Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper Interview Date: 11/12/09 Location of interview: Stiffel Center, 6th and Porter, Philadelphia Interview conducted by Thomas Carroll with RA Friedman
Interviewer: So let‘s start with your name.
Nathan Pepper: Nathan Pepper. N-A-T-H-A-N P-E-P-P-E-R.
Interviewer: Okay, where were you born?
Nathan Pepper: I was born in South Philly at 350 Daly Street.
Interviewer: Where‘s that?
Nathan Pepper: That‘s, let‘s see that‘s a – do you know where Ritner Street is? Ritner, and then – Ritner, Wolf and then next is Daly.
Interviewer: So 300 block of Daly?
Nathan Pepper: Yes between 3 and 4.
Interviewer: Can I ask when you were born?
Nathan Pepper: Sure. July 20th, 1928.
Interviewer: And were you born in the house or born in a hospital?
Nathan Pepper: I was born in the house.
Interviewer: And who delivered you? Do you know anything about your circumstances?
Nathan Pepper: They had like a what do you call it a [inaudible], I don‘t know.
Interviewer: A midwife.
Nathan Pepper: Whatever they call them, yeah.
Interviewer: Was it family? You know was it like a family member who came and helped your mother deliver?
Nathan Pepper: If I don‘t tell, I don‘t know.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: Was that pretty common at the time in the neighborhood?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah in the neighbor, yeah a lot of us had it that way.
Interviewer: So they must have had someone who was specialized in that who could go from –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah I guess, I don‘t know how it worked.
Interviewer: Who were your parents?
Nathan Pepper: My parents were Charles and Beatrice Pepper. He came from Europe. He can from a little town in Galicia called Bershtein, it was called Bershtein, I guess it was outside of Poland. And then my mother came from Austria-Hungary --- which I think Hungary that was Sarajevo --- whatever it is, it must be a cosmos or whatever. But she came from there. They came around and then she came on a boat called Kaiser Wilhelm. And they docked at – I think they docked in Woodbine, New Jersey. At Woodbine he had a farm; my dad had a farm –
Interviewer: Your parents met here? Or did they meet –
Nathan Pepper: I guess they met there.
Interviewer: So they came together? Were they married when they came?
Nathan Pepper: No. No that was his second wife. No, that was his second wife. A little problem with his first wife. And he changed his name because it was Breiter. B-R-E-I-T-E-R.
Interviewer: B-R-E-I-T-E-R.
Nathan Pepper: Breiter, yeah. One of my brothers, he kept the name. He was killed in service. He went to New York and worked for [inaudible] and then we tried to get him out in service again. And they took him in and they killed him, 19 – I think it was 1944 in Manila in the Philippines, he was in the Philippines. He was going to get married but it [inaudible] went away until he came out of the service.
Interviewer: So your brother had that name, your father‘s provisional name.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: And then your father changed that name.
Nathan Pepper: Yes, because he wanted nothing to do with that. He was a loner.
Interviewer: Was he here at the time in the U.S.?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah he was here.
Interviewer: Yeah. What kind of work did he do?
Nathan Pepper: He was a – first he was a vest maker and then he worked for the army, he worked as a – I mean they had a project, army coats he used to fix pocket, make pockets for the army coats, winter coats. The winter coats.
Interviewer: In Philadelphia?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah I believe so. It was 26th and Reed I think it was. There was a place there. Teitelbaums or something. I don‘t remember.
Interviewer: 26th and Reed.
Nathan Pepper: 26th and Reed. It was – that was all shops there. They were all like a lot of tailor shops and stuff like that.
Interviewer: Did either of your parents ever talk about coming over or what it was like?
Nathan Pepper: No, they didn‘t talk much about that.
Interviewer: What about the old country about certain – ?
Nathan Pepper: No, no, no, they didn‘t tell me much that.
Interviewer: What was your mother‘s family name?
Nathan Pepper: Sanft. S-A-N-F-T.
Interviewer: Sanft.
Nathan Pepper: I think she had a brother in Florida as far as I know.
Interviewer: So you father had a farm –
Nathan Pepper: A little farm, yeah a little farm.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: And where was that did you say?
Nathan Pepper: In Woodbine, New Jersey.
Interviewer: And that‘s where the boat had landed. So he got off the boat and he settled there.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah. He settled there.
Interviewer: Was there a community? Were there other families there?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, it was all Jewish community there.
Interviewer: How did he get to Philadelphia from Woodbine? Why – did he ever talk about why he went [inaudible].
Nathan Pepper: Well maybe he did, I don‘t know. He never talked about it. They lived in a few places but he came to Philly. They lived on Titan Street and I think they lived on Reed Street and Daly Street now, then they lived in this place you know before he passed away it was Ritner Street on 5th and Ritner.
Interviewer: He was a farmer. He worked, he had a farm?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah he had a farm. Yeah we were farmers, like chickens and stuff like that.
Interviewer: But he also had a trade.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, he got a trade later on. Yeah he had a trade from the old country, he had a trade.
Interviewer: So he learned that there. He learned to sew or to make –
Nathan Pepper: Well he was doing that in Europe. He was doing that type of work.
Interviewer: So you were born in 1928 in the house, on Daly Street. What do you remember about the neighborhood coming up as a boy?
Nathan Pepper: Well the street that I lived in was mostly Jewish but we had a few – like German, we had a few Irish in there, a little bit there and that down that street. Yeah, it was a good street. We had no problems till some family moved in, an Italian family and they were very
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
aggressive with the Jews you know, they didn‘t like them. We had – in fact in our family we [inaudible] you know.
Interviewer: Your family didn‘t get along with them?
Nathan Pepper: Not the [inaudible]. And she wanted to save them, she said the whole street it was going to get you [inaudible].
Interviewer: And when was this? This was in the –
Nathan Pepper: Oh this was I think in the ‗40s.
Interviewer: Was the war on at that time? Were you like a teenager?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, I was like a teenager.
Interviewer: And that was the only Italian family on the block.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, well there might have been one or two there.
Interviewer: They have kids? There was a kids [inaudible]
Nathan Pepper: Yeah they had kids too.
Interviewer: And they played with you and everybody got along they –
Nathan Pepper: They were bad, they were bad. I can‘t – no I can‘t say much about that.
Interviewer: What language – did you grow up speaking English? Were your parents –
Nathan Pepper: No, I spoke English. My parents spoke – they spoke Yiddish in the house or their dialect was like Polish and when they didn‘t want me to know anything so they spoke different language you know.
Interviewer: So you didn‘t grow up speaking Yiddish at all.
Nathan Pepper: No. No, no, I spoke English.
Interviewer: Could you understand any?
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, I understand Yiddish good. Yeah, I understand that. I speak Yiddish. I read Hebrew. Well, I went to Hebrew school so -
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
-- went through the one and the biggest in the city was called the – the [inaudible] that one the Catholics, turning Catholic. Yeah I went there.
Interviewer: Weren‘t there neighborhood schools that you could have gone to?
Nathan Pepper: Well there was some JCCs – no, I went to regular school.
Interviewer: No, I mean like for the Hebrew.
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah there was a JC1 and JC2 like this was JC – I went with JC2 or something this was [inaudible].
Interviewer: They sent you to the Stiffel Center.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah. The Jewish Community Center.
Interviewer: So going back to the home life before we move on to the neighborhood, I‘m interested in just the Jewishness of your household.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah.
Interviewer: Food, language.
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, we were kosher. My dad was very Orthodox, what they call Ultra-Orthodox. He was almost like a rabbi – whenever they wanted to ask him questions like the asked a rabbi, they would ask him in the street different –
Interviewer: People would come to him?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, people would come to him.
Interviewer: And what kind of questions would they be? About observance?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah about observance, about the deaths. How you go about – how you prepare you know, he knew all that. He was very intelligent.
Interviewer: So you were born in the house and a lot were born in the house at that time, what about death preparations and – was that also done at home?
Nathan Pepper: Uh.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: When someone died was the body prepared, washed and prepared in the home?
Nathan Pepper: No, no, no. They have to go to a certain circle, they call that, what the heck do they call that? Chevra kadisha, they call it. It‘s a organization. Chevra kadisha. They do all the body washing only.
Interviewer: Right, so the body [inaudible].
Nathan Pepper: They had to be kosher, they had to be. They can‘t break the laws.
Interviewer: Right, they had to have been observant Jews.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah they had to be observant.
Interviewer: So you were brought up in a conservative household, in an Orthodox –
Nathan Pepper: An Orthodox household, but I was more or less liberal – I tried to be you know. I wasn‘t as observant as my dad. He tried to teach me, but I was more Americanized.
Interviewer: Was he accepting of that? What was his response?
Nathan Pepper: Well yeah, he says as long you follow the laws, go to school, this and that, you know. Get an education, get married, things of that stuff.
Interviewer: So he was interested in you advancing.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, sure.
Interviewer: And where did your liberalism come from, was it just being an American kid on the block?
Nathan Pepper: Well I used to love to play baseball and sports and you know, when they had no in [inaudible], I was out there playing ball or something you know things like that. These things balled me out and stuff like that.
Interviewer: About doing that.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah about doing that. Sometimes they caught me on a Saturday playing baseball in the park and he pulled me in.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: Would he come looking for you?
Nathan Pepper: He was walking around and then he happened to see me and he pulled me – and he pulled me into the house.
Interviewer: How did he dress? Was his dress – could you pick him out as someone being extremely Orthodox by the way he dressed?‘
Nathan Pepper: Well when he went to synagogue he had the observant clothes, they had like – they wore like silk, like the jackets and the pants and stuff like that you know. In certain – because you couldn‘t mix materials because that‘s like mixing a sheep with a cow or a – two different animals on one you know. Like in Ark they had two of the same animals when they went in so that‘s the way it was. So you couldn‘t do – so if the material came from different animals you couldn‘t mix them. Like you couldn‘t have rayon or oralon or you know, stuff like that so, like it had to be all silk or all rayon, you know, that it couldn‘t be a mixture.
Interviewer: Or all wool or whatever it was.
Nathan Pepper: Or all wool, it couldn‘t be a mixture, no.
Interviewer: Did he sew his own clothes? He was a tailor.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, he made some of his own clothes yeah, made some of his own clothes.
Interviewer: Did people come to him for that to get –
Nathan Pepper: No, no, no.
Interviewer: Did he have a small business like a tailor shop or –
Nathan Pepper: He worked for a tailor shop. He had his shop but he had too much difficulties with his workers and they were like sabotaging and so he had to get rid of his shop. He had a lot of Italians in the shop that worked for him you know, so.
Interviewer: Sure because they are also tailors –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, that‘s right, they are also tailors yeah, sure.
Interviewer: But there was a clash there with the employees and the –
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: Yeah there was.
Interviewer: Did you say where the shop was located?‘
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, 26th and Reed.
Interviewer: Oh, I did – but I thought you said he had a smaller shop of his own?
Nathan Pepper: Oh I don‘t know where he had his own shop, no I didn‘t know where.
Interviewer: You don‘t remember going there as a boy?
Nathan Pepper: No, no idea. He tried to teach me, I wouldn‘t – I didn‘t.
Interviewer: Again going back to the household, were there foods – your mother was – kept kosher?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, oh yeah sure.
Interviewer: Do you remember any special –
Nathan Pepper: Well, like when she‘d get like the meat. It had to be salted to take the blood out of it. You know, you‘re not allowed to eat in the Jewish religion, you not allowed to eat blood you know, so they had to absorb the blood - the salt absorbed the blood and then the chickens they had to cut the necks a certain way you know. The shochet, they called it a shochet. We had to do that. They used to take it to him to do.
Interviewer: So she bought a live chicken –
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah she would buy a live chicken then take it to the chicken store.
Interviewer: They didn‘t do that at the store where she bought the chicken.
Nathan Pepper: No, no, no, no they didn‘t do that.
Interviewer: And did that person that she took it to, I‘m sorry for the detailed questions, but did she – when she took that chicken to the person for the ritual –
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah. We had to be observant. We had to be observant.
Interviewer: Was that at somebody‘s house or was it a small shop?
Nathan Pepper: No in a store – in the chicken store up there.
Interviewer: I see. And holiday meals were there any special things that you could remember about that? Family get-together or was it just your immediate family?
Nathan Pepper: No, it was our immediate family. We had like --- the Friday night --- challah, the wine you know, gefilte fish. The ritual was after they say the prayers with the candles, the woman makes the prayers over the candles and if you ever see it down here on Friday, if you‘re ever here on Friday they do that here. That‘s to bring in the Sabbath, then they have like they say the prayer over the wine, they make the prayer over the bread, and they do gefilte and then they do the soup and then they do the chicken, and then they do the dessert. And glasses too –
Interviewer: I was interested coming here during Sukkot –
Nathan Pepper: Oh, Sukkot, yeah.
Interviewer: – and here they have a – they build a –
Nathan Pepper: They build a – yeah but actually it shouldn‘t have been, it should be outside.
Interviewer: And that‘s what I‘m asking. Can you – did your family –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah we had it out in the yard. We build our own sukkah. We put the slats up, my brother and me we put the slats up and we put the curtain on the side yeah, and we had to make sure that the slats had air so you can see the star, the moon and stars. And we had benches and like chairs there and then the sukkah.
Interviewer: Did you father instruct you how to build a sukkah according to –
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah sure.
Interviewer: And that was your job, he didn‘t participate in that?
Nathan Pepper: Um, I might, I don‘t know, I don‘t remember.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: I know we‘re going back a long way.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah I don‘t remember.
Interviewer: So but growing up every year for Sukkot you build the sukkah then it came down?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah.
Interviewer: Did you save the wood for rebuilding or –
Nathan Pepper: For the next year. For the following year. Yeah.
Interviewer: And the material of the fabric –
Nathan Pepper: Until he passed away we would do it. I went my way and –
Interviewer: And were all the Jewish families on the block doing the same thing?
Nathan Pepper: I don‘t know. That I don‘t know.
Interviewer: So there wasn‘t a lot –
Nathan Pepper: I don‘t know if they were all observant, I don‘t know. I think we had the one rabbi on the street.
Interviewer: Once this was built and the benches were there and the fabric was up and the slats were up did you go inside and take a meal?
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a mitzvah you know, a commandment to do it. Yeah sure. My mother would give out the food to you through the window, the open window. And then she would come inside.
Interviewer: Then you‘d gather together as a family.
Nathan Pepper: And give the prayer. Yeah sure.
Interviewer: What year did your father die?
Nathan Pepper: I think the end of ‗60s I think.
Interviewer: So up until that time, this Sukkot was –
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: Oh being built.
Interviewer: – was being built every year.
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, every year yeah.
Interviewer: And you were observing that.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah. Up until I went to work for the government. That was in 1956. Then my dad was getting sick and so I used to work out there because the VA for Veteran‘s Administration was there. And I used to come home on the weekends.
Interviewer: Just one other question about this. Your synagogue, which one did you go to, was it a neighborhood?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, it was a neighborhood synagogue.
Interviewer: It was Orthodox synagogue.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah.
Interviewer: What was the name?
Nathan Pepper: The one I went to first was oh I think it was B‘Nai Israel or something like that, forgot the name of it.
Interviewer: Where was it?
Nathan Pepper: The closed up on 4th and Porter – oh no, no, no, the first one I went to was a – that‘s the one in my Europe early years when I was a young kid, it was a house on Jackson Street between 4th and 5th. It was near the corner and they used to pray in that house. They used as a synagogue. For the all the [inaudible] I can‘t think of it. Anyway it had all the things. It had the –
Interviewer: Menorah.
Nathan Pepper: – the menorah, the bema, the Torah, it had everything you know.
Interviewer: Was it on the first floor of the house?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah it was on the first floor.
Interviewer: And upstairs did people live there?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: I don‘t know, I don‘t remember that.
Interviewer: So that was on Jackson and –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah I was a young kid, yeah when I went there and then when I went to bar mitzvah, my dad was – belonged to another synagogue near Dickinson Street, it‘s called – I can‘t think of the name of that – oh Watkins Street, 6th and Watkins. That‘s where I got bar mitzvahed there at 6th and Watkins.
Interviewer: And the Hebrew school though, in preparation for the bar mitzvah was at –
Nathan Pepper: 3rd and Catherine.
Interviewer: – 3rd and Catherine. So you went – you didn‘t go to one of the local –
Nathan Pepper: No, no. That was more Orthodox than –
Interviewer: The one on Catherine Street.
Nathan Pepper: No, the one on Catherine Street was more Orthodox than these JCCs. They‘re more conservative Orthodox.
Interviewer: I see. So maybe we could talk for a few minutes about the neighborhood.
Nathan Pepper: Sure.
Interviewer: And RA wants to ask a couple of questions at some point of his own, but let‘s talk about the neighborhood, what do you remember about the place? You see we‘ve already went and touched upon this.
Nathan Pepper: Well the businesses were practically all Jewish. They had a synagogue practically on every corner – every other corner. They had more synagogues then bars, let‘s put it that way, fortunately, or churches as more synagogues. 7th Street was all Jewish, was all businesses. Like the Orientals have it – it‘s all Jewish it was. It was all Jewish. And you see any Jewish writings on it like the Orientals have it, the Chinese and the Cambodians and stuff like that.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: So the signs above the doors that announced the businesses were Hebrew?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, Hebrew. They were all Hebrew most of them.
Interviewer: And when you went into those stores could you hear Yiddish being spoken?
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Interviewer: So customers would speak Yiddish with the –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah. Oh yeah it was Yiddish.
Interviewer: And that‘s where your parents shopped?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, oh yeah.
Interviewer: For everything? Or were there things they went outside the neighborhood for?
Nathan Pepper: Maybe to get the real Jewish challah. You used to go about 3-4 blocks above – I think on McKean Street, they had these real kosher you know. That‘s why we bought it there.
Interviewer: On this side of Broad or the other side of Broad?
Nathan Pepper: No on South of Broad.
Interviewer: Yeah on this side. This side of Broad.
Nathan Pepper: As you go North it‘s on the left hand side, if you go North.
Interviewer: On McKean?
Nathan Pepper: On 4th Street.
Interviewer: On 4th Street.
Nathan Pepper: There was a bakery shop there.
Interviewer: So was there a connection between the two commercial – you know you had fabric row on 4th Street, and there were Jewish merchants on South Street too for that area.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: Yeah sure.
Interviewer: So you had South Street, 4th Street, and 7th Street.
Nathan Pepper: And 7th Street.
Interviewer: Was there a kind of a flow between those commercial districts or did people from 4th Street neighborhood shop there, was 4th were specialized?
Nathan Pepper: No, no – whenever you felt like shopping, it was up to the individual. They want to shop, it‘s kosher, they want to shop that spot go ahead. Yeah, it‘s like a chicken store, you wouldn‘t go to an Italian chicken store, you‘d go to a kosher chicken store.
Interviewer: Did you do any work? Did you grow up like working in the shops or working for another business?
Nathan Pepper: No. When I was – I worked – here‘s an incident, I worked – my dad got me a job, which is very Orthodox, he owned a grocery store, this guy owned a grocery store. It was only on a Sunday and I think I made a dollar, I was about 12-years-old or something like that, so I made dollar and all I can eat. So I had to do a certain job, I had to take like a wheel barrel and get 100 – I don‘t even weigh 100 pounds, I had to get 100 pounds flour and they put it on this wheel barrel and I take this tour on 7th Street on H.L. Cohen, his name was Cohen, he had two stores.
Interviewer: Cohen?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah. So I went there, so I took it, he came out and he says bring it in. I said what do you mean bring it in? He says well lift it up and bring it in he said. I‘m not going to lift that up I says. And so he called my boss and so my boss fired me. I only weighed about 90 something pounds.
Interviewer: This was like 1940 right. You were about 12 so.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah sure.
Interviewer: So you had to get the flour from one location, bring it to the other –
Nathan Pepper: Bring it to the other location. Yeah.
Interviewer: Um-hum, what was the first location where you got the flour?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: On Snyder Avenue. 5th and Snyder.
Interviewer: And what kind of a place was it? Was it just a warehouse?
Nathan Pepper: It was a store, it was a store.
Interviewer: So you were just going back between the two stores?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah.
Interviewer: So did you last – you lasted one day.
Nathan Pepper: No, no, less than 3 days. That was it--- that was it. Yeah why not. I don‘t mess with them so.
Interviewer: Following that what other kind of work did you do?
Nathan Pepper: You mean full time or?
Interviewer: Well just as a kid trying to make some extra money in the neighborhood.
Nathan Pepper: I used to go in the park, we used to sell polly seeds and pumpkin seeds in the basket, we used come along. The seniors – we would sell to them you know.
Interviewer: Seniors, so where – you got them – did you get them from the woman who had the bus score?
Nathan Pepper: Yes, yes, she had polly seed place on 7th Street.
Interviewer: And what was her name? You remember her, she was a big woman. Lena described her as a very big woman.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah she was. I can‘t remember the name though. Oh wait her son was Danny Rubenstein. Rubenstein it was.
Interviewer: And a first name?
Nathan Pepper: No, don‘t know her first name.
Interviewer: So you would buy the seeds from her –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah we‘d get the seeds from her.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: And what park did you go to?
Nathan Pepper: Right around the corner where I lived, called Mifflin Square.
Interviewer: So what was Mifflin Square like in those days?
Nathan Pepper: Well it was – the older people they‘d sit there and play cards and stuff like that and converse. You know, some would drink a little beer.
Interviewer: Are these all Jews or were they Italians or it was all mixed?
Nathan Pepper: No, no, no, no, mixed, mixed, no. This was all mixed. You know all nationalities. A lot of them were tailors too [inaudible]. There‘s one tailor, I don‘t remember his name, he went crazy had an argument with some guy in a card game or something, so he come back later on and he had a gun –
Interviewer: He shot him.
Nathan Pepper: He didn‘t shoot him no, he threatened him. He threatened with a gun.
Interviewer: And this was in the park? Was it in the business –
Nathan Pepper: In the park it was.
Interviewer: How old were you?
Nathan Pepper: I don‘t know I wasn‘t in the park at the time. How old was I? I don‘t know 11, 12, I don‘t know how old I was at that time. But we used to respect the old people, the older people in the park. And we had like they had a bocce court. They used to let us bocce with them.
Interviewer: The Italians did?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah. No we had some Jewish, they used to play I think for a quarter.
Interviewer: So the Jewish people played bocce.
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah there was some Jewish people that played bocce yeah.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: And this was set up in the park, in Mifflin Square?
Nathan Pepper: In the park we had it, yeah.
Interviewer: Where?
Nathan Pepper: Right in the middle – well it would be in one of the portions of the park you know, it‘s like divided in different sections you know how it is. So they‘d – we set up a – like they have in parks here, they have a sort of bocce, yeah then they have the volleyball games you know.
Interviewer: And so what other games did you play in the neighborhood when you [inaudible]
[Crosstalk]
Nathan Pepper: When I played, when I played in the neighborhood we played block ball in the street. We played hose ball where a guy would throw a half of tire or part of a tire cut it up and throw it at – and you swing at it.
Interviewer: They call that hose ball?
Nathan Pepper: Hose ball, then we played the half ball – well we cut a ball, tennis ball or pimple ball we‘d cut it in half, do different things with it. And I pitched, I played a lot. I was a – I had a pretty good arm when I was younger. The neighbors – we played like block ball and the neighbors would scream at us the cars, the cars, they‘re hollering you now.
Interviewer: What was block ball, I‘ve not heard that?
Nathan Pepper: Block ball is a form of scoring on the first, second, third and home, right. And you throw it and you slap – you slap the ball.
Interviewer: With your hand?
Nathan Pepper: With your hand.
Interviewer: So what kind of ball was it?
Nathan Pepper: It was more or less like a pimple ball.
Interviewer: Just a little pink –
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: No, it‘s a ball but they had like little points, little notches on the ball. You don‘t see them today.
Interviewer: Pimple ball, were they hard or soft?
Nathan Pepper: Some were hard and some were tough to hit, yeah some was – you had to usually go up to the ball.
Interviewer: Yeah right, um. And so for hose ball though you used a – what did you use for a bat?
Nathan Pepper: We used a stick, used a stick.
Interviewer: Like a broom stick?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah like a broom stick.
Interviewer: And did you, can you describe – how many guys would play?
Nathan Pepper: Played stick ball too.
Interviewer: Maybe you could – if you were getting – putting a hose ball game together, what would you do, how many guys would you need? Where would you play?
Nathan Pepper: That was only – each opponent you know.
Interviewer: Just two guys.
Nathan Pepper: Two guys that‘s all it was, two guys. It wasn‘t like you had to catch the ball. You just had to hit it in a certain area. It was a single, a double –
Interviewer: Right, how far the ball went to.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, how far it went.
Interviewer: Yeah, and you didn‘t run in hose ball?
Nathan Pepper: No we didn‘t run. No.
Interviewer: Did you pitch against a building? Like against a school?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, in a school yard. I remember we used to take a tennis ball or a pimple ball like they called it, and they had a screen in front of the school building, and then that was used as the plate you know, as a plate. And we‘d go to a certain line, we‘d have to go behind that line and throw the – and you put all kind of curve ball and knuckle ball, kind of like a regular baseball game, but we didn‘t run. We never ran. We had like if you hit it on the roof it‘s a home run you know.
Interviewer: And you were a particularly good pitcher?
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah. I was a good hitter in that game too. I hit – one year I had 424 home runs. I beat Babe Ruth in that.
Interviewer: And so how – you coming up now, you‘re now going in through the ‗30s into the ‗40s and at a certain point you said by ‗56 you got the job at the Coatesville was it?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah I had a few different jobs. I worked at a place called – my first full time job my dad got me, he knew the guy, it was called Belmont Products. We used to make these jack-in-the- boxes and these novelties. So one day I‘m there, it was a hot summer day I remember, and we were doing this like piece work on these machines, they had like a cable on it you know, and to press down the jack-in-the-box, the doll, you know the material. And it plated – it made the imprint of the doll. So I was there putting my hand in there you know, it was hot and all of a sudden I put it too long I let it stay long and thing came down on my hand and it cut me, but it wasn‘t a sharp part that got to me it was the other part. But it is funny, not funny really because I was saying, my hand, my hand you know.
Interviewer: Were you caught in there?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah I was caught with the cables and a guy – the maintenance man had to come over and cut the cable. So he cut the cable, it was bleeding naturally. They took me to the corner to take me to the hospital. They got their car, it was flat tired. They got a flat tire and when then did get ready they took me to the – instead of the nearest hospital they take me to their insurance hospital. So by the time the tendon dried up on me and my fingers, I couldn‘t like – they were like this, I couldn‘t move them. So one day after I got out of the hospital you know, so I was messing around with a football with a guy who was throwing the football. And I went to catch it with the other arm, because I want to catch the ball one
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
handed and I caught it the force of the football put me down and my hand went down to the – the bad hand went down and they all start moving except one finger. So it was like this so that the fingers were like this, so I said Jesus I can‘t leave it like that I said. So they grafted from here – they grafted I had a – right here, they grabbed the skin to get it up to get the – but they never, never really – it was like arthritic. But I did everything. I played ball, I played – I was going to be a major league baseball but that stopped me, that it stopped.
Interviewer: Was that your pitching arm?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah.
Interviewer: You‘re left handed?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah. But I played baseball, you know soft ball, then I played football and I played bas – not basketball, um I played golf you know. And bowling, I was a good bowler, pretty good bowler. I was on television one time. Remember that show bowling for dollars?
Interviewer: Yes I do.
Nathan Pepper: I was on that as champion. Yeah, I think I made $50 on the show at that time.
Interviewer: Where were you bowling? Was there an alley near?
Nathan Pepper: At 4th and it was a studio, they had a bowling lane at 4th and Market. I think it was channel 29 at that time.
Interviewer: And they had a bowling lane where they filmed those shows?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, they had a bowling lane. When the lights got me when I was under the lights when I was bowling. But I liked it. Yeah they set up these lights all around me you know.
Interviewer: How old were you when this happened with your hand?
Nathan Pepper: On that I was around – after I got out of school, I left school in 10th grade, I didn‘t like it.
Interviewer: What school, were you at Southern?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: I was at Southern, oh yeah. I left school and dad said, where you‘re going to work if you don‘t go to school? I got out and got a job.
Interviewer: At the novelty shop.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah.
Interviewer: Where was that first –
Nathan Pepper: And I had odd jobs. That was on Market Street too. Then I had odd jobs then I went to American News Company, I worked there two and a half years, then from there I went to work for the government and I took civil servant lessons [inaudible]. Until I became a supervisor when I left. About six years before I left I became supervisor.
Interviewer: But you were coming back weekends, so you had a connection with the neighborhood all through that.
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. When I came back most of the Jews, they were moving out.
Interviewer: Well that‘s what I‘m – that‘s the spirit of the question.
Nathan Pepper: They were moving out, moving out and around the ‗70s. They were starting to move out. They were branching out, you know, and the whole other you know – that time – the Jews was the first ones that came in or the Italians were there, we always had Italians but then the Orientals came, they started coming in.
Interviewer: Yeah, but when would that be like in the ‗80s maybe, late ‗70s?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah around, yeah late ‗70s.
Interviewer: So you‘re observing – you‘re coming in and out of the town from your job in Coatesville and you‘re observing this change a little differently than others.
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah. I was surprised, you know I was – a lot of stores changed—the ones I used to go to. We had like Father and Sons, they were no more there, Gary‘s Men Shop wasn‘t there and where I bought my suits, Sam‘s Clothing, so it wasn‘t there. And then they had an appliance store wasn‘t – you know they were all moving out. They all moved out.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: They had all been on 7th Street.
Nathan Pepper: Along 7th Street. Yeah we did most of our business on 7th Street.
Interviewer: Did you maintain the house here and a connection to the neighborhood all the way through, like do you live in the neighborhood now or do you live elsewhere?
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, I live in the neighborhood. Over at the [inaudible].
Interviewer: So you‘ve continue to be here for all of your life –
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: Why?
Nathan Pepper: That‘s a good question. Well first I was so used to it you know- used to my friends that were here you know till they started to slowly drift away you know, and I was going to go Israel one day to work. They asked me if I wanted on the trucks, maintain them you know, maintain the trucks. It was after the Yom Kippur War, I think it was.
Interviewer: After ‗67.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, after ‗67. I decide, nah. My dad never saw Israel either.
Interviewer: Did he ever talk about wanting to go or?
Nathan Pepper: Well, his thing was that Israel is not as an observant country like it should be like God when he gave when Abraham – when he gave the land to Abraham, it was suppose to be observant you know, and they weren‘t following the laws, so my dad you know he was too strict, so he wouldn‘t go there.
Interviewer: You know I did want to ask you this, earlier you were talking about an Italian family who were taunting the Jews, that was around 19 – you‘re setting that around 1940 now.
Nathan Pepper: Eventually we had a petition to get them out of there.
Interviewer: Oh you did?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: And they were [inaudible].
Nathan Pepper: They were disruptive, they were disruptive. I had a fight with one of the kids and my brother had a fight with another one.
Interviewer: And did they leave finally?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah they left.
Interviewer: What I wanted to ask you about is what was happening in World War II, you know in Germany, Hitler, the Holocaust. At some point that had to penetrate because here we had a heavily Jewish neighborhood right, so with a lot of people from that part of the world, where – did that become part of public awareness at some point? What was the community response to that locally?
Nathan Pepper: Oh sure.
Interviewer: What was happening?
Nathan Pepper: We were concerned about what was happening in Europe. Everyone was concerned.
Interviewer: And from what point of time from the ‗30s, from the –
Nathan Pepper: From around yeah – around the ‗30s.
Interviewer: When Hitler [inaudible]
[Crosstalk]
Nathan Pepper: When Hitler [inaudible] when he wanted to – we were disgusted and even in the synagogues we said, why did it happen? Things of that sort. Could it have been avoided you know, we discussed all that. Because my brother he built bridges with Patton – with his third army, he was in the combat engineers so he used to see guys getting blown right up you know, with the mines, blown up.
Interviewer: What was your brother‘s first name?
Nathan Pepper: Joe. He‘s here, he‘s here.
Interviewer: He‘s at the Center?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: Yeah he‘s at the Center.
Interviewer: And Joe is the one that kept your father‘s original name? Was it Joe that kept your father‘s name?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah we all did. Oh you mean the Breiter?
Interviewer: Yeah, Breiter.
Nathan Pepper: No, the one that got killed.
Interviewer: Oh he was killed, I‘m sorry right.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah he‘s the one that kept the name.
Interviewer: Right, I forgot.
Nathan Pepper: Because he lived in New York. He worked in New York so he lived in New York. Lived with my uncle, my dad‘s brother.
Interviewer: And you know I asked a little bit about the war but – and you mentioned Israel too, was there a stir of interest? Now your father wasn‘t, but when Israel was established you know, after the war.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah well they took in a lot of refugees. They took a lot of refugees that were in the Holocaust.
Interviewer: And were there Jews in this South Philadelphia neighborhood who [inaudible] have gone there?
Nathan Pepper: There was some, there was some from the Holocaust. In fact there was one from – a couple from here that was a – was here at the senior‘s center that were – spoke about the Holocaust, where they were in. They were survivors.
Interviewer: Were there Jews in the neighborhood who thought about going to Israel after it was established? Did Israel create a stir, that it‘s – founding of Israel in 1949?
Nathan Pepper: No, not necessarily, no. They wanted to be here, around here because it was too much fighting there you know what I mean? All kinds of fighting and they didn‘t want that part you know. Here they thought they were safe you know.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: What do you think made the change in the neighborhood with the Jews moving out, in your mind?
Nathan Pepper: Well they figure a lot of these Jews they were getting older, they‘re getting older, they don‘t have no jobs. They retire. They‘re only on fixed incomes you know what I mean. So the businesses are losing money that way, they don‘t spend as much.
Interviewer: So they were moving on to –
Nathan Pepper: So they‘re moving on, yeah they‘re moving on, yeah. The ones that had the money, they left you know. They wanted better housing and you know like anybody else. Anybody else would do.
Interviewer: Um, I mentioned earlier that R.A. had some questions. R.A. do you want to ask?
R.A.: Yeah, yeah actually I just have one, I was just curious if you know, you mentioned that I guess your grandparents came from – or your parents, your parents came from the old country, did they bring any songs with them? Did you sing? Are there any titles that you remember singing either in Yiddish or in Hebrew?
Nathan Pepper: Only Yiddish songs, they‘re all the same. They were nothing special.
R.A.: So it‘s basically sort of the popular canon as they say, like ―Degrena Cousineau,‖ ―Lena from Palestina,‖ ―Yoma Yoma,‖ ―Dana Dana.‖
Interviewer: Do you remember that? Do you remember ―Dana Dana‖? Can you sing it?
Nathan Pepper: Yes, oh yeah.
Interviewer: Can you sing a phrase of it or two?
Nathan Pepper: I don‘t remember the words.
R.A.: Oyfn furl ligt a kelbl, Ligt gebundn mit a shtrik, Hoykh in himl flit a foygl –
Nathan Pepper: I don‘t know that one.
R.A.: You don‘t know that one?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: No.
R.A: Yeah, it‘s like a parable. You know it‘s like a bound calf, I think it‘s meant to be like a metaphorical. No.
Nathan Pepper: No.
R.A: No.
Nathan Pepper: ―Dana Dana‖ I‘ve heard of. I‘ve heard of ―Dana Dana.‖
R.A: Did you sing as a family? Did you get together and sing around the piano?
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, well we used to sing, in fact we used to like my brother he used to get a comb, he‘s like a musician you know like a – he played a musical comb. I used to play on the ashtray the drums it was fun and all that stuff. We played, we sang, we sang in the house, we sang songs on a Saturday, on a Friday night rather, we sang, or on a holiday on Passover. [inaudible] everything, yeah.
R.A: [inaudible]
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, all that yeah we sang them songs. And what was it – what was that word um I can‘t think of the song we used to sing, yeah we all used to get – we used to sing. Sing in the Synagogue, we used to sing some old songs. ―Shalom Aleichem,‖ [inaudible], we sang all those songs.
R.A: And you had a piano in your house?
Nathan Pepper: No.
R.A: No.
Nathan Pepper: No, we didn‘t have nothing, we didn‘t have nothing like that no.
R.A: So you sung acappella and just did the best you –
Nathan Pepper: It doesn‘t – I do a lot of like MC-ing here, I do MC-ing. I sing a lot. Sing with karaoke and that. Sing different songs. Well my brothers – we were into the big band era. When big band era – we used to – in fact he listed, when they ask you to list the top ten
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
tunes, well he would list top ten tunes and he would win a tin of cigarettes for doing it, from Lucky Strike. Lucky Strike had that.
Interviewer: So this is like Harry James and –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah and Benny Goodman, Gene Cooper yeah. Duke Ellington, Teddy Wilson, who else, Artie Shaw, Tommy Dorsey, Jimmy Dorsey, yeah Frank Sinatra, Tony Martin, we loved that. I sing today some songs like from Dean Martin and Al Jolson, oh that‘s way back. Al Jolson I‘d sing. I love Frank Sinatra songs— to sing his songs.
Interviewer: You‘ll sing karaoke.
Nathan Pepper: Like ―My Way,‖ yeah with the karaoke. Or ―A Summer Wind,‖ I sing that song too. ―The summer wind, the autumn wind, across the sea.‖ There you go. Yeah I like to sing.
Interviewer: So when you think of songs and growing up, the songs you really identify with are those.
Nathan Pepper: Yes.
Interviewer: Not the Yiddish songs so much of the songs you sang –
Nathan Pepper: Oh, we knew the Yiddish songs too, yeah.
Interviewer: That‘s still with you?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah sure.
Interviewer: And when you played the comb and the ashtray, I mean –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, my brother played.
Interviewer: What kind of songs were you – what kind of music was that?
Nathan Pepper: ―Give my Regards to Broadway.‖
Interviewer: Popular stuff.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah. Or, ―You Are My Sunshine,‖ things like that you know.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: To note is there any Yiddish song you remember that you want to sing, you sang a little bit of one of the popular songs.
Nathan Pepper: Well there was ―My Yiddish Mama.‖ I don‘t know how to sing that song. It was really sad. I sang it here too. And also [inaudible], that was another sad song.
Interviewer: Do you want to sing one for the tape?
Nathan Pepper: I don‘t know that one for the words. I know that song – I‘m trying to think of which one I know. I know a Hebrew song but a – [singing Hebrew song] and so forth and so on.
Interviewer: When was the last time you sang that song before today?
Nathan Pepper: I sing it - sometimes we sing it here in the synagogue, we sing it on Saturday.
Interviewer: So that‘s a current – that‘s something that‘s still with you.
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, yeah. Hank Callahan is another one yeah.
Oray: What synagogue are you with now?
Nathan Pepper: I‘m affiliated – well I was affiliate – like I told you years ago, well now I‘m affiliated with this Adath Shalom, which they turned into a, what do you call it monks or whatever they are, they‘re –
Interviewer: Oh at 6th and Ritner.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: The Cambodian temple, yeah.
Nathan Pepper: Cambodian yeah, temple yes. Then I go to the [inaudible] and Moyamensing, and then I help make a minyan at 4th Street, 4th and –
Interviewer: Oh you do.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, 4th and above Snyder – Emily.
Interviewer: Emily, yeah.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: We had a guy he was head of the synagogue, his name was Al Heller. He also was head of one of the organizations in the Mummers Parade, the Goodtimers, I don‘t know if you heard that? He was a head of that – a young guy, he died young. And then this guy Ricky, they wanted to close the synagogue, so Ricky, you know he‘s oh [inaudible]. So he took it over you know. We got donations, like I gave, everybody gave to keep the – fix it up and what not.
Interviewer: Yeah this is the one on 4th Street.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, we had an architect and –
Interviewer: They have a website, I‘ve seen their website right, there‘s something online for –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah for them I guess, yes they do.
Interviewer: So why is it important to save a place like that do you think? I mean people of –
Nathan Pepper: Because it‘s a sin to let something like that down, the synagogue – especially if it turned into a church or something like that. They want to keep it as is.
R.A: Right.
Interviewer: It‘s interesting to hear you say that there were synagogues on every other block –
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah.
Interviewer: – every other corner and now they‘re all gone.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, they‘re all gone. There‘s isn‘t too many – I think there‘s only two here. Two in South Philly and one most likely by the town like B‘nai Abraham and Society Hill and they had a couple of them.
Interviewer: Kesher Israel is on –
Nathan Pepper: Kesher Israel is another one yeah. I‘ve been going to Kesher Israel a lot.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: A lot of those buildings now though are converted to other uses, churches –
Nathan Pepper: Yeah they are.
Interviewer: You wouldn‘t know they‘re synagogues.
Nathan Pepper: Not, no they‘re gone. Even the Hebrew School was, I don‘t know what they made of that, the one I went to.
Interviewer: The one at Catherine?
Nathan Pepper: Catherine Street yeah, I don‘t know what that turned into. Housing, I don‘t know –
Interviewer: Anything else you want to – we‘re kind of winding down getting near the end of our time, is there something that you‘d like to say that I haven‘t asked you about or something about the neighborhood about – maybe about your involvement in Stiffel Center here?
Nathan Pepper: Oh I do a lot of volunteer and you know. Oh yeah there‘s one thing I want to tell you. Like I said I flunked English when I was in Southern right, so one day they asked me if I wanted to join the poetry class. I said a poetry class, I never even finished – I never even done any English. I says I won‘t do it – Ahh, she says, Lynn you know, Lynn Lizzy. Said, ahhh go try it. So this woman she was a professor from Swarthmore, so she comes around February, in February I don‘t know if I [inaudible] So I says – I told her, I said I don‘t know what I‘m going to do because I‘ve never done anything like this you know. She says, oh don‘t worry, don‘t worry, I‘ll have you reading poems, writing poems and everything she said to me. Okay.
So she gives it – she puts a few objects out on the table, like an apple, ball of yarn, a baseball. Now write about it she says. I said what? She says write about it. Write about you know. If you were involved in it and everything like that. So I start writing and I started getting, you know I liked it you know. Some I rhymed, some I didn‘t you know. Then I start writing about my family, about my knee when I had an operation, and then anything, like my girlfriend I wrote about and my sister and my brother got killed in the service, I start writing about him. My dad when he went to Synagogue, I start writing about him. Then I was writing things on the outside, before you knew it I had a book like that.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: Have you collected all this?
Nathan Pepper: But I was funny. They wanted me to – one of the girls, she got sick, she wanted me to publish it you know, and she had gave me – but she got sick you know, she never got around to it.
Interviewer: And so you gave her the material?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah she had – well she has it yeah, the material.
Interviewer: Are you still writing?
Nathan Pepper: A certain poem that I wrote that she liked. She wrote one, she got like $500, she wrote one. About one of her poems you know that she wrote. So she said maybe I might you know, she says you know, I‘ll try I says. I don‘t know.
Interviewer: And what did you think when you saw the baseball there, you must of – did you write about baseball?
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah sure, sure. I wrote about my hand, about everything you know, everything I could think of, I start writing. I wrote about the wars. I wrote about the, oh when the GIs were coming home and things like that, and the Second World War you know. [inaudible] terra firma and coming from Europe and you know all that so. Then they got me to join in a book club and I read books.
Interviewer: So here‘s somebody who failed English and now you‘re a writer. That‘s probably the best kind you know.
Nathan Pepper: Then I wrote about my brother, the pool pro you know.
Interviewer: He was a pool pro?
Nathan Pepper: Well he played good pool.
Interviewer: Was there pool bars around?
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah we played in a lot of pool rooms.
Interviewer: Where were they?
Nathan Pepper: There was one – 6th and – there was one on 6th and Jackson, one on 6th and Winton that we played a lot, also at 4th and Snyder
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Avenue in the middle of the block it was called Stanton Hall. Yeah they called it Stanton Hall. But they had a pool room on top.
Interviewer: Right, pool rooms are up on the second floor.
Nathan Pepper: Up on the second floor.
Interviewer: Always?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah.
Interviewer: I mean in all these cases?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah it was there for awhile – Leon‘s they called it Leon‘s.
Interviewer: What was on the first floor?
Nathan Pepper: Stanton Hall. A hall where they had bar mitzvahs and weddings you know.
Interviewer: And could anybody go in? Were they private or public?
Nathan Pepper: No you can go in. You mean the pool room?
Interviewer: Yes.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, anybody can go to the pool room sure. I met Mosconi one day.
Interviewer: Willy Mosconi. Where?
Nathan Pepper: I met him.
Interviewer: Tell me about that.
Nathan Pepper: He was at the Wyoming Avenue – they had a place there. There was a pool room there called Mosconi‘s. There was a place.
Interviewer: Oh.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah. I went and they were shooting. He seen me watch them. I wasn‘t playing pool, I was playing billiards, so he liked the way I played. Because I like billiards better than pool. You know what billiards are?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: Sure. You have no pockets.
Nathan Pepper: [inaudible] I like that. In fact I referee – when we had pin pool room over here, it was owned by Italians and it was owned by – it was three owners. And it‘s called Joe Pepe‘s Place, it was right on Oregon Avenue on Front Street.
[Break in tape]
Interviewer: Did you ever – you went there?
Nathan Pepper: I went there once or twice, that‘s all I went. It was a real small place. It was a very congested place, so I never went too much after. Mostly, when I was growing up, I played pool when I was – My brother was 11 years old, and he shined shoes there, and the guy that ran the pool room, he let him play on the back table to practice, on the back table, that‘s how he got so good, he was practicing when he was young, and he got so good.
Interviewer: Did he bring you into that or were you doing that –
Nathan Pepper: No, he brought me in. I never done that before. [inaudible] playing pool.
Interviewer: And where was that one that your brother was – where was that happening, where he was shining shoes?
Nathan Pepper: Oh, Sixth and Jackson.
Interviewer: What was the name of that place?
Nathan Pepper: DeClaudia‘s.
Interviewer: Another Italian owned.
Nathan Pepper: They were Italian owned.
Interviewer: But everybody went in there, so Jewish kids –
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah, anybody can go in. We had black kids going in, too. The manager had no problems there.
Interviewer: Did you play for money?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, we gambled. Some gambled small, and then when got more money, then everybody was gambling bigger. We gambled. I liked it. Now, I don‘t care too much.
Interviewer: These were friendly games, right? I mean, these were neighborhood people going to these pool rooms, and gambling?
Nathan Pepper: Oh yeah. When an outsider would come in, and shoot pool, they‘d look him over, don‘t worry, they‘d look him over. Must be like a hustler. They called them hustlers.
Interviewer: Well that‘s it. I wondered if you suspected personally.
Nathan Pepper: The thing is, my brother would shoot pool. I think it was Fourth Street, and who would come in, but Minnesota Fats. Remember Minnesota Fats? So he‘d ask my brother if he wants to shoot a game. So my brother knew who he was, you know, he says, yeah, I‘ll play ya, but what kind of odds you gonna give me, you know. That‘s nothing. He wouldn‘t give no odds. He wouldn‘t give no odds. He saw how good my brother was, and so he wouldn‘t give no odds.
Interviewer: But normally, for some lesser – For somebody who wasn‘t as skilled, he might give odds?
Nathan Pepper: Might have. Yeah, he might have.
Interviewer: So, did your brother play him?
Nathan Pepper: No, he didn‘t play him.
Interviewer: Because there was gonna be money on the table, right? It wasn‘t like it was just a friendly game, you were putting money down.
Nathan Pepper: Right.
Interviewer: What was typical in that?
Nathan Pepper: What do you mean?
Interviewer: Like how much money would you put down?
Nathan Pepper: At first, it was like, we used to play this game called – I don‘t know if you‘ve heard of it - Two fives they called it. The 2 was a money ball, and the 5 was a money ball, and the 10 was a money
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
ball, and the amount of points you made was money. If you hit the 2, then you get so much on that 2, but if you hit the 2, and the 5, right, and the other guy makes the 10, the 15, and the points, then he gets the money, even though you made the 2, and the 5. Yeah, so we used to start up with a quarter, then it became a dollar, you could lose good money that way.
Interviewer: Or you could walk away with nice money.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah. One day my brother was shooting with this guy, so he beat this guy for, so much money, and somebody was holding the money, he was so tired that he didn‘t know who the guy was that was holding the money. It was a friend of the other guys, so the guy ran out, and my brother was chasing him, and caught him.
Interviewer: Is that the brother who comes here.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah, he was a tough guy when we were younger. He was tough. He was a rough street fighter.
Interviewer: A street fighter.
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, when we were younger, we didn‘t take no guff from nobody.
Interviewer: Who were the guys you had conflict with, were they the guys that came into the neighborhood?
Nathan Pepper: There was one guy, I used to go to this neighborhood around near Porter Street, and so I wasn‘t a real good fighter, but I was a good wrestler, so this guy, he had some kind of argument, I don‘t remember what happened. He was bigger, bigger than me. I was a shrimp. So he goes after me, you know, so I grabbed him, and went, and dove for his feet, and they got him down, and I pinned him. I said you‘re mine now.
Interviewer: How old were you then?
Nathan Pepper: I was about 12 or something like that, 12 or 11. We had some good times. I remember the time this girl, she had a bike she was riding down the street – no, she was on skates, and she was skating down the street, and this guy came down the street. I remember his name was Freddy. Freddy Anzetti or whatever his name was. So, anyway, he had like an eagle on the bike. He hit her skate, and he crashed right into her thigh, the eagle part went right into her thigh, and she was laid up for a while with a gash right in there.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: Was the eagle part of the bike?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, it was part of the bike. In the middle of the bike, they have –
Interviewer: Like an emblem in the middle of the bike?
Nathan Pepper: Like an emblem, yeah, yeah. And then there was another story where somebody in the neighborhood had a BB gun, and was shooting it, shooting the BB gun, so a cop came around, and took the BB gun away from the guy, right, so he found out he gave it to his son, and he was using it. We used to fight different gangs, like we used to sling shot, like the Howard Street gang against the Daly Street gang.
Interviewer: What did you use to shoot?
Nathan Pepper: Sling shots.
Interviewer: Yeah, but what did you put in them?
Nathan Pepper: Little things –
Interviewer: Like little stones or something?
Nathan Pepper: Pebbles.
Interviewer: So nobody got hurt or anything?
Nathan Pepper: No, nobody got hurt. We aimed for the legs.
Interviewer: You didn‘t aim high, for like the eye or something.
Nathan Pepper: No. The same with the BB guns. We had BB gun fights too. I got put in jail for one, a BB gun fight.
Interviewer: What happened that time?
Nathan Pepper: Well, they caught me shooting a BB gun around the neighborhood, so they grabbed me—the cops grabbed me, and put me in the police station.
Interviewer: Where, at Eleventh and Wharton?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: No, it was around Fourth and Snyder, it was a place on Fourth and Snydet. They put me in lockup for a little while to cool me off.
Interviewer: Were you a kid?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, I was a kid.
Interviewer: Did your parents have to come, and bail you out or did you get –
Nathan Pepper: We didn‘t let our parents know. No, we didn‘t let our parents know that.
Interviewer: It‘s interesting. The picture you‘re painting of the neighborhood now is taking shape. It‘s interesting, you know, the BB guns, the little bit of gang stuff, the sling shots, you know, all that stuff, and you mainly stayed in your own neighborhood or did you venture forth into other neighborhoods?
Nathan Pepper: No, not much. We went to the schoolyard, at Taggert‘s schoolyard here down the street.
Interviewer: Down at Fourth Street?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, yeah. We used to have, like every Sunday, I was about 16, I think I was about 15 or 16, and every Sunday we had a softball game, baseball game, and I was pitching. I pitched softball, too. I liked to pitch, and it was hard what I did. I pitched a no-hitter in the schoolyard, putting stuff on the softball when I three it, and every Sunday, we would – It was so crowded, everybody wanted to play, but you couldn‘t play. Everybody couldn‘t play. We‘d get up about 8:00 in the morning to get to the game, you know, to be first, so we‘d get in the game. So they had three games, after that game there was another game, after that one was another game, so we had a triple header. So one day, I remember what happened, I came into the schoolyard, and they were throwing the ball around, and the third baseman is throwing to the first baseman, and I‘m talking to the first baseman, and the first baseman didn‘t pay attention, and the ball hit me right here.
Interviewer: This is softball?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah. I couldn‘t catch my breath for about 5 to 10 seconds [inaudible].
Interviewer: They threw it, or was it hit?
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Nathan Pepper: No, he threw it. Like practicing, before the game.
Interviewer: Your pitching softball was always underhand, right?
Nathan Pepper: Underhand, yeah.
Interviewer: You also pitched baseball, and hose ball was overhand pitching. You always put stuff on it?
Nathan Pepper: Stuff on the ball.
Interviewer: So were you known as a pitcher.
Nathan Pepper: Yup, oh yeah. I pitched Sandlot. I used to go to different cities, and pitch.
Interviewer: You know, you mentioned Sandlot. I did want to ask you when you mentioned it, just everybody playing ball, it was a schoolyard, but were there lots around where you could play also? An empty lot?
Nathan Pepper: There was a rec. They called it a rec, on Fourth and Oregon, it was a big building. A big place where they had basketball courts, baseball fields, sometime they had football, so all sports actually.
Interviewer: At the red center?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah, at the rec center.
Interviewer: So there wasn‘t a corner lot where you might go.
Nathan Pepper: No. There were a few a lots, yeah. We tried to make bases. We played ball there. But then we went to 20th at the car barn. I remember I was pitching against the Navy Yard there, at the car barn. That was hard ball I pitched there.
Interviewer: That was before your hand got hurt?
Nathan Pepper: Yeah. What time is it?
Interviewer: Yeah, I think we‘re probably –
Nathan Pepper: Wow, it‘s after 12:00 already, it‘s after lunch.
Journeys South A Project of the City of Philadelphia Mural Arts Program Interview with Nathan Pepper
Interviewer: You‘re kidding, is it after 12? Okay, let‘s call it there.
Nathan Pepper: I hope I gave you enough information.
Interviewer: You did. Yeah, it was great, thanks.
[End of interview]