Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 6 NOVEMBER 1941

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1104 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

SUPPLY. RES"UMPTIOK OF CO:MMI'l'~'EE-ESTIMATES­ NINTH ALLOTTED DAY. (Mr. Gair, South , in the chair.) EsTIMATEs IN CHIEF, 1941-1942. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS. POLICE INVESTMEKT BOARD. The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AF:FAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Ithaca) (10.il3 a.m.) : I move- " That £69,000 be granted for 'Police Investment Board.' '' This is the usual vote. It is £3,000 less this THURSDAY, 6 NOVEMBER, 1941. year than last year. Vote agreed to. Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. E. J. Hanson, Buranda) took the chair at 10.30 a.m. PRISONS. The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND QUESTIONS. HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, INCOME TAXATION, CANBERRA PRIVATE Ithaca) (10.34 a.m.): I move- HOTELS. ''That £42,658 be granted for Mr. PIE (Hamilton) asked the Treasurer- 'Prisons. ' ' ' " 1. Does the Canberra private hotel The vote shows an increase of £3,016, made up render to the State each year-(a) A of an increase of £438 in salaries and £2,578 balance-sheet or profit and loss account; for increased costs of maintenance-natur­ (b) a financial statement on the year's ally, the costs of the materials have risen­ activities; (c) any document giving details pay-roll tax of £720, £400 for a utility motor of their activities during each financial truck for the State farm at Numinbah, and period~ £250 as part of the cost of a truck for Palen '' 2. If any of the above are in the affir­ Creek farm. mative, can such documents be tabled~'' The increase in the amount of the vote is The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, not large. The number of prisoners is one Bremer) replied- higher this year than last year and eight higher than the year before. There has been "1. (a), (b), and (c). No. a continuous reduction in the number of "2. See answer to No. 1." prisoners from: 1932, when there were 3 73 prisoners, nine of whom were females. This Mr. PIE (Hamilton) asked the Treasurer- year we have 287 prisoners and only four "vVhat section or suhsection of the females. Crime, of course, has decreased Income Tax Assessment Act of 1936 or considerably in recent years, and as a conse­ other statute exempts the Canberra private quence there has been a decrease in the hotel from paying State income tax 1" number of prisoners. I do not think anybody will regret that decrease. An amount of The TREASURER (Hon. F. A. Cooper, useful work has been done and it is shown Bremer) replied- in the results of their labours at the Palen CreAk farm and the Numinbah State farm, " Section 13, subsection ( 5) of the as well as in the workshops at the Brisbane Income Tax Assessment Act of 1936." Prison. We have now only two enclosed MEN IMPRISONED FOR DISOBEYING prisons, Brisbane and . MAINTENANCE ORDERS. Mr. LUCKINS (Maree) (10.37 a.m.): I Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) asked think the time is opportune when the South the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs- Brisbane Prison could be transferred to the country, where conditions might perhaps be '' 1. vVill he state the number of men in better for the prisoners. I congratulate the the State prisons at 30 June, 1941, for Minister on the establishment of prison farms failing to support their wives~ because I believe they are in the interests of "2. What is the approximate cost per the prisoners and the State generally. annum of keeping such men?'' I was pleased to learn that there has been The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND a gradual reduction in the number of prisoners HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, in the last 10 years, a state of affairs that Ithaca) rep lie cl- speaks well for our society. In a community "1. Four prisoners for disobeying main­ such as ours, I do not think it will be neces­ tenance orders. s:uy to have prisons if we achieve the high ideals we have set ourselves. I think the '' 2. The net cost is £38 per annum for time is fast approaching when our existing each prisoner.'' prisons will be empty and the citizens of this Supply. [6 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1105

State will be looked upon as the most law­ who to prisoners says, ''You have had the abiding in the Commonwealth. The idea of broad-arrow on your back and so I must putting prisoners to farming operations is an shun you.'' That is not the Christian out­ excellent one, but I realise, of course, there look; it is a shocking outlook, and it should are some prisoneTs with whom we cannot take not be tolerated in this country. Too long liberties. has it existed here. Therefore, I should like to urge the Minister to make a grant to the I am sure the services given by prisoners Salvation Army and the William Powell Home to the community are appreciated. I take an if it is not already done. interest in the work and I take this oppor­ tunity of paying a tribute to those societies The Secretary for Health and Home and institutions that care foT dischnrged Affairs: They get grants. prisoners. The \Villiam Powell Home takes a very keen interest in the welfare of dis­ Mr. YEATES: Hear, hear! charged prisoners, and its work is appreciated Mr. NIMMO (Oxley) (10.43 a.m.): I rise by the public. I also pay my tribute to the to support the idea of the hon. member for Salvation Army for its splendid work over n Maree that the Boggo Road gaol should be number of years. It is pleasing to know that removed to some other site. It is rather an representatiYes of the Army make frequent eyesore on an important approach to the visits to our prisons nnd take into the cells city. that little bit of Christian sympathy that we have denied manv of our institutions in the I notice that the vote this year is £3,000 past. The Salvation Army is giving a wonder­ greater than it was last year although there ful service in our society to-day, and I hope are fewer prisoners, and I also notice that that it will go a long way in this direction the cost of maintaining each prisoner works and be justly rewarded. There are other out at £150 a year. organisations that give comfort to discharged The Secretary :for Health and Home prisoners in re-establishing them in society Affairs: The actual cost is £38 a year. none the worse for their experiences. Mr. NIMMO: On the total vote it works I suggest to the Minister that the GoveTn­ out at £150 a year. ment should help the Salvation Army finan­ cinlly in its splendid service to the community The Secretary for Health and Home in this respect and that perhaps the same Affairs: There are set-offs against that. could be done for other organisations that Mr. NIMlUO: It is a fairly large sum of carry out work of this kind. 'l'he members money, but, of course, an institution like this of these societies thoroughly understand must be maintained. An amount of £42,658 human feelings, they are kindness itself, and is required for the maintenance of 287 they undoubtedly are giving a wonderful service to the State. prisoners. I also desire to pay a tribute to the Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (10.41 prison reform work undertaken by the officers a.m.): I am very pleased to know that there of the Salvation Army. They do invaluable are fewer prisoners to-clay than there were work, not only to society, but to the depart­ some time ago. That is a good sign and ment administering this vote, especially in makes the outlook hopeful. I have been to the aid they give first offenders, many of the Boggo Road gaol, but it is some time ago whom are thus saved from becoming now. (Laughter.) Indeed, I was there twice. criminals. I am sure the Minister appre­ (Renewed laughter.) ciates this work of the Salvation Army and the people are under a deep debt of grati­ The Secretary for Health and Home tude to its officers for preventing many people Affairs: Then you are an old offender. from drifting into a career of crime. It is (Laughter.) uplifting to observe the ~ood work done by this body. The vote, £42,658, is a fairly large lUr. YEATES: However, I did not remain sum, but the Minister is administering the there long. I had a thorough look round at sub-department from the right angle-that is, everything and that is what the Minister has by adopting reformative methods. invited us to do. Has he not often said to hon. members, '' \Vhy not go and have a look The Minister might tell the Committee the at some of these institutions, such as the number of prisoners released last year on Bog go Road gaol and the Old Men's Home at parole under the measure passed by Parlia­ Dunwich?'' I have done that. I repeat ment for that purpose. Parliament should that I am very pleased that crime is on the know the number, and whether any such decrease. I thoroughly approve of the estab­ persons were returned to prison because of lishment of prison farms although they are breaches of the conditions of parole. really not prisons; they have gates without locks. That is the modern way of doing I have no serious fault to find with this things, and while it is successful I am with vote. It is hard that we should be called the Minister all the time. upon to find this money, but it is well spent in keeping behind iron bars criminals who I, too, should like to say something in favour would be a burden on society. of the Salvation Army and the William Powell Home and, indeed, for the members of Mr. DART (Wynnum) (10.47 a.m.): I any religious institution who will wait at the support this vote, which is a very reasonable gaol doors to meet a discharged prisoner. one. Its administration is in the hancls of I firmly condemn the attitude of the man competent officers. ll06 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

I endorse the suggestion for the removal confinement could be pro\·i

That was the only instance in which a comparatively recently. Hon. memberS' prisoner releaser1 on parole came back to us. remember the hue and cry that occurred after The success of that system in recent years the mail-train murders, and it is to be hoped has amply justified the Government in estab­ that the man who committed that crime win lishing it. never receiYe the benefit of anything the law of Queensland can give him. Mr. Maher: Did he prefer to stay in prison~ Mr. Maher: He ought to have been hanged long ago. The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AFFAIRS: He cleared out, but was Mr. BRAND: He should be kept in picked up shortly afterwards. He made a solitary confinement for the remainder of break to get away, but withdrew his parole his days. before he did so. The Secreta.ry for Health and Home Hon. members should know that the inmates Affairs: He is at useful work. of the prisons haYe done much work for the Mr. BRAND: I hope he will not get the department, civil -defence1 and patriotic pur­ poses. In their spare time they have made benefit that our latest system gives to articles to be disposed of for patriotic prisoners. I hope he is not going to be allowed purposes. They have made 20,237 civil­ to live at any of the prison farms, but that ilefence :umbands. They have Bl1Pl•lied he will be held in Boggo Road gaol for the gas rattles. They have made 45,679 sugar full term of his sentence. Such men should bags and 768 salt bags for use as sand bags not get these privileges. Discretion should for civil-defence pmposes. They hav·e also be used in the selection of prisoners to be made 1,000 reil bomb-screen danger flags and sent to the prison farms. No man should be 9 cases, and 27 coils of fire hose. Reserve allowed to go there if he is of a type similar supplies of medieal stores are stored in the to the one I have just mentioned. I believe prison where they will be safe. By and large, that the Minister will sec to it that such the work turned out by the prisoners is Yery callous murderers do not enjoy such a privi­ satisfactory. lege, when that might react to the detriment of law and order in this State. There are certain men in prison with whom no risks can be taken. Everybody knO\', s Jtir. BARNES () (11.2 a.m.): that, but the atmosphere is fairly good and There is nothing about a prison that I like. the majority of them are eager to do a decent I have been inside one, and I know what they job. They produce an immense number of are like. I spent three hours in the Bunda­ articles in the workshops. Recently, when berg gaol on one occasion because I would not we were preparing the air-raid precautions pay a £40 fine for trading after hours. I organisation, they decided to make a mobile was in gaol for having done something that tea canteen for the use of the air-raid precau­ everyone else is allowed to do. tions service. They worked very hard indeed, and turned out as fine a job as one could Prisoners are made to sleep on a concrete see anythere. It would cost a very large sum floor. If these human beings have done wrong of money indeed to get that mobile canteen -and I do not deny that they have, except, from outside sources. The man who painted of course, in my own case-why put them it worked through the 24 hours to get it on a conc1·ete floor to sleep~ Does medical finished in time for the big· blackout test. opinion agree with that~ It does not. If He wanted to have it finished by then. That these men have done wrong, then lift them is the atmosphere we should h~Ye in prisons. out of the mire into which they have got The prisoners know they are working out a themselves. Treating them in this way is debt to society, and will be giYen a chance only pushing them further into the mire. to do a decent job in society when they If we have to have prisons-and I say that come out. we have not, that they are absolutely super­ fiuous->vhy make the inmates sleep on a Mr. BRAND (Isis) 10.58 a.m.): I was concrete iivor ~ Yery pleased to hear from the Minister that he is not going to indulge in any large The Attorney-General: There is a good expense, which is unwarranted in war-time. place to keep them in George street-Lennon 's I am very pleased he was not carried away hotel. with the agitation we heard this morning. Mr. BARNES: I do not know anything The Boggo Road prison has been on its about that, but I do know from a friend present site for a number of years, and is in of mine who was in Boggo Road. Work that a very hygienic situation, its accommodation out. I am boasting that I have a friend at is quite up to the standard of other prisons in Australia, and at this time we should not Boggo Road who for no greater offence than s.p. betting was put in thedth the exception of these members only one >vay in which to control these of Parliament have the right to criticise things, and that is to use common sense-and public servants in this Committee, but only try to get down to the fundamentals of life, as to their inefficiency or incompetence or not to ruin nature. It is wrong to put these as to their administration, but not person­ people in Boggo Road gaol where they are ally. I think it would be unfair if hon. allowed to inaugurate fresh ideas of sex. These members of this Committee took advantage men in Boggo Road gaol, who have no outlet of this Chamber to deal with any public for their sexual feelings, indulge in sodomy, servant in a personal way. sadism, exhibitionism, and other perverted sexual acts, and, after they are allowed out lUr. BARNES: This letter points out the of gaol, they run loose in the world to molest inefficiency of the Comptroller-General at young children and continue to perpetrate Boggo Road, and it goes on to point out the acts of sexual perversion. The gaol system inefficiency of the Minister, and, in fact, that allows such things to take place creates makes serious accusations against both. this menace. Why, I do not know. If you give the people security there will The Secretary for Public Lands: Will be no need for gaols. It is their insecurity you make that statement public outside~ that causes them to break the laws of the Jir. BARNES: I happen to know that a land and to be put into gaols. Until that copy of this letter has been sent ~o the security is given the least we can do is to Uinister, because I sent a copy by regrstered treat our prisoners as human beings. We post to him. The pamphlets I have in my should extend them a helping hand by at hand have been sent all over Queensland and least giving them beds to lie on instead of deal with the inefficiency of the Boggo Road a concrete floor. They should be encouraged gaol and the inefficienc-y of the Minister in to go right again and not be encouraged to charge of the gaol. I will not go to the sink further down into the mire, as experi­ trouble of reading them out, but this man, ence has proved to us they do. The fact Knight, makes statements about inefficiency. of the matter is that we are not game to I believe copies of this letter have been sent legislate along true lines. Members of to other meml::-ers of Parlianu::nt. If Parliament do what will get them the most what this man Knight says is not correct votes the next tim'e they appeal to the he should be put in gaol; if it is correct people. Hon. members are not game to say somebody else should be put in gaol. These what they think. are serious accusations to make and I will I spent three hours in a gaol in Bunda · not associate myself with people in . this berg, as I have s3ic1. They put me in. the Committee if they are correct. Erther wooden cell-the padded cell-the one mto Knight is wrong or the Minister is wrong. which they put the lunatics. That is why I think there should be a clean-up and the the Minister catches on. Out of respect for whole of these things should be gone into. me and knowing that I had done nothing I want to know why the Jl.finister has not criminal the caretaker had sympathy for me taken action against this man for dama&'es, and put me in there. I wanted to go to t~e because his statements are wilfully damagmg Rockham]Jton gaol. They arrestctl me m to the Minister's character. If I am wrong my tlressing gown and pyjamas because I -and I hope I am-Knight should be would not pay the £40. I said that I would brought to his knees and put into Boggo not get dressed and I said that they could Road gaol, not as a warder, but as an not make me get dressed. inmate. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I pointed out The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH ANH on a previous occasion that on these votes HOlliE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, the hon. member is not in order in dealing Ithaca') (11.11 a.m.): I want to tell the with his own experiences. Most of the sub­ hon. member who has just resumed his seat jects that the hon. member has dealt with that, to judge by his speeches, he appears have been really of a personal nature affect­ to be the hon. member for himself in this ing himself. I have almost exhausted my Chamber, and he does not consider anybody patience in telling him how far he can go. else. He refArred to sex perversions at the He is required to deal with the administra· Boggo Road gaol, but I feel constrained to tion of the department under discussion. say that even the prisoners at Boggo Road are entitled to protection from the filthy Mr. BARNES: I have a letter here from slander of the hon. member. There are sex one of the warders who was recently perverts in the Brisbane Prison, and there ''fired.'' He makes serious accusations are sex perverts who are not in prison­ against Mr. Whitney and refers to him as quite a number of them. The remarks by Mr. Whitenberg or some other such German the hon. member, the hon. member for him­ name. He is possibly there under an self, are not in any way edifying on sex assumed name. matters either. Supply. [6 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1109

Mr. BARNES: I rise to a point of order. on appeal lodged under the Public Service The remarks by the Minister are insulting, Act, has his appeal dismissed. There may be and I demand that they be withdro wn. some reason why an ex-member of the public service believes he suffered a disability if The CHAIRMAN: Order: All that the on appeal the police magistrate and the Minister said was that the hon. member's Government representative on the appeal remarl's on sex were not edifying. board dismissed his appeal against the opinion Mr. BARNES: He referred it to me. of the representative of the union. I have heard public servants who have had a majority The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND decision against them on the appeal board HOME AFFAIRS: His remarks were say that the police magistrate and Govern­ absolutely unwarranted, and I am prepared r:nent representative put their heads together to protect the reputation even of those unfor­ to defeat them. I do not believe that is true, tunate people who are in prison from the but I have heard them say it. When an appel­ attacks by the hon. member for .Bundaberg. lant's representative .on an appeal board also ~Ir. Power interjected. supports the dismissal of the appeal, I fail to see that that man has any cause for Mr. Barnes: You are a liar! complaint. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. It appears that Knight has suffered from a member for Bundaberg to withdraw that nervous breakdown. The unfortunate man nnparliamentary term. gets pe~iodic outbreaks of this sort of thing, Mr. Barnes: I will withdraw it. and wntes slanderous letters. To give the Committee an idea of the way he ''goes off'' The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH ANn periodically, I have only to mention that at HOME AFFAIRS: I want to tell the hon. the time of the death of my little son member for Bundaberg that the prisoners he wrote me a letter saying that justice was in the Brisbane Prison do not sleep on the coming into its own-that whereas his children floor-or, at least, if they do, then, it is their were alive, mine were dead. No-one but au own choice. They a·re supplied with couches, insane person would write such a letter and but, of course, they have not what might be no-one but an insane person would take ~otice called ' ' sleep easy' ' mattresses. They are of such letters. A man of that kind is to be good beds. The prisoners are carefully pitied. I am very sorry that an ex-Digger looked after, they live under proper hygienic should be in the c•ondition he is in, that he conditions, and the food is sound, but not should get into trouble, be compelled to leave luxurious. They do not have the h;xuries the public service, and tha.t in consequence that are available to the ordinary man at nothing can be done for him. liberty. Each prisoner is confined to his own cell when he is not working in the gaol, Mr. JESSON (Kennedy) (11.17 a.m.): We and the sex perversion that the hon. member have listened to some extraordinary speeches for Bundaberg mentioned could not possibly from time to time in this Chamber. The first toke place under such circumstances. Each one I wish to deal with is that made by the prisoner has his own cell, his own bed and hon. member for Oxley, who, supported by bedding. They do not get luxuries, but they the hon. member for Wynnum, advocated the get what may be regarded as comfo1·table removal of the prison from its present site, beds that will enable them to get the rest although only last week both opposed any that will maintain them ln good health, and additions to the Brisbane General Hospital­ thus enable them to carry out their occupa­ bricks and mortar, as they said. They said tions. the Government should not spend any more The hon. member for Bundaberg mentioned money on additions to the Brisbane General the stupid letter that everybody has received Hospital, yet they want to remove this prison, from a man named Knight. I think that which has been on its present site for many every hon. member has received copies of that years, to the country. So far as I am con­ letter, but, in normal circumstances, intelli­ cerned, and the rest of the citizens of this gent people can recognise insanity at sight­ State also, it can remain where it is, as the that is, if they are sane themselves. This expense of its removal could be devoted to man Knight was a member of the prison ser­ better purposes. The prison is not an eye­ vice for many years. Far be it from me to do sore; it is a place of beauty. At all events, anything to injure him. Indeed, I would do iL looks very nice from the outside, whatever anything to help him. He was a soldier in it may look like on the inside. Every country the last war, and he gave good service to his has its prisons adjacent to the cities. Why country. Nobody wants to injure him, least should we remove this institution to Cameo­ of all another soldier. Knight committed an weal or Windorah, where its inmates cannot offence in the Brisbane Prison and he was be visited by their friends once a month as charged. After an inquiry he was dismissed at presenU Why isolate them altogether from the service. He lodged an appeal against from society W They are entitled to see their his conviction and dismissal and the appeal wives, mothers, relatives, and friends, boa'rd unanimously dismissed his appeal. That although the State confines them because of is, his own representative on the board as some indiscretion. well as the Government representative and The other extraordinary speech was made the police magistrate who was chairman, by the hon. member for Bundaberg. Up to decided that the appeal should be dismissed. the present I have treated that hon. member I cannot do anything for a man who is as a bit of a joke, but after I heard the dismissed from the public service and who, speech he delivered this morning, I can have IIIO Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

only repulsive feelings towards him. I think he said. That is a contemptible lie and a con­ the people of Queensland will think likewise. coction by hon. members of the Government, On his own admission, he spent three days because I hit them so hard by my truth. I in gaol-- am belting them and they resort to any depths to try to get something against me, which Mr. Barnes: I never did. I said three they cannot get politically. hours. The CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. JESSON: Well, three hours. I am going to ask the Minister to investigate the Mr. BARNES: I happen to be single, and position of the hon. member for Bundaberg I have not to answer to anybody for what with a view to seeing whether he can continue I say in this Chamber. It is high time we to occupy a seat in Parliament. I do not looked at facts frankly and discussed the sexual think that a man who has been in gaol can problem as it is. Take the report of the validly hold a seat in Parliament. His speech Commissioner of Police on the number of sexual this morning on various sex matters was cer­ diseases throughout Queensland as read out tainly enlightening to the Committee. It yesterday. That is because we will not look at indicated that he knows something about facts frankly; but because I have the courage those matters, that he has a very vivid con­ of my convictions and get up and speak about ception of them, or has been reading Have­ this delicate subject, which should not be lock Ellis. I do not believe for one minute delicate-the mid-Victorian idea still exists in that what he said is true. He cast a reflec­ hon. members' minds-I am condemned. tion on every person who has been an inmate Because I was in gaol for three hours, because of Boggo Road. Some of its inmates have I Tefused to pay a £40 fine for trading after been there through misfortune, such as evad­ hours, hon. members opposite refer to me as a ing maintenance payments, or other small gaolbird and say that I should not be in this matters that come within the purview of the Parliament. Leaders of the Labour move­ Criminal Code. He even suggested that the ment have been in gaol themselves since 1893, warders were mixed up in the matter, so that and more power to them! They were right. he cast a reflection on the staff at Boggo They defied gentlemen's agreements and defied Road also. ridiculous laws made by another Government. More power to them! Hon. members on the Mr. Barnes: What about all the promin­ Government side adopt tactics that are ent Labour men who were in gaol in 1893 ~ filthy-- Mr. JESSON: The hon. member sug­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ gested they were all sexual perverts and ber is not in order in suggesting hon. mem­ sodomists. I really think a man has got that bers of the Government Party engage in filthy in his mind when he brings that matter up. tactics. I ask him to withdraw that remark. I have heard nothing else but speeches on matters of sex and perversion from the hon. Mr. BARNES: I withdraw. member. We had it yesterday, when he was talking about the education of children on Mr. Williams: Why make it and with­ the vote for mental hygiene. I have no draw afted need to labour the question. I have knocked Mr. BARNES: The hon. member is too around the world and I am pretty hard in inquisitive. I absolutely refuse to tell him. the head, but in view of the utterances of the hon. member for Bundaberg I can only Mr. Williams: We will tell the House regard the hon. member with feelings of something more, too, don't you worry. revulsion. After his speech this morning it Mr. BARNES: I will be petty and tell the is repugnant to think that he belongs to the House all about you, too, some day. brotherhood of man. Mr. Williams: I am waiting for the Mr. BARNES (Bundaberg) (11.21 a.m.) : opportunity to deal with you. We hear stl·ange outbursts here when hot-pie sellers come along and tell the people about The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. sexual matters that they know nothing about. member for Bundaberg is not inclined to pro­ \Vhen somebody who has a bit of intelligence, ceed with his speech I shall ask him to resume and who speaks above their heads on some­ his seat. thing that their naked minds cannot conceive, Mr. BARNES: We go back to the cretins. then their illiterate minds draw a filthy infer­ The hon. t,he Minister twisted my statement ence and try to bespatter the author of the about prisoners having no beds and lying on speech with their own filthy minds and filthy boards. I never mentioned anything about outlook. I am game enough t'o say what I those in Boggo FJoad, but I mentioned those think i~ this Chamber, and I will say this: in the Bundaberg ga,ol, where they lie on the There Is no man who has ever been in this concrete floor. Assembly who has been game to say what he thinks as much as I have--no man has been The Secretary for Health and Home game to think on these lines in this Assembly. Affairs: There is a watchman only in Bundaberg. Mr. Power interjected. Mr. BARNES: They have to stop there Mr. BARNES: The hon. member who just for the night or days as the case may be. interjected tried to make out that I had a The hon. gentleman does not call it a prison, sexual case with a lad 12 years of age in 1940. but I do. Because some people have not a I did not know anything about that till yester­ mind to think with, those unfortunates in day when another hon. member told me what gaol are left to lie on the concrete floor. Supply. [6 NOVEMBER.) Supply. 1111

Would any medical man permit anybody to lie in gaol then his duty as a. decent citizen on the concrete floor~ But this honourable is at least to inform those in control of the Government have no compunction in putting prison where the offences have taken place, a man to lie on a concrete floor. It is high so that they can put a stop to it. time we looked facts in the face frankly. I realise that if hon. members do not look facts Mr. Barnes: I am doing it now. in the face frankly their constituents will, Mr. POWER: The hon. member, to my and there will be a number of ex-mem­ way of thinking, does not really under­ b

The CHAIRlUAN: Order! The hon. mem­ conducted by the Chnrch of England at Charle­ ber is not in order in moving the motion at ville. I called in there the other day and this stage. Will the hon. member for Baroona had a loo!' over the rlace, and I know that no\r proceed with his speech? the children in that hostel are carefully looked after. The mother of a child hap­ Mr. POWER: I was criticising the hon. pened to be a'way from home, '1\'0rking in member for Bundaberg for makin;.: a state­ on1cr to ma''e a living. ment concerning the filthy practice to which he referred as taking place in p.·isons in The Secretary for Agriculture and Stoc·k: Queensland. He said it was a common prac­ Are you referring to the Bush Brotherhood tice. I say that if ally lion. member of this Hostel? Committee knoyvs that this offence is taking plan it is his duty to bring the matter Mr. YEATES: Yes. under the notice of Lhose Y:ho are in control The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock: so that the pmctice can be stamped ont, if A good place, too. it does exist, anrl I do not b2lie' e that it does. I go furtk'r anr1 sn;- i'mt the hon. ~Ir. YEATES: Yes. The State will not member has insulted the wan1crs who a're in allow a grant to be made to the hostel, but control of the gaols by allc~'ing that they I should like to see this done. I shollld like have shut tlwir eyes to \Yhat is taking plare. the :\linister to go into the matter and allow It is quite easy for the hon. member to mal·e the grant to go to the hostel where the these charges, and now he has made them I mother leaves her child whilst she is earning, sui_'gest that he furnish eyidence to the Minis­ instead of compelling the mother to rent a ter so that the Com1•trollcr-Gencral of Prisons house and stay at home with her child. ma;· investigate them. 'l'he care of State children is a· very impor­ Vote (Prisons) a'greecl to. tant matter, as we all know. The average person does not take sufficient interest in ST.HE CIIILDREX, these matters. Some of the State children are orphans, and I sympathise with the child TJ1e SECRETARY .FOR HEALTH A~O who has to be brought up without the care HOlUE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, of a fond mother. It has a telling effect on Ithaca) (11.32 a.m.): I uwve- the child in a'fter life. A mother's lovG is ' 'That £198,839 be granter1 for 'State next to the love of God. Let us think of the Cnilclren.' '' prodigal son, because no matter what a child has done wrong he or she can always There is a decrease of £911 in the vote. Hon. come back to mother and be forgiven ~traight­ members opposite haYe referred to the decrease away. There is nothing that a mother cannot in. the vote, and I am hoping that the vote overlook. A mother's love is a wonderful vnll be much underspe11t. There is a ten­ love, and I feel great sympathy for children dency for fe1wr children to come under the who arc deprived of a mother's love and care of the State, and quite a number of influence, particularly from 14 to 18 years those who were previously under the care of of age. the State a're now secure in the care of rela­ tives. lUr. POWER (Baroona) (11.39 a.m.) : The clepartment is fortunate in having competent Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (11.33 officer3 in charge of it. They are very sym­ a.m.) : I notice that during the year 7 3±0 pathetic towards the children, and so is the children passed through the care of the State. Minister. The officers of the department are The report . of. the department is pleasing. kind and know how to deal with the c&'ses Of course, rt IS unfortunate that so many that come before them. Every application children have to go through the care of the for State aid is thoroughly investigated, and State, but under the circumstances the State a fair and accurate report is furnished to the ~s ?oing very well, indeed. ::\1r. Smith, who :\finbter. Very few applic:Jnts arc refuser1 IS m charge of the State children, is doing State aid for their children; as a· matter of excellent work as successor to Mr. Cla'rke. fact, it is extended as far as possible to the He is taking great care of the children who cases of unmarried mothers who are unable to come under his department. obtain employment or compel the fathers of their children to accept responsibility for I have had something to do with this depart­ them. ment on behalf of constituents and some­ times the depnrtment has refm,ed' the requests It is pleasing to know that when children made by relatives of State children. After are boarded out they are not sent away from careful investigations I have found that the departmental control and so left to the tcncler :Ie~artm?nt is alm?st invariably correct, that mercies of anyone who is supposed to care It IS domg what rs best in the interests of for them. A thorough investigation is made the children instead of allowing them to "'0 into the credentials of prospective foster­ back to relatives. "' mothers, and the inspectors make periodic visits to see that all State children are. getting Last year I pointed out that under the proper treatment. Of course, it is unfor­ Act it is necessary for a child to be either tunate that a number of children appear in under the care of the State or in the charvever, there is one matter about which As an indication of the care the Director I am concerned. I understand that some and his staff pay to State children, let us of the children attending the Pinkenba State have a look at the position of those children School are State children, and I should like who are old enough to go out to work. vVe to know from the llfinister if he has had have out at work a total of 901 State any report from the Director-General of children. 'l'hose are children who have Health and ::\fedical Services about the con­ reached working age, but are still under tl_w dition of State chilchen attending the school, care of the department. I must say m because I believe 'Omething should be done passinrr that State children are not always to remo.-e them from the Pink en ba State kept by the department until they reach 18 School in .-ie>v of what is taking place in yens of age. Chilllren committed by the the district. Children's Court arc frequently returned to their parents if they are behaving and >vor~­ The SECRETARY l<'OR HEALTH AND inO' well thus enabling them to help m IWJUE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, ke~ping 'the home. Of those. children who Ithaca) (11.42 a.m.): The hon. member for have not been restored to theu parents, >ve Ea:,t Toowoomba suggested that financial have 901 out at work. They have bank help should be ?;i.-en to hostels for the main­ balances totalling £28,782, an average of £31 tenDnce of Stnte children. Where a State 12s. 3d. each. I venture to say, if you took <>hilcl is not bonrded with its mother or its a cross-section of society-that is, if :;·ou took fo,.,cr-mother, it is boarded with the matron 901 boys and gil'ls between the age of 14 and of one of the institutions that take State 18 years, outside the care of the Statc--:you children, 0 nd there is nothing to prevent a would not find they had the aYerage savmgs State child at Charleville who is not living these children ha,;e. Careful planning for with its own mother from being boarded with the welfare of these children is an important the matron elf the Charlcville hostel. We part of the dutie~ of the Director. It means June helped that hostel ,-ery considerably. As that when thev reach early manhood they a matter of fact, the Government gave a have a few po~mds to give ·them a staTt off grant of £1,000 towruds its rebuilding pro­ in life. The a>·erage State child at 21 gramme some time a;-o. It has served a veTy vears if he has been under the care of the 1rseful purpose. The majori(v of the children ·aepm:tment sinre he >vas 14, starts off >vith at the Chmch of England hoctel in Charle­ a little bit more cash than the average Yille :•re the chilflren of settlers further out worker's chilrl in the community. 'l'hat is in the countrv far removed from Rchool all to the good. facilities, >Yho 'pay a nominal sum for their hoard. The m'ltron looks after the children The hon. member for Baroona raised the rlnring the s,•ltool period, and they r' turn to question of the care of these chilclTen w_hile their homes nt the week-end, if possible, or attendinO' school. During school penods during the hc:lifl_a;·s. I do not know how inspecto;s of the departnl'ent visit. t:he many State children are there, but I do not schools at regular periods to see the ch1ldren think there arc Yery many. vVhen the children for themselY~s. They examine them to see are placed under the control of the m:ttron that they are dressed properly and k_ept of the hostel, she becomes their foster-mother, clean. They also visit them at lunch-bme and it has alm1ys been the delibcrnte policy and examine their lunches, to see that they of. the department neYer to pay the Stntc get sufficient to eat. They keep. every pos­ clnldren allo\Yance to an;-body other than the sible check on the care they rece1ve. person re2ponsible for the carc• of the child. As to State children attending the Pin­ The allowance will not be paid to the mother kenba State School-representations have if she is not actually looking after the child. been made to the Director-General of Health It is paid to the person whose reRponsihilitv ancl Medical Services, and he has made it is to maintain and clothe the child. That certain recommendations regarding the con­ policy is ndher(;d to very strong!:·; otherwise dition of the children attending that school. graYe anomalies would arise and there would We have State children there, the same as be a serions misuJe of funds, and the care at any other school. As t~e docu:~_nent is a of the children >vould not be as good a' it very voluminous one, I will lay 1t on the is under present anangements. table for the information of hon. m:embeTS. The officers of the department have done That will save time in reacling it. The remarkably good work. \Vhen we consider Director-General acted promptly in t~e the number of State children and the cir­ matter, after it was brought before . h1s cumstances under which they are left to the notice and made certain recommendatwns control of the State, it is amazing that there that ~vill benefit not only State but all are so few compbints about the conditions children. under which they are brought np. Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (11.49 Very rarely have I had a complaint from a. m.) : The grant made by the Minister foT any hon. member of this ChambeT about the the rebuilding and renovation of the Charle­ refusal of the Director to give aid to a ville hostel was a commendable one, but I child; rarely have I had an appeal from want the hon. gentleman to clear up the 1114 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. position surrounding the payment of the The Secretary for Health and Home allowance to State children who may be Affairs: It was due to faulty construction. inmates of a hostel. Assuming a woman Mr. L UCIUNS: That was at the begin­ had three State children, for which she was ning. The contractor fell down on the job, receiving an allowance of 9s. 6d. a week each, and the old board carried out the work under would that money, after they entered a day-labour eonditionF. hostel, be paid to its matron~ The Secretary for Health and Home Tlle Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: That was before Greater Brisbane Affairs: She would have to make applica­ was inaugurated~ tion for the child. Mr. LUCKINS: Yes, it is a long time Mr. YEATES: It is done now? back. It is no good flogging a dead horse. The Secretary for Health and Home The Secretary for Health and Home Affairs: Yes, the allowance would be paid Affairs: We cannot put all the blame on to the matron of the hostel. It must be paid the council. to the female responsible for the care of the Mr. LUCKINS: I am glad to hear the child. :Minister sav that. I hope the Minister, in ~Ir. YEATES: That is so in the case of conjunction· with the :\Ietropolitan ~:Yorks a mother who, while out working, leaves the Board will see that the health of the children child in the hostel~ is prdtected and that drastic action will be taken to remedy any unhealthy conditions. The Secretary for Health and Home It is no use trying to blame one or another Affairs: Yes. or put the blame o~ the sho_ulders of ~omeone who is not responsible for It. I remmd hon. Mr. LUCKINS (Maree) (11.50 a.m.): The members of the changing conditions of the decreased vote asked for does not suggest city of Brisbane, which I think are for that the Minister is economising in the allow­ the better. Let ns forget the past and look ances paid to State children, but is due to to the future and improve conditions for the a lesser number of those children to be community generally. provided for~ I pay a tribute to the work of the_ Stat~ The Secretary for Health and Home Children Department. The money Parhamenc Affairs: Yes, a lesser number of children. votc:l has been well spent, ancl I am pleasefl to know there are fewer children to be pro­ ~Ir. LUCKINS: That is very pleasing vided for. It is very encouraging to know news. It was very interesting to hear the that the State children who have grown l:P ::\linister deal with the care of State children have played their part manfully and well m from all angles. our community, a'nd that th~y have great I wish to pay a tribute to the children who respect for the manager of this department, have been cared for by the State and who who will always be a foster-father to them. have received great attention from their There are other institutions that care for foster-mothers. I also wish to pay a tribute children-I refer particularly to the Salva­ to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty tion Army. I make no apology for speaking for the interest it has taken in children. of the great work of the Salvation Army, It is pleasing to know that it works in con­ especially in their girls' and boys' homes .. J;t junction with the State Children Department is pleasing to know that they cater for abonp­ and co-operates with it in every possible way. nal and half-castes as well as wl~ite chil.dren, I am pleased to know that better conditions and that these children are growmg up m an prevail now for all children, and the interests atmosphere worthy of our people. I an;t glad of the neglected children are looked after. provision has been made for these children, These young people a're the future citizens who were neglected in the past, and th~t and they should have the best possible condi­ they are able to s~t fa~ . the . scholarship tions in their youth. examination and obtam positiOns m the State Too much political capital has been made service. out of the position of the children at Pin­ Mr. BROWN (Logan) (11.55 a.m.): I It kcnba. is unfortunate that the matter congratulate the department on t~e work done should have been dealt with in that way. The on behalf of the children of this State. In department controlled by the Minister years gone by when ~ w?ma.n lost. her husr:a;H1 employs the chief medical officer for the State the people in the d1stnct m >Ylnch she In ef1 and he is the ma'n to whom the Brisbane City got up a subscription for her, and that was Council and the Government look to to report the end of it. Since Labour got control _of anything injurious to the children or any the affairs of State it has ~one away with citizens of this State. I am sorry the ques­ all that, and children left Without a father tion was introduced in this Chamber, because it was purely a matter that concerned the are protected. c.hief medical officer, who has a seat on the Mr. Yeates: Any Government. Metropolitan Works Board. The present state Mr. BROWN: It: was a Labour Govern­ of the health of the community reflects the efficiency of the health authorities of this ment who introduced it. State. Mr. Nimmo: Nothing of the sort. The sewerage difficulty has been experienced MJ.' BROWN • I know all about it from over a number of years. A to "z. I have been through the mill. I have Supply. [6 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1115

seen women having to go to the washtub to the foster-father of their children, who are provide for their children, and I know we therefore in capable hands. never got this huma'nitarian legislation until Labour gained control. I say that without Perhaps I come more in contact with the fear of contradiction. officers of this department than many other hon. members, by virtue of the fact that I would inform the hon. member for Maree there are two homes in my electorate-the that the sewer at Pinkenba was built by St. Vincent's Home, with about 400 children, day labour under a Tory board. The Metro· and the Tufnell Home. It would interest politan \Yater Supply and Sewerage Board hon. members to visit those two institutions. existed for 20 yea'rs before being taken over When it has been my good fortune to be by the Greater Brisbane Council. invited to the annual prize distributions at The CHAIR~IAN: Order! these homes, I have been impressed by the excellent manner in which the children have iUr. Yeates: Keep this out of party been attired and by the abundant evidence politics. of the great care and attention that is given The Order! to them. A visit would open the eyes of any CHAIRJUAN: hon. member. I\Ir. Yeates: This party-- During the past year, £136,629 was paid The CHAIRIIIAN: Order! If the hon. to 2,584 families fo11 the care of 5,224 children. member for East Toowoomba does not obey In addition to that, £2,650 was expended on my call to order I shall have to deal with him. school requisites for children attending State I suggest that he read the Standing Orders, schools. which provide that whenever the Speaker or Chairman of Committees rises to speak they Whilst speaking about the education of shall be heard without interruption. our children, I omitted to mention the num­ ber of State children who have passed the The hon. member for Logan will not be in junior and senior university examinations. order in discussing the construction of the Upon going into the matter, I have ascer­ sewer at Pinkenba generally, but only so far tained that many State children of ability as it affects the health of the State children have been enabled, through both the Depart­ attending the Pinkenba school. ment of State Children and the Department Mr. BROWN: I was working up to that. of' Public Instruction, to occupy important professional positions throughout the State. The hon. member for Maree got away with it. He said it was constructed by day labour. I desire to refer, also, to the great work I quite agree with that, but the Metropolitan done by foster-mothers who have registered ·water Supply and Sewerage Board held the homes in which they care for as many as reins for only two years before this service six children. They are doing excellent work was taken over by the Greater Brisbane Coun­ by attending to the welfare and upbringing cil, and therefore the main sewer was laid of those children just as zealously as if they when that board wa's in control. The sewer were of their own flesh and blood. has given way, and I am not blaming any­ The State Children Department has had body for it, but the matter must be rectified. placed upon it the added responsibility of I desire to be fair. The hon. member for looking after the interests of the 41 evacuee Maree really criticised the sewer because it children that we have in this State, because was constructed by day labour. It was done the Director is so admirably fitted to guard by day labour because the contra'ctors had their interests. fallen down on the job. They gave it up. There was a Tory Metropolitan Water Supply About three years ago it was intended to and Sewerage Board in power to just two demolish the Diamantina Receiving Depot years before the Greater Brisbane City Coun­ and Infants' Home at Wooloowin. As yet, cil took over. Labour never had a majority nothing has been done. This is a very old on the Metropolitan Water Supply and Sewer­ building occupying space that could be age Board, and I take it that that is the added to the Wooloowin State School grounds reason why the job has not turned out as it with advantage. During the time I have been should have done. We now must have the an hon. member of this Assembly, four addi­ trouble rectified to protect the health of the tions have been made to the Wooloowin State children in the district. School, and this has meant the occupation of so much of the available land that now very Mr. HAYES (Nundah) (11.59 a.m.) : I little playing space is available for the take this opportunity of congratulating Mr. children. I think it would be worth the Smith, the Director of the State Children Minister's while to proceed with the demoli­ Department, on his close attention to appli­ tion of the receiving depot; 17 acres cations for assistance to State children. It of land were selected on a hillside at Cherm­ must be admitted that it is necessary for side for the building of a new receivin?; widows or deserted wives to apply for aid depot. The present receiving depot is built in respect of their children in order to keep on a fiat. This work could be gone on with body and soul together. It is a grand thing during the war, because I believe it is essen­ to know that these people when in trouble tial. It must not be thought that I am can go along to the Director or his officers wanting the hills in my electorate adorned and put their case in conversational style a'nd with big, stately buildings, but I believe that close attention will be given it. It the site for this depot was made available is comforting to have the feeling that he is several years ago and the preparatory work 1116 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

of clearing was done. I trust that the It is true that the State Children Depart­ Min·:ster will give serious consideration to ment existed before the days of Labour this matter and that it will not be long before Governments, but I think the hon. member the building takes shape. for Oxley ·will admit that Labour Govern­ ments liberalised the system and made the I should like to say a few words concern­ allowance a right and not a charity. In the ing the health of our children-and par­ old days the practice was to pay 4s. a week ticularly those attending the State School for the first child, 2s. 6d. a week for the at Pinkenba. I haYe heard a good deal next two children, and ls. 6d. a week for all about the break in the sewer at Pinkenba, other children over the first three, and to and it is a wonder to me that the work of make those payments only in certain cases. repair has been so long delayed; it is a further wonder to me that the people at l'llr. Nimmo: A start had to be made. Pinkenba are not broken-hearted and unable to live. The stench :irom that sewer is, The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND HOME AFJ<'AIRS: Yes, a start had to be very often, insufferable. Shortly after the made, but in those days it was paid to break in the sewer and jnst prior to the last children up to 12 years of age, because they council elections I heard many political were expected to go to work at that age. stories told. The council in power at the It was in 1915 that the great improvement time w::ts getting the blame for something was made in the conditions of State children, that had happened 20 years before. Much when the allowance was established as a has been said in the Press about the Pinkenba right and not as a c·harity. sewer, and it is to be hoped that an effort will be speedily made to have the existing The report of the Director-General of conditions remedied. I suggest that full Health and Medical Services concerning the notice be taken of the recent report by Dr. Pinkenba school has been sent to the Depart­ St. Vincent Welch, and that the children ment of Public Instruction, and the hon. attending the Pinkenba school be placed in member for Nundah can rest assured that another school for the time being, where they the department will act promptly upon it. will not have to endure the stench during In connection with the removal of the school hours. It is bad enough to know Diamantina receiving depot at Wooloowin, I th:1t they have to put up with it during the desire to say that a site has been selected at night. Let us hope that the council will the Lutwyche tram terminus, within easy get on with the job and have it completed walking distance of the tram, and there is as quickly as possible. no doubt that when the depot is shifted it will make more room at the Wooloowin State lUr. NIIIBfO (Ox!ey) (12.10 p.m.): I rose School, which will be welcome. However, mainly to reply to the statement by the hon. like many other works that we have planned, member for Logan that the State Children this will have to be abandoned during the Department had been established by a Labour war period. Government_ The State Children Department With regard to evacuee children, I desire was in existence and State children were to say that recently an officer of the being well cared for long before the advent Dominions Office visited me with the object of a Labour Government, and I know that of seeing how the children were getting on. the hon. member for Logan would not seek He expressed complete satisfaction, and kudos for legislation that had been passed indeed pleasure, at the way in which they by anti-Labour Governments. were being cared for in Queensland. The other day I suggested that owing I am sure the children themselves, and to the heavy increase in the cost of living indeed every hon. member, will be grieved to in this State, the allowance to State children know that the lady who escorted the children should be increased, and I now ask the Min· from England to Australia recently died in ister to bear in mind the need for granting a German prison camp. She cared for the an increased allowance at least to the widow children on the voyage from England, and with only one child. At the moment she safely landed them in Australia, but when has to struggle along on the 9s. 6d. provided she was returning her ship was torpedoed, by the department, and she is not entitled and she was taken prisoner. Her sufferings to child endowment. I think the Minister from the sinking of the ship, combined with will readily admit that in view of the heavy her sufferings in a prison camp in Germany, increase in the cost of living, the small sum resulted in her death in Germany recently. of 9s. 6d. is not enough. Real sorrow at her death was evinced by those with whom she came in contact. The The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND evacuees developed a real affection for her. HOltiE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Some of the evacuee children are approach­ Ithaca) (12.12 p.m.): The department has ing working age. The officers of the depart­ not lost sight of the cases the hon. member ment are not overlooking our duty to see for Oxley has just mentioned. Indeed, we that they are properly cared for and put to are anxious to do everything we can to suitable work. protect State 0hildren and to give them an equal opportunity with the children of Mr. NIMMO (Oxley) (12.15 p.m.): I workers who are not dependent upon the should like to point out for the information State. The practice is to help the widow of the Committee that the report of the State up to the standard at least equivalent to the Children Department in 1913, as contained basic wage. in the Journals of this House, discloses that Supply. [6 NovEMBER.] Supply. lll7 foster-mothers at that time were remunerated under £5; because they are in a little out­ as follows:- of-the-way place in the backblocks. Under 2 From 2 to years of age. 13 years. There are several hotels in Queensland, Per week. Per week. the purchases of which range from £16,000 to s. d. s. d. £18,000 for the year, but the maximum of Southern District 8 0 6 0 £300 applies when purchases amount to Central District 0 0 £12,000. I should like to know why there is 8 7 any limit. Why not pay according to the Northern District 8 0 7 0 amount of purchases~ There are far too many The report added- hotels in Queensland. '' This amount is by no means sufficient M:r. Hilton: You read that in the for what the foster-mothers do for the ''Courier-Mail'' this morning. children, and I have strongly recommended that payment be increased.'' lUr. YEATES: I made these notes days ago. I read the report of the Licensing Com­ That proves that Parliament at that time mission, and I hope the hon. member for realised the importance of caring for these Carnarvon has done likewise; he has had children, and that the amount of the allowance ample time to do so when travelling on that was not small, as the Minister stated. slow mail train.

The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND We have one hotel for every 800 people. HOJIE AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, No person under 21 has any right to be served Ithaca) (12.17 p.m.): The hon. member with strong drink. for Oxley did not complete the story; I An Opposition llfember: Do you think will complete it for him. This allowance that is carried ouH fonurrl;c· was merely paid to foster-mothers in respect of children without a father or lUr. YEATES: It ought to be. When mother, or \Yho had not a mother to look one. deducts the number of people under 21 after them, not to a natural mother ·with the one finds that we have an hotel for every 200 approval of the depart)T"'ent. It was not or 300 people. That is far too many. I am until 1915, when Labour came into power, not speaking as a puritan or a wowser; I that this allowance was made to women who speak as a man of the people who has been had their own children to rear. I did not right away out to Muttaburra and Eromanga, raise the argument until the hon. gentleman and from Atherton to Goondiwindi investigat­ began to tell the story; I have merely com­ ing the conditions regarding hotels. pleted it. The accommodation, generally, is good. I Vote (State Children) agreed to. should like to know if the hotels are in the habit of supplying meals at all hours. STEAMER ' 1 OTTER.'' The Secretary for Health and Home The SECRETARY 'FOR HEALTH AND Affairs: Even the cook sleeps sometimes. HOlliE Al<'l<'AIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, Ithaea) (12.18 p.m.): I move- Mr. YEATES: I grant there may be some valid excuse in labour conditions for not '' That £5,377 be granted for 'Steamer supplying a meal, but I want to know whether Otter.' '' there is any gentlemen's agreement about the This vote shows an increase of £749. This non-supply of meals or whether it is a con­ is made up of salary increases, the payment dition of the licence. I have my own ideas of a retiring allowance of £219 to a :fireman, on the matter. There are certain hotels in provision for the purchase of a new lifeboat, Queensland that let rooms and take as much and increases in cost of stores. money over the bar as people like to spend, but they will not supply meals at any hour. Vote agreed to. I emphasise that particularly between the hours of 8 a.m. and 9 a.m., 12.30 p.m. and LJCEKSIKG COMMISSION. 2.30 p.m., and 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. they serve The SECRETARY 'FOR HEALTH AND no meals at all. The Licensing Commission HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E. M. Hanlon, must know them perfectly well. I am not Ithaca) (12.19 p.m.): I move- complaining because I have been inconveni­ enced, but because others have. I am wonder­ " That £4,152 be granted for 'Licensing ing why, if this is against the law, it is Commission. ' ' ' allowed to continue. The staff of the Commission remains at the The law provides that no liquor shall be same strength. The inerease in the vote is served to persons under the age of 21 due to the increase in the basic wage and years, and I also assume that it provides that the pay-roll tax. No other increase is con­ no hotelkeeper shall supply liquor to anyone templated. already under the influence of strong drink. Are these provisions enforced W I hope they Jir. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (12.24 are. If not, why noH p.m.): The fee for a licensed victualler's licence is calculated on a basis of 2~ per cent. Fire escapes should be provided at every of the liquor purchases for the year with a hotel in every part of Queensland. They maximum of £300. Some hotels are paying should be kept in proper order, and, if of the 1941-2 Q 1118 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. folding type of ladder, should be kept greased Mr. BARNES (Bundaberg) (12.32 p.m.) : and oiled. All escapes should be tested every Once again I regret that I have not 10 hours six months to ensure that they are in work­ in which to discuss the Liquor Act. There ing order. is nothing right with either the Act or its administration. The Act provides that the I want to know also why the Act has made decision of the Licensing Commission shall no provision for appeals against the decisions be final. \Vhere are the principles of Magna Qf the Licensing Commission W The Commis­ Charta in that provision~ In the clays before sion consists of three men, who, I say defin­ the signing of Magna Charta a person could itely, are highly respected citizens ·Of Queens­ flog his servant if he thought he was guilty Inn d, but the power is vested in these three of an offence. Magna Charta rectified that men to do whatever they please. ancl clicl not allow a servant to be flogged The Secretary for Health and Home until he was proved to be guilty. In this Affairs: They cannot do as they please. instance we have no right of appeal, and 'I'hoy can act at their discretion only within there lies half the trouble with the Licensing the law. Commission in Queensland. 'rhere lies half the trouble with the Licensing Commission Mr. YEATES: There is no tribunal to in Queensla,ncl! ! which an appeal may be made if these three Honourable Members: Ooh! men disagree. There should be provision that any person who feels that he has not been The CHAIRMAN: Order! I will not properly treated can appeal. allow the hon. member for Bunclaberg or any hon. member of this Assembly to make a The Secretary for Health and Home burlesque of Parliament. I want that Affairs: What are you dealing with? clearly understood. There is 110 necessity or occa8ion for any demonstration by the }lr. YEATES: It may be in connection lwn. member for Bunclaberg. with the demolition of a building or any­ thing. There are a number of things that )Ir. BARNES: The Liquor Act provides ;;an be dealt with. that the maximum licence fee shall be £300. Why1 Why is there no provision for a right I observe that some hotels have been of appeal~ Why should the controllers of thoroughly renovated and are in splendid the Liquor Act have power over the Full order, but that is not so with others. I have Court of Queensland, the High Court of noticed that in the larger cities. I am won­ Australia, or the Privy Council~ Why~ dering why all hotels are not treated alike The CHAIRMAN: Order! The necessity and whether there is any particular reason, for legislation, or matters involving legisla­ such as higher 0ost of building material, that tion, cannot be discussed in a Com'mittee of has enabled them to have exemption. Supply. Instructions have been issued to have a lUr. Brand: He has his rights. urinal erected virtually in the centre of one leading hotel, although one is already pro­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! If the hon. vided in a suitable position. It is a modern member for Isis has anything to say regard­ structure ancl as there are many hotels in ing my ruling, I suggest that he get up and Brisbane ancl other centres in which the say it. urinals are in the back yards, this hotel should Mr. Brand: I am noc saying it to you, not be asked to expend £200 .or £300 unneces­ Mr. Gair; I am saying it to an hon. member sarily. opposite. A considerable amount of money is col­ Mr. BARNES: Under the Liquor Act, the lected by way of licence fees, and this method of arriving at the licence fee is to revenue appears to go to consolidated take 2~ per cent. of the value of the alcohol revenue, with the exception of a very small purchased. In the last issue of the percentage that is put in a fund for com­ ''Sun clay Mail'' I saw that five publicans pt>nsation purposes. All fees should be put paid £5,000 income tax. Perhaps, if there in a trust fund until that fund reaches at hacl been no maximum licence fees they least £10,000, ancl that money should be would have paid £4,000 income tax ancl the used to compensate those persons whose other £1,000 to the Licensing Commission. licences may be cancelled from time to tim'e. By this means the Licensing Commission might be able to attain one of its objects, The Secretary for Health and Home to give better service in the hotels of Affairs: You have made a discovery. That Queensland. There is only one possible way, ls what has been done ever since the Act was ancl that is by buying out the smaller hotels passed. ancl enabling the larger ones to give the service required. If there was no maximum Mr. YEATES: But the department does to the licence fee, the Commission would have not seem to have enough money for this pur­ pose. Ever so many more licences should extra money with which to clelicense the be cancelled, and proper compensation paid, small hotels in Queensland ancl enable a instead of the measly few pounds that are better service to be rendered to the people. given. I believe that the Licensing Commis­ Let us take a case in point. A cask of sion realises that there are too many hotels beer in a small hotel might last for two or in the country, but I want it to reduce the three days, or perhaps a week, but in a large number by ever so many and compensate the hotel it would seldom last into the second licensees adequately. day. A cask of boor should be consumed in Supply. [6 NovEMBER.] Supply. lll!f not more than a day. It is possible, too, (b) To any person apparently under that a bottle of lager or a bottle of stout the age of 21 years may be opened in a small hotel to serve shall be liable to a penalty." a customer or two, and then put into the ice-chest, where it perhaps remains for a If the Act were enforced we should not have long time before eventually being emptied. half the trouble we are getting to-day. In a bigger hotel that bottle of lager or After all, it is the minority who are that bottle of stout would not last so long, causing the majority inconvenience in the and, therefore, would not be fiat when served. getting of drink. Why should the minority The service in the hotels to-day is putrid, be allowed to interfere with the majority~ for the plain and simple reason that scien­ They interfere because the police are not tists tell us that liquor is more susceptible doing their duty in this respect by arrest­ to bacteria than milk. In other words, it is ing the drunkards and charging the hotel­ necessary that hygienic conditions be keepers. The Act says that the penalty for observed in hotels, and to be hygienic a these offences shall be not less than £5. If person has to know what to do as well as be it was made not less than £20 for the :first able to affon1 to do it. The small hotels offence and not less than £50 for the second cannot afford to do this, because it is a offence, and then one month in gaol, would cost!:· process to keep beer hygienic. the people be drunk~ No. Whether hon. members of this Committee know it or not, that is a fact. In the next place, liquor must not be sup­ plied to a person under 21 years of age. If The small hotels have to survive, and, as that was altered to 17 years of age, do you did happen in my own territory, people have think, Mr. Gair, that the liquor would be licences who have no character whatever, supplied if the penalty was £20 for a :first and nm their hotels as gambling joints and offence, £50 for the second offence, and then more or less as brothels. That statement one month in gaol without the option~ If a applies pretty goenerally throughout Queens­ hotelkeeper supplies liquor to an intoxicated land. Now, if these small hotels were struc~~: man or one llll(ler age, he is subjed to out-as the Commission has power to do­ a p<'nalty; but, if it was made £100 for the there 1vonld be no nee(1 to nm hotels on :first offenc0, £200 for the second, and then such lines, and the public ~would be getting one month-or perhaps three months-in a better service. There are 20 hotels in the gaol, wonld he serve such persons~ No. A Bundaherg area, and for a good service to wife does not worry about her husband's the public it is necessary to have only one in having a few drinks, but she does object to each of the four suburbs, and, say, six in his g-etting drunk, coming home late for the main part of the town, making 10 in all. meals, and spending his money. I know these things. I was born in a public-house, and People who are thrown out of their hotels I was for numv years a commercial traveller should be fully compensated, not partly com­ and brewerv t~·aveller. I know what I am­ pensated. Indeed, we should encourage talking aho~It and I know that the publican, people to submit their hotels for delicensing too, would relish thesr provisions. Tlw Aet voluntarily by giving them sufficient com­ says that a person may be declared an pensation. 'rhe compensation being paid habitual drunkard; but, if it was altered to to-day is far too little, and not one hotel read that after three convictions "He shall has been delicensed in Bundaberg except be declared an habitual drunkard--" voluntarily. The Commission has not the money to delicense hotels. The CHAIR~IAN: Order! I do not like to pull up the hon. member so frequently, I think it is section 58 of the Act that especially as he is a new hon. men;ber, but provides that no hotelkeeper shall serve a the matters that he is dealing 1nth have person who is drunk or intoxicated. Suppose nothing whate1·er to do with the Licensing J ones comes in to a hotel. Commission. The Licensing Commission li'Ir. Jones: Don't bring my name into it. deals with the issue of licences, the question whether a person is quali:fied to hold a liquor Mr. lllassey: Say "Smith." licence, buildings, renovation of hotels, accom­ Mr. If Smith comes in modation, fees, and so forth. The question BARNES: whether a person should be declared an ''blotto,'' and if I do not serve him with habitual drunkard does not come under the drink, he will go to another hotelkeeper and be served. What is more, he will take six administration of the Licensing Commission. of my customers to the other hotel, where Mr. BARNES: I regret it if I am out of the hotelkeeper will serve this person. If the order, Mr. Gair, but I listened to a previous Liquor Act as it stands to-day were carried speaker who spoke along those lines. He out, we should not have that trouble. Have discussed the Act in an open way and, you ever read of a hotelkeeper 's being sum­ naturally, I thought I was entitled to discuss moned for selling liquor to an intoxicated it in an open way. Do not think for one person~ If you have, it is of rare occur­ moment, Mr. Gair, that I am trying to take rence. This is how the Act reads now- advantage of any situation. '' Any licensed victualler or wineseller Section 29 (2) of the Act provides- who supplies or permits to be supplied any liquor- '' The Commissioner may, on being sa tis­ :fied that the proposed transferee is a :fit ( a) To any person in a state of intoxi­ and proper person to hold a license or a cation or to any habitual drunkard; certi:ficate of registration, transfer such ll20 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

license or certificate of registration to such of the Act was not being carried out. It had person by an endorsement upon the license me prosecuted for trading after hours or certificate of registration in the pre­ but allowed my neighbours to do so. I scribed form.'' also made those complaints to the Governor in Couneil. I asked the Governor in Council The only question before the Commission is: to table my complaints. Furthermore, I Is the applicant a fit and proper person to threatened the Governor in Council-- hold a licence? 'fhat is the only part of this Act that provides for the transfer of a licence, The Secretary for Health and Home and a making application for a b·ans· Affairs: Oh, dear! fer must comply with it. If the police oppose the application they must prove lllr. BARNES: That I would issue a that the applicant is not a fit and proper mandamus in the Supreme Court against him in which ca'se the Commission is and publicly force him to close hotels at 8 to refuse the application. In my o'clock. He took the other altema'tive and own case an application was made to transfer put it through caucus. This Act provides the licence held by me to my sister. 'fhe also that no chink shall be sold on Sunday Commission adjourned the application three except to a person who has travelled 20 miles, times, but did not on any one of those three and then only between the hours of 12.30 occasions do so lawfully. That is adminis­ and 2.30, provided they obtain that drink tration! The Commission can only adjourn \vith a meal. Therefore, there is a traveller's an application made under section 29 (2) clause in part in the Act. It should provide to find out whether the applicant is a: fit and :for a full traveller's clause enabling travellers proper person to hold a licence. That was not to obtain drink not only at that time but at the reason for the adjournment in this case. any time. If we are to have the correct administra· The CHAIRMAN: Order! I have already tion of hotels we must make the thing more informed the hon. member that the necessity open so that the persons concerned can have for legislation and matters involving legisla· the right of appeal against the decision of the tion cannot be discussed in Committee of Commission should they desire to do so. For Supply. argument's sake, we heard the hon. member Mr. BARNES: Section 120 of the Act for East Toowoomba say you cannot get a reads as follows:- meal in some hotels. I would point out to the ''No person shall sell or supply liquor Committee that this Act does not provide for or permit liquor to be drunk or consumed a person's obtaining a meal at a hotel in a registered club- although it does provide for a horse's getting a feed in the stables of the hotel. Think ( a) Except between the hours of 8 over that seriously! This Act provides that in the morning 'and 8 at night, on the a licensed victualler must provide accommo· six business days of the week; or dation, yet does not provide for giving a (b) At any time of Sunday, Good human being a feed, although it does provide Friday, Anzac Day, or Christmas Day, that a horse shall get a feed at the stable. " The Secretary for Health and Home Golf clubs and bowling clubs want to serve Affairs : That is not so. A licensed drinks on Sunday. The Act does not provide victualler can be called upon to supnly a for it, but the fact remains they do so. I person with accommodation or food. " have drunk in numerous clubs on Sunday, and I shall continue to do so. Mr. BARNES: There is nothing in this Act to force a publican to supply food to Mr. Jesson: You are a real "shelf." anyone, but it does force him to provide a' Mr. BARNES: I am not a " shelf." I am feed for a horse. willing to make proper laws. Either the lllr. Jesson: That was put in for you to Licensing Commission should be forced to see look after donkeys. that the Act is carried out and clubs pre· vented from selling liquor on Sunday or the The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. Act should be amended. I am in favour of member for Kennedy to refrain from making amending the Act. If a worker cannot buy personal interjections. I think we have had a drink on Sunday because the law will not enough of them this morning. allow him to do so, why should a gentleman Mr. BARNES: Section 69 of the Act get one~ says- Under the Liquor Act the Licensing Com­ '' Hours of selling on licensed victuallers' mission has authority to compel owners of or winesellers' premises.-No licensed vic­ hotels to keep their premises up to a certain tualler or wineseller shall keep his house standard; but, in many cases, the Commission ·open for sale of liquor, or sell or supply does not exercise a wise discretion. For liquor or permit liquor to be drunk or con­ example: the owner of a hotel building sumed on his licensed premises, except worth not more than £1,000 may be compelled (between the hours of 8 in the morning to construct a septic system adjacent thereto and 8 at night) on the six business davs costing £500, whereas if common sense was of the week. ' ' • used the Commission could allow a cheaper system to be constructed or a temporary I made several complaints to the Licensing system until the old wooden building was Commission myself, and I asked the Commis­ pulled down and a brick one erected in its sion to table those complaints that this section place. Supply. [6 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1121

The Act directs the publican to do many under the circumstances; That is an explana­ things, but what protecti.on do publicans get tion of what is meant by providing accom­ from it~ The Act prov1des that merchants modation for travellers. shall furnish returns of their private sales, Up to the time of the passing of the Act but I defy the Commission to show me one of 1935, the maximum licence fee was £200. return. That Act increased the fee 50 per cent. The SECRETARY FOR IIEALTH AND Hon. members may contend that it should be HOME AFFAIRS (Hon. E•. M. Hanlon, further increased, but the fact is that the Ithaca) (12.57 p.m.): I think hon. m~mbers present Act, vvhich I intToduced, raised the were a bit off the track on the question of maximum fee from £200 to £300. the supply of meals at hotels. It is com­ Hon. members have refeTreQ to the recon­ pnlsOl-y for licensees to provide accommoda­ struction of hotels. During the five years the tion on licensed premises, and that includes Licensing Commission has been operating, the meals. Every licensed victualler has to supply owners of hotel pTOperties have spent meals at n:asonable hours, but he is not £1,500,000 on renovating and reconditioning compelled to get out at any hour of the their Dremises. vVhen Olle considers that night to do so. He has to provide them at hotelke'eping is only part of the industry of the meal hours, and that is all one the State, the expenditure of £1,500,000 in can expect. The staff attached to the few years the Commission has been any hotel have to have their hours off duty operating can be consi

the licensees to keep the premises in the way for the purpose of exploiting the weakness that we would have them kept. Obviously, with of human beings. As a Committee, we have 1,300 hotels in Queensland, we could not no need to express any great sympathy for expect many of them to be kept on the same the hon. member in his clashes with the lines as a modern city hotel. police and the authorities, but at the same time, we are not going to regard all the :fi'Ir. Massey: The nearest State to us in people engaged in catering for the wants of the matter of hotPls to l'JOpulation is one travellers as being in the same class as the hotel to 1,000 people. grog-shanty-keeper referred to. TI1e SECRETARY J<'OR HEALTH AND .HOME AFJ<'AIRS: other States have been Mr. BARNES (Bundaberg) (2.18 p.m.) : reducing the number of their licences for a The Minister's remarks are amusing to me. long timC'; Queensland starter! in 1935 only. He said that the reason for not transferring We are operating on the principle that when that licence to my sister was that I should the owner reconditions a hotel, he continue to be more or less in control, and moderni,es it. \¥here there is a water supply the Commission did not want that because I ayaila ble, running \Ya ter has to be nrovided was up for my third offence. Exactly three in the bedrooms, hot and cold wate~ has to weeks later, it transferred that licence. If be provided, a septic system must be installed, the Act provides that the licence shall not and so on. be transferred under those circumstances, why did the Licensing Commission transfer A remm·kable job has been done in com­ it~ Two out of the three members of that pelling hotl'lkeepers to put in adequate fiTe Commission decided in favour of the transfer, escapes. Previously, the supervision of this and one was against it. Why did the Com· necessity 11·as left to the licensing inspector, mission arrive at a faYourable decision in but, since the establishment of the Commis­ three weeks~ I hid for six months, not tluee sion, the owner of :my hotel premisc3 of t1vo weeks. The ::Yfinister 's statement is ridicu· storeys or over is compelled to proyirle ade· Ions. The only provision contained in the quate fire escapes. A decent kitchen, fly Act is the one I read out this morning, yet screens to protect food, and so on, arP eom· the Licensing Commission goes further and pulsory in the interests of the health. adds another provision, according to the Min­ comfort, and conYcnienee of patrons. ister's own words. That Licensing Commis· The hon. member for Bundaberg com­ sion has no right to make laws, yet, accord­ plained over some delay by the Licensing ing to the Minister himself, it made a fresh Commission in transferring a licenee from law in that case, and ignored the Act. him to his sister. The reason for the delay The Secretary for Health and Home was that the Commission did not feel justi­ Affairs: It made no law. fied in transferring the licence to the hon. member's sister while the hon. member was JUr. BARNES: What ridiculous camou­ ' 'in smoke'' dodging a summons from the flage! In the report of the Commissioner police. He was up for his third offence of Police we find that some thousands of under the licensing law, and the police could people were convicted for being drunk. not find him to serve the summons. How­ ever, his patience in remaining ''in smoke'' JUr. Maher: Nine thousand. outlived the patience of the Licensing Com­ Mr. BARNES: Yes, 9,000. Let the mission, and eventually the transfer was Minister show me where one publican was granted, and the hon. member was able to charged with serving liquor to drunks. come above water again. That is the aetual position, and it is not desirable for the Com­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mission to allow lawbreakers to make a member is not in order in dealing with that merely dummy transfer of licence. matter, as it is one relating to the Police Department and not the Licensing Commis· Mr. Barnes : The law provides for it. si on. The SECRETARY FOR HEALTH AND Mr. BARNES: In other States there is HOME AFFAIRS: It is a provision of the Liquor Act that the third offence under any one hotel to 1,000 people, one to 1,300, and section renders the licence liable to forfei­ one to 1,600, but in Queensland it is one ture. That forfeiture could be avoided if to 800 people. The Commission was set up the licensee, whilst waiting service of a sum­ to bring about a better service to the people, mons, or while waiting for his case to be and, despite the fact that the :!'\Iinister boasts dealt with, could arrange for a transfer to that £1,500,000 has been spent on hotels in some relative or agent, who would carry on five years, what good has it donef Notwith· for him. That would be defeating the spirit standing all the money that has been spent of the Act, and that is what happened in I venture to say that 80 per cent. of the the hon. member's ease. people voluntarily submitted their hotels to be delicensed. It was not compulsorily I think that hon. members can infer from done, although the Commission has that the debate that there are two classes of power. The only reason why the Commis· people engaged in the liquor trade-hotel­ sion did not exercise that power was, as keepers and grog-shanty-keepers. The hon. the Commissioner told me, ''We have not member for Bundaberg has painted a fair got the money.'' That same gentleman told picture of the grog-shanty-keeper, who does me and others in Queensland that Barnes not keep a hotel for the service of the public, was the one '' 1ve look up to.'' He was the but uses his licence to sell intoxicating liquor one who forced good accommodation and good Supply. [6 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1123

beer in Queensland. That same man ridi­ and public buildings generally, but I heard culed me in the interim, but then came back the Secretary for Health and Home Affairs with the same story. That shows how fickle say to-day that it could not be expected that the Commission is. The statement is made money would be spent either upon the construc­ and then it is contradicted. First of all it tion of new hotels or the improvement of old was said that I was the person to be looked ones, because the call to-day was for the up to because I forced good accommodation diveTsion of money from non-essential to essen­ and good beer, and I forced the rest of tial war expenditure. That is a pretty insis­ Queensland to follow. That same person tent call, a clarion call that every man who ridiculed me in the interim. Why~ Is it means well by his country in these troublous because I am a member of Parliament~ times should heed. Therefore, it is rather surprising that a pr~nciple so good as that The Minister this morning said that where enunciated by the Secretary for He8lth and water was available the Commission had Home Affairs to-clay should be entirely over­ forced hotelkeepers to put running water looked by the Department of Public Work', into bedrooms. 'fhat statement is not which estimates that will be expended conect. Never at any stage was I ordered in the current year, than the to put running water into bedrooms in my amount of £433,000 spent financial yeaT. hotel. It is all right for the Minister to It does not indicate that there is bmning tell us these stories. desire on the part of this to fall The Secretary for Health and Home in with the request of the tvm Prime Ministers, Affairs: You put the owner of the property Mr. Menzies and Mr. Fadden, when they lec1 out of the house with a gun. their respective Commonwealth Governments recently; anc1 the same call that has gone out Mr. BARNES: The hon. gentleman's to the country by the present Prime Minister, Police Department could not take action Mr. Curtin. against me for doing it, because I did it rcientifically. Why skite about it~ The law The Treasurer: The Queensland Govern­ ia as you make it. The licensing commis­ ment have not exceeded the amount allotted. sions in NevY South \Vales anc1 Victoria have to them by the Loan Council. done wonderful things. Are we so The CHAIRMAN: Order! I cannot see 1mckward in Queensland we cannot c1o that the hon. member is in OTder in discus­ these things W After all, our Commission was modelled on the Victorian or New South sing ''Buildings'' on this vote, If he will Wales commissions. turn to page 116 of the Estimates he will there find reference to State school buildings, The Secretary for Health and Home Government hospital buildings, and asylums Affairs: No. in the Loan Fund Account. Hence, those Mr. BARNES: More or less. items cannot be c1ebatec1 on revenue expendi­ ture. (Time expired.) Mr. MAHER: Mr. Gair, I understood last Vote (Licensing Commission) agreed to. year your predecessor in office ruled that hon. members would be in order in discussing Trust DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS. Funds, Loan Funds, and Tevenue expenditure CHIEF OFFICE. on the vote for the Chief Office of each The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS department. (Hon. H. A. Bruce, The Tableland) (2.25 The CHAIRMAN: Order! That is quite p.m.) : I move- true, but at the beginning of Committee of " That £30,320 be granted for 'Depart- Supply this year I stated that on the Chief ment of Public W orks-Ohief Office.' '' Office vote for each department full discussion on the whole ramifications of the department The amount that is proposed to be appro· would be allowed and the discussion on the priated for the financial year 1941-42 is £4,488 more than the corresponding appro­ other votes would be strictly confined priation for 1940-41. This increase is clue to the operations of the sub-departments con­ mainly to provision foT £2,260 for pay-roll cerned. Votes included in the Trust and tax anc1 salary increases on account of the Special Funds or Loan Fund Estimates can­ not be discussed on the Revenue Estimates. recent rise in the ba~ic wage. Mr. MAliER: That is your ruling? Mr. MAHER (West Moreton) (2.26 p.m.): It is evident from the annual report of the The CHAIRMAN: Order! That was my department to Parliament that the department ruling at the commencement of the Com­ was engaged in considerable activities during mitte of Supply. the year, because almost £500,000 has been Mr. MAHER: It is rather difficult for us spent on the construction of public buildings. to follow these rulings. One year we have It is remarkable that in the second year of a ruling that the Committee of Supply is war so much money should be applied to the entitled to debate all the votes administered constructiol'l of buildings. Naturally, every by the Chief Office. Then a change in the district in the State wishes to get improved Chairmanship takes place and that ruling is public buildings, and representatives of the altered. different electorates are always under pres­ sure from groups of interested people to get The Secretary for Mines : There was a improved schools, court houses, police stations, special concession last year. 1124 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. MAHER: Why should not the same Would it not be a fair thing to appeal to the discussion be allowed this year as last year patriotism of the people in the different elec­ on the vote for Chief Office~ That is a toral divisions, asking them to refrain from sound principle. Why should the Committee making demands for public buildings at a be deprived of the right to discuss on the time when the money is so urgently needed Chief Office vote the operations of the whole for things that are essential; There is a department, including its administration of buoyancy of money circulation in the Depart­ the expenditure from revenue, Loan Fund, ment of Public Works, in common with every and Trust and Special l<~unds ~ other enterprise in the State, and the unem­ ployment problem is reduced to an insignifi­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! I cannot permit another discussion on my ruling in cant figure; therefore, this expenditure might well be curtailed. There is no evidence that this connection. It is true that last year it has happenetl dming the past year; on hon. members >vere permitted on the Chief the contrary, there is every indication-judg­ Office vote in Committee of Supply to deal with expenditure from Loan Fund and Trust ing from the report of the Department of and Special Fund Accounts, but that was by Public Works-that increased sums have been used for this purpose, which, I maintain, comes special arrangement. This year I have ruled within the Ecope of luxury undertakings at that it would not be permitted and that on a time >vhen the country is at war. \Vhich the Chief Office vote of each department hon. is better-to spend the revenue on buildings members would be allowed to discuso. fully or to spend some of it on munition works or the ramifications of that department, but on implements of >mr-all(l we do not know would be given an opportunity later on to how soon we might need them in our own discuss expenclihue from Loan Fund or country on a large scale-or to erect big Trust and Special l<'unds Accounts. I can­ public buildings? Essential things should not do that now. On this vote I can allow come first. Under normal conditions in times a discussion onlv of the administration and expenditure Revenue Account. of peace, it is pleasing to see new buildings fro~ going up of good architectural design, because Mr. }!AHER: Revenue is bound up with they are ornaments in our various towns and Loan Funds in respect of this particular cities, and their construction provides a vote. It is very difficult to divorce one from measure of employment for skilled men; but the other. \Ye have, for example, "Services, in days like t11ese it is time to curtail such public buildings,'' with specified headings expenditure in favour of that on more worthy showing the amount of money expended from objects. For example, when we were discus­ revenue and what is expended from loan. sing the Chief Office Vote of the Department The same applies to school buildings and of Public Lands, I urged the Minister to certain other buildings. For example, in allocate a greater sum of money from the 1940-41, £173,000 was expended from Revenue revenues of his department towarc1s the crea­ Account. Where does it begin and where tion of new wealth by advancing money to does it end~ That is a large sum of money. farmers and graziers \vith which they could I submit I ant entitled to discuss the whole improve theiT holdings and increase their question of buildings under that heading. carrying and productiye capacity, and thus It is all public works and it is very difficult increase the wealth of the country. The indeed to make such a fine distinction. Minister has not been able to get the money for the purpose. Four or five hunched thou­ The CHAIR}IAN: Order! The hon. sand pounds earmarked for such n purpose member will have an opportunity to discuss in a time of war, as well as in a time of such loan expenditure in the Estimates of peace, would give some permanent value to expenditure from Loan Fund Account. the State and he a benefit to the people of the State. The new wealth created-if we Mr. MAHER: The point I am making are at war for any lengthy period-would can be sufficiently developed under the enable us to prosecute the war more success­ revenue heading; therefore, I will apply fully, because the wealth we. hav.e won fr?m myself strictly to the revenue heading. For the soil could pay for our oblrgatwn to mam­ example, during the last five financial years tain the war effort; but you cannot finance we have the expenditure from revenue speci­ war on public buildings, and they m·e mighty fied in the report. In 1936-37, £201,000 was poor security to get far upon. expended, but in 1940-41 this was reduced to £173,000. Of course, as usual in these The CHAIRMAN : Order! I am afraid matters, the Government wish to spend as the hon. member has got away from the ques­ little revenue as possible so as to maintain a tion. He has not heeded my ruling. If the strong balance in their Revenue Account, and hon. member peruses a copy of the Estimates, the inclination is to expend the bulk of the he will sec this vote covers only the clerical expenditure on all public works from other and general branch, the accounts branch, the funds, but whether you deal with the aspect electrical and mechanical branch, and, as far of expenditure from revenue or from the as buildings are concerned, there are only two other funds, the same principle is involved. votes in the Department of Public \Vorks At a time when the country is at >var, there Estimates, namely, ''Services-Public Build­ should be a disposition on the part of the ings,'' which comprises rents for public offices, Government to spend a little less each year water rates, gas, sanitation, cleaning, watch­ on these non-essential things. After all, is ing, electric current an cl telephone rentals; it essential in the circumstances to spend and ''Buildings,'' which cover repairs, paint­ hundreds of thousands of pounds from reYemle ing, alterations, furniture, &c., for State or from any other source on public buildings r schools, technical colleges and high schools, Supply. [6 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1125 court houses and police buildings, Government when discussing the vote,; of the Chief Office hospitals and mental hospitals, and other for the departments already dealt with. There buildings. There is nothing in the Estimates is no reason for complaint, and I ask hem. of the Department of Public Works dealing members to adhere to my ruling. with the expenditure on buildings. lUr. MAHER: May I ask, Mr. Gair, if it Mr. ~IAHER: Of course, if that is so is regula'r for me discuss matters of policy there is really nothing that it is possible to of the Department of Public vVorks on the criticise or enlarge upon. The ruling cramps policy of operating their accounts? any cons! ructive critirism by the Opposition. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I will permit It requires them to deal with mechanical, clerical, and accountancy matters only. the hon. member to discuss the policy regard­ ing the operation of accounts. I think that The CHAIRMAN: Order! There was no is quite in order. complaint on my ruling in connection with the \'Otes on the other departments. ~Ir. MAHER: The policy is wrapped up in the point I have been making. I have Mr. ~IAHER: Not being a mechanic, a been saying that the policy of the department clerk, or an accountant, I am hamstringed. is wrong in these troublous days, and I seek I a'm like Mahomet 's coffin-suspended in in a friendly, constructive wa'y to suggest to midair-in view of your ruling, because there the Committee that too much money is being is not \'ery much left to talk on. This is expended by the department on non-essentials the Department of Public 'Works. What are a't a time when the State is required to devote the works¥ The works are mainly construction more money to the war effort. Every night and erection of public buildings. on the air one will hear appeals made by the leaders of the Federal Govemment and their The CHAIRlUAN: Order! As I have stated, the hou. member is not permitted to supporters for investment in loans, war-savings discuss loan expenditure on this Estimate. certificates, and for contributions to help the war effort. That being so, the policy of the Mr. MAHER: The position becomes Department of Public Works at a time like farcical. It is a matter of common sense. this is 'Wrong. If I cannot sa'y that under Where does the money come from involved in the Chief Cffice vote I have no chance of say­ these works? The greater part comes from ing it again. I think your ruling is correct, Loa'n Funds, but a substantial sum of revenue J\Ir. Gair, but on matters of policy I am is used. The two are linked, and if one can­ entitled to say that and to amplify it. l not discuss the merits of the expenditure on shall refrain from making reference to the the Chief Office vote, it is a farce to be particular funds involved. bothered with the Public Works Estimates at all, and the sooner the Standing Orders Com­ I desire to emphasise to the Committee, mittee meets and arranges for all votes to the Minister, and the Government that it is come under discussion on the Chief Office vote, wrong in policy for the Government t_o allo­ the better. It is common sense. cate so much money-a record sum th1s year as compared with the last two or three years On what you have just said to me, :\Ir. -for the erection of public buildings. It Gair, it is difficult to offer any sustained is neither a good nor an appropriate mode criticism of the depa'rtmeut, because we shoulr1 of expenditure 'When the country is in dire be Tllled out of order. need of expenditure of public funds on the things that are essential, on things that will The CHAIRMAN: Order! help in the only important work in this )Ir. ~IAHER: The ruling excludes any country to-dav the amplification and expan­ possibility of dealing with the main activities sion of our W'ar effort and the winning of of the department, because they are under the war. the Loan vot0~. But when we get to those These things transcend party politics alto­ votes, as revenue is also involved, it could be gether. They transcend the mere desire to ruled that because revenue is involved an hon. gain a few votes here or there. \Vhat does member who was speaking is out of order, a vote or two, or even a seat or two, matter since he should have discussed that matter on in times like this? What hon. member would the Revenue Estimates. It is all very bewil­ lose his seat if he told his electors that dering. because of the mgent need for spending The CHAIRMAN: Order! In reply to the monev on essential war works they must cur­ hon. member's statement a's regards my rul­ tail their demands for the launching of public ing, I would state that a similar ruling regard­ works in the electorate~ Of course, hon. ing discussion on the Estimates was given members opposite may say that at some time each year with the exception of last year, or other I endeavour to have certain public when a special anangement was made, dealing buildings erected in my electorate. No doubt, with discn'·sion of expenditure from Loan, I have, but at the same time we have to ask Trust, and Special Funds on the Chief Office onrselves in these days if we are expending vote. The ruling given by me at the com­ public funds in the right way. mencement of Committee of Supply this ses­ JUr. Jones: Some of your members sion is not new. It has been the practice for wanted to shift the prison this morning. years, with the exception of last year. When I gave my ruling this year hon. members on the Mr. MAHER: Every hon. member is Opposition benches thanked me for clarifying entitled to his opinion, and, so far as I am the position and took no exception to the concerned, I certainly would not spend one ruling. Nor did they take exception to it brass farthing on moving the prisons. I 1126 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

think that what the hon. member had in only by the colour of its political represen­ n1ind when he made that suggestion was that tative, then I say we have reached a sorry when peace returns that might be worthy of state of affairs in our public life. I should considerl!tion. Of course, in times of war, hate to think that that was so, and that any that would he an utterly wrong undertaking. Minister of the Crown or the Government I do submit that it is absolutely wrong to should lend themselves to a proposal of that erect in these times a bnilding such as the kind, or try to deny hon. members repr~­ one in course of construction at Anzac senting opposing political beliefs a fmr Square, the expenditure on which will be share of the public funds. I can only deal approximately £100,000. That building could with the evidence I have, and there is the well be done without until better times evidence in the report, if any hon. member return, and the same thing may be said of cares to investigate. many other works. I should be glad to hear what the Minister Another matter that is worthy of mention has to say in rebuttal of the suggestion. I is, that of 101 projects listed for the current have always found him very fair when I financial year I have been able to trace only have gone along to see him on any matter seven that will be carried out in electorates relating to my electorate, but at the ~a;ne represented by hon. members on this side of time here is the evidence that that cond1t1on the Committee. Ninety-four, all involving has arisen. It wants probing, and if it is so large sums of money, will be carried out in it wants rectifying, because whoever is electorates representAd by members of the responsible has not shown a sense of respon­ Government Party. This would seem to sug­ sibility to the Opposition and hon. members gest that there is some discrimination because who represent different groups sitting in there can be no doubt that there are important opposition to the Government Party. Every public works that are up for the Minister's man here is entitled to get a fair share for consideration and require attention in elec­ his electorate of whatever public funds are torates represented by hon members of the available. Unless the Minister can give a Opposition, yet only seven of 101 of these fair and reasonable explanation, the matter projects are situated in electorates repre­ will not rest because the Opposition must sented by hon. members in the Opposition of push it further and draw pointed attention this Parliament. to the fact that the Government are not discharging their responsibility of dealing That does not seem to be a fair distribu­ fairly with the electorates opposed t_o them tion of public funds. If the Government politically. 'l'here is a sense of . fan pl::y intend to spend this money it is only right in the minds of the general pubhc, and If that electorates represented by hon. members this can be demonstrated it will weigh with on this side of the Committee should be manv people throughout the State. If it fairly and impartially dealt with, but on can be clearly shown that the Gov~r;nme~t the evidence of the report of the depart­ are discriminating against the Opposition ~n ment that is not so. I do not know whether the expenditure of public funds the pu~hc that is the fault of the Governmmt or the will see that the fair thing is not bemg fault of the officers, but it is utterly wrong. done. 'rhe evidence contained in this report I know that in my own electorate m·any pro­ seems to lend colour to the suggestion. posals have been put forward and rejected because it was stated that the Co-ordinator­ Mr. JESSON (Kennedy) (2.55 p.m.) : I General of Public Works could not do the congratulate the Minister and the officers of work in the present year. It is significant the Department of Public Works on the that Government electorates have been able splendid job that they have done in rehabili­ to get the greater part of the money tating the building trade in Queensland over available and only seven electorates repre­ sented by hon. members on this side of the the past few years. In 1932 it was in a Committee have had a share in it. state of chaos, and no public buildings were being constructed. That is why there are so Gatton College is in my electorate and few tradesmen to cope with the progressive there is £19,000 to be expended there on programme of the Government to-day. There urgent work, not as the result of my repre­ were few apprentices to the building trade sentations. The Minister decided in favour of that work because it is urgently required, and the trade was in the doldrums. This and I suppose it was on the recommendation Government have carried out a progressive of the principal of the college. Many policy throughout the length and breadth of important projects in my electorate were the State. turned down, and I think other hon. mem­ I propose to nail that remark by the bers on this side can say the same thing. ex-leader of the Opposition about alleged In the distribution of the funds available discrimination in public expenditure, because it seems that GoYernment hon. m'embers are I know it is not a right and proper one and getting the lion's share. I do not think that it is likely to creatG enmity between t]le is fair, and I protest against it. I do not electorates by setting country against city think that public funds should be gathered and people against people. It will create a in one political bowl, giving point to the false impression in the minds of the people argument used at election time that "If you who, unfortunately, are represented by the join us you will get favours showered upon hon. members sitting in opposition. your electorate.'' There is a suggestion of corruption in a proposition of that kind. If Mr. Yeates: Did you say "unfortu­ it is stated that an electorate can get benefits nately"~ Supply. [6 NOVEMBER.) Supply. 1127

1Ur. JESSON: Of course I did. Hon. member for West Moreton. Look at the members opposite are too slow and too con­ beautiful main roads that have been built cerned about their own affairs to get in for throughout the length and breadth of it by their ''chop'' of the jobs that are going. this department. Why, you can drive all over the electoratB in all weathers. Let us com­ 3Ir. JUnher: Then it is a case of getting pare the condition of the roads in that elec­ in for your ' 'chop''~ torate with the roads in the Kennedy, Bowen, l\Ir. JESSON: If hon. members opposite or electorates. One cannot neglect the interests of their electorates move along most of their roads after 1 inch because they are so much concerned with of rain, to say nothing of passing along the their own private affairs why blame the by-roads. Department of Public Works~ If they are As I have stated previously, our friends on not able to look after the needs of their elec­ the Opposition benchBs are little Queen street torate'', why blame the department and why politicians. They do not know the extent blame anybody~ I should say that less of Queensland. This department has over a money has been spent in my eleotorate than number of years done a magnificent JOb with in any other, not because I have not striven the limited funds at its disposal. It has to get it, but because I am satisfied with a spent a few million pounds over a number fair thing. From 1932 to 1935, when our of years in constructing and improving Gov­ friend '' Artie'' was the hon. member for Ken­ ernment buildings. It has bJeen money well nedy, he had a little police station built at spent, for it has hBlped to circulate money Ingham 14 feet by 16 feet, where to-day 12 and thus benefit all industries and people in men are trying to do an immense job. all walks of lifB. Why should our children At 2.58 p.m., not be educated in bright and beautiful sur­ roundin()'s? Why should not the Government 1\Ir. BRASSINGTON (Fortitude Valley), build h;mes for school teachers in the bush~ onfl of the panel of Temporary Chairmen, Hon. members opposite would like to see relieved the Chairman in the chair. them camped in a tent under a tree like a 3Ir. Yeates: The hon. member for blackfellow or myall. Darling Downs, I presume you mean~ }fr. Yeates: Who would? lUr. JESSON: I beg your pardon! When Jir. JESSON: You would. I ask hon. I was rudely interrupted, 2\fr. Brassington, members opposite what they would cut out Ly the hon member for East Toowoomba, I of the Estimates? What work that has been was mentioning that my friend '' Artie'' had going on for years would they delete? The built a certain police station. He is my Government spread governmental works ,over friend and I can call him '' Artie'' if I the State as evenly as possible. There is like. He likes '' Artie,'' anyhow. I have one consolation with regard to the \Yynnum every right to call him '' Artie.'' What has State School, and that is that another such the hon. member for East Toowoomba to building cannot be built in that electorate, growl about~ From 1932 to 1935, when Mr. which will give the Government an oppor­ Fadden was the member for Kennedy, he tunity to build a similar one elsewhere. Most did nothing for the district. He was just of the talk of hon. members opposite is so like the other hon. members opposite-too much moonshine, such as has characterised tired to bother about doing anything for the their discussion of all matters in this Chamber electorate. The whole electorate of Kennedy this session. It has been discussion of small was in a state of disrepair from one end matters and more in the nature of pin­ to the other, and if anybody wanted any­ pricking than debate of public questions. I thing done Mr. Fadden was too busy look­ need only illustrate that fact by recalling the ing after his own business in the Bank of rliscussion initiater1 by the hon. member for New South vV ales buildings to bother about \Vest Moreton about an allowance to kanakas little bits of country schools. Of course, all who were brought here 40 or 50 years ago. the disrepair could not be cleared away at once, but gradually the electorate is being The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! built up. I would ask the hon. member to revert to the Let me make a eomparison between a place vote under consideration. 1,000 miles away from the centre of educa­ Mr. JESSON: I might talk about the tion, the University, high schools, and tech­ need of builaing schools for them, but I nical colleges, and another place 12 miles would not do so. I am leading up to the avvay. The latter, of course, is Wynnum. point I aesire to make. The arguments advanced by the hon. member for West More­ l\'Ir. Dart: Are you jealous? ton were very paltry. He knows that many l\'Ir. JESSON: Of course I am jealous. hundreds of pounds have been expended on I am very annoyed about it-to think that works in his electorate as well as in elec­ the:,- should spend £32,000 on a school in an torates of ,other hon. members on his side of electorate represented by the hon. member. the Committee. It is the thorn in my sidB T have protBsted against it and I shall con­ that hon. members opposite can get work tinue to protest until I get a £32,000 school done in their electorates and I cannot. I am in my electorate. What have hon. members beginning to wonder what is the reason. I opposite to growl about? What has the am quite satisfied, though, that the MinistBr ex-leader of the Opposition to say about the in his reply will scatter the arguments of Marburg school? Look at the money that the hon. member for West Moreton to the has been spent in the electorate of the hon. four winds of IT en.ven. ll28 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

~lr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) (3.4 money available for public works in order to p.m.) : If ever there was a little Queen street reviYe it. During the iirst year our efforts politician then it is the hon. member for were not very successful, except that there Kennedy. He has a business right here, and was a large amount of building by the I suppose he is giving it most of his atten­ Government, but in the second year private tion rather than attending to the wants of employers and contractors regained coniidence, his electorate. I am trusting to the Minister and the result was that the building trade to see to it that the Trust Funds votes of his was revived. department come up for consideration. I It should not be necessary to enumerate know it will be said, "It will depend on all the activities associated 'with the build­ how long you speak." We shall do the best ing trade. As an instance, however, I remind we can to reach that vote, and I feel sure hon. members that the building trade gives that the Minister will do his best to enable employment to men in such secondary indus­ us to discuss the Trust Funds votes later on. tries as those producing galvanised iron and I shall then have something to say about nails. Employment is given, also, to the men matters that cannot be dealt with on this in the bush-cutting clown the timber-as vote. There are not many headings under well as to carpenters, painters, and others. this vote, and that of necessity will restrict The effect continues for a considerable time. the discussion. I do not profess to know all At that time, as Secretary for Public Works, tlw details of the numbers employed-that is I travelled by car approximately 25,000 not my job-but I hope the Minister and miles a year in connection with main roads, the Government are seeing to it that these and so I became acquainted with much of offices are not overmanned. I am not saying the State. I also made it a practice to visit they are. I hope the Government will see schools in my electorate. Of course, since that the expenditure is not over the odds. I have been Secretary for Public Instruction, I wish to say a few words about repairs. I I have visited many schools in the metro­ like to treat everyone as I iincl them-I have politan area and probably have a wider know­ made that a rule-and if I have any com­ ledge than any of the public servants con­ plaint I speak of it. I went to see the nected with the various departments. Prior Minister about the long-felt want of a fence to the outbreak of war, Mr. Kemp, Co­ round the East school in my electorate. I ordinator-General of Public Works, and I believe in good school buildings where school discussed the subject of building, and the buildings are necessary, and if it is likely principle laid clown was that, irrespective the population in that centre will continue of electorates, if a building in any part of to keep the school full. There are approxi­ the State was in a very bad state of dis­ mately 900 to 1,000 children in this school,. repair that was the iirst work to be under­ and I hope there will be 1,200 or 1,300 there taken. If a very old building required in the next generation. The playground at replacement, the principle was to erect a new this school was very dusty-not that Too­ one. EYerv hon. member knows well that woomba is a dusty town, but where 1,000 or hunclredR of thousands of pounds were spent 1,100 children are romping about it soon gets on buildings in various parts of the State dusty-and I asked the Minister to have it -mnn:v of which cost anything from £25,000 gravelled or bitumened, and arrangements to £32,000 each. The hon. member for East have been made for that to be done right Toowoomba has mentioned a few small items away. An additional room is to be pnt on he got recently but made no mention of a the Harlaxton school. At Rangeview the very large and palatial school building tanks haye been put in order as a result of erected there. It was necessary. Since then, my request, and several rooms haYe been it has not been necessary to erect a building added to the school at Harristown. All is in his electorate. The question whether an going well in that connection. I want to be electorate is represented by a Labour 01· anti­ quite fair. Labour hon. member does not enter into the matter. It never has. The Secretary for Public Works: You knew I had the iigures in any case, so it was I admit quite frankly that, as Secretary as well to admit it. for Public Works, I have no say in the co-ordination scheme of the Commonwealth Mr. YEATES: It was quite satisfactory Government in regard to buildings that are as far as I was concerned. We always give to be erected in Queensland. The Co­ our co-operation to the Government, and I ordinator-General of Public \Yorks in Queens­ hope the Trust Funds will come up for dis­ land confers with me and the heads of the mwsion this session. various departments, but he then has to refer The SECRETARY :FOR PUBLIC WORKS the matter to the Federal Co-ordinator­ (Hon. H. A. Bruce, The Tableland) (3.5 General, Sir Harry Brown, who has no know­ p.m.) : I think we should look at this ledge whatever of Queensland. Sir Harry question in a reasonable light. The hon. Brown may be an excellent man, he may be member for West Moreton opened the debate quite a capable busine"s man, but all and criticised what he termed unnecessary or Southerners think that when they pay a visit unwarranted expenditure. When the Labour to Brisbane they know Queensland. Party assumed office in 1932 the building The hon. member for West Moreton was industry was virtually dead. I was appointed entirely incorrect, so far as expenditure is Secretary for Public Works, and the Premier, concerned. Including main roads and public who was then also Treasurer, decided that it works, 75 per cent. of the money expended would be wise to make a large amount of to-day is being spent in the south-western Supply. [6 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1129 districts of Queensland-south of Brisbane. ence in the erection of public buildings. That is done through the co-ordinated system, Hecently the hon. member for Oxley had the over which I haYe no control. Certain moneys pleasure of opening a building costing are allocated and the Federal Co-ordinator­ £10,587 in his electorate. In the hon. mem­ General decides what building is to be carried ber for West Moreton 's electorate, at Gatton out and the amount to be spent on it. College alone, £19,838 was expended. At Personally, I think the system is a failure, the Landsborough police station we expended so far as the welfare of the State is con­ £1,400. We erected a new court house at cerned. It is bound up with the Loan Council Murgon at a cost of £1,651. \Ve expended and the Commonwealth Government haYe a £5,042 on the Nambour school, and the say. They appoint their Co-ordinator­ Wynnum school that is now in course of con­ General and they allocate money through the struction will cost £30,362. Quoting those Loan Council. As Secretary for Public figures puts me in a rather awkward position Works, I have not the right to decide a build­ in that instead of giying hon. members oppo· ing shall be erected. As I have said, I put site an opportunity of saying that members the case before our own Co-ordinator-General. of the Labour Party received preference it but he has to put it before the Federal provides evidence upon which members of Co-ordinator-General. the Labour Party can say that they have not had the consideration that has been shown The hon. member for West Moreton has to hon. members opposite. mentioned the question of essential expendi­ ture. The very first thing that I put clown One recommendation I made to the as essential expenditure was the extension of Co-ordinator-General as being one of the all technical colleges, to help the war effort. most essential works, one requiring imme­ We have 250 men ready to-day to go into diate attention, was the erection of a new war work, but there are no positions for school in Fortitude Valley. The present them to fill. If those 250 men went out of' school building is over 60 years old, it is the technical colleges to-morrow, I could put situated alongside the railway line, and the another 250 in and train them for the war building generally is totally unsuited for the effort. \Ve have already made 250 men avail­ education of our youngsters in these modern able through the technical colleges. The first times. 'l'he children of Fo'l'titude Valley expenditure I recommended-and it was should have had their school before those approved by the Federal Co-ordinator-General of either Yeronga or Wynnum. My attitude -was the building of technical colleges. is and always will be that so long as I have Some of these are associated with high the money to spend I shall recommend the schools, but the expenditure on technical erection of buildings for the accommodation colleges in 1940-41, to help the war effort, of our school children, war or no war. amounted to £29,837. \Vhether we win the war or lose it, our youngsters must bp educated, and educated The hon. mem'ber for West Moreton also under decent conditions. said that money should be made available to help the primary producer. I want to say Mr. Massey: But this is out of Loan here to-day that there are thousands of Funds. pounds' worth of primary products that can­ not be harvested to-day. There are crops The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: of potatoes and other things essential to the I do not care what fund is used. I am welfare of the people that cannot be har­ answering argnments put forward by hon. members opposite, and I am· endeavouring to vested to-day because the primary producers do so in a logical and sensible manner. The cannot get the labour to harvest them. school I have mentioned is perhaps in the Mr. Maher: Yet we are paying away worst condition possible for the education £600,000 a year in rations. of our children in Brisbane to-day. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: ~Ir. Sparkes: I will take you up my way. The point is that they cannot get the labour. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. member's electorate has been pretty The hon. gentleman will not be in order in well treated. The hon. member for Kennedy discussing that subject now. was quite right in his remarks about the police station at Ingham, because the position The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: there requires attention. There are a number The hon. member for vV est Moreton raised of other places where buildings of various the question. kinds are required for the housing of public The TE~IPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! servants. I ask the Minister to keep to the vote under lUr. Plunkett: Not forgetting Southport. discussion. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: The Southport school is in good order. It is If hon. members of the Opposition are a good wooden building that can safely be allowed to raise questions without the Minis­ used for the next 10 years, or at least during ter's being able to reply then we shall get the war period. Under normal conditions I into a very peculiar position. The hon. should say that the hon. member ought to member for West Moreton did raise that have a new brick school at Southport,. but question. under present conditions there is ample accom­ Another contention he made was that modation at the school, and it is one that will members of the Labour Party enjoy prefer- stand for another 10 or 15 years. In essence, ll30 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. what I should point out is that the expendi­ will remain. That policy is a wrong one. We ture by the department was justified. The shall have to get back to common sense, by most essential expenditure was in the building constructing buildings, and particularly of technical colleges. That is a war effort. wooden ones, from consolidated revenue. It The second largest expenditure was on schools, appears to be the policy of this Government because schools are essential, war or no war. to pull down a building that requires exten­ All the money has been well and wisely spent. sive repairs and construct a new one, and As a matter of fact, in the vote for this year to do it out of Loan Funds, too. That is a some of the money is a!locater1 to A.R.P. wrong policy, and the country is the poorer work. If we were attacked and had to defend for it. I hope that policy will be reviewed, Dmselves the whole of the money in these bec-ause it is being used to balance the Estimates would be used for the defence of Budget. the people of Queensland. I can assure hon. Tile Secretary for ~lines: Is that what members that the total expenditure from happened at Yeronga ~ these votes on buildings >''ill be about £93,497, after various allocations have been taken out Mr. NliUMO: The Secretary for Mines of them. seems to be a bit sore about Yeronga. He knows very well that the Yeronga school was Mr. NUfMO (Oxley) (3.23 p.m.): I note urgently required. As he has raised the that the vote for the Chief Office this year matter, perhaps it is well that I should deal is about £5,000 in excess of the appropriation with it now. The new Y eronga sch'Ool for last year, and I see under the heading of replaced a building that had been up for 70 ' ' Contingencies ' ' i terns such as traveiling years, one that was built out of consolidated expenses, fares, freights, postage, printing, revenue and not Loan Funds. That demon­ stationery, incidentals, which account for strates the soundness of my arguments and approximately £3,000 of the £5,000. I the soundness of the policy pursued by suppose the Minister can explain that. It former Governments in constructing build­ may be that certain expenses have to be mot. ings out of consolidated revenue. In discussing this vote I should like to The Secretary for Public Works: And it deal with matters of policy generally. The lasted for 70 years. report of ihe Department of Public WOTks Mr. NilUMO: And does the Minister not deals with the ramifications of the office,, and know that it was in a very bad state~ The I should like to refer to the change of policy Minister knows that it was in a very bad in the spending of money that has taken state. However, the ne>Y school is a beau­ place. Before the advent to power of the tiful building-in fact one of the finest Labour Party in Queensland all buildings, school buildings of its size I have seen any­ particularly wooden buildings, were con­ where in Australia. The bricks and the structed from revenue and not from Loan material generally compare more than Fund Account. It seems to me that this was favourably with what I ha,·e seen in any the right policy to follow, because it seems other part of Australia. The lmilding wrong to put up a building to last only the was erected, but it was only half finished. lifetime of one person and leave the debt I take it that when a man lays out a pro­ incurred for posterity to pay. Yet we find perty, especially one including a new build­ that the reverse now seems to be the settled ing, the work is not finished until there is a policy. I find that before the Labour regime suitable fence round it and the whole of the t}1e cost of buildings in the State was £525,000 ground is left in apple-pie order. At the trom revenue and £193,000 from Loan Fund North Ipswich School, which is in the Trea­ Account. In other words, only 27 per cent. surer's electorate, every corner of the pro­ of the buildings were constructed from Loan perty was put in perfect order. The whole Fnnds. property was laid down with tennis conrts But when the Labour Government were ani! everything was complete. It is a shame returned to power, the policy was altered and a disgrace that the old playshed attached and from 1915 to 19=::9 a sum of £2,475,000 to the original school erected at Yeronga 70 was spent from Loan Funds and only years ago is still in use within a few yards £1,476,000, or approximately half the pre­ of the beautiful new school building. This vious proportion, from consolidated revenue. building should be removed. 'l'he old school When the present Government were returned building has all its windows shuttered and to power in 1932 the policy was further corners are broken off the boards. It also altered, and the present Government plunged shonld be demolished, the grounds levelled into an orgy of extravagance in the construc­ off, and a fence erected to complete the work. tion of buildings from Loan Funds. For It ·would then be one of the gems turned out instance, in 1932 the average expenditure on b;v the department. Until that work is com­ buildings from revenue. was only £54,000, pleteil the new school building will remain but from Loan Funds 1t was £238,000, and uncompleted. last year it was £76,000 from revenue, and I do not think the State is getting full £530,000 from Loan Funds. I think that value for the money expended on many of indicates that the Government are going the our public buildings. Some are too costly. pace, and that they are putting up quite a I cannot agree with the policy of the depart­ number of buildings out of Loan Funds that ment in regard to such buildings as the will last for only 30 to 40 years. The build­ Dental Hospital. We were informed that it ings will have to be condemned in 40 years' would c-ost £100,000, and we now find that time and new ones erected to take their it is estimated to cost £161,000. Plans and places, while the debt on the old buildings specifications should be prepared for all Supply. [6 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1131 buildings to be erected by the Government, the men who are in those schools went out public tenders called, and the building erected he could replace them with a similar number. as quickly as possible. Work on Govern­ ment buildings should not be protracted, as The TEMPORARY CHAIRlUAN: Order! at the new University, where the work has This vote deals with Public Works. been going on for years. We do not know ~Ir. NIMMO: The matter was raised by when this building will be finished, what will the },finister and I was just referring to it be its final cost, and what we shall have to in passing. The only thing is they were not pay for it. If a private person decides to quite trained enough for the purposes of erect a building, he has plans and specifica­ private trade. tions prepared and tenders called. Even if the Secretary for Mines was erecting a The Secretary for Public Works: They home for himself, he would have it erected are quite capable to-day, and have been for by contract. Persons erecting workers' dwel­ months. lings or workers' homes would not for one moment dream of having those buildings Mr. NIM~IO: Again I say that: I am erected by day labour, as they require the delighted with the Yeronga State school and best value for their money and a knowledge I hope the Minister will see the job is com­ beforehand of what the work will cost. If pleted in a very short period. the department reverted to that policy in connection with Government buildings-it is Mr. RIORDAN (Bowen) (3.37 p.m.): It a policy that every hon. member opposite is very amusing to hear hon. members of the adopts in his own work-we should save Opposition saying that Government mem­ the people a la1·ge sum of money. In addition, bE'rs get the greatest expenditure of public we should be able to erect more buildings funds in their electorates. I am one of those with the money saved, and have them occupied who have a grudge about the expenditure in more quickly. my electorate. I agree to a great extent to ''hat the Minister has said about the powers I desire to draw attention to the annual of the Co-ordinator-General. I believe that report of the department, in which it is dis­ ll1r. Kemp-and I have said this previously closed that the expenditure on State school -is an excellent officer-in fact, the premier buildings for the last financial year was public servant of the State-but he is over­ £37,648 from revenue and £111,971 from Loan worked. The present system of having to Fund Account. We also find that the expen­ apply to the Commonwealth Co-ordinator­ diture on technical colleges and high schools General before work can be carried out is for the same period was £2',314 from revenue a tragedy in some respects for States such and £36,004 from Loan Fund Ac-count. The as Queensland and the smaller States of the expenditure on technical colleges is very Commonwealth. Quite recently, we found necessary because the object is to provide that £5,000,000 was cut off the proposed the facilities the Minister spoke about, and expenditure by Sir Harry Brown. give opportunities to many of our boys who previously did not have a trade. It is only I am not at all satisfied with the work just to mention that the Commonwealth undertaken in mv own electorate. I refer Government contribute very largely by pro­ particularly to schools. viding the teachers to enable this oppor­ Mr. Yeates: I will always help the hun. tunity to be given. member on that point. The Secretary for Public Works: We lUr. RIORDAN: I am pleased to have the provide the teaching staff and they pay the help of the hon. member for East Too­ wages. woomba. More cmsideration should be given Mr. NIMMO: They also pay certain costs to the country areas than has been given up for lathes er anything like that. I have no to the present. It is all very well to remark quarrel with that. I support the erection of on the beautiful school erected at Yeronga any building for technical training, because -I am not jealous about a school built there I think it is an excellent thing. Under the or anywhere else where one is necessary-but heading of ''Court Houses and Police Build­ country areas should receive equitable treat­ ings,'' we find £14,000 provided from revenue ment. I know that more work could be and £63,000 from loan, and the buildings will undertaken in country areas if funds were be worn out before we pay the loans off. available, but there is a tendency for public­ works officials to disregard country areas­ l~nder the heading of ''Government Hos­ pitals," £7,000 is provided from revenue and particularly as far as school buildings are £29,000 from loan, and under the heading, concerned-because the matter has not been ''Other Buildings' '-whatever that means­ brought forcibly enough under their notice. £H,OOO is provided from revenue and The Home Hill school in my electorate is a £132,967 from loan. very large one and for the last six years I haYe been trying to get renovations made That is the only criticism I have to make to it to give better lighting and air space of the department, which, I believe, has done for the children. good work. The policy regarding big build­ ings should be altered and tenders should I have heard the same old song for five be called and they should be erected as years-that it would be deferred to next year, expeditiously and economically as possible. or that it would be marked for approval or otherwise next year-but next year the same I think we should extend our activities in tl:ing happens. For five years that matter technical training. The Minister said that if has been brought under the notice of the 1132 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Department of Public Works by me through were prosperous some of the residents were the Department of Public Instruction; and I able to send their children away to school, nm still waiting for a reply. In fact, I am but many workers or struggling farmers were not now waiting for it; I am anticipating it. at a disadvantage. They had to make manY Other country schools are badly in need sacrifices to allow them to do so. Every of attention. There are schools that are parent tries to give his children the best virtually on the point of falling down. 'l'he education possible, especially when he had building at Mount Marlow is in that condi­ little education himself. I have been told tion. It is totally inadequate for the number from time to time that the type of school I of children attending it. Such schools should want is not warranted in that area. Two be given some attention by this department. or three years ago I was informed that plans It is all very well to talk of the large schools \Yere being prepared and that surveys had being erected in the cities where they come been made. The Co-ordinator-General or under the eye of many people but some con­ some other person then decided that it was sideration must be given to tl{e wants of the not possible to have a "high-top" school people who are making it possible for the thre and that a primary school only was large cities to exist. If we cannot give high warranted. There are places in Queensland schools or universities to the children of the less entitled to a ''high-top'' school than people who are producing the wealth of the the Proserpine area. Now, after three or country we should at least give them some four years, I am informed that the Co-ordina­ of the decencies and amenities of life. tor-General regrets that he cannot approve of it. He should have been told of the neces­ We hear of school buildings that have been sity of showing some appreciation to the standing for 70 years. There are several people in that area, amongst whom are sugar­ school buildings in my particular area that farmers, who this year will not be able to have been standing for 50 years or 60 years. send their children away to school because of They consist of little old shacks that the the tragic circumstances that have overtaken Brisbane City Council would not allow to be thEm. erected in city areas, even for the housing of fowls. In addition to adwrse seasons the cane­ grower is debarred by the diflieult shipping lUr. J'iiimmo: Good men and women have position from sending his sugar oYcrseas, with come out of these schools. the result that his earnings are reduced and there is less likelihood of his being able to Mr. RIORDAN: That. is so, but the send his children to boarding-schools. That buildings are not in keeping with the times. fact should haYe been brought under the notice 'l'he hon. gentleman should have a look at some of the Co-ordinator-General just as forcibly of the school buildings in some country as anything else. areas; he would realise the need for improve­ ;m'nt. I am not begrudging anything done I have found that if one has been hammer­ m the way of education or the building of ing at a project for some time and one has schoo~s, but am. fighting for something to be been sidestepped they now adopt the con­ done m the particular cases I have mentioned. venient method of saying that the Co­ I am pointing out that all the facts should ordina'tor-General is not satisfied that the he brought under the notice of the Co-ordina­ \York should be undertaken. I y, as told tor-General. We ha,-e heard the Minister say recently through another department that that he is not in the position to decide what Bowen was not the only electorate in this school should be erected. That state of State. I realise that, but I do say that it is the affairs should be altered. There are factors tenth biggest electorate in Queensland, ancl other than whether the money should be it is not my fault that Bowen has missed any­ spent . that should be brought before the thing that "is going or that it has not recei\·ed Co-ordmator-General. I refer to the economic anything to which it is entitled. I am of the position of some of the country districts. opinion that the Bowen electorate has been neglected, not only by the Department of For some years I have been drawing the Public Works, hut also by the Main Roads attention of the Department of Public Commission, and I am voicing my protest this Instruction to the necessity of makinrr Proser­ [ifternoon because I firmly belieYe that it pine school a '' high-top'; school so "that the has lJeen treated unfairly. children of that area can r~ceive their secondary education there instead of having IUr. BRAND (Isis) (3.35 p.m.): I think to travel to Charters Towers or we all agree that the Department of Public some hundreds of miles away but the nearest towns in which there are boarding schools. Works, which is one of the most important This school has an average attendance of of our State departments, should realise that approximately 300. moneys that are to be spent through it should be expended in those areas that do not enjoy The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! the benefits that accrue from pa"I·ticipation in ~Ir. RIORDAN: I am referring to the munition work. The country towns are being necessity for extending the Proserpine school treated in a "raw" manner so far as muni­ and making it a ''high-top'' institution. I tion work is concerned. Because they have am pointing out how necessary that is the facilities aYailable, the larger cities are because there is not sufficient space to enable enjoying the benefits of the expenditure of it to used as a ''high-top'' school in its almost the whole of the defence moneys that present condition. I have been agitating for are ma'de available to this State. The coun­ this for three or four years. When times try towns should be compensated for this loss Supply. [6 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1133 of e>:penditure, and for the loss they sustained the building of a church in my electorate. by the fact that a large number of their He said- young men are enlisting in the defence forces, '' Take, for instance, the question of by being given a greater share in the public­ building materials. The cost of these is works programme o£ the State. I believe enormously increased hy freight charges that the Department of Public Works is the which many belieye to be excessive, and in only Government instrumentality that can give some cases manufacturers refuse to supply these areas any relief. such materials except on penalising condi­ The hon. member who has just resumed his tions. Of this, we have an apt example in seat has pointed out the disabilities suffered the matter of the supply of bricks for this in one country electorate. Those disabilities new church. are common to all rural areas. Of course, we ''I understa1ld that the architect specified must not forget that the :Minister has not that the common bricks were to be obtained the money to accede to every request made by locally in order to assist local industry, while every connh·y area for public works, although the face bricks were to he obtained in Bris­ T :1m sure th:-~'t he would be h:-~ppy to do so if bane, where the facilities for manufacturing it \Yas available. His department must be them are better. The freights saved by experiencing the same difficulty as that which getting the common bricks here would be confronts every other building contractor or very considerable. But the Brisbane manu­ building company. It is found that the diffi­ facturers point blank refused to supply face culty of getting materials is becoming greater bricks unless they got the whole order for and greater. Why timber, bricks, and similar both cla'sses of bricks. I regard it as a materials should soar to high prices is one of scandal that no Government should tolerate, the things I cannot understand. After all, that combines should he able to act in such wage costs have not gone up to any great an arbitrary fashion against the interests extent, but we find that materials on which of any section of the citizens, but particu­ we largely depend for our building have gone larly against the interests of the country up in price. We all realise that the depart­ people.'' ment, being perhaps the largest builder in the State, must be concerned a't this fact. That is something with which we can all I should like to know if the :\finister has an:v agree. It is an excellent thing to know influence or power to control it. I should that the people associated with that church like him to say whether he has found that were willing to help local industry, particu­ there is a timber ring or a brick ring, and larly in this time of >Var when it is essential whether it is difficult to get commodities on in the national interests that all industries an ordinarv business basis. I shoulr1 like him should be eneouraged. However, because to tell us 'whether penalising conditions are they did that, and because they wanted to attachrcl to acceptances of ord0rs to the busi­ saye the heavy freight on bricks from Bris­ ness community for the building trades. I bane, the Brisbane brick interests refused to ]mow that it is impossible in conntTy districts sell them the face bricks that were necessary to-da'y to get certain commodities except under for the construction of the church. penalising conditions. and if they apply to a department of State, I think the Minister's These are examples of the disabilities influence should be exercised in the direction country people have to face, and they should of correcting the eYil. not be tolerated either in the building indus­ try or any other. I know it has been said Only recently I was infoTJned hy a man from time to time that there should not be as,ociated with building in this State in a a State brick works, and I have agreed with yery large way that these conditions actually that statement, but the people who manu­ apply. I have been told tha't business firms facture bricks have an obligation to the in this city are not permitted to sell certain people to supply the building tmde with articles except on penalising conditions. His these commodities on n·asonable conditions, Grace Archbishop Duhig, referring to the build­ not the penalising conditions that they ing of a church in my electorate, recently impose to-day. These unfair practices complained bitterly that those who control should be stamped out, and the people in the big brick industry in this State will not the country should be able to enjoy the same sell to country districts except under penalis­ advantages as are available to the people ing conditions. I think the Government should in the cities. not permit these things to exist in this com­ I realise that the Minister has an impor­ munity when building means so much to tant job in the construction of public build­ Queensland. I think it has been rightly stated ings, but being the largest builder in the by the 1finister during the discussion on his State he should see that fair dealing exists Estimates from time to time in recent years in the building trade. I believe that he will that building is the lifeblood of the country. stand up to these things, and that he will We wa·nt to know if all these things associ­ try to put a stop to them. If we cannot get a fair deal for the people in the building ated with the building trade are fair and reasonable, and whether there is any exploita­ industry, legislation will have to be intro­ duced to make it compulsory for manufac­ tion, particularly in the direction I have turers to supply these commodities. Is it not stated. true that the brickmakers would not he able For the information of hon. members, I to make a success of their business if it were should like to quote the statement made by not for the building trade~ They owe a His Grace Archbishop Duhig in reference to duty to the building trade to treat it fairly. 1134 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

They are not doing that. It is "up to doing something that is just and reasonable. them'' to change their big-business tactics To-day, no city can complain, as it has tlle and treat the people fairly, espe~ially to-day advantages of large expenditure from the when we are proclaiming from the hilltops defence vote-particularly from the Army that we must move as one people, determined and Air Force camps-in addition to the to keep back an enemy that threatens our huge munition buildings that are being con­ very shores. ·what is the use of one section structed. These facts enable the cities to of the community's endeavouring to do that enjoy a greater prosperity than formerly, if another can say to the people in the whilst the smaller towns in the country are country, ''You m·ust deal with us or we will retrogressing. I ask that these phases of not give you the goods that we can supply rural economy receive consideration from the to you''~ These things belong to the people, department when it is arranging the works and they should be available to the people. programme.

The Attorney-General: Come over here. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS Mr. BRAND: The hon. gentleman says, (Hon. H. A. Bruce, The Tableland) ( 4.3 ''Come over here.'' I G!o not know why p.m.) : I want to reiterate a statement I he should say that. I have contended for a made earlier in the debate. The hon. mem­ a long time that these things should not be ber who has just resumed his seat asked me tolerated. to give more consideration to buildings in the The Attorney-General: Are you opposed country. I have no say as to where they to combines~ should be erected. Prior to the war, my "G nder Secretary received recommendations Mr. BRAND: I have always been opposed from various departments, and those recom­ to trusts, combines, and monopolies, and mendations were given effect to as the money that has always been a foremost plank in was made available. To-day, the position is the platform of the Country Party since its different. The various departments for whom inception. I always understood that it was I build forward their recommendations to one of the foremost planks in the platform the department. The Under Secretary and I of the Labour Party. (Opposition laughter.) study them and make a recommendation to I am sure that the Attorney-General will the Co-ordinator-General of Public Works, agree with me that this is one of the evils we Mr. J. R. Kemp. He, in turn, submits the should do away with. list of works to the Federal Co-ordinator­ General of Public Works, Sir Harry Brown, The Attorney-General: That is why I who, after the application of the pruning asked you to come over here. knife, submits them to the Federal Treasurer. }Ir. BRAND: I believe I can count on Mr. Brand: But he takes the recom­ the hon. gentleman's support, and, indeed, mendations of your officer. the support of the Secretary for Public Works, too, in connection with the matters The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: I have raised. They cut our recommendations to the bone. On this occasion, the first recommendation~ I know that there are manv calls from had to do with technical buildings. They the country areas of my electo1:ate upon the Department of Public Works. Possibly, the were approved of, and we constructed them. Department of Public Instruction is one No-one reD lises more than I do the nePd for cause of the great activity of this depart­ building in the country; but practically the ment in the country districts. ·we have a whole of our country proposals submitted to right to expect contil~ued activity from this the Federal Co-ordinator-General were branch of the service. Whether we are at brushed aside. Sir Harry Brown is a ver;· war or not, there are functions that must be capable man in his particular sphere. His discharged. \Ve have an obligation to see knowledge of Queensland, however, like that that these functions are continuous, so far of many other Federal men, is confined to as we are able to do so, without in any way Brisbane. I have told the story about the adverely affecting the great war effort we Federal representative who told me that we have undertaken. I believe the departmental could only train 12 fitters in Queensland. officers will give of their best in maintaining Mr. Brand: On that occasion you the many buildings that come under their knocked him over. supervision throughout the country, so tlmt, at the end of the war, they will be in first­ The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: class condition. That is one of our obliga­ I proved definitely that he did not know tions. Under this vote, we make provision what he 1Yas talking about. for the maintenance of those buildings. On this occasion, the available funds are I ask the Minister to give ample considera allocated for c~rtain purposes. The alloca­ tion-in fact, more than he has done in the tion for 1941-4:2 is £14,428 less than the past-to those districts and towns that are expenditure in 1940-41. In addition, the suffering, not because of any economic dis­ allocation for 1941-42 is, in effect, further ability but because the war has taken many reduced by the sum of £54,779, which has to young people from those centres. This would he set aside for hospital matemity works enable them to maintain the same economic not previously provided for in the votes for status during the war as prior to it. If this department. The expenditure authorised the Minister gives a little more considera­ on purchase of material in connection with tion to country districts, he will merely be the air-raid precaution work is £25,000. Suppl;y. [6 NoVEMBER.] Supply. 1135

At 4.7 p.m., One hon. member has asked if the Govern­ The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair. ment do not control prices. Many trades­ people talk of freedom of trade. We con­ The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: trol prices inasmuch as there is a Commis­ I think those things are right and proper. sioner of Prices, but he can take only the information as to cost of production that he The cany·forward, which means the corn· gets from the traders concerned. If he mitments on buildings in the course of erec· makes a drastic cut there is a cry that he tion during the previous year, for the last is interfering with private enterprise, and two years is seen in the following table:- that firms are not able to make a profit. 1940-41. 1941-42. Without belabouring the point I repeat that £ £ in the last couple of years the price quoted to us has been exactly the sanie irrespective Carry-forward 174,402 247,800 of where the timber came from. That shows New works 200,538 *112,200 there is a ring. *Includes £18,703 earmarked for hospital maternity works not previously provided from Another factor to be taken into considera­ the votes of this department. tion as regards high costs is this: at one Summarised, the position with respect to time the shortage of galvanised iron held up new works, omitting hospital maternity the building trade. Hon. members know works, is that whereas the provision for new that there is a high protective tariff on works in 1940-41 was £200,538, the amount galvanised iron, but the local manufacturers allocated for 1941-42 is £93,497. That has never invested enough capital to provide been fixed by the ~'cdeml Co-ordinator­ surplus stocks, and I have had to join with General. private companies in petitioning the Federal Mr. Brand: Every item? Government to have galvanised iron brought from Gn"at Britain to relieve the shortage The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: that occurred because there was not a suffi­ Every item. cient surplus supply to meet the requirements The hon. member also asked a very per­ of Queensland. I have never hesitated at tinent que'Ction about rings for the supply of any time to expose any attempt at profiteer­ materials to the Department of Public \Vorks ing by people supplying material to the as to the price of bricks. I had occasion department, and to summarise, I will say previously to point out that, in comparison that we are paying an excessive price for with the other Stntes, the manufacturers in bricks as compared with prices in other Queensland were able to make out a case States. We get the same quotes for timber because, although they have large quantities irrespective of where the job may be or of the finest clay in Australia, their machinery where the timber is cut, and we have had is obsolete and they have not spent much on shortages of galvanised iron, which has made improving it. The Government did cut down it necessary to have it brought from Great the price of bricks, without a doubt. There Britain and overseas. was, and is, a brick ring. There is also a timber ring. All our quotes for the last As to the complaint that public works few years, irrespectiYe of where the timber are being undertaken in country areas, even was to be delivered, were the same. \Vhen Western Australia cannot be compared with we called for a quote for a job in Cairns the Queensland. There is no State in "Which the man at Maryborough would quote the same population is scattered over such a wide price as the man at Cairns, and when we area as Queensland. It is essentially a wanted a quote for a job at Maryborough primary-producing State, and to supply the the man in Cairns would quote the same price amenities in the matter of buildings and as the man in Maryborough. Obviously, public works that are due to the people is they would make arrangements between them­ a very difficult problem. I can say quite ccelves to supply thre timber. The timber safely and I have said it previously in this people quote exactly the same price, irrespec­ Chamber, that if I had an additional tive of where the timber is required. £500,000 to expend annually, it would take me many years to catch up with the build­ Mr. Nicklin: A price landed on the job? ings and houses necessary to enable the public The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: service to carry on the work of government Yes. properly, such as schools, court houses, and so on. Hon. members nl'Ust realise that a large Mr. Luckins: Do not the Government part of "Western Australia is not inhabited control prices~ at all. On the other hand, there is scarcely JUr. Brand: As a big consumer do you a part of Queensland in which we have not not get any discount~ to provide some buildings. There are here no great areas that are not populated, and The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: this makes for greater difficulty in supply­ As a big buyer, probably we do but it does ing the requirements of the public service. not alter the fact that the same price is quoted irrespective of what the amount may The hon. member for Oxley said something be. The point is that this ring or trust about the increase in contingencies. \¥hen 1 enables them to quote the same price. It is moved this vote, I pointed out that this was immaterial whether we get 5 per cent. or 10 brought about by the pay·roll tax and child per cent. discount as compared with other endowment, both expenses that have to be buyers, the same price is quoted. borne by the department. 1136 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The hon. member for Oxley also referred to to-day. Any hon. member who cares to inYes­ the fact that we should erect wooden buildings tigato the position can Yerify that fact. 1 out of revenue because they lasted for only 40 agree with the hon. member for Bowcn that years, but later in his remarks, when referring Mr. Kemp is an overworked man, but that does to the new school in his electorate, he said that not explain the situation, because all matters the old wooden building had been there for involving the expenditure of large sums of 70 years. Ever since I have been Secretary money have first to be submitted to the for Public vVorks the Government's policy Federal Co-ordinator-General of Public ·works has been to erect new buildings out of loan s.nd then to the Federal Treasurer. moneys, and to pay for all repairs, painting, and replacements out of consolidated revenue. Mr. Luckins: Who has the final say? In fact, tha:t system has been in operation The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: for as long as I have been connected with Yes. The whole position is due to the war, politics. If a wooden building will last for and it must be realised that with a war 70 years-and I claim that by using well­ raging we have to meet conditions that do seasoned timber it will-that disposes of the not exist when there is no war. We shall hon. gentleman's argument that it should be find this not only in this direction, but in paid for out of consolidated revenue. many other directions, because we shall have While other hon. members have been expres­ to put up with things that we would. not sing appreciation of the expenditure that has tolerate under normal conditions. If we think been incurred by this department, and he we can go on with building operations in a himself has admitted that an excellent school normal way, we shall get a very rude shock has been erected in his electorate, the hon. indeed. I have no doubt whatever that our gentleman urged that we spend a great deal main job very shortly will be to defend more money on fences and on the school our shores and fight for the things we have grounds. I do not think that heavy expendi­ got. ture on such things is justified at the moment. Mr. Sparkes: I hope you are wrong. Another matter niised by the hon. member The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC WORKS: for Oxlev was the estimated and ultimate Everything points that way. We shall have costs of 'the Dental Hospital. He said that to do \Yithout many of the things we have that institution was estimated to cost £100,000. had in the past. The fact is that the Government intimated at that time that they were willing to spend Mr. nART (Wynnum) (4.2 p.m.): I have £] 00,000 on a Dental Hospital, the object listened very attentively to the Minister's being to erect a building that would meet the speech, and I think he has given a very requirements, not only of the people of Bris­ explicit explanation of the operations of his bane, but of people who might come in from department. I commend him upon the work outback areas for treatment. Those hon. mem­ he is doing, and I am sure that he is deserv­ bers who know Brisbane will ha\'e ncalised ing of credit from both sides of the Com­ that the Dental Hospital \Yas built over a mittee. tunnel through ·which the railway runs, and When dealing with the education of the a great deal of additional expenditure was children of this State, I do not think that necessarily incurred in strutting and setting we should adopt a parochial attitude, or raise the foundations over that tunnel, in protect­ party issues. We spend approximately ing the tunnel, and in making certain that £2,000,000 a year on the education of our the new building would be erected on adequate children, and we should be broadminded foundations. In addition to protecting the enough to give the question the impartial tunnel, we had to see to it that the founda­ consideration it deserves. I feel sure that tions went down far enough to make the job the l\finister has endeavoured to carry out one that would last for all time. the duties of his office in the best interests I hope the hon. member for Cxley does of all concerned. not think that merely by erecting the shell I was very disappointed to hear hon. mem­ we can provide a Dental Hospital. The fix­ bers on both sides of the Committee speaking tures and equipment it was essential to provide parochially, and raising the question of the in that building, in order to give an adequate city against the country, when the question and efficient service, meant the expenditure of that should be considered is that concerning an additional sum of from £23,000 to £25,000. the State as a whole. It has been said I sav that the work done at the Denta1 that Wynnum got a building c·osting about Hospital was necessary, that special circum­ £30,000. That is true, and I commend the stances arose to increase the cost, and that Minister for his wisdom in having that build­ there is no justification for any complaint ing erected. Let me turn now to the country about that work. districts. I find that a State high school and I object strongly to the statement made by intermediate school was erected at Cairns the hon. member for Bowen that if they-I costing £30,195. assume that by that he meant either my Tl1e Attorney-General: Do you know Under Secretary or myself-want to sidestep that Ca1ms is a city W it, a very convenient excuse is that the Co­ ordinator-General will not approve of it. That llr. nART: It is considered one of the statement is absolutely unfair to my Under outside country places so far as the discus­ Secretary, if the hon. member was referring sion this afternoon is concerned. It is an to him, or to me, if he was referring to me. important place. I have been there, and, as a I have explained that that is the system matter of fact, I lived there for a while, and Supply. [6 NovEMBER,] Supply. 1137

I say that the children of Cairns are as sound reasons for extending a school to give deserving of a good education as those in the children more air. Those repairs were the city of Brisbane. I nm not jnlous of very acceptable to the parents and children the spending of money in Cairns. in the district, and when I was invited by I go a little farther and iind that at Ather­ the school committee to open the new wing ton new Government offices were erected they told me that it was 45 years since the c·osting £15,847. The interpsts of the primary last repairs were done, and they expressed producers in and around Atherton have to be the hope that it would not be another 45 considered. At Ayr an additional wing to years before any more repairs were carried the State high school and intermediate school out. Of course, we must remember that was erected at a cost of £4,550. At CJharters many schools were sadly neglected by the Towers a new labour ward was erected at the Governments of the past, as is clearly evident hospital costing £1,394. At Cunnamulla from the fact that this school had not been additions to the State school and the instal­ repaired for 45 years. However, it has now lation of a sewerage system cost £5,412. I been repaired, and the children are enjoying think that those iigures are very convincing, the beneiit. Still, there is criticism of the and prove that it is not the city of Brisbane departm'ent for failing to carry out other that is getting all the attention. Places up repair work, which prompts me to suggest North and out West are getting their share that perhaps the present Treasurer is at of attention, and I support the action of fault in this respect. the Minister in the expenditure of that money The Treasurer: You do not know any­ in those districts. I congratulate the officers thing about it. of his department, because I feel sure that they are endeavouring to recommend for Mr. DART: I think the Treasurer had attention those plac·es that require urgent something to do with the Department of works. In the policy of the department the Public Instruction nnd the Department of urgent works receive the iirst consideration. Public Works at one time, and perhaps it is his fault that repairs were not carried The Minister has given a very logical out for 45 years. The Minister should not explanation of the position of the Co-ordi­ be condemned but eommended for the work nator-General of Public Works for Queens­ he is undertaking in attending to much­ land, Mr. Kemp, and the similar officer for needed repairs to schools that have been the Comn1onwealth, Sir Harry Brown, both neglected in the past. I do not know whom of whom have to consider building and other the cap fits but he must recognise that proposals on oohalf of the various Govern­ the responsibility of this neglect is his. ments. The Co-ordinator-General has not Anyhow, the responsibility of endeavouring ody forbidden the construction of certain to overtake the arrears of repairs is on the buildings, but he has also forbidden the present Minister. extension of the lighting system in the Bris­ bane area. I am satisfied that the Minister The Treasurer: Where is the inter­ and his officers are doing their best in the mediate school being built~ interests of the State as a whole. Mr. DART: In the memorial park It was said that a new school should have between Wynnum and Manly. been erected in Fortitude Valley b~fore the new intermediate school was built at Wyn­ The Treasurer: Who induced the people num, hut I cannot agree with that view. of Wynnum to give the memorial parkW While there may be 200 children attending Mr. DART: Government officials, with the Fortitude Valley school who are eligible my assistance. The Minister undoubtedly for a high school there are 2,000 children aided in getting the matter finalised and the attending three adjoining schools in the people of Wynnum appreciate his efforts Wynnum electorate, and of that number about very much. 600 will gravitate to the new high school when it is completed. The man engaged on the Mr. Jesson: You were not the member work is making excellent progress, he has a then. good team, and he is able to get a fair day's Mr. DART: I was the representative of work for a fair day's pay. I am intereste(l to Wynnum when negotiations were being con­ know from the Minister when the school is likely to be opened. ducted. Some schools in the Wynnum electorate have The Treasurer: When it is iinished. not had much-needed repairs made for years. Mr. DART: Then I should like to know I refer particularly to the school at Wynnum from the Minister when it is likely to be North,. which is in a very dilapidated state. finished, so that I can announce the fact I ask the Minister to give it his considera­ that perhaps the school will be opened in tion. It will also be necessary to build some the beginning of the new year. new schools, as the district is progressing and population is increasing. A new school is The Auditor-General in his repOTt says about £39,000 was spent on repairs to vari­ required at Lota. I hope the Minister will give that consideration, too. ous schools throughout the State. I am· pleased the Minister approved of the repairs The housing accommodation supplied to to the school at Eight-Mile Plains, which teachers in the past was not up to date. was becoming seriously overcrowded. I The Government have not done what they agree with him that the health of the should to supply teachers with suitable children is paramount and that there are accommodation, but I will give them credit. 1138 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply. for making them a rent allowance to enable them to get better accommodation. The Government, realising that they could not improve the accommodation for teachers, gave a rent allowance which to some extent solves the problem. The CHAIRMAN: Order! That question is not covered by this vote. Mr. DART: I will refer eo it again on another vote. There are many matters con­ nected with repairing of school buildings that I could refer to, but I will reserve my comments to a later vote. Progress reported. The House adjourned at 4.35 p.m.