Member of Parliament had been of Lords got up to their feet and repeated a statement unable to raise. Indeed, he says at the beginning of his of that nature to this House? Never once in our contribution: debate—someone said that we have now been debating “I am delighted to have secured the debate, which will explore for 90 hours—has that point been made by a Liberal many of the issues that we did not have an opportunity to explore Democrat Member of the House of Lords. I can tell during the passage of the Parliamentary Voting System and you what the answer is. There is a contractual agreement Constituencies Bill … We failed to get to grips properly with the within this Chamber between two elements of a coalition; issues that needed to be debated to improve the Bill before it that agreement is silencing debate. It is completely transferred to another place”. — [Official Report, Commons, 11/1/11; undermining the very ethos of this Chamber in the col. 25WH] House of Lords. Then, in an aside—I have to be straight about this—he blamed Labour Members in reference to the delay in A Conservative Member—obviously a very courageous debate. Obviously, there were areas of the Bill that we one—a Mr Martin Vickers of Cleethorpes, said in the regarded as particularly important which the Liberal same debate: Democrats did not regard as important. I want to “Continually changing boundaries will impact on the vitality quote some of the things he and his colleague said, and sustainability of local political parties. The democratic process because they have not been considered by Ministers. needs viable local parties and associations, but constant boundary The comments that were made in Westminster Hall changes inevitably impact on their viability. Taking one ward out of a constituency can render the local party virtually bankrupt if had not been considered by Ministers when the Bill the ward’s financial make-up means that it contributes greatly to was taken through its Committee and Report stages in the party. We need to think seriously about that”.— [Official the House of Commons. Andrew George says: Report, Commons, 11/1/11; col. 26WH] “The Bill proposes that all constituencies have an electoral And so we do. Why are not Conservative Members of quota of approximately 76,000 with a margin of only 5% either this House getting up and arguing the case that is way. It would carve up the country in a manner that would create bizarre constituencies and ignore important cultural, historic and being put in Westminster Hall in the House of Commons? geographic boundaries”. And then, later in the debate, Mr Andrew George says that, We have not heard those words mentioned by any Member of the Liberal Democrats here in the House “the boundary of my constituency changed at the 2010 election of Lords. He goes on to say: and those constituents who used to live in my old constituency still contact me. Given the arrangements in the Bill, that sort of “We do not want antiseptic constituencies with perpetually thing would happen at every election, so there would be confusion”. mobile boundaries. The five-yearly boundary review that would —[Official Report, Commons, 11/1/11; col. 38WH] happen between each Parliament would mean an MP’s attachment to their constituency being perpetually reviewed, so the sense of And how right he is. settlement with the communities they represent would be continually undermined”. Let us take a town on the margin of a county, on the margin indeed of a constituency, that switches That has not been said by a Liberal Democrat Member from one election to another between Members of in the House of Lords; it was not said in the House of Parliament, where the electorate do not actually know Commons by a Liberal Democrat Member because who their MP is, because of this constant change and they did not have the opportunity to say it. It was said movement as the Boundary Commission somehow in the junior chamber in the House of Commons, in has to find a way of ensuring that constituency boundaries Westminster Hall. fall within this 5 per cent limit which we would wish to He then goes on to say: extend to 10 per cent. “The amendments to the Bill which I and other hon. Members Take a county like Cumbria, and let us take the tabled were unsuccessful, in that they were not selected or therefore town of Kendal. Kendal was not in my former debated”. constituency but it was very near the county boundary; There are procedural differences in the House of a beautiful town on the fringes of the Lake District. Commons. Whereas here we can debate technically all Indeed, the people of Kendal would say that they were our amendments, in the House of Commons they part of the Lake District. There is a possibility that have to be selected by Mr Speaker. If they are not within the terms of this Bill that town might be split. selected, they are not debated. Even if they are selected I know that Members of Parliament with large city they are not always debated because of the guillotine seats very often find that their cities are split. It will and timetable. He goes on about his amendments: work in a large city. It will work in a large community, “They sought to find circumstances in which the Boundary but it will not work in a small community. It will create Commission was given sufficient discretion to work towards the divisions within that area—divisions inside parties, target figure, taking into account reasonable geographic, cultural between officials inside parties, between treasurers, and electoral issues. We want the Government to allow places to secretaries, chairmen—all kinds of unseen divisions make decisions for themselves collectively, provided that they do that boundary commissioners when they are taking not request more favourable treatment, such as over-representation”, their decisions about the future of constituency boundaries which we accept. would never ever at any stage be aware of. Those are the kinds of issues that might well surface during the “I hope the Minister takes note of that. It is not about more favourable treatment but simply recognising the distinctiveness of course of an oral inquiry. But the Bill goes on to take places, which the Bill does not take into account”. [Official away the opportunity for such a forum to examine the Report, Commons, 11/1/11; col. 26WH] minor detail of what would happen in the small 731 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 732 community, a town like Kendal, in the event that it but after watching what happened to Hamilton, the were split in the way that the Bill might provide for in natural result has been that the community does not the end. feel that it is properly represented by one cohesive I have a lot more to say on these matters, but I shall voice in Parliament. Boundaries count. In the memorable save my words for later in the evening—indeed, the phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, night. if this goes ahead without any alteration, we will have “blocks on a map”. Lord McAvoy: My Lords, I would like to give some I intend to deal with one particular block on a map practical examples of what my noble friends have been in a later amendment in my name. I will take head-on describing here. I know that some folk do not like this argument that constituencies are just blocks on a practical examples, but this is what this House is for; map. I know that former MPs are not very popular in to listen to each other and to learn from each other. I your Lordships’ House at the moment. We seem to be am still on a learning process. a hunted species; but there we are. We will do our best The point about wards being the building blocks is to bear up and learn our trade in here. However, I am illustrated in the former constituency I represented. It determined to try to make a difference and ensure as illustrates the folly of tinkering with political systems best I can that Rutherglen will not become part of a because a party is part of a coalition. That is what block on a map. happened to the Labour Party in 2004 in Scotland and the Scottish Parliament elections where the Liberals Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Can my noble friend put as a price for joining a coalition the introduction remind me about the boundaries of the Scottish of proportional representation to local government. Parliamentary constituency represented by James Kelly, I can advise any coalition party involved with the and about the former boundaries of Rutherglen? My Liberals that in the long run they will tinker and recollection is that the situation is similar to what tamper with PR to your detriment and downfall. happened in Ayrshire and Edinburgh, whereby the What happened at the local elections was a disaster, boundaries are now not the same, and there are a but we have already discussed that and I do not want number of problems; MSPs have to deal with a number to be accused of or be guilty of repetition. A multi-member of MPs, and MPs have to deal with a number of ward system was introduced. MSPs.

6.30 pm Lord McAvoy: I thank my noble friend, because Two wards in my former constituency, Earnoch and that is the next item on my little list. Again, Labour Burnbank, are each represented by three members. I has given in too much to Liberal machinations and am not making a political point, because three members fascinations about systems. Last week, I mentioned in one ward are all Labour, and in the other at least that we kept on being told that the Scotland Act was two are Labour. Part of those two wards is in Rutherglen supposed to be the settled will of the Scottish people. and Hamilton West, and the other part is in Lanark The Scotland Act stated that the number of Westminster and Hamilton East. They are divided by Woodhead constituencies should be reduced and that the number Road. One side of the street is in one constituency the of Scottish parliamentary constituencies should be other side is in the other. I can see that applying to reduced in tandem. That did not happen, thanks mainly, constituencies, but it is not right for wards to be but not entirely, to Liberal pressure. Now the Westminster divided in that manner. These wards are split between constituency boundaries are not coterminous, and I two constituencies. I know that this will sound like notice the Minister expressing satisfaction at that for, I special pleading, and folk will say that it does not am sure, purely party interests. He is motivated to do matter because the public come first. The public come that. first surely by allowing political parties to organise in There has been a disjointed effort to try to cope an efficient and representative manner. No one should with that in terms of party organisation. Rutherglen dismiss the difficulties facing party organisations in and Hamilton West now has the entire Rutherglen trying to get their policies across to the public and Scottish parliamentary constituency within it, although being elected as representatives. Party organisation the people of west Hamilton feel that they are being cannot be dismissed as irrelevant or unimportant, as just moved about as part of a block which seems to be compared to the public interest, because I would maintain favoured by the Minister. The people of west Hamilton that the public interest is served by efficient political have been shunted away from the Westminster structures, which will ultimately be better for the public. constituency boundary, and into the boundary of We have these areas in which there are two Tom McCabe’s Scottish parliamentary constituency. constituencies. While my relations with my colleague, James Kelly is getting down to work very well in what neighbour and friend Jimmy Hood, the MP for Lanark is to him a new place, High Blantyre. and Hamilton, were okay, the situation was nevertheless I know this has been said before, and I apologise to disjointed. I do not want to spend too much time on anyone who thinks I am being repetitive. I am certainly that, because I have dealt with the issue of what not filibustering. I can assure colleagues of that. I am happened when constituency boundaries were split, not thin-skinned and sensitive, but I would not get and the town of Hamilton was split on a purely away with it. It is surely frustrating—annoying is too numerical basis. The community of Hamilton has strong a word—to be told that you are filibustering been badly damaged because it is not one cohesive when you are trying to get across the concerns of your unit. I have complained long and hard, and will continue constituency. At the end of the day, if any legislative to complain, about the effect of that on Rutherglen, Assembly does not take people into account or listen 733 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 734

[LORD MCAVOY] At that time there were no straightforward bus to them, we are all in a bad way. I make no apology for routes between those wards in the different local expressing my concerns about how this issue will affect authorities. To get there by car one had to go over the my community, because I was born and brought up in M60 motorway, and by public transport one would Rutherglen, where I have lived all my life. have to go into the centre of Manchester and out This continual five-year change in boundaries will again to get from Trafford to Salford or vice versa. be chaotic, if it goes ahead. In my experience in the The reaction of local people to the proposal from the other place, all political parties showed great faith in Boundary Commission was loud and vociferous; they the link between the Member of Parliament and the rehearsed many of the arguments that my noble friends constituency. There is a terrific bond. I do not say that have put in this Chamber. It was not because the to be elitist to colleagues on all sides of the House who people of Old Trafford rejected the people of Salford have never been in the other place. Nevertheless, that or vice versa but because they already identified with bond will be broken. I return to the absolutely brilliant different communities represented by the constituencies phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, of which they were already a part—the Old Trafford who said there will be just blocks on a map. wards were part of the Trafford local authority; the Salford wards were part of Salford local authority. Chaos will be caused to the political parties, and that will be reflected in issues such as how best to Those involved emphasised the importance of the represent people. I used to have people come to me communities in those areas; the differences between from the other side; and, vice versa, Jimmy Hood had the communities in Old Trafford and in that part of people coming to him from my side in Hamilton. The Salford; they talked about the sense of identity and situation was particularly bad in Hamilton, because it place to which my noble friend Lady Farrington referred; was a town split in two, just to make up numbers. That and they argued strongly that they wanted coherence is an example of a town of which I have a fair of representation from both their local councillors knowledge being split down the middle just to fit the and, particularly, their Members of Parliament. They numbers—end of story. That is surely wrong, and I wanted to feel that they shared the Member of Parliament cannot believe that every noble Lord on the other side who represented the whole area of which they were a of the House, or our colleagues on the Cross Benches, part, and that that Member of Parliament and that thinks that it is good not to take account of constituency would reflect the history, the geography, communities—especially given that this will happen the boundary, the proximity and other mechanisms every five years. At the end of the day, this is not through which people reinforce their sense of identity— simply about party mechanics and organisation to local newspapers, schools and so on. suit the politicians. It is about whether the proposals It is unthinkable that wards should be split across make the political structures and organisations fit different constituencies by boundaries being redrawn. enough to represent the people, stop the confusion If noble Lords think through the implications of that and be a useful part of a democratic process in this for political parties, local people and local authorities, country. they may feel it would be a chaotic situation for all concerned. In building on wards it is important that Baroness Hughes of Stretford: My Lords, like my local people should feel that they have got that sense colleagues, I think there are many problems with the of identity and coherence in the constituency as a Bill. The biggest problem is that the Government whole. By and large, from my experience, I believe that failed to consult with local people before they dreamt where possible a constituency should contain a whole up their proposals. I say that because in my experience local authority and not be split. as, I hesitate to say, a local councillor for nearly 25 years, as a leader of a local authority and as a 6.45 pm Member of Parliament for 13 years, when faced with Those are the direct concerns of constituents, in my proposals that they feel cut across their sense of experience. A second consideration—my noble friend community and identity as a result of a boundary Lord Howarth touched on this—which indirectly is review, local people feel very strongly about some of also important for local people, is how easy or more the issues that the Bill relegates to secondary importance difficult it is for a Member of Parliament to do their in favour of a rigid mathematical formulation. It is a job in the situation I have described. If that had come great pity that the Government did not consult local about, the Member of Parliament would have had to people about these proposals before they put them relate to two local authorities—Trafford and Salford; forward because, had they done so, they would have to two primary care trusts; to two major hospitals; come up with a different formulation. and to two police divisions. Indeed, given the inability It may be useful if I recount to noble Lords one of people to go from one side of the constituency to such experience during those 25 years when the Boundary the other because of the transport difficulties I have Commission made a proposal, which would be common outlined, the provision of advice services across the with the measures in this Bill, to split my then constituency constituency would be very problematic. and form a new constituency in the Greater Manchester If you are a Member of Parliament you feel strongly area of the north-west of England. The Boundary that you want to do the best for your constituency, Commission’s proposals during my period as an MP your area; you want to champion it; you want to would have taken five wards from the north of my chivvy at the heels of central and local government former constituency in Old Trafford, next to Manchester and of the government agencies that provide important City centre, and linked them with four or five wards in services such as health, transport, security and policing. the neighbouring local authority of Salford. If you are doing that in relation to two different areas 735 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 736 and you are doubling up on the number of bodies with parliamentary constituency of Islwyn would disappear, which you have to liaise—which often have different which would have certain consequences. Under the interests, as my noble friends have outlined—you cannot Electoral Reform Society’s proposals, which could be do a proper job for either one of those places. a blueprint for whichever body follows, the community In the example I have given, the proposal by the of Abercarn will be put into the new constituency of Boundary Commission would have meant a much Caerphilly.Abercarn is in the Ebbw valley and Caerphilly safer Labour seat for me, combining my safest wards is in the Rhymney valley, separated by two mountain in Old Trafford with Salford instead of with some of chains and three rivers. They are distinct and separate the other Trafford wards. However, that was not an and there is no community interest across the valleys. important factor. The important consideration was It is proposed that the community of Cefn Fforest will whether we could end up with a recommendation that become part of the new constituency of Merthyr provided the coherence of community and identity Tydfil. They are in separate counties and there is no that local people wanted and make it possible for the community of interest whatever between the two. Member of Parliament to do a good job for that area. I am happy to say that, as a result of the public Lord Grocott: I assume that the Electoral Reform inquiry, to which local people came in their droves Society’s map was applied to the whole country, as we unsolicited, and made all of these points and more to had the same in Shropshire. Was there anyone at any the Boundary Commission, the recommendations were level of representation in the noble Lord’s part of changed and the principles of community and so on Wales, such as a local authority, who thought that the were upheld. That is exactly the kind of flexibility of proposals made any sense whatever? No elected judgment applied by the Boundary Commission to representative or official in Shropshire thought there which my noble friend Lord Grocott referred. was any sense at all in what the Electoral Reform Society proposed. As with many other such endeavours, the issue cannot be reduced to a simple mathematical equation when you are dealing with people and their sense of Lord Touhig: I am more likely to find someone place and community, and when geographical barriers recruiting for the band of hope in hell than to find and idiosyncratic issues of history and geography are anyone in my part of Wales who supported it. It will involved. I shall reserve my other arguments for later not happen, frankly. when further amendments come forward. I support The point that I am trying to get across is that there the amendment. is not the community of interest that has to exist if we are to have huge constituencies based on numbers. If the Bill is enacted as it stands we will not need to Lord Touhig: I do not intend detaining your Lordships employ the Boundary Commission to do this work. very long but I should like to refer to the impact that Anybody with a map, a pencil and an abacus will be the legislation is having on Wales. As a Welsh Member able to draw up the new parliamentary boundaries. We of your Lordships’ House I feel strongly about this might as well hand it over to the Flat Earth Society for because not one amendment about Wales was debated all the good it will do for locally based parliamentary in the other place. The use of the guillotine ensured representation. that none was debated and yet Wales is the part of the United Kingdom that is most adversely affected by the This is so important and fundamental, and it is a Bill. matter that I will return to perhaps at greater length when we debate the amendments affecting Wales that Paul Wood, a member of the Boundary Commission are in my name and those of other noble Lords. It is for Wales, in evidence to the Welsh Affairs Select important to recognise that there are particular difficulties, Committee in the other place, produced a report on especially across the south Wales valleys where simply the Bill and said that, having constituencies based on numbers will not work “issues such as local ties and historical ties, which may have had in terms of the community of interest. There will be more weight previously, are clearly subsumed in the legislation to no link whatever between the Member of Parliament the numerical issues”. and the constituent. That will be a retrograde step, so I In other words, community-based representation will hope that with those few remarks the Minister will get fail and disappear if the Bill is not amended. Indeed, the impression of how strongly I feel, as do many the creation of large, rigidly defined constituencies people in Wales. I know how people on all sides, based on numbers will put an end to it. including Cross-Benchers, feel about this. Wales will I think of my part of Wales, and the south Wales be adversely affected in that 20 per cent of all the valleys in particular, as being like a hand: the valleys reductions in the number of parliamentary seats in are the fingers and the palms are the cities of Newport, Britain will be in Wales. It will lose one in four of its Cardiff and Swansea. There is movement from the parliamentary seats as the Bill stands. That cannot be valleys to the cities, but there is hardly any movement right and I will return to that debate later. across valleys from one valley to another. That is historical and something that we have understood for Lord Newton of Braintree: The last thing I want to many decades. do is extend the debate but somebody needs to say that Perhaps I can relate my concerns on how Bill will the picture of idealised perfection that the Boundary impact on my former constituency of Islwyn. The Commission arrangements have had up until now, Electoral Reform Society has produced a paper in implicitly presented by some of the things that have which it has redrawn the electoral map of Wales based been said, is simply not the case, especially in an area on 30 parliamentary seats. In its proposals my former of rapidly expanding populations. 737 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 738

[LORD NEWTON OF BRAINTREE] Lord Newton of Braintree: That was not what I said. I happen to have been a Member of Parliament a I indicated specifically that the flexibility in the Bill, lot longer ago, admittedly, in the county of Essex and the possibly greater flexibility that has been the which has had a rapidly expanding population and subject of one discussion, would allow those factors to went through several boundary changes. I am bound be taken into account. Of course, they are not to be to say that the constituency I represented included dismissed but equally, with a reasonably fair voting parts of two districts, Chelmsford and Braintree; it system, they are not the be-all and end-all. would have included parts of two PCTs, had they existed at the time; it related to two police divisions, to Lord Davies of Stamford: In that case the noble quote examples used earlier; and indeed, it had three Lord is saying what I totally believe, which is that the different postal districts in its geography. I found not present system is not all bad; it could be a great deal the slightest difficulty in representing all those parts worse; and flexibility is of the essence in the role of the and strands to the best of my ability. My former Boundary Commission. If those are the three principles constituents might have views on whether I did it well that he was setting forth I could not have put it better or badly overall, but I found no difficulty at all in myself. That is exactly what I think is the view of the relating to both Chelmsford and Braintree councils majority of people in all corners of this House. and all the other bodies to which I referred. I do not The Government have come in for a great deal of think that we should have it presented, as some have, criticism over the past 90 hours, or whatever it is. I do that the situation is a dreamworld without the Bill. not think we should have too much sympathy for them My other point is that the constituency that I because they brought it on their head by going ahead represented has now been split into two and the two with this Bill without pre-legislative scrutiny, as my main towns within it are separate. Frankly, I think noble friend Lady Hughes has just said. There was no they probably like it as they were about the same size attempt to consult local people at any stage. It is not and there was a degree of rivalry so they are happy to an excuse to say that they had a deadline of 5 May and be split up, even though they are still in the same local needed to make rapid progress because it was an government district. One of them is now part of the arbitrary decision of the coalition to put the two Bills constituency consisting of parts of three districts: together. We have been over that several times. The Braintree, Colchester and Maldon. I do not believe Government have been subject to a lot of criticism but that the new MP is having any difficulty representing I do not feel sorry for them. However, I shall not add all those parts of her new constituency. Let us not to that now. I want to be much more positive and overplay our hand on this and recognise that there will move on. be difficulties whatever system we have. There is a The public would expect us in the Committee stage degree of flexibility in the Bill’s proposals. Last week of such a Bill to do two things. there were discussions about increasing that degree of flexibility. There is already enough flexibility to make 7pm it quite possible not to have the abacus concept that the noble Lord talked about just now. Lord Campbell-Savours: I thank my noble friend for giving way. I was just looking at my notes because we had an earlier intervention on Maldon. The noble Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: Does the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, referred to Maldon. Lord agree that in the case of both the boundary He is talking to the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, at the reviews he spoke about, local people had the opportunity moment but he might wish to take note of this. Maldon to say whether they were happy or whether, for example, has a very interesting history. It was referred to by they wanted the two towns to be split, whereas this Bill Lewis Baston in his brief, which my noble friend will would not allow that? have received. However, the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, did not tell us that the boundaries were changed in 1955 to 1974, in 1974 to 1983, in 1983 to Lord Newton of Braintree: I understand the point 1997, in 1997 to 2010 and in 2010 to 2015. The made by the noble Baroness, and it is yet another evidence from Maldon is that the people of Maldon point that has been done to death. The suggestions are confused about what constituency they belong in that community is all, regardless of other circumstances, because of all the changes over the past 40 years to the which has been implicit in quite a lot of what has been boundaries of the constituency in which they have said, and that somehow this is death and disaster been placed. It is rather strange that the noble Lord, compared with the situation at present, are complete Lord Newton, failed to refer to that when he commented and absolute poppycock. on his own constituency.

Lord Davies of Stamford: I have the highest regard Lord Davies of Stamford: I am sure that the noble for the noble Lord, Lord Newton, and I listened, as I Lord, Lord Newton, has heard and taken note of always do, with great interest. However, I was not sure those remarks. I say to my noble friend with the what central point he was trying to make. Was he greatest friendliness that I do not intend to try to turn saying that basically we should not worry about any of myself into an expert on the electoral history of Maldon. these things—to hell with local government boundaries, I come back to the point that I was making, which is local loyalties and identities, and let us just have a that I think the public in general rightly expect us in a computer divide the country into blocks of a certain Committee on a Bill of this kind to do two things. One identical number and spew out whatever the result is, is to explore to the full the details in the Bill to open up irrespective of those things? Is that what he was saying? every possible angle of vision to ensure that we look 739 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 740 through the consequences. It is very important in any I think that there is also consensus on a third and Committee on any Bill to try to identify the possible very important point, which was made by the noble unintended consequence or consequences of it. Lord, Lord Rennard, from the coalition Benches: namely, that you cannot achieve these things and give On the whole, this House has done a job in that the Boundary Commission any flexibility in practice regard of which we can be proud. What disgraceful unless we look again at the 5 per cent limitation. negligence it would have been on the part of this Otherwise, anything that we tell the Boundary House if we had not discussed Wales at all, which my Commission will be completely negated by the 5 per noble friend Lord Touhig has just mentioned, given cent rule. What you cannot and must not do—I do not that the other House has apparently failed to do so. think that any of us would want to do this—is to give Anyone who has read that wonderful classic of Welsh the Boundary Commission a contradictory brief and literature, How Green Was My Valley, knows that the put it in a situation whereby it cannot solve the problem mountains create a real cultural and social barrier that it is being set. That would be quite wrong. If there between the different Welsh valleys. There has been no is to be flexibility to enable the Boundary Commission opportunity to explore Wales, or Manchester for that to take account of county boundaries or other local matter. I have heard more about the electoral districts factors which it considers to be important, it is clearly and history of Scotland than I have ever done in my necessary to look again at the 5 per cent rule. I think life. Of course, I am very tempted to talk about the that consensus has emerged in the course of our beautiful town of Stamford and say what a tragedy proceedings on that very important matter. and monstrosity it would be if it were divided up and Fourthly, and finally, I sense there is a growing part of it were taken away and put into Leicestershire feeling that something needs to be done about my next or somewhere else, but I will not go down that route point, not necessarily by continuing with the present despite the blandishments of my noble friend Lord status quo but not necessarily, either, by having what is Graham, a man whom the whole House holds in the in the Bill, which is nothing at all. We need to ensure very greatest regard. I simply say that we are doing that we do not just say, “Leave this matter in this that part of our job properly, well and thoroughly, and House and never again is there to be any open discussion it is quite right that we are doing so. of the principles of our electoral boundaries”. That The second task which the public as a whole would would be a very unnatural situation. Therefore, we expect of us is to make some progress, or at least to need to preserve something like the public inquiry attempt to make some progress, towards consensus, system. My noble friend Lady Hughes explained how because the public always think that we should try to that had made a big difference in Manchester in a get consensus on constitutional matters. The public recent case to which she drew our attention, and I are right about that, and I think that most of us, in our know of other cases in which that has happened. heart of hearts, all feel that we should try to get I think I mentioned that I, with some supporters, consensus. There has not been much of an effort to get gave evidence to a Boundary Commission. We did not consensus for a long time, but such an effort has been win our point but there was a general sense of satisfaction made this afternoon, and that is very important. The that we had been able to air it and that the arguments Bill does not deal with wards at all, but the Minister had been properly, duly, publicly and transparently has said that he will take that on board and come back weighed. We do not need the existing form of public to the Committee with something on wards. That is a inquiry. My noble friend Lord Rooker set out how he very positive statement. I take it in good faith, as we thinks that the whole process could be more rapidly all do, and I do not think that we need say anything conducted. I was very interested in his suggestion in more about wards this afternoon, and I shall not that regard, which seems a promising avenue of discussion do so. under the heading of future amendments on the Marshalled List. However, some sort of public and Views have been expressed on both sides of the open appeals process is absolutely essential if we are House, including by the noble Lords, Lord Rennard not to put ourselves in a situation whereby the great and Lord Newton, that counties are important. We and the good, if we can describe ourselves in that can all argue about how important they are in particular way—perhaps we are the great and the bad—take an contexts, but it is clear that they are important. Paragraph 5 irrevocable decision and then hand over to a bureaucracy to Schedule 2 says simply that the Boundary Commission the right for ever after to take decisions behind closed “may” take account of counties. However, that is just doors and subsequently announce to the grateful public permissive; it implies that you can do so if you really what their electoral boundaries will be without it ever want to. It does not accommodate the counties. We having to explain itself in public in any kind of open debated earlier the preceding group of amendments, forum. some of which would have forced the Boundary Commission to take account of counties. My noble We have made considerable progress on those four and learned friend proposes a very reasonable middle principles this afternoon. The prospect may be emerging road in Amendment 71A: namely, that the Boundary through the mist of a structure that could command Commission “should, where practicable” do so. In the consensus that we all regard as very desirable for a other words, there is flexibility but no insistence. If the Bill of this kind. Boundary Commission feels that other more important considerations ought to override the sanctity of county Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, does boundaries, so be it. That is real progress and a my noble friend, like me, remember successive sensible way forward. I hope that it may be the basis of Governments and successive political parties trying to consensus on this important matter of counties. undermine the sense of place of Rutland, and failing? 741 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 742

Lord Davies of Stamford: The factual answer to That is why we believe there is a reasonable case in that factual question is yes, of course I recall that. No certain circumstances for the Boundary Commission one in my constituency over the age of about 40 will to have discretion to split them and why there should have forgotten that. Nevertheless, that issue was resolved not be a prohibition, which would be the effect of at happily for all concerned in the context of public least four of the provisions of the composite amendment inquiries and establishes a very good precedent for moved by the noble and learned Lord. them as a way of maintaining, or when necessary I repeat that we seek—and this is enshrined in the restoring, public confidence in the system. Bill—to ensure one value for one vote, not to draw up constituencies to suit the administrative convenience Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The amendment would of Members of Parliament. I cannot accept that, as restrict the Boundary Commission in drawing up new the noble Lord, Lord Howarth of Newport, proposed, constituency boundaries by a series of provisions it is somehow impossible for a Member of Parliament specifying that constituency boundaries may not cross to discharge his or her functions if his or her constituency certain local authority or European constituency includes more than one local authority. My noble friend boundaries. I noted that, when moving his amendment, Lord Newton of Braintree made that abundantly clear. the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, reiterated that he and his colleagues recognised the Lord Howarth of Newport: I am not saying that. I need for greater equality but seek to put that restriction am certain that the noble Lord, Lord Newton of on to the Boundary Commission in its recommendations. Braintree, represented his constituents entirely admirably. The Bill provides for the Boundary Commission to I am objecting to the thrust of reform that makes it far take into account local government boundaries, as more likely that local authorities will be fragmented well as local ties, although that has not been acknowledged and that constituencies will consist of more, rather in some contributions. As we have said on more than than fewer, local authorities, which must be calculated one occasion, that is subject to the principle of equality. to make it harder for all concerned—Members of We believe that the details of how it does that should Parliament, other elected members and constituents. be a matter for the Boundary Commission. Just to clarify, a government amendment to the definition of Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I listened to the noble local government boundaries was made in the other Lord’s speech, and he gave the very clear impression place. I re-emphasise that it means that the Boundary that that was challenging in the extreme. As my noble Commissions may take unity authority boundaries friend said, there were three local authorities in the into account. constituency that he represented. The constituency It has been made clear in several contributions, not that I represented contained two local authorities. On least that of my noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree the basis of the figures that I gave in a previous debate, but also that of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, that by my calculation 187 Members of Parliament represent even under the existing arrangements the Boundary constituencies that have more than one metropolitan Commission has not exactly achieved what in some or non-metropolitan district boundary. I believe that it people’s view might be perfection. The noble Lord, is more than possible to do an adequate job of representing Lord McAvoy, talked about Hamilton being split into one’s constituents where there is more than one local two. Even before the current split, there was a previous authority in a constituency. split between Hamilton North and Bellshill and Hamilton We do not believe that we should be tying the hands South. An important point, which was made by my of the Boundary Commission in a way that prevents it noble friend Lord Newton and alluded to by the noble from recommending the best solutions for electors Baroness, Lady Hughes of Stretford, is that local simply for the convenience of Members of the other government is not the sole challenge that Members of place. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Parliament have to deal with. There are health boards, Foulkes, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Hughes and primary healthcare trusts and police divisions. It would Lady Farrington, about the importance of local be a nightmare, if not an impossibility, to try to ensure constituency parties. They of course have an important that the Member of Parliament had to deal with only role in oiling the wheels of our democracy, but I do one each of police, health and local authorities. not think that their interests should be elevated above those of individual constituents. As we mentioned in debates on previous groups, we have sought generally to follow the 1986 Act provisions I do not want to follow down the path of anecdotage, on local authority boundaries. We want the Boundary but the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, mentioned the Commissions to have flexibility to take account of number of party fundraising events at this time in specific circumstances, but we also recognise that there Scotland that are focused on Burns suppers. I had the is some merit in placing discretionary consideration in great pleasure of attending a Liberal Democrat Burns the hands of the Boundary Commission, including supper in South Edinburgh, which has already reorganised with regard to wards, about which I will say more in a itself to take account of the changes in the boundaries moment. and the disjunction between Scottish parliamentary boundaries and Westminster boundaries. I do not In its fifth general report, the Boundary Commission really want to hear more of the Burns supper adventures for England noted that, of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. “some wards on the outskirts of towns contained very different communities. For instance, there were occasions where the majority of the electorate of the ward were urban dwellers residing in a Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I just wondered whether very small area of the ward on the edge of a town. However, the it was in the Edinburgh South UK parliamentary small remainder of the ward’s electorate was made up of those constituency or the Edinburgh Southern Scottish living in rural communities some distance from the town”. parliamentary constituency. 743 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 744

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The point I was making Lords Constitution Committee and when he spoke in was that it now calls itself South Edinburgh to take in answer to questions in the Commons. Why not put the various parliamentary constituencies in the south that into the Bill? My fourth and final point is to say of Edinburgh. how sad I was not to be in Edinburgh South—that is, Morningside, where I was born and brought up—to Lord Campbell-Savours: Will the noble and learned attend the noble and learned Lord’s Burns Night Lord give way? supper. I am grateful that he said at the end that he will Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I have tried to be come back with some ideas. I am not taking that as patient. him giving me any kind of assurances, but I shall wait Four out of the seven provisions in the amendment to see what happens next before deciding what to do relate to wards and how they should be used in the about this sort of amendment. In those circumstances, Bill. I cannot accept that the Government have been I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. dismissive—the word used by the noble and learned Lord—of wards. I certainly endorse what the noble Amendment 71A withdrawn. Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, said, about the importance of the ward level. That is why, in response House resumed. Committee to begin again not before to the previous set of amendments, I stated our belief 8.21 pm. that wards are in many cases already the building blocks of constituencies. They are the level that can often reflect local community ties. The English Boundary Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations Commission has confirmed that in the majority of 2010 cases in England, wards are used as the basic element Motion to Annul of each constituency. For reasons that I have already given—that some wards might combine a large part of 7.21 pm an urban area on the outskirts of the city and a rural Moved By Lord Knight of Weymouth hinterland—there might be reasons to give the Boundary Commission discretion to split boundaries. Therefore, That an humble Address be presented to Her an absolute prohibition, as proposed in the amendment, Majesty praying that the regulations, laid before the goes too far. I hope that the undertaking that I gave in House on 30 November, be annulled. response to the previous debate to look seriously at the issue of wards and to bring back our proposals on Relevant Document: 15th Report from the Merits Report will satisfy the House at this stage. On that Committee. basis, I invite the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his amendment. Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, the two Motions standing in my name on the Order Paper Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I am grateful to the relate to two instruments to change housing benefit noble and learned Lord for the detail into which he regulations. The instruments seek to cut the housing went. I will very briefly deal with his points. First, he benefit bill by around £1 billion per year by 2015 by rightly says that the Bill states “may take into account”, cutting what can be awarded under the local housing rather than the commission being bound not to cross allowance arrangements from April through: first, the ward, unitary authority or other boundaries. If the removal of the five-bedroom local housing allowance noble and learned Lord cares—not now—to read my rate so that the maximum level is for four-bedroom amendment, he will see that in some cases it is an properties; secondly, the introduction of absolute caps absolute prohibition, for example in relation to European so that local housing allowance weekly rates cannot Parliamentary boundaries, district or borough wards. exceed £250 for a one-bedroom property, £290 for a In others, it is not; it is a provision to “take into two-bedroom property, £340 for a three-bedroom property account”. I have sought to reflect the point that the and £400 for a four-bedroom property; and, thirdly, noble and learned Lord makes. the removal of the £15 weekly housing benefit excess Secondly, I think the Minister said that 187 that some customers can receive under the local housing constituencies cross both metropolitan and other local allowance arrangements. Fourthly, there is an additional authority boundaries. He does not need to intervene measure, which we welcome, relating to an extra bedroom on this; his point is broadly that 187 currently cross for those with care needs. However, the final—and, I different sorts of local authority boundaries. I completely argue, most damaging—measure on which I shall accept what the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree, focus is the setting of local housing allowance rates at who has much influence in the House, said. I am sure the 30th percentile of rents in each broad rental market that he completely and excellently represented his area rather than at the median. The Government are constituency. The point that is being made on the increasing discretionary housing payment funding to other side is that it is better if that is not the position. local authorities by £130 million over four years to One assumes that if it is 187 now, it is bound to go up enable councils to try to mitigate some of the effects of under the changes to be introduced under the Bill. these measures. The noble and learned Lord’s third point was that These instruments amount to little more than an he accepts as a matter of principle that the ward will attack on the poorer people of this country—those be the building block. That was expressed explicitly by who have no choice but to rent and who are either Nick Clegg when he appeared before the House of low earners or on out-of-work benefits. Since the 745 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[LORDS] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 746

[LORD KNIGHT OF WEYMOUTH] In truth, the Government’s posturing over extravagant publication of the Government’s impact assessment benefits sends a clear message: that the rationale behind last summer, many organisations with expertise in these ill conceived reforms is founded on the excesses housing, homelessness and poverty, such as Shelter, of a relative few. Their application would be tantamount Crisis and the Residential Landlords Association, have to collective punishment—penalising the many vulnerable raised serious concerns, shared by the Opposition, people for the excesses of the very few. From data about these amendments to the housing benefit compiled by the Cambridge Centre for Housing and regulations. Planning Research at the University of Cambridge, it The Government’s changes to housing benefit were is estimated that these cuts will force many more expertly summarised by the noble Lord, Lord Best, in claimants into severe poverty, with the weekly income his speech to this House on 2 December last year, of 84,000 households dropping below £100 per couple when he said that, after housing costs. Incidentally, these households are “the intention is to reduce the housing benefit bill by some home to more than 54,000 children. £2.25 billion per annum by the end of this Parliament. That is On the local housing allowance cuts as a whole, the £2.25 billion a year that will not be paid through housing benefit Social Security Advisory Committee, in its withering to landlords. There are only two parties from whom this money verdict on these regulations, stated that, can come; one is the landlord by accepting a lower rent, and the “these measures must impact disproportionately on those low-income other is the tenants finding the balance from their own resources, households with the least financial resilience and the fewest including other benefits—since most are on benefits of different options for managing their lives and their finances”. sorts, or pensions. Which of these two parties is most likely to take this very substantial £2-and-a-bit billion hit?”.—[Official Critics unanimously agree that the change to a Report, 2/12/10; col. 1656.] 30th percentile in LHA calculations, along with the That is a good question, and half of that sum is to be caps on housing benefit, will result in a significant found from the changes that we are debating today. drop in income for hundreds of thousands of households. The answer to the noble Lord’s question comes in part Of these, an estimated 269,000 will fall into what from the Residential Landlords Association, the Shelter calls “serious difficulty”. Unable to negotiate a representative body of more than 9,200 private landlords. reduction in rent, they will have just three options: Its briefing on these regulations is clear. Its landlords hoping their landlord will forgo a proportion of the panel survey found that 71 per cent of respondents rent; moving into cheaper and probably overcrowded would not lower rents. In fact, in light of the proposed accommodation; or becoming homeless. changes, 46 per cent of landlords surveyed indicated The removal of the five-bedroom rate will act as a that they would look to re-let properties away from disincentive for families to come together. Why would local housing allowance tenants, reducing the level of two single-parent families with, say, three children private rental stock available to claimants and potentially each come together when they would be better off forcing households into homelessness. Not only have apart? Many tenants will run up arrears, making them the Government offered no evidence to support their “at fault” for their eviction and perhaps not entitled to assertion that rents will be lowered to meet lower emergency accommodation. It is expected that half of housing benefit levels, but they cannot counter the those households in serious difficulty will have to evidence that points the other way. It is clear that the move or become homeless. Some 72,000 of that number bulk of the savings from these measures will come are families, equating to 129,000 children potentially from the pockets of the tenants. made homeless. The measures have serious implications for hundreds These changes will affect households in rural as of thousands of honest, hard-working and vulnerable well as urban areas and particularly those with high people. We should bear in mind the fact that 4.7 million rents, such as Oxford, Edinburgh and Brighton, but people receive housing benefit in this country. Of they will be felt most acutely in London. Here, house those, 2 million are pensioners on pension credit prices are more than double the average for England guarantee, 500,000 are people on jobseeker’s allowance and Wales, and private rents carry a 50 per cent and 700,000 are people in work in low-paying jobs. premium, leaving only the worst-maintained and The Government’s own impact assessment of the overcrowded accommodation available to housing benefit regulations as a whole predicted that almost 1 million claimants under these proposals. The same research families would be affected, with an average weekly from the University of Cambridge estimates that, income loss of £12 nationally, rising to £22 in London. within five years, almost the whole of inner London The intention of course, as Homeless Link points will be unaffordable to those in receipt of benefits. out, is to make life in receipt of benefit “uncomfortable”, Poorer residents will move to more affordable housing as a way of driving the jobless back into work. The at the periphery of the city. With demand for private popular rhetoric from the Government has been around rental stock so high here, there is little incentive for the assertion that those claiming housing benefit are landlords to reduce the cost of renting, so LHA claimants accessing accommodation that their working neighbours currently living in boroughs such as Hammersmith cannot. However, researchers at the University of and Fulham, Westminster, Islington or Camden, where Birmingham have found that this claim is out of step it is expected that no affordable stock will exist, will be with reality. Housing benefit claimants receive a rent forced into moving or into homelessness. set at median market rates and so cannot live just anywhere. Furthermore, their findings suggest that, 7.30 pm despite infrequent, extreme anomalies, 40 per cent of London borough authorities expect that, with the lower-income working families pay more in rent than caps in place, 82,000 families will face losing their they would receive in housing benefit. homes in London. The Mayor of London described it 747 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[24 JANUARY 2011] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 748 as a “Kosovo-style ethnic cleansing”. The poor will be behind. I will not rehearse that argument now, but pushed out of the capital; people in work will be suffice it to say that he could do things differently with pushed further away from their place of employment, these measures. their place of worship or the support networks of The Government have got it half right. Within the friends and family on which they rely. Children will package, the largest block of saving is made by abolishing suffer the upheaval of changing schools. It is all in the the £15 excess. They should do that and go ahead with impact assessment. Information from London Councils the payment for an extra room for carers. That package shows that families will be moving into boroughs would save half a billion pounds per annum. However, where there is already a shortage of early years school they should suspend the other measures. The removal places. The children may not have anywhere to go to of the fifth bedroom saves them £15 million a year at school. most and carries the risk of costing much more than Further still, individuals requiring specific educational that in the cost of homelessness. Capping the rates facilities, care or assistance may not be able to access generally should be dealt with through the wider cap the types of service available to them in the borough in that they are proposing on benefit income, which which they currently live. Those families will be moving would retain much greater flexibility to deal with into local authorities in such numbers that the existing individual needs. public services there may well be unable to cope. I The move to reduce affordability from half of houses gather that boroughs such as Haringey and Newham to rent to 30 per cent needs more debate, as it raises are already looking at how to recruit more social huge concerns, especially combined with the move to workers to help them to cope. The Social Security constrain local housing allowance increases to the CPI Advisory Committee remarked: measure of inflation, which is proposed elsewhere. I therefore suggest that these should be tackled in the “Enforced relocation to cheaper areas entails not simply upheaval, context of the forthcoming welfare reform Bill, which cost and stress to the households involved, but also the transfer of public service obligations and costs which the receiving areas are would allow time to address the large risk of homelessness likely to be ill-equipped, unprepared and unresourced to handle”. from these measures with the associated social and financial costs that go with them. That would allow all It has been estimated by Shelter that some 35,000 Members of this House to amend and properly debate households will approach their local authorities for these measures. advice and assistance on homelessness. Many of these I have sought to be constructive and there is one will be families with dependent children and as such other thing that I will do to be constructive and considered to be “priority need”, to whom the local helpful to the House tonight. I am clear that it is in authority has a statutory duty to provide housing. order to move the Motions in my name, given that the Crisis believes that the likely result will be that single Cunningham report of 2006 said: homeless people, who are already not a priority for “It is consistent both with the Lords’ role in Parliament as a housing, will become even less of a priority for assistance. revising chamber, and with Parliament’s role in relation to delegated The estimated costs attendant on these housing legislation, for the Lords to threaten to defeat an SI”— dilemmas is not insignificant. It is estimated that for example, in the exceptional circumstance of the £120 million will be required to satisfy temporary Merits Committee drawing it to the special attention accommodation needs. Going even further, Homeless of the House. That is what has happened in this case, Link has identified the regulations’ tipping point—the with the 15th report of the Merits Committee in figure at which costs begin to outstrip any benefits or December last year. However, I am mindful that there savings derived—as £1.77 billion, equivalent to is an alternative Motion in the name of the noble 106,070 homeless people. That number represents just Lord, Lord Best. That would not stop these damaging 28 per cent of the estimated households at severe risk regulations but would send a very strong message to of homelessness as a result of the proposed changes. the Government from your Lordships’ House. The The most pessimistic forecasts suggest that these Government should listen and act if the House supports amendments could cost the state in excess of £6 billion. the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best, These regulations are in danger of increasing the as I hope it will. Therefore, in keeping with the constructive deficit, not reducing it. Far from supporting people nature of this Opposition, our respect for convention into work, breaking the cycle of dependency or ending and our desire to be helpful to the House, I intend to the benefits culture, the principal effect of these withdraw my Motion at the end of the debate. In the amendments looks to be the ghettoisation of the capital’s mean time, I beg to move. disadvantaged—forcing families from their homes, forcing Lord Best: My Lords, I shall speak to all three of children into poverty and homelessness and overburdening these Motions, but in particular, to the third one already stretched public services, all at a potential cost standing in my name. I share the concerns of the noble of three times the estimated savings. Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, that the changes Your Lordships will be relieved to hear that I do introduced by the regulations and the order are likely not think that the Government should do nothing to have very serious consequences. The Government about the rising cost of housing benefit. The Minister expect the cumulative effect of the eight caps, reductions will undoubtedly claim that these are unfortunate and restrictions on housing benefit and local housing changes forced on him by the economic legacy left by allowances, of which two are the subject of regulations the Government of which I was a member. I absolutely before us today, to achieve savings of over £2 billion reject the notion that there is no alternative. There is each year by 2015. What is not certain is where the an alternative economic policy, which starts with impact of these changes will fall, as the noble Lord, stimulating growth and then has prudent cuts following Lord Knight, indicated. 749 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[LORDS] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 750

[LORD BEST] different areas, I think there are opportunities for rent The charities working in this field have produced reductions where the local housing allowance is paid excellent briefings for us. Those have come from Shelter, direct to landlords—as is facilitated by these regulations, Crisis, Citizens Advice, Homeless Link, Barnardos, avoiding the danger of arrears, which can lead to Family Action, along with the Chartered Institute of evictions that are costly for landlords as well as traumatic Housing and the National Housing Federation, with for tenants—and where the required reduction is relatively support from the Local Government Association and small, say 5 per cent of the rent. In such cases, good some impressive work once again from the Greater will toward good tenants, combined with the hassle London Authority. These bodies all note the likelihood and costs of replacing tenants, will incline many landlords of several thousand tenants facing homelessness. Apart to make modest rental concessions, particularly in not from this wrecking the life chances of the families raising rents as soon as the opportunity arises, but concerned, the charities point out that the extra costs there are definitely finite limits on the extent of this of homelessness could more than outweigh the housing restraint. Even a 5 per cent rent reduction will be a benefit savings. Homeless Link notes that, on conservative problem for a lot of landlords. Five per cent of rent estimates, if even one quarter of those identified as at might exceed the margin, the profit from letting, after severe risk were to become homeless, then all the gains taking account of mortgage repayments, management from the housing benefit cuts would be lost. and maintenance costs, an allowance for vacancies The charities also point out, as has the noble Lord, and so on. Some buy-to-let landlords with relatively Lord Knight, that a greater number—over 900,000—of high debts on their property could be in difficulty if tenants who stay put when their benefits are cut could they were to cuts rents by 5 per cent. Moreover, the be forced to find the balance from their very low figures in the DWP’s impact assessment indicate that a incomes: state pensions; incapacity benefits; jobseeker’s 5 per cent rent reduction would not be enough to close allowance; or, for a fifth or so of these tenants who the gap, to remove the new shortfall between benefit are in low-paid work, from their very modest earnings. and rent, in the great majority of cases. It would I do not believe it is the intention of Ministers to increase appear to cover less than 90,000 cases out of a total of the number of homeless households, which would, in well over 900,000. any case, be self-defeating and counterproductive, nor There is another reason to fear that landlords will do I believe that the Government intend to impoverish not implement the hoped-for rent reductions. Since nearly 1 million very poor households with the equivalent demand outstrips supply in so many areas, landlords of a cut in their pensions and other benefits of an can simply opt to reject those on benefit. Already a average of £12 a week for each household. If that was high proportion of landlords and their agents will not the outcome, set against the coalition Government’s accept those on HB. These tenants cannot put down a commitment that the effects of reducing the deficit deposit or pay rent in advance. Local authorities, should not fall disproportionately on those least able unhappily, often take some time to process HB to take the strain, then the housing benefit changes applications and early arrears can mount. Rent is paid would have to be deemed a terrible failure. on a four-weekly basis while landlords expect it on a calendar monthly basis and, however unfounded, there Rather, it is hoped that, away from the very high-value are fears by landlords and their agents that those on areas that claimants will have to leave, landlords will HB will be troublesome tenants. The compensation reduce rents to accommodate all or most of the fall in has been that LHA can pay up to the level of the housing benefit/LHA payments. If so, to a large extent middle rent for the area, the 50 per cent marker, but it will be landlords not tenants who take the hit. This now that the maximum is to be reset at 30 per cent, would certainly be a desirable outcome where landlords this advantage is lost. Where they can, it seems likely are abusing the HB arrangements. The analysis by the that more landlords and managing/letting agents will Department for Work and Pensions suggests that 13 per avoid letting to those in receipt of HB. I am told by the cent of the rise in housing benefit is attributable to staff in local authorities who seek to secure privately greedy landlords increasing rents to squeeze more out rented accommodation for vulnerable households in of the system. Thirteen per cent is not a huge proportion their area that previously helpful landlords are already of the rise in costs, but nevertheless, it is worth addressing. pulling back, even where the council guarantees the I think the new measures will indeed lead to some rent and gives back-up support for tenants. landlords reducing their rents. In some parts of the The underlying problem is, of course, the overall UK, particularly where unemployment has been very acute shortages of available homes. With more demand high and may go higher, a very high proportion of than supply, experts, such as Professor Michael Ball at tenants are in receipt of housing benefit. If landlords Reading University, predict rent rises, not rent reductions. are not to risk serious arrears, they will have to adjust Until mortgages are plentiful again without requirements to lower rents. In some places, current market conditions for large deposits, the private rented sector will have a mean that the alternative of selling the rented property ready market of young people who cannot buy. If into owner-occupation will not be an option. Landlords landlords stop letting to those on benefit, properties may be resentful, they may even lose money—I fear will be available to absorb some of this growing demand, they will not be investing and improving their but that would, in the absence of sufficient housing, properties—but, like it or not, they will have to go exacerbate the problems for those reliant on benefit. with the lower rents if that is all the tenants can pay. It is very far from certain that many landlords will Just how widespread will this be? In how many reduce rents, and it is possible that more landlords will cases will it be the landlord not the tenant who absorbs withdraw from letting to those in receipt of these the cost of the cuts? Talking to private landlords from lower benefits. Since we now rely on the private rented 751 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[24 JANUARY 2011] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 752 sector to house nearly a million poorer households, There is an agreement that the current expenditure this would be very bad news, but, as the Merits Committee trends, as shown in the impact assessment by the notes, the DWP’s impact assessments states that, DWP, are unacceptable and unsustainable. Continuing “it is impossible to quantify the indirect impact of the measures as we are from the evidence that we are given, private with any degree of certainty as it is not possible to predict the sector rents will be driven up, the gap between housing behavioural effects on tenants or landlords.” benefit paid in social housing and in the private housing It is for this reason that I have brought forward the sectors will be extended, and the difference between resolution in my name that is before your Lordships average earnings and private sector subsidised rents today. will be widened. That is unacceptable. We know from The resolution proposes a wholly independent, rigorous the figures that the average impact of these measures review reporting to both Houses of Parliament on the on households in the private sector will be £12 a week, impact of the HB changes: on children; on homelessness; but of course there are great disparities in that. The on whether mitigating measures, including the modest figure is £12 a week across the whole of Great Britain sums available in discretionary housing payments, are but if you look at the difference between Blackpool making a difference; on whether local authorities are and London, you get a huge variation. That was a being put under intolerable pressure, not least in handling figure which the previous Labour Government alighted the extra social and welfare costs if there is an influx on as one of the reductions they would make, but for a of low-income households into their area; and so on. much smaller group of people than that which is Thankfully, existing tenants are being given an extra proposed now. So it sounds remarkably like we are nine months before facing these HB changes, with moving in a direction in which people want to travel none affected before December 2012, so a first review but not necessarily at the speed at which everybody one year from now can cover only new lettings, not the wants to go. existing stock. The feared mass migration out of central There has been the critical Social Security Advisory London will not have begun in earnest before 2013 but Committee report and its priority is the impact of the I suspect it will become apparent quite early if landlords regulations. That is its job, not dealing with deficit are not reletting vacant properties to those on the new reduction. Nevertheless, the report quite rightly said, benefit levels, in which case the review would enable “Do not implement this, but if you are choosing to Government to take corrective action. We know from implement it, here is a range of things you should do the concessions made in response to the highly critical to make these changes work”. I am pleased that the Social Security Advisory Committee’s report that swift Government have accepted the majority of these, in action can be taken if required. particular the delaying and phasing for current recipients Last week I met the Minister and I believe he shares of housing benefit. some of my concerns. I am hopeful he will be willing There is a quite distinct issue relating to London in to make a significant statement today in response to this variation. One in four of housing benefit households the proposition in my resolution. An independent in London is affected by these measures and the report next year could provide the basis for the primary impact in London is that the average figure Government to make “in-flight” corrections to amend across London for the change in rent to be paid by or suspend some of these regulations and to prevent these allowances is £22. However, 17,000 of the the dramatic changes to the HB system, leading to a 21,000 losers as a result of a cap on the rent are potential national tragedy for so many low-income located in London, so there is a London issue which is households. almost unique within Great Britain. I read in the other Lord German: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, place the evidence given in the form of the committee Lord Knight, for his agreement that he is not going to report and the committee discussion and there was a pursue the annulment and also for his support of the sense that people were seeing the whole of Great noble Lord, Lord Best. The Motion will meet the problem Britain through the prism of London. That is a dangerous we are all facing—what might happen in the future. In process and we may have to look at London separately some ways, it is like trying to judge between those who because in the rest of Great Britain the average impact know the next winner of the Grand National and of these changes on rents is £9.84 a week. In a period those who believe that it is an art form to study the when landlords have low interest rates on mortgages, form and decide which direction to take. Essentially, this may be the right time for them to absorb this this whole issue rises or falls on an assessment of how change. the market will behave. I will return to the London problem later. First, I I want to consider the agreement between the former would like to look more closely at the impact this Labour Government and what the Government are figure of £9.84 will have on household rentals trying to do today. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, said around the rest of Great Britain. Essentially, the that we should go ahead with the £15 that was made difference of view which I hear on this issue is around available to people who could negotiate a smaller rent this central question. The noble Lord, Lord Best, said and we should take that away. That was a proposal it just now. Will landlords reduce their rents to meet that he quite rightly made while in government. There the new levels set by Government? This is fundamentally is a general agreement that the costs of local housing an issue about the operation of the private rented allowance and housing benefit must be reduced and sector market. contained. There is a question which we are all struggling The Government essentially influence about 40 per with about the speed with which we do it. There cent of rents in Great Britain. In terms of pure economics, probably will be a consensus in the overall ambition the state must surely have a prime influence on the but a difference in the speed by which we achieve that. level of general rents because it pays the rents of 753 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[LORDS] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 754

[LORD GERMAN] my life that I can remember; I would prefer not to 40 per cent of the properties. It is not quite a monopolistic move at all because it is such an unpleasant exercise. I situation, but the Government are a major purchaser suppose that there is a different quality to life in of tenancies in the country. London which means that people like to move around How has this market operated until now? On the more rapidly. one hand, it seems that tenants have found properties However we judge this matter, we have to recognise for rents at levels which they know the Government that the reason for pressure on the funding of private will pay; on the other hand, landlords have set their sector rents is a shortage of social housing in this rents at the level which the Government will pay. country. I hope that the Government’s ambitions for There is no incentive on either side to adjust or to deal the net number of new properties in the social sector with this matter. In straightforward terms, it is a will be achieved, but much more can be done in this market in which the principal and largest purchaser field by way of other arrangements with private funding. has not really had much influence over the price paid. Much more imaginative use of private funding can be Will the changes make a difference? I sincerely hope made to create more units of social sector housing. We so, but we are talking of market behaviour. It cannot need to dwell on that matter because this is an equation. be an exact science. That is why it is essential that the If we want to make sure that the balance of the spirit of the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Best, is equation is right, we need more social housing in our followed and a full evaluation and measurement of the country. We must remember above all else that people impact are carried out just as soon as the first complete need and deserve a proper roof over the heads. In all annual cycle of the new regime has ended. We need to the initiatives that we take to keep public expenditure know whether the desired changes which it is assumed under control, we must not lose sight of this fundamental will be brought about as a result of the measures have aspect of a decent society. taken place. The market is more likely to work in the direction The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, I recognise that the Government want if the state enters the with others who have spoken a need to reform the market as a negotiator. Currently, there is no incentive present arrangements for housing benefit but I also for the state to get the best rental price. We are talking express my concern about the measures that are before about an incentive that is, first, a copper-bottomed us. The noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Knight, guarantee of rental income, which the Government presented some alarming figures which, even if we can provide—the Government are backing the money perhaps dismiss the more extreme end, nevertheless being provided—and, secondly, a direct payment to give rise to considerable grounds for concern. the landlord if they accommodate the changes. That is The noble Lord, Lord Best, referred to a number of an important concession which the Government have charities that have supplied him with briefing papers; I made as a result of the report by the Social Security have been involved with a number of others. Housing Advisory Committee. Justice expresses fear that the arrangements being I welcome the additional funding for housing benefit proposed would significantly increase the number of specialists to intervene in negotiations with landlords, homeless people, particularly within London but elsewhere but I have to ask the Minister two questions. First, do in the country as well. those people have the right skills to enter a negotiation A reduction in housing benefit at a time when we market where previously they dealt with a different set are facing all the uncertainty and the outworking of of criteria and a different environment? Secondly, is the comprehensive spending review compounds the the funding which they are making available to enable complications of the system and risks therefore greater the negotiation to take place sufficient? harm being done to those who are most vulnerable. It The big question for London is: is there a ready is so difficult, as I think everyone who has spoken supply of non-housing benefit tenants ready to fill the already acknowledges, for us to assess the outcomes of properties if landlords are not prepared to reduce the proposals both for those on housing benefit and their rents? That is why I suppose that such a huge for others in the system. portion of the new funding for discretionary housing benefit and assistance is going to London. Will the 8pm Minister confirm that the Government will ensure The noble Lord, Lord German, focused very much that the most vulnerable are protected and recognise on the financial aspects of the market and what would the distinct market pressures which make London so happen to rents, and the effects therefore on the families different? who might have to bear the extra costs of the £22 here I accept, of course, that there is mobility of in London or the £9.84 elsewhere in the country. I have tenancies in London. As a relatively new Member here two comments to make about that. First, £9.84 may who has had to seek to rent a property in London not sound a lot of money. Certainly, some on housing during the week, I have found that tenancies move benefit are in employment, and perhaps some of them very quickly—you will not expect to take a long time could stretch to that amount—but “stretch” would be looking over a property as you might normally do in the operative word. Many others are not in employment, other parts of the country. A quarter of a million and the amount of disposable income after they have moves take place each year in inner London alone, met their outgoings and the demands on them is very which demonstrates to me that people seem to want to limited. They are stretched already. We need to be sure move rapidly. Having moved several times in my life, I that we have some imagination as to the impact—if I must say that it has been the most horrendous part of can put it to noble Lords like this—even of £9.84 a 755 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[24 JANUARY 2011] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 756 week, and how disastrous it could be for some households. Rather than repeating the comments that other It could be met only by them eating less or having less noble Lords have made far more eloquently—my noble on their fuel bill, or doing without some other major friend Lord Knight did a beautiful job of setting out thing that they need in their lives. the detail on this—I want only to look at what that My second point is that money of course drives might mean for a family, because it is very easy for us this, but the focus must not be just on the money. We to consider the policies without understanding the must also understand and try to see through the impact on individual families. consequences of these changes, which might be driven I spent some time running a charity that worked by finances but will have a huge impact on families, with single parents. A lot of the single parents who relationships and social groupings. As the noble Lord, came through the door would phone up when their Lord Knight, said, one consequence of the proposals world had suddenly fallen apart. Perhaps the husband would probably be that a lot of families would have to had left, or something had happened and the marriage move from their existing houses to other areas. If they or family had broken up. Often, a pattern would do so with young families and small children at a point follow from that. Usually, the mother would end up when they need stability in their lives, that could be with the children. She would often have been working, very damaging—and not only to them; it could have as would the father. When she had to do the childcare longer-term consequences. It could be damaging, too, alone she would find that she could not manage it and in that they may no longer be able to work where they do the same job, because that simply did not work, so were working before. she would often then give up the job. The pattern This could have a double effect by creating more would be that she would often move to be closer to her monochrome areas of our society. The areas that they own family—perhaps her own mother or father—who leave might become more monochrome, with more would help to share the childcare. Over time, she expensive homes and more rental homes for those who would rebuild her life and often end up getting a can afford them and who move in. Similarly, the areas part-time job with childcare and being helped by the to which they go might become more monochrome. family and friends in the neighbourhood. She was The big society at its best is also a very healthy society, usually able to do that only because of tax credits and which also means a mixed society. If the consequences housing benefit. Suddenly, the family would begin to of the movements that might come about because of be back together again. this are that different groupings become more monochrome, that is retrograde and potentially harmful Imagine what happens to that lone parent in that and damaging to the societies and communities in our situation if she suddenly finds that the rent on the land. family home which she has managed to establish can no longer be met by the local housing allowance. What I was grateful that the noble Lord, Lord German, does she do? The landlord might be kind enough to referred to the provision of social housing. I wanted to drop her rent, but what if he does not? She then has stress that as well, because part of the problem with two choices. Should she try to stay put and make up high rental is demand. If we are to address one piece the difference, when we already know from Crisis that of the picture, as we need to do to find a different way 48 per cent of people on the local housing allowance in which to organise and provide housing benefit, we already face a shortfall? She might already be trying to must look at the totality of the picture. That is why I top up the rent as it is. Even if the difference is only the support the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Best. £12 a week which the noble Lord, Lord German, Part of the totality must be the provision of more mentioned, that is a lot of money to someone on that housing and a greater emphasis on the supply of that kind of income. If you shop around, £12 a week can housing. buy a pair of children’s shoes or put a lot of food on In conclusion, I recognise the wisdom of the proposal the children’s table. At that level, £12 a week might and am grateful for it, and I hope that it will find simply be beyond her reach; it might as well be £1,200. favour because it will help us to address complex issues. We must let our judgment be driven not just by What does that lone parent do? Does she decide to the finances but by the family and social needs, and we move to a different area? In doing so, if she moves must emphasise the need for an increase in the supply from inner to outer London, for example, the children of housing. will certainly have to change schools, if they can find a place. In doing that, their schooling is disrupted and they lose contact with their friends. In many cases, the Baroness Sherlock: I shall pick up precisely where woman loses contact with her family. She might then the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford left not be able to travel back to the job. The travel costs off in looking at the impact on children and communities. might be too great or her own mother cannot mind the In preparing for this debate, in common with other children, which means that she cannot risk being late noble Lords I read briefings from a wide range of back as she has to be there in time to pick the children charities and was very grateful for them. I also read up from school. We can end up in a situation where the excellent report from the Social Security Advisory the children’s lives have been disrupted, the mother Committee, but probably the single most informative might be forced back on to income support, the family document that I have read so far has been the impact has been fractured and the children will suffer. The assessment from the DWP. I even thought of simply consequences are potentially significant. reading out sections of it in place of a speech, until it occurred to me that noble Lords might have read it I do not want to wave a shroud; that is not my already, but it is probably the most damning impact intention. I want to try to dismantle a policy from its assessment that I have ever read. larger scale to see what the impacts might be on an 757 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[LORDS] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 758

[BARONESS SHERLOCK] Lord Adebowale: My Lords, I support the very individual set of families. In fact, the impact assessment sensible proposals made by the noble Lord, Lord makes it very clear what the consequences are of some Knight. I spent a good chunk of my career working in of that dislocation. It talks about the evidence of what housing, on estates and in homelessness, and I am very happens to the educational attainment of children concerned about the impact of these changes on poverty who are moved—about the impact on the GCSE and on the Government’s attempts to reduce poverty points of those who are moved at key stages. It talks and reduce the Government’s deficit. The noble Baroness, about the dangers of overcrowding, because the alternative Lady Sherlock, set out very clearly the impact on for our lone parent is to stay put or perhaps to go to a individual families, and we know that transition affects smaller house, squeezing a family into a tiny flat. But poor families disproportionately more than richer families. then where do the children do their homework, as the The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford impact assessment points out? What are the consequences made the very strong point that these proposals not for that family? only have a financial impact on poor families; they also have an impact on social services and The other issue is the other wider impacts of a neighbourhoods, crime, mental health and substance choice such as this. What happens to the families who misuse. Throughout my career I have seen this impact have traditionally lived in a very mixed area, in the walk through the doors with the homeless and with way that the right reverend Prelate described? I visit those at risk of homelessness. people who live in Islington—I went to a church there—and was always hugely impressed that in so While I understand that the proposals of the noble much of London there are such areas, where rich and Lord, Lord Knight, stand no chance of going anywhere, poor live side by side. But where do they mix in they are actually worthy of careful consideration. We practice? I remember the vicar of Islington walking have not thought through the impact on families and me down a street to show me a beautiful Georgian on the societies in which they live—on social services, terrace on one side and an interesting and challenging on health, on mental health and on employment. 1960s council block on the other. He said, “You know, Given that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord the joy is that the people in the Georgian terrace look Knight, will not go through, the proposal of the noble out on the council block and the people in the council Lord, Lord Best, is second best—no pun intended. block look out on the Georgian terrace”. The real joy Actually, it was intended. If you happen to be one of was in fact that their bins were emptied by the same the families at risk—the majority of which, by the council service, that they went to the same GPs and way, are in employment, low-wage employment though that they shopped in the same local neighbourhood it is—it is not much comfort to be told, “Hang on a stores when they needed to. In other words, they minute, you will suffer for a year and then someone shared local services. One thing that has long been might pop along and do some research into the impact”. observed is that services for poor people become poor Frankly, it is one of those amendments that I am services, while one thing about having people in mixed forced to support. In conversation with the noble areas is that you have what I think a government Lord, Lord Freud, some time ago, I expressed my Minister memorably described as the sharp-elbowed concern that the Government have no plan B. It is no middle classes, who are there to make sure that those good making these swingeing cuts on the poor, who shared services are available to all and are protected do not have the broadest shoulders to carry the impact and developed. of the deficit, and not have a clear plan B. The case that I have described might be just one 8.15 pm family, but the impact assessment says that 450,000 of Even if we accept that we will not know, as the the households affected contain children. If 450,000 noble Lord, Lord German, pointed out, what the households with children are affected by these changes, impact of these cuts will be on actual families—no-one I very much hope that the Minister will be able to can see into the future—we know that the poor will consider the sensible suggestion from the noble Lord, suffer. We know where they will suffer, we know how Lord Best, and take his time to consider the impact of they will suffer and we know what the impact on two things. First, what will the impact be on families public services will be, but we do not have a clear with children? He should track what has happened to plan B. At best—that is another pun—the Government some of those families and look at how their lives have need to commit fully to the proposal by the noble changed. Secondly, I strongly urge him to consider Lord, Lord Best. how this interacts with the many other measures that the Government have taken through. Many of the changes seem to be almost arbitrarily imposed. Why reduce local housing allowance to the That single parent will already be facing cuts from 30th percentile, when in many areas the proportion of the Government in her childcare help and in the private sector properties rented by tenants receiving amount of money that she is allowed to earn on her the LHA is well over 30 per cent? The average is tax credits. She could already be facing a range of estimated at 39 per cent. Why cut LHA payments by other cuts and benefits. She is already in a context in 10 per cent for people on jobseeker’s allowance for which inflation is rising and the local housing allowance over a year when those who are in social housing or will be uprated only in line with the CPI, while VAT are supported by other members of their household and fuel bills have just gone up. These families are will be unaffected? All this has one key purpose, to much squeezed already. The very least we owe them is save money, but little thought appears to have gone to make sure that we do not take a step such as this into the multiple transferred costs that could be incurred without properly understanding the implications. by evicting up to 185,000 households. The cost in legal 759 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[24 JANUARY 2011] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 760 aid alone is estimated to reach between £3 million and I am glad that the Government are providing guidance £5 million per year, while the demand for temporary to local authorities because to me these three sentences accommodation is likely to cost between £61 million could mean three different things. I am not an expert and £121 million. That is before we even consider the in these matters, but they do not quite seem to hang impact on schools and social services in the areas that together. will have to absorb tenants who are priced out of parts While I am talking about welcome news, we must of the country, particularly London. I thank Alex not forget the two provisions in the original announcement Fenton of the Cambridge Centre for Housing and of, first, an additional bedroom to be included in the Planning Research for those figures. Homeless Link size criteria used to assess HB claims in the private has calculated that if a mere quarter of those who are rented sector for an overnight carer of a disabled identified as being at severe risk of homelessness lose person or someone with a long-term health condition their home, all estimated savings to the state will be and, secondly, a large increase in the discretionary lost. housing payments. Both those measures are very welcome. It is very easy to assign the cruelty to—and it is cruel if you are on the receiving end of these cuts and The $64,000 question remains, however, as all the of the complexity that will be imposed on already speakers so far have said: will these housing benefit stressed families and individuals—and to pray in aid, regulations mean that landlords will reduce their rents, the Government’s and the country’s financial position. thus bringing the huge housing benefit bill down, to Frankly, it is not good enough, especially a week or so general rejoicing by taxpayers and the Government, or after we watched the chief executive of Barclays Bank will it mean that not enough landlords will, or can in effect put two fingers up to the poor and to the rest afford to, reduce their rents low enough for LHA of us. It is not acceptable. One group is being treated claimants, that the discretionary housing payments very differently from another. We need some equality will be spread too thin to make much difference and of debate and of access to the good things in life, and I that therefore thousands of people will face eviction, hope that the Government will at least support with child poverty will increase and local authorities will enthusiasm the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Best. eventually have to pick up a very large bill? Many statistics have already been given and I will Baroness Thomas of Winchester: My Lords, it is no not add to them. We all know why the bill for housing secret that when these regulations were first announced benefit has ballooned—there is nowhere near enough I had deep concerns about them, as I made clear in the social housing throughout the country and so councils housing debate that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, have turned to the much more expensive private rented introduced at the beginning of last November. When sector, with buy to let becoming a popular way for the Social Security Advisory Committee’s very critical people with capital to cash in on the shortage of rental report was published, the Government modified their accommodation. While there may be a percentage of original proposals in two important ways, as we have greedy landlords who are able to charge unjustifiably heard: in relation to the timing of the changes and in high rents—the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred to allowing direct payments to landlords in certain them and gave a figure—is not the real truth of why circumstances. the HB bill is so high not that housing benefit has The nine months of breathing space for existing inflated rents but that there are huge numbers of claimants is welcome to give them more time to find low-paid and unemployed people who qualify for alternative accommodation if necessary, although it housing benefit? will be paid for by bringing forward the moving of LHA rates from the median to the 30th percentile for It is clear that, as my noble friend Lord German new claimants. Also delayed is the introduction of the has said, London with its high rents is in a category of cap on LHA payments and a reduction in the maximum its own, even though a lot of the boroughs are receiving number of bedrooms that a claimant is entitled to, the cushion of the bulk of the discretionary housing from five to four. Overall, the change in the phasing payments. To those of us who live and work in London, means that some claimants will be hit by the cut a year the mix of housing works to everyone’s advantage, as earlier than they might have expected, while others the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, said in her powerful will have a bit more time before the cuts bite. contribution. If a large number of the low-paid workforce Turning to the other concession, direct payments to who receive LHA are forced to move out even of landlords, I am glad that the Government have now Greater London, then everyone suffers, because life in agreed to widen the criteria that local authorities central London depends on low-paid workers; we do should consider in order for this to happen, although I in this House. Of course we all understand that low-paid find the wording of this concession quite convoluted— or unemployed people on housing benefit with large perhaps deliberately so, in order to give some families cannot expect to live for ever in high-end flexibility—so perhaps the Minister can help me. The houses or flats in central London, although I am quite wording is: sure that very few actually do. However, we know that a lot of families will be forced to move in the next “From April 2011, in cases assessed under the local housing allowance arrangements, local authorities will be able to pay couple of years, as the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, housing benefit direct to the landlord where they consider that it said. We just hope that this will not mean that they will would help the customer to secure a new tenancy or remain in be pushed out of the reach of good employment and their current home. It follows that the rent must be at a level that transport, thus exacerbating the situation. they can afford. We will work closely with local authorities to ensure that this provision is used in very specific circumstances The real worry about these regulations is that dropping where landlords are reducing rents to a level that is affordable for to the 30th percentile could have a devastating effect customers”.—[Official Report, 14/12/10; col. WA 170.] on these families all over the country, many of whom 761 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[LORDS] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 762

[BARONESS THOMAS OF WINCHESTER] increased rents but by increased demand for HB from find life a struggle even now. This regulation is the one more tenants in both the private and public sectors. that could cause evictions, particularly in housing hot Only 13 per cent of the increase in HB can be attributed spots outside London, such as Brighton and Cambridge, to private sector rent increases. In other words, the with landlords not having to reduce their rents because increase in the HB bill has not come about because they can always find someone not on housing benefit HB has driven up rents and, therefore, has sought to to pay the going rate. catch up with the rents that it has inflated. Instead, the What we need, and what I called for in our debate HB bill has risen because more and poorer people are in November, is what the noble Lord, Lord Best, calls claiming HB, including those in low-paid work. That for in his Motion: an independent review of housing is a fact. benefit in the private rented sector. I know that the The second statistic is also from the DWP. An Minister will say that this happens automatically in his Answer to a PQ in August 2009—I do not have later department, but we need an independent review to be figures—showed that 48 per cent, or nearly half, of all set up and to alert Parliament quickly if the worst those receiving local housing allowance had, on average, fears of some of the relevant organisations in this a shortfall of £23 a week. This was because their field, which have already been mentioned, are being contractual rent was higher than their HB. Some will realised. Many groups are warning of the dire have been in work, others on income support and so consequences of the effect of these regulations in on. I do not know how they made ends meet. For today’s difficult economic climate, particularly for single those in shared accommodation, paying single-room parents and disabled people. The noble Baroness, Lady rent, the HB research for the DWP showed that 87 per Wilkins, may say more about disabled people shortly. cent of young people faced a shortfall, on average, of What would reassure many of us who are concerned £35 a week. I dread what will happen now that we about these changes is to hear that the Government propose to raise the age at which single-room rent can will take swift action to alleviate the situation if they be claimed from 25 to 35. I repeat: 48 per cent found are wrong and the organisations are right. I look that their HB did not cover their rent. If the Minister forward to my noble friend’s reply. is right and their HB then did not press down on their contractual rent—however much the tenants would Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I declare an have wanted and needed it to—why does he think now interest as chair of Broadland Housing Association. I that by cutting HB 18 months later he will press their will not follow my noble friend Lady Sherlock, the contractual rent down? It is a triumph of hope over right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord history. It was not happening 18 months ago and Adebowale, in talking about the human stress, distress landlords tell us that it will not happen this time either. and misery potentially in waiting for so many thousands SSAC confirms this. Nine in 10 landlords will avoid of families with children in our country. Instead, I anyone on HB. Why? Because they can now let to want to do something different; I want to challenge other people at the rents that they seek to charge. In the very premises behind the Government’s strategy, other words, the Government do not control, as they which I think are false. believe they do, the rents of the private rented sector. It is a fallacy. Indeed, preliminary findings from current We have been here before, with the Housing Finance research suggest that, whether housing benefit claimants Act 1972 and especially in the late 1980s when the account for 20 per cent or 70 per cent of the private Tory Government again pressed up rents on the grounds rental market, it makes no difference at all to local rent that they should subsidise people, not property. We on levels. HB levels, and therefore the Government, do the Labour Benches pointed out then what would not shape the market, full stop. happen. The selfsame money that had been spent on new homes was now being spent on housing benefit, which in turn trapped people out of work and left us 8.30 pm with a shortfall in housing. Now the Government are Why is that? It is because it is a landlords’ market trying to rectify a problem of their own creation by and not a tenants’ market; it is, therefore, not a capping HB. They believe, falsely, that HB is driving Government’s market and not a HB market. Surveyors, up private sector rents, that the HB bill has grown letting agents and estate agents are reporting gazumping, because of those increased rents and that, by capping six to eight tenants after every property and sealed-bid HB, they will press down rents. rent offers. The British Property Federation tells us The second fallacy is that this policy is consistent that 150,000 extra tenants will enter the private rental with universal credit—a policy for which I applaud the sector next year, pushing up rents even further. Even noble Lord, Lord Freud—which seeks to bring more where landlords in the past might have accepted some people into the labour market. On the contrary, I fear limitation of their rents if they were gaining capital that these HB caps, together with the unpleasant and growth, this, too, is no longer the case. Those on bizarre policies of Mr Pickles, will have the reverse current HB levels struggle to find a home. What will effect. Let me unpick this a little. The Minister says happen? that as 40 per cent of the tenants of private rented Like the noble Lord, Lord German, I want to talk a sector properties receive HB—a rather disputed little about the situation outside London. I have no figure—HB rates determine rents. However, he will be doubt that the situation in London is harshest because aware, I am sure, of two very simple statistics from his rents are highest, but some of the Government’s own department. First, as quoted by the noble Lord, proposals—the move to the 30th percentile, the threat Lord Best, the DWP’s own figures show that the to those on JSA and requiring single people up to increase in housing benefit has been caused not by 35 to share a house with others—will have a severe 763 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[24 JANUARY 2011] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 764 effect on those outside London. Only the first of the lines outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Best. If the these—the rents covered by HB to be reduced from Government are right, they have nothing to fear from the 50th percentile to the 30th percentile—is in these the noble Lord’s Motion. If the Government are wrong, regulations, but they affect 83 per cent of those on the distress caused to thousands of families with children LHA, 40,000 of whom will lose £20 and more per will not bear thinking about. week as a result of that change. What does that mean? Perhaps I may say one final word to the noble Lord, It means that instead of HB ensuring that private Lord Freud. The policies of his right honourable tenants can afford 50 per cent of properties, they will friend Mr Pickles will undermine much of what the be able to afford only 30 per cent of properties. noble Lord seeks to achieve. Mr Pickles proposes that But it is worse than that. Benefits, we are told, almost all social housing new build will come from the including HB, will in future increase by CPI. CPI revenues from increasing rents for new tenants to includes only 6 per cent for rent—rather less, I think, 80 per cent of market levels in new builds and re-lets. than is allowed for restaurants and cafes. It is not a Yet almost every new tenant coming into my housing sensitive indicator. What does that mean for these association is on HB. Indeed, the only sensible strategy regulations? Let us look again at history, rather than for housing associations is to ensure that those who relying on hope. In the last decade for which we have will always remain on benefit—including low-income statistics—1997 to 2007—CPI rose by 20 per cent and pensioners, those with disabilities and those always rents by 70 per cent. In each year, CPI was outpaced marginal to the labour market—go into the most by 5 per cent a year. Project that forward—indeed, this expensive intermediate-rent properties, because HB very weekend Savills has reported that it expects rents will cover the bill, while those who hope to get back to increase by 7 per cent next year, 6.5 per cent the year into work go into the cheaper properties, where HB is after and 5.5 per cent the year after that. HB, instead less of a barrier, because you need cheap rents if you of covering the 30 per cent of properties that the are to get back into work. This is perverse. Those who Minister proposes, will, the following year, on Savills’s seek to help themselves need to live in the cheapest figures, cover only about 25 per cent of properties, the property, because only in that way can they spring the year after 20 or 21 per cent and the year after that—on housing benefit trap. Mr Pickles’s policies will undermine a smaller base—some 15 per cent. Within five years, the universally credited project of bringing people only 10 per cent of properties will be affordable on HB back into the labour market. if these proposals continue. Even if a few landlords What about the benefit bill? That, too, will soar, accept reduce rents in year one to avoid voids or thanks to Mr Pickles’s proposals. Inside Housing,a because they rate the quality of their tenants and so magazine that I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Freud, on, they will not be able to afford to do so in year two, reads, has calculated this weekend that, instead of year three or year four as the gap between the rent housing benefit being cut by £2.26 billion, as the DWP levels chargeable and CPI and HB widen. In some hopes, footing the HB bill for Mr Pickles’s intermediate places where there is even higher demand, it is likely rents will actually force the HB bill to increase by that HB will cover few, if any, properties. It is estimated £1.56 billion. The DWP’s benefit bill will be paying for that by 2020 not a single two-bedroom flat in Manchester Mr Pickles’s capital programme. It is a brilliant policy. will be available for rent. We know the quality of what In the light of this perversity, there will be worse will be left. housing for private tenants, reduced stock for private The Minister places much weight, I suspect, on the tenants and deep financial hardship for private tenants, discretionary housing payments. My authority— yet there will be increased housing benefit bills, along Norwich—had £29,000. It ran out in November this with reduced incentives to work. This set of policies is year. The calculations are that, even with the tripling an indecent mess, in which the bill, not just in money, of the sum to some not-very-generous £60 million, it but in hardship, stress, grief and distress, will be paid will barely help 6 per cent of those on housing benefit. by many thousands of families in this country. I hope I want the noble Lord, Lord Freud, to do two that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, will accept the things today. First, I want him to give the House an Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best. I assurance that every two years the local housing allowance hope, too, that the Minister will, when we consider the figure will be recalculated to reflect the 30th percentile welfare reform Bill, be able to accept amendments that rents and not be allowed to drift lower in line with the will tackle some of the dreadful implications and the CPI. If the Government believe that from October this false premises that lie behind this strategy. year 30 per cent is the right figure, they cannot also believe that the right figure in two years’ time will be The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I know that everyone 20 per cent. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord is waiting for the Minister’s response to this debate, so Freud, who is an honourable man, will want to hold I will be brief. I support my noble friend Lord Best’s firm to his policy intention. That means rebasing the Motion, and wish to speak on two issues. One is the figure at least every two years. I want a commitment, availability of social housing and the other is the child please. protection issue, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Knight, Secondly, like many other noble Lords, I want the my noble friend Lord Adebowale, and other speakers. Minister to keep his policies under review. I am sure I join the consensus of concern in this area. that he will say, as I would have done in his place, “We The noble Lord, Lord German, raised the question always keep everything under review all the time”. of the availability of social housing. Most of us can However, precisely because the Social Security Advisory agree that it is a tragedy that in this country we have Committee regards these policies as high risk and failed to invest in good social housing for our people. I deeply undesirable, we need a report published along visited recently in Walthamstow a mother with a young, 765 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[LORDS] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 766

[THE EARL OF LISTOWEL] I am a Londoner and I believe that London is a six week-old infant who was sharing the house, the special case. The mayor may have been attacked for bathroom and the kitchen with five other households. some of the statements he made—he was regarded as We have let such families down badly. I have visited having over-reacted—but, on the other hand, he has a private housing which is being used to fill the gap in point. There are many areas of London, including the Redbridge and some of it is of appalling quality. We one in which I live, which have changed dramatically have let these families down by not investing and not in the past 20 or 30 years. They have been developed thinking strategically about securing sufficient social and upgraded. I have lived there for 40 years, and it housing supply. The concern, in a sense, is that this was relatively inexpensive when I moved there, but it will add insult to injury: we have let these families no longer is. It is desperately overpriced. Rents are down and we may yet let them down further. I strongly impossible, except for well-off people. support my noble friend in his call for a considered If the arrangement is that benefits in future should assessment of the impact of this change. be related to the market rent, many people will be The noble Lord, Lord Knight, spoke about the unable to afford the resulting rent without the appropriate impact on children’s services of the migration of families benefit. Such people will have no alternative but to from one area to another. Among other local authorities, move. The mayor made that point strongly in his he mentioned Haringey. Your Lordships may recall statement. It is true that people will be unable to go on from the report of my noble friend Lord Laming into living there if rent is related in some way to the market the death of Victoria Climbié what he discovered rate. That would be impossible. A number of speakers about the state of the social services department in have already referred to what might happen in such Haringey. Among other things, there was a shortage circumstances and the social results of such an of social workers and a high number of unaccompanied arrangement. People will have no alternative but to asylum-seeking children entering the local authority, uproot and move to different places, where there may putting an additional and unexpected burden on the be overcrowding and other undesirable effects on their children’s services. Social worker managers said that it health and that of their families. became like a service production line. Social workers For those reasons, I hope that your Lordships will were overloaded and Victoria Climbié’s social worker, agree at least to support the amendment tabled by the Mrs Arthurworrey, had far above her maximum noble Lord, Lord Best. I certainly do and I hope that case load. This was the context of what happened to everybody else feels the same way. Victoria Climbié and the terrible fate that befell her. I urge your Lordships not to forget what happened in 8.45 pm that case. Baroness Wilkins: As heralded by the noble Baroness, It would serve the Government’s interests well if Lady Thomas, I will concentrate on the situation they were to consider carefully the impact of these regarding disabled people. In recent years, disabled changes on children’s services. If something goes wrong people have been given hope that we will achieve and children’s services become overburdened and social equality by 2025, but with these regulations we see yet workers cannot answer the needs, the media will again that the Government are imposing cuts that will understandably be very scathing about what they see disproportionately affect disabled people. That might as the roots of such problems. It might be unhelpful to not be the intention but it is the effect. the Government in the longer term if it seems that the policy on which they are now embarking might lead to Disabled people are the group most likely to be the failure of services and the death of a child or some dependent on benefits, so the most likely to be affected other outcome. I strongly support my noble friend’s by these cuts. Only half of disabled people of working Motion and I look forward to the Minister’s reply. age are in work compared with 80 per cent of non-disabled people, and the poverty rate among disabled people is double that of the rest of the population. As we have heard, the likelihood is that significant numbers of Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, it may not people will be forced to move. Being one of the poorest be part of our convention to challenge regulations in groups, disabled people are more likely to face this this way but we are not living in conventional times. threat than others. The Minister has repeatedly implied We are faced with a determined attempt by the that this is no problem as people are constantly on the Government to undermine the welfare society with move. What understanding does the Minister have of which we have lived since the end of the last war and what that means for disabled people? to replace it with something called the big society—hence First, for physically impaired people there is the the attempt to change benefit provision without regard major issue of finding accessible accommodation. The to what this will mean for many vulnerable people. paucity of housing stock which meets disabled people’s This is the case with housing benefit. Many people needs is a disgrace and far too little is being done have been kept from desperate poverty and even about it. Not only that, the actual process of moving homelessness by the existence of this benefit. Among will be difficult for many who are physically disabled them are many single parents, mostly women, and it is or who have mental illness. Secondly, disabled people surely in our interests that such women should be able are likely to be more reliant on informal support from to bring up and support their children. Often they neighbours, friends and family. These networks are have poorly paid part-time jobs and some of the built slowly and cannot be turned on and off like a tap. difficulties that such women and their families face However, if disabled people are forced to move, the have already been demonstrated to us very dramatically dislocation will inevitably mean increased isolation by one of the previous speakers in the debate. and result in more reliance on the statutory agencies 767 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[24 JANUARY 2011] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 768 and charities. Related to that is the fact that existing also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Best, who admirably relationships with health and social services will be set the scene. Given the expert that he is, we would broken so there will be additional costs of re-assessment expect nothing else. and re-establishing the support to be borne by the The politics of this are not hard to discern. Those statutory services. What assessment has been made of of us who have been around long enough to remember what it will cost the state in forcing disabled people to the introduction of housing benefit in 1988 can see the move as a result of these regulations? Treasury’s fingerprints all over these cuts which have The Minister may say that the increase in discretionary been on Treasury shelves since the income support housing payments will meet our concerns but the system was changed in the welfare reform Act of 1986. increase is nowhere near sufficient to support all those Given the speed with which certainly the initial tranche who need it. Disabled people will be only one of the of changes were introduced, some of which are reflected vulnerable groups in need of this funding as Leonard in the statutory instruments we are discussing, they Cheshire Disability has pointed out. On the brighter could have been given no other thought than the side, I welcome the Government’s move to allow an Treasury insisting that DWP Ministers had to find extra bedroom for those who need an overnight carer. changes. Cuts elsewhere will mean that this is not as beneficial as it sounds. RADAR has been contacted by Ann—not As I keep saying, the noble Lord, Lord Freud, is a her real name—who was given housing benefit and the national treasure given that he is the architect of the second bedroom rate for a live-in carer. As a result, her universal credit, the principle of which I absolutely mother bought a two-bedroom property with a mortgage support. However, he had to pay a price for that. I well for Ann and her live-in carer to rent. So far, so good, understand the concessions that have to be made but Ann has had problems getting somebody to live in. between departments. Therefore, I do not blame my As a result, the council reduced the second-bedroom noble friend for what we are facing. However, the rate to a first-bedroom rate on the ground that it was noble Lord, Lord Knight, was right to refer to the not the main residence of the live-in carer. Now Ann £15 excess. That was very welcome because if there is a cannot pay her mother the rent that she owes, and so feeling across the House that constructive measures her mother cannot pay the mortgage. This has left can and should be taken to limit some of the damage both of them in extreme financial hardship and her referred to in many eloquent speeches this evening, mother now has to look after Ann at night as well. that strengthens my noble friend’s hand in making representations to the department. In any case, this The severe cuts being imposed on local authorities game does not finish this evening; it will be a long have resulted in some appalling decisions, with local journey. Iterations of these cuts will be introduced authorities trying to cut overnight carers and forcing over a period of years. Therefore, we have a little time people to use incontinence pads instead. Such was the to look at what is going on. We are not, to quote a case last year when the former ballerina Elaine McDonald, phrase, lashed to the mast; at least, I would not like to who was not incontinent but just needed help getting think that we are. to the loo, took the royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea to court when it imposed this cut. She lost the If the Motion moved by the noble Lord, Lord Best, case. Does this mean that there will be an inevitable is accepted, and as long as the Minister for Welfare domino effect with cuts by social services resulting in Reform is prepared to say that it is not just restricted the loss of the extra bedroom allowance? Will the to the regulations, which are only the start of a long Minister give the House an assurance that this will not journey which will make considerable changes, some be the case and that if a person is assessed as needing of which will get considerably more acute come 2013, overnight care, they will receive the extra bedroom the House will have done a valuable piece of work. allowance? The Minister must also understand that he has to I regret that the noble Lord, Lord Knight, will not respond with a sense of responsibility, from an adult press his Motions but I urge all noble Lords to support point of view, by being very firm about his assurances the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best. about what will be reviewed and reported, and how, Will the Minister agree to commission primary research when and why. We need to know what we are being to monitor and evaluate the impact on disabled people asked to support. in particular within the year, given that disabled people The point was made eloquently by the noble Baroness, are likely to be disproportionately affected by these cuts? Lady Hollis, but I have always felt that housing policy driven by housing benefit is completely crackers. It has Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope: My Lords, it is always all got out of kilter. We all need to step back to a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins. consider some of the excellent work done by John Her personal experience and powerful testimony are Hills in his excellent report, Ends and Means, and the always of benefit to the House. We are very pleased Kate Barker recommendations of 2004—all a bit long in to listen to what she had to say. However, I do not the tooth now, but the direction of travel necessary agree with the last point she made because, in the long term is all there. That work can be built on politically, it is absolutely apposite that the noble in future. Lord, Lord Knight, took the decision that he did to The private rented sector is not a place for long-term, leave a Division for now. That was the right thing to low-income households’ housing needs to be met. It is do and the debate benefited from it. It certainly makes a device that should be for another segment of our it easier for people like me, who agree with a lot of the society altogether. We have let it get out of control in a analysis and share a lot of the concern, to keep the way that is difficult to justify. Like colleagues, I find it pressure on the Minister for Welfare Reform. I am difficult to be sure that the savings set out in these 769 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[LORDS] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 770

[LORD KIRKWOOD OF KIRKHOPE] whole of the social rented sector. That will be a plans will be realised as they are expected to be without dangerous moment for which we must make appropriate unintended consequences. It is not just the June 2010 provision. Budget proposals or the spending review proposals—as, My fourth point is that the long-term costs of again, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, said, it is the migration have to be monitored. We have had evidence universal credit changes, which are profound. of the consequences of migration and displacement, The House can be reassured that it will get a chance and any review that is worth its salt or worth having at to come back to some of these issues. I give an all must take that into consideration—even if it only undertaking to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that if begins to look at the methodology of assessing the we do not get a proper review or if we get a proper effects of migration and displacement—before we can review but a red traffic light on the basis of the red, be confident that we know what we are doing. amber and green system of risk assessment on some of My half point concerns non-dependant deductions. these issues, I will happily consider joining him in the It is completely impossible to justify a 27 per cent Lobby if the Government do not measure up to the increase in non-dependant deductions for the next requirements, which are felt on all sides to be necessary, three years with no system for determining why that before we can go home this evening satisfied that we figure is chosen. As far as I understand it, the Government have done our job properly. are saying, “Oh well, it hasn’t changed since 2001”. I conclude by mentioning four—well, four and a Even if you took CPI, RPI or any combination and half—things that I want in the review. The first has compounded the figures, you might get a 30 per cent been discussed earlier. I want to know exactly what increase over that period in terms of the impact on proportion of the market the Government expect to non-dependant charges. However, it is not acceptable be accessible to people who are on local housing to invent something called an “index of eligible rents”, allowance. I do not believe that the proportion of to fix it at 27 per cent and impose it over a three-year 30 per cent will hold. Once it is indexed to CPI, there is period. This is not part of these regulations; it is part no real expectation that across the country LHA clients of the operating benefit, which is why the Government will be able to access 30 per cent of the market. That is do not need to justify it either to the SSAC or to my view in London and other areas. anyone else. It is completely indefensible and I cannot The Government need to explain what proportion understand why the non-dependant charges are being of the private rented sector they eventually expect the changed in this way. changes to make available to the client group. I think The House owes a debt of gratitude to all those that the market will fragment. I think that the pressure who have provided briefings—in particular, the Social coming into the private rented sector is likely to segment Security Advisory Committee. Sir Richard Tilt is a into a binary system where people who are unable to wise man. He has a difficult job but he provides get on to the first rung of the owner-occupation evidence in which I have confidence. That, together ladder will be in a much more advantageous place. with the Shelter report and the work of the Select There are many more of them. The evidence that went Committee, demonstrates to me beyond peradventure into the DWP Select Committee report indicates that that there is work to be done here. Risks are being run there is enough pressure there to keep rents rising and and, unless we carry out a serious review, obtaining that demand will increase. There is a real risk that the evidence in which we can be confident, we will be sector will split. That will be made worse after 2013. selling this very vulnerable client group short in the future, and I do not want that to happen. 9pm Secondly, on housing and homelessness, we need to make sure that the homelessness assessment that we Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: My Lords, are making in this review is not limited merely to this has been quite a long discussion but I would say statutory cases; it must include non-priority cases as that its impact on our communities is as important as well. I have to say that as a Scot because there is a what we have been discussing in this House over the long-standing commitment by the Scottish Government past two weeks. to abolish priority cases from 2012. Therefore, there is Of all the government cuts, the ones in this area are a devolution dimension to some of this, and it risks probably the cruellest. They affect people’s homes, undermining the devolution settlement if we do not where they live and how they live, and how communities get a proper review that accommodates not just Scotland operate. Indeed, if a decision in this House were based but Northern Ireland as well. I know that the Minister on merit, the Motions of my noble friend Lord Knight is sensitive to that because he has had some would carry the day in this Chamber. The Minister correspondence on it, but it is a very important point. may have the comfort of getting votes from those Thirdly, with regard to the statutory definition of around him but I cannot convince myself that all homelessness, we need some assurances about temporary members of the coalition—I am looking particularly accommodation and the knock-on effect that the housing at the Liberal Democrat Benches—are sitting comfortably benefit changes we are making will have on some of while supporting this policy. That is based on the the local authority arrangements for setting up placement many debates that we have had in this House in the agreements on long-term leasing. If we do not do that, nearly 20 years in which I have been a Member. it will be very difficult to predict the chances of local I can picture a House that did not have a coalition authorities being able to manage their caseloads. All but would be faced with support from the Lib Dem that will get worse when the single room rent and the Members. It is also telling that the Minister, who I under-occupation rule changes come in in 2013 for the know will put up a brave fight for his Government’s 771 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[24 JANUARY 2011] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 772 policy, must be feeling very isolated. Not one member sought to do this before the election, and some noble of the coalition has stood up in this debate in support Lords may recall that one party represented here was of the Government’s policy. I think that speaks volumes quite opposed to that. I think it is right now to remove about the many Members on the Benches opposite. that excess. I will support, and I hope the Minister will support, Others have explored the thrust of these orders. the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best, The most damaging are the setting of the local housing who has enormous experience and knowledge of the allowance at the 30th percentile of rents in each broad housing sector and communities. In this rather lengthy rental market area and the introduction of absolute debate, we have not covered other areas of the impact caps relating to the number of bedrooms in a property. of this policy. Naturally, the House has as a priority The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, asked whether the the impact on single parents and other people in our Minister could say what proportion of the rental community who have the narrowest shoulders with market is in fact available to housing benefit claimants. which to bear the implications. However, I suggest I understand that the 30th percentile would mean, at that this has enormous economic implications, too. least on day one, that 30 per cent of rents would We have a shortage of housing in this country; the potentially be affordable. It does not mean that 30 per impact of this policy will be that, in three or four cent would be available, and once we move to uprating years’ time, that shortage will have increased and will by CPI, not even that first proposition would hold be extremely costly to rectify. true. It also means, without being too emotional about it, the increasing ghettoisation in our cities, London Who bears the cost of the benefit savings is at the most of all. How will our businesses be able easily to heart of the debate we are having. Will it fall wholly or get labour when many people in their community have mainly on landlords or on tenants who are, by definition, had to move outside of the city because they could not the poor? In considering these matters, we need to be afford the rents inside? So this is a very far-reaching mindful that they are just part of a package of measures policy; it is not about simply taking an average of aimed at cutting the cost of housing benefit. Still to £9 out of someone’s weekly income. It has a much come are increases in non-dependant deductions, the more far-reaching impact than that. uprating of LHAs by CPI rather than by actual I hope that the Minister will accept the Motion of movements of rents, the docking of 10 per cent for the noble Lord, Lord Best—second best though it may those on JSA for more than 12 months and the be, and I think it is. The wording is quite specific, and I extension of the single room rate for individuals up to know the department will carry out a review annually: the age of 35. that is its responsibility. But the Motion of the noble The need to tackle the budget deficit is acknowledged, Lord, Lord Best, covers quite specific areas: children, which is why we accept and, indeed, initiated the homelessness and the resources that local authorities withdrawal of the £15 excess, but the speed and depth can allocate to this important area. of the cuts proposed is not something we support, as If a citizen does not have a home, he does not have my noble friend has explained. The distribution of the anything. Therefore, I hope the Minister will accept cuts, which the IFS analyses will mean that by 2013-14 the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Best, there will be an increase in absolute poverty by 300,000 and that this House, operating at its best, as it usually children and 200,000 working-age parents, largely driven does, will monitor the policy very closely and debate it by the housing benefit cuts, is simply not acceptable. as often as is necessary, until we rectify some of the The DWP issued an impact assessment in November, cruelty we now face. together with an equality impact assessment. My noble friend Lady Sherlock spoke with some passion about this. The DWP suggests that it cannot assess the Lord McKenzie of Luton: I support the two Motions behavioural effects of the housing benefit proposals, moved by my noble friend Lord Knight of Weymouth although it provided an assessment on the assumption and that moved by the noble Lord, Lord Best. The that housing choices on rent levels would be unaffected. noble Lord, Lord Best, anticipates a significant statement As we have heard, it estimated that households would from the Minister, and I look forward to that as well. lose £12 a week on average, but declared itself unable If it were to signify the withdrawal of these orders at to estimate the number of households that may move. the twelfth hour, the Minister would become an even In contrast, Shelter estimated that 68,000 to 134,000 greater national treasure than that described by the would move nationally, and the GLA estimated that noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, but I do not hold my some 9,000 households may need to move in London. breath. My noble friend was right to signify that he was not In the context of our debates, £12 is sometimes not going to press his Motions. In many ways, it would be seen as a meaningful figure, but the right reverend good to test the view of the House to see if we could Prelate the Bishop of Hereford brought us down to stop these orders in their tracks, but I think it has earth on that, as did my noble friend Lady Sherlock helped the tenor of our debate, as the noble Lord, who said that it is better to talk of terms of a pair of Lord Kirkwood, has said. Of course, if we did defeat shoes or enough food on the table. Excluding the the orders, we would have to carve out, perhaps through removal of the £15 a week excess, the impact assessment the welfare reform Bill, those two parts of the order still shows that 68 per cent of LHA claimant households that we do support, as my noble friend has said: the will lose on average £10 a week and that losses for provisions relating to carers and an additional room those in five-bedroom accommodation will average being allowed, and the removal of the £15 excess. We £74 a week. 773 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[LORDS] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 774

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] their housing opportunities on the 30th percentile, will Another consequence the impact assessment this not have the effect of bunching claimants around acknowledges but does not quantify is the prospect of fewer properties, again potentially putting upward increased homelessness. It also acknowledges that local pressure on rents? authorities have a duty to find school places for children The House of Commons Work and Pensions moving into their area and that that can lead to Committee considered a range of submissions on the increased costs and that children who experience private rented sector’s response to these reforms. The disruption in their schooling may do less well than Resolution Foundation argued: would otherwise be the case. It recognises that there “Many low earners are already experiencing difficulties accessing may be additional burdens on local authorities when the PRS [private rental sector] due to poor local supply, lack of families move into an area requiring a care-and-support decent accommodation and few landlords willing to let to this package, and for disabled people, as we have heard, market. The Government’s proposed changes to Local Housing the DWP states that the LHA proposals could reduce Allowance will further reduce choice for low earners and may options to help independence and lead to the loss of encourage landlords to stop letting to this group entirely”. informal carers and support networks. They are retrograde The Building of Social Housing Foundation submitted provisions indeed, as explained by my noble friend on the following lines: Lady Wilkins. For individuals in work, an enforced “As tenants’ benefits payments seem even more uncertain … move could extend their commute to their place of the ability of private landlords to finance the acquisition and work. improvement of homes may be hindered. Private landlords may There is a list of probable consequences, but there is decide to stop renting to Housing Benefit recipients altogether if no fundamental assessment of or research into the they can find alternative tenants”. extent to which these circumstances will arise or into The Residential Landlords Association argued: how people’s lives will be affected. There is just a cruel “The shortages of available affordable accommodation, with acceptance of the traumas that these proposals will the problems facing the owner/occupier market, are one of the visit on poor families and the damage they will inflict reasons why the private rented sector is now such an important on them, their families and their communities. All of expanding sector”. this has to be considered in the context of 48 per cent This could mean that claimants of housing benefit will of people on LHA already facing shortfalls between be squeezed out of the private rented market. The their benefit and their rent. It is inevitable that people BPF criticised the Government’s own impact assessment having to move, homelessness increasing and debt for failing to provide any consideration of the wider rising will become a reality. The Government assert property market. It concluded: that these matters will be mitigated principally by “A significant proportion of LHA claimants, probably more downward pressure on private sector rents, by transitional than half, live in areas of high demand for housing and therefore relief, by households choosing more appropriate are going to find it difficult to compete for available homes”. accommodation, and by additional funding for A study suggested: discretionary payments. “Landlords may be willing to accept falls in rents ... if the loss in immediate rental yield is compensated for by strong expectation 9.15 pm of capital yield. However, many independent forecasters expect weak growth in house prices in the near future”. Transitional relief is welcome as far as it goes, but as Steve Webb said in another place when these orders The Government have put a lot behind the argument were debated, no new resources of any magnitude are that when you are a 40 per cent purchaser, you are being made available. The relief extended to existing changing the terms of trade because there is nowhere claimants is to be funded out of accelerated pain for else to go. Shelter points out: new claimants, including those low-income families “By the Department’s own estimations almost 50% of claimants either in or out of work. How does it help with work make up a shortfall between what they get in payments and what they pay in rent”. incentives in the transition when the cost of trying employment but not succeeding could be returning to The BPF, when expressing the view that downward a more draconian LHA regime? The additional funding pressure on rents would be limited, stated: for discretionary payments is again to be welcomed, “So, it would simply be a small stone in the Atlantic. There is but it is a fraction of the money which these changes this huge tsunami of different people trying to get into the private are to withdraw from the system. In so far as downward rented sector at the moment”. pressure on rents is concerned—the nub of the debate—to Direct payments to landlords would lower risks to rest one’s case on a certainty that this will happen in a landlords and could lead to lower rents. However, it comprehensive way is, on the basis of the evidence, seems that this could not be delivered sustainably once speculative, to say the least. the universal credit arrives. Nevertheless, adopting the What are the pressures on private sector rents? We best practice of some local authorities—Edinburgh know that in the decade to 2009, the number of was cited in the evidence—could go some way towards households in England increased by 7 per cent or encouraging landlords to continue serving LHA clients. 1.3 million. This is a trend which, because of increasing On the one hand, the proposals recognise the range longevity and changing lifestyles, is likely to continue. of negative consequences which will flow from the The dramatic fall-off in mortgage lending and the changes to LHA without a full assessment of their huge cuts in capital financing for social renting households extent; on the other, the Government place their faith will mean that the private rented sector will bear the in substantial mitigation because of downward pressure strain for some time to come. To the extent that HB on rents, which has not been demonstrated to be a claimants do what the Government hope and focus probable outcome. It is time to think again. 775 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[24 JANUARY 2011] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 776

The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I apologise. I more than they pay in rent. It was introduced to omitted to declare my interest as a landlord. I do so encourage a process of negotiation between those who now. are renting and landlords, but it does not seem to have had that effect, so there does not seem to be much The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, point in paying those figures. Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): My The final element that we have been discussing Lords, this has been an important and interesting tonight is the adjustment of the local housing rate debate. I commend particularly the noble Lords, Lord from the median to the 30th percentile. Overall, there Knight of Weymouth and Lord Best, on bringing has been a lot of scaremongering generally, and a little forward these Motions and securing this debate. I of that tonight—and some false reporting about the shall try to answer as many as possible of the points measures, although there has not been that tonight. raised, but, since there was an awful lot of them, I may Some estimates of the number of people who will be not cover absolutely everything. made homeless are, quite frankly, ridiculous. It is Perhaps I may first put the debate into context and simply irresponsible to suggest that thousands on explain why the statutory instruments are essential to thousands of people will be made homeless and will advance the changes that we have planned. Housing have to leave the capital in droves, as some have said. I benefit increases have been quite startling, as a number welcome the opportunity to put the record straight of noble Lords have pointed out. During the last and to respond to the concerns raised today. 10 years, housing benefit expenditure as a whole has nearly doubled in cash terms from £11 billion to First, I shall address what is essentially a London £21.5 billion in the current year. Only £2 billion of this issue, surrounding the maximum weekly rates of local increase is due to caseload. About £5 billion is due to housing allowance that we will apply from April. They general price inflation, but, most importantly, £4 billion are still extremely generous rates. It is still far more is due to growth in private and social rents over and than the vast majority of people pay out—at the rate above general inflation. Private rents for benefit recipients of four bedrooms and £400 and more than £20,000 a have risen in real terms 10 per cent more rapidly than year, a typical family would need to earn £80,000 a rents in the general market. These are exactly the sort year to be able to afford that kind of rent. of increases that we are seeking to contain. Without any reform, expenditure is forecast to be £24 billion by These reforms are not about excluding benefit recipients 2014-15. from the nicest areas, as some have argued. We are It was imperative that we acted swiftly to stop the simply ensuring a fair deal for the taxpayer. The runaway costs of housing benefit, those costs having simple truth is that individuals who claim housing been allowed to rise without restriction year after year. benefit according to local housing allowance rules As we made clear in the June Budget last year, welfare should face similar choices to those people in low-paid reform savings play an important role in reducing the work. There is simply no reason why we should see overall budget deficit. The changes introduced by the people moving vast distances, and no mass moves out statutory instruments alone add up to £1 billion by of the south of the country. In all but three of the 2013-14. most central areas of London, at least 30 per cent of properties will be affordable within local housing allowance We must be fair to the taxpayer. It is not right that rates. I shall just explain that figure, because there has families who work hard to pay their own rent have to been quite a lot of misunderstanding about it. The pay even more so that those on housing benefit can survey is based on the properties that are not in large live in homes that they could not think of affording. occupied by recipients of housing benefit—so it is Some of the rates are extreme. I know that not a lot of 30 per cent at least, except in those three areas, plus people are taking £2,000 a week for a five-bedroom whatever elements of the housing stock currently occupied property in central London, but there are some and by housing benefit recipients that will go on being the current system allows it. Further down the scale, affordable. So it is a large proportion, although it is £500 a week is being paid for two-bedroom properties impossible to put an exact number on it, because and £370 a week for one-bedroom properties at this clearly we are expecting prices to move and more year’s rates. The Government’s measures are designed properties to come into that category. But a large to take this under some control. proportion of houses will remain affordable. One of the measures that we have announced, and which has been widely welcomed tonight, is providing A small number of people in the most expensive for an additional bedroom for disabled people living places will, of course, have to move, but they will not in the private rented sector who need a non-resident, have to move far, and we will work with local authorities overnight carer. to give those people the support that they need. In Noble Lords have gone through the other changes, central London, 2.5 million jobs are accessible within but I shall summarise them. They include applying an 45 minutes of travel. Bus fares, although they went up overall cap to local housing allowance rates and setting this month, are no more than £1.30 for a single journey the maximum rate at four bedrooms. Those rates are so they can go long distances on a bus. Low-income £250 for one bedroom, £290 for two bedrooms, £340 for working households mostly pay a rent slightly lower three bedrooms and £400 for four bedrooms. That is a than the appropriate local housing allowance rate. little over £20,000 as the top rate. We are also removing This group living in private rented accommodation is the £15 weekly excess, which the previous Administration mobile; 40 per cent of them have been in that would have liked to do but did not. I do not think that accommodation for less than a year. It is not unusual anyone argues that it is appropriate that we pay people for families to move. Indeed, over a quarter of a 777 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[LORDS] Housing Benefit Regulations 2010 778

[LORD FREUD] not all, but many areas, landlords will have no choice million people moved out of or between inner London but to reduce their rents and give back some of the boroughs in 2008-09, which is a point that the noble excess gain that we seem to have seen in this part of Lord, Lord German, made. the market. We are also giving landlords an incentive On the estimates of homelessness that various bodies by widening local authority discretion to pay housing have put out, it is important not to rely on those benefit direct to the landlord, a point raised by the estimates if they are based on what landlords say they noble Baroness, Lady Thomas. We are not giving this will do or on early experience. We must look at the discretion away for nothing and the complex language shortfalls. After the reforms, 32 per cent will see no here was to make sure that we get something for change in shortfall, 450,000 households will have a something: that if we are translating a payment stream shortfall of less than £10 a week and 35,000 will have a from, let us say, a triple-B-rated level to a triple-A shortfall of more than £20 a week. Not all of those sovereign income stream, we get something for our will have to move, let alone become homeless. money. That is why that is written so carefully. One difficulty in writing an impact assessment when Because I do not want to run out of time, I will there are behavioural and market-based effects is that jump to the key thing and I will come back to whatever it is not easy to quantify those impacts, because they I can fit in after that. I want to turn to the important involve a complex interplay of behavioural decisions issue of the monitoring and evaluation of these changes. by individual landlords and individual tenants. We are I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Best, for his talking about market forces here. Although economic timely Motion. I am very happy to agree to his proposal theory would suggest that if a purchaser of up to for an independent review. I make a firm commitment 40 per cent of a market reduces the amount that they to the House that we intend to commission independent, are willing to spend, it will cause rents to fall, it is only external research to help us evaluate the impact of the in the end through observation that we will be able to reforms. This review will cover all the areas that the noble obtain absolutely conclusive evidence. Lord outlined in his Motion. I can assure the House We have had similar concerns raised about our that it will be comprehensive and thorough and, of decision to cap local housing allowance levels at the course, I readily agree that the outcome of the evaluation four-bedroom rate but that reflects the kind of housing should be presented to both Houses, together with a choices that are made by larger families who are not written ministerial statement. Among the issues that it on benefit. It builds on the restriction introduced by would cover—these were points raised by noble Lords— the now Opposition in April 2009 to cap at the five- will be homelessness and moves; the shared room rate bedroom rates. Let us be clear: most families not on and houses in multiple occupation; what is happening benefit cannot afford to live in properties with five or in Greater London; what is happening in rural more bedrooms. We are reflecting here the choices communities; what is happening in black and minority made by families everywhere. ethnic households; large families; older people; people with disabilities and working claimants. That is what These measures have been closely scrutinised. We this review will cover. have made available more data on impacts than has ever been the case. Clearly, some people will receive Lord Knight of Weymouth: The Minister has been less benefit as a result of the changes but that does not very helpful in directly addressing the Motion of the necessarily mean that all of those people will be drastically noble Lord, Lord Best. I am sure that the whole worse off. The gap between the 30th percentile and House will be grateful if he gives us assurance on the 50th percentile can be quite narrow. On average, it is one outstanding feature, that this will be an annual currently £15 a week for one-bedroom properties and review reporting to both Houses of Parliament. £26 per week for two-bed properties in London. In the outer south-east area, the difference can be as little as Lord Freud: I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. £8 a week for two-bedroom properties. Clearly, one Very elegantly, I have an answer for him on my next effect that will happen is that the 30th percentile and page—although, of course, I am not reading, I am the median can start moving together if we do not get keeping carefully to my text in this important area. the downward pressure that we are trying to impose The noble Lord, Lord Best, suggested that the review on the rates. That would actually be bad news for the should be published after a year and we considered Government, because we would not lose some of the that point very carefully, but given the implementation gains but see a market response as those medians timescales for these changes, particularly the transitional move together, rather than the wholesale disruption protection arrangements that we have introduced, I that some people have been forecasting. In practice, think that one year is too soon for a meaningful piece setting the local housing allowance rates at the of evaluation research. Many housing benefit recipients 30th percentile merely reflects the choices of low-income will not be affected by the changes until well into 2012. households; we know that from the research that we We will therefore make the findings available in early undertook last year. 2013, with initial findings available in the spring of The noble Lord, Lord Best, told us about the 2012 and an interim report in the summer of 2012. attitude of landlords. Rather than accept his concerns wholesale—although he is clearly a great authority in Baroness Hollis of Heigham: That is very helpful of this area—I would point out that, in the last 18 months, the Minister. I fully understand his reasoning for why more than 400,000 private rented sector tenants have the report may therefore need to come out somewhat been claiming, which shows that landlords are certainly later than the noble Lord, Lord Best, originally proposed. prepared to rent to tenants claiming housing benefit. I Will the Minister also be giving us details about what repeat my point that, at 40 per cent of the market in is happening with rent levels, the 30th percentile, CPI 779 Housing Benefit Regulations 2010[24 JANUARY 2011] Rent Officers Order 2010 780 and as a result, if necessary, the continued rebasing of I thank all those who briefed us before this debate, the 30th percentile figure to ensure that it does not particularly the Social Security Advisory Committee drift down because of the effect of CPI? for its excellent report, and the officials at the Department for Work and Pensions for a devastating impact assessment Lord Freud: I thank the noble Baroness for that. If I on the Minister’s proposals. have one minute when I finish my prepared speech, I The Minister himself made a brave attempt to will try to touch on the CPI. persuade us that everything will be okay. In his speech, With regard to further reporting after what I have the noble Lord, Lord German, suggested that there just described, I am not convinced that it would be was as much certainty as backing a Grand National appropriate to commit to an annual report on these winner in trying to predict the outcome of these reforms when so many other welfare changes will be regulations. My money is on my noble friend Lady made, as the noble Baroness has pointed out—not Hollis’s analysis over the Minister’s. I am disappointed least, the introduction of the universal credit. I suggest that we have not had a commitment to an annual that we ask the authors of the independent review to report. It will be up to the noble Lord, Lord Best, to recommend whether they think that a follow-up evaluation decide whether to divide the House, but for now I beg will be necessary. As I said, I am happy to commit to leave to withdraw the Motion. the independent review that I have described. Before I close on the CPI, I should point out that it Motion withdrawn. is designed to bear down and we are locked into it for the years 2013-14 and 2014-15. Thereafter it is up to Rent Officers (Housing Benefit Functions) the Government to decide whether rates using that methodology go out of kilter. Amendments Order 2010 These changes are important. We have put in a lot Motion to Annul of transitional support along with a comprehensive 9.39 pm programme of practical support to help local authorities implement these measures so that we can finally reform Tabled by Lord Knight of Weymouth housing benefit and make it fit for purpose. There is That a Humble Address be presented to Her no doubt that these statutory instruments are sensible Majesty praying that the Order, laid before the and proportionate. They must go ahead and I commend House on 30 November, be annulled. them to the House. Relevant Documents: 15th Report from the Merits Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I do not want Committee to delay the House for very long. I thank noble Lords on all sides for what was an excellent debate and a Motion not moved. demonstration of this House at its best. As the Minister said, it was an important and significant debate. Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations If Members of your Lordships’ House who were not present for the whole debate find themselves scratching 2010 around for something to do late at night, perhaps later on in the week, they would do well to read it in Rent Officers (Housing Benefit Functions) Hansard, although I fear that if they were members of Amendments Order 2010 the coalition they might find it slightly depressing, Motion to Resolve given that it certainly gives the lie to the notion that we are all in this together. The noble Lord, Lord Best, was 9.45 pm so persuasive that everyone agreed with the case that he made for an independent review—even, I think, the Tabled By Lord Best Minister. To resolve that this House considers that because We heard about the human cost from the right of the uncertain impact on children, homelessness reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford and the noble and local authority resources of the Housing Baronesses, Lady Sherlock, Lady Wilkins and Lady Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2010 (SI 2010/2835) Turner; we had the passion of the noble Lord, Lord and the Rent Officers (Housing Benefit Functions) Adebowale, and the noble Baroness, Lady Dean; we Amendments Order 2010 (SI 2010/2836), the had the forensic analysis of the noble Baroness, Lady Government should commission an independent Hollis, making a strong case that the housing benefit review in their effects, to conclude one year after levels do not shape the market but landlords do; and they have come into force, and annually thereafter, we heard specific worries on child protection from the and present the report of each review to both noble Earl, Lord Listowel. The only comfort for the Houses of Parliament. Minister and for those reading Hansard afterwards might come from the noble Lord, Lord German, and Lord Best: My Lords, I, too, thank everybody for the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, but participating. I think that every speaker has supported they would be minute crumbs of comfort given the my Motion, which is entirely gratifying. I hope that balance of the speeches, where the noble Lords had that sends a strong message to the Government about more in common with their noble friend Lord Kirkwood, the level of support that there is on this issue and, who summed up the cross-party opposition very well indeed, a message to the world outside. The Minister, before my noble friend Lord McKenzie completed the to whom I am very grateful, has promised us a genuinely argument. independent and comprehensive review. On the timing, 781 Rent Officers Order 2010[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 782

[LORD BEST] may be exempted from the rule requiring it to meet the he has promised—I think that I have got this right— electoral quota in the event that it has a land area of preliminary findings after one year, an interim report more than 12,000 square kilometres. later in 2012 and a full report presented to both What was the basis for these numbers? That is the Houses of Parliament and accompanied by a ministerial first question that, we believe, stems from rule 4. There Statement in early 2013, with a requirement on the has never been, so far as we know, a statutory limit on authors of the report to tell us whether a further the size of a constituency; still less has there been a report thereafter—an annual one or whatever—might statutory limit on electorates and an exemption from be necessary. that limit based on territorial extent. Where did these The many charities that have briefed us and the numbers come from? The answer seems to be Ross, other professional bodies will follow the progress of Skye and Lochaber, the constituency represented by these reviews extremely carefully. If, as I suspect, some the former Liberal Democrat leader, the right honourable of those red lights that the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, Charles Kennedy, which is the only constituency that mentioned start flashing quite early, I think that there currently has a land area in that category of between must be an implied commitment, in setting up this 12,000 and 13,000 square kilometres. review, to the Government’s changing course if that is Ross, Skye and Lochaber is the largest constituency necessary—perhaps in quite a radical way. I thank the in the United Kingdom. The Deputy Prime Minister noble Lord, Lord Freud, very much. I hope that all my told Parliament last summer, before the Bill was noble friends and colleagues, including those who introduced, that, have been on standby in case this went to a vote, will agree that there has been an important outcome to “no constituency will be larger than the size of the largest one this debate and that we have gone as far as we can now”.—[Official Report, Commons, 5/7/10; col. 25.] tonight. In fact, he did not quite stay true to his word. Thirteen thousand square kilometres—the maximum territorial Motion not moved. extent allowed by the Bill—is 285 square kilometres bigger than Ross, Skye and Lochaber, which is 12,715 square kilometres. Before noble Lords accuse Parliamentary Voting System and me of nit-picking, let me say that the Labour Member Constituencies Bill for Aberdeen North pointed out during debates on the Committee (12th Day) (Continued) Bill in another place that it is just enough to allow Ross, Skye and Lochaber, with its 52,000 electorate, to add some 21,000 voters from the city of Inverness, 9.47 pm represented, of course, by the right honourable gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. That would be Amendment 71B just enough to push Ross, Skye and Lochaber to Moved by Lord Bach within 5 per cent—5,000—of the electoral quota. We are not sure, however, that the Chief Secretary would 71B: Clause 11, page 9, line 34, leave out from beginning to be too keen on that. end of line 5 on page 10 Many people have harboured suspicions about this territorial size exemption, given the close relationship Lord Bach: My Lords, the purpose of this amendment between the numbers in the rule and the dimensions of is to probe the thinking behind the territorial extent the said constituency. Some have viewed it as a crude rule—rule 4—in Clause 11 and, in so doing, to test attempt to protect the seat of the former Liberal some of the fundamental assumptions that underpin Democrat leader. I do not take that view; this side the Bill’s proposed new system before drawing does not take that view. parliamentary constituencies. Rule 4 is designed to place a limit on the territorial extent of a constituency. Even if that were the original intention, it has The rule is deemed necessary because, if the principle become apparent that it would not deliver that objective. of equality of representation was continued to its The reality of the electoral parity law means that the logical end, we would see at least one gigantic Bill may result in the three new constituencies in place parliamentary constituency in the Highlands of Scotland. of the four currently representing the areas of Highland This is because the scarcity of population in that part and Argyll. The seat most likely to disappear, assuming of the United Kingdom means that a constituency that the Boundary Commission for Scotland operates would have to cover an enormous area if it was going in its normal way, and regardless of whether it begins to attain the proposed electoral quota of approximately its calculations from south to north or north to south, 75,800 electors. is Ross, Skye and Lochaber. The electoral parity rule, born out of rules 2 and The purpose of our amendment to delete the territorial 5(3) in the Government’s scheme, is clear that every extent rule is not to remove a special protection for the seat in Britain, save for the two Scottish island seats—and right honourable gentleman. He clearly has no such now, by the will of this Committee, the Isle of Wight— protection. It is to raise the fundamental question as would have to have an electorate of between 95 per to why territorial extent should be the only general cent and 105 per cent of that UK average electorate, factor written into the Bill that may warrant a departure which means between about 73,000 and 80,000 voters. from the electoral parity rule and why that exemption Rule 4 overrides that requirement. It states on the one should itself be framed so narrowly. Rule 4 in the Bill hand that no constituency may exceed 13,000 square can only conceivably have an application in one part kilometres in size and on the other that a constituency of the United Kingdom: the Scottish Highlands. But 783 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 784 why should the geography of that area be the only I anticipate that the Minister’s answer to my question geography to qualify for special recognition in the will reference the overriding principle of equalising construction of parliamentary constituencies? Of course, seats. However, that principle is of course breached by we understand why it might be sensible to put a limit the Bill in several areas and there should not be any on how large in territorial terms a constituency should ideological block on debating whether it ought to be be allowed to grow in pursuit of the electoral quota, breached even more. If the Minister were to try to but we ask whether it would not also be sensible to explain the rule by reference to the accessibility of a place some other protections on potentially undesirable constituency and the ability of the Member of Parliament geographical entities that could be produced as a to travel around it, why are Argyll and Bute, with its consequence of the electoral parity rule. In other 13 islands, or St Ives, which incorporates the Isles of amendments, we have sought, for example, to ensure Scilly, not included also as exceptions to the parity that island constituencies are guaranteed an allocation rule? of whole constituencies. It may furthermore be argued that the further loosening However, further considerations should arguably of the electoral parity rule by asserting the strict be included in the proposed new rules. For example, threshold imposed by the Bill merely brings Britain Democratic Audit has said: into line with other countries and international states. “It would make sense to ban constituencies straddling wide However, that assertion has been blown apart by an estuaries such as the Mersey, Humber, Clyde, Forth and Thames”. analysis of international electoral systems published When the Boundary Commission for England has this month by Democratic Audit, which concludes: proposed cross-estuary seats in the past, for instance “Differences in constituency size … are to be found in Australia on Merseyside, there has been strong resistance to and the United States—where equalisation supposedly rules. such proposals. It is also said that some leeway might Constituency size is always modified by locality and geography in be allowed for the construction of constituencies in some form”. the Welsh valleys. The Democratic Audit report argues The article states: that there is, “The startling truth about the government’s proposed equalisation scheme is that it would be the most extreme version used in any “a case for allowing small departure from the usual rules if national legislature based on single member constituencies in the following them could lead to an absurd seat with a small part of world”. one valley attached to a seat based on another valley”. We would be grateful if the Minister could explain I repeat that, whether the Government would be prepared to take “it would be the most extreme version used in any national these situations on board. If not, what is so special legislature based on single member constituencies”. about territorial extent, as opposed to the other special The quotation continues: geographical concerns that we have mentioned? “This is true both in terms of the number of tolerated anomalies and the uniformity imposed on the bulk of constituencies”. The Government need to respond to these concerns. Lord Kinnock: Just to underline and illuminate the Their approach to constituency boundaries is too point that my noble friend made in passing about rigid and too uniform, but they still have time to the south Wales valleys, I report to him the words of correct the problem. There is no reason why these the late Alec Jones, who, as the noble Lord will recall, major reports should be rushed through without any was the Member for Rhondda, having been a Member proper consultation or analysis. We invite the Government for Rhondda West, which was then brought together to pause for thought and to take some time to examine with Rhondda East. There was at the time of that how their changes would impact in practical terms—the Boundary Commission report an idea that a part of only terms that matter—on UK constituencies and what became the Cynon Valley constituency should be the communities that make them up. grouped in with Rhondda East and Rhondda West—that is, Rhondda Fawr and Rhondda Fach, or the large The noble Lord, Lord McNally, told the House last Rhondda and the little Rhondda. Alec Jones’s devastating June that common sense and a sense of history and comment on that to the Boundary Commission was, geography would have an influence on this process. “Some bloody idiot has been using a flat map”. There The narrow exemptions from the electoral parity rule is a huge danger, if the kind of amendment presented currently contained in the Bill are inadequate to allow by my noble friend is not accepted and there are no for that to happen. As with so much contained, we clear indicators to the Boundary Commission to use fear, in Part 2 of the Bill, the Government need to go its sensible discretion, that flat maps will plague a lot back to the drawing board with respect to rule 4, of constituencies, not just in Wales but in England and which is what our amendment invites them to do. I beg Scotland, that are interrupted by large geographical to move. features that define communities. Unless proper consideration is given to that topographical reality, 10 pm flat maps will come to be cursed. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Skelmersdale): I should tell the Committee that if this Lord Bach: I am grateful to my noble friend for his amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendments 71C intervention. My fear is not that the maps that are to 72A. used will be flat but that they will make no difference. They may well show the contours of the mountains in Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: My Lords, I intervene between, but no notice could be taken of them, in any briefly because in the debate on the amendment on the event. Isle of Wight, which my noble friend moved so 785 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 786

[LORD FORSYTH OF DRUMLEAN] Commons from 650 to 600, but the Scottish Parliament, successfully, I touched on the issue of Ross, Skye and which has 129 Members, has fiercely resisted any Lochaber. There is a famous painting by Erskine reduction in its size. If one wanted to give the Boundary Nicol called “Lochaber No More”, which depicts the Commission instructions, it would be far more important clansmen saying goodbye to their families as they to try to co-ordinate the boundaries of the Scottish leave for the New World. It is now a part of the parliamentary Westminster constituencies with those Fleming collection and is the picture that is most in the Scottish Parliament, but that does not feature. frequently in demand to be loaned abroad. There is a Instead, we have this extraordinary thing that no long tradition, and I am sure the noble Lord will constituency can be larger than the existing constituency, forgive me for correcting his pronunciation of Lochaber. which in itself was created to take account of geographical and other boundaries. Lord Bach: It is I who should apologise to the I do not want to detain the House, and I certainly Committee for having got the pronunciation wrong. do not want to be accused of filibustering or anything of that kind, but the noble Lord, Lord Bach, makes an Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I mention “Lochaber important point and I look forward to hearing the No More” because I suspect that that will be the Minister’s explanation. consequence of this. As I said in the earlier debate, when I read the Bill I thought that this was a protection measure for Charles Kennedy’s constituency. He set Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords, I am pleased me straight on that when I had lunch with him the to follow the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and to pick other day. The most likely outcome is that the Boundary up some of his points. In doing so, I will speak to Commission will start, as it has always done, in the Amendments 71C and 72A, which were tabled by my north; the constituency that is currently represented noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara and me by Lord Thurso will become larger; and there will then and would have exactly the same effect but are less be a fight between Mr Kennedy and the Chief Secretary elegant than the amendment moved by the Front to the Treasury for the remaining constituency. I do Bench, which has put it all into one amendment while not know what my right honourable friend’s views are we have two. I am looking forward to reading Hansard on primaries but they have always been enthusiastically tomorrow to see how it records our correction of the embraced by the Liberal Party. If there is to be a pronunciation of the Ross, Skye and Lochaber contest, my advice to him was that he does not want it constituency. The correction is easy to say but not easy to be a primary because I think Mr Charles Kennedy to put down in print. will win hands down. My noble friends will understand why I am a bit more suspicious of the Government’s intention than Lord Sewel: I do not wish to intervene in an internecine my noble friend on the Front Bench. Noble Lords conflict within the coalition, but are the Government opposite will probably understand even more why I sure that their proposals are consistent with the Act of am more suspicious than the Front Bench. One should Union? look carefully at the Bill, as my noble friend Lord Bach said. Rule 5(1), on page 10, states: Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: As the noble Lord was “A Boundary Commission may take into account, if and to such extent as they think fit … special geographical considerations, such a great mover in the process of devolution, he is including in particular the size, shape and accessibility of a on thin ice when talking about the security of the constituency”. union as a result of legislation passed through this Size is covered, and it is included in exactly the same House. However, that is a debate for another day. way as shape and accessibility. I have some sympathy with the amendment because Later, I shall move an amendment to include the it seems perverse to set a physical limit. When we word “wealth”. I am not sure that that is the best talked about the Isle of Wight the other day—I understand word, but I also wanted to consider how rich or that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, has taken to prosperous a constituency is. That should be a factor. quoting me extensively—I said that constituencies are Size is covered, so why do we need the separate provision, not about blocks of numbers. However, neither are rule 4(1), which states: they about blocks of specific land mass area. I did not know how the Boundary Commission would deal with “Aconstituency shall not have an area of more than 13,000 square the problem, but we could end up with a new Caithness kilometres”? constituency, which is an entirely arbitrary line on the Rule 4(2) then states: map, arising from this provision. Like the noble Lord, “A constituency does not have to comply with rule (2)(1)(a) if Lord Bach, we have put the proposition fairly and I do … it has an area of more than 12,000 square kilometres”. not understand why this provision is here, unless it was Why is the first one 13,000 square kilometres? Why thought that it would provide protection for a particular not 14,000, 15,000, 13,500 or any other figure? I asked constituency.That constituency, Ross, Skye and Lochaber, myself that when I read the Bill for the first time. Why has worked very well. Despite his politics, the right is the second figure 12,000? Why not 11,000, 10,000 or honourable Member, Charles Kennedy, has represented 13,000? it very well in Parliament. Then I looked at the area of Ross, Skye and Lochaber. I am always in favour of saving public money, but it My noble friend will not be surprised to hear that that strikes me as I look at the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, area is 12,779 square kilometres—that is, between that there is a curious thing in the Scottish context in 12,000 and 13,000. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is that we want to reduce the size of the House of probably right that the Boundary Commission might 787 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 788 perversely start at the top with Thurso and move Lord Forsyth has pointed out, an inordinately large south, so it might not actually preserve Ross, Skye and number of Members of the Scottish Parliament can Lochaber, but I think that that is what it was put in for. answer many of the worries and concerns that the It was an attempt to preserve Ross, Skye and Lochaber; electorate might have in Orkney and Shetland and in why is it there otherwise? Why is it included at all? other such places in Edinburgh. That would deal with Why do we have both these provisions and why are all problems of education, the Scottish legal system they 12,000 and 13,000? and many other areas. I am really looking forward to my old friend’s As we all know, one reality that we live with today is reply—I was going to say my noble friend. Last week, that Scottish Members of Parliament who come south he reminded me that we have known each other for to Westminster have extremely little to do—except, of 45 years. We went to the Soviet Union together all course, to vote, often on English matters that are of no those years ago as young, innocent students. My noble concern to their constituents. I must confess that I am friend and I learnt a lot on that occasion. I am looking sad that the whole business of English and Welsh forward to his explanation. He has been very astute in votes on English and Welsh matters, which was a giving us explanations on other provisions in the Bill, commitment of the Conservatives in their manifesto, but this one will really test him. is notably absent for some reason from the coalition I was not going to talk about the Scottish parliamentary document. Presumably we must assume that the Liberal boundaries until the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, raised Democrats are quite comfortable with the idea of them. He is now asking himself why he did so. As I Scottish Members of Parliament coming south to vote say, I would have sat down by now, as noble Lords on matters in English constituencies that do not concern opposite, particularly those on the Liberal Democrat their constituents at all, because they are dealt with by Benches, will be pleased to hear, but he raised a very what is now not even the Scottish Parliament—I am interesting point. He is absolutely right. When my told that it is now the Scottish Government—north of noble friend Lady Liddell of Coatdyke reduced the the border. number of Scottish constituencies from 72 to 59, the The whole rationale for saying that such an enormous idea was that the number of Scottish parliamentary geographical area should have fewer people in the constituencies would reduce proportionately,the boundaries electorate does not stand up any more when you have would stay coterminous and we would have 108 Members devolution and a Scottish Parliament that deals with of the Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Parliament so many of the problems with which people in those was originally designed for 108 Members. One of the enormous geographical areas will be concerned. I have reasons why it went so hugely over budget was because every support for removing that provision from the everyone in the Scottish Parliament of all parties wanted Bill. I think that it is a very great mistake on the part to stick with the figure of 129. That was rather unfortunate. of those who put the Bill together to produce those I think that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and I agree exemptions in different forms, which is why I was so on that as well. much against my noble friend Lord Fowler’s idea that However, that is not the main purpose of these for some reason the Isle of Wight should be exempted. amendments, which is to ascertain why these figures of Once you start down the road of exemptions, there is 12,000 and 13,000 were pulled from the hat and included no end to it; you produce a justification for practically if it was not to protect Ross, Skye and Lochaber. If every amendment that we have been hearing to this Ross, Skye and Lochaber and Orkney and Shetland half of the Bill. are to be protected, it certainly looks like a protection I pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord arrangement for Liberal Democrat MPs. The advice Bach, when he summed up my noble friend Lord that my noble friend—my very noble friend—has given Fowler’s amendment: that I was a bit of a purist. I do me on Hansard is that it should use rhyming slang to not quite know whether that was supposed to be an explain that Lochaber rhymes with harbour. That is a insult or a compliment, but in the circumstances I will Welsh solution. However, that has detracted me from take it as a compliment and I hope that this amendment my main purpose, which is to say that I very much gets a serious reading, because we must try to clean up look forward to hearing the noble Lord, Lord McNally, the Bill and make it rather more rational. explain the randomness of these figures and say why they are included at all. Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: Speaking as a unionist, I will not necessarily rise to the points made by the Lord Hamilton of Epsom: I will intervene briefly on noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, about what Scottish this subject as it was raised in the debate on the Members of Parliament can do these days, but I agree amendment of my noble friend Lord Fowler on the that there is a real inconsistency in the exemptions in Isle of Wight. I have the very greatest reservations the Bill. This is the second time in our discussions that about putting any exemptions whatever into the Bill. we have had to question the choice of a number. It The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, has made the very almost seems as though those who drafted the Bill had good point that it seems rather odd that so many of a book of random numbers in front of them, if we are these exemptions seem to concern themselves with to believe the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, who, Liberal Democrat constituencies. There might be an when asked about the number of 600 Members of argument for saying that if the only representation Parliament said that, well, it was a nice round number. that the people had in these enormous geographical Where does the number of 13,000 or 12,000 come constituencies was in Westminster, perhaps you should from? It is blatantly obviously to protect the constituency keep the population of the electorate somewhat smaller, of Ross, Skye and Lochaber. I will be amazed to see but of course that is not the case. As my noble friend the Minister get out of that one. 789 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 790

[BARONESS LIDDELL OF COATDYKE] Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: I declare an interest, It troubles me that the Bill has been put together in as my title is Balmacara, as has already been mentioned. such a haphazard manner that we have these Balmacara is at the centre of the constituency that we inconsistencies. If there was a pressing need to protect are talking about—or at least it used to be until the constituencies because of their size or their shape, I Boundary Commission for Scotland added Lochaber must ask again why Argyll and Bute, another Liberal to the bottom end of it, making it look rather like an Democrat constituency, is not in the Bill. I know Ross, elephant in shape because it has a huge area to the south Skye and Lochaber very well indeed. It is a vast of the constituency where the Member who currently constituency, but it is much easier to move around represents it lives. Above that is the original Ross and than Argyll and Bute. There are certain parts of Argyll Cromarty constituency, which I knew and loved when and Bute—particularly some of the islands—that you I was younger, and the two have to work together. cannot visit in a day. In certain areas there is no We have reached an interesting point in this debate normal ferry service—you have to go either by a because we all seem to agree that geography is not the chartered boat or by trawler—yet it receives no special right basis on which to describe and characterise our consideration in the Bill. Is it that Alan Reid is a more constituencies. However, we are struggling to come up loyal member of the coalition than Charles Kennedy? with the right formulation for addressing the questions It seems to me that those issues were raised at the time that lie underneath a lot of the points that have been when there was some speculation that certain members made by my noble friends and others. The further you of the Liberal Democrat party were not wildly enthusiastic are from centres of high population, the more there is about the coalition. a case for taking into account scarcity and other Therefore, I very much look forward to the reply of issues, because, as my noble friend Lady Liddell said, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, on this. I ask him not when you are talking about areas as large as the one in to go back to the book of random numbers but to give Australia that she referred to, factors not necessarily us an explanation of this very bizarre choice. My related to population or dealing with communities noble friend Lord Bach talked about the equalisation need to be brought into play. I think I am right in of constituencies in places such as Australia. I remember saying that the area that we are now talking about—that asking a Member from the Northern Territory how is, the north-west of Scotland—is roughly the same many electors he had. He replied, “Oh, I’ve got about size as Belgium, yet we are talking about the possibility 10,000”. I was rather startled and pointed out that in of reducing the number of constituencies to three, Airdrie and Shotts I had about 68,000 and that he with their MPs representing in the UK Parliament all must know the inside leg measurement of every voter. the various things that have to be done for a constituency. However, he pointed out that his constituency was the What principle will be used there? When reading size of Portugal, so, even in countries where there is the Bill, I came to the same conclusion as did many equalisation, there is a realisation that you cannot others—that is, that this must be a way of protecting a have the concept of constituency by block. particular area. However, if it is, it is certainly very surprising that Mr Charles Kennedy, when discussing Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I know that the Minister is this matter in another place, did not see the Bill being happy only when dealing with amendments that involve phrased in that way. Talking about the size of his equations, particularly complex ones, and therefore he constituency, he said: may not have been happy at the prospect of addressing “It is no exaggeration to say that I can drive for five solid this amendment. However, I want to point out one hours within the boundaries of the constituency, simply between subsidiary advantage to the Bill of the amendment point A and point B, to carry out one engagement, and then have moved by my noble friend Lord Bach—namely, that it to drive five hours back. That is just insane”. removes an otherwise technical flaw in the Bill. He also said that, The equation in the Bill, U/598—from memory, it is “the Government are trying to introduce the artificial construct in paragraph 2 of proposed new Schedule 2 under of a capped number of constituencies for the whole UK. Leaving Clause 11—is predicated on there being only two aside party politics, I think the House would agree that there are distinct and unique geographical considerations in places such as exempted constituencies. However, if the constituency the Isle of Wight, in Cornwall, with its relationships between whose name begins with Ross—I am not going to try places on each side of the Tamar, and in the highlands and to say the Scots constituency name as I will no doubt islands…A degree of sensible flexibility is called for.” make some minor mispronunciation—is also exempted He said that, under the Bill, then the equation will no longer work; “the crazy approach that is being applied, which simply is not it would need to be U/597, and I have not seen any suitable and does not make sense given the communities involved”, government amendment proposing that. should be withdrawn. He concluded: Of course, were the Government to accept—and they showed some sympathy for it the other night—the “It is never too late for Governments to think again”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/11/10; cols. 661-664.] revised equation that I put forward as an amendment to the Bill, which was adaptable to whatever the number If that is your friend, who needs opposition? of exempted constituencies might be, this problem Like several other noble Lords on this side of the would be removed. However, as they have not yet House, I support the basic approach to this Bill. I accepted it, their alternative is to accept the amendment think there is a good case for striving for equality of moved by my noble friend Lord Bach. At least the Bill votes; I do not dissent from the central thrust of this would then be technically competent and the algebra Bill. However, I do not think that the Bill as presently would work, which it currently does not as the Bill is constructed deals correctly with my area of Ross and drafted. Cromarty as was, or points further north. If the noble 791 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 792

Lord, Lord Forsyth, is right, the way the Boundary with whom they are in contact. These islands of ours Commission will operate is going to leave a three-seat are largely densely populated, but the former county set of constituencies up in that northern area, with a of Sutherland has a density of about one person per fight between those who currently represent Inverness square mile. That is quite unlike the urban areas of and those who represent Ross, Skye and Lochaber. this country, and it ought to be recognised that it That is not the right solution for Scotland. It does not presents problems that are almost as great, or perhaps reflect a sense of the community, a sense of the even greater, than those of island constituencies. I history, a sense of the clan relationships or a sense of hope that the Government will recognise that. the travel arrangements there. It is a wonderful part of the world, but it is very remote. It is very different and 10.30 pm distinct, and it would be sad if that were to be lost in Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Can my noble friend tell this process. We have not got this right, and this the House how many Members of the Scottish Parliament amendment, which I fully support, gives the Government represent the area of his old constituency? a chance to think again. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. Lord Maclennan of Rogart: There is one MSP directly representing the area and there are list top-ups for the Lord McAvoy: There has been very considerable wider area of the highlands. That does not seem to me doubt cast in this short debate upon the integrity of in any way to diminish the problem of those who are this part of the Bill and how it came about. Is it not participating in national debates about United Kingdom striking that not one Liberal from the Benches opposite issues whose contact with electors ought to be real, has seen fit to defend either the decision or the integrity not remote. I believe that in matters of taxation, of it? foreign policy, defence and energy policy and in matters The Minister has been asked on several occasions directly affecting the prosperity of these areas, their by noble Lords to give the reasoning and logic behind voices should be heard and should be informed by this proposal. He should realise that it really will not their direct contact. be good enough not to give a precise answer. I add to the request for a full response how this recommendation Although I do not regard the formula in the Bill as came about. Bearing in mind the doubt cast upon the ideal, to extract it from the Bill would prejudice further integrity of the decision, I ask him, in the interests of consideration of what would be the better solution. I transparency and accountability—which we know the profoundly hope that we will arrive at a better solution Liberals are big on—to give a public commitment to before the Bill leaves this House. this House and to the nation that he will put into the Library all the written submissions, reasoning, papers Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Will my noble friend from special advisers, political advisers or whoever develop that argument? Given that the Bill currently that he considered before this was put into the Bill. instructs the Boundary Commission to take account of geography and size, will he explain why removing Lord Maclennan of Rogart: The noble Lord, Lord this provision would meet the points that he eloquently McAvoy, will forgive me for following him, but I expresses? If I may say so, as a Member of Parliament, wanted to hear what he had to say—and I knew he he very ably represented that huge area of Caithness would have something to say—before I responded. and Sutherland. It would be helpful if he could explain The Bill, in my opinion, is not satisfactory as it deals why he thinks removing this provision would be an with the large, scattered population areas of the north impediment to reaching a solution that meets these highlands. However, I am bound to say that the requirements. amendment would make it even worse. I hope that this will be given further consideration and, on Report, it Lord Maclennan of Rogart: My understanding is may be possible to produce a solution which renders that the Boundary Commission’s discretion to consider the representation of highland constituencies feasible this would be removed by Amendment 71B. I think and maintains the contact between the elected Members that would be a mistake. I hope that the Government and their constituents. I recall that, when I represented have not set their position in concrete on this issue and the northernmost constituency of the mainland, Caithness will be prepared to return to it later. and Sutherland, and, latterly, Easter Ross, the practicalities of going from one end to the other, or even consulting The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord the fishing industry on three coasts about matters McNally): My Lords, I am deeply flattered by the which were for the United Kingdom Government or number of noble Lords who have said how excited or the European government, were not at all straightforward. interested they are about my reply. I think I have I instituted a system of telephone clinics, which is now mentioned to the House before that Michael Foot not possible because of the change in our telephone once said to me that he hated reading a brief when he system. The practicality of getting round and consulting was a Minister because he liked to be as excited as the members of one’s constituency, about something everybody else about what was coming next. such as the Falklands Islands, which I remember doing Let me also clarify that it is true that the noble during the Falklands war, is demanding, and I do not Lord, Lord Foulkes, and I first met 45 years ago on a dissent from what Charles Kennedy said in another student delegation to Moscow. I always assumed that I place. In fact, I strongly agree with him. was there to keep an eye on him and he was there to I am not opposed to the objective of giving votes keep an eye on me, and it has been a friendship that equal value, but that has to be balanced with the sense has endured. Indeed, looking across the Chamber, I that electors have of being represented by an individual see the faces of many men and the odd woman whom I 793 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 794

[LORD MCNALLY] damaging factors for MPs and their constituencies in have known since my youth. It is really sad that my these areas. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his memory of these old friends was of their idealism and amendment. yet tonight we have had doubt after doubt about the good intentions contained in the Bill and its integrity. Lord Bach: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords on There has been a constant questioning of motive all sides who have spoken in what everyone who has when, as I have said so often to this House, our listened must consider to be a proper and sensible motives are very clear and simple: fair votes in fairly debate at Committee stage on an important matter. drawn constituencies. The Minister did not convince me in the slightest as to If we take the broad sweep of the Committee and why the rule is in the Bill and I have a feeling that he the special pleading we have had from time to time did not persuade the Committee either. That is quite a about the particular problem of looking after an inner serious state of affairs, because rule 4 stands out as city and the special pleading from the large rural being the one whose presence in the Bill cannot be constituencies about their problems, we realise that all understood at all. I do not, I am afraid, get the point Members of Parliament in their different ways have about the Scottish Boundary Commission. I hope that jobs to do and I suspect it works out fairly reasonably. the Minister will in due course help the Committee by On the question of size, there is a simple reason for the telling us chapter and verse about the Scottish Boundary recommendation which has nothing to do with the Commission, but the rule seems effectively to apply to present incumbent of that constituency. It would have only one constituency in the whole of the United applied whether the present incumbent was Labour, Kingdom. If the Government wanted to exempt that Liberal Democrat or Conservative. It was simply that constituency, why did they not just exempt it, as they the independent Boundary Commission in Scotland have the two others and now the Isle of Wight? recommended that that was about the maximum I said in opening that, even if the original intention manageable size that a constituency could operate. As was to protect a particular constituency, it has become the noble Lord, Lord Bach, indicated, this is a problem apparent that that objective would not be delivered. I mainly for the highlands of Scotland. suppose that if there is one thing worse than trying to protect a particular constituency, it is trying to protect Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Which figure was it and failing to do so. I fear that that may have recommended by the Boundary Commission for Scotland? happened on this occasion. I cannot think—I think Was it 12,000 or 13,000? And where and when was it that other noble Lords are of the same mind as recommended? me—what other explanation there can be for the rule appearing. Lord McNally: I shall have to write to the noble As for other speakers, I accused the noble Lord, Lord. It was in the last Boundary Commission report Lord Hamilton, the other night of being a purist. It dealing with the Scottish boundaries. Again, noble was meant entirely as a compliment rather than an Lords opposite are continually looking for hidden insult; indeed, he took it as though it were a compliment, factors, secret deals and political fixes. As I say, that is which I was slightly surprised at. The noble Lord, so sad from people who set off on a political journey Lord Lipsey, proposed a very sensible amendment the with such idealism. As has been pointed out, special other night, which the Front Bench on the other side geographical considerations can be taken into account. said that it would look at and take up. We very much hope that it does so, because the points that he made Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: On this point about the in his short speech tonight showed how important that Scottish Boundary Commission and its recommendations, should be. I am grateful also to my noble friends Lord the Bill instructs the Boundary Commission to operate Stevenson, Lord McAvoy and Lord Foulkes. according to certain rules, but if the Boundary I was intrigued by and grateful for the speech of the Commission is of the view that the size of Ross, Skye noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, because he has real and Lochaber is about right, surely it can come to that history in that part of the world. He said that he did conclusion without being instructed to do so in the not like the Bill as it was worded but that he liked our Bill. amendment even less, but I was not quite sure what he wanted. I look forward to hearing in more detail at Lord McNally: The Bill helps it in its work. This is some stage what he would like to see in place of both not a time to go back to the drawing board. Most of the Government’s attitude and ours. He said that we the arguments have been rehearsed. Charles Kennedy should be looking for votes of equal value that are himself pointed out the difficulty of operating in the balanced by a sense of constituencies being represented present constituency with his five-hour drive. One of by an individual. We know exactly what he meant by the possible consequences of the amendment is that that and we agree with him; it is exactly what we are we would be faced with even larger geographic looking for in this case. We do not see how this clause constituencies. helps us to achieve that. We propose as a maximum size roughly that of the The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, asked the noble current largest constituency area. Since it was Lord, Lord Maclennan, why the rule could not just be recommended by the Boundary Commission, we believed taken out and reliance made on rule 5. I think that the that it gave the best benchmark to use in our proposals. answer to that is that rule 5 is subject to rule 2, which is Ultimately, this is a matter of judgment. We see no the one that sets the quota, but rule 4, which is the one reason to risk turning what are now challenging but that sets up this particularly odd territorial constituency manageable factors into potentially unmanageable and size, is not subject to rule 2 in the same way. They have 795 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 796 equal worth. If tonight we took out rule 4, we would I do not rest my case on the fascinating political be left with rule 5, but that would be subject strictly to history of Brecon and Radnor. I was interested in it the 5 per cent rule and, therefore, would not prevail. I long before I lived there, because I visited it with the think that that is the answer to the question that the then Prime Minister Jim Callaghan in the run-up to noble Lord posed. the 1979 general election. At that time, it was one of I do not intend to divide the House tonight on this the genuine three-way marginals in Great Britain. issue. We have had a very sensible Committee debate. Indeed, it was held by Labour and Caerwyn Roderick, The Government must have heard concern from all who was a junior Welsh Minister at the time. At the sides of the House about this clause and I am sure that last general election, Labour’s share of the vote was they will go away and consider carefully whether this 10 per cent, so I think that I can be absolved of any is really the right clause to be in this Bill and whether accusation that in trying to save Brecon and Radnor I they could come up with a better version of it. It is am trying to advance my party’s interests. We have an unsatisfactory and we will undoubtedly bring the matter excellent candidate, but I am not absolutely confident back at Report. By then, all sides of the House—and I that even at the next general election the constituency do not just mean my noble friends alongside me and will resume its status as a Labour marginal. It was also behind me—will want to have a better explanation as the site of an extraordinary by-election won by my to why rule 4 is in the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the near namesake and much lamented friend, Lord Livsey. amendment. It is right that the House remembers him when it debates this matter. I might be wrong, but I fancy that Amendment 71B withdrawn. he might have spoken on my side had he been here still, as we all so wish he was. Amendment 71C not moved. Last week, one of my noble friends was widely 10.45 pm quoted when he referred to prime numbers in the setting of the figure of 600 Members of the other The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord House. When he was quoted on the radio, I think that Skelmersdale): I call Amendment 72. he was regarded as making a rather jokey remark, not a serious point. I am about to venture into mathematics— Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Not moved. knowing as I do that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, so loves it—to make a serious point, although I am Amendment 72 aware that it may not appear quite so serious on the Moved by Lord Lipsey radio tomorrow. At first blush, it may seem that Brecon and Radnor has very few claims to be too large 72: Clause 11, page 9, line 35, leave out “13,000 square a constituency because it is much smaller in area than kilometres”and insert “that of the present parliamentary constituency of Brecon and Radnor” the Scottish constituencies that we have just been considering. Brecon and Radnor runs to 3,014 square Lord Lipsey: I understand that my noble friend’s kilometres, which is only one quarter of the square interest in amendments diminishes considerably when kilometrage of Ross et cetera—the constituency that their focus is removed from Scotland and taken to we were just discussing. If you are a Member of Wales, but that was rather a pre-emptive move from Parliament, however, it is of course not the area of him. your constituency that determines how far you have to travel. It is, in fact—the noble Lord, Lord McNally, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I sincerely apologise to will be taking close notes at this point—the square my noble friend. I thought that the Deputy Chairman root of the area, which determines the distance between said Amendment 72A. the points of it. In terms of its square root, the area of Brecon and Lord Lipsey: I accept my noble friend’s apologies, Radnor is much less different from the area of those which have added to the gaiety at this time of night. constituencies in Scotland. It is not a quarter of the In this amendment, we move from Scotland to size, as it is in area, but half. If it was a square Wales, but I hope that this will not be the debate when constituency, journeys in Brecon and Radnor could we consider the general issues about the reduction of extend to 55 kilometres—as opposed to 110 kilometres Welsh representation under this Bill from 40 seats on average in the Highland seat that we were discussing— down to 30 seats. That falls to be considered under but, believe me, those journeys are also very long and Amendment 89BA, tabled by some of my noble friends, difficult. The byroads of Brecon and Radnor compare and we shall no doubt want to have a full discussion with any in the kingdom for narrowness, snowiness on that at the time. and the general intervention of tractors between one’s This is about a single constituency, Brecon and vehicle and progress. The sheep outnumber the people, Radnor, where I have the great privilege and pleasure as my noble friend Lady Hayter points out, although I of living, so I know a tiny bit about it. The aim of this am not suggesting that the size of the constituency amendment is very simple: to afford to Brecon and should be based on the number of its sheep as well as Radnor the protection offered in Clause 11 to the the number of electors. Scottish seats that we have just been discussing, so that There is also a particular difficulty if you decide to the Boundary Commission may—not must—if it is increase the size of Brecon and Radnor, as you would satisfied that other factors make this desirable, decide have to, because the size of the electorate at the that the seat is big enough as it is and should not be moment is only about 54,000. It is that Brecon and extended. Radnor is bordered on one side by England. We have 797 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 798

[LORD LIPSEY] amendment would make it possible for the Boundary talked about ward borders, but one thing that you Commission to make such an exemption, but that cannot contravene within the rules of this Bill is decision would rest with the Welsh Boundary Commission, national borders, so the constituency cannot move out so it would not be imposed by this House. If the to the east to take in Leominster or any of the county commission found a flaw in my argument, of course I towns out there. To the south, you have the valley would subject myself, as would the constituency, to its constituencies, which are already undersized and out judgment. I believe that the constituency should be of which it will be extraordinarily difficult to make given a chance to make its case to the Boundary natural constituencies in any case. If you pinch bits of Commission and I commend this amendment to the the valleys and put them into Brecon and Radnor, you House. make their problems worse without creating a coherent Brecon and Radnor. As your Lordships will see, that Lord Touhig: Before my noble friend sits down, I gives only two possibilities. One is to extend to the hope that he will let me point this out. If Brecon and west; the other is to extend to the north. Again, with Radnor were to be extended north, it would go into my pronunciation difficulties I am not going to say Montgomeryshire. If it went west, it would go into which counties and constituencies that would mean Ceredigion. The electoral populations of these three extending into, but it gives the Boundary Commission parliamentary seats put together would only be enough a horribly difficult task in where it is going to find the for about two parliamentary seats under the criteria 20,000 or so extra electors that Brecon and Radnor that the Government propose, so there would be two will need to bring it up to the same size. parliamentary seats from the heads of the valleys in What is certainly clear is that there can be no south Wales to Wrexham in north Wales and west solution to those problems within the present boundaries from the English-Welsh border to Cardigan Bay. of the county of Powys. For noble Lords who are not used to what happens in these sparsely populated Lord Lipsey: My noble friend is entirely right and, if areas, it is scarcely imaginable how large Powys seems, I had dared to pronounce the words that he has just even now. My wife and I would pack the car with pronounced, I would have made precisely the same supplies for days to make a journey to visit the north points. The knock-on effect from changing this of the county. It took me an hour and a half to get to a constituency would be absolutely extreme. It is an Labour Party meeting in the south of the county quite example, incidentally, on which the whole House might recently. These are enormous places, which, incidentally, like to reflect, of the way in which one change leads to create enormous difficulties for political organisations. another change and eventually to a complete, wholesale The Brecon and Radnor constituency party is asking redrawing of the constituency map, to whose people to drive to meetings when they require an hour consequences, it seems to me, the Government have and a half or two hours’ drive to get to them, even given not one moment’s thought. now. Without the political parties, like them or loathe them, there would be no political life in this country. Lord Desai: My Lords, I want to speak very briefly That is just a reality. about the amendment moved by my noble friend. First, the prime number thing is very easy. My noble The thought of extending the constituency is difficult friend Lord Harris asked whether 600 is a combination to stomach and the thought of the degree of the of prime numbers. It is; it is 2 x3x5.Thatisnota extension that would be required, given that there are serious problem. I said the other day—I think it was no heavily populated bits anywhere near to north or on Wednesday—that the Government’s difficulty is west that you could add to it, is mind-boggling. This that they have put too stringent a criterion on themselves would be an absolutely enormous and unmanageable for equalising the size of seats. I am entirely in favour constituency. We must add to that a factor that I of their objective, but to have spared only two seats suspect applies in some of the Scottish constituencies, out of 600 shows that they have adopted too stringent too—it certainly does in the Highlands and Islands, a criterion. If they had given themselves a bit of slack although not in every constituency—which is that, if by saying 99 per cent, or even 98 per cent, we would you are the Member for Brecon and Radnor, every not be going through this debate about individual constituent expects you to know them by name, as, constituencies which are awkward in terms of the certainly, the late Lord Livsey did. This becomes such criterion. If they had set aside 10 or 12 constituencies an unmanageable constituency that the Member, if he which could be awkward, the rest would fit into the is to cope at all, will find it extremely hard to devote Government’s criterion. So rather than go seriatim his attention to the other matters of national and through all these different constituencies, perhaps the international politics that should fall within the attention Minister could say that yes, they recognise that 598 is of Members. too stringent a criterion, and maybe something like I add finally that, so far as I can judge local feeling—I 590 or 580 would do. Then all the anomalies could be am not a Member of another place, so I probably do adjusted and local sentiment satisfied, while the less door knocking than I would if I were—local Government could still get the bulk of their objective feeling is extremely strong, if not yet as well articulated of equalising seat sizes. I hope that the Minister will as in the Isle of Wight, that the constituency should be find that a helpful remark, not a hostile one. left as it is into the future. When noble Lords look at all these facts, the case for an exemption for Brecon 11 pm and Radnor—I know that the noble Lord, Lord Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, I have not Hamilton, will not agree with it, but he would not yet spoken in this debate and indeed I hesitate to agree with it for anywhere—is extremely strong. This speak now, because I am concerned about the length 799 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 800 of time that these debates are taking and their impact new rule for the whole country. Therefore, if I may say on the reputation of the House. However, I live and so, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, should look very work in Wales and am aware of the different cultures carefully at the amendment. It changes rule 4. I understand in the different areas there. That is why I felt that I that it may or may not apply to this constituency, but wanted to support the amendment. Indeed, the first the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, is making sure that there report from the Welsh Affairs Committee of this Session is a completely new set of criteria for every starts off by saying: constituency—in Scotland, England, Northern Ireland “The Parliamentary Voting and Constituencies Bill will have a and Wales. It does not provide for an exemption. greater impact on Wales than any other nation of the UK. Wales is projected to lose ten of its forty parliamentary seats, a reduction of 25 per cent”. Lord Howarth of Newport: I put it to the noble I know that we will be debating other aspects of Wales Lord that it is surely sensible, as my noble friend later, but I am not sure that I will be able to be in the proposes, to develop sensible rules of general application, House because I will be at work. rather than to proceed by amending the Bill here, there and elsewhere by adding new clauses to create anomalies The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, has made an important and exceptions to unsatisfactory rules, as we have point. Culturally, the area of Brecon and Radnorshire them at the moment in the draft Bill. That is why my is quite different from Ceredigion, from the north and noble friend’s amendment is very sensible. from the south Wales valleys. In considering whether to support this amendment, I looked at a map of travel times across the whole of Powys. The routes for Lord Tyler: It does not do that; it provides completely short distances are inordinately long whichever way new criteria, which would presumably change over you go. I thought it was just my poor navigation skills time. That is not clear from the amendment. The but in the rain and the dark, in an area where sat-navs amendment is defective, even in the terms in which the often do not work and there is no phone signal, noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, has proposed it. getting around that area is extremely difficult. The other aspect is that the nature and history of Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, this amendment that community are quite different from the history is not confined to Brecon and Radnorshire, as I accept. and the interests of the area in the valleys further It removes a colossal and monstrous injustice as far as south, of the Welsh-speaking area of Ceredigion and the whole concept of a constituency is concerned. west Wales, and indeed of the north, which has natural What is a constituency? What should a constituency flows because of the new main road across into England be? I suggest that it should be, first and foremost, a in the Merseyside area, as we all know. It makes a community of interest that is acceptable in relation to great deal of sense that if we talk about representation the division of the United Kingdom into various of people through their Members of Parliament, we parliamentary constituencies. Sometimes this will mean must consider who it is that these MPs will be representing. that one has to draw rather artificial lines on a map. In To have representation of that area in Powys requires many cases, it will mean that one must respect ancient someone who, like the late Lord Livsey, was hugely communities that have been there for a very long time. respected, understands the culture of that area, can If you can superimpose your model on to those ancient represent it and, realistically, travel around it, and communities, you should do so. That is what does not get distracted by some of the other no less parliamentary representation is about. important but completely different problems that affect In relation to Brecon and Radnorshire, it is one of the other areas represented by other Members of the clear absurdities of a situation where one looks at Parliament. It is for that reason that I commend this the whole question of representation through the wrong amendment to the House. end of the telescope. This piece of legislation says that you should look at representation from the viewpoint Lord Tyler: My Lords, I think that I was under the of the Member of Parliament and the number of same misapprehension as the noble Baroness, Lady constituents that he has. No, my Lords: you should Finlay, until I actually heard precisely what the noble look at it from the other end of the telescope—from Lord, Lord Lipsey, said. I should say that I know the the end of the ordinary constituent, who asks himself, constituency in question extremely well. My brother “How accessible is my Member of Parliament to has lived there for many years, and of course Richard me?”. If you ask that question, you are likely to get a Livsey was one of my closest colleagues; I campaigned more reasonable and just result. for him, I worked with him and for him both in the The whole question of how Wales is to be dealt other House and in this House, and I was privileged to with in this situation will, perhaps, have to wait for attend his funeral service, which was one of the most another day or two as far as this debate is concerned, moving I have ever attended. but I lay down a marker. Do you think it right that We should be clear, however: this amendment is not Wales should lose 25 per cent of its seats, when the proposing that this constituency should be made an United Kingdom, by reduction from 650 to 600 seats, exception. It does not add to the list of exceptions. loses 7.7 per cent? Wales is not a region; it is a national The amendment would change rule 4 for every community. We shall come back to that question again constituency in the country. I do not understand why and again. I repeat: the whole issue, essentially, is the noble Lord, who is usually meticulous in preparing looked at not from the viewpoint of the Member of amendments, moved it in totally different terms. It Parliament vis-à-vis his constituents, but from the may or may not apply to the constituency of Brecon viewpoint of the individual constituent vis-à-vis the and Radnorshire but it certainly introduces a completely Member of Parliament. 801 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 802

Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: I took my title as 11.15 pm being “of Kentish Town” but it could easily have been “of Ystradgynlais”. However, I felt that spending the Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I rise to rest of life explaining how to spell that would be even answer for the Opposition, and noble Lords will know harder than it is for my noble friends to learn how to that this is my first venture into this Bill. We have had pronounce Scottish names. However, I come not just a very thoughtful debate, and I hope that the noble from Ystradgynlais but from Brecon Road in Lord, Lord McNally, will not think that the interventions Ystradgynlais. It is from that point of view that I speak have in any way been cynical or lacking in appreciation today. This is part of an ongoing concern. I spoke on for the political niceties. It is of course my noble friend Second Reading of the memories, which I was taught Lord Lipsey who has sallied forth to save what has about as a child, of people in the Empire dividing up been quintessentially a Liberal Democrat seat now for in pencil on a flat map boundaries that were going to some time. have enormous implications for the local community. We have had some powerful arguments. The most Part of this debate is undoubtedly about that, and a important thing that has come out is the need for geographical area like Brecon and Radnor is a good flexibility: a more flexible approach than the rigidity example of the furthest extent to which you can describe which the Bill demands. We heard some powerful a community in any sense of that. descriptions from my noble friends Lord Lipsey, Lord The particular interest in a sense follows beautifully Touhig and Lady Hayter, the noble Baroness, Lady from the last speech, because in Wales, looking at this Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, very much from the point of view of the people who about the nature and culture of the area with which we live there rather than from the point of view of the are dealing. person who represents them, we have lower car use My noble friend’s amendment stipulates that no than in other parts of the Kingdom. Indeed, car use constituency shall have an area greater than that of among women in Wales is much lower. The idea of the present parliamentary constituency of Brecon and being able to travel to meet your Member of Parliament Radnor. I understand why the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, is important. It is not simply a question of the Member says that that surely cannot be. Perhaps I may mention of Parliament going to meet the constituents; the as gently as I can why I disagree with him. Brecon and constituents want to travel either separately or as a Radnor is one example, but an important one. The group to meet their Member of Parliament. current MP,Roger Williams, a notable Liberal Democrat, Ystradgynlais, for example, very much has its own followed the much loved and much lamented Lord culture, its own feeling and its own identity. We have Livsey, who represented that constituency so well. It is our own male voice choir, our own banks, solicitors’ important to recognise that they represented England firms, our Co-op, post office, citizen’s advice, library, and Wales’ largest constituency. For those who live our miners’ welfare and our own cottage hospital. there, as has been clearly outlined, there are real There is an identity there. People share a commonality difficulties in seeing their constituency MP because of of concerns as well as of experience. Indeed, although the distance. It is also the most rural constituency in unusually for my family I am not a Welsh speaker, Wales and the 30th most sparsely populated in the there is a bit of our own Welsh there as well, which will whole of the United Kingdom. I am reliably informed not be recognised everywhere. I am sorry that the that it would apparently be possible to fit Wales’ Reading Clerk has left; he is a great expert on this. smallest constituency, which by geographical area is Certainly when I lived in Anglesey for a time, my Cardiff Central, into Brecon and Radnor 176 times grandmother’s Welsh was not even understood up over. A noble Lord said from a sedentary position, there. We, of course, reckoned that our Welsh was the “And the buses”. best. Transport is a very big issue in Brecon and Radnor, The issue in Wales is not simply of a community and traversing its area can be extremely difficult and that feels its identity but of travel. My noble friend lead to expensive fuel bills. My noble friend Lord Lord Lipsey described very well the issue of driving, Lipsey said that the size of the constituency is 3,014 square but imagine being a woman with no access to a car kilometres. I have in my brief 3,007. I am sure that and therefore travelling by bus and trying to see her noble Lords who come from Wales will tell us who is Member of Parliament. It is almost impossible to do. I correct. However, it is a large constituency with many have a great fear that boundaries are being drawn for difficulties. For this reason we believe that the geographical numerical reasons rather than from understanding a features that are particular to Brecon and Radnor community—particularly in the valleys, although it should be considered by the Boundary Commission will be the same with water, and there will be others, as for Wales when drawing up the constituency boundaries. I argued for the City of London—and that ignore a However, this is not necessarily best achieved by simply recognisable community in which one can travel within imposing a size quota. a reasonable time and can have that joint representation. Democratic Audit recommends that some small If we draw boundaries that ignore geographical size, leeway might be allowed for the construction of we will not let down the Member of Parliament, constituencies in the Welsh valleys. We on this side of because they will rise to the challenge; we will let down the House very much support that, although I absolutely the constituents. understand what the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan Brecon and Radnor only just works now. It may be said—we will talk about Wales in greater detail in due at the limit of what you could call a community. It course. This debate has been short and to the point. does cope, but if it were any larger it would be impossible Crucially, we argue that a more flexible approach to and very sad for the people who live there. the new rules for boundary redesign in general would 803 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 804 enable such consideration. I hope that the Minister, of the Member of Parliament towards his constituency, when he answers, will be kind enough to say that he but there is another concept of equality from the will take back the salient points that have been made viewpoint of the ordinary elector—in other words, in this debate and consider very seriously indeed whether “Do I have an equal access to my Member of Parliament the context in which they are put will enable him to compared with a person in an urban constituency?”. allow the provisions to be a little more flexible than That must be considered. they have appeared to be to date to Members of this House. Lord McNally: Of course one cannot argue that Lord McNally: My Lords, the first thing I would someone who lives in north Kensington has more say about this debate is that it emphasises once again difficulty than someone living in a rural constituency. that not only the inner city seats have particular problems. However, this applies in many constituencies. Although Those on the Benches opposite tack from one side to it is quite right that the question of travel should be another to suit whatever special argument they seem brought up, I know well that Members of all parties to be putting. I remember last week that we were urged who have represented large constituencies have shown to make all kinds of special arrangements for the inner tremendous diligence in making sure that they get city seats, because of the heavy case load, the large around their constituencies and are accessible for surgeries number of unregistered constituents and the like. Now and so on—and, of course, galloping down the line we hear of the problems of constituencies such as towards us is a whole range of new technologies that Brecon and Radnor. I come back to a point I have are transforming the relationship between Members made before; every Member of Parliament has particular and their constituents. However, I hear what has been issues and problems that affect their workload but, in said. the main, it evens out. It is not useful to keep making Down the Corridor, Members have regular contact special pleadings that simply reflect the diversity of and discussions online with constituents, which is a our country and the responsibilities that face each healthy development in our democracy. As my noble Member of Parliament. friend Lord Tyler pointed out, the amendment would adjust the maximum geographical size of any constituency Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Does the noble Lord— to the size of Brecon and Radnor. Under the Bill the maximum area set is, as it happens, that of Ross, Skye Lord McNally: Every time I reply to a debate, the and Lochaber. If the amendment were carried, more noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, finds something on which than 10 constituencies would be out of line with the to ask a question. I can only answer the debate—and UK electoral quota and that would result in too many this time it is about Wales. Go on then; we might as exceptions to the principle of fairness through equally well keep to the rules. weighted votes across the country. The amendment departs from the fundamental principle of the Bill Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: The noble and learned that a vote, wherever it is cast in the UK, should have Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, did not worry broadly equal weight. For that reason I ask the noble about a flurry of interventions from behind him the Lord to withdraw the amendment. other day, so I am sure the noble Lord, Lord McNally, will be able to deal with one or two from the Opposition. The noble Lord rightly points out that we argue Baroness Scotland of Asthal: Does the Minister that Members of Parliament in inner cities have large accept that rule 5 is subject to rule 2 and that rule 2 workloads and that in rural areas they have particular provides the primacy? When it comes to flexibility and responsibilities, extra work and extra difficulties. If interpretation from the commission, does the noble you put those together, is that not an argument for not Lord accept that that would be very limited indeed? reducing the numbers from 650? The whole point of the amendments is to give the commission the sort of real flexibility that it needs to Lord McNally: No, it is an argument for having fair meet some of the difficult issues with which we are votes in fairly drawn constituencies. One or two Members now dealing. I invite the noble Lord to look again at concede that the principle of votes of equal weight is rule 2 because it seems to set the primary course which important—and that is what keeps coming up against the commission would have to follow. Rule 5(3) states the Opposition’s objections. The flexibility that is that this rule has effect subject to rule 2. consistently being urged upon us by the Opposition would, if we accepted every one of their ideas, fatally Lord McNally: I do not resile from that. The Bill undermine the concept of votes of equal weight, and aims to provide fair votes—votes of equal weight in they know that. I am willing to leave it to the independent fairly drawn constituencies. I am not giving way again. Boundary Commission to work out some of the issues The flexibility that the Opposition seek is the flexibility that have been raised. As I have pointed out before, to undermine the Bill and we are not conceding. there are matters within the guidance that would give it certain flexibility, but not to throw the baby out with the bathwater—and the baby in this case is votes of Lord Campbell-Savours: I have a question for the equal weight. noble Lord. The Explanatory Notes state: “The factors are similar to the existing ones. They may consider Lord Elystan-Morgan: Every Member of the House special geographical considerations, such as the size, shape and would agree that the touchstone here is the concept of accessibility of a constituency”. equality. However, equality can mean an arithmetical What do the words “accessibility of a constituency” exactitude when looked at objectively from the viewpoint mean to the noble Lord? 805 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 806

Lord McNally: They mean exactly what they say. and Radnor? All it would do is apply a new rule, under They are guidance to the Electoral Commission in rule 4, to every part of the United Kingdom. However, making its judgments. These are all matters of judgment. you could still find the boundary changes in mid-Wales all too damaging to the communities to which other noble Lords have referred, because the amendment Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his only talks about a size issue; it does not talk about the reply. A large number of government supporters are in existing constituency of Brecon and Radnor. If I may the Chamber tonight and I am delighted to see them. say so, I think that the noble Lord has misled the They may have come in having heard that the Opposition Committee—I would not normally say that because were conducting a filibuster and behaving poorly, he is usually absolutely meticulous—by saying that the contrary to the rules of this House, and that we were amendment would in some way defend the present not subjecting the Bill to scrutiny. They may even have integrity of the seat; it would not. felt that Ministers were being incredibly patient in treating a succession of filibustering speeches as though they should be answered seriously, as the noble and Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I was going to go on to learned Lord, Lord Wallace, has done throughout the refer to the noble Lord and I will do so in a minute but debate. that is yet another nitpicking point. It is up to the Boundary Commission to decide whether to preserve The noble Lord, Lord McNally, has been a friend Brecon and Radnor. I said that in my speech. I did not of mine almost as long as he has been a friend of the mislead the Committee on that point. The chances of noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and it gives me no pleasure the Boundary Commission deciding to preserve Brecon to say what I am going to say. The perfunctory and, and Radnor and then saying, “Perhaps we’ll have a at the end of his speech, bad-tempered response of little bit of that in or take a little bit of that away” is so the Minister gives the lie to what has been said. We absurd a notion as to cast doubt on what could be have had an admirable debate on what I agree is only going on in the mind of the person who did it. The one constituency, but for the people in that constituency noble Lord, Lord Tyler, does indeed have a close it is their constituency and for the people of the relationship with the constituency of Brecon and Radnor. neighbouring constituencies those constituencies are The people of Brecon and Radnor were very pleased theirs and the electoral geography of Wales is its to see him make the long journey to attend Lord electors’ geography. Livsey’s funeral service and it was good to see him We have heard very moving speeches, which were there. Frankly, I am surprised that he has not fallen in particularly noted as they came from a quarter which love with it and that he wants to see it dismembered by had no reason to filibuster for a single second, as the this Government. noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, made clear. The noble As I said, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, did not Baroness, Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord seek to address the specific questions that I raised but Elystan-Morgan, made admirable cases in favour of just made some general points, the main one of which this amendment. Therefore, I find the way that it was was wholly spurious. It is believed—we have heard this treated—I use this word to avoid any asperity of from other Ministers as well—that this Bill creates speech—disappointing. votes of equal weight. It is possible to have a system in I wish to deal, first, with the intervention of the which all votes have equal weight. It is called PR and noble Lord, Lord Tyler, who was half right. He is right most of us are against it. However, in our system all that the amendment has a wider application than votes do not have equal weight. The only votes that Brecon and Radnor. He may not have heard me say determine the result of a British general election are that Brecon and Radnor is the largest constituency in those cast in marginal seats, so the great majority of England and Wales. I am afraid that I am not qualified voters cannot hope to have any impact on the eventual to talk about Northern Ireland but I suspect that most result. That is why politicians of all parties pay particular of the 10 constituencies that would be affected by this court to the middle England voters, as they used to be amendment are in Scotland. This matter can be dealt called—sometimes it is Worcester man or Essex woman with in one of two ways. You can say that the case I or whatever. Theirs are the only votes that count make for Brecon and Radnor embraces all seats where because they are in marginal constituencies. In using there is a very dispersed population—in earlier debates that argument, I fear that the Minister merely illustrates we heard eloquent pleas on behalf of other Scottish the vacuity of the Government’s general case, and it is seats—and that therefore the exemption should indeed only a general case that he has put up against the apply to all Scottish seats, or you can say that Scotland particular factors, which I believe to be of some force. has a very dispersed population and cannot have more We have learnt quite a bit from this debate—I hope than a certain representation, particularly in the light that the Government’s supporters have learnt something of devolution, and that therefore an exception should from it—which is that the Bill needs to be looked at in be made for Scotland. There is something to be said detail and improved to reflect the realities of the for either of those approaches but that does not knock electoral geography of our country, not theoretical down the amendment that I have proposed, nor does it concepts dreamed up by backroom boys who have no influence its effect. experience of the geographical realities of the great country in which we live. I beg leave to withdraw the 11.30 pm amendment.

Lord Tyler: Does the noble Lord accept that, if the Amendment 72 withdrawn amendment were added to the Bill, it would not even preserve the integrity of the present seat of Brecon Amendment 72A not moved. 807 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 808

sets some store; that is not a message from the people Amendment 73 via Parliament to respect certain considerations or to take them into account. It is not a positive criterion at Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark all—it is the absence of a negative criterion. The 73: Clause 11, page 10, line 7, leave out from “Commission” to phrase “may take into account” means that, if you are end of line 8 and insert “should take into account” minded to do so, if you really want to do so, we do not prevent you from doing so. We do not deny you the Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I am asking opportunity of doing so. However, there is no positive the Committee to agree to delete the words, suggestion whatever that these considerations should “may take into account if, and to such extent as they think fit”, be taken into account. Can that seriously be the Government’s intention? Is it seriously the intention and insert “should take into account”. Some noble of anyone in this Committee that some positive value Lords may think that that is just an emphasis of should not be ascribed to considerations such as local words; it is much more than that. Changing “may” to government boundaries, for example, or, going back “should” shows our intent. We want that to happen; it to our former debates, a sense of local community and is important; I think that it must happen. It is vital so on? Surely the whole tone of our debates has been that the Boundary Commission takes into account that these are genuine values, and the question is: what special geographical considerations, local government sort of trade-off should we make between these boundaries and local ties that would be broken by considerations and the desiderata, which are genuine, changes in constituencies and the inconveniences attendant as I have always admitted, in terms of uniformity of on such changes. If the Boundary Commission does numbers? I give way to my noble friend. not do that, frankly, what is the point of the Boundary Commission? Surely all noble Lords would want the Lord Howarth of Newport: When the Bill says “may Boundary Commission to take these factors into account, take into account”, is it not either disingenuous or not leave the provision at “may”. simply confused? In reality, the 5 per cent limit in I am hopeful, as are many other noble Lords, that tolerance around 76,000 voters means that in practical there may be some movement on the Government side terms it will be impossible for the Boundary Commission to take in the concerns expressed in this House. I hope to take these other factors of geography and local that we will not be disappointed later this week. This is government alignments and so forth into account, this House doing its job, because there is no one else should it wish to do so. It can perhaps take them into left to provide the detailed scrutiny. Is it not right that account but there is nothing it can do about them. the Boundary Commission should take it into account that having a constituency on both sides of the Mersey Lord Davies of Stamford: My noble friend makes a or on both sides of the Thames may not be the best very important point. It is a separate point but it is drawn constituency? Is it not right that the Boundary obviously clearly related. If you allow someone to do Commission should take into account the realities of something or if you provide a purely permissive rural communities in Lincolnshire and the relationship criterion—what I would call the lack of a prohibition; between those communities? Is it not right that the that is all it is—the question is whether they will have Boundary Commission should take it into account the slightest motivation in the first place to use that that Nottingham City is a unitary authority? It has permissive ability that they have been granted. As my three Members of Parliament representing seats contained noble friend says, there is no suggestion at all in the wholly within its boundaries, and there are considerable Bill that these matters should be given any consideration differences between the city and the rest of the county. or value whatever. Is it not right that the Boundary Commission should It is perfectly true that, until now, historically the look at the historic county of Rutland and decide that Boundary Commission has in practice tried to respect it is better that it stays with Melton to form one local government boundaries and county boundaries parliamentary seat, rather than being chopped up and in almost all cases, although I gather from our earlier thrown to the winds? Is it not right that the Boundary debate this evening that there may be some exceptions Commission should take account of ward boundaries, in respect of ward boundaries, for example. Nevertheless, as they are the building blocks of our constituencies? we are now giving the Boundary Commission new Is it not right that the Boundary Commission should instructions which do not set any explicit value on take into account the uniqueness of Corby? these things at all. The Bill says, almost reluctantly, As I draw my remarks to a close, I look forward to “Well, you can take account of these things if you the debate and the Minister’s response. really insist on doing so”. However, as my noble friend said, we then provide other constraints—particularly Lord Davies of Stamford: We touched on this matter that of the 5 per cent rule and the requirement to before, but it seems to me important to make the point reduce the number of MPs by 50 to 600, which we quite clearly that there seems to me to be all the know will produce a very large number of boundary difference in the world between “may take into account” changes. In practice, that will make it certain that, and “should take into account”. I ask noble Lords to even if the Boundary Commission is minded to take put themselves in the position of members of the advantage of its ability under the Bill to consider Boundary Commission—or members of any commission matters of local boundaries, it will not be able to do charged by Parliament to undertake an important so. The commission is receiving no indication whatever task. If you have a criterion that says that you “may” from Parliament in the Bill as it currently stands that it do something, that is not a positive criterion; that is might be desirable to retain the tradition which it has not guidance that this is a value on which Parliament long maintained of respecting these boundaries. Therefore, 809 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 810

[LORD DAVIES OF STAMFORD] on this side—Amendment 74B is exactly the one he I think that there is all the difference in the world could accept. I do not think there is anything deficient between “may” and “should”, and I congratulate my in it; it is exactly the right thing. noble friend on bringing this dilemma to the fore. It is I remind my noble friends in particular that when I something that we really do need to discuss. first stood for election in 1970, both for the United We have heard time and again from the Government Kingdom Parliament and for the City of Edinburgh and elsewhere on the government side that, other Council—I got elected to that council in that year but things being equal, they believe it is inherently desirable not to the Westminster Parliament—at that time in that local boundaries are respected. Can they not, if Scotland, there were effectively two layers of government: they wish to do so, come up with different wording local government, elected by first past the post, and which at least reflects the value that they the United Kingdom Government at Westminster, acknowledge we should be attributing to these elected by first past the post. I am sure my noble friend considerations? Can they not send a signal to the Lord McAvoy remembers those halcyon days only too Boundary Commission which says in effect, “If you well. In 2011, we now have councils and larger wards possibly could, we would be delighted if you were to elected by the single transferable vote; we have the take account of local boundaries”? Can we not send Scottish Parliament, elected by the additional member some signal or instruction to the Boundary Commission system; we have Westminster, still elected, thankfully, saying, “For generations”—ever since 1949, I believe— by first past the post, and the European Parliament, “you’ve been right to take account of these considerations. elected by a strange system of proportional representation. Please don’t drop that now. We aren’t trying to tell you I am not blaming the Government or their predecessor that that was wrong. We aren’t trying to tell you that for all of these— you should go back on that tradition or those values and ignore them. We’re not just giving you a reluctant Lord Davies of Stamford: I am grateful to my noble permission if you really insist on taking account of friend for giving way. I have been fascinated by this these things; we would like you to do so if you can description, which is very clear and concise, of the somehow manage it”. extraordinarily complicated voting system there is in That surely is the sense of the message that Parliament Scotland. What proportion of his former constituents wants to send to the Boundary Commission—the does he think would be capable of setting out as sense of the message that has been articulated in clearly as he has just done the clear categories involved different ways from all parts of House, including from in voting for these different levels of government and the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, who has taken an important the mechanisms employed in each case? part in these debates. Surely the Government cannot really, on reflection, be entirely satisfied with this very Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Actually, quite a lot of negative formulation of “may”. I hope they can accept them, because we still have a very good education the proposal of my noble friend that the text should be system in Scotland, at a very high level. We have changed to “should”. If not, can they not find some provided explorers, inventors, and leaders, not just for better way of encapsulating the message which, I am the United Kingdom but for the Commonwealth and sure, in good faith, they themselves have been delivering around the world. The first Labour Prime Minister to us, not just tonight but throughout our deliberations anywhere was in Australia and he was a Scotsman— on this Bill? indeed, he was an Ayrshire man, even better. Nevertheless, the noble Lord’s point is absolutely 11.45 pm right. It is a very complicated system, not just for the Scottish voter, who can understand it, but for the Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: We are debating not just administration. That is why anything that can be done the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Kennedy by the Government to simplify the arrangements instead but, if I understand it correctly, we are dealing with of making them even more complicated would be 12 amendments—each one of great importance. Perhaps good. As I was saying in mitigation, I do not blame it is worth noting that, if we actually had wanted to Conservative or Tory-led coalition Governments for filibuster, we could have degrouped all these amendments bringing in all these schemes. Far from it—Labour and taken two hours on each of them. Maybe, since Governments brought them in, and I think it is there are no Cross-Benchers here, there is no one here unfortunate that we have ended up with such a complicated to convince of that, so I will get on to the specifics of system. That is why I argue the case for Amendment 74B. the two amendments that I have tabled and left in the I hope that some of my colleagues will elaborate on grouping. that at a later stage. Amendment 74B, which I particularly want the The other amendment that I want to talk to at a Minister to take note of, relates to the use of ward little greater length is Amendment 74A. I think that, boundaries. My recollection was that, in reply to a with no disrespect to my other amendments, it is one previous debate, the Minister—the noble Lord, Lord of the most important, if not the most important, McNally—confirmed that he saw ward boundaries as amendments that I have tabled. As I mentioned on an the building blocks for all of the boundaries that we earlier amendment, page 10 sets out that a Boundary were going to look at, whether it was 600 or 650, Commission may—one of the amendments suggested whether they were preserved or whatever. We on this “must” should replace “may”— side were all encouraged by that. If he wants an “take into account, if and to such an extent as they think fit … amendment to encapsulate that very simply, and to special geographical considerations, including in particular the accept an amendment—which would be really welcome size, shape and accessibility of a constituency”. 811 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 812

My amendment is probably not the most elegant, but I Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend is right. think it is a key amendment. It adds “the wealth of a I could not have put it better myself. He also reminds constituency”. That is probably not the best word to me that our noble friend Lord Sewel made a pertinent use. It could have been “deprivation” or “poverty” in intervention earlier, to which neither the noble Lord, contrast to wealth. The Minister, with all his advisers, Lord Forsyth, or the Minister replied, about the Act will correct me if I am wrong, but my recollection is of Union. Something that we might look at over the that way back in the early 1970s when the Boundary coming days is whether the provisions of the Act of Commissions were looking at boundary reviews, a Union are being adhered to or whether they are being similar factor was included for their consideration. I broken by this Bill. That is something that we had not seem to remember going to boundary hearings—which really thought of until the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, we still have, unless this Bill becomes an Act—and as raised it, but there may be some provisions in the Act well as arguing the physical boundaries, arguing the of Union giving particular guarantees to Scotland case for the relative poverty and deprivation in an that are not contained in this Bill. area. I think that should be included. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation in a recent report The noble Lord, Lord McNally, who generously said that since the 1980s wealthier people have moved gave way to me for an intervention in his reply on the to the suburbs while the poor remain in inner cities, previous debate, was arguing very convincingly a again strengthening the case for some account being conclusion that he did not come to. It was that lots of taken of the wealth of the constituency. constituencies have particular problems. In rural Scotland, the problem is sparsity. It is an astonishing fact that Lord Kinnock: In an earlier exchange, the noble Scotland represents one-third of the land area of the Lord, Lord McNally, was somewhat scornful of United Kingdom and the highlands of Scotland represent arguments made from this side of the House that one-fifth. That is a very strong argument for what my additional workloads had to be borne by Members of noble friend Lord Stevenson and others were arguing Parliament representing deprived areas, such as inner-city earlier on about the importance of sparsity. areas or poor rural areas. Does my noble friend think that in those circumstances, with a reduced number of Equally, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said that Members in the House of Commons, the people of others from inner-city areas were arguing the particular whom he speaks, who have relatively low incomes and problems of inner cities and deprivation. That is absolutely who live in relatively deprived circumstances, would true. This side has been arguing that. They are not take up the suggestion offered by the Minister to conflicting arguments, they are complementary, and resort to electronic means of contacting their Member they are arguments for not reducing the total number of Parliament? What does my noble friend from his of constituencies. We have been deploying them because extensive experience think would be the incidence of some areas have inexplicably been taken out to be resort to electronic means of communicating with made special cases, whether Orkney and Shetland or Members of Parliament satisfactorily undertaken by the figures that we discussed earlier that give special people from deprived backgrounds, particularly the status to Ross, Skye and Lochaber. I think we need elderly? specifically to include something in relation to deprivation. Scottish Government findings have shown that in Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend is right. 2008-09, 34 per cent of individuals in deprived areas It is the highly articulate middle-class people who have were in relative poverty, before housing costs, but in access to a range of electronic equipment and can use the rest of Scotland, that figure was 14 per cent, which it. As my noble friend knows, until the end of March I is a huge difference. That means extra problems of am an elected Member of the Scottish Parliament. I benefits and housing that Members of Parliament get a lot of e-mails from constituents, but they are have to deal with. I know when I was a Member of almost invariably highly articulate middle-class Parliament, housing and benefits were the top issues constituents, particularly younger and middle-aged that I had to deal with. That was in a relatively people. The older, less well off do not have the same deprived former mining area. access to this kind of equipment. Midnight Lord McAvoy: My noble friend makes a fascinating Lord Howarth of Newport: Is it not unfortunately point about the sparseness of population in the rural true that people who are significantly less well off than constituencies in Scotland. Is he aware that the Act of those in the affluent constituencies that my noble Union in 1707 gave Scotland 45 seats in the new friend was just talking of will be even less likely to be 558-seat Parliament and 16 elected Peers in your able to afford to resort to electronic means of Lordships’ House? Of those 45 seats in the House of communication given the cuts in benefit that the coalition Commons, 30 represented the 33 Scottish counties. is planning? At least, until now, they might have had Twenty-seven counties were given a single seat and the opportunity to go to the public library to find a three pairs of smaller counties alternated with one computer to communicate with my noble friend’s successor another in electing a Member. This reflected the situation as Member of Parliament, but that, too, will be less that the counties had in the Scottish Parliament by likely to be available for them as a result of the cuts to 1707, although in 1690—not a particularly good year public library provision. in many ways—a redistribution Act was passed that increased the number of commissioners returning to Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend is again the Scottish Parliament. Even in those days, the system right. I sat through about half of the debate on was selective and took into account all sorts of housing benefit and was really impressed by the speeches circumstances. from all sides, particularly from the Liberal Democrats— 813 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 814

[LORD FOULKES OF CUMNOCK] Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend is absolutely including my old friend the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood right. I found it starkly revealing to sit next to colleagues of Kirkhope—all arguing against the cuts in housing in the House of Commons who represented constituencies benefit. The cuts will certainly make it more difficult in Bradford or Birmingham, where more than half the for poor people to access their elected representatives. people whom they represented were from immigrant As my noble friend said, cuts to library services will families. They may not have been immediate have the same effect. immigrants—they might have been second or third To illustrate the increasing demand in MPs’ casework, generation—but there were a huge number of them. It I quote a couple of examples that I hope, since they do was a real revelation to me to find out about the huge not come particularly from Labour, might convince workload arising from that. Repatriation of some of Members opposite. According to Wilks-Heeg and the money that they raised was one way in which their Clayton, authors of Whose Town is it Anyway? The spending income was reduced. My noble friend Lady State of Local Democracy in Two Northern Towns, Liddell was in the same situation as me, representing a published in 2006 by the Joseph Rowntree Charitable former mining constituency. We had a huge case load Trust, an MP in the 1950s or 1960s, which is even of former miners, after the previous Conservative before I was a Member of Parliament and probably Government under Mrs Thatcher forced the closure of even before my noble friend Lord Kinnock was— the mines in Scotland and elsewhere. They were getting compensation for pneumoconiosis, silicosis and vibration Lord Kinnock: Just. white finger. I had not dozens but hundreds and hundreds of people coming to see me and each of Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: At that time, the report them had a huge problem to raise. So we learnt that says, an MP, from each other. “might have required less than a few hours each week to respond to the handful of letters she received from constituents. By Lord Howarth of Newport: My noble friend draws contrast, a newly-elected MP told a Hansard Society meeting at a attention to the large volume of casework that falls to party conference in Autumn 2010 that she had received over 20,000 emails to her parliamentary address between May and be carried out by Members of Parliament representing, September 2010”. for example, former mining constituencies or That indicates the growing volume of work. An eloquent constituencies with a high proportion of immigrants description of the crushing casework demand of an resident in them. In doing so, does he not highlight the inner London MP was written by Greg Hands, then fancifulness of the Government’s contention that they Conservative MP for Hammersmith and Fulham, in will save £12 million by reducing the size of the House December 2007. He said: of Commons from 650 to 600? I understand that that “Incredibly, I have at present between 700 and 800 unresolved £12 million is compounded of £4 million for MPs’ immigration cases—that’s out of a total constituency of just over salaries and £8 million for their office costs. In light of 80,000 electors”. the factors that my noble friend has just mentioned, If a third of an inner London MP’s casework is they are plainly not going to save the office costs immigration-based, an inner-city MP is likely to be component of that. In fact, those costs would have to doing half as much other casework as an MP with rise for individual Members of Parliament to enable very few such cases, as I had in a rural area in them to carry out their duties. Would not it therefore Scotland. That is not satisfactory in terms of equality be better to be done with it and stay with at least the of representation. This points to the sense of equality existing number of Members of Parliament? of population rather than registered electorate being the key criterion, as an MP represents the whole Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I absolutely agree. The constituency. That is covered in an amendment to more that we go through this Bill, paragraph by paragraph, which I shall come later this morning. the more it unravels—and the more it becomes clear that the original contention that we should reduce the Lord Davies of Oldham: My noble friend has spoken number from 650 to 600 is absolutely crazy. The initial about wealth in constituencies and has just reflected premise forces the Government into all the other crazy on the question of immigrants in constituencies as things in the Bill, such as preserved constituencies and well. Is he aware of the phenomenon that always the figure of 13,000 square kilometres. struck me so forcefully as a former MP for Oldham, which had a very significant Asian community, which Viscount Eccles: Does the noble Lord not think that was that the figures and statistics for the earning he is stretching the meaning of the word “scrutiny” power of the constituency, which was very poor, could rather wide? In that connection, I strongly recommend not take into account the fact that a significant number to the party opposite that it should not try to form a of people, despite earning very limited amounts of team for “Just a Minute”, because it would be ruled money, were in the practice of sending a considerable out of order in no time at all both for repetition and percentage of their earnings back home to poorer for deviation. relatives elsewhere? For me, it brought to mind something not dissimilar to the old-fashioned tithe, when 10 per Lord Kinnock: There are no teams in “Just a Minute”. cent of one’s income went to the church. That did not count as revenue or income that the state could tackle Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Has the noble Viscount because it was secreted for the church. A great deal of seen the groupings list for today? Is he aware that in the few resources that individuals in the immigrant this group there are 12 amendments, all dealing with community in the United Kingdom command is matters of great importance? I am talking to two of expatriated. them—one in relation to the ward, which I dealt with 815 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 816 in about five minutes, and a very important one about possible proof beyond any reasonable doubt for any poverty. I know that the noble Viscount perhaps does Member of the Cross Benches, any Member of this not understand poverty— House or any member of the public that these are simply delaying tactics of a wholly unreasonable nature. Viscount Eccles: None of the amendments in the Students of political history such as me will have group refers to the reduction from 650 to 600. The studied how— recommendation in the 1986 Act, which rules today, was 613. Sometimes, if I may say so, the word “scrutiny” Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My Lords— is being murdered.

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Sometimes, also, actions Lord Rennard: No, my Lords, I am sorry. I am not have consequences that are unseen and unpredicted. It going to give way because we should try to make is only when we examine collectively the provisions progress. I will say why: there are some significant that these unintended consequences become obvious. points that we should be looking at in terms of scrutiny. It is our duty and responsibility to point them out. But I agree with some of the points that the noble Lord, before the noble Viscount intervened, I was coming to Lord Foulkes, has made on the ward boundaries. If we the end of what I was saying. were to look at all 12 amendments in this group, the last three of them, which are in my name and that of Lord Howarth of Newport: Might the implication of my noble friend Lord Tyler, are technical amendments the intervention by the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, to flag up formally to the Boundary Commissions really be that we have not tabled enough amendments the importance of the ward boundaries. Unlike to enable us to scrutinise every aspect of the Bill point Amendment 74B in the name of the noble Lord, Lord by point? Indeed, I suggest to my noble friend that he Foulkes, they are rather more correct because they is being remarkably constrained. For example, we deal with the issue of the ward boundaries in its should consider the fact that in the Legislative Assembly relevant place within the Bill, rather than in just one of Ontario in 1997 the opposition parties tabled place. 11,500 amendments to a Bill intended by the Progressive Unlike other arguments relating to other amendments Conservative Government in Ontario to amalgamate within this group, it seems to me that the importance metropolitan Toronto with the city of Toronto. Does of our amendments is that they are not prescriptive in that not make my noble friends on this side of the that they do not demand that ward boundaries never House appear to have been remarkably self-disciplined be crossed. However, they say to the Boundary and restrained in their tabling of amendments? Commissions that they are an important building block. They should not necessarily always be adhered Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I certainly agree. I feel to but they should be taken into account to some almost inadequate in terms of our scrutiny in the light degree. The origin of these last three amendments of what my noble friend has said, but I finish— within the group was my own puzzlement in looking at the wording of the Bill, where there is a reference to Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Does my noble friend wards in Northern Ireland but none to ward boundaries also agree that having no Green Paper, no White Paper in England, Scotland or Wales. I thought that it would and no draft Bill has caused some of the problems that be helpful if a little clarity were given to the Boundary we are experiencing now? Commissioners about the importance of ward boundaries as one of the factors that they should take into account. Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: My noble friend is absolutely As we know from the informal evidence provided right. I would have preferred to have had the opportunity by their members, the Boundary Commissions will, in of being on a committee to scrutinise the Bill before it any event, have every intention of looking at ward came before this House. I would have been happy to boundaries, but it would be better if the legislation deal with some of these points during the pre-legislative were improved, if possible. I hope that the Minister scrutiny. However, I know that many of my noble will respond by saying that this is something that friends will want to come in on one or other of these might be considered as an improvement to the legislation. 12 amendments and I certainly do not want personally The language with which we look at issues such as to detain the House any longer. ward boundaries or other boundaries is, in my view, of some importance to the Boundary Commission processes. Lord Rennard: My Lords, the statement from the There are alternatives within these different amendments, noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, that he does not wish to using either “should”, “must” or insofar as they see detain the Committee any further will perhaps be a fit. It seems to me that there is a good reason why the welcome relief to the small number of people who previous legislation on Boundary Commissions and may be watching the parliament channel at the moment. this legislation tend to use the phrase “insofar as they Anybody who is watching or perhaps even reads this see fit”. You can suggest that boundary commissioners debate in Hansard tomorrow will clearly see that in the look at different criteria when they redraw the constituency past 26 minutes we have had yet again an extensive boundaries, but it is very hard to rank them in any and irrelevant filibuster in the Committee, rather than priority or say that one carries more weight than serious scrutiny. I suggest to anyone following this another. The commissioners have to look at competing debate that, were they to look at the last half-hour of priorities. By saying, “in so far as they see fit”, independent our debates on Wednesday night—or the early hours and impartial people would be given the power to of Thursday morning—which were again led by the choose the relative weight of geographic ties, minimising noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, they would see the clearest inconvenience and such factors, and we would also 817 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 818

[LORD RENNARD] to raise in this group of amendments. The first concerns avoid the danger of getting to the end of this process the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and the boundary commissioners being drawn into making the boundary commissioners take into account political rows and continuous legal challenges. By their perceptions of the socioeconomic base or relative using the phrase, “in so far as they see fit”, we would wealth of each constituency. Over the decades in which allow the boundary commissioners to exercise their many of us have been involved in Boundary Commission judgment while minimising legal snarl-ups thereafter. processes, I have not heard it seriously argued by anybody that the boundary commissioners are anything Lord Kinnock: I am very grateful to the noble Lord other than impartial and independent. However, my and I have a great deal of sympathy with the case that view is that we should not start asking them to exercise he is putting forward. However, will he not join me in their judgment about the relative wealth of different recognising that, before any Boundary Commission constituencies, using different, competing socioeconomic gives consideration to this Bill, let alone the Bill as factors, or to try to use their judgment to suggest that, amended in the way that the noble Lord wants, they because certain MPs have a lot of problems of this are completely ensnared by the reality that, in all and nature or fewer problems of that nature, these seats any circumstances, they must return boundaries for should be varied in some way. How could the boundary precisely 600 constituencies, or, more appropriately, commissioners possibly be expected to be seen to be 598 constituencies because two are protected? Does impartial and independent in their judgment? I suggest that not remove a great deal of the effective discretion that that is not a serious factor that the boundary that should be employed, in the way that he suggests, commissioners should have to take into account. by independent-minded boundary commissioners taking full account of precisely the arguments that he is Having seen many submissions to public inquiries making and arguments that have been deployed on on Boundary Commission processes and read many of both sides of the Chamber in our debates hitherto? them in the past, I have thought that the criteria which people sometimes think could be applied are not serious Lord Rennard: I do not accept that the democratic ones on which you would expect the commission to principle is such a constraint. The criteria in the Bill impartially draw the constituencies in the way that given to the four Boundary Commissions are remarkably it has. similar to the criteria we have had in historic legislation Finally within this group, I want to comment on dealing with how the Boundary Commissions work. Amendment 76, which concerns eliminating references There is then the issue of the number of seats, but I do to the euro regions with particular regard to the way in not accept that the number of seats will affect too which the Boundary Commission for England works. much the way in which the boundary commissioners That does not seem a sensible way in which to suggest choose to judge the importance of those competing that the Boundary Commission for England should factors. go about its business. The Bill is not prescriptive in saying that it must follow the boundaries of the euro Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan: My Lords— regions but, if it is to work in a sensible way across the Lord Rennard: I am sorry but I will not give way whole of England, it could not possibly start in, say, again on this point. Perhaps I may be allowed to finish Northumberland, go down to the Isles of Scilly and the point that I am responding to from the noble then go across to Kent. In order to make this effective, Lord, Lord Kinnock, and again make the point that I we need to retain the language in the Bill suggesting have had to make when this position has been taken that the euro regions may be building blocks that the many, many times in debate on many amendments commissioners use, saying that they will want to work during the passage of the Bill over the 12 days of simultaneously on the south-east, the south-west and Committee so far. It seems to me that it is not uncommon the north-east, and have a proper process of scrutiny in many countries for Parliaments to fix the size of that could be effective with online representations. Parliaments, usually through a written constitution. They will need to work simultaneously on the different As the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, will know, my regions rather than across England as a whole. party, and I in particular, think that it is very important to have a written constitution. I believe that in this Lord Soley: The noble Lord who has just spoken country we are moving, in one way and another, makes a fundamental mistake when he says that towards a written constitution, but it is absolutely not Parliaments in other countries decide the size of unprecedented nor considered remotely undemocratic constituencies. He is right that they do, but the problem in other countries for Parliament to determine the here is that the Government are deciding it. In other number of seats that there should be. In the United countries, political parties agree it, usually jointly or States, for example, it is the constitution that sets out independently. That is all I want to say about that but that there shall be two members of the Senate for each it is an important point: Governments do not decide state. That appears very early in the principles of the the structure and size of Parliaments; Parliaments United States constitution. Therefore, I do not accept decide that, and they normally do it by consent. that the Boundary Commissions are unduly constrained in this way. Lord Tyler: Does the noble Lord not recognise that the House of Commons has voted? Lord Soley: My Lords— Lord Rennard: No, my Lords, I want to make Lord Soley: I certainly recognise that. I also recognise progress on my argument and allow us to proceed with that this is a bicameral House and I hope that it stays a couple of issues of serious scrutiny that I still want as such. One of the jobs of a bicameral House is for 819 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 820 the second Chamber to revise what the first Chamber The Minister might well say that it could bring up has done, and that is particularly important on legal challenges. I understand that that could be a constitutional issues. problem. We do not want lots of reviews by the courts I return to the core amendment. I want to speak of such things. Having said that, there is no way that only on Amendment 73, but there is a wider point here we can assume that these factors are not important. that affects some of the others. There is great diversity Nor is there any reason to assume that the number of in this group of amendments, and it might have been challenges in a court of law would necessarily be better if some of them had been separated out. Those different if we used the softer word of “may”. That tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Rennard and Lord does not rule out a legal challenge. It might make it Tyler, might have been better as a separate group more difficult to win but it does not rule it out, as I because there is quite a bit in them that is separate understand the law. from the others. I will focus my comments just on this one point, but I want to focus on Amendment 73 in the name of it is very important because it runs throughout the my noble friend Lord Kennedy, where he suggests Bill. I understand why the Government, for party replacing the word “may” with “shall”. Many people political reasons, have locked themselves into “shall” in this Committee will recognise that the wording of a for the number of seats in Parliament. What I do not Bill and the use of words such as “may” is critically understand is why they cannot also use “shall”—the important, because it carries legal weight. The word stronger legal version—for issues that they say are “should” is not very different from “may” and, I say to important and we all say are important. This is perhaps my noble friend, not much better. the best example. My noble friend Lord Kennedy has drawn attention to that discrepancy. The Minister This point is important because it relates to some of needs to explain why we cannot have a straight change the other amendments in this group. Why do we not to the Bill here, so that it reads: use the word “shall” in relation to my noble friend’s “A Boundary Commission shall take into account, if and to amendment? It is a stronger commitment. The Minister such extent as they think fit”, will know that, in several other places following this, followed by the four factors. the word “shall” is used. The obvious example is in rule 6 the new schedule, which states: Lord Campbell-Savours: The intervention of the “There shall continue to be … a constituency named Orkney and Shetland”. noble Lord, Lord Rennard, in response to my noble friend Lord Kinnock, ignored one simple issue; the The Government want that to be legally enforced, so Bill introduces a cap on seats. Once you introduce a the use of the word “shall” is essential. In rule 5, cap, there is no flexibility. Whatever responsibilities, however, as my noble friend has picked out, the word powers and so on you give the Boundary Commission, “may” is used. In other words, it states: it will always have that in mind in whatever decision it “A Boundary Commission may take into account, if and to takes on any boundary in the United Kingdom. such extent as they think fit … special geographical considerations”. I will come to the wording of this rule in a minute, The Explanatory Notes to the Bill and many of the but I will first reply to something else that the noble things that Ministers have said from time to time Lord, Lord Rennard, said. In his preamble to dealing indicate that they also regard the things listed in with the amendment, he addressed himself to the rule 5(1)(a) to (d)—that is, special geographical factors, parliamentary channel and those who are listening. In local government, local ties and the inconvenience so far as he did so, I will equally do so. He appeared to attendant on such changes—as very important. be in order because no one objected. It is important Schedule 2, the measure that is driving them forward for people who are watching the parliamentary channel on this Bill, says: to understand that we are sitting here now at half past “The electorate of any constituency shall”— midnight—we may well sit all night—because some of so there they are using a very strong form of wording us believe in a very simple principle. Because this is a that has strong legal force. However, back over the constitutional Bill, the process by which it is being page, as I say, they use the much softer word “may”, dealt with in Parliament is the wrong one. There has which does not have that commitment. been no Green Paper, no White Paper, no prior scrutiny of draft legislation and no consultation with the political I am after an answer from the Minister because this parties. A number has simply been pulled out of the question affects other parts of the Bill—certainly some air, inserted into the Bill in the middle of frantic of those affected in this group of amendments—but I negotiations over the formation of a Government, am trying to focus on one for the sake of clarity. There and handed to parliamentary counsel or the people is in fact no reason why we should not also use the who write legislation to produce it in the Bill, which word “shall” in rule 5. If we are all saying, as the now has to be rammed through both Houses of Government have done, that we want these things to Parliament. be taken into consideration, the use of the word would not undermine the use of “shall” in rule 2(1)— That brings me to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Tyler. He said that the other House voted on the “The electorate of any constituency shall”. Bill. It is true that it voted on it, but there was no real It would simply instruct the Boundary Commission in debate in the House of Commons on this matter a much more forceful way to take into account the because of a contractual agreement between two parties factors that Ministers and Members on all sides of the to a coalition. That contractual agreement means that Committee say are important. I do not see why we there is no free debate between two major parties in should not ask the Boundary Commission to do that. British politics: the Liberal Democrat party and the 821 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 822

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] even bother to carry out any function at all. The Conservative Party. If there are people watching the Government might just as well draw up the map and parliamentary channel, they might for once stop and not even have a Boundary Commission. think that there may be an explanation for what is going on in the House of Commons. I have put it in my language; I am sure that all my noble friends could Lord Kinnock: In the context of an earlier debate put in theirs if they so wished. that we had on the constituency of Brecon and Radnor, much was made of the fact that because Brecon and I move now to the comments of the noble Viscount, Radnor is about a third or a quarter of the size of the Lord Eccles, who referred to 318. I do not think 318 very large Scottish constituencies, the whole process was a cap, was it? It was a target. would be altered radically if that amendment had been adopted. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, made the 12.30 am point, and he made it very trenchantly. Because there Viscount Eccles: It is 613. is a cap—not a target, as my noble friend has said, but a cap—every one of those considerations on rule 5(1)(a) Lord Campbell-Savours: I am sorry; 613. I got the to (d) would be in play so far as the Boundary Commission number wrong. is concerned in Brecon and Radnor, but it will have to ignore most of (a) to (d) because any rational consideration of this most rural of English and Welsh constituencies Lord Bach: It is important that we get this absolutely means that in order for the number 600 to be reached, right at this stage. I do not want to prolong this. I want there will have to be an extension, either northwards to speak on my amendment in a moment, but let me into Montgomeryshire, Sir Drefaldwyn, or further to just say that rule 1(1) of 1986 rules says: the west into Ceredigion or into the south Wales “The number of constituencies in Great Britain shall not be valleys. None of those considerations could be brought substantially greater or less than 613”. to bear by the Boundary Commission simply because You add to that the Northern Irish figure, which is it could not afford to deviate from the number 600 by between 16 and 18, making a total not more or less one, let alone by the 13 that would have been possible than 630. I think the wording is very important, and I under the 1986 legislation or other numbers that have think the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, will appreciate been targets under predecessor legislation. that. This Bill does something quite different.

Lord Campbell-Savours: I am sorry. I got the numbers Lord Campbell-Savours: I would like to have heard wrong, but the point that I am making is very simple. in the debate more references to the distinction between It was not a cap; it was a target. That is what is wrong targets and caps, because that is essentially what we with this legislation. We are talking about caps and are debating. I agree with my noble friend. I was not targets. When you have targets, the Boundary listening to the intervention of my noble friend who Commission then has flexibility.It knows what Parliament moved the amendment, and the intervention of the wants, it knows what people are moving towards, but noble Lord, Lord Tyler, who referred to the new it can take into account all the additional pressures constituency that would be created being the maximum. and considerations that normally arise during the It would be a huge constituency that would be utterly course of public inquiries about decisions that it has unmanageable, where the issue of accessibility would to take. simply have gone out of the window, which is why I asked the noble Lord, Lord McNally, how he understands I turn now to the actual wording of the rule. The the relevance of accessibility. That constituency would amendments that we are dealing with are essentially have no proper representation. It would not be possible about rule 5(1) on page 10 of the Bill. The noble Lord, in the context of the size of the constituency that Lord Rennard, quite rightly refers specifically to this would be created. It could not, by any stretch of the question of, “If they think fit”. Those words are very imagination, have proper representation. important, because they are part of the first sentence in the rule: However, I wish to use paragraph 5(b) to the proposed new schedule, referring to, “A Boundary Commission may take into account, if and to such an extent as they think fit”, “local government boundaries as they exist on the most recent when considering these matters. That leaves it with ordinary council-election day before the review date”, two options. It can either take them into account or it as a peg to draw attention to the conversation that can ignore them. If it goes on to ignore, took place at one of my dinner engagements last week. Someone raised an issue, and I suddenly thought, “(a) special geographical considerations, including in particular the size, shape and accessibility of a constituency; “That is particularly relevant to what we are discussing in this House”. The whole process in which we are (b) local government boundaries as they exist on the most recent ordinary council-election day before the review date; involved is, we are told, essentially about equalisation. (c) any local ties that would be broken by changes in constituencies; The noble Lord, Lord McNally, keeps referring to votes of equal value. That is a very interesting principle. (d) the inconveniences attendant on such changes”. The question is: where, when and in what circumstances in my view it would not be carrying out its function. do you apply that principle? I want to draw attention The Boundary Commission’s function is to consider to other circumstances where that should equally apply, those matters, but if it cannot carry out its proper if you take the word that everyone is using, “localism”, consideration of those matters because of the cap, its into account. I want to see whether this localism—a whole raison d’être is defeated and it may as well not sort of bottom-up principle—applies to this area. 823 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 824

I want to give as an example what is going on in are elected in wards with half that number of people Westminster, where we now sit. We are within the area on the register. I give way to the noble Lord, Lord of the Westminster local authority. I have here a list of Garel-Jones. all the wards within that authority. I was wondering how far this principle of equal votes of equal value Lord Garel-Jones: If the noble Lord, Lord Campbell- applied in Westminster. I simply draw the attention of Savours, finds the lack of equalisation within boroughs the House to what is going here. If we are prepared to so offensive, why does he not find it so for parliamentary have flexibility here in Westminster, why can we not constituencies? apply the same flexibility throughout the whole of the United Kingdom? In every ward in Westminster there Lord Campbell-Savours: I do not know whether the are three councillors. There are 20 wards. I want to noble Lord popped in at this hour or a couple of draw attention to the variation in electorates within hours ago, but he will find that it is the inconsistency the council area where the Houses of Parliament that is worrying me. If we were to have a consistent stand. Knightsbridge and Belgravia has an electorate approach on these matters, then the Boundary of 6,400, Tatchbrook has 6,400, Churchill 6,500, West Commission would have, to some extent, greater flexibility End 6,600, Marylebone High Street 6,700, Little Venice available to it in the decisions it is required to take. 7,100, Maida Vale 7,200, Warwick 7,200, Vincent Square 7,300, Abbey Road 7,300, Bayswater 7,400, Lord Liddle: I support, particularly, the first part of Church Street 7,500, Regent’s Park 7,600, Hyde Park the argument of my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours 7,700, Bryanston and Dorset Square 7,800, St James’s and the argument of my distinguished noble friend 7,900, Harrow Road 7,900, Queen’s Park 8,100, Lancaster Lord Kinnock. The key point about this section of the Gate 8,200 and Westbourne 8,300. Bill which the Government have not satisfactorily It seems that in Westbourne, the 8,300 electors answered is that the function of the Boundary voted in three councillors; but if you live in Knightsbridge Commission, as it has operated since the Boundary or Belgravia, the 6,400 electors vote for three councillors. Commission was established by all-party agreement Where are votes for equal value there? We are dealing during the Second World War, will be drastically curtailed with the budget of one the largest local authorities in by this legislation. the country. I understand that Westminster’s budget is Although all the nice, reassuring words about taking greater than those of some government departments. account of communities, geography and so on will still What about votes of equal value? Councillors elected be there, the work of the Boundary Commission will to those wards are taking decisions on the use of these be curtailed as a result of the cap on the number of vast resources. I find it incredible that—guess what?—the MPs. The Bill does not say that we should have largest electorates to elect the three councillors are in 600 MPs but the Boundary Commission can increase the Labour wards. So, built in to the arrangements for the numbers by five or 10 or 15 in order to take this votes-of-equal-value principle is an arrangement account of local circumstances; it imposes a rigid in Westminster whereby Labour voters are penalised number. There is also the corset of the 5 per cent of and the individual voter has less influence on the either side of the quota. The effect of these two expenditure of Westminster City Council. So much measures will be to completely change the flexibility for votes of equal value. and discretion that the Boundary Commission has Someone else told me that this is going on all over been able to exercise, under all-party agreement, since the country. the Second World War. Why do the Government feel that they have a mandate to make that change without Lord Howarth of Newport: The situation in the consulting all parties through a Speaker’s Conference? constituency of the Cities of London and Westminster What argument do they have for doing this? I do not is even worse than my noble friend has suggested. It is think that there is a good argument. a constituency where under-registration is particularly Once again, from my own part of the world, I shall extreme. It is thought that the registered electorate in use an illustration of what the impact of these changes that constituency is only some 60 per cent of the will be, so that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, understands 16-plus population. So we are talking about extremely how he is tearing up decades of cross-party agreement skewed patterns of electoral representation in both on how the Boundary Commission should operate. local government and the Westminster constituency of Let me talk a little about my beloved Cumberland. this part of London. Before my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours became MP for Workington, I remember as a young man that Lord Campbell-Savours: My noble friend has referred the Boundary Commission came up with a proposal to an issue that I intend to raise. I do not know that Cumberland—this was before Cumbria—should whether we will be going at eight o’clock or nine o’clock be created— tomorrow morning, but we may well get to the amendment where I wish to raise that issue. I have some important Lord Rennard: Will the noble Lord tell us which information to place on the public record about the amendment he is speaking for or against in these population of the Westminster area and we can perhaps remarks? deal with those matters later on. On the Westminster statistics, when I was in Lord Liddle: I am in favour of the amendments that conversation today with others I was told that Westminster would change the wording from may to shall or must has by no means the worse differential in its electorate; because I feel very strongly that the wording is being there are parts of the country where some councillors kept as it was in the previous legislation but disguising 825 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 826

[LORD LIDDLE] electoral regions. Of course, these are all sensible that a fundamental change is being introduced. The factors that ought to be considered by a Boundary noble Lord, Lord Rennard, knows that very well. It is Commission in the course of its deliberations and all part of a deal that his party has done with the should impact on the outcome of such deliberations, Conservative Party without consultation with other but the interplay between this rule and some of the parties, which is without intellectual justification. other rules set out in the Bill mean that the Boundary Let us think about the situation in the 1960s when Commissions will not be able to give proper weight to the Boundary Commission suggested that Cumberland this list of factors. should come down from four to three seats. There was Take the issue of inconvenience. Rule 5(1)(d) states an inquiry and it was decided that on grounds of that the, community and geographical representation the four “Boundary Commission may take into account, if and to such seats should be kept. In the 1980s and 1990s, with the extent as they think fit … the inconveniences attendant on such new county of Cumbria, as I mentioned before, the changes”. quota did not justify having six seats. The Boundary But if we read across to rule 9(2)—that reference Commission used its discretion that because of the appears to be a small drafting error—we find that, special geographic nature of Cumbria, there should be “rule 5(1)(d) does not apply in relation to a report under section 3(1) six seats. That is what the Government will destroy. of the 1986 Act that a Boundary Commission is required, by The Boundary Commission will not have the ability to subsection (2) of section 3 of that Act as substituted by section 10(3) show such discretion. We are all in favour of equal-size above, to submit before 1 October 2013”. constituencies and the principle of equality, but you In other words, inconvenience attendant on boundary have to have around the edges flexibility to cope with changes may be considered by the Boundary Commission special situations. Therefore, I urge the Government to in future reviews but not in the review that the Government think again. intend to rush through before the next general election. However, even if that anomaly was removed, there Lord Bach: My Lords, Amendment 75A, to which I would still be a problem about Boundary Commissions shall speak shortly, is in my name and that of my taking into account not just inconvenience but any of noble and learned friend Lord Falconer. The Committee the factors in rule 5. This is simply—I am sorry if I am has just heard a superb speech from my noble friend repeating a point that has been made before, but it is Lord Liddle, which both parties in government should fundamental to the understanding of this Bill—because take note of. He put his finger on the problem with sub-paragraph (3) of rule 5 states that the rule is, this part of the Bill more clearly than has been done before. The debate has highlighted once more what we “subject to rules 2 and 4”. think is the Government’s undoubted folly in seeking Those are the rules relating to the electoral quota and, to subordinate every other factor in the construction in the case of rule 4, as we have debated today, to the of parliamentary boundaries to the overriding goal of area of constituencies. In other words, the Boundary creating seats that fall within the bounds of a very Commission may take account of a variety of factors narrow electoral quota threshold. but only within the bounds of the overriding requirement We do not oppose moves to create more equally to make constituencies adhere to within the 5 per cent sized constituencies; indeed, we support them. That is threshold of an electoral quota and consistent only already the letter and spirit of the present law and with the special rule on the maximum territorial extent what the Boundary Commissions strive to deliver. We of a constituency. recognise, too, that the current law could be improved The major problem here, to which the government in that regard. We have tried to help the Government side appears deaf, is that the degree of tolerance from to deliver such an improvement but, alas, they have the electoral quota is just too narrow. Rule 5 might chosen to reject every amendment that we have advanced. state that Boundary Commissions may take into account As a consequence of this failure to engage in the geographical factors, local ties, issues of accessibility normal and proper process of revision in this House, and so on, but the Government know that the very which is the role that this House is traditionally supposed tight threshold regarding the electoral quota means to perform, serious flaws will be left uncorrected in that in practice—this is the point that the noble Lord, this legislation. I appreciate that the Government have Lord Liddle, was making—they have very limited taken away one or two amendments to look at and we room for manoeuvre. We know that because the heads welcome that very much, but there has not been the of the Boundary Commissions have said that the normal give that Governments accord to Bills of this strictness of the electoral parity target will mean that kind. local authority boundaries will have to be criss-crossed, The focus of this debate is the proposed new rule 5, county boundaries overlapped and wards divided. We headed “Factors”, in Clause 11. We believe that this is know that islands will have to be split, historic borders a prime example of the Bill’s fundamental defects. As transgressed and natural boundaries such as rivers, the Committee knows, rule 5 lists a number of factors valleys and the sea just plain ignored. The Boundary that the Boundary Commissions are permitted to take Commission secretaries conclude that the application into account when drawing up constituencies. These of the electoral parity target is likely to result in many include having regard to special geography, issues of communities feeling that they are being divided between accessibility, local government areas, local community constituencies. ties, the inconvenience attendant on changes to Ironically, the Bill exposes the problems caused by constituency boundaries and the encouragement to the 5 per cent threshold in the special exemptions that work within the framework of the existing European it gives to Northern Ireland and parts of the Scottish 827 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 828

Highlands and Islands. That begs the question why bureaucrat somewhere had thought, “We need to get Northern Ireland and the Scottish Highlands and some numbers right here”, and took no account whatever Islands are the only places in the United Kingdom of the cohesion of the town, the history and the nature deemed worthy of rescue from the iron law of the of the communities built up within that area. electoral quota. Why are other islands or areas of If the Government accepted Amendment 73 on peculiar geography not being afforded special protection? rule 5(1)(c), we could ensure that any local ties broken When we come to Amendment 79A, we will debate up by changes in constituencies should be taken into that more fully. For now, we can rest on the knowledge account by the Boundary Commission. That is a lot that many parts of the UK have been, without any more sensible than the rather vague construction contained adequate explanation, denied that special treatment. in the Bill. We are trying to help the Government to tidy up the Bill and to avoid some of the negative outcomes that 1am are the inevitable consequence of the severe electoral quota requirement, both by suggesting a number of My noble friend Lord Foulkes introduced two very areas that should be guaranteed an allocation of whole interesting amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, seats and by proposing a greater tolerance in the made a powerful case for his amendment on wards; electoral quota threshold. the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, in an earlier debate, pointed out the importance of We propose that, although a 5 per cent disparity wards and I intervened in that debate too. The other from the electoral quota should be the general aim of amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Foulkes the Boundary Commissions when drawing up relates to what he calls the “wealth” of the constituency, constituencies, an outer limit of 10 per cent ought to but I am not 100 per cent certain that that is the right be allowed where overriding factors such as those that expression. It should really be the “socioeconomic we have discussed on all sides of the Committee make-up”of a constituency, because there is a difference warrant it. The amendment would not make any difference in dealing with areas of social deprivation compared to the Government’s aim of adjusting a perceived with dealing with areas where there is wealth, education electoral bias; it would just deliver a more sensible and people with the self-confidence to take on issues. process. Alas, up to now, the Government in this One of the big problems that people encounter at any House refuse even properly to debate this matter and level of election when they are dealing with areas of do not give us a response as to why they are taking this social deprivation—particularly where a number of us attitude. come from, in the west of Scotland—is high levels of mortality.In some areas—like the area that was previously Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke: For the sake of the represented by the noble Lord, Lord Martin of noble Lord, Lord Rennard, I say that I shall speak to Springburn—life expectancy of the average male is 44. Amendments 73, 74A, 74B, and that my remarks will That is quite a shocking statistic and it has an impact be about rule 5(1)(c). The noble Lord, and the noble on the kind of work that has to be done by councillors, Viscount, Lord Eccles, claim that this is a filibuster. Members of the Scottish Parliament and by Members He needs to get out more. I remember the Scotland of the other place in this Parliament. It does make and Wales Bill of 1978. As a young reporter, I remember sense to take factors like that into account. What we covering Mr Tam Dalyell during that debate. I want to really need to look at—and I believe the amendment say that he spoke for days, but that may be exaggerating. of my noble friend Lord Foulkes is really a probing On one occasion, he spoke for about six hours. To me, amendment—is whether there is a better way of that is a filibuster. In all my interventions, I have kept encapsulating that into this piece of legislation my remarks very brief—to some extent because the air I notice that the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has left conditioning is going to my throat; perhaps I will get a his place, so I assume that it will be the noble and cough sweet whenever I get an opportunity to go out learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who will be answering of the Chamber. this part of the debate. Could I make an appeal to I compliment my noble friend Lord Kennedy on him? At the end of the previous debate, the response introducing Amendment 73, because it gets to the we got from the noble Lord, Lord McNally, was not heart of where the Bill has gone wrong and reintroduces acceptable. I accept that he is tired: he seems to have some common sense. The Bill has been cobbled together been a one-man Government today. He answered three from two different directions and been rapidly put Questions at Question Time, and he has been going through the Clerks with, I repeat, no consultation, no for some hours, so I have a great deal of sympathy for pre-legislative scrutiny, and no discussion through the him. But because this Bill is so badly drafted, what the usual channels. As a consequence, we have a Bill which Minister says at the Dispatch Box is of vital importance. is a dog’s breakfast. It allows the interpretation of the Bill to be taken to One area that most concerns me is the framework another level. within which the Boundary Commission will operate. I am sorry the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is not All of us who have attended Boundary Commission here, because there are many Scots in this House, and I hearings know that sometimes, when the first stab is see the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, on the other side. made at the shape of the boundary, extremely bizarre Although for this House it is still Monday, for the rest results come out. The late John Smith, on 10 May of the world it has now slipped into Tuesday and, of 1994, two days before he died, addressed the Boundary course, today is Burns Day. With noble and learned Commission about the new constituency of Airdrie Lord, Lord Wallace, and the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and Shotts, which would have resulted in the town of in their places, perhaps they could say to the noble Airdrie being cut right down the main street because a Lord, Lord McNally: 829 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 830

[BARONESS LIDDELL OF COATDYKE] our democracy and then leaves the detail of deliberation “Tam, Tam, ye’ll get yer fairin, and boundary setting, and consequentially the eventual In hell they’ll roast ye like a herrin”. number of Members of Parliament, to detached, If he would please give us the kind of response to this independent persons who must rely not only on their Bill that I think we are entitled to, we will intercede to own judgment but on the rational arguments and local make sure he is not roasted like a herrin. considerations submitted to them from the localities for which they are setting the parliamentary boundaries Lord Kinnock: In deference to noble Lords who and by that means substantially determining the quality have asked for specific references to the amendments of representation and government that is enjoyed by that we are supporting, I am supporting Amendments 73 the people of this country. and 74. That is because the debate on these amendments seems to have been a focus of the real difference Lord Campbell-Savours: Is not the distinction between between those who uphold the Government’s position us and many of these other countries that we have a implacably, and more reasonable counsel who really first past the post system? It is critical in this discussion do understand what the implications of this part of because you can get away with a cap system where you the Bill are so far as democratic representation in the have proportional representation and far larger seats House of Commons really amounts to. that are more able to gather in fringe candidates. That is a very important distinction. By way of preamble, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Rennard, and to an extent to the noble Lord, Lord Lord Kinnock: It is not an area into which I want to Tyler, that yes, of course it is true that, in countries stumble because I do not want to have a debate this with written constitutions, the back-up of constitutional evening about the benefits or disbenefits of proportional courts, and all the systems of appeal and representation representation, save to say that my one reservation attached to that, Parliaments do fix the number of about having a much more proportionate system of seats in their democratic, legislative assemblies. But we representation in this country, which I favour in principle, do not have a written constitution; there is no prospect is the implied departure from single Member of one emanating from this Bill or any other Bill that I constituencies. I believe that it is not beyond the wit of can see in the coalition agreement, and therefore I am this House, the other House or the political community sure they will accept this pragmatic point. We are not in general to discover ways of ensuring that there are discussing these proposals in the context of a written single Member constituencies where the Members are constitution or anything resembling one, and if the elected by a much more proportionate system, but the legislation proves to be wrong in application, there is reality remains the one spelt out by my noble friend: no process of appeal that can be used by the citizens of there are accompanying systems where the number of this country, noble or not ennobled, to try to rectify parliamentary seats is fixed by the Parliament buttressing the problems that might result. considerations of vital importance, and even that does My second point is attached to that. It is true that not safeguard those systems against distortion or abuse parliamentary bodies or congressional bodies under in the way that the Boundary Commission system the terms of written constitutions set the number of intact has done in this country. seats to be in their houses of representatives, and we My final point specifically refers to the paragraph are all familiar with the case of the United States entitled “Factors” on page 10. My point is straightforward. Congress and the fact that there are very small states Whether the legislation eventually provides that Boundary with exactly the same number of senators as very Commissions may, should or must “take into account” large, heavily populated states. There are complaints the considerations set out “as they think fit”, as my about that, but everybody is familiar with it, and it noble friend Lord Liddle said earlier, future Boundary would take a constitutional volcano to dislodge that Commissions will not be able to exercise a judgment hallowed reality. “as they think fit” according to a group of sensible The same thing applies to the overall numbers of criteria laid down in this Bill. the lower House of Congress, the House of Why not? It is because of the eunuch clauses in this Representatives, but the term “gerrymandering” was Bill. Eunuch rule 2 is the 5 per cent rule. Eunuch rule 4 effectively given meaning by the way in which, over is the 13,000 square kilometres rule. Most of all, under decades, that House has been used to sort and resort, eunuch rule 1 there will be 600 Members of the House mix and mangle, constituency boundaries for of Commons. There is no possibility that the Boundary representatives who are elected to the lower House of Commission should be given not a target but a cap, a Congress. Some cases, in some states, in some fixed figure, regardless of all the surrounding realities, congressional constituencies, are a mockery of democracy the requirements of constituents, the workload of widely acknowledged in the United States. So even Members of Parliament or any of the other considerations there, where there is a written constitution and Congress entered into this debate in this House or in the House sets the number of seats, there is an openness to abuse of Commons. There is no possibility that the Boundary that my democratic friends—with a small “d”democratic Commission will in any realistic sense be able to act because they come from both parties—deeply regret “as they think fit” according to these listed factors. It and would like to see changed. will be circumscribed and supervised utterly by the This is one of the reasons why they have admired figure of 600. Just in case that is not enough, it will not our pragmatic, deliberative system of the Boundary be able to make an adjustment of more than 5 per cent Commission with the built-in appeals process which either way in the numbers. And just in case that is not dislodges control of the number of seats from political enough, there are the two figures of 12,000 square hands, accepts the idea of a target number of seats in kilometres and 13,000 square kilometres, which would 831 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Parliamentary Voting System 832 make a constituency that is the size of many countries which it can take into account to the extent that it in the world, and would forbid consideration to be thinks fit, it is nevertheless subject to rule 5(3), which given from a very remote—indeed, the most rural— says that the discretion, constituency in England and Wales, such as Brecon “has effect subject to rules 2 and 4”, and Radnorshire. That would be regardless of with rule 4 being the area, which has already been consideration for the West Country, beloved of the debated today, and rule 2 being the electoral quota noble Lord, Lord Tyler, the moors of northern England and a 5 per cent variation either way. or any of the realities that relate to the Lake District. Decisions cannot be made on the pragmatic basis of I appreciate that I repeat myself from previous the influence of size, the remoteness and scarcity of discussions when I say that these rules are designed to the population, the workload of Members of Parliament ensure that we rein close to the electoral quota whereas, or any other objective consideration to a margin of, let while the quota is the focus of what the Boundary us say, 10 or 12 seats or, for the sake of argument, Commission is currently expected to do, circumstance 13 seats. That would give us the England, Wales and and the factors of flexibility that noble Lords seek in Scotland figure of the 1986 legislation. this case have taken boundaries reviews ever further away from it. It is worth repeating that the British Why legislate for cosmetic purposes when on the Academy Policy Centre, in commenting on the Bill, previous page of the Bill the discretion being awarded states that, to the Boundary Commission is torn to shreds and thrown to the wind by the limitations imposed by the “the rules set out in the Bill are a very substantial improvement on preordained figure of 600? I know that there are noble those currently implemented by the Boundary Commission”. Lords opposite who are true servants of democracy We believe that the rules set out in the Bill strike the and who have dedicated their lives to trying to improve right balance. Some noble Lords have argued that we the way in which the citizens of this country and other should remove the English Boundary Commission’s countries are represented and governed. I beg of them, ability to take European regions into account. Others when we give further consideration to these issues say that we should compel it to do so. The Bill says related to “Factors” and the real powers of discretion, that the commission should have the discretion if the the real powers of objective judgment and the real regions help them to manage the review, which is the powers to act as it thinks fit that are awarded to the right balance. Boundary Commission, to record their reservations The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, moved and insist that enough discretion is given to the Boundary an amendment that would have added wealth as a Commission to permit it to do its job effectively in factor. The Government cannot agree on principle democratic terms and with the integrity which it has that people should be banded together in constituencies so richly earned during the past 60-odd years. If it is on the basis of similar income. I am not quite sure not given enough discretion to alter the total number how such a thing would be measured by the commissions of seats in the House of Commons from 600 to a few even it was desirable. I can confirm that wealth was more, it is being made the object of ridicule, which is not a factor in previous boundary legislation. Our why I describe the rules that will effectively deprive it view is that the factors in the Bill are broadly those of the essential power of discretion as the eunuch that are in existing legislation and that have worked rules. well in previous reviews. Again, I believe that this is the right balance. 1.15 am As I have indicated, some amendments compel the commissions to have regard for the rules, and some Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I start by remove the primacy of the parity requirement. Our apologising on behalf of my noble friend Lord McNally, position is that the rules give due discretion to the who, as some of your Lordships noticed, left some commissions, but I reassure noble Lords that while the moments ago feeling somewhat unwell. I know that legislation says, “may take into account”, it is not that is not something that he would do lightly. I have open to a commission simply to disregard the factors the slight difficulty of having not having been in the on a whim, as has perhaps been suggested in some Chamber for the whole debate, and I intend no discourtesy contributions. So further tightening up of the wording to the Committee in that. I shall do my best, although is unnecessary and could prove unhelpful. some of the arguments are perhaps familiar from I have already said, as we have indicated in debates previous times. on previous amendments, that the Government will The amendments adjust the factors that the four consider how we can add wards to the list of local national Boundary Commissions are to consider in government boundaries that the commissions are asked drawing up boundaries. In some cases, they give the to consider at present. As for parity, the rules give commissions additional tasks or they take away their flexibility within a 10 per cent variation from the discretion. In most contributions, the size of the House smallest to the largest constituency. Again, I believe of Commons was raised. We debated that at considerable that that strikes the right balance, giving us flexibility length last week and I do not propose to rehearse the to recognise properly local factors while ensuring that arguments again. votes are fairer and have more equal weight—a principle As the noble Lord, Lord Bach, indicated when he to which even Members on the Front Bench opposite spoke concisely to his amendment and those in this have said that they agree. On that basis, I apologise for group, the criticism that would appear to come from not being able to answer as fully as my noble friend the other side of the Committee is that although the Lord McNally would no doubt have wished to, but I Boundary Commission is given discretionary factors ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment. 833 Parliamentary Voting System[LORDS] Parliamentary Voting System 834

Lord Kennedy of Southwark: First, I wish the noble Lord Tyler: My Lords, I recollect that some 10 hours Lord, Lord McNally, well. He has had a very tough ago the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, my noble day—we all have—and I hope he just needs sleep and friend Lord Strathclyde and the noble and learned a meal and nothing more than that. Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, encouraged us to I thank all noble Lords for their contributions in be brief and to the point, and I shall be extremely brief this important debate. My noble friend Lord Davies of and to the point on this very simple amendment. I Stamford agreed with me that the point of “may” or shall resist all temptation to take a leisurely lane in my “should” was to give very clear instructions to the constituency—as was the case last week, so often Boundary Commission. My noble friend Lord Foulkes during the middle of the night. Instead, I shall simply of Cumnock made very many important points—on move a very straightforward amendment that would wards, on his time in local government and on electoral be a modest improvement to the Bill. systems. His points about the wealth of a constituency Under rule 5, there is no reference to existing were very interesting. We may come back to that on constituencies. That, I believe, is a pity, and this simple Report and expand those points further. reference in Amendment 74BA would simply add an The noble Lord, Lord Rennard, made some points appropriate respect for existing constituency boundaries that I agreed with, although I did not agree with him to the list of criteria that the four Boundary Commissions on the points that he made about scrutiny. We have should take into account in making recommendations. had no Green Paper, no White Paper and no draft Bill, It is very simple and useful. It would indeed take up which is part of the point of the problem we have the point made by the four Boundary Commissions: today.My noble friend Lord Soley made some important that they want to have, to such an extent as they think points—that parliaments of other countries, not fit, responsibility for examining these sorts of criteria. Governments, decide the number of seats. My noble I very much hope that my noble friend the Minister friend Lord Campbell-Savours, made the crucial point will feel able to accept this modest improvement to the that introducing a cap on the number of seats undermines Bill. I believe that all parties in both Houses, and, the provisions that the Boundary Commission takes more importantly, the public, will welcome the recognition account of elsewhere. of the need to avoid unnecessary disruption to existing My noble friend Lord Liddle reminded the House constituencies. I therefore beg to move. that the function of the Boundary Commission is curtailed because of the cap and the 5 per cent tolerance Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, the noble figure. His point about the Speaker’s Conference was Lord, Lord Tyler, may not have expected me to rise to well made. My noble friend Lord Bach hit the nail on my feet to support his amendment, but I do so willingly. the head when he said that the cap was, above everything I shall also do so briefly. The effect of his amendment, else, the problem. He also pointed out that the failure as I see it, would be to create a bias in favour of not to engage with the Opposition was a real problem and changing existing constituency boundaries. It would that the timescale of the review is a problem in itself. in fact be, for the first time in our system, recognition My noble friend Lady Liddell of Coatdyke made of the costs of change. There are costs of all kinds: some excellent points. She explained that she witnessed costs in disruption, costs to the political parties and to some of the problems that we have been discussing local authorities and, above all, the unquantifiable but both as a politician and a journalist. My noble friend very real cost that we have discussed throughout our Lord Kinnock, in supporting my amendment, made proceedings of individuals feeling less attached to the some very pointed and incisive comments about a constituency that they thought they were a part of. written constitution and the very difficult situation As I understand it, the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has that we find ourselves in today. He made a very taken into account all these considerations and said, powerful case. “Surely, when in doubt, don’t make a change”—or In conclusion, I was going to say to the noble Lord, even if there is a small doubt, do not make a change. Lord McNally, who is not here now, that he is not He has not attempted to quantify the instructions that someone I have had the pleasure to talk to yet. We we would be giving to the Boundary Commission if have said hello to each other in the corridor and stuff, we accepted this amendment. He has left it to the and he is always very friendly to me and says hello. It judgment of the Boundary Commission, which is must be a very frustrating time for him, but he really right. However, he has alerted it to what the view of does need to take a leaf out of the book of the noble Parliament would be if his amendment were adopted—the and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. I do view that it is important, whenever possible, not to not want to get my head bitten off, but we need to look change existing loyalties and perceptions of local at these things very carefully. constituencies and much better to preserve the status quo. It is a very sensible amendment. The noble Lord I hope that the discussions that we have this week is to be applauded for having conceived it and brought will bear fruit. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the it forward. I hope that it meets with the approval of amendment. the whole House.

Amendments 74 to 74B not moved. Lord Lipsey: My Lords, this is not only a sensible amendment but a very important one. Because the Amendment 74BA noble Lord moved it very briefly—he was right to do that, given that he knows that the House is sitting very Moved by Lord Tyler late tonight and is keen to make further progress—its 74BA: Clause 11, page 10, line 12, at end insert— full significance could not be brought home to us. It is “( ) boundaries of existing constituencies” important for what it does, because it is obviously 835 Parliamentary Voting System[24 JANUARY 2011] Transport for London Bill [HL] 836 right that this should be one of the factors that the forward as doing that, but I very much hope that they Boundary Commission takes into account. It is more will feel able to express honestly their view as to important for what it symbolises—the fact that there whether the threshold should be 5 per cent or 10 per is, on all sides of the House, recognition that we cent. If they did that, they would, I think, unlock one should be very chary about going into this situation of of the principal problems in the Bill. a permanent revolution in constituency changes. I very much hope that the noble and learned Lord, By itself, the amendment would contribute only Lord Wallace of Tankerness, whom I congratulate on modestly to avoiding that malign outcome, because it dealing with the last amendment—he was rather given has to be combined with what is at the moment the it beyond the last moment—will find it in his heart to 5 per cent rule in the Bill, which, as we have seen so support what the noble Lords, Lord Tyler and Lord often, causes knock-on effects. One constituency grows Rennard, have proposed. However, I also hope that he slightly, which changes the next one and the next until, will address the issue that the amendment goes only so in the end, it is very difficult to preserve boundaries. It far and that it is only if we add more discretion—5 per also has to be combined with the five-yearly review— cent to 10 per cent—that we make it meaningful. It is another unwise feature of the permanent revolution. important to take into account what has been said in Nevertheless, a chink of light has seeped under the these debates quite widely across the House—that it is door on to the true nature of this Bill and the true not a good idea to have a constantly changing constituency changes that need to be made to it. Given that it comes with a constantly uncertain Member of Parliament. from the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, I cannot believe that the Government will not wish to recognise this and Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, this support the amendment that he has laid before us amendment proposed by my noble friend—in a way tonight. that, I am sure, if I may take the words of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, he genuinely thinks 1.30 am will improve the Bill—would add existing constituency boundaries to the list of factors in rule 5 that the Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I agree with Boundary Commissions may take into account when the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, and very drawing up their recommendations for new constituency much with my noble friend Lord Lipsey. I agree with boundaries. I think that it is a perfectly reasonable the important amendment moved by the noble Lord, proposal and we certainly agree with noble Lords that Lord Tyler, which is in his name and that of the noble this would aid the Boundary Commissions in drawing Lord, Lord Rennard. They obviously understand history. up their recommendations, not only in the first boundary They know what happened in the 1950s when, as the review but obviously in the subsequent ones as well. second boundary review came around after the Second As has been said, it is the case that, particularly in the World War, MPs rebelled at the thought that there first review, the Boundary Commissions expect that were going to be so many changes in constituencies. there will be a considerable change owing to the reduction That was completely reflected in debates that we had in the number of seats from 650 to 600. Nevertheless, I earlier in this Chamber, in which ex-MPs and non-ex-MPs believe that this amendment will allow for the merits pointed out that, if you break the link between a of existing boundaries to be taken into account where Member of Parliament and his constituency, you appropriate, thereby ensuring that the boundary undermine democracy and you create uncertain commissioners do not have to start with a blank page. relationships. The then Conservative Government Therefore, the Government are content to accept this produced a Bill that, in effect, made the disruption amendment. much less. From this Front Bench, we support the principle underlying what the noble Lords, Lord Tyler Amendment 74BA agreed. and Lord Rennard, are seeking to achieve, which is to reduce the disruption. Amendment 74C not moved. However, the speech that my noble friend Lord Kinnock made has to be borne in mind, because we Amendment 74D had been withdrawn from the Marshalled can reduce the disruption only by so much if we have List. what he described as the “eunuch” clauses. I anticipate that there will be those on the Benches on which the House resumed. noble Lords, Lord Tyler and Lord Rennard, sit who think that the way to deal with the points made so persuasively by my noble friend Lord Kinnock would City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] be by moving the 5 per cent up to 10 per cent; they First Reading think that that would make a substantial contribution to dealing with the point about the ongoing relationship The Bill was presented and read a first time. with a Member of Parliament. So, yes, I support the amendment proposed by the Transport for London Bill [HL] two noble Lords, but I also hope that they will engage First Reading in this debate properly. By that I mean that I hope that they will put forward arguments and amendments that The Bill was presented and read a first time. they think will genuinely improve the Bill. I read the amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has put House adjourned at 1.35 am.

GC 115 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 116

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, having had Grand Committee recent experience of the phenomenon to which the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has drawn attention, I can Monday, 24 January 2011. say that in Government we of course took the recommendations of the Committee very seriously. I am glad to see these amendments. I appreciate that the Energy Bill [HL] Minister has something of a choice, but in any case at Committee (3rd Day) Committee stage he is not going to accept these amendments exactly as they are written. However, the 3.30 pm Opposition give their full support to the concept behind the amendments. Therefore, I hope that the Minister The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness responds positively and that the appropriate amendment Harris of Richmond): My Lords, if there is a Division is tabled. in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, resume after 10 minutes. Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): My Lords, I welcome back the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and hope that she is well. I Clause 33: Regulations and orders hope that all noble Lords have had an agreeable weekend. We will now carry on with the Energy Bill. Amendment 20A The amendments in this group would affect a number of orders, including those that define qualifying energy Moved by Baroness Noakes improvements and eligible properties. We need to strike 20A: Clause 33, page 21, line 16, at end insert— the right balance between normal administrative functions “(za) orders and regulations under section 1 or 2,” and parliamentary scrutiny of the criteria by which administrators exercise their functions. I am very grateful to my noble friends Lady Noakes and Lord Jenkin of Baroness Noakes: My Lords, briefly, Amendments 20A Roding for tabling their amendments. However, we and 20C, which stand in my name in this group, come need to ensure that the amendments have the intended directly from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory effect in law. Therefore, we will warmly and favourably Reform Committee’s eighth report of Session 2010-11. consider the amendments and all the recommendations The amendments concern the level of parliamentary of the Delegated Powers Committee. approval that should be given to orders and regulations made under Clauses 1 and 2. The eighth report makes I hope that honourable Members have found my it clear that the powers in Clauses 1 and 2 are significant. explanation reassuring and will not press their For example, the Government have powers to specify amendments. in detail what a Green Deal plan is, what improvements Baroness Noakes: With the proviso that I am a fall to be dealt with and what descriptions of property noble, rather than an “honourable”, Member, I am are covered or not covered. Clause 2 confers powers to grateful to the Minister for warmly considering my extend by order the meaning of energy efficiency amendments. I hope that that warmth will extend to measures, and therefore the scope of the Green Deal action on Report and I assure him that, if he does not scheme, as well as other matters. take action, we will return to the matter. I beg leave to The key point for the Delegated Powers and Regulatory withdraw the amendment. Reform Committee is that the affirmative procedure is, in its view, the appropriate level of scrutiny, given Amendment 20A withdrawn. the ability to extend key terms by subordinate legislation. In paragraph 5 of its report, that Committee recommends, Amendments 20B to 20D not moved. “that orders and regulations under clauses 1 and 2 should be subject to the affirmative procedures”. Amendment 20DZA That is what my two amendments provide. I beg leave Moved by Baroness Smith of Basildon to move. 20DZA: Clause 33, page 21, line 25, at end insert— “( ) Before making regulations or an order under this Chapter, The Deputy Chairman of Committees: If Amendment the Secretary of State must report to Parliament with proposals 20A is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 20B by on green deal apprenticeships.” reason of pre-emption. The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I advise Members that there is a mistake in the amendment as Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I also put down it appears in the supplementary Marshalled List. It amendments—Amendments 20B and 20D—which are should state, “Clause 33, page 21, line 35, at end differently worded but would have exactly the same insert—”. effect. Having listened to my noble friend Lady Noakes, I have nothing to add, except to support her fully. I Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, we have believe that it is normal practice for the Government, discussed before the issue of skills and whether there having considered the proposals of the Delegated will be enough people with the skills required to Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, to seek to undertake the Green Deal. Amendment 20DZA would accept them. require the Government to report to Parliament before GC 117 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 118

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] Amendment 20DZA is a probing amendment. I any orders or regulations were made to state where we will be interested in the response from the Minister, are on the issue of skills and, in particular, on introducing but we may want to return to the issue, as we feel that Green Deal apprenticeships. When we discussed this it is crucial to the success of the Green Deal. issue, there was wide agreement on the need to ensure that the workforce has the skills available. At the Baroness Northover: My Lords, the Green Deal will weekend, the Minister for Skills made an interesting require a trained workforce to install measures in a statement that recognised the need to appreciate and safe, competent and professional manner. This will be value skills in manufacturing and engineering. Clearly, assured by a new Green Deal quality mark and if we are to reach the desired level of Green Deal accreditation framework. The noble Baroness is right take-up, we will need significantly to upgrade skills in that this is going to be an area for jobs growth, and the engineering as well as in science and technology. Aldersgate Group is right to highlight that. It is estimated that, as a result of the Green Deal, 100,000 jobs will be I recommend to the Minister the Aldersgate Group’s created by 2015 and 270,000 by 2025. Business does report, Mind the Gap: Skills for the transition to a low indeed need certainty, and this Bill is part of providing carbon economy, which was published in November that certainty and the way forward. 2009. The group is a high-level coalition of businesses, As the noble Baroness will know, this Government environmental groups, individuals who have been involved have previously pledged to increase the number of in employment and trade unions, all of whom are keen apprenticeships available across all sectors. It is a to ensure that we capitalise on the number of jobs that promising sign that the insulation industry has already can be made available through environmental work. launched a pilot apprenticeship scheme, which it hopes The group believes that high environmental standards to expand over the next year in anticipation of the could ensure that we are an international leader in the Green Deal. We welcome this development and we field. The report—the outcome of a project chaired by will work with the industry to promote the use of former TUC president John Edmonds—is, I found, apprentices where possible. We will be speaking further very helpful. Its key point is that, whatever the speed with ministerial counterparts in the Department for of our transition to a low-carbon economy, we need to Business, Innovation and Skills about this matter and fix the skills shortage in those areas. We are not we will continue to liaise with them over this. talking about a completely new skills set so we do not However, we feel that Amendment 20DZA as drafted need to build up new skills from scratch, but we may interfere with the degree of flexibility necessary certainly need training courses and further work to to tailor the Green Deal training to the needs of the enhance the current skills set. sector and may risk forcing training opportunities The biggest problem identified in the Aldersgate down an inappropriate route. We understand the purposes Group report is that, because the debate on the workforce behind the amendment. On that basis, I hope that skills has moved on so quickly, people at various levels noble Lords will be happy that the amendment be in engineering and manufacturing in the UK—including withdrawn. at the highest management levels—have not really understood the implications of the degree of change Baroness Smith of Basildon: I beg leave to withdraw that needs to be made. If we are to meet the significant the amendment. challenges that we want the Green Deal to overcome, Amendment 20DZA withdrawn. we must ensure that the skills are available. Companies Clause 33 agreed. will need to understand the nature of the change and explain the required skills to the workforce. After Clause 33 A number of recommendations in the Aldersgate Group report and in other reports—including some Amendment 20DA not moved. from the Government—deal with very similar issues. Clause 34 agreed. What is clear from all the reports that I have looked at is that business needs certainty from Government if it is to invest in skills and equipment. The Government Clause 35: Meaning of “domestic PR property” and have the responsibility to work alongside industry and “non-domestic PR property”: England and Wales those involved in training to ensure that we have the right kind of training programmes at the right time, Amendment 20E with the right level of skills and the right kind of skills. Moved by Baroness Maddock These are significant issues that the Government 20E: Clause 35, page 22, line 8, leave out “let” need to address. All that we ask today is that the 3.45 pm Government take this away, look at the level of change that is required and ensure that there are Green Deal Baroness Maddock: I rise to move Amendment 20E, apprenticeships in place so that we have the take-up, as set out in the Marshalled List, and I will speak to which will initially come through owner-occupiers—we Amendments 20F, 20G, 20H, 20J and 20K. will come later to the issue of the delays that are As we are starting on the chapter of the Bill that currently envisaged in the private rented sector. We refers to the private rented sector, let me make a few need to ensure that we have the necessary number of general comments before speaking to the amendments. people who are fully trained to undertake the jobs I welcome the fact that, for the first time, the Government required. are making a serious attempt to deal with energy GC 119 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 120 efficiency in the private sector. The issue has dogged for such homes to band D by 2020 would remove a the housing world for a number of years, so I really little over 300,000 households from fuel poverty, which welcome the Government’s proposals. represents 50 per cent of those currently living in fuel In making a few general points about the situation poverty in the private rented sector. in the private sector, I also want to mention fuel The cost of doing that would not be as high as poverty. In many cases, not only is private rented some people might think. A study has found that the accommodation the worst maintained part of our cost of meeting the minimum standard would be low housing stock, but it contains a large number of and would be well within the levels of finance associated vulnerable households and those living in fuel poverty. with the Green Deal. In many cases, the cost would be The sector accounts for 14.2 per cent of the housing low enough to be easily financed directly by the landlord, stock—a little over 3 million homes in England—and with no impact on rents. Some 40 per cent of F-rated has a disproportionately high number of homes with and G-rated properties could be improved to EPC the worst energy performance ratings compared with band E for less than £1,500, at an average cost of £270 other sectors. According to the Government’s fuel per property. Of those properties in bands E, F and G, poverty advisory group, 19 per cent of private tenants two thirds could be improved all the way up to band D live in fuel poverty. According to the Chief Medical for less than £3,000 per property. That is consistent Officer, the annual cost to the National Health Service with some work done by the Energy Saving Trust, of winter-related diseases due to living in cold homes which concurred that most F and G-rated properties is something like £859 million. could be improved to band E for less than £3,000. The Historically, landlords have had little incentive to Energy Saving Trust also said that 60 per cent of F improve their properties because the tenants rather and G-rated private rented properties could be brought than the landlords pay the fuel bills. A substantial up to band E for less than £5,000. coalition of bodies outside this House has now called I turn to my amendments to Clause 35. As drafted, on the Government to introduce a legal minimum Clause 35 limits the categories of domestic short-term standard of energy efficiency for rented homes and to lettings that will come within the provisions of Chapter 2 make it an offence to let a property that does not meet to those categories of tenants that are expressly included the standard until it has been improved. I put on within the provisions of the Rent Act 1977 and to record that those organisations include: Age UK, assured short-hold tenancies under the Housing Act Consumer Focus, Citizens Advice, Crisis, the National 1988. Undoubtedly, that captures the bulk of short-term Childbirth Trust and Macmillan Cancer Support as lettings, but it certainly does not capture all forms of well as councils up and down the country. dwelling that are owner-occupied. Therefore, the purpose There has already been much discussion about the of my amendments is to expand the tenancies and issue in another place, where an Early Day Motion has dwellings included in this clause. Amendments 20E to been signed by 147 Members of Parliament from 20J in my name would apply in particular to agricultural across the political spectrum. The Government’s fuel workers, whose tenancies have for some time been poverty advisory group strongly supports the proposal— treated slightly differently from those of other tenants noble Lords might like to look at its annual report for in landlord and tenant legislation. 2009 rather than have me read it out here. Further, the Committee on Climate Change has called for mandatory Historically, many agricultural workers have occupied energy efficiency standards to be set for the private self-contained accommodation owned by their employers, rented sector. often at very low rent. The Rent Act 1977 did not apply to tenants who were occupying buildings at no The Government’s recognition that special attention rent or very low rent. Instead, the bulk of agricultural needs to be paid to the poor condition of private workers are covered by the provisions of the Rent rented properties is very much in line with views held (Agriculture) Act 1976, which offers security of tenure outside Parliament and among civil society. The Energy to people occupying buildings at nil or low rent providing Bill contains provisions that could, if taken up, give that they work in full-time agriculture. In 1989, the the Government powers to improve rented homes. My provisions of the Housing Act 1988 replaced the provisions series of amendments aims to strengthen the Bill by of the Rent Act 1977, but again no specific provision introducing minimum standards that both landlords was made for agricultural tenants. Living in rural and tenants could both understand and plan for the Northumberland, I am very much aware of this issue, introduction of. and I hope that the Minister will look on this matter Let me give a bit of detail about the minimum favourably. standard and its influence on fuel poverty. In December, Consumer Focus published a report setting out an Amendment 20K—the last of my amendments in impact assessment of Friends of the Earth’s minimum this group—would expand the categories of domestic energy standard proposals. In terms of the measures occupiers to include those tenancies currently excluded required and their costs, two scenarios were investigated: by Schedule 1 to the Housing Act 1988 and also some one was to meet a minimum band E standard by 2015; houses in multiple occupation. The amendment would the other was the impact of raising the minimum also allow the Secretary of State to include other standard to band D by 2020. Raising the minimum definitions, should that be desirable at some point in energy performance certificate to band E for private the future. rented homes would remove 150,000 households in The complication with the tenancies that have been the private rented sector from fuel poverty—25 per left out is that the Government have used the Rent Act cent of households in private rented accommodation 1977 and the Housing Act 1988 to define a domestic are currently living in fuel poverty. Raising the EPC PR property. However, in neither of those statutes was GC 121 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 122

[BARONESS MADDOCK] for moving Amendment 20E. She comes with a great the building the central point. The Rent Act had two wealth of knowledge of this sector, which is always main purposes: to establish a fair rent structure and to much appreciated. In particular, her opening remarks seek to provide security of tenure for tenants while welcomed some of the action that we are taking in striking a balance between security and the needs of this sector. the landlord. The Housing Act 1988 similarly dealt On the issue raised by my noble friend Lady Parminter, with security of tenure. A long list of forms of occupation I should like to pick up the issue of the review at a of dwellings were excluded from the Housing Act 1988 later amendment. because it was considered inappropriate for tenants to I am glad to see that the Minister, my colleague have more security than they already had. However, Mr Gregory Barker, who will be taking this matter this means that many properties that are actually through the other place, has come to see how it is done dwellings will be left out of this Bill. I hope that that properly here in the Upper Chamber. He will learn a explains to the Minister why I think that this is important lot from being here. and that we look a little further at doing that. I beg Amendments 20E to 20K all seek to amend Clause 35 to move. by expanding the range of tenancy types and dwellings covered by the provisions in the Bill relating to the Baroness Parminter: I support my noble friend Lady domestic private rented sector. Clause 35 lays the Maddock in her amendments, which seek to extend foundations for the provisions in the private rented the reach of the Bill to those who live under short-term sector by clearly defining what we mean by “domestic residential leases. While the Bill will ensure that the private rented property” and “non-domestic private majority of those in the private rented sector will rented property” in England and Wales for the purposes benefit from the Green Deal, about 1.5 million properties of this Bill. The domestic private rented sector is with long residential leases are outside the scope of currently defined by the two most common types of this Bill. Many of those leases require the permission tenancy arrangements in the sector: assured tenancies of the landlords for home energy improvements. In and regulated tenancies. We want to capture the largest some cases, there may be an absolute prohibition on range of private rented sector properties; we do not such improvements. I am aware of a leaseholder who want to unintentionally exclude properties. I will now is looking to make a home energy improvement of consider them in turn. fitting a new gas boiler, but because that requires an external flue he is unable to get his landlord’s consent. Amendments 20G and 20J would apply to accommodation provided for agricultural workers under I accept that there are issues around long residential either an assured agricultural occupancy, as defined in leases. I am also very much aware—and I am grateful— the Housing Act 1988, or a protected occupancy, as that the department is aware of those issues, but I defined by the Rent (Agriculture) Act 1976. Those will hope that the department might use the period of the be included in the definition; they do not need to be proposed review of the private rented sector to look referred to specifically. I hope that that deals with the closely at the issue of long residential leases and at point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock. how we might extend the Green Deal to the 1.5 million people who at present have long residential leases 4pm and are currently excluded from the benefits of the I can see the arguments for the Secretary of State Green Deal. having the power to add tenancy types to the definition of “domestic private rented property”, but Lord Grantchester: I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Amendment 20K refers to “dwellings”—rather than Lady Maddock, for bringing forward her amendments. forms of tenancy—which I feel runs contrary to the I echo her opening words on the private rented sector, principle of the clause. However, I am happy to take as we on this side of the House have also received this issue away and consider it in more detail before considerable approaches from organisations that want Report. We shall also look into the subject of mining us to look diligently at that sector. We take encouragement tenancies, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord that the Government are now looking at those issues. Grantchester. If, on consideration, such a government Like the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, we think amendment were felt to be valid, it would offer a that several such properties could be adequately improved safety net. If, after further research, the Secretary of at no great cost. We have also received a lot of submissions State considers that the forms of tenancy agreement in asking that we look carefully at this issue. Amendment 20K should be covered by the regulations, We also thank the noble Baroness for bringing the those would be included at a later date. That would attention of the Committee to the issues around the also be the case if the review proposed in the Bill Housing Act. On this side, we initially thought that all revealed other relevant tenancy types that were eventualities would be covered, so we thank her for inadvertently missed. drawing our attention to that. Along with the noble With these explanations—and on the basis that Baroness, we would wish, in so far as is possible, for all before Report I will look again at Amendments 20G, housing, including rural housing, to be brought within 20J and 20K—I ask that the amendments not be the ambit of the Bill. Will the Minister confirm that pressed. other types of housing, including in the mining industry, will be covered under the provisions? Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his pretty positive reply. Of course, that is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department partly dependent on a review. As we will discuss this of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): My afternoon, some of us think that the timing of various Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Maddock, reviews and actions following from them should be GC 123 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 124 slightly different, so I may disagree with him a little I want to make only one other point, which has later. However, in the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw been made by speakers already. The biggest problems the amendment. we face here are in the homes that are extremely difficult to make more energy efficient. It has been Amendment 20E withdrawn. made clear in some of the representations that the Amendments 20F to 20K not moved. limit of £5,000, or whatever it is, would not cover those sorts of places. They are coming under the Debate on whether Clause 35 should stand part of the energy company obligation, or so I understand. One Bill. does need to look at all these various aspects if we are going to achieve our objective. Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, in reading the Like my noble friend Lady Maddock when moving Bill, and in getting the substantial number of her amendment, I congratulate the Government on representations that I suspect that we have all had having had the courage to pick up this ball and run from the relevant organisations, I have been impressed with it, because it is important that we try to deal with by the sheer complexity of the problem that we face in this hugely varied sector of housing if we are to dealing with the private rented sector. It covers an improve the lot of the tenants and at the same time enormous range of properties, of kinds of tenancy, save energy. and of people who occupy the houses. One trade association, the Federation of Master Builders, told Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I welcome me that there are around 26 million homes in Britain, the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of over half of which were built before the 1960s. Five Roding, because I think they sum up some of the million are Victorian terraced properties. The scale of challenges of the legislation and why it is so welcome the challenge is nothing short of enormous. That is that we seek to make improvements in the private what has impressed me. Yes, we have new homes rented sector and indeed other sectors—the private coming up with new standards and owner-occupied sector and the social housing sectors—through the homes, but the private rented sector offers a severe energy market. challenge to the Government and to all those working with them. It is right that we examine this in detail because the issue around the balance between the quality and Everybody with whom I have spoken has had nothing quantity of housing is a fine one to walk, and we want but total support for the whole concept of the Green to ensure that at all times the Government reach the Deal. At the same time, they recognise that it will have correct balance. In proposing amendments and discussing to maintain a careful balance between the desire to get and debating the clauses of the Bill, we want to ensure maximum energy efficiency from this huge range of that the Government can fulfil the objectives they have houses and, at the same time, maintaining the availability set themselves. We entirely agree with the Government on the market of homes to rent. Some of the when they said that they wanted to be the greenest representations that I have heard have expressed some Government ever. When the Minister referred to that anxiety that, if too many obligations and restrictions in the Chamber in our first energy debate, which seems are placed on landlords of rented homes, one result an awful long time ago, and I challenged him on it he could be that they will simply be taken off the market. said, “Like it or not”. I let him know that we do like it The consequence would be almost worse than the and that we will support the Government in these aims original problem. and wider where they seek to be as green as possible. There is no question about it: the rental market has The issue of having greener properties and more energy grown substantially in recent years, largely because of efficient properties goes beyond just the idea of being the progressive removal of the controls which hampered energy efficient. It goes into health, the economy and it for so long. When I was very young, I lived in a much wider. As we debate these clauses about the rent-controlled property. My mother was renting and private rented sector I give the Minister our assurance the landlord could not put up the rent at all. In those that every time we raise an issue we do so only to circumstances it was almost impossible for anybody to improve the Bill and work with him to achieve his rent a house because none of them came on to the stated objectives. market. If the house was empty, it was immediately sold for owner occupation. One has to hold that balance carefully. Lord Marland: My Lords, it is wonderful to hear so I hope that, when dealing with the amendments to much green co-operation bouncing backwards and the later clauses, the Committee will feel that we have forwards. We appreciate the very generous words from to give attention to this. There has to be a proper the opposition Benches, and of course from my noble balance between the desire to improve these houses friend Lord Jenkin of Roding, who has told us that we and their energy efficiency, and making severe inroads have a very significant task to perform in this Bill. He into the rental market as a whole. I am encouraged has told us that there are many challenges ahead, that, both in the Bill and in one of the amendments to which we will have to address. The noble Baroness, be moved by the Opposition, there is a recognition Lady Smith, and my noble friend Lord Jenkin both that this needs to be done rather carefully. A considerable talk about a balance that needs to be had, and they are duty rests on us to try to get that balance as fair as we quite right. If I may, I will deal with his specific point can between the two objectives—making sure that about ECOs later, when it comes up in the list of there is a proper market in homes for rent and getting amendments, but I am very grateful for the the houses improved. encouragement. GC 125 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 126

[LORD MARLAND] what level of energy efficiency will the review seek to I will speak to Clause 35, so that we are clear where ensure that landlords implement? The amendment is that is going. Clause 35 lays the foundations for the fairly limited. It is a probing amendment. I am just provisions in the private rented sector by clearly defining curious as to why the purpose of the review is not what we mean by domestic and non-domestic private there; and I do not think that we should limit what the rented property in England and Wales for the purposes review must include to the four criteria listed in the of this Bill. The domestic private rented sector is legislation. defined by the two most common types of tenancy agreements in the sector: assured and regulated tenancies. 4.15 pm We have intentionally excluded social landlords from these requirements. The sector has previously been Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I have Amendment 20L required to invest in the energy efficiency performance grouped with this. Unfortunately I did not see the of its homes. As a result, it has made some of the grouping before I got in today, and I am not sure it fits biggest energy efficiency gains in recent years. particularly well with Amendment 20KA. I support what the noble Baroness said about the review being The definition of a non-domestic private rented capable of including other issues, whether specified by property is one which is let under a tenancy and is not the Secretary of State or determined to be appropriate a dwelling. A dwelling is already defined under the by the reviewer. I suggest that if that is what she wants Energy Performance of Buildings (Certificates and she should have tabled the amendment differently—to Inspections) (England and Wales) Regulations 2007, say whether the Secretary of State should specify so it is logical to use this existing definition for the additional matters or whether the reviewer should be purpose of this chapter. I hope that that satisfies noble empowered to consider whatever other matters he Lords. wants. It seems to me a sensible flexibility to introduce into the Bill in some way. Clause 35 agreed. Amendment 20L is rather different. I support the necessity of a review prior to the implementation of Clause 36 : Review of energy efficiency in the private the private rented sector provisions of the Bill. The rented sector: England and Wales amendment is inspired by a briefing from the British Property Federation. It is differently expressed from the suggested amendment; my noble friend, Lord Jenkin, Amendment 20KA who has an amendment in this group, has followed the Moved by Baroness Smith of Basildon suggested amendment more faithfully. 20KA: Clause 36, page 23, line 4, after “must” insert “, in Clause 36(5)(b) requires this review to include a particular,” consideration of the extent to which financial assistance is available to landlords of private rented properties for the purpose of taking measures to improve their Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, it is interesting, energy efficiency. My amendment takes this further, looking at Clause 36 about the review, that it describes and asks that the review also examines the extent to how the review should be undertaken; who would which such financial assistance is known to be available. undertake it, in that the Secretary of State appoints There is a world of difference between something somebody; it mentions an arrangement to include being available and people knowing that it is. My provision for payments; it talks about how; it talks noble friend Lord Jenkin’s amendment focuses on the about what will be done; and it refers to what follows amount of marketing effort and the sums spent in on. However, it never says what the purpose of the making landlords aware of financial assistance. To review is and why the review should be undertaken. It that extent his amendment focuses on the inputs to the seems to me that the purpose of the review is to process, while mine tries to focus on the outputs: in explore how we can best implement proposals in the other words, whether there has actually been knowledge Green Deal in the private sector, and how we can of the financial assistance available. For example, if ensure that we get the best possible take-up of the the marketing in the early stages of the Green Deal Green Deal in that sector. Perhaps it is just a quirk of was not addressed to landlords in the private rented drafting that the purpose of the review is never set out sector, there may be zero knowledge of that in the in the clause. I assume that its purpose is clear: to sector. maximise the take-up of the Green Deal and to ensure that it is taken up in the right way. Alternatively, landlords might know about the availability of financial assistance, not through marketing Amendment 20KA suggests that in Clause 36(5) we efforts from Green Deal providers, for example, but are able to include other issues in the review. The through trade bodies or the media. We cannot assume reason we are putting that forward is that there are that because financial assistance is available landlords indeed other issues that the review should look at and are aware of it and ready to act on it. It is important consider, if its purpose is to maximise the take-up. that the powers in this chapter are not activated unless One example is apprenticeships. The Minister did not and until there is awareness of financial assistance seem too keen on that, but certainly on the issues of among private rented sector landlords. skills and training there has been widespread agreement in this Committee today and previously. Another issue is the role of local government and how it will undertake Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, as my noble friend its responsibilities under the Green Deal. As we have Baroness Noakes has indicated, Amendment 20MA in already heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, my name follows a recommendation from the British GC 127 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 128

Property Federation. The federation makes the important shoulders. If this were something that was hurting the point—which I may have made earlier—that the energy industry, the various organisations would be the first efficiency supply sector does not have a good record of to make sure that everyone knew about it. Therefore, I approaching private rented properties. It is much easier find this whole pressure a bit odd. I hope that your to take the low-hanging fruit provided by the owner- Lordships will not move us towards a position that occupier properties, where the owner is the one paying will underestimate or remove the important role that the energy bills. The private rented sector has hitherto the organisations should take. not been approached formally—other than perhaps in a number of cases—but that needs to happen. Therefore, Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, that is the suggestion in my amendment is—as my noble exceptionally good advice. It will be crucial that friend Lady Noakes has said—that there should be a information is available for tenants and for landlords. clear review of the efforts made to bring this whole My point in moving the amendment was that the process to the attention of both landlords and tenants. review should not be limited to the items listed in I imagine that many noble Lords will share my subsection (5) of Clause 36. experience of having people in their families who are The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, suggested that both landlords and tenants—some are landlords and my amendment is not clear on whether the Secretary some are tenants. Of course, the biggest single problem of State or the reviewer would decide the criteria. I is always to get both parties to see that an improvement refer her to Clause 36(3)(a), which makes it clear that will be to both their advantages. That will require a the matter is for the Secretary of State. All that I seek considerable effort. All that I am saying is that the is not to limit the review to the four criteria listed in review must take account of the efforts that are being subsection (5). I hope that the Minister will take on and could be made to spread the awareness both of board my point about information being available and the process and of the mutual advantage that will how crucial that will be for the process being successful. come to landlords, from the enhancement of the value of their property, and to tenants, from lower energy bills and perhaps a more comfortable house. That will Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan: My Lords, before we take some effort. The review must recognise that and leave this issue, I am not quite clear on the extent of form a view on how successful the measures have been the penetration of the membership of the British to date. Property Federation and on whether it captures all landlords. If the BPF has not so far—as I imagine— captured the recalcitrant landlords, I suggest that we Baroness Maddock: My Lords, further to my noble should not try to impose too much responsibility on friend’s comment about the record of the private the BPF. At the same time, if this legislation is to rented sector in this area, he is absolutely right that we succeed, the Government’s role should be to show have not seen its efforts in any great quantity. However, leadership by trying to inform the public of what I remind him that one or two schemes got grants could be available to them and what might be being under the Home Energy Conservation Act. If he cares denied them because of landlords who by and large— to look back, I am sure that the Energy Saving Trust historically, sadly, there are all too many of these—are has records of the one or two schemes that were quite indifferent to the needs of many of their tenants. successful. Unfortunately, nobody ever looked at the It would seem that the more insecure the tenancy, statistics to see how those schemes might be grown in the higher the rents and the less attractive the the rest of the country, but that is history. I also accommodation. Very often, individual metering and remember that one very good scheme was initiated by inadequate insulation are the hallmarks of such properties. Westminster City Council. While we have a responsibility towards those tenants who live under registered or trade association landlords, Lord Deben: My Lords, I just hope that we do not we have an important and even greater responsibility underestimate the big role that the British Property to those who live in wretched and dreadful conditions Federation and others ought to have in making sure because of the force of very complex circumstances. that information about the measures reaches both Sometimes, such tenants are not in a position to make those who rent and those who let property. I am a little the right economic judgments—which, in many respects, unhappy about the pressure from the British Property lie at the heart of the Green Deal—because, sadly, Federation. Having been involved in property and in they have too many other things to worry about. The writing about it all my life, I rather think that, despite fact that these folk may not be in these properties for the efforts that are being to suggest that somebody else long does not mean that their successors should be ought to provide the information, those who let property condemned to the same dreadful conditions as those ought to do that. In addition, if there is a problem in which the previous tenants had to stay.The Government from the private sector, the British Property Federation must pay greater attention to this issue. It is to the and others could certainly take that up. shame of previous Governments that these situations have been allowed to prevail for so long. When the Minister replies, I hope that he will accept that it is not just for the Government to tell people of the advantages available to them; the first Lord Best: My Lords, perhaps I may add a little people who ought to do that should be those who have factual information on the profile of the private rented the interests of the landlords—and, I hope, the tenants—in sector. We know from Dr Julie Rugg at the University mind. It would be a pity if we suggested that that was of York that there are some 1.2 million private landlords. not a proper role for the industry to take on its Very few of these belong to the British Property GC 129 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 130

[LORD BEST] I accepted that, but I went on to ask for the review to Federation, for which I have a great deal of time ensure that financial assistance is “known to be available”. and which is doing some very good work, including on The Minister did not cover that point in his summing this Bill. The vast majority of the 1.2 million private up—unless I missed it—and I would be grateful for his landlords do not belong to any kind of federation. comments. The Residential Landlords Association and the National Landlords Association together have, I think, less Baroness Smith of Basildon: While the Minister than 5 per cent of the ownership from the private seeks inspiration on that point, perhaps I may put to landlords sector. We will have to bypass some of those him that my comments and my amendment seek to institutions and put in place mechanisms that will probe whether there should be additional items in the reach out to this huge mass of small-time private review, but he did not address that, either. landlords. Lord Marland: Could you repeat that? Baroness Smith of Basildon: The purpose of my Lord Marland: My Lords, this group of amendments Amendment 20KA is to probe whether additional covers a wide range of issues. The noble Baroness, items should be in the review other than those in Lady Smith, rightly asked about the purpose of the paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (5). I do not think review, which is, we hope, to safeguard against regulation. that the Minister addressed that, but I apologise if I We do not believe that regulation will be the answer if have missed it. we want to encourage landlords in the private rented sector to respond to the Green Deal with open arms, Lord Marland: I will deal first with the point made to embrace it and to act as willing and proper landlords. by my noble friend Lady Noakes. There is a limit to As my noble friend Lord Deben rightly said, we should how much one can inform. Clearly, there is a greater strike a balance between the pressures brought on by emphasis on the private rented sector to inform. If we the sector and what we want to achieve, but we should find that the sector is not informing people, we will not be led by the nose. Of course, we are working bring that to attention under the review. I hope that closely with the BPF. that deals with the point. The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan, I am not sure of the direction of the question of the rightly drew our attention to the fact that there are noble Baroness, Lady Smith. Perhaps I could also deal unscrupulous landlords out there. It may be that we with that at a later point. have to take action against them in the strongest Baroness Noakes: I am sorry. Possibly my noble possible way through regulation, but it is our desire friend has said that this might be looked at, but the not to do that and to give them an opportunity—a point is not specified in Clause 36(5). I tabled Amendment breathing space—to take part. 20L to see whether that should be specified, so that the The noble Baroness, Lady Maddock—the godmother matter would be covered. The Minister sort of said of HECA—drew our attention in her usual persuasive that it would be covered, but it is not covered in way to the merits of the Home Energy Conservation Clause 36, so I am still struggling on whether the Act. We are incredibly grateful for all the work that Government think it important that landlords of public she did but, as she has nobly recognised, we have rented sector properties are aware of the financial moved on to another phase. Perhaps she will be godmother assistance. As I pointed out, there is a big difference of HECA II. between financial assistance being available and people Finally, let me respond briefly to my noble friends being aware of it, in particular if Green Deal providers Lord Jenkin and Lady Noakes, who have raised a do not target private sector landlords because of the number of issues relating to the review period. Perhaps difficulties. I may discuss the review later, given that—as my noble friend Lady Noakes mentioned—groupings 7 and 8 Lord Marland: I think that I understand the question, also deal with the review and its various timeframes. so it may be the second question that I do not understand. Although my noble friends’amendments aim to strengthen If we are talking about awareness, it is incumbent on the review, I reassure noble Lords that there is already the private rented sector to make people aware. It is a requirement in Clause 36(5)(b) for the review to also incumbent on the Government to make people assess the extent to which financial assistance is available. aware of the range of assistance available under the On the broader point, I think that we will be able to Green Deal. If there has been no—or not enough— debate the timings of reviews and the need for them positive action, the review will endeavour to make the when we consider groupings 7 and 8. With these necessary adjustments to make sure that that action is assurances, I ask noble Lords not to press their provided to communicate the information that is required. amendments. This set of opportunities should be widely known about. This is a very new initiative that, as I understand it, virtually everyone in property knows is about to 4.30 pm happen. If we feel that the information is not being passed on, obviously we should take action. Baroness Noakes: My Lords, before the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, decides what to do with her amendment, Baroness Smith of Basildon: I hate to confuse the I will say that my amendment—Amendment 20L—seeks Minister and I apologise if my earlier comment was to go beyond what is in Clause 36(5)(b), which the not clear, but all that I seek is confirmation that the Minister rightly said covers, review will be able to consider items other than those “the extent to which financial assistance is available”. listed in paragraphs (a) to (d) of subsection (5). Are GC 131 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 132 those the only items that the review will look at? Is the in asking their landlords to make the improvements review limited to those items, or can other issues be through the providers of the scheme. It is an important taken into consideration? area and one it would be useful to understand if and when the report is produced. Lord Marland: I am getting a lot of notes, but the short answer is that the review can consider other Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan: Short-term tenants issues. I hope that that answers the question. who are in poor-quality houses and move on regularly are not normally the kind of people who will have the Baroness Smith of Basildon: I am most grateful. I time, let alone the inclination, to enter into such an beg leave to withdraw the amendment. agreement. They may not actually be involved when it comes to the implementation of the scheme, because there is likely to be some time lag. The other side of Amendment 20KA withdrawn. that is that the kind of landlords who operate in these areas are often unscrupulous and indifferent. Particularly Amendment 20L not moved. in big cities, we now have substantial numbers of an almost underclass of people who live on the national minimum wage, are in one job that is lowly paid and Amendment 20M get moved on to another and, perforce of circumstance, Moved by Baroness Noakes keep moving. There does not seem to be much consciousness on the part of government that such a 20M: Clause 36, page 23, line 14, at end insert— group of people exist. I am not certain whether they “( ) a consideration of the willingness of tenants of PR will really be touched by the Green Deal because of properties to agree to repay the financial assistance the indifference of the landlord, the difficulties facing available to improve the energy efficiency of PR properties” the tenant, and the persistence of high energy bills due to the inadequacy of the insulation of the houses—that is the simplest form of improvement that such properties Baroness Noakes: My Lords, we are sticking for the could have. No matter how much encouragement we time being with Clause 36(5). I have another suggestion give either to the tenant or to the landlord in these to make. The report that is required under this subsection circumstances, I am not sure that much will happen. focuses on property characteristics and on landlords, We might have to fall back on other forms of remedial but it does not seem to say anything about tenants. If action, which might not have the market finesse that landlords enter into a Green Deal scheme, it will mean the Green Deal is supposed to promise. that the energy bills of tenants will increase and thus tenants’ willingness to pay is an important element which should not be ignored. The theory is that the Lord Teverson: My Lords, I am a landlord—very golden rule would not allow a Green Deal to go ahead much in the line that the noble Lord, Lord Best, if the energy savings do not cover the additional cost described of one property, but I thought that I should of energy bills, but it is less than clear that tenants will declare that interest in this debate. see the analysis in that way. They will have different time horizons from, say, owner-occupiers, and almost Lord Best: I shall just add another statistical piece certainly different appetites for risk. While tenants in of information. Some 40 per cent of tenants move the private rented sector are clearly not homogenous, I within a year of the occupation of their home. In imagine that significant numbers do not have the principle, the idea of consulting with the residents of a ability to analyse a Green Deal and its potential place before you start doing anything to it is entirely impact on their household finances in their rented right, but we have a big transient population in the accommodation, or whether, even if they could analyse private rented sector. My other point is that, although it, they would be comfortable with it. you could consult the first occupier, the debt is taken The purpose of the amendment is to ask the Minister on and lasts 25 years. In almost no cases will the same to explain what role the Government see for tenants in person be there for all that period, and you are not decisions under this clause. It seems that they have no able to consult people further down the line about a existence in the context of a scheme, yet they are the decision taken by an earlier tenant. Although I sympathise ones who will be paying the energy bills. I beg to move. with the sentiment that one should consult with the tenants, this is possibly impractical. Lord Teverson: My Lords, I welcome this amendment from my noble friend. It is important that tenants are Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, we are getting actually mentioned, which is the emphasis here. The to the complexities and challenges of the Green Deal. broader point is that although tenants are not a We had early indications this afternoon of the problems homogenous group, because of the differences that in the private rented sector; they are not solely in that arise in the sector, there certainly will be people who sector, but they mushroom in significant ways so far as cannot and never will be able to afford their own it is concerned. The important statistic that the noble homes as opposed to more transient people who have Lord, Lord Best, brought in identifies the challenges not bought a property perhaps, because they are seeking before us. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, argued on to move on. The group will be different in many ways. the previous amendment, it is no doubt important that I therefore support the idea that the review should try we get as much information across as we can both to identify the particular hurdles faced by this group to landlords and to tenants. This is a major public GC 133 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 134

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] out, so if a tenant feels that it is to their detriment, information task, and we should make sure that this they have the right to refuse. Similarly, landlords must legislation enhances and creates the opportunities for make clear to new tenants if a Green Deal is attached the spread of as much information as possible. Of to a rental property before they sign a contract. course, as my noble friend Lord O’Neill identified, Given that these consumer safeguards are already there will be groups who are difficult to reach and for in place, and bearing in mind what the noble Baroness whom the relevance will be limited; that is where a is saying, I hope that at this stage she feels able to significant challenge is represented by this legislation. withdraw her amendment. We want the Minister’s assurance that he appreciates how important it is that the legislation be as enhancing Lord Teverson: I ask the Minister what happens as it can be on the need to distribute information so when we have a change of tenancy and the golden rule far as possible, and that we succeed in bringing the is met by the first tenant whose energy use is quite nation on board with regard to the objectives, benefits high, so it works, but the new tenant is a lower energy and significance for society. We have a whole range of user. They may be a smaller family or a smaller private interests that are massively diverse, so we should household or have a different preference as to how recognise the challenge that the Government face. they spend their money. The golden rule that was met by the first tenant might not be met by the second and Baroness Northover: My Lords, it is vital as a thread yet, because there is such a competition for rented running through this debate that we ensure that this accommodation, you will possibly get a position where deal has as wide an impact as possible, and we welcome the incoming tenant, although warned, will just say the input that noble Lords are putting into how that is yes anyway. to be achieved. I wonder if the Minister could remind us—or me—if there is an opportunity for the Green Deal to be The nature of the review, as my noble friend Lord renegotiated at that point or does the higher electricity Marland has indicated, will be discussed in a bit more rate stay the same all the way through? This may be detail shortly. I would note to the noble Lord, Lord important in terms of this change and whether subsequent O’Neill, in terms of hurdles to tenants, that this is one families could be put into energy poverty. of the reasons we want to give local authorities the power if needed to require improvements in the worst Baroness Noakes: Perhaps I may clarify the aspect accommodation. When my noble friend Lord Teverson of the review that I was probing. While the consent of said that he had to declare an interest, I was hoping the individual tenant to a Green Deal may be required, that it was not that he was a landlord of the type the point of making sure that this is covered in the mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill; it was review is that if there was widespread tenant apathy or reassuring that he was of the type mentioned by the unwillingness to get involved because of the issues noble Lord, Lord Best. that I have raised, there would be little point in going I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for tabling ahead with a regulatory approach, which is what this amendment, which would require that the review Chapter 4 allows the Government to do. I also suggested investigates the willingness of tenants to take on Green that the tenant environment should be properly assessed Deal repayments. We understand the intent behind before we go down the regulatory route. That is why I this proposal. As she herself said, the golden rule tabled the amendment. should mean that tenants’ bills should not go up as a result of the Green Deal because of the energy savings Baroness Northover: I hear what my noble friend they will be making. I see her slightly dissenting. That says. We will debate the review in more detail. My is part of the way this has been structured but we are noble friend Lord Marland has indicated that, in well aware of the points that have been made in addition to the areas that are listed in connection with previous debates on that. the review, there is the possibility that it will consider other things. It may be that the department should 4.45 pm give some thought to this area. I will respond to my noble friend Lord Teverson. I Baroness Noakes: Perhaps I can clarify the golden am concentrating on DfID, justice, et cetera. I am rule. The issue is that tenants have different time pretty sure that in this situation, should a tenant horizons so a tenant might be looking at a one or decide that they want to take a holiday from opting two-year time horizon for their tenancy, which is quite into the Green Deal, that would be possible. I remember different from the time horizon of looking out over a being briefed on that. That may fit the situation that 25-year period of an occupancy or long-term tenancy. the noble Lord spoke about in which a tenant decides That may well create difficulties in the rented sector that it is not in their interest that the Green Deal is because tenants analyse things differently. The point I pushed down the track and that they do not want to was trying to make was that the golden rule does not repay the charge. I will make absolutely sure that I am help to give a guide to rational decision-making for right about that. tenants. I am briefed that one cannot renegotiate the charge, but one can have a repayment holiday. Therefore, Baroness Northover: I understand what the noble should the tenant decide in that instance that that is Baroness is saying. These are all areas which the what they want to do, that would be possible. It does department is looking at. However, I point out that not mean that the money does not have to be paid the Bill already ensures that sitting tenants must give back. However, it may not have to be paid back by their express consent before a Green Deal can be taken that particular tenant at that time. It has also been GC 135 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 136 pointed out to me that there will be a Green Deal tenancy: it will be part of what they are offered. It ombudsman who will provide some protection. I hope does not seem possible that anyone can have a holiday that that will reassure noble Lords. in those circumstances, because that is what they joined in the first place. I realise that we have chosen to Lord Davies of Oldham: The Minister is doing her concentrate on people at the bottom end, with perhaps best in what we all appreciate is a very difficult area. little choice in the tenancy they have. I very much We all understand that the tenant’s response is optional. agree with the comments made about some landlords. We discussed this in the previous sitting of the Committee. However, in my experience of having had a lot of We cannot have a situation where a tenant exercises an landlords in my former constituency, a good number absolute veto, because one person might operate a were decent. In those circumstances all I am suggesting veto on 400 fellow tenants, all of whom agreed to the is that when people enter into an agreement, they change. We all recognise that there is no veto. However, know what the situation is, and there certainly should there is an issue about a tenant’s consent and subsequent not be a holiday. payments. The Minister is leading us down some The only circumstance seems to be the first one, strange paths. Are we saying that the holiday could where people are actually able to control the heating last for the whole period of their tenancy, however bills. If you have better insulation, you can decide long that might be? Who makes the judgment on the whether you are going to continue with the amount of right to opt out of an agreement that admittedly may heating you had before—in other words the price you have preceded their arrival in the tenancy? How do had before—but get more benefit from it because the they exercise the opt-out, for how long, in which house is better insulated. Alternately, you may decide—and circumstances and who is the adjudicator? many people do—that you would prefer to get even warmer. I am sure people who have gone canvassing Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I feel provoked to know that there are certain houses where you bang on intervene. We are making the subject far too complex. the door and cannot stop yourself stepping back from I thought that I heard, a few minutes ago, that the the wave of heat that hits you. It is not always true that golden rule of the Green Deal would be that the we are sensible about our heating. The fact is that energy savings would equal the cost increases. If I did these things are within the control of the tenant, and I not hear that, I am mistaken, but I am fairly sure that I find it difficult to understand why we are going down did. this line. Tenants have a good deal here, paid for by the If that is the case, let us consider a situation where state, and it is absolutely right; but do not let ourselves one tenant leaves and a new tenant comes in. Provided get into a position in which we find that tenants are that rule applies, there is no disadvantage or, indeed, able to turn up the heat and then ask for a holiday advantage to the new tenant in saying that he does not because it does not work out as they thought it would. want to be part of the deal. If the deal is cost-neutral, why is he likely to refuse to participate? Baroness Northover: Before I get dispatched back to I also think we need to bear in mind that word of DfID, justice, and all the other areas I am supposed to mouth is a very powerful force. Once the scheme be covering, I think I had better pull myself back and begins to operate on any sort of scale, I suspect that make sure that the whole area is reported on in due there will be a great deal of support from those who course. As I mentioned before, we will be looking at initially participate in it. They will all be telling their this review in a bit more detail in a later grouping, and friends that they have a warmer house; that their no doubt my noble friend Lord Marland will be able energy bills are at a new level; and that the improvements to put everybody—including me—absolutely straight apply to both tenants and landlords. I suspect that we as to what the situation is. I very much welcome the will get to the point after a time where tenants start to noble Lord, Lord Davies, trying to stop me going demand their landlord to make the improvements if down roads I should not go down, and I very much they cannot themselves. I am therefore optimistic about welcome the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, explaining the way this scheme will go, and we should not raise with such clarity how the golden rule works so that it too many potential difficulties. The difficulties are should indeed be to everybody’s benefit and so that, I there, I admit but in reality, once the scheme begins to hope, we will not find ourselves in difficult situations. take off, it will develop its own momentum and the nightmare scenarios being portrayed will not in fact 5pm exist. Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan: I would like to ask the noble Baroness one further question. What will Lord Deben: My Lords, I do not think we ought to happen in the short tenancy housing market if landlords take it quite as simply as that. One of the things we start increasing the rent on the basis that the house is learned from the Warm Homes operation—which I now better insulated as a consequence of the Green had the privilege of introducing—was that many people Deal? That would mean that subsequent tenants would live, as far as their heating is concerned, to the level be paying twice—once for the improved property, and that they can afford. If their house becomes better secondly for the improvement. Is there an ombudsperson insulated, what happens is not that they have a lower who is going to take care of that? bill: they merely warm the house better than they were able to do before. In other words, this is not as simple a Baroness Northover: I will resist the temptation to mathematical equation as one might think. speculate about areas that I may be less than well I am worried about the concept of a sort of holiday. briefed on. If the noble Lord wishes to bring that up If someone enters a tenancy where the agreement has again when my much better briefed noble friend Lord been made already, they will know the terms of the Marland is dealing with a suitable amendment, I GC 137 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 138

[BARONESS NORTHOVER] Lord Teverson: I apologise for having asked the would welcome that he does that. ECO will target Minister a not particularly helpful question earlier. I households and presumably subsidise poorer ones. want only to make a brief point that relates to this However, before I get myself into any more of a issue, and I should declare that I am a member of a complicated mess, I invite the noble Baroness, having local authority. I welcome the fact that local authorities led me down various alleys, to withdraw the amendment. are being brought back into the frame as well as the recognition that there will be implications at a time of Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I am happy to withdraw financial stringency but, as the noble Baroness has the amendment. I think that we have opened up a said, local authorities will want to become involved in number of interesting areas in the debate on my small this area, and it is really important that they are. amendment. I cannot pretend that the Minister has However, there is a slight irony here in that I am answered all the points to the satisfaction of the concerned that sometimes local authorities are unable Committee. I feel sure that, in one way or another, we to control building regulations sufficiently to minimise will return to this topic when we reach Report stage; the amount of work that has to be done on these sorts but, for the time being, I beg leave to withdraw. of deals. If buildings are constructed to the specifications set out in the building regulations when they are first built, the problems might not be as great as they are Amendment 20M withdrawn. now. The enforcement of building regulations and standards of insulation is a lesson because where in Amendment 20MA not moved. the past money has been saved in these areas, that has not had a good effect in terms of housing and energy performance standards for the future. I make the Amendment 20MB point, but it is not necessarily completely relevant to Moved by Baroness Smith of Basildon this amendment. 20MB: Clause 36, page 23, line 14, at end insert— “( ) a full assessment of the burden placed on local Baroness Northover: I thank the noble Baroness for authorities as a result of any duty to improve the energy her straightforward amendment and acknowledge her efficiency of the private rented sector” concern about the funding of any additional burdens on local authorities. I can assure noble Lords that Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, this is a should we require local authorities to carry out any fairly straightforward amendment; I like to be new duties, we will make a full assessment of the costs straightforward to help the Ministers. I declare an of such actions and how they might be appropriately interest as a current vice-president of the Local funded. We are already committed to ensuring that Government Association; therefore I have some concerns new burdens on local authorities are properly funded and an understanding of the impact of additional to avoid pressure on council tax. With this explanation burdens on local government. I am helped by the and assurance, I hope that the noble Baroness will be Minister’s response to my last question. Whatever the content to withdraw her amendment. purpose of the review—which I understood was to seek a review to maximise the uptake of the Green Baroness Smith of Basildon: I beg leave to withdraw Deal, or, as the Minister said, to safeguard against the amendment. regulation—we need to ensure that any new duty that is placed on local authorities can be properly scoped Amendment 20MB withdrawn. and evaluated to get a full assessment of the impact that will have. My sense is that local authorities recognise the Amendment 20N importance of the Green Deal, they want it to work Moved by Baroness Noakes and they want to be involved. They are aware of the 20N: Clause 36, page 23, line 15, leave out “2014” and insert duties being placed on them by this Bill. However, “2015” Clause 37 outlines some of the regulations that were brought in by the Secretary of State that will impact and place duties on local government. Therefore, it is Baroness Noakes: I shall speak also to Amendments 20Y sensible that these be included as part of the review so and 21C in this group. These amendments concern the that they can be properly understood in terms of what timing of the regulations that will affect the private it will cost local government, the implications on local rented sector. Currently, the review that is required government budgets, the implications on the time that under Clause 36 has to be published by 1 April 2014, will have to be spent by the officers who undertake it, and the regulations that will follow the review, as the implications on their skills, and what additional provided for in Clauses 37 and 40, should come into information local government will need. It is a very effect no earlier than 1 April 2015. The effect of my straightforward provision to ensure, as we proceed amendments would be to slip all of those dates by and progress on this, that we can be confident that exactly one year. local government will be in the right place to undertake As I understand it, the Green Deal regulations its responsibilities under the terms of the Bill. It is themselves are likely to come into force in October seeking to ensure in a new provision under subsection (5) 2012. If that is the case, the review under Clause 36(4) that we make a proper assessment of the impact on cannot start until October 2013. The report must be local authorities. published by April 2014, which gives a mere six months. GC 139 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 140

Since Ministers have said that a key element will be the Whether or not we have sophisticated analysis, we will impact of the Green Deal, it is difficult to see whether have enough data-capture to understand whether it is enough data from the early stages of the Green Deal starting to work. I would be fundamentally concerned, will be available to reach an informed assessment. and would not believe it to be the case because of the Indeed, initial take-up may well be low among the importance of the programme, if the Secretary of private rented sector precisely because Green Deal State were just to sit in his chair—I know that he providers will target the very much easier owner-occupied would not do this—and say, “I’ve got to wait until sector rather than try to reach this diverse group of 2014 to test this thing out and see whether I need to do private sector landlords with different types of tenants. anything else”. Surely that will not be the case. A key component of the review under Clause 36(5)(a) I could perhaps cope with local authorities not is a being empowered to take action before 2015, although “comparison of the energy efficiency”, I am very sceptical even about that timeframe. I ask of private rented sector properties with that of non-private the Minister to imagine what actions the Government rented sector properties. The British Property Federation might take, apart from the formal process detailed has pointed out that the most comprehensive statistics here, to make sure that the tenanted sector gets a move available on housing are to be found in the English on. This is my problem with the issue. There are very Housing Survey, but they take 18 months from collection good landlords. I have nothing against the private to be published. So the review that is going to be rented sector, which is crucial in delivering accommodation taking place in the six months from October 2013 to to families. However, the Bill’s timetable gives a signal April 2014 will use data that are considerably out of that says, “Actually, guys, you don’t have to do anything date and will not reflect the impact of the Green Deal. until 2015. That’s when we’ll start to get angry, and Therefore, the review, based on heaven knows what until then there won’t be any pressure”. information, could lead to regulations being enforced from April 2015, only one year later. Those who are 5.15 pm involved in the private rented sector believe that more Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I was about to time should be made available before something as make the same speech. But as the Minister is likely heavy-handed as regulation under this chapter is to listen to a noble Lord who supports the coalition introduced. rather than to the Official Opposition, I will merely A number of bodies have lobbied for the Bill’s say that of course it can be seen from our amendment provisions on the private rented sector to be modified. that we saw no reason why there should be a time However, none of them has suggested a date as early constraint—a delaying element—built in. We very much as 2015. They seem to have coalesced around 2016. It agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said is interesting that the Government’s date is 2015 while about the impact of these amendments building an those who have campaigned most actively for action extra year of delay. But we are not quite clear on why to be taken in the private rented sector are content there should be a restriction in Clause 37(8), which is with 2016. My amendments challenge the Government why we have tabled an amendment for its deletion. to say why the timetables set out in the Bill are fair and I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson. Of practical. I beg to move. course, we will not get a perfect profile of the challenge which lies ahead. Governments never have perfect Lord Teverson: My Lords, I am very concerned information on which to act, any more than anyone about the amendment. This is one of the risks of the operating in the so-called market mechanism ever has critical path that we have in the Bill. I accept that perfect information on which to act. But we will have because of training requirements, the setting up of clear indicators of where the issues lie. We do not see everything that has to be done, proper consultation, why we should build into statute—certainly, not through and because the Green Deal has to work effectively, an amendment—an extension to what the Government preparation is crucial and we cannot expect it to start think is realistic and what can be achieved. I hope that until 2012. That is the Government’s expectation. the Minister will answer the points made by the noble Therefore, we have the whole of this year and some Lord, Lord Teverson. part of next year. It is logical to start the review of the private rented sector by 2013. It will not report until Lord Marland: My Lords, I should like to correct 2014 and therefore we could not precipitately take the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, by saying action until 2015. that of course I listen to the Opposition. It is fundamental I like the direct approach on these issues of my to this entente cordiale that we currently enjoy that I noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith. If the policy is not listen to the Opposition. The whole purpose of this working for tenants and landlords—which is one of debate is to listen to people and to take in their views. the key areas of policy importance—the amendment We now have two sides of the argument: one side says would mean that we would have to twiddle our thumbs that we should start the review at a shorter time, and for four years from when the Bill gets Royal Assent. the other side says that we should push it out and asks That worries me. There is logic in the current timeframe. whether the time is readily available. It is questionable whether that is the case in the The review will not be just one review; it will be amendment of the noble Baroness. constant. We have to keep this under constant review. If the Bill goes through in its current form, it will be Having listened to the arguments, I would be minded—and obvious within a year—if we are collecting any data— I will urge my colleagues to do the same—to start our whether it is working in the private rented sector. first review in 2013. At least that would be a start and GC 141 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 142

[LORD MARLAND] they have no idea of the timetable on which they have allow us to see, as my noble friend Lord Teverson to act, so it is very clear. I have made quite a concession asked, whether it is working. We should do that at the already that we are going to review the first date, earliest possible time and set down a timetable in which will be 2013, and that thereafter there will be which to do it. The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, dates to monitor how this Bill goes forward. I disagree perhaps feels that we should give a greater time. Of with the noble Lord on this rare occasion. We have to course, there will be a greater time, because we will send clear signals to the market as to how this is going review it to see whether this is working. to operate. We are trying to achieve an acceleration of a reduction of carbon and of take-up on the Green Deal. It is Lord Jenkin of Roding: Perhaps I may add a word incumbent on the Government to make sure that it is or two to the debate because I put my name on the working and to urge everyone to get on with it. Therefore, amendment. We spent a good part of this afternoon’s I invite the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment. proceedings all agreeing that the Government face a Before I sit down, I should declare an interest as a major challenge in seeking to extend the Green Deal landlord, which I perhaps should have done at the or apply the Green Deal to the private rented sector; beginning. It is in the House of Lords register of indeed many noble Lords from all parts of the Grand interests. Committee were stressing the problems that are being Perhaps I may help my noble friend who was thrown faced on this. I agree with that. into the lion’s den with some rigorous questioning and Although I have a lot of sympathy for those who answer two or three of the questions that were put. say we have waited a long time, we must get on with The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan, who this. If we try to hurry it forward and bring forward is not in his place, asked what would happen to short-term the date of the review and curtail the length of time tenancies if bills were put up as a result of these that the review may take, it will go off at half cock. measures. My answer to that is that they would be very When dealing with the complexities and the challenge, short-term tenancies because people would look elsewhere which I described earlier as enormous when citing the for a better and more commercial short-term tenancy. federation, we have to be prepared to make sure that We are in a competitive market in that respect. the authorities and all the people who take part in As regards payment holidays, the Bill enables the this—the property owners, landlords and tenants so Government to specify circumstances in which Green far as is possible—are sufficiently aware of what is Deal payments can be suspended. The policy of this is expected before one tries to rush forward. being consulted on, as one would expect, and we will My noble friend Lord Teverson says that by 2013 develop that as we go through consultation. But we do we will know and have enough experience, but with not expect that tenants will be able to opt out other the greatest respect I do not believe that for a moment. than in the usual circumstances. This is going to start pretty slow and the immediate reaction will be people coming along and saying “It’s I ask noble Lords to forgive me for dealing with not happening”, and that we have to have compulsion these questions now, although they might want to and the full panoply of regulations. That would be come back to these issues. But let us do that as we very unwise because it might get the process off in the follow the Bill through by way of information. The wrong way. noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked about the enforcement of building regulations. Obviously, that is a matter for The Minister has been absolutely right. The CLG and we will pass his remarks on as noble Lords Government do not want to go down the road of would normally expect. I hope that that clarifies a compulsion through regulation, yet if one rushes the couple of the points and that it enables the noble review and starts to make decisions on what is bound Baroness to withdraw her amendment. to be pretty imperfect and incomplete information, my guess is that is that we will be in greater difficulty than we otherwise would have been. I would therefore Lord Davies of Oldham: The noble Lord has clarified urge more caution on this. a number of interesting points but we are talking The date that my noble friend and I have put on this about dates here and I am not sure the Minister has amendment and the other amendments that go with it responded on the issue of dates. What is the point of are perfectly realistic and I would not agree with the having a statutory limit with regard to these regulations noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, that we could in circumstances where the Government are hoping to bring the thing forward. That would run straight into make progress? As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, the dangers which I have been trying, in my own indicated and I agree with him entirely, we do not imperfect way, to point out. know the nature of the information, how full it will be Perhaps I can say to my noble friends on the Front or the basis on which the Government will act. Why Bench that, if the Government are being criticised for build in a set date when in fact the Government may anything, it is that on a number of issues they are be able to act against their good instincts with regard moving too fast and trying to do too much at the same to this Bill earlier if it were not prescribed by the time. We are dealing here with a problem whose origins legislation? We do not need this prescription. go back many decades. Indeed, in some cases it will be centuries. To try to rush forward and deal with it all in Lord Marland: The answer is quite simple. We have a relatively short time is a potential recipe for disaster. to put in a prescribed date or it is unfair on those who I hope that the Government will get the message that have to fulfil their obligations by that time. If you do this needs a measured approach with enough time not prescribe the time when we are going to review it, being given for people to consider and make sure that GC 143 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 144 they understand the information that is to come out of to make it work. I will amplify what I said earlier. The the review before rushing to make regulations. That start of the review will be at the end of 2013. Some comes back to the very first point I made earlier this people—I am one—are persuaded that it should be afternoon. If you go too fast, it will have the effect of done then, while others think that it should be done drying up the rented sector. People will throw their later. We must start somewhere and get on with it. We hands in the air and say, “Blow that. I am not going to cannot allow the land to lie fallow. We have a massive let any more”. That would be a very great pity. and monumental task. As my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding graciously admitted, this has been sitting Lord Teverson: Perhaps I could respond to that around unresolved for a long time. The Government because it is exactly not what I am saying. I am must get on and resolve it. Therefore, I am afraid that surprised that we have a Bill where the Government I do not agree with the amendment. Perhaps we will are constraining themselves with a “best after” date as discuss the issue further. In the mean time, I ask my opposed to a “best before” one. I am not suggesting noble friend Lady Noakes to withdraw the amendment. that things have to move forward at any time, but that we have within the Bill something that Governments 5.30 pm normally try absolutely to avoid, which is a restriction Baroness Noakes: My Lords, we have had an interesting on when they can take action if they feel that that debate, with differing views on the most important action is necessary. We all hope that the action will not factors, including whether we should press on quickly be necessary, although I note that a report of the or make sure that we are very clear about whether review must be published by 1 April 2014, so there is a regulatory action is required. The purpose of amendments longstop. However, while I am the last person to argue is not to say that the Government should not, for that we should not put the quality and success of this example, communicate with landlords in the rented scheme first—that is essential and why the 2012 date is sector to ensure that, so far as possible, they are right—what I find difficult to understand is not that encouraged to act. My concern is to ensure that regulation we are forcing the Government to do this earlier, but is not rushed into. There is a danger that the Minister’s that they could not exercise their own power to move rather gung-ho approach will be replicated across the forward if they felt it necessary to do so. whole of his department. I fear that precipitate action I did invite the Minister to suggest, if the scheme may be taken in this area. was seen not to be moving forward particularly well, other ways of doing it. I am sure that there are ways outside this Bill that the Government would get on Lord Marland: I slightly object to it being called a with. Indeed, I know that my noble friend would do gung-ho approach. It is a very measured approach that, which may be part of making sure that landlords that has taken a lot of time. I am saying merely that a are aware of the benefits of the scheme, that it exists timetable should be available, that we should stick to it and can be successful. We have also discussed ways of and that we should send out the right signals to the utilising the local authorities, although not through market. enforcement because I am sure that the Government would find other ways to respond. What I find difficult Baroness Noakes: I will withdraw the word “gung-ho”, is that the Government have imposed a constraint on but perhaps not the sentiment. The Minister seems to themselves in the Bill about when the process can be rushing towards action, particularly regulatory action, start. rather than focusing on the outcomes that are required. The need to take regulatory action would be a failure Lord Marland: I am afraid that I cannot agree with on the part of the Government. This early timetable my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding. I deeply will allow Ministers to be put under pressure by those believe that Government have lost themselves in a who think that much tougher regulatory action should mire by failing to proceed quickly on things. We have be taken much faster. That would not be the best a massive task ahead of us of reforming so many approach in this area. The points of my noble friend things in order to meet our commitments and face the Lord Jenkin were well made. As the noble Lord, Lord challenges that lie ahead, so I am afraid I do not agree Best, pointed out the rented sector is very complex, that we should elasticate time so that some people in with a large number of different players who are not the building sector who have been briefing noble Lords easily reached through organised groupings. Therefore, do not feel that they are perhaps being rushed into action in this sector will be particularly difficult. That something. is another reason for a longer timetable. We are now effectively at 1 January 2011 and we are talking about having a review in perhaps two years’ Lord Marland: Perhaps I may clarify one point for time. Every professional organisation knows about the the noble Baroness. There are fundamental differences Green Deal. People understand the possibilities that between reviews and regulations. It is important that are available and a number are already making plans we do not confuse them. What the Bill states is that to take full advantage of it and put it into the housing there will not be any regulation before 2015. We will sector. It is therefore not right that the Government simply review the activity that has gone on in the should not set down tight timelines to see how this market up to the end of 2013 in order to see what progresses. progress has been made. The Governments are not I will follow up on the remarks of my noble friend fixated on regulation. In fact, we have a common tenet Lord Teverson that we need to find out early on if it is of “one in, one out”. We are not in a rush to regulate working and, if it is not, what action we need to take for the sake of regulating. We are talking merely about GC 145 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 146

[LORD MARLAND] will allow landlords to plan ahead; will allow the a review, not an insistence on regulation. We will supply chains to get their supplies in; and possibly will review the situation to see whether we can urge the allow new business models to be developed to serve market to act more speedily if it needs to do so. the private rented sector. That is why I have introduced this amendment to stop the introduction of the measures Baroness Noakes: I thank the noble Lord for that. I being conditional on the outcome of the review established am sure that the Government will keep this under in Clause 36. review. The issue is that a formal review will be launched I will speak further to other amendments, which at a particularly early date when the evidence on the will give an idea of what else could be happening in impact of the Green Deal will be relatively light. This local authorities to speed up action in the private will lead to rushed and ill considered action. I will not rented sector, as many of us want. We are all saying pursue this further, but will read carefully in Hansard how pleased we are that the Government have grasped what the Minister and other noble Lords have said the nettle. For goodness’ sake, let us try to be keen and and may return to it, perhaps in a different form, on encourage them to get on with it. I beg to move. Report. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Viscount Amendment 20N withdrawn. Ullswater): My Lords, I must advise your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to I will not be able to Clause 36 agreed. call Amendments 20PA and 20Q because of pre-emption.

Clause 37 : Power to make domestic energy efficiency Lord Deben: My Lords, I would like to suggest— regulations: England and Wales Baroness Smith of Basildon: Amendment 20PA, which is in my name, is in some ways not dissimilar to Amendment 20P the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Moved by Baroness Maddock Lady Maddock. I think that we are perhaps trying to achieve the same ends in different ways. We both 20P: Clause 37, page 23, line 18, leave out subsection (1) raised concerns that any regulations introduced by local authorities should not be conditional on a review BaronessMaddock:MyLords,inmovingAmendment20P, taking place. It is worth looking at the scale of the perhaps I shall half come to the rescue of the previous problem, which we will perhaps do in respect of the discussion. Clause 37 refers to action by local authorities. next group of amendments. Nineteen per cent of My amendment would stop the introduction of some private tenants live in fuel poverty. The figures and the measures being conditional upon the outcome of the impact assessment show how great the problem is for review to be established under Clause 36. My noble those who live in the private rented sector, the difficulties friend the Minister has said that he wants things to get that they face in meeting their bills and the impact of going in this sector. We have had a view that perhaps living in cold properties on their health. we are trying to get going too quickly. Properties in the private rented sector have the I agree with the Minister and with my noble friend worst energy performance rating of any property sector Lord Teverson that we should do all that we can to in the UK. My amendment takes a slightly different encourage this to happen quickly. That is why I am approach to that of the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock. anxious that some things can be done that are not However, we share a widespread concern about the conditional on the review. I think that my amendments timing of the review and the fact that until the review in the next group will help us to get going quickly. takes place no regulations can be brought in. We do Making regulations conditional on a review increases not want the action to be conditional on the review, the likelihood that landlords will not do anything but any regulations brought in must improve energy before 2015. However, if we set a clear minimum efficiency. standard now to come into force after 2015, it would As regards the number of properties available to give landlords absolute clarity that from 2016 they rent, no one wants to see a decrease. However, the would not be able to re-let a property with an F or G issue is the degree of decrease. I am sure that although rating, thus allowing a significant time for preparation the Minister will tell me that the word “significant” is and encouraging voluntary uptake. not normally used in legislation, he will understand Crucially, the Government’s impact assessment admits the point that we are making. There may be times that, because use of the powers to regulate is conditional when it is appropriate to have a short-term decrease in on the outcome of the review, one would not expect the rented housing stock in order that work can be landlords to install energy efficiency measures in significant undertaken, but no one wants to see a permanent or a numbers as a direct result of taking these powers. It is long-term decrease. We have put in the word “significant” therefore assumed that there will be no pre-emptive to address that and to tease out from the Minister action by landlords, but we could encourage action what he anticipates when he refers to a decrease in the beforehand. If we set up a clear, timetabled, minimum housing stock. standard of legislation now, it would maximise the The clause raises the enormous concern that the opportunity for voluntary compliance by landlords regulations will be pushed so far into the future that and minimise the need for enforcement action later. the significant problems of energy efficiency that exist The current legislation might achieve the reverse. However, now for people living in fuel poverty in the private a clear signal now will provide certainty for the market; rented sector will not be addressed. I am grateful to GC 147 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 148 the Residential Landlords Association, to which we have a wide range of views on these issues. It is will come in the next group of amendments. The therefore important that the findings of the review are private sector needs certainty. As the Bill stands, all subjected to full and dispassionate scrutiny by both that it knows is that there will be a review, after which Houses and approved as the basis, effectively, for the it may be required to undertake energy efficiency Secretary of State to go forward and introduce regulations. measures. But there is no clarity or certainty. This is a While I have treated this in a rather light-hearted way, probing amendment. I hope that the Minister understands there is a serious point here in that we want to be clear the points that are being made and why the concerns before defaulting to regulation. This would provide have been raised; namely, that great problems exist in another pause in the process before ending up in the private rented sector. regulation. For that reason, I hope that the Minister will favour my amendment in this group and not those of the two other noble Baronesses. Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 20Q in this group. I allowed it to be grouped with Amendments 20P and 20PA because it 5.45 pm gives a contrasting view on the topic. The amendment Lord Deben: I did try to get in rather earlier, but I moved by my noble friend Lady Maddock, and that am now able to say that I would be very unhappy if the spoken to by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, seek to Minister were to go down the route of putting in remove the conditionality, either totally or in relation another pause. We have had enough pauses in this to the report, before regulations are introduced. My over the past 20 years, so really we have now got to get concern, which I expressed earlier, is to ensure that on with it. I also have a slight difficulty believing that regulation is not introduced unless there has been there is a connection between green bias and green careful thought and consideration, because a regulatory ideologues. I hope that one is not a green ideologue, solution would be an admission of failure and is not to but I hope that there is a green bias. If there is not, the be undertaken lightly. world will be in some difficulty. The concept that the Clause 37(1) requires not only that the report is opposite of that is a person who is somehow independent published but that the Secretary of State considers and not of that kind worries me very much. I hope, that the regulations will improve energy efficiency and therefore, that the Minister will not go down this not reduce the number of properties available for rent. route. Those are the good requirements prior to the introduction My problem with the first part of the clause is that I of any regulation, and I support them. Amendment 20Q fear the Minister will be in real difficulties. Under adds another requirement, namely that the report subsection (1)(b)(ii), he has to consider that the regulations, should be approved by both Houses of Parliament. We have already discussed the fact that the use of the “will not decrease the number of properties available for rent”. regulation-making powers in this chapter could have a Let us consider this in imaginary terms. When you significant impact on the private rented sector, both in think of some of the landlords we have, I can see a terms of economics and of the regulatory burden that number of them saying, “I don’t want to spend anything could be laid on it. It will be important to ensure the and I don’t want to have anything to do with it. If widest possible consideration of the impact of any there are regulations, I will take my property off the regulation. I tabled my amendment in relation to market”. In those circumstances, how on earth will the Clause 37, but my points apply also to Clause 40, Minister be able to say that he does not consider that which covers the power to make tenants’ energy efficiency there will be a decrease in the number of properties improvement regulations. Both will have a significant available for rent? He could say that someone is off impact. their head or make any number of comments, but the Let us assume for a moment that the Secretary of wording of this sub-paragraph could mean that he State is some kind of ideologue who sees everything might be under judicial review if it could be adduced through green-tinted spectacles. While not for a moment that any landlord had taken this view. would I say that this is a description of the current I am closely following the noble Baroness, Lady holder of that office, let us assume that we have such a Smith, here. The problem is that this is one of those green ideologue in the position of Secretary of State. rare occasions where the actual wording is dangerously That Secretary of State appoints another green ideologue total. It is does not say “significant” or perhaps that to carry out the review, because Clause 36 makes no there is “good reason to believe” that the number of requirement for the reviewer to be an independent available properties would decrease in more than a person. We could easily get one ideologue appointing marginal way. There is nothing about whether the another ideologue—there are rather a lot of them situation might change over time. It is a dangerous around in this area—to carry out a review which sentence and I hope that the Minister will agree at would then be undertaken from a particular set of least to think about it again. I think that it is wrong. prejudices. My amendment, in addition to providing The second reason why I am a supporter of the the ordinary involvement of Parliament in such an amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady important decision at any early stage and not simply Maddock, is that I think that, although it is reasonable in approving regulations, in approving the report would to say that regulations should not be made until the also be able to provide some kind of counterweight if report has been published, it is perfectly reasonable a green bias was built into the review. to say that, once the report has been published— I am aware, of course, that there is a form of notwithstanding the worries of the noble Baroness, institutionalised bias along certain lines in both Houses Lady Noakes—it should then be for the Minister to of Parliament, and that Members of both Houses make his decisions in the context of the report. Picking GC 149 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 150

[LORD DEBEN] has said. If we cannot encourage people through these out two things in the way that subsection (b) does will actions to participate in this opportunity—this great limit his ability. After all, this is a Government who do opportunity—then we will have failed and we will, not believe in and do not like regulation; they turn to therefore, have to regulate accordingly. However, as I regulation only when necessary.My fear is that regulation said earlier, regulation is made on the basis that we may be necessary simply because the people in this have a “one in, one out”, arrangement, so we will have business—or a very large number of them, as the to look at the matter very carefully. I am not into noble Baroness opposite said—are not an easy lot to “what if” scenarios about ideology, but I think that get to do things in a rational and sensible way. However, Government have quite a strong track record of choosing we are going to do our best. No one can possibly someone to do a review. That individual has to withstand imagine that this Government will not go as far as it the brickbats and the challenges of both Houses as to can to help people to do their best. whether they are competent or going to give fair Having been responsible for the housing policy of reason. Of course we must remind ourselves, as we do the United Kingdom for some years, I have to say that periodically, that the Green Deal will be a market-led private landlords—even the good ones—are not the product. We have to have confidence in the market easiest group of people to corral. There are some—rather without imposing too much regulation if the people fewer than some people think—who are certainly not involved are to go and be the proponents of the good and who are impossible to corral. Given that market. On that basis, I ask the noble Baroness, Lady that is what we know now, this may be an area where— Noakes, to consider withdrawing her amendment. however hard we may wish to bear down on Amendments 20PA, 20P and 20Q would impact on regulation—we may need to do something. If we come the preconditions ahead of a Secretary of State being to that conclusion, surely we ought to leave it in the able to make these regulations. The Secretary of State hands of the Minster, who will, after all, have to argue will be able to make regulations only following publication his case for doing something that he has said that he of the review and only if he considers that the regulations does not want to do. He will have to argue his case are necessary to improve the energy efficiency of domestic against the general view of the coalition parties in private rented properties and would not decrease the both Houses of Parliament, and he will have to lay the number of properties available for rent. That is the regulations. Therefore, there are quite a number of framework that I mentioned earlier. hurdles in his way anyway in addition to any psychological I hope that that largely covers the questions that dislike of regulation. have been asked. I invite noble Lords to withdraw I would much prefer the Secretary of State to be their amendments. faced with the simple statement of the report. The report will say to him these things, and he will have to The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, although I have make up his mind about it. That is what I would not participated greatly, I have attended quite a few of prefer. I would be happy to accept subsection (1)(a) of the Committee’s meetings. The Minister says that he Clause 37—although, as no such amendment has been will take away and consider issues such as those raised put down, I would be prepared to go for not having by my noble friend Lord Deben. With the great efficiency subsection (1) at all—but it seems to me that the of this Committee, we are presently discussing the Minister has undermined his position in a way I would clauses to do with England and Wales, but exactly have preferred him not to have done. Therefore, I mirroring clauses, which are word for word the same, would like him to accept this amendment. Certainly, I later extend the provisions to Scotland. However, nobody think that he would be well advised, if I may say so, to has thought to extend their amendments into that look at subsection (1)(b)(ii), because whatever bits of same text, but no doubt the Minister will consider— notes he gets handed to him from behind, I suspect that he will rue the day that he included that provision, Baroness Noakes: Boring. because somebody will make mischief over it—even if it is somebody who just wants to push this off because The Duke of Montrose: Well, I have said that it is they do not really believe in it. highly efficient to consider these matters at the same time.

Lord Marland: My Lords, I am very grateful to the Lord Marland: Perhaps I should clarify that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, for his remarks and to authorities in Scotland will and can do whatever they others for the remarks that they have made. Before we want with their own powers. We are acting only as a start, to get us on the right footing, I would like to facilitator for them to consider enacting those powers. say that his excellent remarks about Amendment 20PA I hope that that clarifies the matter for the noble Duke. and subsection (1)(b)(ii) are very well made. Of course we will consider his comments, take them away and Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I thank the Minister see how best we can improve matters. I am very for his reply. In a minute, I will be moving further grateful that he and the noble Baroness have drawn amendments that are about regulation in local authorities. our attention to that particular issue, because these I hear what the Minister says. We may want to return things do need tightening up. to this another time, depending on the outcome of On Amendment 20Q—some of this was answered further discussions on this area. by my noble friend Lord Deben—I agree with my I say to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that, not for noble friend Lady Noakes that it is an admission of the first time, I am grateful to him for his support in failure for Government to regulate. That is a primary this sort of area—the last time being rather long ago tenet of this Government, as my noble friend Lord Deben in another place. I am very pleased to see the noble GC 151 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 152

Lord here because I know that he is a great enthusiast take action by not claiming an exemption for the of the sorts of things that we are trying to put forward property, which he could do by going through a court in this Bill. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw or tribunal process. the amendment. I believe that the measures should be brought forward Amendment 20P withdrawn. to 2012 and used to give local authorities an effective tool to make progress on improving the worst of the Amendment 20PA not moved. local private rented sector housing stock at a pace that is appropriate to local circumstances. This is important because local authorities know best what the local Amendment 20Q not moved. circumstances are, so it would be good if we could encourage them and landlords to start taking action The Deputy Chairman of Committees: My Lords, it sooner. has been suggested that this may be a good time for the Committee to adjourn for 10 minutes. We will There is no guarantee, as the Bill is written, that return at about eight minutes past 6. properties will be brought out of bands F or G on the request of local authorities. Indeed, given that the 5.58 pm Secretary may determine in regulations what level of energy efficiency was deemed to be too low and therefore Sitting suspended. requiring improvement, there is no guarantee that, despite the intention as set out in the impact assessment, properties other than those withaGrating will be 6.09 pm required to improve. The Bill also does not allow local authorities to carry out works by default, whereby Amendment 20R local authorities can carry out general improvement works in other areas and charge the landlord. That Moved by Baroness Maddock would be useful in this area as well; indeed, it is rather 20R: Clause 37, page 23, line 26, leave out “may make regulations” more useful than issuing a fine, because the work and insert “shall make regulations to come into force no later would actually get done. This flexibility is important than 1 April 2012 setting a minimum energy efficiency level for to ensure that as many properties as possible are domestic PR properties and” improved rather than simply issuing penalties to landlords, and is something that I know has been called for by Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I shall speak also to the Local Government Association. I have already Amendments 20S to 20X. What I am trying to do here declared that I am a vice-president of the LGA, and I is to hurry up local authorities’ action since they are know that it is keen to act in this area. best placed to understand the state of the rented sector in their own areas. These amendments are designed The amendments grouped with Amendment 20R try to give local authorities a bit more certainty and a to address some of these problems. Amendment 20R better timetable for action. As the Bill stands, local and 20T would bring forward the date of the introduction authorities are merely given access to the energy of local authority improvement notices to 1 April performance certificate database. They will also be 2012, and would ensure that where a local authority allowed to continue to use their existing powers under issues a notice to a landlord requesting relevant energy the housing health and safety rating system. This efficiency improvements, those improvements would legislation will not give landlords long-term certainty ensure that the property is brought up to a minimum in advance about what their legal duty is or when they level of energy efficiency. Amendment 20U would give will be required to act. Further, they do not know now the Secretary of State the power to establish a local or whether local authorities will be given a duty to act national register of private rented properties, post-2015. Equally, after 2015 they will have no prior warning of when local authorities are likely to make a “for the purpose of distributing information relevant to this Act”, request of them or what that request might be. This to landlords and tenants. This touches on a point means that although a small minority of landlords made by my noble friend Lady Noakes, who was might react by taking their properties out of bands F concerned about information for landlords and tenants. or G in advance, I think that the vast majority will be The register could also be used for other purposes encouraged to wait and see. This will considerably designed to help increase the energy efficiency of delay any action. private rented properties. Local authorities will also have to take two actions, the first of which is a request and the second is to Amendment 20V would define energy performance monitor actions taken and enforce compliance. It would certificate band E as the minimum level of energy be perfectly legal for landlords to let out bands F and efficiency that private rented properties must meet if G-rated properties until local authorities get around landlords have been issued with a notice to make to issuing them with a request. In the absence of a relevant energy efficiency improvements by a local clear timetable for local authorities, this could be as authority. It also allows the minimum level to be late as 2020 or beyond, and a landlord would not be raised in accordance with the timetable as proposed committing an offence by letting out a band F or under Amendment 20W. That will ensure that the G-rated property until he had been issued with a minimum energy efficiency level is increased from request by the local authority and had then failed to band E at least once between 2016 and 2020. GC 153 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 154

6.15 pm skills, training and employment will be required. Local I hope that I have demonstrated that there is a big authorities will need to know what is required of role for local authorities. If we are careful about how them. It is so far down the road that that will be very we set out their duties in this Bill, we could get things difficult and the conditionality will add to it. It could shifting a little earlier, which I think is the will of many mean that this will have little impact and the worse in the Committee and many of the people in the wider properties—that is, the bands F and G-rated properties— country. In particular, local authorities have for years being with us for many years to come. I am sure that been trying to deal with problems of poor private that is not what the Minister intends. However, the rented sector properties. I have not been a councillor wording of the Bill would have that effect. for a few years, but many years ago I was a city There are a number of reasons why we might want councillor in Southampton. We used to struggle to to move more quickly. If we continue to have so many bring the private sector properties up. This is a real F and G-rated properties, the impact will be higher opportunity and, given that landlords can see what bills for those tenants and health issues. The Chief may happen later, let us for goodness’ sake put something Medical Officer has estimated that the annual cost to in this Bill to get them acting sooner rather than later. the NHS of winter-related diseases due to cold housing I beg to move. is in the region of £859 million. That is a significant cost to the NHS and the Government. The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I must advise I take on board the comments of the noble Baroness, your Lordships that if this amendment is agreed to I Lady Maddock, about minimum energy efficiency would not be able to call Amendment 20RA because standards. I have some sympathy with them. I would of pre-emption. be grateful if the Minister would look at this. The costs of improving properties in bands F and G to raise them into band E are well within the Green Deal. Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I speak to That would give the critical mass needed for it to take Amendments 20RA and 20YA, which, in the new off; it would give certainty to those involved; and a groupings list, are in this group. When I spoke to the significant number of people in F and G properties— previous group of amendments I mentioned the scale something like 40 per cent of tenants in these properties of the work that needs to be undertaken to improve are in fuel poverty—could be moved into E-rated the energy efficiency of our private rented sector and properties for less than £5,000 for each property. That how many homes are affected. If we look at the is a significant issue. information we have got from our own impact assessment report, from fuel poverty groups, from Friends of the I am unclear also about how the Minister can make Earth and from the Residential Landlords Association, regulations—it would be helpful if he would explain we see that all are agreed that this is an enormous this to me, because I may have missed something—unless sector with enormous problems. The scale of the work he knows what he is aiming for in terms of the kind that needs to be undertaken is huge. It is important and level of improvements that need to be made to that we discuss these amendments to ensure that we those properties that are not energy efficient. How get it right. does he know that the correct regulations are in place? Owners will need to know what standard their properties Amendment 20RA seeks to take on board comments must be brought up to. It may be a missed opportunity made last week on the issue of “shall”and “must”—that if we just look at the golden rule, which is arbitrary the Minister “must” make energy efficiency regulations. and will change over time—it is guidance more than As the clause stands, it pushes back any intervention anything else—and in two or five years find that those on private rented stock. I am not clear about when the properties are still rated F and G because the work timescale will start. I know when the review will start that has been undertaken has not been to the required and how long it will roughly take, but we will not see level. any regulations in place until 2015. It is difficult to ascertain when the regulations will become effective The Committee on Climate Change has recommended and when that will come into play. We are talking to the Government that there should be mandatory about beyond the next election—four or five years energy efficiency standards in the private rented sector. away—before we see any significant improvements in I do not often quote the Mayor of London, Boris the private rented stock. Johnson, in support of proposals that I am putting forward. He stated: One of my concerns is that that does not create the “I agree that requiring landlords to meet energy efficiency certainty for those involved to prepare to undertake standards when properties are re-let could be an important tool in the necessary work. At this stage, landlords do not improving the energy efficiency of the private rented sector in know what is required of them. They do not know if London. How these standards are communicated and enforced and when, or to what level, they might be required to would be key to their success”. undertake work. In an earlier debate, the Minister There is a lot of sympathy for the view that landlords talked about giving clarity to the private rented sector, should know what is expected of them before they but these regulation-making powers do the exact opposite. start on the process. It will be difficult for them to They give very little clarity because of the conditionality embark on it if there are no changes to the Bill before on them. it passes into legislation. I am not clear what message If the industry is to meet the needs of the Green that would send to landlords. Will they think, “This Deal, it needs clarity, probably on the scale of the may happen later” or, “There will be changes. I should take-up, although I appreciate that that will not be prepare for them now. What can I do?”? The issue is easy at first. The industry will need to know what about giving certainty to landlords about whether GC 155 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 156 they need to take action and, if they are to take action, That is not the bit that concerns me. It is that we what level of action they should take. The proposals seem to think that we should be giving local authorities point in the right direction, but are rather weak. If we powers to compel landlords to take action, but they are to see this critical mass, certainty must be given to are landlords themselves very often. I am quite happy those who rent out properties, to those who pay to that they should be compelled to take action for rent them and to local government. themselves, but I thought that the essence of the Bill I will speak briefly to Amendment 20YA. I tabled was that this was an arrangement essentially between this as a question to the Minister because I was the consumer of energy and the energy supplier. If that confused. The amendment refers to Clause 38. I looked is the case, I am very concerned about these amendments for an explanation of what it meant in the Explanatory because they seem to imply something else. Notes, which state that, I am anxious to see homes having their energy “the Secretary of State could provide that a landlord is not efficiency improved as soon and as rapidly as possible. required … to make improvements if he cannot obtain consent However, it seems to me that the process suggested, which is required to be given by his freeholder”— and which I thought lay behind this Bill, would be that is understandable— likely to achieve that faster than any action implying “or if the property is likely to be worth less as a result of the that compulsion might come from somewhere else improvements being installed”. would be likely to do. I cannot envisage what improvements to energy efficiency in the home would make the property worth less. Who Earl Cathcart: My Lords, I have not spoken on this would make the judgment that the property is worth chapter before but I welcome provisions in the private less? This could be a get-out clause for the landlord to rented sector. I am not attacking the noble Baroness, say, “If I do that, I won’t get so much rent in” or, “If I Lady Smith, but I recall it being said that nothing do that, I couldn’t sell it”. Will the judgment be made would happen in the private rented sector until 2015 on rental income or the price that the property would when the regulations can come in. That is assuming fetch if it were sold? It would be helpful if the Minister that landlords do not allow all this to happen, as my would give us more information. noble friend said. There are many landlords and, as the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, said, not all of them are unscrupulous. I like to think that a lot of good landlords Lord Dixon-Smith: I feel compelled to intervene will want their tenants to use these provisions because, because I am not quite sure whether we are going in as my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith said, it will the direction in which this Bill should be aimed. I go increase the value of the property; it will make the right back to Clause 1(2), tenant warmer; it will increase the well-being of the “An energy plan is an arrangement made by the occupier or tenants; and it will make them want to stay longer. A owner of a property for a person to make energy efficiency lot of landlords and tenants will want to do this deal improvements to the property”. well before regulations have to come into place. The occupier of a property may well be the tenant. We have made a great deal of the efficiency or inefficiency I want to play devil’s advocate here, following what my of certain landlords. They do not just occur, sadly, in noble friend Lady Noakes said in her Amendment 20M, the private sector; there are good and bad landlords which talked about, in the public sector. There are good and bad tenants in “consideration of the willingness of tenants”. both sectors. The essence of this scheme, however, was Clause 37(2) requires local authorities to issue notices that if the landlord did not want to do something the to the landlords of each domestic private rented property, tenant could. I thought that the essence of the scheme “(c) which falls below such level of energy efficiency … as is was that it was voluntary but if I listened to my noble provided for by the regulations”. friend Lady Maddock correctly, and I am not sure Subsection (3) states: that I did, she seemed to be thinking that perhaps local “The notice is one requiring the landlord to make to the authorities should be in a position to compel. property such relevant energy efficiency improvements as are identified by the notice”. I am not sure I agree with that because that is not I might be splitting hairs, but should not subsection (3) within the original purpose of the Bill. But maybe read: I have misunderstood the Bill or maybe I have misunderstood the noble Baroness. I am not sure “The notice is one requiring the landlord”, which; I am becoming rather confused. That is why I to allow, am speaking. I thought that this Bill was designed to “such relevant energy efficiency improvements”, give the property occupier—if the owner happened to be made to the property, to be there, that would be fine and good—the right to “as are identified by the notice”? take action which is in his own interest. If that is so, it My thinking is that it could be the tenant who wants is perfectly true that he would probably have to get the this done and the landlord who is dragging his heels, consent of his landlord because almost all tenancy and that therefore one needs this notice to make sure agreements that I have seen say that any alterations to that the landlord allows the tenant to sign up to the the property must be made with the consent of the Green Deal. landlord. I cannot conceive, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, has said, that any landlord is 6.30 pm ever going to refuse to have this sort of action taken in I have three questions on this clause. First, is the a property in their ownership. She is absolutely correct notice issued because tenants want to sign up to to say that action like this must enhance the value of the Green Deal but the landlord is dragging his heels? the property one way or another. If that is the case, that is fine. Or, secondly, is the GC 157 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 158

[EARL CATHCART] are trying to plot a pragmatic and sensitive course notice issued because the property falls below the here. I believe that the provisions are drafted to achieve standard set out in subsection (2)(c) as provided for in this balance. the regulations? I have a slight concern about this Amendment 20YA would remove an important because, as my noble friend Lady Maddock was saying, safeguard for property owners. While we do not believe it is about local authorities assessing which properties that improving a property’s energy performance will need to have this sort of work done on them and then result in a negative impact on its value, it is only right making landlords do it. Where are the tenants in all and proper that we provide owners with that reassurance. that? No one has asked them and there is no provision I agree with my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith and for their agreement. This is where Amendment 20M the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that it is unlikely. tabled by my noble friend Lady Noakes comes in, There could be solid wall installations, for example, which would insert a provision for, which do not enhance the value of an old property, “a consideration of the willingness of tenants”. but that would be pretty rare. Tenants are absolutely vital in this because if they do Amendment 20U proposes a national or local register not want to sign the contract, there will be no Green of domestic private rented properties. On 10 June, the Deal and the thing will not work. My third question Housing Minister stated that the Government have no follows on from there: what happens when a notice is plans to create a national register of landlords, although issued and the property is vacant? Does the landlord he will keep that position under review. I am, however, sign up to the Green Deal, and how does the golden aware that local authorities are initiating local lists of rule fit in? I cannot get my head around that one and I this type of property where they deem that such lists think it needs a little further consideration. are of benefit in their areas. My noble friend Lord As the Bill is written, it assumes that tenants are Dixon-Smith made the good point that some landlords going to sign up to these regulations, but they may not are the local authorities. want to do so because, say, they are moving in two Amendment 20RA would provide that the Secretary months’ time. A tenant may say, “I am not signing a of State must make regulations requiring local authorities contract. I am not signing anything”. We need something to issue a notice to landlords of domestic private rented included here about the tenant. properties requiring them to make such improvements On a slightly different point, if a landlord has a as are identified in the notice. If regulation is required, number of properties and wants to do the Green Deal it is our intention clearly to set out provisions requiring programme with all his tenants, what if a few of them local authorities to issue a notice to landlords requiring refuse to do it? Are there going to be regulations them to make the necessary improvements. Finally, saying that a tenant must sign up to the Green Deal? I Amendment 20W would appear to create an incorrect presume, however, that you cannot force him to sign a cross-reference. It proposes deleting “subsection (5)” contract. We have provisions that put the onus on the and inserting “subsection (6)”. I hope that that acts as landlord to sign up to the Green Deal, but absolutely an explanation. nothing for the tenant. If a good landlord—there are I was asked about whether it is the landlord who good landlords—wants to do the Green Deal on all must make improvements to a property.Under Clause 37, his properties, he could be held up in a row of terraced the requirement is on the landlord, but tenants can houses by two tenants saying, “No, I am not going to request that the landlord take action. I was asked: do that”, in which case the deal might fall through. what if the property is vacant? That is not covered by a definition. No action is required until the property is re-let, after which the action will take place. In summing Lord Marland: My Lords, I am grateful for these up, I would invite my noble friend Lady Maddock to amendments, which aim to set a minimum energy withdraw her amendment. Her amendments are extremely efficiency standard for the private rented sector. As a valuable and I am very grateful to her for presenting result, Amendments 20R, 20S, 20T and 20V would set them to us. a minimum energy efficiency level of EPC band E for the domestic private rented sector. I hope that this deals with one of the questions asked by the noble Baroness Noakes: Before the noble Baroness, Lady Baroness, Lady Smith. Amendment 20X would require Maddock, decides what to do with her amendment, the Secretary of State to make at least one increase to perhaps I may follow up a point made by my noble this minimum standard between 2016 and 2019. The friend Lord Cathcart in relation to tenants. I do not EPC is a key factor in this. understand the position. Since my noble friend laid it First, I can reassure the House that our provisions out so clearly, I recall some of the debates that left me in Clause 37 already target the worst performing properties. with a slightly foggy view when we debated this earlier. Our intention is similar to that of the amendment—that The local authority can require an energy efficiency properties below a band E rating would be targeted improvement under the terms of the regulations. An under the local authority enforcement powers. Secondly, energy efficiency improvement is one which is either and most importantly, we are achieving this without paid for by the Green Deal or is free under the energy setting a minimum standard that could be viewed as a company’s obligations. Let us assume that it is not free barrier to new landlords entering the market. That is but must be funded by the Green Deal. Let us suppose very important. The private rented sector is an increasingly that the tenant says: “I do not want it. I am the bill important part of responding to our housing challenge. payer and I do not want this Green Deal because I do Yet evidence suggests that there is currently a shortage not understand all this stuff about getting extra bills of supply, which is illustrated by increasing rents. We and about energy efficiency—it is too complicated”. GC 159 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 160

This is the point I was trying to make earlier about Lord Deben: Would the Minister not agree that tenants having a different perspective on life, with there is a difficult issue here? We have to do things in different timescales. What happens then? this uncomfortable way because we could not have a situation where the landlord puts pressure on the tenant to refuse the Green Deal in order that he Lord Marland: The first tenant has to agree to the himself can claim that he was therefore not subject to Green Deal. If he or she does not, it will not be the local authority’s rules. It has to be a little uncomfortable installed. If he or she does, it will be part of the because we know there are landlords who will bring ongoing tenancy agreement. As to the desire to have pressure on their tenants to do a number of things, the Green Deal installed, the initiator is the first and it would be very difficult to stop this. Therefore, tenant. we must accept that this is an uneasy but reasonable compromise. Baroness Noakes: That is what I hoped the Minister would say. Can he then explain to me what happens in relation to the local authority’s powers, and whether a Lord Marland: I am very grateful to the noble Lord. landlord who is not in compliance with his obligations The situation is not ideal, but we have to live in a is therefore subject to the sanctions that are covered by regulatory framework and the landlord-tenant framework Clause 39? The local authority issues the regulations; that exists. In an ideal world, we would insist that the landlord says, “I will do it, I will get this Green everyone did this at a particular time, but the world is Deal”. The tenant then says no, so the energy efficiency not ideal so we are going as close as we can to of the property is not improved. Is that landlord, achieving that. I think that the noble Baroness makes because of the tenant’s action, in non-compliance a very valid point. When we review this, we will see with his obligations and therefore subject to the penalty whether there are other nudges or encouragements clauses? that we can make in respect of landlords.

Lord Marland: The noble Baroness hits on an 6.45 pm important point. It is that awkward period when the Baroness Smith of Basildon: The point made by the landlord is under an obligation to achieve a minimal noble Lord, Lord Deben, relates to issues raised by EPC banding and is continuing to let the property. It is amendments that we discussed in the previous Committee therefore incumbent upon the local authority to put meeting about consent being given or withheld reasonably pressure on the landlord to deliver a property that or unreasonably. The issue was whether a landlord or reaches that banding. I totally accept that, if you have tenant was behaving unreasonably or reasonably. It a tenant who does not want the improvements, there is might help the Minister to reflect on the amendments a period of time when pressures are brought to bear. If that we put forward the other day. they do not work, the landlord may have to withdraw I seek clarification on a couple of points. The his property from the market and the tenant might Minister referred to the lists that are held by local have to find something elsewhere. authorities, but those are held very much on an ad hoc basis. It would be preferable, as far as concerns the Baroness Noakes: It is my understanding that you responsibilities placed on local authorities by the cannot just throw tenants out nowadays; it is a rather legislation, if such matters were made more formal more complicated process. and uniform, so that local authorities know what is expected of them and so that landlords, too, will know what information they are expected to provide to local Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, my noble friend has authorities. The Minister also said that Clause 37 a serious point. If the tenant seriously objects, it is provides that the worst performing properties will be completely wrong to hold the landlord responsible for the first to be improved. I would be grateful if he could that individual decision. It may be uncomfortable, but clarify or explain that, as I do not understand where I that is the reality.Otherwise, we have a form of compulsion will find that in the legislation or how it can be that is wholly inappropriate. guaranteed. My response earlier to the comments of the noble Lord Marland: The point that I am making is that Earl, Lord Cathcart, was perhaps badly worded. I was the landlord, if he has a tenant who will not agree, will not at any stage trying to suggest that there are not continue the tenancy. When the tenancy changes, the landlords who at this moment are taking good energy landlord will have to change his plans. No one can efficiency measures in the homes that they rent out. I force a tenant out, unless it is done legally—and, as am sure that all noble Lords who have declared an the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, says, tenants are interest as landlords will rush home to ensure that strongly protected. But what would one do? One cannot energy efficiency measures are put in place immediately. force people into this Green Deal; one has to encourage I was trying to argue from the landlord’s point of them. The Green Deal is a market-led product. We are view. There are no guarantees for landlords that these saying that once the tenancy ends, the new tenant will regulations will ever come into effect because of their have to have the Green Deal. I am afraid that that is as conditionality on the review. There is no guarantee of far as we can legitimately go at this stage. No doubt any substantial change, whereas we need substantial during the review we will find out whether this has change across an enormous number of properties, operated voluntarily or whether we need to find other given that the Residential Landlords Association estimates ways to encourage people. that 40 per cent of properties were built prior to 1919 GC 161 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 162

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] said, when we are looking at some of these very low and some of those will be the hardest properties to rated properties, we are not talking about a lot of treat. Many landlords will be waiting to see what will money to improve them one step up to the next band. happen. Good landlords will rush to undertake the I suggested some figures at the beginning and the work, and some have done so already. However, because noble Baroness, Lady Smith, repeated some of them. there is no guarantee for landlords that there will be When we discuss this, I think that people are not really regulations, it will be very difficult for them—many looking at what these properties are like. We may be are working on a budget for the properties that they talking about insulation and draught proofing, so own—to guarantee that they will be able to do the some measures will involve quite low amounts of work, because they are not sure whether the regulations money. Therefore, in persuading tenants to improve will come into play. the property’s rating, it may not be very much extra My final point is that I asked a question on that they will be asked to contribute. Amendment 20YA, but I think that the Minister was I am not quite clear what the Minister was saying in unable to respond at the time. his answers to my amendments. I think that he was saying, “Yes, we understand all of this, and when we Lord Marland: The noble Baroness raises several eventually get around to making regulations, we might questions. It is not for this Committee to prescribe to do something a bit like what you are suggesting”. I am local authorities what they should be doing. I hope not sure whether that is what he was saying, but I will that this Bill is one that local authorities can buy in to. look at what is in the record. Perhaps at some point we That is a subject for the DCLG. We are committed to can have a discussion about this. If we are keen to get focusing on the worst performing properties because local authorities and landlords working together to we are committed to energy efficiency, and if we can improve properties, we need a little more than is on the attack the lower-performing properties, we will do it. face of the Bill at the moment. Clearly, we have a governor in place—the EPC, which we are reviewing at the moment—which will establish the level that properties must come up to. We will Lord Marland: Would the noble Baroness allow me focus on the worst performers. We can use only the to reply? What I am saying is that we must not tools that are available in a market-driven product. It prescribe regulation now for the private rented sector. would be totally wrong for us sitting here to prescribe This whole Bill is about trying to enable the sector to regulations at this point for those in the sector who are pick up the Green Deal and run with it. If we start being recalcitrant or not performing. That is the point saying, “If you don’t run with it, we’ll do this, that and of the review, which will take place as we have discussed. the next thing”, we will be making a rod for our own We will then consider what regulations, if any, are back. That is the whole point. I think we are agreed on needed to push this thing forward. this particular subject of a review—an early review—and then a second review to work out what the dynamics On Amendment 20YA, which the noble Baroness are. I hope that answers her question; but, as always, I spoke to, and on her question who makes the judgment am very happy to extend the invitation to discuss the about the property’s energy performance, the judgment matter further outside the room. will come from the EPC, which defines performance. That is there in black and white on every home. Baroness Maddock: My Lords, the offer of further Baroness Smith of Basildon: I think that the Minister discussions might be helpful, because I think that, by has misunderstood the point in my amendment, which using some of the legislation that we have already got refers not to energy performance but to the impact on and by being a bit clearer about the dates when the price of the property. Indeed, the Explanatory regulations and so on might come into effect, we Notes refer to the possibility of an exemption, might be able to get landlords to start taking action “if the property is likely to be worth less as a result of the earlier. We may be able to explore that between now improvements being installed”. and Report stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to Who will make that judgment? That is not a matter for withdraw my amendment. the EPC, which deals with energy efficiency. Amendment 20R withdrawn. Lord Marland: With all due respect, I think that I answered that. I said that it is very unlikely that there Amendments 20RA to 20T not moved. will be negative value, but the market makes the judgment if something has gone down in value. If you put a The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn): property on the market or to rent, the market determines I understand that Amendments 20TA to 20Y are not whether its value has gone down. That is how every moved. The question is that Clause 37 stand part of price is achieved. I hope that that answers the noble the Bill— Baroness—she is looking a little bit negative. I cannot imagine that we can set up a system that prescribes that a property is worth this or that amount; the Baroness Smith of Basildon: Amendment 20TA, an market determines that. amendment to Clause 37, has not yet been moved.

Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I am grateful to the The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I thought it Minister for his reply and to other noble Lords who was not moved. According to my list, it should have have taken part in the debate on this group of been debated in the previous group. However, we will amendments. As the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, now debate Amendment 20TA. GC 163 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 164

against lazy agents who do not get round to doing the Amendment 20TA things that they ought to do on behalf of their landlords and on behalf of the tenants who live in those properties. Moved by Baroness Smith of Basildon 20TA: Clause 37, page 23, line 36, at end insert— 7pm “( ) The Secretary of State must make regulations for the The Deputy Chairman of Committees: I wonder if purpose of securing that a landlord of a domestic PR property of the noble Lord could clarify for the Committee which the type mentioned in subsection (2) who has failed to comply amendment he is speaking to, because I do not have with a notice issued under subsection (3) may not let the property until the landlord has complied with that notice.” any in my grouping. Lord Best: I am speaking to the two amendments Baroness Smith of Basildon: I thank the Committee. groupedwithAmendment20TA;namely,Amendments21ZA This is a probing amendment to look at the powers of and 21ZB. Further, I think we will probably be able to local authorities regarding sanctions and the non-letting embrace a bit of 21ZC. of properties where landlords have failed to make the These two proposed new clauses have been prepared required energy efficiency improvements. Clearly, landlords by the Association for the Conservation of Energy, need to be given a reasonable length of time to comply, which represents 30 organisations in this field, and and that must be built into the notice. We should look Friends of the Earth. They are trying to avoid the at this in the light of later clauses. pitfalls of the Green Deal, of which I am a tremendous Imposing a fine on a landlord who has failed to supporter, proving to be a bit of a wet blanket for comply is not always the best way to proceed. If a some parts of the private rented sector. They establish landlord is fined for not complying with energy efficiency a minimum standard of energy efficiency at band E on improvements, he has to recoup the money he has the energy performance scale, which we suspect is been fined and the energy efficiency of the property where the Government are going in any case, for all will not be improved. The council could seek to undertake properties that are let from 2016. To put it in the the work and put a charge on the landlord through the negative, this would make it illegal to let a property Green Deal, through rent or by other means. It seems after 2016 if it does not accord with the minimum to me that where a landlord does not comply, it is standard set at band E, which is a pretty modest level necessary to make a range of compliance tools available but one that affects some 350,000 properties in the to local authorities, giving them a number of options private rented sector. As we all know, the private to take up depending on the circumstances. I am rented sector has a much higher number of properties rather reluctant to follow the line of fining landlords that are in need of bringing up to new standards. or seeking to remove properties from letting as the Let me give the reasons why this might be a good first course of action. Every case has to be looked at plan. Knowing that this legal obligation will kick in in on its merits. five years’ time would mean that landlords are likely to As I have said, this is a probing amendment to look gear up now to make sure that their properties meet at what the Minister envisages in this regard. What the standard. Their agents will also know that it is kind of tools does he consider could be made available coming, so they can prepare for this as a certainty in to local authorities to ensure that energy efficiency the future. This follows the same approach that measures are implemented within a reasonable and Government have already determined for commercial appropriate timescale? I beg to move. properties, where a minimum standard will apply. Properties that are rated only F and G are in fact classified as a health hazard, a category one risk, Lord Best: I am not sure that the new clauses I have under the housing health and safety rating system. proposed to come before Clause 40 fit terribly well at Action to enforce that measure, however, has proved this point, but since they have been grouped with to be difficult. Local authorities have other fish to fry, Amendment 20TA, perhaps I may now speak to them. they often do not have enough environmental health I have a feeling that may well be familiar to noble officers to go round and there are other priorities. This Lords. I might have wasted my Sunday preparing a would address the health hazards of people, often lengthy speech because the debate up to this point has on low incomes and vulnerable, who are prone to already covered much of what these proposed new hypothermia and winter deaths in these low-energy clauses seek to address. The point of them is to add a rated properties. It does not put the onus on the few more teeth to the regulatory process and to try to tenant, and indeed it is unrealistic to expect tenants in ensure that the difficulties in the private rented sector all cases to be bold enough to go through the hassle of that we have been discussing are dealt with by reaching requiring their landlord to do something. We should all landlords. remember that many tenants have short-term tenancies. I ought to add a point that has not yet arisen. It is They do not have security of tenure and, if they fall often necessary to reach the agents of private landlords. out badly with their landlord, the tenancy may not be Some 60 per cent of homes in the private rented sector renewed. It is better if there is a regulation outside of are managed by managing and letting agents rather the landlord-tenant relationship to do this. than directly by landlords themselves. I declare an Landlords, and as I mentioned in 60 per cent of interest as chairman of the council of the Property cases their agents, are familiar with the gas safety Ombudsman that receives the complaints about managing certificate. The new regime that requires you to meet agents. Although I can assure you that most agents do an energy performance certificate standard is just the a very good job, there needs to be some protection same as the gas safety certificate. Landlords have all GC 165 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 166

[LORD BEST] a great deal of sympathy for what the noble Lord is got used to it. Tedious as it may seem, you have to go saying. Perhaps we can also discuss between the through the inspection process and the property has to Committee and Report stages whether there is some meet the gas safety requirement. This is a health and merit in doing more to encourage the private rented safety matter as well, so they would have to meet the sector and to help local authorities with this work. I energy requirement on that same pattern. This is classified support the noble Lord, Lord Best, and I hope the as moving into regulation, but it is fairly light-touch Minister can at least agree to discussions on the detailed bearing in mind that band E is a pretty low level to proposals that have been put forward. reach, and it is five years away, giving plenty of time for people to get there. Lord Marland: I am very grateful to the noble Lord, It gives local authorities a specific measure and a Lord Best, and for the support expressed by my noble clear duty. They know where they stand and they can friend Lady Maddock. The noble Lord spent a get on with it. These clauses would be a helpful constructive Sunday writing his excellent speech because addition to the Bill. They also put on the Secretary of it has given us a good picture of what is going on in State the duty to take the minimum standard up the sector. In many ways I wish he had spoken earlier, another notch by 2020, since band E still represents a because he would have set the scene nicely for some of very basic bottom line. the debates today, as indeed he did at Second Reading. The second proposed new clause here puts some Amendments 21ZB and 21ZB would insert two constraints on the requirement to meet a minimum new clauses setting a minimum energy efficiency standard. standard over the next five years or face a fine of up to However, they go further in that they would prevent £10,000 if it is ignored. These constraints are that the renting of properties that do not meet the minimum there must be exceptions where the landlord can show standard. They would also allow for the Secretary of that achieving the minimum standard is impractical; it State to suspend regulations with any local authority offends against the golden rule. The tenant may refuse area if it is found that regulations are having an to have the works done, although there is still a question adverse effect on supply. Amendment 20TA would mark in my mind following the point made by the also prevent a landlord letting a property if a notice noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, as to what happens when had been served by a local authority but not complied there is a group of tenants of which all but one are with. keen to see energy efficiency measures in their block of The amendments raise an interesting proposition: flats or converted house, and one tenant refuses. There that of using a minimum standard to improve performance may be more to be said on that, but where the single in the sector and preventing properties that do not tenant of a single property refuses to have the works meet this new standard from being let. I read them done or because the changes would reduce the value of with interest and welcome their intention to create a the property—these circumstances would be exceptions level playing field in terms of energy efficiency within and the obligation would not apply. the sector. However, I cannot accept the proposals for Secondly, there would need to be a duty placed two reasons. First, I reassure the Committee that the upon the Secretary of State to establish an appeals provisions as currently drafted in Clause 37 already process to ensure that all was fair and proper. Thirdly, target the worst performing properties. Secondly, and if in a particular local authority area there is evidence most important, we will achieve this without setting that the new requirement is leading to a shortage of minimum standards, other than those that have been rented properties, which frankly is an unlikely event, referenced, which could be viewed as a barrier to new the Secretary of State could then suspend the minimum landlords entering the market. We are trying to plot a standard for that area. This contingency seems better pragmatic and sensitive course. than a blanket suspension across the whole country on Amendment 21ZB would give powers to the Secretary the basis that the number of homes to rent had fallen of State to suspend minimum standard regulations in in one or two specific places, as it would target the local authority areas where they could be shown to be places where it happens. impacting adversely on the supply of properties available. These amendments seek to ensure that for the private As I have outlined, it is not our intention to impact on rented sector the Green Deal is not a damp squib. the market; in fact, it is the opposite. We want to create They make it pretty certain that the very worst properties a more attractive rental market for improved properties. will be tackled within the next five years. Landlords The review already creates a safeguard. It will take a will know where they stand, and voluntary action over very careful look at the impact of potential regulation the years ahead seems highly likely. I was pleased to on the rental market across the country. note that the thinking behind these amendments is I turn to the issue of timing, which we have covered endorsed by the Government’s fuel poverty advisory quite frequently. Amendment 21ZA proposes that group, by the Committee on Climate Change and by regulations, if any, be made no later than 1 January the many MPs who signed the Early Day Motion. I 2016. The noble Lord, Lord Best, has already referred was also going to quote the Mayor of London, but the to that. I hope that this explains the Government’s noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, has already position. I am extremely grateful for the very valuable done that for me. input, but I hope that these amendments will not be pressed. Baroness Maddock: My Lords, my name is attached to the amendments to which the noble Lord, Lord Lord Best: My Lords, I will address the point that Best, has just spoken. I do not intend to say much. It is the Government are very keen for there to be no clear from the amendments I moved earlier that I have barrier to the entry of new landlords into the market. GC 167 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 168

It is improbable that people will enter at the level of Clause 39 : Sanctions for the purposes of domestic the worst properties in the worst conditions. The buy-to-let energy efficiency regulations: England and Wales market has become an extraordinary phenomenon. More than 1 million properties have been acquired on a buy-to-let basis. The typical profile of these properties Amendment 20Z is that they cost around £100,000 to £110,000, are Moved by Baroness Maddock brand new and are in a block of flats built by a 20Z: Clause 39, page 25, line 7, leave out “may” and insert housebuilder. The energy rating for these properties is “shall” pretty good. One would not be setting a big barrier if one prevented the entry into the market of landlords who buy the most rubbishy properties on the market. Baroness Maddock: My Lords, I shall speak also to It might be a good idea if they were required, before Amendments 20AA and 20AB. I will be very brief they let them, to bring them up at least to band E as a because I believe I have covered quite a lot of this. We basic level. With those provisos, we live to debate this also have an amendment coming up later which is another day. a little similar to amendments that I am speaking to here. I have already discussed the fact that I am Baroness Smith of Basildon: I am grateful for the concerned that we do not have a very good timetable Minister’s comments, but I am not sure that he answered for the regulations. Nevertheless, the Bill allows for any of the points that I raised. I am still seeking some regulations to be made to deal with the worst guidance from him about the non-letting of a property properties, and that is what I have been assuming in where a landlord has failed to make the required some of my amendments. However, the Bill says that energy efficiency improvements. I think that the Minister the Secretary of State “may”, and I have asked that it was referring to Clause 37(2)(c) when he said that the be “must”. If I had been well tutored by the noble legislation provided that regulation should apply first Baroness, Lady Noakes, it would be “must”—I have to the worst performing energy efficiency homes. It put “shall”, but I think we all know what I mean, so let defines a property in this category as one that, us leave it at that for now and not have a long discussion “falls below such level of energy efficiency … as is provided for by about may, shall and must. the regulations”. The Minister has not made it clear, and we do not yet I have already indicated that I think that if landlords know, what that level will be, although there has been are not complying with the regulations for the very a lot of guidance to the Committee that it should not worst properties—my noble friend Lord Best said this be below band E. What happens when the landlord in speaking to other amendments—and if they are not does not meet that standard? At what level would the letting these properties which, frankly, probably none local authority be able to tell the landlord not to re-let of us in this Room would want to live in, then we need the property? That was the point that I was probing to be a bit clearer about how and when we are going to and that the Minister has not yet answered. act. At the moment, under the housing health and safety rating system, where there are health hazards, 7.15 pm the local authorities can go in, do the work and charge Lord Marland: I think I have answered that point, people for them. It is a far more effective way than and I answered it on the previous batch of amendments. fining people, because if we fine people, as I said, the There is a guideline of EPC band E. The noble Baroness work does not actually get done. It is clear that the asked what the guideline is; that is it, and I have said it Minister could bring in regulations in this legislation on a number of occasions. It is incumbent upon the and the penalty put forward on the face of the Bill is local authority, because of not only its own carbon £5,000. I have suggested that we make it £10,000, but it targets but its authority targets, to ensure that that is clear from my Amendment 20AA that I prefer that property delivers that standard. Therefore it will use we have local authorities going in and doing the work what powers the local authority has and what power rather than fining, because then you actually get it the Local Government Association decides to use to done. At this stage in proceedings, I will not say make them fulfil their own carbon commitments. As I anything else, and I beg to move. said on the previous group of amendments, it is not for us to be prescriptive to the local authority, other than in respect of the broader picture of what we are Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I get the impression trying to achieve and what the Government are trying that we are coming up against the problem of balance to achieve. It is up to the local authority to achieve its that I referred to in a speech made some hours ago. It carbon reduction targets and its home improvement is now getting to the point where, if these amendments targets. are accepted, the Bill will expect local authorities to take fairly drastic enforcement action. The noble Lord, Amendment 20TA withdrawn. Lord Best, will know much more about this than I do, but I have always been given to understand that local Amendments 20U to 20Y not moved. authorities already have quite substantial powers under Clause 37 agreed. the housing health and safety rating system, which can be used to tackle houses where tenants suffer Clause 38 : Further provision about domestic energy excess cold and, no doubt, other factors. But the real efficiency regulations: England and Wales problem is that these powers are very rarely used. The Amendment 20YA not moved. noble Lord, Lord Best, made the point that local authorities have many other duties, that they do not Clause 38 agreed. have enough environmental health officers, and that GC 169 Energy Bill [HL][LORDS] Energy Bill [HL] GC 170

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] the community. That is the main driver. The issue with the stringencies under which they now have to covered by the amendments is the provision of an operate, it is not expected that they will be in a element of underpinning, which I subscribe to. position to recruit more. Faced with pressures on resources and competing priorities, I wonder where Lord Marland: I am grateful to my noble friend the sense is in landing them with still more duties. Lady Maddock for putting forward the amendment. Indeed, one has to ask what the probability is of such Obviously it has considerable merit. The greater the new duties being enforced. fine, the greater the determination we show to achieve There is no point in substantially increasing penalties what we set out. On this occasion, contrary to the last, and in introducing other measures that enable local I agree with my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding— authorities to take over houses, improve them and generally I agree totally with the noble Lord—that then charge the landlord, if no one is going to enforce £5,000 is a reasonable limit. It is a considerable amount them. Increasing the fine from £5,000 to £10,000 will of money that is in line with existing limits for the do absolutely nothing if the notices are not enforced. I amounts that local authorities can fine landlords for will sound a note of caution on this. We should not letting out substandard and hazardous accommodation. expect local authorities, over the next few years, to On that basis, and with due respect, I invite the noble take substantial action when they are well known for Baroness to withdraw her amendment. As she rightly not using the powers that they already have under the says, we have spoken to other amendments covering system that I have just mentioned. Again, I am just various parts of the Bill, and no doubt we will in sounding a note of caution and I hope that the Minister future as well. will look at some of these proposals with a fairly cold and analytical eye to assess whether they will improve Baroness Maddock: My Lords, as I was only speaking the Bill and increase the chance of the objectives that to that amendment, I cannot withdraw it. However, I we all support being achieved, or whether this will be can withdraw Amendment 20Z that led this group. the point at which landlords simply throw up their Given the discussions that we have had, I am prepared hands and say, “Blow the lot of you, we are not going to do that. However, in doing so, I will say that it to re-let”. would be helpful to have some discussion about how we can encourage landlords to improve their properties, Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I have not the particularly the very bad ones—I hope that that will slightest doubt but that the Government will apply a happen—and about how we can involve local authorities. cold and analytical eye to these issues, because that is I am particularly keen on local authorities because of their role. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, some of the powers that they have under other legislation, says, and we all know that certain powers are more which I will not mention again by name. That is one honoured in the breach than in their exercise. But, of reason why I am keen to see them involved. I beg leave course, the powers underpin the position of the local to withdraw Amendment 20Z. authority. He is absolutely right to say that local authorities do not often exercise their powers: but if Amendment 20Z withdrawn. they did not exist at all, standards would conceivably be a good deal lower, because everyone would know Amendment 20AA not moved. that if minimal standards were not observed, the local authority would not be able to take action. Amendment 20AAA These amendments commend themselves because they introduce a floor to the position. They say, basically, Moved by Lord Grantchester that these are the powers that local authorities will 20AAA: Clause 39, page 25, line 16, at end insert— enjoy. They may not have to exercise them often, but if “( ) Provision falling within subsection (1) may also include they do not exist, the Minister will have to show how the power to carry out improvement works in default of the enforcement can effectively take place. It seems to me landlord, recovering all reasonable costs necessary for undertaking that these amendments are a constructive way of the work.” underpinning the Bill with an effective sanction. Given that, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is on Lord Grantchester: I apologise for the delay; the somewhat dangerous ground if he says that the issue groupings are a little confusing. I am reminded during of enforcement depends on the level of resources at these debates of the words of the noble Lord, Lord your disposal, and therefore underperformance may Jenkin, who said that we were entering a very complex be looked at in those terms. If that were translated to area. One comes to the Grand Committee thinking the police under the present cuts, the Government that one understands everything, but as the debate would be in serious trouble. One has to look carefully moves forward one is often prompted to think that we at the issue of what level of resources is available, but are questioning at cross-purposes. On other occasions, what is important is that it is only through local one thinks that one knows all about it when a question authority enforcement that certain minimum standards is suddenly asked that makes one think, “Have I really with regard to this legislation can be achieved. We understood it?”. In proposing Amendment 20AAA, I should seek to guarantee that such powers exist. The wonder whether I have really understood it because I degree of enforcement will depend on resources, on am confused as to why this amendment is not also will and on a general perception of the value of the grouped with Amendment 20AA, but there are quite a legislation. We have said all along that the legislation few areas in which that amendment could have had an depends not on compulsion but on the engagement of effect. The amendment is rather simple, but it touches GC 171 Energy Bill [HL][24 JANUARY 2011] Energy Bill [HL] GC 172 on three serious areas which we have already debated he would be required to undertake the improvements and which I shall pick up on as I go through my as part of the Green Deal. The costs arising would not remarks. land on the local authority. The tenant that was proving to be the roadblock would be entered under the Green 7.30 pm Deal and would make payments under that deal. I Amendment 20AAA takes issue with Clause 39 think that this provision is set out in Clause 37. where it refers to landlords. What I am referring to Lord Teverson: My Lords, I admit that I do not here could happen in the first instance where there are understand this amendment. I do not understand extra costs involved, a point also touched on by what it does. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, Amendment 20AA. I refer to where a local authority, for his explanation, but I do not see how it relates to as the landlord, may face some extra costs of which multiple tenancies. I apologise and will leave it at that. there is no mention in the legislation and the regulations, and could possibly not be mentioned; that is, the Baroness Northover: My Lords, I am very grateful question of fees. to noble Lords for their amendments to Clause 39. The second area I wish to draw to the Minister’s Amendment 20AAA would give local authorities the attention for clarification has also been touched on by power to carry out improvement works if the landlord the noble Earl, Lord Cathcart, when he questioned defaults, and to recover all reasonable costs for undertaking what would happen if a bill payer refused to take part work. We are not convinced that it is appropriate to in a Green Deal, especially when that bill payer is only grant such powers. Local authorities already have the one among a group of tenancies or properties. He power under the Housing Act 2004 to carry out works would then hold up the application for the Green Deal and recover costs in cases where there is an immediate by refusing. What we have in mind is that perhaps and serious threat to health and safety. We are not other tenants could group together and say that the convinced that any further power is appropriate or one tenant has unreasonably withheld his consent, proportionate. which affects the rest of the group. In that situation, I will address the point about a tenant dissenting. could that individual tenant be overruled? That is also Sitting tenants will not be forced to take on a Green included in this provision. Deal, and secondary legislation will set out how this The third situation is where there is a mix of landlords affects landlords’ obligations under any PRS regulations. and tenants within a property and it is difficult to I hope that the noble Lord will be happy to withdraw identify all the tenants involved. That may bring up the amendment. further issues where fees and applications need to be Lord Grantchester: I am of course grateful for the made. As my noble friend Lord O’Neill and the noble questions on this matter, especially from the noble Lord, Lord Best, identified, there are properties with Lord, Lord Teverson. Perhaps later we will sit down a high turnover of tenants, which only adds to the and put our heads together. It could benefit all of us difficulties. to read today’s proceedings twice or three times to Having set out the three avenues I wish to pursue, I understand the different angles from which everyone beg to move. has approached this. What I was referring to here, and perhaps did not explain clearly, is a situation where Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I certainly do not one tenant in a block of flats is holding out and the want to delay the Committee beyond its natural span, landlord does not go ahead because he does not have but perhaps I could just ask the noble Lord, Lord the full agreement of that tenant. I remember the Grantchester, how the possibility of local authorities point of the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, who carrying out improvement works and charging for asked: if there is no consent, where are we? The point them fits with the scheme of this Bill, which contains of the amendment was to get over that hurdle and a requirement to carry out the relevant efficiency enable a local authority to step in if a landlord cannot improvements financed either by the Green Deal or by carry on because one tenant refuses to make the the energy company obligation. I do not understand improvements. However, at this time of the evening, how another party in the form of the local authority and in view of all the debate that we have had, I can do something that should be dealt with by either suggest that we will all benefit from sitting down and the Green Deal or by the energy company obligation. thinking through where we are on the Bill. I beg leave It seems unfair at the very least, if we are talking about to withdraw the amendment. a group of tenants where one is holding out, for the landlord to be stuck with the cost for a whole building Amendment 20AAA withdrawn. or block in circumstances where, for the rest, there Amendments 20AB and 21 not moved. would be a Green Deal. I do not understand how this amendment fits with the scheme, which is that the Clause 39 agreed. relevant energy efficiency improvements are Green Deal or energy company obligation-funded. They are Baroness Northover: My Lords, this may be a not funded in any other way. convenient moment for the Committee to adjourn until Wednesday at 3.45 pm. Lord Grantchester: I thank the noble Baroness for The Deputy Chairman of Committees: The Committee seeking that extra clarification. In this clause we are stands adjourned. assuming that in a situation where a tenant is holding out against the wishes of every other tenant in a block, Committee adjourned at 7.37 pm.

WS 29 Written Statements[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Statements WS 30

the International Organisation for Migration (IOM). Written Statement The UK provided significant technical and financial assistance to the polling within Sudan and overseas. Monday 24 January 2011 During polling I spoke to both Vice-President Taha and Southern President Kiir about the need to resume Sudan: Referendum negotiations on the outstanding CPA issues as soon as possible. I also spoke to President Mbeki, who leads Statement the African Union High Level Implementation Panel that is supporting the parties, and to President Meles The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth of Ethiopia. My right honourable friend the International Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable Development Secretary has spoken to Jean Ping of friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and the African Union, Baroness Amos of OCHA and Commonwealth Affairs (William Hague) has made Dr Amre Moussa of the Arab League. My honourable the following Written Ministerial Statement. friend the Africa Minister has spoken to Haile I am pleased to inform the House that polling in the Menkerios, the United Nations Secretary-General’s Southern Sudan referendum took place between 9 and special representative for Sudan. 15 January 2011. Over 3 million Southern Sudanese The UK, working with international partners, worked cast their votes in this historic referendum to decide closely with the parties to reach the comprehensive their future, far exceeding the required 60 per cent peace agreement in 2005. We remain fully supportive turnout figure. Many queued for hours at polling as they address the major challenges that still lie centres, waiting patiently and calmly for the opportunity ahead. These include questions around the border to express their view. between north and south, the status of Abyei, international The successful completion of the referendum is a debt, citizenship and security. momentous step towards the implementation of the At the same time, the UK remains engaged on comprehensive peace agreement signed between the humanitarian and development issues. Of recent concern north and south in 2005. Observers from the United has been the large movement of people from north Kingdom and many other countries have been on the to south, and the displacement of 40,000 people due ground monitoring the process closely.This week domestic to violence in Darfur. Perhaps as many as 180,000 and international observers have made clear that the people have returned to Southern Sudan since November. process to date has been conducted in a credible Contingency arrangements put in place have so far manner. This is a truly remarkable achievement and I held: the UK has contributed £15 million to referendum- welcome the observers’ assessments, including the EU related contingency preparedness and, with the UN, is observation mission’s preliminary statement of 17 January monitoring the situation closely. that the referendum had met international standards Whatever the outcome of the referendum, the UK and been free and fair. We await the formal announcement will continue its commitment to both north and south of the result, currently due on 7 or 14 February. Sudan. We will continue to support African Union/United I commend the enormous efforts made over the Nations chief negotiator Djibril Bassolé and the past few months to prepare for the referendum by Government of Qatar as they seek to establish a the political leadership in Khartoum and Juba, and lasting and inclusive peace in Darfur. the work done by the Southern Sudan Referendum This is a critical moment for the people of Sudan. Commission (SSRC). I also commend the logistical Much has been achieved that lessens the risks of a support for voting inside Sudan provided by the return to war, but there is still much to be done before United Nations Mission to Sudan (UNMIS) and the end of the comprehensive peace agreement on the arrangements made for out of country voting by 9 July 2011.

WA 81 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 82

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Written Answers Department of Health (Earl Howe): The department does not hold data on the devolved Administrations. For England, the information that is available is set out in the following table. Monday 24 January 2011 The department does not collect information on spending by primary care trusts (PCTs) on abortions undertaken by National Health Service providers in Abortion England. The department does however collect information on the cost to NHS providers (NHS Questions trusts, NHS foundation trusts and PCT provider arms) Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool of abortions. The following table sets out the cost to NHS providers of abortions between 2005-06 and To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much 2009-10. The figures in the table do not include the they spent on all aspects of abortion funding in cost of abortions performed by the independent sector, England and Wales in each of the last five years; which were commissioned directly by PCT commissioner and what restrictions they placed upon such funding. arms, as this information is not collected as part of the [HL5705] reference costs collection.

(£m) 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Cost to NHS providers (NHS trusts, foundation trusts and 81.7 83.6 84.2 82.1 82.6 PCT provider arms) of providing abortion services Cost to NHS providers of commissioning or contracting abortions 12.4 17.7 10.9 10.4 7.5 from independent sector providers1 Total 94.1 101.3 95.1 92.4 90.1 Note: 1For reference costs purposes, only PCT provider arms can report commissioned data. Figures are rounded. Source: Published reference cost data, available at www.dh.gov.uk/nhscosting

Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool abortion safe and accessible. DfID’s policy position on safe and unsafe abortion is available on our website— To ask Her Majesty’s Government which Ministers www.dfid.gov.uk/Media-Room/Publications/. have policy responsibility for (a) abortion in England and Wales, (b) abortion overseas, and (c) funding Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool for (1) the International Planned Parenthood To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Federation, (2) the United Nations Population Fund, abortions performed in countries overseas were paid and (3) Marie Stopes International. [HL5707] for by (a) the Government, and (b) organisations funded by the Government, in each of the last five years, by country; and whether any restrictions Baroness Verma: The right honourable Andrew Lansley were placed on the performance of those abortions. MP, as Secretary of State for Health, has policy [HL5847] responsibility for abortion in England and Wales, Baroness Verma: The information requested is not supported by Anne Milton MP, Parliamentary Under- available without incurring disproportionate cost. Secretary of State for Public Health. The Department for International Development As Secretary of State for International Development, (DfID) does not support abortion as a method of the right honourable Andrew Mitchell MP has policy family planning. We believe the best way to eliminate responsibility for the Government’s approach to abortion unsafe abortion is to provide access to family planning in developing countries. My right honourable friend is information, services and supplies and to ensure that supported by the right honourable Alan Duncan MP, women have more control over the circumstances in Minister of State for International Development, who which they have sex. In countries where abortion is leads on UK funding for the United Nations Population permitted, DfID will support programmes that make Fund, and Stephen O’Brien MP, Parliamentary Under- abortion safe and accessible. DfID’s policy position Secretary of State for International Development, who on safe and unsafe abortion is available on our website— leads on funding to Civil Society, including the www.dfid.gov.uk/Media-Room/Publications/. International Planned Parenthood Federation and Marie Stopes International. The Department for International Development Agriculture: Organic Food (DfID) does not support abortion as a method of Questions family planning. We believe the best way to eliminate Asked by Lord Krebs unsafe abortion is to provide access to family planning information, services and supplies and to ensure that To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their women have more control over the circumstances in assessment of the recently launched European which they have sex. In countries where abortion is Commission £1.8 million campaign to promote the permitted, DfID will support programmes that make consumption of organic food. [HL5730] WA 83 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 84

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, residues in their food, and certified organic food contains Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs fewer pesticide residues than food produced using (Lord Henley): The organic industry has raised half conventional methods. the cost of this campaign and the European Union Organic regulation imposes strict animal welfare will be providing the rest. Defra was involved in discussions requirements on farmers and many consumers prefer during the development of the campaign and helped to rely on the assurance of good welfare provided by to facilitate meetings between the UK organic sector the purchase of certified organic livestock products. and Commission officials. The approach taken, which Consumers may also choose organic products because is to use every day examples of ordinary consumers, they do not use hydrogenated fats or synthetic flavours. may help to address barriers and misconceptions around As stated above, consumers of organic products may the market for organic products. We share the also contribute to environmental benefits biodiversity. Commission’s hope that the campaign will increase These are areas in which consumers may consider that the amount of organic product sold by UK organic organic foods are better for them. operators, who work hard to increase consumer choice. Asked by Lord Krebs Armed Forces: Parachute Operations To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the statement on the European Question Commission’s website that organic farming is “Good Asked by Lord Moonie for nature, Good for you”. [HL5731] To ask Her Majesty’s Government on how many occasions in the last 20 years regular United Kingdom Lord Henley: The phrase “Good for nature, Good forces have been deployed on operations by parachute. for you” was chosen by the Commission as part of its [HL5582] organic promotion campaign to convey that a system of farming that promotes biodiversity can improve the lives of European citizens by enhancing their enjoyment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of rural areas. The wording may be ambiguous in the of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): UK parachute English language as it could be seen to suggest that all forces were formally deployed in Sierra Leone in 2000. organic products are nutritionally beneficial, which is Although the Special Forces have a parachute not the case, for example, for organic confectionary. capability, information on any operations relating to When the campaign was being developed in 2006-07, them has been withheld as its disclosure would or Defra officials proposed that the Commission adopt would be likely to prejudice the capability, effectiveness the wording “Good for nature, good for us”, better to or security of the Armed Forces. convey the essential objective. Asked by Lord Krebs Bahrain To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they hold any scientific evidence that indicates whether Question organic food is (a) better for nature, and (b) better Asked by Lord Patten for consumers. [HL5732] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have received reports that the disabled academic Lord Henley: Whether organic production delivers Dr Al Singace, arrested in Bahrain following an environmental benefits is a complex issue. address to the House of Lords on personal freedoms In respect of improved biodiversity attributable to in Bahrain, has (a) had his wheelchair removed, organic systems, studies include those by Shepherd et and (b) been subjected to torture whilst in detention al. 2003, Hole et al. 2005 and Norton, L. et al. 2008. pending trial. [HL5764] While these recognise that alternative methods of encouraging biodiversity on non-organic farms may The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth be at least as effective, they also note that the organic Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The Government system provides a valuable whole farm approach to remain concerned by reports that torture was used in encouraging environmental benefits. Bahrain’s Ministry of Interior detention facilities. We However, other studies arrive at different conclusions. believe that torture is unacceptable under any For example by Gabriel et al. 2010 conclude that circumstances. We regularly encourage the Government organic farming delivers only small increases in biodiversity of Bahrain, at the highest level, to meet all their on average and in some farm types a slight reduction human rights obligations, demonstrate transparency in the numbers of small birds such as linnets and and follow due process in the investigation of alleged skylarks. offences committed against those who have been detained. In terms of organic production being better for The Government of Bahrain have assured us that consumers, recent studies funded by the Food Standards there is zero tolerance for torture in Bahraini detention Agency have shown that there are no important differences facilities. We have not received reports that Dr Al in the nutrition content of organic food when compared Singace had his wheelchair removed while in Bahraini with conventionally produced food. However, it is detention facilities but we continue to monitor the clear that some consumers prefer not to have detectable situation. WA 85 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 86

Banking Lord Sassoon: The Government are clear that remuneration policies at banks need to reward long-term Question sustainable performance and not incentivise short-term Asked by Lord Myners excessive risk taking. The Financial Services Authority’s revised Remuneration Code ensures remuneration policies To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further are consistent with effective risk management and to the answer by Lord Sassoon on 11 January imposes strict rules that ensure significant portions of (HL Deb, col. 1333), what is the amount of corporation the remuneration paid to material risk takers are deferred tax to be paid by the United Kingdom’s six largest and linked to the performance of the individual and banks in 2009–10; and what is the amount forecast the firm. to be paid by the same banks in 2010–11. [HL5820] The Government have made it clear to the Royal Bank of Scotland that they should have a smaller bonus pool than last year, and that it should be a The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord back-marker in the industry. Sassoon): Due to HM Revenue and Custom’s taxpayer confidentiality rules, it is not possible to provide the amount of corporation tax to be paid, or forecast to Banking: Liability be paid, by the United Kingdom’s six largest banks in 2009-10 and 2010-11. Question Asked by Lord Roberts of Conwy Banking: Bonuses To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the Questions total liabilities of the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds Banking Group that may be added to the Asked by Lord Myners public sector net debt. [HL5947] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the publication by the Financial Services Authority of Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The information requested a revised code on remuneration constitutes the falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics completion of the “robust action to tackle unacceptable Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. bonuses in the financial services sector” included in Letter from Stephen Penneck, Director General for the coalition agreement; and whether bonuses paid Office for National Statistics, to Lord Roberts, dated to employees in the United Kingdom financial services January 2011 sector will be acceptable in quantum and structure. As Director General of the Office for National [HL5603] Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking Her Majesty’s Government the total The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord liabilities of the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds Sassoon): Robust actions have been taken by the Banking Group that may be added to the public sector Government to tackle unacceptable bonuses, including net debt. [HL5947] the revision of the Financial Services Authority’s (FSA) In November 2009, ONS published an article which Remuneration Code, the implementation of the FSA’s estimated that the impact might be between £1 trillion new remuneration disclosure rules, the establishment and £1.5 trillion. [www.statistics.gov.uk/articles/nojournal/ of the Independent Commission on Banking and the Financial-crisis.pdf,] introduction of the bank levy.In addition, the Chancellor has written to counterparts in the European Union Work to quantify these impacts more precisely and calling for urgent consideration of proposals for an to implement them in public sector finances statistics international pay disclosure regime, and the Government has proceeded subsequently The November 2010 continue to work with international partners to investigate Public Sector Finances: Statistical Bulletin, published the costs and benefits of a financial activities tax. 21 December 2010 and available at www.statistics.gov.uk/ pdfdir/psf1210.pdf, explained that ONS intends to The Government have been clear that banks must incorporate the data for these two banking groups act responsibly in setting their bonuses. The Government into the Public Sector Finances: Statistical Bulletin are in discussion with the banks to see whether a new that will be released on 25 January 2011. This will be settlement can be reached whereby smaller bonuses accompanied by an article describing the data and the are paid than would otherwise be paid; and that there methodology used. is greater transparency in relation to remuneration than hitherto. If the banks cannot commit to such a settlement, the Government have made it clear to Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland them that nothing is ″off the table″, and the Government will keep the House informed of all relevant policy Question developments. Asked by Lord Myners Asked by Lord Higgins To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government to what extent report into the collapse of HBOS commissioned by the bonus pool of the Royal Bank of Scotland is and currently being produced for the Financial related to its performance; and to what extent payments Services Authority is subject to the same confidentiality from it to individuals are related to their performance. conditions and publication restrictions as the report [HL5875] produced on the Royal Bank of Scotland. [HL5600] WA 87 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 88

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Banks: Lending Sassoon): On 2 December the Financial Services Authority (FSA) announced that it had completed a supervisory Questions investigation into the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS). Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick The FSA is conducting supervisory investigations into the other banks that required extensive government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans support during the crisis. These investigations are they have to encourage banks to lend to the poorest ongoing. If they lead to enforcement action being families. [HL5814] taken, then it would be usual for the FSA to make To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans these outcomes public if such actions against individuals they have to ensure that banks will lend more to or institutions are successful. poorer families this year. [HL5904]

Banking: Special Liquidity Scheme The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Question Sassoon): Decisions about lending are a matter for Asked by Lord Myners individual financial institutions to make on a commercial basis. The Government do not intervene in these decisions To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many as a matter of course. United Kingdom banks continue to be funded under The voluntary Lending Code sets minimum standards the Bank of England’s Special Liquidity Scheme; for the way that banks, building societies and other what is the extent of current utilisation of the banking service providers treat their customers. It is Scheme by value; and whether participation is, or monitored by the Lending Standards Board, which could be, dependent on recipient banks avoiding is independent of government. bonus practices judged as unacceptable by the Government or the Bank of England. [HL5726]

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Benefits Sassoon): The Special Liquidity Scheme (SLS) is a Bank of England scheme. Participation is determined Questiosn according to eligibility criteria set out in the Bank’s Asked by Lord Laird MarketNoticeontheSLS(availableatwww.bankofengland. co.uk/markets/marketnoticeO90925sls.pdf). To ask Her Majesty’s Government what methods The Bank announced in the Market Notice of they use to ascertain whether recipients of social 3 February 2009 that the number of banks and building security benefits living abroad are still alive; and societies that had accessed the SLS was 32. The relevant whether they use signed life certificates in the case Market Notice can be found at www.bankofengland. of state old age pensioners. [HL5645] co.uk/markets/marketnoticeO90203c.pdf As published in the Bank’s December 2010 Financial Stability Report, £75 billion of the £l85 billion Treasury The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, bills advanced under the scheme had been repaid by Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The end-November 2010. department carries out data-matching on death data with Spain, Gibraltar, New Zealand, Australia, Ireland, the Netherlands and the USA to identify whether Banks: Fees and Charges benefit recipients in these countries are still alive. We are progressing plans to data-match with a number of Question other countries where there are high numbers of UK Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark beneficiaries. Where data-matching is not possible or practical, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment for example, because the country does not have a they have made of the level of fees and charges suitably robust registration system, life certificates are levied by United Kingdom banks. [HL5921] used. Life certificates require customers to present themselves to a recognised foreign authority to have The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord their certificate signed. The customer must also present Sassoon): The Government committed in the coalition photographic evidence, for example, a passport. agreement to introduce stronger consumer protection, The life certificate programme has recently been including measures to end unfair bank and financial expanded to include annual certification of all customers, transaction charges. not covered by data-matching, in high-risk cohorts This issue is being considered in the joint Department based on age. This expansion has proved successful. for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) and HM Asked by Lord Laird Treasury Consumer Credit and Personal Insolvency Review. The call for evidence for this review has now To ask Her Majesty’s Government which social closed, and the Government are considering the responses security benefits United Kingdom recipients can and will come forwards with specific proposals in due continue to receive while abroad and which cease course. when no longer residing in this country. [HL5646] WA 89 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 90

Lord Freud: A person moving to or residing in The table below shows the numbers of live births to another EEA country or Switzerland can continue to mothers usually resident in England in each year from receive the following benefits if they have satisfied the 2007 to 2009. conditions of entitlement: state retirement pension; Live births to mothers usually Year resident in England contributory jobseeker’s allowance but only for up to three months; 2007 655,357 contributory employment and support allowance 2008 672,809 and long-term incapacity benefit; 2009 671,058 bereavement benefits; Bribery Act 2010 industrial injuries benefits; winter fuel payment provided the person was Questions entitled to it before they left the UK; Asked by Baroness Whitaker disability living allowance (care component), attendance allowance and carer’s allowance; To ask Her Majesty’s Government what resources will be allocated to the enforcement of the Bribery maternity and paternity benefits which are based Act 2010; what changes will be made to United on a period of employment and a level of earnings; Kingdom law enforcement machinery for such child benefit and child tax credit; and purposes; and when such changes will be made. guardian’s allowance [HL5753] Domestic law provides for some benefits to be paid wherever a person resides abroad: The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord state retirement pension; McNally): An impact assessment was prepared for the introduction of the Bribery Bill. It was estimated that bereavement benefits; there would be an additional annual cost of £2 million industrial injuries benefits; and for enforcement of the new offence of failure by a guardian’s allowance commercial organisation to prevent bribery, principally In addition to these benefits, under a small number in respect of investigations and prosecutions by the of reciprocal social security agreements with other Serious Fraud Office. The Serious Fraud Office expects countries, persons living in those countries can also be to carry out all its normal functions, including Bribery paid state maternity allowance, child benefit and long-term Act investigations and prosecutions, within its announced invalidity benefit. Some other benefits can be paid, funding settlement. depending on the circumstances, for a period when a On the law enforcement machinery in relation to person is temporarily absent from the UK. economic crime more generally, the coalition agreement The income-related benefits (income-based jobseeker’s makes clear the Government’s intention to rationalise allowance, income-based employment and support the current piecemeal enforcement landscape for complex allowance, income support, state pension credit, housing economic crime. benefit and council tax benefit), are not payable to Asked by Baroness Whitaker persons residing abroad. The mobility component of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the DLA is also not exportable. relevant sections of the Bribery Act 2010 will come into force in April 2011 as envisaged without any qualification. [HL5752] Births: Statistics To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, consistent with their previous statements, they will Question publish the guidance envisaged in section 9 of the Asked by Lord Kilclooney Bribery Act 2010 in January 2011, so that the Bribery Act can commence in April 2011. [HL5754] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many births there were in England in each of the last Lord McNally: We intend to publish the guidance three years for which figures are available. [HL6074] under Section 9 of the Bribery Act shortly in preparation for the full commencement of the Act in spring this year, in line with my Written Statement of 5 October Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The information requested last year. falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Charities: VAT Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Letter from Stephen Penneck, Director General for Questions Office for National Statistics, to Lord Kilclooney, dated Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester January 2011 To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much As Director General for the Office for National they raised in each of the last five years from Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your recent irrecoverable VAT from charities; how much in question asking how many births there were in England particular they raised from Sue Ryder Care; and in each of the last three years for which figures are whether they have any plans to cease the practice. available. (HL6074) [HL5763] WA 91 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 92

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The Government continue to look at ways of ensuring Sassoon): It is not possible to assess accurately the that VAT does not act as a barrier to the reform of amount of irrecoverable VAT incurred by charities. public services where such options are open to us and Even if it were, considerations of taxpayer confidentiality affordable within agreed funding arrangements. For would preclude the disclosure of information relating example, we are continuing to work closely with the to specific organisations or individuals. charity and other sectors to explore options for Charities benefit from a range of tax reliefs which implementing the European Union VAT exemption the Government estimate were worth approximately for cost sharing, and the recent announcement of a £3 billion per annum in 2009-10. These include reliefs new VAT refund scheme for academies demonstrates from VAT, including VAT zero-rating on the sale of the Government’s willingness to create a level playing donated goods, medical and scientific equipment and, field for VAT where this can be done in a fair, targeted for qualifying charities, goods for use by disabled and affordable way. people. All zero rates are derogations from the normal However, a general VAT recovery scheme for all European Union VAT rules, and represent benefits charities would not be affordable or well targeted, nor not enjoyed by charities elsewhere in Europe. There would it be fair to reimburse those charities which are are no plans to introduce any additional VAT recovery in competition with private sector providers. schemes for charities. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool China To ask Her Majesty’s Government what estimate Question they have made of the impact which the increase of Asked by Lord Patten VAT to 20 per cent will have on charities; what assessment they have made of the estimate of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Charity Tax Group that the 2.5 per cent rise in VAT have made, or intend to make, representations to will cost an additional £140 million in irrecoverable the government of China concerning the whereabouts VAT; and why charities are not able to reclaim VAT and welfare of the imprisoned dissident Gao Zhisheng. in the same way as limited companies. [HL5870] [HL5845]

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Lord Sassoon: Charities can recover VAT incurred Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My right honourable on their purchases and expenses, to the extent that friend the Foreign Secretary raised the case of human these relate to taxable sales that they make, but they rights lawyer Gao Zhisheng during his meeting with cannot recover VAT that relates to exempt sales or Vice Premier Li Kegiang on 11 January 2011. My non-business activities. These rules also apply to limited honourable friend the Minister of State, Jeremy Browne, companies and other businesses. also raised his case with the head of the Chinese Information is not available to assess accurately the delegation to the UK-China Human Rights Dialogue amount of VAT that cannot be recovered by charities on 13 January 2011. The Chinese delegation to the or the effect on this of the increase in the standard rate dialogue was unable to provide any new information. of VAT. We will continue to ask the Chinese Government Charities benefit from a range of tax reliefs which about Gao’s whereabouts and welfare. the Government estimate are worth approximately £3 billion per annum in 2009-10. These include reliefs Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Myalgic from VAT, including VAT zero-rating on the sale of donated goods, medical and scientific equipment and, Encephalomyelitis for qualifying charities, goods for use by disabled Question people. All zero rates are derogations from the normal European Union VAT rules, and represent benefits Asked by The Countess of Mar not enjoyed by charities elsewhere in Europe. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Asked by Lord Hollick will release the public records, reference BN 141/1, relating to Myalgic Encephalomyelitis and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, from 1 January 1984 to review of the charitable-related VAT scheme will 31 December 1993, including correspondence with consider allowing charities the same opportunity as members of the medical profession, held in the the National Health Service and other public bodies National Archives; and why that information is to recover 20 per cent of the irrecoverable VAT they closed to public access until 2072 (78 years) instead pay. [HL5880] of the usual 30 years. [HL5970]

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Lord Sassoon: The Government have no plans to McNally): The file BN 141/1 contains a high volume introduce such a scheme. The VAT which is refunded of personal medical information about ME sufferers to the NHS and other bodies is taken into account as (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome part of those bodies’ overall funding arrangements. (ME/CFS). Due to the personal nature of the content, The schemes that are in place are the most efficient the file remains closed until 2072 under Section 40(2) means of delivering this part of their funding. of the Freedom of Information Act 2000. This exemption WA 93 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 94 applies because the overwhelming majority of this file made to the way the other place does business and the contains sensitive personal data of named individuals amendments to the devolution regimes—for example, who are believed to still be living. Releasing the file in the Scotland Bill presently before Parliament. We into the public domain would breach the requirement have no plans to propose a referendum in England. in the Data Protection Act 1998 that personal data be processed fairly and lawfully. Consular Services Redaction of this personal information so that the rest of the file can be released has been considered but Question ruled out. The volume of personal information about Asked by Viscount Waverley ME sufferers and benefit claims within the file means that redaction would render the open part of the file To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the so small that it would cause the contents to be meaningless. United Kingdom not being a party to the Schengen The file closure decision was reviewed in 2010 by Agreement precludes the sharing of consular services the National Archives and the Department for Work with European Union partners for issuing visas; and Pensions. and, if not, what would be the criteria for and against the sharing of consular services for the Commonwealth Countries: Accession to purposes. [HL5945] the Throne The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Question Jones): Visas issued under Chapter 3, Articles 9 to 18 Asked by Lord Myners of the Schengen agreement give access to the territory of any state participating in that part of the agreement To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to for a period of three months. The UK has not applied the answer by Lord McNally on 10 January (HL Deb, to join this part of the Schengen agreement and therefore col. 1169), whether any objections have been raised is not able to share consular services with other member by Commonwealth countries concerning affording states of the European Union for the purpose of equal rights of accession to the Throne to daughters issuing visas. of the Sovereign. [HL5858] The UK has different rules for considering visa The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord applications which would make it impractical for the McNally): Commonwealth countries of which the Queen UK to represent or be represented by other member is head of state are in regular dialogue over the legal states. and constitutional issues in which they have a shared interest. Discussions have taken place between officials, Debt: Public Sector and are continuing. But they remain confidential, and the Government are not in a position to reveal information Question about the contents of those discussions. Asked by Lord Roberts of Conwy To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Constitutional Convention current public sector net debt. [HL5948] Question Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): According to the December Public Sector To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in light of Finances (PSF) statistics release, public sector net recent discussions about the status of England within debt is £863.1 billion. More information on the PSF the United Kingdom, what plans they have to set release can be found here www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/psf_ up a constitutional convention to consider the position; statistics.htm. and whether they will propose a referendum in England to test support for an English parliament. Economy: Double-dip Recession [HL5968] Question The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick McNally): My honourable friend the Minister for Political and Constitutional Reform informed the other To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans place on 15 December 2010 (Hansard col. 822W) that they have to prevent a double dip recession in the the Government will make an announcement about United Kingdom. [HL5906] our plans to establish a commission to consider the West Lothian question—the term used to sum up The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord existing arrangements which allow MPs representing Sassoon): The June Budget set out the Government’s constituencies from devolved territories to vote on plans to accelerate deficit reduction. Putting the public English-only matters. finances back on a sustainable path is a prerequisite The Government are giving careful consideration for economic growth. to the timing, composition, scope and remit of the In its Economic and Fiscal Outlook, published on commission. Its work will need to take account of 29 November 2010, the Office for Budget Responsibility’s the proposals to reform this House to create a wholly central economic forecast shows that the economy will or mainly elected second chamber, the changes being grow in every year of the forecast horizon to 2015-16. WA 95 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 96

Education Maintenance Allowance children’s centres in disadvantaged areas offer early education, we would expect this to be of the highest Question standard and delivered by either a QT or an EYP. Asked by Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington The Government remain committed to investing in the quality of the early education and childcare workforce, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what impact and will develop proposals to support this by March the abolition of the Education Maintenance Allowance 2011. The recent local authority and school funding will have on people from lower socio-economic settlement provides for the ongoing support and groups wishing to continue into higher education. development of the workforce. From April 2011 Funding [HL5614] is being made available through a new simplified early intervention grant. Continued national investment in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the early years workforce includes the funding of Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): We are committed to places on the early years professional status programme making sure that young people from low income and the new leaders in early years programme which households can continue in education and training began in November. post-16. We are considering the replacement for the education maintenance allowance and want to ensure that the funds we have are targeted on those young Embryology people who most need support to enable them to participate in learning. Questions In reaching the decision to end education maintenance Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool allowance (EMA) we have looked closely at evaluation evidence and other research, which indicates that the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to scheme does not effectively target those young people the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 9 December who need financial support to enable them to participate (WA 76–7), how the policy whereby the Human in learning. The evidence suggests that around 90 per Fertilisation and Embryology Authority “does not cent of the young people who receive EMA would still comment on the involvement of individual members have participated in learning if the scheme was not of staff in the course of the normal discharge of available. their duties on behalf of the authority” relates to each of its press releases on 24 July 2003, 2 July 2008 and 11 January 2010. [HL5607] Education: Nurseries To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Question the Written Answers by Earl Howe on 9 December Asked by The Earl of Listowel (WA 76–7) and 20 December (WA 247), why Dr Christine Mary O’Toole’s name had been To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they have deliberately obscured in the copy of the minutes removed the requirement that each nursery be led that were placed in the Library of the House pertaining by a graduate professional. [HL5434] to the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) Research Licence Committee Meeting on 16 March 2005; whether her name and those of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for other personnel were already masked when the Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): There has never been minutes for this meeting were originally published a requirement for all early education and care settings on the HFEA website; whether any of the personnel to be led by a graduate professional. We have, however, whose identity has latterly been withheld continues recently removed the overly prescriptive requirement to be employed by the HFEA; and what are the for all Sure Start children’s centres in the most HFEA’s reasons for withholding the identity of its disadvantaged areas to provide full day care, and the current or former full-time employees but not those associated requirement that this provision be delivered of other attendees at a meeting of the Authority. by both a qualified teacher (QT) and an early years professional (EYP). [HL5608] In the past, children’s centres in the most disadvantaged areas were required to provide full day care, i.e. 10 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department hours a day, five days a week, for 48 weeks a year. of Health (Earl Howe): In determining whether to However, the National Audit Office memorandum for make public the name of an official, it is the convention the Children, Schools and Families Committee, December that staff below senior civil service or equivalent level 2009, suggested that in some areas, when demand for and those whose names are not already within the full day care is low, money intended for other Sure public domain are not released. As an independent Start services—like family support and outreach to statutory body,these are matters for the Human Fertilisation vulnerable families—is subsidising the provision of and Embryology Authority itself to determine. I have early education and care. nothing further to add on this matter. We do expect children’s centres to continue to play Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool a critical role in early education and care, including providing and encouraging take-up of free nursery To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to education for two, three, and four-year-olds and additional the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 20 December hours where there is demand. Furthermore, where 2010 (WA 247), why the minutes of the Human WA 97 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 98

Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) 10 January (HL 5438), how the incidence of ovarian Research Licence Committee Meeting on 16 March hyperstimulation syndrome (OHSS) at centres 0076, 2005 contained no reference to the autoimmune 0162 and 0017 compared to the total described in nature of type 1 diabetes before concluding that the journal Human Fertility (volume 10, issue 3, cloning offered a means of avoiding ″the likelihood pages 183–7); which other licensed centres could of rejection of the transplanted cells″; and what have been primarily responsible for the data described information was communicated to the HFEA prior therein; what steps have been taken to reduce the to 16 March 2005 in which the autoimmune nature number of patients hospitalised due to OHSS at of type 1 diabetes was highlighted or queried in each of these centres since 2003; what role the relation to the licensing of this project. [HL5609] Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) played in ensuring that such steps were To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to taken; and what actions have latterly been taken by the Written Answers by Baroness Thornton on the HFEA to ensure that data reported annually to 6 April 2010 (WA 393) and by Earl Howe on the European Society of Human Reproduction and 20 December 2010 (WA 247), why cloned human Embryology does not significantly under-represent embryos created using the nuclei from a patient the numbers of women hospitalised due to OHSS with type 1 diabetes are still considered by the in the United Kingdom when it is published by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority European IVF Monitoring Programme in the journal (HFEA) to be necessary or desirable to improve Human Reproduction. [HL5612] treatment of this disease when no further discussion of this was included in the Research Licence Inspection Report and associated minutes pertaining to the Earl Howe: The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority (HFEA) has advised that it does not hold meeting on 18 June 2008. [HL5610] data on the overall incidence of ovarian hyperstimulation To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to syndrome (OHSS). Recognising that OHSS may occur the Written Answer by Lord Drayson on 19 May in the course of the provision of licensed assisted 2009 (WA 290), what specific epigenetic criteria conception treatment, the HFEA has included cases would satisfy the Human Fertilisation and Embryology of OHSS resulting from licensed treatment, that are Authority (HFEA) that iPS cells could replace the graded severe or critical and result in admission to use of (a) stem cells derived from IVF embryos or hospital, within the scope of reportable incidents and (b) stem cells derived from cloned embryos following draws clinics’ attention to the guidelines produced by nuclear transfer; what consideration the HFEA has the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. made of epigenetic defects associated with somatic The reporting of cases of OHSS to the HFEA was cell nuclear transfer; and whether corresponding described in the answer given to the noble Lord on defects in the product of interspecies nuclear transfer 22 November 2010, Official Report, col. WA263 and would therefore preclude the licensing of such entities the HFEA has advised that it has nothing to add to for research as “necessary or desirable” or, if not, this. why stricter criteria might be imposed by the HFEA The HFEA has further advised that it has for the feasibility of research with alternatives than commissioned two independent reports on OHSS, to the purported legitimacy of using embryos in which are available on the authority’s website. The research with the same stated aims. [HL5611] HFEA’s code of practice requires licensed centres to have documented procedures for the management of OHSS, which may be reviewed on inspection. The Earl Howe: The Human Fertilisation and Embryology authority does not report data on cases of confirmed Authority (HFEA) has advised that the research licence OHSS to the European Society of Human Reproduction committees of the authority exercise their functions in and Embryology because it does not hold such data. accordance with the procedure, and applying the criteria, Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool prescribed in law. In reaching a determination, a licence committee will take into account the opinion of expert To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much peer reviewers, including an opinion on whether the the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority use of embryos in the proposed research is necessary has spent on the services of Media Strategy or or desirable for one of the purposes specified in the Hanover Communications; which other arm’s-length relevant legislation, and relevant general advice from bodies have required the services of these companies; the authority’s scientific and clinical advances advisory and what have been the total costs per annum of committee. The HFEA publishes minutes of licence services provided by Media Strategy or Hanover committees on its website at: www.hfea.gov.uk. Communications to each of the arm’s-length bodies The HFEA has also advised that it does not comment concerned since April 2002. [HL5869] on past decisions made by licence committees and Earl Howe: The Human Fertilisation and Embryology future licensing decisions will be made in the light of Authority refers the noble Lord to the Written Ministerial the best scientific and other relevant information available Statement of 4 March 2010, Official Report col. WS 184 at the time. and has nothing to add. Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Of the remaining 17 Arm’s Length Bodies (ALBs), To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to only Monitor—the Independent Regulator of NHS the Written Statement by Earl Howe on 24 November Foundation Trusts—has required the services of these 2010 (WS 101–2) and the Written Answers by companies and the total costs per annum of services Earl Howe on 14 December 2010 (WA 163) and provided since April 2002 are: WA 99 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 100

ALB: Monitor—Independent Regulator of NHS Foundation Trusts The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Hanover for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): Media Strategy Communications Regulation 244/2009 sets the timetable for the EU-wide Financial Year Total Costs PA Total Costs PA mandatory phase out of incandescent bulbs. This became 2002-03 n/a—Monitor not n/a—Monitor not law, directly applicable in all EU member states, in in existence in existence spring 2009 after agreement by the European Parliament 2003-04 0 0 and Council. Article 7 requires the European Commission 2004-05 0 0 to review the regulation no later than five years after it 2005-06 0 0 entered into force. We have no plans to seek an early 2006-07 0 0 review. 2007-08 0 0 Compact Florescent Lamps (CFLs) contain small 2008-09 0 87,338.60 quantities of mercury. The amount of mercury is 2009-10 0 14,721.67 limited by the Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive to 5 mg (and will be reduced over the next two years). Before the ban on placing 100W incandescent Energy: Gas light bulbs on the market came into force in September 2009, the Health Protection Agency (HPA) reviewed Question the potential health effects of mercury exposure from Asked by Viscount Waverley broken CFLs, and found that the exposure was likely to be small and very unlikely to cause harm. Nevertheless, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage they should be disposed of responsibly. of United Kingdom gas is supplied from European The Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment Union sources of production. [HL5942] Directive (WEEE) requires CFLs to be recycled. WEEE requires distributors to take back used electrical equipment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department but in the UK many retailers have opted instead to pay of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): In into a central distributor take-back scheme, which has 2009, 64 per cent of the UK’s gross demand (excluding funded many local authority recycling sites. From exports, but including operators’ own use) was supplied these sites, manufacturers are obliged to fund the from the United Kingdom continental shelf, a European transport, treatment and recycling, where most of the Union source of production. mercury can be recovered. The UK also imports gas from other European CFLs also cause less mercury to be emitted to the member countries. The transmission of gas within the environment over their life time than incandescent EU involves a complex pattern of imports and exports light bulbs. This is because mercury is emitted from that makes tracking the physical origin of the gas power stations during electricity generation. As CFLs molecules impractical. are more energy efficient, less energy needs to be International practice is to report the physical flows generated. of gas transmitted through pipes from neighbouring countries or via ship. DECC regularly summarises these data which are published on the DECC website. Energy: Photovoltic Installations These show that gas sourced from the European Union (Belgium and the Netherlands) accounted for a further Question 7 per cent of UK gross demand. Asked by Lord Reay For further information: Imports and exports of gas showing transit via the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to pipelines from Norway, Belgium, and the Netherlands, the Written Answer by the Parliamentary Under- along with liquefied natural gas shipped from various Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, sources: www.decc.gov.uk/media/viewfile.ashx?filepath Mr David Kidney, on 15 December 2009 (HC Deb, =statistics/source/gas/et4_3.xls&filetype= 1126W), whether they have revised the answer given 4&minwidth=true. that the Department’s modelling suggested that there would be 800,000 domestic-scale photo voltaic The European gas transit map, showing European installations by 2020; if so, what they now expect; gas flows and production by country: www.decc.gov.uk/ what will be the amount of electricity produced; media/viewfile.ashx?filetype=4&filepath=Statistics/ and what will be the cost imposed on the consumer publications/trends/articles_issue/1104-physical-gas- by the feed-in tariffs they will earn. [HL5901] flows-trends-art.pdf&minwidth=true

Energy: Light Bulbs The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Question of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): The projections referred to reflect modelling undertaken by Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon the previous administration for the impact assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in which supported the summer 2009 consultation on the light of concerns about the danger of disposing renewable financial incentives. These projections were of energy-saving light bulbs, they will lift the ban subsequently updated by the previous Administration on the manufacture, sale and importation of traditional to reflect the final design of the feed-in tariffs (FITs) tungsten filament light bulbs. [HL5966] scheme as introduced in April 2010. WA 101 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 102

The final impact assessment, which was published EU use of powers falling under all competences within in February 2010, includes the most recent projections. those treaties, and in this context we do not hold These suggested that approximately 750,000 small-scale centrally a list of these powers as they come into use. (i.e. up to 5MW) renewable installations would be incentivised under FITs by 2020, generating approximately 3TWh additional small-scale renewable electricity in EU: UK Trade 2020. Of these, 725,000 were expected to be domestic Question scale renewable installations, predominantly solar photovoltaics. Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon The final impact assessment also estimated that the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in light of expected cost to consumers of FITs, cumulative to the recent PricewaterhouseCoopers report The World 2030, would be in the order of £6.7 billion, leading in 2050 that concludes that Britain is paying a price to an average increase in annual household electricity for its over-reliance on customers in the European bills of approximately £8.50 over the period 2011-30. Union and the United States, what assessment they It should be noted that these estimates relate to have made of the impact of European Union the costs of supporting all FITs installations and not regulations on Britain’s trade with the rest of the just PV. world. [HL5689]

EU: Businesses Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: There is no comprehensive assessment of the consequences of Question European Union regulations on Britain’s trade with Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon the rest of the world. However, using the EU single market as a platform for innovation, economies of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what scale and trade should help British firms to be more assessment they have made of a proposal by the competitive internationally and seize global opportunities. European Union Commissioner for Industry and Entrepreneurship, Mr Tajani, to establish a European Union authority to supervise foreign purchases of Free Books businesses within the European Union. [HL5691] Question

Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: Her Majesty’s Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Government are focused on maintaining and improving To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans the UK’s position as a world leading destination for they have to provide funding for free book schemes. foreign direct investment. The UK’s inward investment [HL5543] regime is currently amongst the most welcoming in the world. We are aware of Mr Tajani’s proposal. While we are open to any ideas to make Europe as a whole The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for more competitive, we would not take any step which Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Government are eroded the UK’s competitiveness. HMG currently have determined to ensure that reading for pleasure is a gift legal powers intended to ensure unsuitable or unwelcome every child can enjoy. Although the current programme investors are kept at bay. Further details of the UK’s which contributes to the Booktrust bookgifting schemes inward investment strategy and policies are to be will end in March 2011, the Department for Education found in the upcoming trade White Paper and growth is talking to Booktrust about developing a new programme review. which will ensure that every child can enjoy the gift of books at crucial moments in their lives. EU: UK National Sovereignty Fuel Prices Question Question Asked by Lord Tebbit Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their on 30 November 2010 (WA 432), on how many assessment of the impact of the rises in fuel bills on occasions since 10 May 2010 the authorities of the low-income families. [HL5811] European Union have used powers under existing competencies which they have not previously used. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department [HL5675] of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): The coalition Government recognise the impact of rising The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth fuel prices on low income and vulnerable households Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Existing European and is committed to helping the poorest heat their Union competencies have been conferred by the United homes at an affordable cost. Kingdom on the European Union within EU treaties The department publishes annual statistics which agreed by both Houses of the UK Parliament. In assess the level of fuel poverty in England. Fuel prices agreeing to the treaties, Parliament has also agreed to have risen at a rate well above that of income since WA 103 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 104

2004, acting as a major contributor to the rise in fuel The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord poverty. Between 2004 and 2008, domestic energy Sassoon): The Bank of England Act 1998 states that prices rose by around 80 per cent, during which period the objectives of the Bank of England shall be to the number of fuel poor households in England rose maintain price stability; and subject to that, support from 1.2 million in 2004 to 3.3 million in 2008. the economic policy of Her Majesty’s Government, These statistics are available on the DECC website including their objectives for growth and employment. and the latest set was published in October 2010. The Government confirmed in the Budget that the Monetary Policy Committee will continue to target Using this information the department has estimated 2 per cent inflation, as measured by the 12-month that: increase in the consumer prices index. In England in 2008 the number of households with a child under 16 was 5,716,000, 907,000 of these households were in the lowest three income deciles. Health: Contaminated Blood Products Of the households with a child under 16, 539,000 Questions were fuel poor and 394,000 of these fuel poor households were in the lowest three income deciles. Asked by Baroness Campbell of Surbiton In England in 2007 the number of households with To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps a child under 16 was 6,122,000, 974,000 of these they are taking to ensure that the United Kingdom households were in the lowest three income deciles. has a secure blood supply that is free from both Of the households with a child under 16, 479,000 known and unknown pathogens. [HL5673] were fuel poor and 361,000 of these fuel poor households were in the lowest three income deciles. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The United Kingdom blood services must comply with the Blood Safety and Government Departments: Funding Quality Regulation (2005), as amended. The principal measure to protect patients against transfusion-transmitted Question infections is the careful selection of blood donors, Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick supplemented by specific testing for transfusion- transmitted infections. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they There are well established systems in place within plan to cut funding to the Ministry of Defence. the UK blood services to identify, assess and respond [HL5735] to threats to the UK blood supply posed by known and emerging pathogens that may be transmitted by The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord transfusion. The independent expert Advisory Committee Sassoon): The Ministry of Defence’s spending plans on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs and the were published in the spending review. This set out National Expert Panel on New and Emerging Infections plans for an 8 per cent real terms reduction in the also monitor developments nationally and internationally, defence budget over the next four years. and provide advice to the department and to the blood services. A number of safety measures are in place to reduce Government Departments: Staff the risk of transmission of variant Cruetzfeldt-Jakob Question disease (vCJD) as there is no specific test available for screening of donors. These include lifetime deferral Asked by Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope from donation by people who have been advised they To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in light of may be at increased risk from vCJD and by those the formation of the Behavioural Insights Team in previously transfused; leucodepletion of all donated the Cabinet Office, whether there are any examples blood; the use of non-UK plasma for production of of new policy recently introduced which demonstrate plasma products such as clotting factors; and importation the effect of behavioural economics being applied of fresh frozen plasma for treatment of children under 16. in practice. [HL5622] The introduction of bacterial screening of platelets provides an additional safety measure for these products. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Examples include the Asked by Lord Beecham introduction of “prompted choice” for organ donation and the establishment of smoking cessation trials with To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Boots (both of which appear in Applying Behavioural the statement by Earl Howe on 10 January concerning Insight to Health, December 2010). infected blood (HL Deb, cols 1229–32), how many of those infected through NHS blood and blood products they expect to receive counselling under Gross Domestic Product the three-year programme. [HL5719] Question Earl Howe: All those affected by National Health Asked by Lord Myners Service supplied blood and blood products will be To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they eligible to apply for this counselling. There is no have instructed the Bank of England Monetary information available on the number of individuals Policy Committee to target growth in the nominal who might want to access this counselling. Therefore Gross Domestic Product. [HL5932] it will not be possible to ascertain how many people WA 105 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 106 might receive counselling until the arrangements have Health: General Practitioners been put in place. Once arrangements are in place, officials will seek information regularly about take up. Question Asked by Lord Mawson Health: Drugs To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage Question of general practitioners were partners rather than salaried in each of the last ten years. [HL5956] Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department they have to provide funding to make drugs for of Health (Earl Howe): The information requested is Alzheimer’s available to patients with mild symptoms. set out in the following table. [HL5990] All general practitioners (GPs) (excluding retainers and registrars) and proportion of partners, in England The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department as at 1999-2009 of Health (Earl Howe): The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is currently All GPs updating its existing guidance on the use of donepezil (excluding GP registrars and Number of GP Percentage of (Aricept), galantamine (Reminyl), rivastigmine (Exelon) Year retainers) Providers GP Providers and memantine (Ebixa) for the treatment of Alzheimer’s disease. 2009 35,719 27,613 76.9 NICE issued final draft guidance on 18 January 2008 34,010 27,347 80.4 2011 which recommends the use of donepezil, galantamine 2007 33,364 27,342 82.0 and rivastigmine for the treatment of mild and moderate 2006 33,091 27,691 83.7 Alzheimer’s disease under certain conditions. Memantine 2005 32,728 29,340 89.6 is also recommended for patients with moderate and 2004 31,523 28,781 91.3 severe Alzheimer’s disease. We understand that, subject 2003 30,358 28,646 94.4 to any appeals, NICE expects to issue its final guidance 2002 29,202 28,117 96.3 in March. 2001 28,802 27,938 97.0 There is a statutory obligation on primary care 2000 28,593 27,791 97.2 trusts to make funding available for drugs and treatments 1999 28,467 27,681 97.2 recommended by NICE within three months of final Notes: Data as at 1 October 1999 and 30 September NICE technology appraisal guidance being published. 2000-2009. All GPs (excluding retainers and registrars) includes GP Providers and GP Others. GPs categorised as GP Providers are partners within the practice they work in. Health: Fertility Data Quality: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of Question missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are Asked by Baroness Gould of Potternewton continually being updated to improve data quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at have contacted individual primary care trusts that detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant analyses. have recently announced a suspension of, or restriction Source: The NHS Information Centre for health and social to, funding for infertility services to convey their care General and Personal Medical Services Statistics expectation that, when commissioning services, they have regard to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence clinical guidelines on fertility Health: GP Commissioning Board and the impact that fertility has on people’s lives. [HL5882] Question Asked by Lord Mawson The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): The National Health Service To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they Deputy Chief Executive, David Flory, wrote to primary intend to ensure that each general practitioner care trust commissioners on 11 January 2011 to highlight commissioning board has the breadth of talent and the importance that those involved in commissioning business skills to manage multi-million pound fertility services have regard to the National Institute contracts. [HL5954] for Health and Clinical Excellence fertility guideline, including the recommendation that up to three cycles The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of in-vitro fertilisation are offered to eligible couples of Health (Earl Howe): The Government recognise where the woman is aged between 23 and 39. that consortia will need to be supported in order to This communication is available at: commission services that will improve outcomes for www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/ patients. From 2011-12, primary care trusts will be dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/ supporting prospective consortia to develop their skills dh_123405.pdf by providing financial support as well as assigning key WA 107 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 108 individuals to them who have expert skills, such as Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton senior finance managers and people with commissioning expertise and experience. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to offer young children the flu vaccine, in In the longer term, this will be a key role for the light of the number of young children who are NHS Commissioning Board, which will publish seriously ill or who have died as a result of swine commissioning guidance, model care pathways and flu. [HL5940] model contracts for consortia. Consortia will also have the freedom to consider what additional support they may require to achieve the best outcomes for Earl Howe: The Government’s policy on influenza patients, and we will be exploring further with consortia vaccination is informed by the expert advice of the Joint what constitutes an optimal level of total running Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI). costs that meets the twin aims of securing sustainable In its statement of 23 July 2010, JCVI recommended organisations and maximising resources going to the that those children with clinical conditions which put front line. them more at risk from the effects of influenza should be offered the vaccine. JCVI does not recommend that children under the age of five outside the at-risk Health: Haemophilia groups should be vaccinated. JCVI met on 30 December 2010 to review the latest evidence on this issue. Following Question the meeting, the JCVI chairman assured my right Asked by Lord Morris of Manchester honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health that this advice remains appropriate, and recommended To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans that efforts be focused on maximising vaccine uptake they have to ensure that people with haemophilia among all those in the risk groups. As with all vaccination unable to work as a result of their condition, programmes, JCVI will keep this matter under review. particularly those with a terminal illness, will not be required to return questionnaires regarding their entitlement to incapacity benefit. [HL5762] Health: Polio Questions The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Asked by Lord Crisp for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): We have no plans to exempt people with haemophilia from completing To ask Her Majesty’s Government what they are an ESA50 questionnaire in regard to their application doing to support global efforts to eradicate polio. for Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) or the [HL5789] reassessment of their incapacity benefit entitlement. This is because entitlement to ESA is not condition-based Baroness Verma: The UK Government are a long but is based on someone’s functional assessment, which term supporter of polio eradication and provide support varies between individuals with the same condition. through annual contributions to the Global Polio The questionnaire is a valuable way to gather information Eradication Initiative (GPEI), based in the World about an individual and for them to explain in their Health Organisation. Officials at the Department for own words how their condition affects them. International Development (DfID) are closely engaged However, claimants who are identified as terminally with GPEI, other key donors and endemic and formerly ill are fast-tracked through the application process, endemic country governments over the policy challenges without having to complete a questionnaire or attend to elimination that remain. a face-to-face assessment and are put straight onto the In 2010, UK support contributed about 10 per cent highest level of benefit. of the surveillance, staff and other costs associated with vaccinating up to 167 million children under five years, underpinned by a financial contribution of Health: Influenza £100 million over five years. UK funding is not earmarked, enabling GPEI to allocate it against current priorities. Questions Asked by Lord Crisp Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans the Department for International Development have they have to provide more funding to combat secondary to make global polio eradication a priority over the infections from flu outbreaks. [HL5905] next five years. [HL5790]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Baroness Verma: The UK Government continue of Health (Earl Howe): The Chief Medical Officer to be committed to polio eradication as an wrote to general practitioners and other clinicians on important global goal. The Department for International 10 January reminding them of the need to be vigilant Development (DfID) is currently reviewing its aid of bacterial co-infections occurring in patients with programme to determine how we can achieve better flu-like illness. A copy of this letter has been placed in value for money for the taxpayer and accelerate progress the Library. The Government have no plans to provide towards achieving all the millennium development additional funding in respect of this specific issue. goals. WA 109 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 110

Once the department has considered the findings House of Lords: Catering from its bilateral and multilateral aid reviews, a decision will be made on future funding commitments to polio Questions eradication. Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough To ask the Chairman of Committees what plans Health: Spending Cuts he has to make available to Members the April 2010 Question Consultant’s Report into House of Lords Catering and Retail operations. [HL5715] Asked by Baroness Gould of Potternewton

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what guidance The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of is being given to primary care trusts to ensure that Tara): I have no plans to make this report available, the cuts to services are not being targeted in a since it was commissioned for internal use by officials discriminatory manner; and what steps they are to enable them to formulate appropriate proposals for taking to ensure that the cuts do not discriminate consideration by the Refreshment Committee. against gender re-assignment cases; and whether they will ensure that their financial policies are Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough equitable and have been subject to equality impact assessments. [HL5883] To ask the Chairman of Committees what was the total cost of the April 2010 Consultant’s Report into House of Lords Catering and Retail operations. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, [HL5716] Department of Health (Earl Howe): Primary care trusts, as with other National Health Service organisations and public bodies, must fulfil their statutory responsibilities The Chairman of Committees: The successful consultant under the Equality Act 2010, including assessing the was awarded the contract following a competitive impact of their decisions. Guidance is available from a tender exercise, involving a group of pre-selected number of sources including the Equality and Human companies. Assessment of tenders was based on multiple Rights Commission and NHS employers with whom evaluation criteria to establish which supplier provided the department is working to support the NHS to best value for money and the most appropriate skill set implement the Equality Act. and methodology. The total cost of the review was The NHS chief executive wrote to all NHS £15,025. organisations in September 2010 reminding them that Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough compliance with both the spirit and letter of the Act is essential during transition. The NHS Operating To ask the Chairman of Committees what Framework 2011-12 also reminds NHS organisations recommendations have been made following the to ensure that all decisions are taken with due regard publication and consideration of the April 2010 to the public sector equality duty to ensure that decisions Consultant’s Report into House of Lords Catering are fair, transparent, accountable, evidence-based and and Retail operations; and whether he will make consider the needs and rights of staff and patients these available to Members. [HL5717] across all the equality characteristics. The Chairman of Committees: A large number of recommendations made by the consultant have been Homelessness implemented. These include a series of “quick wins” and operational improvements, such as simplification Question of menus, the removal of loss-making vending machines Asked by Lord Ouseley and improvements to purchasing and stock control processes. The Refreshment Committee has also conducted To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the the price review against external benchmarks which implementation of cuts in housing benefit, how the consultant recommended, and prices across the many homeless people they forecast there will be. House have recently been increased as a result. Finally, [HL5665] the Refreshment Committee is in the process of considering what changes might be made to the various The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department refreshment outlets in response to the consultant’s for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): We have carried report. Any major proposed changes which ensue will out an impact assessment on the changes to housing be communicated to Members in a report to the benefit. This was published on 30 November 2010 and House by the Refreshment Committee. is available in the Library. It does not contain an estimate of the impact on homelessness as we cannot anticipate the behaviours of tenants or their landlords. House of Lords: Website We have taken action to reduce the risk of households Question becoming homeless with a substantial package of financial Asked by Lord Norton of Louth and practical support in place, worth £190 million over the spending review period. We are also giving existing To ask the Chairman of Committees what was customers up to nine months’ transitional protection the number of page views of the House of Lords so that they have time to look for alternative accommodation homepage on the Parliament website for each month if they need to. in 2010. [HL5950] WA 111 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 112

The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Immigration Tara): The number of page views for the House of Lords homepage on the Parliament website in 2010 Question was as set out in the table below. I apologise that Asked by Lord Laird figures are not available for every month for technical reasons. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Lord Freud on 11 January Month Number of page views (WA 433), whether employers need to establish the right of all potential employees to undertake January 35,440 employment by checking their immigration status February 31,973 and ascertaining whether they are subject to March 39,678 immigration control; and what provisions are in April 19,378 force to ensure discriminatory practices such as May Unavailable racial profiling are not followed when requiring June 13,095 from applicants documentation proving a right to July 25,871 work in the United Kingdom. [HL5960] August Unavailable September Unavailable October 38,312 The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- November 46,032 Jones): The UK Border Agency recommends that December 32,723 document checks are conducted on all prospective employees including British citizens as this provides evidence of an open and transparent recruitment process Houses of Parliament: Mail that does not discriminate against individuals on racial grounds. Guidance documents for employers on Question preventing illegal working include a code of practice Asked by Lord Norton of Louth that helps employers to comply with the law on illegal working without discriminating against individuals on To ask the Chairman of Committees how many the basis of their race. This code of practice—Guidance items of mail were received in the Palace of Westminster for Employers on the Avoidance of Unlawful Discrimination in 2010; and, of those, what percentage were received in Employment Practice While Seeking to Prevent Illegal in the House of Lords. [HL5949] Working—is available on the UK Border Agency website: www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/employers/ The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of preventingillegalworking. Tara): In total, 3,082,187 items of mail were received in the Palace of Westminster in 2010. Approximately 25 per cent (770,547) of these items were destined for Immigration: Deportation the House of Lords. These figures do not include Question parcels, courier items or internal mail. Asked by Lord Ouseley Housing To ask Her Majesty’s Government, following the death of Jimmy Mubenga when restrained by officers Questions from G4S, whether G4S continues to accompany Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark deportees. [HL5757]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- forecast of the number of local authority homes Jones): The Government would prefer that those with that will be built in the years 2011 to 2014.[HL5798] no basis of stay in the United Kingdom leave the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their country voluntarily. Where they fail to do so escorts estimate of the number of housing association homes are empowered legally to ensure they comply with that will be built in the years 2011 to 2014.[HL5799] their removal. It has been the practice of successive Governments to use private security companies to escort immigration detainees. G4S has a contract to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, provide such services to the UK Border Agency until Department for Communities and Local Government the end of April 2011 when the service will be provided (Baroness Hanham): The department does not forecast by Reliance Secure Task Management. levels of future house building as delivery will be determined by local housing plans. In the comprehensive spending review we announced almost £4.5 billion Israel and Palestine: West Bank investment in new affordable housing to help deliver up to 150,000 affordable homes. However, we are Question giving housing associations much more flexibility on Asked by Baroness Tonge rents and use of assets, so our aspiration is to deliver even more homes through our investment and reforms. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment The department will be publishing its impact assessment they have made of the demolition in Dkaika village on the affordable rent model shortly. in the West Bank on 12 January of 16 homes, a WA 113 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 114

school classroom and other structures and the Lebanon and for regional stability. The UK has called consequent homelessness; and what representations on all parties to work together for a peaceful resolution they have made to the government of Israel regarding of the crisis. the increased number of displaced people from Asked by Baroness Tonge Area C in 2010 compared to the previous year. [HL5935] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what position they take on the publication of the findings of the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth United Nations Special Tribunal for Lebanon, which Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are aware of the is trying those charged with the assassination of demolitions that took place in the village of Dkaika Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. [HL5938] on 12 January 2011 and are concerned at what appears to be a sharp increase in the level of demolitions and Lord Howell of Guildford: On 17 January 2011 the evictions in East Jerusalem and Area C throughout prosecutor for the Special Tribunal for Lebanon passed 2010. a draft indictment to the pre-trial judge for review. The According to UN figures, over 430 Palestinian contents of the indictment are confidential at this structures were demolished throughout the occupied stage. West Bank, including East Jerusalem, in 2010. These This independent judicial process is working to end demolitions rendered almost 600 people homeless. impunity for political assassinations in Lebanon. It is Israel argues that these buildings have been constructed important that the special tribunal be allowed to work without the required Israeli permits. We do not recognise freely and we call on all sides to co-operate constructively, that Israel has any right to impose such Israeli Law on and not interfere with due process. The UK along with East Jerusalem. many other countries will remain unwavering in our We continue to monitor the situation closely and support for international justice. will continue to raise the matter with the Israeli Government as necessary. Local Government: Finance Israel: Trade Questions Question Asked by Lord Beecham Asked by Lord Clinton-Davis To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in light of the Local Government Finance Settlement announced To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent on 13 December, what is the size of the £85 million assessment has been made of the value of trade of transitional grant to reduce the front loading of with Israel to the United Kingdom economy. grant reductions as a percentage of total local [HL5971] authority expenditure. [HL5301]

Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint: In 2009, bilateral The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, trade in goods and services between the UK and Israel Department for Communities and Local Government exceeded £3 billion. Exports to Israel between January (Baroness Hanham): The transitional grant ensures and October 2010 are valued at £1.1 billion, a 19 per that no authority experiences a “revenue spending cent rise compared to the same period last year. Imports power” reduction in either 2011-12 or 2012-13 of from Israel between January and October 2010 valued more than 8.9 per cent. It protects those authorities £1.3 billion, a 51 per cent rise compared to the same who are very dependent on central government grants period last year. Full figures for trade in goods and such as the working neighbourhood fund, as well as services for the year 2010 are not yet available. the capacity of authorities to raise income locally. It was not introduced to change the overall annual profile of the spending plans up to 2014-15, which have been Lebanon set in order to ensure that the Government tackle the Questions record fiscal deficit. £85 million is to be paid in 2011-12 and represents 0.07 per cent of the £121 billion total Asked by Baroness Tonge net current expenditure budgeted for 2010-11 by those local authorities which receive formula grant. This To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment expenditure is as reported by local authorities on the they have made of the current political situation in revenue account (RA) forms submitted annually to Lebanon and its impact on stability in the region; the Department for Communities and Local Government. and what support they will provide to the government Local authority budgeted expenditure for 2011-12 is of Lebanon. [HL5937] not yet available. Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): As my right honourable To ask Her Majesty’s Government what friend the Foreign Secretary has said, the collapse of representations they have received from local authorities National Unity Government is an extremely serious following the Provisional Local Government Finance development which could have grave implications for Settlement. [HL5628] WA 115 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 116

Baroness Hanham: Ministers have received over 300 event of an affirmative vote in the referendum on representations on the proposals for the 2011-12 local 3 March and the Assembly voting to commence the government finance settlement and have also had a powers in Part 4 of the Act. Parliament is currently number of meetings with local authorities in the responsible for legislating on those subjects which consultation period that ended on 17 January 2011. have not been devolved to the Assembly in Acts of Parliament or through Legislative Competence Orders (LCOs). Mahmoud Abu Rideh Question National Defence Authorization Act Asked by Lord Laird Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what social Asked by Lord Judd security benefits were being paid to Mahmoud Abu Rideh before his recent departure from the United To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Kingdom and his death in Afghanistan; when they representations they have made to the government ceased to be paid; and how much in total was paid. of the United States about the recent National [HL5641] Defence Authorization Act and its implications for the United Kingdom–United States relationship in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department terms of commitments to human rights and the for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): Complete information rule of law. [HL5902] is not available. The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a matter for The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra Singh. I Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): No representations have asked him to write to you separately by 4 February. have been made to the US government on this issue.

Music and Dance Scheme National Minimum Wage Question Question Asked by Lord Hall of Birkenhead Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to they have made of the impact of the Music and the Written Answer by Baroness Neville-Jones on Dance Scheme and its nine Centres for Advanced 11 January (WA 438), whether tax-free payments Training. [HL5783] under Section 338 of the Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 are included when determining The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for if a worker is paid the national minimum wage; and Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Music and Dance whether this includes subsistence and accommodation Scheme currently provides training for our most talented payments connected with attending a temporary children at eight specialist music and dance schools workplace. [HL5961] around the country and through a network of 15 centres for advanced training. We have not made a recent The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord assessment of their impact. However, we believe this Sassoon): For pay reference periods starting on or focus on excellent provision enables us to develop the after 1 January 2011, payments from an employer to a next generation of professional musicians and dancers, worker for travelling expenses which are allowed as providing those with exceptional talent from all deductions from earnings under Section 338 of the backgrounds with the expert support which they require. Income Tax (Earnings and Pensions) Act 2003 (and Students at centres for advanced training now number any associated subsistence and accommodation payments) over 850 students. do not count overall when determining whether a worker is paid the national minimum wage. National Assembly for Wales: Referendum Question North and South Korea Question Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool To ask Her Majesty’s Government what effect a yes vote in the referendum on additional powers for To ask Her Majesty’s Government what practical the National Assembly for Wales will have upon the assistance they are able to give in encouraging and Westminster Parliament. [HL5254] facilitating peace talks between North and South Korea. [HL5872] The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness): Schedule 7 to the Government of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Wales Act 2006 sets out the subjects which would be Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Progress towards a devolved to the National Assembly for Wales in the lasting peace will depend on building trust and confidence WA 117 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 118 between the south and the north, with the involvement 3. Separate figures are given for males and females as the age of concerned countries particularly the US and China. at which State Pension can be received has not yet been The six party talks are key to this. We support that equalised. process, and regularly talk to all countries in the Asked by Lord Donoughue region and use our embassy in North Korea to deliver messages. We have made clear that we would seriously To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of consider any request from the parties to provide practical the pre-September 1992 “with profit” annuitants of assistance. the Equitable Life scheme of compensation selected target bonus rates of return of 5–10 per cent in order to set their starting pension. [HL5859] Parliamentary Sovereignty Question The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Sassoon): The Government do not hold this information. With profits annuitants (WPAs) whose policies To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the commenced before 1 September 1992 did so before doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty derives from any maladministration could have affected their investment recognition by the courts of the legislative supremacy decisions. Accordingly, they did not suffer a loss in of Parliament; and, if not, what is the source of the respect of which they should be compensated. doctrine in British constitutional law. [HL5827]

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): The Government note that there are differing Post Office: Credit Unions views concerning the origin of the doctrine of Question parliamentary sovereignty. They consider, however, that it is clear that the legal principle of parliamentary Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark sovereignty is recognised and applied by the courts. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the development of stronger Pensions links between credit unions and the Post Office. Questions [HL5877] Asked by Lord Laird The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox): average age of old age pensioners living in the United We were clear in the policy statement Securing the Post Kingdom and of those abroad in receipt of state Office Network in the Digital Age, published on 9 November old age pensions in (a) Bangladesh, (b) the Republic 2010, that we support a stronger link up between the of Ireland, (c) Spain, (d) Pakistan, and Post Office and credit unions. (e) the United States. [HL5740] In addition to existing arrangements, Post Office Limited is working to extend its co-operation with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department credit unions, including continued engagement with for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The information the Association of British Credit Unions to explore is in the table options to further expand services. Average age of State Pension claimants in various countries Gender of claimant Countries Female Male Prisons: Prison Officers Question Great Britain 71 73 Pakistan 77 75 Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick Bangladesh 76 76 Rep of Ireland 72 72 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their Spain 68 71 response to the finding that only 17 prison officers USA 74 75 are in charge of more than 3,000 inmates on a typical night in open prisons. [HL5640] Source DWP Information Directorate: Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Notes: McNally): The figures quoted did not accurately reflect 1. Country code for abroad cases as recorded on the the total number of staff in open prisons on a typical department’s administrative systems has been used. This is not night, and related to only a specific group of prisons necessarily the claimant’s permanent place of residence. and not the whole open estate. 2. The median has been used as it is a better measure of “average” than arithmetic mean for skewed distributions. Half of Staffing levels in all open prisons have been risk-assessed the claimants in each group are younger than the median age and as appropriate for low risk offenders who are nearing half are older. the end of their sentences. WA 119 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 120

Public Expenditure 1. Number of non-serious casualties relating from these collisions are not provided. Question 2. The following forces have not provided any data for the number of road traffic collisions involving police vehicles in Asked by Lord Tebbit emergency/ pursuit involving injury: Cambridgeshire, Dorset, Gloucestershire, Humberside, City of London and North To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much Yorkshire. (a) public expenditure, and (b) the public sector 3. Death: refers to persons killed immediately or who died deficit, has been cut since May 2010. [HL5676] within 30 days of the accident. This is the usual international definition and differs from that used in other contexts by the The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Registrars General, whose published statistics cover all deaths on Sassoon): At the June Budget, the Government set out public roads, generally by date of registration. £5.2 billion of spending reductions and £2.8 billion 4. Serious injury: An injury for which a person is detained in hospital as an ’in-patient’ or any of the following injuries of revenue raising measures to take effect in 2010-11. whether or not they are detained in hospital: fractures, Overall, the Government set out over £8 billion of concussion, internal injuries, crushings, burns (excluding friction measures to reduce public sector net borrowing for burns), severe cuts, severe general shock requiring medical 2010-11. treatment and injuries causing death 30 or more days after the accident. An injured casualty is recorded as seriously or slightly injured by the police on the basis of information available within Roads: Fatal Accidents a short time of the accident. This generally will not reflect the results of a medical examination, but may be influenced Question according to whether the casualty is hospitalised or not. Hospitalisation procedures will vary regionally. Asked by Lord Condon 5. These figures are provisional and have not been confirmed with police forces. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many fatal and serious road traffic accidents involved police vehicles in 2009–10; and whether this represents Safety: Standards an increase or decrease compared to the previous reporting year. [HL5780] Question Asked by Lord Laird The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Jones): Figures collected by the Home Office show: To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Baroness Wilcox on the number of road traffic collisions involving 20 December 2010 (WA 265), whether European police vehicles in emergency responses or pursuit standard BS EN 60335-2-6:2003 for electric ovens and resulting in injuries to the police or members and hobs, in its new Clause 7.10 on devices used to of the public; and stop operational functions of electric ovens and the number of serious and fatal casualties resulting hobs, means that manufacturers and retailers are from these collisions. now required to provide both tactile and visual They are contained in the following table. signs of a switch being operated. [HL5893] The data provided here are a supplementary series collected on behalf of and released with the approval The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, of Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC). Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness These data are normally used for inspection purposes Wilcox): The safety of electric ovens and hobs is only. regulated by the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations Number of road traffic collisions (RTCs) involving 1994 (SI 1994/3260). European Harmonised standards, police vehicles in immediate/emergency response also published as British Standards, such as BS EN and police pursuits and resulting in injury; and 60335-2-6:2003 provide a presumption of conformity to the requirements of the regulations. However, that Number of fatal and serious casualties to the presumption is challengeable by an enforcement authority police and members of the public resulting from by an argued safety case. The regulations do not make these collisions1,2,5 it mandatory to comply with a standard, but products England and Wales must comply with the regulations and be safe. ″ Per cent The standards set what are considered as State of change the art, good engineering practice, extending of scientific between knowledge, ability of engineering to produce solutions, 08-09 and reasonable expectations of consumers, and further 2008-09 2009-10 09-10 relevant aspects″. Compliance with a standard is a RTCs 890 780 -12 per generally easier route than complying directly with the cent requirements of the legislation. Casualties—fatal3 26 17 -35 per It is for CEN/CENELEC and the national standards cent bodies such as the British Standards Institute to keep Casualties—serious4 85 88 4 per cent the standards up to date. Inputs into the national standards bodies, such as through the British Standards Source: Home Office from returns (ref ADR 411) Institute (BSI), and from European initiatives such as received from police forces. that for the older person and persons with disabilities WA 121 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 122 take forward the understanding of what forms a safe child has an entitlement to pursue a broad and balanced product. The Government would only become involved curriculum and has a grasp of the basics. The introduction in extreme cases, e.g. where a product is removed from of the English Baccalaureate sends a message that we the market by Trading Standards. must have higher expectations for all young people. Currently clause 7.9 of BS EN 60335-1:2002 requires We are reforming our school system by learning from that switches on electrical appliances which may give the best in the world where a broad academic curriculum rise to a hazard when operated shall be marked or at age 16 is a matter of course and we are determined placed so as to indicate clearly which part of the that our exam standards match the highest standards appliance they control. A revision to BS EN 60335-2- around the world, giving our young people the best 6:2003 will make it necessary for electric ovens and opportunity to go on to further learning and work. hobs to have either a tactile or audio-visual indication for switches. As time passes, expectations change and state of the art advances these requirements can be Swine Flu expected to change. Question The Government are currently content with the Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick standardisation activity which is kept under review. Persons with strong views on current requirements of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans standards are free to directly approach the national they have to ensure that all children under five will standards body—for the UK that would be BSI. receive a vaccination for swine flu. [HL5861] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Schools: Male Teachers of Health (Earl Howe): This winter’s seasonal influenza Question vaccination offers protection against swine influenza (H1N1) and two other types of influenza. The Government’s Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon policy on influenza vaccination is informed by the expert advice of the Joint Committee on Vaccination To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to and Immunisation (JCVI). In its statement of 23 July, the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on JCVI recommended that only those children with clinical 29 November (WA 400–1) concerning increasing conditions which put them more at risk from the the proportion of male teachers in state primary effects of influenza should be offered the vaccine. schools from the current 15 per cent, what effect the JCVI does not recommend that children under the age implementation of the Equality Act 2010 will have of five outside the at-risk groups should be vaccinated. on recruitment policies. [HL5102] JCVI met on 30 December to review the latest evidence on this issue. The JCVI chairman subsequently assured The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for me that this advice remains appropriate, and recommended Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The Government are that efforts be focused on maximising vaccine uptake continuing to consider the wide range of issues around among all those in the risk groups. As with all vaccination the future of teacher training, and any proposals for programmes, JCVI will keep this matter under review. change will be consistent with the requirements of the Equality Act 2010. Encouraging more men to train as primary school Syria teachers would be permitted under the new provisions Question on recruitment positive action in the Equality Act Asked by Lord Patten 2010, which are in place to encourage participation by certain groups in employment where such participation To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to is disproportionately low. the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford The appointment of teachers to schools will remain on 30 November 2010 (WA 446), whether they now a local matter although employers should be aware of have information concerning the whereabouts and these new provisions when recruiting to vacant positions welfare of Ms Hassan; when she is to be brought to . trial; and when the United Kingdom Ambassador in Damascus last made representations to the government of Syria over her case. [HL5671] Schools: Secondary Schools Question The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Our ambassador Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick last made representations to the Syrian Government on the case of Ms Hassan on 19 October 2010. We To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the have heard nothing further from the Syrian authorities advantages anticipated as a result of the new secondary concerning Ms Hassan’s welfare, whereabouts or when school performance measures announced in the she is to be brought to trial. Schools White Paper. [HL5737] We continue to raise cases of human rights defenders with the Syrian Government and call for the release of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for all who have been imprisoned solely for seeking to Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The new school exercise their right to peaceful freedom of expression performance measures will help to ensure that every and freedom of association. WA 123 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 124

Taxation: Avoidance Taxation: Code Errors Question Question Asked by Lord Dykes Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they they are planning in addition to their campaign to plan to write off tax bills for pensioners who are ensure that tax avoidance and evasion by high-income victims of tax code errors. [HL5813] groups is reduced. [HL5913] The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) is allowed Sassoon): This Government are committed to tackling under Extra Statutory Concession A19 to forgo the avoidance wherever it occurs and will be building in collection of tax in certain circumstances. The concession sustainable defences against avoidance opportunities is available where information has been provided to when undertaking policy reform. We announced a HMRC, HMRC has failed to act on it timeously, and number of changes on 6 December 2010 to tackle the customer could reasonably have believed their tax specific tax avoidance risks and are reviewing areas of affairs were in order. the tax system in which repeated changes have been The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury made a necessary to close loopholes. We have also commissioned statement on 11 January 2011 (Hansard, 11 January a study, led by Graham Aaronson QC, to examine the col. 9WS) about a certain category of pensioners case for developing a General Anti Avoidance Rule where the terms of this concession would apply. Other (GAAR) for the UK. pensioners who have underpaid Pay As You Earn tax Alongside this we will continue to use intelligence who believe they meet these conditions will need to obtained from the Disclosure of Tax Avoidance Schemes make a claim to HMRC for concessionary treatment. regime and other sources to detect avoidance schemes early and we will challenge avoidance robustly where we find it. Taxation: Fuel Duty We are also investing £900 million over the spending review period to transform HM Revenue & Customs’ Question (HMRC) work against avoidance, evasion and criminal Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick attack This includes a more robust criminal deterrent against tax evasion—HMRC will increase the number To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of criminal prosecutions fivefold—and a crackdown plan to cut fuel duty if the cost of fuel rises beyond on offshore evasion with the creation of a new dedicated a certain point. [HL5639] team of investigators to catch those hiding money offshore. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): In the June Budget the Government asked Taxation: Capital Gains Tax the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) to undertake an assessment of the effect of oil price fluctuations on Question the public finances. The OBR published its report on Asked by Lord Marlesford 14 September 2010. The Chancellor keeps all taxes under review. The To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Government are considering the OBR’s assessment as current level of exemption for capital gains tax on part of the usual Budget process chattels under section 262 of the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992; when this was last changed; and what it would be if up-rated from (a) that date, and (b) since capital gains tax was introduced Taxation: Income Tax in 1965, to take account of inflation. [HL5778] Question Asked by Lord Marlesford The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon): Under Section 262 of the Taxation of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what additional Chargeable Gains Act 1992, gains are exempt if the revenue would have been collected for the year proceeds from disposing of a chattel are £6,000 or less. 2008–09 if the top rate of income tax had been (a) 50 per cent at a threshold of £150,000 of pre-tax The limit was increased to £6,000 for any disposals income, (b) 60 per cent at a threshold of £500,000, on or after 6 April 1989. Up-rating this limit to the (c) 70 per cent at a threshold of £1 million, and (d) 2010-11 tax year using the retail prices index (RPI) 80 per cent at a threshold of £2 million. [HL5775] leads to an approximate limit of £12,000. The exemption limit when capital gains tax was introduced from 6 April 1965 was £1,000. Up-rating The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord this limit using RPI to the 2010-11 tax year would Sassoon): The table below shows the estimated change result in an approximate limit of £15,200. to income tax revenue under the four scenarios. WA 125 Written Answers[24 JANUARY 2011] Written Answers WA 126

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Estimated change in Sassoon): The Budget assumed no further change to Change in top income tax the 20 per cent standard rate of VAT, which is a rate of income revenue for structural change to the tax system to deal with a tax Threshold 2008-09 structural deficit. a) 40% to 50% £150,000 Increase of Asked by The Countess of Mar £2,000 million b) 40% to 60% £500,000 Increase of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what would £300 million be the cost to HM Treasury of reducing VAT to c) 40% to 70% £1 million Decrease of zero for (a) all charitable organisations, and (b) £800 million those charitable organisations that provide public d) 40% to 80% £2 million Decrease of £1,000 million services. [HL5652] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in light of the fact that local authorities and NHS providers The figures refer to accrued liabilities during 2008-09 are not required to pay VAT, what assessment they and do not reflect the timing of receipts. have made of the impact of continuing to require Estimates take account of behavioural responses, charitable organisations to pay VAT on their ability such as changes in work effort, increased tax planning, to provide public services. [HL5653] avoidance or migration motivated by tax rate changes. These effects, and associated revenue costs, are highly uncertain, in particular for the large changes in tax Lord Sassoon: Under longstanding agreements with rates for high income individuals posed in this question. our EU partners, we are permitted to retain our existing Pre-behaviour estimates are based on the 2007-08 VAT zero rates, but not to apply any new ones or Survey of Personal Incomes and are projected in line extend the scope of existing zero rates. For that reason, with the Office for Budget Responsibility’s Autumn no estimate has been made of the cost of introducing 2010 forecast. additional VAT zero rates. Local authorities and NHS bodies do have to pay VAT on goods and services. However, many of their Taxation: Inheritance Tax activities are carried out under a statutory obligation, not by way of business, which means that, even where Question they make a charge for them, those bodies are not required to charge VAT. Ordinarily, if a body is not Asked by Lord Marlesford charging for goods or services supplied in the course To ask Her Majesty’s Government on what date, of business, it is not allowed to reclaim as input tax and at what level, the current £250 exemption from any VAT it has incurred on goods or services bought Inheritance Tax for small gifts was first introduced; in to make that supply. However, to avoid such and what the level of the exemption would be if irrecoverable VAT falling as an additional burden on adjusted for inflation from the date or its original taxpayers, legislation exists to allow local authorities introduction. [HL5839] and NHS bodies to recover VAT charged to them on purchases to fulfil their statutory obligations, subject to certain conditions. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Charities are not subject to similar statutory obligations, Sassoon): The small gift exemption from inheritance and so their activities are covered by the normal VAT tax continues a similar relief existing in its predecessor rules. However, they do benefit from a range of tax taxes (estate duty and capital transfer tax). The capital reliefs which for 2009-10 the Government estimate are transfer tax was introduced in 1974, with an annual worth approximately £3 billion per annum. These limit for small gifts of £100 per donee. This limit include reliefs from VAT, for example: VAT zero-rating increased in line with inflation to £250 from 6 April on the sale of donated goods, medical and scientific 1980. Inheritance tax was introduced in 1986. equipment and, for qualifying charities, goods for use If the £250 figure had been uprated from 1980 in by disabled people. All zero rates are derogations from line with the retail prices index (RPI) it would currently the normal EU VAT rules, and represent benefits not stand at £910. enjoyed by charities elsewhere in Europe. If the £250 figure had been uprated from 1986 in Asked by Lord Ouseley line with the RPI it would currently stand at £560. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, prior to the VAT increase to 20 per cent on 4 January, what consideration was given to the earlier forecast from Taxation: VAT the Office of Budget Responsibility that such an Questions increase would reduce gross domestic product by 0.3 per cent next year; and how the VAT increase Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick will affect the economic recovery. [HL5661] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they rise in VAT to 20 per cent will be made permanent. plan to restore VAT to its previous rate of 17.5 per [HL5638] cent during their term of office should the economy WA 127 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 128

return to a position of strength; and, should adverse The poorest will benefit from other measures economic circumstances prevail, whether they would announced in the Budget including the £1,000 increase consider further increases in VAT. [HL5662] in the income tax allowance, the increases in child tax credit, and new triple-lock annual increases in the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment state pension. they have made of opinions which have criticised the impact of the VAT increase on the poorest In addition, VAT on everyday essentials like food households; and what measures of support they and children’s clothing will remain zero-rated and plan to offer to those households. [HL5663] household energy will remain subject to the reduced rate. Lord Sassoon: Decisive action taken by the Government in the spending review and June Budget, including the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of increase in VAT, will put the public finances and spending on a sustainable footing. This is already Employment) Regulations helping to keep long-term interest rates low and encourage Question businesses to invest and grow. Asked by Lord Beecham The Office for Budget Responsibility’s forecasts show that the Government’s plans will deliver sustainable To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the growth for each of the next five years, with employment Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) rising by 1.1 million by 2015, and the deficit falling. Regulations will apply to primary care trust staff These forecasts took full account of the VAT increase. transferring to posts under the proposed new system The Budget assumed no further change to the of general practitioner commissioning. [HL5885] 20 per cent standard rate of VAT, which is a structural change to the tax system to deal with a structural The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department deficit. of Health (Earl Howe): Subject to the factual circumstances The VAT increase is broadly progressive in terms of in each case, the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection households’ expenditure; and, overall, the Budget will of Employment) Regulations may apply to primary have no measurable negative impact on child poverty care trust staff working in functions transferring to the in the next two years. proposed new system of general practitioner commissioning. Monday 24 January 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENT

Col. No. Col. No. Sudan: Referendum...... 29

Monday 24 January 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Abortion...... 81 EU: Businesses...... 101

Agriculture: Organic Food...... 82 EU: UK National Sovereignty...... 101

Armed Forces: Parachute Operations ...... 84 EU: UK Trade ...... 102

Bahrain...... 84 Free Books...... 102

Banking ...... 85 Fuel Prices ...... 102

Banking: Bonuses ...... 85 Government Departments: Funding...... 103

Banking: Liability...... 86 Government Departments: Staff...... 103

Banking: Royal Bank of Scotland...... 86 Gross Domestic Product...... 103

Banking: Special Liquidity Scheme...... 87 Health: Contaminated Blood Products...... 104

Banks: Fees and Charges ...... 87 Health: Drugs ...... 105

Banks: Lending...... 88 Health: Fertility ...... 105

Births: Statistics...... 89 Health: General Practitioners ...... 106 Bribery Act 2010...... 90 Health: GP Commissioning Board ...... 106 Charities: VAT ...... 90 Health: Haemophilia ...... 107 China...... 92 Health: Influenza...... 107 Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Myalgic Encephalomyelitis...... 92 Health: Polio...... 108

Commonwealth Countries: Accession to the Throne...... 93 Health: Spending Cuts...... 109

Constitutional Convention ...... 93 Homelessness...... 109

Consular Services ...... 94 House of Lords: Catering ...... 110

Debt: Public Sector...... 94 House of Lords: Website ...... 110

Economy: Double-dip Recession ...... 94 Houses of Parliament: Mail...... 111

Education Maintenance Allowance ...... 95 Housing ...... 111

Education: Nurseries ...... 95 Immigration...... 112

Embryology ...... 96 Immigration: Deportation ...... 112

Energy: Gas ...... 99 Israel and Palestine: West Bank ...... 112

Energy: Light Bulbs...... 99 Israel: Trade...... 113

Energy: Photovoltic Installations ...... 100 Lebanon ...... 113 Col. No. Col. No. Local Government: Finance ...... 114 Safety: Standards...... 120

Mahmoud Abu Rideh...... 115 Schools: Male Teachers...... 121

Music and Dance Scheme...... 115 Schools: Secondary Schools...... 121

National Assembly for Wales: Referendum...... 115 Swine Flu...... 122

National Defence Authorization Act ...... 116 Syria ...... 122

National Minimum Wage ...... 116 Taxation: Avoidance ...... 123

North and South Korea ...... 116 Taxation: Capital Gains Tax ...... 123 Taxation: Code Errors ...... 124 Parliamentary Sovereignty...... 117 Taxation: Fuel Duty ...... 124 Pensions...... 117 Taxation: Income Tax ...... 124 Post Office: Credit Unions ...... 118 Taxation: Inheritance Tax...... 125 Prisons: Prison Officers...... 118 Taxation: VAT ...... 125 Public Expenditure ...... 119 Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Roads: Fatal Accidents ...... 119 Regulations...... 128 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL5102] ...... 121 [HL5646] ...... 88

[HL5254] ...... 115 [HL5652] ...... 126

[HL5301] ...... 114 [HL5653] ...... 126

[HL5434] ...... 95 [HL5661] ...... 126

[HL5543] ...... 102 [HL5662] ...... 127

[HL5582] ...... 84 [HL5663] ...... 127

[HL5600] ...... 86 [HL5665] ...... 109

[HL5603] ...... 85 [HL5671] ...... 122

[HL5607] ...... 96 [HL5673] ...... 104

[HL5608] ...... 96 [HL5675] ...... 101

[HL5609] ...... 97 [HL5676] ...... 119

[HL5610] ...... 97 [HL5689] ...... 102

[HL5611] ...... 97 [HL5691] ...... 101

[HL5612] ...... 98 [HL5705] ...... 81

[HL5614] ...... 95 [HL5707] ...... 81

[HL5622] ...... 103 [HL5715] ...... 110

[HL5628] ...... 114 [HL5716] ...... 110

[HL5638] ...... 125 [HL5717] ...... 110

[HL5639] ...... 124 [HL5719] ...... 104

[HL5640] ...... 118 [HL5726] ...... 87

[HL5641] ...... 115 [HL5730] ...... 82

[HL5645] ...... 88 [HL5731] ...... 83 Col. No. Col. No. [HL5732] ...... 83 [HL5877] ...... 118

[HL5735] ...... 103 [HL5880] ...... 91

[HL5737] ...... 121 [HL5882] ...... 105

[HL5740] ...... 117 [HL5883] ...... 109

[HL5752] ...... 90 [HL5885] ...... 128

[HL5753] ...... 90 [HL5893] ...... 120

[HL5754] ...... 90 [HL5901] ...... 100

[HL5757] ...... 112 [HL5902] ...... 116

[HL5762] ...... 107 [HL5904] ...... 88

[HL5763] ...... 90 [HL5905] ...... 107

[HL5764] ...... 84 [HL5906] ...... 94

[HL5775] ...... 124 [HL5913] ...... 123

[HL5778] ...... 123 [HL5921] ...... 87

[HL5780] ...... 119 [HL5932] ...... 103

[HL5783] ...... 115 [HL5935] ...... 113

[HL5789] ...... 108 [HL5937] ...... 113

[HL5790] ...... 108 [HL5938] ...... 114

[HL5798] ...... 111 [HL5940] ...... 108

[HL5799] ...... 111 [HL5942] ...... 99

[HL5811] ...... 102 [HL5945] ...... 94

[HL5813] ...... 124 [HL5947] ...... 86

[HL5814] ...... 88 [HL5948] ...... 94

[HL5820] ...... 85 [HL5949] ...... 111

[HL5827] ...... 117 [HL5950] ...... 110

[HL5839] ...... 125 [HL5954] ...... 106

[HL5845] ...... 92 [HL5956] ...... 106

[HL5847] ...... 82 [HL5960] ...... 112

[HL5858] ...... 93 [HL5961] ...... 116

[HL5859] ...... 118 [HL5966] ...... 99

[HL5861] ...... 122 [HL5968] ...... 93

[HL5869] ...... 98 [HL5970] ...... 92

[HL5870] ...... 91 [HL5971] ...... 113

[HL5872] ...... 116 [HL5990] ...... 105

[HL5875] ...... 85 [HL6074] ...... 89 Volume 724 Monday No. 99 24 January 2011

CONTENTS

Monday 24 January 2011 Introductions: Lord Dannatt, Lord Wigley, Lord Collins of Highbury ...... 671 Questions Constitutional Reform: Referendums ...... 671 Crime: Murder...... 674 Bill of Rights ...... 676 Bangladesh: Rapid Action Battalion ...... 678 Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (12th day)...... 679 Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2010 ...... 744 Rent Officers (Housing Benefit Functions) Amendments Order 2010 Motions to Annul ...... 780 Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2010 Rent Officers (Housing Benefit Functions) Amendments Order 2010 Motion to Resolve ...... 780 Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill Committee (12th Day) (Continued) ...... 781 City of London (Various Powers) Bill [HL] First Reading...... 836 Transport for London First Reading...... 836 Grand Committee Energy Bill [HL] Committee (3rd Day) ...... GC 115 Written Statement ...... WS 29 Written Answers...... WA 8 1